The following is a LONG summary (oxymoron?) of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I try to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled; however, not all theories are covered in-depth (remember, I have limited human brain capacity, so can only retain only so many theories). This intro is not up-dated from the last couple of thread – I just don’t have the time due to end of the year and holiday stuff. So, hopefully, the next rendition will be a complete up-date (I really want to include the Life Bonds theory and the Hero Journey outline, plus some other great ideas that have been set forth!). Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance!

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions – or is it time zones? - recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz and felt a special connection to her. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that connection irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t let go of the connection, but after events in NY is willing to give their friendship another try, and that there is MORE to that connection as we have always assumed. Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions re: that connection have been answered in this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz – whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. After MITC, we now KNOW that LIZ HAS CHANGED (or is changing – maybe the change that FM said she had to have occur, and wasn’t letting happen!) as a result of Max “bringing her back,” but Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply that something more is involved, beyond a mere acquisition of a power or two – but more on that later! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squad’s planet? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? But if so, and she is part alien, why did she disappear in Wipeout? She did cause the Skin’s shed skin to disintegrate, but that could have other reasons for occurring.)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” and romanced a predecessor to Liz – but was called back to Twilo, leaving his true love behind.
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz? Could Tess/Ava be a ruse to protect the true queen – Liz - from being discovered before she has time to develop her powers that would protect her and her loved ones?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.)
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies, such as the key to operating the Granolith – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her?
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Twilo? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Granolith and the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story – Ava had heard this story foretold during her previous life on Twilo? ;
· Could it just be Liz's extremely advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the many theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special all his human life – and he never connected with Ava the way one would have expected if she was his mate even though they had (we assume) spent their entire life on Earth together. I guess we will never know unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones (all 5 of them w/ Liz present) – anything is possible? We don’t know what happened to his body.) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?) – Liz looks directly at Max as he gets off the bus, with a sort of recognition. They obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were friends and lab partners more recently. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that we know are all human (according to Harding in WR). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking already – yet dormant – powers existing within her? Ava’s reaction seems to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle? There seems to be more to it than that! Though Kyle may develop his own powers someday??

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins – are her parents her true birth parents or is she adopted like the Evans kids? Does she have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race? Why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble? And does how all this play into the connection with Max and her new found “abilities/powers” (The first known appearing to be astral projection.) Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur? We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the Twilo conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. Rath sarcastically comments about how hard it is to travel through space to Earth – thus the need to possess humans long-distance – but the podsters obviously got here somehow (and fairly quickly if the comments concerning the warring for 50 years is correct - I will explain this if you don’t get what I mean – just ask) – so travel to and from Earth must be possible and not unreasonable. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ people from long ago? And how does the Granolith fit into this? We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Whitaker and Courtney seemed to think it was a means to their salvation – but why? It is obviously of great importance – maybe the Holy Grail of the V constellation? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? If it is only a transport system, I don’t they would have had such a concerned reaction – so their must be more to it than that. Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the prophesized protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time (apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way before their discovery?). (So, many questions – still! … !)

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his original “destiny” on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a human alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction – maybe she had “heard” the prophecy or Zan’s searching was tied to it somehow! Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the podsquad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are “human.” Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters? Though the Dupes do seem to have memories of their past lives – at least Lonnie appears to - we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time!) Are the visions Max’s alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! What else is stored deep within there, and can he prevent having it MRd out of him? There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history destined to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the secrets being kept by the podsters from one-another. We now know that Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself Zan was killed through treachery on Twilo, then Zan-reborn was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no?? Maybe we make our own destiny with a little help from our friends.

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons. Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again. And the promo for ARCC looks like he is still committed to Believing in Liz – thus, following his heart back to her!

The symbolism throughout the both seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often. Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! There is a prominent picture of a Ship between Max and Maria when they are discussing his love for Liz. The old Scandinavian tale of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his score "The Flying Dutchman", symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love. In desperation the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful. Senta, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears that she will be faithful to the Dutchman unto death. However, in doing so, she betrays her finace Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she was trying to save. The Dutchman puts out to sea, but his vessel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned. HOWEVER - the pair are now seen RISING from the now-CALMED waters, TRANSFIGURED and REDEEMED by their SACRIFICE. Salvation is no impossibly idealistic dream, but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth.

Then there is the dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. We are currently in the "year of the dragon." Here are some Dragon “meanings”:
· In the Chinese Horoscope, the Dragon is in the FIFTH ranking order.
· The Dragon's corresponding western sign is ARIES.
· The Dragon’s ruling planet is VENUS.
Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her (unless dragons have been popping up on other characters’ windows?). But since this is the year she discovers that she has “powers,” it is reasonable to think of her as being “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon … as the Dragon. (Thank You Meloudious 1, Starbox and Bluecornmoon for your thoughts on the Dragon!)

There are lots of others! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent and clever for that!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? Could it be Liz? (Though most accept that Tess/Ava were the “bride.”) Why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day.) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. (Zan and Ava didn’t seem to be working at producing off-spring.) Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts – why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection?) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the podsquad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!)

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, and connecting with Max to save his life in NY.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max ‘fall out of love with her’). She could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we found out is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment (who knows who to believe on this one??). Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” or complement Max, and bring him into “balance”? Could she possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection, at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing, and how the visions play into the powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “planted” visions like Tess is able to do). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps!) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions of Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifter, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? The vision seems similar to that Liz gets in SH when see “sees” the orb being buried. Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has this come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run”? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully, and the third being the path we are on now!) OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY, and it prevented him from turning it over to the other aliens - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug him – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed! Does he really “know” as Kyle seems to think Max always does?

I want to add something about Liz’s hero journey here, but it is late, and I am tired. So it will have to wait – but trust me – Liz’s appears to be taking that journey!

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the podsquad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Ummmmm?

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! TEOTW occurs in 2014! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Recently, “Run, Lola, Run” was referred to (Surprise) as the story of Liz’s life. Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the podsquad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seem to be confined to their husks. But the Skins and Max’s alien predecessor’s kind seem to have been from different races. Many of us think that the podsquad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without notice? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race of aliens on Earth (a third race of aliens)? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? If Ava knew that Liz had been changed by Max’s healing, shouldn’t Harding have known? AND if he did know, why didn’t he divulge this information? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee” – and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection.

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across. I have added dates from the Crashdown Timeline and the Whitaker Diaries, but they are questionable, and have no basis in episodes aired, so take them with a grain of salt.

1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
1993 – Maria’s Dad leaves
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
11/11/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex wind up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max & Liz share their first kiss (Heatwave)
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this – WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

I finally got to see ARCC again last night when they replayed it, and wondered if anyone else noticed that it was the "23rd" annual Roswell something (I couldn't read the rest of the sign. There are those numbers adding to "5" again!!

Mel and Bluecommon - you two have been working overtime with great ideas! I'm hoping I can get as much of these new or expanded theories in the new intro!

BTW - I love the idea of getting us all in one room together! I had a blast at our little Northwest lunch we had a few weeks ago! Maybe there will be another LA gathering and someone will be willing to coordinate a "Mythologist - RBI" get-together!! It would be a blast! I would definitely be there!!!

Well - back to "real" life stuff! They shut us down awfully quickly this time, so I'm glad I came on to check! Have A WONDERFUL NEW YEAR'S EVE and DAY!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Iam just curious about your opinions about Liz and her connection between the Royal 4.

I don't think that Liz is half alien though. I think that she was changed in someway i.e.powers. Whether or not she was changed because max healed her or brought her back from the dead who know. She has a part to play in the royal 4 destiny.
I would really like to see what there going to do with Liz and her new found powers. Is she the key to destroying the Royal 4 enemies?

The history behind Max and Tess has never been dealt with, could she has been a traiter in his former life?Did he marry her for polictical reasons? Was there a first wife?

Anway - here is the opening image gallery to compliment Zero's introduction:
Liz and max with the "V" pattern holding hands:

Liz as Venus:

Liz and Max as twin souls - notice how they come together to form the
"swirl" on the orb activated during Sexual Healing. Also - notice the
"Emergency" sign behind them - when they come to gether it reads "MERGE"

Liz as the keeper of/key to the granolith:
Picture of the granolith chamber in the crashdown:

Sheila Hubble:

Liz as the Virgin Mary/key to Salvation:

The dragon on Liz's window:

The "destiny book" (could it be a prophecy book??) with the name "LIZ" backwards next to a symbol that looks like the granolith:

The cave map with the healing stones in position:

Images thanks to crashdown, shapeshifter, redhawk and
www.theddd.com
THANKS!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Thread 23 is up at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology/Thread23ARCC2.htm , using a DOS-based ftp program ***pats self on back** because my parents have A(so slow)OL. And anyone who is into praying, please urge the USPS Express folks on so I can get my spare glasses soon (my usual pair being at the bottom of the deep blue sea).

So if Tess ever gets a handle on Liz's importance to the survival of Earth, will she likely shine them all on? Of course, the Kyle thing would color her view.

Zero, on the number 23 in ARCC: pretty cosmic that we were on Thread 23 when it aired, don't you think?

Anyway, it was written in the last thread about the possibility that Nicholas may have been with the Royal Four in the crash. After re-reading CWW's journal, I think this may be a possibility. He was a General "in the palace at home" according to the journal. So, he was trusted by the Royals, and since he was a general, he probably would have been involved in this project to come to earth. When the betrayal took place, they may not have realized that Nicholas was involved, and sent him to earth anyway.
Another interesting tidbit in the diary is that CWW comments that Nicholas had trouble trusting the skins. If they came to earth after he did, he may not have known who Kavar was choosing to send, and wouldn't know if he could trust them or not.

Starbox-I never got to comment on those pics you gave us on the last thread--those were great and there is one in ARCC as well I noticed when Liz opened the door to speak with Max at the Crashdown --ufo light over Liz's head did you catch that one? Another thing I don't think I ever mentioned this on this board before but it was an observation I made last season(it doesn't seem to apply in this season---which ticks me off somewhat cuz its that old consistency problem rising up again but I figured I would mention.)

An observation I made last season was that in the crashdown when Liz would be talking to her human friends there they would show the two soda fountain heads one would have an alien head on it and the other would be black but when Liz was talking to one of the aliens there would be TWO ALIEN HEADS. Did anyone else notice this? Some examples, not all but a few can be found in Morning After Liz talking to Maria, Liz talking to Michael in Missing, Liz talking to Alex in Blood Bros. and right at beginning of TLV Liz comes out with coffee pot as she walks past Michael we see faucets with two alien heads on them. Of course now this season they are not following thru on this which kind of bugs me but I did notice it almost all of last season, did anyone else catch this?

I put this out on the Sign and Symbols thread but it is pretty quiet, so even though it is a bit OT, am going to put here for your comments:

I was rewatching Max to the Max this morning and when Isabel was paging through the 'Destiny' book I noticed that on Max's forehead were several symbols. One, in the center, was the V shape, which we now know is the royal seal (from MITC), to the right of the V is what appears to be the number 4 (standing for the 4 royals?). To the left is another symbol that I didn't recognize. Now I wasn't on the Crashdown/Fan Forum site last spring and don't know if you discussed this or not after the episode. If so, what did everyone think? What is the symbol to the left and what was the take on the meaning?

I cannot tell you how many times I have watched this episode and NEVER noticed these symbols on his head before. Thanks.

I was rewatching Max to the Max this morning and when Isabel was paging through the 'Destiny' book I noticed that on Max's forehead were several symbols. One, in the center, was the V shape, which we now know is the royal seal (from MITC), to the right of the V is what appears to be the number 4 (standing for the 4 royals?). To the left is another symbol that I didn't recognize.
I cannot tell you how many times I have watched this episode and NEVER noticed these symbols on his head before. Thanks.[/B]

Reguru - here is the screencap of the destiny book from Max to the Max.

GraceKel - I did not notice the fountian last season - but I will be sure to watch for it when I rewatch season one!

Shapeshifter/Norma - about the Arthur C Clarke book - I have a feeling it is an important clue. I cant find a good synopsis online but basically the back of the book (I looked today at earth) says that aliens arrive on earth and create a "perfect utopian society" - they used the term GOLDEN AGE. But 50 years later - the humans realize that they have given up more than they gained......and that the aliens are not benevolent after all. Made me think of TWILO and the GOLDEN AGE that Max refused to be a part of........... I dont know - but seems to be relevant just from what I read. maybe someone who has read the book can tie it in more.

Kristine - It wasnt my theory about Niko - but I think it is a good one. Someone on this thread mentioned that perhaps Nik was the dupes "protector" (becuaes of his repeated comments about hating NYC) and I thought that was an excellent observation. :-)

One last thought - when I posted the granolith picture I noticed that the base of the granolith - if you take the white and the black part together - looks exactaly like a DIAMOND (the stone not the geometric shape).

**Starbox**
mythologist, dreamer

Did anyone else notice that on the cave painting there's a symbol that looks like the granilith rock. When Michael placed the healing stones into the painting, the stone that represented Twilo position in the V constellation, was placed in the granilith's symbol.

My husband says he read it many years ago. The basic story is about aliens who visit the earth because humans are about to evolve. The aliens arrive a long time before the evolution is supposed to happen so they can take stuff back to their planet chronicling humanity. One earthling smuggles back on their spaceship and gets to see the alien homeland.

There's much more to it, but seeing as how it's been 30 years since he read the book he won't risk saying any more than he doesn't think the story had any robots in it. Whatever.

That's about 1/4 cent value, I'm sure. You all should kick me off the thread for posting such vague info! I'll go look for his stack of paperbacks and see if we still have a copy...

zero, i have lots of questions for you. please email me @ crazi4u@lycos.com.
thanx!

quinta

Dayneen--yes I too noticed that he placed the bottom stone in where the granilith is housed as well as the pod chamber. So what do you think this means? Are the pod squad being sold a bill of goods about the V representing 5 planets or does the V have several representations? Or what?

Oh one more thing I noticed rewatching M2TM the other day---just as MAXEDO is about to enter the mirrormaze he stops and looks back at the sheriff--beside MAXEDO in the frame is one of those HARVEST WHEELS? hmmmmmm?

Dayneen: Could it be that the pod chamber mountain symbol, where the Granolith is housed, represents Earth and TPTB (Mom, *G*, etc.), consider this one Max's planet? And the system in Twiloland only has 4 planets and we are the 5th one?

Shapeshifter: I noticed that the "Signs, Symbols..." thread by Rostafehrian is over 250 posts. May I suggest you drag it, in its entirety, to your site? It's worth keeping for posterity, don't you think?

StarBox: It's in the mail.. only.. we got 2 feet of snow and the post office and airports did not work at all today! They just received packages and sold stamps! Please a bit more patience space girl!!

Dido just sang in Sat. Night Live!

shapeshifter: I see that you've done your Maxcedo duty, and let me off the hook. I hope you get your glasses soon. What a drag!

GraceKel: Do you remember last summer how we talked about the flower delivery and I questioned the handwritten note? I thought that the shapeshifter-as-Topolsky that sent the flowers successfully mimicked Max's handwritting. There was nothing on the note that said it was from Max. Well, I find myself wondering again because of Isabel leaving Michael a present from Maria. Was that in Michael's handwriting? It seemed when Michael lifted the posty note that the writing on the card was different. It would suggest that Isabel used her powers to write gift tag.... Which if that is the case, then I think we should revisit Crazy and the Topolsky - Tess - Harding - TicTac triple agent theory. But truthfully, I don't know if I am up for it.

Nice to see everyone, and YES. I have a new keyboard. It's so nice to type a B again!

BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB

I revisited the alternate ending with the embrace and my first thought was "WOW" Liz's head actually make the center of the orb symbol. It was the way that Max positioned his head that made me notice it. It was like his head moved out of the center and into line with the circle part. This left Liz right in the center. Did anyone else think this?

On to the cave map. I definitely think that the mountain looking symbol is the pod chamber/granolith place. But I am having a hard time putting the map into perspective. Is it a map of the five planets, a map of Roswell telling locations of artifacts, or could it be a map showing exactly where the podsters were placed just in case something happened and the home planet needed to find them? The last would explain why there is no symbol for the home planet. Kind of like a big arrow saying "Here they are". Or it could be a combination of one or all of these. But when the stars are aligned they do point directly to the chamber.

I have been unsuccessful trying to decipher the book. If the writer's copied a language I don't know what it could be.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

May all have a wonderful and healthy one.

DeeDe

BluC, Signs & Symbols is at http://www.ulink.net/plum/MiscThreads
And many Blessings to the good folks at Ulink (my ISP) who never complain about how much stuff I have on their server for a measley $11/mo.

Desert with family calls. Ta Ta.

Have a Happy and safe New Year everyone!!!!
**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Evidence:
- her behaviour in Wipeout, interrogating Courtney, and protecting Max with the flame thrower
- her total unquestioning support of Max 'whatever you decide, I'll go along with' attitude. At first I thought this was just her playing the devoted mate, but remember Harding's words to Max 'my only job is to protect you'
- no one seems to acknowledge her directly as the bride
- she is so much more powerful than the other royals, and I'm convinced this is not just because she grew up with Harding

I don't know if I'm explaining this very well, but her actions have been so inconsistent, and I think this could explain it. She's trying to be someone she's not, which is why she is constantly switching personalities. Her morals also remind me a lot of Harding the horndog's.

However, I am also sure that she is not aware of this. She really believes that she is the bride, I'm convinced the bride perished in the leaky pod, and Harding made a substitute from the essence of one of the other protectors who died in the crash. Perhaps the substituted essence had some former connection with CWW, which could explain Tess' strange behaviour at the Whittakers house in Harvest. Remember Tess' alleged recovered (or planted) memories "I remember when you loved me", she may remember being loved, but not necessarily by whom. She just assumes it must be Max because he is her 'mate'.

Harding probably felt that he could kill 2 birds with one stone by having Max accept a protector as his bride - covering up the loss of the true bride and what better way to protect Max and Co. than by having a protector within the royal circle where the previous betrayal came from.

Anyway, bringing all of this back to Liz, takes me back to my favoured theory of the bride's soul being reincarnated in Liz, hence the recognition by Max. But, now it's
human Liz who Max knows and loves not the former bride who he doesn't remember, although his Zan essence or soul recognised her in Liz on an unconscious level. I am sure Max is not aware of this, after all he is also a different person from his former self.

Please be kind if you think this is repetitive drivel.

I was just thinking why doesn't Max have an alien mythology thread? I guess Liz's thread and Max kind of go together. I just thought that was pretty interesting.

HUGGYBEHR: That is a pretty interesting thought re: Tess being a protector rather then the bride. That would be so SWEET since it would somewhat explain the reason why Max has no feelings for Tess. But how would you explain Zan not having feelings for Ava? Wasn't only one of the pods leaking?

Well eveyone have a Great NEW YEAR!!!

Instead of partying it up with all my friends at a big celebration bash, I've decided to go to my sister's place and cook a nice dinner for her. She's pregnant and is suffering from major morning sickness that seems to never end. POOR THING!! Can't even go into the kitchen without being nauseated. Well, gonna celebrate with some Playstation, boardgames, movies and +++wine!!
See you guys all later.

I have a really dumb question if someone doesn't mind answering. Do you think that TPTB have thought about Roswell and all the theories that your brilliant minds have thought of?? I mean, watching the show and things are not really getting answered but when I come in here, its like a light bulb going off in my head.

I have heard that TPTB do come to the FanForum boards to read what everyone says. I cannot verify if this is true or not, but I post assuming anything I say can be read by TPTB. I would not know what threads they read. I have heard that the staff prints off whatever they find interesting. I think JK said that they do try to stay current with the Crashdown information and I know that KKB has refered to the fans and Crashdown during a radio interview.

I don't think that we will ever know what is read or not by TPTB. But you should know that we do have celebrity lurkers on all the boards, and post accordingly.

I feel pretty awful because I really don't have any new ideas to post! But lets dwell on the granolith a bit. I think TPTB was really brilliant in bringing in the granolith for the second season. It can be used for all sorts of things, like a timemachine, travelling through space, to save earth and Twilo, power to heal, a communicator, the possiblilities are endless.
Who knows they might not even answer all the questions this season, which will give them plenty of material for season 3!

Well all that matters is that we make sure Roswell gets renewed for another full season.
It would horrible if it ended with all these questions unanswered.

I just finished examining Whitaker's diary and i have come up with several observations and possible answers to questions. Behr with me please.

First, is Nicholas a skin. Yes. According to Whitaker Nicholas was with them when they arrived and he was running into walls because of his "skin". Whether or not he came with them I am not certain; however, I think that he would have known more about the rash and the trip to the military faacility if he had been a protector of the podsters. On 7/4/1950, Whitaker states that they have been listening to our primitive communications and have heard nothing about a landing anywhere. She also states that they thought they would know the royal four on sight and that Nicholas is thinking of sending them out on reconnaissance missions becausse their protectors must have done a good job of hiding them. This would indicate that nicholas doesn't know that they couldn't exit from their pods immediately upon arrival. I think he have known that they had to complete their development process in their pods if he had even been a protector of the dupes. She also states much later when she goes to congress that now she has access to the mountains of paperwork about UFO sightings etc. and can look for clues.

I think that it was one of those reconnaissance missions to NY that the dupes are found and Nicholas knows right away that they are not the true royals.

Whitaker tells us that back home Nicholas was a general in the palace of the King. As we have seen in MITC, he must also now be a general or higher with Kavar. I think that due to his status in the Kin's court and his obvious relationship with Vilandra, he knew of the Queens hybrid plan. Vilandra probably mentioned it to Nicholas and Kavar and that caused their plans to be advanced. Thus explaining why Nicholas doesn't know everything about the pods.

Whitaker decribes Nicholas as "a cold ruthless one who has no qualms about killing his own". He displays this sometime after Jan. 8, 1958 by killing other skins (many her friends) in front of Whitaker. In her writing just prior she talks about how some are so frustrated with things that they are thinking of leaving (deserting). My reference to this date is due to the single word "How..?" placed in her diary on that date. How could mean "how could he do such a thing?" or "how do we leave", explaining why her mother had to save her from being killed. She continues to mention Nicholas's obssion with the deserters and how she isn't a truant officer. Did he place her in charge of taking care of those who desert?

How did Nicholas survive Tess's fireball. One theory presented by Huggybehr is that Tess is a hybrid shapeshifter/protector but doesn't know it. Whitaker herself claims that the shapeshifer has greater powers. (good theory BTW) It really fits. But as for Nicholas, he was the one who came up with the idea of cloning the aliens in connections to their skins. However, it was going to take twenty years for the skins to be ready. That gave him plenty of time to perfect the cloning techniques and create for himself a perfect skin or skins hidden away from the others. I don't think that the aliens die immediately when the shins are destroyed, but soon after if they can not get into another skin. They obviously weren't in the skins when they arrived, because Whitaker's first page says that they had one day in the skins and that was 2/2/1950 (the year they arrived).

On 4/18/2000 when Pierce leaves for Roswell, Whitaker refers to the orbs as being "insignificant in value to the scheme of things in the galaxy". Obviously she knows something about them, but doesn't think it even worth the effort to investigate. Arre they of value at all? Are they merrly a device used by Nesado and Tess to show a Mom-o-gram? Or was the Mom-o-gram real? I would think that if they were known as a communications device, Whitaker would have thought them of some value and wanted to know who they communicated with. Why did the orbs set off a signal when activated? Did they communicate with the Queen on Twilo and/or also with the leaders on the other planets that the royal four were ready? Was Nesado's warning against using them a rouse to make them do it? Can someone refrresh me here, did Brody buy his device before or after his abduction?

I have more, but I will come back later. My hunger is getting the best of me.

Please reply and tell me what you think.

4everyoung

It was you............Max to Liz

GraceKel, Bluecornmoon, & Megageekgirl,
Loved all your theories on the granilith symbol in the cave painting. I have nothing to add to it though, still thinking.

I don't think the fact that he was running into walls proves anything. If he had been another type of alien, and had to get used to being in a human body, he still would have had trouble seeing. (We have no idea what types of problems Nasedo may have first had when he came here. He had 50 years to get used to being a shapeshifter)

Maybe when Nicholas's original attempt to intercept the podsters before they arrived on earth failed, Kavar sent the skins to earth. Since Nicholas then would be expecting them, this would be why he was there with them when they arrived.

I do agree that it is probably hard to believe that Nicholas could have been held in the white room by the military. He certainly would have known more about the crash then he appeared to know if this were the case. The fact that CWW knew nothing of this, however, does not prove anything since she commented in her journal that Nicholas did not trust the skins, so it is doubtful that he would tell them anything.

Hey huggybehr!! First of all, *great* post. I did bring up the WO storyboard / Tess in the last thread, although I don't know if you got the idea directly from anything I speculated (others speculated about it as well). btw, I'm still in TX (Nebraska clobbered Northwestern ). QFanny It's not all that much warmer down here in San Antonio QF, it's about 40 degrees outside at the moment. It's an improvement, but not a vast one from the NE icebox. ::grumbles in the corner of her hotel room::

quote:However, I am also sure that she is not aware of this. She really believes that she is the bride, I'm convinced the bride perished in the leaky pod, and Harding made a substitute from the essence of one of the other protectors who died in the crash.

I'm really intrigued by this idea. I can see one of the other 'protectors' stepping up... volunteering (SIMPLY to replace what was lost, not due to any special attachment she/he has to the Royals or the King) to become the "young bride". This 'protector' is changed, reprogrammed with "back up" (?) BRIDE memories and put in the pod. Although can Harding do this? Would he have been capable or had the resources? Not to mention ALSO make the Dupe (Ava) and drop her off in NYC with the others?

Concerning Tess' (possible) connection to Whitaker... I really don't feel there is one. Although if Tess is so much stronger than the (other) podsters... why didn't she just blast Whitaker when she held her captive and tortured her? Well, for the simple reason that she *wouldn't* have been protecting the Royals at that moment (in this theory, she wouldn't be a royal). Tess' firewall in WO came about because (I feel) she was specifically *protecting* the Royals (particularly Max, blah); Tess just doesn't realize that she was answering to her inherent, ORIGINAL programming, and NOT the YB's programming (although I'm sure it probably contributed). LIKE Nasedo, that's what she was always *supposed to do*... and no more.

quote:Remember Tess' alleged recovered (or planted) memories "I remember when you loved me", she may remember being loved, but not necessarily by whom. She just assumes it must be Max because he is her 'mate'.

And/or these "memory retrieval" techniques Edsedo taught her were not necessary "retrieving" but "enforcing" her current YB programming and "forgetting/erasing" her prior? Something that Edsedo would know how to do with *another of his kind* easily enough. HOWEVER, since this *is not* Tess' *original* programming... she could / will eventually remember her protector status and disregard the YB in her (going along with the theory)? Even though I'd feel she was changed by Edsedo (or whoever) to accomodate the Young Bride position, hence she's *mostly* like M/Mi/Iz now... I think she'd still be human enough to be with Kyle (WEE, the Rebounder in me joygasms ).

quote:Harding probably felt that he could kill 2 birds with one stone by having Max accept a protector as his bride - covering up the loss of the true bride and what better way to protect Max and Co. than by having a protector within the royal circle where the previous betrayal came from.

Works for me Definitely sounds like something Harding would do. He probably would have done it anyway even if he believed the YB could have reincarnated somehow. *Completely* disregarding what this might do to Tess/Ava later in life if a real YB (essence/soul whatever) ever surfaced. He was all about efficience, not feelings.

quote:Anyway, bringing all of this back to Liz, takes me back to my favoured theory of the bride's soul being reincarnated in Liz, hence the recognition by Max.

Ok, this might be a *really* lame defense for your excellent theory huggybehr... but there are times I feel the YB essence MUST be in Liz somehow. For the general feeling I get from Roswell ... Max and Liz ARE going to end up together. It's almost a given in my book - I honestly don't feel I'm being *that* biased simply for my want to see Max & Liz together either. As far as I'd want to deny it... there are some elements of Ros that are very much like a soap opera. One of them being, the lovers will reunite and be together at the end... drive off into the sunset, "Here with me" crescendos in the background Anyway, if Max & Liz *don't* end up together at the end (besides being extremely irate), I'd be very surprised. Although, to explain this... how could alien King Max be with his small town girl Liz (however *changed* she might be)?

The recognition he had of her when he was a boy. The love Max has had for her almost his whole life (despite *knowing* what he was). The love they have now (and possibly always had to some extent, although that's starting to delve into fanfic). It almost seems logical to me that Liz DOES HAVE the YB (or whatever person protoMax loved in his former life) essence in her (Why? Who knows)... if anything to explain (alien) Max and (human) Liz's very strange connection and eventually, seal their bond for all time ( ::sigh:: I'm such a Dreamer). There's *something* about Liz ( and we haven't heard that line before!). Their connection is just not of this earth and Liz having the YB essence in her probably would be the easiest explanation (more or less, HOW did it get in this smallest of small town girls if it is indeed in her?)

quote:Please be kind if you think this is repetitive drivel.

I'm one of the queens of drivel hb (I know drivel when I see it ) and your post certainly *wasn't* drivel.

Melodious

Liz being changed. On 10/7/2000 Whitaker makes a comment that she smelled Max Evans on Liz when they first met. Max and Liz had just met up for the first time in a couple of months just before Whitaker walks up. So why does she smell Max on Liz? Is it because his essence has become a part of her being through the healing process and the way it was done? We still don't know for certain if Kyle was changed (outside of a new found religion, but then a lot of humans do that when they suffer near death experiences). Liz must have already had a connection to Max or he would not have had the immediate recognition for her the first day he saw her. Ava knew immediately that Liz had been changed when she heard the story about him bringing her back to life. Many of us think this possibly comes because of a prophecy back on Twilo. Note that Isabel had to hold Liz's hands for her to be able to use her power. This is probably only Liz's fear and lack of understanding that she even has powers.

Whitaker says that she can not understand why the shapeshifter didn't know who she was after all that time. She was peeling in clumps. She admits to following Pierce/Nesado after he left her place, so we know that it is her eyes that we are seeing Nesado through and probably her skin that he found on the car. We know that the skins have problems here on earth with motor skills, hearing and vision, among others due to our closeness to our sun. When Max has this problem, it is when he is loosing his powers from healing all the children.

Does anyone else see his reaction as similar to that of Tess after she threw the fireball and after her abduction by Lonnie and Rath?

I do think that Tess was the one in the leaking pod and Nesado saved her. One of two ways, maybe Nesado stayed close enough to know what was happening with the shapeshifter who was kept in the military unit. When he could, he got him and and used his essence to heal Tess. Or he used his own essence. This would explain a lot about the way she reacts to things, her strong feelings of protecting Max, and the fact that her powers seem to be getting really strong. Whitaker admits that the shapeshifters powers are greater than hers and it was only due to the element of surprise that she was able to give him such a motal blow that still didn't kill him right away.

Anyway, that's my .03 cents.

4everyoung

It was you....................

I do agree that it is probably hard to believe that Nicholas could have been held in the white room by the military. He certainly would have known more about the crash then he appeared to know if this were the case. The fact that CWW knew nothing of this, however, does not prove anything since she commented in her journal that Nicholas did not trust the skins, so it is doubtful that he would tell them anything.

Thanks for the reply Kristine. I agree that Nicholas would not have told any of the skins the truth. He doesn't trust anyone, not even Lonnie.

4everyoung

It was you...................Max

Melodious/HuggyBehr and everyone who has commented on Tess:
Really interesting theories. I still do not believe that Tess is necessarily benevolent or honest - but time will tell. If TPTB end up making her "nice" - then I firmly believe that the character was not originally written with that outcome in mind.
Personally - I could have gone for a tragic "Eponine" type character - the unrequited love, etc etc. But Tess doesnt seem to have been written sympathetically (at least not if you take season one into effect).
I find it much more intriguing to think that she is not who she appears to be - and possibly has a malevolent streak......
Anyway - I hope we get to see some answers and consistency soon. I really get the feeling that they are moving towards a Tess/Kyle thing and if so - I hope they resolve the whole "destiny" scheme and expose it as being either a scam or irrelevant (and if its irrelevant then I hope they explain WHY).

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I do not find myself enthusiastic about any theory to the point where I can add to it. I think the best theory I've seen is the two ships theory, that Mel started on the last thread. Something about how the Royals arrived on two different ships to protect the lineage in transport. But if that is so, and there were eight sacs on the one ship, how many were on the other ship???? I think that two ships is definately possible, as it would cross back into season one nicely. But the Sof47 established that the eight sacs came from the same ship. So, if there were two ships, then I think the total number of podsters could be 16, eight on each ship.

I would not be surprised if the podsters were to run into skins that follow the Royal Court. It seems pretty silly to expect the Royal Four to conquer their enemies without any additional help from home allies. The lifeform technology of the husks is probably not exclusive to one political faction. Even if there were such things a patent rights on Twilo, I doubt warring parties would respect them. Conversely, I would not be surprised if some of the enemies were also recreated into human beings. If power and leadership is passed from generations via birthright, K'var's interest in Isabel could have been more of biological necessity than true love. If the inhabitants of Twilo will not except non-Royal descendant from K'var, then perhaps he too had his essense cloned, duplicated and recreated into a human being. I don't think that original K'var had to be dead for this to happen.

Under the two ship premise, and assuming that the ships were equally complemented with eight pods, there would seem to be 16 possible podsters. Of course, 1/2 of them are just the Dupes. This could explain how and why Nicolas is different. If K'var saw that he may need a more human general/representative on Earth, he could have sent another ship.... And Nicolas that we see now is not the same Nicolas we knew in Harvest or WO. It's a stretch. But do you think it's possible we may have a theory of two Nicholauses out there?

As for the Whirlwind Symbol: I thought we had pretty much established in the last two threads that Max and Liz are the two lines embracing each other: Ying and Yang, and both were protecting the triangle in the middle: the triangle being either the Granolith, or Balance for all. So, we could have it either way: a. they are the protectors and handlers of the Granolith, which has the potential to bring Harmony to all planets, or b. both Max and Liz, together, will bring balance to everybody and everything!

As for the signs: I expect to receive in the next few days a book on Native American Religion and Languages! It's coming priority mail from Arizona and I can't wait! Before anybody gets overly excited, I asked but no... it wasn't written by Claudia Parker ! This is a compilation. Will post results!

Tristan: Your offering to give up partying to cook dinner for your sister is just another proof that all the people who get the magic that's Roswell are very special!

4everyoung: very interesting posts indeed! A light went on when you mentioned deserter skins... could it mean some of them (Michael followers aside) may be friendly to the squad? Some who may be actually loyal to Max? hmmm..... BTW, sometimes I think the Skins and the podsquad belong to the same race. The only difference is their access to certain technology: Mom could mix their essence with human DNA. K'var et.al. didn't and had to resort to what they could: spacesuits made of vegetable material, which, once on Earth and because of the time lapsed, had to be started again, from spores on up!! If Nicholas was a general in the palace and his betrayal was discovered, he wouldn't have had access to a human body but had to resort to the second best option: the husks! (and how he hates them, he he he!).

As for the orbs: I feel they are extensions of the Granolith. It is the big *G* that has been controlling things from the start. After all, where was the orb buried but only 200 yards from Mama? That's why they shifted attention from them to the *G* itself (actually, it's probably because Ron Moore came, but we don't know that in RoswellWorld, do we? :lol.

The alien following Michael, Max, Harding, Liz and Maria had a distorted view of its subjects. Max lost peripheral vision when he started loosing his powers. I think that difference is vital because that alien is different to Max (SS?).

The "I could smell Max Evans all over her" remark by Vanessa to me was only another proof of how connected those two are. Every time he touches her, kisses her, speaks to her, thinks of her he is only reinforcing the Cadmium X or whatever it is that changed her (chemically) to make her the altered human she is now... if she is human <ducking as QFanny throws a hard object at my head>!!!

In case I don't come back to the thread during this millenium, allow me to repeat for you what I wrote in the WB as a birthday wish for Max's human representative on Earth, as I sincerely wish it for each and all of you. You are all amazing and I consider it a privilege to be a recipient of thoughts, conjectures, mussings of such brilliant minds!!!:

May you enjoy the new year surrounded by the people you love and who truly love you, may you always remember what's important in life and the people who really want what's best for you, may you always be safe in your environment, may your ears be deaf to the adulation of people who just want something from you, may you constantly discover and conquer new venues that'll make you grow and continue to be the persons you are destined (sorry for that word) to be, may you achieve all the goals that will make your spirits fulfill their promise, may you always feel peace in your heart, may you find what makes you happy, may you enjoy it with health and prosperity, may you achieve what your potential promises. May you have strength to change the things you want changed, may you never feel you have to accept the role other people give you or label you with, may you see clearly the path ahead of you, may you continue discovering new roads to different goals and may your fulfill all your wishes. May you continue writing here (this is my selfish thought, of course!), and may we really find out sometime next year that Liz is who we all say she is . May your friendships last forever and may your promises be fulfilled in you and your children! Thank you very much from me!
Love,
Norah, or, as my friends know me:
MIM, Zippy

Starbox - though I'm not on-line much now, I knew the thread was getting close to full, so made a point of checking on it - only to find it closed down!! Also - THANKS for the picture gallery!!

Shapeshifter - No glasses yet?? What a pain! I too thought it was interesting that the #23 was our thread number and the number of the Annual Roswell celebration! Maybe TPTB do read the this thread. I must admit, I hope they do, but don't expect it. I would love to see some of our theories incorporated or to come true, but only time will tell!

Reguru - While I started this thread for the very reason Grace Kel mentioned, it has evolved into more than just "Liz" - all those who are connected to her, and since Max and Liz have the closest connection, Max is discussed often. To be honest - I respect those that post on many threads, but I don't have the time, so am thankful that I have one place to go to discuss all that swirls around in my brain!

I find the discussion about Nick as a General in the former royal court interesting. Also, thanks for all the information on the Arthur C. Clarke book. So interesting - I bet it was done deliberately for people like us.

On the V constellation. I believe the first appearance was in The Balance in the end, after Liz give Max a last kiss, she looks up towards the stars - and there it is. Also, it is VERY inportant that the cave drawings not be shown to just everyone, because - as we now have figured out - they would lead the trained eye right to the Granolith!

Finally - I have recommend that you all go listen/view the commentary by JK and JB on ARCC, especially part 2! It is very interesting to find out what their mind set is with respect to the Liz and Max at the end. It is very much like many of us suspected - and the comment about their connection - she being his conscience and who he trusts the most is interesting.

Happy 2001!!

Zero
I shall Believe!

Tristan - hope you had a nice New Years - as someone that was horribly ill with her pregnancies - I can tell you that what you did was VERY appreciated. Wish I had had a sister like you.

QFanny - interesting thoughts on the two ships theory and on Liz as the granolith (I know that was last thread but I never commented on it) I think we have done a REALLY good job finding evidence/theories linking Liz and the granolith & I have a very strong feeling that this will be like the "changed" Liz theories we had that turned out to be 100% CORRECTT!!!!

About Nicolas as general - very interesting..... I dont know what I think about Nicolas. He doesnt seem to be a "skin" (he doesnt peel or itch, was not effected by the firestorm, has different powers) Also - if he is the "leader" of the skins - why didnt he give himself a better body (after all - Courtney got to be a "babe" for fifty years) but he SAYS he is a skin. So I guess the question would be - what motivation would he have to lie???? Also - I mentioned this before but in WIPEOUT - nicolas has what looks like the LILITH symbol (that is on the destiny book) on the side of his sunglasses. It is shown very clearly in the scene where her tortures Courtney.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Rooney

Duh, don't know, perhaps someone else can help me out with that one

Starbox--as for the more than one ship theory in a Season1 episode Milton is giving one of his presentations at the museum I believe it was in MONSTERS episode he says something like this----and on that fateful night after all the fireworks had gone off....a spaceship and some say more than one crashed to the Earth, I know that is not exactly how it was worded but he hinted at more than one in his presentation----and where is MILTON? Was he Nasedo? or Pierce? or did he just slip away? I wonder.

Zero, I totally agree, I thought that interview was very interesting, especially JB saying that Liz knows Max better than anyone else. The other interesting statement to me was that it's the people you know that makes you the person you are. Now, if the allegations about Max's previous reign as Zan are true, knowing Liz has not only made him human, but could make him a better ruler. Liz has a number of fine human qualities which Max can benefit from, which is why I've always thought that the role of confidante and advisor that Liz fulfils in Max's life is just as important as their romantic relationship. Tess just does not have that to offer and I think that Max really needs Liz on a number of levels. Also, going back to the theory of Liz's importance having been prophesised back on Twilo, could explain why Max was sent here to learn how to use his powers under the positive influence of Liz. How many times has Max wanted to give up his duty and just be with Liz? If she was a different person she would just go along with that, instead she is the one who does whatever it takes, even at great cost to her own personal happiness, to keep him focused on his duty. She is the one who keeps Max's human and alien side balanced

Happy New Year everyone.

Bluecornmoon, your words were very inspiring.

Melodious, thanks for enjoying my theory. I am aware that it has some holes, but I'll keep looking for clues to fill them

Some clues from former threads:
1. In SH we are told it's Feb. 20. Earlier, in The Convention, we see Max setting the Venus clock to 2:20. (Pointed out by GraceKel.)
2. There was a rare alignment of the planets on 5/5/2000. The story tied into the idea of planetary alignments, leading up to that time. (Note the word 'Alignment' on the gas station in MTTM, which aired that week.)

GraceKel: One of the things I'm most proud of is that QFanny called me, very upset, to make sure that I make her feel better when the "Liz is changed" thing came out. I think "I" worked!! he he he I love her and admire her and like to rib her once in a while!!

Akqa: Max and Liz related? Nope. No way. Not at all! Different donors please? Take your words back... you don't really want them to be related, do you? Maybe they share alien essence but not human DNA!

Huggybear: If the podsters were connected to their dupes (after all, they shared the same DNA), then the leaking pod would have affected its counterpart, wouldn't it? Hence, when the Bride leaked her essence, it also affected the connecting pod. Results: Zan doesn't have any feelings for Ava. How's that? If pushed, I could come up with something else, but I think this is my best effort!

I mentioned the song "Aquarius" from the Fifth Dimension in the last thread, but after reading Nemo's post, now I would really like to know the words for sure: When the moon is in the 7th house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars (not relevant), then Peace will guide the planets, and Love will stir the stars? This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius! Harmony and understanding, sympathy and trust among things? all the living things are visions, mystic crystal revelations and the light to liberation, Aquarius? (I'm a product of rock&roll.. deaf to understanding words in songs.. he he!). Maybe Katims heard the song and thought of Roswell? Help!! Grasping at straws here....

From Leaving Normal: Michael changes the answers on jock's test.

screencap courtesy of Crashdown.com

Now fast forward 11 episodes to Sexual Healing. Max hands Liz a note to met in the Eraser Room. Note the handwriting!!! This is what Max's handwriting looks like.

screencap courtesy of Crashdown.com

Next episode in Crazy, Liz gets a flower delivery from someone. Liz assumes Max sent her the flowers. Let's see if the handwriting on the flower note matches the handwriting on the Eraser Room note from SH.

screencap courtesy of crashdown.com

First, I am asking whether or not anyone thinks the handwriting looks the same? If you think it looks the same, which I think that it should in order for Liz to think that Max sent her the flowers, then how was Topolsky able to forge the handwriting???? This supported the idea that in the episode Crazy, the shapeshifter was playing the part of Tess and perhaps working with Topolsky in order to get the orb.

Now, in ARCC, sorry no screencaps, I think that in order for Maria to believe that Michael pickout and bought the earrings that Maria would have to know what Michael's handwriting looked like. If the handwriting on the posty note looks different from the handwriting on the Xmas tag, then I think Isabel must have forged the writing. I'll have to go rewatch now.... I just thought it seemed a little strange.

When I saw that in ARCC, it got me thinking again about the flower delivery in Crazy. How Tess overheard the conversation between Max and Michael on sending flowers, how Liz got flowers, and the note seemingly from Max. In the Roswell world, it would seem only a podster or a shapeshifter could forge the handwriting. Which suggests that Tess was not who she seemed to be in the episode of Crazy. I still think in this episode, Tess was being played by the shapeshifter, and working with Topolsky to recover the orb.

But what really bothers me is that Liz has not picked-up on the fact that someone had to successfully forge the handwriting in order for her to think that the flowers came from Max. There is nothing on the note that says they were from Max, so why would she think that otherwise? And why wouldn't Max question Tess about Liz's flower delivery, when he knows that she overheard his comments to Michael? Can the two of them together make a connection that something is not right?

QFanny---I know we had the discussion about how convenient it was that Tess had heard Max talking about being romantic would include a flower in the middle of the day and then the next thing we had was Liz getting flowers in the middle of the day supposedly from Max but turned out to be from Topolsky but as for the writing I was never totally hung up on the writing because I felt a FLORIST could have written on the card many times when people send flowers the florist will ask what do you want written on the card? If someone orders them over the phone or something so.......I know this has been a sticking point with you but I guess I will need more convincing I am not there yet LOL.

QFANNY--I am still hanging onto to that idea that we discussed with someone watching Michael and Maria talking about taking the orb to meet Topolsky from upstairs at the Parkers---someone who might have shown up as Dr Malcolm Margolin? And the fact that Jeff Parker sent Liz and Maria thirty miles out of town in the WIPEOUT eppy when all the humans disappeared.

Liz on the other hand challenges Max, she makes him think things through and realize the consequences of his actions. She doesn't back down from the other aliens, she tells them if she thinks they are wrong, and she all around acts like a 'leader'.

At least to me, Max and Liz balance each other out...they bring out the best in each other in terms of leadership and emotions. In other words, they make each other better people and thus better leaders.

As for Tess, I really like her interactions with Kyle and Sheriff Valenti. I think that by exploring her 'human' side, Tess will learn the value of human interaction and thus will become more of a part of the unit. In my opinion, that is really why Liz had to push Max away in the EOTW, not because him and Liz being together was a bad thing, but it was a bad thing at the time because it pushed Tess into leaving. She needs to learn that human part of herself, as I think that is what is going to ultimately meld her into the group. She won't be with Max (personally I think it is going to be revealed she isn't the true bride but that is just spec. on my part) but because of her interactions and more human side she will still be an important part of the 'team'.

Also, does anyone think that Alex's absence might mean something big is coming down the pipe for him.....can you imagine if he became possessed by say Khivar. Okay, enough speculation by me. Everyone have a Happy New Year!

Hopeful_Lurker

Hey I just thought of something-remember in SUMMER of 47 Richard Doty is talking to Hal getting drunk and saying "I SAW THINGS, BUT I WAS A GOOD SOLDIER I WENT ALONG WITH IT!"
Maybe he was in on the mysterious disappearance of Yvonne White(and was very disturbed by it) and her dna was used for one of the podsters and eventually his was used as well, this could be that human to human connection---when Liz Parker was shot that is why he was determined not to participate in letting her die again? I don't know maybe just a fleeting thought LOL, there are so many of those LOL.

"JB: ... I thought… I though that THAT moment was so much more about the evolution of Max as a character, and his relationship to Liz, and his relationship to his family. And it was so much more than just saying, you know, “Yeah, we’re back together now. I believe in you. Let’s live happily ever after”. It was… it was… more about “Without you, I couldn’t become the person I am now”.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I dont know exactaly - but it seems like QFanny has a theory in the works. I would be willing to believe that Tess was involved in the flower delivery in Crazy.
I do think however that Isabel gave michael the earrings for Maria - doesnt she acknowledge that she gave them by making a "they cost alot of money" sign to Michael???
But - we have the forged note from Valenti - so we know that Tess can and does manipulate handwriting. QFanny - Id love to hear more about your theory as to why she would forge the note in Crazy. Are you saying Topolski was not really Topolski but a shapeshifter the whole time?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

First, I am asking whether or not anyone thinks the handwriting looks the same? If you think it looks the same, which I think that it should in order for Liz to think that Max sent her the flowers, then how was Topolsky able to forge the handwriting???? This supported the idea that in the episode Crazy, the shapeshifter was playing the part of Tess and perhaps working with Topolsky in order to get the orb.

Now, in ARCC, sorry no screencaps, I think that in order for Maria to believe that Michael pickout and bought the earrings that Maria would have to know what Michael's handwriting looked like. If the handwriting on the posty note looks different from the handwriting on the Xmas tag, then I think Isabel must have forged the writing. I'll have to go rewatch now.... I just thought it seemed a little strange.

When I saw that in ARCC, it got me thinking again about the flower delivery in Crazy. How Tess overheard the conversation between Max and Michael on sending flowers, how Liz got flowers, and the note seemingly from Max. In the Roswell world, it would seem only a podster or a shapeshifter could forge the handwriting. Which suggests that Tess was not who she seemed to be in the episode of Crazy. I still think in this episode, Tess was being played by the shapeshifter, and working with Topolsky to recover the orb.

But what really bothers me is that Liz has not picked-up on the fact that someone had to successfully forge the handwriting in order for her to think that the flowers came from Max. There is nothing on the note that says they were from Max, so why would she think that otherwise? And why wouldn't Max question Tess about Liz's flower delivery, when he knows that she overheard his comments to Michael? Can the two of them together make a connection that something is not right?

I think we went through this before, but what do I know? I have a Teflon memory...
When you order flowers, esp. by phone, the clerk at the florist prepares the flowers and writes the card. The handwriting on the card need not be the giver's, and the writing on this card doesn't look like Max's. If I sent Qfanny flowers, would she expect my handwriting on the card?

Isabel, Michael's "sister" for many years, probably knows perfectly well what his handwriting looks like. No problem forging it. She could just copy it, in her own way. Tess probably could also forge (at least) Jim Valenti's signature, given that she has access to his home & papers. She could have typed the note, if it came to that, on his typewriter while he's at work.

And Qfanny, glad you got your B back.
BBBBBBBBBBBB to you, too!

Seeing that you are talking about forgery, I have always been of the opinion that the picture of Tess in the book was a fake. Knowing that the aliens can change molecular structure, I think that her picture was added to the book to convince the others that she was one of them originally when she actually isn't.

That book was just too conveniently found and seemed to be the convincing factor for the others to accept Tess. I really wonder what would happen if one of them waved their hand over the book in an "undo" fashion the way that Max did in the Pilot episode with the statue in the art class.

I know, this may seem off-the-wall, but I really would like to see that book readdressed this season!

When you order flowers, esp. by phone, the clerk at the florist prepares the flowers and writes the card. The handwriting on the card need not be the giver's, and the writing on this card doesn't look like Max's.
[/B]

Actually though - the writing DOES look alike, Check out the fact that both messages are in all capital letters - and then look at the letters that both notes have in common. For example - both notes contain a stylized letter "E" with a straight line at the top and a curved one near the bottom. The "R"s are also very stylized and identical. Is it supposed to be the same writing?? Or is it just the same set guy that writes the notes <vbg>
As for flower deliveries - being the recipient of flowers at times <sigh - back in those younger years....> :-) - I would assume that Max would have had to go in and order the flowers - I dont think he placed a phone order because that would require a credit card and remember that Max is a minor. I suppose he could have borrowed his parents card - but it would be more like a teenage boy in a small town to just to go in the store and order flowers . In that case you would write the card yourself and have it delivered with the flowers :-)

Actually - to really confuse things - the note with the flowers is NOT on the type of card that florists include with flowers. Every flower order I have ever recieved came with a little business card-size note with the name of the florist stamped on the top or some lovely little message like "I LOVE YOU" or "I'm Sorry" or "Its a GIRL!!!" across the top. :-) and the transcribed (or handwritten) message beneath it. I would say that we (and Liz) were supposed to assume the note was not "standard florist issue" and was personally written by Max.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I could believe that the florist wrote the note if there wasn't a time stamp on the note. The note says, meet me in one hour. Well, in order for the two parties to meet at the same time, the person that sent the flowers would have to know exactly when the flowers would be delivered and received by Liz.

I have some knowledge about dispatching and I can assure you, you never quote an arrival time to a customer... NEVER!!! Because you just can't promise an exact time, and a one hour time stamp from delivery to meeting is awfully fast.

Besides, the note is not on a Florist's stationery and Liz would be able to recognize Max's handwriting because they have so many classes together. They are lab partners, so they probably share notes.

StarBox: My idea (although entirely not my own) was that the shapeshifter was playing Tess -- thanks to GraceKel's comment about Tess overhearing about the flower delivery. And the shapeshifter was working with Topolsky to recover the orb. Liz asked Topolsky about "the people she worked for," and Topolsky responded, "it's more complicated than that." Also, at one point, I feel that the shapeshifter shapeshifted into Topolsky. When Pierce approached Alex in the street, he said, "I'll take you to her." Well, Topolsky was hiding from Pierce, supposively, so the shapeshifter may have been impersonating Topolsky to get closer to Pierce.

Here is some support for Topolsky as the shapeshifter--- Michael says, "It's a new tactic." Well, the anagram for tactic is TICTAC! And we all know that TICTAC is the original shapeshifter!!! After Crazy, we definately do see Harding as the new shapeshifter.

Max says to Isabel about Tess, "She's a stranger" The word stranger is Nasedo!

And if Topolsky has been contacted by Pierce and by the shapeshifter to recover the orb, that would explain her delusional behavior.

Dr. Margolin is TICTAC-- This is the same shapeshifter that killed Hank and possibly switched the orb in SH for a dud. He says, "No more late night trips to the middle of nowhere." How would the Doctor know that Max and Liz have made other trips?

And when Pierce collects Topolsky, he says, "Congradulations, you lead me right to them." Them could mean a lot of things, but maybe it means the shapeshifters (plural). Or it could mean the orbs.

This is a rather old theory, but the forging of notes in ARCC got me thinking about it again. I hope that you can follow this because I really think that whomever wrote the note that came with the flowers, it was not the florist.

Ya know sometimes there are so many ideas flowing thru here I can't keep everything straight but I do read everyones posts maybe not right away but I do little catch ups so if you don't always get a response I am talking to anyone here don't feel bad it doesn't mean that nobody read it LOL.

That's it for now--just a shameless self-plug If anyone else would like a copy, please e-mail me and I'll forward one to you. Happy RBI-ing. I'm back to work tomorrow, so I should be around more often now!!

I was a secretary/administrative assistant/slave/nose wipper/baby sitter/don't get me started... for a large group of engineers. One of my jobs was ordering flowers for deaths and illnesses for the immediate families of the engineers.

Most people do not walk in and buy the flowers and write the tags. They call and order the flowers by credit card or bill direct to the company or even order it over the internet. You dictate the message you want on the card to the florist and they write the card. Hand writing wouldn't be important. The message would.

Reggie, Norma Bates I agree about a florist writing the notes. Unless more evidence comes forth well...........

Okay back to Tess clicking in MITC(this one is really bugging me---I noticed when Max and Michael were having one of their little chats in the Mens room in SLV and Max says "I mean who is she......." Behind them is a sign that says GO TO HIGH TECH---could she be like a computer Hal of 2001 a SPACE ODYSSEY or am I simply grasping at straws here-well just trying to get some discussion going. Then again maybe she is the fire breathing dragon protecting Liz the true bride? hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Akqa: Max and Liz related? Nope. No way. Not at all! Different donors please? Take your words back... you don't really want them to be related, do you? Maybe they share alien essence but not human DNA!

LOL..No I didn't mean they would be related.. (my sister and I do not have the SAME DNA).. my point being they would be bonded ..connected because they share one part possible to make Max partly Human.

Liz on the other hand challenges Max, she makes him think things through and realize the consequences of his actions. She doesn't back down from the other aliens, she tells them if she thinks they are wrong, and she all around acts like a 'leader'.

At least to me, Max and Liz balance each other out...they bring out the best in each other in terms of leadership and emotions. In other words, they make each other better people and thus better leaders.
Hopeful_Lurker

This is a repost of something I entered at the end of thread #22. Could Tess be a stalking horse?

I am a firm believer that Liz is the bride. This is a theory on how/why it happened but not on how she ended up with the Parkers. I know there are holes in the theory and not everyone believes that she is the bride. This is just a supposition and not meant to aggravate people.

THE MOM-O-GRAM, TESS AND LIZ:
Perhaps Mom (from the Mom-0-Gram) sent Tess and said that she was the bride when she told the other 4 (or more) aliens from the ship and the people that the pods went to earth. Mom might have arranged to send the fixings (not for a pod-birth) for the real bride (Liz) either separately or with them but only told one of the shape shifters that she trusted (Nesado not being among the trusted.) Tess would not the bride then, but a stalking horse to protect Liz. Tess doesn't even know, nor did Nesado. Perhaps Tess was a trusted and loyal part of Zan’s Royal Guard (size isn’t everything if she had strong powers to compensate) and volunteered but doesn’t remember. That's why Tess said in MITC: "You must have been a great husband." Tess DOESN'T REMEMBER Max as her husband because he wasn’t her husband.

I don't think the fact that he was running into walls proves anything. If he had been another type of alien, and had to get used to being in a human body, he still would have had trouble seeing. (We have no idea what types of problems Nasedo may have first had when he came here. He had 50 years to get used to being a shapeshifter)

Maybe when Nicholas's original attempt to intercept the podsters before they arrived on earth failed, Kavar sent the skins to earth. Since Nicholas then would be expecting them, this would be why he was there with them when they arrived.

I do agree that it is probably hard to believe that Nicholas could have been held in the white room by the military. He certainly would have known more about the crash then he appeared to know if this were the case. The fact that CWW knew nothing of this, however, does not prove anything since she commented in her journal that Nicholas did not trust the skins, so it is doubtful that he would tell them anything.

Hey everyone. Happy New Year!! Just a quick thought on the Nicholas is not a skin theory... Courtney says that Nicholas is 100x as powerful as the rest of them -- or something to that effect (my memory fails me, of course). It seemed to me that it was alluded to that Nicholas was more powerful then the rest of them. Hmmmmmmm. Why? Why would he be more powerful?

Too tired to think effectively. I, for one, had quite the festive New Years!!

{~}:}

Hey I just thought of something-remember in SUMMER of 47 Richard Doty is talking to Hal getting drunk and saying "I SAW THINGS, BUT I WAS A GOOD SOLDIER I WENT ALONG WITH IT!"
Maybe he was in on the mysterious disappearance of Yvonne White(and was very disturbed by it) and her dna was used for one of the podsters and eventually his was used as well, this could be that human to human connection---when Liz Parker was shot that is why he was determined not to participate in letting her die again? I don't know maybe just a fleeting thought LOL, there are so many of those LOL.

Hey all. This was discussed previously on a thread many many moons ago, but how about the possibility that Yvonne White was taken by the aliens? Noone on the bus heard her scream or had any idea what *Hal* was talking about when he got on the bus and asked them about her (hello alien mindwarp!!)...

Which, if it's true, can really tie into the Tess being a protector theory, as we can then assume that the protectors have this ability...to mind warp...that none of the other royals seem to have.

Also...She was a nurse... who was exposed to the *do we really know for sure that they are* dead aliens. Perhaps they needed her for information on the whereabouts of the supposed dead aliens, or needed her medical expertise on obtaining human DNA from live subjects. Just random thoughts....but could that mean there are more protectors out there? Maybe the aliens that were thought to have not survived the crash were brought back by the others with the healing stones. If there are more protectors out there than we had originally thought, what could that possibly mean????

aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh.

I think that's a recruitment poster (Air Force?) -- I think the slogan is "Go from high school to high tech..."

Yesterday here in Hawaii at my parents' house ARCC aired and my mom actually watched most of it with me!! She even needed a Kleenex at the end.
My thoughts on seeing it again: Perhaps (like Max did with Ghost Guy) Past Max made a deal with GC to watch out for her children. This was why Present Max recognized Liz. But falling in love with her was not planned--it just happened. Not sure how "we've got to get rid of her" and "time's running out" (spoken by shooters) fits in. I could come up with several theories , but I'll let someone else run with it.

Qfanny, I got my spare glasses ! And the ones that were swept out to sea were found and taken to the lifeguard's station! (Too bad I'm too old to chase lifeguards ). They're basically totalled, but my mom now believes in miracles.
And about the 2 spaceships: I am thinking that they crashed into each other--maybe on purpose, or maybe dupsters' ship shot podsters' ship and then podsters' crashed into dupsters'? This would leave us with just 8 pods total found from both ships at the crash site. It would also explain why we only saw 2 glowy guys working together in SO47. Maybe the other glowsters showed up shortly? Or maybe we should ditch my theory of Skins-as-Glowsters and figure the Skins were there too in an out-of-body experience and retrieved the Dupes. We have Doty scratching behind the ear too... And Yvonne White could have been temporarily possessed and then taken the Dupes to NY.
Am I blathering yet? At least I can see again!

Nemo do you have any ideas on this CLICKING?
Skin Husk? Android? Hal?

Zero - I never got a chance to let you know how much fun I had meeting you.

Starbox - Where did you get the Emergency shot at the begining of this thread.

I have been a lurker for A LONG time. Hopefully I will be able to bring more to the group.

~Christy

Bluecornmoon - Loved your words of encouragement!!

Metaphysical girl: It appears that Nicholas is the leader of the skins here on Earth (according to CW's diary & Episodes we've seen). Maybe that's why he was made so powerful, and he was a General back on Twilo. Also, they knew he would need all the power he could get to go up against the Royal Four (Max in particular, considering he was probably 10-times stronger than Nicholas back on Twilo), and to keep the skins in line.

I'm still convinced that Nicholas is a skin. Courtney said that the reason why the skins were invented was because Earth's enviroment was too hostile to their race. I'm thinking if Nicholas can do everything the podsters can do and more, that if he was like Nasedo, he would've been able to figure out shapeshifting. Plus I think that Nasedo came here as a human shapeshifter. Remember how shocked Pierce was that Max's organs were human etc., That made me think that when Nasedo was captured back in 47', he had already developed his shapeshifting abilities. But I could be wrong.

GraceKel - I don't think the note was forged in CRAZY either. I've ordered flowers many times for many different occasions and everytime the florist would write the note. Even though the note wasn't signed, it would be only natural for Liz to assume Max sent the flowers: he was her boyfriend at the time, and the note asked her to meet him where they had their first date. As far as Tess forging notes, I don't think it was a big deal in RCC. Amy & Jim had only been on one date. I'm sure Amy isn't an expert on his handwriting: therefore, I'm thinking there wasn't a lot of effort put in the note to forge Valenti's handwriting. Tess probably printed the note, and used no signatures. Signing the note, Jim, in print.

GraceKel - clicking revistited :-) - I will be honest with you - at this point I feel like Tess's character has been written so inconsistently that the only theory I have is that she has multiple personalities! LOL!!!!
I am hoping that after the next few episodes I will feel better able to comment on just who (or what) I think Tess is.

QFanny - I am still with you about the florist!!! And your theory makes sense to me. JB is 27 but Max Evans is 17 and would not have a credit card to place a phone order :-) - plus you are so right about the time stamp. I think that it is very possible - I should be getting Season One tapes soon (wooooooo-hooooooooooo) and I will rewatch CRAZY with this theory in mind and let you know! I remember that the Dr. Margolian thing bothered me at the time.

Shapeshifter - love the Max/GC speculation :-)

Tasfya - good to see you again :-) - hope everyone that has been home for the holidays had a nice break :-)

Norma/Gracekel - yes - I am firm believer in LIZ AS THE TRUE BRIDE! I probably lean towards her being s secret marriage (a la Romeo and Juliet) and her "essence" being sent to earth to hide and protect her as she waits for her beloved to return to her.
The mom-o-gram could have been referring to Liz (had mom known about the marriage) and Tess could have not been mentioned in the M-O-G (if she was just a decoy or handmaid to the bride) - OR the M-O-G could have been referring to Tess because mom did not know about the secret marriage and Tess was the arranged marriage (to bring the golden age of peace) that Zan had fought against.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

1) MAX as a CHRIST FIGURE - this was discussed after ARCC. One thing that I thought of recently was that in MITC when Nicolas asks Max to strike a deal he gives three conditions - 1) return the granolith 2) CALL ON HIS FOLLOWERS TO LAY DOWN THEIR ARMS and 3) abdicate power to Khivar
It seems that Max has - in his death - become a "religious" figure. He has followers fighting on his behalf and awaiting his return - sounds alot like a Christ figure to me.

2) On the Tess-as a decoy-handmaid to the bride-theory. Lets assume that Tess was in the leaky pod and was altered or replaced by Nasedo - meaning that Ava was closer to being the authentic "fourth podster".
After MITC I commented about the Ava/Tess bond andsomeone that said Ava was only responding to human kindness in Liz - but I have been thinking about it and what was really odd was not that Ava responded to Liz - but that LIZ responded to AVA. Liz was the one who felt instinctively drawn to protect Ava. I mean - Liz does NOT like or trust Tess - it seems odd 9at the very least) that she would feel so drawn to Ava. In fact - Liz and Ava seemed like they could been have even been....sisters. I could definately see Ava having been Liz's handmaiden. Also - Ava seemed to have a knowledge of LIZ and HER importance.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Just a comment on Nicholas and his powers:

If I'm a Skin in Twilo and want to fight the King, who is hidden away on Earth, I just don't give "most" powers to the general and a bit to the others. I give all my troops everything I can so that the chances for survival, and victory, are maximized. I don't think the fact that Nicholas is more powerful is by chance. He had to be/have something that made him so. I still maintain that both Skins and Podsters are the same race. The only difference is their access to certain technology! Mom's scientists learned to mix human DNA to their essence. The Skins couldn't! Period. Nicholas was part of the in-crowd at the palace, and therefore "inherited/learned" his powers and that's why he was so much better than his underlings. The King was given/inherited/was granted by the *G* the powerful powers (oops) he had and, consequently, spread them around to his inner group, for defense and government purposes. The Skins have not developed their powers simply because they didn't have them in Twilo and the husks did not come equipped with them. They do not have human DNA/brain, which is, after all, the basis of the podsters' powers. The strength of all funeral attendees was barely enough to breech Max's barrier at CW's wake, and his are not that developed yet! So: Nicholas has them because of who he was in Twilo - the irony is that he got them because he was close to Zan. That's it!

Now, as for shapeshifting: Sorry but you don't "learn" shapeshifting. Maybe you learn it but only if you have the inherent ability inside you, if it is in your DNA, like learning to walk! You can't just say I'm going to learn SS as of tomorrow. You not only have to have the ability to go into the smallest part of a molecule and change it at will, which, believe me, is not that easy , but you would have to have the power/ability in you to do it. You only have it if you were born with it!

The little bit I know about handwriting is that it comes straight from your brain! That's why it's easy to study serial killers and such: they cannot change who they are (i.e.: serial killers do not use punctuation in their writing!). A successful forger usually gets into the mind of the forgee: when they do what they have to do, they try to "become" them (please don't ask where I read this, I'm probably trying to forget!).

The conclusion: it seems to me that more and more evidence is stacking on the side of Tess being a shapeshifter. The only problem may be that she didn't have a say on this last change and doesn't know she is one!

I've been lurking here for a while now, but this is my first foray into actual theorising.

I love everyones'theories. Ane one of the reasons I have not posted before is that I've been having trouble keeping up.

But, since I'm here I had to put my two cents worth in.

I have to say I'm not convinced that the Skins and the royal four are of the same race. If the skins cannot survive on Earth without their husks and they are the same race as the other aliens, why could Nasedo and the other protector live without their skins. Unless, of course the protectors were from a separate race to the royal four. While I agree that the Skins apparently did not have access to the technology that the royals did, I don't think the protectors had a human side to protect them from the elements of this planet.

I like the idea that the brides essence was removed from the leaky pod (Tess's)and somehow placed in Shiela Hubble's unborn child and that this child became Liz. But, I do agree that it raises very interesting questions about Ava and why Zan would be looking for someone else when he already had a non-faulty bride.

The orb has the delta sign in the middle, the fourth letter of the Greek alphabet, number 4 could represent the royal four.

Swirls= representing balance, ying yang Max and Liz like previously mentioned.

Now lets turn delta the triangle into 3-D. It forms a pyramid! The four corners can each be represented by the royal four, and the center or the apex of the pyramid can be represented by Liz.

Some theories suggest that the Great Pyramid at Giza was thought to be a cosmic collector. Greg Neilson author or Pyramid Power stated " there is a helical vortex (made me think of the granolith) of energy emanating from the apex (Liz) of the pyramid which actually expands in diameter as it rises higher into the heavens"

Helical vortex can also represent the swirls on the orbs and if Delta was 3-D it could represent the royal four and Liz being the apex the key and energy needed to activate the granolith.

Another interesting fact, in the dictionary
Helix: spiral, double helix means a pair of parallel helices with a common axis esp. in structure of human DNA.

Does this relate anything to the reason why the mix of human DNA and alien essence? Also this could explain why there are 2 swirls. One being half of human DNA with the other being alien DNA, or it could just represent human DNA an essential part to activate the Granolith. Pure human DNA being Liz the apex of the pyramid to join all the royal four to activate the granolith. Either way she is the key.

Or maybe she's some type of alien enemy or possible allie that we haven't heard about yet. I have to agree with Starbox: TPTB have written Tess so inconsistently that for me it's hard to decide who or what she is. However, I am convinced she's not the bride and have no real connection to Max. Maybe she was possibly sent to protect the real bride/queen, Liz, and just doesn't know it.

Christy - Hi! I had such a blast meeting you and the others. The car ride was so fun! I hope we can do it again. I also hope you got home okay - any more paging?

Starbox, Grace Kel, etc. - I've always thought that if Liz is part Twilo "alien" - as apposed to part alien due to being a descendent of an ancient alien race - that my favorite theory is the "bride sent in another ship" theory. But over time, I've come to like a variety of theories, and don't totally subscribe to one. I have favorites - one of them being the that Liz is all human, but the subject of an ancient prophecy ... !

My deepest thoughts have been focused on the Ghost from ARCC. I have come to believe - after rewatching the show finally - that it was NOT Max's conscience, but an angel sent to help guide Max to find the balance. I believe if the Ghost did not come when he did, Max would have been consumed by guilt that would eat away at him. The angel - sent by God (?) - came in the form of the man killed (possibly was him) to force Max to immediately face his guilt and deal with it, not just dwell on it. The Ghost knew about Max (a sign of his conscience), but other things that only an angel (not Max) would know. So, the "miracle" was not just the healing of the kids, but the angel forcing Max to confront his guilt and the realization that Liz would always be there for him - the voice of reason - no matter what, thus, helping him restore the "balance," and the realization that there MAY be forces working that are bigger than him and the other aliens out there. I hope this makes sense - it was influenced a bit by the JK and JB commentary. HuggyBehr - I agree there were many comments that were of interest - and the one about the people you know affecting your development was very interesting. I love it when we get these insights into what the writers, etc. are thinking.

Back to work!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Tristan - I liked the whole "two swirls as human and alien dna" thing you wrote about. Very cool.

Ok, back to L&W mode!

There are other theories also, but this one stood out to me.

Anyways, chat with you guys later.

DeeDee

I will say I totally agree with your thinking about ARCC eppy and its meaning.

Thanks, Zero for starting this thread!

I finally saw Run Lola Run this weekend! I don’t think anyone has commented on this, but….

Did anyone notice that at the end Lola was standing in the middle of the intersection, just like Liz was in MITC?

I just have to say RLR was the only foreign film I have ever liked! It was really good. Of course, it helped that I was trying to pull in parallels between it and Liz’s importance!

Huggybehr—I agree that Liz’s role as confidante is just as important as the love they share. Who she is and how she influences Max are what makes things right. She has prevented history from repeating itself numerous times (TEOTW obviously, but also in MITC when Max is about to be betrayed/killed by Lonnie).

I agree with you GraceKel that Liz probably assumed the florist wrote the note for the flowers. I would have if I didn’t recognize the writing.

Shapeshifter - the url you listed for the archive of Signs and Symbols and Behrs doesn't seem to work for me. I wonder if others are having trouble accessing it as well.

Anyone - I'd like to read more about the Native American Mythology as it relates to the storyline. Could anyone recommend where I might go to find this kind of exploration?

I can't wait to read more and maybe contribute to the myth!

I don't know a word to express how I feel after reading these posts! I'll be back for more!

I wonder if it's more than just the humanity within that will make them stronger, but their alliance with their human friends, and maybe all those people Max changes when he heals them. There has to be a purpose to that.

And there's also the granilith. Whoever controls it will have more power. But, as they say, power corrupts. And absolute power corrupts absolutely. Maybe their humanity will give them the wisdom to use this power appropriately. Or maybe it's Liz's wisdom that's needed to control/direct their power. She made an excellent counselor in ARCC.

I was just thinking about X-men and about Rogue the mutant who can take powers from other mutants and the most powerful of all the mutants. Could Liz have this power? Can she temporarily take powers from the aliens, like Isabel in MITC with touch? I know it's a crazy idea but it was just a thought

I really think later on Liz will become an important part of saving earth and Twilo. Momogram did state that the podster will have the see the evil within and i think our Liz will be the key to see the evil within. Didn't she only get flashes when she kissed Max and Maxaedo in season one? (except for the reverse connection). In season two she gets flashes with the lightest touch! Which means her powers are growing and the process of change has begun!

But just in case things don't get that complicated I thought I would make it a little simple.

I know a lot of people talk about the importance of Liz's healing vs. Kyle and the rest of the healed humans, but I really think it's quite simple. Again going back to my post of last week, the show is about MAX & LIZ and how things relate to them. So by that being the case, the healing of Liz was more important and significant.

Of course, the main difference between the healings is this, Liz AND Max was in their flashes....when they were a child and everything. That changes things for me, or at least set them different because the kids flashed in his mind as well, but he was not in them. Now some people may say because he did not know them, but Max has had flashes of Liz by herself as a child, so I think the fact that he saw he AND him means something.

Also, I think that Ava knows more thatn anybody thinks, and might would throw River Dog in that equation as well. Notice, he told Liz to make sure that deserved HER trust, not the other way around. He told her that she was not one of them, perhaps, another being or form????

Also, another about River Dog and Ava in realtion to River Dog sensed and told that she could not perform in the circle, because she was scared, she would have to find her own way. Isn't that what most leaders have to do, regardless if she knows she is special or not?? I mean, think of it this way, Max showed leadership qualities, so when it came time, to play "guess who the leader is" everybody automatically turned to Max.

Same with slowly but surely people are begining to either notice that Liz is more important than appears(Ava, River Dog, Eddie) or she is very special and can create bonds and is very valuable to the group(Isabel, Ava again)

And is it me, or is Ava pro Max/Liz? Was I the only one that notice that she asked Liz how SHE found out about I mean, I understand that she was talking about Max's dupe but why did she bring up how Liz found out about Max, why didn't she say something like, "so how did you find out about them" Maybe they were already talking about Max and Zan before or maybe I missed something help me out here!!!

Please give me feedback, I feel so lonely when no one responds

Thank you for backing me up on the florist card. ARCC reminded me of how I questioned Tess/Topolsky/TicTac as the shapeshifter. (There are many theories.) And I also agree with you the there is a religious undercurrent with Max. I think I posted most of my thoughts on it over on Reggie's thread, The Politics of Roswell. Which might be a strange place to post, but Religion and Politics deal with power, and the seperation of church and state is a modern concept in our history.

Tristan. I really liked your thoughts on the Delta sign in the WW symbol, especially on how they could be a pyramid if it's three dimensional. There is a theory that the pyramids were designed by aliens anyway, and with the pytroglyphs/heiroglyphics we see in the cave map, it seems the Egyptolgy would fit nicely in the Roswell world.

I think once RostaFehrian gets the new Signs and Symbols and Behr thread started you should go a post on that!

Norma and GraceKel: I could believe that the florist signed the card if it wasn't for the time stamp. Had the card said, "Meet me at Senior Chow's" only I could believe it. The "one hour" business puts a lot more pressure one everyone and it is unrealistic for someone to call into a florist shop, order an arrangement, tell the florist's message is, "Meet me in one hour at Senior Chow's", and know when the flowers would be arranged, delivered and accepted. Doesn't anyone else other than StarBox think this is odd???

I think that if nothing else, ARCC proves Tess is forger!

Pierce told Max that the his power comes from his cerebral cortex "We learned that from the ones we studied in the 50's." That means to me that all the aliens have cerebral cortex's of sorts. Body parts that act just like our cerebral cortex.

It is theorized that that is where we, as humans get our ESP powers. We all have them they are just not tapped into, just like Nasedo says they are all human powers.

Nicholas is more powerful because he was an adult alien who had already developed his powers.

I think because he was a general he had more powers. That is why he was picked. I think it is perfectly natural for a leader of an army to have more resources than his men. Generally armies are made up of a small percentage of "Officers" and a larger pool of "soldiers."

All I have to say is I wish that they had kept in more of the scene in WO when Max fights back with Nicholas. I hate to think that Tess has exhibited more power than Max has.

I think it would be great if the writer's had Liz's powers be that she can detect the evil within. This would be a great way to get Liz involved in the story if she had to identify enemies versus allies.

Great stuff you guys! Keep it up!

Tristan - interesting info on the pyramid/delta - it seeems to share alot of the symbolism of the diamond in that you have four points with a FIFTH element combining them and tying them together.

BlueCornMoon - I think you are right - evidence is mounting that Tess could contain "shapeshifter" essence.

QFanny - the Topolski/Tess connection is SO intriguing to me - their names are even similar in sound. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I think it would be SO interesting if the writers went in this direction. We already know that CW was an alien who had infiltrated the government, then Harding/Pierce did - and I think that So47 set up the possibility that Doty et al were skins. Could Topolski have been a shapeshifter who had infiltrated the FBI from the start???? Remember how Topolski karate-kicked???? Then in Harvest we saw TESS karate-kick the skin??????? And Tess appeared right as Topolski was getting killed off (in a FIRE). (Hmmmmmmmmmmmm - Tess - The Evil Shape Shifter - right GraceKel???)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Great stuff you guys! Keep it up!

[/B]
****************************
That would be pretty cool. I think someone mentioned this on one of the previous threads, that Liz might be the one to see the evil within because of her insight into Nasedo when she kissed him in MTM. She was also always suspicious of Whitaker, even though I don't think she ever suspected she was a skin. And then there are her suspicions of Tess, which have yet to be proven or not proven. I think that the mom was referring to the powers or one of the podsters powers (Perhaps Liz???) who can specifically see the evil. Whether it be by a touch or just by seeing them remains to be seen. All of the podsters powers are getting stronger, and hopefully the writers will do more exploring with Liz's new found abilities. Wouldn't it be cool if her powers went to the extent of Prue's on Charmed?? She can already astro-project it's only a matter of time, with practice, before she will be able to speak and maybe even drop kick a few people while she's projecting.

Starbox: Topolsky hit Valenti over the head with a flashlight in 285/RD, her boss was the one that said she drop kicked the Sheriff, when in actuallity she didn't. Topolsky was very much alive when Tess showed up. Remember Tess first appeared in her red dress in Crazy. While Topolsky was still very much alive and stalking the teens. But she didn't have a huge part. She became more prominent in TLV, the next episode. This episode was also when we found out Topolsky had just died in a fire. Personally I don't think Topolsky was a shapeshifter: If she was you'd think she would've been as powerful as Nasedo. Tess on the other hand could have some shapeshifting abilities, for me the jury's still out on her.

But let me ask you guys something. Who do yu think Isabel think Max will or should be with???

The reason why I ask that question is because it just seems like Tess is the only one pushing this "destiny" thing. And maybe Max is curious, because he is a guy and she is a girl they consider pretty(remember, :roswell_Micheal: was drawn to Courtney)

And does anybody knows Ava's powers??? Did she ever use them??? And why did she really help

I have been catching up here with reading and also have some new thoughts on Nicholas and his powers and some questions.

For one, in CWW's diary, she wrote that Nicholas was the one who nik-named the husk "skins". So how did Nasedo know that the enemies name that had found the podsters was "the skins"? Anyone.....

Nicholas was a general in the palace back on Twilo, that is what CWW relates in her diary. In military, do they not train you to use the powers that you have and to enhance those powers (we call them talents) and learn new ones? Is it not true that the higher rank you get is due in part to your great accomplishments not only in your use of your powers, but in your politics? Nicholas's greatest power is mind rape... isn't that like what we call mental torture to get the truth/information and isn't that what they train the secret service/cia/fbi and maybe generals in the military to do? So Nicholas was a general and if they do things in the way we do, he would have been taught to strenthen his powers and to develop new ways to use his powers. Plus, like someone noted, he did have 50 years to practice. I agree with the idea that once Max really starts to develop and explore his powers, look out Nicholas.. I think that the human dna can only enhance things or mom wouldn't have gone along with making the royal four to become lesser than what they are.

4everyoung

It was you ................ Max

But that is just my opinion.

Tristan interesting. The V is for sure the symbol of the king, we got that from MITC. The square usually represents four, but I am not certain about the U. What scene was this in?

We create our own destiny.......Max & FMax

So: Nicholas is the same as the podsters. All of them have the potential to become shapeshifters and Tess may already be there! Somebody laughed when, back during Skin & Bones, I said Tess looked and acted as Liz' handmaid during the scene with Harding (Crashdown backroom scene). I agree with StarBox in that I think Tess was sent here to take the heat for her. Her protecting Liz's virginity may be an added bonus but not one that Tess is doing on purpose!

I know everybody has been making a distinction between mindraping and mindwarping. Sorry but I don't buy it. Nicholas takes information from your mind. Tess puts wrong information in yours. To me, her kind of powers are worse than anything Nicholas could come up with!… cute scene with Kyle or not!

Also, I think Nacero may have had an allegiance with Nicholas/the Skins. He knew their name (Twilonians don't have a reason to know this nickname given by Nicholas). So CW knew she was diddling a SS, and viceversa! For all we know, she killed him as his "weakest", when he least expected it! (After all, didn't she kill her first husband too?).

AvaSpeaks: Your post was excellent. I cannot respond to it because I've been thinking about Nicholas, but please continue…. If it's okay with you, I'll try yours tomorrow!! Don't think that nobody thinks of you… it may be that you state things so well that people take the information as concluded and don't feel the need to answer!!

Tristan: Loved your answer on the Triangle being a Pyramid! It could very well be!

1) MAX as a CHRIST FIGURE - this was discussed after ARCC. One thing that I thought of recently was that in MITC when Nicolas asks Max to strike a deal he gives three conditions - 1) return the granolith 2) CALL ON HIS FOLLOWERS TO LAY DOWN THEIR ARMS and 3) abdicate power to Khivar
It seems that Max has - in his death - become a "religious" figure. He has followers fighting on his behalf and awaiting his return - sounds alot like a Christ figure to me.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Did anyone notice in The Miricle (ARCC) that in the opening scene, there was a sign hanging behind Max and Michael that said Christmass in big bold letters? Max's body blocked the 'mas' in Christmas leaving 'Christ.'

Hi Ava

I think the simple difference in the healings too was that Max already loved Liz, and the fact that he was drawn to her the first time he saw her.

You know I was watching RD several weeks ago and came across and noticed how he warned Liz about trusting Max. I found that very interesting, but couldn't understand why he would say that, but you make a good point, maybe Riverdog sensed something about Liz. In the past, could Liz's race and Max's race have been enemies. Similiar to the Montagues and Capulets in Romeo & Juliet???

Also,
Did you notice in the Balance after Riverdog asked Liz to step out of the circle, she still managed to find her way in and be there to help Michael, without even drinking the water that Riverdog said would start the connection?? And Riverdog, knew that she would find her way. Maria was concerned about Liz's fear and Riverdog told her not to worry about Liz, that she would find her own way, and she did. I think that says something about her connection to Max and the podsters too.

I definitely think that Ava was Pro Max & Liz. To me she even seemed like she wouldn't have "died" if Zan would've found the "someone" he was waiting for. I'm sure she would've been hurt, but I don't think she would've been insistent that she and Zan belonged together. Because it was there "destiny" and maybe that would've been because she knew that they weren't the Royal 4. She seemed very passive.It would be interesting to find out what Ava's powers are. You know, come to think of it I think they might've all (Lonnie, Rath, and Ava) had the powers similiar to Michael's or maybe that had developed to that point. Remember when Brody caught everyone in the UFO center in MTD, they all raised their hands like they were going to project some type of alien power or force at him (kill him), but were stopped by Max.

And SweetJewel was shot down in flames by bluecornmoon. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on that one, bluecornmoon.

Bluecornmoon - very interesting theories about Nicolas/shapeshifting/etc. I agree that shapeshifting may be within the podsters grasp (Michael changed his fingerprint in WR). Also - while we have speculated that a CIVIL war was going on on Twilo (as in between two races) - all the aliens have referred to it as a REVOLUTION. A revolution is not about race. So it is possible that Nikolas/Khivar/Courtney/Max etc were the same race on Twilo. Are the skins in husks because they were a different race to begin with??? Or would the podsters be in the same "boat" had their alien essence not been combined with human dna (thus allowing them to survive without a husk??) Obviously the shapeshifters (Nasedo) is a differernt race or species because he is able to survive without human DNA OR a husk.
The only question I would have is would the fact that the podsters have human skeletons keep them from being able to truly shapeshift????

Re: Ava having powers - while some have said they didnt think Ava had powers (perhaps they "leaked" out of her pod??) - I agree that she did. You are right Dayneen - she did appear to be about to use her powers in MTD - and in MITC she tells Liz she could have/should have stopped them from killing Rath - which sounds like she not only had powers - but had powers strong enough to go to head to head with Lonnie/Rath had she not been so passive.

SweetJewel - I dont think I have ever seen flaming on this board. We not all agree on all the theories - but I have always felt that EVERYONE here is very open-minded and respectful of each other.
I know - at least with my own theories - when I put them out I WANT feedback - I want to know if it wont work and why - or for others to improve on it. I forget what theory it was - but I remember I put something out once and I think it was shapeshifter who found the holes in the theory - but then those holes helped redirect me into a much better theory. So I am always grateful for any response - positive or critical. And I commend others on this borad for always keeping their critiques on the theories themselves and never getting personal. You all are the BEST!!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

So: Nicholas is the same as the podsters. All of them have the potential to become shapeshifters and Tess may already be there! Somebody laughed when, back during Skin & Bones, I said Tess looked and acted as Liz' handmaid during the scene with Harding (Crashdown backroom scene). I agree with StarBox in that I think Tess was sent here to take the heat for her. Her protecting Liz's virginity may be an added bonus but not one that Tess is doing on purpose!

I know everybody has been making a distinction between mindraping and mindwarping. Sorry but I don't buy it. Nicholas takes information from your mind. Tess puts wrong information in yours. To me, her kind of powers are worse than anything Nicholas could come up with!… cute scene with Kyle or not!

Pure genius, bluecornmoon! This makes a tremendous amount of sense, both scientifically and on an intuitive level. I shall have to dig out my cognitive psych texts

quote:Also, I think Nacero may have had an allegiance with Nicholas/the Skins. He knew their name (Twilonians don't have a reason to know this nickname given by Nicholas). So CW knew she was diddling a SS, and viceversa! For all we know, she killed him as his "weakest", when he least expected it! (After all, didn't she kill her first husband too?).

But this idea gives me the heebie-jeebies I shudder every time I watch Pierce/Nasedo tell Liz in CW's office that they will have a good time, and knowing that Liz knows who he really is...ICK!

Also, blueCM, I agree that the podsters and the Skins are the same race. Courtney said different factions not different races.

And lastly, thanks for posting your birthday/New Year's wishes. That was really sweet

I have other ideas/people to respond to but I'll do that separately, later. My boss is away this week, but there are other people around

Pine Cone - Immortality and Fertility The ancient Greeks and Assyrians viewed the pine cone "as a symbol of masculinity because of its phallic shape,(phallic- growing interest in sexual organs) it formed the apex of the thyrsus staff, which represented both fertility and immortality." As the emblem of Artemis, it represented feminine purity. It was also the emblem of the Roman goddess Venus (Aphrodite). In Christianity, the pine cone forms the crown of the Tree of Life. Because of its swirling form, it is associated with, "dynamic generative and cosmic power."

Here we see Venus is mentioned and also the Tree of Life,(women on the reservation told Liz, that was what the symbol was on the necklace) also feminine purity seems to play an important role for Liz at this point. As for dynamic generative and cosmic power, this might mean that this is what is going to begin for Liz. I think that we are in for some interesting discoveries about Liz this season. I just love that Max was the one to light up the pinecone, I hope this means he is going to light up Liz.

Evid

Evid[/B]

Very cool Evid - I have been starting to collect some Liz/Tree of life screencaps - the Tree of Life is also mentioned in the symbolism of the diamond (the Tree of Life grows in the center of the diamond at the point of the "fifth element")
Here are the two I have so far:
From Heatwave:

From FS (notice Liz is sitting in front of a tree on the wall mural)

Also on this subject - BlueCornMoon - when you get your native american book - can you look up Cactus??? I think that the cactus is a significant symbol (Max even has cactus in his room) but I havent found anything on the symbolism of it yet.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox,
Cactus Symbolizes, Granduer, Warmth, as well as Protection and Chastity. It all sort of goes back to that Virgin Mary theory that's been swirling around with the other theories. It also goes well with the her being the true bride/Queen. Being grand(royalty), and needing protection. I tell you this board gets more intriguing by the day. I just hope someone from TPTB is reading it and hopefully taking some ideas back with them to use for Liz's character once they start to explore her powers and her purpose more.

just rambling

SweetJewel: Cute! .. but since I'm not Tess, you won't be getting flames from me!

Tasyfa:

Evid: Your pinecone info was great! I started thinking about it and said: Stop! Not everything means something.... HA! This should teach me, right?

The biggest testimony to your Tree of Life pictures is the mural in Liz's living room, next to the door! I think you could get a clear picture in Balance!

Sorry I've only got questions at the moment, but my there are so many great minds in here, I look forward to your hearing your thoughts.

Just thought I'd pop in quick. I'm still so busy with the holidays that it will be a while before I can catch up to you.

shapeshifter & others - I found that synopsis on the Arthur C. Clarke book fascinating. I think it proves that the set designers and directors put a lot of effort into giving us leads and clues. (Or is that wishful thinking on my part? Nah. )
Well, after my extended family leaves the end of next week I hope to go back to full Roswell mode. See ya later!

The Chosen One

aldebaran, StarBox, Dayneen, shaiwon72, bluecornmoon and anyone else I forgot. A big THANK YOU for the replies.

bluecornmoon: You should "never" push aside any idea that pops into your head when it comes to Roswell. The little clues might just piece together and lead us to some big answers, and the best way to find out is to share.

redhawk: Hi, I've missed you. I just love "The Chosen One," you are so amazing. Hurry up and get the family out of the house in come back in visit soon.

StarBox: I really think your on to something with your "Tree of Life" thoughts. I will keep my eyes open and help you research. I never thanked you for noticing the Virgin Mary stance in MITC, so Thank you.

Dayneen: You found more stuff on the Virgin Mary. I never thought of connecting her with the cactus. This has been my theory, and now thanks to you I have more to add to it, thanks.

shaiwon72: To reply to your question,"do you think when Max healed Liz, maybe he put his mark, engraved it in her head?" I don't know for sure, but you might be on to something. He might have done this to mark her as his queen. Tess did seem scared to be tested as Max's bride, maybe because she knew she would fail.

Evid

On this board you will find a M&M, Roswell general and Max and Liz spoiler thread. The first post on each thread will be a compilation of spoilers from all sources.
There are a few sources that are pretty much 100% accurate - one of these is people in Covina that actually see scenes being filmed. They can describe what they see filmed - but we never know what the context of the scenes is. (for example - people saw the final scene of ARCC filmed and relayed it verbatim - but we didnt know what "I believe in you" meant.) Another accurate spoiler source is the synopsis of each new episode that gets posted in the wee hours of Saturday morning before the show airs on Monday. This comes from someone who watches the satellite feed of the episode and is 100% accurate.

I do read spoilers - but always make sure that the spoilers do not influence my theories - beacuse spoilers are notoriously inaccurate (and if there is something REALLY big - they keep it VERY hush hush - for example NO ONE had spoilers about Liz having powers until the satellite feed of MITC aired)

And remember - absolutely NO spoilers can cross over onto this board - not even the hint of a spoiler :-) New posters often assume we discuss spoilers because of our theories - but its just that we are all BRILLIANT here!!!!!!! :-) :-) And of course - we have figured out that Liz is the KEY that unlocks all the secrets in Roswell!

Evid - thank YOU for the pinecone info!! I had JUST started collecting "tree of life" screencaps the night before! Great minds must think alike!!! Or maybe we are onto some cosmic Roswell-vibe :-)
And if anyone has an ideaabout where a good screencap is - please feel free to PM me or post it - I have already pulled a horse screencap to add to the opening gallery and am open to new suggestions!!! BlueCornMoon - I havent been able to find the mural yet - it wasnt in the Balance caps - where is it again - in the Parker house or the Evan's house????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Love from

Angel

Actually - Look in the right hand corner under the menu - see what looks like a SHIP, a GLOWY ALIEN, and a DNA double HELIX?????
Wow! I didnt notice that until I posted the pic.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

STARBOX--thanks so much for posting that pic if you notice it was what I thought very symbollic last season--not this season(hmmm inconsistencies abound--yes Star Split Personality TESS LOL!!! Thanks for the info guys.

Evid

Evid

Nicholas refers to the plant as Antar. "Kivar will abdicate the throne of Antar and allow the Royal Four to return home...." and later when he reveals the missing Granilith he says "No, it's no longer on Antar." Of course, I've seen them change names of things in later revisions - for example, Cadimeon X had a completely different name in earlier scripts.

The scene when Ava is leaving Roswell is a bit more revealing:
Liz: You don't have to do this.
Ava: Yes, I do. You don't just drop the dime on Lonny and get away with it. Staying' here's too dangerous - for me and for you.
Liz: Where will you go?
Ava: I got a plan. It's better if you don't know.
Liz: One more thing...how did you know that I'd...been changed.
Ava: Our protector...said that if we were to use our powers on a human...if we brought them across the line between life and death...it would change them forever. It was meant as a warning.
Liz: Of what? What could happen?
Ava: He never said. But Zan took it pretty seriously -- so he never brought anyone back. The truth is, I don't know what it means, Liz. But I thought you should know.

The last bit I will share from the script is when Isabel is convincing Liz to try to contact Max. In response to Liz's question why Isabel thinks Max will hear her. She says "Because he loves you, Liz. He loves you more than anything in this world. I know that. For all that's happened...for all the pain the two of you have caused each other...I know my brother...and I know that if there is one voice he will hear no matter where he is or what he's doing...it's yours.

There was a scene that was omitted where Liz reveals to Isabel and Michael that she managed to reach Max.
Michael: Did you get through?
Liz: I..I was there...Max was on a street...Lonny and Rath...they were tring to kill him...
Isabel: Is he all right?
Liz: I...I don't know...

Thought you all might enjoy knowing some of the original thinking behind the scenes.

Rooney

Thanks Rooney for the cut scenes. I always wonder how much is applicable, since the scene/words were cut, but you are right, it does help provide understanding of what the writers were thinking. It also provides a connection where there appears to be a gap. Interesting to think that Liz didn't know if Max was ok or not. If Liz, as an astral projection that Max saw, was able to see that they were trying to kill him, why wouldn't she be able to see he was ok? However, once Max realizes what he just eluded, when he looks for Liz he no longer can see her. Perhaps that is why she didn't know.

The discussion between Ava and Liz was also revealing. Have to think about that some more.

Nasedo said nothing about that. Maybe because he thought it was too late already?
It's also odd that Liz herself was warning against Max using his healing powers to save too many people in ARCC.

Hopefully if there's a prophecy or consequence about this that we haven't heard about yet it turns out to be good rather than bad. Or maybe the consequences of changing someone are not necessarily bad, but just very serious for all involved. Developing alien powers might not be something they want to spread around. And who knows what it does to the Balance?

And Max already did it to Liz and Kyle. I don't know if the kids in ARCC count or not. If they had cancer they may have been dying, so who knows?

Ava never said what happened to their protector. Maybe she went off to find him/her and find out more information? Then maybe she can come back to Roswell and
explain it to us.

I guess if you eat of the Tree of Life/Knowledge you live forever, but there's always a price to pay.

Sorry, it didn't work. Could someone else put the picture of Max and Tess and the symbol that was on his forehead? Thank you, and if someone could PM me on what the heck i am doing wrong. THANKS.

quote:The scene when Ava is leaving Roswell is a bit more revealing:
Liz: You don't have to do this.
Ava: Yes, I do. You don't just drop the dime on Lonny and get away with it. Staying' here's too dangerous - for me and for you.
Liz: Where will you go?
Ava: I got a plan. It's better if you don't know.
Liz: One more thing...how did you know that I'd...been changed.
Ava: Our protector...said that if we were to use our powers on a human...if we brought them across the line between life and death...it would change them forever. It was meant as a warning.
Liz: Of what? What could happen?
Ava: He never said. But Zan took it pretty seriously -- so he never brought anyone back. The truth is, I don't know what it means, Liz. But I thought you should know.

I would be very happy if they brough Ava back! And I hope that this dialog is reintroduced in the story line as well....

I think that the protector that the Dupes had must have been more influential (and direct) than Nasedo. It seems that all the dupes knew him quite well.

What kind of situations did Zan get himself into where he would have to chose between bringing someone back or not?

Could Max be the legitimate Royal Four because he saved Liz. Would that healing/bringing back have triggered the seal's position in his head? Why would the protector of the dupes warn them not too? Is Liz safe? Is she going to be okay? Why the warning?

Sorry I've been gone so much, but work, and spending time up-dating the Intro are keeping me away - though I try to stay up on what everyone is discussing! Excellent thoughts! I especially like Bluecornmoon's thoughts. I have always thought of the Skins as another race, but a different faction of the same race does work for me. It (and what others said) got me thinking about the aliens on the ship that crashed. We assume they were the shapeshifter, one later becoming Harding. Maybe they were of the same race, but underwent a transformation that made space travel and acclimating to Earth easier - thus, the original "glow"! Maybe this glowing form was like a shell that when hardened became changable into whatever form the owner wished it to take - thus, the shapeshifters are born. A form of protection for their owners. An when permanently destroyed - dissolve like Harding did. Ummm....? I also like the common ancestor thought! It is go well with my "descendents of an ancient alien race that visited Earth" theory!

Evid - Love the Pine Cone info!! You all are making it IMPOSSIBLE to get this Intro written! SO MUCH GREAT STUFF! WHAT TO INCLUDE AND WHAT TO LEAVE OUT - such a dilema!

Starbox - Thanks for the excellent post on spoilers! Reminder - None on this Thread to make sure ALL feel welcome to post or lurk!

Rooney - Interesting cut scenes. I always enjoy finding out the mindset of the writers, though I know that things, and storylines change!

Finally - I watched "Merlin" (the NBC version) with my kids over the holidays, and it is interest (I brought up the Arthur similarities earlier - so this might only be interesting to me ) to note that Merlin was a hybrid (part human and part mystical word = wizard) that chose his human side over his mystical/magic side. He feel in love with a human girl and saved her life, cementing the connection. He was told he had a Destiny, but was told to "follow his heart" by the woman that raised him. He was the one to get Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake. Excalibur was an instument of the rightous that could only be used by a good man in a good cause. The Holy Grail - which Arthur goes on a search for - was the cup from which Jesus Christ drank, and was to feed the hungry and heal the sick, and a man with a pure heart was who would find it and bring peace and happiness to the world. Arthur did not find it, but Lancelot's son (name escapes me), I believe is who goes on to find it?? Anyway, I thought some of the parellels were interesting!

Got 5 minutes to get to a PTSA board meeting - so I'm off!! Have a great evening!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I think Liz and Tess might get along well together, if Max wasn't a bone of contention.

REGURU---I did tell you I would get back to you on the M2TM ---Tess's book and the symbols(or his bangs LOL) on his forehead, well I have to say I am still not totally convinced it is not just suppose to be his bangs but when I look at it as something else what it looks like to me is two letters----W U ---what that means I have no idea although are these letters outside the Crashdown somewhere cuz they do seem familiar to me? Not sure though.

On a different note, I was reading an article about ways to make class participants open up and share. One of the questions was "Imagine that you are in a White Room and list five adjectives." The article went on to say that the five adjectives describe your feelings about death. Of course, I immediately thought of Max, fear, terror, torture, etc. I knew that the White Room was a sensory deprivation room but hadn't associated it with death.

Evid - thanks for the screencap! I LOVE it!!!! Not only do I get the tree of life - but I get and eagle too!!!! I will be adding it to the intro because I had been looking for a good eagle image as well. Thank You!

Rooney - interesting cut scenes. The name ANTAR ended up being used in Cocoon I think - wonder if thats why the writers changed it???
Also Ava says she will be back - I would like to see more of her. Sounds like Lonnie will be back too. Glad that the dupes are not going to disappear into the River Dog black hole.

Zero - dont you love the Arthur similarities??? They are so neat - I really think the DRAGON is partly an Arthurian symbol.

See you all in the morning over coffee :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Huggybear:
Further to your post on the similarities between Twilonians (or should we say Antarians?) and Earthlings: If Nicholas seems to believe they can travel to his planet as they are, then they are similar, aren't they?. Maybe they can survive with the help of minimal aids (after all, they are used to a corrosive atmosphere, so Twilo should be a cinch!).

Evid: how true - in Roswellworld, everything leads to the truth about Max and Liz!

shaiwon72: Loved your thinking that Max put the seal on Liz. However, that seal goes to the Bride that was supposed to be married to Max. At this point, we don't know if she is The One or just the special human, chosen eons ago, but about whom nobody knows in either planet. I don't think Max has the capacity to do that. His intense desire and love may have changed her in the healing but not by putting something that he doesn't he has the power to put on or that he knew anything about at that time! If Tess was scared of the test, it would mean she knows she is not the Bride. Everything she's done so far leads us to believe that she really thinks she is!!

StarBox: Evid's picture of Liz's living room shows the Tree of Life I was talking about! What do they say about great minds thinking great things at the same time? He he he!

Zero: That you say that you like anything I wrote makes my head swell to such proportions that I have to go outside right now! No room is big enough for it... and the temperature outside is freezing....!! brrr....

Velasca: You are cute! Can't wait to read your comments! BTW, how did you come about your name? Interested in History or are you of Spanish origins? Just curious!

Zero/Shapeshifter/QFanny: Zero's compilation is incredible and great and I don't know how she does it! Obsessing 24 hours a day must be one of the ways!! he he Reading it, I was wondering if Maxcedo's place has a place where all the different versions of all the theories are located. Maybe you should have each poster send Zero a mini summary of their version of whatever they are talking about so that she can just go through that! To read and compile 60 typed pages, every time, boggles the mind! (And add it to Maxcedo's for good measure!)
i.e.: Who shot Liz and why? QFanny puts 2 SS because....; GraceKel: 2 Skins because.....; etc., etc. Just wondering because I shudder at the beginning of each thread and pray a little prayer for her!
(not trying to step on anybody's shoes... just trying to help!).

Nesado isn't killed until 10/07/2000. (according to CW's diary)

It was you........Max

Thanks,
Amanda

STARBOX: Thank you for posting the pic!

Starbox--yes I do see the glowing alien and the spaceship with that strand.

Okay I know I asked this b4 but does anyone know in MTD they show TESS standing beside this word RODS and this strand thing as well---what does this mean? Anyone?

Bluecornmoon---too funny about the whole religious parallels the funny thing is that it fits LOL.

Also I know you were all probably laughing at me when I first posted this from Max2TheMax but I had posted I noticed these people walking by with HAMMER like things in the background but nobody responded-well has anyone noticed Tess saying I felt like I was hit with a sledge hammer? LOL!!!!!!

Losing time, in a time warp, Traveling back in time......Huuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
The alignment of planets causing a magnetic shift, entrance of Tess and Nesado and introduction of the Granolith..

Any conections? What do you think...?

We make our own destiny....Max/FMax

ok. i think i'm getting loopy now.

Zero, About the Ghost-Guy-As-Warning-Angel Theory (to get Max to deal with his guilt): the problem I have with the theory is that Max then winds up 'earning' his forgiveness with healings. Aside from the fact that Protestant Christianity frowns on such belief systems, it would leave Max open to manipulation by Nicko or others who could push Max's guilt button to get him to do things that are not wise.

GraceKel, I'm glad you too see that a Prophecized Liz is a much like a Tesstiny Queen.

Zara, whoops! The Signs & Symbols link is: http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/MiscThreads.

huggybehr, Bluecornmoon, et al, re: "...your post about Nicholas' powers got me thinking. Nasedo told Michael their powers were human, linked to their advanced brains. But that can't be the whole story. If Nicholas is a skin he does not have a human brain and therefore the source of his power is alien, not human."
Possibly the aliens and Earthlings are all descendants of one race (part of Zero's fav theory). Remember the Descendants sign in the restroom behind Michael and Max. (Of course this could have mean descendants of the Royal Court). But it would leave the writers room to play with sociological issues--a common theme in SciFi. quote:By StarBox:
AvaSpeaks - I do think that Ava was "pro max and Liz" - I also think she would have been pro-Zan and whoever HIS Liz wasI see it differently (though not necessarily correctly): The reason Ava didn't stop Zan's death (recall she regretted not doing so) was because she felt neglected because he was looking for someone else.

Bluecornmoon, Anything you want to contribute to Maxcedo's site is welcome! Email maxcedo@hotmail.com

My first thoughts when reading what Ava says is that her protector told them that because he was afraid of the prophecy of the fallen King that rose again and brought his bride back to life. Maybe the protector was afraid that if Max/Zan saved a human girl than Twiloians would think “The prophecy has been fulfilled.” However, if the protector thought that it would be politically complicated if the King’s true bride (i.e. Liz) is human, than he wouldn’t want the prophecy fulfilled in this way.

I had figured that Ava left Roswell for fear that Lonnie and Rath would be back. It makes sense. I wish that that scene that explains it was left in. Of course, like someone mentioned they could always have Liz remember Ava saying it (although generally any flashbacks they put in are things we have already seen on the show). I suppose it depends on what the writers decide.

Just wanted to let everyone know that doesn't know already about the site theDDD.com! It's for Max/Liz shippers...and it's got great poetry, fanart, and fanfic as well.....

"We find out later, by the way, that anybody who has been healed by the aliens is now half alien/half human. Somtehing wierd happens to them. That means Liz is no longer
fully human and neither is Kyle (Nick Wechsler). "

So... that answers that question!

"We find out later, by the way, that anybody who has been healed by the aliens is now half alien/half human. Somtehing wierd happens to them. That means Liz is no longer
fully human and neither is [b]Kyle (Nick Wechsler). "

So... that answers that question![/B]

*****************************
Oh my God, those kids and Riverdog (ITW- Michael healed his ankle)...........

Well those of you who know my posts, know that I love looking for aliens in the screencaps. I might be seeing something that's really not there, but I think a few of you have been stunned by my discoveries, and it's fun. Well I have found another and this one is from MITC. We have connected Iz and Liz with their names having the same meaning, and also because they are the most importent women in Max's life. Now I wonder if they might share alot more?

Ok, now you need to look at this pic like your looking at one of those 3D posters and kind of blur your eyes. Look at the ghost image at the center of the pic. It has Liz's eyes, nose, and mouth. It's chin is Liz's right cheek, you can only make out it's provile.

I know what your thinking Evid is not normal and the head, believe me I already know that, but as Max would say, "what's so great about normal."

Evid

Shapeshifter - Thanks for commenting. I did not mean to imply that Max "earned" forgiveness. What I was getting at was that Max was racked with guilt, and that the angel helped him deal with that guilt. The way he did it was up to him - as the Ghost says once Max if told about Brody's daughter is "Looks like we have a plan." The Ghost never told Max what he had to do, just that he had to restore the balance. It was up to Max to determine how to do that - which in this case involved healing a bunch of very sick kids. But also Liz was there to help be a voice of reason for Max. So, I don't feeling Max was seeking forgiveness, but searching for how he fits into the scheme of things, and the Ghost helped him find his way - one step at a time. But it wasn't the Ghost alone - the Ghost force Max to confront his guilt and fear, and Liz helped him find the way. I hope this explains my train of thouhgt a bit more.

Zero
I Shall Believe

I think that the clicking is just a weird EdR mouth noise. You can hear something kind of like it when she's trying to talk to Kyle and Valenti and they're watching the game in ARCC.

Azcat--geez I was hoping this was a clue about TESS--not some E DeRavin discovery well I guess we will have to see.

Anyway, it was written in the last thread about the possibility that Nicholas may have been with the Royal Four in the crash. After re-reading CWW's journal, I think this may be a possibility. He was a General "in the palace at home" according to the journal. So, he was trusted by the Royals, and since he was a general, he probably would have been involved in this project to come to earth. When the betrayal took place, they may not have realized that Nicholas was involved, and sent him to earth anyway.
Another interesting tidbit in the diary is that CWW comments that Nicholas had trouble trusting the skins. If they came to earth after he did, he may not have known who Kavar was choosing to send, and wouldn't know if he could trust them or not.

I think what Whitaker might have ment in her diary is that after Kivar took over he made Nick a General in the palace. But I could be wrong.

My first thoughts when reading what Ava says is that her protector told them that because he was afraid of the prophecy of the fallen King that rose again and brought his bride back to life. Maybe the protector was afraid that if Max/Zan saved a human girl than Twiloians would think “The prophecy has been fulfilled.”
[/B]

Hey alexis, I thought something similar about that warning, I mean, why warn them about that of all things? The dupes don't seem like the type that would give a flying fig about saving human lives.

As for everyone who is healed becoming alien/human, I think it would be a bad idea to walk that particular path. Are we the only people who realise that there are enough differences between the healing of Liz (the balance, the reverse connection, the intensity of Max's feelings for her)and the other healings to justify no changes or at least no significant changes to anyone else?

GraceKel: You are to funny. Let's say we end up back in SH and M/L wake up in the desert, relizing all the events after SH were just a nightmare they both shared. Their eyes lock and they capture each other in a passionate kiss. When they pull away from each other, reluctantly that is, they both nod in agreement as Max grabs the Orb and smashes to pieces. Max begins to bury it and Liz says, with a smile, "no Max, let me do it, you got to smash it." Max hands her the shovel, with a grin. When Liz is done they walk away hand and hand, both with the understanding that no one else would ever know that it ever existed. Now how is that for a happy ending?

Evid

I think that the whole Liz being a past bride thing is good and bad. Good in the sense that it may explain his connection/recoginition of her.

But bad in the sense that I believe that it is better for them to love each other, because they are soulmates, rather than because they were past-soulmates. Reason why I say this is because I think a more poignant scene could be where she is being taken away or her life is in danger and he says something like, "I don't care what my past was, your my now Liz and I'm on earth, with you." I think that is better than making everybody half human/half and they all end up being in King Zan's former court!!!

Also, BE CAREFUL for what you wish for. Because Jason Katims never said that he belives Max and Liz should or WILL be together (unless someone has some info I don't know)

Because this can easliy turn into a Liz/Kyle thing again because now, they both share the same kind of bond. And if some of the spoilers are true about what happens with Max and Liz and it's only the 2nd season. We may see a Liz/Kyle pairing or something like that. Just because the whole alien thing has not quite been explained.

I think it's better to keep Liz and Max apart for awaile, a long time (don't flame me) and introduce some of the more sci-fi elements and theories that you guys have been working so hard on.

Just because of this reason, it's better, too me to see Liz and Max apart working together finding out info, like they did with the orbs and learning and depepnding on each other than making out. I think that would help there love deepen and mature more wisely. Then, introduce some of the elements that we have been talking about, maybe being a past bride or a long-lost love that he wasn't allowed to marry.

I like to see some of you guys responds to this, thanks!

Ok, here are my $.02:

When my family and I went on vacation over Christmas my little brother and I watched a movie on the way (road trip, we had a tv). I kinda feel stupid for writing this, but since it has to do with dragons and they're being discussed here... NEways, we were watching "Mulan" and if anybody has seen it you might remember the scene at the training camp were Mulan arrives and this one man is with his shirt open and has a tattoo on his chest and he says "this tattoo will protect me from harm" and it was a tattoo of a dragon! Of course I immediately thought of Roswell and the RBIers (?) and it might have nothing to do with anything being discussed, but if anyone knows if dragons are associated with protection or anything then that somehow ties with Liz, but I don't know how so if anyone can help me work it out, or tell me I'm dumb, I won't mention it again

Next, this is somewhat based on what I've read thus far on this thread, but taking a second look at how Max is always so protective of Liz (and vice versa) I'm thinking that from Max's pov, perhaps it goes on a deeper level of love than we think. If what you guys have been saying about the leaky pod and the alien inside it dying and Nasedo using one of the other aliens to recreate the bride and so on is correct, and if the bride was really Liz and she died and somehow Max (in his pod) somehow sensed it and then when Liz was shot he couldn't let her die again like she did in '47? Now, how does Max know it's her, well that goes back to that connection Max felt towards Liz the moment he saw her as he was getting off the bus. I kinda have a theory on that and it ties to GC and Yvonne White (the autopsy nurse). Could GC and Yvonne White have been sisters? We know GC is Liz's dad's mother so her last name is Parker, but what was her maiden name? Could it have been White? And if GC and Yvonne White were sisters then maybe the essence of the the bride (Liz) leaked out when the pod was damaged and somehow entered Yvonne when she assisted with the autopsy and passed onto GC cause they were sisters, but since she had a boy (Liz's dad) it didn't flourish or something, plus maybe it had to be activated by an alien (Max) and that's why somehow it ties to Liz and why he recognized her. I think I started to ramble and the end, sorry if this is confusing, but you get what I'm trying to say, right?

Also, going back to Yvonne White for a sec, if she is somehow tied to Liz, then the color white comes again, white roses, etc. White representing purity, hence virginal for the time being

Thirdly, has anyone gone to the silverhandprint.com lately? I was looking thru the notes of the reporter played by Majandra (name?) and on one, maybe two, pages the name "Parker's" appears. I don't remember in what context it was in, but I think it was the name of a restaurant, perhaps the former name of the Crashdown? Anyone? I'll have to go back and look

Evid I loved your pinecone info! Also, did you notice it was glowing WHITE? There we go back to that again...

bubbles You caught it too!!!! I noticed the stars on Max and Liz's heads too! It's on a screencap at the DDD.com and I was gonna mention it too awhile ago, but forgot to. I'd post the pic, but I'm too lazy right now

Now, that I've finished rambling, I'll go back to lurking.

Please give me feedback, I need to know if I've lost my marbles, or if someone else has mentioned any of the above

bye now!

Roxy

I think that Parkers refers to the name of the bar where Hal (Michael) asked for Betty (Maria)'s phone number. And where they meet the next morning and Hal received the envelope from Betty. I think it was suppose to be the original site of the Crashdown Cafe.

Rooney
Rooney

Now, do you suppose that Nasedo knows this information too? And what would it mean regarding Liz's kidnapping by Maxcedo? Is that how she is still useful, because she has been changed and he knows it?

I warned everyone back that an altered-enhanced-changed Liz does not mean Max and Liz have the green light to go.... Destiny still has to be dealt with and the fact that the SSers seemed to know Liz was changed did nothing to alter the grand design.

I am sorry to make this observation, but I know the Max and Liz belong together and I am glad that their struggle will continue. It keeps the romanace!

"Then Michael went to investigate something and ended up making out with Courtney. What they cut out of the epsiode was that a scene where she touches him and he starts having these wierd flashes; there's this obvious alien connection. It's why, even though he never really liked her, he made out with her. But something happened right there that made him kiss her. It wasn't supposed to be Michael cheating on Maria. It was supposed to be this undeniable force. But he ended up looking like the bad guy, which wasn't really the story."

Sound familiar????? It is the exact TLV Tess/Max scenario. Also it would establish that the the flashes during physical contact are not solely a Max/Liz phenomenon but an alien/alien phenomenon.

QFanny - about the dupes shapeshifter - we dont know much about him at all. I really wonder how much of a presence he was - after all - Nasedo was not in the posters life for long. Adter re-reading the transcript to TLV - I still think the theory that Nikolas was their shapeshifter has merit. I am wondering if the "skin" Nikolas could have been killed and is being impersonated by a shapeshifter. This might explain why he does not peel. There is a HUGE continuity issue in that in CW's diaries she never mentions the dupes BUT Nikolas obviously had contact/a relationship with them.

As for the cut dialoge and being warned not to bring people back. I have to believe that it was cut intentionally. In ARCC we have an otherworldy "visitor" ENCOURAGING Max to heal in order to restore the balance.
If anything - I believe it suggests sinister intentions on the part of the shapeshifter. Perhaps he knew that the healing was part of the prophecy of the "choosen one" and was trying to thwart her creation (like the king locking all the spinning wheels up in Sleeping Beauty to try to keep the prophecy from being fulfilled). Maybe the shapeshifter was in on the plot to assasinate Liz - and so he warned the Zan not to heal anyone (not realizing he had the dupes).
Mom-o-gram tells the kids "learn to use your powers" and Max's signature power is the ability to HEAL. It is what he instinctively did - even as a child when he healed the pigeon. Surely - he would not have been given a power and been told to learn to use it if doing so was a bad thing. To me - its just another bit of evidence that the shapeshifter was NOT on their side.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox, nice post too LOL, I just about to say practically that same thing so there is no use in repeating it. About Nicholas and his lack of peeling, I rewatched Harvest recently and I still had the same feelings about it as last time, when Nicholas came in and spoke to Isabel in the bedroom well he seemed like a sweet boy, and Isabel says to Tess, well you came crashing in b4 I could really talk to him or something like that. Then in the next scene of Nicholas, Isabel follows him to the husks, he seems DIFFERENT and SHADY---I was wondering right there if someone had taken over as Nicholas, a shapeshifter if you will. I don't know that was just the feeling I got the first time I watched it and then in rewatching it, however I don't wear them out like my season1 tapes so I might have missed things LOL.

Grace: Not that I understand what this means any more than you do, but I just finished watching Missing. At the end of the episode when Liz and Max are talking in the library/stack portion of the UFO center (Max is shelving books) and discussing that the journal has been returned, he stands in front of a sign/label on the shelf that says "Roswell Rods, Real Facts". Immediately I thought of your question.

I also wondered about why they had those words next to Tess in MTD. It seems obviously to mean something, but I can't think of what either one of these would relate to? What are Roswell Rods???

Thanks again for examining the signs on Max's forehead in M2M. Still think it is either a W or U, then the V (royal seal), then a 4.

Reguru: Guess what! I know what Roswell Rods are! I actually saw this on the sci-fi channel just the other day. It would appear that photographers and video camera buffs have been getting these weird rod shaped images on their film. It looks kind of like a very small rod with undulating wings. About the size of an insect. The wings do not flap, but actually move like a wave. They apparently move at tremendous speeds because most people do not see them even if they were photographed right in front of them. No one knows what they are. Sceptics say they are trash on the lens or bad film. Believer say they are living alien creatures.

I believe that there is a web site on this very subject. I don't have the address, but I saw it when I was looking for alien writing sites.

Just thought that you might like to know.

As far as seeing the word RODS and the book about Rods. It would appear that the writers or set people could be putting little things like that in, because they know that a big part of their audience are computer savvy and they know that as soon as we see something like that we will rush right on to the boards and start talking about it and being the geeks that we are we will hit the net for some heavy duty research. If nothing else we will be the best informed people on the planet in terms of ancient writing, signs, astronomy, and all things alien related.

That is such a weird coincidence! Or not? Maybe the pic in my calendar is bad. Or maybe Shiri really does have those freckles. Or maybe they put it in there on purpose to show us a clue-a big one. Like, Liz has the Royal seal right on her chest! NAH! Sorry I just freaked when I saw it. I wonder if they would ever consider using that in the show though. It is obvious that Shiri's freckles form that shape (that is assuming that my pic isn't messed up).

What do you guys think?

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

[URL=]http://www.thewb.com/roswell/behind/wipeout/[/URL]

In the cut scenese of Destiny the mom-o-gram says that she sent Max's bride, his love & inspiration...Tess does not inspire Max, from the day she came to Roswell she has never inspired Max, Liz has always done that. Now I don't know if I'm ready to believe that she's 1/2 alien, or that she's been 1/2 alien this hole time, because I'm spoiled, but I do believe that she might be the real bride. It's a definite possibility!

I've posted this Ava/Tess theory somewhere else once, probably on the CHADS board, but here seems good too. In So47 when Hal saw the 8 pods maybe what happened was that one of the glowy aliens dropped Ava's pod and that's why it was leaky, if she's even the leaky pod. But when the alien saw that it dropped the pod it was all like, "oh crap! I'm dead!" looks around then thinks, "ok, nobody saw that...I'll just switch it with this dupe pod and nobody will ever know the difference." So then Ava's pod gets switched with Tess's pod and Ava ends up with the dupes and Tess ends up with our podsters, which isn't how it was supposed to be. Did that make sense? -Do what you please with that theory, I'm just posting it to help fill holes in theories, help other people think of theories, help other people finish theories, not that it will or anything, but to make a long story short I'm just here to help the cause

One more thing about Tess: In a script of Wipe Out I found at the WB, it said that Tess's fireball was a mind warp...I thought it was some newfound power or somethin? So did she mind warp her fellow pod people into believing that she killed the skins? And really all she did was make the skins think that some giant wall of fire was coming towards them so they all pushted their deactivate buttons and Nicholas ran away?

Now here are some questions. 1. Who is Dr. Margolian? and 2. when you say clicking what exactly do you mean? New here, took me forever to read and I'm still not done, so if it's been explained about Tess clicking or whatever sorry.

Cool!

Sunrise - whether or not the flashes are a purely alien phenomenon or not is the 64,000 question!!!! But I do find the cut scene with Courtney to be VERY interesting - gives us a big clue that the writers may consider flashes to be alien. Actually - JK said as much in his commentary to SH. That Liz's flashes were "alien in nature" - now that could mean she was seeing alien (Max) things - or it could mean that it was an alien PART of her "waking up" or "changing chemically".

SweetJo - I have not seen the Roswell calender but I HEAR that it doesnt have a single picture of Tess in it - which is pretty significant if you ask me.

GraceKel - great minds think alike - LOL!!!!
What do you think about the fact that Topolski and Tess both KARATE KICK their enemies?????

Norma - the shooting script for Wipeout is interesting because it is so different from what ended up on screen - it was discussed a bit at the end of the last thread.

SugarPlum - Dr Margolian was the Dr from the insane asylum that Topolski "escaped from" in Crazy. He ended up being a shapeshifter.

Finally - there have been some spoiler references lately - please remember NO SPOILERS!!!!!!
If you say something like this "Well - I have been reading spoilers and so I am going to say that Liz is going to grow purple antenna next season" THAT WOULD BE GIVING A SPOILER!!! Because you are basically telling everyone that what you are about to share is influenced by a spoiler.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

It's interesting that Nasedo made it very clear to the podsters that he was there to protect them not to guide them. Even when they asked him about the orbs, he warned them against using them(saying they weren't ready), but he didn't try to stop them. You'd think if he thought the orbs might alert an enemy: he would've stopped them. Stopping them would've been like protecting them from something they weren't ready for. But he didn't. On the other hand, the dupes protecter sounds like he was guiding them: in the cut scene from MITC,Ava made it sound like their protector, stopped short of forbidding them to bring humans back from the dead. Not to mention the fact that he told them about the Granilith (according Lonnie, if she was telling the truth) And then there's the fact that Nasedo only raised one of the royals, and used the excuse that he couldn't find them as the reason why he wasn't there. But the dupes protector had no problems finding them or raising them. It definitely sounds as if there was a huge difference between the dupes protector and Nasedo. Why would the dupes protector tell them so much, and Nasedo would tell the Royals so litte?? And who was Nasedo running from back in 1959?? Remember Riverdog said that Nasedo left because "he was afraid they were going to kill him. He felt they were close to finding him." Could that have been the skins(Nicholas)?? You'd think he would've been able to hide himself from the FBI, being a shapeshifter, but from the skins it might not have been so easy once they were on to him.

Is there a place on the internet where I can find Roswell's uncut scripts?? I thought someone mentioned a place earlier, but I can't seem to find it.

Starbox- Which episode did Topolsky drop kick an enemy???

Long story short (and I think someone mentioned before the whole chess game connection in Roswell, so I apologize if this is redundant) - I thought this was very interesting if you link it to Roswell. There are eight podsters (so far). Liz is the White Queen (and there is "white" again with regard to her!!), Max the White King, Michael maybe a knight, Ava seems like a pawn (used by the Dupes), etc. You see where I am going with this, right?? Well, thinking in these terms also brings up a lot of questions - who are the Black Queen and King (Lonnie/Rath or perhaps the Skins like Nicholas)? What is the next "move"? And perhaps most important, who is in control of the board?

Just thought I would throw that out there. I hope that was ok The similarities just struck me when I thought of it.

Starbox- Which episode did Topolsky drop kick an enemy???

[/B]
Here is dialouge from Missing:
STEVENS: You're forgetting something, Agent. The word covertly. To covertly observe the subjects to determine whether or not the theories about them are substantiated. Covertly!
TOPOLSKY: I've been acting covertly.
STEVENS: Drop-kicking the sheriff. You call that covertly?
TOPOLSKY: The sheriff was endangering my operation.
STEVENS: Your operation?!?
TOPOLSKY: Our operation.

The drop-kick occured in Atherton's house in 285South.
Also in Missing you see her practicing in her office - I almost pulled the screencap yesterday.

All this talk about the Topolski/Tess connection reminded me of Tess's drop-kick and how it had seemed odd at the time. Now I remember why - we saw Topolski use the same technique last season.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Here is one I have used but it only has season 1: http://www.roswellscripts.com/
I had a email abit ago from the webmaster that he/she plans to update season 2 soon.

Here is another one that I have yet to explore, but just found http://teentvmovies.about.com/teens/teentvmovies/cs/scripts/

Sometimes, you will find someone at the Crashdown site who has purchased or won a script and they will post the contents.

Maybe there were 2 twin handmaidens, Ava and Tess. Maybe Liz was the real bride, but was murdered, because she is the "keeper" of the granolith, and all it's power. So in order to protect Liz, they put in the twin handmaidens, one in one group and the other in the other group.

Maybe that's why Ava seems to be more pro Max/Liz? and Tess may have some of the memories of Max "loving" her by mistake??? Or maybe someone else loved Tess in her former life and she is confused

One more thing, Grace Kel was it you who asked about the clicking sound in MITC? I need to go back to the tape and see it again, before I can give you anythin concrete, but it reminds me something called the Death Rattle. I don't know if it's something real or not seeing as how I got it from a book, but IF it's real then maybe it's the same? Dunno. See, I got it from the Roswell High books and if you've read them then you'll remember in book 4 when Max is about to die and Liz described this wet clicking coming from him and she asked herself it that was what they called the death rattle. I know, I know, my source isn't very reliable, but it's the best I can come up with for now

Gotta go, I'll be back later!

Roxy

Over yonder on the Survivor thread, our dear Liz is being targeted. And will be shipped off the island unless we can turn the tides.

Liz is a member of the Dreamer/Donor Alliance and we're targeting Brody and Lonnie. In the name of Liz, keep her on the island.

http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/004554.html Go forth and save Liz.

Jessica

This cap is from Toyhouse. If you look over Isabels shoulder you can see two head sculptures on the shelf, on the show you can see three. Two are black and one is white. Meaning only two of the podters are from the same race, and a fourth does not exist.

This one shows Max painting white over black. Meaning he could be of the black race and is covering up that fact, or he is choosing white over black, or I could be reading way to much into this and he is just beeing sweet Max and doing home repair.

Evid

Sunrise--thanks for that info about the DEATH RATTLE from the books yes I have read the books but had forgotten about this, although the show doesn't really use book information I believe but it could be something similar--thanks for the information.

Reguru--as for the forehead symbolism I only saw what looked like a W U but I did notice outside the crashdown I do remember seeing a W do you remember this?

Starbox--Topolsky did not really drop kick the sheriff she bashed him over the head didn't she----the Topolsky/Tess connection? Well here is the only way I would connect them---I remember in the MORNING AFTER Topolsky confessed to Liz that she had a PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY---now here is TESS with all those pics---she is over at the EVANS looking at photos of Max and Isabel when they were children---I always wondered about this.

I can see what you are saying about the significance of each pic, but I am reading them differently - (1) first pic may not necessarily mean the number of real podsters but maybe who will conflict? two (Lonnie/Rath) against one (Max)? (2) Max may not be covering up that he is "black". Perhaps it is foreshadowing that white will prevail? or even more sinister, that a "white" will help a "black" somehow, and thereby cover up that way.

All so interesting...I still think Liz fits in as the white queen. Must think more....

I guess that would make Max and Isabel black, and Michael white. No wonder Michael always feels the odd man out. I'd vote Liz as the white queen, too. She certainly looked it in ARCC, wearing the white sweater, and Max all in black.

Maybe for balance they need a black king and a white queen. That might be the only way to stop the war.

Black is usually evil and white good, but did any of you ever read the Recluse book series where black was Order and white was Chaos? It's probably not that simple, but black and white are a good way to illustrate 2 opposing sides.

Starbox- Which episode did Topolsky drop kick an enemy???

Here is dialouge from Missing:
STEVENS: You're forgetting something, Agent. The word covertly. To covertly observe the subjects to determine whether or not the theories about them are substantiated. Covertly!
TOPOLSKY: I've been acting covertly.
STEVENS: Drop-kicking the sheriff. You call that covertly?
TOPOLSKY: The sheriff was endangering my operation.
STEVENS: Your operation?!?
TOPOLSKY: Our operation.

The drop-kick occured in Atherton's house in 285South.
Also in Missing you see her practicing in her office - I almost pulled the screencap yesterday.

All this talk about the Topolski/Tess connection reminded me of Tess's drop-kick and how it had seemed odd at the time. Now I remember why - we saw Topolski use the same technique last season.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Very cool stuff on the black/white chess imagery. I remember someone mentioned the book about the white queen a few threads back but I dont remember who.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

They were talking about the Golden Ratio and Fibonacci Numbers in nature. Apparently it's some geometric number that occurs in a swirl shape or rectangle shape in nature and the things that were mentioned as having these shapes were alpha helix, sunflowers,shell spirals, pinecones, galaxies(swirl) and playing cards(rectangle).

Here's a link I dug up on it that explains it further: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibnat.html

I was just intrigued at how many of these symbols relate back to what has been seen this season -- with the pinecones, sunflowers and from last season with the shells (from Liz's room in Leaving Normal) and the playing cards (from Into the Woods...)
The Golden Ratio is described as a fundamental ratio found over and over again in nature that seems to please human perceptions. I don't know if it relates to the whole balance idea or how it ties in with Liz exactly but I'll let you guys think on it if you'd like to!

I thought it related well with all of your numbers and symbols! Good luck!

I've been very busy with work, etc., but have up-dated the intro - SOOOOOO, if we get to 250/page 10 in the morning, I'm asking the [b]Moderators[b/] to be patient! I'm skiing in the morning, but will check in asap when I get back to get the new thread up. [b]Please don't close this one down until then! Thanks!![b/]

To Sleep!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer ...Home again to my 26400 bps connection that seems fast in comparison to my parents' AOL

I am really punchy (up for almost 24 hours), but really loved the Sleeping Beauty reference, Starbox, and if you get a chance, you should post it on BehrAll's thread too.

In the Hawaiian sky right now (where I no longer am) Venus is so bright in the West that it looks more like a space ship than a planet. And the half moon there has the flat side on top instead of on a side.

nermal & Evid, I loved your posts on the B&W symbolisms because you both touched on the stereotype of Black as negative which I think it is important for us to be aware of (that it is a stereotype) when we discuss these traditional uses of the Black & White as symbols. Okay, I warned you guys that I'm not really awake, but I think you know what I mean, and I love Chess symbolisms. BTW, Chess sets are not necessarily B&W, but for clarity those terms are used when discussing a particular match or stratedgy.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox, yes you are right Topolsky was practicing her KARATE moves when talking to Agent Stevens on the phone. hmmmmmm! And what did you think of the connection about Topolsky saying she had a PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY?

No, I am not sure what 'W' outside of the Crashdown you are referring to. Let me know and I will check it out. Off the top of my head, I cannot connect W or U with anything. Will have to check Lyra's site (thanks) to see what mysteries it may explain.

ATTENTION LIZ MYTHOLOGISTS! ATTENTION LIZ MYTHOLOGISTS! I would like to ask you all to go to the survivor thread to help keep Liz on the island. The dreamer alliance is voting Lonnie and Brody off the island while the other alliance is voting Liz off! It's just a game and all in good fun, but we need help from Liz/RBI shippers. The M/L/A alliance believes Liz should stay cuz she has always been essential to the survival of the gang, doesn't she always come up with a plan to save their butts? We cannot allow her to be kicked off so please show your support and vote Lonnie or Brody off. This round is over Monday morning, so if you wanna wait until the last minute to see where your vote is needed the most, we'd appreciate it Thanks!

k, just had to recruit your help, but i saw Jessica was here earlier!

or you can choose to ignore me

Later
Roxy

Evid

Just thought of something else - not too significant, but Evid, in the pic you posted with Max painting white over black...well, when you combine the two colors, you get gray. Perhaps the symbolism or foreshadowing isn't necessarily that one or the other will prevail but that the two will combine in such a way as to make them indistinguishable. I am not sure I am being clear. I guess I am thinking along the lines that maybe the two colors (ie races) will blend or combine forces to become one color. Who knows how - alien + human = hybrid??

Ok, back to reading....

Finally - there have been some spoiler references lately - please remember NO SPOILERS!!!!!!
If you say something like this "Well - I have been reading spoilers and so I am going to say that Liz is going to grow purple antenna next season" THAT WOULD BE GIVING A SPOILER!!! Because you are basically telling everyone that what you are about to share is influenced by a spoiler.

About the "rods"- there are (supposed to be) several kinds of UFOs. There's the traditional "flying saucer" shape, and also a cigar or "rod" shape. If you're going to have a UFO Museum, it makes sense to have an exhibit on "Flying Saucers", and one on "Rods". (Someone look at the rest of that exhibit, if you can. GraceKel? )

As for spoilers, it's also *not OK* to take something you've seen on the spoilers, and present it as your idea over here. "Hey, I think Max has the Royal Trademark on his brain!" would be a spoiler, before MITC aired; even if you didn't say it was a spoiler. Any leakage is unwelcome! Finally, if you must look at spoilers, take them with a grain of salt! They are often inaccurate.

Remember:
This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?

Zero
I Shall Believe!

How did Liz know that she was kissing Nasedo instead of Max? When she kissed him she only saw a vision of a void.

What did this tell Liz about Nasedo? That he had no soul.

I know that Liz does see stuff like a wormhole and Sheila when she kisses Nasedo, But I thought it was interesting.

Anyway - been watching the Pilot. I actually had never seen the first 15 minutes of the first episode (I had an infant when it first aired who had not fallen asleep yet).

One quick thing I noticed was that at one point Liz is shown in front of a big dry-erase board with the crashdown schedule on it and the shift you see is 4-5. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 4 to 5 is not really a typical "workshift" - but it does mean something in terms of the four aliens and the FIFTH ELEMENT. The shift underneath it (there are only two shifts you see) is 3-6. My husband noted that both shifts add up to 9.

Also - it struck me as odd as to HOW much Liz was covering for Max immediately after the accident. It was almost as if - on some level - she instinctively KNEW he was an alien. I mean - I know he had just healed her - but it doesnt seem like Mrs. Logical Science Nerd would instinctively assume he was an alien she needed to protect.
One other quick comment and I am off to watch more Roswell - LOL (no sleeping for ME tonight!) - when the shooters pulled the gun - EVERYONE ducked and Maria yelled to Liz.
Liz seemed frozen in time. It struck me as odd. It was almost as if she couldnt move - like she was maybe watching history repeat itself........ I think someone mentioned post traumatic stress disorder and Max - well I have actually had PTSD and I can tell you that Liz's reaction to seeing that gun was a textbook PTSD response.

Anyway - hope everyone is having a great weekend. Zero - hope you had fun skiing :-)
GraceKel - I do think the photographic memory comment is suspicious.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Now on Earth, he has found his true soulmate. Is it because Liz's family has an alien connection from the past? Is it just fate that has brought them together this time? Does Liz have a connection to the pods or to Sheila Hubble? I hope so. It makes it much more fun.

MTK

MTK - The Whitaker Diary is posted on at www.silverhandprint.com - a site that is somehow connected to the show's creators. You have to click on one of the symbols. There are also some great "interviews" of the actors in-character, and the reporter's (forgot her name) notes from Summer of '47. I highly recommend reading, listening to it.

BTW - Welcome to all the newbies! Remember you are always welcome to lurk, but we love it when you post your thoughts. And don't be concerned about repeating what might have been said before!

I have nothing new to add - but I will be back tomorrow in case we reach time for a new thread!

PS - Starbox - Aren't those first season episodes a blast to watch!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

That is such a weird coincidence! Or not? Maybe the pic in my calendar is bad. Or maybe Shiri really does have those freckles. Or maybe they put it in there on purpose to show us a clue-a big one. Like, Liz has the Royal seal right on her chest! NAH! Sorry I just freaked when I saw it. I wonder if they would ever consider using that in the show though. It is obvious that Shiri's freckles form that shape (that is assuming that my pic isn't messed up).

What do you guys think?

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!
[/B]

Oh my gosh! I just got my calendar today and hadn't noticed that, but when I read that I flipped to the page and you're right!!! It's in my pic too and it's definitely not just a bad pic. On the cover, however, you can only see one of the freckles...I'm guessing they airbrushed them out? Or maybe you're right about the hint!!
Delving a bit deeper into it, I just looked closely at the surrounding quotes on the March 2001 page. Topolsky and Liz talking about science; Liz saying how "in science there are answers, facts." Maybe those freckles are a part of our answer...
-fp.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamerWell, about 12 hours ago I casually started to type in a link to the "Pierce As Evil/Enemy Alien" theory page, and, being my usual obsessive self, I checked the link first. Well, Lo and Behold (the two Angels of my oldest daughter's childhood): Eek! All my Web sites were Gone! So, here we are back up after hours of transferring by a nice young man at my ISP and hours of rearranging by me.

You will also see that the link to the old Liz Mythology threads has changed it's format.

How did Liz know that she was kissing Nasedo instead of Max? When she kissed him she only saw a vision of a void.

What did this tell Liz about Nasedo? That he had no soul.

I know that Liz does see stuff like a wormhole and Sheila when she kisses Nasedo, But I thought it was interesting.

Actually that was information from some cut scenes of Max to the Max. The final version with the wormhole and Shelia was what was used. If the trivia book was written before MTTM was finished and they had received an early draft of the script, that would explain the descrepancy. In the earlier version, Liz confronts Nacedo about what she saw and shocks him with the revelation of her receiving a vision. Liz saw the worm hole and in the confrontation said something to the effect that he had no soul.

Welcome to all the delurking and new posters :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Just a thought here, but could the symbols on Max's head from the destiny book be some sort of 'prophecy' that the king would have the royal seal stenciled on his brain? I haven't looked closely at the symbols, but it just seems to me that these things are related.

Sorry if this has been discussed before...

I think there is no question that the V in the middle of Max's head is the Royal Seal (which we discover in MITC is stenciled on his brain). I take what looks to be a 4 to the right of the V as applying to the Royal Four. What no one yet has been able to decipher is the symbol to the far left (either a U or W). Any thoughts?

You will also see that the link to the old Liz Mythology threads has changed it's format.

OH NO!

Weird stuff has been happening all over! I hope you got my email about maxcedo@hotmail....

Happy season one viewing... Since you posted on the first 15 minutes of Pilot, what do you think? Could the shooters be FutureMax and FutureMichael in the first of the Run Lola Run scenerios? When the one shooter says, "No get out of here," to Maria, it sounds so much like a Michael line.

Also, I took a look at the Pierce as an evil alien again, and my list is what I intially thought about Pierce, but there are a lot of things on it that are wrong.... I think what I wrote I posted before the great pruning, but I don't remember.

I am anxiously awaiting to see what you think of the Tess/Topolosky/Shapeshifter possibility in Crazy!

Hopeful_Lurker

As for your assessment of Liz freezing in time when the shooters started fighting, as if she was reliving this scene (shadows of Run Lola Run), you are right and it would make sense with the premise that we are reliving this life again, hoping to get it right this time!! Curious to hear your assessment of who the shooters are: Max and Michael, shapeshifters or... K'var and cohort?

Metaphysical Girl: Could the W (or M if you view it upside down) on Max's head represent the mountain housing the Granolith, here on Earth? After all, he has been called to save this planet too right? And it is the sign that completes the V formation!

Happy season one viewing... Since you posted on the first 15 minutes of Pilot, what do you think? Could the shooters be FutureMax and FutureMichael in the first of the Run Lola Run scenerios? When the one shooter says, "No get out of here," to Maria, it sounds so much like a Michael line.

Also, I took a look at the Pierce as an evil alien again, and my list is what I intially thought about Pierce, but there are a lot of things on it that are wrong.... I think what I wrote I posted before the great pruning, but I don't remember.

I am anxiously awaiting to see what you think of the Tess/Topplosky/Shapeshifter possibility in Crazy!

Starbox~~~

Happy season one viewing... Since you posted on the first 15 minutes of Pilot, what do you think? Could the shooters be FutureMax and FutureMichael in the first of the Run Lola Run scenerios? When the one shooter says, "No get out of here," to Maria, it sounds so much like a Michael line.

Also, I took a look at the Pierce as an evil alien again, and my list is what I intially thought about Pierce, but there are a lot of things on it that are wrong.... I think what I wrote I posted before the great pruning, but I don't remember.

I am anxiously awaiting to see what you think of the Tess/Topolosky/Shapeshifter possibility in Crazy!

*******************************************

QFanny - I am almost convinced that the shooters were not trying to KILL Liz - but they were trying to force Max into fulfilling the prophecy and healing Liz. IF they were from the future (and I bleieve they were) and were trying to actually assasinate Liz - they would have picked a time and place without Max present. I am not sure about them actually BEING Max and Micheal - but I can see them being sent by Twilo "authority". I can also see them being "religious radicals" - the type that attempt to force prohecy into "coming true" in order to reach a desired result.

The Pierce as Evil Alien file was really interesting - pruning or no pruning - I think you could add alot to it though.

I am actually playing with the idea of starting a thread for conspiricy theory (my husband thinks I should call in the New Mexico Militia - LOL!) I think the framework has been laid for ALOT of conspiricy theory - with the podsters having been lied to by the shapeshifter and by EA that have infiltrated the government (surely CW wasnt the only one). Also - the idea that Tess could not be who says she is. It seems that on most of the boards - these ideas are still "fringe" concepts - and that most watchers are accepting Roswell largely at face value (Tess is the bride, Harding was a helper, Toplosky and Pierce were just government agents) - but I think that the writers have put in tons of clues and loose ends so that if (when) Roswell hits its fourth or fifth season they can go back and play with the conspiricy elements.

Then again - I may just be totally crazy
:-) :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Ya know...I really have no idea what that last symbol could be. I went to page 1 of this thread to look at it again, and I couldn't help noticing that it *could* be the Granolith. If you scroll down a little from where the pic was posted with the symbols on Max's head...there is a pic of the Granolith. I dunno, it *kind* of looks like it. If you look at the symbol, then look at the pic of the Granolith, you can kind of see it.

Yeah, I know, I'm totally reaching on this one. But hey, I thought I would put it out there and see if anyone else noticed it too.

{~}:}

Excellent! The Granilith rock. I like this and it would fit together with the other symbols. Of course, the question is, why would it be upsidedown? But hey, a theory is better than no theory at all, which is where I was.

But it was never meantioned. At least that I remembered. But that's one of the things that bugs be about the whole idea of Harding being Nescedo. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Up until now, I just assumed that it was his hair line, but if you pull the pic into a photo program and enlarge you can see that it definitely is not his hairline. It looks to me like W V u ( a little u with the tail). Very strange! I will have to think about it for a while and see if I have any of those letters or symbols listed anywhere.

I also noticed something else while looking at the pictures that I had not noticed before and I don't believe any one else has mentioned. Max, Michael, and Iz's pictures all contain shadowed areas on the left side of their faces like you would see in a photo taken with the sun to one side of you. If you will notice, the picture of Tess is not shadowed at all. That is just wierd.

This observation could lend itself to the theory that Tess is an imposter that does not actually belong with the podsters and that the book was faked to include her or the real picture of the person was replaced with her picture, which does not match the drawings of the others.

Boy that was a really long run-on sentence!!!

What do you think? I also found another book picture that has what appears to be younger versions of the podsquad. I have not studied it yet.

{Originally posted by Hopeful_Lurker:
"So, does that mean that Nasedo and Tic-Tac are different entities, each one protecting the Royal Four seperately."}

Not necessarily; it just "proves" that Harding and Tic-tac are different entities. (There is a lot of other proof, "Maxcedo" probably has it posted.) Your point is one of those we've made, that Harding wasn't Nacedo. We don't know for sure that Harding is Nasedo; in fact, I've argued that he isn't. We saw Tess pick up the name Nasedo for her "father", but he never said "I'm Nacedo". He also acts unlike the way Riverdog said Nacedo acted.And Reg, it doesn't even necessarily mean that they were separate entities if Nasedo had been on earth long enough to, say, have picked up the 300-year-old Buddha when it was hot off the press. In that case, "not as long as I've been looking for you" could have referred to the centuries before the crash. Or (and more likely given the silverhandprint.com journals), it could refer to the time from 1947 to when Tess was hatched. But, admittedly, it doesn't explain why--if Harding & TicTac were the same being known as Nasedo--he never made himself known until they were in high school.

Qf, got your message. Either Maxcedo has grown shy about sharing his email with me , or my settings have been tweaked to where I'm just not getting them the way I used to.

Or: the W (as in WB: Warner Bros. as somebody pointed out! he he he), may be the M put upside down on purpose, simply because it may have been drawn that way to mean something related to the Granolith and/or Earth. i.e.: the M means Earth. The W means either the Granolith on Earth per se or the Chosen One who is on Earth right now and who belongs to the King, who is destined to be with the King or is the key to the Granolith and is destined to work the Granolith together with the King (sorry, no need to tell you I'm a Dreamer and they always end up together!!). The W is simply a corrected M and all it says is that that person <ahem> belongs to/with the King: Max!

Here is the map - you can see a large symbol over Max's hand/Liz's neck that looks sort of like a "w" type symbol - but then the W is also in to top left hand side of the cap.
Dont know what it means - but it would seem to relate to Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

To add to my other post, or to clarify more accurately: The W...notice how in the middle there is a little triangle pointing upwards... Well, on the bottom of the Granolith there is a triangle (of sorts) as well. So if you look at the W symbol from that perspective...well it *could* be the actual Granolith. The two sides of the W are the chamber, and the Granolith is represented by the triangle. If you notice the actual "w" symbol that is on Max's head in the destiny book resembles a W, but actually looks like something else. It is completely *stretched* out... come to think of it, so is this theory...

Yikes.

I'm not good at posting pics, but maybe this visual will help -- if it works.

[B]

for all the number people, i was just watching the Pilot again (thanks to RG17's downloads) and realized that Liz was shot on Sept. 23. I also remembered that the christmas pagent in ARCC was the 23rd annual. 5's are all over the place!

also, for all the dedicated RBI's during the lapse between new episodes, i thought i saw a glowing alien face in Wipeout in the window of the Crashdown. This was right behind Kyle as Liz and Maria are being attacked by a skin. At one point the camera pans around and Kyle is just standing there and behind him I always thought i saw a white alien face, but i don't have slow-mo on my VCR and it goes by too fast to tell. If someone is rewatching this ep, look for this and tell me if i'm just seeing things.

Did anyone else notice that the shadow on the wall created by Max and Liz holding hands actually looks like the Granolith?

Do you see it????? Hmmmmmm....

(sorry if this has been discussed before)

When Harding said originally "not as long as I've been looking for you", I really thought he had been looking through the centuries! But, if time travel was only achieved because Serena and Liz tweaked the Granolith to make it work like one, then Harding has been looking for them only since 1947!. Why? what happened in 1947? The two glowing aliens were there, they picked up the pods from the Base by whatever means. One of them took the Dupes, the other our kids. The New Mexico SS took them to the Granolith cave and left them there 64 years! But he knew where they were! Then, sometime in late 1983, Harding came to N.M. and entered the chamber. Surprise: only one was there and the other 3 had disappeared. hmmm.... If I had an ounce of brains (which my husband says I don't if all my gray matter is dedicated to Roswell in its entirety :lol , then I would either think that they just hatched and look for them in the surrounding area (64 years is enough to learn English - he could have gone to the Library!), or I would think that somebody came at some point during the past 64 years and stole them away! hmmm... If they just hatched, he should have located them within hours, not days! If I thought it was the other option, then that's what Intelligence Covert Operations would come in handy. In 64 years he must have had some sort of contact with other aliens and he would have known at least that they were in the US (infiltration in enemy camp should be easy for a shapeshifter, considering the Skins are not so versed in powers and Nicholas, regardless of how strong he may be, was buried in the little town of Copper Summit, having to go to school and being bossed around by everybody!). So... it's very suspicious that it took him so long to find them! I think Tic Tac has always been close by, keeping an eye on them (Phil Evans anybody?), and Harding is an enemy who gave them a flimsy excuse for "not finding" them. And that would make sense because he did brainwash Tess into thinking she was what she is not!

Looks like we are over 250 - moderators - please be patient - Zero is ready to put the new thread up as soon as she logs in again.:-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Thanks for letting us know! We'll keep an eye out for Part 25...

OK, I don't want this to get lost on the new thread...but I have to say the more I look at these two images together, the more I am convinced that the symbol on the left IS the Granolith!

Come on now...anybody? Am I on crack or does anybody else see this too?

(I'm kidding about the crack comment)

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Come on now...anybody? Am I on crack or does anybody else see this too?

I think at least 4 of us agree so far, Bluecornmoon, you, Starbox and me. So unless we are all on something hallucinogenic, we may be on to something. Actually, this has been bugging me since the beginning of this thread when I noticed it for the first time after myriad viewings of M2TM. As difficult as it has been since MITC, except for ARCC, to have no new Roswell eps, it has provided an opportunity to uncover new things that hadn't been noticed before. Surely has helped carry me through this dry period.

When Ask Not reruns on Monday, notice the wall behind Max when he is talking to Maria about how to be a leader and how he is to know how to make good decisions. You will see a sign saying "Harvest"! Loved that!

quote:Originally posted by megageekgirl:

This observation could lend itself to the theory that Tess is an imposter that does not actually belong with the podsters and that the book was faked to include her or the real picture of the person was replaced with her picture, which does not match the drawings of the others.

Yes, I agree. It's VERY significant that the book came from Tess in the first place. Though it has a great deal of interesting symbolism it may not necesssarily have a great deal of TRUTH about it. She pulled it out of the wall in the library - who's to say she (or Harding) didn't alter it or create it flat out for personal/team gain? I say again (rather loudly) where is that book now, anyway?!

By the way, it does disturb me that Tess is the one who initially led Max to the location of the Pod Chamber. What episode was that, Four Square? If you watch it again, notice that Tess takes him out into the desert at night and all of a sudden it's daytime and she leads him to the pod chamber. It's very much like Brody's description of abduction and the lapse of time in Meet the Dupes. Most Suspicious.

I believe:
1) Tess is not one of the royal four, though she may not know it; I like the theory that she is a one of a protector species but thinks she's the bride because of Harding's influence

2) The main mission of the podsters is to develop their humanness in order to survive and that their survival and the perpetuation of their species (or what's left of it) can only take place on Earth, because

3)Twilo no longer physically exists. (See explosion of red star in Sexual Healing and Ask Not.)

4)Liz is an evolved human as a result of the healing (Qfanny, ) though I wonder if even as a human...

5)she may be the fourth podster. The last time I watched the momogram it seemed unclear the bride really was. On second viewing, I thought mom was talking about Liz, not Tess.

What if Tess knew that if she got the four of them in the pod chamber (Max, Is, Michael and Liz) that the Mommogram would be activated by their collective essence! What if she got a free ride because it looked like mom was talking about her when in fact it was LIZ all along... Still I couch this by saying that Tess's manipulations could be a result of Harding's influence on her.

Also, I'm not particularly concerned with the Nikolas and Khivar issues, because their power is in the existance of a great political war on Twilo. Since I think there's no kingdom left to go home to, their power is greatly diminished although their evil intent can be dangerous. They think they're fighting for Twilo; they're really fighting for what remains of their own lives.

Finally, I think the freckles were airbrushed ON for that calendar to get us talking! Liz may have a V constellation on her chest (cool) but I doubt Ms. Appleby does.

Please let her stay with Max and help him through the alien mythology!