There is never a dull moment on this thread, and we appreciate new episodes to digest! Thank goodness for Heart of Mine, even with it’s inducing scenes, we were provided for lots of stuff to chat about!

Feedback is always welcome! Just PM me. I will continue to let you know when I up-date the Introduction so you can head over there to read the new information when I add some.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Background

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY!

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz's importance to the pod squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember - NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome!

Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection

Consequence of the Connection - the Change?

Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really?

Granolith - How does it fit in?

Destiny - Liz and Max!

Follow Your Heart

Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

Chakras

Einstein's Light Cone

Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV

The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up!

The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things?

The Catalyst - Liz!

Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in?

Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run"

Hero Journey - Liz's Path

Grandma Claudia - the first connection?

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection?

Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars!

Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz?

Skins - What lies below the surface?

Shapeshifters - Are there more than one?

Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation

Mythology!

Dates

Finally - dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research.

In Summary

Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff or THE WB reads this or the Intro), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!"

A couple of general "rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions/preview and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz - says - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!!

Sunrise – Remember Reggies advice about you mind on spoilers! :eyespin: Don’t do it – if you’ve managed to make it all the way through the break! I’m a bit spoiled, but being away for so long has put me back in the non-spoiled mood! Nothing against the spoiler queens – they are great! BUT spoilers can be confusing and depressing – and often inaccurate! If you made this far spoiler free, stay that way!!

Vampire Yoshi – Welcome - and glad you found the info on the number 5! We have discussed it a lot, and most of us believe Liz is the equivalent to the 5th element!

Qfanny – I really appreciated everything you said in your post!

Alexis – I totally agree about the preview announcing Alex’s death! That was something I was a bit spoiled about, though I wasn’t going to believe it until I saw it! But now … Poor Stargazers!! They get a tease, then BANG – right in the face. Of course, Dreamers have been dealing with that all season, but I think there will be a grand scheme that brings everything to resolution – the clues point that way. But death, well – in the “X-files” tradition, I guess no one is truly ever dead – so I guess there is always hope! (There is that optimism again!)

StarBox – Thanks for the info on the necklace – makes sense to me. Also, in our neighborhood/school district, all the high schoolers take the public bus to school. They are issued bus passes (free?), and it saves a ton of money transportation-wise. I do find the fact she missed the bus funny, maybe TPTB read the Rebel thread and thought this little irony would convey a message to them.

I was the one who asked “why” Tess hasn’t played with Liz’s mind, and speculated that maybe she couldn’t. It will be interesting if this plays out at all! And wouldn’t Tess wonder “Why?” she couldn’t if she can’t??

Oh – and if, at the end of the season Max (not SM) has had sex with Tess and it is not resolved, but hanging out there – I doubt I will be back for Season 3. The Yuck factor will be too much for me to behr! I can only take so much 90210, and it has to be tied into a very compelling storyline, or I’m gone. Like I’ve said – I do have a life – and it takes a lot to get me so obsessed with a show. The Pilot and Season 1 hooked me, and the mythology has kept me hanging in there – plus, I adore the character of Liz (plus a number of the other characters) – but …

Xenutia – I forgot to welcome you - great post!

Aldebaran – I rewatched the preview this morning – and ummm… is all I can say. Liz looks so upset at the beginning, and the way the aliens leave, brushing right past her is disturbing – though notice that Mikey G remains there sitting with Maria! Mikey may be the only cool alien for the next couple of episodes, though I can’t believe that Iz would be interested in getting to the truth about Alex’s death if he truly is dead! Grace Kel – that is a great thought about Liz feeling responsible in some way for changing the future that resulted in Alex’s early death! I hope her investigative skills kick in – maybe that is what the confrontation with Max is all about!

Uriah – Welcome! you will have to read the Intro – you are right on target with many theories we have developed. I think you would enjoy portions of the Intro! We have had long discussions about nurture v. nature, and the fact that they have a human DNA donor (like Grandpa Dupree) that also has an influence over “who” they are today. Plus – there has to be a REASON why Earth and human DNA was chosen – we just don’t know it – yet!

Well – I may see where we are, and start the new thread soon!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!

Qfanny: Your letter was amazing!! You are a truly gifted writer. Is there a place you could post it for all to read? It didn't get the exposure it deserved on the WB site!!

MissLParker: I think you're right that the "why" Alex was murdered is more important than the actual event. Wasn't there an interview with either JK or RM where they said one of the group would be killed, and the "whys" and "hows" of it happening would change everything? I think I remember reading that on the WB site. Anyway, one would think the big ratings draw for CYN would be to find out who dies, so blatantly promoting it would indicate that something else is more important, IMO.

Alexis: You are also right that Liz would need proof. Liz is a scientist, so she bases her decisions on facts, she doesn't jump to conclusions. Besides, Liz would never accuse Max or the other podsters of anything, let alone murder, unless she had proof.

Starbox: I'm with you, I think Tess can mindrape as well. Does it seem weird to you that when Sean was talking to Liz some of the things he said sounded like they were coming from Max? Sean says, "Then why do I feel so much when I look at you?" Doesn't that seem like something Max would say? I don't know, maybe Tess is mindwarping Sean to keep Liz away from Max. Or, Sean could be working with Tess if he is indeed Nicko. Sean still seems creepy to me; the way he shows up at just the right moment and the things he says to Liz are a little suspicious.

From the promos, it looks like we are in store for some very difficult times ahead. The one bright spot is that it appears we will have "our" Liz back! She seems to be on a mission, and I am ready to see her back in the spotlight. Hopefully, being on Liz's journey with her will make all the Max and Tess crap more bearable (if that's possible)!

Zero Thanks; I'm glad you liked my poem And now, thank you for starting a new thread!

StarBox I don't think Tess knowing Kyle's favourite dish means that she mindraped him. It's fairly obvious that she does a lot of the cooking, not just from ARCC but from DB (I think) when she tells him where the meatloaf is. It's probably something she's made before. And even if it isn't, Jim would likely know about it and could have told her.

GraceKel Ditto for Sean's conversation with Liz echoing her thoughts to Maria. He knows that she and Max have this connection that neither has let go of; it's actually a natural conclusion to assume that she feels weird about talking to, or being with, a guy who's not Max. When my cousin and his longtime girlfriend broke things off, it was nearly 2 years before he could date someone without feeling somewhat guilty and wondering how his ex would feel about it.

GraceKel, MissLParker ITA that Liz is going to feel guilty as h*** about Alex's death, knowing that he would have had at least another 2 years of life. I am hoping that she talks to Maria about it, since she can't talk to anyone else yet stomps foot.

MissLParker I haven't seen the promo yet, but you said floating stuff in the air? Could it be a dead Skin? The skin flakes floated in the air after CW was killed and in Harvest & WO; could that be it? Did Alex and a Skin maybe kill each other??? That would account for Liz feeling he was murdered. Max I'm not even going to try to explain, he's locked in a corner of his mind while SM's taken over his body ITA that the trip to Sweden seems to be acquiring more significance than just an explanation for his absence from the show. And as for watching HOM enough to have it stop hurting--good luck It's actually easier to watch it in Mythologist mode, pen in hand, searching for clues. It engages your mind and blocks your feelings a little.

I meant to drag this post over when I saw it, but didn't and I can't find it now. Someone who works in film (editing, I think) said that the reason HOM felt kind of rushed, like too much was going on at once, is classic for a set-up episode. Bits and pieces are started so that they can be followed up on in the next eps. This made a great deal of sense, as HOM is basically the beginning of this last story arc.

Qfanny I hope it thumps eternally--at least for S3!

Meta I PMd you with my email address for the promos. I you for offering to do that; I've been trying to d/l them forever it feels like! Thanks in advance

I Shall Believe
~Tas

Perhaps the most compelling visual evidence of Liz mythology is the fact that when Max and Liz come together to embrace - they often form the symbol on the orb (the same one that was "activated" by OR "activated their sexual exploration in Sexual Healing.

Here are some images where you can see the connection -
Liz and Max as twin souls - notice how they come together to form the
"swirl" on the orb activated during Sexual Healing. Also - notice the
"Emergency" sign behind them - when they come to gether it reads "MERGE".
The animation is from the alternate ending to Leaving Normal is currently being moved but will be back up again soon Thanks redhawk
The screencap is of the aired ending of Leaving Normal - here you can see a variation of the orb swirl as well.

Check out this

link. for the full gallery of images - please feel free to copy and post any images to explain theories - the gallery is at your disposal. It is a way to keep key Liz/mythology images in one place - ut it exists for you guys to use as a resource.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

In ARCC it is alluded that this is the first time Tess has cooked (in her conversation about there not being chairs she asks where they eat and Jim replied they usually eat in front of the TV - the implication being that Tess has NOT been cooking and they have not been eating together)
Now - Kyles favorite dish - cooked exactaly the way he likes it. I would assume this is something his mother had cooked for him (surely Jim desnt make elaborate homecooked meals). Since mom has been gone for a LONG time - it is really suspicious that Tess would have any way of finding out what Kyle's favorite dish was - AND - the exact style in which he liked it cooked. UNLESS - she read his mind.
Here is the dialouge from the transcript:
(Tess brings another dish to the table)
KYLE: Is that 3-cheese potato gratin?
TESS: With bacon on the bottom. Your favorite.
(Tess heads back to the kitchen and Kyle stares at her for a moment) ***my note - if you rewatch the interaction here - especially with Kyle's stare - the insinuation is that there is no way Tess could have known***
This episode was written by JK himeslf - and I have always thought this was a very subtle - but very imporatant clue as to what Tess is potentially capable of.
Remember too - her silverhandprint interview about how she is having a hard time knowing when its right and not right to use her powers -and how she has been developing and strengthening her powers........

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I Shall Believe
~Tas

Btw, I could tell from the beginig that the pic of Alex in Sweden was fake, I mean Sweden does NOT look lite that and swedish girls does not look like that...

Well, that was all...

Edited cuz I can't spell...

Edited to say thanks to Zero for the new thread.

You read my mind! Liz must find a clue of somekind. IMO the focus will be on how the event happened.
Fake pictures? Absolutely. The one on the gazette at silverhandprint.com looks very doctered. Look at the lighting on his face and then the light in the backround, VERY different. When I first saw that picture, I realized that there was a definate possibility that he didn't "gripa det dagen". Notice the title of that article is Swede Dreams. It is a play on words (Sweet Dreams). That is something you would say when someone goes to sleep. Sleep can be a metaphor for death. Ok I don't know where I am going with this but I think that it could be a clue.
The "snow" in the air I am guessing could be skin.

You know, while Max and Liz are sitting there basically asking each other to prom, there's all kinds of subtext in that scene.

3) "I know that we're not seeing each other and I accept that, I do, but..." Doth the lady protest too much? Liz all but said, Please ask me I guarantee I'll say yes!

Yeah, when she said "I know we're not seeing each other and I accept that, I do but..." I thought it was an odd thing to say, "accept", and I was thinking, well yeah, since you are the one who walked away from him in Destiny, you are the one who originally wanted a fresh start, you engineered the deception of with Kyle in bed to make Max be more receptive to Tess and you've bared with it's repercussions.

The word "accept", when you are accepting something you are taking it from someone, or someone is giving it to you. I thought it was an odd choice of words because Max hasn't given her anything except a declaration that he's coming for her and what was once his heartfelt devotion and the friendship that remains. And yet Liz is the one that has given Max rejection and heartbreak. It just seemed an odd choice of words because Liz's pain has been very much self inflicted, she's made painful choices and I think they are the right ones mind you, but Max's pain has been a result of Liz's choices of action, walking away in Destiny, the deception in EOTW. These were actions controlled by Liz, so I was wondering what it is she has to accept, other than her own resposibility for the status of her relationship with Max. I was asking the Liz on the TV who are you really trying to convince here? Yourself?

I don't know if any of what I said will make sense to anyone else, but I really had a weird reaction to her use of that word.

somebody (sry.I can't remember who)talk about Nasedo told to podsters they are human.
I think about it and I found something very weird about Tess:
first in WR:
NASEDO: Those are your powers, Michael. Everything you can do is human. You were just programmed to be several thousand years ahead of mankind, that’s all.
and in Destiny :
WOMAN: If you are seeing me now,....but your essence was duplicated, cloned, and mixed with human genetic materials so that you might be recreated into human beings....
and then in AN:
TESS: You don't have to spare my feelings. Nasedo taught me not to get wrapped up in...this. It's not really who I am. I'm not human. Neither are you.

This about old things.
About HOM I must take little bit time to talk about...
-----------------
And how you get this nice signatures in bottom your post? I want too!!!

True, but let's not forget that Colin Hanks has been no longer with us for so long, that Alex's being "no longer with us" was (ahem) in the cards.

OK, I'm accepting (until Monday ) that Tesssss is evil. You've heard me defend her, so you can guess how happy I am...

So what do "we" do about it? By training, and by inclination, I'm an Engineer: I fix things. It's a compulsion; what can I say? Anyway... how do we recover Max, and test Tesssss to figure out what's the deal with her?

Get'em drunk. Tesssss wasn't around for Blind Date; so she may not know that the hybrids are particularly susceptable to intoxication. (Michael was in Balance, too.) Get Max drunk, and he'll spill the beans if he can. Re-balancing him should snap him out of it, whatever "it" is.

More interesting, get Tesssss drunk. See what happens. Re-balancing her should be interesting, too. (Liz has to kiss her? ) If Tesssss was "gotten to" in the end of MitC, it would explain a lot. A minor post-hypnotic suggestion by Nikolas or Lonnie (also a candidate for mental powers, remember!) could have made her more aggressive in pursuing Max, to the point of giving him memories that he "should" have. Remember, we have the "alien rutting season" coming up soon. If Tess can get Max through one of those, it may "take" for life.

Remember:
This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?

The photo of the Northern Lights was an old familiar stock photo. It's been around for years, and is probably the one you'll see if you look up the NL.

IF Alex's trip was manipulated in some way (awww cheeze... I just remembered that they did this on a Star Trek TNG episode - paging Ron Moore!) then this prop may be from the manipulater(s), not the WB Prop Dep't.

Did anyone notice that the twirling at the beginning and ending of HOM is similar to the twirling Liz does at the end of EOTW. Both times Max and Liz are hurt and both times Max is sitting on a bench with Tess and is in shock! Hmmmmm.

When Liz and Max are in each other's arms on the Vegas dance floor, Liz says "Max...uh, Max..." preparing to explain the wedding vision to him. If you play the tape on a slow track, you see that Tess's face slowly appears on the right side of the screen. It's kind of creepy. She claps her hands and Max suddenly turns his head away from Liz. I realize we assume it's because Maria had finished her song, but that doesn't really make sense. I mean, Max and Liz were engrossed in a very deep conversation about a memory he had received without Tess around; I doubt he would be paying that close attention to the music. It looks like Tess's clap breaks his concentration and turns him into SM at that crucial moment. Please try it and tell me if you think I'm crazy. -HH

All the talk of mindwarps, and/or forcing M/T together, M/L apart, plus the references to MITC, has made me come up with another hair-brained . Sorry if someone has said all this before - I'm sure someone has - but I'm new-ish here.

We assume that if mindwarps are happening, they are happening to make Max get with Tess. Be it Tess doing the mind warping, or someone else (for me, the jury's still out on that one). BUT...what if the primary purpose (considering Sean's convenient presence, also) is really to keep Liz away from Max? Maybe it doesn't matter whether he is with Tess or not - what matters is keeping him away from Liz.

MITC is the perfect example of what I'm about to get at. It has not one, but two instances. Watch the scene from MTD where Zan almost fights with Rath, then is pushed under the truck. Zan says to Rath: That's right. I'm the man." Then Lonnie and Rath keep Ava out the way and kill Zan, in a seeming accident.

Now watch the scene in MITC where Liz tries to contact Max and warn him. Unknown to him, Max says the exact same thing to Rath that Zan did : "I'm the man." Then Tess is kept out of the way, while Rath and Lonnie create another fatal 'accident'. It is Liz, and only Liz, that prevented history from repeating itself. As far as we know, this scene may even have played out when the original Zan died, back on Antar, because there was no 'Liz' to save him.

The other thing about MITC was Max's decision to guard the granilith - he made that decision based only on Liz's plea. Again, Liz prevented history from repeating itself. There are loads more examples of Liz stopping the repeat, I could go on all night. The point I think I'm trying to make is that Liz has been put there to stop history from repeating itself and causing disaster. Lots of people could therefore have reason to want her out of the way, and are using this possibly mindwarped M/T situation to ensure Liz is really kept away from Max. You never know: FMax coming back like that might even have been some kind of setup to prevent Liz from being near him, and thus able to influence his life.

That's it. Sorry again if it's old news to you! I just think it's more relevant now than ever before.

I'm here asking you to do your part as an APPLEsaucer. Shiri Appleby is #2 on People's 50 Most Beautiful List right after Bon Jovi. Let's try to make her #1, shall we? Please vote often. If she makes it into the issue, it may bring more publicity to Roswell and the character of Liz!!!
http://people.aol.com/people/spa/50most2001/poll/index.html

The other thing about MITC was Max's decision to guard the granilith - he made that decision based only on Liz's plea. Again, Liz prevented history from repeating itself. There are loads more examples of Liz stopping the repeat, I could go on all night. The point I think I'm trying to make is that Liz has been put there to stop history from repeating itself and causing disaster. Lots of people could therefore have reason to want her out of the way, and are using this possibly mindwarped M/T situation to ensure Liz is really kept away from Max. ...Wow, well thought out and well stated, Xenutia.

Just throwing my two cents in about the promo that I haven't seen:
I'm guessing Alex dies because Max was screwing Tess and they couldn't find him in time to save Alex. ***shapeshifter ducks while fellow Mythers throw rotten orbs***

I wouldn't say I'm a gifted writer. I can't spell.

It fits in with the changed-Tess theory, too. If you think that Tess was compromised while Lonnie & Rath kidnapped her, this would have happened right after Liz saved Max. The Dupes knew that Max had it bad for Liz; perhaps they figured to have Tesssss push her away. That is, the old sementing thing; only in reverse: Max&Tesssss, with Liz leaving.

So just by giving Tess a small post-hypnotic suggestion to give Max the memories of her he "should" have anyway, this whole mess is created. I like it; it passes the Occam's Razor test.

Celtic Princess – some fun information you provide, though it is hard to apply zodiac signs to the aliens since they “picked” their respective birthdays. But it is always fun to speculate, and Aries and Mars have popped up before elsewhere!

c. mccoy – I agree – for Liz to make such a challenging accusation in Max’s face, she has to has some significant foundation! I can hardly wait – bumpy ride ahead, but oh it looks fun! Strong Liz always makes me happy! I agree with Miss L Parker that how and why the accident – looks like a car accient – happened will be the focus of the investigation – but there may be more to it, too!

mashinka – Welcome! The whole Sweden trip has been so well published that with Alex’s death I think there will be something up with it. Maybe he had an encounter with the Northern Lights!? Miss L Parker – great catch on the Swede Dreams = Sweet Dreams = Sleep = Death! Also = Hypnosis/Trance. Either they are very clever, or we all are! I too thought of Skin – as in when CW exploded in Surprise. ??

Miss L Parker – it is an interesting use of word – “accept” – I take it as her way of saying she has HAD to make these painful choices for the greater good, and she accepts this though it has hurt the one she loves with all her heart and soul and torn her to pieces emotionally, but that she still wants to have one night – the prom – to pretend it all isn’t so! Does that make sense? Though she made the choice to take the actions she did, I don’t feel like she felt had a choice really given the ultimate consequences. I’m not up to giving an example, but I hope you understand what I’m trying to say.

But I did think the whole interaction was awkward. I personally did not go to my Prom – though it was a big deal – and chose to go to my first frat party at the college I was planning to go to- which involved a weekend out-of-town trip. My reasoning was that the guy I liked went to another school, was seeing someone else, and though I had a lot of male friends, going to the prom with a “friend” was dreadful to me. My best friend did go with a male friend and said it was awful for a variety of reasons. So for me – I felt I made the right choice (we did not have a Junior Prom, only a Senior one). I can’t imagine being in Liz’s situation and “asking” Max to ask me – so awkward! It would have been less awkward if she had come out and asked him directly, instead of beating around the bush like she did. ???

Vihmakass – great catch about the dialog re: being human. It has always bugged me how she so quickly discounts her humanity? Ummm……

Reggie – I feel you pain (a little) since I was actually enjoying Tess with Kyle – they were cute together, but I must admit, I have never trusted her (though I was weakening recently like in ARCC) – But … I think you will be doing a lot of ing if the current story arch plays out the way I think it is going to??? That post-hypnotic suggestion idea makes a lot of sense to me – it would explain why the Tess we were beginning to trust (a bit) and like (a bit) would all of a sudden become evil – or at least the scum of the Earth in my book! I have often wondered if the planet alignment in April from last year may be what is triggering all this crazy behavior this year??? Also, in the day of computer generated images, photos are so easy (as we have seen firsthand on this site) to doctor! If the photos are false, Liz will figure it out – I’m confident in her abilities!

Alexis – Great catch about the Twirling!

Haniczka – Welcome! Please don’t be scared of posting, we really are a friendly – though observant – group! I don’t think you are crazy – plus, you made me think of something. What if Liz is capable of mindwarping, but doesn’t know it. Maybe it wasn’t a tear in the fabric of time – or whatever the official explanation of the wedding vision was. Maybe Liz subconsciously sent the vision to him without knowing it? Ummm…..,

Xenutia – that is a good point, and would take the heat of Tess – though I still think Tess is involved in the creation of Stepford Max! I do believe Liz is essential to the prevention of history repeating itself – there is a lot about this in the Intro. Look for the Run, Lola, Run discussion.
Corner – Welcome! I did my part and voted!

Shapeshifter – I would NEVER throw anything at you!

Chat with you all again soon!
Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!

If we're going to bring mindwarps into the equation, be them from Tess or an outside source, then what's to say, in that future timeline, that FMax and FLiz had not been mindwarped into that plan in the first place? Into thinking that was the reason and going back to change it? Whoever is originating the proposed mindwarps may have been hoping to create a timeline which was more favourable to themselves. This would be more likely if it were Tess doing the mindwarping.

Anyway, I'm not saying it's right...just that I've thought about it in thinking out my hair-brained little schemes. That's only one idea, maybe I can come up with a more convincing one when I've thought about it a bit more.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I thought that the point of FM going back wasn't to break up M and L, but rather to keep T from leaving town. They really only needed to have M pay a little more attention to T (not necessarily romantic attention) and to make her feel part of the group. It was only later in the eppy that FM says he has to fall out of love with L. At least that was what I got from the show.

Something was definitely up in that scene. MITC was one of my favorite eppys this year because it was chock full of good scifi. I don't believe there was a single thing in that episode that wasn't supposed to mean something. When I first saw that last scene, I immediately thought that something strange was going on with Tess, as I am sure many of you did as well. We can't all be wrong, can we ?

I was wondering if anyone noticed that Alex was dressed in a Priest Like alfit during Prom? I know that his now going to leave us... but maybe it could be telling us something else

justsmile

it's not about the romantic idea of L&M but the vital importance of it and that's why I shall be hanging around. I am about two weeks behind in the eps having just seen how the other half lives so my posts will be a bit archaic by the time you guys read them but the academic in me is sooo telling me I need to do some more research before posting again and reading over the previous threads is a start....

One issue I would like to query is that perhaps there was no crash at all, meaning there was a physical crash but perhaps Roswell was their Destination to begin with...I am going now to formulate an opinion and I shall be back....

justsmile

Maybe Im blind but in HOM Liz flowers are white!
I thought Liz have some cognition about something bad is going on when they dansing in prom.She don't trust Tess and she saw Max and Tess in Max room together.
In MttM was one moment when Liz is with Maxedo in the car:
LIZ: Did Tess do something to you?
And Im very confident Tess can't mindwrape if person is pay attention what she doing and know for what she is able.
In B&S CW suspect something and she was near to discower what (in one second she saw green light).Same thing with Nicolas - he felt someting.
--------------
sry.gram.
-------------
And I found one interesting sentence from Nasedo:
NASEDO: You're the boss. I would just be careful not to confuse what you want to be true with what really is true.
Hmmmmmmm

aldebaran and GraceKel I posted something about Liz's outburst at the dreamer thread earlier. It's gotta be very stressful for her and she's probably starting to have a meltdown, she's probably blaming FM more than PM (or SM ), but also herself. Her actions in EOTW at least KEPT Alex from living at least 2 more years As far as her judgement on the murder theory, well that's been mentioned but ITA that our scientist Liz doesn't jump to conclusions easily. Let's remember that in the pilot she theorized Max being different, got the proof in the mouth cells and then confronted Max about it.

You guys think some of you were shocked at the promo? Imagine what my friend reacted like, she knew squat cuz she's not obsessed as we are yet She doesn't hang online so she didn't ahve any reference point at all, but she insisted I tell her cuz she missed the promo. And I think she's still in denial I found it funny. But she made a comment that I find interesting in light of what some of you are saying about the episode not being about who, but the why and how. She asked if I thought they would kill him early on or at the end or whatever. Thinking about it, it would seem that it would happen very early on so the asking questions and answering them take most of the time.

Roxy

I missed the beginning of Maria's intro in this ep. Can anyone tell me what she said before she wrote "Prom" on the board?

Re the Promo (don't read if you haven't seen it):

I read on the Roswell 2 board that Colin Hanks mom has serious cancer, and that might be why he wanted out of the contract. Then someone else pointed out that they could still bring him back like they did dead Mulder on X-files. If so, this would be similar to the books when Alex came back from Antar.

I am going to throw one out there for you, I know its probably reaching but LIZ says\
I learned something really important from the LEAST DEEP guy.........."
What does LEAST DEEP mean? SHALLOW--Max called him Mr Shallow---Doug Shellow???? reverse it to Sean Deluca??? LOL!!!

NASEDO: Where’s the pea?
Pick one. Pick one.
Don’t believe everything you see.

Why he tell that to Liz? What he tried to say and why? Hmmmmmmmmmmm
----------------
sry.gram.

I don't know if this has ever been addressed before, but I was pondering on why Liz never received a "flash" when Rath had kissed her.

Throughout HOM, Liz had admitted that she has been suffocating for the past year. Her last entry in the journal said she was "breathing again"!! Could this be the explaination as to why she never had a flash?? If she were to kiss him now . . . would she be "open" to get one??

Speculating on Sean/stalker boy for a moment: IMHO, something is not quite right with him. He knows tooo much!! His speeches allways "nailed" Liz's emotions to a tee. Check out the scene after her speech "my life is falling apart". His comment about how everyone is looking at him, watching his every move is very reminiscent to her spiel to Max in TMA from S1. He even commented on that she feels she can't talk to him without wondering what Max would think about it. Liz told that to Maria in the girls' washroom the morning after the famous Sean kiss. How does he know so much??? His speech is luring Liz into liking him . . . trusting him for support!!

If my suspicisions are correct, will it be possible that she'll get a flash when she kisses him (the one from the promo), being that she is "breathing again"??

One last thing: when Liz and Maria were spying on Juanita and Michael, Liz made the comment that she feels herself and Max are "going in two different directions". Not only is Max being mindwarped by Tess, but she is as well. Could it be Sean who is doing this??

I just had a thought: maybe Tess is helping Sean get to Liz. He could simply be a human getting information that Tess is getting from Liz's subconscious. Tess is trying to hook up S/L in order for the voodoo she is planning on Max to go without any hitches. Get Liz out of the picture!!

That is it!! I'll go back to lurking mode again!!

This whole idea started partly because of a post regarding Max saying "you saw me and Tess what?" during the dance scene and also because I seem to remember something from the books where Max is taken over by the collective consciousness.

If I remember correctly, in the books, when Max is taken over by the collective consciousness, he still has a few moments where he's still him. And they're all when Liz is around. When Max asks Liz what she saw Tess and he doing, I got the strangest feeling. It's almost as though Max knows he's being MW/MR'd but, just like in the books, he's become too weak to fight it off. He has certain moments of clarity, with Liz, but he's not really sure what's going on. That question he asked Liz seems like it might have been "what else has she done to me?"

As I said, this is probably a shot in the dark, but I just couldn't let this one go.

I was thinking the necklace Liz was waring could be considered an amulet.
amulet- an ornament worn as a charm against evil.

Here is some info on the stones. I think the green ones are Turquoise and the white one is a Moonstone, also known as albite.

Turquoise- Believed to confer foresight and protect the wearer from danger. In many cultures, the stone was believed to bring good fortune, success and health. Turquoise is also a master healer, emanating a purifying energy which tends to dissipate negativity; it is an excellent anti-negativity stone [where the negativity is not within the self]. It can be used for emotional, mental and physical problems.

Moonstone- This stone helps one to receive the energies they "need" but not necessarily what they ask for from the universe. It strengthens the natural intuitive power that we all possess and also helps us to understand why situations manifest in our lives. It helps us to understand our place in the fabric of life and spiritual existence - why things are the way they are. Because of this quality it helps to calm those who are experiencing tragedy or are living in a way that doesn't please them.

So what do you think? It looks like Liz is covering all of her bases by waring the necklace. But the question is, who is the team she is playing against? I really think that Tess is one of the star players. Can you tell I've been watching Baseball.

Evid

I've rewatched bits and pieces of the episode and there are just a couple things that keeps grabbing me...

The conversation that Tess has with Max in the mindwarping scene, she tells Max that he's not concentrating, he says he is and she asks what is going on and he tells Tess that he wanted to tell her that he was going to the Prom with Liz. It seems as if she can't get into his head if he has thoughts of or in sync with Liz. Maybe I'm reading too much into the "you're not concentrating" and I'm interpreting it as "I can't get into your head."

The other was the use of the word ephemeral and ubiquitous. It's not that I don't think our Roswellians can't use scrabble winning words, but did those two words stand out to anyone else? So, wanting to double check the definitions, (I'm studying for GRE) another definition for ephemeral is "Lasting or living a short time; a markedly short-lived thing." Meaning, well, I don't know what, his memories that he have are indeed fleeting. It has been said that memories of past-lives are not so short-lived and that is what distinguishes dreams from past-lives memories as dreams are short-lived and fleeting.

Another word associated with ubiquious is omnipresent or universal. "Being everywhere at the same time." I don't know how many different ways everyone on the thread have said how Sean seems to be just where Liz is all of the time, without saying "ubiquitous." So why did Liz pick this particular word? Why not just say "What? Are you following me around, stalking me?" Liz used that word to describe Sean...maybe this supports the guardian theory. Or conversely, supports his out-of-this-world existence.

Maybe I'm just tired...

have a good one!
mako

The conversation that Tess has with Max in the mindwarping scene, she tells Max that he's not concentrating, he says he is and she asks what is going on and he tells Tess that he wanted to tell her that he was going to the Prom with Liz. It seems as if she can't get into his head if he has thoughts of or in sync with Liz. Maybe I'm reading too much into the "you're not concentrating" and I'm interpreting it as "I can't get into your head."

...the use of the word ephemeral
...another definition for ephemeral is "Lasting or living a short time; a markedly short-lived thing." Meaning, well, I don't know what, his memories that he have are indeed fleeting. It has been said that memories of past-lives are not so short-lived and that is what distinguishes dreams from past-lives memories as dreams are short-lived and fleeting. ...Makato, , good points as usual! And good luck on the GRE! With so many of us seeing the connection between the memory retrieval techniques and the collective consciousness, there is real hope there.

Vihmakass, where did you get the quote on the name "Tess?" Is there an Internet address?

I have to agree! I know there is always that “c” word (*ahem*continuity*ahem*) we’re complaining about, but the “dupes” have to be significant SOMEWHERE (soon).

aldebaran wrote:
quote:GraceKel - I turned my computer off at 9pm last night, but once I saw the promo, I ran to turn it on and post! I just thought it was curious that Liz told Max that he was responsible (for Alex's death). Responsible because he is an alien? Because he caused it? Because he didn't heal Alex? I am also curious because Liz was so insistant that it was murder - not an accident. As much as I normally trust Liz's judgment, it seems an unlikely and unusual conclusion to jump to (unless perhaps she witnessed it). In my mind, a person is murdered for a reason, no matter how crazy, and Roswell doesn't seem to be the town to have random acts of violence. Have we any reason to believe that anyone has a motive to kill him? If it was some sort of "alien encounter", why kill Alex? What connection does he have with the podsters other than a friendly one?

OK, so I suspected it was Alex, but OH – how SAD!! You had to wonder after HOM with Iz and Alez and this emphasis on “this being Iz’s only chance”. I know they masked it as Iz’s last chance, but you just had to wonder. I’m SO curious how they kill Alex off. Could it be murder? Could it be alien related? WHY is Liz so angry at Max?

OK, I NEED to see this promo! Or PromoSSS! Who has them? Someone mentioned they downloaded them from somewhere or something (can you tell it's been a long week at the office? ) Who's got it? Who can get it to me? Anyone anyone...

I was thinking that too, that the conversation here had elements of the one between Max & Liz in the Eraser Room in TMA. There, Liz says it must be "freeing" for Max to not know his history, and that her life is "claustrophobic". In the bowling alley, Sean says that both he & Liz are "suffocating" and then he says that lane-walking is "freeing". It was the word "freeing" that really caught my attention. It could just be b/c JK penned both eps; maybe it's a word that he uses

Qfanny Spelling has nothing to do with being a good writer--that's what editors are for!

shapeshifter LMAO!! I'm certainly not going to throw anything at you

Reggie I don't want Tess to be either, but the mounting evidence sure is pointing that way ITA, get them all drunk and see what shakes loose!

Xenutia Wow, some great thoughts!

haniczka I'll have to go check that out in VLV--good catch

Vihmakass To use a signature line, edit your member preferences (from main topic page)

Does anyone else feel like when all is said and done, The Balance from S1 and MITC from S2 are going to be the most critical eps in terms of information?

I Shall Believe
~Tas

There's something about you, liz.
I've just always thought there was something about you, you know... Something special

Let's think about this for a second. Though I'm not entirely convinced that Sean isn't exactly who he says he is, let's entertain the possiblity that he is Khivar. What if it was true that there was a prophecy back on Antar about a human being important to the king or something to that effect, and is using mindraping ability to get close to her. Has anyone else been getting the impression that Sean is 'leading' Liz to make this revelations about how she is feeling? It's almost like Sean is getting into Liz's head, and putting how she is feeling at that moment into words for her, so that what was confusing for Liz becomes clearer. We talk about post-hypnotic suggestion...I think that Sean is doing some suggesting of his own, and is manipulating Liz's feelings and emotions in an effort to keep her away from Max.

Sean as Khivar would make things interesting because Sean is already 'in' with all of the human players. Khivar in this form would pose the greatest threat to the humans, because they trust him and wouldn't think in a million years he wasn't who he said he was.

This might be the case, or it could simply be that Sean is just a horny teenage guy with good insight into people's emotions and feelings, and is doing what he can to hook up with Liz. That really wouldn't be out of the realm of possiblity either.

Hmmmmm.....

{~}:}

Also, when talking about the second promo--the one for the final 5 eps--no one mentioned that while those flakes are floating in the air, the very last thing Max says is "We can go home." I was completely floored by that!!! I thought that neither JK nor RM wanted to take the show off-planet, but that's not the implication here. Argh! I was going to come yell about that last night but my comp froze so I just gave it up

I Shall Believe
~Tas

The word "accept", when you are accepting something you are taking it from someone, or someone is giving it to you. I thought it was an odd choice of words because Max hasn't given her anything except a declaration that he's coming for her and what was once his heartfelt devotion and the friendship that remains. And yet Liz is the one that has given Max rejection and heartbreak. It just seemed an odd choice of words because Liz's pain has been very much self inflicted, she's made painful choices and I think they are the right ones mind you, but Max's pain has been a result of Liz's choices of action, walking away in Destiny, the deception in EOTW. These were actions controlled by Liz, so I was wondering what it is she has to accept, other than her own resposibility for the status of her relationship with Max. I was asking the Liz on the TV who are you really trying to convince here? Yourself?

I don't know if any of what I said will make sense to anyone else, but I really had a weird reaction to her use of that word.

ITA with you Rebecca! While watching this episode, when Liz said she accepted that, I remember yelling at the TV, well Liz, you're the one who slept with Kyle, (at least as far as Max knows). But I guess she also could of meant that scene in (I think it was)We Are Family, in the eraser room, when Max said she had to grow; and that he couldn't go with her, but he'd be waiting for her.

I haven't been posting lately because it's been too, well, you know...

Aldebaran wrote:

In my mind, a person is murdered for a reason, no matter how crazy, and Roswell doesn't seem to be the town to have random acts of violence. Have we any reason to believe that anyone has a motive to kill him? If it was some sort of "alien encounter", why kill Alex? What connection does he have with the podsters other than a friendly one?

(please forgive the unconventional formatting above...)

I do have a theory on this... Alex's connection with the alien culture (podsters plus all the others in the V and wandering around in disguise on Earth) is that Isabel loved him.

Perhaps the story line has an element of the sins of the fathers being visited upon the next generation. By that I mean that perhaps Vilandra is banished from love in this lifetime because of her misdeeds in the previous life.

It would be mythological for her to be doomed to an eternity of romantic tragedy because of her betrayal via Khivar. Perhaps she's stuck in her own personal torturous purgatory.

After all, Grant died too, and he wasn't much more than a potential suitor.

Poor Alex, anyway. It's very sad. I hope seeing the episode will help us understand a larger piece of the picture.

Zara

I have some thoughts about things, but I've been out of practice on these boards. I need to accumulate my thoughts and come back later...

Xenutia - I think the ideas about Liz preventing bad things from happening all along is very insightful.

And Meta, I'm intruiged by the Sean=Khivar theory! Please elaborate!

I'll be back!

Roswellrox

I Shall Believe
~Tas

TP wrote this:

I just had a thought: maybe Tess is helping Sean get to Liz. He could simply be a human getting information that Tess is getting from Liz's subconscious. Tess is trying to hook up S/L in order for the voodoo she is planning on Max to go without any hitches. Get Liz out of the picture!!

*I like this theory! It seemed to me that Sean had TOO much knowledge. My initial thought was that he and Tess were working together - but that would make Sean evil (and I dont think he is evil) - but it would make sense that Tess could be using him to distract Liz.
Plus - everything he has told Liz (about her being special, etc) that has "spoken to her heart" are things that MAX has heard Liz say (or seen through flashes). So Tess could be pulling from Max's head.

Xen and Reggie - the problem with a MITC altered Tess is that it discounts alot of clues that have been dropped about a duplicitous Tess- everything in season one, the altered pod chamber memories, the leaky pod, the silverhandprint.com interviews, Niko's comment about Max picking the wrong people to trust.
I think Tess is doing just what she set out to do/was engineered to do.
And Reggie - I am really impressed that you are admiting the possibility of evil Tess!

A few things I noticed going over screencaps. When Stepford Max and Tess kiss - there are three balloons behind them - two BLACK and one WHITE. The balloon in the prom are light blue and white. The black and white seems intentional.

Also - when Tess came on the scene I (and lots of other people) questioned her authenticity as a podster because she was so physically different from the others. M/M/I are all about the same height and have a similar "look". Tess was just SO physically different.
In the prom picture - Tess and Liz are next to each other and they are EXACTALY the same height.
Coincidence? Perhaps - but I used to do alot of auditions and I cant tell you how many times I stood up against a measuring line on a wall. Casting directors are VERY aware of things like height, coloring, etc when they cast roles - especially when they add to an existing cast.
Anyway - could mean nothing - but it just struck me as odd - I had never noticed it before. If we go back to the good ole leaky pod, add in a Sheila Hubble, mix it all together with Max's recognition of little Liz..............and now Tess seems to be acting more and more like an imposter.....
Hmmmmmmm- whos the TRUE bride now????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Just dropping in to welcome all the newbies! And say some excellent thoughts! You all never fail to impress me.

I have no time to write now, but will be back later (much)!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!

Perhaps the story line has an element of the sins of the fathers being visited upon the next generation. By that I mean that perhaps Vilandra is banished from love in this lifetime because of her misdeeds in the previous life.

It would be mythological for her to be doomed to an eternity of romantic tragedy because of her betrayal via Khivar. Perhaps she's stuck in her own personal torturous purgatory.

After all, Grant died too, and he wasn't much more than a potential suitor.

Poor Alex, anyway. It's very sad. I hope seeing the episode will help us understand a larger piece of the picture.

OK, you've just made my light go on . What if Alex gets caught in some cross fire between Khivar and Max? Like Khivar comes to Earth to tell Max something and somehow the two of them "get into it" and he zaps Alex by mistake? We know (well, we're made to believe anyway) that Edsedo died because he was killed by a Skin - the death was too "alien" for Max to use his healing powers with. Maybe it's the same thing that happens to Alex!

OK, either he gets caught in a cross-fire OR they select him in particular to get to Iz/Vilandra! One of the two.. gotta be, right?

By the way, anyone find out who has the promo(s)? I REALLY want to see it/them?

I thought that Alex did look like a priest in his tux. Father, celibacy? no clue.

Ok I watched HOM again and it is getting less painful. Thank goodness. I used the closed captioning...love that because you see lines that aren't said. Let's see what I can remember.....

When Maria and Liz go to Michael's apartment there is a can of diamond nuts. I got so excitied thinking of you guys. My brother and his wife were like what are you talking about.

When Kyle is about to ask Tess to the the prom he says I feel I really know you and she gets this really nervous look on her face. I thought it was wierd like she was worried that Kyle really knew her, but then she realized that he was just asking her to prom she seem relieved. Does anyone see that too? I thought it was very Tesspicious! Then again this whole episode was.

Someone earlier mentioned Liz'a comment on how she and Max are going in 2 different directions. Her next line really intrigued me ..."but it is like we're not able to seperate." That struck my curiousity. Any theories there?

When Max says you made me remember, in the captions Tess replies "This is just the beginning". Yeah I'll bet it is.
Then when try again she aks what else do you remember?" He says the moons and she smiles and asks "What else?" Max then gets uncomfortable and says he needs a break. To me it seemed like Tess was testing him at first to see if he was getting her "transmissions" with the jello and the moons. When she felt it was working, she would send him the "first kiss" memory and that is when Max gets up. He seems very uncomfortable and wants to fight it. It isn't until he is totally dejected at the prom that he gives into the memory and k***** T***, but he looks sick after that.

OK the music was so great in HOM. I loved it. There was lots of symbolism too.

When Liz is at the bowling alley with Sean the first time and he gives his theory, camera on Liz, the lyrics in the backround are saying "Last year was the best I ever had....no one knows what the game is like....but I know someone's listening". This was during Sean saying that Liz was suffocating and Liz's reaction. interesting...especially with the theories surrounding Sean.
Alex in his bedroom. Come on we all knew it was Iz at his window, so what is with the so called suspense? At first I tossed it away, but then I thought maybe we are supposed to get the impression that Alex is on edge about something.

The scene with Max and Liz during the slow song becomes more and more inciteful. First the song lyrics start with "Bye bye baby, don't long, I worry about you, when you're gone" Is it because Max is going to venture in this new (hopefully brief) chapter with Tess, or is it more specific that Max is not really there.. not himself (SM)? Liz later says that they need to stop pretending. Max: What do you mean? Liz then regurgitates Sean's speech and seems almost guilty that those aren't her own words. Then there is a pause in the dialogue and the lyrics are (while Liz looks at Max) "I think of you night and day"(she cries) (camera now on Max) "I even know just was you meant to say". That line struck me because even though Liz is saying they should let go, she says a heartfelt Max and her eyes continue to be beg him not to let her go. I thought this was an interesting corallation with the lyrics.
What I don't understand is why didn't Max bring up the Kyle thing? I mean talk about infliction of pain. Is there a reason why he would not re-hash that? I would have.

Ok and lastly (I hope) are the lyric to the last song that starts with the k*** and plays in the alley and finally the journal entry. The lyrics are "You can't fight the undertow, not when you're all alone....you can't fight the undertow,how long til you let go?
definition
undertow: an underlying current, force, or tendency that is in opposition to what is apparent.

They show a star balloon and then Alex and Iz kissing. Aww Stargazers. Thank heavens for the candy moments. The journal monologue in the end is really great.

Please accept my apologies for the length of this but there really is a lot on the epi. Please feel free to pick apart my observations.
this thread you guys.

That could very well be. I thought it meant Antar b/c of the earlier bit, where they're in the observatory and Tess says, "I always thought the ultimate plan was to go home." The implication is that she means Antar, not Roswell. But that could be a deliberate effort on the part of the WB to throw us off, too

As for the observatory, I'm wondering why they're doing that now. And what it is that they're really looking at. We've discussed some about how this season's eps are parallel to last season's. Well, the constellations were aligning and awakening their biological drives about this time last year; I'm guessing that's why Tess made her move now? Maybe the aliens have a rutting season, where they're only fertile during that time period, like animals in heat. If Reggie (I think ) is right, and she has only one chance to conceive, that would make sense to ambush Max not only when he's emotionally vulnerable b/c of what's happening with Liz, and then of course Alex's death, but his body is also demanding the contact. Basically, she's attacking in his absolute weakest moment. Add in the Stepford control, and poor Max is toast.

You know, my biggest problem with the "Tess turns out to be evil" is that it, too, seemingly negates the EOTW storyline (I'm leaving out the possibility of future mindwarping here--just too complicated! ). Even if FMax & FLiz thought that by binding Tess to PMax she wouldn't leave the group, would that matter if she was already evil? I mean, wouldn't she still be evil regardless of whether she was with Max or not? Am I making any sense here?

Zara Good idea about Alex's death being payback for Vilandra. I've been thinking about what people have said about his slides maybe being doctored, though. Max says in the CYN promo, "Who could possibly want to murder Alex?" Well, what if Alex made an enemy on his trip? Maybe he didn't really go to Sweden. Maybe he went somewhere else to do whatever, and the Skins found him out. I'm totally grasping at straws here; fortunately it's only 3 more days till we find out about Alex's death, at least

Slightly OT: in light of the circumstances, does anyone else wish that Alex and Isabel did the stereotypical post-prom deed? At least they would have had that much before he's gone

I Shall Believe
~Tas

I Shall Believe
~Tas

I don't think they are taking it off planet. On the Crashdown News section are episode descriptions, very spoilerish, but the wording indicates "what they believe to be their last night on Earth." Almost sounds like they don't end up going.

Re: The discussion of Sean. I know this is the mythers board and seldom post b/c sometimes I feel that my observances are too simple minded and not sci-fi enough , but this time I just had to give in. In my philosophy class we learned of Occam's Razor- the simplist answer tends to be the true one.
So my take on Sean isn't that he is a mindwarped person, just a teenage boy who can be charming and knows what to say to a girl to make her feel special and to try to pull her thoughts away from Max. His lines may have been just that, lines. They sounded pretty close to things I've even heard before. Just b/c M/L said them for real doesn't mean he isn't just using them. I'm not meaning to sound too negative here, but people on their own can be just as desceptive as if they DID have mindwarping abilities.

shanna

You know, my biggest problem with the "Tess turns out to be evil" is that it, too, seemingly negates the EOTW storyline (I'm leaving out the possibility of future mindwarping here--just too complicated! ). Even if FMax & FLiz thought that by binding Tess to PMax she wouldn't leave the group, would that matter if she was already evil? I mean, wouldn't she still be evil regardless of whether she was with Max or not? Am I making any sense here?

Slightly OT: in light of the circumstances, does anyone else wish that Alex and Isabel did the stereotypical post-prom deed? At least they would have had that much before he's gone. [/B]

Yes, that was me. But I don't think that it's a question of conception; I doubt that The Plan involves sending an army of infants against Kivar. I think Tesssss just wants to cement Max to her.

The trouble is, if she does that, then it pushes Liz away. FMax & FLiz succeded, to some extent, because they were together. As I see it, all five are needed. At least. So putting Liz out in the cold weakens them. That's why <insert villan's name here> is using Tess to force her out. He need not know about TEOTW; it's enough to know that Liz gives Max strength somehow.

If Tess were gone, she wouldn't have gone to the Summit, and <?> would not have had the opportunity to adjust her. Tess isn't "turning out to be evil", in my theory; she was manipulated, ever so slightly, at the end of MitC. If she weren't changed, I think her interest in Kyle would still be increasing. Instead, she's still going after Max. (Remember, she said earlier that she "could" make him love her; it just wouldn't last. Maybe if she times it right, with the rutting season, it'll have a better chance?)

OT: <sigh> Well, better Alex than Grant, or some stranger she's just met. I suppose. The prom with Alex was supposed to be a one-shot thing, though. I'd rather she keep it until she meets a guy she can stay with.

QUOTE]

I agree Tas, I don't like the idea of Evil Tess becuase it totally cheapens and ruins EOTW (IMO one of the best episodes yet)Thats why I prefer the theory that Tess (maybe Sean also) is being controlled by someone else. Like somebody (sorry I forgot who)mentioned previously on a different thread, Lonnie (she has some form of mental powers like Isabel, but we don't know how powerful she is) could have placed a subliminal message in Tess during the end of MITC. We still don't know what happened to Tess in between Lonnie trying to kill Max and Max finding Tess all zoned out. Since then, we haven't seen or heard anything about Lonnie and Rath, and Ava. The same for Nicholas- who also has strong mental powers- and is it just me or does anyone else find Sean just a little bit suspicious???

anyway, about the new promo-the Crossroads one, torwards the end, theree's a scene with Liz yelling at Max that he's responsible, after that it shows Max, Isabel and Tess leaving, however, I think Michael stays behind with Maria, which I found a little surprising, (and interesting that this arguement isn't just all the aliens on one side and humans on the other) and is that Kyle standing there with Liz, Maria and Michael?

Echoing what others have said, I keep thinking about how we haven't heard from Nicholas or the Dupes or Skins since they left Tess in the sewers of MITC. I do not believe Tess destroyed them, so I'm compelled to think they're all waiting for something.

Could they be waiting for her to claim she's pregnant? For a woman to tell her man she's pregnant as a means of manipulating him to do what she wants, well, that's the oldest trick in the book. What if it's all planned? What if Tess(ss) is merely trying to get Max to lead her to the Granilith, ("I want to go home with my baby...") and then they'll be ambushed?

I also have a nagging concern, and I'll be very glad to have this one proved wrong, that Sean is Zan. I think someone else raised that question a long time ago, or else I'm losing my mind. Sorry. What if as Zan lay dying, Sean was also dying somewhere, and after his soul vacated the body, Zan was able to heal and inhabit it? As you've all said, he always knows just where to be, just what to say, he's a rebel and he's protective of Liz. If Zan is Sean, then why didn't Liz have a vision when she kissed him?" As Xenubia(?) pointed out, for whatever reason, she didn't get a vision when Rath kissed her either.

I'd be relieved to hear you think this is too far out there. When Sean was telling Liz she made Roswell feel like home, I got creepy goosebumps. (Though, if push comes to shove, I guess I'd prefer Zan over Khivar!) And I do agree with tb that a normal perceptive (horny) teenage boy is capable of saying just the right things, yet Sean's untimely arrival is suspicious to me. -HH

Remember, Liz is not an

As for Tess being evil, I'm sorry, but I hope she is. The only way I can accept the storyline of Max getting her pregnant is if it's all a MW/MR or if Max is in SM mode. Because if Max turns out to be fully aware of what he's doing, I can't see myself sticking around for Season 3. Plus, there are other little things, some from last season, some from this season, that really make me wary of her.

Re: the promo and "going home". I only saw that particular shot, where Max says to Isabel "now we can go home". It's in the WB promo for all their shows for May sweeps.

Not that this could be of significance, but sometimes I get a little carried away with clues. The prom theme was 2001: A Space Odyssey. Now, that movie put me to sleep but I do seem to remember something about a computer getting a mind of its own, and killing people. Does this mean anything? I don't know, but maybe someone who stayed awake for the entire movie might know.

And the OT: Even though I'm a Cliffie, I still hope Alex and Isabel went off together, and had a night to remember, in any sense of the word.

If what's been happening with Max and T*** turns out to be a mindwarp, the only good thing I can see is that the possibility of Max having s** with her it would indicate it was SM doing it. It's the only was I'd forgive him. But my biggest problem with this theory would be that it would mean that the destiny issue has not been properly dealt with. I really want it to be explored and buried in the end. That can't really happen if Max isn't coherent. The REAL Max needs to realize that with or without destiny he still only wants Liz.

Another thing, I think that T*** expects Max to remember the love he once (supposedly?) had for her to come back and be the same way. That's too much to ask IMO, cuz it hasn't occured to her (or she's ignoring it) that too many factors have come in to make things be what they once were. For example, I'm comparing this to when someone has amnesia. I've never had it and I don't know anyone who has, but I know that the memories are rarely recovered and in the slight chance that it does the life of the person is never the same. Too many things have changed, the person becomes someone new, to a certain extent it's like a new life begins. This doesn't have much to do with Liz, but it's just my way of reassuring myself that among other things, Max and T*** can never be.

comments?

Roxy

I was thinking that right about now would be a good time for Ava to show up, Why?
First off, Remember on 4sq Iz said that Tess made her have "that Dream." On Destiny Tess was very surprised that Iz had the "mental power" to dream walk, she looked like she was about to say, oh sh**. At the beginning of M2M Iz ran out of the pod chamber, upset about the pods, she said something like,
"No, No I don't believe it."
So maybe Tess can't mindwarp anyone with metal powers or use them around that person with out arousing suspicion. Why do you think Iz hasn't been invited to the memory retrieval sessions? Iz would read Tess like a book.
Now what would be an excellent way to distract not only Iz but also Liz?
Kill off the boyfriend and the bestfriend, Alex. Both women will be in such mental conflict with grief that Tess won't have any interference. This might not be the only reason to kill off Alex, I have a feeling he was up to something.
Anyway, back to the subject at hand.
So in comes Ava who has all the mental powers that Tess has, I don't think Tess knows how close Liz and Ava became so she won't worrie about her. Ava will figure out what Tess is up to and tell Liz. Liz will come up with a plan and get the gang together to save Max. Ava will then pretend to be Tess and find out who she is working with, maybe even find out that Tess is only faking the pregnancy.
As for keeping the Royal Four plus Liz together. I still think it's Maria who will fill in that spot, it's just a gut feeling I have. Not as Max's bride of course, but as Michael's balence. Kyle and Ava will join forces with them to bring back Alex for next season. Oh come on Alex can't die, this is Roswell you know.
See how easy that could be TPTB.

Evid

huggybehr, your usual concise, clear thinking/writing has rescued our Liz's reputation!

MissLParker, Thank you sooo much for posting that stuff. Did you get Sean's lines in the opening scene? I couldn't hear them. And I missed Maria's opening comments. Maybe you could PM them to me? puhlease?

Audrey11, I like your idea that home is Roswell. It was for Tess in MITC. Maybe "Departure" in the finale refers to college?

Tasyfa, I agree that the writers have boxed us in to a non-evil Tess scenario. I think our only hope is that both she and Max are now sucked into a collective consciousness-style of recovered memories, and that when they both snap out of it Max will only have eyes for Liz, and Tess will want to stop mind warping Kyle into thinking of her as a sister.

HH Wow--Sean as Zan. Very interesting. And no flashes because he's Dupe? That would explain that reaction Liz had to him at first sight. I had thought it went back to a childhood crush, but we have no evidence of that.

Reg, FMan et al, about TEOTW and Tess's importance: What if Tess was going to be evil if she stayed anyway? Thinking of Surprise, what if Tess was Vilondra after all? And Nicko's comment in WO too about Max trusting the wrong one? And in TEOTW, FM told Liz he didn't go to Tess because it was Liz he trusted. I assumed that was because Tess was already alienated (pun intended), but maybe she's never going to be trustworthy.

Evid, I hope you're right!

Re: The discussion of Sean. I know this is the mythers board and seldom post b/c sometimes I feel that my observances are too simple minded and not sci-fi enough , but this time I just had to give in. In my philosophy class we learned of Occam's Razor- the simplist answer tends to be the true one.

shanna

Welcome Shanna (and to all the other newbies and regulars)

Occams Razor...wasn't that mentioned in the movie Contact with Jodi Foster? For some reason I am remembering that.

In any case, I've been thinking about the different characters and relationships and thought I would share my thoughts with you all. Aren't you the lucky ones?

Kyle I think it's been kind of glossed over that kyle was reading a book called Buddha's guide to relationships...and that he wasn't just starting to read it..he was already somewhere in the middle of the book when Malamud comes up to him. To me, this spoke LOUDLY AND CLEARLY that Kyle has obviously been struggling with his conflicting feelings about Tess for awhile now. On one hand, Kyle thinks she's 'hot' so he should be trying to hook up with her...he should just go for it, right? However, he feels 'resistant' to her...which, by the way, is a very strange word to use when describing hesitance about getting involved in a relationship with someone. Confused, conflicted, unsure...these are all words that would speak specifically to the dilemma Kyle seems to be having. Resistant is quite another story. However, I just wanted to point out that if Tess is 'midwarping' Kyle into not being interested in her, this didn't just start evidenced by Kyle's reading material and the fact that he was already well into the book when this episode began.

Liz Now my take on the whole Liz thing is that ever since Tess came to town there has been a part of her that has been waiting for that other shoe to drop - there has been a part of her that has been waiting for Max to tell Liz that he remembers Tess and he loves her (Liz says as much to Max in this episode). I personally don't think that Sean is the catalyst that got Liz 'feeling' again or writing in her journal again -- I think it was the fact that the shoe finally dropped...her worst fears were confirmed. She is no longer feeling suffocated waiting for this to happen, it did. Sometimes when you are so fearful of something -- when you are waiting for something to happen, that no matter how horrible that thing is, when it finally happens it's a relief. There's no more waiting and wondering. It happened and now you have to deal with it. This is the very thing that I think got Liz feeing again. Waiting for the other shoe to drop is equivelant to not being in control. Now that it's happened, Liz can get some control back over her emotions and deal with reality. Hence -- she's feeling again and writing in her journal again. And the comment about her and Max going in two separate directions but not being able to separate really is a very accurate description of what is going on with them. They ARE going in two different directions, yet there is a part of them that is still so attached to the other. I think what TPTB were trying to get across to the audience during HOM was the apparent final acceptance on both these character's parts to break that attachment. For each of them to finally admit to THEMSELVES that it's really over. While they had been wedged apart before, I don't think their attachment to each other had ever been in question. Now, we're supposed to question it. (Of course it's still there, but they want us to start doubting them).

Max The poor shlub. That's really all I can say about that. Big hugs to Max. It's gonna get much worse before it gets better.

Tess Now I'm even more confused about this character than I ever was before. I have no idea what to make of her. However, I will say that if they decide to make her evil and use the 'mindwarping' plotline to explain it all away, I will be really PISSED. If they do make Tess evil, they better have a GREAT storyline in place to back it up, because I was really beginning to like her -- especially with Kyle. I personally feel that TPTB were conflicted about what do with this character from the get-go, and they didn't actually intend to make her evil, but rather wrote themselves into a corner with 'Destiny' and are finally using this as a way to get out of it. It sucks, IMHO and if they are going to go with this, they better have something much better than 'mind warping' as a way to explain it. I wanted something steeped in mythology and something so crazy that noone would have expected it. IS ANYONE LISTNENING OUT THERE? Sorry, but the whole 'mindwarp - mindrape' storylines seem like such an easy out...and I hope TPTB don't use it as a crutch to back themselves out of certain corners they wrote themselves into.

Sean I'm still unsure about this character as well, but I actually wouldn't mind it if Sean turned out to be the other Shapeshifter..the other protector, who I personally think if they ever reveal it to us is going to be Serena. Sean/Serena...close enough. Now THAT would be an interesting plot twist. Since Serena is going to be a friend of Liz's one day. Maybe Sean is sticking to Liz like glue and being ubiquitous because it's his job to 'Protect' her because of her IMPORTANCE TO THE ALIENS. Also, maybe it's important for Liz to break that attachment to Max so that she has the strength and focus to do what needs to be done in the upcoming episodes in order to save the podsters once again. Maybe Sean/Serena realizes this so he is gently helping her get there by helping her identify her feelings through suggestion. Yes??? Hey, now that's a theory I can hang with and don't think I've heard before. Yes, it all makes so much sense now.

Anyhow, as you all know I could go on forever, but I'll stop here....

{~}:}

I see Roswell like this. The first season introduced us to everyone and established their relationship and who they are (The Beginning.) Season two is the story of those relationships and the outcomes as terrible things happen to them. Will season three be the redemption? That remains to be seen.

It is for this reason that when I review season two, I will subtitle it "The Dark Times." Maybe if I am lucky, it will catch on and become popular. In any event, that's what I will call season two.

For you Liz fans, I'd appreciate it if you would check out my thread and let me know what you think about my observations of Liz. It all helps.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira."

I'm sorry, but what do you mean the Colin Hanks hasn't been with us for so long? Maybe I'm out of the loop but I was hoping someone could explain...

~Katie

FIRST - I want to encourage all the Mythologist out there to go the tha LA August 18 gathering! I just registered, and I think it would be totally cool to meet a lot of you. I've just spent all my "computer" time over there at the Party site, so I don't have much to add here, but Meta - once again, you've done an excellent job! I rewatched with my CC on - never done that before (I used to have a roommate that did that for a living) - and it is interesting where some of the dialog is different or dropped. Plus, they type in the lyrics to the songs sometimes when there is no dialog! Okay - got to go, but let me know if you register for the party, because maybe we can have a Mythologists (including lurkers) sub-gathering!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!

quote:Originally posted by Evid:
Hi RBI's,
Now what would be an excellent way to distract not only Iz but also Liz?
Kill off the boyfriend and the bestfriend, Alex. Both women will be in such mental conflict with grief that Tess won't have any interference.

WOW. Oh!!!! You gave me an idea. The two closest women in Max's life are Liz and Isabel. It seems very strange that Max doesn't seem to even want to listen to Liz in the promo (when they brush past her in what looks like after the funeral??) Alex was his friend too...his blood brother . If Alex was murdered then they all might be in danger too. I think the real Max would care about this. So if he is SM, why would Tess want Max to get Liz to give up the "crazy idea" that Alex was murdered?
Yes she wants Max and Liz apart but your comment made me think, how low would she actually go to be with Max?

Roxy

[b]Liz Now my take on the whole Liz thing is that ever since Tess came to town there has been a part of her that has been waiting for that other shoe to drop - there has been a part of her that has been waiting for Max to tell Liz that he remembers Tess and he loves her (Liz says as much to Max in this episode). I personally don't think that Sean is the catalyst that got Liz 'feeling' again or writing in her journal again -- I think it was the fact that the shoe finally dropped...her worst fears were confirmed. She is no longer feeling suffocated waiting for this to happen, it did. Sometimes when you are so fearful of something -- when you are waiting for something to happen, that no matter how horrible that thing is, when it finally happens it's a relief. There's no more waiting and wondering. It happened and now you have to deal with it. This is the very thing that I think got Liz feeing again. Waiting for the other shoe to drop is equivelant to not being in control. Now that it's happened, Liz can get some control back over her emotions and deal with reality. Hence -- she's feeling again and writing in her journal again. And the comment about her and Max going in two separate directions but not being able to separate really is a very accurate description of what is going on with them. They ARE going in two different directions, yet there is a part of them that is still so attached to the other. I think what TPTB were trying to get across to the audience during HOM was the apparent final acceptance on both these character's parts to break that attachment. For each of them to finally admit to THEMSELVES that it's really over. While they had been wedged apart before, I don't think their attachment to each other had ever been in question. Now, we're supposed to question it. (Of course it's still there, but they want us to start doubting them).

[/B]

I thought your whole post was interesting and very insightful, but I just wanted to comment on this part. I agree with you about Liz. I had almost forgotten how much she needs to be in control in her life. I also agree that we are supposed to start doubting Max and Liz, because the dreamers amongst us have probably had their love up on a pedestal and it is a test for us as well as them. Max had the challenge to forgive Liz and begin to love her again even though she apparently slept with Kyle. He appears to have failed. From what is hinted at in the promo, for Max and Liz to get back together she would have to get past him being with Tess even if it is under the influence of whatever. Or, horror of horrors he actually did it of his own free will! TPTB are perhaps showing us that although Max is part alien, he is also just a hormonally driven teenage boy, who can't be with the one he loves so loves the one he's with. They may be going for the 'people make mistakes and love is about forgiveness' angle. If that is the case, a reunion is a long way off, because a lot of water will have to flow under the bridge before that happens.

IMHO, I believe that FM & FL needed Tess to stick around - not for PM to fall in love with her - but in order for them all to "observe" her moves. FM told Liz that he TRUSTS her and NOT Tess!! "It's you I trust".

I also believe, that b/c FM didn't and couldn't tell Liz, he was protecting her as best as he could. He didn't want to scare Liz - b/c if she were frightened in any way, how would she react to Tess?? This could alienate Tess as well --- but she was needed to stick around to make the "4 a complete unit!!" In other words, under no circumstances was Tess to leave town!!

*****

IMHO, I believe Tess was evil right from the start!! I realize that there are many different opinions of her, but S1 left me un-trusting of her character. She seemed too suspicsious to me (as well as Nacedo)!! Her "good" personality that has been shining through this Season - I believe it to be an act!! Let's get everyone to trust me, befriend me, then watch me pounce!!

We've been expecting that Max will prove to be suffering from "Recovered Memory Syndrome", and that his memories of Twilo are somehow an artifact (of Tess).

But wait, there's more! Tess herself was given the memory recovery treatment by "Harding". It's possible that she, too, is suffering from RMS. Remember, it's her "memories" that make her stick to Max like a refrigerator magnet.

All the NM3 podsters were created "blank", with no memories of Twilo. It's reasonable to expect that Tess would have been blank, too. "Harding" had her long enough to add "memories", and those shape her relationship with Max and the others.

Suppose: "Harding" wants the Royal Four to fail (again). He may be setting Max up with the same situation that killed him before: a close advisor, with bad advice.

So many theories, so little sense...

hibiscus, good point on a lot may have happened in our missing 6 weeks.

I have a whole different take on the Max/Liz relationship, actually. I've always felt that so much of the foundation of their relationship was based on faith. Through so many of their trials and tribulations to this point the two of them have remained 'attached' because of that faith. I don't think it's so much going to be a case of Liz forgiving Max for the Tess thing, but rather Liz will have FAITH that things are not as they appear to be. I think she might be momentarily thrown and hurt by the situation, however I think once she realizes the truth she will be able to forgive Max, because she will know that he wasn't in control.

I don't know how much Liz will have to 'get past' to forgive Max... Remember, Max is going to have some of his own stuff to 'get past' when it is revealed to him that Liz never actually slept with Kyle. These two have been through so much together already that I believe these things that have come between them are going to make them so much stronger when they are finally together.

I know a lot of fans on FF want to kind of trivialize this relationship and write it off that TPTB are playing to the lowest common demoninator, but I just don't believe that to be the case. I don't think TPTB are trying to 'test the dreamers' as much as they are writing a story that involves situations which require their characters to grow, change and evolve.

The thing that makes Max and Liz so special is this 'attachment' to each other. This underlying faith and belief and feeling between the two of them. I think that is what is going to get them both through.

I honestly don't believe the Max and Tess thing can be written off as a situation of Max not being able to be with the one he loves, so he loves the one he's with. (great song, by the way). It's 'Alien Stuff' and Liz is going to realize this, solve the problem and save the day.

{~}:}

Knowing that producing viable heirs is the lifeblood (so to speak) of any royal family, whoever sires the heir wins the game! That's why Tess is doing what she's doing, and, I daresay, that's why Alex has died. Don't forget that Isabel's child would be ruler if Max died childless... This is even more threatening to the differing factions of the V when it's taken into account that her love interest is a human. It may be that Alex died, not just because Vilandra is being punished for her past betrayal for love, but because they were headed towards mating and the Twiloans saw that as a threat to the crown.

That would make Liz a threat, too, of course.

There also seems to be a high likelihood that the aliens are extremely fertile, so a single encounter would probably produce the heir. That may be why TicTac was watching Max and Liz in the desert -- either to protect them from others who would stop them or to stop them himself...

Zara

"Faith" is what prevailed Liz to investigate in TLV. She knows that Max is the "most honourable guy around". The fact that they never even reconciled with each other and she gave the speech "we need to let go" signifies to me that their attachment to each other is very deep within -- FAITH!!

A lot of their relationship has been apart - look at S1. Yet their love for each other continues -- they went to the prom together with Max saying "sure we are friends, but we are also not seeing anyone else either". He knows that Liz & Kyle are not an item, I feel he has forgiven her - whether he believes the sleeping-together to be true or not. FAITH is what is going on between these two!!

tp & meta, Right On with your assessment of Liz's faith in Max. I think skating with Sean is just a way to keep her from being angry at Max. And I think huggybehr agrees with us, but was focusing on a different aspect, am I right hb?

Okay, now, I'm surprised nobody else has posted this yet. Malamud, the dude with the hots for Tess, has an interesting name. There is Bernard Malamud: quote:from GaleNet's Discovering Biography
Malamud's stories and novels, in which reality and fantasy are frequently interlaced, have been compared to parables, myths, and allegories and often illustrate the importance of moral obligation. Although he draws upon his Jewish heritage to address the themes of sin, suffering, and redemption, Malamud emphasizes human contact and compassion over orthodox religious dogma. Malamud's characters, while often awkward and isolated from society, evoke both pity and humor through their attempts at survival and salvation. Sheldon J. Hershinow observed: "Out of the everyday defeats and indignities of ordinary people, Malamud creates beautiful parables that capture the joy as well as the pain of life; he expresses the dignity of the human spirit searching for freedom and moral growth in the face of hardship, injustice, and the existential anguish of life. I thought his name was also borrowed for a character in Brave New World or Nineteen Eighty Four...anyone recall?

I haven't had a chance to catch up with everything on this thread because my computer is being so sloooooow.

And I'm sure you huys have mentioned this because you never miss anything but...talking about the M/T/L and the (IMHO obvious) mind warping going on, the other threads are assuming that Tess is doing the mind warping.

Now, I have grown to like Tess for the last 6 episodes (except HOM) and I do not like to think that she is evil. It just throws the whole, 'we need Tess to survive' thing off. She can not be evil and stay, once that deception is discovered (and it will be discovered because I am a pollyanna dreamer and anything else is unacceptable). So, what if Tess is not doing the warping? What if Nicholas is?

In Wipe Out Courtney said that Nicholas can do "everything you can, times 1000." And the end of the season would be the time to bring back the main villan of season 2.

This way, if Tess is being warped too (and maybe Kyle after his departure from "wick trimming" to sister) she can still be good at the end of this when we find out the truth about what is going on.

Now you are all thinking, this is the LIZ MYTH thread, not the Max/Tess thread so what is your point? O.K. here comes the link...

Liz keeps Max in Roswell. She is his anchor to this world and to his human side. Lets face it, Max is safe on Earth. That is why he was sent there. He is safe in Roswell. Max would never have gone to NY if EOTW had not happened, regardless of the Isobel/Velondra thing. Nicholas tried to kill Max in NY (with Lonny's help) but Liz saved him. Nicholas tried to kill Max in Roswell, but failed because Liz figured out the green rod of cheezy special effects. Nicholas needs to get Max away from Liz if he is ever going to get rid of him (and in doing so, get Kivar to let him come home). What better way than to get Max with Tess? And since Max is the "increadibly, increadibly honerable guy" we know him to be, the best way to seal Max to Tess, is to make him think that she is carring his child.

The bottom line is that being away from Liz (either physically or emotionally) makes Max vulnerable. Thus, being with Tess makes Max vulnerable. Nicholas wants Max vulnerable, thus, Nicholas wants Max with Tess.

That is my theory and I am sticking to it.

I also think it is about restoring the balance. By embracing his alien side, Max is losing touch with what makes him also human. Taking a step back, will enable Liz to see the bigger picture, and if alien weirdness proves to be at the bottom of it, she will be the one to bring it out into the open. I just don't think we should lose sight of the fact that Max is also human and that the writers may be exploring how a normal human might react. Both Liz and Max appear to have lost faith in their relationship and turned to others for comfort. The test will be whether the connection they share enables them to get past the trials ahead and whether they believe in each other enough to show the faith that will bring them back to each other. I think the audience is also part of this journey or they would let us in on what is really happening so we could sit back and comfortably watch it all play out. I suspect that is what is at the root of some people's reactions to HOM we are just along for the ride, presented with what is on the surface and many are beginning to lose faith.

The $64,000 question is, will Max and Liz?

Edited to say, thank you Shapeshifter, you understood what I was getting at! And thanks for your comment on my earlier post

About EOTW, I am STILL hanging onto the possibiltiy of us meeting "Serena" -- the one FMAX mentioned! I can't help but think that she is Liz's protector! I am betting that whatever liz finds out in these coming epis is going to be crucial to the Royal 4...and that her importance to the mythology will be revealed in greater detail.....i still think that Liz lived another life with the Royal 4 and that Max met her after he had met liz. If max is receiving his earlier memories first, then it could be that her presence in his past life is yet to be unveiled.....and i am betting that if this happens, it will send the Royal 4 spinning...i mean they are soo sure that they have this destiny but in truth they know so very little about it! I also think that Liz will uncover evidence that she is MORE THan important to their existance...i think there is a possibility that she could be the one that they are really supposed to be protecting!

I agree with the person who pointed out the FMAX didn't trust Tess.....if through all of that time she still couldn't gain a little trust than maybe their was a reason for distrust....I mean look at her power -- mindwarping ....sounds deceving in more ways than one!!

Liz keeps Max in Roswell. She is his anchor to this world and to his human side. Lets face it, Max is safe on Earth. That is why he was sent there. He is safe in Roswell. Max would never have gone to NY if EOTW had not happened, regardless of the Isobel/Velondra thing. Nicholas tried to kill Max in NY (with Lonny's help) but Liz saved him. Nicholas tried to kill Max in Roswell, but failed because Liz figured out the green rod of cheezy special effects. Nicholas needs to get Max away from Liz if he is ever going to get rid of him (and in doing so, get Kivar to let him come home). What better way than to get Max with Tess? And since Max is the "increadibly, increadibly honerable guy" we know him to be, the best way to seal Max to Tess, is to make him think that she is carring his child.

The bottom line is that being away from Liz (either physically or emotionally) makes Max vulnerable. Thus, being with Tess makes Max vulnerable. Nicholas wants Max vulnerable, thus, Nicholas wants Max with Tess.

That is my theory and I am sticking to it.

I totally agree -- great theory

Hi Huggybehr... I am also enjoying this discussion and now I see that we aren't that far apart in our thinking either! I think that there is a lot of fan reaction to the current storyline that has been clouding my judgement. I don't think TPTB are deliberately trying to hurt the 'Dreamers' or test their faith. I do think TPTB are taking the audience on a journey and they are doing this through the characters. The fact that they brought back Liz's journal says to me that we (the audience) are supposed to look at this storyline as it plays out through Liz's perspective.

In regards to the audience having to forgive either the alien weirdness or the human frailty, I think it comes back down to viewing this storyline as it plays out through Liz's perspective. Let me explain -- TPTB aren't showing us the whole story, they are literally showing us what Liz knows. Notice that we know everything about EOTW (Max doesn't) -- but we have no idea what is going on currently -- if evil aliens are involved, Tess is mindwarping or any of it. This storyline will become clearer to us to us (the audience) as it becomes clearer to Liz. When Liz finds out the truth so will we.

Regarding Max and Liz getting back together and being able to forgive each other, my point was that they BOTH will have stuff to 'get past' and deal with. There has been a lot of stuff that has happened that they will both need to reconcile.

The thing that is important to remember is not so much the ACTIONS but the MOTIVES. Why did Liz do what she did in EOTW? Her motives were good. If you attach that filter to Max's actions and ask yourself what was his motives in hooking up with Tess, I think you will find that he is also innocent of wrongdoing. He was being manipulated, tricked, or whatever... The point is, he wasn't deliberately trying to hurt Liz or be untrue to her..he was reacting to circumstance. I think that Liz, as a character, will be able to make the destinction between actions and motives, and I think she will be able to forgive Max. I think that the 'forgiving' will entail a whole bunch of faith, trust, and personal growth... It might not be easy, but it's definitely possible.

These two characters have not lost faith in each other inspite of everything we are being shown right now. Just because Max and Tess and Sean and Liz look like they might end up together, does not mean that Max and Liz are through. Sean said it best when he told Liz you can't even be with me without wondering what Max would think. I think there is more truth to this statement than most fans would like to believe.

I personally think that this current storyline is in place so that it frees Liz up -- or puts her in the correct frame of mind so that she can figure out whatever it is that needs to be figured out and save the day once again. This is just a guess, because I have become unspoiled again (yay!!) but I would like to suggest that even though Liz saw Max and Tess together that it will still be apparent to us in the upcoming episodes that they still have a HUGE CONNECTION. Not sure how this will play out, but I am so sure it will happen.

In regards to the mindwarping, I'm still really disappointed if this is what they decide to use as an explanation of things. It's WEAK and such an easy way out.

And may I suggest to all of you, that if you have any doubts about M/L being able to find their way back to each other, you should re-read Zero's amazing introduction for a MILLION AND ONE REASONS WHY THEY WILL FIND THEIR WAY BACK TO EACH OTHER, and why their connection is bigger than the little storylines that are playing out at the moment. The mythologists have deemed it so......

Keep the faith everyone, these two will prevail!

{~}:}

Then Season 3 we can have that character trying to redeem herself, not coupled with Max of course, but with the Valenti's. I still would like to see Tess come out of this being able to balance her human side, which she is just starting to know, with the alien side that was 'programmed' into believing certain things by Nasedo.

The whole concept of 'We make our own destiny' is something that Tess doesn't understand. She believes her destiny to be what Nasedo brought her up believing it was. How interesting it would be to see the character struggle with what she was brought up to know vs. what she is learning to know now through the podsquad and the humans.

I think she really adds something to the Valenti's, and I think maybe forgiving Tess could be part of the podsquad not repeating past mistakes. This also wouldn't totally nullify the plotline TPTB set forth in TEOTW. To err is human -- to forgive, divine. IMHO, this would make for a much more fascinating storyline then simply having Tess be evil and explain it away by mindwarps.... zzzzzzzzzzz.....

OK, I admit it. I would like to see the Tess character redeemed and watch her grow. Psychologically speaking, it would be all about learning to overcome your 'childhood' or your 'supposed place in life' to make your own future. The [possible] character growth of Tess would tie very nicely into the rest of the Roswell canon.

But you know...I just don't think they are going to go there with this character, and I think that makes this season kind of pointless in regards to all of the Tess scenes we had all year and especially the whole EOTW storyline. Because if you take away that -- what are we left with. The skins and grandpa dupree. Not a lot happening....

Again, I hope TPTB don't decide to take the easy way out with Tess. Am I alone in thinking that if they use mindwarping and mindraping as a way out of this mess - that is just WEAK? Conceivably, they can use that excuse to explain away just about everything... Sigh.

Here's to hoping....

{~}:}

Metaphysicalgrl ITA with you. In the Tess not being evil AND mindwarp being the easy explanation, cuz it would kinda ruin the destiny issue being dealt with if Max isn't trying to solve it under his own will. BUT, the one thing that appeals to me about the mindwarp is that the pregnancy thing could be explained. I know, I know, i just can't get off that, but it really bothers me and just don't know how TPTB can explain their way out of that one short of saying "yeah, he really did sleep with her"(if not a mindwarp) YUCK! Not appealing in the least, so what's a good explanation that can make everyone happy? The dreamers, Tess defenders, and anyone else?

Roxy

Gosh, I haven't lurked here for a while, but HOM made me want to read something that would hopefuly give me a more positive outlook on the rest of the season. I was ready to stop watching, so I guess I owe it to you guys to keep me hooked on Roswell. Anyways, I love your newest ideas on what's gonna happen and what has happened. I have a few bits of input to add in:

1) I find it completely odd how Liz doesn't trust nor likes Tess, but she and Ava seemed to becoem friends overnight or something. And eventhough my dad did point out that it could have been b/c Ava wasn't trying to steal Max, I still find that weird.

2) This is completely off topic and refers back to last season. But I've been rewatching the old eppys, and this came up. Remember in 'Blood Brothers' Liz and Max are cutting school and are in the jeep, driving on the old highway, and a song came on the radio? Here's the dialouge spoken:

LIZ: Oh, my God. I love this song.
MAX: Me, too.
LIZ (VOICEOVER): Have you ever had a moment when you're with the one person in the world you want to be with and the wind is blowing through your hair [b]and the song that just describes your entire soul happens to come on, and then the person that you want to be with happens to love the same song and suddenly you realize you're listening to it together?[b/]...

Well, anyways, I got curious to what the song was so I went onto one of the Roswell music sites and downloaded it. The other day in class, my friend and I had finished our work early, so we took out the lyrics I typed up and sort of analyzed it to see what the song that 'describes Liz's soul last season' could mean. This is what we came up with:

"You Make Me Feel" by Jeremy Toback

[i] Have you ever seen the Sunset Strip
your dream down to the bown
We used to try
To live a deep dark life
But we were all alone[i/]

This part is describing Max and Liz before the healing. Max wouldn't let anyone in, leaving him all alone. As for Liz, she didn't really realize the world outside her normal life, and was actually missing a lot of things she would experience later.

[i] Went to Emerald City
To keep that dream alive
We saw gold
And a light bright life
But there was no sun inside[i/]

Okay, this part descrives the FMax stuff. The Emerald City = Las Vegas (it's shiny enough). The "to keep that dream alive" could mean they got married to keep their dream of being together real. The rest, "we saw gold and a light bright life" means they had a terrific life together, and "but there was no sun inside" = it lead to the end of the world.

[i] CHOURS:
You make me feel
Like falling down is falling up
You make me feel
Like loving you is just my luck
Just my luck[i/]

Anyways, I felt the first two lines in the chorus was really reminiscint of Max's speech at the end of HW. You know, the whole: "No matter what we go through, it's all worthwild for me because we're together." And it show's later in the season, that despite every bad event that happened to them, Max and Liz were happy cause they were in love.

[i]Now we live up in the canyon
With the coyotes and the falling stars
And I've got you
When the day gets dark
To light my way[i/]

The first two lines sort of tells that they live in a desert environment. And the falling stars could = the aliens. As for the whole "And I've got you when the day gets dark to light my way." It shows they completer each other and are always there to help each other out and figure things out. Especially Liz, who, as you all have pointed out, is the real catalyst in the story who puts two and two together all the time to get us where we are now.

I was also thinking with the last two lines of that section: "When the day gets dark to light my way." about all the tess possibly controlling Max theories you've developed. The darkness could be the brain washing and Liz could be the one who will light his way out of this.

[i]You make me feel
Like falling down is falling up
You make me feel
Like loving you is just my luck
You make me feel
Isn't that enough[i/]

The last two lines added to the chorus, well, Max has opened up all these feelings Liz hasn't felt before he came into her life. Plus, wasn't Liz saying something about feeling in HOM?

[i]With the century quickly slipping away
We try to find the balance
Let's divine a nursery rhyme
And turn it into practice
And let's let down our guard
So we can raise this love[i/]

We think this part is forshadowing what remains to happen in the rest of theis season. The first line means that time is running out for the Roswellians, which, I guess, based on recent events and the commercials, is. The second line mentions finding balance, which has been a critical part with the aliens and Max and Liz's relationship. And wouldn't the possible tess brainwashing put Max out of balance? So, he'd need Liz to balance him out again like in BD. Divine is an interesting choice of word to use, especially in conjuction with Roswell. Divine, according to my dictionary, can mean "to infer, prophesy" amongst other definitions. Well, don't some of us think that Liz is part of some alien prophecy? "And turn it into practice" may mean that we might get to eventually discover some alien prophecy leading back to Liz.

The rest of the song is the chorus again. Anyways, we may have been reading into this song way too much, but wouldn't TPTB pick out certain songs to use in episodes for a reason. And even though we only heard like the first two lines in BB, Liz did say this was the song that described her soul. Okay, now I'm babbling. Maybe you guys could figure something more out based on this song or something.

I guess nobody liked my LEAST DEEP guy in America--Least Deep meaning SHALLOW-Doug Shallow thing huh? LOL!!!

I guess nobody liked my LEAST DEEP guy in America--Least Deep meaning SHALLOW-Doug Shallow thing huh? LOL!!!

Actually, I forgot to mention it, but I thought it was GREAT!! Sorry about not mentioning it. I don't think it was purposeful, the connection I mean, but it was insightful and observant, none the less.

{~}:}

Anyway, the first Season of Roswell was totally Earth-shattering, in my opinion, and I'm teetering on a fine line between Unconventional and Conventional shipper, but there's something kinda magic about Max and Liz, that I always come back to, maybe because of the flashes Liz and Max experienced throughout their "togetherness" in the 1st season.

Being the ever-changing person that I am, never keeping the same opinion, thought or idea for longer than a month or so, it kind of got me thinking about why I like Liz and Max so much.

Anyway, the theory I've formed about Liz is that even if she wasn't originally part of the big Royal Four picture, she has to be now because Max changed her when he healed her. She's part alien now, and no matter how hard she tries to set everything straight, to smooth over the snags, insisting that she and Max are drifting apart, they can't just leave her behind.

I doubt Sean is anything more than Maria's cousin (brother?), unknowing about the alien factor, because if he wasn't, then how could you explain all of Maria and Amy's past memories about him being in their family? I doubt it's some kind of Nikolas/Tess mind control thing, because that would bring Roswell way too close to the Buffy plot now, what with Dawn as her little sister.

If you ever read the Celestine Prophecy, part of it has something to do with nothing ever being a coincidence. Whenever you meet someone, and they supply you with some kind of information, or cause you to experience something totally different, you shouldn't just shrug it off. It has permanently changed you and the direction in which you are heading in life.

So, I think Liz plays a key role in Roswell, because even though Max is destined for Tess, everything is now permanently changed because Max and Liz connected.

Throughout history, almost all written word that has to do with Law or Way of Life, has been questioned quite thoroughly by skeptics, or has been overthrown due to a change in technology, or an event occuring to make people believe that this Law or way of Life is no longer right.

What I'm getting at is, and I have no idea if this has been proposed before, is that something happened to change The destiny of The Royal Four, and that was Max healing Liz. They are forever connected, and Tess cannot possibly break such a spiritual connection.

Just wanted to say that Liz first flashes actual wasn't in Sexual Healing, it was in Th Ufo Convention...I was watching it last night.

It was doing the part when Jennifer and Larry first walked in to the Crashdown again...she had a flash...but because she was not with Max...maybe she didn't noticed it then.

I say that to say that I believe that LIz's powers are growing...and that by the end of this season, I bet her powers will become even stronger...

And yea, peej, definitely the same ol' same ol' with Tess.

I've just about abandoned my hope that she and Liz could be friends once Tess gives up on Max--it seemed hopeful til Kyle got his sister vision.

So if Liz's necklace is an opal, and her birthday is not October (I checked Zero's timeline, and we don't know for sure), then it could be symbolic of bad luck. But as a moonstone, it could just be symbolic of moons--like in Max's Tessovision.

I agree the TEOTW makes is hard for an evil Tess, except we don't know what happened in the original timeline. We don't know where Tess went when she left Roswell. We know nothing what she did or when she died. All we know is that she left and they ended up needing her. I really think that the writers are using Tess to mess with our minds.

Edited to ask what you guys thought about my post about the strategic lyrics in the show.

quote:Originally posted by Eraser Room

The bottom line is that being away from Liz (either physically or emotionally) makes Max vulnerable. Thus, being with Tess makes Max vulnerable. Nicholas wants Max vulnerable, thus, Nicholas wants Max with Tess

I'm not very good with the myth posts, you guys come up with things I usually miss but this is my two cents. ITA Max is vulnerable now that's he's away from Liz. In Season 1 even though they were apart the connection did not allow for any intrusion, not even Tess and I believe that's mostly because Liz couldn't "let him go". Now she feels she needs to take a step back because of what FMax has told her and because of this, Tess has an entry that she could never have gotten during the first season. I believe that Max's need for Liz is instinctive, everything in him connects with her, she balances him, she is in a sense, his human side. Once she finds her footing again and fights back I believe she'll get Max to see what's going on around him.

Then Season 3 we can have that character trying to redeem herself, not coupled with Max of course, but with the Valenti's. I still would like to see Tess come out of this being able to balance her human side, which she is just starting to know, with the alien side that was 'programmed' into believing certain things by Nasedo.
...
OK, I admit it. I would like to see the Tess character redeemed and watch her grow. Psychologically speaking, it would be all about learning to overcome your 'childhood' or your 'supposed place in life' to make your own future. The [possible] character growth of Tess would tie very nicely into the rest of the Roswell canon.
...

Exactly! This is precisely what I want them to do with Tess. Maybe it's easier for me, having come into Roswell from S&B and not seeing Tess' S1 manipulations till halfway through the HC. The realy interesting thing is, it would be a nice parallel with proto-Zan's character. You know, an essentially good person who screwed up bigtime. And it would be a much more compelling storyline of Tess is also being manipulated than if she's been evil the whole time. I mean, coming at it backwards, I found her creepy in TLV & 4S, but after that I found her kind of pitiful. She seemed to think that as soon as their "true destiny" was revealed, everyone would just fall into line behind her. And when they didn't--when Max says that Liz is one of them, Tess isn't--she is hurt and confused.

shapeshifter In Ask Not, when Max is walking her home, Tess says specifically that Nasedo taught her some MRTs. So she definitely got them from him, not Kyle's under-bed reading material OT: I've always found it amusing that in Missing, the only thing under Kyle's bed was a framed photo of him & Liz, and then in AN, he's got a ton of "stuff" under there!

K, I have a bunch more to say but I'll do it separately

I Shall Believe
~Tas

Meta ITA with everything you said about Liz's character needing control. It's like army personnel that have gone MIA: it's easier on the family members to know unequivocally that their son/daughter/etc. is dead, than to always wonder. Liz even said during the dance that she feels like she's just been waiting for bad news and it's paralyzing. Now she knows, and she's not paralyzed anymore. Also, great points about Kyle. Esp. "resistant" being an odd word to use.

Zara Good point; I'd never thought about Isabel's children being the heirs if Max remains childless. Also, I believe that TicTac was there in the morning in SH to prevent anything from happening with M&L. We'll never know if he would have interrupted the previous evening; the orb managed that!

Eraser Room ITA, being with Tess, away from Liz, makes Max vulnerable. Liz is his balance

Zero I'm not 100% sure that I'm going yet, but I am registered for the party!

I Shall Believe
~Tas

Reggie – while I agree with huggybehr’s take on Tess – I do agree with you that she may have had memories that she has had implanted in her by Harding, and as some of us suspect, the Dupes/Lonnie/Nicko – BUT still how she uses those memories combined with her powers will ultimately cause the judgment of her. I will hold my judgment until the season plays out, but as it is beginning to unfold, don’t be surprised if those of us who don’t trust her are proven right.

Tp – I agree that Future Max was not being totally forthcoming to PL for a reason, but I’m not totally sure why? BUT I do think that fact that he did not trust Tess, only trusting Liz was the most telling fact of the entire episode.

Met – I believe that your “faith” analysis is basically the same as the advice to follow their hearts. Liz is at her best when she is using her intelligence, but following her Heart. I think this will be what ultimately brings them back together.

Can someone tell me what WORD means??

Eraser Room – I think most of us believe school is still out on Tess, and I do agree that I doubt we have seen the last of Nicko/Lonnie/Rath/Ava. I also like you theory re: how to make Max vulnerable, keep him separated from Liz! SO, stick with it !

Met – Thanks for praising my Intro – but it is true – IF you have any doubt in Max & Liz, reread it! There are SO MANY clues pointing to the fact that they will end up together. I have no doubt, I just hope I can stand the ride! But then, I was recently at Walt Disney World, so I’m good at wild rides right now!

Oh – and I agree with the multi-dimensional approach to Tess. I always like characters that are fully developed best, good or bad, or a mixture of both. It is just more interesting – and to be honest – more realistic even in a Sci-Fi world.

Lizzie P and all other lurkers/newbies – If we have any involvement in your continued enjoyment of Roswell, than I feel very happy! ! Great analysis of the song – thanks – but for future reference, the “Emerald City” is Seattle’s nickname, but I like your interpretation more.

Grace Kel – I loved your “least Deep Guy” = Shallow as in Doug Shellow! I guess I didn’t mention it – Sorry! I would never have noticed that! I don’t have any opinion on the bowling alley, other than the blue lines were totally cool! Nemo??

Goddess Farore51 – Welcome – and great analysis – you’ll fit right in here!

Ava Speaks – I agree that Liz’s powers are growing, and I hope that we see them used in the future!

Tas – that would be great if you go to the party. I’m still not 100%, but I’m registered and planning on going!

See you all later –
Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!

I am not judging Tess at this point, I'll wait and see what develops, but there is evidence to point to this possibility. We know very little about Tess. Before she came to Roswell she spent 10 years with Ed and told Lonnie and Rath that they were very close, yet she told Max in MTTM that he never let her get close to him. Less than a year with humans most of which was spent with her firmly on the outside is not enough to bring about major change, so I could easily see her falling back into bad habits. The power to deceive is a very dangerous thing for someone without a solid moral foundation.

The other thing I wanted to comment on, was Max being vulnerable without Liz. That appears to be what we are seeing during season 2, but why? I wonder what sort of message this is giving about Max? He is supposed to be a leader yet he falls apart because his romantic life is a mess? Even if the memory retrieval was real I would question Tess' motivation. Of all the things Max needs to remember about his past, remembering that he loved Tess is the least important to their mission on earth. Why isn't she helping him to remember the political situation and the war at home? Surely if Max agreed to the MRT, this would be his motivation. If Max wanted to be with Tess, he would want to be with the person she is now, not the memory of who she formerly was? I am completely mystified by Max's actions, which is probably why I suspect there is more going on than meets the eye. He is just not himself and what concerns me the most is that if Tess is controlling him by herself, either she is a lot more powerful than she is letting on, or Max is weak. I do not like that implication and I hope that season 3 Max grows into his powers so that he is once again Liz's equal not dependent upon her and therefore worthy of her love.

While I honestly believe TPTB are going to take the easy way out and have Tess be evil and call it a day, I am standing firmly in my belief that this is WEAK.

I'm not even interested in seeing Tess get closer to Max, I'm interested in seeing her grow and change because of her relationship to the Valenti's and the fact that the other's have let her in. She belongs. I have no problem accepting that there is 'evil' in the world, as you put it, but I have never viewed Tess as evil. From a psychological standpoint she really is quite sad. When she was first presented on the scene I actually felt bad for her. I'm not going to get into it again, but I clearly felt that Tess was a product of nature vs. nurture. Had she grown up with the others, there might have been a very different tale to tell.

My beef with the writers is that this storyline of Tess being evil, etc... seems to have been pulled out of their collective cracks if you get my drift. They wrote themselves into a corner and are using this to get themselves out. Not only does it negate TEOTW (how can they explain TODAY what was going on with Future Max? If he was being totally forthcoming? They CAN'T so to me that excuse is NOT plausible) -- it also negates the very explosive end to last season. What's the point? In any case, there's no use complaining about it --- Yet... because we have yet to see where they are going with this.

I know many people hate Tess, but I am going to reiterate that I hope instead of taking the easy way out and make her 100% evil, they show her as someone in conflict - someone who has made some bad mistakes but didn't have purely evil motives. Misguided motives, but not evil. I am allowed to have that hope!

In any case, as always on this thread, we just have to agree to disagree about Tess. I'm pretty confident that you will be the one who is correct in the end, however, I need to let everyone know that I am disappointed by this. That is just one more character on Roswell with a lot of unrealized potential.

Thanks for listening!

{~}:}

Sharing In The Groove

Okay, newish theory: During SH and other eps, Max got flashes from Liz. Of course Michael saw red sneakers too. But what if the flashes are a form of the mind warp, just not a 'controlled' power? Recall Nasedo said all of their powers were human. It would be interesting to see Liz use her post-healing power to block a mind warp.

Zero, So, "Emerald City" is Seattle? I recall the skins wishing they were in a moister climate.
And "Word" I think originated in South Central Los Angeles (or so I was told by a young man from that 'hood'), and basically it is an exclamation indicating that one agrees with what another has said. I believe it derives from the idea of the Bible and/or Jesus being "the Word" and therefore 'absolute truth.' Anyone have a different etymology?

Thanks Meta, Shapeshifter and Zero for responding about the LEAST DEEP thing--does it mean something I guess we will have to wait and see.
Zero--I don't know if you misunderstood the picture I was talking about in the bowling alley--I am talking about the back wall behind where all the pins are? Does it look to anyone else like TALL BUILDINGS--SKYSCRAPERS--a CITY? Like maybe New York?

It would be nice to have the next frame or two, I guess.

I do see what you mean (I think); to me it looks like she's dancing in the skyline above the city!
When I first saw her dancing in the lanes at the beginning of the episode (before it was clear that she was in a bowling alley) I thought she was dancing on the rings of a planet.

Zara

Shapeshifter and GraceKel, thanks for the support.

Re the least deep guy in America, given that Doug Shellow turned out to be no more than he seemed, perhaps that is all Sean will be. A necessary distraction for Liz, who will ultimately make her realise that she really cannot be with anyone other than Max, just like Adam in the books. Isn't your S theory that they are usually helpful, except for Grant Sorenson?

Remember in 'Blood Brothers' Liz and Max are cutting school and are in the jeep, driving on the old highway, and a song came on the radio? Here's the dialouge spoken:

LIZ: Oh, my God. I love this song.
MAX: Me, too.
LIZ (VOICEOVER): Have you ever had a moment when you're with the one person in the world you want to be with and the wind is blowing through your hair [b]and the song that just describes your entire soul happens to come on, and then the person that you want to be with happens to love the same song and suddenly you realize you're listening to it together?...

"You Make Me Feel" by Jeremy Toback

Have you ever seen the Sunset Strip
your dream down to the bown
We used to try
To live a deep dark life
But we were all alone

Went to Emerald City
To keep that dream alive
We saw gold
And a light bright life
But there was no sun inside

CHORUS:
You make me feel
Like falling down is falling up
You make me feel
Like loving you is just my luck
Just my luck

Anyways, I felt the first two lines in the chorus was really reminiscint of Max's speech at the end of HW. You know, the whole: "No matter what we go through, it's all worthwild for me because we're together." And it show's later in the season, that despite every bad event that happened to them, Max and Liz were happy cause they were in love.

Now we live up in the canyon
With the coyotes and the falling stars
And I've got you
When the day gets dark
To light my way

You make me feel
Like falling down is falling up
You make me feel
Like loving you is just my luck
You make me feel
Isn't that enough[i/]

The last two lines added to the chorus, well, Max has opened up all these feelings Liz hasn't felt before he came into her life. Plus, wasn't Liz saying something about feeling in HOM?

[i]With the century quickly slipping away
We try to find the balance
Let's divine a nursery rhyme
And turn it into practice
And let's let down our guard
So we can raise this love

Divine, according to my dictionary, can mean "to infer, prophesy" amongst other definitions. Well, don't some of us think that Liz is part of some alien prophecy? "And turn it into practice" may mean that we might get to eventually discover some alien prophecy leading back to Liz.
[/B]

Lizzie Parker - you and your friend earned big kudo points with me. When I first read your post, I was think that you had the song wrong... But I was thinking of the Foo Fighters? "Looking for the Sky to Save Me" was the one playing in the hall. If we put the two songs togeter - under your critical microscope, I wonder what symbolism we could generate.

I rewatched the clip on my CD copy of the episode, and you are right.

Still, I've seen Cry Your Name, off of the sattelite feed. We watched it several times, since we had it on tape. Once before, I publicly suggested that everyone should tape an upcoming episode, and folks said I was nuts. Still, I'll make that suggestion for CYN: you all might want to tape it.

The previous suggestion was for The End of the World.

Ever since EOTW aired I have thought that FMax was purposefully hiding the truth about Tess (that she is evil) from Liz in order to get her to break up with present Max.

FMax says he doesnt trust Tess - he also says that Tess and he do not have to be "together" - just that he and Liz have to break up AT THAT MOMENT. This flies in the face of what he would have told her if Tess was who she claims to be (in which case - he could have just explained that he was married to Tess and they were supposed to be together). EOTW was MUCH more complicated.
If Tess was not an imposter/evil - then FMax SHOULD have returned to an earlier time and changed history. Stopped his relationship with Liz BEFORE it started. To a time that would have spared Liz the heartbreak of having this intense connection form - only to be shattered and ripped from her.
I believe that FMAX returned when he did to ensure that his bond with Liz would be so strong that it would withstand the test of EOTW.
If you rewatch TEOW - FMax seems very stressed and tells Liz that he and Tess need to be together UNTIL the deception finally works - at the end - on the balcony - the way FMAX acts and tells Liz "the future is open - they could still end up together" - I think he KNOWS they will end up together because he KNOWS Liz is the true bride.

Something BAD with Tess was about to go down in EOTW and it had to be stopped.
Something bad enough to lead to the evil aliens invading and taking over the PLANET
(we have seen NO indication that they are going to do anything to Earth so far). Remember - at the time of EOTW Courtney was alive and moving in on Micheal, CW was alive and had Liz practically hand-delivered to her.
To me - an evil Tess totally fits in with the EOTW storyline.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox--yes I agree this could totally work for EOTW, yes why would he choose to come back then why not come back b4 Liz and Max ever hooked up--of course he wouldn't come back b4 she was shot because she would be dead but certainly he could have come back at a time b4 they were together to spare Liz this heartache. The time seemed carefully chosen, and it does seem that there could have been more to it--hell this is Roswell, there is always more to it. LOL!!!

First, regarding Tess. I always had the impression that story and character arcs are probably planned out for quite some time in advance so that the writers can do some foreshadowing, etc. That said, it seems that Tess became drastically more "likable" after Nasedo died. I'm guessing that he was probably important to whatever little evil plot she wanted to carry out so after he died she had to approach things differently. So Valenti took her in and suddenly she's Susie Sunshine and people start liking her better. Well, you know that expression "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar"? Tess probably figured that if she can get everyone to like and trust her than she can work her voodoo from inside the group. That way, it wouldn't be at all suprising if she stopped being nice now that she's met her goal (which I assume is getting Max).

Also, does anyone have a theory on why Liz did so much ballet in HOM? It really surprised me to see her doing ballet turns and everything. I know that Shiri did ballet when she was younger but I don't think they ever mentioned Liz being a dancer.

Kind of "Keep your friends close, Keep your enemies closer", right?

Just letting you know that I still lurk, and how disturbing things sound at the moment.

WR.

I think it looks like Liz is dancing on time.

The way the lanes are shown reminds me of when you look at the reflection of a mirror in a mirror and you get that look of infinity.

It just reminds me of time and the infinate possibilities of the time lines.

I really think this is a beautiful image Worthy of Roswell.

When Max sees the wedding vision in Vegas, there's this gentle theme that plays with a Spanish guitar solo. Switch to the school yard scene in HOM, when Liz and Max are at the table discussing events of a year ago. Max finishes Liz's sentence that things back then were more "simple" and the same melody begins again. Then Liz says "But you had something to tell me" and Max begins telling her he's having some memory retrieval from his previous life. The music changes as their conversation shifts and developes an ominous, possibly malevolent tone.

The Max/Liz theme can be heard yet once again beginning the moment Liz and Max set eyes on each other in the Crashdown. Someone on another thread (Tasyfa?) said there's something about the group prom photo that bothers them but they can't put their finger on it. I'm wondering if it's the fact that the same music continues to play softly all the way through that scene, even when Liz says she has the feeling they're all standing together like this for the last time. It will be interesting to see if we're going to hear that melody again anytime soon...

By the way, when Max and Tess are alone together, there is a complete absence of music. They do not have a song, not on the bed and not in the lobby. On both occasions, when the music begins, it's for Liz. -HH

Anyway, I was reading the posts after my last one, just skimming really, and with all this stuff about Tess being multidimensional and everything, something just occured to me.

I believe Courtney said that she had lived on the planet while the Royal Four were still in power (Before they died), and she supported Michael, etc. Anyway, TEss also said she has both vivid and vague memories of the planet (and we really don't have proof as to the method in which she obtained this) and of Max etc, so what if she remembered Courtney?

Remember how in Wipe Out, she was so eager to jump down Courtney's throat, where Michael felt perfectly comfortable around her (instinct or merely sexual attraction?).

What if Tess really is in on something evil, and she remembered that Courtney was involved in protecting the Royal Four (Okay, maybe none of them but Michael, but still). Maybe she remembered her the moment she saw her, but didn't want to jump to act immediately to look suspicious, since she was already still in an iffy position with everyone?

This is just a theory, food for thought, and once again, I apologize if this point has been made already.

But also, I don't necessarily believe that Tess is evil, nor do I necessarily agree with TEss and Max not following destiny. I like to keep my opinions open, and think about things from all angles. It's kind of enlightening.

TTFN

"To see you when I wake up
Is a gift, I didn't think could be real
To know that you feel the same as I do
Is a threefold utopian dream
You do something to me
That I can't explain
So would I be out of line If I said I miss you?

I see your picture, I smell your skin
On the empty pillow next to mine
You have only been gone ten days
But already I'm wasting away
I know I'll see you again
Whether far or soon
But I need you to know
That I care
And I miss you"
~"I Miss You" by Incubus

(Sorry, I hope I'm allowed to post songs here. Wanted to share cause it reminded me of Max and Liz. Stellar is another good Dreamer song too. Well, kinda)

That was pretty sharp, noticing the music In those three scenes. Stupid me forgot to watch Heart of Mine, but I did see Viva Las Vegas, and I did notice the music.

And the thing about Agates, That was really amazing too.

::claps::

huggybehr Your post about not all bad guys can be turned good was really great. But I would like her to be a mix of good and bad, it gives her more depth. She'd still be on the good side, but at the same time she'd remain the girl we love to hate

Since we're talking about this pic, I thought I'd put my input.

Looking at it, the lanes remind me of ocean waves. And Liz takes on the form of Christ. She looks like she's walking on water and the way her arms are take on the form on a cross. Does anyone else see it? I don't know where I'm going with this, but I thought I'd throw it out there and see what you guys think.

Roxy

P.S. I wanna thank those of you who PM'ed me about the preg. think. It was a moment of panic and I dunno what got into me, and I'm better now. Faith came back and doubt took a trip.

I really think that the writers have left the future of Tess open so that they could use her anyway they needed to. I am afraid that if they are closing up shop on Roswell (of course we don't know anything yet and we are staying positive) I think that they will make Tess evil. If they have another season to work with then they could make her multi-dimentional. As I see it evil Tess can only be a short term solution.

I love the idea Sunrise that the alley lanes look like waves in the water because the song playing in that scene is about how you can't fight the undertow when you are all alone and it asks how long til you'll let go? So I think that song goes perfectly with the image of water.

I am looking forward to hopefully having some more clues after tomorrows episode.

I just saw the promo again and this has probably already been mentioned, but I got the distinct feeling that when Liz says to Max this is all your fault - I felt she was blaming his future self. If he did not come back then there would possibly be no death. Just a random thought.

Thanks

And, awesome posts, everyone! I guess we were so shook up with HoM that we are really digging deep. Loved the music post, Han., and I guess it must be an Agate necklace, Vihmakass!

Reggie, poor guy! sounds like you're about to burst having seen the new ep already but can't share it. Well, say hi to Palomino for us.

About Tess & Courtney, now that it's been brought up, it seems natural that Tess the Max worshipper would so not like Courtney the Michael worshipper--think Democrats & Republicans, or Labor and Whatever opposing party is.

I agree with whoever posted (sorry) that if Liz thinks Sean is okay, then we should go with her judgement since that's one of the few consistancies we have--that Liz knows what's up and what's down. And as much as I like Tess with Kyle, Liz has said that Tess scares her and that she doesn't trust her. Also, remember when Tess went to the library with Kyle just before she took Max to the desert? I'm afraid poor Kyle is just a camoflage. Or maybe human Tess would really like to be with him, but her "recovered memories" have taken over her thinking like the Collective Consciousness of the books.

Starryeyedgypsy, I prefer your idea (that Liz is really acusing FM) to my idea (that Max was in the sack w/Tess when he could have been saving Alex's life) although I guess both could be true at the same time.

Metaphysicalgrl ITA with you. In the Tess not being evil AND mindwarp being the easy explanation, cuz it would kinda ruin the destiny issue being dealt with if Max isn't trying to solve it under his own will. BUT, the one thing that appeals to me about the mindwarp is that the pregnancy thing could be explained. I know, I know, i just can't get off that, but it really bothers me and just don't know how TPTB can explain their way out of that one short of saying "yeah, he really did sleep with her"(if not a mindwarp) YUCK! Not appealing in the least, so what's a good explanation that can make everyone happy? The dreamers, Tess defenders, and anyone else?

Roxy

Roxy, the theory I like is that Tess is good, however she is unwillingly being used by Nicholas and/or Lonnie and Rath. To keep everyone happy, by the end of the season, Nicholas/the Dupes' plan will be found out, Tess will be freed of their control, and Tess can go back to Kyle and Max and Liz will be back together. I also believe it would be interesting if Sean was in league with Nick/Lonnie/Rath, either knowingly or unknowingly.

I only have a few minutes to comment, so first HI! to all the lurkers and newbies posting! We always enjoy your take on things.

The discussion of Courtney has reminded me of a comment she made that has always bugged me. In Surprise, she chances on the back-room discussion by the Scooby Gang, and she says "I can guarantee you, no one is after Tess!" (or something to that affect). Now I do not believe that Courtney was in any way in league with CW, so that comment means she knew something about Tess from either her alien past or present that made her a NON-threat to the Skins and evil-aliens.

And Huggybehr and Met - I tend to fall in the mid-ground - though I believe you two are closer to the each other than you think. I too believe there is pure-evil in the world - (in x-files tonight it could "jump" from one person to another ) - but I do not believe Tess is pure-evil, and that taking such a route is a cop-out. I believe in the multi-dimensional approach to her character being the best approach! BUT I ulimately go back to LIZ'S opinion of Tess. I trust Liz's instincts when it comes to people/aliens, and though I believe Liz has been trying to accept Tess, she still does NOT trust her - that is all the evidence I need to not trust Tess! This also goes to how I feel about Sean. Liz seems to trust him in HOM, so I to do. Though I agree with the comments someone said that Sean was full of "lines" - Liz seems to trust him, so I do too - for now - plus, he drives a VW Bug, and I love Bugs!

Finally, the picture of Liz twirling, makes me think of her spinning through space. It is so beautiful!

Reggie - I always tape the shows, but I heard someone else say this is an excellent episode, so I too encourage all to tape it! I can hardly wait to see it! I'm Dying - no pun intended - to see how all the emotional scenes in the preview fit in, and the nature of the confrontation between L&M!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!

I dont know if I explained that well at all but it makes sense to me.
Let me try an analogy. Lets say I had a business partner that was embezelling money and undermining my business. If they felt that I was "on the verge" of discovering them - they could high-tail it to Tahiti - liquidate their asssets, basically ruin my life. BUT - if I could find out about their deception FIRST - without them knowing - I could turn the tables on THEM.
I believe that FMAX had great reason to hope that EOTW would allow Liz in a "safe space" to discover the trusth while Tess felt unthreatened.

The real heartbreaker is that Liz now has to carry with her the fact that she sacrificed Alex. He was alive in the EOTW timeline - so he is a casualty of the changed history.

GraceKel - the bowling alley DOES look like a cityscape.

Speaking of the dupes. I was driving along - thinking about Roswell and Alex's death and it just hit me - Alex's girlfriend in Sweden - Leanna.
Leanna = LONNIE.
Whatever happens to Alex - I am putting money on Lonnie being a part of it - and this would mean that Lonnie CAN shapeshift and is NOT a real podster - they are just a ploy to "dupe" Max and Co.
I am wondering is Tess and Nasedo were not working with them all along.......sending them yearbook and etc. Maybe when Tess said "she realized she didnt need Nasedo to keep on doing what they had been doing" - perhaps it involved sending that yearbook to some rebel shapeshifters that were lurking in the wings..............

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I've never posted here before...just lurk alot. Just wanted to let you know silverhandprint.com has been updated again with prom memories.

Liz Parker mentions the necklace she wears...saying basically it was Grandma Claudia's. It may mean something or not just thought you would want to know. Just follow the link.

http://www.silverhandprint.com/prom/memory/liz/02.html

...back to lurking

Firstly I will post a dancing significance idea. Liz's Dancing on the apparent "water" (bowling alley) at the end represents her soul. Dancing has a way of expressing feelings and emotions that the dancer feels at that moment in time. From the posture to the arm placement, the dancer conveys their thoughts through dance. Just like Maria conveys her feelings through song, and Alex conveys his emotions through technical language, Liz in reverting back to her Diary, and therefore her emotions, this expression of Dance allows Liz to break free for a time of her emotions for Max. She still feels incredibly strongly for him, but for a brief time, she seems to let go, to allow herself to feel.

Secondly, I feel that Courtney never had her final word to the crew. I have a sneaking suspicon that she knew something that they didnt, and that if she was not required to terminate herself to save the Pod Squad's Granolith (and Liz as Keeper) she would have revealed her secret.

Thirdly I do agree with the idea of the alternate timelines and the sacrifice of Alex in this timeline. Yet, hopefully "Roswell" will act like "X-files" and that death is inconsequential and not necessarily final. This timeline seems skewered for some reason, and it seems like something went wrong from EOTW on.

Okay, there are my thoughts, and I did HOM and am looking fowards to CYN, but know I will need tons of tissues!!

Love n Roswell,
Liz Rose

I hate to be the barer of bad news but this is what I woke up to this morning. I was watching KTLA and Sam who does the entertainment news just did a segment on Buffy and the move to UPN. He said that Angel will probably move with it. And here is the bad news, the CAST of Roswell told him over the weekend that because Fox owns Roswell, they will more then likely be cancelled. Both Shiri and Jason, more so Jason has been on KTLA and he seems to be good friends with Sam. So I think it was more then likely Jason who told him.

Evid

Oh Peej I almost forgot that!! The "you are my design" is very Tesspicious .

Did you also notice that Isabel and Alex danced to "Bizarre Love Triangle"!! That song seems out of place considering how old it is (12 yrs?). It is a great song though. Hmmmm Bizarre love triangle. I am excited if that is a hint.

Yeah, the link is messed up. I was able to see Liz's memories by using this address instead: http://www.silverhandprint.com/prom/memory/liz/01.html

peej: You are right about Tess writing DESIGN and not Destiny. When I first read it I thought it said destiny but when I looked at it for clues I then discovered it said design.

Design- To conceive and plan out in mind. To conceive and draw the plans for, deliberate planning. A MENTAL PROJECT OR SCHEME. Agressive or evil intent.
There you have it RBI's written by Tess's own hand. MINDWARP.

Evid

Evid, love the definition. That prom card is practically a confession!

Oh Excellent Brainchick!!! I'm with you all the way.

*****
I think I did it again
I made you believe we're more than just friends
Oh baby
It might seem like a crush
But it doesn't mean that I'm serious
'Cause to lose all my senses
That is just so typically me
Oh baby, baby
*****

POOR Kyle! Although... not that it really effects him I suppose... considering he seems to see Tess as a *sister*. Whatever.

"To lose all her senses"... seems to ring true especially looking at Tess' Favorite Moments prom card with "Mrs. Max Evans" scrawled everywhere. Honestly, I seriously believe the girl is delusional if she ultimately thinks she's going to *get* Max in any permanent way. Sorry to any Tess fans out there. Sure a lot of teenage girls scrawl silly stuff like this on their notebooks ... but not all of those teenage girls are enveloped in situations nearly as complicated as the one between Liz/Max/Tess.

*****
Oops!...I did it again
I played with your heart, got lost in the game
Oh baby, baby
Oops!...You think I'm in love
That I'm sent from above
I'm not that innocent
*****

I suppose we're to assume Tess is only thinking about Kyle in concerns to this song. I wonder if she could be thinking about Max a little too?

"I'm not that innocent".... huh! NO KIDDING!!

Melodious

Isabel's has a similar link: http://www.silverhandprint.com/prom/memory/isabel/01.html

About Tess's design, If you read it across the top, it says 'design a crown' [which has a double meaning: prom/planet]. But there is no one word to finish her spiral writing about Max, so is she saying he is her 'destini[y]' and her 'design' both?

Hi there, WR—still reading the fic and loving it!

Great sig quote “'All the things I want to say can find no voice, so my eyes must speak my heart”, Eraser Room!

Haniczka—I think music is very important and you make a great point about what type of music is playing when.

When watching HOM with close captioning, it is interesting to see the lyrics of the songs playing when no dialogue is taking place. Gives another angle to the episode.

Okay just read the updates on silverhandprint. Can I just say Liz is crushed and Tess is psycho?

At least Liz does say she and Sean were the best dancers, but...

I think that all of the memories are interesting.
What did you guys think of Isabel's? Any clues there?

Notice they used the LILITH symbol for the mindwarp PROM??????
How COOL is that??? Wooo-Hooooo!!!

Ick though - Tess seems really stupid (no offense to Brittney fans out there) - but her whole booklet is just soooooo cheesy. Maybe TOO cheesy. Maybe like someone trying to be a "normal" teenager. NSync??? Brittney Spears??? M.E + T.E 4 ever????

Please let her turn out to be evil - not just stupid.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Oh - and the necklace being Grandma Claudia's is huge in my book. First - it is definitely Native American (probably), and finally, we have CG tied back in to the storyline - even if it is very subtle!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!

Maybe Tess is a "special insert" into the pod squad (to bring about their doom - mwa hahahahah evil laughter)
OR - Liz could be the "special insert" - with the essence of the TRUE BRIDE hidden in her.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

That's about the size of it! Oh, and I reading Isabel's. They had dinner at Chez Pierre first, and Alex sang to her in the park later, a song he'd written for her. Plus, I think M&M got extremely close. Maria says she was up till 5, but 2-3 a.m. was the best part!! I loved how she had all this negative stuff scribbled and scratched it out--"When I kicked the paranoid gf vibe"

OK, Liz's doesn't have much info; she was obviously so upset she didn't write much. The one big clue is that her necklace is GC's. Sorry; it's nice the writers finally remembered her!

Tess' however, is full of clues. Slightly OT--she says she copied the dress out of Vogue. Anyone else thinking manipulation of molecular structure here? It seems to imply that she created her dress with her powers. Of course, there's her statement that Max is her "design." Putting her & Max's names in the hearts (the same hearts that Liz scratched out in her booklet, hmmm), and, of course, the "Oops I did it again" song. I don't think this foes refer to Kyle at all--she says that she & Max were the best-dressed couple and all, so I think this refers to Max as well. And I think it's the big clue we've been looking for that Tess really is controlling these events; she's not someone else's pawn. Sigh.

Also--Liz didn't mention what time she went home, but we know she was at the bowling alley anyway. As I mentioned, Maria went to Michael's after & didn't sleep till 5. Isabel & Alex left the prom at 1:30 and went to the park; she didn't sleep till 4 a.m. Tess says she left at 11:30 p.m. and went to "our bench," and that she didn't sleep. But nothing after that is mentioned. I'm wondering if Max either left after that or took her home and went home himself? Or did they sit there all night? Argh!

StarBox I meant to post this yesterday, but thank you for an excellent theory on how Tess can be evil without negating EOTW. I am especially grateful today, b/c I think that's the Tess we're going to be presented with. As soon as I saw the song title, "Oops I did it again," I was convinced of it.

Earlier someone was mentioning parallels between last year's final eps and this year's. In TLV Max goes to Michael and tells him he's been having strange fantasies about Tess (and later, goes to tell him he kissed her). In some upcoming ep, we have the clip of Michael saying, "You got Tess prgnant?" to Max. Apparently Max once again goes to Michael when he's gotten himself into trouble. Does anyone else hope that Michael is a little more supportive this time around?

OT: I just wanted to say, I don't think I've ever been so excited about the opportunity to my eyes out by seeing CYN tonight!

I Shall Believe
~Tas

Black was worn by both? They must be grieving. I think we will be seeing alot of black in the up coming episodes.

Evid

Oh - and the necklace being Grandma Claudia's is huge in my book. First - it is definitely Native American (probably), and finally, we have CG tied back in to the storyline - even if it is very subtle!

Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!

Zero: I'm sorry I didn't mean to knock out you wind. It's just that as soon as I turned on the news that was the first thing I herd. Sam really made it sound "official." But your right it really isn't official until TPTB tell us it is. I really think it would be best for the show if Fox picked it up, the WB has been a pain in the a$$, if you know what I mean.

Evid

Gotta go get ready for an interview. Will check in later tonight.

Liz wore one of her Grandma Claudia's necklaces eh? Well... I can only hope the Native American connection would come back into play, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

I don't know if there's a connection here... but Liz wore her Grandmother's necklace to prom. Grandma Claudia's ethereal, disembodied self told Liz to "follow her heart", no matter which road it took her. Grandma Claudia is introduced in the ep and dies by the end of the same ep. Max and Liz are NOT together (not following their hearts) when they decided to go to prom, but they went to prom anyway (maybe following their hearts just *a little* bit here - making the very small baby steps to recovery). Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart... but she (nor Max) are doing that currently. Max kisses Tess... Max and Liz are seemingly over. Hence the symbolism of Max & Liz both wearing black to the prom, unintentionally. Max's and Liz's hearts are both "dying", they're not following the right path (the path of the heart). The path that Grandma Claudia advised Liz to take, the advise Liz (or Max) isn't abiding.

Melodious

Can we claim royalties?

WR

But oh, Isabel's Prom notes were SOOOO sweet. Oh tonight's gonna hurt even more after reading that. They spent a romantic night in the park under the stars. Whimper.

Tess notes, geez, tacky. I'm sure she was thrilled to be in the arms of her love, but what's up with this "Design" stuff. Sounds oh so premeditated. And "Oops I did it again" is a song about carelessly playing with someone's heart. Tess, Tess, Tess - what are you thinking!!!

Liz's, few words, say so much.

I've got my tape primed and ready to go for tonight!!

Jeez, I can't believe I didn't notice that he's dressed identically to the wedding vision! I've only seen that like a hundred times. Tas smackes herself upside the head You are so right! It's also just the most classic look, and Max is nothing if not conservative!

OK, I was filling in for provence at Cherishing while she attended to family stuff, but what I posted is something I've been wanting to post here, so I'm just going to do that! I've paragraphed it & taken out all the pretty pictures so it's not uber-long

No one knows Max better than Liz. She is the only one who knows any details of what happened to him in the White Room, and how that changed him. She is the only one who knows that Max was so torn about not healing the father at Christmas that he was haunted by his conscience until he atoned by healing Sydney and the other children.
Future Liz sent Future Max to our Liz because they both knew that she was the one who knew all of Max's weaknesses and could use them. Liz's Romeo and Juliet speech in EOTW was carefully constructed to hit every one of Max's insecurities. And she specifically asked Kyle to help her because she knows that Max has some lingering jealousy of her past with Kyle.
It all comes down to Liz knowing Max better even than he knows himself. And in HOM, when Sean makes a disparaging remark about Max, this is how Liz responds:

quote:You have no idea who Max is, OK? Because if you knew him, you would know that he is above and beyond that way of thinking. He is an incredibly, incredibly honorable guy.

Whatever our eyes may see on the screen in the weeks to come, Liz spoke this truth for a reason: to remind us of who Max really is. It is a huge clue from TPTB that we need to keep the real Max close to our hearts, because the Max we're watching may not be the same guy. We just have to have faith in our lovable alien King and his beautiful human Queen

That's the first thing I thought when I heard Liz say that. This is the last ep I was spoiled for, and when she said that, and I knew what was coming, I thought, why? Why would TPTB have Liz say something like that? Well, that's what I think is why. We've all been saying that we trust Liz's character judgement--THIS is her judgement of Max. We need to remember that while he's being SM

I Shall Believe
~Tas

Tasyfa - ITA!

Mel - I have to disagree with you about Liz following her heart. I actually think she is following her heart right now, and that it is telling her she has to "let go" for her soul to regain balance and for her to be able to see clearly again. I do think that her heart will eventually lead her back to Max, but I feel for now her heart is leading her in a direction she needs to go - part of the hero journey I believe she is on. BUT I do believe Max is NOT following his heart - that (I believe) is the turmoil we see in his face at the end of Heart of Mine. I believe he is totally and completely confused, and that confusion is being added to by whomever or whatever is causing Stepford Max to take over. Hope that all makes sense? I do believe that Max's heart's desire will win out somehow in the end, and that their hearts will lead them back together.

Got to go -
Zero
I Shall (Continue to and Always) Believe!

Starbox I really like what you said about the timelines. Had not thought about the fact FMax did not come fix the mess before when he could have saved Liz the pain. Hey atleast she HAD a prom . Its truly heart wreching to watch but I know Jason Katims will probably manage to work out something soulworthy out of it all.

Melodious I hope everything you said is right. I do not like Tess very much either ::thumbs down::. Talk about mega let down .

I supposed it was necessary for Max to explore every option he could have to be happy. He is the one who should be happy anyways.

Can't wait to read more on all your thoughts

Maria’s was by far the funniest. Just read Isabel’s (wasn’t available before). It was sweet. Liz’s was obviously sad.

I wonder if they did read WR’s fanfic! That’s the first thing I thought of except WR’s necklace was described as more beautiful than the one she has on! Royalties! Royalties! Sue them all!

hanicka—I knew I saw similarities in how Max was dressed for prom and something else. Thanks for pointing out it was the wedding picture.

Before I commit myself to a headlong catch up, I just want to deposit more on HOM.
Think of Jello. It isn't quite solid, but not quite like liquid like Tess describes the water on Antar as being. It has buoyancy and it isn't a stable substance. Could that be a metaphor for Tess and Max's relationship? You take something solid and something liquid and you mesh it together. But it doesn't have a lasting consistency. When Future Max chose an adjective for Liz and Max's relationship, he chose cemented. As in concrete and wholly stable. You can even use the word united because concrete is able to combine many differnt forms of things together -- united. Like cement, alien and human can come together into something solid.

Thanks Meta, Shapeshifter and Zero for responding about the LEAST DEEP thing--does it mean something I guess we will have to wait and see.
Zero--I don't know if you misunderstood the picture I was talking about in the bowling alley--I am talking about the back wall behind where all the pins are? Does it look to anyone else like TALL BUILDINGS--SKYSCRAPERS--a CITY? Like maybe New York?

Wow, I just thought of something. Regarding the Mind Rape technique. When Tess and Max were at the prom - describing the kiss... I just realized that it is EXACTLY the same description as Max and Liz's first kiss.

We were at a party...I touched your cheek...then I leaned in....

Hmmmmmm..... There might really be something to this theory.

{~}:}

p.s. Sorry if this was mentioned before..

Alexis: Jello vs. Cement...I like it.

melodious
quote:"I'm not that innocent"...huh! NO KIDDING!

can't stop LMAO!

I do't want the WB to cancel our show! You know, they say that 7th Heaven is their biggest show or whatever, but did it occur to them that maybe some of us just watch it in anticipation of Roswell? I know I do, and I'm not dissing 7th Heaven, but I get so nervous and anxious waiting for Roswell that I spend the hour preceding it on that channel. Maybe we should write to FOX and suggest to them to pick up Roswell in case the WB get rid of it?

Roxy

Space Trap
Wave of the Future
Misbegotten Dream

-HH

Just popping on after being away from the PC since Friday - 1 hour and 12 minutes to go to "blast off" and I have my tissues ready! I'm out of the office tomorrow, too, so keep those insightful thoughts to a miniumum, k!?

I just hope I don't have to cry myself to sleep tonight!!

Anyway, re the necklace: After reading everyone's posts, Liz probably wore it because going to Prom with Max was following her heart (even if it did get stomped on). So, then, given the the writers have given us a Liz whose instincts are (unlike most mortals) right 100% of the time, I am thinking that she is thinking that this whole FM plan is wrong.

Nemo--yes LANE32--Kyles Football jersey no 32 hmmm???? how about this 3 Pdstrs and 2nd 2 Liz and Kyle (the changed ones???) Thanks for the heads up on the Cityscape--maybe nothing but thought it was noteworthy.

Melodious--interesting choice of song "You think I'm in Love, was sent from above, but I'm not that innocent" Now is this for Max??? or Kyle????? or both???

Alexis-thanks for the article-yes Shiri is number 1 imho. The last time I felt anything about an episode b4 Heart of Mine was well somewhat We Are Family(another Liz centric eppy) and EOTW(another Liz centric eppy) thats why to me Liz is the Heart of Roswell.

I was so hoping that was Grandma Claudia's necklace LOL---I thought it looked Native American--Vikhmass--thanks for posting that information about the necklace---too bad Liz didn't have one for Max too, I think the boy is vulnerable and could use one himself.

Huggybehr--yes exactly what I was thinking very familiar that kiss memory would be huh?????

Sorry can't remember who posted it-sorry but I liked the differences between CEMENT and JELLO LOL!!!!! Was this Alexis?
Everyone really has great posts have read them all but I can't keep them all straight but everyone is really cooking with the clues.

I'm glad the necklace has turned out to be GC's! Go LIZ!

I've been thinking about Sean's VW today - first off, my first car was a 1960 Bug, (Much cuter and older than Sean's) beautiful, Marian Blue and full of good karma - read the pun. Anyway, I have a hard time distrusting ANYONE in a beetle, even though Ted Bundy drove one...

ANYWAY, Sean's driver door has several holes in it - more than five, but shaped in a V... There's masking tape covering three or four of the holes. Has anyone noticed this? We get two long and significant, absolutely intentional shots of the door, 1 when Sean and Liz are kissing, 2 when he drives up as she's missing the bus to school. I just wonder if you numerologists can make anything out of the formation and the number of holes. I thought it could be the V before it comes into full alignment... He's also missing the exerior mirror on the driver's side.

Don't forget Maria and the Jetta, her dad... No kidding, VWs may symbolize protection.

Y'all be strong for the episode tonight. It doesn't air here until 4:30 am, so I won't be back to check in until tomorrow afternoon.

I hate that we're in such a state of uncertainty right now, especially near season's end and with all the questions about next season. The only certain thing is that Tess has turned out to be as untrustworthy as we suspected.

In the midst of all the misdirection and uncertainty, just remember that the story is bigger than the season or the series!

Zara

::is praying that the stupid writers figured out we hate Tess and this whole sketchy situation and changed it for the better.

I have so many thoughts swirling in my head, but I'm dying to know what you guys think.

First, Liz! WOW! I think the pivotal moment was the "cough" - outside of Max's house - she leaned over, and coughed and then went to Max. "I don't want to be alone", when the entire time she had been on her own and I just can't imagine MAX (although, the Dreamer in me would love it to be so, I have to remember HOM) would be the first one she'd go to right now. She's trying to be strong - she's got that determination, she goes to Max?

Second, Liz and the "alien theory". She' dead on! I can't quite figure out what happened or why, but I think she really hit something when she touched on Vilondra and Khivar. Murder? It HAS to be - or some sort of "inside possession". Too many "odd behavior patterns" from Mr. Whitman before he died, but what does it all mean!?!?

Third, that promo for next week!? T and Max!?! Enough said on that, but I think I might have to skip next week's eppy if I REALLY have to sit through Max and T making lo...

Lastly (sort of), what about Alex's "signature"? The 1's and 0's - Liz knew what it meant - the quote from Robert Frost's poem, "I have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep". WHAT does that mean? And how did Liz know?
Input! I'm dying over here!!!

I thought it was strange that Max gave Liz a corsage with red and white flowers. Remember on TEOTW, FMax told Liz that PMax changed the red roses to white because he remembered she prefered white roses. The Max we know would have given Liz a white rose corsage. What I'm getting at is what if Max is beginning to forget all his memories of Liz? If Tess is mind raping Max does this mean that she is replacing herself with not only images but Max's memories of Liz. As mentioned before how similar Max's first kiss was with both girls. Take out Liz insert Tess.
It also seems from Tess's prom card that she and Max met at the punchbowl before prom. Max seemed fine at the Crashdown with Liz but once he was at the prom he was SMax. Just what did Tess do to him at the punchbowl?
I also noticed that Tess was waring a corsage with white roses. I wonder if she told Kyle these were her favorite flowers. I think Tess is slowly transforming herself to become Liz. But we all know she could never copy Liz's heart, for this reason alone, her plan already has a major flaw in it and will end up back firing on her sooner or later.

Evid

Here are some things I noticed:
Amy DeLuca has a tourquoise ring in the shape of I think a turtle. Turtles are important in native American mythology for being the foundation of earth.

There was fully bloomed Tulips in the Evans house

Red roses at Alex's funeral

Liz's hair is straight again. tess's hair goes between straight and curly

Concert tickets are for May 5th. 5-5! Kyle's birthday has to be a few days before that. The funeral isn't usually held the DAY AFTER someone dies but who knows on TV!

The Robert Frost poem -OK English majors I know you're out there! I was one recently and I LOVE that poem and I know in that case sleep means death. "I have miles to go before I sleep" SO does that mean Alex wasn't really killed? I totally believe Liz's alien theory. After all, it is always Liz who saves the day! AND if they use the khivar theory I think they should say additional consulting by the FanForum folks.

I think that's all I noticed. My VCR decided to hate me and not let the WB come in at ALL!! So I can only go on memory.

I'm off to bed now. Myth away and I can't wait to see what everyone comes up with in the morning.

Pooh

As you know, I had the priviledge of watching the cast and crew during the shooting of four scenes for this episode. This was the funeral scenes, the wrecking yard, and the crash scene (night).

I have told my spoiled friends that the funeral scene was going to make you cry, and boy, did it ever.

I feel really, really lucky that I got to be present and made promises at the time not to talk about it. Promises that become harder and harder to keep as time goes on. (And I've been PM by so many people it blows my mind.) Pretty much everything I saw shot I knew about already before I went to LA due to some loose lip posters. I think they were worried about Alex's death coming out, but when I told the crew that I already knew it, they were pretty shocked. They asked me all sort of questions about how I knew. Imagine their surprise when I told them you could buy scripts on Ebay of Viva Las Vegas two weeks before it aired. So the people that spoke with me really conveyed a need to keep the story line in their control until the WB airs it. I am pretty certain that they would not care anymore, but I'm still going to be very careful about what I say.

I have one compliment for the crew. I didn't bug any of the cast from their jobs, and believe me they were busy. The extra manager insisted that all the extras eat and relax at base camp before 1/2 of them left. He was quite insistantly that they were all taken care of and treated well. It was one of the best days for me.

I know right now some of y'all are just going to think I'm paranoid... but this particular scene... when Liz leans over like she's going to be sick. I just thought it was strange. Not necessarily because of the situation (stress and just getting that blow from Valenti that he was going to declare Alex's death a suicide, I wouldn't blame her for wanting to throw-up)... HOWEVER... I just got a *weird* feeling from it. Call it intuition, I don't know.

Here comes the paranoia... I just thought that scene was strange because of WHERE Liz was, the rather ominous music that was playing and then Liz looks up and around. Almost like she was *looking for* someone to be there. She almost looked scared imo. DID she sense someone or something there? IF Liz was scared, this could be why she goes to Max (besides looking for comfort.... although WHY would she go to Max indeed if it was *comfort* she was seeking? Or simply "not wanting to be alone").... she goes to Max... because in a deep-seeded level in Liz, if she WAS ever in trouble OR scared, she knew she could go to him for anything. He would protect her, no matter what? Liz was scared - for whatever reason - so she goes to (superpowered) Max "not to be alone"?

I mentioned I thought Liz getting sick was also strange because of WHERE she is when it hits her. Just a few steps away from the Valenti house. Now WHO exactly lives in the Valenti house that *might* have the capability of making someone sick... or at least make them believe they were? The dark music, as I said, also added to the creepy vibe of the scene imo. IF Tess WAS making Liz sick however... why? To simply torment her? WHY would she do something so cruel?? One of Liz's closest friends JUST died. Talk about kicking a person while they're down. So I suppose this theory could be shot down simply for that reason -- Tess just wouldn't be that cruel. Right? That scene still bothers me though. Ugh... I'm watching it now for the third time... it definitely bothers me.

Melodious

So here goes....

The moment you've all been waiting for (Well, not really, we won't be getting a reunion for a little bit) but the second thing most in the world that you wanted to see...My Theory on Tess Harding

It's long and drawn out and I'm posting the most watered down version that I can (the original is a 7 page word document!) without making it make no sense, so please behr with me!!!!

My Theory on Tess
My theory is relatively simple but in a way will prove that Tess is somehow using her powers to manipulate Max and the audience into thinking that everything is happening they way we are seeing it. Just to prove my point, I rewatched the episodes from Season 1 that brought Tess into the lives of those in Roswell.

In the Episode "Crazy":
Max and Michael are extremely suspicious when she appears in the kitchen during their “How to treat a girl” talk. They both actually scold Isabel and remind her not to let on ANYTHING! (One of the few times I’ve seen Max and Michael agree). ). They are very uncomfortable with the thought of a new girl. Some suspect automatically that she may be an implant as Ms. Topolsky was for the FBI. They do not like that Isabel made such a quick friend and frankly neither did I.

Episode, Tess, Lies, and Videotape:
This being the second time that Max met Tess, all of a sudden he can’t take his eyes off her, he is drawn to her, and Liz actually sees this and you can see on her face how uncomfortable she is with it. (Very un-Max like, is this starting to sound familiar?). In the midst of kissing Liz in the back room, he tarts to have a vision that he is kissing Tess rather than Liz. Liz breaks the “spell” by calling his name and then kissing him one more time before going back to work. Max looks out the back room door and sees Tess and she looks over as if looking to see if Max is having any sort of reaction.

The next deception we see is in the Biology lab. Max is asked to be Tess’ partner to get her caught up in the class. As he walks forward, you see no break in the scene and no kind of strange face from Max, he just walks straight up there and stares at her for a moment and then sweeps her up in his arms for their hot make-out moment. We only see the scene break when Tess herself brings him out of the “Warp” or what he thinks is a fantasy. Up until she broke the Mind Warp, we are led to believe that this is really happening, there is nothing in the scene that gives us any clue that it isn’t real.

We even see the reactions of the students (i.e. Alex, Maria and Liz). That’s quite the Mind Warp. Notice, however, we do not find out that these were actually mind warps until Tess reveals that to Isabel 2 episodes later in The White Room. All of the Mind Warps appeared to us to be in Real Time and were deceiving to both Max and us.

I have one question in regards to that: Why wouldn’t Nasedo and Tess just reveal themselves to the Podsquad. I mean, Nasedo knew they were looking for him, so it wouldn’t have been a great shock to any of them that they were there.

Now I answer that question: Tess is deceiving and manipulative, that is her gift. That is her power, to deceive and manipulate, she was/is doing what just comes naturally to her. She knows she can use this to get what she wants or to make things go the way she thinks they should go. Can you imagine if our characters hadn’t figured her out and she continued to manipulate Max, everything would have been destroyed, friendships, love and trust.

Now this is already way to long and there are some things that happen in Foursquare, Max to the Max, and Destiny that continue to support the theory that I'm about to discuss.

So this is my theory, after all of that. Tess has gained the trust of the group. That’s right, I think that she learned to use their human emotions against them. Every time Max is distraught or upset about something (usually having something to do with Liz) she is there. She shows up to be the comforting hand or the shoulder to cry on. She has figured out that you can attract more bees with sugar than with salt. If she gained the trust of the group, then why would they ever suspect her when things got weird again.

Another important part of my theory is that, The End of The World really had nothing to do with Max and Liz and whether they were together or not. It had everything to do with Tess. It was her leaving that caused the problems, it was her non-acceptance of the situation that eventually led to her leaving. It had nothing to do with whether Max and Liz were together. Yes, they were mistreating her and I understand she still has human emotion, but all the more reason for her emotions to lead her to eventual betrayal to get what she wants. Why didn’t future Max go to Tess in the first place? He said it himself that he STILL didn’t trust her.

Tess is using her powers to get what she wants. Plain and simple. It’s all in black and white. How it will be played out is yet to be seen but there IS a pattern of behavior here, and there are many clues that I haven’t even included because this already way to long. But Tess will do anything to get what she wants and has seen an open opportunity through Max’ disappointment to get it. He is open and vulnerable, as he has been most of the season and she is now ready to use that and his new found trust in her to her advantage. It’s up to our Podsters and Humans to figure it out.

I know its long and if you've scrolled past it I don't blame you, but if you want hope in the future, you may want to read it!!!! I'm telling you, it's all a MIND WARP!!!! Thank you for listening/reading!

Leah aka Ice

That said, Cry Your Name was ridiculous (ridiculously amazing and sad, that is). I have A TON of thoughts about this episode, but I have this one thing I wanted to get out there quickly. And although this isn't directly about Liz, this is my 'home' for theories, so I'm putting it here. Bear with me!

About Max not being able to save Alex:

I know I always come back to the 'Balance' as being extremely important, and I think it comes into play here YET AGAIN.

Remember in Leaving Normal when Max couldn't save Liz's grandmother? In that instance I always felt that Grandma Claudia had already 'exited the building' so to speak. Max made a connection, but was unable to heal her because her energy, her soul or whatever it is had already left her body.

Max wasn't able to save Nasedo...because he was already dead. No energy for the Balance to connect with - to work off of.

Now, we know what Riverdog said about the Balance...that it can draw you in, change your physical and mental state if you don't navigate it right (Not a direct quote, but you know what I mean)...

Now, I believe that Max's ability to heal comes from his manipulation of this Balance. However, I personally think that the Balance needs human energy (Riverdog also said that Nasedo told him that his energy - human energy - would be required to activate the stones) or another kind of energy to work. Max is unable to heal Alex because he is already dead -- No energy...

Does anyone see what I'm saying? I'm typing this rather quickly because I had a brain fart and I needed to put it down in words...but because it's rushed it might sound confusing.

Oh yeah, and I can tie this all back into Liz. The 'Balance' or the source of the alien's powers needs the human energy to work. Couldn't this be true of Max and the Granolith? Human energy is needed to make them work? To make them powerful enough to do whatever it is that they have to do? Hi Liz!!

Or something to that effect. Yeah, I know it needs work... would love to hear your thoughts!!

Oh yeah, and after reading all the posts on this thread regarding all your thoughts on Tess, and especially the post (was it Starbox who wrote about EOTW) I'm starting to relent a little. I agree that it's entirely possible that she is evil and has been since day one -- but I'm going on record (again) as saying that I am personally disappointed if this is the direction they take. However, that EOTW post really changed my thinking 150%.

OK, will be back later after I've cried my way through Cry Your Name a few more times.

Sigh....

{~}:}

When Valenti was in the car as he arrived at the crash the sound sounded like When the humans disappeared in Wipe Out.

And Valenti and Hansen blocked the Ambulance it said bulance 8... or Balance 8

justsmile

- How funny was Alex when he bit his knuckle after Isabel suggested he come out and play with her??
- Liz’s reaction to Alex’s death was almost immediate fury - not grief. Her face was just a picture of horror and anger
- The first shot of the group (after the first commercial break) was of "the group" minus Alex and Amy. It was very reminiscent of the statement Liz made in HOM about feeling like it was the last time they would all be together (side note - wonder if any significance that Amy wasn’t in that shot)
- Not to bash Tess, but why was she more weepy than anyone else initially? I didn't get the impression that she was all that close to Alex.
- When Isabel walked after Max didn’t heal Alex, Tess actually gave Max her first "order" - "Go after her, Max". He hesitated until Liz said something like, "Yeah, go after her."
- Some dates - Alex’s death May 3; Kyle’s birthday May 4; Alex’s funeral (day of Beth Orton concert) May 5
- When Liz was inspecting Alex’s car, I got a strange feeling that she would all of a sudden manifest some power (I know that sounds crazy - it just felt like she would all of a sudden, but without realizing, use a power)
- Was Max’s inability to heal Alex because Alex’s death was the result of an alien (that would mean that an alien was in the car with him) or because, as with GC, it was his time to go?
- Any significance with red tulips (as seen in the Evans kitchen)?
- Even though it was sort of short lived, it was encouraging to see Liz turn to Max in a time of need.
- If Max were adept at reading body language, he would know that Liz was NOT ok with seeing "the kiss"
- I loved that Amy could still be Amy in light of the situation - by saying "welcome on the couch" to Michael
- Most Poignant Scene - when Isabel told Alex that she loves him and he turned to say, "I think we both know, I loved you"
- The number on the credit card receipt was 11100100100111011001 - can anyone read binary or code or whatever??

Hope some of the above helps someone with a new theory! I have to go to bed now

justsmile

What about the credit card receipt? Why would Alex sign the receipt like that? I mean, I realize to leave some sort of clue, but why on the receipt?

Also, that picture of him and the girl from Sweden is creeping me out. I guess I can't figure out why he still had it out, and why he chose to study it.

That's all for now. I'll have to rewatch it again to see if anything else jumps out at me.

The BEST thing was that there is a glowy alien (large - about 2 ft tall) next to the Crashdown front door - carrying a HUMAN INFANT.
At first I thought it may be foreshadowing the awful pregnancy storytline - then I started thinking - we saw the glowies in So47 with the leaky pod - and now here is one - carrying a HUMAN INFANT - at the front door of the Crashdown! AND - the glowy alien with the baby is really prominent in the last scene - the one with Liz figuring out clues by herself in the CD. Did the glowies bring Claudia or one of the Parkers the baby from the pod???
Woooooo-Hooooooooo. Liz is the true bride, Liz is the true bride

This eppy was CHOCK FULL of visual clues and Liz importance clues.
Some examples:
Micheal and Max debating The Matrix vs. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon

Crouching Tiger is about a couple who are deeply in love but feel they can not express their love because the woman was engaged to the man's brother (who was killed in battle).
Almost too late they finally reveal their true feelings........
In the Matrix - Trinity knows Neo is the "choosen one" because there is a prophecy that the one she falls in love with will be the choosen one.

We see the Flying Dutchman picture again (during the Matrix vs. Crouching Tiger discussion).

Also - Alex's comment about the food always being cold - remember in Wipeout???? Nicolas had eaten from Alex's plate and when Alex returned his food was cold. Noone else seemed to notice - they were all eating happily. WHAT HAPPENED TO ALEX in Wipeout????
Nicolas/the dupes AND Tess are involved - I am sure of it. Leanna = Lonnie
Also - the description by the trucker - sounded an AWFUL lot like what happened when Zan was killed. Another mark of Lonnie???

Convenient for Sean to be "out of town" when the "accident" occured. I know Liz likes him - but the jury is still out for me.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Unfortunately I've already read a lot of spoilers and it's just killing me to read some of the posts.

Anyway, Liz and the poem. She said she has"miles to go".

Is this only a metaphor or will there literally be another field trip involved? Or could this mean that she could be leaving Earth? Khivar was mentioned in Liz's scene where she was yelling at Max. Does that mean since she's the only one who seems to have any sense around here, she may stay with the Pod Squad to figure out what's going on?

Also, about Tess, I'm finding it extremely hard to maintain my Tess-friendly feelings.I really think we may have something here.

Also, she did show us another power of hers. The explosion in Wipe Out, where she's suddenly really P.O.ed and incinerates all the skins. Notice how Nikolas didn't die. (I bet this has been mentioed, so sorry). Also, in Meet the Dupes TEss was sitting in the room alone untouched, and Lonnie and Rath were gone. Hello???

Although there was that one Courtney scene where she mentioned that Tess wasn't in danger or whatever.

I may be leading myself in circles, and it wasn't very insightful. I know the first season much better than the second. I need to rewatch some eppys.

TTFN

Liz did puke, a little, after Valenti told her about the possibility of suicide. Do we need a screencap of that? (hope not)

Liz is back! (Reggie does happy dance!) Check out the hair- it's normal again! You thought Tess was Trouble... look out for our Liz! Grrr!

The car thing. Duh! IF Alex had rammed a truck, wouldn't the front of his car be mashed back, not down? Even if it flipped over afterwards? This may be a chad, or a clue. Hmmmm.....

This episode had perhaps the most romantic moment I've seen this season. Max sees (hears, LOL) that Liz hasn't eaten. After all the crap between them, his first reaction is to feed her. And what does he feed her?

Macaroni and cheese. Think about it. Macaroni is made from wheat, like bread. Cheese is made with fungi, like wine is. Macaroni & cheese... bread and wine. The resurrected King gives Liz bread and wine, sort of. AM I RINGING ANY BELLS HERE?

Great episode. TEOTW calibre. See why I said to tape it?

And I just loved that cliffhanger. Perfectly done. So a number of you say that the number on the credit card receipt is binary code. Very appropriate of Alex if that's the case. I only saw the numbers briefly, but at the time I thought it was repeats of 010010010 and it made me think of Morse code and SOS. I will definitely be rewindind and watching this one again tomorrow. I can't remember the last time I watched an ep again, probably months ago with EotW. It's about time and I'm so intruiged. I'm ready to go look for more clues. Sleep is calling me though. Ta-ta.

Crouching tiger hidden dragon- love, honor, duty
Matrix- allusion, reality, gunfire.

I cant quite put my finger on it but its something.

melodious I got the same feeling of Liz when she got sick. It's not that it doesn't seem plausible under the circumstances, but it just seemed so abrupt. there's something else I cant' put my finger on, I gotta go back and rewatch it.

I also wondered about the numbers on the receipt. And what she said made me wonder what she meant. My friend and I had an argument over it she thinks she was speaking the poem from Alex's point of view, I thought it was said on her own behalf. So, what are the theories on the numbers?! Someone, please, they're not spoilers if no one knows for sure and are just throwing out theories.

justsmile youj said "spoiler"! Break my resolve why don't ya? I'm fighting so hard to stay away!

Here's my bit on Liz in this episode. I got the impression that Liz knew from the get-go that something was up with Alex's death. It's not that she was in denial about it, but something about the way it happened was off to her. Her reaction when they all found out was one of shock, but to me it seemed off, I dunno why. And it was after she relays her suspicions about a possible murder that I went back and thought about her reaction to Max when she said "go to her" about Iz. At first I thought that the reason she pushes him away was because she didnt' want any comfort. But looking back on it, I thought that it seemed more like she needed time to process her onsetting suspicions and think. I dunno, that was my thought on it from only one time seeing the eppy. I'm gonna go back later and look again.

Roxy

BTW, I thought this episode ROCKED!!! And Shiri is destined for Oscar success!!

Exactly my reaction. She smelled a rat, from the beginning. Also, please notice Isabel's Mom's reaction: she says she wishes she had special powers, and Isabel says they wouldn't help. Hello! How would she know? Look at her Mom's double take.

Isabel said that b/c Maz's special powers weren't enough to bring Alex back to life.

I have many thoughts on this ep, but I am too wrung out to post anything coherent tonight. I will say, Go Liz!

I Shall Believe
~Tas

11100100100111011001

In binary code:
-part of it can be a K
-part of it can be Jan. 1st, 2004

but the whole binary code turns up nothing--111 is not part of any code or something

See I see something else
-no binary code

11100100100111011001
could it be a symbol-look at the 0's they make up 4 pairs and 1 zero by itself...if you follow Liz Myth then this could be the 2 sets of R4 and the KEY (Liz)

I don't know why Alex would write anything about that though.

Unless he's not Alex...

But who would control Alex to tell Liz something and then Kill Alex?

I think Kivar would not be stupid enough to leave a clue like that for Liz.

Alex came back changed remember...what if it hasn't been Alex since Sweeden.

I figured it out b/c in the eppy if ya pause that signature...you see clearly that the 0's that are next to each other are connected...this had to have been done consiously.

Anyone care to expand?

Lots of Love,
SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

NO SPOILERS!

Starbox: I think you are on to something in regards to the "cold" food!! I feel like Alex is being used just like Brody is/was. Where is Brody, by the way?? To me, Brody's personality seemed to fluctuate from a "strange" guy to a caring father. Alex was noted as being "calm, sullen" and then at times, he was "cocky, arrogant". Alex's speech to the delivery boy revealed to us that he was depressed. Did he realize that his body was being used as a "vessel"??

You all have posted so many great insights, but I'm too tired.

One thing that I wanted to mention though (being this is the Liz's importance thread), I found that when Max mentioned the word PROM, she immediately turned cold. They were talking, laughing about old times, and then that one word seemed to TRIGGER her anger. Now, in a way, a person can sum it up as being an emotional, sore spot for her, but I wonder if there was more to it??

LIZ ROCKS!! she did an amazing job displaying the emotions, the tears, the laughter, the memories, the smiles, the breakdown.

i bow to shiri on this amazing performance.

poor guy.

She Crys Your Name--so sad-poor Alex, poor everyone---GO LIZ--Liz is on a mission--I must watch more for clues b4 posting though about this ep.

Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening
by Robert Frost

Whose woods these are I think I know
His house is in the village, thought:
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it's queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

Many think that this poem is from the view point of an older man looking back on his life. I have always seen it from the view point of a younger one looking forward.

The narrator is coming home from town. He lives far out and it's winter, a time when many don't see the beauty that surrounds them, they only feel the cold and see the inconvience that it causes. But the narrator sees the beauty in the snow against the darkness and the slow haphazard way that it fills the woods.

He's concious of the fact that if any one saw him, they would think him strange and probably order him home. Telling him that he's losing himself in fantasy when he has so much else to do. So he places those words and comments onto his horse. It is his carrier in reality and inbetween reality. It's is clock, persay.

The last stanza is by far my favorite. He sees the beauty in the dark, in the silence and wishes to become a part of it. Wanting to just simply be a part of the beauty and the silence, but he can't. So he makes the decision to keep his promises, to keep doing all that he needs to be doing. Because so many are relying on him. He is the strength, the glue that keeps it all together. And that is at times difficult and depressing. But he realizes that it is life and accepts it.

I can see a lot of Alex and Liz in this poem. They both have put other's, most importantly the aliens, needs in front of their own. They have made promises to keep their secret and to also help keep them safe. And the task is long and daunting. They have 'miles to go before (they) sleep.' Where are they going to go? We'll find out soon.

I see I'm not alone, everyone really enjoyed tonights episode. I'm with you redhawk I'm going to rewatch this one a few dozen times. CYN seems to be right out of season one. Shiri was truly amazing. She had me laughing, crying and angry all in a few minutes. How could they hold her back for so long. GO SHIRI!!!!! Really the whole cast did a wonderful job. But I think the humens out shown everyone. Alex, Maria and Kyle were true to their character on this one. Maria singing Amazing Grace had me whailing as did Liz in her memories of Alex, again Shiri had me stunned with her performance. Kyle and his Dad had me hanging on their every word, and Kyle backing up Liz, yesssss I just fell in love with him all over again. I herd myself say, now why was it Liz broke up with him? Oh right for Max, and that's sad because I'm a Dreamer.
I had to post this clue before I get some sleep. When Iz and Alex are in the Crashdown and he says goodbye to her (the camera is spinning at the time) if you look at the mural you will see that it has changed. The Aliens now have a gun and it's shooting out green rays. The old mural had the Aliens showing a peace sign. I think this means it's no longer peace time in Roswell.

Evid

... I just thought that scene was strange because of WHERE Liz was, the rather ominous music that was playing and then Liz looks up and around. Almost like she was *looking for* someone to be there. She almost looked scared imo. DID she sense someone or something there? IF Liz was scared, this could be why she goes to Max ...I got the same vibe too, but didn't think Tess

quote:Originally posted by aldebaran:
...- If Max were adept at reading body language, he would know that Liz was NOT ok with seeing "the kiss"...My take too, aldebaran. Shiri did some great acting.
quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
...Crouching Tiger is about a couple who are deeply in love but feel they can not express their love because the woman was engaged to the man's brother (who was killed in battle).
Almost too late they finally reveal their true feelings........
In the Matrix - Trinity knows Neo is the "choosen one" because there is a prophecy that the one she falls in love with will be the choosen one....Thanks for that Starbox, I'm going to have to sleep on it though. quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
...
Also - Alex's comment about the food always being cold - remember in Wipeout???? Nicolas had eaten from Alex's plate and when Alex returned his food was cold. Noone else seemed to notice - they were all eating happily. WHAT HAPPENED TO ALEX in Wipeout???? ...OOOOooo! Starbox! I soo don't believe Alex is dead. Now you have given me an idea ! Alex is "gone" like in WO. Yea, I know, the body and all that. But maybe this is more like with FM changing things. Maybe Alex went in another dimension so he could survive the accident/murder.

Also, re the murder: recall in MITC when Rath killed Zan by controlling the truck.

Reggie & Sunrise, I saw Liz's negative vibe differently: I thought it meant that he should be comforting her (Liz), and maybe a little annoyance that Tess was telling Max what to do.

Charmed , Back to the Frost Poem: How bout if the delivery boy is a Temp???

First – I thought this was an excellent episode! Congrats to Mr. Ron Moore for such an emotional, though interesting episode.

I’m tired, and emotionally wrung, but I wanted to post my initial reactions! First – YOU GO GIRL!! ! As I said earlier when discussing Tess and Sean, I trust Liz’s gut reactions – call it following your heart or your special intuitions, but I too felt Liz “knew” something was wrong with Alex’s death from the beginning! Her “cold” reaction was her analytical way of processing everything. (She reminded me of a young Dana Scully here!) Shiri did a wonderful job of conveying a range of emotions and reactions to a stressful period. First – I cannot believe that she could be sitting there in the Crashdown with Max and Tess there without ing! (God – this is going to be soooooooooo painful to watch Max and Tess together !!) Then her whole reaction to Max’s inability to heal Alex. I would have been shocked if he could have healed Alex – good analysis of that whomever – Sorry, I’m tired ! Liz is in a state of disgust and shock all piled on top of each other – first Max kissing Tess, now Alex’s death! I also felt that Liz was “feeling” something when she went to the junk yard. I do believe that her powerful intuition is tied to her powers somehow – I’m not sure, but I believe it is. And though I do not believe her to be an alien, I do believe she was Highly evolved before the healing, and that the healing may have released the powers she has. (Hope that makes sense.)

I too believe Liz threw-up when she left Valenti’s! I’ve lost it like that when I’ve been suppressing emotions, and then something extreme triggers that primal reaction. I think she needed to talk to someone, and the only one she could “talk” to was Max. I loved that Max called Liz, only to find out that Sean had beaten him to the punch! I little tooooo Late Maxy-boy! I must admit I had a very NEGATIVE reaction to Max tonight – even when he wasn’t seeming to be Stepford Max. I can’t really explain it, and maybe after I have re-watched the episode, I can put my figure on it – but the Tess hanging on him in front of everyone, his failure to TRULY grasp what Liz is going through and comfort her, and his failure to confront what is going on with Tess, just makes me want to YELL at him “you Jerk!!” Okay – I agree with Reggie about Max offering Liz comfort food – but how insensitive to bring up the PROM! “You Jerk!” Come on – didn’t he kind of wonder what happened to Liz while he was making out with Tess on the couch? Call to apologize? Subscribing to the philosophy – If you ignore it, it didn’t happen??? HELLO!!! Earth to Max! Earth to Max! Liz was correct to shut down when he brought the Prom up – it is a sore spot – still very raw (blistering, and oozing crud!) – and though she says they have move on – I hope she gets to slug Tess in the kisser just once!! Okay – I’m regressing! Sorry …

I loved Liz’s chat with Alex’s dad, and how she asked Alex to help her – then found the tickets in the book marking the poem! I would love for someone to post the entire passage because I believe the entire passage is meaningful! Something about the “woods are lovely, dark and deep, but I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep, miles to go before I sleep.” Robert Frost. I think this is something to do with her Journey! I believe this passage was deliberately chosen!! Plus, the date is 5/5/2001! Plus, the way Tess just discounts Liz’s concert ticket proof! I trust Liz – and I’m SOOO disappointed that Mikey G walked out on them – I understand the others, but Mikey G! Plus – Here is to Kyle – who also may be changed and feels that something is not right about Alex’s death! I guess the won’t be “standing together” anymore – if it is “us against them!”

Lyrics!
“Falling from the westernslopes to find yourself alone again wondering where you have been. Your lonely voice voice calls across the starlit cove reaching out to be seen. She cries your names. 3 times again. She cries your names. How long can this love remain (CC - and all the deadly stuff remains). She cries your name. 3 time again. She cries your time. How long can this love remain? (CC- and all the deadly stuff remains)!” There is one of our numbers again – 3! Plus, this song conveys so much to me – especially considering what the CC says – there is no way they could have misheard what was being said!

Okay – Liz is on a mission! She hasn’t slept much since Alex’s death, and “she has miles to go before she sleeps!” Talk about the belly of the beast – think Hero’s Journey! We are in it full throttle ahead!

Previews – well I’m already disgusted with Tess, and the Prom writings at the silverhandprint just went to her immaturity, but “I’m here for you for all eternity.” PLEASE!! I can’t stand it! Deliver me now!! I hope they rot in H@#* for all eternity if Max doesn’t turn out to be completely out of his senses, because – if he isn’t – they deserve each other!

Okay – I’m tired, and ranting – and I like to keep things on a positive note! SO – excellent episode, and YOU GO LIZ!! WE TRUST YOUR SENSES!

Night all !
Zero
I Shall (Try to continue to) Believe!

Hi GraceKel, credit where credit is due, the theory on the kiss similarity is Meta's not mine, but I totally agree with it.

I've been thinking about what Tess is doing and I don't think it's just mind warping. I agree that she is changing Max's memories and trying to substitute herself where Liz was. I can see this developing to the point where Max starts treating Liz the way he treated season 1 Tess.

Re. the balance I also agree, but I think Max's problem is that his human and alien sides are not in balance. He has connected with his alien 'memories' and is losing himself. Remember in 4 Square, Max was really concerned about the appearance of Nasedo causing them to lose their humanity. The podsters must have been recreated into human beings for a reason, and I think we'll discover that they have to have their human and alien sides in balance to survive. Obviously, Liz will be crucial to this, because it's knowing her that makes Max human.

Edited to say, Zero, 'I feel your pain, man'. I love Max and I hate to think about him being portrayed like this, but trust Liz's judgement. If she doesn't give up on him neither should we. Just keep repeating 'It's not Max', Max is an 'incredibly honorable guy'. And besides, I'm depending on you to point out the visual clues to Stepford Max!

This one is for Reggie, I'm only going on screencaps, but Max also appears to have changed his hairstyle. Any clues there?

I also got the creepy feeling when Liz was in the junkyard. Remember how she felt compelled to put her hand on th bloodstain? (As opposed to Max who tells Tss he didnt want to touch Alex)

Which makes me remember the image of Max with blood on his hands.
Yes - Max is responsible for Alex's death.

Also - in the *real* Max and Liz bedroom scence - did Max looking in the mirror (before Liz showed up) seem weird?? Max seemed weird to me there.
Shapeshifter - Max did seem weird the whole episode and I dont like the new hair. Its Stepford Max hair.

From a former english teacher - the "miles to go" poem is a poem about suicide. Its about contemplating suicide - and then realizing you "have promises to keep". Alex leaving that poem was definately a sign that Alex did NOT kill himself.

Max and Alex - did he even TRY to heal him?
The van never shook. Even if the healing failed - when Max used his powers - it should have shook the van.
Did he not want to leave a handprint? Was someone (cough cough TESS cough cough) manipulating him? He should have recieved flashes when he attempted to heal Alex (even with the body dead and energy-less - if Max gets flashes from a compact disk - he should get flashes from a murdered friend). I dont think Max tried (or should I say - I believe Max was STOPPED from trying to heal Alex). And who is the only one present who could have had a motive to stop Max from connecting with Alex??? Tess. The same person who tells them to "keep their voices down" in the Valenti home. The one - whom in whoose presence Max (who PROMISED Liz he would not let Alex's death get decared a suicide) suddenly "changes his tune" and gets ugly with her. And why would she not want the truth to come out???? Because she is involved.

GraceKel - I never noticed that alien w/baby before - LOL! It just seemed like it kept being shown this episode.

Someone asked about Brody - he was a main character in the episode that was SUPPOSED to air before HOM. They decided not to air the eppy in response to the rash of recent school shootings.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

The first thing that struck me when watching the preview (besides severe nausea) was the phrasing that Tess chose - "I'm here for you for all eternity". Did that sound funny to anyone else's ears? I can honestly say that it would never occur to me to say anything remotely like that to my husband, let alone an alien boyfriend. I can see things like "I'm here for you", "I will love you forever", even "I will love you til death do us part" for pete's sake! To me, it just showed (once again) that Tess just doesn't seem able to grasp the finer points of being a human female or of expressing herself in a normal human way (other than sexually or with MW/MR). I am not trying to bash her, but you have to think that the writers choose the words for a reason.

Back to mourning Alex's "death" (talk about hard to fall asleep last night!!)

Max and Alex - did he even TRY to heal him?
The van never shook. ...
Strbx,Thanx for the poem interp.
Is thought van would shake when Alex sat up, I think. But, yea, not sure he tried.

Just wanted to post that Qfanny was there during the filming and I would like to think that her presence caused the actors to do their best acting ever!

Reggie, bread & wine--a stretch, but nice interp.

Is thought van would shake when Alex sat up, I think. But, yea, not sure he tried.
[/B]

After I posted I also realized there was NO flash of light. The van had windows - because we saw Max inside with the diamond grating reflected on his face. There was NO flash of light inside the van - NO shaking.
Alex sitting up couldnt shake a huge van - it would have to be the powers that did it.
I am almost 100% convinced that Max never even tried to heal Alex. He may not even realize he didnt try - especially since to NOT try he would have to be under mind control.

**Starbox**
mythologist, dreamer

BINARY CODE! I was laying in bed last night thinking WHAT is that? You'd think after 4 years of CS/Math I'd know. Anyway, I know someone tried to decifer it and came up with not-too-many conclusions? It would make sense that it's Binary Code though - Alex WAS the computer wize! I'll get back to you on this one..

Also, remember the scene in one of Iz's dreams - right before Alex leaves the CD - he says to Iz, "I don't think you'd want me to be here". What did that mean? Was he trying to tell her something of future events? Is it something about the Pod Squad "going home" (well, at least these danged promo's suggest that - I'm spoiler free though so *shhh* if you know more! ) that made Alex say that? Could he know that Iz would have had to choose one day between him and Antar? OR - could it be something more complicated?

More clues - more question - I have to say though - this was by FAR one of the best episodes as of late (tissues and all )!

There's gotta be something to the Crouching Tigger/Matrix compariso, too. Unless it just fits Max and Michael's personalities so well and RM just threw it in for a little humor! And how funny was that, "crappy tigger" line? And "I'm not letting you"

Ice-that was a very interesting Tess theory...I read it at the dreamer thread I think and I also thought it was perfect to repost in here . Thank you for that!

quote:Originally posted by Metaphysicalgrl:

I know I always come back to the 'Balance' as being extremely important, and I think it comes into play here YET AGAIN.
... Max made a connection, but was unable to heal (Grandma Claudia) because her energy, her soul or whatever it is had already left her body.

I also believe that it has something to do with Max just simply 'not being IN BALANCE'. Perhaps his new timeline (just being Tess's mate) is affecting his heart which affects his brain which in turn affects his entire healing powers all together, not to mention the fact Alex's energy was just not there (in his body) anymore as you well said.

quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
[b]Macaroni and cheese. Think about it. Macaroni is made from wheat, like bread. Cheese is made with fungi, like wine is. Macaroni & cheese... bread and wine. The resurrected King gives Liz bread and wine, sort of. AM I RINGING ANY BELLS HERE?

Reggie they are ringing! They are ringing ! You know this is soo funny, I just came back from seeing the 'Last Supper' (the painting) and now I have this mental image of Jesus feeding everyone mac n cheese . Too funny. There was also a lot of talk concerning how the Apostle to his right was a woman. Digressing, anyhows,...

quote:Originally posted by SweetJo:
Ok, RBI's here it goes!
11100100100111011001
In binary code:
-part of it can be a K
-part of it can be Jan. 1st, 2004

but the whole binary code turns up nothing--111 is not part of any code or something

See I see something else
-no binary code

I don't know why Alex would write anything about that though.Unless he's not Alex...
I think Kivar would not be stupid enough to leave a clue like that for Liz.

Actually, Maizli and I had a theory about this from the beginning that Khivar was possessing all the men near Isabel! What Liz said that meant was 'I have lots of miles to travel lots to go' and she knew that it was Khivar . Thats why she recognized it right away I also think she may have been remembering how aliens sign their names . Its pretty obvious Khivar still has lots of miles to travel since he is on his way to earth . He was definately possessing Alex. Regardless what the binary code meant that was just proof to Liz that it was an and that Alex did NOT kill himself.

What else? I agree with Melodious about Liz getting sick in front of where Tess was. If Tess is mindwarping Max and taking over Liz's persona I think that the change in the timeline that FMax and Liz did made Liz no longer have a baby and perhaps now Tess will be the one 'carrying the alien child' sort to speak. Well it definately was not just morning sickness at night ...

I did love though how Tess tells Max to go follow her (Is) and Max looks at Liz and then SHE tells him to go and THEN he went . Darn right he better still know whos the boss ...

Can I add something - which of course doesn't have a scientic, profound meaning behind it but when I heard that Genie Francis was being cast as Isabel & Max's mother I was glad. She is on my soap General Hospital. OK, I know she is married to Jonathan Frakes BUT -

On General Hospital her character's son is in love with his soulmate (which he calls her) LIZ. Laura (Genie Francis) believes in Liz and that she is the best thing to ever happen to her son. They have said that they are destined to be together forever and that their love has a permanent lock in their hearts.

Anyhow, I just thought that was funny.

Cantbehrit

I do not have much time right now, so I will catch up later. I just wanted to post my thoughts...it is a good way to clear my head.

Liz is amazing. She is strong and smart and kind and driven. Without her the podsters would be lost, Maria would be lost. I felt that her suspicions toward Alex's death are allowing her to keep her anger as her driving point. If she let's go of that she may feel as though she will drown in sorrow. For a control freak (like me and Liz) that is a terrifying thought. It is really scary to feel as though you can't control your grief. I, too, will use anger to help focus me. She seems to be nearing the end of her rope. Which is why I am so glad that Sean is there for her. Sean is not adding to her stress, he takes some of it away. I may be verbally "stoned" for this but what the heck, Sean is good for Liz. I have loved Max and Liz, but they do seem to be growing beyond one antother. My PRIMARY concern is to see them happy. ESPECIALLY LIZ, she is my favorite character. Liz has had so much heart ache in both seasons, I want to see some happiness and if that means her heart leads her to Sean, great. I love Roswell, with or without Mand L together!!

~Sheri

I love to see Liz back in action solving the mysteries again!! She gets my vote for TV characters women of the year award!!

After watching CYN again I noticed that Alex did indeed buy the tickets for the Beth Orton concert before meeting with Liz and Maria. Someone last night speculated that he didn't, well after watching the scene at the start of the show again when Maria and Liz held up the Robert Frost book, the tickets were sticking out of the top, they weren't sticking out as far as they were when Liz found them later, but they were sticking out. Also, something else I noticed, when Liz was looking for clues in Alex's room, when the camera panned over his desk the Thai food(unopened) and the coke is still in the same place Alex placed it when we, the audience,last saw him alive.

This tells me that when Alex went to his room and started to stare at the picture of he and Leanna, that was it, that was certainly the beginning of the end, and what ever happened between then and the accident, was definitely leading up to his death, but what I want to know is what happened in those hours??? Also, Hanson said that there were skid marks, that means that Alex tried to stop the car from skidding into the truck, so there's more proof that Alex did not committ suicide. Did he wake up from a dream or perhaps a mindwarp to find himself driving head on into a truck???

Another theory I have is what if the body Max went to heal was NOT Alex. And the bodies were switched or something before the paramedics got there. Max said that there was a lot of blood, yet when Liz went to look in the car after the crash there was no blood, I mean there was some kind of stain on the seat that seemed to me to coincide with the seatbelt (which to me doesn't make sense), but other than that no blood. If Alex was that bloody I would think there would've been blood all over the seats. Also, Max saying that his body was so cold, would Alex's body be that cold if he just died a couple of hours earlier????

Starbox - I think that perhaps Max healing Alex might've been similiar to when he tried to heal Nasedo. I don't believe there was any light when Max tried to heal Nasedo, but if there was it was very dim because his powers weren't working on him. Makes me wonder again, if the body Max tried to heal was indeed Alex or someone else???

I thought it was very interesting that Kyle agreed with Liz about something not being right, like someone stated earlier could this intuition have something to do with the healings and perhaps a form of their powers??? Especially Liz, her intuition so far has always been proven to be right on point.

Did anyone get anything from Liz seperating the pictures of Alex at the end of the episode??? I know that she was remembering him, but I sort of got the impression that she was looking for something, that there was more to this scene than meets the eye.

I agree that Liz's instinctive reaction to Alex's death was in part due to her developing powers. I too wondered if with Kyle's birthday his powers began to "kick in" and that's why he could feel Liz is on to something.

I really didn't understand why, when Liz says "I saw you kissing Tess" Max doesn't reply "Yeah, well I saw you with Kyle." It makes me think there is something to the theory his memories are being altered. Regg, I agree his instinct was to feed her and look out for her strength. But why a FROZEN dinner??? Back to cold food again...
-HH

ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA

ZAN

harem
(Arabic harim), in Muslim countries, that part of a house set apart for the women of the family. The word harimi is used collectively to refer to the women themselves. Zanana (from the Persian word zan, “woman”) is the term used for harem in India, andarun (Persian: “inner part” [of a house]) in Iran.

Although usually associated in Western thought with Muslim practices, harems are known to have existed in the pre-Islamic civilizations of the Middle East; there the harem served as the secure, private quarters of women who nonetheless played various roles in public life. Muhammad did not originate the idea of the harem or of the seclusion and veiling of women, but he sponsored them, and, wherever Islam spread, these institutions went with it. The virtual removal of women from public life was more typical of the Islamic harem than of its predecessors.

In pre-Islamic Assyria, Persia, and Egypt, most of the royal courts included a harem, consisting of the ruler's wives and concubines, their female attendants, and eunuchs. These royal harems performed important political, as well as social, roles. Rulers often added wives to their harems as a means of cementing political alliances. As wives attempted to maneuver themselves and their sons into positions of power, the harem became an arena in which rival factions fought for ascendancy at the court. Since these women were usually from influential and powerful families, harem intrigues frequently had wide-ranging repercussions, including, in some cases, the downfall of dynasties .

(Well now we know why he was a bad ruler, TOO MANY women ...)

AVA

Ava
ancient capital of central Myanmar (Burma), on the left bank of the Irrawaddy River at the Myitnge confluence. It is linked by a road and rail bridge, 5,894 feet (1,796 m) long, to the town of Sagaing; this is the only place where the Irrawaddy is bridged. Its name is a corruption of the Burmese Inwa, meaning “entrance to the lake.” The site was chosen in 1364 by the Shans who succeeded the Pagan dynasty. The location allowed the Shans to control the rice supply from the Kyaukse irrigated area to the south, which became vital after the traditional rice-growing area in southern Myanmar had been lost to a Mon kingdom. Ava flourished until destroyed by a rival group of Shans in 1527. In 1634 it again became the Myanmar capital under the Toungoo dynasty. Although it fell to the Mons in 1752, Alaungpaya, the Myanmar leader, recovered it; but he chose Shwebo (60 miles [100 km] north) as his capital. When Alaungpaya founded the Konbaung dynasty, Ava served as capital (1765–83 and 1823–37). Although the dynasty frequently changed capitals and built Amarapura (1783) and Mandalay (1857), its seat was always referred to by outsiders as the “Court of Ava.” From the 15th century, Europeans used the term Ava as a synonym for central and northern Myanmar. Little remains at the site except for a monastery.

& this...

RATH

rath \Rath\, n. [Ir. rath.] 1. A hill or mound. [Ireland] --Spencer.

2. A kind of ancient fortification found in Ireland.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

rath \Rath\, Rathe \Rathe\, a. [AS. hr[ae][eth], hr[ae]d, quick, akin to OHG. hrad, Icel. hra[eth]r.] Coming before others, or before the usual time; early. [Obs. or Poetic]

Liz: "If there's anything we've learned this past year, it's that nothing is what it seems."

Perhaps this is too simplistic, but I thought she was looking for a picture of both her and Alex together. In between remembering him, the camera showed all sorts of pics of Alex with Isabel and other proms pics. She finally settled on the group picture that had both of them smiling and apparently happy (and if memory serves correctly, the camera showed Alex and then her - I could be wrong). That is when the dam broke and the tears finally started.

Zan a diminutive form of Alexander meaning man's defender. Max a diminutive form of Maximillian meaning greatest or a diminutive form of Maxwell meaning great well. taken together I think that this means Max/Zan is to become man's greatest defender. most likely an outgrowth of his love for Liz.

Tess means fourth child. Ava means like a bird. I don't know what to make of this, but I hope that means Ava/Tess won't stay anyplace to long and will be moving on.

Lonnie means lion. Isabel a diminutive form of Elizabeth means pledged to God. I hope this makes Lonnie/Isabel a fierce protector of her God, her King Max.

there was no listing for Rath. Michael means who is like the lord? i hope this means that michael wants to be a better leader and someone to look up to, like Max. maybe in that way he will prove himself in the remainer of the season.

Liz is also a dimuntive form of Elizabeth, pledged to God. i think Max will also prove to be Liz's God/King when they marry and their two planets are united and become allies. in the meantime Liz's God is truth and that is why she is determined to get to the bottom of Alex's death.

I think that we will also find that Alex (a diminutive form or Alexander) was also playing the role of man's defender and that is what cost him his life.

notice also the repeated alliance. Max/Lix: mans defender and pledged to God. Alex/Is: mans defender and pledged to God. that can't be a mistake. the women are pledged to something bigger that the sum of the parts and the men defend even the weakest of us. as a unit they make an enlightened whole capable of incredible strength, courage and ability. stand back Tess you don't have a chance when Max and Liz unite.

I don't have any great insights this morning. I plan to rewatch the episode today - once or twice - and will take notes this time and post my more organized thoughts! Last night were my emotional, gut thoughts.

Some excellent observations and questions have been posted!

One thing keeps popping into my mind - I guess it is because "Liz" is back, and she reminded me of a young Scully (from X-files). I keep thinking of "The Truth is Out There!" If you are into X-files - you will no this phrase - and it seems sooooo fitting to what Liz is quest is right now - so I'm adopting it for this show!

Charmed Kitten - thanks for posting the poem! It is beautiful, and definitely a huge clue!

I think Liz was going through the pictures for BOTH memories and clues! This is going to be a great ride!

I will be back to check the thread to see if we need a new on in an hour or so. I will post my new thoughts on the new thread!

Zero
I Shall (try to continue to) Believe!
The Truth is Out There!

It's been awile since I've posted here. But, just had to add a thought on this. Hope I can make myself understood, I have a migraine today and trying to work! Loopy on meds!!

Anyway, I think this is also a HUGE clue. I wonder if Isabel is channeling Alex's "essence" into her dream. Kind of like Max helping Liz to see Grandma Claudia when she died. Isabel's power is to dream walk. She may not even know she did it. It sent chills up my spine when he said it! "If I were you, I wouldn't want me to be here." Oddly, direct to her!

I also thought that Liz was going to get a flash or something at Alex's car. She seemed so compelled to touch the bloody seat. (So many missed opportunities for the writers to showcase her powers!)

Anyways! Thanks for letting me put in my $.02!
~ck

One thing I absolutely loved that was demonstrated in this episode was that although Liz had saw Max kissing Tess--when Liz was in trouble feeling alone the first person she turned to was the one she shares a deep connection to---Max---just like him turning to her in ARCC eppy after they Kyle fiasco. WHAT A BOND!!!!!--Of course I could have used just a bit more sweetness even if it were only temporary but I guess that was not realistic enough given the state of things.
Loved when Amy D tells Michael--Welcome on the couch---I got a good laugh out of that one.
Starbox thanks for the info on the poem very interesting indeed.

I'm loving your thoughts everyone. I'll try to fit another viewing after class today to search for more clues, but I have a paper I need to send today and and exam on Thursday to study for. Although I doubt 10% of my brain will be on either

Roxy

I must admit I'm shocked to be the first to point this out! The group photo Liz pulls out is the one that was taken in HOM when Liz was narrating about her really strong, really upsetting feeling that it would be the last time they all stood together like that. This is the pic that finally cracks her façade b/c she knows now that she had a true premonition.

StarBox Max's hair has been slicked off to one side for everything "formal": the wedding flash, the prom, and now the funeral. If you'll recall, Kyle's was slicked back for the Vegas supper club & the prom too. It's something guys do for formal stuff. As for Max looking in the mirror when Liz shows, he's checking the fit of his suit so that he'll be all ready for the following day. Since there's still a white tag on the right sleeve near the cuff, I'm assuming it's a new suit, but if it were an old one he would be checking to see if it still fit as well. My guess would be that his mother prob. bought him a suit during the day using his measurements and he was just making sure it fit. I've seen my guy friends do the same thing for funerals when we were in high school.

Also, as for no light coming out of the van, nor any shaking: Isabel figured it would shake b/c Max would jump back. That's the movement that would cause the shaking, not the healing. And, when Max healed Kyle is the ONLY time there's been a light. There was no light when he healed Liz, nor when he healed the children, and there certainly wasn't an energy kickback during any of the healings. So while I'll reserve judgement at this point as to whether the body was really Alex or whatever, I do believe that Max did try to heal him. Max did not get flashes when he tried to heal Nasedo, either. I think it was probably just too long after the accident; if there's no energy left to bring into balance, there's no way to heal the body.

I have a ton of observations, but they are not in any coherent format yet so I'll bring them by piece by piece later

I Shall Believe
~Tas

One more thing--interesting when the Sheriff interviews the delivery boy and he says "like End of the World" kinda thing-don't know if that is exact---but what jumped out at me here of course-----maybe in this new timeline-----the END OF THE WORLD was greatly SPEEDED UP????????? Not what they had in mind I am sure but sounds like things coming to a head sooner??

So it looks like for awhile it will be humans against aliens. Liz being the leader of the humens and Max the leader of the aliens. Liz of course is a strong leader and with Kyle, Maria and I'm sure Sean backing her up they will solve the mystery behind Alex's death in no time. I also think that Michael will end up helping Liz in the end, if only for Maria. He did seem like he was torn on CYN. What I love about Liz is that she doesn't need to give orders. She is followed because she is respected.

As for Max, I kind of have the same feeling for him as I do for Tess, I don't care about them one way or the other. On the up coming episodes He will be making babies with Tess and crying that everyone has left him. I keep wondering how this will help further the plot? I know that are clues push Max and Liz together, but at this point Liz is far to strong a character to be partnered with Max. She will spend too much time wiping away his tears and are Liz doesn't carry tissue, unlike Max, she carries guts.

Evid

First of all, Melody, I TOTALLY agree with you about the scene where iz started coughing and got sick. I thought something really creepy was going to happen. I also thought that some kind of alien thing may have killed Alex and was after Liz as well. A disease or something?

As for mac and cheese (which WAS my fave food until Reggie ruined it with the fungus description!! ) Mac and Cheese is known as a "comfort food". Something you ate when you were little to feel better. Something that made you happy.

I also thought that max didn't try at all to save Alex. I think he's more cuatious now. What kind of LIE would you have to make up to explian how a dead person in a body bag came back to life? I think he was worried they'd be caught again.

I also think we have have a situation like in the books-Alex has been transported to another dimension, time, planet, etc. In the books when Alex was on their planet (which never did get named did it?) the gang was able to communicate with him. Perhaps Liz should try? Maybe Isabel's dreams meant something?

I also thought in the scene where Liz was going over prom pictures she was looking for clues. GOSH I wish I could rewatch this episode! <grumble VCRs... technology grumble>

Someone on the AOL boards tried to decipher the binary code but it didn't seem liek much of a clue. Are we sure it's binary code? I was thinking that there may be two pieces of paper that fit together (one on top of the other) to make some sort of a message? Or perhaps the way the numbers were spaced is the clue? Too much for me... :eyespin:

Wow almost time for another thread already?
Bye
Pooh

I am trying to catch up on this thread...wheh! I just wanted to let EVID know that I agree with her last post. I am disappointed with Max too. And will be just as happy at this point to see Liz truly move on....

I am not entirely sure why I am so drawn to Liz's character, but I am...I wanna be Liz when I grow up. I love this thread best because we all appreciate her even though we don't all agree, we KNOW LIZ is important!!

~Sheri

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira."

Also, remember the scene in one of Iz's dreams - right before Alex leaves the CD - he says to Iz, "I don't think you'd want me to be here". What did that mean? Was he trying to tell her something of future events? Is it something about the Pod Squad "going home" (well, at least these danged promo's suggest that - I'm spoiler free though so *shhh* if you know more! ) that made Alex say that? Could he know that Iz would have had to choose one day between him and Antar? OR - could it be something more complicated?

Just a weird thought, it probably doesn't fit, but just that line made me think that it's something Kivar might say to Isabel.

Perhaps Kivar was dreamwalking Isabel. Ew, that's creepy.

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
Also - in the *real* Max and Liz bedroom scence - did Max looking in the mirror (before Liz showed up) seem weird?? Max seemed weird to me there.
Shapeshifter - Max did seem weird the whole episode and I dont like the new hair. Its Stepford Max hair.
I also thought that scene was strange. And this whole hair change for Max I noticed that last ep, but forgot to mention it. He seems to always have his hair swept back i.e. no bangs whenever he is distraught. Take a look at the White Room scenes.

Okay now to the clues... I rewatched it again this morning and took notes. It felt good to be taking notes once again about Roswell.
Alex's dialogue for the food delivery man: "I'm so sick of this... (I'm or It's)... always the same thing, always cold, always the same thing... I'm just so sick of everything." ::Long Pause:: "Why does life have to be so wrong? Why does everything have to be a lie?"
Hmm... I think several of you may be onto something with the cold food idea. My first thought was that he was possessed by some evil alien.
The sticker below the Swedish picture on his desk reads: "everyman working class rock-n-roll"
I haven't figured out if that actually means anything. Just thought how it was interesting that the camera panned over it.
The "Matrix" and "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" film discussion.
I also felt that this was a clue. The Matrix is about illusion. That what you think is reality is not at all real. Hmmm... mind warp anyone? or possession and hypnosis? It is also about a "chosen one". Now, there is that "dragon" again. Yes, Max says its about love, honor, and duty. But maybe it is also just about the title... who is the crouching tiger? Who is the hidden dragon?
Why does Tess look so upset? She actually falter when the first learn of the accident. But later when Liz confronts the group in Alex's bedroom, Tess tries to discount Liz's theories. Hmmm....
Liz doesn't know yet that Isabel is leaving. This could turn the plot in an interesting direction.
The quote that seemed to stand out for me last night and yet again this morning was Liz saying, "Nothing is ever what it seems." Now in light of the Matrix discussion. Does this not make you wonder if what we think is reality is just an illusion. Hmmm...
Kyle saying, "I guess it's us versus them." Hmm...
Tess' line from the promo has also been bothering me and this morning it dawned on me just why. She says, "I'll be here for eternity." That is not a normal thing to say. One usually says I'll always be here for you or something like that. Nope, eternity. Hmmm... It reminds me of something dracula would say to his bride or vice-a-versa. It seems sinister and I don't think it's just the dreamer in me surfacing. I felt last night that Tess made the jump back to first season Tess. There is something seriously fishy going on here. It's as if she has been drawing everyone in and now she has Max in her clutches. It's a tangled web she weaves and this black widow is about to suck Roswell dry. Yikes! Sorry for that analogy. That was not meant to bash. Just a strange gut feeling.

Once again, Kudos to Ron Moore for turning out a fantastic episode. And Liz, YOU GO GIRL!

So here goes...

1. I thought that Liz was categorizing the pictures when she was searching through them. Like she was methodically looking for something. It was only when she saw the group prom pic and remembered her premonition that she broke down.

2. Max did try to heal Alex. When he came out of the van he had blood all over his hands. Side note: my theory here is that while he can heal people, bringing them back from the dead is an altogether different thing. You have to work with what you have, and if the person is already gone then you have nothing to heal.

3. Liz and the "signiture". I don't think she knows exactly what it means yet, just that it means that Alex didn't kill himself and she remembered the Frost poem as a way of saying that.

Hmmmm, that's all for now, thanks for letting me share!

Shanna

I know lots of questions, I'd love to hear some comments. I think Max has always been of aware of his (and therefore the aliens) connection to Liz and this was his window of opportunity to establish an open path between the two that could never be broken. Although, at the moment the connection is certainly drawing a lot of stress. Maybe on a subconscious level Max had some understanding he needed to help Liz develop and explore her powers so she could fulfill her role in his and the alien's destinies. Now I'd like to see Liz's powers take center stage so we can see just what she is capable of. Maybe last nights retching episode was the by product of being able to fight off a mind warp that was trying to lead all to believe in Alex's suicide.

Comments anybody?

Zero
I Shall (try to continue to) Believe!
The Truth Is Out There!

More about Tess: You know I think the thing that really set me off was reading her prom memory description cards over at the silverhandprint yesterday. I seriously thought she had gone off the edge, she seemed totally loopy. The whole destiny with Max thing from season one was back and very evident. Plus her song with Kyle was "Oops I did it again" The lines in that song go something like... I played with your heart, I made you believe we're more than just friends, Why was she toying with Kyle. Was it to make us leave our guards down so she can trot on in for the kill? I think the group definitely started to accept her more once she became good friends with Kyle. Hmmm....