There is never a dull moment on this thread – especially recently! We appreciate the new episodes to digest – especially with the refocus on Liz’s importance to the storyline! (Thank you JK and RM! ) Even though Heart of Mine, Cry Your Name, It’s Too Late & It’s Too Bad, Baby It’s You, Off The Menu and Departure have many inducing scenes, we have been provided tons of stuff to chat about and dissect! !! Plus – we have seen so many newbies joining into the discussion - which is wonderful!

Feedback is always welcome! Just PM me. I will let you know when I up-date the Introduction so you can head over there to read the new information when I add it in.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Background

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY!

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz's importance to the pod squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! (Especially lately!) We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember – NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome!

Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection

Consequence of the Connection - the Change?

Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really?

Granolith - How does it fit in?

Destiny - Liz and Max!

Follow Your Heart

Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

Chakras

Einstein's Light Cone

Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV

The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up!

The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things?

The Catalyst - Liz!

Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in?

Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run"

Hero Journey - Liz's Path

I wanted to add that I believe the events of the last few episodes (especially, HOM, CYN and ITL&ITB, and some of OTM and Departure) play right into Liz’s Hero Journey!

Grandma Claudia - the first connection?

I just wanted to add here that many of us believe the fact that the necklace Liz wore to the Prom had been Grandma Claudia’s is VERY SIGNIFICANT! Finally, a tie into GC, her Native American connection and Season 1! Now – if we could only figure out “what” the necklace was! Maybe this was a foreshadowing that GC will be the connection to the aliens that we always thought she was/is! And the computer guys from the UNM commenting that the alien symbols look Native American in origin – with Michael getting Season 1 flashbacks – was GREAT! But – unfortunately, we are going to have to wait until Season 3 to see if this all plays out!

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Don’t let the current state of affairs (pun intended!) concern you – Liz and Max are soulmates and lifebond! The Truth Is Out There! And Liz will find it! (Even Maria agrees with that!) And though Liz did figure it all out in time to “save the day” for the Pod Squad – the question of whether Max’s actions irreparably damaged their connection is still hanging out there – and how will Liz deal with not only the revelation that Max had a relationship with Tess, but that there is a baby out there that is the product of that relationship? Talk about bad choices!

Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection?

Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars!

Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Numbers keep cropping up that seem to fall into our 2, 3, 4, 5 groupings. Like the bus that Liz misses is 33_5, the bowling alley lane is 32, Max remembers 3 moons, Alex’s funeral and the concert is on 5/5 and the song at the end of Cry Your Name mentions the number 3! Also, the truck driver had 1 drink, 3 hours before! There is no way that this is just a coincidence! I will try to add as many of the numbers caught to the Intro that I can – but let’s just say that there has to be a meaning to the reoccurrence of the numbers – especially 5! Liz’s cell number is 505-555-0125! (and as Qfanny so intelligently pointed out .125 =1/8th – Ummm…! In BIY – Iz runs “5 or 6” miles now? And “Ray” was seen by his roommate at 4 am, they were the only 2 people around and they were only 5 feet away from each other. Alex’s dorm at UNM was in “Quad 4.” In Departure, the number 67 is prominent in Kyle’s room – any reference to the fact that after Alex’s death, there were 7 Scooby’s, but with Tess’ betrayal, there were actually only 6 true members of the Scooby Gang?

Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz?

Skins - What lies below the surface?

We keep wondering where Nicko disappeared to – and Lonnie, Rath and Ava for that matter. Is it just a matter of time before Kivar shows up? Many of us thought that Tess was up to her “old” tricks of mindwarping – or mind control as Liz so aptly asked about – but was Tess acting alone? Most of us think not! Tess’ actions were the result of a deal Harding made with Kivar 40 years ago, but they also resulted in the death of Alex. But why did she feel she needed to warp Alex into deciphering the book? I still believe there is more to it because of the elaborateness of the deception! And, was the sex/baby real? All indications point to it, BUT the mind control and the power of illusion could play in it all be a hoax to convince the Pod Squad they had to go home, and Tess ultimate “card” to convince Max to let her go without being harmed.

Shapeshifters - Are there more than one?

Remember – Harding and Nasedo and Tic Tac are NOT all one and the same shapeshifter! I still believe that Tic Tac is out there watching over Liz!

Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation

Mythology!

Dates

Dates seem to be of extreme interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research. If you find a date I’ve missed or see one that is wrong – PM me with the change and where you got your information! I’m always looking for new dates!

New dates added include:

6/21/1084 – Alex’s Birthdate listed on his grave stone (Departure)
1994 – Date the building in the Leanna and Alex picture was torn down (ITLITB)
12/9/2000 – Alex’s Departure for Sweden (ITLITB)
1/16/2001 – Date Leanna computer file/document created by Alex (ITLITB)
1/18/2001 – Date Alex and Leanna were supposed to be traveling to the Baltic Islands – where the mysterious building supposedly existed (ITLITB)
1/28/2001 – Alex’s Return from Sweden date (ITLITB)
4/27/2001 – Roswell Prom & Date Liz begins to start writing in her Journal again. (Heart of Mine)
4/29/2001 – Alex date of death listed on his grave stone (Departure)
5/3/2001 – Alex is killed. (Cry Your Name)
5/4/2001 – Kyle’s Birthday (18th?) (Cry Your Name)
5/5/2001 – Alex Whitman’s funeral (Cry Your Name)

In Summary

Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff, crew or UPN reads this or the Intro), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!"

To have the opportunity for a Season 3 on UPN is WONDERFUL, and this show has the potential to be another “X-files” with intimate relationships IF done right! BUT PLEASE – Get rid of the “90210” storylines – if we want a soap opera, we will turn on “Days of Our Lives”!

A couple of general "rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed – I can’t emphasize this enough as we move towards the season finale), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions/preview and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. If you know what a preview “really means” due to spoilers, please DON’T tell us – let us speculate – we will find out soon enough! And discussion of the new book “Loose Ends” is now okay that the season is over – though you might hold some stuff back for those of us who still have to read it! Thanks!

As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz whose life ended too soon - said - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)! Liz found the TRUTH, and will avenge his death! (Tess – beware – you have no idea what you have released in the B*#@h!

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

And a Question about Serena... What do you guys think her significance will be since there is no Granolith for her to help Liz figure out any more. Do you think they'll even introduce her character at all? Or will that be a part of the would-be future that Liz prevented from taking place?

Just some ponderings. Sorry if you guys have already discussed this.

Roswellrox

quote:Originally posted by Metaphysicalgrl:
Actually, I've been thinking about the bomb and the key being left in the warehouse. As I said before I think Leanna/Jennifer is really the other pod protector, and I think that the bomb and the (fake translation) was meant for Nicholas/Lonnie/Rath.
Why leave the key in the warehouse to be discovered by them? Why risk it blowing up?

I had a couple of thoughts....

They would have easily been able to disarm the bomb (as Michael did) but this way it *looked* like Leanna was trying to *protect* this information, thus making it look more valid.

Additionally, In EOTW FM talks about how they were able to harness the Granolith's power, modify it, and use it as a time machine. However, as we have discussed on this thread, a different crystal was used in EOTW. What if different crystals, or keys, cause the Granolith to do different things? What if the key that Leanna/Serena left for Tess actually transports the Granolith somewhere else other than Antar? Or transports it back to Antar, but back into the hands of Max's people - instead of Khivar. The possibilities here are endless, actually.

Again, I think Serena/Leanna never counted on Liz Parker being able to figure it all out!!!!

I like this theory, that the bomb was there to make it look more valid.

I also like the possiblity that Tess was sent somewhere else. I mean they really trusted that key alot & it just seemed too simple.

Like I said before, I think it was just too wierd about the book and key. I don't know, they just automatically accepted that there was no danger in it. Alex translated the book so where did the key come from? That is what they needed to think about. They just said, well here's the translation & here's the key. Noone said, "WHO put the key here? Who's Leanna/Jennifer and why should we think this is REALLY going to take us home. There was no time to thoroughly research the information & I know they knew that but they could of all been blown up or something. And Tess didn't look too confident inside that graniloth.

Liz knows about FM - noone else does. The graniloth HAS to be able to perform more than one mission & being that Max "Made a lot of enemies" by not handing over the graniloth to Khivar - why?? If it was just a "space ship" to take them home what would Khivar do with it?

Also, Liz is really quick - she figures everything out. So yes, I agree, Leanna/Jennifer couldn't have expected that.

One thing though...when Nesedo shapeshifted didn't he kill the person who's idenity he was taking?

Cantbehrit

I like this theory, that the bomb was there to make it look more valid.

I also like the possiblity that Tess was sent somewhere else. I mean they really trusted that key alot & it just seemed too simple.

Like I said before, I think it was just too wierd about the book and key. I don't know, they just automatically accepted that there was no danger in it. Alex translated the book so where did the key come from? That is what they needed to think about. They just said, well here's the translation & here's the key. Noone said, "WHO put the key here? Who's Leanna/Jennifer and why should we think this is REALLY going to take us home. There was no time to thoroughly research the information & I know they knew that but they could of all been blown up or something. And Tess didn't look too confident inside that graniloth.

Liz knows about FM - noone else does. The graniloth HAS to be able to perform more than one mission & being that Max "Made a lot of enemies" by not handing over the graniloth to Khivar - why?? If it was just a "space ship" to take them home what would Khivar do with it?

Also, Liz is really quick - she figures everything out. So yes, I agree, Leanna/Jennifer couldn't have expected that.

One thing though...when Nesedo shapeshifted didn't he kill the person who's idenity he was taking?

Cantbehrit

I thought the same thing about the bomb being there just to make it look real. And the thing about it being odd that they would just trust everything about the translation and the crystal... Well, I think we're supposed to attribute that to the urgency of getting Tess and the baby somewhere safe.

About Nasedo killing the people he shapeshifted into... The only one I can think of that he didn't kill is MAX!

Roswellrox

Maybe I'm wrong....

501 posts - finally a 4th star!

Cantbehrit

My mind has just been so confused lately I dont know how I am going to make it till next season.

Nacedo, the deal all of this is just CRAZY! I have been reading the threads and trying to process them them all. The thing that has been bugging me is why was that stupid mile 67 marker in the room with Tess? The only thing I can come up with when I rewatch MTTM is that is when Iz finds out she is not pregnant and that is excatly where Liz finds out that Nascedo is impersinating Max. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? It is driving me crazy!!! Is it about deception, Liz, Nacedo? Does it signif that T*** was also a killer? HELP!!

Actually, Rath wouldn’t betray Zan according to Courtney! But to have your sister and your wife betray you is bad enough!

Roswellrox

Edited to add: Max was mad at Nasedo in Skin and Bones when Nasedo suggested that they kill someone. I can't remember who. But Nasedo was always using underhanded ways to get things done.

You all are working at Lightspeed!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Maybe she WAS "manufactured" so to speak from Sheila somehow because Sheila was special too. But that would still make her human.

I dunno??? Maybe I'm off track here....

Cantbehrit

ITA! Why was the Granolith made to be SUCH a big deal at the summit if all it does is zip the aliens around from Antar to Earth? Either whomever planted the translation DIDN'T know about the other functionalities of the Granolith, which is why the translation simply said it was a "space ship" (or whatever it said) OR whomever planted the translation DID know about the other funtionalities and wanted to keep that a secret from the Pod Squad to go along with this so-called T/Nacedo/Khivar deal??

Really we know that only LIZ knows there is more to the Granolith than a mere space ship, but she hasn't told anyone about what FM told her. Of course, she's now destined to save the day YET again in S3 when this fact comes out!!

quote:And a Question about Serena... What do you guys think her significance will be since there is no Granolith for her to help Liz figure out any more. Do you think they'll even introduce her character at all? Or will that be a part of the would-be future that Liz prevented from taking place?

Personally, I think Serena's already been introduced (Leanna), but from here on I have a feeling she'll start to appear maybe as different "people" in the Pod Squad's lives. I think she's a good one - the other SS - here to protect the Pod Squad - she'll befriend Liz - and Liz will save the universe! Or.. something like that!

I have long subscribed to the theory that Liz is not an alien, BUT descended from a group of humans that have a common ancestor to the aliens on Antar. I know that is really out there, but in Season 1 (I know - not much continuity with Season 1 and 2, but .. optimism rules with me!)there were a number of references to ancient civilizations (Machu Pichu, Native Americans, etc.) that had writing/language/symbols similar to the alien writings. Even the guy in the computer lab at ULC thought they looked Native American - and I love the idea that the aliens have been visiting Earth for 1000's of years. Look at the Nazka (spelling?) Lines in Peru - one of the theories is that they were created by aliens. Now in real life, I don't know about that, BUT in the fictional world of Roswell, why not?! This would allow for a prior life or other previous generation connection that ties Liz and Max together here on Earth - totally separate from what is going on on Antar. Plus, it allows for the existance of a prophecy that could exist both here on Earth and on Antar of an alien King meeting an advanced human girl (Liz) who will be the KEY to their salvation - both Earth and Antar. Of course, the writers will do what the writers want based on ratings, etc. BUT I think this would be SOOO COOL, and a storyline that would tie so much together and allow for incredible future storylines.

SO that is my take on "Liz is not an alien, BUT..." I go into this in greater detail in the Intro!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!
I Shall

Come on, I know you're disillusioned, but come out of hiding and play with us.

I was just as frustrated as you, but since I've come up with some new theories that actually make sense, I'm feeling much better about things....

Come on, you know you want to. All the 'cool' kids are doing it.

Smiles,
{~}:}

Roswellrox

Here is my problem. IF Tess wanted to get back to Antar - according to the plan - she needed to get the translation of the book somehow. When Max gets the book done and can't decipher it, she doesn't seem up-set, but HOW was she going to conveniently obtain the translation ALex produced without it being obvious? Liz is the one the leads them to the translation - but how did Tess know that Liz would find the translation in time to get it back to the Pod Squad? Did Tess lay out the clues for Liz to follow knowing that she would find the transcription, but thinking that Liz would not be able to uncover the truth about ALex's death in time? That is the only explanation I can come up with, but it implies that Tess knew Liz would pursue the clues and be able to figure it all out. BUT the big problem I have was that some of the clues were set by Alex while NOT under the influence - and seem not possible for Tess to have been involved with - and there were some things that happened that Tess could not have anticipated - or figured they could have figured out so quickly. I'm in a total quandry about this - AND I'm going to have to take a vacation from Roswell or my brain will explode because a BIG part of me thinks that most of this was NOT Thought out by the writers (JK, et al) and continuity NOT being their strong suit, we will be left hanging with no explanation ever!

Okay - to work!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

We've always known that Liz is special. It would all tie in together so nicely because of the reason's you gave.

Cantbehrit

I wanted to address the Granolith. I still feel that the Granolith is priamrily a religous object. I think it probably feeds into their own beliefs. An example would be in the Bible in Revelations it talks about the mark of the beast signifying the beginning of the Tribulation. Well, what if the Granolith does the same for the people of Antar. The return of it may signify the start of a great war and then years of peace. (that is just an idea, could be anything) that could be enough to give the people hope to keep fighting Kivar. If Kivar could have found the Granolith first, he could use it against the people. OR if the podsters returned and were immediately handed over to Kivar it would give him legitimacy.

~Sheri

I know this post doesn't have too much to do with Liz's importance to the Alien Mythology but this is mainly a response to the Last post RoswellRox made. I posted this in 2 other threads and I thought it also aplied here as well.
(originally posted in CHADDs)
Well around the boards i've noticed lately that alot of us have been bringing up Buffy and Angel. This is so because Joss Whedon THINKS about the past eps, he looks at the importance of each of his characters and then decides where they should go from there. Yes, those shows have their CHADs too but not to the point where they negate whole episodes, let alone seasons. The passion we have for this show is soo profound because the show was truly inspiring. I could almost feel the love between Max and Liz the way they looked at eachother, the way they loved eachother. It was a fairytale with sci-fi mixed in a way that made almost everyone happy....But then came season 2. So much potential lost in Katims quest for the self contained eps. If he wants that then maybe he should have made x-files: the teenage years, because that's not what this show was about. It was about a beautiful love story which beautifully blended sci-fi. "I almost wish you didn't save me that day in the crashdown" Liz to Max
"I almost wish you didn't write this series just to screw with our minds and emotions for your own sick pleasure" April to JK
I feel you Enigmatic7777, your post actually inspired me to share this with the CHADDs. Maybe Katims will see this,and maybe he can see that noo, not everyone is buying into the 'Departure into Insanity' he's made the season finale and show. Maybe some kind of way this will help him to steer Roswell back into a show full of beautiful love stories/sci-fi that makes SENSE.

April~

I'm off like a prom dress..

Roswellrox

Yes - I watch Buffy - seen them all but one from season 1 - much to my husband and friends' humor! And I love the continuity on that show and the background stories that are so well plotted out! Look at Angel - which I'm less a fan of but still enjoy watching - and we know the background story that started on Buffy and has been carried out faithfully on Angel with the prophecy of him being important to the ultimate balance of power on the Earth. Even to the Books in the alien dimension that show pictures of a wolf ram and stage that when said fast connect to the evil law firm on the show - that is well thought out, cohesive writing and set design!! Sure there have been storylines that I don't like, and of course, most want Buffy and Angel to ultimately end up together, but all has been so well plotted that - well, we keep coming back for more! I can't think of any loose ends on either show that really bug me! Sure there are some, but mostly they are characters that aren't around - like where is Darla currently, etc.

My take on the Granolith - which I like the idea that they all mistaked the transporter for the Granolith, when in actuality Liz is the keeper of the Granolith - is that originally they planned to make it a Holy Grail type item - thus, the talk at the meeting by the leaders and FM's warning - but then didn't know how to develop the storyline around it, so resorted to making it solely a transporter/spaceship! Too Bad! I guess the question is what is left of the Pod Chamber after the lanch? What is in there still? Cause if it was solely a transporter - it did not have much room to transport many home, etc.....

Met - I'm spending too much time here as it is - but I do like your "mindwarp at the end of MITC" theory without any Kivar involvement. Though it has holes in it - they all do due to the lack of continuity of writing!

I would love to sit down with the Roswell writing staff for Season 3 with my timeline and the many theories that have been developed over the last 2 seasons and help them plot out a plausible backstory and future stories that would help tie up many of the loose ends and preserve their incredible fan base (that seem to have been alienated - pun intended - by much of what has transpired over the last season). AND I'm not talking just Dreamers here! I think many of the fan "groups" are disgruntled by the turn of events.

I grew up connected to the "Industry" - and though that is long ago and far away - I've, in my past life, been connected to some long running shows, one of which RM was connected to, though I have no direct connection to him at all - and wish only the best for Roswell - and would love to see it have such success! But True character development and continuity of storyline is essential to developing and maintaining that fan base that will carry you. Such disillusionment is not good at the end of the second season. Though I do believe that with an order for a full season the writers will have the opportunity to redeem themselves!

I have to tell you though - my parents - who have both been in the Industry - though are retired, find it hysterically funny that I'm coming to LA for the party! I guess it's because I took my visits to sets and locations when I was a kid for granted, and now I would love to have the inside connections I used to - but don't anymore! Oh well .....

So - I will join in - I do have thoughts on the theories - but I'm still frustrated a bit!

NOW I have to work - or at least eat lunch - then work! Later all!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

You're too funny!

Cantbehrit

Maybe I should be posting this on the Chad thread but with Roswell you never know if it's a chad or a clue. So I wanted to know what my fellow RBI's thought.
What was really confusing was when Liz asked Kyle if they were getting close to the Granolith, she mentioned seeing a mile marker and Kyle said we are almost there. Now Kyle is the only one of the three that has never been there, Maria is the only human who has seen the Granolith (S47) and Liz was in the pod chamber (Destiny). You would think Maria would have told Liz that the Granolith is in a room next to the pod chamber. So why ask Kyle and why did he know where it was?? One other thing. Liz knew where the entrance to the Granolith was, since when did it have an entrance? I thought they had to climb through one of the pods to get to it (Surprise). Liz might have remembered the entrance to the pod chamber but how did she know where the Granolith was? Like I said, clues or chads?
I so wanted the entrance to open when Liz was pounding on it. I guess if this would have happened we would known with out a doubt that Liz was one of the Royal Four.
If you think back the only podsters that have opened it have been Max(M2M), Michael(S47) and Iz(Surprise). Tess has never been there with out one of the three, we don't know if she could get in alone.
Harding was hiding in the wall in M2M, did he get in because Max had already opened it or was he there all along? Your saying, of course he can get in, he got to Tess when she broke out of the pod and he also set up the chamber. But are we sure it was Harding? Do we, with out any doubts believe Tess was ever in that pod.
What was also strange is that Nasedo didn't want the podsters there, he with angry with Tess for showing up with them. It seems like Tess had her own plans. I always wondered why Tess didn't take Max straight to the chamber when he was abusing her on M2M. What better way to convince him then to show it to him first thing. Oh know, not Tess. She says, "hold me Max and you will remember." Again Chads or clues? Will Jason Katims ever clean up these loose ends? You know I haven't got a clue, do you?

Evid

FUTURE MAX: Oh, we had a great wedding. You called Maria, Michael, Isabel, and Alex, and had them meet us halfway.

Why Liz don't call Kyle,they are friends?!?

Doe's this means Kyle left Roswell with Tess?
And Kyle was changed too.
And in the end TEOTW FMax have this very strange ...
FUTURE MAX: Maybe it's for the best. For you, too.
LIZ: What are you talking about?
FUTURE MAX: I saw you with Kyle. He's turning out to be a...a great guy.

Great guy? Maybe...or great danger?
-----------------
only one silly thougt....sry.

Cantbehrit

I don't know why I didn't bring this up here because I noticed this too. That she like "sensed" it was there...she had never been there before. She just "knew" - its turning out that she "knows" everything!

Cantbehrit

Roswellrox

I get what you are saying and I can totally picture it being that way. The whole alien/native american theme.

Meta, consider it, PLEASE! If Nicko needed to give Tess a brain-warp at the summit, wouldn't it make much more sense to get Max when he was vulnerable and more SUSCEPTIBLE to Tess's advances? Why not choreograph a Max/Liz breakup? Do you really think Khivar just got lucky this time??? -HH

OT, but Tas, is it odd that I thought of you when M&L were kissing because of the bottom lip thing I would bet money that 6throck already made an animation of that one!
haniczka - Could you perhaps post a screencap of the "ghost" in the Granolith? I didn't really see it when rewatching. Or could you just tell me exactly when to look for it?
Zero - I like the idea of a prophecy and Liz being the fulfillment of said prophecy. I just wish the DBook would have mentioned it. If it did, I just wonder if T*** would have had time to make note of the prophecy, realize that Liz was "the one", rewrite the book to suit her needs, and mindwarp everyone and their dogs all in the allotted time?

And can someone tell me what "ICAM" means?!

Edit: Whoops - I wanted to say I'm sorry this is sort of off topic, but I thought that maybe some would find it useful in weaving it into their theories about the show's direction - Meta? Alwaysdreamin'? Zero? etc. Sorry, forgive the lurker/newbie poster. I just didn't see anyone mention this.

Here is my problem. IF Tess wanted to get back to Antar - according to the plan - she needed to get the translation of the book somehow. When Max gets the book done and can't decipher it, she doesn't seem up-set, but HOW was she going to conveniently obtain the translation ALex produced without it being obvious? Liz is the one the leads them to the translation - but how did Tess know that Liz would find the translation in time to get it back to the Pod Squad? Did Tess lay out the clues for Liz to follow knowing that she would find the transcription, but thinking that Liz would not be able to uncover the truth about ALex's death in time? That is the only explanation I can come up with, but it implies that Tess knew Liz would pursue the clues and be able to figure it all out. BUT the big problem I have was that some of the clues were set by Alex while NOT under the influence - and seem not possible for Tess to have been involved with - and there were some things that happened that Tess could not have anticipated - or figured they could have figured out so quickly. I'm in a total quandry about this - AND I'm going to have to take a vacation from Roswell or my brain will explode because a BIG part of me thinks that most of this was NOT Thought out by the writers (JK, et al) and continuity NOT being their strong suit, we will be left hanging with no explanation ever! ..I think you're right about them not having thought it through, but I'll take a stab at a possible resolution:
Tess did her duty in getting pg and getting the book translated, but her human side was not so totally gung-ho on the trip back to Antar. So she hoped (not unlike many a pregnant unwed teen) that the baby would die and she'd still have Max, plus would have fullfilled her end of the promise Nasedo made.
quote:Originally posted by cantbehrit:
Has anyone ever copied this thread and mailed it to JK himself?? It would probably make life MUCH easier on him ...Well, Qfanny printed the Intro and some others gave it to Shiri. quote:Originally posted by aldebaran:
...Zero, perhaps you could add to the timeline that Kyle's mom left when he was six years old (I guess in 1984? probably not significant, but dates are dates )
...Hmmm...the podsters emerged the year before...
quote:Originally posted by haniczka:
glad to, aldebaran! Right before Michael tells Max "I can't go; home is here..." Max reaches up and touches the Granolith (like to "warm it up" one last time). When Max's hand touches the glass (?) mist appears. Watch it closely and it forms into a ghost of a skull with long hair. Then it turns inward and mists away. I really wish I knew about how to do screen-caps... -HHwill send note to Reggie. He has the equipment.
quote:Originally posted by Celtic Princess:...ITA with the people who think Liz "sensed" the Granolith. I thought it was odd.
Anyway, I was thinking. There are some people who are "sensitive" to the paranormal and have a better intuition then most people. ...You know who Liz reminds me of? Athena, the Goddess of Wisdom. Athena usually has a plan and is very smart. Sounds like Liz. ...[/B]I'll go with Athena = Liz, but I believe her "wisdom" is of the scientific, "empiracle evidenturary" sort. That is, she's very observant, and very good at mentally organizing the facts into theories.
quote:Originally posted by Vihmakass:
...There is message board in UPN site.
Maybe you can post LizMyth. intro and best pieces there.Yes, I visited last night and thought it might be a good way to show UPN what the fans are looking for.

quote:Originally posted by jennacakes:
[B]...someone ... said "ava" meant "like a bird". Then at Las Cruces they are at the Nelly Furtado (sp?) concert and what does she sing? I'm Like a Bird!! ...And then they had the Beatles "Black bird" song: "...Take these broken wings and learn to fly, all your life, you have always waited for this moment to arrive, black bird fly, black bird fly, into the light of a dark black night." How sad for Tess!

Aldebaran - I actually already had Kyle's mom's leaving in the timeline as 1989 because it was mentioned in Wipeout - but I've added that it could be 1990 depending on the year Kyle was born. I always assumed 1983, but Alex was listed as 1984 on his gravestone - soooo.. Anyway - Kyle was 6 when his mom left him and his dad - and Kyle gave his day Mr. Squiggles (?) to keep him company company!

Oh - the UPN board Idea is excellent!

Off to dinner - see you all later!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

April~

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

ok thats an interesting Q maybe the granolith itself could be a source of great power, even nuclear power like the little galaxy marbles in men in black and if used the wrong way could bring destruction of their world or the universe

maybe kivar needs it to control other worlds make him powerfull enough to make everyone scared of him or make him ruler of the universe

or with the gronolith uses it to find his real home and bring is race on to antar if he did in fact come form another planet.....

About Tess and the book. I think she had help in long-distance, long-term, mind-warping of this extent. (Alex, Leanna, H.S.Guidance Dept., etc.) either from the skins and/or Nicolas. She had the opportunity to collaberate with them while in NY when Rath abducted her. It loks like she explained her plans to them and was given the OK, which is why the podsters have been left alone ever since. If I was Max, I would have been suspicious of this.
Anyhow, once the book was translated, the book could have been transported to Roswell by Alex himself. We even saw Kyle's vision of Alex reciting it to her. She already had the book for months. She just needed to get pregnant before she could get Max to use it. The building with the laptop and alien bomb/devise was probably a set-up to kill Liz and give Max no reason to stay, or revenge. Tess could then make-up some story about how she got a translation. Michael stumbling in was unforeseen, but she played it cool, and almost made it.

Liz went to the pod chamber in "Destiny" so she remembered where it was. I just don't get how nobody noticed the silver lava stuff pooring out of the cliff. hmmm...
Anyway, I'm glad evil Tess is gone.

Also, about Sean. I'm thinking there's more to him than we're seeing. Devon Gummersall is an amazing actor who has played some pretty tragic characters (ewww Brian Krakow making out with Liz!!!) and I think that he was cast as Sean on purpose. If you're casting for a minor character why go with someone who already has an extensive resume of some pretty hefty roles? I think, I hope we get to learn more in season 3.

One last thing, send Jason Katims a copy of this thread and the CHAD list !!

TVPooh, glad you mentioned Sean, I just rewatched the second half of CYN to study Tess some more, and about the cut picture: remember Maria saying in the next ep that her exacto knife was missing? Well, we pretty much agreed earlier that Sean would have had access to it, so maybe ***he*** cut Alex's head out of the picture to leave a clue that Alex was losing it mentally. Maybe as an ex-con he just didn't want to act like he knew too much. Or it could have just been that Alex took Maria's knife. But I don't think they would have had Liz kiss Sean in Departure if it wasn't going to be significant next season. But that bothers me too, because they weren't sure there was going to be a next season when they filmed it. But they could have had 2 versions ready to go. The M/M after-glow scene seemed really chopped--kind of like cold chicken liver salad.

from Metaphysicalgrl:
"Guys! I've finally found a theory that I can live with for the summer.The damn boards have been down all day, so I had to sit on this. Aaargh. Let me know what you think. This is the only theory that makes sense on multiple levels.
OK, here goes.... It was Nicholas (...)"

Exactly what I've been thinking. It can explain everything, smoothly. OK, that makes two of us, so it MUST be true!

I've a major rant coming, on why Tess isn't Evil. I'll be posting it by and by; I've been busy with RL (work downsizing, and me near the bottom of the totem pole). Plus the CHADs are working on doing a thread a day, shoveling this carp from Departure. We've decided: TEOTW= Throw Everything Out The Window!

quote:
"You know, I'm really reaching here, but the point is, anything is possible. I for one would love to see Liz as the Granolith (even if it *is* far fetched) because that would put her in danger, and Max would have to save her....This would also make Liz's importance to the alien mythology very important!"

Ok. Where do we stick the Key in Liz? Is the Key the right size and shape? And why did we see the Key stuck in the Machine, instead of Liz, in TEOTW?

from Qfanny:
"I agree that it was wrong for M/M to have sex. But I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to their youth and their intense relationship... Personally, I believe that their bed scene in ID said loads more about how much they do care about each other than what I saw in Departure.

As far a Tess/Max - we'll I keep telling myself it's okay, they were married, but it still makes me puke.

What I really liked in season one is the writers didn't resort to the bump and grind to develop relationships."

Amen to that! If we wanted b&g, we'd get the Playboy channel or something. Tess & Max... well, you could argue that "Till death us do part" has been fulfilled. I do think love should have something to do with it; M&M have that, but M&T don't. At least not the reciprocal kind. (No, not that.. Cheeze...) It still bugs me that Michael didn't discuss that he was going away, and let Maria make an informed choice.

From Tasyfa:
"I still want to know how Leanna fits into the equation. She may be human, but I don't think she was uninvolved. Her timing and everything was a little too neat. I keep running into the idea of her being Serena and then I can't think of anything else
~Tas"

Simple. Just as Alex was mindwarped into playing "Ray", "Leanna" is also the product of a mindwarp. She isn't being used to do as much, but she is covering the tracks of The Mindwarper: hence the (bogus) rental property & computer. It was all a trap, set recently by "Leanna" to remove Liz & Maria. Right, Metaphysicalgr?"

quote:
"Question: Valenti was supposed to give the videotape to the Evans after he was sure M/M/I/T were gone. Presumably he would have noticed the disturbance b/c he was looking for it. So, did he give it to them? Did they watch it?"

First thing, S3 Ep. 1, Isabel turns to Max and says, "Max! The tape!" Maria hands Isabel her cell phone, and Isabel calls SV to stop the delivery. SV may have been home, eating breakfast; or ringing the Evans' doorbell. Covered.

Ok. Where do we stick the Key in Liz? Is the Key the right size and shape? And why did we see the Key stuck in the Machine, instead of Liz, in TEOTW?

He he...now you don't really want me answer that one do you? {mental note to self: take head out of the gutter}

Like I said before when I presented that theory, my intention was to put it out there that how do we know for sure *what* the Granolith really is. What if what we think is the Granolith is really just a machine, and the Granolith is something else entirely, maybe something intangible. Who knows.

Hey, I'm sure that's not going to happen, but I figured I would put it out there for discussion.

The point is, do we really still care?

{~}:}

p.s. Zero Your question about Tess and the Destiny book has really stumped me. You are right, because how WOULD she explain having the translation to the others, when apparently she didn't have it previously. "Hey guys, guess what I found under a rock." Or "Hey guys, guess what someone mailed to me?" I really don't know if there's an answer to that one, but I'm beginning to share your lack of enthusiasm about things, because I honestly believe also that the writers were flying from the seat of their pants. I am happy with my previous theories, because at least they make *some* sense (especially the one about Leanna and the mindwarp not being real), but who knows where they're going to take this story. I just hope it's not "Gee, where's the royal heir" all season. Snore.

I realize why no one wants to comment on my theory that the DB could be fake (being it directly came from a LIAR & BETRAYER/KILLER aka Tess) -- because it would open up a world of questions. BUT - not really!! (please note: I believe Tess to be a two-dimensional character who has an agenda/ who wants to be loved/ who started off being unfeeling but turned "human".) OK, ok - she could be three-dimensional.

The DB has only recently been put in the mix. All the info we got this season is momo-gram related, or info from Nick/CW/Dupes/Courtney. THE BOOK JUST CAME INTO PLAY!!

I think there is a few of you who feel that the DB was served on a platter to the pod squad - telling them how to get home. How convenient!!! The translation fell into L/M/M's laps rather conviently & quickly. Liz recognizing Leanna, who looked right at them, amongst a huge crowd on a campus ---- was it a matter of being in the right place @ the right time or was it a set up???

Why wouldn't Leanna/Jennifer hide any info pretaining the warehouse location when she left town?? The roommate stated that she got a call first thing in the AM, and she had to leave town. hmmmmmmm

All of you who said that the bomb impacted the significance of the info on the computer -- ICAM. ALDEBARAN: "I couldn't agree more"

This is possibly another CHAD: why wouldn't Lonnie be able to read the book -- she remembered her life on Antar. L/R sure knew a lot about the whole situation regarding the war, placement of the planets, emmissaries, etc.

How was Alex able to decode the book without the book?? It was in the chamber in BIY. The pod squad should have wondered HOW Alex had the book and/or WHO gave it to him. Only the four can get in the chamber!! What other source would he have been using to decipher the codes??

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the translation has to be fake!! The book may not have even played a part with the whole Alex scheme of things. In BIY, Tess didn't seemed interested or encouraging that they needed to decipher it!! Was it b/c she knew the translation that she wanted was soon coming??

OK - I thought I was enjoying these discussions, but the more I mull over theory after theory, question after question --- the CHADS are driving me crazy!!

One last thought (sorry for the essay, again!!) "the mockey with two backs" comment from Lonnie. I'm looking at that scene in a new light -- L/R could have been luring Max into encouraging him to do this. They were sure. . . . um . . . . pumping it up to be something great -- "ALIEN sex" and all. Could L/R know that Tess' plan is to bear Max's child?? I now see the Tess/Ava switch concept. Tess was part of the NY4 - Nacedo being their "protector".

I hope to hear some feed back.

Cantbehrit

Good night RBIs!

Thanks Shapeshifter for helping me with my avatar.

MLP

So, I'm thinking MAYBE she didn't know, that Alex, in his moments of lucidity, did in fact bond with Leanna, and she was helping him hide the book.

~Sheri

jennacakes Leanna=Ava, now there's something I don't think anyone else has speculated! Great idea!

Palomino Nice to see you. Congrats on the puppy, BTW

aldebaran It doesn't surprise me that you thought of me, I thought of 6throck!

K, the swirly galaxy symbol can be made out on the top of the spaceship here. It's a little fuzzy, but discernable.

Any ideas on what that could mean? Besides my favourite--that the chamber may have turned into a ship but the granolith didn't go anywhere!
~Tas

SciFiMom, yes, we think alike! How could we survive the summer without plot holes to go swimming in?

I posted this on the CHADs (so the quotes are from there), but it really fits here with our discussions:

quote:Originally posted by Lameduck:
...Now I'm going to jump back to the pilot. When Liz is showing Jen and Larry the fake picture of the alien, you hear in the background "I tell you, we have to get rid of her!" from the two guys in the back, one of whom shoots Liz...Lameduck, when Qfanny went to LA, she had opportunity to talk to Kevin Kelly Brown, and he told her that the shooters were stunt men who were simply directed to "argue," that they were adlibing. While this info was quite a blow to our theories based on the supposed signifcance of this comment, we continued to hope that its infamy among Roswellian (the TV show) Mythologists
might inspire JK to use the clip in a future ep and give it credibility. That has not yet happened, but Greg Cox's book, Loose Ends actually takes that line and runs with it.

And about Atherton, the possible human cell phone: assuming Nasedo killed him (post-Departure I am letting go of my hopes that he was just trying to heal him of a heart attack/stroke like Max in the Metz books ***sigh***), and assuming Nasedo killed Hubble's wife, and taking Nasedo's line about killing everyone who knew about Cadmium X as indicative of his motives for killing--which would explain why he killed Hank after Michael's display of powers assuming that TicTac and Nasedo are the same which Katims indicates in the Season 1 primer, but of course could change his mind about--why would he have killed Atherton and Sheila unless they knew too much AND were likely to be hostile? That is, why were they likely to be hostile? I suppose it could have just been the McCarthyist mind set of the 50's, or fear of Monsters.

quote:Originally posted by Myrrhine:
...3. The fact that she looks like Tess COULD come in handy in any schemes to infiltrate Kivar's court and reclaim Max's son (i assume they have something like this in mind?)

I don't know, I just think she could come in handy. I think I'll have my bowl of Kix in the parking lot this morning...

what do you all think? Ooo, I hadn't thought of that one! Can I join you with my Shredded Wheat, canned peaches, and Vitasoy Creamy Original? I think Mr. Evans is already out there with his mustard sauce and cell phone.

What if Nasedo was a DOUBLE AGENT and he was deliberately sending back the wrong "bride" to screw up Kivar's plans?

I also like the idea that the granolith was not neccesarily sent back with the ship. My immediate thought was that the granolith may have only been controlling the ship's launch.

I know these ideas don't sound very logical, but I keep thinking why Nasedo, in his last moments, went to Max after all? Did he have a change of heart? Was he hoping to be able to say more?

On the other hand, if he really didn't know where they were, that would mean that whoever had placed them there was either dead or terribly irresponsible.

BTW: if I was a SSer, I would be rarther disappointed with Max. He was not very leader-like this year. Let's hope that was because of Tess, being off-balance after Liz left him, or because of Pierce's torture, and that Zan/Max will be much more capable next season.

As for the back in time theory, wow! That would actually make a lot of sense, and it would also allow for reasonably subtle sci-fi to permeate the season without us being beaten over the head with it à la HC! Course, it would mean that the baby is real, and I can't shake the idea that it's not. Not just b/c I don't want it to be, though there is that But it was just TOO convenient. Every time Max wavered away from Tess, something happened with the baby. He's too screwed up right now to even notice the ludicrous timing of all of the "distress" problems, but they're quite clear to me. Now, it could be that it's only the illness that Tess was faking, and not the entire pregnancy, but somehow that doesn't seem too logical. I feel like it's an all or nothing prospect--either Tess really is pregnant and the baby's ill, or the whole thing was a sham.
~Tas

Better: how about if she sensed Max ? Remember, she found him from almost a continent away in MitC.

And about asking Kyle if they were almost there: They probably told him it was "just off the highway at Milepost 34". If all Liz saw was the milepost, not the number, she could have been asking if they were near Milepost 34 yet.

The owls are not what they seem...

My theory:

That Zan/Max sent her to earth secretly befor he died, maybe she was killed. Anyways no one on the planet knew that she was sent here, not even the other podesters. So maybe Tess was just a ploy and all of her memories are really Liz's. Just a thought what do you think?

I still think that the granilith is still here, they said it could only be used once, because there was only one space ship, so it could only turn it on once.

What if Tess IS pregnant but the baby is another alien's. We KNOW the skins can not survive on earth, our atmoshpere poisons them, sound familiar?? That would mean Tess could be further along in her pregnancy. She tricked Max to sleep with her so it would look like it was his baby. And *bingo* she has a reason to force them to Antar, fulfilling the plan Nacedo made. Max made a connection with a baby but not necesarily his baby.

~Sheri

What if Tess IS pregnant but the baby is another alien's. We KNOW the skins can not survive on earth, our atmoshpere poisons them, sound familiar?? That would mean Tess could be further along in her pregnancy. She tricked Max to sleep with her so it would look like it was his baby. And *bingo* she has a reason to force them to Antar, fulfilling the plan Nacedo made. Max made a connection with a baby but not necesarily his baby.

~Sheri

I like this idea! It makes sense, especially considering how quickly Tess became pregnant. She could even have mindwarped the sex, so it wasn't real! Tess could've had sex with Nicolas...though that's a little weird since he's like 14.

I think this jives with the theory that Tess isn't really one of the royal four, and that she's a plant of some sort.

I really think Liz is an alien! I just watched The Convention, and I payed close attention to the part with Sheila Hubble. I don't know if my idea has been addressed (probably has ) but here goes:

Sheila Hubble was actually an alien or alien/human hybrid who came to earth way before the other podsters to sort of scope it out and protect them. That's the reason Hubble "saw fireworks", because of her alien connection. He was actually getting flashes. Nasedo, who was actually EVIL and planted Tess, killed Sheila so he could assume the role of protector when the R4 came down. Liz was created from Sheila's DNA, and planted in Mrs. Parker, to protect her? Maybe Sheila was her mom on Antar.

Oh...now I've lost it. How do you guys do this without getting confused?

I know these ideas don't sound very logical, but I keep thinking why Nasedo, in his last moments, went to Max after all? Did he have a change of heart? Was he hoping to be able to say more?

I'm also perplexed why Nasedo seemingly - on his last few breaths - dragged his bloody self to Max's place to *warn* him about the Skins (IF Nas betrayed Max 40 years ago). I'm not entirely certain it was because of a "change of heart"... did Nas even have a heart to change?

Perhaps it was Tess herself who made the deal and just blamed it on Nasedo, it's not like Nasedo could refute the accusation anyway (so Max wouldn't be any more furious with her then he already was)? There was no deal Whitaker was aware of at that point, which is why she killed Nas. The deal didn't come about until later (WO? MITC?)?

Or, as Meta speculated earlier, there was NEVER any deal. It was all a mindwarp by Nikolas planted in Tess' head?

**********

I don't know if this has already been brought up in here... but is anyone else wondering if there are/were supposed to be SECURITY CAMERAS in the Roswell Observatory? The M/T stuff was filmed in the Griffith Park Observatory (which I'm pretty sure has cameras everywhere. Not like I was checking or anything the last time I was there - but there is some pretty expensive/priceless stuff in there and it would really surprise me if it *didn't* have some huge security precautions). If we're to assume the Ros Observatory was just as *packed* with all these state-of-the-art and space artifact goodies... then the Ros Observatory ALSO probably not only had security cameras but probably a really whizbang security system to boot. I presume, if the observatory was closed when Max *broke in*... he used his powers to disable the security system (which is stretching, but ROS has a tendency to do that), but the cameras?

I'd find it amusing if, some time next season, Liz and Max decide to investigate - for their own peace of mind as well as discovering the truth - if Max really did have sex with Tess that night in the Observatory or it was all a mindwarp. Liz informs Max that the Ros Observatory has security cameras - if anything, they need to get their hands on that footage to get rid of it (so no one discovers what M/T were *supposedly* doing, obviously no one has yet or they'd be in trouble). They get their hands on the security footage from that night. Holding their breath (this might also determine the future of their relationship - although Liz tells Max she'll forgive him, it's a hard pill to swallow believing the man you love slept with / empregnated the murderer of one of your closest friends). They watch the entire tape and realize neither Max OR Tess were in the observatory that night... to top it off, a security guard repeatedly passed over the place where M/T were *supposedly* doing the nasty. Max DID NOT have sex with Tess... hence the baby either doesn't exist or IS NOT Max's.

Now this could be when Max has an "Alex-type" breakdown coming out of the mindwarp. It might be worse for Max, depending how strong this mindwarp had to be and presumedly it had to be pretty strong (since he never managed to break out of it Season 2). Tess would have had to mindwarp the ENTIRE scenario of the Observatory and a little bit before. As we know from Alex, frequent mindwarping weakens the mindwarpee's mind. If Tess [or someone else] was mindwarping Max *beforehand*, his mind would already be very susceptible to the warp. This might also explain Max's rather erratic behavior the last few eps of S2, he was seemingly NOT himself. Max was going *crazy* basically from the warp (not unlike Alex), almost as if he was a different person. Alex also seemingly was a *different person* when he came back from Sweden, but not as drastic as Max's literal mood swings because, unlike Max, Alex doesn't have a hybrid mind that's less susceptible to the warp? Max was fighting the warp, which was coming out in his behavior (abusive to both Isabel and Liz, he doesn't know who to trust - or the warp was forcing him to abuse them)? While Alex was "different" but not necessarily in a negative way until the Thai food came, a trigger which awakened him? Max just needs a trigger to get him out of the warp (the security footage from the Ros Observatory that night)?

I'd find it even more amusing if Max was actually in Bob OUTSIDE of the Observatory the whole night.... with Tess. Max went over to Tess' after having that blow up with Liz about Sweden... he picks T up to go to the Observatory (NOT with the intention to sleep with her, just to have someone to talk to). Tess uses her powers to knock him out. While Max is unconscious (and more susceptible to the mindwarp), Tess erases the memories of all the events that happened just after Max argued with Liz, planting new memories. She's continuously warping him all night. Max doesn't actually regain consciousness until WARPED Max believes he's taking Tess home, once Warped Max gets into Bob.... this is when Tess wakes Max up. Max doesn't catch on it's a mindwarp and believes that he's in Bob to take Tess home now after having sex with her in the Observatory. In reality, Max was leaning against Bob's steering wheel all night getting mindwarped by Tess in the Observatory parking lot (he never touched her, until they got to casa Valenti where he kissed her [of which he looked uncomfortable about it afterwards, almost confused]).

Melodious

From Departure (end)

S1 poster. Think it means anything, or is that just wishful thinking?
~Tas

Okay little girls, time for 2 things...
Thing one:
The Disposable Granolith: I firmly believe that Liz spoke the mind of Jason Katims and the stable of writers when she said, "I don't care about the damn Granolith!" Not only did it rob her of 14 years of marital bliss with Jason Behr, but it has been a real albatross around the necks of the writers ever since its introduction, from its cheesey sounding name, to its questionable technology, to its inexplicable origins and method of arrival on earth and who hid it and who knew about it and on and on ad nauseum. Lets get on with the story, please. It is finished.

Now, thing 2:
The pregnancy--or, perhaps we should call it the New Albatross? I'm afraid that with Max's final line in Season 2, "I need to save my son," we are locked into a Season 3 Quest of Searching For Son. Recall when Tess looked in the mirror (and mirrors in Roswell always tell the truth--um, except to Nicholas) she said, "OMG" in a way that we are not to mistake for anything other than that she is indeed pregnant, that it is momentous, that she is surprised, and that she's not entirely displeased. Based on Nasedo's queries to Max about mating rituals at the beginning of Season 2, I believe that Tess is supposed to be speaking truth when she says that getting pregnant was Nasedo's agenda as per Kvar.

Okay, I'm done ranting.

What if Tess IS pregnant but the baby is another alien's. We KNOW the skins can not survive on earth, our atmoshpere poisons them, sound familiar?? That would mean Tess could be further along in her pregnancy. She tricked Max to sleep with her so it would look like it was his baby. And *bingo* she has a reason to force them to Antar, fulfilling the plan Nacedo made. Max made a connection with a baby but not necesarily his baby.

~Sheri

SciFiMom: I was thinking the same thing. Remember when Max was telling Liz they had to go back to Antar for the baby. He first said "TESS'S BABY." He might have been having a hard time clamining the baby in front of Liz but their might be more to this statement.

Tas: Hey girl I'm loving all your Fics get back over to Jen's and post more. Tas ITA with you about the baby being everything or nothing at all.

Max had such an negative response to the hot alien sex, he made it sound so shoddy when he was talking to Michael. I would hate for the baby to be real for this reason alone. Unwanted pregnancies rarely have a happy out come. Not to mention how sick it would be using a child as a barganing tool with it's mother as the Barter. No I truely hope that Katims will not take the show in this direction. It's so sad that he has already taken this far.

Evid

Re: Niko fathering a child. Since the Skins are actually beings encased within living spacesuits, I'd think it would be impossible for them to procreate while still in their Skin. It did occur to me that maybe Tess has MWd Kyle into forgetting something else? Maybe they did trim her lamp at some point and she took advantage of the situation. Just a crazy thought!
~Tas

Okay, I'm done ranting.

Actually, I always saw this as Tess practicing what she was going to say. Maybe my friends & I were complete whack jobs, but when I was in high school we would practice "important" conversations in front of the mirror, to make sure it all sounded right and we had the right expressions on our faces, etc. That's another possible explanation for her actions here

I agree that I think JK has done away with the granolith b/c no one knows what else to do with it. Personally, this annoys me more than ANYTHING else, and I do mean anything!
~Tas

What if Tess IS pregnant but the baby is another alien's. We KNOW the skins can not survive on earth, our atmoshpere poisons them, sound familiar?? That would mean Tess could be further along in her pregnancy. She tricked Max to sleep with her so it would look like it was his baby. And *bingo* she has a reason to force them to Antar, fulfilling the plan Nacedo made. Max made a connection with a baby but not necesarily his baby.

~Sheri

What if it's Nick's baby? Tess also might be loyal to Kivar so she wanted to impress him by giving him what he wanted (a baby)

Evid Thank you I updated 3/4 this week already!

AlwaysDreaming I'm guessing that Tess didn't MW Liz into not loving Max b/c it would have been a constant struggle to keep the MW active. Alex, Amy & Kyle all had triggers that allowed them to break out; Liz would be triggered every time she saw Max, probably!!
~Tas

I also wondered about FMax ... if he had not learned to use the granolith via The Book, then how did he get hold of the crystal key? He still had the granolith, but aliens were attacking and destroying Earth. If our Max does not have the key or the granolith, what does this say about the fate of Earth? Say our prayers now?

The KEY LOOKED DIFFERENT than the one FMax had used. Did anyone else notice the key found by L/M/M seemed to have more fracture lines in it that the one FMax used? What if it was a different key, and the other one is still out there?

Odd thought as I was typing this ... I envisioned "Roswell" writers skipping through the studio lot waving their arms and looking skyward as they sing like the scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz, "If we only had a brain!"

Where is Tic-tac?
Sleeping with the red herrings.

[/B]

True

I hate thinking this, but to reconcile the differences and what we know (knew) about the granolith, I would have to say that the EOTW and particularly Future Max was a Tess mindwarp.

Pity really, because I really liked the idea that Liz was special and could not be mindwarped.

I hate thinking this, but to reconcile the differences and what we know (knew) about the granolith, I would have to say that the EOTW and particularly Future Max was a Tess mindwarp.

Pity really, because I really liked the idea that Liz was special and could not be mindwarped.

Hmmmmmm! I really don't think so because of what happened at the begining of the episode. And also, FMax showed Liz the future. Or told her about or whatever. But that would be great if it was.

Milenia

TESS 2 DAYS PREGNANT...

SIX MONTHS LATER...

BabyMax: "Da-da!"

Michael: "Oooooooh! SHOTDOWN!"

RD Too funny.
~Tas

but then again if it is max's baby wouldnt kivar want to distroy it bacause its the next generation of max's royal line or it could be kivars heir as well

plus maybe they never met the dupes and ava in the last future so ava could be important

images fom crashdown.com

Assumption: K'var has been and continues to fight for power over the 5 planets.

There is heavy evidence to believe that bloodlines determine the succession of power. Really folks, protoMax seems to be some sort of fuedal leader over his people, but oh well...

K'var needs some sort of blood connection to legitimately claim Zan's deposed throne. I presume several ways he could do this:

Marry Queen after King's death.

If Ava was K'var's daughter, and Ava and Zan produced an heir, then this may be enough on Twilo/Antar to give him a foothold.

Produce a child with Vilondra.

I believe that K'var has done or tried to do all three. Remember, Vilondra was a traitor to her family. I cannot think of anything more traitorous than starting a relationship with one's stepfather...

K'var is desperate for this legitmate claim so he know longer has to rely on the marrital right from the Queen. And it could be that K'var is in his final years and the only way he's bloodline can continue to rule is through this "real" heir.

If Ava/Tess is his daughter, and she is really pregnant with Zan's son, then the problem is solved for K'var.

K'var attempted at least two different plans in the podster's new existance to give him the heir he needs.

Plan a:
Skins return Vilondra.

Plan b:
Nasedo deal.

There doesn't seem to be any communication between the two plans. K'var probably didn't know which one would work the best, and had them operate independantly from each other until it was obvious one plan was making more progress than the other. I assert that Niko determined this for K'var during the summit in NYC.

Liz has been, and will continue to be, the factor that K'var has not thought of or planned on. There is something otherworldly about Max's instinct to protect Liz. He needs her in his life. Liz, as season two has shown, doesn't need Max in the same way Max needs her.

I realize that these are just thoughts, but somehow and somewhere along the lines I came to this conclusion that K'var must have somesort of relationship to the Royals to usurp the throne. I believe Ava and King's death was critical to the changing of power.

I still feel like the divide and conquer theory is in play here. In Four Square, Liz told Max "We don't know what she will do if she gets you alone". Maybe we just saw what she is capable of doing. The only difference being that in 4S Liz and Max were together, but they weren't in the S2 shows.This goes with Liz's importance to Max and the pod squad.

Any thoughts?

Maybe he might have remembered it, maybe not If Tess had sex with Kyle, it would seem to me that it would be something she would definitely NOT want him to remember (Kyle remembers the sex = gets back to Max = [depending on when M discovered this info] Max questions the paternity of the baby). Hence she could have taken extra precautions to make sure he didn't remember the sex (erase the sex then mindwarp Kyle to make him see her as a sister as opposed to a "lover"). Kyle seeing her as a sister (via mindwarp[s]) would have put in conflict any lingering romantic feelings he had for Tess (and/or the *memories* Tess knew he'd start having because she knows her mindwarps don't last forever)... so maybe he has been remembering the sex this whole time, but brushes it off as (very vivid) fantasies. Sick fantasies at that if he ALSO has *brotherly* feelings towards Tess (convenient). Sick fantasies he doesn't want anyone to know about because he's ashamed to feel that way for his "sister". IMO, these "brotherly" feelings almost seemed to confuse him once he "admitted" them to Malamud during prom (confused me too considering I *was* a Rebounder at one point).

Was Tess/Kyle's wicked romantic chemistry just a ploy by the writers to throw us off or were we REALLY supposed to see that T/K were hot for each other (EOTW, WAF, etc) and it's a clue? A 17-yr-old hormonally charged male who has "Busty Biker Babes" under his bed (Buddha boy stuff aside) ISN'T going to sleep with a gorgeous blonde who walks around the house in his football jersey and nothing else?? Granted, I might be slapping a stereotypical label on 17-yr-old males everywhere unfairly... but it's Kyle Valenti. And we know from EOTW, HARVEST (etc), Tess seems to take sex pretty lightly. Tess seduces Kyle, Kyle willingly has sex with her, gets her pregnant... Tess immediately erases the sex from his memory. Begins to warp him to see her as a sister.

The question is WHY would she do this? Is a mindwarp similar to hypnosis (as you can't hypnotize someone to do extremes they would never do while conscious? Kill someone, have sex with someone they didn't want to have sex with, etc etc?). Tess is powerful but she simply CAN'T mindwarp Max to have sex with her (his hybrid mind is stronger than human Alex's and Kyle's which also compounds the problem - he's more resistant). In any case, Tess thought she'd never get Max to actually sleep with her or it would take more time than she thought she had... so (out of desperation / time constraints?) she has sex with Kyle and got pregnant by him and planted false sex memories in Max's head (making Tess' need to GET OFF Earth more understandable due to the warps and their duration? Kyle would have eventually remember the sex? Max would have eventually caught on to the warp?)? OR Was HYBRID Tess simply not be able to procreate with HYBRID Max? HYBRIDS are physically incompatible with each other (to a certain extent - perhaps they can have sex [ex/ Lonnie and Rath] but can't actually procreate)... and Tess knew it? Hybrids can only procreate with humans? Hence Tess had to get pregnant by a human (Kyle) and pass it off as Max's kid (so she could at least get home)? Which could be why the "sex" in ITL is fake... Tess couldn't endanger the life of the child *already* in her womb by having sex with another hybrid?

Kyle only becomes aware Tess HAS mindwarped him in DEPARTURE (which is a great surprise to him ["How could you?! I took you into my home!" etc etc] - so he wasn't suspecting it before) - she made him forget Alex's murder (but remembered via the mirror trigger). He could start to think back over things, and he eventually starts questioning if he really did have sex with her or not, the fantasies aren't fantasies but actual memories, coming out in fragments. Which feelings are the REAL feelings... the brotherly or the romantic? Did Tess mindwarp me to MAKE me see her as a sister? I DID have romantic feelings for her once and it almost seemed like they were here today gone tomorrow?? Did I have sex with her?? Could the baby she's pregnant with be mine and not Max's??

Melodious

I was thinking if K'var was not overly concerned with Liz's connection to Max before, he will once Tess blames her for the failed mission. I could just hear her now, "but K'var, it was all her fault, we've got to get rid of her," sound familer. I can't believe how well this line fits into the whole scheme of things. How could the writers not use it, or will they? IF K'var now has the Granolith will he use it for time travel? Will this line that was said in the Pilot now come into play? I know that Katims said it was just a line the actor through out but I just don't buy it. I really think GraceKel's daughter found Katims hidden card and he is not ready to show it to us, yet.

Off the subject here but don't you think everyone is going to freak out if Ava shows up? How will they know that it's Ava and not Tess pretending to be Ava? I'll give you one guess, yes Liz. She will more then likely be the one who contacts Ava to complete the unit and cover up Tess's disapearance.
If Liz only knew Ava was around during the Future Max visit she might have asked her to help back then. I'm sure Liz will tell the gang that it is Ava because she has a good heart, she sees no evil within, Liz trusts her. I know what you're thinking, what if Max starts wanting Ava or visa-versa? I don't think this will ever happen. I always believed that Ava is one of the Royal Four and she has the same beliefs. She will follow her heart. I do however think Kyle will be one happy guy next season, he might even get his lamp trimed.

Evid

I realize that these are just thoughts, but somehow and somewhere along the lines I came to this conclusion that K'var must have somesort of relationship to the Royals to usurp the throne. I believe Ava and King's death was critical to the changing of power.

ITA, Qfanny, that Khivar must have some kind of "in" to be able to sit on the throne, given that Antar is apparently so attached to its bloodlones of power that they want a resurrected King back! Your ideas make sense. As for Liz, ITA there, too. She has shown that she is capable of staying her wonderful self when she is sans Max. Max, on the other hand, becomes a disaster Liz is both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness, and his need for her does have a supernatural quality to it.

Mel Wonderful thoughts about why Kyle suddenly started to view Tess as a sister. It would explain so much if that were the case!
~Tas

QFanny, thank you for relieving my tortured soul that at least someone else believes it is possible K'var was/is involved in EOTW somehow. Do you remember how FLiz shrieked "Max!" just as it was too late? What did she realize? -HH

Vihmakass, When I saw those pictures, I thought, "Wow!" because I had just finished reading Loose Ends (new Roswell book by Gregg Cox) which really ties in with the silver-handprint-on-the-stomach. Hmmm, I'm wondering if part of the reason Max and Liz are so attracted to each other is because of ***where*** he healed her--I mean, it wasn't an arm or a leg.

Qfanny & hanczika & everyone, about Kvar and TEOTW: Ultimately I would think he would have either been directing the forces that were killing everyone, or he would have been over-thrown by them (if they were the Michael Worshippers, for instance). Beyond that, I am still of the opinion that Max & Liz just didn't have a crystal ball, and so had to just give it their best shot--which, in this scenario, involved a time machine. So, yea, Kvar could have been using them, but I am generally unhappy with the whole Midieval flavor to the whole Royal 4 and Rulers of the Planets, so it's hard to get too excited about it. I would rather see them explore truly alternate styles of government.

Enough of my blathering.
And now... Ta-da!! (Fanfare)
Thanks to Reggie and Palomino, here is the screen cap of the skull-like image in the Granolith:

....But I ***do*** think she warped Kyle into thinking of her as a sister.

Well, as I stated above... the Kyle warping to *erase* the sex basically would have been two-fold:

1. Tess ERASES the actual sex
2. To FURTHER bury it in Kyle's psyche (and either prevent him from remembering or putting his feelings/emotions severely in conflict), she MINDWARPS him to see her as a sister (which you also believe shapeshifter).

I guess I can't think Tess wouldn't go through the trouble of mindwarping Kyle unless she had a VERY good reason for it (besides possibly keeping his *romantic* feelings for her from getting in the way of her macking on Max). She was *already* seemingly mindwarping both Alex, possibly Max and probably others the last few eps of the season. If she's going to mindwarp Kyle too (and KEEP mindwarping him, I don't know if it's the lingering Rebounder in me... but I CAN'T think Kyle would feel for Tess in a *brotherly* way unless he was *repeatedly* warped to believe it); she must have had a *very* good reason to do it considering how much power she was *already* using on others. I also would like to think there would be a part of Tess that wouldn't mindwarp someone unless she felt she REALLY had to do it. I can't think getting Kyle simply "out of the way" so she could pursue Max without "problems" would have been a good enough reason, it had to be beyond that.

quote:or it would have come out in the open before Max could find Max Jr.

Maybe that was part of the point in getting the podsters - at least Max - OFF Earth and NOW (even if that meant Max was heading straight for the Kivarian guillotine). She didn't want ANY of her mindwarps to come out in the open... I think the Alex-homicide was just the tip of the iceberg. I really think A LOT more stuff is going to come out and due to the time frames on some of the warps.... they'll probably come out pretty early in Season 3.

If this is the case, why would Tess have been willing to sacrifice Max's life? She wanted him to die remembering her the way SHE wanted him to see her? His (once) wife, the mother of his child... two factors which Liz Parker couldn't be. If Max stayed on Earth that would have either faded (with the fading mindwarps) or become null once the baby was born (and Max realized the kid isn't his). Max going to Antar, he would have died at her side - AWAY from Liz. Unfortunately for Tess, what T couldn't get Max to do was fall out of love with Liz... which is something Liz herself couldn't even do. Max STILL loved Liz in DEP and Tess KNEW it. So Liz was basically victorious, even after ALL of Tess' exhausting efforts. Liz - a human - still owned King Max's heart.

That look on Tess' face at the end of DEP seemed that of utter defeat (I really didn't see "martyr" as you seemed to see ss ). She couldn't get Max to come with her to Antar, she couldn't get Max to love her. Tess knows Max knows about what she did to Alex. She KNOWS Max loves Liz (more than he'd ever be able to love her). NOW all Max needs to discover is that the baby isn't his and the sex also might have never happened (which Tess knew he'd inevitably discover HAD he stayed on Earth)? Tess realizes she's not only lost Max... but he'll eventually reconcile with Liz (due to everything that tied him to T being lies/mindwarps) and get HER pregnant. Something that NEVER and WILL NEVER happen to Tess now? Perhaps Tess believed (even though I think this is rather sick and obsessive, even for Tess, but who knows)... that if Max wouldn't love her, he wouldn't get to love Liz either (or be with her, he'll always love L)... he was going to die on Antar, which Tess was fully aware of. Basically, if she couldn't have him, no one was going to... especially that "bitch" Liz Parker.

quote:in which case I don't think the writers would have given him that last line.

Well, perhaps that "I have to save my son" line could mean (or seem to mean) one thing now, but come Season 3 (or by the end of Season 3), who the heck knows? This is Roswell - not only the land of "not everything is as it seems" but also the land of gaping holes in continuity. Those two factors combined, I have to wonder sometimes if ultimately we're speccing simply for our own amusement. Ugh.

quote:But, yeah, anything's possible, including Season 3 ending with everyone discovering that Max Jr. is really Kyle Jr.

If Max Jr. is actually Kyle Jr.... I'd certainly hope we'd learn that BEFORE the Season 3 Finale. Lord!! There are several that are already considering the possibility NOW in this stage of the game... to have it DRAG all the way to the Finale (like it's some kind of shocking ending) would be... cheap. Even in the land of Roswell. Sure these stories aren't always "steady" (which is probably a gross understatement unfortunately)... but that would just be too much.

Ok, I was pondering on whether or not to share this ridiculous Season 3 spec with all of you (it's LONG [took up about 5 pgs. on Msoft Word] and just more early morning drivel aka spec)... but what the he**... read at your own leisure...
http://www.xanga.com/Private/home.asp

Melodious

I agree GraceKel, in that if Kyle/Tess did have sex, it probably happened after Tess' "niceness" in ARCC (making his favorite dish, getting closer to the Valentis, making them acknowledge her - particularly Kyle). The sex itself happening around WAF perhaps? Some of you are probably saying, "But she was so *human* during Christmas. She was trying to be sisterly towards him, not trying to get in his pants." I do feel Tess is a manipulative creature ... Alex wasn't in ARCC because he was presumedly in "Sweden" at this time. AKA, Tess was already mindwarping Alex to translate the Destiny Book. On one side, we have "human" Tess playing the "Nasedo thought human holidays were a waste of time so I had a horrible childhood, feel sorry for me" card... on the other, we have her mindwarping Alex to literally the point of insanity (taking him away from home, family, friends and Isabel... during Christmas).

I speculate the Kyle/Tess sex (if it happened) it probably happened around WAF. If it happened around ARCC and if a hybrid/human pregnancy is the same duration more or less as a *normal* human pregnancy (since they DO have to "do it the human way"... honestly, why should the pregnancy itself be different?)... then Tess would have been six months pregnant by May and would have *definitely* been showing in DEP. If the sex happened around WAF (or just afterwards), then that would possibly mean Tess would have been about 4 months pregnant (give or take) in May. She would have been showing, but not *that* badly.

If Tess DIDN'T get the podsters OFF the planet toute suite... they would have also realized she was LYING about the "1 month gestation", "the baby can't survive the Earth's atmosphere" stuff (hybrids are sent to Earth to "learn to use their powers/skills" to eventually free those poor Antarians.... but once one of them gets pregnant that all goes null/void because their kids can't survive on Earth?? Right. It doesn't make sense.)... as months rolled by and she STILL wasn't about to go into labor. Then the lie of the actual baby would have revealed itself once she DID go into labor... Max doesn't connect with the baby... but Kyle does (yes, I'm VERY convinced that kid is Kyle's... if Tess left pregnant at all).

Melodious

I do believe that Nacedo was truly involved with the plan, it explains his urging Max and Tess to "do the deed".

~Sheri

Speaking of midieval royalty, does anyone remember C.S. Lewis's Narnia books? It's not exactly a novel idea, the two male and two female members of the "royal four" in another world. The four: Peter, Susan, Edmund and Lucy must overturn the evil dictator-white-witch and regain the thrones for harmony to return to Narnia. And ONE betrays the others and is lured to the White Witch by his weakness for Turkish Behrish Delight. oops. freudian slip. -HH

Pity really, because I really liked the idea that Liz was special and could not be mindwarped.

EOTW cannot be a mindwarp. It might make sense if we weren't given that first scene between FM and FL. No character witnessed that interaction so it was meant for the benefit of the TV audience only. It was so we would know the identity of FM was valid.

Besides I am starting to grow weary or everything being a mindwarp. The writers really need to start seperating the fantasy from reality. Starting with the TEX, the baby, and Max's freaky behavior at the end of the season.

BTW How do you like my avatar that Shapeshifter made.
Thank you so much Shapeshifter.

MLP

Edited to say DOH! having technical dificulties.

I didn't see the "same" rolling of the eyes. I thought Liz's rolling was simply because she couldn't believe how Max was being. But Amy's rolling of the eyes was definately different. I dunno...

Cantbehrit

I'd hate to start thinking everything is a mindwarp.

About the baby not being able to survive the earth's atomsphere. Well I've never bought that theory since it makes absolutely NO since what-so-ever. IF, and its a big IF, the baby is Max & Tess's then why couldn't it survive here? Wouldn't it be what they are? They can survive here. If it was Kyle's it would be able to survive. The only way it couldn't survive (most likely) is if Tess had slept with a skin to get pregnant.

That is why I'm still going with the theory that the Sex/Baby was a mindwarp or something and Max was made to think that the "baby" couldn't survive so they HAD to leave.

Also, Tess has already shown us what she could make Max think and feel. Wasn't it TLV or the next - I lose track of the names of the episodes. But the scene with her and Max in the classroom could have been the exact same thing in the observatory.

This is definately a job for our Liz!! She needs to go to that observatory and see if there are any video tapes of that supposed night.

Cantbehrit

haniczka,
Yes, I am familiar with the part of C.S. Lewis's Narnia to which you referred (my kids all read them repeatedly--I, alas, did not ). Lewis was focusing on redemption; I think JK is focusing on teen angst. So then, I think he might want to deal with both Max's issues as the Dad, and issues of discovering he's not the dad (if that's the case). And Dad could be Nicholas--ooo! a trick on Kvar for Nicholas to take over!
Okay, now I'm getting caught up in the whole Divine-Right-Of-Kings-as-determined-by-blood-line-thing. --which is what I was complaining about in my anti-midieval rant. I think that such a technologically advanced civilization would have moved beyond that, to at least Rule of Law, and hopefully (from a creative standpoint) beyond to something else that we haven't even considered. I mean, 4 million viewers is a lot of folks--c'mon JK, make a statement! Sorry, tangent break. He is making statements, just not political.

Okay, so, a way out of the dependence on midieval bloodlines would be genetically programmed superiority for ruling. But, yuck, sounds kind of like Nazi supermen. Grandpa Dupris was just an average guy, but we haven't met Max's donor yet.

Oh, and about the baby's survival on earth--recall that the podsters were in pods for 6 years--that could easily explain it. I bet Valenti would have built a pod if the granolith had short circuited.

Also, Rh negative babies can be born (I think) to Rh positive parents.

Hmm? Odd, you shouldn't need one since my journal is public access. Try this link...
http://www.xanga.com/home.asp?user=Melodious1

quote:makes it seem like the new arc is at least set in Jello if not Cement. I am routing for just Jello.

Perhaps the Season 3 motto should be, "There's always room for Jello"? I'd prefer NOT to think Season 3 will resemble anything from Season 2. Season 1, I wouldn't mind so much. Keep Season 2 sleeping with the (flying blue jelly)fishes.

Melodious

quote:Originally posted by Melodious1:
If Max Jr. is actually Kyle Jr.... I'd certainly hope we'd learn that BEFORE the Season 3 Finale. Lord!! There are several that are already considering the possibility NOW in this stage of the game... to have it DRAG all the way to the Finale (like it's some kind of shocking ending) would be... cheap. Even in the land of Roswell.

Hehehe...ITO Mel .

Tess has Kyle's baby theory

Reasons why I am 98% (-2% cause we all know how some silly writer might mess this all up )SURE Tess is pregnant with Kyle's kid and they want us to believe it...

In an arguement with a bunch of rebels and I realized some of them had said Tess couldn't have been mindwarping the pregnancy because she was looking at her 'tummy' in a scene while she was all alone...They're totally correct. Why would she do that? Practicing? Maybe not...she might have really been pregnant. Only reason I can think of this scene was shown:

Kyle and the playboy magazine. Proof Melodious1 is completely correct on Kyle being a ummm...having raging 17 year-old boy hormones ...

Hybrids+ Hybrid cannot reproduce. End of story. grrrrr...I a HOPING someone on Roswell writting staff will have the common sense keep this SOMEWHAT true to science & biology cannot emphasize that enough sorry ...

Tess calls Valenti DAD . She was leaving already why would she say that?? I dunno I just found it 'out of place' for her to be thinking about that at that point in time while she was thinking about her baby...and she said it sounded weird...which leads us to...

Tess says she didn't go to sleep after prom on the silverhandprint.com but she wrote she left at 11:30pm...........

Maybe something happened with Kyle at the end of the night????

Tess wrote on the silverhanprint.com memories prom thing that her and Kyle's song was "Oops I did it Agains" by Britney Spears
[i]Oops!...I think I did it again
I made you believe
we're more than just friends
Oh baby
(and "Son of a Preacher Man" ...from Pulp Fiction )
I'd die for you girl, and all they can say is "He's not your kind"(...)Baby, I've done all I could
Now it's up to you
Girl, you'll be a woman soon
Soon you'll need a man"

She was going back to Antar even without Max. Why would she risk her life like that if she didn't really have something other than the grenolith to deliver ???

Kyle's fingers where drumming after he hugs Tess when they say goodbye...she was probably still mindwarping him to make him forget (not flash) while he was touching her about them having sex??

We figured you out writers so there you go! Don't mess with the Liz mythers

RE: granolith I think it is a time machine AND a spaceship and possibly one of the very first things built by the s??? SO in land its considered religious because I dunno why...but something related to that

gran·o·lith (grn-lth) n. A paving stone of crushed granite and cement

Hmmmm???

Cantbehrit

"spec bible"? You should read my Nasedo spec on there, it's just as long and just about as insane.

As for Max's "sacred sperm" (Not!)... I believe it's Liz who has the sacred eggs After all, this IS the Liz Myth, isn't it?

I don't want y'all to think I just want Liz "special" because she has these "sacred eggs" (ahem ), but because she's Max's complement and he's a better ruler WITH her than without her. As we've seen in the past few eps... Max + Tess = Boy (which Tess inadvertantly admits). Max + Liz = King.

My spec would also flow with the apparent motife of "failed destinies" in the seasons as well:

Season 1: Beginning of Destiny (Max/Liz), but discovery of a false "destiny" which temporarily derails the (true) one already started (Tess derailing M/L)

Season 2: Thwarting of the false "destiny" discovered in Season 1, start of the rebuilding of the true destiny

Season 3 (via my spec): Real destiny FOUND, but started too soon (Kivar influences the situation so 17-yr-old Liz gets pregnant / in trouble). Although Max/Liz KNOW they're each others' destiny, because they're not totally ready to FACE this "destiny" yet, fate once again derails them.

Season 4: Since I don't believe Katims would *glorify* teen pregnancy in any way (regardless of what evil bast*** was influencing the situation)... I can't think we're going to be seeing Liz Parker pregnant. Perhaps the child gets taken away after it's born, Liz returns to Earth somehow and Max/Liz have to fight to save their son/daughter? However, the one and only time we see Max/Liz's "child" (Season 4 Finale?)... he/she comes from the future, via the Granilith (if it's NOT buried postSeason2), and we learn M/L's son/daughter has overthrown Kivar and has saved Antar. Fulfilling his/her "destiny" (becoming the new King/Queen). Max/Liz realize if they try and "save" their infant son/daughter now, it will change "destiny" and Kivar might not be defeated (Antar will fall and so will Earth)? The adult child asks his/her parents to let him/her go in order for "destiny" to be fulfilled? Although it's painful, Max/Liz KNOW this is their child and realize they have to give up their fight to save their baby (so the baby can grow up on Antar to defeat Kivar).

If you're wondering... YES, foreign substances ARE influencing these theories (one too many Coronas today during the pre-Memorial Day picnic I think).

Melodious

Anyway...basically you guys kick ass... Seeya around FF!

-fallen

I'm loving the ideas that Tess was impregnated by Kyle or a Skin. A little variety from the old Mindwarp story, eh!

I know it was mentioned back circa Surprise but hell, Tess sure is acting more like Vilandra every day. Isabel's never done one thing to betray Max except wanting to go out of state for college...ouch ouch. Tess mindwarped everyone and killed Isabel's love, a friend of her entire "family", for the sake (supposedly) of a deal with Kivar, their enemies. Maybe she was impregnated by Nicholas or Kivar, because that whole "betraying your family for love" is looking more and more like Tess... if she's even capable of feeling love...

More than anything, like some of you have said, it's the hybrid-hybrid thing that bothers me... Hopefully JK, RM, et al expect us to have half a brain and question this which points to the fact that it's not Max's kid... Also, even if hybrids could procreate, their baby would not be an alien incapable of surviving on earth... Two half-aliens do not make a full-blooded alien.

ITA that these frustrating chads and half-finished storylines do provide startling potential for an unparalleled season 3...But if they'll explore that potential or even a third of it is yet to be seen...

fallen

Still struggling for a way out of the midieval morass...how about $$ or some other valuable object (granolith, monolith, dadolith, etc.) having something to do with who gets power. Of course then, why haven't the Michael Worshippers, or the Pierce Worshippers, or Whatever Rebel Faction (hmmm, "rebels?" Tess Worshippers?) long since grabbed it?

Mel, still reading. http://www.xanga.com/home.asp?user=Melodious1
And WR too! http://www.olde.worlde.btinternet.co.uk/wrfanfic.html

More than anything, like some of you have said, it's the hybrid-hybrid thing that bothers me... Hopefully JK, RM, et al expect us to have half a brain and question this which points to the fact that it's not Max's kid... Also, even if hybrids could procreate, their baby would not be an alien incapable of surviving on earth... Two half-aliens do not make a full-blooded alien.

Yeahbut...
Look, all Tess's known life she's been fixated on Max. Having Max's love, baby, and royal station. She can so easily get the genuine article, why on Earth would she settle for something else? Did you see the look on her face when Max tells Michael "I love you"? She never got that from him! It totally explains the ill humor she's in at the end, calling names, etc.

As for the BEMlet: these aren't natural hybrids. These were engineered, and are mostly human. I believe that since their bodies are effectively human, they are breedable with humans. Pregnancy should be 9 months, so I think Tess (who's NOT showing) has been... mislead, at best.

It's being sick also is quite explainable, and I did over on CHADs. Simply put, our bodies need a certain amount of CO2 in our air for the breathing reflex to work properly. If there is not enough, or too much, we don't breathe properly and can suffocate.

Biochemicaly, it's tied to the amount of CO2 dissolved in our blood, which changes the pH of the blood. If the BEMlet was evolved for a different level of CO2, and a different body pH, then being in Tess (in our atmosphere) could expose his body to an incorrect, and eventually toxic, pH. Remember Max's comment that the baby couldn't breathe? The baby isn't supposed to, of course; but its breathing reflex may be being triggered by that improper CO2 level.

By the same token, when Tess tries to breathe the atmosphere back "home", it will be toxic for her, too. Unless special precautions are taken... do you think Kivar will bother?

I totally agree with this. I've decided that Tess actually has three different types of "mindwarps"

1. Hallucination- This type was the kind seen mostly in season one. Tess is just making the victim see what isn't there. examples are when she gave visions to Max in T,L,AV and in WR when she did the same to Iz. There is no tapping during an hallucination. I also believe that it is possible that the Tex and possibly the baby are hallucinations.
2. Blocking-this is when Tess 'blocks' someone's memory. I say 'blocks' instead of 'erases' because obviously Amy, Kyle, and Alex all started to remember their memories so the memories must have just been blocked not erased. I believe this is what causes finger tapping.
3. Memory implants-I think that most of us believe that Max's retrieved memories actually originated from Tess. Max's memory of the hatching from T,L,AV is also suspect. I believe Tess also uses this ability to replace memories that she has blocked. I'm not certain whether this causes tapping or not, but I'm leaning against it since I haven't really noticed any tapping from Max since he started 'memory retrieval'. I think only blocked memories cause tapping.

I do also believe that Tess is capable of mindwarping Liz if only because everyone has to have some flaws. Liz is still very important to the aliens but it makes it far more interesting if there are some obstacles to overcome. Besides that, I doubt the writers would ever think of such a thing.

Still confused by motives on Tess's part, though, so I'm not even going to comment on that yet.

BTW, this is a little out there, but has anyone ever seen The Muppets Treasure Island? I was just watching it on tv and it struck me how appropriate the love song was for a Max/Liz reunion.

Was I dum or was I blind
Or did my heart just loose its mind
Why'd I go and through
our perfect dream away

Looking back I'll never know
How I ever let you go
But destiny could see we deserved
to have another day

Love lead us here
Right back to where we belong
We followed a star and here we are
Now heavan seems so near
Love lead us here

I know life can take you by suprise
And sweep you off your feet
Did this happen to us
Or are we just dreaming

Love lead us here
Right back to where we belong
We followed a star and here we are
Now heaven seems so near
Love lead us here.

So take my hand
And have no fear
We'll be alright
Love lead us here.

RW

I was contemplating the possibility that Kvar and his wiley ways were at work behind the scenes of EOTW. For example, maybe Michael didn't really die in FM's arms and maybe Isabel isn't really dead. If FM and FL aren't knowledgeable about the depth of mind-control at work, who knows? FLiz did cry out as if something didn't "feel" right when it was too late. But I realize I'm in a highly speculative rhealm here.

shapeshifter, you bring up an interesting point. Since the United States has never had a monarchy, we tend to be fascinated by stories with "midieval" bloodlines. Why would some highly developed future society need a king? (of course the answer is "ratings" but that won't make you happy.)

I'd like to see the baby as Kyle's. It would give Nick W. a more definitive role in future episodes.

Let's talk about something serious: do we think they'll all get new hair-styles for S3? sorry. I've been feeling a little punchy lately. -HH

In trying to figure out whether a potential suspect is guilty or not, the general rule is to figure out if the person has Motive, Means, and Opportunity. One must have all three to be a legitimate suspect.

Motive: Why would Tess do it? The stated reason is that she was keeping a bargain made by her father with Kivar. This bargain makes no sense for Tess, because Kivar has killed her once before. Once in his power, she has no reason to believe that he couldn't do it again. Indeed, since Tess is now carrying Max's son and heir, there is are additional reasons for Kivar to eliminate her. If Kivar wants the baby as his own heir, he will not want its loyalty diluted by any input from its mother. Further, surely Kivar by now has his own heir; who would want to eliminate this rival. If Tess is Kivar's kin, her offspring could still be a rallying point for Max's friends, and thus Kivar's enemies. If Kivar wants Max's heir dead, killing them both would be even better. It would demoralize Max's loyalists even further, than simply killing either one. Even if the baby isn't Max's, no one knows this but Tess, so it doesn't matter. (Of course, Nikolas said to Lonnie in MitC that Kivar wanted them all dead, but Tess doesn't know this.) For Tess, a return "home" will be fatal, and she should know this.

Means: How could Tess do it? She can do some mindwarps, and memory blockages. We've seen her do it to Kyle, and to Amy Deluca, but these were minor, and did not last more than a few weeks. Mindwarping Alex completely out of his mind would be a major undertaking; for his personallity to be supressed for a couple of months is something that is beyond Tess's demonstrated capacity. Furthermore, she's busy in school, but she would also have to be supervising the school's Guidance Department, the University's Admissions, Housing, and Computer Science Departments, as well as getting Alex the slides and souvenirs of Sweden (which would involve handling "Leanna" as well). She has to come up with the Alien Bomb (how and where did she get that?), as well as the laptop and printer, and rent the building that they are all in. She would need to be guiding Alex in "decoding" the book, even though there is no Rosetta Stone which will provide the necessary info: she must supply that herself. But if she could understand the book in the first place, why not say so? If the timing was off, she could "recover" the necessary reading skills when needed, and save herself a lot of work. Manipulating Alex as "Ray" is beyond Tess's capacity, both for Powers and for hours in the day.

Opportunity: When could Tess do it? She couldn't; as noted above, there's just too much work for her to do, to get it all done.

In conclusion, since Tess has neither the motive, nor the means, nor the opportunity to do the work behind the Evil Plan, she simply could not have done it.

Did anyone read my post about the definition of Graniloth? If it is by definition a paving stone - what does that mean?

I'm with the people who are beginning to think that the Graniloth is NOT what Tess went home in.

Well - goodnight all...I'm actually off to watch the first few episodes of Roswell!

Cantbehrit

Just looked up Granolith in the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary: it comes from "grain," specifically meaning "a seed," and "lithic," a "rock." So: a "seed rock."

An RBI tidbit:
Did anyone else notice that the heart with the arrow that Tess drew on the newspaper not only didn't have her initials linked with his, but there just so happened to be an "F" adjacent to "Max" as in "Future Max" with an arrow through his heart?

I had asked a question on the last thread if anyone knew where re-runs might be airing. I don't know if anyone answered or not, as the new thread started before I can check for a response! You guys are so quick!

So, I'll ask again and I'm sorry if you answered already, but just one more time...

mako

I'm rather a lurker in this thread, but
you people have inspired me to post. I mean gosh you all are so observant and quite intelligent when it comes scrutinizing Liz importance.

Well anyway, a million pardons if it has been mentioned already: Coinsidence or Intentional= Both season finales, the first and second begin with the letter D ->Destiny and Departure. Why? The letter D is the fourth letter of the english alphabet (4 royals), came orgianlly from a hierogliphic drawing of a hand = ---> silver handprint on LIZ!!!!!

Hew

Enough of my blathering.
And now... Ta-da!! (Fanfare)
Thanks to Reggie and Palomino, here is the screen cap of the skull-like image in the Granolith:

like oh myyyyyyyyyyyyyyy budha thats freaky it could be a coincidence or it was distiny but it could be a warning or death is near by

Teehee . I knew that even though I'd say its more like Max + Tess= retarded dork...Max + Liz = Strong boy capable of doing what he has/wants/needs whatever this be.

quote:The adult child asks his/her parents to let him/her go in order for "destiny" to be fulfilled? Although it's painful, Max/Liz KNOW this is their child and realize they have to give up their fight to save their baby (so the baby can grow up on Antar to defeat Kivar). [/b]

Thats soo sad but would be soo soo plausible. Yes, your specs all sound very solid Corona help or not . I cannot find a chad to any off them . I thought that the 'Max' that goes back in TEOFTW IS SON MAX (I got this fro one of your ideas and thought it quite possible to) because well firstly FMax never kisses Liz goodbye in TEOFTW before he gets into the chamber or before he disappears. Then,

Liz says:
LIZ: No, no, I don't...I don't know who you are, but you...you're not Max.
FUTURE MAX: Liz, I know this is all hard to believe...

FMax says :
FUTURE MAX: If I were a shapeshifter, there's no way I could tell the future... and he does so he's not a shapeshifter.

Then he says...
FUTURE MAX: The closer that you and I grew, the worse it got with Tess, and eventually she left Roswell.
LIZ: Because of me?
FUTURE MAX: Because of me,...
Tess left because of the baby NOT because of father Max.

and then...
FUTURE MAX: It's complicated...but if a person encounters himself in another time period, there could be a...a reaction. (...)but in essence, Max and I would both be destroyed if we actually came into contact.
And he does see himself if that IS himself so obviously thats not him

I think that when he said that the Max he was now would seize to exist because as the son he would now be born a few years later and thats the only paradoxical reasoning why he would have disappeared the present timeline less this meant he got killed in the future. Wait a minute, then ok so if there was a tear in space but the granolith was still on earth then it must have gone back again so they could use it less FMax was the son coming back to 2014 from the Future-future...then the granolith could still be there.

This is getting really complicated so I'll stop before I confuse myself more

Ok but for real, if it was FMax and he encountered himself in this scene then maybe this is the reason Tess still betrayed them?? anyone else wanna munch on this?. But basically he never kisses her goodbye and he does run into himself well atleast sees himself here...so it can't be him. This is gonna be a long summer.

In trying to figure out whether a potential suspect is guilty or not, the general rule is to figure out if the person has Motive, Means, and Opportunity. One must have all three to be a legitimate suspect.

Motive: Why would Tess do it? The stated reason is that she was keeping a bargain made by her father with Kivar. This bargain makes no sense for Tess, because Kivar has killed her once before. Once in his power, she has no reason to believe that he couldn't do it again. Indeed, since Tess is now carrying Max's son and heir, there is are additional reasons for Kivar to eliminate her. If Kivar wants the baby as his own heir, he will not want its loyalty diluted by any input from its mother. Further, surely Kivar by now has his own heir; who would want to eliminate this rival. If Tess is Kivar's kin, her offspring could still be a rallying point for Max's friends, and thus Kivar's enemies. If Kivar wants Max's heir dead, killing them both would be even better. It would demoralize Max's loyalists even further, than simply killing either one. Even if the baby isn't Max's, no one knows this but Tess, so it doesn't matter. (Of course, Nikolas said to Lonnie in MitC that Kivar wanted them all dead, but Tess doesn't know this.) For Tess, a return "home" will be fatal, and she should know this.

Tess had plenty of motivation. It was practically spelled out for us. SHE isn't Khivar's enemy. She assumes that Khivar won't kill her because she's bringing him the child and giving him control of the heir. It's about POWER. She's got it, and she probably likes it, especially since she excercising said power over people who she apparently feels rejected her. POWER and REVENGE. Tess has classic motivation.

quote:
Means: How could Tess do it? She can do some mindwarps, and memory blockages. We've seen her do it to Kyle, and to Amy Deluca, but these were minor, and did not last more than a few weeks. Mindwarping Alex completely out of his mind would be a major undertaking;

Unfortunately, Tess's powers are whatever the writers decide they are. They evidently decided that Tess was capable of mindwarping Alex to death, because Tess, when cornered, confesses to the crime.

quote:
Furthermore, she's busy in school, but she would also have to be supervising the school's Guidance Department, the University's Admissions, Housing, and Computer Science Departments, as well as getting Alex the slides and souvenirs of Sweden (which would involve handling "Leanna" as well). She has to come up with the Alien Bomb (how and where did she get that?), as well as the laptop and printer, and rent the building that they are all in.

Agreed that Tess had to have at least one co-conspirator. As far as we know, she had no access to alien bombs and such. (My theory is that Jennifer/Leanna is an abductee, just as Brody is.) That doesn't make Tess's participation un-Evil.

quote:
She would need to be guiding Alex in "decoding" the book, even though there is no Rosetta Stone which will provide the necessary info: she must supply that herself. But if she could understand the book in the first place, why not say so?

AAARRGGH. I so agree about the nonsensical nature of Tess having Alex secretly translate the book. What was her need for secrecy since the book evidently carried informmation that was friendly to her cause, i.e. a primer on how to get home? Wouldn't Alex have gladly done that on his own? Unless Tess feared that the book also carried information that was *unfriendly* to her. And, for that matter, maybe it did. She did, after all, have several months to change the details to suit her of the translation that spewed out of the computer in such a totally convenient manner.

But, obviously I disagree with you. Tess apparently does have the means to mindwarp Alex to death, and did so. She admitted it. Kyle remembered it. Case closed.

quote:
Opportunity: When could Tess do it? She couldn't; as noted above, there's just too much work for her to do, to get it all done.

I agree, there has to be an accomplice. Maybe they'll get around to explaining the whereabouts of Nicholas, Lonnie et al. Ya think?

quote:
In conclusion, since Tess has neither the motive, nor the means, nor the opportunity to do the work behind the Evil Plan, she simply could not have done it.

But she did have motive, means and opportunity. And she did do it.

Laura

What if Tess is not Tess? If Tess was the leaky pod, or switched by Nasedo, Nicolas or other parties, Tess may actually be another kind of alien rather than a podster. If she was a SSer trying to get a Zan child back to Kivar, it makes sense that she would pretend to be Tess. It would also make more sense that the fetus could not stand our atmospere, sense it would not be 2/4 human, only 1/4. It would have been stupid on the part of the planners to create hybrids that could not reproduce. Surely aliens advanced enough to create the hybrids would also be able to make them reproducable - otherwise there was no point in making a king and queen to begin with. The ultimate stupidity would be to have their unborn children poisoned by the atmosphere of the planet they were hiding on. The poisoning bit was either a mindwarp on Max to make him think he had to take her back home, or it was because she was an imposter he impregnated. She could not be Liz, because he would know from flashes/connecting it was not her. He might expect odd visions from Tess, and she might be like Michael and be able to prevent some things getting through.

I feel like a mouse in Swiss cheese. So many holes, so many directions, and right turns are a matter of perspective.

What if Alex voluntarily helped Tess to decipher the book. However in the process something was "discovered" or deciphered that Tess needed hidden. Myabe she then decided to warp Alex to believe his cover story. If this si the case their was no need to sustain a mind warp. Only change his memories. Maybe this girl "Leanna" was a real friend Alex made while at the university, and she helped him to hide a copy of the book, suspecting Tess had alterior motives. Tess may have blocked her memories too. Alex returned home and kept having flashes of what really happened. When he would confront Tess, she would block his memory again. This may have happened often and resulted in Alex feeling his mind was a mess. The last time he was there confronting her Kyle saw, she tried to get him quiet,but in her panic killed him. NOW she must hurry her plan along, before Kyle remembers. And now she rushes her plan with Max and "the baby".

Wow, this actually make sa little sense. Well, at least to me!

What so you all think??

~Sheri

quote:Originally posted by roswelldiva:
...ok so if there was a tear in space but the granolith was still on earth then it must have gone back again so they could use it less FMax was the son coming back to 2014 from the Future-future...then the granolith could still be there....[/B]
rosdiva, in TEOTW Max never left earth. The futuristicness of it gives us the impression they're on Antar, but FM tell Liz the EAs took over Earth, not Antar. Picture the granolith just spinning in place. Not sure how it allows Max to make a landing outside Liz's window--must be the programming in the crystal d*ld*.

quote:Originally posted by Lorelai19:
AAARRGGH. I so agree about the nonsensical nature of Tess having Alex secretly translate the book. What was her need for secrecy since the book evidently carried informmation that was friendly to her cause, i.e. a primer on how to get home? Wouldn't Alex have gladly done that on his own? Unless Tess feared that the book also carried information that was *unfriendly* to her. And, for that matter, maybe it did. She did, after all, have several months to change the details to suit her of the translation that spewed out of the computer in such a totally convenient manner.
[/B]Lorelai, Excellent deducing! And will we ever know how much of the Mommogram was a mindwarp?

Reading on... looks like SciFiMom is with us on this one!

Palomino, on Tess not being Tess, this goes back to my ol' Season 1 theory that Tess was really the cloned essence of Nasedo's wife who died in the crash or the white room.

But that's just it. If the book had information friendly to Tess's cause, (and evidently, it did...) Why the need for secrecy AT ALL? Why didn't she plop the book in front of Alex in front of everyone and say, "Alex, we need this information. It will tell us who we are. I will help you get access to the super computer at Las Cruces University if you will help us out."

Tess would look like a good guy to the rest of the gang, which was apparently part of her objective.

UNLESS Tess had reason to fear that the book had information that was NOT good for her cause. In that case, she would want access to the information before anyone else saw it so she could doctor it appropriately?

Perhaps. Once you introduce mindwarp, literally anything is possible.

Laura

DOH! oops you're sooo right !!! ITA with you can't change fate because your timeline will fight to go back to what it was. Not that we wanna encourage the idea its ok to go warping back in time . Cause as you said Alex died as a result.

Thanks for clearing that up!! I dunno why I had the idea they had all gone back to Antar by then. You're probably absolutely correct . Thank.u

Did anyone read my post about the definition of Graniloth? If it is by definition a paving stone - what does that mean?

Please, not The Dallas Option - that's just awful; I can't bear it.

OK, one meaning is paving stone... or similarly a stepping stone. So, you're naming an interstellar spaceship: is calling her The Stepping-Stone reasonable?

If The Stepping-Stone is the royal yacht, it all makes sense. Kivar wants the royal yacht back, too. It was missing, but no one really noticed; and it wasn't important enough to make public. The Stepping-Stone's autopilot is set, by the "key", for the trip home. A different key would give a different destination. This is an old sci-fi tool; originally the autopilot would be run from a spool of punched paper tape. The tape rips during flight, and hilarity ensues...

Kivar will never feel complete control over the child, until its Mother is dead. Oops! Not a viable plan.
---

"Unfortunately, Tess's powers are whatever the writers decide they are. They evidently decided that Tess was capable of mindwarping Alex to death, because Tess, when cornered, confesses to the crime."

Tess's powers are what the writers show us they are. We've seen that her mindwarps are limited in strength and duration. Both the Amy Deluca one and the Kyle one wore off after, what, a few weeks? Suppressing Alex's entire psyche for a couple months takes a Nikolas-class mindwarp. Having him running around collecting souveniers and helping with the translation makes sense. So, is Tess boss of Nikolas, or vice versa? (He lets her take credit, in front of Kivar?)

I can see Nikolas using Tess for window dressing, and setting her up to think she did everything, to cover his own tracks. Sure, she gave Alex the coup-de-grace, but she couldn't have done the real damage to him. Nikolas has motive, means, and opportunity; plus a probable supply of alien hardware like the Bomb.

BTW, I believe that Kyle will be the first to notice this. His MW was much weaker than what had to have been done to Alex. Since his grandfather and father are in Law Enforcement, and he probably grew up on The Hardy Boys, this sort of M,M,O analysis could easily come from him.

Hmm. Eventually, Kyle saves Tess. Interesting possibilities...

Hey is anyone starting our won rerun schedule for this summer?? Maybe we could watch through both season 1 and 2, then come discuss them again. It helped during teh 6 week hiatus.

Any takers on setting this up? I would try but am just above the computer illiterate stage.

~Sheri

And here's some of my takes on rewatching (hey, with a daughter, so we call it 'family bonding'):

But the bottom line is that JK made up a lot of the outcome as he went along, so, we have to keep that in mind.

Pilot -- When Max lets Liz 'see him,' the images are virtually identical to what Maria sees from Michael in Departure with regards to time and place. And in both there is no Tess.

Max chooses to tell Liz; he doesn't have to. He could have made up a story. But when he takes the step of saving her, he knows he doesn't "want" to keep it a secret from her anymore, as he tells Michael; he wants her to see him. ***sigh*** and the rest is dreamer history.

Skin & Bones -- The whole thing with Nasedo taking orders from Max and trying to get Max not to listen to Michael's warnings sure sounds like it might have been part of an agenda for Nasedo and Tess to isolate Max from his support group.

When Liz comes down the stairs and firmly says that the killing started all the trouble in the first place, we see Max guided by Liz's wisdom and directed away from Nasedo's agenda.

Interesting in the light of the last few Season 2 eps that Maria says in S&B about Piercedo, "I hope he's using birth control." Him, maybe for the Skins it's sort of 'built in.'

Roswelldiva- I like your thory about FMax really being Max's son. Except I thought it would also make sense for him to be Max and Liz's son, and that's why Tess left. So m/L's son comes back in time to prevent his own birth, thereby ensuring Tess stays in Roswell.

Anyway, I have my own theory about Departure and Tess's deal. Tess and/or Nasedoo made a deal with Khivar- but the deal didn't involve a child. The deal was only for Tess to deliver the other 3 and the Granolith to Khivar. Tess figured the only way to get Max and the others to leave Earth is to MW sex with Max, then pretend she's pregnant with his son, who is supposedly dying from being on earth. That gets rid of the baby and sex, which should please many dreamers and Liz fans. This also explains Tess's horrified face at the end- she knows she failed in her mission to return with the other 3.

Then, once Michael says he wants to stay on earth, Tess also looks a little worried, but figures she at least has Max the King and Isabel- Khivar's supposed lost love. Tess even says something like 'whoever's leaving, we have to go now' when Isabel's hugging Michael and saying goodbye, probably to hurry them up before Isabel can change her mind about leaving Earth. Later on while explaining the deal to Max, Tess probably maintains the pregnant facade and includes it as part of the deal to stop Max from killing her.

what does everyone think??

-frank

I'm really starting to think that Tess didn't go "home".. I think she was sent somewhere else...

Cantbehrit

I'm really starting to think that Tess didn't go "home".. I think she was sent somewhere else...

Cantbehrit

fmax.. max and tess' baby? i've been gone too long. but don't you think that if he was max's and tess' baby, then wouldn't fmax not like liz, or show contempt for her, since she's "the other woman" in papa max's life? i don't know about that one.

I keep thinking about Tess's explanation for why she killed Alex.
She says something like "he would have told you what I had done and I couldn't let him".

Then Max never asks exactly what it is that she did. OK yeah she had Alex translate the book and mindwarped him. Why did she need Alex and not have anyone else involved?

There has to be more to why she placed Alex in that situation and what she had him do.

Edited to say that Beam up similie is very funny.

I'm just "checking in" after being off-line all weekend, and Thanks! Fallen Princess for the compliment! Which is really owed to Shapeshifter who did mine, too! I love MLP's new one!

I really want to welcome of the newbies posting! I is so fun to have you all join us, even if it is to blow off some frustration! Join the crowd!

As someone (many?) have said, I too do nto want everything to be a mindwarp - that would be taking it all a bit too far! But, I do want the Tex/baby to be part of a grand plot that involved a mindwarp! Tess could have been raped in MITC and then mindwarped by Nicko to think that the pregnancy was Max's - but that would assume a normal gestation period.

Here is where I keep getting hung up - they are Hybrids, but we keep getting sold this line that their alien half is so much more important even though Harding said that ALL their powers where Human (just a few thousand years advanced). IF their alien side is so much more important, than WHY send them to Earth and mix them with human DNA and leave them here with only one way to get back?? Even Iz mentions this issue in her Gravesite "chat" with Alex in Departure! I think - hope - that this is explored more - and the connection to Liz is tied in.

I can't remember who mentioned it - but I'm the strong proponent of the "ancient common ancestor" theory - and I like the idea of an Earthly Human protector out there watching them - but not revealing him/herself just yet! Think about the "X-Men" scenario - humans that due to evolutionary change have advanced powers - and apply this to Roswell. Liz could be - unbeknownest to herself - part of this "advanced" human grouping - with Max just unleashing powers that were dormant or yet to develop. His healing accelerated the development, and failing to cement the night of the concert allowed for the development to continue on-course.

I can tell you - if Season 3 is all about "Max's pursuit of his son" I will not last an entire season! Oh - and I was one of those who screamed when Iz said "What do we do now Max?"

Antoher things that has recently bugged me - at the end of Season 1 all the beepers went off - which I always thought were Skins, BUT never does CW or any of the Skins mention that they were alerted to Roswell - or mention the ownership of one of these beepers. Only Brody has one - and came to Roswell because of it. SO - who were the beeper owners?? Another group of Aliens that have taken up residence throughout the world as "normal" humans - or actual humans that are part of an advanced group waiting for their own "destiny" to be fulfilled.

Shapeshifter - I'm actually fascinated by the idea of how such an advance civilization could still be run by a Monarchy? But then, we still have some very odd political structures here on Earth - and we are considered pretty advanced - so the existence of it doesn't bug me, I just want it explained in a way that fits in with the story - and then that flowed into "why Earth was chosen"? I still like the Prophecy theory for part of the "Why?" explanation.

RW - Like your breakdown of the Mind effects. I view the "tapping" as a nervous reaction that is the side effect of the Mind trying to work things out (the lost or blocked memories). Like when people tap when they day dream. I will tap sometimes when I'm "thinking" out a solution to a problem - so it makes sense that it would arise when the body is trying to "fix" itself.

I subscribe to the theory that Liz could not be mindwarped - though Tess tried - the throwing up after leaving the Valenti's. But what do I know??

Shapeshifter - ITA with your two observations. I unfortunately also believe the writers didn't know what to do with the Granolith, so ... took the "easy" CHAD way out.

quote:Let's talk about something serious: do we think they'll all get new hair-styles for S3? sorry. I've been feeling a little punchy lately. -HH

ROTHFLMAO! Have you read Reggie's Liz hair theory yet?

Reggie - I agree that Tess needed MOM, and didn't have them all - but I do think she was involved, though not the driving force. I believe there had to be help from some more powerful aliens - here on Earth - to have pulled all of the scheme off.

Makato14 - In case you have not received an answer - my understanding is that there will be NO rerun on the WB, and UPN is still up in the air whether they can even get the rights to show reruns. Hope that helps.

Cool catch Hew! And welcome!

This is getting long - so I better post it before it gets EATEN!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

But about the mile marker 67 clue, I'm still trying to put something else together there--something with the motive, the "then he'd tell what I did" part. Recall when Maxcedo was leaving his "clues," including the one at mile marker 67, Liz saw them. I don't know, but maybe a tie-in with the red triangle disappearing bomb? Or did Alex see her kill someone else?

Qfanny, I'll be there if I'm not somewhere else.

Zero, so glad you're back! Yes, Reggie's hair theory might be a good place to start for the Season 2 Theories Archive. And anybody who wants to write some can send them to maxcedo@hotmail.com . Take a look at the Season One Theories to get an idea of how it might be worded. Or maybe I'll just cop out and use Zero's intro?

WHERE IS C MCCOY? I have a question--you said be sure to tape the ending this season because we would want to watch this over and over again-----HUH????? I will simply tell you I was somewhat disappointed in this ending---I did not care for them letting Michael and Maria have a connection that I believed ONLY Max and Liz shared--THIS took away from the SPECIALNESS of Max and Liz--thanks JK for that ho hum--don't get me wrong I like M and M but as a contrast to M and L and for different reasons, their comical banter(of course I always felt that M and M came together much too quickly in season1 to begin with so..) Can you also tell JK that knowing the audience was waiting for that Liz didn't sleep with Kyle info ALL SEASON that what is played out was done in a very la-di-da way?
I wish things could have been different Liz--boo hoo--now I have to go kiss Tess????? And I never give you ANOTHER THOUGHT---geez this was a far stretch from the way Max portrayed his feelings for Liz in SEASON1--remember he was devastated at the thought that Liz was killed in VR in White Room? But yet he left a murderer running loose on an innocent VIRGINAL GIRL(since it was so important to him) who he had to now realize had not betrayed him after all? I guess I am feeling a bit BITTER this morning. Someone posted somewhere that at the end of all this Liz came off like the SECONDSTRING girlfriend--I somewhat agree with this--it was not a GOOD EMOTIONAL PAYOFF simply to have Tess turn out bad since I suspected that since she showed up--as far as I am concerned this being dragggggggggged all season to the point of nauseum was not great storytelling. She still walks away the big winner with the BABY in the oven???? hmmmmm. I hate to be negative completely so later I will come back and post what I did like about season2.

Kivar will never feel complete control over the child, until its Mother is dead. Oops! Not a viable plan.

Yeah, pretty dumb of Tess to fall for it. And apparently, she *has* fallen for it. I guess being jilted by Max damaged her thinking process. Or, perhaps she was bullied into it by Nicholas and Lonnie in MITC during the mysterious missing scene.
---

quote:

Tess's powers are what the writers show us they are. We've seen that her mindwarps are limited in strength and duration. Both the Amy Deluca one and the Kyle one wore off after, what, a few weeks? Suppressing Alex's entire psyche for a couple months takes a Nikolas-class mindwarp. Having him running around collecting souveniers and helping with the translation makes sense. So, is Tess boss of Nikolas, or vice versa? (He lets her take credit, in front of Kivar?)

Tess obviously participated. I agree she had to have help. However, having help doesn't make her participation Non Evil.

quote:
I can see Nikolas using Tess for window dressing, and setting her up to think she did everything, to cover his own tracks. Sure, she gave Alex the coup-de-grace, but she couldn't have done the real damage to him.

But we have to assume that she did, until proven otherwise. Sorry, but I just can't work up any sympathy for Tess. Whether she was mastermind or minion, her behavior was selfish, stupid and yes... evil. Blame it on the writers if you want to. Pray to the God of good writing that the baby story line is fake. I'm not optimistic.

quote:
BTW, I believe that Kyle will be the first to notice this. His MW was much weaker than what had to have been done to Alex.

I have a theory on that. When the aliens use their powers a lot, they get exhasuted. I think that Tess's mindwarps were losing efficacy because she was over extending herself. The mindwarp that she gave Kyle in Departure was obviously barely effective. He was drumming his fingers on her shoulder a few seconds after the warping.

quote:

Hmm. Eventually, Kyle saves Tess. Interesting possibilities...

Sigh. Now don't go teasing the dying remnants of my Rebounder heart. The K/T scenes were the best thing about season 2, until the writers completely killed the romance.

Laura

This is what people were saying...if FMax is Max & Tess's baby then he came back to get Liz out of present Max's life.

Or am I wrong...who has the theory on this?

I still believe thought that TEOTW was true...but I don't know...I'm starting to feel mindwarped myself!

Cantbehrit

I've just discovered your thread after an OTO from Roswell 2 suggested I come by with my observation that Mile marker 67 appeared in Max to the Max and Departure.

After scanning your thread, I'm humbled by all of your thoughtful analysis. And of course, you picked up on this one clue. Since it is so obvious to everyone, it must mean something.

I wonder if 'Mile 67' is a Nasedo suveneir. Could it be telling us that Nasedo IS Tess? In other words, did Nasedo the shapeshifter take over Tess' form at the end of in Max in the City when Max found "her" [after the scaffolding almost dropped on Max's head] and that's why the baby, if there is a baby, is dying. Because it's 'implanted' in a shapeshifter, not a hybrid? Although the idea of Max having sex with Nasedo is a nasty thought ... so I'd rather think that the whole sex thing and baby thing is a giant mindwarp. But everything else could have been managed by an evil, devious Nasedo.
Including the clues that led Liz to the manuscript and the 'bomb' that Michael had to destroy at the old house.

The thread carries fascinating theories on possible symbolisms and connections from all of you. I've enjoyed adding my small part.

Off to work.

When I say she meant to do it...I don't mean she meant to kill Alex, specifically, but that she meant to kill the victim, if anything went wrong...

That is exaclty how Necedo handle things...human life was not a big thing to him...and Tess knew this and was raised by this...see she started her "this is not home speech" on Max way before CYN, she started this in Ask Not, remember????

But the reason why she selected Alex to me is simple...she needed somebody who was close enough to the group that would do her a favor, but at the same time not close enough to her to distrust her...and then she also needed somebody that if necessary, she could kill the subject, without it affecting her original plan...

Hence Alex...Maria's death would had affected the group and Maxwell, because he became close and that would had been an automatic choice to be there to comfort Liz...and she couldn't kill Kyle, she was becoming part of his family and was the Sheriff's or former Sheriff's son..that would had caused way too much investigating....and would had cost her an automatic shut-out from the group, way too early in the game...hence she needed time...plus Kyle still had other freinds that he hung out with...

Killing Liznot even if she wanted to

So who was left, Alex! That's why I think she did it...it was murder and do what you got to do...

Zero, what is: ROTHFLMAO? Is it "Right On To Haniczka For Loving Max And Others??!" And yes, I love Reggie's hair theories.

Did you see my post regarding the Crashdown ie Granolith lights circling Liz just before Max hands her the pendant? We see the lights going around the Granolith emblem. Then we see the Crashdown lights, and then we see them going around Liz reflected in Bob's windshield. It had to be deliberate on the part of the directors because Bob could have been parked anywhere. The lights could have been around both of them, or just flashing. But they're definitely only for Liz. You mythers who thought Liz might be the triangle should be excited by this...-HH

Avaspeaks, I guess you're right. She killed Alex because he was the most expendable. Plus, if she's bringing Is back to Kvar, maybe getting rid of the Alex-pull was wise.

Grace Kel - you raise another point that has been bugging me - about the flashes! I also didn't like the fact that ANYONE can have them - but most of all they both included flashes of traveling through space and this has always raised the question of HOW the podsters could have SEEN this when they were in their pods? Okay - you will say that they are retrieved memories of their alien predecessors, BUT ... Liz saw the crash AND the hiding of the communicator - even heard the heavy breathing. NOW HOW would Max have these memories when he was all cozy in a pod somewhere? Mikey G's flashes could have been of other travel BUT I was so disappointed that the writers chose to throw those flashes in there! Flashes of his childhood made sense, but not the space travel! If they are retrieving memories of their alien past, why not of their human predecessor past, too?? The fact that Liz got these incredible flashes of space and the crash I always thought spoke to her CONNECTION somehow - and that it would be explained. The writers cheapened this by having Maria get flashes of space, too! I don't think the writers thought this out, and just threw them in there because they looked cool - with no thought to their meaning! Grrr!!

Don't get me wrong - I love Maria and Mikey G - but as GK said - for a completely different reason than why I love Max and Liz! Just that they were such opposites, etc. Oh well - the sleeping together - though I agree with Reggie's objections - was okay with me, though it could have been portrayed in a more responsible way.

BTW - I think - from what I've read - that there were spoilers that played into what we had been speculated, and that is why Mc. C thought we would love Departure - but all of it turned out to be false rumors circulated to "please" spoiled Dreamers. Now that makes NO SENSE to me - circulate false rumors that your biggest fan based loves, and then let them down?? Why not just not circulate anything at all! I'm just glad I decided to not be spoiled for the last part of the season - I think I would have felt very manipulated and angry - angrier than I was with the Tex/baby storyline!

GK - I'm also concerned about the failure to wrap up the Tess storyline, because it still doesn't resolve the big issue Liz had with Max all year - waiting for him to remember Tess and his love for her. All it does it drags it out some more. Okay - sure - he doesn't love her - now - he thinks - ... - but do we really want to spend an entire next Season watching Max try to figure out how to get his son back, and watch Liz tag along?? I DON'T! Plus, I still need some resolution to WHY Max acted like such a Jerk and A$$ to Liz and Iz in those weeks beforehand. Stress is just not a good enough reason for me for him to redeem himself in my eyes! Liz and Iz deserve a better explanation! ANd GK - Liz was the second string all season, and unfortunately, if we don't see some resolution soon in Season 3, she will continue to be second string to Max's quest. Instead of them working together - as I would love to see! - she will be working for him on his quest for his son!

(When did I get so negative!! Sorry! )

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

I means: "Rolling On The Floor, Laughing My A$$ Off!" It can also be ROTFLM Head O!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

They didn't get cancelled so we saw that one...enough said, so all the mindwarping couldn't and won't probably be explained till S3, just not in full...but sense they are having a S3, tehy have to have something for the season...that's what I'm thinking.

As far as flashes...the aliens can connect with people...period.And MIkey G. seeing Maria like that was not necessarily a flash or traveling thru space and time, but I took it as how Mike truly sees Maria, as a glowing celestial body....

But enough about M&M...this is my feelings on what I would like to see with Max and Liz for season three...I think it would reclaim the specialness that they have.

I would like to see Liz and Max talking more in Season3...I would like to see them also help each other more with each other's powers and reclaim some of the tenderness that they lost with each other...it's still there but they need to talk more in private, maybe by the Pod Chamber...to help him grow and to help Liz realize how much of a positive influence she is in his life...I don't think she or he knows that yet...

That's what I think is missing...the long talks, maybe by the moonlight or practicing their powers with each other...let me see her wipe away his tears for a change and I want to see him cry for all the pain he has went thru and for what he caused her...

I want her to explain what she did, adn why she did it...

Then I would like to see a scene where they do a reverse connection on both of themselves at the same time, so we can still see the "soul" connection and so they can both see the pain they caused each other...then let them cry in each other's arms and wipe away each other's tears...seriously...

I think Avaspeaks is right. We need to see real COMMUNICATION between Max and Liz. If anything, S2 was about how their amazing gift to communicate-even without words, was completely broken down. Now that gift is almost non-existant. I will be very UNhappy if S3 begins as if they've had the summer to work all that out and now here we go with a clean slate.

Another random thought: maybe S3 will reveal an arc about FM's and F'Liz's past and lead up to their decision in EOTW (ala Star Wars going back in time and playing catch-up.)? That may be difficult to attract new viewers, but it certainly would give opportunity to explain a few things... -HH

I didn't mind the cementing that M and M did except I thought Michael SHOULD have told Maria he was leaving b4------and I didn't particularly like her LACK of REACTION to him leaving--it was like oh you are leaving, oh!!! Hello she had a much harsher reaction to whether he was going to give her a xmas present on xmas day!!!!!!

My my you guys have been busy over this Memorial Day weekend. Unfortunately, I don't have time to read everything right now so.. just marking my spot!

Anyway! The V shape of the remaining "squad" is really making me think. Michael is at the far left holding Maria (makes me think symbollically they are now one), Liz is in front of Michael. Kyle is at the back right with Isabel in front of him. Max is at the center of the point. The pictures at the Crashdown are really great I just don't know how to get them here for a visual.

What are your ideas for this particular alignment? To me it is as tho' Kyle and Liz have been incorporated into the V now that they have been changed. Maria is still on the outside of the V but connected thru Michael. It now has 5 bonified points.

It's just fascinating me. I had always imagined Liz as the center. Does it symbolize Max taking back the lead? Is this the rank of importance? Does it symbolize Liz and Isabel as equals to Max? Just putting my thoughts out there.

Anyway! The V shape of the remaining "squad" is really making me think. Michael is at the far left holding Maria (makes me think symbollically they are now one), Liz is in front of Michael. Kyle is at the back right with Isabel in front of him. Max is at the center of the point. The pictures at the Crashdown are really great I just don't know how to get them here for a visual.

What are your ideas for this particular alignment? To me it is as tho' Kyle and Liz have been incorporated into the V now that they have been changed. Maria is still on the outside of the V but connected thru Michael. It now has 5 bonified points.

It's just fascinating me. I had always imagined Liz as the center. Does it symbolize Max taking back the lead? Is this the rank of importance? Does it symbolize Liz and Isabel as equals to Max? Just putting my thoughts out there.

I can see Liz and Isabel being Max's equals...they both represent very big parts of his life that Max both balance and recify Max...his sister(family) and Liz(love) and then Mike(his freind) now Max has in HIS constallation, family, freinds, and love.

Also, in regards to the constellation alignement, if you noticed, at the end of the show when Isabel asks Max what they are going to do...the camera pans to her then back to Liz...as to represent the two most important parts of his balance??? What do you think???

I've never liked Tess, and I don't mean to bash, but I couldn't figure out if she was intentionally making wierd faces sometimes or if she was just a bad actress. We now know that she squints her face/closes eyes when she midwarps and we know how powerfull these mindwarps can be. Has anyone gone back to look at any of the Tess faces to try to see when she could have been windwarping? I mean, the not-obvious ones? And if this could account for how psycho max has been treating Liz and Iz? Just a thought, and because of my aversion to all things tess, I can't do this research myself...

I appreciate any help, even if it is to forward me to a more appropriate thread.

Thanks!
tab

Notice that not only are Max, Liz and Isabel all in black tops/khaki pants (signifying their royalty?) and the other 3 in brown, but note their positions relative to Max. Liz is closer than Isabel; the Queen is closer than the Princess. Michael/Maria, whom I agree have been blended together, are also closer than Kyle; the 2nd-in-Command is closer than the...whatever role Kyle will play (any thoughts there?). So the "New Order" seems to be:
Max-----King
Liz-----Queen
Isabel-----Princess
M&M-----2nd-in-Command
Kyle----Advisor? 3rd-in-Command?

Additional thoughts:
---since Michael is NOT getting invloved with Isabel, technically he's not Royalty anymore. Perhaps this is why Tess was not so concerned about it when he decided to stay, b/c he doesn't actually have any Royal blood.

---If the baby is Kyle's, he will have blue eyes. It's just barely possible for Max to produce a blue-eyed child (if one of his donor's parents had blue eyes), but I think they would go for the lack of ambiguity and make Max's son dark-eyed, therefore the baby's eye colour is going to be important (assuming there really is a baby ).

Nemo Good catch on the mm67 meaning the murder took place in a different location than where the body was found! I spec-ed when Alex died that maybe he was killed earlier and then set up for the accident, to explain why he was so cold, and I got shot down

tab I haven't had a chance yet, but I intend to go back and watch everything from MITC on with an eye to Tess specifically. If I find anything I'll let you know
~Tas

BUT, I too (Avaspeaks) saw that in Michael's flashes he saw Maria as his "universe" not that Maria was seeing "the" universe through his eyes...get it?

So Liz WAS seeing things that others had never seen before and THAT is totally different.

As far as the baby goes...I'm beginning to agree more and more with the idea that it is Kyle's. It does make since and that would explain Tess's prom wish that someone posted here. Also, she was probably pregnant on prom night and that was the night it all started to go down with Max...but its also the night that Kyle "conveniently" started to think of Tess as a sister.

Hmmm...

Cantbehrit

Avaspeaks - I sure hope you are right about the two possibilities for Departure. I wasn't spoiled, so picked up what I know after the fact. I do like your take on the Maria flashes! It makes more sense to view them that way.

tab - I know we often think of Tess squinting when she mindwarps, BUT last year I can think of 2 important occassions when she did not squint during significant mindwarps of Max. One was at the beginning of an episode (names are jumbled in my mind) where Max goes back to the rear of the Crashdown with Liz, and while kissing Liz hallucinates that he is kissing Tess - when he looks out of the door window at Tess - she looks at him but appears to be in normal conversation. Then the other is the scene in the biology class when Max is told to move to be Tess' partner. The entire class watches as he almost burns his sleeve off - and they would have noticed Tess squinting her eyes. Both were times that she seemed to be normal, but was obviously mindwarping Max. The Kiss in the Rain is still questionable since I think Max actually kissed Tess though was under mind control, not warp, there - with Liz witnessing it. Just like when Tess "controlled" Max when he accompanied her to the desert.

I realize that there isn't a lot of continuity in character with respect to Tess between Season 1 and 2 and within Season 2 - but I do think that there are a number of instances that Tess was using mind warp and/or control that did not involve the squinty face contortion for us to assume that she could have been using it on Max without it being so obvious in the last 6 episodes. Okay - that was much longer than I planned!

I love all the analysis of the last scene with the Scooby Gang in a V formation! I do think that the scene with Liz looking over Max's shoulder like the poster from Season 1 was deliberate, and was appreciated from me! It will be interesting to see what the publicity posters, etc. for Season 3 include. It will give us an indication of the path the writers plan to travel. I think - if you look at the Season 2 poster and TV adds - it was obvious we were going to have the focus on the 4 aliens - Liz and the other humans were either non-existant or pushed into the background. So, time will tell what they decide to do with Season 3 Publicity. Rehhawk and others I've seen have done amazing work, and I wish they were consulted!

Okay - got to eat lunch! I apologize if I've been a bit negative, but I keep having these nagging questions pop into my mind! "Bad obsession! Bad obsession!"

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Interesting thought about the colors. It is odd that they would have two female actors in almost identical outfits. Distinction is usually important to them.

I'm just having trouble with the whole Tess is pregnant scenario. I don't have any thoughts on that at all! I just don't care who's baby it is. I just want that storyline to go away over the summer!

Interesting thought about the colors. It is odd that they would have two female actors in almost identical outfits. Distinction is usually important to them.

I'm just having trouble with the whole Tess is pregnant scenario. I don't have any thoughts on that at all! I just don't care who's baby it is. I just want that storyline to go away over the summer!

quote:Originally posted by haniczka:
...what is: ROTHFLMAO? Is it "Right On To Haniczka For Loving Max And Others??!"
quote:Originally posted by haniczka:
...Avaspeaks, I guess you're right. She killed Alex because he was the most expendable. Plus, if she's bringing Is back to Kvar, maybe getting rid of the Alex-pull was wiseI think you guys have got it figured out--I've been baffled.

quote:Originally posted by Zero:
..., I still need some resolution to WHY Max acted like such a Jerk and A$$ to Liz and Iz in those weeks beforehand. Stress is just not a good enough reason for me for him to redeem himself in my eyes! Liz and Iz deserve a better explanation! ANd GK - Liz was the second string all season...[/B]Zero, it was Stepford Max of the Mindwarps. Definitely. From way back in the crashdown last season when Tess first did it to him.
And about second string Liz: this maybe out in the back parking lot (as the CHADers like to refer to theories that aren't even in left field ), but I see Liz PLAYING second string as metaphorically analagous to God taking the role of man as Jesus. Not that I think Liz is God, but she is a type of saviour, no doubt about it.

quote:Originally posted by haniczka:
...they all wear black...Everyone other than Max's immediate family is wearing brown...[/B]Brown would symbolize earth.

tab, EdR has to go with what the directors tell her, and they aren't always the same people from ep to ep. I thought her distress when Max tried to heal Alex was very impressive, and didn't make sense to me until after Departure when we learned what her role was. I wonder still if she was sincerely sorry Alex was dead (it did look like she threw him down without too much force, and then he died), or if she was thinking Max would get flashes of her from Alex.

When you post a reply, there's a form you fill out. On the left is a HTML that says "BB Code is ON". Click on that, for all sorts of posting instructions.

I thought that the heart with the arrow and "Max" was deliberately drawn by the prop guys and sanctioned by the director or by the director to illustrate that Tess was going to (fatally) shoot F Max (future Max) through the heart. I think this because 1) Max's smile when he saw it was less than whole-hearted (no pun intended) and 2) Usually teenage girls and guys link their own initials with the initials of the object of their desire rather than just putting his when drawing hearts with arrows.

Okay, so then, I am thinking that maybe she thinks she's succeeded at eliminating Future Max. Yes, I know, she didn't officially know about Future Max--maybe it's just a clue from the director, and isn't supposed to indicate that Tess knows anything, except that she has been determined to be evil by TPTB, and so they are having her draw a heart with an arrow etc.
And don't you think the top of the box around the F looks like a king's crown?
Surely at least GraceKel or Nemo can see that one?!

I know what other's have said regarding my pet theory ~ and they are valid points, I don't disagree... But I keep coming back to the fact Tess told Liz (regarding mindwarps), "Sometimes it's easier to do that, then to make someone see what's right in front of her eyes."

Future Max was a mindwarp...

This explains ~

1) The differences in the granolith
2) The differences with the key hole

Also, if Future Max was real, why didn't present day Max say anything about the other shadow that spyed him and Tess during the Steinbeck review?? Maybe because present day Max never saw the other shadow.

Future Max was a mindwarp on us the audience and on Liz.... And Tess knows it too!

I know what other's have said regarding my pet theory ~ and they are valid points, I don't disagree... But I keep coming back to the fact Tess told Liz (regarding mindwarps), "Sometimes it's easier to do that, then to make someone see what's right in front of her eyes."

Future Max was a mindwarp...

This explains ~

1) The differences in the granolith
2) The differences with the key hole

Also, if Future Max was real, why didn't present day Max say anything about the other shadow that spyed him and Tess during the Steinbeck review?? Maybe because present day Max never saw the other shadow.

Future Max was a mindwarp on us the audience and on Liz.... And Tess knows it too!

tab - Please don't apologize - I was actually showing instances that support that it might have involved mindwarps of Max that weren't obvious to the casual observer looking for the squinty eyes. I was trying to show spots that support that Tess could have been mindwarping Max without others realizing it. I hope that makes sense. Please don't ever think I'm shooting something down. I have been a bit negative recently - which I'm sorry for - but I always love when people bring up new or different ideas or perspectives!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

About that line at the end when Max asks Tess what would have happened to himself on Antar, and she doesn't answer, and it seems to imply that he would be killed, it reminds me of Maria's line to Liz in SH about the female spider biting off the males after they mate.

Thanks for humoring me, Nemo. It could also be the King in his castle--it looks a little like a Rook from a chess game. But I really did see a crown when I first looked at it. Now I know how you and GraceKel feel when you see something that seems so obvious and the rest of us are "oh, that's nice."

How is that for optimism!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Also less convincingly I thought there was also a RED F behind Tess in the eraser room with Kyle the night of the prom---racked my brain trying to come up with what this could mean---so when I saw the F on the NEWSPAPER naturally I thought all three are linked somehow.
I think there could be something to your interpretation of the F in the newspaper but I guess I was still holding out for more clues LOL!!

I forget who mentioned about female spiders biting the males heads off after they mate-----wow I forgot about that one---wow that makes total sense now doesn't it? Couldn't understand what meaning it would have with Liz but with TESS well......

I can't say I am totally convinced that Future Max was a mindwarp because they showed Future Liz with Future Max at the beginning--if they hadn't I would believe this one in a second but....they showed them.

Thanks all for putting up with my ranting--my dreamer heart is breaking with this show--I just don't like to see my heroes falling into the pits so completely---I hate seeing the bad guy win and the thoughts of another season as depressing as this one has been I do not think is good for my mental health I have taken Liz and Max straight to my heart so....its very painful.

Quite frankly if it weren't for all of you....I think I would totally give up!!!!!

GraceKel---

This is a valid point. I guess I can just assume the FutureMax and FutureLiz were created by Tess to mindwarp the audience.

I'll bring up another valid point against FutureMax as a mindwarp theory... In VLV Max had a vision of his marriage with Liz. (But as the EOTW timeline never happened, perhaps what he saw was his real marriage instead?)

Did you read my take on Liz's martyr role on the last page? That she's a type of savior--and that her life is a metaphor for God taking the form of a human. I am not saying she's god or an alien or any of that, just that she's a type of savior who embodies humility.

It's Maria who brings up the female spider biting of the male's head after mating--she brings it up in the car when she's driving Liz home after she finds M&L making out in Michael's apartment in SH.

Granted, this theory is imperfect because of the opening scene with FMax & FLiz. However, it is a better solution to the problems of season 2 then anything else I can think of.

First off, Future Max played right into Tess's hands way too conveniently. If Liz hadn't let Max go, he never would have cared a hill of beans about Tess. Without FMax, Tess could never have fulfilled her mission. Second, it would solve the problems of the inconsistencies of the Granolith. (Though not all of them, because we still don't know why Nicholas, et al would want it, or why the attendees at the summitt were so shocked to learn it was on Earth.)

Thirdly, since they essentially wasted the FMax plot line by not following up on it, (except for the constant reminder that Liz "slept" with Kyle...) it would be better, IMHO, to use it to show how evil and manipulative Tess has been the whole season, "behind the scenes."

Either way, at this point, we have CHADS.

Laura

The black v-necks are knawing at me. Why did Tess attempt to give Max a black V-neck, presumably like those worn by Liz and Is in the finale? Is this the cloth of nobility on Antar? I actually went back to see what Howie/Kvar was wearing in Destiny, and he's sporting a black collared button down shirt(Digression:I never noticed that he's sitting in a car with a seat-belt before. I know it means little at this point, but if Howie was meant to depict Kvar, than I guess he's here and not there.). Anyway, Tess gives Max a black V-neck that he never wears, while Liz and Isabel wear theirs simultaneously. What's up with that?

If shapeshifter is correct and brown symbolizes earth, then why is Tess wearing brown for the first time in this episode? I think maybe Max should not have sent her away. She's always been in blue before and hasn't fit in. But I think she should have accepted her place next to Kyle, pregnant or not. And maybe the brown does symbolize she is carrying Kyle's, and not Max's baby. -HH

I know I keep saying this, but FM and FL may very well be quite clueless on the extensiveness of Tess and Nicko/Kvar and others' mind-warp abilities. At the end of S1 we only had an inkling and if Max got himself all involved with Liz and nothing else, and Tess just left, there was a whole world of mindwarp potential at her fingertips.

I say FM is under the power of a mindwarp, not that he is one himself. I maintain that's what Liz realized too late when she screamed "Max!" in the intro of EOTW. -HH

Just wanted to start some discussions here, and i know that this was already a thread, but what do u guys think about Liz and her powers? (especially about the whole tess mindwarping thing not being used on liz).
I personally believe that liz has gotten powers to block mindwarps, kinda like brody. I also noticed that Tess never tried to help liz "explore" her powers...hmmmmm, does this mean anything important???

My beliefs run along the same lines HH. It wouldn't surprise me if there was mindwarping on either FMax and/or FLiz for them to deduce that Tess was needed - and suggested, but not right out said, that she had to be with Max. Since EOTW has been blown wide open... Tess is "needed" in the group acc. to EOTW, but then she leaves (again) in DEP! If Tess caused EOTW, but it's still not kosher with *fate*... then fate will rearrange things for possibly the SAME events to occur that happened in the EOTW timeline (namely, Tess leaving and Max/Liz together). All else could be up in the air... or maybe not?

If this "Nasedo plan" wasn't some sort of fabrication... then it wouldn't surprise me at all if Tess "left" in that alternate EOTW timeline and immediately sided with *the enemy* (they're not *her* enemies as we know and she would had to have known it in the EOTW timeline as well). Tess "left" Roswell because of how Max treated her and his rejection (acc. to FMax)... so Tess (who was willing to sacrifice the podsters in THIS timeline), joins up with the Skins to get revenge on Max & crew... and/or be amongst a group where she's *wanted*? Although, what I'm sort of amused by the timeline post-EOTW, because of Max, Tess leaves AGAIN. Max TELLS her to go. In the EOTW timeline, Max's behavior pushes Tess away, but I'm not sure if he ever actually told her to leave (he might have, but who knows). Anyway, in both timelines, because of Max, Tess leaves.

Whether or not EOTW was caused by Tess, we learn -after the events of DEP- that possibly Tess really IS NOT needed? Liz drastically *changed* the future, but only to come back to the same end (sort of)... Tess leaves (however, this time, pregnant), Liz is with Max (or left with the possibility of a reunion). Tess isn't needed in this timeline or any timeline?

Although it almost seems Liz - who made this huge sacrifice which has given her a great deal of pain - has been punished for this sacrifice because Max slept with Tess and got her pregnant. Tess also MURDERED one of her closest friends! I certainly hope Liz is given her due props SOON... because, to date, she's gotten nothing but GRIEF from the things she did in EOTW. Things she did to SAVE everyone, to save the friggin' planet!! HOW is she repaid? Max sleeps with Tess. Alex is murdered by Tess. Tess leaves ANYWAY, but this time pregnant with Max's baby! RIGHT. Is this timeline better or worse than the last one?? However, there is a small part of me saying it IS better... it just doesn't look that way right now. I just refuse to believe we'd be forced to watch poor Liz go through the pain of EOTW and afterward to be rewarded with the tex and (alien) teen pregnancy.

I'm wondering if Tess eventually murdered Alex (maybe Maria) in that EOTW timeline too? Since we're now faced with a timeline not that much different from the other... it wouldn't surprise me if certain events from this timeline ALSO happened in the last one (just in a different order and possibly worse because Tess would have had the "enemy" openly helping her). Tess ALSO murdered Alex in the EOTW timeline, but perhaps FMax/FLiz never found out (which is why FMax never said anything, he just didn't know what Tess did, he didn't even know she defected?), Liz never investigated, hence never found out Tess did it? Alex wouldn't have died however until AFTER Liz's wedding, since Alex attended Liz's wedding reception (unless we're to believe Tess killed Alex, but then Alex was replaced with an enemy shapeshifter of some kind - Kivar?)? The EOTW timeline, Tess eliminated all of those who Liz cared about (blaming her for "stealing" Max and ruining Nasedo's plan)? FMax *might* have known this, but chose not to tell Liz about it. FMax believed because of his rejection of Tess, it angered her enough to side with the enemy and seek vengeance... but FMax DID NOT know Tess was ALWAYS working for the enemy? After EOTW, the podsters discover Nasedo's plan - the EOTW timeline, they never discovered it?

The constants with the EOTW timeline and the this current one... Tess is gone but Max/Liz are together (or left with the possibility of being together). Liz stays, Tess leaves. Max and Liz are still in love with each other, although now there relationship is strained (although it could have been strained in the alternate timeline too - god knows what war would do to a marriage, especially if one of you is arguably the leader of one of the main factions). Perhaps Max believed he loved Tess (or some form of it, :cough:mindwarp:cough: ), it's insubstantial. Max has reason to hate Tess now because of what she did to Alex. FMax didn't seem to hate Tess, but actually felt sorry for her (blaming himself for Tess leaving and eventually causing the "end of the world")? In reality, Tess was ALWAYS supposed to leave?

Something else that bugs me from EOTW is that Tess and Kyle would have trimmed each other's lamps (arguably), until Liz interrupted. Liz WOULD NOT have interrupted in that alternate EOTW timeline because FMax never went to her, Liz would have had NO need to go to Tess for "help" to break up with Max, hence WOULD NOT have interrupted Tess and Kyle. Could Tess have left pregnant in that alternate EOTW timeline as well... but in that lifetime, with Kyle's baby?? If Tess left pregnant in that EOTW timeline with KYLE's baby... who's to say that isn't different now? Since seemingly we came to - more or less - the SAME end?! Tess left pregnant with Kyle's baby in the EOTW timeline... in this timeline, she once again leaves pregnant with Kyle's baby! FMax never found out Tess was pregnant, the current Max believes Tess is pregnant with HIS baby (but it's not, it's *once again*, Kyle's baby). Tess sleeps with Kyle, gets pregnant by him, then warps him to make him see her as a sister.

I'm still thinking that (Tess getting pregnant by Kyle and not Max - current timeline) has something to do with the Destiny Book translation for whatever reason. The Destiny Book, which also possibly was NEVER translated in the EOTW timeline or at least not anytime around high school (in any case, probably not by Tess). FMax/FLiz could have had it translated much later... even so, Tess might not have ever learned what it said in it's entirety (the granilith instructions aside, it said something she NEVER expected)? As soon as she found out... she took the necessary steps in order to get the podsters, particularly Max, OFF the planet and in a hurry. Something in it scared her enough to push the plan in overdrive and go through with not only deceiving Max/podsters (even if it meant their deaths), but also kill Alex? WHAT does that damn Destiny Book say?!

If the events from EOTW didn't change anything... besides revealing Tess as a liar, traitor and murderer (which, imo, she always was or became) ... then Liz and Max ARE seemingly destined for one another. Liz changed the future for the main reason to push Max away... but they're together ANYWAY (more or less) by DEPARTURE. EOTW's purpose WAS NOT for Liz and Max to break up (that's seemingly NOT what fate has planned for them), but to discover what Tess was/is (or at least a start)? Max/Liz haven't even discovered half of what Tess is yet?

Melodious

I really feel that that was real but that because of all the holes in the season nothing is really looking real right now.

QUESTION - who has been posting the theory that Tess's baby is Kyle's?? I think that I like this and I'm starting to really think it's true. But someone here didn't quite get what I was saying and maybe I said it wrong. I also can't find the post so please explain....thanks!

Cantbehrit

I know what other's have said regarding my pet theory ~ and they are valid points, I don't disagree... But I keep coming back to the fact Tess told Liz (regarding mindwarps), "Sometimes it's easier to do that, then to make someone see what's right in front of her eyes."

Future Max was a mindwarp...

This explains ~

1) The differences in the granolith
2) The differences with the key hole

Also, if Future Max was real, why didn't present day Max say anything about the other shadow that spyed him and Tess during the Steinbeck review?? Maybe because present day Max never saw the other shadow.

Future Max was a mindwarp on us the audience and on Liz.... And Tess knows it too!

[/B]

OK, if FM is a mindwarp (which I really don't think he was) explain the wedding flashback in VLV and also why Liz warned Max that the Granolith is too powerful to fall into the wrong hands, thus preventing Max from handing over the Granolith to Nicholas. If FM was a mindwarp from Tess, why would these two events have ocurred as a result of FM?

Also, I don't think they would have shown that first scene in EOTW if it was a mindwarp. It doesn't make any sense.

I think what we're seeing is actually a case of the writer's flying by the seat of their pants. I went back the other night to go over the S2 primer on WB.com and if you listen to JK's commentary on CYN, for example, it really does seem like they haven't thought this all out in advance. Which would explain all the inconsistencies and gaping holes. Aarrggghh. Hopefully JK knows how his series is resembling a slice of Swiss Cheese these days, and has enough sense to turn that Swiss into Cheddar. He has the perfect opportunity in Season 3 to close up those holes. Here's to hoping....

{~}:}

Edited to Add: I think in EOTW it's important to note that FM didn't trust Tess like he trust Liz... and I quote...

FUTURE MAX: Because of me, and how I treated her. And it turned out Tess was critical to our survival. The four of us - Michael, Isabel, Tess, and I...we made a complete unit. We all had different gifts, and with one of us missing, we weren't as strong, and everything fell apart.

LIZ: So, um...you want me to help you and Tess get together?

FUTURE MAX: Yes.

LIZ: Why don't you just go to Tess?

FUTURE MAX: It's you I trust. It's you I have faith in, and because it's not just about getting me close to Tess. I need you to help me fall out of love with you.

Even here is an example of how the writer's weren't really paying attention. You would think in that first timeline, especially since Max and Tess never got together, and if Tess was really evil all along and had this "deal" with Nasedo and Khivar (mindwarp!!!) she would've shown her evil side then for sure!!!!! How could they not have known Tess was evil in that first timeline? It doesn't make any sense....

UNLESS, this is further proof of my original theory, that the deal is a mindwarp. Maybe in that first timeline Nicholas never mindwarped Tess in MITC, because she was already gone from Roswell and didn't go to the summit with Max...hence, Tess was never really evil, just mindwarped. This could be further proof that something happened in MITC... how else can you explain why FM wouldn't have known Tess was evil in that first timeline? NO MITC, no mindwarp.

Does anyone else see that????

Melodious1 how do you manage to make such sense of everything ? It just kinda of ties so many things together CHAD free . OK so, for the sake of curiosity and peace, where is this kosher Nascedo bible of yours? I must read it now ??

She was gone from Roswell because she was possibly already on Nikolas' side.

If we're to assume for a few seconds that the Nasedo plan is authentic (I do feel it was) and not a warp... Tess would have always had the potential to fully defect. She's been more or less on the enemy's side the whole time, I do think it was a matter of her actually going through the plan. After EOTW, I feel she decided to push it forward - as opposed to assimilating into the group (which wasn't going to happen anyway because even in the alternate EOTW timeline, she was NEVER supposed to be part of the group seemingly or was made a *black sheep* due to what Nasedo involved her in) - she preferred Nasedo's plan.

quote:how else can you explain why FM wouldn't have known Tess was evil in that first timeline?

How do we know he *didn't* know she was "evil".... or perhaps to FMax... "misguided" or very, very jaded and hurt? FMax possibly believed that what he did to Tess not only caused her to leave, but ALSO join the "other side". He KNEW what she *could* be, but he blames himself for what she became? I can see FMax NOT telling Liz about this...

"Yeah Liz, you have to help me fall out of love with you so Tess doesn't leave all hurt and join the enemies out of spite to get back at me. You also have to help me fall out of love with you so you can push me towards Tess who has the potential of killing not only Michael and Isabel... but who also possibly killed Alex and Maria and everyone else you love. Give up 14 years of marriage to me - your soulmate - and push me to a murdering bit** who DID turn to *the dark side* once already (even though it was my fault). What do you say??"

I can very well see FMax leaving out the detail of Tess 'turning' "evil". When in truth - which he DIDN'T know - she was always working for the enemy.

I don't really like using the term "evil" to describe anyone. It's such a definitive term. I don't think Tess is "evil" per se... some of her actions could be deemed such... but is SHE evil? I don't think so. Just REALLY misguided... not only by Nasedo, but also the Skins. Do I think she's been mindwarped to do anything? Maybe, but I honestly doubt it (sorry Meta). I do think she's been a willing participant for most of what's been going down (or at least that's how it will be explained I feel).

She was introduced as a bad apple, that wasn't in the forefront in some of the eps in Season 2... but I do feel the "evil" was always there. Kind of like the mafia (or how they're portrayed in pop culture, The Sopranos, The Godfather, etc)... they have this great love/honor for their family and friends, very tight knit, many mob bosses are also depicted as suave and charismatic... but at the same time, make their living through crime. Tess gives off the impression of being trustworthy (at least to the podsters? I don't think Liz ever really trusted her), loving, supportive, a beautiful temptress who "will be there for eternity"... when in truth, she's deceiving them all along (knowingly and willingly), to justify her own means (go home, get back at Max for NOT loving her, his "wife", and loving a human?).

Melodious

It's Maria who brings up the female spider biting of the male's head after mating--she brings it up in the car when she's driving Liz home after she finds M&L making out in Michael's apartment in SH.

Shapeshifter - I love you ideas on Liz being the savior - it plays well with my "Key" theory.

Also - on the Spider - the song playing in Departure after they send BOB to it firey death is a song about a spider spinning it web! Very pointed as to what Tess has going at the time - pulling the web tighter around the Pod Squad! So - good for the writers if this was planned! Tess was more a black widow than a snake (since some of you may remember that I learned from our local retile man last Fall that "snakes are our friends!" - so Tess is not a snake). Tess - alone or with help as most of us suspect - spun her web and caught her prey tightly in it - fortunately, Liz came along to prevent them from being totally devoured - though the spider left her mark on everyone.

quote:Thirdly, since they essentially wasted the FMax plot line by not following up on it, (except for the constant reminder that Liz "slept" with Kyle...) it would be better, IMHO, to use it to show how evil and manipulative Tess has been the whole season, "behind the scenes."

Laura - I agree with you that the FMax storyline was not played out how it should have been, but I still believe it was "real" - but that, as with most time travel stories, even with surgical precession you still can't foresee what the slightest change in the past might effect in the future. In this case, the death of Alex and the "early" revelation that Tess was a plotting, evil scum (sorry Reggie )! I don't think FM and FL foresaw this coming, or they would have changed the past in the way they did. I think when Tess/Nicko's plan didn't work, Kivar sent his forces to take over and destroy Earth in Scenario 1. Now we have Scenario 2 - with Tex/baby - but I still think that this Scenario has made Liz a stronger allie - and Kyle and Maria, too in their own ways. Plus, the "evil within" - in this case Tess being the evil within the group - was revealed, and hopefully, the Scooby Gang will learn from this! I have a major issue with all the CHADS (I probably would have fun on that thread ), but I'm trying to resolve to accept them and move forward to Season 3.

One thing I found interesting - in our local paper, the TV critic was discussing the renewed shows that probably will not survive next Season (Roswell was not among them), and she said something that really struck me (which I've heard before, but never registered much before):

"Rule No. 3 of TV production: Having a baby is a cry of desperation."

Okay, so is JK desperate? I don't think so - yet - so I hope that this will be taken to heart and that the Tex/baby does prove to be fake!

Mel - Something you said made me think about something that was really missing in Season 2. Sure there are lots of stuff, but one of the things I really want to see more of is some humor and lighter moments. This season - especially with respect to Liz, but with all the characters - was so dark and sad often. Even Maria and Mikey G - my favorite couple for humor - had few funny moments together. I sure hope that the wit and humor of Season 1 are brought back in to little up the atmosphere on the show, but if the focus is Max searching for his son - well, not much humor in that!

If the baby is real, let it be Kyle's!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

"Yeah Liz, you have to help me fall out of love with you so Tess doesn't leave all hurt and join the enemies out of spite to get back at me. You also have to help me fall out of love with you so you can push me towards Tess who has the potential of killing not only Michael and Isabel... but who also possibly killed Alex and Maria and everyone else you love. Give up 14 years of marriage to me - your soulmate - and push me to a murdering bit** who DID turn to *the dark side* once already (even though it was my fault). What do you say??"

I can very well see FMax leaving out the detail of Tess 'turning' "evil". When in truth - which he DIDN'T know - she was always working for the enemy.

I don't really like using the term "evil" to describe anyone. It's such a definitive term. I don't think Tess is "evil" per se... some of her actions could be deemed such... but is SHE evil? I don't think so. Just REALLY misguided... not only by Nasedo, but also the Skins. Do I think she's been mindwarped to do anything? Maybe, but I honestly doubt it (sorry [b]Meta). I do think she's been a willing participant for most of what's been going down (or at least that's how it will be explained I feel).

She was introduced as a bad apple, that wasn't in the forefront in some of the eps in Season 2... but I do feel the "evil" was always there. Kind of like the mafia (or how they're portrayed in pop culture, The Sopranos, The Godfather, etc)... they have this great love/honor for their family and friends, very tight knit, many mob bosses are also depicted as suave and charismatic... but at the same time, make their living through crime. Tess gives off the impression of being trustworthy (at least to the podsters? I don't think Liz ever really trusted her), loving, supportive, a beautiful temptress who "will be there for eternity"... when in truth, she's deceiving them all along (knowingly and willingly), to justify her own means (go home, get back at Max for NOT loving her, his "wife", and loving a human?).

Melodious

You know, we don't know that Tess, in that first timeline, actually went to the 'Darkside'. All we know is that she left...so, IMHO, it could really go either way. Although, I definitely think there is A LOT of HARD EVIDENCE to support my theories. Evidence that was presented FOR REAL through the show and silverhandprint.com. Of course, I could be completely, 100% wrong, but without having to re-write a lot of the back story, my theories fit in with what has been presented thus far.

I highly doubt that the FM storyline was a mindwarp. I think having the whole EOTW storyline be a mindwarp makes absolutely no sense and would be the hugest cop-out ever in the history of television.

Again, I went back and checked out the primer for S2, and from everything that is given to us on there, it doesn't look to me like JK had Tess penned as the total enemy all along.

Anyhow, we can spec this to death and come up with a million different theories about what happened. However, we're not going to know until we are told in S3. I for one think the whole Nasedo deal was a mindwarp, the baby is real (though possibly not Max's?) and Tess, while not entirely innocent, is not entirely guilty either.

If they try and explain everything away with the mindwarp storylines, I'm going to have to seriously reconsider if Roswell is something I want to watch.

As it is, when I re-read all the posts and speculations I realize how ridiculous this storyline has already been -- and has the potential to become.

Anyhow, that's my thought for the day. Not feeling too positive these days, although I can't wait to see what happens in S3.

{~}:}

p.s. I find it really hard to believe that in the first timeline FM didn't KNOW that Tess was on the enemies side. And why on earth, if this was the case, would he force Liz to push him and Tess together without letting her know that very pertinent fact. What if somewhere down the line in that second timeline, after FM disaappeared, something went wrong and Max walked away from Tess? If he knew that Tess would go to the 'darkside' and the whole plan of EOTW was to get Tess back on the goodside...wouldn't it make sense for FM to tell Liz this, so in case something happened in the future she would be able to do something about it...to warn Max or whatever.

It doesn't make any sense. If FM KNEW about Tess being evil, he would have told Liz. Just in case.

You could be wrong Meta, but then of course you could be right. Although, so could I. I do feel that my theories and that of others are very substantiated, just as yours are. Which could be the exact problem in this storyline... there are so many inconsistencies, CHADs and gaping holes in the plot that the story can basically go anywhere. (although I do think I'm right he he).

quote:Again, I went back and checked out the primer for S2, and from everything that is given to us on there, it doesn't look to me like JK had Tess penned as the total enemy all along.

I can't get in JK's head and KNOW what he had planned for Tess. However, I do have it on pretty good authority that in the END OF THE WORLD script, at one point or another, Future Max right out said that Tess joined the enemy. This was obviously cut (I don't know whether it was ever filmed, but I'm fairly certain this was in the script). It really wouldn't surprise me if JK had some intention, possibly even before EOTW, to portray Tess as a none-to-nice character (even if it is, as you say Meta, she's certainly not innocent, but she's not all bad either - but has definitely done some pretty bad things). We learn in DEPARTURE about this plan Nasedo made 40 years ago which Tess went along with? Leaving us to our own assumptions to the purpose of EOTW and how much Future Max really knew.

quote:I highly doubt that the FM storyline was a mindwarp. I think having the whole EOTW storyline be a mindwarp makes absolutely no sense and would be the hugest cop-out ever in the history of television.

I also do not think FMax was a mindwarp, that whole beginning scene with FLiz/FMax/Granilith makes that theory very shaky imo. However, it would *not* surprise me if the actual plan Future Liz/Max came up with somehow came about via information that wasn't necessarily 100% truthful or based on fact. I DO feel there could have been mindwarps involved for Future Max/Liz to come up with and go through sending Max back in time to change the future. I believe this because the seeming purpose of EOTW has been negated postDEPARTURE. We have yet to discover imo the purpose of EOTW, however, I've never believed it was because Tess had to be with Max in any way, shape or form. Hence makes me call into question the authenticity of this sex OR pregnancy. Did EOTW happen for Max to have sex with Tess? OR did it happen to simply make Max BELIEVE he had sex with her (via mindwarps)?

quote:Anyhow, we can spec this to death and come up with a million different theories about what happened. However, we're not going to know until we are told in S3.

You're 100% right with this Meta, we can probably speculate till our fingers bleed from typing and our joints are ridden with carpal tunnel, but we won't know ANYTHING until Season 3. God knows what the writers have in store. The baby could be real... it might not.... Tess could be totally evil... she might not... EOTW could have been some big deception, it might not. This is the show that brought us the glowing greenis that made an entire population of humans disappear. I've come to pretty much expect anything where Roswell is concerned (unfortunately).

quote:p.s. I find it really hard to believe that in the first timeline FM didn't KNOW that Tess was on the enemies side.

IMO, he probably KNEW it... he just didn't know all the reasons why Tess joined. FMax believed she joined the enemy because how he treated, possibly as well as the other podsters/humans. Max didn't ever learn about the 40-yr-old Nasedo deal, until now.

quote:And why on earth, if this was the case, would he force Liz to push him and Tess together without letting her know that very pertinent fact.

Since I believe Max basically blamed himself for Tess "turning to the darkside" (if she did indeed turn in that EOTW timeline, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if she did)... FMax (as well as FLiz) believed that if Max would just accept Tess, be sweet to her, get to know her (and whatever came about afterwards was in the hands of fate)... Tess WOULDN'T turn. Hence, FMax didn't tell Liz about Tess "turning" because he thought if he simply pushed himself to Tess, it would make everything right. It doesn't, unfortunately (as we learn from DEP)... because Tess - via Nasedo's plan - was always tied into the enemy... FMax didn't know about the plan, hence wouldn't have felt the need to warn Liz that Tess has the very likely potential to become "evil".

I do think if Future Liz or Max knew about Nasedo's plan... they would have never sent Max back in time because it would have meant Tess was *always* betraying them. Sending Max back to keep Tess in Roswell would have been pointless (unless FMax flat out told Liz about Nasedo's plan and specifically warn her about Tess - which he didn't), even before she showed up in Roswell. Because of what Nasedo did, it's scarred Tess forever.

quote:What if somewhere down the line in that second timeline, after FM disaappeared, something went wrong and Max walked away from Tess?

Since EOTW, the idea of multiple/alternate timelines is now stuck in my head. I was wondering if there have been even MORE than two alternate timelines in this story that have ended with Tess leaving and Max/Liz together (although two would be more than enough I'd have to think). How do we know there haven't been SEVERAL timelines that have ended in some variation of Tess leaving and Max/Liz together? It does seem very apparent to me that whatever the future holds for Roswell - Tess just isn't included in the group, she doesn't belong. It happened in EOTW and now it's happened in DEP. Unfortunately the timeline of DEP, it took Alex's death to prove it.

quote:It doesn't make any sense. If FM KNEW about Tess being evil, he would have told Liz. Just in case.

I don't think FMax necessarily knew Tess was "evil"... I don't think she's evil at all actually. I think FMax thought - as I do - that Tess was just really misguided. FMax thought he hurt her so profoundly that it pushed her to the enemy and the EOTW 2014 future happened because of Max. FMax, in not so many words, basically blamed himself for the outcome of the future (because Tess left and they deduced because of her loss, it weakened them and the enemy took over and reaked havoc on Earth, Antar)? FMax possibly thought, if they could just have accepted Tess, if he had just accepted Tess, the future would have gone differently. However, if Tess was always destined to leave... she's GOING to leave... FMax just didn't realize this. I think we're suppose to come to this conclusion after DEP... Tess was going to leave seemingly no matter what (even pregnant with "Max's" child). And quite possibly, "leave" to join the enemy - as she more than likely did in the alternate EOTW timeline... it's just in this new timeline, Max & crew KNOW about Nasedo's plan and why/how Tess is able to "side" with the enemy.

One rather major problem with this is that if Nasedo's plan consisted of:

~Deliver the hybrid Royals to Kivar for a public execution on Antar
~Deliver the Granilith to Kivar
~Deliver Max's heir to Kivar

IF Tess joined the enemy in the alternate EOTW timeline, she wouldn't have brought ANY of those things to Kivar. This could give credence to your theory Meta that the Nasedo plan was all a mindwarp. Or it could mean that Tess HERSELF was directly working with the Skins and she lied about it being Nasedo's plan... when all along, it was HER plan. Tess is Kivar's sister, his wife, his lover, his second? This would possibly mean that the young bride was deceiving everyone in the past alien life as well... she was always working for Kivar? Which the Antarians NEVER discovered? The "Vilandra/Isabel was/is the traitor" stuff was/is just smoke and mirrors to cover up the TRUE traitor? The young bride?

Melodious

I find it rather amusing (yet somewhat frustrating) that the reason why FMax came to 2000 to break up M&L, make himself fall out of love with Liz and push Max to Tess was because the LOSS of Tess WEAKENED the group acc. to FMax. Now we have the last few eps of the season where Tess was possibly doing some serious mindwarping on more than just Alex, but also on Kyle, and possibly Max, Michael and others? Via what happened to poor Alex... we know Tess' mindwarps WEAKEN the mind (to the point her warps can kill you).

FMax came in an attempt to STRENGTHEN the group by keeping Tess in it... when in reality, he actually weakened it, literally. Tess warps have taken there toll on EVERYONE, Alex paid the greatest price. However, since I feel Max is probably second in having the most points in the "I've been mindwarped" club... God knows what that's done to him and/or his powers. Or what it's done to Kyle as well as everyone else Tess has probably mindwarped. It's Tess' mere presence that has caused tension between Max and Liz... the seeming focal point of the group (and the show). Tess' inclusion in the group has WEAKENED them... NOT strengthened them. It had the exact OPPOSITE effect FMax had intended. Quite possibly making this timeline worse, but will eventually straighten itself out in time (hopefully).

Melodious

[/B]

Ok, BUT FMax was from what year?? Wasn't he from 2014 - that would of made him 13 years old if he was Max & Liz's son - assuming that they had him right after they were married in Vegas. He would of actually JUST turned 13...our FMax was much older. And - didn't he kiss FLiz goodbye at the graniloth??

Cantbehrit

Just saw your post and I'm off to email, but .. I'll be in LA until Monday around noon (coming in Friday around noon). I'd LOVE to meet up with you guys at any point.

This would completely explain WHY Khivar wanted Max dead & the Dupes were willing to kill him. Once they couldn't and were unsuccessful they went into action on plan B. Which of course was mindwarping Tess and using her to destroy everything and bring the graniloth back to Khivar (assuming that is what went back).

Also, pleeeeaase someone explain the Kyle/Tess baby theory to me...I want to make sure I'm understanding that correctly.

Cantbehrit

Then, once Michael says he wants to stay on earth, Tess also looks a little worried, but figures she at least has Max the King and Isabel- Khivar's supposed lost love. Tess even says something like 'whoever's leaving, we have to go now' when Isabel's hugging Michael and saying goodbye, probably to hurry them up before Isabel can change her mind about leaving Earth. Later on while explaining the deal to Max, Tess probably maintains the pregnant facade and includes it as part of the deal to stop Max from killing her.

what does everyone think??

I'm only on page 6 but I had to reply to this--it makes perfect and complete sense to me--kudos to you!

fallen

Melodious1 – I liked your cameras in the observatory idea. It would be just like our Liz to investigate and uncover the truth of the matter. So far she hasn’t really let Max’s emotions control her actions (i.e. searching for the truth about Alex). Maybe she will be able to intellectually figure out the whole M&T thing. I also liked your K&T timeline theory on the pregnancy – pray for a blue-eyed baby
shapeshifter – I think you were the one to mention that mirrors = truth and therefore T***’s personal revelation while in front of the mirror was most likely true. I looked at it a different way – that she realized the possibilities that a fake pregnancy presented to her, thus the “OMG”, like she was thinking, “Finally a way to get home with my man” or something like that. The truth in that scene with the mirror was more in line with the true character (or lack thereof) of T***.
Reggie, Palomino, shapeshifter – Thanks for the ghostly image! I didn’t see it when rewatching my tape.
Hew – Very interesting post with regard to “D”
GraceKel – your post about how it seemed important to keep Liz “innocent and virginal” gave me hope in a silly, can’t wait for August and a new ep sort of way – in horror flicks, don’t the virgins always outlast everyone else? If that is the case, Liz is really the only “safe” one left on the show!

I find the whole EOTW/MW discussion interesting. There are a few things that I need to air. I don’t personally think that it was a MW, but I can appreciate why some might believe that it is. Perhaps the granolith didn’t need to “warm up” in EOTW because T*** wasn’t aware of that aspect of its operation and therefore didn’t incorporate it into the MW. That would also explain the location of crystal insertion during this scene. Then again, if it weren’t a MW, then perhaps it didn’t have to warm up because it was being used for time travel as opposed to actual travel from one location to another (if indeed it did travel with its passenger as opposed to simply being a transporter). Perhaps the reconfiguration done (by Liz and Serena for purposes of time travel) changed its operating procedures. Like I said, I don’t believe it was a MW for no other reasons than because of the first scene with FM/FL and because I don’t want to believe that! Just thought I would throw that out there.

One last comment. Zero, I thought it funny that you mentioned that snakes are our friends and that spiders might be a better description for T*** (in light of the music played and such). I know several men who are more afraid of spiders than of snakes!

I haven't been around for a while, so it took me a while to get caught up! It also means I have lots to say!

Going back to page 2...Palamino you mentioned that if Tess might have had a translation of the book already. I think this is a distinct possibility. She had Alex give her the translation, but couldn't just say "Hey everybody, look what I have here, why don't we go back to our planet?" She needed to give the podsters (and especially Max) a reason to leave earth. Max probably would have "remembered" how to read the book soon after Tess told him she was pregnant. (read: tess would have mindwarped him into thinking he was translating it, but only feeding him the possibly edited translation she got from Alex.

This still leaves the question of Leanna/Jennifer and the house, bomb, computer etc. But wait, I have a theory for that too. IF Leanna is a protector she could have been watching over Alex's progress - and in moments of his lucidity helped him. He would have emailed her the translation he came up with when he was done. So Leanna set up to read it and see if it was correct, possibly to compare it to the version she knows. She could have set up the house and bomb to keep everyone away from her work. She didn't mean anyone to find it.

OR Jennifer could be being emissaried (by either a good guy or a bad guy). I don't know, does this make any sense? It does in my head, but if I'm not writing it well, just tell me.

As for the baby, I'm inclined to believe that it's either not real at all, or it is Max's. I'd believed it was Nicko's before it was Kyle's.

Great catch everyone on the V! I've always noticed how Max and Isabel seem to match all the time, and now they're adding Liz too!

While everything Tess says and said now has to be suspect, I'm inclined to believe the Nasedo deal. I forget who had the theory about Atherton and alien brain capacity. Basically, Atherton said that aliens had neither the lung capacity or brain capacity to live on Earth for prolonged periods of time. This person (I'm sorry I can't remember who you are!) said that perhaps full aliens could not survive on earth, which therefore had an effect on their brain, making them fanatical to get home because they couldn't survive. I really like this theory. Nasedo was a full alien and knew Atherton. He was so fanatical to get home because he couldn't survive for very long on earth. He already had brain damage from the atmosphere on earth, and would do anything to get back to his planet, thus the deal with Khivar.

I also believe that the skins and Nasedo were working independent of each other. Khivar does not strike me as a dumb guy. In fact, from what we've heard he's pretty clever. It wouldn't surprise me if he had two different plans going at once. If there was one skin who knew about it, it was probably CW. She could have killed Nasedo (on orders from Khivar) to remind Tess of the deal. Nasedo was expendable, Tess was the important part of the plan.

While I was typing this, another thing popped into my mind. From what we learned this season, no one expected it to take so long for the pod squad to hatch! Nasedo made the deal in 1960 or so, and the skins came to earth in 1950! So why was the pod squad in their pods for so long? Could their other protector kept them there to protect them (but from what?)? Or, were their hatchings triggered by something? If they were triggered by something, what was it? Could it have been Liz? (That also plays into the ancient prophecy theory, just for you zero!)

This is gettin long, so I'm going to post my theories on EOTW a little later, but I have one more thought before I go.

I read a lot of fantasy novels, and often in a fantasy series (especially a long one) there will be a book that isn't as good as the others, but all the events in it are necessary for setting up what happens next. (I'm thinking specifically of Robert Jordan's Path of Daggers, if anyone has read that.) That's what I think of Season 2. It wasn't as good as Season 1, but with all the things that happened, and all the avenues it opened up, the potential for Season 3 is so great. I don't know what to expect in season 3, but I can't wait!

later!

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

Unfortunately, I wouldn't put much stock in this...apparently the writers don't know the "rules"! 'Cause, you know, the whole virgin angle didn't work so well for Alex.

shapeshifter your ideas about Liz the Martyr, a humble savior, etc. fascinate me!

CANTBEHRIT--I proposed the theory that the baby could in fact be Kyles--things to support this---first all season or at least most of the season Max has believed that Liz betrayed him and slept with Kyle-----that is one reason why I thought wouldn't it be ironic if it was in fact TESS who betrayed Max and slept with Kyle and not Liz----also remember at some points they did have the hots for one another---also Malamood mentioned to Kyle "how long are you going to let that Blonde little hottie live under your roof....." At this time Kyle had little reaction about it--he might have even been considering it---at the prom Malamood says "don't worry you WILL SOON!!!!!"-----Maybe in the eraser room an innocent you are my sister talk really didn't happen--maybe somthing a little more hot and heavy actually happened---we now know that Tess can mindwarp, erase and replace memories---quite a little bag of tricks I'd say. Or the deed could have been done in the past(allowing for an actual longer pregnancy) but after the deed was done Tess made Kyle forget it--cuz she wanted to pass it off as Max's. Her choice of song "oops I did it again I played with your heart....."

Here is one more---suppose Lonnie has shapeshifted into Tess since Max In The City but of course she can't really get preggers with Max cuz she is his sister so she substitutes with Kyle but passes it off as Max's---we all know how much Lonnie wanted to get home----and Nicholas actually says "okay but the FREAK with the MOHAWK stays here!!!" Its funny cuz Michael was doing exactly that--staying here?????

But I don't want FM to be a mindwarp, and I don't think it will be. I am open to the idea of FM and FL BEING mindwarped themselves, but this is optional.

Oh, one more thought: FM said Liz needed to change--I understood this to mean she needed to stop loving Max. This never really happened; she was only able to give a little illusion of it with the Kyle thing.

Only slightly random thought:
How come Rath & Lonnie didn't have a baby?

And GraceKel, I've been thinking about the "freak with the Mohawk" aka Michael staying behind too--so Isabel could be delivered to Kvar, no doubt. Notice that Tess isn't too worried about Michael staying behind. And she is trying to help him find something Maria would like to eat at Alex's wake. I think this was a big part of Nasedo's deal with Kvar--And NOt Part Of the Destiny book!

Thank you! That is exactly what I thought you said but then someone posted that I must have been mistaken...thanks for clearing that up.

Cantbehrit

Just wanted to start some discussions here, and i know that this was already a thread, but what do u guys think about Liz and her powers? (especially about the whole tess mindwarping thing not being used on liz).
I personally believe that liz has gotten powers to block mindwarps, kinda like brody. I also noticed that Tess never tried to help liz "explore" her powers...hmmmmm, does this mean anything important???

Good point..also it was Ava who notified Liz about her powers. With Tess's extensive "knowledge" about herself and the others she probably knew that Liz had been changed. Why then didn't she let her know if it could help out the podsquad if they ever needed her? Probably because her powers can block mindwarps.

Cantbehrit

Hi Reggie..ok well I found the poster who thought of this theory and I really like it:

quote:Originally posted by GraceKel:

CANTBEHRIT--I proposed the theory that the baby could in fact be Kyles--things to support this---first all season or at least most of the season Max has believed that Liz betrayed him and slept with Kyle-----that is one reason why I thought wouldn't it be ironic if it was in fact TESS who betrayed Max and slept with Kyle and not Liz----also remember at some points they did have the hots for one another---also Malamood mentioned to Kyle "how long are you going to let that Blonde little hottie live under your roof....." At this time Kyle had little reaction about it--he might have even been considering it---at the prom Malamood says "don't worry you WILL SOON!!!!!"-----Maybe in the eraser room an innocent you are my sister talk really didn't happen--maybe somthing a little more hot and heavy actually happened---we now know that Tess can mindwarp, erase and replace memories---quite a little bag of tricks I'd say. Or the deed could have been done in the past(allowing for an actual longer pregnancy) but after the deed was done Tess made Kyle forget it--cuz she wanted to pass it off as Max's. Her choice of song "oops I did it again I played with your heart....."

Cantbehrit

Originally posted by Nemo:
Sorry, to me it just looked like "Section F." But now that you suggest a crown, I see what you mean.
Folks, I used to work as a pressman at a newspaper. (The Burlington (VT) Free Press.) These dots or stars are used to indicate the edition or revision of that section of the paper. For example, the first edition (for suburbs) would have three stars, the second (for machine vendors) two, and the Final Edition just one. (For technical reasons, on an offset press it's easier to remove things than add them.)

It's possible that this paper was set up so that the home delivered local edition had (say) ten stars, the machine edition nine, and the suburban eight. In any case, these are almost certainly edition marks.

Plus, since Max is looking at the Classifieds for an appartment, he has the bigger Classified section from a Sunday paper; hence the higher section letter. In a four section paper, the Classifieds might be in C section, but a Sunday paper is printed in batches and inserted: the outer four sections of news are printed "live", as it were, but the Classifieds, Comics, Magazine Section, TV Section, the ads, etc. are printed earlier and seperately inserted into each newspaper. They make machines that do this. Really! It helps if the outside papers are folded just a little "off", so they can be opened easier.

Point being, the "crown" is a normal part of the paper, and the F belongs on the Classifieds. No mystic symbolism.

KKB: Wait, wait. Liz, and a horse?

I’m not too up on it, to be honest. But apparently there’s a sect of them that believes that Liz is represented by a horse throughout the episodes. Like, sometimes she has horse stickers on her mirror.

KKB: I don’t know – the horse thing, that’s a new one on me.

I’ve never really gotten it. But is there any sort of underlying symbolism that you try to keep in consideration?

KKB: Some of the stuff, of course. The alien symbol and all that kind of stuff. Maybe sometimes the production department is having a little fun without telling us about it. For the most part, I think that the fans pick up on [things] that means something to them. [For example], the whole strawberry applesauce thing – because of the teaser in “Sexual Healing.”

Reggie I wouldn't be so sure. Just because it's an everyday occurance doesn't mean it hasn't been placed there for a purpose!!

I also don't think the writers "know the rules" - look at the one I posted above about "babies"!

quote: all season or at least most of the season Max has believed that Liz betrayed him and slept with Kyle-----that is one reason why I thought wouldn't it be ironic if it was in fact TESS who betrayed Max and slept with Kyle and not Liz

I sooo love this angle! Wouldn't this be such a great twist! If only I had faith in the writers these days to come up with such a clever twist! I used to have such faith, but alas, ... ! BUT Season 3 may surprise us! Another support of the Kyle is the father theory IF the baby is real - the size of the baby! Even with a month gestation period, it would not have been that big that fast (couple of days) if Max had been the "sperm donor"!

I'm hoping that somehow/someway I get to chat with a writer at the party - not a WHAT you SHOULD be doing talk, but to get into how they think, and where they are coming from! Wishful thinking??

shapeshifter - I've also wondered about why Lonnie and Rath did not get preggers given that they seemed to be doing the "beast with two backs" regularly - with apparently little thought to protection. I know that it only takes once - and others can spend years trying before a pregnancy happens - but given our common knowledge of Hybrids not being able to produce with each other - this plays into the Kyle/Tess union theory. Plus, I'm assuming Zan and Ava "did it" - and never got preggers either? Ava never said they didn't, just that Zan seemed to always be waiting for someone else. (Which I'm still puzzled about the entire Ava revelation, etc. and then nothing was ever done with it!)

On the spoiler board - I'm lurking there some now that the season is over - there seems to be some feeling and argument over why Max never wondered about Liz sleeping with Kyle and then never spending any time with him, etc. Well, I've always wondered why Iz and Mikey G never told Max about what Liz said to Ava in front of them about LOVING Max - and please help me save him? While Liz did betray Max - at Future Max's urging and fear for the survival of Earth and her friends - there were tons of clues for Max to know something was up, if only he had done more than a few "Did you sleep with Kyle?" questions! The failure to press for the truth is what got them all into this mess - and only Liz's refusal to be prevented from digging for the Truth is what saved them!

Reggie - Thanks for the newspaper printing 101! I've been dying to know what "the owls are not what they seem" means?? But keep forgetting to ask. Oh - BTW - Liz may not be an alien, but did you know "George W is an Alien"? (couldn't resist! )

Liz and the Horse - ROTFLMAO! Someone must have seen something about our horse and Trojan Horse symbolism, and got it twisted!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

In Cry Your Name, it was Kyle's birthday. Valenti did not want Kyle to think Alex died on Kyles birthday. What a great birthday present T*** could give Kyle, herself! Plus what a great way to celebrate the fact that she pulled off Alex's death and got by with it?

... I am open to the idea of FM and FL BEING mindwarped themselves, but this is optional.

I guess what I was trying to say, which probably got lost somewhere in my long windedness (he he, ahem ). Since I have the firmest belief (whether I'm clouded by my rabid Dreamer side or I'm actually making sense) that Max and Liz ARE destined to be together, and through them, effect all other characters/events of the story. EOTW's purpose wasn't necessarily to "keep" Tess in the picture, but to eliminate the obstacles which Max and Liz faced in that alternate EOTW timeline, "obstacles" that they still face now. One obstacle in particular named Tess.

I do feel, despite Tess "leaving" in that EOTW timeline, that she was STILL directly effecting M&L's "destiny" together (directly, as in, she sided with the "enemy" since they're not HER enemies - to spite Max for how he treated her as well as or only to rejoin with "her people"). Her constant interference is what caused the outcome of that EOTW timeline (and led M&L to make a rash decision in sending Max back in time)... her interference in M&L's "destiny" is what has made the same outcome begin to unfold AGAIN (Tess leaving, Max/Liz are together but still haunted by T [the baby]).

This show has bombarded us with various "histories"... and the danger of "repeating" these histories. What if Tess is somehow the key in the destruction of the podsters? Because of Tess' presence... history will continually repeat itself? It possibly happened in the alien life, it happened in EOTW and now it's happening once again in DEPARTURE... it's Liz who has to stop this cycle of destruction somehow? Liz (with Kyle and Maria's help) already stopped it to some extent by preventing Max and Isabel from accompanying Tess to their deaths on Antar? Liz will step forward again to save the podsters from Tess ... Liz will continue to do this because this is HER destiny? Stop this cycle of *destruction* Tess is directly or indirectly responsible for?

Since I have this belief Tess is somehow connected to the misfortune of the podsters... I can't think Max being permanently tied to her via a baby would be a very likely scenario. So I do honestly feel the baby either doesn't exist or simply isn't Max's. However, that could just be the biased Dreamer in me talking

Melodious

Zero--yes the QUESTIONS not asked--geez have they asked the name of the home planet YET?????????????????????LOL!!!! Yes I know on the silverhandprint but I don't suppose all of Roswell's viewers are online are they?

Ofcourse all those Tess preggers theories the one I prefer the most is that the whole pregnancy was a mindwarp to screw with Max's head--and of course to get home--Tess or Lonnie take your pick!!!

Another thing I noticed when Liz and Maria went to the UNIV to RAY's room(Alex) and the guy came in and told them he ate THAI FOOD morning noon and night--he said some kind of FOOD FETISH--I was thinking how much that sounded like FOOT FETISH(the rubbing of Tess' feet) is this another indication that Alex was not the only mindwarp victim--of course we just look at Stepford Max and could tell something was off with him but I just connected FOOD FETISH and FOOT FETISH being so similar.

Another thing that bothered me---someone brought up the fact that FMAX knew that Liz preferred WHITE ROSES instead of RED------and yet for the PROM----Max gave Liz a RED and WHITE corsage?????hmmmm/// And of course Tess is wearing a WHITE corsage--almost like THEY SWITCHED????? STolen memories, stolen feelings???

Okay here is another theory--I know these aren't that good but oh well some idea might spark some brilliance from someone else LOL!!!!
I was thinking about these BLUE CRYSTALS--and Max thinking he was not affected by the thing sucking on his hand----but maybe he was wrong???? Who found the crystal-Michael did he touch it as well????Maybe--and then the sheriff had possession of it as well---things really went downhill for the sheriff after possessing the blue crystal--hell he was making baseball bats, not shaving, acting somewhat strange---in a DARK PLACE he called it, I think it is safe to say that Max started getting pretty weird and even Michael has changed--and both Max and Michael were biting their fingernails in BIY(so I thought of LAURIE DUPREE biting her fingernails and saying "I have to get them out, they are in there" So I guess what I am saying is maybe those blue crystals affected them more than they realize???

Geez I was leaning towards Jim Valenti being Nasedo from INTO THE WOODS Michael says "he is here, Nasedo is here" but maybe the message was----Michael is Nasedo and he is here??????

So anyway... what do you think? I am trying to make good on a bad situation.

Okay, I'm going to cobble together 2 of my own and several of other posters into one Super Mini Theory.
The Book that Tess had Alex translate but kept hidden had instructions for building a pod so the baby could survive on earth until it was able to do so on its own at about age 6. Tess didn't want them to know this because she wanted to go back to Antar because of the Deal.
So then the version that they got hold of would be the edited version.
Liz, of course, will be the one to solve this and all mysteries.

~~theories~~

Maybe Liz's family has a history with the aliens that are on Antar you know its possible.

Maybe Liz was created to help the aliens because MAx's parents knew that they would need help on earth. Meaning maybe they made an alliance with Liz's family because they thought that they would have a child about the age of the king. So maybe they thought that if there was a problem she would be able to help them because she was a human who was born into a family not adopted so that there will not be any suspisions. I guess I spent all that space saying that she could be there guid for the time that they are on earth because they had figured they would need someone to protect them because they figured they would have problems. But of course its just my theory.

If S3 ever addressed this issue so far as to the others, such as Max & Isabel, thinking of Max of course, this would be a far more interesting concept for Roswell.

Anyways, I lurk, and would love to join you guys for the Liz's Myth Convention, Los Angeles, yes?

Love reading, DeeDee

Well, I had some ideas and I read most of the thread...but I might've missed something, so if this is a repeat just ignore it

I was trying to figure out how to reconcile TEOTW with Tess being evil, without having almost all of the 2nd half of the season be a mindwarp I don't think FMax was a mindwarp because of the scene in the beginning--and by the way I'm almost positive he kissed FLiz in that scene.

My theory is that Tess is just what she said she is in the granolith chamber--nasedo made a deal, she's bad, yadda yadda yadda. I think in FMax's timeline, she left before she could reveal she was bad, because she realized she was NEVER going to get with Max with Liz in the way. So she left, made it seem like she was put out, and went to join Nikolaus secretly. Also, I think there MUST be different factions of Khivar's followers; either that or the skins killed Nasedo because they didn't KNOW he struck a deal with Khivar. So anyway in FMax's timeline Tess joins Nikolaus, and helps the podsquad's enemies attack them--she knows everything about them! FMax and FLiz don't know that FTess is helping their enemies....the problem is that there are only THREE aliens with powers and they need four. So FMax naturally thinks they shouldn't have driven Tess away.

So here's an idea--in FMax's timeline, they never would have discovered Liz had powers, because MITC wouldn't have happened the way it did....so maybe now, LIZ can be the fourth to complete the podsquad....

Just an idea

As to the destiny book...I think the reason Tess had to mindwarp alex instead of just asking him is because decoding the book required traveling to Las Cruces and spending a month there, basically doing nothing else. It's not like Alex would be like "yeah sure, I'll leave school to go do your bidding!" Also, I think she was unsure as to what was in the book....maybe it said something like "evil betrayer" next to her picture I think she definitely was in the process of changing the DB, and so M/M/I don't have the correct version!!

And on the V formation in Departure...that made me so happy!!! it's nice to see the writers making an effort at continuing the mythology!! And I'm ECSTATIC to see Liz in the formation. I agree with what's been said so far about it

Just a bit of random babbling.

Cantbehrit

No I think he only hugged her, though I could be wrong. IF he only hugged her & did not kiss her my thought (hypothesis, not a theory yet as we have evidence lacking) is that he could be their future son coming back from the future, in other words, he was in HIS PAST already in 2014 (thats why he's a big boy with long hair ), and goes back even deeper into the past when he sees Liz-Liz. Either case he is NOT our Max because of that scene when he sees present Liz and present Max from outside the window. According to him two people fro the sae timeline (past/future--think Back to the Future the movie) they could never meet or it would cause trouble (unless that is what is happening now). Because he peeked from outside the window while with Liz. Plus during their conversation Liz herself says you're not really Max (meaning the Max we know).

This making any sense ?

B!!! Hey sweetie!!!

I was the one who presented the theory (the proof and the pictures with the big long list to back it up & all the explanations in the theory). That might be why you were confused. I also added the prom things added Tess had written in silverhandprint.com, the songs, and the fact she was drumming Kyle's fingers when they hugged after he comes say goodbye in order to maintain the warp. I was not aware she had. I was the one who posted what you saw, not gracekel. She may have had a similar hypothesis but the theory (the actual plane in the air not just the idea to fly) you so saw is mine. That is why you got confused. I'm just a rookie so whatever.

Gracekel I was not trying to claim your hypothesis (if you did post something before--which btw I did not see if you did) by posting pictures (and extra hard evidence). You might want to look up the difference in terminology in a science book a theory isn't just an idea if thats what you're saying is 'yours' . I did catch your underlying tone though. Yes, I am here to have fun and help figure things out with my other friends together so I don't need to defend myself from your ego. I did not swipe your idea. I thought it up all by myself and even if you did mention something before, still not yours. BUT, the theory could be your daughters for all I care I give credit where its due, ask Meta. I am the first person who helps out when it is needed. OK? By all means be my guest, baby is all yours ...

I'm here to have fun so get off your high horse. Don't come in accusing me off taking your ideas and trying to back them up with pictures. There ARE other people who might have good insight on their own without your help.

I ALSO wanted to hear more about your idea about how to build a POD---why do you think this? For what intention? For whose benefit?

I really don't feel like arguing about this. Its utterly ridiculous. Like I said if this all about who gets the credit by all means be my guest. I really, really, really don't care.

And thanks for ganging up against me to make me feel my ideas are stupid. You're both real mature.

ITA!!

Cantbehrit

Next time though I'll go back and read through the entire thread.

Let me just say though that I had commented that I liked the idea of the baby being Kyle's from what I had read and another poster said that I had been mistaken and that the "idea" floating around was that the baby was Max & Tess's...so I was simply asking if I had it wrong and Gracekel was just clearing that up - thanks again .

Again, sorry I caused such an uproar...

Cantbehrit

Notice that not only are Max, Liz and Isabel all in black tops/khaki pants (signifying their royalty?) and the other 3 in brown, but note their positions relative to Max. Liz is closer than Isabel; the Queen is closer than the Princess. Michael/Maria, whom I agree have been blended together, are also closer than Kyle; the 2nd-in-Command is closer than the...whatever role Kyle will play (any thoughts there?). So the "New Order" seems to be:
Max-----King
Liz-----Queen
Isabel-----Princess
M&M-----2nd-in-Command
Kyle----Advisor? 3rd-in-Command?

Additional thoughts:
---since Michael is NOT getting invloved with Isabel, technically he's not Royalty anymore. Perhaps this is why Tess was not so concerned about it when he decided to stay, b/c he doesn't actually have any Royal blood.

---If the baby is Kyle's, he will have blue eyes. It's just barely possible for Max to produce a blue-eyed child (if one of his donor's parents had blue eyes), but I think they would go for the lack of ambiguity and make Max's son dark-eyed, therefore the baby's eye colour is going to be important (assuming there really is a baby ).

~Tas

[/B]

I tried to thank you for this the other day and yesterday, but I had trouble getting on! I could lurk but not post!

Good points about the clothing! I wondered about that, too. I is weird for two actresses to be dressed alike at all. The like to give them individuality.

I don't think I want to touch who the father of Tess's baby is with a ten- foot pole! I just want it to go away! I will say that I thought it was telling of Max to actually call it "Tess's baby" when he was talking about it to Liz. Could be a clue that he knows it can't be his?

Next time though I'll go back and read through the entire thread.

OMG, don't feel bad !!!Please, don't feel you have absolutely any fault in this . You have every right in the world to ask about anything you don't understand.

Thanks Shapeshifter and Gracekel for taking away the little bit of fun I still had left. If you're soo caught up in trying to defend some type of value in life why don't you practice it yourselves.

Good day.

ps melodious1 I really enjoyed reading your specs on Nasedo. I thought the test thing was funny . If you don't mind I'll stick to just reading your ideas from now .

I agree....I'm done with it too. ITA with Max calling it "Tess's Baby" being clue.

Cantbehrit

...Max doesn't believe in "God" but he tells Liz he believes in her. Besides this scene being exceedingly sweet and chalk full of Dreamer goodness; with your theory fresh in my head ss, all I could linger on is Liz's importance and what Max's statement means or could have meant. Liz isn't a god or God per se... but to Max, she's the only "god" he believes in. The one person he implicitly trusts (however, too bad he couldn't see past the "Kyle" situation, ahem) even despite everything. The one in whom Max finds strength and guidance.

Max believes in Liz... does he believe in Tess? I don't think he ever has, even though she did give him a "shoulder to cry on" towards the end of the season. I don't think he ever "believed" in her.

I'm not really sure where I was going with this post, just that the above scene in ARCC reminded me of your theory SS I'm also certain all of this was delved in to death just after ARCC aired - so I'm sure this is nothing new. Even though you're clear that you don't believe Liz is a god or that we're supposed to see her as such in any right ... I do think we're supposed to believe Max possibly sees her that way to a certain extent. Whether he realizes it or not. Although Max doesn't believe in any real religion or icon... Liz is the closest thing Max is coming to "worshipping" anything.

Melodious

I just can't get past teh feeling that something isn't right. Something keeps nagging at me. I KNOW I am missing a big clue somewhere. It has me very frustrated. And I just can't get used to the idea of a baby.

I still think it was weird that Tess told Max it was his "dream" and he replies I want to wake up now. What if it was actually a dream? A dream he did not wake up from until teh next morning? I suppose it could have been a "dream" for Tess too. The baby a mind warp from another source. I don't know where I am going with this exactly, it is just something about their conversation seemed off. I will be glad when I can read a transcript. What do you all think?

Also, with Tess gone to Antar in the ship from the Granolith, I would think it would allow more "aliens" to return to earth in the ship. That could be real trouble. Although, I think Max said it was a one way ticket. But if that is the case we won't see Tess back on earth again. Maybe season 3 will start out with one of the podsters going back in time to stop Max from sleeping with Tess...

Okay enough craziness!

~Sheri

Max said that? I must have missed it. What part of DEP was it in exactly? That kind of reminds me of Scully's pregnancy on the X-FILES. Mulder always referred to the baby as "Scully's" baby... either because he didn't know or the audience wasn't supposed to know WHO the father was!

Although this brings me to mind, I think the ONLY times Max has ever referred to the kid openly as something mutual between himself and Tess ("OUR son is dying", etc etc)... is when Tess is actually THERE or in close proximity to Max (more mindwarping?). I could just be grasping at straws with this, but I did get the impression from Max on more than one occassion that he takes absolutely no pleasure and is QUITE ashamed in concerns to the entire *pregnancy* situation as well as the sex itself (that he at least believes happened). Neither should have happened and in Max's behavior (at least when Tess ISN'T around and sometimes even when she is) he makes that *very* evident. Max possibly not *always* "Stepford Max" through the end of the season... but MAX showing himself in brief moments of disappointment, shame, disgust, frustration whathaveyou (at himself, the situation[s] and/or the particular person enveloped with him in said situation[s]). MAX does NOT like this situation he's in, seemingly not even in the smallest iota... but Stepford Max, seems to almost take the situation in stride. Once again, I'm probably just grasping at straws.

Melodious

Evid

Umm... Twisted Destiny anyone? Heh.

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

I leave that open for interpretation. She could use her "gifts" now that she is changed. She wouldn't just save the baby she would actually contribute to it because of the transfer/connection between her and Max. What I like about the theory is that it gives Liz some ownership with this baby. What I don't like about my theory is it creates a bizarre love triangle

GraceKel I have to agree about the Dupes, another reason why this season bothers me--they bring up a new storyline every two weeks and then throw it away.

AMEN!!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Melodious

It was when they were looking at the blood cells of Leanna's and he told Liz that they were leaving and that Tess's baby was dying. (Not a direct quote)
~christy