TABLE OF CONTENTS

Background

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY!

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz's importance to the pod squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember - NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome!

Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection

Consequence of the Connection - the Change?

Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really?

Granolith - How does it fit in?

Destiny - Liz and Max!

Follow Your Heart

Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

Chakras

Einstein's Light Cone

Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV

The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up!

The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things?

The Catalyst - Liz!

Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in?

Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run"

Hero Journey - Liz's Path

Grandma Claudia - the first connection?

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection?

Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars!

Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz?

Skins - What lies below the surface?

Shapeshifters - Are there more than one?

Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation

Mythology!

Dates

Finally - dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research.

In Summary

Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff or THE WB reads this), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!"

A couple of general "rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz - says - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!!

P.S. A note from shapeshifter In coding the page to which this intro is linked I accidentally deleted a bunch of quote marks (so that's what those funny black rectangles were! ).

Here are some images where you can see the connection -
Liz and Max as twin souls - notice how they come together to form the
"swirl" on the orb activated during Sexual Healing. Also - notice the
"Emergency" sign behind them - when they come to gether it reads "MERGE".
The animation is from the alternate ending to Leaving Normal is currently being moved but will be back up again soon Thanks redhawk
The screencap is of the aired ending of Leaving Normal - here you can see a variation of the orb swirl as well.

Check out this

link. for the full gallery of images - please feel free to copy and post any images to explain theories - the gallery is at your disposal. It is a way to keep key Liz/mythology images in one place - ut it exists for you guys to use as a resource.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I watched MITC yesterday and can really relate to how he felt when he was in the elevator 'cause I'm going to Boston & NYC with my daughter Wednesday. I may check from Boston U and NYU, but if not, I hope Reggie, Evid, Meta, GraceKel, Zara, Vihmakass, Starbox, and too many more to mention will keep things on track.

Meanwhile back in CA, my 12-year-old has pointed out that in MITC, since we only see Liz perform her astral projection when she is linked with Isabel, that Isabel may have had the "power," not Liz, but "changed" Liz was more of a "key" (like the crystal to the Granolith?).
Hmmm...maybe Liz was changed before Max came along and that's why he recognized her. Naahhh, that would be totally unromantic.

Edited to say thanks to Zero for starting a new thread. My bad I like the links. Nice touch.

I like that idea, especially as it repeats the "key" concept (pun intended) of Liz as she relates to many things (the granolith (we hope), the 5th element, Max's effectiveness as a leader, Max in general :wink:, balance, etc...)

As for MITC, I would agree that Izzy gave Liz a bit of a jump-start, but, you know, I remember that scene as being one of the most exciting moments in all of Roswell for me -- that and two episodes prior, when Liz kicked that skin across the Crashdown as she was stuck in the kitchen service door! Whether my interpretation proves true or not, those were moments when I squealed with delight to see signs of growth and change; Liz was becoming both spiritually and physically stronger than she had been before!

I still wonder what might have happened in How the Other Half Lives when the Pod Squad tried without success to put a whammy on the gandarium crystals and Tess snips at Liz "You're welcome to try..."

Yeah! Bring her on!

Of course, Liz and Kyle did work together to identify the means of defeating the gandarium... That was a more subtle show of strength, this time mental, rather than physical or spiritual.

I do think Liz is growing tremendously, but I don't think she realizes quite yet the extent of her skills, much less her importance.

Yes, I ramble... Sorry!

Anyway, Shapeshifter, I'm so glad your 12-year-old enjoys watching the show and pondering clues! That's really great. Good catch about the key.

As for your trip, have fun in the big city! Listen for odd clicking sounds in the subway, will you?

Zara

Crazy4Roswell16--I saw the PROMOS tonight they aired right after 7th Heaven so discussion is fair game now!!!LOL!!!

Nemo thanks for the heads up on S of 47 Hal Carver I will have to check it out.

Okay, someone dies. Who? JR? (j/k -- I didn't own a TV when that show was on). Well, we see Max crying, and Tess upset, and Isabel especially. So, I am logically thinking it's Max & Is's earth Mom. I rewatched Toy House and it sure seemed that she 'knew' about Max, so killing her off would have some merit in keeping the members of the I-Know-An-Alien Club to a minimum. I'm not saying it was anything more than an accident, just thinking of keeping the plotholes filled in for the writers.
And then my only other guess would be Alex. Because Colin might be wanting out of the TV genre. I looked hard at the grave scene, and wasn't sure if Alex or Kyle were missing. Nick Wenshler's comedic talent could certainly be utilized in a different venue as well.

Anymore thoughts on Liz's necklace.

Ofcourse my dreamer heart was breaking with that kiss.

Finally Liz's life is falling apart--well it looks like Liz is finally cracking well who wouldn't after having the weight of the world on your shoulders.

I also noticed when she said that about her life she is wearing that jacket that I hate the looks of for some reason--Liz usually looks great in almost everything but don't care for this jacket but since she keeps wearing it I am wondering if there is a clue on it or something---LOL always looking for clues.

I hope that when Max kisses Tess he notices there's no fireworks. I kept thinking about in TLV when Liz confronts Tess about the other kiss and Tess said it wouldn't happen again.... hmph!

Oo! Brainstorm! We see very upset Is who claims she's leaving. And we have Liz who knows the 4 must stick together. So Liz would tell Is about FM, and Is would just have to tell Max about FM.

I think the print looks like Ivy with fruit at the end, maybe strawbarries.

Here is some info on Ivy.
Ivy - Immortality, Friendship, Faithfulness. Because it is an evergreen that clings while climbing, it signifies the need for protection. Since it grows quickly, it also symbolizes regeneration, sensuality and revelry.

Leave it to wonderful Shiri to agree to ware something so ugly to give us a clue.

Ivy easily desribes Liz. I think she begin to ware this jacket after the whole "grow" storyline. So my guess is, when she takes it off, she would have grown and will be ready to take her place next to Max, God knows he's going to need her.

Evid

About the vine jacket - I think it links Liz to the hybridization. Meaning her past-life connection to Max is related to hybridization process in some way.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I too saw the intro and I am glad they are showing Liz yelling her life is falling apart! Especially if she says it after seeing M&T kiss. I am not completely confident that is when she says it (hard to tell because it is quick). I doubt all these things happen in one ep. Just like the HC it is most likely over several eps.

I too wonder if this will spur Liz into revealing her secret at least to Isabel (who is close to Max and may give him clues if she knows). Isabel may also help bring the group together if she knows they need to stay a complete unit. Here’s to hoping and praying!

I also love the way the promo shows all of the alien symbols, implying there is so much to the story we don’t know—and we would surely agree there a lot of unaswered questions, right?

Thanks for any replies....slow day at work, so I want to "do" something

Second, that's a good question. I did a 'find' for "mary" and only got things like "summary"
But the http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/archetypes.htm#bible link, Qfanny and I have a little bit on it. BTW, Zero did all the verbage on the intro, but I did the coding, so if there are any link problems or suggestions with the technicalities, I'm the guilty one.

If there are any specific caps from the promo you would like - just ask! Also I'll see if I can get a cap of the crossword puzzle.

In regards to the promo, I am completely spoiled at this point so I can't participate in any of these conversations. Damn the stupid hiatus! If it hadn't been so long I wouldn't have caved....

Anyway, enjoy your speculations. I'll be able to join back in next week when the episode actually airs!

{~}:}

Sharing In The Groove

Oh and I agree that the jacket is ugly.

What do you guys think of Liz's hair. In the beginning of the season she wore it straight. (I loved it in SO47, the present shots) But now she is wearing it wavy? Any thoughts to that symbolizing anything?

I mentioned the following on the last thread. I notice that the one shot of Tess and Max in the Alien museum and they are thrown back by the alien device, well a light appears above the device and one appears on Tess's forehead. A light does not appear on Max. Is Max thrown back or is he dodging it? What do you think?
could it be that there is something not right about Tess?

About the thought of Liz wearing her hair different...maybe it's to symbolize the change that's she's going through?

And the jackets not THAT bad!! It's not something i would wear....but hey!! Liz parker probably isn't worried about what she's wearing at the moment. You heard her....her life is falling apart. I really believe she said that after she saw Max and tess do the unthinkable. I mean if the love of your life kissed somebody else (who you REALLY REALLY REALLY didn't like) wouldn't your life be falling apart??

Just some thoughts. ~*~Meaghan~*~

EDITED TO SAY: MissLParker, I have always thought there was something not right with tess.

It finally looks like Liz is going to get the air time she deserves. The promo showed a few of the expected storylines, and 2 of them at least had Liz.

I feel horrible for her having to see Max and Tess kiss. And the line about her life falling apart! Poor thing!

I agree with everyone that it's going to become Liz's responsibility to prevent Isabel from leaving. You know Max will try, but Liz's arguments will be 10 times stronger than anything he could think up.

I hope the writers develope a good, long storyline for Liz. I really hate that they haven't focused more on her powers.

I'm interested to see what you guys will come up with after the new episode.

~Aphrodite

TVPooh: The Virgin Mary theory is mine and I will be posting a summery along with a few screen caps to go along with it. Sorry real life calls at the moment but I will try and post it soon.

Evid

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira."

Evid[/B]

great thanks!! Can't wait to read it!! Maybe I cna add more imput from the Goddess class I took my senior year of college.

However, as much as I would love to believe that Isabel was the one using her powers, this is not what is happening in the dialog. Ava insists that Liz can do it, and I think Isabel offering her hand to Liz was more of a comfort. Beside, Isabel tried to contact Max by dreamwalking and couldn't do it. I think with everything that is going on, Liz has definately been altered. It was intentional writing. Everyone there seemed freaked out about Ava's statement, "Liz can do it." I think Michael even gave Liz a double take.

Why was Ava so reluctant to tell Liz. She waited until there was a crisis and Liz had to be told? Why? Is there a danger to Liz?

Anyway, I'll be spending my weekend reloading software to my computer. Fun, fun. I survived my first crash (computer). And my pocketbook has been put in recovery.

Evid - I'm still in love with your Liz as the Virgin Mary theory. I'm glad others saw the same thing as I did in that pic Nemo requested.

Just a few thoughts on promos as spoilers... Once they air on TV, doesn't Zero say they are valid for discussion on this thread. I know we discussed the trailer for the first ep of second season in the middle of September already. We were discussing the new symbols and I had made screen caps of them. I think when Zero is back she'll lay our worries to rest and make some final decisions regarding trailers. If most people on the thread don't even want to discuss them before the airing of the actual show, maybe that is the route we'll have to take in the future.

Well, I saw the promo air with my own eyes this time right after 7th Heaven. So if we're all okay with discussing it for the time being until Zero changes any rules, then here goes.
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The bulky necklace Liz is wearing is rather interesting. My first thought was of our discussion of the coyote. I think it either resembles a wild dog i.e. coyote or wolf or a wild cat. Any thoughts on this?

I've wondered about that too. I wonder if it is that since Max was upset with "Isabel" that he was unconciously blocking her. Isabel took Liz's hand but a short while later she looked at her kind of funny, I wonder if they connected somehow or if she picked up something from Liz. I think Liz got through because regardless of what has happened the Max/Liz connection remains constant. She could have used Isabel's power to connect but it would have been Liz that Max would have sensed.

quote:Why was Ava so reluctant to tell Liz. She waited until there was a crisis and Liz had to be told? Why? Is there a danger to Liz?

She did seem reluctant but what if she wasn't even sure that it would work. Going on the theory that she must have heard about something like this on Antar what if she was reluctant to face the fact that Liz is Max's mate? What if she made the suggestion partly to atone for Zan and partly to see if what she suspected about Liz was true?

Sorry if this is something you've alredy covered.

Zero the new beginning

Everyone else, good night

As much as I would hope the necklace shows a wolf I think it may be a coyote.

As you know I'm sure (but others on the list may not) in spirit the wolf and coyote are cousins but very different in character. In mythology the coyote is known as the trickster, while the wolf represents nobility, sacrifice and often the divine. That's simplifying, of course, but I do think the essence of the coyote and the wolf, in folklore at least, are quite different.

If the necklace is the coyote, why would Liz be wearing it? Really interesting clue. Since these are Native American symbols I'm dying to embrace a theory that Liz has been under the tutelage of River Dog all these months since we've seen him (in the foreground anyway. ------ I do still think that was River Dog drumming his fingers impatiently on the lunch counter at the Crashdown during TSAP... )

So why the coyote? or why the wolf?

I think we can discuss this without being spoilerish. (And, btw, I'm so NOT spoiled it's rediculous. It's like I need to go roll someone's yard to relieve some of this prudent frustration of mine! Of course, I'm so cautious it would have to be my OWN yard, and what's the point of that...)

Zara

If the necklace is indeed a wolf this is what it represents in the druid animal oracle

It brings a strong sense of faithfulness, inner strength and intuition. But the wolf brings learning too. Sometimes you need to cross barriers, to take risks, to go beyond the limited compass of "normal" behavior in order to learn and grow, although crossing these boundaries may seem unattractive, even painful. You need not fear the inner power and strength you feel when you spend time alone. Come to your deepest self and even in the darkest places you will find courage and spiritual companionship.

I think this seems like a place that liz may be and feel in.

i guess i'm thinking of the lines of the movie terminator. if future john did not send reese to present time, he wouldn't have gotten together w/ sarah and conceive the future rebellion leader. and sarah must have told john where he came from, so in the future, when john would meet reese, he know it was his father and needed to send him back to the past/present.

so... what if the story of how the alien race was started by the connection and bond formed from max and liz is the blueprint for what they are now? that could be the reason as to why max recognized liz and loved her this whole time. and that could be why zan felt that he was waiting for someone to come along... someone important... liz.

as someone had mentioned that iz could have the power to boost liz's connection w/ max through astrial projection, mike was present as well as tess. it's was the aliens that was present. i'm thinking in more of the lines of melinda metz's book in that the aliens and the human counterparts connected together w/ their aura to make the power stronger. so.. if the humans connected w/ the alien counterparts, it could be a strong force that could maybe defeat the evil aliens, b/c they wouldn't know how to fight the human/alien combined powers.

i hope that makes sense... i think my last brain cell has gone to sleep.

[b]Evid - I'm still in love with your Liz as the Virgin Mary theory. I'm glad others saw the same thing as I did in that pic Nemo requested.

The bulky necklace Liz is wearing is rather interesting. My first thought was of our discussion of the coyote. I think it either resembles a wild dog i.e. coyote or wolf or a wild cat. Any thoughts on this?

[/B]

redhawk: I'm happy to hear you like my theory. Do you have any new animations in the making? I get so excited when you post them, they are even more entertaining then show at times and I always find the perfect song to go with them.

I was thinking that the necklace could be a Tribal Necklace and with a wolf head made out of leather. The head is far to large for it to be a coyote. In art you almost always see the entire body of the coyote and just the head and face of the wolf. The wolf has such strength in it's face that the artest will center on capturing that strength. If you haven't guessed yet, I'm proud to say I'm a New Mexico artest from the Southwest, this stuff is right up my alley.

Evid

Hibiscus, yes, that's what I was thinking--that it would be Is's power but Liz's connection to Max.

And Redhawk, I tried blowing up and lightening the necklace, but it still doesn't get clear--there's four silver bead-like things in the center.

quote:Originally posted by Zara:
...btw, I'm so NOT spoiled it's ridiculous. It's like I need to go roll someone's yard to relieve some of this prudent frustration of mine! Of course, I'm so cautious it would have to be my OWN yard, and what's the point of that...) ... Zara, you're so funny!

quote:Originally posted by peej:
Hi
Wouldn’t it be great if shiri got the liz myth folder in time before the end of the season and somehow started to incorporate some stuff that relates to the character and the story line? Example the wolf (necklace) knowing that some of us would notice...peej, I think that's entirely possible. In fact I'm just about sure she must at least know we would be looking at it closely. Maybe she's teasing us? It sort of looks like one of those "medicine" herb bags.

And emjay, yes! If Is did at least boost Liz's energy, it would be like in the books!

And about that jacket: she had it on in the Sean/Max scene too. It's not some sort of Virgin Mary plant symbol, is it?

When I heard that someone had compared Liz to the Virgin Mary, I immediately thought of the Wedding at Cana. Jesus performed his first miracle there at the urging of his mother. Jesus, being the obedient Son, did what his mother asked by helping the wedding couple out. She told the servants to do what Jesus told them to, thus water turned to wine. In this way, Mary essentially spurred his public life. On a more basic level, Liz did the same thing. She was the catalyst for Max's life as an exposed alien. While she wasn't his first healing (think bird with broken wing), she was his first public human healing, his first "miracle", if you will.

I have a feeling this was already discussed, but I wanted to post it and get it off my chest! Evid, could you let me know what else was discussed on the topic? I don't want to harass you into posting , but I am not above another hug o' war!!

Virgin Mary theory is awesome!!! love it.

I begin to compare Liz and Mary when I saw the Immaculate Heart of Mary on Liz's PJ bottoms on Morning After.

The Immaculate Heart promises salvation to those who embrace it. God wishes to establish world devotion through the Immaculate Heart. If we follow his wishes many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The heart is covered with thorns because Mary suffered in order to save are souls through Jesus Christ. Men pierced it because they failed to search and seek out the goodness of man-kind, they shut out God's love.

Now we all know that Liz has had her share of suffering. Liz did what was asked of her in order to save the world. Mary also was asked to save the world by giving birth to our Savior. Both did so because of their love for humanity. They were both humble women who lived by God's laws. They gave their consent and associated them selfs with the salvation of mankind.

Now how does Liz as Mary connect to Max?
I look at Max as someone who is divine because of his powers to heal. But does he possess human nature? Yes, but why? Because he has learned to become human by watching Liz and how she deals with life. As did Jesus Christ, his first teacher being Mary his mother. Max looks to Liz for guidance as a son would his mother. But why Liz?
I think Max sees Liz as someone that people love unconditionally because she herself gives unconditional love. Liz is someone who will not reject him for who or what he is.
Max has not learned how to return that unconditional love. He turns away from the belief that their could be a greater power. He does not feel that he is in need of redemption. This is why Max gives up and feels hopeless. He will follow blindly because he does not believe that he can lead himself. If he does not have faith in himself how can he have faith in others. Until he does Max will continue to pierce Liz's heart.

I have alot more to go along with this by comparing Mary/Liz and Eve/Tess but I will save that for another post. After watching the promo Max seems to be turning to Eve and we all know how that story played out. However, Mary managed to help save us in the end, as will Liz.

Sorry this was so long.

This pic says, Our Lady of all Nations.

For those of you who are Christians, Have Happy Easter.

Evid

this give me many (crazy) theories....
---------
sry.gram.

As for the "jacket": it's a very nice example of 18th Century women's clothing. It would go over a chemise (a long sleeved, white slip), with a long skirt. Even the pattern in the material is correct.
Which just goes to show how adorable she is, no matter when!

Happy Easter to all concerned, also!

Ummm. As a practicing Protestant (Presbyterian, to be more specific), we don't look to anyone but God (in His three Manifestations) for salvation. Mary was a nice, normal gal, who got put into a Situation. Kind of like Tess, actually.

There's problems with the Liz as Mary analogy. For one thing, Max isn't God. He said so himself, and Liz reminded him of that. Jesus was pushed into his Work by Mary.

Also, there's supposed to be a romance between Max and Liz...

Off to Choir practice...

I was thinking at the end of Max to the Max how when Liz is saying, "They've got Max." Isabel shoves Liz into the arms of Michael and they embrace. They have had so many difference throughout season one, I was thinking how powerful that scene was for both characters. Now, I'm no polarist, but I do feel that Michael considers Liz to be part of his extended family, which could explain why Liz's role as leader is so apparant in TWR... It's just real nice to see two characters learn to get a long and trust one another.

Just wanted to pop in and say I think it's absolutely wonderful/hilarious that you have managed to rationalize what I think is one of the worst things to have happened to Liz this year.

THE JACKET!

That thing is horrible. But somehow ya'll managed to make it justifiable to Liz's overall character! That's amazing!

Keep up the good mything. I love lurking here!

Ummm. As a practicing Protestant (Presbyterian, to be more specific), we don't look to anyone but God (in His three Manifestations) for salvation. Mary was a nice, normal gal, who got put into a Situation. Kind of like Tess, actually.

I agree that Mary was a nice normal girl but she was chosen, not put into a situation. She could have chosen to say no to Angel Gabriel, just as Liz could have chosen to say no to FMax. Now as for Tess, just because she had a hard childhood it still remains her choice what she does with her life. As she proved by leaving Roswell. Everyone plays an important roll in this world. It's the rolls you chose that make you the person you are. As for God being the only salvation, again I agree. I never ment that Mary was the salvation, only that she played a part and helping that salvation come about. As did Liz.

There's problems with the Liz as Mary analogy. For one thing, Max isn't God. He said so himself, and Liz reminded him of that. Jesus was pushed into his Work by Mary.

I'm sorry if I compared Max to God. NO MAX IS NOT GOD. I only ment that he has a Godly gift of healing, he is not your normal human. As you stated, Liz was the one to point this out and help guide Max to do the right thing. As for Jesus being puched by Mary. I can only share what I as a Catholic have been taught. Jesus was never puched to do Gods work. It was within his holy spirit to do so. But Jesus was human in body and mind. He had to be in order for him to become are humen Savior. As a humen his humen mother helped nuture him to do God's work.

Also, there's supposed to be a romance between Max and Liz...

Reggie you are tough, I love it.
Oh come on I'm a Dreamer of course Max and Liz have a romance. But who do men tend to make their wifes? Someone who reminds them of their mother. Who will love them forever. Liz is the girl you take home to mom and who you want to have your children. Oh yes their is a romance between Max and Liz, a life long romance and behond.

Reggie I'm really not trying to make this into a Catholic analogy. I'm only trying to figure out where the writers are taking this, it's their beliefs that are in question not us as posters.

Evid

[b]There's problems with the Liz as Mary analogy. For one thing, Max isn't God. He said so himself, and Liz reminded him of that. Jesus was pushed into his Work by Mary.

I'm sorry if I compared Max to God. NO MAX IS NOT GOD. I only ment that he has a Godly gift of healing, he is not your normal human. As you stated, Liz was the one to point this out and help guide Max to do the right thing. As for Jesus being puched by Mary. I can only share what I as a Catholic have been taught. Jesus was never puched to do Gods work. It was within his holy spirit to do so. But Jesus was human in body and mind. He had to be in order for him to become are humen Savior. As a humen his humen mother helped nuture him to do God's work.

Also, there's supposed to be a romance between Max and Liz...

Reggie you are tough, I love it.
Oh come on I'm a Dreamer of course Max and Liz have a romance. But who do men tend to make their wifes? Someone who reminds them of their mother. Who will love them forever. Liz is the girl you take home to mom and who you want to have your children. Oh yes their is a romance between Max and Liz, a life long romance and behond.

Reggie I'm really not trying to make this into a Catholic analogy. I'm only trying to figure out where the writers are taking this, it's their beliefs that are in question not us as posters.

Evid

Well, it's either this or go stir crazy...
Gabriel didn't ask Mary anything. He told her she was already "chosen", and who the Father was. Choice? No, she would have agreed if asked; of course. But she wasn't asked.

Neither was Tess. "Harding" must have told her when she was young that she was supposed to give herself to this guy she didn't know, and be his for her entire life. Again, she probably would have agreed to it, but noone asked her to. She seems to be able to get away from the Max&Tess part, but FMax said that she was still stuck with the save-the-world part.

As for Mary pushing Jesus, I'll cite John 2:4 & 5. You can almost hear it: "But Mommmm..."

Men being interested in momen that resemble their mother? One word: shudder. I'm 41, and single. I've been interested in a number of women, over the years, and none of them have been anything like my mother. Granted, I'm not likely to ever find a woman that'll have me, but I'd rather die alone that with someone like that.

I was thinking at the end of Max to the Max how when Liz is saying, "They've got Max." Isabel shoves Liz into the arms of Michael and they embrace. They have had so many difference throughout season one, I was thinking how powerful that scene was for both characters. Now, I'm no polarist, but I do feel that Michael considers Liz to be part of his extended family, which could explain why Liz's role as leader is so apparant in TWR... It's just real nice to see two characters learn to get a long and trust one another.

I also think this act of Isabel’s shows how she has accepted Liz as part of the group. She resisted for a long time, fearing that she would lose Max (285 S), but she also saw when Liz has needed someone and propelled them to Liz (ex: LN, MTTM). I think this shows how Isabel views Liz as important, just like us!

Reggie: Sorry I was driving you crazy. Really I didn't mean to center you out, I thought it was fun debating with you. I guess we will just have to pull out the we agree to disagree. I think everyone interprets the Bible differently, otherwise their wouldn't be so many different religions in the Christian faith alone. But isn't that what makes this country wonderful, the freedom to chose.
So your still single? I have a friend that would be perfect for you. So far I have 4 marriages to my credit, well they helped a little, they have all been happily married for over 10 years.

Alexis & Qfanny: I agree that Iz and Michael both seem to see something special in Liz. Remember on WO when Iz reached out to hold Liz because Max just stood there. Liz took a step back from her and made it clear that she didn't want to be consoled. I had to defend Liz on this one up down the bourd. Everyone really gives Liz a hard time when she acts like a normal teen, no other character get's the bashing that are poor Liz does, not even Tess. I think she pulled away because she thought Iz might have a vision of TEOTW events. My guess is she knows more about vision control then she lets on. Maria knows that Liz has them around Max. Remember her line on AN, "So did you get a vision?, I knew it."

Evid

So your still single? I have a friend that would be perfect for you. So far I have 4 marriages to my credit, well they helped a little, they have all been happily married for over 10 years.

If I may quote Michael, in one of his better moments, "Bring it on!"
The last person who tried to set me up with a friend, found out later that the friend's previous boyfriend was, ahem, a girl. It didn't work out; although we did have something in common: we both prefer women. <sigh> <ROTFL>
I'll PM you with details.

Evid, I always thought that Liz backed away from Isabel like a defense mechanism.(It is like she saying don't touch me until I know what is going on.) She wasn't sure of the situation and she had to accertain it right away. Liz has acted this many times. In the Pilot with Max, she wants a logical explantion for his cells, In EOTW FM has to prove to her why he could travel through time. There are more but I think you get the idea. Liz controls her enviroment by seeking the logical in it. I think that is why she has such a hard time having control with Max. She can't explain that in terms of why.

Now that I've talked to someone and seen the promo - I can start pulling some threads out of my mysterious LA adventure. I promise not to reveal any spoilers.

First thread -
Qfanny was present during the funeral shooting

Second thread -
I have one of those flowers used in this part of the show in my house

That's it for now, sorry....

I posted this recently on the Cherishers thread and some people over there (if you're reading this you guys, I did it!) encouraged me to come on over here and post it for all of you and see what you made of it. It's my 5 reasons for liking Liz, and I think it kind of demonstrates why she would make such a wonderful Queen for Max - and that it is no accident how central she has always been to the group. Anyway, I hope you like them. Remember, I wrote this simply in the spirit of Liz-fandom, not specifically thinking 'Liz-Myth', but they still mostly fit.

5 Reasons Why I Love Liz
1) Liz is so strong, and so selfless. Of all our beloved characters she is the one who will do what needs to be done. She keeps all the burden on herself and never complains. I could list a million examples but of course EOTW is the main one, and that heart-breaking moment in Destiny. Not only does she give up her happiness, her peace of mind, for the sake of others - but she expects no comeback in return. She has not shared her secret with anyone, even telling Kyle only the barest minimum. She could have confided in one of her friends, provided she could trust their secrecy, and have gotten the recognition for her pains that she deserves - but no.

2) Liz is by far the smartest of them all. Without her, they would be lost. She figured out about the energy field in WO; she worked out how to kill the crystals in HC; and, not forgetting, she was smart enough to think of taking cells from Max's pencil and testing them under the microscope in the first place, way back in the Pilot. She will always be the one that really thinks things through. She keeps her head, although we all wish that sometime, maybe soon, she will learn to follow her heart.

3) Liz respects the wishes of others, and their right to their privacy. She could have so easily questioned Max on that night in Destiny, when she saw those flashes of all that had happened to him. She could have asked him about it, tried to make him talk - but she saw, from only the horrified and hurt look in his eyes, that he did not even want her to know as much as she did. So she kept quiet. And to this day, as well as never asking him about it, she has never told anyone that she even saw those flashes at all.

4) Liz is generous towards people's faults. (And boy is she ever going to need to be). She has every reason to hate Tess - she has the right to snipe a little, or maybe rant to Maria and Alex about how much Tess has screwed up her life - but she doesn't. The only time she ever dissed Tess, that time in Whittacker's office, she was laughing. And in TLV, when Max kissed Tess under the control of the mindwarp, she forgave him almost instantly. A lesser person may have been unable to, despite his extenuating circumstances. But Liz did.

5) Liz's loyalty is firm to the end. She cannot give up on Max, even though she fears she can never have him. In EOTW, she says "I'll always be alone," meaning that no other can take his place. That she would feel as if she were betraying him all over again. And although it is hard, even painful for her to be around him right now (isn't it true that 9 times out of 10 we avoid someone we are having difficulties with?) she recognises that the group needs her, and she sticks with it, despite the trouble it causes her.

Sorry for the ramble, I was acting on orders. But I think they all show Liz's 'Queenly' qualities, and I'm sure they're not a coincidence.

I all the theories and I can't believe it, you are all so clever to think of these things.

Quote by Alexis
quote:I also think this act of Isabel’s shows how she has accepted Liz as part of the group. She resisted for a long time, fearing that she would lose Max (285 S), but she also saw when Liz has needed someone and propelled them to Liz (ex: LN, MTTM). I think this shows how Isabel views Liz as important, just like us!

MissLParker totally agree with Liz backing away as a defense mechanism. I must say though Alexis that I've found Iz's interaction with Liz to be very conflicting. During extreme situations she sympathises with her, take SH for example, other times, I've found myself wondering if she actually dislikes her eg, when she dream walked her and said "Even her dreams are boring" or something to that effect.

Xenutia I mentioned on the cherishing thread that Max and Liz seem to have similar qualities, thanks for posting the reasons for loving Liz here as well.

PS this is MissLParker. I am at my sis-in-laws house and this is her user name. I can't get to my password they are all in my gator account.

Also COMPLETELY OT!! i found a place that has video covers so you can organize your videos of roswell (if you have them) with neato covers!! they're totally awesome.

And in the past few months I've come to realize, that that is exactly what he has done in Season 2. I visit the Spoiler boards a lot, and there was a lot of discussion about how the character of Liz was so terribly underused in the first part of the season. I absolutely agree. But what I didn't realize 'till just lately, was that (in my opinion) in fact Liz is the protagonist, the hero of Roswell. Even given what has been thrown at her this year, she has remained true - to her heart, to her friends and the love of her life (Max).

Even though most of the publicity has been for Jason Behr (hey, I'm not complaining, I love Max) I really believe that the story of Roswell is seen/filtered through Liz Parker's eyes. In a way, we care for Max because we see him through Liz' eyes.

And I have come to realize that all the hero qualities - love, sacrifice, nobility of character are embodied in the human Liz Parker. And that she is Max's balance, she keeps him centered.

I'm so surprised that at the end of all of this, I care about all of these characters (except Tess) because I, as a viewer, see them through Liz Parker's generous eyes.

(I don't trust Tess because Liz has never trusted her, said Tess scared her. That's good enough for me. Anybody trying to break up my soulmates are definitely gonna be suspect for the long term!!)

See what happens when Liz Mythers start ramblin' on about Liz...

(edited because I am spelling impaired...)

Actually, I've always seen Isabelle as being scared. She's scared to let people in and see who she really is, she's scared to be different, she's scared to lose Max and Michael, she's scared to lose her family, she's scared to let new people in, and of course she's scared of the unknown.

The way that Isabelle reacts to her inner fear is to act out in a "high and mighty" manner. She covers her fear with self confidence, which I really don't think she has much of. I think she is just as, if not more, insecure as the rest of them.

I personally think Isabelle's relationships to the other characters embodies this fear. To talk specifically about Liz, I always thought in season one that Liz scared Isabelle. On so many levels....

1) Liz knew the truth and had their lives in her hands
2) She accepted Max for who he was. This is something Isabelle says is scared will never happen to her, but I always kind of thought she was more scared to let someone in. Case in point: her relationship to Alex. Even after he tries to convince her that he accepts her for who she is, she still pushes him away.
3) Isabelle is scared that Liz will take Max away from her.
4) Isabelle is scared to find out the truth about who they really are. She is the one, out of the three of them who is most content with her human life.

Anyhow, I can go on for hours...but I always interpreted the scene between Isabelle and liz in wipe out where Iz reaches for her...as Isabelle being just as scared as Liz because Both their parents are gone, and this is just as frightening to Isabelle as it is to Liz. I think Isabelle needed comfort at that time probably more than Liz did. Not only was Isabelle scared spitless that her parents had disappeared, but she felt guilty on top of that because she felt it was their fault.

Now, what I find very interesting is the fact that Isabelle was always the least reluctant to find out the truth about where they came from . Is it possible that buried somewhere within her subconscious she 'remembered' about Vilondra and didn't want to face it?

Personally, I was always disappointed that they never devloped the Isabelle / Liz / Maria friendships further, because I think there was a lot of potential for Isabelle to grow because of her interaction with the other girls.

But, I'm not going to go there. It's late and I'm tired. I probably could've developed this psycho-analysis of Isabelle much better, especially in regards to her relationship with Liz, but I'm just too tired.

So have a lovely evening, everyone.

{~}:}

I haven't read all the thread yet so I don't know if anyone else pointed this out, but the pattern on the jacket looks an awful lot like the pattern of Liz's robe in ITW.

Also, re: the rosary-type beads on the sun mirror on Liz's wall. They appear in Missing, the ep in which Max first enters her room, and they disappear in EOTW, when Liz makes Max think she's lost her virginity. The mirror is only visible in WO & MTD after that; both times it is beadless Evid?
~Tas

I've been a lurker for a while on this thread but I hardly ever post though. I was just wondering how of you guys make a binder for Shiri about the her character's importance to the alien Mythology. I was at the shiri Appleby board and someone (hooked) posted pictures of her, and she was holding that binder someone made. It looks nice, I was wondering what you include, if you could post the pictures you included the cover picture looks so good.

thanks

volleytwin

In BD, when Michael uses the V symbol/Aries to navigate the symbols of the cave map, he points to the broken oval with the broken circle in the centre (you all know which one I mean!). He says that's the symbol that Nasedo left them, which it isn't--he left the whirlwind swirl. However, the physical location of the broken oval symbol is at the library. Now, Tess went to the library to get the Destiny book, the cover of which sports the broken oval symbol. The other symbol Michael located was the four-square, which represented the pods in the pod chamber. Both the library and the pod chamber had a silver handprint which allowed for access to the important item. Now, what I thought was, what if ALL of those locations in Roswell that correspond to the symbols on the cave map have a silver handprint associated with them,which hides some item that holds information for the podsters? Wouldn't that be a phenomenal way of leaving them the necessary information?

anyone?
~Tas

Metaphysicalgrl--in 285S when Liz asks Isabel who she envies---I was quietly answering for her ---YOU LIZ--I think she envies that Liz is a NORMAL GIRL(something Isabel wishes she were) and I think being alien makes her feel freakish and that she will never find what Max and Liz have or at least had---and fear of being ALONE is a big concern for Isabel too I think.

LParkerfan--I thought the reason Liz backed away from Isabel in Wipeout was the same reason when Max offered her a hand to jump in his window in EOTW eppy Liz said "I can do it"---she was afraid that both of them might have FLASHES of what really was going on with FUTUREMAX and the fake sleeping with Kyle.

It certainly could refer to her change in destiny, but for some reason I keep thinking that it has to do with Max's perception of Liz. As far as he knows, she slept with Kyle. It will be interesting to note whether it reappears after Max knows the truth (yes, I'm operating on faith here! ).
~Tas

Evid--quite a lot of info you have gathered on the VIRGIN MARY info.

Evid[/B]

Hello!

I'm new to the boards, and was reading this thread and got a little (okay, a lot) confused --- can someone explain to me what "Virgin Mary Theory" is and how it relates to Liz?

I would really appreciate, especially seeing as I can be a little slow on the uptake

Thanks,
Katie

I totally agree with you. It's a shame that they don't have time to explore these issues with the increased sci-fi storylines. I thought it was interesting in ARCC that Isabel spoke about the toll the last year has taken on their human sides. Given that she has distanced herself from Alex and doesn't have a close friendship with Liz or Maria, she's missing out on opportunities to interact with humans who know her secret and still care about her. She could learn a lot from interacting with Liz, who I believe demonstrates some of the best human qualities. Instead, Isabel is listening to her enemies telling her about Vilondra and seeking comfort in all the wrong places. That is a very dangerous combination.

BTW, it's nice to see you all again, I haven't posted in a while, because I have nothing to add, you all are so far ahead of me, I can only read and be awed by what you all have discovered. Thanks for a great thread!!!

Tasyfa—I have had this thought too. The cave map shows various locations in Roswell. Why haven’t the Podsters looked at these? There might not be different items (like the Destiny book) but maybe there is information at the other locations!

When I see the contrast between Isabel and Lonnie it really makes me wonder what Vilandra was like. I wonder if Max kept Isabel from telling their Mom in TH to protect her from possibly losing her mother.
I don't know that is OT.

I really wish they would remember all of the clues they found in season 1. Ugh and UGH!

You guys and the jacket. I personally like it and complimented Shiri on it once. I think that one of the main reason it keeps coming up in episodes is because SHE likes it so much. And she's is often very cold on the set.

Dayneen--The Liz"s Importance to the Alien Mythology notebook that Shiri had that night was a joined project between QFanny, BehrsVenus and I. BehrsVenus and I gave it to her that night. She was quite happy to receive it.

I, personally, would love to see a real friendship bloom between Isabel and Liz and I am hoping still that it will. They are very similar internally, I think, but they simply present themselves to the world at large as very different.

Both Liz and Isabel need control in their lives and it often reflects in their apperence. All thought personally, I love Liz's hair all wavy and messy. It makes her look more mature rather than childlike. But that's my opinion.

I also think that Liz and Michael have a special bond. That when Max isn't around, like in MTTM and TWR, she turns to Michael for support and even a bit of leadership. She expected him to lead the mission to the White Room, no one else.

As much as I like the character of Tess for several reasons which I won't get into, Liz fits the other Royal Three so much better than Tess does. She pulls out the best in them, Isabel in LN for example when she agrees to work at the Crashdown in Liz's place. And Michael in Missing when she gives him so much hope regarding trusting her. But Michael pushes against those he trusts the hardest. And I see him doing that to M/I/L more than anyone else.

I am a big fan of the Liz as the True Queen and Tess as her main Lady-in-waiting. *ducking as QFanny tells me that Liz is not an alien. Love you, girl!*

Okay, I've gone off on this really long post about this....sorry. I wasn't planning on it. I was just going to relurk and then start posting again, but oh, well. I love doing character analysis.

BTW, anyone going to the Fan Forum party from this thread?

About Isabel & Liz
You've all forgotten something. Liz loves Max, and Max is Isabel's brother. There's an ick! factor there.

Liz
I had a rant going several threads ago, to the effect that it was the Alien Mythology's importance to Liz that was interesting. I also said that the show was about Liz, and the aliens she found around her. Not so much about the aliens, and the humans they lived among.

Tess
Would you guys (gals) give it a rest?!? Tess was brought up to believe that Max was her rightful husband, that he loved her, and (perhaps with a gentle reminder or two) he would come to her. Well, she was disappointed.

Since then, she's behaved herself. She supports Max, and believes in him completely; but she has been taking an interest in Kyle as far as romance goes. Liz had to work at getting Tess together with Max, remember?
So cut the poor orphan kid some slack.

I found it interesting that it was Isabel who caved in 285S and said "what do you want to know" when Liz said "they needed to know everything.

I loved Liz in that epi!

I loved Liz in that epi!

ITA! I love it when Liz stands up for herself and really takes charge. But sometimes she cares so much about those that she loves, and catering to their needs, that she forgets that her needs are just as important.

Basically, girl needs to stand up to Max when he gets all snippy with her!

I wrote an acknowledgement and bought a binder. I think Behrsvenus and CharmedKittn gave it a more colorful binder with the title on it. I am so glad they did, because I as not able to give it to Shiri, even though I got to see her work.

I don't remember exactly what I said, and since my hard drived crashed I won't be able to find it, but it was a nice tribute to Shiri's job and what she brings to the Liz character.

I can't tell you how sorry I am I couldn't be there at the same time. But if she read the acknowledgement, it was like we were all there. I gave credit to many, many people. Even people that didn't notify me they wanted to be included.

I can't tell you how sorry I am I couldn't be there at the same time. But if she read the acknowledgement, it was like we were all there

Hi
I'm the one that posted the picture of Liz with the book. Charmedkitten posted that she gave the book so I come over here to read more about it. I didn't notice the title of the binder until I scanned the picture on my computer and then I was so excited! I have only read your thread a few times but I really like it. I like to disect stories and find hidden meanings. I spend most of my time on the Over Thirty and Obsessed thread though.

Qfanny, weren't you at the LA gathering? I was there and I thought I heard your name a couple times for winning bids.

If you would like a copy of some of these pictures I would be glad to send it to you.

Tess
Would you guys (gals) give it a rest?!? Tess was brought up to believe that Max was her rightful husband, that he loved her, and (perhaps with a gentle reminder or two) he would come to her. Well, she was disappointed.

Since then, she's behaved herself. She supports Max, and believes in him completely; but she has been taking an interest in Kyle as far as romance goes. Liz had to work at getting Tess together with Max, remember?
So cut the poor orphan kid some slack.[/B]

Reggie--Umm..I'm rather confused as to why you said "ick" to a Liz and Isabel friendship? Wouldn't that make sense? I doubt that many posters who agreed to this idea were talking about a romantic relationship, unless I just happened to miss that comment.

But I do agree with you on Tess factor. She has changed and she should be given some slack but I also agree that her character this season and last season do not match. But I enjoy the change because I see Emilie more at home in her character, espcially since it is such a departure from her in reality.

The Rune NOD
Rune of Karma and Rune of the Norn, goddess of destiny. Rune of karmic debts (the Norn SKULD). Rune of karmic law, of karmic need. Divine justice that balances. "Hate" in the song refers to unresolved karma. Nod helps to master you karma, after you have accepted it. NOD symbolized the appearance out of the infinite, out of the undefined...

The Rune EH
Rune of cosmic union, which transcends the 16 Runes of the zodiac, or the octagon with its polarities. It is the Rune of ideal love, of twin souls, of soul mates. Two in one, Soul and cosmic. God and man. Uses: Connects two lives, brings from the Two to the One. Helps find the soul mate. Brings together soul twins. Brings success and increase.

The Rune GIBOR
Rune of the wheel of life, of union of the god and the world, of Creator and Created. Uses: GIBOR harmonizes the relations of twin souls, unifies the energies of the YOU and I in a cosmic context, both reaching into the common universe, in a true cosmic wedding. Leads to cosmic consciousness, vision of God, unio mystica, the deepest mysteries of the universe."

If you would like a copy of some of these pictures I would be glad to send it to you.

Hooked - thank you so much for posting the picture. It really means a lot to me. It's like I was really there because I can see what a good mood Shiri was in when it was given to her. Please email me the jpeg to nimedeus@aol.com ...

I was at the LA party and I did win two auction items. The first was Courtney's skins. The second was a Roswell sweatshirt (the warmest I have ever owned btw). I had a wonderful time. I didn't mingle as much as I should have, but I did met some very nice people like Olderfan, LisaBHam, MyrnaLynne and some others at the party. I had already met many of my BBB friends and MOB sisters. It was a blast. I am trying to figure out how I can go in August again.

I do agree that the Tess character has changed a lot over this season. But, I cannot forget how bizarre her behavior was in those first 6 episodes introducing her last season. We have really seen a gamit of possiblities to Tess's personality. I think her behavior is uneven and unpredictable within the entire Roswell canon.

Her current role has her as a "normal" teenage alien/girl. Thus trying to win us over as our favorite Martian. We (as humans) have an easier time relating to her current personality. And I think that could be why you say, "Emilie is more at home." Watching Tess isn't the eye burning, spoon bending, anxiousness anymore. So we are more at home. I dunno. If I was playing the Tess character, those first 6 episodes would definately be more fun than these last ones for me. Tess is growning stale in my book.

Tess is always a contraversal topic, and there is probably no good reason for any of it.

Which is why I look to Liz in how to treat her. Liz treats her as part of Max's future. We have to accept Tess, and like Liz, I am not necessarily happy being stuck with her, but I can accept her because Liz sacrificed so much.

I wrote an acknowledgement and bought a binder. I think Behrsvenus and CharmedKittn gave it a more colorful binder with the title on it. I am so glad they did, because I as not able to give it to Shiri, even though I got to see her work.----

This was very cute/nice/beautifull from you and others.
(now Iam without words and gram.)Im just can say I like you,I like you, I likeyou...

and then runes:
(up are runes backward and down are in right position.) http://www.geocities.com/Vihmakass/runes.html
Exactly same? Do you see it?
---------------
sry.

I was just stating that I think that Emilie is more at home in this seasons character of Tess since they have presented her as more human.

Honestly, I like the fact that I don't know what to think about Tess. It makes it more interesting. I honestly don't know if she will turn out "good" or "evil." But I do believe that living at the Valenti's home has given her more of a human outlook on life. But is it enough to change living with Harding? I don't know.

This is the most interesting angle Tess has right now. The only thing more interesting would be if she and Kyle developmented into a hot and heavy relationship. What is Tess's hook right now?

Liz has a bigger, more important connection to Max as she knows what the granolith is.

Also, guys, check out the new poll on crashdown.com . The question is, "Liz is important to the aliens because...." I think this poll is my favorite this season!

wow Vihmakass that's so interesting! You're right it is exactly the same. Hmm I bet somehow it is important to Liz and to the show. Racking my brain to figure out what...

About Ava telling Liz she was changed--there may be some consequences to this, if you remember, Ava looked a little disturbed when Liz first told her that Max "brought her back", and Ava seemed very reluctant to say anything beyond "Liz can do it"...in the cut scene, Ava tells Liz that the Dupe's protector told Zan about healing humans and how it would change them, and that Zan "took it as a warning" and never used his powers to save a human. So maybe whatever the protector told him made it seem like there would be negative consequences for the hybrid and the human??

Isabel and Liz-- I agree that Liz is-or at least used to be- everything Isabel wants to be, i.e. a normal girl (as in human, no destiny, no planet full of people waiting for you to save them, etc) I think Isabel resents Liz's relationship with Max. I can't really see anyone with Isabel's personality being friends with someone like Liz in rl...but this isn't rl so...

The necklace--I also thought Liz's promo necklace was a medicine bag.

When Liz is telling Maria "My life is falling apart!" Who was the person coming up in the background?? Michael maybe?

The dreaded Tess debate--I have shifted back and forth on this, S1 Tess was definitly creepy in a heebie jeebie kind of way. Now she seems to be finding her stride, her place in the group and she isn't creepy anymore. But, and lemme tell ya, this is a big ole BUT, either TPTB are trying make Tess out to A. be evil, or B. be controlled by someone evil (like Nicholas, the Dupes, Khivar...)OR there are major, huge, glaring CHADs to the extent that the writers would have to be mentally impaired or extremely cracked out of their minds to think that any intelligent viewer would over look them.

As for getting off the Great Tess Debate already...in case you didn't know, the T/L/M triangle is the storyline this season. So...
its either see it for the lame 90210 story that it is, or pretend that there actually is some sort of reasonable plot line going on. I choose to delude myself, thank you very much.

Anyway, best route on the Tess thing is to agree to disagree. Some will always hate her, some will always defend her, and I will always be my Sybil little self and shift back and forth.

Val

Check it out. Y'all will love it. It talks about how Roswell has changed and isn't the story that we fell in love with. It's no longer about a boy saving the love of is life and changing the world that they lived in. It's really cute. read it!!

TESS - go figure. (as if we aren't trying)

As for Liz's necklace, I suppose it could be a medicine bag, but IMO it would have to be one shaped like a canine head...
-- No meanness intended -- I just see an animal when I look at it. The screen cap of Liz wearing the necklace in question is my current desktop background, so I'm pondering it a good bit lately.

Vihmakass, your rune information is fascinating!

Zara

I'm still so excited to see Shiri holding the Liz Myth folder. Thank you Qfanny and others.

The subject of Tess is still a mystery to me. There are such huge glaring differences between S1 and S2 Tess. The jury is still out and will probably be out for awhile.

And I know this animation has nothing to do with Liz Myth, except that it is my favorite Roswell scene of all. enjoy...
What's so great about normal?

How much longer 'til a new ep? ugh. EAS is getting to me.

quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
...There's problems with the Liz as Mary analogy. For one thing, Max isn't God. He said so himself, [i]and Liz reminded him of that.[/i..."Max as God" is not to be confused with "Max is God." I can recall many Protestant sermons on topics such as "Joseph as a type of Christ" which described the life and sacrifices of Joseph as being precursors to that of Jesus.

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
New Subject!

I was thinking at the end of Max to the Max how when Liz is saying, "They've got Max." Isabel shoves Liz into the arms of Michael and they embrace. They have had so many difference throughout season one, I was thinking how powerful that scene was for both characters...That scene always troubled me--I can't watch it without wondering if Katie (not Isabel) pushed Shiri (not Liz) into "Michael"'s arms because he was supposed to comfort her spontaneously and Brendan & Shiri were about to space out that part. I guess I just can't see why Isabel would do that rather than hug Liz herself if Michael didn't and Isabel thought Liz needed hugging.

quote:Originally posted by karma police:
...THE JACKET! That thing is horrible...But I like the jacket on her!

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
...was present during the funeral shooting
...I have one of those flowers used in this part of the show in my house...Qfanny, you are such a tease!!!

quote:Originally posted by Valkyre:
About Ava telling Liz she was changed--there may be some consequences to this, if you remember, Ava looked a little disturbed when Liz first told her that Max "brought her back", and Ava seemed very reluctant to say anything beyond "Liz can do it"...in the cut scene, Ava tells Liz that the Dupe's protector told Zan about healing humans and how it would change them, and that Zan "took it as a warning" and never used his powers to save a human......Val, this also reminds me of the reluctance of Future Max to tell Liz anything other than what she 'needed to know,' as if telling her too much could trigger something--like maybe he shouldn't have told her that they got married in Vegas because Liz's knowledge might have caused Max's wedding flash? Not sure how this would connect with effects of Liz's knowledge that she is changed--maybe something with knowledge of the granolith that could be inadvertently revealed to the likes of Nicholas?

quote:Originally posted by Valkyre:
...Anyway, best route on the Tess thing is to agree to disagree. ...

Amen to that and for any other topic as well!

Also while she is often annoyed by their lovey-doveyness...to me, I see it more like, "When am I going to have that?" Which is what most of the other female characters seem to think when they look at M/L together and happy.

Ugh! I forgot who brought up the MITC scenes. Please forgive my horrible short-term memory. But I got a friend who has the script to type up some of that M/I/L/A scene in the CD that is missing. Here it is.

A quiet beat, then..

AVA
Liz can do it.

Everyone looks at Ava in surprise.

LIZ
What... are you talking about?

AVA
Max brought you back from the dead. You've been changed.
Liz recoils from the idea.

LIZ
What do you mean by ... changed?

AVA
(urgent)
Look, there's not enough time to explain. You have to trust me here. if Zan brought you back, then ... you're different now. Not human ... not alien...something in between.

LIZ
But I ... don't feel any different.

AVA
Whether you feel it or not... you are.
As Liz tries to grapple with this revelation ...
(CONTINUED)

INT. New York Hallway Night (Max and Lonnie Scene)

INT. CRASHDOWN CAFE - NIGHT45

Everyone looking at Liz. Isabel is sitting across from her ... reaches out across the table ...

ISABEL
Liz... take my hand...

LIZ
I want to... but I can't seem to make my arm move ...(beat)I don't know why ... but I'm really scared of this ...

MICHAEL
(gently)Because it's scary to know that you can do things other people can't.

LIZ
Ava's wrong... I haven't changed.

ISABEL
Let's find out.

Liz tries to quell the fears rising in her throat.

LIZ
If you ... if you can't contact him..what makes you think that I can ...?

ISABEL
Because he loves you, Liz. He loves you more than anything in this world. I know that. For all that's happened... for all the pain the two of you have caused each other... I know my brother... and I know that if there is one voice he will hear no matter where he is or what he's doing... it's yours. (beat)
Take my hand...

Liz takes a long beat ... summons up her courage and then takes Isabel's hand.

I think that this part really shows just how much they need her. True some of it was cut so we don't know for sure if it's a definte part of the mythology, but I think that it is still very revealing.

Hope you all enjoyed that little bit. Just think, by tomorrow we'll be able to have new stuff to analysis. I can't wait!

BTW, adding to Charmed's post: We know post-Hybrid Chronicles that Isabel has been dream walking Liz & knows Liz's true feelings for Max. Probably she dreamwalks Max too.

And I will try to write that article for submission right now.

[I cite the one from Bill Sadler's board instead of its counterpart at crashdown.com because I suspect the latter has a copying error -- two people there are listed as President, which seems improbable.]

I had some things nearly ready to post, but I have to go practice now; hope to be back later. Meanwhile, I'm glad some of our regulars are getting back safely. (The music I have to learn this quarter has about 20 F-flats sprinkled over four pieces, so, Qfanny, I get reminded of you pretty often....)

Since early in season 1, the sheriff has had a wine rack that complements his pistol collection -- the wine bottles fit into it like cartridges in a six-shooter (although there's seventh hole in the center, I think). Notice the similarity of this to Max's first microscope image of the cells in the blue goo.
(from Disturbing Behavior, crashdown.com image) Immediately after this image, the scene cuts to the sheriff's house, including that wine rack at first. (I don't propose any deep significance to this visual echo, maybe it's just there for the fun of it. It just seemed striking at the time, and I would like to show any of the set decorators who may be lurking, that we are trying to notice and appreciate the fine points of their work.)

from Monsters (crashdown.com image)

This row of pictures has been the same for a long time, through the beginning of VLV. But it looks different in the scene just before our friends leave for Las Vegas (discussing the cover story in the hallway). The revised array of pictures(unless that's a different one -- not sure it's the same place) is seen only briefly -- can anyone get a better look? Seems like a second row of four pictures has been added underneath. Also, the four in a row no longer look quite so uniform -- one is maybe darker? Curious.

In the suite at Las Vegas there is a similar row of 4 pictures on a wall (e.g. scene with Isabel dancing with "Dave"). Parallel to that wall is a row of four stools, grouped 3-and-1, another familiar pattern....

Also, when Max and Liz are using Brody's equipment to view the "blue goo" (in Disturbing Behavior, I think), a small object is seen briefly (on the table between two computer monitors, I think) that looks like a stack of four uniform lighted balls in something like an upside-down test tube.

So whoever has been bringing us all those 4's and 3+1's is still at it....

Happy Roswell Day. The RBI in me is really looking forward to tonights episode and getting some answers. As a Dreamer I think I'll be walking out of the room during a certin part. Have you noticed that we are starting to see some focus on Liz, finally. The Crashdown has a question about Liz's Importance and I'm seeing Shiri's pic holding the Liz Myth book all over the place. Everyone is really stuned that Shiri herself is holding are thread in her hands. I's not only on this forum it's being posted all over different sites. I really want to say THANK YOU to Qfanny, Behrsvenus and CharmedKittn. It takes a team to get the job done and the three of you scored the winning run.

Evid

Yes, you're right, and that's why I disagree with you.
Remember (Surprise?) that Isabel will spend lots of time on getting herself "presentable". Having The Hair right would be a big part of this. (So far, so good?)

Undoubtedly, Liz The Control Freak takes the time to do her hair right, when she can. Thus, when it seems disheveled, it seems that she hasn't had the time, energy, or concentration to brush it out. Remember, in simpler times it's been either nicely hanging straight, or a ponytail. The more she is in distress, the more she is in dis-tress.

Finally back from the land of Micky and Minnie in Florida! Had a great time! But being off line for 11 days leaves me totally out of touch with what is being discussed. I can hardly wait for the show tonight though! Hope you all liked the new "Intro" - a big THANKS to Shapeshifter for coming up with the idea, creating the site and links, and posting it in my absences! She is great!

Well - I'm busy catching up on work, but will be slowly reading when I have time to catch up on the discussion.

Till later!
Zero

elenac, I was also thinking today about the orb messages that Max couldn't have known (like the burying). Maybe Max's essence 'knows' about it?

(Destiny)

Look strangely familiar? The blue disk in the background of Liz's head resembles closely, so closely alien-looking DNA.

Or even -

Jessica

Cant WAIT to get to watch a NEW EPISODE!!! Woo-Hooo!!!!!!!!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

:calming down....calming down...AAA!

oh my. And why does Max remember tess?!?! WHY WHY WHY WHY????AAAAAAAAAAA!! does Shiri sound different and kinda sick to y'all??

one more thing:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Sean earned some big points with me when he said that there was something "special" about Liz. I think he also indicated that he has always felt that way. Sean seems like a nice guy. And you know, even though Liz was able to cut loose a bit and have some fun on her prom night, I don't see her and Sean together. I totally see Sean as a good friend to Liz. Someone outside the gang, that she can trust. He's a breathe of fresh air, and nothing more.

Of course, Liz is still bride and I am still a dreamer, and as much as it tore my heart out to see Max kiss Tess, I was still happy for Liz in the end. That she could go on, and have fun.

....Well did anyone figure out what Liz's necklace was afterall?

...I am sorry, I just can't help myself.

Purity, Ancient symbol of the sky, a stone of spiritual attunement (balances mind and soul), cleansing, protection and prosperity. Symbol of the Earth and the Sky.

Now after watching this episode tonight I definitely got the impression that Liz was freeing her soul, perhaps letting go of all the ugliness that has happened this year, excepting that Max is moving on, exploring his alien side, and as a result she is moving on too. Definitely felt that this episode went straight to the core of Liz, and really help her to deal with a lot of things that has been happening in her life. And for that she is much stronger.

Btw, this was the only thing I did like about this eppy, that Liz is getting stronger. She was already strong, but she is growing, while others appear to be standing still or more confused than ever.

Dayneen, I have to agree with you...this episode certainly gave us Liz's perspective on what has been going on -- I felt more "involved" in this episode and not so much like a spectator. (I know, it's weird, afterall we ARE spectators)

I enjoyed the journaling, almost like this is her story and her journey as opposed to the "aliens'" stories.

Thank you to all of you on this thread...this gives me a terrific break from my day to day.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

ps What does "TPTB" stand for?

Btw, this was the only thing I did like about this eppy, that Liz is getting stronger. She was already strong, but she is growing, while others appear to be standing still or more confused than ever.

hi, usually I'm a lurker, but after tonite's eppy I just had to say something. About Max & Tess exploring their alien side - did you wonder how come they didn't have any "flashes" or "visions" when they were kissing? Since they're both aliens, were even married in their past lives, shouldn't they have had some vision?!

I'm glad Liz is much stronger. She does look like she's transcending, rising like the phoenix from the ashes.

as much as my dreamer heart was very sad w/ this eppy, and as much as i really hate to say this, but sean (for the mean time) is really doing liz some good. what i mean is, he is bring liz back to life. back into the perspective of life, of what things are all about. to step back and see what is the picture. of what is really going on w/ her and max. liz has been in her pain for a long time that she has lost the perspective of who liz is and what she stands for. i'm glad to see her becoming stronger in character as well as in her convictions. you could say that seeing max and tess together (as much as seeing them together made me ) she can step away from the picture and move on (for the moment).

i really seems that everyone else wasn't themselves. max... was mush. mike was mike and maria was maria. isabel had some heart... not like the ice princess of last season. it was almost humbling to see that she was almost begging alex to take her to the prom. and it's like she is now realizing what a great guy alex really is and not like the bozos she was going for (grant, dave). kyle... am i missing something? where did the sisterly affection come from? tess seemed like she had something up her sleeve. almost deceitful. and liz... it's almost like she had a catharsis. sean brought out the joy and she is laughing again and i miss that.

BUT what seemed weird was that whatever sean has said, liz repeats it to max. like saying that she was suffocating.. when sean had said that earlier. and grow (oh.. but that was max who said it and then she repeated it.)

the forshadowing of liz, saying that she had this upsetting feeling that this was the last time that they would all be together.... it had me very upset as well.
that she's sensing more evil to come. and it's been liz that has had the vibes when things weren't right.

it's like everyone was warped or something. and i wouldn't be surprised.

ok... enough of my rant

First – to all the newbies and lurkers “welcome” - I’ve been gone for a while, so I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that we are a friendly group – though a bit Liz-centric!

I just finished watching the episode tonight, and I’m extremely tossed up about it. It was excellent in many ways (congrats to JK) – I loved that Liz’s Journal was back and that she was front and center for the first time since TEOTW, but the whole Max/Tess stuff leaves me cold. I just don’t trust Tess! The whole memory retrieval stuff is suspect to me due to her power of illusion, just like the Mom’ogram has always been suspect to me. I guess I could take it all at face value, but as an official leader of the RBI, I take nothing at face value! And what was with all the candles – even on the bed! Can we say “fire hazard”? (Oh, I forgot, Max can extinguish fires with a sweep of the hand! ) Did we have to see them kiss, and so long and intensely that they didn’t even flinch when Liz slammed open the doors! I hate the puke symbol, but it is SOO appropriate here!

My cable went out during Liz and Max’s discussion on the dance floor, (you mean you didn’t hear me scream? My husband did! ) so I missed part of the “chat.” Can someone please post what Liz said?? THANKS!

I totally understand how JK wrote Liz tonight – the conflict and the constant fear of Max telling her he remembers loving Tess! :confusion: BUT I think we are being set up for something. Otherwise, it would be simply CRUEL to have Liz come up on Max with Tess twice like that! And I do not think JK is cruel! I have to rewatch the episode before I figure it out. But I do think we will find some clues to something being up.

While I found Sean more endearing tonight, I still don’t buy Liz being attracted to him – though the scene at the end where they were playing in the bowling alley – which obviously was the same as the scene at the beginning of Liz dancing – was a wonderful scene! Seeing Liz so happy and carefree was wonderful to watch! The kiss didn’t bother me too much, because I see Liz as disparate for affection right now, she is so conflicted over Max – and Sean, in his own way fills that affection void, though her reaction after the kiss was appropriate because I think she realized it was not right. (I wonder if she got any visions from Sean??)

On first glance, I didn’t pick up many clues – BUT the premonition that the picture would be the last time the group would be together was so interesting. I still believe Liz has powers that she has not tapped into, YET! I would have loved it at the end if after finishing writing they had had Liz look up into the sky at the V constellation – it would have been a cool tie-in to last season – since we know it has to be in alignment. If anyone has the exact words Liz wrote at the end, I would love to read them, because I feel they are telling. I also agree with Qfanny about Sean’s comment about “Liz being Special!” being both Points in Sean’s favor – but also a clue since we still don’t know exactly how Sean fits in. Liz is Special – we know that – but what “special” means is what is important! JK – thanks for putting that there for us!

Miss L Parker – we are here for you! I too think it is going to be a bumpy ride. But “I still believe!” (I brought my Roswell CD on my trip, and basked in the sun of the Bahamas listening to that song! )

Dayneen – That is such a beautiful picture of Liz! Thanks for posting it – and no, I don’t know what the necklace was of – I thought of the hand with the eye in the middle when I saw it. Also – I like your thoughts about Liz freeing her soul! I still feel that there is a reason why Liz and Max had to be apart for a while. Liz needs to find her own path – as River Dog said – and freeing her soul will help her do that. I still feel they will end up together, but that to grow (think Hero’s Journey) they must confront and deal with their respective demons.

Makoto14 – welcome back! I think you hit the head on the nail as to why I like this episode, even though the M/T stuff makes me sick! I finally felt a part of the episode and truly connected to the characters. Even Iz – though having less screen time – was much more accessible to me tonight, and I truly felt for her. The journal always made the show more personal, and I think the lost of the journal last season took some of the soul out of Roswell. (BTW (by the way), TPTB stands for The Powers That BE – people in charge of the show in one way or another.)

MoebiusO – welcome! I too wonder about that – visions between M&T – but since I think there is some monkey business going on, well …

Okay, this is long, and I have to still rewatch the episode – so goodnight all , and I will “see” you all tomorrow! Oh – and the previews – well, they raise a whole set of Major issues I don’t have time to touch on – but there was one word mentioned that – well it is too late to get my blood pressure up now!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Basically, I agree with Qfanny's take (of course).

And it does seem weird that Tess is "helping" Max remember that he was with her and how it was. I mean, this is Tess of the Mind Warp Power. But I still leave room for the possibility that she would do it (if she is in fact doing it) because she feels it's her duty.

And Reggie, it looks like my theory of Liz's hair is correct: that if Controlling Liz has Controlled Hair, then Freeing Liz has Freed hair.

So is Sean going to get killed off??? I just thought after tonight that if it was him, it would explain Liz's reaction. Plus TPTB do have a rep for killing off extras.

And Sean sees Liz as special: maybe he was healed/changed too? But she didn't see any flashes that we know of when they kissed. Neither do we know what Max did or did not see when he kissed Tess this time. And if Tess had kissed Kyle would she have? I keep coming back to Michael's line from SH: "maybe that's how we're supposed to find out about ourselves--by connecting with humans."

So I guess they figured they better give us a journal writing scene if they were going to tragedize us to death in so many other ways. Oh, but I loved Liz's Bowling Alley Ballet. Interesting that they didn't have Emile do it since that's her forte. Maybe she helped Shiri with the choreography, though.

Hmmm, so we see Maria think it's over and it's not, and we see the same with Alex & Is, so is this a premonition for Max & Liz?

And the dragon shirt on Alex. Does Colin read our thread? Or maybe the book Qfanny printed of Zero's intro?

And I really do like Liz's jacket--I had a kind of purse of similar fabric that I made to carry my sketch book & pastels when I was Shiri's age. It got stolen under some dramatic circumstances. I keep waiting for Liz to lose the jacket in a traumatic situation (which I know many of you hope for too, but for different reasons ).

Oh, and Zero, basically, during the dance she said they weren't supposed to be together--that she had spent a whole year waiting for Max to tell her that he remembered that Tess was his wife. And she told him she saw them "together." Her facial expressions were memorable.

sigh-h-h. Just remember, things are not always what they seem, and this is Roswell, not Dawson's Creek.
Are you with us, Jason Katims?

WHERES MAX???????
I LOVE Max. I mean - yes - I am a Liz mythologist and I love Liz and hooray
for her journal thingy but I also LOVE Max and that was NOT Max. It was like
robot-boy. And an unhappy - sick looking robot boy. Max looked BAD and he
was just so emotionally absent. Even in the Tess scenes - it was totally
auto-pilot. Did they not have emotions of Twilo??
I said many, many moons ago that if he EVER did "memory retrieval" that he
would get mind warped. Well - it didnt seem like "Max" at all tonight.

2) From the promo for next week. Oh Joy - another alien pregnancy scare.
Hmmmmmmmm - didnt we go through this last year??????????? I hate the alien baby card.
Ick Ick Ick.

3) Max doesnt remember what anyone looked like - only their ENERGY. For
some reason TESS is clearest (lets see - could it be she is mind warping
him?????? Nah - she is just a sweet little misunderstood orphan bride - such
evilness is beyond her = yeah RIGHT (and I have some great pets.com stock to
sell you too)
Anyway - the bride Max subconciously remembers - he used to feel that it was
Liz "It was YOU!" - but that was back when Max appeared to have a soul and
emotions - not when he was zombie-boy.

3) In the bedroom Max says to Tess "You MADE me remember". Not "You helped
me remember" not "I remembered" - "you MADE me remember"
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
As if his gut sense is that the memories are not coming from within him at all.
Also - the little "swimming in jello" talk - that is a classic hypnosis excercise. Tess's alien "Memory Retrieval" technique is the same as hypnosis technique for humans! Convenient.

4) Was it just me - or was Alex sexy? And yup -noticed the dragon shirt.

5) Is Sean reading Liz's mind? It was way creepy to me at moments.
Especially when he told her there was "something special" about her. All us
Liz mythologist know that that is the thing Liz wants most to hear. It just all seemed so sketchy. He was always "conveniently" showing up.
I did like to see happier Liz with Sean (unlike Max - she seemed like her old self in this eppy) And - I loved the dancing images.
Also - in her prom dress with the funky necklace - she looked like a Twilo bride to me. TOTALLY different than how the other kids dressed for pom. Looks like Liz is going to come full force into her mythology by season end. I just HATE to lose Max in the process - even temporarily.

6) Liz bowls a strike on lane 31 - 3+1=4 - another image of the "fouth" being DIFFERENT.

Okay - aside from the strong Liz - I didnt like this episode at all - not because of the
Tess/Max/Sean/Liz stuff - but because Max was just GONE.
I dont really want to watch Roswell without Max in it. Even if we are
getting Liz back - I just LOVED Max too and that was not Max tonight. When they were talking on the dance floor - its like he wasnt even THERE. And when he was with Tess (supposedly rediscovering the love of his past life) he just seemed so trance-like and sad. As if - the only way he could believe that he was supposed to be physically with Tess was for him to have all of his emotions sucked out of him.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
******WHERE'S MAX????*********

After last night's heartbreaking eppy I had to post today. Where to start? First off, I'm with EVERYONE that says, "T and Max?? NO WAAAY!" I don't trust it! I don't get it, I don't like it and I DON'T trust it! I can't quite put my finger on how she fits in or what she's doing to get her little grubby hands on Liz's man, but it's something and I HATED those scenes last night!!! You know, the ones that made you

That being said, I was BAWLING just about every other scene last night. This thing with Sean and Liz? No. That's not going to happen. Where is this coming from? Who is this guy and WHY is Liz "so special" to him? He says, "there's something about you, Liz" - well, NO DOUBT, but WHY does he know that? He's not part of the Pod Squad, he doesn't know any of the history, then WHY did his statements to Liz make me go "hmmmmmmmmmm"???!!

OK, I DID love the faxt that Liz's journal entries are back!!! Do you think "they" heard us!?

I also loved the scenes between M&M and A&I, but couldn't help but just sit there (crying), thinking, "why aren't Max and Liz out there? Kissing? Dancing? Laughing together?" *sigh* Oh.. it's just SO sad.. let's hope Zero's right, that JK is NOT cruel and that this eppy had a purpose that will ONE day make me smile - cuz right now?? I can't even muster a smirk

WHERES MAX???????
I LOVE Max. I mean - yes - I am a Liz mythologist and I love Liz and hooray
for her journal thingy but I also LOVE Max and that was NOT Max. It was like
robot-boy. And an unhappy - sick looking robot boy. Max looked BAD and he
was just so emotionally absent. Even in the Tess scenes - it was totally
auto-pilot. Did they not have emotions of Twilo??
I said many, many moons ago that if he EVER did "memory retrieval" that he
would get mind warped. Well - it didnt seem like "Max" at all tonight.
...
Okay - aside from the strong Liz - I didnt like this episode at all - not because of the
Tess/Max/Sean/Liz stuff - but because Max was just GONE.
I dont really want to watch Roswell without Max in it. Even if we are
getting Liz back - I just LOVED Max too and that was not Max tonight. When they were talking on the dance floor - its like he wasnt even THERE. And when he was with Tess (supposedly rediscovering the love of his past life) he just seemed so trance-like and sad. As if - the only way he could believe that he was supposed to be physically with Tess was for him to have all of his emotions sucked out of him.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
******WHERE'S MAX????*********

Hi StarBox and the rest of you mythologists

It's been a while since I've posted, and I haven't even been lurking much in the last few months. Being spoiler free, last night came as a surprise. I know they've been building up to this, and as the story goes, they've made all three characters worthy of our sympathy BUT -- I'm in 100% agreement with everything you said StarBox (maybe not about Tess's duplicity, my jury is till out on that one). Even though poor old Max has take quite a beating this season, the only thought that came to mind after the show was
"Max, you inarticulate turd!" I suppose I'll juat have to hang in there for the rest of the season and see if they turn it around.

SF

Well, I got a good look at the necklace and it looks like a to me!

A few notes I took:

Max remembers 3 moons on Antar. Red-orange or red, orange? No clouds.

Did anyone notice Alex was wearing puppy slippers when Isabel came to his window?

Cards were mentioned again! Sean said “Sorry, I misread my cards.”

I loved the fact that Liz’s journal is back and I loved the tie-in with the beginning of the episode (Liz twirling on the bowling lanes) and the end. The episode was about Liz learning to breathe on her own, although being the ultimate dreamer that I am, she can only breathe shallowly without Max!

Liz having a premonition that something is about to go wrong: could this be part of her power? TPTB need to develop this!

Quote by shapeshifter
Hmmm, so we see Maria think it's over and it's not, and we see the same with Alex & Is, so is this a premonition for Max & Liz?

I noticed in this episode what Maria was going through, Liz was going through as well in a manner of speaking. The same thing happened in EOTW for the most part. I think this is right on!

Starbox ITA with all your points, except there were some great parts in the episode. Alex did look extremely swanky! Puurrrrrrrr. Must. Resist. Posting. Of . Officer. Alex.

My question about the whole mind retrieval techniques: wouldn’t Max want to get to the gist of the politics of his home planet so if he has to go to another summit meeting he will know what the heck is going on? Why focus on who he loved back then (when it doesn’t seem to matter to Isabel and Michael). Unless Liz is the true bride and discovering this is important to their survival? Hmmmmmm.

Yeah I found this strange. That he would remember swimming in a pool, but not remember what caused them all to die??? Very strange indeed. I also felt as if Tess was coaxing him the whole time, especially the scene in his room. I too thought it was strange that he would remember what everyone else was like except himself?? Very very strange. For Max to be recovering memories of the love of his previous life Tess, he sure looked miserable and confused. He was almost catatonic the entire episode. Definitely think something strange is going on with the memory retrievals. Max was definitely off and not the strong Max that I remember from Season 1.

I beilieve that is why he has acted off in the eppy.

yes, and Liz is definetely getting stronger, but i don't trust Sean still

What about Kyle saying that his feelings for Tess were blocked somehow? What or who is blocking them--oh, I don't know, maybe Tess?!?

Me thinks something is rotten is the town of Roswell! Isn't Tess's nickname Trash??

Shaena
True Love Keeperof Pacey's Angels

shapeshifter - I heard something different about the car crash...
Starbox - Mr. Mechanical Max was all over the ep last night! I thought he was very stilted, like he was being maneuvered as opposed to being in charge of his own faculties, you know? And might I add that ITA with you #4 - Alex was totally ON last night. A big fat "Woohoo" in his direction! Now I am going to be singing, "No need to ask, he's a smooth operator..."

You know, while Max and Liz are sitting there basically asking each other to prom, there's all kinds of subtext in that scene.

1) Max says, "I think it might be a little too early to call." He's talking about M&M going to the prom, but I can't help feeling this statement is more widely applicable

2) "I always pictured that moment, you know, walking through those double doors together." I don't think that Liz actually meant all 4 of them here. Also, when I think of walking through double doors like that with someone, they're not high school gymnasium doors--they're church doors

3) "I know that we're not seeing each other and I accept that, I do, but..." Doth the lady protest too much? Liz all but said, Please ask me I guarantee I'll say yes!

4) "Well, you know, we can go." Automatic reflex much? He looked like a little boy who'd just been told he could have ice cream

5) "We can?" "Yeah. I mean, OK fine we're not together. But we're not also not with anyone else." Anybody else get the feeling that it is NOT fine that they're not together?

6) "It doesn't have to be this life-changing thing. We can just go and have a good time." This reminds me of a certain basketball game in Toy House, and how sitting together didn't "have to be this whole awkward thing." But it was, b/c they were both unsure still, and Max thought he saw Liz and Kyle getting back together after that, b/c of her behaviour towards Kyle. Now we're getting the reverse end--but remember that Liz and Kyle were NOT getting back together; things were not as they seemed.

7) "I would love that." "Me, too." One has to ask why? It isn't b/c they're going as friends, people, it's b/c they're still in love! And neither can imagine going to such an important function with anyone else.

8) "Yeah, I've been dying to tell you." Because she's still the person he wants to share everything with

9) As a number of people have pointed out, this is more or less the last scene in HOM where Max is being, well, Max (there's also the moment when he comes into the CD ). He starts acting differently later, after his memory session with Tess (which I'm not going to go into here & now).

This whole scene speaks of two people who want to be together and have no idea how to go about achieving that. OK, so some rough stuff happens later in the ep. It doesn't truly change the way they feel about each other; nothing could ever do that.
~Tas

She is definitely making Max think he loved her in the past. And she is definitely blocking Kyles feelings. My coworker actually thought that maybe the buddy of Kyles was a mindwarp. I think Tess was walking in the halls right as Kyle was talking to the guy (Maybe Tess wanted to go to prom to get a handle on Max and Liz) and she was sitting close by at the prom.

I tried to get on here last night and even with my new broadband connection it was all for naught.

As many of you know, I'm completely unspoiled except for the promo and I thought tonight's ep was going to be traumatic. But it really wasn't. I came away so calm and fairly happy actually. And it all revolves around Liz writing in her journal once again. I feel like we have come full circle. Liz is finally able to lift the great weight off her chest and breathe again. And you know, I feel just the same way. I feel like I am once again a part of this show. Like I'm actually sitting in the Crashdown or at the prom. I'm an actual participant. Yep, redhawk's starting (starting?) to sound delusional.

I think moebius0 is on to something. Why are there no flashes between Tess and Max.

moebius0 - great analogy... Liz the phoenix rising from the ashes and devastation.

And I know many of you agree, Max was just not himself last night. Yes, he's definitely in my doghouse after that unspeakable act. Ewww. It makes my stomach turn just thinking about it, but what I really wanted to say was, Max just seemed like he was being led around on a leash last night. ::redhawk should really leave these dog analogies behind:: And StarBox that whole jello thing had me questioning what was going on. Thanks for pointing out the hypnosis thing. It reminded me of when you are having a dream sometimes it feels like you're walking around slowly as if sloshing through thick liquid, i.e. jello. hmmm....

And about Sean, he gets points with me for saying Liz is special and making her happy, but as my husband pointed out (yes, he talks to the television too), "Sean, get a clue, you are SO the rebound guy."

Dayneen - great screen cap of Liz dancing. I think it looks like turquoise too.
quote:Originally posted by Dayneen:
Purity, Ancient symbol of the sky, a stone of spiritual attunement (balances mind and soul), cleansing, protection and prosperity. Symbol of the Earth and the Sky.
Aha! How appropriate! ...balancing mind and soul, cleansing (this ep was cleansing for Liz), symbol of the Earth and Sky (Antar)?!

LIZ: Max, I just want to say that I feel really weird.

MAX: What do you mean?

LIZ: I mean I saw you with Tess.

MAX: You saw me what with Tess?

LIZ: I saw you with her. I came by your house yesterday to talk to you about something and you were with her.

MAX: We were just trying to find out things about where we came from, that's all.

LIZ: I know. I know. You know, you keep saying that. But you keep on leaving out this really pertinent fact: that you were married to her. I feel like my whole life for the past year has been waiting for some really bad news. Oh, you know, by the way, Liz, I remember Tess and I love her. It's really paralyzing.

MAX: I know it's not easy.

LIZ: No, Max, it can be. It can be really, really easy. If we both just stop pretending.

MAX: What do you mean?

LIZ: You know, maybe we're both just holding on to something that'll never be. Max, maybe we should just let go. I've been in so much pain, this whole year. And it's like I'm suffocating.

(Many speaking looks are exchanged. Liz has tears in her eyes; Max keeps opening his mouth to say something but nothing comes out. They both look like they're in pain. Liz sees a despondent Maria out of the corner of her eye)

LIZ: Oh. Um, I should go, be with Maria.

MAX: Right.

LIZ: She's all alone tonight.

MAX: Go ahead.

LIZ: Max…

MAX: Go ahead.

Note: I think that Max recognizes how much pain she's in--it's all there, in her eyes, when she's looking at him--and he can't bear to be the cause. The second time he tells her to go ahead, what he's really doing is letting her go.
~Tas

redhawk LMAO at your Roshubby's remark. Makes me feel better

As for Liz's remark during the photo in the CD that this was the last time they'd all stand together like this--well, if Isabel's graduating, it would be. She won't be going to the senior prom. I also remember feeling like that when we had our prom pics taken (we only have senior proms in my area ).
~Tas

This particular capture does remind me of a rattlesnake head. Ick!

The large center stone looks like either an opal or mother-or-pearl perhaps. Notice how there are four parts to the clasp holding the one large stone in place. The four podsters with Liz at the center? Yep, redhawk can read into almost anything.

I agree! I wonder if Liz will ask/talk about that in the next eppy. Or will ANYONE mention the flashes or lack-there-of with T!?!? It HAS to mean SOMETHING, right???

Just dropping by quickly to check in.

Shapeshifter – I hope all is well with your daughter. Thanks for summarizing what Liz said. My cable only went out for a second – but the tape kept taping while I panicked fumbling to get the TV back on! My poor husband had to listen to me scream at the TV (I don’t do that much!) ! So, I got the gist of what she said, but … So heartbreaking.

Star Box – I totally agree about Max. He is so vacant last night – like he was tongue-tied, incapable of a meaningful thought! I wanted to slap him across the face during the dance scene and yell “Earth to Max! Earth to Max! Come in Max!” Or as Cher so eloquently says - “Snap out of it!” Also – was I the only one who wonders about the whole description of Max and Tess’ alien relationship. Unless their alien beings do have a common ancestor with humans, what are the chances that their physical alien beings would be sooo similar to human’s?? (Does that make sense?) I’m not articulate right now. ITA about the mind-wrapped stuff – Tess is so suspicious! I don’t trust “memory retrieval” when conducted in her presences or involvement! Never have, never will! Good catch on the “You MADE me remember” comment, too!

Star Box, you mentioned the word that got my blood boiling from the preview last night – “pregnancy”! Oh no – not again!! Please spare us the horror and emotional pain! (Okay, this vomit guy is addicting under the circumstances!)

I thought Alex was great tonight, and really liked the groveling Iz and him together! So, cute! I have to look for the dragon t-shirt.

Also – interesting that Liz seems to rediscover her being, balance and soul, while Max seems to be losing his slowly.

Alexis – ITA about if I were Max I would want to get to the bottom of the political situation on my home planet. If someone went to all the trouble to get you a second chance, wouldn’t you want to know why and what went on. Who cares about past (!) loves – unless, they contributed to that downfall! Umm….

Shaiwon – yes, it does remind me a bit of the books when Max was starting to be consumed by the collective consciousness, and Adam was around with a huge crush on Liz.

Peej – interesting comment about “energy”! Very interesting!

Tasyfa – I had the same reaction to Max’s comment at the fountain about it being too soon to call! He seemed the most like himself in this scene than any other. I like your parallelism with Toy House’s basketball scene – which I loved BTW! I still “see” Max looking at Liz looking at Kyle when I hear that song by Third Eye Blind! And good observation about Max “dying to tell Liz.” She is still his confidant – his trusted advisor, best friend, etc. She always will be – that type of connection doesn’t break easily! ITA with you statement about this!

Oh BTW – I have yet to rewatch HOM, but I remember the bus that Liz misses had the numbers 553 on the front window – it jumped out at me. Anyone else notice that?? (TVPooh – I see you noticed!)

Considering the bumpy ride I believe we are in for, this thread is going to be my haven in the storm!! to all of you out there for the mutual support! Just keep saying to yourself, “JK is NOT cruel! This WILL work out!” If we say it enough, it has to come true – right!!??

Finally, welcome to all the newbies, returning posters, lurkers and old-timers – we have to support each other!

Zero :grin;
I Shall (continue and always) Believe!

Didn't Max say that all he remembered was everyone's energy, not actual faces? Well, isn't it possible that he could be remembering Liz's energy, but he thinks it's Tess? I know some of you don't like Liz as an alien, but I think this could still work even if she's human now.

Didn't Max say that all he remembered was everyone's energy, not actual faces? Well, isn't it possible that he could be remembering Liz's energy, but he thinks it's Tess? I know some of you don't like Liz as an alien, but I think this could still work even if she's human now.

audrey You took the words right out of my mouth.
Another thing that stood out was Michael wanting to know about the women and what they looked like on there planet. I think the writers were trying to tell us that Max remembers his bride, but it's still up in the air that it's Tess, he can't put a face on her.
Remember what Mom-o-gram said on Destiny.
"I take this form because it will be familiar to you."
So how does Max know that it's Tess that he remembers the most? She wouldn't have the same form. He is "feeling" the energy and who is it that brings out Max's deepest feelings, Liz.

Max with Tess in 4 Square on the way to the pod chamber.

Max after kissing Tess on HOM.

I'm sure glad my hubby doesn't look like that after we kiss, what a low blow to Tess's ego. It looks like Max might puke right along with the rest of us.

So RBI's, do you think Max looks a little mind warped on both caps?

Evid

Didn't Max say that all he remembered was everyone's energy, not actual faces? Well, isn't it possible that he could be remembering Liz's energy, but he thinks it's Tess? I know some of you don't like Liz as an alien, but I think this could still work even if she's human now.

EXACTLY! Which leads me to, "HOW can Max and T be recreating this 'first kiss' when they can't remember faces?

T And then you touched my face...

Yeah? Who says!?! He knows he touched SOMEONE's face, but why does it have to be T? Or heck, maybe the whole thing never happened. I hopeIhopeIhope!

Let's hear what Mikey G has to say about this!!

Didn't Max say that all he remembered was everyone's energy, not actual faces? Well, isn't it possible that he could be remembering Liz's energy, but he thinks it's Tess? I know some of you don't like Liz as an alien, but I think this could still work even if she's human now.

Good point! Her energy would be basically the equivalent of her soul, which is essentially raceless (at least, IMO!).

Also, someone in that rant-fest known as the discussion thread pointed out the similarities between the M/T kiss and the kiss at the end of HW. The whole dialogue, with Max saying, "And then," and the way he touched her cheek was eerily similar. Could Tess have altered a real memory of Max's to manufacture the illusion of their first kiss? Granted, the HW kiss was the night after the party, but it was late at night, and I'm sure it would be associated with memories of the party since that's when they almost kissed. Does this make sense to anyone else?
~Tas

Evid - Max looks totally lobotomized in the HOM picture. He is Stepford-Max.

And ITA agree - I think the "energy" Max "remembers" is Liz's essence - that is - if he is actually remembering anything and it isnt ALL a big mind warp.

A weird thing - it seems like Liz and Tess are starting to be made to look similar - last night Tess's curls were really toned down and Liz's hair was wavy.

Also - I agree that Kyle is being messed with/warped as well. He seemed shocked to hear himself say Tess was like a sister.

How is it that Isabel is graduating early but not Liz????

And Zero on the absolutely hideous alien baby plot device. My consolation is that there are only 5 episodes left and they all seem to be part of one big arc. Which means the season will be ending with resolution.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
Where's Max?????

quote:Originally posted by Dayneen:
Yeah I found this strange. That he [Max] would remember swimming in a pool, but not remember what caused them all to die??? Very strange indeed. I also felt as if Tess was coaxing him the whole time, especially the scene in his room. I too thought it was strange that he would remember what everyone else was like except himself?? Very very strange.

I certainly wouldn't put this past Miss Mindwarp... I've *never* trusted the girl. Liz has NEVER trusted her either! Liz didn't trust her in SURPRISE when she (Tess) was seemingly the victim and everyone was feeling sorry for her. Liz didn't trust her in VLV when everyone was seemingly in a happy group... Liz DID NOT accept being stuck with Tess, she didn't like it and made that VERY clear. Even in my brief visit to Rebounderland, I never trusted Tess. I also second all those who thought Kyle's seemingly SUDDEN change from potential fellow "Lamptrimmer" to "Sister" strange.

Alexis & Dayneen: I also thought it was very strange that Michael and Isabel weren't equally taking part in these "memory retrieval" sessions. It would seem to me, considering they ARE part alien, that Michael and Isabel would be just as willing to take part in recovering memories as Max OR Tess.... almost seems like they weren't "invited" to me. Like this is exclusively just for Max and Tess... like they're the only ones with past lives here! Whatever.

quote:For Max to be recovering memories of the love of his previous life Tess, he sure looked miserable and confused.

Ditto... kind of contrasts the seeming "happiness" Tess seems to elude to in ASK NOT in concerns to Max's "love" for her. Tess carressing his face, remembering that he loved her once. Something Max DOES NOT or EVER remembered his whole time on Earth seemingly (not until Tess came into the picture of course, convenient). It almost makes me wonder if the podsters were NEVER intended on remembering these memories of Twilo? That whatever happened then... it was in the PAST and should be forgotten? But, of course, in order to forget these memories (get over them); they have to remember them... so perhaps this is the purpose to all of this "memory retrieval" crap.... hmpf. Although if they ARE supposed to "get over" these "memories"... WHY?

quote:He was almost catatonic the entire episode. Definitely think something strange is going on with the memory retrievals.

ITA.

quote:Max was definitely off and not the strong Max that I remember from Season 1.

IMO, Max has been "off" since THE WHITE ROOM.... he's only gotten worse since. IF there is something indeed "off" with the memory retrieval stuff... it wouldn't surprise me effecting Max to the extent it seemingly has. Max looks literally downtrodden and distressed after he kisses Tess... NO RELIEF in his face at all of seemingly "moving on" with his life or actually discovering this "purpose" in his life which he has more than likely searching for since literally hatching. It's all really weird to me.

NyLon originally posted this on the Cherishing thread... and I'm sure it's been brought up here already (it just creeped me out)... this line from HOM keeps haunting me however....

Max: I remembered! You made me remember!

Tess made him remember, eh? Interesting choice of words Max!

You know what... if there's ANYTHING phony going on with this memory retrieval stuff as many have already speculated in here.... imo, IF Tess is manipulating Max in some way... Who's to say she didn't do it in THE PAST LIFE TOO!! Yes yes... the hybrids powers are "human". Nikolas isn't a hybrid (as far as we know however, and granted I suppose this is arguable)... yet he can do everything the hybrids can do x1000. Interesting. So in the pastlife... we have the most eligible bachelor on Antar... a pretty, ambitious mindwarping courtesan.... could have spelled catastrophe in the past life. A catastrophe that could have possibly been avoided had some eligible young King had a stronger mind about him OR a certain little mindwarper restrained her greed and/or ambition??

I also still find it amusing Tess was regularly referred to as "the young bride".... Future Liz certainly WAS NOT a "young bride" before her world collapsed (seemingly because of Tess' leaving, NOT because of Max/Liz's marriage)... she was married to Max for 14 years! I don't know where I'm going with this spec really... but it seems to me that if protoTess couldn't even make it past the "young bride" stage and Liz was married to Max for 14 years... I suppose, WHICH is the lesser of the two evils?? If one of them was truly "evil" to begin with? I suppose as a raging Dreamer... I could NEVER consider Max/Liz's pairing to be "evil" in any way, shape or form. I suppose I'm just biased.

Melodious

justsmile

Mel - good point. Why aren't Michael and Isabel learning these mind retrieval techniques? It seems awefully fishy that they are not included. ...unless, of course, there is something sinister going on here...

May I entice you over to some wonderful fanfic? I've been working on a series of illustrations for WR's fanfic "The Importance of Being Elizabeth". http://www.olde.worlde.btinternet.co.uk/wrfanfic.html
This illustration corresponds to the prologue... soul division.
Beginnings

Go on... read it and all will be explained.

Sorry it's rather large.

However, there is something about Max's zombie-like state that reminds me of Balance last year. I wonder if it can pull him out of balance to get too involved with memory retreival. As someone pointed out, maybe there weren't given their memories for a reason.

As far as remembering the first kiss and not remembering faces, I think that maybe the hybrids are somehow linked to the collective or it's a race memory. But because they are now human, their brains take that bit of memory and rehash it into something they can understand. For example, ProtoMax and ProtoTess rubbed their antennas together but because they as hybrids do not have antennas, they memory was altered into something they would understand.

Well – I watched Heart of Mine twice today during lunch and while writing bills (talk about torture!). And, I have a ton of things to say. I took notes on the back of my phone bill envelope – now if I can only read them!

First comments on what others have posted -

I totally agree with the “whose energy is it anyway” question! How does he know he is feeling Tess’ energy, and not someone else’s??

Tas – the altered HW memory make wonderful sense to me – but it would mean that not only can Tess create mind-altering illusions, but that she is also capable of getting into someone’s memories. Now whom do we know that can do this?? NICKO! Yes – that sleazy character! Ummm…. Something is rotten in Roswell! (and maybe Denmark, or Sweden, too!) If Tess is capable of mindrape that would be a big discovery/clue!

Star Box – I wondered about Iz graduating early too?? Okay, it has been a while since I was in HS, but graduating early is more than just taking one extra class – at least it used to. And if anyone of the group is the most likely to have taken all her core classed early, it would be Liz, or maybe Alex – but Iz?? She has never struck me as the studious type?? :eyespin: Oh, and like the term “Stepford Max” for the new incarnation of Max! So, there is Evil Max (EM), Alien Max (Zan), Future Max (FM), Normal old Max (Max) and Stepford Max (SM – also stands for sadomasochist). (I’m a true believer in finding humor whenever possible to cheer the spirits! ) Oh and on the pregnancy plotline apparently coming our way based on the previews – I once said – long ago – I will stop watching if Max sleeps with Tess, and now I’m going to feel like Alex Baldwin – since there is no way I would stop watching now, I’m so involved in this show! They just better resolve this one – that is one loose end I could not live all summer with!

Melodious1 – I think that the fact that Liz has NEVER trusted Tess speaks for itself!! I trust Liz’s instincts! Also, I find it interest the VLV was supposed to be a Liz/Tess bonding episode, and they went totally the opposite way with it – meaning that they decided NOT to let Liz be taken in my Tess even for an episode. I too thought it was strange that Iz and Mikey G were not included in the memory retrieval sessions. I could see Mikey G having work schedule conflicts, but Iz is right in the next room! Ummm…. I agree that this was a closed party by choice! Also, I tend to agree that Max has been off since Tess showed up – before White Room. Ever since she started Playing with his mind he has had few moments of total clarity!

I though Max was going to after kissing Tess! He sure looked like it. Though Liz was the one who had the right to after seeing them together! I remember once coming on a similar scene a few days after going to a big formal with this guy I really liked, and I did - thank God for girlfriends!

Justsmile – welcome! I did notice that – it’s in my notes (somewhere)!

Beautiful picture Redhawk! I wish I had time to get over there and read the fanfic – who needs to sleep right!

Now my comments based on rewatching the episode – we have a new date! April 27th, 2001! I don’t know if this is the day of the Prom, but it is the date of Liz’s Journal entry! Her first entry in close to a year! About the same time Tess has been around – ummm…..

I thought it was interesting that Max called his memories “ephemeral” (which means temporary or transitory). This would play into someone manipulating his memories – where she could only do it while around for short periods of time. Ummm….

I thought Maria’s comments to Mikey G about being “half alien/half Grandpa Dupree” were funny! I also think that his feelings for Maria are tying Mikey G to Earth more, along with the discovery of his Human connection – Laurie Dupree! Maria also considers the Prom “potentially one of the 5 greatest nights of her life.” (Any guesses as to the other 4??)

The bus Liz misses is 55_3, Liz bowls in lane 32 and Max “remembers” 3 moons of burnt orange. The numbers…..

After watching Sean so much – I started to grow to like him. How can I dislike a guy who drives a VW Bug! I think of him as the Adam of the show – you have to have read the books to understand this. BUT – the more I watched him – his ability to always show up at just the right time, etc. – I started to think about the guardian I believe is watching over Liz. I write about it in the Intro – and have often wondered if Tic Tac could be such a guardian. Well, what if Sean is such a being? I think Sean is here for a reason – not just as a distraction – but also to help Liz discover her specialness! BTW – if the terms of his probation prohibit him from coming within 1000 feet of school property, then he was probably convicted of something having to do with destruction of school property – which is just the type of thing that would land him in Juvenile Hall w/ the ability to get out early on good behavior. Also, the fact that he used to work at the bowling alley, and still has free access means that he can’t be all bad. I don’t think they broke in – I think he has free access based on previous employment. I liked Sean (which may be biased due to the fact that I like the actor playing him a lot) – and for once, I think he has good ulterior motives.

The whole Tess/Kyle dynamics were so weird! I think Kyle is being manipulated too somehow. Tess was so odd in her reaction to Kyle asking her to the Prom, awkward before the Prom, and totally blowing him off and relieved when Kyle called her Family in the storage room. Where did this relationship – or lack of one – come from?? And Kyle’s reaction when he called her a sister was a reaction of shock – where did that come from? He talks to Maria about feeling resistant and not being able to put his finger on it – umm ….? I do think Kyle was adorable in his Tux!

I thought the comment Liz makes – “I feel like Max and I are going in 2 different directions, just not able to separate” – is telling. Could it be because they are life bond/soul mates, not easily separated? And even if they are separated – it won’t be permanent – that connection, energy and bound will ALWAYS be there pulling them back to each other.

Also, Liz tells Maria – “We could be reading into this whole thing,” and then goes and does exactly that.

The necklace looked Native American in design to me with turquoise stones as the chain. It looked like a bird – phoenix? – with it wings folded down before taking to flight. ???

I do think that Liz’s intuition is right on, and the premonition that this is the “last time we would all be standing together” was interesting. Also, think about the words she uses! “Stand together” is a phrase often used in battle when allies stand together against the enemy. Ummm …. Could it be that they will be separated into different fractions – the previews seem to imply this. Will Liz have to stand alone – or with fewer allies – against the enemy?

Max has a white rose boutonnière – and I believe Liz had a white rose corsage.

Now – I love to listen to the words of the songs playing in the background – and HOM had a couple that were very relevant. When Liz and Max look at each other (Stepford Max in full force here) after she has just told him that maybe they need to let go of each other, in the background are these words - “I think of you night and day; I never know just what you meant to say.” Now – I think Liz kept waiting for Max to tell her that he still loved her, etc., but he doesn’t – he finally tells her to go see Maria – so what is said in the background is interesting. Then when Max and Tess are sitting together ( - couldn’t resist) the following is playing – “I don’t know where my soul is; I don’t know where my home is” – Could Max be loosing his soul while Liz is finding hers? Ummm …. I think back to the scene at the beginning of MITC where Max and Tess are at the top of the Empire State Bldg. Looking down – and the image of temptation and the devil. Finally – “Can’t fight the undertow” plays (I think – my notes are suspect here) during the final dance scene.

Someone commented on Liz dancing – which I thought was a wonderful scene – beginning and end. I don’t think Shiri needs help from EdR since I believe SA also has a background in dance – though maybe not as extensive as EdR.

I loved the ending with Liz writing about her Heart being open – that she is writing again, felling and breathing! Think about Grandma Claudia’s comment about “follow your heart” – if Liz’s heart is not open, how could it lead her to where she need to go! Liz is on her journey, and I do think – as depressing as parts of this episode were – this was another step – or leap – in that journey. Though I fear for Max!

Finally – just a little rant – doesn’t anyone use a front door in this show?

Check back later if I have time Sorry this was so long – but I had the time today – so …

Zero
I Shall (continue and always) Believe!

I was laughing so hard when Tess was telling Max about swimming through the water. She said something like, "it's not liquid and it's not solid," then Max said "it's Jello, you made me remember." I thought they were playing charades. I was waiting for Tess to to tell Max it has two syllables. I had the answer before Max, does that mean I'm from Antar?
Did any of you wonder how the heck they drink that stuff and how it must clog up their sewer lines. Oh right they must get constipated from drinking it and they don't need to go very often.
Max's alien Mom must have been even a worse cook then Diana. How the heck do you make soup with Jello? Ok sorry, I think HOM has pushed me over the edge.

Evid

I thought I was going to hate this episode LOL guess why? But since Liz is my fav character well how could I--Liz was back in a big way-loved seeing things through her eyes again, through her JOURNAL(YEAHHHH!!!!)
I did not however like the blackboard campy Maria opening---totally unnecessary and makes the show seem silly to me---trying to hard in the comedy area here-I don't like it---its like forced!!!! Don't mean to bash but it reminds me of something that would be on POPULAR and Roswell is not Popular. I did love Liz and Maria bonding on the dance floor however and Maria saying no we are a couple now----LOL that was so cute!!!!
I thought Shiri's acting in that scene on the dance floor with Max was simply amazing I was so drawn into her pain---and poor Jason well he I think was purposely not given any lines because they are keeping what is going on with him a MYSTERY I think-they didn't want to give away too much yet--that was my take on it-so yes I agree he seemed befuddled, a little bit like Stepford Max LOL!!!

One more thing this is probably stupid and I know I won't spell it right but oh well here goes--remember when Kyle was reading the buddhism book----in TLV Tess says to Isabel that is an ancient buddha of Miromar????? And what was that guys name that kept coming over to Kyle asking about Tess the hottie? Miramoo or something like that????? hmmmm????

With Tess/Kyle, I didn't actually think it was that weird. Most of the flirting going on with Kyle and Tess happened when she first moved in with him, before she was even sure she was going to stay their on a permanent basis. I'm not saying Tess isn't working her crazy alien mojo on Kyle, it just seems logical that after they had time to live together, especially after Christmas, that they may have had time to "bond" as family members and develope that brother/sister relationship. And Kyle may have realized that during Prom.

Also, before the second season started JK&Co. gave a few interviews in which he spoke about the second season shifting to focus more on the "alien" part of the Alien's lives. That's why Liz was used much less in the first half of season two. I personally always thought that the appearance of Liz's diary signaled her importance/influence to the plot/story. It seems to me that the "focus" of the series may be shifting back to the "human" side, not specifically because of Liz and her diary writings. This is one of (if not the) first episode in a long while to be told completely from her perspective. We were very obviously being told this episode from Liz's point of view, and I thought her diary kind of signaled that.

About Michael/Iz not regaining memories --- isn't it possible that because of Max's status as "king" he may have increases power (ect.) which would give him the ability to access memories before Michael and Iz? Not to defend Tess, because she definately seems suspicious...just an idea.

And about Isabelle graduating...perhaps this belongs on the CHADs list, but if she and Max both "hatched" from teh pods looking like 6 year olds, how is it that she is 1 year older than Max? And although I wouldn't pin her as being especially studious, she does strike me as being a perfectionist, and part of her "perfect" image, (also: part of her fitting into her Roswell/Human life) may have been acheiving well in school. Its possible she may have taken extra courses. Although, its also possible her guidance counsler was telling her that she would have the *bare minimum* courses required for graduation, should she want to graduate because she was 18 (and not at 19). Liz may have already reached the maximum credits required to graduate, but I'm sure she would take every opportunity to take every science class offered.

Also, this is kind of a side note...and may be unimportant. There was some discussion about Liz's jacket and the ivy and the ivy's symbolism. On Juanita's house, there was some kind of tile of an ivy design or something. Did anyone else notice this? Does it mean anything.

Okay, I'm sorry I so aimless rambled (and probably went way OT), but I think I may have a few valid ideas buried in their somewhere

justsmile

Star Box, you mentioned the word that got my blood boiling from the preview last night – “pregnancy”! Oh no – not again!! Please spare us the horror and emotional pain! (Okay, this vomit guy is addicting under the circumstances!)

QUOTE]

As usual Zero, you bring up so many good points in your posts. But anyway, I was wondering why everyone thought Michael's line about Max getting Tess pregnant meant she was pregnant now, on earth. Maybe I'm just weird, but for some reason I just thought he meant that's what happened on Antar. Maybe thats the reason they got married? (probably just wishful thinking )

The rest of the promo for Cry Your Name just looked amazing- Liz holding Max responsible, Liz leaving and Max telling her "if you leave now, our friendship is over" and other stuff I can't remember right now. I should go rewatch it.

Hi--I just had to pop in to say that I had the same thought. Maybe it is wishful thinking, but I hope it's true.

Here's my favorite wallpaper of this season!

Notice that the T-shirt has the HOM on it. I wonder if we can bring this into the mythology any.

Why I liked HOM.

1) Liz is starting writing in her journal again. She says she may like science, but I think she would be a wonderful writer.

2) Liz's has shown herself to have grown stronger.

3) Liz and Sean had fun together without it being a life and death situation.

4) Sean says he feels that Liz is special, and has felt that way for a long time.

5) Liz *may have* used her powers to pull the speculation that this was "their last night" all together.

6) Maria and Kyle had a short, but very believable conversation about their parents.

7) Michael went out of the way for Maria to show that he cares.

8) Stargazers were remembered.

9) Tess admits to being disappointed that Kyle sees her as a sister.

10) Alien memories might produce some answers to our questions.

11) Alex's bedroom could be a new set for us to dissect.

12) The episode ended with a wonderful future trailer.

13) Max's character, perhaps the most boring, was actually interesting to watch. Way to go JB. I think I saw more emotion tonight than I have in a long time.

14) Tess seems to be returning to her old ways.

15) Isabel is a closet scholar, and will graduate early.

16) Isabel had to plea with Alex to take her to the prom.

17) Liz's and Isabel's dresses were to-die for.

18) Sean got Liz to open up and start writing again.

19) Liz is doing chenne turns in the beginning. You can tell Shiri has had ballet training because her posture is perfect and she is spotting.

20) Love Sean's Bug

21) Liz passes on the alcohol (and underage drinking.)

22) Liz says Sean is a good guy.

23) Max was impressed that Liz bought her dress early.

24) Max wants to tell Liz about his memories, even though he knows they will hurt her. (Okay, so that sounds masticistic, but remember in Harvest, Max says they never kept anything for each other.)

25) Liz gets Max to see how much their lives have been hurting.

26) Max and Liz both reacted to their break-up by throwing the flowers aside. They think alike.

27) The only way Max can relate to Tess is through past memories.

28) Michael's hair looks better now.

29) Amy Deluca and Jim Valenti were the couple of the hour. Let's hear it for the adults!

30) It was a new episode.

>>>> input your reasons below <<<<<

Or maybe not, afterall he did bowl...

just thinking out loud--

makoto

The Music
1) During M/L's dance, before Liz starts to talk, the chorus to that song is playing in the background. Here are the lyrics:
Bye bye baby
Don't be long
I worry about you
While you're gone

2) At the end, when Liz is twirling, the line Zero was talking about is:
Can't fight the undertow
How long till you let go

Other observations
--The book Kyle is reading is "The Buddha advises on Relationships." One might think that he would be clear on how he feels about Tess if this is his current reading material Also, the a@@ who interrupts and is named Malamoo or Malamood (phonetic spelling ).

--The M/T scene in Max's room. Tess says to think about what he remembers, and what she says is nearly identical to what Max earlier said to Liz about what he remembered. Max describes the moons as "surreal, like a painting." Here's a thought--is she showing him a painting? There are some great fantasy artists out there (like redhawk ). Max asks, "What was I like?" and she responds with an action, not a character description. Finally (for now!0, please do not take this the wrong way, but the lighting when Tess is talking about blurry vs. clear memories is REALLY creepy. Her eyes look like solid black, and her mouth looks all black too. Almost corpselike. I just thought it was peculiar, esp. since Tess is usually in lots of light--EdR is very fair so she reflects light really well.

--Not only does no one use the front door, but now that we've seen Alex's room, we realize that every single teen has a window they can climb in/out of. Liz's is the only 2nd floor room and she has the balcony and fire escape! Also, I think that't the first time I've ever seen Michael's door be locked!!

--Sean knew the second that Max walked into the CD b/c Liz lit up like a Christmas tree. He saw Liz's reaction and knew, even before he turned to look, that Max had arrived.

--Very convenient music change so that Max didn't have to fast dance Also, during their conversation, one thing he said sounds really odd to me. Liz says she saw him with Tess, and he says, "Saw me what with Tess?" I hate to even think this, but that sounds like she could have seen them in more than one type of activity. Not that the promo talk doesn't already have me going there (thye don't air the promos on my local affiliate), but it just sounded like a weird thing to say.

--Max heard T&K coming and looked up hopefully, then turned away when it wasn't Liz. Watch Kyle's face. He kind of sighs, and looks like he feels extremely bad for Max. And kind of like he wants to say something about it. It's another peculiarity that struck me

--The kiss. I've already speculated that it's a twisted version of Max's memory of his & Liz's first kiss. I think that Max stopped the candle session with Tess earlier b/c the kiss is what he remembered. I also think that his face changed when Tess leaned in and said she whispered in his ear. Actually, his body language changed altogether. He didn't hear Liz when she came out, though she wasn't any quieter than T&K. Also, the kissing just looks off. For example, the rain kiss and the classroom kiss in TLV both look like Max kissing, if you know what I mean. It's a different girl but Max is basically kissing the same way. But in HOM, it looks really stilted and mechanical. I don't get much of a chemistry vibe between these 2 in the above-noted kisses, but here it's absolutely dead. There's no feeling whatsoever. And finally, after the kiss, he looks utterly unhappy, and like he's thinking "WTF was I [i]thinking[i]?"

I have a few more thoughts that I'm going to cover in separate posts
~Tas

Last season Max could tell when Tess was mindwarping him. He would feel that his thoughts were forced on him. I wonder if Tess's mindwarping works more on him now that he is weaker?

Alien baby? Wow I am feeling a deja vu right now. My biggest problem with that is,... in order to have a baby you must....
please excuse me ::runs to bow to the porcelain god::
please tell me I will not have to witness that!! That will be the straw that breaks the camel's back!

Sean was nice but he seemed manipulative to me. It was subtle but it was there. Always being in the right place at Liz's dark moments. Does anyone else feel that way?

Gosh are any of these episodes going to make sense with the change up?

I feel that after HOM it is obvious who is going to die. Liz premonition + who is in attendence in the recent promo + and who is the most upset at the funeral. What do you guys think?

Kyle and Tess??? After the video and all.
I would like to submit the following to the WB. It is the definition of the word Continuity !!! Well I hope they can mke something good out of that.

Shiri really was awesome in this epi. I wished she could have been happier and more supportive of Max having memories. All of the max and Liz scenes were physically uncomfortable for me (except when they met at the crashdown )
Edited to say that Max needs to stop the brainwashing!! When Tess leans in that is when she gives max the key word to trigure his hypnotic state.

I, too, am curious about the M/T's "first kiss"...could somebody research M/L's first kiss? Was it how Tess describes it as their first kiss?

Ack! She's sucking out his memories!! :eek
(Run Max, Run!)

mako

First off, I think that SM took over from Max after the candlit memory-retrieval session. There was lots of emotion on his face when he was talking to Liz about the prom and his memories.

Then at the prom itself, a lot of people complained (disc. threads) that he didn't say anything when Liz looked at him in such pain. I think that was for several reasons. Partly it was the influence of SM on Max, if that makes any sense whatsoever (I'm operating on the principle that his mind is not wholly his own right now). Partly, I think, it was b/c he has never been able to bear causing Liz pain. To know that hanging on to the idea of them was so devastating to her, and knowing that he is not in a position where he can commit to her right now...there is a world of pain in Max's voice when he says her name. And when he tells her to go ahead, go to Maria, what he's really doing is letting her go.

I don't normally do this here, but it's short so I'm going to go ahead and you can all skip it if you like I wrote a poem about this moment from Max's POV.

Absolution

Shadowed moments
Trapped
In my own skin
Screaming for release

I sense your pain
I know its name
I breathe out
Absolution

The light shatters
Splintering
Razor shards
Piercing my soul

Just like the look
In your eyes.

~Tas

i don't really want to rehash the episode too much, the dreamer in me is still hurting and besides i'll just sound redundant to what everyone has been saying.

As much as it pain me to say it (cuz i still don't really believe it, i'm in denial) maybe it really is better for M/L to be apart for awhile (blech, blech, yuck, left an awful taste in my mouth:: ) cuz going back to a relationship at this point would just be disastrous. They'll be resentment on both sides and both M/L need to swipe the slate clean and make a fresh start into a relationship. I really want to believe this, but I'm not there yet.

Someone mentioned the books again, I was also thinking as Sean as the tv version of Adam. He makes Liz laugh and have fun and I believe that Liz said (in the books) that Adam made her feel special, ring a bell?

I'm also having a hard time accepting the complete 180 in the K/T relationship. WTF?! I dunno, but I am going to mention that after Kyle told Tess he saw her as a sister and Tess said she was disappointed and blah, blah, I kinda got the impression that she was just going along with whatever he was saying. Like she didn't want to disappoint him, you know? I don't really think she was disappointed he saw her as a sister, more like relieved so she could continue in her quest.

As for Max, he did look weird after the kiss with... you know. Like he felt guilty and confused, but the more I think about it, it would seem (and I fear this theory) that mayble he had remembered something and he was in shock cuz he couldn't believe it? Make sense? Maybe he remembered that T*** was pregnant in their other life, that's the only way I'll accept that tidbit the promo for the coming episodes left me picking my jaw off the floor. I couldn't get past that part, I barely remember what was said after that.

Ok, now for Liz (after all this is a Liz thread, duh!) I have mixed feelings so the only thing I'll say is that I'm glad the journal writing is back, that's the only thing that really made this seem like the old Roswell we all know and miss.

Roxy

Sorry I have been absent from this thread since the new episodes, but I've been busy learning how to edit video tape...

Anyhow, in reading all of your posts, Zero, Qfanny, Shapeshifter, et al I have to say you pretty much covered it all. Excellent as usual.

I do have one thing to add. I think that our questions to the set designers did in fact make an impact. Did anybody happen to notice Liz's blanket when she was writing in her journal? Methinks that the designers might have been sending us a Thank You -- or playing with us, I'm not sure....

Could there be any more triangles on this blanket????

And they thought we wouldn't notice....

One last thing I must add, congratulations to all of the mythers for not letting any of the negativity seep into this thread. What a pleasure and a relief to come here and find a negativity - free zone. It's just one of the many reasons why this remains my favorite place to post.

{~}:}

Sharing In The Groove

Notice the five stars above Tess's head??? Look at the alignment of them.

See, the set designers are giving us PROOF that something is wrong with Tess -- that she is not who she appears to be.

Thought you guys might like that one...

{~}:}

Sharing In The Groove

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
...WHERES MAX???????
I LOVE Max. I mean - yes - I am a Liz mythologist and I love Liz and hooray
for her journal thingy but I also LOVE Max and that was NOT Max. It was like
robot-boy. And an unhappy - sick looking robot boy. Max looked BAD and he
was just so emotionally absent. ...Hmmm...is this the ep Qfanny saw them shoot when JB had the flu? I know she said she had a flower from the coffin scene.

Some good catches:
quote:Originally posted by Alexis:
...Cards were mentioned again! Sean said “Sorry, I misread my cards.”...and: quote:Originally posted by peej:
hi
one thing I noticed was how max described his memory’s of everyone as been energy. Liz on silverhandprint refers to their relationship with that same word.

And I agree, I want to read the pregnant Tess line to be from Antar--that it was a shotgun (ray-gun? ) wedding.

I agree! I thought I might when I had to sit throw the scenes with Iz and Mikey G "making babies", but now Max and T!?!?

Oh yeah.. and

Or maybe not, afterall he did bowl...

just thinking out loud--

makoto

I have to wonder about that, too. Where did this guy come from? OK, so he's supposed to be Maria's "cousin", but it's just so random (and maybe convenient) don't you think? I like GraceKel's idea of maybe Sean being Nicholas! Could Nicholas have MRd Sean and used this body as the perfect "in"? I know Nick is floating around out there somewhere and it seems highly unlikely he'd just "disappear" after MITC!!!!

It would certainly make sense if Liz IS the key to the Granolith (and we know she is )! Nick would have to get close to her to get to the thing he wants to most...

About JB looking bad - I believe he was sick during the filming of CYN - KH was sick at the same time and she looked GREAT last night.
So - I think SM looked bad intentionally.

Sean - I definately think there is "more than meets the eye" because he does seem to have access to Liz's thoughts and he always knows where to be at what time. He could be the protector - I'd buy that.

The alien baby device. Well - just like last year - I do not believe that there actually IS going to be a baby (and if there was - wouldnt it be the season finale cliffhanger??)
And as for M/Tess sex - a long time ago I speculated that her "mission" was to mate with Max and produce an heir. I also speculated that she would have the ability to mate once and concieve (like the movie Species) - and afterwards - it would be "to hell with Max Evans". Now - look at her mindwarp/mindrape (ooops! I mean harmless memory retrieval sessions). She is feeding Max sexual images (I remember you pulling me to you at night , the first kiss, swimming in jello (swimming can be a subconcious metaphor for sex). I think she is TRYING to get Max to mate with her. I dont think he actually WILL. Because if he did - even just once - I do believe there would be a real pregnancy.

On the bright side - my wish for an evil Tess looks like it is coming through. Because - unless these memory retrieval sessions are genuine - then she is just unspeakably low and manipulative and

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
Where's Max???

It's interesting that there are a lot of people suspicious about Tess' role in all this memory retrieval and I am right there alongside you. Remember on Silverhandprint, she said she could continue doing what she was doing before without Nasedo? Perhaps we are about to find out what that is. She also said that her powers have become a lot stronger and that there was a temptation to use them in every day life. And finally, I believe she said she had learnt a lot from the Dupes, huh? I don't think they actually learnt very much at all from MITC unless there was a lot going on off screen that we were not let in on.

I will be re-watching for clues tonight. I certainly spotted in Wipeout, that the camera focussed on Tess after Nicholas told Max he always put his trust in the wrong people. Couldn't agree more Nicholas.

I always thought this was strange too, that she would say that she learned a lot from the dupes and that she was glad that they came into her life.huh?? They tried to kill Max, and for her to say that Nicholas always gets in the way. huh? These comments definitely doesn't sound like something you'd say about someone who has tried to kill you. I think something might've happened the night Max found Tess alone in that empty warehouse in MITC. That was a very strange scene, perhaps Lonnie and Nicholas got her alone of convinced her to help them, or maybe she was helping them all along. You know I wonder, who and what she and Nasedo knew before showing up in Roswell. Did they already know about Nicholas and the Dupes??? We know that Nasedo knew, because when he died in AN he told Max that the skins were in town, but what about Tess. I've also found it strange how she looked at CWW picture in Harvest. It was like she was trying to remember something: she didn't act as if she was still tramatized by kidnapping, she acted as if she was trying to remember it or perhaps remembering something something more about CWW.

Melodious1 - Yes I do find it strange that Tess is not inviting Michael and Isabel into the memory retrival sessions. Especially Michael, he has always be curious and eager to learn his past back on Antar. This does tend to shed more suspicion on the memory retrivials.

Meta ITA with the thanks to everyone for the negativity-free thread

Evid I was also laughing at the jello scene, but more b/c I felt kind of psychic. Do you remember how, in my fic Forging of a Lifebond, I had T&K explaining the mental shields to M&L in terms of jello, while the 4 of them were meditating, and that they chose that imagery b/c it related to how Tess thought of her mindwarping? I found the whole coincedence amusing

Ist42 posted a thought on Cherishing that I found intriguing. She said, what if the whole EOTW deal to prevent Tess from leaving was not so much b/c they needed to be a foursquare to win, but b/c in the other timeline Tess joined the other side? So they needed to prevent her from working against the other 3, more than making sure she was working with them.

And the look on Kyle's face when he sees Max has been driiving me batty. The lovely CD has a nice screencap

It occurred to me that perhaps Kyle thinks Max is so upset b/c Liz finally told him that she didn't sleep with Kyle. It looks to me like Kyle wants to go say something, but doesn't b/c Tess goes over (wish it had been Kyle). Anyway, if that is what Kyle thinks and he does go to talk to Max about it, he'd prob. do the same kind of thing as with his proclamation to Tess and speak his whole piece before letting Max say anything. Which would mean that Max knows Liz lied, just not why.

I realize that this is seriously wishful thinking, but I am convinced that Kyle seems to want to say something here, and I know that Max is going to know the truth by season's end. So I figured I'd share
~Tas

Not only does Max say, "You did it! You made me remember!" But when he's talking to Michael at the beginning of the ep he says, "For some reason Tess is the clearest." 2 : either b/c she's the one mindwarping him, or b/c the energy he's remembering isn't hers but is Liz's.
~Tas

Grace Kel – I did think about Sean being Nicko – assuming Nicko could shapeshift – but we have had so many transient bad guys, I wanted to view him as a good person given that he is presented as a bad Juvenile delinquent. Being the protector would cut against the initial face-value presentation of Sean. AND it would keep your S theory going.

Oh – and I did have the same reaction to Sean discussing how Liz helped make him feel at home for the first time. So – It must be so!

Interesting about the Buddhist connection – I’ve always wondered why Harding and Tess made such a big deal and had all those antiques! It would be a nice tie in to that.

Welcome KatieK - - And this is a flame free zone! We try to respect everyone’s opinion, because how someone views something may open others’ eyes to something new – a new twist on things. But we are Liz-centrict, and very Dreamer friendly. And I tend - on reflection – to agree that I can see how the initial physical attraction of the two (K & T) could evolve into a family relationship – also considering Kyle’s change and Buddhist studies. He is not a Jock of yester-year.

On – the memory retrieval stuff – I do agree that Max’s status as King might convey more powers on him, but he rarely uses this “right” and it seems that Iz and Mikey G would want to “try” to tap into their abilities. We really don’t know what any of them are capable, except that their powers are totally human according to Harding. – assuming we can trust him. I just would have like a line somewhere that indicated that Iz and Mikey G were also working on this ability or had decided not to retrieve it. When Max and Mikey G were walking together and chatting about it would have been a perfect time. ??

I think I can explain the age thingy – when they were young, they “picked” a BD. Iz pick one in the fall and Max (who seem less mature to his adoptive parents) picked one in the spring. Iz turned 18 last fall, and Max does this spring (sorry – my laptop is being serviced so I don’t have my dates on the tip of my fingers). And great catch on the Ivy! Just like on the Duprees gate! Oh – and like Qfanny’s take on Iz being a “closet scholar” which does go with her keeping up appearances.

Fman – I never thought about the pregnancy being a past one! Good catch. I was just so caught up in the inducing moments, that I just jumped to the “present” conclusion. Plus, previews can be very misleading!

Esthreterestial – welcome

Qfanny – that is such a wonderful picture of Shiri! And she is holding the Liz Inportance to the Alien Mythology Intro! I appreciate you and Charmed Kitten and anyone else involved SOOO much! :thumps_up: I also really liked how Liz and Sean had fun a friendly, carefree way! Glad to know you are a “Bug” women too! And I thought Valenti and Amy were adorable! I loved how Kyle and Maria talked about their raging hormones – that was very cute!

Tas – I’m lost without my laptop – I’m using my old, dreadfully slow computer, and don’t have my list of dates on this one – so thanks for filling me in!

I’ve got to go to a all-day meeting with my partners (boring) – so I will have to finish reading then. And, of course, I will post more then !

Zero
I Shall (continue to and always) Believe!

I didn't think it was a 180. I think that We Are Family suggested that he thought of Tess as his sister. He did say "You are part of the family I was trying to protect." So I saw that coming. I agree-she didn't look too disapointed. I think she was about to tell him that she wasn't interested in him as anything other than a friend.

As for the "alien baby" I think that happened in their past lives-like Mi and Is. Past Zan got Past Ava pregnant-just like it says in the Destiny book. (I'm so UNSPOILED! this is not based on fact. it's just a theory)My biggest problem was that Max is unable to distinguish himself as Max Evans from his past self Zan, King of Antar. Well I guess their marriage wasn't arranged and they weren't killed on their wedding day (darn!) but I was also wondering how he knew for sure that the woman he loved was Tess if he could only feel her energy. I too, thought it might be Liz's energy. Though I do not believe Liz is an , I agree that souls can transcend time and place. And Zara gave us the lovely example of Lois and Clark, whose souls knew each other long before their bodies did.

About Isabel being a year older than Max—she’s only 5 months older, right? Her birthday is in October, Max’s is in March. Although we all know the dates are screwy.

[b]Quote by KatieK
Also, this is kind of a side note...and may be unimportant. There was some discussion about Liz's jacket and the ivy and the ivy's symbolism. On Juanita's house, there was some kind of tile of an ivy design or something. Did anyone else notice this? Does it mean anything.

I just noticed this last night! I thought: Aha! There’s ivy again!

metaphysicalgrl When I saw the screencaps of Liz and the blanket I thought the same thing. Looks like they are listening Do ya think they'll come soon and look at all the stuff you guys are coming up with?

Am I one of those few people who actually didn't mind the jacket? I thought it looked kinda cute on Liz/Shiri anybody?

Roxy

p.s. sorry i don't have anything useful to add, but in order to do that I'd have to rewatch the episode and my heart is not up to that yet

Okay, since you guys are obviously *way* stressed out, I come bearing gifts. Aren't I so nice? LOL. I especially got this picture for the Dreamers out there. It's from the WB Media site, so that means the public usually doesn't see it. But I thought it might make you guys happy. =)

A beautiful pic, which is the first clear look at Liz's corsage. It's NOT white roses. I thought it was, but I couldn't ever get a good look at it and my VCR gives everything an slightly reddish cast so I thought that was it. Can anyone tell what kind of flowers they are? They look like red sweeetheart roses, with some kind of white flowers as well plus baby's breath (I think it's against the law not to have baby's breath ). Any ideas as to the significance? Max, Kyle & Tess definitely all have white roses, Alex & Isabel have red, Liz seems to have both? I'm now But I the pic!
~Tas

I've just re-watched MITC, nothing new to report on the suspect Tess behaviour. Just the usual, strange facial expressions she makes when Lonnie is asking Max if he has ever heard of the granilith. She seemed worried that he might give something away. I thought she seemed really excited about the possibility of going 'home'. I also couldn't understand why she agreed with Max about not trusting Lonnie and Rath and then asked him why he lied to them about the granilith. Well duh!

I am still puzzled about Rath's treatment of her. Is this just because she looks like Ava, and that was Ava's role within the group? Or was it to throw Max off any suspicion of complicity? I am more and more wondering if Nasedo swapped Tess and Ava, because she was more to his liking, i.e. less human. Ava really sticks out like a sore thumb and I can't get over Lonnie's comment to Ava 'who are you, and why are you still living and breathing?' - substitute for the real bride perhaps? Could explain why she never felt that Zan loved her and why she felt he was waiting for someone else. I am sorry, but for all her power, Tess was subdued by Rath's hand over her mouth? I think not.

Correction on TEOTW. Liz definately said she was 'dying' when Max brought her back, not that she had died, which is what she said to Kyle in that episode.

So here's the key question - does T remember a time with Max/Zan on Antar when it felt like he was "looking for someone else"? Of course, we all know that Zan was either looking for Liz or a Liz-dupe (Serena?) , but what about T and Max? Will it be the same effect?

--We've all been as to why Michael esp. doesn't want in on the memory-retrieval sessions. But, all Max says to Michael is that he's remembering things--he doesn't actually say how! He doesn't initially say anything to Liz about it either, until she brings it up at prom. It's possible that Michael & Isabel don't even know that he's doing these sessions with Tess. UnMaxlike, but that's the norm right now so it wouldn't surprise me.

--The dink who keeps bugging Kyle about Tess is Malamud (sp. in the credits ). The first time, look at the top left corner of the R on his school jacket. He's wearing an oddly feminine pin that looks like a stylized sun. It's a plain gold disk with a small white pearl in the centre, and 4 "rays", to the NW, NE, SE, SW. Normally we associate the sun with Max, but I have absolutely no idea how Kyle realizing he thinks of Tess as his sister helps Max out! (I believe that's Malamud's sole purpose as a character, to force that realization on Kyle.)

--When Kyle opens the door to Tess' room to ask her to prom, behind the door leaning against the wall is a crutch. Just one, not a pair, and it's at a length that's much too tall for Tess. To the best of my knowledge, the last time any Valenti needed crutches was when Kyle broke his ankle, and that was well over a year ago, so why is it out now? And why only one???

--I can't believe no one has mentioned this! Kyle's tux vest is green diamonds And Malamud's bowtie is red diamonds!

--When Kyle & Tess go in the Eraser Room (or whatever), Tess seems very nervous to have him close to her until after he's said she's a sister. While she [i[]says[/i] she's disappointed, she looks relieved. She also looks completely surprised by the hug.

--During their dance, after Liz says that maybe they should let go and there's this long silence, Max opens his mouth like he's about to say something and Liz shakes her head, and he closes his mouth. That's when those lines, "I think of you night and day/I never know just what you meant to say" play in the background, and then Liz sees Maria and Max tells her to go ahead. I think he might have said something if she hadn't stopped him; no what though.

--Kyle's book, "The Budha advises on Relationships," is by Ali Belson.

If I manage to find anything else I'll let you know!
~Tas

Roxy

I heard that in 1948 there was another supposed ufo crash in New Mexico. It "happened" in Aztec New Mexico. I haven't read too much about it, but I read that the "ship" was completely intact and had landed purposefully.

I'm not saying that this actually happened. but I think it would be neat to fit it into the mythology. I know the skins said they came in 1950, so maybe they could say the other aliens came back in 1948 to bring the granolith or try to find the first ship. Lots of possibilities.

Just a piece of info a friend told me about. Here is a website with a little bit of info. http://aztecufo.com/crash.htm

It's WR's fanfic at: http://www.olde.worlde.btinternet.co.uk/wrfanfic.html

ok two more thoughts...
Max's hair is different and maybe they are distancing Kyle and Tess because she will be evil and he is a good guy. ::shrugs shoulders:: I don't know.

that's all for now.

Season 2 Episode 16: Heart of Mine

Season 1 Episode 16: Crazy

Coincidence? I think not! So I guess for future reference we can note that everything goes to hell in a handbasket at episode 16.

CC random comments :

For the first time ever, the CC worked for me on Roswell. I picked some CC comments that were not said by the actors.

- When Tess and Max are hugging because Max remembered something and Liz sees them, Tess says : "This is just the beginning" after Max's "You made me remember". Interesting...
- when they all laugh all of a sudden before taking the picture, Sean would have said with a funny voice : "Take the picture, Mr. No Prom"

I think this sheds some interesting light, don’t you?

Also, here are some cut scenes:

- Amy secretly signs Jim up to be a chaperon with her
for the prom. He protests that he's been on the force
for more than 20 years and he won't subject himself to
guarding the punch bowl! But, of course, he ends up
being chaperon.
-There is a funny scene where Amy and Jim are fooling
around at the Valenti home and she tells him she
signed him up as a fellow chaperone for the prom and
when someone arrives home (Kyle) Amy dives behind the
bar to hide. Kyle has this quickie conversation with
his dad about why he is feeling odd about asking Tess
to the prom and his father says that despite all the
pros v. cons he's stated that Kyle should be with her
or anyone if it will mean something to him(essentially) not because she's hot (Kyle's words NOT Jim's). Kyle say "okay" and then "Hi Mrs. DeLuca." It's pretty funny, because, just from looking at Jim's shirt which was haphazardly buttoned when Kyle walked in, Kyle KNEW Amy was there hiding all along.

- So of course, Jim Valenti catches Kyle and Tess in the
Eraser Room and Kyle tries to explain that nothing was
happening, but Jim just says "OUT!!" Things of course
heat up between Amy and Jim in there afterward

Please, please, PLEASE let that mean that whatever happens between the 2 of them next week is the continuation of her manipulations!!! And I think it's kind of sad that they cut all the Untuckables scenes--I mean, Jim didn't even have any lines left! They were adorable nonetheless in their limited screentime, though

If these lines still appeared in the CC but weren't actually spoken, they must have been last-minute cuts.

Speaking of cuts, MissLParker, you're right, Max may have had a line there (in the dance) that was cut b/c of the switch. But I tend to think not, mainly b/c of the music. One thing that's consistently used excellently on Roswell is the music, and the background lines just fit in so well there that I think it was deliberate. Also...what is there he can say? He has to resolve the issue with Tess before he and Liz can truly be a couple, or the spectre will always be there. And Max loves Liz too much to ask her at that point to just hang on when he now knows, unequivocably, that he'd be ripping her heart out. He can't do it. So, there's nothing for him to say, or to do, except actually let her go. Which we all know is temporary, but Max needs to figure that out on his own. After he's exorcised Stepford Max, of course
~Tas

In Balance, when Max and Liz are waiting for Riverdog, and talking, Max says that he and Isabel could both feel someone else, and it turned out to be Michael. Why didn't they feel Tess? Even if she was still in her pod, why didn't they sense her at all? It could have been any of them, but if she was Max's bride on Antar, why didn't he at least feel her? I know that there's that flash later, in an episode I haven't gotten to yet, where Max goes back and looks at Tess, but it's after Tess has arrived, and mindwarped him. So, this memory of Tess could be a mindwarp.

Also, Tasyfa's comments on the background music on Roswell being particularly fitting triggered something this afternoon while I was watching TLV. In that scene where Max, Isabel, and Michael are talking about Tess, the song playing in the background is called "Voodoo". A good bit of the song played out because that was a pretty long scene; it continued when Valenti was giving them back the orb. The loudest words playing from "Voodoo" were I'm not the one who's so far away/ when I feel the snake bite enter my vein / I never want to be here again/ and I don't remember why I came.

Maybe I'm completely off with this, but since this Max/Tess thing is sort of front and center right now, I thought I'd throw in my two cents.

Excellent observations Tasyfa! I too get no chemistry vibe between Max and Tess. Maybe it is the actors, but it just isn’t there for me either. Liked you poem, too!!

Miss L Parker – I agree about the comment Tess makes Re: “that isn’t important” when Max tells her he is taking Liz to the Prom. I thought it ranked up there with her comment to Liz when they were in the back of the jeep in Harvest and discussing Liz sleeping with Max. Very unemotional and callus when it comes to relationships of other people. If Tess is mindwrapping Max – it may be that she is better at it than she was a year ago. Remember, they have all been working on their powers, and supposedly have greatly improved them over the last year. So, Max may be in a weakened state, but also, Tess may be more powerful and skillful at mind manipulation. My question – IF Tess is mindwrapping Max, and maybe Buddha Boy (Kyle ), why isn’t she doing the same to Liz to get rid of her? I remember Tess’ comment in the Jeep last year about being able to trick Max into loving her (can’t remember the exact quote), but that it won’t last or something like that because of his love for Liz. Well, now I’m wondering if Liz has developed (unbeknownst to herself) the ability to keep Tess from mindwrapping her and view reality more clearly. (Does that make sense?) Oh – and I do agree that Sean came off a bit manipulative, too, but it didn’t bother me as much because he was helping Liz through a difficult period. Of course, if I find he is a cohort of Tess – then he will be scum of the Earth – but for now, I like to think of him as serving as a bit of a protector. Of course, as I mentioned before – I too said that Max sleeping with Tess would be a final straw for me (last season), I’m so wrapped up in this show that I will watch to see why/how this (if it is this) could have possibly happen. I will destroy Max’s character in my mind though! The kissing was bad enough, but … I agree with the “who will die” thought, but I could be wrong on that one – but it does appear pretty obvious! Did I miss something while I was gone? Did the WB have a Tess/Kyle video?? Now that is dumb considering the first episode back the two are acting like siblings – yuck! Did they also have a Iz/Alex video? (Of course, the poor stargazers have has little to cheer about this season, too!

Makoto 14 – I don’t know if anyone has responded to you yet, but Max and Liz’s first kiss was at the end of Heatwave, and though it was the night after the party (remember, she ended up in jail with Alex), it was very similar to the description of Tess. Plus, there is the almost Kiss at the party – remember Liz commented about hoping they wouldn’t explode – then Kyle interrupted them. Ummm….

Sunrise – know you can always come here for support, and great theories trying to explain what is going on and why it will all work out in the end – eternal optimists that we are! The clues always lead Liz and Max back together! I was the one who thinks of Sean as the TV version of Adam – and I remember that at one point in the book I liked Adam a lot more than Max because of what Max was putting Liz through – sound familiar?? I agree that Tess looked more relieved than anything – look at how she rolls her eyes and lets out a big breathe.

Met – HI! I did notice the blanket – and thought the same thing you did. I looks Native American – but it is loaded with designs! I’m so proud, too (do I sound like a mom or what) of how positive this thread has remained in light of the inducing potential. I lurked on the Gen Discussion thread, and WOW – that was scary. I truly believe if you focus on the BIG Picture and search for the small details – the storyline will be fun and satisfying – taken at face value, I would be sad and mad , too! Great clue from the set designers – and the director who had to plan the shot.

Thanks Nemo for the link. I knew that Shiri had made this movie last summer, that is why I knew she could dance. So, that scene was wonderful and beautiful to watch!

Steph – not only is Nicko cruising around out there somewhere, but so are Lonnie (with her cards to play), Rath and Ava. I can’t believe we have seen the last of them this season. Ummmm….

StarBox – ITA – need I say more? Even Harding made the comment that gave the impression that it was Max’s duty to have sex with Tess!

Huggybehr – how can you stand to read all this and not get to watch it! I agree that interview was very strange!

BTW – on the lighter side – do these two know what Jello is made out of?? If they did – someone told me once, and I’ve never been able to eat it again – they definitely wouldn’t what to be swimming in it! :lol

Tas – I’ve always thought that Tess joining the other side might have been what occurred in timeline #1, and that was why she had to stay around and not feel rejected by Max. I think Kyle’s reaction is – “Oh Sh@#, not that Max guy again – he is always screwing up my life and taking the girls in my life away from me! First Liz, now Tess!”

Alexis – you are currect that Iz is only months older – not more.

Sunrise – Liz’s jacket is not my style, but it looks cute on her. I did not mind it. It is a lot better than the mass quantity of black leather we have been seeing all season! Plus, .. Oh, never mind – I don’t want to get on a fashion bent/rant.

Tas – THANK YOU! What a gorgeous Prom Picture!! So, they at least made it to picture time! (though they are usually done early on) We have to have that part of our regular picture group – Star Box??? And great additional observations!

Sleepybehr – I think it would be neat if there were other “confirmed” visits. It would make sense.

Miss L Parker – I’m not totally clear on what the episode change around was for, but I had heard that they wanted a 2 hour finale, and only got one – so maybe they pull a “weaker” episode to the story arch, and moved it so they could us it to flesh out the finale. Does that make sense? Though there were some CHADS in HOM – I didn’t think it was any worse than most of this Season. I was able to explain away many of the CHADS – so, the episode that was pulled must not of added that much. Episode 16 seems to be the beginning of the final arch??

Cosmic Candy – Welcome

Alexis – thanks for the CC and cut scenes. I wondered why there wasn’t more Valenti and Amy – they were so cute!

Audrey – Many of us have raised concerns about the fact that the description that Max gives of the “hatching” pre-Tess is very different than the memories of the hatching post-Tess. I think that is why Iz runs from the pod chamber – because she “knows” that what she is “seeing” is being implanted and not how it truly was. Feel free to bring in Seaon 1 episode discussions because it is often relevant to our thoughts now!

Well – I’ve rambled enough – and spent way too much time on the computer! See you all later. I’m a Felicity fan, so am very excited it is finally back! Though – my favorite there has always be Noel, and I lost my obsession when he got so shafted last year – but that is for another thread!

Zero
I Shall (continue to and always) Believe!

Some of this is probably far-fetched - but at the least, I thought it was an entertaining theory, and would give you some ideas. At the very very least, it will make a great fanfic.

All of this suggestion of mindwarps and the like has got me thinking. Always dangerous. But, if you think about it, the most REAL PROOF we have ever had that Tess is the fourth Royal comes from 'Four Square' and the eps surrounding it. Those episodes were the first to introduce the idea of mindwarping. So now I wonder if we can really accept that Tess is the fourth podster.

My theory works on three basic assumptions:

1) Tess is not necessarily the fourth Royal.

2) Lots of seeming loose ends could be down to mindwarps or the like conflicting with reality.

3) If Tess is not the missing Royal, who is? This is the Liz Myth thread so I don't think I'll be surprising anyone here...

Arguments that Tess may not necessarily be the fourth Royal

1) Our assumptions that Tess is the fourth podster comes almost exclusively from 'Four Square'. Nesado seemed convinced, but that does not mean he was right? The only apparent evidence for Tess being the missing podster was from the final scenes of 'Four Square'. If you watch that scene carefully, lots of things can change meaning. Max, supposedly because of Tess' arrival in Roswell and the alignment of the 'V' constellation, suddenly remembers a lost memory of their (his, Michael's, and Isabel's) birth from the pods. But this memory (I'm sure this was mention above somewhere by somebody) does not concur with the story Max tells Liz in 'The Balance'.

In that story, Max said he and Isabel found each other first - then going on to tell of Michael revealing his presence to them - implying they woke and left the cave one at a time. In Max's later 'memory', all three leave the cave together, leaving what looked like Tess behind. But what is to say that it was a real memory? In the days prior to this, Tess has used her powers to mindwarp or control Max on at least 3 occasions, and possibly sent him dreams as well. I'm not adverse to the idea that Mi/I dreams and the ones Max has of her were planted by her.

Couldn't she have 'given' him the memory, letting him see what she wanted him to see, that she had been in the fourth pod? In his memory, we see Max aged six hesitate, unwilling to leave the fourth, unopened, pod. But all of Max's behaviour in these episodes does not support the idea that as a child he would have been upset at leaving her. He never pined for her like Isabel pined for Michael all the time they were apart. He only had eyes for Liz. He would only be reluctant to leave the pod if it was not Tess in the pod. And considering that his story to Liz earlier doesn't tally, it is entirely possible that the whole lost 'memory' was a fake.

2) There are other things about this scene. When Max first begins to see what we are meant to think is a lost memory, it is solid darkness. When he comes to, it is not only getting light but is full daylight. Real memories take only seconds to compute. Mind control could take any amount of time (think of hypnotism). And Max looked very strange - almost stoned. Very similar to the look after the infamous 'kiss' in HOM. Not only have we lost some time, but Max looks confused, zombie-like.

When Michael and Isabel come running in on the scene, Michael's first words are "What are you doing to him? To us?" That sounds like a good question, although at the time it could be taken to mean a great many things. Max is the one who says "She's one of us," - but his statment is based on the 'memory' he has just retrieved. And if the memory was false...you know where I'm going with this...

3) Of course, we have the Mom-O-Gram to consider. Again, this may or may not be real. Quite likely, based on the existence of the Skins etc, it was real. But as we know, a fifth person (I don't mean Nesado here) was standing right there. When the Mom-O-Gram said "Your young bride," who is to say she is talking about Tess?

4) Moving onto the 'Destiny' book, the other apparent piece of evidence for Tess being the fourth...it is hazy at best what we know about the book itself. The book may be a fake - either a mindwarp or more likely a forgery - after all, it was Tess who got it from the library, and we have no idea who put it there, although we expect mostly that it was Nesado - or it might be real, but we don't know what it really says. It might be authentic but have been altered along the line. If it is a fake, there may be a real one out there - one which might not point to Tess, which is why she was so interested in showing the others this one.

As far as the idea of mindwarps are concerned, it would explain Max's sudden turnabout in trusting Tess. At the end of Season 1, he would barely look at her. Suddely in Season 2 (check out WO, MITC) he is pally, supportive, touchy, behaves as if he has known her all his life. Maybe he is being influenced into accepting Tess.

If Tess isn't the REAL fourth Royal, who is?

1) Liz, of course. I know lots of people like the idea that she is one hundred percent human, and that Max will choose to be with her etc, and I really like theories where she is human, too - but then I like any theory where she is supposed to be with Max, for whatever reason! Here, I'm assuming that she would be the missing fourth.

2) I have always fixated on the idea that Max seemed to almost recognise Liz in the playground the first time he saw her. It was love at first sight. Six year olds don't generally get obsessed with members of the opposite sex in that kind of way unless they know them. And Liz knew to look up just when she did - she sensed him - and she was instantly captivated, too.

3) Of course we know that Liz has displayed no signs of powers in her earlier life, as the others have. But in 'Summer of 47', we saw what looked like it might be a leaking pod. Maybe the ooze was just natural, and none were damaged...but, if one was damaged, and it was hers, it would account for her not having powers until Max healed her and 'changed' her.

4) Ava spoke of the feeling that Zan was always waiting for someone else to come into his life. That speaks for itself.

5) We don't know how long Liz' family have been in Roswell. Alright, in 'the Pilot', in the first scene, she says 'Only four generations' - but she was talking to Larry and Jennifer, tourists, and through most of this scene she was lying through her teeth to tourists. Her parents could have adopted her before moving to Roswell. I'm sure there could be other explanations that would work, too. Like maybe someone knew what (Nesado? someone else?) was planning, swapping in Tess for Liz, and woke her from the pod early, as a newborn, and gave her to the Parkers.

6) TEOTW needn't be a stopper to this little theory. If Tess can mindwarp, couldn't FTess, from the sidelines, have mindwarped FMax and FLiz into the plan they undertook, going back to change it? She might have been hoping to create a timeline more favourable to her.

I could go on forever about Liz showing signs of being more than special but these are enough to get the point across. Just a couple of miscellaneous bits:

1) Tess has powers, like the three original Royals. It would indicate she is one of the 4. But most of the aliens on the show have had powers - she could be anything.

2) The Dupes. I'm going to assume that in this crazy universe I'm inventing Tess is either innocent and being manipulated by someone else, or is working with someone else. The someone else (maybe Nesado) not only used Tess to take Liz's place, but killed of the Dupe Liz early on and replaced her with Ava. The NY set grew up thinking Ava belonged with them, possibly including Ava herself. (I'd like to think Ava is innocent, I really like her)

I've written this assuming that if this theory were true Tess would be the enemy - but it could just as easily work assuming that an outside source were only using Tess, and that she herself wass innocent.

Like I said, it's just a bit of fun - I don't know how much of it stands up to inspection! But if any of you get new ideas from it, I'll feel I've done some good. Sorry it was so, so long!

Season 2 Episode 16: Heart of Mine

Season 1 Episode 16: Crazy

Coincidence? I think not! So I guess for future reference we can note that everything goes to hell in a handbasket at episode 16.

No joke! I was thinking about this last night.

Season One. Episode 15. "Sexual Healing." Dreamers are pleased. New episodes of Roswell go on a six-week hiatus.

Season Two. Episode 15. "Viva Las Vegas." Dreamers are pleased. Roswell goes on a six-week hiatus.

Season One. Episode 16. "Crazy." Tess shows up and all hell starts to break loose.

Season Two. Episode 16. "Heart of Mine." Utterly confusing crap and all hell breaks loose.

What's in store for the future? Let's see...

Season One. Episode 17. "Tess, Lies, and Videotape." Tess wreaks more havoc but Max professes his love to Liz. The gang finds out something about Tess--she is not who she appears to be...

Season Two. Episode 17. Perhaps the past will repeat itself once again...

-fallen

-fallen

Well well. I did write to the futon critic and I email him this pm. I then emailed a group I belong to to share my thoughts because I really didn't think Brian would want my type of writing. Well, someone liked it so much they posted it on the WB boards, so if you want to read it, here's the link. I suppose I'll never be published now.
http://talk.thewb.com/read.php?f=1&i=87087&t=87087

Tas , how many times do you have to watch HOM until it is no longer sad? I am on my third helping and I am still choking on it.

Ok I know I said this before but I thought that Max's hair looked wierd. He usually combs it forward and it was off to the side with a more exposed forehead and kind of rigid. Was it just like that for the prom or was it like that for the candle lit mindwarp?

I have seen the new promo, but I will only discuss it if everyone wants to. (Respecting the culture right Meta )
I have a lot of questions about both promos.

Oh BTW, where does the reference of Stepford Max come from? I missed that.

I have to say that I love it here.

shapeshifter Great idea on the crutch symbolizing Kyle! I was feeling pretty smart, getting quoted so much!

Xenutia Some great ideas

I Shall Believe
~Tas

Well well. I did write to the futon critic and I email him this pm. I then emailed a group I belong to to share my thoughts because I really didn't think Brian would want my type of writing. Well, someone liked it so much they posted it on the WB boards, so if you want to read it, here's the link. I suppose I'll never be published now.
http://talk.thewb.com/read.php?f=1&i=87087&t=87087

OMG THAT WAS BEAUTIFUL

Qfanny, how eloquently you put into words the feelings that we all have about the show.

Thanks for sharing that with the world....

{~}:}

This particular capture does remind me of a rattlesnake head. Ick!

The large center stone looks like either an opal or mother-or-pearl perhaps. Notice how there are four parts to the clasp holding the one large stone in place. The four podsters with Liz at the center? Yep, redhawk can read into almost anything.

[/B]

hey again,
I think I might be grabbing at straws here, but here goes...
*where the necklace rests on Liz's neck*
The current TIME Magazine features an article on Yoga. According to the article, there are 7 Major ENERGY Hubs (aka Chakras.) The hub where the center of the Liz's necklace is would be her Throat Chakra. Throat Chakras deal with "the ether, self-expression, energy and endurance." I keep seeing the necklace as a symbol because it stands out so much against her long, dark dress. Just a quick look at the image (thanks for the pic, Redhawk) it looks like a bird's nest with 1 single egg. Maybe Birth or Re-birth for Liz? Because it's resting on one of her chakras I think it could represent Liz's rebirth or she's being re-"energized". (That's why she needs to be apart from Max for a while.) Yoga is a journey to unite mind & body to attain bliss or total spiritual freedom. Obviously Liz's mind/sense of being has been fryed due to all the emotional turmoils- she needs to take a moment to just *breathe* again. (Yoga reduced to it's essentials is deep breathing & stretching.) She was libereated by the dancing in the bowling alley.

And as for Max...he told Micheal that he remembered them more as "energy" than actually having physical bodies. Yet when Max was trying to "remember" (yeah right) with Tess's help, he expressed everything he remembered as if he had a physical body; Tess's actions can back this up. She remembers when he would touch her back in the middle of the night, when he would hold her, he touched her cheek, etc. Now I don't know about you, but I don't understand "ENERGY" as something that can hold something. I'm no scientist, but I vaguely remember from school that energy is transformed from one state to another, it is"a power supply or source: a supply or source of electrical, mechanical, or other form of power" (Encarta Reference online) well, enough of my confused random thoughts.

Max after kissing Tess on HOM.

I'm sure glad my hubby doesn't look like that after we kiss, what a low blow to Tess's ego. It looks like Max might puke right along with the rest of us.

So RBI's, do you think Max looks a little mind warped on both caps?

Evid

you're just too funny (lol)

obious - just wanted to let you know that we have an entire section in the Intro on Chakras! So, this fits right in. Thanks, and welcome!

I tape Felicity - my other, though not as intense, obsession - so I taped the Roswell preview, and it is pretty intense. Feel free to discuss! I guess we now know who died! We also now know that the aliens and humans look to not be "standing together" after this one!

Qfanny - I'm off to read you post before I sleep - I'm sure it is wonderful!

Once and Again was also depressing so I need to sleep - too many tears recently! (I also watched Buffy which was a tear-jerker last night - and yes, I do have a life I just don't sleep much these days!)

Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!

I need help! I am starting to seriously weaken and about to give in to spoilers I just don't know if I can take the heartbreak as it comes slowly, I almost rather get it over with now in one gulp I wouldn't be able to speculate with you all, but at least I could see for myself what you all say pans out. I just need 1 incredibly good reason not too, rather the best you can throw at me and we'll see if i resist or not. Help

Evid

Hi Zero, I was actually with you up to DB, but I no longer have access to the episodes you are seeing. However, in the UK, we've just seen MITC so I'll catch up soon enough. It's interesting watching these episodes knowing what's coming up so I'm looking even more for clues that I may have missed first time around, when the pain was more raw. They seem like a walk in the park now compared to what's happening currently

GraceKel, the clicking in the warehouse scene with Tess and Max was really obvious to me and I wondered if it was a sign that something 'alien' is happening? Alien activities on the show are always accompanied by some strange sound effect. Perhaps Tess is being controlled by someone from this point onwards, or something was triggered in her brain by whatever Lonnie and Rath did to her?

Season 2 Episode 16: Heart of Mine

Season 1 Episode 16: Crazy

Coincidence? I think not! So I guess for future reference we can note that everything goes to hell in a handbasket at episode 16.

I noticed the parallel too, but as I recall things started going downhill from TLV and culminated with a big revelation at the pod chamber. Perhaps we'll have another big revelation at the pod chamber, which shows mom-o-gram was a fake or Tess isn't who she thinks she is?

At the end of season one, Max and Co.'s enemies had the devices that alerted them to their presense on Earth. Being that the case, is there a significance to the number five, as it was the number of lights the device had. I ask this because I wonder if each of those lights stands for a different person. If so, who's the fifth?

And, likewise, what's the significance of the fifth "star," Venus, in the V-constellation??

(Shrugs) Any theories that you've already come up with are invited, because I get a strange feeling every time I see something else alluding to "five," as they've made four, so far, the "orthodox number" (such as the "four-square" symbol, and "there are supposed to be four," etc).

I still can’t believe they announced who died on the Roswell promo. I knew before but I’m still in shock that they announced it!

Also - the rebels have this obsession with "the bus" - they are always saying "the bus is coming for Liz" (or to hit Liz - I dont really get it) - Anyway - they mean that "tesstiny" will catch up with her. I found it to be a possible in-joke that in HOM Liz MISSED a bus. I mean - who takes a city bus to school anyway???
It may LOOK like Max and Tess are going to be together - but Liz MISSED the bus.

Re: Can Tess mindrape as well as mindwarp?
Yes she can - in ARCC when Tess made Christmas dinner she made a point of telling Kyle she made his favorite potatoes. Kyle says "wow - and the cheese is melted just the way I like it" and Tess says "I Know". I immediately took that as a HUGE clue that she can mindrape. Maybe finding out how someone likes their potatoes is harmless - but its still the same power.
Mark my words. Tess is a mindraper.
But - this brigs us to an EXCELLENT question - I forget who posted it -
WHY HASNT TESS MINDWARPED OR RAPED LIZ????
We know she has mindwarped or mindraped Isabel, Max, Michael, Kyle, CW, Duff and Nicolas.
Why not Liz? I think the speculation that she CANT is a really good one. But why cant she??? She can obviously mindwarp/rape podsters and skins and humans - but not Liz.

Re: Stepford Max
There is a hilarious movie called The Stepford Wives (starring Don Johnson is his YOUNG days) about a town where they turn all the women into "Stepford Wives" - they all become like mindless robots - who live to serve their husbands.

Zero - I will stop watching if Max actually has sex with Tess. Mindwarp sex or dream sex (like Isabel and Michael last year) is okay - Stepford Max sex may even be okay (The kiss didnt bother me because it was Stepford Max) - but consensual Max-in-control-of-his-faculties sex - that will surely never happen (but if it did - I would stop watching)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
Wheres Max?

A couple of other things I question--the bowling alley---are those SKYSCRAPERS on the wall of the bowling alley or am I crazy? Anyone think of NY? Thats what it reminded me of a city setting of tall buildings hmmm???
Also the bowling alley setting---in ARCC Jim and Kyle are watching BOWLING on television when Tess sits down in front of the tv to get their attention---whats the connection here if any--why are we revisiting bowling again?

Audrey--many of the things you have mentioned from past episodes yes we have discussed b4 but it always adds to the fun when someone else comes posting the very same things they picked out--gives us more credibility I think.

Huggybehr--I am so glad you noticed this CLICKING too. As for noises I agree with you--in FOURSQUARE when Tess is hanging over Max while he sleeps---there is this very distinct noise--it sounds like machinery shifting or something---its not the same exactly as the clicking--but a distinct sound just the same--and Max has that vision again of he and Tess standing in front of those symbols on the ground hmmmm? Well its just got to mean something-don't know what yet but something.

Aldebaron---once a promo runs on television whether people have seen it or not---you can talk about it because they are not spoilers anymore--its on public television!!! I haven't seen it yet but would love to hear your thoughts I am sure I will see it soon enough.

Starbox--interesting on the necklace--can't figure the necklace out-but when I look at it -it reminds me of something Native American.
Geez how stupid of me totally missing the bus thing--will have to think about that one for awhile.
MissLParker--your comments about Tess telling Max thats not whats important hmmmm and Zero I agree it DOES rank right up there with "well all you did was sleep with him" and "I am not into bonding" All I can say is geez Tess are you that far removed from human emotion?

Just questions that were raised from those scant 30-60 seconds of preview! Any ideas or thoughts from anyone?

While thinking about HoM (don't worry this is not a spoiler) I had the most profound thought...well to me it was profound....
Okay here is my theory as to why Max and Tess will never work out...(from a non dreamer perpsective and going totally upon evidence given in previous eps)

I have always maintained that the podsters are no longer the aliens that they once were whoever they were back on their home planets no longer exists, this is attirbuted to a number of reasons....different environment different socialisations and different DNA...

The Hybrid Chronicles are big step in solving the puzzle as to what the Destiny of Max and the other Podsters are. We have learned that they have not just been clinically engineered but cloned from actual humans this being so then each of them must have inherited from their donors their human past lives, their essence of life, their souls.

In Max in the City when Ava and Liz are talking Ava talks aboput how Zan loved her but it always seemed as if he were waiting for someone of something else...perhaps his human destiny.

So much is being made of them remebering their alien past lives no one has really stopped long enough to realise they have human past lives also.

And as any self repspecting Bram Stoker's Dracula Fan knows true love transcends time, and one day the love of your life will return to you. perhaps Max or his human donor had found the love of his life before they took samples of him for Max...and perhaps Liz is the embodiment of that love returning...and thats what Zan was waiting for.

The Dupes seemed as though they had been aware of their 'alien' Destiny's all along from their hatching and still Zan did not have that 'look into my soul' love for Ava, which for me means something inside of him knew that he was waiting for his human destiny.

Which brings me to my point Max is never going to come to the realization that he loves Tess or remember that he loves her because he is no longer that person he is somebody else.

The Dupes we are told in an indierect way are defective but we are not told how they are defective, perhaps it is that they are less human than the pod squad?.

The fact that Zan did not want to go the summit and what Ava said to Liz for me proves that Zan knew in his heart that their was more to his exixtence than going 'home' and picking up where they left off that in a more real sense earth is their home....

If their people really wanted them unchanged to return back to their planet and rule they wouldn't have gone to all the trouble with the gandarium etc etc they would have just made the pod squad skins with the intent of them going home asap, but they didn't they made them so they could live as humans amoungst humans...nasedo even said himself that all their powers everything they can do is human.

In any case I think that Ava is the key to evrything, and that Max needs to realize that while he preaches to Michael about being afraid to be human he lacks the strength for a full introspection into his human side...

I know this post seems to pick on Max but hey what can I say....feedback on this point of discussion would be oh so great.

I could go on for hours about this.

They are, sadly, deeply disturbing. Be warned....

{~}:}

Sharing In The Groove

Uriah, ITA. I too had that thought that there must be consideration for their human sides. To be honest I think that the podsters are as different from their predecessors as they are the same for the reasons you posted. How do the Antarians expect this plan to work? I think it is kinda coo-coo really. I think Max is a mess right now.

GraceKel very good point. ITA that Liz may be feeling responsible for this as well as blaming FM too. Max has blood on his hand. I am thinking that he tries to heal Alex but it is too late. Max seems really cold in that promo to Liz. He seems to think that the idea of Alex being murdered is absurd. They show a clip from the same scene where Max, Tess, and Is are leaving like they aren't going to listen to Liz anymore. There is also that clip where Max tells Liz that if she leaves their friendhsip is over and Liz shakes her head at him like she doesn't know him anymore.(That is because it is SM :grin It seems to me that Max is distant if not cold to Liz but when he is with Tess he seems emotional and vulnerable.He seems weak and to some degree scared, like he did in Crazy. When Tess came in season 1 Max and Liz were very much together and she couldn't get in but now ....

What is that floating around in the air in the end of the promo? Too early for snow....hmmmmmmmm.
I was bummed that they came right out and said who was dying. So cold! But to be optimistic maybe they come right out and say it because finding out who died is not the most important info we will find in this epi and that is why they are giving it away. yes, maybe?
I agree that Alex being murdered seems strange. I also notice that Alex made reference to his trip to Sweden again. I think that 3 or 4 times now. Has anyone else notice that Sweden is this reference for change with Alex. There is nothing really abnormal about that but you can't leave any stone unturned here. If he was murdered there must be something we have yet to find out.
I am really glad that the journal was brought back. I think that it made it that much more of an emotional episode.

I swear I am going to watch HOM until it doesn't hurt anymore.

uriah—Welcome!

I do not think Liz would assume that Alex was murdered. She would need proof. Blaming Max might be because of Fmax coming back and now Alex is dead. But saying it’s murder would not be viable unless she had proof.

Sunrise – Remember Reggies advice about you mind on spoilers! :eyespin: Don’t do it – if you’ve managed to make it all the way through the break! I’m a bit spoiled, but being away for so long has put me back in the non-spoiled mood! Nothing against the spoiler queens – they are great! BUT spoilers can be confusing and depressing – and often inaccurate! If you made this far spoiler free, stay that way!!

Vampire Yoshi – Welcome - and glad you found the info on the number 5! We have discussed it a lot, and most of us believe Liz is the equivalent to the 5th element!

Qfanny – I really appreciated everything you said in your post!

Alexis – I totally agree about the preview announcing Alex’s death! That was something I was a bit spoiled about, though I wasn’t going to believe it until I saw it! But now … Poor Stargazers!! They get a tease, then BANG – right in the face. Of course, Dreamers have been dealing with that all season, but I think there will be a grand scheme that brings everything to resolution – the clues point that way. But death, well – in the “X-files” tradition, I guess no one is truly ever dead – so I guess there is always hope! (There is that optimism again!)

StarBox – Thanks for the info on the necklace – makes sense to me. Also, in our neighborhood/school district, all the high schoolers take the public bus to school. They are issued bus passes (free?), and it saves a ton of money transportation-wise. I do find the fact she missed the bus funny, maybe TPTB read the Rebel thread and thought this little irony would convey a message to them.

I was the one who asked “why” Tess hasn’t played with Liz’s mind, and speculated that maybe she couldn’t. It will be interesting if this plays out at all! And wouldn’t Tess wonder “Why?” she couldn’t if she can’t??

Oh – and if, at the end of the season Max (not SM) has had sex with Tess and it is not resolved, but hanging out there – I doubt I will be back for Season 3. The Yuck factor will be too much for me to behr! I can only take so much 90210, and it has to be tied into a very compelling storyline, or I’m gone. Like I’ve said – I do have a life – and it takes a lot to get me so obsessed with a show. The Pilot and Season 1 hooked me, and the mythology has kept me hanging in there – plus, I adore the character of Liz (plus a number of the other characters) – but …

Xenutia – I forgot to welcome you - great post!

Aldebaran – I rewatched the preview this morning – and ummm… is all I can say. Liz looks so upset at the beginning, and the way the aliens leave, brushing right past her is disturbing – though notice that Mikey G remains there sitting with Maria! Mikey may be the only cool alien for the next couple of episodes, though I can’t believe that Iz would be interested in getting to the truth about Alex’s death if he truly is dead! Grace Kel – that is a great thought about Liz feeling responsible in some way for changing the future that resulted in Alex’s early death! I hope her investigative skills kick in – maybe that is what the confrontation with Max is all about!

Uriah – Welcome! you will have to read the Intro – you are right on target with many theories we have developed. I think you would enjoy portions of the Intro! We have had long discussions about nurture v. nature, and the fact that they have a human DNA donor (like Grandpa Dupree) that also has an influence over “who” they are today. Plus – there has to be a REASON why Earth and human DNA was chosen – we just don’t know it – yet!

Well – I may see where we are, and start the new thread soon!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!

ITA. And Adam's a total puppy for Liz, and at first she resists but later begins to turn to him as she becomes distressed from the zombie-like collective consciousness-possessed Max. Huh huh huh.

-fallen

Zero

StarBox I don't think Tess knowing Kyle's favourite dish means that she mindraped him. It's fairly obvious that she does a lot of the cooking, not just from ARCC but from DB (I think) when she tells him where the meatloaf is. It's probably something she's made before. And even if it wasn't, Jim would likely know about it and could have told her.

GraceKel Ditto for Sean's conversation with Liz echoing her thoughts to Maria. He knows that she and Max have this connection that neither has let go of; it's actually a natural conclusion to assume that she feels weird about talking to, or being with, a guy who's not Max. When my cousin and his longtime girlfriend broke things off, it was nearly 2 years before he could date someone without feeling somewhat guilty and wondering how she would feel about it.

GraceKel, MissLParker ITA that Liz is going to feel guilty as h*** about Alex's death, knowing that he would have had at least another 2 years of life. I am hoping that she talks to Maria about it, since she can't talk to anyone else yet stomps foot.

MissLParker I haven't seen the promo yet, but you said floating stuff in air? Could it be a dead Skin? The skin flakes floated in the air after CW was killed and in Harvest & WO; could that be it? Did Alex and a Skin maybe kill each other??? That would account for Liz feeling he was murdered. Max I'm not even going to try to explain, he's locked in a corner of his mind while SM's taken over his body ITA that the trip to Sweden seems to be acquiring more significance than just an explanation for his absence from the show. And as for watching HOM enough to have it stop hurting--good luck It's actually easier to watch it in Mythologist mode, pen in hand, searching for clues. It engages your mind and blocks your feelings a little.

I meant to drag this post over when I saw it, but didn't and I can't find it now. Someone who works in film (editing, I think) said that the reason HOM felt kind of rushed, like too much was going on at once, is classic for a set-up episode. Bits and pieces anre started so that they can be followed up on in the next eps. This made a great deal of sense, as HOM is basically the beginning of this last story arc.

Qfanny I hope it thumps eternally--at least for S3!

Meta I PMd you with my email address for the promos. I you for offering to do that; I've been trying to d/l them forever it feels like! Thanks in advance

I Shall Believe
~Tas

I saw that promo. i can't believe it even though i already knew about it

When Max and Liz are in each other's arms on the Vegas dance floor, Liz says "Max...uh, Max..." about to explain the wedding vision to him. If you hit slow track of the VCR, Tess's face slowly comes into view from the right hand side of the screen. She claps her hands and he instantly turns his face from Liz to Maria. I know it seemed as if he turned from her because the song was over, but I always thought it a little odd that they were engrossed in this really deep conversation regarding a "memory" he received WITHOUT Tess being around, and suddenly he's so easily distracted. It makes more sense that Tess did it, turning him back into SM, at least at that crucial moment. Any thoughts? Also, if someone else already pointed this out I'm SO SORRY! -HH