We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, finding “clues” to Liz’s importance to the Alien Mythology and other relevant topics – and there are a lot of them! Shapeshifter and Qfanny have graciously agreed to set up a single link to the former threads that are available to read. You can find it at the following link http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology

The following is a summary (sorry it is so long!) of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I try to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled, however, not all theories are covered in-depth. Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance!

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that connection irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t let go of the connection, but after events in NY is willing to give their friendship another try, and that there is MORE to that connection as we have always assumed. Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions re: that connection have been answered in this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz – whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. After MITC, we now KNOW that LIZ HAS CHANGED (or is changing – maybe the change that FM said she had to have occur!) as a result of Max “bringing her back,” but Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply that something more is involved – but more on that later! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squads planet? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? But if so, why did she disappear in Wipeout?)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” a predecessor to Liz?
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.)
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her?
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Twilo? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story – she had heard this story foretold before? ;
· Could it just be Liz's advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the many theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special. I guess we will never know, unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones – anything is possible??) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?) – they obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were acquaintances and lab partners. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that are all human (according to Harding). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking an already – yet dormant – power within her? Ava’s reaction seems to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle? There seems to be more to it than that!

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins – are her parents her true birth parents or is she adopted like the Evans kids, does she have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race, why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble – and how this plays into the connection with Max and her new found “abilities/powers” (one of which appears to be astral projection? Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur? We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ people from long ago? How does the Granolith fit into this? We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? It is obviously of great importance – maybe the Holy Grail of V constellation? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time (apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way?). (So, many questions – still! … !)

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his “destiny” on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a human alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction – maybe she had “heard” the prophecy or Zan’s searching was tied to it somehow! Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the podsquad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are “human.” Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters? Though the Dupes do seem to have memories, at least Lonnie does, of the previous life, though we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time!) Are the visions Max’s alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history destined to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the secrets being kept by the podsters from one-another. We now know that Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself (Zan was killed through treachery on Twilo, then Zan-reborn was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no??

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons now. Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Now Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again.

The symbolism throughout the seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often. Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! There is a prominent picture of a Viking (?) Ship that is tied to a tale directly relevant to our star-crossed lovers and their trials. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. Then there is the dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. I don’t have time to get into the symbolism of the Dragon now, but will add something next time I update the Intro. There are lots of others! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent for that!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? Could it be Liz? (Though most accept that Tess/Ava were the “bride.”) And why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day.) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. (Zan and Ava didn’t seem to be working at producing off-spring.) Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts – why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection?) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the podsquad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!)

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, and connecting with Max to save his life in NY.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max ‘fall out of love with her’). She could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we found out is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment (who knows who to believe on this one??). Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” Max, and bring him into “balance”? Could she possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing, and how the visions play into the powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “planted” visions like Tess is able to do). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps!) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions of Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifter, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has this come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run”? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully, and the third being the path we are on now!) OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug him – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed!!

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the podsquad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Ummmmm?

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Recently, “Run, Lola, Run” was referred to (Surprise) as the story of Liz’s life. Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the podsquad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seem to be confined to their husks. But the Skins and Max’s alien predecessor’s kind seem to have been from different races. Many of us think that the podsquad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without notice? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race of aliens on Earth (a third race of aliens)? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? If Ava knew that Liz had been changed by Max’s healing, shouldn’t Harding have known? AND if he did know, why didn’t he divulge this information? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee” – and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection.

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across. I have added dates from the Crashdown Timeline and the Whitaker Diaries, but they are questionable, and have no basis in episodes aired, so take them with a grain of salt.
Finally, DATES - there seems to be a question of timing - here is another rundown:
1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
1993 – Maria’s Dad leaves
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
11/11/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex end up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max and Liz share first kiss! (Heatwave)
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this – WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Just thought I'd bring this over from thread 19.

handholding...

..."I believe in YOU." Max to Liz. ARCC promo.

I wish. Super Zero rescues Roswell from continuity issues! They really ought to notice these things. Even my husband who is not Roswell Obsessed said right away during Surprise, "How can she be 18? I thought they were just 16 going on 17."

Thanks Zero!

Your wish is my command...
a little decoration to start the thread off.

...alternative Leaving Normal ending...

Pics from JK interview about LN at the WB.
Too cute.

Obviously that means something about her *special Abilities* or maybe It's about the kyle issue? i dunno!

I dunno why i'm blabbering on here when i alwayz think things but i'm never able to write them down in a way that makes sense.

But I believe that there is a possible chance that maybe Liz use to be on one of the alien planets one of the 5.

Or maybe she is just max's soulmate

Or she could be another pod person which would BE SOO COOL!! so max would want to be with her even more!!!

well i dunno i just like readind waht everyone else has to say cause this THREAD is SOO interesting! i spend hours here dwelling on everything you guys say!

MAX AND LIZ FOREVER!!

I LUV ROSWEll!!

Redhawk: Love those pictures! They remind me (as if I needed reminding) the specialness of Max and Liz and their love. The truth is that would be enough to make Liz more than special but, if you add the great things she contributes to the podsters, their safety, their quest for the truth, it makes indeed for an incredible being.

QFanny: Back in Summer reruns, Michelle of Yonkers started a thread about how Liz had imagined the first fantasy of Sexual Healing and had transmitted it to Max. That's why he had that very interesting smirk on his face when he asked "Just friends?", why he told her "I hope it wasn't my fault", and what gave that little boy hiding behind the tree the courage to come forward and be daring! So, you are right. She projected her fantasy to him. I don't know if I would call it astral projection but telephathy. Max did read her thoughts but he didn't see her "in the flesh" as he did in NYC. Liz didn't know that he was catching her <coughwishful-thinkingcough> very mild thoughts.

What an honor to post in the first page!!

ZERO-I wish you would provide them with character profiles and all these threads to show that we are paying CLOSE ATTENTION and we expect things to FIT together at some point!!!! That is not too much to ask is it?

REDHAWK I am so glad you dragged those pics over here, I thought on no we are changing threads again we will lose those beautiful pics---thanks. I had never see either of them so it was a real treat for me. I think that LN alternate ending was sweet but I am glad they gave us the one they did I thought it was perfect!!!! And that ARCC promo just warms my heart, GOD knows M and L could use a little warmth.

EVID-my half crazed pod BUD--sorry I didn't mean to say I had no support for the card idea, I just meant that MANY thought I was reading way too much into things such as those cards but you are right not everyone and I am so glad you heard those weird sounds coming from TESS? At least I thought they were coming from her. I really am not sure what it means or what the sounds were just that I felt the sounds were there for a reason, my daughter said it sounded like someone snapping pictures, lol, I thought it sounded like something broken--like a faulty machine, and you think it was some kind of tongue action. Well the only kind of tongue action I want to see is between Liz and Max LOL!!!! No seriously you could be right about the sound I just thought it would bring up some interesting discussion.

QFANNY--interesting about the ASTRO PROJECTION and SEXUAL HEALING--it sounds quite plausible to me.

OK, I said in part 19 that I was going to get my dad to watch the last scene of MITC/JTNY. He likes the actors, hates sci-fi, is usually extremely good at reading people and has no emotional investment in the show, having never seen it before. He says that absolutely, Liz does nod, and Max accepts it. He thinks that he accepts her nod as meaning that she's telling the truth, but I disagree--I think that's one area where no knowledge of these two is a hindrance. Personally, I think it's acceptance that Liz can't tell him the truth right now.

Just wanted to share that. I'm going to go cherish now

Pam

So, Liz's importance has reached a new height with the revelation of her changling powers. But does her near death experience leave her open to 'possession' like Brody? And what about Kyle?

And do those Christmas promos mean that they will need 'astral protection' . Somehow I think both EOTW and MITC point toward a longer role for Liz as the Virgin Queen. So if they don't 'cement' things, will Tess try to do it first to have influence over the King?

And welcome AlexSavage . I can tell from your picture that you are one of us!

I'm glad to get in here early and I hope I don't lose track of the discussion.

REDHAWK: I love the animation from ARCC...and THAT is as spoiled as I want to be. It is very exciting to think of them sharing moments like that.

I have one little theory that I want to share. You all can tell me I'm crazy if you want, but I was thinking about the possibility of Atherton being a skin and that is why Nasedo killed him.
We know the skins came in 1950...Atherton was killed in 1959...so it is possible.

I know he wrote the book Among Us about aliens and was thought to have had direct contact. So how could he be a Skin? Whitaker was a Congresswoman working closely with the Special Unit...or at least with Peirce. What better way for any of them to hide in plain sight!
Just a nutty thought....

Zero:Great Job on #20. Wow the summery is becoming a novel. Before you know it you will be the only one to post on the first page.

Her is a pic of Shiri that was posted on the Cherishing thread, I just though you all would get a kick out of it. This is from the January issue of Seventeen.

I think she looks like the Dupe Liz, and boy would Max's mouth water looking at her dressed like this. Don't you think it's time they let Liz play dress up?

Evid

I agree that she is of the utmost importance to the aliens and the storyline. I'm in South Africa, and we'll only be getting the second series in mid-Feb! I'm a blessedly spoiled fan, though, which makes the waiting a bit easier... Liz forms an integral part of the development of the aliens' powers, their gathering of information, their awakening, of sorts. I know it was basically the only way the writers could start this story, but things only started happening for Max, Isabel and Michael AFTER Liz was shot and healed. That is why I feel she is an integral part of their awakening.And, of course, vice versa; knowing them has awakened something in her...

My two cents...

Lee

GraceKel, I also heard the clicking noise in that scene with Tess. As for what it means, I have no idea at the moment.

I keep posting this idea about the balance, but nobody seems to be interested in discussing it, so this will be the last time I mention it. Anyway, River Dog said that the balance was the energy from inside Nasedo (and presumably the hybrids) a force that could change both body and mind unless you navigate it properly. I believe that the reason Liz is changing and Kyle will not is because of the reverse connection, which opened up her synapses (sp?)to enable her to connect with Max and perhaps others in time. Remember in the pilot, Max told Liz that one of the things the pod squad could do is connect with people. I don't think we've seen any examples of this type of connection from any of the others. But, if the writers are going along the line that it was the healing itself that caused the change, there is also a big difference in the two healings. The fact that it was Liz, and the circumstances under which it took place means that Max was not in control and was therefore not navigating the balance properly. Also, the first time Liz had a vision from Max was when he kissed her on stage in Blind Date. Max was drunk and definately not in control of the balance which represents his alien energy or essence.

As for KYLE, although not the same as LIZ, Kyle has been CHANGING since he was healed, I have been quite fascinated by all the budhhism(which some have said brings up the possibility of REINCARNATION) What I cannot decide on quite yet is whether KYLE's changing will be completely positive or negative yet. Which also in a way addresses SHAPESHIFTER's post. Will Kyle be able to be inhabited by an alien, good or bad because of this healing, will Liz? Well it makes you wonder, I am not sure yet.

I have been suspicious of Kyle's healing ever since the DESTINY episode last season because it seemed to me when Dan Pierce was shot at and he went behind that board, I swore I saw this floating WHITE RING float over behind the board, and then when Pierce comes back out with the gun Michael does the Michael magic and kills him. Now I know many think this floating WHITE RING was simply gun smoke, but I do not, it seemed to float slowly through the air almost deliberately slow so I think something unexplained as of yet, happened then. Had alien essence already switched from Dan Pierce to Kyle? And then Max ended up reviving Dan Pierce not Kyle like he thought, almost like the PHOENIX revived from the ashes(someone posted that expression on the SCIFI thread, not sure who exactly it was maybe Nemo or Rosta?) OR since Max healed Kyle did he give him part of himself and this explains the changes(possibly good changes) in Kyle? I am still really on the fence about these things we shall have to see.

DeeDee

I totally agree with you on the recognition thing between Max and Liz, I have always thought that. Max knew that she was the one from the minute he saw her. Because Liz's 'memory' of Max is buried much deeper it just took a more dramatic event to bring it to the surface. I am one of those who has held on to the theory that Liz is the reincarnation of Max's true love from his past life. because she is not a hybrid, she does not have any repressed memories but has the soul of possibly the true bride.

Reading Zero's summary today got me thinking about Tess. I think the leaking pod contained the bride and she died. Harding used the DNA from Sheila Hubble's baby to create Tess and Ava as a replacement (don't ask me where the alien essence for her came from, this is an unfinished speculation!). Thus explaining both Max and Zan's lack of feeling/recognition of Tess/Ava as the bride.

All right, my comments on the Liz/Kyle healing, and I incorrpurate many different theories in this.

I think that the real change for Liz began with the reverse connection not the healing, or else the connection accelerated the process started by the healing. So Liz is already showing signs of powers and Kyle either won't or won't until a much later date. Ava didn't know about the reverse connection so she assumed it was the healing that changed Liz. This brings me to the prophecy theory.
I am a big fan of this one!
anyway, Ava's reaction does advocate something akin to a prophecy that she know about. If she thought that Liz was changed because she had seen Zan do it before, then why the adverse reaction? I mean if that was the case, then wouldn't her reaction have been - yeah, yeah, I've seen this before, no big deal-?
I think this means that there is some kind of prophecy about a king who heals a girl of another species, thus Ava's reaction.

All of this is pure speculation, but my own personal theory is that the prophecy is about a very special person who becomes the perminant keeper of the Granalith and that this person would be known by certain signs. The most important of which being that this person would be brought back from death by a Twilo king and that because of her connection with him, she would become very powerful.
Since prophecies are often told in a kryptic fashion, they can often be misinterpreted. This leads to the fact that Ava thought that the reason Liz was changed was because of the healing, rather than the reverse connection, which she didn't know about anyway. And in turn this explains why Kyle, probably will not change.
If this is all true, then that means that Liz, or Liz and Max both, will very likely become religiouse icons to the Twilian people since the Granalith is "like a holy grail". That also explains all the religios imagery. Also as someone mentioned before, runs parillel with the DS9 storyline of the simple Starfleet Captain who turns out to be a religious icon for a whole world of people that he knows very little about. As I understand it, I think someone said it on this thread, that Ron Moore worked on DS9.

This may also explain the importance of the podsters not knowing their history or their worlds culture. If they had known, then things probably wouldn't have turned out the way they did.

OK, thats all I have to say at the moment. I hope I made since. Any thoughts?

RW

Ree99

I totally agree with your analysis of SH. I was watching that episode the other day and came to the same conclusion. Max saw Liz's fantasy before he even touched her. He asked her if it was his fault that she'd knocked over the stawberries. Well, the strawberries were already on the floor when he walked into the Crashdown. And did you see the look on Liz's face when Max asked her this?? She almost figured out that he knew about the fantasy, but Max cleverly threw her off by saying he thought that he'd startled her, and that's why she knocked over the strawberries. Liz and Max's connection, as we all know, started way before the incident in MITC. I too believe that she unknowling sent him her fantasy, and now with what happened in MITC, it seems that her power is getting stronger. Next time she'll be able to speak during an astro-projection and maybe even do more.

HUGGYBEAR: You make some good points about the changes being made within Liz. I'm not sure if I agree with you when you say Max was out of control when healing Liz. I think that he had to move quickly and at the same time be in control to save Liz, otherwise he might have made things worse (causing her to die much faster or not helping at all). However, I do think that Max was out of control somewhat in Blind Date, but I have to wonder if Liz's visions where caused by Nasedo (who arrived the same night as her visions) and was around during SH, where she had more visions. Or those visions could've been caused by Venus moving into place. Max and Liz discovered that the V was completed when Tess arrived which was right after SH. Maybe all that happened in BD, & SH was caused by Venus moving in to place therefore continuing to awaken the change in Liz. Sorry I sort of went off the subject a bit. At any rate, your theory does work in regards to why Kyle will not change the way Liz has.

Also, it's really strange how Max didn't see into Kyle's soul when he was healing him, but he saw into Liz's when he healed her. You would think that when someone's dying their soul would be completely open, and if one wanted or needed to connect with it they could. Max couldn't or maybe he wouldn't connect in that way to Kyle, or even with Grandma Claudia when he gave the chance to say goodbye, though that's probably considered slightly different, the point is, he didn't see anything with her either, when he tried to connect. But he did with Liz. Her soul (Liz) was either open to him, or Max wanted to connect in that way because he already loved her and his actions wasn't just about saving a persons life, it was about saving the one he loved. Or it could've been both scenarios. Either way it proves that Liz and Max's connection goes deeper than the soulful love they have for each other.

I think the leaking pod contained the bride and she died. Harding used the DNA from Sheila Hubble's baby to create Tess and Ava as a replacement (don't ask me where the alien essence for her came from, this is an unfinished speculation!). Thus explaining both Max and Zan's lack of feeling/recognition of Tess/Ava as the bride.[/B]

That makes alot of sense. We know that several aliens had died in the crash - what if Harding used the alien essence from one of those aliens?
(I've been thinking all along that someone must have done something with those aliens. Even the government could have even been experimenting on creating an alien/human hybrid.)
Sorry if that theory seems too farfetched. I think I may have watched too many episodes of the x-files, and have all of those "government conspiracies" running thru my head.

Since I've had quite a few requests from the Cherishing thread, I thought I'd offer it here, too. Sorry if I offended anyone .

I also remember Michelle's thread about Sexual Healing, and I'm sorry to say I never really understood what she meant and doubted her reasoning. But now it totally makes sense. I have also been rewatching that episode since the revelation of Liz's power and can see what she means. This connection must have been what we also saw in Wipeout when Max seemed to see things from Liz's POV during the Mindrape.

Well ZERO bravo for an excelent introduction. I read the intire thing, and might I say those are some great observations. I have also wondered about all of the above mentioned ideas of Liz's origins,and her actual importance to the pod squad. The ideas on this thread have awakened my speculating senses again. I have really ,missed them since I have been on vacation off of school. I also wonder why Grandma Claudia's book has not been mentioned yet this season and the whole Liz changing thing and Ava's reaction to it.
Is Liz a part of the pod squad? or is she a decendant of some alien race not yet mentioned? All of these questions have hooked me more to the show and I drive my mother crazy with all my ideas on it. I also wondered about how strong the connection with Max( ) and Liz is. How even back in Grade school he has been so attracted to her.Which brings up the questions, was their a mistake of identities about Max's real bride, or was Liz Max's secret love affair on their planet?
Oh I love this I am so caught up in this now! I have all these new found ideas on Liz and can't quite put them down. As mentioned Liz is a self proclamed "Nerd," (as I myself am ). She has a vast intellectual capacity and IS the starter of the pod squad's many activities. I don't know if that last sentence made any sense, I couldn't find the correct word for it. Oh well enough of My mental capacity for now.
I just want to see more of these explanations/speculations!!!!

Well I'll stop for now.

I wonder if that's just a coincidence or not?

ps great board you guys always make me think!!!!!!!!

This is also a theory I often go back to huggybehr (Max not navigating the balance properly when he healed Liz). Although Max/Iz always seemed to have a better grasp of their powers compared to Michael. Max was in a very desperate, heightened state of emotion... the girl he's been infatuated with for *years* has just been shot. His emotions were a mess... then factor in Max probably never using his powers for something so extreme before. Max's healing of Liz to this day is one of the major things Max has ever done with his powers... such a major use of the powers when he's never used them like that before? Couldn't have had *perfect* results imo.

I believe Max inadvertantly (or maybe even purposefully to some small extent) might have left a part of his essence in Liz. Lying on his bed listening to the Counting Crowes, staring at the ceiling, Max dreaming, "If she was like me, we could be together... but that's crazy. She'll never be like me... she would be afraid of me if I ever told her the truth. I might even hurt her if we ever got together." Then the shooting happens. Max (possibly) carrying these deep-seeded, forbidden wants inside of him during the emotionally-charged healing. Even though they weren't in the forefront of his thoughts and he'd never do anything intentional to hurt or *change* Liz... that big part of him that wanted to be with Liz more than anything probably manipulated what could have been a normal Max healing to something MUCH more. Starting a change in Liz that would make it possible for Max to be with her (and only her?) one day.

Max said in the PILOT that he *wanted to tell her* so many times (just prior reverse connection). It wouldn't surprise me if that little subconscious part of Max during the healing and/or the reverse connection *purposefully* changed Liz so a relationship between them would eventually be possible.

I still feel Kyle is also changed, but not to the extent of Liz's change. Since Max never wanted anything to do with Kyle (never really even liked him all that much prior the shooting in "Destiny")... Max probably changed him chemically (possibly via the CadX? Although I just don't want to go there at the moment - I'll leave that up to someone more knowledged of science ), but Liz's change goes all the way to her very essence. Max and Kyle might have a very dim connection, but it's nothing comparable to the one he has with Liz. Besides, if Kyle does change (and it's thru connecting w/ any podster [aka *gifted* individual] change is forwarded), then it's Tess that will probably change Kyle the most (or that's what I'm hoping for anyway) and the one Kyle will have a stronger connection with

Max is a part of Liz and I also feel Liz is a part of him (hence this might explain the highway visions we see in WO when Nik is mindraping Max... Max is seeing this through Liz's eyes). Or Max could be tapped into that part of himself in Liz? Wouldn't it be amusing if (some of) the visions Max and Liz were receiving in SH were not coming from each others' heads, but the memories/essences exchanged from the PILOT (or sometime afterward). Max *remembers* Liz as a child because that's part of the memories/essence Liz *somehow* gave him. Liz sees the red giant, stars etc because this is what was engrained in Max's essence/memories (from deep within him) and now is inside her head (part of what Max gave to / shared with her). However, the orb visions I do feel were coming from the orb (and the orb receiving them from the Granilith?). Liz's memories are Max's and Max's memories are now Liz's? I feel the (reverse) connection must have gone both ways at some time... if not, Max wouldn't have been able to see through Liz's eyes (presumedly) in WO. Liz wouldn't have been able to contact/connect with him in MITC.

Melodious

As for Ava, her look, to me, was one of awe. Like the legend from back home that said that great things, freedom for their world, will come from their King and the girl from a far away place, that was brought back from the dead by him! I have high hopes that Zan is not dead and will enter the Crashdown one day. I'll just sit down and enjoy the sparks that will fly when he realizes he wants her and he and Max have to fight for her, thus proving She is the One!

BehrFan: As soon as I saw the pentagram in Destiny, I went running to 285 So. If you notice, the skylight at the entrance of the geodesic dome has the exact same shape as the device. BTW, an architect friend of mine said a skylight like that is very difficult to build. So, yes, I think chances are Atherton was an alien.

Dayneen: The V formation appeared in the sky at the end of Balance, at the beginning of December, when Max told Liz he needed time to find balance and left the terrace. Liz looked up at the sky and there it was! It also showed up on February 14th, during Blind Date. It did not appear when Tess showed up. Not at all, most definitely not!
That's just one of those Roswellisms that drive me crazy: if somebody says it once, then it's gospel! No! (Sorry, it's just like the Max is controlling thing: never happened until Toy House and now everybody says it!).

Butterfly: What you say is plausible, but unfortantely, it's a detail I'm afraid the writers are not going to give us in the exposition of the show. Perhaps if we are lucky, they will put Liz's scientific journal up on the silverhandprint site to give us some *factual* biological explanations.

But even so, the aliens that the government held captive were not like Max. So the cerebral cortex may or may not be the location of his alien abilities. This is not my own comment, but someone elses, probably Palomino's. But anyway, Pierce was very surprised that Max had a human body... So there were differences, and it may not be that is how Max's powers work.

If anything we know from the quote shapeshifter brought over about KKB's comment about "altered" Liz, KKB said if they did it too Liz, they would have to do it to Kyle. So I think that Kyle will get these same abilities.

On that thought, Kyle is already into meditation. It's possible that he's already done some astro-walking, but attributes this discovering to his new religion... I bet he'll be surprised, and disappointed when he finds out Liz can too and it has nothing to do with "states of minds", but the fact that they were both brought back from the dead by the same alien.

My big question from MitC is why would they give Liz powers! She certainly doesn't need them to prove her importance. And if the writers were trying to give answers to the reason why Liz gives visions, the subject was not touched at all. We are left to assume that it's because she's changed. so that still leaves my mind, clicking away, why? why? why?

And thus, a new theory is born--please help me with this, because it's still a bit farfetched....

MitC teaches us that the aliens on the home planets can reach out with their minds and possess humans. What would happen if Liz started to astro-project and the aliens tried to possess her astro-projection... Could the lack of the human body cause their energy to bounce back to the alien agent and kill them?

What would happen if Nicholas tried to mind rape an astro-projection? Could he be hurt because he's opening his mind to recieve data, and Liz could plant false information...

Do you see what I am saying.

Why give Liz a power unless it's extremely useful in the pod squad's totaly plight. (I am not discounting Liz saving Max's life, I am just saying that there should be a greater use for this gift.)

Hi DreamBeliever

All ideas are welcomed on this page! And I see that this is your first post. If you try to keep up with all the rest of the RBI (Roswell Bureau of Investigation) agents here, you're in for a wild ride!

Welcome to the world of Roswell posts! Good point re: no flashes from Rath when he kissed Liz.

I've been playing a mini-marathon while I've been on the computer this aft., and something in WO is bothering me. When Tess does the fire mindwarp, I originally assumed that her motivation was to stop Nicholas from hurting Max any further--since she's supposedly in love with him, it made sense that she wouldn't want to see him in pain. However, this time around I've been focussing on Tess whenever she's been in the scene (hard to do--JB's a distraction! ), and it seems to me that it was not so much because Max was in pain, but because Nicholas was getting close to the info about the granolith. And Nicholas doesn't look at her at all before talking to Iz, but Tess has a strange look on her face when he ignores her. I guess this is all bothering me because of Tess' reactions in MITC/JTNY. When Max lies to Lonnie about the granolith, she looks immensely relieved, and when he admits its existence on Earth to the summit members, she looks disappointed, like she'd expected him to lie again.

I also think it's significant that she DIDN'T freak out when Max told her that the reason he'd lied the first time was because of something Liz said. She seemed confused, saying that Liz hadn't even seen it yet. I think there's a deeper reason for that--I think she knows that what Liz was saying is the truth, and is puzzled as to how Liz got this info.

That's just my musings for the day! Keep up all the wonderful thoughts.

Oh, bluecornmoon, I e-mailed you the story. Thanks for asking!

Nasedo knew that the alien (Tess)in the leaking pod would die, did he allow the skins to find the pod and raise her. Then take her back, erase those memories and basically program her to be a protector for Max. She said Nasedo helped her learn to pull memories from her past life, but were they the real memories or what he programmed? Did he do this to find out how 'damaged' she was by the pod leak? And is this why the skins weren't looking for her, because they believe she is damaged and no threat? But is she more powerful than even Nasedo thought?

There were 8 pods - were the mistakes deliberate and sent to NY where they hoped Nik and his group would find them? Is the missing element in their home world the human DNA that the four now have?

I like the idea of the legend of the King finding his true queen on a far distant world and saving her by brining her back to life.

Sorry I am rambling, but you guys get my mind to going with all these possibilities. I love it.

4everyoung

It was you.............Max to Liz

RW- I really love the way you put the "prophecy" theory. I am a BIG fan of there being some "prophecy". I dont think Kyle's healing will change him - because I think when Liz said she was healed it was the fact that Ava knew that she was in the presence of THE CHOOSEN ONE that convinced her that Liz had powers. It was not Max's healing that "caused" Liz to have powers - the healing was a SIGN.

Ashton - great work disecting Balance. I agree with you - I am a very big believer that Max and Liz are "twin souls". This fits with all the symbolism that surrounds them.

GraceKel - I havent spent time on the clicking yet - but I havent forgotten about it! And for anyone who thinks we "read way too much into things" - I wholeheartedly disagree. Set design, lighting design, screenwriting, costume design - these are all things that get taken VERY seriously be the professional artists that work extremely hard at their job and do it THOUGHTFULLY. They do not just throw things together - each member of the production team is going to be a artsit - that uses their work to create something with meaning.
GraceKel - I will admit that I always thought you took things a teeny bit far with dissecting the food orders at CrashDown - but then in MITC when Maria offered Brody a GALAXY SUB (which is what he is - a galactic "sub" for Larek) - I was like "OH MY GOSH - GraceKel has been SO right about all this!!!!" LOL!!!
So - moral is - there are no "minor" details.
And a clue is a clue no matter how small :-)

And finally - Redhawk - my jaw dropped when I saw your alternate ending to LN.
It is way more than just decoration.
I find that OFTEN Max and Liz are shot framed together so that they form the outline of the yin/yang orb swirl (that I believe represents their "twin souls" and the BALANCE they create together). But - I have never seen it quite as obvious as it is here - take a look.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

quote:Originally posted by bluecornmoon:
QFanny: Back in Summer reruns, Michelle of Yonkers started a thread about how Liz had imagined the first fantasy of Sexual Healing and had transmitted it to Max. That's why he had that very interesting smirk on his face when he asked "Just friends?", why he told her "I hope it wasn't my fault", and what gave that little boy hiding behind the tree the courage to come forward and be daring! So, you are right. She projected her fantasy to him.
I don't know if I agree with the timing of this "transmission". I still believe that he saw her fantasy either during the Cosmic Strawbehry Kiss or during the Eraser Room kiss. I think it was even during the Eraser Room one that he pauses as if to catch his breath after seeing something. But I do believe that she could have projected it to him... or else he *saw* inside her.

Oh, GraceKel, I don't think you read too much into this. I find your analysis fascinating and you should be very proud of how many of your theories have been proven correct.

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:
So if they don't 'cement' things, will Tess try to do it first to have influence over the King?
Ack! Ack! Ack! What a horrid thought. shapeshifter, I'm going to have to wash my mind out now. Should I pass the soap around to all of you too?
Thanks for posting Elliot's quote. I forgot all about that.

quote:Originally posted by bluecornmoon:
I have high hopes that Zan is not dead and will enter the Crashdown one day. I'll just sit down and enjoy the sparks that will fly when he realizes he wants her and he and Max have to fight for her, thus proving She is the One!
Wow! Now that's an idea. Two Maxes fighting over Liz.

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
And finally - Redhawk - my jaw dropped when I saw your alternate ending to LN.
It is way more than just decoration.
I find that OFTEN Max and Liz are shot framed together so that they form the outline of the yin/yang orb swirl (that I believe represents their "twin souls" and the BALANCE they create together). But - I have never seen it quite as obvious as it is here - take a look.

Wow! I just love it when we work together like this. Sometimes we are so in sync with one another and don't even realize it. I love your theory on this StarBox.

Welcome DreamBeliever & 4everyoung! You're going to love it here. Great posts by both of you. Hope to see you around more.

I agree, there are no coincidences. The more I review the eps the more I see what everyone has been saying. I actually caught the Galaxy Sub bit. Whoa...

And yes, pass the soap this way please.

4everyoung

It was you............Max

4everyoung

It was you..............Max

How cool is that???
Dreamers - feel free to post those two images together elsewhere :-) - all dreamers should see them :-) :-)
Redhawk - with your awesome photo skills - I bet you could "merge" the images together so that the orb swirl was on top of Max and Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer (looking forward to the MERGEing of Max and Liz)

RW-I do like your theory about the Prophecy I just have never been able to come up with what exactly this prophecy would be.

Redhawk and Starbox thanks for the support LOL!!! Oh and Star loved the way you explained that Y/Y thing with Redhawks pic.

Oh and Starbox I know you are probably going to kill me but could you post that whole thing on the picture in the crashdown that was featured while Max was talking to Maria in EOTW eppy? Remember the story about how the man had thought his lover had betrayed him but really she had not blah blah....I would appreciate it or if it is saved somewhere already where would I find this?
And Star get on that clicking???LOL!!!

SHAPESHIFTER---I fear that is exactly what Tess is trying to do--cement things b4 LIZ does.

Though I think in the grand sceme of things LIz is very important. I still don't think it would be fair for her to change and not Kyle. Like someone mentioned it would be fun to see how he would deal w/this. I also still believe their is more to both the families being prominent figures in Roswell to begin w/as I mentioned on the last thread.
--I think Ava reaction was what it was cause she didn't know that Kyle was healed also. But her comments on Zan waiting for someone else seem more prevelant to me.

I am siding w/what someone just said about Tess wanting to protect the granilith maybe more then protecting Max. This is a powerful thing and if something were to happen to Max I think protecting the Granilith is probably all of their main objective. Probably more for her cause now that Max kinda trusts her she doesn't want to let him down. Since Vilandra now is the traitor, maybe this time if Max is betrayed it will be by Tess cause this time she stays in town instead of leaving. So leaving her w/the advantage if something happens to the others leaving her w/the Granilith knowledge. But w/Liz being the only one who knows what it can really do (except now Maria) she can use her knowledge and new abilities to keep it out of the wrong hands. Only if something happens to M/M/I and Tess goes Rogue.

From EOTW:

Here is the meaning of the ship picture in the middle of Max and Maria:

"The old Scandanavian tale of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his score "The Flying Dutchman", symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love.....
In desperation the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful.
Senta, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears that she will be faithful to the Dutchman unto death. However, in doing so, she betrays her finace Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she was trying to save. The Dutchman puts out to sea, but his vessel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned.
HOWEVER - the pair are now seen RISING from the now-CALMED waters, TRANSFIGURED and REDEEMED by their SACRIFICE.
Salvation is no impossibly idealistic dream, but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality."

An interesting notation to this is in EOTW we see a clear contrast being drawn between Tess - who if she can't "HAVE" Max says "to hell with him" and is ready to screw around with Kyle just for recreation and Liz - who out of loyalty to Future Max only PRETENDS to sleep with Kyle - and then - thinking she may NEVER "have" her true love - tells Max that from now on - even if they can never be together - she will always stay faithful to him.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I want max andliz to be together and i know they will *well i hope*

Newayz Someone said something about Tess knowing about the granolith's powers and about her wondering how Liz knew what she knewa bout it. I believe that's true actualyl it seems most likely to happen and it's possible

I think Tess's memories were fake and as someone said programmed into her by Nasedo because he's way of protecting them was unusuaul and he was weird.

I think maybe Tess will back off and go with Kyle and Then Liz wil lbe with MAx.

Liz is very important i think she'll help the pod squad a lot in future.

MAX AND LIZ FOREVEA I LUIV ROSWELL!!

But never fear, Liz's Importance will triumph in the end! Here's an attempt at soap manufacturing:
So, what will Ava's 'prophecy' or Alien Fact turn out to be? I'm thinking about Max saying he wasn't going to let some book tell him what to do, and how a meddling Mommo-in-law might have to be distanced if the marriage is going to work. Tess and Mommo seem to be archivists of the alien past, but maybe to re-write history it would be better to go with one's heart. Maybe there's even a prophecy for it. Zan was waiting for someone else to come into his life, and Max found that someone. Of course FM said they failed doing that, but maybe with a changed Kyle for Tess, and Tess calling Roswell "home," things could work out now. **Sigh** how many season's will the writers break our hearts?

I wonder if that's just a coincidence or not?

ps great board you guys always make me think!!!!!!!!

You know - I wasn't sure if the ruler was named "Zero" or "Sero" - but if it was Zero, I'm quite honored (though it probably has nothing to do with me - but wouldn't that be cool !) !

Thanks everyone for your kind words :D - the Intro has taken on a life of its own, and is a labor of love (or obsession according to my Husband )! I couldn't put it together without the great ideas that flow from these threads!! I'm always so impressed by the observations and research that people do who post here. I'm hoping to meet one or two of you in Bellingham in a two weeks. I will be fun to talk in person!

Also - THANKS for all the wonderful pictures - it makes the THREAD COME ALIVE!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I haven't had a chance to catch up on the thread since my last post, but I promise to do that tomorrow. I just had to post this before I catch up on some ZZZzzzzzzs.

...more Christmas presents...

Leaving Normal

Would you say we have a Y/Y thing happening here too? Look at the way their arms entwine around them like the orb symbol.

And another note... Have you ever noticed how many times Max runs his fingers through her hair during this hug? Well when you work on every still frame in a very long animation it is obvious. At least three times. The boy loves those long brown tresses.

Good night! Sweet dreams...

I'd tie in the Granolith somewhere, somehow, but I'm too tired right now. But I have always liked the prophecy theory, but used to think of it in terms of an Indian prophecy about a human girl being the protector of humanity, but now - after Ava's reaction - I could see a Twilo prophecy too - that Khivar may be dreading is coming true and will do anything to prevent.

Starbox - loved the picture analysis!! Super! The two souls coming together and becoming intertwined forever! Maybe the Granolith is the spot in the middle, and those are Liz and Max's souls swirling around??

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

If anyone has brought up anything similar in the past, I apologize. No plagerism is intended.

Could Prince Zan have visited Earth before? Met a *[human] girl* and fell in love with her... Dad dies... Zan must return to Twilo and leave this girl behind... they're both devastated but they live on, never forgetting each other.

1983 - Liz Parker is born.... 6 years later, a little boy (same age as Liz is currently) emerges from an alien pod... ? Kindergarten (1st grade?) Max steps off a school bus and seemingly recognizes a little girl from across the playground...

...Could the human DNA in Max possibly be from the human Zan "occupied" during his possible stay on Earth? Liz a direct descendant of that human Zan loved? This explains part of the recognition that Max seemingly has, but I think there's even more to it than that.

SCENARIO: Zan discovers his father is dead. Zan tells *Eliza* (Let's just say this is Liz's great-grandmother to save time ... yes, I know the name is cliche!!). Eliza knows about Zan's *specialness* (he loved her so much, he was comfortable enough to tell her... or something *happened* to Eliza, Zan healed her or something -- hence the Run Lola Run comparisons might work themselves in here -- Max and Liz's timeline is another life?). Zan must "return home". Zan asks Eliza to come with him [be his Queen], however, she would have to abandon everything she knows. Her family, friends, her species and planet. More than likely, never to return. Twilo is too far away and chances are Zan/Eliza would die on Twilo anyway due to the conflict that was burgeoning at the time? Eliza will also have to *change* in order to live with him on Twilo. Eliza is extremely torn and petrified to follow him. Although she knows he's her soulmate, Eliza can't go with Zan to Twilo. Zan - although crushed - understands Eliza's situation. They both realize they'll never love anyone like they love each other. Zan leaves for Twilo eventually marries Ava. Eliza eventually marries Peter Parker.

Eliza and Peter have one daughter (?), Claudia. Via her mother, Claudia has all these beliefs on *soulmates* and *following your heart* drilled into her. Eliza doesn't want Claudia to make the same mistake she did (realizing only when it was too late that she should have went with Zan?). Although this would have to mean Claudia never married or didn't change her name... Jeff has his mother's maiden name? Or Claudia simply never married and raised Jeff on her own? Neither scenario would surprise me all that much I suppose. Claudia did seem like a strong, independent woman. Or did Claudia possibly never marry because of this *essence* in her... she was waiting for that special someone to come along (not unlike Earth Zan), but he never came. Claudia had *some fling* to pass the time and had Jeff (essence passes to him, but lies dormant... passing to Liz when she was born), but never married his father? Knowing he *wasn't the one*?

Due to all the *connecting* (or due to the possible healing) Eliza and Zan did... Eliza was permanently changed anyway. This passed down to Claudia... and now these changes (King's essence?) are in Liz.

However, all of this leads me to other speculations. If Zan *possibly* connected/healed one of Liz's relatives (Liz's great-grandmother?), then possibly Zan's essence was split even before he ever took the crown, before Max ever healed (changed?) Liz. Could this have contributed *possibly* to Zan's failure to some degree? He wasn't *complete* (or the group wasn't complete) hence he couldn't successfully lead and eventually they all died.

Everyone (of significance) on Twilo possibly knew about Zan's *visits* to Earth, yet only Ava (possibly) knew about his love for a human. Could this be considered a prophecy? Ava knows that Zan loved a human, so much he risked himself to save her (irreversibly changing her and himself).

Earth Ava remembers what occured on Twilo... discovering Max healed Liz, Ava realizes history is repeating itself (or the prophecy is realizing itself)? Ava *knows* who Liz must be. Yet in *this* story, Max is (basically) an Earthling; much more compatible with a human than Zan was with his girl (that he changed). Yet Max is changed/ing Liz even further? Developing her pre-existant (dormant) powers via the King essence that has been passed down to her? Ava knew this too?

Ava realizes that Max and Liz MUST be together; if not, the King essence will never be whole again? Ava knows that there's nothing she or Tess could/can do to keep M/L apart (and realizes this is why Zan never loved her - Zan was also looking for this girl he'd healed on Earth BEFORE). Since Max is *the chosen one*; he was the one who found *this [changed] girl* (of the prophecy)?

The Twilonians *attempted* to manipulate the "destiny" possibly? Ava/Tess consists of the DNA from Eliza and/or Claudia? However, simply using the DNA didn't work.... but it leads me to another rather startling theory. If Eliza/Claudia's DNA was at all used to create the "Young Bride" then the memories Tess seemingly has of Zan loving her, could they possibly be Eliza's memories? Due to Tess' particular program (as it is for M/Mi/I), she'll *never* remember what happened on Twilo. This memory retrieval process Edsedo taught Tess is/was so effective, however, Tess is somehow tapping into these echoes of memory possibly stored in her very DNA? She just *thinks* they're memories from Ava/Zan's life, but they're actually from Eliza/Zan. Although, because Tess only has partial DNA from this woman Zan loved once... she's not the whole (she's mostly Ava).

Liz is the one not only carrying the DNA/essence of that woman Zan (possibly) loved, but also carries part of the King essence as well? Liz + Max = Whole King & reunited soulmates. Tess + Max = an alliance of powers. Tess + Max + Liz = Complete Team.

By the time Tess realizes Max & Liz must be together... Tess will hopefully already be an accepted part of the group. She won't want to jeopardize their lives (her family/friends) by betraying them. She'll stick around and eventually accept Max/Liz's inevitable union. I feel she only needs to be convinced she'll be part of the group despite Max being with Liz; she'll still have a place amongst the Scooby Gang.

Because the King essence is now whole again on Earth. It will be on Earth that the Royal Four + Liz will succeed? With the extra additions of their other human allies of course

I know, completely insane (and l-o-n-g). I had to share it or my head would have exploded

Melodious

originally posted by Zero: quote:I'd tie in the Granolith somewhere, somehow, but I'm too tired right now. But I have always liked the prophecy theory, but used to think of it in terms of an Indian prophecy about a human girl being the protector of humanity, but now - after Ava's reaction - I could see a Twilo prophecy too - that Khivar may be dreading is coming true and will do anything to prevent.

I think that the prophecy can be both. One originating from the Twilonians and one from the Natives-- parallel prophecies about the same girl.

Now all we need is for TPTB to remember all their Season I Native references, lol.

luv...meeh!

Suppose Lonnie wasn't lying about the Granlilth being some sort of holy grail (she didn't seem to have a reason to as she doesn't know how much Max knows about it and wouldn't want to raise doubts from him in case he does know about the Granlilth and therefore could tell she's lying). The original legend of holy grail is that whoever finds it can bring peace and salvation to the world or something similar, so the prophercy on Twilo goes like this: there is a girl from another planet, destined to be the soulmate of a king and bring salvation to Twilo in its time of need by finding out the key to unlock the Granlilth's powers. The girl will first be brought back from death by the king, then guide/portect the king and his court (the Royal 4), discover powers that lie dormant within herself as her destiny to be Twillo's savior, and eventually become the one to hold Granlilth's powers.

Now, the prophercy is old, so before the Khivar uprising nobody knew Max is the foretold king and so they just arranged a marriage between him and Tess, who loves him (judging by Ava's feelings for Zan). Max didn't love Tess but went along with it b/c they were friends, didn't have anyone else to marry, political alliance, etc. Then Khiva took the throne by persuading Villandra to *betray* her brother either unintentionally or she later repented and joined the rest of the Royal 4 to die in battle. Their supporters, desperate to save them, engieered the pods and send them to Earth. Why Earth? We know Granlilth could be used as a transportation tool, maybe they just put the pods and the shapeshifters in and let the Granlilth send them wherever it deemed appropriate? (Let's say their human DNA are put in after they got here) This would explain why the Granlilth is with them on Earth instead of being highly guarded on Twilo to keep Khivar away. The Granlilth, being powerful and all, goes to Earth where Liz/savior is. This would explain Ava's reaction to Liz, parts of the prophercy (being saved, loved!by king) have already came true, and so Ava is convinced Liz could save Max b/c that's what the savior would do. And it would tie in the Granlilth and Earth too. Now, what do you think of this? I know it sounds a little like the other prophercies, but I personally can't see a Max/Zan in former life coming to Earth and fall in love. One, it costs resources and Earth is a backward planet compared to Twilo and of no interest unless the prophercy specifies an Earth girl being the king's soulmate, but then Max/Zan would know and never let Liz/her ancestor go. Two, I can't see Max marrying Tess when he had already met Liz/her ancestor. Anyway, sorry for the long post. Tell me what you think!

EC2k

Would you say we have a Y/Y thing happening here too? Look at the way their arms entwine around them like the orb symbol.

[/B]

It is definately another yin/yang orb pattern. With the areal view you can see how clear and deliberate the shot is. VERY cool.
JK must have been in a very "orb-y" mood with this episode to shoot two alternate endings with the same symbol.

In the Cirque De Soliel show "Saltimbanco" they did an act with two sisters - the beginning of the act had them carried out wrapped together in a very similar way - they were supoosed to look like a yin/yang - twin fetuses in the womb. They then acted reaching out and being "born" and then proceeded to do a hauntingly lovely trapeeze act together.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

About the prophecy thing I dont know if you read Robert Jordan Wheel of Time series but in the book the prophecy of the Dragon goes something like this:" And then the world shall cry out at his birth he shall be born of the blood but not raised of the blood he will unite us and destroy us. He will clean the taint..." I just it was fuuny how similar the prophecy was to what you were saying

Ack - vomit, puke, yuck, hork, pass out GROSS!

Someone please say Max would never be such a... a... gag. Yuck.

Just a few comments on a few theories:

Rooney--I like the idea of the dying star being representative of Zan dying. They do correlate. Of course, someone (sorry, I forgot who) mentioned that we do not see the light of a red star very well and it takes a long time to see. But I think that although that may be true that is not what the writer's meant. I think it does correlate exactly with Zan's death.

Reggie--I noticed that the dupes tatooes had dots and not kidney bean shaped marks in the center of the foursquare symbols, too!! It would be interesting if the writer's made it a different symbol, but I doubt it.

Azcat--I thought Liz says "Get out of the way" when she projects her image in NY. I like the connection you make between Peter walking to Jesus. Peter is scared just as Liz was scared!!

I just have to say tears came to my eyes I was laughing so hard at the Maria moment--"unacceptable."

I love it!!

Well, after that brilliant cut from Rath and Lonnie to Michael and Iz (love that they're finally bonding and working together - they were forced to when Max and Tess left - although I don't think they'll "be" together - sorry, tangent), M & I seem uncomfortable with Liz, like they know what happened. So I'm assuming they hated her for it (I would, if I were them). Then when Liz convinces Ava to tell them what happened to Max, she admits, for the first time, to anyone (in my recollection), and especially since her sacrifice, how very, very much she loves Max. And you KNOW Michael and Iz were listening! So, after Max and Iz talk, she probably (how could she not?) TELLS Max what Liz said! I'm sure everyone here has thought of that, but it was the first time it reached my fuzziness .

Until then, I read somewhere that there was a clip on a WB site that mentioned "the ShapeShifter shifting into Michael's foster father, Hank." And that later on they "come to fin that he is Nasedo, the one they've been looking for."??

Are they trying to tell us that Tic-Tac and Nasedo are the same guys!?!? Cuz.. well, that would just suck.

EC2k I your prophecy theory. Melodius, yours was really good too, but I also have difficulty with the idea of Zan having falen in love on Earth before.

I had an idea as to WHY Earth, of all places, was chosen for the podsters. In David Eddings' "Belgariad" series, there is a mad god, named Torak, who was injured in battle with the Bearer of the Orb, which is a magical talisman of good. Torak went to a specific cave to lick his wounds, and one of the sorcerors who protect the Orb & its Bearer said that he chose that cave because it was one of the few places in the world that could bear Torak's weight. Now, I figured they meant metaphysical weight, of course! What if Earth is one of the few places in the universe that can support the metaphysical weight of the Granolith? We know it has an enormous amount of power; it should be "heavy." Does this make sense to anyone? Please help me develop this idea!!

NOTE TO THOSE WHO HAVE NOT READ THE BELGARIAD: This 5-book fantasy series (there's also a 5-book sequel series) is a completely classic hero's journey. The author has said as much, that he was trying to develop certain ideas about the field by writing the series. There are many elements of similarities, especially surrounding the central character, Garion, who is a king and a sorceror but grows up ignorant of both, believing he's an orphan taken in by his aunt (sorry to spoil that for anyone who hasn't read it!). The main difference (at least I choose to believe it's a difference!) is that Garion does fall for his predestined bride and gives up his childhood sweetheart. But I believe it's different because his childhood sweetheart is not special in any way, and in fact would be totally out of place at the new Garion's side--UNLIKE Liz, who would be capable of an equal partnership.

Whew! Gotta go--they're coming out of the meeting any minute now! See you later on tonight.

There will come a time when our five peoples will be in a great struggle against one another that could destroy all of our worlds. The rightful king of Twilo and the Granalith will be lost and an imposter will take his throne. To save all of our worlds, not only must the lost king be found, but also the one whom he will bring back from death for she possess the power to control the Granalith. Together, each with their respective courts, they hold the key to the survival of the entire universe.

I'm not spoiled, so this is just speculation

RW

Well just wanted to see if my speculations were doing ok

Happy Speculating!!!

BLUECORNMOON: You're right, the V formation didn't appear when Tess showed up, but Venus was moving into place to complete the V constellation. In Four Square Liz said "Venus, when in the right place in the sky completes the V shape. It started moving into this formation after the last full moon." Max said,"About the time Tess showed up."
Now Max and Liz think that Tess showing up is directly related to Venus moving into position. I'm saying that Liz's visions in BD & SH were possibily related to Venus moving into place. All the visions started right after Nasedo arrived and right before Tess showed up. After BD and SH, we got our first glimpse of Tess in Crazy (though these episodes were aired a little over a month apart, I still feel it all holds significance). And also, why did Max have to find the orb right then in SH?? The visions were definitely connected to Nasedo's arrival, Venus moving into place (to complete V formation) etc.,

Something else, check out this conversation in White Room.
Michael (to Nasedo): "I've been looking for you for a long time"
Nasedo:" Not as long as I've been looking for you."

Another point proving that Tess is hiding something. In 4 square she claimed Nasedo was waiting for her when he came out of the pod. Now if the other 3 where missing, you'd think he would've checked Roswell first, for some stray children that just popped up around the same time Tess came out of her pod. I don't know there's still something off about Tess. Whether she's good or bad remains to be seen.

QFANNY: In White Room Pierce tells Max that he injected him with a serum in his cerebral cortex, and that's why he was so weak and couldn't use his powers, because the serum disabled his powers. Remember, Max tried attacking Pierce but failed because he was so weak. I think Max's powers are in his cerebral cortex, the same as the aliens captured in the 40's. Therefore I believe that Liz will most definitely be greatly changed by what Max did to her in the Pilot. He connected with her twice. When he healed her he put one hand at the base of her head and told her to look at him. She did. Then in the reverse connection Max put his hands on both sides of her head!!! (it probably doesn't matter how many hands are on one's head to affect the cerebral cortex ) While the connection is happening, once again they're looking into each others eyes. I believe that's how and why Liz was changed so much because of the way he healed her and where he touched her when making the connection.

I think there might be some changes in Kyle: I mean seriously, anyone who's had a near death experience would probably be more spiritual etc., and he'll probably have some changes because of the healing itself, but it will be nothing like the change in Liz. Plus, Liz has been exposed to the "balance" more than once. Remember the in the "Balance," she was able to connect with the others by just holding the healing stone. She didn't even drink the water. The water that Riverdog said they all had in common, and that by drinking from the same bowl the connection would began. Liz found her own way, like Riverdog said she would. And that "way" was paved by the change that was already happening within her.

What do all you think?

I think as far as a prophesy goes, it doesn't have to be specific. very likely it just says something like this:

There will come a time when our five peoples will be in a great struggle against one another that could destroy all of our worlds. The rightful king of Twilo and the Granalith will be lost and an imposter will take his throne. To save all of our worlds, not only must the lost king be found, but also the one whom he will bring back from death for she possess the power to control the Granalith. Together, each with their respective courts, they hold the key to the survival of the entire universe.

RW

I really like that prophecy! Sounds plausible! Great job RW!

I am still convinced that smile meant, 'I know you're still lying to me, but I'll let it go for now until you're ready to tell me the truth'.

What do all you think?

I think this is a good explanation, as Niko might have had some reason to, whereas if it had been a Tessovision, I just don't understand why. Finally, someone addresses this! I know, it's just a confusing thing. You know, in relation to this, remember when Max seemed unsurprised to see Nicholas at the Summit? And all the things to which I've been yelling, Max, wake up, open your eyes! Well, I'm starting to think he suspects things, and is just letting them culminate, till he can understand. If this is true, the reason he hasn't talked to anyone about them is because he doesn't have any idea who he can trust. I guess now that he knows he can trust Michael, Is and Liz, we'll find out whether he airs any suspicions to any of them.

RW,MELODIOUS, and ZERO all very interesting and plausible PROPHECY theories and Zero I wouldn't throw out the NA connection yet remember the NA pic in ASK NOT in the school hallway, so I don't think this subject is dead yet, just delayed LOL!!!

I am still convinced that smile meant, 'I know you're still lying to me, but I'll let it go for now until you're ready to tell me the truth'.

Huggybehr I agree!

The fact that Liz doesn't say anything in response, struck me right away. I don't think she nodded 'yes' to Max asking if she slept w/Kyle, more that she had a look of "how can I keep lying to you [Max], it's so painful".

Then Max's "I know you're still lying to me, but I'll let it go for now until you're ready to tell me the truth." He wasn't going to pressure her, but he knows there's more to her lie than what appears on the surface-- just like most of the things going on (ie: Nick at the summit, Rath & Lonnie, etc)... he's biding his time, starting to put together all the little loose clues everyone is leaving, before he plays his cards. (hehe, there's those 'cards' again )

Yes, I think that's a distinct possibility. My non-cyber friend and I were joking about the possibility of him even being a little mischievious with the "friendship" thing. Like he's kind of stringing her along a little. I mean, anyone in their right mind couldn't possibly have missed the looks of hope then disappointment that Liz gives him when he says he wants to start over, then says "with our friendship", or the burning out comment she made at the school. Doubtful, I know, that he would do that, but totally cute nonetheless.

It could easily be Niko who brought the yearbook to NY, knowing that he could con the dupes into beleiving that they could actually go home if they went to the summit. Niko probably talked Lonnie into the idea that they should kill Zan if he doesn't agree to the summit, since he (Niko) knew where the other podsters where at, and could provide her with a replacement Zan. Making this a huge set up, only wanting to convince Max that he was doing the right thing by handing over the granolith.

I don't think that Niko was the protector, b/c Whitaker doesn't mention ever knowing where any of the podsters were in her journal. http://www.silverhandprint.com/ufl/index.html But of course this doesn't prove anything, I would just think that "the moral" of the skins would've been better if they had at least located the reject royal 4's in NY.

Someone please say Max would never be such a... a... gag. Yuck.

azcat the only thing left to say is

I totally agree w/ you, like gag me with a spoon but to answer your question I really don't believe he would EVER bc. with things going really well according to ARCC and stuff...actually it would make more sense if he had done it immediately after seeing Liz with Kyle, but now he's past it, so...there's my 2 cents

1. on the Oct. 7, 2000 entry she says about Liz "I could smell Max Evins on her the day that I met them both."
Could she have been detecting Max's essance on Liz?

2. On the April 18, 2000 entry she says some confusing things like, Roswell is full of a bunch of yokes cashing in on something that never happened. (Is she saying that the yokes don't actually believe it happened?) She also says that the orb that pierce had was insignificant, "a pit stop where some hybrids were stashed away for a couple of decades."
1947 to 1989 is more than a "couple of decades" isn't it? :P But after what we learned on SO47 that must be just another mistake made by the writers.

3. On the April 29, 1994 some of what she has written has been blacked out, but in my oppinion what it looks like she wrote was... "My name is Vanessa Whitaker, and for the second time in my life I'm a married woman. But this time it isn't for love.
So I wonder who Vanessa's first husband was. Was it someone back home, or here on earth? Was it one of the people that Niko killed in '58? Was it a skin or a human?

I thought she says she is changing in SH in the fantasy scene in the beginning? When does she say she is changing in the Pilot? This has piqued my curiosity.

I was reading it and I just came across it.I think she was writting in her juornal.

Also - a number of the episode summaries seem to refer to Nasedo/Harding and the alien/shapeshifter that we tenderly refer to as Tic Tac as if they are one and the same, but I have a hard time with that scenario - and like the idea that there is another shapeshifter/protector out there watching over them. Plus, why always use the tic tacs in those scenes, but NEVER with Harding?? Big Inconsistency there!

Zero
I Shal Believe

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Why is Niko always complaining about being a little (okay so he's not 'litte' ) kid (he's more upset about his looks I think) if he is a shapeshifter? He was telling Isabelle about how he was 'quite a hunk' back on their world. If he is a shapeshifter - couldn't he shapeshift into a hunk (Max look a like - now that's got possibilities!)?

LOL that probably made no sense since I'm sick and not thinking clearly. Sorry if I just wasted space! My brain is not turned on right now.

Rachel

Thanks believer_evans & chica!

quote:Originally posted by Starbox:
Redhawk - with your awesome photo skills - I bet you could "merge" the images together so that the orb swirl was on top of Max and Liz.

Good idea. I'll put it on my list of things to do.

quote:Originally posted by azcat:
Then when Liz convinces Ava to tell them what happened to Max, she admits, for the first time, to anyone (in my recollection), and especially since her sacrifice, how very, very much she loves Max. And you KNOW Michael and Iz were listening! So, after Max and Iz talk, she probably (how could she not?) TELLS Max what Liz said! I'm sure everyone here has thought of that, but it was the first time it reached my fuzziness.
Aha! Good point! You're not the only one who's fuzzy lately.

So many of you have wonderful theories about the prophecy. I'm still in the midst of deciding exactly what this prophecy might be.

Garion realises, through his adventures, that he only THOUGHT he was in love with Zubrette (although he always thinks of her fondly). Remember how the first time he sees Ce'Nedra, there is the shock of recognition? Unlike Max, he did not have his destined 'bride' rammed down his throat. By the time he found out, he had already fallen in love with her.

With Max, having had a previous history, Tess could be his childhood sweetheart that he thought he loved, and is giving up for his 'Destiny' in Liz.

The Belgariad had a couple of Orbs too!

WR

I finally got to watch MITC - my city showed it six days late! Since I cheated and read everyone's comments before, there was one statement that Lanerk made that just jumped out at me: "Change takes time". Now I know that he was referring to the political situation but I can't help but take a broader view that Liz has slowly been changing this past year. Just as the podsters' gifts are growing and changing, so is Liz.

Tasyfa - great observation about Tess's reactions to the granilith.

In the books I've read regarding prophecy, sometimes people try to force reality to take a certain fork to fulfill a benefitial prophecy. If you've read the Stone of Tear books, the Sisters of the Light do that a lot. They think they know what the prophecy means and how to fulfill it so things work out right. What if that has happened here?

Nasedo and the clan think they know how to make everything work out. They are forcing events. Isn't it possible on Twilo that Zan was waiting for someone to walk in the room? Zan would have been a good husband as Tess said because Zan/Max would have known his unhappiness was not Tess's fault. Tess on Twilo would not have admitted she was not Zan's twin soul.

Now on Earth, Nasedo has tried to force events again. He has told Tess about the prophecy and her role in it. However, Nasedo is wrong. Possibly, the NY Podsters had their protector for a while. He saw that Zan and Ava were not twin soul's and they did not fulfill prophecy. Realizing this, the NY protector would have taught the prophecy as prophecy and not as roles the podsters had to play. This telling of the prophecy may have given Ava the insight to recognize how Liz fulfilled it in a way Ava was never able to.

Nasedo, having lost 3 of his 4 charges, would have rationalized that events required to fulfill prophecy would have happened if they were together (I never thought he was smart). When in fact, Max was for the time actually able to follow the correct path, since no one was forcing event.

Let's say that the Prophecy said the Chosen will declare his love at the banks of the river Styx robbing Hades of a Tenant. This means he brings his love back from the dead.

Maybe on Twilo, Zan saved Ava from a near death. That's close enough Ava must be the one. This is the misconception Nasedo labors under. The New Yorkers know differently and this is what Ava reacts to - Prophecy actually being fulfilled in front of her.

Love reading all the theories. I have plenty of my own but no time to type them out.

ITA, about the Y-Y...twin souls idea.

BYE

Anywho, I would like to present a further addition to it. The podsters and other aliens powers have a lot to do with connecting with the mind with both functional (locks and changing structures) and inanimate object (rocks and such). Perhaps FM found out that in time Liz would have developed a strong gift(s) if they hadn't cemented their relationship. Perhaps with true marrages or bonded pairs, they imprint on each other. I'm not saying that marrage or cementing a relationsip automatically causes this, but free choice of the 2 does. Could that be the reason for the breakup. To give time for the changes to be completed?

Also, with the podster symbol (the 4 circles with the commas in each and the X connecting them), could Liz be or become the X connection? I don't know, it might be my haluciation but I thought that Tess at first was looking at Max and in a later picture she looked like she was looking toward the street. Could she have seen Liz also? (And why didn't Tess scream or make a noise anyway???) Could Liz be a catalyst that maybe doesn't have her own powers but strengthens or is an extension of those that she is in contact with? She was able to reach Max without Izabel's continued help. (Isabel stopped and looked at Liz before Liz even made the connection to Max.)

Call me loony if you want or wishfull thinking but what's your oppinions?

Starbox: I was lurking over at the Signs and Symbols thread and noticed the picture of Liz with her mother in their livingroom. You pointed out that the sun mirror had V shape in it. If you look closer to the mirror the V shape looks like a rosery necklace hanging from it. Being a religious symbol,there are all kinds of things which fit with Liz as virgin/protector theory.

just a thought, or maybe you already noticed . I think you have great ideas and insights.

chicatron

We don't know exactly what it means. We are being led to believe that Liz is more important somehow than originally thought. NEways Ava left before she could give any more info so I dunno how (and if) they're going to further develop this what with continuity issues flying left and right

Starbox: I was lurking over at the Signs and Symbols thread and noticed the picture of Liz with her mother in their livingroom. You pointed out that the sun mirror had V shape in it. If you look closer to the mirror the V shape looks like a rosery necklace hanging from it. Being a religious symbol,there are all kinds of things which fit with Liz as virgin/protector theory.

just a thought, or maybe you already noticed . I think you have great ideas and insights.

chicatron

Thanks Chicatron!! - I had not noticed the rosary :-) - actually I think EVID has a pet theory about Liz as the Virgin Mary. Notice Liz's stance in MITC when she appears to Max - she is in the traditional Virgin Mary pose. She also looks like the Virgin Mary in EOTW when she is playing "bride".

I just hope she doesnt have to *stay* a virgin indefinately. :-)

BTW - I love all the prophecy theories! Wonder if the prophecy is in GC's book?? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I remember being in Elementary school playing a game called "four square." I just read some of the posts here and the words "four square" just gave me a "flash" of me playing that game. I was so cute then

They have some really interesting theories over on the Chads thread. And Labrynth pointed out there that in 245SO Maria says,"I used to imagine my dad would come back and take me and my mom away and we'd go live like royalty."

I'm toying around with a theory: Ava may have loved Zan, but not enough to save his life when it meant going against Lonnie and Rath. Maybe Tess is the same, but Liz (as we know) is different; she would never have let them kill Max.

I also think it's significant that she DIDN'T freak out when Max told her that the reason he'd lied the first time was because of something Liz said. She seemed confused, saying that Liz hadn't even seen it yet. I think there's a deeper reason for that--I think she knows that what Liz was saying is the truth, and is puzzled as to how Liz got this info.
I think that Nikolas, and the dupes, have been putting Tess (& Ava) down for some reason. Perhaps, back on Twilo, she was weak; or the wrong alliance, or something. They are definitely all treating her as being lower in the pecking order.

As for The Granolyth, Tess may remember something about it, and its properties. Yes, Lonnie and Rath were letting on that it was just a trinket; but this was after they found out that the NM4 didn't remember Twilo. It doesn't reveal what they truly now, or what Nikolas may have told them (true, or misleading). But if only Tess (of the NM4, anyway) knows about The Granolyth... how does Liz know?

Liz has been giving too many false, or at least "off ", reasons for her actions. Yet she knows things she shouldn't, and won't say why. To Tess, at least, something odd must be taking shape...

The WB wants to know what your favorite episode this season was :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

If Liz is now changed, then is she "more" acceptable to become something solid in Max's life? Could she become the "new bride" for the King if she really is changed?

If Kyle is now changed, can he pursue Tess? There seemed to be some heat between them on several moments. Perhaps what Max and Liz need is for a relationship to begin between Kyle and Tess for them to be able to actively be together. This way the Royal Four remain together - but with different mates.

Does Liz now have alien DNA within her and can she now replace Tess even though the extent of her "change" isn't yet known?

Starbox - Thanks for showing the similarity of the twin souls theme as it pertains to both LN endings. I love these visualizations you all come up with.

Melodious - You are a marvel! I don't know what line of work you are in, but if you aren't somehow in creative writing, you have missed your calling.

Loved all the prophecies--they all make so much sense, yet are so different. Now what will I writers come up with?

Grace Kel - Re: the clicking. I also noticed that the first time I saw it, and at first I was sure that Tess is no longer Tess but now Lonnie, and that the creaking (like a rusty door hinge) was her getting the hang of the sound of Tess's voice, but Saturday night I was watching an older season 2 episode (sorry, can't remember which one it was) and Tess kind of squeaks (but not as noticably as in MITC) when she first starts to speak. I am now thinking it may have no plot significance, just Emilie needing a little lubrication before she opens her mouth!

I don't mean to leave out mention of anyone else and their wonderful thoughts. You are ALL great, but very voluble--I'm having a hard time keeping up with this thread!

Chica

Rosary beads on mirror and I think the mirror is the Star of David.

Cross sticker on lockers, they only appear when Liz is standing next to them.

Brody said, "you can tell people you've seen the Virgin Mary and they'll light candles outside your bathroom." Liz loves her candles.

Liz has said far to many times to count, "Oh My God," and not like a valley girl,(nothing against them) but with much sincerity.

The wrap over her head resembles the Virgin Mary.

The Astral Projection or Dream Walk looks like the stance of the Virgin Mary.

These are all off the top of my head, so I might have forgotten a few, but I'm sure you can all see a clear connection here.

One more thing, I forgot who posted the theroy about Max changing Liz in his subconsious. Well I also have pondered this idea myself. I was watching Toyhouse today and this is the lyric I herd when Max was laying on his bed, "Has to be a change, I'm sure." I just couldn't believe it, when I herd this, and you even imagined him thinking of this in bed.

Here is that pic from Toyhouse.

I believe in you. ~Max~
Evid

I'm puzzled as to how K'var trying to mind-rape an astro projection (Air!) would kill him? Bouncing back wouldn't even give him a headache! Please explain?

BTW, if you want an astro projection, how about Liz going to sleep and, almost there, finds herself in Max's bed? And he sees her there? Of course, she would disappear as soon as she falls into Morpheo's arms, but.. oh, the possibilities the next day!!! <sigh>
(Sorry, I'm getting desperate and can't wait 'till their reunion!! and I mean CAN'T!).

4EVERYOUNG: Agree with all your reasons why Tess cannot be the Guardian of the Granolith! Of course, you agreed with me, too! Seriously, no matter what the writers do to make her more agreeable, they always leave a possibility that everything may not be as clear as it seems and the thought of Liz saying "I don't trust her", keeps coming to mind! If she says it, there is a powerful reason behind it!

As anybody thought of the possibility that NOBODY in Twilo knows what the Granolith is for? And that is part of the legend? That the great King who frees them from evil and oppression will find the way to operate it, together with the girl from a far away place that he brought from the dead? I know Vanessa wanted it, but it may have been to pray to it because they may believe it has powers that would help them?

Dreamdancer: Ordered Wheel of Time. Will tell you after I read it! Thank you!

Dayneen: Sorry, but... Liz saw the V formation at the end of Balance - at the beginning of December! Way before Nacero, Tess and everybody else showed up in Roswell. The V formation is not associated with them but with her! Hence what happened in Sexual Healing (February 20th).

Wishful Thinking: I don't think Max knows. He doesn't. I don't want him to know. He has to forgive her and want her back because he loves her and can't live without her. Because she is his balance. Period. It won't be so poignant and so great a love if he takes her back because somebody told him the truth! He'll find out AFTER they are together again. That's my version, I like it and I'm sticking to it!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

BLUECORNMOON--I agree with you I would like MAX to show a little BLIND FAITH in LIZ the way LIZ showed it to him in TLV.

And I don't think Nicholas would try mind-raping an astral projection because she would have astral protection--*poof*, back to Roswell. But if he tried M-rping a Temp, well, he might get scrambled thoughts and break the connection.

1 refuse to get back with him and tell one she love him in a life and death moment.

2 Liz know about the granilith and never seen (light come on)

3 the summit, the three conditions that Kavier give and one of them is the granilith.

4 she tried to set him and Tess together.

5 Liz kind of directing what Max need to do but not in a way of telling him.

Max is not a dumb. If the granilith is not powerful why do the five worlds want it? The five worlds had been fighting since he left and still fighting for him and the granilith. Max now know that he is not just a pass King. He know that there is a group of people fighting for him and the granilith is important. He also know he hold the faith of five worlds in his hand and granilith can be something(weapon or something). Max is not dumb and he saw the pieces of the puzzle. there must be something in his mind about Liz had to have connection with something and it is about them. He can see Liz should not tell them anything about what it is and he should trust on that.

That may explain why Max are so clam in MITC when he and Liz were together and the reason why he did not ask question relate to aliens and the granilith. Of cause the Kyle thing, first it did not hit him as a aliens relate but it may hit he when he ask Liz about it.

RW: Love your prophercy! I also like the phrase "each with their respective courts" which would explain why Iz and Tess are important to the Royal 4 (I always think there has to be a reason they are sent) and we could give importance to Maria and Alex too.

Zero: I agree that Max definitely recognized Liz in 1st grade, but I also think that it's because they are soulmates. Wouldn't it be romantic that he recognizes his love the first time he ever sees her?

Rockgoddes: Like your theory about Ava. It would certainly explain her reaction. I am also thinking about how Ava was treated as the lowest in the NY 4. If the dupes didn't believe they are the ones in the prophercy, then Ava's role is simply Zan's bride, not an equal partner of him. However, I am also thinking that Ava/Tess must had some importance back home and for the Royal 4 (refering to FM). Here's what I think might explain things:

Suppose Ava was a warrior of some sort back on Twilo, powerful (not in her influence at court but in terms of her ability to do mind wrap and perhaps other powers) but not of high birth. One day in battle, perhaps trying to save Zan, Ava is gravely injured and Zan healed her. Ava fell in love with Zan out of gratitude and people thought she might be the savior foretold in prophercy and forces Zan to marry her. Knowing that she's not the one (b/c he doesn't love her) but having nobody else to marry, Zan agrees. On the day of their wedding, fearful of the prophercy coming true and make Zan too powerful for him to defeat, Khivar chose to attack and killed everyone. They are sent to Earth, Ava with them b/c they still thought she's the one. However, overtime Khivar's (and hopefully Zan's?) people realize Ava can't be the one foretold in the prophercy or else Khivar would never be able to defeat them, that's why Nicholas treated Tess w/ contempt b/c he thinks she doesn't matter. The truth of the matter is that Ava/Tess still helps the group with her abilities as a warrior and that's why she's a part of the Royal 4. However, since she's not born and raise with the rest of the Royal 4 (I assume Michael must have been close to Zan/Max throughout their life in order to be appointed as 2nd in command, and Isabelle/Villandra of course is raised with her brother), they are not as concerned with her as they are with each other, so Lonnie and Rath treated Ava badly and Max/Is/Michael left her in the cave b/c she hasn't been with them all the time, even in the past. What do you all think?

Did you also notice that when she was projecting across the street , she didn't even use her voice!!! cool.

chicatron

I'm so glad you ordered the book I hope you know that there are 9 books now the latest just came out in November each book is about a thosand pages long so you will definetly have some reading to do I hope you like them

I think that Liz telling Max about the granolith was a BIG factor in Max's decision. But, like he tells Isabel he couldn't leave them behind. I think it wasn't just Michael and Isabel he was talking about!

I have been downloading Roswell MP3s and listening to the songs I particularly liked. Remember that one catchy one when Kyle came back from football camp? It was by the Dandy Warhols, and its title was Bohemian Like You. The scene is of Kyle sitting around doing nothing while waiting for his dad to pick him up. The chorus goes something like this:

Cause I'm like you, yeah I'm like you, and I'm feeling so bohemian like you

etc.

Great song. Fun. Anyway, then we find out he's all buddhist (a BIG change), and he almost hooks up with Tess. I think there is a very loose possibility that Kyle has had a slightly alien change also. Somebody prove me wrong, please, cause that would be too weird.

People keep mentioning the Wheel of Time books, which I LOVE. The protagonist, Rand, has 3 loves and each bring their own skill to help Rand reach his goal. I don't want Tess and Liz to share Max the way those 3 share Rand.

Did you also notice that when she was projecting across the street , she didn't even use her voice!!! cool.

chicatron

Chicatron,
You're right! Could Max have sensed Liz there?? I mean he was in New York City, and you don't just happen to look over and see someone in New York. Ummm, something to ponder.

a. Historically, all people whose name starts with S help the podsquad - Sorenson's bag had a mountain sign similar to that of the pod chamber. Maybe he is not going to be an enemy!
b. I know Miss Tess mind-warped everybody, but Vanessa's stare, directed at the cyclotron's door, was so intense and fixed, that I thought for sure she was watching Max as he entered and exited that door! Tess, with voice full of wonder (I think) asking Grandma Crawford "tell me how she was at my age", in Harvest is becoming more and more sinister with each passing day!
c. Vanessa knew Michael killed that person. I wonder who told her? It's either Pierce (and since it seems they were hiding things from each other, it's not a possibility), or ... Tess?
c. By the same token, Nacero's "my job is to protect THE ROYAL FOUR", while staring at Liz makes me think he knew perfectly well who she is - and he was afraid of her! Also, his lascivious look at Liz, before departing with Vanessa, is becoming more ominous by the minute!
Conclusion: Don't discount Tess not being the outstanding citizen she is being portrayed as being. There is a lot still hidden under the surface with that one!

On to other, more pleasant, things: Tasyfa: thank you for the fanfic! It was touching, well written and .. boy, do you know our Max and Liz!

Wouldn't it be something if somehow the podsters translated the book Tess removed from the wall at the library, and found that it contained one of the prophecies many have speculated about on this forum. Tess would be most certainly hacked!!!

Not going to comment, still trying to mull over all the interesting ideas!

You know, I am new here, and have missed the speculation, not to mention that I didn't even see that show. Could some kind soul tell me exactly why the book was in the library wall? Thank you.

I also noticed in Wipeout, that Nicholas looks directly at her when he talks to Max about trusting the wrong people, and that she seemed to totally lose it when she thought the granilith's location was about to be divulged. In addition, there was her strange reactions to mention of the granilith in NY. Something is definately up with that girl, and I am not ready to give up my suspicions of her motives just yet.

Azcat--in "Foursquare" Tess leads Max and Liz to the Public Library (via going with Kyle) so that she could "show" them the destiny book. In Blind Date Michael navigates the V constellation and he and Isabell send the symbol (.) to Nasedo. This same symbol is on the Destiny book. I believe that each position on the map is an indication of something important to the Royal 4. Tess waves her hand over the wall of the "Ancient Languages" section and removes the book.

Later on, Tess comes to Max's room and says to him "You want to know don't you?" He answers "Tell me. Tell me what I am feeling?" Tess brings with her this book. After Max remembers that she is one of them, he tells Michael and Isabell.

In "Max to the Max" Tess explains that their destiny is in the book. Pictures of all four of them as adults (so to speak) are shown with a story that is printed in another language.

My question would be why hasn't anyone demanded to learn this language from Tess (assuming she knows how to read it)? Does the Destiny book only show their destiny or does it explain the political problems that were apparent in their past lives?

I'm also hoping that the Native American connection is brought back in. It is such a natural fit for a show set in NM.

Off to work!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Okay I just wanted to point out again that Harding may not be Nasedo. The pod squad automatically assumed that Harding was Nasedo. And I think Harding is one evil shapeshifter who had is own agenda. Harding saw from the moment that he met the Max, Michael, and Isabel that they didn't remember anything. OH...and by the way if Harding was there to protect them why all the mystery. And that comment that that he said to Tess about Isabel the whole "what is she doing here thing". Also note Harding's attitude towards humans. He didn't exactly like the idea of Liz, Alex, and Maria. Riverdog had said that Nasedo trusted him with his life. Now does Ed Harding fit that description. Do you think that Harding was the dupes protector?

Another thing, why didn't Michael question about who killed Hank? Why didn't he further question the sheriff about those supposed "tourture animal like sounds"? It just surprise me that Max, Isabel, and Michael wanna find out where they come from, but they don't question things. It's like they know that Tess has the power of manipulation(mind control whatever same thing) and even tried to use it on them, and now suddenly they trust her. I would not trust that person if they tried to manipulate me, and then all of a sudden they want to be my new best friend.
God, there is so much that Max, Isabel, and Michael could find out, but why aren't they out there looking. I think they should go quiz Riverdog some more. I think he knows more than he lets on. And why didn't Valenti ask his dad more about what really happened with the whole Shilo murders?

About the granolith: I think Liz is the key. That's probably the only reason why Tess hasn't turn it over to the skins. Is it possible that Liz has the key to the granolith and doesn't know it. I saw a picture of a little crystal thing that FMax put in it.

YES!!!

THIS inconsistency is driving me NUTS! Tell me they're not going to try and convince me/us that Tic-Tac and Nasedo/Harding are the same SS!?!

She knows a TON (I would guess) about Twilo and the politics and life as they never knew it. Why not just sit her in a room and shoot questions at her until they get all the answers and Liz and Max live happily ever after.. I mean, and everyone's safe!?

(I can't add images sorry)Think of a stick figure girls hair that curls/flips up at the ends. Maria's hair in season 1. Is a symbol for gifts and resources made available to a person without having consciously sought.

The also talk about X. X over or very close to another ideogram means no longer counts, wrong, forbidden, cancelled. What if the podster's symbol is actually saying the past relationships didn't work out and must not be allowed to happen again? That the couples connected by the x are forbidden.

X also means 5 in Chinese ideography. Can stand for crossbreed between different spieces. What if it is actually spelling out how the podsters were created. Max & Isabel were crossed with humans while Tess & Michael were crossed with something else? It might help explain why Tess & Michael have such different personalities, untrusting.

I know we've talked about nature vs nuture but what if it really is nature.

As opposed to Tess reading the book, I had really wished they'd let Ava skim through it. The Dupes seemingly remember the past life (granted, also could be questionable). I'm not entirely sure *what* Tess remembers. Ava also seemed to me more unbiased than Tess. She didn't seem to want Max at all (not only that, she also seemed to KNOW Zan didn't love her... I still get the impression from Tess she believes Max "will come around"... ahem, no). I feel if Tess read the book and understood it, whatever it said - and I suppose this is born from my ever-presence distrust of her - she'd still make it seem Max is *her* destiny. Simply so her place amongst the podsters isn't *endangered* at all.

Are Tess' memories indeed authentic? I don't believe she's lying about remembering things, but are they protoAva's memories? They might not be. If the protoRoyals could *connect* as well, protoAva might have connected with someone before and the memories she seemingly has possibly might not be hers. There's also the very likely chance they might have been planted by Harding or *programmed* by the alien engineers. Why would Harding (or the Twilonian engineers) *plant* these (Zan loving her) memories in Tess (further encouraged by Momogram and Edsedo)?...

Max, Mike and Isabel don't seem to remember *anything* about the past life. The Roswell Royals are supposed to be the ONLY Royals, am I right? The ones hidden away in a small, inconsequential town in the middle of a desert WITH the Granilith. Well if Tess IS a part of this group (barring the Ava/Tess switched theories, which I still feel are plausible). I feel NONE of the Roswell podsters remember (or will remember) what *really* happened on Twilo. I also feel the alien book might indeed say Tess and Max are the destiny, they need to mate, etc etc.

The Twilonian-Royal supporters believed this was the way to victory? Possibly *erasing* the Royal Four's (ahem) "defective" or "unacceptable" memories and replacing them with new ones that they felt would insure their victory (Zan loving Ava for example)? An attempt to correct their Royals? Possibly to strengthen alliances that were weak in the alien life? I feel this would mean Tess' memories are false, the dreams/fantasies Max was having of Tess were planted and the dreams Iz/Mike were having were planted.

I'm a FIRM believer in *making your own destiny*. I also doubt we should trust any (possible) plan by an alien species that did such a *bang up* job in ONE past lifetime (ahem, the Royals DIED more than likely under the *guidance* of these SAME aliens). I say, let the podsters make their OWN decisions!! Of course, the Royals probably made their own decisions in the alien life as well (which led to failure), but I can't think *all* of the decisions were solely formed on their shoulders (their were no advisors whispering bad suggestions in their ears? There must have been, especially for Zan who was quite possibly a *new* King when he died). The new *Royal Four* are already (basically) flying solo again (that's not before this *supposed* protector drops in, leaves them Tess and basically tells them NOTHING about the past life before he's offed by Whitaker). WHY should the podsters listen to *anything* the Twilonians say or *demand*??

quote:I wish they would've gotten more info out of Courtney, and the dupes.

I wish they had done this as well. However, who's to say there aren't more *Courtneys* (aka Michael Worshippers and/or Skins willing to fight on the Royal Four's side, not just Michael) out there? Maybe these *Michael Worshippers* might still *enlighten* us?

I'm also hoping for more Michael Worshippers to show up because they were also seemingly against "destiny" (candyclanner and dreamer rearing their heads now ). "Destiny" says Max (Zan) is the unequivocal leader and Mike (Rath) is *betrothed* to Iz (Vilondra)... well Michael Worshippers seem to believe Max wasn't the end all, be all of leaders. However that's just their perception of it. They could be more or less right yet not have known the WHOLE story or they're simply just very biased. Courtney tried to *get it on* with Michael (hence obviously didn't support the Iz/Mike pairing, knew there wasn't any real connection there to begin with or was attempting to further derail any possible Iz/Mike connection that might be formed [even though Courtney knew about Maria/Michael's relationship & feelings]). Bring on the Michael Worshippers!

Melodious

I have been lurking around for a while now, and thought that I would finally come out from the shadows! I love everyone's ideas so much. Before reading these past few threads, I never really had considered Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology, but now I am obsessed with the idea. It makes so much sense and I can't stop thinking about all the wonderful possibilities there are.

What to say...hmm....
Zero -- Thank you so much for the wonderful intro's to the threads, it makes it easy for a newbie like myself to try and catch up and fit in !

Everyone has been wondering about why Earth was chosen for the podsters. It has been mentioned that all of the podsters powers are human, just very advanced. Do all Twilonians have similar powers or just the Royal Podsters? Perhaps Earth was the only place where the Royal Four could be hidden where they would gain an advantage over their enemies (whatever it is that makes them strong as a unit of four like FMax says). The Skins were a relatively weak presence on Earth (considering that they were dependent on the husks and lotion), and the representatives at the Summit couldn't even be brought to Earth for whatever reason (distance doesn't make enough sense to me) so perhaps Earth is the only place where they could have this advantage over their enemies (K'var, skins, whoever else) and that this advantage includes the "activation of the granolith" which I believe requires Liz's help (whether by prophecy or protectorship).

REMSleep

It would also be a good idea to show the Royal Four reading up on war tactics/politics to better prepare them for battle. I know, I know, alien battles are different, but a little knowledge wouldn't hurt the pod squad.

TPTB have so many opportunities to give us a little more faith in the Royal Four's ability to be prepared for their enemies. And they could do it in very small ways (like I stated above--just like they showed how Michael was developing his powers).

I'm so glad you ordered the book I hope you know that there are 9 books now the latest just came out in November each book is about a thosand pages long so you will definetly have some reading to do I hope you like them

[/B]

BOOK NINE?

Jeez, I stopped reading this half way through the Crown of Swords, because I *HATE* reading a book, and then waiting months for the next installment. ( This was about 4 years ago ). Is Book 9 the last or are there more?

(Sorry for the non Liz post.)

Two Stars, and I'm now a Fan!

WR

One other thing (before I quit boring you)
I am convinced that one of the possible many things that the granolith can do is to be a transporter (ie: Star Trek) Whitaker says in her journal, 1) Their mission was a one way ticket. and 2) That her only hope of going home was to find the granolith.
She basically says the same thing to Iz in Surprise. Has this already been agreed upon? But I do think that Liz has something to do with it. Perhalps Grandma Claudia has a/some crystals packed away in her posessions.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

Anyways, those are my thoughts!

Anne

Interesting theory, and a great deal more plausible than the one we were actually given in EOTW. But several problems - why wouldn't Future Max simply tell Liz of her powers, and of the powers of the Granolith? This way, the group would be informed enough to change the future, yet Present Max and Liz would still be able to pursue a relationship (well, as able as they were before FM arrived).

I think that the reason why they were lacking what they needed in the future to defeat the Skins was because Liz HAD NOT developed her powers!!!!! Maybe if she had, things would had been better!!!

I mean, maybe we are not hearing the whole story, maybe Tess left and was behind some of the fighting, I mean, she knew they were fighting, why would stay gone??? I mean, so is she just here to get with Max or does she actually care about human & alienkind??? Just a thought, what you guys think????

We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, finding “clues” to Liz’s importance to the Alien Mythology and other relevant topics – and there are a lot of them! Shapeshifter and Qfanny have graciously agreed to set up a single link to the former threads that are available to read. You can find it at the following link http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology

The following is a summary (sorry it is so long!) of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I try to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled, however, not all theories are covered in-depth. Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance!

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that connection irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t let go of the connection, but after events in NY is willing to give their friendship another try, and that there is MORE to that connection as we have always assumed. Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions re: that connection have been answered in this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz – whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. After MITC, we now KNOW that LIZ HAS CHANGED (or is changing – maybe the change that FM said she had to have occur!) as a result of Max “bringing her back,” but Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply that something more is involved – but more on that later! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squads planet? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? But if so, why did she disappear in Wipeout?)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” a predecessor to Liz?
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.)
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her?
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Twilo? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story – she had heard this story foretold before? ;
· Could it just be Liz's advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the many theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special. I guess we will never know, unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones – anything is possible??) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?) – they obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were acquaintances and lab partners. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that are all human (according to Harding). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking an already – yet dormant – power within her? Ava’s reaction seems to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle? There seems to be more to it than that!

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins – are her parents her true birth parents or is she adopted like the Evans kids, does she have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race, why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble – and how this plays into the connection with Max and her new found “abilities/powers” (one of which appears to be astral projection? Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur? We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ people from long ago? How does the Granolith fit into this? We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? It is obviously of great importance – maybe the Holy Grail of V constellation? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time (apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way?). (So, many questions – still! … !)

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his “destiny” on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a human alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction – maybe she had “heard” the prophecy or Zan’s searching was tied to it somehow! Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the podsquad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are “human.” Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters? Though the Dupes do seem to have memories, at least Lonnie does, of the previous life, though we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time!) Are the visions Max’s alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history destined to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the secrets being kept by the podsters from one-another. We now know that Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself (Zan was killed through treachery on Twilo, then Zan-reborn was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no??

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons now. Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Now Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again.

The symbolism throughout the seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often. Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! There is a prominent picture of a Viking (?) Ship that is tied to a tale directly relevant to our star-crossed lovers and their trials. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. Then there is the dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. I don’t have time to get into the symbolism of the Dragon now, but will add something next time I update the Intro. There are lots of others! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent for that!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? Could it be Liz? (Though most accept that Tess/Ava were the “bride.”) And why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day.) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. (Zan and Ava didn’t seem to be working at producing off-spring.) Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts – why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection?) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the podsquad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!)

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, and connecting with Max to save his life in NY.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max ‘fall out of love with her’). She could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we found out is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment (who knows who to believe on this one??). Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” Max, and bring him into “balance”? Could she possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing, and how the visions play into the powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “planted” visions like Tess is able to do). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps!) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions of Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifter, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has this come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run”? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully, and the third being the path we are on now!) OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug him – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed!!

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the podsquad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Ummmmm?

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Recently, “Run, Lola, Run” was referred to (Surprise) as the story of Liz’s life. Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the podsquad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seem to be confined to their husks. But the Skins and Max’s alien predecessor’s kind seem to have been from different races. Many of us think that the podsquad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without notice? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race of aliens on Earth (a third race of aliens)? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? If Ava knew that Liz had been changed by Max’s healing, shouldn’t Harding have known? AND if he did know, why didn’t he divulge this information? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee” – and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection.

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across. I have added dates from the Crashdown Timeline and the Whitaker Diaries, but they are questionable, and have no basis in episodes aired, so take them with a grain of salt.
Finally, DATES - there seems to be a question of timing - here is another rundown:
1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
1993 – Maria’s Dad leaves
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
11/11/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex end up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max and Liz share first kiss! (Heatwave)
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this – WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

EC2k

You have to ask yourself why was Max's race able to COMBINE DNA so that the four could fit in. In some way we must be compatible. They could have gone anywhere in the universe why did they pick earth? Is it so far fetched to think that we are a branch of their race, with possible dormant capabilities? That Liz, because of her connection to Max is the first of our human race to experience the next evoulution? And that for Max and his race to survive, they must have our selflessness (the ability to give one's life for another). Mabye it is the lesson (however far they are advanced) they never learned. Mabye Max was sent here to learn it from Liz. (Remember the guy (Max) from New York was waiting for someone not (Tess)? (Sorry can't remember their names) Max in any of his forms is waiting for Liz. Why is that drive so strong? And while Tess is able to physically protect Max and the rest, the real survival of his race depends upon Max learning from Liz what true love (selfless love) really is and teaching it to others. Mabye THAT is why Liz is so important, and why some of us can't seem to give up the idea, that in the end, Max will always belong to Liz.

Just one thing I haven't been able to get out of my mind since MITC. When Ava told Liz that she could contact Max and Isabel insisted that her's is the only voice Max would hear no matter where he was, Liz resisted because she said she was scared. She was so scared and she said she didn't know why. I want to know why? Yeah I know just finding out that you have been "changed" is pretty scary but if I knew the man that I loved was in danger and that I could help, I would do anything within my "power" to help.
I wonder if it had anything to do with what future Max said "You're not letting yourself change"

Ooops! What I wanted to say was - I'm glad you mentioned this - Larek isn't mentioned for attacks - why??

Anne

I was looking at a web site about symbols, this is funny because the site was for Head Stones. They gave the meaning of the symbols so you could pick one out to get ingraved on a stone. Anyway, I came across a symbol that I know none of us has ever thought about, yet Liz has two sets of them heading up to her bedroom. Max just loves to use one set. Have you guessed what it is I'm refering too?

STEPS, and the meaning behind them fits right in with Liz. Read on.

Steps - A common symbol used around the world, steps generally mean Ascension, Stages or Levels. Their is also symbolism in objects that surround or are a part of the steps. In Romanesque art, steps represent the relationship between worlds. In many religions steps, or a ladder, are seen as the path to god. For alchemists of the Middle Ages, steps were associated with the change or a altered form.

Stages or Levels, Relationship between Worlds, Path to God and Change or Altered in Form. I think the set designers wanted us to know just how important the girl who lives up those steps is. Now who thinks that we read way to much into this show?

Their is also symbolism in objects that surround or are a part of the steps.
I have not looked into this yet, but I'm sure we will find more clues searching around the steps. So keep your eyes open, your index finger on pause and let's find those clues.

Evid

Originally posted by shapeshifter:
So if they don't 'cement' things, will Tess try to do it first to have influence over the King?
Azcat's reply:
Ack - vomit, puke, yuck, hork, pass out GROSS! Someone please say Max would never be such a... a... gag. Yuck.

Excuse me? Max married Tess! We have three seperate sources for this! Whether they took vows to be faithful "till death do us part" or "forever", she does have a prior claim on him. And is there nothing romantic about loving the same person, even beyond death?

Originally posted by bluecornmoon:
Wishful Thinking: I don't think Max knows. He doesn't. I don't want him to know. He has to forgive her and want her back because he loves her and can't live without her. Because she is his balance. Period. It won't be so poignant and so great a love if he takes her back because somebody told him the truth! He'll find out AFTER they are together again. That's my version, I like it and I'm sticking to it!

No. Liz walked out on him at the end of Destiny. In S&B, Liz made it clear that she did not want to go back to Max. There's no question of "taking her back" if she does not want to go! Furthermore, he'd be foolish to. Would you embrace someone you couldn't trust? I wouldn't! How can Max trust someone who is obviously deceiving him? She does not trust him with the truth, she manipulates him (and Tess), she stabs him in the back (with Kyle), and yet says she wants to be friends?

Yes, yes, we know; but Max doesn't. Until Liz said she loved him in front of Isabel and Michael, she had not let on that she still felt for him. Until she actually saved his life (MitC), Max has been pointedly abandoned by the one he loved. It's only after Liz has let it be known that she feels some affection for Max, that he responds at all. Liz is the key.

Really, that's my point. I'm not a relationship shipper. It's not "Max and Liz" or "Max and Tess"; "Kyle and Liz", or even "Maria and Liz". Roswell starts, with a reading from Liz's diary. It's "The Liz Show", how Liz deals with the people (humans and aliens) who are her friends and enemies. It's also about her growing in ability, wisdom, and maturity. We change, as we grow; Liz has done both, and will continue to do so. This is her Destiny.

Oh, what exquisite torture: I have just forwarded through all the episodes that I thought I viewed the other night, bypassing all, well OK most, of the good parts, listening to *Tess*-- Yick!! And I couldn't find it! I think it might have been in the conversation between Liz and Tess in EOTW, but I've listened & listened and can't hear it now, and frankly, the nausea from overdosing on Tess is catching up with me. So never mind my drink of water theory--but if I ever hear it again, I'll let you know!

Chica

YES, I noticed that! I also noticed that Kivar was not the first to attack, contrary to what we might expect ffrom what we know of his character. And, the older woman (in the sweats--I forget her name) seemed really annoyed that Nicholas showed up as Kivar's rep.

Also, when she said that they needed a solution, and Cirro agreed, it seemed to me like EVERYONE looked at Max like they were expecting him to hand down a solution. Even Nicholas paused, and then when Max remained silent, he brought up kivar's ridiculous deal. Did anyone else notice this? I think it's significant, maybe in terms of Max as the High King.

Some hellos: bluecornmoon I have come to agree that Max must accept Liz back into his life unconditionally, believing that she did sleep with Kyle. Under NO circumstances can Liz actually TELL him what happened--that would be breaking her word to FM, and Liz has too much integrity to do that. I personally think it would be interesting if Max only found out she hadn't slept with Kyle when Max & Liz "go to Gomez"...but I'm known for being a little strange! BTW, glad you liked the story--I can only wish I really DID know Max that well

EC2k David Eddings rocks, eh? I've been thinking about this prophecy idea of yours, and of ascat's ideas. I need to form it a little better in my head before posting, though.

I'll be back shortly

Reggie: You said: "Excuse me? Max married Tess! We have three seperate sources for this! Whether they took vows to be faithful "till death do us part" or "forever", she does have a prior claim on him. And is there nothing romantic about loving the same person, even beyond death?"

Yes, however... I don't think there was love in that marriage. Otherwise, Max wouldn't have imprinted himself on a 6 year old in Kindergarden and Tess would not be so willing to "trim the lamp" with somebody else. I think she is more in love with the idea of being Queen, of having power than anything else!

Then you said: "No. Liz walked out on him at the end of Destiny. In S&B, Liz made it clear that she did not want to go back to Max. There's no question of "taking her back" if she does not want to go!

First, I'm not crazy about defending this action, which does not correspond to Liz's character. It upsets me when the writers use a ploy to give themselves an excuse to keep the main characters separated. However, because this is Max and Liz, I'll swallow the couple of words I have stored for the writers in case I ever see them and try to explain her behavior: Liz says I don't want you with her lips, but everything else about her says that she loves Max. He must sense this because, otherwise, he wouldn't have been so relentless in his persuit. He knew of the flashes, her look of love when he was hurt, her unconditional help. And, as Liz said last year: his eyes saw it but his heart is telling him it cannot be true! After TEOTW, notice he doesn't ask her again. He realized she didn't want him. You are right. However...

You said: "Furthermore, he'd be foolish to. Would you embrace someone you couldn't trust? I wouldn't! How can Max trust someone who is obviously deceiving him? She does not trust him with the truth, she manipulates him (and Tess), she stabs him in the back (with Kyle), and yet says she wants to be friends?"

You are right... in part. Max is not trusting her, is not embracing her, he knows she is deceiving him. But he also knows there is something else there.

You: "we know; but Max doesn't. Until Liz said she loved him in front of Isabel and Michael, she had not let on that she still felt for him. Until she actually saved his life (MitC), Max has been pointedly abandoned by the one he loved. It's only after Liz has let it be known that she feels some affection for Max, that he responds at all. Liz is the key."

Yes. You are right. The sad part here is that, sometimes, despite how much we love a person, if that person hurts us continuously, we start loving less and less, a bit each day, until we don't love any longer. I hope this gets solved quickly because I fear for that boy's heart... and hers!

You: "Really, that's my point.... Roswell starts, with a reading from Liz's diary. It's "The Liz Show", how Liz deals with the people (humans and aliens) who are her friends and enemies. It's also about her growing in ability, wisdom, and maturity. We change, as we grow; Liz has done both, and will continue to do so. This is her Destiny."

Yes. Following her destiny is wonderful. Frankly, inasmuch as their quest for the truth is wonderful, I mostly want to know when they will get back together. After six and a half months, those writers owe me a big one, a very big one.

I am also wondering if the book would have changed since FM's visit: kind of like the newspaper in that show with the cat.

To whomever asked: Twilo is the imaginary planet from the Dick Van Dyke show. I don't remember the planet, just my school-girl crush on DVD.

P.S.: avaSpeaks & 1wld4L/M,
FM & FL didn't necessarily know that Liz had powers, did they? So they might have just assumed that they needed Tess's powers (instead of Liz's). But it would be even better to have Tess & Kyle (and whatever powers he has) to help out.

Excuse me? Max married Tess! We have three seperate sources for this! Whether they took vows to be faithful "till death do us part" or "forever", she does have a prior claim on him. And is there nothing romantic about loving the same person, even beyond death?

********************************************

Reggie -

First - we have only suspicious sources claiming that Max married Tess (Tess herself, the skins, Harding). The mom-o-gram and Larek NEVER say WHO the bride is.
Our Max - who has his INTUITION and is told again and again by trustworthy sources that the key is to FOLLOW HIS HEART has absolutely NO feelings for Tess. Even after KISSING her - he only feels deeply disturbed and even frightened. Even after Liz tells him she is backing out of his life, even after she seemingly betrays him with Kyle - he still does not have the desire to act on a relationship with Tess. Now whatever Tess may be or may not be - she does have certian feminine "assets" that she prominently displays that should be enough to tempt any teenage male to do a little "lamp trimming" - especially if he has ANY repressed/hidden/past life SHADOWS of memories of actually loving (or at least "cementing") with her. Why on earth wouldnt Max be acting on his "instinct" if she truly was or ever had been his mate????

Also - I serously doubt that Twilo wedding vows mirror our American version :-) - and even so - I find the notion that any person has any "CLAIM" on another person to be extremely distasteful and downright frightening. People are not property to be owned, marked or claimed.
Relationships should be based on mutual feelings/respect/love/sacrifice. In fact - true love is exemplified in sacrifce - not in "LAYING CLAIM". Think of the wisdom of Solomon who was able to deduce the baby's true mother by the women who was willing to give up the child out of love - not the woman who was demanding that she had a RIGHT to the child. If you were to tell Max that Tess had some sort of "CLAIM" on him based on something that may or may not have happened to one half of his current "essence" in a past life - I think he would find that notion immensely distateful.

Loving someone through lifetimes is romantic - trying to manipulate and OWN them is not. Saying "to HELL with him if I cant have it MY way" is not romantic. Planting fake images in someones mind to try to make them desire you is not romantic.

Romantic is being willing to give up everything for another person, it is being willing to sacrifice evrything, being willing to make yourself vunerable, it is mutual attraction that is based on a deep soul connection - not just a physical connection, it is friendship that blossoms into love.

Everything that Liz did TO current Max - she did FOR Max. As she was in the bed with Kyle - Max was only a whisper away. Her act of betrayal was, in fact, the ultimate act of fidelity.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

BTW - What happened to Max and Isabel's father?

And StarBox, great argument, I can't wait to hear Reggie's comeback. But your argument goes along with my life story of being incurably romantic and being physically alone (total sacrifice of "territory"), so I can really see it--but few do. Another reason why I'm on Liz's team.

Nana J.

I wish that the writers would give us more answers instead of more questions. Like I thought for sure that Summer of 47 would give some answer, but no such luck.

Coming out of lurkdome to ask GraceKel for help with the "clicking". I watched MITC over and over last night trying to hear it. You are saying that it is when he finds Tess after Liz saves him right? All I could hear was his feet hitting the ground. Can you tell me exactly when to start listening?

Also-remember the two glowing aliens at the end of Sof47? I can't remember your guy's thoughts on who these were - please remind me. I thought that it was TicTac and Nasedo. If so they would have never lost thought process from one planet to the next like our podsters - so wouldn't Nasedo have alot more information to give Tess than she has let on?? I just always get the feeling that she knows more than she lets on...

Shapeshifter - thanks for the comment :-)
It is so true that the only "claim" we have over another is in the claim that they GIVE us freely. Ah, love. :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Re: the podsters' lack of memory.
I’ve always thought that their lack of memories was done on purpose (especially after seening the dupes). Suppose the Roswell gang's having their Twilo memories, would prevent them from truly gaining the knowledge/experience they needed to learn on Earth. Or even if you don’t subscribe to this theory, maybe that their simply having all their previous knowledge would increase their chances/result in them making the same mistakes in their past lives again.

This way with no previous memories, the Podsters' '2nd chance' decisions will be unbiased (maybe some of what their past selves 'thought' they knew were actually lies, betrayals, tactics planted by their enemies, etc). In the Wheel of Time series there's a phrase along the lines of "...you only know half of what you think you know..." (this is only part of it, sorry I can't remember the rest).

Basically what I'm saying is that No memories = clean slate/fresh start... possibly tying into this is a potential reason why the Dupes are not the true Royal 4, they remember...

Re: speculations surronding the "destiny" book...
It's truly frustrating that we don't know what it actually says/means as well as zero explanations as to what brought down the Royal 4 (the Vilandra story, may have played a role, but it seems unlikely that 1 person could've brought down the entire planet-- especially since she wasn't even the 1st or 2nd in command). Anyway my theory on the book is that what if it's there to help explain one of the things responsible for their planet's demise, which on Earth has the potential of occurring again-- something that shouldn't be repeated.

Even w/no memories there would still be a conceiveable chance of the Podsters pairing up again. (this pairing up could be related to the theory that when a species is introduced into a closed ecological system, the species' natural instinct is to increase their numbers &/or stay with their own kind = promoting their survival, etc). So the book could actually be explaining that, while the Podsters' pairing once was, it isn’t meant to be... that (whether their marriages were arranged or not) the podsters' ‘coupling’ played some role in Twilo’s demise-- example: Vilandra was betrothed to Rath, but she "betrayed" everyone for her great love, Khivar, etc.

Re: Liz saying she’s scared in MITC...
Perhaps this is related to her comment during Season I of feeling she’s changing inside/chemically and now her being scared in MITC is Liz's instinctively knowing that once she took that ‘step’ to contact Max in NY, there would be no turning back. Her beginning to use her 'powers/gifts' would be the irreversible catalyst of setting events in motion to the realization of who she really is and the actualization of who she really is. This could also be supported by FMax’s comment to Liz, in EOTW, of "you’re not letting yourself change".

Ps. Love the steps symbolism!!! What struck me as really odd in MITC was at the end when Max used Liz's window/balcony to leave. I thought "for goodness sake, why can't he just use the normal entrance/exit for once?!?" The reason I found it particularly strange is that it was broad daylight out! Usually he's used her ladder when it was night (thus we can logically assume it had to do with her parents'not knowing there was a boy visiting their daughter in her room during the wee hours of the morning/night issue). But because this time it was daylight/most likely afternoon, when you tie in the steps/ladder symbolism it makes sense .

Tasyfa, yes I too noticed the expectant pause directed towards Max from the others during the summit in MITC. I also noticed Rath & Lonnie's expectant gazes too (+ Rath's unimpressed look at Max's lack of response ).

I did notice this - when they were talking about who was attacking whom - and do think it is significant - but not sure how or why.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I also agree with StarBox that the name of Max's "bride" was never mentioned in any episode. In fact it was obviously avoided...maybe a clue. If Tess was truly Max's bride, why would everyone in New York- the dupes, Nicholas, etc. not atleast treat her with the respect a queen deserves. They were really mean to her.

I am still convinced that smile meant, 'I know you're still lying to me, but I'll let it go for now until you're ready to tell me the truth'.

here's hoping! and believing!

Zero
I Shall Believe

Also-remember the two glowing aliens at the end of Sof47? I can't remember your guy's thoughts on who these were - please remind me. I thought that it was TicTac and Nasedo. If so they would have never lost thought process from one planet to the next like our podsters - so wouldn't Nasedo have alot more information to give Tess than she has let on?? I just always get the feeling that she knows more than she lets on...

I always refer to the two glowing aliens as the "Mother Bears." Though the assumption is that they are Harding and Tic Tac (we don't know who Nasedo truly was), we don't know that for sure. We don't know who was on the ship with the pods - the shapeshifters could have come to Earth at a later or earlier time. We also don't know if the glowing aliens that Hal Carver ran into on the rode were the same that showed up in the lab. There could have been many glowing aliens running around the desert in 1947???

Zero
I Shall Believe!

This got me thinking. On the outside, Roswell is a show about 4 alien teens and their battles and occasional loves. But when you really analyze it, there is so much more to it. And it really does become the Liz show, in a way. It still is about 4 aliens, but then you also have to factor in the one inevitable person who causes things to happen, to change, to stop, etc. And Liz is this person. Even from the beginning. Think for a minute: If she hadn't gotten shot, Max wouldn't have saved her and no one would be suspicious of him. Liz wouldn't have found out that Max loved her, she wouldn't have found out he was an alien, etc, etc, etc. Brings me back to the whole debate TEOTW started: Can one small action change the course of history indefinitely? My answer would be yes. Thoughts?

Anne

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bluecornmoon:

Reggie: You said: "Excuse me? Max married Tess! We have three seperate sources for this! Whether they took vows to be faithful "till death do us part" or "forever", she does have a prior claim on him. And is there nothing romantic about loving the same person, even beyond death?"

Yes, however... I don't think there was love in that marriage. Otherwise, Max wouldn't have imprinted himself on a 6 year old in Kindergarden and Tess would not be so willing to "trim the lamp" with somebody else. I think she is more in love with the idea of being Queen, of having power than anything else!

Amen Bluecornmoon! Tess should be focused on getting stronger so that they can be ready for war: not worried about bedding Max. She doesn't have to have an intimate relationship with Max to fulfill her part in the Royal 4. It's definitely about power.

And like someone said earlier we don't know what marriage meant on Twilo. Tess is assuming it meant the same thing it does on Earth. Maybe it isn't the same, and then again maybe it is, meaning that most Royal Marriages here on Earth are hardly for love and happiness. It's for the country and to produce an heir. Could this have been the case on Twilo? It's very possible. That would most certainly explain why almost everyone Max has come in contact with from his past have pretty much ignored Tess.

And like someone said earlier we don't know what marriage meant on Twilo. Tess is assuming it meant the same thing it does on Earth. Maybe it isn't the same, and then again maybe it is, meaning that most Royal Marriages here on Earth are hardly for love and happiness. It's for the country and to produce an heir. Could this have been the case on Twilo? It's very possible. That would most certainly explain why almost everyone Max has come in contact with from his past have pretty much ignored Tess.

Good leaders follow their hearts. That is what both Liz and Max do. In S&B, it is Liz saying "Killing someone got you in this mess in the first place." Max agreed with her and used his brain to find another solution. Max consistently follows his heart (he does so in Ask Not towards the end, it works out for the best; he doesn't believe Liz and he is right).

Tess and Max don't have to be together for things to work out fine.

In terms of what Reggie said about Max marrying Tess before: I would like to see Max try those memory retrieval techniques and see Liz's soul (another alien character played by Liz in his memory retrieval dreams) in his past life so we can see that she has ALWAYS been connected to Max and he with Liz.

How would he know about her powers if they had never been tapped? Remember, FMax isn't God, just someone with a knowledge of one possible future.

I'm becoming convinced that a Liz/Max pairing is what the symbol with the hands and triangle is, because of the pictures we've seen. What I'm trying to figure out is, what is the triangle? Is there anyone who knows the symbolism for a triangle? I've been toying with the idea that it's a key that Liz holds inside her body, or perhaps psyche. Or perhaps it's a (totally weird, I know) child, who will be the key to the granolith. And I'm intrigued by the Virgin Mary references. Maybe an imaxulate conception would be too x-files. I know I don't have much to back this up, but I'd love to get feedback and see what everyone thinks.

I'm becoming convinced that a Liz/Max pairing is what the symbol with the hands and triangle is, because of the pictures we've seen. What I'm trying to figure out is, what is the triangle? Is there anyone who knows the symbolism for a triangle? I've been toying with the idea that it's a key that Liz holds inside her body, or perhaps psyche. Or perhaps it's a (totally weird, I know) child, who will be the key to the granolith. And I'm intrigued by the Virgin Mary references. Maybe an imaxulate conception would be too x-files. I know I don't have much to back this up, but I'd love to get feedback and see what everyone thinks.

I think the triangle is the granolith and that when Max and Liz work together it is protected (Just like in MITC, Max believed what Liz said and therefore didn't give the granolith up).

I really like this idea - that it is the granolith. The triangle is also the symbol of the HEART - of marriage and harmony :-). Also - triangles are symbols of religious triads (trinities if you will) -
some examples are right thinking, right speaking and right doing; wisdom, strength and beauty; faith, hope and love; also - past, present, future, and the list goes on and on.
In whatever forn it takes - I believe the triange represents the BALANCE that is created by Liz and Max "completing each other". Whether that is a literal balance (i.e the granolith working to bring physical "balance") or a symbolic "balance" ; or - most likely - both a physical and spiritual balance.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Zero
I Shall Believe!

AND (going back to that annoying inconsistency), if Tic-Tac and Harding/Nasedo are the same "guys", then who's the other glowey alien!? All this questions and we don't get ANY answers at least until the 18th - ugh!!!

Maybe that's why I'm singel!?

Zero
I Shall Believe!

YES! It works - THANK YOU!!! Shapeshifter :D

Zero
I Shall Believe!

YES! It works - THANK YOU!!! Shapeshifter :D

Zero - pretty DANG cool!!!!!!!

**StarBox**

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Looks great! Good job Shapeshifter!
YES! It works - THANK YOU!!! Shapeshifter :D

Looks great Zero! Kudos to shapeshifter! If I ever get to 500 can you make me one?

Nasedo did say in WR that they had just barely tapped into there powers.
So obviously they are capable of SO much more. What if in MitC Tess has unknowingly tapped into the ability to transport herself (and others?) short distances away?

What if as Tess was watching what Lonnie was up to all she was thinking was "I have to get us out of here, I have to get us away from these 2."
But because Max took those steps forward, he was somehow left behind. And because she was so new to this ability, and didn't even know how or what she was doing, she transported herself back to where the summit meeting was held (or was that just a recycling of sets at the studio?) And who knows where she sent Lonnie and Rath to?!!! But this would give the writers an out to bring them back later if they wanted. And also explain to me why they disapeared all of a suddin.

CRAZY huh!!?!!

any comments from the peanut gallery?

We do learn that the Pod Squad are, in a manner, actually simply evolved humans themselves. Nasedo's comment to Michael in WR - something to the effect of "All your abilities are human, just a couple thousand years in advance", as well as the fact that they all have human infrastructures, human skeletons, etc., show that, in many ways, the Pod Squad is more human than alien.
The alien DNA used in creating the Pod Squad most likely simply accelerated the evolutionary process of their human bodies.

As for humans being a branch of the Pod Squad's alien race, I don't know. The theory has the possibility of being quite sound, your query as to why else the Pod Squad's race would send them specifically to Earth as opposed to another planet supports this. But the writers seem to be attempting to distance the Pod Squad from their human roots this season, which is why I doubt a storyline focusing on the similarities between the alien four and the human race will be brought to fruition; yet. Then again - there was a comment by an FF poster that at last year's Crashdown party, someone asked a Roswell producer if there was any possibility of an 'altered Liz' plotline being pursued, and he dismissed the idea, saying it wasn't plausible because if they did go that route, they'd have to develop a 'changed Kyle' theme to accompany it. See what a difference a few months make.

I do agree that Ava's comment to Liz - about Zan never returning her feelings for him, the way in which he seemed to always be 'waiting for someone', will become highly significant later. Max never got the chance to establish a deep emotional connection with Tess because he was already in love with Liz when she arrived. There were no such circumstances in the case of Ava/Zan; we're given the impression that the Dupes have never been separated. Then why the inability to connect? The implication was done deliberately by Moore; there are unknown circumstances involved in the past-life marriage of Tess and Max on Twilo.

azcat - Despite FM traveling from the future, I agree that this is no guarantee that he'll possess all knowledge relevant to the Pod Squad. But if Liz's change has endowed her with special abilities, factoring in that there's an interplanetary war occurring some 14 years hence, shouldn't there have been plenty of opportunities for her to 'tap' into her powers? And what of the Dupes? With the war, wouldn't the Pod Squad have exchanged information with their duplicates at least once, thus learning of the effects they could have on humans? The reason I disagree with the theory that FM's purpose in trying to break up Max and Liz's relationship was so that Liz could discover her powers, not so Tess would remain in Roswell, is that regardless of his interference, Liz probably would have been involved in many situations which would have resulted in the discovery of her abilities.

I'm becoming convinced that a Liz/Max pairing is what the symbol with the hands and triangle is, because of the pictures we've seen. What I'm trying to figure out is, what is the triangle? Is there anyone who knows the symbolism for a triangle? I've been toying with the idea that it's a key that Liz holds inside her body, or perhaps psyche. Or perhaps it's a (totally weird, I know) child, who will be the key to the granolith. And I'm intrigued by the Virgin Mary references. Maybe an imaxulate conception would be too x-files. I know I don't have much to back this up, but I'd love to get feedback and see what everyone thinks.

Actually, the downwards-pointing triangle is often a symbol of woman--it's supposed to represent the female genitals--so that's not such a far-fetched idea Circles also are representative of woman, but they tend to be associated with fertility--enlarged breasts and pregnant stomach. The idea of the triangle representing Liz's body is a good one. I'm not sure whether it would enforce the Virgin Queen theory, or if it would, in fact, mean that once activated, Liz's powers would be immeasurably strengthened through sex (as a dreamer, you can guess which theory I'd prefer to be true ).

I have some other ideas, but I'll get back to you later; I'm at work and my boss is due back from lucnh very soon!

The Skins see the granilith as a restorative/healing device and Rath mentioned it as a religious/holy grail type object. My guess is that the other aliens have no idea how to manipulate the granilith's power for time travel.

Liz's own power comes from being healed by Max, the rightful owner of the granilith. I wonder if any of Max's ability to heal comes from the granilith and if now Liz would have a connection to the granilith because of the healing. Liz could then be the key to using the granilith. (Well, Liz and a crystal, but you never know. She could be connected to that, too. )

From Ava's reaction to Liz's healing, I wonder, too, if there are any prophecies that would relate to this that she forgot to mention. (I've read The Wheel of Time, too. Always a sucker for a good epic.)

And as for the granilith as a religious object... Max & co. better be careful what they do with the granilith. Roswell could very well become Mecca for aliens. As if it isn't already.

Maybe that is how it is for M & L? As Max said "I belong with Liz." That is probably why he recognized her right away!

What do you all think?

She says "Our enemies have come to the Earth. You will know them only by the evil within. Learn enough to use your skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy so that you can come back and free us. And that I may once again hold you both in my arms."

To me this sounds like their enemies (ie: Kavar &/or other rulers not just "soldiers") are already here on Earth. I mean how would they be able to free their people if Kavar was still there, wouldn't they have to combat more enemies back on their planet?

This isn't making sense is it! But neither does the Mom-0-gram!!

When was the M-O-G recorded?
Was this message set to go off when the communicators/Orb's where brought together, as a reaction, not as the orbs' primary function?
When was it brought to Earth? Or was it brought with them in the crash of '47?
If so then who are the enemies that she speaks of that have already come to Earth?
More skins? Or another alien race?
Or was it brought here after the skins arrived in '50?
Is this when the granolith was brought here? Is that why Nasedo didn't know it was here? (assuming he was in the '47 crash, and that he REALLY DIDN'T know about it. He did seem to know that using the communicators would allow their enemies to locate them, besides the FBI had one of the Orbs, so Nasedo may have been uninformed on any new developments in the Royal 4 Mission)
Who brought it then?
And where is he/she now?

And like others have mentioned, it is frustrating that no one is telling the Royal 4 about their history. But I agree with those of you who've suggested that they made mistakes in their past lives, and are here to do things differantly. Like the M-O-G says "Learn enough to use..." They are here to learn to use their abilities. Max can't be told what to do to be a good leader, (like he probably was on Twilo) he has to learn through trial and error. Telling them too much about their past is just going to lock them into repeating it.

I don't think that the dupes "remember" their past (or Tess for that matter), I am starting to think that those of you that guessed that Niko is their "protector" were right. Maybe they were the decoys that Niko found far too easily, and after he realized it, just kept them around as anoying "pets" telling them all about their failures and betrails just to amuse himself, or to ensure that they would indead repeat the same mistakes again, guarenteeing their defeat. And of course realizing that they could become usefull in the future decided not to kill them.

Of course there is one more possibility that I can think of...(but this one I hate!)

The M-O-G was a real time message being sent from Twilo accross the universe to Earth within a matter of seconds.
This one bothers me because, if all the aliens on Earth now know their location, why the heck don't they use those DA#N communicators everyday? What does it matter now if little beepers start going off all over the world?
They shouldn't be alloud to ask questions about their past, but why not things like:
How many allies do we have here?
How many kinds of enemies?
Srengths & Weakness's?
Are you OK?
What do you know about that darn Super Nova?!

I'm sorry for rambling!!

I think I'm going crazy!

What do you all think?

I think some of us are getting on Liz too hard because for one, she is only human and she did what she thought was right, because FM told her that something needed to be done, she didn't know and she didn't have any special powers, that SHE KNEW ABOUT AT THAT TIME to let her be able to see if FM was legit.

As far as goes, I think he does know that Liz did not sleep with Kyle, but he just doesn't know why she is lying or what she is covering up and as I recall, MAX was the first to break up with LIZ in Balance because she was scared.....

I think that's the beauty of it all, fot them to work towqrd their fears and emotions, to stand by each other when the times are the weakest....

And Tess, yes, Tess is a valuable part of the group, but I think she is lonely and miss having a normal teenagehood, maybe she needs some real friends and dates like Isabel that's different from the "Pod Squad" and the "Helpmates"

[/B]

Thanks for that explanation Wishful Thinking I thought that too after I posted about that. Yeah I would be scared of "change". If I knew I was "changing"
I wouldn't want to take any "steps" to futher accelerate that "change."

But as I said before, if I knew that I could help save the life of the man I loved I would do anything within my "power" to help.

Maybe that is how it is for M & L? As Max said "I belong with Liz." That is probably why he recognized her right away!

What do you all think?

YES YES YES! I LOVE Lois and Clark and if I got cable I'd still watch it religiously LOL! I think it is the same that Max and Liz are soulmates. I posted this theory awhile back on an easrlier version of this thread but no one responded!! Thank you for bringing that up again!!

by bluecornmoon
_____________________________________________

I totally agree with you. I don't think Zan is dead. I would love to see an episode unfold where there is a Zan vs. Max for our Lady Liz.

Anyway I had another idea involving the granilith. Has anyone commented on the question as to how it got behind the pod chamber? That seems like a pretty big stone to me, how and when did the guardians have a chance to hide it while they were so preoccupied with keeping the pods safe in Summer of '47?

I propose that the granilith was in a different ship with different guardians (some relation to Liz perhaps?). The outside of the pod chamber looks as if it is the side of a ship that crashed into a mountain. This might be the reason that none of the podsters (even Tess) knew of its existance and maybe why Nacedo never mentioned it to Tess - he himself didn't know where it landed! Also, would the leaders on the home planet have put all of their eggs in one basket? It makes sense that they would have sent the granilith and the podsters separately with the granilith having its own guardians until the podsters matured enough to take control of it.

Any comments?

I propose that the granilith was in a different ship with different guardians (some relation to Liz perhaps?). The outside of the pod chamber looks as if it is the side of a ship that crashed into a mountain. This might be the reason that none of the podsters (even Tess) knew of its existance and maybe why Nacedo never mentioned it to Tess - he himself didn't know where it landed! Also, would the leaders on the home planet have put all of their eggs in one basket? It makes sense that they would have sent the granilith and the podsters separately with the granilith having its own guardians until the podsters matured enough to take control of it.

Any comments?

Good point. Do you suppose the Podsters were moved to the Granolith/cave chamber sometime near their 'births'? ...convienantly putting the Royal 4 & granolith together when it wasn't possible for the guardians to 'keep their eggs in separate baskets' anymore. Maybe another reason for the initial granolith/Royal 4 separation, aside from tactical advantage, the guardians needed to find out which pod group were the dupes & which were really the royal 4. Don't ask me how they find out if this theory is correct, , my head is starting to spin.

AMEN, Rockgoddess!

NikL: yes yes yes! I've wondering why Tess and Ava have different names myself. The best theory I have is that since Lonnie is short for Villandra, maybe Tess and Ava are different nicknames for some other name.

EC2k

This being Roswell NM, why hasn't anyone mentioned Area 51? Granted that that may be of no use at all w/ all the info they've gotten, but do you suppose that something important, even vital, might be stored there? I don't really know where I'm going with this, just thought I'd throw it out there it just came to me while remembering "Independence Day". I know there's no relevance, but does anyone have any ideas?

Can't you picture the scooby gang breaking in for some reason like they did Univ. of NM, Whitaker's office, etc.

I dunno, sorry for the ramble.

It's about the tatoo on the back of Lonnie's neck. When we first saw it in MTD, I paused/GraceKelled my tape to the nth degree to try and figure out what it was. I think it's a horse! Which of course sort of threw me, because you wouldn't think that it goes with the whole punk image.

But I've been musing it over and it makes more and more sense-- especially in my mind when I automatically thought of the tatoo as a rather blatant label for the "Trojan horse" of the group. Consider the Vilandra story, an insider's betrayal back on Twilo, now the ambiguous ending of MITC, is Tess really Tess or Lonnie in disguise? If it is Lonnie, then Max is bringing home the wrong hybrid & thus the granolith isn't safe... plus there's Lonnie's comment of "I've got cards, I just haven't shown them to you yet" to Nicholas in MITC.

For those who are unfamiliar with the Trojan horse story:
During the battle of Troy, the Greeks were losing to the Trojans and the Greeks saw that unless they were able to get their army secretly inside the city of Troy and take the Trojans by surprise, they would never conquer and would have to accept defeat. So the Greeks built a massive hollow wooden horse so the army could hide in-- their camp was made to look like they had sailed back to Greece & the horse left outside the gates of the city. The next day the horse was discovered by the Trojans & the Greeks' "abandonned" camp... they brought the horse inside the city gates and later that night the Greek army emerged to slaughter the Trojans. (also hence the expression "I fear the Greeks even when they bear gifts").

All of this bringing me back (at some point ) to the rather literal labelling of Lonnie as the Trojan horse.

I know, I know, this is getting long , any comments?

Zero
I Shall Believe!

YES! It works - THANK YOU!!! Shapeshifter :D

Anyway, while in the dentist's chair after work, I got a totally new FLASH on a NEW THEORY:
NOW THAT WE KNOW BEING "BROUGHT BACK" CHANGES SOMEONE, WE HAVE A NEW MOTIVE FOR THE SHOOTERS!!!! I don't have all the kinks worked out, you guys can do that. But if Maria noticed Max was "staring" at Liz "again," then alien watchers would have picked up on it too (if they didn't just already know she was "the one"). They might have purposely shot her when Max was there, knowing he would save/change her, and thus have a helpmate (sorry if that term sounds chauvinistic, but you get my drift). It could even have been skins who wanted to break up the foursome. Or it could be shapeshifters--maybe the book and Mommogram are just a cover to protect the real queen (Liz). Like someone else mentioned, Mommo didn't mention the granolith--probably keeping it secret? Maybe the whole mommogram was a sham to throw off Nicko and the Evils.

Bluecornmoon, I don't think the writers were planning on having Zan come into the crashdown and sweep Liz off her feet thus causing Max to recognize that she still is "the One," but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't adopt your storyline--I love it!

The discussion about Max/Tess, Twilo marriage, "the bride," the book, etc. have my head spinning. I'm going to see if I can put into words what's bothering me. Please tell me if I'm correct on these; it's been a little while since I've viewed the first season tapes.

Okay, we have a general reference to the bride from the Mommogram and the skins, some comments from Harding and Tess which specifically relate "the bride" to Tess, and no reference at all to "the bride" by the dupes and the summit ambassadors (other than Larek's comment about Zan's marriage).

I think it could be assumed that Tess is the bride if we look at ties to the book*. In the book, we've got graphic representations of the four podsters both as children and adults. To me, this would indicate the four humans who resemble those pictures are the four podsters sent from Twilo. (Assuming, Iz and not Tess is the sister and vice versa.)

The question that's bugging me is: it appears (I think) that the skins did not automatically recognize the Royal Four by their human appearance and the summit ambassadors definitely did not. So, who is it that knew what the R4 would look like? I think we can assume Mom and her closest advisors knew and the scientists responsible for the cloning also were aware of what they would look like. (Is that scientifically, possible? But, I digress...) And evidently, hurrumph, TicTac Nacedo also knew exactly who they were since he was appearing in their lives early in the first shows. (Please, please, WB - bring him back!) However, did Harding/Tess actually KNOW at first that Max/Iz/Mich were the three or did they assume they were based on factual evidence gathered in Roswell (let's say, after possibly selecting the Roswell location based on the burst of energy Max/Liz released by discovering the orb in SH) and THEN verified the three others when Tess retrieved the book from the library?

Does this make any sense at all?

Ree99

*Even though I've never really liked the book, I'm assuming it is a legitimate Twilonian artifact for two reasons: 1) it contains the same symbols as those in the cave drawings that (I think) Riverdog attributes to Nacedo, and 2) Michael maps the star chart and ends up with the location of the library where it is stored.

Rooney
(with a new Brody do - from a permanent gone bad!)

Pam, love your "lunch" posts!" lol (I could almost hearing you panting as you frantically keyed in your posts!)

Ree99

I propose that the granilith was in a different ship with different guardians (some relation to Liz perhaps?). The outside of the pod chamber looks as if it is the side of a ship that crashed into a mountain. This might be the reason that none of the podsters (even Tess) knew of its existance and maybe why Nacedo never mentioned it to Tess - he himself didn't know where it landed! Also, would the leaders on the home planet have put all of their eggs in one basket? It makes sense that they would have sent the granilith and the podsters separately with the granilith having its own guardians until the podsters matured enough to take control of it.

Any comments?[/B]

Actually - yes I do ;-)

Take a look at this:
The Granolith chamber:

Now - look at the picture behind Liz. Why - looks like she has a picture of THE GRANOLITH CHAMBER in the Crashdown -and could that be the Parker families UFO hovering above it???????????
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

It is kind of neat to read - the writers actually did a better job in the full script of setting up the fact that Tess was on the verge of leaving Roswell.

Here is the link : http://www.lan2wan.com/~ginger/roswell/EOTW.html

Enjoy :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox, I've tweaked your images for further examination:

So, it was "Grapes of Wrath" !!! Story of the Dustbowl Refugees who were treated like Alien invaders by the California land owners!

I think that her "memories" might not really be her own. Perhaps growing up with Nasedo, she was brain fed the memories that he wanted her to have.

Of course if she was the enemy, she could tell the skins where the granolith was now. Regardless, I do think there is too much symbolism in the storyline with Tess being a little evil.

I really like where this granolith thing is going. I believe Liz is the protector of the granolith and I think it ties back to Grandma Claudia and Betty- the nurse, I think (Summer of 47). I think they are one and the same and someone when she disappeared, she was really helping the alien cause.

This is a shot in the dark, but remember how scared she was. Maybe she took something of value to ensure that no harm would come to her and that something ended up being the granolith.

Also, FM mentions that we must play all the cards we have. I don't really know where the card symbolism is going, but I think it's something big.

MichWorl

Really like the Granolith discussion!

Looks like it will be time for a new thread tomorrow morning! WOW!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I thought about the same thing. WHO out of all these different "races" has this power of "mind raping"? Is it a Skin thing? Is it a SS thing? Is it simply an "alien" thing and some of them just don't know it yet?

I have a distinct feeling that the T that came back with Max in MITC is NOT the T that left Roswell with her. I'm thinking more and more about the fact that it's probably Lonnie. I think we'll be able to tell a lot when we see the interaction between this T and Max/Liz/Iz! I just keep going back to Lonnie's comment to Nick about, "having a few cards up her sleeve". This has GOT to one of them!!

We know the Orb used Liz as the conduit to be discovered! It was buried less than one mile away from the Granolith! Is it safe then to assume it was/is like a Granolith remote control, an extension, if you will, of the big G? Probably. We must, then, assume the Granolith knows and is very aware of Liz. It is, in fact, waiting for her. I am hoping, when she finally visits, that it welcomes her in the proper manner its handler should be welcomed!

Azcat: Further to Tasyfa's comments on the symbolism for the triangle, here is a description of what they mean:
TRIANGLE: One of the most powerful and versatile geometric symnbols. This equilateral triangle sitting on its base is a male and solar sign representing divinity, fire, life, the heart, the mountain and ascent, prosperity, harmony and royalty. The reversed triangle - possibly a more ancient sign - is female and lunar, representing the great mother, water, fecundity, rain, heavenly grace. The symbolism of the female pubic triangle and vulva is sometimes made more specific by the addition of a short interior line drawn from the bottom point. In China, the triangle appears to be always female. Male and female triangles meeting at their points signify sexual union. Interpenetrating to form a hexagram, they symbolize syntheses, the union of opposites. Horizontally, with bases meeting, two triangles represented the waxing and waning moon. As the simplest plane figure, based on the sacred number three, the triangle was the Pythagorean sign for wisdom, linked with Athene.

In both Judaism and Christianity, the triangle was the sign for God. The God of the Christian Trinity is sometimes represented by an eye within a triangle or by a venerable figure with a triangular halo. Alchemy used upward - and downward - pointing triangles as the signs for fire and water. More generally, linear triangles or triangular - shaped compositions can refer to triands of gods or other threefold concepts. It is often used as a sign for God or for harmony.

In antiquity, it was sometimes regarded as a symbol of light. For many people, it is a symbol of God's strength, beauty and wisdom, of the balance between heaven and earth, of the perfect harmony between beings.

Will return later.....

BTW, considering this is the thread dedicated to studying the importance of Liz in the Alien Mythology, and Shiri Appleby plays her so well, and today is December 7th, her 22nd. Birthday, I just wanted to say that I'm sure all the wonderful people populating this thread would want to join me in wishing her the most wonderful and happy of all her birthdays so far, and may she have and enjoy many more to come!

Chica

Good question!

I was waiting for the thread to finish so it would be in the beginning of the new one I hope I remember by the time the new thread goes up. I'm really upset now I'm gonna torture myself till I remember.

I thought Shiri was turning 23 either way Happy Birthday!

Chica: My thoughts exactly!

Sunrise: Area 51 is an actual facility that belongs to the Government (or so they deny!). If they have anything, it would probably be lost to the podsters, so why bother? I think that's the reason why nobody has mentioned it!

Shapeshifter: Skins shooting Liz because Max was interested in her, thus severing the connection among the Royal 4?: Why? If the Skins shot her, we must assume they came from the future. If they traveled to the past, they have access to the Granolith, thus the war is lost - no need to shoot her. If Skins from the Present shot her for a "just in case", they are putting themselves in peril for something that's just a throw in the dark. A "maybe", an "I hope", a "who knows?". I don't think they would put themselves in jeopardy like that. Besides, present day skins didn't know back in September '99 that the podsters were in Roswell.

I think that we must rethink our versions of the shooters with the information we acquired from MITC: there is only one Granolith. Only one access to the past, and that is through the people who control it. Even in the "doomed" version of the future, Max and Liz still had control over it. We now know there's only one Granolith. So.. no Skins, present or future. No shapeshifters, unless Present SS decided to push Max into action. Future SS have no access to the "G". Still only possibility: Future Max (latest version, hopefully) and Future Michael, shapeshifting (or emisaries of both, although I don't think they would send anybody else to do a job of such delicate nature to anybody else!), in order to push Max to acknowledge Liz, thus bringing the future into being!

Ree99: If you have knowledge of which gene (or combination of T, C, A, G), in a DNA strand generates what feature, ability, behavior, etc., then yes, you would be able to tell exactly what a person is going to look like in the future. We already have a rudimentary knowledge and capability of doing this so, so... a civilization with technology capable of star travel, would most definitely know what a podster would look like when grown! It's just a matter of choosing the right combinations (now, if only they would give JNB's to the people who cloned Dolly, and they manufacture him by the hundreds!, we would all be set for life!!).

Azcat: I'll tell you the truth: Everytime anybody makes any reference to the Virgin Mary, I shudder at the thought and skip towards the next post! Pleeaasseee!! I want them to cement, cement as in pavement, mixture of granite, sand and water: hard cement! No inmaculate conception here, no, no, no! If you discuss her as the Woman who brought forth the Savior (and please, if anybody is offended because I am talking about Christianity, it's not meant to be offensive. Please take this as somebody offering a bit from the knowledge she has of her religion, that's it!), then, yes, that is a possibility. It is only through Liz's help and conduit that Max will realize himself, and, quoting the US Army: make himself "all that he can be".

As for the Granolith... again . I think the mountain where it's lodged is the portal, the gate for a wormhole to the home planet. The Granolith transported itself and there it remains! I don't think it's sentient, but it's the closest thing to one that there is! As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the mountain is the Granolith, only it "manufactured" the rocks on top and around to disguise itself!

As I've said before, I need to get a life....

As I've said before, I need to get a life.... [/B]

Bluecornmoon,
You just keep popping out these great theories!! I think this is true of the Granolith also, with it holding so much power, and being capable of sustaining the skins, time travel, and who knows what else, why would it need a ship to be transported. With all that power if programed properly it could be a ship on it's own.

I think the best direction for that theory to go with if Tess is an imposter or a betrayer, that makes if pausible fo rother options, or if Tess gets in good with the group.

Also, do you think that Max maybe mad if he finds out that Liz lied??? More deception??? I mean I just playing adovacate here, thinking about all of the possible ways that the writers might try to push the whole "Tess thing" with Max, just a thought because it seems like they really want us to swallow this, but then who knows.

Also, I think that Max is attracted to Liz because she is special, maybe he is her true soulmate and she is his, but they couldn't or wasn't allowed to be together in another life? So just maybe, please hit me back with responses, I know I a neewbie but I feel alone here

Thanks bluecornmoon for the kind words :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**

I remember seeing an interview with the makers of Independence Day the movie. They said that they had asked the government to help them out with facts on procedures and such. They gave the script to some officials to critique, and when they were finished reading it they told the makers of I.D. that they needed to remove any mention of Area 51 from the script or else they would not contribute. Obviously they didn't!

So maybe that is why there is no mention of area 51, censorship alive and well in America!

I think that the "base" that the white room was in, was suppose to be Area 51, they just gave it a differant name.

1wld4M/L: If I was the mighty Government of the United States and I had this military base where I stored all my little secrets, would I advertise it? Would I let anybody know about it? (I know, I know... they failed on that one! :lol. So, I don't think they'll be advertising recreational tours to that site anytime soon! However, as everybody says here, if two people think the same thing, etc., it's probably true! Well, too much information on that place has come out through the years to believe that Area 51 is only a figment in fevered minds' imaginations!

This should be Post 250, right? Happy posting on 21!!!

Moderators: You can close this thread, (I saved the last post for you. :lol