Background

We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, season after season (a little optimism there ), finding “clues” to Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology and other relevant topics – and there are a lot of them! – and then developing theories and potential storylines based on these (often well hidden) clues! Shapeshifter and Qfanny have graciously agreed to set up a single link to the former threads that are available to read (if you have a week or two). You can find it at the following link http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology (but be patient, they will have thread #27 up in good time ) .

The following is a LONG summary (oxymoron?) of some of the clues, thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I have been trying to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled; however, not all clues identified are listed or theories are covered in-depth (remember, I – Zero – am a mere human being with limited human brain capacity, so can only retain so many details).

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings – especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance! We are a friendly – though seriously anal retentive – group! So – dive in, and join the fun!!

Liz is Important – The Liz/Max Connection

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions – or is it time zones? - recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz and felt a special connection to her. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all apparently due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that “connection” irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t let go of the connection. After events in NY, Max seems willing to give their Friendship another try, and in “A Roswell Christmas Carol,” his turning to Liz for help in his time of need, only confirms that even more. As Max says in the end – once Liz has helped him overcome his trial of conscience – he “believes in her!” There is MORE to the Liz/Max connection than just a romantic relationship, as we have always assumed. She is his trusted advisory, his sound of reason, she is the yin to his yang, and she helps him helps him connect to his human side, finding that there is strength in his humanity. BUT - Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions re: that connection have been answered this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Consequence of the Connection – the Change?

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz. We now know from the events in MITC that LIZ WAS CHANGED, and is developing powers, but how come?! How has that change come about? Whether the change in Liz was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Apparently Future Max knew Liz had the potential to “change” since he made the comment that she wasn’t letting it happen, but did he know the true potential of that change and what initiated it or prevented it from occurring? Is Liz’s “change” only a result of Max “bringing her back,” what Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply – or is there something more involved! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squad’s planet (we call Twilo)? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? Could she be the “true bride” – only sent on a different ship to prevent easy discovery, with Tess serving as an unknowing dupe. But if so, and she is part alien, why did she disappear in Wipeout? She did cause the Skin’s shed skin to disintegrate, but that could have other reasons for occurring. Maybe she is purely human, but contains the “true bride’s” essence – but in a different configuration than the Hybrid pod squad?)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” and romanced a predecessor to Liz – but was called back to Twilo, leaving his true love behind.
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz? Could Tess/Ava be a ruse – as mentioned above - to protect the true queen, Liz, from being discovered before she has time to develop her powers that would protect her and her loved ones?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.) However, Liz is Max’s most trusted advisor, and the one most likely to keep him staying the course!
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies, such as the key to operating the Granolith – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her?
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Twilo? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Granolith and the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story? Ava had heard this story foretold during her previous life on Twilo?
· Could it just be Liz's extremely advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the MANY theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special all his human life – and he never connected with Ava the way one would have expected if she was his mate even though they had (we assume) spent their entire life on Earth – in the NYC sewers - together. I guess we will never know unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones (all 5 of them w/ Liz present) – anything is possible? We don’t know what happened to his body!) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her. (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?” [paraphrasing]) Liz looks directly at Max as he gets off the bus, with a sort of recognition. They obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were friends and lab partners more recently. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that we know are all human (according to Harding in WR). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking already – yet dormant – powers existing within her? Ava’s reaction to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle, and all the kids in the hospital? There seems to be more to initiating the “change” than just the healing! Though Kyle may develop his own powers someday, and so could the kids?

Origin of the Connection – Where is Liz from, really?

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins! A few of the common questions raised include:
· Are her parents her “true” birth parents or is Liz adopted like the Evans kids?
· Did Grandma Claudia have a relationship with an alien that passed something on to Liz?
· Does Liz have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race?
· Why does Liz look so much like Sheila Hubble?
· How does all this play into the connection with Max and Liz’s new found “abilities/powers”? (The first known appearing to be astral projection.)
· Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur?

We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) There seems to be many clues that point to this possibility – but nothing definite. We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the Twilo conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. These races could be of common decent, or there could be many variations. We know from White Room that the alien that was studied had a cerebral cortex similar to ours (humans), that did not have a bone structure like ours – thus, the shock that Max did. Could the similarities that the alien had be due to a common ancestor to humans – one that traveled to Earth many years ago either colonizing Earth or intermingling with the humans here. We don’t know for sure that the alien that was studied was a shapeshifter – we just assume it was, but it could have been another alien, different from the shapeshifters, that was on board the ship (or another ship that crashed.) We also know that the Skins (who are NOT Skins on Twilo – only on Earth – so how did Nasedo know what they called themselves?) share powers common to the pod squad whose powers are all human. Does this mean that the beings that are Skins are from the same race of beings that the essences of the podsters are from? Will humans be able to eventually acquire some of these powers?

Rath sarcastically comments about how hard it is to travel through space to Earth – thus the need to possess humans long-distance – but the podsters obviously got here somehow (and fairly quickly if the comments concerning the warring for 50 years is correct - I will explain this if you don’t get what I mean – just ask) – so travel to and from Earth must be possible and not unreasonable. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ Twilo predecessors from long ago? Could Liz and Max have a common ancestor – from long, long ago?

Granolith – How does it fit in?

We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Whitaker and Courtney seemed to think it was a means to their salvation – but why? It is obviously of great importance! Could the Granolith be like a Holy Grail of the V constellation? The Holy Grail was meant to be found by a man with a pure heart who will use it to feed the hungry and heal the sick, and with it will bring peace and happiness to the land. So – whose heart is the purest in Roswell? Could it be Liz? The Granolith could be like Excalibur from the King Arthur tales, to be used as an instrument of the righteous, by a good man for a good cause. So – who fits that description? Max? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? If it is only a transport system, I doubt they would have had such a concerned reaction – so there must be more to the Granolith than that. Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the prophesized protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Liz has yet to see the Granolith. Maybe it will react when she enters it. Maybe Liz holds something within her that is the key to the operation of the Granolith! Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time? Apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way before their discovery? So, many questions – still! … ! The speculation continues!

Destiny – Liz and Max!

Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his original “destiny” on Twilo when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a “human” alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Many posters have wondered “Why?” send the Hybrid pod squad (in duplicate form) to Earth if there wasn’t some benefit. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction. Maybe she had “heard” the prophecy? (I am ignoring the cut scenes that Rooney posted that explained that the Dupe’s shapeshifter had warned that anyone they brought back would be changed, not necessarily for the better, because if it is not aired, it might not be the way the writers/producers have decided to take the show.) Zan’s “searching for someone” that Ava spoke briefly about, also seems to imply that he felt someone special was out there that he was meant to connect with – maybe Liz or Serena – I guess we will never know unless he is “brought back” somehow.

Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the pod squad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are (supposedly) “human” according to Harding. (I’m not going to get into it in this Intro – but the fact that the Skin’s powers are similar to the pod squads’ powers – which are advanced human powers – which are supposed to be similar to the powers they had on Twilo seems to imply that humans must be capable of the these powers someday and have a common ancestor with the Skins and pod squanders in the distant past – Ummm …! ) Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters and her memory retrieval does not seem very complete! (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time!) Though the Dupes do seem to have memories of their past lives – at least Lonnie appears to - we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. Also, are the visions Max’s previous alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone (i.e., Tess, another shapeshifter) or somewhere (i.e., Granolith, Twilo) else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! What else is stored deep within him, and can he get to the point he will be able to freely access and prevent having it MRd out of him?

There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history “destined” to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the small amount of what we know of past podster actions. Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself I MITC - Zan was killed through treachery on Twilo, then New Zan was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max (a Zan Hybrid) survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized, and Max has commented many times: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no?? Maybe they make their own destiny with a little help from their Human Friends.

Follow Your Heart

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons. Grandma Claudia told Liz to promise to always follow her heart wherever it leads her (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again (MITC and ARCC). He has even stated that he believes in Liz, and though this is meant more in a friendly way than a romantic way, it is a sign that Max is following his heart back to her!

Symbolism – Do Not Ignore Anything!

The symbolism throughout the both seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often and everywhere (e.g., Valenti’s front door, Michael’s wallpaper). Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! Liz could be the Trojan Horse in which something of great importance is hidden. There is a prominent picture of a Ship between Max and Maria when they are discussing his love for Liz. The old Scandinavian tale of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his score "The Flying Dutchman," symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love. In desperation the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful. Senta, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears that she will be faithful to the Dutchman unto death. However, in doing so, she betrays her fiancé Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she was trying to save. The Dutchman puts out to sea, but his vessel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned. HOWEVER - the pair are now seen RISING from the now-CALMED waters, TRANSFIGURED and REDEEMED by their SACRIFICE. Salvation is no impossibly idealistic dream, but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. Yvonne “White” was the nurse that disappears in Summer of ’47.

Max lights a “white” pinecone in ARCC. The ancient Greeks and Assyrians viewed the pinecone as a symbol of masculinity because of its phallic shape, and it represented both fertility and immortality. As the emblem of Artemis, it represented feminine purity. It was also the emblem of the Roman goddess Venus. In Christianity, the pinecone forms the crown of the Tree of Life. Because of its swirling form, it is associated with dynamic generative and cosmic power. Here we see Venus is mentioned and also the Tree of Life (remember the women on the reservation told Liz that was what the symbol was on the necklace) also feminine purity seems to play an important role for Liz at this point. (Thanks Evid!) (And this is just the tip of the iceberg!!)

Then there is the Dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. We were in the "year of the dragon." Here are some Dragon “meanings”:
· In the Chinese Horoscope, the Dragon is in the FIFTH ranking order.
· The Dragon's corresponding western sign is ARIES.
· The Dragon’s ruling planet is VENUS.
Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her (unless dragons have been popping up on other characters’ windows?). But since it was the year she discovers that she had “powers,” it is reasonable to think of her as being “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon … as the Dragon. (Thank You Meloudious 1, Starbox and Bluecornmoon, Charmed Kitten for your thoughts on the Dragon!)
Then there is the Arthur C. Clarke book, “Childhood’s End” that is found in _____ (can’t remember the episode – Help?). Following is a summary written by a reader on Amazon – a coincidence? “It is ...in this book the "Overlords" are a mysterious, powerful, but ultimately tragic group of beings that have vastly potent minds, but that cannot undergo the spiritual metamorphosis that would take them into direct communion with the sort of Godhead that directs their (and human) destiny. I liked Clarke's ideas about utopia, which is more or less what the Earth becomes after a few generations under the guidance of the Overlords. He seems to have had a lot of fun playing with ideas about future art forms, for example, among other things. However, this utopian society is doomed, because of an unforeseen, quantum leap in evolution, that turns out to be an evolution of the communal spirit. Clarke has a lot to say here about what connects us to each other, as human beings. Are we all linked with some higher being at the level of spirit, in the manner that islands would be revealed to be all linked, if one were to somehow drain the world's oceans? Or is striving toward a planned, ordered, social utopia, with allowances made for developing all of every individual's gifts to the fullest possible degree, the best way to relate to each other?...” Interesting??

There are lots of other symbols and clues to pick up on! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent and clever for that!

The “Bride” – will the real one please stand up!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? OR could it be referring to Liz who was also standing right there? AND Why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day, and never acknowledged Tess as Max’s mate!) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride with Max in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. (Zan and Ava, who had spent their entire lives together, didn’t seem to be working at producing offspring.) What if Tess was sent to deceive the enemy, and the Real Bride was sent in a separate ship – and somehow the Real Bride’s essence ultimately ended up in Liz.

Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts were needed to defeat the enemy. Maybe Tess is a warrior, led to believe she was the bride, when she really wasn’t. (Bad Boy Harding!!) And why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? Since their shapeshifter seemed to teach them so much, wouldn’t they have known the importance of keeping the unit together? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection previously or at the same time? They never mention seeing a Mom’ogram.) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was the Mom’ogram pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is Twilo still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?) housing the heads of the allied forces?

The Books – Doesn’t anyone read these things?

Concerns similar those raised about the Mom’ogram have been raised about the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? Did the Dupes receive a similar book? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the pod squad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Why does Max have writing on his forehead, but no one else does?

Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there is any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!) READ THE BOOKS! READ THE FILES! ASK MORE QUESTIONS!

The Catalyst – Liz!

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are re-watched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, connecting with Max to save his life in NY and coming up with the idea that helps Max restore his balance in ARCC.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan. (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max “fall out of love with her.”)

Vision Quest – How does Liz fit in?

Liz could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we now know is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment. (Who knows who and what to believe on this one??) Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” or complement Max, and bring him into “balance”? Max seems to believe that Liz is his voice of reason, and knows him better than anyone else – even Iz! (We learn this from the JK and JB commentary on ARCC.) Could Liz possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence (combined with her connection with Max) mean that she has the potential to obtain more of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection, at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing, and how the visions play into the powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “projected” visions from Tess to get Iz’s attention for help). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps!) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions from Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just “now” being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifters, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? The vision seems similar to that Liz gets in SH when she “sees” the orb being buried. Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Could his blurred vision be the result of testing he was subjected to, and the tic tacs pills that he takes to maintain his “balance”?

Time Travel – “Run, Lola, Run”

Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has it come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run” – which was mentioned in Surprise as the story of Liz’s life? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully due to the premature cementing, and the third being the path we are on now!) Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos? OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has from FM concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY, and that warning prevented him from turning it over to the other aliens - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max in particular!) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug Max – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed! Does he really “know” as Kyle seems to think Max always does?

Hero Journey – Liz’s Path

I want to add something about Liz’s hero journey here, but I’m still working on it. So it will have to wait – but trust me – Liz’s appears to be taking that journey!

Grandma Claudia – the first connection?

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her new and married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Perhaps GC helped them when she was younger, and they entrusted valuable information with her just as with River Dog. Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Norma Bates & Tasyfa contributed these thoughts! Soulmates are usually described as people being very alike in feelings and motivation. They work very well together for common goals. They have a connection of purpose and a similarity in thinking. Their skills complement each others so that together they accomplish more and are stronger/better than if they worked individually toward the same goal. But soulmates aren’t necessarily a permanent connection and they could be with several people. However, Lifebonds take "soulmate" one step further. Lifebonds are usually found in telepathic sci-fi (Kathy Tyers' "Firebird" for example) and fantasy genres. Before they can be lifebonded, they must be soulmates first. They are linked together mentally, emotionally and constantly. Lifebonds in fiction are rare and not taken lightly. They are a permanent one on one connection…till death do they part. The creation of a lifebond is a matter of choice. It doesn’t just happen. Authors sometimes use the theory that if a pair decides to lifebond, they spend some time apart first, to strengthen and stretch the bond (to change the bond) and to contemplate on their choice. Both must agree and be fully committed to each other. There is no divorce option except death. Once that is done, the 2 open their connections to each other, mind and soul, to the fullest extent and then “cement” their relationship, making the bond permanent.

The drawbacks to life bonding includes:
· If they are separated from each other, they feel incomplete, not whole.
· Long term separation can lead to mental instability or insanity because one balances the other’s strengths and weaknesses emotionally and physically.
· If one of a bonded pair dies, it can cause a deep depression to the point of suicide. The remaining survivor has trouble adapting and balancing themselves.

Some things that lifebonds aren’t:
· They are not mind reading skills. They send strong impressions or emotions. Right now, if Max and Liz were lifebonded, he would know she was lying but not why unless she told him.
· They are still separate people capable of misunderstandings.
· Lifebonds cause a lot of stress and misunderstanding because they are so close emotionally, they forget to communicate verbally.
· Having secrets between a lifebonded pair causes a lot of frustration and pain between them.

Could what FM is talking about in TEOTW be a hint that, not knowing what they were doing, Liz and Max became life bonded too soon? Liz wasn’t going to change or be able to lifebond to Max without first making a decision that she wanted to go ahead with the relationship. From Destiny until TEOTW she kept herself apart and tried to withdraw, but after seeing Madame Vivian she changed her mind and decided to take a chance…to start changing. Perhaps FM found out that Liz would develop her own powers if they hadn't become lifebonded and solidified the links so early. FM coming back and keeping her separated allowed the connections to grow stronger. Liz needed time to stretch the links, to change both physically and mentally, and taking Isabel's hand in MITC was only the first step of finding out whom she really is and what she can do.

Sheila Hubble – Eerie resemblance to Liz! – What’s the connection?

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the pod squad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with while in Florida?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. So, there is a connection to Liz. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Do you think the writers will introduce a character from Florida named Chad? Ummmmm?

Venus – Liz’s connection to the stars!

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Numbers – It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! TEOTW occurs in 2014! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates? Next time you watch ARCC, notice the house addresses for Brody and the Ghost’s family, and it’s the 23rd Annual celebration. They all add up to 5!

Cave Map Symbols – All signs lead to Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Skins – What lies below the surface?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the pod squad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seemed to be confined to their husks, but they could be from the same race as the pod squad’s alien predecessors. Many of us think that the pod squad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without being noticed? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? How did the Skins – Nicko - find the Dupes? And could some of these earlier alien visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race or groups of aliens on Earth ? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Shapeshifters – Are there more than one?

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same. Maybe Tic Tac was the Dupes’ shapeshifter who came back to Roswell.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Recently with the discovery of Liz’s change, many have wondered why Harding didn’t know about the change and mention it. Especially after reading the cut scenes from MITC. If Ava knew, Harding should have known and mentioned it. Of course, there are the long lingering questions like: Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions, and his apparent failure to divulge information about Liz and the podsters’ origins. Was his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee”? And what did he do for all those years before Tess hatched? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Again, why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? Why did Harding have such a large collection of antiques, which he was so sensitive about? Had he been around when they were original manufactured – years ago? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Odds and Ends

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection. And who could miss Max grabbing Liz’s hand at mid-night mass and telling Liz, “I believe in you!” in ARCC!

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Dates

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across – PM me if you have one. I have added dates from the Crashdown Timeline and the Whitaker Diaries, but they are questionable, and have no basis in episodes aired, so take them with a grain of salt.

1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1935 – Picture of Michael’s DNA donor? (Hybrid Chronicle’s promo)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
7/7/1947 – Privates Timothy Mann and Frank DiMuzio find Privates Bill Fifer and Jim McCarthy dead near crash site.
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
1983 – Michael’s birthday?
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
3 or 5/7/1983 – Tess’s birthday (I see a 5, others see 3?)(Tess, Lies and Videotapes)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1990 – Maria’s Dad leaves (Sexual Healing)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
11/11/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex wind up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max & Liz share their first kiss (Heatwave)
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/5/2000 – Rare alignment of Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Earth’s Moon and the Sun (4everyoung)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed Harding, the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday (Surprise)
12/23/2000 – Max heals kids in Hospital (ARCC)
12/24/2000 – Max attends Midnight Services, expressing his Belief in Liz (ARCC)
1/2001 – The Hybrid Chronicles begin!
2014 – Minutes before the destruction of Earth, Future Liz Convinces Future Max to go back in time and convince Liz to deceive Max into “falling out of love with her” – thus, changing the future (TEOTW)

In Summary

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome.

OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS[b/], but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

[b]Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe!!

Liz and Max as twin souls - notice how they come together to form the
"swirl" on the orb activated during Sexual Healing. Also - notice the
"Emergency" sign behind them - when they come to gether it reads "MERGE".
The animation is from the alternate ending to Leaving Normal and is
complimets of RedHawk (THANKS!!) Also posted is a screencap of the aired
ending of Leaving Normal - here you can see a variation of the orb swirl as
well.

Liz as the keeper of/key to the granolith:
Picture of the granolith chamber in the crashdown:

Liz with the word "CHANGE" behind her - from Leaving Normal. I think the
theme of Liz's "emergence" is central to Roswell - Think of Future Max's
line that Liz needed to let herself change.

Another image of Liz's need to "change" - Liz with a large BUTTERFLY over her mirror. Liz has more butterflies in her room, and a robe with butterflies on it.
Sheila Hubble:

Liz as the Virgin Mary/key to Salvation (::waving to Evid:

The dragon on Liz's window:

Liz as the Trojan Horse (she was avoiding Maria in the Pilot and ate lunch
with Pam TROY). Horses have shown up alot in pictures, etc but here is the
horse that ran in front of Max's jeep in Blood Brothers:

Liz as the Tree of Life and EAGLE imagery - see the tree mural on the wall -
and also the EAGLE figure on the table.

The "destiny" book with the name "LIZ" backwards next to what looks like the
granolith sideways:

Liz and the cave "map" - note the granolith-like symbols near her neck and
towards the top.

Liz and the Childhoods End book:

And because I could not resist:

Images thanks to crashdown, shapeshifter, redhawk and a HUGE thanks to
www.theddd.com who are kind enough to
supply custom screencaps for our gallery.
THANKS!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

StarBox: your take on the fortune teller's prediction in EOTW was outstanding! I'll go with it!

Oraliax1: I thought it was established that the masked man in Valenti's house (Missing) was the FBI guy Topolsky sent (?).

As for Liz and Max's "need" for each other: Venus completed an orbit on February 20th / 21st (SH), next was Gomez' concert: October 25th, next (245 days) will be on June 23rd! It's not time yet!

I must say I'm disappointed about Grant. Historically, all the people who sport an S in their names have been good/helpful to the podsters! I really thought if not good, at least he would only be a non-entity!

Melodius1: I loved your imagination! I guess all of us have formed a similar picture in our minds because, what I thought about what would happen, was that K'var would possess Liz! That way, they would not touch her and Liz would still be Max's worst enemy!! Only time will tell!

Liz first off has to be appart of the mythology, she has changed the future, and has more than once help/kept one or more of them alive, so there for she maybe wasn't a part of the original plan, but is now...sorry if someones already pointed that out

(|)(|)

ANYWAY - in looking up the Senor Chows screencap I cam across this one of Liz's flower delivery:

She didnt get roses (a flower obviously assocaited with Liz) - granted these are from Topolsky (who I personally think was acting as Larek-like "puppet" for someone helpful on Twilo in this episode - how did she know the orbs were COMMUNICATORS? Even Pierce wanted to know how what they did - but I digress) - but I was amazed by their symbolism.
Okay - Liz got a SIX PETALED LILY.

Lily: In plant mythology Lilies are undoubtably associated with VENUS. Their phallic pistils associate them with procreation/fertility. Their SPICY-SWEET scent is similar to many aphrodisiacs (swear to you all - I did NOT make that one up)

Lilies are the flower of love - and an INTENSE love that might be unfulfilled or repressed. The Lily is a foreign counterpart to the LOTUS.

*****The SIX PETALED LILY is identified with the wheel and the SUN (Max)- it is a flower of GLORY and Fruitfulness*******************

The Lily is also a symbol of the BELOVED's CHOICE. (The CHOSEN ONE - if you will)
Like I said - spoooooky.

BTW - KUDOS on the "Eddie where my order" pick-up! I LOVE it!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Zero thank you for the wonderful new thread
~Tas

I don't know if I should continue with this rant (it's just not very mythy); before I'd start I'd like to commend Zero on another great start. btw, I didn't realize the visuals were a reg. thing on this thread now... I think they're a useful addition Starbox, thanks for doing them!

Ok, on to my rant... something else that would compound your above idea bluecornmoon would be all the theories on Liz and Max's possible "lifebond". That they NEED each other (emotionally, physically, etc), not just want to be together because they're in love. They're not "complete" without each other in their lives. HENCE, if Liz does get possessed by Khivar (gets abducted/changed by Khivar, whatever)... going along with the "lifebond" theories, Liz would (probably) STILL need Max. It could be very interesting... an "evil Liz" trying to fight the urge to go to / be with Max (aka "the enemy"). Every pore of her body demanding it. The poor girl could develop multiple personalities ... the "evil" part of her that wants to kill Max (in the name/because of Khivar?) and the other completely in love with him (wanting to sneak into his bedroom in the middle of the night... To get "recharged" ). Yikes.

Ok, enough of my rambling!

Melodious

What if it wasn't an FBI agent, what if it was TicTac???
And speaking of following in Missing, who was that that was following Liz. Certainly not Michael. I don't believe that he would follow her after taking her diary. He's not dumb.

Now how do you explain that?

Starbox: That is a STARGAZER lily. I had them in my wedding. BTW, great info on lilies, one of my favorite flowers.

OK, about the decor at Senor Chow's. I love Mexican food, and I mean love it!! I have eaten in all kinds of Mexican food restaurants from Indianapolis, Indiana to Austin, Texas, and I have yet to see a huge golden Buddha in any of them! Nor have I ever seen pottery with Greek keys and Chinese writing. That is a very interesting pot to say the least, but the last place one would expect to see it would be a Mexican restaurant. Are the flowers in it lotuses? Does anyone know? Starbox, it's so ironic that lilies have a connection to lotuses. I've been wondering what those flowers were since watching TSAP, because I read something significant about lotuses somewhere. I'll have to find it again.

I totally agree the sweet and sour tortilla request of Dan has to be some kind of clue. It was too obvious after the whole Tess and Kyle sweet and sour discussion. They were hilarious in this ep I must admit, even though I don't like Tess. Anyway, maybe Dan is special unit in disguise.

I have mixed feelings about Sean. It's too early to judge, but I do think a jealous Max would be fun to see! It's about time he has someone challenging him for Liz's attention. Liz has had to put up with Tess, it's only fair that Max should get a dose of what that's been like for her. Maybe now he'll get up off his butt and go get his girl!!

MoonMaiden - I love Lilies as well :-) - in fact I have a child named Lily :-) :-).
As for Senor Chows - I think it is supposed to be a ruuning joke. A Mexican/Chinese fusion restaurant. The decor is a mix and the waitresses dress in Mexican garb. They serve things like "Sweet and Sour Tortillas" - perhaps "Moo Goo Gai Pan Tacos" and "Enchillada Egg Rolls" as well. Even the name Senor (Mexican) Chow's (Chinese). It really is a hilarious concept if you think about it - but I think its just supposed to be funny.

Melodious - thanks for the compliment about the images - its mostly for lurkers and new posters and it doesnt take much time at all - just a cut and paste. Its nothing compared to everything Zero does.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Melodius1—I think Kyle’s dream was a foreshadowing by the writers to get Kyle more involved in the story. Buddhist believe in a destiny and if he believes that his destiny is to help Max and the other aliens he will eventually accept it and be part of more of the action. I think it is ingenius of the writer’s to do this. This also includes Liz’s dream. She tries to like “Brad”/Sean but she knows deep down that Max is the only one for her.

Allie0875—I noticed that Buddha’s cell phone sounded like the orb too. I am really confused if the writers want Kyle to change or if they want us to keep guessing. Kyle hearing that beeping is a clue he is changed, don’t you agree?

CharmedKitten—I agree with you! Why can’t the WB keep a character pure? Of course, I think what is going to happen is Liz is going to try to like Sean just because she feels she can’t be with Max. But before anything really happens she is going to realize that she loves Max too much to let him go.

nermal—you are right. The overhead picture of M&L does look like the orb symbol!

quote:Originally posted by bluecornmoon:
As for Liz and Max's "need" for each other: Venus completed an orbit on February 20th / 21st (SH), next was Gomez' concert: October 25th, next (245 days) will be on June 23rd! It's not time yet!
245 days really? Now that is interesting if Venus was coinciding with the Gomez concert. Don't you wish we'd get a new episode on June 23rd. Maybe they'll speed up the time line so that their June 23rd falls on the season finale. Ooooo....

Also - for those of you who dont visit the spoiler board - I have an extremely cute "behind the scenes" story - but Roswell 1 is too mainstream to post it on the board. PM me if you want to hear (its totally NOT-spoilerish)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Does anyone else look at the red picture of L&M dancing/kissing with rose petals all around and see the Whrilpool/wind Galaxy symbol, similar to the end of Leaving Normal that was cut?? I just get all this visual swirling going on even though it isn't moving there. Rewatch the actual scene and tell me what you think. It makes me wonder if TPTB read what we had to say about the cut end of Leaving Normal, and replicated it somewhat in this beginning dream scene for TSAP??

Also - I always thought the shadowy figure in Kyle's house was the FBI guy whose hotel room they later searched. BUT with shapeshifters running around town, you can never be too sure about anyone can you??

The Lily imagery is wonderful, too!

Off for now!
Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe!

I've been away from the boards for quite awhile and have really missed it. Zero, as always your summary was fantastic, and Starbox, I love the pictures you posted.

I just have to say I loved seeing Liz being obsessed with Max. Hey I can identify, thats sort of the way I feel about this show! LOL
I found it interesting that in Liz's dream she, Brad and Max were all dressed in white. I thought of... Yvonne White, white picket fences, and of course white equalling innocence, and being associated with the "good guys". Just thought it was interesting.

When Is and Grant are at the movies we hear someone in the movie saying something to the effect of- Oh God, I can't find my inhaler. I thought this was ironic considering an inhaler helps you breath and the burried girl has oxygen to help her breath. Was this a clue for us?

I couldn't help but think that the Melissa Foster that walked into the sheriffs office might not have been her at all (remember when SS Hank did the same thing?) Maybe she truely is missing as well.

I found the framed collage on Isabel's wall interesting, and my eye seemed to focus on the skull- an odd choice I feel for Isabel to have. Any thoughts on it's potential meaning?

This is bugging me- Why was Dan at the abandoned pump house in Frazier Woods. Did he follow Valenti? It didn't seem as if he knew it was Valenti that was there.

I was glad to see them use the hand connection again, as in when Is takes the kidnapped girls hand and looks into her eye and "sees"her.

When I see the cells they show all I can think of is it looks like we are looking through a honeycmb at spaceships and stars. This has no relevance, just sharing what I see!

Well, I guess those are all my thoughts for tonight.

Starstruck
"I Shall Believe"

i love this thread, and im amazed at how you guys come up with this stuff! it has totally changed the way i watch roswell, just like you said!

StarBox,excellent observations on the meaning of the flowers. I have something to add, which I found rather interesting.

White rose petals (which were falling in Liz's dream) can mean two things: "silence" (we all know she's being pretty silent re:EOTW situation) and "I am worthy of your love." (according to that 19th c. book The Language of Flowers.

Reggie pointed out on Behrall'sthread that the line, "We have to get rid of her," is not in the transcripts. Do you think we could all get together and get this changed. This line is so important to understanding the entire Roswell Mythology canon. And it is said. It's just off screen.

What do you think Liz Mythers?

Thank you for the wonderful intro. Since I consider myself a lurker, I have to say on behalf of all the other lurkers that frequent this board that all your hard work is truly appreciated.

quote:Originally posted by Tasyfa:
I noticed the beeping right away--which is why I was surprised when it was a cell phone, b/c cell phones don't normally sound like that (even with all of the funky rings out there ). Could this mean that Kyle may be receptive to SH-like flashes too? I guess we'll have to wait till he & Tess kiss to find out!

As for Grant, I think there was a deliberate effort to make him look younger (must have used JB's makeup artist ), which would include a school-boy kind of haircut like Alex's.

Tasyfa,

I have to admit that I heard the beeping the second time I watched the episode because I was laughing to hard the first time I saw Kyle's dream! Someone else mentioned that the "phone" looked like the orb, but I don't remember what it looked like so I guess I will just have to watch the episode one more time!!

I am so glad you noticed the Alex and Grant look a like contest. I thought that I was really reaching or just crazy. I was going to post a picture of Alex from the credits and one of Grant in TSAP, but they don't have the screencaps up yet. I just have to say that I love your story "Forging of a Lifebond". I just saw part 6 on Jen's board and can't wait to read it!

Beth

Allie0875—I noticed that Buddha’s cell phone sounded like the orb too. I am really confused if the writers want Kyle to change or if they want us to keep guessing. Kyle hearing that beeping is a clue he is changed, don’t you agree?

[/B]

Yes! I believe that the beeping is a clue that he is changing. For someone that has never heard the orb beeping sound before, it can't just be a coincidence that the "cell phone" in his dreams makes that particular sound. Kyle's dream combined with his new love for Tabasco make a very compelling case!

Beth

I just have to say I loved seeing Liz being obsessed with Max. Hey I can identify, thats sort of the way I feel about this show! LOL

Starstruck
"I Shall Believe"

Hi Starsruck

I am so glad to see someone else say that! It seems like this is the first "real" Liz that I have seen all year, from the way that I interpreted the show last year, the bond was chemical, emotional, physical and even metaphysical. How can you just easily walk away from that? You can't - you become a Maxaholic. (I know the feeling)

I also want to get the RBI's opinion on something. In TSAP, I thought that in one of Izzy's dreams she not only saw the girl being buried and captured, she at one point saw herself in the same scenario. (This is the one where she wakes up screaming Max's name )

From the way that I see it this adds even further to the speculation that she shares some sort of DNA or is someway physically linked with the buried girl. I am interested to see how this linkage of DNA or borrowed cells affects the Max/Liz relationship and the history that has to be there way before the day he stepped off the schoolbus and saw her for the first time.

I can't wait to hear your thoughts!!

Juliet - LOVED the white rose petal imagery :-)

QFanny - June 23rd is the date that Venus will be in alignment again. It happened on the date of Sexual Healing - the date of the Gomez concert and will happen again on June 23rd.

Kyles dream - he also "sees" what looks like the granolith chamber in the background - I dont think he has ever been there.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

The silverhandprint site has been updated.
http://silverhandprint.com

starE: The way that I saw that scene was that because Isabel was so connected with Laurie, either because she shares DNA with her or because Michael does and because of the depth of Laurie's terror, she was being placed in Laurie's shoes, in a matter of speaking. That's what made the scene really awesome and commanding, at least to me, once I disreguarded the other stuff.

But I have to admit. I'm really looking forward to finding out Tess' DNA donor. I can't wait.

StarBox: That was amazing about the lily. I found some other interesting things. The lily is linked to the moon and to water. And it's magical associations are with divine knowledge, breaking love, solving cimes, purity and quests. Hey, this should be our flower. We're solving crimes and on a quest. Okay, bad attempt at humor I know. But hey, I try.

Another interesting tidbit on lilies that really doesn't have to do with Liz's importance but I just had to share cause it's neat. They are used in Asian cultures to flavor chicken, rice, soup, noodles, pork and fish.

I have to go for now, dinner's ready, but I'll be back and post more.

The silverhandprint has the Biographical interviews the kids did during 285S. Zero, the exact date of 285 South is Nov 4th, 1999.

I strongly recommend reading Kyle's take on Max! Actually, they were all funny!

Liz's greatest fear is not being in control. I think we all knew it.

Here's a brief synopsis of "The Bluest Eyes" by Toni Morrison for those of you who don't know it. The synopsis is from Amazon.com.

It is the story of eleven-year-old Pecola Breedlove -- a black girl in America whose love for its blond, blue-eyed children can devastate all others -- who prays for her eyes to turn blue: so that she will be beautiful, so that people will look at her, so that her world will be different. This is the story of the nightmare at the heart of her yearning, and the tragedy of its fulfillment.

I haven't read the story, yet. I plan on borrowing it from the library tomorrow, but my thoughts on just the synopsis? Very symbolic of Liz's thoughts that she is not beautiful, that's she's just a plain Jane.

QFanny: If "We have to get rid of her" becomes part of the script, then its "specialness" would be lost! I thought it was one of those things that are there for us crazy fans to discover and rejoyce in the telling. One of those things that confirm there's something about that girl... If all know about it, then..., what would we do? What? <shudder> I say let the rest of the world wonder. WE KNOW!!!! On the other hand, I think it would be easy to contact the mods at FF and have it added, right? As you well know, I'll help with whatever scheme you come up with!

Max and Liz like the same flavor of ice cream! Vanilla!! Is that sweet or what?

Starbox, thank you for posting the lovely new images ::::sigh:::::
Also, Lilies are associated with funerals too--and spring...kind of like death and rebirth as in the Pilot when Liz mentions it in her journal at the end. But maybe also Topolsky will be "reborn?"

irishka, welcome back!

Qfanny, bluecornmoon, et al: On the Venus alignment: I think maybe the writers are just using a Gregorian calendar and thinking if it happened last year this time, and Valentine's day is the same time, well, it's good enough for Roswell Science!

About the cut Fortune Teller scene: If they had left it in, it would have been kind of trite and cheesy. Without it we Dreamers can have faith: hope in the unseen.

On Senor Chows: Not only is it a Mexican/Chinese themed restaurant, but there's some symbolism here: The 2 ethnic blends are reminiscent of both the podsters hybridness, as well as Max & Liz, Michael & Maria, and Isabel and Alex's (and now Tess & Kyle "I'm an idiot" "but a cute one") mixed relationships. Also, Mexican food is spicy; Chinese is frequently sweet. So, who's running the restaurant? A Shapeshifter? A Skin? A Temp?

On the CHADs thread, aphid suggested that Valenti was targeted because he was a human who knew too much.

Gotta go pick up a daughter. Will share my Roswell moment and link the last thread LATER!

Starstruck: Your back. I was just thinking of you because of the research I was doing on the white rose. I remember you found out that it ment peace.
I'm going to e-mail you soon. Did you get your new computer set up? You spoiled girl.

Here is some interesting info about the white rose.

White Rose - Innocence & Purity, Keep a Secret. Does this sound a lot like Liz?

The rose was created by Aphrodite, Goddess of Love, according to the ancient Greeks. White roses were said to have sprung from the sea foam which surrounded her as she rose up out of the sea.

Romans believed white roses grew where the tears of Venus fell, as she mourned the loss of her beloved Adonis.

Full bloom means: I still love you.
The roses Max gives Liz are in full bloom.

Early Americana is not without its own rose folklore, too. The Cherokee Native Americans tell of a maiden, Nunnshi, who is saved from an enemy attack when she prays for protection. The white Cherokee Rose (Rosa laevigata) grows up around Nunnshi to protect her from being trampled. To this day, white roses are traditionally worn at weddings in the belief they will bring happiness and security.

Max changing red to white might have been for protection plus we have Native American folklore.
I'm sure Max also want's a wedding, happiness and secruity for Liz.

Early Christianity symbolized the Virgin Mary with a white rose.
I saved the best for the last, I now have another connection to the Virgin Mary.

I think we have plenty of connections here that relate to Liz. Aphrodite, Venus and the
Virgin Mary really make you stand up and take notice. Don't you think?

*Evid*

I totally agree the sweet and sour tortilla request of Dan has to be some kind of clue. It was too obvious after the whole Tess and Kyle sweet and sour discussion.

moon maiden- Kyle and Tess were discussing sweet and spicy not sweet and sour.

I know alot of different people are thinking this is some kind of clue but sometimes a line doesn't mean anything, sometimes it is just a line. I think it is just supposed to refer to the Asian/Mexican restaurant.
Sweet and sour=Asian
Tortillas=Mexican

Remember, sweet and spicy =alien thing. Sweet and sour =type of food loved by lots of people including myself.

Zero and Starbox, you both are amazing!!! you have done a good job as always...
Also Bluecornmoon and Lillie, thanks for your comments....

Oraliax1

Shapeshifter - love the symbolism of the Chinese/Mexican fusion. Very Cool.

QFanny - Thanks for updating us on silverhandprint - any sign of the home planets name?????

Evid - Love all the white rose/rose symbolism.

I got a new custom screencap from my GURU from the DDD!- how AWESOME is this image????

Nemo - they also made your screencap of the music stands:

Big Big thanks to www.theddd.com
I am off to add the butterfly to the intro gallery

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Did anyone check out TSAP for the Eddie and Riverdog appearance? It's 27 minutes into the broadcast (including commercials). Isabel is looking at the girls photo, the scene ends and they switch to a new scene at the Crashdown.

Sean is sitting at a booth. Someone walks by briskly and leaves the Crashdown (2 seconds, tops.) Eddie? Now look in the background. Riverdog is sitting at the counter drumming his fingers (uncharacteristic for Riverdog, but bear with me). Right then Maria walks up and says "Dine and Dash and you Die!" to Sean.

If these are Riverdog and Eddie, I think it's interesting what Riverdog is doing - impatiently drumming his fingers on the counter, waiting...

Boredom with the present and impatience for the next thing is a recurring theme in the episode.

1) Is, Max watching tv CRAP, CRAP, trying to find something to occupy their time.

2) Is is so bored she decides to take a walk (dreamwalk)

3) Liz complaining to Maria about being in love with Max but that it's going nowhere. She's stagnated and impatient...

3) Liz saying "Damn it, Eddie, where's my order"...

There are more, I'm sure.

On a tangent, has anyone pondererd the meaning of the title, To Serve and Protect, as it relates to the actual story?

I see anticipation building - something is about to happen.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

[/B]

Starbox...that was the butterfly I was talking about on the last thread!!!! It's HUGE!!! Yay...

{~}:}

For now I will retreat into my Cancerian shell. I humbly apologize for my ignorance.

Later,
N.

It would be interesting if both Isabel and Michael shared the same DNA donors. This would make them human brother and sister instead of the Max/Isabel alien siblings. Which is kind interesting cause maybe this means the aliens had ment to have Tess and Michael have the same human donors. Now this way Michael and Isabel can't be together cause they are really related. So maybe Maria can keep her man.

I'm very excited about all this.

I'm glad that they have given a lot more time to Kyle cause his character makes me laugh. I can't wait to see what kind of power he gets. But what happened to Alex. They said the Colin was getting more air time and that Nick wasn't and they did a switch on us. Is it because Colin was doing a moving. I miss the boy.

anyway over and out. it's been real

I was wondering if anyone noticed in the dream while Liz is kissing Max she placed her hand on the back of his neck. Max was the one who always did this to Liz, but in the dream he has his hands around her waist. Why the change you ask? The hand on the neck symbolizes sacrifice. Max made his sacrifice when he saved Liz and risked his life. Now it's Liz that has made the sacrifice by giving up Max. Now that they have both made their sacrifices they can get back together, right? I know, yes I'm Dreamer.

Evid

I have been away for a few days and just wanted to stop by to read up. As usual you guys are coming up with fantastic clues and theories.

Zero; Starbox great start as usual

We really have some nice plots building. I haven't seen thread 27 after TSAP aired so this may have already been discussed, so I appologize if this is repeating.

It does look as if Sean and Dan and, maybe even, Grant are working together. Obviously there is no love lost between Dan and Valenti. Why was Dan out in the field in the middle of the night? He could have been following Valenti, but his comments lead you to believe that he didn't know that Valenti was there. He wasn't the shooter, because he isn't out of breath when he comes up and the shooter ran off. The shooter could be Sean or Grant. Grant does have the type of bag that Iz saw in her dream.

Iz also saw Grant's face as the one with the girl, but is this a reflection of her mistrust of everyone and thus projecting his face rather than the true face? It was a younger looking Grant. Is Grant being used by the aliens the same as Brody?

Also, in MITC, Max commented in the summit that Nicholas had been to Roswell thus giving away the pods location. So Dan, Sean and Grant could all be being used by the aliens or be shapeshifters. Larek told Max that he had made new enemies at the summit.

It should be very interresting to see how this all plays out. Hopefully into the third season and more....

We create our own destiny.......Max/FMax

OK, noone else has said anything, so I'll give it a try. Remember the whole strawberries mythology thing from last year? Well, Tess was eating a plate of strawberries (with whipped cream, and probably shortcake underneath). A very sweet treat, yes? And she sloshes <ROTFL> hot sauce on it. And then lets Kyle try a bit! He decides it's not bad. Then he asks for some more, and she refuses.

Sounds like he may be sampling something else that's sweet, and spicy!

Or have I become... an idiot!

Now someone said something about not knowing who the shooter was, but I think they made that pretty clear when they should grant's eye. but what I'm curiouse about is that they found his bullets which looked like they went back in his direction, but didn't find any blood or goop (assuming he's aliens). I hope Valenti and the others investigate that area better next week.

And what's up w/bring in sean when we don't even get to see alex. and how sad that Michael was only in one scene towards the end. And an odd scene at that.

Hyper

Zero, Starbox - Excellent as usual.

Starbox, I thoroughly enjoyed the background on Lillies. They're one of my favorite flowers, next to roses. I also agree with you on the spoiler issue. I read them to see what is gonna happen cos I have absolutely NO patience. I also read the last chapter of a book first. It is a inherited foible from my mother, it drives my friends nuts. As you said, tho' knowing what could have happened and didn't is disappointing; ie - Michael&Tess' being siblings, etc. I don't think I'll stop reading them tho', just hoping maybe TPTB will go back and include them someday.

Anyways, I just wanted to put my two cents in, so I'll go back to lurking now.
Thanks for listening,

Tigereyes

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

No StarBox, but I haven't looked today. Thanks for the new screencaps! They are great!

Is everyone serious? Is RiverDog and Eddie in the CD-- now I'm going to have to look.

Oh, I got a letter today from my Aunt. She has started watching Roswell, but she doesn't understand it. She just said that cast was very good looking. I'll have to make her some season one tapes.

Well, I am not Qfanny, but I do know the answer to your question. Some time back, Fehrocious posted some information on the spoiler board about MTD before it aired. Basically, she was telling us the name of the dupes and she told us the name of the home planet. Apparently, it was in the original MTD script (or maybe MITC) but was later cut. She said the name of the home planet was Antar. TPTB may have decided to change it since then, but that was the info we were given at the time.

moon maiden- I did not mean to imply that you were ignorant, I was simply trying to correct you on your mistake (and it is an easy mistake to make). The other comments later in the post were more meant for everybody, not you specifically. I love to look for symbolism too, I just meant that not everything is symbolic. But, if I am wrong and Dan is an alien, then I will happily eat my words.

Now for a little note (and I want to publically blame my HUSBAND for noticing this) - you know there was some discussion on signs and symbols about how Max putting his "mark" (silver handprint) on Liz had sexual overtones. Well - when she looks at herself in the mirror - check out the design of the mirror itself.

OH MY GOSH!!!!!!!!!!!! - ITS A HUGE PHALLIC SYMBOL!!!!!!!RUN FOR COVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(thanks hubby for pointing that out - it really adds to my enjoyment of the episode <sigh> ). I swear - someone could write a THESIS on the meaning and subtext. I can see it now "And here is Liz as the Virgin Mary figure gazing at her reflection in an enormous phallic mirror"
Luckily for Liz - they got rid of the hideous
giant-you-know-what in her room and gave her a nice NORMAL mirror after this episode.

BTW - look at the hats hanging on the NORMAL mirror - are they the same ones from sexual Healing.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

She actually pasted Liz next to Max.

And she actually mentions her protector.

Someone must of had fun with this. Thank you.

'Antar, Romance of

tales of chivalry centred on the black Arab desert poet and warrior 'Antarah ibn Shaddad, one of the poets of the celebrated pre-Islamic collection Al-Mu'allaqat. It was composed anonymously between the 8th and the 12th century, though the Romance itself credits the 9th-century philologist al-Asma'i with its authorship. Written in rhymed prose (saj') interspersed with 10,000 poetic verses, it is commonly divided into 32 books, each leaving the conclusion of a tale in suspense. The Romance relates the fabulous childhood of 'Antar, son of an Arab king by a black slave girl, hence regarded as a bastard by his people, and the adventures he undertakes to attain the hand of his cousin 'Ablah in marriage. These take him beyond Arabia and his own time period to Iraq, Iran, Syria, Spain, North Africa, Egypt, Constantinople, Rome, and the Sudan; they bring him in contact with a Byzantine emperor and with Frankish, Spanish, and Roman kings. Though childless by 'Ablah, 'Antar fathers several children, including two crusaders, Ghadanfar (by the sister of the king of Rome) and Jufran (by a Frankish princess).

The Romance of 'Antar evolved out of a Bedouin tradition that stressed nobility of character and desert chivalry and of which 'Antar was made the epitome. With the advent of Islam, it assumed a new outlook that reinterpreted 'Antar as a precursor of the new religion. A strong Persian hand in the later authorship of the Romance--demonstrated by the detailed knowledge of Persian history and court life--then shows 'Antar in Iran.
The Romance finally incorporated European elements encountered among the crusaders.

This one-the flaming symbol from Blind Date- is labeled "Antar"

And these 3 have yet to be labeled:



any ideas? I can't even speculate!

Can anyone see what it says beteen Max and Tess? I can make out "marriage" but I cant see what else it says.

QFanny - any comment about the fact that she put "replica" above the dupes and "reproduction" above the podsters???

Juliet - I think the cross/squre symbol is going to be about the FIFTH Element.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Sounds familiar doesn't it?

Hi Q!

Where? Are you meaning that it is like saying - Boy meets Alien? I know how you would hate that!! Please tell me if you are thinking something different.

I also cannot make out what is says between Max and Tess. Anyone else???

How exciting New fodder to feed my obsession!!

Yes, that's what I'm saying! I feel like I've been sucked into a black hole here. Somebody please go look at this again and see if you agree!!!!!! Warning, it goes by fast! It's 27 minutes into the program, including commercials. Go find it!!!!!!!

If this turns out to be right, all the credit goes to Evid, who pointed out Liz said "Where's my damned order" in the first place. Her interpretation made me go back and have a second look.

Signed,
Zara the non-visual, who dislikes spoilers in the worst way but loves the Liz Myth board, so don't get her wrong...

One thing I noticed - Isabel drew a large diamond on Liz's survey form. Ava put an almost identical large diamond on her collage with the word "granolith". Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Fun Fun Fun - why couldnt they have given us this stuff during the new episode drought????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Those collages are really cool. I'm gonna see what else I can figure out from there!

One thing I noticed - Isabel drew a large diamond on Liz's survey form. Ava put an almost identical large diamond on her collage with the word "granolith".

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I'm also loving the info on Silverhandprint... they're really giving a shout-out to us insane, obsessed 'net fans, aren't they?

So it seems Ava knows what the Granilith looks like. Was she told or does she just remember from the past life? Lonnie remembered the past, and it's presumed the other Dupes did too... so I don't know why I'm intrigued by this. Oh well

Also, in between Zan & Ava, there is a big, bold "Married". Were Zan & Ava married both on Antar and Earth? Or just Antar... or just Earth?? We often speculated that protoKing and Young Bride never made it past the "I dos" because they were slaughtered before that. However, if Ava meant "Married" as in 'past life' that would presumedly mean the DID make it past the ceremony etc. Unless she and Zan were husband/wife on Earth? Although I think Zan/Ava might have been diddling, I really don't think they were married. I assume Ava means her life with Zan on Antar, but that's just speculation. ugh, I'm confusing myself.

Editing this because I just notice in the NY podsters collage... to the right of Zan, there's the line, "Who's cheating now?" What did Ava mean by this... was Zan (her husband?) cheating on her? If so, with whom? Or is it just referencing the Dupes "cheating" amongst each other (deception, lies, desention, etc)?

Melodious

Evid

I couldn't make them out either star, so I attempted to zoom in and enhance the pic with PSP. I think I did more harm then good, but here's what I came up with...

Here's one slightly smaller (a little clearer?)

Now on the right it definitely says "Marriage", but on the left... I don't know, to me it looks like it says "Love Has Past" (?). What do y'all think?

Melodious

images borrowed from Silverhandprint.com

On the pic of Antar there were five stars- two pairs and one large star that was different from the others (symbollic of Liz and the podsters?)

In big words there was "sum of parts" but the m was partly cut out- reading "sun of parts." Sun being Max's symbol

I was so glad that Liz was in the page. I took the "?" after "Boy Meets Girl" to mean that Ava wrote this before she knew the extent of their relationship. Meaning (I hope) that the dupes were keeping tabs on Liz before they came to Roswell.

Finally I took the replica/reproduction as a reference to the true royal four and their backups. This Liz mythology is fun

Where? Are you meaning that it is like saying - Boy meets Alien? I know how you would hate that!! Please tell me if you are thinking something different.

Well, the sentence says, "Boy meets girl?" And it looks like Ava clipped out the entire sentence from a magazine article. Is the question she is asking "Boy meets girl" like, has Max met Liz yet? Or is the question she is asking, Boy (Max) meets "girl?" Which I don't think as you state. I thought that it was funny that Ava didn't correct the sentence to say, ' "Boy"? meets girl '.

Did Ava do this journal before or after going to Roswell? I think after, but the Dupes did have pictures of the Royal Four. Lonnie did have a yearbook. Perhaps, their protector told them about Liz. They were awfully up to speed about Roswell. They had to have some inside information. If Ava made the journal before going to Roswell, then the sentence , '"Boy meets girl?"' would mean, "Has Max met Liz?" If Ava knew about Liz, then this supports the prophecy theory. If Ava made the book after visiting Roswell, then the question mark could ephasize 'girl' or 'boy'. If she meant girl, then she could be refering to Liz's altered status. If she means boy, then she is refering to Max's non-human status. I just thought it was interesting punctuation more than anything else.

Also, who was it that asked my about reproduction and replica. I consider replica a stationary word (having no action) and reproduction a transition word (having action). Interesting that the dupes were replicas and the Royal Four were reproductions.

RATH: Like to bring us home.

Now.. the word AGAIN.. this means they were here once all ready.. in person.. well in Alien... Just thought it was an interesting line..
There is also a horse on Liz's dresser in Missing. You can see it just before Max picks up the CD and sees Kyal.
Also on Ava's whatever that is.. By Liz and Max it says familiar faces.. hmmmmmmm

Lonnie------Zan

Rath--------Ava

As you can see Lonnie and Ava are cress cross from each other and Zan and Rath are also. Female, Female and Male, Male.

Max--------Isabel

Michael----Tess

Now we have Max and Tess, who are cress cross from each other, and Isabel and Michael are also. Now we have Male, Female and Male, Female.

You would think if they were all suppose to mate that the pods would be arranged in the same order. This makes me think they were paired for battle. It makes sence if the females have stronger mental powers and the males have stronger physical, this keeps them balanced.

As for the Dupes we didn't really see much of their powers but my guess is that Lonnie and Rath had physical powers and Zan and Ava had mental powers. This might be the reason they are placed differently. Not for mating but for balance in battle.

I hope that makes sence. I really think Tess or Nasedo, or both had been lying when they said the order was for mating. I think Ava is telling the truth, why would she lie?

Nasedo and Tess would have more control if Tess mated with the King. What was it that Liz said about Tess? Oh yeah, "I don't trust her." Tess might not be aware that Nasedo made this up, but I can't shake the feeling that she is still up to no good, no matter how funny she is with Kyle.

Evid

So, don't Tess and Max have to be married in order for her to have been Queen??

Well, it's done on a Crashdown menu, so you kind of have to assume she did it while she was staying with Liz.

TPTB are playing with our heads -- I like that!

Might I suggest we head for Nebraska's state capital, in my hometown of Lincoln.
Oh wait, that might not solve this problem.

courtesy of my taxes.gov

I just want to point out that I live in the shadow of the world's largest PHALLIC symbol. Complete with golden tip and seed sower statue on top!

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But if you PM me, I'll tell what Lincoln's unofficial nickname is too.

Lonnie------Zan

Rath--------Ava

As you can see Lonnie and Ava are cress cross from each other and Zan and Rath are also. Female, Female and Male, Male.

Max--------Isabel

Michael----Tess

Now we have Max and Tess, who are cress cross from each other, and Isabel and Michael are also. Now we have Male, Female and Male, Female.

You would think if they were all suppose to mate that the pods would be arranged in the same order. This makes me think they were paired for battle. It makes sence if the females have stronger mental powers and the males have stronger physical, this keeps them balanced.

As for the Dupes we didn't really see much of their powers but my guess is that Lonnie and Rath had physical powers and Zan and Ava had mental powers. This might be the reason they are placed differently. Not for mating but for balance in battle.

I hope that makes sence. I really think Tess or Nasedo, or both had been lying when they said the order was for mating. I think Ava is telling the truth, why would she lie?

Nasedo and Tess would have more control if Tess mated with the King. What was it that Liz said about Tess? Oh yeah, "I don't trust her." Tess might not be aware that Nasedo made this up, but I can't shake the feeling that she is still up to no good, no matter how funny she is with Kyle.

Evid

I believe that the 4 squares are mirror images of each other.

I just looked up the meanings of the words reproduction and replica.

Reproduction: something made by reproducing; and original copy;duplicate the natural process among organiams by which new individuals are generated & species perpetuate

Replica: a copy or reproduction of a work or art produced by the maker of the original or under his or her supervision; any close or exact copy or reproduction.

So the Royal 4 are necessary to perpetuate their race? Are they the only ones that can reproduce? And the Dupes are only a copy?

added on a burst of inspiration The placement of our four is different from the way they were presented with Tess' visions. Tess' was on the bottom but where Michael's shown on the list.

Scrapbook Tess' visions
Max-Isabel ?-?
Michael-Tess Tess-?

I don't remember where she had placed them. Does anyone else? Oh and Tess' book had them like this
Michael-Isabel

Any thoughts on the difference of the placements? Which is right?
Tess-Max

Hello Antar: I hope you don't have walnuts.

I think the post shapeshifter made would be great to repost right now on the history of Twilo: Since we are going to say goodbye to it? :sob:

I'm back. (Do I ever leave???)

Anyway, I saw an article over on crashdown.com that is a must read. It is a spoof on Max, Michael, and Liz. Get this, Liz is called WHIZ and she solves a math problem for SMAX and MY-CALL. So we are not the only people that notice Liz is the key to everything. She is the one the initiates action and solves problems.

Here's a screencap from the article.

courtesy of crashdown.com

First of all, I think IT is settled (how did we ever let Lonnie dupe us?), OUR podsters are Les Originales: --from http://www.silverhandprint.com/antar/antar2.html

Now, Qfanny, truly those are crocodile tears for Twilo? Juliet's post on Antar clearly makes it more appropriate than Twilo. But maybe we will still revert to calling it Twilo when the situation warrants.

Hyper ! You have shapeshifted into a...a-a-D-O-G!!!

Juliet, I'm pretty sure it's supposed to read: "loved to die for." Maybe Ava on Antar died for Zan?

Reg--Good catch on the strawberries. Boy am I glad she shared them with Kyle & not Max!

Evid, thanks for the white rose post. Does anyone want to pull up some red rose stuff? I think it would be significant too.

4everyoung, Grant as a Temp would explain why Max seemed to think he was innocent after they searched his place in Surprise.

I just want to point out that I live in the shadow of the world's largest PHALLIC symbol. Complete with golden tip and seed sower statue on top!

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But if you PM me, I'll tell what Lincoln's unofficial nickname is too.

Been there and I know what it is, heh heh.

We create our own destiny.... Max/FMax

Or
"Loved to die for"

or

"To die for (be)loved"

"loved" is above and to the right of "die" in "to die for"

Gosh - I have meetings straight for two days, and come back to 3 new pages and LOTS of new stuff at the silverhandprint site! I haven't gotten over there - YET - but as a former Math major, the following 2 things jumped out at me on the collage.

1 - The "surviviors" is over a picture of items set in the sand going off into the distance. Does this represent previous aliens visiting the Earth into the distant past??

2 - Above the picture of the circles with the pods in them is ">>>8" - in Math, this is a sign of "greater than" which plays into some of the theories that say there are more Hybrids out there (maybe not clones of the podsters, but other Hybrids).

Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe!

It's not necessarily the fellow who played River Dog, but I think the elderly NA at the counter and the guy walking by are supposed to be RD & Eddie.

INCREDIBLE catch on Roverdog and Eddie you guys - and Zara I loved your post on "waiting" imagaes in TSAP - I havent rewatched yet but hopefully tonight. Wooo-Hooo- the Native American connection may be coming back!

Thanks to whoever posted the definitions of replica and reproduction - I wasnt sure but I thought that they would fit perfectly with QFanny's idea about the "creation" process of the podsters.

QFanny - I am cracking up about your capital - LOVE the seed-sower touch.

Melodious - it looks to me like it says "LOVE HAS PAST MARRIAGE" - I can clearly make out PAST and MARRIAGE

If Ava and Zan were killed on their wedding day - they still could have been married - it just depends on when the murder took place.
Also Ava could have been a queen BEFORE she married Zan - especially if it ws a political union. I would love it if one of the ruling planets was a female-dominated planet - I think it would be an interesting plot addition.

In the menu picture - it looks like Ava has written "2+3=5" after the word escape.
Any thoughts????

Okay - look at the collage of the dupes - in the two foursquare ymbols (one pointing to the dupes and one for the royals) - Ava has BLACKED OUT the inside of one of the royal's pods. Looks like they royals were the batch with the lost/damaged pod. She switches around her placement of the royals in the pods in every picture - so I dont think we can guess who it is from her artwork - but one of them is definately blacked out.....

I am going to add the second collage in its entierty so we can analyze without having to flip back and forth.

Images courtesy of www.silverhandprint.com - reproduced here for obsessive analyzation only - no infringement intended.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Hmmmm....

Hmmmm....

Maybe because he "turned" on Zan?? BTW - between Rath and Lonnie - it looks to me like it says "nupital attraction".
One thing I am suprised by is how sure Ava seems to be that Isabel is going to be "just like Lonnie/Vilandra" - which brings us to the question - WHY would mom duplicate and send the betrayer to earth???????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

StarBox, I definitely see how Ava could've written 2+3=5 on the menu and then scratched thru it! how exciting!!

On the collage of our podsters, who is the "protector" or "guard" alluded to in the top right hand corner, and why is there a line connecting him/her to Isabel?

Just checked out the pages on silverhandprint: this is great!!!

Starbox Maybe the box was to small to make a complete comma and that's why it looks blacked out. On the pods that were drawn on the other pages, everyone's were drawn without being blacked out. However if she's showing that that pod was the leaking pod, I'm thinking it was Max. If you look at the picture set up throughout the scapbook it's set up as follows

Max-----------Izzy

Michael-----------Tess

The pod that was blacked out on that page is Max's. Even with Ava changing the positions of where she drew the pods on each page. It still remains the same. That pod continues to be Max's.

Boy Meets Girl? comment I think might be her referring to who is Liz and how does she fit into the "destiny" thing considering Max risked everything to save her life. And how much they obviously love each other.

Did anyone else notice that when Ava referred to the Shapeshifter protector on both the royals and the dupes page, it always seemed to connect back to Lonnie & Isabel. Notice the dashes that connect from the references to the protector to Lonnie and Isabel. How are they connected??? Also on the Royals page there are dashes going from the tidal wave of deceit to the references to the shapeshifter. This quote also has dashes connecting to the words home= Roswell, New Mexico What does this all mean?? Does anyone have any thoughts??

Max-----------Izzy

Michael-----------Tess

The pod that was blacked out on that page is Max's. Even with Ava changing the positions of where she drew the pods on each page. It still remains the same. That pod continues to be Max's.

*********************************************

Actually - rotate the picture so that the pod chambers are side to side instead of on top of each other (in other words - read them as if you turned to paper so that the right side was the top of the page). I believe that is the correct orientation of the pods (side-to side) - in which case the affected pod is TESS or MICHAEL. Did that make sense at all???? You kind of have to twist your head to see the orientation.
What I am saying is that Ava "turned" the pods sideways to have the dupes pointing at the picture. And if you look, there IS a "comma" in the pod - it is blacked out over the top of the comma - so I think the blacking out is an intentional clue - not a mistake (I also think she didnt black out a pod in each of the pictures because that would be a little TOO obvious). I also think the orientaion of the pods is intentionally vauge. It COULD be any one of them - although Max does have the royal seal on his brain - so we know he is really the king) - what I think is significant is that the royals were the ones with the leaky pod.

********************************************

Did anyone else notice that when Ava referred to the Shapeshifter protector on both the royals and the dupes page, it always seemed to connect back to Lonnie & Isabel. Notice the dashes that connect from the references to the protector to Lonnie and Isabel. How are they connected???

********************************************
REALLY interesting observation Dayneen and Juliet - perhaps the "protector" was sent - not by mom - but by Khivar - to protect Vilandra.
It would make sense.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I think when Ava put in the Boy meets Girl? She is saying that she needs to ask Liz this question."So, how did you and Max meet?" Why does she need to know? She might have senced that their was something different about Liz. I think she knows a lot more then she has let on. That stunned look was not just because Liz was changed. I think she might be the one who helps Liz find out her place in all of this. TPTB bring back Ava, please.

Evid

Trillian, you're right- the pod positions are mirror images of eachother.

I saw TSAP again last night (Starbox it was very noticeable, that tidbit you gave me!) and I noticed:

There is a picture of either a butterfly or a dragonfly on a pad of paper next to Isabel when she first decides to dream walk.

When Iz and Max are watching TV there is a western on with 1 man in front and 3 in the back, all on horses.

When Grant is watching TV there is a clip of 4 jets flying by on the screen.

Be back in a little while.

Zero, Starbox, Qfanny, you guys are incredible. I never cease to be amazed at the topics discussed on this thread.

Oh and Starbox, any time you want to discuss spoilers....I am here for you. We spoiler readers need to stick together.

Have a great weekend everyone,
Tigereyes

[b]Trillian, you're right- the pod positions are mirror images of eachother.

[/B]
_____________________

Wow, this is really cool.

Can't remember who said it about the one pod being blacked out. Couldn't this be Zan since he died?

Any speculations on what this could represent?

Remember the movie the Fifth Element?

DeeDee

I told you guys, she's important!!!! Bring back Ava please

Ava the Alley Cat has spoken!!! I am so excited that TPTP are finally listening to us!!!

I'm telling you guys, I really believe that Ava should be Liz's protector

Just throwing this out there -- However, I much prefer the 2+3=5 idea!

What an exciting time for the mythologists!

Red roses stand for true love, respect, courage, passion, and congratulations. The red rose is the flower of Eros (aka Cupid), the beloved of Aphrodite (aka Venus).

Red and white roses together represent unity. White roses with red tips also represent unity.

Also, to add to Evid's great info on white roses:

White roses represent purity, heavenly things, secrecy, silence, innocence and charm, reverence and humility, as well as spiritual and true love. The messages associated with sending white roses are, "I am worthy of you", or "You're heavenly".

And for Starbox, some additional info on lilies:

Legend tells that the lily sprang from Eve's tears, when upon being expelled from Eden she learned she was pregnant. (More pregnancy hints here, but wait, there's more .)

In China, the lily is the symbol of motherhood.

In ancient Greek and Roman marriage ceremonies, lilies, symbols of purity and innocence, along with wheat, the symbol of fertility, were placed on the bride's crown.

In Christian symbolism the lily represents purity, chastity, and innocence, and is the symbol of resurrection and Easter. The white lily is also associated with the Virgin Mary, for Christian lore tells that the lily had been yellow until the day the Virgin Mary stopped to pick it.

As for the lotus:

The lotus is an oriental water lily which symbolizes estranged love.

In ancient Egypt, lotus flowers were the symbol of the sun, creation and rebirth.

Here again are more examples of symbolism linking Liz to the Virgin Mary and Venus, as well as rebirth or resurrection. Hope this helps to add to the Liz's myth cause!!

Thank you so much. I was looking at the wrong page.

Quick question: Where is the 2+3=5 on the collage?? I'm missing it.

I read a couple of the "interview forms" on Silverhandprint, and Liz has great taste in movies, authors and ice cream!!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe!

3-D visualization - it's a guy thing.

Also, I don't know about her picture of the granilith. How does she know what it looks like? None of the original four knew what it looked like until they saw it. Maybe Ava just remembers what it looks like since the dupes have a lot more memories of their past or maybe there's more to it.

Another thing that might have more significance than it seems is the whole original vs. dupes factor. Ava seems to dwell on it a whole lot--l'original, reproduction vs. replica. Maybe there's more to being a dupe than just being the practice clones.

Sorry there's not much Liz stuff in here but in the end doesn't it all relate to Liz anyway.

Hello Antar: I hope you don't have walnuts.

I think the post shapeshifter made would be great to repost right now on the history of Twilo: Since we are going to say goodbye to it? :sob:

Unless/until TPTB announce that silverhandprint.com is authoritative, I'm reserving judgement on "Antar". It's only cannonical when it's on the show, or announced by the producers. Anonymous products on unofficial websites are apocryphal. IMHO, of course.

This is your brain:
This is your brain on fanfic:
This is your brain on spoilers:

Any questions?

Also, by Khivar's name there is a picture of a devil that seems to be sitting on the sun with his head illuminated by the moon. We often connect the sun with Max, and the moon with Tess. What could this picture mean??

Now for a little note (and I want to publically blame my HUSBAND for noticing this) - you know there was some discussion on signs and symbols about how Max putting his "mark" (silver handprint) on Liz had sexual overtones. Well - when she looks at herself in the mirror - check out the design of the mirror itself.

OH MY GOSH!!!!!!!!!!!! - ITS A HUGE PHALLIC SYMBOL!!!!!!!RUN FOR COVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(thanks hubby for pointing that out - it really adds to my enjoyment of the episode <sigh> ). I swear - someone could write a THESIS on the meaning and subtext. I can see it now "And here is Liz as the Virgin Mary figure gazing at her reflection in an enormous phallic mirror"
Luckily for Liz - they got rid of the hideous
giant-you-know-what in her room and gave her a nice NORMAL mirror after this episode.

BTW - look at the hats hanging on the NORMAL mirror - are they the same ones from sexual Healing.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox, I don't know if I'll ever be able to stop laughing!

Someone mentioned on another board that when Ava wrote under Tess "In a past life, I was Queen" that might had been a quote that she wrote, you know as if Tess had said that herself.

This is significant because if Tess was really the "Queen", then why didn't she give her a title like Isabel and Michael??? Or was that just a funny quote from her like the one she gave Max, "I a King man, I'm King" Or something like that. What are you thoughts

Someone mentioned on another board that when Ava wrote under Tess "In a past life, I was Queen" that might had been a quote that she wrote, you know as if Tess had said that herself.

This is significant because if Tess was really the "Queen", then why didn't she give her a title like Isabel and Michael??? Or was that just a funny quote from her like the one she gave Max, "I a King man, I'm King" Or something like that. What are you thoughts

Unless/until TPTB announce that silverhandprint.com is authoritative, I'm reserving judgement on "Antar". It's only cannonical when it's on the show, or announced by the producers. Anonymous products on unofficial websites are apocryphal. IMHO, of course.

Reggie, this is from the Jason Katims' chat with the WB on 12/18/00:

Is the information given on the website at www.silverhandprint.com considered to be part of the canon of Roswell, or should we just draw our conclusions from what we've seen on the show?

Jason: Good question.. All of the information on the website comes from the episodes themselves and information received from myself and the rest of the writing staff.

Jason: While I haven't been able to cull through every piece of information put out there, it should serve as an accurate appendix to the show.

Jason: For example, we'll be revealing the homeworld planet's name on silverhandprint.com probably next week.

Reggie- I think silverhandprint.com falls into the category of "clues" instead of "spoilers". And as Alienmom posted - JK himself said the site is official. :-)

Zero - the 2+3=5 thing is on the crashdown menu under the word "escape" - it is written in that blacka nd red Ava scratch/writing. I may be wrong - but it looks like 2+3=5 - its definately a 2 3 and 5.

The blacked out pod - it cant be Zan because it is on the royals symbol.

Also - notice on the fourth collage it says "lies are the bricks" - and Max is shown with a background of BRICKS. Then the "Its a terrible thing to not know" quote - could Ava be implying that Max has been lied to??? (something I have suspected ever sense to so-called "helpful" aliens started feeding him propoganda about his past life)

Interesting stuff.

About the profiles (how cute is Kyles BTW) - Liz said she identified with Jane Austen.
I looked up Jane Austen today and basically - she kept her private life very secret. Some things known about her:
* While young, she was in love with a young man who died. That seems to be the only romantic relationship she had.
* She was extremely close to her sister throughout her life.
* She never considered herself to be a gifted writer - although many have considered her to be one of the truly great writers of all time.

Also - "The Bluest Eye" and "Little Women" are REALLY an odd combination. I think "The Bluest Eye" could definately hint towards an alien connection.

Isabels favorite book - Franny and Zooey - is about a girl (Franny) who has a mental breakdown trying to find some sort of spiritual meaning and her brother (Zooey) is the one that kind of snaps her out of it in the end. It is about the Glass family - whom Salinger wrote about in another shrt novel and short story. Interestingly - it is an extremely ANTI - Buddhist work. The Glass kids are all affected by their eldest brother's attraction to Buddhism. He commits suicide. The rest of the kids are mentally stable or unstable in direct proportion to how much the embrace or reject Buddhism. Seymour, Buddy and Franny are the most messed up and Zooey and the older sister (whose name escapes me - I think its Boo-Boo) are the most stable.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Yeah, I noticed: I went back over to check out the alignments of the pods, with your black out scenario and everything is gone!!! What's up with that??? Like you said hmmmmmm

Bring Back The Heart of Roswell

And notice in the 2 Starbox posted that Tess's facial expression fits much more with the Dupes while Ava actually looks like she belongs with the Originals!

If anyone connected to TPTB is checking this thread & how bonkers we're going over the collages, they must be ROTFLOL!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe!

I never thought of that Zero! Wow! That's a terrific clue!

I think this would fit very nicely into my theory. SF thought that my theory worked because my comparison is to a video editing process, something that television producers/writers should know a little bit about. (Sorry to end my sentence with a preposition. I don't know what I think with.)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

StarBox:

I think that the whole Destiny plan was put into place before Vilondra's betrayal. It could be standard process to donate "essense" while living. Much like some people will donate their blood to be given back to them during operations. The fact that the proto-Royals were so important would warrant such extreme measures.

If it wasn't for that reason, then Mom et al were in on the Destiny plan, which brings up a lot of other scary thoughts that I will not get into right now.

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter
Notice that when they are side-to-side/mirrored, Liz is in the central position!

shapeshifter, your eye for detail is amazing! I wonder if the mirror image means that the biological relationship between the dupes and royals is akin to mirror twins? The Olsen twins are mirror twins. Not only that, they are not identical twins. So the fact that the podsters seem to be mirrors of each other doesn't mean they are identical to one another.

I also think Liz's pie chart from Monsters would look good in Ava's journal.

Anyone pick up on the fact the both Ava and Liz keep journals?

What do you think?

Take another look at and read the diagonals that cut through the "Guilty" Vilondra; they say: "who's cheating whom? - and lies are the bricks - loved to die for" with "Cruel King Kvar - Stolen Crown" at the end of the diagonal. I think this means Lonnie thought she was cheating her extended family to get to be with Kvar, her love, but Kvar just used her and cheated on her, putting her to death.
I am thinking too that the Evils hitched a ride on the Royal space ship much like the Evil "Bounty Hunters" hitched a ride with Alex in the books. Someone (sorry, can't find who) mentioned that the Protectors are attached with red lines to Michael & Is, and to Lonnie & Rath, and that this might indicate that Nasedo and the NY Protector (Nicko?) are Enemies, and thus the whole Destiny/Mommogram is (as we often wondered) bogus. This would all point back to Michael's line in SH: Maybe that's how we're supposed to find out about ourselves--by connecting with humans.

Max-------Isabel
Michael-----Tess

But according to the visions (could've been Tess a visions??)and the destiny book in FS the royals were aligned this way

Michael-------Isabel
Tess--------Max

Interesting how the only person that remains in the same position is Isabel???? Any thoughts??

I know that some have speculated that on the first page of the menu Ava writes 2+3=5 after the word escaped but to me it almost looks like it says 2 sets. The first letter is obviously a 2 then theres a space (well sort of, she marks there with her red marker and it looks funny over the top of the dashes on the menu) the next letter I can't tell what it is. It looks like a 2, but it's written differently from the previous 2 (maybe whomever did this to throw us off from the 2+3=5 ??)which makes me think it's not a 2. Then right after that, what sort of looks like an equal sign, if you look closer, is actually an E. Then the next letter is a t and what appears to be a 5 is actually an S.

Did anyone notice the pasted phrases Split decisions and someone else's genes Could this meant that different dna was used for the dupes than what was used for the podsters. Are the royals alien essence really the essence of the Royal 4 from Antar?? Or could the Split decisions have meant that the persons that orchestrated this whole "destiny" plan couldn't agree on how the plan would be implemented???

Anyone notice the 4 stars coming from the reference to the protector on the dupes page? The stars are pointing towards Lonnie or maybe they are meant to be pointing towards all the dupes. Did anyone have any comments on this??

Bring Back The Heart of Roswell

Great discussion.

I was wondering, does anyone have an idea on why Ava put the Roswell podsters in different positions each time, and still not in the way we've seen them.

First time, when she wrote out the names she put them like this:

Max Isabel

Michael Tess

Then when she put their pictures in she put them like this:

Max Isabel

Tess Michael

But I'm almost positive that they are in the book and shown in the pods like this:

Michael Isabel

Tess Max

As seen in the book

and in the epi

Do you think Ava was just guessing on their positions or is something else up?

Also, someone asked a few pages back about the words Replica and Reproduction on the sides by the names of both sets of podsters on the first page? Now, to me Replica infers a direct copy, a duplicate, or clone of an original, whereas Reproduction infers a combination of two parts to make a new part with traits from both "parents." What does everyone think?

You guys rock!

I Shall Believe.
And when I can no longer believe, I mail rotten meat.

Ash

I have no idea what the blacked out stuff is but I am pretty sure that the words say Our Crib.

In Ava's scrapbook, she shows their protector as a dark figure heading towards the light. And Nasedo is shown as a light figure heading towards a sunset.

Maybe this is just symbolism showing Nasedo dying leaving their group. And maybe the dupe protector is about to rejoin them.

Or maybe the light/dark symbolism has to do more with their intentions or the path they would have the podsters take.

I just took the Boy meets Girl? to mean that even Ava sees something more going on in Liz's connection to Max.

Dayneen: Wow Thank you for posting this pic. They do look like they have come right out of a Fairy Tale romance. Lets hope it's not just a fantasy but a reality.

Evid

anyway I can't believe I didn't get to see this stuff when is was up. I hope they are bringing it back. It's funny how you miss something when you were just there. Now I'm very interested in what all these symbols from Ava mean. I already get a kick out of the website, especially the school project interviews.

I was looking at the pics of how the podster were standing and how the book looked. They are still in order
Micheal......Is
Tess.....max
the difference is they are turned so it looks like
Is....Max
Michael...Tess
Does that makes sense. Any way you turn them they are still standing in the same order. That was from Tess, right.

Anyway about the Liz thing that is interesting she put that in her collage,but left out the fact that she thought Zan was always waiting for someone too.

Now getting back to TSAP, how come the shooter didn't actaully shoot anyone. He has a scope and could easily have shot anyone of them and chose not too. If she (Laurie I think) has something to do w/the podsters DNA then were aliens trying to harvest her again or is the past catching up w/the future since FMax had come to earth did this disrupt more then we thought. Could this have been how everything started in the first place and now there is a paradox. I hope this makes sense to anyone.

Hyper whose now a dog. Any body got any scoopy snacks, hehehe

I have always thought that five pods symbol, the one with the open space was strange, but it is neat to realize that the one on the end probably does mean the granolith. It could have been podded, I guess, or sent with the pods in such a way that it was attached.

And the open pod... the damaged pod. That's the one that drives me crazy! Is that really Liz's pod? Could she be linked to Ava somehow? Is Tess really a shapeshifter, or an alien made to resemble Ava by Nasedo's intervention? Wish I could figure that out! Hope the epis up to the season finale shed some light on this...

Ash

BTW, on rewatching I too thought that the shooter's eyes are NOT Grant's, but I can't be sure. Could the mask flatten his brow? Here are some tweaked screencaps that show the shooter's eyes:
Grant's eyes:
Dan's eyes:
Cousin's eyes:
I couldn't find one of Grant's eyes with the scope, but we all recognised them. BTW, once again we seem to have 2 shooters! And I'm betting Grant is a Temp. Maybe the Pilot shooters were too!

P.S.: Someone mentioned that on the interviews Liz's fav author was Jane Austen. I have been a Big Austen fan since before Shiri was born; all of her novels have romances that end happily ever after with no visible blood shed, in spite of the immaturity of the young heroines and adversity that arises from social structures including more-or-less arranged marriages which the lovers must overcome.

Over at crashdown.com this just in:
The collages are at http://www.silverhandprint.com/antar/
The 285S interviews are at: http://www.silverhandprint.com/profile/

Shapeshifter - I too am a huge Jane Austen fan! Nothing like a little "Pride & Prejudice" to make any romantic happy! Also, did you notice that her favorite movie is "When Harry Met Sally"? One of my favorite romantic comedies. And interesting to note, that it involves two people whose SLOWLY developed friendship and support for each other ends up in romance. Also, their continual "running into each other" through the years is the equivalent to "Destiny." Ummm....!

BTW OT - HI! 6thRock - How was the lunch?!! Sorry I had to miss it - but the skiing was so great today!

Okay - back on topic. That picture of M&L set in a Arthurian wedding is Fabulous Dayneen!! Where did it come from!! I can hardly wait to learn more about the ANTAR's ( so sad about Twilo - it can be Antar's "Dupe" - what do you say TPTB??) social structure. That could make for some interesting storytelling in Season 3 (assuming it happens if there is a strike??).

The most interesting thing about the "Ava collages" for me is that Liz is on there at all. Just TPTB in charge of the silverhandprint deciding to include her picture as if Ava thought her existence was important enough to include makes me so excited! Maybe I'm reaching, BUT I don't think so. Well - off for now, but I'm so excited that TPTB threw us these collages and student surveys (even if temporarily) to analyze.

We are all a piece of work - isn't it wonderful!!

Zero
I Shall (Continue To) Believe!

They can't keep us away so easily ! AND if any of TPTB do read this thread ???? I wanted to thank them for doing such a great job with the Profiles - they truly read like the characters at that time would have filled them out!!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe! :love;

It's impossable to represent this 3-D structure as a 2-D drawing definitively. Any 2-D pattern of the podsters is going to be equally (in)accurate. Therefore, I don't believe that there's any great significance to the way they are presented.

Spacial relationships: It's a guy thing.

Also End of the World takes place on a school night

AND a big clue everyone has been missing about Nicholas. He DOES peel! in "Wipeout" when the kids are hiding in the bathroom he looks into the mirror and yells "MOM" and she comes over and says "Don't pick". which means he's def. a skin but how he survived Tess's fireball I don't know. I also know it was Miko Hughes on the scooter at the end but I don't know if it was originally supossed to be Nicholas and they changed their minds or it IS supossed to be Nicholas? TPTB-Answers please!!!!

Hyper

My head is spinning from all the new info from the silverhandprint site. I wonder why they removed them from the front page? hmmm... anyway, I got in there the back way and I'm glad to see you posted the more detailed links. Here they are again: www.silverhandprint.com/antar www.silverhandprint.com/profile
Absolutely fascinating collages. I'll have to ponder those some more. I found the Kyle/Max profiles very funny.

Thanks guys for the great synosis on white roses.

Okay, back to that mystery man... from season one! You know, how I said I thought it was in the Missing promo that we see him. Nope, it's actually in the Heatwave promo. hmm...
Here's a pic.

I don't think he was one of the kids involved in that party. Well then, who is he?

Hi Ash

There has to be a reason for this. I wonder what it is?

I also like the "familiar faces" interpretation. I hope Liz is a familiar face for the dupes too.

There has to be a reason for this. I wonder what it is?

My guess would be that even if the aliens:
1. knew of Vilondra's betrayl or not
2. if Kivar betrayed Vilondra or not
They wouldn't want the NM royal 4 to have too much in the way of memories of the past. Friendships, betrayls, anger, fear, love, all create preconceptions, expectations, possible continuations of past mistakes, and not let them look beyond known "facts". The aliens engineered the NM podsters to be different than what they were. The aliens were trying to start over with a clean slate--a second chance to get it right. Perhaps a chance to fix mistakes made in their previous life. By not knowing the "facts," they might be able to discover something new. Knowing the past might bind them to certain "facts" or that need to be changed or done differently.

Anyway, I guess I do have a question, Has any of your mythology stuuf predicted anything in an epi yet? Like have you guessed an action or date? I doubt in Season Two because it hasn't been to continual. Kind of choppy actually. But in season one or maybe in season two did you predict anything that happened???

This thread is great. If I ever come one with anything new I'll definately stop lurking and post!

Anyway, I guess I do have a question, Has any of your mythology stuuf predicted anything in an epi yet? Like have you guessed an action or date? I doubt in Season Two because it hasn't been to continual. Kind of choppy actually. But in season one or maybe in season two did you predict anything that happened???
[/B]

So far, our biggest prediction was that Liz would be changed (as a result of the healing and the reverse connection), and that has come true. Exact why - the healing alone, or more is not know - yet.

Also, we predicted that the "change" would result in the development of "powers" - and as seen in MITC, Liz does have powers, but the extent of those powers have yet to be seen.

Of course, we have many theories and thoughts that have been discussed that have appeared in piece here and there. Like many of us thought it was unlikely that the podsters were the only ones - and sure enough, Season 2 the Dupes showed up. But the biggest two are the top two with Liz. I'm sure others out there can thing of little ones here and there, but those are the most important ones so far.

Season 2 seems to raise more questions than answers, so only time will tell if any of our other theories come true!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe!

redhawk, I would guess that the diamond ring Is drew on Liz's questionnaire would be part a 'recovered memory' of the Granolith (like the images she & Max drew in the sand as children, etc.), and part her own wish for a 'normal' life with an engagement ring, a husband, 2 kids, and a white picket fence. Um, hopefully, (knowing Vilondra) the ring is from the husband.

Norma Bates, on the Max & Liz husks in the back: Okay, I have not watched that ep that much, and even GraceKel (where is she, anyway?) hasn't noticed it. So, I believe it's there, but I also think we weren't supposed to see it. My daughter always complains about how low-budget the show is that they have to recycle their actors (Summer of 47, Dupes, etc.). Well, for once I think she might be right. After all, I'm assuming they used actors to be husks rather than fabricating a bunch of mannikins. Does this sound likely?

Gwendolyn24, I just want to second what Zero already said: We were very proud of ourselves for having predicted that Liz was "changed." In fact, we even think they got the idea from us--at least I do even though I don't think I was actually one who thought she was changed. But now it seems so obvious--like the giant butterfly on her wall (see page 4? of this thread).

Melodious I think it says MARRIAGE LOVE HAS PAST too, and I thought so before I read that's what you thought!

Evid Balancing the pods for battle power as opposed to gender makes a lot of sense.

StarBox Too funny about the mirror--and too right!!

Tigereyes Nice to see you here

6throck I'm running into you everywhere these days!!!

Does anyone else think that Isabel's bedspread in TSAP looks kind of like Liz's? Or have any idea why this might be significant? They're both red and gold, and kind of swirly patterns. Not exactly the same, but when they first showed the bedspread on TSAP I thought it was Liz's for a moment till I saw Isabel.

Isabel's--from TSAP

Liz's--from EOTW

I have NO idea if this might mean anything, I just thought it was interesting

Another point: StarBox posted about the white rose petals maybe symbolizing that Liz was ready to be deflowered Lots of stuff has been posted about white roses, and red roses, which distills down to white=purity & love, red=love & passion (I'm really reducing here I know). So, I think that the red light used in the scene to colour the white petals red as Liz & Max begin kissing could be significant also

I've heard stuff about people believing that Liz was Max's true love in their home planet, but Max married Tess as a duty to his family.

Anyways, I really do believe that Liz was or is an alien, but we'll just have to watch to find out!

Now on the right it definitely says "Marriage", but on the left... I don't know, to me it looks like it says "Love Has Past" (?). What do y'all think?

Melodious

[b]images borrowed from Silverhandprint.com

[/B]

Oh my gosh! Now that I look at it carefully, it totally looks like that! I'm on my way to silverhandprint.com and checking that out!

I know some spoilers... if you want to know them, PM me!

Liz's healing: MAX: Liz, LIZ! You have to look at me. You have to look at me.

[Liz weakly looks at him, and he puts his hand over the bullet wound, we see images of Liz as a child, Max sighs and when he takes his hand away, the wound is healed]

In the conversation with Kyle we learn that Liz saw images from Max. Max has no idea that Liz saw images, because he told Liz later that he had never tried a reverse connection before. Maybe it was Liz that did it.

Kyle healing: Max heals Kyle.

KYLE: What the hell just happened to me?

I think Kyle was dead, he didn't seem to regain consciousness until the healing begin. His eyes flutter and then he begins to cough and has no idea what happened.

Children: Each time Max heals, he is flooded with images of the child's memories.

LITTLE GIRL: Are you an angel?
MAX: Go back to sleep.

Max then heals little girl.

Kyle & Liz's conversation:
KYLE: We, uh...we're the only two people I know of who have died and were brought back by an alien.
LIZ: Yeah. You're right.
KYLE: You feel different?
LIZ: Yeah. Kyle...when he healed you, um...did...did you see things?
KYLE: See things?
LIZ: Flashes. Images.
KYLE: No. But since he healed me, I keep getting these flashes of Max Evans naked.

Max tells the little girl to go back to sleep. He tells Liz to open her eyes and he was very adamant about it, he made us believe that this was the only way Liz could be healed.
Max get's images from Liz and also from the children. The children and Liz were conscious, Kyle was not. Liz is the only one who can see images from Max, a reverse connection.
Kyle tells Liz that they were brought back from the dead. Liz agrees, but we all know that she was not dead. I don't know why she agreed with Kyle, makes no sence.

I read that Jason Katims said that if Liz got powers, Kyle had to also, because of the healing. If this was the case why make Liz's healing seem so much more special?
Why the need for Max to connect to Liz and not Kyle or the children? As I said makes no sence. TPTB I hope you clear this up soon because my head in spinning.

Evid

its all so much to think about...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shapeshifter
Notice that when they are side-to-side/mirrored, Liz is in the [b]central position!

ok..you know the whole V shape? well, when these two collages are put together, there is this sort of V shape made out of the pod configurations. from the two michales, up to the two maxes, and with liz in the center. is anyone understanding what im saying? its like diagonally starting with michael to max then to liz, makeing the V constellation. i dont know if it would really mean anything, but i was just noticing that.

Okay - I rewatched TSAP and you all are right - RIVERDOG is there!!! Woo-Hooo!!!!!!!

Also - Shapeshifter & all who are wondering about the shooter - I THINK that if you rewatch the scene carefully it is possible to tell who it is. Right before he raises the gun to his shoulder - you see more of his face behind the mask.

Norma - my husband noticed the "Max" husk in Wipeout as well and pointed it out to me - and I will agree - it looks an awful lot like Max. Honestly - it makes my conspiricy theorist head just spin too much so I chalked it up to just a weird thing.

Also - whoever said that Lonnie and Tess have the same expression in the collages - I agree.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

If you like it check out my homepage : www.roswellangel.subnet.dk

Love from

Angel

There has been sporadic mention of knowledge of spoilers on this thread (pm me, etc.)...

Those of you who are new to this topic should know that the Liz Mythology thread is spoiler free. It's really important to us that spoilers not be presented here. In that light, allusions to spoiler knowledge would be inappropriate as well. It would be rather like offering a drink to an alcoholic.

Please know that you are welcome here and your comments are valued, but help us maintain a spoiler-free environment.We love the story, we love dissecting clues and speculation and we love Liz, but the thread charter is clear about our position on spoilers. There should be none.

I'm fairly new to this group too; I've only been participating for three months. I don't mean to be a bad guy, but one of the reasons I participate here as opposed to other threads is the mutual respect for a spoiler-free environment.

Thanks, and sorry for any offense,

My question is, how much do they really pay extras that do not have a line? I thought they do not pay extras anything unless they actually speak. So, I'm sure they could have gotten a bunch of extras to volunteer to be husks. They may be low budget, but extras are bottom of the barrel.
Anyway, my point is, if there were Max and Liz husks (which I did not see) - then I think they were intended to be there.

I printed the collages out on photo paper yesterday in hopes for some clarity (ha).

It's been thrilling to read your many discoveries about the collages, especially Juliet's catch that the two pod drawings went side by side and that they mirrored one another. What clever observation!

Now, that said, without altering anything, I'd have to say that I don't think the two pieces fit together perfectly. I agree that they are mirrored, but could there possibly be another panel we haven't seen yet? After all, we do see on the first picture >>>8, which Zarro the math man (Mr. Zara) read as MUCH more than 8. Zero noticed that and mentioned it early on.

As for "Familiar Faces", I thought that was a reference to the set of podsters and their visual similarity to Ava's own set, but I love the interpretation that it relates to M and L.

I also think Moon Maiden's interpretation of Vilandra and Kivar's relationship from the fourth collage is quite astute. It seems squarely on the money to me that Kivar manipulated Vilandra into betrayal and subsequently killed her.

This is all so exciting!

Zara

shapeshifter - I definitely think the dot is Liz. Notice on all the pages where Ava writes or pastes the words Royal 4 when referring to the Roswellians, there is a dot in front or behind these words.

Bring Back The Heart of Roswell

In the fourth collage (cruel King Kivar), did you notice the 3 Lonnies, 2 Raths and 1 Zan? What does anyone make of that? The three lonnies are b/w center and colored in complementary colors on the side, like opposites. Rath is yellow and b/w. Zan is in true color. What's up there?

One last thing, did anyone else reading the 285S surveys think they were far too revealing? I'll have to go back and look for specifics (okay, even the doodling in the margins -- the diamond/granilith drawing, for one).My point is they told their teacher too much about themselves! Remember the survey questions came from Ms. Topolsky anyway. The FBI saw those pages, we can be pretty sure. Of course, Special Unit files may be gone now, but the teacher (Mr. Hanning?) saw the papers. Let's see a faculty meeting with the Biology, Astronomy, History and Art departments! Those smarty teachers could come up with some interesting theories if they shared stories!

But the teachers don't suspect, I think. M/M/I/T are just normal students in their eyes.

Here is the new address for the Leaving Normal alternate ending: http://www.geocities.com/redhawksroswell/pics/LNdfend.gif
Let me know if you need a new address for anything else. The old ones will be good 'til the 31st.

Of course, our memories make us who we are. So how much can you remove someone's memories, before their essence is removed also? I'm going to predict that the NM4 have just as much memories as the NY4, but they are suppressed, or blocked from use my the conscious minds of the NM4. Tess's recovered memories (and the others' occasional flashes) may be leakage past this blockage.

Please don't anyone get mad at me for bringing this up on the Liz thread. IMHO, anything that relates to Tess relates to Liz, since Tess is, for the time being, Liz's direct rival.

Please don't anyone get mad at me for bringing this up on the Liz thread. IMHO, anything that relates to Tess relates to Liz, since Tess is, for the time being, Liz's direct rival.

I don't know if I agree that Nescedo and Tess had a relationship beyond that of protector and protectee. I was a little suprised when Tess meantioned the memory retrival techniques though. It seemed too much like a bait line then anything else.

I'll have to go back and watch it again to see if there were any sexual vibes there. (Oh, darn. Again? ) But I don't remember that sticking out in my mind. Although she has been downplaying her sexual references to Max since MITC. Course, she hasn't really appeared on camera with him since then.

But any way, another thing that has stuck in my mind, to go back to MITC, was Tess' expression when Rath and Lonnie were talking about alien sex. It was, at least to me, an expression of someone who was extremely offended. But then she has always been open about the need to mate with Max and the others.

I don't know. Oh, but Mel, I think it was you who said this, I agree that it looks like it says Love has past and marriage between Max and Tess in Ava's scrapbook. If that's what it says, oh the possiblities. Could it be that since Tess was not raised with Max or was not Max's first love, she can no longer be married to him? Who knows.

Of course I like the simplicity of this answer. Remember, is not an . But aside from normal describing her permanent non-alien status, I don't think "normal" would be an accurate adjective for Liz.

Liz is incrediably smart. Definately beyond the terms of normal.
Liz has been Max's object of interest for unknown reasons since he first saw her.
Liz herself claims she left normal when she chose to follow her heart. That is what Leaving Normal was all about for her.

What this thread is about is how Liz is different from the outside world, and how her importance relates to the aliens. She is not normal. Although I firmly believe that she is 100% human (albeit altered slightly) what makes her special to Max and the pod squad is that she is not a conventional confidant for the pod squad. Even the dupes seemed to recognize Liz's presenses as important. Rath kissed her, "To get the lay of the land." Kissing Liz seems to be one method of getting closer to the pod squad.

Liz is special to Max. Liz is special to the survival of Earth. I don't think that Liz has anyway of being normal anymore. Didn't she say in Skin and Bones, "Things can never go back to the way they were."

Thanks for posting.

Re: a Tess/Harding "relationship" - now see I sort of miss "sex-kitten Tess" - I think there was definately subtext to this effect last season (and in S&B) - I also think there is subtext to the tune that Tess was using sexuality to get to Isabel. In the shooting script to FourSquare the Tess/Isabel interaction in the kitchen is described with overt sexual overtones. But alas, now we have our kind and gentle Tess who is more like little orphan Annie than Lolita. I thought Lolita was much more interesting - albeit - less likeable.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

You know, the fact that Tess has not gone to Michael and offer to teach him memory retrival techniques seems strange. Tess is the podster that wants the others to remember. Even if she could not sway Max to try, she should have no trouble with Michael. It makes you wonder why she hasn't gone to Michael yet. Would Michael or Isabel remember something that Tess does not want to surface? Something that proto-Max knew nothing about?

Anyway, I've spent the last 20 minutes searching for a screencap from MttM. I wanted to show you how the bus where Maxcedo changes into Clowncedo lights up and compare it to this cap shapeshifter tweeked. As I was taping MTTM for Metaphysicsgrl, I noticed how similiar it was.

But if you recall, put that mental image in your head and now look at the "Subway" Ava drew.

Courtesy of thewb.com with minor tweaks by shapeshifter: No infrigement intended. Use for the academic discussion of Roswell.

courtesy of silverhandprint.com

Now, here's the note from Sexual Healing.
courtesy of crashdown.com

courtesy of crashdown.com

While I'm at it, let's see how "Maria's" handwriting compares too.

courtesy of crashdown.com

courtesy of silverhandprint.com

Love your frankness This is so good, Starbox. Your points are great.

...Also - if she really had these abilities - I am sure Michael would have given his right arm to have him "teach her" - he is so obsessed with finding out about the past. ...

I hadn't thought of this, but you're absolutely right - Michael would have wnated memory retrieval skills at all costs. (And he's so impulsive anyway, all costs could have crazy ramifications.)

Re: a Tess/Harding "relationship" - now see I sort of miss "sex-kitten Tess" - I think there was definately subtext to this effect last season (and in S) - I also think there is subtext to the tune that Tess was using sexuality to get to Isabel. ... Now we have our kind and gentle Tess who is more like little orphan Annie than Lolita.

Yes, that was definitely there. She targeted Max and Isabel's sexuality to secure her initial place in the group. It's her forte, I guess. I do agree about Lolita becoming LO Annie, but Tess is still using her sexuality; she's just being more subtle about it now. I mean, maybe she's trying to get to Kyle, too. (beyond normal attraction) Does he have something she would need since his transMAXification? Jury's still out on that.

Reggie - I completely agree with you. I keep thinking of that flash of something similar to a skinned dead cow head that Max has when approaching Brody's office, and figure it is a recovered memory caused by the heightened emotions involved there. I thing the NY4 are defective in that they are too like the original aliens, and the NM4 are the "chosen" ones due to the fact they are more Human - as was the plan - which resulted in their memories of their former lives (may have been more than one since we are now finding out about the human side - or I hope we do - in the Hybrid Chronicles) being suppressed DEEP in their subconscious mind. I keep wondering WHY? TPTB mentioned this recovered memory thing but haven't done anything with it since??

Oh BTW - I have to second the comment (Zara - was that you??) about this being a SPOILER FREE ZONE! Even the asides about spoilers should be steered clear of to honor the unspoiled who frequent or lurk here. I personally am not spoiler free (BAD ZERO!! ), but take most of what I read with a grain of salt, and never let them influence what I write on this thread. If I do think I'm being influenced, than I don't post my thoughts on that topic - I save it to see if someone else come up with a similar theory on their own!

SO - Here's to the new episode tomorrow night and the hope that we get more relevant information and an answer or two or three or .....! (Okay, I can dream can't I!)

Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe!

Also - in the profiles - Max's favorite movie is Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Remember a few threads back when I wondered if the musical "tones" during his flashes (that plotted out a V formation if you put them down as notation) could be similar to the musical "communication" in Close Encounters. At the time I thought I was just wildly speculating - but now........hmmmmmmm..........

QFanny - CREEPY about the bus/subway

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Also - in the profiles - Max's favorite movie is Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Remember a few threads back when I wondered if the musical "tones" during his flashes (that plotted out a V formation if you put them down as notation) could be similar to the musical "communication" in Close Encounters. At the time I thought I was just wildly speculating - but now........hmmmmmmm..........

QFanny - CREEPY about the bus/subway

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

StarBox!

Thanks for posting those. I went over to speak with my MOB sisters with those caps! See what happens with Roswell fans get board. Anyway, I am glad you and Zara also found the MttM lighted up bus and the subway car CREEPY. Zara brought up a good point about buses and Roswell. In fact, I don't think buses have ever been a good thing in Roswell.

ITW bus Liz and Maria were caught in a lie.
MttM bus is where Liz was abducted by Maxcedo and then abandonned, knowing Max had been captured.
Kyle was forgotten about at the bus station.
The Skins came to Roswell on a bus.

Great points!

I was also thinking tha since Liz did see flashes whens he was brought back then she may have a power that one of the females hybrids have. Like getting into peoples head like Isabel. Which is something she could acquire since Max and Isabel to share the same alien genes. So maybe Kyle will end up w/one of the guys powers. Maybe the shield or something.

Hyper

Zara & Zero, thanks for reminding newbies & oldies alike that some of us Really Don't Want to Read Spoilers. I know it must seem weird, but I don't even read the jacket of a Grisham book till I've finished it. But, aside from catering to wimps like me, Spoilers Are Not Allowed on this board & the mods could potentially (though I doubt they would) shut down this thread if spoilers become a chronic problem. So, if you're tempted to share because it really would answer the questions we seem to be dying to have answered, Go Eat A Chocolate Bar Instead!!
--shapeshifter now steps off soapbox and shifts back into RBI mode...

Dayneen, Nice Catch on the DOTS...

Qfanny, Terrific Explanation of Why Liz isn't Normal. I'm sure Maxcedo will want to use it!

HyperKitten, as usual, you manage to say in a few words what I've been trying to put into thoughts for months! Actually, I think I had it backwards (that alien Zan had met human girl in future before being cloned). Yours works perfectly. WR, if you're out there, read Hyperkittn's post directly above this one.

That would be really funny if that was just a prank, and nobody caught it! I didn't see where they were in the shot - but to those who saw them - where were they? Could it have been a prank? I'm not really sure how husks would factor into this current hybrid storyline. I think a husk is alot different from the way the hybrids were created.

I think if the husks were there, we might not have been meant to see it now, but maybe in the future there will be flashback episode, in which we see more. The skins may have been planning to infiltrate the royal four by pretending to be them. (Of course, this brings up the question of the NY podsters, and if it is possible that the skins already infiltrated them.)

Re: memory retrieval. I don't know. On one hand that information would be useful to know. On the other, all the hurt and betrayal from a previous life would be hard to take.

Max's DNA from the future? Maybe they had to really search for the proper specimen to fufill the requirements to host a king...that Liz would have to fall madly in love with him.

I'm sorry, who are the lurking rebels? Greyhound?

I was trying to begin up-dating the Intro today, and decided to work on the Hero's Journey. I thought I'd post it here, get comments, and then add it to the next Intro. What I did was take something BehrAll posted awhile ago, and edit it fit here. Let me know what you think. Also, if you know who to correct attribute portions of it to, let me know. I'm not trying to take credit for the analysis - just trying to get the thoughts/discussion posted since it is relevant.

Liz’s Hero’s Journey

[The following is a summary of what BehrAll pulled together on another thread, and I’m applying it to LIZ! I thank all who may have contributed to this originally, and apologize for not mentioning your name. I believe the bulk of the following was quoted from NyLoN? And that Czech please also contributed to the post.] The Hero's Journey is perhaps the most famous method of storytelling ever. First used by Homer, it was given 'shape' by Joseph Campbell in the 20th century. It has been the basis for many of the most famous and popular works of fiction.

The Hero's Journey is a series of stages that a heroine must go through during her adventure. The stages are flexible in that they are not clearly defined, and Campbell admits that one need not follow all the stages for it to be a true journey. The Hero's Journey (HJ) does not apply to an entire plotline, but rather to a character or several characters and their evolution throughout a series. In our case, we believe that Liz is in the process of the HJ. Following are the HJ stages with references of how it applies to Liz (which I added):
1. Call to Adventure - The heroine must first be forcibly drawn into the adventure, this occurs from a normal occurrence and not something strange or supernatural. Liz’s healing after being shot would be such an event.
2. Threshold Guardian - The heroine must face a minor obstacle that blocks her way to the adventure. Okay – there are more obstacles that Liz has faced than I can mention here, but being a small-town girl who is human may be the initial minor obstacle.
3. Wise and Helpful Guide - The inexperienced heroine must find a guide who will aid her with advice and materials that will be instrumental in her journey. I’m not sure who this could be – Grandma Claudia seems the obvious choice, but River Dog could be on too. But this goes along with my belief that someone is watching over Liz.
4. Into the Labyrinth - The heroine must step out into the unknown and the “den of evil.” Getting involved with Max was stepping into the unknown. Working to defeat the enemy is stepping into the “den of evil.”
5. Heroic Deeds - The heroine must engage in mortal combat, often sacrificing something or someone for the further good to continue her quest. Liz has faced death – think escape from the FBI Special Unit – and sacrificed her own “happy” future with Max in TEOTW for the greater good.
6. Trials - The midway point of the hero's journey is marked by a series of trials, ordeals, tests and obstacles.
7. Into the Belly of the Beast - A popular occurrence is the literal swallowing of the heroine by some great beast. This often marks the entrance to a mythical world where a great transformation occurs. However, in most works the belly of the beast is a metaphor for a stronghold of the enemy. Okay – Liz had to confront the Skins before disappearing, and there are probably other examples out there.
8. Sacrifices - The opening of the mind and heart of the heroine requires her be prepared to (or in some cases does) sacrifice something of great import to her. Okay, think TEOTW – need I say more???
9. Atonement - The hero's journey sometimes includes a "father (or mother?) quest." After many trials and ordeals, the heroine finds her father and becomes "at one" with him. (Note, occasionally this step is eliminated to create 13 stages.) Since we don’t know the circumstances of Liz’s birth, we assume that her dad is her true dad, but ….
10. Return - The heroine then returns to her home with newfound powers, knowledge or ability to benefit her people. Liz does have newfound powers, but … Maybe this is for Season 3??
11. Return of Evil - The heroine is not the only one who is reborn, the forces of evil also reform and come anew. Okay – this could happen numerous times over the course of Roswell!
12. Enchanted Forest - The inhabitants of the enchanted forest are strange creatures who can be both helpful and dangerous. The heroine must know how to get them to aid her on her quest. (Note, this is the second most likely step to be removed to create 13 stages.) Liz has already “befriended” Ava – definitely a “strange creature, and Ava added Liz’s quest to save Max. I would see Liz as instrumental in working with other creatures to seek their assistance.
13. Heart of Darkness - The heroine must enter the center of power for evil in order to destroy it or its' leader. This definitely could happen in future episodes! I can see her ability to see the evil within (if that proves true) coming in useful there.
14. Final Victory and Journey's End - In the end the heroine triumphs over evil and brings forth something new, be it enlightenment, power, understanding or a whole new society. Is there any doubt!!!

Liz’s relationship with Max is key in her journey, but it isn't the only issue she's dealing with (or needs to deal with!). The Hero's Journey can be physical or emotional. An emotional journey, such as usually occurs in a romance, takes the protagonist from her normal state of affairs and challenges her ideas, beliefs and current existence. A proactive protagonist responds to such challenges, undergoing tests of her moral fiber and emotional strength. Frequently she will have to examine all that she has believed to be true before a major confrontation. It is here that she pulls victory from disaster. And it is here that she seeks to return to normalcy. Many writers believe this is the end of the journey. But it isn't.
TEOTW as probably Liz’s "major confrontation" since it was her actions here that pulled "victory from disaster." The future was changed and (we assume) the events FM warned her of do not come to pass. At this point, she knows all she has gone through with (and for) Max has changed her, but believes that part of her life is over now. Liz is hoping that things can be relatively normal again, and has been trying to resume the life she had before Max. But as we all see, she will, of course, be unsuccessful.

The issue at the heart of Liz's HJ, the thing that she must overcome, is the myth of her own insignificance. She believes firmly in her ability to control her own destiny, but often dismisses the notion that she is any more than an obstacle to Max's journey. She's wrong, of course! In TEOTW, we learn that it is their love that damns them and those they care about. This is huge! Liz's romance, her emotional connection, determines the fate of the world. And ultimately, she is the one with the power to save everyone. Unfortunately, she doesn't recognize this power, only the fact that she will be alone now. Her journey isn't over yet.

Liz and Max's respective HJ's have intersected many times already, and we believe that they will eventually merge together. This is why many of us don't worry too much about their couple status. Most of us believe there is much more to Liz than we have seen and that her destiny is more important than she could possibly imagine. We believe things she has accepted at face value her whole life will be turned upside down. Her ultimate sacrifice will be the belief that she is normal. Once she accepts that she is no longer "the smallest of small town girls," she will need to accept entirely new perspectives and responsibilities. At that point, the HJ that has we've seen unfold on Roswell so far will be over and another phase in her life will begin.

That's it! What do you think??
Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe!

Thanks for including the Liz and heroism information. It's been a burning issue with me for a couple of years to study Joseph Campbell's Power of the Myth series, which I missed 10 years ago, or whenever it first came out. I need to get on that! Thank you for the reminder.

Reggie: I think it would qualify only if the space craft was a form of public transportation.

Zero-sounds good to me.

I have to check out this husk thing. Every time I watcht that eppy I tried to see if I saw anyone who looks like they could have been in Roswell,but never thought of a Max and Liz. I think I will do that right now.

Also the bus thing is pretty interestng too. In MITC (or JTTC which ever is the official name for the eppy) they never were shown riding on the subway were they. I can't remember off hand. I can't watch the eppies w/the dupes too much cause Katherine and Brendan trip me out too much with Lonnie and Rath (freaks bebe)

Wow! Tonight Nakita and Tomorrow Roswell. I'm in TV heaven,hehehe!

Hyper

Those are just right off the top of my head - but the writers seem to use the mirror as a recurring symbol of Liz's journey.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I'm glad you're back! Haven't commented on anything you've said, just want to say hi.

Everyone

I do like to see the reminders not to post spoilers, but in addition to posting a reminder, could you also PM the poster and ask them to remove it too?

Also, for those that didn't know it, CelestialAngel is our moderator. We can always PM the moderator to remove spoilers. I would just let them know what page, who and what time they posted. Maybe this way we can keep this under control. I have been known to leak, but I don't think I ever deliberately posted spoiler. BTW-- I am almost spoiler free now.

Zero do you want to add to your introduction who our moderator is?

Off to pay bills!

Thanks for posting those. I went over to speak with my MOB sisters with those caps! See what happens with Roswell fans get board. Anyway, I am glad you and [b]Zara also found the MttM lighted up bus and the subway car CREEPY. Zara brought up a good point about buses and Roswell. In fact, I don't think buses have ever been a good thing in Roswell.

ITW bus Liz and Maria were caught in a lie.
MttM bus is where Liz was abducted by Maxcedo and then abandonned, knowing Max had been captured.
Kyle was forgotten about at the bus station.
The Skins came to Roswell on a bus.

Great points!

[/B]

Also the Hussies, the Max/Tess shippers, and those annoying people who believe in Destiny keep chanting "Max, watch out for the bus!" Not good at all.

Thank you everyone for your effort to keep this a spoiler free board. I've been spoiler free for the last 5 episodes and I really have enjoyed not knowing ahead of time, I love surprises. It also gives me a clear piece of mind when I come up with theories.

Evid

I was doing a marathon Roswell watch (courtesy of an ice storm) and was struck by Tess' scream in Wipe Out. It reminded me of Summer of '47 when Hank talks about the aliens and compares them to a mother bear. Tess' screams sound very similar to the noise the aliens made when they discovered Hank standing over the pods. Tess screams when she is afraid that Max is dying. I have to think that she is a shapeshifter or some type of protector. I don't think she knows this by the way.

By the way in the script "Missing", it identifies the mysterious person in Valenti's house as a FBI agent. In the orginial script, the agent was going to bop Max on the head when suddenly Kyle drives up. Max senses something behind him which when he turns around was Liz.

By the way, cut from RTCC, Kyle did give Tess a Christmas present and I'm sure you'll agree it was perfect - her own chair!

Rooney

Originally posted by Zero:
YET - but as a former Math major, the following 2 things jumped out at me on the collage.

1 - The "surviviors" is over a picture of items set in the sand going off into the distance. Does this represent previous aliens visiting the Earth into the distant past??

2 - Above the picture of the circles with the pods in them is ">>>8" - in Math, this is a sign of "greater than" which plays into some of the theories that say there are more Hybrids out there (maybe not clones of the podsters, but other Hybrids).

Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe! [/B]

HI guys
Zero : on your #1 I think thats exactly what it might mean (sorry to get into the discussion so late but you guys move fassssst ). ON the #2, not only does it represent "greater than" but maybe, well for me, being a lazy *ss that I am sometimes use the "8" as the vertical symbol of infinity?

I had a couple questions/observations that you guys didn't talk about yet :confussed: I dunno if they just left it there cause it was funny or not but its curious how the entire collage is set on a sort of "food for thought" theme.

I'm not good @math so what do you think about the recipe/price theme? If you read it it straight thru with the changes it says:

THERAPY TACOS (chicken or steak)
w/guacamole
w/picante 4...add $.50(or half:confussed: )Next to where it reads ANTAR'S FALL.

So was this sort of a simple equation of an indecision that caused a fall. Also what does the add half mean? And if so who is the little half that was added...
Was this the recipe for Antar's fall?

Then:

(Love how it says "MELTDOWN BY AVA"...)

On AVA (next to dessert) it has 2 sets...slice $1.00.
I dunno maybe that meant minus one Zan?!?!

And finally:

ESCAPE SPECIAL for ONLY... 5

Things that make you go hmmm...

Atleast if this is true we definately know that the dupes were clones of the original 4 with the "split decisions biotechnology, some else's genes". Unless they change it now ...

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I noticed a change in Liz's room at the end of MITC. When Max was telling Liz that he wanted to be friends you can see two round chinese lanterns, one is blue and the other one is yellow. Last season Liz only had one yellow latern, you can see it on SH when she is sneaking in the window. The strange thing is on EOTW when she and FMax are having the cementing conversation, there is only a blue lantern, no yellow. On MTD when Max is returning the knife the yellow latern is back again, right behind Max's head, however the blue one is gone. So your wondering where I'm going with this? Well it's seems that Liz's change has brought the sun and the earth together. The first time you see both laterns side by side is after the change, as I stated above at the end MITC. Maybe the sun represents Max and the earth Liz. What is your take on this?

This pic is from ARCC, I think the set designers were screaming at us to notice them.

Evid

Ok, back to lurkdom......

Starbox-love the mirror stuff its incredible how much there actually is of it.

Zara and Qfanny-to the bus thing-add young Max stepping off the bus and doing a double take look at our Liz Parker who is smiling back at him?

Evid--nice pickup on the lanterns in Liz's room--and I too noticed Liz saying FRIGGIN and then later EDDIE where is my order? And if it wasn't the old DOG himself it sure was a good imitation of him.

Starbox--I agree with you about SEAN--he looks spooky and everyone thinks he is bad but twice in this eppy Liz says "I need help" and then again "we need PROFESSIONAL HELP" and at both times SEAN walks in hmmmmmmm??????

I did think the pacing was a little bit better in TSAP eppy though, it was a marked improvement to the flash and dash of the past, however I thought this episode was a bit too repetitive with Sheriff and DL scenes being same same, and Isabel dreams being same same same same. Twice maybe not four times. I know I am such a critic LOL.

Evid—interesting observation about the yellow and blue lanterns (earth and the sun coming together). That is so original!!

I have a few ideas about the past life info on the podsters and Liz.

1) Zan loved a woman whose soul is now in Liz’s. Ava and Zan were in an arranged marriage that Zan was pressured into being involved in, possibly thinking Liz was dead or she left him (for the good of his kingdom).
2) Liz was Zan’s true bride, but she found out that their was a possibility of an assassination, so Ava was used as a decoy. With that 3 possibilities:
a) Ava was a warrior and was used as the decoy because of this (maybe she was Liz’s hand maiden
b) Tess’s “memories” of Zan loving her, may have been her remembering the “fake” vows that were given, or perhaps her remembering Zan being nice to her.
c) Ava may have volunteered for the position of decoy because she was secretly in love with Zan. This was her way of being a part of his life. She may have been aware of the plan to rebirth the Royals and figured that this would make her a part of Zan’s next life, giving her another chance at winning his heart.

Question I have been pondering: How long to Antarians live? It has been implied that the podsters were incubating for 40 years on purpose. Max and Isabel’s mom, in the mom-o-gram said “Come back and free us so that I may hold you both in my arms.” Does that mean that they live much longer? What happens when Max and the other Royals (including Liz, of course) go back to Antar to rule? Hmmmmmmmm.

GraceKel: Now where have you been? I come in the front door and you go out the back. I got your PM. I've been so busy with work that it's really hard for me to hit any other sites, but I'm going to make an effort once my work load lightens up. We really do need our Liz/Shiri back.

You also caught Liz's "Friggin" line? As soon as she said it my mind went back to Riverdog when Max said "Friggin Eddie." I really do think we are headed down the Native American path once again, and I couldn't be more happy.

Evid

Hey, this shot was taken from the screencaps of TSAP from crashdown.com. It's one of the screen shots of when Max & Iz were watching TV.

Notice the *pine cones*? Isn't the beach a strange place for pine cones to be?

I remember awhile back we were discussing pine cones...so, I thought some of you might be interested in this.

{~}:}

I have not lurked here in a while and I don't think I have ever posted here, but I am a regular over on the CHADDs thread and I came up with something I thought y'all might like.

Over there we started tossing around the plausibility of an idea brought up on the Ava's scrapbook pages thread that Max is actually Vilandra reincarnated based on, among other things, the idea that both Max and Vilandra share a capacity for all-consuming love.

Being the Dreamer that I am, I was unable to picture Max's soul drawn to any other soul than Liz's so I set about on a theory that would make Liz the bearer of Kivar's soul.

The result was a rather long and involved history of the alien wars (needed to make Kivar sympathetic, oh yeah, and dead) that I posted on FanFiction.net. You can find it here:

MyBigAlienWarTheory

A theory I heard here is included (that Liz's body is that of Shelia Hubble's baby).

I just thought you might be interested! I will go back to lurker status now. Thanks and happy Roswell Monday everyone!

Some meanings for YELLOW: Mental powers, new home, charm, confidence, visions, attraction, mental powers, intellect, the power to rationalize.

This is from a site on the universal meaning of colors: Yellow is a friendly and cheerful color. It shows action and warmth, and is also the color of intelligence. Yellow is the shade of social energy and will indicate a lot of cooperation from others. Yellow also represents curiosity and a desire to make things better.

From the same site: Blue is the color of higher thoughts and matters of mystery. It shows devotion and steady progress. It is the color of creative energy. Blue shows quiet wisdom and is ofter associated with the betterment of mankind. Blue cares about the welfare of others; it shows compassion and inner strength.

Some meanings of BLUE: Peace, truth, sleep, healing, hope, friendship, protection, calm, creativity, patience, wisdom, faith.

From these meanings, I kind of associated yellow with Liz and blue with Max instead of the other way around. However, the colors appearing when they do may be to indicate the mood of the episode, or what Liz happens to be going through, instead of being associated with a particular person. Like I said, I'm not good at developing theories. I hope this info can help add to someone else's.

Also, since Liz is wearing a white (well cream, but anyway ) sweater in the pic with the yellow and blue lanterns, I got this for white:

Meanings: truth, peace, purity, lunar magic, protection, happiness, divine.

Universal meaning: White is the strongest and most pure of all colors. It is felt to be the color of perfection and pure light energy. It represents good and fair judgement and shows the path of the spirit.

Wow, this got long! Sorry, but I hope it helps

Re: the colors
On the crashdown menu you see three ships in three colors. Red Blue and Yellow (here Liz is blocking the yellow one.

This menu is shown ALOT - especially in the first season. When Max did the reverse connection in Pilot- the menu was lit up by a spotlight. I have speculated that the three ships and three colors represent three factions - perhaps the royals, the skins, and the granolith keepers.

On the other hand however - the podsters (except for Michael) each seem to have a "color" that is assocaited with them.

Max is Green (his forcefield is green and he is frequently shown in green light)
Isabel is Red.
Tess is blue and/or pink - Tes usually wears blue - she has blue behind her in the collage - BUr she also paints her room pink (Ava would be pink too - her hair is pink and her collages are pink)
Liz is green and/or white (the first episodes of this season Liz was shown almost exclusively dressed in green)

Honestly - the color symbols are confusing to me - because there seem to be a couple of different ways that colors is used.
The lanterns definately mean something - I like the idea that they show the "marriage" of heaven and earth.
I wonder though - what is the link to Zan? And why is there a link between Zan and the lantern and then the same lanterns in Liz's bedroom??? Could they simply share "sun" symbolism or is it more??
And - of course - maybe the set designer got a good deal on lanterns and it is a nice way to diffuse light :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Hey, this shot was taken from the screencaps of TSAP from crashdown.com. It's one of the screen shots of when Max & Iz were watching TV.

Notice the *pine cones*? Isn't the beach a strange place for pine cones to be?
{~}:}

Not if you live in the Pacific Northwest - which this picture looks like it could have come from.

Also - about the color thing. For a while there it looked like we had come consistency, but this season that has all gove out the window - so, I don't think you can draw too many conclusions from colors.

Also - I rewatched TSAP, and sure enough, there was a fellow that looked just like RIver Dog from the back at the CD counter - combining that with the "Friggin Eddie" comment - well, if nothing else, the director was giving us something to pick-up on.

Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe!

Zero I agree with you about the colors--I think we seem to be all over the place with the colors now, where they seemed more uniform and predictable last season.

Starbox for some reason I think we have 3 factions represented----the REDS, the BLUES and the NEUTRALISTS (color? hmmmmm) not sure

Sorry, tried and true New Yorker here. Pine cones would be a strange thing on an East Coast beach, anyway!!

So maybe it's not the bus itself, but the action of getting on or off. Getting on the bus would be bad. Isabel got on the bus in WO, Nicholas had a little fun. When Max got off the bus in pilot, it was good. He saw Liz. He saw his future. When Liz was pulled on the bus by Maxcedo, it was bad. She saw Clowncedo.

Hmmm. Thanks GraceKel!

Which was all carefully documented at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/ specifically http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/colors.htm . Actually, agent Qfanny had a hard time finding all the good posts on it. Most were lost in the great pruning of July!

Please don't lurk! Come and post!

This quote really fits in with my idea on how the DUPES and the ROYALS were created! The cloning process is an editing process, to synthesis essense down to the most concentrated form.

quote:
Atleast if this is true we definately know that the dupes were clones of the original 4 with the "split decisions biotechnology, some else's genes". Unless they change it now

Thanks for posting!

Just looking forward to tonights show. You East coasters are probably watching it right now!!

Looks like we will be on a new Thread by tomorrow!

Starbox - I'm not sure how to incorporate the mirror stuff into the HJ, but I love the catches! I'm beginning to believe that if I had the time (and energy) to up-date the Intro right - it would be two Thread pages long! :lo: !!

See you all later!
Zero
I Shall (continue to) Believe!

Also- count me in to the number of people who saw RiverDog or RiverDog's doppelganger at the CD last episode.

QFanny, I never noticed how many buses have been on the show! Good catch!

Evid, I loved your stuff on the Chinese lanterns.

and Zero, great compliation of Liz's Hero Journey. I think that is an essential part of our mission- getting others to recognize that not just the aliens are on a journey.

Anyway, I thought Liz was going to write "Max" or "Granolith" or "Groo". It took me a while to figure out she wrote grow. I can't believe that Max said he couldn't come with her, that he holds her back. I really don't think so.

When Liz was looking at Alex's slides - did it seem to anyone else that the Northern Lights were sparking a MEMORY - not necessarily making her want to travel??(maybe like the smell of sulphur in the lab told her she was "home")

And hey - the "Make It Real" sign from Heatwave is back :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

So whats up with Sean? hmmmm??? And the Mustard?
The yellow mustard made me think of Nasedo and all that shapeshifting he did in yellow hmmmm--not sure though---this story is very confusing!!!

Did anyone notice the CROSS up on Liz's balcony--where did that come from--did it have to do with Alex? or Liz? or both?

Must watch this more b4 I say anything else.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I thought that too, but when they did the eraser room and she did the talk about travel, I wasn't so sure. But if two of us caught it, then hhuuuummmmmmm.....

I also noticed that in Harvest, after Max had seen Kyle and Liz and been up all night, someone commented to him that he looked like crap. Then tonight after the eraser room and the Kyle scene at the CD, Sean says the same to Liz. In Harvest, Max was really begining to "grow" and now Liz is really begining to "grow". Their journey's seem to follow the same path, only one a little ahead of the other. Or am I seeing tooo much in that?? I'm obsessed and I know it...

We create our own destiny.....Max/FMax

"Turn" by Travis

I want to see what people saw
I want to feel like I felt before
I want to see the kingdom come
I want to feel forever young
I want to sing
To sing my song
I want to live in a world where I belong
I want to live
I will survive
And I believe that it won't be very long
If we turn, turn, turn, turn, turn
Then we might learn
So where's the stars?
Up in the sky
And what's the moon?
A big balloon
We'll never know unless we grow
There's so much world outside the door
I want to sing
To sing my song
I want to live in a world where I'll be strong
I want to live
I will survive
And I believe that it won't be very long
If we turn, turn, turn, turn, turn
And if we turn, turn, turn, turn
Then we might learn
Turn, turn, turn, turn
Turn, turn, turn
And if we turn, turn, turn, turn
Then we might learn
Learn to turn

This wouldn't be the first song involving "turn" either, one of the big Max & Liz songs (as I'm sure many of you know) is "We Haven't Turned Around" by Gomez (played during their first kiss in "Heatwave").

What could the significance be of "turn" or "turning"? Turning back? Turning back the hands of time, (learning to?) possibly right wrongs of the past?

Melodious

Alex an crosses (albeit Swedish Flags) - he is also seen with a prominently displayed cross in Crazy (when Pirece approaches him in the car) So - are they foreshadowing that Alex is going to end up giving his life for his friends one day????

And - dont get me wrong - I like the cutie-Kyle lovin Tess BUT doesnt it seem odd that in EOTW she was going to leave town over Max and then in the next four episodes was getting closer and closer to him - but now - ever since MITC she has not had a single interaction with Max and yet seems happy as a clam to shop for Skittles with Kyle while Max camps out in the Crashdown to watch over Liz?? It just doesnt add up.
Are they ever going to EXPLAIN this????
And why do the Valenti's have so many SANTA CLAUS'es in their kitchen. Weird. It just all so WEIRD.
But HOW SWEET was Kyle when he told her not to go????

Oh - and does Valenti have a picture of STONEHENGE in his office???

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Oh - and does Valenti have a picture of STONEHENGE in his office???

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Hey StarBox!

Did you notice Tess is wearing the exact same offit she had on in EOTW when she finds Max on the park bench and asks him, if he wants her to leave. Are those her travelin' clothes?

Sorry it's little!

Also, I love the fact that Max and Liz are getting closer and they have both said without saying the actual words, that they still love each other and need each other. I think that maybe Max will find out after he has forgotten her "betrayal" the truth by a flash. I hope so.

Is is just me or was Isabel dressed more similar to Lonnie then the way she usually dresses? Do you think that that is a foreshadowing or just a different choice of clothing?

Also, did anyone else notice that the girl in Alex's picture, I forget her name, looked an aweful lot like Laurie?

I really enjoyed the episode tonight! Probably because it did truly balance the relationships with the Sci Fi! The scenes with Liz were wonderful, and the "growth" theme seemed to be central with respect to Liz now! I would like to see Liz with interact with Laurie - I bet Liz would have a calming influence on Laurie! And the "them" means there are other "aliens" around??? Ummmm..... (Whenever I hear "Them" I think of Giant Ants - I think I'm dating myself.) I loved the focus on Valenti tonight, and maybe Duff is not cut from the same cloth as Pierce? I can't figure out the whole Sean thing either! I sure hope they know where they are going with him - unlike Buffy, I'm not convinced the writers of Roswell always have things planned out. I like the actor who plays Sean (from Relativity and Felicity), and he has some interesting characteristics in this role, but ...

Anyway - CelestialAngel - I'm not going to be back until morning - SO PLEASE DO NOT SHUT THIS DOWN until then. I will have the new thread up first thing (8:15am PST) in the morning!

Qfanny - I hope that wasn't your car I saw slipping and sliding on the news tonight! Good luck with your fender!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe!

Qfanny, better your car's fender than yours!! I hope your neck is okay!

I assumed the Northern Lights reminded Liz of seeing stars when she kissed Max & how lo-o-ong it had been since they kissed. For us, it seems like it happened last week (and "us" would include Shiri & Jason). But for Liz, it was only a dream. Good acting.

Um, am I the only one who thought that Alex was snowboarding on Mt. Shasta? Do they really have a mountain that looks so much like it in Sweden?

I didn't notice the clothing but I did notice one of her mannerisms. Right as Isabel and Michael are about to go through the broken window into the hospital basement, look at the look on Isabel's face. It was just like Lonnie used to do. I immediately thought "Oh my gosh, it's Lonnie" but then I thought it was just something Katie does in real life. However, if you thought she reminded you of Lonnie then maybe we are on to something .

Please don't lurk! Come and post!
[/B]

I actually was the first one to go look up blue and yellow way back when. Since I don't see any of the stuff I originally posted at the site, I am going to post again and if you want Qfanny, you can add it to your site. All info. is from the Color Matters web site.

It was your post I was searching for then. I remember reading some incrediable color anaylise and I couldn't find it.

Thank you, I will notify maxcedo .

Moderator, Zero will have a new thread up and link this one to the new one this morning (PT). I would have been happy to check the thread, but I've got to go to work sometime.

shapeshifter, my neck is killing me.

Did you notice Tess is wearing the exact same offit she had on in EOTW when she finds Max on the park bench and asks him, if he wants her to leave. Are those her travelin' clothes?

Sorry it's little!

[/B][/QUOTE]

ROFL- YUP - those would be Tess's "Travellin Clothes" - she wears them in MTD when she travels to NYC too. Too funny.

Hey - I have a project for one of you mythologist/RBI who know about quilting. When Isabel is by Liz's window - INSIDE Liz's room is a white quilt with a blue traingle pattern thrown over a chair. I wonder if the
pattern is symbolic???? Anyone know what it is called?

Another thing - the "make it real" sign is now bothering me big time. You see it on the wall in the school when Liz/Maria talk with Alex. Now - here is the thing - this is the SAME exact sign that was OUTSIDE on the fence near the althletic field in Heatwave when Michael and Maria talk on the bleachers (right before she fakes her flashes).
Obviously - they dug this thing out of their prop storage and put it up intentionally in this scene.
And then Alex says "sometimes I look in the mirror and dont recognise myself". I dont know - its just bothering me bacause of the SIGN. Are they implying that Alex is less than "real"???

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I thought that she was remembering seeing stars, etc. from kissing Max way back last year

Zero Great job on the HJ synopsis--I think StarBox's mirrors should be included, too, but I also have no idea how'where! :love this line: "Her ultimate sacrifice will be the belief that she is normal." How true is that!

I have to get ready for work now, but I just wanted to say that I loved WAF. That 50/50 balance actually appeared tonight, and I for one couldn't be happier. Also, "We're friends plus." How cute! I that line
~Tas

I'm going to put this here and at the new thread when it opens, since we're so near the end of this one.

I noticed something about Sean - when Liz comes down into the CD to get the extension cord and finds Sean you can see the storeroom mirror between them. The mirror has a sticker on the bottom corner that says "conserve WATER". We see it in the Pilot, I think. Anyway, I saw the mirror in the background and Sean immediately made a water reference: "I'm going to the water show." Both quotes are mere paraphrases but the water association is definite.

So Sean=Water?

See you guys over on the new thread later today.

One last thing - notice where Liz wanted to go? Peru, New Zealand, Scandinavia to see the Northern Lights... Great travel list for her personal growth research, eh? She knows what she needs.

I thought he said car show?
Was it shapeshifter who thought Sean got out to spy on them? I think that's a really good possibility.
Re: Lonnie - did ya see the Michael/Isabel(?) moment in the previews? Oh, too weird. I loved the "You could have used your foot" - that was so what I would have done if I was Michael .

Oh, for gosh's sakes! I just watched it with closed caption - he said "auto show", not "water show." No wonder Liz said cars didn't interest her!!!!

I'm a goof. THat's what I get for watching Roswell at 4:30 in the morning on low volume so I won't wake my kids!!!!!!!!! (It actually airs at 4:30 here; isn't that awful?) I record it but I'm usually so excited about a new episode that I wake up at 4:25 in time to watch it as it broadcasts.

I loved having group scenes, the kids actually acting like a group of friends. I loved how they continued the Kyle/Max dislike. I LOVED how Liz was featured as a lead character again. Most of all I loved how the humans had lots of screen time and that they were shown to have relationships outside of their alien ones (Kyle/Jim, Liz/Maria/Alex).

Best scene...Liz and Max in the Eraser Room! How sweet, genuine, and true to their S1 characters.

Overall, I thought that the character continuity was very good. I like when writers don't forget that characters like/dislike eachother. For example, it was very fitting that Is, Liz, and Maria, were there to watch Alex's slides (as they are the closest to him).

Loved the Tess character again this epi, I really hope they stick with this personality!

This was definitely my fav. episode of the season.

bluecornmoon - I do think that travel can dramatically change a person (as it appears to have done for Alex). Actually, to clarify, I think the experiences one has while traveling can seriously affect a person. As part of my schooling, I traveled to about 11 countries. Coming back from all of that, I think I was VERY changed (though I do still recognize myself in the mirror ). Not trying to be picky, but I thought I would just mention that. Travel won't necessarily change a person, but their experiences will - for better or worse. Maybe we will find out more about that in another ep (though, considering the past record of TPTB, I doubt it).

Off to start the new thread! Please take all discussion over there to Thread #29!!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to) Believe!

Even though I still don't like the way Liz looks at Sean, and I still have yet to figure out why he was in those scenes last night Didn't see his purpose I have to agree that I'm sort of getting the feeling that Sean might be some type of protector of some sort, but I don't know we'll have to wait and see, my opinion of him has changed drastically from what I thought of him last week. And I'm sure after I see him in the next episode it'll change yet again

Traveling can give you a new outlook on life. It can really give you new prespective, but I have to say when I heard Liz ask Alex "Do I know you" and then Alex's reply being that sometimes he looks in the mirror and doesn't recognize himself, well that just made me think of the whole alien possesion thing. Could Alex be the next victim of it?? TPTB definitely don't throw out dialogue like this just for show.

Bring Back The Heart of Roswell

I just have a quick question for my fellow Liz Lovers. I heard a viscious rumor that Shiri is leaving the show. I shrugged it off to nonsense until I watched last nights We Are Family. It looked like she WAS leaving!

Anyone know anything about this? PLEASE say it isn't so!!