The Hybrid Chronicles are over, and were interesting. While they really did not added a lot to the Liz Mythology connection, they still included clues that seemed to underline Liz’s importance to the Pod Squad, especially Max , and ultimately, the alien mythology! Also, “Viva Las Vegas” was heartwarming in many ways to all the Dreamers out there, and had that great Wedding Scene that is full of speculation re: How it occurred! We have been busy watching old episodes and speculating on new “finds” and observations! There is never a dull moment on this thread, though we would love some new episodes to digest!

Background

We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, season after season (a little optimism there about a Season 3! ), finding “clues” to Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology and other relevant topics – and there are a lot of them (WAY MORE than I can ever summarize here)! – and then developing theories and potential storylines based on these (often well hidden) clues! Shapeshifter and Qfanny have graciously agreed to set up a single link to the former threads that are available to read (if you have a week or two or three or four). You can find it at the following link http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology (but be patient, they will have thread #33 up in good time ) . Starbox does a wonderful job of posting pictures relevant to our discussions up front for reference! Thanks! Metaphysicalgirl has gathered questions to put to a Set Decorator/Designer/Prop Person from Roswell, since the set decoration, etc. seems so important to our analysis. Qfanny and another connection to the set are going to try and get us some answers! We hope they know of our appreciation! Metaphysicalgirl will continue to gather questions for future attempts, and as soon as we get some responses, we will post them!

Up-Date on our Questions: The list of questions was given to the on-site set director for the episode being filmed during the week of 2/19/2001. He was tickled that we were asking questions, and said that he has visited our thread and is very interested by some of our findings. (They are lurking out there!! ) He also wanted us to know that they usually don't have a lot of time to really plan the set for a TV show. They generally, only have a few weeks of prep-time. Once chosen, they have to use those designs pretty much throughout the duration of the show. Also a lot of the posters and stuff they use are donations they get from companies. They will use the posters that they think are cool and kind of work with the character. However, Brenden specifically asked for Metallic since he's a really big fan of them. Finally, the on-site set director said that he would give the questions to the head set director and have her answer them as well. He said that she'd get a kick out of it. Of course, now we have to be PATIENT – remember Patience is a virtue!! (THANKS! to our contact who provided me this information!! They know who they are!! ) (Also – Due to the lock down on information on the set it may be a while before we get more responses to our questions! We don’t want anyone getting in trouble – so we may have to wait until the end of the season. Please be patient!)

The following is a LONG summary (oxymoron?) of some of the clues, thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I have been trying to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled; however, not all clues identified are listed or theories are covered in-depth (remember, I – Zero – am a mere human being with limited human brain capacity, so can only retain so many details).

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings – especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance! We are an up-beat and friendly – though seriously anal retentive – group! So – dive in, and join the fun!!

Liz is Important – The Liz/Max Connection

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions – or is it time zones? - recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz and felt a special connection to her. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all apparently due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that “connection” irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t totally let go of the connection. After events in NY, Max seems willing to give their Friendship another try, and in “A Roswell Christmas Carol,” his turning to Liz for help in his time of need, only confirms that even more. As Max says in the end – once Liz has helped him overcome his trial of conscience – he “believes in her!” In the Hybrid Chronicles it is obvious that Max still cares deeply for and worries about Liz, but is trying to respect her need to be kept out of “it.” But, once again – with the discovery of the Blue Goop – he has to turn to Liz for help. And as usual, Liz is the one to help move them to the solution to the problem. Though it was a team effort, they all looked to Liz for direction and guidance.

There is MORE to the Liz/Max connection than just a romantic relationship, as we have always assumed. She is his trusted advisory, his sound of reason, she is the yin to his yang (or is he the yin to her yang? ), and she helps him connect to his human side, finding that there is strength in his humanity! BUT - Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions regarding that connection have been answered this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Consequence of the Connection – the Change?

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz. We now know from the events in MITC that LIZ WAS CHANGED, and is developing powers, but how come?! How has that change come about? Whether the change in Liz was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Apparently Future Max knew Liz had the potential to “change” since he made the comment that she wasn’t letting it happen, but did he know the true potential of that change and what initiated it or prevented it from occurring? Is Liz’s “change” only a result of Max “bringing her back,” what Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply – or is there something more involved! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squad’s planet (Antar)? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? Could she be the “true bride” – only sent on a different ship to prevent easy discovery, with Tess serving as an unknowing dupe. But if so, and she is part alien, why did she disappear in Wipeout? She did cause the Skin’s shed skin to disintegrate, but that could have other reasons for occurring. Maybe she is purely human, but contains the “true bride’s” essence – but in a different configuration than the Hybrid pod squad?)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” and romanced a predecessor to Liz – but was called back to Antar, leaving his true love behind.
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. But, why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz? Could Tess/Ava be a ruse – as mentioned above - to protect the true queen, Liz, from being discovered before she has time to develop her powers that would protect her and her loved ones?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.) However, Liz is Max’s most trusted advisor, and the one most likely to keep him staying the course!
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies, such as the Key to operating the Granolith – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her? (If you watch “Buffy,” think of the storyline with Dawn as the Key be sought by Glory!)
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Antar? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Granolith and the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story? Ava had heard this story foretold during her previous life on Antar of a special human who would be brought back to life by their king, and would ultimately be the source of salvation for their world as well as her own?
· Could it just be Liz's extremely advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the MANY theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special all his human life – and he never connected with Ava the way one would have expected if she was his mate even though they had (we assume) spent their entire life on Earth – in the NYC sewers - together. I guess we will never know unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones (all 5 of them w/ Liz present) – anything is possible? We don’t know what happened to his body!) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her. (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?” [paraphrasing]) Liz looks directly at Max as he gets off the bus, with a sort of recognition. They obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were friends and lab partners more recently. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that we know are all human (according to Harding in WR). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking already – yet dormant – powers existing within her? Ava’s reaction to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle (Buddha Boy?), and all the kids in the hospital? There seems to be more to initiating the “change” than just the healing! Though Kyle may develop his own powers someday (though maybe changing TV channels is not one of them ), and so could the kids?

Origin of the Connection – Where is Liz from, really?

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins! A few of the common questions raised include:
· Are her parents her “true” birth parents or is Liz adopted like the Evans kids?
· Did Grandma Claudia have a relationship with an alien that passed something on to Liz?
· Does Liz have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race?
· Why does Liz look so much like Sheila Hubble?
· How does all this play into the connection with Max and Liz’s new found “abilities/powers”? (The first of her “powers” appearing to be astral projection.)
· Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur?

We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) There seems to be many clues that point to this possibility – but nothing definite. We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the Antar conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. These races could be of common decent, or there could be many variations. We know from White Room that the alien that was studied had a cerebral cortex similar to ours (humans), that did not have a bone structure like ours – thus, the shock that Max did. Could the similarities that the alien had be due to a common ancestor to humans – one that traveled to Earth many years ago either colonizing Earth or intermingling with the humans here. We don’t know for sure that the alien that was studied was a shapeshifter – we just assume it was, but it could have been another alien, different from the shapeshifters, that was on board the ship (or another ship that crashed.) We also know that the Skins (who are NOT Skins on Antar – only on Earth – so how did Nasedo know what they called themselves?) share powers common to the pod squad whose powers are all human. Why are these powers so similar if they don’t have a common ancestry? Does this mean that the beings that are Skins are from the same race of beings that the essences of the podsters are from? Will humans – like Liz – be able to eventually acquire some of these powers?

Rath sarcastically comments about how hard it is to travel through space to Earth – thus the need to possess humans long-distance – but the podsters obviously got here somehow (and fairly quickly if the comments concerning the warring for 50 years is correct - I will explain this if you don’t get what I mean – just ask) – so travel to and from Earth must be possible and not unreasonable from a time point of view. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ Antar predecessors from long ago? Could Liz and Max have a common ancestor – from long, long ago? (AND I’m not talking incest here – just a common ancestor like all humans do!)

Granolith – How does it fit in?

We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Whitaker and Courtney seemed to think it was a means to their salvation – but why? It is obviously of great importance! Could the Granolith be like a Holy Grail of the V constellation? The “Holy Grail” was meant to be found by a man with a pure heart who will use it to feed the hungry and heal the sick, and with it will bring peace and happiness to the land. So – whose heart is the purest in Roswell? Could it be Liz? The Granolith could be like Excalibur from the King Arthur tales, to be used as an instrument of the righteous, by a good man (or woman) for a good cause. So – who fits that description? Max? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? If it is only a transport system, I doubt they would have had such a concerned reaction – so there must be more to the Granolith than that. Some have speculated that it might be the energy source for a hidden ship – which it makes sense that a ship for return to Antar would be hidden “in plain sight” somewhere in the Roswell! But, I think it is more than a mere power source – though maybe a power source in the Grand sense of the term!

Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the prophesized protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Liz has yet to see the Granolith. Maybe it will react when she enters it. Maybe Liz holds something within her that is the key to the operation of the Granolith! Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time? Apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way before their discovery? So, many questions – still! … ! The speculation continues! Oh, AND Why hasn’t Max asked Liz point blank how she knew about the importance of the Granolith?! Umm…..

Destiny – Liz and Max!

Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess {I’m no longer going to use the snake sign for Tess since attending a Reptile seminar and learning Snakes are our friend! Anyone have a sign for a rat?}, many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his original “destiny” on Antar when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a “human” alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Many posters have wondered “Why?” send the Hybrid pod squad (in duplicate form) to Earth if there wasn’t some benefit to being Human and on Earth. Obviously, distance from their home planet was not one of the benefits. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction. Maybe she had “heard” the prophecy? (I am ignoring the cut scenes that Rooney posted that explained that the Dupe’s shapeshifter had warned that anyone they brought back would be changed, not necessarily for the better, because if it is not aired, it might not be the way the writers/producers have decided to take the show.) Zan’s “searching for someone” that Ava spoke briefly about, also seems to imply that he felt someone special was out there that he was meant to connect with – maybe Liz or Serena – I guess we will never know unless he is “brought back” somehow.

Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is a hot topic in the news right now with the publishing of the Genome Project! And is the pod squad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are (supposedly) “human” according to Harding. (I’m not going to get into it in this Intro – but the fact that the Skin’s powers are similar to the pod squads’ powers – which are advanced human powers – which are supposed to be similar to the powers they had on Antar seems to imply that humans must be capable of the these powers someday and have a common ancestor with the Skins and pod squaders in the distant past – Ummm …! )

Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters and her memory retrieval does not seem very complete! (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess :rat: , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time – though TPTB seem to be softening her character with the Kyle interaction!) Though the Dupes do seem to have memories of their past lives – at least Lonnie appears to - we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. Also, are the visions Max’s previous alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone (i.e., Tess, another shapeshifter) or somewhere (i.e., Granolith, Antar) else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! What else is stored deep within him, and can he get to the point he will be able to freely access and prevent having it MRd out of him? AND what is stored deep within Liz, waiting for the appropriate time to be released??

There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history “destined” to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the small amount of what we know of past podster actions. Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself in MITC - Zan was killed through treachery on Antar, then New Zan was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max (a Zan Hybrid) survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized, and Max has commented many times: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no?? Maybe they make their own destiny with a little help from their Human Friends!

Follow Your Heart

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons. Grandma Claudia told Liz to promise to always follow her heart wherever it leads her (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again (MITC and ARCC). He has even stated that he believes in Liz, and though this is meant more in a friendly way than a romantic way, it is a sign that Max is following his heart back to her! But Liz’s heart seems to be in a state of confusion with the introduction of Sean! But maybe, just maybe, her interactions with Sean will only convince her heart more than ever that Max is her true soulmate!

Symbolism – WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

The symbolism throughout the both seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! (WE love the Set Decorators! ) I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47, and prominently in the background at the Deluca Residence! Are Max and Liz the two diamonds hiding in plain sight? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often and everywhere (e.g., Valenti’s front door, Michael’s wallpaper).

We often look for “V”s, but as SweetJo noted - two “V”s make a diamond <>! Then Metaphyical took that another step – If you look at a diamond, which the Granolith definitely looks like, it is made up of many different V's. (See the picture of a diamond!) She then research octahedrons – which are 2 four-sided pyramides attached at the square bottom. If you connect 5 of these – you get the shape of the alien communicator! She then looked up Fluorite Octahedrons since they kept being mentioned, and it turned out they are used for Balancing!! Fluroite helps one to balance and stabilize the emotional, mental, and physical bodies. Isn’t it amazing what you learn here!!

Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! Liz could be the Trojan Horse in which something of great importance is hidden. There is a prominent picture of a Ship between Max and Maria when they are discussing his love for Liz. The old Scandinavian tale of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his score "The Flying Dutchman," symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love. In desperation the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful. Senta, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears that she will be faithful to the Dutchman unto death. However, in doing so, she betrays her fiancé Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she was trying to save. The Dutchman puts out to sea, but his vessel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned. HOWEVER - the pair are now seen RISING from the now-CALMED waters, TRANSFIGURED and REDEEMED by their SACRIFICE. Salvation is not a impossibly idealistic dream, but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality.

Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. Yvonne “White” was the nurse that disappears in Summer of ’47. And there is another White that shows up on the Silverhandprint site! Max lights a “white” pinecone in ARCC. The ancient Greeks and Assyrians viewed the pinecone as a symbol of masculinity because of its phallic shape, and it represented both fertility and immortality. As the emblem of Artemis, it represented feminine purity. It was also the emblem of the Roman goddess Venus. In Christianity, the pinecone forms the crown of the Tree of Life. Because of its swirling form, it is associated with dynamic generative and cosmic power. Here we see Venus is mentioned and also the Tree of Life (remember the women on the reservation told Liz that was what the symbol was on the necklace) also feminine purity seems to play an important role for Liz at this point. (Thanks Evid!) (And this is just the tip of the iceberg! We go on for pages about this stuff!)

Then there is the Dragon that has been prominent on Liz’s window this season – though it was present last season. We were in the "year of the dragon." Here are some Dragon “meanings”:
· In the Chinese Horoscope, the Dragon is in the FIFTH ranking order.
· The Dragon's corresponding western sign is ARIES.
· The Dragon’s ruling planet is VENUS.
Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her (unless dragons have been popping up on other characters’ windows?). But since it was the year she discovers that she had “powers,” it is reasonable to think of her as being “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon … as the Dragon. (Thank You Meloudious 1, Starbox and Bluecornmoon, Charmed Kitten for your thoughts on the Dragon!)
Then there is the Arthur C. Clarke book, “Childhood’s End” that is found in “Four Squares” (Thanks reguru!). Following is a summary written by a reader on Amazon – a coincidence? “It is ...in this book the "Overlords" are a mysterious, powerful, but ultimately tragic group of beings that have vastly potent minds, but that cannot undergo the spiritual metamorphosis that would take them into direct communion with the sort of Godhead that directs their (and human) destiny. I liked Clarke's ideas about utopia, which is more or less what the Earth becomes after a few generations under the guidance of the Overlords. He seems to have had a lot of fun playing with ideas about future art forms, for example, among other things. However, this utopian society is doomed, because of an unforeseen, quantum leap in evolution, that turns out to be an evolution of the communal spirit. Clarke has a lot to say here about what connects us to each other, as human beings. Are we all linked with some higher being at the level of spirit, in the manner that islands would be revealed to be all linked, if one were to somehow drain the world's oceans? Or is striving toward a planned, ordered, social utopia, with allowances made for developing all of every individual's gifts to the fullest possible degree, the best way to relate to each other?...” Interesting??
Stars show up often, both the five-pointed and the six-pointed star. It turns out that the six-pointed star, which is often linked to Judaism, has many other meanings. In the Middle Ages, for example, alchemists used it to symbolize the "quintessence," and "quintessence" is another word for "fifth element."
Alchemists also believed that the symbol of two overlapping lines with four arms of equal length had special meaning. We see many variation of this symbol in Roswell – one being the four pods connected in the center. Alchemists believed while each arm stood for an element (earth, water, fire, air), the point at which the lines of they intersected represented the fifth element. From their point of view, the fifth element was basically the intangible thing that makes up a human soul. Remember when Max tells Liz in Destiny: "Knowing you has made me human." In certain branches of science the diagonal cross symbolizes crossbreeding (hybridization) between two species or races. It is sometimes associated with Christ, and in ancient Chinese, it stood for the number 5. (Thanks Czech Please!)

There are lots of other symbols and clues to pick up on! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent and clever for that!

The “Bride” – will the real one please stand up!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? OR could it be referring to Liz who was also standing right there? AND Why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day, and never acknowledged Tess as Max’s mate!) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride with Max in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. What if Tess was sent to deceive the enemy, and the Real Bride was sent in a separate ship – and somehow the Real Bride’s essence ultimately ended up in Liz.

Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts were needed to defeat the enemy. Maybe Tess is a warrior, led to believe she was the bride, when she really wasn’t. (Bad Boy Harding!!) And why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? Since their shapeshifter seemed to teach them so much, wouldn’t they have known the importance of keeping the unit together? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection previously or at the same time? They never mention seeing a Mom’ogram.) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was the Mom’ogram pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is Antar still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?) housing the heads of the allied forces?

The Books – WHY Doesn’t anyone read these things?

Concerns similar to those raised about the Mom’ogram have been raised about the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? And why do the pictures look just like our grown Roswell podsters and not their punkish Dupes? Did the Dupes receive a similar book? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the pod squad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Why does Max have writing on his forehead, but no one else does?

Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there is any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!) SCOOBY GANG - READ THE BOOKS! READ THE FILES! ASK MORE QUESTIONS!

Now we have Grandpa Dupree’s files and notes to add to the reference material they should all be reading and learning from! WHY AREN’T THEY!!??!!

The Catalyst – Liz!

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are re-watched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, connecting with Max to save his life in NY, coming up with the idea that helps Max restore his balance in ARCC, figuring out the Blue Goop is a parasite and determining that Kyle had killed the blue crystals by suffocating them, etc.). Liz is a Leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan. (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max “fall out of love with her.”) The Pod Squad would be no where without Liz!

Vision Quest – How does Liz fit in?

Liz could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we now know is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment. (Who knows who and what to believe on this one??) Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” or complement Max, and bring him into “balance”? Max seems to believe that Liz is his voice of reason, and knows him better than anyone else – even Iz! (We learn this from the JK and JB commentary on ARCC.) Could Liz possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence (combined with her connection with Max) mean that she has the potential to obtain more of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS (astral projection, at least) – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing (probably!), and how the visions play into her powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “projected” visions from Tess to get Iz’s attention for help). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps! ) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions from Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just “now” being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifters, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? The vision seems similar to that Liz gets in SH when she “sees” the orb being buried. Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Could his blurred vision be the result of testing he was subjected to, and the tic tacs pills that he takes to maintain his “balance”?

Time Travel – “Run, Lola, Run”

Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has it come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run” – which was mentioned in Surprise as the story of Liz’s life? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully due to the premature cementing, and the third being the path we are on now!) Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos? OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has from FM concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY, and that warning prevented him from turning it over to the other aliens - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max in particular!) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug Max – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed! Does he really “know” as Kyle seems to think Max always does? Why isn’t he asking Liz about her the source of her knowledge??

Hero Journey – Liz’s Path

[The following is a summary of what BehrAll pulled together on another thread, and I’m applying it to LIZ! I thank all who may have contributed to this originally, and apologize for not mentioning your name. I believe the bulk of the following was quoted from NyLoN? And that Czech please also contributed to the post.] The Hero's Journey is perhaps the most famous method of storytelling ever. First used by Homer, it was given 'shape' by Joseph Campbell in the 20th century. It has been the basis for many of the most famous and popular works of fiction.

The Hero's Journey is a series of stages that a heroine must go through during her adventure. The stages are flexible in that they are not clearly defined, and Campbell admits that one need not follow all the stages for it to be a true journey. The Hero's Journey (HJ) does not apply to an entire plotline, but rather to a character or several characters and their evolution throughout a series. In our case, we believe that Liz is in the process of the HJ. Following are the HJ stages with references of how it applies to Liz (which I added):
1. Call to Adventure - The heroine must first be forcibly drawn into the adventure, this occurs from a normal occurrence and not something strange or supernatural. Liz’s healing after being shot would be such an event.
2. Threshold Guardian - The heroine must face a minor obstacle that blocks her way to the adventure. Okay – there are more obstacles that Liz has faced than I can mention here, but being a small-town girl who is human may be the initial minor obstacle.
3. Wise and Helpful Guide - The inexperienced heroine must find a guide who will aid her with advice and materials that will be instrumental in her journey. I’m not sure who this could be – Grandma Claudia seems the obvious choice, but River Dog could be on too. But this goes along with my belief that someone is watching over Liz.
4. Into the Labyrinth - The heroine must step out into the unknown and the “den of evil.” Getting involved with Max was stepping into the unknown. Working to defeat the enemy is stepping into the “den of evil.”
5. Heroic Deeds - The heroine must engage in mortal combat, often sacrificing something or someone for the further good to continue her quest. Liz has faced death – think escape from the FBI Special Unit – and sacrificed her own “happy” future with Max in TEOTW for the greater good.
6. Trials - The midway point of the hero's journey is marked by a series of trials, ordeals, tests and obstacles.
7. Into the Belly of the Beast - A popular occurrence is the literal swallowing of the heroine by some great beast. This often marks the entrance to a mythical world where a great transformation occurs. However, in most works the belly of the beast is a metaphor for a stronghold of the enemy. Okay – Liz had to confront the Skins before disappearing, and there are probably other examples out there.
8. Sacrifices - The opening of the mind and heart of the heroine requires her be prepared to (or in some cases does) sacrifice something of great import to her. Okay, think TEOTW – need I say more???
9. Atonement - The hero's journey sometimes includes a "father (or mother?) quest." After many trials and ordeals, the heroine finds her father and becomes "at one" with him. (Note, occasionally this step is eliminated to create 13 stages.) Since we don’t know the circumstances of Liz’s birth, we assume that her dad is her true dad, but ….
10. Return - The heroine then returns to her home with newfound powers, knowledge or ability to benefit her people. Liz does have newfound powers, but … Maybe this is for Season 3??
11. Return of Evil - The heroine is not the only one who is reborn, the forces of evil also reform and come anew. Okay – this could happen numerous times over the course of Roswell!
12. Enchanted Forest - The inhabitants of the enchanted forest are strange creatures who can be both helpful and dangerous. The heroine must know how to get them to aid her on her quest. (Note, this is the second most likely step to be removed to create 13 stages.) Liz has already “befriended” Ava – definitely a “strange creature, and Ava added Liz’s quest to save Max. I would see Liz as instrumental in working with other creatures to seek their assistance.
13. Heart of Darkness - The heroine must enter the center of power for evil in order to destroy it or its' leader. This definitely could happen in future episodes! I can see her ability to see the evil within (if that proves true) coming in useful there.
14. Final Victory and Journey's End - In the end the heroine triumphs over evil and brings forth something new, be it enlightenment, power, understanding or a whole new society. Is there any doubt!!!

Liz’s relationship with Max is key in her journey, but it isn't the only issue she's dealing with (or needs to deal with!). The Hero's Journey can be physical or emotional. An emotional journey, such as usually occurs in a romance, takes the protagonist from her normal state of affairs and challenges her ideas, beliefs and current existence. A proactive protagonist responds to such challenges, undergoing tests of her moral fiber and emotional strength. Frequently she will have to examine all that she has believed to be true before a major confrontation. It is here that she pulls victory from disaster. And it is here that she seeks to return to normalcy. Many writers believe this is the end of the journey. But it isn't.
TEOTW as probably Liz’s "major confrontation" since it was her actions here that pulled "victory from disaster." The future was changed and (we assume) the events FM warned her of do not come to pass. At this point, she knows all she has gone through with (and for) Max has changed her, but believes that part of her life is over now. Liz is hoping that things can be relatively normal again, and has been trying to resume the life she had before Max. But as we all see, she will, of course, be unsuccessful.

The issue at the heart of Liz's HJ, the thing that she must overcome, is the myth of her own insignificance. She believes firmly in her ability to control her own destiny, but often dismisses the notion that she is any more than an obstacle to Max's journey. She's wrong, of course! In TEOTW, we learn that it is their love that damns them and those they care about. This is huge! Liz's romance, her emotional connection, determines the fate of the world. And ultimately, she is the one with the power to save everyone. Unfortunately, she doesn't recognize this power, only the fact that she will be alone now. Her journey isn't over yet.

Liz and Max's respective HJ's have intersected many times already, and we believe that they will eventually merge together. This is why many of us don't worry too much about their couple status. Most of us believe there is much more to Liz than we have seen and that her destiny is more important than she could possibly imagine. We believe things she has accepted at face value her whole life will be turned upside down. Her ultimate sacrifice will be the belief that she is normal. Once she accepts that she is no longer "the smallest of small town girls," she will need to accept entirely new perspectives and responsibilities. At that point, the HJ that has we've seen unfold on Roswell so far will be over and another phase in her life will begin.

Grandma Claudia – the first connection?

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her new and married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Perhaps GC helped them when she was younger, and they entrusted valuable information with her just as with River Dog. Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Norma Bates & Tasyfa contributed these thoughts! Soulmates are usually described as people being very alike in feelings and motivation. They work very well together for common goals. They have a connection of purpose and a similarity in thinking. Their skills complement each others so that together they accomplish more and are stronger/better than if they worked individually toward the same goal. But soulmates aren’t necessarily a permanent connection and they could be with several people. However, Lifebonds take "soulmate" one step further. Lifebonds are usually found in telepathic sci-fi (Kathy Tyers' "Firebird" for example) and fantasy genres. Before they can be lifebonded, they must be soulmates first. They are linked together mentally, emotionally and constantly. Lifebonds in fiction are rare and not taken lightly. They are a permanent one on one connection…till death do they part. The creation of a lifebond is a matter of choice. It doesn’t just happen. Authors sometimes use the theory that if a pair decides to lifebond, they spend some time apart first (so don’t worry Dreamers! ;grin: ), to strengthen and stretch the bond (to change the bond) and to contemplate on their choice. Both must agree and be fully committed to each other. There is no divorce option except death. Once that is done, the 2 open their connections to each other, mind and soul, to the fullest extent and then “cement” their relationship, making the bond permanent.

The drawbacks to life bonding includes:
· If they are separated from each other, they feel incomplete, not whole.
· Long term separation can lead to mental instability or insanity because one balances the other’s strengths and weaknesses emotionally and physically.
· If one of a bonded pair dies, it can cause a deep depression to the point of suicide. The remaining survivor has trouble adapting and balancing themselves.

Some things that lifebonds aren’t:
· They are not mind reading skills. They send strong impressions or emotions. Right now, if Max and Liz were lifebonded, he would know she was lying but not why unless she told him.
· They are still separate people capable of misunderstandings.
· Lifebonds cause a lot of stress and misunderstanding because they are so close emotionally, they forget to communicate verbally.
· Having secrets between a lifebonded pair causes a lot of frustration and pain between them.

Could what FM is talking about in TEOTW be a hint that, not knowing what they were doing, Liz and Max became lifebonded too soon? Liz wasn’t going to change or be able to lifebond to Max without first making a decision that she wanted to go ahead with the relationship. From Destiny until TEOTW she kept herself apart and tried to withdraw, but after seeing Madame Vivian she changed her mind and decided to take a chance…to start changing. Perhaps FM found out that Liz would develop her own powers if they hadn't become lifebonded and solidified the links so early. FM coming back and keeping her separated allowed the connections to grow stronger. Liz needed time to stretch the links, to change both physically and mentally, and taking Isabel's hand in MITC was only the first step of finding out whom she really is and what she is capable of doing.

Sheila Hubble – Eerie resemblance to Liz! – What’s the connection?

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the pod squad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with while in Florida?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. So, there is a connection to Liz. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Do you think the writers will introduce a character from Florida named Chad? Ummmmm? And what happened to Hal?? Don’t you think he would want to stay connected to the podsters now that he knows they exist?

Venus – Liz’s connection to the stars!

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Some new findings connecting to Venus include - Liz considers the smell of sulfur as “being home.” Venus has sulfur as a predominant chemical in its atmosphere. “The first time I walked into a chemistry lab and smelled that smell – the sulfur – I felt like I was home.” (Monsters) Is this part of an alien essence or past? (Thanks StarBox!) Also, Venus is hot and dry. Its atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas. Its upper atmosphere contains sulphuric acid. Venus rotates very slowly (once every 243 earth days) in the direction opposite to most of the other planets and opposite to the motion of all of the planets around the sun. Its solar day is 116 days long. Venus goes around the sun once every 225 days. StarBox, Bluecornmoon and Zara conducted the following analysis - 225 (245?) days after Feb. 20 (SH) was October 25, the day of the Gomez' concert (TEOTW). The next "mating" cycle for Max and Liz will be June 23rd, 2001! As for Liz and Max's "need" for each other - It's not time yet!

Numbers – It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! TEOTW occurs in 2014! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates? Next time you watch ARCC, notice the house addresses for Brody and the Ghost’s family, and it’s the 23rd Annual celebration. They all add up to 5! On the Silverhandprint, notice the crime report for Liz’s shooting. The Crashdowns address and the time of the shooting all include 2, 3 and 4s! Someone is sending us a message – maybe it is that we are all nutty!

Cave Map Symbols – All signs lead to Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together? See the discussion of lines and stars above!

The symbol on the necklace that leads to the cave looks like a yin/yang symbol. Audrey11 contributed the following - yin and yang have some references to things that have been discussed. This is a brief list of what they represent, mostly in reference to previous discussions.
Yin - conceived of as earth, female, present in even numbers, valleys and streams, represented by the tiger, the color orange and a broken line.
Yang - conceived of as heaven, male, present in odd numbers, mountains, represented by the dragon, the color azure and an unbroken line.
The concept of yin-yang in Chinese thought is associated with 5 elements: metal, wood, water, fire and earth, this idea lends substance to the characteristically Chinese belief in a cyclical theory of becoming and dissolution and an interdependence between the world of nature and human events.

Skins – What lies below the surface?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the pod squad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seemed to be confined to their husks, but they could be from the same race as the pod squad’s alien predecessors. Many of us think that the pod squad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without being noticed? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? How did the Skins – Nicko - find the Dupes? And could some of these earlier alien visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race or groups of aliens on Earth ? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Shapeshifters – Are there more than one?

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same. Maybe Tic Tac was the Dupes’ shapeshifter who came back to Roswell.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Recently with the discovery of Liz’s change, many have wondered why Harding didn’t know about the change and mention it. Especially after reading the cut scenes from MITC. If Ava knew, Harding should have known and mentioned it. Of course, there are the long lingering questions like: Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions, and his apparent failure to divulge information about Liz and the podsters’ origins. Was his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee”? And what did he do for all those years before Tess hatched? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Again, why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? Why did Harding have such a large collection of antiques, which he was so sensitive about? Had he been around when they were original manufactured – years ago? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Odds and Ends

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection. And who could miss Max grabbing Liz’s hand at mid-night mass and telling Liz, “I believe in you!” in ARCC!

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Dates

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across – PM me if you have one. I have added dates from the Silverhandprint site, but they don’t always jive with the episodes, so take them with a grain of salt.

1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1918 – Charles Dupree born
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1935 – Picture of Michael’s DNA donor, Charles Dupree (Hybrid Chronicle’s promo)
1936 (approximately) – Charles Dupree, Mikey G’s DNA donor, begins to be abducted (Scarlet Moon)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
7/7/1947 – Privates Timothy Mann and Frank DiMuzio find Privates Bill Fifer and Jim McCarthy dead near crash site.
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
1949 – Special Agent Lewis recruited to run FBI Special Unit (Silverhandprint)
1950 – Agent Lewis mentions “butchers at Eagle Rock” to wife [think Eagle Rock Military Base] (Silverhandprint)
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in Delta, CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent DelBianco killed in Union City, TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior (UFO Convention)
9/13/1973 – Kathleen Ann Topolsky, future FBI agent, born in Hartford, Connecticut
1975 – Allister Topolsky born
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Agent McMahon, head of FBI Special Unit, killed (Silverhandprint)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
1983 – Michael’s birthday?
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
3 or 5/7/1983 – Tess’s birthday (I see a 5, others see 3?)(Tess, Lies and Videotapes)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? – Z]
1985 – Pohlman Ranch Excavation (Silverhandprint)
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Max heals pigeon in the park (Toy House)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1990 – Maria’s Dad leaves (Sexual Healing)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1992 – Charles Dupree (Laurie Dupree’s Granddad and Mikey G’s human DNA donor) committed for insanity (silverhandprint)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens from Boston Turnpike (gone 3 days) (silverhandprint)
1993 – Charles Dupree dies at the age of 75 (silverhandprint)
Fall 1993 – Topolsky graduates from U. of Hartford, w/ BA in Psychology
11/1993 – Topolsky’s brother Allister dies of Hodgkin’s Disease
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1997 – Topolsky graduates from U. of Michigan with PhD in Psychology
11/15/1997 – Date on Laurie Dupree’s Psychiatric Hospital Bag (We Are Family)
1999 - Agent Daniel Sommers, head of FBI Special Unit, killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17/1999 – At 3:52 pm Liz Parker is shot, and Max Evans saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!! (Sheriff’s Report – Silverhandprint)
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
9/27/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: arrival in Roswell (Silverhandprint)
9/28/1999 – Topolsky has first day at West Roswell High (Silverhandprint)
9/30/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: confiscated Sheriff’s files & Michael Guerin (Silverhandprint)
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds (Silverhandprint)
10/14/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Suzanne Duff – obviously close friends (Silverhandprint)
10/14/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: Future Week [think Profiles] (Silverhandprint)
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
10/27/1999 – Topolsky e-mails Stephens re: Alex [Even Topolsky notices the “intense” connection between Max and Liz] (Silverhandprint)
10/28/1999 – Liz’s Journal is found (Missing)
10/28/1999 – Liz and Max search Kyle’s for the Journal, & Topolsky recognizes Michael’s artwork as Atherton’s geodesic dome (Silverhandprint)
11/4/1999 – 285 South Begins (Profiles - Silverhandprint)
11/5/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s (Profiles - Silverhandprint)
11/6/1999 – Topolsky orders a Casio Magic Wand (Silverhandprint)
11/9/1999 – Topolsky following pod squad to Atherton’s [Date not consistent with Profiles] (Silverhandprint)
11/11/1999 – Topolsky describes the incident at Atherton’s (Silverhandprint)
11/18/1999 – Max in car accident [think Blood Brothers] (Silverhandprint)
11/19/1999 – Topolsky’s final report (Silverhandprint)
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
12/3/1999 – Liz and Alex wind up in jail after party (Heatwave)
12/4/1999 – Max & Liz share their first kiss (Heatwave)
1/2000 – Frazier Woods SIghting
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/2000 – Beeping in the desert (SH)
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz (SH)
4/8/2000 – FBI Agent Daniel Pierce checks out item 87 kl stone form Special Unit vault (Silverhandprint)
4/8/2000 – Kathleen Topolsky checks out Orb Communicator from FBI Evidence Vault (Silverhandprint)
4/14/2000 – Fire brakes out at Bethesda Psychiatric Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, and Topolsky is listed as among the six patients killed (Silverhandprint)
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/5/2000 – Rare alignment of Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Earth’s Moon and the Sun (4everyoung)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens (Season 2 inconsistency with Season 1)
5/27/2000 – Date Liz enters into the computer for the “constellation alignment” (Season 1)
7/2000 – Grant steals rifle from hunter in New Castle, Wyoming (Disturbing Behavior)
8/2000 – Grant steals oxygen tanks from hospice in Fort Collins, CO (Disturbing Behavior)
9/2000 – Grant steals plastic head box from industrial supply in Las Cruses, NM (DB)
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 11th grade (Monsters) or 12th grade based on comments in Season 2
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed Harding, the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/6/2001 – Special Agent Ragsdale writes Congressman White re: FBI Special Unit (Silverhandprint)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday (Surprise)
12/23/2000 – Max heals 5 kids in U of A Children’s Hospital (ARCC); exact time – 8:33 PM (silverprint)
12/24/2000 – Max attends Midnight Services, expressing his Belief in Liz (ARCC)
1/2001 – The Hybrid Chronicles Begin!
1/15/2001 (oops – silverhandprint made a mistake and had it as 1/15/2000) – Laurie Dupree escapes insane asylum Pine Crest Psychiatric Institute in Brownsfield, Texas – she was 16 years old when committed (silverhandprint)
2/2001 (oops – silverhandprint made a mistake and had it as 2/2000) – National Interrogator published with stories about Roswell storylines (silverhandprint)
4/27/2001 – Roswell High Junior/Senior Prom (silverhandprint)
5/3-5/2001 – Roswell High Production of “May Fair Lady” (AKA Liz) (silverhandprint)
5/24/2001 – Roswell High Senior Awards
6/1/2001 – Roswell High Graduation Rehearsal
2014 – Minutes before the destruction of Earth, Future Liz Convinces Future Max to go back in time and convince Liz to deceive Max into “falling out of love with her” – thus, changing the future (TEOTW)

In Summary

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? The Ava drawings also seem to tie Liz in just by including her, but …? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. I’m also hoping the clues that we have found are up-lifting to the Dreamers out there that just lurk! Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome.

OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS[b/] (even asides about spoilers are not allowed), but anything “aired” is subject to discussion, including coming attractions and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!!

Liz with stagecoach necklace from Viva Las Vegas:

Importance of the repeated "V" pattern and hand-holding:

Here is a great drawing of a diamond (the shape of the granolith) that Metaphysical posted - notice the repeated "V"'s within the shape?

The granolith itself (is Liz it's "keeper"???) Cool animation compliments of Adrian

Liz as Venus:

Liz and Max as twin souls - notice how they come together to form the
"swirl" on the orb activated during Sexual Healing. Also - notice the
"Emergency" sign behind them - when they come to gether it reads "MERGE".
The animation is from the alternate ending to Leaving Normal is currently being moved but will be back up again soon Thanks redhawk
The screencap is of the aired ending of Leaving Normal - here you can see a variation of the orb swirl as well.

Metaphysicalgirl found lots of neat pictures of chakras and crop circles - here is an artists representation of the chakra that corresponds to Max's "royal seal" - notice the eagle and the swirl - both of which are Max/Liz symbols:

Liz as the keeper of/key to the granolith:
Picture of the granolith chamber in the crashdown:

Liz with the word "CHANGE" behind her - from Leaving Normal. I think the
theme of Liz's "emergence" is central to Roswell - Think of Future Max's
line that Liz needed to let herself change.

Liz's Hero Journey is closely linked to images of Liz looking into MIRRORS. The mirror seems to symbolize the transformation Liz is undergoing. Another symbol linked to Liz is that of BUTTERFLIES - an obvious symbol of metamorphasis and change.

Sheila Hubble:

Liz as the Virgin Mary/key to Salvation (::waving to Evid:

The dragon on Liz's window:

Liz as the Trojan Horse (she was avoiding Maria in the Pilot and ate lunch
with Pam TROY). Horses have shown up alot in pictures, etc but here is the
horse that ran in front of Max's jeep in Blood Brothers:

The "destiny" book with the name "LIZ" backwards next to what looks like the
granolith sideways:

Liz and the cave "map" - note the granolith-like symbols near her neck and
towards the top.

Liz and the Childhoods End book:

Liz is also often shown with SUNFLOWERS or SUNS - a symbol that links her to Max - who is closely associated with the SUN. Here she is with her latest sunflowers - little sunflower lights. Also notice the "V" pattern on her blanket.

The cross and the sugar cubes:

Images thanks to crashdown, shapeshifter, redhawk and a HUGE thanks to
www.theddd.com who are kind enough to
supply custom screencaps for our gallery.
THANKS!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

{~}:}

Other than the obvious the bride here has short blonde hair *RD scratches her head* I couldn't help thinking about the fact that Isabel was in this bit as well. Remember how the whole Vilondra thing was brought up? Well Isabel does something to make the stain on the bride's dress disappear but the bride doesn't really know what she was doing. Also when she goes to the groom and bestman ...

The groom has his eyes blindfolded so he doesn't know what she's doing either. Now she hooks up with the best man BUT she doesn't end up with him because she leaves him.

quote:Originally posted by StarBox: (most excellent find btw)

BUT - in terms of Liz Mythology - the most telling thing was the inclusion of the play My Fair Lady on May 3-5. There are the big LIZ numbers again - 3 and 5 and the story of My Fair Lady could be a parallel:
A aristocratic man changes a common girl into
a "princess" of sorts (the queen mistakes her for a princess)
She falls in love with him but he can not admit he loves her back (because of their class diference)
So - she leaves - he realises he DOES love her - she comes back
It is based on the myth of Pygmalion

You think Max was really marrying Tess even though he was in love with Liz. So then Tess really was the bride? Please tell me I'm wrong . And how would Liz fall into the whole Vilondra thing on the home planet if she was in fact the bride?? Ohh I need a double dosis of dreamer reading tonight .

{~}:}

Met - Please don't worry! I've saved all the information you posted and I'm working it into the new Intro - but I've just not had enought time to finish it, and want to do a good job! IT WILL BE THERE!! I PROMISE!

Got to "run" to a coaches meeting - track season starts soon!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

This insane spec popped in my head, I don't know if it's already been brought up in here, but I thought I'd throw it out to y'all in any case

It seems Zan, Ava, Vilandra, Rath were in reference to the protopodsters in their past lives (granted, that's arguable I suppose, but oh well) - I wonder, however, if they're not NAMES necessarily, but Antarian TITLES?

**Antarian >> English**
Zan >> King
Ava >> Bride/Wife/Queen
Vilandra >> Princess/sister
Rath >> 2nd/Prince/General/Soldier (?)

This would mean that protoMax/Isabel's parents, in theory, were ALSO "Zan and Ava"... the title of "Zan" passed down to protoMax when his father died. Hence, all Kings before protoMax were ALSO "Zan".

What do you think y'all, feasible or insanity?

Melodious

Shapeshifter - did you ever get The Sacred Romance?

Moon - good to see you back - I HATE moving. Hope you are all settled in quickly.

RoswellDiva - FANTASTIC catch on the Las Vegas "wedding" possible foreshadowing/parallel. GraceKel is gonna LOVE it! I think you may be on to something.
Especially if Khivar/Ava were related somehow (as many have speculated) - it would have given a big motive for Vilondra to manipulate a political union between the two houses.

I am going to repost the stuff on My Fair Lady/Pygmalion since it was at the end of the last thread:
In terms of Liz Mythology - the most telling thing was the inclusion of the play My Fair Lady on May 3-5. There are the big LIZ numbers again - 3 and 5 and the story of My Fair Lady could be a parallel:
A aristocratic man changes a common girl into
a "princess" of sorts (the queen mistakes her for a princess)
She falls in love with him but he can not admit he loves her back (because of their class diference)
So - she leaves - he realises he DOES love her - she comes back
It is based on the myth of Pygmalion

From the Encyclopedia Brittanica:

"in Greek mythology, a king of Cyprus who fell in love with a statue of the goddess Aphrodite (Venus). The Roman poet Ovid, in his Metamorphoses, invented a more sophisticated version: Pygmalion, a sculptor, made an ivory statue representing his ideal of womanhood and then fell in love with his own creation; the goddess Venus brought the statue to life in answer to his prayer."

Hmmmmm - so a KING falls in love with Venus....

Painting of Pygmalion and Galetea:

I have a long mytholgy post I have been researching for a while but I will post in the morning. You all ought to read the "Maria Mythology thread" - page one - thereis a poster who has a frighteningly well thought out and documented theory that the JETTA is Maria's father! I was ROFL - but scary thing is - it all makes sense!! Nemo - you need to post your granolith /VW symbol for her - she would DIE!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Awwww, man . Zero I also should have gone to re-edit my post and apart from thanking you for starting the thread applaud you for what a wonderful job you always do at keeping everything up to date and flowing. Starbox** as well. I'm sorry for not having said it before either. Shame on me

quote:
It seems Zan, Ava, Vilandra, Rath were in reference to the protopodsters in their past lives (granted, that's arguable I suppose, but oh well) - I wonder, however, if they're not NAMES necessarily, but Antarian TITLES?

**Antarian >> English**
Zan >> King
Ava >> Bride/Wife/Queen
Vilandra >> Princess/sister
Rath >> 2nd/Prince/General/Soldier (?)

This would mean that protoMax/Isabel's parents, in theory, were ALSO "Zan and Ava"... the title of "Zan" passed down to protoMax when his father died. Hence, all Kings before protoMax were ALSO "Zan".

What do you think y'all, feasible or insanity?

Whoa. That makes way to much sense . Melodious are you saying Tess was also Max's sister .?I thought about that and how the Egyptians also married their sibblings off like Cleopatra and her brother. Now I seriously hope Liz isn't related.

Uhm... no actually. I was saying ProtoMax/Isabel's PARENTS were probably also "Zan and Ava", according to my theory. ProtoIsabel was always "Vilandra" (or "Princess" acc. to my theory). When protoMax's father died, protoMax inherited the title "Zan", but protoIsabel was STILL "Vilandra" (she wasn't heir to the throne?). When the new Zan/protoMax married protoTess .... protoTess became the NEW "Ava" (or Queen), usurping the title from protoMax's mother (the former "Ava").

Melodious

RoswellDiva: awesome theory on the symbolism of the VLV marriage. Can't wait to hear Nemo's take on it. I had caught that it was symbolic, but hadn't been able to disect it.

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
...You all ought to read the "Maria Mythology thread" - page one - thereis a poster who has a frighteningly well thought out and documented theory that the JETTA is Maria's father! I was ROFL - but scary thing is - it all makes sense!! ...Starbox, it is a riot! See at: http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/006079.html

Just watched my SP copy of LP copy of LP copy of Missing and managed to glean a tidbit for the RBI Mythologists:
Right over Max's right should are the words: Roswell Rods and Real Facts just as Liz gives this speech in a touchingly intimate moment: quote:LIZ: No...I know you think that I was foolish, you know, to write about that day and you and everything. What I wrote in my journal, it didn't really have anything to do with science. Um...that day that you saved me, I felt something that I just had to put into words...so years from now, if anyone ever...if anyone ever touches me the way that you did, I'll know what it's supposed to feel like.

and also w/ liz saying that there's this energy or fire between max and liz and that you don't want to let that go and that they haven't reach the full potential.... more foreshadowing? it's like she has some sort of innate idea that unite max and liz will be such a strong force, but w/ what obstacle that is happening right now, it's still far from that wholeness..

am i making sense?

it's late.
time to catch on sleep. i've been awake for 20 hours now.

The Chariot (this is not a very good image of a chariot card - but its the only one I could find on the web)

The person standing inside the chariot - is the LOVER - here is his card:

The LOVER represents a mans CHOOSING when they reach sexual maturity. Note the two women at his sides the lover must make a choice. There is only one road to happiness - he must choose wisely (Venus) and be lead to the place of blessing. If he chooses unwisely - the path is to hell (and who was it that said "Max Evans can just go to hell....????")

But - back to the Chariot.
The chariot represnts control - but "hard control" (that is control that takes effort and discipline). The chariot should be drawn by horses (its not in this paticular artist's rendition) - but you can see here that both animals appear to be pulling in opposite directions. In between them on the chariot are the letters "SM" which stand for the alchemy elements SULFUR (sulfur=Venus=Liz) and MERCURY (mercury=the sun=Max).
"it is the person who has overcome opposition and by strength of will brought together contrary tendencies. We are in the sphere of personal action set in space and time. Calamity has been avoided, the man (or woman) has taken themselves in hand and is the triumphant master of their fate"
**My Note - I thought this sounded very close to where Liz thinks she is right now - after EOTW she has "avoided calamity" and through "hard control" and "strength of will" is doing what she believes she has to do.*****

Now - here is the biggie. The chariot also suggests a person who only THINKS they have control. They are oblivious to the fact that unless they steer corrrectly - they will run into the 10th card - which is THE WHEEL OF FORTUNE. One of their animals is steering towards it and on some cards one of the chariot wheels is shown in profile - foreshdowing the Wheel of Fortune.

The WHEEL OF FORTUNE (which BTW - is shown in Roswell with all the wheels - and is related to TESS (in my opinion) - there is the promininet wheel in Wipeout (right after the Max/Liz breakup and Tess is shwon talking to Max in the Crashdown in EOTW with the same huge wheel next to her)

This card represents a "feeling bound to DESTINY" (I did not make that up)
It also can represent death and rebirth in an endless cycle of fate (Run Lola Run anyone???).
"The Wheel of Fortune also represents unexpected encounters and twists of fate. You can't predict surprises; you can only be aware when one is circling around. Indeed, Card 10 often suggests wheel-like actions - changes in direction, repeating cycles and rapid movement. When the energy of the Wheel arrives, you will feel life speed up. You are caught in a cyclone that may deposit you anywhere. "Round and round and round she goes, and where she stops, nobody knows."

***My Note - so if Liz is not careful - her "hard control" is going to run her smack into the wheel of fortune - where history/destiny will just be repeated with the same disastarous results***

On the other hand - the second horse Or sphinx in my picture) is headed toward the HIEROPHANT or POPE).
This card represents the attainment and transmission to a group of SECRET KNOWLEDGE.
Belonging to a group and working with the group towards a higher cause is emphasised by this card - as is the connection/relationship between heaven (the universe) and earth.

***My Note - Liz needs to steer clear of the wheel of life and destiny-schmestiny and ATTAIN SOME HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE!! Then she will be able to rejoin and guide the group (they will finally get their "plan") and they will be able to work together for the higher cause.****

Whew! and all that from a little ole necklace - just goes to show - it ALL comes back to Max and Liz!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Argo

Max & Liz must reunite!!

Zero Thanks for another wonderful start. You know, we can tell that you're not JK b/c you're better than JK!
~Tas

Hi everyone.

ok now I am going to go back and read

I think I've finally found it, and it's rather interesting It's a variation of a double chevron style of Seminole patchwork. It's not in the bright colours favoured by the Seminole Native Americans, but it's the same style. It also looks similar to the Streak of Lightning arrangement for Log Cabin blocks (but it's not a log cabin design). The Mountain/River reference I made earlier were specific designs, not design types. I just wanted to throw that out there; I thought it was neat that it was a Native American design (even if it's a Floridian tribe! ).
~Tas

thanks Metaphysicalgrl.

And a BIG "Your Welcome" to all the nice Thank Yous!

I'm going to be out most of the day today, but wanted to check in, and what a great beginning!!

StarBox - That is so incredible! Amazing the direct correlation to the storyline! I'm going to have so much fun finishing the up-date to the Intro for Thread #35!! You all have provided so much fun "thought" material to incorporate!

Who - and welcome to all newbies (there was someone at the end of last thread that I forgot to welcome, so please forgive me) and lurkers and recent returnees!! We love to hear your thoughts!

Shaiwon - I'm in the process of listening to all the commentaries for all the episodes - the recent "interviews" inspired me to "look back" to see if there is anything of interest. When I'm done, I will post what I find, but it is interesting to listen to the comments of some after the fact! So many potential "clues."

Argo - Welcome!! I too look forward to seeing Liz "use" her powers more! I really think the writers are holding back on us - waiting for a big pay-off! At least I hope so - because there is SO much potential fun there!!

Tasyfa - Thanks for the compliment, but I find the comparison to JK a tremendous compliment - I think he is a incredible storyteller and writer. The episodes JK has written tend to be my favorite - even if they make me sad like TEOTW! I believe he will pull this all out and tie much of it together by the end! I truly believe that though I have nothing but the clues we have found to base that on! He just doesn't strike me as a "90210" type of writer - he is way too talented to fall back on that "easy way out" to get ratings. I know he has had pressure from TPTB - but I do think that Liz will prevail and that some of the loose ends will be tied up by the end - with some to be solved in Season 3 (ever the optimist!) !

Well - off to work!! See you all much later!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
(Ever the Optimist!!)

Zero Our fearless leader, what would we ever do without you? How you keep all of our ramblings together, I will never know. But another big, hearty, thank you goes out in your direction for all of your hard work.

Starbox and Roswelldiva Great Pygmalian theories!!

Starbox Incredible Tarot theories. I couldn't see the pictures, but found the simmilarities to be amazing. Good Work!!! One thing I was thinking of when reading your post, was the reference to Wheels. I'm sure this has already been discussed, but the biggest and most significant wheel we see on Roswell (IMHO) is the Balance Wheel. Anyhow, just thought I would throw that in there.

Ok this goes out to Everyone. I realize that a lot of us are spoiled, especially during the hiatus. I would like to request to those posters that are spoiled to take extra care to keep spoiler speculation off of this thread. I'm going to repost the rules section from Zero's introduction, in case anyone missed 'em....

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS[b/] (even asides about spoilers are not allowed), but anything “aired” is subject to discussion, including coming attractions and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Allrighty then, just wanted to give everyone a gentle reminder.

{~}:}

**Antarian >> English**
Zan >> King
Ava >> Bride/Wife/Queen
Vilandra >> Princess/sister
Rath >> 2nd/Prince/General/Soldier (?)

This would mean that protoMax/Isabel's parents, in theory, were ALSO "Zan and Ava"... the title of "Zan" passed down to protoMax when his father died. Hence, all Kings before protoMax were ALSO "Zan".

What do you think y'all, feasible or insanity?

Melodious

Thank you Zero
Hate to burst your bubble Meoldy, but didn't Congresswoman Whittaker say to Isabel "Your NAME was Vilandra"?

Interesting stuff about the Chariot and even more interesting that Liz's necklace is a stagecoach which is sort of a more modern version of a chariot isn't it?

Oh and I want tot ell you that AOL has been featuring photos from the Hubble telescope! The one on the main AOl welcome screen is none other than our Whirlwind (is that what it's called?) Galaxy! the one Liz saw when she kissed Max. Hmm it's a sign!

I saw a feature on ET about Star trek Voyager's last episode of the series and they said it ties up loose ends so... we should have faith that our Roswell writers will eventually tie up our loose ends. especially since they know we're on to them!!

"This your brain on spoilers! "
StephStephSteph

So True

are you talking to me? I thought that it was okay to talk about silverhandprint stuff. If you have a better idea of a thread that my post would be suited for please PM me.

I thought that it might be a neat clue (if it is anything at all) I don't feel that I have said anything wrong unless..... [/B]

I PM'd ya. Just so everyone knows, that post wasn't directed at you, it was just a gentle reminder for everyone.

{~}:}

{~}:}

This your brain on spoilers!

Gotcha ! You're saying "Zan'" /"Vilandra" are respective titles like Augusta or Caesar etc. ! I think you're right but then is there something else going on if so because:

This from MTD:
AVA: We were family. The four of us.

LONNIE: Things change.

Ava didn't say LIKE a family...she siad they WERE a famiy. Then another thing that worries me is would Vilandra also have the royal seal on her head ? [i]

MAX: I don't even know what the war's about.

RATH: We know it's about us...the original royal four. Some kind of revolution happened, and they were all killed and sent to earth to be reborn. Ever since then, the hood's been a war zone. And now they want peace. I know you're not Zan, and I know it's kinda screwed to lay all this stuff on you, but this meant a lot to him. He's our peace. He's our chance to do something with this life. This is it.

MAX: I'm not Zan.

and in WO :

NICHOLAS: What happened to you, guy? You used to determine the fate of entire armies with the flip of a coin. Luckily for me, you continue to put your faith in the wrong people. Does this scene feel familiar, Vilandra? And your trusted second...the boy who spilled the secret of the granilith to one of our exiled members. Rule number one of war: keep your big mouth shut. Courtney knew that. That's why she killed herself before I could get its exact location. By the way, love the hair. Hope you win. There's one more thing I need to know before we can all call it a day. Where's the granilith?

MAX: I'm not telling you.

NICHOLAS: Oh...you will.
(...)

NICHOLAS: This is too easy. In the old days, I would've been no match for you. But...now...

(Nicholas grabs Max's head and starts draining his memory)

Tasyfa--thanks for the heads up on Michaels chain as early as Ask Not you said, for some reason the first time I noticed this was in TSAP but I guess I goofed, oh well. Will have to go back and look again

Nemo--what exact part of Summer of 47 should I be looking for the numbers, I have the episode on tape so I certainly can check it out but I did sort of fast forward through the episode but didn't exactly know when to really look for these numbers, can you give me a clue or hint?

RowellDiva--wow incredible symbolism with the bride stuff in VLV-hmmm will have to give this some more thought myself now.

Starbox--great job with the Stagecoach, Tarrot, and Wheel analysis. All these things make perfect sense of course.

Tasyfa--thanks for the info on the quilts as well.

Guys I have NO ACCESS to this SILVERHANDPRINT stuff I am depending on you to drag it over here for me LOL--so please do. Did I hear somebody say that Alex was interviewing with a WINDMILL in the background--huge symbolic theme last season, I sure wish I could see this stuff. And the backpacker he met---did anyone else think of TICTAC the HIKER??????? LOL Oh well I don't know it was just my first thought.

RATH: We know it's about us...the original royal four. Some kind of revolution happened, and they were all killed and sent to earth to be reborn. Ever since then, the hood's been a war zone. And now they want peace. I know you're not Zan, and I know it's kinda screwed to lay all this stuff on you, but this meant a lot to him. He's our peace. He's our chance to do something with this life. This is it.

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it interesting that Rath says...

they were all killed and sent to earth to be reborn...

Shouldn't he have said...We were all killed and sent to earth to be reborn?

Hmmmmmmmmmm.........

{~}:}

Met - interesting observation! Also, note in the picture Liz's noticable "absence"! She choose not to 'join' the circle, but appears in the vision when Max approaches Micheal! I have to think about this, but with StarBox's findings I believe there is something to it!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

On the interviews with Tess, I agree with everyone's suspicions of why she says Nicholas ruins everything. What stood out the most to me, though, was right before that when she says that Nicholas "really disturbs us". I mean Nicholas was out to envade their minds, kill them, and steal an object of great power in order to rule the world..... And all she can come up with is "disturbing". That's something you say about an annoying relative, not someone out to kill you! You would have thought she'd have said "He scaried us to death" or something.

Anyway.......

I just thought I'd share this little fantasy with all the dreamers, during this terrible, terrible hiatus, about how I thought Max should find out about the whole TEOTW thing. Since it was time travel that caused this rift between Max and Liz, wouldn't it be interesting if it was time travel that got them back together.
Suppose, that present Max accidently got thrown into a possible future by the Granalith, where he found a world very much like the future from TEOTW except in this one, the reason the world is ending is because Liz never told Max about what happend in TEOTW which eventually resulted in him and the podsters leaving to save Antar and leaving the humans on Earth. ( I know, I know, everyone, including me, hopes and prays that Max wouldn't ever do such a thing even if Liz never told him what happened) So as a result both Antar and Earth are dying because the union of both the humans and the podsters was necessary to defeat their enemies. The tragedy is that Future Liz did completely grow into her powers, which weren't stunted by a premuture "union" with Max, but without each other neither was strong enough to save their respective planets. Present Max sees this possible future and becomes completely aware of the importance of the humans and the podsters to each other. Future Liz, of course, helps PM to get back to his "real" time through the Granalith for the presents third chance to get things right (Run, Lola, Run?). Before she sends him, though, she tells him of the events of TEOTW and warns him that while both PMax and PLiz need to grow that they both still need each other in every way possible, heart, mind, body and soul, and to not ever let anything come between them, not even their own preconceptions of duty and fate. PMax returns to the present where he finds everyone in a panic because he has been missing. Liz, who had been torn apart by Max's disapperance, realizes how much she needs him and finally tells Max the truth. Then Max would simply look into her eyes and say, "I know." ( Big sigh from my poor dreamer heart)

OOpps! that was longer than I thought. Didn't mean to start a small fanfic, just kinda got carried away.

Anyway, great theories everyone! and good luck in staying sane for the next several weeks!

RW

And starbox, did I mention that I loved your pygmalion theory post?
Painting of Pygmalion and Galetea:

[/B][/QUOTE]

Will have to read the rest of the latest posts and the silverhandprint update on Alex later. Bye

Here are the Tarot images:


The "balance" wheel (could it be the "destiny "wheel"????) The similarity is striking.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

It's great to read all these different theories and I hope someone can help me with this. I was thinking about Liz's "powers". We really haven't seen anything since MITC and I was wondering, what if Ava was wrong, what if Liz hasn't been changed. What if the bond between is so powerful and that's why she was able to connect with Max. Maybe they are joined somehow. I keep wondering why TPTB haven't show Liz doing more is she does have powers now. What we mistake for powers may well be some bond they've always had that has laid dormant all these years and will strenthen more and they face more adventures together.

I'm not sure if I've explained myself properly but I hope someone understands what I mean.

Also, I LOVE the met poster of the Pygmalian story. Post it on every page of the thread so I won't have to go back looking for it, would ya?

AND, I finally got over to the archives to http://www.olde.worlde.btinternet.co.uk/wrfanfic.html

to read WR's "The Importance of Being Elizabeth." HIGHLY recommended! A cure for what ails! (Okay, I'm not finished with it yet, but it's very very good. The opening paragraph of the Prologue sent shivers up my spine!)

One last thing - whoever said something about "The Sacred Romance" PM me! I was sorting through stacks of books today and found a copy of it; I don't remember ever reading it, though... Should I? Is it Liz Myth recommended?

Thanks!
Zara

Zero: Great intro, as always. Wow thread #35 is going to start taking up the entire first page, excellent.

For those of you that have not downloaded the Max and Liz trailer over at the WB site, I brought over the link. I have to warn you it's a real tear jerker, but you will be in Dreamer Heaven. "I'm coming for you Liz," oh be still my heart. I recommend playing your favorite Max and Liz song along with it. I chose I Well Love You, by Amy Fisher.

http://thewb.com/roswell/maxliz/maxliz.html

Evid

You guys are the best of both worlds.
Dreaming Sci-Fi

IT!!!!!

And Zero, is this the ep that inspired you for your Aliens Landed Here Long Ago and We Are All Descendants Theory? Even though Isabel pooh-poohs Alex, he points out that the symbols are like those from Machu Pichu. Also, the Machu Pichu are indigeous people as are River Dog and his people.

Another Balance thing: As they are taking sick Michael upstairs for safe keeping, Liz says with emphasis and for no apparent reason, "I'll go first." This seems like foreshadowing.

And, one more last Balance thing: Did we already notice that as Max is leaving her on the roof (much like in TEOTW) she looks up and sees the V constellation.

First - Welcome to Newbies!!

RW - love your mini-FanFic! So great - and totally ties in the sci-fi with the clues we have identified!

I have finally finished relistening to all the "commentaries" on Season 2. I'm too tired now to post my thoughts , but I promise to be back tomorrow! I took notes.

Also - do go catch the Liz/Max clip that the WB has posted. It is not spoilerish at all - though maybe it tells us that they (TPTB) are finally wising up and will bring them back together. But who knows! I like the evolving Liz a lot - though I still think that together they will be a FORCE to reckon with! !

I'm totally exhausted - so 'Night All!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Shapeshifter - we must have been posting at the same time. Yes - the references to ancient civilizations is where I got the idea that the aliens visited before and that there may be a common ancestor. Of course, this is not an original idea as any "X-File" fan will know - there is a running plot line there that the aliens have been around for a long time - though nothing about common ancestory has been suggested that I'm aware of. I still think it is a great storyline possibility to explain the REASON WHY the podsters were sent in human form, with human DNA, to Earth.

Okay - now I'm going to sleep!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

For a REAL fanfic,though, everyone should go read WR's. I read it last night. It's great!

RW

For a REAL fanfic,though, everyone should go read WR's. I read it last night. It's great!

RW

I agree with you about this! WR has done a great job integrating aspects of the show into his fanfic that are fascinating!

I have a question. Someone mentioned to me recently that Liz's birthday is April 24th. Is this known? Surmized? Have you mythologists discussed her birthday at all?

Thanks - it just made me curious.

Starbox!!- How on earth do you ever find this stuff? Did theddd.com ever send you those screen caps from HTOHL? The ones that picture Grandpa Dupree's hand written notes?

Does anyone here know how to enlarge and clarify an image with small print so it can be read? Everyone here seems so smart I just thought one of you all might know.

I love all the theorys you all come up with, I wonder if the writers (Or set designers) accually know they are making all these connectons. I would love to see the reaction of one of them that had read Zero's intro. It would be priceless. Can I send them the intro Zero? The only problem is how do you know that whoever checks the e-mail won't just delete it instead of printing it off to give to the writers? I wish I could personally deliver it, to make sure they would read it. Then maybe they would go about answering some of these questions.

[b]Starbox!!
I love all the theorys you all come up with, I wonder if the writers (Or set designers) accually know they are making all these connectons. I would love to see the reaction of one of them that had read Zero's intro.
[/B]

Hey - speaking of questions, have we heard anything back yet on the ones we already submitted? Anything? I know I'm supposed to be patient, but when it was my turn to stand in line to get some patience, I had to leave it was taking too long!!

Hmmmm... Any updates?

Smiles,
{~}:}

I have a question. Someone mentioned to me recently that Liz's birthday is April 24th. Is this known? Surmized? Have you mythologists discussed her birthday at all?

Thanks - it just made me curious.

Provence - Welcome !

As far as I know - and I try to keep really close track of this stuff - I have never seen an actual date for her birthday - only her birthyear in some timeline that was on the Crashdown a while back. Maybe that is Shiri's actual birthday??

Also - as to the Questions? Met - my contact told me that their source was afraid that they might get in trouble given the lock down on info from the set, so may have to wait to get "official" answers until the end of the season. I totally appreciate that - so said we would be patient since I DO BELIEVE there will be a Season 3! (Always the optimist!)

Dreamertoo - Of course you can get the intro to anyone you want on the show! I would LOVE to get feed back. But so far I'm not sure we have had any luck getting it to anyone??? I do plan a new up-date (in fact working on it this afternoon) to the Intro - so you might want to wait since the Chaka and Stagecoach/Chariot stuff is soooo interesting!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Hey Zero!

That's awesome!!! The fact that they WANT to reply at all makes me really happy. I'll happily wait until the end of the season. If we are on the money with some of our observations, it might provide us with good brain candy for the break!

I agree that it is much appreciated and worth the wait. How cool will it be when they actually answer us???

{~}:}

quote:Originally posted by c. mccoy:
All those that feel that way will be happy to know this season's writers won't be back next year. They're bringing back some of last season's & some new ones.
Jonathan Frakes - along with JK of course - will be in full control next year. JF's just been too busy this year to give Roswell his full attention.
Well, that could be good news about the writers. I do feel, like a lot of others do also, that the second season writers can't quite make the connection between all of the ongoing season 2 eps not to mention season 1. It just seems a bit disjointed sometimes. With season 1 as a book, I would never have been able to set it down. But season 2 has some definite stopping points. Have I mentioned WO and Har.?

Okay, now how did I get on that mini-rant? Must go watch that quicktime video again.

StarBox - Here is the new address: http://redhawksreality.homestead.com/files/pics/LNdfend.gif
I sent you a PM also.

Let's try this lovely shot one more time.

hibiscuss : I don't know how comfortable I am with Liz having superpowers all of a sudden either but if by powers you mean stuff like telepathy and astro travel (what she did to 'save' Max ) I agree could have been there before. Remember that "aliens" are just humans evolved like 3000 years more. Who knows what things we are capable of doing with rest of the % of brain power we have unused.

RW : most excellent minifan fiction! Thats very creative !!
quote:Originally posted by dreamertoo:
Does anyone here know how to enlarge and clarify an image with small print so it can be read?

dreamertoo : I can enlarge an image for you but perosnally I don't have anything that focuses small print after its enlarged so it might be a bit difficult to read. I suppose it depends on what kind of resolution you have on the image with the print (if you got it from a still on tv might be hard). But I'll definatley give it try if you want .

O ... M ... G! There is a God ! I can finally see Redhawk's
animations again!! hadn't been able to in soo long and i didn't wanna tell you I loved your work Redhawk if I really couldn't see so I wouldn't be bsing you (even though I knew it was probably amazing )! Its a miracle!

You still haven't gotten an answer to your questions yet Met??

I'm going to assume here that everyone has watched that deliriously happy little movie at the WB (well, that's how I felt!). Anyway, I had a couple of observations:
-the S&B flash part that was showed was the kiss in the Eraser Room from SH just after Max has the flash of Liz as a little girl
-the EOTW flash part that was showed was of Max and Liz as kids the day he first saw her
-the only dialogue that was kept was, "I'm coming for you, Liz."

So, here's what I've been thinking. These three things tie together--they've been connected since they were children. Most of us agree on that. But it would have been much esier to produce the movie without the line of dialogue, so why is it there? Is it perhaps meant to signify the true reason that Max is on Earth? That that moment of recognition when they first saw each other really was each recognizing the other from their previous life together?

I realize that I'm reaching here, but it just kind of jumped out at me that they would choose those particular images, combined with that sound byte. Thoughts, anyone?

I have some observations to post later from some other stuff but I don't have time now
~Tas

Zero, please sort this theory out and let me know if it holds water, so to speak!

Bistyboo1974

Zara - I mentioned The Sacred Romance - it is well worth reading if you happen to find it laying around :-)

Dreamer - I havent put in the screencap request yet - but I promise to get on it right away!

Shapeshifter - loved the balance observations

I forget who it was that had a theory based on the WB Max and Liz montage but I LOVED it.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

We didn't buy it, but I know where to find it when I need it...

Happy Friday night, all! BTW, I finally found a copy of Run Lola Run at the Movie Gallery! It's movie night!

The Convention does a lot to flesh out the Roswell Mythology. I really do wish they had just let Max, Michael, and Isabel be 100% alien, but anyway, first a 2 minor things:
Thing One: In the first scene of Convention Michael is wearing a predominantly displayed tee-shirt that says "Westside Warriors." We all now know about his warrior status, but he also does as much to save Max as anything Valenti does in the ep.

Thing Two: Hubble's pictures of dead people with the silver iron-on include a man who looks a lot like Dan, Valenti's old acquaintance who appears in the Hybrid Chronicles.

And, more importantly:

I keep coming back to Hubble talking about seeing stars when he kissed Sheila. What if Sheila had been "changed" by an alien before she married Hubble? Maybe by Original Zan in an early visit. Maybe Nasedo thought/knew the baby would have alien powers and so...

Also stopping by quickly to say Redhawk, your fanart and the quicktime video are amazing!! Thanks for sharing such an awesome talent with us..

One thing - In the last thread, several people stated that there seems to be nothing in common with Ava and Tess. However, they are both outsiders to their group; Tess because she assumes that she's one of the gang (when she SO isn't); and Ava, well, because she isn't bloodthirsty. (Lonnie tells her that she keeps her around "because I love you." Ava says Zan was always looking for someone else.) The changeling thing also works for this -- Ava is supposed to be part of the Roswell 4; Tess is supposed to be part of the NY 4. I have other pet theories about the whole Ava/Tess thing, but since this IS the importance of Liz, not A/T, I'll refrain from going on, and on, and on....

Also, NY info for the dupes. The NYC Subway system began in 1904 (and only cost a nickel until 1948). By about 1947, Robert Moses was in full swing with his "mass transit sucks, we need more highways" mentality, so the subways were pretty much left on their own until the 80s (by the time Moses fell from grace, the city was bankrupt). So the dupes could easily have been hidden there for years and years andyears. Although it doesn't feel like it, I think they do heat the subway platforms, and one would think/hope that someone would have siphoned off a heating duct for the dupes' lair.

As far as Liz is concerned (since that is the title of the thread), it's very important to me that she be human. It doesn't concern me that Max might have loved Tess in a previous life -- we all know that he f****d up in that life; they all did. I have to think they chose earth and humans for a reason -- but I'm beginning to ramble.

Loved the Tarot info; now I want to go through and pick a card for all of them. But maybe I've been reading too much Jung.

Sagan in The Demonhaunted World discusses aliens as modern permutations of the supernatural (fairies, elves, etc.). Which is why I love this thread so much.

I guess I've run on and on enough. Oh, and I loved loved loved all the descriptions of the physics of the granolith. That was just beautiful.

One thing -- I found it interesting that you would call Liz a "Trojan Horse" --- seeing as the Trojan Horse is a symbol of deception and defeat (to the Trojans); or of twisted cunning (to the Greeks). I'd rather see the horse imagery as symbolic of the freedom that Liz represents -- free will, as opposed to destiny and predetermination, which are limiting. In this way, shouldn' t they be trying to break the wheel of fortune -- because when you break a circle, it becomes a spiral, where outcomes reflect each other, but there is still room for growth -- a combination of a linear sense and a circular sense? In sending the royal 4 to earth, perhaps they are trying to give the gift of free will?

In The Silmarillion, the delineation between Elves and Humans is that Humans have free will. Elves don't -- their actions are predetermined, that's why they are allowed to live forever. Half-human, half-elven characters (Hybrids) have to choose their path. So Elrond had a twin brother, Elros, who chose humanity and free will. Elrond chose long life and destiny. Perhaps this is the choice facing the royal 4? Max can choose Liz (free will), or Tess (destiny). If he chooses destiny, the destruction will happen again (I agree that FMax was mistaken about the problems with Tess in EOTW; he did not need to BE with Tess, he just didn't need her to freak out about it. And also, I agree with all the Liz needing to develop her powers, etc., etc.)

But I was going to end this 500 words ago. Next time I'll write this in appleworks and cut and paste, so I can edit.

I'm looking forward to hearing any reactions you may have.

I also don't have a problem with original Zan having loved original Ava. But I would have a serious problem if there was any suggestion that it was close to what Max feels for Liz. And I especially do not wish to see any 'Tess is Max's alien soulmate and Liz is his human soulmate, which one will he choose?', scenario either.

Max Evans is not original Zan and Tess is not original Ava. Their human DNA and their experiences on earth have shaped new personalities. I'm sure the home planet thought they were doing the right thing, sending the royals with their mates so they would not be alone while they 'use their skills to defeat the enemy, before returning home to free their people' (to paraphrase the mommogram). But I can't see where they need to 'mate' in order to do that. I believe they have the choice whether to be with their mates, which is why I still have a problem with Tess. Isabel and Michael have been allowed to exercise that choice, but Max is not allowed to because Tess will leave and cause the end of the world. How selfish is that?

I really appreciate the fresh perspective of new posters, especially this:
quote:Originally posted by Trelaina:
...One thing -- I found it interesting that you would call Liz a "Trojan Horse" --- seeing as the Trojan Horse is a symbol of deception and defeat (to the Trojans); or of twisted cunning (to the Greeks). I'd rather see the horse imagery as symbolic of the freedom that Liz represents -- free will, as opposed to destiny and predetermination, which are limiting. In this way, shouldn' t they be trying to break the wheel of fortune -- because when you break a circle, it becomes a spiral, where outcomes reflect each other, but there is still room for growth -- a combination of a linear sense and a circular sense? In sending the royal 4 to earth, perhaps they are trying to give the gift of free will?...
And I also appreciated the subway history info. As far as heating in the subways, maybe the hybrids don't need too much heat since they don't do well in Sweat ceremonies.

Thanks everyone
Tas

Zero, please sort this theory out and let me know if it holds water, so to speak!

Bistyboo1974

I completely noticed this in the 2-minute M&L QT movie that was just put up! When FLiz touches her fingertips to the granolith, its light brightens, becomes whiter, and then when she flattens her palm against it the light returns to that wicked green. I think it's shown really well in redhawk's new animation, "Sacrifice." redhawk, would you post that here? Pretty pretty please??!!
~Tas

I just wanted to come and add my two cents on a few subjects. I re-watched the Pilot last night and I definitely agree that the "we have to get rid of her" line was supposed to be there. First of all, it's the only distinct back-ground dialogue that can be heard in that scene which suggests that whoever said it had a microphone to make sure the line was actually heard. Second, and this has always puzzled me, if I got in a fight with someone who eventually pulled a gun on me I would not suddenly buddy up with that person and run off together. The whole scene just screams conspiracy if you ask me and it's a shame that the writers have just let that plot twist fade into oblivion.

Another thing that's been mentioned on this thread before and that I wanted to comment on is the Tess/Ava name theory. I agree that since Nasedo raised Tess he would have named her Ava. I'm assuming that Max, Michael, and Isabel only have new/human names because they didn't remember their previous lives and names. However, the only explanation for Nasedo (who obviously has full knowledge of the Royal 4's previous names and lives) not naming Tess Ava would have to be that she isn't really Ava aka Antar queen/bride.

While I'm on the subject of names, does anyone has an idea of the significance of Michael calling Max both Maxwell and Maximilian at different times? I don't remember this subject ever being discussed and I just find it odd that Michael uses both names. Maybe someone can post instances where Michael called Max one name and when he called him the other.

Anyway--I'll let you all get back to discussing more current theories now. I just wanted to show my support for ideas that have come up in the past and let you know how much I enjoy your thread!

Edited because I can't spell.

StarBox--I love the Tarot Card stuff.

Trelaina--I love your post. And I agree with most of what you are saying. Although I have to admit I am partial to the Liz as the True Queen and Tess/Ava as her handmaiden/guard theory. It doesn't bother me either way if Liz is a full human, a changed human, or a better hidden alien. I just know that she is important to them and necessary.

But thanks so much for the subway info and the Elves(think it was elves) and Fairy info. Very interesting.

Also, THANK YOU ALL for being so warm andwelcoming and I hate that phrase because its really cheesy but I couldn't think of another way to put it. LOL

how Im explaine my last post?
We here are very ould nation (they told we live here 12000 years) and now is known we have connections to many nations beside indians too...
Mari's are very near relation of us.
sry.gram.

Shapeshifter that sounds soo right on the ball!

quote:Originally posted by hibiscuss:
I still don't believe that she has been changed. I believe a bond pre-existed or was created between Liz and Max and that's why they are so in tuned with one another. Not an alien connection but a love connection.

hibiscuss I think she DID change a bit, but she just got better at what she was already to do before? He may have just opened the key inside her . Love connection *sigh* I miss Roswell ....

Donna : sounds liek conspiracy to me too ...but then everything sounds like a conspiracy to me

Tas : OT you did an amazing job with the prov. tribute thread .

Trelaina : you sound like a minishapeshifter (thats a compliment) :. Most excelelnt post & thoughts!! You can never read enough Jung btw . Welcome

Bisty : sounds real good!!!!!!

Zara : did you see the Michael thread? You should come join us I thoguht you'd be there by now you had some excellent thoughts!

Vil ! you're back!

I really have nothing to add , just breathing in all your great ideas! *SKIPS AWAY*...

Actually, no... but I like your take on my theory better. In your definition "Zan" would have been an "inherited name", more or less as *Caesar* was. So it's still a name... but there would have certainly been more than one "Zan" in the Antarian universe (acc. to the theory). So just saying "Zan" in any reference to the Antarian ruler would be too vague (referencee could be talking about any of the "Zans").

btw, I'm actually hoping Liz is the "true bride".... I know not all of you like that idea because it endangers the "destiny vs. free will" scenario. Ultimately, it really makes no difference to me WHO Liz is exactly (just as long as she's a focal point in the story to appease the raging Liz Myth in me ). I'd be satisfied if she just ends up with Max at the end and there's a SPECIFIC reason for it beyond, "They're in love" (even though that would be a *very good* reason, of course ). With the situation the hybrids are in (and more than likely a situation that will worsen in the future)... sometimes love just isn't enough. I feel if Liz isn't crucially important in some way, I have my doubts Liz/Max will endure what inevitably would be in store for their relationship. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean, "Liz must be the true bride" (but it certainly wouldn't hurt). Hence I feel, even beyond Liz Myth, there was an underlying tone in EOTW that LIZ is solely the one who needs to change (or her change is the most vital?). Tess might not have been the major factor in this plan of F.Liz's (although she might have THOUGHT it was). Something that needs to change in Liz - that did not happen or wasn't allowed to in her last (alien?) lifetime or that other EOTW timeline - that must occur in THIS life if "destiny" is to be fulfilled? Although, I know this is nothing new considering some of the long-standing beliefs of my fellow Liz Mythers

Melodious

Redhawk – I love your animation of the wedding kiss! Thanks for that.

Bistyboo – Welcome, and your though make total sense to me (and many of us)! Many of us think Liz may be the Key to the Granolith (think Dawn on Buffy), and look forward to seeing if anything happens when she finally sees it. You are not the first to notice the “activation” of the Granolith when FLiz reaches out and touches it! So – you are not “seeing” things, just catching good clues!

Shapeshifter – I’m glad my Alfred Hitchcock reference gave you a laugh!

c. mccoy, ZimaMaxx and Grace Kel – I think we will have a wonderful Season 3 (ever the optimist I am)! I loved Season 1, and though Season 2 has had its faults, I still enjoy the show tremendously – and know that Season 3 (assuming no actors strike ) will be JK’s opportunity to shine. After listening to the commentaries – which I’ve yet to comment on, but I’ve been working on the Intro – I think some of the writing staff this year is very talented, but has not had the opportunity to work with episodes the way they may have wanted. I think Season 3 will be a great season – especially if they give any thought to some of the potential storylines WE all have developed for them!

Trelaina – Welcome - I’m always honored when someone chooses our little thread to be their launching platform into the world of cyber analysis. It’s like a book club, but we meet more often! Very interesting information about the Dupes life in the Subways! I’ve also had issues with using the “Trojan Horse” metaphor – but don’t think of it as deception. I think of it as the use of a strong vessel to hide important information – like the “key” discussion. I think the TH idea came from the idea of Liz having something within her of importance – and the fact so many horses were being seen. I like the Elf/Human description. That does seem to fit the free will/destiny choice that Max seems to be confronted with! I just wish that the pod squad would try to read the little bit of information they have to learn more of why they are here.

Huggybehr – I must say ITA! It is unfair!

Donna2001 – Welcome! And you know that makes so much sense that Harding should have named Tess Ava! I never thought about it, but …Why Mikey G calls Max both Maxwell (smart?) and Maxemillion has been discussed but never resolved. It is anyone’s guess!

Vihmakass – the energy stuff is so interesting. Having just finished up the Chakra stuff for the Intro last night (thanks Met!!), I’m totally fascinated by that!

Well – lunch is over, and time to do more yard work! I spent so much time working on the Intro yesterday, I think my husband thinks I’m nuts! Fortunately, he is tolerant!

Till Later!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

While I'm on the subject of names, does anyone has an idea of the significance of Michael calling Max both Maxwell and Maximilian at different times? I don't remember this subject ever being discussed and I just find it odd that Michael uses both names. Maybe someone can post instances where Michael called Max one name and when he called him the other.
Edited because I can't spell.

Welcome back! And I can't spell either, so don't let that stop you!

Max-anna-fofana-bananna-rama-rama-ding-dong: I think Michael was just being playfull, by calling Max variations of his name. Note his use of "Fearless Leader", from time to time.

I think Harding didn't call Tess "Ava" precisly because the other 4 were using their old names. And S1 Tess seems strange because Harding brought her up to be Max's Bride, and to believe that Max (et al.) remembered their past. Her being creepy, was a misguided attempt to jog their memories. Eventually, when Max jumped her and got hostile, Tess realized that she had to tell the story, not just hint around.

This season, she's a little schizo. On one hand, she's been trained as Max's Bride, so we get lots of "Yes, Dear". OTOH, there's this kid in there who didn't have much fun when she was little. Remember, Tess described him: "It's not like he's Ward Cleaver when he's here." So I think she's come to the point where she can kick up her heels a little. Note her reaction to the suggestion of a trip to Vegas: a squeal of joy. Harding would never have permitted this!

As for Ava, I think she's a poor little mouse, very like the original. "The smallest of small-town BEMs..."

No, she isn't talking so Tess can hear her; she's mumbling to herself. Just like we yell at the TV sometimes...

Thank you roswelldiva, GraceKel, ZimaMaxx, & Tasyfa!

quote:Originally posted by bistyboo1974:
When I watched the scene frame by frame, Future Liz's hand seems to glow a bit when she first touches the granolith. Is she making the granolith work?
I'm glad you brought this up again. When I did my most recent animation, culled from the recen M/L WB quicktime video, it was very apparent that the granolith began to glow more and more the closer FL's hand got to it. It also begins to change colors. (You can use your back and forth arrow keys to go frame by frame in quicktime videos.)

Trelaina - Welcome to the thread! Fascinating thoughts... I think you're going to fit in well here.

quote:Originally posted by Donna2001:
I agree that since Nasedo raised Tess he would have named her Ava. I'm assuming that Max, Michael, and Isabel only have new/human names because they didn't remember their previous lives and names. However, the only explanation for Nasedo (who obviously has full knowledge of the Royal 4's previous names and lives) not naming Tess Ava would have to be that she isn't really Ava aka Antar queen/bride.
Aha! Excellent point. Where have I been lately?

Okay, I haven't finished reading the thread (haven't even finished page 3 yet), but I must run now.
Here is the new animation that Tas was talking about:
Sacrifice

Here's a quote towards the beginning of the movie with some similarities in ROS (or things I'd hope were similar)...

"This it was given me to know, that many worlds (Antar and the rest of the 5 planet allegiance, maybe more) have been enslaved by the Beast (Kivar) and his army, the Slayers (Skins). And this too was given me to know, that the beast would come to our world, the world of Krull (Earth / Roswell), and his Black Fortress would be seen in the land, (Copper Summit?) that the smoke of burning villages would darken the sky, and the cries of the dying would echo through deserted valleys. ( "deserted" valleys ::wink wink:: although god forbid there's any "cries of dying" or "burning villages" in our story, yikes. Maybe in FLiz/FMax's time?) But one thing I cannot know, whether the prophecy be true, (Liz Mythers DO love that word "prophecy" ) that a girl of ancient name shall become queen, (I don't know about "ancient", but Elizabeth goes back a few years, doesn't it?) that she shall choose a king, (Max) and that together they shall rule our world, and that their son shall rule the galaxy." (King Max/Queen Liz's future child / son [?] shall be the ruler of both Antar and Earth??... big old assumption more appropriate for fanfic, I know)

Anyway, wouldn't that be a lovely scenario for ROS if it happened? I suppose I also like the above quote as a Liz Myther for the line... "and SHE shall choose a king..." Like it's Liz CHOOSING Max that saves the whole universe ::sigh::

Although I also found the comparison between ROS and KRULL intriguing because at the end it turned out to be Colwyn and Lyssa's LOVE (or the "flame of their love", LITERALLY, those who've seen the movie know what I'm talking about ...Cheese!!) that defeated "the Beast", not this sacred weapon Colwyn obtained at the beginning of the movie. This "sacred weapon, the Glaive, ironically enough, is a FIVE-bladed star.

The Glaive could possibly be comparable to the Granilith? The Granilith... also seemingly VERY powerful (and possibly sacred too)... but ultimately it might not be what's truly needed to be victorious in the Ros world... it's Max/Liz's LOVE that's the key? Grossly romantic notion, but maybe a little plausible too?

Granted, this could merely be comparing two stories which BOTH follow blatantly along Conrad's "Hero's Journey" - as most epic sorts of adventure/love stories do. Perhaps it's also my need to find ROS / Liz Myth comparisons in EVERYTHING that's effecting my better judgement. I still think it's rather interesting

The Glaive from KRULL...

Healing Circle from BALANCE

Colwyn takes the "fire of love" from Lyssa's hand, KRULL ...

Max and Liz "activating" the orb in SEXUAL HEALING (??)...

Melodious

KRULL images borrowed from this website http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4294/krull.html

BALANCE image borrowed from Crashdown.
SEXUAL HEALING images borrowed from the DDD.

how Im explaine my last post?
We here are very ould nation (they told we live here 12000 years) and now is known we have connections to many nations beside indians too...
Mari's are very near relation of us.
sry.gram.

This is very intteresting. I think that humans could be descendents of alien settlers or vice versa.

About Tess's name-well I think it was just the alias they used when they moved to Roswell. Like Harding. I would assume each new location would give them new identities.

And TPTB have NOT forgotten the Liz shooting. I read awhile back on crashdown's news section that there was to be a new book dealing with the loose ends like what happened to Liz's shooters, etc. Could be some answers in there!!

Has anyone familiar with the Rhiannon story from the Mabinogion brought that up? As far as I remember, Rhiannon (associated with Epona, a horse-goddess) fell in love with Pwyll, a mortal -- I remember this scene where he had to chase her, although she never went any faster on her horse, he never caught up until he stopped -- anyway, her child was stolen, but she got framed, and they made her pretend to be a horse for something like 20 years, until her son Pryderi (which means lost, I think?) came back and I really don't remember where I was going with this but it had to do with Liz/Rhiannon parallels, and Max doubting her, but she cannot get him to see the truth, and Trojan horses (I'm starting to get hung up on that -- just let it go, T, just let it go).

Okay, I've been doing this so long today (since 11 am, almost nonstop) that I've become really, really spacy. More so than usual. Every twenty minutes or so my boyfriend comes in and laughs at me. His Roswell thoughts extend only as far as "It's not on? That sucks." Then he just goes on to something else. We should all be so lucky.

Thanks Zero!

Melodious1 - I haven't seen Krull, but I enjoyed your theories. The quote with your side notes in particular gave me goose bumps at the end there. Yep, I'm definitely a hopeless romantic. You knew that already though, didn't ya? Plus I'm so tired now, I think I'm getting loopy.

WR - I love your fanfic. I promise to send you a PM soon, hopefully when I'm feeling a little less delirious. ...need sleep...

You should read the saga of the Pleistocene (or was it Pliocene, I can't remember, anyway, my sister's the geologist) Exile by Julian May. She re-uses this ancient Irish legend (about the Fir Bolg) to tell a story about an alien group and time-travelling humans in the distant past. It's fascinating (Ann Rice used the same myth in some of the Witching Hour books to a much lesser effect.)

quote:Originally posted by TVPooh:
About Tess's name-well I think it was just the alias they used when they moved to Roswell. Like Harding. I would assume each new location would give them new identities.

I'm so glad they picked Tess, so we can call her Trash. Or are we not allowed to here? LizMyth isn't exactly a Rebel-friendly idea....

I'm glad I finally figured out how to quote. If only I could get the smilies legend to come up....

Lovely mything! I really liked the Elven/Hybrid stuff and the idea that Sheila Hubble had been touched by an alien before--btw, that goes back to my fav fanfic in which the idea of the two warring shapeshifters is introduced (like Tic tac and Edsedo, only Tic tac was a woman) and Tictac did good things and Edsedo did dumb things. I refuse to go into the details of how completely idiotic and pointless his kidnapping Liz was--even if he did intend to kill her (I think so!) how could he not realize that Max would come after her? And, all those security tapes had Max's face on them. So, basically Edsedo put a big flashing neon sign over Max's head that said "I'm an alien, come and get me"! Yeah, way to protect the freaking king! Ok, so I lied, I went into gory details...*sigh* I know, I am a bad little myther.

Okie then...no need to reiterate my pet peeve about the whole Tess/Nicholas mindwarp thing from WO, eh? Alrighty then!

As for Michael calling Max both Maxwell and Maximillian...it will take me forever to read through the scripts but my curiosity is piqued...I know that at the end of TMA, when Michael was telling Max that things were easier for him because he had no ties, he called Max Maximillian. The rest escape me.

I know we have been over the meaning of the names before, but in the spirit of me agreeing with the idea that Tess changed names with every move...why stick with 'Tess'? If she was so hopped up on Destiny, why not tell them her name was Ava? Notice that in MTD, Tess did not seem to know what her dupe's name would be...even though Rath had already said his name and even Isabel was able to deduce that Lonnie was short for Vilandra...so was the name just another tidbit that Edsedo neglected to mention? (Like he conveniently forgot to mention the Granolith?) All his omitions just make me think that he was in no way ever intended to be their protector! (Can you tell yet that I am way hung up on that??)

Ok, back to the name issue-I asked if Phillip was Max's middle name (I had read it before, and someone said they thought when Valenti pulled them over it said it on Max's drivers liscense, and someone else said it just had the initial P., but my copy is too blurry and I can't tell) and got no firm confirmation...but if it is...well Phillip means--get this--lover of horses!! Ok, if you aren't excited by that, remember our analogy of Liz as the Trojan Horse! I'm sorry, it just called out to my dreamer heart...*sigh*...but all that means is his full name describes him as a great young warrior, and a lover of horses.

I know, I am deranged. I've got the RWT's (Roswell Withdrawal Tremors) Sorry for the long post!

Val

edited because its TMA, not TMI! *blushes*

I believe that it's more self-consistant than the official episode (no chad), and I know that the science is sound. (The Sci-Fi Of... thread has disappeared, or I'd announce it over there too.) Yes, the romance doesn't change, but IMHO it's a better story because it makes better sense.

Point is: ask me questions, and I will answer them!

RD Thanks. It took some work, but provence is worth it

Trelaina Welcome! You have some great ideas (I'll be more specific later, once I've had some time to think about them!). I don't believe anyone's brought up the story of Rhiannon/Pwyll, and I'm sure I would have noticed b/c the Mabinogion is pretty much what started my whole myth bent in life, esp. Pwyll's story! There are some parallels, but once you add in Arawn and Annwn it gets too complicated and too irrelevant to Roswell, I think BTW, I think that you & I prob. have similar reading habits judging by your post

redhawk Thanks for posting "Sacrifice."

As for Michael calling Max other names, here's my take (I know you all wanted to know! ): Maximillian only shows up in S1 (I know b/c it shocked me when I finally watched S1!), and I think it's only maybe 4 or 5 times, all early in the season (I have to check for specifics). After that, it's been strictly Maxwell. Now, how many of the guys that you have known named Michael are actually called Michael? I've known all kinds of guys called Mike, Mikey, even Mickey, but it's rare for the full name Michael to be used as our Michael does (Courtney notwithstanding!). My first instinct was that Michael called Max Maxwell b/c it evened them up in the formality department, kind of like a backwards nickname. And I think that's what it is--a nickname, a sign of affection/friendship. Aww!
~Tas

No, this makes a great deal of sense, and ties in with what I've been thinking too. The granolith could be not quite an artificial lifeform, but kind of like a sentient stone. Perhaps it was even originally infused with the essence of one of the Antarians, and that's where its sentience is from. If anyone's read Terry Brooks' "The Elfstones of Shannara," there's a special tree called the Ellcrys whose lifeforce is the key to a spell that imprisons the demons. There are special people, called the Chosen, who care for the tree. Once the tree begins to die, one of the Chosen is given a seed and must perform a ritual (not getting into details) to prepare it to become the new tree. But the seed itself isn't enough--what makes the Ellcrys so special is that this particular Chosen--who is always female BTW--becomes the tree. She gives up her life as an elf to become the Guardian against the demons.

Obviously there's no question of the granolith dying, it's made of stone or something inanimate, but the principle could be the same. Liz could be the Chosen one, to guard the Guardian. And the granolith could house the intelligence of a willing self-sacrifice, a person who gave up their bodily life to imbue the granolith with their essence.

I like this idea! Thanks, Vihmakass!
~Tas

quote:Originally posted by Tasyfa:

(I'll be more specific later, once I've had some time to think about them!).

I can't wait!

quote:Originally posted by Tasyfa:
My first instinct was that Michael called Max Maxwell b/c it evened them up in the formality department, kind of like a backwards nickname. And I think that's what it is--a nickname, a sign of affection/friendship. Aww!
~Tas

ITA -- that's just perfect.

My 12-year-old daughter just watched Wipe Out with me in preparation for the Monday Night Hiatus Campaign (see crashdown for details), and she has this theory on why Nicholas isn't shedding and survived the firebomb: quote:"Perhaps at an earlier time Nicholas had access to the Granolith and somehow used it to make his skin permanent so that it wouldn't shed. Then some enemies of the Skins moved the Granolith to another location.

I believe that it's more self-consistant than the official episode (no chad), and I know that the science is sound. (The Sci-Fi Of... thread has disappeared, or I'd announce it over there too.) Yes, the romance doesn't change, but IMHO it8's a better story because it makes better sense.

Point is: ask me questions, and I will answer them![/B]

(I gaffled this pic from Melodious's post!)

Healing Circle from BALANCE

Val

pic courtesy of crashdown.com

------------
sry.gram.

I also noticed something in EOTW. When Kyle is in Liz's room, you can see the sun mirror behind his head (while they're talking about the fact that they're not going to do anything), and there are no beads on the mirror!
~Tas

quote:Originally posted by Trelaina:
Charmedkitten -- Personally, I think Liz is the true Queen as well -- because Max chose her, and she chose him. I beleive her to be true because they are together from THEIR choices, and not the direction of destiny or another person, and that makes them true soulmates, and truly bonded(ooh I loved that whole lifebonding thing, too, btw.) So in that respect, I think we agree.

I agree with you on this. Liz is the true queen because of who she is not what she used to be(alien). Personally, I hope that she will be a hundred percent human, too. As far as Liz being changed, well Necado did say that all the podsquad's powers where just advanced human abilities. I remember hearing once that when we use our brains, we create "wrinkles" in them that are indicitive of neurogical pathways. When Einstien's brain was studied after death, they found that his brain was way more "wrinkly" than normal people, thus he had more neurogical pathways. Maybe when Max healed Liz he simply created new "pathways" that she didn't have access to.

On the subject of Tess/Ava's name........I hadn't actually thought about that before, but now that I do, it makes more sense that Necado wouldn't call Tess "Ava" because if he did, Skins and other enemies that might now about the royal four could get wind of it. This especially makes sense if the Dupes really are decoys like some have suggested. The Dupes running around with the original royal four's names would attract more attention away from the podsquad and Tess and Necado.

Melodious1- I agree that it might be Max/Liz's love that is the key. I think of it as the Fifth element that has often been discussed. If you watch the movie "The Fifth Element", the audience is told that it is the girl(don't remember her name) who is the fifth element, but I think it was really her love for the main character that was the true fifth element. She was just a kind of conduit. This isn't the only instince of love being pertrayed as the fifth element. Just think, if each of the podsquad represents each of the four elements, who does that leave for "love"? Liz, of course.
example:

Max-earth (he is solid)
Tess-fire (think WO)
Isabel-wind
Michael-water
Liz-love

this also lead right into the Liz as Venus theory.

Well, thats enough for tonight. Maybe my brain will quit running around in circles now!

RW

quote:Originally posted by Tasyfa:
I also noticed something in EOTW. When Kyle is in Liz's room, you can see the sun mirror behind his head (while they're talking about the fact that they're not going to do anything), and there are [b]no beads on the mirror!
~Tas

[/B]
Okay - why are we looking for beads??? And the mirror before was noted to be a phallic symbol (pilot only). Where's the Liz Mything on this topic?

Max-earth (he is solid)
Tess-fire (think WO)
Isabel-wind
Michael-water
Liz-love

this also lead right into the Liz as Venus theory.

RW

I think I prefer Liz to be spirit or soul, which is usually determined to be the fifth element. In the Greek myth of Cupid and Psyche, Cupid falls madly in love with Psyche from afar, and then finally gets her to love him (I think he saves her life? not sure). However, his one condition is that she can NEVER tell anyone who he really is, which has interesting Max/Liz ramifications. However, since Cupid was actually afraid of Venus finding out, this takes away from the Liz/Venus theory, which I have a real love-hate relationship with. (Okay, so I have a love-hate thing with Venus/Aphrodite (and the Ancient Greek culture and pantheon) anyway, so that's probably bleeding into it.)

And, of course Psyche means soul, anima, as far as the Greek mythos had developed that concept -- cf. Julian Jaynes' Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, or of course , my fave, David Ulansey's The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World. (Okay, so that didn't fit as much -- I just had to plug the Ulansey book because I absolutely love it.) But when I saw Ulansey speak, he discussed the orign of the idea of psyche, or consciousness, and interestingly enough, he made a parallel with a possible current transformation with the Internet and the concept of cyberspace.

I do prefer Tess as Wind for her changeableness; with Izzy as Water -- someone had mentioned water as the subconscious, the dreamworld, and I loved that; and Michael as Fire; and, as you said, Max as earth.

A thought -- Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition -- wasn't Adam created by breathing spirit into earth? It's been so long since I read Genesis, but the point is that the creation of humanity was from the combination of Earth and Spirit -- so maybe, Liz and Max as new Adam and Eve? Creating a new Eden for the five planets and earth?

I think I'll try to read up on Zoroastrianism for the MichaelMyth board -- if Mikey G is fire, that might be interesting.

[b]Trelaina - Welcome to the thread! Fascinating thoughts... I think you're going to fit in well here.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Hey RBI's and a warm and hearty welcome to the Newbies!

A couple of things to add...about the Granolith lighting up...if you think about the 'Balance' again (my favorite theory these days) Riverdog said:

RIVER DOG: Nasedo gave me these stones. They're from his place. And they carry an energy inside them.

MAX: You mean, these are from...

RIVER DOG: Wherever you are from. He said that his body carried the same energy that's in these stones. He called it the balance. He said that the heat from the sweat disrupted it in some way.

MAX: How?

RIVER DOG: He told me to hold the stones until my energy activated them. And the balance would be restored

So, my take on why the Granolith lit up is that if you think about it as this huge energy source, that carries the balance within it...Human (and alien) energy would activate it...hence it lighting up when Liz and FM touched it. I would like to think that Liz is the key to the Granolith, but since we're not really sure what it is yet...this explanation makes sense. I'm all about the energy these days!!!

Trelaina I loved your post. You are going to fit in really well here. Loved the comments about Robert Moses -- when I was in High School we used to drive down the Robert Moses Causeway along the beach til we got to the end. Then we would get out sneak down to the beach...and well, do things we probably should not have been doing. It always amused me how the causeway would just end... And, yes, the subway platforms might be heated but I doubt the tunnels are. In fact, I'm seriously doubting that the platforms are but then again, I'm a disgruntled NY commuter!!!

Anyhow, I have to finish reading the threads, but I'm LOVING the speculations!

Smiles,
{~}:}

I just finished reading the thread, and I have some comments (surprise, surprise).

I've been thinking about Nasedo recently, and also about the other 'protector' who we have yet to meet.

The striking difference between the two is that one (the NY protector) seemed to have given his/her/its charges TONS of information about who they were at home. Nasedo has given our podsters next to nothing. Just enough information so that he can get his 'job' accomlished. One line from Destiny has always stuck out in my head...

NASEDO: It's not my job to show you. My only job is to keep you alive.

Now, we know that there were four glowies originally. Two died in the crash. I've been pondering the possiblity that these glowies all had different jobs to do here on Earth in regards to the podsters.

This is why I've come to the conclusion that Nasedo's 'job' was to protect. The other 'protector's' job wasn't really to protect, but to teach. When the crash happened, the other two were left to do all the jobs. Nasedo seemed like a good soldier. He was given a mission back on Antar. To protect them. Hence the lack of information given to the podsters.

OK, this theory might not be 100% accurate, but it has ALWAYS bothered me that Nasedo gave them NO information about themselves, and the NY crew seemed to know so much more. I honestly believe though, that everyone sent down to Earth had a certain role. There was a plan, and the crash mucked that up so they had to make do with what was left.

Anyhow, there is more to this theory then I am writing right now, but since it's late and I'm tired, I'll leave it for another day.

But the main thing is that the two surviving protectors had different roles. Nasedo was a true protector -- his job is to keep them alive... but I'm not so sure about the other one. My gut instinct is telling me that this protector is the one with the answers..the one with all the Chads.

Anyhow...that's it for now!

Agent Met signing off....

{~}:}

On the subject of Tess' name: This is not very nice, but I assume that the real Ed Harding and Tess Harding were silverhandprint victims.

Originally posted by Tasyfa:
I also noticed something in EOTW. When Kyle is in Liz's room, you can see the sun mirror behind his head (while they're talking about the fact that they're not going to do anything), and there are no beads on the mirror!

Okay - why are we looking for beads??? And the mirror before was noted to be a phallic symbol (pilot only). Where's the Liz Mything on this topic?

Not the standing mirror, the small one on the wall near the door to the hallway that looks like a carved sun. There have been rosary-type beads hanging on it in a V shape from Missing onwards; they have something to do with Evid's theory of Liz as the Virgin Mary/bride figure. I just thought that it was interesting that they were no longer there in the ep in which Liz pretended to lose her virginity.

Vihmakass Do you mean that the granolith has kind of possessed Max, and that's why he's so drawn to Liz, b/c the granolith wants her?
~Tas

------------
Nop!
It just giving him "adress" his soulmate...
btw.this are ounly some thougths about possibilitis..

So it's playing matchmaker, pointing him at Liz b/c she is his perfect match I could go for that!
~Tas

Yep!
Im assume gran. pointing possibilitis but choises must do somebody else (Max, Liz..?)
This is why it need somekind master or user but bc this choises are so determinative this user is very of especial importanse.
Maybe in past Max was made thous bad decisions and was killed.
sry.gram.

Metaphysicalgrl, re. Nasedo's 'job', he certainly knew enough to fill Tess' head with all that 'Max is your destined mate' junk, that has been causing problems between our soulmates!

Also, on the 'energy' issue, I watched Blind Date this morning. When Max kisses Liz on stage is the first time we see the pod chamber (location of the granilith) with the 5 star constellation above. I wonder if this is the moment, with Max 'off balance' (i.e. drunk!), when he is not in control of his energy source that he transfers some alien energy/essence? to Liz. After all, this is the first time she had flashes since the reverse connection. Then things intensify in Sexual Healing with Liz's reference to chemical changes in her body.

Actually, it is my opinion that Nasedo gave them just enough information so that he would be able to get his job done. Think about it....He never told them too much - just enough to get them to do what he needed them to do. You gotta think he would've had to explain SOMETHING to Tess after all those years and the run-in's with the special unit of the FBI.

Anyhow, you all don't have to agree with me, but I have a feeling we'll be meeting up with the other protector sooner or later, and this one will have tons of information to share.

{~}:}

quote:
Although I also found the comparison between ROS and KRULL intriguing because at the end it turned out to be Colwyn and Lyssa's LOVE (or the "flame of their love", LITERALLY, those who've seen the movie know what I'm talking about ...Cheese!!) that defeated "the Beast", not this sacred weapon Colwyn obtained at the beginning of the movie. This "sacred weapon, the Glaive, ironically enough, is a FIVE-bladed star.

Thats almost apocalyptic. Jesus and the Virgin Mary's essence come back teamed up to kick ass . LOL sowwy I don't know if I can say that in here . Joking aside it does make a lot of sense. Thats really the only thing that can defeat any evil. Maybe they're was strong enough to endure practically anything (but I'm thinking I they over did it a bit ). I don't wanna get to cheesy eithr so I'll quit while I'm ahead...

quote:Originally posted by RW:
As far as Liz being changed, well Necado did say that all the podsquad's powers where just advanced human abilities.

Yes. I don't remember who said that well the skins had different powers? Well not really. The skins where also using a hybrid of human bodies. Go figure what other powers might have been repressed due to having to be stuck in a human form.

quote:I remember hearing once that when we use our brains, we create "wrinkles" in them that are indicitive of neurogical pathways. When Einstien's brain was studied after death, they found that his brain was way more "wrinkly" than normal people, thus he had more neurogical pathways.

Thats absolutely right. In fact they just prooved this and found evidence that the more "memory" aka "brian stimulation" (from learning etc.) the more pathways are opened up. These "streams" are what get closed up when people have oldtimers ( however you spell it ) and the more pathways people developed the longer they last before dieing form it (makes sense if you think about it. Obviously if you have more memory you have more to get taken away--last longer). So perhaps the more you learn the more pathways open up and the more powers you should be able to tap into? Doesn't make I know a lot of stupid people that have wasteful powers .

quote:
Max-earth (he is solid)
Tess-fire (think WO)
Isabel-wind
Michael-water
Liz-love

Ohh me liketh a lot as well.

Tas : you're very welcome you really did do an incredible job.

The whole elements theory has always been one of my favorites! I also agree that Michael would be fire. Fire is usually associated with the color red and the planet Mars--which coincides nicely with Michael being the warrior. Besides, fire is volatile and we all know that Michael has a volatile personality.

It's also really interesting that water symbolizes subconcious/dreamworld--how perfect for Isabel!

As for the fifth element, I have read so many different articles where it symbolizes various things. Most commonly it means love, life, or spirit. These are all qualities that Liz could easily represent. Plato also believed that the fifth element was knowledge, which definitely ties in with Liz as well. The strangest meaning I have seen, though quite often, is "aether". I looked it up and it means "the poetic personification of the clear upper air breathed by the Olympians". Make what you want of that definition, however, another definition also says that aether is supposed "to be the medium of transmission of light and heat". I found this interesting and especially relevant to the recent discussion of how the granolith lights up more when Liz touches it.

With this very long month of no Roswell I've been thinking of the Venus connection along with religious ties. What I found connects not only Liz but also Max and Tess.

As you read what I've posted below keep in mind the advise Liz gave Max on ARCC.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LIZ: As beautiful as that is, Max...you can't keep doing it. I know it seems like there's no reason for those kids to have cancer or for a father to get killed saving his child or for any of it...but maybe there is. Maybe there is someone or something out there that's planning all of this, and maybe you have to respect it. You're not God, Max. You're the one that told me that. Will you come to midnight service?

Max: I want to, but I don't believe in God.

Now also keep in mind Tess bosting Max, not giving him advise as Liz did but feeding his ego.

TESS: This is where you belong, Max...up here with the world at your feet. Like a king.

MAX: I'm the king of the world.

TESS: Yes, you are...just...not of this one.

Venus figures prominently in the religious mythologies of the Old World and the New World. We have only to look to the Bible to find them in both Old and New Testaments.
The following Biblical passage from Isaiah 14:12-15 is a paraphrase of a Canaanite scripture of the 7th century BC It was originally a funeral hymn, to Venus, as it changes its phase from morning star to evening star:
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou has said in thine heart, I will ascend to heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down ....”

Venus rising before the Sun is the “Son of Morning,” the bright herald of dawn, the Angel of the Morning, or the Angel of the Lord (the Sun). Lucifer, meaning light-bringer, is the Latin name for the morning star phase of Venus. (Liz)

It is also called Phosphor, and as the evening star, Hesper. In its evening star phase it follows the “Lord,” to his nightly grave beyond the Western Sea, the horizon, and is lamented as the Fallen Angel.(Tess)

Imagine the planet Venus at its greatest distance from the Sun (48 degrees), at its highest declination (26 or more degrees north), rising before dawn, near the summer solstice. It would look as though Venus was heading toward the pole star (‘the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north’), elevating itself far above its Lord. Hence, it became a metaphor for great pride (the only sin a human could commit in the eyes of the Greek gods in later times). Pride, ego as the sense of having a separate existence apart from the Source and equal if not superior to it, is, according to Christian mythology, the thing that got Lucifer in trouble with God and caused the “war in heaven.”(Max telling Liz I don't believe in God comes to mind)
Lucifer became associated with the idea of Satan (Saturn), the force of darkness, ignorance, Maya (illusion/delusion, Tess's powers), which turns us away from the true light of spirit and toward identification with the material plane. (Max saying he is the King of the world)

From the perspective of planet earth, Venus appears to rise before the Sun as morning star; actually its orbital position at that time is behind the Sun. This, too, is a metaphor; things are not as they appear to be.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My take on this is that Max can choose Liz (morning star) who is the true light of spirit, or Tess (evening star) who will turn him away from the true light of the spirit and towards the material plane.
We also learn that Venus as the morning star changes it's location in the sky and is often hidden, Liz anyone?
At this point in the season Max seems to be confused about his choices. He did go to evening services so that was a plus. But with Tess around, feeding his ego, I'm still uneasy with what choice he will make next. In the end he will choose Liz, I'm just hating how long it's taking him to get there.

Evid

I do agree with you Metaphysical. I don't know if my theories hold any water in here (y'all are delving into some stuff that's beyond my comprehension unfortunately All this Grecian Myth, advanced Astrology discussing... geez! Y'all amaze me). However, I FEEL if the podsters can be "programmed" (as Nasedo stated in the WHITE ROOM), then Nasedo himself could more than likely be a programmed/engineered being as well (and, of course, not at all human). He might have some knowledge of the "past life", but more than likely is only programmed with JUST ENOUGH information to perform PARTICULAR and BASE functions. I.E., make sure Tess is with Max, and Michael is with Isabel, eventually help them develop their powers (these are Nasedo specific functions?)... Keep them alive (the base function of all the protectors).

I feel, since "balance" seems to hold such a big role in ROS, that perhaps another SSer (one of the two glowing aliens we saw in Sof47?)... ALSO had "base" functions, but also had INDIVIDUAL functions? The other protector/SSer/alien we saw alive in Sof47 maybe held the role of "teaching" the podsters their history and what they're to do on Earth? However, ONLY what the Antarians WANTED THEM to know? Hence the reasons why the podsters basically have no memories of their past lives (they were to be "taught" by this other SSer?) ... aside from what Nasedo has taught Tess to recall. Unless of course he was feeding Tess fraudulent/wrong information based on his own biased programming?

Nasedo CAN'T inform them of what they REALLY are/were because he doesn't have that information stored in his particular "database" or he's programmed only to tell them SO MUCH information? As not to endanger the "alien plan" in some way?

Melodious

Balkyre about Tess not calling herself Ava, I think I'll have to agree with RW on that one. The dupes would have been a decoy and like Nicholas said they were hidden away in Roswell. No need to draw unwanted attention. Enough of that going around anyway.

Metaphysicalgrl I think this would carry me to your point about Nasedo and the lack of information he gave them. I still don't understand that. He had Tess for years but I would have thought she would have had alot more information that she seems to. The Dupes are a whole lot more informed. They were four aliens, two I suppose for each set of podsters, I think that Nasedo was meant to be with the Dupes.

As for the granolith, all I can say is thank God it didn't go to the dupes, obviously they would have given it back a long time ago. Of course if it wasn't for Liz I have to wonder if Max wouldn't have given it up as well.

I'm also wondering about this whole thing where Zan "seemed" as though he was looking of someone else.:idead: Could there have been a dupe Liz out there? I'm sorry we never got to see those two meet. I think itwould have been very interesting.

Well sorry if I've posted something someone else had and I hope it's not too long.

Evid - really interesting post!!! I am going to read it again slowly when my kids are not clamoring for attention.

I have new screencaps - I am going to post seperately because this is getting long.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I think Starbox you bring out a new archetype for Liz. Liz is the warrior, the conquerer! Liz is the only human that can disintegrate alien skins (not including myself - those skins are pretty brittle). She is also a target for the blurry eye aliens in WipeOut... Liz as the warrior?? Would the dragon symbolism support that?

Laurie has seen these pictures before.

Leads to, question? How did she know that Michael, Isabel, and Max were aliens in DB? Granted, she saw Michael and recognized him as her grandfather, but her own family assumed he was an illegimate member of the Duprees. Why did Laurie leap to the assumption that Max, Isabel, and Michael were aliens?? What happened behind the scenes that would assist her into making this correct connection?????

And Laurie was hiding from the crystals/gradarium... They look nothing like these pictures here.

We know that the granolith can be used for time travel and we know that it could somehow be of great help to the skins.

Starting with the time travel aspect of things. Max mentioned that the granolith artificially created a tear in space-time, which would theoretically require a huge amount of energy. Therefore the granolith has to be some kind of energy source. However, the granolith can't just make energy out of thin air so that's where the crystal that Max used to activate the granolith comes in.
Crystal power was first used by the people of Atlantis thousands of years ago.
"The Atlanteans used the knowledge of the crystal refraction, amplification and storage. It is known that a beam of light (We know the granolith lit up in Max's time travel process.) directed intensely and focused specifically on a gem will, when it exits from the reflective plane of the gem, be amplified. These amplified energies were broken down into a wide and sophisticated spectrum. Extracting other things from the same basic substance, they used certain divisions of the energy for growing things. Others for healing, others for knowledge or increasement of substance. Other phases of spectrum for disassembling molecular structures, and yet other combinations of these strata for building, assembling structures, as in chains; or producing matter, transmutation of matter and that sort. Their basic technology is still available in the earth plane in various locations."
However, the Atlanteans also believed that a higher being granted them the ability to use the crystal's power. To appease the being, man "cannot have hate, hostility, and anxiety within his being. He must replace this with love ( Max & Liz anyone?), tranquillity, compassion and patience."
Even more, Atlanteans were able to use crystals' ability to "transfer energy, to retain it, to maintain its intensity, to focus and transmit it over great distance to similar receivers as are equal or comparable to the transmitter. Thus, from one pyramid (Does the granolith serve as this pyramid to utilize and transmit the crystals' power from earth?) to another the Atlanteans, in a sense, transmitted energy."
"By utilization of other currents originating form the Crystal, the Atlanteans were also able to transmit over great distances the human voice, the pictures, like modern television." Mom'o'gram anyone?
"As technology advanced in Atlantis, the energies of the Crystal were put to a wider variety of material uses. Cayce spoke of the Crystal's force acting upon certain 'instruments' which in turn operated 'various modes of travel at speeds undreamed of by our culture today.'" Maybe this is why the skins are so desparate to find the granolith: to travel back to their planet before their skins disinegrate. I also find the reference to Edgar Cayce very interesting since he's been discussed here before.

To sum up my very very long post (sorry about that ), I believe that the granilith is a device to harvest crystal power. Atlanteans used "pyramids" to utilize the power of crystals to heal, send and transmit message, and travel across space. Crystal power as the people of Atlantis used it would also be more than powerful enough to provide energy for time travel.

Sorry if my theory's been discussed before. But if it was, at least I know I'm thinking along the same lines as you all.

Not a new power - a primitive version of her regular power: the ability to give illusions. Making Isabel see and hear an FBI man carry Tess off (WR) is a big illusion. Making a roomful of people not see or hear Max (original S&B) is a big illusion. Making someone feel the need to use the toilet is a small illusion. Tess might have done this as a child, as a prank, while learning her abilities. Remember, she got defensive, and said she'd grown out of it.

Also - there are TWO ships. I am a big proponent of the "two ship" theory. Perhaps this indicates that the Antaraians always travelled in sets of two? One ship would be sufficiebt to harvest DNA.

And - finally - my theory (that I know Reggie disagrees with) is that the glowies were NOT shapeshifters. The "DNA Harvest" aliens look
like the glowies. So - if they are shapeshifters - why not shapeshift so as not to scare the abductees???? Why would Nasedo be afraid to reveal his "natural form" to anyone - including other aliens - if he was just a glowie and the glowies have no problem showing themselves to abductees??

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

StarBox Great theories. Just had one quick comment, I think I see 3 ships in that picture. Now, it might just be me as I recently gave up coffee...but I think there's 3. Anyone?

{~}:}

Very grinchy-looking aliens!

I like the Atlantean research, I had no idea all that was out there.

I can see both sides on the glowies. I thought maybe if they were shapeshifters they maybe were too new to the earth environment to choose an appropriate appearance, or maybe from the shock of the crash they were off balance.

If they were skins (before donning their skins) were they merely trying to reclaim the pods to return them to Antar?

JLinderhof

Roswell 1: http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/006233.html

WB: http://talk.thewb.com/read.php?f=1&i=70079&t=70079

Quote by Donna2001:
While I'm on the subject of names, does anyone has an idea of the significance of Michael calling Max both Maxwell and Maximilian at different times? I don't remember this subject ever being discussed and I just find it odd that Michael uses both names. Maybe someone can post instances where Michael called Max one name and when he called him the other.

I don’t think Max was named either Maxwell or Maximillian. The writer’s use Maxwell now more. But Michael usually calls him by these longer versions of his name when they are either“bonding” as friends, as opposed to arguing in which he calls him “Max.” or as Tas says “Michael called Max Maxwell b/c it evened them up in the formality department, kind of like a backwards nickname.”
This leads me to the following tidbit:

People generally view those with names that have one syllable as leaders. Have you noticed that Liz and Max are the leaders? Max was also “Zan” in his previous life. I know “Tess” has one syllable, but due to the fact that her name has an “s” sound at the end, that tends to elongate the name (also she was Ava in her previous life) Names you can say directly exude strength.

[b]Quote by peej:
I noticed something and was wondering if anyone knows. In eotw when Liz and fmax are watching max and tess and Liz is saying all that stuff like show him the book to tess, is Liz actually saying that to her? Its seems like it cause if she is you would think that Tess knows about fmax (been able to hear them talking). and another thing in wipeout when max goes upstairs and is in the room with Liz he gets those flashes he sees one from Liz perspective, can anyone confirm that. I wonder if he got any feelings from Liz during that?

Interesting! I never thought about the flash Max got was from Liz perspective, although Liz is the one that looks at the bed first (which incites the flash). On Liz talking to Tess, I think she is mentally coaching her. I don’t think Tess can hear her.

I think that the Granolith lights up when Max and Liz hands get close to eachother, i.e. Tasyfa’s Forging of a lifebond theory! Take a look:

The 5th person is Liz but she entered the circle later. That is a great point that there are 5 healing stones. Why would there be 5 if there is a Royal 4? I think Liz was needed to help heal Nasedo.

Neuro-pathways and development: I have to say it is so true that as you learn you develop neuro-pathways. If these neuro-pathways are damaged in some way, you can lose memories and in serious cases lose motor function. My brother, Kent, had a bad fever when he was a child which “burned” his neuro-pathways and he lost his equilibrium (balance!) and had a hard time continuing his development (actually “Rainman” reminds me of him). My parents worked with him for 6 years teaching him basic functions (he had to relearn how to crawl even though he could walk because learning that creates neuro-pathways) and he went from an IQ of 65 to 165! So, if when Max healed Liz and didn’t the reverse connection he created more neuro-pathways, her IQ (which is linked to your neuro-pathway development) may have shot up from 150 (assuming she had this high an IQ to be the top of her class) to 200 (super genius level). Of course, TPTB haven’t shown her to be THAT smart, but they can!

Evid—I like your biblical based theories on Max’s choice. I know he’ll choose Liz.

Look closely at the picture. There is one on the bottom, a bigger one in the middle, and a small one at the top (in the background).

Do you see it?

{~}:}

It was on the Learning Channel or the Discovery Channel, and the show was called "The Aliens Have Landed." In the show they hypnotised a woman who thought the idea of aliens was ludicrous, she absolutely just did not believe in them. Through hypnosis, the hypnotist was able to plant memories of being abducted in the woman's head. When he was done, the woman believed she had been abducted and could remember it in very specific detail. Her memories were just a fantasy created by the hypnotist, but she believed it was real.

Now, could the Antarians have used this to program Nasedo? Or better yet, did Nasedo use this to program Tess? Or even scarier still, does Tess have this power? There has been much discussion of how the Tess-o-visions differ with reality. Thinking about her comment in the silverhandprint interviews that "she could do what she was doing before without him (Nasedo)", it seems that maybe Tess and Nasedo had a plan. If Tess can plant memories and make them seem real, she could have manipulate the podsters anyway she and Nasedo wanted. Anyway, just my thoughts. I'm with everyone who thinks Nasedo wasn't what he seemed to be.

A psychologist in the show said something interesting, "The most dangerous people are those who believe a fantasy is real, not those who know it is a fantasy." Tess anyone?

Edited for lack of manners--
Thank you Zero for the new thread! I am looking forward to the updated intro
Thank you Starbox for the great picture gallery! And we did get settled in quickly, thanks for asking

Edited yet again to tell Metaphysicalgirl that I see 3 ships too. Giving up coffee?!? Are you a glutton for punishment?

MoonMaiden - I LOVE this quote!
"The most dangerous people are those who believe a fantasy is real, not those who know it is a fantasy." Tess anyone?
And - Yes - Tess indeed!

**StarBox**
mythologist. dreamer

JLinderhof

MoonMaiden - I LOVE this quote!
"The most dangerous people are those who believe a fantasy is real, not those who know it is a fantasy." Tess anyone?
And - Yes - Tess indeed!

**StarBox**
mythologist. dreamer

So if we go by this, then would it be safe to assume that the Antarians were making visits at least 11 or 12 years before the crash? Does anyone know when Grandma Claudia was born?

First - Welcome all newbies!!

Met - You haven't been reading the Timeline in the Intro (at least I think I have it in this intro??)! lol: I have Grandpa Dupree as born in 1918 - but c. mccoy is right is could be off a year. The Crashdown Timeline has Grandma Claudia born in 1933. I don't know the reliability of that though.

Great info you all!! I've finished up-dating the Intro (I'm officially a nut-case now according to my husband! ) - but I can tell I may have to add a few things before I post it on Thread #35.

StarBox - You took the thoughts right out of my mind concerning the pictures! So interesting!!

The ships could be 3 space ships OR a single picture of a progression in time (one ship taking off). I've always like the multiple ship idea, too! So - interesting.

Well - I've spent too much time reading to catch up - amazing how much discussion we all have even when nothing has offically aired!

Till Later -
Zero
I Shall Believe!

Someone (??) asked about Where silver mining in Arizona took place? Well I happen to have some firsthand knowledge of this passed down through the generations. My grandmother (bless her soul!) grew up as the previlaged daughter of a man who ran a silvermine in Arizona. And you will never guess the name of the town - Globe, Arizona! How is that for a perfect town to hide a space ship in?? or to have a connection to Roswell? Now, she never mentioned spaceships, but my Great-Grandmother (her mom) could read tea leaves!

Okay - goes to show you never know where your Roswell info is going to come from!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Flaming dragons often guard caverns, to prevent their desecration by the greedy and to offer their treasure to those who are worthy. The dragon brings vitality, enthusiasm, and courage, and increased ability to overcome obstacles and to find the energy needed to cope with life’s problems. Having the powerful fire dragon as an ally will align you with the qualities of leadership and mastery. With care,he will fuel your inner fire, which can be directed and channeled with laser-like precision to help you accomplished tasks and achieve objectives.

Finally got the Crashdown poster picture to work - thanks for that StarBox!

Okay - I keep thinking of something I want to post about, then I get time to get on-line and I forget! I need to write it down next time I think about it. Oh well - love all the myth, etc. stuff recently!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I also did some more research on the Atlantis crystal power theory. A lot of the psychics that told of Atlantean civilization also said they had a "Great Crystal". This Crystal "was housed in a special building oval in shape, with a dome that could be rolled back, exposing the Crystal to the light of the sun, moon and stars at the most favorable time".

In this image it looks like the granolith is housed in a oval-like room and you can kind of see that there is an opening over the granolith.

The Crystal's room was also "lined with non-conducting metal or stone, similar to asbestos or bakelite, a thermosetting plastic." Again, if you look at the picture, it looks like the room is insulated with some special material.

"The Crystal itself was huge in size, cylindrical in length, and prismatic in shape, cut with six sides." This doesn't describe the granolith exactly since it's an inverted cone, but it could be used as a basic idea for the granolith's shape. Besides, maybe the Atlanteans copyrighted their design.

The Great Crystal was also responsible for Atlantis' destruction since it fell into the wrong hands. "Those greedier for more power, and of less spiritual fortitude, tuned the energies of the Crystal to higher and more destructive frequencies." Was this the fate that Future Max warned Liz about if the granolith fell into the wrong hands?

Tell me what you guys think--I know that we all want to know the secrets of the granolith and you have to admit that my crystal power theory has a lot of evidence from what we've seen on Roswell to support it!

Have a good night and keep the great thoughts coming!

These are just things that bugged me during the episode. I may just be getting excited over nothing again, but...

-Liz wasn't wearing an apron, but Maria was. Any takers on significance of this?

-When the Skins get off the bus, Nicholas says "let's go find some aliens". Now, why did he use the word "aliens"? It may be nothing, but it's really bugging me. Because the Pod Squad doesn't say "aliens, they say Skins". So why didn't Nicholas say "Antarians" or "Twilonians"?

-I couldn't tell, but it seems to me that the poles they were tied to in the end weren't there before the Ros4 were tied to them. I mean, it just seems like something very strange to have in front of the doors inside a school.

-Tess, is, as usual, really bothering me. They were little things, but nonetheless. She was much more take charge in this episode than in previous episodes. For instance, when she was questioning Courtney, well, I got creepy chills. It was just too strange. Then, when Nicholas appears at the school with the Skins, Tess has this look on her face like Nicholas betrayed her. And this may not mean anything, but when Nicholas was finished mindraping Max, the only person he didn't take a jab at was Tess. Plus, I'm not even going to attempt to touch her fireburst power at the moment. Suffice to say that, after this week's episode, I really don't trust Tess.

Someone (I forget who) brought up a theory a while back about a possible reason why everything seems so disjointed right now. Something about different time dimensions. I can't really remember it enough to quote it, but after rewatching Wipeout, it seems an interesting theory to consider.

Relurking now until the next time I watch Roswell.

Before we start counting spaceships (oops, too late for that! ), speaking as a former freelance artist who filled dozens of sketch books, this could be three views of one ship.

Thing two:
Reading your posts (above ^) about the Granolith Crystal, and having recently rewatched Balance, I am thinking about the power of the healing crystals and their similarity to the Granolith's crystal base. Also, FM uses a crystal to activate it in TEOTW, and then we have the Gandarium crystals. SO, maybe the Granolith was manufactured to work with the crystal that powers it. And just as the healing crystals required peoples' energy to be active, and the Gandarium were picky about the people they interacted with, maybe the Granolith's crystal needs certain energy to activate it. ... Okay, I'm admittedly rambling. Does someone want to add on to this?

And since it's another Roswell-less Monday, I thought we needed to see Redhawks' clip once more. sigh
quote:Originally posted by redhawk:

Someone (I forget who) brought up a theory a while back about a possible reason why everything seems so disjointed right now. Something about different time dimensions. I can't really remember it enough to quote it, but after rewatching Wipeout, it seems an interesting theory to consider.

Man I wish I had taped the episodes . Audrey you should check out the Signs & Simbols thread, we went into serious time dimension parallel theory discussion there. Someone I think Joku or someone brought up the idea that everything shifted back into position and its natural course when Max touched the taxi door in VLV (Liz's stagecoach as a symbol and the might have been the taxi they took after they had gotten married) so that vision he got may have been his thrid eye seeing the parallel universe thought that would have been taking place then now sort of his first ESP episode? I solely believe this is whats going on too. Anyhows if you wanna know more they had some great thoughts there.

peej : great ad on!

Re: Three space ships? Maybe also they are the three different shapes of the shapeships that have come to earth. You know like those old kleenex tissue boxes that had all the old vehicles models on them ? Remember that "they are not alone"...

Is it just me or does anyone else have a headache right now from trying to read what Grandpa D wrote in the spiral on his journal ??

I finally have time to comment on the commentary from the Season 2 shows! It is very fun to listen to them - especially when they have comments relevant to Liz!

First I want to start off with Liz's comments in the recent interviews! We have often spoken about the "connection" between Liz and Max - I have a huge section about it in the Intro! So, it is noteworthy to include her answer to "What keeps drawing you back to Max?" Liz - "the fact that we do have this real connection, and there is this fire and this energy between us. You don't really want to give up on something until its reached its full potential, and I don't think Max and I have, yet!" Okay - We are not imagining these things! (Keep repeating that to yourself!)

In Skin & Bones - JK states that his FAVORITE scene is when Max sees Liz for the 1st time! He goes on about the connection between them. Interesting!

In Ask Not - RM comments that his goal was to make Tess a legitimate player in Max's life. He acknowledges that the characters and most of the audience disliked (hated!) her. So - he was acknowledging that what we felt about Tess from the end of Season 1 was known by TPTB, and that he was making a conscious effort to change how we felt about her - though making someone a legitimate player, does not necessarily make them someone you will like. BUT I find in interesting that there was a conscious effort in the beginning of Season 2 to make us accept Tess. RM talks about Max feeling guilty, and bringing Tess into the fold of the group, and how she had her own problems. The most telling comment though his one of his last - That the Max/Liz relationship is so strong and so CENTRAL to the ENTIRE SERIES! Okay - I'm not making this up - this is out of the Horses mouth! So, Dreamers or just Max/Liz lovers - whatever - there it is in one of the prime PTB's own words!

Surprise was Colin talking about his striptease, and Summer of '47 was the writers talking about bringing the episode to the screne - and the parallels they wanted to get across. No specifics, but they did mention that they looked on the boards (!) to see if the fans were 'getting it.' They actually were very cute - and I was more impressed after the few interviews I heard them give.

TEOTW - JK and JB both go on a bit, but mostly discuss the choices and consequences of those choices being the prime moving factor there. Also, they make a comment that disturbed me (though not tremendously) about Liz - "the future she will NEVER have." Maybe she will never have that PARTICULAR future - but I did not take it to mean that Max and Liz had no hope of a future together. This is probably my favorite episode this season - though it is heartbreaking - because it was so well written - and did not rule out hope completely.

Harvest, Wipeout, Meet the Dupe and Max in the City all had nothing of particular interest to this thread.

A Roswell Christmas Carol - JK and JB again went on and on and here is the quote (not exact): "thanking (Liz) for being a friend - an evolution of Max as a charater and his relationship to his family and LIZ. ... w/o (Liz) (Max) couldn't become the person (he) is now .. Thank you for opening Max's eyes to a different world ... able to go to her even with everything that has gone on between them. Liz is the sane voice ... some sort of reasoning person he trusts the most is Liz. The perso who knows hime best (is Liz). .. It is about being human; being mature; being alive." Okay - this entire episode - written by JK - plays directly into our theories of change and growth that both Liz and Max seem to need to go through - the entire Hero's Journey stuff!

To Serve and Protect - nothing really except that writers can use names of anyone they want - like friends.

We Are Family - this is SA commenting on Sean's appearance in the show, and how we should all love him because he is the best thing that has happened to her character this season (which considering everything that Liz has gone through this Season isn't saying much!). So - here is what Shiri says: "I think it is about time Liz Parker experiences something else because how else is she supposed to know what else is out there in the world. I think that spending so much time with Max and all of that chaos has robbed her of some of her childhood, and Sean sort of brings that playfulness back into her life, and you see her smile and giggle and enjoy herself again even if it is in an indirect sort of way at least she is not caught up in a world that is tainted by unrealistic things. It's kind of sweet because it's nice that she is attracted to someone who is so opposite to Max ... everytime a person gets into a different relationship, a different side of their personality comes out - a stronger Liz Parker is coming out. More confident. I think that 'they' [who is they?] sort of let go of the whole Max thing. Think about Liz's goals in life, and what she needs, and they'll love Sean Delucca because he's great and we love him here!" (typed fast!) Okay - I thought this was interesting to get into Shiri's head about her character. The whole "let go of the whole Max thing" I'm not sure I understand - but I found this very telling considering the later "Liz interview" above.

Disturbing Behavior and How the Other Half Lives didn't have much.

Viva Las Vegas - GB and AH mention that this was supposed to be a Liz/Tess episode where they would switch bodies like in "Freaky Friday" - I'm SOOO glad they didn't go there - Buffy already did this, and I think it would have been too similar in some ways. So, it ended up an episode about "friendship and bonding." Supposedly, Liz and Tess were supposed to bond, but I saw none of that. But I did agree with the comment that the "audience liked to see the group act as friends!" I totally agree! Less animousity next Season, and more Scooby Gang cooperation against the evil forces!!

Okay - that is it, but I thought that some of what was said confirms much of what we believe!

Zero
I Shall Believe! "love"

Does anyone else think it is crazy-wierd that Grampa Dupree's handwriting looks nothing like Michael's? It would make absolute sense if it did (they look exactly alike, they have the same "nervous" habits, etc.). They are from the same genetic material. Heck, even I write similarly to my mom and my sister. The writing in the journal (GD) and the writing from the class assignment (MG) is completely different. Significant clue or just another stinkin' CHAD? Just thought I would put that out there.

So, it's clear from RM's comments about Tess, that they've decided to go in a different direction with her character. No chance of evil Tess rearing her ugly head. Never mind, some of us have long memories

I was thinking about the red giant that Liz saw in SH and the one referred to at the beginning of MTD. Does anyone else think that these may have been the power source used to travel from Antar to Earth? The reason I ask this is because, I was watching Star Trek Voyager, and they talked about using the magnetic pulse generated by an exploding red giant to create a fold in space and catapult Vogager thousands of light years closer to home. I wondered if Liz seeing the red giant, followed by the crash could be linked? Maybe the Antarians underestimated the force of the magnetic pulse, which is what caused the ship to crash as Earth was nearer than they expected and therefore they did not have time to get control of the ship after it entered Earth's atmosphere. If this were the case, perhaps the second red giant is Khivar, another enemy or ally on their way to Earth? If the Antarians have to wait for a red giant to explode before they can travel long distances in space, this could explain why they take over human bodies as a way to communicate?

Probably a crazy idea and not very well expressed, but any takers?

I have a question along that line. Let me know if this has already been discussed. On silverhandprint.com in the media section, there is the whole fake Enquirer sheet with more details on things that have happened this season, except for one. That is the article on the Loch Ness monster. At first, I thought it was just there b/c it seems like something that would belong in an Enquirer-like rag, but then I wondered if it was a clue. This is the part that really peaked my interest:

quote:
the Professor had this to say: "I think we have to prepare ourselves for the possibility that the creature has evolved to the point where it now has the capacity to render itself invisible as a means to protect itself. This would explain why "Nessie’s" been so difficult to find or photograph all these years. The implications of this for the human race are far reaching…"

I guess that I was thinking about the discussion on this thread about Liz's hero journey and how many hero's have a guide of some sort. I was just thinking that this might be a clue as to some sort of guide that could make themselves invisible...?
Or maybe considering Liz's ability to astral project, maybe there are other abilities that she has but which she is unaware? I'm
not really sure where I'm going with this, but maybe someone has some insight?

You know, I remember thinking something similar. I definitely believe that the red giant exploding in MITC had something to do with the invasion 15 years later that prompted F-Max to go back to P-Liz. At the time, I thought that the red giant exploding may have forced the aliens to leave their home system and come to earth, but I think your theory makes more sense. Considering that even if one were to travel at the speed of light, it would take years to arrive to earth I believe that the red giant exploding may be indicative of aliens heading to earth to invade.

Which means that while FMax changed the future by making sure that Tess did not leave, he did not change the future invasion: the coming alien invasion in 15 years. Essentially, he just changed the fact that 4 would fight instead of just 3. (And of course, they got rid of the extra supply of Skins who would've lasted at least until the coming invasion.)

Now I'll pass this back out to the next taker?

-When the Skins get off the bus, Nicholas says "let's go find some aliens". Now, why did he use the word "aliens"? It may be nothing, but it's really bugging me. Because the Pod Squad doesn't say "aliens, they say Skins". So why didn't Nicholas say "Antarians" or "Twilonians"?
Because the Story on the Green Torpedo is that it affected all humans. It didn't remove aliens. Hence, what that little rat Nikolas would find would be all the aliens: shapeshifters, hybrids, renegade Skins, etc. The kids really don't have anyone to talk about, those days, except Skins.

-I couldn't tell, but it seems to me that the poles they were tied to in the end weren't there before the Ros4 were tied to them. I mean, it just seems like something very strange to have in front of the doors inside a school.
No, the Skins created them; and when the Skins were removed, the poles disappeared too.

-Tess, is, as usual, really bothering me. They were little things, but nonetheless. She was much more take charge in this episode than in previous episodes. For instance, when she was questioning Courtney, well, I got creepy chills. It was just too strange. Then, when Nicholas appears at the school with the Skins, Tess has this look on her face like Nicholas betrayed her. And this may not mean anything, but when Nicholas was finished mindraping Max, the only person he didn't take a jab at was Tess. Plus, I'm not even going to attempt to touch her fireburst power at the moment. Suffice to say that, after this week's episode, I really don't trust Tess.
*Tess is protecting Max, and herself, and the others. She was probably brought up with self-defense training; she's got teeth, and isn't squeamish about using them. Besides, the curiosity isn't Tess asking questions. It's the others NOT asking questions!!!
*Nikolas probably did betray his King, as did Kivar. He certainly claimed to have killed proto-Michael. Why wouldn't Tess (who remembers, a little), hold it against him?
*And Tess, ignored by Nikolas. He probably figured that she was the least important (remember mousey little Ava), so why bother with her?
*Courtney said that Nikolas's powers were a thousand times stronger than the podsters. The podsters were originally even stronger than him! It makes sense that Tess, the best trained one, would be able to use a sort of "hysterical strength" to protect Max. (Remember the stories of mothers who pick up cars that have run over their kids, etc. Same thing, only with alien powers.)

Someone (I forget who) brought up a theory a while back about a possible reason why everything seems so disjointed right now.
It's because the writers and directors haven't been paying attention. Hopefully there will be a better Season 3.

So, it's clear from RM's comments about Tess, that they've decided to go in a different direction with her character. No chance of evil Tess rearing her ugly head. Never mind, some of us have long memories

[/B]

Actually - I think what RM was saying was that they KNEW that everyone hated/was suspicious of Tess and so they had to "rehabilitate" her character before she could be a viable player/threat in the love triangle.
I remember last season (yes - I was spoiled then too) before Tess showed up all the spoilers were about how there was going to be this BIG MESSY triangle - thats what the whole destiny thing is about. BUT - Tess was written so creepily last season that at the end of destiny I never even considered that she was going to keep Max and Liz apart. I mean - it was not even an OPTION in my mind.
If they had gone straight into a triangle in Skin and Bones - only to reveal shockingly that Tess had an evil agenda - it would have never worked because everyone already KNEW she had an evil agenda.
So - the writers HAD to really work to make her sympathetic and likeable before they could move on and resolve the destiny mess.

Will she turn out to be innocent, evil or just misunderstood???? Thats anyones guess.
What is vital is that her character has evolved to the point that there can be a plot twist/uncertianty/suprise/etc - and that just wasnt possible when Tess was flat-out spooky.

GREAT pick-up on the Loch Ness Monster!!!!
The tabloid section wasnt loading for me - but if they included that article - I would put money on the fact that it is a clue.
I am guessing the green-vision thingy is invisible.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Gee, torrance, let's see what we can do to help.
Well, Liz Mythology 101 requires that you "GraceKel" your VCR until all this starts to make sense.

Definition of GraceKel:

v. to GraceKel
1. Using the "Stop," "Rewind," "Play," "Pause," and other commands on your VCR remote repeatedly with a Roswell tape inserted into the VCR.

2. Doing (1.) repeatedly until you need a new VCR.

I'm not that familiar with any of this stuff but its very interesting. Perhaps they do use the energy to catapult their ships although I'm thinking if the ship was thrusted into our solar system they would have had enough time or some kind of technology to prevent slamming into a planet, but who knows right? Also I don't think they would have had any remains left? I'm thinking to that the impact must have been with something while still flying INSIDE the earth? Perhaps it was an attack on the ship?

quote: If this were the case, perhaps the second red giant is Khivar, another enemy or ally on their way to Earth?

I think you're definately on to something.

re: to them taking over human bodies might just be because its quicker and a lot more economical ? Wherever they were coming from it would still take a long time to get here. If you were traveling at light speed it would still take you five hours to get to Pluto.

Zero: Great comments on the commentary of season 2. Here is my 2 cents.

It is a little confusing hearing the actors POV and then the characters.

Liz said, "the fact that we do have this real connection, and there is this fire and this energy between us. You don't really want to give up on something until its reached its full potential, and I don't think Max and I have, yet!"

Shiri said, It's kind of sweet because it's nice that she is attracted to someone who is so opposite to Max ... everytime a person gets into a different relationship, a different side of their personality comes out - a stronger Liz Parker is coming out. More confident. I think that they sort of let go of the whole Max thing. Think about Liz's goals in life, and what she needs, and they'll love Sean Delucca because he's great and we love him here!"

Ok so I see a contradection here, who are we to believe Liz or Shiri? Liz's interview was much more recent, should we now believe they are going to leave us hanging until their potential is reached, and what will it take to reach that potential?

Shiri's interview reads like TPTB tossed out the Liz and Max relationship and Liz needs Sean to help her become more confident. Now how many of you smacked your head when you read this?
Well the Dreamer that I am, who lives in that land of denial, tried to look on the bright side. What I think Shiri ment by the whole "Max thing," was Liz's obsession with Max. Just because she is no longer obsesed with Max does not mean the fire and energy has gone out. Liz will become stonger by letting other people in but she will not be pushing Max out, just keeping him on simmer. With all the clues that we have discovered, I think in the end Liz will find out her goals in life, and what she needs, all leads her back to Max.

Evid

Probably a crazy idea and not very well expressed, but any takers?

I like your theory but I'm confused about one thing. You first mentioned that the red giant was used as kind of a catapult to propel the Antarians' ship to earth. I can buy that, especially since the red giant and the crash were in Liz's SH visions. However, I'm a little confused about the other red giant in MITC. Did you mean that it symbolized/announced another Antarian ship coming to earth or that it actually propelled another ship? From what I've read on the subject, red giants and supernovas are pretty rare. So while the first red giant might have been in Antar's neighborhood another red giant would (statistically) probably be just as far away as earth itself and thus couldn't provide much power.
Great theory otherwise! I'm sure the writers wouldn't make red giants reoccur if they didn't have some significance.

Aldebaran – I think you’ve just discovered a new CHAD!

Huggybehr – Interesting about the Red Giant! Since it was brought up both seasons (one of the few things like that) – it seems that it should be of some significance, but I have no idea what. Your theory makes sense to me!

Thanks Lil’sasha! And Welcome! I wondered too about WHY? The article was included about the Lock Ness Monster (having visited Loch Ness – I can confirm I never saw any monster, but it is beautiful countryside!). I thought it might have something to do with the tear in the fabric of time – allowing the monster to show up some place temporarily where it is not supposed to be – only to be restored to its original “place” once the tear in the fabric of time repairs itself. Does that make sense? I was thinking – like in Wipeout – where did all the humans go? Another dimension – but what dimension? The way it was written, when they (the humans) were “restored” they seemed to not have missed a beat in time – though everything around them had moved forward (food was cold, etc.) – they had lost time. This would be the opposite with the LNM – though we don’t know what happened to it when it was restored to its original time and surroundings. Ummm….?

But I do think that there is a chance that Liz has a guardian of some kind, and in the new Intro I proposed that the thing watching them though wide sight/eyes in Wipeout might have been an invisible guardian – like Harding when he made himself “invisible” by becoming an inanimate object – part of the cave wall.

Quote from Reggie:
quote: Someone (I forget who) brought up a theory a while back about a possible reason why everything seems so disjointed right now.
It's because the writers and directors haven't been paying attention. Hopefully there will be a better Season 3.

StarBox – I agree with your take on the Tess thing. I think they are rehabilitating her, but for a reason that they have yet to reveal – there are too many quirks for there not to be something to it all! :spineye: But Huggybehr that doesn’t mean that I don’t disagree with you totally. This whole season has left me confused completely with respect to the Tess character! (Which tend to drive me nuts! ) I understand some of the character development and change, but much of it is inconsistent.
Torrance – keep reading and it will eventually all (at least some of it) make sense! Welcome!
BellaBabe – I like your take on the Earth, Water, Fire, Air and Spirit analysis. Welcome from Lurkdom!
Evid –
quote: Now how many of you smacked your head when you read this?
Yes!! ITA! That all clues lead Liz back to Max – or Max back to Liz!

Nothing new to add tonight!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

These are just things that bugged me during the episode. I may just be getting excited over nothing again, but...

-Liz wasn't wearing an apron, but Maria was. Any takers on significance of this?

I totally forgot about that! Didn't someone meantion that in Liz's dream, her being without the apron meant that she was more sexually open?

What if the PTB are giving us a clue there? Liz is while Maria isn't?

Just a thought that I'd thought I'd throw out.

And, Thing Two again:
I was just reading Gabby's version of the TSAP Script and it struck me that quite possible both time Isabel got flashes from people in trouble (Tess in Surprise and Laurie in TSAP) quite possibly Grant was doing the abducting. So, I'm thinking that the real Grant was communicating with her, or the Gandarium had the essence of some dead, innocent alien, or...?

What if the PTB are giving us a clue there? Liz is while Maria isn't?

I mentioned that (about the apron) a few eps back. I tend to think that a missing apron in a dream would have more significane than a missing one in "real life" simply because dreams tend to be more symbolic and a little more representative of the subconscious. Liz in real life is very pure and sort of prudish (at least that is the image she projects). I would think the apron on or off would just be indicative of a crazy day or the end of a shift or something. In a dream that was obviously sexually charged to begin with, a missing apron would be appropriate in its sexual overtones (representative of fertility, covering or not covering a person's sexuality).

Then again, it could just be poor planning on the costume dept's part!

Argo

Max & Liz must reunite!

I have a question along that line. Let me know if this has already been discussed. On silverhandprint.com in the media section, there is the whole fake Enquirer sheet with more details on things that have happened this season, except for one. That is the article on the Loch Ness monster. At first, I thought it was just there b/c it seems like something that would belong in an Enquirer-like rag, but then I wondered if it was a clue. This is the part that really peaked my interest:

I guess that I was thinking about the discussion on this thread about Liz's hero journey and how many hero's have a guide of some sort. I was just thinking that this might be a clue as to some sort of guide that could make themselves invisible...?
Or maybe considering Liz's ability to astral project, maybe there are other abilities that she has but which she is unaware? I'm
not really sure where I'm going with this, but maybe someone has some insight?

1) We see in a flash Little Max steping off the School bus. What grade is he enrolled in that day? 3rd?

2) We see little Max stepping off the school bus and having his attention drawn by something, the shot changes and we see little Liz.
Are we assuming that little Liz is what has little Max's attention?
Also, in that particular flashback, do we see Liz wearing the Cupcake Dress???

3)If indeed the flashback indicates that Little Max, fresh off the bus, sees little Liz, who is wearing the cupcake dress, my question is then -
How can we be seeing a 3RD GRADE MAX seeing Liz in the Cupcake Dress when it has been stated that Liz wore that dress in 1st grade and didn't know Max until 3rd grade?

I must be messing up the flashes. I can't keep all these little things straight. Is that my problem??

My interest was peaked when I read that seemingly out of place Loch Ness blurb, but the Invisibility thing made me think of those weird distorted POV's that we've seen in Skin episodes. But evolution as a factor makes it sound like a power, something that could be directed at will. I've always thought it more probable that the Skins were using a technology, not a power to make themselves invisible. But of course if you can manipulate molecular structures...

Personally, I am of the opinion that it was merely meant as a 'joke'. A little bit of humor for the diehard fans.

However, if we were to speculate about Why The Loch Ness Monster... (We're RBI's..it's compulsive, we can't help it)

Is it just a fairy tale, or could a primeval beast lurk in the deep, dark waters of a Scottish lake? Since it was first reported more than 60 years ago, hundreds claim to have witnessed the Loch Ness Monster, while one scientist after another has brought the latest technology to the loch to probe the phenomenon

In a way the story and legend of the Loch Ness monster kind of mirrors the story and legend of the UFO crash at Roswell. It's folklore, same as the UFO crash at Roswell. Did it really happen? Can we prove it's real? Do you believe?

I think it's kind of a tongue in cheek commentary on the whole phenomenon. Loch Ness, like Roswell and Big Foot are some of the biggest mysteries :wink: on earth.

If you need to reach me, you can email me at metaphysicalgrl@bellevuehospital.com

(that last bit was my sad attempt at humor; and not an actual email address!)

{~}:}

1) We see in a flash Little Max steping off the School bus. What grade is he enrolled in that day? 3rd?

2) We see little Max stepping off the school bus and having his attention drawn by something, the shot changes and we see little Liz.
Are we assuming that little Liz is what has little Max's attention?
Also, in that particular flashback, do we see Liz wearing the Cupcake Dress???

3)If indeed the flashback indicates that Little Max, fresh off the bus, sees little Liz, who is wearing the cupcake dress, my question is then -
How can we be seeing a 3RD GRADE MAX seeing Liz in the Cupcake Dress when it has been stated that Liz wore that dress in 1st grade and didn't know Max until 3rd grade?

I must be messing up the flashes. I can't keep all these little things straight. Is that my problem??

Howdy...I'll jump in here. Liz wasn't wearing the cupcake dress in the flashback of Max stepping off the bus. She's actually wearing this cute little Guatamlan looking poncho shirt thing. (great description, huh?)
Anyhow, that might not be the best description, but she's definitely NOT wearing the cupcake dress.

But good almost catch, Rebecca!!!!

{~}:}

But good almost catch, [b]Rebecca!!!!

{~}:}

[/B]

LOL!!! Bummer.
I'm getting my wires crossed trying to somehow produce a theory 'out of thin air' about - Why Liz?!!

Thanks Metaphysicalgrl !!!

I hope the writers will throw us a bone soon. We've learned more about the Hybrid's significance and it's been wonderful, hard science aside, ...now, Now can we also have some Human Liz significance for balance?

:smile:

Thanks Metaphysicalgrl !!!

I hope the writers will throw us a bone soon. We've learned more about the Hybrid's significance and it's been wonderful, hard science aside, ...now, Now can we also have some Human Liz significance for balance?

:smile:

From your lips to gods ears! I'm pretty sure that everyone who posts on this thread is nodding their head vigorously in agreement as they read the last part of your post.

Well, they have 6 more episodes left of the season to throw us a bone. I personally think we'll be pretty busy on this thread trying to sort through it all!!

Smiles,
{~}:}

Met - Got the humor!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
(I can't spell sometimes! :lo: )

I've had this idea about The Destiny Books, and i know y'all haven't talked about it in a while and i'm sorry if somebody's already said this, but you know how it shows the pics of all 4 of them at 16? Why is everybody shaded, except for tess? And why does Isabel resemble liz so much?! Isabel's hair is shaded and that seems to imply that it's dark...which it's not???!.....ON a total diff subject...how do i change that little picture thingymabob?!! hehe.

If you think about the leaking pod - it could be that ONE of the 8 (dupes and podsters) is a "fake" (shapeshifter). I know alot of people feel that the leaky pod was just defective - but I tend to think that the fetus in the leaky pod either died or was born in 47.
In dealing with gestation - once the mebranes rupture - birth is imminent. Either the fetus was too immature to survive and died or it was born prematurely and lived.
Interestingly - the dates would work out to have Sheila Hubble born in 47.

Ok on another thing they were saying that maybe Sheila Hubble is related to Liz. Perhaps Tess/ava aren't real! Perhaps Liz is Max's Bride and Sheila was supposed to be Zan's Bride!! If the leaky pod did cause Sheila to "hatch" earlier, than she was an alien and didn't have her otehr "podsquad" members. So she died and Somebody (nacedo?) planted Tess and Ava to cover up the fact that she was gone and somehow erased all traces of Liz!!!!! AM I JUST NUTS?!?!?!?

I posted the following on the Spoiler Board and Metaphysicalgrl asked me to post it here too. Note: I’ve edited the spoilery info.

*Blink* *Blink* So that’s what the Sun looks like!?!? I’ve been doing some extensive research, and I would like to share with you what I found...

Pythagoras of Samos is often described as the first pure mathematician. Pythagoras was interested in the principles of mathematics, the concept of number, the concept of a triangle and other mathematical figures, and the abstract idea of a proof. He founded a philosophical and religious school in Croton. He also was involved with music and astronomy. Both men and women were permitted to become members of the society. The beliefs held were:

1) that at its deepest level, reality is mathematical in nature,
2) that philosophy can be used for spiritual purification,
3) that the soul can rise to union with the divine,
4) that certain symbols have a mystical significance, and
5) that all brothers of the order should observe strict loyalty and secrecy.

He taught that each number had its own personality – masculine or feminine, perfect or incomplete, beautiful or ugly…Ten was the very best number…it contained in itself the first four integers (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10) and these written in dot notation form a perfect triangle or Tetrakys. A Tetrakys is a triangle composed of ten points, one point in the middle and four points to each side, adding up to nine. This is the primary symbol of Pythagorean philosophy, susceptible of a number of interrelated mythological, cosmological, psychological, and sociological interpretations. One interpretation is the dot at the apex (if you are going to govern, it must be from the apex of the triangle, in the sense that the world eye is on top instead of being on one side or the other of the pyramid) is representing the creative center out of which the universe and all things have come. The pouring of transcendent energy into and expanding through the field of time precipitated the whole world. As soon as it enters the field of time, it breaks into pairs of opposites, the one becomes two. Now, when you have two, there are just three ways in which they can relate to one another. One way is of this one dominant over that; another way is of the one dominant over this; and a third way is of the two in balanced accord.

Pythagoras taught the dependence of the dynamics of world structure on the interaction of contraries, or pairs of opposites; the viewing of the soul as a self-moving number experiencing a form of metempsychosis, or successive reincarnation in different species until its eventual purification (particularly through a intellectual life) and the understanding that all existing objects were fundamentally composed of form and not of material substance. Further doctrine identified the brain as the “locus” of the soul. Locus is the set of all points whose location is determined by stated conditions.

Pythagoras held that the universe is a sphere according to the form of the four elements; but the highest fire alone is conical (cone shape). The universe is made from five solid figures: the earth has arisen from the cube, fire from the pyramid, air from the octahedron, and water from the icosahedron, and the sphere of the all from the dodecahedron. If you give their numerical representation:

Cube = 3
Pyramid = 4
Octahedron = 8
Icosahedron = 20
Dodecahedron = 12

Added together they equal 47.

And 47 is considered the quintessential random number. Many suspect that the coincidental nature of 47 carries some mystical, metaphysical and/or scientific significance. The phenomenon may have first been documented at Pomona College in 1964, when Professor Donald Bentley proved that all numbers are equal to 47. Coincidentally, 47 seems to occur on or near the college campus with amazing frequency, even by enthusiast standards. But make no mistake: 47 is everywhere and people were noticing it long before 1964.

Also…The number 47 makes an abnormally high appearance in episodes of Star Trek. It is believed that a conspiracy is being coordinated by Joe Menosky, with substantial cooperation from Ronald D Moore, Brannon Braga and Jeri Taylor (who have all served as Star Trek Producers and/or Writers). The frequency of use of this obscure number is well outside normal parameters. Commonly masked in a technical exchange or read from a sensor panel, the number is often mentioned or displayed so quickly that it is missed by the casual observer.

It is said that Pythagoras was the first to recognize the slant of the zodiacal circle and asserted that each world of the stars is air and aether surrounding earth in the infinite aether. According to a superficial account the soul is of two parts, the one possessing, the other lacking, reason; but according to close and exact examination, of three parts; for the unreasoning part they divide into the emotions and the desires. The successors of Pythagoras said that the body is a mixture of five elements (for they ranked the aether as a fifth along with the four) held that the powers of the soul are of the same number as these. And these they name intelligence and wisdom and understanding and opinion and sense perception. The principle of life is about the heart, but the principle of reason and intelligence is about the head.

Aether is the belief in a universal, cosmic fluid pervading all space. To the Greeks, aether was the rarified air breathed by the gods on Olympus. Newton when prompted to explain the nature of gravity in non-mathematical terms, he replied that gravity might be transmitted by an invisible aether. He further suggested that aether also may be responsible for electricity, magnetism, light, radian heat, and the motion of living things that he thought was the consequence of some source beyond inanimate matter (immaterial, vital forces such a ch’i, ki, prana, and psychic energy which have no scientific basis). Newton proposed that vibrations of aether might be excited by the brain. This speculation forms the conceptual foundation for the modern myth of quantum consciousness and the related belief that the human mind commands special powers – psychic forces – that transcend the material universe.

In Sumerian cosmology the V constellation is a metaphorical copulation of the male A and the female V, from which the Greek “holy tetraktys” is abstracted.

Alien symbol could represent a Mandala. A Mandala is a Sanskrit compound word of manda which means “essence” and a suffix la, meaning “container” or “possessor.” Thus mandala means “A Container of Essence” or “Sphere of the Essence.” Manadala is also a Sanskrit word for “circle.” From this etymology (origin of a word), the mandala shares a common characteristic of having a center or axis and directional headings. It could also be a place where Microcosmo and Macrocosmo unite. A place where inner world, called the Self, and the outer world, called the Universe, get together in your body. The mandala is your body, which represents the entire universe. The union or harmony (balance) of self and the universe, inner world and outer world.

Also, the alien symbol could represent a Navajo sand painting. The Navajo have many star myths and much sky lore (i.e., The two Nahookos, The Male and Female Ones Who Revolve (The Big Dipper and Cassiopeia), who symbolized a married couple that circle Polaris. Polaris represented a fire in the center of their hogan. (Note: Cassiopeia A is believed to be the remains of a massive star that exploded in the late 17th century.)

*To those that are flying with me into Specular Land, please fasten your seat belts and observe the no smoking sign...it maybe a bumping ride, but I promise that I’ll fly over as much of the turbulence as I can. Please accept a complimentary drink of your choice before we take off - The Behroness*

First and foremost, even though the Pod Squad is a complete unit (4); they will NOT be at their most powerful without The Fifth...namely Liz! Liz is not only important to the success of the Pod Squad...she is VITAL. She is intelligent, she has wisdom beyond her years, she is understanding (her sacrifice in EOTW), and her opinions and sense perception are valued.

Now to Max...There have been three Max’s, even for a short time, existing in the same field of time. Since Zan has been taken out of the picture, so to speak, FMax and PMax need to balance; i.e. FMax needs to realize that there has to be another way to save the world and PMax needs to get back together with Liz. I can also spec that FMax and PMax’s conflict has made PMax weaker and indecisive. Originally, Kivar was willing to do away with Max; but to Kivar’s horror it was found out during the conference between the leaders of the five planets that the granolith is not on Antar. I’m speculating that Kivar needs to find it and retrieve it as quickly as he can and with PMax in a weaken state, he will be more easily manulipated.

The number 47...just a guess; it could be 47 degrees West. In Navajo mythology, wisdom and knowledge enters from the West and it‘s possible that this has to do with the granolith‘s position during activation.

It’s possible that Liz through mediation or by some other means could awaken her past life essence as Max’s first wife. I know...wishful thinking. But from Liz’s explanation as to why she and Max are attracted to each other...”fire” was used and fire is the highest of the four elements and is cone shaped...granolith anyone??? And if there is a means where Liz is transformed into a Mandala, she could be The Container of Essence. This also could be a possible explanation if Max has a “V’ symbol as the Royal Seal; that Liz could have the “A”. Ok...I know that this is opposite, Max with the female symbol and Liz with the male symbol, but it could mean that during the transfer of their essence, they broke into opposites when they entered into the field of time (Earth time). I’m theorizing that the transfer of their essences took place on Antar and Antar is probably light years away from Earth. This would also explain why Max and Liz have a deep-seeded attraction; but were completely unaware of their past lives due to the transfer.

I know that this is way toooo long, but I tried to condense the info as best I could.

*Take you for flying Air Behroness *

Comments? Suggestions? Flames? *Ohhh Ouch*

Barbara

“If you are going through hell, keep going.”
---Winston Churchill

CharmedKitten posted on the MOB thread that she gave Shiri the Liz Thread I took to LA with me. I never had the oppurtunity to talk to Shiri (without great risk) but she has it now!!!!

Whadya think!?

<sigh> So now she knows we're nuts...

Whadya think!?

Hi Crazy4Roswell16

Cool...my e-mail is behroness@hotmail.com

I've love to read your ideas and who knows, we may crack this case...

Barbara
*The game is afoot*

quote:Originally posted by Crazy4Roswell16:
...it could be that ONE of the 8 (dupes and podsters) is a "fake" (shapeshifter). I know alot of people feel that the leaky pod was just defective - but I tend to think that the fetus in the leaky pod either died or was born in 47.
In dealing with gestation - once the mebranes rupture - birth is imminent. Either the fetus was too immature to survive and died or it was born prematurely and lived.
Interestingly - the dates would work out to have Sheila Hubble born in 47. ...Crazy4Roswell16, you definitely fit in here! And although those are variations on themes we've covered, it's nice to get a fresh slant, plus it contributes to the body of folks who think a direction is logical. And maybe your post is a good place for me to launch into my latest speculation since rewatching Summer of 47 ( Thank you, Palomino for sending me a new copy -- I will not leave them in the VCR unattended ever again!):
Okay, So we have:
1) Yvonne White disappearing with a scream and nobody on the bus seeing her
and
2) The pods definitely being saved after Hal said nothing could have gotten out of there

So, Perhaps these deeds were both covered by Tessovisions. What? You say no Tess in 1947? Well, then let's dust off my ol' theory that Tess was cloned from the essence of Nasedo's wife who got killed by the military.

And/or: how about if both Yvonne White and the pods were put into a time fold like on Wipe Out for safe keeping--Yvonne being the nurse to care for them. And what seemed like a short time in the time fold was really about 40 years.

Behroness! Where have you been for the past 33 threads! You belong with us!
So then, could Liz be in the right place at the right time and just sort of fit in a slot that Max recognized? Of course this does not mean I'm abandoning my Continuous Time Loop Theory in which Max recognizes Liz because he will fall in love with her in the future.

Hi shapeshifter

Thanks for the welcome. Now that I know of this thread, I'll definitely make it a part of my viewing pleasure. I just love to come up with theories and specs.

Barbara

Qfanny - and CharmedKitten - that is sooooo exciting, but I wish we could get her the new up-date, too! Then she will truly think we are nut cases! I hope she appreciates how much we enjoy her character - and a big part of that is Shiri's ability to bring Liz to life! :applaud:

Crazy and Baroness - Welcome to the Thread!

Baroness - cool analysis/information! Thanks for bringing that over here!

I'm fitting a horible cold, so I'm off to slumberland! May brain is wasted right now.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Have you guys watched those lately? What do you think?

Behroness Welcome...I told you they would love your post over here!!!! I think you've found yourself a new home!!

Welcome to all the Newbies...Love your thoughts and it's great to see you touching on some of the same things people have already speculated on over here. Kind of proves everyone isn't so crazy!!!

Zero I'm so excited to see the new intro!! If we don't say it enough, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!

Qfanny That is great that Shiri got the intro to this thread!!! Thanks for helping to do that. Did you ever get my package? I haven't heard from you, and it hasn't been returned to me. Just wonderin'!!!

Shapeshifter Your comment about Nessie being related to the aliens had me rolling on the floor. I don't know if you were serious or not, but I appreciated it none the less!! We truly are a sick bunch.

Anyway, that's all I really had to say. Hope I didn't leave anyone out!

Smiles,
{~}:}

[b]Behroness Welcome...I told you they would love your post over here!!!! I think you've found yourself a new home!!
[/B]

Hi Meta

Thanks again for the invitation and I think you are right...I think I'm going to it here.

Barbara

Thanks again for the invitation and I think you are right...I think I'm going to it here.

Barbara

I don't think there was ever a doubt!! A warm and hearty welcome to you. Did you have a chance to read Zero's wonderful intro yet? It's worth taking the time to read it. I think on the next thread Zero is going to be updating it, so you might want to just wait until then -- if you haven't read it yet. It'll give you an idea of the breadth and scope of our collective madness!!!

Anyhow, I'm glad you found your way over!!

{~}:}

And yet another Summer of 47 epiphany:
In the Granolith chamber there are 2 distinct, matched light shapes beamed on the ceiling. They are also there in EOTW. They look like the "Allies" symbol from silver handprint:
and

Check out Liz's SH vision. She is seeing things from the perspective of the ship as it hurtles through space, enters Earth's atmosphere at what appears to be a high speed and plummets towards the ground.

MsLParker-yes I too noticed Nicholas saying that Max is still trusting the wrong people and we have a look from and at TESS hmmmm--no accident here I am sure.

Welcome to ALL NEWBIES--Crazy4Roswell16--you don't know how many times we have discussed this very possiblity about Sheila Hubble being the original fourth podster--but it is always nice to see someoneelse come in and confirm or theorize along the same lines, makes us all feel well if somebodyelse thought this then we just might not be CRAZY.LOL!!!

The Barohness D'Roswell--welcome indeed-what incredible research you have done please continue to come and share with us.

As for what are they doing with TESS---well I think the problem here is that they want to keep it OPEN--in other words I think they want to have it both ways---they haven't fully decided which way they want to go with this character so they are vascillating back and forth--therefore we have somewhat of a split personality character in Tess. I was crazy enough to originally believe they had some long term planning with this story but am disappointed that it looks like----NOT!!! Oh well!!!

Oh Metaphysicalgrl thanks for all your info and symbolism pics as well--very interesting indeed.

But the real reason for my post is that while I was reading I found the interview from silverhandprint, and I noticed that noone commented on the answer Tess gave here:

Question: How have your powers changed?

Tess: I defintely have more control over my powers, we've all, like just all of us talking and working together whenever we can, we've developed so many more intricate ways of using what we have. Which is very useful in everyday life, but sometimes it's...it's hard to have that upon yourself, that you
can, knowing that you can pretty much, "fix" and do anything, and "not always wanting to do it." It's kind of a hard decision to make when to use them I think, for me anyway.

Is this some kind of foreshadowing???

Im just dreaming *sigh*

Suppose that the second shapeshifter was female, which I've been saying. Tic-tac is the more nurturing of the two, agreed? Perhaps her powers were more like one of the female hybrids... like Tess!

In which case, the bunches of pods could have been spirited away under cover of a Tic-tac-ovision! It would be a useful talent to have, if one wanted to retroactively rescue Agent Topulski.

Speaking of...
None of the pods themselves was "opened". The membrane around one of them was cut into, and the ~amniotic sac was exposed; but the amniotic sac containing a "podster" fetus was completely intact. Shapeshifter has a screencap of that on her site. Perhaps she'll post it? <hint, hint>

Behroness: Welcome! All I can say is WOW!! Your research is wonderful. It's a bit much to digest in only one reading, but you've set the dusty creative wheels of my brain in motion

Regarding Loch Ness, I wondered about the invisibility quote also. I don't think it was randomly thrown in there. It got me thinking about Niko, that maybe he had evolved enough to make himself invisible. Maybe that's how he made his "strategic retreat" from Tess's firewarp. Or, it could be the other shapeshifter. It does seem that whomever is watching Liz through the blurry vision must be invisible, or extremely well hidden. Maybe the blurry vision is supposed to convey that the watcher is invisible.

About Tess, when she and Max have been seen together by those who knew them on Antar, it seems like there is always some mention of not repeating past mistakes or trusting the wrong people. I think Niko knows more about her than he lets on.

BTW, the Mythologists are getting more press on theWB.com talk pages. There is a thread with a link posted to theddd's Liz Mythologist dictionary of theories and symbols. Those who posted were VERY impressed by it!

I think it's great that Shiri has the intro!! Since Liz has been reduced to wallpaper this season, hopefully it will let her know how much we appreciate her work, and how important she is to the show.

OK, I know this is getting long, but one more thing I apologize in advance because this is totally off topic. As some of you know, I am from Oklahoma. You probably also know that Timothy McVeigh's book is being released shortly. What you may not know is that there is a false statement on the back that the proceeds from the book will go the bombing memorial. The people who run the memorial have made it clear that in NO WAY will they accept proceeds from this book. I am not trying to tell anyone not to buy the book, I am just letting you know that buying it will not help the memorial or the bombing victims in any way, regardless of what the publishers want the public to think. Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with Liz, other than both Liz and my state being near and dear to my heart

thanks for the support! It means a lot!

Looks like I have some more stuff to add to the Intro before the next thread! You all never fail to amaze me!

Iggy7275 – Welcome! I think we might have chat briefly about Tess’ comments – and yes, we see a lot of foreshadowing and suspicion raised by her comments. The comment you quoted goes to her moral fiber – or lack thereof! Will she or won’t she use her powers to get what she wants? That seems to be the dilemma see seems to be facing. I don’t seem to see Max, Michael or Isabel facing that same moral dilemma. They all seem to have “defined” their boundaries years ago – but of course are challenged every now and then – like when they went to “kill” Brody. They see to have better developed consciences.

Crazy – I love the party idea. Maybe if there is a big “party” to kick off Season 3 (Optimism!!), we can have a Myth grouping/get-together. I think I could talk my husband into letting me go to LA!

Is there a link to the WB myth discussion? I would be interested in what they have to say – though this is my “home”!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Where DID Tess get that book from? It sort of came out of the air (or the wall). I know that the Pod Squad can change molecular shapes, but.. well, that just seemed totally out of the air. Like she made it appear - created it herself.

On 4 square Tess gets the book from the libery wall, right. Now think about it, "she puts her hand in the wall." If she can put her hand threw, why not her whole body? Liz can't find Tess in the girls bathroom and then suddenly she appears, was she in the wall? Talk about a fly on the wall, listening in, how about a snake in the wall. Nasedo comes out of the cavewall, so this tells me that Tess like Nasedo is a shapeshifter.

why DID Tess know so much about the FBI compound where Max was taken? People mentioned that and I too wonder. Plus she knew that the highway patrol in MttM were FBI agents...how did she recognize them? She told them to keep driving when Max thought is was Liz on the side of the road. How the heck did Tess know that they were agents right away???

WHAT where the ARMY doing at Nasedo and Tess's house in TLV when Michael saw the house empty??? If Nasedo keeps changing who he is.. how could he get a job with the army and get such a prestegious postition that the ARMY would come to his house with guns???? To protect it or them etc???

*Why did Tess and Nasedo smile at the end of TLV when Max and Liz walk away together??

Just some questions and ideas?! Anybody got some answers?!?!!?/1

Edited to say--I'M FINALLY A FAN!!!!!! WOOOOHOOOO!!!!!!

When Tess took Kyle's room, why did she put a Z on the wall. Maybe she was just messing around or maybe it is some sort of symbol to protect her. yes, I realize that I am reaching.

They always refer to the podsters as well as the dupes as the Royal four.
Let me break something down.
Max was a prince and then king. (definately royalty)
Isabel was his sister (vilandra, princess, also royalty)
Tess, the bride of Zan (we assume) so she would have gained position of queen through marriage if she didn't already have a ryal position amongst another people or maybe she was nobility.
Michael, was betrothed to Vilandra, so they were not married yet. So where does his regal status come from? I guess nobility could apply too.
I think though that poses an interesting question. Why are all four refered to as Royal?

Throught season two they are called the royal four and we know , because of Rath, that war was because of the four of them.

Michael has more followers. Where are they and what was Courtney to those "renegade skins".

Whitaker says she captured Tess because she took a 50/50 chance that it was Vilandra. That doesn't make sense considering how much she knew about Vilandra. What is that was a cover for why she really took Tess. There could be a lot of theories there if that were true.

I didn't know that Shiela Hubble was listed as Tess's mother. That is a huge detail. I really hope that the writers don't dismiss all of the cool clues in the first season. I hate inconsistancy. Especially when they ignore an obvious chance for a very cool twist in the plot.

Summer of 47 has left me confused. The pods, sacs are described 3 different times, I think. How does each description coincide with the others because I am confused. Are we to assume that they were separated and how. any ideas?

Thanks you guys. This thread is so much fun.

Ok that is all I can think of at the moment

I have serious issues with the whole episode Wipe Out. Either this was another CHADful epi, or they are trying to tell us something. As in Tess is up to something. I said it before, and I will say it again. If Tess could feel Niko's power when they were hiding in the bathroom at the Crashdown, then he would have felt her power! (unless it was a CHAD) He almost had to have known she was there! The whole fireball thing...well I still think that was just a mindwarp, because how did she keep it from burning the podsters up? Didn't she say "it just happened"? Implying that she couldn't control/duplicate it? So I think it was a mindwarp. I am not saying that Tess is evil, just that something is up with all of that. Either Niko was just toying with them, or he was possibly controlling her. I mean, if Larek can control Brody from lightyears away, why couldn't Niko control Tess from 2 feet away?

Fire away!

Val

Zero: Thanks for the welcome. {{{Hugs}}} and a box of cyber tissues for your cold.

Metaphysicalgrl: Funny you should ask...I saw Zero’s extensive and impressive intro and thought to myself what a collection of great minds and specs specialists that contribute to this thread. WOW!!! I do plan to read it, but it will take a “little” time. After which, I will hopefully have something to contribute.

aldebaran: Thank you so much for the compliment...that was so sweet and thanks for the welcome.

GraceKel: Thanks for the compliment and the welcome!

moon maiden: Thanks muchly! Believe it or not...I originally had 13 pages and was able to condense it to 2. Who said you can never have too much knowledge??? oy!!!

Barbara
aka/The Behroness d’Roswell

I was wondering, how did you go about researching all that scientific information that could be associated with Roswell and the situation between Liz and Max? My ideas are definitely not that scientific. Also, do you think the writers even care about any of the stuff from season one? For example : sheila, or the book?

Val

Good point! Maybe the fire was a mind warp and Nicholas killed the other skins or the time thing could have killed them too. Nicholas power seems far superior to the other skins. Courtney was afraid of it. Maybe the skins couldn't survive without the time zone thingy. May they had one of those to keep humans out of copper summit? Something is up with Tess. TPTB are withholding info on purpose. I think she is like a secret weapon when it comes to the plot.

ok I have another theory on the whole marrige thing. Absolute specualtion. In the alien book they showed pictures of the female podsters pregnant. So let's assume that it is important for them to produce an heir because it was important enough to have instructions in the book. Now my thought process comes from watching too many Jane Austen films where marriage was a business. In one movie a family want this couple to get married but the girl is obviously very sickly and weak and would not have the costitution for baring children. Her family still wanted them to marry to maintain a noble status even though there was no attatchment between them. What if their marriage was an arrangement and real Ava couldn't produce and Viladra was betrothed to give the family a second chance for an heir but they were killed before they were married. So they are recreated maybe for another chance.

Was Khivar bad all along or was he a scorned lover who had to have his revenge?

Sorry for all of the random thoughts.

From WO.
Im look from CD site what exactly Nicolas said and then Im whatch how he did it in ep.

AND THE CROWD GOES WILD!!!!!!!!!!

That was some good stuff. I love it when life and math come together.::push up my glasses and straighten my pocket protecter:: ha ha ha

I've often thought that the Max/Tess or Zan/Ava marriage had to have been an arranged marriage situation. Remember in MITC, how Ava said to Liz that Zan always seemed to be waiting for someone else to come along? He cared about Ava, but not the way she wanted (she wanted romantic love, and I think his love for her was more sisterly/friendly). That's what Max is developing for Tess, too. He's cares about her, but it takes mind-warping for him to feel anything stronger (think about her tricks in TL&V -- ) -- his romantic, soul-mate kind of love is for Liz !!!

Anyone else have similar feelings about this episode, though?

Bistyboo1974

Behroness – Thanks for the tissue! I’m on antibiotics now, so hopefully my brain cells will be functioning more normally soon! You might want to wait for the new thread to read the Intro. I’ve up-dated it quite a bit in places – not so much in other places. It will be LONG – but …

Cravy (I think you raised this stuff – but my head is cloudy, and…) – I wonder a lot about Tess – and it has always driven me crazy :crazy: that they have not deciphered the book Tess pulled out of the wall. Others have noticed the shading, or lack of shading on Tess, and the similarities between the picture that would be Iz and Liz! Who knows what the writers are up to – but as someone mentioned – I too hope that Season 1 clues have not been forgotten.

MissLP – I’m a huge Jane Austen fan! (A little “Pride and Prejudice” anyone!) – and I love the social interactions! That is one of the reasons I’m interested in the social structure of Antar!

Val - I still think the snapping back of the time/dimension by Maria destroying the tube had a lot to do with the destruction of the Skins in Wipeout – and that Tess illusion was secondary – though given the credit! I still think it was an illusion – and am waiting to learn HOW Niko survived!

Bistyboo – Welcome! I think Liz did participate in the healing – but in her own way – she found her own path as River Dog said she had to do. Does that make sense? I do believe she had a healing stone from the beginning, but got scared has the ceremony proceeded and she listened carefully to what River Dog was saying.

Off to a meeting – Yuck! I don’t want to go!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I am new here and just thought I would put my two cents in. Please forgive me if this was talked about before.

In WO could Tess instead of mindwarping the Skins was she in actual fact be mindwarping the podsquads instead--make them believe that all the skins where all annihilated. I still can't figure out how come Nicholas survived the "fireball" and not the others. You guys might not be off the mark about Tess being involve with skins.

Another thing, why didn't Nasedo know CW was a skin? Courtney had that HUGE silver thingy in her back why not the CW? Just have another thought, was the "tic tac" shapeshifter watching him, did he (tic tac) kill Nesado because he was the evil shapeshifter. I don't know any thing any more, it's just that you guys got me thinking about this.

Can someone, anyone help me???

I think ALL you guys are SENSATIONAL, I thought I was a serious Roswell fan but you all of you put me to shame.

I was wondering, how did you go about researching all that scientific information that could be associated with Roswell and the situation between Liz and Max? My ideas are definitely not that scientific. Also, do you think the writers even care about any of the stuff from season one? For example : sheila, or the book?

Actually it started in a lil' old log cabin...hehehehehe j/k

I'm a fan of Joseph Campbell and while reading an excerpt from "The Power of the Myth," he talked about a Pythagorean tetrakys
and it reminded me of what FMax said how the Pod Squad were a complete unit (4). But Campbell pointed out the "apex" of the tetrakys being the representation of creativity...which the universe and all things come. And from that I thought of Liz. Once I made the connection, whatever I researched flowed like connecting the dots.

Do the writers care about Season 1??? Are you asking because of the departure from Season 1 storylines or because they have made more questions than answers?

Honestly, I'm giving the writers; but more importantly Jason Katims, the benefit of the doubt. I'm not living in their shoes and don't know what presures, etc they are having to deal with. Also, remember, several creative people left to pursue other projects. Anyway, if they want Roswell to be the success that I know we all want, I'm sure these concerns will be delt with.

Barbara

AND THE CROWD GOES WILD!!!!!!!!!!

That was some good stuff. I love it when life and math come together.::push up my glasses and straighten my pocket protecter:: ha ha ha [/B]

Hi MissLParker

Oh WOW!!! You are too kind. Thanks for the applause.

Barbara

~*~FREAKY OCCURANCE~*~
1. I was looking back on notebooks from last year during summer vacation when i was on a family roadtrip. I had just watched DESTINY when we took off and that was firmly stuck in my head. I was reading the story and a sentence popped out. "as the four touched hands a light appeared and a door opened near the pods. A giant machine was hidden in that chamber. As they all walked towards it, (the pod squad and humans) nobody could enter the chamber but Michael, Isabel, Max and Liz. The machine lit up as they approached and they knew that this was hte machine that would help them out"
HOW STRANGE IS THAT?!!>?!?!?!?! I WROTE THAT BEFORE THE GRANOLITH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAAAAA!!!!

~*~ FREAKY OCCURANCE ~*~
2. I received this the other day. I signed up for a daily horoscope and look what it said!!

You're attracted to the strange and inexplicable. You seem to have
solid evidence that the aliens are among us and working respectable
day jobs. Don't let the possibilities seduce you too far from reality.

now THAT is strange!!! haha. Totally off subject but i'm strange like that. ok i'm leaving before y'all hurt me!! Bye!!

Granilith was only a bonus.What was real motive of skins ?...
Vihmakass, I had assumed Nicholas was being sarcastic--meaning that the granilith was the only thing he really wanted to know about.
But maybe you are right and it does have a double meaning. Remember when we thought the orbs were the most important thing (and Pierce seemed to think the orbs were most important)? But the orbs just led to the Granolith. So maybe the Granolith is not as important as we think, but something else is.
And probably new writers will think something else is more important.

By the way, the Feb. Facts on File issue of Today's Science on File has the headline: "Custom-Made Monkey Stuns Scientists..." I've quoted a bit below--doesn't it remind all of you of the Hybrid Chronicles?: quote:...Meet ANDi, the world's first made-to-order monkey. ...just like other primates, except for one thing: he was born with a phosphorescent jellyfish gene in his cells....
...ANDi's new gene normally causes jellyfish to glow green, and was used because it's easy to spot in engineered offspring--just place them under a fluorescent light.
Unfortunately, ANDi doesn't glow in the dark (but one of his still-born relatives did)....The ethics of the experiment may be questionable, but it sure made me wonder if the Roswell writers were up on this latest cloning experiments.

Behroness B : ohhh! So good to see you in here ! Your research was fascinating to read! Can I ask you to expand a bit more on some stuff?

quote:
Now to Max...There have been three Max’s, even for a short time, existing in the same field of time. Since Zan has been taken out of the picture, so to speak, FMax and PMax need to balance...

Ok, would Zan also have a future version of himself so you meant four or did you mean Present Max (1), Future max (2) ...and Past Max (3)? Also don't you think its quantically impossible to eliminate FMax from existance? there cannot be a present Max without a PMax AND a FMax...that always had me scratching my head as to how FMax was so sure he would no longer "be"...which would mean that he knew he was going to die in NYC??? Because thats the only way he would have seized to co-exist...then if Liz saves him them FMax exists again...there HAS to be a FMax stilll even if the future of it part was changed...

Also when you said that "Liz could have the 'A'" did you mean per say if she learns to tap into her past life essence thru present changes in her mind powers that she might discover she has a royal seal of her own (A)?...or what exactly would be your take? So interesting stuff btw!

Finally, when you said they tranfered their essences back on Antar (switch male/female..etc.) what exactly did you mean by "transfer"? We talking 'cementing' or what?

And I also have full faith that Jason Katims will pull the strings back to form something that makes sense to all.

Hi guys

At anyrate - I thought you'd enjoy this picture. I hope you recognize the guy. I don't know who the crazy girl is... Me on 3 hours sleep.

2.
SHERIFF: You were worried about me, and you didn't want me sleeping alone, so you did instead. That was a brave thing for a 6-year-old to do, and I was...and I was proud of you.(about Kyles mom leaving)

3.
MAX: Well, we know we came out of the pods in 1989. We just don’t know how long we were there. When we came out we looked like 6 year olds.

(All this kids have mysterious age - 6.)
4.
Alex - ?
5.
Liz - ?

Ok so Shiela---Tess
\ /
Liz

Connect the dots please. Gimmie your theories and all the possibilities you can think of.

Zero yeah a fellow Austen fan. I imagine Ava having a mother like the (said just like Mr. collins) illustrious "Lady Katherine DeBurg". hee hee I never tire of P&P. I the A&E version.

Edited because that Shiela, Tess, Liz thing is supposed to form a triangle.

Ok so Shiela---Tess
\ /
Liz

Connect the dots please. Gimmie your theories and all the possibilities you can think of.

Ok, would Zan also have a future version of himself so you meant four or did you mean Present Max (1), Future max (2) ...and Past Max (3)? [/B]

It was my take on transcendent energy when it enters the field of time...it breaks into pairs of opposites; i.e. when Zan of Antar's essence (1) was transferred creating Max (2) and Zan of NY (3) it created opposites (Max and Zan of NY...his soul split). It seem to explain why Max and Zan of NY were so completely different. Anyway, when FMax changed history (EOTW), Zan of NY was killed in the new timeline, thereby negating a part of Max's soul (Zan of Antar). The part that carries reasoning. It just seems to me the Max isn't quite on the ball these days. Now that the timeline has been changed FMax is probably in a worse state...he believes that Liz slept with Kyle and is forging a relationship with Tess. Of course, this can be changed...Max needs to find out that Liz did not sleep with Kyle and why she deceived him...because FMax asked her to lie to keep Tess from leaving. Don't get me wrong, I loved EOTW. Jason and Shiri were incredible; but I didn't really understand why Liz and FMax couldn't go to Max and Tess and explain the situation??? Maybe there's something with Tess that made this solution impossible?

Also don't you think its quantically impossible to eliminate FMax from existance? there cannot be a present Max without a PMax AND a FMax...that always had me scratching my head as to how FMax was so sure he would no longer "be"...which would mean that he knew he was going to die in NYC??? Because thats the only way he would have seized to co-exist...then if Liz saves him them FMax exists again...there HAS to be a FMax stilll even if the future of it part was changed...

Yes there is a FMax, there's just not a Zan of NY now. But FMax is different (FMax is not the same person who came to Liz during EOTW). In this new timeline, we can already see the affect on Max and who knows how much more he will change. There will always be a FMax as long as there is a Present Max. If Present Max should ever cease to exist, then of course FMax would never be.

Also when you said that "Liz could have the 'A'" did you mean per say if she learns to tap into her past life essence thru present changes in her mind powers that she might discover she has a royal seal of her own (A)?...or what exactly would be your take? So interesting stuff btw!

Exactly! I just thought it was interesting that the "V" constellation not only representing a star, but also respresented a "female." It also played into my theory using the transcendent energy creating opposites. Again, if Zan of Antar's essence created opposites, what if Zan of Antar had a first wife and her essence was transferred? But due to complications, she wasn't created like the other podsters. Her essence was placed inside Liz's mother while Liz was still a fetus. Or, another theory...Zan's first wife was reincarnated thru Liz. Pythagoras taught reincarnation was possible through purification (living an intellectual life.) Now who does remind you of??? Ding...Ding...Ding...You are correct...Liz!

Finally, when you said they tranfered their essences back on Antar (switch male/female..etc.) what exactly did you mean by "transfer"? We talking 'cementing' or what?

By transfer I meant when the Original Royal Four's essences were placed inside the pods.

Thanks for the compliments and your interest in my specs and theories.

Barbara
aka/The Behroness d'Roswell

Ahem :clears throat: Yes you are right, My mistake. But I still think that is way too much of a cooincidence. So my question still stands.

What was Shiela Hubble to Edsedo? How would Shiela be connected to Tess and/or Liz.

AHAH! Tess is the lovechild of Nasedo and Shiela and the original 4th podster died in the leaky pod. Tess is really an imposter and the 4th podster's essence was duplicated (by tic tac) in Liz.

Aw Shoot! That still doesn't explain why Liz looks so much like Shiela. Oh well I gave it a quick try.

Any takers?

Semoi – Welcome! You raise a number of good questions that many of us have wondered about, but I don’t think anyone has an answer – just speculation, and yours is good as any! Though I never thought about Tic Tac being the killer of Nasedo – ummm… We were given the impression that Skins did it, and CW seems to admit she did it when chatting with Iz – to protect Vilandra – but anything is possible given the storyline consistencies (or is that inconsistencies ) this Season!

Behroness quote:
quote: Honestly, I'm giving the writers; but more importantly Jason Katims, the benefit of the doubt. I'm not living in their shoes and don't know what pressures, etc they are having to deal with. Also, remember, several creative people left to pursue other projects. Anyway, if they want Roswell to be the success that I know we all want, I'm sure these concerns will be dealt with.

Though I make snide comments about the lack of consistency, etc, I do agree with you and think JK is an excellent writer. I too give them the benefit of the doubt, and have very high expectations for them to wrap things up by the end of this season, and that Season 3 will be even better.

Qfanny – Thanks for the picture! You look great! Cute guy, too! Knowledge can be a painful thing at times! You are doing a great job… :applause:

Miss LP – We have always thought that the Sheila Hubble/Harding connection was significant – especially given the clues – but Nothing has been brought up about it this season, so I’m hoping it is not a loose end that gets left dangling! OT – I’ve watched the A&E version of P&P so many times my husband thinks I’m a nut case, but than … Love that Mr. Darcy! I love it in “You’ve Got Mail” when Meg R tells her e-mail buddy about the book! I Laugh every time when she uses the book as the clue to who she is when she is supposed to meet him! It is a great book to read when you need a romantic pick-me-up! One of my favorite.

Kylester – Welcome! To “Grace Kel” is to watch a scene in slow-motion, preferably with a jog shuttle so that you can move back and forth looking at every detail, dissecting the details. Grace Kel, a frequent poster here, was the one who started us all doing it often, and so we gave it her name! Hope that helps!

I will be off until late morning, so if we get to the 250th post – please be patient – I will get the new thread up by Noon – I hope!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Kylester3, GraceKel is one of the long-time Liz/Myth posters and most diligent member of the Roswell Bureau of Investigation who, in her tireless quest for clues that would reveal the truth about Roswell the TV Show, succeeded in destroying at least one VCR. She did this by using the technique of Pause,Rewind,Play,Pause over and over--as many of us do , hence, the verb "to Grace Kel." Many of us since then have been heard to moan, "Acck! I just GraceKelled my VCR!" Fortunately, I believe GraceKel's husband got her a new VCR for Christmas.

OK those action figures are so funny. How about Liz's high heels with the uniform? Ha ha ha If I were Shiri I would want them to take a little of my legs. She looks like she is retaining a little water there. hee hee I can't wait to see the others!The Max action figure needs to have a removable shirt. ha ha ha.

I'm not sure if this means anything, but on silverhandprint.com, under the FBI section, the second part of the FBI section begins with a letter to Congressman White. Out of all the names to choose, this is the one you use?

Also interesting, in CW journal on the same website, there is an entry that speaks of Nicholas discovering the power of politics.

Coincidence?????

Did we ever think of the possibility of Sheila Hubble being a skin? Getting close to Hubble because he was a known 'alien hunter' and the skins though perhaps Hubble could lead them to the royal 4 or their protectors? Perhaps Yvonne White is really Sheila Hubble.

Or could TPTB in the writing of S047, just have introduced Yvonne White because in the *real* stories behind the Roswell Crash, there was also a nurse who met with a reporter who claimed to have been present at the autopsies, and this character was just introduced in an effort to mirror the mythology of the *real* crash.

Things that make you go hmmmmmmm.......

{~}:}

It sorta ties into a thought I just had. (and I mean that loosely) Something is fishy about Summer of 47 events. We never find out what happens with Nurse White. I don't think the skins had come yet in '47. I thought they came in '50.
Does anyone know how many aliens there were on the ship based on what we saw in SO47 and what Pierce said in WR?

I am starting to wonder about the Shapeshifter and the creation of the dupes.
1st: The mommagram talked about them knowing their enemies by the evil within. Liz saw that evil in MTTM when she kissed Maxcedo. Something is not right with that shapeshifter, but I digress because that is not my main thought.

The "Antarians" seem like very poor planners. Their leaders spark this civil war and are killed. So the Antarians duplicate their essences and create alien human hybrids twice. One set is suposedly defective but they are desperate so they send them both just in case one set can't succeed. They don't seem to take into account the chance that both might survive and want to come back because according to Lonnie, who (yes I know we can't trust) said, "they want the Royal Four not the Royal Seven...yo" OH wait she also said that they were the only ones who knew about the other set. SCREEECH ::thought process comes to a hault:: AHAH!!! ::engine starts again::
I am now assuming The Antarians on the homefront (Khivar and Nicholas excluded)don't know about the dupes. The dupes were made by whoever created the hybrids (I am assuming on the ship).....the shapeshifters? What could be the real purpose for the dupes?
I am starting to think they were created for an evil purpose and NOT back up. If they are defective they are just a calling card that aliens are there. More of a danger than allies.

OK but still... The Antarians go to all of that trouble to recreate their leaders to come back and free them...BUT they send them away with shifty people (ha ha no pun intended ) who get them here but take off or leave them to be found on the road side or just leave them in the sewers?

My head is I am seeing too many inconsistancies.
I have to step back and re-evaluate all of this.

What do you guys think?....

-------------
"Well.....there it is" (Amadeus)

Nevermind I am sending a PM.

LOST!?!?!?! aaaaaa!! lol anywayz....what?

Did we ever think of the possibility of Sheila Hubble being a skin? Getting close to Hubble because he was a known 'alien hunter' and the skins though perhaps Hubble could lead them to the royal 4 or their protectors? Perhaps Yvonne White is really Sheila Hubble.

I don't think Sheila Hubble was a Skin. They did an Autopsy on her and discovered she was pregnant with a girl. If she was a Skin, even a dead one, wouldn't the coroner's scaple incision "break the seal" on the Husk?? She would've just disintegrated right? Like Courtney did when she broke her own seal. Besides, don't you think a thorough forensic exam would have revealed that little flap of skin on the Husk's back?

I have always wondered why Nasedo, or whatever shapeshifter it was, killed her. While waiting in the car, did she witness something Alien and have to be dealt with?
Did it have something to do with the fetus?
Other than Atherton, she was the only other civilian killed in that fashion, right? The rest were cops and FBI guys. They were all threats, immediate or otherwise - How had Sheila or her baby become a threat?
And if they weren't a threat, was this the first time the SS had killed for another reason? What would that reason be?

Meta - I did like your idea though. It made logical strides towards a motive for why the SS killed her.

I really hope we get a season3 and that it answers A LOT of season1's questions, like mccoy said.

quote:
Jason and Shiri were incredible; but I didn't really understand why Liz and FMax couldn't go to Max and Tess and explain the situation??? Maybe there's something with Tess that made this solution impossible?

I solely agree! . Thank you again for that! Add more as soon as you get a chance please !

---------
"Two heartbeats. One soul."

My guess as to the whole Sheila Hubble thing? One of the shapeshifters were posing as Sheila to either get closer to Hubble to see what he was up to (if this shapeshifter was the other SS, who I think is going to be Surena this might explain Hubble saying he saw fireworks when they kissed) or to get her fetal matter or something to that effect...

When Hubble went into the store, the shapeshifter simply switched and put Sheila's body (which he/she had killed previosly so that he/she could take her form)back in the car, and got the hell outta dodge.

Who knows. I'm saying all of this tongue in cheek because I really have no idea and we've already speculated on this to death and hit the same brick walls we're hitting now!

{~}:}

Yes please, do go on. FM and FL assume that they did not have a complete unit because Tess left. Obvious choice. Could they have tried to replace her. Did FM know about the dupes? (I know.. you are thinking what is with MissLParker and the dupes today?)
FM came back as a last resort. There was no exact science to what he was doing. Like Liz said to him, he had to try it. They were trying to give the world another chance.

You know,... as long as they keep on figuring out that the granolith has time travel capabilites, they can keep trying and we can keep watching! HA HA HA

When Hubble went into the store, the shapeshifter simply switched and put Sheila's body (which he/she had killed previosly so that he/she could take her form)back in the car, and got the hell outta dodge.

Interesting theory. I like the Fireworks reference - good connection! But when Hubble was talking to Max, and he was talking about seeing fireworks when he kissed Sheila, it sounded like that coulda happened months, weeks, or days before the night of their fateful drive. But you're right who knows.

Thread #35 should be up in about 5 minutes!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

It worked and the new thread is up in two parts!

Thanks -
Zero