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Author: Zero
Level 3
Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 197
06-19-2000 11:10 PM
To those new to this thread - this is the 3rd thread on Liz's importance to the alien mythology and the pod squad. The 2nd thread, as the 1st one, got too long and might discourage newbies to join into the discussion. We (the collective "we" - meaning the frequent posters) thought we should start a new thread. The following is an ATTEMPT to summarize some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the original two threads - BUT I highly recommend that if you want to read an excellent in-depth analysis of how Liz might fit into the alien mythology and her importance to the pod squad that you spend the time to read the original two threads!
First - and foremost - the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). How she is important is where the fun comes in. Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a reverse connection (Pilot), that something changed in Liz - whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is - maybe from a past life on the pod squads planet or a previous life encounter with Max's alien "essence" or human DNA donor on Earth - but that the connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection.
Soulmates seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max's Destiny being Tess, many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from. The use of that DNA could have totally altered the "planned" destiny.
Liz is also viewed - when the episodes are rewatched - as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens' mythology (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton's place, making the initial contact with River Dog, etc.). She is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan. She could possibly be the equivalent to Max - whom we find out in Destiny is the former leader of his people. Liz is also a brain - which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the pod squad are just very advanced humans. Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the "powers" that the pod squad have? We will have to wait for next season, but many have expressed that they wouldn't be surprised if Liz is capable of some advanced powers in the future, and the her visions may be just a precursor to these.
Liz's visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize all the thoughts. Not only has she been able to "see into Max's soul," but also her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Most feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source - or a source internal to Liz just now being released. The visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it. Some wonder if others have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two "strangers" who mention - "We have to get rid of her" - in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was it intentional??
The picture was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived - a connection?? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia's involvement and her book about the Ancient Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these contacts? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the pod squad including the Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to "ancient languages" (e.g., Liz's Blind Date Doug Shellow's major at the UofNM and where the aliens' manual was hidden in the library) and Grandma Claudia's studies. Only coincidence - we think not!
Finally, (since you are probably losing interest) what is the connection to Hubble's wife?? The resemblence is amazing, and other parellels exist. Plus, the visions the Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble's wife at the death scene - meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the print come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max?
Oh, and Liz's ability to "see" into Max/Harding's "soul" might mean she may ultimately be able to "see the evil within." Most of us also think that there are more than one alien "watching" the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator) is a different alien watching out for them than Harding/Nasedo (assuming he is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two?
I know I haven't covered everything - that would be impossible - and I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to get some new input, and make this thread more accessible. Lots to think about!! So - theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz's importance to the mythology" are welcome. OH, by the way - if THE WB people read this - WE all agree that the Liz/Max connection is critical to the show and that together they make a force to reckon with!!
Zero
not of this earth
Level 1
Registered: May 2000
Posts: 35
06-20-2000 01:50 PM
Hi Zero! Thanks for the excellent summary. You really did a great job condensing all those theories!
Zero
Level 3
Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 197
06-20-2000 03:08 PM
I recently rewatched M2M and have a new take (though maybe someone raised thsi before) on Max/Harding and why he saved Liz from the House of Mirrors. It has always - and will continue to - bugged me how eager he was to kiss/make out with Liz - when she sees the black and white visions into his soul. I really think that he had a relationship with Hubble's wife - but had to end it due to his "duty" to protect the pod squad - or other "responsibilities" at the time (1970ish) and that her image is there because that is the last image he has of his lost love (I'm getting sappy here!). He has been hardened over the years, and then finally comes into contact with the pod squad who he is duty-bound to protect - only to discover that Max is in love with a girl (Liz) the spitting image of his lost love. That would explain why he was eager to have her to dinner and find out about her love life (TL&V).
When he kidnaps Liz, he temporarily relives that former life vicariously with Liz, only she sees "through" him and realizes he is not Max - bursting the bubble, and bringing him back to the reality of his "duty."
When they are in the car he makes a statement about having been people she can't imagine, but what really makes me think there is a previous connection with Hubble's wife is when Max/Harding and Liz are walking through the carnival, M/H makes a comment: "don't believe everything you see." Then when he does not respond to Liz's comment about not needing her anymore, he seems surprised at her statement about Max on his way to find her and how Max cares about her. When she states "You don't care about anyone!" He hesitates, takes a bite of cotton candy, and says "All I care about is protecting them, (looks at Liz) no one else matters." While this could be viewed as lack of emotion, I believe it begins to awaken some emotions that he is trying to suppress - based on his duty to protect the pod squad. Then in the House of Mirrors - the emotions erupt when Max actually does show up to rescue Liz - leading M/H to rescue her. He seems eager to kiss her when they run to the bus, but again Liz immediately realizes the truth and says - "You're Not Max!" M/H responds - "No, I'm not, and I've got to get him back!" (DUTY Calls!) Okay - it's out there - so what do you think??
Zero
Midnight_27
Level 6
Registered: Oct 1999
Posts: 1728
06-20-2000 03:17 PM
Thank you so much for summarizing that! I was about to go to the trends to read it... but it took to long to load every single one! Thanks again
CelestialAngel*
Level 4
Registered: Apr 2000
Posts: 847
06-20-2000 03:35 PM
I agree! I agree! I agree!
Zero-
I think you are so right! I have been thinking similar things about the Hubble's wife and Harding/Nasedo connection. Did you notice that in "Max to Max" he stares at her a lot! I think there had to have been some kind of connection between them! Also, I wanted to say that this would explain the reason for him taking her with him, and then in Destiny, not protesting when Max says "She's with me."
Perhaps he too knows that Max an Liz may share a destiny!
Oh, and Thank you for starting the new thread! I could not have summed all that we have discussed on the last thread, more beautifully!
GraceKel
Level 4
Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 765
06-20-2000 10:51 PM
Nice job Zero would like to add a few more if you don't mind.
Max telling Liz in the Pilot, "IT WAS YOU"
Liz telling her grandma at the end of LEAVING NORMAL "YOU ALWAYS MANAGED TO MAKE ME FEEL SO SPECIAL" Did Grandma Claudia know that Liz was special, why was she anxious to find out if Liz had found her soulmate?
Also in Leaving Normal the ORTHODONTISTS were they just TOOTH INVADERS-why did they say "HERE SHE IS" and things like "MAGNIFICENT" almost noticing her SPECIALNESS?
In 285S Max says "IT FEELS LIKE MY LIFE DIDN'T START TIL I TOLD YOU THE TRUTH THAT DAY"
In the BALANCE ep Liz says to Max, "IT IS THE ONLY REAL THING I HAVE EVER FELT"
In SEXUAL HEALING Liz tells Maria "BECAUSE IT FEELS RIGHT, IT FEELS RIGHT LIKE NOTHING IN MY LIFE HAS FELT RIGHT BEFORE"
In TLV Max tells Liz "I LOOK AT YOU AND I KNOW YOU'RE THE ONE I AM SUPPOSE TO BE WITH..."
In M2TM ep Max says "NO I BELONG WITH LIZ"
Zero as for your theory its as good as anyone elses, you could be right about Mr Harding having a thing w Mrs Hubble. I guess I have leaned against it because of the "OKAY WE'VE GOTTA GET RID OF HER" about Liz and I guess I thought that someone had to get rid of Mrs Hubble in the past for a similar reason and that it could be MR HARDING but this of course is wide open and could go either way. It would make for interesting plot twist anyway.
I am so glad that you stated for anyone involved with the show who might read this thread how important the MAX-LIZ connection is ABSOLUTELY CORE TO THE SHOW! I know for myself it was their connection that hooked me to the show and I always want it to be in the forefront!
deidra e, jones
Level 4
Registered: May 2000
Posts: 510
06-21-2000 01:01 AM
How about, That Max truly loves Liz, every since he first saw her, and when he healed her, his essence/being/love inadvertently was tranformed into her.
He did not feel the same way for Kyle, and therefore those particular ingredients were not transformed.
River Dog sensed it in "River Dog" and again in can't think of the name of the ep. when Michael got sick (copied cobb web off of the Star Gate SG1 show). When he told Maria that Liz "must follow her own path".
Just a thought, I will come back later.
I like this thread, and you guys are soooooo detailed and creative.
CelestialAngel*
Level 4
Registered: Apr 2000
Posts: 847
06-21-2000 09:48 AM
After watching River Dog, this week I realized something that may be of importance.
Its been many a time that teh end or during an episode Max and Liz hold hands or take each other's hand. Now, I know better than to read too much into things, but this seems like a message being sent out by the writers. I believe it more than just a gesture of Love!
The points in the episodes, in which M&L take each other's hands, are at important times of the episode.
EX1: RD:
In River dog its at the end when Max offers his hand to Liz and RD warns Liz to make sure he is worthy of her trust (yes i'm paraphrasing), yet she takes his hand.
IMPORTANCE:
Liz should have had fear instilled in her with all that RD told her and Max about teh alien killing Atherton, eevn thought Nasedo had befriended him. But she wasn't, adn she took Max's hand without hesitation.
Ex2:SH
In Sexaul Healing Max and Liz are seen hoilding hands as they enter the Crashdown to face the consequences of not going home.
This again is done in the end.
IMPORTANCE:
Liz and Max face the matter at hand together. They are empowered by one another. They enter together signifying (in my opinion)that they are ready to face both sets of parents together. One is no superior than the other, they are equals.
EX3estiny:
In Destiny when teh aliens are saying goodebye to their significant human other Max tells Liz something along the lines of her not having to go with him. She turns around and reminds him that he is not making her do anything she does not want to do, and that they choose their own destinies! They then take each other's hand and walk off to rescue Nasedo.
In the scene in which Nasedo is brought back to life or healed, Nasedo/Harding tells Max that Liz does not belong there, and Max tell him that she is with him!
IMPORTANCE:
The importance of the first scene is that Max and Liz realize together they're stronger. It is also another example of their equality. "Not one without th other" comes into play!
In teh second example, the scene shows that Max feels like he can't so with out Liz, that she is with him meaning she belongs there because of him. It even seems as thought Nasedo/harding can understand this.
I think the writers were making a point in this. Forgetting Tess and the whole destiny issue we can conclude for a moment how easy it is to see Liz as Max's soulmate!
I have to go, but later I will give my suporting details to this!
CelestialAngel*
Level 4
Registered: Apr 2000
Posts: 847
06-21-2000 11:41 AM
Zero-
I didn't quite get to finish, becuase I had to drive home! The commute form school is killing me! Tahnks for your thoughts, and for the mention of the "V" shaped constellation. I absolutey feel that the whole "Venus" theory applies.
I will post a little later with the details that I left out!
rocklowery
Level 3
Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 111
06-21-2000 04:58 PM
I don't know how this theory will fly, but here goes: In the human DNA thread I posted a possible theory of how the pod squad was engineered and how Sheila Hubble was tied into this as indicated by the flashes Liz saw when kissing Nacedo/Max. To sum it up, the baby she was carrying was Max's bride who's essence was lost when Sheila and the baby were killed.
If reincarnation is part of the alien mythology, could Max's bride have been reincarnated as Liz, thus making her the fourth, not Tess? (Maybe Tess was engineered by Nacedo to replace Max's bride) This would explain the initial images seen in the pilot when they connected with each other, each noticing the other when Max first arrives at the school and the intense responses we see in Sexual Healing could be the two souls reconnecting.
Melodious1
Level 1
Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 42
06-21-2000 06:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CelestialAngel*
After watching River Dog, this week I realized something that may be of importance.
Its been many a time that teh end or during an episode Max and Liz hold hands or take each other's hand.
OK... this doesn't really have to do with Max/Liz holding hands, but definitely sticks with the "handholding" idea.
This is stretching... but in DESTINY, I could have sworn there was an instance where Liz was holding Isabel's hand. They had all just reunited in the UFO Convention Center and Isabel and Liz were running in, side by side... and you don't actually *see* it, but the camera pans down to the floor, at Isabel and Liz's feet, particularly to the shadow on the floor... you see Isabel and Liz's arms "connected"... it very much seems that Liz grabbed onto Isabel's hand and is clutching it. The camera lingers on the "shadow" for a few seconds, the camera pans up again and you see Isabel and Liz running up stairs, still side by side (but you can't see their hands). Now I could be totally fishing for something that isn't there... but it *definitely* seemed to me that Isabel and Liz were holding hands. Now they could have just been scared... but why would Liz hold Isabel's hand? Max is understandable... could they be considered friends even? They do have a mutual care for Max...but Liz holding Isabel's hand isn't something that I thought I'd readily see. Or am I just crazy?
btw, I didn't catch this first, I remember someone else posting it just after the airing of DESTINY (I don't remember what thread or the original poster, sorry if you're out there).
Could this be significant in some way?
Melodious
GraceKel
Level 4
Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 765
06-21-2000 07:01 PM
Thanks again Zero for this updated thread and all your hard work on it. Yes the all important IS LIZ VENUS?
In the Balance "My parents are away for the weekend something about Venus being in the morning sky---a star gazing campout" and Max replies "And I thought she was right in front of me.
In Leaving Normal the orthodontists who say "HERE SHE IS" when Liz places down the first order it is a Venus something or other hmmmmm!
At the end of Balance we see Liz look up to the V CONSTELLATION.
Max and Liz connect at the end of Blind Date in that kiss and at the end of the connection appears that V constellation which seems (not sure just guessing) but seems to set off "I try to stay away but I cannot help myself, he obviously feels the same way! Distracted by Michaels problems in ID but already seem to be under some kind of BIOLOGICAL FRENZY which becomes full bloom in SH.
In FOUR SQUARE when they are looking up the V constell under Aries it says something about INDIAN FERTILITY RITUALS(the INDIAN connection again). Well I don't know about anyone else but it sure seemed to me like Liz was in heat! I suppose there could be a better way to put it but I could not think of it---maybe someone who is better with words could find a better way to describe it.
Melodius1 that was me who noticed the camera panning down in DESTINY on Isabel and Liz holding hands which reminds me of the same shadow when Max Isabel and Michael walk off holding hands in the BALANCE episode. I didn't know if I was reaching with this but the camera did seem to linger there so I assume there was a reason.
CelestialAngel*
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Registered: Apr 2000
Posts: 847
06-21-2000 07:13 PM
Melodious-
I saw that too! Liz takes her hand and in a sense pulls at Isabel and then together they run up the stairs. It could be an example of the closeness that the writers are begining to establish between Liz and the rest of the Pod Squad. Liz and Isabel have not been very close this past season, but they have had their instances. Maybe by Liz leading and then going up the stairs with Isabel in the manner that they did, it is telling us, that in a crisis Isabel has accepted Liz and her leadership qualities that she shares with Max!
Okay Now I am digging way to deep!
Sorry! But it is a possibility!
GraceKel
Level 4
Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 765
06-21-2000 07:15 PM
Celestial Angel never thought that deeply about the hand holding I just thought it was reinforcing the connection between them but I think if I am reading your theory right you are saying that they are finding extra strength in this connection like the group does in the books is that right?
Rocklowery your theory sounds like a plausible one to me---I have been unable to come up with a complete theory myself I just find all these little pcs.
Christy
Level 3
Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 138
06-21-2000 07:19 PM
Zero - A little off topic, but what is your screen name referring to? I recently read a book by ... Nylund and there is a Zero in the book and everytime I see your screen name I think of millions of butterflies surrounding me. (Not a bad image at all.)
Back to topic. I enjoy reading this thread, but spend most of my web time trying to keep up with the celebrity lurkers threads, so I have not had a chance to keep up.
I agree with most several of the theories that Liz's destiny also falls along the 'aliens' or 'enhanced humans' path. Your Max to the Max discussion is exactly what I was thinking. I hope the writers will read this thread and start using what they have already created instead of just starting new stuff all the time.
Also, along the lines of "My life didn't start until I healed you." statements that have been made multiple times. Without one another Max and Liz are not fully functional. (i.e. soulmate discussion.) Without each other they may not be able to fulfill their destinies.
~Christy
CelestialAngel*
Level 4
Registered: Apr 2000
Posts: 847
06-21-2000 07:41 PM
GraceKel-
Yes I am referring to the connection of the hands/energy focusing in the books! I just finished "the Vanished" and then when I rewatched some of the episodes it brought it to mind. But I think that perhaps the writers were insinuating, but didn't want to commit to the idea completely. Perhaps they are preparing The hand holding/focusing energy for next season!
then again i could be reading to much into it again!
I definelty think that whether or not its true, Max and Liz have a higher level of a connection whether it energy comprised or not! It might have been this energy in SH!
Loved your thoughts on the "V" and Venus constellation theory! I agree that its possible that Liz may have been in "heat", for lack of a better word, and that the whole SH episode had M&L in some sort of a biological connection. In WR Nasedo says something along the lines of "Biology lessons later" do you think he could shed some light on the whole SH episode. Perhaps he had a similar connection to Hubble's wife. Thus the pregnancy?
Alright I have no evidence for this so I better stop right now!Sorry to babble!
Zero
Level 3
Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 197
06-21-2000 07:52 PM
Christy - OT - I wish my screen name had to do with being surrounded by thousands of butterflies, but actually it has to do with my profession. I work in the environmental field, and "zero" comes from zerowaste. I used to post a lot on a "Felicity" board, and used that name, and it stuck. So what are the celebrity lurker threads about? I've never read one.
Back on topic -
Grace Kel - thanks for outlining all the Venus references. I totally missed the one when the "teeth" doctors were in town! I love how everytime I rewatch an episode something new jumps out at me that might be relevant. That goes also for the "hand-holding." In the books it has great significance due to the connective power of the group, but I don't know if the show will get into that - I hope it does.
Also, Rocklowery - most of us think that Shiela Hubble is tied into the mythology, too - but just not sure how. The fact that there was a old indian selling the fireworks, she looks like Liz, Hubble saw fireworks when kissing her and she was pregnant have to have some significance - we just have to wait to see if the writers help us connect the dots. As far as the DNA - I know there is another thread about this - BUT where is came from could be significant to Liz's connection to the pod squad. We have no clue as to when the actual "mixing" of the alien essence and the human DNA occurred - before leaving their home planet, on the way here, on Earth before the crash (assuming the crash occurred on take off), after the crash, after alien one or two escapes?? Just don't know, and timing could be important. It is hard to believe that incubation would take 40+ years! PLUS - this assumes that the pod squad is actually connected to the 1947 crash. WHAT IF they were brought on a later expedition?? Okay, time to go - but think about it!
Zero
GraceKel
Level 4
Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 765
06-21-2000 08:03 PM
CelestialAngel I have to admit that EVILMax as we call him did seem to enjoy Liz but since I tend to think of Mr Harding as one of the evils within (YET TO BE DISCOVERED) What I took away from M2TM ep when Liz says to Evil Max "you don't know what Max and I have.........he changed me" and Evil Max smiles (I think it is almost a knowing smile that it isn't that Max changed her it is that he knows that Liz is his true destiny and she(Liz) doesn't even know it which is good for him because he can play out his own agenda and that is why it kind of gives him a chuckle!
I am leaning more toward him being the one who murdered or attempted to murder Sheila Hubble because he was trying to prevent Max's destiny from being born. Mr Harding was too creepy for me in TLV to make him a good guy who fell for a human and quite frankly I would eventually like Mr HARDING AND Miss Tess to just DISAPPEAR!
Although I must admit I wouldn't mind seeing EVIL Max again---how did he still manage to be sexy I want to know?
shapeshifter
Level 3
Registered: May 2000
Posts: 320
06-21-2000 08:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by GraceKel
Liz says to Evil Max "you don't know what Max and I have.........he changed me" and Evil Max smiles
Perhaps Nasedo "changed" Hubble's wife and so found it 'necessary' to kill her?
On another idea:
In RD, the transcripts read:
RIVER DOG: Wait, wait. You're not one of them.
MAX: Liz?
RIVER DOG: Make sure he deserves your trust
This is being discussed on another thread. I can't help thinking that the transcript was taken from the tape and that the RD actor miss-read his lines. I was *sure* the meaning was:
RIVER DOG: Make sure you are worthy of his trust
So, I am wrong. I guess. Then How does this fit in with the importance of Liz? It seems to give her front and center importance and diminish Max. Or maybe it just implies that not all aliens are good aliens. Or maybe this was foreshadowing of Evil Max (who was pretty kewl to us viewers).
heifertipper
Level 3
Registered: Apr 2000
Posts: 119
06-21-2000 08:26 PM
Zero,
I completely agree with your theory on Hubble's wife and the possible relationship she may have had with Nasedo. The fact that Liz only saw one of his many victims in her vision definately made me wonder how important Sheila Hubble really is to Nasedo. Liz possibly reminded him of Sheila, and that may have been why she saw her in the vision in the first place and also why she got a vision from him at all. He may have felt a certain connection to Liz which initially lowered his guard. Supposedly a closed in person would not let any one see their soul. Ex. Micheal It has been mentioned that Liz may have the power to see into souls but it may not be necessarily true ( I know that Liz could just be unusually receptive, but the fact that she never saw any visions with Kyle shows that she doesn't have the complete power, but this could only be because she did not have stong enough feelings for Kyle)
I don't know if this was already mentioned but I also noticed the way Nasedo reacted when he found Liz and Max sleeping next to the radio tower in Sexual Healing. He almost looked as if he approved of them. It may have reminded him of his relationhip with Hubble's wife. When nasedo found them, his reaction definately was not what I was expecting.
RBS722
Level 4
Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 663
06-21-2000 09:22 PM
First and foremost, I would like to say that if Jason Katims ever hits a writers block, he should come here to get ideas. I have to say i never actually thought of this stuff before, until after seeing the episodes again.
Personally, I know Liz's connection with max is very special. But I think its not just from the healing. I think it is in response to max letting her see into him. That's when I feel they really made the connection that gave her the powers to see visions. Because remember, when he healed her, she didn't see anything. It was only until he came to her later that she saw the visions of him as a child and then older looking at her. I also find it funny that when they were healing kyle, max did not see any visions of Kyle's past. That is significant, because now we know that the connection liz and max made was more than just a healing of the body, but a healing of the mind, body, and soul. What it is, i have no idea. But im sure everyone has their theories.
I don't think liz has anything to do with his previous planet, because in the pilot, we see human cells when she checks her blood. But i do think she has certain gifts that distinguish her from other humans. Maybe...when tess was left back and max michael and isabel went together out of the pods, maybe the destiny was changed. Maybe they thought tess was dead and now designated liz as his destiny. The first time he sees her is when he falls in love with her. And he knew she would be different in that she would be more understanding. It only took the healing to bring that destiny to life.
Ok, i don't know if anything i just wrote made sense. But i hope someone figures it out.
RBS722 aka teddybehr in chat
CelestialAngel*
Level 4
Registered: Apr 2000
Posts: 847
06-21-2000 09:37 PM
RBS722-
Hey that is a great Theory!I don;t really know about the whole past life connection pertaining to Liz but I do know that Max and Liz are really soulmates! One area of your thoery that I wish had been realized was Tess's death! Sorry!
WEll back to the topic....
I hope now that Moore is joining the writing team, he will be able to clarify all our questions and dig deeper into the subject of Liz's importance. Because in my mind there is no doubt that there is a connection! I also hope to see if my "holding of tthe hands theory" is as important as I make it to be!
rocklowery
Level 3
Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 111
06-21-2000 09:54 PM
I also noticed the hand holding between Liz and Isabel when they were entering the UFO center and thought it was kind of strange. I thought it might be due to nervousness, a way to comfort each other. I've noticed that Liz and Maria do a lot of hand holding or going arm-in-arm into situations which isn't surprising since they are best friends.
It seems to me that a growing friendship has been building between Liz and Isabel. I noticed the start of it in 285S when Liz spilled the hot cocoa. They've been getting progressively closer with each episode. In Heatwave they have that nice chat while polishing their toenails and Isabel changes the color of Liz's clear nailpolish as a nice gesture of friendship, and in SH Isabel is truly sympathetic with Liz's confusion when she shows up at Michael's place. Both Michael and Isabel seem to be accepting Liz as part of their "family."
As for a 40+ year incubation for the pod squad, the only explanation I can think of is they were in stasis during the trip, which I know sounds kind of hokey. Also, how could they have survived the trip and wouldn't the military have collected all the debris from the crash site? The pod chamber also appears to be constructed directly into the rock face. Since this would've taken Nasedo a while to build on his own, I would think they were either brought later or engineered on Earth.
Roswell_Amanda
Level 3
Registered: May 2000
Posts: 327
06-21-2000 11:05 PM
OK so I'm sure this may have been posted already but this is what I was just thinking:
OK, the ships crashes and the pods are put somewhere. One pod is destroyed. So, Nasedo finds and kills a pregnant women, takes the fetus and (if they are advanced) somehow injects the fetus with alien DNA or whatever they call it. This would be the reason that Tess came out later than the others? When was Hubble's wife killed? Maybe Tess was created later than the other three, giving the reason that she came out late. BUT, the original pod that was destroyed, had an essence that got passed on to Liz somehow. Maybe. I dunno. Just a thought.
Zandria
Level 1
Registered: Jan 2000
Posts: 47
06-21-2000 11:22 PM
I just thought I'd add my two cents. I've been thinking alot lately about the bond between Max and Liz. And you can tell that they have a deep love for eachother. This has been shown throughout the season. One instance, is when pierce showed the picture of Liz lying dead. Now, if never actually seen the episode, but I've heard a sound clip from it. And I don't know about anyone else but it sounded like his soul was being ripped from him. It get's me choked up whenever I listen to it(imagine what it'll be like when I actually watch the ep Any way if you ask me this proves that Liz is important to the alien's mythology. If Max lived before and Liz is his soulmate which i believe than, either it was Max's Destiny to come to earth and meet Liz or they had a destiny in the previous life and are just reuniting in this lifetime. Hope all of this makes sense and isn't just rambling.
Phaedra
Level 3
Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 227
06-22-2000 07:09 AM
Keep those theories coming! I love this thread, although it makes me feel very unobservant!
BTW, when did you start Parts 1 and 2? I'd like to go back and read them, but with so many pages and no dates, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.
Thanks!
[Edited by Phaedra on 06-22-2000 at 07:58 AM]
CelestialAngel*
Level 4
Registered: Apr 2000
Posts: 847
06-22-2000 07:27 AM
Zandria-
WR is such a wonderful episode adn it reveals some information pertaining to the aliens. The more I rewatch teh episodes, and read this thread, I can't help but think Max and Liz have a purpose he on Earth to fulfill. He may be an alien and she human, but in reality they are both human. He just has some alien essence mixed into him.
The whole "save the planet" idea is great for adventure, but you can't do certain things on your own, no matter what kind of powers you may have. You alwyas have to depend on soemone, as Nasedo proved when he was on the reservation and then when trusting Atherton.
Max has the best kind of help...Liz. He saved her life so without him she would be dead, and vice versa. The emotions and physical atrributes that may have been exchanged between them are intergalactic, but the basic principal of Love and trust is still there!
How did Max know that Liz was different and wouldn't tell?
Some may say its because he liked her or loved her from afar. But If I had a crush on someone I would definetly not tell them my Deepest Darkest secret, that could possibly get me killed along with my friends and sister!
Lets be realistic, and accept that they are connected somehow. In life we tend to have someone who is there guiding us, whetherit be a higher source or a friend. I believe That unbeknownst to Max's mother and his home planet, Tess was never really Max's destiny, especially if it was an arranged marriage(my theory) adn that Liz is that person for the Pod Squad, especially Max. I think that he did have to die, and his planet did have to become enslaved so that he could be with Liz, just like Liz had to get shot for him and the Pod Squad to find out where they come from and why they were here on Earth!
I know, I know, me and My Romance!
Zero
Level 3
Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 197
06-22-2000 09:51 AM
Phaedra - The first thread was started a couple of months ago by me (Zero), and then the next one was started by Shapeshifter when the second one got too long - about a month ago. I will try to find them and bump them up for those who are interested in reading all the fantastic theories and observations made by those visiting these threads. There is a wealth of ideas out there, and I will be curious to see if the writers pick up on any of them!
Back later when I have more time!
Zero
WaterSprite
Level 1
Registered: May 2000
Posts: 28
06-22-2000 11:44 AM
Zero,
I was reading your beginning post regarding Sheila Hubble, and I wondered if possibly her child could be Nacedo's. Perhaps he wasn't trying to kill her, merely check the progress of his child and the guilt of her death drew him to her look alike Liz. Kind of out there, I know, but I had to mention it.
GraceKel
Level 4
Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 765
06-22-2000 12:22 PM
Shapeshifter here is my take on the RIVERDOG thing. When he says to Liz, "wait you are not one of them, make sure he deserves your trust!". I think he is admitting that he does not trust Nasedo because although originally he befriended everyone on the reservation he ultimately only trusted Riverdog and Atherton, Riverdog believes that Nasedo killed Atherton so maybe now he thinks that Nasedo is dangerous and brings death like the NECKLACE--SYMBOL(remember the coyote howling in the woods Riverdog seemed afraid to me) I do not think he trust Nasedo. In the Balance episode he tells the the six of them in the cave, "the elders thought he was and EVIL SPIRIT.....BUT I WAS A BOY AND I WOULDN'T LISTEN. To me he is almost telling us that he was too immature to see the DANGER then! Now here comes MAX all these years later who is NOT LIKE Nasedo he is part human but all Riverdog knows is he should be suspicious and that maybe Liz should be suspicious as well. Quite frankly I think Pierce who came across so EVIL in the WHITE ROOM might be used to dealing with EVIL ALIENS not like MAX which is why he treated him so badly!
I know they are having this ongoing conversation on the other thread about why is Riverdog connected to Michael and not Max but I don't think it is that, I think that it is Nasedo who is connected to Michael. Michael is the only one who can read the maps and the signals because they are meant for him, because I think he was born along with Tess to screw up Max and Isabels destiny to be with humans. I think that somehow something went wrong and........I think Riverdog was surprised the Max and Isabel came into the woods for that message because the message was for Michael not them--that is why they were saying, what does it say and only Michael knew. That is why Michael is different, why he is the least trusting of humans and the like and why he did not even trust Max and Isabel for a long time. That is why Michael got sick like Nasedo did, but lucky for Michael he has been away from this evilness and I believe in the long run will help to overcome these origins. Just a theory but til something totally knocks me off this theory I am sticking to it. Michaels powers began working better since his kind have been around as well have you noticed? This also explains why he feeling bad about himself, I am a killer(sad) and you are a healer! I trust he will come out on this right side of this in the long run but there could be some temptation along the way.
GraceKel
Level 4
Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 765
06-22-2000 12:36 PM
Heifertipper, some of us do believe that Nasedo who was there in the desert smiling over Max and Liz was a different one than the Ed Harding one, he might have even been a different one who befriended everyone at the reservation and Mr Harding(Mr Evil) might have shapeshifted into him and killed Atherton making it look like the GOOD NASEDO(oh wow the mind is boggling-if we don't get some answers soon)! Some believe that the one who killed Hank is not Mr Harding, do you see?
Hey all of you guys writing about Nasedo impregnating Sheila Hubble-I am trying to open myself to this but am having trouble because if this was the case then why would he be against Liz? Because he doesn't know who she really is? Is that what you are trying to say? I am not sure I am getting it but sometimes it takes me awhile so be patient! Would this make him a good guy? I don't get it?
DivaDoes
Level 3
Registered: Oct 1999
Posts: 144
06-22-2000 12:38 PM
ZERO?!
It this my "Felicity" Zero, over at the Roswell board? Hey Lady, how are you these days?
I saw your name on the "front door" to the Roswell forum and I thought I'd peek my head in to say hello.
Give me a shout when you get the chance, by the way, are you not over at the "Felicity Fan Forum" these days? I tell ya, it's difficult for a diehard Noel fan to be a part of that place right now. All the Noel supporters seem to have disappeared.
Either way, talk to you later.
SD aka DivaDoes
GraceKel
Level 4
Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 765
06-22-2000 01:11 PM
Hey DIVADOES I use to watch Felicity but it turned me off when Felicity chose BEN over Noel well not right away cuz they did show it as a mistake for awhile but now the story has gone way out of whack for me and now everyone is changing partners, I hope ROSWELL NEVER MAKES THIS AWFUL mistake cuz I no longer watch Felicity because of it. I loved Noel.
freewill
Level 2
Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 81
06-22-2000 01:13 PM
This is such a great thread. I think some very interesting points have been brought up. I too also think that there is more to the story than just meets the eye, especially with Liz. I mean why is she always getting the visions and seeing the v-shaped constellation. And how was she able to see visions from Nacedo too. I truly believe Liz is more important than we know. Some things just don't quite add up. Like many of you said before how does Hubble's wife fit into the picture. I understand why Nacedo killed the FBI people but what reason did he have to kill Hubble's wife unless there something we don't know. And what about river dog and Atherton. And what about Liz's grandmother. I know this has been said before but isn't interesting that the book she was writing on was about the Indians? And then there's the subject of Tess. I still can't understand why she broke out of the pod later than the others. I mean shouldn't they have have all come out at the same time. And one thing has been bugging me. In four Squared when Max was remembering, why were Isabel and Michael so anxious to leave. Max at first wanted to stay but then he decided to leave too. Why? Perhaps they sensed something was wrong with Tess and so they left her. Perhaps she was dead and this is an imposter. And another thing, how come it took Tess and Nacedo so long to come back to Roswell and find the others. As resourceful as they seem to be it wouldn't have taken much to find the three others if they were really looking. That's just one more reason to be suspicious. Why now and not sooner. Things must be explained next season. I truly hope that we find out that Liz is important to the aliens. It just would suck if she went from being the main character to going into the backround. If they are going to go more sci-fi then they should make Liz part of the new storyline. Plus I think it would make an interesting plot. Tess not really whom she seems, Nacedo has a dark secret and hidden agendas, Liz discovers that she has a bigger role than she thought and coping with it, evryone having to deal with the new information and figure out where it leaves them. And why are Michael's powers similar to Nacedos. Nacedo told Michael that all their powers were human powere just advanced but if Nacedo is completely alien wouldn't his powers be different. And since these powers are human, doesn't that mean that anyone could do it. What if by Max healing Liz and having an almost an unacanny connection with her somehow awakend her own abilities from within. That might explain how she was able to see inside Nacedo's head. So many questions, so many possibilities that could happen. I just hope the writers don't just forget all this stuff and we do get some answers next season.
GraceKel
Level 4
Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 765
06-22-2000 01:33 PM
I so agree Freewill so many questions and not enough answers and I think I am going to go crazy if they don't start answering them next season! I really think the writers already know the importance to the viewers of the Max and Liz connection and we have just all panicked about the SCI FI aspects coming to the forefront but from the sounds of the R MOORE he seems like a good writer to have on board so I am trying not to worry.
Zandria
Level 1
Registered: Jan 2000
Posts: 47
06-22-2000 01:45 PM
I just have to ask everyone if the think that Liz's importance, has anything to do with the relationship with her Mother. Because to me it has always seemed a little strained, she seems to be closer to her father and Grandmother than she is to her mother, perhaps their's a reason for all this?
CelestialAngel*
Level 4
Registered: Apr 2000
Posts: 847
06-22-2000 01:48 PM
freewill-
A lot of the points you made have been made before! And again I have to say that I so hope that Tess is evil! I also think its too much of a coincidence, that she "hatched" after everyone else and that Nasedo was ther for her and not the others. Liz is Max's true soulmate. She has been too important so far to not become more important next season. I agree with a lot of your points, and I know that the writers will Bring Liz into the big picture. And its not a picture Tess can manipulate. either!
freewill
Level 2
Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 81
06-22-2000 01:48 PM
I hope so too. I would be so mad if the new season doesn't answer anything and changes Roswell into a different show. Why can't they work with the great stuff they already have.
huggybehr
Level 2
Registered: Apr 2000
Posts: 91
06-22-2000 02:25 PM
Hi everyone, I have a theory to throw into the pot, which connects Sheila Hubble and Liz. I have not seen this one suggested before, but if someone else has come up with it before, I apologise.
What if Sheila Hubble was the 4th Alien? If the pod squad were incubating since 1947, could she have been born early, left the cave and later met and married Mr Hubble. If Max, the alien makes Liz, the human see stars, then substitute fireworks for stars and you know what I mean! Nasedo then tracks Sheila Hubble down and kills her when she refuses to leave her husband and go with him. If you believe in reincarnation, then Liz could be the new vessel for the soul of Sheila Hubble/Max's young bride. It sure looked like recognition to me when Max first saw Liz, and he somehow knew she was different and could be trusted with the secret.
The fact that the Tess-induced memory of the pod squad's emergence from the cave, is so different to Max's version to Liz in the balance, lends more weight to the theory that Tess is a fake, engineered by Nasedo to replace the lost original. Someone (sorry I forget who) suggested that there was a wormhole in the black and white vision Liz sees from Nasedo/Max, this may be how Nasedo returned to the home planet to retrieve another alien essence to replace the lost one, or he deliberately killed Sheila Hubble and replaced her with Tess for his own purposes. Tess may actually believe she is who she claims to be, or she could be in on it (not sure yet). This theory could also explain why Tess 'hatched' later than the others and seems more childlike, as she would not have had as much time in the pods to mature.
This may be way out there, but what do you think?