Background

We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, season after season (a little optimism there ), finding “clues” to Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology and other relevant topics – and there are a lot of them! – and then developing theories and potential storylines based on these (often well hidden) clues! Shapeshifter and Qfanny have graciously agreed to set up a single link to the former threads that are available to read (if you have a week or two). You can find it at the following link http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology (but be patient, they will have thread #25 up in good time ) .

The following is a LONG summary (oxymoron?) of some of the clues, thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I have been trying to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled; however, not all clues identified are listed or theories are covered in-depth (remember, I – Zero – am a mere human being with limited human brain capacity, so can only retain so many details).

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings – especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance! We are a friendly – though seriously anal retentive – group! So – dive in, and join the fun!!

Liz is Important – The Liz/Max Connection

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions – or is it time zones? - recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz and felt a special connection to her. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all apparently due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that “connection” irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t let go of the connection. After events in NY, Max seems willing to give their Friendship another try, and in “A Roswell Christmas Carol,” his turning to Liz for help in his time of need, only confirms that even more. As Max says in the end – once Liz has helped him overcome his trial of conscience – he “believes in her!” There is MORE to the Liz/Max connection than just a romantic relationship, as we have always assumed. She is his trusted advisory, his sound of reason, she is the yin to his yang, and she helps him helps him connect to his human side, finding that there is strength in his humanity. BUT - Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions re: that connection have been answered this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Consequence of the Connection – the Change?

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz. We now know from the events in MITC that LIZ WAS CHANGED, and is developing powers, but how come?! How has that change come about? Whether the change in Liz was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Apparently Future Max knew Liz had the potential to “change” since he made the comment that she wasn’t letting it happen, but did he know the true potential of that change and what initiated it or prevented it from occurring? Is Liz’s “change” only a result of Max “bringing her back,” what Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply – or is there something more involved! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squad’s planet (we call Twilo)? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? Could she be the “true bride” – only sent on a different ship to prevent easy discovery, with Tess serving as an unknowing dupe. But if so, and she is part alien, why did she disappear in Wipeout? She did cause the Skin’s shed skin to disintegrate, but that could have other reasons for occurring. Maybe she is purely human, but contains the “true bride’s” essence – but in a different configuration than the Hybrid pod squad?)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” and romanced a predecessor to Liz – but was called back to Twilo, leaving his true love behind.
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz? Could Tess/Ava be a ruse – as mentioned above - to protect the true queen, Liz, from being discovered before she has time to develop her powers that would protect her and her loved ones?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.) However, Liz is Max’s most trusted advisor, and the one most likely to keep him staying the course!
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies, such as the key to operating the Granolith – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her?
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Twilo? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Granolith and the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story? Ava had heard this story foretold during her previous life on Twilo?
· Could it just be Liz's extremely advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the MANY theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special all his human life – and he never connected with Ava the way one would have expected if she was his mate even though they had (we assume) spent their entire life on Earth – in the NYC sewers - together. I guess we will never know unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones (all 5 of them w/ Liz present) – anything is possible? We don’t know what happened to his body!) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her. (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?” [paraphrasing]) Liz looks directly at Max as he gets off the bus, with a sort of recognition. They obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were friends and lab partners more recently. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that we know are all human (according to Harding in WR). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking already – yet dormant – powers existing within her? Ava’s reaction to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle, and all the kids in the hospital? There seems to be more to initiating the “change” than just the healing! Though Kyle may develop his own powers someday, and so could the kids?

Origin of the Connection – Where is Liz from, really?

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins! A few of the common questions raised include:
· Are her parents her “true” birth parents or is Liz adopted like the Evans kids?
· Did Grandma Claudia have a relationship with an alien that passed something on to Liz?
· Does Liz have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race?
· Why does Liz look so much like Sheila Hubble?
· How does all this play into the connection with Max and Liz’s new found “abilities/powers”? (The first known appearing to be astral projection.)
· Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur?

We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) There seems to be many clues that point to this possibility – but nothing definite. We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the Twilo conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. These races could be of common decent, or there could be many variations. We know from White Room that the alien that was studied had a cerebral cortex similar to ours (humans), that did not have a bone structure like ours – thus, the shock that Max did. Could the similarities that the alien had be due to a common ancestor to humans – one that traveled to Earth many years ago either colonizing Earth or intermingling with the humans here. We don’t know for sure that the alien that was studied was a shapeshifter – we just assume it was, but it could have been another alien, different from the shapeshifters, that was on board the ship (or another ship that crashed.) We also know that the Skins (who are NOT Skins on Twilo – only on Earth – so how did Nasedo know what they called themselves?) share powers common to the pod squad whose powers are all human. Does this mean that the beings that are Skins are from the same race of beings that the essences of the podsters are from? Will humans be able to eventually acquire some of these powers?

Rath sarcastically comments about how hard it is to travel through space to Earth – thus the need to possess humans long-distance – but the podsters obviously got here somehow (and fairly quickly if the comments concerning the warring for 50 years is correct - I will explain this if you don’t get what I mean – just ask) – so travel to and from Earth must be possible and not unreasonable. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ Twilo predecessors from long ago? Could Liz and Max have a common ancestor – from long, long ago?

Granolith – How does it fit in?

We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Whitaker and Courtney seemed to think it was a means to their salvation – but why? It is obviously of great importance! Could the Granolith be like a Holy Grail of the V constellation? The Holy Grail was meant to be found by a man with a pure heart who will use it to feed the hungry and heal the sick, and with it will bring peace and happiness to the land. So – whose heart is the purest in Roswell? Could it be Liz? The Granolith could be like Excalibur from the King Arthur tales, to be used as an instrument of the righteous, by a good man for a good cause. So – who fits that description? Max? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? If it is only a transport system, I doubt they would have had such a concerned reaction – so there must be more to the Granolith than that. Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the prophesized protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Liz has yet to see the Granolith. Maybe it will react when she enters it. Maybe Liz holds something within her that is the key to the operation of the Granolith! Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time? Apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way before their discovery? So, many questions – still! … ! The speculation continues!

Destiny – Liz and Max!

Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his original “destiny” on Twilo when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a “human” alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Many posters have wondered “Why?” send the Hybrid pod squad (in duplicate form) to Earth if there wasn’t some benefit. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction. Maybe she had “heard” the prophecy? (I am ignoring the cut scenes that Rooney posted that explained that the Dupe’s shapeshifter had warned that anyone they brought back would be changed, not necessarily for the better, because if it is not aired, it might not be the way the writers/producers have decided to take the show.) Zan’s “searching for someone” that Ava spoke briefly about, also seems to imply that he felt someone special was out there that he was meant to connect with – maybe Liz or Serena – I guess we will never know unless he is “brought back” somehow.

Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the pod squad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are (supposedly) “human” according to Harding. (I’m not going to get into it in this Intro – but the fact that the Skin’s powers are similar to the pod squads’ powers – which are advanced human powers – which are supposed to be similar to the powers they had on Twilo seems to imply that humans must be capable of the these powers someday and have a common ancestor with the Skins and pod squanders in the distant past – Ummm …! ) Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters and her memory retrieval does not seem very complete! (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time!) Though the Dupes do seem to have memories of their past lives – at least Lonnie appears to - we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. Also, are the visions Max’s previous alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone (i.e., Tess, another shapeshifter) or somewhere (i.e., Granolith, Twilo) else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! What else is stored deep within him, and can he get to the point he will be able to freely access and prevent having it MRd out of him?

There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history “destined” to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the small amount of what we know of past podster actions. Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself I MITC - Zan was killed through treachery on Twilo, then New Zan was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max (a Zan Hybrid) survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized, and Max has commented many times: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no?? Maybe they make their own destiny with a little help from their Human Friends.

Follow Your Heart

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons. Grandma Claudia told Liz to promise to always follow her heart wherever it leads her (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again (MITC and ARCC). He has even stated that he believes in Liz, and though this is meant more in a friendly way than a romantic way, it is a sign that Max is following his heart back to her!

Symbolism – Do Not Ignore Anything!

The symbolism throughout the both seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often and everywhere (e.g., Valenti’s front door, Michael’s wallpaper). Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! Liz could be the Trojan Horse in which something of great importance is hidden. There is a prominent picture of a Ship between Max and Maria when they are discussing his love for Liz. The old Scandinavian tale of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his score "The Flying Dutchman," symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love. In desperation the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful. Senta, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears that she will be faithful to the Dutchman unto death. However, in doing so, she betrays her fiancé Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she was trying to save. The Dutchman puts out to sea, but his vessel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned. HOWEVER - the pair are now seen RISING from the now-CALMED waters, TRANSFIGURED and REDEEMED by their SACRIFICE. Salvation is no impossibly idealistic dream, but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. Yvonne “White” was the nurse that disappears in Summer of ’47.

Max lights a “white” pinecone in ARCC. The ancient Greeks and Assyrians viewed the pinecone as a symbol of masculinity because of its phallic shape, and it represented both fertility and immortality. As the emblem of Artemis, it represented feminine purity. It was also the emblem of the Roman goddess Venus. In Christianity, the pinecone forms the crown of the Tree of Life. Because of its swirling form, it is associated with dynamic generative and cosmic power. Here we see Venus is mentioned and also the Tree of Life (remember the women on the reservation told Liz that was what the symbol was on the necklace) also feminine purity seems to play an important role for Liz at this point. (Thanks Evid!) (And this is just the tip of the iceberg!!)

Then there is the Dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. We were in the "year of the dragon." Here are some Dragon “meanings”:
· In the Chinese Horoscope, the Dragon is in the FIFTH ranking order.
· The Dragon's corresponding western sign is ARIES.
· The Dragon’s ruling planet is VENUS.
Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her (unless dragons have been popping up on other characters’ windows?). But since it was the year she discovers that she had “powers,” it is reasonable to think of her as being “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon … as the Dragon. (Thank You Meloudious 1, Starbox and Bluecornmoon, Charmed Kitten for your thoughts on the Dragon!)
Then there is the Arthur C. Clarke book, “Childhood’s End” that is found in _____ (can’t remember the episode – Help?). Following is a summary written by a reader on Amazon – a coincidence? “It is ...in this book the "Overlords" are a mysterious, powerful, but ultimately tragic group of beings that have vastly potent minds, but that cannot undergo the spiritual metamorphosis that would take them into direct communion with the sort of Godhead that directs their (and human) destiny. I liked Clarke's ideas about utopia, which is more or less what the Earth becomes after a few generations under the guidance of the Overlords. He seems to have had a lot of fun playing with ideas about future art forms, for example, among other things. However, this utopian society is doomed, because of an unforeseen, quantum leap in evolution, that turns out to be an evolution of the communal spirit. Clarke has a lot to say here about what connects us to each other, as human beings. Are we all linked with some higher being at the level of spirit, in the manner that islands would be revealed to be all linked, if one were to somehow drain the world's oceans? Or is striving toward a planned, ordered, social utopia, with allowances made for developing all of every individual's gifts to the fullest possible degree, the best way to relate to each other?...” Interesting??

There are lots of other symbols and clues to pick up on! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent and clever for that!

The “Bride” – will the real one please stand up!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? OR could it be referring to Liz who was also standing right there? AND Why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day, and never acknowledged Tess as Max’s mate!) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride with Max in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. (Zan and Ava, who had spent their entire lives together, didn’t seem to be working at producing offspring.) What if Tess was sent to deceive the enemy, and the Real Bride was sent in a separate ship – and somehow the Real Bride’s essence ultimately ended up in Liz.

Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts were needed to defeat the enemy. Maybe Tess is a warrior, led to believe she was the bride, when she really wasn’t. (Bad Boy Harding!!) And why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? Since their shapeshifter seemed to teach them so much, wouldn’t they have known the importance of keeping the unit together? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection previously or at the same time? They never mention seeing a Mom’ogram.) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was the Mom’ogram pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is Twilo still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?) housing the heads of the allied forces?

The Books – Doesn’t anyone read these things?

Concerns similar those raised about the Mom’ogram have been raised about the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? Did the Dupes receive a similar book? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the pod squad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Why does Max have writing on his forehead, but no one else does?

Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there is any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!) READ THE BOOKS! READ THE FILES! ASK MORE QUESTIONS!

The Catalyst – Liz!

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are re-watched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, connecting with Max to save his life in NY and coming up with the idea that helps Max restore his balance in ARCC.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan. (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max “fall out of love with her.”)

Vision Quest – How does Liz fit in?

Liz could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we now know is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment. (Who knows who and what to believe on this one??) Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” or complement Max, and bring him into “balance”? Max seems to believe that Liz is his voice of reason, and knows him better than anyone else – even Iz! (We learn this from the JK and JB commentary on ARCC.) Could Liz possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence (combined with her connection with Max) mean that she has the potential to obtain more of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection, at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing, and how the visions play into the powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “projected” visions from Tess to get Iz’s attention for help). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps!) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions from Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just “now” being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifters, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? The vision seems similar to that Liz gets in SH when she “sees” the orb being buried. Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Could his blurred vision be the result of testing he was subjected to, and the tic tacs pills that he takes to maintain his “balance”?

[/b]Time Travel – “Run, Lola, Run”[/b]

Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has it come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run” – which was mentioned in Surprise as the story of Liz’s life? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully due to the premature cementing, and the third being the path we are on now!) Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos? OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has from FM concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY, and that warning prevented him from turning it over to the other aliens - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max in particular!) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug Max – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed! Does he really “know” as Kyle seems to think Max always does?

Hero Journey – Liz’s Path

I want to add something about Liz’s hero journey here, but I’m still working on it. So it will have to wait – but trust me – Liz’s appears to be taking that journey!

Grandma Claudia – the first connection?

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her new and married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Perhaps GC helped them when she was younger, and they entrusted valuable information with her just as with River Dog. Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Norma Bates & Tasyfa contributed these thoughts! Soulmates are usually described as people being very alike in feelings and motivation. They work very well together for common goals. They have a connection of purpose and a similarity in thinking. Their skills complement each others so that together they accomplish more and are stronger/better than if they worked individually toward the same goal. But soulmates aren’t necessarily a permanent connection and they could be with several people. However, Lifebonds take "soulmate" one step further. Lifebonds are usually found in telepathic sci-fi (Kathy Tyers' "Firebird" for example) and fantasy genres. Before they can be lifebonded, they must be soulmates first. They are linked together mentally, emotionally and constantly. Lifebonds in fiction are rare and not taken lightly. They are a permanent one on one connection…till death do they part. The creation of a lifebond is a matter of choice. It doesn’t just happen. Authors sometimes use the theory that if a pair decides to lifebond, they spend some time apart first, to strengthen and stretch the bond (to change the bond) and to contemplate on their choice. Both must agree and be fully committed to each other. There is no divorce option except death. Once that is done, the 2 open their connections to each other, mind and soul, to the fullest extent and then “cement” their relationship, making the bond permanent.

The drawbacks to life bonding includes:
· If they are separated from each other, they feel incomplete, not whole.
· Long term separation can lead to mental instability or insanity because one balances the other’s strengths and weaknesses emotionally and physically.
· If one of a bonded pair dies, it can cause a deep depression to the point of suicide. The remaining survivor has trouble adapting and balancing themselves.

Some things that lifebonds aren’t:
· They are not mind reading skills. They send strong impressions or emotions. Right now, if Max and Liz were lifebonded, he would know she was lying but not why unless she told him.
· They are still separate people capable of misunderstandings.
· Lifebonds cause a lot of stress and misunderstanding because they are so close emotionally, they forget to communicate verbally.
· Having secrets between a lifebonded pair causes a lot of frustration and pain between them.

Could what FM is talking about in TEOTW be a hint that, not knowing what they were doing, Liz and Max became life bonded too soon? Liz wasn’t going to change or be able to lifebond to Max without first making a decision that she wanted to go ahead with the relationship. From Destiny until TEOTW she kept herself apart and tried to withdraw, but after seeing Madame Vivian she changed her mind and decided to take a chance…to start changing. Perhaps FM found out that Liz would develop her own powers if they hadn't become lifebonded and solidified the links so early. FM coming back and keeping her separated allowed the connections to grow stronger. Liz needed time to stretch the links, to change both physically and mentally, and taking Isabel's hand in MITC was only the first step of finding out whom she really is and what she can do.

Sheila Hubble – Eerie resemblance to Liz! – What’s the connection?

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the pod squad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with while in Florida?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. So, there is a connection to Liz. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Do you think the writers will introduce a character from Florida named Chad? Ummmmm?

Venus – Liz’s connection to the stars!

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Numbers – It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! TEOTW occurs in 2014! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates? Next time you watch ARCC, notice the house addresses for Brody and the Ghost’s family, and it’s the 23rd Annual celebration. They all add up to 5!

Cave Map Symbols – All signs lead to Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Skins – What lies below the surface?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the pod squad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seemed to be confined to their husks, but they could be from the same race as the pod squad’s alien predecessors. Many of us think that the pod squad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without being noticed? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? How did the Skins – Nicko - find the Dupes? And could some of these earlier alien visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race or groups of aliens on Earth ? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Shapeshifters – Are there more than one?

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same. Maybe Tic Tac was the Dupes’ shapeshifter who came back to Roswell.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Recently with the discovery of Liz’s change, many have wondered why Harding didn’t know about the change and mention it. Especially after reading the cut scenes from MITC. If Ava knew, Harding should have known and mentioned it. Of course, there are the long lingering questions like: Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions, and his apparent failure to divulge information about Liz and the podsters’ origins. Was his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee”? And what did he do for all those years before Tess hatched? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Again, why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? Why did Harding have such a large collection of antiques, which he was so sensitive about? Had he been around when they were original manufactured – years ago? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Odds and Ends

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection. And who could miss Max grabbing Liz’s hand at mid-night mass and telling Liz, “I believe in you!” in ARCC!

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Dates

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across – PM me if you have one. I have added dates from the Crashdown Timeline and the Whitaker Diaries, but they are questionable, and have no basis in episodes aired, so take them with a grain of salt.

1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
5/7/1983 – Tess’s birthday (Tess, Lies and Videotapes)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1990 – Maria’s Dad leaves (Sexual Healing)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
11/11/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex wind up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max & Liz share their first kiss (Heatwave)
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/5/2000 – Rare alignment of Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Earth’s Moon and the Sun (4everyoung)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed Harding, the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday (Surprise)
12/23/2000 – Max heals kids in Hospital (ARCC)
12/24/2000 – Max attends Midnight Services, expressing his Belief in Liz (ARCC)
2014 – Minutes before the destruction of Earth, Future Liz Convinces Future Max to go back in time and convince Liz to deceive Max into “falling out of love with her” – thus, changing the future (TEOTW)

In Summary

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome.

OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

been thinking about what FM said in EOTW - he said HE had fought a thousand battles... NOT 'THEY' had fought - if Max hadn't gone to NY and Ava hadn't been in Roswell, Liz may never have found out she had powers of any kind...so the Future Liz may have only been able to be Max's soulmate, but not his fighting companion. We know he would always protect her, but what if their being together now has changed because it would be THEM fighting together....

Liz and Max with the "V" pattern holding hands:

Liz as Venus:

Liz and Max as twin souls - notice how they come together to form the
"swirl" on the orb activated during Sexual Healing. Also - notice the
"Emergency" sign behind them - when they come to gether it reads "MERGE".
The animation is from the alternate ending to Leaving Normal and is
complimets of RedHawk (THANKS!!) Also posted is a screencap of the aired ending of Leaving Normal - here you can see a variation of the orb swirl as well.

Liz as the keeper of/key to the granolith:
Picture of the granolith chamber in the crashdown:

Liz with the word "CHANGE" behind her - from Leaving Normal. I think the theme of Liz's "emergence" is central to Roswell - Think of Future Max's line that Liz needed to let herself change.

Sheila Hubble:

Liz as the Virgin Mary/key to Salvation:

The dragon on Liz's window:

Liz as the Trojan Horse (she was avoiding Maria in the Pilot and ate lunch
with Mary TROY). Horses have shown up alot in pictures, etc but here is the
horse that ran in front of Max's jeep in Blood Brothers:


Liz as the Tree of Life and EAGLE imagery - see the tree mural on the wall -
and also the EAGLE figure on the table.

The "destiny" book with the name "LIZ" backwards next to what looks like the
granolith sideways:

Liz and the cave "map" - note the granolith-like symbols near her neck and towards the top.

Liz and the Childhoods End book:

Images thanks to crashdown, shapeshifter, redhawk and a HUGE thanks to
www.theddd.com who are kind enough to supply custom screencaps for our gallery.
THANKS!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Long story short - the power of two, I believe will be vitally important in their future (not just romantically but politically, etc.)

First some housekeeping duties!

Zero! Great opening! I love it. I meant to saw so on thread #25 but never got around to it.

4everyoung I think what I posted at the bottom of page 8 on Thread #25 was a bit harsh. When I read it a few minutes ago I realize that I came across calling you small minded. I didn't mean this at all. Pleeeze forgive me. I just wanted to point out that there is a difference between race and species.

StarBoxI keep reading your plea for visions of Liz, but the only vision of Liz I have in the script is the one Max has... Think Barbie & Ken. Hey that sounds like a new theory... The Barbie and Ken Theory.

RedhawkIf you are lurking I visited your web site. It's awesome, (for lack of a better word, truly wonderful). I also sent you an email. I hope you'll be able to find the time to break away from all of your artwork and read it. Fantastic!

FROM THE SCRIPT SEXUAL HEALING
quote:locker room confrontation

*Liz turns back for the locker room. Empty now. Except -- MAX is there. For real. He's at her locker, sort of examining it.

Liz: "Oh, my God."
Max: "Liz" (startled, not expecting her)
Liz: "Is this something you and Maria cooked up?"
Max: "Maria" (huh?)
Liz: "What are you doing here?"
Max: "I just -- I wanted to see you." (flustered)
Liz: "Here?"
Max: "I had to know if something was real."
Liz: "If what was real?"

**Max takes a breath and goes for it. With a gesture, he changes the lighting. Just exactly as he did it in Liz's fantasy. He looks at her. She's dumbfounded.

Max: "Just like you've seen things... I've seen things. And, one of those things....
Liz: "You saw my fantasy?" (mortified)
Max: "I had to know if what I saw was readlly from you -- or if it was just my imagination. Which it definitely could have been..."

**Liz is still speechless, so he just babbles on, as if this is going to make it okay.

Max: "....except I've never been in the girls locker room. So, now that I see this room -- and it's the same room --- I know I didn't make it up."

**Liz has just been lloking at him, too embarrassed to speak. Finally:**

Liz: "This is so horrible."

**She turns from him.**

Max: "No. Liz. It's incredible, really."
Liz: "You can't just go around invading people's..."

**She walks away. He follows.**

Max: "Wait. Please, listen. Because I didn't just see what you saw. I felt what you felt. When you saw -- me. (she stops) And I never thought anyone could ever fell that way about me.

**Liz turns to him, moved. Despite herself.**

Max: "I thought it was impossible. That there'd be some deep-down horror. In anyone normal. Who knew what I really was."
Liz: "Oh, Max."
Max: "And, you don't feel that way. I really know that now. Because -- this is the locker I saw. And what I felt, those were your feelings. And there wasn't any horror in it. Anywhere. (looks at here, he blew it) Except now, I mean. I'm sorry."
Liz: "Max, couldn't you tell how I felt from the things I said? Or, did?"
Max: "People don't always say the whole truth. They hide things."

**SOUNDS. SOMEONE'S COMING. Max and Liz have to hide. Fast. They look for a place. They duck into the showers. In a small stall. The person who's there walks around, makes noises. Max looks over at Liz now and sees what Maria saw.**

Max: "Um, Liz, you have a hickey. And, it's glowing. Sorry."

**Max indicates that Liz should look at her reflection in the shower fixture. He touches her, to steady her, and she turns, Liz has a major

FLASH:

Series of impressionistic images. We catch glimpses of US soldiers circa 1947 heading toward us. We move through the brush fast, as if running away from the soldiers. We hear a distinctive sound, a STACCATO BEEP. Before she can see more details, the flash ends. Interrupted by:**

Gym Teacher (O.S.): "Okay, I'm coming right up."

This is one of my favorite dialogs in the entire series! I think its better how it was originally intended. Although it doesn't offer a lot of information, I find it interesting that Liz's flash seems more like she was able to possess the person moving the orb than actually viewing past movements. It's as if she can do the alien possession thing like Larek can. Of course, she jumps from the person caring the orb to the orb itself because we see it being buried from the orb's perspective. What do you think? Do you want more tomorrow?

Again to Tess' birthday! Please refer to Michael checking her info in the Records Room in TLV. Mother: Sheila (huh?). Birthdate: March 7, 1983. I know. My birthday is March 8th! Unfortunately, I've been upset about this since TLV! Sorry! Pisces! BTW, I like diamonds!

And thatks for the shower scene! This was one of my very favorite exchanges last season:
Liz: "You saw my fantasy?" (mortified)
Max: "I had to know if what I saw was readlly from you -- or if it was just my imagination. Which it definitely could have been..."

And I agree - the scene was better as originally written.
Okay - I am off - to watch Sexual Healing for real! I was TRYING to go in order but I just cant wait any longer!!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
**Hoping she isnt one of the "elders" :-)**

No. I don't think there is anything here that indicates that... But I like the somewhat parrallel that when Max and Liz go to hide in the girls locker room the next vision Liz gets is of the orb hiding. I think it could relate to Nemo's ideas of missed rendezvous, but I don't know if I could explain what I feel...

I think the reason why CW took Tess is because she knew that one of them, may come after her. Maybe she thought Max would but Tess trusted Isabel more????

Also, what if Tess and Max got married, but Liz was the true love??? Maybe she was the keeper of the granolite, or his playmate or childhood friend, and maybe she became his confidant, or maybe that's what she was all of the time and they loved each other but never spoke of it or seriously gave into those kind of actions.

But maybe when something happened, or when they needed to protect each other, they did and that made the other "people" angry about that.

Maybe KiVar is Liz's brother or something, or maybe Tess's. Maybe KiVar lied to Liz and said that she would protect him and he killed him.

Or maybe instead of a cementing episode like the dreamers want, they can hold off on reuniting Liz/Max as a romantic couple and slowly put them together as a power couple!!! Have it where at the end Nicky finds out about Liz and they kidnap her, then they can hopefully bring Ava back and maybe she can help Liz?? Any thoughts??

I just think that they can include Liz/Max and sci-fi if they treat them more like the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew. Throw some people and situitions in there where Liz and Max are forced to become either jeolous of the new parterns, or extremely protective.

And maybe they can find some more dirt on CW and make Tess or Kyle a bad girl?bad boy? Strike up a deal with the dark side???

[/B]

Well - after watching I dont really think she was playing bride either - I am just grasping at staws to make it LESS CREEPY. Its not as bad as the Barbie thing but it is still suggestive in a not-so-good way.

As for Nemo's suggestion about the rendezvous-actually - that would be a very cool homage to Romeo and Juliet. Romeo and Juliet stands out in Shakespeare's cannon because of its extensive use of back to back parallel/contrasting scenes. So - for the writers to purposefully employ this technique in Roswell would certianly be plausable.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Not to constently question you bluecornmoon, but which is right? The date in Zero's timeline or the date you're telling us. Honestly, I'm hoping Zero's cause Tess really fits the profile of the bull and I've been trying to look up symbolizim for it and compare it with horses. Could someone let me know? Thanks.

AvaSpeaks Liz or Tess being Kivar's sister? A possibility. It would be interesting if Liz was in love with Zan and Kivar promised to spare Zan's life if Liz would leave Zan but in the end Kivar betrays Liz and kills Zan anyways and takes over the throne. If Tess was Kivar's sister, Zan might of promised to marry Tess though he was in love with another person (LIZ), everything is set to go but when Tess finds that Zan is in love with another she commits suicide, Kivar pissed off kills Zan and takes over Twilo. Okay I think my imagination has gone over board.

The idea of what shapeshifters are: Obviously they are very different from the skins but do you guys think shapeshifters are the same race as the podsters without the human DNA? Are Podsters shapeshifters but because of there mix with the human DNA the Podsters can't shapeshift? When the Momogram went off it said "I take this form because it would be familiar to you" Why did she say that? Would she have looked different it she had taken the actual form that existed in Twilo? Nasaedo did say that the Podsters are capable of doing everything the humans can do and more. Is this due to their Alien DNA or just that the Podsters are not shapeshifters but actually advanced humans. Which one is it?

As for the healings, can Max only heal his own kind or race? He obviously can heal humans, possibly shapeshifters (unless tampered by the SKINS), but could he have healed Courtney?
Just a thought....

I just wanted to briefly comment on the ideas brought forth from SH first on the version that was shown to us on television, my take on Max seeing the flashes of Liz was just what Liz was talking about at the beginning of the episode(this is why I miss these voiceovers and journal entries so much-they offer insight into the characters thoughts that we don't always get otherwise). Liz talks about feeling her body changing but part of her wants to remain mom's little girl---which I think is why Max sees these flashes from Liz probably childhood memories of hers that she is still holding on to? I don't know that was always my take on it.
As for this Barbie and Ken well I really don't know, I am glad they cut it LOL.

Qfanny - I was afraid I had offended you or maybe others. All has been forgiven. BTW - loved the script - MORE PLEASE...

Hi BlueCornMoon
Diamonds! Huh!! March 7

Aldebaran I like that thought about the Power of Two.... Max learning more and more about his powers and now Liz learning that she has powers. Plus it does seem that her powers are connected to her relationship with Max and him being her soulmate. They become a power to watch out for.

Someone (I can't remember who -sorry) mentioned that they thought that Liz was the one who would be able to see the evil within and I know that it has been speculated before, but it really seems more plausable now. Anyone else ???

There are some really great ideas being bounced around. I'm gonna have to ponder some of these and see where they lead.

We create our own destiny.........Max/FMax

************
EXT. FRAZIER WOODS - CAMPGROUND - NIGHT

JEFF
What're you hiding, Max? What kind of power do you got over these poor guys that makes them do exactly what you want them to do?

By the way Jeff looks at him, Max realizes this is not just about poker, either.

MAX
No secrets.
(beat)
Just luck of the draw, I guess.

JEFF
Call. Full house, jacks and eights.
*************
Sorry if this has already been posted/discussed.

I just noticed some of the symbols that have been popular topics of discussion lately on this thread...

1. Star of David/6 point star -all over Valenti and the deputy-logos on shoulders/arms and badge is of that shape.

2. Right before Valenti pulls Max, Iz, and Michael over in the jeep, Max says "I couldn't just let her die". As he says this, we see a white picket fence in the background.

3. It was 5 dollars to enter the festival.

4. At the crash festival, after Maria says to Iz that not destroying the car is the key to her and her mom's relationship there is a shot of Liz. In the background and above her, the word PROTECT is lit up in red.

No new theories from me right now. I just wanted to share some observations. Hopefully I got lucky and found at least one new thing noone else has mentioned...

Sarah

metaphysicalgrl thanx for the post on Remote Viewing, I'll check it out tomorrow

Dayneen Kool, u figured out the blacked out part in CW's diary. I tried to do the same, but it gave me a headache every time I tried. I think it's interesting that CW had a first husband, but I'm wondering if it was a fellow skin or a human if it was a human, I can see why the need to kill him= no trail. But if it was a skin, then why kill him? It'd be interesting to know if he was indeed human cuz on that level, she and Max had something in common- loving a human

moon maiden mud interesting about the birthdays reflecting our gang. For some reason I'm thinking Liz's b-day is something in Feb. or March but I think that's speculation I read, I don't think we have gotten any solid info on that.

about SS, I'm thinking it's a rare twilonian ability that some aliens are born with. Like us humans, some are born with gift of ESP or being a prodigy, it doesn't make them a different 'race' or 'species' or whatever you wanna call it

that's all for now
c u tomorrow

Roxy

Again to Tess' birthday! Please refer to Michael checking her info in the Records Room in TLV. Mother: Sheila (huh?). Birthdate: March 7, 1983. I know. My birthday is March 8th! Unfortunately, I've been upset about this since TLV! Sorry! Pisces! BTW, I like diamonds!

BCM - Tess' transcript looked to me like May (a 5), not March (a 3) when I jog shuttled it. That is why I posted it that way in the Intro - but I may have not seen it clearly?? If anyone has an absolutely clear view of what the month was let me know. I'm going to leave it as May (which makes more sense that she would be a few months later than Max), but I'm willing to list it as both - there are lots of questions with respect to the dates anyways.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Once again, I forgot to thank/compliment Zero on the summary. My apologies!

I have been thinking that so much has changed, now instead of the four of them, there is the possibility of 6. (I forgot, now we also have all the children from the hospital too, once they grow up.) I would really like to see a little more of Liz's limitations, at least as far as her new powers go. They can't leave it too open as the others have their own specialities.

~Christy

I do LOVE the Pilot. I've seen new spins on the story every time I've rewatched it! Who knew it was the beginning of such a great story?! Well, I guess we knew by the end of the first scene... Anyway, it was a wonderful beginning!

5)someone (sorry I forget who) asked if Max could heal Courtney...I think he probably couldn't bc it was the husk that was dying, wasn't it? but then that raises the question as to how the skins survived the atmosphere the day they arrived? i read in CW's journal that it wasn't until the next day that they got into the skins....SOO, why didn't Courtney just bide her time without a husk? wouldn't that be better than death?

off to my thoughts and more lurking...later all!
Scully

On that note of maybe Tess being Max's sister I'm loving that idea , but I dunno because wouldn't Tess whave been lying to Max that one time he walked her back home and she told him that she remembered a time when [other life Max] DID love her ...unless she meant in a brotherly way?!?! But thats not the impression I got by the way affectionate way she touched him when she said that, though I could be totally wrong. Now I wanna go back to look at that shot and see the way she touched him when she said that. We definately know after the Lonnie/Isabel thing that it was not Tess who was Vilondra? Unless,Tess had been possessing Lonnie all those times--which seems highly unlikely...ok I'm confussing myself now. I have to check out that shot to see what type of contact Tess gave Max...
Would definately be a very cool plot twist if it was true...I keep saying she's not that evil we just don't like her cause she's supposed to be Max's soulmate. I wonder if everybody is gonna love Tess if ends up being she's Max's sis...

Wait a sec, I've been rethinking this out It doesn't even matter if Tess said it in a sisterly way because isn't it normal of alien heritage to marry off their royalty siblings? I know it sound upsurd but didn't Cleopatra marry her brother? A bunch of others in Egyptian history atleast got married to their cousin or brother/sister. I think that was very common back in the day of atleast those civilizations to have their kids married off to each other to ensure the throne,etc. I think even the Romans took to the idea for a while. So it wouldn't surprise me they sent down our podsters in brother/sister mating pairs as well...not only that but it makes a LOT of sense that Tess is Max's sister. That would explain why Lonnie didn't think twice when she told Michael's dupe to kill Zan. Obviously that explains why the only one upset was Tess's dupe. Is this making any sense ? Not to mention that might be why none of the podsters are attracted to each other... if that is the case those NYC dupes really where bad ...

Responses -
GraceKel - the fact that Liz was thinking about staying her mom's little girl makes alot of sense to me. I am still bothered by the sexual tone of the childhood flashes though - and of the BLATANT sexual images in the cut scene.
Shapeshifter - great insight on the possibility of Max/Tess being siblings.
Sarah - wonderful "clue" pick-ups - see THIS is what I mean by us not picking up everything - each time you watch an episode you see something new.
BlueCornMoon/Zero - about Tess's birthday - it could always be that Tess HARDING had a different birthday. Remember - the kids checked out Mr. Harding's background and it cleared - which means either Harding was ALWAYS Nasedo's "alter ego" - or he had assumed someone elses identity (a la Pierce).
One thing bothering me is the fact that we also see Pierce assume the "deputies" identity and it checks out in the same way. So is the ability to assume an identity - complete with references and background checks a FBI thing - or is it a shapeshifter thing???? Or both??

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

1) At the end of SH you see Max and Liz with a sign that says "REPAIR" in red neon. I think this may have been mentioned before.

2)There is a psoter that was in Topolsky's office and was featured in all of her office scenes - after she left they moved the thing to one of the school hallways and you can see it ALOT of shots. I think the fact that they moved the thing to keep showing it means it is important. The whole sign says - "You cant choose your circumstances but YOU CAN CHOOSE to overcome them". I think that the YOU CAN CHOOSE (which is written in all large letters ) is especially significant in terms of the destiny "Mandate" the kids get. One of the many shots of the sign:

3) In Toy House Michael is seen in the Eraser Room with a siagn that says "TWIN".

4) There is no foursquare symbol in the visions in Balance or Into the Woods.

5) Max has a statue that looks like the tower from SH on his desk in Toy House.

6) In Toy House Isabel mentions that Max is listening to the Counting Crows and always does so when he is upset. I believe she mentions the Counting Crows again in Blind Date. So - I looked up Crows in my symbolism book.
In almost all Native American mythology the Raven/Crow is connotated with the "supreme being of the sky" and in many it is the central divine figure (creator)
In Japan the Raven is associated with the sun and the sun God. It is the "yang" that gives life to the sun.
In Ancient Greece - it was a solar bird sacred to Apollo (again - the sun god).
The Mayan God of thunder and lightning was a raven.
Finally "Ravens may be regarded as symbols of solitude, or rather the DELIBERATE self-isolation of the individual determinded to live on a higher level"
(Max definately listens to the Counting Crows in times of deliberate self-isolation)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Qfanny, thanks for the scripts - the locker room one is better than what was actually shot, I think. Max's comments on how he thought people thought of him were really interesting. I think if I had seen that version I might have understood better/been reminded of the risk factor involved in loving an alien.

The song STRANDED keeps running through my mind. I'm sure Liz had fears that if she loved Max she might be left behind at some time. BIG SCARY RISK for her, and one that doesn't lessen until (imo) she begins to realize the changes she's undergoing in MITC.
The dialog you shared with us from the SH script emphasized that aspect of the story for me.

Thanks for sharing it!

Thesis: There are THREE types of "flashes" - alien/shapeshifter/alien flashes, alien/human flashes and then LIZ's flashes (which are totally unique and may be a part of her "powers")

1) All of the aliens get flashes when they kiss ( "or connect with" - as Max says in the Pilot) a human. These flashes are full of human emotion and are usually of the person's childhood/and/or sexual fantasies. Isabel tells Alex that hse didnt get any flashes "relevant to the current crisis" when they kiss - and Michael gets flashes of Maria as a child. Therefore - Max's flashes of Liz are not unique.

2) Aliens also get different vision-like "flashes" of symbols and alien images from connecting with each other. We see this between Michael and Isabel in the dream sequences (it could also be what Rath and Lonnie are talking about when they comment of "alien sex - accept no substitutes"). We see this type of flash when Micheal heals Riverdog (whom I think was actually a shapeshifter at this point). Also when Max and Tess connect.

3) The flashes Liz recieves are totally unique. Her flashes are significant and reveal knowledge otherwise hidden (even from whoever she is "flashing" on) The fact that she can now have a flash with just a touch may very well point to her being able to see "the evil within".
So - WHY does she recieve this type of flash?
If it has to do with her healing - we need to see if KYLE recieves flashes when (if- but who are we kidding :-) - I sense sexual TENSION in all the eppys JK writes) he kisses Tess.
I do NOT think it has anything to do with the reverse connection - the flashes from the reverse connection were like Liz "borrowing" Max's powers - the type of flash she had was the type of flash the aliens have when they connect with humans - she saw Max's childhood and felt his feelings.
This "reverse conection" flash is not related to the flashes that LIZ can have. HER flashes are not of feelings and childhood (she was suprised and ebarassed in SH that Max could "see" how she felt about him).
Liz's flashes are ALSO not like the alien/alien flashes (hey QFanny :-) - however they are (as JK puts it in his commentary) "alien in nature".

Conclusions? It is POSSIBLE that Liz's "flashes" are a result of her healing. The test for that will be to see what happens to Kyle. I dont think they have anything to do with the reverse connection. HOWEVER - they could very well be connected to the movement of the planets + Liz's sexual "awakening"/"evolvement" and if so - connect her to being either the trojan horse (alien "essence" in human (not hybrid) form or the "choosen one - prophesied one". Either way - they are (at this point at least) unique to Liz.
Thinking more on this - I believe that it is MOST likely that Liz's flashes are linked to her evolvement and the movement of the planets. The fact that she did NOT have flashes during Heatwave seems to be significant - since it was post-healing. If it was the fact that she was healed that caused her to have flashes - she should have had one then.

Also - I DO think that the fact that the time between Sexual Healing and the TEOTW is the same as the orbit oif Venus IS significant. I find it odd that they would flash the date of the episode TWICE on screen unless it were significant.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Interesting theory about flashes! It will be interesting to see what happens with Kyle, I agree. There's so much there waiting for us!

I'm also intrigued by his interest in Buddhism since his healing. With the Buddhist concepts of life as a circle rather than a line, and Kyle's interest in opening his mind to the universe as it were, it will be very interesting to see what his gifts, if he has them, turn out to be. (awk sentence, but i'm in a hurry - off to work) Good day, all!

shapeshifter - I think that Tess is Tess whomever that might be. Lonnie remembered being Vilandra, therefore I think Isabel is Vilandra unless when the Dupes and the Royals were cloned, they left the dupes how they originally were on Twilo and mixed up the Royal 4. Making Isabel the bride, Michael second n command, Tess the warrior, and Max the king, but this still doesn't seem to fit. Like someone mentioned earlier in AN Tess claimed she remembered Max loving her and it didn't seem like she remembered that love as being brotherly especially the way she touched his face so affectioniately. Max had to nicely remove it and tell her he didn't remember You know originally Tess was slated to be Michael's sister, but that idea was scrapped: If the writer's would've kept that storyline, Tess could've easily been written as Vilandra the sister that betrayed her race. And maybe she still did betray her race, by becoming engaged to Zan. Also, if she were Michael's sister this would support the theories about Zan & Lonnie marrying out of their race to help bridge the gap and create peace amongst them all. This storyline still is plausible.

roswelldiva - I like your idea, but I think the fact that Vilandra betrayed Zan in the past made it not surprising that Lonnie/Vilandra would betray him here on Earth. Also, the dupes seemed to know alot more about themselves and I would think they would've known if their essences where switched. Throughout MTD & MITC Lonnie called Zan and even Max her brother. Ava also referred to Zan as Lonnie's brother. Therefore, I think that Lonnie was Zan's sister, but she was also Vilandra the betrayer.

Metaphysicalgrl Despite the laws of physics, I still believe your theory has merit. I believe that anything is possible on Twilo.

Btw, I received my Roswell calendar yesterday, and I see the picture everyone's been talking about that has the V constellation on Liz's chest. This is certainly not an accident

4. At the crash festival...there is a shot of Liz. In the background and above her, the word PROTECT is lit up in red....

No new theories from me right now. I just wanted to share some observations. Hopefully I got lucky and found at least one new thing.... Thanks, Sarah. You did find some that I hadn't seen despite much watching. Let me add a little to this one though:

The rest of the sign behind Liz said Protect Planet Earth. Liz is in the costume of Sigourney Weaver's character from "Alien Resurrection"....

Come to think of it, that was Alien 4....

Also, Maximus did not love the sister, he had a wife and son who were murdered by the evil brother. His wife was his true love.

fallen princess Thanks for your answer regarding the SS and the Podsters.

So do the podsters have advanced human powers because they are mixed with alien DNA? So if that is the case, since Liz has all these powers could she have had some alien essence or DNA all along?

starbox Love you summary on the flashes. I have to agree with you and 4everyoung regarding the importance of Liz seeing evil within. This seems like such an important part of the podsters and their objective on this earth.To see the evil within and combat their enemies so that they can go home.

The healing did cause some change in Kyle but not like Liz. His change could simply be due to a new respect for life after his near death experience. But what bothers me now is what AVA said about their protectors not wanting Zan to bring anyone back or it will change them forever, as if it was a bad thing. Did Zan try to save a human in his past life and did something happen or did the protector not want history to repeat itself? The podsters' alien memories were erased for a reason but why? Why do the dupes know so much more, is it the fact that they are defects and that they were not able to develop the human qualities that is
needed to save earth and Twilo? Why are the human traits so important? What is it about us that make us so important?

Metaphysicalgrl You said something really interesting about SOULS on thread #25
About how Nasaedo might not have a soul and this is why Liz got the flashes that she got, and whether the Dupes had souls or not. That sounds really important. If the podsters are shapeshifters without souls could the reason why they were mixed with human DNA was to gain souls? Does this make any sense? I'm getting really confused If any of you have any good info on souls and what they are all about please share your knowledge with me.

When God created earth weren't Adam and Eve the only thing he actually handmade with the clay of the earth in the image of God and not by saying "Let there be light or land or water?" Are humans the only beings with souls? Isn't this the reason why we can be resurrected with the second coming of Christ? Our bodies will turn to dust but the souls will be risen and have eternal life with God in heaven or Satan in hell? I think there are other versions of this but this is what I remember from bible school.

In the dictionary: It states the soul is the spiritual part of a person, regarded as the centre of personality, intellect, will and emotions: believed by many to survive the body after death. soulless Lacking human qualities, mechanical, person lacking in sensitivity or emotion. It sure does sound like Lonnie and Rath. But what about Zan and Ava?

Could the aliens be seeking eternal life? Like the Pharaohs of Egypt? Could the granolith be tied in with this as well? When Courtney said the Granolith could save her did she mean it will help her go back to her world where the environment isn't so hostile or did she mean gaining of a soul to give her eternal life? This is a topic on it's own regarding life after death but my knowledge is quite lacking in this area so if the experts could pick away at it that would be great.

1. They were literally made (engineered) to be together for some reason.

2. They were forced to be together on Twilo because of an arranged marriage. This is what I believe. Betrothal for political reasons is a tradition in monarchies. Vilondra was betrothed to Rath, so I think it would not be unreasonable to assume that Zan and Ava were also betrothed. Some royal marriages were even arranged before birth. Tess's "adoring follower" attitude toward Max reminds me of the movie Coming To America where Eddie Murphy's intended wife was raised to worship him. He wouldn't marry her because he didn't love her, so he disguised himself and went to America to find a wife that loved him for who he really was--not because he was royalty, or because she was forced to due to an arrangement. The flashes in SH relate here--Max knows that Liz loves him, no matter what or who he is. Max is also disguised royalty in another land.

3. Nasedo/Evil Max could have been trying to use the Earth saying "they were made for each other" and just screwed it up, but I don't think this is the case.

Whatever his reason for saying this was, he seemed to be trying awfully hard to convince Liz that Max and Tess were supposed to be together. When something is destined to happen, one usually doesn't have to try so hard to make it so. Perhaps Nasedo was sent with an agenda regarding the podsters, either from the enemy or the podsters' own people. If this is the case, Tess's memories and the book may have been part of the master plan that Nasedo is supposed to make sure takes place.

Dayneen Interesting I guess on a certain level, she could have understood Max's feelings toward Liz if she wasn't so hellbent on killing the royal four, but seriously though I guess the podsters and the skin aren't too different: they possess the ability to love/care about humans and it isn't something they can control. They just cannot help but love the wonderful us

Roxy

BTW, early Thursday morning I caught an episode of Star Trek--I think it was Voyager--in which a race of aliens was on a Hitler-type mission to hunt down and eliminate inferior beings. They had targeted humans, but after studying them the alien leader decided to enlist humans to help save his own species. His reasoning was that humans were a resilient species capable of changing and adapting when necessary to avoid extinction. His species was on the brink of extinction, so he thought if they learned to be more capable of change like humans it would save them. This got me thinking of the lingering question, "why Earth, why humans?" I also love the idea that humans, particularly Liz, were chosen because we possess some quality that is necessary to the survival of Twilo and the podsters people. Any thoughts on this???

[/B]

Brilliant! moon maiden that sounds so interesting. It reminds me of Darwins theory of evolution.

Twilo could be a dying planet and needs help for it to survive. The podsters can be their last resort for survival and Kivar and his people might be trying to destroy Twilo and have the Twilonians become extinct so that Kivar's type of aliens can rule. Could it be possible that the environment that the Skins can thrive in optimally can be different from the environment that the Twilonians can survive in. Maybe the Twilonians need the earth like environment while the Skins need an evironment like Mars.

This could also make sense why the human DNA was mixed with alien DNA. Humans are able to adapt to their environment and evolve. This could also explain why Nasaedo was so gung-ho on the podsters mating and mutiplying. That might be a small role of the Royal four, to create more alien/humans to come back to Twilo and fight off Kivar. This could be a long process but maybe aliens reproduce differently. However that doesn't sound very good for Liz. But wait, one of the pods was leaking right? If it was Tess's pod, she might actually have no human DNA or lacking too much of the human DNA, which would make her defective and Max actually needs a human girl to mate with being Liz. Tess could still help out with her alien powers but as for the mating process, Nasaedo could be wrong.

moon maiden If I went a little overboard with it I apologize.

If the R4 were cloned/hybrid into human form it would make sooo much sense that it was not only to hide them on earth, but (because they don't have memories from before and the Dupes did - even though they were dumped in the sewer to live and didn't indicate anything about their 'protector')also to allow them to grow up as 'non-royalty'{i.e. - as humans they would HAVE to interact with people and be forced to live by the same moral code humans instinctively have. So - Liz comes on the scene - what better way to ensure that, the King at least, learns the human feelings thing than to make sure he found his heart's desire in a human. They even made sure to give him signs that she was meant for him (i.e. - the flashes).

Nasedo was supposed to have been there to guide all of them, but came too late/they hatched to early....Which begs the question - what would Nasedo have told them? In any case, they have no memory and that seems to have been deliberate - maybe to protect them if they were discovered too early in their lives - then they couldn't give any information away.

Sorry for rambling - I've been lurking so long my brain is on overdrive from all of the information...I can't type in questions fast enough...

I also found it interesting that the aliens in the Star Trek episode studied the humans before going after them. I think this lends to the validity of the past visits to Earth theory. Perhaps the past abductions were attempts by the podsters' people to learn about human diseases, and of course the human brain. It makes sense that in order to advance the human brain they would first have to know how it works. Also, they would want to know about human diseases in order to make the podsters immune to them. We see the danger of them being sick in BB because Max's blood cells are not the same as a human's. Maybe they even went so far as to live among humans for awhile to learn our culture, even adding their own contributions. This past colonization could be where ancestors of Max and Liz met. I just think that as advanced as the Twilonians are, and as important as the R4 are to their future, they would have done as much research as possible about where the R4 were being sent in order to ensure their survival. Please feel free to elaborate on this everyone!!!

It would definetly be important for the Twilonians to study the human race before sending the R4. Why would you send your most treasured assets to a planet that would not be helpful for the survival of your own kind.

Howdy. Here's a cut scene from Max to the Max that I thought was relevant...make of it what you will!

Soul Searching
EXT. CARNIVAL - NIGHT

Liz and Nasedo-Max stand near a BLUE-HAIRED OLD LADY some of her friends, waiting in line for a ride.

LIZ
I don't believe you.

NASEDO-MAX
It's true. Tess and Max were made to be
together.

LIZ
But you don't know what Max and I have.
Ever since he saved my life at the
Crashdown, he's changed my. We've seen into each other's souls.

Nasedo-Max laughs. It incenses her.

LIZ (CONT'D)
You have no idea what that means, do you?
Because when I kissed you, you had no
soul for me to see.

Nasedo-Max is taken aback by her boldness. Before he can respond, the Blue-Haired Lady's cacle interrupts them.

BLUE-HAIRED LADY
I don't believe any of that hokey. There's no such thing as aliens.

Scene continues as aired.

So yeah, I guess that souls are important to the equation.

Just to add my two cents on this theory...I get the sense that what happened on Twilo, with the Royal 4 being killed, probably happened pretty quickly. My guess is that they didn't expect it to happen - and probably didn't have a lot of time to come up with a back-up plan. For some reason, I just get the sense that sending down their essences to earth and mixing it with human DNA was something they did out of desperation, not something they had planned.

Does that make any sense? If all 4 of the Royals were killed on their planet, fighting a war, that seems to indicate that they all might have died either in one battle (on Max's wedding day) or very close in time to one another. I don't know. Just a thought.

I just think that with all the Revolution happening on their home planet, sending them to earth was kind of like a last ditch effort, that they weren't even sure was going to be succesful, hence: sending the two sets of pods. I personally think that the NY pods don't have any human DNA (or souls), and that the Roswell podsters do. Hence, the tremendous differences between them. I also happen to think that the NY pods probably are closer in reality to what the podsters were like on Twilo...in character, etc. than the Roswell podsters.

I think it's the human parts of the Max, Michael, Isabelle and Tess that are going to make them better than they were on Twilo, if they ever get back. The traits they have developed that are human, are going to enable them to be better leaders. I think that is why they were hidden away and given control of the Granolith. The queen knew that if they were re-born as themselves...without any enhancement, so to speak, they would be destined to fullfill the same roles they had previously, and probably make the same mistakes as they did in the past. But add the human DNA to the mix...now they have a shot to BE different and DO things differently.

Unless of course the human DNA was the necessary element for them to be ABLE to be re-born for some reason. Maybe it is that evolutionary trait of humans. Did anyone see on the news how they mixed monkey DNA with Jellyfish DNA and how the Jellyfish DNA attached itself to the monkey DNA to form a new strand? Now we have some monkeys on earth whose toenails, fingernails and hair actually glow in the dark! I saw this on the news the other day.

Who knows. I'm making this up off of the top of my head (not the part about the monkeys). The biggest thing I can't understand is why noone gives the Roswell podsters any real INFORMATION about their past, what's going on at home..etc. It's almost like they're getting the information on a Need to Know basis and it's driving me NUTS! Nacedo could have filled them in, the mom-o-gram could've given them more info...Larek, Future Max... it's just getting silly at this point. ie: Tess at one point asked Max if he wanted her to show him memory retreival techniques. Have they ever followed up on that? Grrrrrr....that is perhaps the most frustrating inconsistency on this show! If I were them I would try to get as much information as I possible could. Wasn't it school house rock that said Knowledge is Power? Sorry, I didn't realize this post would end in a rant!

Oh yeah...and how can I tie this back into Liz? I'm mad at her for not finding out from Future Max EXACTLY what was going on...or at least WHY he couldn't tell her more.

{~}:}

And if it is multiple time dimensions, and the Twilonese have the ability to move between these dimensions, maybe "Wipeout" wasn't humans disappearing, but the podsters, altered humans, and for some reason Valenti and Maria being pulled into another dimension. (This would explain why everything was the same as before the humans disappeared. Why there wasn't a big mess at the Crashdown, and it would explain what happened to that baby in the baby carriage. The humans were there the whole time - they hadn't disappeared. It was the podsters that had moved into another dimension.) I know that's a really far out theory, with alot of holes, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

I think the "essence" that was spoken of by momogram is their souls. So, I would agree that the dupes have no souls.

WEBSTERS definiton of soul:
literally means "from the sea" From a belief that all souls come from and return to the sea. 1 an entity which is regarded as being immortal or spiritual part of a person and, though having no physical or material reality, is credited with the functions of thinking and willing, and hence determining all behavior 2 moral or emotional nature of a human being......

With this in mind we can easily explain the behaviours of the dupes. They lack the emotions and moral command to change. They are essentially programmed to repeat the mistakes of their past or at least handicapped in the process of decision making.

There was only one set of souls (essence) so one set of pods would be without. The question of Nacedo is a more difficult one to ponder for me. He behaved like a man without a soul, but what would that make him? Hmmmm....I will need to give that more thought.

I do not know if this added anything to the conversation, but if it did glad to help if not.....well thanks for being patient with me.

~Sheri

SarahD: Great observations from the Pilot! It's my favorite episode of anything, ever. Anyhow, I think StarBox might be right about us only catching a quarter of what the set designers stick in there. For me, that's good news, 'cause it means I can GraceKel my Roswell tapes when I'm in my eighties and still find new things!

I will post another scene later on tonight.

Dayneen: What did the journal say? Could you quote what was crossed off for us? Thanks.

Nemo: Aliens 4 huh? That was pretty chilling to read.

BTW-- I always thought Max had the best costume - Men in Black.

shapeshifter: I think you have a very plausible theory. Especially since CW did think Vilandra was Tess first. Tess's character during Season One seems to match Lonnie's a lot more! And both were protected by shapeshifters~ so they were less likely to be encouraged to except their human sides.

Starbox: 3 types of flashes huh? I don't know. I think we need to see some more things out of Kyle before we can decide anything. I still lean that the females can control their flash experience a lot better than the men. At least it's not as jarring on their minds.

What about the reverse connection? What kind of a flash would that be? (And I wish they would do this again... Maybe when Max find out the truth, Liz gives him a reverse connection, so he can see and feel how hard it was for her.)

As far as siblings marrying one another... YUCK! People say Twilo is advance. Well, their science may be light years ahead of everyone elses, but there social skills are terrible. They really need a good dose of ethics.

As far as comments to hybridazation, mixing of the podsters and human species, we discussed this at great length over on the Signs & Symbols thread (#2). Given the fact there the podsters come from a planetary system that could have 5 or more sentient species, it would seem that the alien's special skill is to hybridize with any creature. In the books the reason why they looked human is because their bodies naturally adapted to life on Earth and the things around them.

I'll be back later!

I can see Lonnie and Rath not having souls, and maybe even Zan, we didn't see enough of him to know if he was just as heartless, but what about Ava? She's a dupe, yet she has very human feelings, being upset by Zan's death, not being able to take part in Lonnie and Rath's plans for Max, her opening up to Liz and ultimately helping Isabel, Michael, and Liz discover how they could save Max in MITC. Many have speculated that Ava and Tess's pods where switched, but in SO47 it appeared that all the pods were connected, therefore it would make it nearly impossible to leave one pod in Roswell and take another to New York. And even though Tess has appeared a bit hard in the past, gradually she's beginning to show human traits, plus I think if she didn't have a soul she would've done more manipulating etc in TLV & Foursquare than she did do. Why would Lonnie, Rath, and possibly Zan not have souls, but Ava does?? Maybe only Lonnie and Rath were defective, and Zan and Ava turned out ok, but they created another batch where all the podsters turned out correct.

Qfanny - Here's the quote from CWW diary you requested. Someone was wondering if CWW was married before she married Mr. Whitaker. This entry confirms that she was.

March 23, 1970
"There are too many question now, I'm not the only one who's made roots here, but Nicholas has informed us all that we need to clean up all traces of our human existence. The Vanessa Crawford who has a birth certificate that's dated Dec 5, 1919 will be destroyed and replaced with one that accurately reflects my age, but as a result we have to disappear and all those we love have to disappear too.

blacked out part:
At least I know this way he didn't feel any pain, I'm the one who gets to remember the look in his eyes when his own wife killed him.

Anyway - Scully! You had a bunch of questions that didn't get answered. One I remember is about "Twilo" - it is a name used in the "Dick Van Dyke Show" years ago, and we have adopted it as our planet name until the "true" name comes out. I can't remember the rest, but PM me, and I will try to answer them when I can.

Nemo and Sarah - great catch about the Protect Planet Earth sign and the number 4!! Never amazed at anything any more.

Moon Maiden - Thanks for the Gladiator summary. Even though we have discussed it before (as Sunrise mentioned), it is always good to refresh the memory about some of these questions. And I find the potential social structure of Twilo and the other planets of GREAT interest!

Tristan - The Soul discussion never gets old for me. These are the kinds of topics I would love to go with a group of you to a coffee shop and discuss for hours. Reminds me of my college and grad school days! Starbucks anyone??

I have more, but have to go tear them away from "Age of Empires"! for dinner! (We are really into ancient empires at our house right now thanks to my son!)

BTW - Nemo - PM me about whether you can post the pictures from the NW lunch once I finally get my film processed. I don't have the capabilities.

Till Later!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

Also, has anyone read the FBI files at silverhandprint. I wonder who was it that requested more info on the crash. The letter to whomever it was, was dated November 29, 2000 , so whoever requested this information did it after the events in MITC. Did any of you find any additional clues there? I didn't find anything.

Soul Searching
EXT. CARNIVAL - NIGHT

Liz and Nasedo-Max stand near a BLUE-HAIRED OLD LADY some of her friends, waiting in line for a ride.

LIZ
I don't believe you.

NASEDO-MAX
It's true. Tess and Max were made to be
together.

LIZ
But you don't know what Max and I have.
Ever since he saved my life at the
Crashdown, he's changed my. We've seen into each other's souls.

Nasedo-Max laughs. It incenses her.

LIZ (CONT'D)
You have no idea what that means, do you?
Because when I kissed you, you had no
soul for me to see.

Nasedo-Max is taken aback by her boldness. Before he can respond, the Blue-Haired Lady's cacle interrupts them.

BLUE-HAIRED LADY
I don't believe any of that hokey. There's no such thing as aliens.

Scene continues as aired.

So yeah, I guess that souls are important to the equation. Hmmm...Compared to the aired Script, I think we have a clue to the nature of a changed Liz--that is, assuming that Nasedo knew what Ava knew about being changed--but maybe he didn't, maybe she got the info from Nicko or whoever their "Protector" was. I'm not saying what the clue is, just (like you, MetaPhysGrl) pointing out a possible place to look. I'm too tired to try to figure it out myself.

The aired version: quote:NASEDO: It’s true, Tess and Max were made to be together.

LIZ: But you don’t even know what Max and I have. You know, ever since he saved my life at the CrashDown, he changed me. We saw into each other’s souls.

PERSON AT THE CARNIVAL: I don’t believe in that hokey. There’s no such thing as aliens.

Sarah

Starbox--HOW MANY EPPIES DID YOU BLITZ THROUGH? I thought we were still talking about RIVERDOG LOL? No comment on the Liz symbollically peeling out of the pod in Athertons basement hmmmm? I consider this to be one of my best finds actually LOL. Of course my daughter always rags on me but Mom I found the Mother of all clues "okay we've gotta get rid of her" LOL. And I do think she is right--it put a whole different spin on things if the shooting was not accidental which I truly believe it was no accident.

Nemo---I caught that PROTECT THE EARTH from the pilot in the past but I didn't realize that Liz was wearing ALIENS 4 outfit hmmmmmm another clue LOL!!!

Okay - I can NOT get this image to post. I have an awesome custom screencap of Liz with the "change" machine. Maybe AOL is not working right tonight - hopefully it will be up in the morning.

GraceKel - ummmmm- Ive been watching ALOT if Roswell! LOL! I have to make myself stop after 3 hours at a time or my brain will explode!
I forgot to comment about the symbolic "pod emergence" from Atherton's - very cool. I love getting to see all the "famous GraceKel images" I have heard so much about!

QFanny - about the reverse connection - I think what she saw then was the equivalent of what Max could see when he connected iwth her - she saw his childhood, felt his feelings. Liz's "flashes" do not seem to be of the same type.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox--whats this you are watching them out of order--you must have order LOL!!!
Well anyway---yes I noticed the word TWIN in ITTW eppy in their closet meeting as well. I was really originally thinking that Tess might have been Michaels sister but who knows--I am not sure we are following original plans I think you are right about this. Did you also notice in ITTW Jeff Parkers positioning on the stairwell looking down at what he believed was a drug transaction LOL---now think of CRAZY-we see the same camera angle from the stairwell when Michael and Maria are talking about meeting Topolsky with the orb. Have you noticed that the Crashdown doors has two orb shapes on them---how come there wasn't an orb on Tess's door LOL?

Oh remember I was talking about those double lettered words===BB Buddha BOy B-Bass(sorry can't remember the other word) Biker Babes, well I found another one in Crazy "oh its BUBBLE BATH"

My daughter found this one from the Roswell book series---in Wipeout when the sheriff is talking to Kyle about the changes he has been going through he mentions Y-long Y-long----my daughter says this was Liz's scent in the Roswell books. Just thought I would throw that in.

Oh and Star I watch Jack and Jill the other night and I had to laugh they mentioned Jack and Jill having that Yen-yang thing going LOL.

Thanks.

Also, Maximus did not love the sister, he had a wife and son who were murdered by the evil brother. His wife was his true love.

YUP...totally agree. Sounds like Vilondra to me.......

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quote:! It is maybe that resilience that makes us enviable to some aliens..... No insult intended but I don't find too many admirable traits in Twilonians!... or Earthlings for that matter, but that's another story!-bluecornmoon

I'm sorry I just had to say I thought that was hilarious I soo agree, LOL.

quote:Of course my daughter always rags on me but Mom I found the Mother of all clues "okay we've gotta get rid of her" LOL. And I do think she is right--it put a whole different spin on things if the shooting was not accidental which I truly believe it was no accident...-Gracekel

GraceKel I think you're daughter is on to something I think she's soo right. I say we get her scoop on these ideas too. Seriously, maybe she'll solve this for us. Isn't it funny how the minds with more imgination than knowledge end up having the best insights...

I'm sorry I don't have much to add I just enjoy reading all your observant and very brillantly stated hypotheses--well atleast most of them anyhow I usually just rant in a circle....

ok well remember how the dupes were probably teh not so right models. someone mentioned earlier that maybe lonnie and rath were the defectives cause they had no soul and maybe zan and ava were alright. maybe they all had different problems like ava lacked self-motivation and always had to b led. i saw that a lot from her. zan we didn`t c enough.

Also, has anyone read the FBI files at silverhandprint. I wonder who was it that requested more info on the crash. The letter to whomever it was, was dated November 29, 2000 , so whoever requested this information did it after the events in MITC. Did any of you find any additional clues there? I didn't find anything.

Hi Dayneen,

Yes, the military hang out in S47 was called Parker's. Have a look at it again - it is the Crashdown.

As for who made the request for info about the crash I could make a guess or two, but none substantiated:

1) Sherriff Valenti's deputy. (I can't remember his name - the one who found Michael's knife near Pierce's bones, etc. He's such a stereotypically earnest character - I wonder if there's not more of a story there. It would be something he would do, I think.

2) Grant Sorenson. From the start we've been made to assume there's a Khivar connection with him - that may be misleading. He could be a hunter instead.

3) Brody could have requested it for the UFO center (less interesting theory)

4) Michael's history teacher. Plausible, but less interesting still.

Those are just my first thoughts.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Nasedo seems to tend towards shapeshifting into the forms of REAL people. There probably was a human named Ed Harding and possibly even a Tess Harding. Nasedo probably killed them and took their place. Sheila Harding was divorced from Ed Harding so she probably didn't want a whole lot of contact with him after the divorce. Any differences noticed by Shiela might have been written off as "jerk of an ex-hubby attitude."

On a different note and slightly OT.
I was rewatching Wipe Out and I noticed that Jim Valenti was short of breath and holding his left forearm. When I first saw WO I thought "heart attack." This time through though I saw Kyle holding his left forearm also and he seemed a little out of breath but not as bad or as obvious as Jim. Kyle was holding his forearm after he and Maria got out of the car up until just before the skin ran out to attack them. He fought the skin and then dissappeared. Just thought it was strange and thought I'd mention it.

First of all I want to say that I really like the thoughts of soul that I've read and everything so far--good insights, everyone!
I was watching part of Harvest today and I noticed that the Crawford address is 726. Didn't someone mention that this was also the Evans' address? Also, on that note, I wanted to add that I love the line about Max being "the man in charge"
Zero, if you live in my area, I'd love to go get coffee and discuss this stuff, too! Oh, and I have a few questions I'd like to throw out to the group here: 1) someone mentioned Grant as having a connection to Khivar. Would someone explain why and when here for me? thanks.
2) the comments about "Protect the earth" have me confused...I think I missed something. little help?
Also, would someone explain the theory with Aliens 4? I've never seen it, so I'm lost there too.
Max's Men In Black uniform
the way and look at each other at the end of the pilot!

Oh and I just remembered. When at the Crawford's--> they show a picture of an owl everytime they're talking with dad sitting in the livingroom. it's behind his chair.
And ideas?

see you later everyone!
Scully

P.s. when does Kyle say "look within, putz" ?

If they weren't really disappearing, but crossing into an "alternate time dimension", that may cause the physical problems. If the Twilonese can exist in multiple time dimensions, they would be able to cross back and forth without any side effects. Liz probably did not display any since she is "altered" and is beginning to develop her power. Although Kyle is altered, he has not developed any powers yet, this may have caused him to experience the side effects, just not as severe as Valenti's. I can't explain Maria, though. By this theory, she should have had the same side effects.

Zero I love McD's. My husband and I never go there unless it is a special occasion like he hasn't done the dishes and I refuse to cook. But it would be wonderful for all of us to meet and chat. I would love to know who all these mythologists are. That would be AMAZING!!

Max_Evans Welcome You might be on to something. The dupes just don't seem right. Someone mentioned this earlier but the dupes pods could of all been linked. So when one of the pod was leaking they all might have been affected. Lonnie and Rath lack human traits but maybe Zan and Ava weren't affected as much. Ava might have leaked out her alien essence while Lonnie and Rath leaked out the human essence. Maybe that was why Ava was treated so badly because she didn't have a lot of the alien powers like the others and felt inadequate. So the leaking in SO47 wasn't meant to say one pod was defective but all four were defective to bring in the Dupes. It would be difficult to have eight Royal fours competeting for the throne and power. However it might have been pre-planned to have the Dupes as a decoy anyways.

Scully to answer your question about Grant being Khivar, I'm guessing too but, didn't Isabel have an immediate attraction for Grant at the Crashdown in Skin and bones?
Also on her birthday party when she touched Grant to wipe the blood off she got these weird sensations or flash? Someone else might have other reasons but that is all I can think of right now.

You all are truely awesome! I haven't posted in a while here and I seem to have missed so much!

Anyway, I love the discussions about the soul and remember something that I read from the Roswell books.

In the first book, as Liz is thinking about Max and how he always seemed to have intersting views on things, one of the things that she mentions is when they got on the subject of cloning, Max wondered if the soul could be cloned. Seeing as how Jason Katims said that he only read the first book, I was wondering if maybe he took that theory and is expanding on this with the subject of the dupes.

Any thoughts?

What did they do to the pod squad, take their souls before they left their dying bodies and trap them until they could make them new hybrid bodies? It seems like a horrible, desparate act. I wonder what made them think the pod squad could succeed in their new hybrid form?

Hello again all... a few more thoughts for everyone to ponder! I remember reading somewhere that a soul can exist in more than one physical body at a time. I don't remember where I read this, but I know I did. Does anyone have any more info about it? I for one do not think souls can be cloned.

Regarding the pods being connected, check this out from the silverhandprint.com site. Check out the last paragraph...it seems to indicate that the pods were in fact connected.

I can't get the image to work, so follow this link and check out paragraph the last paragraph!
http://www.silverhandprint.com/fbi/autopsy/index.html

Something else that has been bothering me lately...Powers. Let's discuss. Has anyone else noticed that Michael and Tess combined have very similar power to that of the skins? Michael has all those *energy burst* types of powers that we have seen Nicholas display, while Tess has all the mind warp abilities. I keep thinking that Tess and Michael are brother/sister and they, back on Twilo, are the same race as the "skins". Observe the powers, especially the differences between their powers and Max and Isabelle's. There are differences. I feel that Michael/Tess combined have the same powers as Nicholas...and if Nicholas is presumed to be 1000x stronger than the podsters (power wise) on earth...well, you can kind of see where I'm going with that.

I also found this at the cut script sites...from Max to the Max..they had this:

THE INSANITY OF ISOLATION:

TESS (to Michael)
I'm your sister.

POD CHAMBER - ROCK FORMATION

MR. HARDING
How could you bring them out here? This is a big mistake.

TESS
You know, I've spent my entire life with
you and you alone. Do you know what it's
like spending your every waking moment
with only one other person? I'm about to
go insane.

MR. HARDING
You know the Special Unit is close. You saw that camera. Who do you think put it
on them in the first place? Our friend
Pierce.

TESS
So why don't you kill him? According to
Max you've done that before.

Scene continues as aired.

_____________________________________________

Hmmmmmm........

{~}:}

They didn't give any more info about that scene...but HMMMMMMMMMMMM!

Also - a little cut scene from Leaving Normal - I already posted my thoughts about the fact that Liz rented Wings of Desire (which is about an angel that falls in love with a human girl and becomes human to be with her).
In the script she rented TWO movies - "Elizabeth" for herself and "Wings of Desire" becuaes she thought GC would like it.

Elizabeth is about queen Elizabeth - and basically the story is that she was forced to become queen and then could not marry her true love (both because he was not "a political match" AND because he was already married (she did not know he had a wife - he had married out of duty/convenience not love).
She refuses to marry politically and instead "marries" England - becoming the VIRGIN queen.

Here is the scene (from roswellscripts.com)
LIZ
Ooh, Elizabeth. This is supposed to be great.

KYLE
Elizabeth! Okay, look, we clearly need to find some common ground. English accents give me a migraine. Except Austin Powers.

LIZ
(finding another movie)
Oh my God, Wings of Desire.

KYLE
(looking at the box)
Subtitles? Not gonna happen, Liz.

LIZ
Kyle, this is the most amazing German film. And Grandma Claudia will love it.

KYLE
(appalled)
German? Grandman Claudia? What's happening to movie night?

LIZ
Oh, yeah. My grandma came in a few days early. So I thought she'd watch with us.
(off his look) Maybe.
(picking up Elizabeth)
Just in case we have time to watch both.

Bluecornmoon - did my husband ever mail that package or should I strangle him??

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Look at the pod chamber aliginment of the Dupes. They are in a row but look at the four square symbol below. It is in the same manner the pods were actually suppose to be in.

Now look at the pod chamber of the Royal four, they are in the same manner as the Royal four fetus symbols above.

Now why were the dupes not aligned the same way as the Royal four? Could the leaking pod have any factor. Did their protector in trying to save the other three detach Ava so the other aliens would keep more of their alien powers and let Ava lose more of hers? It might have been too late to save their human DNA but the Alien essence might have had a chance to survive, especially for Lonnie and Rath.

And if it is multiple time dimensions, and the Twilonese have the ability to move between these dimensions, maybe "Wipeout" wasn't humans disappearing, but the podsters, altered humans, and for some reason Valenti and Maria being pulled into another dimension. (This would explain why everything was the same as before the humans disappeared. Why there wasn't a big mess at the Crashdown, and it would explain what happened to that baby in the baby carriage. The humans were there the whole time - they hadn't disappeared. It was the podsters that had moved into another dimension.) I know that's a really far out theory, with alot of holes, but I figured I'd throw it out there.
Hey! That actually makes sense, sort of. If we also add that "normal time" was frozen, and overlain with "torpedo time", then it works. The humans came back, stepping into torpedo time without noticing a seam; but dropped from sight into (frozen) normal time after being exposed to torpedo time for a while. When torpedo time was disolved, everyone dropped back into normal time. Odd that only humans could not stay in torpedo time, since the aliens and inanimate objects seemed to be scooped up OK; and then the aliens only dropped back but the (duplicated?) inanimate objects disapeared. (Bad science... sigh.)

And if Max takes on the Leviathans next, I'm gonna throw something...

Thinking the dupes may have been a scheme to "DUPE" the podsters.

Also - about the leaking pod - from the standpoint of someone who has done midwifery coursework - when the amniotic fluid is ruptured - birth must occur relatively shortly thereafter. It was not the fetus that was leaking "essence" - it was the fluid that the fetus was gestating in. It is highly unlikely that this fetus could have survived an extended gestation with a ruptured sac. While Roswell is a fantasy show - the "birth" of the podsters was a concrete physical event - and they are part human - therefore - I think the basic "method" of gestation would HAVE to be similar. The fetus within the pod should be a fully developed "baby" with an alien/human essence combined at the cellular/genetic level. I cant see where "half of the essence" could be floating around in the amniotic fluid - or could somehow "leak out". It would be like saying that a human child had its "gender" leak out. Gender is determined WITHIN the cells - within the child. The podsters were hybrids - but that hybridization was at a cellular level - from COMBINED essences. The combination is in their "dna" if you will - half of it can not "spill" out.
My feeling is that that fetus was either born prematurely and survived or born prematurely and died. The podster would be no more "defective" than a premature baby is "defective" - that is to say - that its systems cpould not be fully mature or functional - but its "essence" and systems would be intact. The basic internal systems of a baby are fully FORMED very early in pregnancy. Hal said the things in the "pod" looked like human infants - which indicates they were late in their gestational stage - all of their systems should have been fully formed - although not yet matured.
I believe whatever happened to that fetus happened soon after the crash.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

[/B]

I think you're onto something. What if real time wasn't frozen? Time continued in real time, but when torpedo time ceased, it dropped everyone back to the point in time when torpedo and real time split.

(edited 01-13-2001).]

You're theory makes alot of sense. So, this podster would have been born in 1947. Isn't that when Shiela Hubble was born?

Did anyone notice I posted 2 here in a row, and they are both posted number 79? What is up with that?

I also found this at the cut script sites...from Max to the Max..they had this:

THE INSANITY OF ISOLATION:
TESS
You know, I've spent my entire life with
you and you alone. Do you know what it's
like spending your every waking moment
with only one other person? I'm about to
go insane.

They didn't give any more info about that scene...but HMMMMMMMMMMMM!

Souls: It seems to me that what makes one person different from another is their experiences. (AKA the Tabula Rasa theory.) If this is true, then the soul is made of information rather than something material. Since information can be copied or preserved, it follows that a soul may be copied or preserved. In which case, I'd say that all 8 podsters had souls, but that the NY4 were more like their alien predecessors, and the NM4 were more human. Any biologic portion of the (alien's) soul would have to be built into the human part of the body it was assigned.

Tess: That scene was probably cut because it didn't make sense. Tess had to go to school, right? And she had already referred to her experiences in school in her first episode. Saying that she had been home all the time would have made no sense.

OK, and then the same thing happened as when FMax dropped in: the future changed, and the part of normal time that had passed after the split (and reunion) evaporated. Make sense?

That makes sense. I was wondering why Lonnie and Rath can shapeshift while Isabel and Max can't in MTD. So then why such a difference? Does the leaking pod have anything to do with all this.

Star box: your reasoning makes a lot of sense as well. Especially about the Dupes falling out and landing on CONCRETE 8 FEET BELOW So if the fetus had to be delivered right away once the amniotic fluid is ruptured why are there four dupes? Or are the leaking pods actually of the Royal four? Was Tess born too early and Nasaedo had to create another pod to replace Tess's and that is why she hatched later? As for their essence, is it nurture or nature. Maybe the Dupes would have been more human if they had been raised by humans not in the sewers. Tess is developing her human side now that she is living with the Valenti's.
Also if the other four pods were not the Dupes then what are they?

Sooo... back to Liz .... umm... I think she will be the brains of the podsquad. She'll figure out more about them than they know about themselves! She already knows about the granolith.

Here's a question for you all... will Liz be our Virgin Sacrifce? Ancient cultures used to sacrifice a virgin to appease the gods. Liz has already sacrificed her relationship with Max in order to prevent the end of the world. Is there some kind of alien god that requires a sacrificial virgin? Gosh... I hope not! poor Liz

That definately makes sense. So when Valenti, Kyle and Liz disappeared in Wipeout, they just went into real time. And when torpedo time ended, real time just went back to that morning when the real and torpedo time split.

Star box: your reasoning makes a lot of sense as well. Especially about the Dupes falling out and landing on CONCRETE 8 FEET BELOW So if the fetus had to be delivered right away once the amniotic fluid is ruptured why are there four dupes? Or are the leaking pods actually of the Royal four? Was Tess born too early and Nasaedo had to create another pod to replace Tess's and that is why she hatched later? As for their essence, is it nurture or nature. Maybe the Dupes would have been more human if they had been raised by humans not in the sewers. Tess is developing her human side now that she is living with the Valenti's.
Also if the other four pods were not the Dupes then what are they?

[/B]

Actually - QFANNY has an excellent theory about the podsters being DUPLICATED and then CLONED. The DUPES would be a pre-podster creation. Which could mean that if there were 8 podsters - then there would possibly be 8 "dupes" of them. As for the leaking pod - IF it was from the chamber "our" kids were in - then Id say one of those podsters is an imposter.
Honestly - I dont really know what I think about the second set of pods and what happened to it. The only thing I think for certain is that whoever was in the leaky pod was either born in 47 or died in 47.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

That would be just horrible. I think I am going to throw up Just joking They can't kill Liz, that would be so sad Maybe she is suppose to be like the Virgin Mary, to give birth to an ultimate being and save the world. But your idea can be a possibility but lets hope that would not be the case.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
I hate to disagree with Qfanny, but in SO47, we were told that there were 8 pods. I gotta think that means 8 podsters...

As for the leaky pod: remember, the "mama bear" SSs were right there. If they can heal at all, surely they fixed the leaking pod, and refilled it. (Amniotic fluid isn't particularly special, IIRC: just dirty, but sterile, salt water. A few units of common Normal Saline Solution would do the trick, if the aliens couldn't do it themselves.)

If Sheila Hubble (for example) were born as the "leaky podster", the 2 Bears would have had her in their care immediately. There's no evidence of this, which is why I don't believe it. As many other clues as they give us, wouldn't there be something on this subject?

I hate to disagree with Qfanny, but in SO47, we were told that there were 8 pods. I gotta think that means 8 podsters...

As for the leaky pod: remember, the "mama bear" SSs were right there. If they can heal at all, surely they fixed the leaking pod, and refilled it. (Amniotic fluid isn't particularly special, IIRC: just dirty, but sterile, salt water. A few units of common Normal Saline Solution would do the trick, if the aliens couldn't do it themselves.)

If Sheila Hubble (for example) were born as the "leaky podster", the 2 Bears would have had her in their care immediately. There's no evidence of this, which is why I don't believe it. As many other clues as they give us, wouldn't there be something on this subject?[/B]

I agree - there are 8 podsters. Remember Micheal told the dupes "We didnt expect that they would look like us" - well - what if he was right.

Let me try to explain - suppose QFanny is right. The royals essence was DUPLICATED when they died on Twilo. Then that duplicated essence was CLONED and MIXED with human DNa (to make podsters). The DUPLICATES are not podsters - they are like a Xerox copy of the alien essence minus human DNA.
The duplicates were not sent to earth. UNTIL - Khivar (now in power) found out about Mom's plan for "salvation" - so he send the Xerox copies to earth as a way of tricking the podsters into coming to the summit/luring them/giving up the granolith.

As for the "clue" about the leaky pod - I think the leaky pod IS the clue. I dont think the writers would have shown a leaky pod so clearly if we were just to assume the mama bears patched it up and it meant absolutely nothing. They would have had opportunity to patch it before Hal showed up if all it took was a wave of a glowy hand. In fact - we dont know WHAT the glowy aliens can or cant do. When So47 was written/filmed Roswell did not have a full season - it could be that the leaky pod issue was going to be resolved sooner. Now we have a whole season - possibly a third season. We will find out that that leaky pod had significance - I am sure of it. It was shown way to clearly to be lacking in significance.

BTW Reggie - since you are the history expert and creator of the politics board - in the Convetion - Michael is wearing a shirt that says CUBA 71. Any idea what that means? What happened in Cuba in 71?
I may know about birthing babies - but I dont know much at all about political history.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Actually it has something to do with evil spoilers running amuck also. LOL

Sorry, I feel asleep last night when I intended to just get a few hours of shut eye. But everyone has certainly had much to say during my slumber.

Time shifts
My personal belief is that the blurry vision aliens are phase shifters. Perhaps they are skins, perhaps not. But they seem to be able to see on timeline yet exist in a different one. That is why they cannot be seen with human eyes.

Our messed up timeline would support that time in Roswell is not linear, but multi-layered, maybe even circular in nature.

Dupes and the Podsters
Yes, Starbox pretty much summed up my theory on the relationship of the dupes and the podsters. I believe the the DUPES were 100% necessary to create the Royal Four. I agree with Reggie that they were all PODDED and sent to Earth. But there are differences between the DUPES and the ROYAL FOUR. They are not a mix and match set. They belong in each of their perspective teams.

quote:courtesy of Crashdown.com
....You have lived before. You perished in the conflict that enslaves our planet but your essence was duplicated, cloned, and mixed with human genetic materials so that you might be recreated into human beings...

Duplicated:
Meaning that the original royals essense (whatever that is was first Xeroxed). A copy was made. --Side note, it is likely that the original royals gave their permission to have this done too.
Cloned:
My idea is that this part was an editing process. I used to teach public access users how to set up a studio, edit videotape, and run cameras (among other things~~~ lets just say that I've seen EVERYTHING!). When I was assigned to produce a PSA or a commercial, my process was first to record footage. My next process would be to edit this footage. I would never "clone" everything from my raw tapes, because most of my raw footage is junk! Camera zooms, pans, tilts, focus changes, all this stuff I do not need, so why keep it??? The cloning process filtered the essense, to bring them down to the raw form.
Mixed with human genetic material:
The vision did not say DNA. Although it is widely assumed that the woman meant DNA, she never said it. It would therefore be possible that both sets, DUPES and ROYAL 4 have DNA. The human genetic material I think is something that science or religion cannot define. Let me go back to my -making a video- example. When I was done with the PSA or commercial, I would then turn in my master edit (the dupes) to the traffic manager. The traffic manager would them take my master cut, and edit it into a commercial play tape. The audio tracks allowed him/her to edit in electronic coding that would cue up the tapes automatically. (This is how commercial skip works too.) But the final version, the ROYAL FOUR version, is the commercial we see on TV. It is not the same as the DUPE version because it has the 'extra' coding in it that allows it to be aired on broadcast channels. The DUPES version had to be created first; before the ROYAL version. There was no mistake with the DUPES or the ROYALS. Both are necessary to recreate the royals.

Now the big question is why put the DUPES in pods and grow them? I think it is because if something were to happen to the ROYAL FOUR, they could go back to the DUPES, and recreate them. The leaky pod could have been Tess. Nasedo recreated the BRIDE from Ava's good pod. That would explain the different hatching times. Having the DUPES on Earth could have been seen as insurance, just like Lonnie said. However, the insurance was that they were a "master" copy. Much easier to immediately recreate an airable commercial buy using the "master cut" than going directly back to raw footage.

Whew!

Now, here's another scene from Sexual Healing:
quote:
INT. LIZ'S ROOM - NIGHT
*Liz is at her desk, books open, but she's a million miles away. Her mother walks in.*

Nancy: Honey?

*Nancy closes the door behind her. Liz turns to her mother who's sat herself down on the bed. Kindly:*

Nancy: You have strong feelings about this boy, don't you? Max I mean. The boy.

*As only a teenager can do, Liz puts the thought, "I know you meand well, but can't we not do this, because it's torture" -- into one extended syllable.*

Liz: Mo-oom.

Nancy: I know. I'm old and I'm clueless and what's really unforgiveable is, I'm your mother. But, believe it or not, I think I've been through what you're going through now.

Liz: I don't think so.

Nancy: Having strong sexual feelins for a boy? Thinking about how far you want to go with him, sexually. What that would mean to you... am I anywhere in the neighborhood?

Liz: It's just -- very hard for me to talk to you about this.

Nancy: Well, I have to talk to you about it. So, if you can't talk right now, can you at least listen?

Liz: I can listen.

Nancy: Don't ever have sex. Don't ever leave this house. Just stay my baby girl forever.

*Liz looks at her like she's nuts.*

Nancy: All right, I just ha dto get that off my chest, because a part of me really wants that.

Liz: Mom -- I haven't had sex with him.

Nancy: Good. Look, honey, I'm not really saying don't ever have sex. But, I am really saying -- don't do it now. Save it, until you're older and more mature. And, you get to know the other person really well. Sexual intimacy is one of the most profound experiences of life. If you do it casually, you'll just diminish it.

Liz: I know that. It's not like you haven't taught me anything.

Nancy: Good. Well-- get some studying done.

Liz: (thank God) Okay.

*Her mother turns to leave. Then turns back, *

Nancy: Maybe we should talk a little more now about safe sex, and pregnancy...

Liz: No. Mom. They cover that in school. Really well.

Nancy: Okay. Just remember. You can talk to me. No matter how embarrassed or horrified you think I'll be. Let me be a resource...

Liz: I will, Mom. I promise.

Nancy: Good. I know I can trust you.

*Nancy leaves.

Liz looks at herself in the mirror. That place where the glowing hickey was. She's horrified to find it's turned into an awful rash or scabby thing.

Liz immediately picks up the phone, goes to a corner, near the mirror. Places a call. Continues looking at the awful scab. *

Liz: It's me. I need to see you. Max -- something's happening to me.

Seems to me altered Liz was intended with Sexual Healing after all, doesn't it?

I'm inclined to believe that the dupes are from the other 4 pods, and are genuine. I'm inclined to believe that Tess is one of the 4 podsters and not a plant of some other race.

Here's my thinkings:
- The stuff that was leaking from the pod was the "essence" of the alien that Max was in love with.
- Tess was in the leaking pod
- Liz now has the essence from that pod
- Tess emerged from the pod seemingly whole, but without that essence.

So they're both right, they both belong with Max because they both have parts that make up the whole. And Max's destiny is with BOTH of them - Tess, who has the powers to help overcome their enemies, and Liz, who has the essence he's in love with.

Just my thoughts.

Now the big question is why put the DUPES in pods and grow them? I think it is because if something were to happen to the ROYAL FOUR, they could go back to the DUPES, and recreate them. The leaky pod could have been Tess. Nasedo recreated the BRIDE from Ava's good pod. That would explain the different hatching times. Having the DUPES on Earth could have been seen as insurance, just like Lonnie said. However, the insurance was that they were a "master" copy. Much easier to immediately recreate an airable commercial buy using the "master cut" than going directly back to raw footage.

*******************************************

Yup QFanny - that scenario works for me too. It is possible - maybe even probable that things are just as the appear to be.
BTW - I just LOVE your duplicte theory (can ya tell) - I think it makes SO much sense and if its NOT what the writers intended - it should be :-)

Its just - looking at the dupes "pods" - they look fake to me - something just doesnt sit right. And I would have hoped that whatever was in the second set of pods would not have been trying to kill off the royal 4. Remember the signs in MTD "WHO ARE THEY? and WHERE DO THEY COME FROM? It occured to me that the duplicate part of the process could have occurred on Twilo and it could have been that they "fell into the wrong hands" - so to speak. Especially if the dupes lacked souls and were just look-a-like copies. (Back to the question of can you clone a soul)
I do think that what was in the second set of pods is still to some extent "up in the air" and will probably depend on if Roswell gets a third season. The simple answer = the dupes - but the writers have kept their options open.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

There's a movie called Dead Again with Kenneth Branagh and Emma Thompson and it has to do with reincarnation, soulmates, etc. Basically, the woman starts having these nightmares about her past life. The nightmares are about a composer who was accused of killing his wife. A private investigator hired to help her takes her to a hypnotist to regress her. She starts talking about the life of the composer and his wife in the third person, as an observer. As circumstances cause things to unravel, the p.i. goes under hypnosis, too. Only to find out that he was the wife and she was the husband in their past life. I'd like to point out here that they never met each other before all of this. To continue, they're both afraid the other one is going to kill them. It turns out that the composer really didn't kill his wife, and they join forces to kill the real killer.

I know that was long and drawn out, but when I saw it, I thought of Liz and Max and their past life. Who knows. Maybe their roles are reversed now. Anyway, there you go. Chew on it if you like.

Just wanted to add that a huge point was made that they were two halves of the same person.

I have so many questions running around in my head. I would assume that all 4 were meant to hatch at the same time or near the same time like multiple births. If the pod was damaged to the point of death, why would the person in the pod look to be about the same age as the other 3? What did the air bubbles in her pod mean? I got the impression that she was dead.

If Nacedo was their protector, where the heck was he? He only manages to show up for Tess's birth. Does this mean the other 3 were born early? That does not seem plausible. More likely she was born late. If she was born. My feeling is that he found her dead and replaced her the best he could, by engineering another but there was something missing so it took him 10 years to brain wash her into believing that she was Max's bride and planting bits and pieces of memories in her head.

Why did it take him 10 years to find them? Lets be realistic, unless he was quite a few years late, he should have been able to locate them in Roswell.

Why did he supposedly teach Tess how to use her powers and how to retrieve her memories, but never offered to show the other 3 the same things? When they ask for some guidance he tells them he is there to protect them not to lead them and obviously not to teach them anything.

More questions but can't hold a single thought together right now.

The visions that Liz gets in Sexual Healing could not be memories buried inside Max. Max was in a pod and was an infant when they crashed. The perspective that Liz sees is from someone inside the ship looking out. And from the perspective of someone running from the army. That could not have been Max, he was in a pod in the chamber or at the military base. Max could not have seen where the orb was hidden, he was not there. The only way that Liz could get these visions from inside Max would be if they were planted there by his protector to be found later. Who's memories are they? TicTac's? How did she get them? They could not have been projected to her since they only happened when Max touched her and that would mean that TicTac was with them constantly. And he could have just projected them without the touching. These are something unique to Liz. The question is how and why does she see these things.

I have tried to put together a scenerio of events from the crash but I keep coming up with too many inconsistancies.

Yes - you are right - I actually have a close friend who broke her water early - but she also had to be on strict bedrest and intravenous drugs and antibiotics to keep her from going into labor too early and keep the baby from getting an infection. Reggie was also right - amniotic fluid does constantly replenish itself (although it can not be substitued with saline solution - saline soultion is only used in PROM cases with cord prolapse to take pressure off the umbilical cord until emergency surgery is performed). However - if it is continually leaking it is a very dangerous situation. EXTENDED gestation (like the podsters had) would be impossible. Plus - a ruptured membrane carries with it a huge risk of infection. What rarely happens is that a small tear can develop in the membrane - a small amount of fluid can leak - and then it can "repair itself". It is rare - but not impossible. More than you care to know about PROM (premature rupture of membranes) - maybe ??? LOL!!!! But hey - pregnancy and birth are just one of those things that fascinate me.

I would say the alien pod had extensive damage. Also - it had some sort of alien amniotic "goo" for fluid - not something the military could have replaced.

I agree with you - it is a distinct possibility that the leaky pod contained Sheila. I would love the writers to go in this direction because it would tie up so many loose ends.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Something really weird must have happened for those pods to end up in that cave near the granilith (which I doubt was even in the crash from the look at that debris field). And there's no way Nasedo put the pods there, otherwise he would have known where they were all along.

And as for the dupe pods getting to New York, I doubt they took a bus.

I'm with ya on that one! I know this is simplistic, but I think the writers used the word DUPE because of the double-entendre. It's a red flag from the get-go.

Dupe - n. duplicate
Dupe - v. trick, hoax, deceive by underhanded means, intent to delude by means of a ruse or fraud, contriving an elaborate imposture in order to deceive...

That would make sense why Zan or Max was not attracted to Ava or Tess and Zan was waiting for someone else. They might of never have had the essence of the bride to begin with.

It could also be true that the Dupes were left at Twilo and only the eight clones were sent to earth. The second set of pods could of all died if they were all linked together and only the Royal Four survived.

So who sent the Dupes to earth? Could it be Khivar? Was their protector one of Khivar's people. The Dupes were duped themselves. Why did their protector tell Zan not to bring anyone back from the dead? Could this be an important part of their ultimate plan, the prophecy and the protector was trying everything to not let it happen by scaring Zan never to do it . What kind of change would it be? Would this change actually help the Royal four in the end and ultimately kick Khivar's sorry a**? Khivar so afraid of the prophecy had to dupe the Dupes?

I think the answer to this question lies within the fate of future Roswell seasons.
The writers thus far seem more fond of throwing new characters at us than actually expanding on the ones that they already created - who either disappear (Riverdog?? Eddie?? Milton?? Valenti Sr?? Tic-Tac?? Grant??) or get killed off (Courtney, CW, Pierce, Harding-sedo, Grandma Claudia, Hubble).
If Roswell does in fact return next year - it wouldnt suprise me at all to see them add more podsters.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Anyways, I have been thinking why M/I/M never had a "protector" all those years. Is it possible that the glowing aliens felt that they were defective (the one with the leaking sac)? The 3-pod squad had different accounts of their birth than what Tess "envisioned". They only felt each other (the three of them). Then, Max healed Liz at the Crashdown which sent "flashers" to Nacedo, indicating that they actually did survive.

I know this is a "simple" explaination, but it could account for the absense of their protector.

tp

Also - during the make-out scene in the desert (where they have just decided to "cement") you hear Indian chanting right before the orb starts beeping and interrupts them.
QFanny - I have always said the the sexual activity in SH was causing a physical metamorphasis in Liz - rewatching it - especially with the knowledge of EOTW and MITC - it seems even more so. So - now that Liz is changing on her own - is she clear to "cement"?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Yes, but the reason I posted that scene in the first place was because the first line of dialogue had Tess saying to Michael, "I'm your sister." Which supported the theory I was writing about at the time.

I don't know if anyone answered this for you or not because I haven't read the whole thread...but the musical notation on the chalkboard in the pilot was an A Flat Major scale. Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab. The only thing even remotely interesting about this scale...is that the key signature has 4 flats.

{~}:}

It would be interesting if someone with perfect pitch could listen to these tones and tell us what the notes are. They might actually spell something. I really can't be much help because I'm tone deaf. Where are you Metaphysicalgrl?

First off did anyone catch the movie "Roswell: Aliens Attack" on the sci-fi channel on saturday? It was kinda interesting, but with no connections to our show whatsoever that I saw. Only thing I noticed was that the male alien had hypnotic/soulful (can't decide which) eyes like Max

On saturday they also showed "The Fifth Element" on ABC. And I watched it simply to see if there were any similarities seeing as how we hold Liz as the 'fifth element' theory close to our hearts Here what I noted:
-takes place in the 23rd century, 2+3=5
-"snake" was mentioned(you know who I'm referring to )
-prophesy occurs every 5,000 yrs.
-she is referred to as a "perfect being", could Liz be considered...?
-"devine" light (as in Liz as Virgin Mary)
-engineered. only if essence put into Liz or GC or whoever
-5th element is to "protect" others, that's her main purpose. NOT only purpose, MAIN purpose (thinking M&L+love+romance,etc)
-sign of recognition in movie: a tattoo; sign of recognition on show: 'V' on chest? does it show in pilot where Liz is examining herself in mirror?

Ya'll can find connections with that. On to responses,

quote:my daughter found this one from the Roswell book series-in Wipeout when the sheriff is talking to Kyle about the changes he has been going through he mentions Y-lang Y-lang- my daughter says this was Liz's scent in the Roswell books. Just thought I would throw that in

OMG! GraceKel I totally missed that! That and some other stuff (ahem spoilers, sorta) that could mean that the writers are using stuff from the books!

Tristan If Grant is Kivar that could be the reason why Iz felt so attracted to him, if indeed Vilondra did have an affair with him

TVPooh sacrifice?! No!! Well, you could say that Liz has already been sacrificed, she did it herself in EOTW. I do believe that she will indeed prove herself invaluable later on; not just with what she knows and what she can (will be able to) do, but the enemies use her someone as a bargaining chip to get to the podsters if they realize how important she is?

Random replies:

Someone said that souls can live in multiple bodies. Well souls can exist out of the body as well, like soul-jumping, sort of like an OBE when you "jump" out and in your skin but can't remember where you went. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Has anyone else had these experiences?

Who's saying that Max and Iz (maybe Mike and Tess too?) can't shapeshift or change themselves? Remember that they are still developing their powers unlike the dupes who seemed to be way ahead of them. In the books the podsters "learned" to change their appearance later on, which leads back to what I said earlier about the other writers having read the other books of the Ros series.

Also, if Nasedo did create a podster or dupe to replace the one that leaked how was he able to do that without the technology? Could the granolith be used to such things?

And if Sheila Hubble was indeed the leaky pod then who's her look-a-like/dupe?

Wow! that was a long post, I doubt anyone would wanna read it now sorry about that, but I couldn't use the computer all day today and most of yesterday cuz my dad and bro were holding it hostage

Nite all
Roxy

I'll give a listen to it in the morning and put a response up then.

What we have here is three pinging notes in the key of D (at least that's what's implied), immediately above the treble clef:

a f# g

and, sounding at the same time, a very low buzz in a string or something:

d# e, with a very faint b above it (5th)

I think the pinging is slightly reminiscent of the beep in the desert, but it's not THE SAME. It just has a similar quality about it.

The reason this sounds so weird, by the way, is because of the notes played against each other (I'm laying the notes out rhythmically here):

a f# g
b (as I say, very faint)
d# e

1st: d# is not IN the implied key signature whe have here (D).

2nd: The low d# is sounding against an a natural. This interval is called a tritone. It's an augmented fourth or diminished fifth, depending on how you look at it, and it's a really ugly interval, at least to the western ear, and difficult to sing. There's a singer's trick, when you have trouble with a tritone, sing Ma-RI-a... from West side story. The first two notes are a tritone apart.

If I lost you in all of that, this may be of interest: prior to and in as late as the 16th century the tritone was considered to be an interval of the devil; composers for the church weren't allowed to use it at all. Very obtuse of those old curmudgens, imo! A tritone can be very useful (and natural) as passing tones in the middle of a phrase. In fact, if the phrase we have here were heard in a passing phrase in the key of D, it probably wouldn't bother our ears at all.

The reason this is so weird sounding is that we're assaulted by that jarring interval in the very first sounds we hear. As I say, D is the implied key here, but the d# is actually a half step higher than the root; that grinds against the a natural.

I haven't looked back at the notes on the blackboard in the other episode, but if it was an A-flat major scale, I'd say these two pieces of music were unrelated.

You guys are all awesome, and i was thinking...

The Royal Four never really ahd confimation that the Granolith was the actuall Granolith. All CW said was that they had it, and Isabel assumed that the big round thing was the Granolith...but what if that thing in the chamber is the power source for...Liz? What if Liz is really the Granolith, and the big round thingy is where she will learn to control and develop her power.

I was also thinking...

In MITC, Liz was able to [u]dreamwalk[/u] into Max's head. What if she simply connected with Isabel, and then since she is the fifth element, was able to strengthen her (isabel's) power. What would happen if she connected with Michael, would his alien power blast thing be more powerful? Or would Max's sheild be more powerful if he connected with Liz? Do you get what I am trying to say? What if Liz were the one to help Max, when using his sheild during, the Harvest? Would it have been more powerful??

THEN!!!

What did Isabel see when she connected with liz? Did she see anything? I was rewatching it, and when Isabel opened her eyes to look at Liz, there was almost a look of respect and awe.

Think about it! Write me back@@

first sound:
low, low d# with a high a

second sound:
the low d# is still sounding but now with a high f#

third sound:
low, low e with a high g and a very faint b somewhere in the middle

Sorry for the messy notation! It's hard to describe without showing a staff.

I know that has been mentioned before but oh well!

Oh, gee, I'd have to say that was all my pleasure. Let's see, I got to watch the eraser room kiss again about 4 times this morning? !!!!!!!!!!! WHAT A KISS!!!!!!!!

after rewatching Wipeout, here's a theory about how Nicholas got away.
When he is interrogating the royal four they are tied to columns and are in spotlights, this seemed like a very stylized set-up to me. When the skins go, there are no more columns or spotlights. so i thought:
what if everything in that scene was a MINDWARP by Nicholas? He made them see the columns, feel tortured and made them see all the other skins. Courtney says he has way more power than any of the royal 4. we see throughout the episode that the other skins are rapidly failing, what if they had already died by then, and Nicholas just made the 4 see them? then, when maria blew up the rod, he sensed this, saw Tess' mindwarp and took that as a opportunity to get away. he made them see the skins and assume that they died, when it was really just a way for him to get away. thus, he didn't really die and could show up in MITC.
I could also suggest that maybe Nicholas and Tess were in league during this, but i'm not sure.

this is very confused, what do you think?

Zara, thanks for the tritone explanation! You must teach music; the MA-RI-a explanation for tritone made it clear to me. And the background on the taboo of the interval was very interesting. I always interpreted that scene (as it aired) to mean the Max was disturbed by the kiddie porn nature of the blending of past Liz with their present passion. So maybe the tritone was chosen because of its taboo association.

BTW, I'm no musicologist, but isn't the A-flat scale (on the chalk board) frequently used in Blues compositions? And isn't it a common key for the Star Spangled Banner? Or am I all wet here? quote:Originally posted by Dreamgirl702:
...The Royal Four never really ahd confimation that the Granolith was the actuall Granolith. All CW said was that they had it, and Isabel assumed that the big round thing was the Granolith...but what if that thing in the chamber is the power source for...Liz? What if Liz is really the Granolith...Qfanny also had a theory like this, but the opening scenes of TEOTW and FM's lines to Liz would dispel the possibility of the granolith being anything other than the inverted cone object.

Lurker, Your theory would work if it was tweaked a little so that Nicko was frightened by the power of the firestorm (which I like to think was a concert of Tess' mindwarping and Maria's green-alien-rod disabling), because Miko plays the scene with a look of horror on his face.

Back to the leaky pods: There are 3 possibilities (that I can think of) that would have caused the damage: 1) the crash itself. 2) Disection by the human scientists 3) Deliberate damage by a shapeshifter.

first sound:
low, low d# with a high a

second sound:
the low d# is still sounding but now with a high f#

third sound:
low, low e with a high g and a very faint b somewhere in the middle

Sorry for the messy notation! It's hard to describe without showing a staff.

Actually Zara - the three notes I was referring to on the chalkboard are AEF - you also see AEF on the chalkborad in science/match class in the pilot. So - looks like they could be related after all. What do you make of it? Thanks for your explanation and transcription. My husband gets 100% of the credit for picking up on the musical tones.

Shapeshifter - it never occurred to me that the damage to the pod could have been deliberate. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Both are from Sexual Healing -

1) In the scene between Michael and Maria on the bleachers (right before she "fakes" her flashes) - Maria is standing next to banner that reads "Make It Real" - LOL!!!

2) Right before Max goes into the science classroom he is standing in front of the "Random acts of kindness" banner. However - the door is opened against the banner so you only see the word "KIN". Now - here is the line that immediately follows this image:

ASTRO TEACHER: Ok, people. Hydrogen, oxygen, carbon. Created in the millisecond after the Big Bang. These simple molecules are the basis of all possible life forms in the universe, present and unaccounted for...or, so we think. The conceit that alien life forms would be like us in any essential way would be, uh, the wishful thinking of a lonely planet that once believed it was the center of the universe.

Just thought I would share - I thought both were really nice touches - and examples of why I watch Roswell.
God is in the details :-)

And LOOK! I got my "Liz Change" screencap to post :-)
Thank You Thank You to my screencap MASTER over at www.theddd.com for making this for us.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox and audrey11: The movie plots you mentioned reminded me of something I read recently. Ancient philosophers like Plato believed that souls were reborn in cycles. If a person was born male, at the end of his life his soul would be reborn as a female. They believed that the cycle was endless; therefore, a soul could exist for thousands of years, in different people, taking turns as a male then a female, or vice-versa. Do you think it's possible that Max and Liz's souls have known each other before, maybe in an Elizabeth-type situation? Does this make any sense? At all???

Ok, back to lurkdom.....

And if Sheila Hubble was indeed the leaky pod then who's her look-a-like/dupe?

This is kinda way out there, and would involve rather a lot in the way of conspiracy theories, but what about this?

Who says Sheila Hubble would be from the Original podsters? What if Sheila is the look-a-like/Dupe, and the Original is ......

our Liz!

Hmmmmmmm.

WR

Air--air sign people apprehend the world primarily through the thought mode. Air sign people are finely tuned to the world of senses and thus can be easily irritated by only minimally disturbing sounds, smells, and tastes. They enjoy putting their mental capabilities to the test and playing games. They often are accused of having emotions which do not go very deep, or of being butterflies who flit from one blossom to the next. Their somewhat cool and detached exterior may hide turbulent feelings below.

Libra--Idea and society oriented, Libra takes an active interest in the world of people, human relationships, and social codes. Harmony is very important to Libra, so it seeks to balance points of view, to relativate, and to evaluate fairly. Libra does not like to be rushed into any decision. Looking good is important to Libra, as is being surrounded by beauty. Libra is concerned with relationships, particularly marriages and other partnerships.

October 15--Libra's is ruled by Venus, as is this day's ruling number 6 (5+1). People ruled by the number 6 attract other people easily, even inspiring worship in others. The venusian qualities manifest as social interests, love of beauty, comfort, and sensuality.

October 25--The number 7 is ruled by Neptune, and Libra ruled by Venus. People born on this day prefer to remain close to home.

I may just be seeing what I want to see, but I thought this sounded a lot like Iz.

Based on what I've been researching, it is most likely that Liz is a Virgo, the VIRGIN, and an earth sign. Previous jokes about mud aside, Earth and Water are seen to be a very fertile combination. In fact, the dragon is also a symbol of earth and water, symbolizing above all the fertilizing power of rain.

If anyone thinks any of this may be of importance, let me know and I will post the info on Max, Tess, and general info about each element's characteristics.

OK, I think I see what you mean:
Original: King Max (etc.)
First (working draft) copy: Zan
Second (final revision) copy: Max
Both copies sent to Earth for safekeeping. (?)

Well, that does explain why Zan & co. still had their alien memories: they haven't been edited out yet. But you're saying that the "dupes" were sent later, by K' var & co.? I disagree: we saw both sets of pods in the stuff recovered from the crash. Unless there is another quartet of "final revision" podsters out there, and the "dupes" are a second shipment, this one of "working draft" pod people? A little busy, for my taste...

And The Dupes have to have human genetic material (DNA): they are human shaped, and can live here. They also look like MMIT.

Personally, my rede was that Mom was repeating herself, rephrasing it as an explanation of what was done. "Duplicated, cloned {you might say}, and mixed with human genetic material {whatever it is they use, I forget}...

I agree that the "leaky" pod is significant, but for a different reason. It is to demonstrate the danger: how close the Army medics were to cutting up our podsters for research. Thus, the rescue was more of a crisis.

"Cuba 71"? I've no idea. (Boy, you never thought I'd say that, did you?) I guess I'll just have to go back and look at The Convention again...

Ok, back to lurkdom.....

Not yet!
The Dupes' symbol is different from the 4-square symbol. The 4-square symbol has little commas in the "pods", like embryos. The Dupes' symbol has round dots. Why, I don't know; but they are different!

...Isn't the A-flat scale (on the chalk board) frequently used in Blues compositions? And isn't it a common key for the Star Spangled Banner?

I agree with you - that scene with little Liz dressing up makes me uncomfortable, and I could see how it would be disturbing to Max. The eery music was used to good effect.

I can't speak with much authority about the blues but I do know that the darker keys are favored by Jazz pianists. By darker I mean the black keys on the piano - some say they have a more mellow sound. That would make A-flat and D-flat great keys for blues and jazz pianists.

I checked a couple of hymnals around my house from different denominations - they both show the Star-Spangled Banner in B-flat; that makes the top note an F, which is usually too high for general public non-singer types. That's the problem with the danged thing; it has an unusually wide range. I think "America the Beautiful" would be better!(where's my soapbox...) Well, anyway, if you lowered it to the key of Ab it would be a tad easier for folks to sing. Perhaps that's general practice now; I don't know. It would be a good idea, though...

BTW - interesting thoughts re:Elizabeth and the reincarnation of male/female souls.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Yeah, I just went back and looked at both of those.

In the pilot, when Max is telling Liz where he's from, she is standing in front of an A-flat major scale. She blocks a few of the middle notes for most of the shot, but near the end of the scene she moves out of the way and you can see that the whole thing is A-flat major.
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab

In The Morning After Max is sitting in front of the side blackboard in Geometry class - you can see part of an equation that reads

*DE= delta AEF

where * is blocked, but might be an A or a delta; I can't tell. Delta means change. I'm sure someone's pointed that out before.

There are a couple of blackboards in the room- the one in front has a circle on the left and an angle drawn on the right, both with equations. It's not clear if the AEF equation has anything to do with the stuff on the front board, but alot of the points on the front board are labeled and legible. It might be worth a mathematician's look.

I don't know what delta AEF means, but if you turn it into a musical line it has the same shape as the one in Max's lizkid flash in Sexual Healing, but the intervals are a bit different. By that I mean they both start on A, go down and then back up, but they wouldn't sound the same, since they go down to different notes and go back up to end on different notes. If you were making a song out of the two phrases they could go together alright, but it would sound unfinished - you'd be left hanging with no resolution. They could be part of an incomplete tune, though. Gosh, after humming them today, I think I'll recognize them if I hear them put together in a future episode!

Though interesting to compare, I think the delta AEF and the short tune in the flash are probably unrelated. That said, it's been fun pondering it!

I gotta go pick up the laundry and start supper...

MAN! We need a new episode!

I don't know what delta AEF means, but if you turn it into a musical line it has the same shape as the one in Max's lizkid flash in Sexual Healing, but the intervals are a bit different. By that I mean they both start on A, go down and then back up, but they wouldn't sound the same, since they go down to different notes and go back up to end on different notes. If you were making a song out of the two phrases they could go together alright, but it would sound unfinished - you'd be left hanging with no resolution. They could be part of an incomplete tune, though. Gosh, after humming them today, I think I'll recognize them if I hear them put together in a future episode!

MAN! We need a new episode!

[/B]

Zara - so would the shape of both musical lines look sort of like a V?

And yes - we DO need new episodes!! LOL!!!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I thought that those flats looked familiar!

No time for comments, but I am sure you will have some.

I don't know what delta AEF means, but if you turn it into a musical line it has the same shape as the one in Max's lizkid flash in Sexual Healing, but the intervals are a bit different. By that I mean they both start on A, go down and then back up, but they wouldn't sound the same, since they go down to different notes and go back up to end on different notes. If you were making a song out of the two phrases they could go together alright, but it would sound unfinished - you'd be left hanging with no resolution. They could be part of an incomplete tune, though. Gosh, after humming them today, I think I'll recognize them if I hear them put together in a future episode!

Though interesting to compare, I think the delta AEF and the short tune in the flash are probably unrelated. That said, it's been fun pondering it!

You doubted me about the Ab major scale?

YES! The shape of both musical lines is a V! You really had to spoon-feed me that one!
Lost in the details, I am...

YES! The shape of both musical lines is a V! You really had to spoon-feed me that one!
Lost in the details, I am...

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooo
So - when Max is kissing Liz in SH he recieves a flash punctuated by a series of musical tones which - when looked at in notation - FORM A V PATTERN.
Well - that is pretty dang cool. Even if it was not intentional - it is still awfully cool.
Isnt "music" supposed to be the "universal" (pun intended) language (thinking of Close Encounters here).

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Not at all! NoNoNoNoNO! It's just that this thread is full of such heavyweights I had to go back and check everything to make sure I wasn't making any false assumptions! Megaphysicalgrl, I should have ref'd you anyway as I continued to respond on this topic! That was bad form on my part, although unintentional. My apologies! I certainly don't want to step on any toes.

What do you think about Qfanny's 4 + 1 = delta AEF comments as they relate to music and all the flats? Am I missing something? Qfanny, hit me over the head with something, will ya?

Gee, you guys are helping me raise my # of posts level today! Sorry to be a hog.

Not to get all picky on you, but wouldn't that almost support my point? That the dupes didn't quite have the symbol right - as if someone relayed its significance (with regard to the R4) to them, but then got lost in the details and screwed it up a bit? How can I say this better....someone "on the side of evil" saw the symbol once on Twilo, knew for sure that it was related to the real R4, but then screwed it up when drawing it from memory? The dupes wear it as a sort of symbol of their supposed importance, but anyone who is anyone (and who would know for sure who the real R4 are by whatever means) would know by the inaccuaracy of the symbol that they are posers.

Ok, not that any of this has anything to do with anything, but I was thinking about it on the way home....

NO NO NO NO....I was joking...hence the Sorry, sometimes I forget that my humor doesn't always translate well over the computer!!

I don't think TPTB intended for the music to mean anything. IMHO, I picture a music editor or director sitting at a keyboard following a script directive (make the music here eerie.) Due to lack of budgets and stuff I can see them doing that. You can draw all kinds of crazy conclusions from everything...Like it was an Ab major scale on the board, and remember in Blind Date when Maria was going to sing with Alex's band? Well, she said to them give me an Eb...and an Eb is the FIFTH note in the Ab major scale...so maria HAS to be the fifth element. I don't mean to offend anyone by saying that, but I really think trying to tie the music into the whole mythology thing is reaching -- although it would be REALLY cool if it were true. If TPTB read this...there's an idea for you.

Anyway, that's just my humble opinion!

Smiles...
{~}:}

I don't think TPTB intended for the music to mean anything. IMHO, I picture a music editor or director sitting at a keyboard following a script directive (make the music here eerie.) Due to lack of budgets and stuff I can see them doing that. You can draw all kinds of crazy conclusions from everything...Like it was an Ab major scale on the board, and remember in Blind Date when Maria was going to sing with Alex's band? Well, she said to them give me an Eb...and an Eb is the FIFTH note in the Ab major scale...so maria HAS to be the fifth element. I don't mean to offend anyone by saying that, but I really think trying to tie the music into the whole mythology thing is reaching -- although it would be REALLY cool if it were true. If TPTB read this...there's an idea for you.

Anyway, that's just my humble opinion!

Smiles...
{~}:}[/B]

Hmmmm - well - here is what I think :-)
Of course - it can all just be a random coincidence. BUT - there is a difference between overanalyzing clues (like the Maria note) that are dropped casually. It is like interpreting text out of context to try to get it to "prove" or support a theory.
However - in Sexual Healing - the scene with the kidflashes is very intentional. You see a rush of images - each punctuated by a clear and distinct musical tone. It is one of the rare times we see a flash from Max's POV and the music is very unlike the music that accompanies the other flashes. The music is also out of place. If it is meant to be disturbing - then what was the point of having Max recieve disturbing flashes? Just seems strange to me.
In a case like this - I do think that you can assume that the choice of music and images was intentional and significant.
I dont think you can necessarily relate it to the notes on the chalkboard - but I do think the SH music ITSELF probably has some significance. Rewatch that scene - it really does stand out. ( Okay - I'll admit - my mind was on *other* things when I initially watched it :-) :-) :-)

And Zara - a few more posts and you will be out of "training" :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

About the Ab and Eb scales, and maybe the AEF or AFE business, some musings about that are on the Maxcedo site (numbers section) http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/numbers.htm

or on Rosta's symbols thread (about halfway through?). http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/000381.html

See you later -- I'm late for band rehearsal....

I was just taking graphic/poetic license in a mini-collage. It almost makes sense if you read the page Nemo referred to: http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/numbers.htm

But I agree that the musical notation-as-V is very cool. Notice it has the same angle as Max's 'brain stencil,' um, but in reverse:

Probably the whole v-shape thing is a coincidence. But I think Zara's background on the taboo of the interval could actually have been relevent. Or maybe the taboo was based on some archetype of sound & the person selected it just because it sounded appropriate (rather than because he/she knew it was considered the taboo interval).

Probably the whole v-shape thing is a coincidence. But I think Zara's background on the taboo of the interval could actually have been relevent. Or maybe the taboo was based on some archetype of sound & the person selected it just because it sounded appropriate (rather than because he/she knew it was considered the taboo interval).

Actually, I think the correct notes you were trying to map out were AEF...which would form a similar shape to what you posted in your pic IF you were to start at the A, then go down to the E and then up to the F. But what if you started plotting the notes on the staff at a different location? You could start at the a and GO UP to the E then either go up again to the F or go down to the F. This would change the whole entire shape, which is why I really didn't think the writers intended for this to be a 'clue'.

In regards to the music that accompanied the SH flashes, I completely agree that they were MEANT to be disturbing. The clue is not in the music, but in the fact that those flashes were disturbing to Max. Why?

Was Max seeing into Liz and sensing the changes within her? Is that why the music sounded like that?

And, I don't know if any of you saw the coming attractions for next week...or the next four episodes, but they are being dubbed as THE HYBRID CHRONICLES. Looks like we're going to be getting a lot of new information to play with!!!! They are going to deal with the 'human' side of the podsters.

What part, if any does Sheila Hubble and Grandma Claudia have in all of this? It looks like we might get some answers.

Have a lovely evening, everyone!!

Smiles,
{~}:}

I personally, think Liz to be a leader. As first chair clarinetist in high school, I would tune the rest of the band by playing a Concert B flat. On a B flat clarinet, that was a C... I tend to think if Liz is the note that determines mode, she is a B flat. Which makes the chord a A flat minor.

I am sure someone out there has a better understanding of music theory than myself. I just want to also note for Zara that my first composition assignment was writing a song using only three notes (different pitches are okay.) Believe it or not, it works.

I keep thinking about what Max said in "Ask Not" - "I'm coming for you, Liz." I've always found that statement odd and think it refers to a past Max promising to come back to earth for his love, Liz. What do you all think?

Rooney

Just for clarification, that "devil" tritone I mentioned is not in the V melody, but in the relationship between the first note of the V (A) and the buzzing string note that sounds in the Bass clef at the same time - that note is the D#, and it's the relationship between the D# and the A that's so offensive. It's not shown in the staff diagram.

Good night all! It's been fun today! I think it's funny that after all this discussion about the melodies I didn't see the V until Starbox pointed it out! I had a boss once who laughingly told me he thought musicians were generally non-visual. Ticked me off! Gee! I guess he may have been right after all!

Intended or not, that V is very fun!

So far you are correct. The interval between Ab and Eb is a Perfect Fifth.

quote:There are 7 half steps in a perfect 5th.

There aren't 7 half steps in a perfect fifth, there is 1. For example, in the key of C...G is a perfect fifth above C. C-D is a whole step. D-E is a whole step. E-F is a 1/2 step. F-G is a whole step. In the key of Ab, the same is true.

A scale is defined as a series of ascending or descending notes in a stepwise pattern. A major scale uses all the natural notes in an octave from beginning to end (in the key of C from C to C). The characteristics of the C major scale is the 1/2 step from the 3rd to 4th degress and from the 7th to the 1st degrees. The distance between the other notes is a whole step (or 2 1/2 steps). A major scale looks like this. C D E F G A B C (whole step, whole step, 1/2 step, whole step, whole step, whole step, 1/2 step). This would be much easier to describe if I had a chalkboard!! We won't even get into the related modes of the major scale...or the minor scales, harmonic minor, melodic minor, and pentatonic scales!!!

quote:Now, F flat is a strange note to hear with this combination.

An Fb? Now you have completely lost me!!

quote:My head is flipping through a mental index going back 14 years to my high school music theory class. An A flat and a E flat would be an augemented 5th.

An Ab and and Eb is a perfect Fifth.

quote:That is 8 half steps between the tones. Augemented chords are tonally stressed. If you know guiter you know the G7 chord and the C major chord are constantly used with one another. The C major resolves the "stress" feel of the 7th note being heard in the G chord. My idea is that the 8 1/2 steps in an augemented 5th (A flat and F flat) represents the DUPES and the ROYAL FOUR. Their symbolic chord has been resolved to a perfect fifth with the death of Zan, (7 1/2 steps for perfect fifth-- no hints of minor or major). If this is true, perhaps Liz's function, harmonically, is to determine the chord's third note. I mean the note between the A flat and the E flat. If major, Liz would be C. If minor it would be B flat.

I don't mean to be the one to say, no you're wrong...but although I give you an A+ for effort, the music theory above is totally incorrect. I don't even know where to begin! For example, the note between the Ab and the Eb...if major is indeed a C, but if minor is a B natural. I cannot even begin to get into the conversation about seventh chords, resolutions,tensions, and secondary dominant chords...but trust me when I say the actual theory is a lot more complicated than you would think!

In regards to the Blues which was being discussed earlier on this thread, I believe by Zara...Blues harmonies have their basis in early American church music. The primary cadence used in hymns of the Protestant church has been subdominant (with dominant cadence being of less importance). Subdominant cadence is traditionally called 'Plagal Cadence". Typical of plagal cadence is the sound of "A-men", used following most hymns. Thus, the primary chords found in blues are the I and IV chords (and occasionally the V7 chord). The basic scale used for blues melodies is a pentatonic (5 note) scale, but NOT the major pentatonic scale. The blues scale is NOT diatonic to the harmonies. The blues scale (scale degrees 1,b3,4,5,b7,1) can be seen in a minor pentatonic scale. The important characterstic of the blues scale is its exclusion of any half steps and the relationships it creates with the major key harmonies, the scale degrees b3 and b7 being the basis for the minor pentatonic scale create an unusual sound when supported by the major key harmonies. This melodic relationship results in what is called "blues notes".

Anyway, I don't mean to be the one to point out the inconsistencies in another's theory,...QFanny, especially, as you are usually the one inspiring me with your insights and eye for detail!!!!

{~}:}

One last thing...the interesting thing about the tritone...which is an augmented forth, that even if you invert it..and it turns into a diminished fifth...it is still at tri-tone. So.... You can compare the tritone to Liz. Even if Liz is inverted, or changed, in this lifetime, she is still going to be Max's true love no matter if she is human or alien!!

First, an augemented fifth would be from A flat to F: I basically got lost in my post.

In regards to F flat, that is the same as E. Just like C# is the same as D flat. I hope that helps.

When I said that there are 7 1/2 steps in a perfect fifth, I meant from A flat to A is one half step, from A to B flat is two half steps, from B flat to B is three half steps, from B to C is four half steps, from C to D flat is five half steps, from D flat to D is six half steps, and from D to E flat is seven half steps.... Another half step would be an augemented fifth right?

Basically, I was taught to count the half steps instead of the whole steps, but I understand what you are saying....

Geez, I'm sorry that I got so much of it wrong.

I noticed that the flashes Iz had about Tess began after she cleaned Grant's wound. The initial flash she got was very blurry and I think that somehow touching him triggered the flashes she got from/about Tess. I'm not sure what the flash Iz got from Grant was, I'll go back tomorrow and GraceKel it

I think I found another double letter connotation. Grant called Max Deputy Dog when he and Valenti went to Grant's hotel room. Am I right? Sorry if this was already mentioned.

Pearls. I saw many pearls in Surprise. Might be a coincidence, but I'll point it out anyway: CWW was wearing pearls, so was Iz and Max's mom, and I think Liz's shirt had little pearls on it too. I'm not sure if or what it might mean

moon maiden Thanx for the libra/air info. As a libra myself, a lot of things make sense now Ok, I feel kinda dumb saying this cuz you would think I would think I would know when my own sign begins and ends, but doesn't the libra cycle end the 22nd of Oct.? So wouldn't the 25th be the next sign? Please bop me on the head and correct me if I'm wrong

New episode next week! Can't wait finally, it looks like we'll get some answers and hopefully they'll tie Liz in too. BTW (not spoiler since promo aired) I noticed how they showed Michael and the guy who looks like him and I thought that perhaps this is where they got the human DNA from. So, that would mean that the other podsters would also resemble their DNA donors too, wouldn't it be interesting if Tess didn't really resembled her DNA donor, but Liz did. Perhaps Sheila Hubble? SPECULATION ONLY, I DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW ANYTHING THIS IS JUST MY WISHFUL THINKING

Nite now
Roxy

NoNoNoNoNoNoNO! I'm sorry I made you feel bad about it, that was SO NOT my intention! I just wanted to present the correct information...not prove you wrong!!!!!!

QFANNY, you have taught me plenty on these boards...please don't take that personally!!!

The Romeo and Juliet of Twilo

Basic thoughts leading up to this speculation: Larek says he attended Max's wedding, but did not say who he married. Larek also states that Max and his families were very close.(Romeo & Juliet's secret marriage) Mom sends Tess as Max's young bride, which we know from Katim's himself means not married yet(the engagement of Juliet to another man).

So here goes the theory:
Max and Twilo-Liz fall in love and marry in secret(forbidden love or whatever). Larek a good friend attends the wedding as a witness.

Mom arranges a marriage for Max with Tess. Max, instead of standing up to Mom right this minute, plays along hoping for a way out. He plays along well enough for Tess to believe he once loved her.

War breaks out and the 4 podsters are killed. They are cloned and sent to earth to be reborn.

Twilo-Liz upon hearing of Max's death, can not be separated from him even in death and plans her death and rebirth on earth(not necessarily as a hybrid, but maybe as a soul inhabiting a new body as some eastern religions believe we are all reborn. To find and be reunited with her love.

Larek tells Max that he is sorry to see him repeat the past because at the meeting there is no Liz but there is Tess. Larek thinks Max is again letting others dictate his life and not standing up so he can be with the woman he loves.

Maybe Future Max had it wrong about Tess or maybe he was right about Tess needing to stay with the group since she was engineered to compliment the other 3's powers, but maybe he was wrong in assuming that Tess and Max needed to be together, just that Tess needed to stay with the group or maybe only stay with the group until Liz develop her powers which were not being developed because she totally human but with an alien soul.

Okay, enough of Romeo and Juliet in reverse. I may be crazy, but I think it works.

Tess: (if her birthday is in May) Taurus the bull

--a fixed feminine earth sign that is ruled by Venus(Liz's handmaiden or devoted servant?)
--can be patient, strong-willed, tenacious, possessive and sensual
--sigil(sign or emblem) of Taurus looks like both the full and crescent moons both which signify fertility, also symbol for solidity and stubbornness

Ambigious: it's vilalty and male fertility associated with the sun & resurrection but it's horns can also represent lunar deities and death

--bull was dedicated to Venus in Ancient Greece, as well as other gods and goddesses

Western tradition: bull's strength is tainted with it characteristics of brutality, cruelty and lust

Interesting side note:
An eagle is depicted as a solar emblem in victorious conflict with a bull or lion which demonstrates the triumph of spiritual over earthly powers.

Max: Pisces the fish

mutable female water sign in the house of Neptune & Jupiter

The Ancient Greeks believe that Aphrodite(Venus) & Eros(Cupid) transformed themselves to escape Typhon(one of the titians) and were commemorated in this form in the sky.

The Sigil of Pisces represents the two gods but also has a more profound meaning. It is said to symbolize the human and cosmic worlds, bridged by the earth, human & spiritual nature, involution(act or instance of involving or entangling, involvement; something complicated) and evoultion. As well as human conflict and otherworldliness.

Very interesting:
Because they point in opposite directions, the twin fish represent the past and the future and the end of the zodiacal cycle looking towards the next which is Aries(and fits Michael fairly well)

Pisces are regarded as intuitive, adaptable and sensitive yet can display insecurity, ambivalence and dreaminess.

Fish are also linked to both male and female fertility; lunar dieties, creativity and inspiration. In Greco-Roman belief they were attributied to Aphrodite/Venue and the god of the deep, Poseidon/Neptune.

Neptune: in astro. is the sign of both the escapist and the idealist

Jupiter/Zeus: in astro. represents the soul supported by matter(the cross) I'm still a little confused by this and hopefully on Wends. when I get a scanner, I'll post a pic of the symbol for Jupiter but basically it's a 2 with an extended tail with a line going through the tail.

Okay, I know that this is very long, but I think Taurus fits Tess very well as well as Pisces does Max.

Oh, and Sunrise meantioned pearls. They are the birth stone for June and if I remember right are linked to the moon, the goddess of whom is Venus' mother, I think. Don't quote me on that.

But just a quick wrap up on my thoughts about Max with the whole Pisces thing. I think, especially more now with knowing some things behind his sign, that the Royal Four were sent to Earth not by chance. Pisces is too connected to Venus, love, changing and human conflict to think otherwise. And the Ides of March is a strange date as well. It goes along with the whole betrayal by a loved one like Ceaser, but it just seems so much more than that.

The connections to Venus are just too many and too pronounced in both signs to be ignored. As well as both the god of the skies, Jupiter/Zeus and the god of the seas, Poisdeon/Neptune. Venus is the daughter of Zeus and shares the symbol of the fish with her uncle Neptune. (Sorry if the difference in Greek and Roman names are confusing anyone. :confused

What does everyone else think? Any takers?

I didn't take time to analyze this (Nemo, are you out there somewhere?), but I think, MetaphysicalGirl, the problem with Qfanny's explanation is that she's talking as a Clarinetist. So, does it make sense if you "transpose" her post so the notes are either up a whole step (from b flat to c) or down a whole step (from c to b flat)?

And Qfanny, as a flute player, I (of course), want Liz to be middle C rather than b-flat. But if I ever get a b-flat footed flute, I'll reconsider.

Well, anyway, on rewatching Surprise:
Isabel's visions of Tess were very much like Max's of Liz in MITC, don't y'all agree? Especially the silent parts.

I definitely think Grant's wound was from the fence that later tore Isabel's gown. Maybe he didn't have any astro protection in his back pocket? Sorry , thinking about Liz's astral projection always makes me think of Zero's typo of Astro Protection.

I am now thinking that Nicko and Sorenson are one and the same--that "they" are a shapeshifter and the "protector" of the Dupes. I haven't worked out motives yet, though. But Nicko also "speaks" for Kvar, as he states in MITC. I haven't abandoned the idea that Tess is really Vilandra (based on silverhandprint.com, but there sure was a connection between Isabel & Grant, and then later between both Isabel and Lonnie & Nicko.

Next week's promos look a lot like the X-files before it turned into the Cult Files.

Charmed Kitten, great post on the planets of the birth signs of the characters. Since the writers assigned birthdays that were different than the actors', and since there are a lot of writers contributing, I think there definitely might have been some thought to it.

Elementary-pertaining to the four elements, earth, water, air and fire or to the greates forces of nature, elemental.

But in order to create anything from his primordial waters, Max needs Aries to transform it into the thunderbolt of creation.

Aries is ruled by Mars, the god of war, one of the lovers of Venus. It's a cardinal, masucline fire sign and represents uncontrolled engergy. It also represents beginnings in general, spring and a renewal of solar creative. Also represents the agressive ego. And Aries is another name for Mars.

So who is Max's Aries? I'd say Liz, but she doesn't fit the profile.

quote:Originally posted by CharmedKitten:
The Sigil of Pisces represents the two gods but also has a more profound meaning. It is said to symbolize the human and cosmic worlds, bridged by the earth, human & spiritual nature, involution(act or instance of involving or entangling, involvement; something complicated) and evoultion. As well as human conflict and otherworldliness.

Very interesting:
Because they point in opposite directions, the twin fish represent the past and the future and the end of the zodiacal cycle looking towards the next which is Aries(and fits Michael fairly well)

Did Max, by including Liz into the alien's secret, change the course of both Earth and Twilo? Bridging both worlds together and jump starting an evolution that no one really understands yet? Either human or Twilionians? But one that is ultimately necessary for the survival of both planets?

I think I just fried my brain. I'm going to go away and come back tomorrow. Maybe some one will have thought of something better. I think I've been looking at this for too long.

At the beginning of the first series, it was mentioned that all the powers and skills that the
podsters had were ones that humans possessed but had not mastered yet. My theory is,
that somewhere along the way, possibly when the reverse connection between Max and
Liz was formed that not only memories and visions were shared but knowledge aswell.
Is it possible that through Liz’s connection with Max, she downloaded (little matrix
theory there.. you know how they download skills...) the skills and knowledge needed to
use powers such as astral projection.

It was mentioned that many humans have the ability to astral project. But I don’t think
this explains Liz’s projections because she was able to direct where she goes and when..
whereas when normal people experience these projections, they have no pre-thought to
wanting to do it, and have no control over where they end up.

As for Tess’s picture in the destiny book being so different.... I think that is highly sus’. I
mean there is too much difference for it to be anything other than deliberate on behalf of
the writers.... like most of you, i don’t particularly like Tess... WHO THE HELL IS SHE
TO CHOOSE MAX’S DESTINY??!!??

Thats all for now, but be sure when I say... I’ll be back

Bex

Shapeshifter - thanks for transcribing the musical notes. I think it would be really fascinating if Max got musical "messages" from Liz in his flashes. After all - Venus is associated with music - right? And - I believe that music is used (theoretically) to communicate across language borders (thinking of Close Encounters gain and didnt we send music into space to try to contact aliens???)
The writers have a great set-up (whether it was intentional or not) to follow through with later if the choose.

Zara/Metaphysical/QFanny - your music theory has my head spinning!! Thanks for sharing your knowledge :-) And Zara - I am just an extremely visual person (hence my screencap obsession) - I think it is neat that together we discovered the V :-)

About Suprise:

The one thing I really noticed was that it seemed very likely that Courtney was sending the images to Isabel.
Before or after every single "flash" the camera immediately panned to a shot of Courtney - and she looked like she KNEW what was going on.

About the Hybrid chronicles - VERY interesting stuff - and heavily sci-fi.
Looks like larek will be back :-). Yippee! I was HOPING he wouldnt disppear into the Roswell black hole of non-returning characters. Here is hoping he doesnt get killed off.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox - I have to agree that after watching Surprise again last night I believe that Courtney was sending the visions, except for when Tess came bursting through the doors of the Crashdown: That was definitely a mindwarp from Tess. Also something else I noticed last night. The royals pods weren't exactly on the floor either. The top pods look like they were several feet off the ground, the similar to the dupes pods.
The Royals

The Dupes(which are considerably further off the floor)

I'm thinking the dupes where duped by their own people. That they were put in New York to act as a decoy for the real royals. And that even the shapeshifters/protectors didn't know who the true royals were, and that their orders where to protect them like they were the true royals. Or maybe they did know, and that was the protecor's mission in New York was too make sure they were as much like their orignal selves as possible. Also it's interesting that Lonnie stated she was the only one that remembered her past. In MITC there where 4 pods, but TPTB only showed us three. If you GraceKel the scene where Max first spots the pods you can see the the edge of the black bar that's over the top of the pod in the corner. Then the camera pans to a full shot of the remaining three pods. Maybe they did this to signify Zan's death.

Anyways, I loved the theories about the music. It's great to know that someone could sort it out. I took music for 3 years and I'm still a bit lost, as far as the theories as they relate to Liz etc.,

I'm also very excited about the Hybrid Chronicles!!! I'm sure this thread will be on fire after the next new episode!!

Sunrise: October 25 (now we know for sure this is Iz's birthday) is considered to be the Libra-Scorpio cusp, and is therefore influenced by both Libra and Scorpio. I am gathering more info for Oct. 25 and will have it soon.

OK, here's some additional info on Max:

Water signs: Water sign people apprehend the world primarily through the feeling mode. Emotional considerations often take an overriding priority in their lives. Sensitivity to criticism and rejection is very high. Because their feelings run deep they are often serious and profound individuals. Water sign people become very deeply involved in love relationships, so much so that they often have trouble detaching themselves.

Pisces: Pisces can be overly flexible and accomodating. The charm of this sign is unmistakable, as is its inward and often profound attitudes. Belief figures strongly in the emotional sensibilities of Pisces. The emotions of Pisces run deep, as is symbolized by the fish. Note on fish--Jesus Christ was ofter symbolized by the fish, as was Vishnu, the chief god of the Hindus. Someone once mentioned that they thought Max might have been seen as a religious figure on Twilo. I am becoming more convinced that this is so, or that Max may be intended to be the "great father" of a new race, with Liz the "great mother".

March 15: The number 6 is ruled by Venus and Pisces is ruled by Neptune. People ruled by the number six tend to be charismatic and even inspire worship in others.

This is getting long, so I will post stuff for Tess, and some info on Virgo, which is what I believe Liz is. I agree that Michael is Aries, he fits the info I have EXTREMELY well.

Two nights ago I was watching the making of the new version of "The Great Gatsby".

This may seem off subject but bear with me.

A screenwriter for the movie was talking about how he wanted the character depicted. He had each character defined as earth, wind, fire, and water. In each scene this screenwriter made sure that there was something in each scene to depict their nature. Example: Daisy was Air/Wind, so in the first scene she is shown driving in her car with the wind in her hair and leaves and flowers floating around her in slowmo. Gatsby was water, and shown lounging in or by his pool. Nick was earth, meaning he was grounded and the advice giver. The other girl (her name escapes me!) was fire and was shown as a smoker.
Thought this was a great example of how seriously the screenwriters take their job. Little things do mean a lot!!!

Sorry if I bored anyone.

This has nothing to do with Liz's myth I just wanted to know if anyone else caught that since most everyone here GraceKel the episodes

Roxy

I thought of something after viewing Surprise last night about Liz's continuing role as "saver of the day". While watching the scene where Liz is speaking with Mrs. Evans (after Isabel went in search of Tess), I thought it was odd to say that Is left because she spilled punch on her dress. I would have said that Is's headache got worse, and she went home or just that she wasn't feeling well in general. I guess that would be my first reaction when confronted - "um...she's sick!" Then I realized how dumb that would be because it would send Mrs. Evans home immediately, you know? Initially, I also thought Liz was making Is out to be very shallow (given Mrs. Evans' response about how concerned Is is about her looks). Then I actually thought about it.

Instead of giving the obvious excuse (and the one that I think many people would give in that situation), Liz gave a very believable one that was convincing for Mrs. Evans, that showed Liz's insight into the way Is thinks and her personality (slightly vain, not in a bad way), and that also gave the others the needed time to find Tess. I guess my point is that Liz is a quick thinker on her feet. She always seems to come up with a plan or a way for the aliens to get done what needs to get done. In addition to quick thinking, she also has insight into other people - personality, what to say to whom, etc. The small details like that just keep leading me to believe that there really is more than meets the eye with regard to her role in the grand scheme of things. I think those details go hand in hand with being a leader (or at least a co-leader with Max).

Ok, sorry for rambling. Just wanted to put that out there.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Back to astrological signs and their significance:

Tess could be either a Taurus or a Pisces. CharmedKitten did a great job of describing them both, so I will just add some info on Earth signs and on both days that have been mentioned for Tess's birthday.

Earth signs: Earth sign people apprehend the world primarily through the sensation mode. Their orientation is decidedly empirical, as they tend to judge the quality of things through the senses of sight, hearing, taste, smell, and touch. They have a great capacity to wait and endure. Earth signs enjoy physical contact and often have a well developed tactile sense.

May 7: Taurus--The seventh day is ruled by Neptune, and Taurus ruled by Venus. Neptune is the ruling planet of visions, dreams, and psychic phenomena. Those born on this day must guard against losing touch with reality. The influence of Venus makes May 7 people ultra-impressionable (by Nasedo, perhaps?).

March 7: Pisces and water sign--The seventh day and Pisces are both ruled by Neptune. March 7 people can be rather unstable (sound like anyone we know?). The strong Neptunian influences can make for sensitive, dreamy, and imaginitive people who at times have trouble focusing their energies.

Help!! Which date sounds more like Tess??? I have thought about it, and our cause would be furthered best if Tess was a Pisces. This would make Tess and Max the twin fish (not sure of the implication here, any thoughts?), Isabel air, Michael fire, and Liz earth. Remember that water and earth are a fertile combination that is symbolized by the DRAGON!

This is the reason I think Liz has to be a Virgo, the VIRGIN:

Virgo--also an earth sign--Virgos are flexible and mentally oriented, quick and analytical, and highly dependable, service-oriented and stable. Their deep sensuous desires may be revealed in more selective and secretive ways (flashes anyone?). Virgos judge events by results. Also, from first-hand experience (I am married to a Virgo) I can tell you that Virgos tend to be critical of the ones they love, but it is loving criticism usually meant to guide, not hurt (Liz's speech to Max in ARCC comes to mind).

Sorry this was so long! Let me know what you think!

I think of Isabel as the moon. The moon is usually a symbol for mother-goddesses such as Isis in Ancient Egypt and the Greco-Roman goddesses Hecate and Artemis/Diana. Even the Virgin Mary is linked to the moon.

It is the symbol of the cycle of life, death and rebirth. The full moon signifies completeness and unity, the half moon death and the waning moon demonic powers and the crescent and waxing moon resurrection from death, creation and fertility.

It signifies water and female fertility and represents the unconscious. It is also widely believed to have power over humanity's fate.

But in some African, Native American, Oceanic, Maori and Japanese tribes, the Moon is a masculine symbol.

I see Isabel playing the role of mother much more than Liz. She plays the role of the intellect, the innocent and the one who knows and sees justice. But I also link Isabel to Diana/Artemis. The goddess of nature, the hunt and childbirth. She was a huntress and held herself off from others.

I have to go and get ready for work, but I'll be back tonight to add somemore. I have to stop by B&N on the way home. I've used all my resources at home.

Yin=earth=feminine Yang=heaven or sky=male

Sun is made of fire and is the essence of yang. In its breast is a 3-footed raven. I believe Starbox mentioned the raven earlier.

Moon is made of water and is the essence of yin. The Chinese believed a hare and toad exist in the moon.

The yin is opposed to the yang, and yet they exist only through one another. The Chinese version of creation that I read began with chaos (symbolized by an egg--wasn't this pictured with Liz somewhere?) and out of chaos came yin (earth) and yang (sky). As a result of their conflicting and complimentary interaction, all things and all beings in the universe gradually formed and took their place. Liz and Max's relationship, I think, could be described as conflicting at times, but mostly complimentary. I like the idea that yin(Liz) and yang(Max) can only exist through one another.

Also, the silvery-white light associated with the moon reminds me of Liz's appearance in New York in MITC, and of the sweater she wore to midnight services in ARCC.

When I mentioned earlier that Max might be the "Great Father" and Liz the "Great Mother", it was just a theory that Max and Liz might be intended to begin a new race that would be the savior of both humans and Twilonians. I don't think of Liz as a mother-figure to the others, she is more of a leader.

I really don't know where I'm going with this, except to say that maybe Liz is supposed to be connected with the moon. Any thoughts????

We all know that 2000 was the year of the dragon, well 2001 is the year of the snake It runs from Jan. 24 2001 to Feb. 11 2002. The year of the snake will be one of innergrowth spirituality and discovering the reasons behind things. An artistic and creative year with pleasure, enlightment, and beauty. Beware the green eyes of jealousy in 2001, as snakes (no, not her or maybe) are also quite possessive of that which they call their own. Carnal passions and deliciously scandalous romances abound.

The sign of the dog in 2001 (this is more Iz since she just turned 18 so...). The Dog couldn't be more happy to get rid of the dragon year, is recuperating and bouncing back. Providing mental oasis fro anxious heart. Loyalty and skepticism play a big part and worry and pessisism is replaced by earthy sexuality and elegant pleasures. She/he will continue to find your own happiness thru improving fate of others. Love throws its bolts and love at first sight could happen when least expect it

Any thoughts?
I'll be back with some more in a bit
Roxy

I love astrology. (Please don't tease me, I know it sounds wierd.) I have been doing my friends astrological charts for years, and have gotten pretty good at interpreting them. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that your "sun sign" which is what everyone considers their astrological sign is how you are seen on the surface. This is only how people see you - nothing more. You can learn alot about a person by taking their entire chart into consideration, and looking at the placement of all of the planets on their date of birth.

The more precise the date of birth (meaning if you narrow it down to the exact minute) the better the chart will be.

I'm going to take a look at some charts, and get back to you with my findings.

First - some Romeo and Juliet quotes:

Juliet: "Oh swear not by the moon. the inconstant moon, that monthly changes in her circled orb - lest that thy love prove likewise variable"

Romeo: "What light thru yonder window breaks? It is the East and Juliet is the sun. Arise fair sun and kill the envious moon who is already sick and pale with grief that thou, her maid art far more fair than she."

Tess is often seen in the moonlight - almost all of her significant scenes with Max have taken place OUTSIDE in the moonlight (the confrontation in Foursquare, the EOTW scene, the scene in AN where she says she remembers him loving her, the kiss outside the crashdown).

Tess "illuminated" by moonlight:

When she first shows up in Crazy and Michael and Max tell Isabel not to trust her - we see a moon on the wall.

Tess also has the ring with the backwards "C"'s (crescent moons) - and her destiny book has the "Black moon" symbol on it.

Here is some of the mythology of the moon - I try to focus on Inca/Mayan and Native American themes - since Roswell has mentioned those sources as significant to alien mythology.

*The moon has no light of its own - it merely reflects the sun (I think Liz has lots of light of her own)

*The moon is usually associated with death dieties in religions.

*The Mayan moon goddes Ixchel was the suns companion - but also his evil, hostile aspect.

*The Aztecs believed the moon to be the daughter of the rain-god - she was also associated with fire.
(screencap is of Tess/rain connection - no fire connection image needed - LOL!)

*The Inca regarded the moon with different symbolic meanings that evoloved with time. Originally she was a goddess unconnected with the sun, then she was seen as the suns wife - and finally in her evolutiion it was thought that she was his INCESTOUS SISTER.

The symbolism of the MOON in the Tarot is as follows (there has been some lengthy discussion about a Roswell/Tarot connection on the Representations and Interpretations board):
"The moon represents the sullying of the spiritual by the material, lonliness, depression, bigotry, treachery, false security,deceptive appearances,misdirection, theft by servants or close associates,worthless promises,illusions, traps, cheating and delusion".

*The moon is associated with fertility - and Tess's reason for existence (she says) is to make little Max babies. The moon goddes is also associated with the SPIDER. Could Tess be the female spider that will bite her mates head off after breeding??????

**DISCLAIMER**
While I fully believe that this was the direction the writers intended for Tess's character last season - they seem to have been doing some major revisions. Whether they are trying to make her good - or are just trying to throw off the viewers so her betrayal will come as a shock - only time will tell. But I do think she was (and still is) written with moon-goddess symbolism.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

kristine888: I love astrology too!! (We're not geeks or anything, we just enjoy astrology) Your mention of the planets' alignment on the date of birth sounds particulary intriguing. I can't wait to see what you find!

Starbox: I see your point now! I have some stuff on Navajo beliefs about the sun and moon, about twins (thinking twin fish here), and about someone they called CHANGING WOMAN. I will get it organized and share tomorrow!

Well, since I was trained on the piano, and now sing (baritone: tenor and/or bass), how about explaining how a pitch can be one note on one instrument, and another on a different instrument?

And, might I add:
As Zan found out, if you don't C# you'll Bb.

I started with Tess, since she seems to be hiding something.

Her moon sign reveals her "inner self" and is what is beneath her surface. Her moon sign is in Pisces. Although this tends to make someone EXREMELY LOYAL, people with their moon in pisces tend to see the world thru rose colored glasses. They tend to interpret things as they would like to see things rather than how they really are. Although her emotions are not seen on the surface, she instinctively will have an emotional reaction. They also tend to escape into a private world of imagination. She will do everything she can to make a "mate" happy, even if she does not get an equivalent return from the other person. At the same time she feels vulnerable, and has built up an array of defenses to avoid being hurt.
Interesting point is that people with the moon in Pisces are intuitive, and know things that others cannot comprehend. They also are more likely to have psychic abilities. Though they may seem confident and in charge, people with strong wills and opinions can lead them in the wrong direction.

Venus is pretty much her "sex appeal". Venus is in Gemini, (by my rough calculations) and that is when Venus has its most flirtatious influence. Those with Venus in Gemini have a lighthearted attitude towards sex, and usually more than 1 lover.

I know Venus's position seems to contradict the Moon's impact. However, a true chart would reveal which has the most influence over Tess.

Mars, which controls forcefulness and agression is in Taurus. Bull sign. Enough said.

I hope I haven't bored anyone. I was just so excited to be able to share something.

Were you all as excited as I was after watching the new promo last night? And, of course, I had to GraceKel it. There is a ton of things going on in there that you can't catch at normal speed. I was happy to see that Liz was in there. But there are numerous other people that we haven't met yet. It looks like we'll have an exciting ride to take the next 4 eps.
*
*
*
Promo...
Did you notice Grant is back again?
Did you catch the 1935 date on the old black & white pic of Michael-lookalike? And what kind of outfit was he wearing? It kind of looked like a uniform. Perhaps pilot?
It does look like Larek is back, doesn't it?
And it appears to me, also, that the next four eps may answer some of our questions about where the human DNA came from. Afterall, they did call them the "Hybrid Chronicles". And if you've downloaded the promo from Vidiot, you'll notice that the title of the promo is "Human Legacy". Plus there are those cool effects at the end with the blood vessels/or DNA? and cells, not to mention the obvious duplicate picture of Michael from 1935.
So if the pic is from 1935, this would mean the aliens have definitely visited before. Hmm...

Qfanny - Thanks!

Starbox - That poster you found in the background is great. And fascinating discussion of pregnancy and pods.

Metaphysicalgrl - loved the discussion on souls.

Zara - I also noticed their use of the word dupe and its double meaning.
quote:Originally posted by Zara:
Dupe - n. duplicate
Dupe - v. trick, hoax, deceive by underhanded means, intent to delude by means of a ruse or fraud, contriving an elaborate imposture in order to deceive...

quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
As Zan found out, if you don't C# you'll Bb.
Too funny!

Catch ya later!

The Romeo and Juliet of Twilo

Basic thoughts leading up to this speculation: Larek says he attended Max's wedding, but did not say who he married. Larek also states that Max and his families were very close.(Romeo & Juliet's secret marriage) Mom sends Tess as Max's young bride, which we know from Katim's himself means not married yet(the engagement of Juliet to another man).

So here goes the theory:
Max and Twilo-Liz fall in love and marry in secret(forbidden love or whatever). Larek a good friend attends the wedding as a witness.

Mom arranges a marriage for Max with Tess. Max, instead of standing up to Mom right this minute, plays along hoping for a way out. He plays along well enough for Tess to believe he once loved her.

War breaks out and the 4 podsters are killed. They are cloned and sent to earth to be reborn.

Twilo-Liz upon hearing of Max's death, can not be separated from him even in death and plans her death and rebirth on earth(not necessarily as a hybrid, but maybe as a soul inhabiting a new body as some eastern religions believe we are all reborn. To find and be reunited with her love.

Larek tells Max that he is sorry to see him repeat the past because at the meeting there is no Liz but there is Tess. Larek thinks Max is again letting others dictate his life and not standing up so he can be with the woman he loves.

Maybe Future Max had it wrong about Tess or maybe he was right about Tess needing to stay with the group since she was engineered to compliment the other 3's powers, but maybe he was wrong in assuming that Tess and Max needed to be together, just that Tess needed to stay with the group or maybe only stay with the group until Liz develop her powers which were not being developed because she totally human but with an alien soul.

Okay, enough of Romeo and Juliet in reverse. I may be crazy, but I think it works.

All quotes taken from __The Goddess: Creation, Fertility, and Abundence. The Soveireignty of woman myths and archetypes[__ by Shahrukh Hussein
Text from the book in BOLD my thoughts in regular type. (I emphasized keywords in CAPS)

African SERPENT worshipping priestess-sisterhoods believed that the first king was a god, and had his own store of magical powers. He deserved his right to rule only from his marriage to a DIVINE BRIDE. "The Mbangalala of Angola tell of the hero Chibinda Llunga, founder of the Lunda dynasty. Chibinda Llunga became a king when the Lunda quee, Lueji, who was descended from the primordial SERPENT fell in love with him and told the Lunda elders that he would rule in his place. Lyeji subsequently became sterile, and had to give Chibinda Llunga a new wife to bear him children..."

We had it backwards! Tess was the original snake-bride and Liz was the second bride. Maybe this could have been a prophesy on "Twilo" (when are we going to find out that real name already???). Maybe Tess was Vilandra and in order to prevent herself from getting the shaft and having Zan marry Liz escense she had them killed and had herself sent along to earth for a second chance.
OK so I don't actually think that happened but I thought it was interesting and could definately be another theory to add to the Mythologist canon!

In the Akkadian Enuma Elish , a political parable that was written around 1750 BC, the goddess Tiamat, who was salt water, and her consort, Apsu, who was sweet, produced gods who remained within Tiamat. They fought for supremacy until Apsu decided to kill them. However, Tiamat's children learned of his plan and Ea, "Earthly Wisdom", killed and replaced Apsu. In order to avenge her husband, Tiamat "mothered a new brood" of "Snarling dragons" to fight Ea, but Ea's son Marduk SHOT HER IN THE STOMACH, and split her womb, so that he could remake the world she had already created.

I thought the shooting in the stomach part was VERY interesting as Liz was shot in the stomach which was the catalyst for the podsters finding out more about themselves. Could the shooting be intentional as some of you have suggested, in order to create the world again. I think this is important. I think Liz is the mother of all humantiy somehow. Maybe after "The End of the World" Future Liz and Future Max survive and create a new population of hybrids on earth? Just a thought!!

The dual, or morning and evening appearence of Venus often leads to its association with twins.

Where is dupe Liz???? Or Zan's Liz! Or maybe the twins are Max and Dupe Zan?

For Signs and Symbols folks-more about Gnosticism
Gnostics believed that "the divine combines both male and female,a nd that the spiritual seach of humankind entails a quest to unite them." The followers believed that knowledge was the only way to appraoch the divine. To most Gnostics, those who aspired to the Divine were spiritual and good. Those who desired physical pleasure as an end in itself were materialistic and evil. The individual with the most spirituall potentional was the one who sought the Divine through experience with the physical

According to this theory, Max might be the Divine and Liz is the spirtual one and Tess the physical one.

More on the Heor's Journey... "The Goddess is linked to the heroic quest in many levels. She may be present at the very beginning, as an initiator of the hero's journey" Liz getting shot "or she may appear at a later stage, helping, guiding, or throwing obstacles in the hero's way in order to test him." End of the World, Max in the City At the conclusion of his journey, the hero, or initiate, helped and guided by the goddess , may attain a goal that is material, psychological, or spiritual."Thus we have Liz's importance to the alien mythology!!!!

Liz is changed ... The Changing Woman is a female deity of the Navajo and Apache Native Americans. In myths of the Navajo, she is" "Estsan Atlehi" ("Mother of All") who changes her clothes four times a year as she emerges from the four doors of her heavenly abode to create the seasons. She rises with the spring flowers, matures with the summer, ages with the fall and goes to sleep in the winter. Changing woman represents all the phases of the female, but most particularly the moment when A GIRL TURNS INTO A WOMAN" Sexual Healing? "This transition us believed to be BENEFICIAL to the ENTIRE GROUP" Liz is helping the podsquad... she found the orbs though that may not be beneficial
It was from Changing Woman that humans received knowledge and wisdom"
Change that to "It was from LIZ that MAX recieved knowledge and wisdom. I LOVE this theory! it ties in to everything we've been discussing about how Liz is the "brains behind the operation" type for the podsters. I also think the Native American part is important as well. Perhaps Liz is part Native American? I definately think she embodies characteristics of "Chaning Woman." I think the seasons are wrong for our Roswell canon but the rest is right on!

And finally The Female Essence (there's that pesky word again! What does it mean???) Let's find out!
"In 7th century India, mystical texts called Tantras began to promulgate the idea of Shakto: raw, female energy, the primordial power without which the gods could not function... In addition to believing that the Goddess is the essential, universal energy who activates and protects the make divinities with her prodigious strength, many Tantras also define the Goddess as Mahavidya-Great WISDOM." ... Assertiveness is one of the most obvious qualities of women or deities who embody the female essence."

Sounds like our Liz!

Well I hope you've enjoyed reading what I found. Please feel free to comment, agree or disagree with me! (but please don't be mean!)

Pooh

And, might I add:
As Zan found out, if you don't C# you'll Bb. Hi Reg. I suspect Nemo could help us here. All I remember is that the notes do have different names when written for the b-flat instruments (sax, clarinet, etc.). I think it's that middle C (on the piano--it's low C on the flute) is read as a Bb if you're a clarinet player, but somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. BTW, middle c is played an octave lower on the guitar.

very cute on the C# Bb
quote:Originally posted by redhawk:
...after watching the new promo last night...I had to GraceKel it. There is a ton of things going on in there that you can't catch at normal speed. I was happy to see that Liz was in there....
...
Did you notice Grant is back again?
Did you catch the 1935 date on the old black & white pic of Michael-lookalike? And what kind of outfit was he wearing? It kind of looked like a uniform. Perhaps pilot?...I didn't catch any of that. Thanks, RedHawk!

moon maiden thanx, I hope I can contribute some useful info. rather than just lurk

since numbers have been often mentioned over and over again, I found some really KOOL stuff. There was more, but I only put what I thought might be relevant.

Number 1- unity, beginning, goal-striving, independent, courage, leader, self-reliant, pioneer, positive
Tarot- wizard
astrology- sun, aries, mars, mercury
Tree of life- kether, crown, (will) kingdom
element- fire/sun
musical note- middle C
months- Jan. and October

Number 2- Duality, division, harmony, diplomacy, patience, psychic, etc.
tarot- High priestess
astrology- moon, taurus, vulcan
Tree of life- chochma, wisdom
element- water
musical note- D
months- Feb and Nov

I gotta go to dinner, but I'll be back with the rest on numbers 4,5,and 6.
Roxy

Meg - I really like your Romeo and Juliet anaology. Romeo and Juliet is one of my all time favorite works of literature. I could go an and on and on about it :-)
I would love to see TPTB expand on the Romeo and Juliet storyline and incorporate more parallels. And I would REALLY love Larek to be their Friar Lawrence.
I am SOOOOOO glad Larek is coming back in the hybrid chronicles!!!!!

Dayneen - I forgot to comment on the pod chambers - you are right - the foursquare pods do have an upper level - but at least they have a shelf-like thing to step out on - and they are not more than a few feet off the ground. Looking at the two pod systems - can you see how the podsters looks like it is a living organism (or at least has an energy source) while the dupes pods just look slapped on a wall? What nourished the dupes for approx. 30 years??

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I am not upset over the corrections to my music (mis) theory. I was going off of information that is 14 years old anyway. I knew some of it would be wrong. I just underestimated the passion you all had for music.

I would prefer that my Roswell theories hold water... But what I was trying to point out with the AEF triangle in Missing. Is that
A flat to E flat is a perfect Fifth 5
I still think F flat is a real note (E) and that A flat to E flat is an augemented fifth or 8 half steps. think 8 pods
When Zan died the tones become harmonically perfect. The perfect fifth has 7 half steps 7 podsters. 7 PODS were perfect.
Liz is the tritone.

Side notes:
I can't sing.
I can't play the piano.
I have no musical taste, I'll listen to anything - even Alice Cooper.
But I can dance, dance, dance!

Not that any of the above is important. Hope this wrench doesn't destroy the history modern music.

Anyway - note the promo image:

Here is Isabel in front of a wall hanging in Micheals apartment - look familiar?

Here are Max and Liz in Sexual Healing - see the hybrid hanging in back of them?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I still think F flat is a real note (E) and that A flat to E flat is an augemented fifth or 8 half steps.

A flat to E flat is a Perfect Fifth!!!

( ducks and runs for cover. I've already apologized profusely to Qfanny on my comments about her music theory!)

There are certain instruments whose notated pitch is different from their sounded pitch. Most of these instruments are identified by the letter name of their fundamental instrument, ie: Bb trumpet. The letter name identifies the pitch class that is sounded when a notated C is played. There are other instruments, such as the flute, whose noated pitch is the same as their sounded pitch.

Now transposition is defined as the rewriting or performance of music at a pitch other than the original one in which it was written. This entails raising or lowering each pitch of the original music by precisely the same interval. This is usually done to accomodate the ranges of singers.

Hope this info helped...

{~}:}

This is taken from theddd.com as one of the promo shots for to serve and protect.

Now is it just me -- or is that an alien in a buddha pose in the upper right hand corner? Are we going to have to revisit our Buddha conversations. I'm game if you are!!!

Number 4- practical, orderly, patient, logical, loyal, builder
tarot- emperor
astrology- uranus, cancer, earth
Tree of life- chesed, love (mercy)
element- Earth
musical note- F#
months- April

Number 5- Adventurous, change, freedom, exploration, variety, sensuality, unattached, curious, knowledge seeker, knowledge teacher, traveler, periodicity, imaginative
tarot- Hiero phant
astrology- mercury, venus, leo, taurus
Tree of life- Geburah, severity (power)
element- Air, fire
musical note- G
months- May

I italized the stuff that pertains to Liz as we see her, the Fifth element, some of the other things kinda conflict with some of the theories, but we can untangle some of it. I still have to go back and look up what some of these things mean I'm just putting it out on the table for now.

Number 6- Harmony, beauty, nurturing, love, marriage, family, responsibility, understanding, sympathy, healing, empathic, perfectionist, order, duty, comfort, service
tarot- lovers
astrology- venus, virgo, gemini
Tree of life- Tiphereth, beauty
element- earth, air
musical note- C
month- June

I'm not sure where I'm trying to go with all this, I just thought it was interesting and yes, some stuff does overlap, but...

Any takes?

Roxy

P.S. Along with the stuff I found on the numbers, I also found AURAS too. But decided to not put it since they're not really part of the show, only the book series. But I can put it up if anyone wants to see them, it's just the color auras that pertain to what number.

Pearl:

planet-moon; elements-water; deities-Venus, Diana, Neptune
Powers-love, money, protection and luck

Mystically: symbolize the moon, water, the center of creation and the universe; linked to the various manifestations of the goddess, the summation of all that is female, creative and nuturing.

Dragons and pearls are closely associated in Chinese thought.

Rose in Victorian thought

Planet-Venus; Element-water;
Magical association: adoration, good fortune, psychic dreams

Roses were originally believed to have been born of Aprodite's blood when her foot was stuck by a thorn while aiding Adonis.

In the upright position:
Red-love & passion which is accepted and returned
White-clarity of thought and intentions

In the reverse position:
Red-sign of love gone astray and probably angry tempers
White-signifies that someone is not being totally honest in their dealings with you, therefore caution is urged.

I'll be back later with more on the signs that we've came up with.

Maybe they should start dating again first.

Even if they did, would a half human child of Max be heir to the throne on Twilo? Would the Twilonians accept such a thing?

In the reverse position:
Red-sign of love gone astray and probably angry tempers
White-signifies that someone is not being totally honest in their dealings with you, therefore caution is urged.

And it was after Max gives Liz red roses changed to white, that their love goes astray and Liz starts being dishonest with Max, even though her intentions are pure.

How horrible it is to have to betray the one you love to save them.

Make me want to

I can't read music so I will bow down to someone else's expertise on this musical notes stuff--but it would be very Close Encounters of them wouldn't it?

Grants birthday-SURPRISE ATTACK? Pearl Harbor 12/7 this will blow my S theory which has been holding up so far.

Max Evans 3-15-83 Ides of March(betrayal-assassination)

Tess Harding 3-7-83 eight days B4 Max's birthday--inconsistent with their so called memories hmmmmm?

Starbox--I agree with you about Tess's multi personalities---the writers one minute have it this way and the next she's Betty Crocker very frustrating.

WR Sheila Hubble the dupe Liz-interesting

Metaphysicalgrl--yes I noticed the buhdda early on in the season.

Sea gods and goddesses were often shapshifters; the shapeshifting goddess of Sparta was often dipicted as bound in chains. This talent for metaphoisis combined with the imagery of chains suggest that she was a form of the primordial Great Goddess. She is the mediatrix or guide to the deepest layer of the unconscious. But Venus was married to the god of forge, who was lame, Vulcan. But she had many affairs, her most famous were with Mars, the god of war, and Adonis.

And Venus was very jealous of other woman, especially Psyche who her son, Cupid fell in love with and married. She was also very greedy. The goddess of love, when still untamed, is primal, sexual and instinctual. She is more concerned with love than relationship. But I'm not ready to link her to Tess either.

But take a look at this about the moon.

The moon controls 'the wandering course of the sun and the very power of his rays.' There is not one goddess of the moon, almost all are linked to an aspect or manifestation of it. But mainly linked to Diana.

The moon is associated with memory, represents our feelings, habit patterns and personal unconscious.

The interplay between the moon and the sun constitutes a harmonious relationship that strengthens both heart and mind, rathr than attempted to be all solar(head) or all luner(emotion).

I'm not sure what to make of this yet though. I'll have to look deeper into it. Does any body have any ideas from this? Or anything else?

metaphysicalgirl: Having not read your previous discussion about the Buddha, I'm not sure what you are referring to but I swear that I saw a white image of the Buddha in the last scene of "Surprise" when the granolith was being shown. It looked to me like the Buddha was sitting in the classic lotus position on top of the granolith (when it was photographed from above). Has this been discussed or was I just having precognitive visions of the "Buddha boy"?

TVPooh, love the post.

Last note (pun) on music: ***sigh*** so if i'm to ever get it straight about how clarinet & sax music translates, it's not going to be on the Roswell message boards. Ah well, at least that makes sense.

So Redhawk says Grant is returning? I am retracting my Grant=Nicko theory & replacing it with Grant = the temp for Kvar.

I think the promo was very interesting! I Grace Kelled it, and there is lots of interesting stuff that would never be caught at normal speed. I don't see Liz much, but ... I hoping for some answers - hopefully, more answers than new questions!

I'll be back, but I have to sleep now. I've been swamped with work, so my brain can't focus on much Roswell analysis. But the new episodes will bring a renewed energy, I'm sure!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Charmed Kitten -
Rather than disagree with you - as an English teacher/major - let me share with you the basic process I use for literary interpretation.

First of all - we can MAKE a work of literature (assuming Roswell is a work of literature since it is theatre) mean "anything". The way we do this is by finding a symbol (like QFanny's fun "Rocky Racoon" interpretation :-) - BTW - there is a thread for these types of theories (Representations&Interpretations) - and then going back and "proving" with certian bits if text how they fit into that bits and pieces of text. (BTW - people do this all the time to "prove" that the Bible says or doesnt say something - it is called "text proofing".
The role of true literary interpretation is to take the symbols and themes that exist in a work of literature and find out what they mean in the context of the overall cannon of the work.
So - Liz is seen with Venus imagery and is actually referred to in the text as Venus over and over again. I spend alot of time looking at the set decoration of her bedroom - and she doesnt have a single moon that I can find in there (and moons are a very popular "celestial" decorative image - I have to think the omission was intentional). She DOES have a SUN mirror (That is shown in just about every episode) and she is seen in more than one epidose with SUNFLOWERS. BTW - she also has a whole lot of butterflies in her room.
Therefore - although Venus may have some negative (jealous) connotations - I think we can interperet Liz's symbolism as being influenced by Venus and by the Venus archetype (I also think she is associated with the sun -just as Juliet was and Max is).
While not every detail of Venus will be a "perfect fit" for Liz - she is definately meant to be a "venus figure"

As for the moon - this is not as blatant imagery as Venus and Liz - but if you look historically at the archetypal imagery of the moon - it is not positive. And the moon godesses and sun gods are not seen as a harmonious, loving dieties.

I believe Tess is shown with moon symbols or in moonlight - therefore I think we can interpetret her in the context of the moon.

Does that make any sense???

BTW - anyone who thinks we are reading too much into set design - EW occasionally shows a set and interviews a set designer - this week they have a feature on the set designer for OZ. It includes details like the prison warden being a Hitler-type and they originally had a swastika in his office but felt it was too obvious so they have nazi-type books on his bookshelf and they make sure his pin-ups are always of blue eyed blonds. Anyone who has doubted the care that gets taken with every small detail should read this. :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

A couple of other observactions:
1. is that a snake basket on top of the headboard?

2. Aren't the covers reminiscent of something about the pod chamber?

Starbox, thanks also for your suggestions about literary analysis and its role.

"The role of true literary interpretation is to take the symbols and themes that exist in a work of literature and find out what they mean in the context of the overall canon of the work. "

One of the marks of a really fine story imo is when the work presses the reader to search for interpretations. It's central to my love of this story!

The story is the thing!

Except that it is not Grant, but Nicko who 'warns' Isabel. And now that you draw it to my attention, why would N--an enemy--'warn' I? Perhaps because he wants her to mate with himself instead of Kvar, with the motive being to take over the throne.

And hopefully in the next 4 weeks we'll get at least a clue as to what the political necessity was of the Tess/Max marriage. Although if Original Max actually loved Original Tess, then it would indicate his capacity for love. But then maybe 'love' is only a human thing, foreign to Twilo. But I am still holding to the theory that Twilo and the other planets are colonies of Future Earthlings that have gone back in time as a function (in part) of space travel.

adebaran, (see below)
Hmmm...the eagles were associated with the Skins, weren't they? Or was that only the Phoenix?

BTW, the pic is from www.astr.ua.edu

[/b]Except that it is not Grant, but Nicko who 'warns' Isabel. And now that you draw it to my attention, why would N--an enemy--'warn' I? Perhaps because he wants her to mate with himself instead of Kvar, with the motive being to take over the throne.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Point taken Shapeshifter - I revise my earlier post to say "Unless Isabel isnt REALLY Vilandra OR Nikolas isnt REALLY speaking "for" Khivar"
Oh the tangled web they weave :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I totally agree with you. I think that if they had a child, it would solve all of their problems. Except for Tess, but then she can date Kyle.

Tess Harding 3-7-83 eight days B4 Max's birthday--inconsistent with their so called memories hmmmmm?

I thought on Zero's first page, it had Tess' birthday listed as 5-7-83. I thought that she was born in May, not in March like Max. Besides, I don't think that Nasedo cared so much about birthday's, so I think that the day listed as her birthday, is probably the day that she came out of her pod. Since, she never really had a real Xmas, how could she have ever had a real birthday. What do you think?

Pearl- white: symbol of pure heart and mind, innocence, faith, it balances emotions, especially for water signs. Low intergrity or anger rebounds to user. pink: works better with the heart. *pearls are sometimes used for protection

Roxy

I was watching "Buffy" last night and noticed some things that can be connected to Roswell.

Last night was the episode that showed who Dawn, Buffy little sister really is. Dawn, is a Key, that was created and manifested and was given a human form to protect her from her enemy, Glory, who wants and needs this mystic Key, which is a portal.

Now, these Monks gave Dawn a human form and put her in the house of the Slayer and created all of the memories that Buffy, her mom, and her friends have of her. In this sense, the Key came thru the family. According to the Monks, Dawn doens't know that she is the Key, but they knew that the Slayer would protect her/it.

Know, what if Liz is the Key to the Granolith, in human form, and her enemy has not cam yet? Think about it, Nicky came in the 2nd season when the signal went out. Then those "people" started to make their presence.

Or maybe Liz is the Granolith itself, in human form and it was sent to MAX to PROTECT her, because in a sense, she PROTECTS him. Whoever, maybe Larek, the Queen, or King Zan himself put Liz in human form to protect her and that's why Max has this deep connection with her, because he is supposed to protect her.

Now this is for the Dreamers, maybe on the old planet, King Zan fell in love with TwiloLiz and knew that she was the key, maybe there love was more pure and innocent and if they produced a child, that child would be the ultimate keeper of the Granolith, and it could not be destroyed. Maybe that's why somebody could had altered the book, so that there would still be a chance to get the object.

In falling in love with her, he had to protect her, so maybe he put the key in her human form. Maybe Michael isn't the one who knows about it, maybe Larek was the best friend, or at least close.

As far as twins. Maybe Ava and Tess are twins and Ava helped with this process???

I just have a few things to add about the Navajo's Changing Woman:

As TVPooh stated, Changing Woman represents the earth. The four seasons represent stages of life, so when winter comes Changing Woman is old and feeble. When Changing Woman awakens in the spring, the Navajos see her as being "reborn" as fresh and virginial as a young bride. My mouth literally fell open when I read that!

The Navajos' Changing Woman can be likened to the Hindus' Nagis ("serpent woman")--I have found in mythology that serpents can be represented as snakes or DRAGONS--and many other goddesses who represent renewed earth or life.

More exactly, Changing Woman is VENUS, reborn afresh from the sea foam and froth that was a result of the dispute between the Titans and Olympians for the elixir of life. Could the elixir of life be the Granolith? Can someone help interpret this? I haven't had much time to sort this out, and I'm not really good at it anyway.

The NYT's article on the Eagle Nebula was fascinating. I've always loved astronomy, but now it has a completely different dimension as it relates to Roswell.
Another NYT picture of the Eagle Nebula

Avaspeaks said: quote:what if Liz is the Key to the Granolith

Yes, I thought of this also while watching Buffy. Liz being either the key or the actual Granilith in human form has been discussed here many times. Perhaps in the Hybrid Chronicles story arc we will get some new info to flesh this out.

Could Grandma Claudia be likened to Changing Woman? Was Liz's healing the "rebirth" that signaled to GC that her time was over? I know it has been theorized that GC was carrying the essence of the bride, but because she had a son it was passed to Liz instead. Did the healing awaken the essence in Liz, and thus the virginial young bride was reborn? Any thoughts???

First of all - we can MAKE a work of literature (assuming Roswell is a work of literature since it is theatre) mean "anything". The way we do this is by finding a symbol (like QFanny's fun "Rocky Racoon" interpretation :-) - BTW - there is a thread for these types of theories (Representations&Interpretations) - and then going back and "proving" with certian bits if text how they fit into that bits and pieces of text. (BTW - people do this all the time to "prove" that the Bible says or doesnt say something - it is called "text proofing".
The role of true literary interpretation is to take the symbols and themes that exist in a work of literature and find out what they mean in the context of the overall cannon of the work.
**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

StarBox: you are so right. I was getting so wrapped up in the Greco-Roman myths that I totally forgot what it means to do an literary interpretation.

My English teachers and professors would skin me alive right now if they knew what I had been doing.

I'm an English major, as well. But sometimes, I get so wrapped up in the myths that I forget that not everything needs to apply in order to the character to be linked to the myth. Oops!

Thanks for calling me on that before I let it get further out of hand. I couldn't really make it work and I couldn't figure out why. Now I know!

Could Grandma Claudia be likened to Changing Woman? Was Liz's healing the "rebirth" that signaled to GC that her time was over? I know it has been theorized that GC was carrying the essence of the bride, but because she had a son it was passed to Liz instead. Did the healing awaken the essence in Liz, and thus the virginial young bride was reborn? Any thoughts???

I love that idea, Moon Maiden. It makes a lot of sense. What if the "spirit" that gave GC her extra zeal for life(not all because then she wouldn't be as interesting as a character but what really kept her going) was the essense inside of her that had to 'wait for the season's change' which was Liz's being reborn or altered.

And so without that essence in GC, since it was slowly going to Liz, she got sick. Because the essence kept her from getting ill?

It's kind of strange and full of holes, I just thought it up right now, so feel free to tear it apart or add to it.

I'm an English major, as well. But sometimes, I get so wrapped up in the myths that I forget that not everything needs to apply in order to the character to be linked to the myth. Oops!

[/B]

LOL! Well - for an English teacher - did you see how HORRIBLE the editing was in my post! Yikes!!!! I type way too fast.
:-) :-) :-) :-)
Also Moon and Ckitten - I agree with the GC theories - notice how when Max tries to "connect" with her he "flashes" on her image as a photo negative. I have wondered if he flashed on the image because Liz was now the "print".
I suppose Liz could always read GC's book on the indians (and wasnt it Navajo??) - after all - GC left it right in her ROOM.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Could Nasedo have met GC? Have we been given any dates regarding when she was doing her research for the book? I haven't seen LN, 285S, or RD, so I'm kind of in the dark here. I'm thinking that perhaps Nasedo enlisted GC's help with the leaking pod, maybe somehow put the essence in her for safe-keeping. Then, in case that didn't work he created Tess for a replacement(though that would not explain Ava). After Tess emerged, Nasedo began giving her the "memories" the real bride was supposed to have. This is really out there, so feel free to shoot it down!

Oh, and another thing about Navajos is that they trace descent through the mother. The family name comes from the mother, not the father. Also, the whole family centers around the grandmother as an authority figure.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Reggie - next to the vase of flowers on the bedstand is a small gilded cage. You see it quite clearly in the other screencaps of this scene. The nightstand also has a telephone (not visible in this cap - Kyle is in the way :-) and a lamp on it. I am sure the cage was put there for a reason - since it is the only 'decorative" item on the nightstand aside from the vase of white roses - I was just wondering outloud if the meaning was more subtle than the obvious "trapped" alluison.
And Liz has a woven basket above her head - not a tin (unless it is a tin made to look like a woven basket :-) But I dont think the basket has special significance - other than it being the type of Indain-motif you would find in New Mexico. Liz's parents actually have their home decorated with a heavy Southwestern/Native American theme.

I think I have spent WAY too much time looking at Liz's bedroom decoration! LOL! I even know - off the top of my head - what color Imac she has (its a laptop version BTW - so it will be easy for her to "take on the run" later on - LOL! Cant think of any other reason a 17 year old needs a laptop)
Here is an interesting item in Liz's room - she has a set of those little nesting dolls - you know the ones that have a big doll with lots of little ones inside - and then the smallest, most hidden doll usually holds something "special".

I am telling you - if I could do anything at all in the film industry I would want to dress sets. I just adore this stuff.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Oh. I guess it is. It looked like a woven basket to me, but I think you're right; it does look more like a tin. Wadda ya think's in it? A stash of little bitty bottles of Tabasco sauce?!

I finally got around to watching the promo for The Hybrid Chronicles a little while ago. I watched the whole thing frame by frame and, MAN, there's a ton of stuff going on! Metaphysical Girl, I had a good look at the frame of the Crashdown you posted earlier - it is definitely a seated Buddha with an alien head, sunglasses and all. Great catch!

You know, my thought exactly. For Christmas I got an alien cover for my cell phone, an ornament depicting the '47 crash, and a TiVo recorder so I could freeze-frame Roswell. Did I receive any pod-ish bed linens? NO! A MUST HAVE! (That and a silver handprint tattoo kit...)

You know, my thought exactly. For Christmas I got an alien cover for my cell phone, an ornament depicting the '47 crash, and a TiVo recorder so I could freeze-frame Roswell. Did I receive any pod-ish bed linens? NO! A MUST HAVE! (That and a silver handprint tattoo kit...)

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LOL! Congrats on achieving "FAN" staus Zara :-)
About the bedspread - I pulled the screencap because when you look at the bedspread in the dark I thought it kind of looked like "The Hybrid Chronicles" promo image. But in the light it doesnt look the same.
BTW - FYI for those of you who dont do spoilers - the "Hybrid Chronicles" is a four episode arc - the promo is from all four episodes - thats why there are so many images.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox--you did watch UFO CONVENTION EPPY what did you make of SHEILA HUBBLES license plate----6 89013? The sheriff took the time to magify the 89 at least---this is all I could come up with 6 for 6 yearolds year 1989 3 podsters and 1 LIZ? or Could it simply be March 89 podsters coming out of the podsters but why on Sheila's license plate hmmmmmm?

adding to these cc-Crashdown Cafe, crystal clear, cherry colas, cash cow, concerned citizen, convention co-ordinator.

bb-buhhdaboy, bikerbabes,Beefy Butthead(that is a real interesting one) and there is one in Wipeout while Sheriff and Kyle are fishing can't remember but definitely two b's

Senior Chows,social circles, semi-cirles, S Cavett(from Summer of 47).

Does anyone suspect that Courtney had met the Dupes? Remember her comment to Michael about what he thought about piercings? I thought that a bizarre statement that did nothing to further the story line. Then when we meet Rath, what does he have?

And just why was Rath so keen to kiss Liz? Perhaps he recognised something in her, her previouse relationship to his King, without realising it. Something that Michael does not.

alderbaran, I see hundreds of V's in your posted image

WR

That's not to say Senor Zara (let's call him Zarro) doesn't think Zara is a weirdo as well! He just understands the old phrase "If mamma ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy!"

Starbox, thanks for the kind words of congratulations. Yes, it's a rite of passage to hit the big 50, even if it's just with regard to the number of posts I've made to the Lizmyth board! I think to commemorate the occasion I think I'll explain the meaning of my forum pseudonym as it relates to the Roswell story... (some of you probably recognized it already)

Zara was the destined bride of Kal-el. Each of their handprints were carved, intertwining, in the hood of the teeny spacecraft that brought Kal-el to Earth to escape the destruction of Krypton. Zara survived on New Krypton after the destruction of their planet. Of course the throne of Krypton falls into ill hands, and when Kal-El has matured and proved himself, Zara and her people come for him to bring him back to rule New Krypton with her; after all, it's their destiny... Kal-el, of course, doesn't love Zara - he loves an Earth girl. (How SAD!) But the good news is that Zara and Kal-el end up making their own destiny, and Zara finds true love for the first time with her protector, Ching, who marries her and helps her rule New Krypton in benevolence. Kal-el gets his Earth girl (Superman and Lois) and they all live happily ever after and make the world a better place because they chose the better route!

Isn't that fun? Can you spell parallel?

The whole idea of the Dupes puts me off anyway. It makes absolutely no sense to send both sets. Especially if you know that one set did not turn out quite the way you planned. The momogram does not mention anything about a second set of pods. Obviously there was but why? To use as decoys, possibly but because of their volatile nature, what did they do, they turned on the other 4 and tried to use them to get what they wanted or what Nickolas and Ki'var wanted.

I get the feeling that Nickolas had been to NY to see the Dupes before. He stated how he hated NY but he supposedly hadn't been there that long.

Could the dupes have been added at the last minute by a person in high command whos orders would not be questioned with the intent to use them on earth to replace the royal 4 after they had exterminated them. There would have been no arguments from any of the NY 4 about the terms of the agreement.

Well, technically, it would be 3/4 human child, as Max's body structure is 100% human. And yes, I think that they would. If they didn't, then why would they even accept Max as the reborn leader?

Woah. For some reason your post inspired a new theory...

OK, deep breath, here goes... OK, the dupes. We all agree they are pretty suspect, right? It doesn't really make sense...the mommogram never said anything about duplicates...etc, etc, etc.

Now, the skins have been on earth a VERY, VERY, long time. They had absolutely no success in finding the Royal 4 according to www.silverhandprint.com. Let's just say there was a prophecy back on Twilo about the resurrection of the Royal 4, and let's assume for a moment that somehow...they knew, because of the human DNA donors, what the podsters would look like when they grow up. (the promo for TSAP would indicate this to be true). Khivar makes the queen give up that information, and he sends it down to Nicholas. Nicholas then creates 'skins' in the likeness of the Royal 4. Courtney makes the comment to Michael, because she knows Rath...he's one of them.

Actually, scratch that whole theory because that wouldn't explain the conversations between Nick and Lonnie about her going home and the Granolith. However, it would explain why the Royal 4 in NY were contacted and not the Royal 4 in Roswell. It would also explain how Zan was able to be killed...To kill a skin you have to hit that little button thingee on their backs. From what we saw, Zan was lying face down on the ground when the truck hit him...I'm sure the truck would have run over the button thingee. Wouldn't Zan, if like the other podsters, with similar powers to Max have been able to heal himself?

OK, now I'm going in circles. Anyone feel free to grab anything I've said here and run with it!

Maybe I'll just hold off on making any new theories until after next weeks episode. Nah...where's the fun in that?

Smiles,
{~}:}

p.s. I feel dizzy

Zara-I too noticed the parallel between the Lois and Clark story and the Roswell story. That's one of my all time FAVE Lois and Clark episodes!

Here's a few things I discovered:

The double helix and diamond patterns are both common symbols of Native Americans in New Mexico!

Here are some things from the goddess book mentioned in my last post.

The crescent-horned cow goddess is a symbol of the moon in most Indo-European mythologies and is typically said to be married to a bull who is both her son and her lover

"Traditional Cosmologies treat the sun and the moon as paired opposites. They are often brother and sister ot husband and wide, but the tension between them is so acute that they can not share the skies"

"Identification of the Goddess's head with the moon is further demonstrated in a Cambodian moon myth. A young girl, Biman Chan, married Brah Chan, lord of the skies. His other wives, jealous of their newest rival, persuaded her to ask their husband to take her higher into the heavens. There, violent winds tore off Biman Chan's head, which fell into the pond of Buddhist abbey. The resident Buddha restored it to her body so that she became the goddess of the moon, who undertook a nightly journey, circling the three worlds during the sun's rest period. Biman Chan is unlike other moon goddesses in that she is free of sun-moon hostility"

That's all I found on Bulls and moons in my book. I thought the Buddhist connection was interesting. Tess and Kyle perhaps?

Metaphysicalgrl - Actually the emissary did try to contact the Royals. Remember Brody showed Max the map with the bleeps on it. One bleep was going off in New York, the other was near Roswell (I'm thinking possibly near the pod chambers).

Starbox - Yes I see the differences between the podsters chamber and the dupes. Ummm maybe they didn't need any nutrition because they hatched early heck I don't know, I'm still checking out somethings the dupes said though. Still unsure about exactly what I believe their story is.

Something else, last night I watched MTD again and I noticed a lamp in Liz's room. It was right next to her when Max gave her the Christmas gift back (too bad we don't have good screencaps for MTD), anyways the lamp has a red shade with yellow, what appears to be, Centaurs(half horse, half man) on it. Now I know that Centaurs characters were wild lawless,savage spirits and very inhospitable, but there was one that was different from the rest Chiron Sagittaruis). He was a great healer,astrologer, and oracle. He ruled crystals and healing and was suppose to be the teacher of heroes to help them discovery their destiny. He was also virtuous and extremely wise.

Now a lot of those attributes sound a lot like our Liz and our Max. Thought I would throw this out there to add to the mythology.

I have previously posted a Tess as substitute theory, but didn't really have an explanation for Ava. But, we have all noticed that although they look alike, their essence is different. So although Nasedo may have used the same human genetic material, he could have substituted the leaked essence. Ava may well have the essence of the bride, but because Zan never really loved her in their past life, he was still waiting to meet his true love in this life.

Uh Oh. Do I detect a huge conversation about religion coming up? What about those of us who don't believe the Universe was created by one God? Who says we're seperated from the animals? (I'll give you the vegetables). How can it be the same everywhere if it isn't true here?

(ducks as heavy things are flung at me)

{~}:}

While I'm here...I figured I would comment on Liz's comforter. Have you guys ever seen 'Batik' tie dying? It's kind of hard to explain, but it looks like thats what Liz's comforter is.

Maybe I'll try to find some examples later.
OK then...

Zara & Starbox- My degree is in design and my specialty is actually textiles...
About Liz's bedspread, the picture is awefully small, but it looks to me like either batik or a type of tie/dye. I personally think the set designer bought it to remind us that Liz's parents were perhaps hippies and some of the other house decoration points to this. The question for me is "Am I confusing the books with the tv show?"... hmm... I can't seem to remember. Is there dialog for the tv show that makes me come to this conclusion? help?
...Anyway, that is probably more than you wanted to know, but I thought I'd put it out there. Batik comes to us from Indonesia and certain forms of tie/dye originate in Japan. (Somehow, I don't think the set designer was thinking about the origin of the fabric, although you never know... ) Anyone who knows more about textile history, feel free to correct me. I'm a little rusty. I do agree with you though, it is reminiscent of the webby covering over the sac of each pod.

GraceKel - You know my addiction to well...
...my newest creation. I'll apologize in advance for the size. I just couldn't force myself to resize it.
The Hybrid Chronicles

How about that for an ad in TVguide? Here's me wishin'.

I'm loving all the theories. I'm still trying to keep up with all the music info though. music notation overload

This is what us bored Nebraskan Czechs do during the long winter months.

screencap courtesy of carhenge.com

and

Sorry, but this place is sort of fascinating in a creepy way. Another Harvest road trip for the aliens???

Originally posted by Metaphysicalgrl:
Uh Oh. Do I detect a huge conversation about religion coming up? What about those of us who don't believe the Universe was created by one God? Who says we're seperated from the animals? (I'll give you the vegetables). How can it be the same everywhere if it isn't true here?

(ducks as heavy things are flung at me)And poor little Millia in her training pants who came up with the theory cringes in the background.

But, it's okay , Starbox & Metaphysicalgrl, the Wise & Wonderful shapeshifter ***cough, cough*** has a reply that will satisfy all. :
Assuming (for the sake of this discussion and for all eternity to those who choose to believe it is so) that there is one God who created all beings on all planets, Millia's theory can be interpreted to mean that the hybrids must each ultimately choose to mate with the alien match or the human match, or to remain single. In some other social system it might be acceptable to have one's alien cake and eat one's human too, so to speak, but I was assuming that the choice (to follow the human or the alien side) would be the focus of the dilemma.

RedHawk!! You have outdone yourself for all eternity this time. It's awesome! Liz's 'essence' shines through.

GraceKel - You know my addiction to well...
...my newest creation. I'll apologize in advance for the size. I just couldn't force myself to resize it.
The Hybrid Chronicles

How about that for an ad in TVguide? Here's me wishin'. :grin

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OMG REDHAWK i TOTALLY FORGOT WHAT I WAS GONNA SAY AFTER WATCHING YOUR CREATIONS! YOU ARE TOO MUCH!
That was EXCELLENT. I think you're selling yourself short with TVGUIDE. You should pass straight to MOMMA...do not pass go and do not collect $200. That was priceless...

Well the last one was undescribably incredible

Man, now I have ot go back up and re-read what I was gonna post *grummble grummble*

Ahhh yes, now I remember! Bluecornmoon HAS to be correct because of one very simple science law. how about we end that discussion once and for all:

SOUL=ENERGY
ENERGY CANNOT BE CREATED OR DESTROYED

In other words no energy cloning. NO soul cloning. You can only get energy from one place and move it somewhere else... but its the same energy. Why this is the way it is, well atleast for me, I'm planning on asking that 1God when I die...

AvaSpeaks - Though we have talked about Liz being the key to the Granolith, using the Dawn analogy was wonderful! It really makes me think about how it could work - how Liz could be (or been created as) the key to the Granolith. I watch Buffy, but never thought about the analogy.

I feel so out of it - by the time I get on-line my brain is fried. But - I love all the discussions going on. My one question - which harkins back to a long discussion from long ago. We know that alien essence was combined with human DNA - so can a soul (the human soul) follow the DNA. If so, than you have two souls combined - the alien soul and the human soul - that have to work together to figure out the hybrid's destiny or life path. If the soul does not follow the DNA, than the DNA provides nothing but the vessel in which the human essence exists. IMO I think it is somewhere in between, not a combination of two complete souls, but piece of the two previous beings, just like a child is a combination of its parents (and often has innate traits inherited from the parents), but is a separate and unique soul and being with its own destiny and life path. Does any of this make sense??

BTW - Moderators - I will be back in the morning to start up the new thread, so PLEASE do not shut it down if it goes over 250 a bit.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

redhawk... that was absolutely awesome. haven't heard the word batik in a long time

zero... i agree w/ you on 2 souls coming together. yes, not whole but part of. it seems definitely more like past lives are involved here. generations down the line, that gene is passed from one to the next and so forth and each time that trait is put to the test, it can either respond in the same matter or modified, depending on the situation.

ok. i'm really out of it.

Maybe only humans have souls, and the podsters didn't get them until they were recreated as humans.

That really messes with some of the Liz theories, but why would only Nasedo not have a soul?

Zero - Heres to a fried brain!!! My brain has nothing more challenging than housekeeping to occupy it - so the boards give me something to think about. I will try to keep an eye on the board today and when it gets to 250 I will post a message to the moderators - that seemed to keep th last board up until the new one opened :-)

TVPooh - thanks for the extra moon stuff - I agree that it fits Tess & I am glad I wasnt imagining that the moon/sun relationship is one of implied hostility.

Redhawk - I LOVE the new collage. SOOOOOOO lovely.

Shapeshifter - I had not joined in on the "soul" question yet - but heck - I will :-)
I agree with BlueCornMoon that you would have ONE soulmate. The soul is eternal. Max and the hybrids may have alien natures - but not dual souls. (Although dual souls may explain Tess's multiple personailty disorder :-)
I think this goes back to the question of the hybridization (which they are actually goig to be addressing - WOOO-HOOO). Back to my pregnancy/birth stuff. The human DNA and alien essence would have HAD to have been combined on a cellular level at the moment of conception. I dont know how much detail the show will go into - but I would assume that the process was similar to cloning. In theory the genetic material from either the egg or sperm would be removed and replaced with alien DNA (did anyone see Species???) - then the sperm and egg would be united. The point being that from the earliest moments - the podsters were hybrids - and their hybrid nature is contained in every cell. It shouldnt be a case that they could somehow "lose part of the alien nature" or "lose part of the human nature". They are a SINGLE being with a single soul. I would say - perhaps - they have an alien destiny and a soulmate - but I dont think that their soulmate will necessarily be human. It wouldnt have to be - as souls should not be confined by laws of space and time. I think Max and Liz are soulmates. I dont know that anyone else on the show necessarily are a match of "soulmate" level (in fact - Maria and Isable have both said that what Max/Liz have is different "that whole soulmate thing going on")

Liz's bedspread - Thanks for the info on batik :-) I actually love her bedspread.
I would disagree with the thought that she has the bedspread because her parents were hippies - only because Liz is so NOT a Hippie. And teenage girls tend to decorate their own rooms. Maybe it was a gift from GC from one of her travels?? I do think the pattern is very "organic" looking and goes along well with the theme of metamorphasis.
I am telling you - I feel WAY too close to Liz's room decor! LOL!! But I think it is all significant - her room is a constant set - it is in almost every episode.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

BTW - Moderators - I will be back in the morning to start up the new thread, so PLEASE do not shut it down if it goes over 250 a bit.

Zero
I Shall Believe! Zero, may we all be blessed to be so clear when our brains are fried!

Need to go to work, but I think someone said something about the aliens maybe not having a soul. And I have always thought the "essence" could be the alien version of "soul." Well, we shall see Monday!

Zero
I Shall Believe!