There is never a dull moment on this thread – especially recently! We appreciate the new episodes to digest – especially with the refocus on Liz’s importance to the storyline! (Thank you JK and RM! ) Even though Heart of Mine, Cry Your Name, It’s Too Late & It’s Too Bad, Baby It’s You, Off The Menu and Departure have many inducing scenes, we have been provided tons of stuff to chat about and dissect! !! Plus – we have seen so many newbies joining into the discussion - which is wonderful!

Feedback is always welcome! Just PM me. I will let you know when I up-date the Introduction so you can head over there to read the new information when I add it in.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Background

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY!

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz's importance to the pod squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! (Especially lately!) We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember – NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome!

Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection

Consequence of the Connection - the Change?

Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really?

Granolith - How does it fit in?

Destiny - Liz and Max!

Follow Your Heart

Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

Chakras

Einstein's Light Cone

Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV

The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up!

The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things?

The Catalyst - Liz!

Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in?

Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run"

Hero Journey - Liz's Path

I wanted to add that I believe the events of the last few episodes (especially, HOM, CYN and ITL&ITB, and some of OTM and Departure) play right into Liz’s Hero Journey!

Grandma Claudia - the first connection?

I just wanted to add here that many of us believe the fact that the necklace Liz wore to the Prom had been Grandma Claudia’s is VERY SIGNIFICANT! Finally, a tie into GC, her Native American connection and Season 1! Now – if we could only figure out “what” the necklace was! Maybe this was a foreshadowing that GC will be the connection to the aliens that we always thought she was/is! And the computer guys from the UNM commenting that the alien symbols look Native American in origin – with Michael getting Season 1 flashbacks – was GREAT! But – unfortunately, we are going to have to wait until Season 3 to see if this all plays out!

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Don’t let the current state of affairs (pun intended!) concern you – Liz and Max are soulmates and lifebond! The Truth Is Out There! And Liz will find it! (Even Maria agrees with that!) And though Liz did figure it all out in time to “save the day” for the Pod Squad – the question of whether Max’s actions irreparably damaged their connection is still hanging out there – and how will Liz deal with not only the revelation that Max had a relationship with Tess, but that there is a baby out there that is the product of that relationship? Talk about bad choices!

Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection?

Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars!

Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Numbers keep cropping up that seem to fall into our 2, 3, 4, 5 groupings. Like the bus that Liz misses is 33_5, the bowling alley lane is 32, Max remembers 3 moons, Alex’s funeral and the concert is on 5/5 and the song at the end of Cry Your Name mentions the number 3! Also, the truck driver had 1 drink, 3 hours before! There is no way that this is just a coincidence! I will try to add as many of the numbers caught to the Intro that I can – but let’s just say that there has to be a meaning to the reoccurrence of the numbers – especially 5! Liz’s cell number is 505-555-0125! (and as Qfanny so intelligently pointed out .125 =1/8th – Ummm…! In BIY – Iz runs “5 or 6” miles now? And “Ray” was seen by his roommate at 4 am, they were the only 2 people around and they were only 5 feet away from each other. Alex’s dorm at UNM was in “Quad 4.” In Departure, the number 67 is prominent in Kyle’s room – any reference to the fact that after Alex’s death, there were 7 Scooby’s, but with Tess’ betrayal, there were actually only 6 true members of the Scooby Gang?

Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz?

Skins - What lies below the surface?

We keep wondering where Nicko disappeared to – and Lonnie, Rath and Ava for that matter. Is it just a matter of time before Kivar shows up? Many of us thought that Tess was up to her “old” tricks of mindwarping – or mind control as Liz so aptly asked about – but was Tess acting alone? Most of us think not! Tess’ actions were the result of a deal Harding made with Kivar 40 years ago, but they also resulted in the death of Alex. But why did she feel she needed to warp Alex into deciphering the book? I still believe there is more to it because of the elaborateness of the deception! And, was the sex/baby real? All indications point to it, BUT the mind control and the power of illusion could play in it all be a hoax to convince the Pod Squad they had to go home, and Tess ultimate “card” to convince Max to let her go without being harmed.

Shapeshifters - Are there more than one?

Remember – Harding and Nasedo and Tic Tac are NOT all one and the same shapeshifter! I still believe that Tic Tac is out there watching over Liz!

Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation

Mythology!

Dates

Dates seem to be of extreme interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research. If you find a date I’ve missed or see one that is wrong – PM me with the change and where you got your information! I’m always looking for new dates!

New dates added include:

6/21/1084 – Alex’s Birthdate listed on his grave stone (Departure)
1994 – Date the building in the Leanna and Alex picture was torn down (ITLITB)
12/9/2000 – Alex’s Departure for Sweden (ITLITB)
1/16/2001 – Date Leanna computer file/document created by Alex (ITLITB)
1/18/2001 – Date Alex and Leanna were supposed to be traveling to the Baltic Islands – where the mysterious building supposedly existed (ITLITB)
1/28/2001 – Alex’s Return from Sweden date (ITLITB)
4/27/2001 – Roswell Prom & Date Liz begins to start writing in her Journal again. (Heart of Mine)
4/29/2001 – Alex date of death listed on his grave stone (Departure)
5/3/2001 – Alex is killed. (Cry Your Name)
5/4/2001 – Kyle’s Birthday (18th?) (Cry Your Name)
5/5/2001 – Alex Whitman’s funeral (Cry Your Name)

In Summary

Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff, crew or UPN reads this or the Intro), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!"

To have the opportunity for a Season 3 on UPN is WONDERFUL, and this show has the potential to be another “X-files” with intimate relationships IF done right! BUT PLEASE – Get rid of the “90210” storylines – if we want a soap opera, we will turn on “Days of Our Lives”!

A couple of general "rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed – I can’t emphasize this enough as we move towards the season finale), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions/preview and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. If you know what a preview “really means” due to spoilers, please DON’T tell us – let us speculate – we will find out soon enough! And discussion of the new book “Loose Ends” is now okay that the season is over – though you might hold some stuff back for those of us who still have to read it! Thanks!

As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz whose life ended too soon - said - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)! Liz found the TRUTH, and will avenge his death! (Tess – beware – you have no idea what you have released in the B*#@h!

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Shiri holding our folder (thanks QFanny!):

The most compelling visual evidence of Liz's mythology and connection to Max is the fact that when they come together - they often form the symbol on the orb found in Sexual Healing. Max gives Liz the necklace with this symbol on it in Departure:

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Hey Mythologer's
Well I too saw Departure earlier today via the internet. It was much better on my TV screen.

I'm very disappointed that the baby is real and that next season will probably be about Max looking for his baby. I'm also disappointed that the FMax stuff didn't come out. I was also hoping the granilith would turn out to be more than what it was. I know that FMax said that it could be motified for time travel, perhaps more motifications can occur that will cause it to do other things.

Things I found interesting,

Right after Michael tells Maria that the reason she never got flashes when they kissed was because he was never open to her. Then a few scenes later Max and Liz kiss, but no flashes. And interesting that Tess did get flashes from him when they kissed. Could be a sign that at some point Max is closed down to Liz, but was now open to Tess due to the baby etc., And I guess the reason why Max wasn't opened to Liz is because a lot has happened between them and it's going to take a long time for them to rebuild to what they had, if they decide to rebuild.

Max giving Liz the pendant could have some significance, but what. I don't know at this point.

And what was the purpose of Tess mindwarping Alex?? To decipher the destiny book right. Why?? The only thing we learned about the destiny book was how to use the granilith. I'm sure if Tess would've went to the podsters and the humans (approaching the subject properly) they all could've pitched in to help decipher the book. What exactly was she trying to hide from Max?? If it was something in the book, I would think the podsters would have found it when reading the translation, unless Tess made sure certain parts of the translation where not put in the notebook.

And how did Tess mindwarp Alex for 2 months all the way from Roswell. That would be alot of frowning faces for 2 months??

And the deal that Nasedo made, why would Tess be safe back on Antar, but the others wouldn't be. Is Tess Khivar's sister or was she a skin in her previous life???

And what does Khivar want with Max's son?? Does he want to raise him to be the puppet King that he wanted Max to be and later use him against Max here on Earth.

Also I find it hard to believe now that the baby was sick. Notice after Kyle starts remembering what happened the night Alex died and Tess erased his memory, she get's no more attacks from the baby being sick. That whole baby being sick story I feel was all a ploy to get the others off the planet.

Anyways,
Loved Liz in this episode. I was disappointed with her going to Sean and almost taking things too far with him, but I'm glad she had the good sense to stop herself. That's our smart Liz, always thinking straight. And she figured out who killed Alex. She's definitely the one with the brains and intuition in this group.

I can't believe that after everything - Liz (Departure)

Ken McRee - I think Liz uses the dye when looking at Max's cells. I too will have to go back and watch the Pilot.

I can't believe that after everything....Liz

I havent been able to fit in EOTW - unless - the son is somehow going to be the key to their planet's salvation. I do think it will be possible to tie it all together because I DONT think JK "changed his mind" about Tess - I think she has always had this agenda - so I think he knows where it is all going.
I will say that I HATE it that there is a baby - I HATE it that the TEX was real (even though I do think it is abundantly clear that Max was being manipulated from OTM on)

As for the Sean scene - it was totally believable to me - although it BUGS me that they played creepy sci-fi music while it was happeneing. Please dont make Sean the "Tess" of season 3. Still - you find out your true love slept with the and got her pregnant and is leaving forever - revenge sex is not an uncommon phenomenon - luckily Liz is smart enough to stop.

I have transcribed the dislouge from the last scene because I think it is important.
It shows that Tes is not being truthful - even in the end - and - I think it implies that she was NEVER loved - not even on Antar.
I also think it implies that he "motive" MAY be the revenge of a jealous wife. Lilith vs. Eve once again. IF she had been loved - ever - Nasedo would not have made a deal for her to betray and heve Max killed. She would have never gone along with such a deception.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I think Sean was helping to maintain the brain fix on Mrs. DeLuca. When Kyle snapped out of the brain fix he was back to normal from then on. Mrs. D got re-erased right there in the kitchen while Maria and Liz were in the room. The Pod squad was already at the granilith; we assume Liz and Maria were alone in the house with Mrs. D, but Sean lives there too... Where was Sean?

***** My note - I find it interesting that Tess never says Max loved her or wanted to marry her - even when asked. In fact - she implies the contrary - that she was never loved at all - evidence supporting the theories of a political union and of Tess's likely biological connection to Khivar - his daughter or his sister perhaps************

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I just have to say LIZ RULES!!!!! But then again we already knew that. The girl is awesome, she figures out everything. Where would the podsters be without her? Dead! They better never forget that. I want to see a great deal of respect for Liz from the podsters next season or they will all be on my S#@t-list. Have to chuggle at Micheal trying to take credit for Liz and Maria's Alex discovery and the DB translation. Well I guess he can if he wants, because I'm betting that what the podsters have now is only part of the story. I'm sure that Tess would have prevented any tasty bits about Liz's role in the alien mythology for seeing the light of day. The selfish evil mindwarping would never give Max any amunition to confirm Liz's importance to him and endanger herself and her goal of stealing the baby.

Can I just say YUCK that it looks like the tex and baby was real. I am still holding out to find out the tex and baby were all a scam. Maybe season 3 will reveal that the was mindwarped into thinking that she was pregnant so that she would initiate operation kill off all the aliens we love. What I hope is that Max will find out when the other "protector" steps forward and reveals that Nacedo was kill by the skins when Kivar discovered that he was double crossed and that the hybrids were incapable of having offspring. Then the real translation of the DB will be handed over. You know the one with all the important parts about LIZ!

I think there still have to be a lot of work to do to salvage Liz and Max's relationship. I figure the revealation that the tex and baby will go a long way, but won't cover all the bases. But I didn't see last night as a reunion, thereby making Liz a putz for taking Max the jerk back. I saw last night as a reconsilitation between two people still in love. It was the begining of a long journey. One that will hopefully have the same passion and sentiment of season 1. But with a much greater understanding of their real roles in each others lives now that they know what they know. I'm glad he admitted Liz was right along about Alex. I was glad to see them working as a team. I was happy about his final statement about how he had been wrong about alot of things but that loving Liz wasn't one of them. That said he still has a long road to travel to be right in my eyes.

Obviously there are lots of questions.
When will Max find out about FM and the real sacrifice that Liz made?
Where are the dupes?
Exactly how does Max think that he is going to save his son when the just took the only ride he'll ever have?
Why does he even believe her about the baby?

And season 3 better pick up where we left off not 3 months later. I need to know the details!

OK, so I have a few things that I want to say. (how surprising)

Regarding Max and Liz - It would be a disaster if Max and Liz rushed back into a relationship. They have a lot of issues they need to work through before they could be together, plus I want to see the 'foreplay' building back up to a reunion. However, one thing I have to say is that I think JK is setting us up for a Liz/Sean/Max triangle of some sort. Why else would they show the scene with Liz and Sean, which was so out of place, disjointed and unecesary to have in this episode. If JK plans on going there, then I am going to have to hurl. The only obstacle that Max and Liz should have to get over in order to get back together now is themselves. NO MORE GODDAMN TRIANGLES!!

Questions that were raised by this episode.

- So, Nasedo made a deal 40 years ago. Does that mean he wasn't their 'protector'?
- Was Tess the true fourth podster?
- Was Vilandra really the one who betrayed her family on the home planet -- or was it Tess perhaps setting it up to look like it was Vilandra.
- How did Tess manage to mindwarp Alex for two months straight from far away?
- What does this mean for the dupes?
- I thought the Granolith was a religious icon...if it was really a one time travel device, why were the other leaders of the five planets so surprised that it was no longer with them?
- Why did Khivar want it back so badly, if he actually devised the plan with Nasedo/Tess to have her return home with the baby and the other three? Huh?
- Was it just me or did Liz's [human] blood cells from the pilot look different from those of Leanna?!?!?!?!

Liz's bloodcell slide from the pilot

There's a lot of space for interesting storytelling in season 3, as long as they stay away from the hackneyed triangle storylines. It's bad enough we're going to have the royal heir to deal with... speaking of which, how can Max possibly trust that Tess is telling the truth now? How can they trust anything they found out from Nasedo/Tess? Was the Destiny story even true? Or was it part of Khivar and Nacedo's master plan to return the royal 4 to them? Sorry...more questions.

In any case, I am really excited to see how this all plays out next season. And the best part -- it all starts again in August! Woo Hoo.

The acting in this episode was superb. I mean, the scene where Alex had his breakdown -- does it get any better than that?

Anyhow, I'm sure I'll be back later with more comments.... I've seen this episode 3x already and I really, really enjoyed it.

Yeah Roswell!!! We have a lot to mull over, mythers....

StephYou can download it off of the internet at:
www.angelfire.com/tv2/roswellbuffy

OK, can one of you guys try and tell me how EOTW fits into this new scenario with Tess? I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around it. It just doesn't make any sense to me now.

If we are to truly believe that Tess's mission was to get pregnant and deliver the others home -- then why are we to believe that in the first timeline she would've given up so easily? Huh?

I really feel that EOTW in this context makes absolutely no sense. Do the writer's want to pretend like it didn't happen? Is *that* why they didn't have Liz tell Max about FM?

Oh please, if any of you have been able to make heads or tails of this, please explain it to me so that I can understand too?

I'm really struggling with this one...

{~}:}

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I agree! About the lilith vs. eve thing. And this morning I had a nagging feeling about an Arthurian theme with Max's heir being Mordred, fostered by Khivar to be Max's Achilles heel and ultimate betrayer.

Something else-- Alex came back from "Sweden" with a lot of documentation-- slides, botes, emails, photos, etc. I just don't know how Tess could have done the whole operation solo. She definitely had help, but from whom? Is Nacedo really dead? Were the Skins in on it, and if so why did they let her get away with the Granolith? Who else had the copy of the text? If it was Rath and Lonnie, again, why did they let the Granolith get away? Is the good shapeshifter going to show up or did Nacedo kill him a long time ago?

I remember some time ago someone saying Tess was really from the NY4. Do we need to find Ava now?

I can see where Ava may have been the true betrayer back home, and Vilandra set up. Or Khivar may have switched plans for Earth, making Tess the betrayer on the chance that the Royal 4 might remember Vilandra's betrayal and not trust her in this setting because of that.

Also, did anyone else notice Kyle tapping on Tess's back when he's hugging her, right after she mindwarps him the first time, and it fades to commercial on his fingers and her guilty looking face. I can't believe I didn't notce that until my 2nd viewing.

bye for now...
frank

I also think that Tess must have some important connection to Khivar, otherwise why would she feel safe to go back to Antar. Wouldn't she think that after having the baby he'd just kill her, because she's no longer needed.

And this makes me think back to Harvest and Surprise. In Harvest I will never forget the way Tess looked at that picture of CWW. She looked at the picture like she was trying to remember her. Like perhaps this woman was important to her. I wonder if maybe she had some relation to CWW when they were back on Antar.

I also wonder why Khivar didn't tell his people about the deal he made with Nasedo??? Or maybe he did tell them but they had their own agenda, getting home. CWW stated in her diary how much she hated Earth and wanted to go home and how she didn't care about finding the Royals any longer. I'm certain Nicholas knew the truth though, just based on Tess' comments at www.silverhandprint.com on how Nicholas always got in way etc., Her comments about him sounded like they both had the same goal, but he was always thwarted her well thought out plans.

I can't believe, after everything....-Liz(Departure)

I havent been able to fit in EOTW - unless - the son is somehow going to be the key to their planet's salvation. I do think it will be possible to tie it all together because I DONT think JK "changed his mind" about Tess - I think she has always had this agenda - so I think he knows where it is all going.
I will say that I HATE it that there is a baby - I HATE it that the TEX was real (even though I do think it is abundantly clear that Max was being manipulated from OTM on)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer[/B]

I may be wrong but it seems to me that TEOTW could have also been a mind warp from Tess. Unfortanetly I havn't been able to actually see that episode so I'm not positive. That was just my first impression after Departure.

Also about Tess mindwarping Alex, maybe she didn't actually mindwarp him for the entire two months. She could have erased some of his memories and implanted a compulsion to do what she wanted him to do. When she mindwarped Kyle into carring Alex's body, she didn't wear that close eyed frowning face she usually uses for a mindwarp, her eyes were open the whole time so she may have done the same to him. She erased his real memories and implanted new ones. If she did this enough to Alex, his line about about there not being enough of his mind left for her to mindwarp would make a lot of sense. She had erased all of his real memories and there was nothing left for her to replace.

On the subject of the baby, I don't like it, I hope that it does turn out to not be real, but I can except it. I can except it because this is a show about teen alienation, and teens are known for making mistakes, even huge, unalterable, lifechanging mistakes and when you make a mistake you have to live with the consequences no matter how much you may regret it.

now I'm going to spend the rest of the summer watching old episodes and looking for finger tapping.

RW

RW

There was no way EOTW was a mindwarp. All the stuff with the Granolith in the begninning....No way.

As far as the son being the key to their salvation or whatever (yawn) I don't buy it. In the first EOTW timeline, Liz and Max were together so there was no Tess spawn. So how could they know that there was a son in this timeline???????

What I'm thinking is that Tess and Nasedo were told to return home with Zan's son, and deliver the M/I/M to Khivar. However, Khivar was talking about Zan and Ava's child from Antar...who incidentally, was killed in the conflict that enslaved their planet. Mom and company duplicated his essence, cloned it, and sent it to earth so that he could be reborn as a human. Tess and Nasedo misunderstood. They thought Tess was supposed to get pregnant with Max's son, when in reality her mission really was to find her son from their other lifetime...who, incidentally can either be Sean or Malamud. They screwed up bigtime.

Does anybody else see the absolute ridiculousness of season 2???? I definitely enjoyed it -- but it DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!!

{~}:}

[/B]

I don't know, it's just the more I think about things, the more they don't make sense.

Can someone PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE explain how EOTW fits into this current scenario?

I'm struggling here and it's giving me a headache!! H E L P

{~}:}

"I may be wrong but it seems to me that TEOTW could have also been a mind warp from Tess. Unfortanetly I havn't been able to actually see that episode so I'm not positive. That was just my first impression after Departure."~~RW

"What I'm thinking is that Tess and Nasedo were told to return home with Zan's son, and deliver the M/I/M to Khivar. However, Khivar was talking about Zan and Ava's child from Antar...who incidentally, was killed in the conflict that enslaved their planet. Mom and company duplicated his essence, cloned it, and sent it to earth so that he could be reborn as a human. Tess and Nasedo misunderstood. They thought Tess was supposed to get pregnant with Max's son, when in reality her mission really was to find her son from their other lifetime...who, incidentally can either be Sean or Malamud. They screwed up bigtime."~~Metaphysicalgrl

What I love about this is the fact now we're back to square one in not knowing what the heck is going on Time for new theories!! I LOVE IT!!

DESTINY
quote:
LIZ: So everything Nasedo told me was true. You and Tess were meant to be together.

MAX: Liz.

LIZ: I mean, it's your destiny, right?

MAX: I wish I could go back Liz. Back to when things were normal.

LIZ: Me, too. I just wish that I could have stopped you from saving my life that day in the CrashDown.

So its basically not true that Tess is his destiny !! AHA! Now we know it ight have been NASEDO trying to kill Liz because SHE is his destiny, could have been anyways ::rejoice::

Stupid, stupid Max. We do we love him soo ? Doesn't even follow his "make your own destiny" advice ::RD shakes her head::

meta : your theories sounds soo crazy it might be actually be true! Now getta load of this...Tess can still mindwarp them from antar ! AHA ! So we can finally have our villaness Isabel having been mindwarped all along in the other planet AND it might happen again !!

QUESTION:
Nasedowas Tess's protector.
Valenti is Liz, Kyle and Maria's.
Maria is Michael's protector
Liz is Max's...

is Kyle supposed to be Isabel's?????
Soo many new questions! I love it !!

A behry confused RD
Melodious1 where or where are you with your ingenius son/daughter watching theory?? We need you now ....

It is still possible that the Tex and baby are false. Tess looks terrified when she's in the granolith, maybe b/c she's completely failed in her mission. She's not delivering the other 3, nor is she pregnant. Yes, I am grasping at straws here, but I do NOT want to see an S3 about a teenage father looking for his son. It's so completely false to the premise of the show.

I have more thoughts, but they are as yet unorganized. I did want to know if anyone else noticed when Kyle entered Tess' room with the flowers, off to his left was a highway sign. It was mile marker 67. The same one that Maxedo dumped the FBI agent's body beside and called Pierce about in MTTM--when Liz realized for certain that it wasn't Max in the car with her. I only noticed this the third time I saw it but it totally creeped me out. When did she get it, and more importantly, WHY would Tess have that sign? She would have known that was where the body was b/c they drove by the investigation in the Jeep (RIP, Bob ) and they were all looking at it. But why would she want that as a souvenir or whatever? Any way you look at it, it's seriously creepy.
~Tas

quote:
FROM TEOTW
LIZ: No, you're not Max, ok? You...you're like a shapeshifter. You are like some other kind of alien, with, like, the ability to look like Max with that beard and those...and those grey hairs.
FUTURE MAX: Do you really see grey?
LIZ: This isn't funny, ok?
FUTURE MAX: Hold on.
LIZ: No! Let go of me!

Was she just really not wanting to believe this or was this ALL true?

quote:
FROM TEOTW
FUTURE MAX: That's what I said, but you said that Romeo and Juliet were even younger than us, so we drove to Vegas. Got married at the Elvis chapel. Congratulations, kids.


This is gonna sound insane but here's a theory take ,
1. Nasedo tries to kill Liz because she's in the way of their plan to get Max back home to Kivar.. It fails.
2. Nasedo dies as a result of it failing.

quote:FROM TEOTW
MAX: What do you mean, "if Liz isn't interested?"
TESS: No, I...I didn't mean...
MAX: You were talking to Liz about this?
TESS: N-Not exactly.

3. Tess decides to take over Liz's timeline (BE LIZ) so that she can be in her shoes and get Max (his baby) to go back home kill them and she becomes mother of the King son (that would have been Liz's). Backup?

quote:
FUTURE MAX: If we succeed in changing history, a different version of the future will take place. All the events that led to who I am 14 years from now will be different. The man I am now will cease to exist.

Wouldn't you know it, FMax IS GREY AND A SHAPESHIFTER as Liz originally said...he's Max/Liz's 14 year old SON!!!

quote:MAX: I felt that...and I know you did, too, and I know you think that...that I need to let you go...for the sake of Michael, and Isabel, and my race...so you went to Tess. But she can't be you. Tess can never be you.

She was trying to be Liz.

Notice the alien holding the baby in the background...

Tess leaves with her baby (fake or not) knowing Max will have to try and find a way back to it (just in case it is his real baby). Thats my theory and I'm sticking to it ...

justsmile

justsmile

[/B]

Hey Tas, I noticed this too (and noted it at the end of the last thread). I kept seeing it and saying “Hey there it is again!” I even checked MTTM to make sure. Yep. 67. That’s a prop clue if ever I saw one! It was in so many shots. And yes, it creeped me out!

BTW, I agree that I don't want S3 to be about Max looking for his son!

quote:Originally posted by SATiNribbon:
which episode was that? with the alien holding the baby? do you think it symbolizes something that the alien is holding a human baby and not an alien one?

A B S O L U T E L Y!!
hybrid tess + hybrid max= NO BABY but inroswell-I-don't-believe-in-biology-of-the-real-world-land hypotheically speaking, the baby would be hybrid (supposedly )

+ = happy human baby hybrid

BTW Hello & The episode of the cap is 'CRY YOUR NAME' . You can see loads of the alien holding the baby images in the last page :
http://www.crashdown.com/screencaps/217/index7.shtml

and again in that scene where Max and Michael talk about the 'Matrix' & 'Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon' (or whatever its called ).

quote:I REALLY HOPE THIS DOESNT MESS UP MAX AND LIZ'S RELATIONSHIP EVEN THOUGH IT IS STARTING TO...

Sorry to disappoint you but their is no Max/Liz relationship to mess up at present .

Okay maybe where suppose to rewatch Max to the Max... i just knew Jason Katims would give us clues

I like how Liz got at max and yelled at him and totally forgot what Fmax had told her "I saved myself for you, and you go off with Tess?"

justsmile

It is great to see you again. I haven't been here in two weeks... so busy with classes and real life.

Anyway, I tried to get on here last night, but couldn't. I sure wouldn't have wanted to be one of the FF servers last night!

I was so happy to see at least some of our theories come true last night. I was doing a little happy dance around the ottoman when Alex showed up in the mirror and Tess did her little MW on Kyle. ...too cool.

Well I have to run again! Hopefully I can check in again soon.

As far as the son being the key to their salvation or whatever (yawn) I don't buy it. In the first EOTW timeline, Liz and Max were together so there was no Tess spawn. So how could they know that there was a son in this timeline???????

Your probably right. As I said, I haven't seen that episode or Harvest either.

BTW, I noticed the mile 67 marker, too. I didn't know what it stood for but I knew it had to mean something otherwise why would the props department put a mile marker in Tess's room?

RW

First – on the positive note, I want to you all, especially the ones who visit here so often and contribute so much knowledge and energy to this Thread, to know how much I appreciate you , and how I would not have been able to get through this Season 2 without you! You all truly helped make this season palatable, and helped develop storylines that “unfortunately” were not to be! (at least not this Season, but there is always Season 3 – okay, you can get me down, but not keep me down – I am an eternal optimist!! )

Now my take on the episode ( BEWARE part of the following will include some ranting, so please forgive me! )

I had such high hopes for Departure – maybe too high of hopes. Not that I didn’t enjoy parts of Departure! In fact, I loved a lot of the episode, but the over-arching storyline involving Tex/Baby made me think that I was watching “Days of Our Life,” not the Roswell. I was so disappointed that Max was not “duped” into acting like a JERK and A$$ to Liz and Iz, and into sleeping with Tess. I finally – after OTM – agreed that it was probably a mindwarp/mind control, though continued to think it looked all too real. (I still have nightmares of Max taking Tess’ bra off!) Well, as I feared, it appears that it was real – though there still is a possibility that it was part of a mindwarp, and all will be cleared up in Season 3 – but … Instead of wrapping up the entire Tess/Max storyline – as I sooooo hoped would happen - we have to spend another Season dealing with the consequences of Max’s poor knee-jerk decision to send Tess back to Antar impregnated (assuming we can trust her) with his son! Hello – what were you thinking letting her go?? Max’s character has been so damaged in my mind, I have a hard time accepting that Liz could be so accepting of him at the end! Even in this episode Max occasionally reminded me of the old Max – that I love – and other times was just “off”!

On a positive note, I thought Liz’s investigating Alex’s death and the mindwarping was wonderful! She does have heightened senses of perception. How she was able to process the information to conclude that Leanna was not an alien – preventing Max from committing a senseless murder – was great, as was her ability to process the tapping, memory erasing and other clues to conclude that Tess had killed Alex. Shiri did a wonderful job – she is an incredible actress! Her reactions to Max’s revelations about the Tex and baby were right on! But with all the emotions between them, why didn’t she get flashes? And why didn’t she tell Max about Future Max? AND WHY did she go to Sean? That was one of those scenes that part of me could understand – get back at Max by sleeping with Sean, but part of me couldn’t believe they through that in there. At least she had the good sense to stop it before it went to far, and Sean was a gentleman about it. PLEASE TPTB no more triangles next year – I dread a Liz, Max, Sean triangle – and Tess out there in never/never land with Max’s son for good measure!

While I loved Liz tonight, I don’t understand WHY TPTB have not done anything with her “powers” or other obvious and intriguing elements of her character? Poor continuity, and poor writing!

(Sorry – I’m going to continue to ramble here This is based on my first watching and a lack of sleep, so it is always more emotional! Behr with me.)

Now – back to Max – He has just kissed Liz, and found out she did not sleep with Kyle – though why he didn’t ask her why she deceived him about it, I don’t know. But follow-up questions are not this groups’ strong suit! And then he goes through the stuff with Iz at home, goes to get Tess, and he kisses her? Why did Max kiss Tess? It did not seem to fit the scene. And why did she get a flash? With Maria’s flash, they seem to take on a different meaning somehow, so why was Max “open” to Tess after what he said to Liz, and why now? Then he puts his arm around her and snuggles walking through the tunnel?? There is a lack of character consistency there that truly bugs me – but…?

Liz figures out the mindwarp through the finger tapping, and helps Kyle to remember. So, as usual, Liz saves the day! (YOU GO GIRL!) (and also prevented Max from killing an innocent girl! BUT WHO THE H#@* is Leanna??) Did Leanna notice Liz and Maria watching her in the crowd at the concert and run away, or was that just coincidence? Was she paying for a vacant property, or what? Tess may have mindwarped Alex, but this was a very involved plot and I have a hard time believing that Tess orchestrated the entire thing without help. But where is Nicko, where are the Dupes? If they were behind it, wouldn’t they be there for the ride home on the Granolith? They must be counting their “cards” somewhere! Someone/thing had to have set up the vacant property with the deciphered book and bomb – but who? Tess? Why?

Which raises another BIG question – Why did Tess have to mindwarp Alex into deciphering the book when he probably would have done it willingly if she had just asked him too? Alex – a computer nerd - would have loved such an opportunity! While intriguing, that storyline doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. It does if the Dupes or Nicko are involved, but not Tess alone. All the Pod Squad would have welcomed the opportunity to know what was in the book – you would think? Umm….??

Looking at the timeline is interesting – if you look at what happened not too long before Alex left for “Sweden.” I’m including all the events up to (almost) graduation so that you can see:
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed Harding, the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/6/2001 – Special Agent Ragsdale writes Congressman White re: FBI Special Unit (Silverhandprint)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday (Surprise)
12/9/2000 – Alex’s Departure for Sweden (ITL ITB)
12/23/2000 – Max heals 5 kids in U of A Children’s Hospital (ARCC); exact time – 8:33 PM (silverprint)
12/24/2000 – Max attends Midnight Services, expressing his Belief in Liz (ARCC)
1/2001 – The Hybrid Chronicles Begin!
1/15/2001 (oops – silverhandprint made a mistake and had it as 1/15/2000) – Laurie Dupree escapes insane asylum Pine Crest Psychiatric Institute in Brownsfield, Texas – she was 16 years old when committed (silverhandprint)
1/16/2001 – Date Leanna computer file/document created by Alex (ITLITB)
1/18/2001 – Date Alex and Leanna were supposed to be traveling to the Baltic Islands – where the mysterious building supposedly existed (ITLITB)
1/28/2001 – Alex’s Return from Sweden date (ITLITB)
2/2001 (oops – silverhandprint made a mistake and had it as 2/2000) – National Interrogator published with stories about Roswell storylines (silverhandprint)
4/27/2001 – Roswell High Junior/Senior Prom; Liz begins to write in Journal again; Max kisses Tess at Prom ( ) (Heart of Mine)
4/29/2001 – Date of Death for Alex Whitman listed on gravestone (Departure)
5/3-5/2001 – Roswell High Production of “May Fair Lady” (AKA Liz ) (silverhandprint)
5/3?/2001 – Alex Whitman is killed in car accident (Cry Your Name)
5/4?/2001 – Kyle’s Birthday! (Cry Your Name)
5/5/2001 – Alex had bought tickets to Beth Orton concert; Alex’s funeral (Cry Your Name)
5/24/2001 – Roswell High Senior Awards

Somehow, the deception had to have been planned weeks before Alex left – but … Any thoughts?

We also find out that the little “get Tess pregnant and take the baby home” scheme was planned 40 years ago. What happened 40 years ago? Atherton died in 11/1959! A connection? Maybe Atherton was an abductee? Or was somehow involved in the scheme, but regardless, Harding must have had contact with the Skins back then, and it is interesting that nothing is mentioned of this connection in Whitaker’s diary?? And, how does this play into Sheila Hubble’s death in 1970? (and the fact that she was pregnate?)

Another thing that jumped out at me - Why does Kyle know how much further to the pod chamber, when it is Liz and Maria who have been there? And was the Mile marker 67 in Tess’ room a reference that there were 7 Scooby’s after Alex’s death, but only 6 were truthful, true members of the Gang – Tess being evil one out!?

And the Granolith! What is with making it no more than a transporter/ship? I can’t believe that the leaders of other planets would be SOO un-set at the thought that Max was in possession of the Granolith – the supposed Holy Grail – if it was nothing more than a transporter – and not a super-high tech, change the molecules and create a wormhole type transporter, but a spin-around, become a spaceship and shoot off into space transporter. The scene was fun to watch, but the science behind it?? Well, I will leave that to those more qualified than me, but I was very disappointed that this was a single use ship, and nothing more. I do understand the desire of the Skins to get it to go home, but … not the other interest focused on it. And – how long is it going to take Tess to get home? (Spinning into space like that would sure create one H@#* of a morning-sickness attack!) Unless, it is capable of creating a wormhole once out of our gravitational pull – that baby is going to be born on board and pretty old before they get to Antar!

And Iz saying “What now Max?” almost made me scream! NO! Same line (almost) that Tess used last season – and often this season! Iz – YOU ARE SO MUCH SMARTER THAN THAT! Well – Season 3 should be interesting!

Finally, I hope that Liz and Max don’t just “fall” back into a relationship – that Max has to work to earn her trust and affection again. There are too many things that have gone down this Season 2 – many of which I wish I could forget – but since I can’t and neither can Liz – please use Season 3 to work out these issues and develop a more cohesive storyline that is well thought out. There is so much potential!

More later after I re-watch the episode – and get my work done. Oh – and I will now have to up-date the Intro with all the finale’s impact!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Drop this in the pile of conspiracy theories, but I was also considering the same thing. However, I'd *assume* Khivar and co. would figure out pretty quickly that Tess is indeed pregnant but NOT with the Royal heir, with some other guy's kid. I was wondering if Tess might have possibly been pregnant with Alex's baby? I'm still lingering on the possibility two hybrids can't have a child (sterile with each other, but NOT with a pure blood perhaps - hybrid/human = baby, hybrid/hybrid = nothing).

I suppose I'm thinking this partially because of Alex's "relationship" to Leanna. Which obviously could have easily been part of the mindwarp... but I suppose my paranoid mind is taking it in another direction. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume that "Leanna is not Leanna" was possibly saying "Leanna is Tess". Alex sent the translation to Leanna/Jennifer Coleman.... Tess mindwarped Alex to translate the book.... So Tess would arguably be the recipient of the translation, right? Tess would be Leanna/Jennifer Coleman. I was wondering if then there could have been MORE to the seeming "romantic" aspect Alex seemed to elude to in concerns to Leanna (As Alex referred to her, "a long distance thing", TSAP). Could Alex have had sex with "Leanna" (who was in actuality Tess who was mindwarping him to believe he was with "Leanna")? Tess becomes pregnant with ALEX's baby (because HYBRID Tess can only be empregnated by a HUMAN and she learns this from the Destiny Book translation Alex sent to her?).

When Alex confronts her, he demands to know if she's been mindwarping him .... which she confirms (However, I don't believe he ever brings up specifics of the mindwarp - I need to rewatch the ep). Leanna is NOT Leanna because Leanna is a mindwarp? Or Leanna is not Leanna because Leanna was/is Tess?

cont.

I'm also still hanging on to what the he** is in that damn Destiny Book (since I'm using it pretty heavily in this spec). I REFUSE to believe ALL it contained was instructions how to use the Granilith. There must have been something more to it then that imo. Tess - for whatever reason - FORCES Alex to translate the Destiny Book via mindwarp. Why? Was her intention simply to find these "instructions" or did she happen to discover something MORE in the Book? Something unexpected? Something which PUSHED her to do what she (possibly) did in OFF THE MENU (manipulates Max? Pushes the memories, etc... jumping starting the plan to get her the he** off Earth and NOW)? Tess doesn't jump RIGHT into the plan because of the Gandarium/Laurie Dupree issue (and the brief throw away ep of VIVA LAS VEGAS).... AFTER the gandarium stuff is cleared up, Max suddenly remembers the past life love for Tess? I HAVE to think there was possibly something in that book that SCARED Tess into forwarding her "plan" (or Nasedo's plan which she went along with: get pregnant, go home, deliver the podsters to Kivar on silver platter). I have a hard time believing she WASN'T in a hurry either because of the "1 month gestation" (mostly human and the gestation is ONLY one month long?! Right), "the baby is dying from EARTH's atmosphere" (Tess, Max, Iz and Mike all seem to be MORE than fine on Earth, why should a hybrid kid be any different??). It all seemed grossly convenient yet nonsensical (Tess' plight seemed built up more around EXCUSES to get off the planet then logical fact) and pointed directly to GOING HOME. WHAT was Tess' rush?? It HAD to have been something she discovered from the Destiny Book translation... it scared her to get OFF the planet and speed up Nasedo's plan.

quote:but then max would've done that tapping thing

Maybe he'll do it next season? If Max is being mindwarped then it must be a pretty damn massive warp... perhaps it's *preventing* him from showing any indication of the warp? Max might not have done the "tapping"/"strumming" because he's been in a continuous warp more or less since OTM? Tess warped Alex... of which she stopped for a rather long period of time... Alex began to "strum". Kyle was warped possibly just the once [arguably], and Tess never warped him again... hence he began strumming. Amy was warped once and quickly, hence she began strumming. Max - if he WAS being warped - would have been under a CONTINUOUS warp. He might not have ever had the opportunity to break out of it or let his unconscious mind allow his fingers to strum. Now with Tess FAR away... it could mean we might see Max begin to tap his fingers... this sets off Liz (Kyle and Maria as well because they know what it means) to consider that Max has ALSO been warped. They won't have any idea what she's warped him to believe however because she's *gone* and they can't confront her about it. So this would leave Max to believe that his son MIGHT exist... but then it might not. Of course, he can't take that chance... so the first opportunity, he's going to probably have to get in touch with Larek or someone to find out if the son is real or not. If YOU were Kivar and you KNEW the son didn't really exist... would you come clean (to your enemy??) OR would you make Max believe that you have his son hence giving you PLENTY of leverage over this "once and future king".... biding your time until a REAL heir can be born. WHO is probably going to give Max his first real heir??... Poor Liz. If she means as much to Max as he says she does at the end of DEPARTURE... Liz better watch her back.

Melodious

Alexis can you please post the most up-to-date copy of the reasons?

Jlinderhof – I too thought of the Arthurian story when I heard the “scheme” regarding the baby! I have often brought up the correlations between the two stories, and this fits in again! But the Granolith was supposed to be like Excaliber – not just a single us spaceship!! Also, the speculation that Tess may be killed after the baby is born is right on given that ultimately (I’m spacing on names right now) the baby’s mother was killed in the Arthurian story once her usefulness wore thin.

Star Box – Excellent observation about Tess’ comments. I have often wondered about the “society” on Antar – and how Ava and Zan TRULY got together. Love has never been mentioned except when Tess was trying to convince Max through memory retrieval! (Though I still believe those were planted memories!) Though Max does admit to thinking he “loves” Tess when he tells Liz he does not love Tess like he loves Liz!

I was thinking now that the Granolith is gone, Brody/Larek takes on a new importance in that he is the only “Known” connection to what is going on back “there”! I hope he comes back next year, and does turn out to be a Friend! Not foe!

Met – Please go get a Margarita, some chips, salsa and sit out in the sunshine! This will help you relax and get rid of your Roswell lack of continuity headache! I have learned from just pulling the famous timeline together that you have to let some things slid. Just in Departure we are given a different date of Alex’s death (4/29 –my anniversary! ) than we figure out in CYN! (Don’t these guys keep notes from one episode to another?) It is frustrating, but …. ! I cannot reconcile what went on and was said in TEOTW with Departure, but I can rationalize some of it away for now. I’m still struggling with the Harding/Evil Max save Liz from the house of mirrors and kisses her from last year! I can come up with reasons, but it still drives me nutty!

Well – now I really have to go – back later! Oh – and Shapeshifter – Thanks!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Re: Tess' room or Kyle's. Tess has clearly redecorated the room to be hers. She's changed the bedspread and taken down the football posters and the like, so I think that we can safely say that whatever's in the room by now is Tess', and that includes mile marker 67. Besides, it wouldn't mean anything to Kyle, he wasn't part of the group then.

Re: Max kissing Tess. I believe this was for 2 reasons.
1) She had just asked him if he was sure he wanted to do this; I think he was trying to convince himself that the answer was yes.
2) Tess needed to know that he had kissed Liz so that she could say Max wouldn't remember her where they were going. Now, that could be interpreted to mean that he wouldn't know b/c he would be dead, but it could also be seen as an indication that Tess was planning to MW Max into forgetting Liz. Which means that it should be a clue to Max that Tess was capable of messing with his mind too. Yes, there is a certain amount of despair at Max's recent inability to pick up on clues, but I do believe that he was being controlled on a regular basis since OTM. I don't think it would need to be continuous, as Mel pointed out. Tess was around him all the time, she would be able to tell when a touch more control was needed. He would never have been completely free of coercion, but I don't think she MWd him continuously b/c then he'd be in the same state as Alex was. While he's missing a few brain cells at the moment he's not anywhere near that level of degradation. Therefore the control was light and renewable; I suspect it was designed to turn his own character strengths against him, more like posthypnotic suggestion or something. So if Max does exhibit finger-tapping, it'll be next season. Which could actualy be interesting as they try to figure out exactly what Tess was MWing him about And the effect on one's brain from continuous MWing is as good an explanation as any for Max being kind of his real self but not quite in Departure.

Wonder if Max and Michael will compare notes? Part of me keeps waiting for Max to mention that the Tex happened in the observatory, and for the person he's talking with to look at him like he's nuts and proclaim that Roswell doesn't have an observatory

Zero When Tess took off by herself in the granolith, my first thought was that you were going to be p***ed
~Tas

did anyone notice

Sean's teeshirt when Liz attacked him said "59" on it??????? Hello could this be 1959????

and you have all commented on the milemarker 67----but did you notice the poster with the football player--his number was ZERO??????

DID YOU NOTICE
beside the milemarker67 sign was a poster in the room of a football player--his jersey number 0.
And the other--when Liz went to Sean after she says Max Evans broke my heart and Sean hugs her did anyone notice the number 59 on Sean's jersey----now could that be 1959????

Alexis can you please post the most up-to-date copy of the reasons?

Alwaysdreamin—I posted the most up to date reasons on the Cherish Thread. I don’t know if the Liz Mythers would necessarily appreciate it being posted on this thread! Check it out on Page 3 of #237.

....I must sleep it ower and then i be able look this ep. again and do some conclusions whay i feel like i feel.

sry. ranting and gram. and spell.
Raincat

quote:Originally posted by Metaphysicalgrl:
So, Nasedo made a deal 40 years ago. Does that mean he wasn't their 'protector'?

He probably wasn't. I think I'm going to have to jump onto the boat of people saying he was the ship's janitor or something Someone *important* in the podsters' survival in SOME way... but possibly not as important as a protector would be? He's simply just some guy sent along to help the podsters, but realizes after the ship crashed, getting briefly captured by humans and the discovery of the Skins on Earth. His survival (or cowardice, hmpf) instincts kicked in and made a *deal with the devil* basically. Nasedo didn't care WHAT happened to the "Royals" just as long as he could get back home in ONE piece. Although... If Nasedo had made a deal with the "Skins"... why was he murdered by one? Whitaker killed him according to her diary on Silverhandprint. Whitaker wasn't aware of this "deal"? Did Nasedo only make it with the Skin "head honchos" per se (Nikolas and/or Kivar)?

Or was Tess the one that made the deal with the Skins (she just blamed him for it when pressured by Max)? In order for Nasedo NOT to find out this deal Tess made... he was killed by Whitaker? Whitaker was led to believe (by Tess?) he was one of the protectors (when he was not)? Tess, Nikolas, Kivar (amongst others?) are the only ones that knew/know the truth? Could Tess have mindwarped Nasedo to go along with this "deal" (hence Nasedo pushed the "alien mating rituals" from the beginning, *knowing* that the podsters were not supposed to mate with each other but unable to fight Tess', Nikolas', Kivar's warps)?

Was Tess the true fourth podster?

I'm still wondering if Tess might have been the dupe. Ava is the original. Although I suppose it wouldn't take much to become "corrupted" if you were raised by Nasedo - seemingly a traitor. Tess was raised by Nasedo: she became corrupted. Ava was not raised by Nasedo: she was not corrupted? That's if Tess aka the young bride wasn't "corrupt" from the getgo.

Was Vilandra really the one who betrayed her family on the home planet -- or was it Tess perhaps setting it up to look like it was Vilandra.

For some reason, I think if it was discovered Tess had some *past* connection to Kivar (She was his sister, daughter, niece, whathaveyou?)... it just WOULD NOT surprise me. Lonnie was certainly less than admirable... however she *was not* part of the *good batch* either. Although I'd have to think NONE of the podsters were very good in their past lives.... considering Max DID seem to be married to Tess once. Blah! Tess tells Max in DEP he was a "King" and now he's just a "boy". He might have been a "King" then only by inherited title... not "deserving" of the role in any respect. Which is probably why the past life ENDED the way it did (a lousy set of Royals = failure). It's only on Earth that Max is starting to become a TRUE King (with LIZ at his side, NOT his murdering bit** of a young bride)?

How did Tess manage to mindwarp Alex for two months straight from far away?

Maybe she wasn't always so far away? Maybe she managed to sneak over to Las Cruces occassionally to keep the mindwarps fresh? And/Or she could have had help (which is the most likely scenario imo). It wouldn't surprise me if Tess was sneaking away from Roswell while Alex was in "Sweden", it's not like she had any "friends" checking up on her at that point besides the Valentis. She could EASILY erase/change their memories as well... one second Jim and Kyle are wondering where Tess has been all day... Tess comes through the door, erases BOTH their memories, plants fresh ones and it's like she was NEVER gone.

What does this mean for the dupes?

Well the Granilith is gone now. It wouldn't surprise me if the dupes are already dead (What do the Skins need with them now if they already have the "heir"... or at least they've gotten Max to believe they have his "heir"). Maybe they're already on Antar? Lonnie at least.

I thought the Granolith was a religious icon...if it was really a one time travel device, why were the other leaders of the five planets so surprised that it was no longer with them?

Maybe it was a prototype? The other leaders are desperate to duplicate it but can't because so far no one has been able to make another Granilith per se? They need to real Granilith as blue print to make several more?

I'm not entirely sure what Courtney wanted with it in WIPE OUT? She was going to transport herself back to Antar with it, get a new body and come back to rejoin her fellow Michael Worshippers? She would have seemingly needed a crystal and waited 24 hours before she could go ANYWHERE according to the Granilith Instructions.

I'm pretty damn convinced the Granilith is MUCH more than just some transportation device. Just like you eluded to Meta, it was seemingly *worshipped* by these alien races. They *worshipped* a device which their very own space ships are capable of by themselves? Seems kind of irrational.

Why did Khivar want it back so badly, if he actually devised the plan with Nasedo/Tess to have her return home with the baby and the other three? Huh?

***Kivar not only seems to have the Granilith, but ALSO Max's "heir". So WHY are the podsters still alive? You'd think if Kivar not only had the Granilith AND the heir... Nikolas would come marching right in and blow them all away. What's stopping him??***

quote:OK, can one of you guys try and tell me how EOTW fits into this new scenario with Tess? I'm really having a hard time wrapping my head around it. It just doesn't make any sense to me now.

Perhaps the purpose of EOTW in this lifetime was to discover how truly evil Tess was/is? Something Future Max/Liz never seemingly realized (arguably) because FMax's purpose in going back in time was to make sure Tess STAYED... believing that her energy was necessary in the unit. Due to Alex's murder (amongst certainly other heinous things that Tess has probably done while on Earth) -- they were able to discover that Tess possibly, although at one time WAS a part of the group, is better SACRIFICED then keeping her around? Cutting away the fat per se. In Future Max/Liz's time... we're never told what happened to Tess afterwards... something either CUT from the script or episode itself was that Future Max stated flat out that Tess "turned to the darkside" after his rejection of her. Future Max/Liz might have believed because of their relationship and Max's treatment of Tess that it pushed her to the "other side"... but in reality... Tess was ALWAYS on the "other side". Max/Liz just never discovered this. In DEPARTURE, Tess reveals to Max that Nasedo made a deal with the Skins 40 YEARS AGO.... so that would mean the Tess from Future Max/Liz's timeline would have ALSO known about this plan. Tess was ALWAYS working for the enemy... in that future timeline and in this one. It's just that in THIS timeline... Nasedo's / Tess' plan apparently SUCCEEDS... or did it? It obviously failed in the respect that not ALL the podsters returned to Antar in the Granilith... but Kivar has BOTH the Granilith AND seemingly Max's "heir". That's pretty damn close to success if you ask me. What can the podsters do now besides simply wait for the guillotine?? ... Unless Tess IS NOT pregnant with Max's "heir" (one of the major stipulations in this plan seemingly BESIDES the Granilith, the podsters heads on a platter... Kivar HAS the Granilith now, but does he have Max's "heir")?

So is this timeline better or worse than the one from EOTW?? I PRESUME it must be better in SOME respect (if Max/Liz were MARRIED in that other lifetime and that seemingly wasn't good enough for fate! Blah!!). I'd also HATE to think Alex died basically for nothing (well, his death DID prove Tess' "evil"... so I guess his death wasn't totally pointless). Or Liz went through ALL of this suffering simply to unmask Tess (Hello!! Many a Liz Myther could have set the podsters straight... how frustrating! The girl has ALWAYS been "evil" ). EOTW had some greater purpose I HAVE to believe which I'm HOPING has yet to be revealed. Possibly that Destiny Book translation holds the answers? Unfortunately... we're going to have to wait until August for any HOPE of answers! If we get any at all! UGH!!

Melodious

I thought this episode was somewhat good but........I DO have some problems with it which I will address in another post but a few quickies I noticed....
Along with the MILEMARKER67----the footballposter right beside it---I am not absolutely sure but I think the jersey number is a 0???????ZERO????

and when Liz says Sean broke my heart---and Sean goes an hugs Liz well there is a 59 on his TSHIRT-----is this 1959???????hmmmmmmm

Was Mile Marker 67 were Maxcedo left the dead body as a clue in Max to the Max?

Edited to say:

Okay, nevermind. I found the answer on page 1. Thanks!

I'll have to rewatch for the 59 and 0

You should go check out Signs and Symbols and Behr Oh My

we're alway's trying to figure the backgrounds up

justsmile

The Liz and Max kiss with no flashes, I think that it is Liz that has shut herself off to Max. She would have begun this after TEOTW so that Max wouldn't see FM. Tess has been helping Max to remember his past life with the memory retrieval sessions, thus his mind has been wide open to her so of course she flashes that he kissed Liz. He is in love with Liz and he can't hide it from someone who has had complete access to his mind and has most likely been planting memories there. Notice that each of the people who did the tapping were those that Tess had 'erased' their memories. Maybe if she only planted memories, no tapping.

I agree that there is most likely something more to the book. It did seem that Tess became more frantic about going home after Alex returned.

Also, the bit where Kyle suddenly refered to Tess as his sister makes a lot of sense - it was an implanted memory/mindwarp so that Tess could go after Max with no challenges from Kyle. She had already begun the memory retrieval sessions with Max.

TTFN

A couple observations: we leave the group in a V formation as Tasyfa notes. Max is centered. FINALLY? In the finale of Destiny, when Tess asked (wretch) "What do we do now?" he was lost. He had no intentions of leading anything. This time, he has an answer, and he's in charge. Is and Liz stand behind in black v-neck sweaters, and the other three are yet one step further back, dressed in brown. Last season, there were four on the cliff. EOTW, if nothing else, increased their numbers to six.

When Max touched the Granolith (before Michael says he can't leave Earth), the inside mist forms a skull like right out of Raiders of the Lost Arc. It was a death sentence for him. When FLiz touched it, weren't there flashes of beautiful color? Tess only had them read what would make them the most compliant. Remember Liz's words to Max in MITC were that the Granolith is VERY powerful. I don't believe we've seen the last of it.

Metaphysical, nothing makes sense to me either. I'm really reaching. I had read this finale episode was intended by JK to be two hours and I sincerely believe the WB screwed us all. Every scene felt chopped and incomplete to me. Thank goodness for UPN.

One last attempt at clarity. I believe finger-tapping is a form of fidgeting. We've observed Max fidgeting more lately than ever before. Remember the baseball glove at the funeral? The nail biting? And of course there's the footmassage. I have no idea what's real, etc. But I do believe there's been a fair amount of "fog" in Max's brain and he's beginning the process of de-tess. -HH

As for the son, part of me really wants it to be a bad nightmare and that season 3 will just void it like it never happened but somehow that might be wishful thinking since the cliffhanger is all about getting the son back.

Well the good news is that even though Kivar might have the son, Max is still alive and until the King is dead the child will be of no use. The deal was to bring the child with Max, Is, and Michael, so that the King will be killed and the son will rule, not to bring the heir and still have the King alive.

Tess failed and she will be killed just like Nasaedo. Unless Tess really is Kivar's sister. Either way, thank goodness for the humans, what will the podsters do without them? They probabably wouldn't be alive to wonder about that!

Great catch by you and Tasyfa.

quote:Originally posted by haniczka:
When Max touched the Granolith (before Michael says he can't leave Earth), the inside mist forms a skull like right out of Raiders of the Lost Arc. It was a death sentence for him. When FLiz touched it, weren't there flashes of beautiful color? Tess only had them read what would make them the most compliant. Remember Liz's words to Max in MITC were that the Granolith is VERY powerful. I don't believe we've seen the last of it.

I knew there was something there, I just couldn't make it out.

quote:Originally posted by haniczka:
One last attempt at clarity. I believe finger-tapping is a form of fidgeting. We've observed Max fidgeting more lately than ever before. Remember the baseball glove at the funeral? The nail biting? And of course there's the footmassage. I have no idea what's real, etc.

I just posted about how those that tapped were the ones that Tess had erased memories. Max was also fidgeting - just not tapping, was that because his memories weren't erased just new ones planted?

quote:Originally posted by haniczka:
But I do believe there's been a fair amount of "fog" in Max's brain and he's beginning the process of de-tess. -HH

you are tooo funny

I do have a question about Tess little speech---if she believed she was going to hand the 3 over to Kivar why did she say the problem was you not wanting to go home--I was going to TEACH YOU but...... TEACH YOU? What was that about???

This is DIFFERENT from the beginning of the DBook translation. I unfortunately don't have it saved, but it started like this:
"You are the Royal 4. Zan the King, Ava his Queen, Vilandra his sister and Rath his Second in Command..."

And I know the Mommogram never mentioned the phrase "Royal 4" at all. So, here's the question: was what Kyle remembered Alex reciting the TRUE translation of the DBook, and the one that Liz retrieved from Leanna's computer in the middle of nowhere was a slightly altered version? Obviously the granolith instructions were correct--at least, to a point. I'm wondering if that really was the end of the granolith, or if the shop was stored above it and Tess was merely transported into the ship and the lauch sequence started. The way it was filmed, it's somewhat ambiguous as to the actual location of the ship and whether or not it included the granolith chamber. Perhaps that was only ONE of its uses, the only one that Tess cared to make use of.

Additionally, in EOTW the crystal is not completely ingested by the base of the granolith, it only sides in halfway and sticks there. FMax did not touch the granolith, he just suddenly disappeared and reappeared inside it. Also, the flashing lights and stuff that happened when Tess entered the granolith were what happened when FLiz placed her hand on its surface after FMax was inside. FMax was also sucked up through the top of the chamber, and we know where/when he went after that. Of course, any differences could be attributed to the so-called modifications for time travel that were made, but I simply cannot believe that it's that simple! I refuse

I also noticed the 59 on the bottom of Sean's shirt. While I'm still inclined to think of Sean as a good guy b/c Liz trusts him (and boiy are her instincts right!), I still think he might be Tic Tac.

Additionally, when Tess MWs Kyle in her bedroom, there is a different sound, one that I haven't heard accompanying her MWs before. It sounds like the murmuring of hundreds of voices. It just makes me wonder if Tess is not alone in her mind, esp. since she seemed to be having second thoughts a couple of times--until she realized that Max had kissed Liz.

I think my brain hurts
~Tas

[/B]

Wow! that is the exact thing I've been thinking. It makes so much sense to me. By mindwarping someone, Tess is only making the person see what isn't there, like an hilucination. But if she actually goes into the persons brain and erases a memory... well actually she only blocks it sense everyone starts remembering. Anyway, I could see how that could cause damage to the brain if done often enough, thus Alex's demise. This could also be what is causing the fingertapping..... switched or block synapsis (excuse my spelling).

I also believe that there is more to the Granalith than Tess's version of the Destiny book states. In fact, I've got the strange feeling that she knows more about controlling it than the podsters realize and that she may have just steered it to another part of the world instead of going back to Antar.

Did anyone else think it a little odd that so much screen time was given to Tess once she was in the Granalith and ready to take off? I kept expecting some kind of alien, maybe even Khivar, to come out from the void above her and kill her for not getting her job done.

RW

I suppose there is still hope for brighter days in Season 3. I think of FARSCAPE's last season finale (I don't know how many in here watch this show). They killed off one of their main characters and half the canon couple of the show (Aeryn, half of John/Aeryn). In the Season Premiere of the new season, Aeryn was miraculously brought back to life. So all seemed darkest in the Season Finale, but all was made right again by the season premiere.

It IS possible ROSWELL could work out of the slump it's been in (ahem, basically the entirety of Season 2) and make it VERY clear in the first ep of Season 3 on a NEW network that things WILL be brighter (particularly for Liz and Max/Liz -- Tess warped the sex/baby? Future Max stuff comes out? Liz's powers are explored? Liz/Max rebuild their relationship and eventually become stronger than ever?). Of course, honestly, I feel FARSCAPE is a far superior show compared to ROS (even though the gap wasn't always so clearly defined - season2 ROS in a whole fell grossly short imo). Don't get me wrong, I still love ROS (which I suppose could be rather masochistic at this point as a Dreamer), but FARSCAPE *is* a better show (writing, acting, directing, special fx... everything). ROS could definitely learn a few things. I'm not holding my breath for better things for ROS, but I will retain a shred of hope... due to the adoration I retain for Season 1 and what I KNOW ROS can be, if it's nurtured as it should be.

Sorry for the o/t post y'all, but I had to say it.

Melodious

I think she is implying that she could have taught (implanted/mindwarped ideas) Max to think that he understood that what mattered was going home. The first part of her outburst is "What matters is going home but you could never understand that could you?"

Hopefully we will find out more about who Tess and Khivar really are in S3. IMO Tess is Khivar's sister.

Melodious I agree with you about FARSCAPE - I really love that show.

You know what this kind of reminds me of? NOT the Destiny Book translation... it reminds me of Momogram (I apologize if someone already caught this):

You perished in the conflict that enslaves our planet but your essence was duplicated, cloned, and mixed with human genetic materials so that you might be recreated into human beings. My son, you were the beloved leader of our people. I have sent with you your young bride. My daughter, the man you were betrothed to, and your brother's second-in-command.

Alex starts muttering something that sounds more similar to the Momogram then the Destiny Book (which he translated). Could this mean that the momogram was authentic and so was ALEX's version of the translation? HOWEVER, after Tess does a little "creative editing"... it's more to fit in with HER malevolent plans? She OMITTED what she DID NOT want the podsters to know?

Perhaps there is a COMPLETE and/or ACCURATE version of the translation still hiding somewhere? In Alex's computer files or somewhere Alex hid the translation that would allow only LIZ to find it at a "safer time"?

If Alex's version of the translation was authentic and Alex muttering it like he did IN FRONT OF Tess .... could Alex's murder have been more than just a simple accident? Could Tess have WANTED him dead because he was remembering the real translation? Maybe she didn't WANT to kill him but because he OBVIOUSLY began reciting ... this immediately turned Alex into a threat. A threat Tess had to deal with... so she tries to "erase" his memory... but it honestly wouldn't surprise me if she might have just been a little overzealous with her power. She pushed him over the edge which she probably KNEW he couldn't take.... and it killed him.... conveniently enough for her. Alex is dead now... he's NOT going to confess what Tess did to him OR possibly the REAL translation from the Destiny Book. Keeping her plan safe... for the moment that is. Until Kyle remembered Alex's visit, yada yada.

Melodious

Without Liz there would be NO Roswell...

Just popped in read but post this time instead of just lurking - While Departure showed Liz to be the uncelebrated heroine, YET again, those who were spoiled KNOW that Liz had the spotlight that was supposed to have shed light on her importance stripped from her...and US for that matter

IN the past I would have said next ep or NEXT season but this year has taught me that this is a waist of time...whether JK will ever get his act together I am not sure? however of one thing I am sure - Liz is kept alive here and this place ranks as a true haven for a lost dreamer...

thanks zero and all....

IMO, what Alex mutters is more similar to the momogram then the Destiny Book translation that we were introduced to. Hence, it almost makes me wonder if both the momogram AND Alex's "mutterings" were accurate.... the version Liz/Mike/Maria found however was NOT, or at least not entirely complete.

quote:So, here's the question: was what Kyle remembered Alex reciting the TRUE translation of the DBook, and the one that Liz retrieved from Leanna's computer in the middle of nowhere was a slightly altered version?

If it was altered, who altered it? That's probably a dumb question... but that goes all back to who was controlling Alex while he was in Las Cruces. I'm sure Tess started the warp and continued it somewhat while Alex was in LC, but could she have had help? It wouldn't surprise me. WHO was bunked in that abandoned house with the computer and crystal? Who set up that pyramid bomb (to rather conveniently be thwarted by someone with "otherworldly" abilities... Mike just threw it out the window basically)?

[quote]Obviously the granolith instructions were correct--at least, to a point. I'm wondering if that really was the end of the granolith

I simply cannot believe that it's that simple! I refuse[quote]

I also refuse to believe we've seen the last of the Granilith Tas! Of course, has anyone seen River Dog lately? UGH. Although if the Granilith was sacrificed for River Dog's return, I'd be all for it. I'd rather know RD was safe and sound and NOT totally lost in the continuity abyss then see the giant alien sno-cone return

Melodious

We know that Nasedo made a deal with Kivar to deliver Max's heir and Max, Iz, and Michael. A plan that t*** willingly and unloyaly (is that a word? ) went along with. Now, let's go back to the original timeline where Max and Liz cemented and t*** left. She saw that something happened between Max and Liz that made it obvious nothing nor no one would ever be able to come between. She knew she had a mission to accomplish and knew that by the look of things, she would not succeed. So she left. Kivar of course, is still waiting for deal that was made to be delivered to him. Let's pretend that this deal had a time limit. What was the time limit? I don't know, I haven't had a chance to really think about it, but it would make sense no? If there was a time limit and the time ran out and nothing came, then perhaps Kivar got really angry and felt that Nasedo and t*** mad a fool out of him. Not knowing what t*** was up to or if she was still with the podsquad he sends out more 'troops' to destroy not just Max, Iz, and Michael, but also t***, who would have been spared had she kept her end of the bargain. Of course by then t*** is gone and the remaining podsquad thinks that the reason they couldn't win was because t*** was needed, blah, blah... So then FM goes back in time and we all know what followed and another timeline was created. I actually think that t*** was not working alone, not sure who it was, but if there was/is others helping her, then maybe they were informants of Kivar who kept him up-to-date and told him that yes, a baby was conceived and so on.
NOW, I still don't think that neither the tex nor the baby are real. Maybe I'm an eternal optimist or just in denial, but I will need to see it to believe it. I also don't think that JK will take the show in this direction. What's more fun that looking for a maybe-alien-baby, son of the enemy I do think that it MIGHT start out that way, but something will happen (MW revealed?) will take the scooby gang in another direction. The real purpose will be discovered and followed. Getting off topic, what I was saying about the baby not being real. It would make no sense that t*** be doing the MW making Max think the baby is real cuz she would know the truth and by going home without the baby would surely mean her death. SO, has anyone considered the possibility that maybe it's someone GOOD that's behind this illusion of the baby? This is really out there, I know it but let's consider it. Maybe the real protector knew about the deal all along and for some reason was unable to get to them and tell them about it. And somehow, to protect Max made him and t*** think they slep together and are now gonna have a baby What would be the point of that. Well, that way, should someone figure things out or whatever (did I mention I'm real tired? ) and t***'s cover was blown she would still think she was preggers and leave without a fuss. I don't know if any of this made sense I had 2 finals today that I spent all last night studying for and got only 2 hours sleep. Not to mention another final tomorrow I still need to finish studying for. Feel free to tear this theory to shreads, I know there's holes in it. It's the best I could do with a crowded brain right now

I also think that "destiny" no longer has any meaning. That whole thing about Max having to be with t*** came from Nasedo who is a LIER and BETRAYER Nothing that came from his mouth is relevant anymore, just like t***. Here's another idea Remember how Nasedo always said that humans weren't important and how LIZ especially shouldn't be around the royal four? Well, now we know that whenever he said something about "destiny" it was to serve his own selfish purposes, so maybe all he said was meant to be the opposite. Maybe he knew how important the humans were in the grand scheme of things, but letting the truth come out would have foiled his plans. Anyone?

Be back tomorrow when I move back home.

Nite all

Roxy

Someone else mentioned that they also thought that there was a lot of screen time spent on Tess in the Granolith. It sure did seem as if she wasn't to happy and maybe she was not so certain she was going to be ok. Matter of fact, for the first time she really looked lost. Anyone else?

But I do think she was the real traitor on Antar and Vilondra was framed.

Minus 300 or so posts and with an older password, but hey, it makes me look so much younger!

So then, in EOTW scenario, I am assuming Tess joined forces with Nicholas et al. and was destroying the world piece by piece for some nefarious purpose.

But I still think she was just a misguided alien girl.

But I do think she was the real traitor on Antar and Vilondra was framed.

I think the truth finally came out when she asked Max why he couldn't feel for her the way he felt for Liz. IMO Tess was the political bride and Max didn't really love her. Thus why Ava always felt that Zan was looking for someone else. Possibly on Antar Zan had a real love and it wasn't Ava and Tess remembers this. Also, if she is Khivar's sister, she would be more than happy to bring down the royal's because she feels rejected. Only she gets killed and before she has sired an heir. So, Khivar makes a deal with Nesado to get Tess/Ava to finish the job. But I really like the idea (can't remember who posted it - so sorry) that Tess was being MW into believing that she was prego by the true protector. Humm - Sean........

Just speculating as usual.

Hurry up S3-----

Everyone has some great catches and while reading the various insights, I came up with a spec.

Would it be possible that Alex secretly took the book and started decoding it on his own?? (to help the podsters) Tess could have discovered this and deviced the "Sweden" trip to work in her favor. She covered her tracks and made sure Alex wouldn't remember. BUT HE DID!! Her plan was to have Max's heir and return home with M/I/M. The book conveniently laid out how to go home. So when Alex came over telling the "truth" and knowing full well what the message from the book was, she killed him so she wouldn't get caught; so the correct info wouldn't be passed on to Max.

What bothers me about all this - is the Momogram for real?? I would think not!! And this brings us to square 1. How convenient for the Mother (someone who you would believe) to say that Max - the leader came to earth with his young bride!! Nacedo and Tess's plan from the get-go was to convince Max to have relations with her, have her behr his heir (OK, now I'm ryhming -) and go back home!!

I'm getting more confused by the minute!! Hopefully, you insightful, intelligent posters can clear this MUD!!

I don't know about the rest of you but I didnt' like Max finding out about the Kyle thing from Liz---WRONG!!!! After all this time she remained silent yes I know she was hurting and understandably so but I much would have rather this info come from Kyle myself.
And I think Michael should have told Maria he was leaving B4 the act??????? Yes I know you can say he made up for it at the end by not LEAVING but still--didn't like that at all---and where was Maria's reaction to him leaving??????? She said NOTHING just laid there?
And although sometimes Max seemed like himself in this eppy at times I thought he STILL seemed to be thinking not too clearly like at the university---Liz called him on this as well--still fuzzball brains there Max?
Although I still liked this episode somewhat I thought ESPECIALLY after finding out about the Kyle thing that Max should have been shown having a harder time LEAVING LIZ--I mean in Season1 it appeared to me that LIZ was most important to Max--remember his reaction to Liz being hurt in that virtual reality in WR??? And yet he leaves a KILLER ON THE LOOSE? I know there was little he could do because of the damn child but I would have liked to have seen him STRUGGLING with this DEPARTURE in light of Liz's revelation not just the one little crying scene.

Last year with Liz and Max we had the RED STAR hmmmmm?????????

Just a thought!

Hey all.....

DeeDee

The great minds of Antar had a reason. Max/Zan to find his true path. Purpose, truth. Liz is in that puzzle.

DeeDee

I thought Departure was ok, more then I expected considering these are season 2 writers.
So Tess was evil? The writers clued us in on this as soon as she set foot in Roswell. I can't believe how angry some posters are about the writers making sweet loveable Tess evil, how dare they. I just love this thread, the true voice of reason. Their is no wool over our eyes.

I still think Tess mindwarped Max. I'm not saying the Tex or the baby is real or not. I don't think we got a strait answer, anything that comes out of Tess's mouth can't be trusted and Max has his SMax memories. What ever the answer I still think Max was lead into accepting Tess with mindcontrol. Tess is still in the game, baby or not, she will tell Keivar that Max believes she is having his child. Keivar will take it from there and come up with another plan.
So is the finger tapping only a side effect humans have or was Tess pulling double duty on Max, so no tapping, yet?? I love how Liz noticed the increased tapping meant Kyle was close. That's our Liz, saved those hybrid butts once again, ok Maria and Kyle helped, but Liz was the leader. I love how these three work together. The podsters should take lessons from them.

For not one moment did I believe the baby was sick, if their is a baby? Tess on the other hand might have been sick because of all the mindcontroling she was doing. She did look like something the cat dragged in.

Sorry I forgot who posted that Tess used the persons name to keep the mindwarp going or memories from returning. ITA with you because I also noticed and took this as a clue. You pointed out that Tess said Max a few times during his blow up with Liz, no one other then Tess repeats names. Tess repeated Alex's name but her hypnosis wasn't working, his brain was mush, so she went to plan B and used another warp killing poor innocent Alex.
I also noticed that she kept repeating Kyle's name during the confrontation with Alex. I'm wondering if Kyle has some kind of power that helped him remember, the harder Tess hugged the more he seemed to remember? As for Amy it was strange that she had some kind of relapse. Tess must have lost her touch. Their is a possibility that someone was working with Tess, but why didn't they try to return to Antar? Maybe because their mission was to stay on earth and close to Liz. Could it be Sean?, as someone mentioned before, Amy did come out of the relapse rather sudden, was Sean around?
Did any of notice what Michael said to Max about protecting Liz...long pause, Kyle, Valenti and Maria. I might have read to much into this but you would think Michael would mention Maria first. Maybe he was trying to get Max to change his mind, almost saying, "you know LIZ, the girl you love," but then Tess pulls her, oh Max the baby and he proceeds to warm up the Granolith.
I'm so happy Tess has been found out, I'm sure she well be back next season with her skin family in tow. Maybe by then Liz will have her powers all warmed up and ready for battle with the blond.

Evid

Dayneen - I never thought of this. This is why I come here, you guys make me see things from different directions.

Mel – I too think the book had to have had more in it than just instructions about the us of the Granolith – just think about the pictures that we know exist – they have nothing to do with the Granolith! What was in the book – well, Liz and company should be able to figure it ALL out since they still have the original book and could probably gain access to the super computer at the University of LC! BUT they never seem to pursue this type of stuff! SCREAM!

Tasyfa – I completely agree with your interpretation of the “hug” at the end. And I do agree with you explanation re: the Tess kiss, but it still crated on me. But that was probably the only way they could think to “let Tess Know” that Max had kissed and still loved Liz. An essential element of the story – his continuing connection and love for Liz, no matter what! And I’m hoping you are correct about the mind control of Max! And that would be such a great scene if they did do one where he found out there wasn’t an observatory in Roswell! Oh – and yes, that was me you heard going “NO, please don’t let her blast off!” I SOOO wanted the entire Tess/Tex/baby thing to be wrapped up in a tight little package, but that last scene of the previews foretold the horrible truth to me. And unfortunately, my fears were realized! Also – I think the version retrieved is altered! And the Granolith in TEOTW does not Change at all – remember FL is thrown to the ground and gets up after FM is gone with a sad “Max!” call!

Mel – I also think that it was Tess who betrayed her love, but I’m still confused (so what else is new) by Whitaker and the things she said and did??? Maybe Tess was related to Kivar and somehow “arranged” the affair with Kivar, and then faked the betrayal? Don’t apologize for your rant – though I don’t watch Farscape, I do agree that Roswell fell far short this season of what it could have been in so many ways!

Oh and great analysis of how TEOTW fit in!!

Grace Kel – Atherton was killed in 1959! Probably connected to the Harding (not convinced he is Nasedo!) and Kivar deal. I think Harding was an imposture of some kind – and since I believe there were many visits to Earth prior to the crash – Harding could have come at one of many times. About your question about Tess’ speech – I can’t answer because it didn’t all make sense to me either. Why would she care if he loved her or not if she knew he was going to be killed as soon as the got back? A lot of this type of stuff drives me nuts! I guess when you are writing, it is hard to step back from it and catch the ridiculousness of it all like us further removed from it all!

RW – I also thought Tess was given too much screen time while in the Granolith, but than, I think Tess was given too much screen time all Season long!

I’m going to have to rewatch the ending to catch the “formation” and the black V-necks!

Okay, am I the only one that thought the trajectory of the ship/Granolith was crazy – like a spaceship on drugs!? Maybe the droid from Space Tours at Disneyland was driving it?

Starcat – you are welcome!

Mel – I totally agree about River Dog – and Fricken Eddie, too! In fact, I want all the native American references, etc. to be brought back in! It is NM already!!

Sunrise – I’m going to take your thoughts on the real protector a step further – I still think there is a protector out there watching Liz! I still think she is the Key – and that exposing her importance was too dangerous with Tess still around. Tess viewed Liz as the annoying little B#@ch, but not much more – though a B#@ch with limited powers after MITC. I think she is more important (obviously – I started this thread ) , but really, I think that even if Max had gone back, Liz would have somehow been able to “reach” out to him and save him! Why not astral project to Antar? Only a little further than NY! Liz is essential to the empowerment of Max – regardless of where he resides – and it would have only been a matter of time before Liz would have figured it all out. I guess we will have to wait and see – but I will say it again Tic Tac is NOT Harding! And Tic Tac is still out there somewhere! (Sean?? )

Now some random thought after rewatching the episode with CC on.

Again the music is very telling, especially the “Spider Web” song played during the Killing of Bob and the walk through the tunnel!

The circles behind Maria in the intro shrunk in size!

Why didn’t anyone question the fact that the crystal was so conveniently sitting there with the transcription?

Sean gets an ear piercing – Courtney asked Mikey G about piercings – the Dupes loved piercings! Um….?

Loved the Heckyl & Jeckyl comment by Kyle! Thank God someone still has a wit and sense of humor on the show!

Notice that Max cannot look at Liz’s bed when he walks into her bedroom at the beginning! Talk about something emotionally affecting him! And once again – thank goodness – Liz insists on going with him!

Liz is concerned that Max has “no plan” – there is that Planning! She is always a girl with a Plan! And she “doesn’t FEEL right” about what Max wants to do – Heighten Intuition I truly believe is one of her “powers” and I would love to see this developed next Season.

I think the outline for next season was set out at Alex’s gravesite. Iz states that she hasn’t even lived yet … and Alex mentions “Your heart is your heart, and your soul is your soul.” Then Iz states that “1/2 of me is from here, ½ of me is from there. What makes one more important than the other?” (FINALLY!!! ) Alex comes back with “that’s what you have to figure out!” Sound like the premise for next season?

There was a number of lines of Liz’s in the Jeep that are on CC but not heard - she explains what they have to do with the blood – before Max pulls the Jeep off the road. Shiri acting when Max reveals that he and Tess “spent the night together” – interesting choice of words, no “sex” or “made love” – is wonderful!! You could just feel the disbelief and chill come over her heart!

Mirrors trigger Kyle’s memory! Grace Kel – I think you’ve done an entire summary of Mirrors’ importance before?

It was “3” in the morning that Liz wakes up Sean.

Well, once again my emotional self has been restored to my rational investigative self – and most of it is due to the wonderful posters on this thread! Thanks! That’s all I have to say. Time to sleep! ! !

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I was over at the spoiler board - now that I can't be spoiled! And it got me thinking about what I think is necessary in Season 3?

Well, I want to see a lot, but one scene I really want to see is the ENTIRE Scooby Gang sitting down together and the following statement being made - "Okay, we have all keep secrets from one another, and not been up-front with each other - the result is that we have hurt each other and not operated as a cohesive unit like we should. There is safety only if we work together and treat each other with respect and total honesty. No more secrets starting now!"

Okay - I just wanted to say that! I SOOO want to see them working like a team (like on Buffy) and stop all the in-fighting, bickering, deception of Season 2. They have to learn to trust each other, or they will never survive!

Night All!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

What if Tess is a decoy, and it's all about the Granolith? After forty years, it has been returned to his hands. -HH

poor alex... his mind was fried. i really wished max blasted tess and that "unborn child". i'm sounding cruel.. sorry.. but what if that duration of time that the atmosphere was "poisining the baby", it leaves some sort of defect on the unborn fetus. i mean that, what's the most that tess was "pregnant" and in the atmosphere? 3, 4 days the most? and the gestation is 1 month. the first 3-4 days would equvilant to 1 month of gestation and when the building blocks of an infant is constructed. isn't the 1st trimester the most crucial? so what if the "alien baby" was poisoned in some way? what would be the outcome of the "alien baby"?

all the secretive actions of tess.. does leave a lot of questions. true, why can't tess have asked alex to decipher the book, rather than frying his poor brain. there must be so much more to the book than what was printed out on the manual. if tess was mind warping alex during the whole time, she could have easily found out what was deciphered and erased parts of the book or stored it somewhere... maybe the portion that the hybrids weren't to mate together but w/ human counterparts for the survival of the race... as we see what would happen if the podsters had babies together... the atmosphere poisoning the babies.... there won't be the start of a new generation if everytime they conceive and the baby will die.

if tess seems not fearful of going back to antar and to kivar... she may just be the sister to kivar. a different race from max/zan that marrying ava/tess as a means to unite 2 races... but power hungry kivar, since his sister is wed to the king, kills zan when he gets back to anatar and use the "alien baby" as leverage to rule the planet. w/ ava/tess as the supportive mom and the baby as the legal ruler of the planet w/ uncle kivar to make him a puppet.
it just may be logical.

i loved it when tess and max kissed, and tess saw that max kissed liz... the crushed look on her face.... priceless. she must have the sense that max truly loved liz, for him to be open for tess to see that. i was almost expecting max to see a flash of fmax, but since liz was hurt by the fact that tess was pregnant and that max wasn't a virgin anymore, then she wasn't totally open w/ max for him to see the flashes. then tess had to ruin my moment by saying that he wouldn't remember her when they got back home.... hm.. what other memories would be wiped out as well should they return home? i can't believe max wouldn't have questioned that.

sorry for the long post.

I've always had a problem with the idea that the Antarians sent the Royal 4 and that without all of their powers they would not be "strong" enough and would lose the war. It doesn't make sense, in war there is death, and there is always a great possibility that one or more of the Royals would die during this fight. Heck they died in the previous life.

I wonder if FMax finding out about Tess going to the dark side was revealed to him on purpose, and then from there whomever, perhaps Serena or someone else close to FMax and FLiz planted the idea of going back in time to "change" things and using the granilith to do so.

I too hope Liz's sacrifice in EOTW wasn't all for nothing. That would be a shame

About the mindwarping, something to consider is that if indeed Max was mindwarped he probably will have different side effects from the extended warping than humans. All the humans that were mindwarped were doing the tapping. Max being an alien, his side effect to the warping could be oh being a jerk, acting totally out of character, which has been the case with Max every since he started to "remember" Tess. And I think someone else mention him being fidgety. This could also be a side effect from warping.

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I can't believe that after everything - Liz (Departure)

Did anyone notice how Alex was thrown into the car? His head hits the part of the seat where blood was in CYN! That would explain it’s weird placement! I thought that was a nice tie-in by the writer's.

what if, that thermal alien found out about the deal that nacedo made w/ kivar and he is the one that killed nacedo, working w/ the skins. but really is a guardian. i just can't dismiss the thermal alien as a skin, when the opportunity to kill liz and maria was right there, but didn't act on it. i think there's something more to it. and just how did nicholas survive the fireball. still too many angles to go upon.

but if returning to antar would wipe out their memories on earth, it is totally pointless to be sent to earth in the first place, since mom-o-gram told them to learn what they can from their enemies and to come home and defeat kivar's power.

True. I hope her statement isn't another CHAD.But who knows what Khivar had planned for the podsters once they returned to Antar. We all assumed they would be immediately killed. Maybe they wouldn't have beeen, perhaps there would've been some kind of torture, mindraping, imprisonment, etc., in which any memories from Earth would be wiped out. After all if coming to Earth was to help the podsters become better aliens etc., Khivar would definitely want to wipe out what they learned, especially if for some reason he wanted to keep Max alive.

--------------
I can't believe that after everything - Liz

What if Tess is a decoy, and it's all about the Granolith? After forty years, it has been returned to his hands. -HH

Whassamp mythers!
Hanickza...on the previous thread I posted this long theory about it all being about the Granolith, but I don't know if anybody was feeling me. I felt it may have been worshipped because it ultimately is a savior for beings on Antar (b/c possibly the Antarians need to planet hop b/c Antar may be a red giant that is near explosion) and that Antarians will become like MMI & T in the future (soomething to that effect). I'm glad someone may feel the same way.

With this new information (and mental review of old episodes), it is safe to say that the betrayer in the past life was Tess. I say this for 2 reasons:
* Tess' actions in this life (aside: remember the Tess silverhandprint interview about Nasedo when she said despite Nasedo's death she could "do what she was doing before without him" -- Departure gives new meaning to that huh)
* Lonnie - I know Lonnie seemed treacherous and also seemed like she remembered her past life, but I noticed something in MITC that bothered me then that didn't make sense until after Departure. Remember that Lonnie said she remembered her past life and wanted it back...but she was flirting with NICHOLAS and talking about NICHOLAS, not Kivar. The significance? Either a) Nicholas is Kivar, or b) she wasn't the one involved with Kivar or c) Nick is bold enough to have an affair with his present ruthless king's love interest. I lean towards b) because I doubt Nick is that bold or powerful on the home planet (or else HE would have been king) and I doubt King Kivar would be out doing reconnaisance missions.

I feel the Skins knew Tess betrayed Max in the past life, and that's why they spread the lie that Zan was betrayed by his sister Vilondra. This would serve a few purposes:
1) Tess is more likely to be trusted subconsciously by Max, who thinks he knows what happened in the past life. See #2
2) This lie would cause tension between Max and Isabel while diverting attention from Tess, helping alienate him from his sibling and making him vulnerable to trusting Tess.
3) Kivar prolly believes that the aliens would mate up on Earth, and according to this if #2 happened, Michael (who they figured would be Is's lover on earth) would take Is's side, further alienating Max from his followers and pushing him more towards Tess.
4) In other words, divide and conquer... create a scenario where the one Max trusts is the betrayer and the ones he doesn't trust should be his most trusted servants.

Okay, so Tess MindWarped Alex into translating the Destiny book (whether or not she did some editing in between) but it was only by intuition, following a few hard earned clues, and a bit of deception that Liz found it at all. Why did Tess mindwarp Alex into translating it and then just let it lie there through all the hybrid chronicles and beyond?

Did she mean for Liz to find it because the podsters would trust it more if it came from Liz? So was she the one leaving clues for Liz (the cut up picture etc.)? And if she wasn't, who was?

Hmm, I had a thought about Kyle. Someone before (sorry, i forget who) asked if maybe Kyle had some sort of power that he was able to push through the mindwarp like that. Remember: Kyle was healed by Max. Maybe this is one of his changes? This little theory is discredited a bit because Amy was able to push through her mindwarp for a little while. BUT, Kyle permanently broke out of his mindwarp, and Amy didn't. I don't know, I may be way off. I also noticed that Kyle's trigger was mirrors - what significance do mirrors hold in terms of Kyle?

Also, although I want to believe that tex and the baby are a mindwarp, and I am sure that the baby not being able to survive is a lie, that's actually a reason for Kyle and Amy to be breaking out of their mindwarps. If Tess was sick because of the baby, she would be weak and her power would be weak too.

z.a.
*Dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

As far as the baby being sick, I don't think the baby was sick. I think that was a ploy to get Isabel, Michael, and Max off the planet, after all if the baby wasn't sick they wouldn't have been leaving.

Also, I think the reason why Amy and Kyle started to remember what had happened to them was because the memory implantation that Tess had done had started to wear off. Since Kyle and Amy weren't mindwarped for an extended amount of time(actually it was more like memory erasing and memory replacement rather than mindwarping), Amy once, Kyle twice, I believe the memories Tess implanted beganed to fade more quickly, were as with Alex, his mind had been decieved with memory implantation as well as mindwarping for months therefore it took longer for Tess' mind manipulations to wear off.

I'm also thinking that Tess probably had a plan on how to get the deciphered book to the podsters, but she never got a chance to implement it because Alex started to remember what had happened to him. I'm betting that Tess had no idea that her memory implantations were only temporary until Alex showed up at the Valenti's the night he died. And I'm still not convinced she worked alone. There's no way she could've excuted this plan by herself. I hope the writer's address this in Season 3.

-----------------
I can't believe that after everything - Liz

With this new information (and mental review of old episodes), it is safe to say that the betrayer in the past life was Tess. I say this for 2 reasons:
* Tess' actions in this life (aside: remember the Tess silverhandprint interview about Nasedo when she said despite Nasedo's death she could "do what she was doing before without him" -- Departure gives new meaning to that huh)
* Lonnie - I know Lonnie seemed treacherous and also seemed like she remembered her past life, but I noticed something in MITC that bothered me then that didn't make sense until after Departure. Remember that Lonnie said she remembered her past life and wanted it back...but she was flirting with NICHOLAS and talking about NICHOLAS, not Kivar. The significance? Either a) Nicholas is Kivar, or b) she wasn't the one involved with Kivar or c) Nick is bold enough to have an affair with his present ruthless king's love interest. I lean towards b) because I doubt Nick is that bold or powerful on the home planet (or else HE would have been king) and I doubt King Kivar would be out doing reconnaisance missions.

I feel the Skins knew Tess betrayed Max in the past life, and that's why they spread the lie that Zan was betrayed by his sister Vilondra. This would serve a few purposes:
1) Tess is more likely to be trusted subconsciously by Max, who thinks he knows what happened in the past life. See #2
2) This lie would cause tension between Max and Isabel while diverting attention from Tess, helping alienate him from his sibling and making him vulnerable to trusting Tess.
3) Kivar prolly believes that the aliens would mate up on Earth, and according to this if #2 happened, Michael (who they figured would be Is's lover on earth) would take Is's side, further alienating Max from his followers and pushing him more towards Tess.
4) In other words, divide and conquer... create a scenario where the one Max trusts is the betrayer and the ones he doesn't trust should be his most trusted servants.

I hear exactly what you are saying!

I've read this thread for a very long time - but I've never posted because I can never get my thoughts out enough for this thread - it amazes me!

Ok, but just let me say your #2 approach seems to have happened in the last few episodes...or maybe I'm wrong but:

Max tells Isabel she can't go away, he treats her sooo badly & it pushes Isabel away. To the point she won't even talk to him, he feels like he's losing her (but she's not betraying him, she's just pissed at him - normal reaction) Soooo he goes to Tess, this is when he "sleeps" with Tess, when he's lost everyone. He feels betrayed by his sister - "again" so he now trusts Tess...

Anyhow, I just thought that was a perfect example to what you were saying!

(Oh yeah, and this is completely off & kinda silly but I watch General Hospital & Genie Frances's character on that show has a son who's "soul mate" is LIZ and its funny how they have that little saying with one another about the key & permanant lock on their hearts or whatever. Anyhow (and Genie Frances played Max's mother) - ok I know it doesn't go together I just thought it was funny)

Cantbehrit

Evid...posted about Kyles finger tapping. Did you notice he kept fingertapping on Tess' back while they were hugging? Also Amy relived the hostage situation while holding one of the t-shirts they had taken to the UFO Center.

Here's a theory about Alex.

If Alex made the correct translation of the book and T*** altered it, then how will the podsters ever know the true translation?

Alex was smart and liked to play music and a true computer geek. What if Alex made a copy of the true translation by putting a message within a message that only Liz can interpet based on a musical progression defined by the binary code he wrote on the credit card receipt. This would fall in line with theories posted both season one and two about musical symbolism.

It was strange that the real book was only about 10 pages but the interpetation was about 50 pages or more. Surely the pod squad read the entire "book" translation before trying to blast off into space.

Any thoughts???

However, I also believe it's because Liz is now HIDING something (FM). Michael tells Maria that's the reason she hasn't seen flashes, because he, too was hiding things from her. Until Max knows the entire truth, there will be no flashes, and they won't be soul-mates.

Zero, did Sean just get his ear pierced? Odd timing. Kyle says it could be seen as "gay" and Sean says he has to get out of this town. I don't know what to make of Sean at all. I liked my theory best: Sean is Zan. I know that's ridiculous.

Darkangel, you're right; I did read your earlier post. I think you jokingly compared worshiping the Granilith to an airplane? That inspired my idea. I'm just amazed that none of the podsters thought about the repercussions of Khivar having the Granilith in his posession. I'm sure Whitaker was working with Tess in Surprise. She repeatedly threatened to hurt Tess so Is would break and tell her where it was (but Is didn't know yet).

Did you notice the misty with long hair that appeared when Max touched it to "warm it up" the last time? Maybe the Granilith knows the future, and that was Tess? or just Death?

Lastly, back to the final V. Max, Liz and Is in black, the others in brown. I believe the colors indicate rank. The three are now the royalty: king flanked by bride and sister. The rest of the party are in brown. Even Tess is demoted to wearing brown (I think for the first time ever) as she departs. -HH

Honestly Dayneen, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Tess had something to do with FMax/Liz's drastic plan. Tess was the major factor in them going back in the first place.... and WHAT happens in this "new" timeline? Tess is discovered to be involved in a plan to betray them all. A plan that Tess from that alternate EOTW timeline MUST have known about because Nasedo had made it 40 years ago. So WHAT purpose did EOTW serve? KEEP a traitor in their midst?? FMax/Liz COULDN'T have known about that plan Nasedo made, hence didn't realize what Tess was. I have to believe there had to have been at least ONE person who knew about that plan and was working it so this plan would succeed. It wouldn't surprise me if that was Serena.

quote:I've always had a problem with the idea that the Antarians sent the Royal 4 and that without all of their powers they would not be "strong" enough and would lose the war. It doesn't make sense, in war there is death, and there is always a great possibility that one or more of the Royals would die during this fight. Heck they died in the previous life.

That's also always bothered me Day. The lack of ONE and the whole mission fails? NOT WISE on the Antarians part, surely!! If the Dupes were informed of something similar (a member of their crew dying and they're all as good as dead) then you'd think they wouldn't have killed Zan, am I right? Either they weren't aware of it or this "lack of one" stuff is all crap, an incorrect deduction by FMax/Liz possibly based on lies (from Tess herself)?

One thing I want to say about Tess' "pregnancy"... I'm pretty damn certain Tess was lying at least about the pains she was experiencing, as well as the 1 month gestation stuff etc. I can't see how hybrids, if they WERE intended to "mate" with each other and procreate (doubtful honestly)... yet their pregnancies are so difficult and unfavorable to Earth's environment it would FORCE them to go home to a place where Kivar is waiting to take their heads off? Once again, makes NO SENSE. If Tess was pregnant (like I said, doubtful), the discomfort/sickness had to have been all an act.

As someone mentioned here already, Tess' face at the end of DEPARTURE didn't seem all that "victorious" to me. I don't see why not since she's delivering the Granilith AND Max's heir, isn't she? Even if she failed in bringing the podsters with her, I can't see how that could be a problem because Nikolas is stronger than all three of them combined anyway! Kivar gets word to Niko to slaughter the remaining Royals and Kiv wins because he would have the Granilith AND Max's heir. If Max, Michael and Isabel DO NOT die *immediately* in Season 3... then I'd have to think either Tess didn't make it to Antar and she wandered off somewhere else because...

A) She redirected the Granilith to some remote location on Earth ... She wanted to fulfill her WHOLE mission and somehow get Max, Michael and Isabel to Antar as well as deliver Max's heir and the Granilith.

B) " ... She's NOT pregnant and KNEW that if she wasn't, she'd be a liability to Kivar and he'd kill her the instant she stepped foot on the planet. So she's still on Earth and waiting for a chance to trick Max again to sleep with her and get pregnant?

C) " ... She CANNOT get pregnant with Max's child because hybrid/hybrid pregnancy is impossible and she KNOWS it. She hoped that if she simply delivered the Royals (at least Max and Isabel. Michael is unimportant and easily could be killed by Niko on Earth, since Niko did it before) to Kivar with the Granilith, he'd possibly let her live anyway for her loyalty even though she CANNOT get pregnant by Max. Hence, she has to at least get the Royals to Antar and the Granilith BEFORE she can go "home" because they're the ONLY cards she has to play (she can't get pregnant by Max).

D) "... Because Tess CANNOT get pregnant with Max's baby, she'll wait around until Max gets someone else pregnant. Probably Liz... and take Max/Liz's baby. Who is quite likely the TRUE and only heir anyway. Of course, that would mean Liz would have to get pregnant and NOW. I just DO NOT want to see Liz, a 17 yr old girl with a bright future ahead of her, pregnant. I don't care about the situation.

Melodious

When Max told Is that she was "home", I took that he knew in his heart that they were comfortable with each other - that there was no betrayal!! I completely took that scene that as brother and sister, there was trust in their past lifes. BUT: b/c Michael stopped the Granolith, saying he found home (Maria), then Is comments that Max was her "home" (stated AGAIN for emphasis??), confuses me!! Is' comment at the end reflected what Tess (Max's supposed mate) said last year in Destiny!! I'm really not sure what to make of all this??

I just wanted to say too, that everything that concerns Nacedo/Tess is questionable!! Is it not?? I hate to even open this can of worms, but what are we to believe and not believe?? Was the WR orchestrated to weaken Max for mindwarping?? Was Pierce part of the plan?? (dialoge from WR: Is to Michael: "He could be working for Pierce, we don't know anthing for sure") For what purpose, as a human being, would Pierce want to see the orbs work? At the end of WR, Pierce flew out of room at "super-man" speed, just like Max did to him!! Was/Is that a clue?? Was the Momo-gram real?? Was Nacedo really murdered?? I still feel that his "death" helped the pod-squad to feel something towards Tess. I know that Nacedo's scene at his vehicle noticing the shed skin seemed genuinely afraid, but maybe he felt threatened by the skins. Could they have been stalking him and this was a sign to show Nacedo they have had enough of him?? Here is another reason why he orchestrated his "death"!

Tess knew where that book was hidden!! She is the one that got it out of the wall as if it were planted there by Nacedo and herself. Why would there be info, other than what would benefit their plan to get M/M/I off to their planet with baby in toe?? If the other three came across it on their own, then I can see why Alex's death was important for Tess to keep him quiet. But to me, IMHO of course, why would Tess hand over a book containing key information that wouldn't help get her plan off and running??

So why kill Alex?? Maybe he found out that it was FAKE!!

I hope I was coherent!!

REALLY makes you wonder about Serena, doesn't it? Serena was a friend of LIZ's in the alternate life. Serena got close to Liz seemingly and NOT Max. If Serena was Tess, then Tess would have KNOWN the way you get to Max is THROUGH Liz - as opposed to a direct approach (as Tess realized from CRAZY, TLV, etc... DOES NOT work). Hence another reason why FMax went back to LIZ and no one else. Tess KNEW that the ONE person that could convince Max to do anything is Liz... as Serena, seeing it with her own eyes before her. Also, Tess would have realized she HAD TO basically obliterate Max's bond to Liz before Tess would be able to mindwarp him. With Liz at Max's side, he's stronger, and Tess knew it. This would also make Tess' vengeance all the more sweet in that it was Liz herself - basically her archnemesis - who pushed Max away and allowed her to put her swerve all over Max. This would also *badly* hurt Liz and make any kind of Max/Liz pairing nearly impossible in the future. Liz would come to the point possibly that she wouldn't push Max away because she *had to* (to save the world), she'd push him away because he's broken her heart and she doesn't want to have to face that kind of pain anymore.

quote:About the mindwarping, something to consider is that if indeed Max was mindwarped he probably will have different side effects from the extended warping than humans.[/B]

This is kind of scary. Let's just say Max's *eventual* reaction to Tess' warping or coming out of it (if she was indeed warping him and I haven't factored that out yet) WILL NOT be different from Alex's at all, but worse (since Max's warps had to be more significant for his hybrid mind, possibly more than one person has been warping Max, besides Tess). I'm still waiting for Max, however, to have post-traumatic stress disorder from his WHITE ROOM ordeal. Delayed anguish over being tortured.... combined with losing Liz (and believing he's ruined things with her forever)... believing he's lost his son ... coming out of the massive warp he's been under for the past few months (as Alex eventually did, via literally a breakdown) ... Max could quite possibly explode. I mean, Bellevue style. Max simply might not be able to deal with all of this stress and close his consciousness off from the real world. The BIY trash can tantrum was only the beginning... Max's psyche is going to go through the ringer in Season 3. His mind becomes so damaged, he falls into some kind of alien coma... something only Liz might be able to get him out of more than likely.

Many people aren't big Max fans at the moment either due to his behavior the past few eps (regardless of whether or not they were warp induced - which HAS NOT been discovered, this season at least). If Max basically had a severe mental breakdown... I think that this would probably get the Max naysayers to cool off and realize how much of a victim Max has also been in all of this. Tess warped him also to the point of insanity and pushed him over the edge. Not really giving a damn what that would do to him, since he was Kivarian ground beef anyway. Max also never loved Tess (not naturally anyway, if she has been warping him)... this could have been part of some revenge on him simply for not loving her as he loves Liz, a meager human.

Melodious

Interesting theory! I can't quite put my finger on Sean (so-to-speak ). I'd like to think there's something more than meets the eye, but he's been a Deluca since way before the Pod Squad was "out of the closet".

I'd also like to thank Alexis who's my savior. She let me borrow her tape of The Depature this morning, so I could tape it! And Metaphysicalgrl for pointing out the anglefire.com site. I spent 2.5 hours yesterday downloading a version, but well worth it (and what a great way to procrastinate). Thanks guys!

Ever since the promo aired it's been bugging me as to why Max, Liz and Isabel were basically wearing the same outfit. I think it has to do with what Max said to Iz in her room--that she's his home. B/c I think that's also true of Liz, both feeling that Liz is Max's home and vice versa.

Mel Thank you so much for elaborating on the DBook/Mommogram stuff. That's exactly what I meant, that I don't think the printout Liz obtained was the complete/accurate translation, I think Tess and her allies tweaked it.

As for Tess' revelation that it was Nasedo who made a deal 40 years ago...I'm inclined not to believe it. I think she made her own deal with Lonnie & Rath in MITC, or possibly was coerced herself into the deal. I agree with shapeshifter that she was having second thoughts, but it seemed like she didn't know what else to do. And at the end, when she was suspended in the granoltih, she looked not only lost but terrified. I think she told Max that Nasedo made the deal b/c she knew that would be less likely to get her killed. As it is, the only reason he didn't kill her is b/c of the baby (the reality of which I'm still reserving judgement on ).

Tess said that Alex died b/c the constant mindwarping had weakened his brain. Now, we know that she's been screwing with Max's memories, and I believe with his behaviour as well--augmenting his paranoid tendencies, etc. So, is Max's strange behaviour lately due not only to him being MWd, but b/c the process was affecting his brain? I know he supposedly has access to his whole brain, but that doesn't mean that he wouldn't be affected. Now that Tess is gone, I expect to see Max exhibiting signs of mind control also. But Departure is the first time since OTM (chronologically speaking) that I've felt I was actually seeing Max, so I think he's only just now breaking out of the control, which means that we should see him fingertapping or whatever in S3. Kudos to whomever pointed out the uncharacteristic nailbiting, I think that was also a clue about him resisting.

I think it was GraceKel who said you wanted Liz to ask where the condom had gone. I was thinking that too, the first time I saw it while they were sitting in the Jeep and he told her Tess was pregnant. The look on poor Lizzie's face...I actually assume that Max would have tossed away the condom after witnessing what he thought he did. I would have in his place
~Tas

[quote][b]Obviously the granolith instructions were correct--at least, to a point. I'm wondering if that really was the end of the granolith

I simply cannot believe that it's that simple! I refuse[quote]

I also refuse to believe we've seen the last of the Granilith Tas! Of course, has anyone seen River Dog lately? UGH. Although if the Granilith was sacrificed for River Dog's return, I'd be all for it. I'd rather know RD was safe and sound and NOT totally lost in the continuity abyss then see the giant alien sno-cone return

Melodious[/B]

Just thought I would pop my head in here quickly and say something about the Destiny Book Translation.

In the beginning of Season 3 we should see Liz and Max (or Liz alone) heading back over to Las Cruces University to the John Litvack center and see THEM use the Quantum computer to see if the translation was indeed accurate. That would be the smart thing to do. Like I've said previously, how can they trust ANY information they've been given so far. But then again, the Destiny book came from Tess/Nasedo so how do we even know the information contained within is accurate?

The more I think about the storylines they presented in Departure the more I am confused about everything leading up to it!!!!!! I honestly feel that Departure should have been a stand alone episode, because it hardly relates to everything else we've been given so far.

Just for the record, Tess can mindwarp aliens, because not only did she mindwarp Isabelle, she mindwarped Nicholas in WO (which in hindsight makes him tapping on the mirror during her mindwarp very interesting).

Someone here mentioned (i forget who) Courtney needing the Granolith to heal herself -- there were so many references to the Granolith made prior to this episode -- and references to the importance of it. How cool would it be if Liz turned out to actually *BE* the Granolith? That the Granolith was actually a very mystical, powerful thing and the *essence* of it somehow lives inside of her.

On another board, it was stated by someone in the know that JK decided to get rid of the Granolith to restore the 'balance' to the show. So, I really do think it was a question of him changing his mind. I don't think he'll address the loose threads that his decision creates, and I honestly think the Granolith is no longer. But I could be wrong.

In any case, maybe I'll have that margarita now because thinking about all of this is really driving me nuts.

{~}:}

I wish I had time to respond to some of the great questions posted - but I don't now - BUT I do have a question to pose myself:

WHY - if Kivar wanted Max to impregnate Tess, etc. - would he okay Nicko to have Lonnie "kill" Max in MITC? Again - given the time period, and the fact that the Dupes had already started the division that ultimately led to Max sleeping with Tess - would they chose to knock him off at this time? Okay - off to a meeting!

Later all !
Zero
I Shall Believe!

Mel, ITA. I keep seeing people blame Max for being an a$$ and it annoys me b/c it's so obvious that he is a victim here. In fact, he's more of a victim than any of the others. The minor meltdown in BIY was WAY overdue, and I too think it was just a precursor. In fact, if Max were to slip into an alien coma, that would be a really intriguing way for Liz to develop her powers, by bringing him out of it. Now that you've mentioned it, this is something I would love to see! In Blood Brothers, when Max was in the hospital, everyone banded together and worked as a group to solve the problem (unfortunately Alex won't be part of this new solution ). If the stress of everything that's been happening combined with the weird effects on Max's brain sent him into a coma, I have little doubt that they would all work together. Even Kyle (and you know, I would really have liked it if they'd left it at the original spoiler, that Max found out Liz was still a virgin b/c Kyle yelled at him and decked him for impregnating Tess).

Somewhat OT: for those of us who remained mostly unspoiled and don't know anything about the original spoilers, may I suggest reading Silent Lucidity by Kath7. It's on the Repost Board at Jenn007's board. If anyone wants the specific addy please PM me It follows those spoilers very closely, and it's an alternating Max/Liz POV. It's really interesting.
~Tas

WHY - if Kivar wanted Max to impregnate Tess, etc. - would he okay Nicko to have Lonnie "kill" Max in MITC? Again - given the time period, and the fact that the Dupes had already started the division that ultimately led to Max sleeping with Tess - would they chose to knock him off at this time? Okay - off to a meeting!

Here's a thought - maybe Khivar didn't OK "the dupes" to kill Max in MITC. Maybe that was something "the dupes" took upon themselves and maybe T wasn't actually in on it, which means her reaction to "the grab" was genuine? I dunno - then again, I'm sure T was eventually in on what "the dupes" were thinking.. ya know.. the abandoned warehouse idea.

Anyone else??

justsmile

[/B]

I love that spec, but do you really think TPTB are that clever?

Here is a thought.............

If there is another protector out there that would have known that T*** was a trador then how come that person(alien) did not try to stop them from leaving? UNLESS Liz is the key like this thread believes and it was actually up to her to save them.

Just a though

Evid

But it is clear to me that Liz does not love Sean...not like Max and I think he can't take Max's place...but at the same time, she will make the mistake of thinking that her heart can heal with Sean and that maybe she is better off without Max...

TPTB will bore us with another triangle...hoepfully not.

Someone asked a Q on Cherishing, and I thought my answer was worth posting here (though I still don't want the baby to be real! stomps foot ):

quote:posted by sandman:
What am I missing here! Why would Khivar want Max's baby? Wouldn't that make the baby the new king? I mean he would inherit the throne wouldn't he?

If Max was dead, then Max Jr. would indeed be king. Since he's just a baby, that would mean that the actual ruling would be done by a Regent, often the Queen. If Tess is working with Khivar, this solution would put Khivar in a position of legitimite, tradition-backed power as the Queen's chief counsellor. That should stop the Zan supporters in their rebellion, b/c Zan's son is technically on the throne and officially, anyway, Khivar will have backed down.

By the same token, if Max put his own people in as Regent and Counsellors (who they might be I have no idea, other than his Antarian mother!), this could represent a way for M/M/I to stay on Earth permanently after having fulfilled their obligations to free their planet. It really opens up a whole realm of possibilities.
~Tas

Anyway, some thoughts - perhaps the unabridged version of the DBook makes mention of Liz, or at least of the changed human (as spec. about - some sort of prophesy to tie in with Ava's reaction to Liz's healing?) or of human importance to the aliens? I agree that T*** must have changed the book; I guesss it is just a matter of how. When we saw Alex making that speech, I too was reminded of the mom-o-gram. Then someone (Tas I think) mentioned that the DBook began differently by making mention of each of the R4 - perhaps the original version didn't mention Ava (i.e. T***) or mentioned something specific so as to leave little doubt that T*** wasn't really a part of the big picture. Also, I did notice the V-formation at the end. My mind is better trained now to look for such things

About the S/L/M thing – I'm hoping it won’t go there, but just as we knew that there couldn’t be a M&L without the resolution of the T*** aspect, I don’t think there can be a M&L finally and permanently without the exploration of a Sean thing. Does that make sense? Liz just had her heart stomped on when Max told her about T***. She may forgive him, but that is not something so easily forgotten – especially since his newly stated mission is to find his son! We all know that Liz is approaching sainthood by now with all the crap she has put up with from the podsters, but would you patiently "stand by your man" while he searches for his illegitimate son, a child allegedly conceived with your worst enemy? That presents a situation that would be very tough to handle, even for a saint. Let him come to her when he has his head on straight once and for all. As much of a dreamer as I am, I was sort of annoyed that all of a sudden he "realized" that he always loved Liz and T*** was just a poopy side thing. Man up, Max!!

Holy rant! Sorry about that - see what being away from the boards does to me?? Just wild thoughts that have been rambling about my brain. There are more, but I am without paper and pen right now. If I don't write things down, they are gone! I can't wait to rewatch the ep and keep reading all the great posts!

OK, here goes....

It was Nicholas who implanted memories in Tess's head of this 'supposed' deal (if it really was a deal, I wonder what Nasedo got in return?) that Nasedo made with Khivar 40 years ago when Rath and Lonnie took Tess to that empty warehouse in MITC. I think that they never intended to 'kill' Max after the summit, but rather the dropping of that platform almost on his head was meant to distract him, so that they could take Tess and place the memories in her head. Now, if you think about it, Tess could have been implanting the 'memories' of *Ava and Zans* past lives together into Max's head. As a result of these memories, Max's actions have been easy to manipulate - he *remembers* being in love with Ava/Tess. As a result it was easier for Tess to manipulate Max into having sex with her and into using the Granolith to go home, and to drive Max and Liz further apart. Perhaps, when Nicholas implanted these memories into Tess's head, her actions became easier to manipulate as well. Because she *thought* a deal had been made, she became their puppet. Now, something else has kind of struck me in thinking about this theory... The NM podsters were carefully hidden away in NM and given posession of the Granolith. Perhaps the Destiny book WAS REAL and also given to the NM podsters because they were the 'real deal' as opposed to the NY crew, who were the defects. Now that Tess has been mindwarped by Nicholas, she reveals to the NY podsters and Nicholas about the existence of the Destiny book -- which they had no idea about previously. Unlike our podsters, they realize that this book might contain important information that they need! Maybe they reaized the book contained the key to transporting the Granolith back to Khivar -- maybe the DESTINY book contained the whereabouts of the crystal needed to activate the Granolith, or at least the destiny book was the key to finding out how the queen had planned for the podsters to come back and save their people. By translating the book they would have 1)the knowledge of how to transport the Granolith back to Khivar and 2) The 'battle plans',so to speak, of the Queen. This information, you would think, would be highly useful to Khivar. Imagine knowing how your enemies plan on defeating you. Very handy, indeed.

If you follow the timeline, 11/23/2000 Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer, 12/9/2000 Alex’s Departure for Sweden (ITLITB). So, in theory, only a few weeks have passed since that event with Tess in MIITC and Alex leaving for Sweden. Additionally, on silverhandprint.com, in the Roswell Gazette, Alex had this to say about his HASTILY planned trip....

The Gazette: Maria Deluca said you didn't think you made it.

Alex: I was pretty sure I'd been rejected from the program. I didn't hear from them for weeks. Then the call came and they were like, "It's Sweden," and I had a week to pack my stuff and get on a plane to Stockholm. It's surreal.

(sidenote: if Alex's trip was one big mindwarp, kudos to Tess for remembering to put paperwork about it in Alex's file in the guidance office. )

The timeline definitely backs up this theory!!!! Because if Tess *wasn't* mindwarped into believing that Nasedo made a deal with Khivar...why wait until after MITC to have Alex decode the book, when they've had the book from the day she came onto the scene? Why not do it right after Nasedo dies? Why not do it before they found Max and the others? There has to be some correlation to the fact that Tess's evil plan goes into effect almost directly after that scene in MITC, where we were all suspicious that the dupes/Nicholas mindwarped Tess to begin with.

So to summarize:
- Lonnie and Rath distract Max in MITC while they snatch Tess and bring her to the warehouse where Nicholas implants the memories in her head of a deal Nasedo made with Khivar 40 years ago where Tess is to deliver Max's baby, along with the other 3 to Khivar via: The Granolith.
- Tess becomes a puppet for the enemies, because she believes these memories to be real.
- She reveals to Nicholas, Lonnie and Rath about the existence of the Destiny book.Figuring the Destiny book would provide them with an idea of what the Queen had planned for the royal 4 and the key to transporting the Granolith they decide to decode it.
- Tess suggest using Alex because Alex had already applied for this semester abroad thing, it made sense that they could easily explain his absence from Roswell and get him into the Las Cruces lab (to use the Quantum Computer) without any suspicion.
- Lonnie, Nicholas and Rath figure out that the Destiny book included directions on how to use the Granolith. The Granolith, IS a religious icon like previously described, but because of it's enormous power it can also be used, one time, as a way home. This is one of the reasons why it was sent to earth with the podsters...so that when the time came, they would have a way home. However, there is more to the Granolith then just a means of transport. (by the way, just for good measure, how do we know that the Granolith even took Tess back to Antar. Maybe, just maybe, it transported her somewhere else - another subset time dimension perhaps?)
- They devise a plan to get the Granolith back to Khivar -- that may or may not include the addition of a royal heir. I still have no idea whether the pregnancy is real, or a way to manipulate Max into going with Tess back home with the others. Knowing Max would do the right thing -- they were counting on him going with her and bringing Isabelle and Max.
- Tess seduces Max and gets pregnant (or makes it seem like she is pregnant) so that when the Destiny book translation is conveniently uncovered, she has a reason to get Max to use the Granolith to return home. All of that crap about how the baby couldn't survive on this planet was exactly what it seemed...a plan by Tess to get Max to use the Granolith and return home. Whether or not she's pregnant still remains to be seen.
- Now, the Granolith takes off with Tess, leaving the podsters to think she was evil (when she really wasn't) and Khivar will once again be in posession of the Granolith...and maybe the royal heir. However, his plan was foiled as Max, Michael and Isabelle remain on earth. Stay tuned for Season 3.....

In any case, this explanation of what happened leaves a lot less plotholes and loose threads in regards to Nasedo, Nicholas and the skins, the dupes, the Granolith and Tess.

Does anyone agree? Feedback, please.

{~}:}

Victoria

quote:Originally posted by Vihmakass:
Hi!
Some random thoughts.
When Amy began remembering, she is holding Sean's alien-T-shirt from OTM. When she puts the shirt aside, she stops speaking.
The T-shirt is the trigger.
...I think the mirror in Tess's room is the trigger to Kyle.
But what was the trigger to Alex--why is he tapping? Vihmakass, excellent observations as usual! And to 47born too, who also caught the T-shirt. I am betting that the shirt Amy is holding is the one Sean was wearing that night -- it wouldn't have to be, she was selling lots of duplicates of the shirt. Maybe she was doing his laundry and it had some blood on it which triggered the memory. Remember Isabel getting triggered by the blood on Grant's neck in Surprise?
On the Science Fiction of OTM Thread, PepperjackCandy gives a great explanation of the mirror "memory triggers" quote:Originally posted by PepperjackCandy:
...I also have a theory about the mirror. Perhaps when Tess made Kyle forget about Alex, she made him forget seeing Alex, but failed to take that big mirror into account. The mirror was pretty big, so perhaps from wherever Kyle was in the room, he could see Alex's reflection in that mirror. So the memory of Alex's reflection stayed in Kyle's subconscious, and eventually worked its way back to the surface...Vihmakass, I'll have to rewatch CYN to see what might trigger Alex's tapping.

I loved it when Liz said, "I don't care about the Damn Granolith!" and I bet that's exactly how JK felt about it by the time of Departure.

Somebody mentioned the connection of Sean's piercing and the Dupe's and Courtney's too. Why mention it if it's not significant when they only have 40 minutes of air time?

So, I am assuming Ava will come back. I could see Kyle being emotionally stirred by her physical resemblance to Tess--lots of different emotions. He would probably be suspicious of her.

About the end results of TEOTW and FM and Liz's plan: Liz & Max are more or less back together. There's a song playing when Liz goes into the Crashdown after they kiss--it talks about having enough love to be strong. They do. And Max's last lines about getting involved with Liz being one of his better moves probably indicates that he will guard against ego massagers in the future.

As a Liz Mythologist, I also loved it when he desperately said to Liz, "Well you must have some idea about who killed Alex!"
quote:Originally posted by QueenAmidala01:
Sorry, but in aussie land we are up to the end of the world I just wanted to know why was alex killed.QueenA, in case you don't already know: Alex came out of his mindwarp, so Tess tried to put him back in it so he wouldn't tell the others she had mw'ed him. But he fought back, and she threw him down to the floor where he died, evidently because his brain was weakened by her excessive warping (of his mind to get him to translate the Destiny book).

So to make it short - very short from what I originally wrote - I think that Tess and K'var are father and daughter.

K'var is related to the Royal family in some fashion. I can see him being a stepfather to Zan and Vilondra. He got a foothold by marrital right. Zan could have been too young to rule when King died and Queen remarried quickly to keep the peace. But he must keep his bloodline in power.

Tess and Zan could not produce a male heir. Queen is not longer fertile. K'var was forced to woo Vilondra to his bed.

Then - whammo - Z,V,R,A die:

Looks like the end of K'var's rule when he dies.

But then, hope appears. Queen had the Royals recreated on a far off planet. There's hope! Thus, the baby deal is sold to a deseperate SS. All looks good until Liz shows up and steals Max's heart. He isn't interest in is former love at all. New plan is needed. The Skins attempt to return Vilondra. No luck! The dupes are contacted to Max and return Tess and Lonnie home. But because of Liz, K'var is fouled up again.

Tess realizes that it is now up to her and she somehow gets this communicated to K'var. Niko and the dupes back off and Tess almost succeeds. Almost.

Thank God for Liz!

I believe it was probably the tai food that triggered Alex into remembering. That's when he gave the whole "the world is wrong, why is everything a lie?" speech which, now in hindsight and considereing what we now know about Tess's mindwarps, makes perfect sense. Alex was tapping earlier because he hadn't broken out of the mindwarp yet, like Kyle did at the begining of Departure and Amy did when Liz and Maria interrupted her.

RW

My brain is getting fried because I've been sitting here all day. I always try to get on this discussion but can never think of anything to type...its like I can't get it out of my head.

I do have a question though, what was up with the Thai food??

Cantbehrit

According to my theory (see above) Lonnie and Rath weren't trying to 'kill' Max, rather, they were trying to distract him so that Tess could be taken to the warehouse where Nicholas implanted the memory of the 'deal' between her, Nasedo and Khivar.

quote:Originally posted by Vihmakass:
Hi!
Some random thoughts.
When Amy began remembering, she is holding Sean's alien-T-shirt from OTM. When she puts the shirt aside, she stops speaking.
The T-shirt is the trigger.
...I think the mirror in Tess's room is the trigger to Kyle.
But what was the trigger to Alex--why is he tapping?

The Picture Of Leanna, of course! Maybe 'Leanna' is the trigger - hence Leanna is not Leanna is not Leanna. Or, it could have been the Thai Food...both were present in the last scene of Alex alive, so I guess it's a toss up. Or maybe it's a combination of both.

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:
About the end results of TEOTW and FM and Liz's plan: Liz & Max are more or less back together. There's a song playing when Liz goes into the Crashdown after they kiss--it talks about having enough love to be strong. They do. And Max's last lines about getting involved with Liz being one of his better moves probably indicates that he will guard against ego massagers in the future.

The song is "My Oh My" by David Grey off of his White Ladder album. Which, by the way, is an amazing album and I recommend it highly to everyone! In regards to Max's last little speach to Liz, I kind of took it as a Thank You for figuring it all out. That he was right to get her into his life, because when push comes to shove he can count on her. Regardless of everything she is there for him. She saved him once again.

OK, somebody please read my theory that I posted earlier on this thread and comment! I'm dying over here!

{~}:}

So stupid.

As a truck driver, I give you my professional opinion: this episode has holes in it, big enough to drive a truck through! I've a major rant percolating, but in the mean time:

I do see Liz turning to Sean, in her darkest hour. Hey, he's at least friendly & well behaved! And her natural caution puts the brakes on before it gets too far.

Yo, Maria? You THAT stoopid? You give It to a guy, he scrams. Din'cha Mom teach ya nuthin'?

Yo, Michael? You know you're leaving, but you gotta Do her before you go? Alex had the right idea. POW, right in the kisser... affhole.

Of course, Liz does save the day, but whose lame idea was this "deal"? When Mr. Harding was killed, didn't that kinda kill the deal, too? How safe is Tess with Kivar? Not very.

Gotta think Tess has been mindwarped, too. By that little rat Nikolas in MitC, to think that there is a deal, and that she can keep Alex under for two months (tlr Nikolas does that), and that she's better off with this unsecured deal than with the NM3. And what of Lonnie's "cards"?

So stupid.

Evid (and now Tasyfa!) thank you for not thinking I'm NUTS regarding my Sean is Zan theory. The first time I mentioned it, it went over like a lead balloon, although I think shapeshifter said "Hmmmmmm" Anyway, another thing that made me wonder happened around HOM. Remember when Tess and Max are "experiencing" him swimming backstroke in thick water (jello!)? Shortly afterward, Liz finds Sean in the bowling alley and he teaches her how to be "free". He slides down the lane, and at the end he does this movement with his arms as he turns around, and it looks exactly like he's doing the backstroke. It was oddly placed so close in time to the other backstroke scene. But I didn't mention it because I thought you'd laugh at me. (and you ARE, aren't you! )

Oh, and Evid, thank you for following up on the name/mindwarp theory. Frankly, I was so bewildered by Departure, I didn't notice her repeatedly saying Kyle and dear Alex's names. You are a seasoned RBI!

Does anyone know if the necklace Max gives Liz is the same one Isabel found in Atherton's place? Is a piece missing? I guess it will be significant... maybe.

Who was it who said Liz doesn't seem so sure of herself with Max in the end? I noticed that too. I guess it's pretty obvious that she doesn't say "Oh Max, I love you too."

Oh, and Tas, you noticed this awhile ago, but I think Emilie deRavine has a cancer sore on her lower lip . When the two kiss flashes are back to back, it's obvious Max kisses Liz on the lower lip and Tess on the upper. Is it scary to all of you that I notice such things? -HH

Yo, Michael? You know you're leaving, but you gotta Do her before you go? Alex had the right idea. POW, right in the kisser... affhole.

Reggie:

I agree that it was wrong for M/M to have sex. But I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to their youth and their intense relationship... Personally, I believe that their bed scene in ID said loads more about how much they do care about each other than what I saw in Departure.

As far as Liz turning to Sean; I think Liz needed to do something to take her mind off of Max. Anything else to focus on would be less painful.

As far a Tess/Max - we'll I keep telling myself it's okay, they were married, but it still makes me puke.

What I really liked in season one is the writers didn't resort to the bump and grind to develop relationships.

Also, she did look terrified in the graniloth. If she was so confident why didn't she just stare down at Max or something? She was looking around and genuinely was scared.

Oh well, I'm off to rewatch some Roswell episodes....I need to have a marathon & watch them all again...maybe I can find some finger tapping..

Cantbehrit

OK, I'm not sure you guys are understanding what I was trying to say. Nasedo *never* made a deal with Khivar. In my theory, this idea was planted in Tess's head by Nicholas and the dupes. The whole *deal* was a mindwarp created by Nicholas to get Tess to become his 'puppet'. Previous to MITC, everything was the way we knew it to be -- including Congresswoman Whitaker. I don't think CW was working with the dupes, I think that was Nicholas's domain. As far as I can tell, Ava was definitely not a part of this little plan. I think the plan of using Tess as a weapon against the podsters developed as an alternate option, just in case Max decided not to return the Granolith to Khivar. In my theory, this alternate plan went into effect right after Max said no to Khivar's offer. So much of season 2 was about people wanting the Granolith -- it can't be just because it was a throwaway rocket. If succesful this plan would have delivered the royal 4 and the Granolith back to Khivar. However, Max, Michael and Isabelle ruined it by staying on earth (thank you Liz).

Speaking of the Granolith, why are we assuming that the machine in the pod chamber is the Granolith? As far as I can tell in Surprise, Whitaker asked Isabelle where it is, and only after Isabelle threw the orb through the pods did she discover the machine. She assumed it was the Granolith, however, how do we know that's what it really was? In EOTW they refer to the Granolith's power and how it is used as a time machine -- and we all assumed (rightfully so) that the machine was the Granolith. However, what if the machine was just a tool, and the Granolith was really Liz? Remember, the machine didn't work in EOTW until Liz touched it. I never would have thought it was so, but think about it, having Liz be the Granolith could explain Ava's cryptic response to finding out Liz was changed. Remember, Nicholas, Lonnie, Rath...none of them know that Max healed Liz. We always thought Liz was the *key* to the Granolith, but could it be possible that it's more than that? We are assuming the Granolith is a *thing*, but what if it's something intangible? What if Nicholas mistakingly thought that the *machine* contained the Granolith? How do we know for a fact exactly *what* the Granolith is. Maybe that machine is typically used to house the granolith, but for protection the queen had it placed inside of Max but it was accidentally transferred to Liz because when he healed her their souls connected and they were both so open to each other. Sigh. Everyone else still thinks the Granolith is inside of that machine, but the machine was actually just a decoy. The podsters are still in posession of the Granolith, because they have Liz.

Edited to add this piece: If Liz is the Granolith, perhaps the other protector, who has yet to be revealed to us, was the one who *changed* the Destiny book because they were aware it was being decoded. This would explain why the Destiny book contained instructions on how to *use* the Granolith. Another decoy to prevent Khivar, Nicholas et al from finding out where the Granolith really is. This would also explain why Maxedo protected Liz from Pierce in MTTM. You have to assume that if the Granolith was sent to Earth with the podsters, one of the jobs of the protectors would be to protect the Granolith as well.

You know, I'm really reaching here, but the point is, anything is possible. I for one would love to see Liz as the Granolith (even if it *is* far fetched) because that would put her in danger, and Max would have to save her....This would also make Liz's importance to the alien mythology very important!

In any case, as you can see, I've been doing some thinking about this... and what I've concluded is that in Roswell, you should never ever take anything at face value.

{~}:}

Agent Meta, over and out.

Future max also stated that tess left town. we dont know when she left but presumably this was before she killed alex and everything went to plan.
but he also stated when the future was changed he didnt know what was gonna happen so the change of events meant that tess killed alex and left. maybe no matter what path they all take the end of the world will still happen........

Anyway, watching CYN post-Departure is Sooo different -- knowing Tess's role! Remember how upset she was over Alex's death? It didn't make sense. We thought maybe she was faking it to get in good with Max. Well, now it's obvious that she just genuinely feels bad about it. She is not totally evil, even if she is the villain of the peace, because she does seem remorseful. It really is too bad she couldn't have gone for Kyle. It seemed in TEOTW that she and Kyle were about to cement, but I guess in the original "future" they didn't?

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
...What I really liked in season one is the writers didn't resort to the bump and grind to develop relationships.[/B]Qfanny? You aren't mind warped are you? Maybe you need Max to put his hands on your head and heal your memories? Like of Heat Wave and Sexual Healing eps?

But seriously, about the Michael/Maria cementing: I really thought it was
1) wrong for him to do it with her before he told her he was leaving in an hour...I mean, JK, do you realize how the final cut looked? Maybe JK was just really frustrated that the WB wouldn't give him an extra hour to tell the story, and this is how he expressed his frustration?
and:
2)It was Soo uncharacteristic (to use Liz's usage of that word) for Maria to just accept that
and:
3)Oooo, now that he stayed on earth, he's going to have to deal with Amy!

BTW, do we think Valenti gave the Evans the tape? Are they going to say Tess died in the jeep? And will Max be held responsible? Or will Ava come back and pretend to be Tess? Or will Max & Isabel just go underground anyway?

Meta I already posted that I love your theory!
~Tas

We know that Nasedo made a deal with Kivar to deliver Max's heir and Max, Iz, and Michael. A plan that t*** willingly and unloyaly (is that a word? ) went along with. Now, let's go back to the original timeline where Max and Liz cemented and t*** left. She saw that something happened between Max and Liz that made it obvious nothing nor no one would ever be able to come between. She knew she had a mission to accomplish and knew that by the look of things, she would not succeed. So she left. Kivar of course, is still waiting for deal that was made to be delivered to him. Let's pretend that this deal had a time limit. What was the time limit? I don't know, I haven't had a chance to really think about it, but it would make sense no? If there was a time limit and the time ran out and nothing came, then perhaps Kivar got really angry and felt that Nasedo and t*** mad a fool out of him. Not knowing what t*** was up to or if she was still with the podsquad he sends out more 'troops' to destroy not just Max, Iz, and Michael, but also t***, who would have been spared had she kept her end of the bargain. Of course by then t*** is gone and the remaining podsquad thinks that the reason they couldn't win was because t*** was needed, blah, blah... So then FM goes back in time and we all know what followed and another timeline was created. I actually think that t*** was not working alone, not sure who it was, but if there was/is others helping her, then maybe they were informants of Kivar who kept him up-to-date and told him that yes, a baby was conceived and so on.
NOW, I still don't think that neither the tex nor the baby are real. Maybe I'm an eternal optimist or just in denial, but I will need to see it to believe it. I also don't think that JK will take the show in this direction. What's more fun that looking for a maybe-alien-baby, son of the enemy I do think that it MIGHT start out that way, but something will happen (MW revealed?) will take the scooby gang in another direction. The real purpose will be discovered and followed. Getting off topic, what I was saying about the baby not being real. It would make no sense that t*** be doing the MW making Max think the baby is real cuz she would know the truth and by going home without the baby would surely mean her death. SO, has anyone considered the possibility that maybe it's someone GOOD that's behind this illusion of the baby? This is really out there, I know it but let's consider it. Maybe the real protector knew about the deal all along and for some reason was unable to get to them and tell them about it. And somehow, to protect Max made him and t*** think they slep together and are now gonna have a baby What would be the point of that. Well, that way, should someone figure things out or whatever (did I mention I'm real tired? ) and t***'s cover was blown she would still think she was preggers and leave without a fuss.
I also think that "destiny" no longer has any meaning. That whole thing about Max having to be with t*** came from Nasedo who is a LIER and BETRAYER Nothing that came from his mouth is relevant anymore, just like t***. Here's another idea Remember how Nasedo always said that humans weren't important and how LIZ especially shouldn't be around the royal four? Well, now we know that whenever he said something about "destiny" it was to serve his own selfish purposes, so maybe all he said was meant to be the opposite. Maybe he knew how important the humans were in the grand scheme of things, but letting the truth come out would have foiled his plans. Anyone?

Roxy

[/B]

I like this idea, but then I am tired too.

[/B]

I can't find your post!!! I am so desperate for feedback from you guys. I was so excited when I discovered that Alex left a few weeks after MITC, and that he only found out a week before Sweden that he got into the program (according to silverhandprint.com) It was like a huge lightbulb went on in my head and this theory made sense in a way that didn't leave a million (more than there were already) loose threads and plot holes.

I would love to hear everyone's feedback!!! What do you think????

{~}:}

Getting on here is really hard these days. hope they get things fixed up soon. So much for that..

Metaphysicalgrl - I like your theory, it makes a lot of sense. But I do have one question - Lonnie, Rath and Nik all wanted the Granolith to go home and they wanted it badly. If they in fact MW Tess to get to Max and the others, why would they let her take them and go home without them? Or was what we saw as a shakey exit really a ship headed to another location on Earth to pick up the others?

I wonder if the misty image we see in the chamber is the image of FMax - long hair? Anyone?

I think if we were all to watch the original episodes with Tess/Nacedo from S1, knowing now exactly what their goal was (hand over the three to Kivar and behr the heir), we would see that she was EVIL from the word go. As time passed, and with the help of the NUTURING from the Valenti's as well as the pod-squad's acceptance, we have seen a different side to Tess. She grew!! She became more sympathetic and possibly may even had feelings for Max. We have to remember that Nacado probably told her time and time again not to "feel" - emotions get in the way. So when Lonnie/Rath/Nicko deviced a plan to help her get back home, she agreed - I could even go to say that she reluctantly agreed. Lonnie's "card" could be Tess!! Maybe she knew about the deal that Nacedo had with Kivar and decided to help Tess fulfill her plan.

In summary: Tess had an agenda - she would stop at nothing to have it jeopordized - even to kill Alex and make it look like a suicide.

*********
I hope you all don't mind, I have a theory in my head and would like to get it out.

Nacedo made a deal 40 years ago. . . . late 60's early 70's. Wasn't Sheila Hubble murdered at this time?? I'm thinking he may have had two agendas going. . . . maybe a "back up" plan of sorts. Let's say he took the baby girl (Liz) from the morg and mixed the bride's essence (the leaky pod) with this human body. . . . knowing that SH looked completely opposite what Tess looks like. A great cover!!!!

Now Tess was hatched later than the rest, if we were to assume Tess' info about the birth is correct?? Was it b/c of all the experimenting that Nacedo conducted on the leaky pod?? I actually don't believe a word Tess has said regarding the birth (even Isabel felt it was off in MTTM; as well as Max's recollection of the events) - but I think she just wanted to be included in the pod-squad - b/c she truly is the bride. BUT - part of the bride's essence is in Liz, also. I'm a 100% Dreamer, but I have to admit, Max seemed drawn to Tess the first time they met. He couldn't take his eyes off of her --- **just like his reaction the first time with Liz**. He really couldn't help but be drawn to her and accepted her info pretty quickly - knowing full well that his "birth" experience was completely different!! Was it all MW'ing?? Or was there that attraction that accepted her in so quickly -- just like his attraction for Liz??

Getting back to Nacedo: He protected Liz in the House of Mirrors!! Why?? Perfect opportunity to get rid of her and have Max free and easy to "mate" with Tess, BUT instead, he took her to a safe place. His "back up" plan!! (He seemed to enjoy his "hostage" -- having a little fun with the King's "bride"!!) Sorry, I had to add that in!!

Maybe the skins discovered that he wasn't allways upfront - inconsistancies - and they murdered him. I'm not sure, but I still think his "death" had tremendously helped put Tess into the group rather conveniently.

****
So then this brings us to METAPHYSICALGRL's theory. The Lonnie/Rath/Nicko side of things!!

I know pretty simplictic!! I'm looking for constructive criticism!! Any holes??

I think if we were all to watch the original episodes with Tess/Nacedo from S1, knowing now exactly what their goal was (hand over the three to Kivar and behr the heir), we would see that she was EVIL from the word go. As time passed, and with the help of the NUTURING from the Valenti's as well as the pod-squad's acceptance, we have seen a different side to Tess. She grew!! She became more sympathetic and possibly may even had feelings for Max. We have to remember that Nacado probably told her time and time again not to "feel" - emotions get in the way. So when Lonnie/Rath/Nicko deviced a plan to help her get back home, she agreed - I could even go to say that she reluctantly agreed. Lonnie's "card" could be Tess!! Maybe she knew about the deal that Nacedo had with Kivar and decided to help Tess fulfill her plan.

In summary: Tess had an agenda - she would stop at nothing to have it jeopordized - even to kill Alex and make it look like a suicide.

*********
I hope you all don't mind, I have a theory in my head and would like to get it out.

Nacedo made a deal 40 years ago. . . . late 60's early 70's. Wasn't Sheila Hubble murdered at this time?? I'm thinking he may have had two agendas going. . . . maybe a "back up" plan of sorts. Let's say he took the baby girl (Liz) from the morg and mixed the bride's essence (the leaky pod) with this human body. . . . knowing that SH looked completely opposite what Tess looks like. A great cover!!!!

Now Tess was hatched later than the rest, if we were to assume Tess' info about the birth is correct?? Was it b/c of all the experimenting that Nacedo conducted on the leaky pod?? I actually don't believe a word Tess has said regarding the birth (even Isabel felt it was off in MTTM; as well as Max's recollection of the events) - but I think she just wanted to be included in the pod-squad - b/c she truly is the bride. BUT - part of the bride's essence is in Liz, also. I'm a 100% Dreamer, but I have to admit, Max seemed drawn to Tess the first time they met. He couldn't take his eyes off of her --- **just like his reaction the first time with Liz**. He really couldn't help but be drawn to her and accepted her info pretty quickly - knowing full well that his "birth" experience was completely different!! Was it all MW'ing?? Or was there that attraction that accepted her in so quickly -- just like his attraction for Liz??

Getting back to Nacedo: He protected Liz in the House of Mirrors!! Why?? Perfect opportunity to get rid of her and have Max free and easy to "mate" with Tess, BUT instead, he took her to a safe place. His "back up" plan!! (He seemed to enjoy his "hostage" -- having a little fun with the King's "bride"!!) Sorry, I had to add that in!!

Maybe the skins discovered that he wasn't allways upfront - inconsistancies - and they murdered him. I'm not sure, but I still think his "death" had tremendously helped put Tess into the group rather conveniently.

****
So then this brings us to METAPHYSICALGRL's theory. The Lonnie/Rath/Nicko side of things!!

I know pretty simplictic!! I'm looking for constructive criticism!! Any holes??

Well, my whole theory was based on the fact that Alex left for Sweden a couple of weeks after MITC. The fact that he found out about the trip and left within the week is a big clue as far as I'm concerned. Why that scene with Tess sitting in the middle of the Warehouse?

I honestly don't think Nasedo had a deal with Khivar. However, everything else you said about Tess I can agree with -- she did have an agenda which was to get together with Max. Because she was mindwarped into helping Nicholas, it doesn't change the past. I've said it before on this thread, I don't think Tess is All Evil or All Good. I think she is a multi-dimensional character that is struggling between what she was brought up knowing, and what she is coming to know on her own through her own experiences.

Tess didn't mean to kill Alex, and she showed remorse. However, I highly doubt that Tess was able to carry out this extensive mindwarp for an extended period of time on her own. She had help...

Regardless of anything, everything we have felt and/or known about Tess previous to MITC remains true with my theory. It's only after MITC that her behavior and actions are questioned.

{~}:}

p.s. I'm having fun seeing how many arguments my theory actually stands up against! The true test of any good theory!

Getting on here is really hard these days. hope they get things fixed up soon. So much for that..

Metaphysicalgrl - I like your theory, it makes a lot of sense. But I do have one question - Lonnie, Rath and Nik all wanted the Granolith to go home and they wanted it badly. If they in fact MW Tess to get to Max and the others, why would they let her take them and go home without them? Or was what we saw as a shakey exit really a ship headed to another location on Earth to pick up the others?

Well, we don't know that Lonnie, Rath and Nicholas wanted the Granolith to go home with per se. We're assuming that everyone wanted the Granolith because it was a way to get home, but previous to Departure, there was no indication whatsoever that the Granolith was a transportation device.

Here's some dialogue from MITC to prove that point...

LONNIE: Yo, you ain't getting the granilith without us, so just remember that.

NICHOLAS: You're not getting home unless I get the granilith. Remember that.

(no mention that the Granolith will actually be used as a *transport* home, just that they're not getting home until Nicholas gets the Granolith)

TESS: Why don't they...come in person?

RATH: You see, little girl, space is what we call very, very big. You know, it's not easy to get places. People just don't zip around the galaxy like on Star Trek.

LONNIE: No one's coming back here again in person unless there's a good reason.

RATH: Like to bring us home.

TESS: We can go home?

RATH: Yeah, we can. If the man here cuts a deal at the summit.

MAX: What kind of a deal?

LONNIE: A deal to bring peace back to our world.

RATH: And in our world...blood on the streets, baby. That dude Kivar that took your throne...people hate his ass!

LONNIE: Our mother sent our pods to earth for safekeeping, hoping we'd come back one day.

RATH: And that day is now. The word is that Kivar's desperate, and he'll do anything to end the fighting.

LONNIE: Including let us come back home.

MAX: Home. I never thought...not this soon. What about Michael and Isabel?

TESS: And Ava.

LONNIE: They're expecting the royal four, not the royal seven.

MAX: I am not leaving Michael and Isabel behind.

LONNIE: Look, Max...Max, they...they seem so happy...in that cute little town. Chill, chill. It'll all be ok. You'll see. It'll all fall our way...unless they bring up the granilith again.

MAX: The granilith?

RATH: Yeah, yeah. It's this stupid religious thing.

LONNIE: The protector told us it's like the holy grail, some piece of junk people on our planet worship for some reason. You ever heard of it?

MAX: No.

(this dialogue seems to indicate that someone would come pick them up and take them home if Max cuts a deal at the summit. No mention of using the Granolith as a rocket ship..in fact, this is where we heard the Granolith was a 'stupid religious thing')

I don't think the plan was for Nicholas and Lonnie and Rath to use the Granolith as transportation to get *themselves* back home. I think the plan was to either a)just get the Granolith back to Khivar or b) use the Granolith to accomplish a, and also to deliver Max, Michael, Tess and Isabelle to Khivar also.

Yes????

{~}:}

I'm really working overtime tonight on this stuff!

Could Sheila Hubble's baby have been Tess's donor? Maybe Nasedo created an extra podling?

gnite!

P.S. Qfanny, maybe Kyle could use his special powers to help you remember HW and SH more clearly (if you don't want Max to). Seriously, I agree there's a line between cement and jello. ( goodness, I really am trying to be serious here )

But I did like M & M holding hands to get flashes -- I had always thought it was bad scifi to have kissing be the means of this kind of communication. Now, however, it just appears that some type of physical contact is necessary, and kissing is a special Max & Liz way.

Sorry about that!!

I took your theory and thought you were saying, in general, that Lonnie/Rath/Nicko came together to convince Tess to help with their scheme as well as hers!! (I neglected to read that they MW or implanted memories into Tess).

They all want to go home!! ICAM that Tess couldn't have pulled off this whole scenerio alone. The warehouse scene is prevalent!! The fact that Alex was "sent" to Sweden a week after MITC is a complete and obvious sign that Lonnie/Rath/maybe Nicko?? are involved some way.

I still feel that Nacedo made the "deal" with Kivar. The actions that Nacedo and Tess took with regards to the pod-squad when they first showed up indicates to me that was their intent -- Tess needs to mate with Max!! The lab scene, the jeep scene (MTTM), and so on.

Would your theory accept that bit of change?? I'm getting overloaded thinking about this - did I make sense to you??

Now we have an opening for Nik to return in S3 to complete the task of killing off the R4 for Khivar if the writers so choose. The other leaders all know that Zan is alive and on Earth so until they are dead, the heir to the throne will be of no use to Khivar. (presuming that Khivar will use the child as he planned to use Max - as puppet King)

Wow that also opens up a lot of other opportunities to see Liz explore her powers.

I mentioned this earlier, but want to ask again. What does anyone think about the misty image in the chamber - do you think it might have been a residual image of FMax?

I LOVE you! That's exactly what I've been thinking. Nasedo never made any deal; no one's behaviour would make sense then. But if Tess either made a deal or was MWd into thinking that such a deal existed at the end of MITC, it would totally make sense.

Additionally, if the ultimate goal was to kill M/M/I (I'm not sure that the attempt was a fake--I think it was dual purpose) and get the granolith, then it would make MORE sense for the baby to be fake. Tess could play with Max's mind, knowing that if he believed she was carrying his sick child he would go with her, and that the others would follow. That way, she would have the best of both worlds. Max et al thinking she's sick and the baby's sick, when really she's at full physical power. I think that's why she looked so scared in the granolith b/c she hadn't accomplished her plan of bringing M/M/I. I don't think she is pregnant.

I know there was more, but that's all I can recall. Oh--Tess told Max that it was Nasedo's plan either b/c she had been MWd into believing that (if she's a pawn) or b/c finding out she made the deal might have pissed him off enough to kill her regardless of the baby card.
~Tas

[/B]
ITA to all you say except the M/M part,it sounds a little bit sexist (hope it's not a bad word). The finale is soooo soap-opera, I've seen these things hundreds of times and the fact that everything has an alien "paint" doesn't make it any better.
And I do believe it's not WB fault, asking for more sci-fi doesn't mean a soap-opera finale. And what's coming next won't be any better. Just my opinion.
Elena

When Shapeshifter Hank aka Tic Tac comes in to talk to Sherrif Valenti he talks about how he is leaving town. He says he got an offer at a plant in .... get this ..... LAS CRUCES . Could there a connection?

Anyway I thought that was cool.

Star light Star bright
first star I see tonight
I wish I may
I wish I might
see continuity
in what they write!! (Sorry it's late )

Edited to add my 2 cents about M/M "interplanetary relations"
1. Where can they go from here? Sex for TV couples usually spells disaster.
2. Considering Amy's history I was really hoping that Maria would be very concerned about not following in her mother's footsteps.

If I had total brain capacity and some rest I would post more - but ....

Oh OT - and Steph - I finally paid my money so I'm definitely going to LA for the party! I would love to meet some Mythologists and Dreamers in person! How fun!

Night All!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

Speaking of the Granolith, why are we assuming that the machine in the pod chamber is the Granolith? As far as I can tell in Surprise, Whitaker asked Isabelle where it is, and only after Isabelle threw the orb through the pods did she discover the machine. She assumed it was the Granolith, however, how do we know that's what it really was? In EOTW they refer to the Granolith's power and how it is used as a time machine -- and we all assumed (rightfully so) that the machine was the Granolith. However, what if the machine was just a tool, and the Granolith was really Liz?

OK I had to make my first post since I was eaten.

This is a theory that has been running through my head for a while. Makes you think about the pendant and its significance. Maybe the Granolith isn't really a thing. We do know that things are not always as they seem.

You are all awesome... my brain hurts now

Welcome back, aldebaran—you on email yet?

I had a Ros-Nightmare last night! It’s all because I was talking with my roommate about how upset so many people are about Max’s character! The dream was all the Roswell characters had to kill 2 or 3 people and then Max was killed as well. I saw what happened and thought “How stupid could they be to kill the main character?” Of course, unless they do some serious fixin’, they did, in effect!

I just thought of something—CW said that she killed Nasedo to protect Isabel from him. What does that mean in the whole scheme of things?

Quote by MissL Parker
Starlight Star bright
first star I see tonight
I wish I may
I wish I might
see continuity
in what they write!!

Nikolas sees the Granolith when he mind rapes Max, therefore that was the Granolith. But, I was thinking the writer’s could make it so that the Granolith never leaves! Haven’t figured out how they could do this, what do you all think?

Off to work now!

Why did Max never say anything to Liz about her not going to Sweden when he was so mad and hurt that she was going? He ended up sleeping with T***! The next time they are seen together is when Liz is asking T*** about her powers and Max comes in with an attitude. But he never seems to mention that liz did not go to Sweden. He basically makes the comment that "what now Tess killed Alex?"

Is this a mindwarp or what? Why does he never question her?

Just curious if anyone has any ideas on this!!!

shapeshifter - I really believe that Vilandra intentionally betrayed Zan and her race. I just keep thinking about how Lonnie stated in MITC how she remembered Antar, how she remembered Khivar, how she remembered what it was like to be Vilandra and how she wanted that life back. Not to mention the fact that if Lonnie remembered who she was as Vilandra, this would explain why she had no problems with betraying Zan again in this life.

Meta, I think your theory is very interesting and certainly plausible. I have a slightly different twist. I think Nacedo did make the deal and trained Tess all her life to accomplish this mission. But he failed to understand the heart of a part-human young woman and what she would really desire, the love of the man she thinks is her husband. I think Nacedo misinterpreted the DB to mean the hybrids would mate. So, he makes a deal with Kivar to get Tess to mate with Max, get pregnant and deliver the heir and the NM3 to Kivar, in exchange for his safe passage home. (With the exception of the NM3 it appears all the other aliens want off this "retched planet".) Later Kivar discovers that the hybrids CAN'T mate. He is PO'ed at Nacedo and killed him for being a double crosser.

Tess doesn't know this wrinkle in the plan so she is still operating under the assumption that if the opportunity arises (pardon the pun) she can still carry out her end of the deal to get home. But in actually she is part-human and all she really wants is for Max to love her. So, she is willing to forego the deal if it means she can have Max. But in MITC when the dupes take her she is convinced by the dupes and Nicholas that Max will never love her. They provide her with the evidence that Max's feeling haven't changed even after he sees Liz with Kyle in the EOTW. For example, Max's primary concern continues to be Liz (WO and Harvest, trying to get the skins to let Liz go, his utter relief when he see Liz alive), he still believes Liz even though he was supposedly betrayed by her (MITC, the granolith issue)and that he still keeps that picture with "Love, Liz" on the back in his sock drawer. So Tess reluctantly agrees to go along with the dupes and Nicholas to follow through with the original plan, but they tell her she will have to accomplish the goal with a mindwarp because she'll never actually get Max to sleep with her. Meanwhile they will be mindwarping Alex to get the DB translation so that the final product will be that Kivar get the granolith and the NM3, Tess gets to be the puppet Queen with Kivar as her Regent.

In Departure Tess give Max one last change to prove he cares for her but when they kiss she see the truth. That Max still loves Liz. And that's the last straw, she is willing to let him die because he didn't return her love. Then in season 3 I think that Max will find out the truth about no baby when he has his first run in with Nicholas and the dupes. They will come to finish the other half of the deal that Tess couldn't, killing the NM3. They tell him what an idiot he is for believing the altered DB translation that they handed over. And that he was so weak for handing the granolith, a very powerful weapon that can be used against them, over to Kivar with the woman who so easily manipulated him into believing that he was a father. Then Nicholas could implant the image of Tess on her deathbed asking for Max's forgiveness for setting him up, apologizing by saying that if she had just choosen to save Max at last she could have spent her life in his company even if he didn't love her.

Sorry kinda long winded. But this makes Tess more multidimensional in terms of how evil she was. Yes, she tried to carry out Nacedo's plan, she cooperated with the dupes and Nicholas, and she killed Alex to prevent him from telling Max about the DB translation. But only after she was convinced that the only real desire she had, to be loved by Max, would never come true. This scenerio still makes her evil, but puts a slightly different perspective on it than if she just was following Nacedo's plan, and provides for the help of others in the plan since she would have had a great difficultly doing everything on her own. It also accounts for the proximity in timing between MITC and Alex finding out about Sweden. It also accounts for how Max could so easily misread Tess emotions and feelings, because underneath it all she did love him. He just didn't love her.

Well what do you think? Plausible or totally off the mark. I'd love to hear some feedback.

I still want to know how Leanna fits into the equation. She may be human, but I don't think she was uninvolved. Her timing and everything was a little too neat. I keep running into the idea of her being Serena and then I can't think of anything else
~Tas

Well, anything can be possible at this point, but I really don't think Nasedo made a deal with Khivar. I ABSOLUTELY think this is a MW from Nicholas -- however, I definitely agree that when Nasedo first came on the scene with Tess, that the intention was to *reunite* the royal 4, and to have them reunite in the way that they thought was correct. M/I T/M. Remember, not only did Tess try to get with Max, M/I started having visions and whatnot as well -- those could have also been a mindwarp from Tess. The way I see Nasedo, or the podsters protectors, is that they are 'soldiers' who were given a mission to carry out. I don't think Nasedo cared so much about returning home, I think he was on earth to carry out the mission given to him by the queen. Nasedo knew about the pod chamber - if he wanted to go home so bad, he had plenty of time to figure out how to use the Granolith. Don't forget -- he remembered life on Antar, I'm sure reading the Destiny book was no problem for him. I'm just not buying it....

quote:Tess doesn't know this wrinkle in the plan so she is still operating under the assumption that if the opportunity arises (pardon the pun) she can still carry out her end of the deal to get home. But in actually she is part-human and all she really wants is for Max to love her

Well, here's what I've been thinking. I think Tess definitely wanted to 'get' with Max and fulfill her Destiny from the time she appeared in Roswell. Again, this is what Nasedo brought her up to believe -- and as a part-human girl ( ) if you were brought up to think you were a queen, you would want to see it come true! But in all seriousness, I keep thinking about Lonnie. Now Lonnie is smart and conniving. Remember, she knows Max either has a girlfriend, or is in love with someone else (remember the picture of Liz she found in his drawer?). Then she sees Tess with Max in MITC. It probably didn't take her long to figure out what was going on in New Mexico. So, maybe this information was Lonnie's *cards*? She knew what kind of memory to implant in Tess's head, that would play with the emotions that Tess was already feeling. Lonnie knew that Tess wanted to be with Max, but someone was standing in her way. Why not use one of the other podsters as their 'puppet'? Because Tess already had this within her -- she wanted to be Max, so it would be easier to manipulate her with a mindwarp.

In any case, none of us are going to know what the real deal is until August!! I'm really digging my theory, though, because it actually makes sense.

I really think JK *is* going to find a way to make this make sense -- I mean, he has to be aware of what a mess season 2 was and I'm sure he's going to try and make sense out of it somewhat in Season 3. My theory makes sense (at least to me!) in the overall canon of Roswell.

I agree that Tess/Nasedo were suspicious when they first came on the scene, and I believe the writer's made them look suspicious because of the Destiny thing. I really don't believe that there was any kind of deal with Khivar at that point.

Remember, that Alex leaving for Sweden happened SWIFTLY after MITC. Ask yourselves why? Why put that scene in the warehouse with Tess? Why on silverhandprint.com did they make it a point to say Alex didn't think he got into the program but found out he did and had to leave within the week? The trip to Sweden as we know never really happened, hence Alex's surreal comment, but why include the information about how quickly it happened for him? Why tell us this? It's a CLUE!

Anyhow, in regards to Nicholas mindwarping Max and seeing the 'machine' -- I don't think this proves that it is the Granolith. Like I said before, if the Granolith is more of an 'intangible' thing, that machine could be the casing or shell that holds the Granolith. Or the thing that they think 'houses' the Granolith. Who knows.

But I definitely think the Granolith is more than a one time rocket, and I definitely believe Tess was mindwarped into believing there was some kind of deal with Khivar.

If I don't believe this, I would loose my mind thinking about all the glaring CHADS this storyline created, and I want to enjoy my summer and not be tortured!!

God, this show is frustrating!!!!!

{~}:}

WHat's your take on why Grant dupe was following them and how does the baby fit into all this?

p.s. I am from the group of the Max new round table to tell Max what to do and we are on a quest to return all lost dreamers back to their dreamer home!! Tess will NOT WIN! If anyone sees our main gal Melodious aka gurudreamer masterartist tell her she is not allowed to leave us . Thank.u

------
Max to Tess: "BUt...but what about all those diappers we bought"~Terra

quote:Originally posted by Tasyfa:
I still want to know how Leanna fits into the equation. She may be human, but I don't think she was uninvolved. Her timing and everything was a little too neat. I keep running into the idea of her being Serena and then I can't think of anything else

Tassy, I'm not sure if I'm giving too much credence in "Leanna" being involved. I was wondering if she was simply a pretty face that Alex (the real Alex, out of the mindwarp) fancied, hence "Leanna's" image was merely chosen as a front for the mindwarping and deception underneath. Granted, she could have more involvement (which could be very intriguing, because she *was* bleeding in DEP... the blood also turned out to be human apparently). I was wondering for a brief moment if Leanna could have been Isabel's "Laurie Dupree".... a direct descendent from Isabel's human DNA donor? Alex seemed to like her and she's wound up into this situation.... although I also suppose that would be INSANELY convenient as well. Who knows in this storyline! Although I'm amused "Leanna" was determined "human" because she was *bleeding*. Blood = DNA = discovery of DNA abnormality = descended from one of the DNA donors?

Edited to add: This is rather simplistic, but I was also wondering if Leanna could have been "Lonnie". Leanna / Lonnie... the names are rather similar, no? Leanna is not Leanna... because Leanna is Lonnie whom Alex was mindwarped to believe was "Leanna". This might explain Alex's behavior towards Isabel when he returns from "Sweden" -- he's standoffish at first (perhaps on a subconscious "been there, done that" sort of attitude)... but then at another time. I believe it's Isabel who comes to Alex's window and he seems startled or scared. Startled or scared to see Isabel ... or (on a subconscious level once again) afraid it's Lonnie coming back to torment his mind some more?

I don't even know why I was thinking about this waking up this morning, it's probably inconsequential. However, since Nasedo (possibly) made this deal 40 years ago (barring Meta's very good theory ) with the Skins. Do you wonder if Nasedo might have possibly given the Skins access to other things besides the eventual "heir" and the Granilith? Maybe Nas gave them a few free samples of the Gandarium? I'd hate to think what Skins might have been able to accomplish if they had a little bit of those blue crystals (apparently the key in hybrid making). It probably would make an intriguing fanfic if someone went for it (Skins are given a bit of Gandarium as a sign of loyalty or something from Nas? Skins use the Gandarium to make their own hybrids? Skin/Human hybrids?).

roswelldiva: At the moment, I just can't Cherish (makes it hard especially when you're basically disgusted with half the couple. I'm NOT much of a Max fan at the moment, I'm sorry to say). This thread is about as close as I'm coming retaining any bit of Dreamer I have left in me.

Melodious

[/B]

To each his own, of course, but with Alwaysdreamin's theory, I have a couple of arguments...

1) If Nasedo was working with Nicholas the whole time -- he could've EASILY translated the Destiny book for them a LONG TIME ago. Just the idea of having Nasedo be on the other team nullifies the whole entire Alex decoding the Destiny book storyline. It just doesn't make sense.

quote:In Departure Tess give Max one last change to prove he cares for her but when they kiss she see the truth. That Max still loves Liz. And that's the last straw, she is willing to let him die because he didn't return her love.

2. Well, why would Tess have let Max activate the Granolith in the first place if she had hesitations about letting him die? Remember, they were under the impression that it was a one time only deal!

{~}:}

Remember how QFanny was so insistent that Liz is not an alien? That is going to be my new thing -- The Deal is just a mindwarp!! Repeat after me... The Deal Is Just A Mindwarp!!!

(and so far Qfanny has been right!!!)

I think I need to go checkout silverhandprint.com. I haven't been over there yet and it sounds like there are a lot of useful clues over there.

I agree with you about Max being mindraped by Nicholas and the image of the granolith. Nicholas so the machine because that what Max Believes is the granolith. I Max thought the granolith was a peanut butter sandwhich, then Nicholas would have seen a PBS. (Sorry for the bizarre comparison, I think I'm hungary!)

There are kinks in my ealier theory, but I still like element of it. But maybe it would be even better for all of us if Liz was the one who discovered Tess's deception about the tex and baby. First because she'll be inclined to believe it and forgive Max if she learns it on her own. Second because TPTB could do something cool with her powers to have her come to this realization. Like maybe she could astral project to Larek to ask for help finding out the real deal. And that might include the discovery that on Antar the woman with the pendant is considered the bride. Then Max will realize that Kivar is out for Liz and he'll have to protect her.

I keep having this fantasy that Max is compelled by the need to protect Liz, so every night he goes to her balcony to make sure she gets off to sleep safe and sound. He waits for her to fall asleep and then just watches her while she sleeps, because it's so peaceful to him. But one night Liz wakes up suddenly and is startled to find him there. He begs her to tell him why she needed him to think she slept with Kyle. So she tell him about FMax. The next night when Liz goes to go to bed Max is there with the Gomez CD for a private concert under the romantic starlight. This will be just the beginning of a very beautiful reunion, that at some point in the future will ultimately end up in the cementing we were all deprived of.

Anybody with me on the Max/Liz reunion scenerio? It could work.

Man, I hope they tie that in somehow! The fact that this necklace resurfaced, that is
~Tas

quote:

Well, my whole Granolith theory was just that. A theory. I actually brought it up just to make us all question the validity of the Granolith. How do we know what the *granolith* actually is. However, my other theory is that the deal is just a mindwarp, planted in tess's head by Nicholas when they grabbed Tess and brought her to the warehouse in MITC. It was after MITC that Alex left for Sweden (within a couple of weeks, and on silverhandprint.com it says that he didn't think he made it, found out he did and left within a week). If Tess had *always* been working with them, why send Alex just then? Also, if *Nasedo* had been working with them all along -- he remembered life on Antar. You would think he could've translated the book for them a long time ago. If Nasedo *really* had a deal with Khivar, that would make the whole Alex storyline pointless. My theory is that once they mindwarped Tess into believing there was a deal, she told Nicholas and the dupes about the Destiny book -- and they wanted it translated. Hence, Alex's speedy departure to Sweden, so soon after MITC. If this wasn't the case, why didn't they do it before? Why wait?

OK, not exactly one sentence, but there you have it!!!

And I plan on drinking many margaritas (and other beverages) this weekend!!! You do the same....

{~}:}

The gypsy in the beginning of EOTW was a strange bird, wasn't she? Could three prophesies be any more painful, or more completely WRONG? She told Maria her relationship with Michael would be short lived: enter Courtney. She told Alex his relationship with Is would always be platonic (This was in the end of October, according to Zero's helpful timeline) so, he went home and filled out paperwork for Sweden (He left December 12th.). And of course she told Liz that she had found the love of her life, hours before FM arrives to wreck havoc. Coincidence???

I'm assuming in FM's and Serena's time, all three of these relationships are very strong. We've seen nothing to indicate otherwise. But now they're losing the war and Michael and Is. have died. If Serena is knowledgeable about time travel AND works for Khivar, why not do what Dayneen said? Why not communicate to FM he needs to go back and destroy M/L so he'll be stronger with Tess. Then she, Serena, takes a human host, like Larek does. She becomes the gypsy and initiates separation between the humans and their hybrid partners on all three counts.

That gypsy did too much damage; it's as if she knew what was meant to be, and spoke the opposite. The relationships were destroyed, some more permanently than others.

Then they go to the summit in the end of November, and Metaphysical's theory unfolds.
Thoughts anyone? -HH

Man, I hope they tie that in somehow! The fact that this necklace resurfaced, that is
~Tas

Isn't the whole necklace having some importance theory a spoiler??? I don't remember, but I think I read that somewhere.

Why would the necklace be important? Just curious....

{~}:}

The problem I have with Leanna not being involved is that her e-mail account was used. Having had a university e-mail account, they are impossible to get without being a student, alumnus or staff member. Plus she was paying the rent on the abandoned warehouse where the computer was sitting. Even if Lonnie was impersonating her, would it really be a good idea to use her e-mail account? I know that things can be erased and all, but that would still leave the window open to possible discovery later on down the road. I don't know, for some reason I'm really resistant to the idea of Lonnie being Leanna. I just kind of have a feeling that Leanna is a human who knows more than she should!

Meta I'm repeating after you, "The Deal Is Just A Mindwarp!" It's the only thing that makes ANY kind of sense to me. No matter what Tess thought or how she got herself into the position where she went back alone (I'm still open to the various possibilities here), I do not believe for one second that Nasedo made a deal 40 years ago.
~Tas

If I'm wrong Melodious1, please correct me.

Why would the necklace be important? Just curious....

{~}:}

Yes, the original spoilers had something about the importance of the necklace; I think Liz was supposed to get flashes. But I'm not referring to that; since it was the season finale and not the series finale (yay!), a lot of stuff like that got scrapped and I consider it dead and gone at this point b/c JK can basically go anywhere now.

I was thinking more of the original significance of the necklace. It was the first object they found that was from their home, and it has the galaxy spiral on it. Which was not only the message Nasedo burned into the ground in ITW, but it was also the symbol over the door to the granolith chamber that counted down the hours and minutes to the Departure.

It was also the first time that Liz, by herself, did something to aid the podsters in their quest. And it has strong ties to Riverdog, a character that I KNOW we all want to see again! I know that the significance may be strictly emotional right now, but I would just like there to be something more. Maybe use the idea of Liz getting flashes. Maybe use the idea of the act of Max giving it to her being significant in that he was entrusting her once again with saving them. I don't know, I just know that I want it to MEAN something!!!

Oh, and whatever else happens in S3, dammit I want to see Max give Liz his class ring when they graduate!
~Tas

Why did Max never say anything to Liz about her not going to Sweden when he was so mad and hurt that she was going? He ended up sleeping with T***! The next time they are seen together is when Liz is asking T*** about her powers and Max comes in with an attitude. But he never seems to mention that liz did not go to Sweden. He basically makes the comment that "what now Tess killed Alex?"

Is this a mindwarp or what? Why does he never question her?

Just curious if anyone has any ideas on this!!!

This is an excellent question which I posed after this episode, and led me to believe that Max has under some kind of mind control/warp since he seem so weird in this scene AND he totally spaced the fact that Liz had supposedly left for Sweden the night before! SO there are plenty of clues that he was being toyed with, but given the failure of the writers to follow-through on the many clues we find and tie up loose ends like this, I don't know what to think. BUT this is why I cut Max SOME slack - though not a lot - on how he acted to Liz and Iz! I still want to see some major groveling and heart-to-heart talks before I will accept a meaningful relationship between Liz and Max. There is an excellent "letter" to Liz on the board - though I think it is a bit extreme - it is well written and thought out!

BTW - Miss L Parker I love your take on the classic "wish" - Starlight, Star Bright!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

1. Alien sex is THAT good and is worth the risk, even without protection (regardless of whether they used it or not and it wouldn't surprise me if they DIDN'T)

OR

2. Hybrids CANNOT get pregnant and the Dupes KNEW it. So they can sex each other up ALL THEY WANT with NO consequences. They don't get sick and they can't get pregnant. It's HUMAN sex that is the risky stuff?

Ava tells the ROS podsters that she and Zan could NOT get pregnant because they're (hybrids) physically incapable of procreating ... just as Lonnie and Rath could never get pregnant (despite they're mass quantities of sex). Now the ROS podsters might just explain this as the Dupes being the "deficient" set and possibly were NEVER intended to procreate, as opposed to the Roswell podsters who were the seeming prototypes (?). It could plant the seed of doubt (particularly in Max), however, of how much this "baby" is fact or fiction.

I believe there was a piece of dialogue cut from MAX IN THE CITY, where Ava is explaining to Liz that their "protector" made it VERY clear that they should NEVER bring anyone back (this is after Liz tells Ava how she found out about Max). So Zan was very careful not to heal (in turn, CONNECT) with any human. Their protector specifically warned them AGAINST it. Their protector, hence, forbidding them from making a connection with any human - hence eventually procreating with one - thwarting Nasedo's plan. Makes me wonder if there could have been a connection between Nasedo and the Dupes protector (were they the SAME GUY)? Of course, that dialogue WAS cut.

I was also wondering if the hybrids were seemingly forbidden NOT to make connections with "humans" because of the TYPE of connection it formed? Max/Tess' "connection" (if they have one at all), could be one thing.... but Max's connection to Liz - that's something else entirely. Max proclaimed he'd abandon his kingdom ONCE already for Liz (his line to L at the end of ASK NOT). Hybrids connecting to humans is FAR more tangible then hybrids "connecting" with hybrids? This hybrid/human connection on the surface... seemingly steers them from the path they're supposed to be on (go home, save Antar).... but then of course, Kivar has the hybrid guillotine all shined up and waiting for their heads!!

This seems to work on the human side as well. Since Liz has made this connection with Max (several times ), she can never go back? Liz said to FMax that "everyone else would be second best".... perhaps this was more literal than Liz fully realized? Liz could never be "satisfied" with any man that wasn't Max (not with Sean, not Kyle, not anyone).... EVERYONE would be second best to Max (who's not only her soulmate, but someone she's formed this irreversible chemical connection with). Although Max might have made some kind of "connection" with Tess (gag)... it's NOTHING compared to his connection to Liz (even if he's never had sex with her).

If you recall... Liz basically got an orgasm in SEXUAL HEALING from Max simply touching (connecting with) her hand! God knows what will happen when those two finally have sex! Yikes!! Make sure the bomb shelters are stocked up!

Melodious

quote:Originally posted by GraceKel:

Something else I noticed:
Diane Evans says THEY INSTALLED IT TODAY(referring to the new cable tv) hmmmmm I wonder who installed it and what else they installed----some kind of surveillance cameras no doubt.
Phillip Evans wanting the CHINESE MUSTARD and Mrs Evans saying its SPICY enough---hmmmmm.[/B]

Gracekel This dinner scene was creepy to me as well--I just couldn't pin it down. Good idea about the surveillance cameras. Creepy!

About Leanna, she's suspect! She just acted too wierd at the concert. She knows something, whether she's in on some conspiracy or is just paranoid about being abducted (like Brody). And also, she obviously recognized Liz at the concert (or Maria, I guess), but when Liz bursts into her dorm room in Departure, she seems-although surprised-not to recognize her. What's the deal?

To all Liz Mythers, keep the theories coming!

-tab

Oh, and whatever else happens in S3, dammit I want to see Max give Liz his class ring when they graduate!
~Tas

Tas, obviously it's true they could go anywhere. But there were some great ideas on the spoiler thread that I'm really hoping they pick up. The pendant being Max's choosen mate, developing Liz's powers and other stuff too. I'm hoping they didn't scrap it but just delayed it since they didn't need to fit all the anwswers in to 45 minutes, now they have 22 episodes, YAY!!!! Of course, not all things can wait that long.

I also think about Max giving Liz his ring next season. But I'm hoping it's a ruse. She thinks she getting the ring but when she opens the box, it an engagement ring instead.

Ok, I'm sorry I'm a hopeless dreamer, I can't help it. I may need the services of a professional, I'm just to happy with my current thoughts to consider deprogramming.

If I'm wrong Melodious1, please correct me.

This is exactly what I meant Dayneen. The "Leanna" Liz and Max encountered in DEPARTURE was the REAL human Leanna (or Jennifer Coleman, whatever her name is). Just the run-of-the-mill human who's image was merely borrowed by the deceivers as a façade (The real Leanna could even be more than that, but who knows).

The "Leanna" Alex knew however WAS NOT "Leanna" OR human but Lonnie disguised as Leanna. Whether this be from possible shapeshifting abilities, temporarily changing the molecular structure of Lonnie's face/body to look like Leanna or simply mindwarped Alex seeing Leanna instead of Lonnie.

Melodious

Interesting you keep saying that Hybrids might not be able to concieve together which brings me back to Malammood saying that soon Kyle would get in TH pants--or was it Malammod who got in her pants LOL? So she may in fact be preggers but whose is it?

Off to work now!

I had the same thoughts. Just what's the connected with "the skins" and the T/Nacedo duo? Someone brought it up (sorry, I forget ) about WHY didn't T do "the fire thing" in The Harvest if she REALLY did do it in WO?

Something just doesn't make sense (big surprise ).

Oh, and ITA with tp - T is

At the risk of sounding like a kiss @ss, works for me....

quote:
This seems to work on the human side as well. Since Liz has made this connection with Max (several times ), she can never go back? Liz said to FMax that "everyone else would be second best".... perhaps this was more literal than Liz fully realized? Liz could never be "satisfied" with any man that wasn't Max (not with Sean, not Kyle, not anyone).... EVERYONE would be second best to Max (who's not only her soulmate, but someone she's formed this irreversible chemical connection with). Although Max might have made some kind of "connection" with Tess (gag)... it's NOTHING compared to his connection to Liz (even if he's never had sex with her).

If you recall... Liz basically got an orgasm in SEXUAL HEALING from Max simply touching (connecting with) her hand! God knows what will happen when those two finally have sex! Yikes!! Make sure the bomb shelters are stocked up!

I doubt she'll blow up. ANyways, great again. Well then I guess since you won't be joining the other threads you wouldn't mind if soehow your ingenius thoughts there where reposted to fed my fellow dreamers? . Cool. Thanks.

BUT we still miss you

BTW meta sowwy to make you re explain it clearer but you gotta admit it not only makes more sense now but it shows how brilliant it is ...you drank a few didn't you?

So they should get going on making a roswell AVA emoti over the summer?

As for the M/M - okay - call me crazy - but I did not get the vibe that they had just had sex. Being naked (from the waist up) in bed together does not = sex. I mean - Micheal has his own apartment - I am sure that they fool around quite a bit. They just seemed too comfortable and normal with each other - there was none of the intensity that you would expect if they had just had sex for the first time (unless we are to assume that they have been having sex for a while). I just got the impression that they had been fooling around - stopping short of the actual "deed" - as pre-consummated couples are prone to do.

Re: Tess
I think she always planned to be evil - I dont think she felt bad about killing Alex - if she did feel remorse - would she have rushed into the "get pregnant - get everyone else killed" plan??? I mean - the MINUTE Max starts to warm to her - she proceeds to escalate the situation towards his death. If she REALLY just wanted to be loved - she would NOT have tried to get pregnant.
Now - what I think expalins this is:
1) she was a spurned wife on Antar and was out for revenge
2) She was never the wife. She was Vilondra.
This makes the most sense to me and it CREEPS ME OUT. But lets assume she is Max's sister and Isabel is the bride (remember all that "special bond" "You are my home" talk.....)
She is truly in love with Khivar - in love enough to not only betray her brother - but to sleep with him to give Khivar the baby as well. Now before you go off on me - this is waht happened to King Arthur - his SISTER seduced him. And wasnt this a plot point in Gladiator???? He was "forcing" his sister to produce an heir?????? Could Gladiator have been a clue?
This could be why Lonnie left her alone - she realized that Tess was Vilondra. Or perhaps Tess just killed her dupe.
Also CW and Tess - it appeared that CW had had a relationship with Vilondra by the way she talked to Isabel about her. If CW was truly a friend on Antar - then it would explain Tess's weird look at CW's picture in Harvest.
Anyway - I will stop there - but Tess as the sister seems to fit things together - creepy as it may be. It also would make sense then that Max's developing concern for her would not cause her to change her mind about making an heir and having him killed - because she would be doing it all for her TRUE love - Khivar. She may feel regret - because she saw that she was killing innocents - but t wouldnt sway her from her loyalty to her lover.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

It is a definite possibility that that is true. The the only thing Nasedo was able to "interpret" was the pictures. IMO, he didn't do that right either, there is no podsquad destiny. Liz is Max's destiny.

But what about the cave writing? If Nasedo did that then he should be able to read the book, right? Or did someone other that Nasedo do the cave writing? Like another protector (Tic Tac)?

Interesting idea though, thanks for the though.

Anybody with me on the Max/Liz reunion scenerio? It could work.

This is a beautiful fantasy! If only I could believe that the writers were this romantic. I do think there was a time, and maybe UPN will allow that type of writing to return, but ... (my pessimism seems to be overwhelming my optimism this morning - sorry)! BTW - I think both of your takes (Met and yours) on the background story are very plausible and well-thought-out. There will be holes any ANY background story anyone developes because of all the huge CHADS in Season 2 and loose ends from Season 1! (I keep wondering if the writers ever re-watch the old episodes to be reminded of the story they started?) BUT I think you both have done a wonderful job of trying to pull together plausible background stories that "explain" some of those CHADS - I guess only time will tell if the writers can do as well!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

OK, so let me get this straight.. if you think this "mission by Khivar" is a MW, then when do you think he MW'd T? There's some questions I have PRIOR to MITC (see prior post ), so I'm having problems thinking that this is ALL Nicko's doing.

On a seperate (but always related) issue, what's the deal with T sending Alex to decode the book. Where was he getting this information from? And why would she send him when she could just send someone totally unrelated to Roswell? Someone that wouldn't come back and blow her cover?

This gave me an idea. Do we know if Aliens can MW other aliens? Maybe they can't, which is why T (and the dupes??) had to go to such extreme's? Just a thought.. (I have many of those lately )

If in TEOTW Max had the key to the granolith then how did he get it? Because we are lead to believe that Leanna (jcoleman) or whomever rented the property where they found the book and key had it.

Any thoughts?

Good to know I am NOT alone!

Starbox - I've thought about the theory that Tess could possibly be the sister too, and as sick as it sounds, it does tie in nicely with some of her previous behavior.

Zero - I agree, I wonder if the writer's go back and watch previous episodes to see how to tie them all together and figure out ways to eliminate some of the many plot holes. Though Departure was ok on the surface it was plagued with many, many plot holes, and it failed to connect with anything that had been presented to us in the first part of the season. It seemed as if the writers completely ignored the first part of the season when creating this arc. It really makes it difficult to tie things together and speculate. Sigh.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

StarBox - I'm there with you totally! Though I can't stay away from reading the great posts. BUT I plan to take some significant time away - and not rewatch tapes! I guess the happy ending - at least for me - on Felicity (what a GREAT episode that was! - now there is a triangle that has worked for me because it has always made sense to me how it was created and why it is how it is), has helped me break my Roswell obsession. Plus, I keep thinking about the excellent writing on Buffy and how JW brought in all these little clues into the finale (and seems to manage the continuity of storyline - even after 5 years of episodes!), and it makes me sad about the lost potential with Roswell (not a lost cause, but lost for now!). However, I am going to go to the LA party to meet and hang out with all the GREAT people of this BOARD!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

You're coming!??! YAY! Me too me too!!!

I know several people are wondering if Nasedo was on the Skins side, why he didn’t just deliver the Granolith. There would have to be another reason. Unless, like MissLParker said he couldn’t translate the book (since he didn’t know how the orbs worked). Then again, he could have been lying about how to use the orbs. He didn’t seem to keen on giving out information. Ignorance helps his cause!

Meta: I like your theory and I also like yours Alwaysdreamin. However Meta I really think Max would have been killed if Liz wouldn't have shown up on MITC. If Max wouldn't have stepped forward he would have been crushed. I really think the Duped intended to kill him. So this still leaves us wondering why would they if they knew about the deal?

Evid

If in TEOTW Max had the key to the granolith then how did he get it? Because we are lead to believe that Leanna (jcoleman) or whomever rented the property where they found the book and key had it.

Any thoughts?

This would fit in with the idea of Leanna being Serena. We know that Serena befriended Liz and Future Max knew her. There's also the question of whether or not there's only one key. Perhaps different keys perform different functions? The crystal on EOTW could have been what was modified in order to perform time travel instead of turn into a freaking spaceship!

Meta, Dayneen I understood what you meant, Meta, about Jennifer Coleman being elsewhere while Lonnie impersonated her during Alex's stay. Logically, this makes sense. It fits. For whatever reason, though, it feels intuitively wrong to me. I'm probably crazy and you're right, but that's where I am

Re: the pendant. Given that the original spoilers had Max giving Liz the pendant as signifying that she was his Queen, I have a thought. If they decide to go with this idea, then Liz has been the Queen since Riverdog. Since before Tess and Nasedo even showed up. Tess never even had a chance
~Tas

Tas.. hun... this show has driven us ALL crazy I think. So wherever you are, you're not alone!

quote:Re: the pendant - Given that the original spoilers had Max giving Liz the pendant as signifying that she was his Queen, I have a thought. If they decide to go with this idea, then Liz has been the Queen since Riverdog. Since before Tess and Nasedo even showed up. Tess never even had a chance

Of course, it's Isabel who found it... although Michael ALSO recognized the symbol almost instantaneously. Max always knew the symbol because he drew it in RIVER DOG early in the ep from memory. Max and Isabel also drew it in the sand (while on vacation in Florida I believe) when they were children (also revealed in RD). It was a reoccuring theme, at least in early Season 1. Although, that alone is probably what's gotten me so giddy since it's resurfacing in DEP (OMG!! A blatant reference to Season 1!! S1 HASN'T been forgotten!! ) First it was the pendant... can we see a return of River Dog or Eddie... maybe Milton (call me crazy, but I always liked him)?! Dare we hope?

The fact this pendant has resurfaced at all has me antsy because it seems the symbol has been almost universally recognized by most *important* parties (Max, Isabel, Michael and River Dog)... so the thing seems *definitely* important to me. The whirlwind symbol AND the pendant seemingly disappear entirely after RIVER DOG however, *until* DEPARTURE, last episode of season 2. The same episode, Tess is revealed as a murderer and is "exiled" back to Antar. We're left pondering on the significance of this seemingly innocent action by Max, giving this pendant to Liz... and his "wife" basically taken out of the picture. The same symbol was hovering above the Granilith... now Liz owns the pendant. WHAT does it all mean?

Melodious

I was thinking that might be it because in the TEOTW the key was a pinkish color and in Departure it was clear or white. So I was guessing that they modified the key in TEOTW. The whole Serena/Leanna/JColeman seems a little werid to me. If Alex new her as Leanna and her real name was JColeman. I find it hard to believe that she would be Serena uless she changes her name. Also didnt future max say the Liz and Serena became friends in college? I wounder what year Leanna/JCoelman is in at college right now?

Just a thought

But what about the cave writing? If Nasedo did that then he should be able to read the book, right? Or did someone other that Nasedo do the cave writing? Like another protector (Tic Tac)?

Interesting idea though, thanks for the though.

I don't think Nasedo would have had to 'translate' the book, as much as just pick it up and read it. I was going to argue the cave wall paintings, but you beat me to it. My guess is that Nasedo is on Earth to protect them -- not to 'lead' them, so I think he didn't encourage them to use the orbs (or not) because it was their decision. Remember, they are royalty and he is just there 'serving' them, so to speak. He let them know what could *possibly* happen, then stepped back and let them make their own decicion. As far as Nasedo using the Orbs, why would he? He didn't need the mommogram to tell him about Destiny. That message wasn't meant for him. He had been given his mission and that was his focus.

And by saying that the deal is a mindwarp, does not make Tess innocent in all of this. Just like if Max were to have been mindwarped, he wouldn't have been completely unresponsible for his actions, either.

Anyway, if the deal wasn't a mindwarp, can someone explain to me why Alex was sent to Sweden to 'decode' the Destiny book right after MITC? Why not before? And why did it happen only a week after that episode (according to the timelines)? Why was it important to mention on silverhandprint.com that he didn't think he got in, but then he did and left within the week? WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?

I'm sticking with my theory until someone can poke some serious holes in it!!

And for all of those who believe, repeat after me: The deal is just a mindwarp, the deal is just a mindwarp....

{~}:}

I'll need to do some research--Zero, I know someone posted stuff about crystals before, is any of that in the intro or saved to go into it? If so, I'd love you forever if you PMd it to me--but I know that quartz crystal is often used as a power focus in New Age stuff. Slightly different crystals mean slightly different energies, therefore different results? I'm reaching back to when I was into all of this stuff! But that could explain why they didn't work the same, even if they were the same kind of crystal. They were "charged" differently.
~Tas

[/B]

Before I actually saw Departure, I was convinced that Leanna was in fact Serena. Now, to add a little twist to your theory above, what if Serena is the other protector and she is good.

Now, hear me out here. OK, if the Granolith was sent down to earth with the podsters, and the protectors were sent down to earth to protect the podsters, wouldn't it stand to reason that the 'protectors' would also be responsible (in part) for protecting the Granolith. Perhaps Serena/Leanna knew what Nicholas/Lonnie/Rath were up to and decided to intervene. Why else would Alex have emailed Leanna the translation? My guess is because Leanna is actually Serena who is trying to help the podsters. Leanna/Serena was the one who set up the warehouse scenario, hoping that it would be Lonnie/Rath/Nicholas who stumbled across it. That translation of the Destiny book is FAKE and was meant for Lonnie/Rath/Nicholas. Also, this would explain the whole Leanna/Jennifer Coleman scenario. Remember, the other protector is a shapeshifter too, and I think it would make total sense that the other shapeshifter disguised themselves as a student to help out Alex (which in turn would be helping the podsters).

This actually makes sense. Because if we are to believe that Tess sent Alex to Las Cruces to decode the book -- then who is Leanna? My guess is that Leanna is Serena who is the other protector and she was at Las Cruces helping/protecting Alex, and she was there to make sure that the *real* translation of the Destiny book did not fall into Nicholas, Lonnie and Rath's hands. Hence the warehouse, the alien bomb, etc. This was set up by Serena and was meant for Nicholas, Lonnie and Rath.

It makes sense. I think I might stick with this theory!

{~}:}

[b]Meta: I like your theory and I also like yours Alwaysdreamin. However Meta I really think Max would have been killed if Liz wouldn't have shown up on MITC. If Max wouldn't have stepped forward he would have been crushed. I really think the Duped intended to kill him. So this still leaves us wondering why would they if they knew about the deal?

Evid[/B]

OK, maybe they did mean to kill him. But they would've seen right away that they weren't succesful. Maybe if they had succeeded in killing Max, they would've used Tess only to get the Granolith. In others words, they would've mindwarped her with a different story.

Since we're still unsure about the baby being real or not, how do we know the whole baby wasn't just a ploy to get Max back to Antar? It seems to me that the main thing in this storyline was to get the Granolith back to Khivar. If while doing that they were able to deliver Max and the others to Khivar as well, then fine. But I did get the impression that it didn't really matter if Max was returned to the home planet dead or alive.

The thing is that something happened in MITC that effected everything afterwards.

Also, why haven't we heard anything from Nicholas and the dupes since then? How many of you honestly believe they would have sat back quietly and not continued to attempt to use the Granolith? My theory makes sense because this would mean that they had been working on obtaining the Granolith the whole time. They didn't give up, and it wasn't a dropped storyline!!!

Anyhow, I'm having lots of fun defending myself here!!!!

{~}:}

Ep1, Season 3... Max goes to work the next day and Brody runs up to him frantic. Saying one of his supercomputers has not only detected *another* signal coming out of somewhere near Roswell, but also was able to track it (OR one of his contacts at NASA got in touch with him with this info). The signal NEVER left Earth's atmosphere and stopped at a certain location (Copper Summit maybe?). Max - believing his son is still on Earth - barrels to said location with Mike and Isabel (Liz, Maria, Kyle and Jim accompany them?).

I don't really have specs on the details after this, but eventually at some point ... either Tess or Nikolas (in that stupid James Bondian villain sort of way) reveals the truth about the sex/baby (mindwarps by Nikolas? Possibly by Tess too, although she was influenced by Nikolas?). It's also revealed hybrids were never intended to procreate (another tactical error by *stupid James Bondian sort of villain* Nikolas - revealing more than he should)?

Anyway... everyone somehow manages to survive this dire situation. Max, Mike and Iz want to kill Tess possibly because unfortunately, Alex's death had nothing to do with the possible mindwarp Niko was doing on Tess (if Meta's theory holds true)... Tess is the only one responsible for killing Alex. Liz, however, intervenes... although Liz is just as disgusted with Tess as everyone else if not moreso... this is when Liz tells everyone about Future Max. Tess needs to live or they're not a complete unit. Max, however, flat out says... "You come near me or mine again Tess... unit or not... I'll END you!! Don't forget... you ARE still replaceable! (Max referring to Tess' dupe, Ava) As far as I'm concerned... there's ever only been ONE Queen in my heart... (he takes Liz's hand) and it's NEVER been you." (and the Dreamers scream jubilantly ). It also seems to benefit... keep your friends close, but your enemies closer. Tess is better left in Roswell so she can be watched as opposed to doing god knows what with god knows who outside of Roswell.

Now if Tess thought everyone hated her before...

This theory - if it held true - would also eventually bring back the Special Unit. Since this "rocket" was probably caught and tracked by gov't radar/satellites... they'll find wherever it landed. Discover something they shouldn't... BAM! Special Unit is reopened. Season 3... another one of the podsters possibly visits the White Room? Maybe all of them? Or maybe one of their human friends this time?

Melodious

My only question is, if she knew about Nasedo, Tess and the dupes plan why did she allow Max to return to the past to "change" things, or in the previous timeline did she not know about the deal Nasedo made??

Melodious1 - If the writers try to create some continuity next season, your theory would be a great way to bring the Special Unit back into the mix. And I think it would be interesting if either Liz or Kyle get kidnapped by the unit this time, since they were "changed" by Max healing them. Actually I think Liz would probably be the more likely one, since there were rumors about what happened the day of the shooting about her getting shot. I can easily see her becoming a target of the Special Unit.

Btw, did you get my PM??
-----------------
I can't believe that after everything - Liz(Departure)

Then that would make Max and T brother/sister? Given recent "supposed events" in ITL&ITB? May I just say...

PODS
IN VLV we open with Maria speaking, then this shot:

...then a girl emerges...

...then a shot of Liz.

I think Liz is one of the poddies, and that she was not an alien but a cloned human )possibly TWO humans? so a hybrid human ). From Sheila Hubble.

THE BRIDE SCENE

The bride is blonde (TESS) and has wine stain which could symbolically be blood if paralleled to the Vilondra tale. The other girl there looks like Liz, (*see pic below) but she is not the one wearing the wedding dress.
She is the waitress.

Perhaps Liz was not 'suitable' for marrying a King but Zan loved her.

Isabel helps her and erases the stain. Perhaps sybolic to Vilondra trying to stop the bloodshed and make peace?

Isabel likes the bestman. Maybe Isabel liked Michael or the bestman here was Kivar??? ANd the groom (Max) is blindfolded as a symbol of his not really being able to see what was going on. I think Tess was Kivar's sister/daughter too. I don't know who started that theory but ...

Has anyone ever seen the opera Aida? I always htink they ust be their encarnates. In ancient Egypt, near the royal palace at Memphis, Radamès learns from the high priest, Ramfis, that Ethiopia soon may bring war to the Nile valley. The young officer hopes he will be chosen as commander of the army, envisioning triumph so he can free his beloved Aida, Ethiopian slave of the proud Princess Amneris. Amneris, who herself loves Radamès, jealously senses his feelings for Aida when the three meet. A procession led by the King arrives to confirm that the Ethiopians are advancing on Thebes. He appoints the jubilant Radamès as Egyptian commander, at which shouts of victory fill the air. Left alone, Aida is torn between her love for Radamès and for her native land: though now a slave, she is in fact the daughter of Amonasro, king of Ethiopia who was forced to be a slave. The commander renounces his title so he can marry Aida.

On the Nile, Amneris is led by Ramfis to a temple of Isis for a wedding vigil. Nearby, waiting for Radamès, Aida is overcome with nostalgia for her homeland. Amonasro, who suddenly appears, preys on these feelings, forcing his daughter to agree to ask Radamès where the Egyptian army plans to enter Ethiopia. This she does when Radamès appears, ardent with dreams of their future life together. Just as he reveals the military secret, Amonasro steps out of hiding, and Ramfis and Amneris come forth from the temple. While Aida escapes with her father, Radamès surrenders to the priests as a traitor. Amneris' offer to save him if he will renounce Aida and marry her. When he is led away, Amneris' pride dissolves, her love for Radamès revealed by her agony in hearing him condemned to death. Enraged, the princess curses the judges. Buried alive in a crypt, Radamès is joined by Aida, who has hidden there to share his fate. The lovers bid farewell to earth as Amneris, above the tomb, prays for peace.

Maybe Vilondra got Max to marry Tess so their war with Kivar would end or Tess offered to do so but Max was in love with the slave girl who ended up was a princess too but in the end they didn't make it. That could have been the Vilondra story replayed in another time.

OK, so anyone else think there SHOULD be more to the Granolith than JUST a "sapce ship"? Seems like a whole hell of a lot of trouble (the summit, deaths, conspiracy) for simply a space ship back to a place that appears to have no rhymn or reason. Heck, even Rath said that Antar was being ruled by Khivar and everyone "hates his ass". So.. why the big hurry to get back there!?

Mel Something will have registered on someone's radar. If the FBI gets involved again, they don't have an SS to replace the new Pierce. IMO, said new Pierce would be smartest to go after Liz (actually, so would everyone else, but hey!). Not that I want to see that for Liz, but really, she's the most logical and the most damaging target.
Does anyone know if the area around Roswell is subject to much seismic activity? B/c I can just see seismologists picking up on the shaking, crumbling, spewing mountain! And we never got to see if that virtual melted metal stuff all dissolved or what after it bubbled out of the mountaintop. I hope so!

Question: Valenti was supposed to give the videotape to the Evans after he was sure M/M/I/T were gone. Presumably he would have noticed the disturbance b/c he was looking for it. So, did he give it to them? Did they watch it? If so, will M/I make up some ridiculous story to explain it (like trying to find their birth parents ), or will they actually tell their parents the truth? And who thinks it would be a good thing if the Evans knew the truth? I think they're going to have to tell Amy, she's already starting to break out of the MW and she'll remember soon enough. But what about M/I's parents? Thoughts?
~Tas

Zero, (I think) thanks for the noticing my little romantic fantasy. Hopefully season 3 will start off well enough to renew your faith in the magic too.

Meta and Mel, love the ideas about Serena and the ship not leaving earth. I hope to take more time looking them over this weekend. But love the jist, both theories can definitely go somewhere.

[/B]

OK, I've wanted Iz to tell her parents since season 1, but I have the feeling that it won't happen. These parents are mostly non-present characters. If Valenti gives the parents that weird suicide tape, then M/I are either heading for therapy or telling their parents the truth. Having to explain the truth would pull the parents into the story a great deal more than the writers seem willing to do. I guess that's a dumb answer. I'll think about it more--
M/I might take the stance that, although it would be nice to tell them, it's better that as few people know about the truth--less loved ones that might be targeted by the podsters' enemies... I don't know. I have a feeling Valenti won't rush to give that tape away though. By the time he starts the investigation into BOB, the podsters (minus Tess!!) will have told him what happened.

It makes sense. I think I might stick with this theory!

{~}:}

Meta,
I really like this theory because (as I posted earlier but no one responded to ) The last time we see tic tac is in ID where he/she takes the form of Hank and tells Valenti that he is taking a job in Las Cruces.

What do you think Meta?

edited to rejoice about my 4th star and being an addicted fan! Like I didn't already know that.
Shapeshifter, let's make me an avatar!

With regard to the Max’s new quest to find his “son” – can we all just clap our hands and say “I believe, I believe that...“ Max will realize that nothing is as it seems with regard to her? I dread that T*** will show up sometime in S3 with an infant/toddler boy and claim that he is Max’s son. If Max just buys that without batting an eye after all that has happened, I think I may choke. Unfortunately, I think that may be the type of thing the writers would pull. I have to hold out hope that the more Liz thinks about this “pregnancy”, the more she will doubt it and be compelled to figure it out (i.e. is it fake, is it even biologically possible, etc.). As much as I wanted her to figure it out right then and there when Max told her T*** was pregnant, it wouldn’t have made sense because it was too emotionally overwhelming a time. Melodious – I like the Ava scenario (though I think you did rabbits a great disservice by comparing Lonnie/Rath to them ). There are many different ways that the writers could use to explain that the pregnancy is fake. They could even tie together your idea – Ava claiming that hybrid/hybrid reproduction is impossible – with backup “support” from our resident science whiz – Liz. That would only work if the podsters gave her word a little more credence now that she saved their a$$es big time

Reggie – loved your post, made me
Meta – sorry this is so late, but I enjoyed your theory It would help clear up at least one or two continuity issues at least! And Alwaysdreamin’, I enjoyed your take on things, too. I have yet to decide intellectually whether or not T*** is the epitome of evil (though emotionally, I scream “yes, she is!” )
Zero – Maybe I am just loopy from reading so much today, but when you made mention of Liz being the key sort of like Dawn was the key, I could only think of little Rick Moranis running around NYC talking to horses about the gate keeper and the key master

Here is a far-fetched, wild and out there thought – (1) Liz spent last summer with relatives in FL, (2) Max and Isabel were on vacation in FL when they drew the whirlwind symbol in the sand. What spurred the drawing in the sand? Did they just randomly start drawing or did Max perhaps see little Liz on the beach that day (visiting those same FL relatives) and, without knowing why, spontaneously start drawing it? Isabel, recognizing the symbol, could have joined in drawing without knowing why Max drew it in the first place. They would have been old enough in that picture for Max to have already seen Liz getting off the bus but young enough for him not to have spoken to her yet...just a thought and sorry for how long this post is!!

Well, I have a feeling that that's just what we're gonna get. Katims has this thing with symmerty I think. But I can see it working, for me anyway, in terms of making Max realize that he has legitimate Human competition for Liz's affections now. He has to work to regain her trust, her faith in him, he's gotta prove himself to be worthy of her devotion, cause sleeping with Tess really blew the whole "honorable guy" image for her I think. Max has a lot to make up for and Sean isn't isn't gonna make it easy for him because he's gonna get sick and tired of all the crap Max has put Liz through. In a way I don't want it to be easy for Max, it's time he bended over backwards for Liz, something on par with all that she's done for him. And Liz, she needs to be very careful with her heart now. Max has even more ties, because of his child, to that alien world of his. It's even more real to him now that he knows his son is there. To me, I've always envisioned Max and Liz as the most special of friends, the kind of friends that could potentially give their lives for one another. It'll be interesting to see them work through this gradually. That's how we do it in the real world!
If Katims is writing the relationship stuff, it'll rock. I have no worries.

It's the only symbol on Silverhandprint that doesn't have a link yet, and season 2 is now finito.

Melodious

I like this theory!

Let me know when you are “home” like Max is home in Liz’s arms!

Now for my thoughts...I have none! Too many holes and loose end for me!!

As for the new triangle, I have a real dillema, I adore Sean. I miss the M/L of last season, but am torn when it comes to the M/L of S2. I just want some happiness for them, be it apart or together.

~Sheri
Sorry this is a bit off the topic!

My only question is, if she knew about Nasedo, Tess and the dupes plan why did she allow Max to return to the past to "change" things, or in the previous timeline did she not know about the deal Nasedo made??

[/B]

My theory is that there was never any *real* deal. I think Nicholas, Lonnie and Rath mindwarped Tess in that last scene in MITC (the dates support this theory) into *believing* that there was such a deal. Since EOTW happened before MITC, it's irrelevant.

I'm glad you like the idea of Leanna being Serena who is the other shapeshifter who is Good! It makes sense, doesn't it?

Woo Hoo....

{~}:}

What do you think Meta?

edited to rejoice about my 4th star and being an addicted fan! Like I didn't already know that.
Shapeshifter, let's make me an avatar!

Congrats on your 4th star! I think during my rampant posting on this thread of late I hit 1000 posts!

What do I think of what you said above? I love it. Even if it wasn't intentional in Season 1 for that to happen (you know, our Roswell writers don't think that far in advance!!), it totally fits in!!!!

Anyhow, I think I'm content with what I think happened. It all kind of makes sense. Even if the writers decide to go somewhere completely different, it won't drive me nuts all summer!

{~}:}

The beauty of a shapeshifter is that it can take on the *form* of a human at different times. The girl you saw in the Departure was definitely just a innocent girl. My guess is that Serena/other protector shapeshifted into and out of Leanna as needed.

In fact, at the concert I think that WAS the shapeshifter, and I definitely think that Maria and Liz were recognized. However, the second time we saw Leanna in her room, that was really Jennifer Coleman. Not Leanna.

Leanna is not Leanna is not Leanna. My guess is that Serena (the other shapeshifter) saw this girl on campus and decided to use her form. She introduced herself to Alex as "Leanna", and that is who Leanna is. Jennifer Coleman, the girl you saw in Departure, is really just an innocent human pawn.

Confusing enough?

{~}:}

Tasyfa - Look under near the end of the section on the Granolith. There is info on Crystals there. Hope that helps!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

In fact, at the concert I think that WAS the shapeshifter, and I definitely think that Maria and Liz were recognized. However, the second time we saw Leanna in her room, that was really Jennifer Coleman. Not Leanna.

Leanna is not Leanna is not Leanna. My guess is that Serena (the other shapeshifter) saw this girl on campus and decided to use her form. She introduced herself to Alex as "Leanna", and that is who Leanna is. Jennifer Coleman, the girl you saw in Departure, is really just an innocent human pawn.

Confusing enough?

{~}:}

Actually, that totally cleared it up for me! And ITA, I think that's what happened too. I'm so glad that you're being driven to articulate this b/c I'm loving your theories!

aldebaran Oh, how I've missed you! That's an interesting thought on the galaxy swirl relating to Florida. I don't think I can add thinking about the child versions of everyone to my list right now, I'm already

Zero Oh, thank you for pointing that out! I appreciate it
~Tas

People...I'm gettin frustrated here is anyone going to notice that the POD THING WAS POKED!!! HELLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOO!!!??!! AND OUT COMES A LITTLE GIRL!!! Come on people wake up !! You can see the darn thing that poked it clear as day !! Leaky pod? Little girl? grrrrr,.......

PODS
IN VLV we open with Maria speaking, then this shot:

...then a girl emerges (with a yellow sweater may I add )...Liz or Sheila? Take your pick!!!

Roswelldiva****

That GIRL is actually MAX. If you rewatch the episode four square you will see when he comes out. It would be cool if it wasnt though.

WHo said it was Max or are we to assume so? So Max came out of the leaky pod?? I think not . And btw that image I posted was for the beginning of VLV. Why would they put it there again then show Liz? In fact, less my memory fails me wasn't QFanny or someone talking about this very thing once??????

I would have to rewatch VLV to see what you are talking about for sure. But, that was the little boy that was in Four Square playing Max. I would like for it to be Liz though.

I do think Liz will ultimately forgive Max because he was warped into it on at least some level, and he was manipulated into accepting Tess by Liz herself.

I think Max is going to need Liz's help if he wants to get his son back, but a son that is half Tess's could be quite a handful.

Tess/Ava was probably Kvar's sister.
BTW, Lonnie would have wanted to kill Zan because then her heir would be heir to the throne.

I really liked this episode, but I haven't watched it enough to truly disect it but here are some of my thoughts:

1)The first time I watched it I was a little worried that the world might end in 14 years because they don't have a complete "unit" any more, but then I remembered Ava, and Liz could probably convince her to help them, but my next thought was...
2)What if the whole future Max thing was only a Mindwarp?
3)Is Nicholus and Whitticker on the same side as Khivar? If Nascato was on Khivar's side why did Whitticker kill him? Was it really her that did kill him?

I really liked this episode, but I haven't watched it enough to truly disect it but here are some of my thoughts:

1)The first time I watched it I was a little worried that the world might end in 14 years because they don't have a complete "unit" any more, but then I remembered Ava, and Liz could probably convince her to help them, but my next thought was...
2)What if the whole future Max thing was only a Mindwarp?
3)Is Nicholus and Whitticker on the same side as Khivar? If Nascado was on Khivar's side why did Whitticker kill him? Was it really her that did kill him?
4)I wonder what Nascado and Tess got in return for the deal?
5)Is anyone else wondering what they are going to do now that they've delivered the Granilith right to Khivar?

Sorry, this is a tad long.

I think that Tess was Max's 2nd in command, Michael was and is Max's best friend.

tess was definatly Vilandra but Whitaker switched everything around to make it sound like Isabel, but wasn't true... so Tess is no relation. I think that Nasedo was Tess's dad and maybe even Khivars or nicholas's... then that old lady would be tess's mom and she was somewhat motherly... and Tess did ask about Whitaker to her... I'll have to rewatch

okay bye for now justsmile

edited because I came up with this idea

What if TicTac had put the pods where they went, Nasedo knew where they went but didn't know which pods where which... So he went to the NY one and was there when they came out (I think they came out before the Pod Squad) realize who they actually where, told them there names including Vilandra and told lonnie what she did (which wasn't her but Tess/Ava) so that would work into his plan. Went to New Mexico the three where hatched already waited for tess and the rest is history.

But that's only if Tess/Ava are who they say they are and are not planted

Meta, one more hole I'm really struggling with. Since EOTW happened before MITC, why did Tess leave? According to your theory, there's no deal with Nacedo. There's no Nicko mind-warp in the FM/FL scenerio because the summit doesn't happen. Tess leaves, even though there was good evidence she and Kyle could have made a beautiful fourth pairing. Why?

4everyoung, I guess no one but us wants to discuss the ghost of the Granolith. It could be Future Max brushing by, or a deadly symbol of how far over their heads they have become. It was nice and creepy though, wasn't it!

Alwaysdreamin, I like the idea of Max watching her sleep. If we could see more of that side of him again, maybe we'd even get Melodious back in our camp( ). I have to admit I'm feeling a bit tarnished myself... -HH

[/B]

I've been wondering about that, too. As soon as the granalith/spaceship took off with Tess, I expected Isabel to be the first one to run to Maria's car and demand to be taken back to Roswell before the Sheriff got the chance to give the tape to the Evans. Or use Maria's phone (if I remember correctly, she almost always has one on her) to call Valenti. But then again, Isabel's behavior in the last few minutes has really been bugging me. It seemed to me that her reaction to the discovery that Tess killed Alex wasn't shocked or angry enough. I most certainly didn't expect her to placidly walk out of the granalith chamber instead of strangling Tess herself. And then at the end... the "What do we do now, Max?" line. Definitly not very Isabel like. Since when did she stand around and ask Max what to do?

I don't now what it means or if it is bad writing but it all seems suspicious to me.

RW

Good question. My first response is how do we know there wasn't a summit in that first timeline? How do we know WHAT happened in that first timeline -- we don't. There could've been a summit. It would seem that there would be. The events leading up to the summit (the dupes showing up, etc.) had nothing really to do with EOTW.

Who knows why Tess left the first time. FM said it was because of the way he treated her. Maybe after Liz and Max cemented Tess felt even more alienated then she did before. Remember, in the second timeline it wasn't until after EOTW that Tess really started to be accepted by Max. Yes, I too think Kyle and Tess would have made an adorable couple, however, at the time of EOTW they were just starting to flirt with the possibility... and who knows how Max and Liz being together would've effected the dynamics of the group. It was only after EOTW that we slowly started to see Max and Tess get closer. In the first timeline Tess wouldn't have had a chance to get closer to Max.

Anyhow, there are no perfect explanations because we don't know for sure, but I can definitely see where Tess might have left anyway in the first timeline -- even without the mindwarp at the summit.

{~}:}

The plan is just a mindwarp

(Max runs back to Rath and Lonnie's lair and finds Tess sitting there in the middle of the floor)

MAX: Tess! Tess! Tess, are you all right?

TESS: I don't know.

MAX: What happened?

TESS: They tried to get inside my head, find out where the granilith is. I...I didn't want them to...so I fought back.

MAX: How?

TESS: I...I don't know.

MAX: Where are they?

TESS: I don't know.

MAX: Tess...Tess, are you all right?

TESS: I'm ready to go home now. Home to Roswell.

MAX: Ok.

It's probably significant that in the F/M, F/L scenerio, the Granolith does not change sides. Even though Khivar seems to be winning the war, he hasn't gotten his hands on it. That's why I think he's behind EOTW...and Serena too, because they couldn't have done it without her.

Tas, I'm also wondering if Leanna could have someone occupying her body once in awhile the way poor Brody does. If that were true, she'd still bleed when pricked, but could display occasional strange behavior. -HH

I made it back and had to take a while to read and catch up. Wow you guys are kookin... I think I am going to have to think about some of the things that have been brought up before I try to even form an idea.

quote:Originally posted by haniczka:
4everyoung, I guess no one but us wants to discuss the ghost of the Granolith. It could be Future Max brushing by, or a deadly symbol of how far over their heads they have become. It was nice and creepy though, wasn't it!

You're right, it is both nice and creepy. Like that kind of stuff.

Keep up the great work guys, I'll be back later.

I just keep seeing season 3 start off with Liz being very wary as it regards having a relationship with Max. As she should. They have been through a great deal at this point. And it has yet to be proven that he didn't sleep with Tess or produce a child with her. (God, I can't wait for that to go down in flames. But back to my point.) But Max on the other hand is going to come out of this all the more convinced that he needs Liz more than anything else in this world. However it will be the small but meaningful things that will convince Liz that Max is still the man she fell for in season 1. Things like his desire to watch her peacely sleeping, or lightly touching her hand just to feel a connection to her, or leaving her small gifts that let her know she is always on his mind.

But I think it will come out that the fact that Max gives Liz the pendant makes her his bride as far as the other aliens are concerned and therefore makes her a target. So we'll see a bit of a reversal of season 1 (and 2), which I really saw as Liz trying to protecting Max from being discovered. Maybe Max will start helping Liz develop her powers as a way to protect herself from the baddies that may be looking for her.

I see lots of small intimate opportunities for Max to re-establish trust with Liz. They should all center around the Max and Liz's thoughts and feelings. The TPTB wont need a big dramatic chain-jerk, no one will believe it. It should be so subtle that you desire for it to come to fruition before you even realize you were headed down that path. And when you get there, you'll ask when did I become untarnished? It'll happen because of Liz's importance to the aliens. They won't be able to make any great steps forward in understanding their roles or responsibilities until it does. She'll reveal their true path to them.

I'm sorry if someone has already asked, (I'm still trying to catch up!), but does anyone know where the re-runs will be aired? I am seriously needing to see "It's too...". I wish to view it, obtain it or whatever!!

Thanks!
mako

I hope my reply is seen by you all being I'm probably posting at the end of the thread, but I thought I'd add my two cents!!

META: I loved discussing your theory last night, but I got too

I believe we are on the same wavelength regarding everything but your new motto: the "deal" was a mindwarp. Hope you don't mind me disagreeing

With all the nuturing that occured, Tess' defenses definitely came down (ICAM that she shown remorse for Alex's death). BUT, she still went ahead with the "ultimate" plan (going home, with Max's baby, as well as to deliver the three) -- she was determined at all costs to fulfull her agenda. (I'm taking that you thought that was her goal from the beginning, right??) Why was she so determine to get back home??? She was starting to feel welcomed and was part of a family (Valenti's). I felt she had a tough time saying good-bye to Jim, don't you agree? IMO, she was getting a taste for the good life, why go back home where there is un-rest and war?? That's why I feel that there was a "deal" made -- she could be "offered" things from Kivar when she fulfulled her destiny - her goal.

But to answer some of your questions regarding Alex's trip to Sweden, I have a few theories. . . . . . Am I boring you yet??

I do believe that it is a BIG CLUE as to the timing of this so-called "trip". There is no doubt in my mind that L/R/N have wormed their way into the demise of Max. So why send Alex away to decode the book?

1) Is it possible that they seen or told by Tess that Liz/Maria and Alex were good, good friends. Maybe they wanted to separate them (divide & conquer) so that between the three of them, "notes" of what is happening or not happening amongst the pod-squad won't filter out between the three!!

2) Let's say Leanna is Lonnie in disguise. (I'm sorry, I can't remember who said what anymore regarding Serena/Leanna, was that you??) They sent Alex away from Isabel to toughen him up so that when he gets back from the supposed trip, Isabel would be preoccupied or jealous or determined to get Alex back to being her "puppy dog". If Isabel was busy with her own life, Max would be free game to toy with. Also, remember when Alex was scared b/c someone was knocking on his window?? HOM I do believe.

Decoding the book could be a cover in case someone would find out that the trip didn't take place. A good friend helping out the pod-squad.

But this brings me to the authenticity of the DB. This book was handed over by Tess herself. A person who is a LIAR and a BETRAYER!! What good is it really?? Wouldn't this book only benefit what she wanted -- to produce Max's heir?? Why would she hand over a book explaining things other than to encourage pro-creating and a way to get home, via the Granolith? I'm thinking that you agree that is what Tess wanted all along - right from the start. Now if the pod-squad came across it on their own, the book could hold valuable information from their home planet, wouldn't it?? Wouldn't the Mother or who ever sent this book with them all have information upon information. . . . why they are there, what to do about the Granolith, how to deal with humans, who their enemies are, what their enemie's weaknesses are, where home is, etc. etc.

So if a person considers that the book is fake, my theory would be that Alex took it upon himself to try and decode the book, and somehow Tess found out about this. Would she be frequently checking to see if the book is in place at the chamber -- protecting it? Would the other three be looking at it and Alex took it to figure it out and Tess discovered this?? I'm thinking he confronts her (or she found out) when she gets back from NYC and she "erased" his memories, neutralizing him to "Sweden", using him to "decode" the book for purposes to get home ----- if info from Alex was given to the pod-squad, they (pod-squad) would trust it, right?? . . . . . . . This is a very, very weak arguement. I'm not too comfortable with it, but please shoot holes in it, I would love it!!

Before I loose myself entirely I just would like to comment that I do like the theory that Serena planted the bomb for the dupes at the warehouse. Even though it blows my theory to shreds.

Oh, soooo many interruptations, but it is fun to speculate, even though it is . . . um . . . . confusing.

plus someone said before that liz could be the granolith thats an interesting question because she could be like dawn from buffy.....
although the key was used in eotw she could be the actuall key that will make it work the cystal only charing it up .....becasue i found it interesting that when the granolith did work in eotw that only max went and not liz.....why iddnt the gronolith pick liz up in the process??????

Because the baby isn't real ! *HIGH FIVE GIRLFRIEND*!! Good call!

RE: grenolith, well T did not use it as a time achine but merely as transporter to Antar . Maybe it does need Liz to do all the cool a wacky other stuff its meant to do and thats why they're gonna gave to send it back .

meta good call on Tess's "I'ready to go home line!"! I believe! I believe!...in your theory!!!:hotipinkie:

Meta - Everything you are saying is really flowing together.

I like the theory that Leanna is really Serena & she is in turn the protector. We don't have any proof that she was hurting Alex so why make her such a significate part of his "trip". She was in every picture with him, always there. And, if Alex was there to decode the book & he did it. How come Tess wasn't the one to get the translation and the key? (Note - yes we know Liz is the smart one always figuring things out) But why wouldn't Tess be there to get the translation? Leanna could have set it all up in that warehouse, like you said, for The Dupes and Nik. I don't think that Leanna was Lonnie. I don't think that Alex's message "Leanna is not Leanna" was supposed to be meant as she was evil. If she was why wouldn't she of just taken the translation and key then?

I'm trying not to lose my train of thought here...So Leanna could have the real translation but what was with the key? It would have been blown up, I don't get that part.

As far as Tess being the sister, I like that theory, but I think the writer's would need to make the sex/baby a mindwarp or some people wouldn't be able to stomach it .

I've always wondered about the momogram...Liz was in the pod chamber & while I was watching it I was wondering if she was talking about Liz at all it that little explaination.

Sheila Hubble, we haven't heard about her in a long time & she did resemble Liz a lot. So I'm really getting into this theory about Liz being a podster...maybe not an alien one necessarily.

Like Ava said, Zan was always searching for someone else it seemed. Why? Because obviously there was someone out there connected to him in some way. I wish he was still in the picture...I'd love to see if he had a reaction to Liz.

But anyhow, I rewatched MITC and it is really obvious that the Dupes did something to Tess. Her whole demeaner was different when Max found her in the warehouse.

There was something else I wanted to reply on but these kids need my attention.

I still have a question though - what was wit the Thai food??

Cantbehrit

I know they must have mentioned it, but how were the Pods of Sof47 (with the leaky grey stuff) in that chamber while the other Pods (?) where in the mountain? I forget.. or they didn't tell us.. or I'm losing my mind.

I was thinking about Tess killing Alex. And it occured to me that "Leanna" saw Liz and Maria, then led them to the old building, where a bomb is waiting for them. The bomb goes off...end of Maria and Liz. The podsters find them and find the deciphered book and crystal. Bingo! Everyone returns to Antar, because their loved ones are gone. Tess' plan goes on without a hitch. HOWEVER, Michael followed the girls, saved them. The other glitch was that Tess couldn't kill Kyle, because she did care about him. So he kept remembering what happened.

Now for my theory on the Granolith. Maybe it was only a one way ticket home. That might not have been the important thing about it. Maybe it was built by ancient people on Antar. And they have been trying to decipher the book and writings from this ship for a long time. It could have become legend for the people, with a lot of folklore. For instance, what if the legends say the rightful king will return to his home on it? Or that when the Granolith returns to it's people a time of peace will follow. Who Knows! What the granolith is might not be as important as what it might signify. Kivar could want it so he can manipulate it and appear to be who he is not. Did that make sense?

As for the writings on the cave, my guess is that the injured shape shifter was trying to decipher the language. Afterall, he had 50 yrs to work on it. He may not have had a pencil and paper in that cave, so he used the walls of the cave.

The dupes...I do not think they were involved. Why? Because they would have wanted to return home instead of Is and Michael. The same with Nicholas... So I think Tess was alone on this one, maybe Kivar was helping. With that in mind, think back to when Max found Tess in NYC, she claimed they tried to mind rape her for info on the Granolith. However, what if Tess MW'ed them to think they were chasing her or something. That would explain why they aren't around when Max finds her. AND it explains why she "can't" remember anything, she's just avoiding the truth. And she wants to return home? I think she meant Antar, as in time to finish my plan and get us there. But when she realized that she said it, she added Home to roswell...a quick save.

Well, there ya all go...Let me know what you think!

~Sheri

Steph I think that when they say it can only be used once they mean it relocates wherever it lands so it can't be used twice from earth unless its sent back. My personal belief was that it was more like it beams people fro one location to another FTL by creating a ripple in space, but the machine still stays where is originally was. Apparently it does go with the person it beams like a spaceship which is utterly ridiculous because then FLiz couldn't have stayed in the same room FMax was in when it beamed him back in time but lets pretend it wouldn't have touched her space when it did leave. I think it does a lot more than just spacewarp. If you notice it rotated a really really big stone before it took off which btw means it was modeled after the BIGE'slightcones .

quote:Originally posted by cantbehrit:

Sheila Hubble, we haven't heard about her in a long time & she did resemble Liz a lot. So I'm really getting into this theory about Liz being a podster...maybe not an alien one necessarily.

Thats what I'saying my theory is she's a cloned human-human.

quote:
I still have a question though - what was wit the Thai food??

I think that Thai food is just really sweet&spicy kind of like tabasco and it was just to flow with the s like spicy/sweet tastes and Alex being mindcontrolled by an alien. Thats all.

RE: TEss being the sister I think they mean Kivar's not Maxs

But then the bomb would have blown up the "deciphered book" and crystal also. That is why I feel like it was a trap...from Leanna to The Dupes. If Leanna was the podsters other protector it would make perfect sense. She put the bomb and things there to draw the Dupes &/or Tess to the location. But of course our Liz figures everything out & it was them instead. So they get the "deciphered book" and crystal and think - this is it. But that was just too easy. Also, Liz was suspicious of Alex's death from the minute they found out. Killing Alex probably wasn't in the "plan" but it happened, so Liz is all snooping around - a thorn in Tess's side. She finds out about everything Alex was doing. Since she's smarter than Tess and The Dupes put together she get's there first. Also, Leanna got Alex to trust her, sending HER the copy of the book. Why wouldn't Leanna of sent it straight to Tess?

Cantbehrit

Actually, someone was saying that Tess being Max's sister - let me find the post and I'll quote it for you.

Cantbehrit

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Then someone went on to explain (if this theory was true) that the Momogram was saying....Max was sent with his bride (Liz), Tess (His sister), Michael - would then have been with Tess, & Isabel would be Max's second in command.

This was because Liz was standing in the pod chamber. I've always wondered if Liz was there for a reason, being a dreamer of course I do!

Cantbehrit

Yep, someone DID say that.. I think *my* exact response was.. T & Max = brother & sister..

Cantbehrit

[/B]

Well, I do not think that Leanna was in her right mind! I believe she was being used just like Alex. Tess couldn't afford to have the deciphered book sent to herself. And this would take the heat off of herself. Think about it, if Michael had not been there to throw the bomb, Liz and Maria would have died. Leanna knew that they were following her. We haven't seen the dupes in a long time. Also, is this high tech bomb could float in mid air I feel confident it could target certaint people and leave the crystal alone.

Just another thought!

~Sheri

Course, we've also been spec-ing that Tess is really Khivar's sister/lover/daughter/whatever, also!
~Tas

Just another thought!

~Sheri

Actually, I've been thinking about the bomb and the key being left in the warehouse. As I said before I think Leanna/Jennifer is really the other pod protector, and I think that the bomb and the (fake translation) was meant for Nicholas/Lonnie/Rath.

Why leave the key in the warehouse to be discovered by them? Why risk it blowing up?

I had a couple of thoughts....

They would have easily been able to disarm the bomb (as Michael did) but this way it *looked* like Leanna was trying to *protect* this information, thus making it look more valid.

Additionally, In EOTW FM talks about how they were able to harness the Granolith's power, modify it, and use it as a time machine. However, as we have discussed on this thread, a different crystal was used in EOTW. What if different crystals, or keys, cause the Granolith to do different things? What if the key that Leanna/Serena left for Tess actually transports the Granolith somewhere else other than Antar? Or transports it back to Antar, but back into the hands of Max's people - instead of Khivar. The possibilities here are endless, actually.

Or my other theory regarding this is that perhaps since Serena/Leanna wanted Nicholas/Lonnie/Rath to stumble onto the bomb, they would know how to de-activate it. Notice how the bomb is the same shape as the Granolith? Perhaps the key can also be inserted into the bomb to disarm it. Since it's alien technology, Serena would assume that Nicholas would know this, and the bomb was actually mean to protect this information from falling into the wrong hands. Perhaps if a stray human encountered it.

Again, I think Serena/Leanna never counted on Liz Parker being able to figure it all out!!!!

In any case....that's my two cents....

{~}:}

Why leave the key in the warehouse to be discovered by them? Why risk it blowing up?

I had a couple of thoughts....

They would have easily been able to disarm the bomb (as Michael did) but this way it *looked* like Leanna was trying to *protect* this information, thus making it look more valid.

Additionally, In EOTW FM talks about how they were able to harness the Granolith's power, modify it, and use it as a time machine. However, as we have discussed on this thread, a different crystal was used in EOTW. What if different crystals, or keys, cause the Granolith to do different things? What if the key that Leanna/Serena left for Tess actually transports the Granolith somewhere else other than Antar? Or transports it back to Antar, but back into the hands of Max's people - instead of Khivar. The possibilities here are endless, actually.

Again, I think Serena/Leanna never counted on Liz Parker being able to figure it all out!!!!

{~}:}

I like this theory, that the bomb was there to make it look more valid.

I also like the possiblity that Tess was sent somewhere else. I mean they really trusted that key alot & it just seemed too simple.

Like I said before, I think it was just too wierd about the book and key. I don't know, they just automatically accepted that there was no danger in it. Alex translated the book so where did the key come from? That is what they needed to think about. They just said, well here's the translation & here's the key. Noone said, "WHO put the key here? Who's Leanna/Jennifer and why should we think this is REALLY going to take us home. There was no time to thoroughly research the information & I know they knew that but they could of all been blown up or something. And Tess didn't look too confident inside that graniloth.

Liz knows about FM - noone else does. The graniloth HAS to be able to perform more than one mission & being that Max "Made a lot of enemies" by not handing over the graniloth to Khivar - why?? If it was just a "space ship" to take them home what would Khivar do with it?

Also, Liz is really quick - she figures everything out. So yes, I agree, Leanna/Jennifer couldn't have expected that.

One thing though...when Nesedo shapeshifted didn't he kill the person who's idenity he was taking?

Cantbehrit

All RBIers, Liz Mythologists, and Members of the I Know An Alien Club advised to head over there now.

Moderators may terminate this thread.
--maxcedo