The Hybrid Chronicles are over, and were interesting. While they really did not added a lot to the Liz Mythology connection, they still included clues that seemed to underline Liz’s importance to the Pod Squad, especially Max , and ultimately, the alien mythology! Also, “Viva Las Vegas” was heartwarming in many ways to all the Dreamers out there, and had that great Wedding Scene that is full of speculation re: How it occurred! Hopefully, I will incorporate the great thoughts out there soon!

Background

We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, season after season (a little optimism there about a Season 3! ), finding “clues” to Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology and other relevant topics – and there are a lot of them (WAY MORE than I can ever summarize here)! – and then developing theories and potential storylines based on these (often well hidden) clues! Shapeshifter and Qfanny have graciously agreed to set up a single link to the former threads that are available to read (if you have a week or two or three or four). You can find it at the following link http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology (but be patient, they will have thread #32 up in good time ) . Starbox does a wonderful job of posting pictures relevant to our discussions up front for reference! Thanks! Metaphysicalgirl has gathered questions to put to a Set Decorator/Designer/Prop Person from Roswell, since the set decoration, etc. seems so important to our analysis. Qfanny and another connection to the set are going to try and get us some answers! We hope they know of our appreciation! Metaphysicalgirl will continue to gather questions for future attempts, and as soon as we get some responses, we will post them!

Up-Date on our Questions: The list of questions was given to the on-site set director for the episode being filmed during the week of 2/19/2001. He was tickled that we were asking questions, and said that he has visited our thread and is very interested by some of our findings. (They are lurking out there!! ) He also wanted us to know that they usually don't have a lot of time to really plan the set for a TV show. They generally, only have a few weeks of prep-time. Once chosen, they have to use those designs pretty much throughout the duration of the show. Also a lot of the posters and stuff they use are donations they get from companies. They will use the posters that they think are cool and kind of work with the character. However, Brenden specifically asked for Metallic since he's a really big fan of them. Finally, the on-site set director said that he would give the questions to the head set director and have her answer them as well. He said that she'd get a kick out of it. Of course, now we have to be PATIENT – remember Patience is a virtue!! (THANKS! to our contact who provided me this information!! They know who they are!! )

The following is a LONG summary (oxymoron?) of some of the clues, thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I have been trying to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled; however, not all clues identified are listed or theories are covered in-depth (remember, I – Zero – am a mere human being with limited human brain capacity, so can only retain so many details).

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings – especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance! We are an up-beat and friendly – though seriously anal retentive – group! So – dive in, and join the fun!!

Liz is Important – The Liz/Max Connection

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions – or is it time zones? - recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz and felt a special connection to her. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all apparently due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that “connection” irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t totally let go of the connection. After events in NY, Max seems willing to give their Friendship another try, and in “A Roswell Christmas Carol,” his turning to Liz for help in his time of need, only confirms that even more. As Max says in the end – once Liz has helped him overcome his trial of conscience – he “believes in her!” In the Hybrid Chronicles it is obvious that Max still cares deeply for and worries about Liz, but is trying to respect her need to be kept out of “it.” But, once again – with the discovery of the Blue Goop – he has to turn to Liz for help. And as usual, Liz is the one to help move them to the solution to the problem. Though it was a team effort, they all looked to Liz for direction and guidance.

There is MORE to the Liz/Max connection than just a romantic relationship, as we have always assumed. She is his trusted advisory, his sound of reason, she is the yin to his yang (or is he the yin to her yang? ), and she helps him connect to his human side, finding that there is strength in his humanity! BUT - Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions regarding that connection have been answered this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Consequence of the Connection – the Change?

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz. We now know from the events in MITC that LIZ WAS CHANGED, and is developing powers, but how come?! How has that change come about? Whether the change in Liz was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Apparently Future Max knew Liz had the potential to “change” since he made the comment that she wasn’t letting it happen, but did he know the true potential of that change and what initiated it or prevented it from occurring? Is Liz’s “change” only a result of Max “bringing her back,” what Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply – or is there something more involved! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squad’s planet (Antar)? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? Could she be the “true bride” – only sent on a different ship to prevent easy discovery, with Tess serving as an unknowing dupe. But if so, and she is part alien, why did she disappear in Wipeout? She did cause the Skin’s shed skin to disintegrate, but that could have other reasons for occurring. Maybe she is purely human, but contains the “true bride’s” essence – but in a different configuration than the Hybrid pod squad?)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” and romanced a predecessor to Liz – but was called back to Antar, leaving his true love behind.
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. But, why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz? Could Tess/Ava be a ruse – as mentioned above - to protect the true queen, Liz, from being discovered before she has time to develop her powers that would protect her and her loved ones?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.) However, Liz is Max’s most trusted advisor, and the one most likely to keep him staying the course!
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies, such as the Key to operating the Granolith – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her? (If you watch “Buffy,” think of the storyline with Dawn as the Key be sought by Glory!)
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Antar? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Granolith and the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story? Ava had heard this story foretold during her previous life on Antar of a special human who would be brought back to life by their king, and would ultimately be the source of salvation for their world as well as her own?
· Could it just be Liz's extremely advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the MANY theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special all his human life – and he never connected with Ava the way one would have expected if she was his mate even though they had (we assume) spent their entire life on Earth – in the NYC sewers - together. I guess we will never know unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones (all 5 of them w/ Liz present) – anything is possible? We don’t know what happened to his body!) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her. (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?” [paraphrasing]) Liz looks directly at Max as he gets off the bus, with a sort of recognition. They obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were friends and lab partners more recently. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that we know are all human (according to Harding in WR). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking already – yet dormant – powers existing within her? Ava’s reaction to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle (Buddha Boy?), and all the kids in the hospital? There seems to be more to initiating the “change” than just the healing! Though Kyle may develop his own powers someday (though maybe changing TV channels is not one of them ), and so could the kids?

Origin of the Connection – Where is Liz from, really?

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins! A few of the common questions raised include:
· Are her parents her “true” birth parents or is Liz adopted like the Evans kids?
· Did Grandma Claudia have a relationship with an alien that passed something on to Liz?
· Does Liz have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race?
· Why does Liz look so much like Sheila Hubble?
· How does all this play into the connection with Max and Liz’s new found “abilities/powers”? (The first of her “powers” appearing to be astral projection.)
· Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur?

We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) There seems to be many clues that point to this possibility – but nothing definite. We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the Antar conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. These races could be of common decent, or there could be many variations. We know from White Room that the alien that was studied had a cerebral cortex similar to ours (humans), that did not have a bone structure like ours – thus, the shock that Max did. Could the similarities that the alien had be due to a common ancestor to humans – one that traveled to Earth many years ago either colonizing Earth or intermingling with the humans here. We don’t know for sure that the alien that was studied was a shapeshifter – we just assume it was, but it could have been another alien, different from the shapeshifters, that was on board the ship (or another ship that crashed.) We also know that the Skins (who are NOT Skins on Antar – only on Earth – so how did Nasedo know what they called themselves?) share powers common to the pod squad whose powers are all human. Why are these powers so similar if they don’t have a common ancestry? Does this mean that the beings that are Skins are from the same race of beings that the essences of the podsters are from? Will humans – like Liz – be able to eventually acquire some of these powers?

Rath sarcastically comments about how hard it is to travel through space to Earth – thus the need to possess humans long-distance – but the podsters obviously got here somehow (and fairly quickly if the comments concerning the warring for 50 years is correct - I will explain this if you don’t get what I mean – just ask) – so travel to and from Earth must be possible and not unreasonable from a time point of view. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ Antar predecessors from long ago? Could Liz and Max have a common ancestor – from long, long ago? (AND I’m not talking incest here – just a common ancestor like all humans do!)

Granolith – How does it fit in?

We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Whitaker and Courtney seemed to think it was a means to their salvation – but why? It is obviously of great importance! Could the Granolith be like a Holy Grail of the V constellation? The “Holy Grail” was meant to be found by a man with a pure heart who will use it to feed the hungry and heal the sick, and with it will bring peace and happiness to the land. So – whose heart is the purest in Roswell? Could it be Liz? The Granolith could be like Excalibur from the King Arthur tales, to be used as an instrument of the righteous, by a good man (or woman) for a good cause. So – who fits that description? Max? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? If it is only a transport system, I doubt they would have had such a concerned reaction – so there must be more to the Granolith than that. Some have speculated that it might be the energy source for a hidden ship – which it makes sense that a ship for return to Antar would be hidden “in plain sight” somewhere in the Roswell! But, I think it is more than a mere power source – though maybe a power source in the Grand sense of the term!

Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the prophesized protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Liz has yet to see the Granolith. Maybe it will react when she enters it. Maybe Liz holds something within her that is the key to the operation of the Granolith! Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time? Apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way before their discovery? So, many questions – still! … ! The speculation continues! Oh, AND Why hasn’t Max asked Liz point blank how she knew about the importance of the Granolith?! Umm…..

Destiny – Liz and Max!

Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess {I’m no longer going to use the snake sign for Tess since attending a Reptile seminar and learning Snakes are our friend! Anyone have a sign for a rat?}, many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his original “destiny” on Antar when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a “human” alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Many posters have wondered “Why?” send the Hybrid pod squad (in duplicate form) to Earth if there wasn’t some benefit to being Human and on Earth. Obviously, distance from their home planet was not one of the benefits. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction. Maybe she had “heard” the prophecy? (I am ignoring the cut scenes that Rooney posted that explained that the Dupe’s shapeshifter had warned that anyone they brought back would be changed, not necessarily for the better, because if it is not aired, it might not be the way the writers/producers have decided to take the show.) Zan’s “searching for someone” that Ava spoke briefly about, also seems to imply that he felt someone special was out there that he was meant to connect with – maybe Liz or Serena – I guess we will never know unless he is “brought back” somehow.

Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is a hot topic in the news right now with the publishing of the Genome Project! And is the pod squad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are (supposedly) “human” according to Harding. (I’m not going to get into it in this Intro – but the fact that the Skin’s powers are similar to the pod squads’ powers – which are advanced human powers – which are supposed to be similar to the powers they had on Antar seems to imply that humans must be capable of the these powers someday and have a common ancestor with the Skins and pod squaders in the distant past – Ummm …! )

Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters and her memory retrieval does not seem very complete! (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess :rat: , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time – though TPTB seem to be softening her character with the Kyle interaction!) Though the Dupes do seem to have memories of their past lives – at least Lonnie appears to - we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. Also, are the visions Max’s previous alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone (i.e., Tess, another shapeshifter) or somewhere (i.e., Granolith, Antar) else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! What else is stored deep within him, and can he get to the point he will be able to freely access and prevent having it MRd out of him? AND what is stored deep within Liz, waiting for the appropriate time to be released??

There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history “destined” to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the small amount of what we know of past podster actions. Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself in MITC - Zan was killed through treachery on Antar, then New Zan was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max (a Zan Hybrid) survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized, and Max has commented many times: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no?? Maybe they make their own destiny with a little help from their Human Friends!

Follow Your Heart

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons. Grandma Claudia told Liz to promise to always follow her heart wherever it leads her (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again (MITC and ARCC). He has even stated that he believes in Liz, and though this is meant more in a friendly way than a romantic way, it is a sign that Max is following his heart back to her! But Liz’s heart seems to be in a state of confusion with the introduction of Sean! But maybe, just maybe, her interactions with Sean will only convince her heart more than ever that Max is her true soulmate!

Symbolism – WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

The symbolism throughout the both seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! (WE love the Set Decorators! ) I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47, and prominently in the background at the Deluca Residence! Are Max and Liz the two diamonds hiding in plain sight? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often and everywhere (e.g., Valenti’s front door, Michael’s wallpaper).

We often look for “V”s, but as SweetJo noted - two “V”s make a diamond <>! Then Metaphyical took that another step – If you look at a diamond, which the Granolith definitely looks like, it is made up of many different V's. (See the picture of a diamond!) She then research octahedrons – which are 2 four-sided pyramides attached at the square bottom. If you connect 5 of these – you get the shape of the alien communicator! She then looked up Fluorite Octahedrons since they kept being mentioned, and it turned out they are used for Balancing!! Fluroite helps one to balance and stabilize the emotional, mental, and physical bodies. Isn’t it amazing what you learn here!!

Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! Liz could be the Trojan Horse in which something of great importance is hidden. There is a prominent picture of a Ship between Max and Maria when they are discussing his love for Liz. The old Scandinavian tale of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his score "The Flying Dutchman," symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love. In desperation the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful. Senta, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears that she will be faithful to the Dutchman unto death. However, in doing so, she betrays her fiancé Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she was trying to save. The Dutchman puts out to sea, but his vessel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned. HOWEVER - the pair are now seen RISING from the now-CALMED waters, TRANSFIGURED and REDEEMED by their SACRIFICE. Salvation is not a impossibly idealistic dream, but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality.

Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. Yvonne “White” was the nurse that disappears in Summer of ’47. And there is another White that shows up on the Silverhandprint site! Max lights a “white” pinecone in ARCC. The ancient Greeks and Assyrians viewed the pinecone as a symbol of masculinity because of its phallic shape, and it represented both fertility and immortality. As the emblem of Artemis, it represented feminine purity. It was also the emblem of the Roman goddess Venus. In Christianity, the pinecone forms the crown of the Tree of Life. Because of its swirling form, it is associated with dynamic generative and cosmic power. Here we see Venus is mentioned and also the Tree of Life (remember the women on the reservation told Liz that was what the symbol was on the necklace) also feminine purity seems to play an important role for Liz at this point. (Thanks Evid!) (And this is just the tip of the iceberg! We go on for pages about this stuff!)

Then there is the Dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. We were in the "year of the dragon." Here are some Dragon “meanings”:
· In the Chinese Horoscope, the Dragon is in the FIFTH ranking order.
· The Dragon's corresponding western sign is ARIES.
· The Dragon’s ruling planet is VENUS.
Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her (unless dragons have been popping up on other characters’ windows?). But since it was the year she discovers that she had “powers,” it is reasonable to think of her as being “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon … as the Dragon. (Thank You Meloudious 1, Starbox and Bluecornmoon, Charmed Kitten for your thoughts on the Dragon!)
Then there is the Arthur C. Clarke book, “Childhood’s End” that is found in “Four Squares” (Thanks reguru!). Following is a summary written by a reader on Amazon – a coincidence? “It is ...in this book the "Overlords" are a mysterious, powerful, but ultimately tragic group of beings that have vastly potent minds, but that cannot undergo the spiritual metamorphosis that would take them into direct communion with the sort of Godhead that directs their (and human) destiny. I liked Clarke's ideas about utopia, which is more or less what the Earth becomes after a few generations under the guidance of the Overlords. He seems to have had a lot of fun playing with ideas about future art forms, for example, among other things. However, this utopian society is doomed, because of an unforeseen, quantum leap in evolution, that turns out to be an evolution of the communal spirit. Clarke has a lot to say here about what connects us to each other, as human beings. Are we all linked with some higher being at the level of spirit, in the manner that islands would be revealed to be all linked, if one were to somehow drain the world's oceans? Or is striving toward a planned, ordered, social utopia, with allowances made for developing all of every individual's gifts to the fullest possible degree, the best way to relate to each other?...” Interesting??
Stars show up often, both the five-pointed and the six-pointed star. It turns out that the six-pointed star, which is often linked to Judaism, has many other meanings. In the Middle Ages, for example, alchemists used it to symbolize the "quintessence," and "quintessence" is another word for "fifth element."
Alchemists also believed that the symbol of two overlapping lines with four arms of equal length had special meaning. We see many variation of this symbol in Roswell – one being the four pods connected in the center. Alchemists believed while each arm stood for an element (earth, water, fire, air), the point at which the lines of they intersected represented the fifth element. From their point of view, the fifth element was basically the intangible thing that makes up a human soul. Remember when Max tells Liz in Destiny: "Knowing you has made me human." In certain branches of science the diagonal cross symbolizes crossbreeding (hybridization) between two species or races. It is sometimes associated with Christ, and in ancient Chinese, it stood for the number 5. (Thanks Czech Please!)

There are lots of other symbols and clues to pick up on! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent and clever for that!

The “Bride” – will the real one please stand up!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? OR could it be referring to Liz who was also standing right there? AND Why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day, and never acknowledged Tess as Max’s mate!) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride with Max in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. What if Tess was sent to deceive the enemy, and the Real Bride was sent in a separate ship – and somehow the Real Bride’s essence ultimately ended up in Liz.

Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts were needed to defeat the enemy. Maybe Tess is a warrior, led to believe she was the bride, when she really wasn’t. (Bad Boy Harding!!) And why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? Since their shapeshifter seemed to teach them so much, wouldn’t they have known the importance of keeping the unit together? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection previously or at the same time? They never mention seeing a Mom’ogram.) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was the Mom’ogram pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is Antar still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?) housing the heads of the allied forces?

The Books – WHY Doesn’t anyone read these things?

Concerns similar to those raised about the Mom’ogram have been raised about the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? And why do the pictures look just like our grown Roswell podsters and not their punkish Dupes? Did the Dupes receive a similar book? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the pod squad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Why does Max have writing on his forehead, but no one else does?

Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there is any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!) SCOOBY GANG - READ THE BOOKS! READ THE FILES! ASK MORE QUESTIONS!

Now we have Grandpa Dupree’s files and notes to add to the reference material they should all be reading and learning from! WHY AREN’T THEY!!??!!

The Catalyst – Liz!

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are re-watched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, connecting with Max to save his life in NY, coming up with the idea that helps Max restore his balance in ARCC, figuring out the Blue Goop is a parasite and determining that Kyle had killed the blue crystals by suffocating them, etc.). Liz is a Leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan. (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max “fall out of love with her.”) The Pod Squad would be no where without Liz!

Vision Quest – How does Liz fit in?

Liz could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we now know is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment. (Who knows who and what to believe on this one??) Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” or complement Max, and bring him into “balance”? Max seems to believe that Liz is his voice of reason, and knows him better than anyone else – even Iz! (We learn this from the JK and JB commentary on ARCC.) Could Liz possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence (combined with her connection with Max) mean that she has the potential to obtain more of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection, at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing (probably!), and how the visions play into her powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “projected” visions from Tess to get Iz’s attention for help). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps! ) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions from Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just “now” being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifters, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? The vision seems similar to that Liz gets in SH when she “sees” the orb being buried. Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Could his blurred vision be the result of testing he was subjected to, and the tic tacs pills that he takes to maintain his “balance”?

Time Travel – “Run, Lola, Run”

Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has it come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run” – which was mentioned in Surprise as the story of Liz’s life? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully due to the premature cementing, and the third being the path we are on now!) Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos? OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has from FM concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY, and that warning prevented him from turning it over to the other aliens - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max in particular!) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug Max – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed! Does he really “know” as Kyle seems to think Max always does? Why isn’t he asking Liz about her the source of her knowledge??

Hero Journey – Liz’s Path

[The following is a summary of what BehrAll pulled together on another thread, and I’m applying it to LIZ! I thank all who may have contributed to this originally, and apologize for not mentioning your name. I believe the bulk of the following was quoted from NyLoN? And that Czech please also contributed to the post.] The Hero's Journey is perhaps the most famous method of storytelling ever. First used by Homer, it was given 'shape' by Joseph Campbell in the 20th century. It has been the basis for many of the most famous and popular works of fiction.

The Hero's Journey is a series of stages that a heroine must go through during her adventure. The stages are flexible in that they are not clearly defined, and Campbell admits that one need not follow all the stages for it to be a true journey. The Hero's Journey (HJ) does not apply to an entire plotline, but rather to a character or several characters and their evolution throughout a series. In our case, we believe that Liz is in the process of the HJ. Following are the HJ stages with references of how it applies to Liz (which I added):
1. Call to Adventure - The heroine must first be forcibly drawn into the adventure, this occurs from a normal occurrence and not something strange or supernatural. Liz’s healing after being shot would be such an event.
2. Threshold Guardian - The heroine must face a minor obstacle that blocks her way to the adventure. Okay – there are more obstacles that Liz has faced than I can mention here, but being a small-town girl who is human may be the initial minor obstacle.
3. Wise and Helpful Guide - The inexperienced heroine must find a guide who will aid her with advice and materials that will be instrumental in her journey. I’m not sure who this could be – Grandma Claudia seems the obvious choice, but River Dog could be on too. But this goes along with my belief that someone is watching over Liz.
4. Into the Labyrinth - The heroine must step out into the unknown and the “den of evil.” Getting involved with Max was stepping into the unknown. Working to defeat the enemy is stepping into the “den of evil.”
5. Heroic Deeds - The heroine must engage in mortal combat, often sacrificing something or someone for the further good to continue her quest. Liz has faced death – think escape from the FBI Special Unit – and sacrificed her own “happy” future with Max in TEOTW for the greater good.
6. Trials - The midway point of the hero's journey is marked by a series of trials, ordeals, tests and obstacles.
7. Into the Belly of the Beast - A popular occurrence is the literal swallowing of the heroine by some great beast. This often marks the entrance to a mythical world where a great transformation occurs. However, in most works the belly of the beast is a metaphor for a stronghold of the enemy. Okay – Liz had to confront the Skins before disappearing, and there are probably other examples out there.
8. Sacrifices - The opening of the mind and heart of the heroine requires her be prepared to (or in some cases does) sacrifice something of great import to her. Okay, think TEOTW – need I say more???
9. Atonement - The hero's journey sometimes includes a "father (or mother?) quest." After many trials and ordeals, the heroine finds her father and becomes "at one" with him. (Note, occasionally this step is eliminated to create 13 stages.) Since we don’t know the circumstances of Liz’s birth, we assume that her dad is her true dad, but ….
10. Return - The heroine then returns to her home with newfound powers, knowledge or ability to benefit her people. Liz does have newfound powers, but … Maybe this is for Season 3??
11. Return of Evil - The heroine is not the only one who is reborn, the forces of evil also reform and come anew. Okay – this could happen numerous times over the course of Roswell!
12. Enchanted Forest - The inhabitants of the enchanted forest are strange creatures who can be both helpful and dangerous. The heroine must know how to get them to aid her on her quest. (Note, this is the second most likely step to be removed to create 13 stages.) Liz has already “befriended” Ava – definitely a “strange creature, and Ava added Liz’s quest to save Max. I would see Liz as instrumental in working with other creatures to seek their assistance.
13. Heart of Darkness - The heroine must enter the center of power for evil in order to destroy it or its' leader. This definitely could happen in future episodes! I can see her ability to see the evil within (if that proves true) coming in useful there.
14. Final Victory and Journey's End - In the end the heroine triumphs over evil and brings forth something new, be it enlightenment, power, understanding or a whole new society. Is there any doubt!!!

Liz’s relationship with Max is key in her journey, but it isn't the only issue she's dealing with (or needs to deal with!). The Hero's Journey can be physical or emotional. An emotional journey, such as usually occurs in a romance, takes the protagonist from her normal state of affairs and challenges her ideas, beliefs and current existence. A proactive protagonist responds to such challenges, undergoing tests of her moral fiber and emotional strength. Frequently she will have to examine all that she has believed to be true before a major confrontation. It is here that she pulls victory from disaster. And it is here that she seeks to return to normalcy. Many writers believe this is the end of the journey. But it isn't.
TEOTW as probably Liz’s "major confrontation" since it was her actions here that pulled "victory from disaster." The future was changed and (we assume) the events FM warned her of do not come to pass. At this point, she knows all she has gone through with (and for) Max has changed her, but believes that part of her life is over now. Liz is hoping that things can be relatively normal again, and has been trying to resume the life she had before Max. But as we all see, she will, of course, be unsuccessful.

The issue at the heart of Liz's HJ, the thing that she must overcome, is the myth of her own insignificance. She believes firmly in her ability to control her own destiny, but often dismisses the notion that she is any more than an obstacle to Max's journey. She's wrong, of course! In TEOTW, we learn that it is their love that damns them and those they care about. This is huge! Liz's romance, her emotional connection, determines the fate of the world. And ultimately, she is the one with the power to save everyone. Unfortunately, she doesn't recognize this power, only the fact that she will be alone now. Her journey isn't over yet.

Liz and Max's respective HJ's have intersected many times already, and we believe that they will eventually merge together. This is why many of us don't worry too much about their couple status. Most of us believe there is much more to Liz than we have seen and that her destiny is more important than she could possibly imagine. We believe things she has accepted at face value her whole life will be turned upside down. Her ultimate sacrifice will be the belief that she is normal. Once she accepts that she is no longer "the smallest of small town girls," she will need to accept entirely new perspectives and responsibilities. At that point, the HJ that has we've seen unfold on Roswell so far will be over and another phase in her life will begin.

Grandma Claudia – the first connection?

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her new and married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Perhaps GC helped them when she was younger, and they entrusted valuable information with her just as with River Dog. Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Norma Bates & Tasyfa contributed these thoughts! Soulmates are usually described as people being very alike in feelings and motivation. They work very well together for common goals. They have a connection of purpose and a similarity in thinking. Their skills complement each others so that together they accomplish more and are stronger/better than if they worked individually toward the same goal. But soulmates aren’t necessarily a permanent connection and they could be with several people. However, Lifebonds take "soulmate" one step further. Lifebonds are usually found in telepathic sci-fi (Kathy Tyers' "Firebird" for example) and fantasy genres. Before they can be lifebonded, they must be soulmates first. They are linked together mentally, emotionally and constantly. Lifebonds in fiction are rare and not taken lightly. They are a permanent one on one connection…till death do they part. The creation of a lifebond is a matter of choice. It doesn’t just happen. Authors sometimes use the theory that if a pair decides to lifebond, they spend some time apart first (so don’t worry Dreamers! ;grin: ), to strengthen and stretch the bond (to change the bond) and to contemplate on their choice. Both must agree and be fully committed to each other. There is no divorce option except death. Once that is done, the 2 open their connections to each other, mind and soul, to the fullest extent and then “cement” their relationship, making the bond permanent.

The drawbacks to life bonding includes:
· If they are separated from each other, they feel incomplete, not whole.
· Long term separation can lead to mental instability or insanity because one balances the other’s strengths and weaknesses emotionally and physically.
· If one of a bonded pair dies, it can cause a deep depression to the point of suicide. The remaining survivor has trouble adapting and balancing themselves.

Some things that lifebonds aren’t:
· They are not mind reading skills. They send strong impressions or emotions. Right now, if Max and Liz were lifebonded, he would know she was lying but not why unless she told him.
· They are still separate people capable of misunderstandings.
· Lifebonds cause a lot of stress and misunderstanding because they are so close emotionally, they forget to communicate verbally.
· Having secrets between a lifebonded pair causes a lot of frustration and pain between them.

Could what FM is talking about in TEOTW be a hint that, not knowing what they were doing, Liz and Max became lifebonded too soon? Liz wasn’t going to change or be able to lifebond to Max without first making a decision that she wanted to go ahead with the relationship. From Destiny until TEOTW she kept herself apart and tried to withdraw, but after seeing Madame Vivian she changed her mind and decided to take a chance…to start changing. Perhaps FM found out that Liz would develop her own powers if they hadn't become lifebonded and solidified the links so early. FM coming back and keeping her separated allowed the connections to grow stronger. Liz needed time to stretch the links, to change both physically and mentally, and taking Isabel's hand in MITC was only the first step of finding out whom she really is and what she is capable of doing.

Sheila Hubble – Eerie resemblance to Liz! – What’s the connection?

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the pod squad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with while in Florida?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. So, there is a connection to Liz. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Do you think the writers will introduce a character from Florida named Chad? Ummmmm? And what happened to Hal?? Don’t you think he would want to stay connected to the podsters now that he knows they exist?

Venus – Liz’s connection to the stars!

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Some new findings connecting to Venus include - Liz considers the smell of sulfur as “being home.” Venus has sulfur as a predominant chemical in its atmosphere. “The first time I walked into a chemistry lab and smelled that smell – the sulfur – I felt like I was home.” (Monsters) Is this part of an alien essence or past? (Thanks StarBox!) Also, Venus is hot and dry. Its atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas. Its upper atmosphere contains sulphuric acid. Venus rotates very slowly (once every 243 earth days) in the direction opposite to most of the other planets and opposite to the motion of all of the planets around the sun. Its solar day is 116 days long. Venus goes around the sun once every 225 days. StarBox, Bluecornmoon and Zara conducted the following analysis - 225 (245?) days after Feb. 20 (SH) was October 25, the day of the Gomez' concert (TEOTW). The next "mating" cycle for Max and Liz will be June 23rd, 2001! As for Liz and Max's "need" for each other - It's not time yet!

Numbers – It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! TEOTW occurs in 2014! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates? Next time you watch ARCC, notice the house addresses for Brody and the Ghost’s family, and it’s the 23rd Annual celebration. They all add up to 5! On the Silverhandprint, notice the crime report for Liz’s shooting. The Crashdowns address and the time of the shooting all include 2, 3 and 4s! Someone is sending us a message – maybe it is that we are all nutty!

Cave Map Symbols – All signs lead to Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together? See the discussion of lines and stars above!

The symbol on the necklace that leads to the cave looks like a yin/yang symbol. Audrey11 contributed the following - yin and yang have some references to things that have been discussed. This is a brief list of what they represent, mostly in reference to previous discussions.
Yin - conceived of as earth, female, present in even numbers, valleys and streams, represented by the tiger, the color orange and a broken line.
Yang - conceived of as heaven, male, present in odd numbers, mountains, represented by the dragon, the color azure and an unbroken line.
The concept of yin-yang in Chinese thought is associated with 5 elements: metal, wood, water, fire and earth, this idea lends substance to the characteristically Chinese belief in a cyclical theory of becoming and dissolution and an interdependence between the world of nature and human events.

Skins – What lies below the surface?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the pod squad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seemed to be confined to their husks, but they could be from the same race as the pod squad’s alien predecessors. Many of us think that the pod squad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without being noticed? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? How did the Skins – Nicko - find the Dupes? And could some of these earlier alien visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race or groups of aliens on Earth ? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Shapeshifters – Are there more than one?

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same. Maybe Tic Tac was the Dupes’ shapeshifter who came back to Roswell.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Recently with the discovery of Liz’s change, many have wondered why Harding didn’t know about the change and mention it. Especially after reading the cut scenes from MITC. If Ava knew, Harding should have known and mentioned it. Of course, there are the long lingering questions like: Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions, and his apparent failure to divulge information about Liz and the podsters’ origins. Was his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee”? And what did he do for all those years before Tess hatched? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Again, why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? Why did Harding have such a large collection of antiques, which he was so sensitive about? Had he been around when they were original manufactured – years ago? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Odds and Ends

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection. And who could miss Max grabbing Liz’s hand at mid-night mass and telling Liz, “I believe in you!” in ARCC!

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Dates

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across – PM me if you have one. I have added dates from the Silverhandprint site, but they don’t always jive with the episodes, so take them with a grain of salt.

1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1918 – Charles Dupree born
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1935 – Picture of Michael’s DNA donor, Charles Dupree (Hybrid Chronicle’s promo)
1936 - Charles Dupree, Mikey G's DNA donor, begins to be abducted by aliens
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
7/7/1947 – Privates Timothy Mann and Frank DiMuzio find Privates Bill Fifer and Jim McCarthy dead near crash site.
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
1949 – Special Agent Lewis recruited to run FBI Special Unit (Silverhandprint)
1950 – Agent Lewis mentions “butchers at Eagle Rock” to wife [think Eagle Rock Military Base] (Silverhandprint)
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in Delta, CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent DelBianco killed in Union City, TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior (UFO Convention)
9/13/1973 – Kathleen Ann Topolsky, future FBI agent, born in Hartford, Connecticut
1975 – Allister Topolsky born
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Agent McMahon, head of FBI Special Unit, killed (Silverhandprint)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
1983 – Michael’s birthday?
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
3 or 5/7/1983 – Tess’s birthday (I see a 5, others see 3?)(Tess, Lies and Videotapes)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? – Z]
1985 – Pohlman Ranch Excavation (Silverhandprint)
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1990 – Maria’s Dad leaves (Sexual Healing)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1992 – Charles Dupree (Laurie Dupree’s Granddad and Mikey G’s human DNA donor) committed for insanity (silverhandprint)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens from Boston Turnpike (gone 3 days) (silverhandprint)
1993 – Charles Dupree dies at the age of 75 (silverhandprint)
Fall 1993 – Topolsky graduates from U. of Hartford, w/ BA in Psychology
11/1993 – Topolsky’s brother Allister dies of Hodgkin’s Disease
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1997 – Topolsky graduates from U. of Michigan with PhD in Psychology
11/15/1997 – Date on Laurie Dupree’s Psychiatric Hospital Bag (We Are Family)
1999 - Agent Daniel Sommers, head of FBI Special Unit, killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17/1999 – At 3:52 pm Liz Parker is shot, and Max Evans saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!! (Sheriff’s Report – Silverhandprint)
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
9/27/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: arrival in Roswell (Silverhandprint)
9/28/1999 – Topolsky has first day at West Roswell High (Silverhandprint)
9/30/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: confiscated Sheriff’s files & Michael Guerin (Silverhandprint)
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds (Silverhandprint)
10/14/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Suzanne Duff – obviously close friends (Silverhandprint)
10/14/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: Future Week [think Profiles] (Silverhandprint)
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/27/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: Alex [Even Topolsky notices the “intense” connection between Max and Liz] (Silverhandprint)
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
10/28/1999 – Liz and Max search Kyle’s for the Journal, & Topolsky recognizes Michael’s artwork as Atherton’s geodesic dome (Silverhandprint)
11/4/1999 – 285 South Begins (Profiles - Silverhandprint)
11/5/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s (Profiles - Silverhandprint)
11/6/1999 – Topolsky orders a Casio Magic Wand (Silverhandprint)
11/9/1999 – Topolsky following pod squad to Atherton’s [Date not consistent with Profiles] (Silverhandprint)
11/11/1999 – Topolsky describes the incident at Atherton’s (Silverhandprint)
11/18/1999 – Max in car accident [think Blood Brothers] (Silverhandprint)
11/19/1999 – Topolsky’s final report (Silverhandprint)
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex wind up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max & Liz share their first kiss (Heatwave)
1/2000 – Frazier Woods SIghting
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/8/2000 – FBI Agent Daniel Pierce checks out item 87 kl stone form Special Unit vault (Silverhandprint)
4/8/2000 – Kathleen Topolsky checks out Orb Communicator from FBI Evidence Vault (Silverhandprint)
4/14/2000 – Fire brakes out at Bethesda Psychiatric Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, and Topolsky is listed as among the six patients killed (Silverhandprint)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/5/2000 – Rare alignment of Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Earth’s Moon and the Sun (4everyoung)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
7/2000 – Grant steals rifle from hunter in New Castle, Wyoming (Disturbing Behavior)
8/2000 – Grant steals oxygen tanks from hospice in Fort Collins, CO (Disturbing Behavior)
9/2000 – Grant steals plastic head box from industrial supply in Las Cruses, NM (DB)
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed Harding, the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/6/2001 – Special Agent Ragsdale writes Congressman White re: FBI Special Unit (Silverhandprint)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday (Surprise)
12/23/2000 – Max heals 5 kids in U of A Children’s Hospital (ARCC); exact time – 8:33 PM (silverprint)
12/24/2000 – Max attends Midnight Services, expressing his Belief in Liz (ARCC)
1/2001 – The Hybrid Chronicles Begin!
1/15/2001 (oops – silverhandprint made a mistake and had it as 1/15/2000) – Laurie Dupree escapes insane asylum Pine Crest Psychiatric Institute in Brownsfield, Texas – she was 16 years old when committed (silverhandprint)
2/2001 (oops – silverhandprint made a mistake and had it as 2/2000) – National Interrogator published with stories about Roswell storylines (silverhandprint)
2014 – Minutes before the destruction of Earth, Future Liz Convinces Future Max to go back in time and convince Liz to deceive Max into “falling out of love with her” – thus, changing the future (TEOTW)

In Summary

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? The Ava drawings also seem to tie Liz in just by including her, but …? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. I’m also hoping the clues that we have found are up-lifting to the Dreamers out there that just lurk! Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome.

OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS[b/] (even asides about spoilers are not allowed), but anything “aired” is subject to discussion, including coming attractions and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!!

Importance of the repeated "V" pattern and hand-holding:

Here is a great drawing of a diamond (the shape of the granolith) that Metaphysical posted - notice the repeated "V"'s within the shape?

The granolith itself (is Liz it's "keeper"???) Cool animation compliments of Adrian

Liz as Venus:

Liz and Max as twin souls - notice how they come together to form the
"swirl" on the orb activated during Sexual Healing. Also - notice the
"Emergency" sign behind them - when they come to gether it reads "MERGE".
The animation is from the alternate ending to Leaving Normal is currently being moved but will be back up again soon Thanks redhawk
The screencap is of the aired ending of Leaving Normal - here you can see a variation of the orb swirl as well.

Metaphysicalgirl found lots of neat pictures of chakras and crop circles - here is an artists representation of the chakra that corresponds to Max's "royal seal" - notice the eagle and the swirl - both of which are Max/Liz symbols:

Liz as the keeper of/key to the granolith:
Picture of the granolith chamber in the crashdown:

Liz with the word "CHANGE" behind her - from Leaving Normal. I think the
theme of Liz's "emergence" is central to Roswell - Think of Future Max's
line that Liz needed to let herself change.

Liz's Hero Journey is closely linked to images of Liz looking into MIRRORS. The mirror seems to symbolize the transformation Liz is undergoing. Another symbol linked to Liz is that of BUTTERFLIES - an obvious symbol of metamorphasis and change.

Sheila Hubble:

Liz as the Virgin Mary/key to Salvation (::waving to Evid:

The dragon on Liz's window:

Liz as the Trojan Horse (she was avoiding Maria in the Pilot and ate lunch
with Pam TROY). Horses have shown up alot in pictures, etc but here is the
horse that ran in front of Max's jeep in Blood Brothers:

The "destiny" book with the name "LIZ" backwards next to what looks like the
granolith sideways:

Liz and the cave "map" - note the granolith-like symbols near her neck and
towards the top.

Liz and the Childhoods End book:

Liz is also often shown with SUNFLOWERS or SUNS - a symbol that links her to Max - who is closely associated with the SUN. Here she is with her latest sunflowers - little sunflower lights. Also notice the "V" pattern on her blanket.

Okay Zero - here you go - the cross and the sugar cubes:

Images thanks to crashdown, shapeshifter, redhawk and a HUGE thanks to
www.theddd.com who are kind enough to
supply custom screencaps for our gallery.
THANKS!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I rewatched TEOTW tonight with my 12-year-old (her first viewing of it), and all she could say throughout was, "That's so sad."
A key line in TEOTW to Liz's Importance is when she asks FM why he didn't just go to Tess, and he replies, "Because it's you that I trust." Maybe that trust was just as important as anything else, and that's why FM didn't think the Kyle thing was such a great idea. Since Tess knew what Liz's plan was, I wonder if the writers will have Tess come to the realization that such selfless love has more value than the Destiny of Scientist Cloners.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Tasyfa--I can see if you just came in on Season2 you would feel the way you do about Tess but I do think her actions starting of course with her behavior in the last six episodes of season1 and then on to several episodes into season2---although she might not have overtly came out and did anything too obvious---I think some of her expressions and reactions to things from very early on in this season have made me wonder whether she was hiding things--she had a very weird expression in Ask Not when she told Max at the end, we still have our enemies to deal with--her eyebrows were both going in opposite directions and then she looks down and away somewhat suspiciously, and I agree with Starbox in Harvest when Ida asked did you all work with the congresswoman---they purposely showed a very suspicious expression on Tess's face as they were asked that hmmmm--I still think she busted in on the conversation betw Isabel and Nicholas---no you came barging in b4 we could have an actual conversation---the funny expression she had looking at VW pic talking to Ida------even in Wipeout I am not convinced that what she accomplished with that fireball was a good thing------the fact that Liz says she does not trust her in Surprise goes a long way with me----and how about Courtney saying "trust me, no one is after Tess?" In Harvest when Max accuses Liz of notifying the skins of VW death--we know Liz didn't tell so who did-another funny expression here I thought--some very weird expressions in MITC when Max's back is turned and Rath, Lonnie and Tess are all discussing the import of the granolith. These are just a few examples of suspicion but I felt up to a certain point this season for every normal step Tess took, her expressions still made her suspicious at least until ARCC so it just makes me wonder.

quote:
Tess gets younger and younger acting and looking.

Yeah, it's the pigtails...

This is kind of weird - I was looking for a pigtail pic of Tess. Couldn't find one, but I found this.
It's the daughter of the ghost who haunted Max in ARCC. The dad had sacrificed himself to save her. Doesn't she look like a young TESS? Creepy, huh.

Another thing I noticed while I was looking at ARCC: The ghost tells Max he has to GET A PLAN. We've been hearing that phrase again and again! (I know we heard it in HTOHL and several times in VLV...)

quote:TESS is the ultimate in potential for conspiricy theory.

Most definitely. The suspicious behavior was snowballing up until MITC. I think you folks were right; something must have happened to Tess in NY. I sure hope they tie up some loose ends about this before the season's over. And would it be too much to ask? Show us Liz' rightful place! Get her to the granolith chamber and let's see what happens!

off soapbox...

GraceKel Not surprisingly (since I started rambling pretty well there! ), but I didn't make it very clear that I do NOT trust Tess at all, and I think something very weird is going on. The ep in which I find her behaviour the most intriguing is Wipeout, actually. She seems unstable almost, until the very end scene where she's walking in the park with Max. I sincerely hope that the writers have some plan in mind for her continued changes, b/c that's the only way that she makes any sense when you take all of her characteristics into consideration. And, I agree with shapeshifter (I think!) that Tess is getting younger and more immature and more pointless; she worked better as a character in S1. I can't shake the idea of her as the royal bodyguard, though; the way she's acted whenever the granolith is mentioned (mainly Wipeout & MITC) just sends off warning bells every time I see it.

Zero Thanks for the new thread
~Tas

Starbox--I agree about the little girl stuff too, actually I remember thinking in White Room though last season--she had the pigtails in her hair--that she was childlike and I remember Shapeshifter saying the same thing as well.

Just poping in for a little bit, I'm doing yard work today because it's a gorgeous 70 degrees here in Carlsbad, NM. Sorry for those of you that are still buried in snow.

I wanted to share something that caught my eye from the Monsters script.
I know the writers are not relating much to season one, so I was unsure if this would be of any importance. However it seems like they have continued cluing us in on number 5, so with that, read on.

LIZ: No no no no. I get it, but we're just stuck with each other. You know? The five of us. For me, just try and be friendly with Isabel.

Was this the ultimate clue as to who are the true five?

Max- King
Liz- Bride
Isabel- Kings sister
Michael- Betrothed to Isabel and a soldier
Maria- Second in command

Think about, who are the main characters on the show? I know your thinking, but Maria as second? Oh yes, she is truly Liz's second, and let's not forget the bonding between her and Max at the beginning of season two. She even calls Max boss on Harvest as their leaving town. I know but what about Tess? Ok let's be honest with are selves, have any of you really ever believed that she fit in? Tess has been that part of the puzzle that we just can't figure out, everytime we try to put her in as the bride we end up having second thoughts. Why is that? I think it's because she is not one of them. Who she is, and what her perpose is, I still can't figure out. I just know in my gut, that it can't be good, as you all have pointed out. She seems to me as someone who Liz let in and became friends with, only she wanted what Liz had, Max the King, and she sold her soul to get him. Ok, RBI's poke away.

Evid

In keeping with the transcendent memory angle, perhaps that spot in Las Vegas is a "thin place." Some people hold that there are physical places of historical/spiritual significance where one is more receptive to the transcendent. Examples might be Iona, Stonehenge, Fatima, Tibet...

Okay, it's rediculous to even think of Las Vegas as a thin place, but hey, you can't PICK where the thin place is going to be, it just reveals itself as a kind of opening or portal to another place of connection.

So (and I am getting to the point, here) if Las Vegas is a "thin place" for Max's history, I wonder if it might be one of the points on the cave map. We still don't know what all the points represent, but we do know the Library was one of the places, and Tess was able to grab the book out of the wall there. Good or ill, perhaps the library is a kind of thin place as well... Arizona also seems to be a place of significance...

Have we correlated all the points on the cave map to physical locations?

Sorry for those of you that are still buried in snow.
Snows gone in NE for now. Suppose to get more this weekend.

quote:Originally posted by Evid:
However it seems like they have continued cluing us in on number 5, so with that, read on.

LIZ: No no no no. I get it, but we're just stuck with each other. You know? The five of us. For me, just try and be friendly with Isabel.

Was this the ultimate clue as to who are the true five?
Yes.
quote:Originally posted by Evid:

Max- King
Liz- Bride
Isabel- Kings sister
Michael- Betrothed to Isabel and a soldier
Maria- Second in command
I disagree with Maria as second in command only because in the example above, Liz is saying the line to try to get Maria to join the gang. A commander is automatically going to take on leadership roles. Maria was trying to avoid the fact she was involved with the others.
quote:Originally posted by Evid:
Oh yes, she is truly Liz's second, and let's not forget the bonding between her and Max at the beginning of season two. She even calls Max boss on Harvest as their leaving town.
You know what? We've really haven't seen anything between Liz and Maria that suggests that they are these great friends anymore. Maria's character is more adult and more sarcastic than she used to be. It's like she changed during the time period Liz was with Max. The only scene that suggests that they are good friends is the fountain scene in MITC, the high five virgins. But Liz and Maria are not talking to one another as openingly as good best friends should.
quote:Originally posted by Evid:
I know but what about Tess? Ok let's be honest with are selves, have any of you really ever believed that she fit in? Tess has been that part of the puzzle that we just can't figure out, everytime we try to put her in as the bride we end up having second thoughts. Why is that? I think it's because she is not one of them. Who she is, and what her perpose is, I still can't figure out. I just know in my gut, that it can't be good, as you all have pointed out.
Tess is a podster: I question how Harding's influence shaped her desires. The longer she spends with the Valenti's, the more human she becomes. I think that Tess and Harding believed that free will wasn't something Tess (or the others) had. But Tess is starting to realize she does have free will. She can be whatever she wants, and although she remains comfortable inside the pigeon hole of "bride", she is looking outside her cubby and realizing how she has been cheated.
quote:Originally posted by Evid:
Ok, RBI's poke away.

Evid
Not poking. Generally, I think Tess is difficult to figure out. Liz and Tess could be friends if it wasn't for the Max situation. It's interesting that Liz and Tess are trying to figure their relationship out still. Interestingly enough, Liz has been more open and honest with Tess than Tess has. Given our general bias towards Liz, that could be why we can't figure Tess out.

I also think (and I am sorry, I can not remember who said it first) that there are some things that can not be changed. THings that are meant to happen, no matter how many times the event is replayed with different choices made by the various players. Certain events are anchors in time. Events that will always happen, even if the roads used to get there are different.

Max and Liz being married is one of those anchors. And in this area where chance and prediction and time kind of merge, this event, surfaced like a rock in the middle of a river. Max and Liz are soulmates, joined to eachother across time and chance. They are a universal constant. They are each others destiny.

Did that make sence?

I also think (and I am sorry, I can not remember who said it first) that there are some things that can not be changed. THings that are meant to happen, no matter how many times the event is replayed with different choices made by the various players. Certain events are anchors in time. Events that will always happen, even if the roads used to get there are different.

Max and Liz being married is one of those anchors. And in this area where chance and prediction and time kind of merge, this event, surfaced like a rock in the middle of a river. Max and Liz are soulmates, joined to eachother across time and chance. They are a universal constant. They are each others destiny.

Did that make sense?

Does it make sense? It gives me chills. Eloquently said!

Regarding the timeline and the new infos at silverhandprint.com, Charles Dupree died in 1993 when he was 75 years old so he was probably born in 1918. He first started being abducted shortly after he found the silver deposit when he was 18, so around 1936. So, it means that the aliens started to gather human DNA a decade prior to the 1947 crash.

ScarletMoon--welcome to Liz Import thread and thanks for sharing that information with us about Charles Dupree at the Silverhandprint.Com

Qfanny--I am so glad that I am not the only one who has noticed a difference in Maria this season--quite frankly last season Maria was somewhat wacky sometimes but basically I felt she was a warm person--this season she has become a bit of a smarty pants--I thought she was especially mean to Laurie who had just been through a traumatic experience of being buried in the ground--all that stuff about going potty--I hated it and felt this was not like Maria--but I wouldn't call it maturity. Frankly I liked the warm and wacky Maria much better.

Remember me?

OK, the reason for my prolonged absence? Under the encouragement of bluecornmoon, Qfanny and shapeshifter, I have had a go at writing a Fanfic that uses many of the ideas and theories posted on this very thread.

Maxcedo has kindly offered to host Each part as I complete it (removing the previouse, but leaving an e-mail link) so that you, fellow RBI'ers, may read it. Please be sure to let me know what you think.

The Importance of Being Elizabeth 1 - Genesis

WR.

I was just checking out silverhandprint and under the allies link they don't even have a picture of Tess but they do of KYLE and MARIA ...have I stumbled on irrelevant findings once again , probably but someone please tell me thats just weird she didn't make the cut .

I had a question, dunno who to ask , but does anyone still have the link to the Ava Journal entry where they had the two pages of pictures of the dupes/podies ?!?! I can't find it on the site and some of the Isabel Importance Mythers haven't seen it yet. Could anyone pretty please PM me the link for the sister mythers ? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I guess what I meant by maturity is that Maria seems to have more confidence in herself. However, this confidence seems to be based in her new sarcastic personality. Maria does seem to care about things, but I also prefer Season 1 Maria over season two. In fact, I think a great Maria episode is Four Squares. This is the type of person I could warm up to.

AlienMom and I met Jason today!!! He was here in Phoenix, AZ at America West Arena playing basketball for the Suns Nite Celebrity Shoot Out! As soon as I can get my pictures scanned I'll be back with them and more details.... I've gotta catch up on this thread too...

I can't wait to hear more. Did JB look well? When I saw him from afar, I could tell that we was under the weather. I would think that since then he's had time to recover!

I don't know if this has any relevance whatsoever, but I saw this screencap today and it just made me think of some of the discusions we have had about Liz's importance to the Podsters and all the issues they had with trusting her in the beginning...I really hope this link works! It is a little blurry but I think it says TRUST between Michael and Liz...

man I hope I got the http right...

edited because it isn't working...grrr

Edited because it still isn't working! Gah! Well I am gonna go back to the site, see if I have the http thing right and practice on the screencap thread and then come back and try again...*sigh*

k, I think I got it right this time...crossing my fingers!!

Edited for the fifth time to clean it up and to say "WOO-freakin-HOO!" it worked!! So someone comment, does anyone else think it says Trust? If so, what does it mean (if anything, I am probably reading way too much into this...)

Remember me?

OK, the reason for my prolonged absence? Under the encouragement of bluecornmoon, Qfanny and shapeshifter, I have had a go at writing a Fanfic that uses many of the ideas and theories posted on this very thread.

Maxcedo has kindly offered to host Each part as I complete it (removing the previouse, but leaving an e-mail link) so that you, fellow RBI'ers, may read it. Please be sure to let me know what you think.

The Importance of Being Elizabeth 1 - Genesis

WR.

I read part 1 before I knew it was written by an RBI. I thought it was really excellent and I love the way you have incorporated some of our previous discussions into it. I'm looking forward to reading more.

*REMINDER*
For those of you participating in the Season 1 Rerun Campaign, tonight we'll be watching the Pilot, 9pm to 10pm Eastern Time. There will be a discussion thread posted at Roswell 1 and the WB Board. Hope you all will be able to join us in these wonderful discussions. If you'd like more info on this campaign go to http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum12/HTML/002531.html

Thanks
Dayneen & loribell

I did watch Braveheart Friday night. Great movie though the violence was certainly overwhelming. Since there have been references made to the film in recent episodes, I hope you won't mind some observations, though possibly off-topic...

Am I correct that it's Michael who feels connected to the Braveheart story? Wallace would be an apt role model for him since he was a great warrior. I can also see how Michael would associate Max with Robert the Bruce; while Robert the Bruce becomes a great king and leader of his people, it's Wallace who paved the way for his success.

There are also many elements of the story that relate to Max's struggles. Wallace's love, Muran, whom he married in secret, dies young but remains with him in battle as a guide. She warns him of betrayal and greets him at his death.

Some good sound bytes:

Wallace's uncle tells him "It's our wits that make us men."

Someone else tells him "You have a free heart; follow it."

At Stirling Bridge Wallace rallies his troops with the following:

quote:Sons of Scotland, I am William Wallace.

(Young soldier: William Wallace is 7 feet tall.)

William Wallace: Yes, I've heard. He kills men by the hundreds, and if he were here he'd consume the English with fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse. I am William Wallace, and I see a whole army of my countrymen here in defiance of tyranny. You have come to fight as free men, and free men you are. What will you do with that freedom? Will you fight?

(rumbling among the troops, who want to flee)

Ay, fight and you may die, run and you'll live. At least a while. And dying in your beds many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance, just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our freedom? ... Every man dies, not every man really lives.

Anyway, I loved the blue war paint...

I can see how Michael would see Wallace as a hero/role model.

Thanks
Dayneen & loribell

I'll be watching the Pilot, but.. you know what would be great? If the WB ACTUALLY reran these episodes! What's up with Roswell being M.I.A. for a month!?!?

Adrian: So you met the King himself, we need details please.

Qfanny: Thanks for your reply to my post. I agree with both you and Grace on Maria's change, and I too miss the Maria from season one, she is very rude and self absorbed, and boy does she have a mouth on her. I also agree with you that Tess is a podster, I just don't think she is one of the important five. I think the reason Max had to get close to her, was to keep her from betraying them and joining the enemy. We all saw how angry she was before Liz went to her on TEOTW. Remember when she said "Max can go to hell for all I care." At this point I really don't know what side she will join, I don't think the writers think that far ahead in advance anymore.

Evid

It is a little blurry but I think it says TRUST between Michael and Liz...

B]

Hello [b]Valkyre ! I definately see the trust sign and I'm glad you finally got to post it so it shows. I was feeling the pain of your frustration . I hate when that happens . I dunno what relevance it has either but I think that Liz should work on her friendship with Michael after all he IS her best friend's dude. Cool cap !

Evid : WOOHOO! Cannot believe someone else agrees that this entire future thing was to make Tess not betray the group after she left . I got majorly bashed @ one thread for saying that . I love your replies.

No one has that Ava journal entry then huh . I'll go bug Shapeshifter see if she has it .

I thought this when I first was thinking of a way that someone could betray the king (this was before Surprise, before I came on this thread). I still think this is a possibility, although I like the idea of her being a decoy for Liz. That would explain why she “remembers” Max loving her. If he thought that, under a heavy veil was Liz, he would be looking at her lovingly. Transferring that into memory could equal that Tess thought he loved her. However, I think she could have been the decoy and still sold her soul.

I posted this at the end of the last thread and wanted to get discussion goin about the new Silverhandprint information - so here it is again:

quote:Just finished reading the National Interrogator recently published on the Silverhandprint site! Pretty funny! SO, Here are my observations:

Karen Wyscarver was abducted by aliens in Roundup, Montana - anyone remember where Grant Sorenson wandered? Didn't he steal something from somewhere in Montana? I find it so interesting that a Psychic could know so much from a telephone call! So - she thinks she is fulfilling some kind of mission? Now, who else do you we think has a mission? Oh Right - LIZ!!

Brody was abducted the same year Grandpa Charles Dupree dies - of what? at the age 75 years old. Brody's daughter is 5 (our magic number) at the time of her healing.

5 children were healed by Max at 8:33 PM on the 23rd of December! Numbers, Numbers!

Laurie was abandoned by her father - sounds like Maria! - and orphaned by her mother (how?). Laurie was 16 when committed.

Finally - Cousin Paulie Race, cousin of the guy who finds some of the blue crystals in Fraser Woods, was sure clever - he not only figured out the use of the blue crystals, but came up with the same name that the aliens used! Anyone think he was possessed? Like that human-alien peanut butter sandwich analogy! Now - I would like to see a Max/Liz sandwich!

Also, Scarlet Moon - I will make the date changes - thanks for catching that! Where did you get the info that Charles found gold at age 18??

Lots of fun discussion about Tess and Maria!

Also - "Run, Lola, Run" which I watched at Zara's suggestion has the Swirl on both the door and the bed sheets - which is interesting. Talking about how a simple change/choice can have huge ramifications - this is a great movie for that - not just on Lola, but all those she comes into contact with.

Till later all -
Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!

quote:From silverhandprint.com
Laurie Dupree is the granddaughter of Charles Dupree, the Arizona mining tycoon. Although best known for finding the largest silver deposit in the southwest when he was only 18, Charles Dupree was also known for his wild tales of alien terror. "They started taking Charlie just after he found the silver," says a neighbor. "He was terrified they were gonna get him again and take his soul. He even started living in the bomb shelter under his house." Mr. Dupree was committed to a mental institution in 1992 and died less than a year later. He was 75 years old.

I just went back to silverhandprint.com and they added some Quicktime news coverage (Laurie's disappearance). There's a link for the coverage about the healed kids but the link isn't working right now.

Maxcedo has kindly offered to host Each part as I complete it (removing the previouse, but leaving an e-mail link) so that you, fellow RBI'ers, may read it. Please be sure to let me know what you think.

The Importance of Being Elizabeth 1 - Genesis

WR.

Thanks WR for sharing your fic! Very good start! I commend anyone who attempts to collect some of the theories in here into story-form. I've tried and found it very difficult. There are SO MANY fantastic theories to build fic out of.... it's hard to just pick a few concepts and roll with them. You're tempted to try and include EVERYTHING!

I can't wait to read more WR!

Melodious

LIVE LONG AND PROSPER....Liz Parker

.

Am I correct that it's Michael who feels connected to the Braveheart story? Wallace would be an apt role model for him since he was a great warrior. I can also see how Michael would associate Max with Robert the Bruce; while Robert the Bruce becomes a great king and leader of his people, it's Wallace who paved the way for his success.

There are also many elements of the story that relate to Max's struggles. Wallace's love, Muran, whom he married in secret, dies young but remains with him in battle as a guide. She warns him of betrayal and greets him at his death.

Someone else tells him "You have a free heart; follow it."

I can see how Michael would see Wallace as a hero/role model.

OT but thts interesting about solder Michael/Wallace and how his love died now would this be Isabel ?!?! I keep thinking about that scene in VLV when she made the wine spot disappear off the bride's dress. I wonder if the bride had anything to do with the Vilondra thing since thats what sparked the trouble back on home planet. Alrighty, well I'm gone for the day

I just went back to silverhandprint.com and they added some Quicktime news coverage (Laurie's disappearance). There's a link for the coverage about the healed kids but the link isn't working right now.

Well, it was a good laugh.

I'm so glad the swirl was in there! Can't wait to see it.

Was this the ultimate clue as to who are the true five?

I think that liz is also apart of the true five.

Okay if you watch Viva Las Vegas at the moment where Max is standing outside waiting for the cab. The cab pulls up and just as max comes from seeing liz you can see the numbers of the cab they say 122 and there a 4 and 1 on the bottom of the door

[/B]

Hi roswelldiva
That is from White Room, and I felt like in that ep especially, when Liz had to make the decision to go to Valenti for help, the trust thing was a BIG issue. And besides, we are Mythers, RBI's and CHADDs, its our sacred duty to read too much into these things!

Val

The fact that they included the 5 healed kids on silverhandprint seems significant. Maybe when JB & Shiri start getting the middle-age droops we'll have 5 new teenage clones to carry on the mythology.

And all U.S. RbI'ers should post on the WB Board tonight about TEOTW to show support for the show.

alienfactors: More 5's? If they ever show a clock with the time reading 1:22 we will know something big is about to happen.

You guys rock!

I need to go find my copy of the Pilot...

Val

[/B]

You know it ! I was also re-reading silverhandprint and I don't remember who said that apparently they had to "clean out" the human bodies to prepare them to be used for communication but in the article about Brody it says in fact that they healed his cancer as well so that obviously true. Then all those kids are like walking cell phones now .

Alienfactors : wow I hadn't notice that about the 122 and the fives in the cab. Thats pretty good

Evid: WOOHOO! Cannot believe someone else agrees that this entire future thing was to make Tess not betray the group after she left . I got majorly bashed @ one thread for saying that . I love your replies.

roswelldiva: Don't tell me you went to the Rebel camp and posted that, oh girl you are brave. I'm not saying that she MIGHT not turn out to be good, she might even end up helping. I just don't think of her as part of the A team.

Alexis: I like your theory. All though I still get the chills thinking of Max even being slightly interested in Tess. He is just some how tarnished in my eyes when his eyes are not locked on Liz, even if the reason is to protect her. My loyalty will always remain with are Lady Liz. It's just to bad the writers and JK don't feel the same way.

I rented the Run Lola Run video from Hasting. They tend to have the biggest selection of foreign films.

I'm off to watch the Pilot and I just know I'm going to lose it, because I'll be remembering what was and what could have been.

Evid

Sorry for my insanity!

Val

I'm so glad the swirl was in there! Can't wait to see it.[/B]

Zara - I gave up on Blockbuster - they are so disorganized - and recently we were so fed up with their service that we cut up our cards - I'm mailing them to the corporate headquarters! BUT Hollywood video had "Run, Lola, Run" had it - and found it in 2 seconds! I would recommend going to them - if you have one in your area.

RoswellDiva - We NEVER bash here! So - don't be afraid to post. People may disagree with you on something, but they do it in a polite analytical manner - NEVER bashing! I would be very disappointed in anyone who bashed someone else! Plus, you never know when great ideas are going to be triggered by what seems like a crazy thought??

Great catch about the numbers Alienfactor!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I think some of us speculated that Max was in tune with Liz and could see what she was seeing as she was driving out to the beforementioned phallis with Kyle and Maria.

You can see a desert highway scene anyways.

I also had major issues with the whole "firestorm" mindwarp thingy from Tess! First - I think that Maria's removal of the phalic symbol from the sign was what cased the end of the timewarp and brought the humans back - not Tess' firestorm burst! Second - Tess' ability had always been presented as illusion (you think what you see is happening, but it is not) - so how come all of a sudden it became reality - enough to scorch the Skins (except Nikko) and leave all else (podsters) and custodian around the corner untouched? It did not add up - unless there is more to it than meets the eye - which is very possible! Either Tess is very Bad (in a deceptive way that maybe she doesn't even know) or a warrior sent to protect the Royal 4 (again without her current knowledge)?? I'm hoping that by the end of the season we get something that ties it together - but I wanted you to know that you are not alone.

Also - I too think Max was having visions "through" Liz's eyes. Ummm....!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Val - about WipeOut - I totally think Tess was evil in this episode. Also - in Max's mindrape - Nicolas sees flashes of things from Liz, Micheal and Isabel. There is a ton of discussuion in the archives.

Instead of watching the episodes I was SUPPOSED to watch tonight I rewatched FS, M2M and WR.
My husband is convinced that Michael and Isabels' child is significant - he thinks it is Tess (I know - I told him its a BOY baby).
BUT - who is the baby???? Is he significant??? Did the royals have babies on Antar??? If so - what happened to them?? Could Khivar be Lonnie and Rath or Zan and Ava's CHILD?? Ick!!! I guess he couldnt be Lonnie's son - but he could be her nephew - we dont know how much older Zan was....
After all in Arthurian legend - Arthur is seduced by his half-sister and his son by her eventually overthrows him. So I wouldnt automatically rule out the royals/Khivar/etc being closely related. What if we have it backwards and Tess is the first wife (an arranged marriage - she could be like Rotchester's mad wife in Jane Eyre! LOL!- mother of Khivar who overthrows his father. Liz is the good young bride. Khivar sends his Mom to find Max and keep him from the young bride....... I dont know - just rambling - my husband's insistence that the babies in the destiny book had to be important got me thinking. Because if they were GOOD kids - they would have been cloned too (I would assume) - so maybe they were BAD.
Season One Tess and Harding are SOOOOOOOOOO creepy and evil!!

I always assumed the Destiny book meant they were supposed to have babies - but what if it meant that they HAD children on Antar??? If the flashes are repressed memories - then M/I must have had a baby that they would be remembering. I wish we knew how old the royals were when they died.

Okay - off my little wild goose chase - onto things I actually noticed.
First - Michael and Isbael were in the top pods in the Tess-a-vision/memory thing. This puts them in the same order they are in in the Destiny book but different from the silverhandprint collages.
Also - in the Tess-a-vision/memory flash thing - I think the baby Tess in the pod looks dead. My husband thought she looked dead too. The way she was floating with her hair - it looked like the pictures of drowned Ophelia. Then when Michael grans her to help find kidnapped Liz is M2M - she is walking next to the "Repair" neon sign. Liz is in front of this sign in sexual healing..... Could this lend to the theory that the leaky pod was "repaired" by transferring the authentic essence to Liz somehow??

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Do you guys feel like discussing TEOTW tonight?

I hope so! If you do here is the link to the thread on the WB board that Faile set up for this Monday. And so begins week two… The End of the World

Here’s the thread on the WB for the discussion… http://talk.thewb.com/read.php?f=1&i=61309&t=61309

It is very important you post there so we can get the WB's attention. Last week we had over 200 posts on one thread…I know we can to better than that!! What I did last week was post here and then copy the same exact post over at the WB board. It’s REALLY important to post there, even more so than here. I know that the WB boards there aren't as user friendly as these boards, but we need to get their attention so please post there!!

Email the thoughts you posted on the WB board to the 4 WB contacts while you are at it!

quote:Originally posted by Zara:
Okay, I just had a weird thought... We've had some discussion about Max's vision/memory flash of his Vegas wedding to Liz and where the vision came from. Was it from FMax or possibly FLiz? Was it a subliminal message from the present Liz? Was it a flash of destiny? Was it a transcendent memory? By that, I mean is he remembering it from another lifetime? This is my favorite interpretation.

In keeping with the transcendent memory angle, perhaps that spot in Las Vegas is a "thin place." Some people hold that there are physical places of historical/spiritual significance where one is more receptive to the transcendent. Examples might be Iona, Stonehenge, Fatima, Tibet...

Okay, it's rediculous to even think of Las Vegas as a thin place, but hey, you can't PICK where the thin place is going to be, it just reveals itself as a kind of opening or portal to another place of connection.

So (and I am getting to the point, here) if Las Vegas is a "thin place" for Max's history, I wonder if it might be one of the points on the cave map. We still don't know what all the points represent, but we do know the Library was one of the places, and Tess was able to grab the book out of the wall there. Good or ill, perhaps the library is a kind of thin place as well... Arizona also seems to be a place of significance...

Have we correlated all the points on the cave map to physical locations?

I know what you mean! I don’t think he ever really felt anything for her! Liz is THE ONE, THE ONLY ONE.

I'm so glad the swirl was in there! Can't wait to see it.

I don't know if you have the movie channels, but it runs on HBO and Cinemax a lot.

So, in the absence of new episodes I have been thinking a lot about the stuff that we have already been given by TPTB.

I happened to pick up a book about Chakras, and that got me to thinking about the royal seal on Max's brain. I don't know if this has been discussed previously, so if it has, I'm sorry. However, I was thinking about Chakras, The Royal Seal, and the Balance -- Is it just a coincidence that the Royal Seal is placed where Max's Ajana Chakra would be?

The Ajana or Third Eye Chakra, is located between the brows in the inward, center of the forehead. Its name means command, perception, knowledge, authority.

Chakra Six: Light, Archetypal identity, oriented to self-reflection

This chakra is known as the brow chakra or third eye center. It is related to the act of seeing, both physically and intuitively. As such it opens our psychic faculties and our understanding of archetypal levels. When healthy it allows us to see clearly, in effect, letting us "see the big picture."

The thing I found most intriguing about this Chakra was the symbol used for it...

There's that V shape again...the triangle...the Granolith....

Chakra is a Sanskrit word meaning wheel, or vortex, and it refers to each of the seven energy centers of which our consciousness, our energy system, is composed.

(Ok, there are only five points to this circle, not seven like the Chakras, but the fact that the alien balance is visually represented by a wheel..or vortex...in this case Michael being the vortex or center of the wheel...is worth pointing out)

These chakras, or energy centers, function as pumps or valves, regulating the flow of energy through our energy system. (That sounds a lot like the Balance) The functioning of the chakras reflects decisions we make concerning how we choose to respond to conditions in our life. We open and close these valves when we decide what to think, and what to feel, and through which perceptual filter we choose to experience the world around us.

Given these definitions and explanations, I really do think there has to be some relationship to "The Balance" and the location of the Royal Seal on Max's crown.

And, just because we like to find stuff like this, the symbol for the 4th Chakra, or the heart Chakra looks like this...

Hi Liz!!!

Chakra Four: Air, Social identity, oriented to self-acceptance

This chakra is called the heart chakra and is the middle chakra in a system of seven. It is related to love and is the integrator of opposites in the psyche: mind and body, male and female, persona and shadow, ego and unity. A healthy fourth chakra allows us to love deeply, feel compassion, have a deep sense of peace and centeredness.

How Liz is that? She is the ying to Max's Yang (or vice versa!) Wow.

Anyway, I figured this information would be a good thing for us to chew on...

Anybody want to help me tie this stuff together!!!

Smiles,
{~}:}

p.s. I found this picture that was a representation of the brow chakra done by artist Ralph Adamson. Anyway... LOOK AT THE PICTURE??? Notice anything familiar? Can you see both the swirl and the eagle?

Geez, I have to keep editing this post because I keep finding more and more things that tie into this theory somehow.

Check this out!!!

The Crown Chakra
Sahasrara. Above the ajna lies the "thousand petalled lotus" where the three principal arteries of the subtle body come together. Here is where the final expression of kundalini awakening acheives the goal of the union of opposite polarities, the wedding of Shiva and Shakti; male and female; electric and magnetic, solar and lunar. (sound familiar RBI's?)

Ralph Adamson colorfully illustrates the assention of kundalini in the expression of a many feathered bird, drawing a parallel with the classic interpretation of a multi-petaled flower. Look at this picture...

What does it mean? Probably nothing. But the similarities, and symbolism are astounding.

MAX: No, we just always looked like this.Except for the, uh, third eye. (Max looks down at the ground as Liz casually looks over at him. Max then leans over as if to tie his shoelace and Liz leans forward staring at the back of Max’s head. Max peeks over and sees Liz looking at his head.) Kidding!

Maybe Max wasn't kidding and he really does have that third eye.

Evid

The symbolism is absolutly astounding. I especally liked the 4th chakra with the star symbol, that we see so much as related to Liz!

I would love to believe that some really intune writer did this intentionally, but knowing the writers this season, I have my doubts. Would you consider e-mailing Zero's intro and this post to somebody important at the WB? Is their a way to contact the writers directly? It may have been unintentional, but I think even they would love to see this corralation.

Maybe even the "story" of Max and Liz was fated to be written. How else could you come up with so many symbolic messages that tie in perfectly with one another? I can't believe that the writers even know their doing it! I would love to see their reaction to this information, or just JK's reaction to the true destiny of his dream.

dreamertoo

Met - this stuff is totally fascinating! The connections are so eerie if not intentional! I love the pictures - yes, I see the swirl in the forehead - and that last one looks just like Liz! Amazing connection!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I'm gonna PM you a question!

dreamertoo

I found this really weird yet intersting web page called "The Symbolism and Spiritual Significance of the Number Five"

I'm telling you it's really weird, but some of it was so interesting.

Have fun with it. How I stumble across these things, I have no idea!!

{~}:}

LOL something like that . I actually bothered to look up some stuff they had asked about from Ava's journal then they tell me not to post pictures because it slows their connection . Some people . Go figure.

Zero : thank you. I did notice everyone in here is soooo much sweeter, nicer and smarter *cough*. Atleast you all really think into things and always find amazing clues. This is by far one of my most favorite threads to read . I get soo excited when I see I have a bunch of pages to catch up to .

Liz people must just be inferable nicer than Tess and other people mythers ...
You guys all rock !!

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:

My husband is convinced that Michael and Isabels' child is significant - he thinks it is Tess (I know - I told him its a BOY baby).
BUT - who is the baby???? Is he significant??? Did the royals have babies on Antar??? If so - what happened to them?? Could Khivar be Lonnie and Rath or Zan and Ava's CHILD?? Ick!!! I guess he couldnt be Lonnie's son - but he could be her nephew - we dont know how much older Zan was....
What if we have it backwards and Tess is the first wife (an arranged marriage - she could be like Rotchester's mad wife in Jane Eyre! LOL! ( )- mother of Khivar who overthrows his father. Liz is the good young bride. Khivar sends his Mom to find Max and keep him from the young bride.......
Season One Tess and Harding are SOOOOOOOOOO creepy and evil!!

I always assumed the Destiny book meant they were supposed to have babies - but what if it meant that they HAD children on Antar??? If the flashes are repressed memories - then M/I must have had a baby that they would be remembering. I wish we knew how old the royals were when they died.

Also - in the Tess-a-vision/memory flash thing - I think the baby Tess in the pod looks dead. My husband thought she looked dead too. The way she was floating with her hair - it looked like the pictures of drowned Ophelia. Then when Michael grans her to help find kidnapped Liz is M2M - she is walking next to the "Repair" neon sign. Liz is in front of this sign in sexual healing..... Could this lend to the theory that the leaky pod was "repaired" by transferring the authentic essence to Liz somehow??

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox : I got chills . I think you may be absolutely right. Makes soo much sense its scary. I was just tlaking about how when they said Vilondra said 'the family jewels first'she may have been refering to a baby not the actual $$. So you think the baby didn't make it thats why it didn't get cloned? Or you think it was sent down? I wouldn't be one of the five right?

Val : I also think Tess was in that episode and something just didn't seem right. Thats why it makes sense that they would need her to feel loved and part of the group so she didn't betray them.

Metaphysical : O M G . Your stuff just blew me away . Especially that wheel/vortex thing. Ok well you get your own post because that was very, very interesting . Do you think thats what powers their powers and if so is this what they all need to work the granolith? Any connection to that at all?

Thank you all for the RLR suggestions. I do get movie channels and will try to get TiVo to record it for me the next time it's on. If that doesn't happen soon I'll buy it from Amazon and share with you RBIs. That was a great suggestion!

[b]Metaphysical : O M G . Your stuff just blew me away . Especially that wheel/vortex thing. Ok well you get your own post because that was very, very interesting . Do you think thats what powers their powers and if so is this what they all need to work the granolith? Any connection to that at all?

I love all you guys. Thanks for the kind words.

I definitely think all of this connects to their powers. Think about it...the podsters powers are human. They are just powers that the human's haven't been able to access yet, because they are not using all parts of their brains.

The third eye is associated with the following:

The third eye is the center of psychic powers and higher intuition, you can receive guidance,channeling,and tune into your higher self. This is the center that enabels you to experience telepathy, astral travel and past lives.

All of the podsters "powers" are kind of psychic in nature. Think about it...even Liz's newfound powers are as well.

In regards to the Granolith, we have already speculated that the Granolith is an energy source... even the shape of the Granolith suggests a pulling down of energy from "up there" and bringing it down to earth.

There is a lot of research and information out in the world about the correlation between psychic abilities and the unused portions of our minds.

Anyway, I'm counting on all of you to expand on these ideas!! Get to work!

Smiles,
{~}:}

When Nicholas mind-raped Max, where was his hand?

The Royal Seal...

The writing on Max's head in the Destiny book..

Anyway, what it all means, I have no idea. But it's gotta mean something, right?

{~}:}

I came across a great mythology web page today. I thought this list belongs on this thread and I wanted to share it with my fellow mythers.

Myth is a method of making sense of the world.
Myth is reality presented to us in a slightly skewed form so that we are not frightened off.
Myth and mythology is the primal source of the knowledge the human race have.
Myth is an attempt to understand the world.
Myth is a way of relating. Myth is about relationships.
Myth is fun, myth is sorrow.
Myth is about maturing and growth and decay and death.
Myth is life.

Myth connects us to an unfragmented world.
Myth puts us in touch with our noblest impulses, our finest dreams.
Myth teaches us to embrace our limitations with joy, for that frees us for what is possible.
Myth is to step out of linear time, into a circle of endless creation.
Myth is magic.

Evid

The explanation of the pic is...
In the beginning of man's time on earth, he was a simple creature. When he began to draw his ideas of creation, he drew with simple
lines. The square represents the earth, and the triangle represents the heavens.

Anyway, the picture of the Granolith. Notice the shapes in back of it...on either side of the cone...

Why that struck me somehow, I have no idea..

/\
|__|

The earth and the heavens. Liz and Max. Humans and aliens.

OMG. I really need to see some new episodes!! I am losing it...

{~}:}

quote:Originally posted by Metaphysicalgrl:
[B]

Chakra is a Sanskrit word meaning wheel, or vortex, and it refers to each of the seven energy centers of which our consciousness, our energy system, is composed.

(Ok, there are only five points to this circle, not seven like the Chakras, but the fact that the alien balance is visually represented by a wheel..or vortex...in this case Michael being the vortex or center of the wheel...is worth pointing out)

[B]

Something else worth pointing out, and this is a visual thing, so behr with me....

If you grab the center of the above Balance wheel...the vortex...Michael and pull up. What would you have? An inverted Granolith!!!

Did you get that?

Doesn't that image remind you of the Granolith?

The two cones on top of each other???

Well, interestingly enough, the top picture of the two cones is actually an example of a "light cone".

The Light Cone is a mathematical model that very neatly encodes this causal structure of Einstein's Spacetime. Each event in Spacetime has a double-cone attached to it, where the vertex (i.e., the tip) corresponds to the event itself. By convention, "time" runs vertically in all of our diagrams. The upward-directed cone opens to enclose the directions pointing towards events to the future of this event. The downward-directed cone directions pointing towards events to the past of this event.

Now I have no idea about Light Cones or Einstein's Space Time...but it seemed like it could be important, or a clue as to what the Granolith is. I'm sure one of you knows about this stuff enough to elaborate on it.

See what happens when I'm left alone to ponder these things....All hell breaks loose in my head.

{~}:}

I'm here. Just trying to catch up...

This reminds me of a three dimensional hyperbola (my calculus is so bad).

There seems to be an underlying current of infinity with your pictures... As if suggesting the granolith can harness an infinite amount of power if used correctly. Or is it that the "Run, Lola, Run" scenerio has been stretch out into an infinate amount of times?

Lastly, regarding the third eye, Max did joke about having a third eye in The Morning After with Liz... And how does the third eye relate to the evil eye?

Here's my tattoo -

I was in a shop where I bought a decorative glass work to hang in my house. The last pane of glass has a hand with the word "Shalom" circled in the palm. I asked the clerk what it meant. She said the hand means "Protection of God" or "Protection of the Evil Eye" The word "Shalom" means piece. I thought it was very interesting myself.

I would want someone to explain it properly to me too!

Really, the point of my last post was to illustrate that the Balance wheel, if you think of it as a 3D object, if you pulled on the center it would look like the Granolith.

Balance, energy, chakras... My head is spinning!!!!

That last thing I found about the Light cone and Einstein...I really have no clue about. It just seemed like it could be relevant. I would need someone to explain it to me as well!! I kind of understood it from reading about it, but not in the kind of way where I could explain it to someone else.

Anyhow, I'm insane. It's a fact.

{~}:}

Lastly, regarding the third eye, Max did joke about having a third eye in The Morning After with Liz... And how does the third eye relate to the evil eye?

Here's my tattoo -

I was in a shop where I bought a decorative glass work to hang in my house. The last pane of glass has a hand with the word "Shalom" circled in the palm. I asked the clerk what it meant. She said the hand means "Protection of God" or "Protection of the Evil Eye" The word "Shalom" means piece. I thought it was very interesting myself.

Hey QFanny!!! Did you get my package?

Your tattoo is awesome!! And it's funny, because I have a pendant that reminds me of your tattoo. It's a Hamsa hand...I think that's exactly what the lady in the store was describing to you.

Interestingly enough, when I was a teenager I found it in my mom's jewelry box. I thought it was cool, so I snagged it. She had bought it on a trip to Isreal.

Here's a picture of what one looks like..

And what it means...

The hamsa hand or the Lucky Hand.
For centuries now The Lucky Hand has been used as a symbol of good luck. Originating some thousand years ago in the far east, the Hand represents the protective hand of God. This magical hand, also known as the Hamsa Hand, the Hand of Fatima, or the Hand of Miriam, is known to draw positive energy, happiness, riches and health to anyone wearing it. This extremely popular charm has also been asociated with bringing people luck, love, and protection from the curse of the evil eye.

Another picture of one..

You got an awesome tatoo!!!

{~}:}

No, only package I've gotten is my 401K package.

Yes, I think that it was a Palestine shop I went to, so it fits, although the hand I have looks more like a real hand with a big circle in it. Just like the tattoo.

Would you be a dear and post your hand information on the Mark of the Behr thread on Ros2. I am sure all the MOBs would like to hear it - be sure to say JB is cute or something like that, and you'll fit right in!

I’ll have to pass that off! I am confused myself!

I did take a “How to Meet Your Guardian Angel” class a few years ago and we discussed Chakras. Interesting stuff. Auras were also discussed.

The third eye—interesting catch about “Morning After.” A person’s Third Eye is always close, but you have to make an effort to utilize it (as Liz did in MITC). Great potential here for the writer’s to use. Liz was the one who asked Brody “You believe in aliens, but not psychic phenomena?”

Just wanted to comment on how amazing you people are! I don't have too many things to comment as of yet, but I absolutely LOVE coming here to procrastinate from work.

It makes me start to wonder WHEN Will Liz see the Grnolith? And WHAT will happen when she does!?!

Met and Evid - I've got to head off to a bunch of meetings, but I wanted to THANK YOU!!! for all the mind stimulating info. I'm getting inspired to up-date the Intro with all this information. I bet Nemo can add something on these topics since I know we touched on the 3-dimensional stuff a bit before. Also, I think Reggie had a lot of info on that topic?? And we all thought we would be bored stiff while we WAITED for new episodes - I gues if we managed to make it through the summer, we can last 4 more weeks!

BTW - Welcome Hibiscuss! And all newbies/lurkers!

I'll be back later - probably much later - but my subconscious will be working overtime while I'm sitting in my meetings!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I forgot to say another thing I noticed about
FourSquare/M2M - when Max confronts Tess at school about the destiny book you see her close her locker and she has the front door all decorated with pictures. I GraceKelled the scene and watched it a bunch of times and she has SEX pictures hanging in her locker.
Creepy and weird. They are not X rated - but nude bodies embracing in sillhoute. For a girl without a "human side" - she certianly wasted no time making photo collages to decorate her locker. Just seems inconsistent.
Also - I tried and tried to get a good look at the destiny book page with the "mating" picture and what I could see - it doesnt look like the podsters. The girl in the picture that is shown clearly has short hair and the faces are almost blank.
Also - the page has two "couples" holding hands with fetus inside the girl figure. At first it seemes like it was implying TWO couples reproducing - but the fetus in the first picture is noticably smaller than the second - I wonder if it is more a "first trimester, second trimester" picture - does the book have missing pages??? Could the next page originally have been a third trimester picture with birth details???

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

It's my pictures and synopsis of the Celebrity Basketball game Jason was at this last Sunday!

You can find the whole scoop on the Ros2 board on the 4th page of the AZ thread: http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum12/HTML/002528-4.html#91

or on the Celebrity Shootout thread on the JB board: http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum22/HTML/000854-3.html#69

Here's a teaser picture of me with Jason...

Metaphysicalgirl-
Your theories are super! They made me do a little thinking. So I went and did some looking up and while science is my WORST subject, I discovered that what you found was Einstiens theory of relativity (E=mc^2) (Did you already know that??? sorry!) anyway, it goes something along the lines of by reaching the speed of light one slows down time and can therefore travel within it. It also messes with the mass of stuff but I was starting to get lost

but if we're not insane, I guess that would be how FMax was able to use the granolith as a time travel machine, b/c it is made like Einstien's model and doesn't bend light. And since this is physics, it would be right up Liz's alley. Whew, ok, enough for me.
Just had to throw that out there.

Smiles
Star_Kissed

StarBox: Someone posted this about Tess's locker awhile ago, but this is a good time to bring it up again.
I believe she used books, magazines, pictures of the podsters and anything else she could get her hands on to make her mindwarps believable. Just go back and take a hard look at 4 Sq and M2M and you will see what I mean. The pictures she saw in the Evans kitchen were used to mindwarp Max and Iz in the pod chamber and Michael in the desert, he seemed older then six, maybe 9, the age he was when he met Max and Iz. Now I would think Diane had pictures of her kids best friend, don't you? The sexuel material was used for Michael and Isabel's dreams and all of Max's mindwarps. One really strange warp was when Max had the vision of him and Tess when she was sitting on the jeep. It looks just like a book cover of a trashy romance novel. I guess she never was a big John Steinbeck fan after all. Now I know these episodes are tough to watch so just make sure you watch them on an empty stomach.

Evid

I am taking a regional studies class on Japan. My professor was talking about traditions and superstitions in Japanese culture, and something struck me about his talk about unlucky numbers. He said that:

The character used to represent the #4 in Japanese also represents the word Shi(Sp?). Shi is the word meaning TO DIE.

The character used to represent the #9 also represents the word Que(sp?). Que is the word meaning TO SUFFER.

Hence, the Japanese are superstitious of these #'s and avoid them much like we do the #13.

When I heard him say that the character for 4 also meant TO DIE I felt shivers go up my back. It was really creepy after all the talks the RBIs have had about Liz being important to the R4's survival. They need a 5th. I wonder if one of the writers took a Japanese studies course!

Second of all, with Valenti the group has 9 members. I don't want to exclude Valenti from the group but 8 of the members are from the same generation.

Are they meant to find a 9th and 10th-Valenti and a teen? Or Nasedo and Valenti?

Of course, these are all speculations on what it may mean if the Japanese cultural meanings of 4 and 9 are really incorparated into the show.

Evid that works for me - Remember the long hair/short hair Isabel debate. I think those pictures Tess looked at where the same pictures Isabel flipped through in RD looking for the sand drawing. I think they were age nine at the time.

maxcedo has the rest - www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/tessNmom.htm

That's right RBIs! Crop circles which are traditionally thought to be created by UFOs and aliens often take the form of CHAKRAS!

Me thinks the writers might have studied Chakras afterall, since it would be connected to alien research

-----Also-there is alot of info about the "Tree of Life" on the site about the number 5. I know someone was developing a theory in connection to the Tree of Life and Liz. I am not sure if you have already seen this info but you should check it out! Apparently the Tree of Life is connected to the number 5 Here's Meta's link again http://www.greatdreams.com/five/five.htm

Thanks Meta!

Lots of Love,
SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

In any case, speaking about the Tree Of Life and Crop Circles...I actually came across a picture of a Tree of Life Crop Circle (that's right..) and you know what it looked like? It looked EXACTLY like the allies symbol on www.silverhandprint.com.

I didn't post it the other day, because I had no idea how to tie it into anything...but since you brought it up.

Here's another crop circle that actually reminded me of the sign on the cave wall...that Max put his hand on?

Hmmmmmm. But I'm dancing a happy little jig right now because Nemo said he liked the Light Cone thing!!! I feel like I've been given a good grade on a test!

Anyway, I've been dying to talk with all you guys about these latest posts and whatnot, but this thread has been DEAD for the last two days and hardly moving.

It's killing me!!

Smiles,
{~}:}

STARBOX--right after M2TM aired I posted this very thing about inside of TESS's locker were pics of silouette kissing not unlike some of the Tessavisions we were seeing and in your slow moing of this part right when Tess is about to close her locker did you see the look on her face--very suspicious right? Now all of a sudden Tess becomes miss sweety in ARCC-sorry I just don't buy it and probably never will. A leopard doesn't change its spots.

Oh yes I do remember the pages of discussion we had about the hair lenght. One poster, sorry I forget who it was, said that she did a study on each frame and dicovered that they were indeed hair extentions. So it seems like it was intentional to make her hair appear longer in the Tessavision. Their was also a list found of the actors on M2M, Isabels vision, and Zoe Nutter was on that list, the same actress was used. Nothing gets by the RBI's.

I never bought and will never buy the sweet Tess act because of what was discovered on season one. I also think she was alone on this mission and Nasedo was not aware of her con job. Read the line below and see if you agree.

NASEDO: How could you bring them up here like this? You know the Special Unit is close. You saw that camera. Who do you think put it on them in the first place? Our friend, Pierce.

We never intentionally think the worst of Tess, we just find the clues and they speak for them selves.
As for season two, I'm just really confused about her character. I just can't figure out what the writers are trying to tell us, anyone else feel the same way?

Evid

We never intentionally think the worst of Tess, we just find the clues and they speak for them selves.
As for season two, I'm just really confused about her character. I just can't figure out what the writers are trying to tell us, anyone else feel the same way?

Evid

Unfortunately, I think the writers are acting like season 1 never existed and expect us to have forgotten all the evidence presented then, which suggested that Tess is not what she seems. Whether she is aware of it or not, her desire to 'mate' with Max, has got to be a bid for power, either for herself, or for whoever is using her. I'll be very disappointed but not surprised if they just drop this and expect us to buy the Tess of season 2. The Tessovision emergence from the pods is completely fake. If former Max had any feelings for her, why did he leave her behind? Why didn't she hatch the same time as the others? How long after the others did she hatch? And why did it take Nasedo 10 years to find the pod squad when they hadn't travelled far from home? I would like to have some satisfactory answers to these questions before I start taking things on face value.

Metaphysicalgrl, I love what you have discovered, but science was never my strongest subject so I'll have to pass on this discussion.

Adrian, great picture. It sounds like you had a great time.

Evid/GraceKel - Thanks for your comments about Tess and the locker. I totally agree that Tess used the pictures of the Evans kids to create her Tess-o-visions. I have faith that the writers are going to tie it all back together. All the poeple that fell for Tess's "friendly alien" act are going to get the rug pulled out from under them - which is just what the writers want. And really - is there anything better than plot twists? Think about your favorite suspense movies - they ALL have great plot twists.
(And totally OT - I also firmly believe that Ron is going to betray Harry Potter in book 6! - in stories like this of archetypal struggles you almost HAVE to have the betrayal)

One thing that really struck me rewatching the last episodes of Season One was Isabel's distrust of Tess. When they go into the podchamber and she has the Tessovision-flash of emerging from the pods her reaction is strong and immediate that it is NOT real/true. What is Isabel's connection to it all. And why the baby stuff with Isabel?? It seems unlikely that the Vilandra the skins/dupes have told us about ever had a baby - especially not with Rath. So why would that be what Tess picked to throw Isabel off balance??? And if it is unlikely that it is an actual memory - then it becomes even MORE likely that it was planted by Tess. Also - it really bothers me that Harding is hiding in the rocks. It bothered me when I watched it and it still bothers me.
This probably belongs on the conspiricy list but rewatching I think that the Harding/Pierce relationship was not about Pierce trying to study/kill aliens. I think Harding was after the granolith and so was Pierce. In Max to the Max it has NEVER made sense as to WHY Nasedo would impersonate Max and kidnap Liz.
*Nasedo says Liz is going to be his hostage (for what??).
*Tess says Nasedo is going to kill Pierce (so why does he need a hostage and why not just shapeshift into Pierce's bed or car (since he can shapeshift into walls) and then kill him quickly???)

I think Nasedo was TRYING to get Max captured. It is the only thing that makes sense. He "rescues" Liz after she tells Max she will not leave without him. He has to get Liz out so Max will be left alone to get captured. Then we know that Nasedo immediately infiltrates the FBI unit by shapeshifting - but he is not doing anything to HELP Max. I think he wanted Max to get interrogated so that he could find out about the granolith.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

In fact if they do read this thread they should realize by now that some pretty intelligent people are watching this show right? So writers please keep this in mind.

Can you imagine this scene in the writer's room. Well Gretchen, that is not quite up to par...the liz Myth people will see through that in a minute...we must rewrite.

Anyway, I also remember talking about the length of Isabelle's hair in the Tessovisions. This conversation between Max and Liz during Balance always just struck me as proof that there was something up with those visions:

MAX: I remember the first time I saw Michael. It was in the desert the night we first came out of the pods. The sky was bright with stars and this full moon. Isabel and I found each other first. We didn't know how to speak, but we could communicate anyway. We walked for a while, but we could both feel someone else.

LIZ: Michael.

MAX: He said he saw us, but that he was afraid. So he just watched us for a long time. When he finally revealed himself, he was standing on this rock. Just like you'd expect from Michael. "Here I am. Deal with me." He said it was the hardest thing he's ever had to do...to trust us.

LIZ: So, um, how did you guys end up getting separated?

MAX: We all saw the headlights at the same time. Isabel took my hand. We knew we'd be safe as long as we stayed together. I held my hand out for Michael. I knew he wanted to. He just wouldn't take it. So we just looked at each other for a long time. Wouldn't see him again for 3 years. Isabel would cry every night, wondering where he was.

So, either they all walked out of the pod chamber together, completely forgot that they had seen each other inside and then things unfolded as Max described above, or those visions are a complete joke.

I hate to say it, because I really did start to like Tess. I love Tess with Kyle, and I love her inclusion with the Valentis and I think I might actually be upset at this point if she turns out to be evil.

Anyway, can someone good in science expand on that Light Cone theory?

{~}:}

Meta: Girl you need to take a bow for all the amazing research you posted.
I think Qfanny is right about the Granolith looking like a dimensional hyperbola, however my calculus is rather rusty also, any takers on this one?
What do the RBI's do during a long Roswell dry spell?, why we educate are selfs of course.

roswelldiva: You are definitely the RBI cheerleader, if you keep up with all the complaiments we are only going to love you more.

Adrian: You look so good standing next to Jason. So was he all sweaty when you took this pic?

huggybehr: I hope your wrong about them tossing out all of season one. But I do have to admit it sure looks like it at this point. What I don't understand is why TPTB are exploring Tess's human side when they said all along that season two was about exploring their alien side???????

GraceKel & Starbox: I have also assumed that TPTB will tie in the two seasons "eventually." It's just very sad that they might never get the chance to. I can't believe how little they have given us in season two. At this time last year the board was jumping with theories. This year every one seems to be in a haze, the writers included.

Evid

I think Nasedo was TRYING to get Max captured. It is the only thing that makes sense. He "rescues" Liz after she tells Max she will not leave without him. He has to get Liz out so Max will be left alone to get captured. Then we know that Nasedo immediately infiltrates the FBI unit by shapeshifting - but he is not doing anything to HELP Max. I think he wanted Max to get interrogated so that he could find out about the granolith.

I'm glad you posted this, I've always distrusted Harding's actions in this episode. Why was the FBI agent following him in the first place? Why did Harding speak to him like he knew him? 'I'm glad it's one of you, I need to get a message to agent Pierce' (paraphrased). Remember the smirk by Pierce when he saw the security camera picture of Max, having just spoken to the real Max in the jeep outside the police station? I always suspected that Harding and Pierce were working together never sure why, but to find the location of the granolith could be a good reason.

Evid, I also hope I'm wrong about the writers having dismissed things that happened in season 1. But remember Max's line to Tess in MITC 'all you've ever done is support me and I don't know what I've done to earn your loyalty' (paraphrase). Was I the only person shouting at the screen? I don't think Tess will turn out to be the baddie, because her character has become popular. She will either turn out to be the unwitting tool of others to grab power or the writers have just decided to rewrite her as a good guy.

You read my mind! Gawd, could that boy GET any cuter!?

Just taking a quick break from reviewing a contract to catch up. Met - love your new avatar!

Adrian - cute picture with JB, and enjoyed reading your description of what went on! So - did you wash your hand for any time soon afterwards??

I too hope that Season One will not be discarded, but I don't think it will - ultimately! I (Pollyanna that I am) believe that JK is an excellent storyteller, and that (TPTB or not) he will tie it all up and bring everything around. We just have to be patient! And if we get a Season Three - which I'm truly hoping for!! - I think more of what we speculate about here will be drawn into the storyline and explored!! (How's that for a truly optimistic slant on things! )

Also - Welcome Newbies and Lurkers! This is the place to spend those dreadful weeks without new episodes!!

Back to work!!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

[/B]

I always assumed that they found the kids on the side of the road -- and then went through the proper channels to adopt them, which would've meant turning them over to the state, the kids being put in an orphanege...then finally the Parkers coming to get them.

I just assumed that this happened...they never said it.

{~}:}

Alexis - About the orphanage and roadside thing, I figured that the Evans did pick them up on the side of the road, but they couldn't adopt them right away. They needed to go through the "system" and make sure that their real parents couldn't be found first. Then they could go get them at the orphanage. I don't know, maybe that is me reading into the writer's work.

About Tess, I do have to agree with GraceKel. Leopards don't change spots. (Unless, of course, the writers decide to repaint them.) The writers sure have been trying hard to get us to like her this season which makes me very suspicious.

Anyway, I haven't been here in a while because my sister has been visiting for several weeks now. I decided to try and convert her to Roswell. Can you believe she doesn't get the WB where she lives? Oh boy! Well, I'm happy to report she's hooked now. It didn't take long. You know, TPTB really ought to reshow the Pilot. It explains so much for those who started viewing in the middle. The other good thing is she's hooked on M/L and I didn't even push it. Nope, I kept my mouth shut as to where my feelings lie. The other cool thing was that she asked so many of the same questions we did after Season 1 finished. And now we're 4 eps into season 2 and she's asking "Where's Liz"! I can't wait to see her reaction after EotW. I better get the tissue box ready.

Adrian- Wow! What a great pic! I'm so jealous. You lucky girl. My, oh, my, he looks good naturally without all the tv makeup.

StarBox - I'm going to try this new address for the LN alternate ending animation. Let's hope it works.

It's so great to see you all again. I love this thread!

In the case of the Brow Chakra, or the Ajna Chakra, the location of the Royal Seal or the third eye, the positve archetype associated with it is the Intuitive, and the negative is the Intellectual.

The Intellectual rationalizes, intellectualizes and theorizes it's way through life, relying on plans, maps and future outcomes to control our lives. Hmm....sound like anybody we know? I think Liz definitely embodies some of the Intellectual archetype, and I think one of her biggest challenges since the Pilot has been learning to let go and follow her heart. To embody more of the "Intuitive" archetype. Max brings this out in her.

The Intuitive knows about the necessity of experiencing change and sometimes the terrible emotional stress that accompanies it in order for people to grow. (this was taken word for word from this book -- does anybody recognize Max from the Eraser Room?.) The Intuitive lives from a place of deep trust, which requires an impeccable sense of trust and love for life to know that it will see you through painful and difficult times. The Intuitive archetype has both these qualities as well as patience and faith. It knows that things are not always what they appear to be on the surface and it accepts both the fragility and strength of human nature.

When talking about Balance, it seems to me this is just another example of how Liz and Max balance each other out. If you think of the Royal Seal metaphorically, in this case as being the symbol of a King, or leader, and take into consideration it's physical location on Max's body...and you think about Max and Liz, it seems that they each had a huge part in bringing out the other aspect in each other's personality so that the brow chakra (the royal seal) would be in balance. Maybe Max needs Liz to be a better King than he was on Antar? Yin/Yang...soulmates?

Liz, before Max healed her and revealed her secret, was definitely a girl in control. She knew what she wanted and how she was going to get there. Max changed everything about that when he healed her. Max trusted his Intuitive side to heal Liz, why? "It was you". This initial event exposed him and eventually forced him to confront the fact that he was engineered. There was a plan and a purpose for his existence, as well as the other podsters. During the course of Max's HJ, Liz has often been the catalyst, or the voice of reason, leading them to solve the problem and move onto the next adventure. The Intellectual balancing out the Intuitive.

In any case, it was the writers who brought in the whole Kyle-Buddha angle, so they've got to be aware of some of this stuff,right?

I hope I explained this well, because when I was thinking about it, it sure made a lot of sense to me...

Smiles,
{~}:}

I think Nasedo was TRYING to get Max captured. It is the only thing that makes sense. He "rescues" Liz after she tells Max she will not leave without him. He has to get Liz out so Max will be left alone to get captured. Then we know that Nasedo immediately infiltrates the FBI unit by shapeshifting - but he is not doing anything to HELP Max. I think he wanted Max to get interrogated so that he could find out about the granolith...Starbox, all of what you say makes perfect sense except if the writers don't want it to be that way anymore. So, we can't just take the episode at face value. At the Roswell Primer 'it is written' thus: quote:...Wanting to flush out Pierce, Nasedo takes the form of Max and kidnaps Liz. Once on the road, Nasedo-Max leaves clues as to where he can be found. Liz soon realizes the man she's with is not the real Max...
Max goes after Nasedo-Max not trusting he won't hurt Liz in his quest to draw out Agent Pierce. Max follows their clues to a carnival outside of Roswell.The problem we have is that TPTB killed off Nasedo rather than resolving whether or not he was basically 'good' or 'evil.' Meanwhile, they have left us with changling Tess. It would probably have been easier if they had killed off Tess in MITC and brought on Ava as a permanent character. But that would have nixed the main obstacle in the Max/Liz relationship which would have made it a happily-ever-after-end-of-series show, which we certainly don't want and are therefore grateful did not happen.

I still have to catch up on this thread, but I'm doing a drive-by to show you my latest Liz Myth animation. I really hope you all like it! I call it gran-o-liz to sort of represent that Liz as the Royal Queen and as the Keeper of the Granolith! If you notice too on the pinwheel transition effect I made 5 points to the pinwheel! ... (I hope it's not too large and takes too long to download. When I saved it I condensed the quality to help make up some time! )

GraceKel, You're absolutely right about the happily-ever-after formula. Unfortunately I think the writers are as stressed with deadlines as I was feeling when I posted that from my workplace (DSL) before heading home. Hence, I don't think the writers are thinking this through very clearly. The hints of chemical conflicts in SH were much less tortuous than the Triangle.

Thanks! That is really cool That could definitely fit with all the number 5 theories!

Lots of Love,
SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

I just talked to Qfanny (the site's co-creator) and we are going to need help getting Season II's theories sorted out, boiled down, and edited.

Met - You've given me so much to work with for the Intro!!

Also - welcome all!!

Night all!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Ok, the Dreamer/Myther in me is coming out here.
How many of us Dreamers sigh when Max and Liz touch forheads or when Max kissed Liz on the forhead?
Now for the Myth part. Where is the third eye located? That's right, the center of the forhead, were Max loves to make contact with Liz. This begin on the Pilot when he told Liz, "now my life is in your hands." I posted some pics for my Dreamer heart and also because the Mythers need proof.

Pilot

Riverdog

Balence (my all time favorite)

4sq.

M2M

Alright Dreamers we can stop sighing now. I sure do miss those tender moments when Max was so gentle with Liz. Will we ever see this agian?

Evid

Adrian—great animation!

Thanks, Evid for those pictures of Max and Liz touching foreheads. I love all those pics!

Offscreen lights set up a background reflection in the form of a bright line at Liz's eye level. (Only a faint extension of the line is visible here, to the right of Max). Thus, when Liz backs up abruptly (to go confront Tess), this bright light is unblocked -- the effect is as if a burst of light emanates from her eyes. What are the mythical implications of this?

Evid

OK, could you prepare me next time - I'm actually CRYING at work! Not a good sign for the boss!

I just wanted to throw this out there before the panel. It goes along with the theory that Tess isn't who they are making her out to be. But hey, we've been disscussing this backwards and forwards for forever, what's another thought!

I don't know if this has already been meantioned or discussed when Destiny first aired or not, but I just noticed this last night when Behr'sVenus, my brother(who is being reconverted) and I were watching it.

When they are in the pod chamber and setting off the orbs, the color of the light is a pinkish/purple. But in SH, when Max and Liz find the orb the light is a blue/white color. Has anyone else noticed this?

And they focused hard on Tess' face and her concentration. I don't think that she is evil, but I do believe that she is and will be a pawn. And that she doesn't know it. That would work better then her actually being evil. At least in my opinion.

Evid, thank you for those 'dreamy' pictures. I really miss those tender moments too

Steph: Im so sorry, next time I have an emotional post I'll be sure to add, *WARNING* TISSUE ALERT FOR STEPH. BOSS MUST BE OUT OF OFFICE BEFORE CONTINUING.

Nemo: I think I know what your hinting at. So your thinking that Liz might also have Max's symbol that was shown on MITC on her forehead, would this make Liz the true bride? Tess did seem scared when she thought she might be tested. Their would be nothing but empty space if she was, sorry, no bashing intended, but you know what I mean.
I always wondered why he kissed her with such intensity on the forehead and not on the lips. It's almost like he needed to assure him self that their connection, the symbol, the third eye, all three would protect her from Tess.

Evid

GREAT! Except *I'M* the boss!

Ahhh shucks Evid . I'll come up with a special geek cheer for us . I really only say it cause you guys are all really nice and smart . This is probably my favorite thread next to a few drooling ones *cough* that also capture serious interest ...

Metaphysical : Ok well since no one bit the light cone thing I'll spill what I have.

I'll post this awesome Adrian piece for reference...and just cuz it looks cool ...

If you look closely at the granolith here I think that what they have is the grey part some kind of material that maniupulates energy or something maybe a chunk of some ateroid from the firs planet who knows. And the crystl might be some extra huge perfect diamond thats like impossible to find anywhere else not to mention priceless...

There is no doubt that Einstein's equations contain theortical time-travel possibilities and one of the candidates is the Gobel rotating universe (this is where the light cones work) equation for space-time.

Taking on relativity assume that each light cone here is a different person with their own future (top of the cone) present (middle point) and past (bottom of cone). From person or location A, only events located inside the future light cone-events that are timelike-separated from event A-are accessible to travelers that obey the Einstein speed limit (light speed). To reach events B or C, a person starting from event A would have to travel FTL (faster than light speed).

A normal person couldn't really physically withstand the FTL pressure. I dunno if any of you saw Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory but there is a scene in that movie towards the end where they break apart all the particles and when they rearrange them back they came back smaller. In truth what would happen is the person would come back umm... "not in one piece" .

Eistein was really more of a conceptual theorist than an excellent mathematician so he had some of his theories proven with help of other people as is the light cone. So you really gotta give kurt Godel credit for the light cones (he did the math for it)--even though its not his idea he discovered the solution to E's equation that describes a universe in which the tendency for collapse due to gravitational self-attraction is exactly balanced by the centrifugal force due to universal rotation. In English this just means that wherever you go in the universe, the stars seem to be rotating about you as the center.

Then because of the speed-of-light limit accessible future space-time then forms a region called "future light cone" (with everything you can hope to go) but it also contains "past light cone" (everything you know) in the same person where all space-time regions to the past can send messages to the future & vise-versa. Together, the past and future light cones contain all of space-time that is of physical relevance to this present moment.

So this is called the "Godel Universe" model :
( my crappy diagram )

here the light cones are tilted by a rotation-induced twist in space-time, traveler A can take a trip into the future, travel around a circular path (the yellow line ) and end up in his own past without ever going FTL in a closed time loop.

Thinking about how many people make up one memory that took place and looking at this makes you really see how hard it would be to make something that happened not go back to the original natural path it was supposed to take.

Using the same geometry and spin idea in Godel's Universe, a physicist called Frank Tiper showed that you don't even have to rotate the entire universe to acheive time-travel. Similar to the light cones he argues that if you could get an object like a massive skyscraper at near-light speed you could create the same product by spinning in such a way that centrifugal forces balance gravitational attraction by finally tilting the object like the light cones.

Can you imagine how cool that granolith room would look if they make everything spin that fast ? Thats also the logic behind why you always see sci fi ufos spinning as they move front and back . Hope that made sense . Its hard to explain in anything less than a thesis-long paper .

my random silliness:
When Tess doing her visions and get interrupted we can hear spetcific sound.
(in destiny when Kyle start speak whith FBI agent).
This sound we can heard in podchamber when Izabel "remembering" and she realized something weird and she said

ISABEL: No. No. No, I don’t believe this.

Im think she don't belive WHAT she remembering not bc she don't belive pods (they all are known this long time) - she don't belive this memory show - this is freak to her.
sry. gram.

my random silliness:
When Tess doing her visions and get interrupted we can hear spetcific sound.
(in destiny when Kyle start speak whith FBI agent).
This sound we can heard in podchamber when Izabel "remembering" and she realized something weird and she said

ISABEL: No. No. No, I don’t believe this.

Im think she don't belive WHAT she remembering not bc she don't belive pods (they all are known this long time) - she don't belive this memory show - this is freak to her.
sry. gram.

Vihmakass: You bring up agood point here.
Have you all noticed what a strange look Tess gets when Alex tells Iz to Dream walk Max on M2M. She sounds really surprised that Iz could do this. Maybe Iz is more sensative to Tess using her mindwarps, both of them have mental powers and Iz must know when Tess is mindwarping.

Evid

I wonder how much of what we saw since EOTW would have still happened if Future Max hadn't come back.

And I wonder about the possibility that Max's vision of his wedding to Liz in VLV isn't the universe trying to reset itself to it's proper place.

Zero- you do an amazing job on the intro

and Met i loved your post on the third eye.

well thats all i have for today thanks for letting me ramble.

aparently even the editor is aware of the lack of consistency in the episodes.
Plus they have clips of scens with fast flashes.
Well just wanted to let you guys know in case you are wondering the link is a crashdown.com

I'm at home now on my slo-mo modem, but Liz is at the top! But, please, no negative negative comments just because there is so far one more of Tess than Liz. They don't even have Max up at all yet???

Okay, in answer to the question:
"With everything that goes on, how do you get through a day of school?"
Liz seems really focused on academics (what? no 'would you like Max with that?" )
While I suspect from the eye twinkle that Kyle's meditations are not quite ascetic.

And after hearing Liz's response to:
"What are your plans after high school?"
I think Harvard should give both Shiri and Liz an honorary degree.

ISABEL: No. No. No, I don’t believe this.

Im think she don't belive WHAT she remembering not bc she don't belive pods (they all are known this long time) - she don't belive this memory show - this is freak to her.
sry. gram.

Well, I went back to check, I didn't hear the sound when Isabel went into the pod chamber, but then again, we don't hear the sound when Tess mindwarps Isabel at the Eagle Rock military base. It was also interesting that Tess didn't deny it when Isabel accused her of using her mindwarp skills to make Max have those visions of her.

Rewatching these episodes I was really struck by just how creepy and suspicious both Tess and Ed Harding were. Recalling a JK interview in which he said the aliens 'gifts' reflect their personalities, perhaps Tess doing the full 360 is not so unlikely after all. I'm wondering if the kidnap and rescue of Max was about getting Tess close to the pod squad. Although she knows the location of the granolith I think she needs Max to make it work, so her mission isn't complete.

Shapeshifter, I checked out Liz's interviews. Poor Liz almost everything she says revolves around Max. Even throwing herself into her school work is clearly to avoid thinking about him. I fear she's going to lose it. I'm really looking forward to hearing from Max now.

OT, now that I've made over 500 posts, I'd like to get a custom avatar. Could someone PM me how to do it? P.S. my computer skills are pretty limited.

Long time lurker first post. The most consistant thing from season1 to season2 is the suspicious way they handled Tess. The stange looks and gestures this season. why give her a power to decieve? I can't see any point of Surprise and WO other than to cast more doubt about her. Why was she so suspicious of Courtney who seem alot more loyal and trust worthy, and proved it to the death? In MITC why did she seem to wanted to Max tell Lonnie about the Granolith, why did't she tell Max to turn do that stupid deal. Oh and of course, "I don't know" "I don't know" "I don't know." The writers have done a perfect job building up a conspiricy thoery with her. If the actually ignore the last six and confrim that she is the bride and the 4th podster it would be the most flat,anti-climatic, letdown I've ever seen. She makes a much better villain than any thing eles.If she is so, in with love Max initally why does she not want them to rescue in WR? When Nasedo is capture she goes into a panic? And now are we really supose to forget everthing they built-up in for the HC and VLV, not likley.

I can't see how they expect us to think Tess and Nasedo are good after TLV. If Nasedo had been looking for the podsquad for years why is the first thing he says after s seeing one is "Why is she here." Why on Earth would anyone want to draw out the FBI? Why did he kill all those people. And hesitate with Pierce for like 5min. he could have killed him 8 times. One more time why kidnap liz? Please tie on thing up.

DDD

I also had major issues with the whole "firestorm" mindwarp thingy from Tess! First - I think that Maria's removal of the phalic symbol from the sign was what cased the end of the timewarp and brought the humans back - not Tess' firestorm burst! Second - Tess' ability had always been presented as illusion (you think what you see is happening, but it is not) - so how come all of a sudden it became reality - enough to scorch the Skins (except Nikko) and leave all else (podsters) and custodian around the corner untouched? It did not add up - unless there is more to it than meets the eye - which is very possible! Either Tess is very Bad (in a deceptive way that maybe she doesn't even know) or a warrior sent to protect the Royal 4 (again without her current knowledge)?? I'm hoping that by the end of the season we get something that ties it together - but I wanted you to know that you are not alone.

Also - I too think Max was having visions "through" Liz's eyes. Ummm....!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Actually, I always assumed that the energy backlash from breaking the timefield was what powered Tess' firestorm. The timing would be right. As to whether she was waiting for that moment b/c she knew that she would be able to use that energy, or if it just happened--I still maintain that the reason she did it in the first place was b/c Nicholas was about to get real info on the granolith from Max's mind, not b/c of any concern for Max.
~Tas

As for the light cone and Einstein's theory of relativity and the possibility of time travel, Bravo! And thanks to roswelldiva for the elaboration I have only one comment to make at this time (I need to let it all soak in ): supposedly UP is for the future, and DOWN is for the past. But FMax went to the past, and he definitely went UP in the granolith. Now, for all I know the granolith could be inverted, but that difference caught my attention

StarBox Nasedo wanting Max to get caught & interrogated in order to get info about the granolith is a great theory. Playing decoy made sense to me, and I could stretch it to see taking Liz as a hostage, but it NEVER made sense that he rescued Liz and left Max there. Although, the last time that I watched this I thought that perhaps he did it b/c of what Liz said about being changed--maybe he realized her true importance after that (notwithstanding the sneering expression ). Maybe a changed Liz is more important than an intact King. I also think that he was extremely confident of his ability to get Max out of the WR; I'm just not sure what that means

shapeshifter "Changeling Tess" This reminds me of the old folklore about fairy changelings being substituted for the real children. I'll have to go look at my books for more details (and I think I still have my class notes on this too), but this would actually be a really good analogy for Tess. She could be the changeling substituted for the real bride--something that many of us think is already true.

WR Very intriguing fanfic, and a really ambitious endeavour. I the forrmat. bluecornmoon is very good at encouragement, isn't she?

Evid I'm still over what you said in Cherishing

Adrian Great pic & experience--I'm so jealous! I noticed that it's part of your avatar now

That's all my thoughts for now I may not be around too much for the next little bit; my company filed for bankruptcy yesterday morning so as of yesterday at 5 p.m. I became unemployed. :sigh: I detest jobhunting. The silver lining is that I had already started casually looking for something else, so now I just have that much more impetus to do something about it!
~Tas

And Tasyfa, Good Luck with your job hunting!

****AND PLEASE EVERYONE: CLICK! THOSE ADS WITH THE OL' ONE-TWO: Right-click, 'open link in new window'

Redhawk - I am about to update your animation :-)

As for the new silverhandprint stuff - two things immediately jumped out at me.
They are both from Tess interviews - in the "what was your challenging moment" interview Tess says it was heartbreaking to loose Nasedo BUT that it made her a stronger person because she realized "I could keep doing what I was doing before without him". So - WHAT WAS SHE DOING BEFORE??? What were they doing TOGETHER before??????? Because their story is that they were 1)running from the FBI and 2) looking for Max/Michael/Isabel and Tess doesnt have tpo do EITHER of those things now - so what is she doing that she did before??????????????? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Second - Tess calls Ava a "slut" and clearly disliked her STRONGLY - If Ava is closer to the Antar-essence it is odd that Tess would have such a strong dislike of her - and would use words like "slut" to describe her.....

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Over on the latest silverhandprint update announcement thread liaso has posted some transcriptions for those of us with snail Internet connections.

Well - if it refers to dress - Tess calling Ava a slut would be like the pot calling the kettle black. But seriously - I have an email friend that lives in Autralia - I'll ask her what "slut" means down under!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

What does she mean by it "ruins everything"? That strikes me as a very, very odd choice of words. As if SHE has a plan that Nicolas will potentially "ruin". Think back to her interrupting Nicolas and Isabel in Harvest and the interaction between Nicolas and Tess at the end of Wipeout. Those couples with her comment about him "ruining everything" - I have to go back and say WHAT is she up to?? And what is it she was doing with Nasedo that she is "keeping doing" now??? What plan could Nicolas "ruin"?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

nothing much to add just checking in see what's new. I was reading that comment about Ava and it does seem bizarre, but maybe thats just her lingo . She is weird.

Starbox : you're back ! had you even been gone for long/ LOL it just seems like you hadn't been here in a while .

Nermal : thank.u soo much for the compliment but I'm was just expanding the light cone stuff for metaphysical ! she's the one who came up with it

I added the bolding. This would seem to confirm that Tess feels torn about being with Max too--like she should, but she's not sure anymore if she wants to be. I was saying elsewhere that now that Nasedo is gone, Tess is developing a backbone and a mind of her own, and she may realize that she deserves more than what Max can give her in this lifetime--no matter what they were to each other before.

shapeshifter I do think her conditioning makes her strongly protective of Max; I'm afraid I didn't word myself very clearly. It happens And what you said actually ties in really well to the excerpt above, too. If Tess realizes that in order for Max to be a better person, a better King, Liz is the one he needs...she may be able to let go of him for good (Please! ). And thanks for the luck
~Tas

I can't say too much because for the hiatus I am spoiled...

But it is my understanding that these interviews were done during the filming of an upcoming episode. That's all this girl is saying. At least tonight. Will be back tomorrow to try and add something to the Einstein Time-Space/Granolith theories. If I even can..

{~}:}

Keep posting!
-Samantha

Keep posting!
-Samantha

Thanks for stopping by Zero's thread!

I have something I would like considered, if you all can fit it in. It's something that has bothered me for a few weeks now.

Remember those scenes where certain individuals are being watched, and the vision is somehow 'distorted'? I remember the discussions commenting how it was apparent that the 'viewer' was somehow invisible, as even when the 'viewee' looked straight at the 'viewer', they would not see anything amiss.

In MttM, when Max finds the Pod Chamber, and they (the pod squad) all enter, remember what happens when Isabel, Max and Michael leave? Edcedo 'emerges' from the rock wall, obviously having used some shapeshifting power to blend with it. Could he use this same ability to blend with other objects, such as Desert surroundigs, brick walls or automobiles?

So, is it possible that another shapeshifter is the 'viewer', watching the Podsters? If so, why has he not made himself known to them? Is he friendly? Why was he watching Maria and Liz?

Thanks for the feed back about my fic. I am now posting Book 2 on my Web Site. Feel free to drop in, and read the latest installment. I would love to hear your thoughts, but don't fill up the thread, instead, PM, or e-mail me. Its at:
WR's Fanfic

Thanks,
WR

The only thing wrong with this theory, is that Courtney was with Michael at the time this would've occurred. Remember, she was trying on the skin at his apartment? Then she went with him to the Crashdown...

I also thought it was a skin, especially given the description of the skin's visual and sensory abilities on www.silverhandprint.com (Whitaker's journal). However, it never made sense to me that it was a skin...because wouldn't they have confronted the two? Also, wouldn't they have gone back to Nicholas and reported that they saw them? Nicholas never gave any indication that he knew there were folks roaming about. And because Whitaker was working for Nicholas, you would reason that Nicholas would've known about Liz through her. Whitaker knew she was friends with the others...yeah, that never did add up for me.

Anyhow, that's just my thought. It would be nice to think that TPTB would go back and close up that loose thread -- but I doubt it. I think it would be great if it did turn out to be the other protector, or someone else who we will be introduced to in the future. Yup, that would be my wish. I have to go add that to the other 200 items on my wish list for TPTB!!

{~}:}

Liz: Well just the fact that we do have this real connection and there's this fire and there's energy between us and you don't really want to give up on something until you feel like it's reached it's full potential and I don't think Max and I have yet.

Love Liz's response...fire and energy between us. Maybe I wasn't so far off the mark with my Chakra speculations?

So, what happens when Max and Liz's fire and energy reach the full potential? Does the Granolith activate?

{~}:}

I think they did those interviews during heart of mine. Did you notice that they are all in formal wear?

I think there is a lot of foreshadowing in those interviews.

You may ask yourself, "Why are they asking those questions?" and "What can the answers given mean for their future"

I found them very interesting, especially Tess's answer to "What answers are you looking for?"

Why did the shapeshifter (I am assumming tictac) keep the podsters from getting the orb from topolsky? The next move was then Edscedo posing as Max and taking Liz. Why would the shapeshifter allow the second Orb to fall back into the hands of Agent Pierce when he could have easily taken it from Topolsky?

Sorry someone's thought earlier of Edscedo's reaction to Iz showing up at the house made me think.

I think that there are definately some unanswered questions with the second shapeshifter.

What about Tess's comment about "It scares me to think that I could have turned out that way (like Ava)" That really made me think. Maybe she was supposed to.
I have always wondered if Edscedo was really the protector of the dupes and tic tac was pod squad's protector? Ava's role in the Dupe four is so different than Tess's. WHY?

I really feel that they have not told us enough about Tess.

Wow that was long, but you guys always make me think.

RoswellDiva - yup - I had been gone :-) - I had a week of real life commitments that got in the way of Roswell obsessing!!

Re: The Interviews - I agree that they are foreshadowing futre eppies. The most interesting thing to me was that I watched them with the question "Is Tess hiding something???" in my mind and the interviews STRONGLY support Tess-suspicions.
Her saying Nicolas "just ruins everything".
You say that about someone who is working towards something you are IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
For example - if I were working to accomplish some goal - and someone was trying to SUBVERT me and cause a mutiny or stir up dissention - I might say "they ruin everything". If they were actually trying to ASSASINATE me or kill my people (as Nicolas supposedly is) - I would NOT say "they just RUIN everything".
Also - her comment about "realizing she could do what she was doing before without Nasedo" - again - since we know she is no longer running from the FBI or looking for the podsters - exactly WHAT is she doing??
Also - all her insistence that she needs answers about the home planet.....wouldnt Nasedo have told her??? In S1 she said "she could tell M/M/I EVERYTHING they needed to know". SO - what is up with that?? Another GLARING Tess inconsistency.
And - of course - her strong dislike of Ava...weird. Did Ava not want to get in that car when she saw Tess was coming along??? Did she "have" to leave town because Tess was coming back???

DawsonsDiva - welcome to the best Roswell board :-) - I used to watch Dawsons Creek until they screwed the mythology and history and created the hideous LOVE TRIANGLE.

BTW - have you all seen the Rebels thread title - do I sense that we may threaten them a bit???? I hear that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Wow it was strange that we were discussing the evil Tess from last season and then the interviews come out and confrimed are distrust in her. I agree with everyone that posted, if you read between the lines you can tell she is hiding something. I mean calling Ava a slut, I just thought that was way out there. I think TPTB are slowly beginning to pull out that rug. I just know the RBI's won't be the ones who end up on their backsides.

When Liz was asked about how the Dupes effected her life, she mentioned Rath but not Ava. You would think she would have. I mean Ava did inform Liz of her change and by doing so helped save Max. What is Liz trying to tell us by not mentioning her? Maybe that she does not think of Ava as a Dupe. So if Liz thinks Ava is not, does she think Tess is? Is Liz beginning to use her power to see the evil with in? We might just get a cat fight after all.

Evid

I was thinking about why Max/Isabel and Zan/Lonnie are so insistant on being brother and sister. In the Metz books, it is very obvious they are siblings because they shared the pod. Now, in the TV show, we assume that Max/Isabel and Zan/Lonnie each had their own pod right???

We already question the accuracy of the vision of the hatching Max seems to recall at the end of MttM. He does hatch from his own pod. But if it's a Tessavision, well, who knows what really happened.

What if because of leaky pod, they (escorts) moved one of the hatchlings to share the same pod? Zan and Lonnie shared, explains why we see only three pods in MITC;

It seems possible to me that they could introduce more podsters if they wanted to... And also, do the pods themselves look reusable?

Why did the shapeshifter (I am assumming tictac) keep the podsters from getting the orb from topolsky? ...To prevent alerting the Skins to their whereabouts (when the orbs/Mommogram were activated)?

I've been MIA this weekend, and I have to thank Roswell Diva for her excellent description of the light cones. I also have to let it sink in a bit.

Tasyfa - Reality first - Good Luck with thw job search! We would all give you a good rec!

I have yet to listen/read the interviews, and will have to make time for it cuz I have to see if I can identify any clues or connections! I love the quote from Liz about what keeps bringing her back to Max!

Whoever mentioned the fact that maybe Iz's "gift" being a mental power may have made her suspecious of Tess - well I was thinking the same thing about Liz. Liz's ability to have visions - a mental ability - may make her distrust of Tess be based in that ability, and therefore, more trustworthy???

Sirena and DDD - Welcome out of Lurkdom! Sirena - where did you find the comments by the editors? I would love to read that. And DDD - I agree - I don't trust Tess or Harding. Unless I'm supposed to ignore all that happened in those last 6 episodes, there were too many clues that they weren't totally to be trusted.

WR - Hi! I too have always thought that Tic Tac is a shapeshifter separate and unique to Harding, and that the being whose eyes we are "seeing" through could very well have been Tic Tacs. I think that TT was damaged/injured some how - thus, the pill popping, AND that TT is watching over the podsters and LIZ. TT always seemed to show up to help in Season 1 - but never revealed him(assuming TT has a gender)self. I think the writers are missing a big opportunity if they don't use this interesting character that they created in Season 1. Remember - TicTac is NOT Harding. AND who knows if Harding was Nasedo?? That has never been confirmed.

Miss LParker - welcome, too! I think that TT prevented the podsters from meeting up with Topolsky BECAUSE he KNEW it was a trap - and that they would be caught with the found pod in hand, giving Pierce both pods and all the podsters (or "true" podsters in my book), to boot (or torture). I think he somehow had inside information that Pierce was tracking Topolsky, and monitoring her contacts with the podsters. SO MANY LOOSE ENDS!!

StarBox - I can relate to family reality interfering with Roswell Obsession! BTW - I missed the Rebel title??? I'll have to find what they posted!

Qfanny - I like your train of thought about the shared pods! I too read the books, but forgot this little detail, and have always wondered HOW they KNEW they were bro/sis when they have no memory, etc. Good theory/catch!

Finally, I saw a musical Friday night - "1776" - about the politics, etc. that when on to get the Declaration of Independance written and adopted. It was excellent, and made me think - why would anyone support a Monarchy? And if Max were King of Antar - could the change he was trying to bring about have threatened the ruling class on his planet and the other four? Some day I hope they get into the politics and social structure of the planet - have do it in WELL THOUGHT OUT way! It would be so cool ! Interesting to thing that a civilization so advanced it could combine DNA from different species (though maybe closely related long-ago and far-away ) and send the hybrids to be born on a planet light years away - but they still have a social structure that accomidates an apparently powerful single ruler! Ummm....???

Night All!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

I was looking at screen caps today and one of Michael and Maria made me think of something. We are always wondering what would happen if Liz walked in the Granolith chamber? I always thought that it would light up or something. As I looked at the pic of M/M it seemed like the writers were saying, "ok let's have M/M test the Granolith by holding hands." I mean Michael and Maria hold hands and in this manner? It looks like they are beginning a ceremony. It's just out of character for them. Maybe it's not just Liz that sets off the Granolith, maybe it's Max and Liz joining hands that does.
One other thing, Tess was very sure of her self on MITC when she told Max Liz was never in the Granolith chamber. Now why would Tess be so sure? It's not like she would have been informed if Liz had been there. Now once again what is Tess hiding? Will Tess know as soon as Liz and Max do enter, will it be a major event?

TEOTW, The Granolith sends Max off once Liz touchs his hand. (they do touch hands, I just couldn't find a pic.)

M/M holding hands in the chamber on Sof47, nothing happens.

Evid

I'm crawling out of lurkdom now, and all I can say is wow. This thread is amazing...and I found it just when I've been dying to read some insights into all this stuff!!
I agree that Liz is and important part to the future, and I can't wait till they let us in on at least some part of what her place in all of this is..
So just saying hi, thanks to all for providing a place to discuss all this, it's so intriguing, I've been reading this thread for the past hour instead of studying for my final tomorrow!!

Oh, and Evid, how is the Granolith activated in EOTW in the first place (can't remember at the moment).

Night all!

QFanny - about the pod chambers.
Okay I will say it. I HATE THE POD CHAMBERS.
I just hate them, hate them, hate them.
Can they be reused? Well - they SHOULDNT be able to be reused because theoretically they should have been an organic organim. They LOOK like an organic organism - not like a technical "chamber" (such as what the husks were in). Also - they supposedly were filled with fluid that is gone now & if they were capable of regenerating - they shouldnt still look "ripped open" and the leaky pod would not have been an issue.
That said - I wouldnt be suprised if the writers all of a sudden made the pods reusable because everything else about them defies logic.
Here is a list of podchamber CHAADs:
*The pods appear to be organic - they seem to have grown along with the podsters. (They are smaller in S047) - if that is the case - then
how is it possible to seperate them (for the NY 4) and stick them on a dirty subway wall with no apparent energy source?)
*How were the NY 4 supposed to get down from their pods - that were perched 7 or 8 feet above the concrete floor??
*Were there even modern subways in 1947??? And what are the chances that no one would have stumbles across the pod chamber between 1947 and 1980 whatever???? Dont they do maitenece, renovation, security checks???

*Okay - all those can be answered by saying the dupes are not from "real" pods and the whole dupe thing was a set up to "dupe" Max - which I think is a good possibility*

But - talking about the Granolith chamber pods - it makes NO sense that the pods would still be around. If they are organic and have served their purpose (gestating the podsters) - then it would make sense for them to have rotted/disinigrated/dissolved. Its not very good planning to just leave a huge alien organism with no purpose on earth.
AND - if Tess and Harding knew where the podchamber was - why didnt they know where to look for the podsters????
AND - if the pod cave is supposed to be their alien "headquarters" (possibly why the pods dont break down or disintegrate) why didnt Nasedo/Tic-Tac/Mom leave the destiny book/orbs/cave map/healing stones in the pod cave???
AND - if the pods are organic "wombs" then the leaky pod podster can NOT be one of the four/eight - so who is an imposter??
AND - was Tess in the Tess-o-vision dead? Beacause the blond child floating in the water looked dead. Why were there air bubbles in the pod??? If they were providing air/oxygeb/some gas - they should have been coming from her nose and mouth - was it just a cool special effect?? Did all the kids look dead when they floated in the pod?? Because human fetuses have movement/responses.
AND - why would they drop the clue about the pods/fluid smelling like sulfur if it wasnt meant to connect them to Liz???
AND - why do the Parkers have a photo of the pod chamber/granolith chamber hanging in the Crashdown?

Ugh - have I mentioned that I HATE the pod chamber???

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

*REMINDER*
For those of you participating in the Season 1 Rerun Campaign, tonight we'll be watching 285 SOUTH. Please join us in posting your thoughts on this episode at the following links:

Roswell1: http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/006096.html

WB: http://talk.thewb.com/read.php?f=1&i65537&t=65537

Hope you all can join us. For more info on this campaign go to: http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum12/HTML/002531.html

Thanks
loribell & Dayneen

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox, you are just too funny. I have another CHAD for the NY pod chamber... They live underground in the subway? All year long? It's FREEZING in NY during the winter. And it's not much warmer in the subway.

I rewatched MITC last night and I have tons of comments/observations, and that was one of them. I'll be back later to post my thoughts on that eppy!

{~}:}

The CHADs thread archive is here:
http://members.nbci.com/roswellchads/index.htm

Oh, and Evid, how is the Granolith activated in EOTW in the first place (can't remember at the moment).

ZimaMaxx: Great to see you crawling out of lurkdom. It's always a big kick to get a newbie to start watching Roswell in a whole new light. I need to warn you though, once you do, it's hard to stop. As for how Max started up the Granolith?, it was with a crystal. He inserted it at the bottom of the Granolith.
At this point in the season I'm just hoping one the podster will remember that it's still out there. Maybe Maria will say something like, "hey are you guys even a little curious why Nichlous, Kivar, the Congresswomen, and all the other planets wanted the Granolith so badly, shouldn't you experiment with it or something?????" Then just maybe, if we are very lucky, Max will say," Oh that's right, I've been meaning to ask Liz again as to how she knew it was powerful, it just kept slipping my mind.

Max inserting the Crystal.

Evid

Could the phrase "Who's cheating who now" which appears to the right of Zan's picture be referring to Ava cheating on Zan on Antar.

Syndee

This is an interesting observation! “What is Tess up to?” has been something I’ve been questioning for a long while now!

As to the way Tess was raised, she must get her “protector” instincts from Nasedo, who was (supposedly) their protector. She knows how important, Max “The King” is to their people. Nasedo seemed very tight lipped about it all. He really hadn’t told Tess the whole Royal Four part of it. He could have told them all without them opening the orbs, but he didn’t. It was almost like he wanted them to set the orbs off. Nasedo is confusing in his behavior!

Starbox
Wonder Twin powers - ACTIVATE!

Form of an ice PTB! Ready to infiltrate the system to get our questions answered!

Zero I am sure Harding was Nasedo because he knew about Riverdog and the healing stones. I think something may have happened where Nasedo snapped and then killed Atherton.

Okay, I just have to say that Starbox and I are like twins in some of our thoughts! There are so many questions about the pod chamber, etc.

Max inserting the Crystal.

Evid

Quick thought about the crystal that activates the Granolith. The Healing Stones carry the Balance within them.

RIVER DOG: Nasedo gave me these stones. They're from his place. And they carry an energy inside them.

MAX: You mean, these are from...

RIVER DOG: Wherever you are from. He said that his body carried the same energy that's in these stones. He called it the balance. He said that the heat from the sweat disrupted it in some way.

My guess is that the crystal that activates the Granolith also carries the Balance inside of it, but in greater concentration.

Small theory, but I'm liking it.

{~}:}

These are improved so I am not sure that we can analyze these as canon.

I mean all Liz could say about the dupes is that she Had to kiss that guy. Yes Shiri had to kiss him but Liz was unexpectedly kiss by him. And she didn't say anything about Ava who helped her save Max and told her about how she was changed. HELLO. The one dupe who did affect her and she didn't say anything about it. I really think that we can draw some clues out but the read into too much would be foolish because the actors are just making it up as they go.

Something that has always bothered me is the lack of continuity with the skins. Nicholas said he was here to take Isabel/Vilandra back to Kivar, (I'm assuming this was the plan of all the skins in Copper Summmit?) but Congresswoman Whitaker seemed willing to kill Isabel in Surprise in order to locate the Granolith. Wouldn't killing Vilandra maybe, I don't know, anger Kivar just a little?

Are there any other skins, by the way? Didn't Courtney say she belonged to a group of Skins that followed Michael? Where are they? Are there other factions of Skins on Earth as well? Maybe Tess supporters? And how did Courtney so easily recognize Michael when Whitaker had trouble recognizing Isabel (as Vilandra) and even kidnapped Tess in her place? Now that I think about it, Whitaker was the only one who had this problem- in Harvest, Nicholas easily recognized Michael and Isabel, and then at Whitaker's funeral, Greer (I think that's his name) immediately knew who Max and Tess were, refering to them as 'the once and future King and his Bride'.

Tess- good points by everybody about her untrustworthyness- I've been wondering about her comments about Nicholas always ruining everything- is she really in league with Nicholas? (maybe he's come too close to blowing her cover or something, "ruining" their plans) Why else would Nicholas be the only one to survive the Fire Mind Warp in WO? Or is he? Maybe it wasn't a firestorm, and really just a mindwarp, but a mindwarp used on Max, Isabel, and Michael, making them see the Skins being destroyed, allowing the skins to escape? (Okay, that doesn't make sense, the Skins wouldn't want to escape since the Royal 4 were tied up and at the Skins' mercy, but it sounded cool. Unless it was all a plan to hide Tess's cover.) Anyway, I'm done babbling, keep up the good posting everyone.

Amazing stuff Roswelldiva! So...do you agree with my earlier theory that the Granolith looking like Einstein's Light Cone is no coincidence?

Thanks for the explanation!! Nobody else has jumped into this conversation -- come on, I know SOME of you guys are really good in science. What are your thoughts?

{~}:}

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Someone mentioned this on another thread and it got me to thinking. I don't remember who said it, but I thought it was worth mentioning here (sorry to whoever that person is!!)...

Starbox and WR What about the possibility that the person watching them is Tess?

Think about it -- in each one of the instances where this is shown it could've been her. Especially the scene in the school. That could've VERY easily have been Tess -- although part of me thinks that was a shapeshifter because that would explain the worker being in there -- someone shapeshifted into him.

Anyway, the other scene -- watching Maria and Liz? Tess walked into the Crashdown shortly after that happened. Unless I am crazy, that means she was out and about in Roswell at the same time this scene occurred. Since only the aliens and a few select humans remained in town, this can only mean it was either Tess or a Shapeshifter or a Skin.

So is Tess a Shapeshifter or a skin???

If TPTB don't tie up some of these loose ends I am going to go officially crazy....

Sigh...

{~}:}

RIVER DOG: Nasedo gave me these stones. They're from his place. And they carry an energy inside them.
MAX: You mean, these are from...
RIVER DOG: Wherever you are from. He said that his body carried the same energy that's in these stones. He called it the balance. He said that the heat from the sweat disrupted it in some way.

Think about this and Liz's comment in the interview about the "fire and energy" and potential in the connection created between her and Max. Max and Liz = THE BALANCE = the orb symbol.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

ZimaMaxx - Welcome to our thread! We always enjoy fresh input and insights! BTW - the Granolith looked like it was "activated" my the insertion of a tube of crystals, but Liz's outreach touch seemed somehow involved in the final "lift-off."

StarBox - thanks for the Rebel title! Funny!
Love your CHADS about the pod chamber! ITA! More loose ends! Think of the smell in that chamber!! :lo: It would probably make rotten eggs smell good. (Now weren't we discussing rotten eggs a while ago?)

PepperJackCandy - Shapeshifter and Qfanny handle our archives - so if it is okay with them, it is okay with me!

Evid - quote: At this point in the season I'm just hoping one the podster will remember that it's still out there. Maybe Maria will say something like, "hey are you guys even a little curious why Nichlous, Kivar, the Congresswomen, and all the other planets wanted the Granolith so badly, shouldn't you experiment with it or something?????" Then just maybe, if we are very lucky, Max will say," Oh that's right, I've been meaning to ask Liz again as to how she knew it was powerful, it just kept slipping my mind.

Too Funny!! ITA - again - this type of stuff could drive me nuts if I let it! Like I say in the intro about all the books and records they have access to Why don't they read this stuff! The curiousity factor with this group is none existent, and so out of character!

Syndee - That is a GOOD question. Of course, if Tess is who she believes herself to be, it is a possibility that Vilandra is not the only one that betrayed Zan on Antar!

Alexis - I'm still not convinced that Harding was Nasedo. Harding could have known that stuff without being Nasedo. What if Nasedo was another shapeshifter (i.e., Tic Tac) that had a HUGE falling out with Harding - and it was Harding that killed Atherton, with Nasedo attempting to save him?? There are so many holes there that I could go many ways. Anyone on the ship would have known about the healing stones, and Riverdog could have been known to more than one shapeshifter - and maybe someone's grandmother - like Liz's!

FMan608 - Welcome! I still think the "watcher" might be a shapeshifter - but it could be Serena or Tess (Met?)?? Time will tell if this loose end gets tied up.

Met - I'd jump into the Ligth Cone discussion, but I'm so ignorant with respect to this! But someone mentioned Up being the future and down being the past - and that Max went up - but ended up in the past. Well - I guess the real question is "Is towards the center of Earth towards the past and towards space towards the future? Cuz up and down don't really mean anything since up to me is down to someone on the other side of the world. I hope I'm not babbling. I think it is likely that the large cone would be affected by the energy crystals used to activate it and the energy drawn up through the diamond at the bottom. I also think Liz's presence was essential to activation - but then I'm biased! I just love the entire discussion - but don't be offended by the lack of intellectual discussion - I think it has more to do with lack of total understanding - and not wanting to sound dumb! Of course, I never worry about that - I'm sure I sound dumb all the time - but it helps get the thought process going!

StarBox - That is exactly what I thought when I reread that quote from RiverDog!!

Till Later!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
Sorry this is so long ...

I love all your theories, great or small (spoiled or unspoiled ) Meta

Forgive me if I ramble on a little bit here, but something I always thought was that the Granilith itself WAS "the balance" or the physical representation of it... an omnipotent sort of scale, which can be teetered to and fro depending on who's operating it?

I'm still on the boat of people who believe Liz is "the key" to the Granilith. Liz has also been deemed time and time again "Max's balance". Due to my Dreaminess (which tends to be in EPIC proportions)... Liz is Earth, Max is Antar... the Granilith itself binds them together (both are keys to the Granilith?). An Antarian alien device on Earth - possibly capable of destroying both worlds (which would be from my own perverse imagination?) - in the wrong hands... in the right hands (Max & Liz?) can save them?

Due to my gross laziness with this thread, I have no idea if the above has already been brought up. I hope to be a better Liz Myther in the future. I've been moonlighting over on the Mundo Fox forum. Liz Mything in Spanish is quite interesting

Melodious

Well, I'm skeptical about that. Liz was standing right there, after all... Who's to say Greer wasn't referring to her rather than Tess!

FMan608, you make good points about the ambiguities in the Niko/Tess storyline. The firewall could have been a mind warp! I'd never considered that. That would imply a Niko/Tess/Skins teaming, right? That's an interesting theory to ponder.

Zara
hesitant to acknowledge tess's importance to anyone's anything...

I don't know how many of you have AOL, for those who don't have to suffer with AOHell, I'm going to elaborate. When you sign off, you get a little "Goodbye from America Online!" sign off screen, blah blah. Well, on this screen there are little advertisements, sometimes selling stuff (click the link, you log back on and go to the merchant selling *whatever product* advertised) or for television shows that day/evening.... well I logged off just now and saw this....

quote:
Get Your Sci-Fi Fix: Don't miss Roswell tonight at 9PM ET on the WB.

I assume this is just something that's cycled through every month on Mondays to get AOLers to watch. Which is fine, however, anyone who'd try out ROS tonight are obviously going to get a rerun of the GILMORE GIRLS instead. This almost physically pained me, realizing how deeply I'm embedded in ROSWELL withdrawal! UGH

Back to your Liz Mything!

Melodious

Then last night, out of the stratosphere (so to speak), I dreamed about Max and Liz. I've only done that once before, so it's kind of a deal... Anyway, for whatever significance my subconscience has (read NONE) Max and Liz were happy and together! It was nice. Just a happy little dream about Liz and Max, although Isabel was trying to fix some problem on a spaceship and Max was watching her from another dimension -- he was frustrated with her because she wouldn't use her mind to fix the problem. Apparently he knew she was capable of greater powers than she commanded...

This, of course, is of NO significance to Alien Mythology whatever, unless we're willing to explore the effects of mythology on my subconsciousness, and I'm not willing...

Conclusion? I NEED A NEW EPISODE!!!!!!!

Evid - Too Funny!! ITA - again - this type of stuff could drive me nuts if I let it! Like I say in the intro about all the books and records they have access to [b] Why don't they read this stuff! The curiousity factor with this group is none existent, and so out of character!

Alexis - I'm still not convinced that Harding was Nasedo. Harding could have known that stuff without being Nasedo. What if Nasedo was another shapeshifter (i.e., Tic Tac) that had a HUGE falling out with Harding - and it was Harding that killed Atherton, with Nasedo attempting to save him?? There are so many holes there that I could go many ways. Anyone on the ship would have known about the healing stones, and Riverdog could have been known to more than one shapeshifter - and maybe someone's grandmother - like Liz's! [/b]

I am so in agreement with this. The thing that gets me, is it is obvious that the NY podsters protectors gave them so much more information about the past then Nasedo offered to our podsters. WHY?? That makes NO sense. So, you can deduce that either Nasedo was not a protector, or he didn't give them the information because maybe he felt they were safer without it. Either way, I am not satisfied with not knowing the explanation, dammit!!

quote:FMan608 - Welcome! I still think the "watcher" might be a shapeshifter - but it could be Serena or Tess (Met?)?? Time will tell if this loose end gets tied up.

I don't know...could it be Tess? Maybe? I had this really funny thought the first time I saw TEOTW, when FM mentioned Serena...I automatically assumed she was a human, who at some point in the future joined Max's army to fight the evil aliens from taking over earth. I don't know why...but I wouldn't be surprised if Serena turned out to be just a regular old human. It was weird the way FM phrased it, "She becomes a friend of yours". That led me to believe she was someone Liz met and befriended, and they actually figured out how to use the Granolith on earth, without the help of alien intervention... Color me crazy, that was just my first reaction.

quote:Met - I'd jump into the Ligth Cone discussion, but I'm so ignorant with respect to this! But someone mentioned Up being the future and down being the past - and that Max went up - but ended up in the past. Well - I guess the real question is "Is towards the center of Earth towards the past and towards space towards the future? Cuz up and down don't really mean anything since up to me is down to someone on the other side of the world. I hope I'm not babbling. I think it is likely that the large cone would be affected by the energy crystals used to activate it and the energy drawn up through the diamond at the bottom. I also think Liz's presence was essential to activation - but then I'm biased! I just love the entire discussion - but don't be offended by the lack of intellectual discussion - I think it has more to do with lack of total understanding - and not wanting to sound dumb! Of course, I never worry about that - I'm sure I sound dumb all the time - but it helps get the thought process going!

I am with you on the lack of total understanding of this scientific model. Remember guys...I'm a music major!! I never had to take any science classes in college. In any case, though, I think the whole idea is that space/time is relative ... based on Einsteins's special theory of relativity. [description taken from the Tao of Physics by Fritjof Capra] According to relativity theory, space is not three-dimensional and time is not a separate entity. Both are intimately connected and form a four-dimensional continuum, 'space-time'. In relativity theory, therefore, we can never talk about space without talking about time and vice versa. There is no universal flow of time in the Newtonian world view (mechanistic world view of classic physics) Different observers will order events differently in time if they move with different velocities relative to the observed events. In such a case, two events which are seen as occurring sumulatneously by one observer may occur in different temporal sequences for other observers. All measurements involving space and time thus lose their absolute signifigance. In other words, linear and sequential time does not really exist except in our perception of it.

So, my reasoning on the future being up and the past being down in relation to the Granolith... is that would all depend on where you're standing, you know?

There was further explanation about space and time as 'curving', but because of my ignorance, I will not even go there!!!

quote:StarBox - That is exactly what I thought when I reread that quote from RiverDog!!

Till Later!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
Sorry this is so long ...

Starbox regarding your response to my post above. I am total agreement - I even had a post earlier on in the thread where I mentioned Liz's response and the similarity to the Chakra theory. In any case, the quote from Riverdog is my favorite, I think. I think that quote has the basis to be the foundation of a lot of the sci-fi aspects of the show -- in and of itself!!

Anyhow, way before The Pilot I had a strong interest in the 'New Age' worldview, and had started getting interested in how modern science (physics, quantum mechanics) are finally coming around to prove [scientifically] what Eastern Mysticists said thousands of years ago. It's really fascinating stuff. I recommend Fritjof Chapras book to anyone who is interested in this subject matter. I see so much of this in Roswell -- or I should ammend that to read: I see so much potential in the sci-fi and mythology of Roswell to be related to this subject matter.

Anyhow, sorry once again for the extra long post. I take my job as an RBI very seriously, you see.

{~}:}

A very wise person once said to me, you could say that "time is nature's way of keeping everything from happening all at once."

Melodious[/B]

Great theories, Melodious!!! And thank you for the compliment. Just for the record, I 'came out' to this thread and admitted that I was being spoiled for the duration of the hiatus...but I am VERY careful not to bring any of the spoilers over here...Just for the record

I have every intention of returning to non-spoiled status once the episodes start again...or until I have all the spoilers until the season finale -- whichever comes first..

Smiles...
{~}:}

This is exactly what I thought. They both figured out how to work it and adjust it. If Serena were an alien, wouldn’t she know (assuming she is an alien other than our Pod Squad of course! ).

Ditto Meta, I'm also ridiculously spoiled but am VERY careful on what I say in here. I don't base my Liz Myth theories on the spoilers anyway. Basing LM theories on spoilers is kind of like depending on the Powerball as your retirement fund or something. It's just too risky (You certainly CAN'T take spoilers as the Godspoken truth... if I *see it* then I'll *believe it*... then comes the theorizing).

::running back to Mundo Fox to fan the Liz Myth flames over there::

Melodious

I have come out of lurkdom once again. Just to let you all know my theory concerning Isabelle/Vilondra/Tess mix up with Whitaker.

We have been firmly led to believe that CW made a mistake in kidnapping Tess. CW's story of Vilondra was vague and made us all wonder IF she really was mixed up! Then Nicholas seemed to confirm the screw up. And of course, Lonnie makes us believe that CW did guess wrong the first time. BUT, what if CW was RIGHT....Tess was who she wanted. And the others just took advantage of the mix up. I mean, maybe Kivar did have a "thing" for Vilondra, but she she wasn't the one who betrayed for "her great love", does this make sense?? I hope so.

There are so many loose ends that anything could happen! And probably will! Just like the dupes! I enjoyed the surprise, but am not sure I really care for them.

Well, I guess dinner is ready....so I had better go....hubby made dinner tonight, I am still "recovering" from surgery.... I wonder how long I can get away with this??

~Sheri

Zero- the editors article about roswell was at http://www.editorsnet.com/article/maniv/0,7220,26178,00.html
I hope the link works.
It has quick time clips of the scene when Mick. Isabel, and Max were going to kill brody. And you can se the nasty looking cow that looks inside out. (very nasty!!)

I read the interviews at crashdown, because im one of those people with snail speed connections. I thought some comments that tess made were confusing. Especially the one about how she can keep doing what shes doing without Nasedo. But I have no idea what she could have ment by this.

Also i remember a couple of threads back you guys were talking about how there are alot of diamonds and crosses. I noticed that one of the places Grant steals something from is called Las Cruzes which means The Crosses in spanish. I just thought you could add it to your list if no one noticed it.

Zero- the editors article about roswell was at http://www.editorsnet.com/article/maniv/0,7220,26178,00.html
I hope the link works.
It has quick time clips of the scene when Mick. Isabel, and Max were going to kill brody. And you can se the nasty looking cow that looks inside out. (very nasty!!)

I'm not sure, but I was watching this editors clip and I think the nasty looking inside out cow might actually be a hand, holding something. I think it might be Pierce's bloody hand from the white room, holding a gun... remember when Valenti shot him in the hand? I think that is what it is. I could very possibly be wrong. Anyhow, just thought I would add that.

Melodious ITA with you about the spoilers. It's fun to speculate on the spoiler boards but this is where you come for serious speculating and theorizing. Remember, we're the RBI's!!!! You can't base an investigation on possible future ocurrences. You can hypothesize about possible future outcomes, but you can't build a case on that, no siree...

SciFimom Hope you are feeling better soon. Milk the 'recovery' angle for as long as it works, that's what I say!!

Smiles...
{~}:}

quote:Originally posted by nermal:
And I wonder about the possibility that Max's vision of his wedding to Liz in VLV isn't the universe trying to reset itself to it's proper place.
Now, wouldn't that be nice. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

quote:Originally posted by huggybehr:
Rewatching these episodes I was really struck by just how creepy and suspicious both Tess and Ed Harding were. Recalling a JK interview in which he said the aliens 'gifts' reflect their personalities, perhaps Tess doing the full 360 is not so unlikely after all.
Thanks for bringing up that JK interview. After my Roswell marathon with my sister this past week, I was particularly interested in the impression I received for Tess after TLV where Max gets Liz out of the Harding residence. Tess and Ed are standing in the doorway and they look to one another after M/L leave. The look on their faces was particularly creepy. Like "Bru-ha-ha, now we have them in our clutches." Yikes!

Zara -

And a new collage to pay homage to one of our many theories on the Liz Myth thread. Is it how it was or is it how it will be?

The CHADs thread archive is here:
http://members.nbci.com/roswellchads/index.htm
Agent shapeshifter will get right on the task of linking to the CHADs archives to the Mythology and SciFi and Miscellaneous Archives at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology/index.html , but not as fast as Deputy Hansen . quote:Originally posted by Alexis:...Zero I am sure Harding was Nasedo because he knew about Riverdog and the healing stones. I think something may have happened where Nasedo snapped and then killed Atherton...[/B]I think Hardings memorable speech about 'killing every human who knows about the Cadmium X' would explain his motive for killing Atherton (a man who knew too much). Also, Hank was killed right after Michael demonstrated his powers.

About the cone time model, excuse my lack of focus here, but I do believe it's a model of relativity and time, not a physical cone. Reggie?

And about the scary thing that Max sees when he & Iz & Michael were about to kill Brody, you can see a screen cap (thanks to Reggie & Palomino) and discussion at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/stuff/TheSciFiOfDBp8.htm . Caution** not for the faint of heart !!

P.S.: Go to http://www.thewb.com/ and scroll down on the left to "Pulse" to vote for Roswell. BTW, I don't think anyone's voting for anything else.

While the fluids, etc. were certainly organic, it's possible that the pods themselves were made of a semi-organic compound, sort of like a plastic plantlife. If the Antarians were scientifically advanced enough to blend human & Antarian DNA, presumably they would be able to produce some kind of platicized organic compound that would be able to "grow" with the developing fetus, much like Silly Putty stretches when you pull on it The pod "walls" seem to be some kind of membranes--they even look like dried skin almost--so it's also possible that they were completely organic, but self-preserved once they had dried out, like beef jerky.

quote: AND - if the pod cave is supposed to be their alien "headquarters" (possibly why the pods dont break down or disintegrate) why didnt Nasedo/Tic-Tac/Mom leave the destiny book/orbs/cave map/healing stones in the pod cave???

Orbs--were in the ship when it crashed. In Liz's vision in SH, it looks like that one was buried by military people; they obviously kept the other one b/c Pierce had it (prob. different military people--factions within??). The Destiny book--personally I think it was specifically planted there by Tess and/or Nasedo not too long before she retrieved it to show Max. I still think it's false. Cave map/healing stones--????

Can't help with anything else you asked--I'm just as lost as you are

shapeshifter Re: our previous discussion of Tess' character. I've watched the last 5 eps of S1 about 6 times now, and I have to say that whatever liking I had originally for Tess is beginning to erode under the overwhelming nature of her suspiciousness. In TLV & 4Square she's downright frightening. Personally I believe that a lot of her character's changes this season are due to the lack of Nasedo/living with the Valentis, but that certainly doesn't explain everything. And I just have to say, coming at Destiny backwards, that as soon as she discovered Max was the King she started the whole "What do we do now Max?" litany--it was an annoying harbinger of her future dialogue

Evid I want to see Liz with the granolith too! Although I think I posted after WAF--when Max says to Liz in the ER that the closest he's going to get to traveling right now is the granolith chamber, that said to me that it was a place that he went to. I only ever say "the closest I'm going to get right now to X, is Y"--when Y is something that I actually do or a place that I actually go. I think they've just been doing it off-stage, so to speak (well, and not discussing it, etc.--but that's why I started writing my fanfic ). I have this feeling--not a spoiler, just a feeling--that the granolith is going to play a big part in the season finale. What, I don't know--it's hard to separate my fic ideas from the "reality" of the show

One other thing I noticed, and this isn't in your dates, Zero (BTW, thx for the luck): everything later says that the orbs were activated on May 14th. But in MTTM (might still be TLV, I always watch these together--it's like movie night ), when Liz looks up the constellation alignments for "today's date" at Max's request and produces the V formation, the date she enters into the computer is May 27th. Why the change? Was it just an oversight, or was it deliberately changed so that the 5/14 numbers were used?
~Tas

Can you tell I just gone done watching Joey on Friends.

Meta: I just love it when a fellow RBI comes up with a theory after posting one of my own. I agree with you, I'm liking it.

MissLParker: I had made a comment about Liz's thoughts on the Dupes before. I think Liz was telling us that she does not think of Ava as a Dupe, maybe because she isn't and Tess is, I think Tess fits right in with Lonnie and Rath. Ava was very likeable from the get go. Your right about the improve, but if anyone knows Liz it's Shiri.

Zero: This type of stuff has already drove me nuts. I'm still trying to hitch my way back to Saneville, it's just that everytime I'm just about there, I watch a new episode of Roswell.

Alexis: Thanks for your reply on the Cherishing thread. I think we had discussed my post when MITC aired. But I don't think anyone posted the metaphor with the pics. I just did that for the Dreamers to left their spirits.

I'm going to watch 285 South tonight, I just can't bring my self to rewatch season two. Any other RBI agree?

Evid

Well I also have had some questions regarding things that have never been answered on Roswell.

First the Momogram said that she wants the pod squad to go back so she can hold them in her arms again (or something like that)
I assumed this meant that she was still alive. But if they (pod squad) were taken over and killed by Kalvar (is that his name) than why didn’t they kill the mom too. Especially if she is taking part in the rebellion against him. If he really wanted to insure his place at the throne of Antar than wouldn’t he have killed all of the royal family?

Second in Leaving Normal Max says that he was able to save Liz because something was happening to her that wasn’t supposed to, that is was before her time. And he seemed very certain that Liz wasn’t supposed to die that day at the crashdown. How could Max know this? I know there have been theories here about Max knowing Liz from another life, maybe that’s how he know Liz wasn’t supposed to die that day. But then how could he have been so certain that it was before her time?

And third what ever happened to Grandma Claudia’s book, and why don’t they look through it. I also miss Liz’s journal entries, I thought it was great insight as to how she was feeling during the episode. I had no idea how Liz was feeling until I watched the interview, she is really going through alot right now.

BTW- Zero I cant wait to hear the answers to the questions you sent to the set designers.
You guys have completely changed the way I watch Roswell, but its hard to look for clues when you don’t have any of the episodes on tape.

WR- I cant wait to read the rest of you fanfic.

And thanks for keeping this thread spoiler free. I am unspoiled, so I have no idea why everyone is so depressed by the spoilers. Although hearing that everyone is depressed by the spoilers makes me think terrible thoughts, and then I am tempted to wonder into the spoiler boards. But I will not read the spoilers, it is better to be surprised (yeah just keep telling yourself that).

anyway bye for now.

Honestly, I don't know enough about it to comment. However, even if it's not a physical cone per se, I thought it might be relevant. It's probably not, but it's been fun speculating about it. Somewhat educational as well, and hey, I'm all for learning.

quote:And about the scary thing that Max sees when he & Iz & Michael were about to kill Brody, you can see a screen cap (thanks to Reggie & Palomino) and discussion at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/stuff/TheSciFiOfDBp8.htm . [b]Caution** not for the faint of heart !![/b]

Thank you for the link.

[edited by me because when I went back and looked at the picture again, I realized I don't know what the heck it could be. Previous speculation erased, eliminated, and gone from this post!!]

Tas : "like beef jerky"? . They looked like embryos kind of and last I checks my bio placentas aren't reusable either

redhawk : ohhh i can finally see your wonderful wonderful artwork again!!! you're soooo amazing! i'm always in awe of your work

quote:Originally posted by Zero:

But someone mentioned Up being the future and down being the past - and that Max went up - but ended up in the past.

Think of it like a sandclock. If you turned it- which way is up and which way is down? There has to be a direction in which the sand is going but i just depeds on which way you turn it. there really is no up or down its relative to which side you see as up at that moment.

[quote:] Cuz up and down don't really mean anything since up to me is down to someone on the other side of the world. [/quote]

exactly . you totally understood it ...and btw i think its impossible for you to ever sound not smart. i think some of us are the ones who are at the stuff you come up with and decipher

quote:
So...do you agree with my earlier theory that the Granolith looking like Einstein's Light Cone is no coincidence?

Nope no coincidence at all . i think you're dead -on right about everything--but thats just me. Its is pretty interesting stuff (I just pretty much summed up what I read--I didn't make this up gobel did ) but I have never taken astro physics or any hare cord physics stuff so I don't feel comfortable going much into it either .

Since you have been discussing Tess, and being wary of trusting her, I thought I'd add my two cents. This is mainly because I just finished rewatching Harvest. I watched Tess closely in this episode, and I must say, she really creeped me out. She had very strange expressions on her face, particularly when Nicholas was involved.

I noticed this when Nicholas first arrived on the scened, and Tess seemed like she was keeping a careful eye on what was going on between Isabel and Nicholas. Later, when she interrupted their conversation, she had a very strange look on her face when she was talking to Isabel about it.

I also got a very creepy feeling when Tess was holding CW's picture. I thought that the flashes she had were strange, but I can't seem to put my finger on what disturbed me about them. The expression on her face when she was talking to CW's mom also creeped me out. Tess wasn't looking at CW's mom, nor was she looking at the picture. I thought it was very strange.

Also, I got a weird feeling about Nicholas when Tess interrupted his conversation with Isabel. Something is going on between Nicholas and Tess. Whether they are enemies or allies is anyone's guess, I suppose.

One last thing: Isabel's expressions when talking to Nicholas bothered me also. It almost reminded me of the way Tess looked when Max found her at the end of MITC.

I'm not sure if any of this means anything, or if I just got too excited over an actor's facial tic. Since I rarely catch anything, I thought I'd share this. It also reaffirms my distrust of Tess. She's definitely got something up her sleeve. I'm convinced of it.

Tasyfa - The dates are screwed up. It was the 27th in Season 1, but when we came back - the Season 2 episodes said that the communicators went off on the 14th??? Who knows why the change, unless it was just sloppy writing! So, you have caught another CHAD!

Sirena - Stay unspoiled! The spoilers are often confusing and contradictory, and more often than not depressing to the Dreamer crowd - though looked at through our eyes (with a slant to Mythology) they are interesting and full of potential! I'm what they call there a Pollyanna - always looking at the glass as half full! Plus, I think there is lots of false info out there deliberately. Until it is aired - you never know what we will get! That is why we stick to what is actually aired or stuff on the silverhandprint site! We also want to encourage everyone to visit this site - and staying Spoiler free encourages just that!

I finally watched all the interviews, and I have a few observations. Liz seemed emotionally "spent"! It is like I feel and sound when I feel like I've been put through the emotional ringer! And considering what she has gone through - I would say that exhaustion is well deserved! It has been an emotional rollercoaster for her! I found her answers very interesting - especially the last one about Max. I think it just confirms our belief about there being more to the connection than just an adolesent crush! Interesting that she uses the word "energy," too!

Tess - well I'm biased since I have never trusted her though I do like the 'new' Tess with Kyle. I just got cringing feelings listening to her answers! And since when has Max shown any (non-mind-warped) attraction to Tess? Did I miss something??

Kyle - First I must say he is adorable this season! He is the only shining light in this whole season right now - but I was sad about his growing connection with Tess - because if we are right - that Tess is going to turn out evil or a pawn in someone's evil scheme - he is going to be sooooo hurt! But I loved what he said about Liz - growning closer to her. That was heartwarming!

I know there were some other questions that I wanted to answer, but I'm braindead right now.

I'm hoping to get to work on the Intro tomorrow - before the next thread - but the up-date may not be completed by then. But keep the great thoughts coming! I love it! It is keeping me sane during the hiatus!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Tess - well I'm biased since I have never trusted her though I do like the 'new' Tess with Kyle. I just got cringing feelings listening to her answers! And since when has Max shown any (non-mind-warped) attraction to Tess? Did I miss something??

Zero: I was thinking the samething about Tess's answer, this is what she said.

Tess: What our home planet, I mean I remember some things about our home planet, but I just... I wanna know, I wanna know what's going on back there, I wanna know whether we should go back there, or whether we should stay here, or... whether me and Max...are meant to be together, which we both feel we are, but then we both feel we're not meant to be, so it's kind of a "we don't know".

First of all she said that she remembers somethings about her planet. So why hasn't she shared this with the rest of the pod squad?

She said "which we both feel we are," now I'm with you Zero, did I miss something? When has Max ever made her think that he felt that they were meant to be together? Another thing is she keeps saying WE like she has the right to speak for Max, a little possesive are we. The whole interview just rubbed me the wrong way. Something just doesn't smell right.

Evid

Evid, I have only seen episodes up to 'Disturbing Behaviour' although season 2 is now showing in the UK and TEOTW is up next, but I just can't rewatch most of it, I'm still taping it though, in the hope that the passage of time will make it possible for me to actually rewatch for clues.

Tasyfa, I don't think it was the military burying the orb, why would they? I'm sure it was an alien running from the military. Perhaps a scientist from the ship (the true love of king Zan) who was the original possessor of the soul which has now been reincarnated into Liz (I know, I've been reading too much fanfic!)

Metaphysicalgrl, Starbox and Zero, we are totally on the same page with regard to Riverdog's speech in 'The Balance'. I have always thought that was the key to the change in Liz and why Max is such a mess in season 2. That is one loose end that I really hope they revisit.

Watching eps such as 4-square, Tess, Lies, and Videotape, Harvest, and the Dupes have now taken precedence over studying for finals I've now got the Tess-radar up, searching for anything else that seems odd and could provide a clue..
I remember in Destiny, I always hated that line that Tess said to Liz when they were waiting in the Jeep, "Sometimes it's easier to do that then to make a person see what's right in front of her eyes."
This may not be a big thing, but was that some type of clue about Tess using her powers in the future to get people to see things her way? How lovely.
Sorry, this has probably already been picked over a million times, but I thought I'd just ponder over it on here...

I just got an email this A.M. regarding this very theme. Some people that have been selling scripts on Ebay have gotten emails from the Roswell Production Office. (2nd hand info)

I really, really wish I could tell you more about this, how I know, and what I discussed, but I cannot. You will have to wait for the season to end.

One other thing I noticed, and this isn't in your dates, Zero (BTW, thx for the luck): everything later says that the orbs were activated on May 14th. But in MTTM (might still be TLV, I always watch these together--it's like movie night ), when Liz looks up the constellation alignments for "today's date" at Max's request and produces the V formation, the date she enters into the computer is May 27th. Why the change? Was it just an oversight, or was it deliberately changed so that the 5/14 numbers were used?
~Tas

Oh how this inconsistency bothers me too! I watched Foursquare to Destiny last week and I cringe at that scene with the dates! Why couldn’t they have said June 14th?

Quote by Zero:
Kyle - First I must say he is adorable this season! He is the only shining light in this whole season right now - but I was sad about his growing connection with Tess - because if we are right - that Tess is going to turn out evil or a pawn in someone's evil scheme - he is going to be sooooo hurt! But I loved what he said about Liz - growing closer to her. That was heartwarming!

ITA with you, Zero about this and the staying away from spoilers!

And I agree with whoever said POOR KYLE.

Anyone else make the connection that CHANGED Tess came back from NYC at the same time ALEX mysteriously left for Sweden?

Someone mentioned Tess's quote in Destiny - there is a cut line in that scene where Tess says that she could "trick Max into loving her - but it wouldnt last and therefore Liz had to give him up". www.roswellscripts.com Now if that isnt creepy - what is???

So many questions....so little answers!!!!

About the improved interviews - with imporv an actor doesnt get "free reign" - they just dont have a script per say. They are told WHAT to say - just not HOW to say it. (if that makes any sense) - so I do think we can accept their answers as reflecting the intent of the production staff.

And ditto about the spoilers - they are evil stuff - especially this time of year.
LAST SEASON - at this time - the spoilers said that Isabel and Michael would have sex and she was going to be pregnant with his baby and that Tess and Max were going to make out in the chemistry lab and Liz was going to see them. BOTH of those things ended up being mind warps - but you can imagine how upset and depressed they made the spoiled!!
So - if you hear people are depressed - dont put much stock in it & have faith in Liz Mythology!

Redhawk - as usual I your animation!!!
Just beautiful!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
Woooo-Hoooo!!! I made it to 500 posts!!!!!

Starbox your mention of Alex and Sweden-I kept thinking that reference to Alex in Surprise NYPD BLUE---that we were going to see Alex in NY--we did keep seeing that police car around LOL-so who knows.

I just listened to Tess's comments at silverhandprint and I found it very interesting that even though she told Max that she didn't trust the dupes, in so many words, in her interview, she thought that being around them changed her life for the better: she even went so far as to say she was glad that they met their dupes, and that she learned a lot about home and was taught a lot of things from them.

My questions, what exactly did the dupes teach them? Nothing that I can remember, yes they learned a little about thier home planet and the royal seal being stenciled on Max's brain, but that's about it. They didn't even learn the name of their home planet.

Why did she feel that the experience she and Max had, meeting up with a fierce enemy, again, being deceived by the dupes, Max being almost killed by Lonnie, and she being mindraped as an experience that impacted her life for the better. Hmmm. You'd think she'd think this experience was downright scary since she and Max both almost ended up dead.

And then her comments about Nicholas being "an old man" was she referring to him as being old in earth years since he's been here since 1950 or was she referring to the Nicholas she knew back on Antar? I've never got the impression that Tess really feared Nicholas or that he was even after her. In fact, from the comments he's made to her, about "have you killed anyone today" it almost seemed sarcastic in an evil but friendly sort of way. Then she goes on to say in his "real demeanor" she doesn't like him. What does this mean? Whitaker said in her journal that Nicholas was a lot more ruthless, heartless, and cold back on Antar. Maybe Tess was referring to what he was like back then, and the fact that she likes him better in the childlike disguise, though he's strong, and still "ruins" her plans, he's easier to deal with this way. I'm really beginning to think theres' some kind of connection between Tess - Nicholas & Skins, especially when I think back to how she looked at Whitaker's picture in Harvest. It seemed as if she was trying to remember Whitaker, like she was sensing something familiar about her and was trying to remember what it was, very strange scene.

And last but not least, her comments on Nasedo. How she realized she could do what she was doing before, without him, and exactly what is that?? What was she doing before while Nasedo was alive?? Throwing out mindwarps, materilizing destiny books, pushing Max to follow his destiny, ignore the humans, give in to the alien side. Hmmmm. So many questions, very few answers.

Evid & Others - I agree, something does smell really bad, regarding Tess's interview!!

Actually, you reminded me of something that I'd been meaning to bring up Does anyone else think that Lonnie has a lot more going on in the brains department that Isabel? I mean, Isabel's no idiot, and her fashion diva persona is partly a cover, but still...Lonnie was really sharp, and she didn't hesitate to use her perceptions immediately to manipulate people. I don't know if that's b/c her skills were honed by the street life, or if there's another explanation, but it was a difference between them that bothered me.
~Tas

Liz seemed so sure that the dupes didn't effect her life she said "Did they effect my life, No I don't think they did, I'm fine. I found it interesting that Liz mentioned the kiss from Rath, but didn't mention Ava's announcement that she had been changed when Max healed her. Do any of you have any thoughts on that? Could Liz be in semi-denial of her changed status, telling herself that it was Isabel's power, and that she just helped??? But Liz had to have felt that power awakened when Izzy touched her hands and helped her channel it. Gosh I hope TPTB revisits her changed status, definitely don't want that mystery left up in the air.

StarBox Wow, that's interesting about what the spoilers were this time last season (since I didn't watch Roswell last year, let alone spoil for it!). And Qfanny thx for the heads up--you're very good at walking that line between giving us enough info so that we understand what you're saying without actually saying anything
~Tas

Kyle brought his dad--a chicken sandwich with EXTRA MAYO

Rath went on about what kind of idiot puts MAYO on PASTROMI--so HOLD THE MAYO

Does this mean LAREK is not the GOOD GUY he pretends to be--assuming that Jim Valenti is?

NEMO---for you I ask---what did you think of Valenti's reference to getting a call from the VICE principal that Kyle did not show up for detention?---There is that word VICE?
Valenti also mentioned a MASS KIDNAPPING? hmmmm??? Makes me wonder, would like your thoughts if you are out there.

HOW am I going to survive this long!?

Thanks roswelldiva & StarBox!

Thought you might enjoy this even if it is OT.
TSAP Dream Kiss animation

RedHawk---nice to see you back here again missed you and all your beautiful fanart.

redhawk the animation
~Tas

Just checking in! Redhawk - I can't seem to get you most recent picture?? I would love to see it!

What bugs me about Larek is what bugs me about a number of the characters introduced this year (and Harding and Tess from last year) - Why don't the Podsters ask them MORE QUESTIONS?? Larek is a perfect example! Here is a guy who claims to have been Zan's friend and obviously knows about what happened, but noone asks him about it. Max and Tess had a perfect opportunity to do that at the summit?? And Tess' comments about learning stuff from the Dupes - what stuff?? They didn't even find out about their protector and his/her fate?? Okay - I won't rant - but the lack of "fact finding" does drive me nuts!

Is Larek good or bad? I agree that we don't know, and it is suspecious that his is the only planet not apparently involved in the conflict. As the old saying goes - All is fair in love and war!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

BTW - anyone else when they saw the new Herbal Essences commercial?? I have always - from day one - hated those ads - they are just the ultimate in cheesiness. I could not believe that TESS is on one! Yikes!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Okay here is another thing I noticed and have been thinking about from VLV--the beginning reminded me of the MITC beginning with the camera honing in on the tall steeple type object---were they trying to indicate some DUPE INFLUENCE HERE???? I thought Michael who always is a bit of a chucklehead was way over the top this episode very LOUD and BOISTEROUS--RATH like????? I am not saying he is Rath(although who knows) but are they in danger of becoming very much like those dupes with the wrong influences????? Even Isabel going with the guy--shades of Lonnie peaking through here---and the fact that they went to SIN CITY hmmmm?
Okay something else I noticed that has been bothering me---Alex in early episodes always wore this CHAIN dangling out of his pants---but now I noticed since WE ARE FAMILY when Michael brought Valenti out to find that blue chip(which by the way Valenti said THIS WASN'T HERE LAST NIGHT) Michael NOW has this chain dangling from everything he wears---never use to---WHY? Even in VLV dressed in a suit he is wearing this----I know some will say latest fashion but....I just think it is new therefore something to ponder????

"Sometimes it's easier to do that then to make a person see what's right in front of her eyes."

This may not be a big thing, but was that some type of clue about Tess using her powers in the future to get people to see things her way? ...Specifically, I will always interpret it to mean that Max did not kiss Tess--that she did a double mind warp on Max & Liz. I know I'm alone in this, but I shall believe!!! quote:Originally posted by GraceKel:
...Tess was acting very suspisciou up until MITC and then came home nice Tess so it makes me wonder exactly who came home-an educated Tess or someone pretending to be Tess?...I hope the writers are reading all this and will either:
a) have a few Tess lines in which she confesses her sins against her allies and the moment of epiphany (in NY) and declares her change of heart
or:
b) she turns out to be totally evil and gets killed and they bring back Ava to replace her

We know now for a fact that Tess can create a GROUP MINDWARP--she has shown us many times now----so that means even MOMMYVISION is STILL up for grabs really--I am not saying it was a warp I am just saying the possibility is STILL open.

Now, regarind the pods (I know starbox hates them), if they are organic, then why do the membranes still exist?? Shouldn't they have decomposed by now? The fluids that supported their pod time are gone. Are the pods really, really, organic, partially organic, or manufactored??

Seems to me that Twilo could figure out how to create something like that... The grandarium was it's own designed lifeform... (Yikes! I realize I am trying to build a theory for walking pods, not pod people.)

I wonder what would happen if Liz took a closer look at those membranes.

Someone asked a while back about the mom-o-gram and why mom would say she would "once again hold them in her arms" - my assumption has been that the kids were sent back in time.

GraceKel - cool catch on the TicTacs
Doesnt it look like it says TAC right next to Tess?

BTW - clarification about the Herbal Essence commericial - EdR is NOT the actress in the spots- it is just someone who really looks like season one Tess - and wouldnt an Herbal Essence ad be just the type of thing little mindwarping sex fantasy season one Tess would do. LOL! (apologies to anyone out there who just those commercials

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

quote:NEMO...what did you think of Valenti's reference to getting a call from the VICE principal....The reason this wasn't as striking to me as last time was that Valenti spoke the words ("vice-principal McClure") with a natural accent on the person's name; unlike last time, when the bureaucratic-sounding office person put the accent on the word VICE.

The Silverhandprint site has been updated again with an article about Alex's trip to Sweden in the HS newspaper. Interest! Curious about all your takes on it. I found some of the comments telling - but ...

Off to sleep ! But looks like I have a few new dates to add to the dateline. I won't have the Intro up-dated by the time we get to the next thread, but I'm working on it!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

But I was just watching Monsters for the first time since last year, and noticed they kept showing the "Future Week" sign, and wow were there a lot of allusions to future developments, most notably the Sheriff saying he was there to protect them and Liz talking about the Sulfur of the Chemistry Lab smelled like home--thinking of a future flash back to a day when she will visit Max's planet on a honeymoon (or is that honeymoons for Antar?)

Gnite all

I don't see a way to deduce future story possibilities from the cones. (Maybe that's because, as my wife would say, my brain is so often ELSEWHERE.) I just think the shape resemblance (with the granolith) is pleasing. Also the light cone invokes a fourth dimension, which is a story parallel of sorts. But the story departs from the usual physics of the light cone, in using more-or-less instantaneous communication from astronomical distances (as for the alien summit), contrary to the lightspeed limit. (I am not faulting the story for this, just pointing out that this story makes some of its own rules, which may surprise us at any time.)

Nemo - So47 is the one episode I am missing - I started taping S2 at EOTW and then caught up when they did reruns but they pulled a fast one and played Gilmore Girls and messed up my taping schedule! I'll have to get it when summer reruns come.

re: the www.silverhandprint.com article about Alex - I find the intentional misspelling of "hostel" to HOSTILE was a little creepy....

BUT - in terms of Liz Mythology - the most telling thing was the inclusion of the play My Fair Lady on May 3-5. There are the big LIZ numbers again - 3 and 5 and the story of My Fair Lady could be a parallel:
A aristocratic man changes a common girl into
a "princess" of sorts (the queen mistakes her for a princess)
She falls in love with him but he can not admit he loves her back (because of their class diference)
So - she leaves - he realises he DOES love her - she comes back
It is based on the myth of Pygmalion

From the Encyclopedia Brittanica:

"in Greek mythology, a king of Cyprus who fell in love with a statue of the goddess Aphrodite (Venus). The Roman poet Ovid, in his Metamorphoses, invented a more sophisticated version: Pygmalion, a sculptor, made an ivory statue representing his ideal of womanhood and then fell in love with his own creation; the goddess Venus brought the statue to life in answer to his prayer."

Hmmmmm - so a KING falls in love with Venus....

Painting of Pygmalion and Galetea:

Interesting OT footnote - Pygmalion was Dido's brother

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

When I orginally saw Grant doing this nasty things my first instinct was that Grant was possesed by Khivar! I'm actually not even sure I'm convinced that didn't happen (at times). It just seemed like the logical conclusion - he liked Izabelle, he wanted to sabbotage the Pod Squad, he didn't like Sherrif Valenti. Maybe I'm nuts though!

Monsters is one of two episodes I don't have on tape! If only they would rerun Season One I could complete my set!

Maybe I am reading to much in to Alex's comments here, but as far as the changes in life - we know Liz is changed is Alex telling her to embrace the change? She does seem to be in denial right now which could be what he means by cowering under the covers. As far as travelling to another continent -how about travelling to another planet without hesitation.

I also still believe that Tess is not Tess. After she was mindwarped by the dupes she became all warm and fuzzy and definatley more like Ava. Could Tess somehow be Ava?

I hope I am making some sense, you guys are so smart I would hate to sound like an idiot.

Haven't been here in a while because of the move. We are now settled in our new home, and I have lots of Liz Mything to catch up on.

First off, what do you all think of Alex standing next to a windmill in the silverhandprint article's picture? Made me think of Don Quixote. He also mentioned meeting someone who backpacked through Spain--Don Quixote was Spanish. Don Quixote lost touch with reality and left his home in search of adventure. He sought to fight evil and "protect damsels". What could this mean in relation to Alex?

ITA with everyone who doesn't trust Tess. I never have, never will, no matter how cute she is with Kyle or how much she wears her hair like Farah Fawcett!! I am still wondering where she went in VLV and what she was up to. I really wouldn't be surprised if she was in league with Nicholas and Lonnie.

Meta--Absolutely fascinating research!!! That chakra info and the pictures are just amazing!!

Starbox--Very interesting about "My Fair Lady". A King falls in love with Venus? Very interesting indeed!!!

So, what, if anything, does anyone think about Alex?

The Gazette: What's next for you?

Alex: Graduation, obviously. It's the next big step. After that, the possibilities are endless. The things most important to me are here, my friends and my family. At the same time that's what makes me feel okay about traveling more, I've got this home I know I can always come back to.

Ok, maybe it's just me. I just thought it sounded like what the "conclusion" would be for the conversation Max and Liz had in the eraser room - you can leave Roswell and discover the world without fearing the loss of what you have at home - friends and family.

I saw a translation of the "Gripa det dagen" phrase in Alex's article on another thread whose name *ahem* will go unmentioned. It means seize the day.

NEMO--It does look like a Crashdown waitress is standing in that photo. What a great catch!! Going along with the Don Quixote theme and protecting damsels, maybe Alex is supposed to protect Liz or Maria from something. Or maybe Liz or Maria will be involved with Alex in fighting evil. Either way, it can be seen as foreshadowing, but foreshadowing what???

Re: Alex foreshadowing I confess I've visited the spoiler board (I've learned my lesson now and gone cold turkey), so the less said the better!

Actually, Michael is wearing the chain on his pants in EOTW--if you listen, you can hear it clink against the floor when Alex knocks him down I think he's wearing it in Ask Not, too. And in VLV, I think he's only wearing it at the end, when they've both ditched the ties and untucked & unbuttoned the shirts:drrol:
~Tas

The Gazette: What's next for you?

Alex: Graduation, obviously. It's the next big step. After that, the possibilities are endless. [b]The things most important to me are here, my friends and my family. At the same time that's what makes me feel okay about traveling more, I've got this home I know I can always come back to.

Ok, maybe it's just me. I just thought it sounded like what the "conclusion" would be for the conversation Max and Liz had in the eraser room - you can leave Roswell and discover the world without fearing the loss of what you have at home - friends and family.

[/B]

I felt this same way! you know I can’t quote, but you know when they say “If you love someone you must let them go. If they never comes back they were never yours. If they come back they will be yours forever.”

I don't think she really considers Ava a "dupe". I think she sees Ava as a person in her own right, not as an evil manifestation of a "real" person. (I still think proto-Ava was the smallest of small-town B.E.M.s when King Max met & married her. I believe that Ava and Liz have a lot in common.)

Anyway, Tess does have a double personallity; or at least she should. One the one hand, there's Harding's Daughter, a guided missle aimed straight for Max's side. She'll do what she has to, including using her feminine wiles, to get to Max and "resume" her position as his Bride.

On the other hand, there's this kid who's grown up with a dominating "father", who has probably never had a real childhood. No playing in the mud, no romping with other kids; always on the outside looking in. Remember Isabel's "Christmas Nazi" persona? Well, part of Tess wants a real life, in just that kind of way. We see this in the first bedroom scene with Kyle (AN? "Yeah, what would she know about disruptions?"), in the whole Christmas dinner thing, etc. In MitC, Tess saw just how bad the Bride role would be. That's when she realized that going "Home" to Roswell was what she wanted. She could continue to be herself there, not Harding's (Destiny's) puppet. As for being childlike, well, she's entitled. She didn't get to, before.

Re the light cone topic: the "light cone" is just a clever way of graphicly showing the limitations caused by the speed of light. It's a graph, not a "real" thing. Disregard it.

One other thing - and very important:

This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?

Please take all futher discussions to the new Thread! Thanks!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!