Background

We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, season after season (a little optimism there about a Season 3! ), finding “clues” to Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology and other relevant topics – and there are a lot of them (WAY MORE than I can ever summarize here)! – and then developing theories and potential storylines based on these (often well hidden) clues! Shapeshifter and Qfanny have graciously agreed to set up a single link to the former threads that are available to read (if you have a week or two or three or four). You can find it at the following link http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology (but be patient, they will have thread #30 up in good time ) . Starbox does a wonderful job of posting pictures relevant to our discussions up front for reference! Thanks! Metaphysicalgirl has gathered questions to put to a Set Decorator/Designer/Prop Person from Roswell, since the set decoration, etc. seems so important to our analysis. Qfanny and another connection to the set are going to try and get us some answers! We hope they know of our appreciation! Metaphysicalgirl will continue to gather questions for future attempts, and as soon as we get some responses, we will post them!

The following is a LONG summary (oxymoron?) of some of the clues, thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I have been trying to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled; however, not all clues identified are listed or theories are covered in-depth (remember, I – Zero – am a mere human being with limited human brain capacity, so can only retain so many details).

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings – especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance! We are an up-beat and friendly – though seriously anal retentive – group! So – dive in, and join the fun!!

Liz is Important – The Liz/Max Connection

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions – or is it time zones? - recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz and felt a special connection to her. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all apparently due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that “connection” irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t totally let go of the connection. After events in NY, Max seems willing to give their Friendship another try, and in “A Roswell Christmas Carol,” his turning to Liz for help in his time of need, only confirms that even more. As Max says in the end – once Liz has helped him overcome his trial of conscience – he “believes in her!” In the Hybrid Chronicles it is obvious that Max still cares deeply for and worries about Liz, but is trying to respect her need to be kept out of “it.” But, once again – with the discovery of the Blue Goop – he has to turn to Liz for help. And as usual, Liz is the one to help move them to the solution to the problem. Though it was a team effort, they all looked to Liz for direction and guidance.

There is MORE to the Liz/Max connection than just a romantic relationship, as we have always assumed. She is his trusted advisory, his sound of reason, she is the yin to his yang (or is he the yin to her yang? ), and she helps him connect to his human side, finding that there is strength in his humanity! BUT - Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions regarding that connection have been answered this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Consequence of the Connection – the Change?

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz. We now know from the events in MITC that LIZ WAS CHANGED, and is developing powers, but how come?! How has that change come about? Whether the change in Liz was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Apparently Future Max knew Liz had the potential to “change” since he made the comment that she wasn’t letting it happen, but did he know the true potential of that change and what initiated it or prevented it from occurring? Is Liz’s “change” only a result of Max “bringing her back,” what Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply – or is there something more involved! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squad’s planet (Antar)? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? Could she be the “true bride” – only sent on a different ship to prevent easy discovery, with Tess serving as an unknowing dupe. But if so, and she is part alien, why did she disappear in Wipeout? She did cause the Skin’s shed skin to disintegrate, but that could have other reasons for occurring. Maybe she is purely human, but contains the “true bride’s” essence – but in a different configuration than the Hybrid pod squad?)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” and romanced a predecessor to Liz – but was called back to Antar, leaving his true love behind.
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. But, why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz? Could Tess/Ava be a ruse – as mentioned above - to protect the true queen, Liz, from being discovered before she has time to develop her powers that would protect her and her loved ones?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.) However, Liz is Max’s most trusted advisor, and the one most likely to keep him staying the course!
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies, such as the Key to operating the Granolith – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her? (If you watch “Buffy,” think of the storyline with Dawn as the Key be sought by Glory!)
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Antar? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Granolith and the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story? Ava had heard this story foretold during her previous life on Antar of a special human who would be brought back to life by their king, and would ultimately be the source of salvation for their world as well as her own?
· Could it just be Liz's extremely advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the MANY theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special all his human life – and he never connected with Ava the way one would have expected if she was his mate even though they had (we assume) spent their entire life on Earth – in the NYC sewers - together. I guess we will never know unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones (all 5 of them w/ Liz present) – anything is possible? We don’t know what happened to his body!) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her. (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?” [paraphrasing]) Liz looks directly at Max as he gets off the bus, with a sort of recognition. They obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were friends and lab partners more recently. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that we know are all human (according to Harding in WR). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking already – yet dormant – powers existing within her? Ava’s reaction to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle (Buddha Boy?), and all the kids in the hospital? There seems to be more to initiating the “change” than just the healing! Though Kyle may develop his own powers someday (though maybe changing TV channels is not one of them ), and so could the kids?

Origin of the Connection – Where is Liz from, really?

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins! A few of the common questions raised include:
· Are her parents her “true” birth parents or is Liz adopted like the Evans kids?
· Did Grandma Claudia have a relationship with an alien that passed something on to Liz?
· Does Liz have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race?
· Why does Liz look so much like Sheila Hubble?
· How does all this play into the connection with Max and Liz’s new found “abilities/powers”? (The first of her “powers” appearing to be astral projection.)
· Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur?

We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) There seems to be many clues that point to this possibility – but nothing definite. We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the Antar conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. These races could be of common decent, or there could be many variations. We know from White Room that the alien that was studied had a cerebral cortex similar to ours (humans), that did not have a bone structure like ours – thus, the shock that Max did. Could the similarities that the alien had be due to a common ancestor to humans – one that traveled to Earth many years ago either colonizing Earth or intermingling with the humans here. We don’t know for sure that the alien that was studied was a shapeshifter – we just assume it was, but it could have been another alien, different from the shapeshifters, that was on board the ship (or another ship that crashed.) We also know that the Skins (who are NOT Skins on Antar – only on Earth – so how did Nasedo know what they called themselves?) share powers common to the pod squad whose powers are all human. Why are these powers so similar if they don’t have a common ancestry? Does this mean that the beings that are Skins are from the same race of beings that the essences of the podsters are from? Will humans – like Liz – be able to eventually acquire some of these powers?

Rath sarcastically comments about how hard it is to travel through space to Earth – thus the need to possess humans long-distance – but the podsters obviously got here somehow (and fairly quickly if the comments concerning the warring for 50 years is correct - I will explain this if you don’t get what I mean – just ask) – so travel to and from Earth must be possible and not unreasonable from a time point of view. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ Antar predecessors from long ago? Could Liz and Max have a common ancestor – from long, long ago? (AND I’m not talking incest here – just a common ancestor like all humans do!)

Granolith – How does it fit in?

We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Whitaker and Courtney seemed to think it was a means to their salvation – but why? It is obviously of great importance! Could the Granolith be like a Holy Grail of the V constellation? The “Holy Grail” was meant to be found by a man with a pure heart who will use it to feed the hungry and heal the sick, and with it will bring peace and happiness to the land. So – whose heart is the purest in Roswell? Could it be Liz? The Granolith could be like Excalibur from the King Arthur tales, to be used as an instrument of the righteous, by a good man (or woman) for a good cause. So – who fits that description? Max? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? If it is only a transport system, I doubt they would have had such a concerned reaction – so there must be more to the Granolith than that. Some have speculated that it might be the energy source for a hidden ship – which it makes sense that a ship for return to Antar would be hidden “in plain sight” somewhere in the Roswell! But, I think it is more than a mere power source – though maybe a power source in the Grand sense of the term!

Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the prophesized protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Liz has yet to see the Granolith. Maybe it will react when she enters it. Maybe Liz holds something within her that is the key to the operation of the Granolith! Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time? Apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way before their discovery? So, many questions – still! … ! The speculation continues! Oh, AND Why hasn’t Max asked Liz point blank how she knew about the importance of the Granolith?! Umm…..

Destiny – Liz and Max!

Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess {I’m no longer going to use the snake sign for Tess since attending a Reptile seminar and learning Snakes are our friend! Anyone have a sign for a rat?}, many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his original “destiny” on Antar when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a “human” alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Many posters have wondered “Why?” send the Hybrid pod squad (in duplicate form) to Earth if there wasn’t some benefit to being Human and on Earth. Obviously, distance from their home planet was not one of the benefits. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction. Maybe she had “heard” the prophecy? (I am ignoring the cut scenes that Rooney posted that explained that the Dupe’s shapeshifter had warned that anyone they brought back would be changed, not necessarily for the better, because if it is not aired, it might not be the way the writers/producers have decided to take the show.) Zan’s “searching for someone” that Ava spoke briefly about, also seems to imply that he felt someone special was out there that he was meant to connect with – maybe Liz or Serena – I guess we will never know unless he is “brought back” somehow.

Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is a hot topic in the news right now with the publishing of the Genome Project! And is the pod squad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are (supposedly) “human” according to Harding. (I’m not going to get into it in this Intro – but the fact that the Skin’s powers are similar to the pod squads’ powers – which are advanced human powers – which are supposed to be similar to the powers they had on Antar seems to imply that humans must be capable of the these powers someday and have a common ancestor with the Skins and pod squaders in the distant past – Ummm …! )

Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters and her memory retrieval does not seem very complete! (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess :rat: , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time – though TPTB seem to be softening her character with the Kyle interaction!) Though the Dupes do seem to have memories of their past lives – at least Lonnie appears to - we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. Also, are the visions Max’s previous alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone (i.e., Tess, another shapeshifter) or somewhere (i.e., Granolith, Antar) else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! What else is stored deep within him, and can he get to the point he will be able to freely access and prevent having it MRd out of him? AND what is stored deep within Liz, waiting for the appropriate time to be released??

There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history “destined” to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the small amount of what we know of past podster actions. Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself in MITC - Zan was killed through treachery on Antar, then New Zan was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max (a Zan Hybrid) survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized, and Max has commented many times: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no?? Maybe they make their own destiny with a little help from their Human Friends!

Follow Your Heart

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons. Grandma Claudia told Liz to promise to always follow her heart wherever it leads her (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again (MITC and ARCC). He has even stated that he believes in Liz, and though this is meant more in a friendly way than a romantic way, it is a sign that Max is following his heart back to her! But Liz’s heart seems to be in a state of confusion with the introduction of Sean! But maybe, just maybe, her interactions with Sean will only convince her heart more than ever that Max is her true soulmate!

Symbolism – WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

The symbolism throughout the both seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! (WE love the Set Decorators! ) I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47, and prominently in the background at the Deluca Residence! Are Max and Liz the two diamonds hiding in plain sight? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often and everywhere (e.g., Valenti’s front door, Michael’s wallpaper).

We often look for “V”s, but as SweetJo noted - two “V”s make a diamond <>! Then Metaphyical took that another step – If you look at a diamond, which the Granolith definitely looks like, it is made up of many different V's. (See the picture of a diamond!) She then research octahedrons – which are 2 four-sided pyramides attached at the square bottom. If you connect 5 of these – you get the shape of the alien communicator! She then looked up Fluorite Octahedrons since they kept being mentioned, and it turned out they are used for Balancing!! Fluroite helps one to balance and stabilize the emotional, mental, and physical bodies. Isn’t it amazing what you learn here!!

Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! Liz could be the Trojan Horse in which something of great importance is hidden. There is a prominent picture of a Ship between Max and Maria when they are discussing his love for Liz. The old Scandinavian tale of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his score "The Flying Dutchman," symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love. In desperation the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful. Senta, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears that she will be faithful to the Dutchman unto death. However, in doing so, she betrays her fiancé Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she was trying to save. The Dutchman puts out to sea, but his vessel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned. HOWEVER - the pair are now seen RISING from the now-CALMED waters, TRANSFIGURED and REDEEMED by their SACRIFICE. Salvation is not a impossibly idealistic dream, but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality.

Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. Yvonne “White” was the nurse that disappears in Summer of ’47. And there is another White that shows up on the Silverhandprint site! Max lights a “white” pinecone in ARCC. The ancient Greeks and Assyrians viewed the pinecone as a symbol of masculinity because of its phallic shape, and it represented both fertility and immortality. As the emblem of Artemis, it represented feminine purity. It was also the emblem of the Roman goddess Venus. In Christianity, the pinecone forms the crown of the Tree of Life. Because of its swirling form, it is associated with dynamic generative and cosmic power. Here we see Venus is mentioned and also the Tree of Life (remember the women on the reservation told Liz that was what the symbol was on the necklace) also feminine purity seems to play an important role for Liz at this point. (Thanks Evid!) (And this is just the tip of the iceberg! We go on for pages about this stuff!)

Then there is the Dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. We were in the "year of the dragon." Here are some Dragon “meanings”:
· In the Chinese Horoscope, the Dragon is in the FIFTH ranking order.
· The Dragon's corresponding western sign is ARIES.
· The Dragon’s ruling planet is VENUS.
Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her (unless dragons have been popping up on other characters’ windows?). But since it was the year she discovers that she had “powers,” it is reasonable to think of her as being “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon … as the Dragon. (Thank You Meloudious 1, Starbox and Bluecornmoon, Charmed Kitten for your thoughts on the Dragon!)
Then there is the Arthur C. Clarke book, “Childhood’s End” that is found in “Four Squares” (Thanks reguru!). Following is a summary written by a reader on Amazon – a coincidence? “It is ...in this book the "Overlords" are a mysterious, powerful, but ultimately tragic group of beings that have vastly potent minds, but that cannot undergo the spiritual metamorphosis that would take them into direct communion with the sort of Godhead that directs their (and human) destiny. I liked Clarke's ideas about utopia, which is more or less what the Earth becomes after a few generations under the guidance of the Overlords. He seems to have had a lot of fun playing with ideas about future art forms, for example, among other things. However, this utopian society is doomed, because of an unforeseen, quantum leap in evolution, that turns out to be an evolution of the communal spirit. Clarke has a lot to say here about what connects us to each other, as human beings. Are we all linked with some higher being at the level of spirit, in the manner that islands would be revealed to be all linked, if one were to somehow drain the world's oceans? Or is striving toward a planned, ordered, social utopia, with allowances made for developing all of every individual's gifts to the fullest possible degree, the best way to relate to each other?...” Interesting??
Stars show up often, both the five-pointed and the six-pointed star. It turns out that the six-pointed star, which is often linked to Judaism, has many other meanings. In the Middle Ages, for example, alchemists used it to symbolize the "quintessence," and "quintessence" is another word for "fifth element."
Alchemists also believed that the symbol of two overlapping lines with four arms of equal length had special meaning. We see many variation of this symbol in Roswell – one being the four pods connected in the center. Alchemists believed while each arm stood for an element (earth, water, fire, air), the point at which the lines of they intersected represented the fifth element. From their point of view, the fifth element was basically the intangible thing that makes up a human soul. Remember when Max tells Liz in Destiny: "Knowing you has made me human." In certain branches of science the diagonal cross symbolizes crossbreeding (hybridization) between two species or races. It is sometimes associated with Christ, and in ancient Chinese, it stood for the number 5. (Thanks Czech Please!)

There are lots of other symbols and clues to pick up on! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent and clever for that!

The “Bride” – will the real one please stand up!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? OR could it be referring to Liz who was also standing right there? AND Why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day, and never acknowledged Tess as Max’s mate!) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride with Max in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. What if Tess was sent to deceive the enemy, and the Real Bride was sent in a separate ship – and somehow the Real Bride’s essence ultimately ended up in Liz.

Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts were needed to defeat the enemy. Maybe Tess is a warrior, led to believe she was the bride, when she really wasn’t. (Bad Boy Harding!!) And why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? Since their shapeshifter seemed to teach them so much, wouldn’t they have known the importance of keeping the unit together? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection previously or at the same time? They never mention seeing a Mom’ogram.) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was the Mom’ogram pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is Antar still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?) housing the heads of the allied forces?

The Books – WHY Doesn’t anyone read these things?

Concerns similar to those raised about the Mom’ogram have been raised about the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? And why do the pictures look just like our grown Roswell podsters and not their punkish Dupes? Did the Dupes receive a similar book? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the pod squad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Why does Max have writing on his forehead, but no one else does?

Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there is any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!) SCOOBY GANG - READ THE BOOKS! READ THE FILES! ASK MORE QUESTIONS!

Now we have Grandpa Dupree’s files and notes to add to the reference material they should all be reading and learning from! WHY AREN’T THEY!!??!!

The Catalyst – Liz!

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are re-watched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, connecting with Max to save his life in NY, coming up with the idea that helps Max restore his balance in ARCC, figuring out the Blue Goop is a parasite and determining that Kyle had killed the blue crystals by suffocating them, etc.). Liz is a Leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan. (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max “fall out of love with her.”) The Pod Squad would be no where without Liz!

Vision Quest – How does Liz fit in?

Liz could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we now know is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment. (Who knows who and what to believe on this one??) Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” or complement Max, and bring him into “balance”? Max seems to believe that Liz is his voice of reason, and knows him better than anyone else – even Iz! (We learn this from the JK and JB commentary on ARCC.) Could Liz possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence (combined with her connection with Max) mean that she has the potential to obtain more of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection, at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing (probably!), and how the visions play into her powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “projected” visions from Tess to get Iz’s attention for help). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps! ) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions from Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just “now” being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifters, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? The vision seems similar to that Liz gets in SH when she “sees” the orb being buried. Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Could his blurred vision be the result of testing he was subjected to, and the tic tacs pills that he takes to maintain his “balance”?

Time Travel – “Run, Lola, Run”

Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has it come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run” – which was mentioned in Surprise as the story of Liz’s life? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully due to the premature cementing, and the third being the path we are on now!) Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos? OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has from FM concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY, and that warning prevented him from turning it over to the other aliens - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max in particular!) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug Max – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed! Does he really “know” as Kyle seems to think Max always does? Why isn’t he asking Liz about her the source of her knowledge??

Hero Journey – Liz’s Path

[The following is a summary of what BehrAll pulled together on another thread, and I’m applying it to LIZ! I thank all who may have contributed to this originally, and apologize for not mentioning your name. I believe the bulk of the following was quoted from NyLoN? And that Czech please also contributed to the post.] The Hero's Journey is perhaps the most famous method of storytelling ever. First used by Homer, it was given 'shape' by Joseph Campbell in the 20th century. It has been the basis for many of the most famous and popular works of fiction.

The Hero's Journey is a series of stages that a heroine must go through during her adventure. The stages are flexible in that they are not clearly defined, and Campbell admits that one need not follow all the stages for it to be a true journey. The Hero's Journey (HJ) does not apply to an entire plotline, but rather to a character or several characters and their evolution throughout a series. In our case, we believe that Liz is in the process of the HJ. Following are the HJ stages with references of how it applies to Liz (which I added):
1. Call to Adventure - The heroine must first be forcibly drawn into the adventure, this occurs from a normal occurrence and not something strange or supernatural. Liz’s healing after being shot would be such an event.
2. Threshold Guardian - The heroine must face a minor obstacle that blocks her way to the adventure. Okay – there are more obstacles that Liz has faced than I can mention here, but being a small-town girl who is human may be the initial minor obstacle.
3. Wise and Helpful Guide - The inexperienced heroine must find a guide who will aid her with advice and materials that will be instrumental in her journey. I’m not sure who this could be – Grandma Claudia seems the obvious choice, but River Dog could be on too. But this goes along with my belief that someone is watching over Liz.
4. Into the Labyrinth - The heroine must step out into the unknown and the “den of evil.” Getting involved with Max was stepping into the unknown. Working to defeat the enemy is stepping into the “den of evil.”
5. Heroic Deeds - The heroine must engage in mortal combat, often sacrificing something or someone for the further good to continue her quest. Liz has faced death – think escape from the FBI Special Unit – and sacrificed her own “happy” future with Max in TEOTW for the greater good.
6. Trials - The midway point of the hero's journey is marked by a series of trials, ordeals, tests and obstacles.
7. Into the Belly of the Beast - A popular occurrence is the literal swallowing of the heroine by some great beast. This often marks the entrance to a mythical world where a great transformation occurs. However, in most works the belly of the beast is a metaphor for a stronghold of the enemy. Okay – Liz had to confront the Skins before disappearing, and there are probably other examples out there.
8. Sacrifices - The opening of the mind and heart of the heroine requires her be prepared to (or in some cases does) sacrifice something of great import to her. Okay, think TEOTW – need I say more???
9. Atonement - The hero's journey sometimes includes a "father (or mother?) quest." After many trials and ordeals, the heroine finds her father and becomes "at one" with him. (Note, occasionally this step is eliminated to create 13 stages.) Since we don’t know the circumstances of Liz’s birth, we assume that her dad is her true dad, but ….
10. Return - The heroine then returns to her home with newfound powers, knowledge or ability to benefit her people. Liz does have newfound powers, but … Maybe this is for Season 3??
11. Return of Evil - The heroine is not the only one who is reborn, the forces of evil also reform and come anew. Okay – this could happen numerous times over the course of Roswell!
12. Enchanted Forest - The inhabitants of the enchanted forest are strange creatures who can be both helpful and dangerous. The heroine must know how to get them to aid her on her quest. (Note, this is the second most likely step to be removed to create 13 stages.) Liz has already “befriended” Ava – definitely a “strange creature, and Ava added Liz’s quest to save Max. I would see Liz as instrumental in working with other creatures to seek their assistance.
13. Heart of Darkness - The heroine must enter the center of power for evil in order to destroy it or its' leader. This definitely could happen in future episodes! I can see her ability to see the evil within (if that proves true) coming in useful there.
14. Final Victory and Journey's End - In the end the heroine triumphs over evil and brings forth something new, be it enlightenment, power, understanding or a whole new society. Is there any doubt!!!

Liz’s relationship with Max is key in her journey, but it isn't the only issue she's dealing with (or needs to deal with!). The Hero's Journey can be physical or emotional. An emotional journey, such as usually occurs in a romance, takes the protagonist from her normal state of affairs and challenges her ideas, beliefs and current existence. A proactive protagonist responds to such challenges, undergoing tests of her moral fiber and emotional strength. Frequently she will have to examine all that she has believed to be true before a major confrontation. It is here that she pulls victory from disaster. And it is here that she seeks to return to normalcy. Many writers believe this is the end of the journey. But it isn't.
TEOTW as probably Liz’s "major confrontation" since it was her actions here that pulled "victory from disaster." The future was changed and (we assume) the events FM warned her of do not come to pass. At this point, she knows all she has gone through with (and for) Max has changed her, but believes that part of her life is over now. Liz is hoping that things can be relatively normal again, and has been trying to resume the life she had before Max. But as we all see, she will, of course, be unsuccessful.

The issue at the heart of Liz's HJ, the thing that she must overcome, is the myth of her own insignificance. She believes firmly in her ability to control her own destiny, but often dismisses the notion that she is any more than an obstacle to Max's journey. She's wrong, of course! In TEOTW, we learn that it is their love that damns them and those they care about. This is huge! Liz's romance, her emotional connection, determines the fate of the world. And ultimately, she is the one with the power to save everyone. Unfortunately, she doesn't recognize this power, only the fact that she will be alone now. Her journey isn't over yet.

Liz and Max's respective HJ's have intersected many times already, and we believe that they will eventually merge together. This is why many of us don't worry too much about their couple status. Most of us believe there is much more to Liz than we have seen and that her destiny is more important than she could possibly imagine. We believe things she has accepted at face value her whole life will be turned upside down. Her ultimate sacrifice will be the belief that she is normal. Once she accepts that she is no longer "the smallest of small town girls," she will need to accept entirely new perspectives and responsibilities. At that point, the HJ that has we've seen unfold on Roswell so far will be over and another phase in her life will begin.

Grandma Claudia – the first connection?

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her new and married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Perhaps GC helped them when she was younger, and they entrusted valuable information with her just as with River Dog. Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Norma Bates & Tasyfa contributed these thoughts! Soulmates are usually described as people being very alike in feelings and motivation. They work very well together for common goals. They have a connection of purpose and a similarity in thinking. Their skills complement each others so that together they accomplish more and are stronger/better than if they worked individually toward the same goal. But soulmates aren’t necessarily a permanent connection and they could be with several people. However, Lifebonds take "soulmate" one step further. Lifebonds are usually found in telepathic sci-fi (Kathy Tyers' "Firebird" for example) and fantasy genres. Before they can be lifebonded, they must be soulmates first. They are linked together mentally, emotionally and constantly. Lifebonds in fiction are rare and not taken lightly. They are a permanent one on one connection…till death do they part. The creation of a lifebond is a matter of choice. It doesn’t just happen. Authors sometimes use the theory that if a pair decides to lifebond, they spend some time apart first (so don’t worry Dreamers! ;grin: ), to strengthen and stretch the bond (to change the bond) and to contemplate on their choice. Both must agree and be fully committed to each other. There is no divorce option except death. Once that is done, the 2 open their connections to each other, mind and soul, to the fullest extent and then “cement” their relationship, making the bond permanent.

The drawbacks to life bonding includes:
· If they are separated from each other, they feel incomplete, not whole.
· Long term separation can lead to mental instability or insanity because one balances the other’s strengths and weaknesses emotionally and physically.
· If one of a bonded pair dies, it can cause a deep depression to the point of suicide. The remaining survivor has trouble adapting and balancing themselves.

Some things that lifebonds aren’t:
· They are not mind reading skills. They send strong impressions or emotions. Right now, if Max and Liz were lifebonded, he would know she was lying but not why unless she told him.
· They are still separate people capable of misunderstandings.
· Lifebonds cause a lot of stress and misunderstanding because they are so close emotionally, they forget to communicate verbally.
· Having secrets between a lifebonded pair causes a lot of frustration and pain between them.

Could what FM is talking about in TEOTW be a hint that, not knowing what they were doing, Liz and Max became lifebonded too soon? Liz wasn’t going to change or be able to lifebond to Max without first making a decision that she wanted to go ahead with the relationship. From Destiny until TEOTW she kept herself apart and tried to withdraw, but after seeing Madame Vivian she changed her mind and decided to take a chance…to start changing. Perhaps FM found out that Liz would develop her own powers if they hadn't become lifebonded and solidified the links so early. FM coming back and keeping her separated allowed the connections to grow stronger. Liz needed time to stretch the links, to change both physically and mentally, and taking Isabel's hand in MITC was only the first step of finding out whom she really is and what she is capable of doing.

Sheila Hubble – Eerie resemblance to Liz! – What’s the connection?

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the pod squad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with while in Florida?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. So, there is a connection to Liz. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Do you think the writers will introduce a character from Florida named Chad? Ummmmm? And what happened to Hal?? Don’t you think he would want to stay connected to the podsters now that he knows they exist?

Venus – Liz’s connection to the stars!

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Some new findings connecting to Venus include - Liz considers the smell of sulfur as “being home.” Venus has sulfur as a predominant chemical in its atmosphere. “The first time I walked into a chemistry lab and smelled that smell – the sulfur – I felt like I was home.” (Monsters) Is this part of an alien essence or past? (Thanks StarBox!) Also, Venus is hot and dry. Its atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas. Its upper atmosphere contains sulphuric acid. Venus rotates very slowly (once every 243 earth days) in the direction opposite to most of the other planets and opposite to the motion of all of the planets around the sun. Its solar day is 116 days long. Venus goes around the sun once every 225 days. StarBox, Bluecornmoon and Zara conducted the following analysis - 225 (245?) days after Feb. 20 (SH) was October 25, the day of the Gomez' concert (TEOTW). The next "mating" cycle for Max and Liz will be June 23rd, 2001! As for Liz and Max's "need" for each other - It's not time yet!

Numbers – It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! TEOTW occurs in 2014! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates? Next time you watch ARCC, notice the house addresses for Brody and the Ghost’s family, and it’s the 23rd Annual celebration. They all add up to 5! On the Silverhandprint, notice the crime report for Liz’s shooting. The Crashdowns address and the time of the shooting all include 2, 3 and 4s! Someone is sending us a message – maybe it is that we are all nutty!

Cave Map Symbols – All signs lead to Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together? See the discussion of lines and stars above!

The symbol on the necklace that leads to the cave looks like a yin/yang symbol. Audrey11 contributed the following - yin and yang have some references to things that have been discussed. This is a brief list of what they represent, mostly in reference to previous discussions.
Yin - conceived of as earth, female, present in even numbers, valleys and streams, represented by the tiger, the color orange and a broken line.
Yang - conceived of as heaven, male, present in odd numbers, mountains, represented by the dragon, the color azure and an unbroken line.
The concept of yin-yang in Chinese thought is associated with 5 elements: metal, wood, water, fire and earth, this idea lends substance to the characteristically Chinese belief in a cyclical theory of becoming and dissolution and an interdependence between the world of nature and human events.

Skins – What lies below the surface?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the pod squad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seemed to be confined to their husks, but they could be from the same race as the pod squad’s alien predecessors. Many of us think that the pod squad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without being noticed? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? How did the Skins – Nicko - find the Dupes? And could some of these earlier alien visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race or groups of aliens on Earth ? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Shapeshifters – Are there more than one?

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same. Maybe Tic Tac was the Dupes’ shapeshifter who came back to Roswell.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Recently with the discovery of Liz’s change, many have wondered why Harding didn’t know about the change and mention it. Especially after reading the cut scenes from MITC. If Ava knew, Harding should have known and mentioned it. Of course, there are the long lingering questions like: Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions, and his apparent failure to divulge information about Liz and the podsters’ origins. Was his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee”? And what did he do for all those years before Tess hatched? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Again, why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? Why did Harding have such a large collection of antiques, which he was so sensitive about? Had he been around when they were original manufactured – years ago? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Odds and Ends

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection. And who could miss Max grabbing Liz’s hand at mid-night mass and telling Liz, “I believe in you!” in ARCC!

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Dates

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across – PM me if you have one. I have added dates from the Silverhandprint site, but they don’t always jive with the episodes, so take them with a grain of salt.

1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1935 – Picture of Michael’s DNA donor? (Hybrid Chronicle’s promo)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
7/7/1947 – Privates Timothy Mann and Frank DiMuzio find Privates Bill Fifer and Jim McCarthy dead near crash site.
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
1949 – Special Agent Lewis recruited to run FBI Special Unit (Silverhandprint)
1950 – Agent Lewis mentions “butchers at Eagle Rock” to wife [think Eagle Rock Military Base] (Silverhandprint)
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in Delta, CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent DelBianco killed in Union City, TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior (UFO Convention)
9/13/1973 – Kathleen Ann Topolsky, future FBI agent, born in Hartford, Connecticut
1975 – Allister Topolsky born
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Agent McMahon, head of FBI Special Unit, killed (Silverhandprint)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
1983 – Michael’s birthday?
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
3 or 5/7/1983 – Tess’s birthday (I see a 5, others see 3?)(Tess, Lies and Videotapes)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? – Z]
1985 – Pohlman Ranch Excavation (Silverhandprint)
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1990 – Maria’s Dad leaves (Sexual Healing)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
Fall 1993 – Topolsky graduates from U. of Hartford, w/ BA in Psychology
11/1993 – Topolsky’s brother Allister dies of Hodgkin’s Disease
1993 or 1994 – Laurie Dupree’s Grandfather (Michael’s DNA Donor) dies
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1997 – Topolsky graduates from U. of Michigan with PhD in Psychology
11/15/1997 – Date on Laurie Dupree’s Psychiatric Hospital Bag (We Are Family)
1999 - Agent Daniel Sommers, head of FBI Special Unit, killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17/1999 – At 3:52 pm Liz Parker is shot, and Max Evans saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!! (Sheriff’s Report – Silverhandprint)
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
9/27/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: arrival in Roswell (Silverhandprint)
9/28/1999 – Topolsky has first day at West Roswell High (Silverhandprint)
9/30/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: confiscated Sheriff’s files & Michael Guerin (Silverhandprint)
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds (Silverhandprint)
10/14/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Suzanne Duff – obviously close friends (Silverhandprint)
10/14/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: Future Week [think Profiles] (Silverhandprint)
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/27/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: Alex [Even Topolsky notices the “intense” connection between Max and Liz] (Silverhandprint)
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
10/28/1999 – Liz and Max search Kyle’s for the Journal, & Topolsky recognizes Michael’s artwork as Atherton’s geodesic dome (Silverhandprint)
11/4/1999 – 285 South Begins (Profiles - Silverhandprint)
11/5/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s (Profiles - Silverhandprint)
11/6/1999 – Topolsky orders a Casio Magic Wand (Silverhandprint)
11/9/1999 – Topolsky following pod squad to Atherton’s [Date not consistent with Profiles] (Silverhandprint)
11/11/1999 – Topolsky describes the incident at Atherton’s (Silverhandprint)
11/18/1999 – Max in car accident [think Blood Brothers] (Silverhandprint)
11/19/1999 – Topolsky’s final report (Silverhandprint)
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex wind up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max & Liz share their first kiss (Heatwave)
1/2000 – Frazier Woods SIghting
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/8/2000 – FBI Agent Daniel Pierce checks out item 87 kl stone form Special Unit vault (Silverhandprint)
4/8/2000 – Kathleen Topolsky checks out Orb Communicator from FBI Evidence Vault (Silverhandprint)
4/14/2000 – Fire brakes out at Bethesda Psychiatric Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, and Topolsky is listed as among the six patients killed (Silverhandprint)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/5/2000 – Rare alignment of Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Earth’s Moon and the Sun (4everyoung)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
7/2000 – Grant steals rifle from hunter in New Castle, Wyoming (Disturbing Behavior)
8/2000 – Grant steals oxygen tanks from hospice in Fort Collins, CO (Disturbing Behavior)
9/2000 – Grant steals plastic head box from industrial supply in Las Cruses, NM (DB)
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed Harding, the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/6/2001 – Special Agent Ragsdale writes Congressman White re: FBI Special Unit (Silverhandprint)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday (Surprise)
12/23/2000 – Max heals kids in Hospital (ARCC)
12/24/2000 – Max attends Midnight Services, expressing his Belief in Liz (ARCC)
1/2001 – The Hybrid Chronicles Begin!
2014 – Minutes before the destruction of Earth, Future Liz Convinces Future Max to go back in time and convince Liz to deceive Max into “falling out of love with her” – thus, changing the future (TEOTW)

In Summary

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? The Ava drawings also seem to tie Liz in just by including her, but …? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. I’m also hoping the clues that we have found are up-lifting to the Dreamers out there that just lurk! Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome.

OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS[b/] (even asides about spoilers are not allowed), but anything “aired” is subject to discussion, including coming attractions and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Zero
I Shall (and always will) Believe!!

Importance of the repeated "V" pattern and hand-holding


Here is a great drawing of a diamond (the shape of the granolith) that Metaphysical posted - notice the repeated "V"'s within the shape?

The granolith itself (is Liz it's "keeper"???)

Liz as Venus:

Liz and Max as twin souls - notice how they come together to form the
"swirl" on the orb activated during Sexual Healing. Notice the "Emergency" sign behind them - when they come to gether it reads "MERGE".
The animation is from the alternate ending to Leaving Normal and is complimets of RedHawk (THANKS!!) Also posted is a screencap of the aired ending of Leaving Normal - here you can see a variation of the orb swirl as
well.

Liz as the keeper of/key to the granolith:
Picture of the granolith chamber in the crashdown:

Liz with the word "CHANGE" behind her - from Leaving Normal. I think the
theme of Liz's "emergence" is central to Roswell - Think of Future Max's
line that Liz needed to let herself change.

Liz's Hero Journey is closely linked to images of Liz looking into MIRRORS. The mirror seems to symbolize the transformation Liz is undergoing. Another symbol linked to Liz is that of BUTTERFLIES - an obvious symbol of metamorphasis and change.

Sheila Hubble:

Liz as the Virgin Mary/key to Salvation (::waving to Evid:

The dragon on Liz's window:

Liz as the Trojan Horse (she was avoiding Maria in the Pilot and ate lunch
with Pam TROY). Horses have shown up alot in pictures, etc but here is the
horse that ran in front of Max's jeep in Blood Brothers:

Liz as the Tree of Life and EAGLE imagery - see the tree mural on the wall -
and also the EAGLE figure on the table.

The "destiny" book with the name "LIZ" backwards next to what looks like the
granolith sideways:

Liz and the cave "map" - note the granolith-like symbols near her neck and
towards the top.

Liz and the Childhoods End book:

Liz is also often shown with SUNFLOWERS or SUNS - a symbol that links her to Max - who is closely associated with the SUN. Here she is with her latest sunflowers - little sunflower lights. Also notice the "V" pattern on her blanket.

Okay Zero - here you go - the cross and the sugar cubes:

Images thanks to crashdown, shapeshifter, redhawk and a HUGE thanks to
www.theddd.com who are kind enough to
supply custom screencaps for our gallery.
THANKS!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Wait - Now they work!! Okay - someone is messing with me!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Oh, on the pictures. It the server is geocities they won't show up now. Geocities is now not allowing you to post things from their sites. So StarBox may have to change servers.

Just thought I'd drop that off. A lot of the fan art threads are having the same problem.

Now, something I've never done before, I'm going to repost my last post from the last thread because it was the last post. I think I just invented a Roswellian tongue twister. Anyway, here it is:

About the American Pie song, I think the words have even more significance becauseit's not a "current" song, and so was likely chosen for the words--like Rhinestone Cowboy in MTD. And I thought they both gave a little emphasis and clarity to the words "widowed bride." Although it could have Antarian implications, right now I'm thinking that "widow" doesn't necessarily mean that the husband is dead--for example, a "football widow" is a wife whose husband watches football instead of Roswell. So, perhaps Kyle wasn't sure if he wanted 'to cry' when he heard about Max's 'widowed bride,' that is, Tess, who is de facto 'widowed' because Max is obsessed with Liz. Instead, Kyle thinks that might work out to his own advantage. And Alex, well, maybe that's a foreshadowing of Grant's death?

BTW, Zero, you are awesome!

Shapeshifter-will have to think about that one for awhile about the Widowed Bride.

Hey did anyone notice in the promos the cards on the table were a 7 and 8 and a QUEEN OF HEARTS---couldn't help but think of that Radio Announcer in Blind Date saying and here is our new Queen of Hearts LIZ PARKER!!!!

About American Pie - I was a teenager in the mid-80's and count me among those who had the song memorized - it does really have universal teenage appeal.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Shiri Temple—that is an interesting theory about the “too human” group being the 4 people we see as 100% human (except for Liz and Kyle being changed).

I made up a list of “Because’s” on the dreamer’s thread, so I thought I could make one for Liz just for fun. I started with my original list as a base, took out items not relevant to Liz directly and then added some off the top of my head. Let me know what you think and feel free to let me know of any additions!

Reasons Why is Important to the Alien Mythology:

1) Because Max’s life is in Liz’s hands now.
2) Because Liz is different.
3) Because Max put a force on Liz.
4) Because Liz’s life changed in an instant.
5) Because Max risked everything because “It was you.”
6) Because Liz is on this path to Valendictorian.
7) Because Liz came up with a way to divert Valenti (Pilot)
8) Because it wasn’t safe, but Liz didn’t care.
9) Because Liz will never look at the stars in the sky the same way again.
10) Because Liz was the first to suspect Topolsky.
11) Because secrets make you feel like you DO belong.
12) Because Liz wasn’t concerned about her future.
13) Because Liz always has to have a plan.
14) Because life will never go back to normal.
15) Because Grandma Claudia is the basis of her existence.
16) Because Liz left normal and once she did she could never go back.
17) Because Liz always follows her heart where ever it takes her.
18) Because Liz has known that they aren’t all the same for a really long time.
19) Because Max’s life didn’t even start until he told Liz the truth that day.
20) Because first of all, nothing about Liz is stupid
21) Because asked what they were waiting for (in 285 South).
22) Because Liz didn’t come to ask for Max’s permission (RD).
23) Because Liz knew that you can tell the difference between female and male blood.
24) Because Liz thought of Alex to donate his blood.
25) Because Liz and Alex uncovered Topolski as FBI.
26) Because Liz knew the right time to tell Alex the truth.
27) Because Max thinks that Liz looks like Venus in the morning sky.
28) Because they have that whole “look into my eyes soul mate thing.”
29) Because it wasn’t until Liz entered the healing circle that Michael got better.
30) Because Liz could never let Max down.
31) Because Liz didn’t mean to have doubts.
32) Because Max has a really good lab partner: she’s really good in science.
33) Because Liz wasn’t afraid to tell Max to take a psych class.
34) Because Liz figured out why Max and Isabel went camping.
35) Because Max made Liz a part of this.
36) Because Liz has made up her mind.
37) Because Liz knew how important finding the symbol in ITW before anyone else was.
38) Because it was Liz’s idea to have the search party find her and Maria.
39) Because Liz isn’t “into clowns.”
40) Because they saw into each other’s souls.
41) Because Liz protects Max, especially when he’s drunk.
42) Because Liz needs grief relief.
43) Because Liz didn’t feel normal.
44) Because Liz saw stars when she kissed Max
45) Because Liz got visions.
46) Because there was a good reason why Max missed some of his classes.
47) Because Liz also needs to find out where all of this leads
48) Because Liz found the orb.
49) Because Liz knew when to trust Topolski.
50) Because Topolski knew she was smart.
51) Because Max looks at Liz and knows that she’s the one he’s supposed to be with. He’s always known it.
52) Because Liz is “The One.” The only one.
53) Because everything she saw with her eyes told her he was cheating on her, but everything she felt in her heart told her he wasn’t.
54) Because she went on faith—a lot of it.
55) Because Max doesn’t feel unsettled when he kisses Liz.
56) Because you are who you choose to be, just like you are with who you choose to be with.
57) Because Liz went in and planted the camera.
58) Because Liz discovered Ed and Tess Harding were after Max.
59) Because Liz figured out it was Venus that completed the V constellation.
60) Because Liz knew that Maxedo wasn’t Max.
61) Because “He changed me.”
62) Because Liz wouldn’t leave without Max.
63) Because Liz went to Valenti to save Max.
64) Because saving Liz that day was the day his life began.
65) Because “It was you, Liz, the thought of you,” that kept Max alive.
66) Because knowing Liz has made Max human.
67) Because whether it be now or 50 years from now, his destiny is the same…it’s Liz.
68) Because Edsedo was healed when Liz was present.
69) Because Liz was strong enough to walk away.
70) Because Liz tried to stay away from Max because she knows how easy it is to fall in love with him.
71) Because Liz knew about the sub-particle lab.
72) Because Liz isn’t a dork, she just enjoys science.
73) Because Max is coming for Liz.
74) Because Liz figured out that CW was taping her phone conversations.
75) Because Liz doesn’t have any regrets.
76) Because he chooses her.
77) Because it’s Liz he trusts, Liz he has faith in.
78) Because Liz didn’t do it for Tess. She did it for Max.
79) Because he felt it and he knew she did too.
80) Because Liz was willing to give up Max for the sake of his race!
81) Because Liz was just making him love her more.
82) Because Liz gives up Max (the ultimate sacrifice) to save everyone (including Max!).
83) Because it took a lot for Max to turn away from Liz—but he still hasn’t really
84) Because Max knew Liz wasn’t scared—just hiding something.
85) Because Liz helped the Pod Squad get into the Crawford’s house.
86) Because Liz discovered CW’s body was really a husk.
87) Because Liz deducted that if the force field in WO was turned on it could be turned off.
88) Because even though he was hurt, Max listened to what Liz said about the Granolith.
89) Because Isabel knows Max and that if there’s one voice he would hear no matter where he is or what he’s doing, it’s Liz’s.
90) Because Liz could contact Max across 3,000 miles.
91) Because Liz saved Max.
92) Because when Max needed a friend, he went to Liz.
93) Because Liz always has a solution on how to restore the balance.
94) Because Liz senses when Max is there.
95) Because Liz told Max he can’t keep healing people.
96) Because Max believes in Liz.
97) Because Max needs Liz.
98) Because it’s all right to live your DREAMS!
99) Because Liz doesn’t want Max to be cheated.
100) Because Liz wants Max to come with her.
101) Because Liz will ALWAYS be a part of the group.
102) Because Max needs to ask Liz, the science whiz.
103) Because Liz automatically identifies the Blue Goo as a Gandarian virus.
104) Because Liz delegates the job of finding out about Frasier Woods to the best person for the job—Isabel.
105) Because Liz discovers the water table is below Puhlman Ranch.
106) Because Liz gives them the idea to “phone home.”
107) Because Larek knows Liz is important.
108) Because everyone always looks to Liz for help in science.
109) Because Liz realizes that the Gandarian Crystals die without oxygen.
110) Because Liz is the only one Max could see as his bride (from Promo).
111) Because Liz follows her heart.
112) Because it’s Liz.

Did anyone else notice that Sean was absent from HTOHL? That has to be a good thing, right? (As a side note, the only reason why I realized this was because I heard "Just a Gigilo" on the radio the other day, and it reminded me of him! )

Have a great day all!
Argo

I have this feeling that Liz is Khivar's sister. That would probably explain what Harding said about how Liz didn't belong here. Maybe he knows that Liz is the sister of the enemy. And maybe that's why Isabel didn't trust her at first. But then I'm having a hard time understanding Isabel.

I've been thinking about the widowed bride--two possibilities:

1. Widowed bride on Antar, Ava. Maybe Zan was killed before her. This is, of course, if you want to believe Tess is the bride.

2. Widowed bride on Earth of Max's human donor. Could this be Liz's connection to Max? Michael seemed to exhibit characteristics of Grandpa Dupree. Maybe some of Grandpa's soul is in Michael as well. I was really hoping he would get some kind of flash when he touched Ada Jane's dress, but oh well. If the soul of Max's donor is present in him, could it be possible for him to recognize the soul of his donor's bride in Liz??? Is Liz somehow connected to Max's human donor???

Edited because I forgot to say GREAT LIST, ALEXIS!!!! Hey, did you notice we have a Roswell-significant age? 2+6=8!!!!! Lordy, how obsessed am I?!?!?!

Alexis - Excellent List!! I'm so impressed!

Up-Date on our Questions: The list of questions was given to the on-site set director for the episode currently being filmed. He was tickled that we were asking questions, and said that he has visited our thread and is very interested by some of our findings. (They are lurking out there!! ) He also wanted us to know that they usually don't have a lot of time to really plan the set for a TV show. They generally, only have a few weeks of prep-time. Once chosen, they have to use those designs pretty much throughout the duration of the show. Also a lot of the posters and stuff they use are donations they get from companies. They will use the posters that they think are cool and kind of work with the character. However, Brenden specifically asked for Metallic since he's a really big fan of them. Finally, the on-site set director said that he would give the questions to the head set director and have her answer them as well. He said that she'd get a kick out of it. Of course, now we have to be PATIENT – remember Patience is a virtue!! (THANKS! to our contact who provided me this information!! They know who they are!! )

See you all later!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

2. Widowed bride on Earth of Max's human donor. Could this be Liz's connection to Max? Michael seemed to exhibit characteristics of Grandpa Dupree. Maybe some of Grandpa's soul is in Michael as well. I was really hoping he would get some kind of flash when he touched Ada Jane's dress, but oh well. If the soul of Max's donor is present in him, could it be possible for him to recognize the soul of his donor's bride in Liz??? Is Liz somehow connected to Max's human donor???

Thanks! As always - this is a labor of love! But I wanted to mention that I like this thought process, and forgot how Mikey G was exhibiting some of Grandpa Dupree's mannerisms. Ummmm.....!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

[b]Up-Date on our Questions: The list of questions was given to the on-site set director for the episode currently being filmed. He was tickled that we were asking questions, and said that he has visited our thread and is very interested by some of our findings. (They are lurking out there!! ) He also wanted us to know that they usually don't have a lot of time to really plan the set for a TV show. They generally, only have a few weeks of prep-time. Once chosen, they have to use those designs pretty much throughout the duration of the show. Also a lot of the posters and stuff they use are donations they get from companies. They will use the posters that they think are cool and kind of work with the character. However, Brenden specifically asked for Metallic since he's a really big fan of them. Finally, the on-site set director said that he would give the questions to the head set director and have her answer them as well. He said that she'd get a kick out of it. Of course, now we have to be PATIENT – remember Patience is a virtue!! (THANKS! to our contact who provided me this information!! They know who they are!! )

See you all later!
Zero
I Shall Believe! [/B]

Wow! How cool is that!!! Thanks to whoever handed our questions in. Even if a lot of what we have noticed has been coincidental, we were still right on in assuming that they would be very interested in what we've found! I can't wait to hear what they have to say!!

And to know that they have visited our thread... that's pretty cool in and of itself.

I'm also glad to know that they realize we appreciate their work. Often times people behind the scenes don't get to hear positive feedback from the fans of the show...so that is really great also.

Smiles,
{~}:}

BTW, my sibling Palomino insists that when P GraceKel'ed the preview for HOTHL, P saw Amy DeLuca lying down... and someone pulling a sheet over her head. Dead? But it didn't happen in HOTHL. Anyone else notice this, and have an explanation?

Edited because I forgot to say GREAT LIST, ALEXIS!!!! Hey, did you notice we have a Roswell-significant age? 2+6=8!!!!! Lordy, how obsessed am I?!?!?!

About as obsessed as I am, poor thing!

Children who never feel safe(because of their circumstances whether that be an abusive home (like Michael) or they are really hybridized aliens ) can cause them to have a hard time trusting others and can end up being unstable adults.

If you will notice Liz, Max, Alex and Isabel are more stable characters (they were raised in 2 parent homes) whereas Tess, Kyle, Maria and Michael were not. TKM&M have many more issues regarding trust and others abilities. They also have more anger.

Hope that answers your question.

Actually, WHY is a really good question. The Momogram clearly expresses her love for her children, so the Antarians must understand the importance of parents. Yet the only reason Max & Isabel even ended up in a good home was basically pure chance (or fate ). Why didn't they make provisions for the podsters ahead of time? Or did they, and M/M/I hatched early so the plans weren't ready? But if that was the case, then Tess, who hatched later, was actually on time, and should have been placed with a family instead of being dragged all over the world by Nasedo. Does that make sense to anyone, b/c I'm confusing myself here

I had a random thought today, about the Pilot. When Iz & Michael find out that Max told Liz the truth, the 3 of them get into the Jeep and drive off. The blocking (body positioning) is interesting, viewed in hindsight.
Driver=Max=King
Passenger seat=Michael=2nd in command
Back seat=Isabel=Princess (in a patriarchal society)
I have no idea what that might mean, or if it's just a marker towards their true roles, but I found it interesting.

Re: Screencaps from the DDD The keeper of the DDD, provence, has said that by Tuesday at the latest all of her screencaps will be moved to a new server; the HTOHL and VLV promo caps have already been moved. Please be patient if it does take a little longer as she's sick right now
~Tas

Tas - you raise a very interesting question, which is part of a larger question I've had for a long time. Basically concerning why - if the Antarian society was so advanced - they did not make better plans to protect such an important group. You would think - if the ship crashed - then they would have somehow sent others (like the Skins, but good beings) to help find and protect the royal four, not just leave who came with the ship - the shapeshifters, I presume. I'm still hoping that Tic Tac shows up as a good being watching over the podsters and Liz.

Rozburtie - Welcome! I would love to see the ad! Is it going to be posted somewhere?? I'm a Mythologist who considers herself a Dreamer, but I guess I'm also an Applersaucer since Liz is my favorite character! I think that is awesome that you all pulled together to tell her "Thanks!" She has got to appreciate it. Isn't the LA get-together there now, too? I wonder if she will be attending any of their events. Okay - that was totally OT - but as your 'fearless leader' I'm entitled!

BTW - I want to welcome all newbies and lurkers! Please do not be put off if someone doesn't respond to you on the first time/post (or even the second) - we are a friendly group, and we welcome all, and want to hear about what you think and observe!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Just coming out of lurkdome to thank you all for your positivity! These boards have been a little scary lately and it is always such a treat to come here and find some positive intelligent discussion!!

Now I will just go back to reading your wonderful ideas and keep praying for "The Liz Chronicles" to begin soon!!

sry.gram.

sry.gram.
Max and Isabel, (almost since the time they hatched) have had 2 parents and each other. Michael probably had 2 parents at first. I doubt a drunken, single father would have been allowed to have a foster child. Michael has had Max and Isabel for many years. Tess may remember enough to feel that she has more than her "father", and he would have told her she did. (She thought she had Max.)

Alexis great list about LIZ
Rozburtie cant wait for the PIC LIZ PARKER my fave character.

If podsters have DNA(mix) from humans and aliens - have they mixed unconscious too?
sry.g.

If podsters have DNA(mix) from humans and aliens - have they mixed unconscious too?
sry.g.

Sorry for the delayed reaction yall.

Now that you mention it - I remember that and another flash where there was a woman falling to the floor. I assumed that they were infected with Blue Goop (AKA - Granderium) and died when the Queen was killed! But now that you mentioned it - neither of those scenes were in the episode. Grace Kel - you explained one, but what about the other. Was there an explanation about that one???

Zero
I Shall Believe!

And thanks Drcy.

I'm off to Las Vegas tomorrow morning to do some reconnaissance for "Viva Las Vegas"! Actually, a close friend is flying me there for her daughter's birthday - nice friend huh?! I'm not a gambler, but the weekend is full of parties and events, so it should be fun! I will be looking around to see how accurately Las Vegas is protrayed on Monday night!

So - Don't think of anything too deep while I'm gone! Actually, I hope you all have a wonderful weekend! I don't get back until very late Sunday, and have meetings all days Monday - so if I'm not back until after VLV, have a fun time chatting!

I can hardly wait to find out what the Wedding flash is - or whose it is. I know it has to be a dream - but then at this point I will take whatever I can get!

Till then!
Zero
I Shall (ALWAYS) Believe!

Edited because I forgot to say GREAT LIST, ALEXIS!!!! Hey, did you notice we have a Roswell-significant age? 2+6=8!!!!! Lordy, how obsessed am I?!?!?!

I really wanted to see what Ada Jane looked like too. I wanted Laurie to pull out a picture of her and say and this is Grandma! If Max's attraction to Liz really does have something to do with her being related to a love of his human donor or something like that, does that mean that all the podsters, if they meet the *right* person can potentially have what Max and Liz have? Which would mean that Michael and Maria aren't "meant to be" in any kind of way, because he would have this soulmate connection with someone else, unless she is some how related to Ada Jane. Am I making sense? This whole thing could really get confusing. That's really all I wanted to ask/say.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I think the fact that TPTB changed the episodes gives my little Dreamer heart hope!

Maybe they will read our posts and add more Liz scenes. Let's just pray that it happens!

ATTENTION - Please head over to Shiri Appleby's board and check out the ad the Applesaucer's placed in Variety about her. It's showing how much the fans really appreciate her acting and how she truly is the magic of Roswell. The thread name is Variety Check it Out!!!

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

that's a thought. the donor was probably so in love w/ his wife,in this lifetime. when young max sees young liz, the instant recognition is there as well as the love.

It seems as if they did a lot of line-swapping.

I just noticed that Laurie says “Indian River pipe tobacco.” There is another Indian reference.

The original script also gives more credit to Liz for figuring out that oxygen is what kills the crystals not heat.

There are also lines that would fill in some information (like how does Valenti know where Laurie lives).

Seems as if the writer’s have more sci-fi knowledge (cans exploding, etc) but the production crew most likely couldn’t produce the effect (or there was no budget).

For those of you that have not gone over to the Shiri Appleby site, I brought this over to share. The thread is: Shiri Promotion in Variety Ad. I hope TPTB realize how much this actress is loved and Shiri as well.

Evid

I just thought of something. What if plans were made prior to their arrival in 1947, but they didn't take into account the long period of time until the pods hatched? Maybe the antarians did not realize how long it would take for the pods to "mature" here on earth. Possibly, due to the atmoshphere/climate here on earth, it took much longer for the pods to hatch than it would have on Antar. (It is wierd that they would plan for the pods to take 50 years.) By the congresswoman's journal, she did not seem to know that it would take 50 years for the pods to hatch.

And if this was the case, that they simply did not realize how long it would take for the pods to hatch, any plans that they made in 1947 may not have been possible in 1989. (For instance, if they had chosen humans to be the caretakers, those humans may have died in that 50 years.)

I really want to know what the original plan was. If there was no crash, what was supposed to happen? Why were they flying, and where to? Since the pods were done (we saw them), all they really needed to do was hatch them.

I don't think the Queen need to look for someone with the "defect." She just needed a vehicle to find this "flawed" person. That is why she picked Grant. He was digging (the previous summer) in Frazier woods and he found the crystals.

Grant was not involved in kidnapping Tess at all. Valenti and Max just assumed. I think the writer's wanted to get rid of Grant so they added him in that story line.

But I agree, it is a mess.

Good observation. I noticed from the beginning, they've instinctively looked to Max for direction. He was already kind of leading, before they discovered he was actually the leader.

I am probably wrong here, but didn't Grant say that he was digging out there last summer, which in my mind means post-Destiny. Also, weren't the tools used to kidnap Laurie stolen between last summer and now?

actually I think there have been some recent studies on human DNA having at least a collective memory. And perhaps the alien essence would have the ability to read more individual memories. But I would still have a problem with Max's donor having grandfathered Liz (ewww). Hence I prefer that Original Zan traveled into the future and fell in love with Liz (someone else's theory--Palomino's?) or Max just 'remembers' the future (the chicken-or-egg-first mind boggler).

Anyway, huggybehr, I like your idea that Max has a human soul.

Clues between these quotes has haunting me.
Please help me!

...Clues between these quotes has haunting me.
Please help me!
Vihmakass, I'm sorry to say that I think it's hopeless. I don't think the writers even know yet! But we can have fun making up possibilities.

And reading these clues sure points to Liz changing being a key to the continued existence of Max.

Okay, Agent shapeshifter here has something to report from the uncut HTOHL script transcribed at http://members.fortunecity.com/wsgan/spoilers/htohl.html by gAbby: quote:MICHAEL: 'Thought I had it rough. He was working full-time in the copper mines by the time her was 15. Guess it's worth it if three years later, you discover the largest silver deposit in Arizona. "copper" mines? Like Copper Summit?
And Brody got abducted after he got rich quick as did Granpa.

I was able to meet Qfanny today and she rocks!!!!!!!! We went on a Roswellian Tour today and we saw lots of DIAMONDS and I got a pinecone and Four Square dirt! Yippee skippee! We had a blast throwing out and discussing theories! Just random thoughts I had to share...

I'm getting now after the tour, but I shall return! Take care! I it here!

Were it's now ?
I think you right, even writers don't know.
I wondering does J.K. knows.
(Sad and very random thougts)
sry.gram.

i had something about dates... one moment while i try to remember.

oh yes. got it.

Liz apparently gave the knife to Max the last christmas, but i'm almost certain (i'll go check a script in a minute) they weren't together at the time. so why woud their names be engraved on it that way? and ouch, ok, need to stop talking about it cos it still hurts... does anyone have any happy spoilers? i mean happy here.

ok, leaving before i really embarass myself.

-g.

What I am saying, though, is that their tests were probably not done here on earth. I think they probably did a lot of tests, but unfortunately, they were not here on earth. CWW commented in her journal that this planet is too close to its sun. What effect did that have on the pods? Time itself is obviously quite different on Antar. I think there are far too many variables that could have altered their plans without adequate testing here on earth.
And what if they were planning to have the pods mature in the ship? Zero gravity is obviously much different than earth. It is possible that their intent was not to land on earth in 1947, and would have circled earth for a few years until the pods hatched on their ship. Unfortunately, they crashed.

I haven't been here in a while - good to see everyone alive and kicking.

I have been wondering about time also. It kind of amazed me in MITC when Larek (or someone) states that their planets have been at war for 50 years. Wouldn't time HAVE to be counted differently in a different solar system? It would have to be or all of the aliens (Larek, Khivar) would be at least 70 in human terms. I'm just wondering how they could state that 50 years have passed and the old guard is still going strong?

(Ancient?)

MICHAEL: 'Thought I had it rough. He was working full-time in the copper mines by the time her was 15. Guess it's worth it if three years later, you discover the largest silver deposit in Arizona.

"copper" mines? Like Copper Summit?
And Brody got abducted after he got rich quick as did Granpa.

That's a really good point. From what Larek said about needing to prepare Brody's body, and what Brody has said about losing time, we can assume that the aliens need to take someone who won't be missed. Who better than a millionaire? No one expects them to show up at work, after all As for the temps, it's kind of the same thing--as long as someone signs their timecard and some company pays the temp agency for their time, the agency isn't going to question their employees being gone. Although, the payment part does raise some interesting questions

Thanks for posting the cut bits, shapeshifter. They're always fascinating

To everyone who is going to the LA party this weekend: Have Fun!!!!
~Tas

Time is one of my biggest questions about Antar. A year on Antar is probably much longer than 365 days, since they seem to be much further from their sun. (Of course that is going by our time frame of 1 year = 1 rotation around the sun, but the Antarians could be measuring a year quite differently.) I think the only reason that Larek said 50 years, is because that is what Max would understand. If he had said 10 quibbles, Max would have had to ask "What is a Quibble?"

He didn't kidnap tess, CW did and she probably fond out more info on Tess once Liz gave her the name.

She had something to go on.

But just like she didn't everything because she didn't know which was which and knew Liz is connnected to the Royal four somehow but didn't know how because she smelled Max on Liz.

Clues between these quotes has haunting me.
Please help me!

Maybe in the past life Ava cheated on Zan, and that's why she put it there, because Max is with Liz?

Grant was not involved in kidnapping Tess at all. Valenti and Max just assumed. I think the writer's wanted to get rid of Grant so they added him in that story line.

I stand corrected about Grant last summer. I can't remember everything.

As for Grant not kidnapping Tess, how did he get those scratches on his neck? And why did Isabel get flashes from his blood there? No; the clues were too thick... :sigh:

Vihmakass, jjac, kristine888, et al (Reggie? ),
About time:
Good point Vihmakass about the "Ancient History" and jjac, the "50-year war." You guys have got me thinking that when Liz asked Max in the eraser room at the beginning of Season 1: 'so, are 3 alien years like on earth years?' that she might have been closer to the truth than anyone (even the writers ) thought.

gij, About the Christmas present knife from EOTW, I read somewhere (will look for it later) that this was a blooper that they let go even though Jason Behr wanted them to change it. I'm guessing they left it in for the symbolism or because it would have cost time ($$) to change it.

avaspeaks, I agree with Reggie on the evidence in favor of Grant being involved with kidnapping Tess. So, what I'd like to know now is, did the writers already have the Hybrid Chronicles plot lined out when Surprise was made? If not, would they have just decided to leave those clues to his guilt and go a different way? Or are they going to revisit this?
Metaphysicalgrl,like my mom always said when she got home from the grocery store & now like I always say: "Start me a new list!"

Okay, and now, enough of my own thoughts, take a look at this awesome post by Aphid over on the CHADs thread, it really fits here: quote:...In essence, I would love to see an arc where Liz went to some "pre-Harvard" camp of some sort where she gets to "be a college student" at Harvard for a few weeks (you know, shadow a student, go to classes, work in the lab with them, etc...) so that she could get the idea of what going to college away from all her friends and the excitment of the daily life and death struggle to save the world that has become her life since sophmore year. I think she might come back reallizing two things. First of all that Harvard, while wonderful, is not as great as she imagined it when she was seven and secondly that as much as she loves science, to go to Boston means leaving behind the once in a lifetime experience to "be a part of something bigger than yourself" that Alex was talking about and perhaps she just doesn't want to do that. I would love to see her come to the realization that she can go get an education in Molecular Genetics anywhere at any time, but the ability to be part of saving the world from evil aliens and freeing a race of good aliens is only going to happen for her here and now. That is the correct reason for her to go to college at the University of New Mexico in Roswell (or whatever that university was that PJC found).

In essence, Liz needs to let go of her childish plan that she made for her life and realize that being a part of what Max and the rest are doing is important to her. More important to her than going to Harvard. When she realizes this, I think she will have made peace with her decision to stay near enough to Roswell to continue to be a part of their lives because it is what she wants to do with her life. Pure and simple. Not because she wants to be together with Max (though I think that will happen anyway). In fact, I would love for her to make the decision to stay at a point when Max is dating someone else. Then the decision to stay will not be tainted with the possibility that she is staying, even in part, to be in a relationship with him...

Who do you think was Ava's lover, Kivar, Nicholas, or Michael (sorry )?

~Tas

I absolutely feel that Liz needs to experience life without the Podsters to realize that she should be a part of something bigger than herself. School can wait. Life won't wait. You never know what you've got until it's gone and perhaps she won't need to ever lose what she has with the Podsters + if she ventures out on her own and sees how much she wants to be a part of them and really do something with her life. Is this making sense? If it's Liz's choice to leave and try to find herself, it won't be a forced thing and she can always go back to her alien-filled life. She does need to see the world and I'm sure Max will be there waiting for her as he said he would. Random tangent... Sorry for dragging you into my warped mind!!! I was just refelecting on my own life and how similar it would be to Liz's if she went out on her own and came back. Sometimes you need to leave to value what you have at home.

I absolutely feel that Liz needs to experience life without the Podsters to realize that she should be a part of something bigger (...) Sometimes you need to leave to value what you have at home.
[/B]
I think that that's part of what she was doing in Florida last summer, whether she knew it or not.

PLEASE let Qfanny borrow your computer! I put some private messages up on FF for her. Thanks! and do say Hi to her for me, too.

Plan for the Podsters-someone, on either this thread or the CHADs made a speculation about what was supposed to have happened to the podsters if the ship had not crashed. It went something like this:
--There were at least four Nasedokin(shapeshifters) on board the ship. So what if, we have two mated pairs (ie: Nasedo and Mrs. Nasedo, and Dupe'sprotector and Mrs. Dupe'sprotector) on board? Then we have two families- a mommy and a daddy and four little ones. In otherwords, if the ship had not crashed, the government would not have been chasing Nasedo, the other shifters wouldn't have died, they all could have popped a squat until the podsters hatched. Nasedo and the Mrs could have done whatever, and then "moved" to Roswell (or wherever they wanted) with their four kids and raised them to be leaders etc.

I have adopted this. It seems plausible, and I just like it . Also, this made me think that Nasedo's wife/mate/whatever either died, or had to go with the Dupes. Isn't that so sad? I know its just a spec, but maybe that's why Nasedo was such a nutjob.

Val

dreamergirl68, did Qfanny say she had met/seen any of the cast?

the reason I'm up now is because my 17-year-old daughter is leaving yet another piece of my Mazda out there somewhere.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira".

Now to RBI stuff. About the shapeshifters forming a family for the podsters. I totally agree with that. I've thought about it, but really only in fanfic. I don't know why I never carried it over in thinking about the show's mythology. But the whole family thing and taking away their memories seems to strange to do without having someone from their planet teaching them what they needed to know.

And their mother's message was just too warm for me to believe that she would have left them to just be raised by anyone.

Okay, stopping now, because I'm tired and I know that I'll start rambling soon.

I know this has been discussed before, but there are always more insights to be gained by revisiting previous discussions. I'm back on the issue of the nature of the alien essence. I would love to know what exactly that is. I always thought of it as their 'soul' for want of a better word. But, I'm more and more thinking that Max and Co. actually have human souls.

Lannie said that the Pod Squad were the rejects because they were too human. What if there is some truth in that? The alien scientists who created the hybrids did not bargain for the fact that re-creating human bodies would re-create human souls. The human and alien souls are trying to co-exist in one body and one of them has to be more dominant. The differences between our gang and the dupes seems to indicate this.

Maybe this is why Max is so reluctant to accept his destiny. His soulmate connection from his human side is more powerful than his alien connection to former Tess. I think this is what Tess will come to realise from interacting with humans instead of Nasedo, that she is in fact more human than alien. Remember her comment to Max in 'Ask Not', when she pointed to her body and said this is not who I am? She may find out that this is exactly who she is.

Also, I always thought that Max was trying to pretend that he was human and ignore his alien side, but essentially he is a human who was created using alien technology. It's no wonder he's not coping with this leader role, everything he is dealing with in season 2 is just so alien to him.

Does any of this make any sense to anyone?

Just rambling. I was up really early with a barfing kid - so I may be making no sense.

<yawning>

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

As everyone else here on this thread, I love Liz and actually identify with her more than any other character on Roswell. However, saying that, I don't want any one character to outshine any other. One of Roswell's strengths is its ensemble nature and how everyone works together toward a common goal. This aspect of the show seemed to have been lost somewhat earlier in S2, but from MITC on and especially in the HC, has been resurfacing, to much benefit.

It did look a lot like they were purposely trying to shoot her and the fact Maria was working there and they told her to get lost when she served them coffee (because she might hear something and tell Liz!)
but there was something else...Max and Michael were in the Crashdown together, BUT ISABEL WASN'T!!
The three were always together and notice she was no where in sight that time, like she didn't want to be there because she had hired those guys and wanted Liz dead!

*********************************************
I really like this theory - it would work with Isabel being Vilandra. Hmmmmmmmmmmm

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Lannie said that the Pod Squad were the rejects because they were too human. What if there is some truth in that? The alien scientists who created the hybrids did not bargain for the fact that re-creating human bodies would re-create human souls. The human and alien souls are trying to co-exist in one body and one of them has to be more dominant. The differences between our gang and the dupes seems to indicate this.

Maybe this is why Max is so reluctant to accept his destiny. His soulmate connection from his human side is more powerful than his alien connection to former Tess. I think this is what Tess will come to realise from interacting with humans instead of Nasedo, that she is in fact more human than alien. Remember her comment to Max in 'Ask Not', when she pointed to her body and said this is not who I am? She may find out that this is exactly who she is.

This could certainly be just my belief, but I think that souls are raceless. If anyone's seen Babylon 5, the Mbari surrendered to Earth at the moment when they were about to win the war because they discovered that a human had a Mbari soul--and a revered one at that. I believe that the physical form has an effect on the soul, there's no question of that, but I don't think that Max has two souls--just one soul, in one conflicted body. It's his body where the human/alien tug-o-war is happening. Like, in the core of a human's brain there is actually a vestige of a reptilian brain, combined with a mammalian part. These are contained in the parts of the brain that are generally considered to be not used. Like Nasedo said in WR, there's a lot of wasted space in the human brain. Now, what if that core of the brain has not only the reptilian and Mammalian aspects, but also an alien aspect in the posdsters? I know their cerebral cortexes are supposed to be fully functional, but surely that's not the only part of the brain that was affected by the alien DNA/essences. What if, when Tess shows up and Max & Isabel say they feel something primal waking up inside them--what if that's what's waking up? It's commonly held that this brain core is what's responsible for many of our instincts, such as sex and survival. Maybe that's why Max was drawn so abnormally to Tess, b/c that part of his brain was being activated.

OK, I know I went WAY out on a limb here, and it may not have been the first time this has been suggested, but I figured I'd throw it out there anyway

StarBox The idea that Isabel hired the shooters is interesting, but it doesn't really work for me. Frankly, I don't think she would be able to pull off that kind of a plan, unless it was a Future Isabel trying to prevent Max from getting together with Liz by killing her, which opens a whole new can of worms
~Tas

I like this. There's been speculation that the shapeshifter(s) were to raise the podsters, but no organizational plan that I'd seen. (What's the "chads" thread about, and are they any good?)

I can readily see Harding putting emotions aside, if he were bereaved, simply as a way of coping. Tic-tac, though...
I think that one of the Glowey Guys is a gal. Shorter, slighter of build; she's the one on the right. Harding was functionally male , so I think Tic-tac is the female. Also note that Tic-tac has been the warm & fuzzy one, and ferocious in defending her charges. (Dr. Margolin, and Hank's killer, for example.)

As for glowey guys not being shapeshifters: remember that when Harding was being revived, he shifted through several shapes, including one that looked like a glowey guy. Shapeshifter, have you a screencap of this?

About the shooting - yes - it would be FUTURE Isabel (as in one who had reclaimed her Vilandra legacy).

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

What I think would be an interesting theory/storyline that the writers could explore - if they had half a brain this season - is that Liz is/was an evil queen/princess who helped K'var overthrow Maxes family... And who that Max was already in love with before she betrayed him.

Okay, here is where it gets kind of complicated, and why I am posting this on the "Liz's importance to the Alien Myth.." thread:

Nasedo and the PS leave Antar, once they are killed, while Liz stays behind and acts as a figure head, ruling the people and keeping them in line. Of course, K'var controls her so it's almost no difference.

However, all this time - Meaning, the time when between when Nasedo and PS left Antar and when Liz leaves Antar (we'll get to that, just hang in there) - She has been struggling with the guilt that she caused the death of her one true love (Max) and finally decides to make it right and stage a revolt against K'var.

The revolt fails, Liz is killed - Because K'var has pretty much subjugated the populaton through tyranny at this point - But one of K'var's circle is really loyal to Maxes family (always has been) grabs Liz's essence and high tails it to Earth... Along with a "friend" (more on that later).

Now, remember, the PS has already crashed. This is around 1947. Liz's guardian - the one loyal to Maxes family - Arrives on Earth around 1970, hence the time difference that Liz spends on Antar anguishing over what she did and keeping the popullace in line. That's 23 years (Earth years).

Once they land, Liz's guardian and the friend declare they need human DNA to recreat Liz into human form. In addition, they are recieving homing becons which only allies of Max's royal family can detect... And it turns it's from the Pod Cave.

So, the second alien goes to investigate the source of the signal, and Liz's guardian goes in search of human DNA.

Guess what?

Liz's guardian encounters Sheila Hubble outside the diner in Bitter Lake (UFO Convention), extracts her DNA and in the process accidently kills her while Hubble is inside getting matches for the fireworks.

Liz's guardian hauls ass back to the ship and starts mixing Liz's essence with the newly extracted Shiela Hubble DNA - This is why Liz looks like Shiela geneticallt speaking (dark hair, Latina) and in the process, inserts an altered gene that unlocks the power of the Granolith - This is hinted at by other theories on this thread.

The whole idea is to have Liz develop into a human girl raise her with the knowledge of what she has done, hope she makes the right decision to want to put things right, find Max and the others, and stage a revolt back to Antar.

However, once on board the ship, it turns out that the "friend" whom accompanied Liz's guardian is really loyal to K'var. So she plans on killing Liz's guardian, destroying the developing zyote - Liz - Which is held in suspended animation - And return to Antar.

A fight ensues, the ship crashes, Liz's guardian is killed, but Liz's container manages to survive with the undeveloped zygote suspended in animation.

Guess where the ship crashed?

Around this time, Grandma Claudia (GC) is doing research with River Dog on the Mesaliko Reservation for her book.

They witness the crash, sift through the smoldering debris, and find Liz's container. They open it and are amazed at what they find (what I've said twice above).

River Dog and GC don't know what to do, so GC takes it to a gentists who tells her exactly what it is... And that the technology which is keeping it alive and suspended is not of this Earth.

The gentist of course calls the government, they aren't a bad person per se, just didn't know who else to call, and the MIB - Men In Black - are sent in headed by Agent McMahon.

Agent McMahon demands the container, but of course, GC and River Dog won't give it up. McMahon threatens to kill them and everyone on the Misaliko reservation for just having found it and the crash.

Around this time, Nasedo arrives - because he's in the government and gets wind of stuff like this - Fries him (McMahon), but fails to realize what McMhaon was after.

So, from then on, RD and GC decide to just keep the container hidden since if the government wants it, "it can't be good" since they almost killed them for it.

Okay, skip ahead 13 years.

It's 1983. The PS come out of their pods and Liz's container is activated and Liz grows into a human baby girl right before RD and GC's eyes without the need for a womb or placenta.

And GC takes Liz to her son, Jeff and his wife, Nancy and presents the girl to them since they have been having trouble conceiving. They name the girl Liz and the rest is history

This could work as far as continuity, and also from a dramatic storypoint since this makes the whole "Rome and Juliet" theme between Max and Liz that much more compelling, plus it gives Liz the greatest character arc of the entire show as she deals with these revelations and what she did to Max's family.

What would be even more compelling would be that Liz - instead of K'var killing her - She kills herself with the knowledge that she will be reborn and given a second chance to make things right... Let alone be with her one true love on Earth. Either way, this still fits in with Liz's guardian taking her to Earth.

What do you think?

I know it's not a perfect storyline, but it sure as Hell is a lot more solid than the stuff we've been given this season

Huggybehr, I like Tasyfa's Babylon 5 take on the soul issue because if we have distinctions between alien souls and human souls then the show becomes a bit of a platform for racism. In fact, I had trouble with them wantonly wasting the Skins in Wipe Out, even though it was defensive and they did save Courtney, the token Good Skin. But, if they want to do the alien soul vs. human soul thing, I'm not sure that humans are typically Good; it would have to be Good on a continum, and unless they have something representative of redemption for Bad souls, it goes back to the Good Race vs. Bad Race thing again. Does that make sense?

ETAmerican, I like the repentent Liz in your story, but I still like my Liz to be a small town human girl who just happens to fall in love with an alien. And this may be very ethnocentric of me, I wish we could go back to when Max, Michael, and Isabel were aliens (not clones) and the aliens were like us, not glowy guys.

It is interesting you bring up you wish the PS were actual aliens and not clones.

Long, long ago... In a thread rant far far away...

I stated that the reason so many fans didn't like what Destiny (or the last six episodes of Season One wrought) is because of exactly what you stated because what the writers failed to remember is that the audience brings with them their own sense of values and beliefs when watching the show and clones and cloing is a very "touchy" subject.

From a story POV (point of view), making them clones presents a great opportunity to explore the "what is a human" or what really makes up a person: who they were before or their soul is now in the cloned body. You know, nature vs. nuture taken to the Nth degree.

However, since clones and cloning isn't so much sci-fi as science fact now days it brings with it a lot of moral issues which people are divided on for various reasons (ethical, religous, personal, etc.).

I know this isn't what you were getting at, but it is kind of because when you take away the "human" factor from, believe it or not, the aliens (M/M/I) then there is nothing worth connecting to or going on the journey with them for since "fiding yourself" doesn't really apply to a clone.

Does this make sense?

That was my major gripe with Destiny (aside from it being a lazy plot device) is that we had spent all of Season One getting to know these characters - the aliens - and how they gradually and slowly finding their way and place in the world which is the purpose of them as an "alienation" metaphor... And then they pulled the rug out from under us and made them, well, basically machines if you will.

Again, I can see what they were trying to do with the dramatic exploration potential (like I acknowledged above), but it really did take away from the main characters as being relatable as, ironically, the most human on the show next to L/A/M.

But then we got season two and the writers don't seem to know what the Hell they are doing so any dramatic potential of exploring what makes a person has gone completely out the window in my book.

I'll stop there. I've ranted enough about the quality of the show on other threads.

Tas that is an interesting idea. I have always thought the 'soul' is the essence of the individual, but your perspective leads me to think otherwise. Maybe there is more to the 'physical' dimension of the individual and the mysteries of the brain hold more secrets than we imagine.

Hmmmm...I like this theory. I like it even better if you substitute the chosen humans for someone else...I don't know...say Grandma Claudia, or something. Hence, Max recognizing Liz on first sight....

Just rambling. I was up really early with a barfing kid - so I may be making no sense.

<yawning>

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Hmmm...interesting. I like how you call the original aliens in the crash "glowies"

Here's something to ponder...what if the "glowies" are the shapeshifters natural alien form. Maybe when they first crashed they didn't have the ability to shapeshift...perhaps the ability to shapeshift was a survival technique; something that they were capable of, but didn't ever need to do on Antar.

I really think the "glowies" are the shapeshifters. I just think that when they first crashed, they were of course in their natural alien form.

Anyway...I'm just guessing. Wouldn't it be nice if the writers tied up this loose thread for us?

{~}:}

My perception is that when a SS "dies", that there's enough mechanical cohesiveness to hold the body's current shape. Think rigor mortis. When a SS really dies, though, there's nothing left to hold its body in any shape, so it just becomes a shapeless pile. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust...

We returned from Disney World late Tuesday night and I immediately took off for a voice competition down in Mobile over the weekend. I'm finally settled back at home now after very pleasant travel.

It's hopeless to try to catch up on all your posts over a thread and a half, so I'm just going to skip comment on HtOHL -- except this one thing: I was excited to see the swirl symbol appear in grandpa's notes!

Nice to be back with you all again!

Zara

And ETAmerican, very articulate rant. Hope TPTB will meditate on it--**sigh** if they have time what with worrying about ratings and everything.

ETAMERICAN-I have read many of your posts throughout this board and agree with so much of what you have said especially the part about the characters not being as likeable as they were in SEASON1--I think this is sadly true. As for your idea about Liz being a former enemy well we have touched on the ROMEO and JULIET theme several times--we think its a very workable theory among many.
But really who knows what is in those writers minds anymore.

Lately, there seem to be a lot of stripes. Also, bars of dark/light filtering through window slats -- sometimes onto people's faces. These bars made me wonder whether someone was headed for jail (Sheriff Valenti, as the judge threatened? There were even bars on the judge's shirt collar...). Or maybe the shadow bars on Liz's face in the closet scene (in TSAP) symbolize her feeling of being trapped by circumstances.

Here on Michael's shirt there are four stripes each side of center (5 if you count the button/buttonhole strips that hold everything together....) The stripes also have one diamond each (at different heights).

from HTOHL (crashdown.com)

Here Michael's shirt has 5 gray stripes (only 3 are seen here, the rest show up as the camera searches the empty hospital room). Notice that each broad stripe has a white line at the center, except one stripe has two white lines. My guess is that 5's often symbolize Max, Michael, Isabel, Tess, and Liz. I wonder whether the doubled white lines refer to Liz now having two sides to her nature? Maybe it's just that being healed by Max has changed her (as Ava said), or maybe there's more to it than that....

from WAF (crashdown.com; brightness/contrast altered)

Something different, but striking, is the shadow pattern behind Isabel here. It looks deliberate (reminds me of a zipper coming apart; it was more conspicuous in the original); I wonder how it connects with the story....

from HTOHL

Yeah, really, and PLEASE somebody tell me why they didn't ask Larek HOW they were supposed to get off the planet... We watched this epi in the hotel at Disney, when the scene with Larek ended my husband said: "How do you get off the PLANET! ASK HIM HOW YOU GET OFF THE PLANET!" Pretty funny...

Also, it would be great to see a pic of Grandma Ada Jane. I wonder if she was a mathematician... Ada Lovelace? (ha ha computer joke - she developed the first programming language (19th C) and was the sister (I think) of John Gordon, Lord Byron...)

To all: are you sure that the GD notebook had the spiral orb symbol or was it just a spiral. Many other books/shows have depicted someone as being crazy by writing all over a page and even in a spiral.

The spiraled writing in the journal has more loops than the beeper symbol but I don't see that as a conflict. The shape of the writing conveys the essence of the symbol.

Symbols are merely visual representations of concepts - they may be more or less detailed in different implementations but their similarity is in their association with a common theme. Think Celtic crosses, crucifixes and simple crosses - they differ, but we still see the same image conveyed by the form.

I realize that Ava resembles Tess, but is it possible that Ava is Liz from the future? In a sci-fi book that I have called "See You Later", this girl comes back in time to alter her future, thereby altering the future of humanity. But in order to ensure that she isn't recognized, she has to disguise herself as someone else. I don't know. This is just rolling around in my head. Could Tess/Ava be a future version of Liz, come back in time and disguised as Tess/Ava?

I realize that my first problem with this theory is the lack of chemistry/attraction between Max and Tess. I'm not sure if this makes sense, or is at all plausible, but if I missed something that you guys have already discussed that feeds or negates this, well, I don't mind being told I'm wrong.

I have to go find out what GD's swirly symbol said.

Lately, there seem to be a lot of stripes. Also, bars of dark/light filtering through window slats -- sometimes onto people's faces. These bars made me wonder whether someone was headed for jail (Sheriff Valenti, as the judge threatened? There were even bars on the judge's shirt collar...). Or maybe the shadow bars on Liz's face in the closet scene (in TSAP) symbolize her feeling of being trapped by circumstances.

Here on Michael's shirt there are four stripes each side of center (5 if you count the button/buttonhole strips that hold everything together....) The stripes also have one diamond each (at different heights).

from HTOHL (crashdown.com)

Here Michael's shirt has 5 gray stripes (only 3 are seen here, the rest show up as the camera searches the empty hospital room). Notice that each broad stripe has a white line at the center, except one stripe has two white lines. My guess is that 5's often symbolize Max, Michael, Isabel, Tess, and Liz. I wonder whether the doubled white lines refer to Liz now having two sides to her nature? Maybe it's just that being healed by Max has changed her (as Ava said), or maybe there's more to it than that....

from WAF (crashdown.com; brightness/contrast altered)

Something different, but striking, is the shadow pattern behind Isabel here. It looks deliberate (reminds me of a zipper coming apart; it was more conspicuous in the original); I wonder how it connects with the story....

from HTOHL

What's with Michael's shirt stripes matching the background?!

(ie., 1st picture- vertical stripes=vertical stripes on the wall paper; 2nd picture- horizontal stripes=horizontal lines of the blinds)

In the same dining room scene as Michael's striped shirt from HTOHL, did anyone notice the candles behind Laurie? There were two on each side of her. They were graduated in height, so with Laurie's head in the middle it made a V-shape. If you think in terms of the V constellation, her head was the bottom planet. Am I just seeing this?? If not, what do you all think it means?? I'm somewhat pic-posting challenged, so maybe someone could post a screencap if there is one. Pretty Please ?

Also, when the widowed bride line of American Pie is sung, Alex is the only one in the shot. I know there was some speculation when he came back from Sweden that he was different. The line about him not even knowing himself when he looks in the mirror was discussed. With that in mind, what could be the relevance of the "widowed bride" and only showing Alex? Any thoughts??
It may be nothing, but I thought it was odd that he was focused on while singing that line.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to Viva Las Vegas!!!!! Maybe while the gang is in Las Vegas they can hook up with Grissom from CSI and spin Liz's DNA through that nifty little machine. I for one would love to see the results!!!!!!

I got two cosmic and rather Lizish t-shirts - one is a yin/yang with Mickey ears on top and the other was a dragon swirling around to form the three-circle silouette of Mickey's head. Very fun.

I'm back from my own "Viva Las Vegas"! What a blast! I hope the show is as fun as my trip was - though I wasn't there for gambling, but partying!

I have lots to catch up, so will be back later after reading and watching the show tonight! I can hardly wait.

I'm also interested in reports from any of our friends who attended the LA gathering! Qfanny??? If there are spoilers involve, just PM me. I don't mind being a little spoiled - though I bet they are trying to keep that all under tight wrap right now with the season coming to a close.

Well - it is great to me back! See you all later! And Zara - I too am headed to Disney World soon, so would love pointers!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Prays to CharmedKitten's family right now. Wish them good luck and good health.

I talked with KKB about "We have to get rid of her." The truckers were STUNT people and they were told to adlib. He then sort of hugged me and said I worry to much, but the line is fluke, albeit, an interesting one.

Camouflage, apparently. He's a soldier.

And Nemo & Zara et al, About Stripes, crosses, etc.:
I immediately thought camouflage too, but after reading Qfanny's post it seems more likely that they told him to wear the shirts that blended in so his character would stand out.
And for the same reason I'm thinking the irregular red cross would have been the best they could throw together at that time.

But Audrey11, I'm not ready to hand in my RBI badge just yet, I think if you tweak your Ava-as-visitor-from future theory, you could come up with something. Of course, we've got Hal's word that there were two sets of pods at the same time. I guess we better just try to enjoy tonight's show and, like Qfan said KKB said, not to worry too much.

HOWEVER, re: quote:Originally posted by Nemo:
Something different, but striking, is the shadow pattern behind Isabel here. It looks deliberate (reminds me of a zipper coming apart; it was more conspicuous in the original); I wonder how it connects with the story....
from HTOHLNot even KKB can convince me for one minute that this 'zipper' is not symbolic of DNA and probably also of Isabel splitting from Grant AND Grant splitting from himself. hmmph! not worry indeed! <--laughing at self

Qfanny - Welcome back! I hope you had a wonderful time in LA! I look forward to hearing more information that you picked up!

Kristine888 and Reggie - I too have often wondered about the length of the incubation for the pods - whether it was planned or accidental. Given that CW writes about looking for the podsters in her journal leads me to believe that the Skins expected that the podsters would have hatched much earlier - though they may have not known the actual process used to get the podsters here to Earth. Anyway - I too have lots of questions and would like to know more.

Thanks shapeshifter (I think it was you) who posted Aphid's post about visiting a college. Grace Kel - I understand where you are coming from, but I look at it less of a "growth" need as the ability to realize that she is important to the scheme of things even though she "May" be only the smallest of small town girls. A matter of finding herself - which often is referred to as "growing." But I too have never understood the negative attitude towards Liz and the "whiny" comments. I have always chalked it up to some people just rub others wrong - or they have a problem with "smart girls"! I also think the trip to Florida was supposed to be part of that "finding" of herself journey - but the writers never did anything with that??? Too bad - because I think the result would be that no matter where Liz goes she will never find a more important education and more meaning to her life than that which she has with the Pod Squad. AND of course, together with Max, she makes the awesome force to reckon with!

huggybehr - the entire discussion about souls and nature vs. nuture is fascinating to me. I never getting bored hearing what people think and discussing it.

See you after the show -
Zero
I Shall Believe!

FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT WANT TO BE SPOILED, STOP HERE.

sorry. i have to sleep soon and i can't wait until 1am until almost everyone has seen the eppy but...

funny how the camera pans around liz to focus on max and liz's connversation with the elvis chapel sign shining brightly between them and the whole conversation about not marrying in a chapel ".... not in this lifetime" (max) yet, he looked like he wanted to take the words back after they were spoken. and the way they were standing, looking at each other... it's the bride on the left and groom on the right. maybe to emphasize what could have been? or what could still be. maria even said in the beginning of the episode that you make the destiny. and liz and max holding hands together and happy!! i'm so happy. when max opens the door and continues to hold liz's hands..... it's like, the door opening is like facing whatever battle and holding hand is like, they face the challenge together.

ok. still reeling in dreamer happiness.

VLV was a great ep. Not very moving in the myth plot line but still good. The flash was everything I had hoped it would be but I was hoping for a kiss. It's alright that we didn't get one, but it would have been nice.

In the beginning anyone notice Maria's shirt? It was gold and had a diamond pattern on it.

I have to watch it again before I say any more but I just wanted to throw that out there.

So Liz is ready to tell Max. ***sigh***

I absolutely loved this episode! It is definitely a keeper - but I keep all of them! All the characters were in true "character" (congrats to the writers for that!), and the Max/Liz interactions were so wonderful! The wedding flash was perfect - though I have to figure - or get my mind around - how Max could get a "flash" of a "future" event that never happens in this lifetime?? Okay - I need an explanation - but LOVE IT anyways! NO Complaint!! I loved how Liz confesses to the security guard and then spends the entire time playing pinball! That's my Liz!! Now - can anyone tell me what that necklace was she was wearing????

I also adore the fact that Liz and Max entered the suite holding hands at the end. It was a bit anti-climatic that we had no more interaction after Valenti's speech, but I will take what I can get, especially when it is an episode that is so well written!!

The entire wedding stuff has to have been put in there for a reason! For some reason I think we are in for a roller coaster to the end of the season - it just can't be easy in TV land - but ...

I will have to rewatch this one again to pick up on the Myth stuff - but the necklace jumped out at me. I'm sure we will find lots more!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
Please someone repost the wedding picture - the Dreamer in me just wants to see it again!

Shaiwon72: The Liz-Elvis Chapel-Max placement was great! The tone in Max's voice when he said "not in this lifetime" was what got me thinking. Not sure what to think, but his tone struck a chord with me. Things that make you go hmm...

Zero: Glad to hear you had a great "Viva Las Vegas" trip yourself!

ETAmerican: Amazingly well thought out Liz-second chance-redemption theory. I would just hate it if Liz had ever betrayed Max, even if it was ancient history.

Tasyfa: Maybe I'm just slow, but you just taught me that the human brain is repitilian and mammalian. Amazing! Thank you for stimulating my mind!

huggybehr: I do believe that the Podsters have souls. I only base this on the choices they have made so far and the fact that they feel so intensely. They have an incredible sense of right and wrong and I think this comes from the soul within. Then, as I contradict myself, I look at the Dupes, except Ava and possibly Zan if he hadn't "died", and think maybe they don't have souls judging by the way they acted. Maybe they are just too close too and know too much about their Antarian histories to even consider having consciences. Just a thought...

Metaphysicalgrl: I like your theory on the "glowies" being shapeshifters who needed to shapeshift to adapt. I have heard that Katims only read the first Roswell HIgh book by the talented Melinda Metz, but in book 5, a doctor in the compound which holds THE ship states that the aliens bodies can adapt to any environment they encounter. Isabel then shapeshifts to what seems to be her original form and back after a tranquilizer injection. Have you read it or do you just have ESP?

Qfanny: It was so good to meet you! You are so much fun and I hope we can meet again soon! You rock, sisterfrend!!!!!!!!!! Great info about the shooters ad-libbing in the pilot. I guess sometimes we may just "worry too much". That's what being an RBI is all about I guess!

Now, after all the random replies I just wrote, I got to thinking about the following pic:
quote:Originally posted by Nemo:

from HTOHL (crashdown.com)

The statue behind Michael... Does it look like that c-word medical symbol that I won't even attempt to spell and am too lazy to go to another program to spell check? The snakes wrapped together? Could this have been some sort of foreshadowing that Michael would be shot and need to be healed by the gorgeous and talented Max? Maybe I'm just worrying too much again.

Well, now that I am "on the same page" with you all again, I am off to bed. Take care everyone!

I just loved this episode! I loved that Max was surprised that Liz would go on the Vegas trip because it isn’t like either of them. I loved that Max had to find Liz to tell her he was leaving. I loved that Max saw a memory flash of them getting married and that he told Liz about it. I loved that Max asked Liz to dance. I loved how she almost told him. And I loved that they were holding hands as they walked into the hotel room. I also loved how Michael was finally nice to Maria (took long enough!)

This was an episode that reminded me of why I love Roswell so much!
Question: Why does Isabel leather in every episode?

Explanation of the memory flash: Assuming time is a loop (or like a ball of string like in Quantum Leap) a particular place may hold onto these memories if they are strong enough. F Max may have felt so strongly about this day (which of course he would) that it left and impression. OR—without knowing it, Liz sent Max this flash! That would be great, wouldn’t it?

Symbols:

Hand holding:

Michael hands $5 over to buy coffee. It is very prominent.

Zero—the necklace jumped out at me as well, but I couldn’t really tell what it was.

I also liked how, through Michael’s words “If we stick together, we’ll make it” they repeated the theme that the Royal Four must stay together. Very nice.

Any significance with Braveheart? It's been awhile since I have seen it. Michael says the body count is either 220 or 221. Could anyone hear?

Here’s the wedding pic as requested:

I also liked how it shows Max and Liz walk in to the hotel room (holding hands in a V shape, BTW) as the King and his Queen leading the rest of the group:

More symbols: WBAndrew (Asian gambler on left) has a diamond shirt:

Here is the pic of the necklace:
or

Maybe a shell? Any takers?

I loved the positioning of this:

Did anyone else notice that all the other women characters asked “their guys” to dance or come up to them, except Liz. She is strong and confident enough to wait and Max always comes to her.

I apologize, I went pic crazy!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Really!?!? Just goes to show how much we can read into things when we want them badly enough!

I just LOVED this episode and Max and Liz?? The flashes/memories/predictions?? OH, to DIE for!!

The question really is HOW did Max see this? Someone mentioned maybe Liz "sent" it to him, but she hasn't seen it either! She knows it would have happened, but she's never seen it! The only thing I can possibly think is maybe it STILL happens! Maybe it's not Vegas.. maybe it's somewhere else, but maybe that wedding.. that kiss.. that event STILL happens and Max is simply having some sort of psychic vision (at least, this is what I'm hoping for)!

I'm certainly interested in everyone else's thoughts...

I caught a clue (maybe). When Max came up to Liz at the pinball machine, she makes a comment of "6 hours and a thousand quarters" ($250). The numbers again!!!!

Zara: I got your PM about Disney. Thanks so much, it really helped. Your Liz-ish shirts sound cool. Hey--did you ever find any pod-ish bed linens ??

Alexis: Thanks for all the pictures! The body count was 220, or 2+2+0=4. Great ideas about Max's memory flash and time loops. This time thing keeps getting more and more confusing.....

How funny was Valenti when he told the gang, "Ditching school is okay if it involves saving a planet--yours, ours, or any other...!" As a parent, I got a kick out of that.

Loved Liz telling Tess that she wasn't thrilled to be stuck with her either!! BTW, where did Tess go, and what was she up to that entire time?? That bothered me--still don't trust her.

What did you all think of Isabel's behavior when she showed up at the dinner? Since when does Isabel want to "chew up and spit out" a man?? And what was with the leather dress??

This was just a wonderful episode!! I will definitely enjoy watching it over and over looking for clues. Guess we'll have to since there will be no Roswell until April.

As some of you know, I generally have RosDreams on Monday nights. Last nights was interesting. Indulge me while I share

Liz and Maria visit a Canadian college (that comes from me reading Anne of Green Gables which is set in Canada ) and while there a young man gets Liz’s attention. At first I think he is interested in her and she is just nice to him. Later, she sees him sitting on a blanket, studying (or it looks like that). Maria and Liz are interested in going to this music concert there and he says he can get the singer to autograph their cds. So they go and this young man slips another “cd” into Liz’s bag. When Liz and Maria get home Liz notices the cd and it has some alien writing on it. Seeing this, after Liz tries to play it in her cd player, takes it to Isabel and Max. Isabel tries “playing” it with her powers but nothing works.

Liz takes it home and puts it on the nightstand by her bed. When she is sleeping, unconsciously she unlocks the cd and it starts a holographic image in front of her eyes, waking her up. The holographic image is a woman, possibly the Queen Mother who tells Liz that she is the true queen and explains to her why she is more human. Liz is shocked when she learns this and goes to tell the Pod Squad what happened. There is an issue of whether or not she imagined it. That’s all.

I just thought it was an interesting idea of another alien (maybe a member of Liz’s alien counterparts rebellion?) who comes to reveal to her who she really is.

Alexis - THANK YOU for all the wonderful pictures! I appreciate the explanations for the wedding flash (StarBox - your behnind the scene's one too), and I like the one about maybe a premonition or strong feelings lingering and retrieved! THis whole episode just made me smile! I have to find time to rewatch it today!

tp - Welcome - and great catch!

I've been having these thoughts about Zan recently. What if he really isn't dead?? Think about it. What if the Dupes (Lonnie and Rath) thought he was dead, but he really wasn't killed, and is in hiding. Now that would make for an interesting storyline - having Zan and Ava as allies to the Podsters. Plus, we would finally be able to see his reaction to Liz. Also, it would allow for Zan to go back to Antar and Max to stay with Liz. Okay - just a thought, but I subscribe to the "X-files" theory that no one is ever truly dead.

Now - the names used (drink names) for each of the characters were interesting, but most of all the references to Rob Roy and Braveheart were interesting. (Sorry if the following is boring!) I'm big on my Scottish heritage - and these are interesting references from a historical perspective! Both Rob Roy and William Wallace (Braveheart was the movie about him) are famous for their involvement in the struggle for Scottish independence from England. When you look at the struggle on Antar - they are interesting choices. Also, tho it is rarely mentioned, in Scottish society women were often part of the decision making process, and though maybe did not fight the battles, were often strong advisors (think Liz!) ! Interesting that Braveheart has been mentioned in the last two episodes.

Following is some background from Britannica.com:

Rob Roy (Max's Name) -

by name of ROBERT Macgregor (baptized March 7, 1671, Buchanan, Stirlingshire, Scot.--d. Dec. 28, 1734, Balquhidder, Perthshire), noted Highland outlaw whose reputation as a Scottish Robin Hood was exaggerated in Sir Walter Scott's novel Rob Roy (1818) and in some passages in the poems of William Wordsworth. He frequently signed himself Rob Roy ("Red Rob"), in reference to his dark red hair.

Rob's father, Donald MacGregor, a younger brother of the chief of the clan MacGregor, received a military commission from the deposed King James II after the revolution of 1688. Rob was a freebooter with uncertain loyalty to James, and probably also engaged in cattle stealing and blackmail, old and at that time still honourable Highland practices. When the penal laws against the MacGregors were reintroduced in 1693, Rob took the name of Campbell. Since his lands lay between those of the rival houses of Argyll and Montrose, for a time he was able to play one off against the other to his own advantage. James Graham, 1st duke of Montrose, succeeded in entangling him in debt, and by 1712 Rob was ruined.

He then embarked on a career of brigandage, chiefly at the expense of Montrose. During the Jacobite (pro-Stuart) rebellion of 1715 he was distrusted by both sides and plundered each impartially. After the rebellion was put down he was treated leniently because of the intercession of John Campbell, 2nd duke of Argyll. Rob continued his exploits against Montrose until 1722, when Argyll brought about a reconciliation. Later, however, Rob was arrested and confined in Newgate Prison, London; he was pardoned in 1727 when about to be transported to Barbados.

In his old age Rob became a Roman Catholic. His letters show that he was well educated; the view of him as a mere brutish highwayman seems not to do him justice.

William Wallace -

b. c. 1270,, probably near Paisley, Renfrew, Scot. d. Aug. 23, 1305, London, Eng. One of Scotland's greatest national heroes, leader of the Scottish resistance forces during the first years of the long, and ultimately successful, struggle to free Scotland from English rule.

His father, Sir Malcolm Wallace, was a small landowner in Renfrew. In 1296 King Edward I of England deposed and imprisoned the Scottish king John de Balliol and declared himself ruler of Scotland. Sporadic resistance had already occurred when, in May 1297, Wallace and a band of some 30 men burned Lanark and killed its English sheriff. Wallace then organized an army of commoners and small landowners and attacked the English garrisons between the Rivers Forth and Tay. On Sept. 11, 1297, an English army under John de Warenne, earl of Surrey, confronted him at the Forth near Stirling. Wallace's forces were greatly outnumbered, but Surrey had to cross a narrow bridge over the Forth before he could reach the Scottish positions. By slaughtering the English as they crossed the river, Wallace gained an overwhelming victory. He captured Stirling Castle, and for the moment Scotland was nearly free of occupying forces. In October he invaded northern England and ravaged the counties of Northumberland and Cumberland.

Upon returning to Scotland early in December 1297, Wallace was knighted and proclaimed guardian of the kingdom, ruling in Balliol's name. Nevertheless, many nobles lent him only grudging support; and he had yet to confront Edward I, who was campaigning in France. Edward returned to England in March 1298, and on July 3 he invaded Scotland. On July 22 Wallace's spearmen were defeated by Edward's archers and cavalry in the Battle of Falkirk, Stirling. Although Edward failed to pacify Scotland before returning to England, Wallace's military reputation was ruined. He resigned his guardianship in December and was succeeded by Robert de Bruce (later King Robert I) and Sir John Comyn "the Red."

There is some evidence that Wallace went to France in 1299 and thereafter acted as a solitary guerrilla leader in Scotland; but from the autumn of 1299 nothing is known of his activities for more than four years. Although most of the Scottish nobles submitted to Edward in 1304, the English continued to pursue Wallace relentlessly. On Aug. 5, 1305, he was arrested near Glasgow. Taken to London, he was condemned as a traitor to the king even though, as he maintained, he had never sworn allegiance to Edward. He was hanged, disemboweled, beheaded, and quartered. In 1306 Bruce raised the rebellion that eventually won independence for Scotland.

Okay - that's your Scottish History lesson for the day!

Back Later!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

How come no one's brought up the fact that Liz mid warped? It drives me nuts EVERY episode? Could you IMAGINE if one of your friends did that? Just *zoooop* and they're in NYC talking some guy they love? I mean - HELL-OOOOOO, isn't anyone going to dwell on this for a bit!!??

My first thought about it was that Liz is obviously immersed in that dream of her wedding in Las Vegas and somehow transmitted it to Max without even realising. Perhaps their connection is getting stronger, despite the apparent distance between them. The other thought I had was about Courtney's comments about time existing in multiple dimensions on Antar. (Sorry my paraphrasing might be off, it's a while since I watched the eppy and very rarely re-watch anything from season 2). Anyway, I was thinking what if future Max's actions in creating this rift in time-space has led to different possible futures leaking into their timeline? Do you get what I'm trying to say? Everybody exists in an infinite number of parallel dimensions and each one is slightly different depending on choices made at critical points on their path. For you trekkies out there there was an episode like this in STNG, when Worf was shifting between different dimensions, due to a rift in time-space. What do you think?

moon maiden - I have to "amen" what you said. When Tess and Liz bickered, I yelled at the TV (much to my husband's amusement), "Now there's the Liz-Tess animosity we know and love!". Ok, a little over the edge, but it was "normal" for those two. And about Isabel - does she honestly believe that she won't be "alone" by pursuing a one night stand?

Alexis - I like the whole Liz-throwing-a-flash idea! It is possible simply because, when Max was walking to the cab, Liz must still have been thinking about their wedding (they were just discussing weddings). It would be only natural to have it on the mind, and since we know she can purposely mind warp herself (or whatever it is she did), who's to say she can't project an imagined image? BTW, the pics you post aren't appearing on my screen? Would you know why? {Also, did you post the revised list yet on the cherish thread?)

StephStephSteph - I think that all goes back to the continuity issue. There are many things I think we would all like explained!! That's the story of my Roswell life!

I can't wait to rewatch this one. I know I missed a lot just because I was excited about seeing the show. If I find anything, I will definitely post!

Anyway, Starbox thanks for the inside info on FMax transferring some memories to present day Max-- talk about possibilites! Maybe Liz won't have to break her promise to FMax (about not telling PM) and Max will figure it out-- quickly-- himself and go to Liz!

I can't wait to rewatch this one. I know I missed a lot just because I was excited about seeing the show. If I find anything, I will definitely post!

Doesn't make it any easier to accept though - come on TPTB! Show us some answers!!!

/QUOTE]

Does this mean you don't think the dupes have souls at all, whether human or alien? I am caught up in the idea that there is more to sentient lifeforms than a body and a brain. If the soul represents the 'spark of life' they cannot exist without one. It's clear that the podsters are mostly human from their behaviour and ability to feel human emotions, whether this is due to their human souls, which I speculated about, or their upbringing with humans is debatable.

There you go Zero, keeping the discussion alive just for you! I hope you enjoyed your Vegas trip. I was there and in NY in January. I saw the Graceland wedding chapel and thought of M&L and of course at the top of the Empire State Building, that scene from MITC came to mind! Roswell is never far from my thoughts

How come no one's brought up the fact that Liz mid warped? It drives me nuts EVERY episode? Could you IMAGINE if one of your friends did that? Just *zoooop* and they're in NYC talking some guy they love? I mean - HELL-OOOOOO, isn't anyone going to dwell on this for a bit!!??

I totally agree with you, this is one of the most frustrating things about Roswell. They throw things out there just as a plot devise then leave it dangling. Don't they realise what they are doing to people like us who obsess about every little detail? That revelation was major and they've just dropped it? Maybe they'll revisit it at some point? We can only hope!

I did know about that explanation prior watching VLV Starbox and I was a little bummed when I read it. There IS still that part of me that wants to believe the "vision" Max had was so strong in him because it was tinged with a bit of clairvoyance... of an event YET TO COME ::sigh:: ...breaking out of my Dreamer euphoria now.

Onto the Mything.... I don't know if this was already brought up in here, I didn't see it. However, did any of you get a strange dejavu feeling from Michael's nightmare at the beginning of the eppy? It seemed quite reminiscent of Future Max's description of the events that happened just before FM went back in time. Isabel is "gone" (already dead?), Michael has JUST been killed and Max is the only one left (even though he disappeared in Mike's nightmare). Of course, in Future Max's description, Michael died in Max's arms... definite difference. Just a coincidence, my paranoia or might I have something here?

I also thought I'd bring it up do to the above explanation of why Max had that wedding attire "vision". If some memories were SO strong for Future Max they caused this sort of loop.... perhaps Michael's nightmare was also caused by this loop somehow? Michael was somehow "remembering" being killed (more or less)? Although some things, like location, clothing, etc... were different? Future Michael's "memories" taking on their own interpretation in 2001 Michael's mind?

Melodious

In terms of dropping such issues as Liz’s change, the Destiny Book, etc., I think it would be so easy for the writer’s to incorporate that these issues have been looked into by the characters with a side comment or two. Example, Maria has an issue with Michael so she goes to Liz to talk to her. Maria walks in and finds Liz “trying” her powers. It would go something like this:

Maria knocks swiftly on door but doesn’t wait for it to be answered, she walks in on Liz who looks like she is meditating on her bed.

MARIA(interrupting Liz out of her trance): So you are finally doing some meditating exercises I told you about to relieve stress.

LIZ: No, I was experimenting to see if I can use these new powers I was told I have. There’s got to be a way of channeling it so I can do it on queue. I figure if Michael can improve as much as he did by practicing, maybe it’ll work for me.

MARIA: Speaking of Michael…..

Or on the Destiny book:

Max comes over to Michael’s apartment to talk with him about a situation (pick one). It would go something like this:

MAX: Hey Michael.
MICHAEL (hunched over a drafting table piled with charts and the Destiny book): Hey, Maxwell.
MAX: How’s it going with that?
MICHAEL: Not very good. I have been looking at this damn book and comparing it to the cave map and I haven’t had any luck. You would think that Nasedo would have taught Tess the language! Now we have to bust our asses trying to figure it out. Enough about that. I need a break anyway. What’s up.
MAX: We have a problem….

sry.gam.

ZERO - there is a gut that posted there that saw your intro and thinks your JK posting anonomously about Liz being the main focus of the show. Its cute, you should read it. Just so I'm not making a fool of myself here, nobody else has posted a really long letter here explaining about Liz's importance to the alien myth, have they?
Ok, then. Just thought you might like to read it.

dreamertoo

How come no one's brought up the fact that Liz mid warped? It drives me nuts EVERY episode? Could you IMAGINE if one of your friends did that? Just *zoooop* and they're in NYC talking some guy they love? I mean - HELL-OOOOOO, isn't anyone going to dwell on this for a bit!!??

Steph - It is nice to see you back! Ava left (if I remember right) "because she knew what she had to do" - or something on that line - knowing that Lonnie would be back and not tolerate her betrayal lightly. But where and why is one of the MANY questions that are floating out there. MANY of US have asked the same question!

Also - I too wonder why we haven't seen Liz use or at least explore her powers (like Kyle attempting to control the TV ) in some way! I would be! But again - another loose end.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Here is the link to the thread on the WB that claims Zero is JK! http://talk.thewb.com/read.php?f=1&i=53133&t=53133

[b]ZERO - there is a gut that posted there that saw your intro and thinks your JK posting anonomously about Liz being the main focus of the show. Its cute, you should read it. Just so I'm not making a fool of myself here, nobody else has posted a really long letter here explaining about Liz's importance to the alien myth, have they?
Ok, then. Just thought you might like to read it. dreamertoo[/B]

First - Welcome Dreamertoo! I'm ROTFLMHO!! That is too funny! I can guarantee that I'm not connected to JK in any way. Though I would love to meet him and discuss Roswell and Relativity with him over coffee - a latte in Seattle! I do admit to having spent many hours on back lots and sound stages as a kid and young adult because my mom worked in the industry (she even worked with JF on STNG and his wife on GH), but that is long ago and far away since my mom is retired! No connection now, just a love of Roswell and an anal retentive personality. Actually - I'm a lot like the Liz character (only with light brown/red hair) personality-wise and that is probably why I love her character so much. Her reaction to Las Vegas was just like mine this last weekend. I'm not a gambler, but my friends whom I was visiting are (in fact she was on 20/20 talking about game shows recently), and I felt like an alien on a strange planet there in some ways - but since the weekend focus was all the birthday partying I had a blast!

I would love to read the post - can you tell me how to find it?? I get lost on the WB site sometimes trying to find things.

BTW - I love the talk about souls. I think all living creatures have souls, and that the Podsters' souls are influence, not defined, by their past lives (both human and alien) AND their current lives. So, the Dupes would have souls similary influenced - with the environment in which they are raised having a major influence on their current personality.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I posted a theory earlier that Ava could possibly be FLiz. Now, I feel like I've been chasing my tail, because everything seems to be going around in circles, but this is what I have managed to come up with that sounds at all plausible.

What if the Royal 4 are Max, Liz, Isabel and Michael and the Dupes are Zan, Rath, Lonnie and Tess? Ava being FLiz. The NM four are more human than the NY4. Now, if Liz is the 4th of the NM 4, then she could have been the one with the leaky pod. She's more human than the other 3. So maybe more of her alien essence leaked out, and that's why she hatched early. Or, possibly, and this is far-fetched, but because so much of her alien essence leaked out, they had to transfer her fetus to a human body, and the body took the fetus, because Liz was more human.

Zan was always waiting for someone else. Tess, maybe? This is going on the assumption, of course, that each and every one of the aliens, the podsters and the dupes, each have different souls.

So here we have the Roswell 4 and the NY 4 and a very helpful Ava. She looks like Tess, but she's closer to Liz in personality. I don't know why she looks like Tess instead (I'm still formulating that idea) or why FLiz would have come back, but I'm working on it.

I know this all sounds like insane rambling, but it's just the missing puzzle pieces that are making everything jumbled.

B]

Not having seen this myself, but going on what I have read, I think Max disappearing was future Max going back in time to speak to Liz about the end of the world. Remember, it was only 20 minutes after Michael's death that Max decided to travel back in time to try to fix things. And the fact that this was an ill conceived plan is kind of self evident! It was reactive, otherwise the whole 'getting me close to Tess is not all of it, you have to help me to fall out of love with you' makes no sense.
(This is paraphrased).

And also didn't Valenti act like the typical pod squad protector. But then Valenti couldn't possible be shapeshifter, could he?. Or maybe the real Valenti is dead?

And if Isabel keeps treating guys like she does, how does she expect to have someone then?

Starbox, love the simplicity of the timefold explanation. Please go post it on the SF thread!
Zero, Thanks so much for doing the research on Rob Roy and Braveheart. Re: "John Campbell, 2nd duke of Argyll," I'm thinking of Argyle socks that have diamond patterns.
huggybehr Although I prefer that Max just "remembered" the Wedding and that therefore we can now assume little Max "remembered" little Liz, I think your flash throwing fits in too in that Liz is remembering too.
Wishful Thinking, I am thinking this one will re-air soon, but if not, I could get you a mediocre copy.
Medodius, I too was creeped out by Michael's nightmare. And about FM's memory of the wedding being "so strong," yea, I have room for that in my theory too. Like he held on to that one memory so tight and just couldn't let it go.

Qfanny--did you really think they would tell you if that line was important or not when they acted like they never thought Liz was changed either in the past? I wouldn't expect them to tell us either way so this does not surprise me at all. Glad to see you enjoyed your trip.

Hey did everyone notice that Liz's straps on her red dress made 2 V's one on each should and when she turns around at the end to walk out of the room a HUGE V on Back of her dress?

Nemo nice pic posts with symbols but I have no intelligent guesses as to what they mean.

Max was wearing a diamond filled tie in VLV also.

I think that Ava (and the NY4 generally) were very like their alien selves. Which means that Ava (not Tess) was the Bride of King Max, who "loved her very much".

My theory is that Ava was once "the smallest of small town" bug-eyed monsters. Max loved both Ava, and Liz, because they're both "his type", if you see what I mean. A guy who likes Liz, would also like Mary Ann, and also Zelda Gilroy.

BTW, about the M/L wedding flash: Can't we just have a spooky psychic flash, for no "rational" reason? As if Someone Out There likes Max&Liz together?

Ha! No, but I've been thinking about Roswell-inspired bed linens... As someone pointed out the bedspread fabric was batik. (Perhaps that was you, MM!) So I've been thinking, wouldn't it be fun to make a batik quilt with Roswell symbols on it?! Batiks are popular in quilting these days anyway.

Don't some of you quilt? Since I only joined the group in November I've only caught passing references to quilting here and have never noticed who made them. FESS UP! Who quilts, have you ever quilted the symbols and most importantly, will you SHARE?

Zara

Yes, I completely agree with you! It's so exciting when we do see things about Liz' metamorphosis, but they haven't been flashy things of late. (Mostly awareness that she needs to GROW...) I did like it in HTOHL when Tess, Is and Max are trying to fry the crystals with their podster whammy and Tess told Liz "You're welcome to try..." I thought, YEAH! TRY!

I actually posted a longish thing about Liz' hop to NY when we were discussing MITC. While I guess it was a mind warp, I see it more as an ability to travel, not unlike Larek using a surrogate to speak to the podsters over such great distance. Only Liz doesn't need a surrogate to do it! Also, since we think the granolith is related to travel (among other things), Liz' ability to "travel" may be further indication that she is the key to the granolith.

I think what I said back then about Liz' traveling was "Look, ma, no granolith" or better yet, "Look ma, I'm a granolith!"

Sure, why not?

StarBox Thanks for posting the behind-the-scenes reason for the flash as FMax's memories transferring. I have to ask if they're going to follow that up, and also that if some of his memories transferred, why weren't they the important ones???? Like his trip back in time to get Liz to fall out of love with himself! Arrgh! Although, if TPTB do follow up on that idea, it would be a neat way of getting Max to know the truth without Liz compromising her integrity by saying something. I know, I was screaming at the TV too, but I really don't want her to tell him b/c that's just not Liz.

Zero So you're JK now, eh?

Alexis the updated list, BTW. Also, good point about M&L being the first to enter the hotel suite, like a royal couple, and holding hands in a V shape. I was too happy that they were holding hands to notice the shape!

Melodious Oh good you did post about Michael's dream. Did anyone else get the creeps b/c in Michael's dream, Max says they need a plan just before he disappears, and then when Michael goes to Max's and tells him they're going away, Max says that they need a plan. I got shivers! Course, it could just be b/c even in his dreams Michael knows how anal-retentive Max can be!

huggybear I'm enjoying the souls discussion

As a side note, I LOVED VLV
~Tas

Ok.this is very confusing to me.From Tess get her comprehesion about destiny?
Maybe Im miss something?

sry.gram.

Anyway, got my pictures back today. I can't wait until I get them digitized this weekend.

Also - other things about the party.

I won Courtney's skins...
I talked with Aaron (writer) and he has read this thread, although he may not be a regular lurker. He said he likes the MOB and ORBs thread. Ours might move a bit fast. He says he wishs he could come in and post and he also joked that sometimes the posters (not nec the RBI) are ten episodes ahead of the writers direction.

I also asked KKB if he was familiar with the theory of two shapeshifters and I wasn't surprised when he said, "No."

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
...I won Courtney's skins...

...I also asked KKB if he was familiar with the theory of two shapeshifters and I wasn't surprised when he said, "No." Ewww, Qfanny, Skins?
***Actually, if it's the face, pretty cool ***
Not blue crystals? How much $$$ did the crystals go for?

So what did he think about the theory of the 2 shapeshifters? Or didn't you get a chance to find out?

quote:Originally posted by Zara:
...I think what I said back then about Liz' traveling was "Look, ma, no granolith" or better yet, "Look ma, I'm a granolith!" I missed that one!

You might not be the one who is lost. I guess I have to go back and re-watch MITC. Maybe I just assumed that it was only Rath and Lonnie that the alien-sex reference referred to.

I have same toughts.
Maybe book is Tess assignment but it's not Max and Iz destiny.

huggybehr I am with you on the soul being "the spark of life" so the Dupes must have souls since they are human, hybridized humans, but humans just the same. I guess what I was trying to say was that I do believe that all the hybrids we have come to know, The Royal Four and the Dupes, must have souls in my opinion, but the Royal 4 seem to use the it to their advantage and embrace their humanity and thus, their soulsThey feel, they weigh the consequences of their actions, they hurt, they love. The Dupes seem to want to cast their humanity aside. They seem to be denying themselves what the soul has to offer. Ava and Zan seem to embrace their humanity a little more than Lonnie and Rath though. I know all humans have souls even though we do not all act very well at all times. At the times when we do not listen to our hearts, I feel we are denying our soul. I know this can be a little deep. I was commenting on the Dupes, mainly Lonnie and Rath, not having souls only because they seem to deny their humanity. I believe they, and of course the Royal Four, must have souls if they are human. I know I went off in this post, but I wanted to make sure I was getting my point across. Did that help? Hope so.

My theory is that Ava was once "the smallest of small town" bug-eyed monsters. Max loved both Ava, and Liz, because they're both "his type", if you see what I mean.

Hey Reggie, if that is the case, then why did Ava have the feeling that Zan was always waiting for someone else to walk into his life? I don't think Liz has ever felt that from Max.

Someone asked about the picture of Max and Liz in his wallet (sorry it isn’t very clear):

You judge for yourself if it is them!

Nemo - I always love your posts - you havesuch a brilliant eye for symbols/detail.

QFanny - glad you had such a great time!!!!

I have an insanely busy week - so I may not be posting too much - I will be reading twice a day though!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Now, this could be a writer using a phrase over again because they use this term a lot in their own life (it happens believe me) but it could mean something else. Hmmmmmmm. Is there any other place where this term was used?

I think what I said back then about Liz' traveling was "Look, ma, no granolith" or better yet, "Look ma, I'm a granolith!"

Which, of course, also makes me wonder WHEN we'll meet Serena - or have we already!?!

1)It was cute to open the epi with Maria recapping the season in classroom style! To whom was she explaining the story? Just us? She begins by saying that things have been confusing lately and that the only person who's going to get us there is HER! It felt like she was recapping the tale as past tense, although I realize her look was current.

2) Michael's dream: The phrase from the dream that recurred through the episode was "we need a plan." It will be interesting to see if that plays out in further episodes. It's interesting to look at the dream - are there "clues" about the podsters there or just "clues" about Michael's psyche? Even if we just look at the dream as Michael's subconscious problem-solving there are still some interesting messages there:

a. Max betrays Michael in the dream by disappearing when shootists arrive

b. Max tells Michael to face the demon - Michael turns to see five shootists. (There are five humans who know his secret.) The shootists in the dream are of varying height, one is featured: shorter than most of the others and with very round eyes. I think it's Liz. (Ducking and running for cover...)

Okay, it's a dream after all; this is all in Michael's head. It's not saying that Liz is really going to kill him... It's just that perhaps Michael fears the humans and sees them, especially Liz, as a threat. That makes some degree of sense when you think about Michael's isolation and total reliance on Isabel and Max for community.

So what demon is Michael supposted to face? His unwillingness to trust the humans? His issues with Max over leadership and fidelity? And will they get a plan?

FUN!

But it wouldn't explain why Isabel didn't trust Liz at first (sorry if this was already mentioned! I jumped from p1 to p8), after all isabel fell in love with Khivar and she betrayed her family.

It would explain Edsedo's reaction to LIz in the chamber, saying how she doesn't belong there. But if she didn't belong there, I keep asking myself, why did he save her from the house of mirrors? If he had gone through with his original plan, Max would be safe, but where would LIz be? Would she be in the hands of the FBI also? Did Edsedo know that she would and could be captured too, so that's why he saved her?

I love this thread, but I am also disappointed when I come here! I love all of you and your theories, but something tells me that the writers aren't that creative and won't ever explain such storylines! So I am a little disappointed.

But, also I have a few theories...

What if (this one is a little out there) but since Tess is so important to the R4, what if the granolith requries BOTH Liz and Tess? What if Tess is supposed to teach her how to use her powers to unlock the powers or if Liz and Tess together need to connect in order to activate it? Then in order to FULLY activate it powers, do they need LIz and Tess OR LIz and Max holding hands and touching the granolith with the remaining three in a closed circle around them? Do you see where I am trying to go? Or should I just shut up? Well thanks for listening!

PM me if you want the link to MY web site or to my fanfic The Granolith Keeper (it isn't done but I have a lot written)

Kyrie

Dreamgirl102—interesting theories! I am impressed !

ALexis - Thanks for posting the picture! The hair color on the girl will tell us if it is Iz or Liz - but I can't tell from the picture. I haven't been able to rewatch the episode yet - but will focus on some of the things that you all have so brilliantly brought up so far!

Micheal's dream now takes on a whole new interest!

Now that we know people sometimes lurk - thanks for the info Qfanny! - we should never feel embarrassed about a theory. It my just give someone a great idea to take to the writers!

See you all later!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

Zero: How could anyone think that you are JK? If you were JK Liz/Shiri would have a lot more screen time, we would have continuity and you would have hired some of us as writers and researchers for the show. Isn't that right Zero?

Qfanny: Welcome back. It's sounds like you had a wonderful time. So you won the skins, did they dissolve when you touched them? Did you meet any of the actors?

Did any of you notice that Liz was the only one who had a "Virgin" drink name, Shirley Temple? Add another to my Virgin Mary theory.

I'm going to watch VLV for the thrid time and look for clues, so far I have been to busy rewatching Max and Liz. My Dreamer heart always comes first.

Evid

Yes but, I wonder if Ava's leaving had more of an ajenda than just avoiding Lonnie & Rath... the strange look (awe-filled/fearful?) she gives Liz, when Liz tells her Max brought her back; her knowledge that Liz "is different now" (enough so that she can contact Max across the country and the other Podsters can't), yet her insistence that they "don't have time to get into that[Liz's difference] right now"; and then her leaving without further explanation re:Liz and her comment about 'knowing what she has to do'... like I said, it seems there's more to it than evading the wrath of other the dupes IMO -- and how would the dupes even know the failed attempt at killing Max could be traced back to her? Liz was the one who 'projected' herself to Max, not to the city.

quote:Also - I too wonder why we haven't seen Liz use or at least explore her powers (like Kyle attempting to control the TV ) in some way! I would be! But again - another loose end.

I agree!!! I'm anxiously awaiting when the writers will clue in and explore this area-- the possibilities are huge!

Zara and Melodius: 'd the interpretation of Michael's dream. I haven't even seen the episode yet and just reading your posts gave me shivers!

Alexis: I can't remember of the top of my head re:hearing the "I'm done" comment in other episodes, but it is possible this comment does have a deeper meaning... I noticed the repetitive comment of "things change" mentioned by Lonnie (MTD), Isabel (MTD), and other characters in following episodes (which I'm afraid escapes me at the moment)...

Which reminds me, did anyone else notice the similarity between the comments Lonnie and Rath made (when breaking into the Evans') and the ones Isabel and Michael uttered during their breaking into the Pinecrest Psychiatric Hospital?

Lonnie: Can you imagine actually living here?
Rath: No! I'd kill myself.

Isabel: Can you imagine being locked up in a place like this?
Michael: This would suck big

Shapeshifter: thank you for offering to get me a copy of VLV! You're a Godsend! Please PM me so we can work out the details.

I have to go for now, but I'll be back later.

But it wouldn't explain why Isabel didn't trust Liz at first (sorry if this was already mentioned! I jumped from p1 to p8), after all isabel fell in love with Khivar and she betrayed her family.

I'm going to run with this a bit, I'm intrigued by this idea.

If Liz is possibly Kivar's sister, perhaps Isabel didn't "trust" Liz (and Michael didn't trust her either) because on some level, early on, the two of them could sense "what"/"who" she is, however, this has faded somewhat over time. After all, Liz IS only human.

Isabel's "distrust" coming from perhaps Kivar's relationship with his sister. Maybe Kivar and sis didn't get along? Sis didn't like Kivar's choice of "alien sex partner", hence made her "opposition" of his choice very clear? Perhaps Kivar's sis' beliefs were more similar to that of King protoMax's (hence, there's much more opposition between bro and sis then just bro's choice of "mate")? Which would definitely be interesting imo. Even more interesting if Kivar's sis was already married in that lifetime... HENCE, if Liz IS Kivar's sister, Liz could ALSO have a "destined mate" out there somewhere. Although granted, that's a bit much. he he

Michael's "distrust" coming from what he can possibly sense Liz *is* (ahem, *possibly is*) on some level. He "recognizes" her. Since it seems the theme of *strong memories spill over to other lifetimes (even dimensions)* is reoccuring of late. Perhaps protoMichael had such strong memories of protoLiz (these memories possibly aren't *good* memories)... none of them trusted her (and still seemingly have difficulty with trust).

Ditto for Max... he also recognized Kivar's sister (hence getting of the bus in kindergarten / first grade [?] etc etc). However, protoMax's "relationship" with protoLiz was different somehow? Maybe the past they weren't in love, but just strong allies, friends? In this lifetime, however, .

Perhaps it's in THIS lifetime they can trust Kivar's sister and this will eventually lead them (the Royals) to victory? Something, if they had been able to do it in the last one, they wouldn't have been killed?

This might also be tagged along with the theories on there being *five* individuals in the Pod Squad (Royals, whatever) in this story... not just *four*.

1. King Max
2. Princess Isabel
3. (Prince?) Michael
4. Queen / Princess Tess
5. (Skin) Princess Liz

The fifth, Kivar's sister (Liz), being the key because she unites the current "warring faction" with the rest of the Royals?

Granted, there are probably other (numerous) factors which I'm probably leaving out, but that's the best I can do in 10 minutes before I have to run for a lunch date

Melodious

BTW, this image is made by Provence from theDDD.com.

[b]Zero: How could anyone think that you are JK? If you were JK Liz/Shiri would have a lot more screen time, we would have continuity and you would have hired some of us as writers and researchers for the show. Isn't that right Zero?

Did any of you notice that Liz was the only one who had a "Virgin" drink name, Shirley Temple? Add another to my Virgin Mary theory.

Evid [/B]

"OMG - It's an Earthquake!" That's Zero reacting to recent events! Fortunately, we came through it fine!

Evid - Right On! You know you would all be hired as consultants, and the ratings would be cosmic!

Also, I did notice that she was the only Non-alcohol drink, but never thought about the "virgin" connection!! Love it!!

Wishful Thinking - ITA with you about Ava leaving - that there is more to it. Though who knows if the writers will ever fill us in, or this will be another of those loose ends never tied up. (A little cynisim there! )

The Liz as Khivar's sister is an interesting theory with lots of possibilities. Melodious - I like how you expand on it. Ummm.... I don't the writers are going to go there though - unless we get a 3rd season??

Finally, I hope the picture in Max's wallet is of him and Liz! The dreamer in me will never die!! It's a soulful thing!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

ZERO - there is a gut that posted there that saw your intro and thinks your JK posting anonomously about Liz being the main focus of the show.

Hey "Zero" -
This series needs a science consultant. Shall I send you my resume? Or should I put my name in as a writer, in case there's a strike? I've been reading SF all my life, so no one would be able to trace where I was getting the ideas.

sry.gram.

No, it's a different ability. Tess can create illusions, but they are no more than that. She knows it's not real. Liz can make "where she is" to be at a different location than the one her body is at. It's called "astral projection", and it's popular in "Eastern" religions. It's like becoming a ghost for a while, then returning to your live body. She can see what she would if she was really there, etc.

First off, I would just like to ask why haven't the Mods shut down that stupid spoiler thread that popped up on Ros 1?

Ok...about the pic in Max's wallet...I think it is Liz. She is way too short to be Isabel! (sorry, my wishful thinking)

Also, I loved VLV...more stuff jumped out at me the second viewing (ie, Alex's heart connection, and the mistake on the Elvis Chapel poster--it said 'A' Elvis Chapel, instead of 'An' Elvis Chapel!) I wasn't going to mention that because it sounds a little grammar freak, but I saw a few posts about it earlier and thought I would toss it in. (for it to be grammatically correct, it should say "An Elvis Chapel", and, FMax said "AN Elvis Chapel") Just a little food for thought!

Val

Thanks, Reggie! I didn't know the proper term for it...

Or maybe TicTac knew how much Liz meant to Max so he hid her on the ship, but never told Harding, who probably didn't find out about her until later. So Harding thinks its bad news to have Khivar's sister among the royal four, and then him and TicTac get into it; one goes to NY and the other stays with the royal four. But then Harding is like "this getting too close for comfort the skins are getting closer to the real royal four" So he shows up in Roswell fully knowing that Max's real bride is Khivar's sister, Liz, but tells him otherwise, because he thinks that it maybe for the best.

Okay I'm really not trying to write a whole episode here.

And isn't one of the Roswell books called "The Dark One", and it's about Liz turning evil. What if Liz can't take no more of Max/Tess so she joins her brother's side?

I think you are confused because Liz did not turn evil in any of the books. There is someone evil but I don't want to give it away. It's not Liz!

Anyways about Michael's dream... I also thought it was their deaths from Future Max's descrption. It was very creepy!! It's interesting how MAX got the flash of their wedding when we all thought it was Liz's fantasy. I wish the writers would clean up those lose ends on the air instead of telling us about it off-air.

sry.gram.

No, I don't think you are naive. I've actually been running that train of thought through my head for some time, too.

QFanny - thanks for the postcard! It came today :-)

Reggie - I meant to comment on your post on "types" - I will say that all the "significanty others" in my life have been totally different "types". I think it is rare that a person simply falls in loove with a "type" of person - it is just so much deeper and more mysterious than that :-)
And most of the time when someone DOES swear they have a "type" - they end up marrying someone TOTALLY different than what they assumed they would choose.
Just ramblings.

And - a FYI - I am giving up the evil (and I do mean evil - I think there are people there deliberately trying to destroy the show) spoiler boards for Lent. So - from this point on I shall be spoiler free.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I'm going to watch VLV for the thrid time and look for clues, so far I have been to busy rewatching Max and Liz. My Dreamer heart always comes first.

Evid

Actually, a "Rob Roy" is a boy's version of a Shirley Temple--it is almost exactly the same drink (more grenadine I think so it's redder), and it is also non-alcoholic. I've been thinking for a long time that it isn't only Liz's virginity that's important, but also Max's. The drinks could point to that too As well as M&L being the straight-laced people and having the non-alcoholic drink names, of course!
~Tas

quote:Originally posted by Valkyre:
...the mistake on the Elvis Chapel poster--it said 'A' Elvis Chapel, instead of 'An' Elvis Chapel!) I wasn't going to mention that because it sounds a little grammar freak...Me too!

be back later

StarBox Good for you! That's exactly why I unspoiled too--it's very depressing over there even when there's good news. Besides, I do enjoy the eps more with only knowing snippets

Sorry, I can't recall who analyzed Michael's dream, but good job! I see you noticed the repetition of "We need a plan" also. I think that's significant, esp. since it's something that Liz usually says as well as Max.

Qfanny Can't wait to see some of your digitized pics!!
~Tas

I'm going to have to watch Michael's nightmare again.

And I was wondering about Liz's necklace, too, but I can't tell at all what it is.
A stagecoach??

Enjoyed all your comments as usual.

First off I want to thank QFanny for her postcard, which I got today! I'm actually going to PM you about something else -- so you'll be hearing from me...

OK...my take on Michael's dream. Now remember I'm the one who did the psychoanalysis on Tess....so this is more of the same!

Humans typically dream about things that are troubling them in their subconscious. Lately, I have been viewing the podsters as almost more human than alien. They are hybrids, correct? However, their powers are advanced human powers, and as far as I can tell except for their blood cells, ability to use more of their brain than normal humans, most of what they have going on is -- gasp -- human!

That said, Michael's dream is very obvious to me.

It starts off with them running from masked enemies.
* Not knowing who their enemies are

Michael is sweating profusely, Max is not
* Michael fearing that he will be the only ones out of the podsters who won't be able to fulfill their roles here on earth. ie: this passage from skin and bones

MICHAEL: Yeah. I've told myself all those things, but I still killed a man. And the thing that I keep thinking about is that what happened is just the tip of the iceberg. I've been trying to prepare myself for what's about to go down, and I have no idea what to do. I'm cracking rocks. I have no clue who or what we're up against. And I've been so pissed off at Max for not leading, but he doesn't know any more than I do. None of us do. We're all in the dark waiting to be attacked, and all I can think about is what if I'm not strong enough?

MICHAEL: You're our leader. Why don't you lead us?

Which brings me quite nicely into the next part of the dream about needing a plan. Michael has been wanting Max to take control of the situation ever since they found out he was the 'leader' but neither of them are capable of making a plan because they never know who/what/when/where/why they are up against!

Max disappears, leaving Michael alone to face the attackers....
* well, that one seems pretty straight forward to me. I think secretly, way down deep inside his misguided heart, Michael is afraid of being left alone. Ain't that sweet?

They shoot him...
* also, psychology 101, the boy was just recently shot. Post traumatic stress syndrome anyone?

Anyway, I wish I could agree with you all that Michael's dream was some sort of temperal fold memory like the wedding blip, but I just don't buy it, sadly. It seems pretty straightforward to me.

That said, and speaking about FM creating these temporal folds that allow memories from the other future to come through to their present.... Think about that for a second. If that memory can come through, what else about that alternate future can possibly come through as well...

OH THE POSSIBILITIES.....writers, are you listening?????

Anyhow, those are my thoughts for the moment.

Smiles,
{~}:}

~Tas

Metaphysicalgrl, I think the PTS disordered nightmares could be enhanced by time-fold memories, or even recovered memories (from the war on Twilo/Antar). And the PTS could even bring those memories to the surface, i.e., wouldn't the same parts of the brain and/or electrochemical activity occur with the PTS of the gun shot and the memories of similar scary events in the past or past-future? Or do you have to be Obsessive Compulsive to have things triggered that way in your brain? (for me it's 'normal' )

Metaphysicalgrl, I think the PTS disordered nightmares could be enhanced by time-fold memories, or even recovered memories (from the war on Twilo/Antar). And the PTS could even bring those memories to the surface, i.e., wouldn't the same parts of the brain and/or electrochemical activity occur with the PTS of the gun shot and the memories of similar scary events in the past or past-future? Or do you have to be Obsessive Compulsive to have things triggered that way in your brain? (for me it's 'normal' )

[/B][/QUOTE]

Could be...but I'm still not buying that it had anything to do with the time-fold memories. I see the similarities between the dream and the explanation of what happened in their future, but I just don't think those memories would manifest themselves in a dream, like they did with Michael. Also, does anyone have access to these memories, or would it just be Max and Liz, as those were the two directly effected by the phenomenon? Yeah, something about it just isn't gonna do it for me...this time.

You know, sometimes when you see something on the show and it just hits you a certain way, and no amount of explaining and reasoning can sway you from your original impressions? I think this might be one of those things for me. The first time I saw VLV I understood Michael's dream implicitly (well, at least implicitly in my own head) so I'm sticking with it.

However, I still think that this whole time-fold memory thing does open up a lot of potential interesting plot devices, if the writers should choose to go that way. So many things have been left dangling for us, already, though...like Liz's newfound powers!

I'm sorry, but if you woke up to find out you suddenly were 'changed' and had these alien powers, wouldn't you be practicing them, and using them, and talking about them to anyone who would listen? (those that you could talk to about it anyway)...

Sigh...will we ever have the answers we seek?

{~}:}

STAGECOACH-wasn't there a stagecoach in HARVEST?

Onto the Mything.... I don't know if this was already brought up in here, I didn't see it. However, did any of you get a strange dejavu feeling from Michael's nightmare at the beginning of the eppy? It seemed quite reminiscent of Future Max's description of the events that happened just before FM went back in time. Isabel is "gone" (already dead?), Michael has JUST been killed and Max is the only one left (even though he disappeared in Mike's nightmare). Of course, in Future Max's description, Michael died in Max's arms... definite difference. Just a coincidence, my paranoia or might I have something here?

I also thought I'd bring it up do to the above explanation of why Max had that wedding attire "vision". If some memories were SO strong for Future Max they caused this sort of loop.... perhaps Michael's nightmare was also caused by this loop somehow? Michael was somehow "remembering" being killed (more or less)? Although some things, like location, clothing, etc... were different? Future Michael's "memories" taking on their own interpretation in 2001 Michael's mind?

Melodious

[/B]

Hey everyone, this is my first time posting on this thread but I have been reading it followiing it for a little while and find it so interesting.

Melodious-- I am so glad you brought this up, I felt the same way about Michael's dream. When I saw Max and Michael being chased (and only Max and Michael, not Isabel - who is "gone" according to Max, and not Tess, who wasn't even mentioned) I immediately thought of EOTW. Except, at first, I thought it was Liz's dream, representing her anger and bitterness at not being able to tell Max the truth, and I thought this was going to lead to her telling Max about FMax, finally.

About the wedding vision, I found the discussions about memories, and time loops to be very interesting. But when I first saw the episode, I thought it could have been Liz sub-consciously sending Max the flash. Think about it, (I'm not entirely sure) but wasn't the first time Liz noticed the Elvis Chapel sign right before Max told her he was leaving? This was also the reason Liz didn't want to come to Las Vegas in the first place. And something that has been bothering me about that sign- someone already mentioned that it said 'A Elvis Chapel' instead of 'An', what I first thought of when I saw this in the episode was: shouldn't it say 'THE Elvis Chapel'? anyway, feel free to ignore that, I'm starting to feel a little out of it.

About the wedding vision, ...when I first saw the episode, I thought it could have been Liz sub-consciously sending Max the flash. ...Me too. Now that I've settled down from the dance scene , I think that was one clue that was truly intended. So, assuming it was, I think it gives support to the time fold theory. But it doesn't have to be one-or-the-other; I think Liz could have jarred his memory with her own. And if that was what was intended, well, all I can say is that the show does not deserve to be cancelled! ***sigh*** quote:Originally posted by FMan608:
...that it said 'A Elvis Chapel' instead of 'An', what I first thought of when I saw this in the episode was: shouldn't it say 'THE Elvis Chapel'?
Another one that really stood out -- So why the generica "a" (or "an" if it was a typo) instead of "The?" Maybe just for humorous syntax.

Tasyfa, thanks for the info. re. the Rob Roy. I wonder if that is significant given Nasedo's insistence on Max and Tess 'mating'. Whoever Max bonds with in this lifetime will be 'the one' hence the use of the term 'cemented' in future Max's timeline.

huggybehr Thx for noticing the Rob Roy=non-alcoholic too. I do think it's important that M&L were both given the names of virgin drinks--just not sure how yet

Ugh--now I have to get ready for work I'll have the screencap of Liz's necklace for you tonight
~Tas

Valkyre—I noticed that grammatical error on the Elvis Chapel sign as well. I agree with Fman608 that it should say “The Elvis Chapel.” There isn’t more than one is there?

Fman608—Liz noticed the “Elvis Chapel” sign while she was talking to Tess about knowing this trip would be the most miserable of her life.

The “A” is an “A” not a picture. But there is a picture of a couple getting married, which is whiter than the rest of the poster. Take a look:

Thanks Tasyfa for that info on the ROB ROY drink I didn't know that---but you said the drink is REDDER?(redder is that a word-not!)Did you notice Max said that Las Vegas made his SKIN crawl hmmmmmmm.

I too noticed A ELVIS CHAPEL-seemed deliberate somehow what it means I don't know.

I am sure there was a clue when Michael gave the 5 dollar bill for the coffee--with Abe Lincoln on it--or somewhere in that scene is a clue because we also focused on the tips---NEMO help us out LOL?

Interesting all the discussion about Michaels dream, not sure exactly what to make of it yet but I just hope that everything Liz has done has not been in vain and that this dream is foreshadowing some future event--in other words that what Liz in fact did HASN't changed anything---or maybe things are WORSE NOW? Just something to think about.

Oh on the cab Max was about to get in did you notice the sign 4 for the price of 1????
What is the message here if any---sacrifice of 1 for the 4? or are they just featuring these numbers again, an ongoing theme throughout?

A Elvis Chapel
B Elvis Chapel
C Elvis Chapel
D Elvis Chapel
.
.
.

Mods, if Zero isn't back from the EARTHQUAKE in SEATTLE by 4pm today, I will start the new one (she sent me the intro before going to Vegas because she seemed to have a premonition that it might be necessary -- how intuitive is that???) SO DON'T CLOSE THE THREAD TIL EITHER ZERO OR SHAPESHIFTER STARTS THE NEW ONE PLEASE, THANK YOU.

Just thought I would throw that out there for a little clarification....of course, we could always go into the Vegas yellow pages and check!

Could it simply be that if the show used The instead of A there would have been some sort of business-name-copyright-infringement? Thus TPTB would have to compensate the actual business in some way (or at the very least get permission to use thier name, which would require some amount of paperwork, time... = money).

The good news is that I read an interview with JK and he said that he read the FIRST Roswell book, but that was it - no more ideas from any of the others. Also, how much Max/T have we REALLY seen (thank gawd )??

Just thought I would throw that out there for a little clarification....of course, we could always go into the Vegas yellow pages and check!

[/B]

Hey! You aren't from Boston, are you? They're running the same contest here, but I don't remember them saying anything about A Elvis Chapel OR THE Elvis Chapel - just Bon Jovi being there to sing at it

I have to say I don't think the "A" has anything to do with anything. If the "we have to get rid of her" line was simply improv (as we all speculated it was some deep, underlying meaning), then I just CAN'T see TPTB using this simple "A" thing as a "something important". Then again - could be my pessimistic side coming in after the lack of continuity these days!!

Zara, about the Elvis Chapel, I was wondering the same thing -- are Elvis Chapels as plentiful in Vegas as movie rooms in a mall, so that labels A/B/C/D are needed to identify them? Maybe the writers are spoofing the Elvis Chapel phenomenon, likening it to a factory or an army (A company, B company, etc).

GraceKel: Yes, I did notice Liz's dress. Did you think there was any significance to it being red also?? When Max & Liz enter the hotel room, to their left there are some flowers in the corner. They seem to be red & white roses (meaning unity). Are they??

Also, about the "4 for the price of 1" sign, maybe it refers to Liz's sacrifice for the 4 podsters. It is in the scene where Max sees part of what she sacrificed, but there could be a deeper meaning as well.

Great catches on the Shirley Temple and Rob Roy being virgin drinks!!! Liz and Max were both uncomfortable in Vegas because they have higher moral standards. I think another reference to Liz being pure of heart was when she couldn't lie to the security guard about her age.

Alexis: Those were wonderful lines from Superman. Sounds very much like Max & Liz's relationship to me!

One more thing, when Kyle and Alex are gambling there is a shot of the table that says "5 for 1". Now what could that mean, if anything?

Shapeshifter I sent you an email.

Metaphysical I like your psychoanalysis of Michael's dream. Yet, I'm thinking that both you and Zara are correct in your analyses... Michael's dream has duel meanings.

(I just know there's a word for this and it's on the tip of my tongue-- probably to stay there for all eternity )

Looks like it is time to start a new thread! Please take all further discussion over to Thread #32 - up in a couple of minutes!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!