The following is a LONG summary (oxymoron?) of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I try to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled; however, not all theories are covered in-depth (remember, I have limited human brain capacity, so can only retain only so many theories). This intro is partially up-dated from the last thread – but I ran out of time. So, hopefully, the next rendition will be a complete up-date. Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance!

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions – or is it time zones? - recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz and felt a special connection to her. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that connection irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t let go of the connection, but after events in NY is willing to give their friendship another try, and that there is MORE to that connection as we have always assumed. Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions re: that connection have been answered in this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz – whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. After MITC, we now KNOW that LIZ HAS CHANGED (or is changing – maybe the change that FM said she had to have occur, and wasn’t letting happen!) as a result of Max “bringing her back,” but Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply that something more is involved, beyond a mere acquisition of a power or two – but more on that later! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squad’s planet? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? But if so, and she is part alien, why did she disappear in Wipeout? She did cause the Skin’s shed skin to disintegrate, but that could have other reasons for occurring.)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” and romanced a predecessor to Liz – but was called back to Twilo, leaving his true love behind.
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz? Could Tess/Ava be a ruse to protect the true queen – Liz - from being discovered before she has time to develop her powers that would protect her and her loved ones?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.)
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies, such as the key to operating the Granolith – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her?
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Twilo? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Granolith and the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story – Ava had heard this story foretold during her previous life on Twilo? ;
· Could it just be Liz's extremely advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the many theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special all his human life – and he never connected with Ava the way one would have expected if she was his mate even though they had (we assume) spent their entire life on Earth together. I guess we will never know unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones (all 5 of them w/ Liz present) – anything is possible? We don’t know what happened to his body.) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?) – Liz looks directly at Max as he gets off the bus, with a sort of recognition. They obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were friends and lab partners more recently. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that we know are all human (according to Harding in WR). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking already – yet dormant – powers existing within her? Ava’s reaction seems to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle? There seems to be more to it than that! Though Kyle may develop his own powers someday??

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins – are her parents her true birth parents or is she adopted like the Evans kids? Does she have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race? Why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble? And does how all this play into the connection with Max and her new found “abilities/powers” (The first known appearing to be astral projection.) Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur? We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the Twilo conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. Rath sarcastically comments about how hard it is to travel through space to Earth – thus the need to possess humans long-distance – but the podsters obviously got here somehow (and fairly quickly if the comments concerning the warring for 50 years is correct - I will explain this if you don’t get what I mean – just ask) – so travel to and from Earth must be possible and not unreasonable. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ people from long ago? And how does the Granolith fit into this? We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Whitaker and Courtney seemed to think it was a means to their salvation – but why? It is obviously of great importance – maybe the Holy Grail of the V constellation? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? If it is only a transport system, I don’t they would have had such a concerned reaction – so their must be more to it than that. Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the prophesized protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time (apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way before their discovery?). (So, many questions – still! … !)

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his original “destiny” on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a human alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction – maybe she had “heard” the prophecy or Zan’s searching was tied to it somehow! Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the podsquad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are “human.” Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters? Though the Dupes do seem to have memories of their past lives – at least Lonnie appears to - we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time!) Are the visions Max’s alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! What else is stored deep within there, and can he prevent having it MRd out of him? There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history destined to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the secrets being kept by the podsters from one-another. We now know that Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself Zan was killed through treachery on Twilo, then Zan-reborn was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no?? Maybe we make our own destiny with a little help from our friends.

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons. Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again. And the promo for ARCC looks like he is still committed to Believing in Liz – thus, following his heart back to her!

The symbolism throughout the both seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often. Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! There is a prominent picture of a Ship between Max and Maria when they are discussing his love for Liz. The old Scandinavian tale of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his score "The Flying Dutchman", symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love. In desperation the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful. Senta, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears that she will be faithful to the Dutchman unto death. However, in doing so, she betrays her finace Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she was trying to save. The Dutchman puts out to sea, but his vessel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned. HOWEVER - the pair are now seen RISING from the now-CALMED waters, TRANSFIGURED and REDEEMED by their SACRIFICE. Salvation is no impossibly idealistic dream, but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth.

Then there is the dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. We are currently in the "year of the dragon." Here are some Dragon “meanings”:
· In the Chinese Horoscope, the Dragon is in the FIFTH ranking order.
· The Dragon's corresponding western sign is ARIES.
· The Dragon’s ruling planet is VENUS.
Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her (unless dragons have been popping up on other characters’ windows?). But since this is the year she discovers that she has “powers,” it is reasonable to think of her as being “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon … as the Dragon. (Thank You Meloudious 1, Starbox and Bluecornmoon for your thoughts on the Dragon!)

There are lots of others! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent and clever for that!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? Could it be Liz? (Though most accept that Tess/Ava were the “bride.”) Why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day.) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. (Zan and Ava didn’t seem to be working at producing off-spring.) Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts – why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection?) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the podsquad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!)

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, and connecting with Max to save his life in NY.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max ‘fall out of love with her’). She could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we found out is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment (who knows who to believe on this one??). Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” or complement Max, and bring him into “balance”? Could she possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection, at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing, and how the visions play into the powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “planted” visions like Tess is able to do). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps!) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions of Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifter, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? The vision seems similar to that Liz gets in SH when see “sees” the orb being buried. Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has this come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run”? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully, and the third being the path we are on now!) OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY, and it prevented him from turning it over to the other aliens - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug him – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed! Does he really “know” as Kyle seems to think Max always does?

I want to add something about Liz’s hero journey here, but it is late, and I am tired. So it will have to wait – but trust me – Liz’s appears to be taking that journey!

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the podsquad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Ummmmm?

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! TEOTW occurs in 2014! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Recently, “Run, Lola, Run” was referred to (Surprise) as the story of Liz’s life. Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the podsquad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seem to be confined to their husks. But the Skins and Max’s alien predecessor’s kind seem to have been from different races. Many of us think that the podsquad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without notice? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race of aliens on Earth (a third race of aliens)? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? If Ava knew that Liz had been changed by Max’s healing, shouldn’t Harding have known? AND if he did know, why didn’t he divulge this information? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee” – and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection.

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across. I have added dates from the Crashdown Timeline and the Whitaker Diaries, but they are questionable, and have no basis in episodes aired, so take them with a grain of salt.

1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1990 - Maria's Dad leaves when Maria is 7 (SH)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
11/11/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex wind up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max & Liz share their first kiss (Heatwave)
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this – WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Importance of HAND HOLDING and the V pattern :-).

Liz and the "V" constelation - Liz as VENUS:

Liz as the keeper of/key to the granolith - here is the granolith chamber:

And here is a picture of the granolith chamber with a UFO hovering next to it in the Crashdown:

Liz and Max as twin souls - symbolized in the yin-yang swirl on the orb that was "activated" by their union in Sexual Healing.

Thanks to Shapeshifter and Redhawk for the images :-)

TRIANGLE: One of the most powerful and versatile geometric symnbols. This equilateral triangle sitting on its base is a male and solar sign representing divinity, fire, life, the heart, the mountain and ascent, prosperity, harmony and royalty. The reversed triangle - possibly a more ancient sign - is female and lunar, representing the great mother, water, fecundity, rain, heavenly grace. The God of the Christian Trinity is sometimes represented by an eye within a triangle. Alchemy used triangles as the signs for fire and water. It is used as a sign for God or for harmony.
In antiquity, it was regarded as a symbol of light. For many people, it is a symbol of God's strength, beauty and wisdom, of the balance between heaven and earth, of the perfect harmony between beings.

BTW, today is December 7th, Shiri's 22nd. Birthday, and I just wanted to wish her the most wonderful and happy of all birthdays!

Blue, I believe the orbs are actually more as satellites to the Granilith as opposed to remote controls (remote controls to me imply that the orbs have some direct power which might activate [fast forward, rewind, slomo ] the Gran). Presumedly, Liz was receiving the messages from the orb in SH, but the orb - I feel - was actually getting those images from the Granilith; as did Momogram.

I'm also anxiously awaiting Max introduce (present, changed [?]) Liz to the Granilith (although she was in the pod chamber once when both orbs were activated). I can't tell you how giddy I'd be if our Liz starts to reach up to the Granilith (or simply is in it's presence) and something *weird* happens. The Gran starts humming louder, Liz gets a vision, the thing starts spinning, whatever. Mel will be UBERgiddy.

Ok, there could be nothing here, but does anyone find it a tad odd and/or convenient all four podsters were in the Granilith chamber in So47 (?), yet the thing seemed to be entirely unresponsive. "Hey! Granilith! Royal Four here!! Legendary aura... Once and Future King, 2nd in command yada yada... "Destiny" of Twilo... nevermind..." I do believe the momogram was coming from the Gran. and *Liz* was in the chamber when "mom" appeared (and has been present I believe every time the orb[s] have been at all active)... coincidence?! Liz is connected to the orbs = Liz is connected to the Granilith.

Yes, Liz was in the chamber with Max in 2014 (and it WAS activated with her there, ahem ), but once again, going back to the "Royal Four balance each other" idea; well it's not a far stretch I feel to stay that perhaps it's the Royal Four AND Liz that are the complete balance. Which is possibly why the Gran. was silent (or if we're to assume that humming sound WAS some kind of acknowledgement to the Royals... however I doubt that) with just the Royals. The Royal Four alone won't activate the Granilith or orbs, but with Liz there - the switchboards light up.

Melodious

Oh! Yeah! There is a reason why I'm here I was reading over the cut scenes from EOTW and the very first one with the Royal 4 in the granilith room jumped at me. Why? Because it reminded me of the Roswell High book series. Has anyone else read them? If you have then you'll understand better. In the books whenever the aliens and humans (Liz, Maria, and Alex) held hands they would make a Connection and add some Oomph to the powers the aliens had and would do amazing things that alone they wouldn't be able to do; well in the cut scene T*** suggests they hold hands to see what happens, she says something like "... maybe together we can do something we can't do apart.." (sorry, not exact quote). NEways what I'm trying to get is is it possible the writers are taking this from the book series?! ( very exited, typing as fast as fingers will allow ) AND more importantly, and the point of this post, WILL Liz play an important part in this? We already know she has some change (powers?) in her, so will she be vital in this too?

Sorry if this makes no sense, ramble...
Any thoughts? Feedback? Further developments on this idea?

Although the writers did edit this scene, but will they add it in a future eppy?

Yes, Liz was in the chamber with Max in 2014 (and it WAS activated with her there, ahem ), but once again, going back to the "Royal Four balance each other" idea; well it's not a far stretch I feel to stay that perhaps it's the Royal Four AND Liz that are the complete balance. Which is possibly why the Gran. was silent (or if we're to assume that humming sound WAS some kind of acknowledgement to the Royals... however I doubt that) with just the Royals. The Royal Four alone won't activate the Granilith or orbs, but with Liz there - the switchboards light up.

Melodious
Mel
You have the best ideas on orbs!

I find it weird too about how the mommogram pointed at Max and addressed the podsters-- almost as if the message was in real time. (Not that I really think it was.) If Liz didn't belong in the pod chamber, I feel the technology was sophisticated enough not to 'play' if an outsider was present. Whether or not Liz was addressed by Mommogram, it seems pretty unlikely now as season two plays out.

Mommogram said nothing about the granolith. You'd think that she may have wanted to let them know, "Hey, behind the pods is a big religious object that will be a source of power for you."

I was reading the last two pages of thread #20.

shapeshifter Your motive idea seems very good. The reason why the shooters shot Liz was to force Max to heal Liz, and thus change her.

Starbox The granolith picture in the CD is very eerie.

general comment
I am thinking of changing the quote from "Liz is not an alien" to "If Liz has powers, then Kyle has powers". If this is how the writers want to go, then everyone has to follow the tow. But I appreciate the fact that everyone put up with all my Liz posts on her humanness. A status she still has, just modified or enhanced.

Although the writers did edit this scene, but will they add it in a future eppy?

Well, sunrise, they did exactly that! In Harvest, when Max is doing his shield thing (at the funeral), Tess grabs him and adds her power to his.

By the way, welcome to this thread. Your info (to the left of your post) is the only one I've seen that does not show when you registered, or how many posts you've made. Have you been on here long?

For dreamers everywhere. L/M more than friends again? Leading us further into Liz's mythological importance? Can't wait.

(actually, I really wanted to play with the smilies too! )

Anne

I considered making you a little image of a tictac, but realized it would just look like another orb!

Blue, Mel, et al, I love the idea of Liz's presence turning on the Granolith (I mean, it works for Max ), but I will live up to my devil's-advocate-wet-blanket reputation here since I think the writers are likely to go that way (they Sooo love to create obstacles): I am thinking that even thought Liz will make the granolith get excited, Tess will be there too and will think it has something to do with her own presence. In the A. A. Milne version of Winnie the Pooh one of the animals innocently takes credit for something that is really owing to another.

And Qfanny, I'm glad you caught my shooter-motive-revelation. It just seems so obvious now that Ava has told us how important it is to be "brought back."

Bluecornmoon - Great idea! I have thought all along that the granolith was some kind of transport device that when altered, can be used for time travel. (Melodious-I realize this is very simplistic compared to your humming recognition wishes; go easy on me; I don't have your imagination!) At first I wondered if it had some kind of healing ability, when CW says they need it for the 50 year old skins that were just about finished, but now I'm wondering if it is the only "fast!" transport between the 5 planets and earth, thereby the only way for the skins or anyone to get back to the easier climate of the home planets and also keeping the enemies from the other planets from being able to join the EA on earth and help them destroy M/M/I (&T or A?) once they are finally located. Perhaps at the time of the original conflict on Twilo, when the pods were sent for safe keeping to earth, skins or other evil aliens tried to follow to destroy them and then became stranded themselves. The granolith might have been secreted out of Twilo and sent ahead of the ship that carried the pods to reduce the chance that the EA/skins would be able to locate the pods and destroy them before they could "hatch" or accomplish whatever it is they are to accomplish before going back and freeing Twilo. In other words, kind of giving the podsters a grace period, a safe time in which to grow up, before the reality and threat of their destinies started directing their lives. I realize this makes the granolith little more than a pretty fancy machine, not with all the abilities the rest of you are coming up with!

I don't put much significance in Lonnie's description of the granolith as a "religious" object; I think she used that to either throw Max off what it really is, or because she has no clue--just that she doesn't get to go home unless Nicholas gets it.

Oh, one more thing: Ava HAS to be the 4th podster, the defective one with the goop dripping out of it. She is the only one who hasn't used her powers (at least
that I can think of) because she doesn't have any! (Goes along with Lonnie's "Why are YOU here?" speech.) I think we are going to see her again to perhaps eventually replace Tess, but that means the writers will continue to write Tess both ways: protecting and working with the podsters at the same time giving us all reasons to suspect her motives. It certainly keeps us all guessing!

Anyway - Great granolith ideas all around!

Chica

It really helps to take time and read the summary on each new thread. I often get so fixated on one section of the Roswell saga that I forget the bigger picture. Your summary helps remind me of all the great ideas, facts, comments, etc. that make this a truly unique experience. In other words, you help me keep the balance!

Thanks, again.

Ree99

Okay maybe someone could answer some questions for me. First, someone mentioned that there could have been a switch between Tess and Ava, and when watching the show I had thought of that too. I kind of liked the idea at first because Tess does not seem like she can be trusted and Ava did.

It seemed like the New York podsquad all showed stronger signs of the bad traits that the Roswell podsquad had. Althought Michael seems to get tired of Max being in charge all the time,Rath was willing to kill Zan to be the leader. Lonnie betrayed her brother, as did Valandra (really the only thing Isabel has done is kept the truth about Valandra from Max). Zan was too much of a leader, almost a tyrant, he did not care what the others had to say. His word was the last word. Now about Ava - this is where I thought there could be a switch because Tess does seem so much more power hungry and untrustworthy. But what if there was a switch? Couldn't this be a bad thing? What if the person Zan was waiting for was Tess? I hate that thought though, I would much rather he be waiting for his Liz (which some mentioned might be Serena)

Then the other thing was about Larek. Larek and Brody could be one and the same and if so it is terrible that he is getting close to Maria. Maria has a big mouth and she knows the location of the granalith which could be a bad thing. Larek could be using her to help bring Max down.

Anyway just some thoughts.

CHICA--I agree with you about Max not really knowing that Liz is lying I thought that half smile of his was almost like he was forcing himself to smile because he still feels hurt but is trying to get beyond it. And I also hope that Max figures out on his own if he ever gets his brains back that LIZ would never do that to him and there has to be a very good reason for what she is doing.

If anyone has info, would you PM me? Many thanks.

Oh chica, please don't be putting me (or the imagination) on some kind of pedestal. The day will come I will say something REALLY crazy (I mean, crazier than usual ) and you're going to be totally disappointed in me!

btw, I also love your thoughts on the Granilith!

quote:I don't put much significance in Lonnie's description of the granolith as a "religious" object; I think she used that to either throw Max off what it really is, or because she has no clue--just that she doesn't get to go home unless Nicholas gets it.

I suppose this could go either way. It wouldn't surprise me that Lonnie could have been lying to throw Max off. Although Nikolas (in HARVEST, granted should also be taking anything this guy says with a grain of salt) did give me the impression that the Royals seemingly were also idolized and/or worshipped. So we get from Lonnie that the Granilith was worshipped and Nikolas seemingly gives the same impression of the Royals themselves (surrounded by this "legendary aura"). The Royals were the keepers / users / protectors of the Granilith? This is why they were (possibly) worshipped?

Melodious

We've basically had this ROYAL FOUR stuff crammed down our throats since the beginning of Season 2. "Must protect the Royal Four..." "The legendary Royal Four..." blah blah blah. However, are we to assume that all of our *four* podsters are indeed these "Royal Four"? What if there are indeed FOUR Royals, but one of our podsters isn't one of them? There's another Royal out there, yet sent a different way.

Here's how it might work (coinciding with the Momogram, although thru the other interpretations I've read in here, 5 individuals, not 4):

King (royalty - Max)
Young Bride (royalty - Liz)
King's sister (royalty - Isabel)
King's sister's betrothed (royalty - Michael)
2nd in Command (NOT royalty - Tess)

OR

King (R - Max)
Young Bride (R - Tess)
King's sister(R - Isabel)
King's sister's betrothed (R - Michael)
2nd in Command (NR - Liz)

Four podsters, the King, his Sister and sister's betrothed I feel definitely are three sent in the pods. The *royal* status of the 2nd in Command I put into question (did he *really* need to be royalty to be the King's 2nd? He could have been a General or military man of some kind, but not necessarily royalty imo). Either the King's Young Bride or the 2nd in Command was sent a *different* way (exclusively for my insatiable need to tie Liz into all of this somehow ).

If I thought the WB had the cajones, I'd say Tess was Isabel's (Vilondra's) betrothed, but I doubt they'd go there. However, Nikolas did seem to recognize Michael as the 2nd in Command (Harvest)... although is Nikolas honestly all that reliable concerning the identities of the podster Royals? It took the Skins *50 years* to finally find them and seemingly Nik didn't even consciously think Iz was Vilondra (despite the staring in the Crawford living room) until Iz mentioned Whitaker telling her about Vilondra; then it seemed the bells went off in Nik.

I'd have thought the Podians would have made it also VERY difficult for these "enemies" to distinguish the podsters from at least normal humans... but maybe even went a step further and made them difficult to distinguish once they were found.

Something else that's been nagging at me contributing to the above is a line from Momogram...

You perished in the conflict that enslaves our planet but your essence was duplicated, cloned, and mixed with human genetic materials so that you might be recreated into human beings.

The sexes of the Royals were also never truly distinguished (although granted, with how the sexes are dispersed amongst the podsters, one easily can assume who is who and have a 50/50 shot of getting them right postMomogram). Perhaps Tess IS the King's Sister's betrothed?? The Podians switched the sexes possibly to throw off the enemy (everyone believes she's the bride, because that's seemingly the logical answer. 2 males and a female have their place, the short blond female MUST be the Young Bride, yet she isn't)? This would still make Michael the 2nd in Command (hence Nik did correctly identify Michael).

Although this would seem to mean (since, acc. to Tess, the podsters reproduce the "human" way):

1. Destiny NEVER meant that they had to mate to survive?
2. The pairings are insignificant on Earth?

This is really crazy... even for me (I need to go back writing fanfic or something!).

Melodious

P.S.: Nana J and all other Twilo puzzlers, to see the scoop on GraceKel's reference, go to http://members.aol.com/speaker606/jim/tv.html and scroll down to #15.

Also, I don't know how significant it is that the podsters at that point had emerged from their pods 10 years ago, and it was the 10th annual ufo convention, which also lasted 3 days.

DeeDee

This is very plausible, at this point the only person we know for certain is one of the Royal 4 is Max: In MITC we learned that only the King would have the royal seal and his planet stenciled on his brain, which Max does.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Melodious1:

Here's how it might work (coinciding with the Momogram, although thru the other interpretations I've read in here, 5 individuals, not 4):

King (royalty - Max)
Young Bride (royalty - Liz)
King's sister (royalty - Isabel)
King's sister's betrothed (royalty - Michael)
2nd in Command (NOT royalty - Tess)
********************************************
What I got from the mommogram was that Michael was bethroled to Isabel and Max's second in command. Michael assumes this too, remember in either Ask Not, or Skin and Bones, Michael told Max I was your second in command, I know that you used to listen to me.
I don't know, you'd think they would be disguised better. And maybe they are. In Whitaker's diary she stated that she was unsure about who was who, thinking that maybe they we're twitched around to confuse the enemy.

I am really thinking that Liz was ALWAYS in the picture. I keep coming back to the fact that in Pilot Max tells Liz "I have thought of telling you (about being an alien) a thousand times". He was not even FRIENDS with her - but obviously - he felt very, very deeply "connected" to her - way before the healing. And that goes back to the core of WHO Max is - and the fact that his intuition and ability to "sense" ththings ("Max knows, Max always knows", "Just follow your heart". "Use your abilities to see the evil within") is such an important gift.
And this goes back to all the references of "soulmates".
And all the songs they play that seem to strongly suggest a past lifetime - especially the cut song from EOTW (wonder if thats why they changed it)
And the "Run Lola Run" clue - (which I was thinking about the other day - and remember how at one point both Lola and Mannie each talk about what would happen if they DIE - and sort of question what the other's response would be - this sort of fits in with the "TESS" test)

I just bought the Dido CD and I know its been mentioned - but the very first line of Here With Me goes "I didnt hear you leave - I wonder why am I still here? And I dont want to move a thing - cause it might change my MEMORY". Think of this in the context of max's line about "wanting to tell Liz a thousand times", his instant recognition of her as a child, the fact that Zan seemed to be 'waiting for someone". I really believe that Liz is the true soulmate - across time and space and everything else :-) - her story began much earlier than 17-18 years ago.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Cut Scenes--I wish they had shown that scene with Max feeling so uncomfortable when Tess touched him. It would have made that last scene mean so much more (in terms of having changed the future—I would never think it meaningful in any other way—believe you me!!). It would also make sense that the Pod Squad would try to focus their energies together since that is all they know how to do to get results. Ahh, in the interest of time! I am glad they cut the scene with Mdme. Vivian at the end. That would have been a horrible ending! I like the way JK did TEOTW ending. I think I’m going to shed a tear .

Bluecornmoon, thank you for your information on the triangle.

Still trying to catch up. By the way, when I said iMAXulate, it was not meant to mean by God, but by Max somehow.

Just had a few thoughts while reading through everyone's great insights. And, of course, they're MOSTLY questions!

What if Lonnie IS the T we saw Max bring back to Roswell? What if somehow she has shapeshifted into T and is now in Roswell? What about the T / Max relationship? I don't want that to go anywhere, but what if it did and it was ACTUALLY Lonnie "in there"? Wouldn't that be like brother and sister kissing!? YUCK!

I love the ideas about the Granolith and Miz, Melodious1. I'm so curious for the day that Liz goes in there and checks this whole thing out. Then again, I'm with whomever said that writers will through some sort of twist in connecting T to the Granolith. JUST like the writers to leave us dazed and confused. The question will be though.. will Liz get some sort of vision? Maybe of Serena? Maybe of the "crystal"? OOoOoOoOoo.

What about Kyle? What WILL the writers do abotu Kyle? I mean, I really want this "changed" factor to be simply a Liz trait, but Kyle was healed as well and Ava only said, "if he brought you back, he's changed you" (or something to that extent). He brought back Kyle to. Is that why Kyle's been so spiritual this season?

Finally, WHY DIDN'T THEY ASK THE "DUPES" ABOUT THEIR SS/LEADER/GLOWEY ALIEN? I just don't understand why they didn't ask about WHO brought them to NY and HOW they knew so much and WHERE that "person" is now?? These guys certainly wouldn't do well as cops - they STINK at "questioning the suspects"!

We know that there are markings in Machu Pichu, Peru, markings that are the same as the drawings in Nasedo's cave (Balance). Maybe hundreds of years ago some of the aliens related to Max came to earth , to live? Maybe to study this planet? For a possible refuge with an impending war? Might've been looking to start a new life on a new world?? The human race did it with America, though it was on the same planet. Maybe these aliens settled here, and lived here for hundreds of years, and after pro-creating with humans over all those hundreds of years. Their descendants evolved into humans, all the way down to human cells, but the alien essence and power lies dormant within it's descendants. Maybe even the alien DNA is there, but can only be detected by extensive DNA testing ( I don't know if this is plausible). This leads us to Liz, maybe she's a descendant of this alien race, and her connection to Max is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. Maybe it stated that a galaxy (the 5 worlds) would be in serious conflict, a conflict that will destroy them all, and the only way these worlds will be saved is by a union between a young king of the ruling planet and a descendant from an ancient alien race who's souls are connected by the spiritual power of the Granolith (they are from the same planet: their pasts are parallel: they worshipped the same god etc., that helps to form the connection). They are the chosen ones. Maybe is stated that this descendant would be assassinated, but reserrected, and as a result her power will be awaken. And from there, the journey begins………… This could possibly be a scenario for Liz.

Fate or some other force is definitely stepping in with Liz and Max. I feel the only reason why they're apart right now is so that they can become stronger in their powers, and more focused on their destinies. To learn how to balance their love with their destiny, which is saving both Twilo and Earth.

On another note, I still have questions about that mommogram too?? We still don't know why Tess/Ava is here?? Yeah Yeah, she has awesome powers that help, but what is her real purpose? Just to keep Max/Zan company and produce an heir to the thrown. At least Izzy was a warrior, and Michael was second in command. And if I were mom I'd still be skeptical about sending Izzy/Lonnie after what happened in the past, since they seem so hell bent on making sure they relieve their past, with the exception of losing the war. And then there's the question of their powers. Did they have powers in the past??? Mom says "Learn enough about your powers" Ummmm. Was that one of the other reasons they we're sent to Earth cause our brains can do so much more, maybe even more than theirs, they might be smarter, smarter as far as creating stuff, but projecting power etc., they don't have that. Maybe that's how the skins won the war, they had powers, and the podsters didn't, plus Izzy's betrayal. Maybe is when the aliens came to earth all those hundreds of years ago they realized when they mixed alien dna with human dna (by having a child), the alien intelligience mixed with the human intelligience was phenomenal. Therefore powers came from this? As a result Earth and it's inhabitants DNA was chosen as the place for the podster reincarnation????

I couldn't agree more, but it did seem that T** started down this route in MITC and was rebuked by Lonnie with her response of "what is up with you and all these questions about the shapeshifter?!"

Frustrating, yes! But I couldn't really argue with T**'s lack of renewed questioning as both her and Max didn't trust Lonnie & Rath + they had just arrived in a large, unfamiliar city and were in the Dupes' crib (sort of at the Dupes' mercy since Max & T** were at a disadvantage).

I am interested in learning more about the prophecy theory...
I have recently watched the film "The Dark Crystal" in which the Crystal is a powerful conical object, looking much like the Granolith. The people were embarking upon "a golden age"-much like Courtney had mentioned about our Podsters. The leaders became arrogant and damage the crystal, destroying the balance of good and evil. Evil began to reign.
A side note: the crystal also has the ability to steal the essesnce of people.

However, a prophet came among them- saying that the crystal would be repaired by the hand of another race and that the balance would again be restored. This prophecy is what pluges the world into war with evil prevailing- and virtually wiping out every other race of people on the planet. Except (of course) for the one destined to repair the crystal and restore balance to the world.

The idea that Liz could be the one intened to use the Granolith (or repair it???) sticks with me. The Granolilth could have been key to plunging Twilo into war, with evil prevailing. They then send the defeated "good" to Earth (with the Granolith) to complete the prophecy and restore the balance.

There is more swirling in my head...have to think about it more for later...

HHF

See you all soon!

Maxcedo: Some of the best cut scenes in Destiny was the Mom-o-gram saying that they had to help Earth liberate itself first from the evil ones, AND THEN go to Twilo to help them!

Chica: I always wondered how could they have left four babies "alone in the woods" for six years, specially these four babies! Post information acquired with MITC, I understand that they were in the most secured hands they could possibly be! The Granolith was, and still must be, their baby-sitter. Giving them energy to grow, protecting them, cuddling them, standing guard over them! I wonder how much it charges per hour?

Behr&FehrFan: Maria has a big mouth? I don't think so. She has never spilled anything anybody has ever told her! She may have a wacky reputation but she is as steadfast as you need a friend to be! And every vibe I have of Brody is that he is what he appears to be: a good guy! (at least I hope so! I really like him a lot and my instincs are "usually" right!).

Back to the Granolith: I'll assume, thanks to Redhawk's pictures, that the Whirlwind Galaxy symbol not only represents Max but him, Liz and the Granolith, (the triangle in the middle). It means balance and harmony and the three of them do make the perfect combination: Max is the Owner/Guardian, Liz is/will get the key and with the power of the Granolith, they'll accomplish whatever it is that they have to accomplish (Earth the sixth planet in the Federation? :lol. I had thought previously that the Royal Four and Liz were the complete unit that will vanquish the evil ones and bring peace and prosperity to the planets (including Earth), but I'm starting to think the other three (Michael, Isabel, Ava), are only helpers who are there to assist them but don't have a say in working the Granolith. I've also changed my opinion as to what the Granolith will do when Liz comes in! Maybe nothing, because she has not fulfilled her destiny yet (telephaty?), and it'll only happen after she has acquired/developed her powers. My question is: how will she fulfill her destiny? Is it by cementing with Max (Pleeease?), or, as FMax seemed to imply, by not cementing with Max? That is THE question and, I hope, for a change, the writers are magnanimous and remember us poor Dreamers when they make their decision!

There are so many storylines the writers could use?

Any ideas?

It may take many moons, but I would love for the writers to clear up:

(1) Why did the brillant minds of Antar choose human DNA and Earth for it's destination?

(a) Emotions; apparently their planet was lacking thereof.

(2) Why was Max instantly attracted to Liz?

(a) Soulmates; but honestly I would love for the writers to explain this one.

(3) What took Nasedo so long to find the other three pods? Why did not tell them about the Dupes?

(a) Got me on this one, maybe the writers will reveal in future eps.

(4) Who protected the Dupes when they were children?

(a) TicTac???

(5) Why the would Dupes have more memory of their past lives than the pod squad?

(a) Something to do with the leaking pod in 1947?

(6) Why was an innocent pregant woman killed (S. Hubble)? What was the purpose?

(a) Got me on this one.

(7) Since the healing has Liz's brain capacity evolved to that of the hybrids?

(a) Yes, but she will need practice.

(8) Was it fate that Max and Liz met, what was the purpose?

(a) Max & Liz are destined to be together, purpose for the good of his planet and earth. Well then you will argue EOTW but that destiny "avenue" was altered but there are infinite avenues. Fate brought FMax to PLiz.

(9) And the Granolith?

(a) There is an connection that Liz has with it, I hope Serena comes into play pretty soon.

(10) Will the pods be able return to their planet?

(a) Probably.

(11) Will Liz be able to travel with Max as his Queen?

(a) Yes!

LOL - this was fun! There are so many possibilities on this particular subject that is absolutely intriguing! Thanks folks

DeeDee

A Dreamer that will never waiver

Bluecornmoon: I agree—Maria would never spill the beans! She didn’t tell Max Liz was in town in S&B, did she? I think she may give hints, but she would never tell. Even Liz said in “Monstors” that underneath Maria there is a reserve (well that is what I inferred).

I am interested in learning more about the prophecy theory...
I have recently watched the film "The Dark Crystal" in which the Crystal is a powerful conical object, looking much like the Granolith. [/B]

Just a totally random dark crystal comment - my husband swears that Tess looks just like the gelfling.
:-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

HE'S SO RIGHT!!!!

Thats what I keep wondering too. I think its when he was engineered.

quote:Could it just be Liz's extremely advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

I sooo love that quote. Everytime I read "Hubble" I think telescopes , scientists ...I have a strong belief in the Indian theory too (pardon me I get a little queasy when I hear the word 'Indian' ). I think that Liz is somehow the "fifth element" (I love that theory too ) in the prophecy and that she is a direct decendant from the granolith protectors. It is obvious someone from the Twilo planet had come to Earth before.. and something made them decide to keep the granolith here . Maybe a to make a past life max met a past life Liz again...

I don't buy the whole Tess "mate" thing cuz I don't wanna , even though she has such a sweet aura its hard to picture her as a . Perhaps King Max (:lol followed his "duty" in the past life and married Tess and all hell broke loose because he did not following his heart and the prophecy didn't turn out right that time around? Maybe thats what made everything fall apart...somehow tied into the Vilondra thing...

I think Liz is an Indian diety and she's an undercover Princess and Max has to add her into the equation to fullfill the prophecy of following your heart and not your "duty" cause she's obviously very faithful . I'm such a dreamer. We need more details about the Vilondra thing though and they should start adding the Indian stuff (:look into the plotline ....

quote:
King (royalty - Max)
Young Bride (royalty - Liz)
King's sister (royalty - Isabel)
King's sister's betrothed (royalty - Michael)
2nd in Command (NOT royalty - Tess)
~~Melodious

OH! OH! :hotpinkie! THAT is brilliant. And Bluecornmoon you keep amazing me with your descriptions I love reading your informative threads You guys are soo smart

p.s. Believer LOVE your new avatar

Just rewatched MITC (I will be PMing you about the click GarceKel!) and I noticed something kind of intriguing.
When Liz comforts Ava - she is wearing pajamas with diamonds framed by half moons - kind of like this if the plus sign were a diamond - (+). Now what is intriguing is that a similar symbol (a diamond inside of a completed oval) appears very clearly as grafitti as soon as Liz "dematerializes" from NY. Max looks across the street and says "LIZ" and you see the symbol.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

[b]HHF I The Dark Crystal! Good ideas all, but none of the other planets knew that the granolith was gone till the summit, so why would a war have started about it?

shapeshifter & bluecornmoon I agree that it would be facinating to watch Zan & Max compete for Liz! Also, blue, thx for fleshing out & then reposting the triangle info. i was working from memory alone--no reference books at work!

quote from Dayneen:

"Fate or some other force is definitely stepping in with Liz & Max. I feel the only reason why they are apart right now is so that they can become stronger in their powers, and more focussed on their destinies. To learn how to balance their love with their destiny, which is saving both Twilo and Earth."

Dayneen, that is EXACTLY what I've been thinking (& posting--but I'm not sure that it was here! ) Max was holding on too tight to Liz. In "Ask Not" (I think), when he says he doesn't care about his planet, etc., and "Know this: I'm coming for you, Liz," it's a very romantic moment but ultimately self-destructive. Max needed to do a little growing up. Things CAN'T go back to the comparably uncomplicated way they were in the beginning--life doesn't work that way. It's hard enough to be that idealistic when you're an ordinary person--that kind of thinking has NO place in a king. Only by having Liz force him to put distance between them is he learning that, and he's growing as a person and as a leader--it's visible. That cut scene from EOTW, where Max doesn't want to hold Tess's hand, is important b/c we know that THAT much, at least, has changed. I think that Max was afraid that if he let himself be friends with Tess, he wouldn't be able to control himself, or some such rot. I think he didn't believe enough in his love for Liz. but now, that love is being tested, and he's finding that it's unbreakable.

I also believe that the info re: Future Max absolutely cannot come from Liz telling him. Along with MANY other Dreamers, I believe some kind of flash is the best option (are you listening, TPTB? ), but Liz cannot tell him. It would compromise her integrity as a person. I don't think it would be good if it came from Maria, either, partly because I think it would devastate Max if he knew that Liz broke down and told Maria...but not him. Kyle would be a good choice; a flash would still be the best.

Alexis i d Lois & Clark, too, but I hope they don't make us wait that long for an M/L reunion! I LIKE the idea of twin souls, and that the sould are not confined to one race of people but may reincarnate in any race. This idea shows up in Babylon 5, too: the Mbari are about to win the war against Earth, when they capture an Earth military captain and, to their horror, discover that his soul is that of one of their ancient revered spiritual leaders. They immediately surrender & begin peace proceedings, based solely on that fact.

More twin souls: in Mercedes Lackey's series of Valdemar novels (my personal faves--that's where my new sig quote's from), there is a rare process called "lifebonding." It's a soul-deep bond of love between 2 people, and it's fairly rare. It tends to occur in those personalities who would otherwise lose themselve in work, etc., so that they always have a firm anchor to the world. Interestingly, it does happen frequently to the Monarch ( a prime candidate for an anchor, i'd say!). Anyway, the bond between 2 lifebonded peole is at such a deep level that innate magical energy can be shared, something that is not possible between any 2 mages. It's speculated that it's because on such a deep level, the souls are not recognized as being separate entities--they are seen as one soul. Additionally, when Vanyel's lifebonded dies (usually when one half of a lifebonded couple dies, so does the other half--but there were extenuating circumstances for him), he (note: this is a fab series, but the hero is gay--if that bothers anyone here--not likely!) is later reincarnated as a completely different person who ALSO lifebonds with Vanyel, even though Vanyel DOES NOT KNOW that this is the reincarnation of his first lifebonded.

OK, I have one more bit to talk about, but I'm going to start another post b/c this one's already too long!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Thats exactly what I've been thinking ! Good one!...

I also believe that the info re: Future Max absolutely cannot come from Liz telling him. Along with MANY other Dreamers, I believe some kind of flash is the best option (are you listening, TPTB? ), but Liz cannot tell him. It would compromise her integrity as a person. I don't think it would be good if it came from Maria, either, partly because I think it would devastate Max if he knew that Liz broke down and told Maria...but not him. Kyle would be a good choice; a flash would still be the best.
**************************************
I hope no one opens there mouth either. It would be so great if Max sat down on the chair FMax was sitting on when he was talking to Liz on her balcony and it all comes rushing to him, what FMax wanted Liz to do. I can just see PMax re-living all of FMax's feeling etc., It being sort of like a deja vu'/memory type thing. That would be totally awesome!

It say that Kyles mom left in 1989 and Maria's dad left in 1993? how can that be!

Remember in Sexual healing Maria says "Yeah. Um...that dog died when I was, like, 7. Right after my father left." (from Crashdown)

If she was 7ish then he would have left around 1989 and 1990 right? right around when kyles mom left.

Also, does anyone else wonder why they didn't elaborate when Isabel said "Maybe I'll get a flash of their location or something, so...go ahead" then she said "Nothing relevant to the current crisis" (from Crashdown Sexual healing ep)

okay here is the whole segment: (from Crashdown.com)
ISABEL: Maybe I'll get a flash of their location or something, so...go ahead.
ALEX: Oh...yes. Yes, ma'am. (Alex steps over to Isabel and kisses her)
ISABEL: Nothing.
ALEX: Oh.
ISABEL: Nothing relevant to the current crisis

It seems to me that Isabel did get a flash when she kissed Alex?

vicous~critter

For those who didn't watch it/don't remeber it, Captain Benjamin Sisko of DS9 turned out to be a religious figure called the Emissary, for the Bajorans (DS9 was located by Bajor, their homeworld). Sisko was not Bajoran--he was 100% human, from Earth. HOWEVER, fairly late in the series he takes a trip to Earth to visit his father. Ben's mother left when he was very little, and his dad never talked about her much as it was too painful. By the time of this visit, Ben is already established as the Emissary of the Prophets. The Prophets are the Bajoran gods, who are actually real. They are, in fact, aliens who live in the wormhole that exists beside Bajor (the reason it rated a space station like DS9). In return for the Bajorans's worship, the wormhole aliens keep the wormhole stable in space, with fixed entrance & exit points.

Anyway, during Ben's visit to his dad, he finds out that his mother, Sarah, was possessed by the Prophets in her youth, which led her to find Ben's dad and mate with him, specifically to produce Ben. He was destined to be the Emissary before his parents even met! And once her "job" was finished, and Ben was a healthy toddler, the Prophets released Sarah, and she left. So, although Ben is human and his parents were both human, he is still the product of an alien "essence." If something,like that happened to, say, GC or her lover/husband (Liz's grandfather), maybe that "essence" was passed down to Liz through her father. Maybe there was some reason Jeff couldn't manifest it--perhaps even so simple a thing as his sex; maybe it had to be a girl. Or, maybe contact with the original essence was necessary to activate it, and Max did that when he healed Liz. That would mean that Jeff could be activated by max, too, but not Kyle.

Also during that trip to Earth, Ben was led by visions of Sarah to a place on Earth where he found the Orb of the Emissary, a very powerful religious relic that was KEYED TO THE EMISSARY ALONE. Coincidence that Liz activated the orb in SH? I don't think so! I agree that however it may come to pass, Liz is the key to the orbs & the granolith. She is the essential element--as Zero would say, the fifth element.

Sorry for the double long rambles, but my brain was running in doubletime yesterday and I couldn't get on the d&*^ boards!! I wouldn't have been able to post this yesterday anyway--my boss was here then Hope this all made sense to SOMEONE, and I hope you'll all help me in refining these theories!! I've got to do some real work now I'll finish catching up on the very end of #20 later!

Pam

There are repeated references to "history repeating itself," which I think have been discussed here already. What I'd like to point out, is that Coutney said to Michael that his refusal to betray Max was part of what got everyone killed. Yet, apparently this did not hold for Rath, who totally betrayed Zan. Now, my thought is, could Dupe Rath's betrayal of Dupe Zan balance out Vilandra's betrayal of proto-Zan (the original version)? Proto-Rath did NOT betray, Dupe Rath DID; Vilandra (proto-Iz) DID betray, Isabel did NOT. Does that make sense to anyone? And, if they can change that part of their destiny--b/c I truly don't believe that Iz could ever be a traitor--then why should the rest be written in stone? Just something I wanted to throw out there; it' been bugging me I'm going to work now, I swear!

Bye!

But I recall seeing a Sci-Fi documentary on the "real" crash. Reported eye witnesses claimed that they believed it may have been 2 ships that crashed, possibley running into one another. I scanned through some transcripts and couldn't find any mention of 2 ships on the show, but that doesn't mean anything!

What if...

There were 2 ships one good, one bad. There was a crash, a couple died, a couple were caught, and several escaped by shape shifting into humans.

Nasedo could have been caught, and escaped the base...but was actually a bad guy. He's pretended to be good for 2 reasons. Find the Granolith, and to tell Tess she belongs with Max. (Since we all know that is a load of BS!!)

Maybe the podsquad need to get ahold of the files that Whitaker stole from Pierce. Who knows what kind of info Hal Carver never found out.

I would so love for Max to get a flash of FM to find out about the lie! That would be great. If they don't do it like that I will just have to close my eyes and imagine it!

Here is a quote:

SPACE.com: Roswell is a different form of science fiction television where the big sci-fi premise is this really huge backdrop and character is this little tiny thing that occasionally you squeeze in with rewrites.
But with Roswell, even when you’re dealing with big science fiction premises, you’ve got alien invasions, time travel and all that stuff, that the personal character stories are in the foreground more, and it’s much more of the interrelationship of how this particular alien invasion affects the dynamics of the group.

Ron Moore: Absolutely, that’s what we care about as writers on the staff. How do the events affect our group? How does it affect the Max/Liz relationship, what does it say about Michael, what can we learn about Isabel through this episode?
It’s really about this core group of people, and that’s what I think is the show’s unique charm. Science fiction is truly a background, even when it’s dominating

Anne

One image is from the Cave Wall, as seen in Balance after Michael replaces the stones into variouse symbols, which then glow to show the V constellation.

The other second image is from the drawing that Max made of the cave wall, "from memory", as discussed earlier in the same episode. (Failing that, the image of Michale standing on the plain with the symbols on the ground will do.)

Now, on Max's drawing, look at the line of symbols that start with a 'Swirl' type image, followed by an "8", an "inverted 7", a "C" etc. Got it? OK, now check the Cave Wall symbols. That initial "Swirl" is missing.

This has been bothering me for ages now, and I have been trying to decipher it's relevance. It MUST have some, otherwise why show it? I cannot believe that this is a continuity error. Great care has been taken with showing of these symbols.

So here is what I think. We know there were TWO sets of Pods. We Know there were two aliens who tooks the sets of pods away. We now know that one went to New York, while one stayed locally.

Lets backtrack a little. During their 'creation', the podster were installed with certain memories. The duplicates were created such that they would draw attention to themselves, be discovered first. They were decoys, and therefore had more memories, so that they seemed genuine. The "Royal" squad had fewer memories, but also had additional memories, such as the symbols. After the crash, Protector 1 tooks his pods to the Pod Chamber nearby, where the Granilith had aready been hidden. (Love the thoeries about the Chamber being a ship, but not convinced.) Protector 2 took his to New York. During the setting up, Protector 1 discovers something terrible. Perhaps he realises that one of the Pods are damaged. Maybe he discovered something unexpected, such as (perhaps) a substitution of one of the Podsters (Maybe instead of the real Bride, it is someone else?).

Unsure of what to do, he summons Protector 2. While waiting for his arrival, he paints the symbols on the Cave Wall, omitting the "Swirl" symbol to draw attention to it. When Protector 2 arrives, somehow both are caught by the FBI. Protector 2 escapes, while Protector 1 does not. Protector 2 (Nacedo) tries to keep watch over the two Pod Squads (especially the more important one), while avoiding the FBI. What if this symbol indicates that all is not right with Tess. Nacedo sees this, and misinterprets it. He changes the Tess/Ava Pods. Just to make sure, he creates the 'Book' showing that Max is supposed to be with Tess, and does all he can to make it so.

I believe that the omitted symbol is a warning, to Max, that neither Tess, nor Ava, are who they think they are. This *might* not be an act of treachery, but a deliberate ploy by Zan's family, perhaps as discussed earlier, hiding the Bride elsewhere. Maybe Tess was a member of Zan's court, one who loved Zan enough to volunteer for this thankless task, of portraying Zan's bride as a further decoy. What should have happened is that Tess was to persue Zan, to be with him as Rath and Lonnie were, facilitating the impression that Zan was with his bride, while Rath was with his betrothed. Ava was supposed to 'be there' for Max, while he waited for 'Liz' to walk into his life. Perhaps the shooter were Zan's suporters, setting their machinations in motion to draw the two together, knowing full well that Zan would never let Liz die, that he would risk his own life for her, as he had done before (speculation here).

Remember how Nicholas said that Max was once to powerful for him. Maybe as one of the Dupes, Tess is far stronger (being less human), and has the capacity to resist Nicholas's Mind Rapes inherent within her. Perhaps the place Max found her was not the place Rath/Lonnie took her, but she used some form of teleportational power (as 1wld4L/M said ) to put herself there, escaping from her enemies.

WR

Is she just full of bravado, thinking that Nicholas in a child's body could be manipulated? Or does she genuinely have a card to play?

Lonnie shapeshifted into Tess? I don't think so, and I sure hope not.

As for the Dupes reappearing? I hope not, ESPECIALLY not Zan. (Re Aliens can't kill Aliens, He wasn't killed by an alien, he was killed by a Truck.) Using Zan as a tool to keep Max and Liz apart is unrealistic. If what they have is true love, a Max look-a-like will not turn her head. It is Max's personality, his "essence" she loves. I knew a set of twins, and while very keen on one, I would never have dated the other, for any reason.

WR

In "The Lord of The Rings", when Frodo first meets Strider, he deduces that he is a friend because he believes an agent of the enemy would seem fair while feel foul. Strider deduces that he seems foul but feels fair.

So it is with Larek. At first, he seems foul, but feels fair. He seems to have information, but balks at giving anything of value. Some have seen this as only trying to confuse, or manipulate Max. What if Larek really is a friend, and wants to help. He doesn't actually say he represents a World. Maybe he is a representative of Zan's rebellious faction in case Zan does not attend.

Perhaps he breaks his conversation short when he realises that under the circumstances, his information may make things worse for Max, who is clearly struggling with everything. This could be why he stops, Max is not yet ready to learn the devastating truth. I wonder if Larek really is Brody, and not just a 'possession/'abduction'. Maybe Larek was a counsellor, or something, to Max. Maybe he has replaced Nacedo, and is keeping an eye on Max and co.

This might explain his getting close to Maria. You might argue that getting close to Liz would be better, but in this country, that is act of Treason.

WR

Maybe this is what happened at the end. Nicholas told Lonnie that the "freak with the Mohican" couldn't come back, and Rath was told that the "Treacherous Ho" has no place in their plans. So while each thought the other was caught up in the attempted Mind Rape of Tess, they 'zapped' each other. This in turn caused Nicholas to lose concentration, which gave Tess her opportunity to effect an escape.

BTW, the book Tess was reading in TEOTW. Sure it wasn't......
The Gripes of Rath?
Sorry, and don't worry, I won't give up my day job. word.

WR

In "Joan's Roswell Guide" for "Max In The City", Rath tells Max that the summit is between the leaders of the FIVE Planets, that the leaders of the other FOUR worlds will have representatives at this summit. When Max arrives, he is introduced to Larek (Brodie), Kathana, Sero and Hanak. who speak for their worlds. Max is told he speaks for his world. Nicholas arrives, and says that actually, Khivar will speak for his (Zan's) world, and that he (Nicholas) represents Khivar.

Here where my problem comes in. We have Max, Nicholas, Larek, Kathana, Sero and Hanak. I make that SIX. So what gives? Is one of these others a representative of Zan's planet? If so, why did he not make himself known to Zan/Max. The others would have known, so there was no need for any secrecy here. Is one of the others a Skin (Michael Worshipper?) like Khivar? Were there Six planets at one time, one of whose Sun is dying. and this is what started the war? Perhaps Kathana and Khivar shared a planet, and hostilities broke out? Each pulled the others in until ......
Anyone have any thoughts?

WR
( I thought it was time I chose an Avatar; my first choice didn't come out too well )

I LIKE IT!!
Building on this idea that Ava is a shapeshifter...what if she turns out to be Serena? oooooooh

I belive that Tess and Max were married, for how long, I'm not sure. I also believe that the marriage was arranged, for what particular or exact reason, I'm not sure. Hence, the destiny part.............

Of course, if they were sent together, then perhaps the aliens thought that they would all get together or whatever...but this is the part that bothers me

Why make two sets??? Destiny is not keep doing something "till you make it right" just my opinion.....

Now, the Max/Liz thing, very, very, simple!

Max and Liz may have been true soulmates in the past life, for WHATEVER reason, they were not allowed to be together, but the connection that they share is highly signifcant & deeply important to Max (the King) so....

Maybe they had it set up where Tess married Max (the King) but maybe for WHATEVER REASON, Liz's essence came another way to earth, we don't know the whole story or the realy truth about Tess/Ava.....

Just because you are married to somebody doesn't mean that person is the one for you....

I belive that Tess and Max were married, for how long, I'm not sure. I also believe that the marriage was arranged, for what particular or exact reason, I'm not sure. Hence, the destiny part.............

Of course, if they were sent together, then perhaps the aliens thought that they would all get together or whatever...but this is the part that bothers me

Why make two sets??? Destiny is not keep doing something "till you make it right" just my opinion.....

Now, the Max/Liz thing, very, very, simple!

Max and Liz may have been true soulmates in the past life, for WHATEVER reason, they were not allowed to be together, but the connection that they share is highly signifcant & deeply important to Max (the King) so....

Maybe they had it set up where Tess married Max (the King) but maybe for WHATEVER REASON, Liz's essence came another way to earth, we don't know the whole story or the realy truth about Tess/Ava.....

Just because you are married to somebody doesn't mean that person is the one for you....

WR, I've just assumed that Kavar has taken over Zan's planet. He may have originally been from another one of the 5 planets, he may actually be a SS "enslaving" the skins & SS's, who knows...he may be a "human" or decendant of one abducted many years ago and now has complete use of his brain, making him soooo powerful. Maybe that is why they chose to make Human/alien hybrids, to give an equal playing field.

Also, I think it's interesting how all of the Max/Tess lines ends up on the cutting room floor

Do these people back their claims up with examples? Don't get me wrong, I find the character of Tess interesting, but she seems (to me) to be the type who would back Max up whatever he does. Liz, on the other hand, will tell Max if he is wrong. Remember Toy House? "Take a psyche test Max, you ARE controlling!"

Liz makes Max weak? He seemed far from weak when he took their lives back from the FBI, after spending the night on the run, with Liz.

WR

I have also considered this idea WR. Going off on the idea that Zan (possibly) gave his life to his Young Bride (Liz) once before. Perhaps Zan *took the bullet* for his Bride, per se. Zan died and she lived. My insane imagination started brewing… I wondered if Khivar (Nikolas?) had possibly taken the Bride prisoner and/or the Bride died on a much later date than Zan? Possibly (if Liz is the Bride AND the key), the Bride is very important somehow (to the Granilith, to the future of the Kingdom, etc)? The Bride, however, rather than be any use to Khivar (and also not bearing the thought of living without Zan), possibly kills herself. Khivar disposes of the body. The Podians snatch up the body and are finally able to recreate the Bride and send her to Earth (1983). They had to send her a much different way than the other podsters (who had already been stewing, transforming or simply waiting for almost 50 years once the Bride finally reached Earth – the time has changed them)? Or because they lacked the resources to make another hybrid like the others, they sent her the best way they could? The Bride is impregnated in the body of a human woman (Nancy Parker) and the Bride lives as a normal human girl. She’s basically a normal human [initially, but is still a form of hybrid, just a different version than M/Mi/Iz/T], she also has this essence buried deep in her. The Podians realize – despite the *decoy bride* (Tess/Ava) sent – Zan/Max will recognize his true Bride regardless.

1989 (?) - Zan (Max) sees Liz from across the playground and instantly recognizes her, but not realizes who she is exactly. In order for them to recognize one another, Liz has to change. A VITAL change that NEVER occurred in Future Max/Liz’s timeline because they possibly *connected* way too soon? The *connection* possibly the *last step* in Liz’s change. This change needed to follow a series of steps of gradual development before *connecting* can ever take place. Future Max and Liz, in connecting the night of the Gomez concert, possibly distorted Liz’s change and she was somehow left *sterile* to it? Liz’s change was aborted somehow and her hybrid body (different than Max’s) was deformed? Hence Liz’s powers never surfaced in Future Max’s timeline.

quote:Maybe Tess was a member of Zan's court, one who loved Zan enough to volunteer for this thankless task, of portraying Zan's bride as a further decoy.

If I was going to get really dramatic with this, maybe Tess was possibly a close relation to the Young Bride (a sister perhaps)? The Podians even programmed her with memories of the Original Young Bride, to further authenticate the decoy and/or replacement. Zan/Max recognizes her possibly because she was such a close relation to his Young Bride but is also programmed with some of her memories? Zan/Max can sense the similarity but is also somehow sensing there’s something off with Tess (Dupe Max could also sense the *off* with Ava, which is why he never loved her, despite Ava loving him?)

This would be very cruel for Tess/Ava if it’s at all true – possibly made to love someone, but that plan became void when the True Bride was found, recreated and sent to Earth. Tess is still (and must be) a part of the group because she was made to complement them, yet will not be with this man she was made / programmed to love. The Podians/Zan Supporters thinking of the *good of the kingdom* and probably saw this as a “small price to pay”. However, it’s always been made evident imo that Tess/Ava is the *excluded* member… one of the podsters yet not one of them; the odd one out. Neither set had a real connection to Tess/Ava (and generally treated her rather negatively) because she’s not really supposed to be there and they can all sense it to some degree?

Future Max said Tess complements their powers, which is quite possibly true (Tess was a *safety clause* if the true Young Bride was never found?). But F.Max might have simply never realized that Liz is ALSO a part of this balance (as his true Bride, but never given the opportunity to recognize her as such due to above theory).

quote:What should have happened is that Tess was to pursue Zan, to be with him as Rath and Lonnie were, facilitating the impression that Zan was with his bride, while Rath was with his betrothed. Ava was supposed to 'be there' for Max, while he waited for 'Liz' to walk into his life.

Going along with the speculations of Ava/Tess being a replacement; Ava/Tess is *programmed* to pursue Zan and basically *pose* as the Bride (prior 1983, it was the Podians intent, if the YB never surfaced, Tess/Ava replace the YB completely, but the YB DID eventually surface). Until the true Bride (Liz) developed, Ava/Tess would be known as *the Bride* to everyone (including Max/Zan, however, possibly will never connect with her *knowing* she isn’t the one he’s supposed to be with). This was to protect the undeveloped Bride but also rather a stalling tactic until Liz was ready to be by Zan/Max’s side (after connecting).

quote:Perhaps the shooter were Zan's supporters, setting their machinations in motion to draw the two together, knowing full well that Zan would never let Liz die, that he would risk his own life for her, as he had done before (speculation here).

Zan supporters knew Liz had to change and KNEW Liz would be changed if Max *healed* her. Just like Ava seemingly knew. Which leads me to another speculation, perhaps the information in Ava [only Ava, not Tess?] was put in last minute by the Podians / Zan supporters who sent the true Bride prior Ava’s hatching?? Ava would know that she wasn’t to be with Zan after Dupe Zan or Max *found* and *changed* his true young bride? Ava knows that once the true YB was brought to Earth and found, Ava would step back and let the Bride be with Zan (because that’s how it MUST be, the Bride and her connection to Zan is too important).

Enter the shooters in 1999, knowing Max won’t let Liz die – Liz is shot, healed by Max (Zan, her husband). Change begins. Post-EOTW, in delaying their *connecting*, the current Liz has been given the opportunity to change adequately enough so when the pinnacle comes when Max/Liz *seal Liz’s change* (?) by connecting. Liz will not only recognize her husband and Zan/Max recognizes her, but will also be morphed/evolved into a podster (due to the way she was created). Or perhaps this is just REALLY wishful thinking by a Dreamer.

quote:Remember how Nicholas said that Max was once to powerful for him. Maybe as one of the Dupes, Tess is far stronger (being less human), and has the capacity to resist Nicholas's Mind Rapes inherent within her. Perhaps the place Max found her was not the place Rath/Lonnie took her, but she used some form of teleportational power (as 1wld4L/M said ) to put herself there, escaping from her enemies.

I don’t know if Tess is more powerful than the rest of the podsters, she might be. Maybe the Podians/Zan supporters made her purposefully more powerful (post 1983?) in order to compensate for the fact she’s not supposed to be with Zan/Max (but doesn’t realize it). So when the True Bride IS finally discovered, she will still have or feel she has a useful place amongst the podsters?

Melodious

They need to step up with that because Roswell is still in danger of being cancelled:frown:

anne I'm chagrined to say that I can't quite recall how Ben found out he was the Emissary. I believe it was communicated directly by the Prophets in a public ceremony with the Bajoran spiritual leaders, but I'm not 100% sure--it's been too long since I've watched it to be truly certain, though I AM sure that it was done in public, with spiritual witnesses. Sorry!

Be back later--DC's on in 5!

It says ...Maria's dad left in 1993? how can that be!

Remember in Sexual healing Maria says "Yeah. Um...that dog died when I was, like, 7. Right after my father left." (from Crashdown)

If she was 7ish then he would have left around 1989 and 1990 right? right around when kyles mom left...Ooops! You're right. I bet Zero accidentally subtracted 7 from 2000 instead of from 17 to get 10 to subtract from 2000. I'll let her know. Too bad it's not as funny of a booboo as the "astro protection."

WR, the link to the Maxcedo Archives is http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell

Tasyfa, I love it when you share the cloak-n-dagger of posting at work, I'm totally empathetic to the Max. My Network Nazis even log what sites I visit and when! And thanks for the Ron Moore/Deep Space/wormhole, etc. connection. But, ****sigh****, I want to go back to the days when we thought Max was a full-blooded alien who just happened to fall in love with a totally human Liz. I don't mind his saving her causing her to be changed, but, as I've stated on earlier threads and still believe, I think destiny, genetics and engineering just don't make romance--Romance is free-form serendipty.

Does fit in with my prophecy theory, though....that Liz's healing was a Sign that she was "the Chosen One", which was why Tess recognized her, not necissarly that it was actually the healing itself that changed her.

Melodious, Wow, what an involved theory! You really thought that out. Not entirlly convinced that Liz and Max had any connection in the previous life, though.

So here is a continuation of the prophecy theory that I hadn't posted yet because I've been trying to sort it out in my head.
If Liz is the "Chosen One"/"Fifth Element" could it be because she IS the Balance?

Let me start at the beginning. Now I am not a scientist but I seem to remember hearing somewhere that All humans (and probably aliens too) have small genetic defects/mutations. Admittedly most are in the minutest percentage and not enough to effect normal people in any way. Again, I have no clue if this is true or not, but somewhere, somehow, it popped into my head.
Anyway, suppose that Liz, for one reason or another, has absolutely No mutations and in a sense is physically in "Balance". Could this be the reason that she was so readily changed by Max and is destined to be a handler/protector/conduit/key of the Granalith? Would again explain Ava's look, since the Balance seemed to hold an almost religious aspect to the Twilions. It would also explain how Liz intered the circle to heal Michael with out the added assistance of water and stones that the others used.
Actually we could take it a step beyond that and say that the Human race for some reason is physically more "balanced" than most other races in the universe. Thus it would make since that the Twilions would send the Granilith and the podsters to Earth in the hopes that the podsters would find the "Chosen One".

Also something else I noticed. If for a second you forget about Ava's comment, you'll realize that we where never really given any evidence that it was Max who was the one who changed Liz. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the first time we see any sign of Liz's powers is when she gets the flashes in SH, which lead to the discovery of an orb. If, as many people believe, the orb is connected to the Granalith, then it COULD be the Granalith that is facilitating the changes in Liz, NOT Max. Not to say I'm not a total Dreamer!

So to put all of this together.

Back on Twilo there was an ancient prophecy about a "Chosen One" who as the embodiment of the "Balance" and would become the keeper/key to the Granalith. This "Chosen One" would be known by certain signs, including that she would be brought back from death by a lost Twilion King. The Twillian people send the podsters to Earth, populated by Humans who are perticularly in "Balance", in the hopes that they would find the "Chosen One" to help in the current fight. The podsters are told about their past lives and "destinies" in case the "Chosen One" isn't found. They couldn't have know (the prophecy didn't say) that the Twillion King and the "Chosen One" would be connected as they are. So to them, the roles of Tess as Bride, etc. is simply a continuation of the "plan". They probably didn't even think they would really find the "Chosen One" anyway. Or perhaps they programmed Max/Zan to look for possible candidates for the "Chosen One" status, hence the recognition when Max first gets of the school bus in the 3rd grade. Anyway, because of misinterpritations of the prophecy, Ava believes or is told that it is Max's healing that causes Liz to change, even though it is actually the Granalith that is "reaching out" to find it's rightful caretaker during her unguirded moments (i.e. her and Max making out). Perhaps the Granalith is also connected to Max and that is how it is getting "in touch" with Liz.

Weew! that's more than I meant to write. Hope I made sense.

RW

Hi Steph!

clipped from the space.com--- does anyone know what questions the "dupes" answered? (no infrigment intended, used to for the academic discussion of Roswell)

RDM: The Dupes episode answered a lot of questions of what the backstory is on the Pod Squad and the Dupes. So that cleared things up quite a bit.

Questions that the dupes answered--
1) the "other" four
2) gave some political info on V
3) found out Max had a stencil on his mind
4) Liz was changed

But I would rather have had this questions unresolved, in light of the new questions that dupes raise.

If Liz is the granolith keeper, then the journey would seem to me to start back in 1947. We know that Peter Parker had a bar in Roswell at this time. We know that a space ship crashed near Roswell too. This to me screams for a connection.

Again, feel free to disagree with me.

Regardless of who or what created the monoliths, they seem to have incredible abilities. In the first part of 2001, the monkey-men all approach the monolith which has appeared on their land and touch it and rub its sides. Later, after he looks up at the monolith, one of the monkey-men looks down and realizes that the bone he is holding can be used as a tool. That one moment apparently changes his entire society,...

[/B][/QUOTE]

perfectly fine to disagree! In fact, I quite understand the sentiment. I have a similar reason for not likeing the theories about Max and Liz being together because they where in another life.

Anyway, my main point was that Liz somehow seems to have a special connection to the balance, most notebly in the healing of Michael. I'm just trying to think up ways that this could be possible and the way that things are going, not much would suprise me. Doesn't mean though that Max and Liz don't have a very special connection beyond everything else.

RW

One more observation: We learn in HW that Sheriff Valenti arrested Amy D for protesting the destruction of a 200-year-old NA piece of architecture. He says that they were breaking the law by stopping it. Later, he arrests Liz & Alex also for "breaking the law" by being at the soap factory. But he really arrested them to try to get info on Max. I am wondering if the NA site had anything to do with his father and Hubble AND (unbeknownst to the Sheriff but sensed) The Granolith!

DeeDee

DeeDee

I don't think this matters, as it was a summit for the leaders of the planets (they didn't want to meet with just any of the Royals, they wanted to meet with the King, so the others are a moot point for now) ... but if in the future they want to validify Tess by checking for a branded mark, then they should start checking for other branding marks on Lonnie/Isabel and Rath/Michael too.

So unless Liz has part of Max's soul, she wouldn't have the royal seal.

1. Monolith: Thank you for the info. I always thought of it as having been sent by God in order to advance or push the beings/things that needed to move a step forward in order to fulfill their reason for being. The monkey standing up, reaching for the bone and "realizing" he had an advantage, must have been the beginning of intelligence as we know it. Jupiter becoming a star in order to give heat and light, and therefore life, to Europa, Calisto, Ganymede, Io, the other places in our Solar System that can sustain life, was the next step in fulfilling Her wishes and master plan for this sector of the Universe! (I have it in good authority that She likes us, She really likes us ).

So.. if the Granolith is our or Twilonians "monolith", it makes sense that it has a Guardian and a Key to protect it and work it. I had thought that if Liz visits it now, that it would start humming, lighting up, whatever. I have changed my opinion since then. She has to develop more powers before it is ready to recognize her. But it's more than that. I now think that it will recognize her when she has fulfilled her destiny: Cementing with Max. As we heard from Future Max, it seems that Twilonians really "cement" (as in pulverized stone becoming hard as rock, unmovable), with each other once they do the deed! No possibility of betrayal for our Max! (I knew I loved that boy! - Some Earthlings should learn from them, shouldn't they?). Only then will they be able to go forward. I don't think she has to remain a virgin in order to accomplish what she must. And QFanny, I agree with you: they'll do things right, so don't worry about it!

2. Liz was changed, yes, but everytime she has anything to do with an alien, she gets a bit more of CadmiumX (if that is what makes them change), so.. every kiss, every hug, every "cementing" will augment her potential for more powers. Kyle had one connection with an alien. It wasn't at the level that Max had with Liz so his change is not that strong, that life-changing. He may improve if he connects with Tess, but it's not 1/100th of what Liz's is at present. Yes, Maria and Alex have been changed too, but in infinitesimal parts of what Liz has!

Dayneen: You'll be happy to know Ron Moore has confirmed that they are going back to the core of what Roswell is: the Max/Liz relationship! Isn't that great?

Kristine888: Zan had the Granolith in Twilo 50 years ago! As we have learned, we are in real time with them so... it couldn't have been here before. They've had it all along, except for these past 50 years, when it's been guarding the podsters!

Roswelldiva: Sorry I didn't say this before, but thank you very much!

WR

*********************************************
I totally agree WR!!! In MITC all Tess could say was "whatever decision you make will be the right one." She always backs him, no matter what, that's hardly challenging. And hardly the type of person you want behind you as king. Max needs someone who will help him see all angles, not just agree with whatever he says. The only time she does go against him is when he's wanted to be with Liz. Ummm I wonder why?!!

AvaSpeaks, I know why I haven't bothered to visit that particular thread. Tess may be important, but not for that reason. As others have pointed out, she does not challenge Max and just goes along with whatever he says. Perhaps that's where they went wrong in the past, without someone to question his decisions, Zan made big mistakes whilst Tess was there just blindly supporting him.

If Liz is the granolith keeper, then the journey would seem to me to start back in 1947. We know that Peter Parker had a bar in Roswell at this time. We know that a space ship crashed near Roswell too. This to me screams for a connection.

Again, feel free to disagree with me.

[/B][/QUOTE]
*****************************************

Thanks Qfanny!!
I just feel there is more to Tess than just being here to produce an heir and help fight off the enemies. But your theory makes sense though, when I look at how all the people from the podsters past have treated her. She's been barely given any type of important recognition. The mommogram named her as the "young bride" and that was it. The skins once again recognized her as the "young bride," and at the summit Lonnie and Rath didn't refer to her as anything, Larek only said he was at their wedding (once again, the bride thing) and Nicholas refered to her as the genocidial girlfriend. Ummm, maybe she is just here to produce an heir, maybe that's why she's so determined to "cement" she and Max's relationship. She thinks that's what her ultimate destiny is.

Even though the writer's have pretty much abandoned the Native American's connection to the aliens I still feel it's there. Many do speculate that the Granolith might've arrived here before the podsters and that earth was chosen because of previous visits, which would explain the drawings in Peru and maybe even Liz's connection to Max. I'm sure this mystery of the Peru, crop circles etc., will be addressed again, maybe next season, or the next.

Also,
In MITC someone said that the war had been going on for 50yrs, did they mean Earth years or Alien years? If they meant Earth years that would mean the war started in 1950. But if they meant alien years (One Alien year = 3 human years -Liz's speculation in Morning After, don't know if there's anything to it) then, if my math is correct, hope it's not fuzzy then the podsters left Twilo in 1944(Twilo time)and arrived on Earth in 1947 (depending if it only took them a few months to get here). Then this means the war started in 1947 (Twilo time- 1950 Earth time. Meaning the war started on Twilo the same year the skins arrived here on Earth. I don't know where I'm going with all this, I almost doesn't make sense, just want to throw it out there.

BLUECORNMOON: I love the sci-fi, but it will be great for it to tie in more with Max and Liz!!

DeeDeeMy first thought on your post was to dismiss the idea that anyone but the king had anything stenciled on his or her brain. But, Behring in mind what Pierce said in WR about their powers residing in their human brains, I wouldn't discount the possibility that Liz now has a stencil of sorts--not real likely, but possible.

Re the Tess/Bride discussion: It again gives me images of the King in Chess and the Queen: Tess is the Queen who uses her power to protect the King. The granolith, though, could be the King or the Castle. If Max is the King of this Roswellian game of Chess, then the game is a playing out of politics, but Liz is the hand that moves the King and those around him. Hasn't Liz already 'caused' Tess to use her powers to aid the King?

First of all, WELCOME!!!! We always love to have new people who will help us dissect every episode and who can provide new insight, which you have certainly done. I am not aware of anyone ever stating your theory before, but I certainly like it. Any idea that revolves around Liz is bound to receive a warm welcome here.

Also, this thread was on the second page, and I just find that unacceptable

New posters - I know sometimes it may SEEM that we discuss spoilers because so many of our theories have been proven TRUE!!!!!!!!
BUT - its not that we are spoiled here - its just that we are brilliant <vbg> :-) :-) LOL!!!
So speculate away - but remember - no spoilers please!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

********************************************
and Starbox replied
Reggie -

First - we have only suspicious sources claiming that Max married Tess (Tess herself, the skins, Harding). The mom-o-gram and Larek NEVER say WHO the bride is. Our Max - who has his INTUITION and is told again and again by trustworthy sources that the key is to FOLLOW HIS HEART has absolutely NO feelings for Tess. Even after KISSING her - he only feels deeply disturbed and even frightened. Even after Liz tells him she is backing out of his life, even after she seemingly betrays him with Kyle - he still does not have the desire to act on a relationship with Tess. Now whatever Tess may be or may not be - she does have certian feminine "assets" that she prominently displays that should be enough to tempt any teenage male to do a little "lamp trimming" - especially if he has ANY repressed/hidden/past life SHADOWS of memories of actually loving (or at least "cementing") with her. Why on earth wouldn't Max be acting on his "instinct" if she truly was or ever had been his mate????

Also - I serously doubt that Twilo wedding vows mirror our American version :-) - and even so - I find the notion that any person has any "CLAIM" on another person to be extremely distasteful and downright frightening. People are not property to be owned, marked or claimed. Relationships should be based on mutual feelings/respect/love/sacrifice. In fact - true love is exemplified in sacrifce - not in "LAYING CLAIM". Think of the wisdom of Solomon who was able to deduce the baby's true mother by the women who was willing to give up the child out of love - not the woman who was demanding that she had a RIGHT to the child. If you were to tell Max that Tess had some sort of "CLAIM" on him based on something that may or may not have happened to one half of his current "essence" in a past life - I think he would find that notion immensely distateful.

Loving someone through lifetimes is romantic - trying to manipulate and OWN them is not. Saying "to HELL with him if I cant have it MY way" is not romantic. Planting fake images in someones mind to try to make them desire you is not romantic. Romantic is being willing to give up everything for another person, it is being willing to sacrifice evrything, being willing to make yourself vunerable, it is mutual attraction that is based on a deep soul connection - not just a physical connection, it is friendship that blossoms into love.

Everything that Liz did TO current Max - she did FOR Max. As she was in the bed with Kyle - Max was only a whisper away. Her act of betrayal was, in fact, the ultimate act of fidelity.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

BTW - What happened to Max and Isabel's father?

***

Wow- what a long post, with a lot of thought behind it. I hope my reply will be adequate! Let me try to answer your points in order.

First, Max and Tess's marriage. Mom sent King Max, his sister, second in command, and "bride". Four people; and there are four podsters (in each set). We agree that Isabel is the "sister", and Michael the "second in command". How is it that you choke on the fourth podster being the fourth person?
OK, Max doesn't connect with Tess as he did with Liz. How could he? He was in love with Liz, and Max is a one-woman man. (Or, at least, one at a time.) The erotic fantasies which Tess was sending Max would have surely interested him, had he been free. As it was, he was not free, and so they were a disturbing distraction. When Tess was told (by Liz) to cut it out, she did. After that, she took a more intellectual approach to Max and the others; the book, the symbols, etc.
After Liz left Max, could Tess have moved in on him? No; because Max still loved Liz. His efforts (until EOTW) were to get her back, not to replace her. His growing depression would have suppressed his libido, as his obsession with Liz would have supressed his interest in anyone else.

You're right, we don't know much about the Twilonian marriage of Max and Tess. Since the ceremony was termed a "marriage", it's probably like ours in some respects: both parties commit themselves to the relationship. What, after all, is marriage without commitment?
With commitment comes responsibility. If I commit to look after your dog while you are away, I am taking on the responsibility of caring for him, right? And you would be counting on me to keep my promise. Wouldn't you have a claim on me, to look after your dog? If a husband has promised to support his wife, she has a claim on him for that support. If that support is affection, then she has a claim on his affection. Note that the husband has given his wife this claim on his affection freely; she could not "lay claim" to his affection. If you want, you could call it a sacrifice by him to her; although if you love your wife, loving her isn't much of a sacrifice.
My point? When King Max married Tess, he surely committed himself to loving her. Expecting him to make his promise good, she has a claim on that love which he has promised her. For that matter, he has the same claim on Tess; and, as he's just noticing, she is keeping her promise.

"Manipulate" him? "Own" him? No, not really. Tess has tried both to re-awaken in Max the beloved husband she had, and to teach Max about the "Destiny" plan and his role. When she fails, she is willing to pack it in, and leave her fellow aliens. They clearly don't accept her. They ignore The Plan, at their peril. (K' var is not going to leave them alone.) She is frustrated, and annoyed. The discussions with Kyle show this clearly: she's not so much interested in Kyle, as in herself finally rebelling against the Destiny plan. She could be enjoying her own new life, but has set it aside to be faithful to an unresponsive Max, and a Plan that doesn't hold much for her. It's not "her way", as you say, but The <expletive deleted> Plan. She alone has been carrying this burden, and she's "Royally" PO'ed. She's only human...

How do you explain that Zan (with no Liz and therefore no "roadblock" to Ava) would have never loved her and had been "waiting" for "someone".

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

This would also explain why Ava and Tess are treated with no respect. The second wife would always be a "young bride", relative to the original. The original would always be thought of as The Queen, King Zan's great love. Number Two would always be second. The marriage would not be arranged, quite; but if the King is supposed to have a wife (and heir, notice no reference to Max's kids) then he may have selected a person who resembled his Queen, who loved him, and who he liked and might grow to love.

Anyways Zan (is) the duplicate (w/o the royal seal) of Max/Zan. Apparently the guy through Ava eyes and feelings was missing/searching/lack thereof - someone esle to come into his life to make it whole. I guess someone like Liz.

HMMMMMMMMMMM - Max found Liz, the importance of Liz to the Alien Mythology continues.

DeeDee

This would also explain why Ava and Tess are treated with no respect. The second wife would always be a "young bride", relative to the original. The original would always be thought of as The Queen, King Zan's great love. Number Two would always be second. The marriage would not be arranged, quite; but if the King is supposed to have a wife (and heir, notice no reference to Max's kids) then he may have selected a person who resembled his Queen, who loved him, and who he liked and might grow to love.[/B]

Reggie -
I suppose we are coming from diametrically opposed viewpoints when we approach this subject. I really feel that the writers of Roswell have gone to great lengths to lend a "sacredness" (even "holiness") to the Liz/Max union. To say that either of them had been in love with another - even in a past life - in my opinion - tarnishes that "sacred romance". I believe there is something about the Liz/Max connection that runs very deep.

While your suggestion that Liz may have been the "beloved first wife" may work - I personally hope that the writers keep the Max/Liz union a unique one - and one that transcends "earthly" soap opera. It bothers me to think of MY husband remarrying if I died - somehow it would seem that his love for me was not "true" enough. So - it is my hope that Max would be faithful to his "true love" even beyond death. <sigh>

To play devils advocate - assuming you are corect and Max and Tess truly were married on Twilo, you wrote:
*********************************************
If a husband has promised to support his wife, she has a claim on him for that support. If that support is affection, then she has a claim on his affection. Note that the husband has given his wife this claim on his affection freely; she could not "lay claim" to his affection. If you want, you could call it a sacrifice by him to her; although if you love your wife, loving her isn't much of a sacrifice.
My point? When King Max married Tess, he surely committed himself to loving her. Expecting him to make his promise good, she has a claim on that love which he has promised her.
*********************************************

Actually - in the vast majority of cultures and for the vast amount of history "marriage contracts" have had absolutely NOTHING to do with love. In fact - throughout time - and especially in monarchies - marriage did not even guaruntee or suppose that sexual relations would take place - it was about a political union between two countries. This is why many kings have had many, many wives - not all of whom ever even had "marital relations" with the king. I have a feeling that if you looked at all the kings who had actually married for love - or felt that they had a responsibility to "learn to love" or even "act with affection" to their wives - you would find it an extremely small number. Most men throughout the world and throughout time marry for political/social reasons, or marry to produce an heir. Men in other cultures and in past eras have not traditionally looked to their wives for companionship, romance, friendship, or even recreational sex. Look at Victorian times - every "well-bred" man used prostitutes for recreational sex. Look at geishas, courteseans, etc - marriage has typically not been at all about love,sex, and friendship - men have met those needs in other types of women. Even in "modern" times - as we can see by the monarchs of the past century - many STILL do not treat their wives as anything more than a political accessory - wives of kings have no assumptions that they can claim anything other than power from their union with a monarch. Love, affection, even sex (after - of course - the heir and a spare have been produced) - these things just dont come with a crown on Earth - why would we think they come on Twilo.
I know, I know - Tess says she "remembers" being loved by King Zan. But Zan did not remember, and Max doesnt remember - and Max and Zan have never lied while Tess has been caught in alot of lies. Even her claim that "she remembers being loved" seems contradictory when she has said she doesnt "know or care anything about emotions".

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I've been thinking about that too. Remember that Rath seemed surprised that Max actually passed the test? He didn't want to believe Nicholas that the dupes were the rejects, but it seems that Max passing the test confirmed that. However, if the Twilonians carefully made up two batches just in case, I think it's likely that Zan's brain would have been stencilled as well.

RW I believe I mentioned that I wasn't too positive re: how Ben was identified as the Emissary in DS9 However, the important part of the question was whether the quality of "Emissary-ness" was activated, or was always present. The background re: Ben's parents--which IS accurate, I remember that part very well (GREAT epps)--seems to indicate that Ben always possessed the quality of "Emissary-ness." It wasn't recognized till later in his life, but it was a quality he possessed since conception. This is, I believe, in direct contrast to Liz. While she may have held her powers since conception as well, she required activation of them by Max's healing.

bluecornmoon Norah, I think you are absolutely right re: Liz & Max cementing (see? We do agree every now & again! ). I think the term "cemented" was chosen very carefully by the writers, specifically JK, sice he penned EOTW. As I said before, I think that Liz's powers need to develop to a certain level while she remains a virgin, then won't be able to develop any further until she & Max cement. At which point, sex will enhance her powers. But you explained it so much better than I did--that's what I get for frantically typing my theories at work

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

[/B]

In MITC Tess tells Max "You must have been a great husband." She says "you must have been" instead of "you were" implying that she doesn't remember what he was like as her husband.

Norma Bates you naughty girl--as Star_box said, no spoilers allowed! However, I must admit I found your hints very intriguing. Thank you for the extensive detail on lifebonds. I believe that this concept is crucial to explaining the connection between Max & Liz. In one of the Valdemar novels by Mercedes Lackey, Talia lifebonds with Dirk the very first time she lays eyes on him--much like Max did with Liz. And during the ensuing events, when the two of them are still refusing to acknowledge the lifebond, it is tearing them both up because they want to be together--need to be together--so badly, but the misunderstandings keep getting in the way. Their story has a happy ending; I can only pray that Max & Liz's does, too

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Yes, mine too. And, beyond death, the two recognise each other again. One was shipped there by "Mom", the other must have found her way by herself.

And if your husband was King, and the country needed an heir, it would be his patriotic duty to remarry. I hope you would be patriotic enough to go along, esp. since you'd (ahem) have no further use for him. As you said, it's not necessarily a matter of love. For both their sakes, though, I would hope that she would love him, and he her.

[b]Norma Bates you naughty girl--as Star_box said, no spoilers allowed! However, I must admit I found your hints very intriguing. Thank you for the extensive detail on lifebonds. I believe that this concept is crucial to explaining the connection between Max & Liz. In one of the Valdemar novels by Mercedes Lackey, Talia lifebonds with Dirk the very first time she lays eyes on him--much like Max did with Liz. And during the ensuing events, when the two of them are still refusing to acknowledge the lifebond, it is tearing them both up because they want to be together--need to be together--so badly, but the misunderstandings keep getting in the way. Their story has a happy ending; I can only pray that Max & Liz's does, too

[/B]

I agree!! Norma - when you edited your post you took out the great stuff about lifebonds/soulmates. Maybe you could repost it - just without the spoiler reference?????
I thought it was EXCELLENT and definately fits in with many of the Liz theories. I totally agree that the Liz/Max union is not only the basis and foundation of Roswell (as both Ron Moore and JK have said in interviews) but is a VERY unique and sacred bond. I loved the idea of "life-mates".
:-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I just rewatched Blind Date (get a life here? Depressed? Escaping? Naahhh). A couple of things that can now be resolved: The images when they kiss would be Max's that Liz sees. The stars are the imprint on his brain Isn't that cool? When he told Kyle that they 'saw into each others' souls,' he could have said 'we read each other's inner-most thoughts.'

Also, it is definitely Doug Shellow's silhouette walking off after waving his hand over the burn place: When Max says, "you'd look better as a blond," and raises his finger to DBoy's hair, Doug stops him like he knows Max could do it. So he probably intended to kiss her enough to 'see her inner most thoughts' and maybe to see if she now has Max's star imprint (! !), but doesn't get the chance til his 'most important role' as Maxcedo.

And if your husband was King, and the country needed an heir, it would be his patriotic duty to remarry. I hope you would be patriotic enough to go along, esp. since you'd (ahem) have no further use for him.[/B][/QUOTE]

Darn that patriotism!
Oh - but couldnt they just ENGINEER an heir -
hatch a little pod baby or something?? Take MY essence and duplicate it and mix it with the king make an heir that way????? Pleeeeeeaaaasssssseeeeeeee. Come on - give me a little hope to cling to here :-)

Actually - I have been playing with the notion of a Romeo and Juliet scenario.
Remember in the play, Romeo and Juliet marry in secret and he gets banished - then Juliet is forced by her parents to marry Paris.
Rather than betray Romeo - she fakes her own death and sends word to him to come and "rescue" her. But he never gets her letter and tragedy ensues. In the tomb he runs into paris - who is grieving Juliet THINKING THAT HE LOVED HER AND SHE LOVED HIM. Romeo ends up killing Paris before he kills himself.

What if Liz's soul- was "banished" (either of her own free will or by force) to earth (with the granolith). Her marriage to Zan was a secret. Zan was then betrothed to Ava but something happened and tragedy ensued. Tess would be the "Paris" figure - basically clueless that Zan already had a wife. When Larek said he was at Zan's wedding - what if Larek was playing the part of Friar Lawrence on Twilo - he may have been the only witness to Zan's "true" marriage (notice that he never aknowledges Tess's presence).

Maybe THIS is why "LIZ" (or her "people") hid the granolith near Max. It does seem that "mom" didnt know the granolith was there - and it does seem that the granolith did not "belong" to the Twilonians. I dont know - thats all major speculation and I dont like to dabble in speculation much - I prefer to simply try to analyze the things that have already happened. But - it kind of fits with what you are saying (kind of).

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

I just rewatched Blind Date (get a life here? Depressed? Escaping? Naahhh). A couple of things that can now be resolved: The images when they kiss would be Max's that Liz sees. The stars are the imprint on his brain Isn't that cool? When he told Kyle that they 'saw into each others' souls,' he could have said 'we read each other's inner-most thoughts.'

Also, it is definitely Doug Shellow's silhouette walking off after waving his hand over the burn place: When Max says, "you'd look better as a blond," and raises his finger to DBoy's hair, Doug stops him like he knows Max could do it. So he probably intended to kiss her enough to 'see her inner most thoughts' and maybe to see if she now has Max's star imprint (! !), but doesn't get the chance til his 'most important role' as Maxcedo.

[/B]
********************************************
That is REALLY cool Shapeshifter! WOW! I wish I had season one tapes!!! Now I want to rewatch Blind Date!!!
SO if Doug was Nasedo - where was Tess? She says in WR that Nasedo "never left her before".

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

TTFN

4everyoung

It was you.............Max

And speaking of protectors, if the late Nasedo was the Roswell Royal Four's protector, how come he found Tess, but wasn't able to find Max, Isabel, and Michael? Wouldn't he have hidden the pods in the first place? Three children found wandering in the desert would be big news in the small town of Roswell.

I smell a conspiracy...

TTFN

Just wanted to say that I love Tigger (as you can see by my avatar).

StarBox- very interesting theory relating Max/Liz to Romeo/Juliet. Obviously, the writers (or Jason Katims at least) definitely want us to see comparisons between the two couples. Liz specifically makes reference to this in TEOTW. I think there are many similiarities between the two couples and your theory is certainly a possibility.

That's too funny! This post has no light to shed--I just wanted to congratulate myself on achieving another !

Oh, and HHF I'm not ignoring you--I'm sorely tempted to PM you and ask, but so far I'm resisting all spoilage. If I change my mind I'll PM you, but I wanted to tell you thanks for the offer

Pam
Dreamer*Mythologist*Behrian*Applesaucer*CANADIAN

vicous~critter

The name Elizabeth means 'consecrated to God'. In addition, if you were to look up the meaning of the name Isabel, you would find this meaning 'spanish for Elizabeth, consecrated to God.'

I don't know what you all make of it, but I can't stop thinking about the fact that the two females closest to Max have, for all intents and purposes, identical names.

Well ... there you go. My little contribution to the 'Liz's importance to the alien mythology' thread.

Demoira

I don't know what you all make of it, but I can't stop thinking about the fact that the two females closest to Max have, for all intents and purposes, identical names.

I find that highly interesting...and suspicious. Could Liz be Isabel's better half? Or a mirror of her? What an awesome theory! I like it. But something about it bothers me. Is Liz not as special then? Is her connection with Max no longer a soulmate thing, but a sisterly thing? There must be more to it than that.

It's early, I'm having problems forming thoughts!

Anne

Shapeshifter - INTERESTING :-)
I really like the idea of Larek being a "Friar Lawrence" character. One thing that has been bothering me about Roswell is that the kids dont have a Friar Lawrence! They NEED someone who is "in on things (as in Twilo things)" to help them out.

I dont think I ever posted my Sheila Hubble theory.
First I have to say that I believe that when Liz or Max has a flash that the flash is not "random" - I think that they connect with something that is meaningful THEM. (Hence my belief that Max saw young Liz playing Bride)

Okay - I think that Sheila Hubble was Zan's "Liz". She was "born" too early - at the time of the crash - maybe in the leaky pod?
The dates actually work - if she was born in 47 she would have been 22 or 23 (depending on what month her birthday was) when she was killed. It would also explain why Zan's "Liz" never showed up - and why Liz flashed on Sheila Hubble dead (she was connected to Sheila)

Anyway - just a theory.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

shapeshifter: Are we talking about Doug Shellow again? Next thing you know will be hashing out the Harding/Nasedo-Pierce-Topolosky triple agent scenerio. I don't think my head can take that.

I want to believe the Liz is 100% human, without any specialness to her other than Max loves her, and she loves him. If everyone takes 2 steps back and looks at the bigger picture (and ignores Liz's powers), I think that this is still possible.

Norma: Please repost the soulmates/lifebounds stuff. I think you were on to something.

I actually think that what works the best with what has been written so far is the idea that Tess and the royals were killed on their wedding day. I think that the writers used the term "bride" (instead of wife or queen) assuming that we would understand that "bride" meant "one about to be married" and that Ava and Zan were killed before she could become the wife or queen.
There is some behind-the-scenes support for an intentional use of the term "bride" as well. I really, really think JK assumed that we would realise that a bride and a wife are not the same thing :-)

IF that is the case (and since the word BRIDE and GIRLFRIEND have been used to describe Tess - but never the words QUEEN or Wife - I would assume that it is accurate) then any number of Romeo and Juliet-type scenarios could come into play - with Liz's "essence" somehow being the "secret" wife - sent to earth to hide her until she could be reunited with Zan.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

So, now (with gloves off, please ) let's re-examine Reggie's excellent analysis of Tess's view of the situation: quote:originally posted by ReggieTess has tried both to re-awaken in Max the beloved husband she had, and to teach Max about the "Destiny" plan and his role. When she fails, she is willing to pack it in, and leave her fellow aliens. They clearly don't accept her. They ignore The Plan, at their peril. (K' var is not going to leave them alone.) She is frustrated, and annoyed. The discussions with Kyle show this clearly: she's not so much interested in Kyle, as in herself finally rebelling against the Destiny plan. She could be enjoying her own new life, but has set it aside to be faithful to an unresponsive Max, and a Plan that doesn't hold much for her. It's not "her way", as you say, but The <expletive deleted> Plan. She alone has been carrying this burden, and she's "Royally" PO'ed. She's only human...

AND, recalling the Rath comment on 'alien sex...accept no substitutes' (don't worry Qf, I wont bring up Dog Boy ), we have lots of evidence to support the idea that Max mating with Changed Liz is No Substitute. So Then, ahem, Kyle should really accept no substitutes either. Tess? Are you reading this? Nice boxers, right?

My daughter says that logically if they sent equal numbers of males and females that they were intended to mate. But Max has stated that he is not going to let some book tell him what to do, and Michael has said he 'doesn't buy that.' Having more or less survived being a teenager in the late sixties, I don't see the young folks wanting to follow Mom's agenda. I mean, if Kyle actually falls in love with Tess, she's bound to appreciate it.

You know - I really ought to pass on some of the fun non-spoiler behind the scenes info that gets posted on the spoiler boards to you all. Maybe I can ask the 'insiders" if I can put it all up on a website so that people who dont want the spoliage can still get the fun "extras".

Here a couple of neat things from Magic -
1) In the last scene of WipeOut, they used Jason's pet dog.
2) In MTD JB told them it would be better if they said the knife had been a birthday gift (they should have listened to him :-)

And Reggie - my apologies if I sounded snarky at any point. I may be just a weeeeeeee bit PMS-y these days so just throw a bar of chocoalte my way and tell me to shut up :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

QFANNY-I know you are clinging to the idea that Liz is the smallest of small town girls who Max just happened to fall in love with but how often do you know that a SIX YEAR OLD gets off the school bus for KINDERGARTEN and does a DOUBLETAKE on a girl he continues to just crush over----pretty young for a crush--how do you IGNORE the RECOGNITION factor that seems evident in a scene that the writers thought was so important we have seen this scene over and over again? I think that the fact that Liz calls herself the smallest of smalltown girls is because she is unaware of her own HISTORY---how ironic---I believe Nemo points out in 285South, how Liz mentions how scary it would be to have someoneelse discover their(meaning the aliens) history before they do,(she may be unaware but she could also be talking about herself--ya see) She also says to Isabel later, well at least my MOM knows what SPECIES I am-----YES LIZ but do YOU?????LOL!!!! Like I have said b4 I do believe that LIZ is HUMAN now but was she intended to be, or was she hidden in humaness on purpose? These are the questions I would like answered. But QFANNY the recognition thing, I never hear you address this?

THOSE NAGGING LITTLE CLICKING NOISES---WHAT DO THEY MEAN?

Starbox, loved the behind-the-scenes stuff. Just slip them in whenever they fit. And I know we can trust you on not dropping spoilers. OT: my daughter wants to know if "Starbox" is supposed to be a homonym for "Starbucks."

LOL! Actually "StarBox" is an homage to my very favorite movie as a very young child in the early 70's. It was also about some stranded alien kids who were trying to find out who they were and how to get home.
"Escape to Witch Mountain" :-) The little girl "Tia" had a starbox that held a hidden map.

GraceKel - funny you should ask about the MITC symbols - I asked the screencap guru on theDDD make me some caps of both symbols - I am going to post them later. Today is a housework day - so each time I finish a job I reward myself with computer time :-) :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I shall believe!
Jane*Evans (I wish!)

I shall believe!
Jane*Evans (I wish!)

I dont think I ever posted my Sheila Hubble theory.
First I have to say that I believe that when Liz or Max has a flash that the flash is not "random" - I think that they connect with something that is meaningful THEM. (Hence my belief that Max saw young Liz playing Bride)

Okay - I think that Sheila Hubble was Zan's "Liz". She was "born" too early - at the time of the crash - maybe in the leaky pod?
The dates actually work - if she was born in 47 she would have been 22 or 23 (depending on what month her birthday was) when she was killed. It would also explain why Zan's "Liz" never showed up - and why Liz flashed on Sheila Hubble dead (she was connected to Sheila)

Humph. What would they do with another "someone who is in on things"? Like Harding was. Like Courtney was. Like Tess might be. Like the dupes were. What would they do with today's issue of The Twilo Times?
Probably wrap a fish in it.

I would think that Zan's Liz would be the same age as he and Max are. BTW, here's a picture of "Dupe Liz":

Notice the hairdo, like the "Bride of Frankenstein". Since Max/Zan contain parts of dead people, I think it's significant. :real serious look:

(With apologies to any cast members lurking...)

Ah Reggie - notice I said a FRIAR LAWRENCE character to help them (Max and Liz) out (as FL helped R&J) So far all of the people "in on things" have been working towards their own agendas - we have yet to see someone on Max and Liz's side.
Harding wanted to seprate Max and Liz, Tess wants to seperate Max and Liz (so if Liz truly has releveance to the alien mythology - thos two are not helping anyone but themselves out). If anything Tess and Harding would be The Capulets and Paris - working blindly against the lovers. (hey - see how far I have come - I am willing to concede to the POSSIBILITY that Tess and Harding are acting out of ignorance rather than malice) Courtney wanted Michael to betray Max - so I dont think she was going to be a Friar Lawrence either.

Ava had/has potential - so does Larek. Here is hoping one or both of them are on Max's side of the Twilo conflict. Max need's a mentor - an Obi-Wan Kenobi if you will.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

GraceKel-- What happened to your stars? I see you are a fan in training, what a laugh-- We should make you honorary moderater!

But you are right, I do not answer this question because frankly, I do not have an answer for this. The fact the Max gets off the bus and sees Liz for the first time-- well the fact that he remembers this very early event should hold the Max thought Liz was special. But why? Who knows why for sure? Could it be that Max just thought Liz was pretty? Or was he jeaulous of the fact that Liz was playing with so many other kids. He and Isabel appeared quite isolated. Was he watching Liz to figure out how to "fake" being human correctly? Max must have known by this time that he and Isabel were special. They had the instinct to hide in plain sight. Maybe the fact that Liz was a popular playmate was aluring to him. That he couldn't get too close to Liz because all eyes were on her.

At any rate-- he did recognize her for what she was: A pretty small town girl. He seemed to understand that she had friends, a lot of friends, where he was alone. In TMA Max told Liz that he wished he didn't have to be so reserved. At the time of the recognition flashback Max could have be wishing he didn't have to play turtle and hide in his shell.

But I have a hard time buying that he saw Liz to be his ex-bride, wife, lover, soulmate, etc.... Surely over the course of 8 years Max would have been able to understand why we was attracted to Liz, if he remembered her as his ex-X. I do not think that Max has any secrets from Liz-- he says as much in Harvest. And in TLV doesn't he say that he knows it was "fate" that brought them together. That sounds pretty third person standoffish to me.

Sorry GraceKel, I don't think I answered your question.

A huge thanks to The DDD (http://www.theDDD.com) who were kind enough to make these custom screencaps for me :-)

If they dont show up - here is the link to each one: http://members.aol.com/lizmythologist/lizpj.jpg http://members.aol.com/lizmythologist/street.jpg

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

QFANNY-I hope you don't think I was attacking you or anything I was just curious as to what your theory on this was about this off the school bus thing---I guess I would like to think of it as both recognition and attraction of some sort but having no conscious memory of anything more, after all, he doesn't remember anything about Planet TWILO either after all these years so why would it be surprising that he didn't remember his bride, he doesn't remember TESS AT ALL EITHER, at least with Liz he is STRANGELY ATTRACTED TO HER from the first time he laid eyes on her.

STARBOX---those are incredible pics how did you get a hold of them LOL now I can go back and look at them on my tape again. So STAR what are you thinking about these CLICKING noises, I swear they are coming from TESS because it seems that Max is cupping Tess's face and as he moves it we hear these clicks as she tries to speak?

STARBOX---those are incredible pics how did you get a hold of them LOL now I can go back and look at them on my tape again. So STAR what are you thinking about these CLICKING noises, I swear they are coming from TESS because it seems that Max is cupping Tess's face and as he moves it we hear these clicks as she tries to speak?[/B]

Hey Grace - did you get my PM a few days ago about the clicking/spoiler speculation/etc???
I am not sure what I think the clicking is.
What do you think???? I definately think the whole Tess snatching and then leaving for max to find is pretty weird.
TheDDD screencap guru made the caps for me :-) (THANK YOU AGAIN!!) I really think that it points to the FIFTH ELEMENT theories & Liz as one of the two of diamonds.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

What do I think it is? Well I sometimes think it sounds somewhat similar to when Isabel struck Nikolas with that pipe and then he seemed to CLICK his NECK back into place hmmmm? BUT I also remember I think it was in FOUR SQUARE when Max was recvg these images, possibly TESSAVISIONS I remember hearing this odd clicking sound then too although I am not sure it was quite the same but similar?

Did anyone else notice when Max and Tess are on the top of the Empire State Building looking out it shows Max and then a telescope and then Tess and then a telescope, I was wondering if there was any symbolism going on there? The way they spaced themselves, Max, his bride?, then Tess(his sister?) and her betrothed? I know it sounds crazy because of the other podsters but I thought it was worth a mention.

It might be a totally wacked out theory (I thought of this at 4am and has been awake for 22 hours already) but I'm going to embarrass myself anyway by sending this.

LIFEBONDS vs. SOULMATES:
Soul mates are usually described as people being very alike in feelings and motivation. They work very well to gather for common goals that are the same. They have a connection of purpose and a similarity in thinking. Their skills compliment each others so that together they accomplish more and are stronger/better than if they worked individually toward the same goal. But soul mates aren’t necessarily a permanent connection and they could be with several people.

Life bonds take "soul mate" one step further. Life bonds are usually found in telepathic sci-fi (Kathy Tyers' "Firebird" for example) and fantasy genres. Before they can be life bonded, they must be soul mates first. They are linked together mentally, emotionally and constantly. Life bonds in fiction are rare and not taken lightly. They are a permanent one on one connection…till death do they part. The creation of a life bond is a matter of choice. It doesn’t just happen. Authors sometimes use the theory that if a pair decides to life bond, they spend some time apart first, to strengthen and stretch the bond, (to change the bond,) and to contemplate on their choice. Both must agree and be fully committed to each other. There is no divorce option except death. Once that is done, the 2 open their connections to each other, mind and soul, to the fullest extent and then “cement” their relationship, making the bond permanent.

The drawbacks to life bonding includes:
1. If they are separated from each other, they feel incomplete, not whole.
2. Long term separation can lead to mental instability or insanity because one balances the other’s strengths and weaknesses emotionally and physically.
3. If one of a bonded pair dies, it can cause a deep depression to the point of suicide. The remaining survivor has trouble adapting and balancing themselves.

Some things that life bonds aren’t:
1. They are not mind reading skills. They send strong impressions or emotions. Right now, if Max and Liz were life bonded, he would know she was lying but not why unless she told him.
2. They are still separate people capable of misunderstandings.
3. Life bonds cause a lot of stress and misunderstanding because they are so close emotionally, they forget to communicate verbally.
4. Having secrets between a life bonded pair causes a lot of frustration and pain between them.

LIFEBONDED TO SOON?
Could what Future Max (FM) is talking about in TEOTW be a hint that, not knowing what they were doing, they became life bonded too soon?

FM: Liz, I am telling you what happened, and we have to change that. We have to. And so far, we've failed. Liz, it's not just Max that's the problem here. You are. You are not letting yourself change. Now you have to do something...before it's too late.

Liz wasn’t going to change or be able to life bond to Max without first making a decision that she wanted to go ahead with the relationship. From Destiny until TEOTW she kept herself apart and tried to withdraw but after seeing Madame Vivian she changed her mind and decided to take a chance…to start changing. Perhaps FM found out that Liz would develop her own powers if they hadn't become life bonded and solidified the links so early. Max coming back and keeping her separated allowed the connections to grow stronger. Liz needed time to stretch the links, to change both physically and mentally and taking Isabel's hand in Max in the City (MITC) was only the first step of finding out whom she really is and what she can do.

DISCLAIMER:
Ok. I’m off my rocker, I’ll admit it. Hopefully I didn’t steal anyone else’s theories. And some are far fetched theories. But what are your opinions. I’d love feedback. Even if it is a “you are so stupid…” I never claimed to be brilliant, only slightly brighter than a broken light bulb.

---Stories from a deranged mind.

CDEDBD ducks?
MR not ducks.
OSAR. CDEDBD wings?
O. MR ducks.
Anony’s moose.

THE MOM-O-GRAM, TESS AND LIZ:
Perhaps Mom (from the Mom-0-Gram) sent Tess and said that she was the bride when she told the other 4 (or more) aliens from the ship and the people that the pods went to earth. Mom might have arranged to send the fixings (not for a pod-birth) for the real bride (Liz) with them but only told one of the shape shifters that she trusted (Nesado not being among the trusted.) Tess would not the bride then, but a stalking horse to protect Liz. Tess doesn't even know, nor did Nesado. Perhaps Tess was a trusted and loyal part of Zan’s Royal Guard (size isn’t everything if she had strong powers to compensate) and volunteered but doesn’t remember. That's why Tess said in MITC: "You must have been a great husband." Tess DOESN'T REMEMBER Max as her husband because he wasn’t her husband.

SHAPESHIFTERS AS GUARDS:
Possibly the shape shifters were sent as guards from sympathizers from the other planets to oversee and to protect the Royal 4 while on earth. The one that did know of the bride switch was entrusted by Mom with the knowledge and was supposed to keep it secret. The FBI claims that there were 4 captured in the crash. There is a theory on an earlier thread that there were more shape shifters than 4. I would guess that there were 5 or 6: 1 from each planet plus Mom’s choice with each of the 5 planetary volunteers assigned to protect 1 of the pods plus 1 one for the second set of pods and Mom’s choice for the bride and possibly seconding for the second set of podsters. (Nesado got Tess.) The FBI claimed to have captured 4. Possibly they killed 2 experimenting on them, kept 1 alive, 1 escaped the FBI (Nesado,) and 1 or 2 escaped completely without the FBI’s knowledge of his/her existence. I believe that one got completely away (Tic Tac or another), had known of the bride switch and managed to save Liz and arranged for her "birth" later while the other aliens led false trails or tried to get the 8 pods to safety. I don’t think Nesado was in on where they were hidden. Perhaps he only found Tess after M/M/I left their pods and didn’t know where they went or what they looked like. They could have put the alien book at the library AFTER they knew what the other podsters looked like and planted it. That could be how Tess knew where it was.

TESS AND THE SHOOTING:
As to the shooting, could the “we’ve got to get rid of her” and the “running out of time” comment really is about Tess? Maybe the shooters needed Max to come in contact and heal Liz to jumpstart the changes. That they either must have seen Tess or knew Nesado was getting closer to finding the Royal 4 and needed to speed up getting Max and Liz together.

Imagine the frustration of Nesado who believes Tess is the bride and has been telling Tess that she is the bride, that she is Max’s destiny and that Max loved her. To his dismay he finds Max and Liz together. And what about the frustration of Tess who believes that Max is her destiny and Max is being difficult. When in actuality the pod squad needs all 5 of them (M/M/I/T/L).

Melodious: I disagree with your theory that was something like this
King(royal-Max)
Young Bride(royal-Liz)
King's Sister(royal-Isabel)
Sister's bethroed(royal-Michael)
2nd in Command(not royal-Tess)

I disagree because Tess has not proved herself as 2nd in command or in command at all. Tess has always presented herself as a follower. Her comments to Max have cemented (hehe) her as that if not her actions. Michael has proved himself as 2nd in command by challenging Max. Isabel and Michael challenge Max as a leader and a King. That is necessary for him to become better, for his closest advisors and friends to show him different view points and ideas. Tess doesn't do that. Now I like Tess, but I don't trust her fully. So please keep that in mind in regards to the rest of my post, and I apolgize ahead of time, cause I know it'll probably be long.

I read the transcript for "Into the Woods" recently cause something had been bothering me. It's about the sighting and the symbol on the ground. Why would the symbol come after a sighting? Doesn't a sighting mean that a ship has been seen? That's what I've always thought, if I'm wrong please let me know. And it just seems weird that Tess and Harding came after that.

Another thing that bugs me about Harding being Nescedo is the fact that if he was so close to Riverdog, then why didn't he ever meantion him (or did I just miss that?) or go to the cave or reservation to see him? Could Harding and Tess come from Twilio in a ship, which was seen at the beginning of ITTW?

I maybe going out on a limb here, and my only hope is that it doesn't break from my weight (sorry, couldn't resist, long weekend in retail will do it to you). I think that Harding isn't Nescedo and that the ss that we call TicTac is Nescedo, he seems to like humans a lot more, which helps to link him to Riverdog, instead of Harding who hates or finds humans lacking.

But I have yet to come to a solid conclusion that I feel comfortable with about Harding and Tess. I think that Tess is important to the aliens, but I don't know how or who she really is. And I just don't trust her, maybe she is real and has been fed false tales and memories or maybe she's fake and trying to break up the royal four, but I'm with QFanny in that I don't want Liz to be an alien, altered or advanced human, yes, but alien and not know it, no. Not unless she was sent later when they were better able to hide her true alien self better than with the royal four, but then comes in the whole, who is the bride thing.

I may write it in fanfics, but in reality? What can I say, I'm a sucker for the couple that the TPTB always play with.

Okay, I'm going to end this now, cause it's really long but maybe somebody got something from this post and will run with it.

Lates!

I Still Believe & I'll Never Forget

I made a change to the timeline concerning Maria's dad's disappearance. Shapeshifter let me know that someone had pointed out that I had subtracted wrong - oops! THANKS! Remember, if you catch something I got wrong, feel free to post it or PM me - I welcome the comments, etc.

I'm off to read a bit before bed - my own bed!! Can hardly wait!

My apologies to anyone whose theory I miss for the next Intro - you all are moving too fast for me!

BTW - Shapeshifter - I watched that "X-files" episode too, and thought it was very interesting how time kept moving backwards so that the main character could get a second chance, but how he had to still answer for the mistakes/deception he had perpetrated that set the original chain of events into effect.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

WELCOME ABOARD!!!
jane*evans- We are also glad to see you posting on this board as well.
It is always great to have more RBIers.
(RBI= Roswell Bureau of Investigation and all of us on this thread are agents, just to let the newbies know).

In regards to the whole "RECOGNIZED Liz as Max got off the bus" thing, remember that the lyrics from Fear that are playing at that EXACT moment are "promises of a LONG LOST FRIEND speak to me of comfort". I think that is a HUGE clue. In fact, I think that all of season 1 (and Ron Moore's brilliant writing of MITC) set up many clues to Liz having been a part of Max's past. Now we will just have to sit back and see if the writers have the uhhh...cajones to follow through with it.

First, Tess/Ava- I don't know enough of the history here, but someone let me know if this could be possible. Tess seems more hardened and untrustworthy than Ava, who seems to truly care and while she is not one for taking action, an overall nicer person. Maybe somehow Ava and Tess were switched? Could Tess be the dupe? I especially wonder a/b this since Ava remembers more of their planet and has accepted Liz as the one for Max.

The "Cementing"- While I haven't decided to side with one of the theories concerning Liz's humaness, I don't think there is any denial that something is indeed happening to her now because of her relationship w/ Max. When FM tells her she can't "cement" her relationship w/ Max yet I believe it is b/c of this stopping her own personal growth. No one can deny that "cementing" changes relationships. Once Liz made the decision to cement, she might decide that her own growth is not as important as their relationship-while in actuality, her growth is esstential to it. The "cementing" will come later, when she is more ready for it.

I do want to acknowledge that the idea of much of this came from readings posted on here. Hope this wasn't tooooo bad. Thankyou!

I was reading the messages since thread #18, and let me tell you I love all your theories....
This is the first time I post a message, I hope I get it right;-)
Can't wait to see ARCC....

It might be a totally wacked out theory (I thought of this at 4am and has been awake for 22 hours already) but I'm going to embarrass myself anyway by sending this.

LIFEBONDS vs. SOULMATES:
Soul mates are usually described as people being very alike in feelings and motivation. They work very well to gather for common goals that are the same. They have a connection of purpose and a similarity in thinking. Their skills compliment each others so that together they accomplish more and are stronger/better than if they worked individually toward the same goal. But soul mates aren’t necessarily a permanent connection and they could be with several people.

Life bonds take "soul mate" one step further. Life bonds are usually found in telepathic sci-fi (Kathy Tyers' "Firebird" for example) and fantasy genres. Before they can be life bonded, they must be soul mates first. They are linked together mentally, emotionally and constantly. Life bonds in fiction are rare and not taken lightly. They are a permanent one on one connection…till death do they part. The creation of a life bond is a matter of choice. It doesn’t just happen. Authors sometimes use the theory that if a pair decides to life bond, they spend some time apart first, to strengthen and stretch the bond, (to change the bond,) and to contemplate on their choice. Both must agree and be fully committed to each other. There is no divorce option except death. Once that is done, the 2 open their connections to each other, mind and soul, to the fullest extent and then “cement” their relationship, making the bond permanent.

The drawbacks to life bonding includes:
1. If they are separated from each other, they feel incomplete, not whole.
2. Long term separation can lead to mental instability or insanity because one balances the other’s strengths and weaknesses emotionally and physically.
3. If one of a bonded pair dies, it can cause a deep depression to the point of suicide. The remaining survivor has trouble adapting and balancing themselves.

Some things that life bonds aren’t:
1. They are not mind reading skills. They send strong impressions or emotions. Right now, if Max and Liz were life bonded, he would know she was lying but not why unless she told him.
2. They are still separate people capable of misunderstandings.
3. Life bonds cause a lot of stress and misunderstanding because they are so close emotionally, they forget to communicate verbally.
4. Having secrets between a life bonded pair causes a lot of frustration and pain between them.

LIFEBONDED TO SOON?
Could what Future Max (FM) is talking about in TEOTW be a hint that, not knowing what they were doing, they became life bonded too soon?

FM: Liz, I am telling you what happened, and we have to change that. We have to. And so far, we've failed. Liz, it's not just Max that's the problem here. You are. You are not letting yourself change. Now you have to do something...before it's too late.

Liz wasn’t going to change or be able to life bond to Max without first making a decision that she wanted to go ahead with the relationship. From Destiny until TEOTW she kept herself apart and tried to withdraw but after seeing Madame Vivian she changed her mind and decided to take a chance…to start changing. Perhaps FM found out that Liz would develop her own powers if they hadn't become life bonded and solidified the links so early. Max coming back and keeping her separated allowed the connections to grow stronger. Liz needed time to stretch the links, to change both physically and mentally and taking Isabel's hand in Max in the City (MITC) was only the first step of finding out whom she really is and what she can do.

DISCLAIMER:
Ok. I’m off my rocker, I’ll admit it. Hopefully I didn’t steal anyone else’s theories. And some are far fetched theories. But what are your opinions. I’d love feedback. Even if it is a “you are so stupid…” I never claimed to be brilliant, only slightly brighter than a broken light bulb.

---Stories from a deranged mind.

CDEDBD ducks?
MR not ducks.
OSAR. CDEDBD wings?
O. MR ducks.
Anony’s moose.

********************************************
Great Post Norma!!!
I definitely think that there's something to your post. There was most certainly something more to FMax's statement to Liz, when he told her that she was not changing. I feel that both she and Max needed to evolve and change, like someone said earlier, Max was way to caught up in Liz in "Ask Not". It was very romantic when he told her he was coming for her and that he didn't care about anything but her. Romantic but dangerous, a statement that if followed through with could get them all killed and ultimately ended up turning into what FMax told Liz in EOTW. Though I hate Max & Liz being seperated, this is helping Liz change the way she needs to and helping Max become stronger as a leader. Once Liz and Max finish complete the "change" they will come together.

And maybe they won't even have to do the entire evolution on their own ,maybe they will get to a certain point in the change (mainly Liz) and then it will be time to "cement" she and Max's relationship spiritually and physically.

CharmedKitten - I agree with all your "questions" about Harding and Tess - and I have also wondered if there is a connection between the "sighting" and their arrival.

GraceKel - interesting about the Nikolas
"head clicking" - hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

About the recognition factor - here is a line from Toy House that always stod out to me:

MAX: I remember my first few nights in our house so well. I hated it so much. For Isabel it was different. She saw you and dad, and from the very first moment, she knew she was home. But I would lie in my bed all night and cry.

I wonder if Max's "attitude" about missing home changed when he saw Liz again?? I have always had a feeling they may expand on that later. Is she his "home"?
Also - consider his line in Pilot that he has thought about tellig her "a thousand times".
I think his "recongition" of her HAS to be attributed to more than him just thinking she was pretty, or popular. Wht else would he have struggled for years about "revealing" himself to her.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

DeeDee

You know something else I noticed in MITC, but kept forgetting to mention? When Rath and Lonnie tell Max and Tess about the test, Tess seems to get scared, and she questions it, then relaxes when Lonnie tells her it's just Max who has to have it.

BTW, hi everyone! Hope everyone had a great weekend and has something distracting to do tonight so you won't be too sad.

I know this thread is about Liz, but I think Alex and Maria are important too. Cause isn't it funny how perfectly they fit with the pod squad.
Max with Liz
Michael with Maria
Isabel with Alex

Do you think Grant is a "puppet" for Khivar? I know Rath said that the others use a human's body. So maybe Khivar is using Grant, or Grant might actually be Khivar. I don't think that Nicholas is Khivar. Nicholas seems like he is going behind Khivar's back some of the times.

In the Pilot episode, when they were doing the whole countdown thing. I could have sworn I saw someone that looked exactly like Sheila Hubble, but then I'm slightly crazy so it probably wasn't her.

GraceKel - funny you should ask about the MITC symbols - I asked the screencap guru on theDDD make me some caps of both symbols - I am going to post them later. Today is a housework day - so each time I finish a job I reward myself with computer time :-) :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

:laugh: I really liked that movie. Back then it was sooooo sci-fi!!

I knew your name sounded familiar!

Norma Bates kool theory about lifemates (?) the show should hire you to work with them! My Dreamer heart gave a flutter when reading it I hope...

Reggie(?) you asked on the first page if I was new here. I'm not as you can probably see my status has been restored. That's when the trouble began for me. That was actually the last post I was able to put up until now when it was fixed. But thanx just the same.

Well I'm off to make up for 4 days of not posting

c u later

I knew your name sounded familiar!

Max notes that Tess has done nothing but support him; what did he do to deserve this? "I think, in that other life, you must have been one great husband."

Tess has been trying (for some time now) to convince Max that he was & should be her husband. She's progressively tried to get his interest with erotic fantasies; with dangling answers to his Identity via symbolism; by frankly showing him the pod chamber (and the Mom-o-gram); and gotten nowhere. There is no Royal road to romance (pun intended).

Now Tess is wooing Max from scratch: being there for him, and supporting him, with no claim on past promises (which Max doesn't remember anyway). When pressed, Tess explains it in the third person: "You must have been", not "You were". "You must have been" draws him to the logical conclusion that he was both her "husband", and that he was "great" at it.

Besides, Tess's memories of Twilo are unclear images, impressions, and feelings; not regular memories. Without her "father", she may be almost as lost as Max; with Max her only real anchor. I think, in this scene, we are really seeing right down to the bottom of Tess's heart: she loves Max.

BTW, this is the first sign of "Cartwright's Disease".

Sunrise--Sheila Hubble was shown in The UFO Convention. Everett Hubble has a flashback of the day she was killed by Nasedo. She had the same straight black hair and brown eyes as Liz.

Sunrise: Just a quick OT note: If you have a fast connection, a copy of Blind Date can be downloaded at http://roswell.dhs.org You'll need DivX to download it and get it too work on Windows Media, but it was well worth the trouble for me! I spent all weekend downloading and watching episodes this weekend....I am such a geek!

Anne

I disagree because Tess has not proved herself as 2nd in command or in command at all. Tess has always presented herself as a follower. Her comments to Max have cemented (hehe) her as that if not her actions.

You’re probably right CharmedKitten, Tess probably isn’t the 2nd-in-Command (admittedly my theory was out there). Tess does often seem to simply go along with whatever Max says (which wouldn’t make for a very good Second). Although the past Royals’ lives did end in death. Perhaps one of the contributing factors of this failed life was the King’s lack of a suitable Second (aka Tess)? A Second that merely went along with everything the King commanded (as opposed to challenging him like Michael)? Of course, then why would the Podians have Tess as his 2nd if she was so terrible at it in the past life?? Although I also question why they'd send the King's sister who seemingly betrayed everyone? I hope we get clarifications to at least some of this stuff in the not to distant future.

quote:I read the transcript for "Into the Woods" recently cause something had been bothering me. It's about the sighting and the symbol on the ground. Why would the symbol come after a sighting? Doesn't a sighting mean that a ship has been seen? That's what I've always thought, if I'm wrong please let me know.

You’re not wrong. I often coincide “sighting” to UFO, but post-MITC, I’m inclined to believe the “sighting” in ITW originated on Earth. Post-MITC Lonnie (yes, should probably be taken with a grain of salt. She could be lying through her teeth, be wrong or purposely misinformed) gave me the impression that anyone from the “home planet” would ONLY come to Earth (seemingly due to the strenuous effort and distance) to “pick up” the Royal Four… and for no other reason. I’m inclined to believe this since these aliens in this far off Royal Galaxy had to find other means (temporarily “possess” the bodies of humans as opposed to the [long?] travel to Earth). Granted, that’s not saying someone from one of the other 4 planets couldn’t have made the symbol. Although I kind of find this unlikely.

Editing this because I remembered something from M2TM which could explain the "sighting" in ITW. More than likely, the symbol was made by Edsedo a similar way he made the symbol here:

I don’t think the Whitaker-Nikolas Skins made the symbol due to the Whitaker Diary (they seemed to be clueless on where the Royals were until Whitaker appeared in Roswell – long after ITW). Although I have to wonder if ALL the Skins were informed when the Nikolas Skins were? Could some (Michael Worshipping) Skins like Courtney have known where the Royals were BEFORE Whitaker and Nik discovered them; these MW-Skins possibly made the ITW symbol?

Something else concerning the ITW sighting which has bothered me is the seeming presence of “dry lightening” just prior the sighting. There could be nothing here, but wasn’t one of the visions Liz saw when she kissed Edsedo (M2TM) was of lightening? Lightening has a connection to Alien phenomenon?

Melodious

What if...

There were 2 ships one good, one bad. There was a crash, a couple died, a couple were caught, and several escaped by shape shifting into humans.

I just rewatched Monsters, and found that there is a mention of this theory. When Max went over to the Alien Museum, they were discussing crash theories, and this was one of the theories mentioned.

I think it is a really cool theory, to think that maybe someone else was trying to prevent the podsters from getting here.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**

She does resemble an older Liz. This is a little morbid, but here's a cap from M2TM (from Crashdown) of a dead Sheila Hubble.

With her face in shadows, does this look more like the woman above or LIZ? Kind of hard to tell the difference, isn't it?? Is it also merely coincidence this image was scene when Liz kissed Maxcedo? I don't know, seems *really* fishy.

Did Liz merely remind Edsedo of Sheila, which is why he remembered killing her hence Liz had that flash (presumedly what he could have possibly done to Liz if Max hadn't shown up)? Or is the connection between Liz and Sheila MUCH more significant? Sheila (as you speculate StarBox) might have been Zan's "Liz" born far too soon? Since she was born to soon, this *legacy* would have passed down to her daughter (another coincidence we learn Sheila was 3 mos pregnant with a GIRL when she was murdered?), so on and so on until a girl was born that aligned with Zan/Max? Which is why Edsedo killed her? Preventing the "destiny" from being endangered by these lovely, brown-haired temptresses (or their daughters)? I *really* hope Sheila's death is addressed, although I'm not holding my breath.

Melodious

BTW - the pictures are great! They always help get points across with such ease!

OH - AND A BIG WELCOME TO ALL THE NEWBIES THAT HAVE JOINED US WHILE I WAS GONE!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
PS - I'm still way behind on my reading, but hoping to catch up before we reach page 10!

starkissed, there was a lot of discussion on earlier threads about Tess & Ava being switched. So if you came to this on your own, that lends more weight to that theory. (Or even if you read it somewhere and it just really rings true to you). Maybe "Tess" wasn't ready to hatch yet because she was Ava The Dupe?

azcat, good catch on Tess's concern about being able to pass the test. I bet our Lizzie would get straight A's!

LizParkerfan, Great idea on Grant being Kvar's puppet!

Reggie, thanks for pointing out the "must have been a great husband" could be Tess speaking in third person. Of course, we don't know that this is the correct interpretation of the tense--we don't really know anything for sure about Tess except her powers and their importance.

Lillie, maybe Liz's un-Max-view flashes are part of her being 'changed.' Not sure how. Maybe the orb is sentinent after all and she is its channel? Ick.

Did Liz merely remind Edsedo of Sheila, which is why he remembered killing her hence Liz had that flash (presumedly what he could have possibly done to Liz if Max hadn't shown up)? Or is the connection between Liz and Sheila MUCH more significant? Sheila (as you speculate StarBox) might have been Zan's "Liz" born far too soon? Since she was born to soon, this *legacy* would have passed down to her daughter (another coincidence we learn Sheila was 3 mos pregnant with a GIRL when she was murdered?), so on and so on until a girl was born that aligned with Zan/Max? Which is why Edsedo killed her? Preventing the "destiny" from being endangered by these lovely, brown-haired temptresses (or their daughters)? I *really* hope Sheila's death is addressed, although I'm not holding my breath.

Melodious
[/B]

Well - to go WAY off the speculation deep-end (see what no new episodes reduces me too).
IF, as Ava said - Zan was "waiting on someone" - isnt it logical to assume that that someone would be a "dupe" Liz. Either that - or there is only one Liz for Max and Zan to fight over (which seems less likely) - especially since we have Sheila Hubble who looks a heck of alot like Liz. In fact - since EOTW it has bothered me that future Liz didnt really look like "Liz" to me - but now I really think they were trying to make her look more like Sheila (look at the eye makeup on Liz). Plus - the twirl at the end of EOTW shows Liz's hair falling across her face in almost an identical way to Sheila's.
Add that to the fact that IF Sheila was "born" at the time of the crash - the dates work. Add that to the fact that Zan's Liz never showed up. (Yes - as Reggie said - we would assume that Zan's Liz would be their age - BUT if so - where was she?? And if she was born too early - then we DO have a "Liz Double" in Sheila who matches up with the dates, etc.

Now - for the speculative leap - what if Nasedo killed Sheila because he (wrongly) assumed that her daughter would carry the "essence" he could use to pass off a "bride decoy". Unfortunately for him, the daughter looked more like her father's side of the family than her mother's. Remember Tess's mother's name WAS listed as "Sheila".
Like father......

like daughter?????????????????????????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Wow!! Thanks for putting this pic! I had asked earlier about Sheila Hubble since everyone was saying how she looked like our Liz and she does! I do hope she will be mentioned in the future connecting her to Liz

*anne* So, uh would I be able to get HW and SH? If yes then I might check this out I'm badly in need of some Max & Liz action, even if it's from last season

Also, i know that some people might think that Sheila might have been a "dupe" Liz or there might be one out there undiscovered but what i believe is that Liz is special and there is only one of her. Think about it is she is the true bride and she has the alien essence of the true bride then i don't think that "they", meaning whoever sent them there, wouldn't have gone through all that trouble to make a decoy, and plus she would have been already hidden because of her humanessence.

Oh and about Zan, the 4th "missing dupe" i doubt he is alive, after all he did get run over by a truck... That's all i can think of right now, i'll post later when other ideas get in my head.

Liz and Max 4-ever

StarBox, that was a GREAT hint about the meaning of "bride"!! Please, post the non-spoiler backstage info. How reliable is this hint--can we now assume that proto-Zan & proto-Ava were never married, as shapeshifter asked? Or should we take it with a grain of salt and keep speculating about Tess's actual status? What do you think?

P. S. StarBox we must be about the same age, b/c I saw "Escape to Witch Mountain" as a little girl and adored it. It was one of the first sci-fi things I loved--evidently, that love never went away

RE: Song lyrics I think we all agree that the lyrics of the songs chosen for the Roswell episodes are extremely important, the last song especially (i.e., "I Shall Believe"). When rewatching Skin & Bones, I noticed what the lyrics were that were playing when Liz has her flash in front of the Crashdown. The song is Brave New World by Richard Ashcroft, and the lyrics I noticed were, "I hope to see you on the other side/Of this changing world." I thought that was significant in hindsight, given that Liz is changed now. Anyone agree?

Pam

Good idea re: contact with Skins being the "disappearing" factor. And Maria actually disappears just after she makes contact with the green rod--maybe that, being a Skins' device, activated her disappearance? Just a thought.

Norma Bates Since you reiterated your lifebonds post, I'm going to reiterate my praise I believe that this theory is, in fact, correct. I'm not sure how they got to be that way yet (too many ideas still), but I am convinced that Max & Liz do have a lifebond. You are NOT off your rocker; au contraire, you're brilliant, and thanks again for the flesh-out of my mumblings

Pam
Dreamer*Mythologist*Behrian*Applesaucer*CANADIAN

Pam
Dreamer*Mythologist*Behrian*Applesaucer*CANADIAN

Man, I wish I had SH on tape

********************************************

Personally - I think that JK always intened for bride to mean....well...."bride". Not wife, not queen - but BRIDE (as in one about to marry the king).
My gut feeling is that this information is very reliable.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Also, maybe some of you can help me out. Could the sighting in ITW actually have been someone transporting from the future? When EOTW came on, our cable was wonky and it kept cutting out. So, I did not see what FM's arrival actually looked like. (I got the really good stuff, though!:grin Was his arrival similar to the sighting in ITW? If it is, I'm wondering: if Max ran his hand across where FM landed on Liz's balcony, would a symbol also appear there? Also, could someone else from the future be running around Roswell? Maybe the unseen alien who watches our group without being seen?

ALSO: Norma, loved your lifebond post!

Ree99

Brains what to know. LOL

Each avenue is different, but come together in the end! Thanks for such good reading.

There is something special about this paricular thread, maybe because it deals with a HUMAN that deals with everyday alien mythology. It's the difference between the two which makes it absolutely exciting, the best in science fiction. Always changing but moving in the same direction.

I guess my mind is fried, I mean I have been a sci-fi fan forever, always looking for diversity. Cross-love, two souls galaxies apart, joined for a purpose. Kinda reminds me of DUNE.

DeeDee

however, what if this is another lifetime cycle for max & liz and some external force is responsible for preventing max and liz from getting together. only in this lifetime, max breaks the cyle and saves liz, thus changing the future. explains why y.max recognizes y.liz.

to be continued..

A thread started not to long ago about the comparisons between DUNE and Roswell. I don't know if the thread is still active, I haven't seen it the past few weeks. However, there are several similarities between the two. Particularly I think of the similarity between (Paul Atreides) Moad'Dib / Chani and (Zan) Max / Liz. I wonder if Prince/King Zan ever had dreams of a lovely, brown-haired, brown-eyed human girl while on Twilo??

btw deidre, did you catch the new DUNE mini-series on the Sci Fi Channel? I thought it was quite better than the movie imho. The movie left out quite a bit.

Melodious

As this thread provides, there is more that meets the eye. It's deep, and with JK and RM as a team, it's going to be a heck of a ride.

In sci-fi I realize that DESITNY always comes up, but I also realizes that it changes, if not it becomes very dull.

Now with Liz it's neverending, it's open, and remain such because Liz and Max are different.

DeeDee

i think that liz could be the bride. not in the same essence as zan/max but it was another lifetime and max and liz are going down that path again and are to get married.
i don't think that kivar would be a.liz's sister. just who is kivar anyway? during the summit, there were 4 representatives from the other 4 planets, and max makes 5. what planet did kivar rule on?
the only thing i can think of is that kivar was the 1st born, but born illegitimately. the only one that would rule when the king dies, would be zan/max, since he is the legitimate male. thus, his growing hatred to zan/max. he may have fallen in love w/ distant-future liz. liz may have told him that she loved zan/max. kivar, w/ his growing jealousy and hate for zan/max may have pushed him to ruin zan/max and ends up killing liz. he then recruits pure alien tess to impersonate liz. she could be a shapshifter or a skin, since she would not have human dna. she shapeshifts into liz or maybe she's a skin and they rapidly grow a liz husk. pure alien tess is then to marry zan/max and then kill him. however, tess may have fallen in love w/ zan/max and threatens kivar to tell the truth about his disception. in the threat that all would come out, he kills the entire royal four. everyone thinks that liz was killed on the wedding day, when she was probably killed much earlier. so... mom sends the royal four to earth, to learn from their enemies... etc. when they are sent to earth, it's a lifetime where the max and liz just bearly get together before she, too dies, but this time, max saves liz.... changing the cycle.

i hope that makes sense.

Hey shaiwon, something I wanted to add about the (possible) comparing between DUNE and Ros/Liz's Importance. Paul/Moad'Dib was having dreams of Chani long before he ever stepped foot on Arakis (sp?)... he basically fell in love with her before he ever met her. Dreams he mostly kept to himself (with the exception of his mother and later Chani).

Coinciding with some of the prophecy theories, Could Prince/King Zan have ALSO had prophetic dreams (possibly of Liz, his own death, Twilo's upheaval, Earth, etc)? Dreams he might have devulged to a certain extent.... Zan being the King iniciates a "safety clause" of some kind due to the disturbing dreams. If the dreams DO possibly come true, he should be sent to Earth in a hybrid body to fulfill whatever "destiny" he needs to fulfill. However, he keeps the "Liz" part of the dreams to himself (so Zan might be the only one that will remember them/her)? When Max saw Liz in the 1st grade (kindergarten?) steping off the bus, he instantly recognized her as the girl of his dreams? The girl he loved before he ever came to Earth, before he died?

Coinciding further with DUNE, Tess/Ava could be Princess Irulan. Although Paul/Moad'Dib actually married her at the end, it was ONLY to secure the alliance and his power. Chani (bound concubine) was considered his wife & true love... his destiny. Tess is Max's Young Bride, but their marriage quite possibly (if it's still a factor at all) was/is merely a technicality. The one Max is truly in love with and considers his *soulmate* is Liz. He's ALWAYS considered her as such and always will?

I don't know how plausible any of this is, probably not at all . Although Frank Herbert did know how to pen a good story, didn't he?

Melodious

Coinciding further with DUNE, Tess/Ava could be Princess Irulan. Although Paul/Moad'Dib actually married her at the end, it was ONLY to secure the alliance and his power. Chani (bound concubine) was considered his wife & true love... his destiny. Tess is Max's Young Bride, but their marriage quite possibly (if it's still a factor at all) was/is merely a technicality. The one Max is truly in love with and considers his *soulmate* is Liz. He's ALWAYS considered her as such and always will?

Melodious

i agree w/ you, melodious. i couldn't help but think of max/liz/tess after watching dune. i was rushing home from work just to watch all parts of it. maybe for the good of the colony, he marries tess but his heart will always encompass liz. that could definitely explain why he recognizes liz, getting off the bus. just as chani was a strong person... almost like a right hand... liz has the same strong initative for the good of the podsters. it proves to show just how strong liz really is and that she compliments max's persona.

It's probably VERY premature to speculate anything from THE MIRACLE. However, since seeing the promo tonight something has been really bothering me.

So, Liz is changed from Max healing her. This is unknown as yet, but Kyle might have also been changed from being healed by Max (I really wish they'd give us a hint if he was or wasn't). It seemed in the promo Max is healing a bunch of little kids... uhm... if one is to presume *everyone* Max heals "changes", then what exactly is going to happen to those little kids??

If Max is really healing those kids in the promo (it's not some dream sequence or whatever), does anyone feel this is possibly frightfully risky on his part?? Max KNOWS using his healing ability changed at least ONE person (even though Kyle doesn't seem to *feel* any different). Why would Max risk possibly changing others considering he's changed Liz?? Then there's the CadmiumX factor and possible residual silver handprints. It seems rather careless to me, although this IS going on a promo so I better stop the speculating. We don't know anything yet... discussion to be resumed Dec. 18!

Just the thought! Liz is changed, Kyle might be changed, and if Max is indeed healing numerous people in THE MIRACLE... they might all change too?? Max is peopling Earth with *changed* humans! Although I really want to go off on this speculating on Max's possible purpose on Earth... I need to stop because I'm falling asleep on my keyboard.

Melodious

THE MIRACLE!

DeeDee

could it be possible that the healing of Liz launched some sort of mental evolution?
After all we do not know how the healing worked i.e Liz (and all humans)propably just needed outside help to launch powers of her own.
Liz (or her parents/ancestors) may have had a contact before and it all has been latent until Max -unintentionally?- released those powers. This could rather easily be led from the alien/ufolore since there has been publicly known contacts at least on 19th century.
As I have not seen the necesssary eps I am better off not to comment whether or not Liz could be the fourth one.

markku

You're right...I remember that...I wish I had season one on tape! Ugh!! Anyway, I do remember that and thinking that it was weird, what she saw when she kissed him. But I never knew what to make of it...was lightening ever assoicated with the Skins? I'm gonna have to check my tapes tomorrow and see. Or is it a sign of another race of aliens? Okay, I'm gonna stop now, before I confuse myself.

I Shall Believe & I'll Never Forget

It seems rather careless to me, although this IS going on a promo so I better stop the speculating. We don't know anything yet... discussion to be resumed Dec. 18!
the thought!

Huh? What little kids? What preview did you see? I've only seen the one on the WB site, can you let me know where you saw that one?

Thanks

I Shall Believe & I'll Never Forget

sunrise: There's a thread on this board called Episode Downloads....There have been a couple links posted as to where to get eps. No one has Heat Wave yet, but one guy has one part of Sexual Healing. The other four parts have been deleted by his Angelfire server because they violate the terms of service. But he's trying to get them set up! Here's the link:
http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/003139.html

Anne

Regarding the Mommogram-- could her presense be an indicater of a matriachal society?

These are just my own thoughts. I think her apperance is important in that it establishes a female's responsibility to the plight. Obviously, MOM had a lot of importance and influence, which is very encouraging.

I definately think that the Twilo society is male dominanted. And I really don't want to list all the reasons why I think so... I'll just give one.

Tess-- Tess has been raised to "please" the king. I really think that is why Nasedo raised her, so that she could be so strongly influenced and taught tricks (giving erotic fantasies) to Max.

Lonnie-- Lonnie is an independant thinker and one gets the idea that the "independant" woman is a bad girl.

Isabel-- Isabel is also an independant thinker, and does do things to cause friction between Michael, herself, and Max.

Ava/Tess-- Both are suppose to be good. Both play submissive roles. Ava even submits to Liz, but Tess won't.

If the personalities and behaviors of the female podsters are any indication, I think we definately have a patriarchal (sp) society.

--I really don't want to go too far down this path guys, it would really spoil the fun--

Glad to see that Liz is with him at the candlelight service as it snows. Maybe she can talk some sense into Max. He can heal, but not everyone and then only at risk to himself and those he loves. That's a huge responsibility for someone so young.

"To find peace" Max needs Liz, his soulmate, in his life balanced with the relationships with his family and friends.

Melodious

Anyway - here is the symbol I posted from MIC - it appears right as Max looks across the street after Liz disappears - immediately after seeing this symbol he goes to get Tess.

Here is what SF (on the signs and symbols board) found about the symbol:
symbols.com and this image came up: it means "very dangerous here, watch out!"

Now - it could mean that Tess is in danger - or it could mean that MAX is in danger. remember - he has the unfortunate habit of trusting all the wrong people.......

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

i think that liz could be the bride. not in the same essence as zan/max but it was another lifetime and max and liz are going down that path again and are to get married.
i don't think that kivar would be a.liz's sister. just who is kivar anyway? during the summit, there were 4 representatives from the other 4 planets, and max makes 5. what planet did kivar rule on?
the only thing i can think of is that kivar was the 1st born, but born illegitimately. the only one that would rule when the king dies, would be zan/max, since he is the legitimate male. thus, his growing hatred to zan/max. he may have fallen in love w/ distant-future liz. liz may have told him that she loved zan/max. kivar, w/ his growing jealousy and hate for zan/max may have pushed him to ruin zan/max and ends up killing liz. he then recruits pure alien tess to impersonate liz. she could be a shapshifter or a skin, since she would not have human dna. she shapeshifts into liz or maybe she's a skin and they rapidly grow a liz husk. pure alien tess is then to marry zan/max and then kill him. however, tess may have fallen in love w/ zan/max and threatens kivar to tell the truth about his disception. in the threat that all would come out, he kills the entire royal four. everyone thinks that liz was killed on the wedding day, when she was probably killed much earlier. so... mom sends the royal four to earth, to learn from their enemies... etc. when they are sent to earth, it's a lifetime where the max and liz just bearly get together before she, too dies, but this time, max saves liz.... changing the cycle.

i hope that makes sense.

I like the idea of Tess impersonating Liz and them all being killed. But Kivar and Zan can not be brothers! Villandra was in love with Kivar! Yuck! Not to say that that hasn't happened in our society, but I doubt the writers would go that route!

I'm not sure whether we saw Ava use any of her powers or not. Remember the first thing we saw Tess do -- she made Isabel and Mrs. Evans like and trust her.

What did Ava do? Make Liz and the others like and trust her.

I know that if I met someone who looked like Tess, I wouldn't be in such a hurry to trust her. I'd make her prove herself first. But Liz and the others didn't. They just trusted her.

As for Lonnie's statement about how Ava doesn't deserve to be there, I think that Ava's there because she didn't have anywhere else to go, so she subtly used her powers to make Lonnie and the others tolerate her.

One thought I had recently which I wanted to throw into the mix: Is it safe to assume from TEOW that Future Max and Future Liz did not have kids? And if so, why???

It just seems odd to me since they were married for 14 years, and present Liz even states that she wants to have kids.

--Sally

One thought I had recently which I wanted to throw into the mix: Is it safe to assume from TEOW that Future Max and Future Liz did not have kids? And if so, why???

It just seems odd to me since they were married for 14 years, and present Liz even states that she wants to have kids.

--Sally

I agree that in a way it is odd that they didn't have kids, but if they were doing so badly with their enemies, they probably decided that it wasn't a good idea to bring a child into that kind of environment.

In the mean time, here is my new collage...

...the chosen one...

I taped Dune last week, and I'm in the middle of watching it now that we are in reruns. I thought of the similarities also - so far. I understand that George Lucas used a lot of what was in Dune for ideas for Star Wars. I'll have more thoughts once I watch the whole thing - but the prophecy element jumped out at me right away.

Also - interesting in TLV - Liz follows her heart and "believes" in Max even though she saw him kiss Tess. She says she goes on "faith." I wonder if that is what Max will do now?

Zero
I Shall Believe

quote:Originally posted by Dayneen:
Courtney (who we later find out is their to make sure Michael takes the throne). Now how did she know he was there?

I'm thinking Courtney found out about the Ros Royals when the other Skins in Copper Summit found out. I believe, prior coming to Roswell she was part of the Copper Summit Skins, yet she was working *undercover* perse. Keeping her true intentions hidden from her Skin brethren. If there are other little factions of Skins out there (and I have a hard time believing there aren't... those blips at the end of DESTINY seemed pretty spread out); then they all probably have *spies* (aka Michael Worshipping skins) amongst them. Besides the ones that seemingly broke out on their own and/or escaped according to Whitaker's Diary.

quote:Brody (has no idea what the communicator is, but followed the signal to Roswell)...
Also, Why is it that Brody didn't get hurt when the communicator activated. The power knocked Michael out: the force went straight through Brody and didn't hurt him. Was that because he was possessed by Larek at the time??

Speaking of Brody and that communicator. Do any of you find it a little convenient that Brody just happens to stumble on one of these communicators but ALSO happens to be a human that's possessed everso often by one of the Council members (Larek)? I'm not entirely certain it was his own actions that inclined Brody to buy it. Perhaps a little, basing on how much these possessions affect him and other possessed humans. He might have recognized it somehow? Could a Skin or some other alien (emissary?) sold it to him specifically KNOWING he was one of the "possessed humans" and/or council members? Why? Do all the council members have these alien beepers (or some other kind of alien device)?

This speculating is kind of stretching, but perhaps it's the beeper itself that allows the Twilo Alien to continuously possess the human? The human was initially abducted and possibly planted with some sort of device and/or changed? But it's the beeper that allows the Alien to leap into the human at whatever time s/he wishes... the beeper kind of like a conduit for Twilo and/or the Granilith? The beeper also functions however as a means of protection... I don't know what Michael's intent was when he went to spy on Brody, but the beeper picked up on him and knocked him out. If there's a connection between the beeper and Larek... this gets my mind churning...

Larek seemed to be Zan's friend at one time, they grew up together acc. to Larek. This could be why the beeper responded negatively to Michael/Rath but not to Max/Zan -- the beeper recognized Zan as an ally but Rath as an enemy? If this is at all the case, why? Could there have been an assassination attempt made by Rath against Larek in the past life? In order to protect the human body (Brody), the beeper goes on alert - recognizing Rath (a danger) - and this is why it knocked Michael out and not Max? Or could Rath have known something about Larek in the past life and the beeper (in order to protect Larek's interests) knocked out Michael/Rath (attempting to kill him possibly) in order to keep whatever secret/knowledge Rath has buried? The beeper responding independently or is it being controlled by Larek in a far off galaxy? Granted, this is all fairly crazy.

Melodious

I just got a complement from my sis about a line I said:

"I am not closing a door, but I am not waiting by it either."

So that is not completely OT, I have to say I think that that is what Max is saying when he is open for a friendship!

In light of the promos-I read in the TV Guide description (I don't think that's a spoiler -if it is I'm sorry) that Max DOESN'T help out when tragedy strikes and is haunted by regret. But SOMETHING made him jump up and risk everything to save Liz. The million dollar question is... WHY?

wow, wonderful theories, all of you. i would've posted earlier, but it's taken me this long just to get through all the posts from this thread. that said, i have a few ideas of my own...

Nermal- in regards to why liz doesn't appear to have a protector if she's the secret bride: i'm not entirely sure if i think she's a secret bride, but there was another thread going about how nicholas escaped tess's blazing inferno, and one of the questions raised was what is the funky vision that we keep getting shots of, in S&B, WO, and maybe in some other eps i'm forgetting about. one theory was that this is "skin-o-vision," but i have my own idea. what if this is being shown from the point of view of an alien species we haven't been formally introduced to yet? i mean, in both the eps we've seen it in, the characters don't make it clear if they know they're being watched or not. if they know they're being watched (nasedo seems to sense this) then surely they would look for the watcher, wouldn't they? and interestingly enough, in all the instances in which they seem to be watched they don't appear to be able to see whomever is watching them. now, the skins aren't exactly transparent, are they? plus, if it was the skins watching, why wouldn't they quickly take care of the podsters, nasedo, liz & maria? especially if they're invisible to them? but how does this relate to liz, you ask. i think that this watcher is there to guard over the podsters and especially liz. ok, but why has this watcher only just now shown up? because liz is changing, that's why. suppose for a moment that the twilonians sent the podsters to earth because of the prophecy, that the king would heal an earth girl who would then be changed and would help save the planet (how, i'm not exactly sure...). ok, if the podsters are their only hope, it makes sense that they would send along guardians for them. but if they were relying on the fulfilment of the prophecy, it would certainly also make sense to send along a guardian for the earth girl (liz). now, supposing that there is only one earth girl, and max found her (zan obviously did not) and therefore only one guardian for her, or there were two guardians but one of them was killed in the crash/caught by the fbi/etc., the lone guardian now has a dilemma. which set of podsters does he go with? which king will fulfill the prophecy? supposing he went with the ny four for whatever reason (he thought they were the true royals, our podsters were programmed to hatch at a later time, something...) to watch zan and potentially guard the earth girl. somehow at the beginning of season two he becomes aware that the roswell podsters have hatched and that max has saved an earth girl. realizing that he's been with the wrong royals, he ditches them in ny and hauls butt to roswell. upon arrival in roswell he finds a dire situation; the skins have found the podsters and he must now contend with them so as to ensure the safety of the royals and liz. this explains his presence in S&B when michael is watching the excavation of pierce's bones (there was a skin in the vicinity, remember?) and also his presence nearby nasedo when he found the skin shedding. this also would explain his presence near maria and liz in WO when the skins are in town. he was there to keep an eye on her and to protect her from the skins, if need be. luckily for him, the skins don't know that liz is the girl from the prophecy, or else they are unaware of the prophecy(?), or they surely would have toasted her in Harvest. this raises some other interesting questions, however- namely, why didn't the protector work with nasedo, and why couldn't nasedo see him? what species is he, and how many species are there on twilo, or is the protector an alien from one of the other four planets (larek's perhaps?)? was he originally the ny four's protector, and did they know that they weren't the real deal when he left them so abruptly? why didn't he save nasedo, or is nasedo not the good guardian we're supposed to think he is? more questions exist than i can possibly list now, but you see where this would go....

CharmedKitten- in ITW, you were wondering about the sighting. i have an idea about that, probably way off, but we know that tess can project images for other people to see...what if she was projecting the image of a ufo to get the attention of the podsters? or maybe, like somebody said, it was just nasedo projecting the image.

lastly, i just wanted to throw out something i thought of the other day that is totally unrelated to anything anyone else said in this thread already. it was probably mentioned a long time ago in an earlier thread, but i figure it won't do any harm to put it up again now. so i was standing in my kitchen and i remembered something that max said to liz in LN. remember how she asked him if he could heal her grandmother? well, what i thought of was his response- "Liz, when i saved you, it was because you were shot, and there was a bullet in you. Something was happening to you that wasn't supposed to happen. It was before your time...." whoa, back the horse up there.... it was before her time. if that's not an important statement about liz's importance, i don't know what is. how, exactly, did max know that it wasn't liz's time to die yet? sounds like somebody's been telling our favorite twilonian king bedtime stories about a certain prophecy...

well, that's enough for me for now, i'm supposed to be studying for finals....

jennifer

I also missed the promo last night! Does anyone know where I can download it???

starE-sorry I don't know where you can get a promo clip----oh btw did you hear the clicking yet in MITC I was referring to when Max comes upon Tess totally alone and he asked what happened as she is answering him turn up your VOLUME---there is about two or three times you hear this funny odd clicking noise--as Max cups her face and she is talking saying stuff like I don't know blah blah....hope that helps.

Now, to another topic - the age old question of WHY Harding rescued Liz, not Max from the house of mirrors? It has been bugging me that Ava had this immediate reaction to Liz when told about the healing, but Harding - who knew about the healing and later Liz's visions - did not have a similar reaction. Harding states a number of times that is sole purpose is to protect the 4 podsters. Nothing else. He didn't even know how to operate the communicators. This leads me to believe that Harding was nothing but a worker bee type "created" solely for this protection purpose. More information on the Twilo society and social structure would help, but, my thinking here is that Harding was not privy to the prophecy concerning Liz that Ava - from an educated class - was. That Harding worked solely on Max's orders, and when Max said that he would not leave the house of mirrors without Liz, Harding took this as an order to rescue her - thus, he did - then went back to rescue Max.

Sorry this is so long winded, but... I had/have lots of thoughts, and not enough time.

I will be putting up the new thread tomorrow, probably without an update to the Intro, though a date or two change/addition. I still want to read the back pages on this thread - especially the life bonding (or something like that) that I've seen mentioned. If whoever wrote it would PM it to me - or repost it on this page - I will see if I can't at least incorporate that bit in the intro.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Just doing my part in getting a new thread started This one is almost thru!

Nite all

I also missed the promo last night! Does anyone know where I can download it???

I know what you mean, I missed it too! But if you go the thewb.com and go to monday you can see at the bottom of the eppy description "trailer" I think this is what they showed last night cause I only saw the promo that was on the net last or two weeks ago (?) and this one was different.

Hope that helps

BTW - GraceKel - your backwards "C"'s are a Wicca symbol - saw them tonight on the cover of a book. I dont know what they mean yet.
A girl at work said she thinks it is a fertility thing??? UGH - wouldnt that be great.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

RedHawk~ WOW!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer[/B]

Or perhaps bride could mean that she did marry him, but something happened before they went home. Perhaps she was kidnapped or killed by the enemy.

Um, why are some of us TRYING TO GET TO 250 POSTS???????? When it gets this close, I generally edit my old posts to give Zero a chance to pull together the next thread. Sorry if I sound self righteous--it's late and I'm tired.

Sallykins, I think FM didn't tell Liz that they had kids so she wouldn't mourn the loss.

It might be a totally wacked out theory (I thought of this at 4am and has been awake for 22 hours already) but I'm going to embarrass myself anyway by sending this.

LIFEBONDS vs. SOULMATES:
Soul mates are usually described as people being very alike in feelings and motivation. They work very well to gather for common goals that are the same. They have a connection of purpose and a similarity in thinking. Their skills compliment each others so that together they accomplish more and are stronger/better than if they worked individually toward the same goal. But soul mates aren’t necessarily a permanent connection and they could be with several people.

Life bonds take "soul mate" one step further. Life bonds are usually found in telepathic sci-fi (Kathy Tyers' "Firebird" for example) and fantasy genres. Before they can be life bonded, they must be soul mates first. They are linked together mentally, emotionally and constantly. Life bonds in fiction are rare and not taken lightly. They are a permanent one on one connection…till death do they part. The creation of a life bond is a matter of choice. It doesn’t just happen. Authors sometimes use the theory that if a pair decides to life bond, they spend some time apart first, to strengthen and stretch the bond, (to change the bond,) and to contemplate on their choice. Both must agree and be fully committed to each other. There is no divorce option except death. Once that is done, the 2 open their connections to each other, mind and soul, to the fullest extent and then “cement” their relationship, making the bond permanent.

The drawbacks to life bonding includes:
1. If they are separated from each other, they feel incomplete, not whole.
2. Long term separation can lead to mental instability or insanity because one balances the other’s strengths and weaknesses emotionally and physically.
3. If one of a bonded pair dies, it can cause a deep depression to the point of suicide. The remaining survivor has trouble adapting and balancing themselves.

Some things that life bonds aren’t:
1. They are not mind reading skills. They send strong impressions or emotions. Right now, if Max and Liz were life bonded, he would know she was lying but not why unless she told him.
2. They are still separate people capable of misunderstandings.
3. Life bonds cause a lot of stress and misunderstanding because they are so close emotionally, they forget to communicate verbally.
4. Having secrets between a life bonded pair causes a lot of frustration and pain between them.

LIFEBONDED TO SOON?
Could what Future Max (FM) is talking about in TEOTW be a hint that, not knowing what they were doing, they became life bonded too soon?

FM: Liz, I am telling you what happened, and we have to change that. We have to. And so far, we've failed. Liz, it's not just Max that's the problem here. You are. You are not letting yourself change. Now you have to do something...before it's too late.

Liz wasn’t going to change or be able to life bond to Max without first making a decision that she wanted to go ahead with the relationship. From Destiny until TEOTW she kept herself apart and tried to withdraw but after seeing Madame Vivian she changed her mind and decided to take a chance…to start changing. Perhaps FM found out that Liz would develop her own powers if they hadn't become life bonded and solidified the links so early. Max coming back and keeping her separated allowed the connections to grow stronger. Liz needed time to stretch the links, to change both physically and mentally and taking Isabel's hand in Max in the City (MITC) was only the first step of finding out whom she really is and what she can do.

DISCLAIMER:
Ok. I’m off my rocker, I’ll admit it. Hopefully I didn’t steal anyone else’s theories. And some are far fetched theories. But what are your opinions. I’d love feedback. Even if it is a “you are so stupid…” I never claimed to be brilliant, only slightly brighter than a broken light bulb.

---Stories from a deranged mind.

Zero, you asked for me to either PM or repost. Here's the repost.

During the previews for the Roswell Christmas Carol or whatever they are calling it, we hear Tess yelling about living in this house and not even having a chair. My question is: Up until now we have never seen Tess lose her cool and yell at anyone. Don't you find it rather strange that all of a sudden she is yelling about not having a chair to sit in?

Not very Tess like. More like Lonnie, don't you think?

We know that there are markings in Machu Pichu, Peru, markings that are the same as the drawings in Nasedo's cave (Balance). Maybe hundreds of years ago some of the aliens related to Max came to earth , to live? Maybe to study this planet? For a possible refuge with an impending war? Might've been looking to start a new life on a new world?? The human race did it with America, though it was on the same planet. Maybe these aliens settled here, and lived here for hundreds of years, and after pro-creating with humans over all those hundreds of years. Their descendants evolved into humans, all the way down to human cells, but the alien essence and power lies dormant within it's descendants. Maybe even the alien DNA is there, but can only be detected by extensive DNA testing ( I don't know if this is plausible). This leads us to Liz, maybe she's a descendant of this alien race, and her connection to Max is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. Maybe it stated that a galaxy (the 5 worlds) would be in serious conflict, a conflict that will destroy them all, and the only way these worlds will be saved is by a union between a young king of the ruling planet and a descendant from an ancient alien race who's souls are connected by the spiritual power of the Granolith (they are from the same planet: their pasts are parallel: they worshipped the same god etc., that helps to form the connection). They are the chosen ones. Maybe is stated that this descendant would be assassinated, but reserrected, and as a result her power will be awaken. And from there, the journey begins………… This could possibly be a scenario for Liz.

I was catching up with pages 2 through 5 when I read this. With what you wrote, it made me wonder...was Nesado even on the ship that crashed or could he have been sent ahead to prepare the way. Nesado didn't know what the other 3 podsters looked like or what to expect from them. He only seemed to know of them. Perhaps he was told he needed to keep an eye out for them and then babysitting duty fell on his lap because of the crash. If he was on the ship, he should have had more background information.

Maybe he only knew about the 4 podsters and nothing of Liz. Perhaps Mom (from the Mom-0-Gram) sent Tess and said that she was the bride when she announced to the people that the pods went to earth. Nesado would only have that information to go on. If Liz is alien and not just changed, perhaps Mom might have arranged to send the fixings for something other than a pod-birth (grandma Claudia? Shelia Hubble?) with them but only told one of the shape shifters that she trusted and expected to carry it out. Or perhaps Liz was changed by Max healing her.
Mom wouldn't have warned any other aliens to keep an eye out for Liz.

Tess would not the bride then, but a stalking horse to protect Liz. Perhaps Tess was a trusted and loyal part of Zan’s Royal Guard (size isn’t everything if she had strong powers to compensate) and volunteered but doesn’t remember. That's why Tess said in MITC: "You must have been a great husband." Tess DOESN'T REMEMBER Max as her husband because he wasn’t her husband. What she takes for love might be finatic loyalty and love for her ruler. A good ruler cares for his personal guards with affection and friendship. Tess might have rememmbered this and took it as Max being in love with her. Nesado has been telling her all along that she's the bride and Max loved her.

Secondly, how old is Nesado truly? I get the impression he's been around a long time (more that just 50+ years.) He seems very resilian with the help of the healing stones. He has a lot of artifacts from ancient and primative civilizations. He could have learned those symbols from the ancient Machu Pichu, Peru himself. How did he get the money for all this on an advisors salary? Maybe he's old enough to have been there.

If Liz was changed or if she was sent and was born without a pod birth, what better way to hide and protect her than to have her born among humans while Tess is playing stalking horse.

Perhaps the 4 podsters needed a "human" connection to better use their powers. I don't have much time to figure out how to post picts (it's after 1am and I need to be up at 6am), but the 4-square symbol was 4 ovals with a comma in the center set in a square pattern and an "X" connecting the the 4 ovals. If each pod is represented by the 4 ovals, maybe Liz is represented by the "X. She could be a bridge or a catalyst between the alien powers and the human powers (and the Granolith?)

---Ideas from a rambling mind.

Anne

When I read all this information, I walk away from here pondering each theory and you know they make so much sense to me.

Great job guys!

Um, why are some of us TRYING TO GET TO 250 POSTS???????? When it gets this close, I generally edit my old posts to give Zero a chance to pull together the next thread. Sorry if I sound self righteous--it's late and I'm tired.

[/B]

Well - personally - I try to get to 250 once Zero indicates she is going to be posting a new thread so that she can do so freely with FF moderator approval. It seemed helpful to me after the FF "reminder" about not opening new threads until we were over 250.
Zero - what do you prefer??? :-)

About Max/Liz and kids - I really, really HOPE they did not have kids. If they married at 19 and the world was ending 12 years later - they would have either had to have kids right away (bad idea - but at least the kids would have not been totally dependant at the time of the war - they could have done things like run by themselves/use their powers a little bit - they could have had an 8 -9 year old if Liz had gotten pregnant on her honeymoon) or start making babies right around the time the conflict was escalating (really, really bad idea).
Max is the leader of his people - the (commander of the troops) - in EOTW he says "I have fought a thousand battles". In my opinion - it would be stupid and irresponsible for Max and Liz to put their own desire to make babies ahead of the well being of the world and their responsibilities as leaders - also to put it above the well being of the children - who would be born in the middle of a war and be prime targets for hostages. And neither Max nor Liz are impulsive or short-sighted (in fact - I bet present Liz - with her color-coded charts didnt have kids planned in her hypothetical future until at least her early-mid 30's even when she was dating Kyle!).
FM and Liz would have only been 32 - which is still below the age most men start families. I am sure that they were waiting until it was safe to start a royal family.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

What made the question so interesting to me was the fact that Royal Couples are usually under a lot of pressure to produce children quickly to ensure an heir. (Actually an heir and a spare). There just seems to be a disconnect somewhere...

--Sally

Zero
I Shall Believe!