There is never a dull moment on this thread, and we appreciate the new episodes to digest – especially with the refocus on Liz’s importance to the storyline! Even though Heart of Mine and Cry Your Name have some inducing scenes, and future episodes look to provide even more conflict in the Max and Liz relationship, we have been provided lots of stuff to chat about and dissect! SO, JK and RM – keep it coming PLEASE!! !! Plus – we have seen so many newbies joining into the discussion which is wonderful!!

Feedback is always welcome! Just PM me. I will continue to let you know when I up-date the Introduction so you can head over there to read the new information when I add it in.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Background

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY!

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz's importance to the pod squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember - NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome!

Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection

Consequence of the Connection - the Change?

Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really?

Granolith - How does it fit in?

Destiny - Liz and Max!

Follow Your Heart

Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

Chakras

Einstein's Light Cone

Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV

The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up!

The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things?

The Catalyst - Liz!

Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in?

Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run"

Hero Journey - Liz's Path

I wanted to add that I believe the occurrences of the last two episodes (HOM and CYN) play right into Liz’s Hero Journey!

Grandma Claudia - the first connection?

I just wanted to add here that many of us believe that that fact that Liz’s necklace that she wore to the Prom had been Grandma Claudia’s is VERY SIGNIFICANT! Finally, a tie into GC, her Native American connection and Season 1! Now – if we could only figure out “what” the necklace was! Maybe this was a foreshadowing that GC will be the connection to the aliens that we always thought she was/is!

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Don’t let the current state of affairs (pun intended!) concern you – Liz and Max are soulmates and lifebond! The truth is out there! And Liz will find it! (Even Maria agrees with that!)

Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection?

Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars!

Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Numbers keep cropping up that seem to fall into our 2, 3, 5 groupings. Like the bus that Liz misses is 33_5, the bowling alley lane is 32, Max remembers 3 moons, Alex’s funeral and the concert is on 5/5 and the song at the end of Cry Your Name mentions the number 3! Also, the truck driver had 1 drink, 3 hours before! There is no way that this is just a coincidence!

Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz?

Skins - What lies below the surface?

We keep wondering where Nicko disappeared to – and Lonnie, Rath and Ava for that matter. Is it just a matter of time before Kivar shows up? Maybe – with Alex’s death – he already has?? Ummm….!

Shapeshifters - Are there more than one?

Remember – Harding and Nasedo and Tic Tac are NOT all one and the same shapeshifter! I still believe that Tic Tac is out there watching over Liz!

Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation

Other than the very end of HOM, have you noticed that though Tess holds onto Max – we have yet to see them hold hands – a sign of connection and energy between Max and Liz.

Mythology!

Dates

Dates seem to be of extreme interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research. If you find a date I’ve missed or see one that is wrong – PM me with the change and where you got your information! I’m always looking for new dates!

New dates added include:

4/27/2001 – Roswell Prom & Date Liz begins to start writing in her Journal again. (Heart of Mine)
5/3/2001 – Alex is killed. (Cry Your Name)
5/4/2001 – Kyle’s Birthday (18th?) (Cry Your Name)
5/5/2001 – Alex Whitman’s funeral (Cry Your Name)

In Summary

Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff or THE WB reads this or the Intro), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!"

And as to the Season 3 rumors – this is a wonderful show, with the potential to be another “X-files” with intimate relationships if done right! SO – please don’t let it go!!

A couple of general "rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed – I can’t emphasize this enough as we move towards the season finale), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions/preview and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. If you know what a preview “really means” due to spoilers, please DON’T tell us – let us speculate – we will find out soon enough! Thanks!

As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz - says - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)!

Zero
I Shall (Try to Continue to) Believe!!
The Truth Is Out There! (and only the Humans can find it!)

Please check out the link to the full gallery: http://ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology/gallery.htm

The most compelling visual evidence of Liz's mythology and connection to Max is the fact that when they come together - they often form the symbol on the orb found in Sexual Healing:

When you get there, just do a Ctrl+F and type in Windmill to find occurrances of the word on the thread.

Starbox could you please PM me re: the info from that new Roswell book you previously mentioned? It's killing me Do they actually explain why Liz was shot back in S1? Liz's importance? ... so many questions, so little answers ...

As for the new Roswell book being spoiler related... I take it this thread considers all Silverhandprint tidbits open for discussion-- even though the info does not come from watching the show (but is sanctioned by TPTB). Then I would conclude that the book (also sanctioned by TPTB) is the same thing, open for discussion.

The book is the same has the website, clues etc presented using a different aspect of media. (depending on how much input TPTB have in the book, then the info discussed should be done with the appropriate grain of salt )

I noticed that the day of Alex's funeral and also the concert was May 5th, other wise known as Cinco de Mayo. Here is a little history about this date.
Cinco de Mayo is a date of great importance for the Mexican and Chicano communities. It marks the victory of the Mexican Army over the French at the Battle of Puebla. Althought the Mexican army was eventually defeated, the "Batalla de Puebla" came to represent a symbol of Mexican unity and patriotism. With this victory, Mexico demonstrated to the world that Mexico and all of Latin America were willing to defend themselves of any foreign intervention. Especially those from imperialist states bent on world conquest.
So could this mean Alex was welling to defend against any foreign, or should we say "alien" intervention who were bent on world conquest. Just how deep was Alex's involvement?
Oh and get this. The French were eventually able to depose the Mexican army, take over Mexico City and install "Maximilian" as ruler.

EvidA brief sequel: Maximilian's rule proved untenable -- after French support was withdrawn, he was captured and executed.

The first time Michael used that nickname for Max (early in episode 2) it was to urge him to stay ready to leave quickly -- "Don't get in too deep, Maximilian."

first time posting on this thread (i think) and just wanted to say that i love reading everyone's theories. i'm not 100% positive that this is the right thread to post this on, and i'm a little bit behind on reading everyone's comments from the last thread, so this may have already been said, or on another topic, but here goes. i must warn that this is rather a long post, sorry.

i've been thinking a lot about tess and the dupes and the previews we've been seeing for the remaining episodes. does everyone remember how lonnie said in MITC that she still had a card up her sleeve? and also how tess didn't exactly try that hard to save max when rath and lonnie were trying to kill him? i mean, this is the girl who vaporized a room full of skins, and she couldn't get away from rath with her mind-warping capabilities?? someone give me a break! and of course, the next thing that happens is that tess, rath, and lonnie have disappeared. now, max assumes that the dupes kidnapped tess, and indeed this is what seems to have happened when he finds her. somehow she has magically regained her abilities to fight against the bad guys. (nice that she'll fight to defend herself, but not to defend her hubby who she professes undying love and devotion to, isn't it?)

ok, this leads me to a not too far-out idea. forgive me if this has been expressed before, but seeing the previews kinda fleshed out some of the gaps that i couldn't figure out earlier. what if tess was the card up lonnie's sleeve? and more specifically than tess, tess and max's unborn baby. now what does lonnie really want? to go home, right? but nick said she couldn't go home without the granolith. unfortunately for lonnie, there's no way max is going to disclose to her the location of that precious object, so she has to find some way to trick him into telling her. so what does she do? she enlists tess to help her out. she gets her to use her mindwarping abilities to manipulate max so that he thinks he's falling in love with her. but even tess can see that while liz and max are still close she'll never be able to 'cement' things with max.

so what does she do? she kills alex. takes control of his car and drives him into a semi. naturally, this creates a great deal of stress within the group as they all are grieving and their emotions are raw. then she leaves the picture for liz to find, knowing that liz will investigate things looking for an explanation for alex's accident. maybe she even goes so far as to control the delivery guy and/or alex (when he's signing the receipt) and makes him bring liz that receipt, except maybe it's not really alex's receipt, it's a fake to keep liz digging for answers.

well, we all saw what happened when liz suggested to the group that maybe alex was killed and possibly by an alien. major stress and division of the group. we see in the previews that liz's determination to get to the bottom of the mystery creates a rift between her and max. now's the time for tess to make her move on max. what does she do?? she seduces him, with the sole intent of getting pregnant. but why would she do that? well, i would suspect that there's some kind of reason why the baby wouldn't be safe on earth- it needs particular medical care while developing or after it's born, or maybe giving birth to the baby would be fatal to tess if she stayed on earth or something, who knows? the point is, max would feel guilty and obligated to protect tess and the unborn baby. if the only way to do this were to get tess or the baby back to the homeworld, lonnie's got it made. max would then reveal to her the location of the granolith in exchange for a way to get back to the home planet. thus, the line from the previews about being able to go home.

i realize that there are quite a few problems with this theory, not the least of which being that tess knows the location of the granolith and could have told lonnie in ny. maybe the granolith requires the presence of the king or the entire royal four in order to function as a portal to the homeworld. i dunno. the idea just kinda has been taking shape in my head, and i finally had to get it out so i'll have room to find some ideas for my homework...

anyways, please feel free to dissect and completely discredit my goofy theory.

totenhosen.

p.s. i can't imagine how awful liz is gonna feel when she learns that tess is pregnant. i mean, after knowing from future max that their cementing things was what really brought them together for good, and also the fact that they had been married... hey, it's kinda creepy, but liz has kinda brought about the complete opposite of the future the FMax revealed to her- now max is alienating liz instead of tess!!

Oh, and Zero, like your new opening. Very simple and quick to have it on another page.

Now I'm going back and reading the last thread.

RW

cool cool cool

The book takes place two years after the shooting (next year). I wont post about Tess/Alex but this book is approved by TPTB behind the series - and it is supposed to be out next month (possibly intended to get out after the finale) - so - if you dont want to know - wait on the book. If you are DYING to know - PM me and Ill tell you if Tess is around and if Alex is dead

Okay my additional comments:
Some people are asking how I got the book - I work at Barnes and Noble. We just recieved it - it is not a "strict on sale" book - which means that although the release date is in May - bookstores can sell it as soon as it gets recieved - you may be able to find it locally or at bn.com

I do not think the book should be discussed.
It is official and sancioned by TPTB - it also is cannonical with the show - it includes references to past episodes including season two episodes - I would consider some of it to be EXTREMELY spoilerish.
I have responded to the PM"s I have gotten about Alex/Tess - if you want to know that info - PM me and keep it off the boards - at least until after the season finale

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Well, I do like the Lonnie's-behind-it part. It would answer for Isabel's dream-Alex: that was Lonnie. It could also answer my problem with the crashed car: there was no headon! Lonnie may have been able to get Alex to flip his car, and/or convince the truckdriver that he hit something. Rath to take care of the strong-arm stuff, if necessary. That little rat Nikolas could be helping, too; if an illusionist (like Tess) is needed.

I'm not sold on the Tess-is-evil bit just yet. In fact, I'll argue that she may be the podster that pitches in with Liz.

While she was the first to poo-poo the concert tickets, that was just after Max indicated that he thought suicide was a possibility. She was backing him up, as usual. Given a moment's thought, she might realize that she needed to thwart any potential danger to Max (and incidently to herself). It would also look bad if Liz was right and she was wrong. I look for some suspicious co-operation between them.

I should think so!
I agree, that this book is definitely a SPOILERFEST, and I don't want to know.
Yet.

totenhosen

The Destiny book.

Well, what if the binary code somehow goes with the destiny book? I've been thinking that perhaps the destiny book was actually meant to be 'viewed'. And by 'viewed' I don't mean read, but I mean watched.

Remember how it says ZiL? Well, what if the code unlocks some kind of program to view the Destiny book, or maybe if you shine a certain light (alien related from a crystal, perhaps?) on the book the light would reflect off the metal onto another surface and what appeared backwards in the book - would actually read normally. Like a negative, almost. So ZiL would say Liz.

Does anybody know anything about negatives? Is it possible that the book can almost be like a 'negative' and that when read correctly that ZiL becomes Liz?

Maybe I'm crazy, but I was just thinking about it so I figured I would mention it.

A threat to Max is a threat to Tess; and to Tess&Max

And I who never read book jackets have a copy of Loose Ends by Gregg Cox on order and do hereby request that discussions of the not-even-yet-released Loose Ends be taken to a new thread for now, at least. Thanx.

"Gripa Det Dagen" - what language is that?

I like "Caviet Emptor"(sp?) i don't take latin but i always hear it

Does anybody know anything about negatives? Is it possible that the book can almost be like a 'negative' and that when read correctly that ZiL becomes Liz?

Maybe I'm crazy, but I was just thinking about it so I figured I would mention it.

The way you're describing it, the book could also be a kind of stencil. I was always wondering why it was made out of such solid material and everything seemed to be etched into it.
So when you're stenciling something, the writing has to be backwards too.
But that means that the L and the Z had to backwards for it to stencil Liz's name correctly. Maybe they have special alien ink that magically twists letters around?

O.K., I must be out of it, but what the he**, you guys are always friendly...what book are you talking about? It sounds like a good read over the summer break while we wait for season 3. What is it called? I would love to get a copy.

sorry, i really tried hard to like tess, but she just keeps trying to take liz's place, and i can't deal with her and max. i really have this feeling she knows a lot more than she's telling, too.

totenhosen

The passage from “Stopping By Woods on a Snowy Evening” reassured Liz that she shouldn’t give up on finding out the truth about Alex’s death. What I’m wondering is if there was another piece of “evidence” that has been overlooked.

This is the poem that follows the one that Liz read aloud…

For Once, Then Something

Others taught me with having knelt at well-curbs
Always wrong to the light, so never seeing
Deeper down in the well than where the water
Gives me back in a shining surface picture
Me myself in the summer heaven godlike
Looking out of a wreath of fern and cloud puffs.
Once, when trying with chin against a well-curb,
I discerned, as I thought, beyond the picture,
Through the picture, a something white, uncertain,
Something more of the depths--and then I lost it.
Water came to rebuke the too clear water.
One drop fell from a fern, and lo, a ripple
Shook whatever it was lay there at bottom,
Blurred it, blotted it out. What was that whiteness?
Truth? A pebble of quartz? For once, then, something.

To me this poem is more reflective of Alex’s state of mind prior to his death. It supports his statements that life is wrong and everything is a lie. And it lends credence to Liz’s statement that nothing is ever what it seems. We also have a reference to looking beyond and through the picture, which reinforces the importance of the torn picture of Alex and Leanna.

As for Liz’s importance to the alien mythology, we have several references to theories that have been discussed at length on this thread.

Once again we have support for the theory that Liz is the one who will be able to see the “evil within” when the time comes to face and defeat their enemies.

In the never-ending symbolism of the stars, we have mention of the summer heavens as being a place you end up when you fail to look below the surface. Here are a couple of the summer constellations and perhaps a few tales that are meant to warn the pod-squad about the dangers of the summer sky…

Aquila: The Eagle carried out the punishment of Prometheus, who gave humankind as the gift of fire. Zeus was furious at this deed, which gave human beings some of the power that had belonged to the gods alone. Anyone else think that their enemies might be a tad upset that the royal 4 are part human (If you were caught in the middle of a war between two alien races, whose side would you choose? The ones that were raised by humans or the ones who weren’t?) and can change/give powers to humans (like Liz and Kyle).

Ara: It was a cosmic battle in which many terrible creatures were released into the world, and there was death and destruction. Is this sounding familiar?

Ophiuchus: The Serpent Wrestler is a symbol of health and healing because of the connection with the serpent; however, let me point out that the power was derived from the blood of Medusa's slain body or a serpent he crushed with his foot. Need I say more?

Serpens: the snake is there too.

And a bunch of “lusty” gods and goddesses chasing each other across the sky. Frankly, it leads me to thinking about promos I don’t want to think about so I think I’ll move on.

We also revisit the symbolism of white. We have a something white, uncertain. Could this mean that peace is uncertain and that the alternate future Liz created in EOTW by separating herself from Max was no better than the one Fmax came from, possibly worse (after all Alex is dead)? So some element that is required to defeat the invaders is still missing from the equation. Like Liz.

We also have two new possible meanings of white, truth and a pebble of quartz. Quartz is a crystal with impurities. And someone or something trying to cover it up.

Well this got to be a little long so I’m not going into the other poem, it was “The Aim was Song”. I didn’t see anything in it that might tie into Roswell, but if you want it posted let me know. Maybe someone with a more literary mind than mine might see something I didn’t.

It is sad when many of the posts (see further above and other threads) digress into expressing nothing more than anger at characters. But then there have been a lot of high emotions lately expressed by our fictional friends as well, so perhaps posters should not be denied the Right To Rant . Anyway, I thought I would drag a post over here I made on another thread where it was ignored, because I am sure of finding a sympathetic audience on this thread. So excuse me while I 'preach to the choir' quote:Originally posted by me, shapeshifter:
...And regarding Liz's anger at Max, Anger is one of the stages of grief. It seems natural that she would project her anger onto Max given the situation and the nature of their relationship. And in part I suppose she's blaiming him for healing her, which resulted in Alex becoming involved. This would combine her guilt stage of grief with the anger part, that is, she feels her life was traded for Alex's. But it is possible that Alex and Isabel might have gotten together anyway. And I still agree with whomever first came up with the idea that Liz is also angry at Future Max for changing the past in which Alex and Isabel danced at her wedding. [/B]Also, when Liz says in HoM, "My life is falling apart," I am reminded of her little sermon to Max in ARCC about not tampering with life and death lest one upset a Greater Plan. She spoke this after TEOTW, so I think her sense of life falling apart is now--with the apparent death of Alex--is based on a deepening feeling of regret for having tampered with fate in order to further Destiny.

You're very perceptive about anger being a stage of grief. Liz has lost her life with Max, AND Alex has lost his life completely. And it seems they're all in danger, and noone else realizes it...
She's got a lot to grieve over; and a lot of anger from that.

Agreed, also, on the Right to Rant. Esp. these last few episodes.

I was taking another look at TLV because as mentioned before the last few episodes seem parallel to last season.
What I noticed was Michael calling Tess Max's new girlfriend. Do you remember when Nicholas said, "Nice to see your genocidal girlfriend again."
She is referred to as Max's "girlfriend" twice but never as his bride. So was that all she ever was, Max's "girlfriend?" He might have broke things off with her when he met Liz or because he saw her true colors. Her actions just don't say wife or bride to me. Knowing Tess she didn't take the brake-up very well and teamed up with the other side to get Max back and to stop the wedding.

Nicholas also called Tess a Charmer.
Charmer- To affect by or as if by a magic spell. Captivate, bewitch or allure.
I think Nicholas knows exactly who Tess is and he seems to know her pretty well. Just like you would a partner in crime.
I decided to post these lyrics from TLV, you can hear this song when Michael talks to Max about Tess being Max's new girlfriend.
We discussed this awhile back but I think it's even more fitting right now.

The song is Voodoo by GodSmack

Candles raise my desire
Why I'm so far away
No more meaning to my life
No more reason to stay
Freezing feeling, Breathe in - Breathe in
I'm coming back again
I'm not the one who's so far away
When I feel the snake bite enter my veins
Never did I wanna be here again
And I don't remember why I came
Hazing clouds rain on my head
Empty thoughts fill my ears
Find my shade by the moon light
Why my thoughts aren't so clear
Demons dreaming
Breathe in - Breathe in
I'm coming back again
Voodoo, I'm not the one
Who's so far away

Notice the candles lyric about raising desire, we wonderd about the candles on the bed, didn't we.
Freezing feeling reminds me of Alex talking about the cold food and his speach about always being cold.
As you read on you will see that the song fits perfectly with what is going on with Max and also what went on with Alex.
Someone is working their Voodoo once again and she is not doing it alone.

Evid

I am sorry I forget who posted this theory about Michael maybe trying to bring Max together with Liz in VLV--but I have to disagree with this theory--I saw this episode in a much DARKER light than most, I saw Michael having bad DREAMS????? and then going to Vegas---the camera pans into the Vegas setting much the way it did into New York where the DUPES were--symbollic???? That is how I took it---3 people experience hair style changes in this episode--Michael, Isabel and Tess----when Liz and Max are talking at the beginning in the hotel suite--Michael says HEY GET LOST(not exact words but.....) Michael is trying to impress on Max the whole episode to LOOSEN UP but is this a good thing---Michael is involved in some pretty shady CHEATING at the CRAPS tables----Isabel is also involved in some very questionable behavior in this episode, and Tess is hanging out with LIZ???? The only bright light in this episode Max seeing a precognition of future events(?) or former future events(?) and perhaps Maria getting to sing----Max ends up giving into Michaels thinking that he should TRUST what he is saying????? I am not sure this was the best advice at all. And things have been deteriorating in Roswell for quite awhile, that was my take on the episode---am I saying that Michael is Rath???? Well maybe but it could simply be that history is repeating itself--and Michael is becoming more like his original Rath self, the same with Isabel(Lonnie), possibly Tess(Ava) and now lately our MAX TOO(ZAN???) I guess we shall see.

Denial & Isolation
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

I really think 98% of CYN was Liz being in stage 1. I think the wall she build was her isolation and the answers she was searching for were her way of denying and not having to cope with the reality of Alex's death. Her instincts were right, but she was following them because it was a way to distance herself from reality. As Buffy said, "I have to do these things, because when I stop [he's] really gone."

At the end, when she finally crys, when the walls fall, when she accepts, that is when the real hard evidence appears. She is no longer grasping at straws, and fumbling in the dark. That is when we see our clear thinking scientist return. And now it is time to find some answers.

Pod Squads flashes did not start until Tess arrived

In Sexual Healing, Liz has flashes of flying through space, and later sees the crash and U.S. soldiers.
a. This points out quite obviously that Liz has a LOT to do with the Pod Squad. She did the same thing as Tess is doing now. Awakening information within Max that he didn't know he had, accept, she showed him information about his journey to Earth, and aspects of him being on Earth. Tess showed him stuff about their planet. Obviously there is something wrong with this picture. Tess has the power to mindwarp, Liz DOESN'T, AND it could also mean that something otherworld-ly is telling Max that his old ties can and WILL be broken. That Earth is where he belongs for now. Also, Max's mother NEVER ONCE said that Max and TEss absolutely had to come together to completel Destiny in 'Destiny'. THis was only assumed because TEss said that the book was proof of their destiny.

Woman: If you are seeing me now, it means that you are alive and well. I take this form because it will be familiar to you, and it will help you to understand what I am about to say. You have lived before. You perished in the conflict that enslaves our planet but your essence was duplicated, cloned, and mixed with human genetic materials so that you might be recreated into human beings. My son, you are the beloved leader of our people. I have sent with you your young bride. My daughter, the man you were betrothed to, and your brother's second-in-command.

Our enemies have come to the Earth. You will know them only by the evil within. Learn enough to use your skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy so that you can come back and free us. And that I may once again hold you both in my arms. I live for that moment. Help us. I love you.

Who was with Max and who helped Max find the one orb in the first place? Liz!!

More on the way.....

Liz had a rash in Sexual Healing from not being with Max.

When Max healed Liz in 'The Pilot Episode', he sees her as a child, Sarah Mclachlan's "Fear" plays. (I don't know if this has any significance)

Here are some quotes from Sexual Healing that I thought proved interesting.

Astronomy Teacher: Ok, people. Hydrogen, oxygen, carbon. Created in the millisecond after the Big Bang. These simple molecules are the basis of all possible life forms in the universe, present and accounted for.....or, os we think. The conceit that alien life forms would be like us in any essential way would be, uh, the wishful thinking of a lonely planet that once believed it was the center of the universe. So, we're going to combine hydrogen, liquid oxygen, and carbon today. Obviously I don't expect any of you to create life here in third period science.

Maria: Michael and I just kissed. Ok, fine. We did a little more than kissing. But, look, I wasn't getting visions, and I didn't have glowing hickeys and rashes and....look, Liz, the bottom line is that we don't know what this is about, all right? Female spiders can, you know, bite off the males' heads after they mate. What if they need someone to mate with to get certain information, you know? And then....Blttt! You know?

Liz: What're you been trying to say? That Max is gonna just bit my head off?

Maria: Uh, no. What I'm saying is, how do you know that he's not like, using you?

Liz: Maria, because it....it....it feels right. I'm sorry. It feels right in a way that nothing has felt right in my life before.

(Significant? Yes I think so. It felt right)

I agree that in CYN Liz is acting out of denial and anger. I can see where her accusation came from because that is exactly what Max and Isabel are worried about. Their reactions made sense too because they are both privately struggling with feelings of guilt. Both want to deny it to themselves, so naturally when Liz brings it up they will get deffensive. I think Liz also sees that their desire for it to not be true may be blinding them to the evidance she sees.

I also think when Micheal leans forward during that conversation shows that he is interested in what Liz is saying. I believe of the 4 aliens, he is most likely to help Liz in her quest.

Now tell me if I'm crazy, but did anyone else think that Alex's behavior at the beginning was a little odd? I mean, yes, they want you to belive that he committed suicide, but still, that speech triggered by the cold food was so sudden, the mood changes so quickly. I almost felt like the speech was just put on for show. Like Alex specifically made it right then just so the delivery guy would hear it.

This may be out there, but I keep thinking shapeshifters and did Alex ever really come back from Sweden? I don't think the writers are going to go in that direction if Colin Hanks is not comming back to the show, but it was something I thought.

Also Sweden must be important or else why that specific picture? When he picks that one up off the shelf, doesn't he bypass a bunch of others hanging from the bottem of the shelf? If he was going to cut his head out of a picture to signify his suicide wouldn't he have chosen a picture taken with all his Roswellian friends, like that one of him and Liz and Maria that Max changes in Blind Date?

When he chose that Swedish picture and then you see the care wreck, my first impression was that he wanted to go or was going back to Sweden.

Guess I'll have to wait for till next week for Liz to find some answers to all the questions.

RW

[Liz is on the roof.]

Max: Liz!!

[She walks to the edge and looks over]

Max: I have to talk to you.

[She lets him in.]

Max: I can't imagine how you must feel right now, I mean, I've thought about telling you a thousand times.

Liz: You have, me??

[Max smiles]

Liz: What?

Max: Sorry, I just, uh, I just keep picturing you in that dress, with the, uh, the cupcakes....on it.

Liz: What?

Max: Forget it, it was a long time ago.

Liz: Oh my God. That's, that's right. I can't believe I actually wore that thing!!

Liz:: I had that dress in kindergarten, I didn't know you until the third grade. Did you like, read my mind or something?

Max: No, I-I don't read minds. When I healed you, I made this, this, I don't know, this connection. And I got this rush of images....And image of that dress flashed into my mind, and, I knew how you felt about it.

Liz: How did I feel about it??

Max: It was the single supreme embarrasment of your life. But your Mom made it for you, she was so proud of it, she'd never made a dress before, so you wore it. For her sake.

[Liz nods in shock]

Max: I've never tried this before, but maybe I can make the connection go the other way. So you can see, you know that, that I'm still me.

[He advances until he's in front of her]

Max: I have to touch you.

[Liz nods.]

[Max puts his hands on both sides of her head.]

Max: No just take deep breaths and try to let your mind blank out.

[Liz gets a rush of images, Max and Isabel walking down the road and the Evans finding them, Max on the first day, and how he sees her. In the halls at school talking to Maria, and since they were in third grade]

VOICE-OVER: I could feel everything he was feeling. I could feel his lonliness. For the first time I was really seeing Max Evans, I saw him as he saw me, and the amazing thing was, in his eyes, I was beautiful.

[Max pulls away]

Max: Did it work?

[Liz nods and Max looks at her embarrased]

Quote from Four Square:
Max: What about the other hand print pictures Valenti told us about? And how many other victims will there be after tonight? ALEX? Maria? Liz!?

(Max knew it then and Liz has had to have known it all along. Liz must have had something to do with Alex's death)

[Liz is on the roof.]

Max: Liz!!

[She walks to the edge and looks over]

Max: I have to talk to you.

[She lets him in.]

Max: I can't imagine how you must feel right now, I mean, I've thought about telling you a thousand times.

Liz: You have, me??

[Max smiles]

Liz: What?

Max: Sorry, I just, uh, I just keep picturing you in that dress, with the, uh, the cupcakes....on it.

Liz: What?

Max: Forget it, it was a long time ago.

Liz: Oh my God. That's, that's right. I can't believe I actually wore that thing!!

Liz:: I had that dress in kindergarten, I didn't know you until the third grade. Did you like, read my mind or something?

Max: No, I-I don't read minds. When I healed you, I made this, this, I don't know, this connection. And I got this rush of images....And image of that dress flashed into my mind, and, I knew how you felt about it.

Liz: How did I feel about it??

Max: It was the single supreme embarrasment of your life. But your Mom made it for you, she was so proud of it, she'd never made a dress before, so you wore it. For her sake.

[Liz nods in shock]

Max: I've never tried this before, but maybe I can make the connection go the other way. So you can see, you know that, that I'm still me.

[He advances until he's in front of her]

Max: I have to touch you.

[Liz nods.]

[Max puts his hands on both sides of her head.]

Max: No just take deep breaths and try to let your mind blank out.

[Liz gets a rush of images, Max and Isabel walking down the road and the Evans finding them, Max on the first day, and how he sees her. In the halls at school talking to Maria, and since they were in third grade]

VOICE-OVER: I could feel everything he was feeling. I could feel his lonliness. For the first time I was really seeing Max Evans, I saw him as he saw me, and the amazing thing was, in his eyes, I was beautiful.

[Max pulls away]

Max: Did it work?

[Liz nods and Max looks at her embarrased]

Quote from Four Square:
Max: What about the other hand print pictures Valenti told us about? And how many other victims will there be after tonight? ALEX? Maria? Liz!?

(Max knew it then and Liz has had to have known it all along. Tess must have had something to do with Alex's death. She never actually denied that there wouldn't be any more victims after Max accused her.)

Tess: Nobody has to get hurt Max.

Max: Sure, until you get what you want.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira."

If you listen to the words of the song, we hear "promises of a long lost friend speak to me of comfort" playing when Max steps off the bus and sees Liz for the first time, or is it the first time?

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira."

I agree that Tess alone probably does not have that kind of power but what about if she has some help from Lonnie, Nicholas, or Khivar?

I can see Liz struggling with whether she should go back and how far she should go. As shapeshifter mentioned Liz appears to be regretting tampering with fate more and more since TEOTW. Would she be torn between going back just far enough to save Alex and stopping FM and Past Liz from ever changing the future?

Liz really expected that only she and Max would be the only ones that would be the ones to pay the price for altering the future because they were the ones making the decision. (Although I think the price Max is paying is higher, which is why I’ve been giving him some slack for recent behavior although I wish he would just snap out of it already. Sometimes ignorance is not bliss, at least Liz understands why things are the way they are. Which is one up on me.) I don’t think Liz thought about the possibility that this would have a ripple effect she couldn’t control. Liz has to be experiencing tremendous guilt that Alex has died as an indirect result of tampering with the future. I think this would feed the fear that going back, to save Alex, would not be enough, because the Skins, Kvar, dupes etc. could kill Alex or Maria or Kyle tomorrow.

So instead should she never let FM convince her to make Max fall out of love with her because she knows that at least Maria, Alex, Max, Iz and Michael will be safe for a few years? However that means Liz would have to make a conscious decision to allow Michael and Iz to die and the world to be taken over, even if it is over a decade into the future. Could she do that and how would Maria respond to Liz’s plan to go back to stop FM if the ultimate result is Michael’s death?

Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a lot easier for Liz to use the granolith for time travel than would be expected (Although I don't think it will happen and wouldn't want it to.) The way Max kept repeating that he always told her that the future was what [Liz] made it made me suspicious that FM left a loop-hole, as in Liz being able to use the granolith to “fix” the present/future by saying the phrase in the chamber, just in case the altered future didn’t turn out as expected.

GraceKel: You still out there, My Have Crazed Pod Bud?
I missed that SNAKING breakfast comment by Sean. Great catch. I guess it could lean either way, but I'm more in the Sean is a good guy club, he is a little suspious but I just don't get bad vibes from him. But I have been wondering what is up with Michael? He almost seems a little to nice, he is setting off alarms in my head that something is just not right.
As for Tess, my alarms have been blaring since Crazy and are only getting louder. Yes, I also noticed that look she gave Liz. What about the fact that she was the one wating for Max's return before the meeting. Everytime she makes contact with him he seems to turn on Liz, if the file was so convincing why didn't Max say what was in it? Oh and I also noticed how bad all the girls looked, other then Tess that is. She had perfect hair and makeup. She must have not read the handbook on how to look at a funeral. Other then waring black she didn't look like she was grieving.
About the Silverhandprint thing when Tess says that Nicholas is always screwing things up. To me this sounded like she was saying, "that idiot can't do anything right, can't he take orders, do I have to do everything myself?" Remember Ava had said on her menu that Tess was a Queen. I took this as not the bride but the Queen of another race. I would go as far as to say that Nich and her could be related, they seem to have a private joke going on between them.

Evid

Maybe. But we haven't seen hide nor hair of Nicolas or Lonnie since "Max in the City" and I really doubt that Khivar is on Earth. If he were aiding Tess like that, he'd almost have to be around constantly to help her keep up the facade so to speak. I just don't think that's the case here.

Tess could be using some sort of pheromone but so far, I've not heard or seen anything to suggest that Tess is manipulating Max with some sort of mindwrap or anything else for that matter. She's steadfastly supported him in anything he has done; a trait I would find quite attractive myself. I would not be surprised to learn that Tess herself was being manipulated by Khivar in some sort of grand scheme in which she herself was merely a pawn.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira."

Evid & GraceKel, I thought Sean said "sneaking" not "snaking."

An interesting puzzle is that Liz is mad at FM for changing the future in such a way that allowed Alex to die, but she doesn't know that FL urged FM to do it. Also, I recall FM having reservations about Liz pretending to sleep w/Kyle.

On Liz and the others Grief process: There are of course many schemas of stages, and I found one that included "blaiming" with "bargaining" and "Guilt" is another commonly included category.

ChadEvans, I see Tess as using her mind warp abilities as what she perceives to be a "tool" to aid Max in his memory retrievals.

I did notice something else. Its probably nothing but here it is.
Ok when Alex lays down on his bed look at then bed spread its different color squares, when Liz is in his room after the funeral its still the same, but then when its just Kyle and Maria in the room if you look closely its a blue and green checkered sheet. I don't think its anything but I thought y'all might like to know.

Going to look for clues tomorrow!

BSR

Look at what has happened since Tess/Max's "connection" - Alex gets killed, the aliens and humans get in a big fight and turn "us against them", now - according to the promos - Isabel and Michael are going to turn against Max too and then they are going to think about going home (where Nicolas says they will be met with a nice public execution). All that since the Tess "memory retrieval" - hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - I think I smell a SOMEONE has ulterior motives - and the only one that seems just thrilled about the way things are - is Tess.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I just thought it was important to note that while there are certain stages common to those who are greiving, it is not always the case that people follow the steps chronologically. It is more likely that your feelings will fluctuate between the stages --Perhaps on a daily, weekly or hourly basis! Another common thing in grieving is to experience more than one of the stages at once.

In any case, I just thought I would clarify this because it was being discussed.

{~}:}

On a lighter note, LOL BehrSkinRug! quote:Originally posted by *BehrSkinRug*:
I think that buying concert tickets in roswell is a bad idea. 2 reasons, #1: Max bought Gomez tickets for him and Liz and we all know what horrible event happened then, and #2 Alex bought Beth Orton tickets and he dies. So nobody else better be buying ticket on the show...

Just got back from my overnight - and I wanted to throw out a Policy for the new book since it seems to be subject of discussion.

Since the new bood was supposed to NOT be released until AFTER the season was over, I would like to consider it spoiler material for now, and refrain from discussing it until the season is over. That will also give some time to read it! Then - after Departure - it will be free game for discussion. I hope this doesn't put anyone's nose out of joint. Since we have so much to discuss right now with the new episode, I believe this is fair to all. If you have a significant problem with this = PM me! I think if the book was meant to be read with the episodes - like the silverhandprint site and the episode summaries - I would be open to discussion of it now, but I believe that it was meant to come after the Season was over, thus, includes spoiler material - and as we all know - NO Spoilers are allowed on this thread - or Roswell board for that matter. THANKS for everyone's cooperation!

Now - back to my reading!

Zero

I hope you all don't mind the clutter; I thought it might be interesting to post the lyrics from the song that was playing in the background during the first frames after Alex returned from Sweden:

It's "King of All the World" by Old 97's

I was in a real bad way
When you turned the power on
And you made me feel for all the world
Like I was the king of all of the world

I was on a window ledge
When you came upon me there
Everything was upside for the moment
Run around the time I had, keep that going

Can't count me out
'Cause I got your number
Oh, you make me feel
Like I'm the king of all of the world

Now I'm on my way up north
All it's gonna do is rain
And I'm gonna wait, go back to the world
Where I was the king of all of the world

Can't count me out
'Cause I got your number
Oh, you make me feel
Like I'm the king of all of the world

I was in a real bad way
When you turned the power on
And you made me feel so right at home
I wonder if I'm ever gonna get back home

Can't count me out
'Cause I got your number
Oh, you make me feel
Like I'm the king of all of the world

If I wander out
Of a picture window
Oh, write below my name
"There goes the king of all of the world"

Zara

The idea that the future that Liz creates in EOTW is no better than the one FMax came from (maybe even worse considering they don't even get the happy interlude) has long intrigued me. Why didn't Liz think of this before? And why didn't she think that what she did would have consequences ... ripples so to speak.

Well, if my boyfriend from the future/future husband showed up and said i had to keep all the good stuff from happening, maybe I wouldn't think of that either. But I bet she'll start thinking that now.

I also think it's pretty reasonable for Liz to be mad at FMax right now. Her entire life has fallen apart because of him. While she knows what she did was right, part of her probably wanted to live a very happy existence, if only for 14 years.

Oh, and white isn't always a positive color! Remember that Max was imprisoned in a WHITE room at the end of season 1. In that case white definitely did not symbolize peace. I guess it could go with truth, but then we have to remember that truth might not always be a good thing.

And I'm sorry, but I just can't be suspicious of Michael in any way shape or form. He's been high on my list of favorite couples for the past couple episodes. He's actually shown some signs of being a sensitive guy before. I say it's about time.

This is a quote from BtVS, but I think it applies to Max and Liz:

"You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other until it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains, children, its blood -- blood screaming inside you to work its will."
-Spike
(it's so true!)

z.a.

I've been thinking about the "snow" in Frost's poem, and the figurative snow we've seen with the death of skins; remember at Christmas ARCC the closing scene also had snow (OR WAS IT... Hmmmm), and last week's promo showed "snow" when the pod squad declared "we can go home."

So what's up there? I keep trying to figure out where this mess all started, when something happened to Alex, what caused it, when (if) a time suck took place...

Of course Wipe Out has lots of possibilities since that's when we found out from Courtney about the multiple time dimensions, but I wonder if we can go back farther...

One of my thoughts is to have another look at Congresswoman Whitaker: her "death" in Surprise was the first time we saw the flakes. (Death encapsulated 'cause we can never be sure...) I also believe that Alex's death had to have something to do with the whole Vilandra issue, so I wonder if we'll see some connection between CW and Lonnie. Many have speculated a connection there...

Do Alex' clues about "the End of the World" mean it might have happened in that episode?

Can we go back farther? I know it would be unthinkable to consider Season 1 and Season 2 might actually relate, but hey! How about Four Square? I feel sure Tess was warping Max when she showed him the pod chamber. It's evening when she takes him out there and then all of a sudden it's hot-sun daytime. There was a huge lapse of time. That's suspicious. What exactly was going on there?

Remember Brody's comment about lapses in time prior to his abduction... That's from Ask Not.

Gee, is it unrealistic for me to think I'll have ALL my nagging questions answered by the end of this season?!!! One can only hope!

Zara

we still don't know too much stuff about tess. she had shown the book to the rest of the posters, i find it highly unlikely that she wouldn't know what the book says. she was w/ nacedo for how many years and he must have helped decipher some exerpts of the book. so she showed mike how to break up rocks and she showed max some retrieval exercises. but what has she shown isabel? i really think that there's something up her sleeve.

granted that the gang was dealing w/ the loss of alex, in there way... but liz is the one that held strong. everyone is out of balance but liz. max is zombie like, mike actually seems to have found "home" (and good for him, i wouldn't change a thing) and isabel seems to be more human (and less the ice queen from last year...and not a bad thing). it's like the role reversal have taken place, in that max was the one on the solid ground in the first season and in the second, the other podsters are the ones trying to ground max to reality. and he's losing more of himself as he spends more time w/ tess. the brief times that he's w/ liz, it's like she's the beacon through the fog.

Anyway, while I was there I saw a version of pilot that had cut scenes! Wow! It's was like watching pilot all over again. Also, a lot of the music was different. It had a darker feeling to the show. Basically, the verison I saw had more Liz and Maria (the bathroom scene after the shooting like it follows in the books) and the Alex - Liz scene in the music rooms was longer too. It was incrediable to watch. The show still ended the same.

Rooney, if you are lurking, please come on and post a better description of these scenes! I know you know them better than me.

since there are quotes going around..:

Max: you were the one that kept me alive. the thought of you. the way your eyes look into mine, your smile,

(liz smiles)

the touch of your skin, your lips.

knowing you has made me,..... human.
whether i die tomorrow or 50 years from now, my destiny is still the same. it's you.
i want to be w/ you, liz.
i love you.

Liz: i love you

(kiss)

despite the fact that max was drugged, he was lucid and clear when he spoke those words to liz. and there was enough touching to keep them connected. max was so sure that his destiny is w/ liz. against whatever curve ball tess was throwing, he knows that liz is his destiny.

max being w/ tess, it's like a fog is rolling in, that max can't see clearly, like a mind warp. i think that the human connection of touching each other, max seems himself. in cyn, when isabel leaves, max makes a move to liz to, almost touch her. tess intercepted, maybe fearing that max touching liz, his mind would clear and realized that maybe max couldn't heal alex, b/c he wasn't himself. that maybe he wasn't touching alex, but thought he was. i really wouldn't put it past tess that the behavior of max is a mind warp.

It's "King of All the World" by Old 97's

I was in a real bad way
When you turned the power on
And you made me feel for all the world
Like I was the king of all of the world...Isabel's powers? If Kvar succeeds in seeing Max dead, then Isabel's husband would be King.
quote:I was on a window ledge
When you came upon me there
Everything was upside for the moment
Run around the time I had, keep that going...'on a window ledge' is a suicide reference
Everyone was 'upset' after CYN
'Time' factors include not having time to leave better clues and/or being caught in a time fold
quote:Can't count me out
'Cause I got your number...
The binary code?
quote:Now I'm on my way up north
All it's gonna do is rain
And I'm gonna wait, go back to the world...'Up north' could be Sweden
'Rain' could be skin debris
He's coming back, maybe?

I agree with your posts--about the LOST TIME in FOUR SQUARE--very significant I think---as well as a whole new memory of events other that what Max previously remembered in the Balance episode talking to Liz.
Also if you notice in the MEET THE DUPES eppy---they are very much surprised to realize that it is 7:30 in the morning at the Convention Center---seems like some loss of time there too--hmmmm?

Oh, I see. The HoM pictorial. I don't know what that is. I can go check CD.com, though.

Hype – “Gripa det dagen” is Swedish – I believe – and someone translated it into “Seize the Day!” I think it is in the article on the silverhandprint. Oh – and welcome!

Eraser Room – the book is the one written as a companion piece to the series to investigate the relationship the shooter – in the Pilot – had to Liz. I believe it is called “Loose Ends.” It is sanctioned by the creators of the show – so should be considered spoiler material until the season is over – given that it was/is scheduled to be released then.

Shapeshifter – excellent post on Liz expressing her anger – and grief! How many times have I apologized to ones I love for lashing out at them when frustrated really at something/one else? I too believe that Liz is full of a jumble of emotions – and she is expressing them the only way she can. And for someone who always needs to be in control – and is highly intelligent with “insider” information – Liz is pursuing leads that she instinctively knows she has to follow.

As far as ranting goes – Rant away, BUT try to use your rant in a positive way – developing a theory, or something. That way – we won’t become a rant-fest. I really like to keep things on a positive note here on this thread, because I want everyone to feel welcome! So – if you rant (which I do occasionally) – please think about what you are saying, and keep it directed towards the show and characters – and NEVER another poster! Thanks! (Gosh I’m feeling like a mom recently! )

Chad – I have to answer this question about why everyone thinks Tess is mindwarping Tess? I can only speak for myself – but Tess has shown that she has done it before – last season – and there are clues that Max is acting like Stepford Max right now when he is with Tess. I also think Mindwarping can be used to implant memories. Like when Max and Iz are mindwrapped in Season 1 they believed what they saw was true and real – unless Tess tells them otherwise – or they are “snapped” out of it to realize that reality is different. But what if the mindwarping is used to implant memories or to implant current events in a seamless way – a way that makes telling was is real and what is not hard to do?? That is what I THINK is going on – though I agree – I doubt she is capable of doing it all the time – and don’t think she is – thus, the confusion Max appears to be suffering at times. Reality and fantasy are colliding at times – often – though if alienated (pun intended) from the rest of the group – especially Liz – Max is kept off-balance and more susceptible to mindwarping. I ALSO THINK that Nicko, Lonnie, Rath and/or someone/thing else will be involved. I don’t think Tess was left the way she was at the end of MITC just for the H@#* of it – I think there was a reason that the before mentioned characters disappeared. I don’t know what happened, but I’m suspicious – and Tess is my primary suspect right now. I hate to think she was messing with Kyle, too – but the Brittiny Spears song seems to imply that – and if she was, she is even more evil than I thought - can you tell I’ve become fond of Kyle this Season?? I could go on – but I hope that explains some of the thoughts on the matter.

ALSO – I still think that Liz got flashes – flashes that could not have come from Max who was in a pod at the time of space travel – IS significant, and if anyone will be able to see the Evil Within – it will be Liz! AND – I don’t think Liz is being mindwarped – and wonder if – like when she ed – she is able to fend off attempts to mindwarp her?? You go Girl!

BTW – Welcome to ALL the newbies! !

Behr Skin Rug – I promise not to buy any concert tickets in Roswell!

Zero
I Shall (try to continue to) Believe!
The Truth Is Out There! (and only the Humans can find it!)

The idea that the future that Liz creates in EOTW is no better than the one FMax came from (maybe even worse considering they don't even get the happy interlude) has long intrigued me. Why didn't Liz think of this before? And why didn't she think that what she did would have consequences ... ripples so to speak.

Zeroautumn, I've been thinking about this lately, and how the new future that Liz created resulted in the premature death of Alex, Isabel leaving Roswell, and Max getting closer to Tess and pushing Liz away, and I thought it would be cool for a Future Liz to come back in time and tell Present Max about his time travel journey, the truth about Liz and Kyle, and how the future Liz created also ended badly.

Hi brainchick—glad to see you enjoy it here! I think everyone is great too!

Happy Anniversary, Zero—did you have fun?

Quote by BehrSkinRug
I think that buying concert tickets in roswell is a bad idea. 2 reasons, #1: Max bought Gomez tickets for him and Liz and we all know what horrible event happened then, and #2 Alex bought Beth Orton tickets and he dies. So nobody else better be buying ticket on the show.

Glad to hear the Kansas City gathering was a success, Qfanny I hope you all had fun?

Happy RosDay All!

I totally agree with most everyone concerning Tess. I just can not seem to trust her! I have also thought that Nacedo may have wanted to return home himself...bad enough to trick the podsters inot returning prematurily. CW wanted to be home badly too. Maybe Nacedo joined forces with the evil side to get home. I still can NOT believe they didn't know the other was an alien. they had to know...didn't they? At silverhandprint when Tess says she can continue wiht the plan without Nacedo (or something like that), it makes me even more suspicious of her!

ARe you all campaigning to keep Roswell?? I send letters weekly, emails often, and just sent Tabasco to the UPN campaign!! Visit the Crashdown or Roswell2 for details! I want that third season!!

~Sheri

(Originally posted on the Crashdown episodes HoM Pictorial

Sean: There's this baby polar bear, right, and he goes up to his mom, and he's like, "am i a real polar bear...Or maybe just a fake polar bear?" She says, "why would you think you're not a real polar bear?"

So, is this some real dialogue, or was Sean just supposed to "talk" and we weren't supposed to hear as in the stunt man's "we've got to get rid of her" line from the Pilot?

Shapeshifter, I always watch with CC on and I do remember this line from the episode. It's the most deep statement from the least deep guy!

The question, I guess, is whether the cc is created from the actual audio or from the final version of the script. Sometimes the cc differs from the aired dialog. Background music is often identified as something different than is really used. Also, there are often passages of dialog in the cc that we don't ever get to hear: Maria's comments about Laurie Dupree at the end of Disturbing Behavior, for instance.

In the case of the Pilot and "we have to get rid of her..." that was NOT in the closed captioning.

My feeling is that Sean's lines were not ad lib at all. Really, if he ad libbed a line like that, so full of irony, it would have been edited out if it leant undue credance to his character... "We can't have him say something like that, it's too revealing..."

Zara

Unfortunately (or fortunately - depending on how you look at it), I've been away for a few days (and still not IN my office) and you guys have gone and posted brilliant thoughts taking up too many pages for me to read in my brief moments of free time, but.. I have one thought before tonight's eppy (well, one for right now).

Doesn't anyone get concerned/confused/intrigued/"emotioned" about the fact that Max DOES get flashes with Liz and DOES NOT "feel anything" when he's kissing ( ) T?? Seems like such an important detail that NO ONE has recognized in Roswell!?!?

I’ve been thinking about the whole Future Max thing – and how it relates to Tess. We know that Tess was necessary to create a complete unit – but what if when Tess left she ultimately joined the Bad Guys – thus, weakening the Podsters and strengthening the Bad Guys. By keeping her in Roswell, not only does it strengthen the podsters, but allows Liz to grow and develop the powers and strengths she needs to and keeps Tess from aligning with the Bad Guys. Also – say Tess is evil as I suspect she is – maybe she has served the purpose she needed to, and if she does align with the Bad Guys, maybe they are being forced to show their “cards” earlier than in scenario 1 – thus, they are not as strong as they would have been and Liz is stronger and more powerful – able to help the Podsters better. So – by keeping your enemies close – Tess – ultimately, Liz, Kyle, Maria and podsters will be able to defeat them. This isn’t as articulate as when I first wrote it – but this is my general idea.

Shaiwon – thanks for the wonderful quote and pictures! This is just one of many places that Max states the importance of Liz to him and how he has ALWAYS known it – not just a passing crush! There is a connection there that goes back to day 1! And I don’t think even Tess will be able to destroy it – though it is going to be interesting to see how this all plays out!

Alexis – Thanks! We had a great time on out anniversary! Went to the Olympic Pennisula - !

Sci Fi Mom – I’ve encouraged everyone to write to the UPN people! Here’s the addresses again:

Dean Valentine
President & CEO
United Paramount Network
11800 Wilshire Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA
90025

Tom Nunan
President, Entertainment
United Paramount Network
11800 Wilshire Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA
90025

Zara – I have a former roommate that used to do closed captioning. I will e-mail her and ask her how they did it. I’ve just recently started watching with Close Caption on – when I re-watch the episode – and it is interesting sometimes!

Steph – I DO think it is significant that only Liz get flashes! And I believe that she gets flashes from a source other than just Max. I’m still convinced that Tic Tac is out there watching over her! Call be nuts – but …

Well – that is a brief summary of what I was writing! I hate it when my computer freezes up!

See you all after tonight’s episode!

Zero
I Shall (try to continue to) Believe!
The Truth Is Out There! :roswell_liv: (And only the Humans can find it!)

And I am encouraged by the fact that they are airing hourly commercials (on the radio) for Roswell tonight. I am not sure if this is a normal WB thing, but I don't remember hearing so many commercials in one day before, especially not for Roswell.

Just thought I would share

I just wanted to check something here:

Liz get flashes or the unchangable past?
Isabel get flashes of the changabel present?

If Liz's powers grow, could Liz also get flashes or preminitions of the changable future, the human future, since the flashes the Liz gets are of humans's future???

Unfortunately (or fortunately - depending on how you look at it), I've been away for a few days (and still not IN my office) and you guys have gone and posted brilliant thoughts taking up too many pages for me to read in my brief moments of free time, but.. I have one thought before tonight's eppy (well, one for right now).

Doesn't anyone get concerned/confused/intrigued/"emotioned" about the fact that Max [b]DOES get flashes with Liz and DOES NOT "feel anything" when he's kissing ( ) T?? Seems like such an important detail that NO ONE has recognized in Roswell!?!?

No, I totally noticed myself. And when he did get that flash from Tess, it was of the face being half-dark, etc..

What if Max's new power can be to ability to see the evil within??? Perhaps when he is alone with Liz, she can help him streghthen that power and Max can help her streghten her power of receiving flashes of the human past?

I noticed something else over the weekend--in the scene where Alex turns to tell Isabel that he loved her too, over his shoulder is a postcard rack. In the top slot is a postcard with some sort of tall building on it. The card is pretty noticeable because it is sticking up at a diagonal out of the rack, sort of pointing toward Alex. Now, in the last scene when Liz is looking at the credit card receipt, she walks past the postcard rack, and that particular card is still in the same slot, but it isn't sticking up anymore. What I'm wondering is, does that building have something to do with Alex? I know there is no possible way to find out what is on the postcard, but it seemed to be rather deliberate placing of that card when Alex is standing by it.

About the Leanna picture, I think Alex was trying to leave a clue. It seems to me that he was trying to tell whoever found it that he was gone, so don't focus on him, but find Leanna instead.

Just a few thoughts I had to share before tonight's episode. Hopefully there will be so much action involving Liz tonight that the Max & Tess junk won't be so upsetting!! (I know, wishful thinking ) Just keep chanting, "It's all a mindwarp, it's all a mindwarp!!"

Also, why have the scene where Sean calls home? It just seems so out of place. Like he wouldn't have told his Aunt where he was going?! Okay, so he was calling to tell them he would be delayed a couple days, but still, we've had episodes where Sean wasn't around, and no one ever wondered where he was, so why now? I think the fact that they even put the scene in there is a huge clue to who he is! I also liked the fact that they made a point to let us know that he called to see how Liz was!

On another note, I've been lurking here forever, and just wanted to say thank you! You guys are amazing, and I really find it refreshing that I can enjoy a show as much as Roswell, and then have a place to go to discuss it! Okay, so I haven't discussed before, but that's just cause you all beat me to the punch!

Thank you again, and Happy Rosday!

Also, that whole polar bear story that Sean told Liz for some reason makes me think that Sean is a good guy. It just seems like he's trying to give her a clue to figure out something on her own.

Quote by shapeshifter
quote:If Kvar succeeds in seeing Max dead, then Isabel's husband would be King.

Incorrect. While Isabel WOULD become queen, her husband would not become King. (Think Queen of England, Philip is not the King. When Queen Elizabeth dies/abdicates then Charles becomes King, even if Philip were still alive.

WR

Welcome SK!

I'm on the fence about Sean - though I think he is a good guy, and may be who he says he is. But I feel that interjecting those scenes were done to help develop Sean's character more in our minds, and show the relationship that is developing between Sean and Liz. I also believe it was deliberate of the writers to have Max call to find out how Liz is - only to find that Sean bet him to the punch! Max should have been on the phone long before that - or at Liz's window as soon as he soothed Iz a bit - but he wasn't, and Sean - who had found out about Alex's death (by chance) - knew immediately to call Liz to see how she was doing. This also means that Sean knows Liz's number by heart or has it written where he can access it easily. I do not find him calling surprising. If Aunt Amy has a "check in" rule - especially after Maria's escapades - Sean is trying to remain on her good side by keeping her appraised of his whereabouts. If his court case got delayed, continued, etc. - which is very possible and reasonable - it would require him to stick around; thus, the phone call was not odd to me at all. Though the "we are moving on" stuff drives me nuts - I totally understand it from a storytelling point of view - and Sean is the "rebound" guy that Liz is using to help her deal with her emotions about letting go of Max. Since Sean is totally aware to what is going on, I don't have a big problem with it. I that scene with Sean had not been there - we would have all been wondering - where is he. On a more practical note - I know the actor that plays Sean was on a recent episode of "Once and Again" - so maybe both these episodes were being shot at the same time, and Roswell released him so he could shoot O&A at the time. I've got to admit that I've always liked this actor (name?) - when he was on Relativity (another JK show) and Felicity (though he played a tragic character) - so my feelings towards Sean my be influenced by that and the fact that he has made Liz smile and laugh again.

I just meant to drop by to read at lunch - and here I am rambling on. SK - I hope you will join in the conversation in the future! It does make for fun watching of Roswell when you come at it from out point of view! BTW - I still think of Sean as the Adam character from the books. If you've read the series, you will know what I'm talking about.

Audrey - I think it is very possible that everyone is Missing something important about Tess! And I find the Polar Bear story very telling - real vs. imaginary! Umm...!

Now I'm definitely off until after tonights show - which I'm excited about and dreading given the previews!

Zero
I Shall (try to continue to) Believe!
The Truth Is Out There! (And only the Humans can find it!)

Sean's comment made me think of a recent philosophy argument we went over in my Phil class. If any of you have heard of Des Cartes and his Meditations then you will recoqnize as well. In his writings he speaks of being able to have "Absolute Certainty". He goes on to explain his Method of Doubt, saying that if there is any doubt what so ever, then judgement MUST be suspended. He then says that as humans we can never have absolute certainty about our own existence (ie. am I a real polar bear?) because we must trust our own senses which can easily be decieved, his example is that a stick looks bent when in water, but mine would have more to do with Tess and Max...In fact, going in that direction, one of des Cartes hypothesis is that we could be dreaming because many times a dream can seem just as real as what we perceive reality to be, so we could in fact be dreaming all the time. His other theory isn't as interesting in context with Roswell land, but to be fair and share it, it is that only an evil demon and I exist, everything is just an illusion that me and the demon come up with. So my answer Shapeshifter is that this works much too well to not be real dialouge.

Now listen: I saw this episode, last Saturday. It's probably the hardest episode we've seen. Hang in there! Take your puke breaks during commercials, and get back in front of the TV! The last half-dozen or so frames of the show are still Important!

I promise I'll have a good, upbeat post waiting for you when you get back on. Really. We're getting a load of info, and I've been able to process some, so there's Good News Tonight! Our Liz, the smallest of small town girls, may be the only one who can save all of them.

And don't forget to send your Tabasco to UPN pronto!

My feeling is that Sean's lines were not ad lib at all.Thanks! So does the polar bear line refer to changed Liz not being quite human? Not that Sean would know this...unless he had a similar experience. I still haven't totally given up my idea that he got out of jail early in exchange for spying on the podsquad & co. But if that turns out to be true, I think his feelings for Liz have long since become genuine. And I think he didn't bargain for it costing Alex's life. quote:Originally posted by SK for life:
Newbie here, with a couple questions… In CYN, in the scene where Max is "trying" to heal Alex, just after that, when Max steps out of the van, the camera pans on everyone, and I swore I saw Michael look up and you can't hear what he said, but it looks like "Thank you". Any insight? Has anyone else noticed that? I just thought it was really odd.

Also, why have the scene where Sean calls home? It just seems so out of place. ...they made a point to let us know that he called to see how Liz was!
I thought Michael was praying--that Brendan would find that an appropriate way to do that scene--but you may be right--I could see Michael not wanting Max to resurect the dead.
I think you've answered you own question about why they had Sean call. It was a little awkward, cinematographically speaking.

WR, I stand corrected. However, if Kvar had a child with Is, and Max was offed, then the child would rule (and perhaps be ruled by Kvar).

Reggie, if I didn't know you better, I'd think you were trying to drop a spoiler.

in my bio class we are learning about genetic engineering and breeding. now I was reading my lil bio book when I came upon the hybridization part. my book states on pg. 207 and 208 of Biology the Web of Life that:

a hybrid is an organism that is bred to have specific traits of both parents.

hybrid vigor is when you breed an organism to be stronger, healthier, all around better. I.E. a mule (cross between a horse and a donkey) and a liger (cross between a tiger and a lion)

most of the time a hybrids are sterile creatures. but not always. but if not sterile they can not mate with their same exact species because of possible deformities.

after reading that my brain was a bit fried so I asked my teacher to translate into teen-ager. and she said:

hybrids are usually sterile. but if they aren't they can't mate with other hybrids because when they have offspring the offspring could come out for the lack of a better phrase "looking like a teen-age mutant ninja turtle"

so ha! Tess can't have a baby b/c she's probably sterile and if not then she can't have one with Max or it'll be all green and slimey and doing kartae!

I LOVE BIOLOGY NOW!!!

~StarDustPixie

that also means that Liz is important to Max b/c SHE can have all his babies! oh I'd love to see that happen!!!

~StarDustPixie

To all you Bostonian RBIers—I’m thinking of having a Finale viewing. Anyone interested? Just PM me. Thanks!

I am anxiously awaiting what someone on the Cherish thread called “Commando Liz”! Go Liz! Be strong!

Okay, I will post this here since it is a poem, Liz POV. I was inspired by the final scene which really affected me.

I hurt

I hurt
I smile
Why couldn’t you stay awhile?

My friend
My chum
I’m speechless, I’m numb

I sting
I cry
I ask the question “Why?”

I giggle
I sob
I know that something’s wrong

I grin
I smirk
Suspicions continue to lurk

I remember
I weep
I have promises to keep

I dream
I seep
I have miles to go before I sleep.

Read you all tomorrow.

I know what you mean about Sean. When he was talking to Michael in CYN, I couldn't help but wonder if he was really at a court. I've been to court before and there is never that many phones ringing in the background.

Spec on Binary Code...What if...???

The Binary Code Alex left for Liz is a code producing a pictorial of the figures on the Alien Book? For instance, Binary Tree Predictive Coding (BTPC) is an efficient compression method for still images. BTPC 2 improves the closest-opposite-pair prediction strategy by adjusting its choice of predictor pels based on local image surface shape. Furthermore, In BTPC 2 three adaptive Huffman coders are used for each band. Coder 0 codes all left siblings, coder 1 is used for "normal" right siblings and coder 3 is used for right siblings whose parent is 0 and whose sibling is a leaf.

Here is an example:

Regular Photo

Compressed Image

Is it just me, or doesn’t the compressed image resemble the images on the Alien Book. And to take the spec further, what if the Binary Code reverses the aliens representations to a photograph and it shows Max/Zan’s soulmate as LIZ????

Also, what if...??? The reason Alex’s headshot was torn off was because using the Binary Code would reveal that Alex was really Kivar????

Barbara
aka/The Behroness d’Roswell

*Metaphysicalgrl dances a little jig, as she LOVES Descartes. *

A few years ago I started taking night classes at a University. In my philosphy class we were, of course, studying Descartes. I wrote my final paper on him (entitled "Doubt and the existence of god: Thoughts from an Atheist" ) Needless to say, my professor got a big ole kick out of me. I happen to have that paper on my computer...and your post, Star-Kissed made me look at it. Here's an excerpt that is extremely relevant! It's interesting to note that each of Descartes Meditations have in some way paralleled some of the bigger philosphical issues on Roswell.

Doubt. According to Descartes it's greatest benefit lies in freeing us from all our preconceived opinions, and providing the easiest route by which the mind may be led away from the senses. Descartes intentions in writing his meditations was to demolish everything completely and start again right from the foundations, using a scientific method. {Hello Liz}. His premise is that once the foundations of a building are undermined, anything built on them collapses of its own accord, so in starting with his basic principles, he is laying the groundwork for truth and absolutism in all his beliefs. {Destiny?} How do we know that we are awake and not sleeping? How do we know that everything we see and feel is not being masterminded by a great deceiver? How can we trust our senses, when our senses sometimes deceive us? {Mindwarp?}

Yeah Descartes!!!!

In his first meditation Descartes attempts to give us reasons which give us possible grounds for doubt about all things, resulting in the impossibility for us to have any further doubts about what we subsequently discover to be true {Liz's life being forever changed by discovering the truth about Max, Michael and Isabelle}. In his second meditation Descartes attempts to find one thing for which to build the rest of his method on, the one thing that is certain and unshakeable (like Max and Liz, for instance). This is where he comes to the conclusion that I am, I exist is necessarily true whenever it is uttered or conceived in his mind. Although Descartes knows that he exists, he has not clearly defined what the "I" is. [It's interesting to note that Max has almost defined his human existence with Liz. Knowing you has made me human. The day I healed you my life began.] The third meditation brings us to the question of whether or not God exists (ARCC). In the fourth meditation Descartes attempts to establish the existence of truth and falsity. In this meditation Descartes reasons that to avoid a mistake and attain truth, he must pay attention to all the things that he perfectly understands and separate them from the rest. {I think this kind of describes Liz's mission to find out the truth}. The sixth meditation attempts to prove the existence of material things, as well as the real distinction between mind and body. This part is interesting - While it appears to Descartes that the mind seems to be united to the body, he recognises that the nature of man as a combination of mind and body is such that is bound to mislead him from time to time. (hmmm...if the upcoming M/T stuff turns out to be a mind-warp, this is very interesting stuff!).

Descartes concludes that in this human life we are often liable to make mistakes about particular things, and we must then acknowledge the weakness of our nature. (maybe this is why the Antarians picked humans? This is the part of the human nature that the aliens need in order to be better leaders on their home planet?)

In any case, that's probably more about Descartes Meditations then you cared to know, but it's just a reminder of how Roswell does touch on deeper philosphical issues....

Just one last thing to add, Reggie thanks for your eternal optimism and encouragement. I'll be looking for your uplifiting posts after tonight's episode airs, and certainly, I'll be looking for clues!

{~}:}

I myth, therefore I am

Spec on Binary Code...What if...???

I love it. I really love it. Someone on another thread mentioned that in an episode of the X-Files, that same binary code was used -- some guy whose sister was abducted by an alien or something, in any case, I don't remember all the details (though I saw this episode) but in the end when this code was printed out over and over again and the printouts were spread across the floor, it was a HUGE PICTURE OF THIS GUYS SISTER.

Now I know some of you watch the X-files and can do this explanation a lot more justice. Help? Anyone?

{~}:}

Now, I am sure many of us took these comments, specifically the bolded one, to mean that Max would never choose to be with anyone else. But what if it really meant that Max physically could not be with anyone else? I bring it up now because no way do I believe that Max will really have sex with Tess. I am going with the mindwarp explanation all the way.

I can't process my thoughts about it just yet, except for two very obvious Tess observations.

1. When the pod squad was walking in the desert and Isabelle broached the subject about Liz perhaps being right - Tess was smiling. S M I L I N G. Didn't like that at all.

2. And was it just me, or when Tess 'happened' upon the observatory because she had a 'feeling' that Max would be there, what did she lay down on the car? Was that a BLANKET????? Methinks it was. Didn't like that at all either.

Will come back later to post once I've had a chance to digest this. Something is definitely 'not right' in Roswell

{~}:}

little clues:
1. maria:i'm missing my exacto knife
who thinks her knife was used to cut alex out of the photo?

2. dpty. hanson:sean you're a real zero
zero as in 0? like in the code?

3.liz:don't play the king card with me max.
did she say card or crap? i forget.

4. anything up with the RED CAB at the end?

5. could liz have more "5"s in her cell phone number?

big clues max is warped by tess:
all the "wake up" lines.
tess smirking at is and michael in the desert with her arm around him

did anyone else think max's massageing her feet was a sign of submission?
he didn't realize he was grabbing liz in the school, does he see that he is warped here?

i'm sure there are others i can't remember.

please,please,please don't say max lost his virginity to tess. aaaaahhhhhhhhh

anyone remember the dupes' reference to alien sex, accept no substitutes. for some reason i thought of this line at teh end. does it signal something in light of tess' pregnancy problems next epi? is she really preggers or just another warp.

duh, how could i forget
leanne is not leanne
leanne is lonnie-looks like the RBIs were right all along

Liz really came to life in this episode. I wonder if the writers of tonights episode was sort of having fun with us. When I say Liz's timeline of Alex's Sweden trip I thought about many a conversation about the entire Roswell canon. Having Liz point out the flaws and inconsistancy was terrific. Although they (TPTB) may not have the characters reading books, they are spending time on the threads. The whole "Leanne is not Leanne" thing reminded me of "Liz is not an alien."

I also liked Michael in this episode and the here with you now part. Isabel (or was it Lonnie) was great too. I love it when she stands up to Max. Max was a total jerk tonight which is why my eyes didn't burn in horror with the Max/Tess scene at the end. (Remember kids, they are supposed to be really married.)

I just Loved Liz in this episode. Just think about the # of times she's sacraficed her relationship with Max to do what is right! What a heronine. I think it's time to update her hero's journey.

And Zero: Get off the fence about Sean. Anyone that sticks up for Liz is good. GraceKel had it called all along with her "S" theory.

Liz really came to life in this episode. I wonder if the writers of tonights episode was sort of having fun with us. When I say Liz's timeline of Alex's Sweden trip I thought about many a conversation about the entire Roswell canon. Having Liz point out the flaws and inconsistancy was terrific. Although they (TPTB) may not have the characters reading books, they are spending time on the threads. The whole "Leanne is not Leanne" thing reminded me of "Liz is not an alien."

I also liked Michael in this episode and the here with you now part. Isabel (or was it Lonnie) was great too. I love it when she stands up to Max. Max was a total jerk tonight which is why my eyes didn't burn in horror with the Max/Tess scene at the end. (Remember kids, they are supposed to be really married.)

I just Loved Liz in this episode. Just think about the # of times she's sacraficed her relationship with Max to do what is right! What a heronine. I think it's time to update her hero's journey.

And Zero: Get off the fence about Sean. Anyone that sticks up for Liz is good. GraceKel had it called all along with her "S" theory.

Sorry - couldnt resist.
Okay - as worthy as the last scene was - could it be any clearer that Max is mindwarped/mind-controlled??? I mean - they play a little "mindwarp" sound - they shine a funky light in his eyes - he tells Isabel he will drag her body back to Roswell if he leaves, he grabs Liz's arm (then looks at his own hand in shock) POOR Max! It seems like he is fighting it at moments - like he KNOWS something is wrong but cant break free of the mind control. Wake Up.
And does anyone still doubt that Tess is evil?? That scene with the aliens where Max went off on Isabel - Tess was SMILING - then Tess walked Max off with her arm oh-so-controllingly around his waist. Max Evans - you are her DESIGN allright.

Evil Tess + Mindwarped Max = no ACTUAL sex.
I did hate that the sex scene seemed "pretty" - but notice that Tess was on top??? She also took her shirt off first and undressed him. Even in the midwarp - Tess was calling all the shots. In Sexual Healing - when Max and Liz were about to have sex - Max knelt down in front of Liz - she "surrendered" to his hands and let him be the leader. Which is a total Eve/Lilith parallel.

I actually LOVED this episode.

There were SO many clues - I just havent had time to process them all.
A few things that jumped out - Michael saysing to Max "I dont want a leader who confuses what he wants to be true with what really is true" - we heard almost that EXACT line from..............NASEDO - back in Skin and Bones.
Then all the talk about dreams and reality and waking up. Max is so lost at this point.
The "reality" Tess and Nasedo tried to shove down the podsters throats - it looks like it is a big ole MINDWARP - meant to trick the kids into going home (and meeting Khivar's executioners) - the "dream" of being human and needing the humans will in fact be the "reality".

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Heck - I dont even think the OBSERVATORY was real.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Liz was amazing in this episode and standing up to max, just what he needs!

It's been away for quite a while with work and illness, but i have tried to keep up by printing out the threads. I must say that I have been very impressed with the great ideas that have been introduced. You guys are all awesome.

Another sad eppy, but there was a lot in it. One thing I noticed was the continued dialog between Tess and Max about dreaming and if he was living the dream or if the other world was a dream. I really think Tess gave us a big clue when she told him that, "This is the dream" meaning the human life. That leads right into the mindwarped idea. The way that Max has handled himself since ARCC has really been strange. He has been as if in a fog and has made a lot of bad decisions that have pulled him away from Liz, Iz and even Michael. Is this what happened on his planet? Is Tess really the "bride" and was the "bride" the one he was listening to that gave him all the bad advice? Is she doing it again by mindwarping him? Any thoughts???

Hybrids shouldn't mate and there is something wrong, way wrong...

I shall always believe.................

Someone give that person a Max-shaped cookie! When Max touched Liz in this episode, even though it was out of anger ... it did clear his mind! He realized what he was doing and got this look of horror on his face.

Now, whether it broke him out of a mindwarp, or whether there was no mindwarp and he just realized something was wrong because he was handling LIZ in an angry manner ... i don't know.

I have been ambivalent about the mind warp idea. I don't really want to believe that Tess is evil, and I was even starting to kind of like her in a few of the episodes (when she was with Kyle). But this episode made me VERY suspicious of her.

One, for the reason I stated above ... Max did snap out of it when he touched Liz.

Two, Tess was always there, always lurking. It made my stomach curdle.

Three, right after that scene where Max grabbed Liz, he was sitting alone, and I'm pretty sure he was wondering what was going on that he could grab Liz like that. And then who came up and made him forget about it for the REST OF THE EPISODE. You all saw it, fellow Dreamers and RBIers. Tess.

Even I can only be pushed so far before i know something's up.

I await the next episode, and your theories with impatience.

z.a.

*Dreamer and part-time Candy Girl*

I agree about the non-mating - BlueCornMoon (who hasnt been around in a while) was explaning the science behind hybrids back in December and she explained then that hybrids could not mate.

How DORKY is the alien baby promo - BTW - a GLOWING TUMMY???? That is just tooooooo cheesy. PLUS - Max the saint has CONDOMS IN HIS BACK POCKET.
Remember - this was established in EOTW - if real Max had real sex - he carries protection. I always wondered why they made such a point to mention the condoms in EOTW.......maybe as a clue that the alien baby is imaginary........

Oh - another thing - I am pretty sure Tess is wearing the same clothes in both observatory scenes - either she doesnt change clothes OR the observatory stuff is a lomg mindwarp.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

But Oh Liz and Max. I wanted to boo-hiss Sean off the screen, but actually kind of liked him this episode. For the first time!

I can't believe Max though. Now we know he can be a little controlling but come on! This was Max to the Max!! How could he talk to the women he really loves like that?? Notice that Michael picked up on it.

Anyways can't wait for next week. Though I hate what is happening to my favorite couple, I think we finally have a compelling story line.

Other things I noticed, the references to "dreams" and being "real" were mentioned a number of times. Also the term "wake up" was mentioned a couple of times, I think these are definite clues as to what is going on.

Max saying "Earth seems so real"
Tess convincing him that Earth is a "dream" and their home is what's "real"

Those are most certainly clues.

Liz's - Wearing a torquoise necklace again. I forgot what was discovered about torqouise I'll have to check out the previous thread, but it was directly related to the heros journey.

Liz told Max not to pull the "King Card" on her.
She also told him to "wake up"

Max stated that he "didn't know what's going on anymore. I thought I do, but I don't" Obviously another clue to what's happening to him.

Liz's cell number (505)555-0125, a lot of fives there

And did anyone else notice how strange the scene was in the hallway when Max grabbed Liz's arm. It seemed as if he didn't even realize he was doing it. And then the way the camera panned back and forth between them, very strange. Any thoughts??

took the words right out of my mouth.

it's like max is a puppet. i hated how max was treating liz and i have never seen max grab liz so cruelly!! i wish she bopped him in the nose. but just max touching liz, he realized that he had physically hurt her. it's good to see that he looked strickened afterwards... i think that maybe spending more than a 1-2 mins w/ liz would probably help max snap out of it. and maybe touch each other skin-to-skin, that he just might snap out of it.

liz was great. the woman on a mission. she's definitely scratched off another layer to the mystery. i can't help but think about that computer friend of alex said.. that w/o an application, the binary codes are useless. now.. who has the application? leanne, perhaps? and who would snoop on his computer that alex would have a locked file? unless it's the clue for liz.

and who are the olsens? hey... OLSENS...if you were to change the O to A and the first S to I it would spell.... ALIENS.

hm...

Besides the fact that my favorite character was MIA.... for no real apparent reason...that really concerned me.

However I saw this from one of the Hybrid Chronicles, "Disturbing Behavior", I think (not sure)

The alien in on the car made me think of Alex's car wreck...and Liz's belief that the aliens are all mixed up within the mess.

Tracy

in my bio class we are learning about genetic engineering and breeding. now I was reading my lil bio book when I came upon the hybridization part. my book states on pg. 207 and 208 of Biology the Web of Life that:

a hybrid is an organism that is bred to have specific traits of both parents.

hybrid vigor is when you breed an organism to be stronger, healthier, all around better. I.E. a mule (cross between a horse and a donkey) and a liger (cross between a tiger and a lion)

most of the time a hybrids are sterile creatures. but not always. but if not sterile they can not mate with their same exact species because of possible deformities.

after reading that my brain was a bit fried so I asked my teacher to translate into teen-ager. and she said:

hybrids are usually sterile. but if they aren't they can't mate with other hybrids because when they have offspring the offspring could come out for the lack of a better phrase "looking like a teen-age mutant ninja turtle"

so ha! Tess can't have a baby b/c she's probably sterile and if not then she can't have one with Max or it'll be all green and slimey and doing kartae!

I LOVE BIOLOGY NOW!!!

~StarDustPixie

HOLY CRAP!!!! You're right! I took Honors Bio in hs 3 years ago and I just remembered. And about Liz being able to bear his children I just hope Liz realizes this in next weeks episode cuz I was soooo not looking forward to her reaction when she finds out about T***'s "supposed" preg*****. ick. I sure hope the writers kept this in mind and incorporate, but who knows

Roxy

Tracy

only liz would have thought of using a time line to chart where alex should have gone.

numbers: 1,2,50 any takers?

The Tess Thing:
Did everyone see our favorite constellation? Yes, that's right, the V. Now we know at least part of what's going on. Remember last year when Max was going with Liz? They were exchanging memories ("flashes")? Max and Tess have been doing that. Make-out sessions, strange feelings, the whole thing. I don't think Max has been "mind warped" by Tess, but "body warped" by the V constellation and that nasty Alien Mating Season. Oh, I'm sure that Tess knew about it, and probably is a willing participant, but I don't think she's the power behind it. She doesn't need to be - all she has to do is be at the right place at the right time, and surf the wave. This also explains Michael being "the Perfect Boyfriend", and may explain in part Isabel's increased (shall we say) accessability. Note: Yes, it seems someone has been watching Season 1.

The Michael Thing:
How bogus is that? Michael promises to be around, until he leaves. Well, duh. At least Tess intends to be around longer than that. Say what you will about her, she's not going to give Max any "abandonment issues".

The Max Thing:
OK, I'm beginning to think Kivar has a point. If King Max was anything like this guy, he needed to be killed. He was like this at the beginning of this season, too, wasn't he? New vocabulary words: autocrat, megalomania. But it gets better! I think we are beginning to see the same dynamic that blew things apart on Twilo. Max is making Bad decisions: he's hiding his head in the sand from the possibility that the Group may be under attack, he's ignoring the advice and wishes of everyone except Tess, who just tells him what he wants to hear. (Bad advice, as advertised!)

Michael is being loyal to Max, doing his dirty work when he should be stopping Max. Just as Courtney was saying: things would be better if Michael was in charge. He'd at least look into Alex's death; and knows how NOT to get caught. Dosn't Liz ever watch TV?

Isabel is now almost in open rebellion. If Max has any enemies, she would be well advised to work with them. Max is now a threat to her, and she needs to defend herself.

The Leadership Thing
We may be beginning to see how leaders are treated on Twilo. Tess worships Max. Courtney worshiped Michael. Isabel "loved" Kivar. Kivar's followers all seem to hold him in unnaturally high regard; and to despise King Max to an unnatural degree. Probably vice versa, if Max's followers are still fighting after fifty years. It seems that Twilo's leaders are the objects of "cults of personallity". These leaders seem to act like an "alpha male", as our simian cousins would say, and they treat others that way. Maybe the podsters were brought here because we've outgrown that? Ed Harding was saying that emotions created problems. Maybe this is what he was referring to?

The Liz Thing
Liz may be the only one who can save the podsters. Liz is not an alien! She is not susceptable to the alien mating season, when she's not with an alien. She is also not a subject of King Max! She has (usually) the brains to do what needs to be done, and the grit to carry it through. So: Alex's trip was set up by the guidance office? How could they fail to see a bogus host address? That needs checked up on, and if Liz could get Isabel to dreamwalk the guidence councilor, something interesting might be found. Without getting anyone arrested, too.

Chads:
I found 3. First, it's nighttime and the sky is clear. Why isn't the Observitory working?
Second, Why is Liz so helpless to get into the school? If there are security guards, why doesn't she have a plan to avoid them, and for if they are caught?
Third, doesn't Liz need a passport and/or visa to visit Sweden? Wouldn't her parents be involved, since she's a minor? And how fast can you get that paperwork done, anyway?

If I wasn't already convinced that all this is some sort of manipulation, I am now. That was soooooo not our Max. The REAL Max would not treat the 2 most important women in his life so cruelly.grrrrrr

And T***, I don't know if you guys want me to open this can of worms. I can no longer stand her. She has got to go. I never trusted her, but this is the last straw. First of all, I couldn't even watch the last 5 minutes for fear I would go blind. She just...grrrrrrr She is pure the way she took advantage of Max is unforgiveable. I can forgive Max slightly just cuz it's not really him and he's is vulnerable. But T***! She is such a vulture, why was it that she was always conviniently there? Right place, right time. YEAH, I'm sure my friend thought that she probably has some sort of beacon or tracking divice on him Not to mention that she REALLY took advantage of him. Manipulation or not, she could see how upset and vulnerable he was. She got him at his weakest moment!! It reminded me of when a guy gets a girl drunk and takes advantage of her! She not only used him but she allowed herself to be used too. She is so desperate to believ that he could love her that it didn't occur to her that what was "done" was not out of love, passion, or anything but weakness and desperation. Manipulation or NOT. I believe NOT, but still. WTF?!! And the way she was smirking when she and Max walked away from Iz and Michael. You can just tell that she is more than happy to isolate him so she can dive right in when the opportunity arises.grrrrr.

::deep breaths:: the only way I managed to get thru it was to watch it from the RBI POV, not the dreamer POV. I was literally getting nauseous before the eppy even aired. I didn't not however watch the last 5 minutes. And I have no intention to do so anytime in the future. Unless by some miracle. Or if we get something to compare it to, like M/L maybe

I cant' wait for Liz to be vindicated. Everyone will grovel and thank her and never doubt her again. I hope.

sorry for the rant everyone.

Roxy

Um, so you DID NOT see the last five minutes? You missed Liz's phone call? The V? I told you...

Quick? Nah. I wrote my post with Notepad, offline, at my leisure. Then it was just Sellect All, Copy, and Paste into the posting form. Simple, and if FF eats my post, I can do it again, and again, and again...

Liz really came to life in this episode. I wonder if the writers of tonights episode was sort of having fun with us. When I say Liz's timeline of Alex's Sweden trip I thought about many a conversation about the entire Roswell canon. Having Liz point out the flaws and inconsistancy was terrific. Although they (TPTB) may not have the characters reading books, they are spending time on the threads. The whole "Leanne is not Leanne" thing reminded me of "Liz is not an alien."

I also liked Michael in this episode and the here with you now part. Isabel (or was it Lonnie) was great too. I love it when she stands up to Max. Max was a total jerk tonight which is why my eyes didn't burn in horror with the Max/Tess scene at the end. (Remember kids, they are supposed to be really married.)

I just Loved Liz in this episode. Just think about the # of times she's sacraficed her relationship with Max to do what is right! What a heronine. I think it's time to update her hero's journey.

And Zero: Get off the fence about Sean. Anyone that sticks up for Liz is good. GraceKel had it called all along with her "S" theory.

Qfanny The one thing that had me on the floor laughing was when Maria referred to the aliens - as the PODSTERS.

Now, what I wanted to know -- did we get this expression from them, or did they get it from us?

I think they got it from us. I don't remember it being used on the show. Anyone?

{~}:}

Thats hilarious Jess !! I don't have the show taped to see Alex's covers ...grrr....

I am sooo upset at this Max. What happened to all this you make your own destiny talk? What kind of making your own destiny is Liz doing? And I am kind of glad she has Sean to tell you the truth. Max is a right now.

I am spoiled so I won't comment a lot. My favorite part being T showing Max something on the telescope AS IF she could even find that on her own . OK sorry ...

quote:

The Max Thing:
OK, I'm beginning to think Kivar has a point. If King Max was anything like this guy, he needed to be killed.

Reggie ! Yikes ?

quote:

The Liz Thing
Liz may be the only one who can save the podsters. Liz is not an alien! She is not susceptable to the alien mating season, when she's not with an alien. She is also not a subject of King Max! She has (usually) the brains to do what needs to be done, and the grit to carry it through.

YEAH!

quote:Chads:
Third, doesn't Liz need a passport and/or visa to visit Sweden? Wouldn't her parents be involved, since she's a minor? And how fast can you get that paperwork done, anyway?

It can get done pretty quickly if you need it , but maybe she already had a passport and a visa can get done in a day. Maybe she was going to stop in NYC or some embassy and get it done in a day .

About the binary code. If it's true that it needs an application to work - a computer application, what is the possibility that somehow that Leanna is not Leanna thing is actually an application that when combined with the binary code....produces some answers?

Anybody savy in computers want to tackle that one? I have this gut feeling that Leanna is Not Leanna is connected to that binary code. I think it's the application that works with the binary code. I also didn't think Tess was evil...well, enough said about that...

{~}:}

Quick? Nah. I wrote my post with Notepad, offline, at my leisure. Then it was just Sellect All, Copy, and Paste into the posting form. Simple, and if FF eats my post, I can do it again, and again, and again...

Well, actually I listened to it, but I covered my eyes. I kept peeking though cuz I did see and listen when Liz got the phone call. I was like WOW! "Girl, you're right on track." But what V? If I have to see it in between that scene with Max and T*** then I'd rather not until I can have something good to get the nasty taste out of my mouth, like the season finaly?

Roxy

All I got to say is "YOU GO GIRL!" to both Liz and Iz! Liz was awesome! And I totally felt for Iz, and absolutely loved it when she waved that guy across the hall!

Mikey G was the only redeeming character in some ways tonight. I think both Mikey G and Iz will end up helping Liz! Oh, and Sean was pretty cool too! The kiss between Liz and Sean did not bug me at all, cause it was definitely a Thank You kiss, and nothing more.

Okay - now I have to mull this episode over, and find time to rewatch it a few times. I'm sure it is loaded with clues - and I know there are lots of dates to add to the timeline! I just don't know if I can recover from that last scene with that song - which I used to love - playing in the back-ground! Tess seemed to just show up so conveniently throughout the episode! Oh Please - say it ain't true!

Okay - I'm will be strong! I won't stop watching - only because I adore Liz and have to find out what the H@#* is happening, and can't NOT believe Max let his "power source" lead him to Tess! (I can't get enough of that little character tonight!) Buy - if Zan on the home planet was like Max was acting tonight - no wonder he was overthrown!

Off to read other's thought and hoping they might cheer me up a bit - thouhg that is unlikely right now!

Zero
I Shall (try to continue to) Believe!
The Truth Is Out There! (and only Liz can find it!)

peej, That's an interesting theory on the V being a portent of evil.

quote:Originally posted by shaiwon72:
...hey... OLSENS...if you were to change the O to A and the first S to I it would spell.... ALIENS...A bit of a stretch, but when the guy from Sweden said the building was torn down in 1994, I (who never talk to my television) yelled at the tv: Time Warp! I was very frustrated when Liz concluded that he never went to Sweden. This is the first time I've really mistrusted her conclusion.

Could Leanna be Serena? "Leanna" is sort of an anagram for "alien." Right, Qfanny?
quote:Originally posted by shaiwon72:
and just how does tess know when max is alone? zoning on mind waves? she seems to keep popping up...Um, can we spell S-T-A-L-K-E-R ?
quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
...The Michael Thing:
How bogus is that? Michael promises to be around, until he leaves...Reg, agreed with the rest of your post, but when Michael said that, I think he meant that some day he would die--you know, being in a human body and all. But he didn't but it into words because Maria was too sensitive to that subject at that moment.
quote:Originally posted by sunrise:
...Not to mention that she REALLY took advantage of him. ...Yes, Tess did take advantage of the situation. But she is an infatuated teenage girl. And Isabel and Courtney weren't much different. Maybe alien girls have a tendency to be like that. Not saying it's okay, but that it could be a weakness.
quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
...Quick? Nah. I wrote my post with Notepad, offline, at my leisure...Reggie flexes his posting muscles for all the female posters to see. Just teasing, bro.
quote:Originally posted by Metaphysicalgrl:
Qfanny The one thing that had me on the floor laughing was when Maria referred to the aliens - as the PODSTERS.

Now, what I wanted to know -- did we get this expression from them, or did they get it from us?You know, Meta, I think I made it up. But I wouldn't swear to it. And it could have spontaneously spawned itself around the globe. Think of the beepers at the end of Season One, and then imagine a dozen or so posters typing "podsters" for the first time all at once. Kind of like that dude that almost beat Alexander Graham Bell to the patent office with the telephone invention.

Okay, about Sean. When the security guard shined the light on them, I felt Sooo bad for him. But then when he got off with community service, well, yeah, he's a white guy, but I just don't think parole violation works that way. I'm still holding on to my theory that he got off early in the first place to spy on the p-o-d-s-t-e-r-s.

P.S. I grew up with a bulimic in the house, so nobody's allowed to throw up in my own home now, and I won't use that emoticon, but I share your sentiments re the Tess/Max love scene.

ZeroAutumn--I LOVE that Spike quote. It's so perfect and oh, so true. And I agree with you. I don't want Tess to be evil.

Why? BECAUSE IT NEGATES THE WHOLE EOTW SENARIO! Sorry to yell, but I'm serious. I'm a dreamer, I love M/L together. I honestly don't want them with anyone else. But I also look for a good story line. And killing Tess isn't because of how important they made her presence in EOTW. Liz's sacrifice was too important and too powerful to negate in any way other then Tess accepting that Max is not who she wants and moves on. The chance of anything happening is too great. Unless Liz turns out to be the True Queen and Tess is a decoy or a plant.

To be perfectly honest, I thought that I would be far more upset with the episode then I was. Just watching the scenes between Max and Liz when he's trying to get her into the Jeep and in the school and comparing them with Max and Tess in the observatory and at the Valenti's house. I'm not worried. Plus they did give us a minor hint.

Did you notice the two times that Tess came up to Max with curly hair they played just a soft hint of ominous music? I hope that I'm right and it's not really Tess but Ava wanting Zan back so much that she'll do anything to get him or working for Nicholas or Kivar or someone to go home with Max/Zan.

I did notice that Tess brought a blanket with her to the observatory, rather fishy to me, I'm not sure what to make of it yet.

Also the scene with the podsters out in the desert was rather strange. Tess laughed more than smiled. Something's up. I just not sure what yet.

Reggie--to play 's advocate to your theory that Liz is not an alien...Liz's kiss to Sean. You could take that as a physical need for her to be close to someone in some way, shape or form. She did not really touch anyone else in the entire episode but Sean. Maybe she has the drive as well, but her's is weaker for some reason or else her determination to figure out Alex's death takes presadence over her sex drive. Just a thought.

Isabel is now almost in open rebellion. If Max has any enemies, she would be well advised to work with them. Max is now a threat to her, and she needs to defend herself.

I also think Max is probably acting the same as he was on his planet. Things seem to be going along the same lines: Breakdown of the 4, M/T together, and Izabel rebelling. This is how the whole Vilandra thing probably started which eventually led to the end of their previous lives.

Max needs to get a clue and stop listening to T*** before history repeats itself.

I know you are probably wondering what I'm laughing at, but I can't really say cuz I'm not really sure except that I'm really enjoying your theories. Yet there is still so much stuff we don't know and I'm not especially looking forward to the next 2 episodes.

On a side note, I read a LOT of fanfic, it's the only way I've managed to get through most of this season. But I've been thinking how it would be funny if someone who made a story up actually ends up with them onto something they never would have expected to happen on the show as part of a/the plot.

Ok, this was really OT and not much to do with this thread but I just wanted to share with you. I still believe that our Lady Liz (as well as the Liz Mythers) will be vindicated in the end. Don't ask me how I know, I've just had this feeling for some time. NEways...

Roxy

From what I have read, no one is really acting like themselves.

quote:
Tess says on silverhandprint that her powers were getting really strong - I think she has alot more mind control ability than she appears to have - I also think she is not working alone at this point.

Perhaps. As powerful as she might be I certainly don't think she can maintain her power 24/7. Katims would be really pulling our strings if that was the case but at the same time, really hurting his show since it's driven off the viewers somewhat.
quote:
Look at what has happened since Tess/Max's "connection" - Alex gets killed, the aliens and humans get in a big fight and turn "us against them", now - according to the promos - Isabel and Michael are going to turn against Max too and then they are going to think about going home (where Nicolas says they will be met with a nice public execution). All that since the Tess "memory retrieval"

I think this Us vs Them thing was inevitable. It's unfortunate that it was brought about by these circumstances but I couldn't see all of them staying on one side for long. If Tess is manipulating them, she's not introducing anything that wasn't already there.
quote:
- hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - I think I smell a SOMEONE has ulterior motives - and the only one that seems just thrilled about the way things are - is Tess.

Of course she is. She's getting to be with Max as she has always wanted. It will be interesting to see how things turn out.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira."

The Tess Thing:
Did everyone see our favorite constellation? Yes, that's right, the V. Now we know at least part of what's going on. Remember last year when Max was going with Liz? They were exchanging memories ("flashes")? Max and Tess have been doing that. Make-out sessions, strange feelings, the whole thing. I don't think Max has been "mind warped" by Tess, but "body warped" by the V constellation and that nasty Alien Mating Season. Oh, I'm sure that Tess knew about it, and probably is a willing participant, but I don't think she's the power behind it. She doesn't need to be - all she has to do is be at the right place at the right time, and surf the wave.[/B]

I totally disagree. I think the V constellation means that whoever is pulling the strings has a very limited time frame to work in. Max and Liz would be entering their "cycle" - the aliens - being hybrids - are designed to mate with HUMANS. If there IS a "mating cycle" it is a mating with HUMANS cycle. Tess know this, whoever is helping her knows this. They have to get Max OFF THE PLANET NOW.

Last year - Michael and Maria were not effected by the V constellation - in fact Michael and Isabel were having mindwarps - ooops I mean - dreams. None of that this year. Reggie - what does Tess have to do to convince you she is evil ??? Spin her head around and say "Max Evans - you are MY PREY???"

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

"I THE STUD" - could this be an anagram or something, or is it just "cute"?
Did anyone else get chills when "Leanna is not Leanna" went zipping across the screen?? I think I actually got teary eyed just because I was so excited that all the RBIers were right on that one!
Liz wore two different necklaces during the ep - one looked turquoise the other looked either jade or turquoise
WHO took Maria's exacto knife? You know that wasn't just a random statement!!
When the podsters were done talking on the highway and Max and Tess were walking away, I swear that Tess looked back and was smirking (very sinister smile, if anything).
WTF was up with the foot massage?? Even my husband had a violent reaction to that and claims he has lost all respect for Max (this from a guy who says he doesn't even pay attention to the show!). I mean, a foot massage?? Give me a break!
In the DeLuca house, there are two lamp fixtures that have upside down horseshoes - doesn't everyone know that you never hang a horseshoe upside down?? It's bad luck (the good luck will "pour" out of the horseshoe if upside down).
Sean is totally acting as the protector and is really turning out to be a stand-up guy. I actually didn't mind the kiss in this ep.
Why is Max hiding the division in the group from Sheriff Valenti? It seemed as if Valenti didn't have a clue that Max and Liz were on the outs
The absolute best scene was when Liz said to Max, "Let go of me". His face was that of utter shock - like he was appalled at his own behavior. The real Max finally showed up for a split second (facial expression totally changed). A big fat Holy Cow when watching that one!
Leanna was spelled incorrectly in Liz's notes (hanging on the wall). It said "Alex and Leana". Screw up by props people or what? It seems odd to spell it wrong after looking at that computer file so much.
Was that Malamud that Isabel threw against the lockers (the guy that said she looked sexy when she is pissed)? Why is he all of a sudden in these new eps?
How does Max plan on leading a group that resents him? He has never ever treated Isabel so badly before - threatening her like that? That was SO not Max - any blind person could see that! Stepford Max was out in full force
Liz referred to Max playing the "king card"
Liz drove off in Red Cab #3N06. Liz had $2053.78 in her account, and her cell phone number is 505-555-0125
Funny how Max is "waking up" when the V constellation is in alignment
Convenient that Tess shows up at the observatory with a sleeping bag/blanket - she had to have been plotting and following Max.
Could the telescope at the end of the show be more of an obvious phallic symbol?? We already got the point!
This was the first ep in which Max and Tess held hands (actually she held his when she grabbed it out of his jeans pocket).

About the promo for next week, (1) the baby's hand was entirely TOO big for that stage of pregnancy! She would be at the 8 or 9 month stage for the hand to be that big, and (2) could Max have been thrown back because he saw the evil within his child or because he finally saw the evil within Tess?

I was thinking about all the CHESS CLUB posters that have been shown since HOM and I realized that in chess - the QUEEN is the only piece that can MOOVE FREELY to PROTECT THE KING.
Everyone is after the king - but the queen is the most powerful piece.
And the queen isnt always with the hive......

LIZ IS THE TRUE QUEEN!!!
Maybe that the point of only referring to Tess as the "bride" - Max is the once and future king and LIZ is the once and future QUEEN.

Also - more evidence that the observatory scenes were a mindwarp:

The scene begins by showing the SHADOWS of Max and Tess.
A shadow is "the essence of unreal things".
Also Tess has different hair in the observatory scenes than she has in the rest of the episode. It is straight in all the other scenes but really short and curly in the observatory scenes.

And - I dont think Tess wants to be with Max - I think she just wants to trick him into going home where he will get killed. Mostly - I think she just wants to go home & has reason to believe she will be welcome there.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

"I THE STUD" - could this be an anagram or something, or is it just "cute"?

******************************************
IF the podsters truly have to mate with humans to produce offspring (and many threads back when I found the "ZIL" in the destiny book I commented that the pregnancy pictures did NOT look like the podsters with each other) - then perhaps Alex was meant to be Khivar's "stud" - fathering a child for him.
I think Khivar was originally trying to USE Alex (hence the Sweden/Leanna mindwarp)

WTF was up with the foot massage?? Even my husband had a violent reaction to that and claims he has lost all respect for Max (this from a guy who says he doesn't even pay attention to the show!). I mean, a foot massage?? Give me a break!

********************************************
It once again points to Tess as Lilith (who - according to legend wanted to be on top when she and Adam had sex) - the way I read this scene was that Tess THOUGHT she had Max under mind control and was "playing with him" by making him massage her feet. Then she asks about the kiss and is SHOCKED to hear Max say that he is "SCARED TO BE WITH HER".
Of course next thing we hear - Max has realized it is just his alien monster within he is scared of - yeah - whatever. Tess now knows where he is still vunerable and struggling to throw off the mind control and so she can just manipulate him more successfully.
I really got the impression that Max was struggling to throw off the mind control. Especially in his scenes with Liz and when Micheal talked to him in the park. When a good guy repeated a phrase that had come from Nasedo/Tess - you could see it trigger something in Stepford Max for a moment - when Liz said "wake up" and when Micheal repeated Nasedo's line about "not confusing what you want to be true with what really is true" - rewatch and look at Max's facial expression - great acting by JB!
*******************************************

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

It was implied before that Max (Zan) was not a good leader on his planet. That there were reasons that there was a rebellion. It seems history is repeating itself.

People, and Isabel herself balked at the fact that Vilandra had betrayed Max. But now we see that she might have had good reasons. Likewise for people like Courtney who wanted Michael to lead, not Max. Michael is acting much more rational, and is LEADING, which is more than I can say for Max.

So saying that, here's a little list for you all.

*Reasons Max and Tess should NOT be together*

1.) Tess is not concerned with the safety of her race, the human race, or even her friends. She is only concerned about making sure she stays with Max.

Liz is a true Queen. Her first priority was everyone's safety, and then her own happiness. (EOTW). Right now her first priority is the truth which is important to everyone's safety!

2.) What Max and Tess have is not a partnership. She does not help him figure out how to solve his problems ... she just butters him up and tells him what he wants to hear (or what she thinks he should hear).

What Max and Liz had (have) THAT'S a partnership. They can discuss with each other, and Liz helps Max become a better leader by pointing out when he might be wrong and giving him advice.

It seems like Tess has Max up on this pedastal just because he was the King. But he's not perfect and he's not always going to be right. While she should support him, there is such a thing as being ... overly supportive.

3.) Hybrids should not mate with hybrids. Period.

4.) She tries to get him to forget his problems. That trip to the observitory, talking about where their relationship is right now? There in the middle of a major crisis right now! If they don't believe that Alex was murdered, can't they at least see that the pod squad is being divided right down the middle?

A leader can't be distracted from the crisis before he's dealt with it! Tess wasn't trying to relax him so he could better deal with the problems, she was unconcerned with the problems and the dangers they might be in and only concerned in making sure she definitely had Max to herself.

Tess seems unconcerned about the division of the pod squad. That is just a little suspicious.

This has gotten to be long, but I'd like to say one more thing before I go.

When Liz said she was going to Sweden, the Max I knew and loved would have GONE WITH HER when he couldn't get her to not go. The Max I knew and and loved was concerned for her safety all the time - whether it be from aliens or humans.

I have more ideas, but they'll have to wait for later. bye all.

z.a.
*Dreamer and part-time Candy Girl*

Isabel said “wagon” 2x in CYN and she said “bandwagon” in ITL&ITB.

There were 5 files and 1 was locked (can you say key )

Max said “I don’t know what’s going on anymore!”

Liz said “You can’t pull that king card with me.”

CC: There were 2 close captioning I thought that was worth mentioning:
When Liz is with Sean in the school and Sean says “never stay in the same place for more than 5 minutes” cc: says Liz should have said “Does that mean I can come back.”

When Michael and Max are in the park talking Michael says “You know, about the Liz thing.” The close captioning says “You, know about the Alex thing.” I think the writer’s changed that at the end because they wanted to stress it was about Liz.

Another mention of Max confusing what he wants to be true and what is true. Can anyone say deception?

Liz called what Sean did “heroic.”

Okay, I just have to say I totally missed that Tess came to the observatory separate from Max. Must watch again.

Lurker—the Max rubbing Tess’s feet—definitely submission. She is controlling him.

Quote by zeroautumn
Someone before (I'm pretty sure it was on this thread) mentioned how Tess wanted to keep Max from touching Liz and theorized that if he did touch Liz, it might break him out of the permanent mindwarp Tess has on him.
Someone give that person a Max-shaped cookie! When Max touched Liz in this episode, even though it was out of anger ... it did clear his mind! He realized what he was doing and got this look of horror on his face.

This is so true!

Maria actually referred to them as the Pod Squad!

You slay me! I am of the "Tess is evil" persuasion, too.

And I can't remember who said it, but I too loved this ep (mainly because I kept my RBI hat on as opposed to my dreamer hat - notepad in hand taking notes the whole 44 minutes!)

I see you all had some fabulous thoughts over the evening after last night's eppy and I want to go back and read them all (and then probably comment), but I had a few thoughts of my own first. Sorry if they're "dupes" ( ), but I just have to get these out.

Scene 1: Maria referred to them as the "Pod Squad" - - did anyone else find that hysterical!?

WHAT is up with Max rubbing T's toes? Since when did they get so close? Something's fishy here! I realize Max is going through some weird changes (personally, I think they're T enduced, but..), but to just switch and all of sudden they're "studying together" and "rubbing" each other!? Did you notice how different Max looked in that scene directly after a commercial, where prior to the commercial he had grabbed Liz's arm and she said "let go" (not to mention the weird moment THAT was!)? He looked like Stepford-Max again and who was directly behind him? T! "I want to show you something". I bet you do, T!

Liz mentions that "Leanna is not Leanna" is 20 characters counting the spaces. The Binary Code is 20 characters - what is the connection? I know some of us figured out the code to mean "E49D9", which really means nothing, but NOW? Well, I can't help but think Liz was definitely onto something. As Meta said a while back, the meaning of the code is probably something within the eppy's!

Alex and "the building". First, is the building that Liz was looking for the same building/picture that we've seen all along (the slide/the fram/the car)? It looked different to me last night, but I'm not always that with it. So it was torn down in 1994, which means either a) the picture was created to make it look like they went to Sweden OR b) whoever Alex was with (Lonnie? Khivar?) took Alex to a place he THOUGHT was Sweden for a little while and then (maybe) eventually realized it was some alternate dimension. I have to think situation (B) is more likely since if "they" were going to create a fake picture wouldn't "they" at least use a structure "they" knew existed!?

Finally, next week's eppy? And Max and T with "the baby" ( ). T says, "Something's wrong". Maybe T:snake is evil and Max is good, so the combination of these two types in T's womb is TOO much - a struggle between good and bad, so to speak? Just a theory.

OK, off to read everyone's thoughts...

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Best line ever! ROTFL!

Zara

Your ideas are just WOW! Wish I could further comment, but can't all I can say is keep them coming. I truly believe that unless they can read your minds, they definately read what's here.

Can I just please applaud whoever said that hybrids CANNOT mate with other hybrids. I think that will prove to be important in the end. Not completely sure how, but I think it will it will. I mean come on, that is something you learn in basic biology! It's gotta be something the writers are well aware of, isn't it like some law of biology Maybe they're counting on the fact that most of us dont' remember that far back. Heck I almost forgot that too, and it was only 3 years ago.

Roxy

Sorry - couldnt resist.

quote:
Okay - as worthy as the last scene was - could it be any clearer that Max is mindwarped/mind-controlled??? I mean - they play a little "mindwarp" sound - they shine a funky light in his eyes - he tells Isabel he will drag her body back to Roswell if he leaves, he grabs Liz's arm (then looks at his own hand in shock) POOR Max! It seems like he is fighting it at moments - like he KNOWS something is wrong but cant break free of the mind control. Wake Up.
And does anyone still doubt that Tess is evil?? That scene with the aliens where Max went off on Isabel - Tess was SMILING - then Tess walked Max off with her arm oh-so-controllingly around his waist. Max Evans - you are her DESIGN allright.

I agree! The only question I have is how long can T mind warp? In other eppy's, when she's showing people that she's mind warping it appears she can only do it for a few minutes. Doesn't seem like very great Alien Sex if it only lasted a few minutes!

quote:Originally posted by zeroAutumn:
Someone before (I'm pretty sure it was on this thread) mentioned how Tess wanted to keep Max from touching Liz and theorized that if he did touch Liz, it might break him out of the permanent mindwarp Tess has on him.

Someone give that person a Max-shaped cookie! When Max touched Liz in this episode, even though it was out of anger ... it did clear his mind! He realized what he was doing and got this look of horror on his face.

Oh, I thought about that too! How odd was that scene of BOTH Max and Liz. He grabbed her and she responded and they had "that look". I felt as if they should have just reached out and hugged and *smooched* and lived happily ever after! Then again, I was just hoping we could avoid the Max/T scenes.

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
Max the saint has CONDOMS IN HIS BACK POCKET.
Remember - this was established in EOTW - if real Max had real sex - he carries protection. I always wondered why they made such a point to mention the condoms in EOTW.......maybe as a clue that the alien baby is imaginary........

I didn't catch that at all. Thanks! Maybe my worst fear HASN'T come true and Max and T HAVEN'T had sex! *ohpleaseohpleaseohplease*

[Edited to say that I just read the past few pages of this thread and I realize that several people already brought this up. I'm not crazy! Also, I think this hybrids-can't-reproduce theory is supported by the fact that the dupes never had any babies. And they didn't strike me as the most responsible aliens! ]

I have to admit, I was so emotional this episode I did not notice anything (except the "Let go of me." scene. Even my numb mind caught that). I have to rewatch it tonight!

Edited because it is too early for /'s.

-o---o-
------o-
------o-
------o-

Is it hinting that in some group of five, one of them is not on the same side as the others?

Haven't read page 6: I just had to comment on the phone number. It's not just the fives I noticed...

(505) 555- 0125
-0125= 8

Edited to add that I really thought this was a terrific episode minus the Tex! Lots to Myth over!

Love the pick up about the locked file!
Love the exacto knife pick up too!

One other thing I noticed was the the Swedish embassy guy had a statue of an ELEPHANT on his desk (not very "Swiss" so it HAD to mean something - right????)
Here ya go:
The elephant symbolozes the power of kingship, whoever invokes the power of the elephant is given their heart's desire. (Queen Liz working to protect the king??) The elephant is a symbol of unchanging stability. On many tantric mandalas, the elephant is set at the CENTER of four cardinal points. (In other words - it is at the FIFTH point - the fifth element)
Elephants symbolize knowledge and enlightnment.
Elephants symbolize a monarch (Queen Liz??) who avoids foolish and rash actions.
Finally - elephants are seen as a symbol of chastity.

Another one of my favorite lines from ITL
Liz: "I dont think the TRUTH is something Max Evans is particularly interested in right now".
Yup - cause he is one mind-warped puppy.

And now - from CYN:

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I know this has alread been mentioned (5 with 1 different) but the line, "it's like he's hinding it", just seemed really important. There is something inside Liz that is locked (like her meaning to the group) and someone is hiding it.

Sorry if this is just redundent, but I had to get it out of my head.

GraceKel - you raise good points about Michael. I dont know - I really dont want anyone else to end up being bad. (My husband mentioned last night that VALENTI could be bad and I have still not recovered. I choose to live in denial about the fact that his entire house is decorated with Harvest wheels!)
I thought that Micheal using Nasedo's line was a coincidence but one that showed the truth in the fact that what Nasedo was pushing as "reality" (i.e DESTINY) was in fact - a dream (mindwarp). Michael is the one who is in reality now. It also seems like hearing that line ALMOST snaps Max out of his Stepford phase. In fact - right afterwards (real) Max says the "I couldnt bear it if Alex's death was my fault" - but then Stepford Max takes over. Watch JB again in this scene - he does such an amazing job.

What bugged me was Isabel saying "Isabel Evans is DEAD" when she crumpled the paper. She was so Lonnie in that scene. And the line about "I played my role to a "t" - again like Lonnie (the actress - playing the "role" of Isabel Evans in MTD to confuse Max) It was all disturbing to me.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

What I mean is this:

1. Amy's bright orange stove
2. The bright red cab

It seemed surreal when I saw them. I thought it was weird that they stuck out to me. I don't usually notice stuff like that until I hear about them on this thread!

While I think using Nasedo's words, could be taken as Michael being evil, it's his later comments that point out what he really means.

When Max says that maybe Michael was right all along in wanting to find their alien heritage, Michael says that he's starting to think that he was wrong.

Michael uses Nasedo's words, I think, because they came from someone who supposedly knew more than they did. And he used them to talk about Liz, and Liz's theories, not Tess.

Maybe it's the Candy Girl in me, but I don't think that Michael acting like a good guy is cause for alarm. Michael has grown and matured in this season. In fact, I now present:

z.a.'s proclamation!

Mikey-G is now my favorite Male Roswell character until such time that Max can prove himself worthy of my affections again!
This will happen, when, and only when he 1.) gets rid of Stepford Max
2.) tells Tess that it's never gonna happen between them
3.) makes up with Liz and admits his feelings for her (and apology would be nice too).

Right now, Michael is far worthier of my affections than Max.

Liz is still my favorite of all time of course ^_^.

I have more theories, but no more time. I'll talk to everyone later.

z.a.
*Dreamer and part-time Candy Girl*

QFanny - Awesome catch!!! I hope to rewatch the episode at lunch today, and post a less emotional post, more analytical post afterwards. I really believe this episode was loaded with clues!

BTW - OT - I read a portion of the Gen Thread for the first time - and boy do I feel strange. Are these people watching the same show I'm watching?? I'm thankful I have my Myth Thread cocoon to come post on - so thanks to all of you!

Back with more later!

Zero
I Shall Believe (no matter what!)!
The Truth is Out There! (And only Liz can find it!)

a bit of a stretch but what the hey, 1994, 1+9+9+4= 10+13= 23= 2+3= 5!

the exacto knife that was stolen from Maria. Did Liz take it? Didn't she mention to Sean about being able to break into the school with a (exacto?) knife? I got the impression that Maria and Liz were talking about the same one.

I'm totally loving the CHESS CLUB + KING AND QUEEN idea. The set designers pay attention to this kind of thing, so it could prove to be something more than coincidence in the end.

"Leanna is not Leanna" I was screaming when I saw this on tv! "The RBIers were right!" But I'm now wondering if Leanna=Lonnie or someone else, hmmmm

Can someone explain what the title It's too little and it's too bad means? It's gotta be something of significance, but what is it?

Roxy

edited because grammar skills are not fully functional right now

Steph I soooo agree I was like ARGGGGGGGGG! T has his 'at her feet now' ...I guess .

quote:Did you notice how different Max looked in that scene directly after a commercial, where prior to the commercial he had grabbed Liz's arm and she said "let go" (not to mention the weird moment THAT was!)?

I also agree! What the hell WAS that?!?

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:
But I loved your other 'clues': missing my exacto knife, the king card, "5"s in her cell phone number.

I think the '555'is the standardized (if thts a word ) number used in television for any phone numbers said. Obviously because no one really has that prefix as their number so it avoids causing any problems in that area respectedly . About the exacto knife I also thought at first it might have been what Alex (or whoever it was ) that cut out Alex's head in the Sweden pics because it was cut off in that sort of straight lined rough cuts. Then Liz said something about how Sean used some sort of knife to open the door up . Maybe Sean isn't all good and he does have something to do with all of this. I find it REALLY hard to believe he just got let off that easy. Maybe he IS working with the cops/FBI in a deal that he got to shorten his time.

How about that line Sean said to Liz 'all I know is never stay in the same place for more than five minutes'! Maybe he WAS there when Alex died and THEN he left to where it was he was...hmm.....

The chorus is
"When you see her sweet smile baby - dont think of me.
And when she lays in your warm arms - dont think of me.
Because its too late and its too bad - so dont think of me."

The song relates - its about a girl who gets dumped for a little "homecoming queen" BUT the little "homecoming queen" turns out to be a manipulative, lying & cheating slut - heres a verse
"so youre with her - and not with me - I hear she spreads sweet honey.
In fact your best friend I heard he spent - last night with her.
So how does it feel? How does it feel? How does it feel???"

Then the "Its too late and its too bad" chorus gets repeated.

In the end - they boy realizes that he made a BIG mistake - but the dumped girl has very little sympathy. Lets hope Liz is more forgiving

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I enjoyed last nights episode because our Liz is kicking butt left and right. Iz is doing some kicking or should I say tossing of her own. If these two team up they alone can take on the bad aliens.
Did any of you notice that they were waring similar nicklaces? Also Iz is beginning to see Liz's POV. I think she and Michael will end up helping Liz in the end, someone needs to save the Kings butt, but at this point I don't see why, I say let the ******* fry. I'm not saying anything about the last 2 minutes because I don't want to hurt my keyboard.

I pretty much caught everything that has been posted. I think TPTB made the clue searching a little to obvious, or are we all really getting good at this and are thinking a lot alike?

Did any of you notice when Deputy Hanson was talking to Liz he said something like, "your parents are GOOD people, your a GOOD person." Then we have Iz telling Max that he is the BAD guy. Now think back to LN when Maria is asking GC about her hair, after GC answers Maria said, "She's good."
I think that the entire Parker family being voiced as GOOD must mean that they are here to bring goodness to the world. Right now we are seeing BAD Max and he is now Liz's enemy. So what side will Max choose in the end, Good or Bad?
Let's just hope Max heeds his own words from 4sq when M/L are talking about Tess.

LIZ: I know. Max, I’m not saying any of this because I’m jealous. It’s just that...she’s an alien, Max.

MAX: So am I.

LIZ: Yeah but, what if she’s...

MAX: The BAD kind? One of the monsters people have been so afraid of since the crash?

LIZ: I can’t help it. You know, no matter how much I get to know you, Tess, Nasedo, I...she scares me.

MAX: That’s why we won’t let her win. So go change, we’ll go back to the garage and watch her on the monitor.

I thought it was funny when I read the GO CHANGE part, I guess Max wasn't talking about changing her cloths. Tess won't win this time around because Liz has changed.

Evid

The chorus is
"When you see her sweet smile baby - dont think of me.
And when she lays in your warm arms - dont think of me.
Because its too late and its too bad - so dont think of me."

The song relates - its about a girl who gets dumped for a little "homecoming queen" BUT the little "homecoming queen" turns out to be a manipulative, lying & cheating slut - heres a verse
"so youre with her - and not with me - I hear she spreads sweet honey.
In fact your best friend I heard he spent - last night with her.
So how does it feel? How does it feel? How does it feel???"

Then the "Its too late and its too bad" chorus gets repeated.

In the end - they boy realizes that he made a BIG mistake - but the dumped girl has very little sympathy. Lets hope Liz is more forgiving

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Oh goodness I sure hope so too. But come on it's the love of her life how could she not be? Especially knowing that it's all a MIND MANIPULATION of some sort, which I'm still convinced of. Besides if Max could forgive her for "sleeping" with Kyle, though not real but Max thought it was, then why would she hold that kind of grudge against him. Soon it'll be time for them to not only heal themselves but heal each other, which only they can do.

Roxy

About Tess's curly hair, I posted quite awhile back about an ancient Egyptian belief regarding blonde women. They believed that the form a devil or demon would take if it wanted to defeat it's enemy was that of a blonde, curly-headed little girl . This is not to say that Tess is a shapeshifter, but Khivar (represented by a in Ava's collage) could be working with her to defeat his enemy. He wants Max dead, Tess wants Max. I don't think Tess is above trying to strike a deal with Khivar to get what she wants

OK, switching gears--the pendant on Liz's necklace with the black, velvet-looking ribbon was jade. Here's what I found on jade at www.masterwiresculptor.com:

Jade is often referred to as the Stone of Heaven by the Chinese. It's considered a symbolic link between man and the spiritual world (links Liz to Alex).

Jade is treasured in China as the royal gemstone. Dragons and phoenixes were usually carved from jade for nobility.

Jade is the mystical birthstone for March (Max's birth month), and the birthstone for the sign of Virgo (the Virgin, and what some of us believe to be Liz's sign).

Jade is a symbol of love, virtue, fidelity, generosity, concentrated essence of love, and is used as a status symbol. It is believed to enduce relaxation and concentration. It's been said that jade helps bring things into balance and promotes health, wealth, and longevity. Jade is said to help us understand our dreams (can someone give Max some? ) and to live in harmony with the laws of nature.

With regards to the next ep, let us all remember what our beloved Lady Liz said--that nothing is ever what is seems!

I thought I'd share some points about the whole hybrid discussion that is going on.
First I think that everyone should remember that we are all hybrids, Any time two animals mate they produce a hybrid (in another words a cross) between themselves. This happens because the chromosomes allign and pair off.

When a mule is made the chromosomes do not pair off correctly (a horse and a donkey have a different number of chromosomes) so they are sterile. There have only been 5 cases reported in the US where a mule has reproduced and none of them have been proven. The cases reported all had the mule being bred back to a stallion (a male horse.)

So how does this relate to Roswell? Obviously these hybrids of 2 species can't produce offspring themselves because of their out of whack chromosome make up. Then theoretically the only way they can have viable offspring is if they are mated back to one of the parental species, but even that chance is small because the chromosome line-ups of those 2 (say Max and Liz) would have to be similar (lets hope they are.)

Someone brought up hybrid vogor and I thought I'd clarrify that a bit. Hybrid vigor is used a lot in the ag industry to produce offspring superior to their parents. For example if you take a dairy cow that had a high milk fat % and mate her to a bull whose other daughters and dam also have a high MF%, the offspring will in turn surpass the MF% previously produced. The whole theory about breeding donkeys and horses are along that line...that the best traits of each specie would show up. That's probably what the aliens were trying to do when they made their hybrids.

A few more thoughts and then I'll go.
I have worked a lot with mule (unfortunatly) and have shown at Bishop Mule Days when I went to Davis. Mules are the most stubborn, aggrivating, and dangerous domestic animal I have evey worked with. I wonder if that can relate to the pod squad at all.

Lastly, the pod squad has always reminded me more of a cloning, except they also had human genes introduced so they can live on earth (transgenic). The thing about clones is that even though they have the same genetic make up of the prodessessor, they will phenotypically be different (ie how they look and act) This could be why the pod squad looks differently than on the templates. You can't recreate the same person (or alien) ever. The environment plays a large role in how you turn out, even more than your genetic code sometimes, so why does T*** think that they should be with Max again. They are both completely different in this life. Not to mention the last time they were together they died.

Max was definitely not himself last night. He was just NOT well at all. It seemed to me that there were an aweful lot of clues leading to mindwarp. You know how I said last week that Max could go to H@** in a handbasket for all I care if this is not a mindwarp. Well, I think he is there. He is in H@** and Tess put him there one way or another. Did anyone else think he was just evil when he told Isabel he'd tell their parents she was a drug addict and would drag her physically back to Roswell permanently. My first thoughts on this was that he reminded me of an abusive husband. Physically abusive, emotionally abusive. He is NOT our Max. Where, oh where has our Max gone? A second example of this would be when he grabs Liz in school. The camera actually pauses on his hand, he looks at his hand as if it is not his own, and then the camera pans to his face to what looks like shock. The third example of the abusive "evil" Max is in the scene where Liz wants to get in the cab to leave Roswell. He rips her bag out of her hands and throws it in the jeep and then he gets in her face, looks down at her, and continues to yell at her. Where, oh where has the real Max gone? Something is very, VERY wrong here!

I'm sure many of you noticed Tess' smile when the podsquad is walking along the highway. Isabel broaches the subject of Liz's investigation. Tess turns her head forward and smiles. Hmm.... Then as they walk further down the highway, Isabel brings up the subject of her leaving for college. Tess looks forward again and rolls her eyes. Hmmm....

We've said this many a time before, but in this episode it was VERY obvious. Tess always shows up whenever Max is at his weakest. Oh it is a tangled web Tess weaves when in Roswell she tries to deceive!

Several mentions of this being a dream and to "wake up".

There were two lines in this ep that were similar to ones in the past. One was what Michael says to Max in the park about what we want to be reality may just not be. And there was another, but I need to go rewatch and actually write it down.

And last but not least, did any one else notice the way the camera moved in the last sequence. Right after the show was over my sister called me and she notice the same thing. The camera shows Max and Tess starting to kiss and then the camera pans to the side to show Liz at the airport about to get on the plane. Liz gets the phone call from the swedish embassy about the glass building and then they pan back to Max and Tess in the observatory. To me and to my sister it appeared as if the director was trying to juxtapose these scenes against one another, to show that one is on the right path and another is gone down the wrong one. That one is thinking clearly and another is lost. Will we ever be able to get our Max back?

And as an aside, I have to say that I am rather disappointed in the writers and directors for going down this path, for having Max loose his virginity to Tess, for turning this into 90210, and bringing up the alien baby card again. Hello! I don't appreciate them turning Roswell into 90210 drivel. yuck!
Now, I've said it and I'm telling you I'm pinning my hopes on this being a mindwarp, hypnosis, or a trance of some sort. I want to wake up from this and say, "It was all a bad dream, it was all a bad dream." I'm going to start clicking my ruby slippers together soon if they don't resolve this soon to my satisfaction.
How in the world are we going to get our sweet, wonderful Max back? JK is going to HAVE to be a genius to wrap this up to my satisfaction. And now that I've said that, I must say, "Liz, YOU GO GIRL!"

I'm sorry if I've repeated anyone else's thoughts. I'm going to go get some lunch and read the rest of the thread.

Think good thoughts...
the REAL Max:

In the beginning, when Liz found the one locked file within the 5 sub-folders and the 'Leanna is not Leanna' message came up, it started to speed up as it continued posting down the screen; and the fact that Liz figured out that she realated the binary code to the fact of all the spaces used up in the Leanna message, is a strong, possible link to a computer application as we can get, thus far, I believe. Props to Liz, and her ever-famous detective mode super search. She's really strung out on high gear! Tessy-darling had better watch her back, is all I have to say! Speaking of Tess; notice in the bedroom scene, where Max is massaging her feet? (An act of submission), and she is totally smiling and sittin' on top of the world until he mentions the fact that he feels like he is living a dream; and is scared to be with her. That silly happy look of hers got wiped off in a millisecond! It was after that, that she really seemed to keep REAL close tabs on Max. Oh yeah....and the amazing curlyhair/straight hair....in between keeping tabs on Max, and hanging on him all the time, tell me...just when and where did she find the time to affect those hair styles so quickly?

Props to Michael throughout the entire eppy! I totally loved that 'double speak' play with Amy DeLuca.....And to the fact that he is noticing that somthing funky is going on....a definate trading of mind patterns. How crazy is it that Michael is Max's messenger boy now? It seems that Max and Michael have semi-traded places...which isn't a real bad thing right now...

To Isabelle; for actually speaking up for Liz, somewhat. And then really having it out with Max....For those who still doubt the entire 'mind warp' plot, if the way he's treating his women, and (including) the one we all love to hate isn't a big, fat clue, then I have no idea what else to say. I was really surprised that Isabelle used her powers like that in the crowded halls of the school....Hmmmmmmm. I saw the look on Max's face when Malamud got 'swept off his feet' by lovely Iz....I think he actually got a Max moment there.

Grr.....Tess really is pushing her limits....or ours, should I say? No wonder the ratings basically sucked. HERE'S THE BIGGIE THAT I NOTICED THAT YOU REALLY HAVE TO READ!!! I want to point out that when, at the end of the show, where we start getting traumatized by the make-out scene....I noticed, that the 'breaks' within their kissing....Kind of like a break in a roll of film..It will go through a scene, then go back, play it again, then go back, and play it again. I taped the eppy, and I noticed this more and more.....Did anyone see it? I know I'm NOT crazy!!! I have a feeling that was Tess, playing out the mind warp sequence, like a broken film, and then let her imagination take over....which brings me to my conclusion to this line: All they did, I believe was make out. P.S. Props to the person who saw the blanket that Tess brought. That girl really knows how to plan ahead.
Okay....*takes deep breath* ...I want to point out the fact, that from my memory, there have been two instances where we have heard about a 'card yet to be played'. Once, was with Lonnie, still planning to find a way to get home, which tells us that she is not finished yet, so don't count her out of the game, and second, when Liz tells Max to not pull the 'king' card on her....and to WAKE UP!
When Max grabbed Liz at school, you could see the sequence where Max is Stepford, and then Liz looks at him, as if to say 'Who are you?' and then Max snaps out of it, and the they look at eachother like, OHMYGOD. Then Max walks off.
Also, I'd like to give a loud round of applause to the person who brought up the relative parallel to Chess to Max/Liz; heck, the entire show! !!!!
The scene between Liz and Sean, I give them a ! I could WAY better tolerate the kiss they shared then I could anything between M/T! I believe I am starting to warm up to Sean.... And finally, to the person who brought up the missing exacto knife.... Big Clue There!

Alright, well...I didn't expect me to make this so long, but I'll probably have more for later....My brains on high speed, and my finges aren't cooperating anymore....I would appreciate any respose to this, I want to know if anyone out there noticed the same stuff as I did! Thanks!

I'll step in here for a minute. It's not a 'guitar' it's an acoustic bass.

{~}:}

I hope that the writers have had a bio class too! they should take one if not. they are writing science fiction stuff so they should get it right. oh well.

~StarDustPixie

And for anyone who doubts what Tess is capable of, go back and rewatch 4Square or read the transcript.

Max to Liz: She's dangerous, don't ever forget that (Why oh why didn't you take your own advice? )

Liz to Max: Who knows what she'll do to you if she ever gets you alone (unfortunately we know now!)

Tess to Isabel: Pay more attention Isabel, there are signs all around you (I wish someone in the group was paying attention to what's going on with Max)

Isabel to Max: She really scared me Max. It was like I lost a few seconds of time and when it was over I wasn't sure if what I remembered had happened or not. Is that what she did to you?

Max to Isabel: Kind of. It was like she could make my mind go places I wasn't taking it.

I was thinking about the whole idea that somebody had raised about futuremax being a mindwarp from tess, and although i really seriously doubt it, since we saw both futuremax and futureliz before liz saw futuremax, if it really IS a mindwarp FMax's comment about Tess's low-cut shirt would be a bit of a giveaway, wouldn't it?

anyways, I'm definitely with all those who think that the baby is fake, considering that hybrids can't reproduce (although i suppose a highly advanced alien civilization might have figured out how to genetically engineer the podsters so that they can overcome the usual chromosomal mismatch) and also since that baby is growing awfully quickly....

here's hoping that somehow liz will figure everything with alex out and in order to convince max she'll inadvertantly grab his arm or something, and he'll get flashes from her of FMax or *NOT* sleeping with kyle, or whatever.

totenhosen

Kudos to all of you who've pointed out the improbability of two hybrids producing offspring at all, let alone viable offspring.

I think that the Tex was a combination of things. As Reggie pointed out, the constellations are aligned again and that means that Max's body is interested, no matter what his mind thinks. Of course, he's a teenager anyway, but that's just an extra push. Tess showed up very conveniently, complete with blanket. Do I think they made out? Yes. I'm pretty sure that's all they did; the rest is planted in Max's head, as a way to snare him. And since Max is an honourable guy (well, usually!), when she tells him she's pregnant he'll feel obligated to be with her. And as for Saint Max and his condom--were I him, I would have tossed that after seeing Liz & Kyle. I doubt he still carries one. Additionally, this was supposedly the first time for both Max and Tess (I agree with Reggie that she would have waited for Max), but it was totally rushed and hurried and there was no tenderness at all. Max does actually care about Tess as a person, and he may currently be deluded into thinking that he feels more for her. If that's the case, then he would have been slow and gentle with her, and it would NOT have occurred in a public place!!!! It's another pointer to the presence of Stepford Max, IMO.

I don't think anyone here has brought it up, but essentially, regardless of whether the Tex was a complete mindwarp or if Tess was just controlling Max's actions, she raped him. She may as well have given him Rohypnol or something like that. Harsh words, I know, but that's what I believe happened. Either she physically raped him, or she mindraped him. Either way, her actions are unforgivable.

I've always liked Tess. I thought her character had so much potential, could be so rich. I'm p.o.ed that TPTB seem to be brushing off all of her character development this season, and reverting to type.

Oh, one other thing, about the foot rub. There have been numerous occasions where Max has been shown as a Christ figure. There is importance placed on the washing of Jesus' feet by his followers (behr with me, I'm not a Bible scholar or anything here!). So, what does it mean that the Christ figure is holding someone else's feet? Role reversal? It was also a strange scene in that Max didn't really seem to be aware of what he was doing with Tess' foot. He was sort of half-heartedly rubbing it, not really paying attention. And totally not doing any kind of real massage, which would presumably be the whole point! It reminded me of the way he was fidgeting with the baseball glove in Alex's room in CYN--needing something to do with his hands b/c he was agitated. I think the scene definitely speaks to Max being submissive to Tess at this point in time.
~Tas

quote:My ISP is having trouble.
If you have time, and if the links at Zero's thread aren't working, could you please post that the links may be down today, but should be restored by 6pm PDT the latest? Thanks.

Computers: I wouldn't have one on a bet.

The King’s too involved, there’s an outstanding war, his planet’s future and a kingdome at stake and two Queens around Tess and Ava, who’s without Zan.

I’m no more a dreamer or a believer and don’t think that season’s one magic will ever come back.
Do hope that Liz will find a second best to make her happy, she’s the best character of the whole series.

My motto is: For ever and however LIZ!

Elena

The King’s too involved, there’s an outstanding war, his planet’s future and a kingdome at stake and two Queens around Tess and Ava, who’s without Zan.

I’m no more a dreamer or a believer and don’t think that season’s one magic will ever come back.
Do hope that Liz will find a second best to make her happy, she’s the best character of the whole series.

My motto is: For ever and however LIZ!

Elena

In last nights epi it was said that the building in the picture was destroyed in 1994. In BB Alex says that he moved to Roswell in the 4th grade but Liz did not notice him until the Ms. Elmer’s class in the 5th grade. 1994 would have been the year that Alex moved to Roswell. I don’t think that’s a coincidence.

Ok so here’s my weird theory. Could Alex have been sent in some kind of a protector compactly for Liz and or Maria?

:lol Tas! I agree.

Lizzybell
__________________
Loner
I’m just happy to be nominated. -Kyle
Go read Secrets in the Past, Now!

I just had to reply to this because it gave me chills! Christ washed and annointed the feet of his disciples at the Last Supper. Right before he was betrayed and tried and crucified. I'm pretty sure.

On another thread someone made a parallel between Tess and Satan when she took Max up to the Empire State building and told him he was the king of the world, just not this one. Like when Satan took the Lord up on the mountain and tempted him. It's eerie!

I would have said Tess was good 2 episodes ago. Now I don't know what to make of her. If they wanted to go with her being bad, they could.

Oh, and Tess remembers to bring a blanket but not protection. Duh. She sooo wants to get pregnant! Ewwww.

And why does Tess refer to the kiss at prom as "the infamous kiss"?

Is there a lustful seed of evil growing in all four podsters? It would be a seed that divides them by their misdirected dreams. Michael has always wanted a family. Tess, of course wants Max's baby. Isable longs for college and Max is trying to grab control of everyone. No one but Liz is focused on the danger they could be in. I think she's going to have to help all four of them "WAKE UP" in a hurry. -HH

The King’s too involved, there’s an outstanding war, his planet’s future and a kingdome at stake and two Queens around Tess and Ava, who’s without Zan.

I’m no more a dreamer or a believer and don’t think that season’s one magic will ever come back.
Do hope that Liz will find a second best to make her happy, she’s the best character of the whole series.

My motto is: For ever and however LIZ!

Elena

OK, there's two classes of "binary code". There's data, and instructions. Data is numbers, letters, etc. A file that says "Leanna is not Leanna" is data. (Yes, I saw that it was a Mac, but I'm not going into bifurcated file systems without a fight! )

On the other hand, Internet Explorer and WordPerfect are "applications", that is, programs that can be run on a computer. Each program is composed of instructions. These instructions tell the computer how to do the things necessary to carry out a program. For example, one instruction might tell the computer to subtract two numbers, the next may tell the computer to continue with the next instruction IF the result was zero, OTHERWISE jump to the instruction at such-and-such a location and continue there.

The twenty-bit number we're studying isn't relevant as a computer instruction. It "must" be data. OTOH, it could just be a clue to get Liz to look at Alex's computer because she's thinking about computer stuff. That's where she found the Leanna file, after all!

CP/M isn't dead. It just smells that way sometimes.

I saw it differently. Only one file in the whole computer is locked? It sticks out like a sore thumb, doesn't it? How big a red flag is this?

Oh, re: condoms. They often don't work. The average failure rate, for the ones they passed out in the NYC school system, was 1 in three. You get better odds with Russian Roulette!

On a related note: have we all figured out what the deal was, with mix-ups and mistakes and the word "cherry"?

Do something out of character, to the effect that she isn't completely besotted with Max. She's done everything but have his name tatooed on a part of her she can't see!

Yes! What cable are these people getting?

Zara

Anyway, while I was there I saw a version of pilot that had cut scenes! Wow! It's was like watching pilot all over again. Also, a lot of the music was different. It had a darker feeling to the show. Basically, the verison I saw had more Liz and Maria (the bathroom scene after the shooting like it follows in the books) and the Alex - Liz scene in the music rooms was longer too. It was incrediable to watch. The show still ended the same.

Rooney, if you are lurking, please come on and post a better description of these scenes! I know you know them better than me.

Qfanny,

You caught me lurking! I read this thread faithfully but rarely post! What I thought interesting about the cut scenes was that Liz admitted to Maria and to Alex that she had been shot. (Grazed but she went to the Emergency Room) Max just helped her with breathing techniques to help her get through it. (I don't know how well my breathing would be if I had Max half on top of me looking into my eyes! I'm sure I'd need mouth to mouth!) Another scene that was expanded was Jonathan Frakes had a longer scene at the Crashdown Festival.

Rooney

In the copy of Pilot that I have (the uncut version), that line "we've got to get rid of her" is left out. so I have to conclude that it was put in deliberately in the final version.

Rooney

Roxy

Maybe they're also counting on the fact that we forget what Liz's best subject in school is: biology. Because something tells me that she'd pick up on the hybrid's inability to reproduce in under two seconds.

Hmmmmm, not good thoughts, but my bf teases me about being too involved with the show to see the idea that maybe Max wasn't being completely wrong here so I did promise him I would consider it. Really to me it just adds credence to the Tess mindwarp theory.

Sorry this is so long...

shanna

You took the words right out of my mouth!! I just hope she can think rationally about this and doesnt' let her emotions rule her reaction.

Something has been bugging me about why Max was so completely adamant about Iz not leaving. It just seemed sooo forceful. There is just something about the way he handled it that's making me go hmmm. I can't put my finger on it, but still. His reaction would only seem acceptable if he knew about the whole FM fiasco and for some reason he couldn't explain why. If Liz reacted this way it would seem a little more real, but with Max? It just seemed part of the mindwarp/manip/whatever. Make sense? Any thought? or is it just me?

Roxy

After living through last night episode my mind has gone into RBI mode. I have a theory that I would like to throw out in the discussion. I fully believe that Tess is mind warping Max because I can not believe the alternative. Yet there have been several people on the board that has pointed out that Tess can’t be constantly mind warping Max. She could be picking and choosing her moments. Planting false “home” memories in Max mind and last night’s escapade. We have seen in previous episodes that when she mind warps 1-2 people she doesn’t seemed as drained. So it seems that mind warping Max especially when his mind is open (memory retrieval sessions) would not be difficult. OK this is really when I get really crazy. Tess has even stated that even if she mind warped Max into loving her that is would not last forever, but if Tess got pregnant she know that even though he might not lover her Max would still be the stand-up guy and stay with her. So I am saying that Tess’s pregnancy is real because I don’t believe that she could keep up that lie for long. Maybe she is in cahoots with whoever murdered Alex and then again maybe someone is mind warping her and controlling her actions. We still don’t know what happened to her in MITC.

This could be my dreamer heart's wishful thinking!

Beth

and Yes, Max and Tess did do the deed. At least according to the rating it said "TV PG DLS" and S stands for S-E-X <Hurl>
And how does Tess know exactly when and where to find Max when he's upset?

Maria's EXACTO knife is missing and Liz asked if she could break into the school with a Swiss Army knife. Big difference. Don't think Liz could use an exacto knife to break into the school. But it could have been used to cut Leanna out of Alex's picture.

I'm not sure what to make of this whole Leanna is not Leanna thing! But did anyone see the video of Katie and Colin talking about CYN on the WB site? VERY BIG SPOILER CLUE as to whether or not Alex is still alive. <SIGH>

This is what keeps buggin me - I keep going back to the end of MITC. We have all wondered if that was really Tess or Lonnie or a mind controled Tess. We know that Nicholas had some heavy duty powers and really was able to get to Max - which actually surprised Nic. Also, we know that Nic knows how to be in different dimensions at one time or at least how to change the time demension. Anyway, the podsquad didn't leave Roswell and Nic and the dupes know where they are and unless TPTB come up with something that expalins their absense, Nic and the dupes are still out there and Alex didn't go to Sweden. When the dupes were in Roswell, they tried to split up the podsquad and now that is happening and Max is out of control. Some say that Max is still suffering from the effects of the white room, but isn't it more likely that someone is taking advantage of the effects of the white room and Max's struggle with his kingship and his humanity? Basically, I wonder if Nic and Lonnie are possibly behind what is happening and Tess is the link between them and Max. Or Lonnie is Tess, remember the line, "I want to go home to Roswell", it never really fit the Tess we knew. Or Lonnie is Leanne. I hope you all understand this.
I better stop now, I think my thinker is getting tangled in this web of ideas that can go in all directions. I can hardly wait til Monday, although I will have a Bbag handy.

TTFN

We're going to help someone we don't like based on the word of someone we don't trust...Tao to Dar

It was totally weird watching the pilot with those added scenes. I've seen the pilot thousands of times and to hear different words and different music with it was just amazing.

Now - I don't feel Max was himself during the episode of ITLATB. But I certainly do not think Max was being possessed or mindwarped. Think about Max for a minute. Liz knows him better than anyone. He's controlling. He feels responsible for everyone. He needs to go back to Toy House, (the worse Roswell ever) and follow Liz's advice. Have faith in the people around you. I think Max's behavior to be typical of himself during season three. There are good reasons for Max to feel the way he does. He has oodles and oodles of responsibility. During last season, they were all equal until the Destiny bomb. Sure, Max was the pseudo leader, but he wasn't "king". Now Max is King, and he's starting to remember things too. He may be remembering how important they all stay together, and whether Max wants to admit it or not, Liz is part of the pod squad (but not because of her altered state).

After Destiny, it became clear that Max's role would change to leader - officially. Michael and Isabel have teased him about it. "Your our leader, why don't you lead?" "If you have a problem, take it to Max, he's the leader." They (Mi and I) may not like Max's decisions all the time, but they do like the fact that he's the leader. There is no way I can believe that Michael or Isabel would enjoy making those same decisions. And you know what, if anyone else had to decide if Isabel could go to San Fransico or not, the same decision would be made. If Max or Tess decided to leave Roswell, Isabel would try to convice them to stay. She may not like Max's method, but I understand his rationale.

It was the grabbing of Liz's arm I didn't like. I think Max was in a total state of panic, and that in itself can change your character.

Sorry I haven't had a chance to catch up on this thread yet.

This episode was very Tesspicious. Max seems to go in and out of confusion. And what is with Tess smurk and laugh when Isabel is asking Max if Liz could be right. hello!! Anyway everything that has been said in previous episodes about Max's (past) leadership is coming to pass now.

I will elaborate some more later

Oh and let me just say that the only real chemistry happening in this episode was when Max and Liz were arguing in front of the cab.I really enjoyed that scene.(oh and M/M too)

Roxy

I don't think it's just you. That scene has been running through my head all afternoon, like things do when you feel like you're missing something. You've definitely touched on part of what was bugging me about that scene. Now if I could only put my finger on the rest...

So - mindwarping/mindraping Max, dividing the podsters (she smirked like a cat that just ate a canary when Max and Isabel fought), putting everyone in danger - all that would be okay if she is motivated by the desire to be Max's "sweetie-pie"???
Nope - someone that puts their own designs above the good of others and does anything necessary to get what they want - that person is evil in my book.
Tess USED to say that she only wanted to be with Max because it was critical to saving their planet. She always played the card that what she was doing - pushing destiny - she was doing because thats the way it "had" to be if they were going to save the home planet ala Mom-o-grams mandate. She even said she never asked to be Max's mate.
Now - all of a sudden - its absolutely critical that she get with Max FAST - and she is willing to take down Michal, Isabel, Alex, Liz, Maria - anyone that stands in the way.
I dont even think she really WANTS Max - I think her real goal is and has always been to infiltrate and divide the group, make them vunerable and then trick them into a well-laid trap. If she wanted MAX - if it was about a crush or infatuation - she wouldnt be happy with Stepford Max. But Tess seems totally content with having robot-Max doing her bidding. Its not love she is after. It is conquest.

And - I have to say - I find it SO enjoyable to watch! <sigh> a bad guy at last! I swear - ITLAITB was my second favorite episode of the year.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I've been watching older episodes for clues, esp. the early Tess ones. I was trying to remember why we were all so suspicious of her, and I mean instantly. So I watched 'Four Square', and I found what I think is the very first time Max ever had that 'unplugged' look:

It was right after Tess 'made him see' the flash of their awakening, and her still in the pod. And it occurred to me that this happened immediately after Max had confronted her about who she was, and what she was doing in Roswell. Check this out, if I'm not boring you rambling on:

(In Max's room. He is dreaming of Tess and the symbols.)

TESS: It's time. You understand, don't you?

MAX: Tell me. Tell me what I'm feeling.

TESS: I'll show you everything, and you'll remember.

(They drive off into the desert.)

MAX: This is it. This is what Michael saw in his hallucination.

TESS: We've all seen it. We've all been here before.

MAX: What do you mean, 'we'?

TESS: Hold me, Max. You'll remember.

MAX: I remember you're a killer... starting from 1959.

TESS: What?

MAX: William Atherton. The one who wrote the alien book? It was about you, wasn't it? He was your friend, but he threatened to expose you, so you killed him, right?

TESS: What are you talking about?

MAX: Then who was next? Everett Hubble's wife? An innocent woman died just because she got in your way.

TESS: I've never killed anyone.

MAX: What about the other hand print pictures Valenti told us about? And how many other victims will there be after tonight? Alex? Maria? Liz!?

TESS: Nobody has to get hurt, Max.

MAX: Sure, until you get what you want.

TESS: It's not just what I want, it's what's meant to be. It's all in here, Max. Our destiny.

MAX: No! I am not like you. I live in this world. It's all I know! And I will not be a part of anything as evil as you.

TESS: Is that what you think I am?

MAX: Show me who you really are. Don't hide behind this face.

TESS: I'm not hiding, Max.

MAX: I said, show me! Shape-shift! Show me what you really look like...what I really look like.

TESS: God, Max, that's not who I am. That's not who I am. Think Max. You've seen my face before. You know who I am.

(Max has a vision of himself coming out of the pod. Isabel and Michael were already out. There was a fourth pod with a girl with blond curls. They left her there.)

TESS: You know who I am now, don't you. You understand our destiny.

MICHAEL: Hey. What the hell did you do to him? To all of us?

MAX: Michael, stop it. She's not Nasedo.

ISABEL: Then who is she, Max?

MAX: She’s one of us.

(Scene fades out with an overhead shot of the 4 aliens in the four square formation)

I've highlighted important stuff in bold...because looking at this scene again I really believe this was the first time Tess used her real 'mindwarp' ability on Max for something more than visual daydreams. At the beginning, when she wakes him, she says, in an eerie foreshadowing of Max's line in HOM ('You made me remember') "I'll show you everything, and you'll remember." An assurance...or a command?

Max's whole attitude at this point was the strong, loyal Max we know and love...a Max who was far from dim-witted and had done his homework as far as Tess was concerned. Her apparent explanations in this episode led me, and many of us, to believe he had it all wrong when he accused her of being evil...of Nasedo, and possibly her despite her protests, offing anyone who "got in your way", like Sheila Hubble and Atherton. But what if he had it right, even so early after her arrival?

What if his confrontation, so scarily near to the truth, drove Tess to try something more drastic than the approaches she had been using up to that point? The first 'Stepford Max' happens immediately after this.

Max also accused her of doing what she pleased "until you get what you want". Looking back I don't believe this is an accidental piece of scripting. Neither is Max's accusation that she will go after Alex, Maria and Liz next. It's starting to look from this and all the other specs flying around that Tess had something to do with Alex's death.

But my favourite part; Max is adamant that his place is in Roswell, with the people he loves. "I live in this world. It's all I know. And I will not be a part of something as evil as you."

The final clue: when Michael and Isabel catch up to them, Michael says: "Hey! What the hell did you do to him? To all of us?" Good question, Mikey G, ITA.

I guess what I'm saying is that Tess' plot, and Nasedo's, might have always been what we're seeing now. She tried the lesser persuasions, like the lab-kiss vision, and the dreams he had which we didn't see much of, but when Max confronted her so forcefully, she realised he was too strong for her to capture with conventional means. The first 'Stepford Max' incident, in which she used him to convince the others she was one of them, was the first of many from a desperate Tess who finally realised what she was up against.

Kinda makes you like Max a whole lot better, doesn't it? The fact that maybe these mindwarps and careful assassination of his relationships all happened because HE WAS TOO STRONG FOR HER.

I'm sorry if I offended any Rebels...I'm just taking stuff direct from the episodes, and it's only one chic's theory anyway. At least in my theory most of the plotting was Nasedo's.

I'm really sorry this is so long...but I saw it and I had to post it. Sorry.

I want to apologize up-front for the following post, because I know it is going to be LONG! But I have move past my emotional numbness of last night, and was able to re-watch the episode with an investigative eye! So here goes:

Some have asked about Closed Captioning. I had a former roomie who used to do it when I was living in LA years ago. I e-mailed her about it, and here is her response:
quote:Actually, I did the Closed Captioning for more than 2 years, so I do know {about it]. At least when I did it, we did not use a script, we sat and actually viewed the show - I think they still do. The reason that the captions are not identical to what is being said is that hearing impaired people cannot usually read at a high pace (they don't have the added information of auditory feedback to reinforce what is being said) so the standard for a caption is that it must only be an average of two words per second... AND the idea is to keep as many of the original words as uttered - because many people watching the captions DO have some residual hearing - so you want to reinforce what they think they heard. If someone is speaking very quickly, you must find a way to cut the number of words down to two words per second, and not change too many of the words - that's trickier than it sounds. Also, the National Captioning Institute uses the New York Times book of style - they take this stuff VERY seriously. Everyone there was very well educated and had to have a very good working knowledge of proper grammar, spelling, etc. It's actually quite fascinating - at least to me.”
I then asked if they worked from the final episode or an earlier version, and she said she always worked from a final cut. Hope that helps a little!

Maria mentions that Lis is “on a Crusade” – a synonym for Battle or War! Ummm……!

Card from the Floral Arrangement implies that whomever sent it (since we now KNOW that the Olsens didn’t send it) is close by enough to send flowers within a day or two of the crash – remember the funeral was only 2 days later. When Max walks away from Mikey G in the park – the “Florist” sign is prominent in the background. Finally, the florist’s – who was extremely unhelpful BTW – number was 505-555-0195. Lots more 5’s!

Alex’s entire trip was set up through the “Guidance Office” – now who do we associate with the Guidance Office from Season 1 – Topolsky!! She was the FBI plant – serving as a Guidance Counselor – which is the office Liz and Sean break into. Can anyone get screen caps of the pages she copied. My freeze frame does not come out clear! The picture of the Olsens is the same as the one Alex had – which is very odd! I did get some dates off one of the pages later on when Liz is holding it, and I will post those with the other dates I got!

The strain between Maria and Liz was wonderfully played, and very real to me! Both are dealing with the death of Alex in their own natural way. I would wonder if Liz took everything at face value! I do not believe she is being cold, just focused! Liz: “I’m just looking for the Truth. I don’t think that Max is interested in that right now.” Notice she says “right now” which implies that she has not given up hope that he will care at some point in the future.

There were 5 subfolders, and in the last subfolder there is 1 locked file. (“I the Stud” Anagram anyone??)

The Binary Code has nothing to do with Alex’s AP Computer class, and without an application doesn’t mean anything. I also believe the meaning will be found within the contexts of the show – but here is my try. I found a pattern when grouping in 3s, except for the last two numbers. 111/001/001/001/110/110/01 (Lea/nna/ is/ no/t L/ean/na ) The first group could stand for the original three podsters (Yes – I caught when Maria said that – and I Don’t know where it originated, but …), the next three groups could stand for humans (Valenti, Alex, Maria), the next two groups could stand for the healed humans (Liz and Kyle) and the final grouping – which is missing a number – could stand for Tess – who is missing something. Okay – don’t laugh – I tried!

Here are the new Dates:
1994 – Year the building in the Picture of Leanna and Alex was torn down – confirmed by 3 people in the Swedish consulate.
12/9/2000 – Alex’s Departure for Sweden Date.
1/16/2001 - Date Leanna Document was created.
1/18/2001 – Date Alex and Leanna were supposed to be traveling to the Baltic Islands – where the mysterious building supposedly existed.
1/28/2001 – Alex’s Return from Sweden Date.

Just a reminder – 1994 was the year that Vanessa Whitaker married her Congressman husband.

Liz making that timeline was so true to character! I loved it!! (Okay –she reminded me of me too! )

I’m not sure I see the relevance of the “missing the exacto knife” – but I figure someone can explain it to me!

Iz – YOU GO GIRL!! First she at least wants to consider that Liz MIGHT be correct! And the disgusted look she gets on her face when she watches Max with Tess’ arm around him! YOU GO GIRL I loved the confrontation with Max at School! Max was a TOTAL JERK – and Iz burning the paper, telling him to see what it is to lead without any followers, and then tossing that guy down the hall IN FRONT OF EVERYONE – that was awesome!! LOVED IT!

Max was so quick to dismiss Iz and Liz – not like Max of past – the only real indication to me that there was something wrong with him. BUT I’m still not convinced that the sex was fack – more on that later!

The feet rubbing was too much for me – okay another indication that something weird is going on – Max has to be out of his mind! At least he has reservations of “following that road” – obviously he is not following his heart if he is hanging out with Tess!

As everyone has stated the talk about Dreams and Reality is SO prevalent that it would be impossible to miss it – so again this does imply that something is going on – but what?? :eyespin: I just pray that some of the inducing scenes were an illusion – I tend to believe only Liz is living in the Real world right now!

Sean was totally cool in this episode – and I’m off the fence – and totally believe he is a good guy now. I may be proven wrong, but … my gut says to trust him since Liz does. I’m glad she kissed him – it fit the moment and the tension between them. I was nothing more than a “thank you” kiss – but it fit! He also sent flowers – ummm….! No – too easy. Also – Sean got the ultimate compliment being called a “real Zero!”

Mikey G’s statement to Max: “I wouldn’t want our leader forming opinions based on what he wants to be true instead of what really is true!” I get the feeling that everyone thinks something is a bit off with Max – but not sure due to the heightened emotions right now! They are ALL vulnerable right now – except Liz – she seems to be the only one not vulnerable. So – this does play into the mindwarping theory!

The Valenti & Max shot is begun through Diamond Shaped windows!

Liz’s phone number is 505-555-0125 – and I love Qfanny’s interpretation of it! I was doing lots of number crunching today for work – and did a quick scan to see how often the numbers 2,3,5 show up – and while 5 does show up frequently – not with the frequency that it does in this show. It has to mean something!

I loved the interchange between Mikey G and Iz – especially the comment about changing ones to hundreds! I though Mikey G was great throughout this episode! I hope he does help Liz – I think that would be a great pairing - and funny, too – they would drive each other nuts in a fun way!

There were 3 clocks behind the Swedish official and the building in question was 4 stories. Mikey G was supposed to pick Maria up at 4 o’clock. The building was torn down in 1994, and 3 people from the Swedish embassy confirmed it!

I thought Liz felt something, maybe got a flash, when she and Max had their confrontation in the hall – and he let go of her arm! That was a very intense moment!

Okay – excuse me – but I thought Observatories were their most BUSY at night?? Where is everyone?? Tess so conveniently show up! Anyone know if the Barnard Star is real??

Maria comments about not knowing if she is alive right now and that Liz needs to stop focusing on this thing that isn’t even there – is another clue that all is not what it seems to be!

Olsen’s number 46-17-84-72-59 – a truly random number? There are over 40,000 Olsens in the Swedish phone book – only Liz would know that!

Bank teller counts “51, 52, 53” totally $2,053.78

The camera angle of Iz and Max in the school lounge was almost like someone was watching them. Ummm….?

“You are the Bad Guy in ALL of this [Max]!” Iz to Max. “This Iz Evans is Dead!” Max would claim that Iz cheatd over the last 3 years.

Liz is sitting on a white fence when Max spots her. She is at the entrance to the City – there is a “Welcome to Roswell” sign in the background! The tension between them was so well played out! There is SO much chemistry between these two – even when they are angry with each other. What Liz says – “I might save their lives….” “Don’t EVEN pull that King CARD on me, Max. I’m NOT Iz. You can’t boss me around!” YOU GO GIRL!! “Somebody killed Alex and covered it up. Why don’t you see that Max? WAKE UP!” The cab number was 3NO6.

When Liz is left standing on the tarmac you can see the plane number is 22DC – and playing in the background is “I will give my Heart, till the end of all … time, forever and a day.” Liz is giving all her heart to this investigation! It is a beautiful picture of Liz standing there with the song in the background! (I just had to ignore what was interlaced with that scene!)

I’m not convince – yet – that the Max/Tex is an illusion, it seemed AWFULLY real to me – but there are so many references to “dreams” that I’m hoping and praying it was a mindwarp! I’m not going to dwell on this disgusting scene because I don’t like to dwell on up-setting things! I still wonder WHY? the observatory was vacant – maybe Star Box is right = and it is an illusion! I guess I will have to wait and see! I know everyone is saying that the observatory is a mindwarp, but I’m not convinced. It seemed awfully real to me – though Max was in a bit of a daze – but no more that a horny guy being led by his power source! If it was a mindwarp – that is one powerful mindwarp! Please don’t let it be real! BUT – I’m going to have to see more evidence that it is NOT real – it is like the Kiss in the rain last season. We have never been able to conclude one way or the other rather it was real or not, and I tend to believe it was real though Max was under some kind of spell. (That is me screaming out of frustration on this one!)

Preview – if you freeze the scene with Tess’ glowing belly, the glow looks like a small handprint! Ummm….! I’m going to have a hard time dealing with – as it looks like everyone else is in the preview – the entire Max/Tess coupling. Look at the looks on Mikey G, Iz and Kyle’s face! I Hope that Liz is away investigating, and thus, spared the gruesome details! I know that Max Thinks that Liz slept with Kyle, but I can hardly wait until he finds out she didn’t! Max deserves a good smack across face! WAKE UP MAX!!

Finally, Tess – she was very icky, creepy in this entire episode! Now – if she is not evil – and we are all wrong – I feel sorry for her, because she is so PATHETIC if she thinks being a “Yes” person and having sympathy sex is going to win Max! And getting pregnant – now that is the oldest trick in the book to “catch” a guy – but it still won’t make Max “love” her – he will only feel obligated, nothing more – and eventually, resentful! And with all the Hybrids can’t get pregnant talk, makes the pregnancy very suspect!! Maybe that is Rosemary’s Baby growing inside her! If she turns out – as I suspect – evil and manipulative – then I hope Liz obtains some wonderful power that allows her to ZAP Tess once and for all!

Star Box – I love that picture of Liz superimposed over Maria! I noticed that in CYN – and think it is so beautiful! Thanks for posting it!!

I’m off to catch up on my reading! SORRY this was so long – I hope I caught a few new things – or reconfirmed what other found! Now off to read other's posts!

Zero
I Shall Believe (for ever and a day)!
The Truth Is Out There! (And only Liz can find it!)

I'm the one who continues to bring up Tic Tac because I believe Tic Tac is still out there and may be a protector watching Liz - and the source of some of Liz's flashes. Tic Tac is a shapeshifter from Season 1 who got his name from the fact that after shapeshifting he used to pop pills that looked like Tic Tacs. He was the one who killed Hank - Mikey G's evil stepdad, he was there when Max and Liz woke up after finding the communicator - smiling at them and telling them it was time to head home, and he impersonated Dr. M (?) - preventing the kids from walking into a trap being set by Pierce. Many think that he and Harding and Nasedo are all one and then same - but not me! I think Tic Tac is still alive and out there somewhere!

Zero

HE'D TITUS
HE'D ITT US
DIET SHUT
DIET THUS
TIED SHUT
TIED THUS
TIDE SHUT
TIDE THUS
EDIT SHUT
EDIT THUS
TED HIT US
TED SHUT I
TED THUS I
TED HUT IS
DUET THIS
THUD SITE
THUD SET I
I'D SET HUT
ID SET HUT
STUD HE IT
STUD THE I
DUST HE IT
DUST THE I
SUD HE ITT
SUD TITHE
SUD THE IT

Happy fishing folks

Liz: Maybe she took him to...I don't even know where...to like another country or another planet.

This just stuck out at me since a couple of us mentioned that we thought Alex might still be alive. Could he be hidden away on another planet? Maybe Khivar has Alex captive on Antar? I could be way off but I have come to trust anything that comes out of Liz's mouth as the absolute truth.

-Loved the arguing scene between Max and Liz when he tries to keep her from getting in the cab. These two have chemistry even when they are fighting.

DUST HE IT
DUST THE I

Happy fishing folks

How about I THE DUST, as in dust=Skins?

First, ITA with all the people that mentioned that the reoccuring conversations about earth being a dream and Max needing to "wake up" are a HUGE clue that his mind is somehow being manipulated. "Waking up" was something that came up continuously throughout the episode; way too often to not mean anything.

Next, I didn't really understand Max and Isabel's confrontation. What was the significance of her burning that piece of paper and saying "Isabel Evans is dead". If Max wanted to do everything he said he would to keep Isabel in Roswell, he still could, even after she denounced him and his leadership. Was she basically saying that even if he managed to keep her in Roswell, she wouldn't be an active part of the podsquad anymore, thus in effect "killing" her alien self and only existing in her human "role"? Or was she actually giving in to Max and saying the exact opposite: that he killed her human role as Isabel Evans and is forcing her to only exist as an alien?

Anyway, back to Liz since that's what this thread is (supposed to be) about.

I just rewatched the two scenes between Max and Liz--where he grabs her arm and where he wants to stop her from getting in the cab. They both play out pretty much the same way. First, Max acts angry and forceful: in the one scene he grabs her arm and in the other he threatens the end of their friendship. Then Liz says something that has an effect on Max: "let go of me" and "wake up". Then Max looks thoughtful and confused like he's thinking "what am I doing" or like he just snapped out of something and is realizing that he's acting strange and that he doesn't really know himself anymore. All together, it sounds like a perfect recipe for a mindwarp that only Liz can help him fight. Maybe that's why the mindwarping is affecting him so much more now that it did in Season 1 (assuming that the whole TLV disaster was a mindwarp): because he doesn't have Liz to bring him back to reality.

As for whose actually doing the mindwarping, I'm a big advocate for the multiple mindwarpers theory. I strongly believe that Tess is one of the warpers but I don't think she's the only one. Leanna=Lonnie would fit in nicely with that.

Speaking of Leanna (sorry this post is getting so long!) I always kind of thought that maybe Alex just manipulated the pictures (he IS very good with computers) to put him and Leanna in front of some backgrounds in Sweden while he was really who-knows-where. That could explain the building--he just pulled a pic of an old Swedish building off the internet and stuck himself in front of it. You can do anything with photo editing programs...

More later.

Yes, me too! If Alex just used some stock photos and manipulated them so as to insert himself, he may not have realized that the building in that photo no longer existed. OR, he could have specifically used it BECAUSE it no longer existed, as another clue for Liz.

Regardless of how/why Alex actually died, I think it's clear that he felt his life was endangered. He specifically left a vague enough trail that not everyone would be able to follow, but would become clear for someone as determined as he knew Liz would be.
~Tas

EVID--I loved how you linked conversation in 4 Square==thats why we won't let her win, so go CHANGE LOL!!!!!

None of those really jumped out at me but maybe one of you guys can see something significant.

I just wonder if Alex told Maria his password before or after he went to Sweden. If it was before then maybe it's nothing, but if it was during of after, we definitely need to keep digging!

Ha ha I'm pregnant?

Zara

'K, off to take out the garbage.

There is a possibility that Tess was programmed by Nasedo or someone else to carry out a mission (going home, destroying the pod squad, etc.). Now, because of her programming, she is being used either knowingly or unknowingly by those enemies for that mission. I really don't think Tess is strong enough on her own. But she's in the perfect position to do harm, either by chance or by choice.

Finally, Tess – she was very icky, creepy in this entire episode! Now – if she is not evil – and we are all wrong – I feel sorry for her, because she is so PATHETIC if she thinks being a “Yes” person and having sympathy sex is going to win Max! And getting pregnant – now that is the oldest trick in the book to “catch” a guy – but it still won’t make Max “love” her – he will only feel obligated, nothing more – and eventually, resentful! And with all the Hybrids can’t get pregnant talk, makes the pregnancy very suspect!! Maybe that is Rosemary’s Baby growing inside her! If she turns out – as I suspect – evil and manipulative – then I hope Liz obtains some wonderful power that allows her to ZAP Tess once and for all!

[/B]

Zero, Thank you!!! I've been thinking the same thing about the pregnancy since the first moment I heard it. We all know the drill. Woman desperate to capture her man makes him think that he's gonna be a daddy and HOPES he'll be a do right kinda guy. Well we all know that Max is the do right kinda guy. Everyone pretty much counts on that 100% of the time in Roswell. Only recently have we been getting a different view of him. The only time Max acts out of character is on account of the snake doing something to him, think TLV and 4S. Even when you think he'd care less, like after seeing Liz with Kyle, you can tell that all he still wants is Liz. He worries over her (WO and in the Hybrid Chronicles), he never BELIEVES that the Kyle incident was real, and the only person he shows any interest in confiding in or being with is Liz. Until the memory retrieval sessions start. Gee, very convient and sounds like the perfect opportunity to start putting subtle mindwarps and suggestions into action, IMO. Realizing that the subtle attempt is only getting her so far because Max still has this instinctual response to reach out to Liz, the snake goes for the desperate move. And we all know it would only take a moment to mindwarp Max into thinking that he had a long intimate sexual encounter with the snake, time is relative not actual. Especially given his state of mind. He so needs to believe that he has someone to hang onto since he thinks he has just lost Isabel and Liz. Notice also given what was probably one of the most devasting moments in his life, he STILL does not go for the snake. She has to come find him to put her plan into action. And SHE WAS WAY CREEPY THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EPISODE!!!! Just like back in TLV and 4S when she was mindwarping all the podsters to she her version of Destiny. She was also ubiquitious, to borrow a term from HOM. Just exactly why was she everywhere that Max was? Because she is working very hard to put her plan into action. Whether that is operation GET MAX or operation GET HOME or some combination of the two still has yet to be revealed. No matter what you can be certain the snake has a plan and at the moment everyone but Liz (and maybe Kyle)is playing into her hands. Which leads us back to Liz. I think one of Liz's powers that will be shown is a much heighten sense of intuition. Luckily for all of us she is smart enough to figure what to do to turn that into facts.

To go back to the Mom-O-Gram, as we have all suspected, Liz will be the one to "See the evil within".

ok my .02

TTFN

Something's bothering me. Boys and girls, this is a lesson in Irony:

Eraser Room Scene: (THEN)(But not so long ago) -Liz, you should go to Sweden. We... (pause) I... hold you back.

(NOW) Max literally, physically, tries to hold Liz back from going to Sweden.

(THEN) -I'll be watching you, Liz Parker, wherever you go.

(NOW) "If you do this (go to Sweden) then our friendship is over.

(THEN) -And I'll be right here waiting for you when you return.

(NOW) - he performs the ultimate act of betrayal.

I don't get it.
-HH

I think so. That is why she never trusted the snake or Nasedo, but Courtney didn't hit her radar. B/C in the end Courtney proved herself to be trust worthy, by dying rather than endanger Michael. Whittaker took a little longer but it really only took one incidence of strange behavior (the overly paranoid reaction to listening to the CD) for Liz to realize something was amiss. Obviously I'm a total Liz fan. But then it was Max's connection to her that started this ball rolling. I have faith that that was for a very specific reason, we just have not learned it yet. So in the meantime theorizing is very interesting.

StarBox YESSSSSS YOU GO GIRL. Dito to everything you said, my thoughts exactly.

Let's not forget she told Liz that Max could go to h*** for all she cared and she said this on season 2. Well I think that's exactly were he is right now and Tess has guided him there. Everyone has an evil seed inside them, human or alien. But most choose to let it lay dormant. Tess has been giving Max's nourishment to grow. I know in the end Max will fight back with his skills and Liz with her knowledge, just like Mom-o-gram's
advise on how to fight the evil with in.

Evid

During the foot rubbing scene with M/T, did that whole scene really freak out anyone else? The whole thing seemed really strange to me, especially Tess's weird facial expressions, first she's all smiles, then when Max says being with her scares him, she looks really sad, and maybe disappointed? Like maybe she thinks her control of Max is slipping? And another thing about this scene, at the beginning of it, Max seemed very robotic, and kept saying Right, Right, Right, he says it repeatedly, which seemed very strange to me.
Speaking of repeated words, how many times through out the episode have we heard 'Wake Up' and there was an awful lot of talk about dreams, and reality, (also mentioned in CYN- Mi/M talking about Matrix- Illusion, Reality, Gunfire) coincidence? I don't think so.

About the discusson of how Max touching Liz affects him, very true. When Max grabbed Liz, and she said let go of me, he looked like he didn't even know he grabed her. This discussion also reminded me of a subject discussed awhile ago on this thread, about how Max and Liz have not touched each other, and have had no skin-to-skin contact since EOTW, (someone also mentioned how in Wipe Out, Isabel tried to grab Liz to console her, but Liz stepped away from her) Many believed this to be because Liz was afraid of them getting a flash and finding out about FMax.(ITA with this)
And lately Max only seems to be himself when he's with Liz.
Also in WO, there seemed to be some connection between Tess and Nicholas. If I remember correctly (I would check but I lent my tape out) it seemed to me that when Tess was mindwarping Nicholas to hide everyone from him (in the Crashdown bathroom, Nicholas seemed like he knew they were there. He got up out of his seat and dropped the glass, and went over to where they were hiding. What exactly is the connection between Tess and Nicholas? And Lonnie and Rath for that matter? Its very suspicious how Niko was the only one who survived Tess's Fire Ball Mind Warp in WO. Tess was also the last one to see Lonnie and Rath (and she was really out of it when Max found her alone there in MITC)This ties into Gracekel's (really great) post about Michael's strange Nasedo comment during ITLAITB. Remember Rath and Lonnie pretended to be Michael and Isabel once before, which was the only other time we've seen Max as mad as he was in ITLAITB. Also, while Lonnie impersonated Isabel Max also uncharacteristically (is that a word?)
grabbed her arm, ala Liz last night.
To me it seems everyone has been acting strange lately. Michael acting so supportive and kind to Maria (which is a good change )and his sudden change of heart about looking for home, Isabel wanting to leave Roswell. I remember how she always used to believe Roswell was home, and how she was so scared of losing her mother in Toy House. Now she wants to get out of Roswell so badly.
I felt her scene with Max last night was really weird- her whole speech about acting perfectly, playing her part in life to a T, and her rather cryptic comment about "This Isabel Evans is dead" kind of gave me the chills.
Can Lonnie, Rath, Nicholas and Tess be behind all this together? Is Tess a willing participant or (hopefully) being controlled by the others? The L/R/N/T union would explain a lot, eliminate Alex, thereby driving a wedge between the aliens and humans, send Liz away, rendering Max weakened, the Tess being pregnant mind warp (I'm hoping), and Max forcing Isabel to stay in Roswell- all used to keep the aliens together, which may be the only way for anyone to get home. And to go home, after all, is all that Lonnie, Rath, Niko and Tess ever really wanted. The way I see it playing out, in the season finale Max and the others will finally discover L/R/N/T's deception. I'm hoping the others have been using Tess without her knowledge, so as not to negate EOTW, and the prophecy that the R4 must be together to stay alive. Or if Tess turns out to be evil, bring in Ava to replace her.

edited to add:
its kind of interesting how Niko or whoever's behind all this (if there is anyone behind all this) manipulated the podsquad- they gave Michael the family and sense of belonging he's always wanted (in Maria and Amy DeLuca) and brought them closer together, but took Isabel and Liz away from Max, and turned them against each other, essentilaly taking his family away from him, and killed Alex leaving Is and Max feeling guilty, and sending Liz on a trail to Sweden, leaving the three aliens sufficiently distracted and vulnerable.

sorry this was so long, and if it didn't make sense.

GraceKel: I too felt the whole park scene with Max & Michael seemed very reminiscent to the S&B Nacedo & Max scene. I think it means something!! Could it be possible that Nacedo really isn't dead?? Maybe his death was all an illusion to make everyone feel sorry for Tess -- humanize her a bit!! I feel that Nacedo turned into Michael to push Max into Tess's arms as well as cause a rift between Michael & Max - once again!! Michael had really NO EMOTION during this entire scene, did he??

Tika: I really don't want to watch that scene again, but you could be on to something.

The Dreamer heart in me has come up with a spec that could cheer me up a bit. You all have commented how Max seemed to come out of the warp when Liz shouted "let go of me". He was shocked and appalled that he could do this!! Could he be thinking something is amiss?? Or is he that out of it?? When their conversation at the fence really escalated, Liz slammed the car door and asked "somebody killed Alex, why can't you see that?? WAKE UP!!" ------- is it possible that Max "woke up" and realized that there is something wrong going on?? Could he be suspicious of Tess now and is trying to see what she is up to?? Could he be "playing" her game to figure out what is going on??

I know, I know - I'm reaching here!! I just want our Max back and have Liz "save" him from all this treachery!!

I look forward to seeing what you all think about this!!

I've been thinking about Future Max a lot lately. I can't remember who brought up the point of WHY he returned to that
particular time. He said that they needed to change the future with
surgical precision, which means that the moment of his appearance was
very carefully chosen. After deliberating about it, I finally figured
out why then. He needed to stop the premature cementing of Max & Liz's
relationship, BUT he arrived late enough in said relationship that they
had already begun the bonding process. In other words, late enough that
it was not possible to truly make Max fall out of love with Liz, or the
reverse.

If his goal had been the annihilation of their relationship, there would
have been much better times to arrive (assuming that letting Liz die isn't an option). He couldn't have arrived right after the healing,
Liz would not have known Max well enough to be able to trust FMax. But
what about after Balance? Or any time before SH, really? FMax could
have detailed the events in BD to get Liz to trust him, instead of in
EOTW, for example. I think that the whole point was to DELAY the cementing, not stop
it. I think the Future versions chose the latest possible moment so
that they could ensure the continuation/revival of their relationship.

I Shall Believe
~Tas

quote:Anyone know if the Barnard Star is real??Barnard's star is real. It is notable for three things:
1) It has the largest proper motion (angular motion relative to the background stars). It moves about half the angular diameter of the moon per century.
2) It is the second nearest star (about 6 light-years), which helps explain (1).
3) It was once claimed to wobble (as Tess said). This wobble, being attributed to planets, aroused much interest as the first such evidence of planets around stars other than our own. But the claim now seems dubious -- other astronomers found no actual wobble, only some appearance thereof, which was traced to measurement errors.

I wonder how many of Tess's other claims are more apparent than real....

References: http://www.hao.ucar.edu/public/research/stare/search.html http://astrosun.tn.cornell.edu/courses/astro101/1998/lecture08/sld005.htm

Ok your going to think that I've lost it but all this talk about waking up and what is real got me thinking of a WILD theory.
I was listening to the song Brave New World, this song was playing when Max stoped Liz outside the Crashdown at the end of S&B. These lyrics stuck out: I hope to see you on the other side, for now I'm sitting at the table wishing I was able, stable.
To me this sounds like Max is telling Liz goodbye for now.
So what happened as soon as Max left, he went to bed, Nasdio came to his window and died. Then Max took off running to the CD. When I first saw Max running on the promo I thought he was dreaming. Well what if he is still dreaming and Nasido never came to the window. Yes I know, JK would never pull a Bobbie on Dalles stunt. But if this theorie is sound, this would wipe the slate clean. Max did say this is what he wanted to do on ITL/ITB. Take a look at some info I found on Dreams and Reincarnation.

Within each of us is a composite soul, that is, all of those people who were incarnate, in past lives under different ego identities, but sharing the same soul. This is a summation of the theory of reincarnation. There will never be another you, however the memories of those past incarnate egos, remains in the soul's composite memory. These past life memories are accessible in the dream state.
In the dream state, which is in itself an altered state, there is no delineation called time. Time is a man-made idea to keep track of events. Therefore, you may actually see a person in a dream, who you feel represents you, but looks very different than you do in your present life. What you may be experiencing is a recall of a past ego life, which in some way affects your present life. It may be your karmic task to straighten out what was done by the past life ego of another era. Since you share the same soul, their problems, their trials and tribulations, are part of your own plan.

On the positive side, you also have gained from the positive progression of a former ego, and a dream may "remind" you of this factor, thereby assisting you in a current life situation. An example of this would be: A past life ego learned how to be diplomatic in a confrontation experience. The current ego may now be in a similar situation and was thinking about this dilemma before going to sleep. A dream calls up the past situation, depicted in that past time and place, but shows the dreamer how it was once handled successfully. The person awakens thinking "of course, that's what I have to do."

Dreams also form "double exposures" that is, you see yourself, though perhaps your eyes are a different color, your hair longer and curlier, etc., but you still look pretty much the same and have the strong feeling that this dream character is really you. It most likely is...in composite form, combined with a past life ego's appearance. This lap over of egos may be occurring because both you and the past life ego did something exactly the same way, whether it was positive or negative.

Reincarnation dreams are peeks into the past in order to make yourself a better future as well as progress your soul. Heed the positive messages, for if you do not, history will repeat itself, and your soul will have to do it all over again in the next life.

Evid

I think that Liz needs to find out that Isabel wants to leave so she can have a heart to heart with her!

redhawk—noticed you said you were going to start clicking your heels together. Thought I would post an “article” I wrote on the whole issue. Here it is:

Click. Click. Click.
“I Still Believe.”
“I Still Believe.”
“I Still Believe.”

Keeping my eyes closed, I click my heels together and wish with all my heart that I could be taken back in time to a Roswell I knew and loved.
I open my eyes to see Liz kissing Sean Deluca. I frantically shut my eyes even tighter and chant
“There’s no place like Roswell. There’s no place like Roswell.”
There’s no place like the Roswell I came to cherish where I could join in Liz’s journey in leaving normal to fall in love with a boy that happens to be an alien. This boy who loves Liz, has always loved her and would never do anything to hurt her. Just like Liz, I could never look at the stars in the sky the same way again. I fell along with Liz and saw that there was such a thing as a soul mate. Max and Liz were meant to be.
Roswell was a place where I could enjoy the innocent musings of a 16-year old girl and see through her eyes what drives the 3 aliens that were thrust into her life. Each week I was propelled into a world that I couldn’t wait to enter.
Forget about narcotic poppies, give me Roswell Season One any day! With that drug you gave me hope, joy, love, heartache, trust, friendship and laughter. No other combination could ever give me that surreal feeling that makes me bubble up with giddiness.
I risk the inescapable again: I open my eyes to see yet another tragedy: Max and Tess are kissing? I shut my eyes in disgust and like Maria “control my urge to spew.” What happened to Roswell? Did a tornado strike which lead me and my surroundings into an inevitable spiral into a TV void? Why did Dorothy want to leave Oz if it was in Technicolor? So I ask the same question: why would TPTB want to depart from such an enchanting show?
Was there a witch in Roswell that was out to get Liz? Most Dreamers might cheer an astounding “Yes!” Or maybe Liz was running from past memories that swarm around the Pod Squad like flying monkeys, which can only make them crazy.
Somewhere over the rainbow is a town where the smallest of small town girls fell in love and always follows her heart where ever it takes her. And in this place, these two soul mates, together, will help me feel at home in a world I could understand and love once more.
Just as Dorothy had the scarecrow, tin man and the cowardly lion, I have Jason Katims, the writers and the TPTB respectively. And I ask “If they only had a brain?” “If they only had the heart.” And worse of all “If they only had the nerve.” The answers are: I know they had a brain because how could they create such a magical show and not have the intelligence. I know they can have the heart. How else could they create such a poetic love story? The only snag is courage. TPTB had a show that was different and instead of standing by this wonderfully unique show they were afraid and decided to cower and cheapen the show!
Is Jason Katims the Wizard of Roswell, that can help lead us all to the desired place? Will he show us the way to a place we like to call home, a place called Roswell? As I sit here pondering this question, I know the only thing I can do is to have faith, because I Still Believe. TPTB have the power in themselves to transport us back to that endearing place.
My deepest desire is that I will wake up from a fevered sleep and exclaim to those around me
“There’s no place like Roswell. Oh there’s no place like Roswell.”

This "pad" is really intentionally shown - go rewatch the scene - I promise - it will make you scream too!

BTW - THANKS to Evid and Xenutia and everyone else who posted dialouge from last season. It is SO cool to see how the dialouge has a double meaning in light of recent events.

Zero - my son has little video about nightmares and being afraid (in this case of scary toys)in it they say "just say to yourself - that toy isnt real, that toy isnt real" My son says this ALL the time now - so just repeat "that sex isnt real, that sex isnt real, that sex isnt real"
Think about it - how is the season going to end - with Max going home with Tess to live happily ever after on Antar with their little alien baby??? I dont think so.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

The pattern on the Red Cab that Liz took to the airport had black and white checker patterns as you would find on a chess board.
Zero – I also made the Topolsky – guidance counselor – guidance office – Sweden trip connection! Great minds think alike With regard to the flowers from the Olsens and the proximity of the people who actually sent them – isn’t there usually a wake/viewing the day or evening before a funeral? Just because we didn’t see one during the ep doesn’t mean it didn’t occur. And isn’t it usually for the wake/viewing that the flowers are delivered (then they are transported to the burial site along with the body)? This could mean that the people who sent them knew about the “accident” within one day.
Qfanny – Thanks for the anagram listing! That is pretty much what I fell asleep doing on Monday evening. Hey, some people count sheep – I rearrange “I The Stud” into a million combinations
GraceKel – I noticed the “SS” in lights at the park. Of course, it could just be the result of spiraling the cord around a pillar, but I like to think that it is a “hidden” message Also, even though the first letters don’t match, the sound does (for your list of double letter word list) – psycho stalker

Ok, back to work

rostan, your observation that I THE STUD can be changed to I THE DUST gave me chills.

Tas, I've been thinking about FM's surgical precision a lot myself. Could part of the intent also have been to prevent Tess from cementing with Kyle? They were on the verge... Maybe Kyle wouldn't have developed his powers on his own if he were wrapped up with her. I'm anxious to see what they do with his character now. I'm also wondering if in FM and FL's time, Ava was killed very quickly after Max and Liz cemented.

Evid, THAT'S IT! You've found the only way the writers can redeem themselves! Max wakes up, runs to find Nacedo and insists upon getting more answers. Then we'll be primed for Season 3!!

Starbox, wow. I can't believe how right you are about Tess's room. Something really big is going on with all this. Don't feel too bad about the comforter, I mean, no one EVER said Tess has bad taste...
-HH

Good point! Triple whammy--not only did they lose Tess, but they didn't have 2 power-charged humans either! That could totally turn the tide in a war.

quote:Starbox, wow. I can't believe how right you are about Tess's room. Something really big is going on with all this. Don't feel too bad about the comforter, I mean, no one EVER said Tess has bad taste...

ITA, StarBox! Tess has great taste, just bad methods I wish it were Friday already so I could tape this ep; I really need to rewatch it! The first time around I'm always watching too emotionally to pick up on a lot
~Tas

*cough*T*cough*

Barnard's Star

constellation: Ophiuchus
spectral type: M3.8
distance: 5.97 Light Years
absolute visual magnitude +13.4.
luminosity 0.0031 Sol
mass 0.12 - 0.16 Sol
diameter, 224,000 km (0.12 Sol)
surface temperature: 3200 K.
planets: possible; but none detected so far

Also cataloged as Munich 15040 or LFT 1385, Barnard's Star was discovered in 1916 by E.E. Barnard to have the largest known proper motion of all stars, 10.29 arc seconds per year, by comparing photographic plates obtained in 1894 and 1916, and later tracing it back to 1888 in E. Pickering's plate archive. This star moves apparently fast between the background stars in Ophiuchus, needing only about 350 years for 1 degree, in almost exactly North direction (Burnham gives a position angle of 356 degrees).

This star is the second nearest to our Solar System at 5.97 light years, only triple star Alpha Centauri is closer. From this distance, it follows that the fast apparent motion corresponds to an unusually high velocity. In addition, this star is approaching us rapidly at 87 miles per second, so that the combination of both indicates a space velocity of of about 103 miles per second. According to Burnham, the star will reach a minimum distance of less then 4 light years in about 8,000 years, when its proper motion will have reached 25 arc seconds per year and its brightness will be about magnitude 8.6.

Barnard's star is a red main-sequence dwarf of apparent visual magnitude 9.56 and absolute visual magnitude +13.4. Its luminosity is only about 1/2500 that of our sun. According to Burnham, J.C. Duncan has estimated the star's mass as 16 percent that of our sun, and its diameter at 224,000 km (140,000 miles) or about 1/6 that of our sun. Its spectral type indicates that Barnard's Star is cool: Only about 3200 K.

It was longly tried to investigate this star's motion for perturbations due to planet-sized companions, and P. van de Kamp had announced the discovery of the presence of at least one planet of 1.5 times the mass of Jupiter at a separation of 2.4 arc seconds, or 4 Astronomical Units. However, after a decade-long discussion, this discovery could still not be verified, and more recent observations with the Hubble Space Telescope have not yet given evidence of any large planet near this star.

Ophiuchus

Abbreviation:
Oph
English name:
Serpent Holder

Mythological Background:
There are several stories who Ophiuchus is thought to represent: He might be King Karnabon of Seythia. Ceres gave order to Triptolemus to teach humanity in how to grow grain. King Karnabon showed friendly hospitality when Triptolemus came to him, but after a short while he changed his attitude completely and tried to kill Triptolemus. To prevent his flight Karnabon killed the dragon which pulled the wagon of T. Yet Ceres sent immediately another dragon and let Karnabon kill himself. To keep the memory of his cruelity alive she placed him next to the dragon on the sky (Hyginus, Astron. lib.II.c.14) On the other hand there is a story that Ophiuchus is Hercules, slaing a giant snake near the river Sagaris in Lybia. He is also thought to be Triopas, who destroyed a temple of Ceres. He was punished with hunger and finally with even that snake (or dragon) clinching him permanently (Ap. Hyginus, Poeticon Astronomicum l.II.14). Some see him for Phorbas who had slain that very dragon on the island Rhodos (Polyzelos Rhodius ap. eumd.l.c.) Another story gives him as Aeskulapius, healing and revitalising Glaukus, son of Minos, after he was bitten by a snake (Hyginus l.c.Cf. Erastothenes Catasterismi 6).

Sorry this is so long!!

Nice ideas. Here's what I was thinking, these "pictures" were taken PRIOR to Alex knowing who Leanna was (Lonnie?)? I'm thinking maybe this Leanna chic took Alex to a dimension that Alex thought was Sweden (heck, I would think I was in Paris if everyone was French and saying I was in Paris - since I've never been there) and then he eventually found out/figured out/was told that it was NOT Sweden. At that point, he came back (I'm sure there are some things that happened in there, but this is the abbreviated version) and kept the picture as a memory. But.. that would explain his, "Everything is a lie" comment. Plus, maybe all the food was cold in Other-Dimension-Sweden . We know aliens eat tabasco with everything. Yuck!

Oh, how fitting!! Serpent as in ?! Just like T to point THAT out!!

Again – I want to welcome all the newbies and lurkers that have been joining into the discussion! It is wonderful to read your thoughts!

Thanks Nemo and SK for the info on the Barnard Star. Doesn’t seem that relevant – I was wondering if there was something significant about it since it was the star that Tess chose to show Max – other than she seemed to know that you could see the star from their alien home planet.

Alexis – Excellent thoughts! Very creative! I guess you could say we are currently on a Journey - following the yellow brick road!

Star Box – The Tex isn’t real! The Tex isn’t real! (God – I hope so!!) I do agree that there is no way I believe the Pod Squad will be heading home to Antar! Liz has to stop them!

Aldebaran – I think whomever set up this “Sweden” trip went to great lengths to make it appear Real – and the Olsen connection is just one of the clues. It is quite an elaborate deception when you think about it! Think of the effort Liz has had to put forth to poke holes in it – quite an elaborate scheme! If Tess is involved – there is NO WAY she could have done this all herself. She is just not THAT smart or clever. Deceptive and manipulative, Yes! Clever, intelligent and thorough, No!

I like the “Study It” anagram myself! It would make the most sense to Liz – maybe there is a connection to School or another School – and the computers there?? I do think that one clue will lead to another. And while Liz is investigating Alex’s computer – she should go through his e-mails from around that time – that is a huge source of information now a days when doing investigations. Computers are often confiscated not only to see what is on the hard drive – but to see who they person has been communicating with!

I guess I have to be patient for Monday night!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
The Truth Is Out There! (And only Liz can find it – and save the day!)

Steph I'm sorry i just HAD to *high five* you on that comment ! Way to go!

quote:Originally posted by aldebaran:
in between Max and Liz (when she is giving him the "what the heck were you thinking" look and he looks appalled at his actions), there is a partially covered poster that says "Junior As$".

Yup... thats a CHAD if I ever saw one It should have said SENIOR As$

Ok...I have to re-read these last posts just wanted to add my .00002

Oh, and during the whole last scene of ITLAITB I was trying to imagine it was Max and Liz!! It didn't work

I couldn't either but I did want to mention the song: "I Will Love you" It did scream Max and Liz to me.

It talks about the Sun and the moon. There again a reference to the SUN. I haven't really thought it through at this point but just the way they went back and forth frm M/T to Liz. It really glared out at me. I know you guys can come up with something that I couldn't!

Except that to me, it was reminding us that Max and Liz will love each other forever no matter what.

Thank you for pointing out Tess's reference to the "infamous" kiss. I think Max must have put a LOT of space between the two of them afterward. That's probably why they haven't discussed it until well into the next week and foot-massage. -HH

Thank you for pointing out Tess's reference to the "infamous" kiss. I think Max must have put a LOT of space between the two of them afterward. That's probably why they haven't discussed it until well into the next week and foot-massage. -HH

Okay - sorry if this is too ego-driven for most of you - but ...

Back to work!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
The Truth Is Out There! (And only Liz can find it - and save the Pod Squad!)

PS - I may not be back for a few hours - so if we get to 250 posts - be patient for the new thread!

Now to the subject at hand. I agree with everyone's opinion on Iz & Micheal somewhat strange behavior. When Iz called Max "little brother" that made me think of Lonnie. I didn't catch that until someone said something about it. Micheal's comment I caught immediately though.
I don't know what to think about it. I'm pretty certain they're not really Nseado & Lonnie though. It just doesn't fit. I do think Iz's comment was more of "You're my little brother & I WILL beat your a@@ if you push me!"
Most of the confusion will be explained in 3 more episodes from what I've. J. Katims wrote the SF so it WILL be good & tie up some loose ends. Some, not all.

Now to the subject at hand. I agree with everyone's opinion on Iz & Micheal somewhat strange behavior. When Iz called Max "little brother" that made me think of Lonnie. I didn't catch that until someone said something about it. Micheal's comment I caught immediately though.
I don't know what to think about it. I'm pretty certain they're not really Nseado & Lonnie though. It just doesn't fit. I do think Iz's comment was more of "You're my little brother & I WILL beat your a@@ if you push me!"
Most of the confusion will be explained in 3 more episodes from what I've heard. J. Katims wrote the SF so it WILL be good & tie up some loose ends. Some, not all.

Now to the subject at hand. I agree with everyone's opinion on Iz & Micheal somewhat strange behavior. When Iz called Max "little brother" that made me think of Lonnie. I didn't catch that until someone said something about it. Micheal's comment I caught immediately though.
I don't know what to think about it. I'm pretty certain they're not really Nseado & Lonnie though. It just doesn't fit. I do think Iz's comment was more of "You're my little brother & I WILL beat your a@@ if you push me!"
Most of the confusion will be explained in 3 more episodes from what I've heard. J. Katims wrote the SF so it WILL be good & tie up some loose ends. Some, not all.

Zero!
Im can bet - in last ep. are many hints to Liz's Mythology thread and to your name too!
Im thinking they send to you salute!
-------------
sry.gram.

Now all we have to do is figure out what the Destiny plan is, and we're home free!

If Max or Tess decided to leave Roswell, Isabel would try to convice them to stay. She may not like Max's method, but I understand his rationale.

When "Pierce" first enters the crashdown, in Skin & Bones, he makes a crack about "those little Pod People". Was this used on FF as well?

In Independance Day, Michael wants to leave, with no forwarding address. They let him.

I'm here and posting because Evid thought you guys might like to read something I posted over on the Cherishing thread. It's not as deep and intense as some of your stuff, but I hope you enjoy it. It's also more about Max than Liz, but Liz is in there.

Here's what I posted:

Tasyfa - Great start and interesting choice of title. Max is as confused and unlike himself as Hamlet was. I only wish that I believed he was pretending in order to catch the enemy like Hamlet was to catch Claudius. I believe he's not himself because of Tess. The way she keeps popping up where he is. The looks she has on her face when Max explodes. The way he seems to be in a fog, not realizing what he's doing sometimes. I think he's mindwarped.

To be or not to be seems to be the question posed. To be human and on earth, with Liz. Or to not be human, to be alien, on Antar, with Tess. However, when Tess presents it this way, as so black and white, she's missing the point. Life is not black and white. It is a never ending shade of grey, some places darker, some lighter. They were sent to Earth as hybrids for a reason. They are not meant to be fully alien. Their human feelings are essential. All that stands in Vilandra's path is Isabel Evans and her human attachments and emotions. Take away the human and you are left with a repeated past, a wasted chance at redemption.

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?

Balance. This is what River Dog told them was so important. They can't just sit back and do nothing. But they also can't go out and fight and then expect it to be over. It will never end. The only way they can make it through everything is to work together. I think Michael is beginning to understand the balance that is needed. Why? Maria. She is helping him learn and supporting him. She has given him a center and a focus. Max needs Liz to balance him. There wasn't a balance earlier because I think he wasn't accepting his alien self. His time apart from Liz has helped him to deal with that half. But it does not mean he should embody it entirely, to become what he was in his past life. This is why Tess is wrong for him. She wants his human side gone. He needs both to survive.

To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub; For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause: there's the respect That makes calamity of so long life; For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
<snip>
When he himself might his quietus make With a bare bodkin?

Hamlet here contrasts dreams and the mortal coil. I think this can be applied to what Tess was saying. She was stating the opposite. That the mortal coil is the dream. But what will happen if Max continues to follow this path? What will happen if he throws off his human side, the mortal coil? Tess calls this waking up. But is it? I hope he indeed lets this question give him pause. Who knows what awaits him on his planet? If it is not a dream, what is it? Will he really escape all of his problems, or be able to end them? Whatever the answer, he needs to be prepared. He needs a cohesive team. And by following the path he's on, discovering the bossy domineering alien that exists when the human part is gone, he's only causing the group to fall apart.

It's not as easy to "wake-up" as Tess would have him believe. Her "reality" is a past life that fell to pieces. Why does she want to reclaim that? Remember yes, because only through knowledge can they keep the past from repeating itself. But reclaim? Max cannot easily find answers by just focusing on his past. If it were that easy, wouldn't he have done it earlier? Why go through the suffering of losing Liz and Alex if it was just easier to succeed by returning to the past, to abandon his human side? The truth he needs to "wake up" to is that they need to be a cohesive team of human and aliens. This doesn't just mean the humans and the aliens. It means the human and alien parts of himself need to work together. He needs to wake up to the destruction around him and deal with it in a constructive manner (rather than denying Alex was murdered because that's what he wants to believe).

Tess can not help him achieve this. But Liz can. She is his balance. She embodies both the alien (let's not forget she was changed by his powers, something we might never have known if not for FMax and the Dupes) and the human. And Liz needs Max as well. She is strong, but she cannot find Alex's killer alone. She cannot be isolated either.

Ok, so I'm going to stop now because it's late, I'm rambling, and I'm not sure if any of this made any sense. Hopefully some of it did.

If this is true for Deluca's Sean too ... then Im understanding Liz compleatly.
Liz needed help and support now!
---------
sry.gram.

Zero - I TOTALLY think the writers were tipping their hat to the Liz Mythers and our fearless leader

OT - this thread has a TON of lurkers - I cant count how many requests for spoilage about Loose Ends I have gotten. :waving: to all the lurkers out there

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Zero - I TOTALLY think the writers were tipping their hat to the Liz Mythers and our fearless leader

OT - this thread has a TON of lurkers - I cant count how many requests for spoilage about Loose Ends I have gotten. :waving: to all the lurkers out there

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I am posting this from RATDG, a quote from Jade Jaguar

- when Liz was referring to a Swiss Army knife, I wonder if it was the one Max gave her back. That would have been funny

Lately I've been thinking that you might've been right all along. Max
Lately I've been thinking I might've been wrong. Michael
Alex (OWOBIMCN) says: Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

LOL! Did you notice that "Lately I've been thinking" is a Liz's journal formula? LOL

If you have a thought you might want to wait until the new thread is up, that way more people will see it.

Welcome.

Edited to celebrate my 400th post.

New thread is at http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/007266.html

if you'd like to be one of my agents over this summer, email me at maxcedo@hotmail.com

Moderators, please lock the thread.

Zero, let me know if you want me to edit anything off of the new thread.

maxcedo