Background

We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, season after season (a little optimism there ), finding “clues” to Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology and other relevant topics – and there are a lot of them! – and then developing theories and potential storylines based on these (often well hidden) clues! Shapeshifter and Qfanny have graciously agreed to set up a single link to the former threads that are available to read (if you have a week or two). You can find it at the following link http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology (but be patient, they will have thread #26 up in good time ) .

The following is a LONG summary (oxymoron?) of some of the clues, thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I have been trying to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled; however, not all clues identified are listed or theories are covered in-depth (remember, I – Zero – am a mere human being with limited human brain capacity, so can only retain so many details).

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings – especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance! We are a friendly – though seriously anal retentive – group! So – dive in, and join the fun!!

Liz is Important – The Liz/Max Connection

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions – or is it time zones? - recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz and felt a special connection to her. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all apparently due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that “connection” irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t let go of the connection. After events in NY, Max seems willing to give their Friendship another try, and in “A Roswell Christmas Carol,” his turning to Liz for help in his time of need, only confirms that even more. As Max says in the end – once Liz has helped him overcome his trial of conscience – he “believes in her!” There is MORE to the Liz/Max connection than just a romantic relationship, as we have always assumed. She is his trusted advisory, his sound of reason, she is the yin to his yang, and she helps him helps him connect to his human side, finding that there is strength in his humanity. BUT - Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions re: that connection have been answered this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Consequence of the Connection – the Change?

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz. We now know from the events in MITC that LIZ WAS CHANGED, and is developing powers, but how come?! How has that change come about? Whether the change in Liz was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Apparently Future Max knew Liz had the potential to “change” since he made the comment that she wasn’t letting it happen, but did he know the true potential of that change and what initiated it or prevented it from occurring? Is Liz’s “change” only a result of Max “bringing her back,” what Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply – or is there something more involved! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squad’s planet (we call Twilo)? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? Could she be the “true bride” – only sent on a different ship to prevent easy discovery, with Tess serving as an unknowing dupe. But if so, and she is part alien, why did she disappear in Wipeout? She did cause the Skin’s shed skin to disintegrate, but that could have other reasons for occurring. Maybe she is purely human, but contains the “true bride’s” essence – but in a different configuration than the Hybrid pod squad?)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” and romanced a predecessor to Liz – but was called back to Twilo, leaving his true love behind.
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz? Could Tess/Ava be a ruse – as mentioned above - to protect the true queen, Liz, from being discovered before she has time to develop her powers that would protect her and her loved ones?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.) However, Liz is Max’s most trusted advisor, and the one most likely to keep him staying the course!
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies, such as the key to operating the Granolith – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her?
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Twilo? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Granolith and the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story? Ava had heard this story foretold during her previous life on Twilo?
· Could it just be Liz's extremely advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the MANY theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special all his human life – and he never connected with Ava the way one would have expected if she was his mate even though they had (we assume) spent their entire life on Earth – in the NYC sewers - together. I guess we will never know unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones (all 5 of them w/ Liz present) – anything is possible? We don’t know what happened to his body!) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her. (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?” [paraphrasing]) Liz looks directly at Max as he gets off the bus, with a sort of recognition. They obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were friends and lab partners more recently. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that we know are all human (according to Harding in WR). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking already – yet dormant – powers existing within her? Ava’s reaction to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle, and all the kids in the hospital? There seems to be more to initiating the “change” than just the healing! Though Kyle may develop his own powers someday, and so could the kids?

Origin of the Connection – Where is Liz from, really?

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins! A few of the common questions raised include:
· Are her parents her “true” birth parents or is Liz adopted like the Evans kids?
· Did Grandma Claudia have a relationship with an alien that passed something on to Liz?
· Does Liz have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race?
· Why does Liz look so much like Sheila Hubble?
· How does all this play into the connection with Max and Liz’s new found “abilities/powers”? (The first known appearing to be astral projection.)
· Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur?

We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) There seems to be many clues that point to this possibility – but nothing definite. We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the Twilo conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. These races could be of common decent, or there could be many variations. We know from White Room that the alien that was studied had a cerebral cortex similar to ours (humans), that did not have a bone structure like ours – thus, the shock that Max did. Could the similarities that the alien had be due to a common ancestor to humans – one that traveled to Earth many years ago either colonizing Earth or intermingling with the humans here. We don’t know for sure that the alien that was studied was a shapeshifter – we just assume it was, but it could have been another alien, different from the shapeshifters, that was on board the ship (or another ship that crashed.) We also know that the Skins (who are NOT Skins on Twilo – only on Earth – so how did Nasedo know what they called themselves?) share powers common to the pod squad whose powers are all human. Does this mean that the beings that are Skins are from the same race of beings that the essences of the podsters are from? Will humans be able to eventually acquire some of these powers?

Rath sarcastically comments about how hard it is to travel through space to Earth – thus the need to possess humans long-distance – but the podsters obviously got here somehow (and fairly quickly if the comments concerning the warring for 50 years is correct - I will explain this if you don’t get what I mean – just ask) – so travel to and from Earth must be possible and not unreasonable. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ Twilo predecessors from long ago? Could Liz and Max have a common ancestor – from long, long ago?

Granolith – How does it fit in?

We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Whitaker and Courtney seemed to think it was a means to their salvation – but why? It is obviously of great importance! Could the Granolith be like a Holy Grail of the V constellation? The Holy Grail was meant to be found by a man with a pure heart who will use it to feed the hungry and heal the sick, and with it will bring peace and happiness to the land. So – whose heart is the purest in Roswell? Could it be Liz? The Granolith could be like Excalibur from the King Arthur tales, to be used as an instrument of the righteous, by a good man for a good cause. So – who fits that description? Max? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? If it is only a transport system, I doubt they would have had such a concerned reaction – so there must be more to the Granolith than that. Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the prophesized protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Liz has yet to see the Granolith. Maybe it will react when she enters it. Maybe Liz holds something within her that is the key to the operation of the Granolith! Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time? Apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way before their discovery? So, many questions – still! … ! The speculation continues!

Destiny – Liz and Max!

Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his original “destiny” on Twilo when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a “human” alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Many posters have wondered “Why?” send the Hybrid pod squad (in duplicate form) to Earth if there wasn’t some benefit. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction. Maybe she had “heard” the prophecy? (I am ignoring the cut scenes that Rooney posted that explained that the Dupe’s shapeshifter had warned that anyone they brought back would be changed, not necessarily for the better, because if it is not aired, it might not be the way the writers/producers have decided to take the show.) Zan’s “searching for someone” that Ava spoke briefly about, also seems to imply that he felt someone special was out there that he was meant to connect with – maybe Liz or Serena – I guess we will never know unless he is “brought back” somehow.

Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the pod squad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are (supposedly) “human” according to Harding. (I’m not going to get into it in this Intro – but the fact that the Skin’s powers are similar to the pod squads’ powers – which are advanced human powers – which are supposed to be similar to the powers they had on Twilo seems to imply that humans must be capable of the these powers someday and have a common ancestor with the Skins and pod squanders in the distant past – Ummm …! ) Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters and her memory retrieval does not seem very complete! (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time!) Though the Dupes do seem to have memories of their past lives – at least Lonnie appears to - we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. Also, are the visions Max’s previous alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone (i.e., Tess, another shapeshifter) or somewhere (i.e., Granolith, Twilo) else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! What else is stored deep within him, and can he get to the point he will be able to freely access and prevent having it MRd out of him?

There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history “destined” to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the small amount of what we know of past podster actions. Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself I MITC - Zan was killed through treachery on Twilo, then New Zan was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max (a Zan Hybrid) survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized, and Max has commented many times: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no?? Maybe they make their own destiny with a little help from their Human Friends.

Follow Your Heart

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons. Grandma Claudia told Liz to promise to always follow her heart wherever it leads her (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again (MITC and ARCC). He has even stated that he believes in Liz, and though this is meant more in a friendly way than a romantic way, it is a sign that Max is following his heart back to her!

Symbolism – Do Not Ignore Anything!

The symbolism throughout the both seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often and everywhere (e.g., Valenti’s front door, Michael’s wallpaper). Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! Liz could be the Trojan Horse in which something of great importance is hidden. There is a prominent picture of a Ship between Max and Maria when they are discussing his love for Liz. The old Scandinavian tale of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his score "The Flying Dutchman," symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love. In desperation the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful. Senta, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears that she will be faithful to the Dutchman unto death. However, in doing so, she betrays her fiancé Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she was trying to save. The Dutchman puts out to sea, but his vessel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned. HOWEVER - the pair are now seen RISING from the now-CALMED waters, TRANSFIGURED and REDEEMED by their SACRIFICE. Salvation is no impossibly idealistic dream, but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. Yvonne “White” was the nurse that disappears in Summer of ’47.

Max lights a “white” pinecone in ARCC. The ancient Greeks and Assyrians viewed the pinecone as a symbol of masculinity because of its phallic shape, and it represented both fertility and immortality. As the emblem of Artemis, it represented feminine purity. It was also the emblem of the Roman goddess Venus. In Christianity, the pinecone forms the crown of the Tree of Life. Because of its swirling form, it is associated with dynamic generative and cosmic power. Here we see Venus is mentioned and also the Tree of Life (remember the women on the reservation told Liz that was what the symbol was on the necklace) also feminine purity seems to play an important role for Liz at this point. (Thanks Evid!) (And this is just the tip of the iceberg!!)

Then there is the Dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. We were in the "year of the dragon." Here are some Dragon “meanings”:
· In the Chinese Horoscope, the Dragon is in the FIFTH ranking order.
· The Dragon's corresponding western sign is ARIES.
· The Dragon’s ruling planet is VENUS.
Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her (unless dragons have been popping up on other characters’ windows?). But since it was the year she discovers that she had “powers,” it is reasonable to think of her as being “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon … as the Dragon. (Thank You Meloudious 1, Starbox and Bluecornmoon, Charmed Kitten for your thoughts on the Dragon!)
Then there is the Arthur C. Clarke book, “Childhood’s End” that is found in _____ (can’t remember the episode – Help?). Following is a summary written by a reader on Amazon – a coincidence? “It is ...in this book the "Overlords" are a mysterious, powerful, but ultimately tragic group of beings that have vastly potent minds, but that cannot undergo the spiritual metamorphosis that would take them into direct communion with the sort of Godhead that directs their (and human) destiny. I liked Clarke's ideas about utopia, which is more or less what the Earth becomes after a few generations under the guidance of the Overlords. He seems to have had a lot of fun playing with ideas about future art forms, for example, among other things. However, this utopian society is doomed, because of an unforeseen, quantum leap in evolution, that turns out to be an evolution of the communal spirit. Clarke has a lot to say here about what connects us to each other, as human beings. Are we all linked with some higher being at the level of spirit, in the manner that islands would be revealed to be all linked, if one were to somehow drain the world's oceans? Or is striving toward a planned, ordered, social utopia, with allowances made for developing all of every individual's gifts to the fullest possible degree, the best way to relate to each other?...” Interesting??

There are lots of other symbols and clues to pick up on! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent and clever for that!

The “Bride” – will the real one please stand up!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? OR could it be referring to Liz who was also standing right there? AND Why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day, and never acknowledged Tess as Max’s mate!) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride with Max in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. (Zan and Ava, who had spent their entire lives together, didn’t seem to be working at producing offspring.) What if Tess was sent to deceive the enemy, and the Real Bride was sent in a separate ship – and somehow the Real Bride’s essence ultimately ended up in Liz.

Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts were needed to defeat the enemy. Maybe Tess is a warrior, led to believe she was the bride, when she really wasn’t. (Bad Boy Harding!!) And why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? Since their shapeshifter seemed to teach them so much, wouldn’t they have known the importance of keeping the unit together? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection previously or at the same time? They never mention seeing a Mom’ogram.) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was the Mom’ogram pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is Twilo still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?) housing the heads of the allied forces?

The Books – Doesn’t anyone read these things?

Concerns similar those raised about the Mom’ogram have been raised about the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? Did the Dupes receive a similar book? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the pod squad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Why does Max have writing on his forehead, but no one else does?

Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there is any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!) READ THE BOOKS! READ THE FILES! ASK MORE QUESTIONS!

The Catalyst – Liz!

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are re-watched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, connecting with Max to save his life in NY and coming up with the idea that helps Max restore his balance in ARCC.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan. (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max “fall out of love with her.”)

Vision Quest – How does Liz fit in?

Liz could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we now know is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment. (Who knows who and what to believe on this one??) Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” or complement Max, and bring him into “balance”? Max seems to believe that Liz is his voice of reason, and knows him better than anyone else – even Iz! (We learn this from the JK and JB commentary on ARCC.) Could Liz possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence (combined with her connection with Max) mean that she has the potential to obtain more of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection, at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing, and how the visions play into the powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “projected” visions from Tess to get Iz’s attention for help). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps!) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions from Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just “now” being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifters, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? The vision seems similar to that Liz gets in SH when she “sees” the orb being buried. Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Could his blurred vision be the result of testing he was subjected to, and the tic tacs pills that he takes to maintain his “balance”?

[/b]Time Travel – “Run, Lola, Run”[/b]

Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has it come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run” – which was mentioned in Surprise as the story of Liz’s life? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully due to the premature cementing, and the third being the path we are on now!) Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos? OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has from FM concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY, and that warning prevented him from turning it over to the other aliens - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max in particular!) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug Max – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed! Does he really “know” as Kyle seems to think Max always does?

Hero Journey – Liz’s Path

I want to add something about Liz’s hero journey here, but I’m still working on it. So it will have to wait – but trust me – Liz’s appears to be taking that journey!

Grandma Claudia – the first connection?

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her new and married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Perhaps GC helped them when she was younger, and they entrusted valuable information with her just as with River Dog. Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Norma Bates & Tasyfa contributed these thoughts! Soulmates are usually described as people being very alike in feelings and motivation. They work very well together for common goals. They have a connection of purpose and a similarity in thinking. Their skills complement each others so that together they accomplish more and are stronger/better than if they worked individually toward the same goal. But soulmates aren’t necessarily a permanent connection and they could be with several people. However, Lifebonds take "soulmate" one step further. Lifebonds are usually found in telepathic sci-fi (Kathy Tyers' "Firebird" for example) and fantasy genres. Before they can be lifebonded, they must be soulmates first. They are linked together mentally, emotionally and constantly. Lifebonds in fiction are rare and not taken lightly. They are a permanent one on one connection…till death do they part. The creation of a lifebond is a matter of choice. It doesn’t just happen. Authors sometimes use the theory that if a pair decides to lifebond, they spend some time apart first, to strengthen and stretch the bond (to change the bond) and to contemplate on their choice. Both must agree and be fully committed to each other. There is no divorce option except death. Once that is done, the 2 open their connections to each other, mind and soul, to the fullest extent and then “cement” their relationship, making the bond permanent.

The drawbacks to life bonding includes:
· If they are separated from each other, they feel incomplete, not whole.
· Long term separation can lead to mental instability or insanity because one balances the other’s strengths and weaknesses emotionally and physically.
· If one of a bonded pair dies, it can cause a deep depression to the point of suicide. The remaining survivor has trouble adapting and balancing themselves.

Some things that lifebonds aren’t:
· They are not mind reading skills. They send strong impressions or emotions. Right now, if Max and Liz were lifebonded, he would know she was lying but not why unless she told him.
· They are still separate people capable of misunderstandings.
· Lifebonds cause a lot of stress and misunderstanding because they are so close emotionally, they forget to communicate verbally.
· Having secrets between a lifebonded pair causes a lot of frustration and pain between them.

Could what FM is talking about in TEOTW be a hint that, not knowing what they were doing, Liz and Max became life bonded too soon? Liz wasn’t going to change or be able to lifebond to Max without first making a decision that she wanted to go ahead with the relationship. From Destiny until TEOTW she kept herself apart and tried to withdraw, but after seeing Madame Vivian she changed her mind and decided to take a chance…to start changing. Perhaps FM found out that Liz would develop her own powers if they hadn't become lifebonded and solidified the links so early. FM coming back and keeping her separated allowed the connections to grow stronger. Liz needed time to stretch the links, to change both physically and mentally, and taking Isabel's hand in MITC was only the first step of finding out whom she really is and what she can do.

Sheila Hubble – Eerie resemblance to Liz! – What’s the connection?

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the pod squad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with while in Florida?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. So, there is a connection to Liz. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Do you think the writers will introduce a character from Florida named Chad? Ummmmm?

Venus – Liz’s connection to the stars!

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Numbers – It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! TEOTW occurs in 2014! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates? Next time you watch ARCC, notice the house addresses for Brody and the Ghost’s family, and it’s the 23rd Annual celebration. They all add up to 5!

Cave Map Symbols – All signs lead to Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Skins – What lies below the surface?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the pod squad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seemed to be confined to their husks, but they could be from the same race as the pod squad’s alien predecessors. Many of us think that the pod squad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without being noticed? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? How did the Skins – Nicko - find the Dupes? And could some of these earlier alien visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race or groups of aliens on Earth ? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Shapeshifters – Are there more than one?

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same. Maybe Tic Tac was the Dupes’ shapeshifter who came back to Roswell.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Recently with the discovery of Liz’s change, many have wondered why Harding didn’t know about the change and mention it. Especially after reading the cut scenes from MITC. If Ava knew, Harding should have known and mentioned it. Of course, there are the long lingering questions like: Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions, and his apparent failure to divulge information about Liz and the podsters’ origins. Was his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee”? And what did he do for all those years before Tess hatched? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Again, why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? Why did Harding have such a large collection of antiques, which he was so sensitive about? Had he been around when they were original manufactured – years ago? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Odds and Ends

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection. And who could miss Max grabbing Liz’s hand at mid-night mass and telling Liz, “I believe in you!” in ARCC!

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Dates

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across – PM me if you have one. I have added dates from the Crashdown Timeline and the Whitaker Diaries, but they are questionable, and have no basis in episodes aired, so take them with a grain of salt.

1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1935 – Picture of Michael’s DNA donor? (Hybrid Chronicle’s promo)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
7/7/1947 – Privates Timothy Mann and Frank DiMuzio find Privates Bill Fifer and Jim McCarthy dead near crash site.
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
1983 – Michael’s birthday?
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
3 or 5/7/1983 – Tess’s birthday (I see a 5, others see 3?)(Tess, Lies and Videotapes)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1990 – Maria’s Dad leaves (Sexual Healing)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
11/11/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex wind up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max & Liz share their first kiss (Heatwave)
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/5/2000 – Rare alignment of Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Earth’s Moon and the Sun (4everyoung)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed Harding, the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday (Surprise)
12/23/2000 – Max heals kids in Hospital (ARCC)
12/24/2000 – Max attends Midnight Services, expressing his Belief in Liz (ARCC)
2014 – Minutes before the destruction of Earth, Future Liz Convinces Future Max to go back in time and convince Liz to deceive Max into “falling out of love with her” – thus, changing the future (TEOTW)

In Summary

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome.

OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

You've brought up so many important and vital elements that I'll definitely be paying a lot more attention to Liz and her possible connection to the Pod Squad

Liz and Max as twin souls - notice how they come together to form the
"swirl" on the orb activated during Sexual Healing. Also - notice the
"Emergency" sign behind them - when they come to gether it reads "MERGE".
The animation is from the alternate ending to Leaving Normal and is
complimets of RedHawk (THANKS!!) Also posted is a screencap of the aired
ending of Leaving Normal - here you can see a variation of the orb swirl as
well.

Liz as the keeper of/key to the granolith:
Picture of the granolith chamber in the crashdown:

Liz with the word "CHANGE" behind her - from Leaving Normal. I think the
theme of Liz's "emergence" is central to Roswell - Think of Future Max's
line that Liz needed to let herself change.

Sheila Hubble:

Liz as the Virgin Mary/key to Salvation (::waving to Evid:

The dragon on Liz's window:

Liz as the Trojan Horse (she was avoiding Maria in the Pilot and ate lunch
with Pam TROY). Horses have shown up alot in pictures, etc but here is the
horse that ran in front of Max's jeep in Blood Brothers:

Liz as the Tree of Life and EAGLE imagery - see the tree mural on the wall -
and also the EAGLE figure on the table.

The "destiny" book with the name "LIZ" backwards next to what looks like the
granolith sideways:

Liz and the cave "map" - note the granolith-like symbols near her neck and
towards the top.

Liz and the Childhoods End book:

Images thanks to crashdown, shapeshifter, redhawk and a HUGE thanks to
www.theddd.com who are kind enough to
supply custom screencaps for our gallery.
THANKS!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Dayneen - about the lamp - I always thought it was a regular horse on the shade. It looks like an old milk glass lamp from the 50's - I will try to get a clear view of it - either way - horse or centaur - works with Liz mythology.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

On the cave map, there is the four-square symbol that looks like the pods' position in the chamber. Above it, the line of pods looks like the dupes' pod position, except for that upside-down trianle at the end. What is that supposed to represent? I know the triangle has reprsented the granolith, but why would it be attached to the dupe-looking pods? I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before. I just noticed it while looking through the intro.

BTW, Redhawk your collage was AWESOME, as usual. I love your site! I pick out a pic at the end of work everyday and leave it running so the first thing I see in the morning is Max & Liz (although, the pic of Max doing pull-ups has found its way to my screen more that once ).

Starbox: I can't believe how your mind works, the clues you have discovered have been amazing. Keep them coming.

On to the Hybrid Chronicles, I sure hope Liz will play a big part in these Chronicles, how could she not after all the clues they have given us. I for one am getting tired of this game and want some answers. You out there TPTB, give us a lot more Liz, PLEASE!!!!

Evid

Evid

Thanks

CharmedKitten--the horse in is between Dr Shaunessey(another S person LOL) and the wedding picture(HMMMMMM)you can't see a clear picture of the horse that is a foggy pic I am afraid but thats where it is I hope that helps.

quote:Originally posted by Zero:
Zan and Ava, who had spent their entire lives together, didn’t seem to be working at producing offspring.

Really Zero? Because I actually did get the impression that Z/A were possibly diddling, whether they were actually diddling with the intent to make offspring I doubt... but I'm sure if Ava did get preggers, Zan (for some reason) I'd think probably wouldn't have cared. It's just that I didn't think Zan's "heart was in it" per se I feel that Zan/Ava could have been going at it probably not unlike Lonnie/Rath. Except Lonnie/Rath seemed to get "mutual" enjoyment from it... Zan could have merely been *going through the motions*. Hence Ava, who seemed to love him, caught that aloof vibe - which is why she tells Liz, "I always thought he was waiting for someone else" (or something).

I also think this because, if Lonnie/Rath were doing it.... and it wouldn't surprise me Rath/Zan were constantly embroiled in "pissing contests". Zan could have "claimed his territory" by taking Ava as Rath "claimed his territory" with Lonnie (the Dupes believing this is what they were "created" to do)... but Zan doesn't love Ava. Although I seriously doubt Lonnie/Rath loved each other either (ex/ Lonnie's complete willingness to leave everyone - including Rath - up for execution while she's making "propositions" to Nikolas to go and live the high life with Khivar).

Something similar kind of/sort of happened between Max and Tess (although - thank God - never led to the bedroom. Sorry, raging Dreamer reared it's head there ). Max kissed Tess, but (possibly like Zan) his "heart wasn't in it" (he was more disturbed by it then anything). His heart belonged/s to Liz. Who Zan was waiting for , but she never came.

Am I the only one that thinks this? Has this been pondered before? I have been gone for awhile.

Melodious

Melodious - I never got the impression that Ava and Zan were doing the deed. Mostly because we were told that Zan was so much like Max in terms of integrity/vision - and
Max would never ever "use" someone he didnt love for sex. Isabel never had a problem dating (I am not implying she had sex) and keeping things on a surface level - but I get the impression that Max never dated "recreationally" I would assume Zan had the same high standards. Also - if Ava had been sleeping with Zan I think she would have had a little more sense of self - after all she would have been the leaders "woman". I think Lonnie would have said something like "NOW that Zan is dead - who are you????"

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Ok, about Ava. I mentioned a while back that Ava was another name for Eve. Evil relates to the Sanskrit word ava (over,away) meaning "one which is opposite", or said another way, an antagonist or foe.

Keeping this in mind, here are some other things I found:

We know Adam was tempted by Eve(Ava) and his sin (the "original sin") was the fall of mankind. Had Adam resisted Eve(Ava), perhaps mankind would not have been doomed. Well, a Hindu ritual sort of reinacts this. In the Tantric ritual, a woman of a lower caste and of dissolute character tries to tempt and seduce a man of the highest caste. It is up to the man to resist her in order to avoid doom and perdition. Was Tess/Ava of an inferior race or position in society? Is this why the supposed marriage doomed everyone?

In most myths, gods assume a female incarnation in order to seduce and damn their opponents.

In Egypt, one of the most dangerous shapes of evil devils was that of the innocent little girl with CURLY BLONDE HAIR!

We all know Tess seems to be hiding something, but maybe Ava isn't as innocent as she seems either. Perhaps these two are hiding a little evil within, but Ava is better at hiding it. Any thoughts on this??

When we do see one, it'll probably be blinking. "You have (1) message waiting." I'm assuming Mom sprang for "orb waiting" for the kids, right?

I suppose we're going to have to agree to disagree StarBox I often questioned the Dupes "integrity" right from the beginning and in those concerns, I don't think Max and Zan were anything alike. Almost like apples and oranges. I mean, look how Lonnie behaved in comparison to Isabel. Completely different.

I do feel Max was probably the "better half", hence Max wouldn't sleep with someone he didn't love, but Zan...? (I really don't want to offend any truckstoppers out there at all) I don't know. Zan might have slept with Ava to secure his place as leader or simply didn't want to look like a "pansy" or something with Rath/Lonnie probably going at it like jackrabbits. That "everyone else is doing it - and I'm the leader - I better 'stake my claim' too" kind of machismo attitude. Granted, I probably shouldn't be making these grand presumptions about a guy we only saw, for tops 30 seconds before he was offed. What I saw of Zan and basing an opinion on the behavior of the other Dupes ... none of them seemed similar to their Roswell counterparts, hence I doubt Zan was all that similar to Max.

Ava probably didn't mind (if this is at all viable) because she believed she loved him, and - at first - believed he loved her (because this is what they were *supposed* to do). After time progressed, she began to realize Zan didn't love her at all. She let him do what he wanted, however, because she did love him (and/or, *what* would she do? *where* would she go? She was supposed to be the leader's bride, there's not a whole lot she could have done about it). Although, my judgement might be a little tainted because I read this really good fanfic that didn't paint Zan in a pleasant light at all. So y'all probably should take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

quote:Also - if Ava had been sleeping with Zan I think she would have had a little more sense of self - after all she would have been the leaders "woman".

Not if she believed Zan was just "using her" for mere physical pleasure per se. To be in love with him and *knowing* he didn't love her (Ava "making love" but Zan just "having sex")... she probably wouldn't have had a very high self-esteem. She also seemed to be the "weak link" and/or "odd one out" in the group... Lonnie made that painfully evident just after they stole the car and began their trip to Roswell. So she seemed to be stepped on by Lonnie *and* Rath, it wouldn't really surprise me if Zan used her to a certain extent too.

quote:I think Lonnie would have said something like "NOW that Zan is dead - who are you????"

**StarBox**

Not necessarily, especially if Lonnie knew her brother didn't particularly care about Ava either. Chances are, Lonnie *would* know that. Although that's just speculation, as is the rest of this. Great feedback StarBox, really made me think.

Melodious

Fraternal twins! Their guardian must have taken the exposed fetus from the opened pod, and put it in with another, to grow as a fraternal twin with that podster. Ava and Isabel were twins, hence "sisters". That might explain why Ava seemed so meek- she never got over being crowded in with an overbearing Lonnie. (Or invaded by... we don't know whose pod was breached.) And, of course, the three pods / four podsters business.

Ummmmmmmmm Reggie - I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. :-) Lonnie never says she and Ava are sisters. In fact - the dupes seem to have the same concept of their sibling relationships as the podsters (i.e Max/Isabel and Lonnie/Zan are siblings - Micheal/Tess and Ava/Rath are not) Here is the complete dialouge from that scene:

AVA: We were family. The four of us.
LONNIE: Things change.
RATH: Yo, move outta the way!
AVA: He was your brother, Lonnie.
LONNIE: That's right. Zan's my brother. Rath's my lover. But who are you? Why are you still livin' and breathin' and ridin' in this car? Oh, that's right. You're here 'cause I love you. Ain't that sweet?

Anyway - Melodious - I dont think we will ever know if Zan and Ava were experiencing the joy of alien sex :-) - I kind of got the impression that Zan was in his own little world - but hey - he had what - two seconds of screentime and even less dialouge. I never saw him touch Ava - guess if the writers were implying they were lovers I would have expected him to have his arm on her shoulder or something - I dunno - some sign of (physical at least) affection. His body language towards her seemed more like he viewed her as a kid sister (in much the same way that Isabel calls Michael her "brother") - but again - he was on air for two seconds so it was not enough to form any sort of grounded opinion.

And I admit to be totally and completly in love with the character of Max - I cant bring myself to believe that anyone who shared even part of his alien "past" would be a rotten, self-serving jerk. So I view Zan through "Max colored glasses :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I've lurked about on this thread for some time, but never got to actually posting.

Anyway, has anyone read Faile's fanfic, "It Was Supposed To Be You"? She has some verrry interesting ideas about the whole Max/Liz connection that I agree with.

Here's the link to it. For anyone that's a Dreamer like myself, it's almost guaranteed to make you cry!! I also would like to know what you guys think about her ideas, because I agree with her whole idea on Liz's importance to the Alien mythology, (not to mention Max's!)
http://www.geocities.com/awacsian/fanfic.html

Okay I'll check back in later to see if anyone's read it and to see what you guys think.

since you brought it up, i always wondered if maybe they disappeared in order of age. valenti being the oldest, and then Liz, Kyle and Maria.

speaking of ages, i've noticed, as i'm sure you all have too, that major life changes occurred to all the characters right around age 6 or 7.
Podsters:emerged
Maria: her dad left, i think?
Kyle: his mom left
Liz: can't think of anything, but she seems to be about that age in the flashes with her looking in the mirror pretending to be a bride
Alex: ?

sorry, i can't remember but i've noted that age several times, they mention things offhand so you know they have to be important. can anyone help??
(i just got off work and my mind is gone)

Any thoughts on the fraternal twins idea, that the occupant of the damaged pod was moved to one of the intact ones? Hence, three pods but four podsters?

From thread #26:
quote:Originally posted by Starbox
I think this goes back to the question of the hybridization (which they are actually goig to be addressing - WOOO-HOOO). Back to my pregnancy/birth stuff. The human DNA and alien essence would have HAD to have been combined on a cellular level at the moment of conception. I dont know how much detail the show will go into - but I would assume that the process was similar to cloning. In theory the genetic material from either the egg or sperm would be removed and replaced with alien DNA (did anyone see Species???) - then the sperm and egg would be united. The point being that from the earliest moments - the podsters were hybrids - and their hybrid nature is contained in every cell. It shouldnt be a case that they could somehow "lose part of the alien nature" or "lose part of the human nature".
Starbox, if you are right, then we would know for certain that the Twilonese had visited Earth before. The pods were created off Earth. They had to be. Hal Caver and Richard Doty tranported the pods directly from the crash site. They were hindered by an outside force. (The glowing alien exhibited powers over the truck like Rath did in the future. Same species?) I suppose that we will get an answer to this within the next few months. ....If this is right, and I see no reason why it can't be, then I conclude the following:
The granolith/pod chamber was created before the crash.
>>>>>Thus Destiny plan has been in operation for longer than fifty years!
>>>>>>>>>>Thus the original ROYALS were in on the plan.

If the proto Royals were the original designers of the Destiny plan, then I think the intent of the entire plan was in fact, to hide the granolith. They had to first collect the "human genetic material" to start the hybridization process. The podding of the ROYAL FOUR would seem to be the last step.

As Zero's excellent summary states,
quote:
Why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day, and never acknowledged Tess as Max’s mate!)

It seems that the destruction of the proto-Royals is timed with protoMax's wedding. Could this have been a rouse? Could this have been planned? That in order to protect and recreate their society, the ROYAL FOUR had to sacrifice their lives, in order to be recreated on a safe world, where the GRANOLITH was protected?

Tess's function could be that of a willing participant to the rouse. What makes me think further that Tess was never truly the BRIDE is that Nicholas did not call Tess the BRIDE (unlike Skin Fallwell). He called her a "genocidal girlfriend."

This Destiny plan gets odder and odder doesn't it? Or is it just me...

PS
StarboxThe girl Liz dislikes is PAM TROY, not MARY TROY.

Any thoughts on the fraternal twins idea, that the occupant of the damaged pod was moved to one of the intact ones? Hence, three pods but four podsters?[/B]

Well Reggie - I will grant you that it was pretty painful to listen to ANYTHING the dupes said! :-) "Yo Lonnie - we like sistahs" could have easily come out of Ava's mouth. :-) :-)

As for your ?? about the twins - I think it all depends - if we operate on the assumption that basic "rules" of human gestation apply (after all - the podsters are half human) - then I would think not.
Fraternal twins do not usually share an amniotic sac and there wouldnt be an umbilical cord/placenta type mechanism to nourish the second fetus (Max has a bellybutton - so they must have been nourished by an umbilical cord :-). The pods should be sterile enviornments - opening one up to put a potentially "sick" (exposed to infection) baby in with a healthy one would be a really risky thing to do (if it could be done at all). Also - if the pods were an organic system - it likely would have "rejected" the intruder/viewed it as a hostile threat in order to protect its own fetus.
Working again from what Hal said - the fetuses looked like "human babies" - so they were later in their fetal development - it wouldnt be like simply putting two embryos or fertilized eggs together. Plus we have the fact that they grew to the size of six year olds in the pods - I doubt a single pod could hold two six year olds.
My feeling is that the fetuses reached gestational maturity - then went into a "latent" phase - then began to mature to the apparent age of 6 year olds.
I dont think anything could have been done to save the "hybrid" baby whoose sac was damaged (unless it could survive outside the womb and was simply born alive in 47) because - we are working with the fact that these kids are half human and have much of the same physiology as a human infant/fetus would. If a human infant's mother's womb (i.e her placenta seperates/womb ruptures/membranes completely rupture) - unless the baby is old enough to survive outside the womb - there is no way to "repair" the damage. I would assume that since the damaged pod was so clearly shown - that it was beyond repair. It looked "sick" to me - as if infection had already set in (I am sure the back of an army jeep is not a sterile enviornment)
Could the alien "essence" be somehow taken out of the hybrid before (or after) it died - I would think that it probably could - after all the got the essence "out" of the royals after THEY died - so the aliens must have a way to save or transfer "essence".
Then again - it could all be a total fantasy show in which they could just zap the fetuses and essences around however they wanted with the magical wave of a glowy hand :-) :-) It wouldnt be the first time Roswell defied science and/or logic. :-)

I just tend to want the pods to be at least similar to a womb - with basic gestational processes intact. Like I said - I went through a big "midwifery" phase about a year ago and trained as doula and the whole bit - so birth processes are just kind of a fascination of mine :-)

Okay this was long and rambling and may make absolutly no sense at all. <sigh>

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Whoa! I think this would prove that the Twilonese had visited Earth before. Even if they did not collect samples of "human genetic material", they certain knew enough about humans to make a "perfect" copy.

I guess the big question is the method of hybridization. And what makes the aliens-aliens? Is it their memories of a former life? (They all have them, Max, Michael and Isabel knew the whirlwind symbol.) Is it their essense - and is essense memories? It seems that their cells are different, but is it really alien. Could it just be their advanced bodies - genetically engineered?

So many questions....

And what about Liz?? How does she fit into this? Does Liz have some genetic makeup that completes the podsters. I truly believe all of them are attracted to her and or jealous of her. Why? Why would Rath want to kiss her, and Lonnie diss her to Rath? Why would Ava instinctively trust Liz and Tess will follow what Liz has to say. Even if Tess knows Liz doesn't trust her. Why?

Does Liz have an alien essense, but her body not genetically engineered? She seems to have no memories of a former life. Was Liz a creation of several generations of planning by the Twilonese, perhaps going back to protoMax's father? Liz seems to be an old soul. Not fascinated with her surroundings, but exerting a power over them.

Even though I do not believe Liz to be an alien, aliens can possess the bodies of humans. Could Liz have been one of these puppets during SH? Given just enough knowledge to assist in finding the orb... Liz is human, but her ties to aliens are incredible. Writers-- answers please!

Melodious1 – As far as whether Zan and Ava were doing the deed, I really can’t say. We know that Lonnie and Rath were “making the beast with two backs.” (Is that what they said? ) But for some reason I got the feeling that Ava and Zan weren’t, though I have no basis for that belief other than that one statement by Ava – which definitely could go along with your interpretation. I guess I was coming from the point of view of maybe they were doing the deed, but that to produce off-spring Zan probably was waiting for someone other than Ava. I’ll take another look at my wording when I revise the Intro next time.

BTW – I liked your description of Zan and Rath having a pissing contest, just like animals in a cave.

Starbox – I totally appreciate everything you bring to this thread! The pictures are a wonderful addition. I can totally relate to what you are going through having taken time off in the past with small children. Even with my crazy schedule now (kids, work, volunteer activities), I find this a fun and stimulating place to visit and share ideas about one of my favorite shows. My husband thinks my a nut, but loves me anyways! I call this escapism at its best!

Also – as those of you who have been around awhile know, I’m a BIG fan of the “aliens have visited Earth for thousands of years” theory, which includes in it my belief that the Twiloians must have come prior to the crash to obtain DNA and possibly did experiments prior to that – so other Hybrids may be running around??? I am truly hoping we get some definitive answers with the Hybrid Chronicles!! Oh, and I also think the pods were in a holding stage, with 1989 chosen deliberately for some reason for the “hatching” year.

So, anyone given more thought to my combined souls idea from the end of the last thread??

Also, THANKS for the compliments about the Intro – the old ego always enjoys a kind word or two!

Off to a PTSA meeting! …

Zero
I Shall Believe!

(1) Consensus seems to be that, if Liz had powers, one would be to see the evil within (as she did with Maxcedo). If we assume that this is indeed a power of hers, wouldn't she have seen the "evil within" Tess by now, if in fact Tess is evil? I would definitely say that Tess' presence has caused some sort of emotional termoil within Liz, the kind of hightened emotions similar to those she experienced in the past when "flashed" (granted, they weren't sexual in nature, but have we determined that that is necessary to get the flash?). Perhaps there needs to be actual contact between Liz and the person in order for her to get the flash (a kiss, a touch)? If not, then perhaps Tess isn't evil? Or perhaps Liz's powers in this department are still unrefined or non-existent? Just food for thought...

(2) Did they ever say how the Dupes were contacted for the summit or how they knew the signal went off? We know how the R4 knew (they set it off), and we know how Brody knew (he had a team investigate it). Did I miss when they explained how the Dupes knew about the signal and how they knew about the summit? Sorry if this is a dumb question. If no one ever explained how they were contacted, though, I would think that sheds a more suspicious light on them - who exactly are they in contact with? Who is feeding them the info they may need?

Ok, thanks for hearing me out....

Does Liz have an alien essense, but her body not genetically engineered? She seems to have no memories of a former life. Was Liz a creation of several generations of planning by the Twilonese, perhaps going back to protoMax's father? Liz seems to be an old soul. Not fascinated with her surroundings, but exerting a power over them.
[/B]

See QFanny - I think this is possible. The aliens obviously have a way to "transfer" "essence". The question would be whether or not they HAVE to use a hybrid to do it.
I would think - that Liz could have alien (or "choosen one") "essence" and NOT be a hybrid. The good old Trojan Horse again.
BTW - I watched EOTW again tonight - those screencaps just put me in the mood and I noticed something interesting. Liz has a bunch of horse stickers on her standing mirror. They were not there last season.
You KNOW about my Liz's room obsession :-) - bear with me on these details :-)
Also - she has another sun on her porch. And finally - this is a little odd - but she has a large picture of a windmill in her room (you can see it in her first confrontation with FMax). Max has a statue of the same style windmill (its modern looking - not an old fashioned windmill) on his desk (you see it in The Convention). Dont really have any theories about that one - but it seems a little odd to me. Windmills are not a typical teenage decoration.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Souls: If God created the Universe then She had to create the part that endures, that survives without changing, after the corporal body ends, and which must be uniform to all. Why would She want it different? Would anybody say that this part of this Universe was created by the Supreme Being we know and that part of the Universe that's, say, 10 million light years away, was created by somebody else: Supreme Being No. 2. That's silly! So: By Her being the Creator of all, she gives Integrity to the Universe, makes us all answerable to One and we are all covered, and answerable, under the same laws that are uniform to all (yes, even studies of chimpanzees agree that they know when they have behaved badly, and they act accordingly!). In other words, all of us on Earth, uniformly KNOW that to kill another being, specially a sentient being, is wrong and that to help another is good. It is interesting to see that cannibal tribes (The Aucas Indians - head-shrinkers), in the middle of the Amazon Jungle, have laws that, when compared, match exactly the ones Moses brought down from the Mountain, and they adore a snake or a mountain or thunder! So.. if that is uniform here, and we know that most things are uniform all throughout the Universe (same 119 elements everywhere, give or take a couple), same shapes that tend to repeat themselves everywhere in Nature, same laws of physics, same chemistry, same everything, then, souls are the same energy everywhere. So… if there is any difference between Earthlings and Twilonians, its merely the differences and/or the corporal changes that surviving would require of their species. I.e.: Just as flora and fauna in Australia / Madagascar is different to the rest of the planet because those were islands that were not privy to migrations that uniformed the rest of the flora/fauna in the other continents /islands, so would be the changes required of the species in other planets because of temperatures, distance from their sun, etc. The conclusion would be that Max's soul is exactly the same as ours, just like Antarians, Borgs, Alpha Centauri, Vegans, Syriuses, etc.

Zan, Rath, Vilandra and Ava had a soul (sentient beings with feelings, reasoning, knowing the difference between good and evil). They died. The moment they died, according to Christian, Jewish, Muslim religions, their souls had to go in front of the Creator in order to stand judgment. If you believe that that energy has only one opportunity of life before it stands judgement, then their souls are in Heaven or Hell. If you believe that they have the opportunity to return until they "learn their lessons", as in most Eastern Religions, then they will be reincarnated in another being. That being, recipient of their souls, could be Twilonian, Earthling, whatever. And we may not know where or who he/she is. Now, let's assume that they were mortally wounded and were next to dying and that, somehow, by use of technology unheard by us, Mom's scientists, theologians, etc., "captured" their souls, which were still part of Z/R/V/A, called it essence and managed to mix it with human DNA they already had in their possession, thus continuing life. Continuing because men / twilonians are not capable of creating life: Max said I'm not God. And that would have been easy if the souls were still there. Dolly's clone is simply a cell with 46 chromosomes (not 2 of 23 each), which is planted into another ewe's womb to grow in uterus as if normally conceived through the sexual act of a male and a female of the species. The moment that living Dolly's-46-chromosome cell, rooted itself in the uterus wall and split in two, life was created. When a sentient being is out of the womb, or pod, we assume a soul is there. If Z/R/V/A's essence was taken before death, then we must assume their souls accompanied their "essence" whatever they mean by that. Hence, it is the same soul. You can't split that energy in two. It's one soul and that's it. If Liz and Max are soulmates, and he is from Twilo and she from Earth, then they met before in one of the two planets (or a third one), and had been separated for ages. Until now. But I don't think Max has half of one and half of the other.

Now - there was a leader in this far, far away planet, who died. His people, loving him so much and knowing he was their only hope, decided to take his "essence" and send it to that blue, beautiful planet, teaming with life, in the outskirts of the Milky Way! There, they took his "essence" and native "human" DNA to make him what he is today.

Each being (humans on Earth) has 46 chromosomes in each cell of his/her body (the cell's blueprint, which tells it what it's going to be, how it's going to behave, reactions, for how long, with what quirks, weaknesses, strengths, etc., etc.). Every cell, except for the reproductive cells (those the female eggs produces and the male testes: the sex cells). They each have only 23 chromosomes simply because, when they meet and join, they form the new cell that will be the beginning of a new being (which, hopefully, will be normal because it'll have the same 46 slices of information every cell must have!). Nature is so wonderful that, each piece of information that comes from daddy also comes from mommy (as a matter of fact, they come in pairs and are repeated more than once!). But... Nature gets to choose which it will take - mommy's or daddy's and they usually take the healthiest. If both are, then it'll choose the dominant one! That's how the strongest survive and the weakest (i.e. Neanderthals) die out. In case of a genetic decease that occurs in one side of the family, chances are, if the other side is not a carrier, then the child will come out healthy because Nature would have chosen the decease free cell determining that part of the child's make-up! That's why a child only gets 65 roses (cystic fibrosis) when both parents are carriers (I think it's a Nordic European trait), not if only one is. Now: a human female's egg is impregnated (??) by an alien sperm. Unless the alien sperm has 46 chromosomes, which carry the same information ours do (impossible because his physiology, nomenclature, features, everything is different), (and chances are the number of chromosomes is also different), then what would come out (if it would come out, which we'll see later on is impossible), the offspring would be a freak of nature, with horrific overall features/qualities, which wouldn't allow the poor baby to survive! Why? i.e. human chromosome for eyes gets together with alien: which one do you choose if they are sending conflicting instructions? mine say 2 inches, brown iris on a white background. Yours say black iris covering the entire 5 inches? How do you do that. What will the body do with chromosome # 57, which doesn't have a counterpart on the other side? So... it's impossible. (As a matter of fact, that's precisely why...say..an elephant cannot mix and reproduce when crossed with a ...giraffe or a dog or whatever... they don't have the same amount of chromosomes in their sex cells)! More on donkeys and horses later... not now!

Let's address the question of whether they can have a baby: let's assume the building instruction manual for both is in English (meaning compatible, that they understand each other and can "work together"), then the 23 chromosomes for each partner would meet on the ring and fight it out for every single feature the baby will have: however, chances are the strongest in one feature will also be the strongest in the rest of the features so.... the baby would come out like one of the parents and nothing of the other! As for the rest of the chromosomes (unless you assume the alien too has 23 chromosomes in each sex cell, which I don't think), then whichever partner has the "extra" chromosomes wins because the baby will simply take those instructions or features of that parent as his own and that's it! I would like to believe Earthlings are strong (look what we have survived) and have a fighting chance in this battle but... the answer depends on you and your imagination! If the alien is one like the ones in "War of the Worlds" (probably way before a lot of posters here's time, but worth the trip to the video rental place), then we win because they have no germ defenses and are physically weak! ET: we would win! Any guest in the bar in Star Wars I (not the recent one - the one with Han Solo), we would probably loose! It all depends. Max's world: I think we would win: anybody who kills Max is an undeserving race which doesn't deserve to live . Besides, don't forget: if they are that barbaric that they would "force" their beloved leader to marry a snake, they deserve to be tortured all the deaths of the "Gulag Archipelago"! Don't make me go there.....

If Max looks like Max it's simply because his building instructions manual said to build him like Max. If it said he is an alien, build him like an alien, then he would look like a greyling. The fact that he doesn't means HE HAS THE DNA OF A HUMAN, 46 CHROMOSOMES!! Roswell, the TV series, can say whatever they want to to make our lives difficult but if he looks like a human, smells like a human, talks like a human, swims like a human, walks like a human, then..... in spite of any SS out there, HE IS A HUMAN or... in this case, because of his special additions/gifts/powers: a humanoid, which is what science calls humans with additions/gifts/powers! Period. But the Pilot.... that is science-fiction, they did not read their Biology 101. Put it another way: in order to look like Max, your blood HAS TO look exactly like Lizzie's. Or: if his blood looks like his does in the Pilot, then he would look like Ed Harding, in one of the changeling manifestations, while reviving in Destiny! No cross references here!

Max is a humanoid with an alien soul and "maybe" memories. Since the soul is that intangible that MUST be uniform to all sentient beings, and because, after all, there is only One God, no matter what us foolish humans try to do to Her, then Max's soul is exactly like Liz's!

Could Max have babies with Liz, the answer would be yes because his book of instructions clearly spells out the construction of an earthling, terran, humanoid being, which, if mixed with another human's chromosomes would clearly give as a result a human/humanoid baby! Would this baby inherit his father's (in this case) superior qualities? The answer is yes because that would be the dominant, stronger factor. The alien essence (or extra qualities/powers/gifts) would have had to be introduced into the nucleus of the cell covered by a coating of protein, introduced by a benign virus (virus, for their survival and our disgrace, have the power to simulate features that make our cells accept them inside and, once there, they start eating away at our food storage/defenses/whatever). I will look for the scientific description of this tomorrow and will post it. And clarify all of the above. I was away for a couple of days and missed reading and writing so I had to take revenge!! he he he

Well, daughter number three turned 12 today, so I'm too tired after that & work to read everything, but the last Liz Mythology thread is up at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology , as are (belatedly) the archived Surprise threads.

I totally agree with that. I think that their disappearing has everything to do with the contact with the skins. Someone posted before that they thought it was like the oldest who was the first to go, Valenti and down the line.

Faile has written a fanfic about the connection of Max and Liz both now and previously. Which I agree with, and I was wondering if anyone else did, or maybe people have brought it up before, I don't know.

This is pretty much the essence of what she wrote:

Max as the King on Twilo in his past life was deeply in love with a girl he could not marry because the marriage would have been for love and not for any political reasons. She died before he did, sacrificing her life to save him and their planet (after working closely with one of his intelligence people on a secret mission. It was because of her that many things happened and she was able to help him in ways no one else was.) He ended up having to marry Tess for political reasons to bring warring factions together, etc.

As a child, Max had been told a story by his mother that souls were created in halves, and that each half was given to two people and if they did not find each other or end up together, then their souls would find each other in another life.

Max's essence, as we know, was sent to earth and combined with run of the mill human DNA to become a hybrid. Now what Faile suggests is that he of course kept his half of the soul, and that Liz was reborn as a human with the other half of the soul. This is why Max had an instant connection to Liz when he got off the bus that fateful day. And of course, she was essential to his survival in their past lives, and IS in this one as well. So, what do you guys think?

As for the hybrids being physically 100% human with 100% human DNA - I dont know if thats what the writers are going to do (bad science fiction or not) - it seems to me that they have implied that the kids are somehow a combination (physically speaking). Max looks human but he has weird blood, Michael gets all webby when he loses "balance" and runs a fever of 112+, the kids never get sick (blood brothers), heal from injury extremely fast (blood brothers again), one sip of alcohol causes some sort of reaction in their body chemistry. They have some physical traits that are just not "human". I may be wrong - it just seems to be what they have implied so far.
We dont know - if aliens colonized earth long ago - then perhaps they were - on Twilo - simply "highly evolved" but similar enough to be able to "mate". Humans and Twilonians (at least of the "royals kind" could be a very similar species.
We never got those history lessons that were supposed to come later :-)
I dont know much at all (okay - nothing) about science fiction as a genre and even less about actual biochemistry - so feel free to throw any of this out the window :-)

DreamerVixen -
Yes, I think that the scenario you wrote about is plausable :-) Max and Liz share alot of the same symbols (ex. the sun, the windmill) and the speculation that they are somehow "twin souls" is a very good one :-) - It would certianly go along with the cannon of imagery/symbolism that exists to this point.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

A few quick thoughts:
Aledbaran – We really don’t know if the Dupes heard the signal when the communicators went off or how they were contacted about summit. All we know is that when the communicators went off a signal originated from both Roswell and NYC at the same time – this according to Brody’s computer. BUT, we do not know what the source of the NYC signal was. We can only speculate. AND we do not know if there is any direct connection between the signal and the contact of the Dupes for the Summit. For all we know, the Dupes came to the Aliens’ attention somehow, and were invited. How they came to the Aliens’ attention, we don’t know. We know that Zan had been contacted once or twice before his death, that is all – and we don’t know who actually contacted him.

Starbox – I always think of Don Quixote when I think of Windmills. You English majors can explain it better, but I consider it the pursuit of a noble cause even if it is imaginary.

Bluecornmoon – Excellent description of Souls and the DNA process! It will be interesting how close to real science the Roswell writer stick. I know with X-Files they have a consultant who reviews the science, but have a feeling the Roswell is lacking the overview. We shall see. Glad to know that M&L could have little ones!!

Dreamervixen – We weren’t ignoring you. Never take it personally. I have been so busy, … But a theory very similar to that one has been discussed before, and I feel it is a good one if we go the route of Liz originating from Twilo. Time will tell!

Well – off to work and play – I usually don’t work much on Friday, the luxury of telecommuting and owning your own business!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Now - could it be - Sheila Hubble?

Just thinking out loud here - if I dont post the screencaps I cant view them side by side.
:-)
**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Qfanny,

I've got a bit of catching up to do on this thread, but I wanted to say I like your idea about the wedding ruse and the sacrifice to protect the granilith. It makes a good deal of sense to me.

About what you've said here, I'm with you. I even think mom was talking about Liz in the mommogram; it's a second example where Tess and Liz are both present when the bride is mentioned, and it's not at all clear who is implied by the conversation! That Tess...

I started to write a bit last night about the theory that Courtney was projecting the visions of Tess in Surprise, but my family was in evening crash mode - feed me, do this, where's this, MOM, HONEY... Let's just say it was a bad time for me to be hovering over my computer. I had to readjust my priorities! Anyway, is it possible that Tess, CW and Courtney were working together in Surprise to harm Isabel? How would that theory play out? After watching it with the Courtney factor I thought it was highly possible Tess was faking the whole thing. Shame, shame! And I was beginning to relax about her!

This just reminded me of how much Tess's picture doesn't look like the others. The lack of shading on the face for one, and it looks newer, as if it was added later or not done by the same artist. Is this book on some kind of old parchment-type paper, or is it carved in stone tablets? Just curious, it's hard to tell from the screencap.

Zara: I had the same thoughts. It seemed strange to me that CW didn't just kill Tess once she had Isabel. If Tess was the bride, and was of great importance to the R4's return and survival, wouldn't it have benefitted the skins' cause for CW to kill her when she had the chance? And why would Tess contact Isabel when she is supposed to be "so connected" to Max? CW could have told her specifically to do it. The whole situation just seems to suspicious.

Hey Qfanny, here is the exact quote:

GREER: You mustn't be in such a hurry to leave us. It appears our long search for the
royal four has finally ended. How convenient of you to deliver yourselves to us.

MAX: She's not one of us. Let her go.

IDA: She's a human who knows too much. It's a darn shame, 'cause she's awfully cute.

GREER: You must be the once and future king. And his bride.

TESS: That's right.

GREER: You won't remember me, but I remember you. This is a moment I've waited for a
long time.

either Ida jumped up to fast and spoke up because she knew that Liz was human. Or maybe Greer wasnt sure who the bride was, hence "you must be"

Starbox: Hope you don't mind me making a comment about this! I have always thought that the picture next to Michael looks like Liz and that the picture next to Max looks like Isabel with curly hair (like in ARCC) I have tried stating this before in another group, but got shot down! Hope I don't make anyone here upset, not my intention. I am just really sure that is not Tess.

Also, the name "ZIL" above "Liz's"head is convincing to me!

In World Lit, we're reading The Epic of Gilgamesh which is a story about a hero who is 2/3 divine and 1/3 human. During his travels, he becomes king of a city that he basically builds. He's a bad king, corrupting the young. He takes first rights with the brides and sends the young men of the city off on whatever errands, etc. please him. Then the gods create his soulmate. When Gilgamesh meets his soulmate, he becomes a "better" person, a more humane person.

Max is king and Liz is his soulmate. Part of why Liz is so important could be that she has to help Max recognize his humanness.

Maybe I'm totally barking up a wrong tree here. At any rate, you guys really get me thinking and I love coming here everyday.

[B}"As for the hybrids being physically 100% human with 100% human DNA - I dont know if thats what the writers are going to do (bad science fiction or not) - it seems to me that they have implied that the kids are somehow a combination (physically speaking)."[/B]

Well, they are not 100% human. They have the alien essence inside their DNA. As I said, it probably would have been introduced into the cell by a benign virus, coated by a layer of protein, but it's there, that's why they have the powers they have. The only problem I have is that the blood cells should have appeared the same as ours. If Pierce would have shown a double helix strand, and said it had an extra element they couldn't decipher (maybe an X instead of only the 4 T,C,G,A), then I would have believed him. The bad sci-fi here was that they showed blood platelets, not DNA, as they should have!

Michael gets all webby when he loses "balance"and runs a fever of 112+, again), one sip of alcohol causes some sort of reaction in their body chemistry.

All understandable and explainable. The fact that they don't get sick or heal fast is just that they were given extra protection against virus and bacteria and the "extra" powers they possess. We are only a few years away of giving a new life those same strong defenses in lab right here on Earth!

I disagree, QFanny.

Why settle for a copy, when she could see the real thing. She could/should visit Stonehenge. AND as it is only a 30 minute drive from my house, she could stay with me.

WR.
(BTW, you all know I'm a guy, right?)

Starbox and GraceKel: You are both such great mythologists I am a bit intimidated in sharing my $.02 but here it goes. On windmills, I did a bit of reseach. There were a couple of sites that had things that caught my eye. Not sure if it helps much tho'.

The first is www.dinderdijk.com/HISTORY.htm
In it it talks about floods and a particular disaster called and "Elisabeth's flood" disaster".

The next is http://servercc.oakton.edu/wittman/mills/history.htm
It basically refers to windmills as helping with crops. Such as wheat, corn, etc. Could this have something to do with the wheat symbols that seem to come up on hats and such on Roswell. I'm also trying to remember a theory, something from many threads ago, that someone came up with about corn...

Well, just putting this out there. You guys are much better at putting things together that I am. I hope this helps!

Now - could it be - Sheila Hubble?

Just thinking out loud here - if I dont post the screencaps I cant view them side by side.
:-)
**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

IMPORTANT!! PLEASE READ!! IMPORTANT!!!

I just had a CRAZY thought. What if those pictures in the 'destiny' book aren't of our podsters at all -- but of the folks who donated the HUMAN DNA?

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but we could probably spin some theories off of that possiblity.

That could very well be Sheila Hubble...the timing seems right. If we assume that very old picture in the promos for TSAP is of Michael's DNA 'donor', then we can assume that the podsters look exactly like whoever they got the human DNA from. That would mean Liz isn't....

Anyway...

...It seemed strange to me that CW didn't just kill Tess once she had Isabel. If Tess was the bride, and was of great importance to the R4's return and survival, wouldn't it have benefitted the skins' cause for CW to kill her when she had the chance? And why would Tess contact Isabel when she is supposed to be "so connected" to Max? CW could have told her specifically to do it. The whole situation just seems to suspicious.

On the first comment: it's been mentioned by many but worth repeating that we see the podsters lit in half-light/half-darkness like a yin/yang over and over again. I feel sure it represents the balance, and possibly the alien essence/human soul. Do we ever see Tess in that kind of light? Gracekel? Remember, I'm the non-visual one...

On to the second: CW continues to be somewhat of a mystery to me. We know she killed Edsedo and we know from her diary that she had had some kind of falling out with Niko (betrayal?) in earlier days. We also know she's got that whole loop thing going on in the way she perceives her life (RLR ref).

There are as many or more things we don't know. Whose side is she on? Is she one of Courtney's bunch, one of Niko's or something else still? I find that scene where she's playing drunk and asking Liz about Max and Tess confusing. Is that conversation related to the subsequent torture of Tess? (That is, assuming it wasn't faked...)

Even though I have no solid theory, I wonder if CW knew more about Liz's destiny than we've been led so far to believe. Did she hire her simply in hopes of finding the royal 4 or was there more to it than that? Could the assault against Is (and Tess) have been in protection of Liz and her position in the game? You know, as far as the proto-royals story goes, Liz would be a threat to Vilandra, wouldn't she? I know, that's way out there...

For that matter, I think we can be sure our Liz usually does things for a darned good reason. Why did she seek out that job with CW? Was it to get near the Special Unit files? Was it simply out of a need to protect M,M,I(and Tess)? If so, it was very proactive of her - it means she knew that even though it looked like Max had another destiny, she knew hers was to protect them.

Sometimes I feel like Liz and Max BOTH can see the complete picture and they have a kind of intuitive sense for what to do next. For example, Max healing Liz - I think he knew "ok, here it is - it's happening (again?) She's the one and it's my job to help her." That whole "it was you" thing.

I'm rambling and I'm full of questions and low on answers.

[b]I just had a CRAZY thought. What if those pictures in the 'destiny' book aren't of our podsters at all -- but of the folks who donated the HUMAN DNA?

[/B]

Great theory! That makes sense. The only problem is, I think we figured it out that Shiela Hubble was probably born in the late 1940's. So, it may be difficult for her to have been around to have been the donor.

[b]I just had a CRAZY thought. What if those pictures in the 'destiny' book aren't of our podsters at all -- but of the folks who donated the HUMAN DNA?

Good job, Metaphysicalgrl! That's a pretty amazing idea. There's still the issue that one face is not shaded, but, you know, you're right; the pictures aren't very good renditions of the R4. The only one that looks good is Max. (double entendre fully intended...)

The Skins apparently don't have DNA. (from Harvest, I think). Either the podster's race did have DNA or they found some mystical way to introduce a soul into human cells. Or maybe they used a combination of the alien equivalent of DNA and souls.

The soul thing is way beyond what is scientifically conceivable now. But it is an interesting thought.

Here's the image you have linked:

screencap courtesy of crashdown.com

I am going to have rewatch it now. Oh, the terror! But in regards to the Saturn-Destiny Book, I have never thought it to be manipulated by Tess. Here's the reason why. In The White Room, Nasedo/Harding said something to the affect that the podsters cannot manipulate heavy molecules. The book is made of metal. Metal would be made of heavy molecules. I thought the whole reason why the writers decided to make the book metal was so the podsters could not change it. What's there is there. It cannot be erased or changed.

But, if the pictures do change, it would seem that the book would not be made of heavy molecules. Thus debunking my brillant theory.

Alas, my life is hell.

MAX: Oh. What about the Crashdown?

LIZ: Well, this really incredible opportunity came up sort of out of the...

(Someone arrives out of the blue and walks up to Liz)

WHITAKER: You must be Liz Parker.
But she definitely does use her position to help/protect the podsters (in S&B).

GREER: You mustn't be in such a hurry to leave us. It appears our long search for the
royal four has finally ended. How convenient of you to deliver yourselves to us.

MAX: She's not one of us. Let her go.

IDA: She's a human who knows too much. It's a darn shame, 'cause she's awfully cute.

GREER: You must be the once and future king. And his bride.

TESS: That's right.

GREER: You won't remember me, but I remember you. This is a moment I've waited for a
long time.

either Ida jumped up to fast and spoke up because she knew that Liz was human. Or maybe Greer wasnt sure who the bride was, hence "you must be"The way Tess said "that's right" always struck me as odd. I don't have the tape handy, so I don't know if Greer looked directly at Tess when he said bride, but even if he did, it could have been a test. Recall from silverhandprint.com that CW isn't even sure which podgirl is Vilondra. Tess's words' emphasis seemed to imply that she didn't like the implication that Liz was the bride--but was this just jealousy, or is it because she is a protector, covering Liz's true identity?

Metaphysicalgrl--hope we find out in the weeks ahead if the book was based on the original humans.

DreamerVixen, My personal problem with stories like Faile's is that it removes some of the serendipity of the Max/Liz relationship and almost makes it a type of "Destiny."

reguru et al, at silverhandprint.com CW says she didn't know anything about Liz when she hired her--but I don't count on the script writers to follow everything at slvhndprnt.

WR - I confess - I thought you were female (no reason - I assume everone is female unless the have an obviously masculine name) :-) - nice to know we have some men posting and contributing the MALE PERSPECTIVE :-) :-)

GraceKel - I had no idea there were so many windmills :-) Alas - I know not what they mean but I am sure they mean something :-)

CKitten - thanks for the info! It actually reminds me of some discussion of Rosta's sighns and symbols board - evidently there is this whole bean and corn thing going on - and stuff in Harvest and Copper Summit links to a company that does genetic engineering on crops (I think Pa Whittaker had a hat with the logo on it???) Anyway - it lead to one of my all time favorite posts when (I think it was SF) said "Roswell is all about happy hybridization" I confess that the whole genetic engineering/hybridization thing is WAY over my un-scientific mind.

BlueCornMoon :-) - Hey - I MEANT that compliment! Seriously - I am SO woefully ignorant of anything scientific - your perspective is quite helpful to me :-) And thanks for respomding to my questions about the "humanness" of the DNA - I think I finally get it. :-)
And my kid ended up having strep throat - which is okay by me - at least we can treat it with an antibiotic. The little girl he ADORES at school has had strep so I wasnt too suprised. :-)

Eleven - I think that picture is supposed to be the podsters as kids. (Still doesnt look like 6 year old Isabel to me)

Metaphysical - great perspecrive and speculation as always.

:-) Thats about it for me :-) I am feeling very optimistic about the direction this season is heading. Rewatching EOTW I remember just how DEPRESSING it was at the time to think that TPTB might put Max and Tess together for a time - but that seems to have passed and things are looking up! New episodes start Monday and Max believes in Liz again :-)
:-) :-) :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Ig ig ig ig... !!!!!!!!

We never noticed that. I know I didn't, I don't remember anyone mentioning it.

It kinda looks like the kids- the 6-year old versions of the podsters. The lettering is different, too: no ZIL, for one thing.
I thought we'd seen everything. Guess not. Must think........

Hey! I'm a guy, and I'm on (and on and on and on...) here with my perspective. So are Kzinti Killer, Elliot, and a few others.

Come to think of it, where's Elliot gotten to? It's been a while since he was visible?

CharmedKitten--thanks for the info on the WINDMILLS and the CORN---so CORNBALL huh? hmmmm!!! Wasn't that company DeKalb? Or something like that? I forget I think we need NEMO to answer this one.

Bluecornmoon, Qfanny and others I haven't really had a chance to look at those long posts you guys made about DNA yet but I hope to get to it this evening.

The podsters cannot move the Eagle Military Base doors because:

ISABEL: I could do that. I’ve gotten through doors before.
NASEDO: That isn’t some deadbolt up there. That door is made up of depleted Uranium; a metal composed of heavy atoms, which we can’t manipulate.
ISABEL: We can’t?
NASEDO: You have many limitations.
MICHAEL: They know about them?
NASEDO: They know more about you than you do. They’ve been studying us for fifty years. The only way to gain entry is to get through ....

Depleted Uranium. They can change everything else. They could change those books!, or should I say... the gerbil most definitely must have changed the pictures!! (my unfounded opinion! my unfounded opinion only!!!)

ISABEL: I could do that. I’ve gotten through doors before.
NASEDO: That isn’t some deadbolt up there. That door is made up of depleted Uranium; a metal composed of heavy atoms, which we can’t manipulate.
ISABEL: We can’t?
NASEDO: You have many limitations.
MICHAEL: They know about them?
NASEDO: They know more about you than you do. They’ve been studying us for fifty years. The only way to gain entry is to get through ....

The door cannot be opened because it is composed of heavy atoms/molecules. They just so happen to be uranium. I would think that anything with a heavier atomic weight would also be impossible to manipulate.

Source: ]http://atlas.chemistry.uch.gr/ptoe/main.htm

Uranium has an atomic number is 92. I would think that anything with an atomic number higher than 92 would also be too heavy to manipulate. I theorize that some elements with an atomic number lower than 92 would also be impossible to manipulate by the podsters. I think the old SciFi starting point is Lead, which has an atomic number of of 82. Which would mean that the book is made of a metal that is heavier than lead. Or it could be a fancy alloy. Perhaps having enough heavy atoms mixed in with lighter ones to cause the material not to be manipulated.

I have decided that the dupes while they may look like the royal 4, are just that, dupes(meant to deceive). Who were they meant to deceive? Whoever was necessary. They would have gone to the summit, if Zan had not refused. They would have readily agreed to the terms of Ki'var. They can change the way they look to deceive others as well, Liz included. And besides, if the mission to send the royals to earth is so critical, you don't send an inferior product, not even to use in case something happens. I just don't believe that mom would have sent them both. My theory is that they were added at the last minute by someone with his own agenda. If that person, was of high enough rank, the pilots on the ship would not question the addition, they would just follow orders. Then on earth, if something happened to the royal 4, the dupes could be substituted by that person with no one the wiser.

I am rambling now, so I will get off my soapbox.

Source: ]http://atlas.chemistry.uch.gr/ptoe/main.htm

Uranium has an atomic number is 92. I would think that anything with an atomic number higher than 92 would also be too heavy to manipulate. I theorize that some elements with an atomic number lower than 92 would also be impossible to manipulate by the podsters. I think the old SciFi starting point is Lead, which has an atomic number of of 82. Which would mean that the book is made of a metal that is heavier than lead. Or it could be a fancy alloy. Perhaps having enough heavy atoms mixed in with lighter ones to cause the material not to be manipulated.

I hate to contradict anyone, but we do not know what kind of metal the book is made out of, therefore we can not surmise that the book molecules could not be manipulated. Also that would shoot down my theory of why the shading on the pictures are different on Tess than on the other 3 and we can't have that. hehehe

You know this might be a crazy theory, but after watching MTD and MITC I beganed to wonder if Max had two sisters back on Twilo. One who was truly the warrior(but not well known), and the other being Vilandra(the older sister). Some how the Vilandra's essence ended up being one of the dupes, maybe on purpose, and Vilandra ended up in New York as Lonnie. Isabel could really have the essence of the warrior sister(whoever she was) and Lonnie would have the essence of Vilandra. In MITC Max told Tess he found it hard to believe that Lonnie and Rath had the same dna as Michael and Isabel, well maybe they don't have the same dna. I know that theory has a lot of holes in it, but I just wanted to throw it out there. If Lonnie is anything like what Vilandra was like, I find it hard to believe that Vilandra/Isabel was tricked into betraying anyone, and I find it hard to believe that mother dearest would send Vilandra's essence to earth, mixed with human dna or not, so that she could eventually come back and "save" them. After she betrayed all of them, and ultimately got "everyone killed," bringing w down the whole house of cards. It just doesn't make sense. I know if I was their mother there's no way I would've sent Vilandra's essence to Earth after what happened on Twilo.

We create our own destiny....Max/FMax

aldeberan-about Liz seeing the evil within, and why did she not see the evil within Tess (assuming Tess is evil, which I don't, but anyway) in Surprise, Liz clearly states to Isabel "I don't trust her" in reference to Tess. So apparently Liz does get some kind of bad vibe from Tess.

Dayneen-about Vilandra/Isabel--in the cut scenes from Destiny the MoG said that Vilandra was a warrior on Twilo.

Qfanny-ITA with megageekgirl that we have no idea what type of material the book is made of. (Cadmium X anyone? ) It could be made of anytype of metal, or even some alien compound we don't know of. Also with regards to what the podsters can and can't manipulate...what exactly do you consider manipulation? Cause they have melted all kinds of metal (ie Kyle's locker at school, the lock on Valenti's window, the closet door knob).

Now I have to say when I first saw the book I just thought it was bad artistry...but when I checked the screencaps, only Isabel's pic is nothing like her. The others are good except for Michael's hair, how did the Twilonese know about his spikes?? I liked the idea of the book showing pics of the humans they got their DNA from, except in the photo Michael and Isabel see, no spikes...so maybe that was just S1 Michael hair--who could've known what Michael's hair would be doing this season?

Anyway, there is my $.02
Val

So maybe the podsters only got their old life essence and a new soul and their old souls went elsewhere.

And maybe that's why Max recognized Liz at first sight. He recognized himself in her.

GREER: You mustn't be in such a hurry to leave us. It appears our long search for the
royal four has finally ended. How convenient of you to deliver yourselves to us.

MAX: She's not one of us. Let her go.

IDA: She's a human who knows too much. It's a darn shame, 'cause she's awfully cute.

GREER: You must be the once and future king. And his bride.

TESS: That's right.

GREER: You won't remember me, but I remember you. This is a moment I've waited for a
long time.

either Ida jumped up to fast and spoke up because she knew that Liz was human. Or maybe Greer wasnt sure who the bride was, hence "you must be"

Actually, when Max says, "She's not one of us. Let her go," he looks and gestures in Liz's direction. That would presumably have been enough of a clue as to which one of the girls was the human. I agree with shapeshifter that the way Tess said "That's right" was a little weird. Personally, I thought it sounded possessive, esp. when combined with the way she raised her chin and moved closer to Max.

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
Could Liz have been one of those puppets during SH? Given just enough knowledge to assist in finding the orb...Liz is human, but her ties to aliens are incredible.

OK, I only saw SH for the first time 2 weeks ago (along with 3/4 of season 1, for the first time! ). A friend was wonderful enough to send me a copy of just SH, though, and I've now watched it enough times to be able to think about it. It seemed to me that not just Liz, but possibly Max as well, were being manipulated in some way. Esp. when in Michael's apt. The kiss in the CD earlier was passionate, but more...I hesitate to say normal, but can't think of anything else right now Later on at Michael's, the intensity level was just through the roof even before anything actually happened, physically speaking. It seemed--elevated, or something. I'm sure this was discussed last year after SH aired, but I'm throwing it out there b/c I only just saw it, and I may have seen it a little differently coming to it all backwards!!

bluecornmoon Excellent detailed post about the DNA, etc. I agree that the alien "essence" was most likely introduced via a virus. BTW, did you get my e-mail? I'll be done part 5 this weekend--I'll send it along again then

Zero Great beginning, as usual! I have been MIA for the last two threads or so (life getting in the way of my computer time, too!), so I esp. appreciated your thoroughness

Norma Bates It was so great to meet you! I'm so sorry that I wasn't able to talk to you more, but I had to watch the eps since I'd never seen any of them before!!

DreamerVixen Hey, hon! Nice to see you here. Feels strange to type out your whole name now I like Faile's idea too.

OK, I know I've been gone for a LOOONG time, so I have some catching up to do on the last couple of threads. I've missed this thread so much! I can't even lurk at work anymore (one reason I'm so far behind ) b/c someone was caught playing solitaire and subsequestly we were all banned from any non-work-related computer use I do have one idea to talk about, though; I hope it hasn't been discussed yet, if so, sorry!

The Granolith Chamber
I think that the shape of the granolith and its chamber are important. The granolith itself is conical, and should act as a funnel for power. We kind of see this in EOTW, with the lightning coming out the top. I realize that usually the narrow end ot the funnel is the "out" end, but the base is conical too, and it seems that the base is actually the power source as that's where FMax inserts the crystal. Now, the chamber: it's not quite perfectly round, it's ridged. What it actually reminds me of is a compass rose, or mariner's compass (I'll have to dig up a pic, but behr with me for now, please!). A compass rose is a design based on the four points of the compass, though usually they are done in 8 or 12 points for added beauty. In terms of magical energy (again behr with me--I read a LOT of fantasy), the compass rose can function as a power-gathering pattern. The focus of the gathered power is the centre of the pattern--here, that would be the granolith. If the chamber served to gather power--of whatever kind--and channel it to the granolith, which then amplified it through its funnel effect...we would have a HUGE amount of power available to whomever knew how to use it. Does this make sense to anyone else? Responses, please!

I do have one question about the crystal in EOTW, and I'd really appreciate it if anyone and everyone could answer me! When FMax inserts the crystal into the granolith's base, can anyone see whether or not there is a hole where he's inserting it, or if it just kind of slides into the base like it was sliding into water? My tape copy isn't real good for the beginning of EOTW, and I don't have a GraceKel function on my VCR. Actually, one other question: what kind of crystal does it seem to be? To me, it looks like common rose quartz, but again, not good tape quality Thanks in advance to whomever answers!
~Tas

There are two other background items that make me wonder the same thing. (1) In the Pilot, art-room scene, when Liz learns that M/I are also aliens, and we get a close-up of her reaction -- on the wall behind her it looks like three faces and something like a puppet on a string. (2) In TLV (I think), cafe scene where the sheriff returns the orb, on the back wall, in line formation, are three hats and a flat brown object (like a cardboard cutout or a gingerbread cookie) with a human outline. Again, the hats have depth, the cutout does not.

Here's the image you have linked:

screencap courtesy of crashdown.com

I am going to have rewatch it now. Oh, the terror! But in regards to the Saturn-Destiny Book, I have never thought it to be manipulated by Tess. Here's the reason why. In The White Room, Nasedo/Harding said something to the affect that the podsters cannot manipulate heavy molecules. The book is made of metal. Metal would be made of heavy molecules. I thought the whole reason why the writers decided to make the book metal was so the podsters could not change it. What's there is there. It cannot be erased or changed.

But, if the pictures do change, it would seem that the book would not be made of heavy molecules. Thus debunking my brillant theory.

Alas, my life is hell.

Q fanny - How do you explain Iz's ability to blast the hole in the door while saving Tess in "Surprise"? BTW - I always thought of those picture to be of the podsquad as little kids - at the time of hatching. BUT also notice that the pictures look more like the original images we got from M/M/I than the later ones that we got when Tess arrived in town. I think the book and its origins are very suspect! And will continue to believe that until given more information on it. It seemed to appear, and has not been seen this entire season???? I do agree that it makes sense that the grown up pictures could be of the donors with the expectations that this is what the future podsters would resemble. ???

Zero
I Shall Believe!

TESS: Test?

LONNIE: Not you. Just him. They wanna make sure you're the real king before they sit down, but don't worry, you'll pass.

What if Zan refused to go to the Summit because he knew that he would NOT pass the test of the Emissary, and the fact that they were Dupes (facts) would become known??

Zero
I Shall Believe!

The Idea of Liz being the Key to Max becoming a better Ruler or a King is definately the best case scenario for me. She completes and complements him by becoming his confidant. He is able to bounce ideas off of her and be given an honest answer.

If any of you have ever read Dune the relationship of Duke Leto and Lady jessica or Paul and Chani is interesting, they both are equals acting for the best of there mates. Lady Jessica serves as a concubine(no wife or other concubines)/ally. Her duties go beyond her status, she even comments how she could be a secretary for her duke. Jessica only wants the best for him and even stays as his concubine instead of his wife. Because of her love for him,Chani also does the same selfless act.They both think of there soulmates and there people puting there mates destiny or Rule before themselves(I.e. Liz giving up max because of his destiny)

I haven't read the entire book yet(I don't want it to end) but Chani and jessica are both strong characters. They have some of the same characteristics as Liz.

OT: It has been suggested for various reasons that maybe Mr. Evans is alien. These lines from ARCC could be an allusion to Mr. Evans having the silver handprint: quote:DIANE: Philip, put your finger here. I mean, one day those children were at death's door, and the next day they were completely healed. That wasn't medicine, honey. And the part about the imprint of the hand on each of the children. I mean, if that isn't enough to get you to believe in God, then I don't know what is. Can you put your finger there? And, I mean, maybe it's even enough to, uh...get Max to join us at midnight services tonight.

[/B]

After having several conversations/arguments with myself, I find watching Roswell much more interesting, also. LOL

I'm a nice bunch of gals but...

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Actually there's a fanfic out with that theory. Zan knows he's not the king and wouldn't pass the test, but Lonnie, Rath and Ava don't know this. That's why he didn't want to go to the summit. He was a guard specifically sent to take King Max's place in the dupe pod (expecting trouble.) The dupes really were the stalking horses to protect M/M/I/T. "There can be only one king."

Shapeshifter, I noticed right away that Diane had to ask Philip twice - it bugged me; I thought it was sloppy editing. Now that you mention it, it makes alot more sense that it was intentional. I see your point! Good catch.

This falls right in with what many of us have been thinking about Tess. There are just too many senerios that look as if she is being the puppet for the skins, Nicholas or someone. Senerios like; CW not killing her, things she says, her reactions being so strong about the destiny thing, the Lonnie & Rath thing (who knows what really happened??), plus the big thing of why did Nesado find her and not the others and why didn't he teach the others the things that he supposedly taught Tess??

So who is pulling Tess's strings???

We create our own destiny....Max/Fmax

Tasyfa: I thought that Tess' behavior at CW's wake was just her pride in being acknowledged as what she wants to be acknowledged for: being Max's Bride! But then, of course, what do I know….

I can't find the place to write my assessment of your great fanfic! I loved it! I envy you your brains and your imagination!!! I'll e-mail you!!! Please send Part 5 asap. I'm dying to find out what happens next!

Nemo: I bow to your greatness! But then, I bow to everybody's greatness here! he he he

Zero: If you are cloning a being (same 46 chromosomes), then it's very easy to know what they will look like when adults! Even us, humble terrestrials, already have that technology at our fingertips (Dolly, anyone?).

Alienfactor: I agree with you: Tess asking information about Vanessa at her age has always given me the creeps! That was a look of adoration/worshipping, if I ever saw one! There's a lot about that girl that we don't know yet!!!

I read all the Dune books a long time ago and I loved them, but I remember one thing well: After reading Book I, and waiting for so long for the sequel, I almost died of frustration while reading the first page of Book Two! Enjoy this one while you can! And e-mail me if you want to scream and shout later one!!!! He he he

SS: Re: Mr. Evans' fingerprint. Yes. Another reason to think that Max and Isabel were not abandoned by their protector!

Exactly! This would make sense, even if Ron Moore wouldn't have come up with the Granolith concept for Season II. If you notice the emission of waves, when the orb sent its message during Destiny, it did take advantage of the shape of the mountain to do just that! Besides, as it needs a source to gather, channel and then send that power, I say it's connected, somehow, to the core of the planet! Where else would it find the energy it needs to function? PSE&G!
(PSE&G is the utility company in North New Jersey: Public Service Electric & Gas!).

BTW, as Shapeshifter said, you can't see if the pink rod is inserted in a hole at the Granolith's base or if it slides into it. It seems to be a regular glass (probably plastic - he he), rod, with black figures inside it!

Bluecornmoon: Thanks for commenting on my destiny book stuff and the dupes stuff. Those are just a couple of the little things that don't add up and are driving me crazy!!!

On to Tess, for a moment, someone mentioned when Tess was holding CW's picture and ask about her at her age. At first, I thought that this was just an offhand remark, a cover so to speak because Ida startled Tess and Tess had to cover up the fact that she was trying to get images while holding the picture, but my next impression was, "How strange, why would she be interested in CW at her age and why did she have that look on her face, like she was looking at a picture of someone that meant a lot to her." She did seem to get some flashes while she was holding the picture but I did not get anything out of them. I will have to rewatch it and see if I can see anything important.

Another thing that I forgot to mention in my last post. Did anyone else get the feeling that Tess's visit to Isabel was perfect timing to keep Isabel and Nickolas from talking anymore. Like she rushed right in there to keep Isabel from finding out something. They she ask Isabel what Nickolas had to say. Like she was fishing for information. To find out just how much information Nickolas had divulged. I always thought that the timing of her entrance was not accidental. As Isabel told her, she barged in before they really got a chance to get the conversation going.

There are just too many times when Tess steps in at the wrong moment or the right moment depending on which side of the fence you are standing on. She seems to keep the group from getting information at times.

Which leads to my next idea....I feel that the momogram was like a prerecorded message. She could not see who was in the room and would have to assume that all 4 were there, since it was activated. I wonder if it would have been activated if Liz had not been there. The four of them paired off and held the orbs, but maybe that was not necessarily what set it off. Maybe the 2 orbs being in the same place and Liz being present was the key.

Okay, I am goin nuts now. Must have food and then some Roswell eps!!!

...

Which leads to my next idea....[re:] momogram
... The four of them paired off and held the orbs, but maybe that was not necessarily what set it off. Maybe the 2 orbs being in the same place and Liz being present was the key.

Okay, I am goin nuts now.megageekgrl, I rewatched that too and thought the same thing (again!), but, once again I am then thrown off by Tess's reaction (somewhere between and ) to Isabel's irritation over the interruption. I have assumed Tess's look meant she had no clue, but now I think if she had no clue she would have apologized for preventing Is from getting info on Nicko. The , OTOH, might indicate that Tess was interrupting for Is's own good--that Nasedo had told Tess all about the Vilondra affair. Or (anyone?) has Tess already indicated that she doesn't know anything about Vilondra? BTW, I think when Tess picks up the picture of Whittaker and gets a flash, she was just trying to get clues (and CW's "mother" interrupted that!).

There has been much past discussion of the presence of Liz being a key ingredient to the activation of the Mommogram. After all, she led them to the Orb. So, megageekgrl, if you came up with this theory independently (versus just bringing it up again for those who hadn't considered it--I wasn't sure which), then that gives greater strength to that theory since it is obvious to yet another viewer. But then, are the writers of the Destiny episode even still with us? Anyone know?

As far as the door, whatever it's made out of, lead or steel, Isabel had no problem changing the molecular structure. Now, I'm not a scientist. I freely admit this fact!! I know very little about science, especially chemistry. I still have to rewatch, but if I think the pictures are different from episode to episode, then I must revise this theory.

I don't always have time to keep up with all the post, so if it was mentioned before I must have missed it. But great minds think alike and if more than one person comes up with the same thing, then it must be important. Right?

Congratulations on the second star!

I agree with you; I've always thought the momogram was prerecorded. I had the impression is was created when the podsters were commissioned to Earth.

Anyone have any theories on how long the granolith has been there in the rock formation? If the granolith was also involved in the projection of the momogram, not just the orbs?

I definitely think the message was activated by the presence of the four. Now, which four is another story! I obviously think Tess was just in the right place at the right time, and that Liz was the bride mom was speaking of.

One thought: assuming the granolith came first and has been there a LONG time, it would be interesting to know all the messages that have been projected in that room. How many times has the momogram been projected and to whom...

I agree with Nemo and Megageekgirl that that book looks like copper metal to me---also references--COPPER SUMMIT----"Every PENNY goes into my research"--Milton Ida says to Tess in Harvest "a PENNY for your thoughts"

I also posted that I thought Tess deliberately came in and interrupted the conversation between Isabel and Nicholas(but what I have thought was at the time---Nicholas seemed sort of like a sweet boy while talking in that bedroom---the Nicholas who was at the funeral waiting for Isabel was SMUG--A Ladies Man-and very much reminded me of Dear Old Mr Ed Harding-the ladykiller he thinks he is--flirting with Liz, diddling the congresswoman etc--so I question whether someone did not shapeshift into Nicholas? I don't know I am not sure I just get the impression that something was very fishy about Tess CRASHING in on that conversation, b4 something she didn't want known to be revealed.

I also NOTED Tess's reaction to being TESTED at the summit and seemed relieved that just Max would be tested not her.

oh I found a few other BB's Beer Blast and Bleecher Bums to add to a growing list.

And how many times has Max been referred to as a dog, Deputy Dog here, you lucky undeserving dog, Moondoggie I am sure there are more instances than this but just to name a few.

So do we have dogs vs coyotes and what about the skins--which are they? Or are the skins the third type?

There are many isotopes of uranium. Each has its own characteristic (radioactive) decay pattern. When a nucleus of U239 decays, it spits out an electron ("beta ray") to become element 93: Neptunium239; as what's left of one neutron becomes a proton. The same thing happens again, and the nucleus becomes Plutonium239. The U239 and Neptunium239 are very short-lived; but Plutonium239 is relatively stable. It can also be used as a nuclear fuel.

Wouldn't it be neat if we could use all this U238, instead of working for the U235 mixed with it? Well, we can. If you hit a U238 nucleus with a neutron, it sticks; and the U238 becomes U239. This rapidly decays into Plutonium 239, which is usable. This is what a "breeder reactor" does: one part of it is fissioning plutonium atoms; the excess neutrons made are used to turn U238 into more fissionable plutonium.

OK, so what's all this to do with anything?
There is this level of detail behind lots of the throw-away lines used in Roswell. Just the comment about the "genetic material" used for the podsters invokes the body of medical knowlege related to DNA, genes, cloning, etc. Good science fiction makes sense, even when you look this hard at it. Liz is said to be "changed", but it can only be a metaphysical change, not a physical one. Her genes were not changed, but her mind or "essence" may well have been. I believe that the experience taught her, somehow, to access the Talents that "Harding" said all humans have.

Also, I think it's clear that the same genes were used to make both the NM4 and the NY4. This explains both their physical resemblence and the two sets of pods. The difference is in their minds, their "essences". When we figure out how the differences came to be, we will understand a lot more about who these 12 aliens are, and how this situation came to be. And, perhaps, it will illuminate Liz and her connection to Max as well.

Isn't it just a little suspicious how Liz's parents are always going away for the week out of town or They're at a stargazing camp-out.
What if Nancey and Jeff parker are apart of long alien conspiracy starting with GC and past down from generation to generation. what Iam saying is what if J and N know that Liz is an alien and there just sorta like her protectors until she know about where she really comes from.

From "edge of the earth"- There could be several different types of aliens. All having different abilities ie the skins have mind warp and are generally weaker than the pod squad.

I have just a few quick comments:

RE: The Destiny Book - I would guess that if it is from Twilo then it wouldnt be made out of something beyond Twilonian manipulation. It could be - but I tend to think that the Twilo book is being MISINTERPRETED by the kids. Tess showed them the pictures and lead them to assume they meant one thing - when in fact - they could mean something else.
For example (and I dont think this is what it means - its just an example) - the pictures COULD be of Tess, Max, Courtney and Nicolas - and the writing could say "HEY Max - WATCH OUT for these three bad guys".
My feeling is that it has to do with prophecy. Tess's face not being shaded could mean - as Nemo has speculated - that she is not what she appears to be.

Re: The Courtney/CW/Tess connection. Yes - I think there was one. I am not sure how much of the early episodes of Season II is misleading because the writers were trying to end the story in 9 episodes if they had to.
But GraceKel - the backwards C symbol that Courtney and Tess wore - it is similar to the Wicca symbol for "Goddess" - and in EOTW Courtney tells Michael she wants a GREEK GODDESS salad.

Re: The Bride references - I agree that they are purposefully ambiguous. Liz is always present when someone mentions the bride.

Heres a little strawberry symbolism for you :-) - this was probably mentioned before -
strawberries represent with a young girl who is ready for marraige and motherhood.

Another thought about EOTW and the card reading - I think that the card reading for Liz INCLUDED the Future Max stuff. The fortune teller acts kind of taken aback by the cards - she says "I have never seen the cards fall like this before". THEN she says "he chooses you - he chooses love" as if THAT part of the future is very simple and clear.
What was it that made Liz's reading puzzling and unusual then??? After rewatching - I really think that we can interpret the reading as being accurate and inclusive of the events with FMax.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Tess: One who Harvests

Hmmmmmm.............Maybe she is connected to the skins somehow and just doesn't know it. I didn't like the way she was looking at CWW's picture either, thought it was really strange for someone who'd been supposedly tramatized by her. I wonder if the whole "kidnapping" ordeal was a set up on both Tess and CWW's parts?

Zero- I also believe that Zan knew that he wasn't king and wouldn't pass the test: therefore he refused to attend the summit, thinking not going would prevent him from getting exposed and possibly getting himself killed by the emissary. To bad he was in a Catch 22 situation. He ended up dead anyway

Liz HAS to be human or else I don't think Eva would have used the word "change". But I don't think Tess is the true bride either. I hope we get some answers soon! Is it MONDAY YET????

...so I question whether someone did not shapeshift into Nicholas? ...The link is in reading the script: quote:
DIANE: Now that...that is a miracle.

PHILIP: That might be overstating it a little. They did say they were all undergoing experimental treatment.

DIANE: Philip, put your finger here...

...And the part about the imprint of the hand on each of the children. I mean, if that isn't enough to get you to believe in God, then I don't know what is. Can you put your finger there? And, I mean, maybe it's even enough to, uh...get Max to join us at midnight services tonight. What do you say, Max?Well, for one thing, we now know that both Max & Mr. Evans have issues with believing in miracles. But, GraceKel, I thought it was interesting that the writers had Diane ask Phillip to "put your finger there" twice, and in between the two requests she talks about the silver handprint.

Also, I will not be surprised if Nickolas turns out to be a shapeshifter.

I hadn't considered that! Finally a theory that explains Nicholas' presense still. So, there are appartantly three technologies for the Twilonese when coming to Earth for them to use. They have to be biologically modified, (podstered, linked to a husk, or metamorphize into a shapeshifter). What if the shapeshifter is the end result of Twilonese growth. You start off as a BEM and then develop a cocoon and transform into a shapeshifter?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

While all cut scenes have to be taken with a truckload of salt, there was a cut scene at the end of EOTW where Liz went back to Madame Vivian's and she did another reading. She said something to the effect of, "I can't understand it! Your future was so clear earlier. Now, everything hangs in the balance."

This would imply that FMax coming back was NOT part of the original reading.

I've bolded the one phrase b/c I know that part is word-for-word; and so we have the idea of balance again. Re: my earler post about the compass rose design of the granolith chamber (thanks, bluecornmoon for letting me know that gels with the orbs in Destiny--I haven't seen it yet ). In order to achieve a proper working inside this design, the mages (yes, I know, behr with me again! ) need to be in balance as well. Often they are in male/female pairs. What I propose is that our group needs to be not only in male/female balance, but in human/alien balance. With Tess & Kyle getting together, we have 4 H/A, M/F pairings. Complete and total balance would be achievable this way (obviously I'm agreeing with Qfanny that Liz is not an alien ). Maybe it was b/c I only just saw most of S!--and all together in one weekend, at that!--but balance seems to crop up over and over again. The ghost tells Max to restore the balance, too. I also think that Liz saving Max's life in MITC balanced out him healing her in the Pilot. It all seems to lead to the idea of balance, which I firmly believe means a united Max and Liz.

shapeshifter That's a great idea, but I don't think I have the VCR manual anymore--it's not with the others Sigh, I'll just have to watch it in normal speed and keep rewinding!! BTW, yes--EOTW was the first ep I taped to keep, so naturally Harvest is right after it

bluecornmoon I've just finished part 5 and am about to post it at the roswell fanatics fan fiction board. I'll e-mail it to you again, of course

Right - I am spolied rotten and I knew about this scene when I watched EOTW and it really colored my interpretation of the scene that was actually aired.
What I am saying is - rewatching it with some distance - I believe that the filmed and aired version of EOTW implies the inclusion the Future Max stuff in the fortune reading.
In fact - I think that is why the end scene was cut. The "He chooses love, he chooses you" stuff would not make sense otherwise. Because at the time of EOTW Max had already CHOOSEN Liz - that wouldnt be in a future reading. He was wanting her and pursuing her - he never stopped - it was Liz that walked out in Destiny.
In order for Max to CHOOSE Liz in the future - it would be implying that he had a choice to make. Before Future Max came - present Max had already made his choice - and it was Liz - he had even decided he wanted sex and intimacy "Max the saint with a condom in his back pocket" - again - no fortune telling was necessary. But NOW we have a present Max who does have a choice to make. And I believe he will choose love and choose Liz.
Actually - now that I think about it - IF the fortune reading was supposed to be PRE-FMax and not include any of his intervention - then why wouldnt the fortune teller say "and then after he chooses you all hell breaks loose and everyone dies and then the world ends". I mean- she made it sound like Liz had a GOOD future. Another reason why I think the reading in the filmed and aired version of EOTW was meant to be inclusive. The reading was unusual and unlike anything the fortune teller had seen before because it contained the time travel and changes caused by FMAX - but it was clear that in the end that Liz would be the choosen one.

Does that make sense at all?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I think I missed this part of the conversation. Have we really brought Roswell into a cult status? Anyway, while I was looking at screencaps from pilot, I noticed this one. If I'm not mistaken, I think that's a butterfly next to Max in pilot. Interesting all the butterflys we have in the episode where Liz was supposively changed.

screencap courtesy of crashdown.com

Maybe I just need to put on my glasses. Does that look butterfly-ish to you?

screencaps courtesy of crashdown.com

Is this Liz's and Max's hand?

Yikes! This one of Liz's threads and I've gone off the topic. Well, maybe I can wrap this up with a more relevant question/observation. If Liz is the leader's counterpart/soulmate, why wouldn't the NY Four protector or whoever planned the "pod mission" make sure that Zan ( and Lonnie, Rath, and Ava for that matter) could step in and be compatible with Liz if anything happened to Max (and Isabel, Michael, and Tess). I honestly couldn't imagine Liz and Zan bonding unless Zan changed. Okay, I'm done rambling!

Yikes! This one of Liz's threads and I've gone off the topic. Well, maybe I can wrap this up with a more relevant question/observation. If Liz is the leader's counterpart/soulmate, why wouldn't the NY Four protector or whoever planned the "pod mission" make sure that Zan ( and Lonnie, Rath, and Ava for that matter) could step in and be compatible with Liz if anything happened to Max (and Isabel, Michael, and Tess). I honestly couldn't imagine Liz and Zan bonding unless Zan changed. Okay, I'm done rambling!

Okay, let me try this...Let's consider for a moment that the dupes are not necessarily defective, however that word was used by the NY4 and Nickolas. They could have been created and sent by someone other that Mom. They are dupes because they were intended to be used to deceive the home planet. Now for the plan...The skins or whoever, find and kill the NM4 and replace them with the NY4. They return to Twilo, but instead of regaining power and making the world a better place, they are used as token rulers with the real power lying behind the throne in the hands of Ki'var or another faction.

As far as the protector of the NY4 go, they did say that they had a protector, but did not say what happened to him/her.

Now for the Liz/Max question...The question would be assuming that Liz being Max's soulmate was planned. In human kind you can not plan who your soulmate will be, it just happens. If you find each other it is wonderful. Some people search their whole lives for their soulmate and never find them. Now for the sake of argument, lets say that Liz being Max's soulmate was planned. Twilo knew that Max needed his soulmate to be an effective ruler. His soulmate is not on Twilo, she is on earth. Zan was looking for his soulmate, Ava says that Zan seemed to be waiting for someone, but he never had the chance to find her and maybe never would have. Let's go even further and say that because Liz is Max's soulmate, we know that he is the true King. Zan could only be a dupe because he did not have a soulmate.

So this makes Liz the key to everything. The dupes are only dupes because Zan did not have a soulmate. Max is the once and future King because he does....Liz!!!! And there we have Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology!!!!hehehe

I've emailed Zero about this and made a post about it (It was closed and I was directed here.)

I am putting together a timeline for the Roswell episodes for a project I'm working on. I am having problems with the times between the episodes "The End of the World" and "Harvest." Here is the timeline as posted by Zero on this thread's opening:

"10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)"

Now here is what I have. Keep in mind that every day or date reference I have comes from an episode's dialogue and silverhandprint.com (Katim's has said the information there is official.)

According to the dialogue from "EoTW", the show ended on Friday night. I know this because in the middle of the episode, Max asked Liz to go to the Gomez concert on Friday. This is the exact line this comes from:

"MAX: Go out with me on Friday. There's a Gomez concert in Santa Fe. I have tickets.

LIZ: No. No, Max. I can't go out with you ever again. Please stop doing this."

The next scene is in Liz's room. The Future Max says this line:
"FUTURE MAX: No. The night of Gomez I came to your room. That's the night that things between us were cemented."

Sure enough, the present-time Max comes to Liz's window with concert tickets and sees Liz and Kyle together. The show ends shortly after this incident. I've no doubt that EoTW ends on a Friday night.

With me so far? The next episode "Harvest" opens with Liz at school telling Maria she didn't sleep well "last night." This can be interpreted two ways: One, last night refers to Friday night where EoTW ended. But if that is true, that has "Harvest" starting on Saturday. Since most folks don't go to school on Saturday, I'm not sure that "Harvest" starts on Saturday. Another scene later, Micheal is picking on Max and Tess tells him to leave him alone because "He's had a rough night." Again, this could suggest that it is Saturday but once again, their at school. No one goes to school on Saturday so it's not likely it's Saturday.

The other option is a little more likely. It's possible that "Harvest" begins the following Monday leaving Saturday and Sunday open. However, the next few events bring up an inconsistancy.

After contacting the Universal Friendship League, Max decides to drive to Arizona to investigate. "Harvest" covers a period of at least two days, perhaps no more then four at the most. The inconsistancy is that during the events of the episode, if "Harvest" starts on Monday, no one is attending school. Surely the administration is going to become concerned. Now I don't know if the show takes this into account but it makes me wonder if they waited until the next Friday to drive to Arizona to avoid suspicion on being gone so long. And because the episode never gives a day of the week (or any other indication of a date or time for that matter) I'm not sure how to surmise the amount of time that has passed between the episodes. Nor have I found anything official that says either.

So any ideas on this? My instincts tell me only two days passed between episodes (Saturday and Sunday). But there could have been days or even weeks here between the episodes.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

ChadEvans - The dates from those episodes DON"T make sense, so don't stress yourself trying to figure it out. Just as the date that the communicators went off doesn't make sense in context of the first season - we have come to realize that no one is minding the store when it comes to continuity of dates. We have had extensive discussions about this - and rants - to no avail. The dates I post are the best I've been able to figure out from watching the episodes numerous times, reading the silverhandprint site and discussions with the extremely bright folks who post here.

BTW - Can hardly wait to see if anything new comes out of Monday night!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

First . . . you guys are so amazingly smart. Liz would be proud !

Here's my idea. I'm not sure if this has been brought up but we are studying genes and *hybrids* (funny thing is I found out we were studying this the day after I saw the promo - fate? Yeppers) in school and this popped into my head as I was taking notes.

In hybirds there are contrasting genes . . . meaning (for example) an alien gene and a human gene. Let's pretend, for a moment that Liz's grandmother is or had a realationship with an alien. She could have passed on a human gene, and an alien gene. Now there are ressesive and dominant traits, meaning one trait will show up and hide the other.

Now what if the human trait was dominant (therefore Liz's mother and herself would be human, since the alien gene is ressesive). In the podsters case their DNA was altered so the alien trait is more dominate (don't ask me how or if this is possible, they're aliens . . . more advanced . . . they'd find a way ). What if, when Max healed Liz he altered her genes also, making her alien gene dominate, therefore she recieves the powers, but not as much so since she was at one point human.

Or (yes theres more )

Genes of hybirds can skip generations, since one gene is dominate. Liz's parent (i don't know which side grandma claudia was on) could give her the alien gene. Now she'd need another alien gene to make her a pure-bred alien. So we can basically throw this theory out because only one parent could possibly have an alien gene to give. She'd need one from the other parent also. I just thought I'd type this to see if anyone had an idea of how this could be possible.

- Sorry if this has already been discussed. Ignore it if it has, or you don't understand anything I just typed!

Night everyone!

<3 Rachel

I thought that at first as well, but then after re-watching the episode, I realized that Tess was probably just trying to get information about CW from Ida. After all, isn't that why they were there? The thing that clinched it for me was after the scene with Tess & Ida...Tess walks in on Iz and asks her if she found out anything from Nick. After Iz informs her that no, she didn't find anything out because she crashed in on them, Tess excitedly tells Iz what she learned from Ida. Most importantly, that CW was adopted. At that point, we the audience - and the characters, did not know that the whole town was in reality...skins. I believe that TPTB felt this was an important little plot twist in developing the suspense, knowing that later they would reveal the whole town was a bunch of peeling, evil skins. The whole bizarre look on Tess's face during that scene...well, I chalked that up to some weird nuance on the part of Emilie's acting. I think Emilie conveyed something else entirely in that scene than the writers had intended.

I'm not sure what TPTB were trying to get across from Tess having flashes when she held CW's picture. At the time I remember thinking that Tess heard everything that CW said to Iz about Vilandra...but they never ended up developing anything with that. Maybe they were trying to make Tess seem vulnerable by having her remember her terrible ordeal? I dunno...but I'm sure this is just another loose end and sloppy writing that will probably never be explained and revisited.

But hey...that's just my take on things!!

{~}:}

BTW - Can hardly wait to see if anything new comes out of Monday night!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I had come to the conclusion that the dates don't make sense at times but for the accuracy of my project to work, a little stress must be summoned.

According to Black Widow, who did me a grand favor with this, no one in the production staff can explain the date descripancy either. While this sort of thing happens in episodic television at times, apparently no one thought the fans would notice things like this (Perhaps I should pass on to them Phil Farrand's website, www.nitcentral.com ,home of the Nitpicker's Guild for Star Trek. We nitpickers can be dangerous you know.

Well, since no one can explain this without me giving Mr. Katims a call (yeaaah, riiiiight), I'll just have to guess on the dates and hope I am correct with what I come up with. Thanks for the input Zero. Every little bit helps.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

There was another HUGE butterfly over the mirror in Liz's room in the pilot. I don't have a screencap...but if you watch the episode you CAN'T miss it. Doesn't she also have butterfly pajamas and butterfly curtains?

{~}:}

SO that being said, I don't mind if she turns out to be an alien, better hidden then the rest or just simply dormant until Max awakens her dormant genes.

But I have always questioned and been suspicious of Liz' mother, Nancy. As well as wondered about Grandma Claudia and how she knew about Max, before she even met him. It doesn't seem too much of a reach for me that Nancy knows something about Liz and her role in this whole scenario. She never seemed to really have a close relationship with Liz, not that either of her parents really do, but from what I remember of the scenes betweent them. There was this underlying competition between them. But I don't know what for.

And Nancy never seemed to have a full range of emotions. But if that is from the acting or if that was a very sublte hint that she isn't human, I don't know. Cause Harding never really had a full range of emotions either, but we still haven't figured out if he's good or bad. I'm just talking myself in circles now. I'm gonna stop. Anyone else wanna try this line of thought?

Oh, and Grandma Claudia was Jeff's mother.

<3 Rachel

First of all, please forgive me if this has been posted before. I have all episodes on tape, and on Friday I watched Missing and Blind Date.
Here are my observations:

1) I noticed that when Liz and Max where at Kyle's house searching for the journal, they we're not alone: I saw a shadow watching them. Then when Kyle arrived and they left the house, again I saw that same shadown, it was from a man. He was ouside hidden in the bushes, you can see his face. Does anyone have a screencap of that one? I don't know who that man was...

2) Blind date: The man that burned a picture of I/Mi/M, reminded me of the man I saw in Missing. (could they be the same guy?)

Oraliax1

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Okay - now I have a theory/speculation :-)

Re: Tess :-)
Assuming the "wedding day massacre" scenario.
Also - assuming the "Romeo and Juilet" scenario. Basically - that Zan married "Liz" in secret (a la Romeo and Juilet) and then was being forced to marry Tess/Ava for political reasons. They were all killed on the wedding day (or possibly "orchestrated" their deaths and planned to send their essences to earth w/the graolith).

Now - who was Tess? We have speculated that she could have been related to Khivar. What if she was his DAUGHTER.
Khivar could assume that she would be his puppet. She could have been aware or unaware that he was planning to use her to overthrow Zan.
This would explain why Nicolas/CW/Lonnie would not have killed Tess. It also could explain why she had a "protector" that was of dubious help to the rest of the podsters (also lends to his comment to Liz that Max and Tess were MADE to be together ("made" could mean "arranged"). Harding and Tess could have been under the mistaken illusion that a Tess/Max union would have united Twilo.
It also explains why Tess's "powers" are different and more similar to Nikolas. So - does Tess KNOW who she is? Maybe not. If Vanessa Whittaker was Nikolas's sister on Twilo - then she and Tess would have likely had a relationship in their past - which would explain her recognition/weird look at the photo. CW could have been like a big sister to her. Can she CHOOSE differently? I think she can.
If she ends up with Kyle - Khivar will likely stop protecting her.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I had been thinking that Khivar had to have some sort of connection to the throne to be as successful with his overthrow as we was.

If this was the case, obviously Tess and the rest of the podsters could not have known that Tess was Khivar's pawn. If they knew, I doubt she would have been sent to earth. So, even though Tess seems to have secrets, my guess is that she probably does not know them either.

Pilot - at the crashdown festival. She's looking up at Jonathon Frakes from the base of the stage as he's counting down the crash

"6, 5, 4..."

Sorry if it's old news, but I'd never noticed her there until today!

What a great compliment Babie Rachie! Thanks from all of us!

{~}:}

Yes, I know that! Which is way I wanted to know if the wall art next to Max looks butterfly-ish! I take it you thuoght so!

Here's the screencaps again!

courtesy of crashdown.com

There is a butterfly on the mirror here, you cannot see it with the screencap, but if you go back and rewatch, it is clearly there!

Windmill:

Through the movement of the windmill's sails, the symbolisim of wind(intangible vitality) combines with that of air(the spirit). But because of it's functions as a corn mill, the windmill can also signify harvest and in turn fertility. The wind ultimately produces bread, so the windmill can signify life.

I'd really like to know exactly how many items or props are linked to fertility that are also linked to Max and Liz. And how many are linked to Tess. To compare the numbers, I have a feeling there will be more liked to our favorite couple.

Compass:

It is contained within the circle of perfection and quartered by the four point of north, south, east and west. It is a sign of both life and knowledge.

Gotta go now. Be back later. Don't miss me too much now!

I'm not sure what TPTB were trying to get across from Tess having flashes when she held CW's picture. At the time I remember thinking that Tess heard everything that CW said to Iz about Vilandra...but they never ended up developing anything with that. Maybe they were trying to make Tess seem vulnerable by having her remember her terrible ordeal? I dunno...but I'm sure this is just another loose end and sloppy writing that will probably never be explained and revisited.

But hey...that's just my take on things!!

{~}:}

I was thinking the same thing. In Ask Not Tess tells Max that she knows some memory retreival techniques, and I thought that's what she was doing with CW's picture. Kind of like the old thing about needing a picture or physical object--like some hair--of a person's in order to curse them! Maybe Tess remembered bits and pieces of her ordeal and knew that something im,portant had been said, but not what. I was didappointed that this didn't go anywhere, actually

I also agree that the peculiar look on Tess's face when she found Isabel was just Emilie, or possibly b/c Isabel was being strange all day so Tess was finding her behaviour weird (I was).

I forget who asked about the EOTW-Harvest timeline, but I wanted to propose something. Yes, the concert was supposed to be Friday night, but isn't it possible that Max came to her window on Thursday to try to convince her again? Then, the next day was Friday at school, and Friday night is when they went to Copper Summit. Or, with the idea of them leaving on Monday night--parents tend to give some latitude when there's been a death. I don't think it would have been that difficult for them to get parental permission to drive to Arizona for the funeral. Just a thought
~Tas

Me, too!

quote:
Compass:

It is contained within the circle of perfection and quartered by the four point of north, south, east and west. It is a sign of both life and knowledge.

This ties in quite nicely with my theory about the granolith chamber functioning as a power-gatherer for the granolith b/c of it's compass rose design. Also with the idea of balancing the male/female, human/alien aspects, one couple to each compass point. Thanks, CharmedKitten!

Qfanny Sorry to mislead you--by "gone over to the dark side" I meant that I've become spoiled The conversation you missed was on that board

Wow, I really, really like this idea! It makes so much sense in so many ways! I think you should run this idea over to Reggie's thread, The Politics of Roswell . The only thing I do not like about it is that Tess's sister-in-law (Isabel) would as be her step mom!

[/B]

Thanks QFanny - I am going to copy it to the Politic thread at your request.
As for Iasbel as Tess's sis-in-law - I actually came up with the idea when I was playing around with Shakespearean scenarios!
The idea that "mom" was actually involved with Khivar (a la Hamlet) and SHE therefore pushed the Tess/Zan union (and hence sent the pods with Tess along). I dont really think there is any evidence to that part of the speculation - BUT - thats kind of how I got thinking along those lines.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

StarBox - Just be sure to add something to the current discussion over there. (I'm sure you will.)

Everyone, I recently read the Roswell 1 posting guidelines started by Moonfire. I found it very interesting. I suggest that you read it too...

Here's the link:
http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/003982.html

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Eh, I don't know Starbox. I've not seen any Roswell episodes yet (they are on order) but I'm told by those that have seen "Harvest", the school was filled. If it was a Saturday, then the teens of Roswell are extremely dedicated to their education. Somehow, I just don't think that's the case.

My theory is there is at least a weekend in there. It's possible that there is an entire week in between "EoTW" and "Harvest" but that's probably stretching it just a bit. Hm. I'm still working on it.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

More to the point, Isabel was on the verge of spilling the beans to Nikolas, who was definitely fishing!. Talking about events on Twilo? NOT a good thing. I'm glad Tess interrupted that.

To newbies: the theory of Liz as "the fifth element" has been discussed at different times. Well, I just stumbled on this definition of "quintessence" in Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary: quote:...lit[erally], fifth essence (15 c[entury]) 1 : the fifth and highest element in ancient and medieval philosophy that permeates all nature and is the substance composing the celestial bodies 2 : the essence of a thing in its purest and most concentrated form 3 : the most typical example or representativedefinition 1 is awesome as it points to our Liz being the element that unites the planets (my loose interpretation ), and 3 reminds me of Liz, "the smallest of small town girls."

I will copy most of this to the Signs & Symbols thread, but first I will dutifully click on a few ads.

Thanks, Mavonne, let me know if I can help you need any help making a new avitar.

I do know Roswell has been a feature article in Cult Magazine. I also think we would be classified as a cult. X-files and Buffy followers folllowers were also considered a cult.

quote: Anyway, while I was looking at screencaps from pilot, I noticed this one. If I'm not mistaken, I think that's a butterfly next to Max in pilot. Interesting all the butterflys we have in the episode where Liz was supposively changed.

screencap courtesy of crashdown.com

Maybe I just need to put on my glasses. Does that look butterfly-ish to you?

If you're talking about what's on the wall, it's a CACTUS. I noticed that in a couple of scenes Max and cactuses frequently appear like the trees show up with Liz.

Maybe she just knows something about the history of the Parker family in Roswell or Liz's heritage that could put her daughter in jeopardy?

The Parkers have to have some other alien connection considering their history in Roswell. They've been running a major establishment in town for years. It has to be a thoroughfare for all sorts. Of aliens that is.

Here's the screencaps again!

courtesy of crashdown.com

There is a butterfly on the mirror here, you cannot see it with the screencap, but if you go back and rewatch, it is clearly there!

Hey QFanny...a couple of things. No, I do not think the picture next to Max looks like a butterfly. Maybe a cactus? If it was anything butterfly related (which I don't think it is) I would have to say the pic looks more like a caterpillar (which I don't really think it does.)

From the pilot, the butterfly I'm talking about is ABOVE Liz's mirror...and it's fairly huge. Are you talking about the same one? I only noticed it for the first time the other night.

I've been thinking about Liz's 1st journal entry vs. the butterfly imagery. It's really quite beautiful, if you think about it. In the journal she says (something to the effect of) "5 days ago I died, but the amazing thing is, then I came to life". It's like she was this caterpillar in the cocoon of small town life...developing, but not really blossoming. When Max saved her he turned her into this butterfly...this beautiful creature with many different colorful facets (powers?). He gave her wings to fly away and become the person she is supposed to become. The butterfly imagery is just really beautiful.

On the middle row on the right hand side..the fourth symbol in from the left..it kind of looks like a butterfly. Hmmmmmm....

{~}:}

On the middle row on the right hand side..the fourth symbol in from the left..it kind of looks like a butterfly. Hmmmmmm....

{~}:}[/B]The butterfly in this context, though, probably refers to the 4 pods. And I think the symbol on the end of the row is the granolith.
And wasn't the next to the last symbol in the next row associated with "ZIL" (Liz backwards) in the book?

I have a few ideas of my own too.

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
Does Liz have an alien essense, but her body not genetically engineered? She seems to have no memories of a former life. Was Liz a creation of several generations of planning by the Twilonese, perhaps going back to proto Max's father? Liz seems to be an old soul. Not fascinated with her surroundings, but exerting a power over them.

This fits in really well with Buddist beliefs of reincarnation. Buddists believe in other worlds besides earth and a soul from one world could technically be reincarnated on earth. This would make it possible for Liz to be human and still be Max's soulmate from their past lives on Twilo.

Starbox: I love your theory on Tess being Khivar's daughter! Just another example of the brilliant things you guys think up on this thread...

I'm excited to see all the great new stuff you're all sure to discover on tomorrow nights episode.

Look at the second music-room scene in the Pilot. (Liz, searching for her book bag; then Alex, concerned about Liz.) Before Liz pops up, the room looks empty -- we see only chairs and music stands. One stand, a little more than the others, seems to draw our attention (Qfanny, would you say this looks intentional?) -- it's near the center of the frame and has maybe a little extra light on it. This stand is subtly different from the others.

Look at the support structure on the back of the stand, where the post ties in. The other stand backs have a single, centered rib, something like an I; but this one instead has two sides linked by a crossbar, like an H. (In various concert halls I have seen a few of the H kind -- though the I's are far more common -- but invariably the H bracket is shorter, whereas here the H looks as tall as the I's. Moreover, the fastener heads, normally "orchestra black" like the rest of the surface, are shiny in this case. In square array, they look like an early hint of the "Foursquare" symbol. That stand, though seemingly familiar in general form, is different in detail from any I've seen -- I wonder if it was custom made.) There's only one stand in the room like this, and it's right next to Liz.

Maybe I'm overinterpreting, like the astronomer who thought he saw canals on Mars. (It's fun to speculate, especially in rerun season.) I'm still wondering whether this stand is another small clue hidden in plain sight. Is there something twofold about Liz's nature? (And both sides "full height", neither one diminished by the presence of the other? She did describe Grandma repeatedly as especially "full of life," and Grandma seemed to be passing some role of hers on to Liz....) Or is it maybe that Liz will be a diplomat, bringing two sides together that no one else could reconcile? (Illustrated perhaps by her negotiating a compromise between Alex and Maria over the songs for the band in Blind Date.) Any time now, we may learn more....

Nemo - as always - your insight is amazing - and I do believe that the set design and decoration is VERY intentional. I have some more comments on your idea of Liz as mediator - but I will have to post them when I have more time.

One last FYI - Brendan Fehr posted on his board last night. The thread is called "Some Answers" and its under his name (Spiderman)
It is not spolier-ish - just mostly chit chat for his fans but it is kind neat to read.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Bet you can't wait 'till tonight's episode! I know I can't only 10 hours to go!

Roxy

That's all I wanted to say. Sorry it is so insignificant....Back to lurkdom

I was re-watching "Surprise" and remember the part when Courtney walks in on the group talking about Tess being missing, and Courtney's comment was something like, "Believe me, nobody wants Tess, trust me I know" or something to that effect, and then she started talking about the girl's eyeshadow.

Now, even though Courtney was a short-lived character, she knew a lot. Could she had known something about Tess?

Till Later!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

That's all I wanted to say. Sorry it is so insignificant....Back to lurkdom

Max himself admitted to not being able to sleep since he saw Liz and Kyle together. Yes. Bad weekend indeed.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

Till Later!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

The idea that the time between "EoTW" and "Harvest" is just the weekend seems to be the most plausible one. For it to be any longer then that causes too many time problems. However, it means that the group all skipped school during this time (with the exception of Micheal and Maria who remained behind in Roswell a day longer then the rest.) It is a bit unrealistic that the gang can miss school like they do and get away with it but sometimes you have to suspend belief for the sake of story. However, the creators need to be a little more careful with things like this. All they need to do is ask Jonathon Frakes about the keen powers of observations of those in the Nitpicker's Guild. He knows all about it. When filming Star Trek: First Contact, Frakes reshot a scene where Lily's phaser was not set to kill but rather set to stun (according to the light readout on top of the phaser.) The actress balked at the re-shoot asking who would possibly notice such a thing. Frakes simply replied "There are people out there."

As for the project I'm working on, that's still going to have to be my secret for the moment. However, when the time comes, all of Crashdown.com will be the first to know.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

It just blew me away!!!!

are Isabel and Brody's hands. If you have the promo on video, look at the clothes they are wearing (Brody's sweater) and plus, if Isabel was out digging in the dirt like the promo showed her (the second promo which was played during Charmed last Thursday showed Isabel digging and Max holding up the green jello shield) then she would have dirt under her nails! Just a thought.
Returning to lurkdom

edited cause I can't post pics worth a diddly
Why is it not posting?? Gah!!

In this pic below, did anyone else notice that not only do Max and Liz form a "V" with their hands, but the shadow against the wall of their bodies forms a "V" too?

I don't know if the shadow was what you guys were talking about when you said they formed a "V" but either way, they form 2 "V"s. (Their arms and the shadow they make.

I will take a look once my migrane quits. But I think that you're right about this. There is something odd going on with the stands.

I don't know if the shadow was what you guys were talking about when you said they formed a "V" but either way, they form 2 "V"s. (Their arms and the shadow they make.

Did you also notice the DNA double helix at the bottom of the "v" formation on the shadow? Pretty cool huh? Love this thread!

So many wonderful ideas flying around it is just wonderful. Hard to keep up but trying my best.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

CE - Well - of course, I'm curious - I am part of the RBI after all - but can wait. If you have any other questions, PM me. The e-mail I have connected to this is a shared work one that I rarely check - except when they yell at me about the "Roswell" messages!

Chat with you later!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

This guy Dan...I'm thinking either he is an alien...or FBI special unit.

Did anyone else notice his comment about the chips at Senor Chows? Sweet and Spicy chips...and he made a comment about them? Hmmmm....either he's an alien, or an FBI agent who knows about that special culinary quirk of our aliens.

The whole scene with Tess/Kyle about the pancakes, I think, was not only to set up the whole 'Kyle is feeling weird about being changed'...but also to remind the viewers about the sweet/spicy thing. The timing of these two things I don't think were coincidental.

That was the thing that really stuck in my head, and although it doesn't have anything to do with Liz (yet) I thought I would put that out there.

There were so many weird things in this episode. Who was the shooter? Did that guy Dan see Max with his powers? When did Brian Krakow grow up?

Anyway, can't wait to hear what you all think...

{~}:}

Anyway, can't wait to hear what you all think...

{~}:}

I am really too jazzed over this episode right now to post anything very thoughtful. I have to say that I haven't been this excited over a Roswell episode since Crazy. What a wonderful episode to dissect! I do have to say, when Sargent Dan or whatever his name was said, "I'm going to get to the bottom of this!" I responded, "Yes, yes, yes!" This is the Roswell I knew to love. And now it's even more complicated.

Ok, another thought come over me. I think Jim called the cards on Dan correctly. His investigation into the Hubble case is a cover. It sounded to me, and looked like to me, that he was there to observe the Evans. Why would someone be so interested in whether or not the Sheriff was taking statements from a minor. Minors are able to make statements after all. He subtly pried into this as SENIOR CHOWS. This is the same place Topolosky basically gave the load down to Liz. And yes, MetaphysicsGirl, I think that hot and spicy chips was an indication to an alien.

I want to know if people thought Dan say everything in Frazier Woods. I think he did. He come out at a darn convinent time didnt' he!

And I am happy Richie from Highlander is on the show, as Sean.

I think the altered alien thing with Liz and Kyle is to show the extremes of reactions from the fans. Liz is taking very oh-hum. Meanwhile, Kyle is freaked out and wants answers. (Love the remote control thing. )

Off to post some more!

As for Mythology stuff - the one thing I noticed off the bat was the Valenti's chalkboard with a diagram of a cross disecting four quadrants - except that the top left hand quadrant was divided in half. Nemo - this seems to fit with the images you collect. :-)

Also - Liz's reaction to Seth was just a wee bit spooky - looked like she was being brainwashed (or mindwarped). I am going to go ahead and speculate that he aint what he appears to be.
Perhaps word that Liz is the choosen one has gotten out and the EA have finally figured out they need to target HER.

Also - in the "previously on Roswell" stuff - I thought it was REALLY interesting that they showed Liz asking Kyle if he had "visions" when he was healed - and him saying no. I dont think Kyle is going to be changed. I have always thought that Liz flashed during the healing (and it just wasnt shown) - BEFORE the reverse connection. Again - she is changed because she is the choosen one/fifth element.

One last thing - a tidbit for those of you who are not spoiled. We actually had the full script for TSAP last week - and I dont know that you could pick up on this or not just vieweing the episode - but in the Liz dream sequence - when Max said "you want someone that can do this" - what he did was make rose petals fall from the ceiling.
I thought that whole scene was VERY sexual - Could the falling rose petals speak of Liz's subconcious desire to have Max "de-flower" her.....

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

You and I are very much so on the same wavelength tonight StarBox (btw, Hey Liz Mythologists, sorry I haven't been around again ::hangs head in shame::... I once again need to catch up on the discussing).

I also thought the "attraction" Liz seemed to have for Sean was *very* spooky... almost as you said Star, as if she was being mindwarped or something. It might be early to go suspecting ex-juvi hall inmate Sean here... but he *just* gets released from juvi and suddenly shows up in Roswell, meanwhile, this poor blond girl has gotten kidnapped and buried alive... by Grant. I'm getting the same vibe from Sean that I used to get from Grant... hey, if my instinct was right at least once...not saying y'all have to put any credence to my insane "intuition" though .

My speculation at the moment... well now that we know post-MITC about this "emissary" thing.... Could Sean be Khivar? If Sean is Khivar... and Liz "senses" something about him or he's doing something to her... what does that mean for our Lizzie? It did seem Sean (possibly Khivar?) is interested in Liz. If he is Khivar, I think Liz is in trouble. Nikolas mindraped Max and saw Liz... so presumedly Nikolas would know how important Liz was/is to Max. This info gets back to Khivar.... voila.... Liz is a target. Although I really hope I'm not right. Or was there ALWAYS something about Liz... Nikolas might not know it (or he could) but Khivar *does know* who Liz might be? He knows the "King" has found her... but he wants to get to her before King Max does... Oh my imagination is going off on this again, I'll stop myself now before this becomes War & Peace

Although there also seems to be something about this blond girl (did she get a name, I can't recall? Need to rewatch TSAP)... could this "something" Iz *sensed* (recognized?) in Laurie (I think that was her name? Although I was also talking to "Laurie" today... my brain could be all scrambled now), could this be in Liz too? Whatever it is. Max certainly always seemed to not only have a *strong* affection for Liz... but as we Liz Mytholgists have often speculated, *recognized* Liz the MOMENT he saw her, hence began the infatuation. I don't know y'all... once again, my mind is brewing with speculations and my fingers can't move fast enough to get them on this post!!

Something else I want to get out quick and then I must go release some Rebounder joygasms (LOVED the K/T interaction tonight ). Speaking of Tess... This is also something that immediately hit me every time Liz saw Sean. Concerning Liz's (possible) "attraction" to Sean...was anyone else reminded of the "strange attraction" Max was having for Tess when she first came on the scene? Is that why you mentioned mindwarp Starbox? Because that's why I thought you did. Tess was mindwarping Max to some extent... Sean (Khivar?) might have been doing it to Liz too. Not comparing Tess to Khivar... but just "alien tactics". At that time Tess was very alien, hence used an "alien tactic" (more than likely taught to her by Nasedo) to woo Max (but she's since seen the error of her ways I feel... Hey, I'm becoming a Tess-fan, who'd have thought? ). Hence Khivar could be using this same "alien tactic" on Liz.... to get her. Once again I'm REALLY hoping I'm not right. I certainly hope Max & Liz get back together soon... I have this horrible gut feeling and the ulcer has got S.E.A.N. written all over it!

Melodious

Yup Melodious - that is JUST what I thought of - especially in the first scene.
Creepy creepy creepy - I dont want anyone messing with Liz - BUT a protective Max would be a wonderful thing..

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

The only symbolism I seen was on Izzy's nightstand when she first went to sleep there was a drawing of the butterfly symbol from Max's drawing of the cave symbols in a spiral notebook. Maybe that symbol is somehow related to the cloning etc.

The skull on the collage in Isabel's room?

The fish next to The Buddah at Senor Chows?

As for the chips, Dan asks for Sweet and Sour, not Sweet and Spicy nachos! Yes, he seems FBI to me and Sean gives me the creepy feeling! Our Liz would not be so mesmerized by anybody whose name is not Max Evans!

We talk about Tess but Liz is the one to have kissed six guys so far...hmmm.... (Kyle, Max, Doug Shellow, Maxcedo, Rath, Bratt!).

The first CD they advertised after the show had a face and bees all over it, hmmm....

The reason probably why TicTac/Nasedo had that amused look on his face in Sexual Healing might have been because he knows about the sibling relationship between Liz and Khivar.

Oh well maybe when Serena makes her apperance, maybe we'll get some more insight as to who Liz really is.

I might be working way more into this then Katims planned... but all this Max / healing / "Are you an angel?" / *he doesn't believe in God but he believes in Liz* stuff from ARCC. I have a hard time believing the raining rose petals were just some fluke.

btw, something else I thought was weird about that dream sequence.... when Max tells Liz, "Brad doesn't even exist".... then Sean comes in literally a few scenes later. Brad = Sean.... Sean doesn't even exist? Sean doesn't exist because Sean isn't Sean, he's someone/thing else? Someone/thing probably not-of-this-earth and probably MUY bad (Khivar?).

Melodious

Buddah at Senior Chows
Dan calls Valenti an old war horse
Dan also tells Valenti to put his cards down.

Look behind Valenti at Senior Chows-- there is a vase. On it is a Chinese Character, but it looks awfully alienesque to me!

Buddah at Senior Chows[/B]

There was also a Buddha in the Crashdown during Liz's dream sequence QFanny. I think y'all already caught it too (it's in some of the screencaps, it's behind Max, when he's glancing up momentarily. Liz has her hand on "Brad's" chest)... it's only there for a second and it's gone. It's also a Buddha with an alien head. Interesting.

I also found Kyle's dream quite interesting. I don't know if it was just supposed to be mostly comic relief (besides dropping the hint Kyle is also changed by Max ... I *definitely* think the guy is changed now). "Buddha" tells Kyle (I think, REALLY need to rewatch TSAP) to "go fight aliens because Max Evans changed him when he healed him"... or something. If Kyle is changed, then now he also is destined (or was always destined) to join the pod squad "fight aliens"... not unlike Liz (who is probably the most changed by this ordeal). Is this the 'destiny' of ALL the people Max heals... then what about those kids in ARCC?! There are 6 other potential members of the *evil alien-fighting* Scooby Gang out there (or there will be as soon as they're old enough to drive at least!)? Or was there ALWAYS something about Liz (and possibly Kyle) that only THEY can change but no other humans can due to a Max-healing?

Melodious

One question, I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but if the girl (Laurie or Melissa?) wasn't missing then who was the girl who showed up at the police station?

Need to rewatch before saying anymore
Roxy

I did find the Sean/Liz interaction uncomfortable and I did find Officer Dan very strange.

Other than that, I did not find many endearing qualities in the ep. I guess I just miss the relationship angle. No Max/Liz!! It is just too depressing.

I did have one thought though. Did anyone else think "Oh my God! Iz is going to find out that Liz did not sleep with Kyle! Yeah!" when Iz picks Liz's picture out of the yearbook. I was disappointed when that did not happen. But I did think it strange that Max told Iz to stay away from Liz and not dreamwalk her. You would think that he would want to know what she is dreaming about, unless he already knows and is waiting for her to come around.

One question, I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but if the girl (Laurie or Melissa?) wasn't missing then who was the girl who showed up at the police station?

Need to rewatch before saying anymore
Roxy

Sunrise, the girl that showed up at the police station was Melissa.

And here he is (although I'm pretty sure someone else pointed this out already, I'm sorry, I can't remember who)...

pic borrowed by the DDD

This episode really had a lot of litte tidbits and information in it that will be fun to pick through. Part of the reason why I liked it so much was because it so weird.

Did you notice the Exit sign between Grant and Isabel at the movie?

Or how Isabel got a flash when Grant was rubbing her cerebral cortex?

Or Liz stating the she thought the "fryer" was still warm. I thought back to SH when she told Maria she was not going to "do it" between the fryer and the kiolbasa machine.

Did you notice that Dan at Senior Chow's was TOTALLY ignoring Jim's comments about the Hubble shooting? He was looking for the Sweet and Spicy Tortilla chips!

What I really liked is how they used SEASON ONE Information to start of the show!

[*] Liz is barefoot in the dream sequence.
[*] She tells Sean that the fryer is warm. (The fryer as mentioned in SH as a possible, yet undesirable location for sex.) This also implies that the "kitchen" is still open.
[*] Maria tells Sean that Liz is in a "delicate, fragile" place right now.

Sorry, I know that the writers really don't mean this, but I think the symbolism is there. Please don't go off stating Liz is pregnant. I am not serious, I am just pointing it out.

Qfanny, I am so happy that someone else noticed the Exit sign above Isabel and Grant's head at the movie theater! Another thing I noticed in the episode was that Buddha's cell phone in Kyle's dream sounded like the orb beeping. This might be OT, but does Grant's hairstyle sort of resemble Alex's. I just wondering if I was the only one that thought Grant was looking like Alex.

Beth

Liz is barefoot in the dream sequence.
She tells Sean that the fryer is warm. (The fryer as mentioned in SH as a possible, yet undesirable location for sex.) This also implies that the "kitchen" is still open.
Maria tells Sean that Liz is in a "delicate, fragile" place right now.

Sorry, I know that the writers really don't mean this, but I think the symbolism is there. Please don't go off stating Liz is pregnant. I am not serious, I am just pointing it out.

I gosh, could this be hint for the future Maybe the delicate condition was a symbolism for Liz still being in the process of her metamophosis. That this stage, is extremely important: A very delicate stage; Liz has to be extremely careful. I know I know, I'm reaching

Melodious1 - I don't think the childrn in RCC are changed. In the cut scene from MITC and even in the uncut scene, Ava states that if whomever was brought back from the dead they'd be different. Those children weren't brought back from the dead. They were very ill, but were not near death, the way Liz and Kyle were.

Also, Brody isn't changed (as far as we know) and he was healed by an alien. But he wasn't near death. Deathly ill, but not crossing over to the other side like Kyle and Liz almost did. With Max healing the children this way, maybe this will make them open to possesion in the future, the aliens might be able to use their bodies to do the possession thing like in MITC.

This was bad casting in my opinion.

Sean/Kivhar do you think he just possesed the body?
If liz is his sister than how can you explain the attraction he has to her?

Bluecommon can you Pm please

I am totally into the whole finding out about their human DNA donors. But I'm also scared. I just saw and felt some weird vibes between Max and Isabel. Add that to the fact that they look nothing alike. Why would they have created the hybrids of Zan and Vilandra and make them look so different?

I'm thinking that they are going to turn it around. I know that this has a bunch of holes in it, but just behr with me. The picture that they showed in the promo from last week was of a man that looked exactly like Michael. And the girl who was buried alive, Laurie I think, recongized him and flipped out. Isabel had an intense connection with her before she went into the ambulance. She said something of the fact that she felt familiar. That just sent a wierd vibe through me. I hope that I'm wrong though. Please let me be wrong.

But back to Liz. Although we didn't get a lot of screentime with her. I really think that they are intentionally driving us nuts with holding back the Liz story line. Jason is really playing up the Tess and Kyle storyline, bringing them together, bonding them. As much as I like it, (I'm a Rebounder, but a closest one. I'm scared that as soon as I start to like Tess, they're gonna do something with her that is going to make me hate her again, and I don't trust her anyway.) I'm a little suspicious of it.

But when I saw the whole rose petals fall from the ceiling. Totally American Beauty flashback but with different connotations. I think that a lot of Liz's change is her becoming ready for Max in every sense of the meaning. Physically, emotionaly, metally and I don't know, species-like? I just don't have a word for it. And I think that with the end of this series, we'll have a clearer answer. At least I hope.

Oh, and Liz reconized Sean because she knows him from being Maria's friend for years. At least that's what I've figured. And I have a feeling that Liz is thinking of using Sean as a distraction of her obession with Max. And while I'm amused to see the growth in Liz's character into a bit of a player of sorts, I'm also annoyed.

*Warning rant*

Bloody H*LL! Why can't the WB let us have one character that sacrifices everything (i.e. Angel & Liz) for their love remain faithful? Why can't they become stronger and isolated from other realtionships after their sacrifices? Why can't they simply wait, and not necessarily patiently, for their loves? IS that too much to ask?

Okay, done for now. I'm gonna end this cause it's really long. Sorry!

I have to reserve my "deeper" comments for when I have rewatched TSAP, but for now I have to agree with the common sentiment that something is definitely up with Sean. I also had visions of Max reacting to Tess when she had just showed up in town. Liz obviously knew Sean previously, and maybe there was a bit of a schoolgirl crush back when she "wasn't so grown up"? But, PLEASE don't 90210 us, and ruin the specialness of what M&L are (any more than it has already been so far this season)! I like the idea that Sean might be a shapeshifter come to check out what is going on. Did anyone call the jail to verify that Sean had actually been release on good behavior? Maybe the real Sean is still incarcerated?? It makes sense - if the writers have decided to actually pursue one of our more prominent theories - to have her targeted.

I loved the rose petals - and great catch about the Budha. Notice the time on the clock? Almost Midnight - the time Cinderella CHANGES back into the maid. Ummmm ....

I wish there were more Liz AND more Max/Liz interaction! Again - there were way more questions raised than answers! BOO - I WANT ANSWERS!! The guy in the mask definitely looked like Grant - at least the eyes in the first scene were his.

I also thought the scenes between T&K were cute - especially the remote control one - even my husband (who is not a big fan ) was laughing! I don't see much evidence that connects to Liz though - other than I felt sorry for K while he was trying to talk to Liz and she got totally distracted by Sean. What was up with that?? I wouldn't call it a mindwrap, but ... very strange!

A couple of other comments - Why if Iz can dreamwalk by touching a picture - made obvious in the beginning - did she not dreamwalk Melissa (name?)when she had her picture. It looked like she was going to do it, but didn't! I loved the green shield FX. But Dan had to have seen what happened. The timing seemed a bit too convenient there?? And the cell structure that we were flashed was very interesting. Any comments on that?

Okay - I've rambled enough! I look forward to what you all pick up. I plan to rewatch tomorrow to see if there is anything I missed.

Zero
I Shall (Continue, and Continue to) Believe!

Did you notice that Dan at Senior Chow's was TOTALLY ignoring Jim's comments about the Hubble shooting? He was looking for the Sweet and Spicy Tortilla chips!

Qfanny- Actually, he asked for sweet and sour tortillas. I read the script and payed close attention to this line since someone on the spoiler board also thought it was sweet and spicy.

alienfactors-I believe that the guy playing Sean is very young, around the age of the rest of the cast.

Someone mentioned something about a promo shot of two hands holding and someone else speculated that it could be Isabel and Brody's hands. I read spoilers and I won't get into details but from what I have read it could be their hands. Now please people, don't freak and go around saying I said that Brody and Isabel are a couple. There are many reasons that people hold hands, not all of those reasons are romantic.

In regards to the Kyle dream scene, in the original script Kyle dreams of a shirtless Max and then worries that he is gay. Supposedly it was a funny scene.

I also wanted to mention that just because Kyle thinks that he is now changed does not mean that he is changed. Remember, Tess said that she did not know what would happen to Kyle, maybe he would be part alien and maybe nothing would happen. Her words, ladies and gentlemen, not mine.

Hmmm...Sean as Kvar? Maybe so. I posted on the Sci Fic thread that I think his connection to Maria through her unknown parent/grandparent might be significant.

Liz is barefoot in the dream sequence.
She tells Sean that the fryer is warm. (The fryer as mentioned in SH as a possible, yet undesirable location for sex.) This also implies that the "kitchen" is still open.
Maria tells Sean that Liz is in a "delicate, fragile" place right now.
And the planet alignment effect is remarkably like female human ovulation.

I too noticed the obvious dietary hints. Could also be like pickles & ice cream.

Are-firm-ative. You'll probably hear from me again.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

I just saw TSAP 2 times, the last one I was watching it frame by frame, and here are some clues I found....

1) When Izzy and Max where watching Tv, some of the programs and comercials where:
- one of a diamond ring sale, with just "4" easy payments...
- a movie that showed "4" men in "horses"...
- some guy that's talking, and in his shirt i read "Screw r"???

2) When Izzy was holding the yearbook, is saw that the "fifth" picture was from Liz...
- in Liz's dream I saw an alien doll in a yoga position.
- in the dream, when Liz an Max where kissing I saw that they were forming a "V" with their arms around eachother.
- Before she dreamwalked Kyle, in one page of the yearbook, I saw this:
The picture have...
they so often go...
prepared and m...
custodians take...
students. The friends...
are always a great...
.. during breakfast ...
are having one of tho...
think the cooks and...
job and we would like to...
them how much we app...
they do for us....
-And also in that page there were "4" pictures...

3) In Kyle's dream, I saw a mountain behind Buddha, I think is the same as the granolith mountain.

4) The first time they show the sheriff's station, outside there's a clock and it was 3:56pm, "4" minutes before "4"o'clock.
- When Dan was with Valenti at Senor Chows (remember Crazy?) , behind them there was a buddha statue.

5) When Kyle was watching tv, he wanted to see channels "15" and "23" (2+3=5)...

6) When Grant was watching Tv at Isabel's home, there was one commercial about "4" airplanes... and also was a weather report: barometer= 30.01 (3+1=4)...

7) Melissa had a "silver" car (Toyota)...

8) Maria told Sean there were some rules, She said "4" rules...

9) When Izzy was the second time in her bedroom, she was in making a "4" with her legs and with her arms...

10) Later, Dan told Valenti to "let the CARDS on the table"...

11) When Kyle is at the Crashdown talking to Liz, behind him there's a diamond window (I think it's the backroom door)...

12) Laurie was in Frazier Woods (remember ITT?)

13) The guy with blue eyes watching Valenti, Izzy, and Max was Grant, and the shooter wasn't him..
- The armed guy fired "4" times, and Valenti fired back "5" times...

Finally, in the next week's promo, I saw:

1) When Laurie was running away from someone, I saw a "white" fence...
2) When Laurie was found in the closet, I saw a wallpaper of animals, and one of those animals was a "horse"...
3) Someone was holding a bag of cheetos, and I saw the price: "25c" ...

Sorry for the long post.... Tell me what you think ok?

Take care...

Oraliax1

Since I am spoiled about this series of episodes - I probably wont speculate much on the hybrid stuff.

Shapeshifter - I think the collage in Isabel's room is really interesting - esp the skull (its not a very Isabel-ish decorating motif)

I also agree with whoever said the "pregnancy" imagery was a spiritual "pregnancy" - the caterpillar coming out of the cocoon if you will.

A thought about Sean - I DEFINATELY think he is an alien - but it is also possible that he is there to protect Liz. To get close to her in order to protect her. After all - Liz's judgement is usually correct.

Kyle - I personally dont think Kyle is going to be changed. HE obviously thinks he is - but I dont know - I just dont see it happening.

**Starbox**
mythologist, dreamer

Did anyone else think that when Dan entered Jim's office for the first time the dialog and tone were very much like when Everett Hubble appeared in Jim's office the first time? I saw it as an "ALIEN HUNTER" warning, that and the war horse comment.

Great episode! I loved the look.

I slow-moed the shooting scene it looked like Valenti clipped the shooter in the shoulder. Was Dan coming from the same direction?

So many new suspicious people in this episode! FUN! Love it. Lots to think about.

What do you think about when the blonde girl stares into Is's molecules? Is she taking something from her when she does that or finding out what Isabel is? Or something else?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I did notice the sweet and sour statement that Dan made regarding the chips. I thought it was odd and sort of out of place. It seemed like he knew about the bizarre alien taste bud thing but got it wrong when actually verbalizing it. I think he did see everything that happened at the clearing (green shield and all). He must have followed them there, hung back to wait and see what would happen, and then appeared when shots were fired. He knows...

I agree with everyone else's opinion that Sean's appearance was wierd. His presence was odd, the timing of his "release" was odd, and the way Liz was captivated by him was odd. When I thought about it last night, I wondered if the real Sean were still in lock up (Maria just seemed surprised to see him, and the good behavior excuse was lame).

Could the equation now be Sean = Grant = Khivar? I don't think anyone trusts Grant as far as we can kick him, same for Sean. Why couldn't they all be the same shapeshifter using any means possible to work their way into the group or close to it to get info? The dreamer in me hopes that Sean will act as a catalyst for the reunion of Max and Liz - maybe his presence will be the kick in the butt that Max needs to get back with Liz. I do think he is less whole and less powerful without Liz by his side (and she certainly seemed very lost without him in this ep).

I did notice the skull on Isabel's board - very odd. To me, it would symbolize some sort of fixation on death - an aspect of Isabel's personality that has never been brought up before. A blatant marker, I think, that went along with the story - the link to their past would die if Isabel didn't act.

Ok, sorry for the rambling. I was just very excited by this ep because I actually thought that I picked up on some stuff. Back to reading everyone else's brilliance!

It's been a long time since I've posted, but my heads ALL a spin after last night's TSAP eppy. I just have a few comments and then I want to sit back and read everyone ELSE's thought (you guys tend to be more insightful than I do).

1) Where has Grant been? We saw him last in Surprise?? And now, all of a sudden, he's taking Iz out? And, how bizarre did he look when Max came into the kitchen? He was all slumped over and certainly not trying to impress Max at all. You'd think if he were REALLY interested in Iz don't you think he'd want to get on Max's good side?

2) I don't like Sean. He's moving in on Liz and I DON'T like it! What I want to know is what's his deal? Maria obviously has some animosity towards him and something just seems "off" - keep away from Liz, Sean!

3) I loved the Kyle line. I'm liking him more and more since him and Liz in EOTW! He's got this funny, sweet, paranoid side to him that I think is adorable! The dream sequence of his was TOO FUNNY!

Anyway, I have more thoughts, but my phone keeps ringing, so.. I'll get back to ya.

I'm oh so happy about last night's episode. Who said it felt like the old Roswell? I definitely agree.

Fuzzies

Okay, well, the only thing I have to say is kind of a disagreement on the Kyle situation. I was holding my breath to see if he would like the sweet, spicy whatever that Tess was eating. I think he did. I mean, he asked for another bite, as if he really, against his will, liked it. So that's my take. I think Kyle is changed.

There were so many funny things in this ep, not the least of which was Liz's dream. "Oh, my"! I almost died laughing. It was SO corny. But sweet, at the same time.

Sean's mysterious appearance may be meant to be a distraction for Liz. Probably for a normal human girl, having a distraction from an awful breakup would be a really good and healthy thing. For Liz, it could be dangerous to some of the people she cares about most. What if Sean, by distracting Liz from seeing signs of an impending crisis, causes a close call for the Pod Squad? When she realizes what is going on, the experience may help her get her priorities in order. This may also help her embrace the changes she has been through, and to understand the fact that she can no longer try to act like a normal human girl.

The ending of the episode also points to Laurie as someone really important. Could it be that she will know some of Liz's history as well as that of the Pod Squad. She really seemed freaked out my Michael (in the promo), though, so maybe she will be linked only to him, but will give the rest clues to where they came from.

Sorry about the rant...just thinking again.

One question...Did Laurie look into Isabel's cell structure, or did Isabel look into Laurie's? I thought it was Isabel looking into Laurie, but I'm curious what everyone else thinks.

I have to reserve my "deeper" comments for when I have rewatched TSAP, but for now I have to agree with the common sentiment that something is definitely up with Sean. I also had visions of Max reacting to Tess when she had just showed up in town. Liz obviously knew Sean previously, and maybe there was a bit of a schoolgirl crush back when she "wasn't so grown up"? But, PLEASE don't 90210 us, and ruin the specialness of what M&L are (any more than it has already been so far this season)! I like the idea that Sean might be a shapeshifter come to check out what is going on. Did anyone call the jail to verify that Sean had actually been release on good behavior? Maybe the real Sean is still incarcerated?? It makes sense - if the writers have decided to actually pursue one of our more prominent theories - to have her targeted.

Zero
I Shall (Continue, and Continue to) Believe!

Hey Mythers..OK, I have to add my .02 here about the Sean/Liz thing. You might not like what I have to say, cause it's kind of simple...but here goes.

Think back to the dream sequences. Liz tells Maria that she needs her to "help me get a life". Then Liz dreams about a strange man walking into the CD and sweeping her off of her feet. OK, it doesn't work in the end and she ends up with Max, but this is what she is dreaming about. People dream about things that they are trying to work out in their waking lives. Liz is obsessed with Max, and it seems her subconscious is working overtime trying to deal with it. (hold the max!).

In any case, you have a dream the night before about a tall, light haired, good looking guy walking into the CD and sweeping you off the feet -- the next day, a tall, light haired, good looking guy walks into the CD...well, you would probably stare at him a bit weirdly too. I think that Liz sees Sean as a possible distraction to help her get over her Max obsession. Remember, in the dream, she ends up with Max? It'll happen that way on the show, too.

Of course, he could be an evil alien plotting to kill them all...or he could be one of the podsters race sent down to protect them. But, as of now, this is my guess as to who he is.

And if Sean is something other than he appears to be...he's Maria's cousin! What kind of implications does that have??????

I'm dying to go back and watch that "Previously on Roswell..." section!

Tell me about it, and if he's a shapeshifter protector or enemy, how would he even know about Maria's cousin and what he looked liked???? Hmmmmmm...................

I have thought ever since enter, Grant, that he is Khivar. The pseudo-recognition between he and Isabel when he walks into Crashdown is just too reminiscent of Max and Liz when they first see each other.

Have you checked out the cover of the Roswell Quiz book from season 1. It is odd because it only shows Max, Isabel, Michael & Liz.

Where is Maria?

She was a major part of season 1 and why didn't they show Tess since she is the official 4th alien.

Just a thought before I start work.

Have you checked out the cover of the Roswell Quiz book from season 1. It is odd because it only shows Max, Isabel, Michael & Liz.

Where is Maria?

She was a major part of season 1 and why didn't they show Tess since she is the official 4th alien.

Just a thought before I start work.

One thing to notice is that most of Season 1 stuff has those 4 - M/Mi/Iz/L. I think it's because it started out really to be "Liz's Story", so she was considered as vital as the aliens.

I saw it the other way -- Laurie looking into Isabel.

One interesting comment I caught from Kyle... When he's talking to Tess about his transMAXification he says "I didn't ask for this..." Remember Liz in MISSING says she had prayed for a change.

VOICEOVER: October 28th. I've missed a few days. But in my absence I've been thinking about some things, about life before Max Evans saved me, of how I used to pray for something to happen, something to just break the routine, you know, of school and work...something that would make a small town feel bigger, that would make a small town girl feel bigger, too. And ever since I got my wish and Max Evans patched a bullet hole 2 inches below my ribs, I realized one thing...that the bigger your world gets, the bigger your problems get, too.

I just thought that was a nice subtle allusion to a difference between Kyle's and Liz's resurrections.

Someone over on the Sci-fi thread pointed out that Liz calls the cook "Eddie" when she's complaining about a late order. I missed that on first viewing. So is friggin' Eddie working at the Crashdown now? Cosmic.

i still think grant must be khivar because of Iz's reaction to him and Max's dislike.

i was thinking about the shooter in a particularly boring class this morning and i thought maybe it was DPTY. HANSON.
i let him go in SB, but this time he was just back up to his old tricks, and i don't like it! i would just be too obvious for JK to make Dan the shooter.

In any case, you have a dream the night before about a tall, light haired, good looking guy walking into the CD and sweeping you off the feet -- the next day, a tall, light haired, good looking guy walks into the CD...well, you would probably stare at him a bit weirdly too. I think that Liz sees Sean as a possible distraction to help her get over her Max obsession. Remember, in the dream, she ends up with Max? It'll happen that way on the show, too.

Point taken Metaphysical and you definitely could be right. Sean could be no more of a villain then Kyle was early first season. However... I suppose it's just my brain which usually sways to that of the paranoid ... but where "Roswell" Season 2 is concerned, I'm inclined to suspect *everyone* new in the story Whitaker, Courtney, Nikolas, the Dupes, Sgt. Dan... the list goes on and on of *new* characters who turned out to be either two-faced and/or "more than they seemed to be" (and usually in a bad way, with the exception of Courtney).

Although I did feel (as you seemed to as well) Brad possibly represented Sean to some extent. If so, then what does that line Max says about Brad mean exactly? "Brad doesn't even exist." Does it mean Sean, although he's there, might as well not exist because he won't "get in the way of their [Max & Liz's] love" per se or does it *literally* mean "*Sean* doesn't exist"?... if it's the latter, why? Although take all that with a grain of salt, once again could be my paranoid imagination working over time

I've had speculations before on Khivar possibly able to "emissary" not only one particular human body, but several and randomly (not simultaneously however). Perhaps Khivar IS in Sean... but after he takes in the lay of the land, he hops into another body "more suitable to his needs" or whatever.

btw, where the h**l is Alex??

quote:Of course, he could be an evil alien plotting to kill them all...or he could be one of the podsters race sent down to protect them. But, as of now, this is my guess as to who he is.

You're right, we haven't been given any "skin peeling" or "answering long distance calls via alien beeper" (unlike "Buddha" , Great catch to whoever said Buddha's cell ring sounded like that alien beeper beeping from DESTINY)... so we probably should chill with the Sean speculating for now. Although, I can't shake the creepy vibe off the guy once it's stuck on there

quote:And if Sean is something other than he appears to be...he's Maria's cousin! What kind of implications does that have??????

That delves into a whole plethora of speculating for me, particularly involving Maria and possible "previous alien connections"... we speculate to high heaven on Liz's family line... what about Maria's?

Melodious

Zara: I read a little more into this.
Liz said, "Dam it Eddie, where is my order?!?" If the first seasons clues are still in the running and that is a big IF, this might mean that Liz is really getting sick of waiting for her orders from Riverdog. Who was the one on Riverdog and Balance who passed along information and orders from Riverdog? That's right, no one other then EDDIE.
You tell him Liz, we are just as sick as you are, and it's about time you got your dam order. What might that order be? "The time has come for you to take your place as the Choosen One." Let's just hope it's not, "I'll have an order fries." Liz will then write down the order, smile and that will be it for the rest of the season. Hey, it's sad to say but it's Season Two and this really could happen.

Evid

The touchy-feely Max/Isabel stuff was NOT intended. Evidently it was not obvious when they were filming - it only became obvious once they started editing and saw all of the scenes together. It has been discussed and was stopped before the next episode (ARCC) finished filming. I know I am relieved. :-)

Other behind-the-scenes stuff - they ran out of OJ in the Kyle/Tess scene - if you look you can see that the OJ is oddly colored even BEFORE Emile pours tabasco (aka tomato juice) in - it was "recycled" OJ.
Also they had to keep telling Emile to be more agressive with her tobasco sauce application - hence the POURING that ended up being filmed. :-)

And a note to me spoiled buddies - I KNOW you all are DYING to speculate on the Wanda spoiler (I am DYING to speculate on it with all my brilliant mythologist buddies) - BUT remember - BE GOOD! Keep it a suprise for the non-spoiled. No speculation yet.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I think Kyle is changed. Also, I think (I think) maybe the reason why Buddha is in the backgrond at the Crashdown is because maybe they are hinting at a possible Kyle/Liz paring again, I mean, he was talking to her and when she wasn't paying attention to him, he said, "nothing, I was just talking to myself"

If you notice, she does that a lot with him, she did that to him when Max appeared on the screen, and you know how some shows go, they may try to make it one day where she says something like, "You were the One all along, and I couldn't even see it" you know, to show how those things happen????

because think of it this way, since they are both changed, and FM did say that Kyle was turning into a fine young man....I don't know what you guys thing about that???

Also, for the Liz Myths, kinda hate to bust you guys bubbles, but I think that JK might have took some of those Human DNA theories you guys had and instead of making Liz having human essence, they brought in Laurie DuPree, unless, Laurie is just a human donor???

I don't know, just some rambling, what do you think?

Evid

Evid

I second your sentiments Evid. Okay, I try to avoid negativity towards any particular ship fandom when I can, but I'm sorry, I just find the idea of Max/Isabel EXTREMELY discomforting. I also have a brother Evid, granted, he's no where near as sensitive as Max (nor are we alien hybrid royals hiding the secret from the world and our parents while saving girls buried alive, hiding from the Skins, etc etc)... BUT... ::cringe::... When you're RAISED believing someone is your brother and Max AND Isabel have both said on various occasions there's that *special* bond between them (sibling bond that is)... As far as we're led to believe, they ARE bro and sis... then seeing those touchy-feely scenes in TSAP. Ugh.

The fact that TPTB caught it too after the ep was shot kind of confirms the Max/Iz "closeness" was a little "over the top" per se and some of us with the "ew" feeling during TSAP weren't over-reacting. I'm very relieved it wasn't intended.

Melodious

Evid - I loved your take on it and went back to have another look at the scene. It looks like Riverdog and Eddie are actually in the Crashdown! (Has everybody noticed this but me?) Riverdog is sitting in the background between Sean and Maria, and at the very beginning of the scene Eddie walks across the frame and exits left. I think you're right, Liz is waiting for her orders! Way to go, Evid!

Pardon me for asking but have the creators admitted to seeing this sort of thing go "over the top"? Where was this said?

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

quote:Originally posted by oraliax1:
1) I noticed that when Liz and Max where at Kyle's house searching for the journal, they we're not alone: I saw a shadow watching them. Then when Kyle arrived and they left the house, again I saw that same shadown, it was from a man. He was ouside hidden in the bushes, you can see his face. Does anyone have a screencap of that one? I don't know who that man was...
Thank you for reminding me of this. I actually do have a screen cap of the mystery man. I just need to upload it. I've been wondering who he was and if this was a line of plot they decided not to use.

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
but in the Liz dream sequence - when Max said "you want someone that can do this" - what he did was make rose petals fall from the ceiling.
I thought that whole scene was VERY sexual - Could the falling rose petals speak of Liz's subconcious desire to have Max "de-flower" her.....
Oh wow! Excellent thought StarBox. I didn't realize those were rose petals. They looked like falling leaves to me. Rose petals are far more beautiful imagery. And I agree with you that it does speak of sexual imagery, i.e a bed of roses. Although they could just be the imagery of "love".

quote:Originally posted by Melodious1:
voila.... Liz is a target.
I've always thought that that is the direction the show would go eventually. I personally thought that it would be our season cliffhanger, if not this season, then next. I just think that she is the most vunerable of all of them and Max is vulnerable because of this. Although don't get me wrong, I think Liz is the stongest character/person on the show. I just think if they want to get to Max, this is definitely the way to go. And what drama it would be! I can just see myself screaming at the television as they carry Liz off to the unknown and we break for summer. Yikes! What a terrible thought. Nevermind. I don't want to give you guys nightmares.

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
- I dont want anyone messing with Liz - BUT a protective Max would be a wonderful thing..
Yup, just what I was thinking. Max had better intervene soon. I don't like the way Sean was looking at Liz, although I'm not convinced yet that he is an alien and has mindwarp capabilities.

quote:Originally posted by bluecornmoon:
I can't find the meaning of dragonflies (there is one on the cover of a book in Isabel's stand) and it looks very much like a butterfly!
The skull on the collage in Isabel's room?
I noticed these two also. And I thought it awefully strange that Isabel would have a skull on her collage.

quote:Originally posted by Melodious1:
With all the speculations on Liz and the Virgin Mary... ALL I could think of was iconoclastic miracle. Max makes miracles because of (in the name of) Liz... Max will fight only for Liz??
Oooo... great thought Melodious.

I'm glad others noticed the familiar beeping of the cell phone in Kyle's dream.

Did you notice they use the same dialog between Max and Isabel as they used between Max and Liz at the end of ARCC? After Max harshly critisizes her and she apologizes, he says "I believe in you". Is this just reinforcement of Max's desire to believe in his friends around him?

Regarding Isabel's vision when she touches Laurie at the end of TSAP, I thought that Isabel was seeing inside Laurie not the other way around.

So, as usual, we are left with a multitude of questions once again. And very few answers. It is a good thing the suspense is so good, otherwise I think I'd die of the frustration from all these unanswered questions and lack of Max&Liz.

Well, is the kidnapper really Grant? Everything else in Isabel's vision came true. Is he "just" some homicidal maniac or is he somehow related to these aliens and the alien mystery? Plus either way, now the kidnapper knows that Max is an alien from the green shield.

One last thing, yah - I know this is really long - sorry, did you catch the song playing in the background of the diner scene when Kyle is sitting at the counter, Maria, Liz, and Michael are behind the counter, and Sean walks in asking for fries? It was "Innocent" by Fuel. This is one of my favorite CD's right now and I listen to it constantly. The lyrics are about how complicated life is and not knowing what the future holds. Part of the chorus goes:
quote:Never armed our souls
For What the future would hold
When we were innocent
Any thoughts my fellow mythologists?
I was kind of thinking it might relate to the innocence of Liz. How she may not be suspecting Sean of anything. Or perhaps it relates back to the metamorphosis going on within Liz. How once she was innocent and now she has the knowledge of these aliens and her whole life has changes. hmm... just some food (or fries) for thought.

I've got to run now. Love to hear what you think.

I'm glad others noticed the familiar beeping of the cell phone in Kyle's dream.

[/B]

Maybe it's just me...but I don't think the Buddha was actually holding a "cell phone". I think it was supposed to be some sort of alien communicator - hence the beeping. Look at it closely and let me know what you think. I think it was just another way to show in that scene that Kyle is freaking out about the fact that Max supposedly changed him.

{~}:}

Here's why I like Sean. He will act as a catalyst to bring Max and Liz back together. Max will see that Sean likes Liz and then "do something." They will finally be able to talk. Maybe Max will finally be able to forgive Liz. And maybe Liz will see that love isn't about caring and obsessing over someone, love is in your actions. Liz's actions still tells me that she loves Max. She is the one making the sacrafice. Max just thinks it's him.

Also, Evid, I just loved your comments about Liz stating "Damn it Eddie, where's my order?". I hadn't thought of Eddie since his last appearance in Balanced. But a Riverdog is a badger, and a badger makes dams. An eddy is "a current", i.e. whirlpool. A current of water is held back by a dam. So when Liz says, "Damn it Eddie, where's my order." Is Liz actually stating she's stuck behind a dam and needs an order (help) to over come it?

S-t-r-e-t-c-h

But when I saw this I just thought of Liz and the 5th element

White Snake

Year 2001 is the year of Golden Snake or Metal Snake. Year 2001 is also called the Year of White Snake, because Metal is equivalent to White in the Five Elements system.

Many Chinese would prefer to say year 2001 is the year of White Snake, because there is a thousand-year-old Chinese love story about a man and a White Snake that has been adapted to comics, cartoons, novels, opera and movies so many times.

Please read the legend of the white snake

By the way yall do a great job. Congrats to all of yall. I hope yall find it interesting(webpage). But if someone already mentioned it just ignore it.......See yall later

I am glad I could put your minds at ease a bit :-) Chad - I sent you a PM. To clarify - I dont think it was as much as it being "over the top" as it was the cumulative effect of all the scenes put together.

I have some mythological stuff to post (suprise suprise - LOL) but I am going to hold off for the new thread.
In the meantime - enjoy :-)

Screencaps courtesy of www.theddd.com

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Or maybe it was intentional.

quote:Originally posted by aldebaran:
...I did notice the sweet and sour statement that Dan made regarding the chips. I thought it was odd and sort of out of place. It seemed like he knew about the bizarre alien taste bud thing but got it wrong when actually verbalizing it. ...

Could the equation now be Sean = Grant = Khivar? I don't think anyone trusts Grant as far as we can kick him, same for Sean. Why couldn't they all be the same shapeshifter using any means possible to work their way into the group or close to it to get info? The dreamer in me hopes that Sean will act as a catalyst for the reunion of Max and Liz....Awesome theorizing aldebaran! You are too modest. It all rings true for me.

But Evid, nobody can top your deduction : quote:Liz said, "Dam it Eddie, where is my order?!?" If the first seasons clues are still in the running and that is a big IF, this might mean that Liz is really getting sick of waiting for her orders from Riverdog. Who was the one on Riverdog and Balance who passed along information and orders from Riverdog? That's right, no one other then EDDIE....and Zara, now I'll have to watch it a third time! Cameo appearances?

redhawk, I caught the repeat of the "I believe in you" line. Sounds like Max has come full circle from when he couldn't trust anyone.

Qfanny et al: About Sean: I would assume since he is an ex-con that we are supposed to be 'suspicious' of him for now. Of course, we also have Valenti the good cop living outside of the law.

Mavonne, I agree with you on the brother/sister thing. And anything that could be considered a little "over the top" would be explained by the fact that they are not brother & sister, but 2 very attractive actors. Looking at the screen cap of Max & Liz kissing amidst rose petals I can only imagine the actors must have **ahem** enjoyed it.

One more thing: There are a lot of us females posting here--am I the only one who laughed out loud (and doesn't usually) at the Isabel-changing-clothes scene? I could really relate!

Think back to the dream sequences. Liz tells Maria that she needs her to "help me get a life". Then Liz dreams about a strange man walking into the CD and sweeping her off of her feet. OK, it doesn't work in the end and she ends up with Max, but this is what she is dreaming about. People dream about things that they are trying to work out in their waking lives. Liz is obsessed with Max, and it seems her subconscious is working overtime trying to deal with it. (hold the max!).

In any case, you have a dream the night before about a tall, light haired, good looking guy walking into the CD and sweeping you off the feet -- the next day, a tall, light haired, good looking guy walks into the CD...well, you would probably stare at him a bit weirdly too. I think that Liz sees Sean as a possible distraction to help her get over her Max obsession. Remember, in the dream, she ends up with Max? It'll happen that way on the show, too.

I have to agree with you Metaphysicalgrl. This was my interpretation, too. Another thought I had on Sean was that he didn't seem like a delinquent or a punk as Maria seemed to be implying. He just seemed like a decent guy that has gotten a bad rep. Michael acts rougher than Sean does during the episode. Of course I guess that is why I keep screaming at the TV for him to stay away from Liz because of my dreamer affiliation I just wanted him to be evil. I don't know if this has made a point (or even sense:spineyes, but I just wanted to know if anyone felt it the same way.

Beth

Beth

I noticed the beeping right away--which is why I was surprised when it was a cell phone, b/c cell phones don't normally sound like that (even with all of the funky rings out there ). Could this mean that Kyle may be receptive to SH-like flashes too? I guess we'll have to wait till he & Tess kiss to find out!

As for Grant, I think there was a deliberate effort to make him look younger (must have used JB's makeup artist ), which would include a school-boy kind of haircut like Alex's.

I have much catch-up to do, since I only saw TSAP tonight (my local station bumped it to Tuesday ). bluecornmoon have you read your e-mail yet? I'm waiting not very patiently for your response--I'm nearly finished part 6 and I need to know what you thought of 5!!
~Tas

I think this is one of the symbols that traditionally you are supposed to place over the lintel of your front door, in order to bless your house. There are 3 symbols--a friend of mine was recently given a set. I'll ask her what they are again

StarBox Thanks for that behind-the-scenes info (I have yet to catch up there! ). That's interesting, though a little disappointing (unprofessional).

Melodious: I know that the touching was a sore subject, and I really hated to comment on it. Many posters thought it was a big distraction and it made it hard to follow the show. We do need to believe that they are Brother and Sister. Maybe I did read to much into it, because it has been at the back of my mind. I guess quite a few posters had the same problem.
If we do not speak we can not be herd.

Zara: I'm going to take another look at that scene and I'll reply back. When I herd Liz say Eddie, I just knew it was a clue. Now let's just see how long TPTB take to serve it up.

redhawk: Hey fellow Dreamer, I'm
downloading Innocent at this very moment and I will check on those lyrics and get back to you.

Qfanny: So Liz is stuck behind a dam and needs help? Where is Max when you need him? I really like how you broke down the names, it makes sence to me.

Lupita: Thanks for that site info, it was really interesting and it may hold some answers.

Starbox: Another Orb symbol pic. Not as clear as the LN overhead shot, but I think it still works.

Shapeshifter: Thanks for the acknowledgment. I'm really starting to get excited at the possibility of them bringing back the Native American Mythology. Being from Carlsbad NM (yes, that's where Grant went to get his equipment) it has always peeked my interest.

Evid

I thought that whole scene was VERY sexual - Could the falling rose petals speak of Liz's subconcious desire to have Max "de-flower" her.....

I agree Starbox, I also thought the whole "dream sequence" was overtly sexual. I wish this was mine, but it's not, I was discussing with clarinetkate yesterday night and she had a rather interesting speculation. I'm not sure on this season's timeline from last season, but Kate wondered if we're possibly nearing a time when the planets are in the (or near the) "Sexual Healing" positions. If I recall, last year as the time drew nearer and nearer, the situation between Max and Liz became gradually more intense (exploding in SH).

Kate, planets aside, also speculated Liz was possibly being very sexual in the dream because she isn't only "missing" Max emotionally, she's also missing him physically. She needs to be "recharged" so to speak (Kate's words ). Ava said in MITC that Liz is changing, perhaps her body is reacting chemically to the lack of physical contact with Max... hence Liz has become a Maxaholic. She can't stop thinking about him, she's dreaming about him constantly, etc etc

Granted, Liz's inability to stop thinking/dreaming about Max could be just a product of her love for him, but I found Kate's speculations intriguing regardless If Liz is *physically* missing Max... could Max be missing her in the same way? Will they both reach a point where they simply *can't* stay apart any longer... whether they're *emotionally* ready for it or not... their bodies reacting on their own accord.

Melodious

I don't know why, but there's this little sadistic part of me that actually *wants* that to happen.

Ok, this probably should be reserved for a fanfic or something... but how about this scenario:
Khivar finally reveals himself and has Liz in his clutches. He's taken Liz to the Granilith where he plans on using it to do God knows what (bring his people to Earth, destroy the planet, kill the Royals, whatever). Max and gang arrive. Max & crew demand Khivar release Liz.... Khivar is unrelenting, one step closer and Liz is dead. Khivar toys with Max... he'll let Liz go if he can have the Granilith (lies, he knows he has Max in his grasp regardless). Max can't give Khivar the Granilith and Liz wouldn't want him to anyway. Khivar starts up the Granilith and is about to destroy Earth and the Royal Four (?)... when Liz does *something*. Possibly hits the Granilith and/or Khivar... this action stops the destruction of Earth...but unfortunately, the Granilith grabs hold of Liz and Khivar and they're sucked into it ... destination Home Planet. Max screams for Liz and runs up to the Granilith just in time to reach up and touch his hand to Liz's... tears in their eyes. Liz tells Max she loves him and goodbye (role reversal from EOTW)... Liz disappears with Khivar, Khiv vowing vengeance against the Royals, esp. King Max. Max is devastated; crying for Liz. Max says he won't ever give up until he finds Liz again....

SEASON ENDS

...new season starts, Max and crew have embraced all their roles (hybrids and changed humans), if anything, to save Liz (and Earth). Time passes.... little does Max know Liz has already returned to Earth... but Liz isn't Liz. Khivar has changed her, brainwashed her, making her believe she's now in love with *him*, she even marries him (Khiv has also changed her, giving her immense power). Queen Liz (of the Skins) is on Earth to due her *husband's* bidding... destroy King Max Evans and everyone else who would get in Khivar's way. Liz is a dangerous enemy because she knows all the podsters secrets... their vulnerable points. **Like I told y'all, I'm a bit of a sadist ** Even throw in a scene where Liz and the Skins have captured the Royals and their (her) friends (a la Nikolas in WIPE OUT)... Liz goes as far as mindraping Max. Max/the pod squad can't hurt her, because it's still Liz's body. However, near / or in this season's finale... Liz (who has been gradually reacquainting herself with humanity and her love for Max - although she never forgot any of it - she was just "reprogrammed" not to care about it) is put at a crossroads, she has the opportunity to end the Royal Four by killing Max Evans. Right when you think she's about to do it.... she can't. She can't deny her love for Max and instead throws all her energy on Khivar. Whose mortally wounded, but manages to escape. All is eventually forgiven between Liz and Max... They are now reunited and stronger then ever (a force to be reckoned with ).

I really need to stop drinking long island iced teas so late at night! Ugh!

Melodious

As to Liz never seeing the granolith, if anyone tells her that the granolith is at the pod chamber, Liz will know where that is. She was in the pod chamber already in Destiny.

I don't think Isabel really knows the whole truth about the Kyle/Liz thing. Max didn't want to talk about it to anyone. Not even Tess. It seems to me that Isabel only knows that there is trouble and it has to do with Kyle, but nothing more.

As to Sean-
Liz and Michael both knew and recognized him from past meetings. How Michael knew him, I don't know since Michael didn't hang out with Maria until after Liz was shot. Could Sean have gone to school with them although in a higher grade? What did he do to end up in juvi and have so many people mad at him?

Right after Liz talks to Maria about being obsessed with Max and she says "I need help" Sean walks in. (Sean walking in at that point appeared in the script.)

Someone in Roswellnet email group mentioned a good point-Liz didn't offer to make some fries for Sean until Kyle started talking about their both being obsessed (Kyle and Liz.)

My take on this is that Sean is Maria's cousin. Someone Liz has met before and knows he's not going to stay. She probably sees him as "safe" enough to be a rebound guy and perhaps distract her for a time.

I thought that Budha's phone was actually the orb with an antenna and a flip. I need to go back and verify, but at they time I was going-'hey, that's the orb in Budha's hand.' That would explain the beep. How would Kyle know how the orb beeped anyway for his dream? I don't remember seeing him there to dig up the orb in SH. I was only able to see TSAP once at like 3am so I might have been halucinating from lack of sleep. I'll check again later. I'm going to bed.

[/BABBLE]

____________________
Wow. Just added it up. A whole whopping 8 hours of sleep for 3 days. Ignore me I'm sleep-typing.

Melodious

Once the life bond connections has firmly anchor one to the other, that is basically how the pair feels. The bond isn't permanent yet, though. At that stage they need each other to solidify the link, making it permanent.

i noticed the green exit sign at the movie theater b/w grant a iz's head. odd for an emergency sign to be in green. usually it's in red. hmmm... green maybe to show that iz and grant are not human?

i don't like sean hitting on liz. when he first said hi to liz and "... all grown up" wondered if liz maybe had a crush on him as a kid and slightly carried over into this period in time. i don't know.

quote:Originally posted by aldebaran:
Also, I have to say major kudos to [b]oraliax1 for those awesome observations!
[/B]

Thanks Starbox and Aldebaran for your comments, you both are very kind!!!

Take care....

Oraliax1

**StarBox**
mythologst, dreamer

Melodious1 - If you are a sadist, I must be a masochist for reading that scenario! That would be crazy to happen, but it would keep me hooked! And if it did happen, I do believe all the RBIs would go absolutely nuts!

Starbox - Thank you for the behind the scenes info. It makes me feel better about watching Max and Isabel interact now (though if we still thought their touching was a bit much, I would hate to see what was originally shot!)

Evid - I am going to rewatch the show (wait, twist my arm....ok, I'll rewatch!! ) to catch the Eddie/Riverdog stuff. I never made the connection when she said that (duh!) - I just thought it was funny.

But for me, the real question is, has Kyle ever seen an orb, or any alien objects, or heard them? Someone please respond, cause I can't remember!

Bring Back the Heart of Roswell

By the way, this is not a spoiler.

Moore said, "Revelations about their back story, where they came from, how they were created on Earth". CREATED ON EARTH!!!!
It looks like we have one question answered.

Evid

Off to start the new thread! Haven't up-dated the Intro, but hope to this weekend, so that #29 will have a fresh start.

See you all on #28!!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe!