The following is a LONG summary (oxymoron?) of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I try to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled; however, not all theories are covered in-depth (remember, I have limited human brain capacity, so can only retain only so many theories). This intro is not up-dated from the last couple of thread – I just don’t have the time due to end of the year and holiday stuff. So, hopefully, the next rendition will be a complete up-date (I really want to include the Life Bonds theory and the Hero Journey outline, plus some other great ideas that have been set forth!). Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance!

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions – or is it time zones? - recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz and felt a special connection to her. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that connection irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t let go of the connection, but after events in NY is willing to give their friendship another try, and that there is MORE to that connection as we have always assumed. Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions re: that connection have been answered in this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz – whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. After MITC, we now KNOW that LIZ HAS CHANGED (or is changing – maybe the change that FM said she had to have occur, and wasn’t letting happen!) as a result of Max “bringing her back,” but Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply that something more is involved, beyond a mere acquisition of a power or two – but more on that later! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squad’s planet? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? But if so, and she is part alien, why did she disappear in Wipeout? She did cause the Skin’s shed skin to disintegrate, but that could have other reasons for occurring.)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” and romanced a predecessor to Liz – but was called back to Twilo, leaving his true love behind.
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz? Could Tess/Ava be a ruse to protect the true queen – Liz - from being discovered before she has time to develop her powers that would protect her and her loved ones?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.)
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies, such as the key to operating the Granolith – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her?
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Twilo? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Granolith and the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story – Ava had heard this story foretold during her previous life on Twilo? ;
· Could it just be Liz's extremely advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the many theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special all his human life – and he never connected with Ava the way one would have expected if she was his mate even though they had (we assume) spent their entire life on Earth together. I guess we will never know unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones (all 5 of them w/ Liz present) – anything is possible? We don’t know what happened to his body.) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?) – Liz looks directly at Max as he gets off the bus, with a sort of recognition. They obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were friends and lab partners more recently. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that we know are all human (according to Harding in WR). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking already – yet dormant – powers existing within her? Ava’s reaction seems to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle? There seems to be more to it than that! Though Kyle may develop his own powers someday??

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins – are her parents her true birth parents or is she adopted like the Evans kids? Does she have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race? Why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble? And does how all this play into the connection with Max and her new found “abilities/powers” (The first known appearing to be astral projection.) Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur? We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the Twilo conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. Rath sarcastically comments about how hard it is to travel through space to Earth – thus the need to possess humans long-distance – but the podsters obviously got here somehow (and fairly quickly if the comments concerning the warring for 50 years is correct - I will explain this if you don’t get what I mean – just ask) – so travel to and from Earth must be possible and not unreasonable. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ people from long ago? And how does the Granolith fit into this? We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Whitaker and Courtney seemed to think it was a means to their salvation – but why? It is obviously of great importance – maybe the Holy Grail of the V constellation? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? If it is only a transport system, I don’t they would have had such a concerned reaction – so their must be more to it than that. Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the prophesized protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time (apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way before their discovery?). (So, many questions – still! … !)

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his original “destiny” on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a human alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction – maybe she had “heard” the prophecy or Zan’s searching was tied to it somehow! Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the podsquad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are “human.” Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters? Though the Dupes do seem to have memories of their past lives – at least Lonnie appears to - we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time!) Are the visions Max’s alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! What else is stored deep within there, and can he prevent having it MRd out of him? There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history destined to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the secrets being kept by the podsters from one-another. We now know that Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself Zan was killed through treachery on Twilo, then Zan-reborn was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no?? Maybe we make our own destiny with a little help from our friends.

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons. Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again. And the promo for ARCC looks like he is still committed to Believing in Liz – thus, following his heart back to her!

The symbolism throughout the both seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often. Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! There is a prominent picture of a Ship between Max and Maria when they are discussing his love for Liz. The old Scandinavian tale of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his score "The Flying Dutchman", symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love. In desperation the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful. Senta, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears that she will be faithful to the Dutchman unto death. However, in doing so, she betrays her finace Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she was trying to save. The Dutchman puts out to sea, but his vessel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned. HOWEVER - the pair are now seen RISING from the now-CALMED waters, TRANSFIGURED and REDEEMED by their SACRIFICE. Salvation is no impossibly idealistic dream, but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth.

Then there is the dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. We are currently in the "year of the dragon." Here are some Dragon “meanings”:
· In the Chinese Horoscope, the Dragon is in the FIFTH ranking order.
· The Dragon's corresponding western sign is ARIES.
· The Dragon’s ruling planet is VENUS.
Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her (unless dragons have been popping up on other characters’ windows?). But since this is the year she discovers that she has “powers,” it is reasonable to think of her as being “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon … as the Dragon. (Thank You Meloudious 1, Starbox and Bluecornmoon for your thoughts on the Dragon!)

There are lots of others! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent and clever for that!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? Could it be Liz? (Though most accept that Tess/Ava were the “bride.”) Why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day.) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. (Zan and Ava didn’t seem to be working at producing off-spring.) Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts – why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection?) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the podsquad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!)

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, and connecting with Max to save his life in NY.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max ‘fall out of love with her’). She could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we found out is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment (who knows who to believe on this one??). Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” or complement Max, and bring him into “balance”? Could she possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection, at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing, and how the visions play into the powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “planted” visions like Tess is able to do). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps!) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions of Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifter, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? The vision seems similar to that Liz gets in SH when see “sees” the orb being buried. Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has this come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run”? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully, and the third being the path we are on now!) OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY, and it prevented him from turning it over to the other aliens - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug him – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed! Does he really “know” as Kyle seems to think Max always does?

I want to add something about Liz’s hero journey here, but it is late, and I am tired. So it will have to wait – but trust me – Liz’s appears to be taking that journey!

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the podsquad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Ummmmm?

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! TEOTW occurs in 2014! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Recently, “Run, Lola, Run” was referred to (Surprise) as the story of Liz’s life. Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the podsquad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seem to be confined to their husks. But the Skins and Max’s alien predecessor’s kind seem to have been from different races. Many of us think that the podsquad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without notice? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race of aliens on Earth (a third race of aliens)? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? If Ava knew that Liz had been changed by Max’s healing, shouldn’t Harding have known? AND if he did know, why didn’t he divulge this information? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee” – and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection.

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across. I have added dates from the Crashdown Timeline and the Whitaker Diaries, but they are questionable, and have no basis in episodes aired, so take them with a grain of salt.

1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
1993 – Maria’s Dad leaves
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
11/11/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex wind up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max & Liz share their first kiss (Heatwave)
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this – WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I am reposting this from page 11 of the last thread, as I am sure this topic will come up repeatedly:

Melodius wrote:

quote:

P.S. Is it snowing where you are? It's snowing here!

P.S. Is it snowing where you are? It's snowing here!

Me three! We're only getting a few flurries right now Not nearly enough IMO

Oh! BTW I was gonna say something important about Liz, but I forgot what it is oh, well. I'll remember...eventially.

Just thought I'd drop by and say that this eppy reinforced Liz's importance in a rather interesting way. In keeping with the new
more mature Liz we've seen this season, she realy outshone everyone in this eppy:

Michael: sweet but clueless; on one hand challenging Max on the other supporting him

Maria: emotions all over the board

Kyle: insensitive at first but has a dawning perception of events around him

Tess: sad but sweet...wrapped up in the season

Izzy: the Nazi Christmas person

Max: haunted

You only have to look at the above to see in a flash how all of the characters serve as foils for Liz's calm maturity and wisdom in this eppy.

As my daughter might say...Liz...you go girl!

LSS

Many loves,

Great job as always with the summary.

I tend to agree that last nights episode just re-enforces the importance of Liz to the Pod Squad. She appears to be the one with the calm and maturity to analyze the situation and develop some type of plan to solve the problem.

The fact that Max keeps turning to her in time of doubt or confusion, despite the effect of the Liz/Kyle interaction, for guidance and support says more about her importance than any words or scene written to convey this involvement (talk about about a long run-on sentence (LOL)).

Now if the TPTB would just follow through with this story line we would be much better off.

NoDak

Many loves,

I agree with you, Behriana, except I don't think that Liz was too harsh. She was just emphasizing her point: Max can not help everyone!

EC2k

Sorry, feeling goofy tonight.

Yay, sunrise and Squeaker! We rock.

And about the parents very funny AZCAT but I have this little problem when things don't make sense, it drives me a little nuts. Oh continuity is my other one LOL.

I can see SHAPESHIFTER dragging out her SHADES OF GREY speech for me LOL-just kidding!!!!!!

I thought the episode was very heart felt.

This is a little of the Liz topic, but i just love to hear the feed back from all of you guys.

Why di d this particular man decide to haunt Nax, and how did he know about restoring the balance. I thought that was only a concept that the aliens knew about. And don't you think that it is weird that it went full circle to heal Body's daughter, whom we know becomes the host body for Larek a former friend of Max/Zan. It seems as if Max was being tested by someone or something. I know this episode was suppose to stand alone, but it seemed to raise some questions, and have tons of clues that we just havent't had a chance to dissect, yet.I can't wait until we hash it all out.

Well anyways, Liz was so calm and collected, i just love it!!!Go Liz

later,chicatron

I've been out of the Roswell loop for the past couple of weeks, you know very busy with Christmas preperations and all and I have missed beeing here very much.

I truely enjoyed this Christmas episode, the Christmas Nazi was just too funny, and I admit I cried like a baby when Max was healing the children. The song they chose for that scene was sooo beautiful. Does anyone know the name of it and who sings it?

Did anyone mention that Brody's house # is 140? There's that #14 again!!!!!

All I could think of when the ghost dad was singing Amazing Grace was our own GraceKel, and how amazing she is at finding clues. Speaking of Grace if you're out there did you notice or have you noticed in the past that Michael's wallpaper in the kitchen is DIAMONDS!

Well, I'm afraid I don't have much time to play on here tonight. There are tons of Christmas cookies to be made!

Hope everyone is enjoying their holiday season!

Starstruck

GraceKel - Tess as Becky Home-Ec-y was just too out-of-the-clear-blue-sky. I am reserving ny judgements about whether she is bad or good until after the next story arc.
For now - I am siding with my husband - she is the bi-polar alien.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
(P.S - its SNOWING!!!!)

Liz and max with the "V" pattern holding hands:

Liz as Venus:

Liz and Max as twin souls - notice how they come together to form the "swirl" on the orb activated during Sexual Healing. Also - notice the "Emergency" sign behind them - when they come to gether it reads "MERGE"

Liz as the keeper of/key to the granolith:
Picture of the granolith chamber in the crashdown:

Sheila Hubble:

Liz as the Virgin Mary/key to Salvation:

The dragon on Liz's window:

Images thanks to crashdown, shapeshifter, redhawk and www.theddd.com
THANKS!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Version 2: The 'aliens' are all time travelers trying to beat each other at a 4-dimensional chess game.

--not sure where to post it, so I'm posting it on this thread & the Liz thread--the mods can shoot me so long as Max is ready to come forward and do the laying on of hand routine

P.S.: Thread 22 is up at the above link

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Uh oh, if this is true Shapeshifter, I think my head's gonna explode!

This is a really cool concept. Can you elaborate a little bit? I'm not really sure I get it. Time travelers from earth's future, or from the future on their planet?

EC2k (what does that mean?) - I wondered about this too - wondering what JK was thinking when he wrote this interaction. Many have compared Liz to the Virgin Mary and others to a "chosen one" who is the subject of a prophecy that she will help save humanity. I happen to be fairly religious, so view these things through my rose-colored glasses. But what I think is happening is that Max is saying that he didn't believe in God, but he does believe in Liz, and if she believes in God, then maybe there is something to it. (Does that make sense?) I know many people come to believe in God based on events (sometimes miraculous) in their lives - others just based on an appreciation of what they have around them. Max has been confronted with an event that can not help but change how he views the world around him and the powers he has. The event has nothing to do with the aliens that threaten him, and the ghost had its origin somewhere, and came to force Max to deal with his emotions (and bring things back into "balance"). Was the ghost sent by God? Only Max can decide that for himself, but he has to realize that maybe there is something out there bigger than he is (in the scheme of things), and Liz's belief in God may be all the comfort he needs right now since her plan helped restore the balance. I'm rambling, but I hope that I've made some sense.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Starbox - Thanks for all the pictures!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

First off, there are so many places to go with Max's "I believe in you" line, that I won't even start now, because I have to work tommorow.

Number note: The ghost's house number (or was it Brody's?) was 131. 1+3+1=5.

And finally, here are my thoughts on the healing issue that I just posted on the ssci-fi thread:

The two things that made Liz's healing uniquie were 1) the fact that she was so
close to death/had actually crossed over into death at one point (yes, I know that there is some debate about this) and 2) the flashes. Kyle was pretty close to death, but no flashes. The kids got flashes, but death wasn't as eminent as it was with Liz and Kyle, who "died and were brought back by an alien," according to Kyle in EOTW. Technically, the kids were just dying, not dead. And of course, there's also the M/L reverse connection to consider. As for Max being able to cure cancer...I'm definitely going to need some clarity on that from the writers, since it pretty much flies in the face of his own description of his powers. Maybe the fact that all the aliens are getting stronger, as was noted in "Surprise," means that their are fewer limitations on his
powers.

Starbox-if you put Tess as SUZIE HOMEMAKER and the CLICKING all I could think of was the STEPFORD WIVES LOL!!!!!
I hate to sound stupid here but it won't be the first time or last I'm afraid but what is meant by BI-POLAR alien?

Shapeshifter--funny you mentioned a chess game under way did you notice the CHESS CLUB sign in the ROSWELL HIGH hallway in ASK NOT EPPY? Interesting theory you've got going here but it is going to get very complicated to follow if this is the case.

Oh Starbox--forgot to tell you I like the idea you said about Zan having secretly married the one he truly loved while an impending marriage was planned for him---could be!!!!

Zero nice explanation on the religious ideas presented in the show.

Sorry I know I missed something or someone here will be back.

Cool pictures of Liz in the mating book.
But why with Nicolas, or Michael?

later, chicatron

Starbox must think about that TESS book some more--interesting about the LIZ name above Isabels pic.

GraceKel - Bi-polar just means bipolar personality disorder (i.e manic depression) - people with huge mood/personality swings.

The more I look at that picture - the more it looks like Nicolas and Liz to me - now wouldnt THAT be interesting. Nicolas did have the symbol from the front of the book on his sunglasses in Wipe Out.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

chicatron..

I still need to catch up with the last thread, so please ignore me if this has already been brought up.
Wasn't Brody cured of cancer by the alien abduction or was that my imagination? And if so is it probable that his daughter has cancer too? In other words, does bone marrow cancer run in families? And what is the probability that two people have it in the same household? Sorry if that was OT.

It looks to me like that really is Tess and not Lonnie. But who knows?!?

Just wanted to invite you over to my new website. (In case, you don't get your fill of my collages and animations on this thread. ) Welcome to the Grand Opening of redhawk's Roswell! www.geocities.com/redhawksroswell

And a new animation:

Now I'm off to get some much needed sleep after all that Christmas shopping today. Whew! ::redhawk wipes her brow:: ...need sleep...

I like it.

I wonder if the progression is significant -- first the 131, next the 140 at Brody's. As if the 3 and the second 1 have now coalesced, but the first 1 is still separate, perhaps to join in later.

One thing that struck me in the first season (this 1-3-1 reminds me) was that when someone's hand was up, often the last finger (like the thumb) was held a little apart from the middle three. (Often, though not always. Don't know if it means anything -- my left hand goes that way anyway, maybe from holding a trombone.) This is one of those small things that could be either "signal or noise" as pixiedude put it long ago.

from Four Square

from Crazy

from Independence Day

from White Room

Now on to what I intended to say...I definitely think that we should check further into the number thing. As a general rule numbers do not re-occur so often. I read somewhere that there is actually a rule as to how often a certain number will appear out of a given number of tries. Some numbers are more often seen than others. Can't remember all the specifics now. Does anyone out there study numerology or know someone that can shed some light on it? I know that different numbers and combinations of numbers have meaning. I think that I might check this out. Could someone give me a list of the numbers that you have seen that contain either 1 and 4 or add up to 5?

Oh, now you have seriously rattled my cage.
But these days maxcedo has most of my numbers -- you could look there.
http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/numbers.htm Others have posted a lot about numbers -- anyone care to point out where?

As for the theory of how often numbers occur at random vs. their size, Martin Gardner wrote about that (some time ago in the Mathematical Recreations pages of Scientific American, maybe you can find it in one of his books?). There have also been posts on symbolic connotations of numbers -- here or on Rosta's Signs and Symbols thread?

StarBox, this is Really interesting, especially since I didn't see most of season 1,and if it's possible I would love to see the pics of Max and Tess, and whatever other ones were shown. That definitly looks like Nicolas and Liz to me...but why not Isabell and him, they have a history (I'm getting scared of the Liz as Max's sister theory now!)Is it possible that Tess lied and it isn't a "mating book", but actually just a book of pics of royalty??? Could it be possible that Nicolas was a friend before he was a foe??? anyway, just thoughts...

Oh, and to the person who asked about Max's "I believe in you" (I'm sooo sorry that I forgot) anyway, I'm going to take a much more simplistic view on this one than Zero has, although hers is great and much more interesting. Mine is just that he believes in her the way anyone in love believes in the person they are in love with. He has faith in her, and doesn't have to believe in God to know that she is the person he wants to spend his time with.

~shanna~

PS. Could someone theorize as to why I can't get the smiles legend to ever come up?

Yes, both Sydney and Brody had bone marrow cancer… from Ask Not “Yeah, I know. I hate the word, too. I mean, you can tell people you've seen the Virgin Mary and they'll light candles outside your bathroom, but you tell 'em you've been abducted by aliens and they'll write you off as a lunatic. It happened to me 7 years ago. I was driving my car down the Massachusetts Turnpike, and before you know it, I'm in the room and they're doing...something to me, and then I'm back in my car and 2 days have gone by, and I'm in West Virginia. I would have written the entire thing off as an acid flashback. Then my doctor told me the cancer was gone. It was bone marrow. Terminal. A year to live and poof...it's gone.”

And from ARCC “Yeah cancer, it’s in her bone marrow… inoperable…”

Look closely at "The Miracle". Many subtle clues. I Know I know a stand alone eppy.

Mr. Moore left many in MITC, but I guess you know that.

Actually since the beginning of season 2.

I think they think, you are brillant! smiles.

Liz is important, and the small and quiet search in there, ongoing.

DeeDee

Responding to the whole destiny book picture thing, first of all, it can't be Nicholas because for his picture to be in there, the write of the book would have to know what he looks like on Earth. The royal mom and her people would not know since they did not engineered him, and the skin is probably made by Khivar's forces.

As for the pairing in the book, is it possible that it's supposed to be read vertically? Ancient Chinese is written from top to bottom rather than left to right. So maybe it's actually saying Liz and Max, Tess and someone else, were together? I tend to believe that the book is more of a description of their past rather than actual "destiny." In that case the book would be saying Liz and Max were together in their former life and someone and Tess were together before as their friend/guardian (I am big on Tess as a warrior/guardian of Max and not actual bride theory) and the podesters should enlist their help?

EC2k

OK, My take on this is that the man that Max didn't save was not really haunting him, It was Max's own 'soul' haunting himself. He is feeling guilty over his failure, and creates the ghost of the man in his mind to punish himself.

After all, how could tha man have known about Max saving Liz, about his abilities, about the White Room, and Max's fear of it?

I believe (hope) this represents Max finally laying to rest the ghosts that he has collected and carried since his ordeal. The stating of belief in Liz is his declaration that no matter what he thinks she did, he knows that she will always be there for him. He can at last move foreward again.

WR

I don't know if anyone noticed, but I posted on the last thread about the POV change of Max when he was healing the children. His vision went from normal human vision to blurred peripheral vision as he was weakended. It sort of resembled the POV of the hidden alien that has been watching everyone this season.

I know that this is a stand alone episode, but I also know that sometimes they stick in a few things that cross over into the other episodes. Does anyone think that this is significant?

DG makes the point that Max saved Liz Parker but not him. Max asks how he knows about that. DG tells him, "I know everything in your mind, heart and soul." Ghosts are scary but they are not omniscient. That is why I believe DG was representative of a battle of conscience that Max was having with himself.

Azcat—very funny!

Starbox—interesting comparison between the mating book and the characters. I think the picture of Michael does look like him, but the Isabel picture doesn’t look anything like her! The backwards Liz is a good catch.

Czech please—welcome back! About Max’s powers—he can manipulate molecular structures, so can’t he manipulate the cancer cells into normal cells?

Wishful Thinking—Thanks for the information on types of pediatric cancers. I learn so much visiting this thread!

EC2k—I think your idea about reading the book vertically is a good idea. Could it be that Tess and Michael are siblings? Tess has tried to persuade Michael numerous times when the others wouldn’t listen to her. Like in MTTM, she said “Michael…” but he ignored her.

Your wish is my command :-) - actually it is very interesting that you didnt see season one and you thought it looked like Nikolas and Liz too. I showed the pictures to my husband and gave him a list of everyone it could be and he didnt hesitate to say Nikolas and Liz. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I know at my local mall they have a machine where you stick in a photo and it gives you a computer generated "sketch" that looks like it was drawn - so I can not imagine that they could not have created images that actually LOOKED like Isabel and Micheal. Actually - if you compare the Max and "Liz" picture and the way their hair is shaded - I think they both have dark hair.
I also like the idea that it is pictures of royalty & the idea that you read it vertically. Could it also represent four races? Tess, Nikolas, Max and Liz could be "representatives" of each race?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Anyways,
I got the impression that Liz sensed Max too. If I'm not mistaking, her back was to the window, so there's no way she could've seen him out the corner of her eye.

Although I was a bit shocked by Liz's slight lecture. I found it great. They're such a perfect match for each other. How he always come to her in times of need. No matter what has happened between them and how she always keeps him focused , and ultimately is the the one who steers him towards the right decision. They have such a beautiful relationship, even when they're being "just" friends.

I think Max saying "I believe in you" was ultimately what Zero said, he believes in her, therefore maybe he can believe in a higher power, I also think that at the same time (in so many words) Max was saying that no matter what has happened between them ,he still loves her.

WR,
I think that Max's haunting was a combination of Max's guilt and the man actually haunting him. Maybe that's why the man was able to haunt Max, because of his guilt for not saving the man. The ghost was definitely real. Why? How did the ghost know that Sydney had relasped and been taken to a hospital in Phoenix. And then how he talked to Max in the end about how strong his wife was. I think the reason why he knew about the balance and Max's power is because he was a "ghost," and for some reason ghosts seem to see more and know much more than us living beings.

All & All I thought it was a great episode. Jason Katims is great. I wished we'd seen more of Liz though. Where were her parents??? They weren't home for Thanksgiving either (MITC). I loved the present situation with Maria and Michael, totally funny, though JK could've done a little more research, Maria and Michael weren't together last Christmas. Izzy was pretty funny too. I liked Tess in this episode, thank god she stayed away from Max, but I still have my guard up regarding her. I'm convinced she's not the Suzy homemaker/ devoted bride she'd like everyone to think. Like someone said earlier maybe, there's an evil or something controlling her and she's unaware. This is very, very possible. And I wouldn't totally rule out Lonnie's card playing. Let's say she did try to mind rape Tess in MITC, or so Tess thought. Maybe she used some type of power to gain control of Tess's mind somehow, and maybe that's why Tess was acting so jolly etc and not strange yet., Lonnie would have no reason to gain control at this point, she's just getting more familiar with the territory. She'll show her face etc, when the time is right.

I still don't know what to make of the destiny book. When looking at it again, I find that the picture of Michael is Michael, but the picture who's supposed to be Isabel, looks nothing like her, and to me it doesn't look like Maria either. It looks like no one on the show right now. Though if it did end up being Maria, that would be interesting , considering that on other Message Boards people tend to think that Maria may be half alien. Why I don't know.....

Aldebaran: where in NJ are you? I'm in Bergen County (F.L.) and if there is no party for us (we're sort of the poor relation to NYC parties), then maybe we should start one of our own!

Pieface: All aliens are after the Granolith. Once they have it under their control (or possession might be enough), then it would be easy to conquer Earth.

Tasyfa: LOL your post about Tess being Liz's bridesmaid. After Skin & Bones, I said that Tess must have been her servant and was sent in her place, as her surrogate, to protect her and people laughed at me. Aha..... how times have changed! (Queen Amidala and her handmaids...). BTW, where is your next fanfic? You promised me, you know!

StarKissed: Ava may know what she knows simply because she lived with the Dupes. Nicholas or their protector may have fed them stories that would further their own nefarious plans, and it could have been done either by giving them implanted memories or by word of mouth.

Alexis: You said that history would be different if Liz would have gone to the summit with Max. There wouldn't have been a summit. If they cemented, the report on CW's death would have gone unnoticed, they wouldn't have gone to Copper Summit, the harvest of husks would have been successful, the Skins would have eventually come to Roswell, they would have won that particular battle, there wouldn't have been a summit in NYC... and the rest is history (look up EOTW!). On the other hand, Liz would have had 14 wonderful years with Max and frankly, that's not a bad choice!!!

Reggie: I would like your theory of Liz being the Queen and Tess being the Bride if I believed Tess was genuine. I don't think she is. Whether by her own design or somebody else's, she is impersonating Max's mate to either protect Liz or replace her and maybe with her full knowledge... or not (I'm starting to believe she may not be aware of her status!).

GraceKel: You did not like ARCC. I didn't either (a part of it!), but for slightly different reasons. I loved most of it, specially the fact that everybody "committed" an act of kindness towards somebody else. The part I disliked was the interaction between Max and Liz. They have been apart for so long that they are getting used to being without each other. There was no angst or pain or suffering because of their lack of contact and that bothered me. I'll rather have them mad at each other than just talking sporadically! The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. I hope the next ep has them furthering the interaction a bit or my heart will despair of ever seeing them together again! (and don't say Oh, ye, of little faith... I STILL BELIEVE!!!).

BTW, did you notice when Max came to the outside Church at the end of the ep? The choir sings: Come and behold Him, born the King of Angels.... I know this refers to God's Child and I don't mean any sacrilege by this, but I thought that it was interesting... Max is a king and he was an angel to those kids!

Also, I choose to believe this is a feel-good ep that has no bearing on the actual story of Roswell. Tess was genuinely likeable and I didn't see a Stepford Wife Syndrome there, but your comment was really cute and funny!! On the other hand, you may have a point on her chemical imbalance - not only because of her mood swings but for what I feel is still not a resolved issue: Max being hers!

BTW, regarding the book: Isabel is the Spanish version of Liz, or Elizabeth, and both mean "Consecrated to God".

I studied the pictures in the book and the one in question still looks very much like Michael, Season I's hair's version. No shadows of Nicholas for me.

jjac: Congrats on your 2nd star! I rechecked what Max's tired vision looked like and it wasn't like the invisible alien's. He lost peripheral vision. The alien's looks like he sees through a jelly coated glass (?). Don't you think?

Melodius/Starbox: Regarding the healing of the children and Max receiving flashes from them. I, too, would be concerned of them developing powers in the future if Liz was exactly the same as they are - human (excuse me while I duck as Nancy Jeanne {QFanny} is throwing things at me!). Although they made it a point to have Ava say she is a human who was changed, I think this is the writers' clue to us that there's more to her than meets the eye. If the healing would have been what gave her powers, then the children, Kyle, River Dog, etc. would be walking-weird-power humans. That's not going to happen. So... Liz having powers then, must be due to: her being..... different, the reverse connection, his way of healing her, his desire to make her more like him so she could accept him, and their continuous contact with each other. It is my belief that everytime they kiss, touch or cement (soon, please), she'll change a bit more!

I studied the pictures in the book and the one in question still looks very much like Michael, Season I's hair's version. No shadows of Nicholas for me.
more!

I think you underestimate how Max would have reacted to CW's death coverup. I think they would have still gone. Besides the peace summit was offered to the Dupes and they still would have come to Roswell.

I do agree with the picture being of Michael from S1.

Also, you said the reps of the planets were mad at Max for not cutting the deal, instead of K'var, who presented a no-win situation to Max. I don't think they were truly the planets' reps. They should have seen the offer for what it was: a trap to catch them, get the Granolith and kill them! Even Larek, a so-called friend, did not defend him when his loyalty was required. He (the alien possessing Brody at that time) may not have been Larek for all we know (and this does not preclude the fact that the real Larek may show up in the future and may choose Brody to possess!).

WR: The amazing thing about your opinions on Max, the ghost, etc., is that you haven't even seen the episode yet! And yes, I think some of it was the ghost knowing because he is a spirit and therefore may have access to information we poor mortals don't have, but some of it must have come from Max and the results of the post traumatic syndrome he has been suffering from after the White Room, Liz's abandoning him, his burden of being the king of an entire planet +, etc. (and now I win the run-on sentence contest!) .

Redhawk: your site is very nice! Congratulations. I just added it to my Favorites!

bluecornmoon - YEAH! I am not the only Roswell freak in the county! My husband would have begged to differ on that one! I am in Northvale. Do you think there are others "among us" - Roswell fans, I mean! If there are, speak up please!

So here is a sad little teeny tiny thought about the aliens. My thought borrows from the whole Clan of the Cave Bear (and I guess ST:TNG and the Borg) idea of of a collective memory that passes on to each person at birth. Could such a memory be why the "real" aliens (the Dupes) have memories of Twilo and their former lives that the R4 don't have? Has Ava ever really come out with any "I remember when" type statements (like Tess has constantly) or could everything she knows be attributed to the fact that she lived with the Dupes? Could Tess know what she does of their former lives because she is a Dupe (I know this has been covered, so sorry for the repitition) and would thus have the collective memory? I am just trying to piece together in my brain how the whole Ava/Tess past of the show fits in with Liz (ie Queen/fake, bride/bridesmaid, etc.). If Tess is the decoy, could that be why - of the 4 - she knows of their former life and why Ava seemed so "discardable" by the other Dupes? Could that be why Tess is so persistent in her pursuit of Max (though someone really observant might become suspicious of how persistent she is, I guess, like she is trying too hard).

Oh well, I have to talk to an intern now. Whoopideedoo!

~shanna~

I agree about the lecture. Liz is so strong! She could've been worshipful of how wonderful it was of him, everyone knows she loves him and wants to be with him so much, but she risked his being angry or hurt to tell him the truth. I think she realized that in the end it would be catastrophic for him to go on doing the healing, and while I also agree with her thoughts on God to some extent, my take is that she realized that Max was haunting himself, and that giving into his guilt like this would destroy him. So she stepped in IMMEDIATELY to stop him. Real love. God won't ask one to use their gifts in a way that is detrimental to their personal growth, imho. Therefore it all works together,and Liz can still be my hero.

Yes, I see where you are coming from in regards to the ghost. As Bluecornmoon said, I have not yet seen the ep, and have to rely on the discussion thread, until the writeup is posted at Crashdown.

WR

Thanks Tigereyes & bluecornmoon!

Now, I'm off to work on more Christmas stuff. This shopping and fighting the crowds gets in the way of my Roswell obsession. grr...

I'm sure that wasn't the only reason, but I think it's significant.

I agree with you about reading the book vertically. Who is to say that aliens read left to right the way we do? The way some of their symbols look, reading vertically would make sense.

Liz is particularly good at solving problems. Maybe she/humanity can fix the Royal Four, so whatever caused their failure the first time does not happen again.

Favorites!
*************************

Bluecornmoon,
In MITC at the summit Nicholas said "Max returns the Granilith to us (shock surrounds the table ) No it's no longer on our world, worlds (whatever he said), Yes we've known about it for a long time, No Kivar decided he didn't need to tell you, and yes we know where it is, it's with Max"

I get the impression that the skins or Kivar (whatever race he is) had the Granilith at one time.

The reason why I think the skins know how to work the Granolith is because CW stated in her diary (on silverhandprint.com) that they were stuck on Earth unless they found the Granilith. Also, in WO Courtney told Michael that the only way she would live is if she got to the Granilith.

I know this doesn't prove anything, like you've stated CW and Courtney could've been hoping against hope that when they arrived at the Granilith it would magically heal them or better yet take them home.

But the thing is, the skins already have what they need to make the Granolith work. In WO a rod(crystal) was used to cause the time warp that made all the humans disappear. In EOTW, Max used the same type of rod(crystal) to activate the Granilith, which ultimately takes him back in time. It's very interesting that the rod in WO was used to cause the time warp, and the one in EOTW was used to activate the Granilith to do time travel. There's a connection here, the skins definitely know how to work it. They know it's power, that's why they want it so bad.

I've even come to believe that maybe even the other aliens, might know how to work it. Don't get me wrong Liz is as brainy as they come, and I'm sure her friend Serena was just as smart, but I find it hard to believe that these aliens can create a ship, or whatever, that can travel millions of miles away to another galaxy, can clone human dna and mix it with alien dna and make it work,can possess human bodies from across the universe and the list goes on, but they can't figure out how to work the granilith, but a human can. Humans who are no where near as advanced as they are. I don't know, this could be the story, the irony in it all, but right now I think that the skins and aliens do know how to work the Granilith.

WR: I didn't know you hadn't seen the episode, sorry.

I just happened to see the picture Nemo posted of Isabel coming out of her pod, and after looking at the destiny book again I find that the picture of the girl next to Michael looks like Isabel as a child. I think there's definitely something to Liz's name spelled backwards in the book. That's too much of a coincedience.

I just happened to see the picture Nemo posted of Isabel coming out of her pod, and after looking at the destiny book again I find that the picture of the girl next to Michael looks like Isabel as a child. I think there's definitely something to Liz's name spelled backwards in the book. That's too much of a coincedience.
[/B]

Actually - the Nemo picture is the Tess-O-Vision version of Isabel. The "real" Isabel (or at least the one that max remembered) had short hair. This was discussed on a past thread and I think there is a page on it on Maxcedos site?????
Which brings us to Nemo's pictures - each of the "hand pictures" was of a shapeshifter except the "Isabel" - but of course that was the "tess-version" of Isabel.
Nemo - what do YOU think it means????????????
I am curious as to what your theory is.

BTW - I am pretty sure the "Isabel" picture is of a girl with dark hair - if you look at the shading of Max's hair - it is almost identical to the girl. Of course - if it is supposed to be Liz - that would not mean that she is an alien - after all - the book could be a book of PROPHECY - not an "instruction manual" as the podsters assumed. After all - if it was an instruction manual - seems like the home planet could have put in ENGLISH.
After all - they obviously had contact woth humans to get the DNA and the mom-o-gram spoke english. I dont think the "destiny" book was necessarily intended to be found by the podsters - since they have no memory of "home" - if it was REALLY "instructions" for them it would be written so that they could read it. So what is the book?? Prophecy perhaps? Instructions for the guardians?? Instructions for the rebels???

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I have only a little time now, but wanted to comment on Liz and Max "cementing" their relationship. I'm a Dreamer, but - call me old fashioned - I hope they don't cement their relationship this season. (I'm planning on a long run for this show! ) [Ducks while things get thrown at her !] Now, you all know I adore Liz and Max, and I do hope they get back together as a couple soon, but I also believe that individually (and together) they have a lot to learn and growth to take place, and that cementing may impede this growth. Part of my concern is the supposed ages of the characters. (Role models here - sorry I'm a parent now! ) Regardless of the fact that I believe they are soulmates destined to be together forever, I want to see their relationship grow and mature naturally, and not be forced like so many relationships on TV are. I think the cementing should be a natural result of the evolution of their relationship. As Liz herself said - she was not ready. I hope she sticks to her beliefs! I do want to see them "cement" things at some point, but I think that it will be so much more meaningful if the process or path there is natural and takes its time, and is not forced and rushed just to get ratings! Okay - I know I may be flamed for these thoughts - so let me have it (kindly though), but I just wanted to get this off my chest!

I hope everyone is having a wonderful holiday season, and for those who celebrate Hanukka - have a wonderful first day tomorrow! I'm just relieved to have finally gotten the bulk of my Christmas cards out today!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I just hope I survive that episode when it happens!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Dayneen-I felt the same way! For me it really underscored why Max cannot be with Tess in this life. Tess (who I officially no longer hate) is a good friend and confidant to Max, but she really falls down in the advice department because she basically agrees with all of his decisions. I think that part of the reason Max of the past "made bad decisions" may have been because his closest advisor (his wife) didn't call him on his bonehead moves. Liz has already proven her ability to make him stop and consider his actions before he acts. She's his second chance in so many ways.

DG makes the point that Max saved Liz Parker but not him. Max asks how he knows about that. DG tells him, "I know everything in your mind, heart and soul." Ghosts are scary but they are not omniscient. That is why I believe DG was representative of a battle of conscience that Max was having with himself.[/B]There's a very good discussion of this over on the R&I thread at http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/003125-4.html#93

RE: ARCC
1)Max enters the "church area" for midnight services on the line, "Born the King of Angels" in the carol O Come All Ye Faithful. NOT subtle!
2)I was so excited--when Max is saying goodbye to the ghost outside the ghost's house, in the background behind Max's head is the window of another house, which is strung with blinking Xmas lights and is diamond-shaped! Did anyone else see that? I admit, I didn't notice it till the <ahem> 7th time I watched the epp
3)On the general discussion thread part 2 (which was actually worth reading, BTW), someone mentioned that it took Max a lot more effort to heal those kids than it had seemed to take to heal Liz or Kyle. I can actually explain that, i think. Both Liz & Kyle werre injured by a gunshot wound. Relatively speaking, it's a simple repair job--plug the hole and sew the tissues back together. The only reason gunshot wounds are ever fatal is b/c of the time factor involved in knitting the tissues together when using normal human means. With Max's healing, time obviously isn't an issue. However, cancer is very different. Did you notice how he passed his hand over Sydney's torso before settling it on her tummy? In order to heal the cancer, Max has to work on a cellular level, and at least in Sydney's case (we don't know if the other children had bone marrow or other forms of cancer), the cancer is spread out over a very wide area. We have what, 206 bones in our bodies, and every single one would be affected. Also, Max would have two options, really: to transform the cancerous cells back into normal, healthy cells, or to destroy the cancerous cells and replace them with healthy cells. To oversimplify, cancerous cells are basically cells which are reproducing and growing at an unchecked rate, to the point where they ignore all other cell functions in favour of reproduction. So Max would have to reprogram them, or replace them, either of which is a monumental task. And he did this for FIVE children, who presumably were all different, and so needed slightly different types of healing from him. It just boggles the mind, how complicated it is compared to a simple gunshot wound!
4)The house number of the ghost's house was 131. Does that mean anything to anyone? The only thing I can think of is that it adds up to 5. I think it's relevant somehow, though, b/c they very carefully focussed on it once the ghost had faded away.

Whew! And that doesn't even cover the stuff I was thinking of before ARCC aired!

bluecornmoon thx for pinpointing where I originally mentioned the lifebonds; I wasn't 100% sure where it was! And, re: the fanfic--I'm working on it! My new one has to do with the granolith, actually. I should have time to finish it over the holidays--I'll be visiting my parents, so I won't be able to spend much time online.

Hopefully I'll be caught up enough soon to contribute some more ideas. Till then, keep up the great thinking!

It was really very interesting to read 7 different synopsis of the ep. Everyone sees it a little differently.

I hope that we will start to see more Max and Liz & Maria and Michael interaction. The sci-fi stuff is fun, but for me the bases for Roswell is the interaction between the aliens and the humans and the relationships that they have formed.

'Night all!

I totaly agree with those of you who are leaning to the maturity aspect of Liz's importance to not only Max, but to the other characters as well. She is the self proclaimed 'nerd' and the more serious of the group. It is this aspect of her personality that is necessary to Max and to the other podster's. Michael is too quick to act upon impulse, leaving thinking behind. Iz, as we have seen by her reaction to the Vilandra story, is somewhat unsure of herself as human or alien. Tess is far too 'whatever you say Max'. Liz is that stability factor - balance - the fifth element.

I had some thoughts on Tess and the Tess/Lonnie switch, but I am going to wait for the next ep or two before I put that out. There is something going on there. Courtney made the comment that no one was looking for Tess. Lonnie's comment to Ava about what she was doing there still living and breathing and in the car. Because she (Lonnie) loved her??? Lonnie has some cards up her sleave - is Tess one of those cards?? Is Ava the human/alien and Tess the dupe?? Just some thoughts.

I also do not like the idea of Liz and Max cemmenting their relationship too soon. (we want season three) I have seen that be the end of the 'chemistry' in too many shows. They need time to discover themselves and their powers and to develop the deep friendship that they are going to need in the future.

Gotta get some sleep -
Happy Holidays to all
TTFN

4everyoung

It was you........Max

I enjoyed this last episode...I found the healings to be reminiscent of this meditation group I was involved in where we did a lot of "energy" work with chakras. I thought it was interesting that when Max was healing the kiddies, he put his hand on their crown chakra and the chakra located around the solar plexis -- the power center.

To me that showed that although he may not believe in God, he obviously believes in a higher power. I was taught that the crown chakra symbolizes a connection to the universe, to a higher power, sending energy through it facilitates healing.

Of course, I can be way off here and it is not so, uh, etherial. :angle:

m-14

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
**************************************

Starbox,
I think you have something here! I never thought about the book like this, but you're right why wouldn't the home planet put the supposed destiny book in English (the podsters are on Earth in America), so the podsters would have no problem reading it and understanding their destinies. The book does seem to fit more with some type of ancient prophecy, with it being in another language.

I don't think Max & Liz will cement this season. In EOTW, we saw how simple and easy Max & Liz cemented,etc. I think now that Liz has set this "change" into motion, it's going to be much more complicated for she and Max to get back together(which is ok, love isn't easy). Like GC said, "if it isn't complicated, he probably isn't a soul mate." However, I do want them to remain close (more moments like MITC, RCC etc). I wouldn't want them seriously seeing other people while trying to find their way back to each other either. What they have is special and shouldn't be tainted by other love interests or storylines that are geared strictly towards obtaining more ratings. Their love story should, and I'm sure will take time to tell: therefore, I believe the cementing, Liz's true destiny (as the real Queen or whatever) won't be discovered until possibly a couple of seasons from now, maybe even longer. Besides there are other people that can cement, Michael and Maria, Izzy and Grant, Tess & Kyle, Valenti and Amy, the parents could probably use a little cementing too.

Zero! Thank you! I just have to say that I agree totally with you. "Cementing" is not something to be entered into lightly, or just because your hormones are raging, or even just because you're in love with someone. You have to be sure you're in a relationship where your vulnerability will be valued and treasured. Rant over. I totally think Max and Liz are right for each other, and should darn well cement, but they need to be QUITE sure that they're ready. Remember what Liz said in EOTW?

One of the things I love most about the Liz character is her strength. She supports Max always, but she's not afraid to step forward and "bring him down to Earth" when she knows it's for his own good. She definitely serves as half of the yin/yang balance. And, I love the fact that she doesn’t whine about her sacrifices. Remember when she was telling Maria about Future Max? She did so without sounding like a martyr! I thank Jason Katims for giving us a character like this one (and, of course, Max and the others)!

Zero, you're absolutely correct in your summary (it seems to be reflected in the show over and over again): TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!

Happy yule, y'all!

OK, soap box gone!

Starbox—you are so right about there being more romantic moments than sex. How more romantic can you get then Max saying “I just want to keep you warm!” I would rather hear that then “Come on, baby, let’s cement!”

Aldebaran—I am also a proponent of waiting until marriage. You are so right that the emotional affect of having sex is not mentioned enough. I am currently working on a book about this very subject! It is such a big issue yet many people let young adults go into this decision without any information (about the emotional ramifications!).

StarBox - I couldn't agree with you more! Excellent post! The bond between Liz and Max is special and sacred (if you believe all our wonderful theories), and I hope the writers have the where-with-all to pull this evolving relationship off without making it just another typical WB coupling. I also agree that if they bring in other "attractions" for Liz or Max, it will cheapen the special connection they have!

I just finished reading everyone elses' posts - and I want to THANK YOU ALL for the wonderful support! I love this thread! Everyone is so positive - even when we disagree - and I really appreciate that! AND reg99 - I think together Max and Liz are a force to reckon with in MANY ways!

Have a great day! I'm off to the Nutcraker at PNB with my kids! Should be fabulous - and the sun is shining! What more could you ask for!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

On a second note :steps up to her soapbox:, I totally respect those of you who believe people should wait for sex, especially teens, who are a tumultuous mix of emotions and hormones without the wisdom and experience (yeah, that's kind of a generalization of teens, sorry if I offended anyone, again, there are definate exceptions to this rule). But at the same time, speaking for the more mature teens (I'm not a teen, but just speaking up for them ), waiting for sex until marriage doesn't necessarily equal a great relationship, either. I think if you've got the brains, the protection, and the heart, and you *feel* its right for you, and can say you can be with someone with no massive regrets, then go for it. Follow your heart, learn from the experience, and grow. This may be a really bad analogy, and in no way do I mean to trivialize it, but waiting for sex until marriage is kind of like buying a pair of shoes without trying them on first. You don't know if they'll fit you comfortably, how long they'll last, or even if you may grow them out. I believe in monagamy, definately, but I also believe that waiting until marriage is a bit archaic in this day and age. I think people should be allowed to enjoy the emotions and motions *ahem* their bodies can do, as long as their heart and mind are mature enough to understand what's going on, and can learn from it. As for M&L's characters, from the past 2 seasons it seems like they have maturity abound, love abound, and responsibility. So when it does happen, and if they're still in high school when it happens, more power to them, as long as the WB shows it in a mature and responsible manner.

*steps down from soapbox*

Happy Holidays, btw!!

Meg

On a second note :steps up to her soapbox:, I totally respect those of you who believe people should wait for sex, especially teens, who are a tumultuous mix of emotions and hormones without the wisdom and experience (yeah, that's kind of a generalization of teens, sorry if I offended anyone, again, there are definate exceptions to this rule). But at the same time, speaking for the more mature teens (I'm not a teen, but just speaking up for them ), waiting for sex until marriage doesn't necessarily equal a great relationship, either. I think if you've got the brains, the protection, and the heart, and you *feel* its right for you, and can say you can be with someone with no massive regrets, then go for it. Follow your heart, learn from the experience, and grow. This may be a really bad analogy, and in no way do I mean to trivialize it, but waiting for sex until marriage is kind of like buying a pair of shoes without trying them on first. You don't know if they'll fit you comfortably, how long they'll last, or even if you may grow them out. I believe in monagamy, definately, but I also believe that waiting until marriage is a bit archaic in this day and age. I think people should be allowed to enjoy the emotions and motions *ahem* their bodies can do, as long as their heart and mind are mature enough to understand what's going on, and can learn from it. As for M&L's characters, from the past 2 seasons it seems like they have maturity abound, love abound, and responsibility. So when it does happen, and if they're still in high school when it happens, more power to them, as long as the WB shows it in a mature and responsible manner.

*steps down from soapbox*

Happy Holidays, btw!!

Meg
I agree with Megami on this one. Sex before marriage is essential, but not to be entered into lightly. I also want to see the Max and Liz relationship move to that next step, but not right now. I'm not ready and the characters are not either. I applaud JK for taken this stance and providing another role model for teenage girls in Liz and Maria. Although, I think that Maria would give it up very easily to Michael if he played his cards right. The only thing keeping them apart is Michael. If "Moonlighting" was able to keep the sexual tension going for the good part of that show, then JT and team should be able to play this story element out for quite a while as well. All the posters for this topic seem to be female, what are the guys out there thinking about this?

Umm.. WOW! I never noticed that!!

I love this theory! And it makes sense! Just one more reason why we should be questioning T about this mysterious book!

Michael, Liz,
Isabel, Max.

Especially after seeing Isabel with curly hair in ARCC... What do you think!

To make this tie in to the topic—I think Liz’s knowledge of intimacy as an important sacred thing shows just how mature and strong she is!

Meg—my only concern is that teens are truly informed what emotional affect sexual intercourse has on a person. Even Liz’s mom says that “once you enter that world…sexual intimacy…things change” (paraphrasing loosely). Most teens are told of the physical affects of sex (pregnancy, STD’s, AIDS, etc) but rarely are they shown what happens emotionally.

I think JK was brilliant when describing what happens to Max and Liz when “they make love” (realize that he didn’t say had sex—big difference!) Cementing is a perfect way to put it! When we give ourselves to someone we create an unbreakable bond. Should we do this with just anybody? No way!!! Now if you were a teenager and you gave yourself to a guy (not having a marriage commitment from him) and he leaves you then the bond that is created is never resolved. There is always a piece of you with that person. If this person turns out to be not-so-nice than a teenager will most likely feel stupid for giving of themselves to someone that is not worthy of that act of intimacy.

On the point of trying on a new pair of shoes—most teenage girls, specifically, spend more time picking out shoes than they do picking a guy they should date, let alone have sex with!! I don’t think they really analyze the other persons behavior (is this person treating me with respect, honor, love? How are these feelings manifested in his behavior?) Teenagers need to realize that they can be in a relationship with out it being physical.

Liz is a strong character and although she is swept into the whole “it just feels right” (SH) bit, she realizes afterwards that just because two people have genuine feelings for each other, that doesn’t mean that it is right to have sex!

To reiterate Aldebaran there are many ways to show love besides intercourse. Here are some examples in Roswell (comes from Dreamers list: Why we and :

1) Because Max thought of telling her 1,000 times (i.e. wanting to communicate with her)
2) Because in Max’s eyes, Liz was beautiful (and he shared that with her by making the connection go the other way).
3) Because now Max’s life was in Liz’s hands now (he trusted her).
4) Because he couldn’t just let her die (concern)
5) Because Liz is different (he sees that she is special)
6) Because Max risked everything because “It was you.”
7) Because it wasn’t safe, but Liz didn’t care. (concern for her safety, hurting her)
8) Because Liz wasn’t concerned about her future. (Liz’s concern for Max)
9) Because Max came out from behind the tree for Liz. (he comes to her)
10) Because Max never forgets to thank her. “Thank you, Liz.” (he appreciates her)
11) Because “it was only natural.” (he understands her and comforts her)
12) Because it was torture for Max to stay away from Liz.
13) Because Liz wasn’t catching up on athletic events. (same as #12)
14) Because Max was the one person Liz really wanted to talk to when GC was dying. (communication)
15) Because Max was concerned enough to go to the hospital (concern)
16) Because Max would do it all over again if he needed to.
17) Because Max was feeling depressed, sorry for himself and angry at the world because he had to stay away from Liz.
18) Because first of all, nothing about Liz is stupid. (of course not and Max is the first one to say it!)
19) Because Max always wants to keep her warm. (concern/caring)
20) Because if anything happened to Max, Liz couldn’t live with that.
21) Because when Liz saw Max in the car, it was like she couldn’t breathe, you know? (worry)
22) Because they do things when they feel a certain way about each other. (willingness to work as a team)
23) Because what Max is afraid of isn’t that they try this and it works out badly, but that they try this and it works out really well. (concern)
24) Because Max felt everything he knew he would feel. (true love)
25) Because Max couldn’t bear to hurt Liz. (concern/love)
26) Because when Max saw Valenti taking Liz away like that it really hit home for him. (concern/caring)
27) Because knowing Max hasn’t screwed up her life—it’s just the opposite! (love)
28) Because no matter what they go through it’s worth it because they’re together
29) Because Liz’s fear ran deeper. (worry)
30) Because Liz could never let Max down. (not wanting to let him down)
31) Because Liz made Max forget that anything else existed.
32) Because Liz didn’t mean to have doubts. (was really worried)
33) Because it is the only real thing Liz has ever felt. (real love)
34) Because Max has a really good lab partner: she’s really good in science (Max knows her talents)
35) Because Max made Liz a part of this. (included her because she is important to him)
36) Because Max wanted them to slow down not screech to a halt. (misses her)
37) Because Max can’t stop thinking about Liz.
38) Because it’s all just magic when he thinks of her.
39) Because when he’s not with her he goes crazy
40) Because Max didn’t want to ruin her night. (concern/doesn’t want to hurt her)
41) Because Max obviously feels the same way.
42) Because a simple shoulder squeeze means so much. (very small gesture to show you care)
43) Because Max didn’t want to use Liz. (THIS IS A BIG ONE!)
44) Because Max is glowing on the inside—his toes, his heart.
45) Because Max could never do anything to hurt her.
46) Because Liz was cradled in Max’s arms when they woke up in the desert.
47) Because Max only knew what he was hoping for.
48) Because Max looks at Liz and knows that she’s the one he’s supposed to be with. He’s always known it.
49) Because Liz is “The One.” The only one.
50) Because Max could never be with anyone else.
51) Because she went on faith—a lot of it. (trust)
52) Because Max follows Liz when she’s upset (TLV and WO) (concern/compassion)
53) Because Max didn’t want her to go into there alone. (worry)
54) Because a kiss on the forehead means so much!
55) Because Max wouldn’t leave without her. (risk for her safety)
56) Because saving Liz that day was the day his life began.
57) Because “It was you, Liz, the thought of you,” that kept Max alive.
58) Because Max loves the touch of her skin, her hair that’s so soft.
59) Because of the way her eyes look into his.
60) Because Max WOULD do something that cheesy.
61) Because it’s Liz he trusts, Liz he has faith in.
62) Because Liz was willing to give up Max for the sake of his race! (sacrifice)
63) Because Max and Liz were always open and honest with each other.
64) Because even though he’s hurt, Max would rather have Kyle taking care of Liz.
65) Because even though he was hurt, Max listened to what Liz said about the Granilith
66) Because Liz saved Max.
67) Because he misses their friendship
68) Because when Max needed a friend, he went to Liz.
69) Because Liz always has a solution and Max listens to her. (for you RBIer’s)
70) Because Liz senses when Max is there.

Bye for now!

OK, so I had a thought, I don't know if it's been said, I didn't read the whole thread.. or well, any of it... but anyway...

You know how Liz said to Max that he can't go around healing everyone, and maybe it was someone's plan that these kids have cancer and die (at which point I was like, yes, no more healing Max, didn't you learn what a horrible thing it was when you healed Li... ooops, wrong thread for that, ahem, anyway...).

Liz said he was going against THE PLAN... Does this point to more evidence that Liz's shoooting WASN'T an accident?

Anyway, I'm sure you guys have beaten that to death, but in case you hadn't, I thought I'd throw it out there with all my other theories (time travel and whatnot, you guys DO remember me, right??) that prove Liz's shooting wasn't an accident...

--KATE

Liz said he was going against THE PLAN... Does this point to more evidence that Liz's shoooting WASN'T an accident?

Anyway, I'm sure you guys have beaten that to death, but in case you hadn't, I thought I'd throw it out there with all my other theories (time travel and whatnot, you guys DO remember me, right??) that prove Liz's shooting wasn't an accident...

--KATE

Hey Kate

I'm very glad you've once again braved the Liz Mythologist thread with your insight

I certainly believe, as I'm sure many other Liz Mythologists do, that Liz getting shot wasn't an accident (and yes, we have rather beaten that subject to death ). However, with it's relation to ARCC, I think you're the first to bring it up (correct me if I'm wrong Mythologists, I do need to read this thread more thorougly though). Excellent catch!

Although which was the "higher power" at work if Liz's shooting *wasn't* an accident? With all the "God" debate going around post-ARCC, it makes one wonder. "God" (to me) is often a metaphor for Max's alien species.... "God" is the one who created this great PLAN which Liz seems to elude to in ARCC. Yet "God" is quite possibly the Twilonians? ... The Twilonian plan = Liz getting shot, Max healing her hence starting the chain of events which is still unravelling until today?

The Alien Book
Am I the only one who seems to believe this book is the *only one* of it's kind? It really didn't seem like the Dupes had one. Hence, the book seemed to ONLY reference the RosRoyals. Which I suppose isn't a stretch to believe. It only would accentuate the Rospodsters importance / singularity yet again. However, one would have thought (if it were the only one of it's existance) that the book would have at least eluded to the Dupes (and it might via currently unreadable alien text)... however the pictures are accurate seemingly to the hair styles the podsters had at the time of the book's revelation (convenient). And not a single picture of the Dupes?? Or are we to presume the Dupes looked exactly as the podsters did when the book was revealed (not very likely )?

btw, I also never noticed the backwards "Liz" in the pic above the (supposed) Isabel. Very interesting.

I'll stop my ranting now

Melodious

Melodious

Hmm, I really like this theory After Liz's speech I thought that while, yes, Max can't go around healing everyone, maybe healing the children was part of the plan... to initiate Max and Liz's reunion!

Since you brought this subject up I will weigh in with my opinion. I happen to think that the SEXUAL HEALING EPPY with the ALMOST CEMENTING---was FAR BETTER than people actually CEMENTING on other shows LOL!!! It was much more erotic and captivating LOL!!!! So this is quite enough for me and considering how young they are well....but....on the other hand, they are not exactly what I would call typical teenagers--facing life and death situations every day makes their circumstances somewhat different and I would hate to think that these two people had died and had never gone to heaven first, so I guess I would just say it would depend on the circumstances LOL, does that make sense?

Alexis - amazing list!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

This kind of teasing works just fine with me.
Another new animation:
Crazy Crashdown Kiss

Pics courtesy of the DDD, Roswell Screen Grab Galleries, & the crashdown.
______ www.geocities.com/redhawksroswell

I also wanted to congratulate Alexis and the "becauses'". There is a question on THE WB site asking what we want for Christmas and one of the choices as for Max and Liz to reunite and why. So far the Max and Liz response is in the lead with 80% of the vote.
I think that Alexis should post her "because" response because it explains just why the Max and Liz relationship is special.

So everyone GO VOTE and maybe, just maybe TPTB will listen!

Aldebaran (I've been reading about your namesake in the Bull, next to Orion). Tenafly is halfway between your house and mine. Friendly's when you have time?

You said you hoped Katims used the collective memories notion written about in the books. His last interview, still posted at the wb.com site, says that he only read and took from the first book. The rest is his and his writers' ideas only! As for the Cave of the Clan Bear, they received tribe ancestral memories in exchange for intelligence. Personally, I'll rather find out things by myself, don't you think?

StarBox - your little project is getting there. It's been slow because of work and Christmas commitments!... but it's getting there!!

Dayneen - when Nicholas says "Max returns the Granolith to us", I don't think he means that he literally had it in his possession, ever. He is just seeking his right of ownership as the conqueror! It seems to me that the Granolith was always in the Royals' hands and that's why Mom send it with Max! (Or the *G* "decided" to follow him and/or had Max follow It to Earth! K'var wants it as the symbol of power and object of reverence that would, by default, give him the admiration and loyalty that he needs from the people in his planet.

BTW, yes, the "rod" was a crystal (more like a thick neon light), and the tube FMax inserted in the Granolith was also something that appeared to be a quarz crystal rod, but because both look like they are similar it doesn't mean they are equal. There are crystals and there are crystals and there are crystals. Because you know of one, it doesn't necessarily mean you know of the other. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one! And as for Liz being "inferior" to Twilonians in terms of intelligence (thus infering that if they didn't get the Granolith to work, why would Liz do it), well... again, it's not a matter of synopsis and neurons. It's more a matter of what or whom does the Granolith respond to. It will answer to her essence, to the fact that she is. Period. Since there is only one Granolith, and they can't make another one, I'll assume it was found in one of their travels (maybe, maybe in Twilo itself), hence their reverence and awe. Even superior Twilonians are not as smart as the creators of the *G*. They must have been a far superior civilization than Max's, so not even they can make it work. I think it works on its own, when it feels it's needed. So, even if Liz's IQ is not 250+, it's who she is, the balance that she brings to whatever equation, her DNA, that will make the *G* awaken, respond and work. Also, I have great hopes that the pink rod will call on to her (maybe it's inside her orb?).

Megami - I would love to answer your post but I'm afraid it'll became a sermon from a parent to a teenager, so I'll try to keep it brief. I understand what you mean, and as I tell my teenage daughter, the love you feel at 16 is real and wonderful. However, at that age, we only think about his long eyelashes and how well he fills that leather jacket! Not about how he treats his sisters and mother (because that's how he'll treat you 6 months down the road), or how responsible he is or why is he pushing you to do something that you may not be ready to do. Believe me, as most posters here are women, they'll confirm this. Sex without love and commitment will leave you wanting. Mostly, it's to satisfy the other gender, and no matter what anybody proclaims, it will leave a bad taste in your mouth. I see it not hundreds but thousands of times in the girls that we try to help at work. And I promise you, I guarantee... if you wait for the right person, for one that loves you as much (and preferably more) than you love them, then you may not have experience but you'll have a feeling of self-respect that's incomparable (and relief, let's not forget relief!). So... at least from this one, I hope Max and Liz cement in the mental, spiritual and soul ways they already have. As for the physical cementing, let's hope they do it when they are both mature enough to enjoy it to the fullest!

So, cementing? I read a brief transcript of Katims chat, and did not see any mention of Max and Liz making love. But then, I am notoriously bad for missing important things from posts, right Mel?

This is great, all these new theories, and ideas. Trouble is, I am getting less and less time to cope with it all. Still, I start a new Job on the 2cnd Jan. I leave the world of Freelancing to take a position with an up and coming company, on the ground floor, so to speak. This *MAY* involve occaisional business trips to Orlando and LA. I'll keep my company going, maybe do Web Work (I'm a Software Consultant) Anyway, with less paperwork [Tax, VAT, NI, blah blah blah ] to do, it should mean more free time).

I would like to take this opportunity to wish you all a *VERY* Merry Christmas, or whatever Greetings of the Season you celebrate, and a Happy and Prosperous New Year.

A Big thank you to Zero for the excellant introduction to this topic. Have you talked to any publishers yet?

And a Very special Thank You, and Hugs to QFanny and Shapeshifter , for their extraordinary kindness to a relative stranger.

Lots of Love peeps!
WR

Thanks, Zero, this is exactly what how I understood Liz. One, she sees that Max is driving himself nearly insane (as JB said on his KTLA interview) with guilt and has to make him realize that he cannot heal everyone. Two, there was no hypocrisy in her statement (i.e. ok to heal her, but not others). She was the one who gave the "plan" of healing Sydney to Max in the first place. In Destiny, Liz told Max that it would have been better for him if he had never healed her to begin with.

Because of Liz' deep love and understanding of Max, she is trying to give him another perspective outside of himself to help him alleviate his guilt and restore his mental (and perhaps physical) health.

WR—congratulations on the new job!

I agree with Zero and how she interpreted Liz’s statements to Max about healing everyone. He can’t. He has his limitations as we saw from his loss of powers.

I will never *bump* again.
I will never *bump* again.
I will never *bump* again.
I will never *bump* again.
I will never ....

I agree that Liz was not 'lecturing' Max or being hypocritical with the 'you are not god' speech. She was just reminding him of something he himself said in Leaving Normal. He is not god, therefore there is a limit to his powers and his ability to control things around him. I think there is a reason Max went to Liz with this particular problem. He knows that she is the one he can rely on to give him the appropriate advice in this type of situation.

This episode just reinforced the importance of Liz for me. Max needs her to keep in touch with his human side and I think the human side will be crucial in defeating their enemies. Why else did their people recreate them as human beings and send them to earth? There has to be something about human DNA, the human brain or human emotions, including the ability to love someone else selflessly, that is important to the alien mythology. Liz represents all of these elements in this story.

Why isn't it letting us delete our own posts like we used to?

And yet another new animation:
Crazy School Kiss

Pics courtesy of the DDD and the Crashdown.

Anyway, off to home! See you in 3 days.

I will never *bump* again.
I will never *bump* again.
I will never *bump* again.
I will never *bump* again.
I will never ....
megageekgirl, imagine here an audio clip in a deep, voice (like a hashish-induced hallucination from 1972 similar to Max's Ghost) intoning: "You are forgiven, my child. Go, and sin no more."

Thanks, Redhawk! I am remembering a conversation between Pooh & Piglet in which one of them erroneously takes credit for inspiring a song--I think it's the "more it snows, tiddly pom" song...I am hoping my picture inspired your awesome animation of the Crazy Kiss--but i suspect you would have already had to have had it made.

Ok bluecornmoon, I agree to disagree. However I do agree with your point about the crystals. I thought about this after I'd posted my first response on the Granilith. I think that it might be several different types of crystals from their planet that does different things.

Zero,
Totally agree with you about Liz's comments to Max about him healing all of the kids in ARCC. There was definitely nothing hiprocritical in what she said. Not only is Max not God and can't save everyone, but he also has to be careful for he and the other podsters safety. Even though the special unit was destroyed, they still have enemies out there, enemies besides the skins who would know what the silver hand print means if they saw it or heard about it. Even though the healing took place in Phoenix, there still might be some consequences for healing all those kids. There still might be a way for possibly new enemies to find out where they are. Enemies that are stronger and more deadly than the skins.

Anyways I'd better cut out for the evening. You all have a wonderful Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanza, or which ever holiday you celebrate, and if I don't check in before the New Year, have a great one!!!

As a guy, I find it unsettling, and a bit embarrassing. I would never be drooling over the possibility of Max and Liz "making". (Any Latin scholars here? It isn't Anglo-Saxon! ) Especially drooling so "out loud"! It's like you gals are reading "Busty Biker Babes" out loud, and commenting favorably on the pictures.

Furthermore, and maybe it's just me, but I think more highly of Liz and Marie, knowing that they are virgins. Since they are heroines of this story, thinking well of them (and the others) is important to my enjoyment of the show. OK, I'm seriously old-fashoned; so shoot me.

And no, I did not stop watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer when she made with Angel. I won't say, "But that was different", of course. On BVS, though, sex did not take over the show.

Sorry, feeling goofy tonight.

Actually, you're probably right. In fact, if this service was fairly early in the evening, the CrashDown might still be open. It seems right that Liz's folks would take over the place, so she could go to the service.

Restaurants, and other services, know no holidays. I'll be working New Year's Day, and would have been working Christmas except we decided to work the 24th instead. I haul dirty laundry from a VA Hospital to the laundry, and clean laundry back again, six days a week.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Melodious
oh my gosh. i have not noticed that at all. you people are so sharp. that definitely looks like it says twilo and liz backwards. the image could definitely pass for liz. tess' image still looks like tess you can't even try to make it look like iz unless you curl her hair.

just my cents.

redhawk... that's an awesome picture. forgive me... what episode did those come from?

shapeshifter... that's a great pix of liz and max. you guys are just too talented.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, HAPPY HANUKKAH TO ALL. MAY YOU ALL HAVE A SAFE AND HAPPY HOLIDAY!!!

All4 - it is the alternate ending to Leaving Normal - the actual ending shows a variaton on the "orb" symbol as well. Redhawk - can you PM me the link again??? I was a bad girl and lost it :-(
Melodious - it does look a little Twilo-esque in the book. Hmmmmmm - it would thrill me if they named the planet Twilo as an homage to us fans.
BlueCornMoon - You are my HERO - and I am forever endebted to you for doing that project for me - you never PM'd me to tell me if you have a DVD player. :-)
Merry Christmas & happy Haunakah to all :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I've been wanting to make this manip for awhile and finally did it tonight. Hope y'all like it

If I don't make it back in here over the weekend, I just wanted to wish everyone on my favorite thread Happy Holidays!!

Melodious

cementing
One of the reasons why I like Roswell so much is because it doesn't have to resort to sex to establish intimacy between the characters. I would be very disappointed if Max and Liz (or anyone else) cemented. It would ebb their whole storyline.

Liz speech to Maria about time being precious. Aside from the obvious, does anyone think that Liz was thinking about the world still possibly coming to an end in 14 years and that the time she had spent with Max was really over and that she regrets leaving him at the podchamber? (How do you like that sentence structure ) Of course, she also knows about time travel now so who knows what she is thinking. I still think Liz not telling Max about what she knows about the granolith is dangerous to everyone concerned. I think it is better if he at least knows what she knows so he will know why in the heck he's protecting it. Right now all he knows is it is dangerous in the wrong hands and what Nicholas has told him and the other dons at the summit.

pieface

I copied these pages and flipped them, enlarged them, turned them upside down and all manner of wierd things trying to see if I could make out anything. I couldn't, but will study it some more.

But what's going to keep them apart after the whole Liz/Kyle/Future Max obstacle is out of the way (assuming it ever is)? Is there going to be an alien reason due to LIz's importance for them not to cement until marriage? Because Max doesn't have any religious beliefs that are contrary to premarital sex and if even the End of the World can't keep them apart for long, what's going to stop them this time?

My thoughts on M/L cementing: As much as the Dreamer in me wants it to happen, the sensible side says to wait. Not only are there the physical downsides, but the emotional ones too. As far as I can see, neither are particularly ready for such a big commitment, no matter how much they both want it. Max and Liz both have a lot to learn about each other and themselves before the positive effects outweigh the negative in cementing.

My only hope is that the writers don't give into more of The WB's pressure to "sex-up" the show, and make the characters grow-up faster than they should. We want a show with role models, people to look up too.....not people we feel sorry for on a regular basis.

Happy holidays everyone, if I don't post again before Monday!

Anne

The dedication and skill of all you investigators continues to impress me. There ought to be something like a GraceKel Award.

BTW (speaking of upside-down weird things) did anyone notice the trombone? No wonder mine takes a lot of coaxing to make music -- apparently I've been holding it wrong all these years.

"Where's Liz?"

What if Liz is from an ancient alien civilization? People have always suspected that the Maya or the Aztec were not from around here. Liz's family could be the remaining members of this dwindling race. Atlantis was also suspected to be the city of a since past race, if it even existed. Maybe not everyone died when it sank?

Just some random thoughts.

Anne

Thread 23 will be known, forevermore, as the "to cement or not to cement - that's the question!"

Shaiwon72: The dragon has appeared in Liz's window in every episode since Skin & Bones! Check it out!

Nermal: What'll stop Max and Liz from cementing after the truth comes out? Since I have developed a mean streak, I thought maybe: K'var will take over Liz's body? Maybe Zan will come into the Crashdown one day, see Liz, fall in love with her and fight with Max for her? They'll find out that the Granolith will start spewing out information, through Liz, only and IF she is a virgin? Are you sure you want to hear more? Katims will surely have more, and meaner, ideas than mine!!

I wanted to thank all of you for the hours of enjoyment that I get out of reading this thread and the incredible brains that maintain it! You are all wonderful and you have made my enjoyment of Roswell even better, if possible! I wish for you the Merriest of Christmas, Happy Chanukah, Happy Kwanza or Happy ___ what you believe in! May 2001 be full of joy, love, health, safety, prosperity, peace and may you enjoy it surrounded by those you love!!

You, too!
Hmmmm....

If The Granolyth is some sort of object of veneration, does it have a holiday of its own? Happy Granolyth Day?

pieface

Hi pieface

It's nice to see you!

I don't think Liz has regretted any decision she's made except maybe writing her journal because she was not prepared to face the consequences in Missing. But this did not stop her from continuing to write.

I am slowly forming the opinion that Liz is the granolith, if you will. If Liz was the granolith, it would explain why Max knew she was special from the very beginning. And it is Liz that has always solved the podsters problems. It's Liz that knows what to do, and her judgements are instinctively followed by all the podsters. It's Liz's opinions that seem to give Max direction. And in a moment of conflict as to what to do, Liz seems to have the final say.

If the granolith is so important, the podsters should have some sort of instinct to protect it. Just like Max knew Liz was special and saved her from dying, one or all of the podsters should have an instinct to protect the pod chamber. I am not saying that had to know about the granolith, but there should be some internal knowledge of the stepping stone.

I think that Max will find out about the granolith and Liz/Kyle/FM triangle. But I think it will happen when Nicolaus mind rapes Liz. And Nicolaus uses the information to torment Max somehow. Perhaps Nicolaus will realize that Liz is the granolith, and that the object in the pod chamber and Liz are compatable with one another somehow.

Thanks shaiwon72! It is from season one episode "Crazy".

Starbox & all4luv - the address for the Leaving Normal alternate ending animation is: http://linssen.webspace.dellnet.com/pics/LNdfend.gif

Melodious - cool pic! Isn't this thread inspiring?!

And yet another new animation:
Hope I'm not driving you crazy.
Crazy Jeep Kiss

Pics courtesy of the DDD, the Crashdown, and the WB.

I hope all of you have a wonderful Christmas and a happy holiday. Thank you for making Roswell even more enjoyable!

OR are you saying Liz does in fact have all the knowledge in her? If this is the case and she does not impart what she knows to the podsters, then all knowledge of the homeworld dies with her. Max really needs to protect her.

From the beginning - kindergarten - Max knew he was connected to Liz on some level. There was no hesitation when Liz got shot - Max instinctively knew he had to protect/save Liz. Liz was connected to the granolith, the granolith he has just discovered he has been entrusted with protecting. The granolith is a time machine. The granolith contains the collective consciousness of the people of Twilo - the fount of all knowledge. Right now Liz is afraid of what she knows about the future and is not sharing that with Max. I feel she needs to share what she knows with Max and soon. Then they will go to see the granolith together. Liz has not seen it as yet. Perhaps the granolith will light up or something-Liz will feel a strong connection to it. Time is of the essense! Seeing that Nicholas did see Liz at his house in Copper Summit and then in Max mind - I agree, he will probably gain this knowledge from Liz and use it against Max. This is why Max needs to know what Liz knows-I cannot shake this thought. "you can only think with what you know" Max must know what it is he is fighting for as it will make him stronger-stronger than Nicholas. According to Nicholas, Max was stronger than him once upon a time.

*This is the explanation from the Roswell High Book #4 re the "collective consciousness and the communication crystals"

BlueCornMoon--its not that I did not like ARCC at all or anything, I just think if it had been done in Season1 style slow and methodically and would have been awesome and of course a few other minor things--and above all I don't like waiting twenty minutes b4 Liz appears on my screen, this is totally unacceptable to me LOL!!!

Nemo--great pickup on the trombone---as for the award it certainly should be the ZERO award--what a great job keeping this thread alive and kicking for so long---me, I just VISIT-----OFTEN LOL!!!!

QFANNY and PIEFACE very interesting posts you made here, something to consider, I myself can't add anything to it at this point, its funny I don't know if I am suffering from lack of info or info overload but right now I am still thinking about the CLICKING NOISES that seemed to be coming from Tess in MITC eppy LOL!!!

Well I would like to WISH YOU ALL A BEAUTIFUL and SAFE HOLIDAY!!!!!!!!!!

I am sure we will all be back soon!!!!!!!!

I have been trying to figure out the reason for the dragon for sometime now. And I just found something interesting, but also confusing.

With Liz's shooting in 1999, her "rebirth" would be in the Year of the Hare, not the Dragon, but if her "rebirth" is when she left Max in Destiny, then it would be in the year of the Dragon.

Could her "rebirth" come from "dying" to her desires to be with Max and giving him up for what she believes to be a greater good? Thus making her worthy enough to become a dragon, a symbol of kings? (I'm just asking a question here, don't flame me for it. I totally believe that Max and Liz belong together.)

Or could it be from the flashes that she recieves from Max?

And 'death' from the shooting and then a 'conception' from the healing and reverse connection and a 'birth' from the first flash?

This may seem far fetched and might not work, (it's still a thought in progress, but I thought I'd try it out on you guys now) since I can't remember exactly when the first flash happened and I am too tired to go look through everything and figure out the time in between the healing and the first flash. But if someone who knows or has the time to find the answer can let me know, I'd appreciate it very much.

Gotta go. I have to work in the morning!

I Still Believe & I'll Never Forget

Just wanted to throw this out there as well. Thanks bluecornmoon for the info. I'll try and see if my theory fits later tonight after work.

I Still Believe & I'll Never Forget

Those are pretty mean.
The only mean ideas I can come up with have to do with have to do with the Ides of March. E tu, Liz?

Merry Christmas, everyone!

CharmedKitten thanks for the Metal Dragon info--very interesting and much appreciated

Bluecornmoon--please don't give the writers any more mean ideas, haven
they done enough to our star-crossed couple for one season?

Nermal--I noticed right off that Max's birthday was "beware the ides of March", I am sure this has some significance for sure hmmmmmm.

Happy Holidays to All!!!

Rooney

******************************************

I think that Liz and Max will continue to put up that wall between each other. I'm willing to bet that even after the truth comes out, they won't get back together. Max will love Liz more than he thought he ever could and will most definitely want to get back with her, and Liz will most certainly want him back, but she'll feel like them getting back together could still possibly cause problems for the podsters in the future. She'll think Max needs to continue to focus on his "destiny" not her, and as a result they'll continue to be apart. I believe that something major, almost catostrophic would have to happen to bring them back together as a couple, like an incident similiar to Max to Max, or the White Room. I think the writers will continue to keep them apart and continue to build the undeniable tension and attraction between them (at least I hope ).

You know the worst case scenario would be that Max would sleep with Tess, then he finds out the truth. Now, that would certainly keep he and Liz apart for what.... another year!!!!

Qfanny, how about if the Granolith materialized in Roswell because that's where Max & Liz were?

Dayneen, Horrors! Tess & Max cementing under false pretenses! We have real life tragedies enough; Roswell is the Land of Enchantment where Max has the silver touch and the heart of gold.

I know, I know I promised to stay away, but....I can't help myself. I managed to break away from the party for a moment to drop in on you guys.

Shapeshifter & Bluecornmoon,
I was just throwing out a worst case scenario. I think Tess has missed her chance too. Thank God!! Well unless she mind warps him into it.LOL And I don't think that's even possible considering that in TLV, Max was having these feelings for her but he knew they weren't really his feelings and he continued to love and want Liz.

Anyways,
It does look as if the writers are working more towards moving Liz and Max back together. Slowly but surely they're building a stronger relationship between them.

sigh

Hello everyone and happy holidays. I've been away for awhile traveling around Europe so I'm a bit behind on my Roswell. (no complaints here! I did get to see "the convention" in French, "Blind Date" in Italian, and "Toy House" in English with Dutch subtitles, all by coincidence while I was over there! Very entertaining) You guys have had some interesting theories and ideas in my absence, that's for sure!

Regarding the Granolith...has anyone else thought that perhaps Grandma Claudia had some kind of part in this?

I keep thinking about the fact that the pod chamber / Granolith is not directly at the crash site. You would have to think that the chamber was built to house and protect the pods/Granolith. There are a million different ways you can construct this theory, so here's one...and I apologize in advance for the long winded post.

We already know that there was an *alien* living on the Indian Reservation right outside of Roswell. We know that two sets of pods were sent down to Earth. We are beginning to know the true nature of the Royal 4 on their home planet...which IMHO is much more like the NY pod squad than the Roswell one. Just think about Lonny/Isabel...who can you picture being the deceptive Vilandra that is described? Max and Zan...who keeps putting his trust in the wrong people? Michael and Isabel would never kill Max! You see where I'm going here?

I keep thinking about the two sets and why they are so different. Why would one be put in the sewers of NY to be raised by themselves and their protectors and one set be put in Roswell? Why were the Roswell kids allowed to leave the pods to be discovered? To be raised by human families? Where was their protector when this happened? How did Nasedo find Tess and when? Has all of this ever been explained? Maybe it's no accident that Isabel and Max were adopted by a human family. My guess is that Michael should have been too, except he let go of Max's hand.

Maybe the aliens knew that in order to have the future of their planet turn out differently, the Royal 4 had to be different. They sent down two sets...one that would turn out to be very similar to the original Royal 4 on Twilo, and one that had a more human side to them.

Maybe it was the *man's* (from the Indian Reservation's) job to find a human to help them. If Grandma Claudia was studying the Indians, it stands to reason that she could have come into contact with him way back when. Maybe Grandma Claudia fell in love with him and Liz and her father are the results.

Again, there are a million different ways you can spin this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is later revealed that Grandma Claudia is involved somehow. Whether she helped build the pod chamber and hid the Granolith, or she helped to contribute the human DNA needed for the pods or whatever, I am personally convinced that she is involved.
Maybe she was entrusted with the secrets of the Granolith, because the skins would never suspect her, and has somehow passed this down, or will pass this down to Liz.

Liz is changed because Max healed her. This doesn't explain why he connected with her from the first time he saw her when they were children. A third grader would not be *sexually* attracted to another. Ya know? There has to be more to this connection.

I didn't have a chance to really think this through before I wrote this post, because it was ocurring to me as I wrote it. Please feel free to develop this theory -- I would appreciate your input!

I hope you all have a wonderful holiday season and a happy new year!

~metaphysicalgrl~

quote:Originally posted by pieface:
[b]Qfanny: If I interpret you correctly, what you are saying is Liz is the key to the granolith, the key that will open the door to the knowledge the granolith contains.*[/B]

I got to thinking about Greek Mythology and ancient civilizations and Liz could be like the equivalent of the Oracle at Delphi.

I looked up some info about the Oracle and there are a lot of parallels:
"The most famous ancient oracle was that of Apollo at Delphi. The medium was a woman known as the Pythia. The Pythia's counsel was most in demand to forecast the outcome of projected wars or political actions."

Also, from another page:
"The Pythia was knowledgeable in many areas: history, religion, geography, politics, mathematics, philosophy, etc. She uttered advice on where and how to build cities, which laws to incorporate, and which prayers to utter."

And this is also really interesting:
"A cone-shaped, decorated stone once stood in front of the Temple."
(Does this remind anyone of the granolith?!?)

My imagination might just be running away with me here but I thought that there a lot of similarities. The Oracle was a normal woman, not a goddess or anything extraordinary, and she was simply a channel through which the gods could send their information.
So to get back to pieface's quote, maybe Liz is also a channel through which the granolith and the aliens send their information or a key to the information that is already in the granolith.
She sure seemed to be tapping into something like that in SH.

Anyway, tell me what you think and
Merry Christmas!

I like the way you think!! Yuck to a Max/Tess union! Am reasonably content for now with the "mature conversation" and close friendship (ala ARCC) between Max and Liz. But again, I agree with you, something has to happen to bring the two of them back, really back, together again due to their intense love and need for each other (and the fans' intense need for them to be together. Not talking about actually "cementing" (although I think this is eventually inevitable), just working together as a loving team, figuring out a way to be together but keep Tess as a vital and wanted part of the group (let's get Kyle in here writers!). Together M & L have an amazing intellectual ability to discover ways to outwit and defeat their foes, possibly through the use of the Granilith?

Happy holidays to all!

I think that Mel's idea that the orbs are satellites to the granolith.

Somehow, Liz is a channel for the orbs and the granolith.

Pieface, I think that I see Liz as the granolith (the source-the oracle) and the thing in the pod chamber is just a bunch of nuts and bolts.

Interesting ideas everyone!

First: the Oracle. Inasmuch as a lot of importance was given to it in ancient times, let's not forget it was foolery: the Oracle was always right because she knew how to word things properly: very smart but didn't know more than you or me! The Oracle would prophesy: You will marry the Prince if your heart is pure! You will win the battle if your intentions are correct! Hence, if she didn't marry the Prince or he didn't win the battle, she was still right because her heart wasn't pure or his intentions were not correct! The Oracle "foresaw" the future with as much success as I would!

On top of all the wonderful things we are attributing to it, the Granolith may also have the ability to show glimpses of the past or the future, and I still say that Max is it's Guardian and Liz is its key (or conductor?), just as she was when she found the orb!

And yes, that place by Route 42, 2 miles from the crash, in the desert near Roswell, New Mexico, may be the only place on Earth where the Granolith could have landed! It may have installed itself at the exit road from the wormhole that brings you to Earth, the gateway to the Solar System?

(My keyvoard is acting weird, so I am suvstituting a V for a character it won't type.)

I know that you've spent more time thinking avout the granolith than myself, so I think that I would defer to your opinions avout them. I suppose at one point, we need to see Liz and next to the vig "G" to see what happens. When Congresswoman Whitaker asked Isavel, "Where's the granolith." I thought that granolith could ve like a title: "Where's the Doctor?" So that's how I got to thinking that the granolith is not so much as a thing, vut a person.

Know that Liz is altered-changed (I won't get started) isn't she in fact a stepping stone in human evolution?

And if Liz is the granolith, what the heck is that thing in the pod chamver?

I am of the opinion that the thing in the pod chamver is the tool, the nuts and volts of power, vut the granolith is actually a person.

No reason why I must stick to Liz as the granolith. Definately could ve someone else we know or don't know.

Vut if the vig thing in the chamver is so important, the podsters should have had some sort of instinct to protect the pod chamver. None of them did. However, I have noticed that all of them, even Tess to some extent, give Liz more respect and consideration than they do for their own, and I wonder if that is instinctive--- just like Max healed Liz on the reason, "It was YOU!"

Know that Liz is altered-changed (I won't get started) isn't she in fact a stepping stone in human evolution?

And if Liz is the granolith, what the heck is that thing in the pod chamver?

I am of the opinion that the thing in the pod chamver is the tool, the nuts and volts of power, vut the granolith is actually a person.

No reason why I must stick to Liz as the granolith. Definately could ve someone else we know or don't know.

Vut if the vig thing in the chamver is so important, the podsters should have had some sort of instinct to protect the pod chamver. None of them did. However, I have noticed that all of them, even Tess to some extent, give Liz more respect and consideration than they do for their own, and I wonder if that is instinctive--- just like Max healed Liz on the reason, "It was YOU!"

I really like this idea QFanny (btw, I'm not even supposed to be on here ... I'm escaping the relatives for a few seconds! Ugh, the holidays. So none of my thoughts will probably be very coherent due to the speed at which I'm spitting them out). The Granilith as a *who* not a *what*.

Going along with MetaphysicalGrl's idea above somewhat (tying Grandma Claudia into all this) ... what if the Granilith wasn't only one person, but several. A combined "energy" so to speak... shared amongst a number of people (probably in the same bloodline - only by females however). Some have said in here (I think) that the Granilith's shape (an upside down cone/triangle) represents a "female" or "femininity". The Granilith is the (alien?) representation/hardware for the true (living, human, Earthly) Granilith(s)?

The thing in the pod chamber (as Qfanny stated above) is the "hardware" so to speak, possibly a conduit to the "actual Granilith" (a living breathing organism aka Liz, formerly Grandma Claudia)? The lightening rod to Liz's lightening? I don't know (keep in mind this could be the wine talking).

The name itself also makes me think (granted, doesn't really explain why it was seemingly called the "granilith" on Twilo too, perhaps it was a prophecied name or something, Twilonian Witchdoctor: "And the oracles say this *thing* shall be called the Granilith. So says the Oracles so it shall be..."-- sorry, ranting )

GRANILITH

GRAN (GRANdma Claudia or GRANdmother) N (and) LITH (LIZ)

...ugh, now I KNOW it's the wine talking

Going back to Holiday monotony... wee.

Melodious

GRAN (GRANdma Claudia or GRANdmother) NI (and) LITH (LIZ)

Some more insane drivel

Or it could mean this...

GRANILITH

GRAN (GRANilith) I (In) LITH (LIZ)

"Granilith in Liz"

I think I better lie down, I'm feeling a little lightheaded.

Melodious

The thing in the pod chamber (as Qfanny stated above) is the "hardware" so to speak, possibly a conduit to the "actual Granilith" (a living breathing organism aka Liz, formerly Grandma Claudia)? The lightening rod to Liz's lightening? I don't know (keep in mind this could be the wine talking).
B]

In TEOTW Future Max didn't "leave" until Liz touched the Granolith. Perhaps her touch activated the transfer.

In favor of the Granolith being a "who" is Max's initial speculation about whether or not it can hear them. But I think we are pretty well established with that cone-shaped, ball-point-pennish object as the Granolith. Liz-as-Granolith would probably have to be in an alternate fan fiction. For one thing, in TEOTW, FM talks to Liz about the Granolith in the third person.

I keep thinking of the similarities of the Granolith to the Space Odyssey Monolith, and in that context I think of it as the Grandma of all Monoliths.

And then we could draw a connection between Granolith and Lilith (whom many of us were equating with Tess).

Have any of you using relatives computers figured out how to open a second window in AOL? Or doesn't it?

As far as awards go - the Zero award would be impossible to award given ALL the incredible theories and pictures created by all the wonderful people on this thread! But it was a nice thought.

I've had a bunch of thoughts spinning through my head, but they are all jumbled right now, so I will have to organize them and come back later.

Have a great day!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I was mostly trying to point out the symbolic similarities between Liz and the Oracle to give some historical backing to the theories that are being thrown out.

(Just as a side note: Historians today actually believe that volcanic gases might have caused the Oracle and its visitors to hallucinate various visions.)

The Oracle today is more of a symbol of the close connection it was once thought to have to the gods and its ability to access their knowledge and information.

A lot of people have said similar things about Liz--that she somehow has a connection to the Granolith and could be important to accessing its information.

quote:Originally posted by Donna2001:
"A cone-shaped, decorated stone once stood in front of the Temple."

Also, I thought it was really interesting that the Granolith is the same shape as the stone outside the temple of the Oracle. The Granolith could have been a lot of different shapes--why did they chose to make it cone-shaped?

I was mostly trying to point out the symbolic similarities between Liz and the Oracle to give some historical backing to the theories that are being thrown out.

Donna2001: Thanks for all the Oracle information-cool! Rostafarian's Signs, Symbols & Behrs thread would be another good place to post all this info on. I'm sure Rosta would love it! The thread may be back in the pages but it's there.

pie

....too much Christmas pie would explain mine.....

Totally - off topic - I was in Kmart and saw that they now make Buffy The Vampire Slayer FRUIT SNACKS (shaped like hearts and they squirt "blood" no less). Wonder if ROSWELL fruit chews are in our future... LOL!!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Re the granilith, I just hope that for once the writers will not leave a lose end, and will have Max ask Liz how she knew anything about the granilith. Future Max did not need to tell Liz how he got there, the fact that he did may be significant in the future. Liz's role as the key, may be that with her scientific mind, she'll be the one to figure out what it's purpose is and how to make it work.

You know the aliens ship crashed, maybe they were planning on landing somewhere else, maybe even another state, but the granilith forced them to land in Roswell, and maybe that's what caused the crash. Also, I think the orbs are, or where just something for the podsters to call home with (why haven't they tried using them again??) Or maybe they have and they only worked that one time. If they were a channel of communication from the granilith, why didn't whomever hide the orbs with the granilith, instead of one being hidden in the desert, and one being found on the other alien. I think the orbs where simply communicators to home, to the mommogram.

Hopefully the second half of the season will give us more info on the granilith.

Also, I thought it was really interesting that the Granolith is the same shape as the stone outside the temple of the Oracle. The Granolith could have been a lot of different shapes--why did they chose to make it cone-shaped?

I've wondered ... possibly as a safety clause... the "Royals" aren't the ones in this lifetime to "run the Granilith" perse. Ok, bear with me here... The skins don't seem to know all that much honestly. The Twilonians seemed to do at least a fair job keeping the whole "Earth hybrid" plan hush hush. The Skins didn't even know what or who the Royals were until Whitaker literally *stumbled* onto them. I still don't think they're entirely certain on who is who. Well what if the Twilonians took it a step further? The Skins probably think it would be the Royals and ONLY the Royals that could run the Granilith (because this is how it was in the past lifetime, granted, that's just an assumption)?

What if the Twilonians somehow "altered it" so that the TRUE keys/owners/operators of the Granilith were actually meager Earthlings? Liz possibly being one of them, but there are others, spread out over the whole planet? And they need ALL OF THEM to make the thing function to it's full capacity? What we saw in EOTW was just the tip of the iceberg (with only one "operator" [Liz] in it's presence); it's capable of much more massive power with all it's possible "operators"? If the Skins couldn't find the (very special) hybrid Royals, then I'm sure they'd have an even tougher time finding (human) "keys" to
unlock the (very important) Granilith?

Or perhaps the Twilonians didn't "alter" the Granilith at all? The "keys" were ALWAYS on Earth? Are we certain the Twilonians were ever able to even USE the Granilith in the past alien life? It was *possibly* worshipped to some degree. At least protected or regarded as if it were something of vital importance, but perhaps they only knew WHAT it could / would do. Something they were possibly NEVER able to do (fully anyway) due to the lack of the proper "operators" ([specific] humans)?? Possibly they're able to make it work *somewhat* and base their theories on it's full abilities from that? But are never able to make it work fully? They discover later that the "keys" are on this little, primative blue/green ball... bada bing bada boom... Royals are killed. Last ditch effort to save Twilo, Twilonians recreate their Royals as homosuperior (dominant) species of this primative blue/green ball and send them to live there as natives. Twilonians crossing their fingers that their "Royals" (the only ones with these "gifts" and "legendary aura"?) will find the "granilith keys" and save the Twilonian galaxy (and now, also said blue/green ball galaxy)?

It's not my intention to cheapen the Max/Liz connection in anyway... I'd also prefer it if they were "soulmates". However, that damn realist in me wants a more logical explanation to *why* alien hybrid Max had this very significant recognition of human Liz when he was a child (a recognition he held onto for nearly a decade). What if Max recognized Liz because he KNEW she was one of these "keys" to the Granilith (perhaps the most vital/powerful one - which is why the Granilith worked at all in EotW)? He NEEDS Liz possibly more than he could ever need Tess. Had Liz been in the past life, he would have married her because of her importance but she wasn't in the past life and married Tess. At the time, this alliance / marriage wasn't only wanted but also vital for the cause? Although it's still up in the air imo if either actually loved each other - kind of sketchy honestly due to the current Max/Tess behavior. Once again, I wouldn't want Max to marry Liz because she was just "important to the cause", but because he loves her more than anything (and she loves him)... I want her to be both the *love of Max's life* AND *important to the cause*... as a Dreamer *and* Liz Mythologist.

Melodious

quote:Originally posted by Dayneen:
FMax was thinking that they were taken over by their enemies because Tess left (I find it hard to believe that if one of the podsters die or leave, everyone is doomed),

Good point Dayneen, I also thought it was kind of illogical and rather implausible that the lack of ONE caused EVERYONE'S downfall (some plan Twilonians).

If the balance was indeed off... I have a feeling it was because it just wasn't Tess that was lacking, it was several *contributors to the balance* that were M.I.A.

quote:well maybe they were taken over because they didn't learn how to use the granilith properly, and they didn't learn how to use the granilith's full power. And maybe why that happened is because they never fully awakened the key - Liz. In FMax's world FLiz probably didn't even know that she had powers

I feel that more than likely, due to the time King hybrid (F)Max cemented with his "changed" human girlfriend (F)Liz... he did something to her he shouldn't have done just yet. It "changed" her and SEALED this change? Liz was never able to "mature" or "change" as she should have because they *cemented too soon*? It seems apparent that Max/Liz's "connecting" does strange things to Liz (BD, SH, etc)... it wouldn't surprise me the actual *cementing* could be VERY drastic on her. In FMax/Liz's timeline... it changed her negatively (stunting her powers)? In THIS timeline (due to the necessary *delay* [and honestly, it IS just a *delay*, and probably a pretty short one ] and Liz discovering/developing some of her powers SANS Max's presence), Liz's change will be for the better (and complete)??

quote:You know the aliens ship crashed, maybe they were planning on landing somewhere else, maybe even another state, but the granilith forced them to land in Roswell, and maybe that's what caused the crash.

Interesting idea that the Granilith *made them* crash. This all revolves around Liz for me.... the Granilith *sensing* something in Roswell. Or perhaps the Twilonians were counting on the Granilith *pointing them in the right direction*. They already KNEW the keys were on Earth and also knew the Granilith would find them (it, him, her)? Hence, Granilith lands in Roswell. Granilith hatches Max, Isabel and Michael (but not Tess). Max goes to school, sees Liz from across the playground and is instantly besotted. Liz is the one (via connecting with Max) who found the orb (hence eventually allowing them to see the Momogram). Liz was in the chamber when they were activated. "Mom" (presumedly) pairs off everyone... yet doesn't mention the Granilith?? Could she have left out some vital information (information which might include a lovely, brown-haired human girl)?? I have to think it's a possibility.

Melodious

I think that I am going through serious Roswell withdrawal because I have all these questions and theories popping up in my mind. I just felt the need to share them with you all and maybe get your input on their significance ( if they are significant at all!).

Here goes:

There seems to be a lot of parallels going on expecially in realtion to the V formation. I think we first see the stars as a V in The Balance (that is one of the few episodes that I don't have on tape). It seems strange that Tess mentions it as "the planets are aligning thus awakening our biological drives" (even Liz's - but that comes later). The V formation is also the formation of the planets in Max's home galaxy. I was always confused because I never understood what one V formation of planets had to do with the other. Maybe it is one of the reasons that the "elders" on planet Twilo chose Earth as a home for the podsters?

I also don't think that Michael and Tess are the same race as Max and Isabel. The fact that the powers of the Royal Four complement each other leads me to think that they come from different planets and that their "unions" were meant to solidify the relationships between the planets. I think also that Tess is a skin, somehow related to Kivar or CW. Her interest in that picture in Harvest has always haunted me. I also think that her union with Max was political in this respect. There was nothing stopping Zan from taking Ava as his mate (no Liz), but from all accounts he did not seem interested at all.

I also think that when the King chooses his mate, the union is not only physical, but something much more powerful takes place. I think that the term "cement" was not used by accident. It seems as if that particular pair almost literally become one, "we became inseparable" and it definitely should not be entered into lightly. I think this was the primary reason that FM came back to Lz. I also think that this is the reason that Nacedo was pushing so hard for Max to unite with Tess. I'm thinking that he was thinking that their union would undoubtedly lead to peace on their planet (especially if Tess IS a skin). This also lends credence to the fact that they were never really married in their former life and that this marriage would be a disaster for Kivar (his claim on the throne would definitely be weakened if the bride of the king was a skin!)

I was also thinking about the granolith. When FM used it to come back from the future, it seemed almost as if it operated as an elevator. I thimk that it has the capabilities of opening up a wormhole for travel either through time or through space. I also think that it is one of the reasons that the emmisaries from the other planets have to possess human bodies to communicate, their mode of travel has been greatly hampered by its absence from their solar system.

I also think that Liz has at least the essence of one of the races from one of the planets in Max's solar system (sorry for those of you who want her to be human). I think that she is possibly from a planet (maybe Larek's) that is sort of like the Switzerland of Max's solar system. When Max got off of that school bus and saw her, there was no sexualy attraction there, but a recognition. This is a fact that (hopefully) TPTB won't gloss over or completely ignore from season one. Max's love for her would not be encouraged on his planet because that union would not be politically strategic in the eyes of his people (as a union with a Skin would be). However, it seems as if they underestimated the power that such a union would generate. Her nonviolent nature along with her scientific knowledge is a perfect balance to his job as King as well as her ability to be a perfect advisor. The fact that Zan was "looking for someone else" shows that there was some relationship that existed in the other life that was important to him.

It also seems that one of the powers at least available to the aliens would be the power to warp. Nacedo showed this ability in Max to Max when he "appeared" in the pod chamber. Nikolas also showed this ability when Tess firebombed the Skins. Couldn't Zan therefore have somehow warped out of the way of that truck in MTD? I think that it would be a terrific arc for TPTB to explore!

As you can see, I'm going through serious Roswell withdrawal here. Just thought that I would share!

As much as I'd love to be redeemed in your eyes , I have to tell you Melodious1 came up with the "altered" granilith theory. However, the theory does fit well with my idea that the reason why the podsters got taken over in the future was because Liz & Max cemented too soon and Liz's power (being the key to the granilith) was never developed. Therefore they were never able to use the granilith's full power and ultimately lost the war because of it.

I'll have to watch "Balance" again to check out the healing stones size. Riverdog did say they were from Twilo.

jjac: The V constellation did appear in The "Balance" and "Four Square". The thing is, in Four Square Isabel and Michael seemed to be the only ones having intense dreams about their supposed "destiny" not Max. And if the planets being aligned is supposed to give them these dreams and steer them towards their destinies, why didn't these dreams happen back in Dec 99'(Balance) when the V constellation first appeared? Another inconsistency with Tess. There are too many of them when it comes to her for them not to mean something. The writers can't be that sloppy.

After that lengthy discussion I had with myself early this morning I remembered something else about warping. I think that is how the two aliens in SO47 got the pods out of the army base. Hal said that he thought that he had failed because security was so tight that it was no way that he could see that the aliens got out. But they did - one went to NY with the dupes and the other put the pods in the granolith chamber. But this brings up another question. If the dupe's protector was with them in NY, who was the second alien that was captured with Nacedo? I get the impression that the dupe's alien was with them for a while before he left them.

Also, if the aliens are able to warp and stay in the background, this may be the mysterious watcher who seems to have been following our group from the beginning of the season. What do you think?

After that lengthy discussion I had with myself early this morning I remembered something else about warping. I think that is how the two aliens in SO47 got the pods out of the army base. Hal said that he thought that he had failed because security was so tight that it was no way that he could see that the aliens got out. But they did - one went to NY with the dupes and the other put the pods in the granolith chamber. But this brings up another question. If the dupe's protector was with them in NY, who was the second alien that was captured with Nacedo? I get the impression that the dupe's alien was with them for a while before he left them.

Also, if the aliens are able to warp and stay in the background, this may be the mysterious watcher who seems to have been following our group from the beginning of the season. What do you think?

How was christmas??? Did you guys get what you wanted???
Did Santa vist??????

I'd like to say I missed you guys- and I have!!!! But you with festivities!!!!

IS anyone about

IM BACK !!
Great thread- you guys
to all
ellen
------
Boys are Great-Every girl should own one

Sorry to interupt whaterver conversations you were having, but I just discovered this topic (and I love it by the way) and I just had to ask Starbox where the animation of Liz and Max outside the emergency room is from (the one on the first page of this thread). I mean what episode or preview that it was originally in. If it is from the next episode then it looks really interesting. But Max looks like he is dressed in Season 1 clothes and I don't recognise the scene.

Anyway, I really want to come back and read the rest of the discussion later (I've only read the 1st page so far and I just had to ask about the animation). I cannot read it now because it is past my bedtime and my eyes are beginning to shut of their own accord.

What is with the trombone? I don’t understand? Can someone help me? I am L&W so maybe I missed the explanation.

About the dragon—it was on Liz’s window in S1(you can see it in SH I think), but it wasn’t as prominent.

Jjac—I agree that Michael and Tess are not from the same race as Max. That would explain why Courtney thinks that Michael could have united their planet. If he was married to Isabel, then he would be connected to both races of the planet.

Dayneen—Max was also having intense dreams. When he talks with Tess he asks her if they mate through dreams (to find out if Isabel is pregnant) and it flashes to what he has been dreaming. I think it was more disturbing to Isabel and Michael because they really considered each other siblings. What a gross thought, don’t you think? Don’t get me wrong—it upset Max, but not in the same EWWWWW! GROSS! Way.

To all: great theories! Love reading them!

After that lengthy discussion I had with myself early this morning I remembered something else about warping. I think that is how the two aliens in SO47 got the pods out of the army base. Hal said that he thought that he had failed because security was so tight that it was no way that he could see that the aliens got out. But they did - one went to NY with the dupes and the other put the pods in the granolith chamber. But this brings up another question. If the dupe's protector was with them in NY, who was the second alien that was captured with Nacedo? I get the impression that the dupe's alien was with them for a while before he left them.

Also, if the aliens are able to warp and stay in the background, this may be the mysterious watcher who seems to have been following our group from the beginning of the season. What do you think?

Your idea made me think of the Roswell High books! In those the podsters were able to dematerialize and show up in a completely different location (a. from the house where DuPris has them under his power, back to Roswell; b. Michael going to Long Island from Roswell to hide his Stone of Midnight and back again; c. Max does this several times, but especially in book 10 where both Max and Liz dematerialize then rematerialize). I had not thought of this before but if you picture the So47 aliens dematerializing both themselves and the two sets of pods, this would work and solve the hithertofore unsolvable problem of how did they get the pods to move from the base to the granolith cave and also to NYC!

Rebuttals?

Sorry to interupt whaterver conversations you were having, but I just discovered this topic (and I love it by the way) and I just had to ask Starbox where the animation of Liz and Max outside the emergency room is from (the one on the first page of this thread). I mean what episode or preview that it was originally in. If it is from the next episode then it looks really interesting. But Max looks like he is dressed in Season 1 clothes and I don't recognise the scene.

Anyway, I really want to come back and read the rest of the discussion later (I've only read the 1st page so far and I just had to ask about the animation). I cannot read it now because it is past my bedtime and my eyes are beginning to shut of their own accord.

To answer for Starbox, the picture was an alternative ending for Leaving Normal (season 1) that Jason Katims mentions in his interview/discussion of Season 1 on the WB Roswell Primer site. He discusses how he was going to use this first scene but TPTB wanted a more 'cinematic' scene. Personally I LOVE the scene that they ended up using, but the alternative scene is so sweet. If you go to redhawk's Roswell site, she has this animation posted there (sorry, don't have the url here at work).

1) The healing stones are almost spherical but not quite; they're about the size of a hackysack ball, and they're irregular polyhedrons. Amber colored, but I think they glowed blue when they were activated. Color theorists?

2) There are Liz dragons in season 1. I saw a dragon on the bulletin board in Liz' room. I think it was in SH when her mom tried to have the talk with her ("don't ever have sex, don't ever leave this house, don't ever stop being my baby girl...").

Happy holidays, all! Hubby got me a PTV for Christmas. It has freeze-frame (hooray!), has very fine recording quality, and it will hold up to 30 hours of recorded programming! I have a glimmer of hope that freeze-frame will help me become as observant as you folks! Thanks for sharing your insights. I enjoy this thread very much!

Actually the first time the dragon appeared on Liz's window was in "Blind Date." Ironically, this is when Liz first started to receive flashes from Max(besides the reverse connection, but in that case he was trying to send her these feelings and flashes). Also, that same night Nasedo/ Tic Tac officially showed up in Roswell.

jjac - I've been thinking/pondering on the same thoughts you have, but here is how mine go. What if Khivar is the equivalent of a Hilter for his solar system. Max/Zan was a supreme ruler that was working on bringing peace throughout their solar system and to all races of beings, and part of this included having beings from all races represented in their government body. Micheal is from a different race (maybe the same race as the Skins - remember, they are only "skins" on Earth) and Tess is also from another race (which one??). Zan had agreed to marry Ava/Tess as part of the peace arrangement. But Khivar - determined to take over supreme power - courts Volandra (who is due to marry Rath as part of an arrangement - no love there either), who goes on to betray her people - maybe changing her mind at the last minute, but too late - all die. Khivar comes to power - similar to how Hilter did - and begins "eliminating" other (less desireable beings) and sets off the current "wars" that are occurring (similar to WWII here). The podsters are sent to Earth (similar to the underground railroad of WWII) which has already been prepared for them. Dupes are sent to confuse since it is only a matter of time before the enemy finds them. The Granolith is essential to "rule" the Twilo solar system, but Khivar finds that it is not on Twilo - foiling his plans to become "supreme" ruler (this is where my Arthur analogy comes in). Now, Khivar must fight the wars, search for the Granolith and search for the podsters - knowing that as long as their essence remains, that the Twilo beings will never give up their fight. I do agree that Larak may be from a planet that is the equivalent of Switzerland, but even Switzerland was not totally "neutral" in WWII - look at the banking scandals that have recently been in the news (i.e., laudering or providing a hiding place for millions of dollars stolen by the Nazis). So, though Larak may be neutral - he still has to cover his behind since Khivar is the guy in power right now. A fine line to walk. Maybe the other rulers were upset because knowing that Max has the Granolith but is not home helping fight the war - that they may think he caused somehow - makes him unpopular with those rulers caught up fighting for their survival. Okay - I'm rambling now, but that is what I have been pondering!

BTW - The dragon was present in S1 - I also noticed it, but it was not as prominent at all. And the V constellation did show up way before the Tess/alignment stuff - sooooo ... Also, would five planet always stay in that formation in the Twilo solar system??? I don't think so - though it would depend on their orbit and relationship to each other. Any astronomers out there??? Also - I'm still pulling for Tic Tac to be an alien different from Harding, that maybe was injured in experiments by the Special Unit - thus, the tic tac medicine to maintain his balance - and Tic Tac watches over the podsters and Liz knowing that Liz is essential to the podsters success in defeating Khivar and restoring peace to the Twilo solar system.

OH - also, I always thought Max's "dreams" were projections from Tess, not true "dreams."

Zero
I Shall Believe

Well, in "The Balance" Max called Liz Venus.
(LIZ: My parents are away for the weekend. They're at a stargazing camp-out. Something about Venus being in the morning sky.
MAX: I thought she was right in front of me.)
I don't know if this is just a coincidence and that maybe he was trying to be cute (which he definitely was ) or if it had some significance.
It could mean that Liz is acutally the final unit needed to complete the pod squad.

There's just a few things I haven't quite figured out. In Four Square they think that Venus moving in to complete the V shape actually represents Tess because she showed up around that time.
But since Tess is one of the original pod squad it would make more sense that she's represented by one the four stars already in formation.

Anyway--let me know what you all think! And sorry if I'm repeating already existing theories here. I just joined the board a little while ago so it's at least a revelation for me.

Like most, I'm in the middle of my holiday vacation at home with family, but just wanted to pop in quickly to wish everyone a happy holiday season.

Also a huge thanks for all the fantastic animations and fanpics (love the dragon/Liz pic!!!).

Hope the New Year brings joy and happiness to you all!

quote: Originally posted by Qfanny: I am slowly forming the opinion that Liz is the granolith, if you will. If Liz was the granolith, it would explain why Max knew she was special from the very beginning. And it is Liz that has always solved the podsters problems. It's Liz that knows what to do, and her judgements are instinctively followed by all the podsters. It's Liz's opinions that seem to give Max direction. And in a moment of conflict as to what to do, Liz seems to have the final say.

If the granolith is so important, the podsters should have some sort of instinct to protect it. Just like Max knew Liz was special and saved her from dying, one or all of the podsters should have an instinct to protect the pod chamber. I am not saying that had to know about the granolith, but there should be some internal knowledge of the stepping stone.

I think that Max will find out about the granolith and Liz/Kyle/FM triangle. But I think it will happen when Nicolaus mind rapes Liz. And Nicolaus uses the information to torment Max somehow. Perhaps Nicolaus will realize that Liz is the granolith, and that the object in the pod chamber and Liz are compatable with one another somehow.

When I read this, it reminded me of one of the characters on a recent show, Andromeda. The basis is that the ship is 'alive/sentient' and actually has a human body. Sorry this doesn't really explain it very well (I only watched the show once ).

Okay, now I really have to get off the computer

I was watching a documentary on Prince William on PBS earlier today. Apparently Princes William and Harry / Charles travel in separate planes. Which makes sense because if something happens to one plane... the Brit Royal line still has 50/50 shot of one plane coming in w/out a hitch (don't mean to sound callous, just trying to make a point). An attempt to secure an heir to the Brit Royal throne.

If there were two ships... could the Royal Four have been "halved" / separated to secure a "royal ruler"? However, if two royals were on each ship, then why are their conveniently four podsters (seemingly deemed / confirmed by numerous as the "Royal Four")? I have a few theories for this, I don't know if any of them are plausible however...

~Two of the current podsters/dupes are *not* Royalty. If I were going to make a guess... I'd have to say this might be the Young Bride and 2nd in Command. Both of which don't have a definitive connection to the (seeming) definite Royals (King and his sister). Why is one called the "young bride"? Not wife, hence she's a princess or Queen etc. Although you're to assume she's such - it hasn't been fully confirmed. The 2nd doesn't necessarily mean he was/is "royalty" - he might have been but also be no more than a General (aka a soldier). Neither are "royal born" but were *close* to marrying into royalty... but weren't quite there yet?

~There is a King, his Sister, Young Bride and 2nd in Command = 4 Royals... half in one ship, half in the other. Making two of our current podsters either decoys or simply *other* people (who aren't part of the "royal four").

~Two (+/-) are decoys to hide the other real royals (who were in the other ship)? My guesses would be the same as the above: Tess/Ava and possibly Michael/Rath. Tess "remembers" Max loving her, but Max doesn't love her or remember loving her because Tess isn't the real bride (which would mean TPTB are attempting to pull the wool over our eyes -- although as eps progress, I really do feel Tess is who she's supposed to be - although I'm still keeping the possibilty open she's not who she thinks she is).

If Michael is also (possibly) a decoy. This could be why he was never able to control his powers like Max/Isabel? He's different from them and he's more similar to Tess. Which is why when she helped him with his powers - he was able to learn some control and develop them as opposed to when it was just him, Max & Iz? She's the ONLY podster that could have helped him?

~All our podsters are "Royals"... but none of them have the complete essences of those stated in Momogram. Their essences were spliced and put in yet another set (and/or two sets - another *real* set and a dupe set -- making a total of 16 possible podsters)... Sent in the other ship. There's another (two) set(s) of podsters roaming around.

I always seem to go back to Tess/Michael being the "odd ones out". Max has been seemingly *confirmed* "the King" (via that test done on his head). Max and Isabel have always shared that brother/sister connection as well as most of everyone believing Isabel to be Vilandra (still sketchy on that, but I'm leaning mostly on Max/Iz sibling feelings/connection to confirm their relationship). Tess / Michael on the other hand... Although Nik seemed to recognize Michael as the "2nd"... I'm not putting all that much confidence in Nik's recognition. The Skins INCLUDING Nik (and all his powers) don't seem to be sure which WHO the podsters are. Larek's reaction to Tess also bothered me somewhat... he had full recognition of Max as the King, yet didn't seem to care at all Tess was standing there. He didn't even acknowledge her (Larek really *does* recognize the King, but had no idea who Tess was or just didn't care at all. Although Larek plainly stated he went to the King's wedding?? Yet he didn't acknowledge her??). Which makes me really wish tests were performed on ALL existing podsters, not just Max, to confirm or deny their "positions". Aren't the rest important enough to have tests done on them too?? It's almost like TPTB WANT us to continue questioning the true "positions" of the others (all others) in this story?

If any of these are a possibility... then I'd have to think there might be another momogram floating around, hence another pair of orbs (2 orbs for each ship). Not trying to be juvenile about this or anything (the numbers don't always have to add up)... but it always bothered me slightly that there were FOUR royals yet only two orbs. TWO just seems like such an odd number where Ros number theories are concerned. TWO doesn't come up very often... it's almost always either FOUR or FIVE. Only TWO orbs for only TWO real Royals?

Is Liz possibly one of these other podsters, the King's true bride (or at least true love, who he recognized instantaneously upon seeing her)? I don't know. I suppose in a way I kind of want her to have a connection in the past life as well, but on the same token I don't. I suppose I'm just keeping an open mind.

Granted, there is really NO reason to think there were two ships at all in our Ros mythos, but I do find the idea intriguing.

Melodious

Mel, while I like your theory about the Royals being split like our Dear Old Royal Family (God Bless 'em all ), but it disturbs me to think that Rath was the real second in command. I believe the Dupe Rath would have betrayed King Zan in a heartbeat.

I agree Michael was a skin in his previous life, which is why there is a faction of skins that support him.

I believe there are THREE factions in the Skin camp.

Faction 1 is K'var, probably the majority, who wants to rule Twilo himself, and had desires for further conquest.

Faction 2 is a splinter from faction 1, who want to be the ruling Party, and believe that Micahel is the more obviouse candidate for Leadership.

Faction 3 is not represented on Earth, except through Tess, who was Max's politically arranged bride. They see that the peaceful co-existance of the two races is the only way, and probably like Zan and the changes he wanted to impliment.

WR

Can someone explain the trombone in the ARCC picture in the above pages for me? Pretty please? Thanks.

[It would be unorthodox, but not impractical, for a player with right-arm limitations to reverse all these directions and play opposite-handed -- but in that case the instrument would also be assembled "left-handed" so that the bell would still be up and away from the player's slide hand.]

Now compare the picture from ARCC on p6. The horn is assembled normally, but held reverse-handed and upside down. The bell hangs beneath the slide (resting on the right shoulder) and gets in the way of the left hand holding the slide. It looks as if the "player" is either clowning or clueless. ("Here, hold this.")

Keyvoard is still vroken. Just groan and vear it.

Regarding the granolith ideas: Yes, Yes, Yes. I really like everyone expanding on what I posted avout Liz and the granolith as compatalve. Just like we had evidence that suggested that Liz may have veen altered last season, we have this season evidence that Liz and the granolith are connected somehow.

If Liz and the granolith are connected, then
1) It explains why Max instinctively knew to save Liz. ~~~Mel, thanks for veing a realist.
2) Donna, I think you said that the granolith did not send Max to the future, until Liz touched it.
3) Liz has the most knowledge avout the granolith.
4) If the Royals needed to ve protected (two ships), then it makes since to make the most important Royal (aside from Max) anonymous to everyone. If Liz is the granolith, would she not therefore ve Royal? She still is completely human alveit altered.

Melodious - I also agree with your speculation about "splitting" the royal 4 - or at the very least - "hiding" one or more of them (a la the Trojan horse). Personally - I think there were THREE spaceships. There is a mural of three UFO's in the Crashdown that has been very prominent this season. Also - you have the photo of the UFO and the granolith chamber in the locker room of the Crashdown.

Zero - love your ponderings about Hitler/Khivar.

Another thing that is curious to me - in talking about the possibility of some of the podsters not being "authentic" - is that Lonnie seemed authentic to me (in terms of being Vilandra). I would say that Max, Lonnie, Michael, and Tess are all "strong" characters. Rath, Ava and Isabel seem to be more passive - just giving support to whoever they are following. But - by that token - Lonnie, Micheal and Tess all seem "volotile" - like they could turn on you and betray you in a heartbeat. As creepy as it seems - I could buy into Isabel as the bride (assuming that they never actually married and the union was political) - she is so loyal to Max and really SEEMS like a royal to me - I can picture her agreeing to a political union - and I can see her viewing her "king" more as a brother than a husband. On the other hand, I have a very hard time seeing her as Vilandra. This goes back to my earlier speculatin that Isabel/Ava shared an essence and Lonnie/Tess shared an essence.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Also, I do agree with you about Tess/Lonnie and Ava/Izzy sharing "essences." Basically, their appearance is "their human side", so their alien essence could have easily been switched. And CWW did think it would be just like the Queen to have switched them.

There was some talk of an alien watching Nacedo (S&B), then Max (AN), then Maria & Liz (WO). Could it have been TESS??

I found it noticable (or an indicator) in WO, -- Tess wasn't at the Crashdown. She showed up after Maria & Liz came to the Crashdown. If it were a skin, wouldn't he/she have attacked the humans right then & there?? But the alien seemed to haunt M & Liz (scare them).

tp: It might have been Tess but i'm thinking it could be more like a guardian protecting the royal four and our Liz.

In season one they made Nasaedo a shapeshifting alien and someone that could not be trusted and feared to heighten the suspence. Well they might be trying the same thing in season two. Nasaedo actually turned out to be one of the good guys.

As for the EOTW due to Tess leaving? Well lets put it this way, Tess saved the Royal four via the firebomb technique she used so that's good enough. She helped save the Royal four, so her job is finished and Max and Liz can move on.

I really don't think JK is going to pursue anymore of the Tess and Max thing. Obviously he has been tryin hard to get audiences to warm up to her for some reason and if he wants to continue having her on the show I don't think he'll try that route again.

As for Tess and Lonnie switch...maybe a possibility. If it's true Lonnie/Tess and Kivar/Grant can hook up, leave earth and leave Is with Alex and Max with Liz!

As for the healing that Max performed, it totally reminded me of all the miracles that Jesus performed on earth. I guess it goes well with the Christmas theme since it is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ the savior of mankind.

Thanks reguru, I'll go and check it out!

I have been spending a little time going thru all the stuff that we have showing alien writing and trying to come up with a way to decode it. I will let you know if I come up with everything.

I did have one thing of interest to share. The map in the cave has writing either above or to the side of each place where a stone should be placed. I am working on the theory that since this is a map, the writing above each stone is the name of the planet or some vital information about life on that planet. I have also noticed that on the beeper or communicator or whatever you want to call it the marking of most (but not all) match the last letter of each word over or beside a stone.

I also noticed that some people said that the beeper was 6 sided with a 5 sided shape in the middle, but the more I look at it the more I am sure that it is 5 sided. One of the sides have 2 symbols, the others only one.

I also remember some speculating that since Brody was holding the thing with his finger on the spiral shape when Michael came in that is why it knocked him out. I think that it would be more likely that which ever light lit up when it threw Michael for a loop would be more significant. Does anyone know which light lit at that time? I do not have any of the episodes on tape, so I can't go back and look.

I would appreciate it if anyone out there would let me know if the light is visible and if so in what position it was in at the time.

Got to go bury myself in some more ancient script books. Be back later.

What if the Twilonians somehow "altered it" so that the TRUE keys/owners/operators of the Granilith were actually meager Earthlings? Liz possibly being one of them, but there are others, spread out over the whole planet? And they need ALL OF THEM to make the thing function to it's full capacity...

Or perhaps the Twilonians...only knew WHAT it could / would do. Something they were possibly NEVER able to do (fully anyway) due to the lack of the proper "operators" ([specific] humans)?? Possibly they're able to make it work *somewhat* and base their theories on it's full abilities from that? But are never able to make it work fully? They discover later that the "keys" are on this little, primative blue/green ball... bada bing bada boom... Twilonians crossing their fingers that their "Royals" (the only ones with these "gifts" and "legendary aura"?) will find the "granilith keys" and save the Twilonian galaxy (and now, also said blue/green ball galaxy)?

It's not my intention to cheapen the Max/Liz connection in anyway... I'd also prefer it if they were "soulmates". However, that damn realist in me wants a more logical explanation to *why* alien hybrid Max had this very significant recognition of human Liz when he was a child (a recognition he held onto for nearly a decade). What if Max recognized Liz because he KNEW she was one of these "keys" to the Granilith (perhaps the most vital/powerful one - which is why the Granilith worked at all in EotW)?...
Mythologist.

Melodious

Melodious, this is a GREAT theory! It had also seemed odd to me that so far we've encountered no other aliens who are Twilonian/human hybrids. The fact that the Royal four were sent here in highest secrecy and with additional protection and such, makes me wonder why this manner was chosen for them and no others. Again, your theory would help answer that.

Could it also be that a certain number of humans/human hybrids are needed in order to fully activate the granolith? This may be what FMax meant when he said Tess was critical to their survival. If it takes, say, eight humans/hybrids for it to be fully functional, this would set up our four podsters plus any human mates (ahem, soulmates I'm thinking) to activate it. Maybe our podsters were actually designed to affect changes in their human counterpoints that would allow them to become keys to the granolith?

Or, did the planners on Twilo originally create the Royal Four and the dupes to round out the eight maybe?

I don't know just a couple of random thoughts!

BTW, Qfanny... with your broken keyboard, you now sound as if you're posting with a Russian accent!

I'm convinced Tess is part of the Balance... but I can't believe "the balance" consists of only four parts.

Since we KNOW humans CAN participate in alien rituals (Michael's healing in "Balance"), then WHY couldn't they contribute to everything else? I say, the more the merrier

quote:Maybe our podsters were actually designed to affect changes in their human counterpoints that would allow them to become keys to the granolith?

ESPECIALLY knowing that podsters powers CAN change humans (and I'm pretty d**n sure Liz is/was a normal human *prior* the healing). Well... ONE podster's powers... but I still believe all the podsters are basically the same, they just have their strengths in different areas. So if ONE podster can change a human(s), then I'm sure they ALL can. Maybe even more effectively than Max?

Although this makes me go back to those kids Max healed in ARCC. I've had past theories around why Liz might be the only one changed (or significantly changed) from Max healing her. Possibly Max unconsciously WANTING Liz to be like him and/or change her. If it's these *unconscious* wants that lead to significant change in humans (and doesn't require "healing" necessarily to do it... possibly just lots of connecting )... I'd have to think the next person that will more than likely be showing *abilities* (besides Kyle - minor residual effects from the intense use of alien power on him more than likely *and no more than that* - and possibly the same goes for those kids in ARCC) might be Maria. Despite Michael's early season behavior, I'm certain he still wants to be with Mar, but can't because of what he is (hence pushes her away to protect her)... Michael could have slowly been changing Maria too? Maybe Brody (because of his use as an "emissary") will also (possibly) change Maria too -- if they get any closer that is (granted, kind of iffy)?

This "balance" is growing daily

Melodious

The symbol on the cover of the book is not the symbol on the map used to represent Max's home planet. Max's planet is the bottom of the V, but that symbol is at the top, right of the V. If it was from Twilo, why would it have the marking for another planet on it?

Also on the cave map There does not actually appear to be a symbol that the bottom crystal fits in. It is actually over the drawing that looks like the place where the pods and the granolyth are. Why would they draw symbols for each of the other stones to fit in but put the one that is supposed to represent Max's planet over the mountain looking drawing (I swear that it looks exactly like the pod chamber.)? That basically leaves no true marking for Max's planet.

The V constellation also appeared in Blind Date and Sexual Healing. I think they DID effect Liz and Max, that in SH it was more than just the orb.

The guy that was watching Max and Liz was the same "person" that appeared on Independance Day. The shapeshifter changed into him after being Hank and burrying Hank's body under the tree. The person burying Hank ate tic tacs.

What I would like to know is how the Shapeshifter posing as the Topolski's doctor knew to come out there and how he knew (this is an assumption) that the FBI were setting up an ambush to capture Topolski. If Michael and the other's had met Topolski they would all be in the FBI's hands. He knew somehow. (Note: He also ate tic tacs after he shapeshifted from his doctor role to a hitch hiker.)

Could he be the one who had been studied for 3 years? Could the FBI have been able to recruit him in spite of their treatment of him (by force or threats) or could he just be going along with them to find out what they know and do what he can? Or could he be pretending to be one of their field agents?

That's how it looks to me too. If I remember right, the person who originally thought there were 6 sides later amended their number to 5 also. So I think that's agreed now. But I can't tell you what sector was lighted at the time of the impulse that hit Michael. I don't recall whether we got a close enough look for that. Anyone?

Other topic: If Tess & Ava were switched, this could also explain why Zan seemed to be 'waiting for someone else,' and though this would kill our Liz=someone else theory, with Ava gone, and Max in love with Liz, it would negate Tess's claims.

Hey GraceKel
It's great seeing you, well reading from you again! I managed to watch that scene from "SH" again, and yes I do see what appears to be the V constellation (not as apparent as in previous episodes, but still there) turned sideways with the arrow pointing to the crown!! You're right!! It's missing the 5th star though, Venus. Perhaps, Venus's movement into position was causing the visions. Amazing Grace!!!

Great theories over night, y'all! May I ask a question - (it's probably been discussed before...) I feel sure it was significant that Max told Liz "you have to look at me" when he healed her... And of course, he hasn't made that request of any of his other healees (sorry)... What is the significance of that eye contact? Is that a key to the CHANGE? Also, n.b., since she opened her eyes she wasn't dead yet, was she! (ref theories that she was already dead.) Maybe she was at the beyond point where you see THE light - and Max was called her back to look at him instead!!!! Now THAT's cool, and has the symbols of rebirth all over it!

I know you're all working out there, but I've got the whole week off and it's cold out, so I'm Roswellating. Hate seeing the thread on page 2 anyway. Had to write something...

Shapeshifter, that was funny about your mom telling you to go to bed! I'm 39 and I can just see my mom in that situation - she's a total technophobe - she would tell me to stop working on the computer because she's afraid I'll catch a computer virus. (ah-choo) She doesn't want me getting sick, you know...

The symbol on the cover of the book is not the symbol on the map used to represent Max's home planet. Max's planet is the bottom of the V, but that symbol is at the top, right of the V. If it was from Twilo, why would it have the marking for another planet on it?

Also on the cave map There does not actually appear to be a symbol that the bottom crystal fits in. It is actually over the drawing that looks like the place where the pods and the granolyth are. Why would they draw symbols for each of the other stones to fit in but put the one that is supposed to represent Max's planet over the mountain looking drawing (I swear that it looks exactly like the pod chamber.)? That basically leaves no true marking for Max's planet.

I noticed this too! There are four definite symbols for the plants. My theory is that this whole year everything will revolve around the whirlwind symbol. That was the symbol that Michael created at the library. I think that each planet will try to influence the Podsters. First Nasadeo from the whirlwind planet came with Tess and tries to introduce her as "the bride". I believe that the fourth pod was defective (leaking in '47) and that there is no fourth podster to be found. If Roswell is renewed (please God) next year, I think we'll move on to another symbol/planet, each with another alien trying to influence the course of history. Of course, I think the true course of history is with Liz!

jjj

Question: Michael burned the sign at the library in Blind Date because the map was based on the city of Roswell and the "eye" was over that building (hence the book with the same sign came out of the "Ancient Languages" wall). If this map was based on the city of Roswell, shouldn't Nacero have known that the *G* and everything else was there, and consequently the podsters, because the crash was there? And how come that he was already there when Michael fired it? Very, very suspicious!!!

*********************************************
GraceKel & BlueCornMoon - I am totally with you all here - I think I posted my agreement many threads ago :-)
Basically - for you new to the board - there are two "major" symbols in teh alien mythology. Both are in all versions of the cave map. When the healing stones are placed in the map - the outer points of the "v" are formed by stones being placed in these two symbols (I will include the book with the backwards "LIZ" and the cave map with the healing stones in the next threads image gallery :-)
Anyway - the two symbols are as follows:
1) the ORB symbol. "Whirlwind galaxy" - I personally call it the "Yin-Yang Swirl".

This is also the symbol Nasedo projected into the sky in M2M and it is the symbol that Isabel and Max drew in the sand when they were children, it is also the symbol on the necklace that Liz took to Riverdog and it is the symbol in Into the Woods.

Second is the "Inferior Saturn Rings" symbol.
This is actually a real symbol - it is the symbol for the black moon and relates directly to Lilith. It looks like two crescent moons facing each other with a circle in the middle. It was on the cover of the "destiny" book and was what Michael burned in the ground in BD.

I feel quite strongly that the second symbol - the "Lilith" symbol has negative associations - I think it could very well be the symbol of the oppposing force (the yin/yang meaning balance and the "Lilith" symbol being force/agression/war/disharmony).
Michael has some connection to the second symbol - perhaps it represents his race?
Also - I think Tess is linked to it as well.
On the other hand, Max, Liz and Isabel all seem linked to the Orb symbol.

When I saw Michael burn the "Lilth" symbol into the ground - I literally shouted at my TV "YOU BURNED THE WRONG SYMBOL YOU IDIOT!!!!"
Right afterwards Harding arrives and then Tess - neither of whom seem to have been 100% helpful. Coincidence???????

Also here is a thought I just had as I typed this response. What if Tic-Tac and Harding were playing with each other (I just watched X-Man with my husband - can you see where I am going????) What if they were like Magneto and Xavier? People who used to friends - but who have gone different ways to ensure what they feel is "best" for Twilo. They could still be "playing chess" so-to-speak with each other. Harding could have projected the "orb" swirl (Which would be Max/Isabel/Liz and TIC-TAC's symbol) into the sky in Max to the Max - not to alert Pierce - but to alert Tic-Tac.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Oh and Shapeshifter--just wanted to let you know I loved your BEACHED WHALES-endangered species pick up here, I missed that one so glad you didn't.

If that is truly the case, and the book was found where the saturn sign was, it would stand to reason that the other symbols would represent other areas where they can find clues to their past or future. That sign did correspond to the sign on the cover of the book, so if they could determine where the other signs on the map correspond to they would probably find an artifact of some kind with a matching symbol on it.

Shoot - now I wish that I had paid more attention to the layout of the town during the episodes.

DeeDee

Also - DeeDee - I do think there is a connection, but that it dates back to ancient times! I've been reading about he Mayan ruins in Mexico with my 8 year old (he is fascinated by ancient civilizations) - and it is fascinating. It would be so fun to have the writers tie in the ancient Indian of the Americas to the aliens! I guess we will see.

I'm only on-line occassionally this week - so, if you are only on for a bit - Have a Wonderful and Safe New Years! The actual start of the new Millennium.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

DeeDee

i still think that earth was chosen b/c the present time human could be the basis for max's alien race. the way that ava reacted when she found out that liz was healed by max, seemed almost like a prophecy come true. even when she comments that zan was waiting for someone... almost like max/zan was waiting for that important person... liz. liz (the smart being) and max (the advanced being) getting together.... the marriage, kids, grandkids, etc. could be the initial blueprint of what the future alien race could be.

maybe there were other alien species landed before the podsters, crashing in 47. when the momogram said for the podsters to learn to use their powers and to combat the enemy, the enemies could have landed much earlier and could be seeking out the "one" that would be responsible for starting the advanced alien race, with the purpose of eliminating the threat. .... thus the shooting of liz. and maybe the enemies didn't know who exactly the "one" would be so they eliminated humans, whom they conceived as a threat... yvonne, sheila hubble, and the attempt on liz. and they find out who the "one" was when max healed liz... thus, a botched up job, but that wouldn't stop them from still trying to prevent liz from getting together w/ max.

just my 2 cents.

megageekgirl, *sorry* I attributed your map research to ree99. I hope you continue to probe, and please read my comment on page 9.

quote:originally posted by Starbox:
When I saw Michael burn the "Lilth" symbol into the ground - I literally shouted at my TV "YOU BURNED THE WRONG SYMBOL YOU IDIOT!!!!" Love it!

emjay, I think your theory dovetails with mine: that the dwellers of the 5 planets are descendants of Earthlings, with some wanting to take over the Earth because the lesser evolved Earthlings are mucking it up (or maybe our pollution is giving the atmosphere an attractive tint?).

And GraceKel, this also ties in with the beached whales: Valenti & Kyle need to start using some of their defensive football strategies if they are even going to "be nominated" to get to the SuperAlienBowl playoffs.

Starbox-of course you know we agreed on these theories in the past, however, with all this talk about genocide, Nazis, inferior saturn rings takes on a whole new meaning---perhaps the saturn rings were considered UNWORTHY, a race to be WIPED OUT like the Jewish plight in Nazi Europe---so I would like to think that Max and company are very similar to what they were on their planets therefore I go back to Richard Doty being a skin--possibly Max being a skin? I would hate to think that he was a genocidolist? Or maybe he was not a skin but did not share a very popular view that the skins were inferior and in fact chose to marry one? I am not sure---the clues are very confusing.

Shapeshifter--very interesting about the football strategies--since I never understood football, I figured there might be a clue in there somewhere but didn't get it-----and what did you think about the bowling---the CK and some numbers that were featured--they showed us this twice so I thought now what does this mean?

If that is truly the case, and the book was found where the saturn sign was, it would stand to reason that the other symbols would represent other areas where they can find clues to their past or future. That sign did correspond to the sign on the cover of the book, so if they could determine where the other signs on the map correspond to they would probably find an artifact of some kind with a matching symbol on it.

Shoot - now I wish that I had paid more attention to the layout of the town during the episodes.

************************************

Actually,
Michael determined that if you take a map of Roswell and position it properly (what postion is that??), when Aries is overhead (which is in April) all the symbols from the cave painting take on locations. He said that the lilith/saturn sign took on location at the library. Why Michael chose this particular symbol over all the other symbols on the drawing, I don't know, but I think you have something here. The podsters should definitely investigate more on the symbols connection to a map of Roswell, and them finding clues about they're home.Also, besides the planets aligning, the symbols taking on locations could've also had something to do with the intense visions the podsters were having about their destinies, considering the visions happened throughout the month of April.

Tara Beth, I always thought those were dry skin fragments from the destroyed husks. In fact, I laughed at the end of ARCC when it started to snow because it reminded me of the skins! I'm NOT proposing a new theory, just exposing my quirky sense of humor...

Finally - the mural of THREE ships (two in the crash and the Parker family UFO???) that has been very prominent this season

**Starbox**
mythologist, dreamer

By coming to Earth, the granilith is just doing what it was programmed to do, i.e. bring Liz Parker, the culmination of human evolution and/or alien manipulation in contact with an exiled alien king to save both their races from domination/extinction.

Max's people might not even know what the granilith is up to and are just following it blindly. After all, it is their holy grail.

Or maybe Max's people originally found the granilith on Earth and sort of stole it.
Oops.

Tara~ I believe that the stuff that you are seeing is the "skin" from the dead Skins. When they are killed the husks are destroyed and leave the feathery stuff behind.

Qfanny~ While I believe that Liz is of upmost importance to the podsters and to the granolith, I don't think she is the granolith. In MITC Nic announced that the gran wasn't on their (worlds is the concensus now, correct??) anyway, Liz has been on Earth for at least 17 years, and her powers aren't that strong yet. I definitly believe that the granolith is an object that is powerful, but needs Liz in some way.

Hope everyone has a great holiday and has a Happy New Year! Be safe!!!

OH, and Nemo thanks again for telling me about the quote thing, hope I got it right this time...:grin"

~shanna~

Okay, please behr with me! An ancient civilization, far more advanced than any we have seen, travels through the galaxies spreading DNA and "artifacts"! They visit Earth. They think: hmmmm.... interesting apes! Let's combine our "essence" with theirs and let's come back thousands of years in the future (because of distances), and see how our little experiment went! They do the same in Twilo. They leave the Granolith there. NOBODY there knows what it is or what it does, only that it does it at random, as it feels the need! They cannot communicate with it or make it work. It travels between the 5 planets. Prophesies are told, legends are created. The "Brand New World" (Skin & Bones - Max and Liz outside the Crashdown) that will bring forth peace, prosperity, next step in evolution for all, will happen when two elements join! One will be the Chosen One, the perfect one for this job, the Fifth Element, who'll be on Earth, and who, BTW, meets and mates (he he he) with the second element necessary for this task: the King who had to leave his planet to a. escape the evil ones and b. fulfill the prophesies by meeting, thwarting the enemies and mating with Element One! Although there's no physical reason for it, the King will recognize this "key" to their joint future upon sight! It just so happens that it is when both are mere babes! Together, they will, for the first time ever, discover the message from their ancient forebearers, and fulfill the ultimate goal! The Granolith will give them the power and the means to do it. The King, Max, is the Guardian. The one who will speak to it. The Key, Liz, is that: the missing piece in the machinery that will allow the Granolith to listen to/speak to Max! In order to be able to do this, both must go through certain "Rites of Passage" (LOL! Sorry - couldn't help myself!), that will make them worthy of their roles. BTW, if at first they don't succeed, they'll have to try, try again! (nothing happens / EOTW / this timeline). What are the requirements? That they must grow into their roles. They must learn and in order to do that they must suffer (darn it!). Why suffer? Because of the obstacles they must encounter and surpass because "if it isn't complicated, they are not soulmates/meant for each other/worthy of their roles". If they overcome them, they are promised a great future where they'll lead both races (5, 6 races - who cares?) to harmony and understanding, ("Aquarius" of the FIFTH Dimension going through my head! it really applies! :lol. Problems: the evil ones who will do anything in their power to stop them. Greed and Fear their worst enemies! Did I get the gist of it?

Zara: Re your post. Liz's first words in The Pilot were: "5 (five) days ago, I died..." She did die. Max brought her from the other side. By the time she opened her eyes, he had already put his hand over her wound and then behind her head.

Melodius: I think the only reason why Future Max came is that he had to stop Liz from cementing so that she may continue growing. Other than that, the poor thing, gorgeous as he was, was completely clueless and I don't think he should be blamed for erroneous statements he made regarding the gerbil. Don't you think?

The weird, assymetrical M, or Granolith mountain shape symbol, below 5th healing stone in the cave map: that could be the sign for Earth! I think the legend in Twilo says: when the Granolith disappears (and I don't think Mom sent it - it came by itself!), it'll be found there - on Earth! So... could it be that the Twilo system only has 4 planets in the Whirlwind Galaxy and they and/or the Granolith consider Earth the fifth (there goes that number again!), planet? We will all be one happy family one of these days? Max could be the King of the 4 planets but none of them is really his because "his" is the one he is on right now?

Dayneen: Michael and Isabel had the dreams in April and not December (and Max had none) because (and I don't care how many attempts the PTB make to make her look symphatetic) Tess put them in their heads. I don't think they (Mi/Is) were meant to be together. If they would have, they would have had some sort of feelings from the beginning, just as Max had them with Liz! Tess put those visions to assure them that she was the one for Max!

There is a sign that has never been explained in the Boys' bathroom at school: the hand dryer has a sticker that shows very prominently in various episodes, with the legend: DESCENDENTS! Maybe the explanation is simple: it's in the boys bathroom, when Max and Michael are talking. They are descendents of ..... Earthlings? or maybe we are descendents of Twilonians or all of us are descendents of the Granolith builders?

Just to perhaps clarify, I thought that Zan and Ava were together, or else she would have had a different answer for Liz than "Just a feeling." Like, "He never wanted to be with me, he never blah blah blah..." Like when you have a huge crush on someone and they show no romantic responsiveness, someone asks you how you know they don't love you, your answer is not going to be "Just a feeling." So I think Zan was with her, as "destined", but his heart wasn't in it. Like before.

:music: Haaa-aank had to die :music:

I just wanted to say that I totally agree with you that is a fabtabulous theory.It would explain so much

QFanny, your posts really make me laugh right now. Did you ever see the British Comedy "Allo Allo"? You sound just like the Policeman, Crabtree. (PM me if anyone doesn't understand, but wants to. The jokes a little complicated. )

DeeDee, Ah, the "Why Earth" question. I like the idea that earth was chosen because Liz would be here, etc, but I think it's more than that. In the current time frame, the Podsters and Nacedo know only that Skins are their enemies. They also know that the human brain is capable of so much power (I can't remember, did Nacedo say the Human Brain was capable of MORE that their own?)
So Alien Essence + Human Brain = Great Power.
Plus the atmosphere, being hostile to the Skins, would make it difficult for them to mount a prolonged campaign to find the hidden Royals while theyr 'mature'.
Everyone knows the human propensity for warfare, so this would be a good skill to learn. AND, given that it appears their downfall was originally due to betrayal by a close family member, and CW's comment about History repeating itself, could Zan's mother be hoping that Vilondra would not betray Zan this time, because she would learn the emotion of Love?

I have been thinking about Zan and Ava, and how he was waiting for someone. A while back, I posted a comment on a missing symbol, and how it might have been a warning to the other wather. Suppose this was so, that the protecter to the Royal 4 spotted that there was a problem with the Royal Tess, that she was not the real bride, but an imposter. Protector No 2 sees the message, misinterprets it. He switches the Royal Tess with the Dupe Ava.

For some reason, Max, Michael and Isabel hatch before Ava, so when Nacedo arrives, he calls Ava 'Tess', unaware of the switch. Max sees Liz, and for whatever reason ( Granolith, Key, 5th Element, Vessel for the Leaked Essence ) recognises, and falls in love with her.

Meanwhile, Royal Tess hatches as Ava, and because she is not the same as the others, is not recognised as Ava by Zan; he is waiting for the real Dupe Ava, the one we know as Tess.

WR

Yep, you're right, of course. I'm a bonehead.

DeeDee
**********************************
I think one of the main reasons the aliens chose Earth, was due in part to the Earth's lack of advancement. In CW's diary at silverhandprint.com She says that Earth is too close to it's star, and that the radio transmission are weak here, therefore it would be much harder for them to find the Royal 4. I think the aliens do have a connection to Earth and humans from the past, and that's one of the reasons why they chose here, but I also, think the fact that Earth is not as advanced as they are played a part in the decision too. In fact, I think if it weren't for Earth's non-advance status the podsters, mainly Max, Michael, & Isabel would probably be dead by now.

DeeDee

Maybe Twilo is like earth but thousands of years older. The Twilonians realize that their world is dying, like their resources are depreciating, all the pollution lack of ozone which could be a perfect environment for the skins to survive in. Maybe this environmental change is why the skins took over Twilo in the first place, because Twilo became more suitable for the Skins but not Zan's people (the advanced humans). So we could assume that Zan's people chose earth because it is a younger version of Twilo where the environment, natural resources and the ozone is still plenty. Also earth is a hostile environment for the Skins but a perfect environment for Zan's people. Maybe Max is here to save the Humans from being taken over by the Skins and the granolith is a tool to save earth and mankind.

Well time to go out for some sushi Keep the great ideas flowing.

Starbox, that was someone else that dubbed it the Parker Family UFO. That Arthur C. Clarke book looks familiar. I will look at jackets in the Library collection when I get back to work. Do you suppose they showed it so obvioulsly because it was the only Science Ficiton book in their props, or are the writers reading that book (and being inspired by it), or is the title a clue, or ...?

This interested ape loves your imagination blue Fascinating theory. The idea that some place like Atlantis could have thrived (and been destroyed by) an alien hybrid civilization I find intriguing

quote:NOBODY there knows what it is or what it does, only that it does it at random, as it feels the need!

I could see an Ancient Civilization worshipping it as if it were some godlike thing. Perhaps Lonnie was mistaken or misinformed... The granilith was indeed a religious artifact and possibly worshipped as such, but not by the Twilonians. Perhaps it was worshipped by Earthlings (it's assumed Lonnie meant Twilonians but perhaps she didn't or just didn't know who was doing the worshipping). The Granilith is left on Earth but since the Earthlings can't activate it (simply know the awesome power it's capable of -- seeing it activated themselves or being told)... they worship it. If I were going to try and work some prophecy in here... perhaps it's an Earthling (a chosen one) that will come along one day and be able to activate this thing? Hence bringing an end to alien tyranny on Earth (and beyond).... :cough:Liz:cough:

I might be the only one here.. but does anyone else think supposed superadvanced alien civilizations worshipping *anything* odd? Whether it be this Granilith or the Royals themselves. I keep thinking of STARGATE in this circumstance. I don't know how many of y'all have seen the movie, but the villain in it took human form and was worshipped like a god (not unlike the pharoahs of Egypt). Perhaps when Nikolas said in HARVEST that the Royals were literally "worshipped", he didn't necessarily mean by Twilonians (like my Gran. idea above), he also meant Earthlings. The Royals also made emissary visits to Earth (or physically visited)? "The People" Nik refers to are the "subjects" (slaves) of Twilo.. aka Earthlings (the ancient race of people bluecornmoon is eluding to above ). King Zan (or his dad) as Ramases?? (ugh... I think the drugs I'm taking for this minor cold are starting to kick in )

quote:Prophecies are told, legends are created. The "Brand New World" (Skin & Bones - Max and Liz outside the Crashdown) that will bring forth peace, prosperity, next step in evolution for all, will happen when two elements join! One will be the Chosen One, the perfect one for this job, the Fifth Element, who'll be on Earth, and who, BTW, meets and mates (he he he) with the second element necessary for this task: the King who had to leave his planet to a. escape the evil ones and b. fulfill the prophesies by meeting, thwarting the enemies and mating with Element One!

I really LOVE the way you think blue.

Playing with your idea a bit... if Humans/Earthlings are "slaves" to the Twilonians (or considered such) at all ... could their be a Moses (a prophecied one) to arise amongst these slaves? Moses = Liz, hybrid Max or both?? Since some have speculated Liz and Max are "one soul" or soulmates when they're together form one (supreme) being... the combination of human Liz and alien/human hybrid (King) Max the equivalent of Moses in this story? A Moses that won't only restore the balance on Twilo but also liberate/save Earth?

I'm a little scared to think what might happen if some of us Liz Mythologists ever got in one room together. We probably could sit in there and debate for days straight on the theories / speculations we brew on this thread!

Melodious

*Try* and be nice to Tess and you get shot down in here, I see how it is! Well, as a raging Dreamer, I have difficulty including Tess in the fold - no question. However, with my newfound Rebounderness, I'm currently trying to give the girl the benefit of the doubt. I really am trying!!

That said (ahem)... Have y'all seen the storyboard for WIPE OUT posted at the WB?

http://www.thewb.com/roswell/behind/wipeout/

The final scene was obviously different then what they originally planned. The storyboard - to me - gives me the impression that they were going to put much more emphasis on Tess being VERY effected by Max's torture by Nikolas (in a way that if Liz were in Tess' position, she'd be reacting the same way). Hence, Tess (seemingly mostly from her want to protect Max), became so enraged she unleashed this awesome power saving everyone (particularly Max) and annhilating the Skins. The Podsters are in awe of what she's doing/done and Tess doesn't seem to know what happened afterwards... she's dazed and Max goes to her (bleck).

Like I said... I'm *trying* to be more supportive of Tess, but a scene like the above just *bothers* me for my want to have LIZ the center of the universe (particularly Max's universe) and the one who saves the day... NOT Tess (of course Liz IS the one who saved the day more or less in WO, but I think y'all know what I mean). Post-WO, I was still fairly anti-Tess, and having the pod squad indebted to her (and Max, betrayed by Liz, and just discovering the betrayals of Michael & Isabel, hence leaning even *more* on Tess)... was hard to swallow.

Of course, you can have all the "fire" power in the universe... but if you don't have the brains/plan to back it all up, it basically goes all to hell. Tess can be more powerful than all the podsters and the Skins combined... but if there isn't a plan / order behind it (Liz's plan destroyed the alien device on the billboard) - it would have made no difference. No Skins, but no humans either... and the firewall didn't 'wipe out' (ahem) Nikolas anyway. Perhaps if the device was never destroyed in the first place, that energy burst of Tess' wouldn't have happened. It still disturbs me why exactly it happened when it did (just after Maria destroyed the device). It really seemed that TPTB *wanted* us to see the seeming connection between the destruction of the device and Tess' firewall. An allusion to human ingenuity combined with hybrid (alien) power will lead to victory? Liz + Tess = Victory... My little brother would be cheering for Max at this point I think (that lucky devil ).

I just wish Kyle would hurry up and get his swerve in gear... give Tess some of that sweet human lovin' Max enjoys so much (His lovin' from Liz that is... calm down Panty Brigaders ).... just please keep that girl away from Max!! Call me shallow, but that is my single, biggest detrement to liking the girl. She's still adamant with this d**n "destiny"!! "Pleasant" Max / Tess scenes are the vinegar on this open Dreamer wound in my heart... anything that would even slightly elude to Max considering Tess in *that* way... it's just deplorable (sorry to the few Hussies I know that lurk here).

Melodious

StarBox: Sorry for the delay but .... they are ready...phiuuuu!!!!

Tristan: Part of Mom's message (cut scene) was that the podsters mission was to learn as much as they could, save THEIR PLANET Earth and then come to Twilo to save them! One of the big mysteries of life for me is why did they cut that part! Either the editor was clueless or Katims decided, at the last minute, to go with Tess faking that message!

I'm pretty sure this discussion was opened here in the past... but what happened to those ideas that Nikolas might have been a Shapeshifting Protector - at least at one time - like Nasedo? Did they go anywhere? I had a few thoughts concerning this theory (don't know if they've already been pondered).

Nikolas was a traitor, but none of the Podians realized it... hence they sent him along in the Earthbound spaceship (Nik's intent to sabotage the whole project)?

I've been pondering these ideas recently because it bugs me to no end why Tess' firewall didn't seem to effect him and he seemed to have a husk, yet never peeled?

I can't believe I didn't think of this before... there might be a plausible connection to Nik being a Podian traitor and tying him to the Skins on Earth. According to Pierce in WR, they held an alien 3 years in captivity (presumedly from 1947 to 1950)... according to Whitaker's diary, the Skins arrived on Earth in (*ding ding ding*) 1950. Could the Skins have saved podian traitor Nikolas from the white room? Nikolas is so damaged he needs a new Husk, however, (like Nasedo's possible podian Husk) Nik's husk is different then that of the Skins' Husks. It's more resilient / efficient? Hence Tess' firewall not effecting him and no peeling.

If this were at all true, this would definitely put a twist on some of the things Nik has said or some things said about him...

HARVEST

"And who do we have here? That gleam of dull stupidity in the eyes. If I'm not mistaken, you must be the king's second in command. I killed you myself in your last life. Ready to die again?"

WIPE OUT

ISABEL: What about Nicholas? What can he do?

COURTNEY: All the things you can...times a thousand. But the thing you should be the most afraid of...is this.

(Courtney points to her head)

COURTNEY: He can get inside of your head and take anything that he wants. Basically, he rapes you of your memories and your thoughts.

**NOTE: So Nikolas can do everything the podsters can eh?? How interesting. Yet the podsters powers are presumedly human... aren't they??**

****
ISABEL: The last time we were together, you awakened something in me. I remembered things from our past. You and me.

NICHOLAS: Our forbidden meetings.

**If Nikolas was on the Podian side, he might have been some kind of security officer or something in the Palace. Hence, he could have wooed Princess Vilandra or something (he did say he was a ladies' man once). Although he was far below her station (hence making the meetings "forbidden")... it wouldn't have been a capital crime though if she was discovered. Little did Vilandra (or anyone) know Nikolas was working for Khivar. Just a thought.**

*****

"What happened to you, guy? You used to determine the fate of entire armies with the flip of a coin. Luckily for me, you continue to put your faith in the wrong people."

***Nikolas could have been talking about himself here. King Max trusted him in the past life... little did Kingy know, Nik was a big ol' TRAITOR***

I hope that was enough Liz Mything to last me a weekend, because I probably won't be able to post anything until Tuesday (torturous), although I'll be lurking . Going to Texas with the padres (wee).

Ciao everyone, MUST catch a plane now!!

Mel

As for Ancient Civilizations or other beings. It think it's a common trait in sci-fi that most beings workship a Supreme Being, or Creator, and the less you know, the more you fear and are in awe of! The descendants of earthlings in Stargate feared the being because, although disguised as a young man, he could cause them pain and punished them for everything!

We have found miriad signs, which show that the writers portray Max as the Savior who sacrifices himself on behalf of everybody. Liz as the Virgin Mary. So.. it does make sense that together they will make the unstoppable force that will vanquish their enemies and bring forth peace and tranquility to all mankind/twilokind !!!

The final scene was obviously different then what they originally planned. The storyboard - to me - gives me the impression that they were going to put much more emphasis on Tess being VERY effected by Max's torture by Nikolas (in a way that if Liz were in Tess' position, she'd be reacting the same way). Hence, Tess (seemingly mostly from her want to protect Max), became so enraged she unleashed this awesome power saving everyone (particularly Max) and annhilating the Skins. The Podsters are in awe of what she's doing/done and Tess doesn't seem to know what happened afterwards... she's dazed and Max goes to her (bleck).

Like I said... I'm *trying* to be more supportive of Tess, but a scene like the above just *bothers* me for my want to have LIZ the center of the universe (particularly Max's universe) and the one who saves the day... NOT Tess (of course Liz IS the one who saved the day more or less in WO, but I think y'all know what I mean). Post-WO, I was still fairly anti-Tess, and having the pod squad indebted to her (and Max, betrayed by Liz, and just discovering the betrayals of Michael & Isabel, hence leaning even *more* on Tess)... was hard to swallow.....

Hehehe... Kyle get his "swerve in gear"? I love it!

Your post makes a rather good point, Melodious, one which dreamers everywhere can find comforting. It appears that Max still doesn't want Tess as his mate even though: 1) Tess has been extremely supportive of him; 2) Tess came to his defense and - possibly - saved his life in WO; 3) Max evidently felt close enough to Tess to want her to come to New York with him, and 4) Liz has betrayed him deeply (he thinks).

If Max can still want Liz when all these factors are pulling him elsewhere, then how can we expect that he will ever want anyone else but Liz? Maybe this is exactly what The Powers That Be (booming voice here) want us to see: that no matter what happens in Roswell's future, there will be this link can't be shattered.

Up until Blind Date both Max and Liz have not seen the V constellation. Neither was there when Michael and Isabel went to the library. They saw it in their minds before it fully appeared in the sky and didn't realize it's importance.

The book's name is Childhood's End

Could Max have changed the course of his destiny by saving Liz making her his destiny because he used his powers to bring her back from death.

There has to be more story behind his past as king of his home planet.Could There have been a first wife?

Dreamer mythologist applesaucer behrien

As for the behind-the-scenes info on Wipeout - it was really weird to me. It was VERY different from what was shot - in the script evidently we were supposed to feel like Max was DYING when Nicolas was torturing him??? I did not get that at all.
Another thing that was odd to me - in the script they say that Tess is "like a Phoenix that rises from the ashes" - right when WO aired there was alot of discussion on the signs and symbols board about the bird that was on the Skin's bus - and much freeze-framing and web research on the differences between eagles and phoenixes later - it was concluded that it was a PHOENIX.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Thanks!!

Moon