There is never a dull moment on this thread – especially recently! We appreciate the new episodes to digest – especially with the refocus on Liz’s importance to the storyline! (Thank you JK and RM! ) Even though Heart of Mine, Cry Your Name, It’s Too Late & It’s Too Bad, Baby It’s You, Off The Menu and Departure have many inducing scenes, we have been provided tons of stuff to chat about and dissect! !! Plus – we have seen so many newbies joining into the discussion - which is wonderful!

Feedback is always welcome! Just PM me. I will let you know when I up-date the Introduction so you can head over there to read the new information when I add it in.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Background

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY!

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz's importance to the pod squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! (Especially lately!) We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember – NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome!

Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection

Consequence of the Connection - the Change?

Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really?

Granolith - How does it fit in?

Destiny - Liz and Max!

Follow Your Heart

Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

Chakras

Einstein's Light Cone

Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV

The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up!

The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things?

The Catalyst - Liz!

Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in?

Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run"

Hero Journey - Liz's Path

I wanted to add that I believe the events of the last few episodes (especially, HOM, CYN and ITL&ITB, and some of OTM and Departure) play right into Liz’s Hero Journey!

Grandma Claudia - the first connection?

I just wanted to add here that many of us believe the fact that the necklace Liz wore to the Prom had been Grandma Claudia’s is VERY SIGNIFICANT! Finally, a tie into GC, her Native American connection and Season 1! Now – if we could only figure out “what” the necklace was! Maybe this was a foreshadowing that GC will be the connection to the aliens that we always thought she was/is! And the computer guys from the UNM commenting that the alien symbols look Native American in origin – with Michael getting Season 1 flashbacks – was GREAT! But – unfortunately, we are going to have to wait until Season 3 to see if this all plays out!

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Don’t let the current state of affairs (pun intended!) concern you – Liz and Max are soulmates and lifebond! The Truth Is Out There! And Liz will find it! (Even Maria agrees with that!) And though Liz did figure it all out in time to “save the day” for the Pod Squad – the question of whether Max’s actions irreparably damaged their connection is still hanging out there – and how will Liz deal with not only the revelation that Max had a relationship with Tess, but that there is a baby out there that is the product of that relationship? Talk about bad choices!

Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection?

Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars!

Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Numbers keep cropping up that seem to fall into our 2, 3, 4, 5 groupings. Like the bus that Liz misses is 33_5, the bowling alley lane is 32, Max remembers 3 moons, Alex’s funeral and the concert is on 5/5 and the song at the end of Cry Your Name mentions the number 3! Also, the truck driver had 1 drink, 3 hours before! There is no way that this is just a coincidence! I will try to add as many of the numbers caught to the Intro that I can – but let’s just say that there has to be a meaning to the reoccurrence of the numbers – especially 5! Liz’s cell number is 505-555-0125! (and as Qfanny so intelligently pointed out .125 =1/8th – Ummm…! In BIY – Iz runs “5 or 6” miles now? And “Ray” was seen by his roommate at 4 am, they were the only 2 people around and they were only 5 feet away from each other. Alex’s dorm at UNM was in “Quad 4.” In Departure, the number 67 is prominent in Kyle’s room – any reference to the fact that after Alex’s death, there were 7 Scooby’s, but with Tess’ betrayal, there were actually only 6 true members of the Scooby Gang?

Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz?

Skins - What lies below the surface?

We keep wondering where Nicko disappeared to – and Lonnie, Rath and Ava for that matter. Is it just a matter of time before Kivar shows up? Many of us thought that Tess was up to her “old” tricks of mindwarping – or mind control as Liz so aptly asked about – but was Tess acting alone? Most of us think not! Tess’ actions were the result of a deal Harding made with Kivar 40 years ago, but they also resulted in the death of Alex. But why did she feel she needed to warp Alex into deciphering the book? I still believe there is more to it because of the elaborateness of the deception! And, was the sex/baby real? All indications point to it, BUT the mind control and the power of illusion could play in it all be a hoax to convince the Pod Squad they had to go home, and Tess ultimate “card” to convince Max to let her go without being harmed.

Shapeshifters - Are there more than one?

Remember – Harding and Nasedo and Tic Tac are NOT all one and the same shapeshifter! I still believe that Tic Tac is out there watching over Liz!

Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation

Mythology!

Dates

Dates seem to be of extreme interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research. If you find a date I’ve missed or see one that is wrong – PM me with the change and where you got your information! I’m always looking for new dates!

New dates added include:

6/21/1084 – Alex’s Birthdate listed on his grave stone (Departure)
1994 – Date the building in the Leanna and Alex picture was torn down (ITLITB)
12/9/2000 – Alex’s Departure for Sweden (ITLITB)
1/16/2001 – Date Leanna computer file/document created by Alex (ITLITB)
1/18/2001 – Date Alex and Leanna were supposed to be traveling to the Baltic Islands – where the mysterious building supposedly existed (ITLITB)
1/28/2001 – Alex’s Return from Sweden date (ITLITB)
4/27/2001 – Roswell Prom & Date Liz begins to start writing in her Journal again. (Heart of Mine)
4/29/2001 – Alex date of death listed on his grave stone (Departure)
5/3/2001 – Alex is killed. (Cry Your Name)
5/4/2001 – Kyle’s Birthday (18th?) (Cry Your Name)
5/5/2001 – Alex Whitman’s funeral (Cry Your Name)

In Summary

Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff, crew or UPN reads this or the Intro), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!"

To have the opportunity for a Season 3 on UPN is WONDERFUL, and this show has the potential to be another “X-files” with intimate relationships IF done right! BUT PLEASE – Get rid of the “90210” storylines – if we want a soap opera, we will turn on “Days of Our Lives”!

A couple of general "rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed – I can’t emphasize this enough as we move towards the season finale), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions/preview and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. If you know what a preview “really means” due to spoilers, please DON’T tell us – let us speculate – we will find out soon enough! And discussion of the new book “Loose Ends” is now okay that the season is over – though you might hold some stuff back for those of us who still have to read it! Thanks!

As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz whose life ended too soon - said - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)! Liz found the TRUTH, and will avenge his death! (Tess – beware – you have no idea what you have released in the B*#@h!

Zero
I Shall Believe!!
FAN!

I've been watching the Pilot a lot lately and in the part when Max and Liz are in the bandroom, the letters on the chalkboard behind Liz keep catching my eye. I remember last summer (?) there was discussion of what these letters (musical notes) meant in that succession, etc etc. If someone could recap or point me in the direction of a link?

On that note, I'm off to read more of the website

And let's play nice this time!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

I've been watching the Pilot a lot lately and in the part when Max and Liz are in the bandroom, the letters on the chalkboard behind Liz keep catching my eye. I remember last summer (?) there was discussion of what these letters (musical notes) meant in that succession, etc etc. If someone could recap or point me in the direction of a link?

On that note, I'm off to read more of the website

And let's play nice this time!!

[/B]

Hey guys...Just thought I would jump in here. In the pilot, what was was written on the blackboard were the notes for an A flat major scale.

Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab

A flat major is a key signature that has four flats, and I think, if I remember correctly, at one point Liz was standing in front of the Db which represents the Fourth flat in the key signature or the fourth note in the scale.

{~}:}

This DB is sooooo disturbing me to no end!! This book came directly from Tess. She took the DB along with her to the cliff in FS and handed it over to Max who threw it away, but she insisted on giving it to Michael. Tess told Michael that she will fill all of them in when he can convince them that she is not their enemy. The DB is what brought on all this Destiny, mating, that they were engineered and so on. It came from HER!! Who has been mindwarping innocent people, (in fact, killed Alex b/c of it) for HER gain.

So now my question is this: why send Alex away to "translate" it???? I have been thinking, as well as you all, that if it came from Alex - it would be credible. BUT -- the story was he was in Sweden. He was never to remember that he did this; the coming out of his mindwarp was by accident!! How was this "translation" ever going to get into the pod-squad's hands???

Now this may be out there, so please feel free to shoot holes in it!! Alex's features are a lot like Max's. . . . . brown hair, amber eyes, tall. Could she have used him to get pregnant during those two months?? (I really do like the theory that Kyle could be the father, so this is just speculating!!)

Dialogue from Departure:

Alex: "You did this to me, you sent me to Las Cruses . ."

Tess: Alex, Alex - let me fix your mind -- you're not thinking straight"

Alex: "You mindwarped me for two months WHILE I decoded that SILLY book for you and now there's nothing left for you to mindwarp. You destroyed my mind!! How could you do this to me!! I have nothing (as in erased), I might as well be dead. You can't mindwarp me!"

Maybe she erased his memories of what actually happened (Tess & Alex's sex) and tried to insert the Sweden trip memories. The decoding the SILLY book was a back-up plan in case the "Sweden" trip came out as false!! oh. . . . I don't know!! argggg!!

When Tess said: "He would have told you what I did & I couldn't let that happen." I took that she didn't want Max to find out that she had been mindwarping Alex, and in turn, Max may not trust her or "love" her anymore. BUT, with my speculation, it certainly is shown in a different light.

Leanna is not Leanna. That's right - she's Jennifer Coleman, but could it have been Tess?? Could she be an imposter/shapeshifter?? Did Lonnie/Rath actually shapeshift or just use magic to look like Michael and Isabel?? (The Tess/Ava switch concept is what I'm thinking here. . . being Tess is one of their group!!)

What do you guys think??? I think I have just confused myself!! Hope you guys get what I was meaning to say!!

Edited to say: why would Alex call it a SILLY book when it was answers to questions of the pod-squad's - his supposed friends that he has been helping?? Why was he gone TWO MONTHS - did the pregnancy not work in the first month??

It could make for an interesting S3 storyline - save Alex's baby, a lifeline to a long-lost friend!!. . . . just a thought!!

Hi everyone..you know before I started posting on this thread this last month I've lurked since you all started it basically. I've always been fascinated by all of the ideas & I personally have been obsessed with Liz..she comes off as someone so incredibly important that I can not believe anyone else would ever feel the oposite.

With that said I have a really stupid question to ask...has JK said that he has left clues in the episode's and whatnot? I've recently started watching the episode's again but if he has actually SAID this then...I'm gonna watch them over and over again!

Just wondering.....

Hmm...I did catch something though last night while I was watching the episode with Grandma Claudia...does anyone here watch General Hospital? Because "Gia" (Marissa Ramirez) is one of Isabel's friends at the Crashdown....

Well that wasn't a "clue" but I was ever so proud of myself!

Cantbehrit

I responded to your question at the end of the last thread but i'll respond here too!

Max said the line about "Tess's baby" when he and Liz were checking Leanna's cells under the microscope. He was telling Liz about leaving because "Tess's baby" was dying. (Not a direct quote)
~christy

cantbehrit, I read somewhere that Katims worked on the Pilot for over a year, fine-tuning it and adding details and clues in, but I think I got that from another poster or something, so who knows? I'm not real sure. That's the only episode I've read anything like that on.

tp your ideas on Tess having Alex impregnate her are very interesting! Maybe she was just hitting two birds with one stone, and she really did have him decode the Destiny book, but also warped him into sleeping with her. Or maybe she had the answer about the Granolith all along from Harding (I refuse to call him Nasedo--Tic Tac is Nasedo to me) and just made up the Destiny book, and implanted in him memories of decoding the destiny book. This would not have been related to the tapping if, as poster Vilondra suggested on the Dreamer thread, the tapping was directly related to memory-erasing--because the book memories would have been memory-implanting. I realize this has a lot of holes in it--heck maybe Tess erased memories of the Alex-Tess forced nookie, implanted memories of the Destiny book, and then implanted memories of Sweden. That's not very plausible so until someone comes up with a more plausible explanation for the latter theory I guess my mind's open to her, like I said before, hitting two birds with one stone. Used Alex to impregnate her, erased the memories, made him decode the Destiny book, erased the memories, and implanted Sweden memories. This way when the warp wore offhe'd remember the Destiny book but not the nookie. Or maybe the other way around, maybe she had him decode the book and then had him impregnate her, so that the most recent memories wore off first. I don't know, I'm really just babbling here and spouting out whatever comes to mind, so only about 10% of this post is probably relevant. However, I think it's a good, nice 10%.

-fallen

That is a really good point and I'm assuming that the Mind Warping sign possibly has to do with the "attitude" of someone. As in Max, being so mean and not like "himself".

Cantbehrit

It's fascinating and addresses some symbolism we discussed, although, me thinks the interviewer got this a little confused.
http://www.popgurls.com/article_show.php3?id=105

That is a really good point and I'm assuming that the Mind Warping sign possibly has to do with the "attitude" of someone. As in Max, being so mean and not like "himself".

Cantbehrit

[/B]

If that is true, and the finger tapping is a sign of Mind Erasing -- can we assume that there was no Mind Erasing going on previous to CYN? Now, I haven't had a chance to go back and check some of the earlier episodes, but I don't recall any finger tapping before Alex's scene in CYN -- however I could be wrong. Does anybody know if there were previous instances of finger tapping?

Or maybe it's just another CHAD?

{~}:}

Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab

A flat major is a key signature that has [b]four flats, and I think, if I remember correctly, at one point Liz was standing in front of the Db which represents the Fourth flat in the key signature or the fourth note in the scale.

{~}:}

Wouldn't that be a perfect fourth?

quote:
Eagles and horses also seem to show up often and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max the one of the most notable examples being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” (More tie ins to eagles under Chakras below.) Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! Liz could be the Trojan Horse in which something of great importance is hidden.

Let's not forget that Max saved "Mr. Ed" as Michael cutely put:

What I thought was strange about the Destiny book was how Tess seemed to know what was in it on 4sq and M2M.

MAX: What about the other hand print pictures Valenti told us about? And how many other victims will there be after tonight? Alex? Maria? Liz!?

TESS: Nobody has to get hurt, Max.

MAX: Sure, until you get what you want.

TESS: It’s not just what I want, it’s what’s meant to be. It’s all in here, Max. Our destiny.

She tells Max, "it's all in here," now why would she say that if later on she needs it translated by Alex?
You also notice in the conversation that when Max says "sure until you get what you want," she goes on to say, "it's what we all want." We see from way back in 4Sq that Tess will kill anyone who who gets in her way of getting what she wants. The first person mentioned was Alex.

She also said this to Max when she picks him up in takes him to the pod chamber.
TESS: I’ll show you everything, and you’ll remember." Don't you think this sounds alot like when Max said "you made me remember" on HOM? Did Max ever remember anything from his past with out Tess's help, just how long has she been helping Max remember??

This is what she tells Michael in M2M,
TESS: You want to know, don’t you? You want all the answers. I can give them to you, but first you have to convince them that I’m not your enemy. Max didn’t tell you about this, did he? Take it. It will prove to them that I don’t want to hurt you. If you convince them then I can explain everything.

Tess never did explain everything or anything at all. The writers have had her character all over the place. She tells Max on 4Sq that she and Nasedo were never close and then she tells Lonnie on MITC, "Our protector raised me. His name was Nasedo, and we were very close."
All this does lead me to believe that Tess was never mindwarped unless she was mindwarped from the very beginning. At this point I think it's all about waiting for season 3 to clean up this mess other wise we will all end up as crazy as Alex.

Evid

[/B]

It would indeed! I can't believe I forgot to mention that. Duh. Well, also interesting to note a perfect fourth interval when inverted becomes a diminished fifth interval.

Maybe now the podsters are changed and are diminished by the presence of Tess..hence they are a diminshed fifth. (OK, that last part was said with tongue FIRMLY implanted in cheek. If you can't poke fun at yourself, then what joy can you have in life?)

{~}:}

However, another thing Vilondra said is that she thought of this new mind-erasing as the "key" that Maria brings up in the intro. I mean, we haven't seen any mind-erasing before OTM/flashbacks in D, have we? Just mind-warping, right??

Correct me if I'm being a dinkus.

Perfect fourth. Ahh.

Evid in regards to Tess claiming the book proved it was their destiny and all that kinda stuff, it could be passed off as just looking at the pictures of the four of them in the book. Up until the whole I-can-give-you-answers speech to Michael. A little fishy. Also, this destiny book...eh, well I've always been suspicious of it. We have been shown absolutely no evidence that Tess didn't just take a scrap of metal, look at the Podsters, and put their faces on a page, and then inscribe some freaky heiroglyphics on the rest. Up until this whole going home thing, which she could have known all along from Harding. But then this just goes back to the whole decoding thing.

Have any of you RBI's put together the sequence of events occuring between Alex getting the Thai food, and his meeting his demise at the Valenti's? There are a couple of things that are really bothering me. First of all, at what point was Alex's mind close to empty? He seemed okay in VLV, HOM, and the beginning of CYN. Maybe he was a bit subdued, but not empty. He appeared to remember Is. pretty well, and kept referring to not doing things "like I did before..."

The second thing bothering me about this is when did the murder actually occur? I'm not sure Kyle's "mirror memories" were even of the same day. He may have a memory of Alex coming to Tess spouting the beginning of the book for her (?)on one night and another memory of Alex crumbling later in time.

It was dark when Kyle hauled out the "duffle bag" and yet everyone seemed to go to the Crashdown after Liz and Maria talked to Alex that fateful evening, including Tess and Kyle. So Tess must have been very busy that night to ditch the "luggage," go back and pick up Kyle, and then head to the Crashdown. I need to go back and see if Tess and Kyle are wearing the same clothing in the Crashdown as they were depicted in the Valenti's home. I may not have time in the next few days so if someone else wants to check it out, that would be great. Frankly I'm wondering if the murder occured on another evening and a shapeshifter took the form of Alex until the night of the accident. If someone were helping Tess, they might have wanted to get more time to stage the death as a suicide, since presumably Alex's death was not in anyone's original plan. The clothes they're wearing could be a clue. Sorry if my ramblings are incoherent. suffering from mindfog... -HH

quote:Originally posted by tp:
Thanks Zero for the new thread!!

This DB is sooooo disturbing me to no end!! This book came directly from Tess. She took the DB along with her to the cliff in FS and handed it over to Max who threw it away, but she insisted on giving it to Michael. Tess told Michael that she will fill all of them in when he can convince them that she is not their enemy. The DB is what brought on all this Destiny, mating, that they were engineered and so on. It came from HER!! Who has been mindwarping innocent people, (in fact, killed Alex b/c of it) for HER gain.

So now my question is this: why send Alex away to "translate" it???? I have been thinking, as well as you all, that if it came from Alex - it would be credible. BUT -- the story was he was in Sweden. He was never to remember that he did this; the coming out of his mindwarp was by accident!! How was this "translation" ever going to get into the pod-squad's hands???

Now this may be out there, so please feel free to shoot holes in it!! Alex's features are a lot like Max's. . . . . brown hair, amber eyes, tall. Could she have used him to get pregnant during those two months?? ...
Dialogue from Departure:

Alex: "You did this to me, you sent me to Las Cruses . ."

Tess: Alex, Alex - let me fix your mind -- you're not thinking straight"

Alex: "You mindwarped me for two months WHILE I decoded that SILLY book for you and now there's nothing left for you to mindwarp. You destroyed my mind!! How could you do this to me!! I have nothing (as in erased), I might as well be dead. You can't mindwarp me!"

Maybe she erased his memories of what actually happened (Tess & Alex's sex) and tried to insert the Sweden trip memories. The decoding the SILLY book was a back-up plan in case the "Sweden" trip came out as false!! oh. . . . I don't know!! argggg!!

When Tess said: "He would have told you what I did & I couldn't let that happen." I took that she didn't want Max to find out that she had been mindwarping Alex, and in turn, Max may not trust her or "love" her anymore. BUT, with my speculation, it certainly is shown in a different light.
...

tp, excellent theory! If TPTB used it, then the 'son' that Max wants to save would be Alex's, which would give Max's quest a sense of nobility rather than futility.

Melodius I ***really*** appreciated your post on the last thread about ARCC and how it supports my idea of Liz as a type of Saviour. Now that I think of it, she has been a Saviour many times over, and so her role as the suffering martyr should come as no surprise.

quote:Originally posted by cantbehrit:
...has JK said that he has left clues in the episode's and whatnot? I've recently started watching the episode's again but if he has actually SAID this then...I'm gonna watch them over and over again!
Um, well actually, no. However, we noticed early on some really obvious use of signs like "Danger High Voltage" when M&M were making out, and so we made a little quantum leap from there to looking at all props as significant. See also the words "Shoe Service" cropped by the cameraman to say "hoe vice" in the scene in the rain when Tess first kissed Max last season:

And goodness knows that many works of art have been interpreted to mean things that the creator never thought of--still, I think an artist or writer does not create in a vacuum, and as the audience, we can appreciate how the environment of the art form contributes to the message. Just because TV is at least 30 percent commercials does not mean it's not an art form. In fact these days the art in some of the commericials is quite good. Babbling here. Hope you don't mind.

quote:Originally posted by Evid:
What I thought was strange about the Destiny book was how Tess seemed to know what was in it on 4sq and M2M.

MAX: What about the other hand print pictures Valenti told us about? And how many other victims will there be after tonight? Alex? Maria? Liz!?

TESS: Nobody has to get hurt, Max.

MAX: Sure, until you get what you want.

TESS: It’s not just what I want, it’s what’s meant to be. It’s all in here, Max. Our destiny.

She tells Max, "it's all in here," now why would she say that if later on she needs it translated by Alex?
You also notice in the conversation that when Max says "sure until you get what you want," she goes on to say, "it's what we all want." We see from way back in 4Sq that Tess will kill anyone who who gets in her way of getting what she wants. The first person mentioned was Alex.

She also said this to Max when she picks him up in takes him to the pod chamber.
TESS: I’ll show you everything, and you’ll remember." Don't you think this sounds alot like when Max said "you made me remember" on HOM? Did Max ever remember anything from his past with out Tess's help, just how long has she been helping Max remember??

This is what she tells Michael in M2M,
TESS: You want to know, don’t you? You want all the answers. I can give them to you, but first you have to convince them that I’m not your enemy. Max didn’t tell you about this, did he? Take it. It will prove to them that I don’t want to hurt you. If you convince them then I can explain everything....Evid, I think Tess will go down in some sort of literary infamy as one of the most seductive villains of our time. She was loved, and she was hated; and though it must have been difficult for such a young actress to live with such a reactionary audience, EdR has just as much right as JK to be proud of her role as the Evil Tess.

haniczka, on the other thread, Nemo brilliantly concluded that Max's comment about Alex being "cold, so cold" was indeed a clue that he had been dead for some time. And so, cantbehrit, you might want to take heart from this clue, and use it as an excuse to do some rewatching.

And finally, speaking of Nemo, fallen princess, you can read Nemo's discussion of the chalkboard notes at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/numbers.htm ; it's toward the bottom of the page.

I just got this way out there creepy idea. (Oh no, they sigh and promptly go on to the next post.) WHAT IF, as someone speculated weeks ago, Alex is really Kvar impersonating him? The bod-squad needed a quick coverup since Tess wasn't supposed to kill anyone, so Kvar shapeshifts into Alex while the others scramble to plant clues, pyramid bombs, wierd Leonna links on the computer, stage the bloody auto-accident, etc. COULD KVAR then dreamwalk Isabel into seeing him in the form of Alex's ghost?

You'll have to be patient with me--this is my first post!

I've been a Roswell fan from the very first episode, but only recently have I discovered the infinte world of Roswell Online! I've been reading posts off and on for a few weeks and find it all very fascinating--especially the Mythology Thread.

I have a few questions to put out there, but I'll start first with my thoughts about Tess. Someone may have suggested this long ago...If so, please direct me to where I can read more about it. Thanks.

I'm very curious about what happened to Ava. Here's my idea: Ava is really the fourth alien that goes with the Roswell Pod-Squad. Tess is the fourth from New York. Why did Tess "hatch" so much later than the others? She did say, I belive, that Nasedo was waiting for her when she came out of the pod. Also, the dupes in NY said that they were "too alien" whereas the Rowell 4 were "too human." Tess is certainly a lot more alien than Ava--especially if she (Tess) remembers things from their planet. Ava seems a lot more compassionate, emotional, and, therefore, human--note Ava's collages on the Silverhandprint site.

Anyway, I'm interested to hear what all of you RBI experts think of my idea.

-Dreamer At Heart

Hey, I just thought I would add my two cents to this one. It seemed obvious to me that the scene at the Crashdown in CYN happened at the END of Liz and Maria's shift. When they left Alex's they were heading to work. When the scene opened with them in the crashdown...Maria was cleaning up and Liz was counting receipts...so to me, I thought it was at the end of the shift. The Crashdown was also empty, except for the Scooby Gang, so it was another indication for me that it was the end of the evening. However, I think the biggest clue that it was the end of the shift, was Liz's counting the receipts out. Yes????

{~}:}

If you're a recent arrival and like the Mythology thread (or the Science Fiction or Symbolism threads, close cousins), be sure to visit the maxcedo archive: http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/

On the question of whether Ava and Tess somehow got switched, a lot of us have wondered about that. One thread back, I think, Palomino raised the long-simmering issue "What if Tess is not Tess?" Last year, soon after Tess arrived, tepp questioned her origins because she seemed such a misfit. Also there seem to be many symbolic hints that something is up about this. In the S2 opener (of which K. Heigl said almost every word was significant), Alex mentions the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." (At the Resurrection Theater!) Well, cuckoos don't make nests, they discard an egg from someone else's nest and substitute one of their own. (And then there's GraceKel's NO SUB sign behind Tess in S1.)

In this connection, there's an intriguing print on a wall of the Evans house: it has two rows of four dots each, and one of each four is colored differently from the others. This print has been there since S1, and it's still there -- Max walks past it when going to talk with Isabel on the "morning after." There's a similar effect with two rows of pictures at school, in the room where Max kissed Tess at the prom (also seen earlier, at the departure for Las Vegas). Again, one frame in each row looks mismatched.

So there are a lot of little things that could fit with a switched-Tess theory. Maybe next season some of this mystification will get cleared up.

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:
tp, excellent theory! If TPTB used it, then the 'son' that Max wants to save would be Alex's, which would give Max's quest a sense of nobility rather than futility.

I also send a bravo out to tp for the "Alex is the father of Tess' baby" theory and a WORD to shapeshifter... Max saving ALEX's son would certainly be a much more noble cause then Max hunting for the ill-begotten fruit of his royal loins. Max saves Alex's son, I'm not sure how this would work out... but I think this would definitely be a heartwrenching story waiting to happen when/if Isabel would get involved in this scenario. Alex's son would be like a piece of Alex Isabel could hang on to for the rest of her life... Alex is dead, but she can raise or at least be part of his son's life. The son that she will never have with Alex. Yes, I was feeling the Stargazer love after CYN and DEP, I honestly think few didn't.

I think tp touched on this in her post, but in light of the "Leanna is not Leanna" Alex ramblings.... and Alex's seeming "affection" and "relationship" with Leanna which he tells Liz about in TSAP... Alex seemed to have a *very* intimate relationship with this Leanna. If Leanna turned out to be Tess; could Alex have been "intimate" with Tess, warped to believe she was Leanna? AKA, had sex with Tess? Now this would have involved some pretty impressive warping on Tess' part, but as tp comments - Alex said his mind was "empty" and "destroyed". Would the mindwarping to translate the book have been sufficient to "destroy" Alex's mind? Or was Tess warping/erasing MUCH more than just the translating of the DB?? It's the erasing/warping of the sex that was the true destruction of Alex's mind?

I could very well understand that Alex might have been (much?) easier to *warp* into doing something like this as opposed to Max (Max with a hybrid, arguably stronger, mind). So Tess empregnates herself with Alex's baby, knowing she'll never get Max to sleep with her. Possibly testing him with the kiss in HOM and realizing how much effort a kiss alone took out of her? She decides she can only make Max believe the sex was real, but can't actually make him do it? She doesn't have time to seduce him (the human way) into the real thing? Due to her hurry to get off the planet (for whatever reasons)?

quote:Melodius I ***really*** appreciated your post on the last thread about ARCC and how it supports my idea of Liz as a type of Saviour. Now that I think of it, she has been a Saviour many times over, and so her role as the suffering martyr should come as no surprise.

I had to acknowledge you SS, when Max said that line to Liz I *immediately* thought of your theory. It really sunk in how much symbolism there is behind Liz... Liz as this savior. Liz as the "suffering martyr". "La sufrida". The tragic hero. I'm hoping, however, that our tragic hero has some kind of happy ending, although that probably would go against the idea of "tragic" and "martyr"... I'm hanging on to the hope our martyr gets her King (and doesn't meet the classic martyr fate and die or something else horrible)

Melodious

EVID-my half crazed POD BUD--thanks for that!!! I was reading your post the only thing I have to tell you is Tess says "ITS NOT JUST WHAT I WANT" "ITS WHATS MEANT TO BE" "ITS OUR DESTINY".
But you got me to thinking about the order of the names too--LOL---Alex, Maria, LIZ!!!!
Remember Alex kept referring to his heart almost like he was dead already???? I just thought of the fact that in ITLATTB Maria comes in to Liz and tells her I just want my friend back(not exact words here) I don't know if I am EVEN ALIVE ANYMORE!!!!! Is this an indication that Maria was being MW too? She was starting to have that DEAD feeling too!!! I don't know it just sort of struck me.

TP--I love that theory of yours--very good one and very much a possibility I think!!!Yes maybe Alex was having a love affair with Leanna and it wasn't Leanna at all!!!
Why was Alex chosen to decode this material? Well it could simply be because he was good with computers but I keep coming back to that NYPD BLUE????LOL---Courtney says "CHILL NYPD-BLUE" talking about Alex, while Max was in NY a police car kept coming around, sirens and all and I kept thinking of Alex LOL!!! And they did take the time to show Alex dancing in the Crashdown again in Cry Your Name when Liz was remembering him(although she wasn't even at the party yet to see this--big chad there LOl)
Everytime I try to decode that NYPD Blue--the only thing I come up with is New York Protector-Dupes!!!! Also if we go back to Summer of 47 I remember many of us thinking how S Cavett was dressed in the rancher theme much like TICTAC in SH?

Roswelldiva I have obviously offended you so for this I apologize I have certainly enjoyed many of your theories on these threads so I hope you will return.

Who else is praying that Max will be doing some tapping next season? LOL!!!

As far as what the writers intentions are--in Season1 I was convinced they had this big plan--Season2 has made me question this greatly--but my take of what they do is it seems to me that they write the story to keep ALL OPTIONS OPEN TO THEM---and decide later it this a go or is this going to take a turn somewhere else. Thats just my opinion I have no inside knowledge sitting on the East coast!!!

... She did say, I believe, that Nasedo was waiting for her when she came out of the pod.

IMO, if we're to believe that this Nasedo plan Tess reveals in DEP is/was real. Then I was also wondering if Nasedo could have *purposefully* switched the "brides" - use the "more alien" bride that would better suit his means and dastardly plan? Nasedo thought that - due to the Roswell hybrids possibly inherent *human* programming (?) as compared to the Dupes (or the Dupes lack thereof) - Tess, the dupe young bride, would have been easier to "mold" into his plan? Someone who inherently lacked human qualities (which might have been an impediment to "going home"... a bride that was more human would have preferred to stay on Earth - just like Max, Michael and Isabel... or like Max, Mike and Iz.. the more human yb would have ALSO fallen for a human at some point)?

Ava also is rather perplexing in comparison to Tess and their interactions with Liz. When Ava finds out Liz's "closeness" to Max... she still remained seemingly very friendly with Liz. When Tess discovers Max/Liz's relationship, Tess is immediately *at war* basically with Liz (kissing Max in front of Liz, warping Max, rubbing it in Liz's face - TLV). Ava and Liz discussed their relationships with Zan and Max like two regular teenage girls (over sodas?). Has Liz EVER been that friendly with Tess the WHOLE time Tess has been in the picture? Can't say they've been the best of friends, Liz in fact has NEVER trusted Tess. And here comes Ava, after a day, Liz is swapping guy stories with her. Ava also openly admits that she didn't think Zan loved her, that he seemed to always be "waiting for someone else". Would Tess EVER have admitted Max DID NOT love her to anyone... *especially* to Liz?? I don't think so. Tess would NEVER give up Max, but Ava almost seemed non-chalant in a way about Zan not loving her? Like she merely accepted it, even though she knew she loved him.

This *Tess/Ava switched* theory could be indeed scary. If we're to presume Zan was "waiting for" LIZ ... and Ava was supposed to be the original Roswell young bride. Then Ava would have quite possibly KNOWN that Max was "waiting for" (destined for?) Liz and NOT stood in their way or would have eventually gracefully bowed out?

quote:Why did Tess "hatch" so much later than the others?

IMO, Nasedo probably switched the pods or prematurely forced Ava out of her Roswell pod? He drops poor Ava in NYC and takes Tess with him. If you recall, Max's ORIGINAL memories (from BALANCE I think) of the hatching NEVER included a curly blonde haired girl floating in a pod. It's only when Tess comes into the picture, Max suddenly remembers his hatching (which are QUITE different then his memories from BALANCE) and looking back at Tess' in her pod. IMO... when Max, Michael and Isabel hatched... the young bride (Ava) was *already* gone and in NYC. Tess was with Nasedo (or Nasedo planted a still unconscious Tess in Ava's pod... so when Tess hatched, she awoke only to Nasedo - and felt alone, hence her story still is valid - it's just that she mindwarped Max to "remember" her... seem familiar?? Probably not unlike what she did in the last story arc of season 2!).

Melodious

Hmpf... or it just shows how truly callous Tess can be in concerns to the death (which she caused) of a measly human.

Some have also speculated Tess was MINDWARPING Max to say those things to Liz, being sarcastic about Tess killing Alex. So... in an indirect way.... Tess was **flat out** CONFESSING to Liz that she killed Alex!! Tess laughing to herself the whole time about it too more than likely.

This would truly make Tess extremely amoral and I would prefer to think she isn't and she really DIDN'T want to kill Alex... so I'm inclined to go along with your theory GraceKel... that Max somehow KNEW Tess killed Alex and it was creeping out of his subconscious via his sarcasm. But even after Tess says she didn't want to kill Alex in DEP... she says "it doesn't matter now". Doesn't matter?! Right. You only killed someone, of course it doesn't matter.

Melodious

Remember when Liz told Max after they discovered Leanna wasn't an alien, "we have to start from the beginning" . . . well that's what I did. Katims gave us a hint in Departure, via the vision Kyle got, to know where to start. HOW ALEX WAS KILLED!!

If one were to assume that Tess didn't mean to kill Alex -- he took her by surprise and she acted on defense by trying to shut Alex up so he wouldn't tell Max ("he would have told you what I did and I couldn't let that happen") that she MW'ed him (whatever MW'ing she did), we can say that she really didn't mean to kill him - it was an accident.

How and when was this translation from Alex ever going to appear to the pod-squad??

Would Liz have had the need and the drive to investigate the trip if Alex never died??

The Sweden trip was a COVER -- unfortunately, Alex started to remember and went crazy from the mindwarp. I don't think this was supposed to happen!!

If it was Tess who wanted to give the translation to go home to the pod-squad, why wouldn't she have handed Max the translation herself or suggested to somehow translate it b/c he was now trusting her, turning to her to find out all about their past or would that be too pushy?? Instead, she supposedly went behind everyone's back to mindwarp Alex to decode the book and then create an elaborate plan to hide this translation with a bomb protecting it??

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE ..... this way!!

*********************

I have a spec, and I hope you can forgive me if it's been said before, but I need to write this down b/c I need a little peace-of-mind.

Tess: "They are not MY enemies!!" . . . . meaning Kivar isn't her enemy, then that would also include Nickolas (Kivar's spokeperson).

Think about Harvest. Right after Max was devasted and alone b/c of Liz's "betrayal", CW's body was miracously discovered and the trap was set in place by the skins to get them to ?? (that little town's name has completely slipped my mind).

Courtney, Michael's follower, destroyed whatever plan that was, b/c Michael killed the husks. No wonder Tess seemed a little miffed at her in WO.

It allways bothered me how Nickolas didn't make a derogatory statement about Tess at the time -- how convenient Nick walked away from the FireBall!!

Next came the Dupes. Lonnie and Rath were, in a way, working with Nickolas. How convenient to lure Max alone, with Tess, to NYC, and have a "meeting" regarding the Granolith. Lonnie and Rath "pumped up" the alien sex to be something great!! Why?? (DREAMERATHEART: I'm starting to buy the theory that Tess is one of the NYC4, too!!) So there you have a leader who doesn't have anyone in his life any more (no Liz, no Is or Michael -- only Tess) and no knowledge of what the Granolith is - why not hand it over to Nickolas? BUT, LIZ saved the day!! Max never conceded to handing over the Granolith, making Nicko quite mad. . . . . so here comes the "tunnel" scene.

Nicko knowing about the "deal" Nacedo made to Kivar, black mails Tess AGAIN -- telling her that the "deal" will never happen because he knows how Max feels about Liz. Tess keeps him cool by handing over the DB, (next best thing to the Granolith) knowing that it was coded in "native-american" and Tess hoped that he wouldn't be able to decode it. The bargaining chip (aka the Granolith) was not even an option for Tess to hand over. Have we ever seen her get into the chamber without anyone else from the pod-squad?? Or maybe she convinced Nicko that she could still follow through with the plan and she kept her "card" (Granolith) to fulfill her end of the deal.

Either way, Nicko took the book and took Alex to "Sweden" to decode it. Alex was a computer genius, as well as, part of the "group" who may know something or other. Alex, in his subconscious fought the MW and set up the file for Liz to find out, knowing if anything happened to him she would find out the truth.

Meanwhile, Tess decides a different approach to the whole Max-thing. She "humanizes" herself, trying to fit in, giving him time, and not pressuring Max till OTM. This was a perfect scenerio to create memories for Max through Brody. She started her mindwarping!!

Then, Alex starts to remember!! He goes to Tess, thinking it was her b/c she is the only alien that HE knows would do this!! Tess' comment to Alex, "you're not thinking straight" has me thinking that she possibly didn't know that Nicko did this "decoding" through Alex. She seemed surprised!!

Alex and his finger drumming -- was it the poster VILONDRA that connected that it was regarding "erasing" of memory? The "Sweden" trip was IMPLANTED memories. If you go with the "spec" that Alex could be the father, this could explain why he said "I have nothing" - as in erased. Tess maybe felt that her "erasing" of the impregnating scheme was the cause of his demise and she tried again to erase or MW him to shut up. "He would have told you what I did and I couldn't let that happen". BUT -- it was actually Nicko's power that created his delirium.

Tess tells Nicko that she is pregnant with Max's baby (me thinks it's Alex's, but she is duping him) and then vola , . . . the translation magically appears for Liz/Maria/Michael telling them how to go home. How convenient!! Nicko knew through Tess that Liz was investigating the death. Could he have helped her find out the truth by having "Leanna" pose in front of them at the concert?? I allways felt the last part of Liz's investigating (BIY) seemed awfully fast and convenient to unravel. It could be possible that Nicko knew that Alex set this computer up, or he got Alex to do this?? My theory kind of ends here!!

Sorry, it is sooooo long. I warned you, didn't I?? If you made it this far, what do you think? Is it plausible??

Your references to the backgrounds are similar to other things I've been reading throughout these threads. I'm eager to find time this summer to re-watch my episodes and look for other clues.

Melodious,
You really spelled out a lot of the details that have been on my mind. We have to see Ava again in Season 3. From what I remember of MITC, we never really saw Tess "kill" the other dupes--Lonnie and Rath. Ever since that episode it's been in the back of my mind that they're still out there. Maybe Tess (as an NY podster) conspired with them to lay low for a while as she worked on her other plans.

Also, I remember how poorly Lonnie and Rath treated Ava. It's like they knew she really wasn't one of them.

Thanks for your responses,
Dreamer At Heart

I could be very well grabbing at straws here, but could there have possibly been foreshadowing of ALL of this in SKIN & BONES? Depending on how far advanced the writers were planning on Alex's death, I can't think they were planning it AT ALL considering we were originally only renewed for 13 eps and Alex's death didn't happen until episode 17. However, I'm throwing this into the mix anyway.

In concerns to Nasedo diddling Whitaker.. Maria replies with...
"I hope he's using birth control."

A few seconds later, there's a quasi exchange between Nasedo and Alex....

NASEDO: Tell me how far this information has been leaked. I need to extinguish every human who has this information.

ALEX: I'm going to assume present company is excluded?

Ironic that later in the season, Alex is basically "extinguished" for the very reason of having *too much information*... not by Nasedo however, but by Tess. Although Tess was seemingly going through with a plan NASEDO had created. So, in a way, Nasedo DID eventually "extinguish" Alex.

Maria's line in concerns to "birth control" is also rather intriguing to me because it's in concerns to alien/human sex. A scene in which Alex is in and a few seconds later he has a piece of dialogue (which has considerable irony in light of recent events). Alex should have been using birth control when "diddling" Leanna aka Tess? Now it's unfortunately too late. Tess became pregnant and is now passing the kid off as Max's?

I suppose the entire scene could even be more ironic considering what Liz says after Nasedo's "extinguishing" statement....

LIZ: Isn't murder what got you into this situation to begin with?

NASEDO: My job is to protect the royal 4. Their survival is critical to the survival of an entire race. ( )

MAX: No one's going to die. Killing people isn't going to solve anything.

Liz is the FIRST to contest Nasedo (and she was apparently very RIGHT to do it especially considering this supposed "plan" he made 40 years ago). FOLLOWED by Max backing her up. Too bad Max didn't stand by Liz's side the ENTIRETY of the season, he might have avoided Stepford Max as well as all the mistakes Stepford Max stumbles into.

Melodious

Makes total sense.

tp as for your post, I can only say WOW. Very well done, and very plausible. If only I could have faith that TPTB are as intelligent as you!!

Edited because the alphabet is a very difficult thing to learn

LIZ: Isn't murder what got you into this situation to begin with?

NASEDO: My job is to protect the royal 4. Their survival is critical to the survival of an entire race. ( )

MAX: No one's going to die. Killing people isn't going to solve anything.

Lately I've been thinking that the theme of "not killing people" and that "life is valuable" is one of the major lessons that Max/King Zan was sent to Earth to learn.

Note what Nicholas said when confronting Max in Wipe Out:

NICHOLAS: What happened to you, guy? You used to determine the fate of entire armies with the flip of a coin.

Later Max heals the children in ARCC.

However, Max does slip (while, I assume, under the influence of Tess) when he sets out to kill Leanna in her dorm room.

But then when he confronts Tess in Departure....

Max: So you just, you just killed him?

Tess: I didn't mean to. His brain was just so weakened by the mindwarp, and... look, none of this matters now.

Max: Life matters Tess. My life, your life, his...

Why didn't he remember this when he was hunting down Leanna?

I'm sure there are many more references to this throughout both seasons. I just can't think of others right now off the top of my head. Feel free to add any...maybe we could start a list.

-Dreamer At Heart

...I'm hoping, however, that our tragic hero has some kind of happy ending, although that probably would go against the idea of "tragic" and "martyr"... Melodious
I think that Max saying "Tess's baby" specifically to Liz is significant, but I'm not sure yet of the implications.
Anyway, here is a mythic character who is the martyr with the happy ending:

quote:Originally posted by Melodious1:
the ill-begotten fruit of his royal loins

I'm getting too sleepy to comment on all the great posts here, but tp, one point you bring up that I want to focus on is that Tess ***really*** treated Courtney like the enemy. Remember when she accused Courtney of leading the Skins to Roswell? Hmmm...

And DreamerAtHeart, I'm glad you read the Season One Archive and saw that we talked about time travel before Season 2 was even a gleam in JK's eye.

And also Mel, that scene with Liz rebuking Nasedo in S&B really stood out to me too when I just rewatched it post-Departure. ***sigh*** that was what was so good about rehashing the reruns last summer--the post-Destiny POV. So, are we scheduling our selves to watch another particular ep next Monday?
And DreamerAtHeart, ITA that S&B scene is totally echoed in the final granolith chamber scene.
Ooo, I just thought of something--will we not be able to go back to the Pod Chamber?

And that comment by the geek guy at Las Cruces about the Destiny Book language looking Native American...Could River Dog have taught Nasedo to write? Maybe RD translated it and was its scribe and so knows the origins and true meaning? Remember when he told Liz to be sure Max was worthy of her? Is anyone following this sleep deprived ramble?

I would like to put together some of Season 2's theories; right now I'm just trying to decide which to cover, then I want to invite some of our more learned and verbose posters to tell them in prose.
So far I am thinking of including Reggie's Theory of Liz's Hair (with mention, of course, of shapeshifter's alternate version ) and The Theory of the Switch of Tess and Ava. The Mystery of the Real Vilondra Theories, Probably Baby theories. Anymore come to mind? Wow, and the new Season starts in late August! Not much time.

First WELCOME all newbies!

Dreamer at Heart - just wanted to throw out one more "killing" adverted scene - when Max goes to kill Brody and has those flashes of death that result in him deciding not to kill Brody. Always wondered about the flash of the dead, skinned cows (?) head that was mixed in there? Maybe that was Max actually retrieving a memory of what Tess/Ava actually looked like on Antar? Couldn't resist - sorry!

Night All !
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Night All !
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

!!

Ok, what if RD has the true translation to the Desitny Book? Excuse me for not remembering but where did they get/find the Destiny book? Was it from Nesedo or what? Maybe RD could explain..I'd like to see him next season.

Also, I've been rewatching the episodes and last night I was at "285 South" but I thought it was strange that when Michael was trying to see the "vision" when holding the key at Atherton's House it didn't work. Then Maria stood next to him and said, "Try it again" Then it worked. I think that this says something about the Aliens/Humans - that they were meant to work together, be together.

Like Max said in that same episode to Liz (when she was apologizing for getting them into this mess - by him telling her their "secret") He says, "I didn't feel like my life started until I told you" and she said "Me too".

I mean look at the Dupes..Zan didn't really love Ava, he seemed to always be searching for someone else. Lonnie didn't really love Rath...she was willing to leave him behind. They were all so confused and I think its because they didn't have their human counterparts.

But the "searching" for someone else is significant, because he was obviously looking for Liz (his Destiny) - brilliant, willing "do anything" for them at her own risk...then you have Liz's "second in command" - side kick - a perfect match for Michael. And Liz trusted her with this secret from the minute she found out. (I know this thread it about Liz but I think its funny how Maria - Liz's best friend was the one "for" Michael.

I'd like to also say that I've always really thought Ava and Tess were switched. From the minute I saw the interaction between all of them it seemed really obvious to me. Ava was more human, she wasn't concerned with going hom, she didn't even care about going back to NYC with them all. She helped Liz find out about her powers. She was the complete opposite of Tess..as were Lonnie, Rath & Zan (from what we saw of him) to Is, Michael, and Max.

Gosh, you guys can make something believable in one post! The idea that the baby is Alex's makes since..but I'm still stuck on the Kyle thing.

Also, doesn't anyone think that when Tess said "he would of told you what I did and I couldn't let that happen" wasn't all about the DB? I mean, it just seemed more of a significant statement...like she was talking about something else or something more than the DB. It just seems like a HUGE statement to me and that next season Liz will want to find out what exactly it was that Tess did.

When Liz, Maria & Michael stumbled across the DB and then Michael hands it to Max literally in the next scene and says we can "go home now" my mom and I looked at each other and said, "well, that was just too easy"

I'm also still stuck on Leanna possibly being the other pod protector but I guess that really doesn't quite work with the "Alien bomb" and DB setup..although she may of just not counted on Liz to be so quick to figure it all out and that bomb was actually meant for Tess for when she came to retrieve the "translation".

Oh well...I'm off to feed kids and play games...what a life!

Maybe you can all tear apart my post and tell me why I make no sense...I'm not as good as this as all of you!

Cantbehrit

Just a few ideas to get down.

1.) Tapping: I believe that not only is tapping an indicator of memory BLOCKING (I don't want to say erasing, because they all eventually remember the things they weren't supposed to), but it only happens when the 'victim' is about to break out of the warp/push through the block. Like someone said before, the tapping may be the mind unconciously working things out. So the finger tapping means that they are near breaking out, but they need a trigger. For Alex it was Thai food (because he ate it at Las Cruces) and for Kyle it was the mirror (possibly because from where he stood he actually saw the whole scene reflected in that mirror.)

That would mean that unless the blocking starts to wear off and Max's brain begins to work things out, we won't see him tapping. I'm still curious as to what Amy's trigger was though, especially since she didn't seem to break down the block permanantly.

Also, what about the binary code? Did it actually have some significance to the DB? Was it Alex leaving a clue for Liz? Just one big fat CHAD?

2.) This goes back to the question of whether or not FMax is a mindwarp. I'm of the mind he's not. First there was that scene in the beginning, second - why would Tess tell Liz (through FMax) about the granolith? And then there are all the little facts that FMax knows about Liz, how she loves 'I Shall Believe', the mariachi band and flowers, etc. Melodius, I'm pretty much with you on TEOTW.

3.) haniczka: If Alex was a shapeshifter during CYN, why would he be tapping? A shapeshifter wouldn't have been trying to break out of a memoryblock. That would mean that the clue that Liz used to unravel the entire mystery is wrong, or given to her by an evil shapeshifter?

And also, isn't Khivar on Antar?

4.) tp: The more I think about your Alex-daddy theory, the more I like it. I agree with everyone who says that this would make the quest to save 'Tess'' baby more noble and uplifting. That baby would be the most loved baby in the entire world. I think I would just cry if that actually happened - it would be so awesome.

Later all

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

Maybe it was a premonition of Spot-a face only a mother could love.

I sure like the Alex is the real father theory. Since he was an only child (he was wasn't he?) the baby if returned could give his parents great comfort, as well as everyone else. It also fits in very well with all the weird things said, as you have all pointed out. Good job.

Here is a supporting peice of "evidence" no one has brought up yet. Go back to Prom, what did you all think of Tess' dress? My first thought was "it doesn't fit her right", and I thought that was strange. However, if Alex is the father then she was pregnant during Prom. And it would explain the dress looking a bit small, or ill-fitted. Okay maybe that is silly, but hey, I thought I'd share it anyways!!

~Sheri

Shapeshifter: I'm thinking that when Tess said, "Their not MY ENEMIES" -- she didn't mean that their her allies either. The "deal" that Nacedo made with Kivar brought about PEACE amongst the two groups. They maybe on speaking terms, but not working together.

But then again, maybe she became allies with the skins after Nacedo died. Courtney really wasn't on the skins side now was she?? She is a Michael/Rath follower and filled-in Michael with regards to the husks' life span -- Michael was the one, with the help of Courtney, that killed the husks.

Tess' comment to her that she was the one that brought the skins right to them -- I'm looking at it as being a cover -- to cover her butt!! Pass the blame on someone else so noone looks to Tess!! ???? hmmmmm

I would love to sit here and read this thread, but unfortunately, for the next few days I'll be MIA. Can't wait to catch up on Monday!!!

Cantbehrit

Cantbehrit

Zeroautumn, about: quote:...Also, what about the binary code? Did it actually have some significance to the DB? Was it Alex leaving a clue for Liz? Just one big fat CHAD?The screen saver on the computer at Las Cruces shows those symbols, so I guess we sort of settled for it being that.
And Good point that Alex couldn't be a shape shifter in CYN--unless he was a mindwarped one. and re: quote:...4.) tp: The more I think about your Alex-daddy theory, the more I like it. I agree with everyone who says that this would make the quest to save 'Tess'' baby more noble and uplifting. That baby would be the most loved baby in the entire world. I think I would just cry if that actually happened - it would be so awesome...I wonder if TPTB will go with this? Do we get credit if they do?
Who was that cartoon character (dating myself) who used to say, "That's a joke, son" ?

And finally, tp (for when you get back), re: quote:...Tess' comment to her[Courtney] that she was the one that brought the skins right to them -- I'm looking at it as being a cover -- to cover her butt!! Pass the blame on someone else so noone looks to Tess!! ???? hmmmmm...Yes! That's exactly what I was thinking, but couldn't quite get into words.

quote:Originally posted by tp:
Tess: "They are not MY enemies!!" . . . . meaning Kivar isn't her enemy, then that would also include Nickolas (Kivar's spokeperson)...

-- how convenient Nick walked away from the FireBall!!

I don't know if I'm alone in this theory... but if Niko was helping Tess (which wouldn't surprise me at all if it's true - actually, I think it's the most likely scenario)... I believe Niko HIMSELF caused that firewall THROUGH Tess (possibly amplifying Tess' own power with his own). Tess says she tried to mindwarp the Skins to see fire, but it *ended up* as either such a powerful mindwarp that the Skins minds/bodies compensated the warp as REAL fire (and disintegrated themselves basically) OR fire *really* materialized. Tess claims that she doesn't know how she did it, and at the time, she might not have known.

Tess *already* knows the magnitude of Nikolas' power - at least having some feel for it - earlier that very day when she mindwarped him. Tess says her head felt like it got hit with a sledgehammer, "I've never come up against power like that before." When *she* (via Niko) made that firewall materialize... she got a small taste of what Niko's power feels like. It was the bait to try and lure Tess to the darkside (and go through with Nasedo's plan)?

Tess is ALREADY aware of Nasedo's 40 yr old deal with the Skins... but it's not until MITC, when Lonnie and Rath abscond with Tess (yet surprisingly DO NOT harm her)... she's made aware of what EXACTLY happened in WIPE OUT? When Max finds her, Tess has a sort of dazed expression again and ONCE AGAIN, conveniently *doesn't* know what she did or what happened. Before Max ran in... this is when Niko or Lonnie/Rath told Tess that she can be "one of them"... and she can have that "power" like Nikolas' (and more) forever AND go home, if she just helps them win? She seems awful eager to "get back home, home to Roswell" (a place she never considered "home" before) when Max finds her... this eagerness was actually Tess' acceptance in ultimately betraying the podsters? THIS is when Tess is fully pushed to the darkside? This all still coincides with your "Niko blackmails Tess in MITC" theory tp.

After all, Max is a BOY and not a King. Kivar is the King... better to be on the powerful, winning side, right? I quote a line from "The Mummy"... "Better to be the right hand of the devil then in his path".

quote:It always bothered me how Nickolas didn't make a derogatory statement about Tess at the time

Niko didn't exactly make a derogatory statement, but when he said that line to Max...
"Luckily for me, you continue to put your faith in the wrong people."

Was it just me or did Niko not look RIGHT at Tess when he said that line??

quote:(that little town's name has completely slipped my mind).

Copper Summit, AZ.

quote:Next came the Dupes. Lonnie and Rath were, in a way, working with Nickolas.

In light of the "Alex is the father of Tess' baby" theories... something Lonnie says to Alex in MTD could be considered *revealing* imo...

LONNIE: No 3 ways tonight, opie. Maybe later.

At the time, I think Lonnie was referring to herself, Isabel and Alex. However, if it's Lonnie, Nikolas and Tess who are the main players in this Alex conspiracy. Then Alex's "control" could have been coming from THREE different angles. Lonnie's dreamwalking ability, Niko's massive energy (and probably mindraping) and Tess' mindwarping/erasing. Three different sides of control would CERTAINLY destroy poor Alex's mind. While Alex is in Las Cruces, Lonnie and Niko take over the *warping/mind control*... but Tess makes brief visits (or at least ONE visit) to Alex while he's in LC. Tess gets Alex to have sex with her (warping him to see Leanna)... and gets pregnant with Alex's baby (because of all the available HUMAN, disposable males in Roswell, Alex looks the most like Max). The fact that Lonnie's line in MTD was also a lude reference to sex certainly accentuates my belief.

Lonnie, Niko and Tess ONLY needed Tess to be pregnant to lure the podsters back to Antar? It didn't necessarily matter by whom, just as long as Max was convinced she's pregnant and "the baby is sick, boo hoo" blah di blah? Max's "heir" was NEVER part of Kivar's plan?

quote:How convenient to lure Max alone, with Tess, to NYC, and have a "meeting" regarding the Granolith

Something Tess says to Max, MITC, in concerns to Nikolas has ALWAYS bugged me. Even moreso considering Niko DID survive that firewall and in light of what's revealed in DEPARTURE.

*****
(Max and Tess leave to think about the offer)

MAX: Cut a deal with Nicholas? I don't trust him any more than I can throw him.

TESS: You could throw him pretty far.
******

I don't know about any of y'all, but didn't it seem like Tess was almost *encouraging* Max to TRUST Nikolas here? After all, Nasedo trusted him!!

quote:Lonnie and Rath "pumped up" the alien sex to be something great!! Why??

Sex sells! If Lonnie/Rath are in on this huge conspiracy (or at least Lonnie)... then what was she going to do to help Nikolas and Tess push Max to her? Go on and on about how much they LOVED each other in the past life? Which is quite possibly fraudulent and not that it makes any difference because Max has NEVER loved Tess anyway. Lonnie could have babbled about love forever, but Max wouldn't have budged (and she probably knew it because of how she knew Max felt for Liz via Liz's picture in Max's drawer - MTD "This must be his bit**"). It wouldn't surprise me at all if Lonnie used her "relationship" with Rath to SELL alien sex to Max/Tess! Memories of "love" coming from Lonnie probably wouldn't mean all that much anyway. Lonnie doesn't seem like the type that could make a "love story" sound believable and who knows if what she was "remembering" could have been trusted anyway.

HOWEVER, memories of Zan/Ava's "love" (rather grossly convenient, considering the timing) coming from LAREK in OFF THE MENU is a *different* ball park all together. Larek is an ALIEN who says he was close to both Zan and Ava. It seems Larek was also (or could have been) the median that brought Zan and Ava together... he knew them both but in the "swimming" memory - it seemed at that point Zan had never seen Ava before in his life, Zan didn't know her, but Larek did. It ALMOST makes me wonder if Larek was/is more AVA's friend than Zan's?? Could Larek also be in cahoots with Kivar?? Could Larek BE Kivar?? Max, Mike and Iz don't remember a damn thing anyway. Tess knows it and she probably told Niko, who then told Kivar. Kivar emissaries a human under the "guise" of Larek ("a friend to the family", although Kivar could have possibly been close to the family as well and BETRAYED them all, kind of like Iago in OTHELLO - which is why he was so completely successful in his victory - the Royals never suspected this "friend" would betray them?).

Also, "Larek" is the one pushing this DEAL in MITC, *not* Nikolas....

LAREK: I'd be surprised if you didn't (Max thinking about the deal). But be quick about it. Holding onto these bodies isn't easy. In fact, it's chewing up huge amounts of our resources. 20 minutes, Max...then I need an answer.

Now I'm more suspicious then ever of Larek thinking about all of this!! Max trusts WAY too easily!!

quote:Alex starts to remember!! He goes to Tess, thinking it was her b/c she is the only alien that HE knows would do this!!

...she possibly didn't know that Nicko did this "decoding" through Alex. She seemed surprised!!

She was probably surprised not necessarily because of Niko's involvement ... I have a distinct feeling if he WAS involved she knew very well what he was doing... but my idea that it was Lonnie, Nikolas AND Tess *controlling* Alex.... Tess was surprised Alex was able to break out of the MASSIVE control AT ALL. The fact that Alex DID break out of the HUGE warp is possibly yet another factor (or the ONLY factor) which pushes Tess to HURRY up the plan. She realizes the warps (no matter HOW many people are doing the warping or how powerful) DO NOT last and all of her own warps (regardless of how much Nikolas is possibly "amplifying" her power)... ARE NOT going to last. The warps on Alex? The warps on Kyle? The warps on Max? The warps on Michael? etc etc... They would have ALL fallen apart if she didn't get the podsters to Antar and NOW.

Poor Alex. If Lonnie, Niko and Tess were all controlling him, he didn't even know half of what was being done to him. Although was Tess the one he specifically went to because he figured she was the only one capable of doing something like this... or did he also remember her from Las Cruces?? If Alex thought he was being controlled by ALIENS, then he would have surely gone to Isabel, Liz, Max, Maria, etc for help or told them about the situation before anyone... NOT Tess. But he specifically goes to Tess and CONFRONTS HER. He KNOWS seemingly without a shadow of a doubt Tess was controlling him. HOW could he have been so sure?!

quote:Tess tells Nicko that she is pregnant with Max's baby (me thinks it's Alex's, but she is duping him) and then vola , . . . the translation magically appears for Liz/Maria/Michael telling them how to go home. How convenient!!

"Convenient" could very well describe MOST of the events of the last six episodes of Season 2. EVERYTHING was so painfully convenient ... everything basically goes into question. Tess' actions and beyond.

Sorry about the length of this, but I had to go point by point in your post tp, or I would have forgotten something

Melodious

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:
Anyway, here is a mythic character who is the martyr with the happy ending...

But that looks like Michael driving the couch SS, are you saying Liz is going to find her happiness by running off with Michael?

quote:Could River Dog have taught Nasedo to write?

I'm not sure about this. The same symbols that are in the Destiny Book and the cave wall are also on the various alien devices... the orb communicators, that alien beeper thing that Brody activates in OTM. I presume Nasedo always knew how to write and KNEW what the symbols meant. After all, acc. to River Dog, Nasedo is the one who wrote those symbols on the cave wall. Was he just copying it from the DB or was that some sort of message from Nasedo (or *A* Nasedo, not necessarily Ed Harding)?

quote:Maybe RD translated it and was its scribe and so knows the origins and true meaning?

MAX: Did he draw this?

RIVER DOG: Yes. He said someday you would come.

In this line, RD says that Nasedo "said" someday they'd come. As if he was told by Nasedo himself... but as in "said", he could have also meant Nasedo "said" it... then wrote it (because RD brings all this up after Max refers to what's been drawn). Was RD *there* when Nasedo was writing on the wall? Was Nasedo "dictating" per se?

MAX: It seems familiar, like I know what it means, but I can't remember.

LIZ: It must be some sort of language.

RIVER DOG: He was afraid they were going to kill him.

Now here he doesn't say "Nasedo said"... he says *they* were afraid he was going to kill him (I'm almost convinced Nasedo WAS dictating and RD was there listening to everything. Did Nasedo know then that the podsters WOULDN'T be able to remember the alien language - hence Nas had to tell RD what the wall said in order for RD to be able to tell the podsters someday?). The Skins? Is this why Nasedo made that deal with them? Or was the Nasedo RD was referring to above another Nasedo??

MAX: Who was?

RIVER DOG: I don't know. He felt they were close to finding him, so he had to leave. I promised I would never share this information with anyone unless they passed the test.

Or did Nasedo find them and make that deal? OR did Ed Harding ALREADY make the deal and this RD's Nasedo somehow KNEW it?? So RD's Nasedo was now living in fear of being hunted and liquidated by the Skins because of Edsedo's treachery?

MAX: So this has some type of meaning. It's some kind of message for us. Maybe it's some type of warning. I don't know.

RIVER DOG: It's time for you to leave.

Before Max can really study the symbols River Dog makes them leave? WHY?? Was RD late for Bingo night or something?? Why did they have to leave? Afraid that someone would discover them there and start asking questions? What harm is there in looking at - in all accounts - Native American (styled) art/graffiti on a cave wall? It almost seemed like RD didn't want Max to figure out what it said? Although RD takes them back to the cave again in BALANCE... although not really like Max has time to study the symbols then either (Michael was sick), he had other issues on his mind.

quote:Remember when he told Liz to be sure Max was worthy of her?

That scene haunts me SS... as I'm sure it does most Liz Mythers Did RD warn Liz - a fellow human being to beware of getting too close to those "not of this earth"? Or did RD know something even more? About Liz? About Max?

Suffice to say... I'm still very wary to tie in anything so heavily between Season 1 and Season 2... despite the resurfacing of the pendant from 285 SOUTH/RIVER DOG. I'd *hope* we see a return of River Dog, but I'm not counting on it.

Melodious

Nemo Thx for the credit

zeroAutumn Amy's memory trigger was twofold. When Liz & Maria came into the kitchen, Amy was holding a "George W is an " T-shirt. Maria spoke and Amy went back to "normal," and started tapping on the stove. Then, she picked up the kettle and went to the sink. My take is that she was up, came into the kitchen to make tea (we know from CYN that she drinks tea), and the tea combined with the T-shirt triggered her memory. Why the tea? B/c that's what Brody says at the end of OTM, once the cavalry have arrived: "Who wants tea?"

fallen Thx for posting Vilondra & Ist42's ideas.

I've gone back and watched HOM on (not too in-depth, but...). Max isn't tapping his fingers, but he IS extra-fidgety. In Alex's room in CYN, we all know that he picked up the baseball glove. He's mostly just holding it till after the concert tickets come up, then he's sort of massaging it, and he only puts it down when he starts yelling at Liz. In ITLITB, when the pod squad is walking along that graveled path, Max is throwing bits of gravel or rock, and then he snaps at Isabel about Liz's investigations. This is the scene where Tess had all those weird smiles (now we know why!). Then, we've pointed out before that in BIY Max was biting his nails while picking up his yearbook--and so was Michael--something I've never seen either one of them do. SO the signs are subtle, but they're present. But they should be more subtle. One of the things that's always struck me about Max is his economy of movement: every small motion means something. His nods are nearly imperceptible--think Destiny, to the Sheriff re: Mi/I's alien status. He's NOT a guy that waves his hands around when talking. SO the fact that he is fidgeting is IMPORTANT!
~Tas

Great theorizing everyone.
I think it's a great possibility that Alex is the father. Heck for the disregard Tess seems to have about sex she might not even know if it's Alex's or Kyle's. She might have had sex with both. I however lean more towards the baby being Kyle's, she was very attracted to him even more so then she was to Max.
SciFi-Mom: I think it was you that said Tess's prom dress didn't fit her, that it looked to tight. You know what I said as soon as I saw her in it? "Wow Tess you better lay off the strawberry short cake with tobasco, your getting a little to round around the middle." But maybe she was suppose to look pregnant. Good catch.

So do any of you have any idea as to how far along the pregnacy was when Max connected with the baby? How far along should she be with the babies hand being that large?
If she got pregnant around Christmas time when she and Kyle seemed to be getting closer, she would be about 5 months pregnant. I was hardly showing at all during my 5th month but my baby was already becoming well defined. So to me this sounds about right.
I really think that Kyle is the father. Tess calling the Sheriff "Dad" might have been a big clue. Not as in her father, but as her father-inlaw.

Evid

I love either idea of it being Alex's or Kyle's birthday - IF we have to have the baby be real. I remember how Tess brushed off Liz having sex with Kyle as they sat in the Jeep in Copper Summit - as if she HAD HAD SEX before and it was no big deal! Ummm ...! Not the response you would expect from someone who had never experienced it. Which leads me to believe that her having sex with either or both of Kyle and Alex is possible for a storyline. Whatever happens - I just DON'T want her to have had Tex with Max or for the baby to be his! (Haven't used that in a while!) But - even though there is plenty of evidence allowing for the baby - IF it is real - to be the product of sex with either Kyle or Alex - it will depend on what the writers want to do - and we won't know that for some time. And if they continue with the course of Season 2, it will be dragged out ad nauseum for most of Season 3!

I've been reading other threads - which I rarely do due to time - and it seems almost unanimous regardless of the "group" that they do not want Season 3 to be "the pursuit of Max Junior" season! I can't believe that the writers or JK would ignore this widely held reaction - but then, what do I know??

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Evid

I thought the exact same thing!

Cantbehrit

So with that said I've said this a few times now I really like the idea of the baby being Kyle or Alex's..(I don't like it) but it is making sense.

The thing about the Alex thing that kind of bother's me though is - will the writer's go there? I mean assuming she did get Alex to sleep with her that would be like rape & then she kills him...that might me a little harsh.

With Kyle - it would be the same except that she didn't kill him and atleast the poor child would have a father...

Cantbehrit

Melodious

Well, relatively speaking. Max is out to kill someone, too; on mere suspicion. (Compare from in Ask Not- "This isn't us.") And when Liz says she "saved herself" for him, Max isn't particularly interested.

Clearly, they are mentally "already gone". Nothing that happens here will affect them in the future, because they'll be on Twilo. Even Sherrif Hansen isn't going to pursue them that far.

And BTW: if Tess is being MW'ed by someone, she may have been commanded to Go Home, and so she went with or without Max, etc.

Also, what about the binary code? Did it actually have some significance to the DB? Was it Alex leaving a clue for Liz? Just one big fat CHAD?

[/B]

Being relatively new, I don't know if you picked the code apart already or not, but here's some analysis I did back in April. I sent the following to crashdown based on a "News" article, but I never saw my comments posted.

----
The "News" article "Random CYN Bits of News" said:

"The original Binary number: 1110 0100 1001 1101 1001
The converted Decimal number: 936409
Binary number broken into 4-bit words then converted: 12 4 9 13 9
Those numbers converted to equal the alphabet they represent: LDIMI"

My thoughts:

Actually, breaking the code into 4-bit words converts to: 14, 4, 9, 13, 9 which would convert to the letters NDIMI.

However, it's really more appropriate to break the code into 5-bit words since you need 5 digits in binary to create the number 26 and, therefore, generate the entire alphabet. If you do this to the code you get:

11100 10010 01110 11001 (Base 2) = 28, 18, 14, 24 (Base 10)

But, since there's no 28th letter, that makes me think this doesn't convert to letters. However, if I do this same thing with the code backwards, I get:

10011 01110 01001 00111 (Base2) = 19, 14, 9, 7 (Base10) = SNIG (letters?)

Any other ideas?

By the way, the entire code backwards as a 20-bit word equals 637223 in base 10.

-Dreamer at Heart and Mathematician by Trade

But the numbers do have to be significant and even though I don't know what they mean, you obviously do...from the letter you stated "MIND" was a part of that..hmm?

Cantbehrit

following my two post rule - read and respond to the last two posts -

Aliens have their own ethic systems. They can get away with this time of behavior, because they are ALIENS and not humans....

Maria: "Act like a human being... Oops, maybe that's the problem"

*can't believe I am paraphrasing TH.

But the numbers do have to be significant and even though I don't know what they mean, you obviously do...from the letter you stated "MIND" was a part of that..hmm?

Cantbehrit

[/B]
You know, I sort of expected an answer to this question by Departure.... The writers sort of made a big deal with Liz saying, "It means, 'I have miles to go before I sleep' "

Unless someone wants to offer some insight on this line in correlation to the binary code signature - I have no ideas.

So with that said I've said this a few times now I really like the idea of the baby being Kyle or Alex's..(I don't like it) but it is making sense.

The thing about the Alex thing that kind of bother's me though is - will the writer's go there? I mean assuming she did get Alex to sleep with her that would be like rape & then she kills him...that might me a little harsh.

With Kyle - it would be the same except that she didn't kill him and atleast the poor child would have a father...

[/B]

cantbehrit: ITA that nothing could ever seem right between Max and Liz if the baby is his. Tess will forever come between them, and she would have suceeded in putting a wedge between them for a life time. I just can't bring myself to believe that Max was not mindwarped. As for the Tex, even if he gave into it willingly, (had to go along with Zero and use this little guy) in the end some amount of warping lead him to do the dirty deed.

As for Kyle being raped? I don't think Tess would have found warping Kyle necessary. I think he would have been more then willing to have sex with Tess with out her mind games. Of the three I think Kyle would be the only one that could be the father and not be frowned upon by the audience. Of course Katims does like to see us frown, I think it's anyones guess what he will pull out of his hat next season.

Evid

also, a number of people speculated a while ago that two hybrids could not be fertile, that one hybrid would have to "mate" with a non-hybrid to be fertile (think horses, donkeys, etc). while i realize the writers are not at all concered with the reality of natural laws, making alex the baby's father would dig JK and the writers out of a number of holes.

now for something completely different...
i haven't had the time but i've thought that it might give us some insight into JK's mind to look at the first 4 or 5 episodes of S2 with the departure in mind becuase originally he thought he had only 13 episodes to work with this season. i think he did have some aspects of the final episodes in mind from the beginning of the season, what can we connect from the very beginning now that we know how he ended it?

finally, just becuase its been bothering me, they had rath say that space travel took a very long time, and yet they sent tess in a ship to have a baby in less than a month and she can reach the atmosphere of the homeplanet by then? no way, maybe, and i doubt it, they do intend to not have her leave earth since they themselves set up the rules by which that would be impossible.

i'm hopeful for S3, especially since UPN seems to want to promote it.

-fallen

cantbehrit cute avatar!

1) I don't think Kyle is the father of the baby. From what I remember in the prom episode, Kyle was being harassed by a friend to tell him what Tess was like as a lover. Didn't Kyle say that he had NOT slept with her? I can't find a transcript of this episode. Does anyone have a record of that conversation? Maybe I'll have to check my tape later. I do find the Alex-is-the-father theory interesting and plausible.

2) One thing keeps sticking in my mind about the whole idea of alien pregnancy. Back at the end of Season 1, when Isabel thought she may be pregnant, Tess showed them the Destiny Book. When the pages of the DB were being flipped, we saw the four faces of the podsquad. But there were ALSO pictures of people pregnant! I noticed this because of Isabel at that time. A screencap of this now could be very revealing. Perhaps pregnancy is part of the equation for them to return home.

3) Speaking of the DB, has anyone Grace Kelled (is that the right term?) the images of the translation and recorded what the book said in English? I tried to view it on my screen and could only read the first few sentences. It is what Alex was saying in Kyle's early visions:

Alex: (In Kyle's vision): You are the royal four. You are created from the genetic materials of your alien predecessors and human subjects...
Tess: Kyle!
Alex (in Kyle's vision): You are given human forms so you can...

I remember it also said something about the granolith.

3) Earlier I posted my thoughts about Ava and Tess being switched before hatching. I found a thread that already existed about exactly that topic: http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/007377.html
But I don't think it really says that much more that what was already mentioned on this thread.

4) What does "TPTB" stand for? I know it refers to the writers and people who make creative decisions about the show, but I can't figure out the acronym.

5) I was thinking about EOTW this morning and "Don't You Want Me" by Human League came on the radio. This song fits very well for Max and Liz just after EOTW--just replace 5 years w/ 1 and "a cocktail bar" with Crashdown Cafe. (I got the lyrics from "Lyrics World.")

DON'T YOU WANT ME Human League - words by Philip Oakey - music by Jo Callis, Philip Oakey and Philip Adrian Wright - from the 1981 album "Dare!"

You were workin' as a waitress in a cocktail bar
When I met you I picked you out, I shook you up and turned you around
Turned you into someone new
Now five years later on you've got the world at your feet
Success has been so easy for you
But don't forget it's me who put you where you are now
And I can put you back down too

Don't - don't you want me
You know I can't believe it when I hear that you won't see me
Don't - don't you want me
You know I don't believe you when you say that you don't need me
It's much too late to find, you think you've changed your mind
You'd better change it back or we will both be sorry

Don't you want me baby
Don't you want me - Oh-oh-oh-oh
Don't you want me baby
Don't you want me - Oh-oh-oh-oh

I was working as a waitress in a cocktail bar
That much is true
But even then I knew I'd find a much better place
Either with or without you
The five years we have had have been such good times
I still love you
But now I think it's time I live my life on my own
I guess it's just what I must do

Don't - don't you want me
You know I can't believe it when I hear that you won't see me
Don't - don't you want me
You know I don't believe you when you say that you don't need me
It's much too late to find, you think you've changed your mind
You'd better change it back or we will both be sorry

Don't you want me baby
Don't you want me - Oh-oh-oh-oh
Don't you want me baby Don't you want me - Oh-oh-oh-oh

repeat last four lines 3 or 4 times to fade)

-Dreamer At Heart

The folks over at the CHADs thread thought the Alex-as-father idea was too much like rape and kind of discrespectful of the dead (I hope no one minds my sharing it there--I gave the whole RBI credit--hope that covers it! ). I was surprised at their reaction, considering they liked Tess so much, and considering that she is an attractive female, but I now tend to agree with Evid: quote:...Of the three I think Kyle would be the only one that could be the father and not be frowned upon by the audience. ... Maybe the actual baby is Kyle's, but Max's royalness got transferred during Tex? Oh, and recall Max said the "final culmination" was different. So maybe no sp**m were released? Maybe that's why there was no little Rath running around in the sewers?

Okay, about the binary code, listen up, little girls (as Rath would put it), during the scene at the computer lab in Las Cruces, as the computer program is loading, we see Alex's binary code go whizzing by repeatedly. If he spent 2 months with that program, it could have become like a signature for him.
Hmmm... remember in BB when Alex asks Liz what she's going to want from him next, a kidney? Well, maybe Tess needed to borrow a brain because the Super Computer wasn't super enough on its own. Creepy, but that would explain "what [she] did to him."

Oh, and Mel, so I guess the computer guy's comment about the alien symbols looking Native American must have a different signifigance. You know I could easily spin several possibilities, but not now.

And I am now wondering which meaning of "worthy" RD was using. Did he question Max's worthiness on the basis of his character, or his pedigree, or his lack of mindwarpednes, or...?

DreameratHeart TPTB = The Powers That Be. I went through the same thing you just did with it: figuring out the meaning from its use, but finally having to ask.
And I love that song! The female vocalist's response is so refreshingingly strong.

I agree that the binary code could just be some garbage that Alex's brain spat out as it was trying to process everything--especially after spending so much time on a supercomputer.

But I remember thinking the computer image in Las Cruces was just a rip-off of the title frames of "The Matrix."

-----

Also, about River Dog's comment to Liz: This is the transcript from Crashdown--

MAX: So this has some type of meaning. It's some kind of message for us. Maybe it's some type of warning. I don't know.

RIVER DOG: It's time for you to leave.

MAX: Can we come again?

(River Dog shakes his head)

RIVER DOG: I've completed my promise. There's nothing more I can tell you, nothing more you can learn.

(As Max and Liz turn to leave, River Dog reaches out and grabs Liz's hand)

RIVER DOG: Wait, wait. You're not one of them.

MAX: Liz?

RIVER DOG: Make sure he deserves your trust.

MAX: Let's go.

(Scene fades out as Max and Liz walk out of the cave hand in hand)

I think this supports the theory that Liz is human (or changed), not alien.

-Dreamer At Heart

You're also right that Kivar is supposedly on Antar. Only reason I hesitated on that one is because of the Howie scene at the conclusion of Departure. That guy who said "It has begun." had on a seatbelt and a steering wheel in his hands so I assumed he was here. But I was wrong to assume he's Kivar. Heck, he could be Larek's Driver's Ed. instructor for all I know.

Anyway, the clincher is that Tess and Kyle ARE wearing the same clothes in the scene where Alex dies and then later at the Crashdown. Clearly Tess had help as many have speculated. Last seen, she drove off with Alex in the back of his car. I remember someone said Rath probably propelled his vehicle into the path of the truck. Tess doesn't have that power.

Anyway, the good news for me is that all the times I've posted things and no one has responded, (the Granolith lights around Liz, the EOTW gypsy) you were probably mulling them over, and not thinking I'm an idiot. I know that now because I just made a real idiot post and you let me know in a hurry. -HH

As for Kyle being raped? I don't think Tess would have found warping Kyle necessary. I think he would have been more then willing to have sex with Tess with out her mind games. Of the three I think Kyle would be the only one that could be the father and not be frowned upon by the audience. Of course Katims does like to see us frown, I think it's anyones guess what he will pull out of his hat next season.

Evid

[/B]

See I agree with you Evid..and you do understand when I say "rape" though? Because like you said, it's like Kyle once liked her in that way. See its a touchy word that I used but I was really going for it with the Alex scenerio. I really don't think the audience could handle knowing that Tess would do that to Alex & then kill him. Alex was in love with Isabel (and although it would fit with betrayal, it wouldn't fit with the viewers) he was never into Tess in "that" way and I just think that if the baby is Kyle's it'll be easier to stomach.

Also, Kyle is alive. He could get help with the fact that Tess betrayed him. But poor Alex...it just seems more wrong..if it could be.

I'm glad you agree!

Cantbehrit

Okay, obviously sleeptyping here.

But I think they shot CYN first, because Colin needed to get done with his screen stuff right away. ***THEN*** they decided they needed a symbol that would reveal the mindwarping. They went back over CYN and decided that the guitar drumming would be it.

I do understand why people would consider the "Alex is the father of Tess' baby = rape (more or less)"; I can also understand why Tess supporters might also prefer *not* to consider this (because in this concept it would obviously make Tess a rapist, uhm, more or less).

My belief in this theory doesn't really linger so much on the actual *act* of sex, but what Tess having Alex's baby would mean in "balance". Tess killed Alex... but then by having his child, she (inadvertantly) has *fixed* the balance. Or if we're going to quote Kyle... "The circle of life." What Tess has taken away, she replaces - keeping the circle of life flowing. I guess I'm weighing out what would be worse.... Tess remembered as a murderer or Tess tricking Alex into having sex with her, but their son sort of "replacing" what was lost (not that Alex can really be replaced, but his child would be fairly close imo).

However, I do think the "Kyle is the father" theories are also *very* feasible. I was wondering, if Max truly *is not* the father of Tess' baby. Whatever way they discover this... they review the security footage from the Observatory that night and realize the sex never happened? Tess admits it didn't happen? Or the sex was real but the baby just isn't Max's?

I was thinking - more for dramatic purposes (or simply push the story along) - Kyle could start remembering or speculating that *he* could possibly be the father of Tess' baby (Kyle starts remembering *things* he's done with Tess - he doesn't know what to think about them at all due to his lingering "brotherly" feelings and/or general disgust at Tess for her wrongdoings). Kyle (and everyone else) begin to believe / come to the conclusion that the baby Tess was pregnant with is probably Kyle's? No one is 100% certain because the *one* person that can confirm it isn't there (Tess). Kyle is nevertheless devastated and has now replaced Max's role as the "worried teen father" (I'd actually love to see Nick Wechsler's range on this subject matter as well, I'm sure he'd do a stellar job - not a dry eye in the Ros audience). THIS is what inspires them to *save* the baby possibly (Max understanding Kyle's anguish completely - Max who was in that exact same position not so long ago) and possibly travel to Antar to do it? Once there (Season 3 Finale?).... it's revealed somehow that the baby IS NOT Kyle's, but it's Alex's (Tess slept with both Kyle and Alex in a desperate attempt to get pregnant? Kyle was willing but so was Alex to some extent - he believed he was sleeping with Leanna? Once again, the rape issue could be a problem - it would depend on how they exactly decide to reveal this info I suppose). More drama/action ensues, but eventually they all get back to Roswell with Alex's son in tow, but probably *without* Tess. I'm assuming Ava has probably resurfaced in story long before all this occurs, so no harm to the "balance". Karma has finally descended on Tess, she dies on Antar [trying to help the podsters I'd like to think, hence her death is more noble]? Where she wanted to be (die?) anyway?

This all would give Isabel plenty of emotional scenes as well - realizing the baby is a piece of Alex that's still with her. Alex is dead, but his son lives. Tess - although she tricked Alex into sleeping with her AND killed him - she still dies honorably by paying for her *sins* with her own life (in the process of trying to help save the podsters and her son)?

Season 3 ends: Max/Liz, Michael/Maria, Isabel (/ Sean?), Kyle/Ava and Alex/Tess's son (and whoever else has joined the Scooby Gang - Michael worshipping Skins?). Alex's son a representation of their futures (hybrid/human baby - hybrid/human children of the above pairings will be the heirs of destiny)?

Melodious

This would also basically eliminate the "teen parents" scenario. Since the baby's parents are both dead (Alex/Tess), the child has no one now (but his "extended" family). All the podsters/humans will love the baby, of course, but perhaps Kyle - who developed a deep affection for the child even before meeting him - will be the closest thing to a *father figure* the baby will have, as opposed to Max. Mostly because Kyle was one of the only ones, besides Sheriff Valenti, that *did* genuinely care for Tess once (Tess was a thorn in Max's side - I can't see him forming a very strong connection to her son for this reason even if he did believe it was his for a [brief?] while). K is also possibly Ava's love interest by the end of S3? Ava is *another Tess* (basically) and the only living alien genetic tie to the baby.

Perhaps Jim and Amy (who might have gotten married at some point in Season 3, Amy who has also been included in the ever-burgeoning "I know an alien club" sometime in S3?) adopt the baby? Amy/Jim are the one adult couple in Roswell fully aware of the *care* (discretion) this particular baby needs? Kyle and Ava - still living with Amy and Jim - can both be close to the baby this way (as well as everyone else).

This would all depend of course on how much Alex's family "knows" about the situation. It wouldn't surprise me if the Ros writers take them out of the equation all together and leave the *canon* characters the ones responsible for Alex's son (if it were the case). For example, due to the grief of losing their son, the Whitmans decide to leave Roswell? This would be mentioned once (by Maria or Liz) early in the season but then of course (in the fashion of Ros) never mentioned again and the Whitman chapter closes and they don't become a factor in the baby's life. Even though it is Alex's baby - no one knows that but the Scooby Gang.

Melodious

...The Theory about Alex-is-the-baby's-father-and-Kyle-is-not makes sense to me.
Why do I think so?
...Second.
(If we accepte that the Royal 4 are hybrids and would have to mate with humans)
Alex was in LCU and decoded the DB, which told that hybrids must mate with humans.
Tess reads this and realizes she has only one way get pregnant...
She sleeps with Alex and makes him think he has a relationship with Leanna(in reality is Tess).
Because Alex loves Iz, Tess must MW Alex into thinking this is over now and block his memories of his deep feelings for Is.
When Alex is talking with Iz, he starts tapping - since she is his trigger to the memory.

I think Tess replaces the DB translation because if Nicolas/Lonnie know she can't mate with Max and can't have his baby - she loses her place in plan...

...[Then] she tells Max that the baby is dying and there is no time.
She, baby and R4 must go home...

Nicolas,Lonnie and Rath....get left behind on Earth with nothing and she get's all in Antar.Maybe the deal Nasedo made with Kvar was "behind the backs" of the Dupes.

Of course it also seems like she was in a hurry because we were at the end of Season 2, and if she stayed too long the plot would have gotten more complicated, ***and*** the writers would have had to have the podsters get more information from her.

But I do like the nice plot twist that the DB reveals that they have to mate with humans. Maybe Kvar knew this and told Nasedo otherwise to doublecross him. It would fit with Michael's line from SH about "maybe that's how we find out about ourselves--by connecting with humans."

Vihmakass, I cannot figure out what this word is supposed to be: "rabatud"
Maybe "raptured" ?

Please more

ISABEL: That would mean each of us has this information in some part of us we're just not not conscious of.

MICHAEL: Or she's getting messages from somewhere or someone else.

ISABEL: Nasedo?

MICHAEL: I don't know. I mean, why did she see the crash, the soldiers? Maybe it was all planned this way...that this is how we'd find out who we really are...by connecting with humans.

ISABEL: Connecting?

MICHAEL: The more they connect, the more we find out.

The question then would be who the father is, and Kyle begins to think it might be him. This is where I differ from you, Melodius. I think in S3 we'll start to see Kyle and Isabel getting closer. So if and when they do find out it's Alex's baby, Isabel and Kyle will be the ones who feel closest to him. Though, honestly I can't imagine that any of the club would care that Tess was his mother. They would be able to try to hate him because of his mother, but then they would say, "Oh look he has Alex's eyes" and be completely in love with him again.

Anyway, eventually, the only person who could tell them would be Tess. I don't know if I'd like to see them going to Antar, but they have to find out somehow. Tess, who has been badly mistreated by Khivar and co., tells them that the father is Alex. At about this point I imagine an amazing scene between Isabel and Tess. Isabel, who has been trying to get over his death has just been shocked by this very deeply. I can see her yelling, "My god, you - you raped him!" and Tess, who has been swimming in second thoughts since the moment she arrived on Antar doing, saying, feeling something drastic.

While the idea that Alex is the baby's father does mean that Tess is even more evil, I agree that it would make a bittersweet circle if Tess, who killed him, gave birth to his son. But honestly, Tess warping Alex into having sex with her, is definitely something she'd do. I mean, we're all pretty much agreed that if Max did have sex with her it was only because she warped him. And remember what she did to Max when she first came. There's not much of a leap between them.

Anyway, I'm imagining the scene where everyone finds out that the baby is Alex's. The different reactions of the different characters ... and well, I have high opinions of the actors on this show so I think they would do it very well. I also think that Jim would raise the baby.

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

Not only fits into Michael's line, but honestly, it's what fits into Roswell as a whole. The human/alien dynamic. Max having a baby with Tess just goes against this concept. It's one thing for Max to *explore* his alien side (I grudgingly accept that he seemingly had to do this *with* Tess)... but having a baby with Tess, another alien? That kind of throws the story way off balance, does it not? An alien/alien baby seems to go far beyond what I believe is the basis of Roswell's entire storyline.

I'm very intrigued by the possibility that the Destiny Book could say that hybrids are destined (and can only) "mate" with humans. It would certainly be a valid reason - or one of them - why the Royals were recreated as hybrids and sent to Earth (but then again, why humans?). As you stated shapeshifter, IF Kivar KNEW this, then the "plan" that was made with Nasedo could have definitely been a double cross. The plan pushing Max (and the rest of the hybrids) to do something he was (they were) NEVER intended to do and prevents him/them from what he/they're SUPPOSED to do.

This Kivar doublecross would prevent Max from ever inadvertantly producing an ACTUAL heir (an eventual Max/Liz baby) - if hybrids are possibly physically incompatible with each other. Max sleeps with Tess (an alien), breaks Liz's heart, pushing Liz (his *chosen* human mate and the only person Max would ever consider "mating" with?) away... hence Max's chance on fulfilling the Destiny stated in the Destiny Book is grossly endangered because he's now with an alien who can't give him an heir while the woman whose supposed to be the mother of his children someday is *barely* a part of his life. All because Kivar is too damn clever for his own good!!

Now Tess could possibly still be just as mindwarped/deceived as everyone else (hence she believes she's actually pregnant, when in actuality, the baby is a mindwarp - by Niko? Kivar?). Or she might not be. Tess is only going through with Nasedo's plan after all and the (possible) fact of her inability to produce Max's heir might have been revealed to her via Alex translating the DB (and only then). Tess possibly believes Kivar DOES NOT know about hybrids inability to procreate with each other since she believes he doesn't know what's in the DB or anything about hybrids (but he does)? She doesn't want to endanger her chance to go home.... HENCE she NEEDS to get pregnant BY A HUMAN (enter Alex and/or Kyle) then try and pass it off as Max's son. Hoping that since she delivered at least Max, Isabel and the Granilith to Kivar - followed his orders - Kiv would let her live (even if he does figure out she's not pregnant with Max's kid - just as long as Max dies and there's NO possibility of a viable Royal successor, then T believes Kiv will be merciful/reasonable. Let her live on Antar with her son)?

Unfortunately, if this Nasedo plan was all a doublecross, obviously Kivar would ALREADY know that if Tess is indeed pregnant... the baby's father IS NOT a hybrid. However, evenso, Kivar can still use Max's ignorance (unless Max learns the truth that is) to his advantage. He can use the baby (Kyle's or Alex's son) to lure Max into a trap. Max might even KNOW he's walking into a trap... but what can he do? Nada, it's his SON and he has to save him. If this spec holds any water, it would probably be LIZ who gets Max out of another dangerous situation ONCE AGAIN and figures out the baby isn't Max's ... that's just what Liz does. Saves Max's a$$.

Although this is still rather a conundrum, because even if the baby ISN'T Max's, they're still going to want to save it. Especially if Kyle believes he might be the father - Kyle is going to want to save his son and usurp Max's role as the "worried teen daddy". If the baby is Alex's - they're still going to want to save it (they can't let an innocent child die when they can do something to stop it)... IF they can do anything to stop it. The best way I can see this getting resolved is if Tess has a change of heart or has *immense* regrets for what she's done - especially after possibly realizing Kivar ALWAYS knew she couldn't bear Max's heir and the whole Nasedo plan was a trap for ALL the Royals. Tess is now living as a fugitive with Mom and others? She's living to help her baby survive. With Mom's help, she sends the baby to Earth with a full confession - to save the baby and clear her conscience (explains to the remaining podsters the baby CAN survive on Earth because his father is human [and reveals who the father is], and it's obviously NOT Max).

Melodious

The child of Tess and Alex would also symbolize that the future of the aliens is with the humans, and that somehow it's okay. This child, whose circumstances of birth so so awful, but symbolizes so much hope.

When Michael and Isabel talk about how they were meant to connect to humans, and its through humans that they can learn, grow, etc. it only makes me like this theory more.

Also, in Kyle's memory, doesn't Alex say "You were given human shape so that..." or something of the sort? They were given human shape so what? Maybe it's something mundane like "so that you would fit in" but the podsters are mostly human! Even their powers are human! So their shape isn't the only part that's human - why did their makers do that?

Oh, and HH~
I didn't seem to sound mean or something. I just meant to refute, and kind of play devil's advocate. I believe that the more we discuss different possiblities, the closer we come to the truth!

Thanks for everyone about the binary code. I thought there was more to it than what was on the comp at LC and I was hoping we'd see what it was definitely, but I'm kind of satisfied now.

And Tas~
Thanks for Amy's trigger. I didn't notice that what she was holding was a "George W is an alien" shirt. Perhaps she didn't remember it permanently because she was interrupted by Maria in the middle of it.

Later!

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

.......fairytales...

quote:Originally posted by zeroAutumn:
The child of Tess and Alex would also symbolize that the future of the aliens is with the humans, and that somehow it's okay. This child, whose circumstances of birth so so awful, but symbolizes so much hope.

We really are on the same wavelength I think zA, I posted something similar to the above in the last part of one of my previous posts. The child being a symbol of the future and particularly that of the human/hybrid couples future in Roswell. How important it is and will be to retain togetherness amongst the aliens/humans. You elaborated on the contrast of the child that stemmed from something VERY negative, but in actuality, turned out to be a representation of something completely positive. I love it! Using a Dreamer example: Max CAN (and will) have a future and family with Liz one day, it's possible. THIS is what was "meant to be" (echoing Tess' words from 4S). Something that has ALWAYS been in debate before is now no longer an issue with the discovery of who the child is - or who his parents are. They'll still have struggles of course, but through love and being together - they're all stronger people and a promise of a more united kingdom?

If this is how Season 3 goes, I'd be very muchso satisfied.

Melodious

VenusStar~
That's a very interesting theory! What if she didn't kill them at all? Hmm....

Short on time, gotta go!

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

Hey, Vihmakass! Long time, no see!
You are making good sense. I agree that Tess covered Kyle's affection for her as a girlfriend, with a mindwarp of him as her brother.

But: does Kivar know what's in the Destiny Book? Does he know if the hybrids can breed together? If he knows they can't, and Tess comes to him saying she is pregnant with Max's child, she would be in trouble!

What is more, my wife says so too, and she is never wrong.

Wow. This is such an impressive thread. I haven't really looked into Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology until recently, and there really is a lot to ponder here. All of the symbols that I've thought to be "long forgotten" now seem to come back and register in my mind as very important items. So many storylines of episodes revolve around very small aspects of preceeding episodes, mainly enhancing the element of surprise. But I never really found a place to see if the audience can guess what is going to happen in future episodes based on these minor objects. This is the first area that I've found that delves deeply into these possibilities, and I've found everything said to be extremely intriguing.

And VenusStar - LONG LIVE NEWBIES lol. What is this, like, my fifth post? Wow, I'm a winner lol. Well, this is gonna be a long one, so that should count for something, right?

Now, I haven't had time to read all of the posts within this thread, and I've just skimmed over some. Please tell me once I start repeating other peoples' ideas, and I'll give credit to the owners . Wouldn't want to be stealing other peoples' thoughts (or giving people thoughts that aren't there.... Sorry. Still holding a huge grudge with Tess.)

Everybody has made an infinite number of references to the Destiny Book. Some people believe what it says to be truth, or an extremely intricate plan devised by Khivar to make sure his "deal" works (and having the book passed to Nasedo and then given to Tess to get to the rest of the Pod Squad.) Other people think that the DB is a much smaller scale deceit, and that it is just a figment of Tess' imagination, so to speak. So far nobody really knows where the book originates from, who wrote it, what its purpose was to the Pod Squad, how old it is, etc. There are many different possibilities to explain its existence. I'm not sure if any of the mentioned ideas are true, or if one is better than another, or if there is any solid proof that we can use as a guide to the DB's origins. But there's always room for speculation. I'm pretty sure that the book is beyond Tess. Which I'll be thinking about tonight and post sometime later, because now more thoughts just crossed my mind that are far off my own topic...

Have there been any clues to what Tess was like on Antar, in her past life? We know that Vilandra betrayed her people and family, and was pretty much responsible for the deaths of the Royal Four. We know that Zan was the leader, and that "he made bad decisions" (according to Niko) and that he tried so hard to make a better world for his people, but did not regard the fact that change takes time (according to Larek.) We pretty much only know that Rath was Zan's second in command. There must be more to him than that (which we should come to learn in S3) considering how each of the other characters' past lives have been revealed at least a little. But we don't know anything for sure about Tess' previous life. She is just the supposed "young bride," which is also widely disputed as truth. In "Surprise," recall that Whitaker told Isabel that she only took Tess because she thought she was her, Vilandra. Could this show that Whitaker, a Skin, sensed similar traits between Vilandra's reincarnated soul and Ava's? Does this mean that Ava and Vilandra shared traitor tendencies on their home planet? Or even, is Tess Vilandra? - Because she seems to be the traitor of the Pod Squad. This also shows in the Dupe version of the Royal Four. They were the "defects." Maybe, what made them "defected" was that their essences created the opposite effects that they should have. In reality, Zan, Rath, and Vilandra are meant to be the dependable ones of the group, and Ava the traitor. In the Dupe version, Zan, Rath, and Lonnie each were not loyal to each other in any way, while Ava was, making her just as much a traitor to her group. I mean, for example, even if there is one righteous person in a group of criminals, that person is still a traitor to the group. Traitor, in that context, just isn't a negative term. (Just to tell you all now, I don't usually reach a point with all of this rambling. I'm just bringing up different options and trying to widen people's perspectives. Feel free to use any of what I say as jumping off points to come to a tangible conclusion, 'cause I jump around too much to actually follow through on anything .)

Speaking of Ava, I remember her saying that she loved Zan, but he never returned her love. It was like he was looking for something, waiting for someone else to come into his life. That would be - Zan's equivalent of Liz. She fits in to the alien's lives once again. If Zan (the Dupe) was searching for someone other than Ava (the Dupe,) and Max was searching for someone other then Tess (even before he knew of her existence,) that means that the actual Zan had this within his DNA. There was a part of him that always knew he didn't belong with his (AHEM) "destiny." There's nothing that says Zan hadn't found his true love on Antar, all I can see is that he definitly knew that there was someone else at all times. This would mean that if Max were to have to follow his destiny, he'd be following Zan's destiny, and Zan's DNA shows that he was looking for someone else to be with. This means that inevitably Max must be with Liz in order to fulfill his real, true destiny. He cannot reach his full potential as leader without Liz by his side. This theory is further implemented by the fact that Zan was with Ava, who was not his destiny, and Zan did not reach his full potential as king with her, considering how he fell as a ruler and brought his kingdom down with him. If he had been with his real equivalent of Liz on Antar, then perhaps the entire planet would have been saved (which also sort of shows Liz's need to prevent "the end of the world" from happening... because it is in her DNA as Max's soulmate to help him with international problems, rather than her own. Liz's equivalent on Antar would have had the same feelings, and would have helped Zan in saving the kingdom.)

Does any of this make any sense? It all kind of does in my head, but when I write it down, it just seems like I'm rambling. Talk to you guys later, for sure! I'm looking forward to further dissection of the matter! Bye for now!

- Ex Astra ~ "From the Stars"

I really like your ideas regarding the dupes. I think they are going to be one of the critical elements in figuring everything out. I've been thinking about a theory that links Destiny, TEOTW, MITC, and Departure, but it still feels all mixed up in my mind. Your thoughts are giving me knew ideas.

Also, we do know a little more about Rath from Courteney. Remember, she was his "follower" and she said there was a whole group of "people" who felt Rath/Michael should be the true leader.

-Dreamer At Heart (and fellow "Fan in Training")

Mel, if the writers don't kidnap us long enough to MR our ideas (and then, of course, MW us of the experience), I will be very surprised. Especially: quote:Originally posted by Melodious1:
...However, even so, Kivar can still use Max's ignorance (unless Max learns the truth that is) to his advantage. He can use the baby (Kyle's or Alex's son) to lure Max into a trap. Max might even KNOW he's walking into a trap... but what can he do? Nada, it's his SON and he has to save him. If this spec holds any water, it would probably be LIZ who gets Max out of another dangerous situation ONCE AGAIN and figures out the baby isn't Max's ... that's just what Liz does. Saves Max's a$$...[/B]And if Max saves Kyle's son, that would (one would think ) finally heal Kyle's resentment of Max.

and Reggie, speaking as a guy, you do agree, don't you, that Tess would ***not*** have had to "rape" Alex (or Kyle)? --that simple human seduction would have been quite adequate and saved her MW powers for work on the book.

quote:Originally posted by Ex Astra:
...We know that Zan was the leader, and that "he made bad decisions" (according to Niko) and that he tried so hard to make a better world for his people, but did not regard the fact that change takes time [as Larek said]...
...Zan did not reach his full potential as king with her, considering how he fell as a ruler and brought his kingdom down with him. If he had been with his real equivalent of Liz on Antar, then perhaps the entire planet would have been saved (which also sort of shows Liz's need to prevent "the end of the world" from happening...great points, ExAstra, and we have seen how Tess was always a "yes man" to Max--maybe because she was secretly influencing his decisions. Recall how surprised she was that he lied about the granolith in NY (because Liz had warned him) and when he left the bargaining table, it was at the moment that Liz (and Is, no traitor is she!) was connecting with him to warn him.

Well then, if Liz is to be Max's guide in making decisions, then maybe TEOTW will turn out to be for the good.

Mel, zA Also great thoughts on the same subject

haniczka I've forgotten what your theory was on why the CD lights swirling around Liz look like the granolith lights; would you repost, please? Is is just to say that she's connected to the granolith, or its key/guardian?

fallen I PMd you if you're still around
~Tas

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:
Mel, if the writers don't kidnap us long enough to MR our ideas (and then, of course, MW us of the experience), I will be very surprised.

I don't know about you shapeshifter, but if the writers want to use any/all of the Liz Myth ideas/theories in season 3... MR or MWing won't be needed on me! I'll hand over *any* of my specs willingly!

Ok, call me ignorant on the spec train here and I wouldn't be surprised *at all* if this has already been brought up... but with Nemo (and his wife ) bringing up the Granilith's lights resembling the Crashdown lights (which were revolving around Liz reflected off Bob's windshield), the Granilith / whirlwind symbol possibly (definitely) being a symbol for Max and Liz and all this discussion on Max's "heir". My thoughts have been lingering on something....

So we learn in DEPARTURE that this whirlwind symbol also has a connection to the Granilith, illustrated here:

As some of y'all rather keenly pointed out, in DEP, the Crashdown lights seem to resemble the Gran lights (I'm not sure if this is the scene y'all are referring to, but this is the only screencap I could found of the Crashdown lights reflecting off Bob's windshield that encompass Liz):

This scene shortly followed by Max giving Liz the whirlwind pendant to "remember him by". The pendant is seemingly a substitute for a "ring". Max tells Liz that he always believed after he graduated he'd give Liz "his ring" [I'm assuming he doesn't mean class ring here either], but since he won't be graduating, he gives her the pendant. The pendant a substitute for an engagement ring?:

Even before DEPARTURE ever aired - this thread deemed the whirlwind symbol as an M&L symbol... could the whirlwind symbol actually represent this...?:

Max, Liz and their child? If the whirlwind symbol ALSO is a symbol signifying the Granilith... what does this mean? I've read several theories on this thread in the past that have speced that Liz herself might be the Granilith. That the actual device we saw take off in DEP was only a shell or simply insignificant to what the Granilith *really* is. However, instead of *Liz* being the Granilith... could Max, Liz *and* their child be the Granilith? The whirlwind symbol as you can see consists of two swirls circling a triangle. The swirls represent Max and Liz? The triangle represents their child? The triangle is ALSO often deemed on this thread and others as another possible symbol of the (cone-shaped / triangular) Granilith.... in this case, could Max/Liz's CHILD be the Granilith?

Or possibly the whirlwind symbol is just a representation of all hybrid/human pairings. The triangle represents the children of these pairings. The symbol itself is a representation of the connection between hybrids, humans and the product of the bond they form? I wonder if Granilith is Antarian (or some other ancient alien dialect long forgotten or simply misunderstood by the current Antarians) for "destiny"? Or the symbol itself is a sort of ancient alien hieroglyph... the Antarians don't fully understand what it means?

In MITC, Rath referred to the Granilith as a "stupid religious thing"... Lonnie's exact words were:

LONNIE: The protector told us it's like the holy grail, some piece of junk people on our planet worship for some reason. You ever heard of it?

Perhaps it's the device itself that was worshipped... but it's not the device that's the Granilith? Perhaps this cone-shaped device was only suppose to LEAD the Antarians to find the REAL Granilith (this cone-shaped object is a sort of transportation device which can go from Earth to Antar apparently)? The DB translation says it's only a one-way trip - but is that translation complete? Something tells me the possibility is open that it IS NOT. Tess might have omitted the part (as well as several other parts to her convenience, hmpf) which stated the Granilith device is indeed a transportation device which is capable for more than a one-way trip, but it also can be used as a time machine, transport to and from Antar (or wherever else you want to go)...anywhere in the universe, at any time in history? Tess omitted this part of the DB translation, because neither Tess or Kivar would want the podsters to try and return home once they got on Antar (using the device as a method of escape). Hence Tess didn't inform them the *device* can go both ways, indefinitely?

The device is supposed to be used to find the Granilith - the device is intended to find the human/hybrid children? Particularly Max and Liz's children/child? If this is so and the Granilith is "worshipped" by Antarians.... then what would it make these kids? Messiahs? This would really make those "Liz as the Virgin Mary" theories all the more interesting. Although I'd prefer *not* to think of Max as God (no offense to Max fans). Ahem.

Melodious

Thanks, DreamerAtHeart! And go us "Fans in Training!" Oh, and thanks for reminding me about what Courtney said!

And thanks also to you, shapeshifter! Great points as well... I'll be thinking about that way into the night, which will completely ruin all of my futile attempts to cure my insomnia...

Melodious, you just keep giving me more and more things to wonder about...

This really makes me think about the connection between the Granilith, Max, Liz, and the whirlwind symbol. The whirlwind symbol has always been intertwined with Max and Liz... They had it all during RD, Max and Liz found the orb with that symbol on it, Liz seeing the Whirlwind Galaxy when she kissed Max and got the flashes, Max gave the pendant to Liz in Departure, etc. But now, it's kind of strange that it is being associated with the Granilith. Since the triangle has always seemed to be a representation of the Granilith, the two lines may represent Max and Liz, or the battle on Antar and the battle on Earth, or the aliens and the humans, or many other options like these. However, it would make sense if the lines were Max and Liz. Then, the symbol would show that their lives (the lines) revolve around the Granilith (the triangle.) Which seems to always happen. For instance, Future Max and Future Liz's entire relationship all ended up at the Granilith. Everything they did and felt all resulted in one trip through the Granilith to change their relationship. So the Granilith must have something, if not everything to do with Max and Liz.

Now something else has come to my attention. We realize how this whirlwind symbol revolves around Max and Liz. What about the symbol depicted on the DB? It actually is similar to the whirlwind symbol. Both have two lines revolving around a central icon. However, while the center of the whirlwind symbol is a triangle, the center of the DB symbol is a circle. Also, the whirlwind symbol's lines are curved and bent, while the DB symbol's lines are straigter and smoother. The DB symbol seems to always come up in Max/Tess situations. (Mainly how she had him see her at the Public Library "retrieving" it, having it when she revealed that she was an alien like him, etc.) What could these similarities mean? Could it be another of Tess' mindwarps - creating a similar symbol of her "destiny" with Max, to the symbol of his real destiny, Liz? Could it be another one of her attempts to make him believe that she was his destiny, and having smoother lines representing a "better" relationship? When in actuality, the bent lines show that although Max and Liz's relationship is much harder to get through with all of the conflicts that arise between them, love will still triumph in the end. And what would the circle in the DB symbol represent?

I look forward to all of your ideas here. I'll be thinking about it, but considering it's almost two in the morning, I think it might be a good idea for me to stop now . See you all tomorr... aww man, later today. Ugh. Talk to you all later!

- Ex Astra ~ From the Stars

Wow TP, Melodious,Vihmakass,you guys amaze me you can come up with such full theories, whenever I try to go and post a full theory I always hit up against some obstacle where I can't see it through. All very good and plausible ideas.

Haniczka--I missed that catch about the lights too---but thats incredible--good catch!!!
Nemo--please tell your wife to join us and post some of her ideas too, the more the merrier!!!
Shapeshifter for some reason I could not click into that message board-geez I hope I have access to the UPN board!!! So I do not know that horse theory that the interviewer was presenting but maybe at some point we should compose a list of how many times they have used a horse or horses in their background--like I said b4 either a set decorator has a thing for horses or ultimately it has some meaning to the story not yet revealed--yes we might be way off about what it means but the theme has been there throughout the whole series.

Has anyone given any thought to these questions?
Why would this Destiny Book be encrypted into a NATIVE AMERICAN language????
For what reason was Alex chosen to decode this book, why would he have knowledge to decode this rather than an alien???
What is the meaning of the number 59 being on Sean's shirt while hugging Liz in Departure? Does this represent 1959? Who is he?

VenusStar (I guess you guys can say Venus for short)

Alex? Ah, there's a difference. Alex strikes me as the gallant type. He could have, perhaps would have, remained faithful to Isabel even with no encouragement from her; simply as a display of his devotion to her.

The whole Leanna thing could have been a MW, just to get Alex's mind off Isabel. His persistant thoughts of her could have been disturbing his (out-of-mind experience). I've got a whole (Love is stronger than...) riff going here. Does that make sense?

Originally posted by Reggie:
Kyle, no: simply "succumbing" to [her?] charms would have been quite enough. I think the "brother" thing is definitely a MW, as a diversion for the (real) affection.

Alex? Ah, there's a difference. Alex strikes me as the gallant type. He could have, perhaps would have, remained faithful to Isabel even with no encouragement from her; simply as a display of his devotion to her.

The whole Leanna thing could have been a MW, just to get Alex's mind off Isabel. His persistant thoughts of her could have been disturbing his (out-of-mind experience). I've got a whole (Love is stronger than...) riff going here. Does that make sense?

I dreamed of Roswell last night. After reading more posts, I had a lot on my mind. Rather than writing another long post, I'll just put one of my ideas out for now.

One thing that I've been wondering about ever since the Tex is Max's condom. We know that he had one with him in TEOTW even though his real intention that night was just to take Liz to a concert. And we KNOW that, in this timeline, Max did NOT use it that night. So, one would think, he still would have had it when Tess put the moves on him. Why wouldn't Max have thought to use it with Tess when he was prepared to use it with the love of his life? The only answer I can come up with is that he could NOT have been in his right mind during the Tex--i.e., he MUST have been mindwarped!

-Dreamer At Heart

I'm just stopping by to say hi.

Since coming up with my theory a few threads back, I haven't even been able to speculate about what could possibly happen on Roswell. You know it's a bad sign when a myther can't even myth...

Quick question for you guys...has anybody been able to figure out Zero's question of how Tess planned on explaning how she got the DB translation to Max? That's the one part of this plotline that's still screwing me up.

Do any of you think it's possible that the translation was never going to be given to the podsters by Tess? That it wasn't intended for *them*? That only through Liz's [unexpected] interference they got a hold of it?

It's the only thing I can think of that answers this question.

What do you guys think?

{~}:}

I'm just stopping by to say hi.

Since coming up with my theory a few threads back, I haven't even been able to speculate about what could possibly happen on Roswell. You know it's a bad sign when a myther can't even myth...

Quick question for you guys...has anybody been able to figure out [b]Zero's question of how Tess planned on explaning how she got the DB translation to Max? That's the one part of this plotline that's still screwing me up.

Do any of you think it's possible that the translation was never going to be given to the podsters by Tess? That it wasn't intended for *them*? That only through Liz's [unexpected] interference they got a hold of it?

It's the only thing I can think of that answers this question.

What do you guys think?

{~}:}

[/B]

Meta~
I'm of the mind that she would mindwarp Max into thinking that he remembered how to read it.
If she was never planning on giving it to the podsters in the first place, who would she give it to? Well, if she was actually one of the NY4 and knew it, maybe she was planning on giving it to the dupes? But considering what the deal was ... I don't know. Of course the deal could have been made up completely.
Look at me, arguing with myself ^_^

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

Do any of you think it's possible that the translation was never going to be given to the podsters by Tess? That it wasn't intended for *them*? That only through Liz's [unexpected] interference they got a hold of it?

I think that's a STRONG possibility. Tess could have been translating it for the dupes or Nickolas or for just herself. But I think she already basically knew what it contained--because I know there were pregnancy references w/ the diagrams--and she was just trying to get the translation to either figure out the details or just so she'd have it to further support her efforts to get everyone to go "home." Tess may not have known that the book was ready for reading by the time Liz found it. I bet that if Tess had been able to fully carry out her plan she would have retrieved the translation soon, read it, figured out how to drop more hint and mindwarps to enact her plan, and maybe pretend that she "meditated" or something and was suddenly able to "remember" how to read Antarian.

-Dreamer At Heart

Or possibly the whirlwind symbol is just a representation of all hybrid/human pairings. The triangle represents the children of these pairings. The symbol itself is a representation of the connection between hybrids, humans and the product of the bond they form? I wonder if Granilith is Antarian (or some other ancient alien dialect long forgotten or simply misunderstood by the current Antarians) for "destiny"? Or the symbol itself is a sort of ancient alien hieroglyph... the Antarians don't fully understand what it means?

Mel~
Once again on the same wavelength. I've alwasy thought that the two arms represented the humans and the hybrids, and that the whole symbol meant the union of them, or at least them working together. But now I really like the thought of the children of the human/hybrid pairings being important, as the granolith, or the true use of the granolith. Maybe it's not just the child of Max and Liz ... but all the children of the human/hybrid pairins. Meaning, it's important to have the child and Isabel, Michael, and Tess, too. Only when these four children are connected ...
Okay I don't quite know where I'm going with this but just consider it for a moment.

Also, if, like Rath and Lonnie said, the granolith was a religious artifact, the whirlwind symbol, being long assosiated with it would be something of a prophecy.

Okay I just had a weird thought: wouldn't it be cool if all the children of the humans and hybrids had a birthmark that looked like the whirlwind symbol somehwere on their body? Okay, I think it's time for me to go. I hope I'm making at least some sense.

later!

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

What if the Destiny Book isn't a book about their destiny at all? I started thinking of this because of the pictures of people being pregnant. What if the DB is the written contract of the deal Nacedo made with Khivar? It had instructions on how to go home, but mostly it was the details of the deal! Alex would have known about it then, so it was doubly important for Tess to keep him mindwarped. It also gives extra meaning to the line "He would have have told you what I did..."

This idea is still forming in my mind. Tell me what you think.

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

DESTINY
The Mom-o-gram states: "My son, you were the beloved leader of our people. I have sent with you your young bride. My daughter, the man you were betrothed to, and your brother's second-in-command." I believe that there are four podsters (in Roswell) and they are Max, Isabel, Michael, and Tess. However, their essences may not be as implied:

Max = Zan = King (Proof: He has the royal seal stenciled on his brain)
Michael = Rath = Sister's betrothed and Max's Second-in-command (Comment: "Wrath" (thanks VenusStar) is descriptive of Michael's powers. He has always been like a brother/brother-in-law to Max. Courteney seemed to know who he was.)
Isabel = Vilondra = Sister (Proof?: Lonnie "remembered" this. Whitaker and Nicholas recognized it.)
Tess = Ava = Bride (Proof?: Tess saying that she remembers it. Larek's "memories"--which, of course, could just be mindwarps.)

But I pose the following alternative (which I know has been hinted at before):
Isabel = Ava = Bride
Tess = Vilondra = Sister
But only in the ROSWELL 4, not the NY 4!

Proof: Isabel and Max could have been the married couple and recognized this bond when they left the pods--hence the hand-holding. I don't know many six- year-old siblings that would hold hands. Also, thinking of each other as "home" (Departure) if they had once planned to make a home together. But their human side and the way they were raised changed/influenced their feelings for each other and they are now, for all intents and purposes, brother and sister- -thereby leaving room for Liz! Also, Whitaker thought Tess might be Vilondra.

((Aside: How did Tess let herself get attacked by Whitaker? Her mindwarp is a pretty powerful weapon when she wants to use it? Was it all part of the "deal" to lead Whitaker to Isabel?))

So, Tess played along with idea that she was the "bride" since everyone assumed Isabel was the sister. Tess knew that this would be the easiest way to carry out her plan. Here is where the Alex-or-Kyle-as-father theory fits in, since Tess knew she couldn't have a baby with her brother. Maybe in Kivar's deal, Kivar could be expecting a child between Max and Isabel whereas Tess is just the one to bring it back. Tess knew she couldn't get Max and Isabel to "mate," so she arranged to have there be some baby--but then she didn't consider that the baby may not survive on earth and was forced to take everyone (including the wrong baby) back prematurely.

Besides, why would the aliens who created and sent the pods to Earth want everyone to be exactly as they were on Antar? Wouldn't they NOT want for history to repeat itself since that's what got them into trouble in the first place? (That's what has always bugged me about the "history is destined to repeat itself" stuff.)

I went more off-track than I intended. This thread is supposed to be about Liz and I'm getting there...

I think I'll just post what I have so far. Let me know what you think.

-Dreamer At Heart

VenusStar

Another thing which I find intriguing in concerns to the whirlwind symbol and it's tie to all the podsters (except for Tess)... Max, Mike and Isabel all recognized it (it's one of the first symbols we realize they ALL recognize - they all KNOW it's important somehow). Granted, Tess wasn't in the picture when the orb symbol frequented. Although it did appear in the episode JUST BEFORE Tess entered the story - SH, on the orb Max and Liz found. After Tess was introduced, the orb symbol NEVER resurfaced (not significantly anyway) until the very end of season 2, shortly before Tess' "departure". Of course, I could be wrong (y'all need to call me on it).

I think it would be rather ironic if it was this symbol alone that was the representation of the podsters *true* destiny. A symbol all the podsters (minus Tess) all recognized as very important, they just didn't know why. Hence, they might have always known on some level what their purpose on Earth really is (their conscious minds just aren't registering it)? This one symbol possibly the key to why the podsters are on Earth (or at least one of the main reasons)? As specced before, this symbol representing Max and Liz, or on a broader scale, the human/hybrid(alien) bond and/or Earth.

Tess never was associated with this symbol because she was a tangent from what this symbol represents (encouraging alien/alien mating, [rushing home to] Antar, death)? She denies this destiny, so it denies her in return? Tess never acknowledged it or was never *allowed* to acknowledge it - was this purposefully done? Why was Tess never associated with the Whirlwind symbol while all the other podsters were? Does Tess know what this symbol means and she rejects it? Hence, in a very literal way, the symbol itself ("destiny") *removes* her from Max and Liz's path (the Granilith is also associated with the whirlwind symbol [as well as M&L], the Granilith is what removes Tess from M&L's lives - barring baby factor)?

Melodious

Now I want to focus on Liz and her importance. I think the following discussion holds whether Tess=Ava or Tess=Vilondra. Either way, we know Tess had a deal, made a plan, and was about to hand them all over to the enemy.

THE END OF THE WORLD
Some have posted that Departure negates TEOTW. But TEOTW was such a critical episode, so the two must be connected. TEOTW is where Liz changes the course of events. Here's some of the dialog between Future Max and Liz (from Crashdown.com).

FUTURE MAX: The closer that you and I grew, the worse it got with Tess, and eventually she left Roswell.
LIZ: Because of me?
FUTURE MAX: Because of me, and how I treated her. And it turned out Tess was critical to our survival. The four of us - Michael, Isabel, Tess, and I...we made a complete unit. We all had different gifts, and with one of us missing, we weren't as strong, and everything fell apart.
LIZ: So, um...you want me to help you and Tess get together?
FUTURE MAX: Yes.
LIZ: Why don't you just go to Tess?
FUTURE MAX: It's you I trust. It's you I have faith in, and because it's not just about getting me close to Tess. I need you to help me fall out of love with you.

I think this is where FMax makes his mistake. Is wasn't that he and Tess were supposed to be "together," but that he needed to treat Tess differently so that she wouldn't leave. This does not mean he and Liz CAN'T be together! FMax may have been wrong about how events needed to be changed, but he was right that something had to be different than in his timeline. And his and Liz's actions in TEOTW still make that critical change take place. The question is: What exactly is that critical change since we know that Tess leaves anyway?

My theory is that Liz pushing Max away (for a while) allows for the Roswell 4 to learn about Ava and to learn the true reason why Tess leaves. Here's how:

MAX IN THE CITY
If Future Max never came, Max and Liz would have "cemented" their relationship and Liz would not have known about the power and importance of the granolith. When the Dupes showed up in Roswell they may still have been able to trick Max into coming with them, but Max probably would have brought Liz with him rather than Tess. So, Ava would have returned to New York with them since they would need the Royal FOUR and Tess wouldn't be an extra throwing off the "balance." Ava may also have agreed to return to NY because she would have felt safer with Liz there. Even though Liz and Ava would've been together in NY, I don't think they would have bonded due to the presence and influence of Lonnie and Rath. Therefore, if Liz and Max had "cemented" their relationship, we may never have learned from Ava that Liz had changed and we may not have grown to like Ava as an alternative to Tess.

Also, if TEOTW never happened, Nicholas may have been able to convince Max to give up the granolith since Liz would not have known it's significance. Something else comes to mind here. Nicholas knew that there were two sets of pods, yet he goes to the NY4 for the summit. He also knew that the granolith was with the Rowell 4, yet he asks the NY4 to represent Antar. Why? Here's what I think:

He must have known that his only chance to get the granolith was to split up the Roswell Royal Four. He needed to use the NY4--who were pretty corrupt--to help him. He tricked the NY4 into believing that he thought they were the Royal Four (in "Meet the Dupes"--RATH: We're the ones they found. They don't know that there's 2 sets.) and used them to get to Max. Maybe Nicholas even gave Lonnie and Rath the idea to kill Zan. I find it interesting that both Max and Zan instinctively said "No" to the summit right away. I wish we had had a chance to get to know Zan better. He may have given us more insight into Max's character.

((Aside: We know that there is something different about the dupes--whether the essence to human DNA ratio was different, or the environment of growing up in the sewers, or whatever. But I am curious as to why their arrangement of pods (all four lined up in a row--yes, there are four (some people have questioned that, I just can't remember where I read it)) is different from the Roswell's arrangement (the four-square symbol).--especially since the dupes each had tattoos of the four-square symbol.))

This leads to . . .

DEPARTURE
Back to Liz. Liz, as we know, is the key to everything. She is the reason for so many events, including, I believe, the connection to Ava. Also, in Future Max's timeline, she is the reason Tess leaves--because of Max's love for Liz. In the new timeline, Liz is also the reason that Tess is separated from the group--Liz's discovery of Tess's betrayal. But now, because of TEOTW (and thanks to Liz's strength), they all know why Tess leaves--her plan was spoiled.

So now they're on the new timeline and also have Ava to fill in for Tess so that they will have a "complete unit" and not be weakened as a group. All thanks to Liz!

I hope this makes sense. Sorry it's so long. I just had to get this all out of my head so I could try to have some peace of my own for a while.

-Dreamer At Heart

...Maybe ... all the children of the human/hybrid pairins. Meaning, it's important to have the child and Isabel, Michael, and Tess, too. Only when these four children are connected ...

Also, if, like Rath and Lonnie said, the granolith was a religious artifact, the whirlwind symbol, being long assosiated with it would be something of a prophecy.

Something that has bothered me in the past is the association of FIVE in concerns to the podsters. As we know, there are only four of them. I know one of the more popular # theories on this thread is "4 + 1", four podsters and Liz. Yet what if FIVE doesn't necessarily represent the podsters, Liz or any of the other humans, but their children? Particularly, their first born children, their heirs....

This is just an example of how it *could* work imo, I don't necessarily believe all these pairings will really happen...with the exception of M&L [of course ] and probably Mi&Ma too...

1. Tess/Alex's or Kyle's son (the baby is probably Alex's if it isn't Max's - I just get this feeling)
2. Max/Liz's child (heir to the throne - possibly the only one with any particular marking on him/her signifying he/she is Max's heir)
3. Michael/Maria's child
4. Isabel/Sean's child (No offense to Nick W. or anything [he's a very attractive guy] and I do think Kyle/Iz are kind of cute together, but KH is like a foot taller than NW. Aesthetically, I'm not sure a Kyle/Iz pairing would work on tv They'd more than likely pair KH with someone taller, hence I can see Iz and Sean happening more than Iz and Kyle. Devon is a tall guy).
5. Kyle/Ava's child (Sorry, the lingering Rebounder in me I suppose)

FIVE heirs, hence the frequency of FIVE appearing in alien devices, artifacts, symbols, etc etc. FIVE is a prophecied number (in the Destiny Book)? FIVE is often associated with aliens, five heirs, the Granilith symbol signifies these heirs (hybrid/human bond)... The five heirs are "destiny"? A PROPHECIED "destiny" encoded in the symbols of the Destiny Book (pictures of pregnant beings) tying into the Granilith (the symbol)? Encoded by an ancient alien culture possibly (or perhaps encoded/prophecied by an ancient human culture - the reasons why the Royals were sent to Earth) - which none of the current Antarians understand or only vaguely understand? Hence enter all the past references to ancient cultures, religion, etc.

quote:Okay I just had a weird thought: wouldn't it be cool if all the children of the humans and hybrids had a birthmark that looked like the whirlwind symbol somehwere on their body?

Max has the V symbol stenciled on his brain signifying he's the King.... It wouldn't surprise me if his kid[s] (or all the hybrid kids) had symbols somewhere on them as well signifying they're the heirs? This is a rather intriguing idea though. If Max IS NOT the father of Tess' baby, could this be how Kivar discovers it (if he doesn't already know)? Possibly something that needs to pass down from Max to his heir... a symbol that can only pass on to a *legitimate* heir... IS NOT in/on Tess' baby when Kivar "tests" him (just as Max was "tested" in MITC)? Proving Tess' baby is not Max's?

Could this "symbol" that needs to pass on to a legitimate heir be the whirlwind symbol? Max's heir will have the whirlwind symbol stenciled on his/her brain? I really don't know how this would work considering I always presumed the V constellation was *engineered* into Max's head. I really don't know how a symbol would just naturally appear in/on Max's heir's head. It doesn't seem very feasible. Although, far be it from me to understand alien religions, prophecies, hybrid offspring etc etc (far be it from me to understand Roswell, hmpf).

Melodious

Well, that's a well thought out theory regarding Tess=Ava or Tess=Vilondra.... I like how you use quotes to tie TEOTW, MITC, and Depature all together.

But

You are skipping the events of Harvest and WipeOut.

I felt that FM was trying to get Max to change his behavior so that Harvest and WipeOut would end differently than what happened in the original timeline. (I assume that had Tess left - the skins would have successfully harvested their crop and they would have acquired the granolith in WO.)

I am one that does think that TEOTW was a MW... Tess mindwarped Liz. Inspite of inconsistancies.... I think their are fewer CHADS under this assumption than not.

"Tess's Agenda:"
Tess spends the summer Nasedo and Liz free helping Michael with his gifts.
Nasedo returns, disappointed with Tess's inability to get Max to impregnate her.
Nasedo encounters his lover Congresswoman Whitaker (as herself a skin) and spends hours trying to explain K'var's deal. CW uninterested, heckles him about the granolith. Either Nasedo never knew himself where the granolith was, or he didn't want to tell, or he can't get to it. But Departure would ally Whitaker and Hardings if by coincidence alone.
Upon Nasedo's death, Tess realizes the deal is up to her. This is what she's refering to when she tells Max, "Nasedo tried to tell me he wouldn't always be here," in Ask Not. She uses her human side to attempt to connect with Max. (A first).
CW captures Tess. She believes the deal that Nasedo made with K'var. They talk honestly about their progression, but when she discovers that Tess has made no more progress than the Skins and that Tess doesn't know where the granolith is, CW starts beating her up. In trouble, Tess calls out to Isabel.
The End of the World: Max has made a nuisance of himself with the others because he's learning a stupid song to woo Liz by... He can't be bothered with Destiny. Tess determines that Liz could be convinced that Max needs to fulfill his destiny, she would have a better chance. But how to do this??? Easy, a mindwarp.
Tess stands close by and does the MW on Liz just before Mariachi Max appears. Everything that FM says to Liz sounds exactly like something Tess would say. Tess and only Tess refers to their abilities as "gifts". Michael, Max and Isabel always called them powers.
Tess hangs back and waits Liz to react. She believes that her plan has failed and relates her resentment of the pod squad and especially Max Evans to a sympathetic Kyle Valenti. Just then, Liz appears....
During the Steinbeck discussion between Max and Tess they look at CW office. Tess and the audience sees two shadows. I believe that Max only sees Liz's shadow... Max never asks or does anything to have us believe that he saw two people spying on him.
Tess realizes that her plan has taken a disasterous turn and refocuses all her energy into convincing Liz through FM that Liz and Max had to be apart. Tess quietly reappears at the end of the episode and touches Max. At that point, FM disappears.
With new found hope and energy, Tess acts like a close friend to Max to the hybrid chroncicles.... Meanwhile, she convinces the dupes and other K'var representatives that the return of the granolith is assured through the Nasedo deal. The Dupes/Skins deal needn't be necessary anymore and it can all be abondoned.

I forget why I started typing this post. I just also want to add that it is entirely possible that the members of the summit were aware that there where two sets of pods. Brody does end up seeing Rath and Michael together. If Brody has access to Larek's memories, I am sure that it's possible for Larek to get some of Brody's. Particularly alien related ones.

IMO, Tess is indeed AVA. But as opposed to Vilondra being the Traitor, I think it was Ava all along. So Tess = Ava, Tess = the Traitor. Not saying Vilondra didn't have a relationship with Kivar, imo, she probably did (hence there could have been quite possibly more than one traitor - an entire kingdom did fall and most likely it took several *traitors* to cause this downfall).

Nasedo possibly *knew* the young bride was (one of the) a traitor(s) in the alien life - however, he believed that the *original* Roswell young bride (dupe Ava) would NOT betray the podsters again, she was programmed too human or was simply programmed NOT to remember (or easily remember) any of the alien life (just as the rest of the Ros podsters - although the nature vs. nurture argument could probably make this a problem)? The Ros podsters were programmed this way to PREVENT them from becoming what they were in the alien life (traitors, horrible leaders, power hungry, tyrants)? Nasedo switched the Ros young bride for the NYC *more alien* bride (more resemblant to what she was before), Tess. The more alien bride also better suited the deal he made with the Skins. Ava, the Ros bride, would have been harder to corrupt or turn into a co-conspirator?

I don't think it's any coincidence Tess is the only one of the "Roswell" podsters that was able to "remember" more than any of them (not unlike the Dupes who seemingly "remember" how things were). The fact that Tess "remembered" (or claimed to remember) anything at all, made her the black sheep in the Roswell group for me the instant she admitted it (AN?).

quote:Either way, we know Tess had a deal, made a plan, and was about to hand them all over to the enemy.

I was wondering, if the young bride was *also* one of the traitors in the alien life, could it have been Ava who "taddled" on Vilondra in concerns to relationship with Kivar. Ava tells Zan of Vilondra's seedy relationship. Zan is infuriated and has his own sister executed for treason (since I feel Zan was probably a rather unscrupulous person himself in the alien life - despite how Larek describes him - I don't trust Larek either). All the while, Zan doesn't realize it's his own bride that's the true traitor. This is almost resemblant to what Tess was possibly doing between Max and Isabel towards the end of Season 2. Pulling Stepford Max's strings to be a complete a$$ to his sister (while SM is getting closer to T). Divide and conquer.

Ava probably ALSO ratted on Rath in concerns to Rath's involvement with the Rath (Michael) Worshipping Skins, or simply made Zan *very* suspicious of him. Zan now distrusts his second-in-command (and probably eventually has him killed too).... leaving the bride the only one who Zan trusted. The one who he discovers at the end was betraying him all along (as Tess attempted to do with Max, but she ultimately failed - because of Liz)? All the Royals are killed eventually, including Ava (betrayed by the Skins), by Kivar. Unfortunately, NONE of the Antarians realize the amount of treachery going on (or who is exactly responsible, although they *know* there were traitors amongst them)? They DO know that their Royals were a total poochscr**. Hence, this is why the Roswell hybrids memories are/were basically a blank slate? The podster creators attempted to start over "from scratch" more or less with the Roswell Royals... hoping their lives on Earth and the relationships they form on Earth would make them better leaders and people then they once were?

The Dupes on the other hand, as opposed to being the duplicates, were damaged along the way or simply not very well put together (the copies are never as good as the originals)? The Dupes are exactly what the podster creators tried to avoid in creating the podsters? Hybrids that are TOO MUCH like how they were in their alien lives? This could be exactly why the Dupes had their original names - Zan, Lonnie (Vilondra) and Rath (symbolism from the writers?). Ava, however, was not originally part of this group (which is why she was different than them - and also portrayed as a black sheep).

quote:My theory is that Liz pushing Max away (for a while) allows for the Roswell 4 to learn about Ava and to learn the true reason why Tess leaves.

I really enjoy your theory DAH, but as opposed to EOTW happening because they had to learn what Ava knew or why Tess left... I think EOTW partially happened because they had to FIND AVA. Dupe Ava, the original Roswell young bride. Tess left in both the EOTW timeline and in DEPARTURE, which signifies to me that she really doesn't belong, at least in the Roswell group. However, if it weren't for the events of EOTW, we would have NEVER met Ava, who I honestly feel DOES belong in the Roswell group. She's the missing piece in the fighting unit. The piece that FMax knew they needed, he just didn't realize he was referring the the WRONG piece (Tess as opposed to Ava). FMax quite possibly NEVER knew about the Dupes.

I also agree with you DAH that Future Max/Liz had it wrong that Max seemingly had to "be with" Tess. He was trying to keep a member of the unit from leaving because ALL the *original* podsters are a complete FIGHTING unit. FMax specifically states that they weren't as "strong" without her (that DOES NOT imply to me a romantic relationship is necessary between Max/Tess - I believe the romantic relationship part was pushed by an outside party and corrupted FLiz's plan, possibly Kivar, Tess or Niko from the EOTW timeline, to mess up the new timeline FMax needed to create). Tess, however, IS NOT and NEVER WAS part of the Roswell unit. She's one of the Dupes. I wouldn't be surprised at all, come Season 3, Ava comes back into this story and someone (probably Liz) discovers that it's Ava who was the original young bride all along. It's AVA they need, not Tess, never Tess. Finding Ava was ONE of the reasons for EOTW, but I don't think it was the only reason.

quote:Also, if TEOTW never happened, Nicholas may have been able to convince Max to give up the granolith since Liz would not have known it's significance.

Very good point DAH - and this once again, could all tie back into possibly Max and Liz's connection to the Granilith. Because of Liz, Max doesn't give the Granilith to Niko.

Melodious

I believe the birthmark theory. This is how K'var would know of Tess's foul play. Remember, she does not know how Max was certified. She thinks that Max took a test or something.

Hmmmm....interesting about the language of the book...I will have to ponder that one.

Alex being the one chosen to decode the book and the number 59 on Sean's shirt:

I think these two things point to the idea that the humans are more a part of the alien's destiny's then the aliens want to admit. There is still that separation between the two "groups". Maybe season 3 will answer all these questions and reveal the key role that Liz, Kyle, Valenti, Maria, Alex and Sean are meant to play in the lives of Isabel, Michael, Max, Tess and Ava......They are obviously meant to have some sort of significance in their lives, why else would the hybrids be sent to earth? The key could possibly lie with Liz...remember the connection she had with Max in the MITC episode!

Just a thought......

by linangel85. I really liked this and I thought I'd share
~Tas

Qfanny, I think I am neglecting the importance of the Skins. You're right that TEOTW could have averted the Skins finding the granolith.

For a while I thought TEOTW was a mindwarp--and you do offer a very compelling scenario--but the opening with FLiz and FMax make me think it's not. Also, why would Tess want Liz to know how important and powerful the granolith was if she was just trying to get it for herself? Why would Tess want to mindwarp Liz into thinking her life with Max was so wonderful--before the end of the world, that is?

Mel, I agree that Tess is a dupe and Ava is the real 4th for Roswell. You are awesome at filling in the details to what I'm thinking. Thanks!

-Dreamer At Heart

That's right! She couldn't mindwarp anyone to make them see *anything* either... she doesn't know what exactly is in Max's head the emissary saw. Even if Tess KNEW what was in Max's head (via Niko? T reading Max's mind [which I'm not even sure she can do]?), something else that wouldn't surprise me is if Max's HEIR is supposed to have a DIFFERENT symbol in his head and Kiv/Tester KNOW it? So even if Tess was there and warped Kivar or the "tester" to see a ghostly blue V-Constellation when they test her son... Kiv/Tester would STILL know Tess was up to something because they realize a legitimate heir will have a DIFFERENT symbol in his head? Kind of like a Royal cartouche, each Royal has a different one? Perhaps Tess' son will still have a symbol in his head, just not the right one?

Once again, I'm not sure how this would be possible. Since I believed this was engineered in Max, but who knows. Possibly alien Zan also had this symbol in his head. All the Royals have symbols in their heads? All different.

Perhaps the combo of Max and Liz form a child with a *particular* symbol/cartouche in his/her head? How much you want to bet that the symbol Kiv/Tester are looking for in the LEGITIMATE heir would be the exact same symbol in Max/Liz's eventual child? Of course, this could be my Dreamer wishful thinking clouding my judgement...again.

Melodious

-Dreamer At Heart

Edit: Oops! Double post. As a "Fan in Training," you'll have to excuse me.

One of my favorite theories from this thread that can explain this is if Antarians and Humans possibly come from ONE common ancestor. This ancestors "language" is what the DB is written in. A language both Antarians and Humans CAN understand, but would take some effort for either to translate. Which is quite possibly why the DB is an actual *book* as opposed to a hologram, recorded orb message or some other method of cool alien communication. A book: a rather archaeic form of communication for what we assume is a very technologically advanced race of beings (signifying what's inside of it is also possibly considerably old as well - kind of like an ancient text, this would strengthen all the ideas of it containing a prophecy or prophecies).

Liz is possibly a *direct* (royal?) descendant of this common ancestry? Hence, this could be why Liz is so damn important (Liz and Max union would unite these two worlds? Their child would bring a spliced ancient race back together and start anew?) This might also tie in to the DNA defect in Laurie Dupree and the other human DNA donors and their descendants. The DNA defect also has something to do with this common ancestry?

Something that I feel could support this *common ancestor* theory is Nikolas' powers. Nikolas is arguably a *full blooded* Skin, a pure alien (and one who seemingly lived amongst the FIVE planet alliance on Antar - so the other races in this alliance might arguably be similar to him). He can do "everything" the podsters can do, x1000. But the podsters powers are HUMAN powers, are they not?? So Niko's powers would (arguably) ALSO be human powers, just very powerful human powers. Humans and Antarians come from one ancestor, but the Antarians are simply much further along the evolutionary scale than humans?

Melodious

We don't know how Tess does the mindwarp, but I think what Tess does is implant a suggestion into the head of her subject. The subject then fills in the holes themselves. So all Tess had to do with tell Liz's subconscious enough details from her implanted idea of FM to get Liz to pick up the pieces afterwords. Tess can have FM say specific things to Liz, but in the end, it's Liz that has to fill in the holes of the MW. I think it was Liz that brought up the topic of the granolith first, and I am sure it was Liz that had FM explaining their lives together.

If you consider the fact that Tess knows it's important to allow her subject to have some control over the memory, it then becomes a lot more convincing.

I was watching Dep again and it struck me how they cut from the M&L pendant scene in Bob to the M&M "See me" scene. Now, we've always thought that flashes were a M/L thing--or more specifically, a Liz thing. But the arangement of the scenes here made me think of the park scene in ITLITB. I talked before about the stage directions in that scene implying that Max and Michael were switching roles in some respect--I think Nemo's wife agreed with me When watching Dep, there's a kind of feeling that what's happening between M&M is very much what should be happening between M&L. The reverse connection/flashes, and making love. And I realized today, that was the whole point. Prior to Tess messing with his head, Max was the one with the strong ties to Earth, Max was the one who thought they belonged on Earth/were human, Max was the one who loved Liz enough to let her see into his soul. Max was also the one who trusted Liz's judgement. But since OTM, those are the kinds of things we've seen Michael doing, only with Maria. Michael has been supportive, he's been loving, he trusted Maria with his inner self and made love with her. And he stayed. PLUS, he didn't stop Liz from investigating. He got dictator-ish once, and then he went back to supporting her search. All of this represents a tremendous amount of growth on Michael's part, at the same time that Max was backsliding into Stepford Max. I don't think it's a coincedence.

I've said before, elsewhere, that while I thought Tess was an interesting addition to the storyline, she wasn't necessary in terms of balance. Isabel is more or less balanced within herself; she didn't need Tess to balance her out. However, Max and Michael DO need each other to be balanced. Normally, MAX is the solid, steady, cautious half and MICHAEL is the impetuous one with bad judgement. But with Tess influencing Max's thoughts and feelings, he was becoming more like Michael. In order to re-establish the balance between them, Michael then became more like Max. I joked at one point that Michael seemed to be channeling the real Max, but what if it's not really a joke? What if Max needs not only Liz to provide him with balance, but Michael? And vice versa, Michael needs both Max and Maria? It all makes a weird kind of sense, at least to me!!

Oh--I do NOT mean to imply that Max and Michael need each other in the same way that they need Liz and Maria respectively. Not where I was going with this at all! But Liz and Maria balance each other out too, and I think the four of them make a pretty formidable group, in spite of Maria's "normal human" status. THIS is what I mean:

THAT'S how things should be!! Thoughts, anyone? Please?!
~Tas

Edit: Oops! Double post. As a "Fan in Training," you'll have to excuse me.

DAH
The Evan kids did this when they went to Florida one summer. I don't know if the show gives us an *exact* date or not, but I believe it was 3 years after they emerged from the pods, (age nine).

Please refer to my theory on maxcedo's site regarding to short-hair and long-hair Isabel for a deeper understanding.
http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/tessNmom.htm

If you have the season one episode, it's River Dog that you want to review.

I actually can no longer stand Maria. This has nothing to do with Majandra, who I believe is a talented actress. Her performance in Monsters is soo moving!

But Maria's character has been mean and sarcastic. Maybe Maria has been having a hard time excepting the unique situation she is in... But a part of me thinks she's ready to leave the pod squad behind. I do not think she loves Michael, but loves that fact that Michael loves her.

Maybe I'm too cruel.

quote:Originally posted by Tasyfa:
In spite of Maria's "normal human" status.

Well, some wonder on how Max "changed" Liz exactly, Kyle too. It was because Max formed (more inadvertantly with Kyle and not so much a real "connection", but with Liz I do think it was more intentional - he just didn't realize it) a *connection* with both of them imo when he healed them. Max deepened his connection with Liz by reversing it then continuously "connecting" with her afterwards.

How much you want to bet... after Michael letting Maria "see" him and Maria having sex with him.... Maria is also "changed"? Michael just connected with Maria in a different way than Max "connected to" / "changed" Kyle and Liz. It will result in the same inadvertant effect - changing humans. It's the actual connecting, and repeated connecting, that really changes humans?

If this is the case, the only *normal* humans in the story will be Jim and Sean (and the rest of the Roswell parents - who really don't matter because they're hardly in the story anyway). If Sean is indeed a *normal* human, they could go anywhere with him yet imo (even if he did bleed in OTM).

Melodious

How much you want to bet... after Michael letting Maria "see" him and Maria having sex with him.... Maria is also "changed"?

Melodious

Mel, before I get onto my Liz is not an alien rant, I want you to consider this possiblity within your theory. Maybe there is a correlation with age and change. You say that Sean, Jim and the parents are the only normal humans on the show. Could that have more to do with the fact they are fully grown adults? While the rest are suppose to be 16 and 17 year olds.

I was however, relieved that with Michael's explanation that Maria didn't get flashes because he didn't want her to. This fits in with the fact that Max did not allow Kyle to see him during his healing either. The Kyle/Isabel dreamwalk scenes appear to be entirely under Isabel's control. I imagine that when Liz astral projected, it was Isabel's doing more than Liz's. Although, I must admit, Liz did seem to be responsible for the astral projection part. Maybe Isabel just bridged the difference.

This means that how Kyle has changed has not really been addressed. All we know is that he is more philosophical than before. I doubt his Buddha kick lasts too much longer. They've milked that cow dry.

Because Maria saw flashes does not mean she's changed or has any significant specialnesses to the pod squad. I guess the same could be said of Liz if we only look at the flashes.

But this takes us right back to page one, day one, when Max sees Liz for the first time and they BOTH recognize each other. Max and Liz both develop crushes on one another although neither of them pursue it until the fatalistic day in the crashdown cafe. There is something special about this coincidence and I doubt very much it to be accidental. A television show that has preached so much about destiny and fate would be blind to miss this important, basic fact!!!!

Melodious: That would be interesting if Max and Tess's son turns out not to be the true heir. Khivar will be pissed.

You are right, Qfanny, no one has explained Max's love at first sight with Liz as a third grader. Except that at the end of Departure Max knows his heart was right.

Tasyfa: That picture in your last post is what many consider to be the royal 4.
Maybe they would be if Isabel turned to the dark side. Khivar will be coming for her eventually.

-Dreamer At Heart

-------
THE DESTINY BOOK

(There are six characters at the top, and I can't read the translations beneath them.)

You are the royal four. Zan the king. Ava his queen. Vilandra his sister. Rath, his counselor. You were created from the genetic material of your alien predecessors and human subjects. You were given human form so that you could live safely on the planet undetected until the time comes for your return. You have been given the granilith, a transport between this planet and Antar. You have been given communication technology which will allow you to access information from your true home. The chamber containing your incubation pods and the granilith has been hidden away from human settlement. It can only be accessed by the four of you. You have been provided with a guardian who will protect you from danger and keep you hidden from your enemies both human and Antarean.

A fixed sequence of events . . .

-------

I can't read any more than that, but some words stand out here and there.

In the Summer of 47 the leaky pod could have been one of the podsters "human DNA", therefore making one of the podsters more alien than human. Obviously.

In Meet the Dupes, Lonnie informs Max about Vilandra. She also finds out that Max is a "headcase" from Mr. Evans. Lonnie also knows there is a rift between Max and Isabelle. Lonnie plays on this to get Max to go to NYC.

In Max in the City, Lonnie tells Nickolas that she has cards to play and that she wants to go back to Antar. Lonnie says she remembers their planet and does not care what it takes to get there, including murder. Example: Zan

The question I wondered about is why would Tess need anyone to decode the DB for her? She acted as though she knew what was in it all along. Now she has to enlist Alex to help her?

Try this theory:

Lonnie was the leaky pod, which would account for her "less than human" attitude. She tries to get home by way of killing Max in NYC but fails. So she takes over Tess's body and returns home with Max. In Roswell she mindwarps Alex to decode the book. After all Lonnie has no idea what is in the book and needs to know. In the process, she gets pregnant by Rath or Nickolas. Oops! If she was the leaky pod, then this would make the baby more alien than human, which would account for why the baby is unable to survive on this planet. After all, if Max and Tess had a baby, there would not be any reason for it NOT to be able to exist on earth, the baby would be as human as Mom and Dad. In Harvest, Courtney told Maria and Michael that the earths atmosphere is "hostile to our race".
Lonnie uses the divide and conquer theory to keep everyone on edge and not aware of what is happening. In the process, Alex works so hard on the book because of Lonnie's mindwarp that he can not tell what is real and what is not. When he goes to sign his name, he signs with what comes to his mind, the binary code required for the application needed to interpret the book.
The electrical charge experiences could be due to Nickolas helping Lonnie get what she wants. In Wipeout, the humans dissappeared due to an electrical surge, that was short circuted by Maria. This is when Tess, created the fire ball that took out the Skins except for Nickolas. Also the entire episode of OTM was in reference to an electrical blackout, memories coming forward, and mind control. In BIY, Max explains his "alien sex" to Michael as a "hot electical surge". Was it Max or Nicholas? I do not think the baby belongs to Max, Alex or Kyle. I think it is Nicholas's by proxy.(Max or Kyle) This would seem to explain the baby having problems with the earths atmosphere.

Who put the alien bomb and granolith "key" by the book? Not knowing who might find it, I would say Nickolas. Lonnie would know how to disarm it. If Michael had not been there, Liz and Maria would have been dead also.

Now Lonnie is pregnant, needs to access to the granolith so she can get home. So what if Alex dies in the process? She needs Max to go with her so she will be in good graces with Nickolas and Kivar. It looks like it is working until the very last minute.

Go Liz!!!

Any thoughts?

DreamerAtHeart, Max had his Astral Protection Device in his back pocket in TEOTW ***because*** he was hoping to get that close to Liz ***and*** he cared enough about her to have one handy. Therefore, the fact that he didn't have one in ITLITB ***implies*** that he did not intend to do it (as he later tell Is) ***and*** he was not even thinking about having to protect Tess from consequences.

Qfanny, Okay, very good description of FM as Tess MW, ***but*** we still have the opening scene with FM and FL which Liz never sees, **and** the EOTW dance that Tess could never (IMNSHO) have faked. And, really, why does it have to be a MW? I think the point was that we not only shouldn't regret that we can't undo our past mistakes, but that if we could undo them, it wouldn't do any good. Kind of a tongue twister, but I think you get it.

Mel, I too have been thinking that the original Tess was the real traitor who tricked Vilondra into being one too (I think this is basically the same as what you were saying), and so Mommo sent Tess along without knowing that either Tess or Vilondra was a traitor. Later, **after** the pods and Mommogram were sent off to earth, only Vilondra's wrong doings went down in the annals of Antarian lore; Tess was never found out. **However** , the one problem with this is that Dupe Ava does not seem like a Master Mind as Tess was. So, that takes us back to Nasedo's deal and his influence on Tess.

Tasyfa, I agree, if FM was worried about having a complete set of 4, well, here it is:

DreamerAtHeart, Thanks for posting the DB words. Maybe Nasedo didn't like his role as protector and got a little greedy when tempted by Kvar? And then he in turn tempted Tess (with promises of the good life on Antar) to do her evil deeds? Maybe he even lied to her and told her it really was "Destiny" which is a pretty corny concept.

Tas, you're right. Michael has been the true right arm of his leader by filling in when it was needed. Forgive my naivity, but are we all convinced M/M did the deed? I mean we know they're much closer, but...oh never mind.

If Michael is now a supportive "right-hand-man" to Max, I predict Kyle's presence will become antagonistic - mirroring Michael's rivalry on Antar. In that final V shot, everyone is looking to Max's leadership except for Kyle. He has never been one to show reverence to Max in any way and he may feel very angry with Max for what ultimately became of Tess. He knows Tess killed Alex and mind-warped him from remembering it. But will he, in his mind, twist that so she acted out of desperation because of her obsession over Max, who Kyle believes did impregnate her? Antagonism between these two, with Kyle allying himself with Sean, could be a strong theme in S3. The tension between them could culminate with the paternity question.

zeroAutumn, no offense taken, dear! For the most part I'm in your camp.

Gracekel, thanks for the boost.

Cristalyn--A fellow "Fan in Training."
The expression "trim my lamp" comes from the following dialog between Tess and Kyle in TEOTW:

(Switch to Kyle's room in the Valenti household. Tess takes off a poster on the wall and starts using her power to wipe away part of the wall)

KYLE: I thought I told you I didn't want you doing that bewitched crap in the house.

TESS: Out of my room.

KYLE: It's my room!

TESS: You...you know what? Just...just forget it. I'm sick of this place, and I'm sick of Max Evans.

KYLE: Don't toy with me.

TESS: I never asked to be his mate. He thinks I'm just gonna wait around until he comes to terms with his destiny? Well, I'm not. He can figure it out on his own. They all can. You know, they didn't even know where the pod chamber was until I came along. I hate this life. I feel better.

KYLE: You look really great when you're pissed.

TESS: Yeah, right.

KYLE: No, I'm serious. I feel, like, all this energy coming from you right now. In order to trim the lamp of wisdom, we must attend to our bodily needs.

TESS: Let me tell you something, Buddha-boy...I got a lamp that needs some serious trimming.

(The doorbell rings. Kyle goes to answer it. It's Liz. She's wants to talk to Tess)

LIZ: Hi.

KYLE: Well, you here for a reason, or you just rushed right over 'cause you sensed I might be experiencing some actual joy?

LIZ: Oh, uh, actually, I need to talk to Tess.

TESS (to Kyle): We'll finish trimming my lamp later.

KYLE: Right. I'll keep my equipment on the ready.

Transcript from Crashdown.com

-Dreamer At Heart

The whole point of the FM as a MW theory is to explain the CHADS between what we knew about the G and what the G actually turned out being. You are right though on the whole FM and FL seen. This is the only CHAD in the Tess as a MW theory I can name at this moment... Frankly, I think it's possible that Tess was MW the audience....

As far as the wedding dance... well, don't you think it was very odd that the very song FM claimed they dance to at the dive in Phoenix came on in the final moments of their visit. I really think Liz was trying to "fill in the hole" as she new that FM was leaving with something nice.

Qfanny, Thanks for the link to the Tesselvision/Momogram info. It's interesting. Do you have any more links like that with some of the theories you all have been working on since the beginning?

Also, I've been wondering, does "CHAD" actually stand for something, or does it just mean "loose end" and comes from the mess during the election in Florida last November?

Thanks.

DreamerAt , Yes, the CHADs did arise during the election aftermath, and in Roswell World a "CHAD" is a "Continuity Hole and/or Annoying Discrepancy." The current CHAD's thread is at http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/008167.html

2 other useful acronyms from that thread that sometimes are used elsewhere are:
"ROSTWAH: Roswell Off Screen Thing We Assume Happened"
and:
"PSAWN-- stands for Still Annoying even With a Name. Formerly Planet Still Annoyingly Without a Name."

If you read the archives of the Liz/Myth thread (see the intro on page 1), you will find that we used to refer to the planet as "Twilo" after the mythological planet on an old Dick Van Dyke show. Antar was the name revealed on silverhandprint.com which is a site sanctioned by Jason Katims.

And that should tell all the newbies everything they wanted to know and more. So, welcome!

I already read the whole introduction last weekend (great airplane reading!) and it only whet my appetite for more.

As long as you're helping with acronyms....
Does IMO = In my opinion?
I can't figure out what ITA means at all.

They've never actually said "Antar" in the show, have they? I saw it in the Destiny Book translation (see my earlier post).

-Dreamer At Heart

Connection?

Or is this just the only place local to Roswell that has access to supercomputers AND state-of-the-art molecular analysis tools?

Well obviously Tess was very attracted to Kyle. He's a cute guy AND he's Liz's ex-BF. Just the fact that Liz once wanted to be with him would be enough to make Tess want to sink her claws into him I would think. Its all about that catty kind of girl rivalry thing. She wants to have all the things that Liz has and if she cant have that then she'll have the things that Liz had. As far as the baby being Kyle's I really think that is where this is going. The writers really left us a lot of clues that would lead to that. I remember in the episode where Max and Isabelle and Tess and Liz went to Copper Summitt and Tess asked Liz if Kyle was good in bed. Liz said yes and Tess got this naughty look on her face and said "noted." Which was like saying "hmmm i'll keep that in mind." I just looked up the dialogue and it went exactly like this:

TESS: So...you and Kyle.

LIZ: Yeah. Oh, Kyle...he told me that you two were, uh, getting involved.

TESS: Oh, it's ok, don't worry about it.

LIZ: I'm sorry.

TESS: About what? All you did was sleep with him. How was he, anyway?

LIZ: Oh, I, um...I...we...it was great.

TESS: Noted.

That shows us that Tess doesnt think of sex as a big deal and that she's taking note of Kyle being good at it. Geez could it be more obvious! ;-) Well thats my two cents. Bye now. Christy

Hey where is STARBOX is she vacationing or is she having trouble recovering over this mess they left us with at seasons end???????LOL!!!

Well, I hope I can get to know you guys better. I have heard (more like ) a lot about Zero, GraceKel, Starbox, etc... You are amazingly smart and seem like really nice people.

VenusStar

Cantbehrit

For all of the people who keep saying "Why would Tess have to MW them? She's beautiful, etc." Well first off..I don't buy the line "guys will be guys" thing..not for Alex at least. I don't think he would of slept with Tess or Leanna for that matter..unless he was mindwarped because it just doesn't fit Alex's character.

Now Kyle, he was attracted to Tess in a sexual way BEFORE prom...I don't think Tess needed to MW him BUT (and I think the baby is Kyle's) she could of got him to have sex with her and then ERASED it from his memory. She couldn't risk Max finding out or the others.

Then she MW Max...(I'm still clinging to that too) making him think that they had sex. That sounds like a well thought out, organized plan.

Ok, and assuming that the baby IS Alex's (I just don't think the writer's will do that) and that he WOULD of had sex with Leanna..he still wouldn't have had sex with Tess so she would of had to make him think he was sleeping with Leanna.

I don't know...I just think that she had much easier access to Kyle.

BTW, about the tapping. Well you know, have we got an approximate time frame for when the tapping starts after having your Mind Erased??

Amy's mind was erased in OTM & then didn't start tapping until Departure. Kyle's mind was erased in CYN & didn't start tapping until Departure (she could of slept with him around the OTM time frame as well & that would make it the same length of time as Amy). And Alex...well he was just all messed up.
__________________________

So I don't think that she would of had to MW Kyle into HAVING sex with her...but she would of had to erase it from his mind so that her plan would work.

And what do you all think about figuring out the time span of when your mind is erased until you start tapping?

Cantbehrit

I suppose you're right QFanny, but I didn't really speculate Maria being *changed* because my current beliefs totally swing to the idea. I'm predicting what the Roswriters might possibly try to get us to believe (granted, this is probably futile in and of itself and not necessarily mythy). I don't know, something just tells me that they might go the "Maria is also changed now" route. Regardless of whether it makes total sense in the story or not. IF Liz and Kyle are both changed (I'm inclined to believe Liz definitely has been, Kyle - as you stated - is unconfirmed, although I do think the accidental "stumbling" into Izzy's dream was supposed to be some sort of inclination or sign that he is) - then that would leave Maria basically the odd one out. Hence, to make everything a nice little package, I just feel the RosPTB are going to *change* Maria too. I don't necessarily want this to happen, but I can see it happening.

quote:A television show that has preached so much about destiny and fate would be blind to miss this important, basic fact!!

You hold down Katims QF and I'll rip the mindwarp blinders off of him

Melodious

elenac, Great stuff! Your thinking is much more clear than most of ours, and I think your English is probably better than most too. The only point I would argue is the 3 days to tell she was pregnant. The "30 day" rule for a human pregnancy is based on 30 days after the date of the beginning of the last menstrual cycle. So it would really be about 14 days after conception. This would bump up Tess's time frame to 36 hours to tell she was pregnant, and, of course, this is Science Fiction.

VenusStar, I've considered that Sean could be alien, but, no, I just think he's a human. Since the aliens on Roswell don't generally fraternize with humans too much, I would guess then that it would be that cop named Dan who got Sean out early in exchange for a little spying. Dan disappeared right before Sean appeared. But, again, I've always thought that if this was correct, then Sean would decide to be a double agent and work on behalf of Liz and her friends.

About Liz's flashes though...she had totally different flashes. Max had never seen the things that Liz saw in her mind. She actually led the podsters to almost everything they needed to know about themselves.

Max could give her flashes just like Michael "gave" to Maria. But Maria doesn't have the same ones as Liz.

Notice that in The Pilot...when Max let Liz see him...she saw him as a boy, how he grew up, and how HE saw her, how in his eyes she was beautiful.

When Michael let Maria see him...she saw him as a boy, how he grew up, and how Michael viewed her...Maria is his universe.

The things inside Liz were coming from HER mind and possibly HER memory. She needed MAX to get those...that those two completed each other and made everything possible.

When Liz got flashes from the Nesedo when he was Max I think that proved right there that its LIZ who actually can control her own flashes...her flashes with Nesedo wouldn't unravel any mystery or make anything work - only her's and Max's. But her mind still has the capability to get flashes - for her own protection (part of her powers?).

Now, people are saying that why didn't she get any flashes from Max when she kissed him in Departure? Maybe it has to do with him being mind warped by Tess. I don't know.

When Max and Liz aren't together nothing seems right...everything went downhill. Its funny how everyone complains (even Liz haters) that the show isn't the same..well duh!

Did I just make any sense whatsoever??

Cantbehrit

ITA cant. Yes, Alex had hormones like every other teenage male, but I don't think that would automatically classify him as the the type of guy that would just jump into the sack with some girl he barely knew (unless there was some warping involved and a good deal of warping too). However, Alex's behavior when he returned from "Sweden"... a more "open" Alex, laid back. Now I could just be grasping at straws here, (and I'm probably being hypocritcal, pushing a stereotype just a bit) but didn't it seem like his behavior suggested he got a little *nookie* while he was in "Sweden" (he just doesn't realize WHO was giving him the *nookie*)? More confident, content. More resistant to Isabel's female wiles (even though he still loved her).

quote:I don't think he would of slept with Tess or Leanna for that matter...

Actually, I do think Alex might have slept with Leanna. Tall, beautiful blonde... remind you of anyone? If Tess was warping Alex (and warped him to have sex with her), she probably knew him well enough to know what sort of girl Alex would EVER consider sleeping with. A girl that reminded him of (or was literally a carbon copy, despite physically being a little different than) Isabel.

quote:Now Kyle, he was attracted to Tess in a sexual way BEFORE prom...I don't think Tess needed to MW him BUT (and I think the baby is Kyle's) she could of got him to have sex with her and then ERASED it from his memory. She couldn't risk Max finding out or the others.

ITA. Although I do think she slept with *both* Kyle and Alex.

quote:Then she MW Max...(I'm still clinging to that too) making him think that they had sex. That sounds like a well thought out, organized plan.

You're not the only one "clinging" cant! Not only organized, but a PREMEDITATED plan. Arguably, Tess would have known about Nasedo's plan (if this isn't a fabrication) for QUITE some time (probably as soon as she learned to talk and comprehend English, Nasedo would have been molding her for his plan). ENOUGH time for Tess possibly to have second thoughts about Nasedo's plan and possibly form her OWN plan, separate from Nasedo's.

Something else I was wondering is if Nasedo's death wasn't necessarily caused by Whitaker, but by Tess herself. Tess *never* seemed to show a great affection for Nasedo (He wasn't exactly Ward Cleaver you know. He also never let her celebrate Christmas, etc etc). Tess also said once Nasedo "can't die". Well, what if he *can't? IF they healed him properly? What if ONE of the podsters wasn't exactly *giving her all* in the healing in AN? Granted, I'm probably grossly stretching with this -- but if Tess had her OWN agenda and that didn't coincide with Nasedo's... I could see Tess making sure Nas wasn't a factor in endangering her OWN plan. Nas' death also conveniently got the podsters to at least feel sorry for her and got her into casa Valenti (although I'm sure T was *hoping* for a free pass into Casa Evans, but that *didn't* happen... thank god).

Nas' plan also involved killing the podsters. I really don't think Tess wanted that (because I do think she loved Max... in her own perverse way -- she also argued with Nasedo once that the podsters were HER family, Nas NEVER was - I believe this happened in either 4S or M2TM). Her plan possibly involved *securely* snagging Max in her web and using as little mindwarp as possible to do it. I do believe she wanted Max to *really* love her. Mindwarp is reality based on lies - a reality that can fall apart like a house of cards. She didn't want Max's love to be a house of cards (unfortunately for T, that's *exactly* what it was imo).

Max DID NOT really love Tess, his behavior HOM and on never gave me the impression that he truly loved her (everything was based on warps - hence Max often looked more "uncomfortable" than anything. Then there's of course, the Stepford Max factor). I don't think it was until CYN Tess finally fell into Nasedo's plan. By CYN, Tess realized (via the Alex confrontation) that her mindwarps DO NOT last forever. She also possibly realized that too much mindwarping CAN be deadly. IF she's been mindwarping Max this whole time, she probably feared (due to Max's resistance to her? She KNEW that she would continuously have to warp him for some time before he actually started to truly love her) she'd kill him after a certain amount of warping (even if he is a hybrid). Regardless, Tess KNEW she had to get off the planet and SOON before her *other* warps (namely Kyle's warps - Alexocide is part of it, but the sex itself is what she was truly trying to avoid revelation) started wearing off. She reluctantly but desperately pushed Nasedo's plan full force by CYN (WHAT happened in the episode JUST AFTER CYN?! The tex! Then the miracle baby -- Oops, baby can't survive on Earth, gotta leave! Grossly convenient y'all)

Editing this because I can't take full credit for the above theories, Dayneen and I have been exchanging some ideas via PM and some of the above is hers.

quote:I don't know...I just think that she had much easier access to Kyle.

I think she had fairly easy access to both of them. Especially if she was getting help. However, I agree, Kyle was more readily available. He was *right there* in the same house and he LIKED her.

quote:And what do you all think about figuring out the time span of when your mind is erased until you start tapping?

IMO, I think the proximity between the warp and the tapping has something to do with how *grandious* the warp itself was. Since the warps on Alex were rather massive, powerful warps - it took longer for Alex to come out of them (it took a few months before he finally snapped - of which he still needed a trigger - the thai food). The minor/quick warps/erases such as Tess erasing/warping the Alexocide from Kyle's head, the Amy warp - besides being *quick* and not as substantial... I also feel Tess was probably worn down from the Alex warping, Max warping and whoever else she was single-handedly warping at the time. She just didn't have the energy she had in - for example - SKIN & BONES when she warped that room of people AND another alien (Whitaker). She was at full power then. By the time DEPARTURE hit, her powers weren't their strongest imo. She was just worn out and her warps weren't as potent (which she probably knew HENCE her hurry to leave). She also had to continue to make the sick baby stuff seem VERY believable to Max. Max also, arguably, possesses a stronger mind than Alex, so it probably took MORE out of Tess to get Max to do lesser things than it took with Alex. Alex was a much easier subject, but no less trying on her powers because of how long / strongly she was warping him. Warping Max to believe the sick baby stuff was taking basically everything she had so when she warped Kyle of the Alexocide - it was no where near as effective as a normal/standard Tess warp, so it didn't last (the sex will take longer to come out because it was a stronger warp).

If we see Max tapping, nail biting, strumming, foot tapping or some other plethora of fidgety behavior next season - I'm not going to be surprised.

Melodious

You all have been busy theorizing and discussing, and I'm far behind in my reading so I have nothing to add really. BUT I do want to welcome all the newbies!! It is great to hear what you have to add and have observed!

As far as who got Tess pregnant ("IF" she truly is pregnant - which I'm praying is all a ruse), I can see both sides of the argument for all the males leads - Max, Kyle and Alex. My favorite is Kyle - only because I see more support in the episodes than for anyone else that he could have had sex with Tess willingly, and than she would have "erased" his memory. BUT part of me worries - after reading the KKB interview - that the writers are not "clever" enough to have developed this type of backstory, and that we have to take what we were shown at face value - Max did have Tex in a low and disperate moment and a baby resulted. All of which - if it turns out that way - makes me lose a great deal of respect for Max's character if he was so easily (and yes - I do think that it was too easy for Tess to trick him into bed - I do not buy the "poor boy was stressed and abandoned and sought solice in the arms of Tess") manipulated into compromising his values and putting all those around him in such jeopardy. I will wait to see how the writers deal with this in the first part of the season. If they go the route of deception that includes either the baby being false or the product of a coupling with Kyle or Alex that was "erased" - than I will be a loyal fan - BUT if it goes the route of Max being the father, the baby is real and we are taken on the quest for his son, well I may continue to watch, but not loyally, and probably will only continue if there is some outstanding other storyline involving Liz that is somehow developed on the side. Hope this doesn't sound too harsh!

Well - off to work!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Now to work!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Pardon me if this has been mulled over and over, discussed to death and discarded, but a post way back on page 3 about Kyle maybe starting to remember things he did with Tess, reminded me of Kyle's dreams of Max naked and all that. [I'm spoiled, kill me now if that never happened nd it was just a false spoiler. Moreover, I live in South Africa and we're only up to Roswell Xmas Carol here].

My spec: Was Kyle having those dreams because way back then he and Tess were already trimmin' the lamp and he was mindwarped into forgetting all about it? Like I said, this must have been discussed before, and eager little beaver I am sometimes, I just came to the last page to ask. I will, however, now return to page three and continue reading, LOL.
I'm in awe of you guys! Great specs!

Lee

As far as the tapping...yes see that is what I kinda was thinking. Depending on the depth and length of the erasing is what determines the time the tapping starts.

I think Amy & Kyle were ME around the same time (I say around). So what about Max?? Does anyone think that its possible his mind can't be erased but only MW for a short time & the result of that is his nasty attitude to everyone he loves?

I was gonna comment more on the things you said Mel but I think I'm starting to confuse myself!

Oh yeah, maybe she did have sex with both...I definitly think she had sex with Kyle. There is just so many clues to back it up. She was getting close to him & he was feeling the same way. I'm sorry but in no way did he care about her like a "sister". She had to of made him feel that way. And I'm sure if she had sex with Alex, like you said, she made him think it was Leanna.

Cantbehrit

I always thought that Liz was changed because Max healed her, not because of the connection they made. Her change was the result of Max using his powers on her physical self.

I remember a discussion about the placement of Max's hands while he healed her. In this pic, he's holding up her head. The theory was that he somehow changed her directly at her brain here, unintentionally of course. I've always liked to think that he merely awakened latent powers Liz held within herself, but we'll move on ^_^
This would mean that Maria wouldn't be changed ONLY by the connection. I think they made it clear in Season 1 that the ability to connect to people like that was an 'alien' thing not just a Max thing. And remember, in Sexual Healing Michael got flashes from Maria, and told her that the reason she didn't get flashes from him was because he wasn't open.

But what about Liz getting flashes from, say, Maxcedo? I believe that because Liz was changed, she gets flashes if SHE's open. This also kind of explains why she and Max didn't flash when they kissed in Departure. Not only were they both closed to each other because of the hurt they've been experiencing all season, but Liz inadvertantly closed herself because of FMax. Subconciously, she knew that Max would be able to figure her out if he kissed her and got flashes, so she closed herself up so he couldn't. As Max and Liz begin to heal from this season they will become more open to each other and get flashes again.

Um, I think that's the end of that.

Tahoe_Gal~
I agree with you about the happy medium. And Isabel addressed that in Departure when she said "Half of me is from there, half of me is from here. What makes one half more important than the other?" Ghost-Alex's reply, "I guess that's what you have to figure out" is I think, going to be the basis of Season 3 - trying to find the balance of their human and alien sides.

superpoohb~
Thanks! I'm glad someone agrees with me! Like haniczka said a little while back, I don't get to worked up when no one replies to my posts, because I know if I was completely wrong people would tell me so. Also, I'm not a big Nasedo fan myself. I had mini rant about him on the rebel/dreamer thread a few days back.

haniczka~
Yay! I'm so glad!

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

Did you read my post above? Basically I think we're thinking along the same lines...although I didn't really know how to explain why Liz didn't get any flashes from Max in departure and I think you explained it perfectly ....

Cantbehrit

Pardon me if this has been mulled over and over, discussed to death and discarded, but a post way back on page 3 about Kyle maybe starting to remember things he did with Tess, reminded me of Kyle's dreams of Max naked and all that. [I'm spoiled, kill me now if that never happened nd it was just a false spoiler. Moreover, I live in South Africa and we're only up to Roswell Xmas Carol here].

My spec: Was Kyle having those dreams because way back then he and Tess were already trimmin' the lamp and he was mindwarped into forgetting all about it? Like I said, this must have been discussed before, and eager little beaver I am sometimes, I just came to the last page to ask. I will, however, now return to page three and continue reading, LOL.
I'm in awe of you guys! Great specs!

Lee

Welcome! Alas, yes that was a false spoiler. Kyle's dream in To Serve and Protect (your next ep) does not include a naked Max; it's about Buddha and Kyle's possible changed/alien status
~Tas

One thing though, I don't think the babay is Kyle's or Alex's. Sadly enough, I think it is Max's baby.
But that's okay, 'cause

#1--Tess is outta here
#2--More sci-fi storyline for S3
#3--Tess didn't want anyone else, only Max (He had to be mindwarped to sleep with her, had to be! Or maybe just warped period)

What bugs me most about the tex (besides the obvious, considering I'm a Dreamer), REALLY bugs me... is WHERE it took place. Not somewhere like a bedroom (Max and Liz's wouldbe cementing would have occured in her bedroom), not in the middle of the desert - at night - just off Highway 42 by a collapsed radio tower, not in the backseat of Bob on Buckley Point, not even in the friggin' eraser room. It happened in an OBSERVATORY. A place that would give an illusion of privacy, but in fact, it's probably one of the *worst* places you'd want to go if you were going to do the dirty deed with someone. However "romantic".

The elusive tex was filmed in Griffith Park Observatory. Now the last time I was there, I wasn't really checking out their security systems or anything, BUT with what I KNOW is in there... I'd be most dumbfounded if they didn't have some kind of whizbang security system to keep the place protected (automatic locks/gates on probably every entrance, cameras at every corner, probably even a guard or guards posted 24/7). If we're to assume the "Roswell" Observatory was supposed to resemble Griffith Park in *every* way, then I'd PRESUME that the Ros Observatory ALSO has some kind of whizbang, state-of-the-art security system.

Granted, it's an observatory, not necessarily the National Reserve, but there IS some pretty priceless and/or EXPENSIVE (sometimes irreplaceable in the case of space matter, etc) stuff in places like that - at least in Griffith Park. That telescope Max and Tess were using to gaze at the Barnard Star alone ... that would probably garner enough worry in people (investors, caretakers, astronomers, philanthropists - whoever tags their name/responsability on it) to acquire some pretty serious security to keep it sound. Telescopes like that are certainly NOT cheap and probably not cheap to fix either if some vandals had their way with it.

Max and Tess "rested" in the middle of the observatory *all night* without ever getting bothered once and simply walking out of the place without getting stopped by a guard or cops?? Of course, Ros has forced us to accept even more ludicrous things I suppose (Max survived the cyclotron *how* exactly?)... but this almost seems like too much for me or anyone to simply accept as "they used their alien powers to get in AND get out". Maybe a door on a house, but a door of a place with probably an automatic/computer-operated lock and cameras everywhere? I don't know.

Even casa de Evans has a security system, which alerted the fire department when Diane had that little incident in the kitchen during TOY HOUSE. Roswell Observatory isn't going to have - not only a similar system - but when triggered probably would alert every pohunk deputy in a 20 mile radius of Roswell? When Max and Tess walked out of the observatory, IMO, there *should have been* at least a FEW cop cars there waiting to "escort" them home (or to Sheriff Hansen's office). If said cops hadn't already bust down the Observatory door via Hansen's *subtle* approach to entering buildings and dragged Max and Tess off in cuffs for breaking into the Observatory.

I guess something else that's been egging my suspicions on is something that happened in OTM, well, just before and during. As y'all know, in Maria's intro she stated that if we watched OTM carefully, we'd find the "key to everything". One immediately is led to assume that she meant Tess' ability to erase memories. Which is probably exactly what "Maria" (cough:thewriters:cough) meant. HOWEVER, also in OTM, Brody was waving a cd in front of Max.. WHAT did this cd contain? UFO Center SECURITY FOOTAGE showing Max raise his green force field... hard evidence and future confirmation for Brody that Max is an alien. Perhaps Maria was referring to several keys in OTM or the entire episode was suppose to be a "key"? Which would include the TYPE of evidence Brody had against Max.

If any of the above holds any water, this wouldn't be the first time the podsters were compromised via video cameras. The special unit planted that microcamera in Michael's apartment which Max found while they were arguing in TLV. Evidence via this microcamera (I believe) led the Feds to tear Mike's place apart looking for the orb. This SAME microcamera was used to spy on the Hardings. Via this camera, it revealed Tess' true identity (she fixed the Buddha with her powers) - also in TLV. The episode title alone... TESS, LIES AND *VIDEOTAPE*?? Perhaps the Season 3 ep where Liz figures out the sex was fake via the Observatory security footage should be called "Tess' lies revealed by videotape". he he... ahem.

IMO, Max and Tess might as well have been going at it in the middle of a bank or a museum or a laboratory. Sure they'd be sealed in these places tighter than a drum in the middle of the night, but... Smile, you're on camera.

And y'all are probably rolling your eyes at me like crazy due to the above but *I don't care*!! It makes sense to me damn it!!

Melodious

Melodious, (and please don't think I'm picking on you. I meant to post pages back thanking you for expressing a theory that works so beautifully for me...) earlier on this thread you theorize that Is. could end up having a child with Sean. I don't know why, but I think once a hybrid chooses a mate, it's forever. Of course that theory has yet to be tested. But Is. always describes herself as being alone. Even in VLV she says to Alex "Here I am, alone again." So she finally gives Alex her love, and here she is...really alone again. That does leave her wide open for the "great love of her life" that Whittaker told her about in "Surprise."

Back to Sean, what is the one thing that Sean, Kyle and Max all have in common? Hmmm. It's a triangle with Liz in the middle.

Tas, that's all I said about the Granolith lights: Liz is the triangle in the middle. I AM SO HAPPY YOU GUYS FINALLY SAW THAT! It killed me to find something that so perfectly substantiated your theories, and no one picked up on it. Thank you Nemo and THANK YOU to Nemo's wife. You've made my day! -HH

I definitly think that Liz will figure it out & will hesitate for only a minute to see if there are any tapes from that frightful evening. (I can picture her nervous face now...checking tapes to see if Max really slept with Tess....could you imagine the suspense!

I bet you that Max and Tess laid on the top of Bob's hood looking at the stars all night!

Can I ask this but didn't they wake up in the morning or not? Because I thought it was light out in the observatory & then it was dark when Max took Tess home.

I guess not or someone here would of already noticed.

Cantbehrit

At first impression, I believe he was. He flat out says that he's a "new Alex Whitman" at some point (I think in TSAP), who won't be following Isabel Evans around like a puppy dog, etc. HOWEVER, I do think that was only on the surface. I think the *real* Alex was very scared, nervous, fidgety (tapping)... remember when Iz came to his window, didn't he jump like 10 ft. or something? If he didn't, I do remember him being visibly shaken/startled. It made you wonder - even then - what the he** was wrong with him.

This is a great source of irritation with me, that Is. finally fell for Alex, and it's in fact Alex-the-puppet.

Well, I don't know... I think it was Alex she always liked to some extent... but all Alex had to do was back off and it threw Izzy for a loop. Now she wanted something that seemed less "accessable" than before (Alex was pining over her and would have bent over backwards to please her - suddenly that stopped and she probably missed it and didn't even realize it). She was indeed acknowledging ALEX finally imo and she did it just in the nick of time.

Melodious, and please don't think I'm picking on you.

Not at all

quote:Earlier on this thread you theorize that Is. could end up having a child with Sean.

I don't know why, but I think once a hybrid chooses a mate, it's forever.

...That does leave her wide open for the "great love of her life" that Whittaker told her about in "Surprise."

Herein lies my great conundrum with Sean. Should we trust him or shouldn't we? Ok, y'all are probably going to think I'm stretching here (especially the Sean supporters).... but when I first heard Devon Gummersall was going to be playing Sean Deluca... I got a little nervous. Devon is recognizable, has a past Katims connection (had one of the bigger parts in MSCL) and is a very talented/accomplished young actor. WHY would they pick such an actor for a part if his part wasn't going to be VERY important in some way (at least this is my belief)?

Would they pick Devon simply to play a character who's a "distraction" for Liz... or would they pick him because he's actually playing someone (or will be playing someone) far more important than even we realize yet? I think y'all know where I'm going with this, but what if Sean turns out to be Kivar somehow? I don't think he's a husk OR a Skin per se (he bled in OTM after he got stabbed, unless that was some kind of warp). Although, god knows what Kivar could show up in considering what kind of resources one would presume are at a KING's disposal. A husk that bleeds? A new sort of hybrid body? Or is Sean simply being emissaried (continuously?) by Kivar (who has the energy and resources to do this)?

I refer to the *past Katims connection* because the last actor who had a Katims connection on Roswell was David Conrad (one of the main characters in Katims' "Relativity"). Obviously, DC played Agent Pierce, a pretty nasty villain.

Devon has also played *troubled* characters before. Didn't he play a suave rapist in FELICITY? Regardless of his past roles (that honestly don't mean anything now, he's playing SEAN DELUCA, not some character in FELICITY or MSCL), Devon does have the talent imo to play either a nice guy (Brian Krakow) or a not-so-nice guy (the FELICITY rapist) equally convincing.

Hence, I tie in Sean with Isabel eventually due to my belief he MIGHT be Kivar. Perhaps in between bouts of "emissary" - Sean emerges from his mindwarped state and actually falls for Isabel. This could become a problem (with considerable drama ) if Sean or the podsters (maybe Liz) figure out what's going on with him... Sean will begin fighting Kivar or resisting the "emissary". He won't want to hurt Isabel (not unlike the Grant situation), but he'll be powerless to stop himself. This gets even messier if both Kivar and Sean are in love with Izzy (aka Vilondra). Although, I've debated in the past whether or not Kiv was truly in love with Vilondra or just used her to get at her brother. Who knows what the Ros PTB have in store for us with Sean, he could go any way imho.

Of course, if Sean turned out to be Kivar, this would make his relationship/attraction with/to Liz (and her attraction to him?) all the more "complicated". If Sean is of the alien variety however... why hasn't Liz ever got any flashes from him a la Maxedo last season? Is Kiv just THAT good (and can block the flashes from Liz, since he possibly knows she's experienced them before? Via Mikey G's confession to Maria in DEP, we DO know alien-types can block flashes from certain people) or is Sean just some regular guy and I'm being totally paranoid? Something tells me, a gut feeling, that we haven't seen every side of Sean DeLuca just yet.

Melodious

Or Tess knocked him out. His unconscious mind more susceptible to the warp? Since Tess was possibly *already* falling low on her energy reserves from warping all those "memories" in Max's head earlier in the arc (not to mention the Alex and Kyle stuff) - she couldn't warp Max to actually have sex with her and she also had to do it while he was unconscious? It would have taken more energy than she had to spare otherwise. Which is why the sex is just a warp? Could Tess have made a pass at him earlier in the evening and Max rejected her again - which she obviously erased from his memory (and overlapped with the warped sex in the Observatory)? Hence, she knew she'd never get Max to voluntarily or even warp him to actually sleep with her anytime soon, so she had to warp him to at least make him believe he did?

Editing this because if we were going to go with the theories that Tess was possibly pregnant BEFORE the tex (with either Alex's or Kyle's baby)... then this could be another reason why the tex is just a warp? Tess wasn't strong enough to actually warp Max into having real sex because she was too weak/sick from the pregnancy? Her power wasn't to the peak it would have been had she NOT been pregnant (but she was, and a few months pregnant at that)?

Max's head lies motionless on Bob's steering wheel and Tess is sitting in the passenger seat the whole time warping him like there's no tomorrow? All night they're sitting in Bob in the Observatory parking lot (and the security cameras are filming an empty observatory? Which is exactly what Liz is going to see when/if she decides to hunt down the security footage from that night)??

Can I ask this but didn't they wake up in the morning or not? Because I thought it was light out in the observatory & then it was dark when Max took Tess home.

I'm pretty sure sunlight was beaming in the Observatory when they "awoke"... but I do believe you're right that it was still DARK out (or the sun was barely peaking out) when Max drove Tess home. Just a CHAD or has there been some discrepencies in time (reality) here? Tess warped Max to wake-up to see sunlight.... but when she shut-off the warp and opened her eyes (it seems when Tess *really* concentrates on the warping, she shuts her eyes [she'd want her full concentration on warping Max considering what and how long she was warping]. But I really don't believe she *always* needs to shut them to warp someone), the sun hadn't come up yet but she didn't really see that because her eyes were closed and/or she was too distracted with the massive warping to notice, hence it was still dark out when he drove her home?

Melodious

haniczka You know why I didn't see it before? When you first mentioned it, I was thinking of the light emanating from the granolith itself. But what the CD lights look like are the lights around the whirlwind symbol that's counting down the time. Now that I know what I'm looking for, it's SOOO obvious! Thanks for keeping at us
~Tas

But we've seen Max and Michael bleed..and Tess for that matter. All of them have been beaten up and left bloody and bruised, right?

Thank you for confirming that there was light when Tess and Max woke up, I thought there was.

Cantbehrit

cant~
I read your post after I posted mine, heh. This thing's tricky when two people are on at the same time.
And the fact that we both came up with it only makes it more likely.

Mel~
I agree with you about the observitory. And there's also this: It's a freakin' observitory!! People work in it at night! If you wanna have sex in an observitory and not get caught, do it during the day! Night is a busy time at the observitory.
It would be kinda funny if Liz asked where the tex happened and Max said the observitory and Liz looked at him like he was crazy and said, "This was at night? Why weren't there any people there?" And then they go on to figure out that it didn't actually happen.

I can't make up my mind about Sean. I'm really stuck on the fence on this one. My sis is a major Fryer but I'm a little suspicious. For once I have no theory so I'm just gonna shut my mouth and see what the writers serve me.

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

Mel! I didn't know that Katims was responsible for "Relativity." I really liked that show--In fact, I think I still have the pilot on tape somewhere. Was David Conrad the main love interest of Kimberly Williams? I thought he looked familiar. Also, I recognized Mrs. Evans right away from Relativity--I'm pretty sure she's also the mom in the movie "The Goonies."

I can't believe all that's been written today. I've only had a chance to skim it. ITA w/ the observatory discussion. Also, I was convinced Grant Sorenson was going to turn out to be Kivar--now I see how Sean could possibly play into that. The trouble with the Sean theory is that he has a family history with Maria so he probably would only be an emissary.

Bye, for now.

ZERO--you know I relate to your feelings about Max as well---but really I do think that there is something not right about the sex and baby(if there really is one-if so-whose?) just as we knew there was something NOT RIGHT ABOUT TESS from the minute she landed in ROSWELL--what concerns me--is I hope on our new home network UPN--JK will go back to his original style of storytelling as in Season1----hoping that WB interference(them wanting TESS DRAGGED OUT ALL SEASON) was not what JK wanted and that he won't drag out this particular storyline because frankly I don't think the audience will hold for it-yes I could be wrong its just my opinion. So in other words I don't want to get dragged through an entire season with the supposed Sex and Baby being real, being Max's only to reveal in finale--oops Max is still a virgin!!! Please JK I am begging!!!!

Mel! I didn't know that Katims was responsible for "Relativity." I really liked that show--In fact, I think I still have the pilot on tape somewhere. Was David Conrad the main love interest of Kimberly Williams? I thought he looked familiar. Also, I recognized Mrs. Evans right away from Relativity--I'm pretty sure she's also the mom in the movie "The Goonies."

I can't believe all that's been written today. I've only had a chance to skim it. ITA w/ the observatory discussion. Also, I was convinced Grant Sorenson was going to turn out to be Kivar--now I see how Sean could possibly play into that. The trouble with the Sean theory is that he has a family history with Maria so he probably would only be an emissary.

Bye, for now.

-Dreamer At Heart

-Dreamer At Heart

Word! However, the one thing about the Griffith Observatory (at least) is that inside there are several things you can look at and study beyond the telescopes (prior nightly stargazing) during the day. Not to mention the gift shop that's only open during normal business hours. I'd presume since these scenes were filmed there; the Ros Observatory has these *same* sorts of things. One thing that's popular for Observatories (museums etc) particularly in the day are group tours for children (mostly school children) - now unless these kids were looking for a lesson on the hybrid birds and bees...

You're right though zA, in that the place is an OBSERVATORY (one of the few places that is probably ACTIVE at night, particularly in the everso lively Roswell, NM, hmpf), this alone should probably lead one to question the validity of the "sex". Not to mention astronomers in general are a vampiric sort (work all night, sleep in the day - most of what they study can be seen BEST or only be seen at night, unless they're studying daylight only astronomical occurrences - what's the more LIKELY scenario??). There were probably professionals working a daily *normal* astronomers' shift or have offices in that observatory at night. Here they are, working on some research... these two (ALIEN) teenagers are going at it in the middle of the Observatory floor having *hour long* floating orgasms (M&T don't even leave the place till morning)!? And said professionals don't hear it, go down to investigate or simply bump into them by accident?? Right.

Melodious

-Dreamer At Heart

Sorry.

The whole Leanna thing could have been a MW, just to get Alex's mind off Isabel. His persistant thoughts of her could have been disturbing his (out-of-mind experience). I've got a whole (Love is stronger than...) riff going here. Does that make sense?

Melodious

[/B]
Hey, I've shook hands with JK! His a nice guy! (Just had to throw that in)

DAH
Yes, there are more theories to be read when you get done reading Zero's introduction. shapeshifter and I have worked on documenting some of them and some of our favorite threads. (You really have to credit shapeshifter for that mostly - she does all the html techie stuff).

The link is www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell to get you going.

Howdy to all the newbies - I think most of the questions/ideas you have posted to have been answered by somebody.

Question since we are talking so much about Maria... What is here function to the pod squad. I sort of see her as the official car owner. Without that Jetta, what does Maria have to give? Let's face it, I don't think there was a lot of interaction between Liz and Maria this year. Sure, some, but not a great deal. She was more or less a Michael ego corrector to me.

Sorry about all the messed-up posting. I guess that's what "in training" is all about.

Anyway, I just re-watched "Ask Not" and I could not help but notice that at the end when Tess says,

TESS: You realize our problems aren't over, don't you, Max? Whoever killed Nasedo is still out there...and he's probably close by.

she very clearly averts her eyes from Max. She looks very shifty. (Well, at least more so than usual.)

Mel, you're amazing!

Or maybe...
Larek left an impression on Brody, you'll recall. When his brain was damaged, some Larek leaked into Brody's consciousness. Alex was similarly "posessed", perhaps, or at least intimately used. So perhaps his user left an impression, one that the damage to Alex's mind let enter into his personality?

Perhaps the "cool Alex" is Alex, with a leakage of "cool" into him. So, is there a person who can mindwarp, interested in Isabel, and who is a "cool guy"?

It's the Dude in the shades, man... Nikolas!

Nas' plan also involved killing the podsters. I really don't think Tess wanted that (because I do think she loved Max... in her own perverse way -- she also argued with Nasedo once that the podsters were HER family, Nas NEVER was - I believe this happened in either 4S or M2TM). Her plan possibly involved *securely* snagging Max in her web and using as little mindwarp as possible to do it. I do believe she wanted Max to *really* love her. Mindwarp is reality based on lies - a reality that can fall apart like a house of cards. She didn't want Max's love to be a house of cards (unfortunately for T, that's *exactly* what it was imo)...Mel, I posted the same thing about Tess letting Nasedo die a couple of pages back, which means, not only did we both come up with the same thing independently, but we both thought of it post Departure after rewatching AN. So, I think we really may be on to something. The only question is, does JK rewatch at all? Will he see it too? And if he does, where will he go with it? Or was it an idea he's long since dropped? ***sigh*** I just hope I have a new job by the time Roswell starts again.

And, Mel, ITA exactly about where Tess was at emotionally with Max. I just hadn't put it into words.

Reg, I hadn't thought about the age difference with Leanna. But I'm still thinking that Tess's line about how Alex would tell them "what I did" sounded like she did something more terrible than mind warping...
--not that mind warping isn't pretty dastardly--
Okay, Reg, let's suppose maybe 'what she did' wasn't having sex with Alex--maybe it was changing the Destiny Book, and maybe Alex knew she had to let Nasedo die to do that.
--Not that I think Nasedo was a good guy...but he had his useful talents.
And he delivered some great lines.

47Born-interesting theory about Lonnie--makes perfect sense--in fact I remember wondering if we got Lonnie back from MITC because Tess started playing Suzie homemaker in ARCC which followed MITC so I still think this is a great possibility as well!!!

Venus Star--not everyone on this thread hates Sean--YET LOL--the jury is still out on him--the possibilities are endless as who he could be--but Liz referred to him as the LEAST DEEP guy in America---Least Deep means SHALLOW---Mr Shallow---as in Doug Shellow that was the hint I got--but who exactly was Doug Shellow--we know he was studying ancient languages and archeology at UNM--yes same place as Alex????? Was he good or bad--some say maybe TicTac? Some say bad guy, some even say this was Nesado?

just a thought

This may already have been posed, but....

What if TicTac is the "protector" for the Roswell 4 and Harding is the "protector" for the NY 4 dupes? What if Harding is the "dupe nasedo"?

Many have already commented that Harding could be the one responsible for switching Tess and Ava. Maybe he knew that he would need to carry out his "deal" with the Roswell 4 since he knew either they were the *true* Royal 4 or knew they would be easier to manipulate since they didn't remember so much about their lives. Either way, he knew he would need an "in" with the Rowell crew, so he made the Tess/Ava switch (Lonnie would be too into her own thing and Rath was too power-hungry and argumentative).

TicTac may or may not have known about the switch. Maybe TicTac figured out the Harding/Tess/Kivar plan and TicTac is the one responsible for Harding's death!

What do you think?

Mel - You raise some wonderful questions about the Tex in the Observatory! I've also been to Griffith Ob - and two things (other than what you raise) have always bugged me! First - where are all the people? Isn't nighttime the busiest time for an Observatory? Granted, I don't have much experience in this area, but that was when we would go to visit and "see" the stars. Also - how did Tess get there? Did she walk? She obviously was driven home the next morning by Max, but how did she just happen to mosey on up there to find him? Okay - these could just all be poorly thought out CHADS, but they could also be clues to the illusion, and the fact that it was all a mindwarp.

Mel- You also raise some valid questions about Sean and the fact he is being played by DG. I remember what an excellent job he did playing "the Pink Guy" on Felicity that actually turned out to be more tragic than anything. He also recently played a mentally slow waiter on "Once and Again" that commits suicide after taking the restaurant patrons hostage - and wonderfully sad portrayal. SO - yes, if Sean was nothing than a throw away character - and we have had many of those this season - why cast such a well-rounded actor? I personally like Sean, and hope if he is critical to the plot, that he is more than the point of another love triangle, and is a protector of some kind that has become infactuated with (or is there to protect) Liz - and took Sean's identity to get close to her (just like Tic Tac took Dr. Margoles' identity to get close to pod squad). But then again - I'm being force to accept that there is no hidden plan, and that Sean is Sean is Sean, and nothing more than a distraction! But there is still that look that Liz and Sean give each other when he first walks into the Crashdown - a connection - not too far from the original youngster connection between Max and Liz. SO - maybe Sean is Zan - the Dupe that we think was killed - coming to "find" that someone he was always looking for. I doubt that if Zan did somehow survive, he would be clueing the NY Dupes about that fact, but he might follow them to NM to find out what they are doing, and while there discover Liz and set about to find a way into her life.

Okay - it's out there - but why not!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Qfanny directed me to www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell and after reading the theories about the alien symbols and looking at the pentagon and Destiny Book tranlation, I saw (although someone may have discovered this before me) that

the "title" to the destiny book is in the upper left corner of the cave map!

This is my first time inserting screencaps, so we'll see if it works. (All images from Crashdown.com and the ulink site.)

Also, all of the characters on the pentagon can be found on the map (most easily seen in the sketch of the cave map). Some are the same as the DB title.

I want to know what it means!

But like I said in my one of my posts...when they woke up in the Observatory there was light from outside. But when he took her home it was pitch black outside...why is that???

Cantbehrit

Someone mentioned though about his ear piercing. Didn't Rath have piercings and talk about them?

There HAS to be some clues in things he's said and done. Like the 1959 shirt, could that be the clue that he's the Protector of the NM 4??

I've never hung on every word or look Sean has said or given. Tonight I'm gonna go back and watch all the ep's with him in them. Now I'm extremely curious!

Of course he could just be Sean, Maria's cousin who likes Liz ...but he'll eventually find out about the Alien thing and become an important part of the team....

Cantbehrit

VenusStar

BTW, if he is tic tac, he could know nicknames and such, because he has been watchiing them for a long time. However, if he is then were is the real Sean? Couldn't be still in jail, that would be confusing.

~Sheri

Venus Star-yes Sean referred to Alex as Alice and Starbox thought of Alice through the LOOKING GLASS!

I am hoping they might use Sean as a protector or something but I still have my doubts--reasons I have my doubts about Sean as follows.....

the mention of Maria's exacto knife being missing and Sean lives there

he gave no warning to Michael and Isabel coming down the stairs into the UFO center

when Brody and Larek were struggling and Sean supposedly got stabbed they knocked into a sign that said FACT or FICTION?

in OTM when Maria said don't worry I sent a code to Liz----Sean's ears perked up and asked what code----minutes later the CODE means nothing to Isabel or Michael(ERASED MEMORIES???)---we know Nicholas has this ability so if Sean were Nicholas hmmmm???

In ITLATTB Sean tells Liz "never stay in the same place for more than five minutes" well a shapeshifter might take on different forms moving around to screw with peoples heads.

at the bowling alley-Sean and Liz bowl in LANE 32-----Kyles football jersey number is 32? What is the connection?

Sean tells Liz there's a million coats of OIL on bowling alley lanes----in BIY on their way to the abandoned house with the bomb and destiny translation we see OIL digging rigs????------also I think back to Max to the Max when Maxcedo and Liz at the gas station the sign on the gas station says OIL BREAKS--a clear misspelling? It should have been BRAKES.

Also at the end of HOM when Liz returns to the bowling alley--Max and kissing Tess and Liz is sliding with Sean --song playing "you can't fight the UNDERTOE.....not when you're all alone....how long til you let go...."
was this music meant to reflect the idea that both Max and Liz were being swallowed by the UNDERTOE from Sean and Tess?????

GraceKel..I like all of your reasons about Sean. Right now there isn't enough evidence to go on whether he's good or bad. But I think we all agree that there is going to be something up with him.

I like this last reason the best...and it does have a little clue like you said. Sean could of been "brought in" to simply try to distract Liz.

Although he also helped her with the school and everything which could be "a clue" that he is Tic Tac. If he does turn out to be Tic Tac then there shouldn't be a triangle because King Max will order him to leave Liz alone..and he'll have to follow orders, right?

BTW, I think the light may be a sign...that it APPEARED that Tess and Max spent the night in the observatory but when in reality it was the same night & he simply took her home after she was done with the mindwarp.

Cantbehrit

Cantbehrit

Actually, no it's not. When Max and Tess enter the Valenti home, it's definitely after dawn. You're probably thinking it was dark b/c Jim flipped on the light and Max squinted, but I was wondering why he bothered b/c there was already a fair amount of light!
~Tas

Now someone mentioned(sorry I don't remember who it was) that they believe that the royals were meant to hook up but meant to be with humans----which I think is a great possibility too-----but wouldn't that mean that Tess or Harding did a mindwarp in the pod chamber last season----because why would MOTHER take the time to tell them that the King brought his bride and her daughter brought the man she was betrothed to and FAIL TO MENTION oh but oopppss don't hook up?????? This simply does not make sense. Now it would make sense if that whole scene in the pod chamber was a mindwarp which is quite possible too still.

See, you just keep making good points. I was trying to get a feel for why Sean was helping but I agree with you that the Destiny book wasn't the correct version (I just seem to keep forgetting I thought that ) So that could be a clue that Sean is working with Tess.

quote:Now someone mentioned(sorry I don't remember who it was) that they believe that the royals were meant to hook up but meant to be with humans----which I think is a great possibility too-----but wouldn't that mean that Tess or Harding did a mindwarp in the pod chamber last season----because why would MOTHER take the time to tell them that the King brought his bride and her daughter brought the man she was betrothed to and FAIL TO MENTION oh but oopppss don't hook up?????? This simply does not make sense. Now it would make sense if that whole scene in the pod chamber was a mindwarp which is quite possible too still.

The Mother thing wasn't really touching in my opinion. So this could be true. And Tess was there so it could of very easily been a mind warp...or the wrong message. How do they know SHE was their mother?

Cantbehrit

I was wondering what was Harding and Tess doing from the time she came out of the pod to the time they first came to town. You know the "we've been looking for you" line is a lie cause she has all those pictures of Max.

Also - rewatching these scenes do make me believe it is a mindwarp - all the "wake up Max!," "dream" talk, "I'm feeling a little weird about it right now" comments ALL play into the "mindwarp" theory - BUT there is a part of me that feels that JK is determined to drag us all down the "Tex was real, and the baby is Max's" path much to (what I can tell) everyone's disgust! There is plenty of clues that allow for them to go down the path that most of us want iwht plenty of interesting twists and turns - but I'm very concerned TPTB (JK, et al) will drag us the other way - and I can say, if this drags on for too long in Season 3 - will doubt I will stick around for the ride. A roller coaster ride I welcome, but not with such a disgusting and pathetic storyline!

Oh - and the Tess looking in the mirror scene can definitely be taking in many ways - as if she is discovering she is pregnant (2 - 4 hours after sex - HA HA HA - don't make me laugh about that one!) or she is realizing that she now has the perfect plan in place and it is all falling together as she had hoped, etc.

I must say - rewatching these episodes - in the mood I am about the show - makes me dislike the character Max has evolved into so much more! IF he wasn't acting under Tess' "spell" and mindwarp, than he is a jerk (sorry to all you Max lover - cuz I did and still do adore Max of past) - his actions to Liz and Iz are so deplorable - and I will not accept Liz jumping back into a relationship with Max in Season 3 without some extensive apologies, groveling, tears, talk, etc. on Max's part. I think all the aliens owe the humans - Liz especially - an apology!

That phrase "the point of culmination" just cracks me up! Who wrote this stuff! Have you every heard a teenage boy (alien or not - and I've met a few that could pass as aliens!) call orgasm "point of culmination"?

Oh - and that baby's hand on Tess' stomach in the pod chamber - after - let's see 24 -48 hours of being pregnant (and being able to tell it is a boy) - again don't make me Laugh! The Science Fiction of this is so ridiculous! At this rate - Tess would have a monster-sized baby in her little tummy by a month's time!

Okay - I do have to work - though I'm running Roswell episodes in the bakground today.

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Did anyone read my theory on why I think Tess was going to do with the translation? If not then I can write it again. I would really appreciate some comments on it.

VenusStar

And I love the idea that security cameras - which play into the OTM storyline - are ultimately important in showing that Max and Tess were NOT in the Observatory having Tex!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Cantbehrit--I also have to add the fact that why was Sean left so mysteriously with all his memories of OTM in tact when Amy's were erased?

Zero---I hated the writing of BIY totally of course in saying that I suppose this will be the writer next season they invite back LOL!!! I saw her listed as an EXEC PRODUCER on one of the later episodes arrrggghhh!!!! The writer was Lisa Klink---that whole guinea pig and snow-----blah----well it was out there and not very convincing to me--and I don't know any teenage boys who would use the term point of culmination either--so ridiculous!!!!! And of course I also agree with you about dragging out this sex and baby storyline I feel is an incredible mistake and will cost the show greatly with viewers---I am not sure I could hang on any longer myself----and where is c mccoy now? We have some questions for you LOL??????

And that’s why if someone says to me: David Lynch? My answer is: No thanks.

Shapeshifter [Quote Great stuff!] And thanks for mentioning my English. But I do love the way you all write on the board. I wish I could understand everything. But that, again, is Science Fiction . Elena

Yes who was it who first noticed the shadowy figure--this was a major catch I thought too, when I went back I could see it clearly but didn't notice it originally?????

I also agree with you about the cameras in the obervatory---was this Melodious or Tasyfa or both who first came up with this--the only thing is that I don't like the idea of Liz reviewing the tape for this evidence---that has a big EEEEWWWWW FACTOR although it might expose this charade!!!!

VenusStar

Okay here is something else that has me wondering about Alex and he being chosen--remember back in Season1--in the episode CRAZY---when AGENT PIERCE comes along in the car----First we see Alex walking(he walks past an AUTO PARTS sign(now think of Sean inviting Liz to the AUTO SHOW hmm??) The car pulls up and Pierce wants Alex to get in the car?----Why did he want Alex--was it for the same reason Tess used Alex because they knew that Alex had this capability of translating the DB? We know Pierce wanted to know how the orbs worked--he was anxious and desperate for information---was Pierce some type of alien--his quickness getting up off the floor made us believe he could be----but his bones tell us NO???????But maybe there are aliens out there that have bones just like the PODSTERS do-----maybe they were created with Blue Crystals???

Tasyfa on the cherishing thread held a discussion about the impact of the embrace Max/Liz share in the conclusion of Leaving Normal. Liz says once you leave normal, you can never return, and the two of the embody the Swirl symbol for the first time. It's the screen cap we use in the intro of this thread.

The thing is, when Max's arms encircle Liz in the conclusion of Departure, I didn't feel the impact. Was it just me? I felt like Liz was still shaking inside. Only hours before she had said "Max Evans has broken my heart" and now a peck on the forehead and some kind words are not going to be enough to restore the balance inside her. Max is going to have to take his healing powers to a higher level in order to treat this particular wound.

Here is my point: at this time, LIZ IS MORE COMFORTABLE WITH SEAN. She laughs, plays, breathes and is her happy self in his presence. I realize she has said he is the least deep person she knows, but maybe that's a welcome alternative to Mr. Deep and Serious Max Evans who hurt her. Sometimes it feels good to talk about polar bears and earrings.

Do you remember the scene in the bowling alley? Liz twirls and pirouettes in slow motion and she says she is growing and breathing. If the camera had focused on her from above rather than the side, she would resemble the Swirl symbol ALL by herself. Is this what she's growing into? Is this what Sean is helping her to do? It is shortly after this scene that we see her rise to a new level of leadership and take charge like she's never done before.

At this time, Liz is closer to Sean than to anyone else. He has never let her down. Again and again she runs to him in her darkest and most desperate hour (after the prom for one, and after Max gives her the pendant for another.) I think maybe we've underestimated the importance of this relationship to Liz. When she cries to Max "I saved myself for you" I thought that was kind of odd. But now I'm thinking if Sean really helped her feel "Free" then maybe she was more tempted by him than I'd originally realized.

Please don't misunderstand. I don't for one minute believe Liz could choose Sean to be her eternal mate or lover. But I do think she needs him right now. It is only to him that she reveals the depth of her pain when she realizes Max has broken her heart. If the growing she is doing helps her personify leadership than that brings her closer to being the royal queen (sorry shapeshifter, I had to revert back to midieval romantic devices!) Then I see Sean's role as her first knight. He loves her, protects her, honors her and would never take advantage of her. Can we all say "Lancelot"? But I believe Liz is stronger than Guenevere, so Antar will not fall as a result of a Sean/Liz trist. Hear, hear!

And he is her protector. That's very clear in OTM. He has the means to look out for her while Max is both physically and figuratively too tied up with Tess.

The granolith swirled and shot off to great heights. Likewise, Liz went from swirling in the bowling alley to new heights of leadership. If this is at least in part due to Sean's guidance, we have another scenerio that couldn't have taken place without EOTW.

When I wrote this the first or second time, it was much more coherent. So frustrating.

Anyway, Melodious, I have to disagree with you regarding Sean being Khivar. He is much too important to Liz. The only being in this universe who he could also be is Zan, as Evid, Zero and I have speculated in the past. But I'm not going there now.

If Max needed to delve into his alien side, well, apparently Liz too needed to do some delving. Now they're coming from opposite directions, and that's where S2 leaves us.

Whew. My longest post ever. -HH

It appears as if you all have been very busy and unfortunately, I don't have ANY free time these days. Just wanted to check in though. Happy Mything..

...If the growing she is doing helps her personify leadership than that brings her closer to being the royal queen (sorry shapeshifter, I had to revert back to midieval romantic devices!) Then I see Sean's role as her first knight. He loves her, protects her, honors her and would never take advantage of her. Can we all say "Lancelot"? But I believe Liz is stronger than Guenevere, so Antar will not fall as a result of a Sean/Liz trist. ...haniczka,
Ugh. I'm afraid you are absolutely right in where they're going with the Sean thing next Season. Your whole post it totally supported by what we have seen. Oh well, I don't mind watching them writing with mustard and dancing in bowling alleys, but I don't want Max running around with someone else to comfort himself. He needs to be celebate for awhile. And Liz must stay the Virgin Queen if she is not going to be with Max.

And as much as I dislike the midieval politics of Antar on the show, I am quite intrigued with the King Arthur symbolism as it is found in Roswell, and your post in particular. Kennedy's presidency has been called a "Camelot," but there were no overt Kings and Destinies. I guess I just wish Roswell would tone down the royal stuff. Like maybe they could find out that they really aren't Kings and Queens, but that there was no earthly translation for their complex form of government. Early Star Trek not only reflected the Civil Rights Movement of its day with it's diverse aliens, but took it to another level. I would like to see Roswell go beyond too (where no show has ever gone before? ), maybe by examining socio-economic barriers.

But I'm more tolerant of fantasy romance. For instance, I wouldn't mind Sean's earing being an indication that Dupe Zan is still alive but minus a body, and so Sean has invited him in to his own body as a roommate.

the "title" to the destiny book is in the upper left corner of the cave map!

AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH....... <Reggie departs, screaming. He will be back shortly...>

Why didn't I see this before? I've done a screencap of that very title!

Very well done, DAH!

Maybe Tess had another reason to kill off Alex. She is so dead set on the destiny thing that maybe she killed Alex cuz him and Isabel were getting closer.. and she did it to hurt her and make her go crying back to Michael.

Also the only similarity ive noticed is in I think the prom episode where Liz was spinning.. She did the same thing with Future Max in The End of the World. So maybe you guys can figure out a connection?

Anyways I should go -- keep those theeories coming!!

~* Jessica *~

I just had to bid my Liz Mythers and RBIs farewell (hopefully temporarily). When S3 comes rolling closer to fruition, I'll hopefully be able to join back in on the discussion. However, until that time (and if I haven't gone completely nuts)... take care y'all!

Melodious

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Zero, I think I totally understand how you feel. If it's any consolation, I've found by focusing on things that are facts in front of me, it helps rather than driving myself crazy with speculation. I, too was finding myself beginning to chant. Anyway, it's a show and we do have real lives. Happy June to all mythers! -HH

I felt no impact either. I was just wondering what everyone else thought of the look on Liz's face at the end when they were hugging. I don't think Liz looked happy and accepting of Max or the situation at all. She looked a little sad if you ask me. Anyone else get that impression? I don't think Liz is going to take Max back so easily, however I hope it's not something that happens over the summer and we just hear tidbits about what happened over the summer but never actually see anything. What's that called? I forget.

Mel, I've been a lurker of this thread since the beginning of S2 and I have really enjoyed your posts. Hope to be reading more come fall. REALLY! Because that would mean that S3 is looking up. I too am rather annoyed with the direction the show has taken.

All Liz was doing was listening to him. I don't know but although I like the words he said I didn't really like the situation so the words, didn't seem to be all that significant.

Then the end line "we have to save my son" ok...yuk. That was just annoying and stupid.

But ITA that Liz wasn't feeling it...she looked very sad. Unfortunately there wasn't enough air time for her to respond, that's why I think her look said it all.

Mel - I too will miss your posts! You totally got me into so many theories!! But I understand about it over running your life...I've been on most of the day & that is so not good!

Cantbehrit

But I still have a tape for you!!! Metaphysicalgrl loved the tape I sent her and I am sure you will too!

email me nimedeus@aol.com

Yea, what was that all about. I guess they wanted us to see Tess say, "You kissed Liz? Don't worry, you won't remember her ..." Very lame though on the writers' part, just so that we would have another glimps of Tess being nasty. If that is what they were going for, they should have figured something else out to do, like Tess asking Max where he was and him being honest and saying he was saying goodbye to Liz and then Tess could have said that line. Come on writers, CHARACTER CONTINUITY!!! Max never would have kissed Tess after just kissing Liz and crying and feeling so emotional about her.

Also, do you think Liz is more upset about the Tex or about Max supposedly loving Tess? When Liz asks Max if he loves Tess, he says not the way I love you. Implying he does love her. That would upset me more. Which do you think Liz needs to address more, the love or the Tex?

I think what GraceKel means is she would rather have had Liz (et al.) go into the pod chamber, reveal Tess as the traitor and when everyone left the chamber (except Max and Tess), have Liz leave the area completely. Then when Max comes out after sending Tess off, ask "where's Liz" and Maria reply "oh, she left".

And then he could have said in answer to Isabel's question "I have to kiss Liz's a$$ in order to win her back so that my balance can be restored" and then as an afterthought add in the find my son crappola.

Considering Tess words "why couldn't you ever feel that way about me...." I agree with Starbox it sounds like he never did love her but she tricked him with false memories? But yes I think through Departure he thought he had feelings for Tess-----YUK!!!!

I agree. I think she was waiting for reassurance from him. Especially with what she wrote on her prom card (in blue ink).

(Edited because I can't spell.)

P.S. Mel, go with a clear conscience; you've done your part! See you in a couple of months!

Just posting so I can see what my new aviator looks like, my son just made it for me. I think he did an amazing job, don't you think?

Evid

And I noticed that when Maria is telling Michael the story of her Get-Outta-Roswell fantasy, she says that she imagines her father coming and taking them somewhere where they will live like royalty.