Background

We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, season after season (a little optimism there about a Season 3! ), finding “clues” to Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology and other relevant topics – and there are a lot of them (WAY MORE than I can ever summarize here)! – and then developing theories and potential storylines based on these (often well hidden) clues! Shapeshifter and Qfanny have graciously agreed to set up a single link to the former threads that are available to read (if you have a week or two or three or four). You can find it at the following link http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology (but be patient, they will have thread #29 up in good time ) . Starbox does a wonderful job of posting pictures relevant to our discussions up front for reference! Thanks! Metaphysical is also gathering questions to put to a Set Decorator from Roswell, since the set decoration, etc. seems so important to our analysis. We hope they know of our appreciation! We are hoping to get a connection soon! I will let you know once one comes through.

The following is a LONG summary (oxymoron?) of some of the clues, thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I have been trying to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled; however, not all clues identified are listed or theories are covered in-depth (remember, I – Zero – am a mere human being with limited human brain capacity, so can only retain so many details).

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings – especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance! We are an up-beat and friendly – though seriously anal retentive – group! So – dive in, and join the fun!!

Liz is Important – The Liz/Max Connection

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions – or is it time zones? - recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz and felt a special connection to her. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all apparently due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that “connection” irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t totally let go of the connection. After events in NY, Max seems willing to give their Friendship another try, and in “A Roswell Christmas Carol,” his turning to Liz for help in his time of need, only confirms that even more. As Max says in the end – once Liz has helped him overcome his trial of conscience – he “believes in her!” In the Hybrid Chronicles it is obvious that Max still cares deeply for and worries about Liz, but is trying to respect her need to be kept out of “it.” But, once again – with the discovery of the Blue Goop – he has to turn to Liz for help. And as usual, Liz is the one to help move them to the solution to the problem.

There is MORE to the Liz/Max connection than just a romantic relationship, as we have always assumed. She is his trusted advisory, his sound of reason, she is the yin to his yang (or is he the yin to her yang? ), and she helps him connect to his human side, finding that there is strength in his humanity! BUT - Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions regarding that connection have been answered this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Consequence of the Connection – the Change?

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz. We now know from the events in MITC that LIZ WAS CHANGED, and is developing powers, but how come?! How has that change come about? Whether the change in Liz was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Apparently Future Max knew Liz had the potential to “change” since he made the comment that she wasn’t letting it happen, but did he know the true potential of that change and what initiated it or prevented it from occurring? Is Liz’s “change” only a result of Max “bringing her back,” what Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply – or is there something more involved! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squad’s planet (Antar)? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? Could she be the “true bride” – only sent on a different ship to prevent easy discovery, with Tess serving as an unknowing dupe. But if so, and she is part alien, why did she disappear in Wipeout? She did cause the Skin’s shed skin to disintegrate, but that could have other reasons for occurring. Maybe she is purely human, but contains the “true bride’s” essence – but in a different configuration than the Hybrid pod squad?)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” and romanced a predecessor to Liz – but was called back to Antar, leaving his true love behind.
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. But, why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz? Could Tess/Ava be a ruse – as mentioned above - to protect the true queen, Liz, from being discovered before she has time to develop her powers that would protect her and her loved ones?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.) However, Liz is Max’s most trusted advisor, and the one most likely to keep him staying the course!
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies, such as the Key to operating the Granolith – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her? (If you watch “Buffy,” think of the storyline with Dawn as the Key be sought by Glory!)
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Antar? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Granolith and the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story? Ava had heard this story foretold during her previous life on Antar of a special human who would be brought back to life by their king, and would ultimately be the source of salvation for their world as well as her own?
· Could it just be Liz's extremely advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the MANY theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special all his human life – and he never connected with Ava the way one would have expected if she was his mate even though they had (we assume) spent their entire life on Earth – in the NYC sewers - together. I guess we will never know unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones (all 5 of them w/ Liz present) – anything is possible? We don’t know what happened to his body!) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her. (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?” [paraphrasing]) Liz looks directly at Max as he gets off the bus, with a sort of recognition. They obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were friends and lab partners more recently. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that we know are all human (according to Harding in WR). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking already – yet dormant – powers existing within her? Ava’s reaction to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle (Buddha Boy?), and all the kids in the hospital? There seems to be more to initiating the “change” than just the healing! Though Kyle may develop his own powers someday (though maybe changing TV channels is not one of them ), and so could the kids?

Origin of the Connection – Where is Liz from, really?

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins! A few of the common questions raised include:
· Are her parents her “true” birth parents or is Liz adopted like the Evans kids?
· Did Grandma Claudia have a relationship with an alien that passed something on to Liz?
· Does Liz have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race?
· Why does Liz look so much like Sheila Hubble?
· How does all this play into the connection with Max and Liz’s new found “abilities/powers”? (The first of her “powers” appearing to be astral projection.)
· Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur?

We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) There seems to be many clues that point to this possibility – but nothing definite. We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the Antar conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. These races could be of common decent, or there could be many variations. We know from White Room that the alien that was studied had a cerebral cortex similar to ours (humans), that did not have a bone structure like ours – thus, the shock that Max did. Could the similarities that the alien had be due to a common ancestor to humans – one that traveled to Earth many years ago either colonizing Earth or intermingling with the humans here. We don’t know for sure that the alien that was studied was a shapeshifter – we just assume it was, but it could have been another alien, different from the shapeshifters, that was on board the ship (or another ship that crashed.) We also know that the Skins (who are NOT Skins on Antar – only on Earth – so how did Nasedo know what they called themselves?) share powers common to the pod squad whose powers are all human. Why are these powers so similar if they don’t have a common ancestry? Does this mean that the beings that are Skins are from the same race of beings that the essences of the podsters are from? Will humans – like Liz – be able to eventually acquire some of these powers?

Rath sarcastically comments about how hard it is to travel through space to Earth – thus the need to possess humans long-distance – but the podsters obviously got here somehow (and fairly quickly if the comments concerning the warring for 50 years is correct - I will explain this if you don’t get what I mean – just ask) – so travel to and from Earth must be possible and not unreasonable from a time point of view. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ Antar predecessors from long ago? Could Liz and Max have a common ancestor – from long, long ago? (AND I’m not talking incest here – just a common ancestor like all humans do!)

Granolith – How does it fit in?

We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Whitaker and Courtney seemed to think it was a means to their salvation – but why? It is obviously of great importance! Could the Granolith be like a Holy Grail of the V constellation? The “Holy Grail” was meant to be found by a man with a pure heart who will use it to feed the hungry and heal the sick, and with it will bring peace and happiness to the land. So – whose heart is the purest in Roswell? Could it be Liz? The Granolith could be like Excalibur from the King Arthur tales, to be used as an instrument of the righteous, by a good man (or woman) for a good cause. So – who fits that description? Max? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? If it is only a transport system, I doubt they would have had such a concerned reaction – so there must be more to the Granolith than that. Some have speculated that it might be the energy source for a hidden ship – which it makes sense that a ship for return to Antar would be hidden “in plain sight” somewhere in the Roswell! But, I think it is more than a mere power source – though maybe a power source in the Grand sense of the term!

Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the prophesized protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Liz has yet to see the Granolith. Maybe it will react when she enters it. Maybe Liz holds something within her that is the key to the operation of the Granolith! Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time? Apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way before their discovery? So, many questions – still! … ! The speculation continues! Oh, AND Why hasn’t Max asked Liz point blank how she knew about the importance of the Granolith?! Umm…..

Destiny – Liz and Max!

Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess {I’m no longer going to use the snake sign for Tess since attending a Reptile seminar and learning Snakes are our friend! Anyone have a sign for a rat?}, many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his original “destiny” on Antar when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a “human” alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Many posters have wondered “Why?” send the Hybrid pod squad (in duplicate form) to Earth if there wasn’t some benefit to being Human and on Earth. Obviously, distance from their home planet was not one of the benefits. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction. Maybe she had “heard” the prophecy? (I am ignoring the cut scenes that Rooney posted that explained that the Dupe’s shapeshifter had warned that anyone they brought back would be changed, not necessarily for the better, because if it is not aired, it might not be the way the writers/producers have decided to take the show.) Zan’s “searching for someone” that Ava spoke briefly about, also seems to imply that he felt someone special was out there that he was meant to connect with – maybe Liz or Serena – I guess we will never know unless he is “brought back” somehow.

Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is a hot topic in the news right now with the publishing of the Genome Project! And is the pod squad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are (supposedly) “human” according to Harding. (I’m not going to get into it in this Intro – but the fact that the Skin’s powers are similar to the pod squads’ powers – which are advanced human powers – which are supposed to be similar to the powers they had on Antar seems to imply that humans must be capable of the these powers someday and have a common ancestor with the Skins and pod squaders in the distant past – Ummm …! )

Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters and her memory retrieval does not seem very complete! (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess :rat: , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time – though TPTB seem to be softening her character with the Kyle interaction!) Though the Dupes do seem to have memories of their past lives – at least Lonnie appears to - we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. Also, are the visions Max’s previous alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone (i.e., Tess, another shapeshifter) or somewhere (i.e., Granolith, Antar) else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! What else is stored deep within him, and can he get to the point he will be able to freely access and prevent having it MRd out of him? AND what is stored deep within Liz, waiting for the appropriate time to be released??

There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history “destined” to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the small amount of what we know of past podster actions. Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself in MITC - Zan was killed through treachery on Antar, then New Zan was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max (a Zan Hybrid) survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized, and Max has commented many times: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no?? Maybe they make their own destiny with a little help from their Human Friends!

Follow Your Heart

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons. Grandma Claudia told Liz to promise to always follow her heart wherever it leads her (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again (MITC and ARCC). He has even stated that he believes in Liz, and though this is meant more in a friendly way than a romantic way, it is a sign that Max is following his heart back to her! But Liz’s heart seems to be in a state of confusion with the introduction of Sean! But maybe, just maybe, her interactions with Sean will only convince her heart more than ever that Max is her true soulmate!

Symbolism – WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

The symbolism throughout the both seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! (WE love the Set Decorators! ) I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47, and prominently in the background at the Deluca Residence! Are Max and Liz the two diamonds hiding in plain sight? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often and everywhere (e.g., Valenti’s front door, Michael’s wallpaper).

Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! Liz could be the Trojan Horse in which something of great importance is hidden. There is a prominent picture of a Ship between Max and Maria when they are discussing his love for Liz. The old Scandinavian tale of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his score "The Flying Dutchman," symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love. In desperation the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful. Senta, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears that she will be faithful to the Dutchman unto death. However, in doing so, she betrays her fiancé Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she was trying to save. The Dutchman puts out to sea, but his vessel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned. HOWEVER - the pair are now seen RISING from the now-CALMED waters, TRANSFIGURED and REDEEMED by their SACRIFICE. Salvation is not a impossibly idealistic dream, but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality.

Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. Yvonne “White” was the nurse that disappears in Summer of ’47. And there is another White that shows up on the Silverhandprint site! Max lights a “white” pinecone in ARCC. The ancient Greeks and Assyrians viewed the pinecone as a symbol of masculinity because of its phallic shape, and it represented both fertility and immortality. As the emblem of Artemis, it represented feminine purity. It was also the emblem of the Roman goddess Venus. In Christianity, the pinecone forms the crown of the Tree of Life. Because of its swirling form, it is associated with dynamic generative and cosmic power. Here we see Venus is mentioned and also the Tree of Life (remember the women on the reservation told Liz that was what the symbol was on the necklace) also feminine purity seems to play an important role for Liz at this point. (Thanks Evid!) (And this is just the tip of the iceberg! We go on for pages about this stuff!)

Then there is the Dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. We were in the "year of the dragon." Here are some Dragon “meanings”:
· In the Chinese Horoscope, the Dragon is in the FIFTH ranking order.
· The Dragon's corresponding western sign is ARIES.
· The Dragon’s ruling planet is VENUS.
Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her (unless dragons have been popping up on other characters’ windows?). But since it was the year she discovers that she had “powers,” it is reasonable to think of her as being “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon … as the Dragon. (Thank You Meloudious 1, Starbox and Bluecornmoon, Charmed Kitten for your thoughts on the Dragon!)
Then there is the Arthur C. Clarke book, “Childhood’s End” that is found in “Four Squares” (Thanks reguru!). Following is a summary written by a reader on Amazon – a coincidence? “It is ...in this book the "Overlords" are a mysterious, powerful, but ultimately tragic group of beings that have vastly potent minds, but that cannot undergo the spiritual metamorphosis that would take them into direct communion with the sort of Godhead that directs their (and human) destiny. I liked Clarke's ideas about utopia, which is more or less what the Earth becomes after a few generations under the guidance of the Overlords. He seems to have had a lot of fun playing with ideas about future art forms, for example, among other things. However, this utopian society is doomed, because of an unforeseen, quantum leap in evolution, that turns out to be an evolution of the communal spirit. Clarke has a lot to say here about what connects us to each other, as human beings. Are we all linked with some higher being at the level of spirit, in the manner that islands would be revealed to be all linked, if one were to somehow drain the world's oceans? Or is striving toward a planned, ordered, social utopia, with allowances made for developing all of every individual's gifts to the fullest possible degree, the best way to relate to each other?...” Interesting??
Stars show up often, both the five-pointed and the six-pointed star. It turns out that the six-pointed star, which is often linked to Judaism, has many other meanings. In the Middle Ages, for example, alchemists used it to symbolize the "quintessence," and "quintessence" is another word for "fifth element."
Alchemists also believed that the symbol of two overlapping lines with four arms of equal length had special meaning:

or

And we do see variations of this symbol in Roswell:

and

(It's hard to see it here, but look at the spaces between the squares)
Alchemists believed while each arm stood for an element (earth, water, fire, air), the point at which the lines of they intersected represented the fifth element. From their point of view, the fifth element was basically the intangible thing that makes up a human soul. Remember when Max tells Liz in Destiny: "Knowing you has made me human." In certain branches of science the diagonal cross symbolizes crossbreeding (hybridization) between two species or races. It is sometimes associated with Christ, and in ancient Chinese, it stood for the number 5. (Thanks Czech Please!)

There are lots of other symbols and clues to pick up on! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent and clever for that!

The “Bride” – will the real one please stand up!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? OR could it be referring to Liz who was also standing right there? AND Why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day, and never acknowledged Tess as Max’s mate!) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride with Max in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. What if Tess was sent to deceive the enemy, and the Real Bride was sent in a separate ship – and somehow the Real Bride’s essence ultimately ended up in Liz.

Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts were needed to defeat the enemy. Maybe Tess is a warrior, led to believe she was the bride, when she really wasn’t. (Bad Boy Harding!!) And why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? Since their shapeshifter seemed to teach them so much, wouldn’t they have known the importance of keeping the unit together? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection previously or at the same time? They never mention seeing a Mom’ogram.) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was the Mom’ogram pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is Antar still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?) housing the heads of the allied forces?

The Books – WHY Doesn’t anyone read these things?

Concerns similar to those raised about the Mom’ogram have been raised about the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? And why do the pictures look just like our grown Roswell podsters and not their punkish Dupes? Did the Dupes receive a similar book? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the pod squad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Why does Max have writing on his forehead, but no one else does?

Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there is any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!) SCOOBY GANG - READ THE BOOKS! READ THE FILES! ASK MORE QUESTIONS!

The Catalyst – Liz!

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are re-watched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, connecting with Max to save his life in NY, coming up with the idea that helps Max restore his balance in ARCC and figuring out the Blue Goop is a parasite, etc.). Liz is a Leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan. (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max “fall out of love with her.”) The Pod Squad would be no where without Liz!

Vision Quest – How does Liz fit in?

Liz could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we now know is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment. (Who knows who and what to believe on this one??) Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” or complement Max, and bring him into “balance”? Max seems to believe that Liz is his voice of reason, and knows him better than anyone else – even Iz! (We learn this from the JK and JB commentary on ARCC.) Could Liz possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence (combined with her connection with Max) mean that she has the potential to obtain more of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection, at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing (probably!), and how the visions play into her powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “projected” visions from Tess to get Iz’s attention for help). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps! ) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions from Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just “now” being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifters, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? The vision seems similar to that Liz gets in SH when she “sees” the orb being buried. Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Could his blurred vision be the result of testing he was subjected to, and the tic tacs pills that he takes to maintain his “balance”?

Time Travel – “Run, Lola, Run”

Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has it come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run” – which was mentioned in Surprise as the story of Liz’s life? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully due to the premature cementing, and the third being the path we are on now!) Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos? OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has from FM concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY, and that warning prevented him from turning it over to the other aliens - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max in particular!) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug Max – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed! Does he really “know” as Kyle seems to think Max always does? Why isn’t he asking Liz about her the source of her knowledge??

Hero Journey – Liz’s Path

[The following is a summary of what BehrAll pulled together on another thread, and I’m applying it to LIZ! I thank all who may have contributed to this originally, and apologize for not mentioning your name. I believe the bulk of the following was quoted from NyLoN? And that Czech please also contributed to the post.] The Hero's Journey is perhaps the most famous method of storytelling ever. First used by Homer, it was given 'shape' by Joseph Campbell in the 20th century. It has been the basis for many of the most famous and popular works of fiction.

The Hero's Journey is a series of stages that a heroine must go through during her adventure. The stages are flexible in that they are not clearly defined, and Campbell admits that one need not follow all the stages for it to be a true journey. The Hero's Journey (HJ) does not apply to an entire plotline, but rather to a character or several characters and their evolution throughout a series. In our case, we believe that Liz is in the process of the HJ. Following are the HJ stages with references of how it applies to Liz (which I added):
1. Call to Adventure - The heroine must first be forcibly drawn into the adventure, this occurs from a normal occurrence and not something strange or supernatural. Liz’s healing after being shot would be such an event.
2. Threshold Guardian - The heroine must face a minor obstacle that blocks her way to the adventure. Okay – there are more obstacles that Liz has faced than I can mention here, but being a small-town girl who is human may be the initial minor obstacle.
3. Wise and Helpful Guide - The inexperienced heroine must find a guide who will aid her with advice and materials that will be instrumental in her journey. I’m not sure who this could be – Grandma Claudia seems the obvious choice, but River Dog could be on too. But this goes along with my belief that someone is watching over Liz.
4. Into the Labyrinth - The heroine must step out into the unknown and the “den of evil.” Getting involved with Max was stepping into the unknown. Working to defeat the enemy is stepping into the “den of evil.”
5. Heroic Deeds - The heroine must engage in mortal combat, often sacrificing something or someone for the further good to continue her quest. Liz has faced death – think escape from the FBI Special Unit – and sacrificed her own “happy” future with Max in TEOTW for the greater good.
6. Trials - The midway point of the hero's journey is marked by a series of trials, ordeals, tests and obstacles.
7. Into the Belly of the Beast - A popular occurrence is the literal swallowing of the heroine by some great beast. This often marks the entrance to a mythical world where a great transformation occurs. However, in most works the belly of the beast is a metaphor for a stronghold of the enemy. Okay – Liz had to confront the Skins before disappearing, and there are probably other examples out there.
8. Sacrifices - The opening of the mind and heart of the heroine requires her be prepared to (or in some cases does) sacrifice something of great import to her. Okay, think TEOTW – need I say more???
9. Atonement - The hero's journey sometimes includes a "father (or mother?) quest." After many trials and ordeals, the heroine finds her father and becomes "at one" with him. (Note, occasionally this step is eliminated to create 13 stages.) Since we don’t know the circumstances of Liz’s birth, we assume that her dad is her true dad, but ….
10. Return - The heroine then returns to her home with newfound powers, knowledge or ability to benefit her people. Liz does have newfound powers, but … Maybe this is for Season 3??
11. Return of Evil - The heroine is not the only one who is reborn, the forces of evil also reform and come anew. Okay – this could happen numerous times over the course of Roswell!
12. Enchanted Forest - The inhabitants of the enchanted forest are strange creatures who can be both helpful and dangerous. The heroine must know how to get them to aid her on her quest. (Note, this is the second most likely step to be removed to create 13 stages.) Liz has already “befriended” Ava – definitely a “strange creature, and Ava added Liz’s quest to save Max. I would see Liz as instrumental in working with other creatures to seek their assistance.
13. Heart of Darkness - The heroine must enter the center of power for evil in order to destroy it or its' leader. This definitely could happen in future episodes! I can see her ability to see the evil within (if that proves true) coming in useful there.
14. Final Victory and Journey's End - In the end the heroine triumphs over evil and brings forth something new, be it enlightenment, power, understanding or a whole new society. Is there any doubt!!!

Liz’s relationship with Max is key in her journey, but it isn't the only issue she's dealing with (or needs to deal with!). The Hero's Journey can be physical or emotional. An emotional journey, such as usually occurs in a romance, takes the protagonist from her normal state of affairs and challenges her ideas, beliefs and current existence. A proactive protagonist responds to such challenges, undergoing tests of her moral fiber and emotional strength. Frequently she will have to examine all that she has believed to be true before a major confrontation. It is here that she pulls victory from disaster. And it is here that she seeks to return to normalcy. Many writers believe this is the end of the journey. But it isn't.
TEOTW as probably Liz’s "major confrontation" since it was her actions here that pulled "victory from disaster." The future was changed and (we assume) the events FM warned her of do not come to pass. At this point, she knows all she has gone through with (and for) Max has changed her, but believes that part of her life is over now. Liz is hoping that things can be relatively normal again, and has been trying to resume the life she had before Max. But as we all see, she will, of course, be unsuccessful.

The issue at the heart of Liz's HJ, the thing that she must overcome, is the myth of her own insignificance. She believes firmly in her ability to control her own destiny, but often dismisses the notion that she is any more than an obstacle to Max's journey. She's wrong, of course! In TEOTW, we learn that it is their love that damns them and those they care about. This is huge! Liz's romance, her emotional connection, determines the fate of the world. And ultimately, she is the one with the power to save everyone. Unfortunately, she doesn't recognize this power, only the fact that she will be alone now. Her journey isn't over yet.

Liz and Max's respective HJ's have intersected many times already, and we believe that they will eventually merge together. This is why many of us don't worry too much about their couple status. Most of us believe there is much more to Liz than we have seen and that her destiny is more important than she could possibly imagine. We believe things she has accepted at face value her whole life will be turned upside down. Her ultimate sacrifice will be the belief that she is normal. Once she accepts that she is no longer "the smallest of small town girls," she will need to accept entirely new perspectives and responsibilities. At that point, the HJ that has we've seen unfold on Roswell so far will be over and another phase in her life will begin.

Grandma Claudia – the first connection?

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her new and married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Perhaps GC helped them when she was younger, and they entrusted valuable information with her just as with River Dog. Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Norma Bates & Tasyfa contributed these thoughts! Soulmates are usually described as people being very alike in feelings and motivation. They work very well together for common goals. They have a connection of purpose and a similarity in thinking. Their skills complement each others so that together they accomplish more and are stronger/better than if they worked individually toward the same goal. But soulmates aren’t necessarily a permanent connection and they could be with several people. However, Lifebonds take "soulmate" one step further. Lifebonds are usually found in telepathic sci-fi (Kathy Tyers' "Firebird" for example) and fantasy genres. Before they can be lifebonded, they must be soulmates first. They are linked together mentally, emotionally and constantly. Lifebonds in fiction are rare and not taken lightly. They are a permanent one on one connection…till death do they part. The creation of a lifebond is a matter of choice. It doesn’t just happen. Authors sometimes use the theory that if a pair decides to lifebond, they spend some time apart first (so don’t worry Dreamers! ;grin: ), to strengthen and stretch the bond (to change the bond) and to contemplate on their choice. Both must agree and be fully committed to each other. There is no divorce option except death. Once that is done, the 2 open their connections to each other, mind and soul, to the fullest extent and then “cement” their relationship, making the bond permanent.

The drawbacks to life bonding includes:
· If they are separated from each other, they feel incomplete, not whole.
· Long term separation can lead to mental instability or insanity because one balances the other’s strengths and weaknesses emotionally and physically.
· If one of a bonded pair dies, it can cause a deep depression to the point of suicide. The remaining survivor has trouble adapting and balancing themselves.

Some things that lifebonds aren’t:
· They are not mind reading skills. They send strong impressions or emotions. Right now, if Max and Liz were lifebonded, he would know she was lying but not why unless she told him.
· They are still separate people capable of misunderstandings.
· Lifebonds cause a lot of stress and misunderstanding because they are so close emotionally, they forget to communicate verbally.
· Having secrets between a lifebonded pair causes a lot of frustration and pain between them.

Could what FM is talking about in TEOTW be a hint that, not knowing what they were doing, Liz and Max became lifebonded too soon? Liz wasn’t going to change or be able to lifebond to Max without first making a decision that she wanted to go ahead with the relationship. From Destiny until TEOTW she kept herself apart and tried to withdraw, but after seeing Madame Vivian she changed her mind and decided to take a chance…to start changing. Perhaps FM found out that Liz would develop her own powers if they hadn't become lifebonded and solidified the links so early. FM coming back and keeping her separated allowed the connections to grow stronger. Liz needed time to stretch the links, to change both physically and mentally, and taking Isabel's hand in MITC was only the first step of finding out whom she really is and what she is capable of doing.

Sheila Hubble – Eerie resemblance to Liz! – What’s the connection?

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the pod squad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with while in Florida?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. So, there is a connection to Liz. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Do you think the writers will introduce a character from Florida named Chad? Ummmmm? And what happened to Hal?? Don’t you think he would want to stay connected to the podsters now that he knows they exist?

Venus – Liz’s connection to the stars!

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Some new findings connecting to Venus include - Liz considers the smell of sulfur as “being home.” Venus has sulfur as a predominant chemical in its atmosphere. “The first time I walked into a chemistry lab and smelled that smell – the sulfur – I felt like I was home.” (Monsters) Is this part of an alien essence or past? (Thanks StarBox!) Also, Venus is hot and dry. Its atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas. Its upper atmosphere contains sulphuric acid. Venus rotates very slowly (once every 243 earth days) in the direction opposite to most of the other planets and opposite to the motion of all of the planets around the sun. Its solar day is 116 days long. Venus goes around the sun once every 225 days. StarBox, Bluecornmoon and Zara conducted the following analysis - 225 (245?) days after Feb. 20 (SH) was October 25, the day of the Gomez' concert (TEOTW). The next "mating" cycle for Max and Liz will be June 23rd, 2001! As for Liz and Max's "need" for each other - It's not time yet!

Numbers – It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! TEOTW occurs in 2014! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates? Next time you watch ARCC, notice the house addresses for Brody and the Ghost’s family, and it’s the 23rd Annual celebration. They all add up to 5! On the Silverhandprint, notice the crime report for Liz’s shooting. The Crashdowns address and the time of the shooting all include 2, 3 and 4s! Someone is sending us a message – maybe it is that we are all nutty!

Cave Map Symbols – All signs lead to Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together? See the discussion of lines and stars above!

The symbol on the necklace that leads to the cave looks like a yin/yang symbol. Audrey11 contributed the following - yin and yang have some references to things that have been discussed. This is a brief list of what they represent, mostly in reference to previous discussions.
Yin - conceived of as earth, female, present in even numbers, valleys and streams, represented by the tiger, the color orange and a broken line.
Yang - conceived of as heaven, male, present in odd numbers, mountains, represented by the dragon, the color azure and an unbroken line.
The concept of yin-yang in Chinese thought is associated with 5 elements: metal, wood, water, fire and earth, this idea lends substance to the characteristically Chinese belief in a cyclical theory of becoming and dissolution and an interdependence between the world of nature and human events.

Skins – What lies below the surface?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the pod squad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seemed to be confined to their husks, but they could be from the same race as the pod squad’s alien predecessors. Many of us think that the pod squad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without being noticed? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? How did the Skins – Nicko - find the Dupes? And could some of these earlier alien visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race or groups of aliens on Earth ? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Shapeshifters – Are there more than one?

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same. Maybe Tic Tac was the Dupes’ shapeshifter who came back to Roswell.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Recently with the discovery of Liz’s change, many have wondered why Harding didn’t know about the change and mention it. Especially after reading the cut scenes from MITC. If Ava knew, Harding should have known and mentioned it. Of course, there are the long lingering questions like: Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions, and his apparent failure to divulge information about Liz and the podsters’ origins. Was his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee”? And what did he do for all those years before Tess hatched? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Again, why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? Why did Harding have such a large collection of antiques, which he was so sensitive about? Had he been around when they were original manufactured – years ago? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Odds and Ends

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection. And who could miss Max grabbing Liz’s hand at mid-night mass and telling Liz, “I believe in you!” in ARCC!

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Dates

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across – PM me if you have one. I have added dates from the Silverhandprint site, but they don’t always jive with the episodes, so take them with a grain of salt.

1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1935 – Picture of Michael’s DNA donor? (Hybrid Chronicle’s promo)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
7/7/1947 – Privates Timothy Mann and Frank DiMuzio find Privates Bill Fifer and Jim McCarthy dead near crash site.
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
1949 – Special Agent Lewis recruited to run FBI Special Unit (Silverhandprint)
1950 – Agent Lewis mentions “butchers at Eagle Rock” to wife [think Eagle Rock Military Base] (Silverhandprint)
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in Delta, CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent DelBianco killed in Union City, TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior (UFO Convention)
9/13/1973 – Kathleen Ann Topolsky, future FBI agent, born in Hartford, Connecticut
1975 – Allister Topolsky born
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Agent McMahon, head of FBI Special Unit, killed (Silverhandprint)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
1983 – Michael’s birthday?
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
3 or 5/7/1983 – Tess’s birthday (I see a 5, others see 3?)(Tess, Lies and Videotapes)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? – Z]
1985 – Pohlman Ranch Excavation (Silverhandprint)
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1990 – Maria’s Dad leaves (Sexual Healing)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
Fall 1993 – Topolsky graduates from U. of Hartford, w/ BA in Psychology
11/1993 – Topolsky’s brother Allister dies of Hodgkin’s Disease
1993 or 1994 – Laurie Dupree’s Grandfather (Michael’s DNA Donor) dies
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1997 – Topolsky graduates from U. of Michigan with PhD in Psychology
11/15/1997 – Date on Laurie Dupree’s Psychiatric Hospital Bag (We Are Family)
1999 - Agent Daniel Sommers, head of FBI Special Unit, killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17/1999 – At 3:52 pm Liz Parker is shot, and Max Evans saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!! (Sheriff’s Report – Silverhandprint)
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
9/27/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: arrival in Roswell (Silverhandprint)
9/28/1999 – Topolsky has first day at West Roswell High (Silverhandprint)
9/30/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: confiscated Sheriff’s files & Michael Guerin (Silverhandprint)
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds (Silverhandprint)
10/14/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Suzanne Duff – obviously close friends (Silverhandprint)
10/14/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: Future Week [think Profiles] (Silverhandprint)
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/27/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: Alex [Even Topolsky notices the “intense” connection between Max and Liz] (Silverhandprint)
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
10/28/1999 – Liz and Max search Kyle’s for the Journal, & Topolsky recognizes Michael’s artwork as Atherton’s geodesic dome (Silverhandprint)
11/4/1999 – 285 South Begins (Profiles - Silverhandprint)
11/5/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s (Profiles - Silverhandprint)
11/6/1999 – Topolsky orders a Casio Magic Wand (Silverhandprint)
11/9/1999 – Topolsky following pod squad to Atherton’s [Date not consistent with Profiles] (Silverhandprint)
11/11/1999 – Topolsky describes the incident at Atherton’s (Silverhandprint)
11/18/1999 – Max in car accident [think Blood Brothers] (Silverhandprint)
11/19/1999 – Topolsky’s final report (Silverhandprint)
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex wind up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max & Liz share their first kiss (Heatwave)
1/2000 – Frazier Woods SIghting
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/8/2000 – FBI Agent Daniel Pierce checks out item 87 kl stone form Special Unit vault (Silverhandprint)
4/8/2000 – Kathleen Topolsky checks out Orb Communicator from FBI Evidence Vault (Silverhandprint)
4/14/2000 – Fire brakes out at Bethesda Psychiatric Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, and Topolsky is listed as among the six patients killed (Silverhandprint)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/5/2000 – Rare alignment of Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Earth’s Moon and the Sun (4everyoung)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
7/2000 – Grant steals rifle from hunter in New Castle, Wyoming (Disturbing Behavior)
8/2000 – Grant steals oxygen tanks from hospice in Fort Collins, CO (Disturbing Behavior)
9/2000 – Grant steals plastic head box from industrial supply in Las Cruses, NM (DB)
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed Harding, the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/6/2001 – Special Agent Ragsdale writes Congressman White re: FBI Special Unit (Silverhandprint)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday (Surprise)
12/23/2000 – Max heals kids in Hospital (ARCC)
12/24/2000 – Max attends Midnight Services, expressing his Belief in Liz (ARCC)
1/2001 – The Hybrid Chronicles Begin!
2014 – Minutes before the destruction of Earth, Future Liz Convinces Future Max to go back in time and convince Liz to deceive Max into “falling out of love with her” – thus, changing the future (TEOTW)

In Summary

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? The Ava drawings also seem to tie Liz in just by including her, but …? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. I’m also hoping the clues that we have found are up-lifting to the Dreamers out there that just lurk! Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome.

OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS[b/] (even asides about spoilers are not allowed), but anything “aired” is subject to discussion, including coming attractions and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

[b]Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
WOW - THREAD #30!!

Here is a great drawing of a diamond (the shape of the granolith) that Metaphysical posted - notice the repeated "V"'s within the shape?

Liz as Venus:

Liz and Max as twin souls - notice how they come together to form the
"swirl" on the orb activated during Sexual Healing. Also - notice the
"Emergency" sign behind them - when they come to gether it reads "MERGE".
The animation is from the alternate ending to Leaving Normal and is
complimets of RedHawk (THANKS!!) Also posted is a screencap of the aired
ending of Leaving Normal - here you can see a variation of the orb swirl as
well.

[IMG]http://www.geocities.com/redhawksroswell/pics/LNdfend.gif [/IMG]

Liz as the keeper of/key to the granolith:
Picture of the granolith chamber in the crashdown:

Liz with the word "CHANGE" behind her - from Leaving Normal. I think the
theme of Liz's "emergence" is central to Roswell - Think of Future Max's
line that Liz needed to let herself change.

Liz's Hero Journey is closely linked to images of Liz looking into MIRRORS. The mirror seems to symbolize the transformation Liz is undergoing. Another symbol linked to Liz is that of BUTTERFLIES - an obvious symbol of metamorphasis and change.

Sheila Hubble:

Liz as the Virgin Mary/key to Salvation (::waving to Evid:

The dragon on Liz's window:

Liz as the Trojan Horse (she was avoiding Maria in the Pilot and ate lunch
with Pam TROY). Horses have shown up alot in pictures, etc but here is the
horse that ran in front of Max's jeep in Blood Brothers:

Liz as the Tree of Life and EAGLE imagery - see the tree mural on the wall -
and also the EAGLE figure on the table.

The "destiny" book with the name "LIZ" backwards next to what looks like the
granolith sideways:

Liz and the cave "map" - note the granolith-like symbols near her neck and
towards the top.

Liz and the Childhoods End book:

Okay Zero - here you go - the cross and the sugar cubes:

Images thanks to crashdown, shapeshifter, redhawk and a HUGE thanks to
www.theddd.com who are kind enough to
supply custom screencaps for our gallery.
THANKS!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Anyway, http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology/index.html is updated and has the first thread, the first of season 2, and the last 2 linked.

Zero, I will have to read your updated intro later--here it is 4:41 on my day off and so much left to do! But I'm sure you did a great job!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

We have been discussing the possibility of putting together a list of questions for the Roswell set design team. After thousands of posts and hours spent speculating on the various things we see on the set, we are going to attempt to contact TPTB and have some of our questions answered by the people in charge! We are hoping that they might be so flattered by our appreciation of their work that they take time out of their busy schedules to answer our questions. As of now, a few people have some leads as to where to get their contact information. Anybody who could help us with this endeavor, it would be great if you could PM me with the information. Ideally we would like to email them the questions, and they can email us back. We could even funnel it through a third party if they're more comfortable with that. In a perfect world, they would come to this thread and answer our questions live and in person!

If you are interested in submitting questions, it would be easiest for me if you could PM them to me instead of just posting them on the board. I will make sure each of you gets credit where credit is due.

For the sake of making this easier, I have separated the questions into 2 categories. General questions and specific questions.

Without further ado, here's what we have so far...

<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>

QUESTIONS FOR THE ROSWELL SET DESIGN TEAM

General Questions

(1)When designing the sets, do you bear in mind the people out there (like us mythologists) who will analyze and overthink as many of the props that we do? submitted by Alderbran

(2) How do you keep track of the "themes" that you choose? Are they things that you decide or does the director have a lot of say in that?submitted by Alderbran

(3) Have you ever placed an item in the set as a joke to see if any of the audience will notice it?submitted by Alderbran

(4) When designing a set and picking the props, are there plot line cues hidden amongst the decorations? submitted by Metaphysicalgrl

(5) How involved is your 'team' in telling the story? Are there specific things that the directors or whoever ask to see in the set? And if the answer to the first part of the question is yes, can you please give us some examples? Submitted by Metaphysicalgrl

(6) Can you tell us what your favorite sets to dress are and why? Submitted by Metaphysicalgrl

(7) Do you ever visit a thread like ours - that analyzes the show, including looking for clues in the scene - to see what we are looking for or if we have found what they put there for us to find?? submitted by Zero

Specific Questions

(1) What is the title/artist of the impressionist picture in Liz's room? submitted by Starbox

(2) Liz has another picture in her room that is a long rectangle with three objects on it - almost like a shadowbox - they look kind of like some sort of shell??? What are they?? submitted by Starbox

(3)What kind of animal does Max have in his terrarium? submitted by Starbox

(4) What do the posters in Max's room say?
submitted by Starbox

(5)Are the chinese lanterns significant or are you just using them to diffuse light??
submitted by Starbox

(6)What is the old map of that hangs in Max's room over his computer? submitted by Alderbran

(7)In the DeLuca house on the table near the door there is a picture of a woman. Who is the picture of, and what is the writing underneath the picture? submitted by Alderbran

(8) What significance if any is there to Max having a figurine of a windmill in his bedroom and Liz having a painting of the same type windmill in her room. submitted by Starstruck

(9)Why oh why do they keep using the #14 on everything from hotel room #'s to classroom #'s to TV station #'s etc. submitted by Starstruck

(10) Could you list the items that are on Max's bulletin board? submitted by Starbox

<>~~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>

That's it for now, I'll keep updating as I get the questions.

We probably don't want to make it too long, as it would be really great if they could answer these by email or something. Anyway, let's just hope that they eventually get to see these.

That's it on my end...

It's All good...

Metaphysicalgrl
{~}:}

Added one new question from Starbox under Specific Questions on 2/19/01

*Might* I make a suggestion to your introduction.

There is currently a thread the moderators have started discussing the need to less shipper oriented groups. I gather would be posters feel discourage about posting unless they belong to a group. I for one, know that any would be poster that has something to offer to explain the mythology would be welcomed here.

It seems so silly to bring this up, because I know we are very tolerant of people's ideas. However, it seems to be a sore subject among new posters.

Now, back to Liz....

Great start as always Zero... I'm currently out of town and typing this from a hotel computer. Although I found this interesting website before I left home that I wanted to link here (but had forgotten until now). I believe it's the official site for Laura Esquivel's book Law of Love. It's a book I enjoyed but I prefer her other, more famous work, [/b][/i]Like Water For Chocolate[/i][/b]. The premise of Law of Love is basically the concept of "twin souls", which y'all seem to discuss in here quite prevalently in concerns to Max and Liz. Anyway, this is a portion of the website, called a "Karmometer"...

http://www.randomhouse.com/features/lawoflove/karm.html

Supposedly, the above is supposed to tell you how long it will take you before you find your "twin soul". Although I think it's mostly in colloberation with the book itself (a clever way of advertising it ). I thought it was kind of interesting nonetheless and thought I'd share it with y'all.

Melodious

I know that this has been discussed before, but I'm still wondering if there were perhaps two ships, maybe even two crashes. According to Betty Osorio's journal, Linda Schlupp said the crash occured in a pasture 30 miles from town. But the crash site we saw in SO47, though it very well could've been 30 miles outside of town, hardly looked like a ranch. It looked like the desert. In DB when Liz was looking at the map it showed that Polman Ranch (the place where the crash supposedly happened) was near Lauree's burial site in Frazier Woods. This sort of leads me to believe that there were two ships, unless the desert was really close to Frazier Woods, but I didn't see that on the map.

Also in TLV, when Michael had the vision (could've been a Tess-O-Vision) he was running through the woods, presumbly at Polman Ranch. But he, Max, and Isabel came out of the pod chamber in the desert. I also wonder who picked up Michael after Isabel and Max were picked up by the Evans? Michael has always told Max "it was you the Evans picked up on the side of the road, not me" So who found Michael and how long was he in the desert before someone found him???

Anyways, I watched Liz's dream sequence in TSAP again. I thought it was interesting how the colors changed from red to green. And the prescence of white being so prominate. Here's what I found (sorry if someone has already pointed this out)

White Rose: Reverence, Humility
White (alone): Purity, Weddings (used in weddings in America)
Color Red - In Chinese, means a symbol of luck, wedding (used in). India-Purity, wedding (used in). Easter Cultures- Means joy combined with white (the white roses, Liz white dress).

Other meanings for red- Excitement,energy, Passion,desire,strength, love, power, heat, all things intense and passionate. Sounds like Max and Liz to me

Green - renewal, fertility

Interesting how all the symbolism tends to go back to weddings, and things associated with a bride, fertility, joy, purity, etc.,

*Might* I make a suggestion to your introduction.

There is currently a thread the moderators have started discussing the need to less shipper oriented groups. I gather would be posters feel discourage about posting unless they belong to a group. I for one, know that any would be poster that has something to offer to explain the mythology would be welcomed here.

It seems so silly to bring this up, because I know we are very tolerant of people's ideas. However, it seems to be a sore subject among new posters.

Now, back to Liz....

Qfanny - If you can think of a way to make this thread more welcoming to newbies, yet still keep the focus on Liz's importance, I welcome it! I try really hard to convey that we welcome all new comers - but you never know if the intent gets conveyed properly??

AND if any NEWBIE ARE LURKING OUT THERE - PLEASE FEEL FREE TO JOIN IN! IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF A FEW POSTS BEFORE YOU ARE NO LONGER A NEWBIE HERE!!

Also - A BIG THANKS TO STARBOX FOR POSTING THE PICTURES! You found the ones I couldn't post. The pictures add sooooo much to the thread!

Met - Looks like you have a great set of questions so far. I may add a couple, but I need a while to think if others haven't covered something I feel is important. We should coordinate to see if we get a contact!

peej and Peaches192 - Welcome !

Zero
I Shall Believe!

If Max is connected to Liz in a kind of molecular or genetic way (the popular theory), then wouldn't Liz also be connected to Zan? Someone said she wanted to go to University in NY, could it be her "connection" to Zan was pulling her there?
Wouldn't Zan have felt this too? Ava said her was always waiting for another, she was sure he thought this other person would just walk into his life. And why do you suppose he absolutly refused to go to the summit? The other three felt this was their one shot at getting home, yet he didn't want to take it. Could he want to stay on earth because this is where the "other" person he is waiting for is?

Another thing, I don't think Zan is dead. The camera never shot his body, yet Ava said "his body just lay in the street" but she never said if that spider web stuff engulfed him.

Why didn't Max, Iz, Michael, and Tess question why they didn't use the healing stones. Ava was sure there was no way of bringing him back, so maybe their shapeshifter didn't tell the dupes about them. There is, too, the thought that maybe their shapeshifter didn't have healing stones. But does that mean Nasado was superior to that one in some way? Why wouldn't the shapeshifters work together to accomplish thier common goal? We have seen the dupes shapeshifter, did they even have one, or did they kill him? I wonder if the dupes had the communicators too.

Now that I'm done that little rant, I have just one more question. If Zan is alive, like I think he is, what would happen to Liz if he came to Roswell, and she saw him?

It was nice talking to ya!!!!!

The only "rat" I have is cute so I can't give it to you to replace the snake - Oops, sorry, I forgot! Snakes are our friends!

A couple of things: You said a ship was powering the Granolith! I disagree. Since it was established that it gathers great force and has incredible power, a ship, lurking around the vecinity of Roswell, could never do that! I think the Granolith is connected somehow to Earth's core! That's the only place where you could find all that power, and it would be easily accesible! The "G" has its claws imbedded down there, I'm sure!

MicMac - As for Zan, it has long been speculated that his reaction will be interesting to watch, if one day, he enters the Crashdown and faces Liz! Oh, the tales we could tell!!!!

Peej - Congratulations on delurking. I, too, wrote my first post on this thread! Hope it's the beginning of many!!!

Methaphysicalgrl - As I said in Thread 29, my friend, who won the bid for the Bill Sadler lunch, will gladly take all your questions to the set designers / decorators / prop guys! If not, at least she will acquire an e-mail out of them!

Dayneen: The crash was 30 miles from Roswell and, if you watch a documentary on the real crash, you see that the area is arid, dry and deserted! But it was part of the Puhlman Ranch, which is next to the woods! New Mexico is a place of contrasts and it has every climate! Fertile fields next to the desert. Hot and dry to cold and humid!

Bluecornmoon - My husband is definitely a saint! He thinks I'm nuts, but never complains about the hours I spend on-line! Fortunately, I have a laptop hooked up in the living room, so I can play and watch TV in the evening at the same time!

MicMac - Welcome! We have often wondered the same things! If you hang around long enough you will discover we often come up with way more questions than ever could posibly be answered, but "inquirering minds want to know!" I would love to see Liz's reaction to Zan and vice versa. My one thought on "WHY?" Zan didn't want to go to the summit - He knew he wouldn't pass the "test." That he wasn't the authentic "King."

Also - Bluecornmoon - I'm not saying that the Granolith is a spaceship, just that that is one of the thoughts and it somewhat makes sense. But maybe I need to revise that section to make that clear. I definitely think it is more than that though. Big and mythical in nature!

Back to finish reading!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Methaphysicalgrl - As I said in Thread 29, my friend, who won the bid for the Bill Sadler lunch, will gladly take all your questions to the set designers / decorators / prop guys! If not, at least she will acquire an e-mail out of them!

Thanks for any help you can give regarding the set designers. I will keep the questions updated as people send them to me...and update the post on each thread. Whenever you need to give the questions to your friend, just grab them! Thanks for your help!!!!!

On a totally different subject, I remember RiverDog saying that [human] energy was needed to activate the healing stones -- that energy would mix with the balance and restore it. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the same might be true for the Granolith. However, we've never seen the Granolith activated except in a future moment, and Max had to insert a crystal thing to get it to work...(or so we think). It could be an energy source...but if you notice in EOTW, the Granolith doesn't suck Max up until Liz touches it.

I don't know where I'm going with this, as it's kind of late and my head is spinning, but I definitely think the Granolith could be using the energy of the earth (there is energy in everything)as a power source.

Allrighty then...

Must rest. Head spinning.

{~}:}

So, I'm just thinking (and I know others have posted on this previously) that whenever Liz sees the Granolith, it's going to be a big deal.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

I watched MA, Monsters, LN, and Missing (okay so I was only planning on watching Missing to check out the mirror that is also in Amy Deluca’s House—It is the EXACT mirror! Great Catch! I knew it looked familiar! ) Anyway I found a few more things:

When Max goes to the UFO Center Milton says that their were Purple hyroglyfics on certain recovered items. Could anyone remember (or post) what color the pentagonal device’s writing was?

In LN when Liz is talking with GC there is a butterfly wing over her right shoulder (our left).

Also, in LN when Alex is in Topolsky’s office there is a sign behind him where you can only read “You can choose to overcome them.” Interesting, huh?

If anyone is interested in joining in the Operation Max/Liz campaign, please email me at awales@cahners.com. Thanks!

Yes! I'm guessing there'll be alot of glowing, spinning, humming, rumbling, perhaps an non-momogram or two (from GC this time?)... Wow! Anything could happen. I'll be so disappointed if nothing does!

Zara
Liz is the key to the Granolith

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

(1) Did anyone figure out who is in the picture that sits on the table near the front door of the DeLuca house?

(2) Any theories on the old map hanging on Max's bedroom wall? It could be an old map of the area (from previous alien visits). Anyway, it has to mean something!

(3) Alexis - I think the alien characters on the pentagonal device were silver/gray.

(4) Just a little something on aprons. In Liz's dream in TSAP, she was in her waitress uniform. Aprons usually symbolize sexuality in that they cover/shield the sexual organs. I believe they also symbolize fertility. Notice she wasn't wearing hers in the dream.....

Can't remember who brought up about the silverhandprint on the mirror looking thing near the door but I think you may be right, was it Starbox?

Zero-interesting alienpops--you said maybe Maria has an alien pop but could it be AMY DELUCA that had an alien pop? I still wonder why they brought up BREEPA DELUCA--Maria mentioned this in Sof47 eppy--I regret not being able to say goodbye to Breepa Deluca before he died. Was that her grandfather, uncle, what?

Well, now I must be off. Don't you hate it when "real" life gets in the way?

Liz will start exploring what the G is, how it works, etc. It's her nature to question.

Anyway, thanks to you guys I am seeing diamonds everywhere! In the last episode in the Deluca's house I about went mad looking at them all! I'm sure you have all discussed the diamonds at great length, but I just wanted to let you know. I love your work.

Your comment provoked a thought. Isn't it interesting that Max knew Liz when he saw her but didn't know Tess?

Rooney

I know that this has been discussed before, but I'm still wondering if there were perhaps two ships, maybe even two crashes. [/B]

I think that in "real" life there were two crashes. They were miles apart and discovered on separate days. It's been awhile since I read anything on the Roswell crash so I can't remember anything more than that.

aldebaran, Re:
quote:(1) Did anyone figure out who is in the picture that sits on the table near the front door of the DeLuca house?
I guess you don't mean the one of Krishna wich could symbolize reincarnation. I'll have to check after I get home.

In Harvest, when Max, Tess & Liz are in the UFL building and the Skins start to go nuts, Liz's hand is on the back of Max's neck before they all get up and run out. Was she giving him her strength?

In MTD, when the dupes come down the stairs and they're all looking back and forth, the camera shots go like this: full shot of Lonnie looks at full shot of Isabel; full shot of Michael (tiny bit of Max's shoulder in the corner, b/c Michael's standing behind him) looks at full shot of Rath; full shot of Ava looks at full shot of Tess AND Liz. So, does this mean what it seems to imply? Which is:
Rath = Michael
Lonnie = Isabel
Ava = Tess + Liz

More recently (sorry if it was mentioned while I was MIA), what if Laurie's nurse is Serena? I'm not sure why I thought she might be; it just occurred to me (wishful thinking? ). I wasn't able to make out the name on her nametag badge--was anyone else? And, about when Max says, "The closest I'm going to get [to travelling] is the Granolith chamber." I don't know about everyone else, but I only use this phrase to describe a place that I actually DO go to, or an action that I actually DO do. The implication is that the podsters haven't been ignoring the *G*, they just haven't been doing anything with it in front of the camera The third thing--which has undoubtedly been pointed out--is the diamond pattern on the quilt behind Alex's head during the slideshow on Liz's balcony. I'm looking through my quilt books to find the pattern; I think it's usually called Mountains or River, depending on the colour scheme (Alex's would be the Mountain colour scheme, in beige & brown). I'll post the name once I'bve found it.

Zero Fabulous job on the intro. I'm not sure who coined the term Blue Goop for the Gandarium, but I it!

bluecornmoon You must be over the flu by now; I hope it didn't last too long. Once I get my outgoing e-mail working properly again, I'll send you part 7 of Forging; I posted it on Jen007's board last night

Norma Bates Saw your response; thanks! I'm exploring my lifebond ideas mainly through my fic since we're not getting much to work on from the show right now

I have a TON of catching up to do, so I'll be around. This thread gives me more hope even than Cherishing, b/c it offers real, grounded ideas as to why Liz and Max belong together Though I must say, after watching the last 5 eps of S1, which I had never seen before this past Friday, I'm not really worried about their reunion; I know it will come. I'm not sure if it was the lack of sleep due to the marathon viewing session, but I can see where this is all going now, and why M&L need to be apart--for the moment.
~Tas

Somehow, I think Ava sees herself both as Tess and as Liz: She knows that she and Tess have the same biology, but in Diary of a Meltdown, she notes under Tess's name, "In a past life, I was a Queen." There's a certain finality in that sentence. Max has been refered to as "the King". Not, "was the King". So I am wondering if Liz usurped Tess in the eyes of Ava.

Bye bye...

It sure has been a while. I just thought I would drop in and read the new stuff. AND-Low and behold, I happened to just think of something.

OK-this is probably something that has been posted already but I don't know because I am about 10 threads behind So if this sounds really stupid I am sorry

The V shape is half of a diamond!
Now, I think diamonds have to have some major significance if they are popping up all the time and they are 2 V shapes put together.---> <> <> <> <>

Sorry if that was really stupid, but it is 1AM and I am gettting really tired. Just blame it on lack of sleep

Lots of Love,
SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

Perhaps that would go hand in hand with Tasyfa's theory from MTD: Ava = Tess AND Liz. Past and present meet. A queen meets THE queen. Just a thought.

Scully - I guess my thoughts about the apron (in connection with what an apron symbolizes - fertility/sex) just reiterated what the dream was - a sex dream where Liz had no inhibitions. In real life, Liz's uniform is accompanied by the apron. In her dream, she was in uniform sans apron. Her repoductive organs (read sexuality) were "exposed" as opposed to being covered by the apron. Just an observation.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Of course, they might just be copy-catting our favorite show.

(edited because it didn't work. I will try again)

I've been gone for awhile, but I'm back now (If anyone really noticed I was gone ). Anyways, having had my head stuck in Harry Potter books for the last week (I just finished the third last night - If you haven't read them, they are really good, and I highly reccomend them no matter what age you are), I had a little thought.

Anyone read the third Harry Potter book, The Prisoner of Azkaban? I don't want to spoil anything, but if you have, do you remember the end where Harry and Hermione go back in time and realize that it's a repeated circle? That everything that happened in normal time included that which they were doing when going back in time? Does that make sense? The idea is that all their actions went in a circle; everything would continue to happen the same way as long as nothing prevented it from (getting caught in the hallway, begin found by someone else...etc). When I thought about it, it applied to The End of The World. Now obviously, the future was different if FM hadn't come to visit, but what if something changed in his visit? What if someone went back when they could figure out how to modify the granalith and changed his visit, thereby changing time?

To those who haven't read Harry Potter (or at least the third one) that won't make any sense! Is someone else able to explain better for me? Somewhere in the back of my cluttered mind this all relates back to Liz, I just have to work it out more first!

Anne

[b]The V shape is half of a diamond!
Now, I think diamonds have to have some major significance if they are popping up all the time and they are 2 V shapes put together.---> <> <> <> <>

[/B]

I have never noticed or thought about this! Thanks so much SweetJo!

I was looking through the screencaps for DB for some fan art when I noticed something. The scene at the end when the camera is backing up from the back room. It's Brody in the door way when we see the alien doll laying there. I'd post the screencap but for some reason the crashdown isn't showing them all now. And I can't get the address.

But I just thought that I'd post this anyway. I know that we had talked about it and thought that it was Liz, but if you look at the one before and then compare it to the one after it's Brody. Foreshadowing?

Just a quick pop-in -

SweetJo - I think that is a great catch that the "V" shape makes a <> Diamond! Also, to tie in the talk about mirrors, if you place a V against a mirror, it gives the illusion of a diamond. The mirror image stuff from Ava's Drawings, etc. Ummm......!

Okay - I love this stuff!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Just a quick pop-in -

SweetJo - I think that is a great catch that the "V" shape makes a <> Diamond! Also, to tie in the talk about mirrors, if you place a V against a mirror, it gives the illusion of a diamond. The mirror image stuff from Ava's Drawings, etc. Ummm......!

Okay - I love this stuff!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

OK, let's see if this works. If you look at a diamond, which the Granolith definitely looks like, it is made up of many different V's...I hope this pic works to explain what I am talking about...

Hmmmmm...

Okay, so I'm crazy. And I really get a kick out of watching the pillow fight in reverse and Grant's snarl too. Try it, you'll like it. Is it Monday yet?

Anyway, we're taking a laptop but I don't know if we'll have an internet connection, so I may be out of pocket for a while. I'll miss reading all your musings. Keep up the great work.

Next year maybe we'll catch the northern lights!

later!

Zara

I really do think that, eventually, we'll find that Tess was the smallest of small-town BEMs, and that she has a lot in common with Liz. Specificly including brains! Notice, in Wipe-Out, Tess figured out that it was the Skins, and took the lead in giving Courtney a little Q&A. Some gals (so I'm told - what do I know?) intentionally hide their intelligence around guys to appear more attractive. Harding may have trained Tess to do this, and to be Max's yes-woman. In the future, I hope we see more of Tess, and less of Yess.

Note that Ava (more like the original Bride) is sharp enough to do that collage at silverhandprint.com, and she got on well with Liz. King Max has good taste in women; I trust that both (all 3?) of them are worthy.

Zara - We took my laptop to the land of the Big Mouse last November, and as long as you have a local phone number connection for your internet access, it works just fine! So - we hope to hear from you!! Have a wonderful time! I had to watch Roswell in the dark up close to the TV while everyone else slept when there - it was a true sign of obsession!

Shapeshifter - I now HAVE to rewatch those scenes backwards. I admit to being old enough to remember the "Paul is Dead - listen to the album backwards" histeria! I think the diamond pattern is purposefully been included everywhere, and your thoughts make sense to me.

Met - Great picture of a Diamond. Little did we think that our little "V" discussion of long ago would lead to a connection to the ultimate mystery (other than Liz and Max's connection ) - the Granolith! StarBox - this would be a good picture to add to the beginning.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Hmmmmm...

Holy Cow

I had no idea that I would even make sense with the whole V shape/diamond thing last night Really, I thought I was being stupid! I sure am glad that I have finally helped out for once

About the actual diamond having all those V shapes in it. WOW Great observation Metaphys!

Lots of Love,
SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

Since we were already talking about the Granolith, I figured I would do some research on the subject...

OK, there wasn't much out there but the definition of the word Granolith is...

granolith

SYLLABICATION: gran·o·lith
PRONUNCIATION: grn´-lth´´

NOUN : A paving stone of crushed granite and cement.

OTHER FORMS: gran´´o·lith´ic — ADJECTIVE

Now the weird thing that I can't figure out, is that when I did a search on the word, this is what I saw...(if you go to highway61.com and type in the search what is a granolith...this comes up. VERY WEIRD)

1)granolith. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English ...
'The End of the World' http://srd.yahoo.com/goo/Granolith/1/*http://www.bartleby.com (Yahoo)

OK. For the LIFE of me I can't figure out WHY ON EARTH it would say 'The End of the World'. There was nothing on the page about Granolith's to indicate why it was there.

And, do we think it was a mere coincidence that the definition of the word Granolith contains the word Cement??....or perhaps maybe the writers were playing word games with us...

Also, I guess they use this Granolith stone in laying floors.

Anyway, I really don't know what to make of all of this information. However, I'm sure the writers had something in mind...now if we can only just figure it out!!

Smiles,
{~}:}

Zara - have a GREAT trip - what fun!!!

Metaphysical/Zero - I am adding the diamond to the gallery as soon as I post this.

Reggie - whenever you talk about Max and his little harem it gives me the Heebie-Jeebies!! Its like the worst possible abysss Roswell could descend into - Roswell 90210 - will it be Brenda or Kelly??? Blech.
I just really, really, really hope that the writers will elevate the connection between Max and Liz and give it a sacredness and purity and allow our hero and heroine to have a transcendant love.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

A friend of mine who is VERY spoiled sent this to me this morning...I think it was posted on the spoiler board. Anyway, you all just really need to see this. Here's the link!
http://www.geocities.com/dreamersvalentine/

Happy Valentines Day All!!

{~}:}

p.s. It's um, very worth it!!!!!
p.p.s. And it's NOT SPOILERISH at all.
p.p.p.s. ENJOY (I know I did)

I think I figured out that reference to The End of the World tie in with the granolith.

This is after the word granolith:

Stein, G. Stevenson, R.L. Wells, H.G. Reference

Of of these authors must tie in a granolith to the end of the world. Maybe HG Wells, The Time Machine, though I never read it.

Darn, now i might have to go to the library.

Anyway, I have linked the Surprise ep threads on http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology/index.html for those of us who might want to obsess on the Granolith some more. And if you have a Network Administrator at your work place who is monitoring your use of designated "chat" sites like this board (even during your non-existent lunch hour), the above link should be safe. ANYWAY, if you click on the The Science Fiction of Surprise link, and do a Ctrl+F, and search for "granolith," you will find (among other things) the following: quote:Just looked up Granolith in the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary: it comes from "grain," specifically meaning "a seed," and "lithic," a "rock." So: a "seed rock." The OED, for the non-librarians among you, is more or less a dictionary in the form of a large set of encyclopedias that records the meanings of the origins of words.

And Starbox, while I share your cringe-factor on Reggie's harem analysis, I thought he expressed it so well that we must suffer its credibility.

How can you be so sure? I'm not sure why 'The End Of The World' came up on my search...but frankly, I thought it was more than Odd that it did. Even if it was just a mere coincidence.

And the fact that the definition of Granolith -- has the word cememt in it, kind of says to me that no, it's not just a random coincidence.

I mean, have you ever heard of anybody refer to sexual intercourse as 'cementing' before?

And even if we are barking up the wrong tree here and it has no greater meaning...I think it was funny on the writer's part to put that in there, because I am of the mind that it was deliberate.

{~}:}

Shapeshifter: Thanks for the kind words on the last thread. I don't know how much credibility I would have with your 22-year-old, though, because I was 21 when we got married and had our son at 22. We had dated for four years though, so it was time for us to move to the next level.

Met: I'm not sure if this means anything, but diamonds are the only substance hard enough to cut granite. I visited a place that makes headstones once, and the saw that was used to cut the granite had a quarter-inch thick layer of diamonds all around it. Your definition of granolith made me think of it. Diamonds are the hardest substance known to man, aren't they? Perhaps the ability to cut most anything was the reason a diamond was used in the granolith.

Also, when diamonds first became popular in jewelry they were not cut and polished like they are now. They were mounted in their natural form, which looks like an octahedron (think of two pyramids joined at the bases).
The diamond looked like a small pyramid sticking up out of the mounting. If I can find the site this info came from again I'll try to post some pics (emphasis on try ).

I think someone mentioned octahedrons in relation to the shape of the pods once, but I can't remember who.

Like I said, don't know if this means anything, just thought I'd throw it out there.

Met - I agree with you that it was probably not a coincidence and was deliberate on the part of the writers. JK and RM are too smart not to think these things out - especially with such a major piece like the Granolith. Now, I don't think they are as thougtful as Josh W over on Buffy w/ respect to where they are taking the show, but I think that is due to being a new show and pressures for ratings from TPTB. However, I do think they have a general idea of where they want to go, and lay clues for us throughout including the names they give things! I just wish we could get all the Dreamers to read this thread, if only the Hero's Journey portion, and I think it would give them hope for M & L. Only, it may not be on a timeline that they like - which I can sympathize with. But then, isn't that what some of the Hero's Journey and other "growth" storylines involve. I'm a very patient person (okay, not all the time ), and can hold out as long as the storylines are moving along in a logical and interesting fashion, and the characterizations (especially Liz and Max) are not corrupted.

Also, TOT - did anyone else see the coming attractions for "Once and Again" last night. Next week's episode involves the actor who plays "Sean" (Devon G.) as a disgruntled waiter (?) holding everyone hostage at the restaurant. I wonder what this means with respect to his future on Roswell. (Remember - if you know - which I do NOT - No Spoilers. I just thought it was interesting that he is showing up on another show given his apparent importance to Liz's storyline right now.)

Oh BTW - I can't remember who posted the link to Max's Italian commercial - but thank you - it was a true Valentine's Day treat. I just wish it was a bigger picture on my computer!

Sorry this was so OT - but without a show to analyze this week, I'm spacing a bit!

Hope everyone had a wonderful Valentine's Day yesterday!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

"I mean, have you ever heard of anybody refer to sexual intercourse as 'cementing' before?"
Nope. Only us. But I'll never be able to see a cement truck in the same light again! I giggle when I see one and everybody around me gives me "those" looks!

for = Roswell!!!

As for granite (grain, as in seeds + -ite, rock): this rock is visibly made up of little black and white grains. It has a nice salt & pepper appearance, for those that have never seen it.

Someone had the definition of granolith as a stepping stone. That makes perfect sense, if the thing is an FTL matter transmitter / receiver. It is a "stepping stone", metaphoricly. The FTL part also can be used as a time machine. It fits, folks, it fits!

Met: I'm not sure if this means anything, but diamonds are the only substance hard enough to cut granite. I visited a place that makes headstones once, and the saw that was used to cut the granite had a quarter-inch thick layer of diamonds all around it. Your definition of granolith made me think of it. Diamonds are the hardest substance known to man, aren't they? Perhaps the ability to cut most anything was the reason a diamond was used in the granolith.

Also, when diamonds first became popular in jewelry they were not cut and polished like they are now. They were mounted in their natural form, which looks like an octahedron (think of two pyramids joined at the bases).
The diamond looked like a small pyramid sticking up out of the mounting. If I can find the site this info came from again I'll try to post some pics (emphasis on try ).

I think someone mentioned octahedrons in relation to the shape of the pods once, but I can't remember who.

Like I said, don't know if this means anything, just thought I'd throw it out there.

Octahedron
Vertices: 6
Edges: 12
Faces: 8
Edges per face:3
Edges per vertex: 4
Sin of angle at edge: 2 * sqrt(2) / 3
Surface area: 2 * sqrt(3) * edgelength^2
Volume: sqrt(2) / 3 * edgelength^3
Circumscribed radius: sqrt(2) / 2 * edgelength
Inscribed radius: sqrt(6) / 6 * edgelength

OK, the only reason I posted this is because I thought it was really funny that they had faces = 8 2 sets of 4 podsters..

Obiously, I have way too much time on my hands today...

I thought it was very interesting what these were used for.

Balancing!! that's what!!
Fluroite helps one to balance and stabilize the emotional, mental, and physical bodies.

Now, this is a picture of teensy, tiny, fluorite Octahedrons. Can you imagine the POWER that one the size of the Granolith would be able to give off?

Anyway, just an interesting observation. Since we have no idea WHAT the Granolith is actually made of, it probably is kind of pointless to speculate about these things -- HOWEVER since we didn't have a new episode this week, it's better than nothing!!

And I love seeing words like "cement" and "Balance" pop up while I'm researching this stuff!!!

I did also find this interesting page http://epimedia.com/gravitypush/one_b.htm

Someone who is adept at science should check it out and let us know your thoughts...It's about Net Kinetic energy differential guidance and propulsion system for satellites and space vehicles. I couldn't make much sense out of it except that it had something to do with octahedrons.

Yes, I am aware that I am losing my mind...I promise I won't post anymore today!!

Smiles,
{~}:}

First - Welcome to the Newbies!

Met - You are amazing!! What intersting finds! What did people do before the internet? Oh - I remember - spend hours at the library! Can you PM a brief summary of what you found, and I will include it in the next up-date to the Intro! That picture of the pentagon formed from the octehegon (sp?) is amazing, and I love the "balance" find!

As we always say - it ALL leads back to Liz! I wonder if anyone from the show ever reads what we chat about, and then laughs outloud!!

I'm still working on a contact with a Set Decorator, but we may have to rely on Bluecornmoon's friend havind lunch with Bill, and Qfanny or anyone else going to LA next week.

TTFN! :lo:
Zero
I Shall Believe!

As we always say - it ALL leads back to Liz! I wonder if anyone from the show ever reads what we chat about, and then laughs outloud!!

I'm still working on a contact with a Set Decorator, but we may have to rely on Bluecornmoon's friend havind lunch with Bill, and Qfanny or anyone else going to LA next week.

TTFN! :lo:
Zero
I Shall Believe!

Hey Zero...

Thanks for the compliment! I would PM you a summary, but I'm not sure exactly what I found!! I will try and put something together for you. I literally had too much free time on my hands today.

In regards to the set designer stuff...I have updated all the questions I have received so far (none from you, by the way!!) at the beginning of this thread. I will keep doing that as it's updated, and keep bringing it over to each new thread until our questions are answered.

Allrighty then. I'm so excited that something I've inputted into the discussion is FINALLY going to be included in your amazing intro!

*dances a little jig of glee*

Smiles,
{~}:}

Is this a general freak-out, or should I be worried?

Seriously, I don't think of Max having a "harem". King, Zan, or Max: I really don't see him as having been in love more than twice. Once on Twilo, with The Bride (Ava/Tess); once on Earth, with Liz. If he was married before on Twilo, that would make three times. How many of us have been in love, two or three times? OK. So if Max takes two lifetimes to do it, is it so toe-curling bad?

Especially since Max is not in love with Tess at the same time as Liz. (He barely knows Ava, although she's probably closer to the original mind of The Bride.) He fell in love with Liz, and did not go off with Tess even though, goodness knows, he had the chance. It will be interesting to see his reaction when Tess and Kyle become an official couple. (Almost as interesting as Liz... )

Valentine's Day? Would have been better with company.

Someone who is adept at science should check it out and let us know your thoughts...It's about Net Kinetic energy differential guidance and propulsion system for satellites and space vehicles. I couldn't make much sense out of it except that it had something to do with octahedrons.

You couldn't make much sense out of it because it's nonsense.
When someone asserts that gravity doesn't exist, and matter as we know it (quarks, etc.) doesn't either, then I......
think I'll pass on accepting that theory as truth. At least until there's better evidence than pseudo-technical blather and pretty pictures.

also that octo-whatchmacallit could also have been the orginal shape the 8 pods came in. then split in half.

Also just a side things here is that HG Well book (man on the moon or something like that)you guys good. I have read the previously mentioned ones and the invisible man and island of dr. moreau. I like the guys and was wondering if it was good.

I'll have to come back later to write some more

Hyper

Having two "kids" in the house, we have those "fortune tellers" around the house all the time - in fact, my daughter got two Harry Porter ones for Valentines yesterday. They are pretty funny actually. BUT alas, they are only four sided, since they are made from a series of 90 degree squares, not 60 degree equalateral triangles - which is what is used for the flower.

Met - I PMed you!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

But I thought the granolith was 12 sided...

But let' assume that the octahedron shape having 8 faces does in fact represent the dupes and R4. Is the octahedron a solid or is it hollow? If you cut it in half, you have 4 sided diamond. Who would fill in and hold the sides together? Could it be Liz? Is Liz the center of the Octahedron and her prophecy is what the "destiny" plan is protecting?

Too bad Zan's not around to fall in love with Liz.

Also, I want you to put on your thinking cap. This will be tough to describe. If you visilize the original 4 square symbol it has the four pods connected with intersecting lines. Imagine the center a point for a 4 sided diamond. If put the 4 sided diamond on it's base (pyrmid like) and flatten it to two dimensions, wouldn't it look like the original four square symbol???

Also, I want you to put on your thinking cap. This will be tough to describe. If you visilize the original 4 square symbol it has the four pods connected with intersecting lines. Imagine the center a point for a 4 sided diamond. If put the 4 sided diamond on it's base (pyrmid like) and flatten it to two dimensions, wouldn't it look like the original four square symbol???

QFanny- Yes, I believe you are right! Great thoughts!

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

Qfanny: You're right! Actually, the person that mentioned the octahedron shape in relation to the pods explained it just backwards from you (does anyone remember who it was?!?). If you pull the intersection of the lines up to a point you have a four-sided pyramid. Whoever noticed this said that in the pyramid shape, each podster would have the most room to grow. If you pulled the intersection point of the lines in both directions, would you have an octahedron??

To those who haven't read Harry Potter (or at least the third one) that won't make any sense! Is someone else able to explain better for me? Somewhere in the back of my cluttered mind this all relates back to Liz, I just have to work it out more first!

Anne

While I haven't read this one yet (I just finished the 2nd ), I do know what you mean! David Eddings used a similar device in The Mallorean series, which was a sequel to The Belgariad series (plus it's been used several times as a Star Trek plot device, and we all know who used to work there!).

The basic idea is this: a series of events occurs. This same series of events keeps reoccurring until something happens to break the cycle. In The Mallorean, what broke the cycle was THE CHOICE. An absolutely critical choice had to be made, and once it was made, then events stopped looping through the cycle and began running on a normal, linear course again.

So--given this, in Roswell terms could the choice refer to Max's choice of his destiny, i.e., Tess or Liz? I think that's a pretty critical choice. I mean, it's so much more than just "I love Liz but I'm supposed to be with Tess." What Max decides will impact on everyone; EOTW showed us that rather graphically!

So here's a thought: maybe the reason proto-Zan ended up dead was because he chose proto-Ava, not proto-Liz (I believe Liz is human, but that souls transcend race--her soul existed before, connected to Max's). EOTW might seem to contradict this, but I think we're all pretty much agreed that it was the timing of the choice that was off, not the choice itself. When it IS the right time, which girl Max chooses will have a huge impact on everything.

As for the Granolith, I speculated before that it was a power-gathering device because of its shape, and the shape of its chamber (a compass rose--an eight-pointed design, I might add ). Nothing else makes any sense to me. Even if it is some kind of matter-transmitter or something, it still needs power in order to function, and I think its design is carefully structured in order to gather as much power as possible.

Qfanny I thought that no one had pointed out the Ava=Tess + Liz shot from MTD before; I was posting here by the time that aired, and I didn't remember reading it. I'd noticed the shot before, but when I watched it 2 weeks ago it totally hit me in the face--I guess I was just in complete RBI mode! Thanks for linking it to Ava's collage--that makes me intensely curious now. And aldebaran, good catch on "a queen" not "the queen" referring to Tess. I forget who said that perhaps proto-Ava was the queen of her people and her marriage to proto-Zan was a political alliance, but that's a very good idea.

BTW, I keep referring to the original Royal 4 as "proto-X" b/c it's a linguistic term that more or less refers to the earliest form of a language. I just thought it kind of fit, and it creates less confusion that way Also, I'm posting during the day b/c I'm home sick, so I'm sitting here all bundled up and feeling miserable--but happy, b/c I'm pretty much caught up now!

OT: If anyone's interested, I've put the entirety of my fic "The Forging of a Lifebond" on the repost board at Jen007's board--all 7 parts (what's completed to date; the fic isn't finished). If anyone wants the addy, please PM me. Thanks for indulging me
~Tas

On the subject of octahedrons/diamond/triangle shapes - check out the octagon at the Dupree's and Atherton's home for reference.

Is it just me or is the resemblance here uncanny? I cant imagine them casting such similar "looks" accidentaly.

Rosta's thread had some great information linking the images of vines to the hybridization - look at these images from the Dupree estate -
Vines on the window:

Vines on the gate:

Vines on Liz's jacket! Foreshadowing that she has a role in the hybrid process too????

Creepy Sean in the mirror

Creepy Sean with his space "gun" (killing aliens??) - but look at the pattern on the couch as well. Sickles relate to Aries which relates to Michael. Kind of cool.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Is it just me or is the resemblance here uncanny? I cant imagine them casting such similar "looks" accidentaly.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

JK did say that Jennifer and Larry were particular favorites of his that he would like to bring back. Hmmmmmmm.

Snow Day in the Seattle area today, so kids are home! It should be crazy today!

Tasyfa and Anne - I have read all the Harry Porter books (which are excellent for all ages BTW!), and the part that Anne brought up is very interesting in how it relates here. In the book, it is a voluntary decision to repeat time for practical purposes that later becomes critical to the plot. Different than the time-repeating sequence Tasyfa described. I always think of the movie "Groundhogs Day" when I think of that type of thing. "X-Files" recently has an episdoe that was about a fellow who involuntarily kept repeating time, not knowing what had actually happened, until he made a critical "choice" that caused time to stop repeating and become linear again. We chatted about it at the time we were discussing the "Run, Lola, Run" connection to TEOTW. It will be interesting to see how, and if they do, tie in the "time repeats itself" storyline in at all. (Remember - there is a big difference between "time repeating itsel" and "someone going back into the past to change events." In the former, all the same characters are present - like Groundhogs Day, but in the latter one of the one character (or more) are in the past along with their "past selves." In TEOTW, we had a case of time travel in the Harry Potter form. I hope I'm not being totally confusing.

I do agree that Max's ultimate choice will be key - and that the timing of the original choice was key, not the person who he choose. I hope I'm not babbling now!

I do think that the Granolith Chamber is a source of Great Power - but how it derives that power and how it transmits or uses it, is the big mystery!

All the information about diamonds, Vs, octehedrons is so cool! I appreciate all the work you all have done to come up with this info!

Starbox - Great pictures!

Finally - I never noticed the camera shots when the Dupes first meet the Podsters - and I think that is VERY telling that they grouped Tess and Liz in the counter shot to Ava! Ummmm.....

Okay - off to Try and work with kids around! At least the skiing should be great tomorrow morning!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Your octahedron is composed of two square-based pyramids, stuck base to base. There are eight sides, hence the name, and six corners.It is not related to a tetrahedron. If you take a square (like the pod symbol), and "pull up" the center, it makes a square-based pyramid. If you push the center back down, you get your square back. No coincidence. And if you did this from both sides, yes, you'd have an octahedron. But octahedra aren't related to anything in particular...

Here's my post, from Maxcedo's files...
http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology/Thread28WAF1.htm

quote:By Reggie, 01-26-2001, 01:32 PM

( quote:Originally posted by Evid: )
It's strange how Ava placed the names on both 4 squares. (...) As you can see Lonnie and Ava are cress cross from each other and Zan and Rath are also. (...) Now we have Max and Tess, who are cress cross from each other, and Isabel and Michael are also. {unquote}

Well, let's not get carried too far away, here. The two "bunches" (units of four connected pods) were probably each grown in a large artificial womb, to enable the tissues of the pods themselves to grow and develop as well as the embryos inside. As such, the four pods, connected at one point, would naturally form themselves into a tetrahedron. (A four-pointed pyramid, with triangular sides. Don't make me explain geometric theory to you!) They'd have more room that way. Since "Ava" drew the bunches flat, she couldn't represent the 3-D shape exactly. Depending on how you lay them out, any of the possible arrangements are accurate.

3-D visualization - it's a guy thing.

I remember that post, but I guess I didn't see the relevance of the tetrahedron relating to all eight podsters. I think that the octahedron's center is Liz, and she holds everything together.

Thanks for reposting that. I knew I wasn't that brillant on my own, and that I had help.

But I don't think visual aptitudes are gender based. I am quite good at visual puzzles.

Reggie - I'm glad that you re-posted your information from before! It make so much more sense now with all the other discussions. BTW - I agree with Qfanny - visualization is not gender specific. I was a math major in college (many moons ago), and I'm a very visual person. Also, when you were describing the tetrahedron it made me thing of this puzzle of a three sided pyramid that I was constructing with my daughter at "Wizards of the Coast." It was fun! I agree, from a space conservation, and practical travel approach, packing the four pods in a tetrahedron shape makes sense!

It's amazing, even without an episode, we can find lots to discuss!

Have a great evening!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

courtesy of crashdown.com

While were at it, I've never noticed the sign before...

And what does 216 mean???

Anything else puzzling you?

There is a hidden planet in the V constellation.

See how the lights that form a V point to Liz, and there is an extra "light" on the left side....

courtesy of crashdown.com

Here's the Royal Seal to compare. What do you think? Is there a hidden planet?

I thought that the running scene may have been cut... Too bad, I would like to know more about what was happening in it.

I knew that the Alien Zone screencap was from Pilot, I just never noticed the picture before, and the 216 number followed by N M. It seems to me it could be a clue to the Royal Four.

There were two bunches of pods. One was sent to NY, the other kept in NM. The "lobes" or "arms" of each bunch would reach out in the directions of the corners of a tetrahedron. This isn't some mystic order; it's just the shape of the thing, and why the names don't list in any particular order.

Where did we come up with an octahedron? It's got 8 sides, of course, but six corners: OK if you have podsters in sixes... but ours come by the four. We got two bunches. (As far as we know...)

See how the lights that form a V point to Liz, and there is an extra "light" on the left side....
Palomino's reaction: (direct quote, honest!) "Oh, fer Pete's sake! No!"

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Originally posted by Qfanny:
There is a hidden planet in the V constellation.

See how the lights that form a V point to Liz, and there is an extra "light" on the left side....

Palomino's reaction: (direct quote, honest!) "Oh, fer Pete's sake! No!"Hey Palomino & Reggie, back with more straws to Max, er, uh, clutch at. See, there's possibly another planet there:

Yeah, tell THAT to Bill Clinton!!

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'm actually a Clinton fan...

Anyway, QF cool pic. Which eppy was that. My head hurt too much to try and figure it out from your pic.

Here is a question-Now that we know where Michael came from are the others going to find there human DNA "families" as well?

Also have you guys seen the trailor for the movie that Colin is in on TV. Just thought I'd mention it since they kept showing it during the WB shows 2night.

Can't wait till Monday for more question and little answers. Which is good so we can play a little more, hehehe

Hyper

I've been discussing Liz's character on my thread at http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/005099.html Could I get you and any other Liz fans to head over and tell me if I am seeing her like I'm supposed to? Thanks.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

The picture of Liz with the lights behind her is from Ask Not.

Also, at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/stuff/xliz2.htm is the shorter version (recommended for those of us with slow connections).

I'll be making print outs of TicTac V Harding.

A few ideas-
The relationship: Why did these 2 not stay together??... There is safety in numbers, right?? You would think that they'd want to stay together on Earth..

I think that Harding ruined the mission for the Granolith, either he was contracted by Kivar or the thought of all the Granolithic power for himself? There were 2 other alien corpses at the crashsite.. I think that they were killed by Harding after the crash. I believe that Tic-Tac didn't know about Hardings betrayal until after they rescued the pods..
More to come...

I wasn't really going to post my comments on TicTac V Harding here. I was going to print off screencaps and print out the information Zero summarizes in her introduction, as well as making a print out of maxcedo's file. Specifically, www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/tictac.htm and the following discussion of previous posts at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/tictac2.htm

One of the nice things about maxcedo's it is an instant reference to the big theories that evolved from season one... So if you want to, you can read up on what was discussed right away... I am really running short on time before my flight. I leave on Tuesday, but today I must be packed because tomorrow I am cleaning, Monday's are always hectic and Tuesday I am leaving.

Attention
I am making a print out of Zero's introduction of thread 29. I am going to put this in a binder and I hope I will have the chance to give this to Shiri and let her know how much we love her and how much we love Liz!

I want to give as many posters on this thread as much credit as possible, if you email me with the subject. Liz Myth - (your screenname) I will type up an acknowledgement on the inside folder with your name.

I just want to let you know that I do not know if I will actually meet Shiri... But in the off chance I do, I would love to be able to tell her, and show her just how dedicated we are!

nimedeus@aol.com You do not have to type anything in the message, just tell me Liz Myth - Your Screenname and I will put it on the sheet.

Qfanny - I e-mailed you! Let me know if you don't get it. I included the Intro in a Word document. Have a blast in La La Land!

Can hardly wait for Monday night!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

How would Liz, an admitted human, imprint the sign of the Royal Family of Antar onto a hybrid created by said people? I need some clarification on that one.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

I think we can chalk up the orientation of the silver handprint switching from a left print to a right print as a simple make up error. I am told there is a dimesional-swap theory floating around about that one somewhere however. Unfortunatly, I haven't seen any of the episodes you've mentioned YET so I can't contribute there.

quote:
From how or where Liz has royal seat?
First I want answer for question - in first time Max get from Liz flash - how Max look to her when he come from bus - then Liz get same flash back from Max in Crashdown - how this is possible?If Liz has this flash first - there is possible - she has royal seat to.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm...no. The first time Liz received a vision was when Max healed her. He told her to look at him and placed his hand over the wound. Visions flash and the wound heals. One of the visions is Max seeing her in kindergarten in her cupcake dress. Later at the Crashdown, Max sends her a vision of how he first saw her stepping off the school bus when he was six years old and she was on the playground.

There is nothing (at least that I have read or seen) to suggest that Liz is anything but 100% totally human up to the point before Max healed her. Ava says in "Max in the City" that because of that, she was "changed." Max is a hybrid, a combination of alien essence and human DNA. Those that created him imprinted the image we saw in that episode on his brain to identify him as a member of the Royal Family of Antar. I do not believe Liz gave it to him. How could she have? She isn't an alien. She's human.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

Sry. about royal seal - it right - Max didnt get it from Liz.Why I change my mind? Look
again MITC.When the ambassador (or What)say
"Your Hignes"- after Max reflection in his map!

sry.gram.

Taysfa: I completely agree that whomever Max chooses will have a deep impact on our gang. We've already seen what would have happened had Max chosen Liz as planned, but since that is no longer possible, what could happen now? Although my dreamer heart shudders at the thought of Tess as more than a friend to Max, I am still nonetheless intrigued at the possibilities and issues that will occur as a cause. Tess brings out the alien, more aggressive side of Max. Liz brings out the human, compassionate side. Max will need a mix of both. Liz is better suited to bring out that mix than Tess. That said, however, Liz can also become a liability by his need to be with her, protect her, and his love for her. Tess is no-strings: he doesn't love her, and doesn't feel the need to protect her. Now, especially after FM's visit, it would be interesting to see what will happen.

Seriously OT question: Where can I find the latest Barbie Roswell Theater? They are so funny!

Anne

1. Max had to connect with Liz to heal her. HE got flashes from her - without her knowing. LIZ SENT NOTHING. She was a dying human. It was the same with Kyle.

2. Max later went to the Crash Down and tried something with her that he was not sure would work. He said he was going to "try to reverse the connection so you can see it's still me". He said he had to touch her and she gave permission. AT NO TIME WAS LIZ EXHIBITING POWERS - ONLY MAX.

3. The change in her seems to be that she can recieve flashes from Max only, as if she is tuned in to him.

4. The Royal Seal. Even if Liz had been an alien with lots powers, and she had been carrying the Royal Seal herself, MAX would already have it unless he was an imposter - the emissary knew this and this is why Max was tested. The aliens would not have certified Max as King Zan if the Royal Seal was that easy to pass around. If it was transferrable, what was the point of using it to identify the king? NONE.

If Liz carries her own Royal Seal, then she is an alien, and they would have a difficult time of making it sound plausible at this point. The heart of the show is the love story inwhich an alien falls in love with a human despite destiny and arranged couples. Who says aliens can't fall in love at first sight too?

3. The change in her seems to be that she can recieve flashes from Max only, as if she is tuned in to him.

[/B]

Liz also recieved flashes from Nasedo. WE do not know how extensive her ability to "flash" is at this point.
Also - I want to make a point that the writing strongly suggests that Liz had flashes WHILE she was being healed - before the reverse connection. It is also clarified in EOTW that Kyle (another dying human) did NOT get flashes during the healing.

Not that I think Liz has the royal seal on her brain - just making a clarification about Liz's flashes.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Vihmakass In "A Roswell Christmas Carol", Max heals the children with both his left and right hands. (The little blond boy across from Sydney was done with his left.) I would say that he uses whichever is more convenient or comfortable at the time. It's nice to know he can use either hand.

I don't think he healed anything in the boy with his right hand. Probably the actor was told to use that hand because he was on the left side of the bed, and using the right hand would have put his elbow in the boy's face. There are other episodes inwhich Max uses his left hand for his powers. I am right handed, but I often do things with my left, especially if it is more convenient. I am glad to see that Max is not restricted to only his right hand. It makes sense that he could use either.

What if Zan had to "commit a random act of kindness" or self-sacrifice - or many, before they feel he is ready to take on the job of serving the people unselfishly? I'd say healing Liz was step one.

Thus she is changed: part alien and part Ruler of Antar.

If we say that just the act of bringing someone back transfers the Royal Seal, then we have a trinity. Max, Liz, and Kyle.

Now that's a complicated triangle.

What does that make Kyle? Some possibilities:
a. 2nd in command - bumping Michael?
b. adopted son of Mommy/blood brother to Zan?
c. court jester?
or my and Tess's favorite,
d. Royal gopher.

Sry.gram.i hope you understand idea

See how the lights that form a V point to Liz, and there is an extra "light" on the left side....
picture by Shapeshifter:
I'm cross-posting this from "Politics...", because it's related; and no one'll see it there.

quote:Originally posted by Palomino:
Golly Reggie, I didn't want to be the "last word" on anything.

A question for anybody out there:

Notice alot of the alien life glows? On Earth, bioluminescence is found usually in darkened habitats. If the SSers and the bactrium from their ship both glow (as well as Max making his chosen mate glow during foreplay), does this sound like their planet is low on light? This might help to explain why SSers have such large eyes too.

Any thoughts?
Well, didn't Qfanny suggest that one of the Five Planets was odd, or something? Suppose that one of them is the moon of a gas giant planet, further out in their star system? This would give the low light, and the odd-looking representation of the planet.

To get back to politics, suppose that there is a civilization on the gas giant as well? These would have to be very odd creatures, for such an environment... like the critters that inhabit the Skins? So maybe Vilondra fell in love with a Twilonian-shaped Skin? It would also explain why these folks are referred to as "Skins" - maybe they are only ever seen (off of their world) as inhabited husks?

Any takers?

I think Kyle would prefer to be Royal Buddha, carrier of the spiritual side of King Zan. And maybe the warrior also.

Maybe Tess senses this and is attracted to it?

Liz carries his heart.
And perhaps more. She did have visions of the crash in SH.

Perhaps Max unconsciously saw that Liz's intellect/leadership/ability to solve problems was greater than his and that is why the tranfer took place.

Max seems to be losing more and more of himself. Is that why he looks so lost this season?

IMO he should seek to reconnect with what he lost to find himself again.

One of my pet theories is that Max recognized Liz because he "remembered" what would happen from Future Max. He "remembered" that he would heal her, fall in love with her, she would solve science problems for them, she would save him in NY, etc. I know this sets up an impossible chicken-or-egg-first scenario with regards to time dimensions, but that doesn't bother me.

Whoa, I think I missed that! What did Future Max do with his left hand?

I understand that many right handed people are ambidextrous, but it would be very odd if Future Max was favoring his left hand over his right. I really didn't notice it, though.

I suggested that? Hey, I'm good. I wasn't even thinking that when I wrote it.

But if I did suggest it, I'm now going to kill it. The purpose of the symbol in Max's head is to identify him to other's of his race that he is Zan, their former king. I believe that it was imprinted on his brain from the beginning when his essence was combined with human DNA. Since the Four were reborn, those who recreated them must have WANTED them to return. Why would they take the risk of him not being able to be identified by making it so that he couldn't be until he performed an act of kindness by healing a particular girl? That's not a chance I would be willing to take if I needed Max to save my planet.

Someone mentioned that the visions happened with Max first seeing one from Liz first, then sharing one with her "making the connection go the other way." I totally agree and probably meant to say that the first time though I'll admit I'm not at 100% around 5 A.M.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

1. He assumed he was an alien whose parents had been killed when they accidentally crashed here. He wanted despirately to be human, and normal.
2. He, Michael, and Isabel concidered themselves siblings, because they knew nothing else.
3. He was afraid of someone finding them out and killing/torturing them.
4. He was afraid of his parents finding out and rejecting him, dispite Isabel's belief to the contrary.

This season Max has more problems and insecurities to deal with :
1. He knows he is a hybrid with a past life, and a tough future.
a. He has to be a great leader.
b. He is here by design (literally), and people have died because of the mission to resurrect the Royal Four. He would feel unworthy.
c. He will not be allowed to hide as a human and have a normal life. He has no choice.
d. He has a ton more responcibilies, and many more to come when he tries to reclaim his throne, and then rule his planet.
e. Tess has told him that past-life memories can be retrieved. (We have seen one - more are probably on the way. At what point is Max Evans lost and Zan reborn? Fear of death of self?) Towards the end of last season, Max revieled that he was afraid of his alien side, and was afraid of losing his identity as Max Evans. He is constantly being bombarded this season by who he is. Even when he though he was safe from the feds and no enemy had shown up over summer, he is jerked back to reality by his protector dying in his arms - in a safe haven, his own bedroom.

2. a. He has, in effect, lost his brother. Michael is now only a 2nd in command - not family, and doesn't even act as if he likes Max. Max can not confide in weaknesses to Michael anymore. Michael already believes Max is too weak. This was an unforseen rejection.
b. He has found his sister, whom he loves and trusts more than anyone else, betrayed him in their past lives. He tells her how much he loves and trusts her still, but this has to hurt underneath.
3. He has been tortured and persecuted because of who he is, by the FBI and Skins.
4. He is still afraid of his parents finding out. To lose them would be even more devestating.

To top it off, he lost his soulmate when he needed her the most, and he has been told he made bad decisions in his past life. Revolution and betrayal by his sister must create tremendous doubts and even more insecurities than before. He can't even take the human teen way out of running away or suicide, because that would cause even more deaths and suffering.

Under crushing pressure, will Max crack or explode?

Palomino, I rewatched ARCC with my daughter last night and was thinking that his 'haunting' was a direct result of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.

The subject of the email should look like this:

Liz Myth - (screenname)

If you want to write a short message on why you like Liz go ahead. I will print it out.

But you have to do this before 6:00 pm CT on Monday Night. When I leave for work on Tuesday, I am not going home until Monday of next week. And I will not have a computer with me. (Oh the horror.)

I agree about the "ghost" in ARCC. He learned nothing from the ghost that he couldn't have found out in the newspaper. The ghost actually told him to do something that would make Max feel better. The ghost behaved exactly as Max would have thought he would - no surprises. Once Max began to obsess on healing all of the children, the ghost disappeared from the room. I don't think Max had the energy to keep his ghost buddy going while he was expending so much energy trying to heal the children, so the ghost disappeared after the 2nd(?) child.

I don't think the ghost ever existed, except in Max's mind.

I don't think the writers have been doing a very good job at portraying Max as a sufferer of PTS. Perhaps their way out is to say that Max's alien side makes him immune to mental disorders?

Also, at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/stuff/xliz2.htm is the shorter version (recommended for those of us with slow connections).

I heard it! the slow connection version anyway! Someone mumbles "we have to get rid of her." It's definately there! Thank you shapeshifter!

LIZ: When you see me, do you, do you feel things.
KYLE: Yes, of course. I feel things. Like what?
LIZ: Forget it, I don't know what I was talking about. I'm just gonna go get some sleep.
KYLE: All right.

It seems like Liz is trying to find some way to get a handle on what she has experienced -
and that a "connection" occured at the moment of the healing. A connection that seems too weird to be real. Take this exchange with the one in EOTW when she flat out asks if he saw things when he was healed and I think it is pretty obvious that 2+2=4 - Liz flashed during the healing. Liz also consistently refers to the HEALING as being the moment she feels she was "changed". Not the reverse connection. Also - during the reverse connection Max tells her to "let her mind go BACK" Back to what - to the healing? To a deeper past???
We only see flashes from one POV when they occur - most of the SH flashes were shown from Liz's perpective - but we are to assume that Max was flashing on things too at the same time - it just wasnt shown. I believe that during the healing we only saw Max's POV but something was happening to Liz as well.
Liz's flashes appear to be intuitive in nature and impressionistic. She also "sees" things that are "hidden" in the past.
The podsters - on the other hand - flash on childhood memories or fantasy when they conect with a human.
The "flashes" Liz got during the reverse connection were a way of seeing what Max saw - they were like "borrowing" his ability to have a flash. They were quite different than the flashes that Liz has on her own.
JK described Liz's flashes as being "alien in nature" in his season one commentary. I think that Liz's ability to have them was set in motion by the healing itself - not by the reverse connection - and I think the ability is internal to Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I would go on longer but I don't have the time. Have to met my mom for dinner. Her birthday is tomorrow.

I always understood it to have nothing to do with Liz being "changed", more, Liz having this rare connection with Max. It's the lifebond thing again. Michael and Maria, while they love each other, don't share the same connection as Max and Liz. More likely it has nothing to do with Liz's genetic makeup. I think it has more to do with their connection pulling things out of Max's mind that were deeply buried. Things he'd need help to get out of his mind. Sort of like a deep memory transfer.

Make sense?

Anne

Liz Parker, Giver of Truth and Light of the World

I just hope the Light of the World shares the Truth with the King of the World before it's too late.

...
If Liz carries her own Royal Seal, then she is an alien, and they would have a difficult time of making it sound plausible at this point. The heart of the show is the love story inwhich an alien falls in love with a human despite destiny and arranged couples. Who says aliens can't fall in love at first sight too?

Palomino - Nice to see you here! I wanted to comment on a couple of your comments. You say that Liz receives flashes from only Max. Actually, Liz has received flashes from Evil/Harding/Max and (I believe) that some of the "flashes"/visions that Liz received in SH were coming from someone/where other than Max. (Though I do believe they are incredibly in synch with each other.) I believe that Liz was receiving them from another alien, possibly Tic Tac. But, then - we haven't seen Tic Tac this season, so ... But, that is my thoughts on that.

I do agree that Liz is completely human, it is her ancestry and human origins, that I believe "may" connect her to the aliens somehow/way. I think that is the entire point of this thread - that somehow/way Liz is important to the alien mythology, and that she has a connection to Max other than just "love at first sight" that has yet to be determined or explained, and may go back many generations.

Back to reading the rest of the posts.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I just hope the Light of the World shares the Truth with the King of the World before it's too late.

Me, too!

Palomino Your post on why Max looks a little lost this season was amazing. I found this esp. thought-provoking:
"At what point is Max Evans lost and Zan reborn?"
That's a completely new perspective for me; I appreciate it having been brought up

StarBox I believe Max says, "Let your mind go BLANK," not BACK, when he does the reverse connection with Liz. And on the subject of flashes--the kind of lightning-flashes which occurred when Max healed Kyle, did they remind anyone of the lightning-flashes that occurred when Max connected with GC's spirit to let Liz say goodbye to her? B/c that's what they made me think of. Maybe Kyle was closer to death than Liz was? Max got to Liz faster, that much I'm sure of. Just a thought!

This has undoubtedly been covered before, but since I've only recently seen Destiny and it's been bugging me, I'm going to share I replayed the Momogram over and over, and this sentence bothers me:
"I have sent with you your young bride, my daughter, the man you were betrothed to, and your brother's second in command."
Now, I have a BA in Linguistics. While I haven't been in a semantics class for about 3 years, this sentence says to me that there are FIVE people. Ignore the fact that there were only 4 pods (esp. since we know that there were really 8 anyway ), and the shapeshifters. What if the Momogram really was referring to all 5 people in the room? That would make Tess the 2nd, and Michael just the King's brother-in-law, while Liz would be the YB. If the last two parts were in fact both referring to Michael, the sentence SHOULD have read:
"I have sent with you your young bride, my daughter, and the man you were betrothed to, your brother's second in command."
But it doesn't read that way, it's just the camera shots and the fact that we believe there are only 4 in total that cause us to interpret this sentence to mean that Michael is both Isabel's betrothed & the King's 2nd. Now, Nicholas did seem to recognize Michael as the 2nd, but that could have been an assumption on his part as well. Or alternatively, I could be completely out to lunch here! Which is the most likely; it's just that the phrasing was really bothering me
~Tas

Palomino - I thought your summary of what Max is going through and facing this season excellent! It is impossible to even comprehen what it would be like to face such a present and future.

As to Liz receiving "flashes" during her healing - I also think that it has been "hinted" at in many places, but in the Pilot, Liz was basically trying to sort out everything that had happened to her. Having a "near-death" experience (I do not believe she was ever "dead," though do believe that Kyle may have been) alone would be extremely confusing (with lots of "flashes" going on in the brain), much less when you mix in the "healing" by Max - and the emotion involved with that "connection." I also believe the "change" comes from the original "connection," though the "reverse connection" may have "sealed" the connection and "flow" of information between the two of them. She was now "open" to future connections with Max. Again - though, I believe that Liz has received visions from beings other than Max and Evil/Harding/Max. I think the visions Liz received in SH had to come from someone other than Max who actually was conscious after the crash. I don't think Max-in-pod, could have memories of hiding the ord or running from army men.

BTW - Chad Evans - I have not ignored your thread, I just haven't had time to read it all. I barely have time to get here to read, but I will try!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

One of my pet theories is that Max recognized Liz because he "remembered" what would happen from Future Max. He "remembered" that he would heal her, fall in love with her, she would solve science problems for them, she would save him in NY, etc. I know this sets up an impossible chicken-or-egg-first scenario with regards to time dimensions, but that doesn't bother me.

Since we have heard about time existing in multiple subsets on the Skins' planet, and the granolith can be used to time-travel, there is yet another possibility of a future Max knowing Liz. (This was an old theory I came up with a long time ago, so just bear with me if you've heard it before.)

[I] What if the original Zan time-travelled and visited Earth to see what it was like? Maybe he wanted to see if we would advance, and if we were worth contacting? Any number of possibilities. Using a puppet like Larek, he could have roamed our near future and met Liz. What if Zan the Original fell in love with an adult Liz, and when little Max saw her, recognized her mentally from his "past" life? There could be scads of subplots and politics like the "we have to get rid of her" line in the pilot.

I know, a little wierd.

P.S. Shapeshifter : Reggie has the comparative shapeshifting of Harding and Tic-tac to send you tomorrow. He had to go to bed early as we are on the east coast.

Oh, and I have a new, very unromantic theory for the "we've got to get rid of her line." Unfortunately, I think it's the most likely:
The actors had very small parts. Thus far, most of the small-part actors on Roswell have not seemed to understand the flavor of the show. For instance, T. Greer in Harvest and last week's cousins of Laurie played it in a very high-drama, campy style--not at all like the subtle Pierce or Stephens. I know, agent Stephens quickly died and was resurrected on West Wing. But my point is that the shooters may very well have just been told to sit at the table and argue and then get up and have the shooting scene. So then "we've got to get rid of her" would have just been generic tough-guy-shooter blathering.

1. The hot car they were driving.
2. The bimbo that has been hitching a ride with them for the last seven states.
3. They are Tic-tac and Nasedo arguing about Tess - Nasedo won.
4. Thet are T-t and Nasedo arguing about Valondra - T-t won.
5. Grandma Claudia who was plagerizing (sp?) their work.
6. A third partner in crime.

Just kidding.
But seriously, if you take a look at what else they were saying, it seems to have been an argument involving money. "I want to see the money on the table!" They are also not recognized by anyone in the CD, and are never found, so they are strangers.

If they were aliens and it were a plot, there would be an infinate number of ways to kill Liz "accidentally" without the attention, risk to themselves, and risk of not hitting her, or otherwise succeeding. The CW's diary on silverhandprint says they checked out Roswell and disreguarded it. In 2000 she still doesn't believe anything is there until Pierce goes there.

I don't think the writers are dumb enough to make anything conspiratorial out of the shooting. Well ......

Where is Tic-tac?
Sleeping with the red herrings.

about the dates being stuffed up, i hve another one for you -

between Independence Day and Sexual Healing, it was six days, i think. in those six days, Hank disappeared, Michael was accused, left Roswell, returned, gained his independence, found an aprtment and moved in? six days????

anyway....

-gij

OMG. I don't know why I didn't put this together in my head before I saw this...

A few months ago I was in Washington D.C. and checking into my hotel. There were these two guys checking in at the same time who looked completely familiar to me, but I couldn't place it. I was very tired and not totally alert.

Later on I realized, when I saw them filming the West Wing, that the two guys I saw were on The West Wing...and now I just put together that one of them was AGENT STEPHENS!!! Why this didn't occur to me before, I have no idea.

Anyway, I just had an epiphany when reading that last post, and as epiphany's go, when you have 'em you want to share 'em.

{~}:}

I just wanted to remind you all to get your questions to Met before this evening. We have a "contact" who is going to get them to someone on the inside to see if we can get some answers. But they need to be posted by this evening - though we can start another list for future questions. I can't disclose the contact - they have asked for confidentiality, which I completely respect - but I do appreciate their effort!!

Also, Qfanny - please take the questions, too! The more information we can get from a variety of people the better!!

Here's to an interesting episode tonight - I'm rewatching the Chronicles in the background right now to get ready for tonight! Also - I understand there is a chat with JB on AOL this evening. If anyone wants to try and get him to answer a "Liz Myth" question - that would be great, too!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Hey everybody. Just checked my PM's and I had no new questions.

Zero -- I am intrigued!! I didn't know we actually found someone who could get the questions where they need to go!! I won't pressure you for info, but I'll just say Woo Hoo.

Qfanny - Let me know if you need me to email you the questions in a word document or whatever. I'll do whatever I can to help!!

I'm still freaking out over my earlier revelation that I had actually run into agent stephens without knowing it!!

{~}:}

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

1. Max had to connect with Liz to heal her. HE got flashes from her - without her knowing. LIZ SENT NOTHING. She was a dying human. It was the same with Kyle.

2. Max later went to the Crash Down and tried something with her that he was not sure would work. He said he was going to "try to reverse the connection so you can see it's still me". He said he had to touch her and she gave permission. AT NO TIME WAS LIZ EXHIBITING POWERS - ONLY MAX.

3. The change in her seems to be that she can recieve flashes from Max only, as if she is tuned in to him.

4. The Royal Seal. Even if Liz had been an alien with lots powers, and she had been carrying the Royal Seal herself, MAX would already have it unless he was an imposter - the emissary knew this and this is why Max was tested. The aliens would not have certified Max as King Zan if the Royal Seal was that easy to pass around. If it was transferrable, what was the point of using it to identify the king? NONE.

If Liz carries her own Royal Seal, then she is an alien, and they would have a difficult time of making it sound plausible at this point. The heart of the show is the love story inwhich an alien falls in love with a human despite destiny and arranged couples. Who says aliens can't fall in love at first sight too?[/B]

This is what I think. I believe that Liz is houman, however, I believe that what makes her special is that maybe she has a superior intellect for a human and maybe Liz is the ONLY one in the world that can connect with the aliens on a superior emotional and intellectual level.

I also believe that Max is Liz's human soulmate and Liz's is Max's human soulmate. it's that simple. Maybe SHE is the one who can connect with him on all levels, while he is on this earth, regardless of what the book has says or the original design. (I have been spoiled so I can't go too far on that)

As for the flashes that Liz gets. I think that the way to ID Liz's as the "ONE" was to see if she can receive the reverse connection. If she could, then she is the one.

Because maybe whoever designed the alien/human fetuses knew that there must be a test for the human, let's just say they called her a "special".

If Liz, who is the "special" could connect with the "king" during the reverse connection, then that would prove two points for them. Only the "special" could substain the connection, thus she would be able to recive the "flashes" in SH, which were messages.

And only the true "King" would be able to send the reverse connection to the "special" and successfully complete. So maybe Max was proven to be the "king" long before the emmissary's test. They knew the real King was there because the "King" and his "special" had already found the orbs to send the message.

Finally, it's kind like, 'well if your reading this message, then I know you found the special' or whatever. Maybe Liz is the only one that has the mental capacity to be the "special" and is Max's match.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Why don't you ask him how important does he think Liz is to Max's survival and does he think that Max and Liz have a deeper and more
cosmic connection than just a "crush".

That way, we can avoid being spoiled, because many of us already have, so.

I think the one question I would have would be, What did you actually mean when you told Liz that she "needed to be able to grow" in WAF? I know my interpretation, but I would like to hear his take on it. Thanks.

"The kids have been given two books: the one Tess pulled out of the Library wall, and Grandma Claudia's. Do they ever look at them, or have the books been forgotten?"

May I rephrase it? "How important is Liz's nature to the plot (not counting her love for Max)?"

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

StarBox - This question might not answer any specific questions, but it would give us some insight and I bet JB would answer it!

"Do You Think There Is More To Liz's Connection to Max and the Pod Squad Than Meets The Eye?"

What do you think? It is vague enough that he might feel comfortable answering it, but goes to the core of our belief.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

**StarBox**
mytholgist, dreamer

What if Zan had to "commit a random act of kindness" or self-sacrifice - or many, before they feel he is ready to take on the job of serving the people unselfishly? I'd say healing Liz was step one.
I think this is why the Royal Four's memories were edited out. Mom & co. on Twilo want to see if they are really good people, and/or don't want them influenced by the bad that was in their previous life. Like "karma", only under manual control. Hey, karma: and Kyle's gone Buddhist. Interesting...

**StarBox**
mytholgist, dreamer

I'm questionless at the moment, but bless you for posting it verbatim! Will you be starting a new thread on the Ros board, or just posting it here? Thanks in advance
~Tas

Metaphysicalgrl, if you are freaking out that much about Agent Stephens ( I know I would too! ) then we better get a life-support system ready for you in the event that you ever see JB!

Okay - I just "participated" in the AOL JB chat! I've never done it before, and doubt I will again! It was the most frustrating experience! I thought if I could get some of the questions sent along with StarBox we would have a better chance of at least one getting answered. All the questions picked were totally generic - you could get from a "fan" magazine, with no substance. AND half the time, we couldn't even see what the question was - just the answer broken out in pieces with annoying posters breaking in with maddening comments! (Can you tell I was frustrated! ) And you had to try and figure out what the question might have been. Then it was over - mid-sentence, with no warning! StarBox - Did you have a similar experience? Maybe it was my "row"! The only comment that "seemed" to refer to Liz was totally vague and unhelpful, and NOTHING really about the mythology. Okay - sorry for the rant, but I was hoping we would get a little bit of substance. It must be an age thing??

Zero
I Shall Believe!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Ditto everyone. The chat was annoying. I submitted 30 questions, though!

I have the transcript in case anyone is interested PM me. Or, we have posted it on the Jason Behr boards.

Smiles,
{~}:}

Second - I dont know much about history - it wasnt ever my "thing" - but I THINK this is a clue.
Kyle and Alex find the hive and Alex says "lets go get Max" - Kyle wants to go in the cave - so they do and Alex says "Okay Columbus - you have claimed the land for the QUEEN of Spain".
Is there an implication there that QUEEN Tess and KING Max are not/were not exactaly on the same side.

And the two big questions I have -
Alex tells Kyle "we were both healed by aliens" - ummmmm - WHEN was Alex healed???
I hate to say it - but Alex is seeming less and less "Alex-like".

WHY were the crystals after ISABEL??? They told Grant to kill her/kidnap her - but why???? And how does this relate back to suprise??? And why did Grant have suprise-like scratches on his neck this week???? And HOW did Tess know the crystals hadnt finished with Laurie??? Could there be a Tess/Grant/Isabel link that goes back to the beginning of the season???

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

But why would they expect to find a special human in the first place? How would they know about Liz Parker? Or just happen to put the pod squad in the same town as her? And I don't think Nasedo was on board with this, so it must have been a secret project.

And why would they want this connection to form in the first place? How does it benefit their mission?

Even after the Hybrid Chronicles, we still don't know why they abducted humans and used the gandarium to create hybrids except for the purpose to keep them alive and hidden on Earth.

I would have liked to read Laurie's grandfather's book, esp what he wrote in the form of the orb symbol.

I'm just glad Larek didn't pull an Ed Harding and either ask what Liz (a measly human) was doing there or tell her she didn't "belong". Although was this because Liz is *special* (I know what I'm thinking with this ) or simply because of the way Larek has to *occupy* Earth. Perhaps Larek has more of an understanding of humans (he's more laid back around them, more acceptant / pacient) then Edsedo?

Kyle and Alex find the hive and Alex says "lets go get Max" - Kyle wants to go in the cave - so they do and Alex says "Okay Columbus - you have claimed the land for the QUEEN of Spain". Is there an implication there that QUEEN Tess and KING Max are not/were not exactly on the same side.

Possibly StarBox, although I always believed that (proto) Tess and Max's marriage was one of *convenience* rather than any mutual affection, although there could have been, who knows. My belief, they were two factions united by marriage, no more. Hence, it wouldn't surprise me if Alex's comment had a deeper meaning. Off the top of my head (and believe me, there isn't all that much there unfortunately) the Queen of Spain Alex was referring to was obviously Isabella I of Castile (Tess?) who married Ferdinand II of Aragon (Max?), uniting Spain (under one religion). Their rule, although benefited Spain greatly, also started the Spanish Inquisition. etc etc, although a Britannica probably would be more helpful then me

WHY were the crystals after ISABEL??? They told Grant to kill her/kidnap her - but why????

Maybe because Isabel simply KNEW of their existance... crystals couldn't leave any witnesses (whether they're human or hybrid), hence the crystals wanted Isabel dead? Isabel knew too much.

Although it does seem weird Grant taking her... would he have killed ALL the hybrids? If so, why did he/it wait so long? Grant has been around for a few months, why aren't the podsters dead already?

And how does this relate back to suprise??? And why did Grant have suprise-like scratches on his neck this week????

That's one of my main concerns that I don't know will ever be addressed now that Grant seems to be wormfodder. WHAT was the connection between Grant and Tess' kidnapping?? Was there one at all?? Why did Iz seemingly get the flashes when she wiped away the blood off Grant's neck? If Grant did have a part in the kidnapping, Why? Why would the crystals (or the Queen) seemingly help the Skins?? I suppose we're to assume it was just a fluke Iz got the flash when she wiped the blood off Grant, but it certainly didn't seem unintentional to me post-SURPRISE.

Could there be a Tess/Grant/Isabel link that goes back to the beginning of the season???

A friend of mine was trying to tell me that perhaps there was some time in between S&B and SURPRISE we didn't see... Tess, Isabel and Grant "hanging out" together... hence perhaps there was time for Tess to get to know Grant well enough to have a convo on what to get Iz for her bday. Although I didn't/don't really buy this. Still seems fishy to me why Tess would have conversed with Grant about anything? It's even weirder now knowing what Grant was/is.

You're also right to bring up Tess' seeming *knowing* that the crystals hadn't finished with Laurie StarBox; she seemed so sure. How? Why? Is there a connection between the crystals and Tess we have yet to be made aware of?

Melodious

Mel - You did an excellent job answering StarBox's questions! I will have to rewatch the episode before commenting too much. I feel like this episode just raised more questions than it answered. If we were supposed to understand the human origins based on the Hybrid Chronicles - opps, I don't think so! I did enjoy them though - I just, never mine.

I did think that Tess was given a Liz line - when she stated that the Grandarium had not completed the infection of Laurie. That was clearly a Liz type of observation/discovery, that seemed to have gratuitously been given to Tess??

The entire Iz interaction with Grant strikes me as odd. I do try to look at it from the point of view of someone who thinks that everything they touch gets distroyed - thus, the scene at the end.

I loved the entire Maria/Mikey G interactions! Now if we could only see some light moments between Max and Liz! Okay - I'm a Dreamer! But what about the coming attractions - was that a flash of Liz and Max in wedding attire!!? Okay, it is probably just a dream sequence or something, but I can rewatch it and Dream for a few a nanosecond!

It's late - and other than Larek chatting to the group including Liz without any comment about her belonging or not, I didn't feel there was anything that moved the Liz Myth theories forward, but if other did, please let me know! I did notice the focus on the four square window pane in Mikey G's door when Grant broke in - but ... .

Night all !

Zero
I Shall Believe!
BTW - I just found out a friend is flying me to Las Vegas for her daughter's birthday celebration this weekend! I find it very ironic that I will be in Las Vegas the weekend before Viva Las Vegas! I have not been there for 16 years!

When we first see Grant in his Jeep after being followed by Valenti and Duff there is a sign that says
Bail
24
2+4=6 6 keeps recurring lately

Liz is scared and freaked out by the whole Larek/Brody thing. And she gets him to explain things, taking control. They, I/M/T, all look towards her for the answers. And so then does Larek. The camera or Larek focusing on Tess when talking about the virus. When referring to the Queen they show both Liz and Tess. Have they been split or does Max's decision make one of them Queen and one not?

The Ganderium is a manufactured virus. It has no mind or conscious. It just acts like any other virus, doing what it wsa created to do. So it wasn't really after Isabel or any of the pod squad. It would simply kill anything and everything in it's way.

Tess & Liz have a connection in this episode. When and where did this come up? Or did it just come from the fact that they were totally happy to wrap. They were seperated L/T, M/I, and K/A, why?

And is Maria or Isabel related to Laurie's Grandma Ada Jane? And did Laurie get emancipation? For a girl that everyone called crazy? Confused here.

Oh and StarBox, I didn't hear anything about Alex saying that they were healed by aliens. I think he was saying that we know about aliens. Can you tell me when you heard it? I could be wrong.

Alright. I'm gonna go. Check back tomorrow! Night all! Oh, did anyone else just love this episode, even though there weren't any real Dreamer moments or Mythology ones?

I noticed one thing in terms of props:

Laurie D. has the same mirror that Liz has in the pilot (sorry no screencap).

Also, from HTOHL, it can be assumed that the Guandarian virus was on the ship because the 2 sets of pods were created on the ships coming towards earth (why else would they take a deadly virus with them that could kill earth and the podsters?). If they had to create them on the ship then we can assume the group responsible for creating the Pod Squad were fleeing for their lives.

Palomino—you said that we already saw one past life memory? Which one is that? Did I miss something? Great list, BTW. other reasons for “Got to get rid of her comment”

Zero—I agree with your comment about everything the aliens touch gets destroyed, especially with Isabel. Even though I think she has been showcased too much this season, I thought that last scene with her and grant was fitting.

Great job everybody!

Alexis:
In "Ask Not", when M/I/M went to kill Brody, Max had a series of flashbacks of traumatic moments which included an (dead?)alien's head. If you want to see a picture of it, I believe there is one on (page7?) of the Sci-Fi of Disturbing Behavior thread.

I found this over at Cherishing M/L and I wanted to share it here with my fellow Dreamers/Mythologists. Thank you to provence for this screen cap.

Max and his true Bride, Liz.

Evid

Thanks for all the insights on the episode! While I enjoyed this episode, it will be more fun to rewatch now that I will be watching with a more educated and investigative eye!

I also don't understand the Liz/Tess "friendship," but also realize that we have to assume that there is stuff happening off-camera that might mean they are warming up to each other. Plus, Tess - who is getting in "touch" with her human side - may be more friendly to the humans in general, thus, more open to being friendly with Liz!

OT - Someone needs to teach these people how to shovel! This is the second time M&L have had to dig, and boy, are they awful at it!

As to past memories - The "dead cows head" flash Max has is one (as Palomino points out), but - arguably - so are many of the visions that Liz gets - past memories of whomever is sending them to her. I don't think they are her past memories.

Also, interesting to think that the Hybrid were created on the ship! I agree, why else bring a potentially deadly virus with them otherwise. I still say they had to have done it before in order to know that it works (combining the RNA with the DNA using the Granderium as a catalyst - think that is what Larek said). And, Antar had to know something about Earth before sending a ship here with such valuable cargo. More indications that there was past visits!

NOW the big question - and if they DON'T READ GRANDPA'S JOURNALS I'M GOING TO BE MAD - when did Grandpa begin to be "taken"?? And - obviously - the use of his DNA did not affect him too negatively if he died only 7 years ago! Also - I'm so curious about Laurie's Grandma, and the circumstances of her death!

I also wondered about the circumstances of Laurie's sudden sanity and ability to be left with obviously "bad" relatives. Umm ... Though that was a touching scene at the end with Maria & Mikey G!

BTW - Anyone want to post the "Wedding Picture" here from the previews? I know it doesn't have anything to do with the Mythology - I think - and is probably just Liz's imagination in VLV, but I can dream. (I'm no longer spoiled - it was too negative over there, so decided to be unspoiled for the rest of the season - so I'm dying over seeing that flash in the previews!) EVID - I see you were reading my mind!!

Till Later!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

Okay - I just "participated" in the AOL JB chat! I've never done it before, and doubt I will again! It was the most frustrating experience! I thought if I could get some of the questions sent along with StarBox we would have a better chance of at least one getting answered. All the questions picked were totally generic - you could get from a "fan" magazine, with no substance. AND half the time, we couldn't even see what the question was - just the answer broken out in pieces with annoying posters breaking in with maddening comments! (Can you tell I was frustrated! ) And you had to try and figure out what the question might have been. Then it was over - mid-sentence, with no warning! StarBox - Did you have a similar experience? Maybe it was my "row"! The only comment that "seemed" to refer to Liz was totally vague and unhelpful, and NOTHING really about the mythology. Okay - sorry for the rant, but I was hoping we would get a little bit of substance. It must be an age thing??

Zero
I Shall Believe!

That's what AOL chats are usually like. you can turn off the people on your row so you can't see them. AOL chats are ANNOYING and I never go to any of them anymore.

OK here are my thoughts on HTOHL... I can't believe no one has come up with this theory yet... BUT what if Liz has the recessive gene of the donor (Grandma Claudia theories) and that is why Max was instantly drawn to her? Isabel was drawn to Grant when she first saw him. But I know that the gandarium didn't attack Liz when she was inspecting it. Maybe because she's been changed?

Yes, I too wondered about Grant's sratches on his neck and the connection to Surprise.
if Grant said he started losing his memory after he began working in Frasier Woods then how/why did he steal all that other stuff before?

I also saw Liz hug Tess. I think it means we're supossed to like Tess now.

And I picked up on the fact that Larek did NOT say that Liz was not one of them-therefore did not belong. Interesting...or maybe he can't really "see" he can only hear?

I really liked this episode though there were some hokey moments and lots more questions to be answered!

Alexis:
In "Ask Not", when M/I/M went to kill Brody, Max had a series of flashbacks of traumatic moments which included an (dead?)alien's head. If you want to see a picture of it, I believe there is one on (page7?) of the Sci-Fi of Disturbing Behavior thread.

[/B]

Thanks for telling me about that! I don't remember seeing it. I will have to look at my tapes to see it again!

--Isabel's scene with Grant's body was originally much longer. She basically laments never telling him the truth about her, and I believe even refers to him as a man she might have loved. I guess I'll have to personally send Ron Moore a fruit basket for having the sense to realize how out of the blue, bizarre, and just plain revolting such a scene would be.

--I think they also cut Laurie's explanation for how Grandpa 1935 got so rich. He discovered a silver mine.

And I picked up on the fact that Larek did NOT say that Liz was not one of them-therefore did not belong. Interesting...or maybe he can't really "see" he can only hear?

My thoughts on the T/L hug was that they were just so happy that K/A were alive and that they had killed the gernarium and since they were standing close together, they hugged. But I do believe that T/L are going to become friends. I have a feeling that's where the PTB are going to go soon. It's the only way that they are going to get the majority of fans to accept Tess.

Regarding the Larek and Liz interaction, I'm not sure what to make of it. She was really freaked when she found out that it was Larek, yet he seemed to agknowledge that she was part of the group. I don't honestly know what to think about it. I'll have to watch it again. (Oh, Darn!)

Great job on the updated intro plus all the new insights & theories-- it's a lot to catch up on!

Just a quick note about HTOHL:
the exchange in the Crashdown w/Larek-- very interesting that all look to Liz.
Did anyone else notice the comment of "You're welcome to try!" Isabel made to Liz, after the Podster's failed attempt at blasting the crystals?
(I kept thinking to myself "yes, why don't you?")

That's it for now. Sorry not that much to add really.

OK here are my thoughts on HTOHL... I can't believe no one has come up with this theory yet... BUT what if Liz has the recessive gene of the donor (Grandma Claudia theories) and that is why Max was instantly drawn to her? Isabel was drawn to Grant when she first saw him. But I know that the gandarium didn't attack Liz when she was inspecting it. Maybe because she's been changed?

TVPooh - THanks for the heads-up about AOL chats!

Now - I think the idea that Liz might have the recessive gene interesting, but here is why I don't think she did. First, I don't think Grant had a recessive gene, because if he did, then it would have been all over - he would have been infected, and the virus would have been all over. I think Grant was merely a host to allow the "Queen" Granderium to move around. And I think he was infected when digging a year earlier. Probably opened the main hive on Phulman Ranch, and was possessed by the "Queen G." I think she/it was using him to track down someone with the Recessive Gene - Laurie. How it found her is anyones guess?? Now, I also do NOT believe any of the Hybrids have the recessive gene, though all of their human donors apparently had to. Now, I'm not a genetisist (and the show is not know for it's science logic), but if the Hybrids had the recessive gene, then MAX would have been a candidate, and would not have been "rejected" by the Blue Goop that crawled on his hand. It didn't like his taste! Somehow, the mixing process discarded of this gene ultimately. BUT this does raise the question - IS THIS WHY THE INCUBATION PROCESS TOOK SOOOOO LONG FOR THE PODSTERS? Now, to Liz - I think that IF she had a recessive gene, she would know about it, and "Queen G" would have sent Grant after her. Laurie KNEW that she had a recessive gene, so I would guess others with it would also know. Which raises another question - WHY DID LAURIE KNOW? How many of you know you carry a recessive gene of any kind? Many people have no idea unless they have kids who develop some disease that resulted from two recessives coming together. (Hope that makes sense.) Okay - I'm rambling now. But I thought this was a thought provoking question - Is the recessive gene what attracted Max to Liz? And though I think NO - it was worth discussion.

Now back to reading!

Oh - AND I LOVE THAT WEDDING PICTURE! It makes my Dreamer/Mythologist heart beat fast - if only I thought it was true! (I'm such a cynic right now! )

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Here's the thing that's been really bothering me about this plotline. Why did Grant go back to the UFO center to grab Iz? Why would he kidnap her, and how did he know she would be there. I also don't believe that the hybrids or Liz for that matter have the recessive gene...but that part with Iz just doesn't make sense, unless it was just a way to show us what Grant was going through. That he was fighting the posession. And the fact that Laurie's grandpa seemed to be struggling with this for a long time, does indicate that it does take a long time for the crystals to infect the host. Now...that kind of explains why Laurie wasn't infected completely.

It's really kind of confusing. BUT if 1 in 50 million people have this gene, then what does that say about the other's donors? That's not alot of people!

I think one thing we can get for sure from all of this, is that the aliens had been visiting earth previous to sending the podsters down.

quote:Which raises another question - WHY DID LAURIE KNOW? How many of you know you carry a recessive gene of any kind? Many people have no idea unless they have kids who develop some disease that resulted from two recessives coming together. (Hope that makes sense.)

Zero, that makes TOTAL sense to me. When my brother and his wife had children, they had all these gene test done, and it was shown that my brother is the carrier of some kind of recessive gene (I forget which one) which if his wife also had could mean that their children could get some kind of awful disease. His wife didn't have it, and they have two beautiful and healthy kids...but one of my parents were carriers.

Now, he was told that it is highly probably that I am definitely a carrier of that gene as well, and that before I have kids I absolutely have to have tests to show that my partner doesn't have the same gene. Of course, when that time comes, I'll make sure I know exactly what gene it is and all of the particulars about it that I can't seem to remember right now. The point is, I know I have a high probability of carrying this gene.

Also, with Laurie and G-Pa it didn't say what kind of effects that recessive gene would have on Laurie if she wasn't just a carrier. Maybe it's the kind of thing they would test her for -- hence, this is how she knows?

Again, would've been great if they had been a little more thorough with the details..but then again, as obsessed as we are any amount of details wouldn't be enough!

{~}:}

Also grandma Dupree - Ada Jane - her name is awfully similar to AVA. I wonder would she and Grandpa have to have the gene to pass it on to Laurie??? They intentionally didnt show her picture - wonder who she looks like............

Thanks for posting the info on the cut scenes - they do clear up many of the lose ends.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Also, from what we've learned about Laurie's G-pa...it seems that it didn't happen to him quickly, either. I got the impression that this went on for a long time...getting worse and worse as time went on.

quote:And I do think there is an Isabel connection - the crystals seem to have been specifically after her through Grant - plus she was the one who got the flashes of Laurie.

Interesting...but what kind of connection could this be -- and what does that say about Isabelle?

quote:Also grandma Dupree - Ada Jane - her name is awfully similar to AVA. I wonder would she and Grandpa have to have the gene to pass it on to Laurie??? They intentionally didnt show her picture - wonder who she looks like............
Her name is also very similar to IDA. Nicholas' "mother". And ITA with you about Laurie's grandmother. If she wasn't important they wouldn't have bothered talking about her at all -- after all, they never ONCE mentioned Laurie's parents, or why she was the legal guardian of her aunt and uncle.

quote:Thanks for posting the info on the cut scenes - they do clear up many of the lose ends. **StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

DITTO!

{~}:}

One thing--my S theory is still intact cuz Grant Sorenson was just another poor helpless victim and actually sacrificed himself for the good of all LOL!!!

Starbox--I too noticed that Larek looked dead on at Liz when he said YOUR SHIP--oh they love toying with us with this stuff don't they?
And I wonder who Lauries grandma looks like Maria or TESS???????

BB words--BadBlood---BailBond

I haven't see this episode enough to get much more out of it--although I did catch the 2 DIAMOND shapes on the TOBASCO bottles on the table in the crashdown---when is the last time that Liz was speaking that Max never even looked her WAY???????? WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT?????????

Oh yeah, and did any of you guys happened to notice some of the windows in the dupree mansion? Diamonds EVERYWHERE!!!

And one last random observation -- did G'pas drawings of the aliens remind anyone even just a little bit of the gargoyle/troll thing that held the outdoor camera in the front of the estate?

Also, the backward C symbol was seen again on the front of the Dupree estate in last night's eppy ... )(

Sigh. What does it all MEAN???????????

On the 1st HTOHL discussion thread, shadowgrl posted something interesting. If you watch all the scenes where Max and Liz are together, pay attention to the blocking--the actors' positioning. They are always together. They're sitting together at the CD, with Liz between Max & Tess. When they're digging, Liz is generally also in between the other 2 unless she's bopping around on the phone. There is a certain comfort level with each other's physical nearness that we haven't seen for a while--the awkwardness is gone. My take on that is that it's evolved from their chat in the ER in WAF, where it was just so natural for them to hug. So, this is a subtle but important clue to how Liz and Max are feeling about each other.

As for the hugs at the end--did Max seem pretty d*** reserved, or was it just me? I mean, we did get a whole smile (for a nice change!), but then he only kind of gripped Alex's arm, and he stopped smiling, while everyone else was jumping for joy.

As for the Liz/Tess interaction: while it seemed out of place--there was no previous foundation laid for it, really--I'm all for it. If Liz is going to play as large a role in Max's life as we all think she is/should, then she & Tess must be friends. Or, friendly, at the very least. Much like Max had to accept Tess's presence in his life, Liz must also (and Tess has to accept Liz, too).

Metaphysical girl I PMd you

Sorry the AOL chat was such an ordeal, StarBox & I forget who else I'm no longer sorry that I have a different ISP!!!

Don't they look so incredibly happy in that wedding pic? I mean, it's not really going to happen--they're minors, they'd need parental consent for starters--but :sigh: I it! Thanks for posting it, Evid!

And to whomever said that Max and Liz need to take digging lessons, ITA!!! I feel really sorry for Jason, Shiri and Emilie having to actually do all that in that horrible rain S. Calif.'s been getting.
~Tas

Tas - That was me who said they need to take digging lessons! I just thought it was funny, and I'm sure shotting the scene was a pain! When it rains in So. Cal., it POURS!

Met - Regarding Grandpa Dupree - I don't think he was infected with the Granderium. I think he was just the donor of Michael's human DNA which was mixed in the petri dish with the alien DNA to create Michael! I don't think any human had actually been infected - yet - because that would result in the creation of the deadly virus. The fact that the Granderium was loose was accidental, and due to the crash. I don't think it was ever supposed to be released into our ecosystem.

I too wonder about Laurie's parents! What happened to them. This little loose ends drive me nuts, and could easily be taken care of with a side comment, ect.

I tend to disagree with the take on M&L relating to each other. They seemed too cold to each other in this episode! Though they did sit next to each other - I did not get the "caring" vibes that I usually do. It was just like she was just another person sitting at the same table, nothing else.

My take on Iz's kidnapping is that Grant/possessed saw her enter the UFO museum and followed her in, knowing that she was one of the people that rescued Laurie from the grave. BUT - How did Grant know where to find Laurie in Arizona? Okay, I could drive myself batty if I focus on those types of questions.

Liz did play the critical role in determining HOW to kill the Queen! Without her figuring that out, they would not have been able to destroy it.

Now - what do you think Duff is going to do with her new found knowledge? She saw Mikey G use his powers!

Also - I think it was reguru - thanks for bringing those comments over from the other thread. I'm sure there is a lot of overlap between the "analytical" threads, but I like to focus on my favorite "Liz" and those who surround her!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Sorry but this is not the Max I fell for at all last season.

It's fun trying to be Sherlock, isn't it!

Somebody else posted it there.

quote:
Originally posted by StarBox:

First - in the Crashdown scene with Larek - Larek really seems to think Liz was on the ship. He speaks to her as if she is one of the hybrids and is actually looking right at Liz when he says the crystals were "harmless in the controlled enviornment of YOUR ship".

Yeah not only was he looking straight at her when he said "your" ship but I also found it interesting how when they said "well if we find the nest then we find the queen" Larek/Brody said "not necessarily" I at first thought of how he might have also meant how the queen might not have been hidden in the nest on earth for security reasons and to not make it that easy to find her, he might also be talking about THEIR queen. Could be or I might just be getting ...

quote:Originally posted by Zero:
Now, I'm not a genetisist (and the show is not know for it's science logic), but if the Hybrids had the recessive gene, then MAX would have been a candidate, and would not have been "rejected" by the Blue Goop that crawled on his hand.

Actually might make A LOT of sense why it didn't bite Max. The reason they needed the recessive gene was so the glandarium (whatever it was called ) could join the alien DNA and the human one. AFter it does its job they don't need to do it again. The aliens are obviously already infected with it sort to speak and can live with it. Sort of like the monkeys that have AIDS in Africa but still manage to live with it normal lives. SO it wouldn't need to reinfect an body. IN fact when Max and Liz where checking it out, Liz said it doesn't attack forms only humans. Or something along those lines...

quote:

Laurie KNEW that she had a recessive gene, so I would guess others with it would also know. Which raises another question - WHY DID LAURIE KNOW? How many of you know you carry a recessive gene of any kind? Many people have no idea unless they have kids who develop some disease that resulted from two recessives coming together. (Hope that makes sense.)

Well Laurie said that people were who they were and she was like her grandfather (was crazy). Maybe they might have done loads of testing on the grandfather when they thought he was crazy (when he said he had been abducted by aliens). If they needed to pay that much money to say she was crazy I'm assuming they tired out the first logical step which would be testing her to see if she really was, and I'm sure if the grandfather was cloned he must have found out about why he was chosen to be cloned...maybe another group wanted to retry the experiment with Laurie.

Okie just my thoughts.

VolumeOne : Hi. Thats really sad huh. They should do promos advertising their website with crashdown.com clue place while they do the promos. I would have gotten in on the action sooner if I knew how fun it was to watch the show and also do stuff online. Oh well.

You could interpret that several ways.
1. Kill Tess and all the skins die.
2. Kill Tess and all the podsters die.
3. The queen is the most important part of the hive, maybe Tess, but I'd go for my fav, Liz.
4. If Tess is not in the proper environment, she will mutate and destroy the planet.
5. Do not in any circumstance let the queen hybrdize to any human under any circumstance.
6. Having the queen splat against the window in a blue puddle for some reason made me giddy.

Just trying to find some humor in it all.

the "G" spot.

[/B]

i think that it was tess that had made that comment and not isabel.

ROTFLMHO!!! !!!

Also - Roswelldiva - great observations, and you have all convinced me that the recessive gene would probably be known by Laurie. But you all have to admit that there are lots of questions raised be this episode!

Okay - love the "Queen" analogy! I would never have thought about it - though as Grace Kel mentioned, this is something that should have jumped out at us!

PS - Nana J - HI! Have a blast in LA!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

There was also the music to "a taste of honey, tasting much sweeter than wine" when M&M were experiencing how the other half lives.

Can anyone verify volumeones's source as valid?

The thing someone (so rude to forget the name!) said about Brody/Larek saying if the Queen dies, they all die and how it may relate to killing the Antarian Queen and all the Podsters dying ... Maybe that is why Max HAD to save Liz. I know he had a crush on her before he saved her at the Crashdown, but there was an urgency, like he NEEDED to save her. Perhaps Liz is THE Antarian Queen and if she had died that day, they all would have died. Sorry if someone already mentioned it!

Back to lurkdom until I can find an intelligent thing to say!

From he has get (got?)Vilondra es.?
From Iz.This is reason whay he kidnapped Iz.
If he then killed all 4 podsters then nowbody knows Vilondra still alive.

very sry.gram.

Liz is like the scientific advisor to the King. But I think she leads more like a Queen.

From he has get (got?)Vilondra es.?
From Iz.This is reason whay he kidnapped Iz.
If he then killed all 4 podsters then nowbody knows Vilondra still alive.

very sry.gram.Vihmakass, are you suggesting that Grant was going to make a new Vilondra clone by using Laurie + Isabel's essence?

About Max and Liz’s interaction—although I didn’t feel complete love vibes, Max is looking at Liz when they are first sitting there. He also continues to look at her after they are talking with Larek. Max wasn’t all too physical. Maybe Jason Behr thought that last scene was ridiculous, just like me!!

GraceKel—notices double H’s: Handsome Hero. I do agree that Max would have made sure everyone was rounded up instead of walking off, but like I said maybe JB didn’t like the scene.

I also when no one really trusted Tess when she said the Queen never finished. It wasn’t until Liz said that she was right did they believe her!

Liz did figure out how to kill the Gandarian, but Kyle said he figured it out!

There are various campaign’s going on to help support a S3 and Operation Max/Liz. Here are the links to the petitions you can sign to support Roswell(the last one is a Max/Liz petition):
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/RosEvans/
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/RoswellF/

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/mroswell/
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/ros47/
http://www.PetitionOnline.com/crmw7up8/

Nermal—“G” spot

shapeshifter—it kind of bothered me that Alex and Kyle were singing that song. What 17 year old knows all the lyrics to that song? Of course some of the lyrics are appropriate.

Palomino—I rewatched that scene in Ask Not and the “Alien Head” or whatever it is is shown twice! I couldn’t believe I never noticed it!

It's been so long, but.. I could have SWORN that Grant was going to be possessed by Khivar - did anyone else think that? I mean, he had such a fixation with Isabelle and he seemed to wanted the Pod Squad out of the picture.. just seemed logical

Shapeshifter - I DID think "American Pie" was an interesting choice - esp. the line about the "Widowed Bride".

Okay - I rewatched HTOHL and you are right - in teh last scene in the cave Alex says "not only did we know aliens - we were KILLED by them. Then he goes on about how its an amazing ride and then he asks Kyle "Think about it - if you could walk out of this cave and just be a dumb jock - would you want to" and Kyle thinks about it and says "no I wouldnt". I hadnt picked up that little exchange before but DANG - I LIKE KYLE.

Also - notice when they are digging Liz is carrying a chart she made and Max tells her "there is nothing in grid - so-and-so" - so
again - Liz was the leader of the entire operation.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I forgot I had some behind-the-scene stuff to pass on.
*It was not in the script for the kids to dig in the RAIN and it was really miserable to film. Maybe thats why Max ran ahead at the end - they just wanted out of the rain.

* Colin and Nick were singing the weird-Al version of American Pie - producers told them they had to do it the "real" way. :-)
Hey - I'd have gotten a kick out of the star wars version :-)

Zero - I am away all day - I am going to PM you the image gallery if you start a new thread before tonight.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

It's been so long, but.. I could have SWORN that Grant was going to be possessed by Khivar - did anyone else think that? I mean, he had such a fixation with Isabelle and he seemed to wanted the Pod Squad out of the picture.. just seemed logical

right on . Thats why I think Laurie might have known about her DNA as well...maybe someone WAS trying to reproduce the experiment with her. And Vil soo agree with Grant seeming like he was Khivar trying to get Isabel...and more so if they said that the original scene was much longer when she stayed talking to him after he was dead at the end......maybe Isabel felt it inside too (Vilondra something) and in a messed up way sort of that he cared so bad for her even if it was for interest. She might not be used to being loved. I almost got the impression it was more of a Vilondra talking to Khivar thing than Isabel to Grant...

quote:Originally posted by Zero:

and you have all convinced me that the recessive gene would probably be known by Laurie. But you all have to admit that there are lots of questions raised be this episode!

Hey I'm wish you Zero DOn't think I'm just trying to blindly back up everything Jason Katims does cause I love the genius behide the man . And LMAO with Nermal's "G" spot . I think Alexis is totally totally right about Jason thinking it was probably a silly scene . I love the show but I thought that bit was pretty silly myself "YAY a bunch of kids who can't even shovel correctly saved the world form the attack of the killer blue diamond crystals". Then again I've never seen an alien ...who's to say some of them don't look like killer crystals...
BUt I guess I did enjoy how everyone worked together. I stil think Kyle figured out how to kill them though, NOT Liz...

Inka Cajo : I thought it was funny how they actually looked at Liz more like , "what the hell is he talking about" than looking toward her for leadership...and I liked how Tess showed she has some brainpower herself even if Liz did the convincing. WOW cool sig btw .

GraceKel : I actually watch the shows now thinking how you, MetaphysicalGrl, Reggie, Zero, Shapeshifter and Starbox would be looking at it cause I can't tape them here and it makes me enjoy the show so much more to be hunting down for clues . I actually look up to guys soo much cuz I think you're all soo smart . I luv reading what you all have to say in fact, so thank.u for that. I'm glad I wasn't just going looking for stuff that really wasn't there. But it seem to notice how almost the writers slyly give double meaning to clues. I mean I'm not a dreamer to soul I guess I'm a bit realsit but I'm convinced Liz has some importance to the alien mythology to the show after this Larek/Brody incident. Silly as how they scene was . I still enjoy it...

Okies I really got to go study. I think it would be cool if we got all the viewers hooked on the website too . Then'they'd HAVE to watch the show MWA HA HA...I say we do a addicted to crashdown and Roswell campaigne. People love gameshows and stuff where they can interact. It would be like the "Clue" game. All the .COM generationers would get hooked to the show...

This combined with her fear that everyone who 'comes into contact'/involved with the podsters ends up hurt, made it seem like the HTOHL scene was more a self-revelation for Isabel that she is indeed/will be alone (for now at least).

Sorry for my long-winded explanation.

Shapeshifter: ITA about the "widowed bride" line from American Pie. Seems significant somehow. Have to think about it.....

BTW, Alexis, I knew every word to American Pie when I was 15. This song is extremely popular among youngsters, at least where I'm from. Oh, and GraceKel, this is really stretching, but the song is about the plane crash that killed Ritchie Valens, Buddy Holly, and the Big Bopper. Another BB for you in an indirect kind of way (told you it was stretching ).

Also caught the "Bail Bonds 24 Hours" sign: in addition to 2+4=6, also 2x4=8. Also, in Grant's rambling about "things I know" he says 2x2=4. Max says they didn't find anything in grid 23 or 27--there's a 5 and 9 again. Numbers, numbers, what do they mean???

What was up with the green water in the Dupree's pool?!? Strange choice for pool lighting. Laurie also had a diamond w/dot in the middle pattern on her pillowcase. Laurie's wallpaper had some kind of vines on it, and Maria and the aunt were talking by a building covered with grape vines. Also noticed the diamond-paned windows in the dining room.

I thought the interaction with Liz & Larek was great. He treated her with respect, as if he knew of her importance. Add me to the list of people who noticed that he looked right at Liz when he said "your ship". Great observation about the Queen not necessarily being in the nest!!!!

After this ep, I am beginning to think that TPTB read these threads. Kyle says, "What do you suppose alien crystals are going for on EBay?" If you ever go to the funniest screencaps thread, they have a hilarious obsession with EBay that started WAY before HTOHL. Coincidence?? When are they going to use some Liz Myth ideas????

Shapeshifter: ITA about the "widowed bride" line from American Pie. Seems significant somehow. Have to think about it.....

BTW, Alexis, I knew every word to American Pie when I was 15. This song is extremely popular among youngsters, at least where I'm from.

I did forget that Madonna did a cover of that song last year some time, so I guess it is plausible. As to the original, it came out in the '70's. None of these kids were even born yet!

Everyone has great ideas.

I will have to check Destiny later. I am sending my tapes to someone that is in more need of them than I.

Could it be a family thing? They just need to connect with one of the Pod Squad to do it. Or, it could support the 'Liz is an alien' theory

Hope this makes sense.

aldebaran - Thanks for posting the Atlantis pic for me.

Re the scene at the end with Isabel and Grant: Do you remember in TSAP when Isabel says that she needed the girl to be missing? Because she needed to use her powers for good. Like Max and Michael, she's afraid that she's only going to hurt everybody who comes near her. That scene just struck me as Isabel feeling like, once again, who she was had hurt someone else.

Maybe this is insignificant, but someone, I think Tasyfa, mentioned that, with the way that the mom-o-gram worded her message, it seemed like the Antarians sent five people, not four. When Larek shows up at the table, he doesn't question either Tess or Liz's presence. Is it possible that maybe both belonged there? Is it possible that there were five, instead of four?

Could it be a family thing? They just need to connect with one of the Pod Squad to do it. Or, it could support the 'Liz is an alien' theory

Hope this makes sense.

aldebaran - Thanks for posting the Atlantis pic for me.
That is an EXCELLENT observation...I hadn't thought of that. Hmm...very interesting...must contemplate for a while. Thanks!

Also somebody had mentioned earlier about the visuals of vines etc. in this ep. Just to add to it: the glasses that agent Duff & Valenti are drinking from have (what looks to be) etched fern leaves or something on them. I don't know what the vines/leaves etc. symbolize, but there it is

Hey, we're the same age! Don McLeon did a much better version, you are right! I too, like the Eagles. They are nice. I suppose there are some teens that like that, but enough to know all the words? Two teenagers? I doubt it. I guess it doesn't matter in the scheme of things!

First thing I wanted to say was that the whole Max/Liz interaction in HTOHL was great, IMO because it shows that they can work together and that he, along with Isabel and Tess, respect her, her leadership, her intellegence, and intellect.

Also, unlike most Dreamers, I don't think that Liz and Max always need to be sucking face with one another and holding hands, cuddling and all kissy-kissy all the time. I think that the interaction was fine because it's time to get down to business and just the fact that Liz was so close to Max was enough for me.

And I think sometimes it weakens Liz's importance and presence as a strong woman. besides, the romance of it to me is that Liz can speak for Max and nobody says anything about it.

About Larek, two reasons why he felt comfortable with the group.

1) he had already met Tess at the summit, or at least saw her with Max. And then he had already seen, at least we think, seen Isabel and Liz with Max at the UFO Center. So therefore, since they all were they and they all know Max, he probably figured they all work with him.

2)Or it could had been that the interaction with Larek and Liz was important because maybe Larek knows how important Liz is to the group.

Also, one more thing about the Larek/Liz interaction. I think that Larek must have immediately picked up on how important Liz is to the group just by seeing that everybody, including the King looked to Liz for explanation, and it was HER that asked Larek to simplify his answer.

The focal point with Larek was excellent, althoug I will say this. I think that Larak looked at Isabel when he said alien cells then looked to Liz when he said human cells, but he did looked at Liz with the "your ship" thing.

Okay, the word is that "Viva Las Vegas's" ratings might decide renewal due to the impending strike. If this is true we need to get organized, streamlined, and reved up, and FAST!!!!!

In other words, recruit if you can. VLV will be a great episode for new people to see why we all love Roswell!!

Now, if we could just ask him about the alien toy, the orbs, and The Granolyth...

Almost time for a new thread!

Moon Maiden - I was one of those "teens" who memorized "American Pie" when it first came out - and still have it memorized! I still have the vinyl album!! I remember doing cartwheels across our junior high field with friends singing it at the top of our lungs! It's a great song - though an interesting choice for the show considering it is about a plane crash bringing about "the day the music died." It is a song full of double meanings, etc. just like I believe this show is! Umm...!

Moderators - I'll be back in a couple of hours to start the new thread. PLEASE do not close this one down until then. I doubt it will go over 250 too much. THANKS!

See you all then - have to finish a memo on tax and subsidy barriers to a sustainable society! Now if that doesn't make your eyes glaze, nothing will !

PS - Welcome to all the "lurkers" - remember you are ALWAYS welcome!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
And Let's Do What We Can To Save Our Show!!

And I think sometimes it weakens Liz's importance and presence as a strong woman. besides, the romance of it to me is that Liz can speak for Max and nobody says anything about it.YES, Liz is important in and of herself. And I, as another total dreamer, believe that she needs to establish her own sense of confidence without Max before anything 'romantic' should happen between them again. Also viewing Liz first as an individual and as a member of the group would help resolve some of the insanity of late on the boards!

I know everyone's discussing the new episode (HTOHL), but a thought just came to me while I had been rereading earlier posts...I realize I may be way off and it might not make any sense...but it's something that popped into my head. There were 8 pods originally and according to the dupes (I think it was Lonnie) there was a too human group. What if the too human group is actually the four humans (Liz, Alex, Maria, & Kyle)? What if the evil dupes are really working with the skins or were created by the skins. A lot of the info we've received about the 8 pods have been from these dupes who are far from trustworthy (Plus wouldn't Nasedo have mentioned these other look alikes? Wouldn't he have placed them with more care? Why would the dupes a strong connection with Nikolas?) . Again I realize that I am probably way, way off and I know I have no real foundation/evidence to support this random thought. I just thought I'd throw it out there.

Before I go, I have to say that I love the idea of Tess being like a Nasedo (warrior type-perhaps that's why she was raised by Nasedo...make sure she'd know how to protect the real royal 4...maybe explain the fire scene in WO...maybe that's why she was trained to remember certain things so she'd think she was the bride) type alien who was created as the "bride" in order to hide the true Queen/Bride, Liz. Plus the 5 stars, the five healing stones, the 5 worlds, etc are also extremely fascinating.

Ok, thanks for letting me ramble.:-) Hope everyone has a great week till VLV! Can't wait to read more Liz theories! Go Dreamers!

Off to start the NEW THREAD!!

PLEASE TAKE ALL COMMENTS OVER THERE!

Zero
I Shall Believe!