Background

We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, season after season (a little optimism there ), finding “clues” to Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology and other relevant topics – and there are a lot of them! – and then developing theories and potential storylines based on these (often well hidden) clues! Shapeshifter and Qfanny have graciously agreed to set up a single link to the former threads that are available to read (if you have a week or two). You can find it at the following link http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology (but be patient, they will have thread #24 up in good time ) .

The following is a LONG summary (oxymoron?) of some of the clues, thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I have been trying to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled; however, not all clues identified are listed or theories are covered in-depth (remember, I – Zero – am a mere human being with limited human brain capacity, so can only retain so many details).

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings – especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance! We are a friendly – though seriously anal retentive – group! So – dive in, and join the fun!!

Liz is Important – The Liz/Max Connection

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions – or is it time zones? - recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz and felt a special connection to her. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all apparently due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that “connection” irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t let go of the connection. After events in NY, Max seems willing to give their Friendship another try, and in “A Roswell Christmas Carol,” his turning to Liz for help in his time of need, only confirms that even more. As Max says in the end – once Liz has helped him overcome his trial of conscience – he “believes in her!” There is MORE to the Liz/Max connection than just a romantic relationship, as we have always assumed. She is his trusted advisory, his sound of reason, she is the yin to his yang, and she helps him helps him connect to his human side, finding that there is strength in his humanity. BUT - Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions re: that connection have been answered this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Consequence of the Connection – the Change?

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz. We now know from the events in MITC that LIZ WAS CHANGED, and is developing powers, but how come?! How has that change come about? Whether the change in Liz was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Apparently Future Max knew Liz had the potential to “change” since he made the comment that she wasn’t letting it happen, but did he know the true potential of that change and what initiated it or prevented it from occurring? Is Liz’s “change” only a result of Max “bringing her back,” what Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply – or is there something more involved! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squad’s planet (we call Twilo)? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? Could she be the “true bride” – only sent on a different ship to prevent easy discovery, with Tess serving as an unknowing dupe. But if so, and she is part alien, why did she disappear in Wipeout? She did cause the Skin’s shed skin to disintegrate, but that could have other reasons for occurring. Maybe she is purely human, but contains the “true bride’s” essence – but in a different configuration than the Hybrid pod squad?)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” and romanced a predecessor to Liz – but was called back to Twilo, leaving his true love behind.
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz? Could Tess/Ava be a ruse – as mentioned above - to protect the true queen, Liz, from being discovered before she has time to develop her powers that would protect her and her loved ones?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.) However, Liz is Max’s most trusted advisor, and the one most likely to keep him staying the course!
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies, such as the key to operating the Granolith – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her?
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Twilo? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Granolith and the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story? Ava had heard this story foretold during her previous life on Twilo?
· Could it just be Liz's extremely advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the MANY theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special all his human life – and he never connected with Ava the way one would have expected if she was his mate even though they had (we assume) spent their entire life on Earth – in the NYC sewers - together. I guess we will never know unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones (all 5 of them w/ Liz present) – anything is possible? We don’t know what happened to his body!) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her. (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?” [paraphrasing]) Liz looks directly at Max as he gets off the bus, with a sort of recognition. They obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were friends and lab partners more recently. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that we know are all human (according to Harding in WR). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking already – yet dormant – powers existing within her? Ava’s reaction to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle, and all the kids in the hospital? There seems to be more to initiating the “change” than just the healing! Though Kyle may develop his own powers someday, and so could the kids?

Origin of the Connection – Where is Liz from, really?

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins! A few of the common questions raised include:
· Are her parents her “true” birth parents or is Liz adopted like the Evans kids?
· Did Grandma Claudia have a relationship with an alien that passed something on to Liz?
· Does Liz have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race?
· Why does Liz look so much like Sheila Hubble?
· How does all this play into the connection with Max and Liz’s new found “abilities/powers”? (The first known appearing to be astral projection.)
· Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur?

We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) There seems to be many clues that point to this possibility – but nothing definite. We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the Twilo conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. These races could be of common decent, or there could be many variations. We know from White Room that the alien that was studied had a cerebral cortex similar to ours (humans), that did not have a bone structure like ours – thus, the shock that Max did. Could the similarities that the alien had be due to a common ancestor to humans – one that traveled to Earth many years ago either colonizing Earth or intermingling with the humans here. We don’t know for sure that the alien that was studied was a shapeshifter – we just assume it was, but it could have been another alien, different from the shapeshifters, that was on board the ship (or another ship that crashed.) We also know that the Skins (who are NOT Skins on Twilo – only on Earth – so how did Nasedo know what they called themselves?) share powers common to the pod squad whose powers are all human. Does this mean that the beings that are Skins are from the same race of beings that the essences of the podsters are from? Will humans be able to eventually acquire some of these powers?

Rath sarcastically comments about how hard it is to travel through space to Earth – thus the need to possess humans long-distance – but the podsters obviously got here somehow (and fairly quickly if the comments concerning the warring for 50 years is correct - I will explain this if you don’t get what I mean – just ask) – so travel to and from Earth must be possible and not unreasonable. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ Twilo predecessors from long ago? Could Liz and Max have a common ancestor – from long, long ago?

Granolith – How does it fit in?

We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Whitaker and Courtney seemed to think it was a means to their salvation – but why? It is obviously of great importance! Could the Granolith be like a Holy Grail of the V constellation? The Holy Grail was meant to be found by a man with a pure heart who will use it to feed the hungry and heal the sick, and with it will bring peace and happiness to the land. So – whose heart is the purest in Roswell? Could it be Liz? The Granolith could be like Excalibur from the King Arthur tales, to be used as an instrument of the righteous, by a good man for a good cause. So – who fits that description? Max? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? If it is only a transport system, I doubt they would have had such a concerned reaction – so there must be more to the Granolith than that. Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the prophesized protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Liz has yet to see the Granolith. Maybe it will react when she enters it. Maybe Liz holds something within her that is the key to the operation of the Granolith! Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time? Apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way before their discovery? So, many questions – still! … ! The speculation continues!

Destiny – Liz and Max!

Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his original “destiny” on Twilo when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a “human” alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Many posters have wondered “Why?” send the Hybrid pod squad (in duplicate form) to Earth if there wasn’t some benefit. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction. Maybe she had “heard” the prophecy? (I am ignoring the cut scenes that Rooney posted that explained that the Dupe’s shapeshifter had warned that anyone they brought back would be changed, not necessarily for the better, because if it is not aired, it might not be the way the writers/producers have decided to take the show.) Zan’s “searching for someone” that Ava spoke briefly about, also seems to imply that he felt someone special was out there that he was meant to connect with – maybe Liz or Serena – I guess we will never know unless he is “brought back” somehow.

Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the pod squad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are (supposedly) “human” according to Harding. (I’m not going to get into it in this Intro – but the fact that the Skin’s powers are similar to the pod squads’ powers – which are advanced human powers – which are supposed to be similar to the powers they had on Twilo seems to imply that humans must be capable of the these powers someday and have a common ancestor with the Skins and pod squanders in the distant past – Ummm …! ) Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters and her memory retrieval does not seem very complete! (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time!) Though the Dupes do seem to have memories of their past lives – at least Lonnie appears to - we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. Also, are the visions Max’s previous alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone (i.e., Tess, another shapeshifter) or somewhere (i.e., Granolith, Twilo) else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! What else is stored deep within him, and can he get to the point he will be able to freely access and prevent having it MRd out of him?

There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history “destined” to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the small amount of what we know of past podster actions. Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself I MITC - Zan was killed through treachery on Twilo, then New Zan was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max (a Zan Hybrid) survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized, and Max has commented many times: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no?? Maybe they make their own destiny with a little help from their Human Friends.

Follow Your Heart

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons. Grandma Claudia told Liz to promise to always follow her heart wherever it leads her (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again (MITC and ARCC). He has even stated that he believes in Liz, and though this is meant more in a friendly way than a romantic way, it is a sign that Max is following his heart back to her!

Symbolism – Do Not Ignore Anything!

The symbolism throughout the both seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often and everywhere (e.g., Valenti’s front door, Michael’s wallpaper). Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! Liz could be the Trojan Horse in which something of great importance is hidden. There is a prominent picture of a Ship between Max and Maria when they are discussing his love for Liz. The old Scandinavian tale of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his score "The Flying Dutchman," symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love. In desperation the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful. Senta, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears that she will be faithful to the Dutchman unto death. However, in doing so, she betrays her fiancé Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she was trying to save. The Dutchman puts out to sea, but his vessel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned. HOWEVER - the pair are now seen RISING from the now-CALMED waters, TRANSFIGURED and REDEEMED by their SACRIFICE. Salvation is no impossibly idealistic dream, but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. Yvonne “White” was the nurse that disappears in Summer of ’47.

Max lights a “white” pinecone in ARCC. The ancient Greeks and Assyrians viewed the pinecone as a symbol of masculinity because of its phallic shape, and it represented both fertility and immortality. As the emblem of Artemis, it represented feminine purity. It was also the emblem of the Roman goddess Venus. In Christianity, the pinecone forms the crown of the Tree of Life. Because of its swirling form, it is associated with dynamic generative and cosmic power. Here we see Venus is mentioned and also the Tree of Life (remember the women on the reservation told Liz that was what the symbol was on the necklace) also feminine purity seems to play an important role for Liz at this point. (Thanks Evid!) (And this is just the tip of the iceberg!!)

Then there is the Dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. We were in the "year of the dragon." Here are some Dragon “meanings”:
· In the Chinese Horoscope, the Dragon is in the FIFTH ranking order.
· The Dragon's corresponding western sign is ARIES.
· The Dragon’s ruling planet is VENUS.
Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her (unless dragons have been popping up on other characters’ windows?). But since it was the year she discovers that she had “powers,” it is reasonable to think of her as being “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon … as the Dragon. (Thank You Meloudious 1, Starbox and Bluecornmoon, Charmed Kitten for your thoughts on the Dragon!)
Then there is the Arthur C. Clarke book, “Childhood’s End” that is found in _____ (can’t remember the episode – Help?). Following is a summary written by a reader on Amazon – a coincidence? “It is ...in this book the "Overlords" are a mysterious, powerful, but ultimately tragic group of beings that have vastly potent minds, but that cannot undergo the spiritual metamorphosis that would take them into direct communion with the sort of Godhead that directs their (and human) destiny. I liked Clarke's ideas about utopia, which is more or less what the Earth becomes after a few generations under the guidance of the Overlords. He seems to have had a lot of fun playing with ideas about future art forms, for example, among other things. However, this utopian society is doomed, because of an unforeseen, quantum leap in evolution, that turns out to be an evolution of the communal spirit. Clarke has a lot to say here about what connects us to each other, as human beings. Are we all linked with some higher being at the level of spirit, in the manner that islands would be revealed to be all linked, if one were to somehow drain the world's oceans? Or is striving toward a planned, ordered, social utopia, with allowances made for developing all of every individual's gifts to the fullest possible degree, the best way to relate to each other?...” Interesting??

There are lots of other symbols and clues to pick up on! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent and clever for that!

The “Bride” – will the real one please stand up!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? OR could it be referring to Liz who was also standing right there? AND Why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day, and never acknowledged Tess as Max’s mate!) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride with Max in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. (Zan and Ava, who had spent their entire lives together, didn’t seem to be working at producing offspring.) What if Tess was sent to deceive the enemy, and the Real Bride was sent in a separate ship – and somehow the Real Bride’s essence ultimately ended up in Liz.

Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts were needed to defeat the enemy. Maybe Tess is a warrior, led to believe she was the bride, when she really wasn’t. (Bad Boy Harding!!) And why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? Since their shapeshifter seemed to teach them so much, wouldn’t they have known the importance of keeping the unit together? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection previously or at the same time? They never mention seeing a Mom’ogram.) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was the Mom’ogram pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is Twilo still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?) housing the heads of the allied forces?

The Books – Doesn’t anyone read these things?

Concerns similar those raised about the Mom’ogram have been raised about the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? Did the Dupes receive a similar book? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the pod squad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Why does Max have writing on his forehead, but no one else does?

Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there is any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!) READ THE BOOKS! READ THE FILES! ASK MORE QUESTIONS!

The Catalyst – Liz!

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are re-watched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, connecting with Max to save his life in NY and coming up with the idea that helps Max restore his balance in ARCC.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan. (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max “fall out of love with her.”)

Vision Quest – How does Liz fit in?

Liz could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we now know is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment. (Who knows who and what to believe on this one??) Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” or complement Max, and bring him into “balance”? Max seems to believe that Liz is his voice of reason, and knows him better than anyone else – even Iz! (We learn this from the JK and JB commentary on ARCC.) Could Liz possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence (combined with her connection with Max) mean that she has the potential to obtain more of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection, at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing, and how the visions play into the powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “projected” visions from Tess to get Iz’s attention for help). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps!) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions from Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just “now” being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifters, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? The vision seems similar to that Liz gets in SH when she “sees” the orb being buried. Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Could his blurred vision be the result of testing he was subjected to, and the tic tacs pills that he takes to maintain his “balance”?

Time Travel – “Run, Lola, Run”

Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has it come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run” – which was mentioned in Surprise as the story of Liz’s life? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully due to the premature cementing, and the third being the path we are on now!) Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos? OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has from FM concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY, and that warning prevented him from turning it over to the other aliens - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max in particular!) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug Max – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed! Does he really “know” as Kyle seems to think Max always does?

Hero Journey – Liz’s Path

I want to add something about Liz’s hero journey here, but I’m still working on it. So it will have to wait – but trust me – Liz’s appears to be taking that journey!

Grandma Claudia – the first connection?

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her new and married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Perhaps GC helped them when she was younger, and they entrusted valuable information with her just as with River Dog. Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Norma Bates & Tasyfa contributed these thoughts! Soulmates are usually described as people being very alike in feelings and motivation. They work very well together for common goals. They have a connection of purpose and a similarity in thinking. Their skills complement each others so that together they accomplish more and are stronger/better than if they worked individually toward the same goal. But soulmates aren’t necessarily a permanent connection and they could be with several people. However, Lifebonds take "soulmate" one step further. Lifebonds are usually found in telepathic sci-fi (Kathy Tyers' "Firebird" for example) and fantasy genres. Before they can be lifebonded, they must be soulmates first. They are linked together mentally, emotionally and constantly. Lifebonds in fiction are rare and not taken lightly. They are a permanent one on one connection…till death do they part. The creation of a lifebond is a matter of choice. It doesn’t just happen. Authors sometimes use the theory that if a pair decides to lifebond, they spend some time apart first, to strengthen and stretch the bond (to change the bond) and to contemplate on their choice. Both must agree and be fully committed to each other. There is no divorce option except death. Once that is done, the 2 open their connections to each other, mind and soul, to the fullest extent and then “cement” their relationship, making the bond permanent.

The drawbacks to life bonding includes:
· If they are separated from each other, they feel incomplete, not whole.
· Long term separation can lead to mental instability or insanity because one balances the other’s strengths and weaknesses emotionally and physically.
· If one of a bonded pair dies, it can cause a deep depression to the point of suicide. The remaining survivor has trouble adapting and balancing themselves.

Some things that lifebonds aren’t:
· They are not mind reading skills. They send strong impressions or emotions. Right now, if Max and Liz were lifebonded, he would know she was lying but not why unless she told him.
· They are still separate people capable of misunderstandings.
· Lifebonds cause a lot of stress and misunderstanding because they are so close emotionally, they forget to communicate verbally.
· Having secrets between a lifebonded pair causes a lot of frustration and pain between them.

Could what FM is talking about in TEOTW be a hint that, not knowing what they were doing, Liz and Max became life bonded too soon? Liz wasn’t going to change or be able to lifebond to Max without first making a decision that she wanted to go ahead with the relationship. From Destiny until TEOTW she kept herself apart and tried to withdraw, but after seeing Madame Vivian she changed her mind and decided to take a chance…to start changing. Perhaps FM found out that Liz would develop her own powers if they hadn't become lifebonded and solidified the links so early. FM coming back and keeping her separated allowed the connections to grow stronger. Liz needed time to stretch the links, to change both physically and mentally, and taking Isabel's hand in MITC was only the first step of finding out whom she really is and what she can do.

Sheila Hubble – Eerie resemblance to Liz! – What’s the connection?

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the pod squad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with while in Florida?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. So, there is a connection to Liz. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Do you think the writers will introduce a character from Florida named Chad? Ummmmm?

Venus – Liz’s connection to the stars!

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Numbers – It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! TEOTW occurs in 2014! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates? Next time you watch ARCC, notice the house addresses for Brody and the Ghost’s family, and it’s the 23rd Annual celebration. They all add up to 5!

Cave Map Symbols – All signs lead to Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Skins – What lies below the surface?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the pod squad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seemed to be confined to their husks, but they could be from the same race as the pod squad’s alien predecessors. Many of us think that the pod squad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without being noticed? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? How did the Skins – Nicko - find the Dupes? And could some of these earlier alien visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race or groups of aliens on Earth ? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Shapeshifters – Are there more than one?

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same. Maybe Tic Tac was the Dupes’ shapeshifter who came back to Roswell.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Recently with the discovery of Liz’s change, many have wondered why Harding didn’t know about the change and mention it. Especially after reading the cut scenes from MITC. If Ava knew, Harding should have known and mentioned it. Of course, there are the long lingering questions like: Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions, and his apparent failure to divulge information about Liz and the podsters’ origins. Was his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee”? And what did he do for all those years before Tess hatched? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Again, why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? Why did Harding have such a large collection of antiques, which he was so sensitive about? Had he been around when they were original manufactured – years ago? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Odds and Ends

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection. And who could miss Max grabbing Liz’s hand at mid-night mass and telling Liz, “I believe in you!” in ARCC!

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Dates

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across – PM me if you have one. I have added dates from the Crashdown Timeline and the Whitaker Diaries, but they are questionable, and have no basis in episodes aired, so take them with a grain of salt.

1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
5/7/1983 – Tess’s birthday (Tess, Lies and Videotapes)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1990 – Maria’s Dad leaves (Sexual Healing)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
11/11/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex wind up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max & Liz share their first kiss (Heatwave)
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/5/2000 – Rare alignment of Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Earth’s Moon and the Sun (4everyoung)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed Harding, the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday (Surprise)
12/23/2000 – Max heals kids in Hospital (ARCC)
12/24/2000 – Max attends Midnight Services, expressing his Belief in Liz (ARCC)
2014 – Minutes before the destruction of Earth, Future Liz Convinces Future Max to go back in time and convince Liz to deceive Max into “falling out of love with her” – thus, changing the future (TEOTW)

In Summary

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome.

OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Metaphysicalgrl asked:
quote:
OK, I don't want this to get lost on the new thread...but I have to say the more I look at these two images together, the more I am convinced that the symbol on the left IS the Granolith!
Come on now...anybody? Am I on crack or does anybody else see this too?

I think at least 4 of us agree so far, Bluecornmoon, you, Starbox and me. So unless we are all on something hallucinogenic, we may be on to something. Actually, this has been bugging me since the beginning of this thread when I noticed it for the first time after myriad viewings of M2TM. As difficult as it has been since MITC, except for ARCC, to have no new Roswell eps, it has provided an opportunity to uncover new things that hadn't been noticed before. Surely has helped carry me through this dry period.

When Ask Not reruns on Monday, notice the wall behind Max when he is talking to Maria about how to be a leader and how he is to know how to make good decisions. You will see a sign saying "Harvest"! Loved that!

Here is the Image Gallery that goes with the introduction.

Liz and max with the "V" pattern holding hands:

Liz as Venus:

Liz and Max as twin souls - notice how they come together to form the
"swirl" on the orb activated during Sexual Healing. Also - notice the
"Emergency" sign behind them - when they come to gether it reads "MERGE". The animation is from the alternate ending to Leaving Normal and is complimets of RedHawk (THANKS!!)

Liz as the keeper of/key to the granolith:
Picture of the granolith chamber in the crashdown:

Sheila Hubble:

Liz as the Virgin Mary/key to Salvation:

The dragon on Liz's window:

Liz as the Trojan Horse (she was avoiding Maria in the Pilot and ate lunch with Mary TROY). Horses have shown up alot in pictures, etc but here is the horse that ran in front of Max's jeep in Blood Brothers:

Liz as the Tree of Life and EAGLE imagery - see the tree mural on the wall - and also the EAGLE figure on the table.

The "destiny" book with the name "LIZ" backwards next to what looks like the granolith sideways:

Liz and the Childhoods End book:

Images thanks to crashdown, shapeshifter, redhawk and
www.theddd.com
THANKS!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I am going to start little by little and add stuff as we go.... The first thing I would like to point out, a lot of the flashes and visions are different or were described differently than how I interpreted them. SH is a heavy Liz show afterall, so I'm posting the visions here....

Vision 1-Girls Locker Room
quote:LIZ, changing for gym class. The other girls have left; she's alone. MAX walks in. He looks at her; she sees him. Very erotic. With a gesture of his other hand, he changes the harsh fluorescent lighting to romantic mood lighting. MARIA enters the scene, in her waitress uniform. They all see one another.

My comment on this flash is Maria's presense. Certainly when the final cut was made, this flash had changed, but I find it weird that Maria would be a part of her vision on that they would all see one another. Of course, this is suppose to be Liz's fantasy, but latter, I found this in the script, along with a cut line....

[quote]
LIZ:
"No. I always knock the strawberries oever this time of night. Especially on Thursdays. Right Jose? (the cook)"

***Liz is flustered. As if Max "caught" her in her fantasy. Everything she babble makes it worse.****

And there was this comment made in the script after the back kitchen flash....

***The flash is a most intense sexual feeling, like having an orgasm for the first time. Surprising, alarming even, and forever after, necessary.*****

That puts a whole different light on the flashes doesn't it. Does Liz get flashes because she's changed? Or does Liz get flashes because they are part of mating??? And it would seem to suggest a physical need for Liz to be with Max... EOTW, "There will never be another you."

I have to accept the fact Liz is changed. An orgasm is a biological reaction, and thus the flashes are triggered because Liz is sexually aroused. Flashes would seem to be part of the alien mating ritual.

Eraser Room
Max's flash is different than the one we know! Nemo if you are lurking, you may want to add this to the teeth gnawing-chewing ideas you have.

FLASH:
Liz, six years old, playing with Barbie and Ken dolls. Ken strokes Barbie's hair, Barbie's body. Liz mashes their faces together in a kiss. Liz brings the Ken doll to her own lips to kiss. Her lips dwarf Ken's head; she opens her mouth and puts most of him inside.

Max shudders.

Liz: What
Max: Nothing. (he smiles) Liz Parker. You're incredible.

One more flash for tonight okay. This one settles the year the ORB came to Earth. There are many theories as you know.

Locker Room Flash
FLASH:
Series of impressionistic images. We catch glimpses of U.S. soldier circa 1947 heading toward us. We move through the brush fast, as if running away from soldiers. We hear a distinctive sound, a STACCATO BEEP. Before she can see more details, the flash ends.

It is safe to assume that the orb was hiddened by someone after the crash in 1947. Question? How does this flash of Liz's relate to Sof47. Do you think Hal Carver or any of his associates, Richard Doty or the two privates killed were scene by Liz. And if so, will Liz be able to figure it out?

If a PTB is lurking and you would prefer I not post this stuff, just PM to let me know, or contact a moderator and they can let me know..... I will remove it.

Zero, thank you for the eloquent introduction! Starbox, thank you for the pictures!

Please forgive the length of my post. I've been thinking again, which is always dangerous...

Megageekgirl, you wrote that you think perhaps Tess is an imposter who does not actually belong with the podsters and that the book was faked to include her.

I agree. It's VERY significant that the book came from Tess in the first place. Though it has a great deal of interesting symbolism it may not necesssarily have a great deal of TRUTH about it. She pulled it out of the wall in the library - who's to say she (or Harding) didn't alter it for their personal/team gain? I say again (rather loudly) WHERE IS THAT BOOK NOW, ANYWAY?!

By the way, it disturbs me that Tess is the one who initially led Max to the Pod Chamber. What episode was that, Four Square? If you watch it again, notice that Tess takes him out into the desert at night and all of a sudden it's daytime and she leads him to the pod chamber. It's very much like Brody's description of abduction and the lapse of time in Meet the Dupes. Most Suspicious.

I believe:

1) Tess is not one of the royal four, though she may not know it; I like the theory that she is a one of a protector species but thinks she's the bride because of Harding's influence

2) The main mission of the podsters is to develop their humanness in order to survive and that their survival and the perpetuation of their species (or what's left of it) can only take place on Earth, because

3)Twilo no longer physically exists. (See explosion of red star in Sexual Healing and Ask Not.)

4)Liz is an evolved human as a result of the healing (Qfanny, ) though I wonder if even as a human...

5)she may be the fourth podster. The last time I watched the momogram it seemed unclear the bride really was. On second viewing, I seemed like mom was talking about Liz, not Tess. Who's to say the 4th couldn't have been human, anyway?

What if Tess knew that if she got the four of them in the pod chamber (Max, Is, Michael and Liz) that the Mommogram would be activated by their collective essence! What if she got a free ride because it looked like mom was talking about her when in fact it was LIZ all along... Still I couch this by saying that Tess's manipulations could be a result of Harding's influence on her.

Also, I'm not particularly concerned with the Nikolas and Khivar issues, because their power is rooted in the existence of a great political war on Twilo. Since I think there's no kingdom left to go home to, their power is greatly diminished although their evil intent can be dangerous. They think they're fighting for Twilo; they're really fighting for what remains of their own lives.

Finally, I think the freckles were airbrushed ON the photo in that calendar to get us talking! Liz may have a V constellation on her chest (cool if so) but I doubt Ms. Appleby does.

FLASH:
Liz, six years old, playing with Barbie and Ken dolls. Ken strokes Barbie's hair, Barbie's body. Liz mashes their faces together in a kiss. Liz brings the Ken doll to her own lips to kiss. Her lips dwarf Ken's head; she opens her mouth and puts most of him inside.

Max shudders.

Liz: What
Max: Nothing. (he smiles) Liz Parker. You're incredible.

Can I just say how happy I am that this scene was never filmed/was edited out? It just sounds a little wierd.

Zero, I think the reason your bold is not working is because you put the slash after the second b and not before it. I think it is [/b] and NOT [b/]. Now let's see if I can do it correctly (I've never tried bolding before).

Reguru--Remember I told you I thought I saw this W U somewhere else----well if you have a copy of 285S when Isabel grabs Max to leave the crashdown and Liz follows because they realize Michael found a car---when they go outside the crashdown there is a banner which reads PLANET WUU? Huh funny huh? I don't know if it means anything or not just reporting what I observed because I remembered I had seen that W b4 LOL.

QFanny--thanks for posting that stuff on sexual healing eppy--why would they object to it---it is a past episode? Anyways QFANNY I have always believed that the clock being set for VENUS to 2:20 in UFO CONV eppy was important--and remember Max says that Tess told him that the allignment had woken up their biological drives? Well this is what I am certain had happened to Liz and Max. The next cycle would be 245 days from Feb20 which would be OCTOBER 25th---do you know why that date is significant from EOTW eppy---FutureMax told Liz that they had made love instead of going to the concert remember? And of course they had to change that--I think we had figured out 245 days from then would be sometime in JUNE? I guess we shall see.

BTW, if anybody else didn't know how to bold, what you (apparently) do is type [b ] at the beginning of what you want to bold. Then you type [/ b] at the end of what you want to bold, except leave out the spaces.

See, it is true. You do learn something new every day!

GraceKel: I am pretty certain that this copy of the script is not the final-final version because of all the interior-exterior changes in it. It's pretty close to what I've read before for cut lines, but slightly different. The copy I got also contained the VFX Notes for special effects on 4 different dates no less... It could be the final version, but I doubt it. As there are a few minor rewrites in it and set changes. I would count the rewrite as the final version myself. Perhaps that is not what is done.

There are also notes on the construction of flash segments and what tapes to use. Being a former analog editor, I understand this sheet pretty well. It looks like someone jotting down ideas for the flashes, and possible source footage.

Anyway, I just want to play it safe... The producers are in charge of the storyline of Roswell and there could be things here that they do not want anymore.... I just want to let them know that if they don't like seeing what I got, I will gladly remove it.

I think all we are trying to do is answer some of the bigger questions we have about the total Roswell canon...

In case we have a drough of episodes, like now, if we ever need new (new?) topics, all we have to do is pick one from this page and rehash!

StarBox: ... and you had time to post the pictures?

FLASH:
Liz, six years old, playing with Barbie and Ken dolls. Ken strokes Barbie's hair, Barbie's body. Liz mashes their faces together in a kiss. Liz brings the Ken doll to her own lips to kiss. Her lips dwarf Ken's head; she opens her mouth and puts most of him inside.

Max shudders.

Liz: What
Max: Nothing. (he smiles) Liz Parker. You're incredible.

OK, I really didn't need that visual in my head!! Does anyone feel this scene is vaguely reminiscent of this scene in SH ....

MARIA: Are you crazy? This is dangerous. This isn't like a game! We don't even know what could happen!

LIZ: Look who's talking! You were the first one to take the plunge, Maria!

MARIA: Michael and I just kissed. Ok, fine. We did a little more than kissing. But, look, I wasn't getting visions, and I didn't have glowing hickeys and rashes and...look, Liz, the bottom line is that we don't know what this is about, all right? Female spiders can, you know, bite off the males' heads after they mate. What if they need someone to mate with to get certain information, you know? And then...Blttt! You know?

LIZ: What're you been trying to say? That Max is just gonna bite my head off?

Thank god for the revisions!!! And I hope in that cut scene Max is shuddering from revulsion and not something else...

Have a pleasant evening!!!

BlueCornMoon - well - I had the pictures saved on a file so it didnt take much time to post them <vbg>

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I don't think Liz is going to bite Max's head off, but sometimes I wonder with the healing and the reverse connection if Liz isn't somehow absorbing some of Max's essence. I also wonder when they talk of "cementing" their relationship if it means that it would make this process complete or irrerverible.

reguru, about the difference of the rendering of Tess in the Book pic: It could just be that a different WB artist did it after they selected Emilie for the role--maybe the original WB artist was just told to leave a space there because Tess hadn't been cast yet. Or, maybe the original intent was exactly as you say, but they later decided to make her more of a friend than a foe (like they did with Valenti). I wonder if the writers have a hard time keeping the bad guys "bad" because the actors get along so well. I wonder if they dropped Nasedo because they couldn't quite decide if he was good or bad.

Lately I've been thinking that the leaking pod would obviously be Tess, because that could explain her late hatching. I am wondering if the stuff that leaked somehow got to Liz. Recall Parker's bar in Summer of '47. Maybe Liz's paternal grandfather absorbed the alien essence but it stayed dormant until it was passed on to Liz and she was born. Maybe that's also why it took so long for Max and everyone to hatch--they were (as FM said) a complete unit and couldn't hatch separately--this could be true of the essence/goo stuff too, so the leaked essence couldn't awaken without a female to hold it, and that couldn't happen until Liz was born (granddaughter to Pete Parker--um, no relation to Spider Man), and M,M, & I couldn't hatch til Liz was born.

Then, this orb symbol can also be seen, I think, in a picture just over Max's shoulder when he and liz are in the office and the principle comes out to talk to them.

What i got from that episode was that the orb was specifically calling to LIZ. she describes it as a PERSON or thing buried that she needs to find. It really seems like the orb is connected to her and the granolith and something triggered it.

also, in Crazy there is an interesting scene where Alex is walking down the alley and some FBI agents try to get him in his car then valenti comes up and scares them away. what i thought was interesting was the bright white cross behind Alex. Is that supposed to symbolize him as a "savior" type, or valenti? what do you think?

i'm a new'bee on this forum, and on fanforum in general.

i...have to admit...sorry to say...i missed the entire first season (although i was initiated to Roswell after watching 5 eppies in a night)...and i really want to see everything, from the pilot to the finale.

does anyone have these on VHS video?

really really really really want to know about Season 1....

can find trailers but nothing else...

anyone got any idears?

please let me know. thx

Something that has nagged at me for awhile now is the six-pointed star in Liz's bedroom. You can see it in the White Room scene where Isabel and Alex are talking right before she dreamwalks Max:

First, I just figured that it was a Star of David and kind of wrote it off , but today I watched the ep again and curiosity drove me to look it up. It turns out the the symbol in WR, in addition to its link to Judaism, has many other meanings. In the Middle Ages, for example, alchemists used it to symbolize the "quintessence". This meant nothing to me until I read that "quintessence" is another word for "fifth element".

Alchemists also believed that the symbol of two overlapping lines with four arms of equal length had special meaning:

or

And we do see variations of this symbol in Roswell:

and

(It's hard to see it here, but look at the spaces between the squares)

Anyway, alchemists believed while each arm stood for an element (earth, water, fire, air), the point at which the lines of they intersected represented the fifth element. From their point of view, the fifth element was basically the intangible thing that makes up a human soul. This made me think of something from Destiny: "Knowing you has made me human."

I think that it's also worth mentioning here that in certain branches of science the diagonal cross symbolizes crossbreeding (hybridization) between to species or races. It is sometimes associated with Christ, and in ancient Chinese, it stood for the number 5.

Like I said, there are many other ways to interpret all of these symbols and heck, maybe it is simply a Star of David. Like so many other things, though, this all seems a bit too neat to be a coincidence. Thoughts?

i think that the orbs are part of liz, since we view liz as the 5th element. it could be calling her out b/c the constellations were aligned? maybe. maybe the orbs were hidden by the 2 glowing protectors. maybe immediately after the crash, the glowing protectors were unconscious when the military got there and the first thing they saw was the glowing pods. so those were taken first. upon regaining consciousness, the protectors hid the granolith and then attempted to get the pods from the base to the hiding place. the military, not wanting anymore exposure on the crash, buried what they thought was garbage, thus the orbs.

just a thought.

Thanks Nemo! I'm sure there are more. I have a feeling that there are more six-pointed stars as well, though I can't for the life of me remember where. I guess I'm just going to have to watch all of the eps again. *Sigh*...an RBI's work is just never done

Zero
I Shall Believe!

- Good observation regarding the shading of the podsters faces in the book (except tess) maybe a clue that she changed it.

- Did anyone make anything of Liz's mom saying that she possibly had a high temperature when she came in from seeing Max SH.

- Qfanny great post on the flashes of SH script. I just read it and didn't read anything into it. I guess that I havn't practiced my ability to "study" eps and scripts yet.

Just my quick thoughts before bed.

Great images/research on the cross-star images. Everything relates back to the fifth element. Those also relate to diamnods because the symbolism of a diamond is tied to the "invisible" cross in the moddle of the shape that connects the four points with the fifth element of the center. And according to Aztec/Mayan culture - guess what resides in the center??? The SUN GOD (Max) or the TREE OF LIFE (Liz).

Also - my latest Season One comment. Liz tells Topolsky she wants to be a scientist and Topolsky asks her why (or how long she has wanted that) and Liz says "The fist time I walked into a chemistry lab and smelled that smell - the SULFHUR - I felt like I was HOME". Sulfhur is not a pleasant smell and there is that word HOME. Just seemed a little strange to me. Could the smell of sulphur be a part of Liz's alien essence/past?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Welll, here are some facts about Venus (alot of this has been posted before, I think):

Venus is hot and dry. It's atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas. Its upper atmosphere contains sulphuric acid. Temperatures of 870 degrees Fahrenheit have been measured on its surface.

Venus rotates very slowly (once every 243 earth days) in the direction opposite to most of the other planets (and opposite to the
motion of all of the planets around the sun. Its solar day is 116 days long. Venus goes around the sun once every 225 days.

Radar images have shown craters, lowlands, and mountains (including volcanos). A particularly huge mountain has been named Maxwell.

BTW, Zero, Awesome job.

Rats! It's post-season! I guess that means we'll have to resort to fan fiction to get our SH fix on the proper date!

Or perhaps TPTB will grace us with a two-parter to bridge the summer scheduling gap so our imaginations can run wild for several months... (not that they don't already, with ponderings of planetary alignments, ancient symbols, pyramids, math, myth...)

On a slightly different but related note, I do have difficulty defining the boundaries of the story. To explain: scrutiny of clues and the general story line invite research in literature, science, history, etc. These all help us understand what's implicit to the story. Though I've not read the Roswell High books, they may shed meaning as well, although I think JK et al have probably used the books as a springboard for a new thing altogether. With regard to the draft versions of scripts I read comments about them with a degree of caution. I mean, what may we see as the story? What we actually see or that plus what is cut? I find some of the outtakes enlightening, others contradictory. Sometimes I think storyline directions are made in the cuts. I guess as Liz would say, it's complicated...

Please note: I appreciate the draft script and cut scene information shared on this thread and hope you'll all continue to include them! They just make my little brain hurt a bit...

i think that the orbs are part of liz, since we view liz as the 5th element. it could be calling her out b/c the constellations were aligned? maybe

In the beginning of SH, we hear Liz talking about how she feels like she is changing. Like it's almost chemical. Flash to the classroom where the teacher is talking about the creation of life and the chemical reaction that ocurred right after the big bang between hydrogen, liquid oxygen and carbon.

Could it be that a chemical reaction was set forth in Liz by the allignment of the stars and Max's healing -- creating an awakening, which was chemically and/or energy based? This chemical reaction or change of Liz's energy could have 'awakened' the Orbs. We have always wondered why the podsters weren't given more information. I think that the Orbs are what the Queen sent down with them to give them the information they need. There is actual information inside the Orbs which needs to be released by the podsters. Why they haven't tried to use them in this way again after the Mommogram is beyond me.

Maybe it was part of the prophecy on Twilo as well... The king would bring back to life the fifth element who, when the time was right, would lead the King to find the answers he needed to return home and free the people. Or maybe you can even say Liz was the bride and it was planned this way. When they were ready (the right age to handle it) the allignment of the stars would signal an awakening in them, which would lead them to the Orbs and the answers they needed to begin their heroes journey. I like this theory! This would also make sense then, that the shooters could have been from one of the home planets -- either trying to put what was supposed to happen (Liz needing to be changed) into motion -- or preventing it (we have to get rid of her). The two guys could have been working for the same 'temp agency' as Brody! They were being 'inhabited by aliens!

Anyway, sorry if this has been discussed before...

{~}:}

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox

I do remember thinking that it was rather weird that Liz loved the smell of the chemistry lab, but then again, I love the smell of books. But that comment made my ears picked up. I'll need to think more about it.

StarBox: It's wonderful to see things from a new perspective. All the bits you are telling us about Season I, I had forgotten already! Would you tell us what ep are you watching because I'll be curious to see what you make out of ... the egg behind Little Liz in SH? and some other things that are still a puzzle!

Shapeshifter: Your Liz's Mythology site is incredible. Don't know how you do it!

Zara: Katims said in a recent interview that he had read the first book of the Roswell High series and that's it! Can't vouch for the other writers though!

Ever since we got information on the temporary agency, I've been thinking about Liz's shooters. The scope of suspects broadened considerably then. It could be anybody in the 5 (4?) other planets. Of course, I still like QFanny's original version the best: Max and Michael trying to push destiny! Will come back with that one!

checz please: Love your info on the star stuff, especially the pics. It is so much easier to understand. Thank You.

kean_jim: Welcome Re: Season 1 tapes I think you might find some info at Roswell 2 forum. I thought I read somewhere that you could get access to the tapes there but i am not 100% sure.

Metaphysicalgirl: count me in. It could be the M upside down representing the Mountain where the granolith is hidden. The symbols are on his forehead for a reason, I wish someone would clarify things as the season goes on. How many lingering questions can they have before even TPTB loses track?

As for Tess not having the shadow on her face? Well that is very suspicious but this can be a good thing that her picture is different. This will leave the door open when TPTB decides what to do with her.

As for the Picture with Liz's name spelt backwards Maybe Twilonians read their pictures vertically. This would put Liz with Max and Michael with Tess. Could Tess be Vilandra, Max's sister, Michaels lover? Or like mentioned before, Nasaedo could of manipulated the picture and put Tess later on. The Bride could be Liz and Tess is just the handmaiden.

Metaphysicalgirl: count me in. It could be the M upside down representing the Mountain where the granolith is hidden. The symbols are on his forehead for a reason, I wish someone would clarify things as the season goes on. How many lingering questions can they have before even TPTB loses track?

[/B]

The thing I was trying to get across to you guys was not that I thought the M was upside down -- indicating the mountain..but that the symbol on Max's forehead actually LOOKED like it could be the Granolith...

THE SYMBOL OF THE GRANOLITH CHAMBER

The Symbols On Max's Head

The Granolith

What I was trying to point out was that the symbol on Max's head kind of looks like this pic of the Granolith. The sides of the "W" are kind of like the walls of the chamber, and the little triangle on the bottom of the "W" looks like the bottom of the Granolith. Anyway, that's what I meant. One way or the other, I believe that the symbol represents the Granolith, and I'm glad to know I'm not alone!

{~}:}

THANK YOU NEMO AND TRISTAN FOR HELPING ME TO GET THESE PICTURES RIGHT!!!

really interesting site, but I can't think of how rods would relate to our story...

Bluecornmoon - I have actually been going in order with Season One because my husband never saw any of the episodes and I want to see him to see them in order. So I am on Leaving Normal - will probably watch through 285 South tonight. I do think I will *have* to to sneak in a viewing of Sexual Healing - I REALLY want to see about the egg!!! Especially after QFanny's cut scenes - I am working on a theory about the childhood flashes.

Shapeshifter - would Maxcedo like an AOL account?? I have some blank screennames and could make one - thus giving access to more webspace and picture hosting.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Yuppie!! Finally got my second I still feel like a fan in training but I am sure glad to be considered a Fan

How can you see it if I can't get the pictures to work?!? Please help me post those pics so others can see what I'm talking about!!

Don't apologize for the mix-up...absolutely no need! It was kind of hard for me to express what I was trying to say about the symbols and the granolith....

I was hoping the pics would help...but grrrrr...I can't figure it out!

Smiles,
{~}:}

I've been on vacation (in Aruba) for two weeks and have TONS to catch up on, but.. looking forward to tonight's new eppy and all the great insights that will come from it!

See you in the Future!

I havn't posted for a while, as I am having a go at a new project, something I have never tried before.
(Bluecornmoon, this is tougher than I thought. )

Anyway, as part of the research I am doing for it, I found a site with a whole stack of information that might prove relevant to Liz's importance. I suggest you check it out yourselves, rather than me dump the info in here.

www.atlan.org

Some iteresting stuff, especially about the New World, and there is even some stuff about Horse Sacrifices.

Some of it is speculation, but isn't that what we are about?

WR

The VW company being founded in Germany, I guess in the US we could interpret the Jetta as an alien vehicle.

Also, I'm not particularly concerned with the Nikolas and Khivar issues, because their power is in the existance of a great political war on Twilo. Since I think there's no kingdom left to go home to, their power is greatly diminished although their evil intent can be dangerous. They think they're fighting for Twilo; they're really fighting for what remains of their own lives.

Finally, I think the freckles were airbrushed ON for that calendar to get us talking! Liz may have a V constellation on her chest (cool) but I doubt Ms. Appleby does.

THE SYMBOL OF THE GRANOLITH

THE SYMBOL ON MAX'S FOREHEAD

metaphysicalgirl I hope these are the pics.

The VW company being founded in Germany, I guess in the US we could interpret the Jetta as an alien vehicle.
That's very perceptive, Zero.
It's a pity she doesn't drive a Beetle: a model of car that's truly been "brought back". Of course, that bumper Michael was working on was curved, like a Beetle bumper. Isn't a Jetta bumper straight?
This will require further study... -)

THE SYMBOL OF THE GRANOLITH

Tristan....you're a saint! Thanks! Now, why couldn't I get that to work?

WR

Hey Tristan! Thank you so much for your help. I finally got all the pics to work. Go back and look at my original post!

Your help is greatly appreciated!!

Big smiles...

Zero In all the times I've posted here, I never told you how great the summary is... well, Great Job! really though, I stopped to read pretty much all of it, which I hadn't done since thread 19.

Just a random little thing I thought I'd share with you guys, don't know it's relevant at all, but here I go: I was watching a rerun of Unsolved Mysteries a couple of days ago and they were showing a story on Roswell!!! The real incident and what witnesses said they saw and what some retired military people said etc... and one thing jumped out at me. A writer or reporter or something said that one of the four alien bodies was taken to Florida! "The place where Liz spent her summer!" I thought Obviously this is completely irrelevant uless somehow Liz got the chance to examine the body somehow but I thought I'd share it with you guys, I just thought it was a funny coincidence between the show and the real incident

On to something useful. Provence from the dreamer thread made caps from the second season promos/credits and I noticed something in the background of one with Max And Liz in the front. If you look in the background you can see what looks like a painting on its side with some sort of animal, maybe a horse, I couldn't make it out. Hope someone has better luck!

I hope it comes out. Wait! This might be a more clear pic.

I thought that since the painting of the ship turned out important if this is a painting then maybe it'd give us some more clues.

I sure hope they come out.
Roxy

First-- I believe that liz is what the royal 4 would call "the queen"
Everyone thinks that Tess is supposed to be the queen but really the Momogram only said that tess was max's young BRIDE - not wife not queen! My guess is that tess died or max had a change of heart before they were actually married...After all, in Max in the City, Ava says that she always felt that Zan was waiting for someone else. The other thing is that the V formation has 5 stars. Although it represents the planets...isn't it also possible that it could represent the ROYAL 5?? Liz being the 5th... I think in the past life Max met a half human half alien girl and fell in love...they got married and she became queen. Therefore, because she wasn't completely alien -- she was not completely accepted...that may be why there is no mention of her -- maybe it is because certain people don't WANT to remember her...they are hiding things. And maybe all of the stuff Max and lIz are going through now (her feeling as though she doesn't belong) is really a parallelism to the past life when she was not accepted as queen. The 4 all seem to have titles "The King" "2nd in command" "the sister" "the young bride" -- wouldn't it make sense that liz could be the "queen"?? After all, the new found powers prove that there is something more to all this.. My only complaint - I think they doen played Liz being half alien now -- this infor should have conjuered up thoughts of -- is kyle half alien - what else can liz do?? will these questions be answered in another epi??

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Just fixing your pic!

It is possible the aliens snatched Evlyn and used her to give birth to the broken pod. Or to carry the essence that would eventually be Liz? What does everyone else think?

Been out for a few days, so I had to read up.

Zero Fantastic intro as ususal.

Some great new insights by all (newbies included).

On the VW symbol on the Jetta. If you look at the symbol, V over the W - doesn't it look like the granolith?

It was you.................Max

I'd scan the pic but I don't have a scanner I bought my calendar at http://www.roswellstore.com.

participate in the beautiful American process..

Hmmmmm....interesting. How about Yvonne White who was the nurse in attendance at the autopsy? Could she have had a hand in all this?

Discuss...

As a silly side note, did anyone notice that the AMA award statues also looked like an upside down granolith?? They are everywhere!!! Maybe I should write on the conspiracy theory thread!

Believe me, I put in my time on the site too.

Anyway, Tristan, I like the granolith symbol-- and whoever said that they read all 25 threads, I want to know just how long it took you. LOL!

I wish I put the granolith symbol in my quilt block.

Anyway, here's another stuff from the script:

quote:
Liz: We are friends.

Max: Good.

Liz: Why wouldn't we be?

Max: Well, we still haven't talked...

Liz: (Cuts him off) Max. People do really dumb things when they're drunk. One time, I got really drunk with Maria...

Max: You did?

Liz: She spilled water on her shirt and I tried to put her in the clothes dryer.

Max: Oooww.

Liz: Luckily, she didn't fit. I couldn't get the door closed. So -- there you go. I understand.

Max: And -- we're friends?

**Well, yeah, except for all the sexual tension.***

(.... skipping to other cut part....)

FLASH:The flash is a most intense sexual feeling, like having an orgasm for the first time. Surprising, alarming even, and forever after, necessary.

Liz: Max. Max.

Max: I know.

**Maria steps out the back door.**

Maria: Hey, your order's getting...

**She sees Liz, held by Max. A wild, ecstatic look on her face.**

Liz: What?

**Maria, stunned; she's never seen her friend like this.**

Maria: Cold.

**Liz moves away from Max. She looks herself again.***

Looks herself again???? What does that suggest to the rest of the RBI? Would sexual activity seem to bring about the "change" in Liz faster? The last line seems pretty odd. (But not as odd as Max's original vision.)

I think that all the symbols on the alien beeper appear somewhere on the cave painting/desert map and/or the "Tesstiny" book. I'm sure someone posted on this way back in the day, but I don't remember the details. If someone wanted to revisit it, that would be great.

Anyway, off to re-watch Ask Not and search for crosses, X's and six-pointed stars. I know...obsession is such an ugly thing.

Interesting I thought just how the Ask Not question was answered. I got the impression that Liz is the most powerful of all the podster/humans because she can motivate Max to do what is right. When Max says, "I'm coming for you." He meant it. Liz had to get Max to do something different so THE END would not arrive.

Also, has anyone reread Whitaker's journal lately? It seems clear that Whitaker knew about Liz's involvement with the group and how the aliens were. But the dates do not fit once again. Remember, school just started, and I think Whitaker arrived in Roswell in late Sept. School starts in late August where I am at.

Just more annoying thoughts from me.

More thoughts from my Season One marathon :-)

Leaving Normal - Liz says GC "is the whole reason for my existance". Could she mean that LITERALLY and jsut not know it??? Also - I am blown away by all the HORSES in these early episodes. Liz has a horse and a shell next to each other on her desk.
Also - when she and Kyle went to rent movies - Liz rented WINGS OF DESIRE. (Kyle says that after a few minutes of "wings of boringness" they will want to watch his slasher movie) - I am sure he is making fun of Wings of Desire - which is a foreign film about an ANGEL that falls in love with a HUMAN and gives up eternity so that he can become human and be with her.

Oh - and Max has a "U" (a horseshoe I think) above his bedroom door.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

A really far out idea -- perhaps GC is Liz's mother? She would have been 50 when Liz was born. Not too old, although high risk. She could have arranged to have her son adopt it.

Qfanny--OK, now you've got me thinking. Remember what Mrs. Parker says to Liz after eraser room incident in SH: "Once you enter that world...you know, sexual intimacy...everything changes." To me, this strongly foreshadowed EOTW. Looking at your post, now I wonder if she might be another one who knows more than she's telling. It's also curious that Mrs. Parker was the one to suggest that Max and Liz not see each other at the end of the ep. Is it possible that she was trying to stop what was coming (either full activation of Liz's "changes" or the original version of the future)? Maybe this was just a normal parental reaction, but then again we are talking about Roswell...

Reggie et al, re Liz/Shiri's freckles: In watching Ask Not it was obvious that these are real freckles. But the calendar does only show the 5 that make a V. In AN, there is another row ( a W? )

Alexis, Also after watching AN: the body snatching would fit with Brody's healing experience--I mean, it wouldn't be anymore complicated than implanting an essence into an embryo.

I am thinking that the reason Brody's Beeper didn't mind Max is because he had the Kingly Stencil on his brain.

I have other ideas from AN re the Congresswoman, but they conflict with siverhandprint. Bluecornmoon, I'm afraid there are too many writers in any season to keep it straight. But that's what keeps us creating theories to tie up plot holes!

I rewatched Wipeout today, and I don't believe Niko was connected with the Dupes prior to this point in time. If he had been - as in being their shapeshifter - he would have immediately recognized Iz, but he didn't. He just had his suspecions that she was. I also got over to the Whitaker diary for another quick read - though I only got though a portion of it - but Niko was definitely part of the group of Twiloians that came to be known as Skins. SOOOO - that raises the question concerning HOW the Dupes came to Niko and the other aliens attention - enough to be invited to the summit?? Ummm... There is a definite missing link there!

In Ask Not tonight, did anyone else notice that the house that Max walks Tess back to is NOT the same house that TLV took place at? I noticed the first time around, but it didn't bug me until tonight - and was that one of those expensive antiques crashing in the background?

Also - the comments that Max makes to Liz about "I'm coming for you Liz!" makes more sense if you believe the theory that Liz is the bride sent on another ship for safe-keeping to Earth prior to the Pod Squad, which come later with Tess as the fake bride. I can picture Zan (Max in prior life) telling his maybe murdered bride, as he prepares to send her essence to Earth for safe-keeping that he will come for her, no mater what, he will find her! I'm not sold on that theory, but I can just picture it as I watch that scene!

Finally, those looking for six-pointed stars (or Stars of David, as I know them), there are two on the top shelves behind Liz's bed. They are prominent at the beginning of TEOTW - when FMax first comes into her room, and she stands on her bed. Just in case you haven't noticed those.

Night all!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

You all have seen all this symbolism that I haven't even noticed. I guess I was too wrapped up in the romance of the show to look more closely. Now I want to go back and watch all the episodes over again, just to see all the things you all have been talking about. Unfourtantly, I was one of the one's without much forethought, I didn't tape a single episode. If I had know about the things you all have been discussing just on this thread, I would have started with the pilot.

When did the entire world, with the exception of myself, become such a font of knowledge on things like symbolism. Seeing this thread it's impossible to think that the writers, whoever they may be for each episode, didn't intend for this all to come together. You guys are really amazing to have caught all of this stuff, let alone research it to find the real meaning behind it.

I, personally, have always thought that Liz is the real key to the Royal Four, and that Tess is some kind of decoy, or infiltraitor. That was even before I saw all the Fifth element stuff, and the Venus connection. How much research did the writers have to do to implant all this into the background for all of you guys to see? I would never have thought that they would go to that much trouble for a show about teenage aliens and their lives amoung us.

Does anyone know if they acually read the things you write on these threads? I hae heard that they had considered canceling the show, and that a show of support from the fans was the only thing that saved it. If they wanted to find out how we really felt about this show, all they would have to do is see this one thread. The time and thought you all have put into your research, only goes to show exactly how much of an impact it has had on the viewers. I can't imagine the fans of any other show going to so much trouble trying to figure out the implied meanings. It really is an awesome thing to see. I can only hope that somebody from the WB is keeping up with the hundereds of Roswell fansites on the net now, especially this one. It is the best one I have found yet.

I am a stay-at-home mom with three childeren, darn near thirty, and I was almost embarrassed by my fanatical love of this show that is obviously intended for a much younger audience. I don't feel even a little bit guilty anymore. It good to know there are so many of you all out there. The spectacular chemistry that is between Jason adn Shiri is more than normal teenage/twentysomething actors are normally capable of and I believe it is what makes this show so... I don't even have the words for it. I know this is probably not the place to post my personal review, but I just couldn't resis telling you guys what a wonderful job you have all done.

Thanks for the many hours of enjoyment I have already, and will have in the future, gotten from this web site.

dreamertoo

Ok, I have a question. This has bugged me since I saw it the first time and when I saw it again last night I knew I had to come in here and ask the 'experts'.

Remember when Max and Maria were outside at school and she just beat Max with the book? She said something like 'great leaders always follow their hearts'. IMO, this is also referenced to Liz. Remember in either TLV or 4SQ, Maria told her that she knew Liz followed her heart.

So what does this (if anything) represent anything to you?

Thanks in advance.

I rewatched Wipeout today, and I don't believe Niko was connected with the Dupes prior to this point in time. If he had been - as in being their shapeshifter - he would have immediately recognized Iz, but he didn't. He just had his suspecions that she was. I also got over to the Whitaker diary for another quick read - though I only got though a portion of it - but Niko was definitely part of the group of Twiloians that came to be known as Skins. SOOOO - that raises the question concerning HOW the Dupes came to Niko and the other aliens attention - enough to be invited to the summit?? Ummm... There is a definite missing link there!

********************************************

UNLESS - Nikolas the skin was at some point in time replaced with a shapeshifter. Which would explain his ability to survive Tess's "genocide" (that I STILL think was largely credit to MARIA) AND his lack of peeling.
In MITC he seemed to have a longer history with the dupes - and in between Harvest and MTD he was in ROSWELL - so when he would have been visiting NYC and establishing a relationship if he did not already know them?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I agree that if they can heal as they did Brody, emplanting genetically engineered embryos would be a cinch!

I had a dream last night that acted out Max’s past. He was in love with “Liz” but Ava was put in the wedding as a decoy because Zan feared for his true love and inspiration’s assassination. But instead of just the decoy/protector getting killed the whole bridal party was slain. In despair, “Liz” tries to lead the resistance, but is killed soon after. The resistance leaders, knowing that “Liz” is Zan’s true love and knowing that the prophecy will come true, sends her essence after the Royal Four revival mission.

This would explain Ava’s involvement and Mom-o-gram stating that she is Zan’s bride, when in fact it was supposed to be “Liz.” It would also explain why the true bride was sent separately and it would show that the true bride was a true leader, just as Liz is.

I also had a dream about possible powers Liz may possess(I have Roswell on the brain on Monday nights!!) We already see that she had a strong connection with Max. She knows when he is there and can comfort him like no other. Her powers are primarily psychic in nature (as are all the females with powers.). I thought it would be a huge gift to be able to touch someone and make them “forget” seeing some paranormal activity. That way, if something happened in public, bystanders wouldn’t be the wiser.

What powers do you think she will develop?

It just makes my insides BEAM!

Qfanny & Starbox - Interesting theories about the Sexual activity bringing out the alien essence in Liz more. Not only did the script imply that Maria was thinking Liz didn't look herself, but she told her "Liz, you didn't look normal." Could that have been her true self emerging??? I also find it very interesting that Liz will have flashes at random, with a kiss, a touch, when things are sexually heightened etc. Her flashes have no real pattern. But Max who is really an alien only gets flashes when he's healing (only time he didn't was with Kyle), when things are Sexually intense, and when he was afraid Kyle had Liz's journal. In fact, Max hardly ever has flashes, where as Liz's flashes are more frequent and at random. Also, something else, when he gets flashes, from Liz, they are always of her childhood. Has anyone ever addressed why they thinks this happens??? In the Pilot, and in SH almost all the flashes he had of Liz where of her childhood. Yes, he saw her fantasy, but we didn't see him see this. All the flashes that we're shown to us, was of Liz as a child. Could this mean that Liz's alien connection started when she was a child, perhaps with GC, or maybe she was born half alien, like many have suggested.

Also, has there ever been any discussion about the drawing that's on Liz's wall. You can see it behind GC in the picture below. Could it have some symbolism to Liz's destiny??? Hope this picture works.

i started dec 23rd after i found thread 23 had a url that took me to thread 10.I had read the first 9. i only now realize what devote fans you folks are. i will sign on every day now. i had head aches from reading so much. you guys rock.

Well guys I must tell you its so funny watching you all talk about things that we talked to death as the original episodes aired LOL!!!! Right Zero? Shapeshifter? LOL!!!! Oh and Zero I am so glad you are giving this theory a chance now--although I know you are not totally convinced of it.

STARBOX--so happy for you that you got your Season1 tapes I was feeling so bad about it--now you are rediscovering all this stuff again LOL!!!

Hey guys someone actually told me they were discussing my S theory on this other chat or something---ya see we are FAMOUS LOL!!!!!

You guys have made so many posts I can't even keep up with the information flowing Alexis, Miss Roswell,Dreamdancer,Bluecornmoon
(Blue I am curious about your name how did you come up with that?) Oh and NEMO I noticed that X at the bottom of Xmas tree as well--he!he!

Reguru--did you get to check out PLANET WUU outside the crashdown in the 285S eppy yet? Is this what could be on the Max's forehead in that book?

Thanks for the information on the rods--one of the reasons I particularly was interested it it is because in Meet The Dupes they show Tess--the word rods--and then that dna helix swirly thing?

Sorry, not yet. Work has kept me from what I really like to do best (watch Roswell)! Once I do, will let you know what I think. I really do like the explanation though about the W and it being a symbol of the Granilith because that would fit well with the other symbols on his head.

To all: The thoughts and conjectures on this new thread have been terrific. Really keeping me on my toes. Am going to have to check into the X's along with the W's and U's. I guess it has become alphabet time!

Still cogitating on Max's phrase "I am coming for you, Liz". He can't come soon enough to my way of thinking. Get to it, Max!

Aldebaran-no I did not notice the granilith looking pics in Ask Not in the museum but I will go back and look, thanks.

Starbox--I had this whole long post many many threads ago about the importance of Leaving Normal eppy and Grandma Claudia and QFANNY is very upset with me that I haven't posted it over on her archives---I am such a procrastinator. I believe that Liz used the words, "she is the BASIS for my existence" yes indeed. I rewatched LN recently and noticed that when Kyle was have a talk with his dad---they showed one of those HARVEST WHEELS over a hutch--had never noticed that b4--so we have one outside the crashdown, one beside Maxcedo right b4 he enters the Hall of Mirrors in M2tM and of course in the Harvest eppy itself.

Don't even get me started on the HORSE references--this has been everywhere I think LOL since the beginning.

What do you suppose is the significance if any of the use of double first letter wordings like Buddha Boy, beer blast, I forget the first word but when Kyle and sheriff were fishing he used a double b wording with b bass.

then we have Tourist Trap,troop transport,tictac,too tight,

concerned citizen,cashcow,culture club

Oh and Starbox in Leaving Normal did you notice that Max said to Michael we have to go back into our SHELLS. Isn't that what Courtney called the Husks-shells? and coming out from behind the tree(another husk reference) and of course in MITC Michael talking to Isabel saying about Max "so they think he is a tree hugger".

Birds have been mentioned many times relating to Liz, eagles in particular if I'm correct. Well, did anyone else notice the eagles on the wall we're Liz's desk is in CW's office? Liz was right in front when I saw them, I think there were 2. Can someone put a cap if they have it?

In school, the teacher was talking about the Kennedy Missile Crisis which was refering to Max and his troubles as a leader. Well, it reminded me of the movie that's coming out about the event (weird timing IMO) with Kevin Costner and it's titled "13 Days" 1+3=4. Is it fact that the crises lasted 13 days?

I also noticed a backward "c" when Max, Mike, and Iz were coming out of the museum. It was on the brick wall on the right. Did anyone else catch it?

I know this probably not new, but humor me please My apologies if this has been mentioned many times before me

Roxy

Starbox--just read about the horse in hospital waiting area---YES I remember that one---there is also a HORSE in Topolsky
s office when she is confronting Alex did you catch that one in Blood Bros?

Everyone is making me wish (for the millionth time) that I had the eps on tape! I just watched AN again last night and tried my hardest to pay attention to everything (though I know I was momentarily distracted by Max), but I still feel like I missed things. I DID tape that ep, though! And I am in the process of getting tapes, so one of these days, I will be able to follow everything that is posted!

GraceKel - I KNEW you had LN theory - and I was REALLY excited to watch it again because when I watched it the first time - to be honest - I didnt pay much attention to GC. After reading your posts about GC I was really sure to watch closely!
And I did see the harvest wheel. Do you think they might tie in Valenti's dad to the GC/Crash/Sheila Hubble/etc storyline???
And I did think the shell comment was interesting. I think the tree comments link to Liz not the skins though.
As for the double letters - it could be alot of things - possibly a reference to the dupes/decoys - possibly a hint to the number corresponding to the repeated letter (BB would be 2, CC - 3 - etc). I noticed in Pilot in BOTH the music room and the math/science room the letters AEF are written on the chalkboards. This would correspond to 1-5-6. Dont know if it means anything - but it was interesting.

Also about Roswell rods - in Missing when Liz talks to Max in the UFO center storage room - you see Max next to a folder with ROSWELL RODS-REAL FACTS written on the spine.
So that makes three Roswell Rods references at least. One the first time Max goes in the UFO center, one in Missing and one in MTD. So WHAT does it all mean????????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

GraceKel: Bluecornmoon, according to Native American legends, is the night when the moon is full and reflects its blue light over the maize (corn) fields, (at the time of Harvest), and the Great Spirit comes down to Earth to grant the warriors who possess a pure heart, their heart's deepest desire!). I adopted in order to register at FanForum right after watching Leaving Normal! Right there and then, I figured all the legends of "naceros" - visitors from far away, were related to Grandma and the podsters (no, I didn't think of the word at that time - it was a surprise when River Dog said it!) LOL!

StarBox: First scene Morning After: the blackboard behind Max (when Topolsky comes in), has a formula written down and it says: AEF.

Thanks,
Amanda

!!!!!!PLEASE VISIT THIS EVENT'S WEBSITE!!!!!! http://memamc.homestead.com/PCFbenefit.html

Bluecornmoon--I love that name and thanks for sharing the background info was very curious--and yes the Bykers Babes--I knew there were more examples I just could not think of them.

Also the AEF--this too I also noticed and more than one occasion they have focused only on the AFE (of the Cafe sign-in the an example is in leaving normal when Maria is talking to Isabel about covering for Liz notice just the AFE shown there are more examples of this--if I would write some of this crap down but no I don't unfortunately so its just from memory.

Aldebaran--good one CC=Crashdown Cafe--so obvious and it never hit me LOL.

In school, the teacher was talking about the Kennedy Missile Crisis which was refering to Max and his troubles as a leader. Well, it reminded me of the movie that's coming out about the event (weird timing IMO) with Kevin Costner and it's titled "13 Days" 1+3=4. Is it fact that the crises lasted 13 days?
Eagles in CW's office: She was a US Congresswoman, and the eagle is a common symbol of the US. I'm not surprised to see it there.

The Cuban Missle Crisis: About that long, yes. But remember, some things really are coincidences! For instance, Qfanny has not proposed that the last Nebraska State football game's score is a Roswell clue... but there it is: 13-2. Is that 13 the King, and his court? The traitor, and the patriots? The one that was raised seperately, and the ones that grew up together? On, and on... and is that 2 for 2 shapeshifters? Does that mean that the shapeshifters are in opposition to the podsters, or just that they are different?

You can go nuts on this sort of thing.

Sunrise--the movie 13 Days about the missiles of October incident--that 1 and 3 again--and of course we go back and forth between 1 and 3 and 1 and 4.LOL.

GraceKel Thank you! You have no idea how happy and flattered I feel by you saying that. I always feel kinda dumb compared to some of you guys cuz I feel like I don't contribute amazing things like say, You! I like reading what all you have to say and I feel more confident posting some ideas now, especially now that I've been taping the eppys (now, if only I could get season 1 on tape )

bluecornmoon I noticed that too!! It might have been sneaked in with reference to Max, but if you listen to what the teach was saying you can deduct it really meant LIZ

Reggie Thanx for the feedback! I guess I just don't know where the line between hidden clues and coincidence is lol.

Roxy

As for my background, it is in video production, (analog really- I don't know a thing about digital editing). And video is an electronic process. Film is a chemical process. This may not mean much to you, but it makes a huge difference on how something is edited and put together. Film is a better method than video by the way, but video is less expensive and faster. As far as doing a FX that takes the color out of the shot, or making it a negative, it is not difficult to do at all if you have the right equipment. A time base corrector with an oscilliscope and a vectorscope will let you monitor the video signal. The luma levels can be toned down, along with colors, hues changed... Sometimes I wish I had my own editing bay still, but alas, I like being able to pay my bills.

Off to find more questions to me.

Dreamertoo
As far as THE POWERS THAT BE, I do not know who lurks on fanforum. However, the message boards provides TPTB an almost instant gauge of response. I have heard that they do read and PM to people on the spoilers thread, but I cannot prove it. Emilie has a computer, Majandra has been quoted as to being on line. ALL the actors have posted on FF before, but I wouldn't know how often they lurk. (Nor would I want too...)

This place is just too amusing to ignore So post with the assumption that it could be read by anybody!

second-about the importance of X-X is the Roman numeral for 10! there is our five again!

great theories everyone! I love this thread!!

Along with Starbox's ideas on the flash during GC's healing, what if Liz saw the flash- the black & white negative in LN. Liz's the one that can see GC's astral projection. I don't think Max is able to see her. And if Liz has the power to astral project, it would fit that she could first start being able to see astral projections and then progress to being able to do it herself.
quote:Originally posted by Dayneen:
I also find it very interesting that Liz will have flashes at random, with a kiss, a touch, when things are sexually heightened etc. Her flashes have no real pattern.
Liz does seem to get flashes with greater ease than the rest of the podsters. Like some people have perfect pitch (the ability to name musical notes from sound), maybe Liz's ability to have flashes was "awakened" by Max during the healing/reverse connection. Her ability is the same as the others, but it is perfect. Like I can hear a sound, but someone with perfect pitch can even name it! I do not think that her flashes are terribly random, although, it seems that I cannot describe an exact pattern either. In S&Bs Liz knew that she was going to get a flash from Max when he touched her arm. Liz is very careful not to touch Max anymore because it seems she knows that it could trigger a flash. Or at least that is how I see it. Even Maria is tuned into Liz's flash pattern, based on her questions at the beginning of Ask Not.
quote:Originally posted by Dayneen:
But Max who is really an alien only gets flashes when he's healing (only time he didn't was with Kyle), when things are Sexually intense, and when he was afraid Kyle had Liz's journal. In fact, Max hardly ever has flashes, where as Liz's flashes are more frequent and at random. Also, something else, when he gets flashes, from Liz, they are always of her childhood. Has anyone ever addressed why they thinks this happens??? In the Pilot, and in SH almost all the flashes he had of Liz where of her childhood. Yes, he saw her fantasy, but we didn't see him see this. All the flashes that we're shown to us, was of Liz as a child. Could this mean that Liz's alien connection started when she was a child, perhaps with GC, or maybe she was born half alien, like many have suggested.I agree with your thesis statement, but I disagree with your proof. Max does get flashes. And Max did get flashes from Kyle when he healed him. And Max explained that he does see things when emotions are heightened in Missing. I do not know if it is safe to assume the "seeing things" is the same as flashes, but it would appear so. Max does get flashes, as does Michael. Isabel probably has gotten flashes, as she tried to get one from the Atherton's key and from Alex in SH. In Surprise, she got flashes of Tess. I am not sure if they were true flashes, or a mind warp from Tess or Courtney. But if there is a pattern regarding flashes... The woman have been luck controling them than the men. Or at least that is what it seems to me. When Michael got the key, he was knocked over by the flash it gave him. That does not suggest control. Max wasn't sure if what he saw from Liz was from himself, or from her... That indicates that Max may not be an expert in flashes if he wasn't sure.

Okay, off to find another question to me.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Hello. I thought I would add my two cents in here. I always assumed that the reason Max couldn't connect with GC in that way, is because her SOUL had already left her body. Thinking back on the language and dialogue that was frequently thrown back and forth on the show, I assumed that the SOUL was very important to this equation. Max: "We looked into each other's souls". That kind of thing.

I also always assumed that Liz got that flash from Maxcedo because he didn't have a soul either. Ya know? I do think it's interesting that even though Max couldn't connect with GC because she already had left her body...he was able to provide a connection for Liz to see her...hmmmm.

Maybe what was meant by knowing your enemies by seeing the evil within...was really all about being able to identify the enemies due to their lack of human souls. Hmmmm. It's possible. I wonder if the dupes have souls?

Come to think of it...is it possible that the dupes are really skins, planted by Nicholas in an effort to try and persuade Max to give up the Granolith? It would make sense that if Nicholas knew what the royal 4 looked like, he could construct skins. I know it takes like 20 years or something for the husks to grow, but if he had gotten a glimpse of the destiny book with the pics of the podsters as kids and then later on... Well, it could be possible. Maybe the other 'real' dupes are still out there!

By the way, this just ocurred to me. How could that destiny book have known what the podsters were going to look like 1st as children then as teenagers. Has anyone ever questioned that?

I'm on a tangent now... I need new material to go on! This break between new episodes is WAY too long.

Yikes!

You can go nuts on this sort of thing.

I am not familiar with Nebraska State University. There is no such thing here. I am familiar with the Huskers and the University of Nebraska - Lincoln. And as far as watching games go, the Bowl game this year was a huge disappointment for Nebraska because we started the season ranked #1 and fizzed out toward the end. I blame Solich myself.

As far as numbers go, I was born under a lucky sign in the Roswell world. It all how you look at it.

My birthday is May 8, 1972

May = 5
8+1+9+7+2 = 9+9+9 = 27 and 7-2 is 5!

So it's all how you look at things, isn't it.

Qfannie Starbox nice take on the sexual activity bringing about the change in Liz. That would be very likely. As we are all aware, our bodies do go through more than physical changes as we become adults. There are actual chemical and electrical changes that happen which bring about the awakening of our sexuality. Sexual activity enhances these chemical and electrical changes. Therefore, it would seem safe to say that our natural changes combined with the alien changes which would have been awakened when Max healed Liz, could most certainly bring about a deeper awakening of her alien side.

I don't remember who said it, (there is so much I get confused) but someone mentioned that they thought that Maria had a lot to do with the fireball that Tess generated. I thought that when I first saw WipeOut and after viewing again, I still think it. It seemed that the fireball grew and then just after the 'Rod' was crushed, it expanded - as if the timewarp was holding it back. I got the impression from Nicholas that he was surprised that she was able to cause it to grow. Almost as if he knew what was suppose to happen...

Back on another thread, I posted a theory on why Nicholas was able to withstand or make it through the fireball. I will summarize here. According to CWW's diary, Nicholas was the one who developed the new improved husks. I just can't believe that being the person he is and was, that he didn't have one or two other husks put away somewhere.

Also, I like the idea that Nicholas was put in a child's body by Khivar because of his past relationship with Vilandra.

Great posts everyone. Keep up the good wotk.

TTFN

It was you..................Max

From my script
quote:
INT. SCIENCE ROOM - DAY

The screen is filled with the stark and beautiful image of a spiral galaxy. It's identical to the one we saw in LIz's first flash. Pull bak to find Liz staring intently at the picture of the galaxy on a big, pull-down astronomy chart in the science classroom. She traces a path on the chart, with her finger. From behind, startling her :

Mr. Seligman:
You're early for detention, Ms. Parker. That' what I call making an effort to reform.

Liz:
I awas just, you know, looking...

Mr. Seligman:
It's okay. I'm happy to see you talking a renewed interest in science. Go ahead. You look like you have a question.

Liz: (points to spiral)
What's this?

Mr. Seligman:
The Whirlwind Galaxy.

She flips the chart to another view of the skies.

Liz:
And this is the Milky Way. Right?

Mr. Seligman:
Yes

Liz:
So-- how do these charts to together? I mean, where is this galaxy in relation to the Milky Way?

Mr. Seligman:
Direction in space is relative. That would depend on where you're starting from. Now, looking at this quadrant from Earth---

Liz:
But, what if -- I mean, if you flip it around. Let's say you were heading toward the Earth? When you passed the Whirlwind Galaxy, what on this chart would you see next?

Mr. Seligman:
Good question. Why don't you research it and bring the answer to class? In fact, you can do that in lieu of detention. I forgot I have a dentist appoinment this afternoon. I was just going to leave you a note.

Liz:
Mr. Seligman? One more thing. Could there be a red star, or a red something in this area, that isn't on the chart?

Mr. Seligman:
That would have to be a red dwarf.

Liz:
What's a red dwarf?

Mr. Seligman:
A sun in the very last stages of its life cycle. But, the light from a red dwarf is weak. So weak, it usually can't be picked up by our telescopes. There's a theory that there are red dwarf stars here. But it's never been proven.

Liz:
Well, thanks. Thanks a lot.

Mr. Seligman:
May I ask what inspired this sudden interest in astronomy?

Liz:
It's so beautiful. The universe.

Mr. Seligman:
It is, isn't it?

**Max arrives**

Mr. Seligman:
Mr. Evans... As Ms Parker will explain, you're off the hook.
You're an excellent student, Ms Parker. I'd hate to see anything get between you -- and the beauty of the universe.

Max:
What was that about?

Liz:
Max, I have to show you this...

**But first, she has to be held by him. And feel that.**

Max:
Hey. If this is detention...

**Now Liz turns toward the charts.**

Liz:
Max, the things I saw, the stars, they're real, I didn't make them up. I saw this.

Max: (cautious)
Maybe you just remembered them from seeing this chart. Or a picture in a book.

Liz: No. I mean, everyone knows the Milky Way. But, these other things -- I swear, I've never seen them before in my life. Max, this afternoon. I think I saw the crash.

Well, after typing all that in, I can see why this was edited way down, but it interesting isn't it? The theory that there are red dwarf stars in the Whirlwind galaxy, maybe 5 of them? And the fact Liz was trying to figure out where Max is from proves that she is the brains of the operation.

Look at this picture of the Crashdown Sign.

Maybe I'm TOTALLY reaching here...but does anyone else see the similarities?

Bluecornmoom - Zan and Zil - it has occurred to me before :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

B]

There is another symbol -- where these two shapes are broken apart - yet each has the dot in the middle.

And also another one, where the circle is closed with the dot in the middle.

I dunnno...I just happened across that pic of the Crashdown sign and it kind of jumped out at me.

QFANNY--thanks for that script in the lab with Mr Seligman-hmmmmmm the biggest clue I got from this was(and I know you are not going to believe this)his dental apt LOL---remember in Leaving Normal-since Star has been commenting on Leaving Normal so much, the conversation between Liz and Maria why would an ortho convention come to Roswell and that comment about those TOOTH PEOPLE are going to invade--also of course the orthodontists reaction to Liz they seemed in awe of her, "OH HERE SHE IS" and she comes over with a VENUS SPECIAL hmmmmm? Of course we have the VENUS tie in again here too. Well could Mr Selegman be one of these ortho aliens--another thing is the big WELCOME ORTHODONTISTS at the Museum--were they friendly to the museum?

Tipper

Have a great night all!

Also, I was watching Buffy tonight (which I rarely do anymore) and when I saw Spike drinking a beer my mind immediately snapped back to Roswell (I told you ) and Blind Date when Max gets drunk from barely drinking a sip. Well, I suddenly remembered silverhandprint.com and in CW's diary she talked about the skins drinking beer and not really having any effect on them cuz they didn't have a liver. It affected Max though and he is an alien, albeit not a skin, but if they're from the same planet doesn't it mean they're supposed to have the same anatomy? Unless... wait now I'm all confused can anyone help me get untangled from this web of nonsense I just created?

Not a thing to do with Liz, but I didn't know where else to post it sorry

Roxy

Roxy

Maybe this will help, but I get pretty dizzy from all the different theories and clues mysself. Here goes.
First, Max and the other podsters as hybrids with human DNA do have a human anatomy. In M2tM, Pierce was surprised that Max had human organs, yet his blood is not human. Second, in Surprise, CWW says to Is, 'you belong with us, our race. We're in charge now. Your kind doesn't rule anymore.' So they are of a different race than the skins.

Therefore, we see that is not just a war of five different planets, but most likely five different races, maybe more.

Does that help? :smile:

I'm coming for you.............Max

1) The Crashdown symbol - dont think it is the Lilith/Saturn symbol BUT - check this out.
From 285 SOUTH - look at the symbol inside the triangle on the door to the UFO center - its the CD from the Crashdown.

Now - here is the same symbol on boxes from Atherton's house - this is from Riverdog:

So - what does it mean??? What does the CD stand for???? Why is it in the UFO center on the door??? I am totally clueless on this one.

2) About Topolsky karate kicking the sheriff - you dont really see just WHAT happens to the sheriff (although it does look more like a hit to me) BUT - here is dialouge from Riverdog:
TOPOLSKY: How long have you been following me, sheriff?
SHERIFF: A while now.
TOPOLSKY: Observe anything unusual?
SHERIFF: Well, besides an FBI agent being assigned to our local high school, yes, I have. That's a hell of a kick you've got going. It about gave me a concussion. It's a good thing I'm not the sensitive type.

So - are we supposed to assume that she actually DID drop kick him??? One reference could have been bad writing but to mention it twice just is hitting me as being WEIRD.

3) Isabel makes a big deal out of Max being able to draw the yin/yang swirl from memory.
Liz is shown the pendant very briefly and indirectly ONCE and yet she tells Max later "I didnt come to ask your permission (to go to the indian reservation) if you dont give me the pendant I will just DRAW it". So LIZ can also draw it from memory. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I dont know - but this comment just jumped out at me.

4) At the beginning of Blood Brothers when Max and Liz are driving together you see a white picket fence behind Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Therefore, we see that is not just a war of five different planets, but most likely five different races, maybe more.

Does that help? :smile:

I'm coming for you.............Max

Thanx for clearing it up for me, I just got a flash-bulb idea and ran with it without really stopping to think and make sure it tied in with everything else Oh well

Roxy

Roxy

It's those flash-bulb ideas that often turn into deep theories because they open avenues that have previously been unexplored. Or they remind us of forgotten paths, theories, or facts that suddenly fit into the puzzle.

Either way, keep'em coming.

We create our own destiny............Max/FMax

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Isn't there also something about Tess having a photographic memory?? OOps, that was Topolsky who said she had a photographic memory, but then there is the theory that Tess and Topolsky are the same. If Max and Liz both can draw from memory and you want to infiltrate the podsquad, you would need someone who could mimic or have the same types of powers etc..

Just a thought...

It was you..............Max

Doesn't this screencap look just like the one of Sheila Hubble from the Convention? Eerie, huh!

I really wonder what the connection between the two is.

Atherton may have been an alien - the first room you came in at the geodesic dome, had a skylight in the shape of the pentagram that rung when the orbs where activated (I still don't know if those were just foes or there were friends / Skin deserters / others / evil aliens thrown in for good measure).

Jeff Parker asking Max (Into the Woods): what is it about you that makes people do what you want? still is my main reason to believe he is a protector. Phil Evans could be one also (same flannel shirt as Mexican guy (Tic Tac) by the Granolith, in SH!. Mrs. Parker... you know well why she may know her daughter is not what she appears to be (at least my mother knows what species I am...). The only clueless in the bunch is Mrs. Evans, who could be the human donor for Isabel! (Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when at first we learn to deceive.... ). So.. the Crashdown logo may just mean: home to aliens!

UFO Center: could Milton have been a Skin who was recalled until his new skin was harvested... and poor thing, is dust now?

Can't think of another reason why they share the same logo... <sigh> just trying to help!

Starbox glad to see you enjoying your season1 tapes LOL---now in 285S did you see Planet WUU outside the crashdown when they left to get in jeep? And did you notice that Liz says how scary it would be not to know your own history blah blah--and at least my mother knows what species I am--Nemo pointed out these two sentences--is it Liz that truly doesn't know her own history here?he!he!

Did you notice in RIverdog over the mantle those pics man and woman with all those symbols on it including the 4 square symbol? Did you notice Liz symbolically peeling out of the pod in Athertons basement when she peels the paper away?

Well guys I must tell you its so funny watching you all talk about things that we talked to death as the original episodes aired LOL!!!! Right Zero? Shapeshifter? LOL!!!! ... Picturing us standing around with the healing stones glowing, conjuring up new theories and new posters to present them

I just wanted to THANK everyone who has said nice things about the Intro! I is a labor of love!

The picture of the symbols made me think - isn't it unusual that not one of the symbols repeats? I'm not decoder, but I find that very unusual.

Everyone has been floating some great thoughts, I wish I wasn't so busy at work. My mind is drained, and I can't think what I was going to comment on now. Grace Kel - I did listen for the clicking at the end of MITC, but didn't really hear much, so my sound must not have recorded well! I like th idea of Niko being trapped in a boys body due to past behavior - I guess Khivar as some sense of humor if that is true.

Well - off to sleep! But first - talk about Roswell on the brain - I got our tickets to the local IMAX theater (get them automatically as a member of our local Science Center), and the new movie is "Solar Max"! One guess what my first thoughts were??

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Qfanny - I have to disagree with your theory about Max not seeing GC in the hospital room. When she called out to Liz saying "Honeybear," Max looked up, and continued to look in the direction of GC until her and Liz's conversation was over. Now maybe Max was watching Liz and could only hear GC, but I got the impression that he could see her too. I'm still debating your theory on the men not being able to control their flashes and the women can control their flashes. Need to think on it a little more. However, I do think that Isabel's visions in Surprise where a mindwarp of some kind from Tess. Like Max said, they get flashes when things are intense and things were certainly not intense, it was her b-day party. Then it was the way the visions would hit her. Though similiar to the way Michael was effected when he touched the key to Atherton's home, it was somehow different. It appeared that the visions just came to her at any given moment. Maybe the reason why the mindwarp was projected this way was because Tess was hurt and panicking. Now why couldn't she send a mindwarp to CWW to save herself, is beyond me?? Well I take that back, unless CWW ranned her off the road (her car was wrecked and the airbag had came out) and she was knocked out, therefore CWW was able to take control. Who knows??!!

GraceKel - You can add me to the list of persons who have spotted the WUU flag in Missing. Very interesting. It does remind me of the letters on Max's forehead in the destiny book. What does it all mean??? (WUu)

BTW,Starbox, Qfanny, & GraceKel thank you all for your responses to my questions about the flashes and the drawing on Liz's wall. It's hard to get a really good picture of it (the drawing) to do a more extensive investigation of it.

BluCornMoon - Youa re RIGHT! Athertons ceiling and door window look just like the beeper. Also - the windows in the front of the house look like the beeper when it was first lighting up. (Both symbols also look similar to the three triangle symbol in the UFO center as well).
Also - the beeper has only gone off in MIchael's presence - and he is the one that had flashes of Atherton's.
I dont know what it means - my gut feeling is that Atherton was not a good guy - but I could easily be wrong.

UpNorth - Yes - that scene is VERY similar to
Sheila Hubble. Add in the white picket fence image and you have a visual connection to th events of the 47 crash AND to Sheila Hubble.

GraceKel - I did notice the "my mom knows what species I am" line. Also - the pictures above the mantle - wonder if they could be Adam and Eve? The thing I noticed about the banner outside of the crashdown is that the bottom looked like the bottom of it looked like the Granolith "M" or "W".
***Warning*** Warning*** Wild Unsubstatioated Theory FolLows******
WHAT if the granolith is from the dying red star planet (thats why Nikolas said it was on their WorldS) - it was something they all shared somehow. The planet of the granolith could be the planet WUU. GC (and possibly her husband) could have been sent with the granolith (like Adam and Eve) to earth. That would explain why the Crashdown has the mural of the THREE Ufo's and the Picture of the Granolith mountain with the UFO. Also - why its murals have things like DNA strands and GLOWY ALIENS painted in them.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Qfanny—I disagree that Max didn’t see GC. When she says “Honeybear” he looks up. Anyone can see an astral projection if they are open enough to it. Max is since he saw GC and Liz.

In terms of the ease of flashes for the females with powers as opposed to the males, I agree. Like I said before, the abilities of the females is psychic in nature—meaning it has to do with their/others minds. Seeing flashes is an example of this. Michael and Max do have flashes, but like you said, Qfanny, they are unsure or can’t control it.

It appears that Liz is able to control these flashes better or with more calm.

Metaphyicalgirl—although I think that GC still had a soul, Max couldn’t connect like he could with Liz because what he saw showed that GC was going to die. That is why Max said “I’m sorry.” I think it meant more than “I’m sorry I can’t help you say goodbye.” But also “I’m sorry, she’s not going to make it.”

I also like the idea that K’var put Nicholas in a child’s body because he knew about Vilandra’s secret meetings with him and wanted to make sure that wouldn’t happen again.

Zero—why none of the symbols repeat: I think it is because each symbol represents a place. Since each place is different there would be no symbols that are the same.

Zero—why none of the symbols repeat: I think it is because each symbol represents a place. Since each place is different there would be no symbols that are the same.

[/B]

Although the kids seemed to assume it was a map last season - I also think it is possible that it could be their history. SF posted some interesting theories about this on the signs and symbols board - and the picture in the middle does look alot like a crash.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

And remember in Max in the City, Rath said that back home the people hate Khivar. Maybe the reason the people hate Khivar is because he turned on them.

Anyways, I was wondering what Topolsky meant in Crazy when she said to Sheriff Valenti, "You're protecting those kids too, aren't you". Could Topolsky have known about the shapeshifters being protectors? And what exactly did Topolsky see before she joined the special unit that got her so scared?

1) The Crashdown symbol - dont think it is the Lilith/Saturn symbol BUT - check this out.
From 285 SOUTH - look at the symbol inside the triangle on the door to the UFO center - its the CD from the Crashdown.

Now - here is the same symbol on boxes from Atherton's house - this is from Riverdog:

So - what does it mean??? What does the CD stand for???? Why is it in the UFO center on the door??? I am totally clueless on this one.

*Stands up and applauds*. You are TRULY amazing. What a good catch!! That really is very suspect!!! You know how the skins had the Universal Friendship League...well maybe the pods race had a similar kind of organization, with the CrashDown being the focal point or meeting place -- kind of like the UFL building in Harvest (does anyone know what the word "Robertson" means on the front of that building?) Maybe there is an army of the pods race on earth waiting for the Royal 4 to mature.

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
3) Isabel makes a big deal out of Max being able to draw the yin/yang swirl from memory. Liz is shown the pendant very briefly and indirectly ONCE and yet she tells Max later "I didnt come to ask your permission (to go to the indian reservation) if you dont give me the pendant I will just DRAW it". So LIZ can also draw it from memory. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I dont know - but this comment just jumped out at me.
Max drew the symbol BEFORE he saw Iz's Pendant. He drew it completely from memory...of having 'known' of it from somewhere else. Liz saw the pendant before she made that comment she would draw it if she had to.

I'm still reeling over that latest CD find. Amazing. You have quite the eye for details!

[b]Metaphyicalgirl—although I think that GC still had a soul, Max couldn’t connect like he could with Liz because what he saw showed that GC was going to die. That is why Max said “I’m sorry.” I think it meant more than “I’m sorry I can’t help you say goodbye.” But also “I’m sorry, she’s not going to make it.”

[/B]

I agree - except for the part about GC soul being IN her body. She definitely STILL had a soul, I just don't think it was in her body anymore! Max definitely was able to see GC when she was saying good-bye to Liz. You can see him look up, and you can see him watching them. Max HEARD GC tell Liz to follow her heart...how sweet, right?

Last symbol in string of symbol on left looks like Granolith doesn’t it?

I think Michael’s knowledge of what this is is correct (i.e. “It’s a map.”). He sometimes just knows. Since he was the 2nd in command, a military man at heart, he most likely would be the navigator for the group to get home. That is why he would be the one to figure it out and not Max. Kings don’t get into that much detail.

Burgundy on the Dreamer thread made a good point that I wanted to mention and bring up for discussion. Burgundy said that JK said that everyone’s powers reflect something in their personality. Tess’s main power is to show people something that is not there. So that would translate to mean that Tess isn’t who she appears to be (Which is what Max says in TLV “She isn’t what she appears to be.”).

With that, what do you think Liz’s powers would be? To see the evil within? To only communicate with Max? To warn others of danger (like she did with Max)?

LOL! Well you deserve alot of credit too - if you had not posted the CrashDown logo - I KNOW the CD logo on the door would not have jumped out at me.
And the boxes is Atherton's house - I had saved that screencap weeks ago because I actually thought it remeinded me of the UFL logo - you cant see the CD very well on the boxes without the UFO center sign as a guide.

Your thoughts on what it means are very interesting to me - I think that the three very well could be linked. Even though "CD" is a civil defense logo - it could have a deeper meaning in the Roswell Universe. After all - the ROYAL CROWN soda machine in the UFO Center is obviously a reference to the royals. Could it be that the UFO Center/Crashdown/Atherton's book were all "covers" - attempts to make the crash seem like a fringe "campy" "joke" - all the while
hiding the REAL aliens........ GraceKel - I know you have quotes to this effect from Blind Date I think - about hiding in the obvious???

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Also, I was re-reading the first book of the Roswell High series and this time I was searching for symbols or things that have been discussed here and throughout the book I kept seeing the number 5 a couple of times in relation to Liz. I also saw horse too. I thought it was interesting that this things not only show multiple times on the show, but were also in the first book which if I'm not mistaken was the only one read by Jason Katims. Is he borrowing these things? I'd say so.

Roxy

Interesting...

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

LOL. It's a mutual admiration society over here! I still think that the CrashDown logo looks too much like some of the alien symbols to have no bearing on things. Hmmmm. *scratches head and wonders*

I do have a question though. I re-watched part of harvest, and I noticed that when the camera was on the building of the UFL league -- they panned upwards, stopping to focus on the word Robertson. Because of the camera angle and how it was shot, I find it hard to believe it doesn't mean anything. What does Robertson have to do with the UFL? I checked Whitakers diary and Betty Osario's notes, and couldn't find any reference that made sense... I think it could mean something. I'm not sure what, though.

Anyhow...does "Robertson" mean anything to any of you guys? Sorry if this has been discussed before.

{~}:}

CW also says that it will be difficult to recognize the royal four. Maybe this means that Tess is Vilandra and not Isabel?

Another thing is when CW mentions that she could smell Max Evans on Liz the day she met both of them. Does that mean that Max’s scent or essence is permanently on Liz? They hadn’t seen eachother in 3 months and CW could smell his scent on Liz. Does anyone remember if he touched her?

can someone tell me, did CW say in Surprise that she had killed Nasedo?

if not ....

maybe Courtney did it. Remember in AN, when Tess says, the killer could be very close, or something, it immediately cuts to the scene of Courtney's disgusting face-lift. Maybe Courtney did it. Why? Dunno. But someone who knows, please get back to me re CW and Nasedo.

Thanks!

can someone tell me, did CW say in Surprise that she had killed Nasedo?

if not ....

maybe Courtney did it. Remember in AN, when Tess says, the killer could be very close, or something, it immediately cuts to the scene of Courtney's disgusting face-lift. Maybe Courtney did it. Why? Dunno. But someone who knows, please get back to me re CW and Nasedo.

Thanks!

I'm almost positive that at silverhandprint.com in the congresswoman's diary it says that she killed Nasedo, and that site is supposed to be approved by the WB. Just to let you know!

(I am at work and I don't want to start on a huge project yet).

Thanks

(I am at work and I don't want to start on a huge project yet).

Thanks
go to www.silverhandprint.com and click on left hand side symbol. Go to bottom of page and the arrows will guide you to all the pages.

Also, several weeks ago in Jason Katim's chat, he stated that the name of the planet would be revealed "next week" on silverhandprint.com I still haven't seen anything. Is anything there?

Also, several weeks ago in Jason Katim's chat, he stated that the name of the planet would be revealed "next week" on silverhandprint.com I still haven't seen anything. Is anything there?

In CW diary she says that maybe the two (bride and sister) were switched. That is why she suspects Tess. You would think that she would have checked out Isabel first, though.

As for the name of the planet nothing that I know of has come out.

Request: how do I get to the CW diary. I am really curious to read it but can't find it. Thanks, for your help.

Request: how do I get to the CW diary. I am really curious to read it but can't find it. Thanks, for your help.

Go to www.silverhandprint.com
Then click on the triangle symbol at the top left side of the page. The other symbols will get you into Betty Osario's notebook, some autopsy photos, and interviews with the cast "in character"

can someone tell me, did CW say in Surprise that she had killed Nasedo?

if not ....

maybe Courtney did it. Remember in AN, when Tess says, the killer could be very close, or something, it immediately cuts to the scene of Courtney's disgusting face-lift. Maybe Courtney did it. Why? Dunno. But someone who knows, please get back to me re CW and Nasedo.

Thanks!If you read http://www.silverhandprint.com/ufl/24.html , it indicates that CW did kill Harding. But the writer of silverhandprint doesn't seem to be anymore troubled by consistancy than any of the other writers.

quote:
INT. MAX'S ROOM - NIGHT

Max, Isabel, Michael deep in conversation. Isabel does her nails, using her powers to file and try different colors, while they argue.

Max:
She said it was as if she was inside the ship. Looking out. When it came crashing toward Earth.

Michael:
Did she see anyone on the ship? Like our parents?

Isabel:
(blase)
Or Captain Kirk? And the Klingons?

Michael:
What if it's real?

Isabel:
How could it be real?

Max:
I see things. From inside her head. Maybe she's seeing things stored deep inside me.

Michael:
What did you see inside her head?

Max:
I can't tell you. It's private.

Isabel:
Oh, c'mon. Tell us anyway.

Max:
I really can't do that.

Isabel:
I'll tell you what I saw in her dreams...

Max:
(disapproval)
You've been in her dreams?

Isabel:
I like to get to know my friends.

Michael:
The things you see about her, do you know they're real?

Max:
I'm not sure.

Michael:
Can't you ask her?

Max:
(after a pause)
I don't want to embarrass her.

Isabel:
Now you have to tell us. If you don't, I'll set your hair on fire.

Max:
I feel sorry for both of you.

(Michael, frustrated that Isabel won't take it seriously.)

Michael:
Max. If it is real. If there's a chance it's real. You owe it to us. To do some more research. And in the meantime, I'll pursue... my own avenues.

(On Isabel. Trying to be blase, do her nails, not give in to the suddenly lonely awareness, that she's the one in the room without a partner. With a smile, a "joke".

Isabel:
Don't look at me. I don't have any avenues.

So what did you think of this one? Pretty interesting twist. For one, the scene is in Max's room, not Michael's apartment. For two, Isabel has dreamed walked Liz, and probably others we don't know about too. Third, Isabel does like to keep her nails neat with her powers. That and set fire to things. Is Isabel the new fire starter? (Oh, maybe that's how CW got Is and Tess confused. Tess is the firestarter.)

Anyway, for those that said Max saw GC, you are probably right. He probably did see something. I do not think that GC was an astral projection anymore because she had a voice. Liz has no voice when she astral projects. So, did was see GC's bodiless soul?? What was it? Her spirit? How was she able to speak. Was she getting help from Max?

Great comments about CW - I havent responded because - honestly - I dont know WHAT to make of her - its all so confusing! And the diary doesnt help things at all - it raises so many questions about her past. I do think she was working with Courtney - why would she need the granolith because her skin was dying if she was going to get a new husk at harvest-time.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

CW also says that it will be difficult to recognize the royal four. Maybe this means that Tess is Vilandra and not Isabel?

Another thing is when CW mentions that she could smell Max Evans on Liz the day she met both of them. Does that mean that Max’s scent or essence is permanently on Liz? They hadn’t seen eachother in 3 months and CW could smell his scent on Liz. Does anyone remember if he touched her?

I noticed this too and thought it was a strange thing for CW to say. It must mean that Max's essence or scent is somehow embedded in Liz--because they hadn't seen each other all summer. Of course this makes you wonder if Kyle now has Max's scent embedded in him as well.

But I think the reason that Liz has Max all over her is due to the combination of the reverse connection and the fact that he healed her.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
OK. I may be showing my age, but the triangle/circle/CD logo is for the Civil Defense administration. Their big thing was bomb shelters and fallout shelters. Notice that the Museum is underground (you come in off the street, and go down steps, right?). It qualifies as a Fallout Shelter; you'll see a logo with alternating black and yellow equilateral triangles near the door of many public buildings with basements. It also says "Fallout Shelter", hint hint. Walk around your city hall, court house, school, or church: odds are, you'll see them yourself.

Fallout shelters are intended to house folks for some time, so they are stocked with water and long-time storable food. Military rations are ideal for this sort of thing, of course. If one were going to set up a hiding place, using retired CD or military supplies would be a good idea. That's probably what Atherton did. By the way, back then, geodesic domes were all the rage in certain circles; so for Atherton to have one is typical, not strange.

As for the CD logo at the CrashDown, the letters fit together to look like a flying saucer. It's a cute logo, not a clue.

Did anyone else notice in LN that GC's room number was 104. 1+0+4=5 Also, in Monsters, before Izzy dreamwalks Maria, you can see her clock and it says 3:12. Well, in MITC that same time pops up again on Maria's clock when she agrees to meet Liz at the fountain.

GraceKel: thank you for the white fence explanation. I'm aware of that but I was wondering: Does that mean that Liz wants a normal life as opposed to the one she would have with Max? What is the consensus?

LizParkerFan: K'var isn't a Skin. Skins are only those Twilonians who have given their allegiance to K'var and didn't have the technology to adapt human DNA to their own make-up and had to wear husks. They are probably the same race. They are most definitely the same species!

MetaphysicalGrl: It was only after Grandma Claudia said her goodbyes to Liz, under Max's watchful eyes, that the beep flatlined. She was alive during the dialogue! BTW, astral projections can speak. Liz couldn't because this was her first time. Give her a bit of practice and experience and the girl will talk up a storm!

[1] do you think the Civil Defense logo only refers to the bomb/shelter supplies....

[2] is the stylized C and D in Crashdown just a reference to this symbol (which was probably prevalent when they converted Pete's bar to the Crashdown cafe)....

[3] do you think there is another connection between Atherton/Milton(Brody??) and the Parkers? 3) Not that I can see any hint of.

2) I don't think the Crashdown CD is meant to refer to the Civil Defense one (either by the cafe founders or by the writers). But I think the letters CD may have further significance -- what it may be, I don't have a good clue yet. There seem to be more CD's about than just these two -- I think GraceKel once listed these plus some more, but I don't remember them all. She thought something might be up with that (if I remember right), and I tend to agree.

1) No. Besides the general mystification about 'CD' just mentioned, the 3-triangle fallout-shelter symbol serves another purpose. For Milton, it ratchets up the museum's air of tension another notch. For the writers, it does the same thing for the larger story: it connects frightful ideas (sudden attack, nuclear holocaust, radioactivity hazards) with the number 3.

Compare the Y-shaped fallout-shelter symbol, and especially the radioactivity symbol (Y with a central dot) with the Zia sun symbol (+ with a central dot). This now being the symbol for the State of New Mexico, you see it in Whitaker's office and more often at the sheriff's -- on his pen-holder or desk sign, also on the building and its doors in ITW -- note the similar placement of the symbol on this building with its 3-fold counterparts flanking the museum doors. The arrangement is strikingly similar except for the 3 sectors instead of 4. Now, that sun symbol is said to reflect the Zia belief that the gods sent good things into this world in fours. The contrast seems to be hinting that there is terrible danger when one of the four is missing.

*******************
Except that Atherton disappared/was killed in 58 - WAY before the age of the geodesic dome as a "vouge" hippie housing option.

Nemo beat you to the Civil Defense logo explanation a few pages back - but the fact that it is repeating symbol is still significant. It could well be just a reference to the actual Civil Defense Org - but - it could also tie the characters together. Set designers use visual clues and repitition to create a map for the subconcious - we know we FEEL like certian things are linked - but we dont know WHY uless - of course - we GraceKel things :-). Its the same way a good composer uses a theatrical score - the repitition of themes and movemennts creates an emotional landscape that the viewer responds to on a subconcious level.
I think that for the set designers to use any symbol (or number) repetedly - it is probably a clue. After all - this is a telivision show - not real life. They get to CHOOSE what signs and symbols go where - as opposed to the random placement of such signs in real life.
And - again - set designers are professional artists that take their jobs very seriously.
To dismiss the work and thought that they put into small details as being just random bits of nothingness is like visiting an art museum blindfolded. Everything you see on the set was PUT there. And with a good set designer- it was put there on purpose. Listen to a set designer/art director talk about their work someday - they will BLOW you away. I would bet money that even our obsessive selves are not picking up on 1/4th of what they put in.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Anyway, I do think Liz wants a normal life. She tells Topolsky, you've got to have a plan. She plans things! But Topolosky tells her to "take things as they come." Her life is not suppose to be Normal. And I think that is what Leaving Normal is all about.

Also, I was watching Pilot, again: hehehe! But Liz says, "For the first time I was really seeing Max Evans, I saw me as he saw me, and the amazing thing was, in his eyes, I was beautiful."

She sees Max Evans for the first time because she understands just how important her presense is to Max. Max may not understand. Liz may think it's love-crush. But she sees Max Evans because she sees him as he sees her... Does this makes sense. It's like Max is a mirror for Liz. He literally becomes the glass as Liz sees her reflection, her importance in his mind. And we she did see herself, she saw Max Evans.

Wow!
quote:Originally posted by bluecornmoon:
MetaphysicalGrl: It was only after Grandma Claudia said her goodbyes to Liz, under Max's watchful eyes, that the beep flatlined. She was alive during the dialogue! BTW, astral projections can speak. Liz couldn't because this was her first time. Give her a bit of practice and experience and the girl will talk up a storm!
That's right! GC was alive until the projection ended. I thought that astral projections had no voice, but maybe after practice you can develop one. This would indicate the GC may have been altered too wouldn't it?

I see -- Nobody beat me. He would, of course.

~Nemo [= Nobody (in Latin)]

I completely agree. GC didn't die until after she said goodbye. What I'm saying is that her spirit -soul- energy -astral body, whatever you want to call it was not inside her physical body when Max tried to connect with her. It doesn't mean that she was dead..it just meant she wasn't home, so to speak. As a believer in all things metaphysical ( hence the name )...well, this really isn't a stretch for me and I agree that astral projections can speak, and I'm sure Liz will be talking up a storm in no time!

My original point, I think, had something to do with human souls...but now I'm so confused, who knows where I was going with that.

I will say this though, I'm a HUGE fan of GC and I really feel that there is more to her story then we know yet. I just hope they remember to go back and sow the seeds they planted in LN.

Woo Hoo GC !!!!!!!!!

2) I don't think the Crashdown CD is meant to refer to the Civil Defense one (either by the cafe founders or by the writers). But I think the letters CD may have further significance -- what it may be, I don't have a good clue yet. There seem to be more CD's about than just these two -- I think GraceKel once listed these plus some more, but I don't remember them all. She thought something might be up with that (if I remember right), and I tend to agree.
[/B]

I suppose it could be as simple as the fact that C and D correspond to 3 and 4.
Thanks for the info and response Nemo - Lack of new Roswell episodes always makes me start to speculate a bit too much.
:-)
**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

The reason I wonder if Twilo is still out there is because its galaxy (Whirlwind) is so far away. (on the order of millions if not billions of light years away) Putting aside the fact that we'd never be able to see a single star explode in a galaxy that far away, if we could see the explosion it would take millions of years for the light to travel to us. So any visual news is old news. "Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away…"

The main travel problem is that the distance between Earth and the V make travel by spacecraft impossible unless of course, there was a worm hole, which is one of the implied functions of the granolith - a kind of portable worm hole. We also know from EOTW it can be manipulated for time travel as well.

The fact that our story probably includes both a recurring time line (loop) AND time travel (jump) only complicates things.

Now for the summit. We know more about Nicholas than any of the others at the table, and we know from CW's diary and from his own inferences that Nicholas has been stuck on this planet looking for the royal four since at least February 1, 1950 so he and the (other) skins can "get to the granolith and go home." (CW diary, page 1) Nicholas and the skins have no capability for physical travel to and from their home planet. Larek and the timecard dude at the summit (according to Rath, for what that's worth) are aliens using human bodies as their hosts because it's too far to travel physically to the summit. It's not clear whether the other folks at the table traveled to the summit from the V or are also exiled to Earth like Nicholas, the dupes and the skins. For all we really know, the summit may have been a room full of exiled aliens who were simply trying to get Max to lead them to the granolith so they could get home. It's possible that the ones in host bodies may have only traveled from another location on Earth. Pardon the use of a recurring theme, but people at the summit aren't exactly laying all their cards on the table. I get the impression everyone there knows a little bit but is keeping quiet out of fear and self-protection (not unlike Max, btw.) What if what they know and what they are representing at the table is the story (read MYTHOLOGY) of the V and their belief in their own part of the story rather than the physical place itself? An ancient mythology? Granolith as grail, etc…

One lightbulb insight I've had this week pondering space travel in the story has been that if Rath was telling the truth (for once) there are beings who travel by mind rather than body. Can Khivar? Perhaps not, since Nicholas was representing him at the summit. Nicholas can't travel by mind or he'd be home by now. Likewise the lesser skins. Harding the shapeshifter couldn't do it, and if we explore our podsters and their friends: Tess, though she can start a fire and make you see something unreal, has shown no signs of travel; Michael says he was born to fly but hasn't shown any skill for it yet; Isabel can dream travel to someone fairly nearby who's sleeping or unconscious; BUT --- Sweet little LIZ traveled a couple thousand miles to New York City to guide Max out of the way of the falling platform. Look who's flying now! And look ma, no granolith! Or better yet, look! I'm THE granolith!

My head hurts - I'm going to bed.

Thank you for bringing this up Tipper; it's been bugging me too. I keep thinking of possible explanations, but they all fall flat. Like: Maybe Vilandra stole someone's True Love in the past life. And maybe Whittaker assumes the sister/bro thing wouldn't necessarily carry over into this life. In the journal she 'writes:'

Maybe the reference to the Queen reversing roles is supposed to be interpreted as the sister becoming the lover (ick).
I also thought CW's obvious depression over the loss of her lover didn't fit with this journal entry. I guess we are supposed to accept that she is mourning the loss of the 'real Daniel' who was obviously 'replaced' by Harding (thanks, apparently, to Michael, as we witnessed).
quote:Originally posted by starbox:
...Except that Atherton disappared/was killed in 58 - WAY before the age of the geodesic dome as a "vouge" hippie housing option.Good point!! Even as a former hippie dome dweller, I hadn't thought of that.

Not neccesarily. Astral projection is something that humans are capable of. Since I know how all of you are a bunch of SPONGES when it comes to info...I got you the following on Out Of Body Experiences (OBE's or Astral Projection). Enjoy.

Same species yes, but -- In Surprise, Whitaker says to Isabel "You belong with us, our race. We're in charge now. Your 'kind' doesn't rule anymore."
This sounds to me as if the podsters are of one race and Khivar and the skins are of another race. What do you think??

It was you.......Max

One lightbulb insight I've had this week pondering space travel in the story has been that if Rath was telling the truth (for once) there are beings who travel by mind rather than body. Can Khivar? Perhaps not, since Nicholas was representing him at the summit. Nicholas can't travel by mind or he'd be home by now. Likewise the lesser skins. Harding the shapeshifter couldn't do it, and if we explore our podsters and their friends: Tess, though she can start a fire and make you see something unreal, has shown no signs of travel; Michael says he was born to fly but hasn't shown any skill for it yet; Isabel can dream travel to someone fairly nearby who's sleeping or unconscious; BUT --- Sweet little LIZ traveled a couple thousand miles to New York City to guide Max out of the way of the falling platform. Look who's flying now! And look ma, no granolith! Or better yet, look! I'm THE granolith!

My head hurts - I'm going to bed.

OMG This occured to me seconds before I read your post! Could it be possible that our Liz might end up more powerful than the podsters themselves?

Roxy

Metaphysical - loved your thought on Liz's powers being a sign of her "humanness".
I think there is alot of credibility to the theories that Liz needs to change/evolve. You see it repeated alot in the early episodes.
Here is one passage the struck me tonight - from Balance:

VOICEOVER: I've always been the one who comes through in the time of crisis. I do what's necessary, and I don't panic. But seeing Michael so sick and having no way of knowing what was wrong or how to help made me scared. Scared that one day something could happen to Max and I wouldn't know how to help this person who means so much to me, who means everything.

Now - after Liz CHANGES - in MITC Max IS in a similar position and Liz DOES know how to help him after all. In fact - she is the ONLY one that can help him. Nice touch (although I am sure it was a coincidence) to have the "Youre Everything" song playimg right afterwards :-)

I noticed the descendants sticker and the hand-holding poster :-) - you all are brilliant to pick up on all the details.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Given that OBE's are a somewhat common occurance with human's, I would agree that being able to astral project is not the special power, but the fact that Liz was able to connect to Max is. So Liz's human powers have been enhanced. Isn't that sortof what Nasedo was saying about the podsters when he was explaining how they get their powers? someone.. I don't quite remember exactly what he said..

It was you..............Max

It was you.......Max

There are small minded ppl today that insist that blacks, Asians, Native Americans, and whites are all different races! But everyone knows that we are the same species. If the writers meant species, they would have said it IMHO....

Could this mean that the Twilonese are in the middle of a RACE war? That would put a whole different spin on the Alien/Human coupling if war broke out because of failure to accept one another's differences.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I have been pondering a theory that the humans and aliens are related in someway. We have had hints of ancient connections. Thus it is highly possible that the humans and the aliens are of the same species - organisms capable of interbreeding. However, the comment in question from CW clearly indicates that the royal 4 and the skins are of differing populations or, as she says, races.

This does sound very much like a race war.

Hope this cleared up any misunderstandings.

It was you.......Max

***
I just put some pieces together and suddenly came across this idea. I'll try to be clear here: Ok, in the wb chat, Jason Katims said that each of the characters' powers' reflects their own personality and things about them. In the end of season 1, we learned that Tess can "show people things that aren't really there." Does this perhaps imply that that's what Tess is doing with Max--showing him a Destiny that doesn't really, concretely exist (look at how Michael and Isabel don't seem to care about their "destiny")? Perhaps she is deluding herself into believing that Max could "come around;" I'm just thinking about the implications for her personality. Does this sound remotely possible or am I just reaching here?

I also noticed something on the Friendshippers' thread (BTW, you all should visit it sometime if you're a fan of Ros' friendships; it's a nice thread). Anyways, Aphid mentioned that perhaps the changed humans (Liz and Kyle) need an alien to help them use the powers they developed, like how Isabel helped Liz contact Max in MITC. Does this involve potential time between M&L developing Liz's powers? Hmmm...
***

I was just wondering your thoughts on this.
Goodnight all!
Burgundy

It was you..............Max

I have actually had a few OBE’s in my life. People in their pubescent years are more open to this sort of thing. When I was 13 I was extremely psychic! One night, when I was about to go to sleep (but I WASN’T asleep) I felt a mental pull that led me to shut my eyes abruptly. Suddenly I was standing in the room of a classmate of mine. He lived about 4 blocks from me, but I had never been in his house, let alone his room. I saw the way his room was laid out, what he wore to bed and the color of his bed spread. Just as abruptly as my eyes had closed, so did they open. The next morning I had a friend of mine ask him some questions to learn that he did wear sweats to bed, he did have a desk in his room near the door and he did have a red, white and blue bedspread!!

The second time I OBE’d was during my 8th grade physical science class. Things were completely normal for me as I walked into my class. I went straight to my seat and began balancing my chair on two legs. Again my eyes shut tight. Just as I was closing my eyes, I noticed my teacher see me do this. I astral projected into a classroom on down the hall and around the corner. This same friend of mine was there (we had an intense psychic connection—evidenced by us wearing the same colors at least 3 times a week at the time). He was wearing all white (I hadn’t seen him yet for that day) and was sitting next to my friend, Margie. He was joking with her and they were kicking eachother playfully under the table. I remember him laughing a lot. Margie accidentally got a little dirt on his white pants and he said “Ah, no, my pants are dirty.” Flick! My eyes were open again and I was in my science class. My teacher was staring at me. He knew that something paranormal had happened. He never questioned me about it but he looked at me strangely for the rest of the day! Later that day I saw Margie and asked if she noticed Sal laughing a lot in class. Her response was “Yeah, it was pretty funny. We were playing around and I got his white pants all dirty.”

So those are two of the times I OBE’d. Anyone else?

[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm loving all the talk about LN, by the way. I know there was a lot of theorizing over the summer involving GC, etc. LN is by far one of my favorite episodes and I have long been wishing for them to tie up the loose end with GC. Some people believe that she was nothing more than a dying relative through whom Max and Liz grew closer, but I tend to believe she lends more to the Mythology than may meet the eye.

As for the race/species thing back on P-SAWN (oops, CHAD reference...do you guys call the home planet Twilo? Fuzzy memory), would it be stupid to suggest that perhaps the 'races' were the people from each planet? They might be different 'races' as we see here, with distinct hereditary traits. CWW said to Isabel, "You had a great love. For him you betrayed your brother, your race." Or something like that. Was it QFanny that first suggested the idea of the war being started because of unwillingness to accept people who are different from themselves? I like this theory a lot, especially because of the Podsters' bonding & interaction with the humans. About Max being like MLK with trying to do too much too soon, I think it's entirely plausible. Max is just that kind of person who would try to eliminate racism (planetism??) ASAP in one swipe. Crusader like MLK or Abraham Lincoln.

"The 3rd Annual TV Guide Awards will be taking place on FOX this March. Roswell and the cast have been overlooked...again !

In the current issues of TV Guide is an Official Ballot for submitting your choices in the categories listed. Our idea is to cross out the choices given in a certain category and write-in your Roswell choice under that category. (For example: Actor Of The Year In A Drama Series - Jason Behr, Roswell; Drama Series Of The Year- Roswell; etc) The categories that apply to Roswell are: Drama Series of the Year; Actor of the Year in a Drama Series; Actress of the Year in a Drama Series; Supporting Actor of the Year in a Drama Series; Supporting Actress of the Year in a Drama Series.

But also be sure to vote in all other categories so the ballot will be considered valid. According to the rules for submission, mail-in ballots must be postmarked by 1/24/01 and received by 1/29/01. So we don't have much time...let's get out and buy those TV Guides!! PS~internet does not allow you to put in your own choice."

Thanks for your time. PM Maxwhipped if you have any questions.

StarBox: Oh, I resent that you say we have not picked up 1/4th of the signs and symbols the art directors have left for us to pick up! If they have and we haven't, then they must be geniuses!

Zara: I, too, thought for a while that Twilo vanished in the explosion of the red star! It may still happen but.. I think it's still standing. The temporaries were being possessed by beings in Twilo in "real time". They couldn't travel because of the incredible distances, hence the possession. One of the reasons why the Skins may be here may be the possibility of taking this planet over. If their sun is red, it's on its way out and they must know it! BTW, given enough time and the right equipment, yes we could see the light of a star that far away exploding! We recently received light from a quasar 155 million light years away! That's farther than the Whirlpool Galaxy (a/k/a Whirlwind) really is!

You said: " The fact that our story probably includes both a recurring time line (loop) AND time travel (jump) only complicates things." No, it doesn't. Nobody in Twilo has the technology to time travel. Only the Guardian of the Granolith WILL have it, after Liz and Serena discover how to use its power to create a tear in time-space (string theory anybody?). As we know, Max is the Guardian and "Worker" of the Granolith, but he will only be able to do it when the key, Liz, is there. So…. since they can't time travel and distance is incredible, Twilo is still standing and populated by many!

Also, we know that CW and Nicholas have been here, stuck on Earth, punished is you will, because they have not found the Royal Four. But we don't know that they literally are stuck. K'var may have dropped them ("Next Stop: Earth!) and brought the ship back home. When they have the Royal Four, all they'll have to do is phone home and ask for transportation. They can't yet because it's only now, on May 14th, 2000, that they found the podsters. Vanessa saying we need the Granolith to go home was not because they'll get in, punch some numbers in some keyboard and puff! Twilo!. They don't know how to use it. They can't use. The Granolith is their ticket home because K'var will pick them up, nothing else! The other Ambassadors are not stuck here, they were supposedly "representing" their planets (I don't think so - they were clearly K'var's minions, including Larek, who may not be the real Larek), and were surprised by the information imparted by Nicholas, because they thought the Granolith was with K'var and that behavior would only be possible if they lived over there, not on Earth!

As for K'var, the Skins, CW, Nicholas and the race issue: There are five planets (I think the fifth one is Earth so we won't discuss that one - we know what we are - LOL!). The other four planets are within traveling distance from each other! They probably import/export things back and forth! They have the same rulers, so they must. If they do, they must be the same species (probably the most advanced colonized the other 3). Save the obvious changes that happen in Nature because of distances (think of the differences in animal population between Australia, Madagascar with the rest of the "joined" continents), they are very similar. I thought the differences were in the type of rule: K'var was a democrat and Max was monarchy (which should have been outdated really). That was probably K'var's ticket to power. However, the little Hitler-in-disguise got a taste of power and became a despot! They fell from the pan into the fire! Other than that, there is no difference except that one may have curly hair and be lighter of skin and the other one straight hair with darker tones (or their equivalent!).

However, I so agree with you about Liz and her powers. She will travel beyond the stars. I don't think she is the Granolith. I think Max is the Guardian, the only one who can work it but he can only work it when all parts of the equation are present. He is one. Liz is the other. Period. Nobody else.

I agree with 4everyoung (Hi Marji!) I don't think her special power is the ability for astral projection. Maybe we won't see her do that again. I do believe that she will develop powers in direct relation to what Max needs. Her powers are a projection, an extra arm that depends on its growth on where he is or what he is doing at the time. Astral projection is an ability that we all, apparently, have within us. She just enhanced that part in order to help Max. That is her real power. Just wait and see!! I love that girl!

CWW probably knows that Khivar is shapeshifter, but has accepted him as one of them since he helped them out.

Roxy

Good morning Mythers! Here's my two cents on the Skins being on Earth theory.

In Harvest, they referred to Max as the once and FUTURE king. If Khivar is the 'leader' of the skins race, faction, or whatever you want to call it, and got on the throne by killing Max and the Royal 4, it would make a whole ton of sense that if he found out the Royal 4's essences were sent to earth to be reborn -- well, if I were him I sure as hell would send some soldiers down to that little blue ball to make sure they didn't live long enough to come back to Twilo! I think THAT is why the skins are on earth. Not to take over planet Earth -- but to find the Royals and kill them, thus preventing any chance of them getting back to Twilo and re-claiming their rightful positions. Yes? Any takers on this theory? I think we have enough evidence to support that one...

{~}:}

But don't forget to factor into any of these theories the fact that "time exists in multiple subsets" on Planet Twilo. The fact that time exists differently for them - changes everything. When thinking about time and space, they might have a different perspective, or point of reference then we do.

For example, in our world, the discoveries of modern physics necessitated profound changes of concepts in things like space, time, matter, object, cause and effect, etc. Since these concepts are so basic to our way of experiencing the world,once we were forced to look at the world through the different eyes of modern science, it was a shock, and we were forced to question how these new things effected the way we experienced our world. The old world view we used to have, based on Newton's mechanical model of the universe, led us to look at space and time as seperate entities, time was measured in a linear sense, etc. With the advances in modern science, we are coming to know this is not really the case.

My point is, if I even have a point, is that we are trying to make "our" ideas about space/travel/time and whatnot apply to Twilo and the other planets in their solar system. If time exists differently on their planet, and we know it does, then all of our theories about all of that stuff would be null and void. They have a different point of reference then we do - thereby changing the framework for measurement of such things.

Basically, we can't apply our laws to their planet because our fundamental scientific laws are different then theirs. Humans can't exists in multiple time subsets...we disappear. So, can we really accurately say what they are capable of in regards to time travel, space travel and such? I don't think so.

But hey, it's still fun to theorize!

{~}:}

Also, we know that CW and Nicholas have been here, stuck on Earth, punished is you will, because they have not found the Royal Four. But we don't know that they literally are stuck. K'var may have dropped them ("Next Stop: Earth!) and brought the ship back home. When they have the Royal Four, all they'll have to do is phone home and ask for transportation. They can't yet because it's only now, on May 14th, 2000, that they found the podsters. Vanessa saying we need the Granolith to go home was not because they'll get in, punch some numbers in some keyboard and puff! Twilo!. They don't know how to use it. They can't use. The Granolith is their ticket home because K'var will pick them up, nothing else!
[/B]

I agree with you BlueCornMoon - this is the same impression I got from the Nikolas/Lonnie exchange. Great post.

About the race question. The was has been referred to numerous times as a REVOLUTION - not a civil war - which I think leads to the idea that the factions were more different politically than racially.

Also - what do you all think the shapeshifters are?? Are they a seperate species? Or are they like some type of "battle droid" - engineered to obey commands without free will/souls.

Metaphysical - yes - I totally agree with your skins on earth theory.

Sunrise - one other thing about Liz's "astral projection" is that she somehow KNEW just where to go. I think this enhances the theory that her "powers" are directly linked to Max.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

sunrise—You are right, at least in my case, it wasn’t something I decided to do. However, if you believe you have the ability and can focus you can do it. Some people (including myself) have used their “third eye” for a particular purpose. I used mine to find a pair of earrings for my sister.

Metaphysicalgirl—I agree that although Kivar wants the Granolith (more power) he also wants to insure his rule. Therefore, he wants Max and the other Royals killed (as is evidenced in MITC).

One last thing...Shapeshifters. Let's discuss.

I, for one, don't think that 'shapeshifters' are necessarily their 'own' race back home on Twilo. I think that the ability to 'shapeshift' is a 'power' that an alien has on our planet...when their essense has not been mixed with human DNA.

In other words, Nacedo is a straight out, 100%, glowing alien, right? None of the others are... Skins - nope, Royal 4 - nope,
ruined leaders of the other 4 planets - nope. So, how do we know that this isn't just something that an alien can do on planet earth? It would make sense that Nacedo, TicTac...whatever, are the same 'race' as the royal 4, but they are 100% alien.

Now, if Max's 'race' can survive on planet earth without the help of a husk or some other alien life form technology...why did they choose to mix the alien essence with the human dna, in order for the royal 4 to be reborn?

Hmmmmmmm

{~}:}
A myther in desperate need of new episodes

I think it's awesome too. Psychic abilities are so interesting and fascinating. Thanks for stepping forth and sharing your stories! You must be an advanced human too - capable of easily accessing your sixth sense! Can you astral project into the offices of TPTB and see what they have in mind for the future? Maybe you can subliminally influence them to come on over to this board and take a look at our ideas! Maybe then they would tie up some of these loose ends for us...

Roxy

Hey Roxy...there is a whole movement called 'Remote Viewing' that is rumored to be used by our government for spying and whatnot, that is based on the theory of people being able to astral project at will.

OK, I know that sounds crazy but type in Remote Viewing into your web browser, and see what you find. It's really interesting stuff!

{~}:}

Okay, I just got this ridiculous thought, and it's pretty implausible but it's fun to think about. When Ava got that look and was talking about if Max brought Liz back, she was changed...what if she was saying this not because it was the act of healing a dying person that changed her but because she somehow knew that the person Max would bring back would have powers? Let's say Liz's shooting was a planned attempted assassination, whether time travel was involved or not. If Ava knew about it, it'd explain the way something clicked as she found out that Max had healed her. Okay, so I don't really buy it, but like I said, it's sure fun to think about.

Also, I think that Kivar and possibly the other aliens back on Twilo do have the technology to do round trip space travel,without the granilith. In CWW diary she states "Even without the Royal 4 we're stuck here until we recover the Granilith. And just to make sure we didn't give up, our trip here was a one way ticket." To me that saying they can or do have a ship that can come to Earth and go back to Twilo, but to make sure the mission was accomplished here on Earth, Kivar made sure there would be no way back.

I love the theories about Max being somewhat like an MLK on Twilo. It makes sense. Though war often stems from someone's need to obtain power, it often stems from race, and religious issues, and people not wanting change, and of course change is something we've heard a lot about these two seasons.

I believe somebody speculated back on one of the previous threads about CWW being married before marrying Mr. Whitaker, well in her diary there's proof that she was. The part is black out, but here's what she says. "At least I know this way he didn't feel any pain, I'm the one who gets to remember the look in his eyes when his own wife killed him." Check out the actual page below, you can read through the black ink.

Now, as for time shifts: Courtney said they live in Pacific, Mountain, Central and Eastern time. We certainly don't understand that but it seemed to me that, whatever it is, they live in time shifts that are close to each other (One hour difference shifts that do not extend more than maybe a sun cycle - or day!). What you are talking about is more than that and I don't think it's possible, mainly because Physics is Physics is Physics is Physics and the Laws of Nature are Universal! They do not change, whether we are in the Milky Way or Whirlwind Galaxy or M-100! We all experience gravity, we all probably share the same chemical elements (give or take a couple), and let's not forget that the same shapes tend to repeat themselves in Nature, so, as much as Sci-Fi is wonderful, you cannot go to far from what we know before it becomes incredible and what is most fun in Roswell is that we believe because it's close to reality. So, please, let's not get farfetched here! Time and space work the same way everywhere! Again, let's think string theory here and the Laws of Relativity! Space bends with relation to Time the same way everywhere in the known Universe!

If we were shocked to hear Galileo say that the world was round and we revolve around the Sun instead of the other way around, it's not because that changed the concept of the Solar System, it's because we were ignorant and didn't know better!

"Basically, we can't apply our laws to their planet because our fundamental scientific laws are different then theirs. Humans can't exists in multiple time subsets...we disappear. So, can we really accurately say what they are capable of in regards to time travel, space travel and such? I don't think so."
Yes, we absolutely, definitely can!

StarBox: "Also - what do you all think the shapeshifters are?? Are they a seperate species? Or are they like some type of "battle droid" - engineered to obey commands without free will/souls."
I think they are probably mercenaries, definitely different species, maybe they live in one of the planets and were colonized, taken over, visited, share space with Max's race and, because of their abilities, travel to the other worlds to protect, fight wars, etc.! On the other hand, since they are so close together, maybe (just as the platypus, kangaroo, etc. evolutionized differently in Australia) they came from the same tree, only that branch went a different way than the branch of the podsters but all of them (and us) have the potential power to shapeshift sometime in the next millenium or two (more like 200 to 300!).

No, shapeshifting is not a power they can acquire because they are on Earth. If so, the Skins would have it. They are pure alien underneath the husks. They cannot live without protection. The SS can! They are either a different species or evolutionized Twilonians... way too evolutionized Twilonians!! Besides, if you say they "acquired shapeshifting abilities", you cannot "acquire" anything in one day, one year, one millenium! It requires millions of years, literally. If they were Twilonians and they came, they would have burned if they remained in their everyday skins!

[b] In Harvest, they referred to Max as the once and FUTURE king. If Khivar is the 'leader' of the skins race, faction, or whatever you want to call it, and got on the throne by killing Max and the Royal 4, it would make a whole ton of sense that if he found out the Royal 4's essences were sent to earth to be reborn -- well, if I were him I sure as hell would send some soldiers down to that little blue ball to make sure they didn't live long enough to come back to Twilo! I think THAT is why the skins are on earth. Not to take over planet Earth -- but to find the Royals and kill them, thus preventing any chance of them getting back to Twilo and re-claiming their rightful positions. Yes? Any takers on this theory? I think we have enough evidence to support that one... {~}:} [/B]

Met - I also think that is why the "Skins" are here - to find the Royal 4, destroy them before they have a chance to return and claim their rightful place (think of some of the countries on Earth that have their formere "royals" living in exile still claiming their "right" to return), and to find the Granolith and return it to Twilo (before its missing becomes known and creates additional problems for Khivar). Also, a reminder - the Skins are only "Skins" on earth. It is like you and me going to Mars and using a special space suit to survive on the planet, and the Martians calling us "Suits" because that is how they got to know us. We would only be "Suits" on Mars, but on Earth we would remain humans. So, the Skins are Twiloians regardless of there Race. They could be from a variety of "races" (I'm NOT talking species here - though even that is possible - look at Star Wars) that have come to Earth to do Khivar's dirty business, and have to have the Skins in order to survive having not been killed and remanufactured into humans using human DNA like the podsters. I think it is very possible that Max was like a MLK or other person from our Earth history who tried to bring social and economic change and died as a result, with Khivar (who might have been a highly placed leader in his own right) responsible for Max/Zan's death and downfall. We often use biblical referrences here - and a perfect analogy is Jesus and the drastic change he preached (for the time) and the betrayal of him that resulted in his death.

Also, I was thinking last night about the whole Tess/Max/Liz thing that came about last year and how I hated it at first, but now - though I think it wasn't handled the best - I like that Max and Liz were forced apart, and have to work their way back to each other. As long as the writers are careful not to degrade their characters (with 90210 tricks), the journey back is interesting and ultimately the more fulfilling. I do think together they are a force to reckon with, but that they have to discover it, and that slowly they are. Ultimately, they will be together and a stronger team/partnership because of what they have gone through and discovered about each other and themselves.

BTW - Bluecornmoon - excellent post! There have been some excellent discussions going on! I wish I wasn't so swamped at work and home so that I could participate more, but ... I will throw in my two cents every now and then just for fun ... and keep the thread alive!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

MLK was a man who wanted to change the circumstances of a particular segment of the population because they were being treated unfairly! He did it by peaceful means. He was extremely charismatic and was killed for his efforts. He developed an even bigger following afterwards and the legend grows!

King Zan: His family was in charge. He was the ruler. He may have been immature and made mistakes but his heart was in the right place! He inherited the Granolith, the one proof that you are the rightful owner of power and the source of untold energy that nobody could use except for himself. While reigning, he may have learned of the plight of his people and may have decided to change it, for the better. He wanted to adopt a more democratic system, where there would not be only an extremely small segment of the population with powers and material possessions, but to extend that privilege to the majority. The PTB, the people with "money", didn't like it a bit and decided to kill him! They got a charismatic leader, K'var, who started a civil war. Because of betrayal from his side, King Zan was killed. It seems he was young when he did.

Now, similarities with MLK:
Zan wanted to change the circumstances of the majority of the population of five planets because they were being treated unfairly! He tried to do it by peaceful means. He was extremely charismatic and was killed for his efforts. He developed an even bigger following afterwards and the legend grows!

hmmmm.......

Since the topic of souls and Liz's healing has been revisited on this thread, I would like to put this out there. I think that the definitive difference between Liz's healing and all the others is the eye contact. Max tells her "You have to look at me". He did not make eye contact with Kyle, and in ARCC he is careful not to make eye contact with the children who woke up, for he told them to go back to sleep. Perhaps Max instinctively knew that he must establish this eye contact with Liz. The eyes are the "windows into our soul" as the saying goes. Max later tells Kyle that he and Liz saw into each other's souls. I think that somehow this is relevant to Max and Liz's connection. Any thoughts??

I also have a few thoughts on the granolith. The top part is obviously cone-shaped, I think that is agreed upon. The part directly underneath the cone is a diamond. If any of you have a round-cut diamond in any jewelry, turn it upside down and you will see that it is the same shape. The facets are along the bottom and the point at the top. The point of the granolith diamond that glows blue also seems the be the same shape as the orb with the whirlwind symbol that Max and Liz found in the desert. I would like to post a pic to illustrate this, but I don't know how! Maybe someone will oblige?

I have some more information on diamonds and thunderbolts, but I am still trying to piece it together as it relates to the granolith. I'll be back later to share when I get it figured out.

BTW, on page 2 of this thread WR gives a link to a site about the Lost Continent of Atlantis (www.atlan.org). This is where I found the info on diamonds and thunderbolts, and there is a ton of other info that can be seen as relevant to Liz and the podsters. For example, another name for Eve is considered to be "the Great Mother" or "AVA"! What does anyone make of this??

Thanks for listening, and if any of this has been brought up before, I apologize.

Also, I was thinking last night about the whole Tess/Max/Liz thing that came about last year and how I hated it at first, but now - though I think it wasn't handled the best - I like that Max and Liz were forced apart, and have to work their way back to each other. As long as the writers are careful not to degrade their characters (with 90210 tricks), the journey back is interesting and ultimately the more fulfilling. I do think together they are a force to reckon with, but that they have to discover it, and that slowly they are. Ultimately, they will be together and a stronger team/partnership because of what they have gone through and discovered about each other and themselves.

[/B]

Zero - I agree with you on this. No relationship is without its problems, and the emotionally tough (and persistent) couples work passed them toward each other. Max and Liz are eternally and irreversibly connected on every level, probably for longer than we realize. Since we know that bond won't break, we really don't have to worry if they will get back together. Rather, it is a matter of when. They do make a helluva team, though, don't they? I can't wait to see what becomes of Liz's powers in the future and how she and Max combine forces and work together.

Gee, Rathsputin pops into mind...

Thought I would take a break from work and check in.

Metaphysicalgirl, you got my mind wandering with your comment about their planet existing in mutiple subset dimensions. In Wipe Out it was the green rod in the billboard that sent the humans into another dimension. Courtney's comment was -quote- Time exists in multiple subset dimensions on our planet. Nicholas must have a technology to impose one or more of these (dimensions) here. Later, Isabel gets herself caught by Nicholas and tries to escape. She tricks Nicholas into removing the handcufts and pretends she is going to kiss him, but instead knocks him down. In the transcrpit it says she reaches for his fanny pack. Huuuuummmmmm Do you think he had another green rod or something in that fanny pack and used it to be in more than one dimension at a time? Or to quickly travel between dimensions? This could be another possible explaination of how he survied Tess's fireball. I still think that even if he did survive using this method, that he has a stash of husks for himself somewhere.

Just a quick thought to put on the table.

It was you....................Max

Zara: Rathsputin..too funny!!!

What about Alexander for Zan/Xan! Avatar for Ava?!!?

Hey Blue! After reading your response to my earlier post I just have to say I love it when I am proven wrong. I completely agree with your argument about Physics and whatnot, and I see how my earlier theory just doesn't ring true. Well done!

But, in my own defense, it did make for some interesting conversation, didn't it?

{~}:}

Also - I find the "4 element" (earth air water and fire) stuff very intriguing. I am beginning to think that the writers brought Tess on with the intent that she would be an evil imposter - then they fell in love with the "four elements + the fifth element" idea and decided to switch gears. Now its just a question of seeing if they can get the audience to warm up to a kinder, gentler, Kyle lovin Tess - if not - they have the option to "expose" and get rid of (kill off) Tess (pleasing the majority of the fans who dislike her character) and then to bring back Ava (and the writers still get their four elements).

BTW - I forget who initially pointed out the CHANGE sign behind Liz in Leving Normal but I forgot to say that I TOTALLY saw it - it MUST have been intentional and I LOVE it, LOVE it, LOVE it. I couldnt find a screencap but my screencap guru (Pam - I bow in your general direction - you ROCK!) is making a custom one for me - it should be in the gallery to the next thread.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Yes...I still find Season-one Tess to be uncomfortably creepy. It is painfully obvious that the writers intended to create a one-dimensional character by slapping an obstacle between Max and Liz, and that is exactly what they did. To this day I can't stand the way Tess conducts herself in Crazy through Destiny. However, someone obviously decided to bring a new light to Tess, to show her human side and make her less obsolete. Though I'm liking the new Tess, let me just say I love Ava and would like nothing more (other than dreamer-related things) than to see her reappear on the show!
The four elements is interesting indeed. There have been plenty of clues along the way that loudly suggest that Tess is not who she appears to be. However, I'm fairly certain she's unaware...As this really has nothing to do with Liz at all, I'm going to cut off my rambling here.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Your four elements reference links with the earlier posts re birthdates and sun signs. Perhaps as we discover the birthdates of all the podsters we will see the connection even more. Max = water (Pisces), Isabel = air (Libra), Tess = earth (Taurus) and Michael = fire (Sagittarius, Leo or Aries). Also if Liz (the fifth element) is Tess' replacement, perhaps she is also an earth sign such as Virgo the virgin? Virgo is also the opposite sign to Pisces!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Kukulkan, the fiery, winged serpent of the Toltecs and Mayas, was both a corn-god and a fish(Pisces). He is the god of reincarntion and resurrection. The Chinese equivalent of the Mayan god is Yu-kiang, a sea-god represented as either a flying dragon (Liz's window), a fish(Pisces) or a human.

Max and the other podsters can be considered to have been resurrected because they died and were brought back to life. Can Liz be considered as being resurrected by Max, or are her changes a type of reincarnation? Thoughts???

Also, it is said on the Atlantis site that the fall of Atlantis was brought about by the marriage of fire and water. Fire was the volcano on the island that erupted, causing the ice that covered most of the earth during the ice age to melt. The melting ice caused the sea level to rise and the water covered Atlantis. Just a little tidbit on the elements, although I was hoping to discover that Tess was a fire sign in order to signify that it was the marriage of Max and Tess that brought about the deaths of the podsters and the ensuing war on Twilo. Oh well!! I will keep searching for some justification that Max belongs with Liz (not that any of us needs any--we just know!)

~Nemo [= Nobody (in Latin)]
Pfft. I also covered the "Fallout Shelter" sign, which gets people excited occasionally, and touched on geodesic domes.
Not to make this sub-thread any more of an Odessey than need be...

Maybe it's something in past history on Twilo. In 285 South, when Max was in the gas station, Liz brought Isabel something to drink and Isabel accidentally knocked into it when she turned around. I don't have my scripts with me right now so I can't quote exactly but Liz tells Isabel that she's not trying to take Max away from her and Liz asks if Isabel would try and take Max away from Liz. Perhaps in their past life the bride tried to get between Vilandra and Zan.