shapeshifter is emmissarying here (please don't ask how, you don't want to know, trust me ) to tell you who are obsessed to go to http://ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology to read past Liz's Importance Threads.
Right now, the last one is still at http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/008217.html , and the one before that is at http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/008020.html . Now, back to Zero...

There is never a dull moment on this thread – especially recently! We appreciate the new episodes to digest – especially with the refocus on Liz’s importance to the storyline! (Thank you JK and RM! ) Even though Heart of Mine, Cry Your Name, It’s Too Late & It’s Too Bad, Baby It’s You, Off The Menu and Departure have many inducing scenes, we have been provided tons of stuff to chat about and dissect! !! Plus – we have seen so many newbies joining into the discussion - which is wonderful!

Feedback is always welcome! Just PM me. I will let you know when I up-date the Introduction so you can head over there to read the new information when I add it in.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Background

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY!

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz's importance to the pod squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! (Especially lately!) We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember – NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome!

Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection

Consequence of the Connection - the Change?

Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really?

Granolith - How does it fit in?

Destiny - Liz and Max!

Follow Your Heart

Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

Chakras

Einstein's Light Cone

Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV

The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up!

The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things?

The Catalyst - Liz!

Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in?

Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run"

Hero Journey - Liz's Path

I wanted to add that I believe the events of the last few episodes (especially, HOM, CYN and ITL&ITB, and some of OTM and Departure) play right into Liz’s Hero Journey!

Grandma Claudia - the first connection?

I just wanted to add here that many of us believe the fact that the necklace Liz wore to the Prom had been Grandma Claudia’s is VERY SIGNIFICANT! Finally, a tie into GC, her Native American connection and Season 1! Now – if we could only figure out “what” the necklace was! Maybe this was a foreshadowing that GC will be the connection to the aliens that we always thought she was/is! And the computer guys from the UNM commenting that the alien symbols look Native American in origin – with Michael getting Season 1 flashbacks – was GREAT! But – unfortunately, we are going to have to wait until Season 3 to see if this all plays out!

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Don’t let the current state of affairs (pun intended!) concern you – Liz and Max are soulmates and lifebond! The Truth Is Out There! And Liz will find it! (Even Maria agrees with that!) And though Liz did figure it all out in time to “save the day” for the Pod Squad – the question of whether Max’s actions irreparably damaged their connection is still hanging out there – and how will Liz deal with not only the revelation that Max had a relationship with Tess, but that there is a baby out there that is the product of that relationship? Talk about bad choices!

Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection?

Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars!

Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Numbers keep cropping up that seem to fall into our 2, 3, 4, 5 groupings. Like the bus that Liz misses is 33_5, the bowling alley lane is 32, Max remembers 3 moons, Alex’s funeral and the concert is on 5/5 and the song at the end of Cry Your Name mentions the number 3! Also, the truck driver had 1 drink, 3 hours before! There is no way that this is just a coincidence! I will try to add as many of the numbers caught to the Intro that I can – but let’s just say that there has to be a meaning to the reoccurrence of the numbers – especially 5! Liz’s cell number is 505-555-0125! (and as Qfanny so intelligently pointed out .125 =1/8th – Ummm…! In BIY – Iz runs “5 or 6” miles now? And “Ray” was seen by his roommate at 4 am, they were the only 2 people around and they were only 5 feet away from each other. Alex’s dorm at UNM was in “Quad 4.” In Departure, the number 67 is prominent in Kyle’s room – any reference to the fact that after Alex’s death, there were 7 Scooby’s, but with Tess’ betrayal, there were actually only 6 true members of the Scooby Gang?

Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz?

Skins - What lies below the surface?

We keep wondering where Nicko disappeared to – and Lonnie, Rath and Ava for that matter. Is it just a matter of time before Kivar shows up? Many of us thought that Tess was up to her “old” tricks of mindwarping – or mind control as Liz so aptly asked about – but was Tess acting alone? Most of us think not! Tess’ actions were the result of a deal Harding made with Kivar 40 years ago, but they also resulted in the death of Alex. But why did she feel she needed to warp Alex into deciphering the book? I still believe there is more to it because of the elaborateness of the deception! And, was the sex/baby real? All indications point to it, BUT the mind control and the power of illusion could play in it all be a hoax to convince the Pod Squad they had to go home, and Tess ultimate “card” to convince Max to let her go without being harmed.

Shapeshifters - Are there more than one?

Remember – Harding and Nasedo and Tic Tac are NOT all one and the same shapeshifter! I still believe that Tic Tac is out there watching over Liz!

Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation

Mythology!

Dates

Dates seem to be of extreme interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research. If you find a date I’ve missed or see one that is wrong – PM me with the change and where you got your information! I’m always looking for new dates!

New dates added include:

6/21/1084 – Alex’s Birthdate listed on his grave stone (Departure)
1994 – Date the building in the Leanna and Alex picture was torn down (ITLITB)
12/9/2000 – Alex’s Departure for Sweden (ITLITB)
1/16/2001 – Date Leanna computer file/document created by Alex (ITLITB)
1/18/2001 – Date Alex and Leanna were supposed to be traveling to the Baltic Islands – where the mysterious building supposedly existed (ITLITB)
1/28/2001 – Alex’s Return from Sweden date (ITLITB)
4/27/2001 – Roswell Prom & Date Liz begins to start writing in her Journal again. (Heart of Mine)
4/29/2001 – Alex date of death listed on his grave stone (Departure)
5/3/2001 – Alex is killed. (Cry Your Name)
5/4/2001 – Kyle’s Birthday (18th?) (Cry Your Name)
5/5/2001 – Alex Whitman’s funeral (Cry Your Name)

In Summary

Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff, crew or UPN reads this or the Intro), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!"

To have the opportunity for a Season 3 on UPN is WONDERFUL, and this show has the potential to be another “X-files” with intimate relationships IF done right! BUT PLEASE – Get rid of the “90210” storylines – if we want a soap opera, we will turn on “Days of Our Lives”!

A couple of general "rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed – I can’t emphasize this enough as we move towards the season finale), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions/preview and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. If you know what a preview “really means” due to spoilers, please DON’T tell us – let us speculate – we will find out soon enough! And discussion of the new book “Loose Ends” is now okay that the season is over – though you might hold some stuff back for those of us who still have to read it! Thanks!

As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz whose life ended too soon - said - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)! Liz found the TRUTH, and will avenge his death! (Tess – beware – you have no idea what you have released in the B*#@h!

Zero
I Shall Believe!!
FAN!

a lot of men are interested in politics. his dad is a lawyer. plus i'd be interested too if my wife/husband told me he/she watched someone on tv talk about politics naked lol

Nice observation on Mr. Evans and the mustard, however, as an asian I would like to point out that Chinese Mustard isn't actually Hot nor Spicy. It's Dried Yellow Mustard mixed with water and soy sauce (which is what appeared to be in the small mustard take out containers Isabel grabbed from the fridge). It's more pungent, to describe the potent bitter taste, which people react to as strong rather than actually Hot like a chili pepper.
Thai food and Pepperjack are HOT in taste like Tabasco sauce because these foods actually contain chili peppers. Thus Alex craving Thai, Brody craving Pepperjack and ofcourse the Aliens craving Tabasco. If any of the human characters start craving Mexican, Korean or Vietnamese (all of which use chili peppers in their dishes) then I would take that as a dead give away of some sort of alien link.

**********
Hoku

..., have we discussed about why the podsters have to rely on tabasco on their food ?

Shapeshifter, I'm afraid I repelled people with my Sean post and that wasn't my intention. I don't see it as bad news.

GraceKel, if the writers had made Max and Liz joyfully, compassionately unified with fireworks and music, well, I would have been more turned off by that. I can't stand cheesy Hollywood endings that feel tacked on at the end. All I was trying to do with that "impact" introduction was make certain people realized I'm a DIE-HARD dreamer who sees Sean as being vital to the story.

Oh, and shapeshifter, I think you're a riot: no old-fashioned midieval tyrannies, as long as the VIRGIN queen is left in tact!!! Don't worry, I share your view completely, but with a smile on my face! Maybe the show could move into a more democratic direction with the table discussions and the neighboring principalities. Hmmmm.

I feel like I'm in a minority right now, (which I'm probably not,) but I have faith the writers of Roswell know what they're doing. They have the perfect opportunity this fall to show us just that. If Max and Liz were now just going to live happily ever after, well, what the heck would fill the next 22 episodes? To hold our interest, they've got to keep the attraction there accompanied by obstacles for our beloved characters to overcome. Now that they have time to resolve the CHADs and continuity issues, let's give them a chance.

Reggie, if you have recovered from your recent shock, I wanted to agree with you about Alex being afflicted by the hand of Nicko while in Sweden. It would explain a lot. His running to the door with a baseball bat (which I had forgotten until Melodious pointed it out) would be more explainable if awaiting Nicko rather than Tess. And he definitely could have some Nicko-attitude. Furthermore, Isabel could be potentially attracted to something about Nicko since he and Lonnie clearly had some history.

Lastly, Qfanny, I've been wanting to respond to your dismay regarding Maria. I too am perplexed by the direction her character has taken. It was especially strange to me when Michael told her he was leaving in the morning, and she just sighs into his sholder. The Maria I thought I knew would have sat up and begun pelting him with pillows. Remember that hilarious scene with Max in the early season when she picks up a book and begins pounding him with it saying "I don't know what you're talking about?" Tasyfa pointed out Michael and Max have switched roles right now, with Michael being the together supportive one. But a quiet-supportive Maria doesn't feel right. Maybe she'll fall in love with Isabel. Some asked Kevin Brown in the Crashdown interview if Is. could go in that direction....OKAY, I'm kidding. But again, let's try to have faith that we'll get her back because I agree with you, she's too talented to be turned into a "yes dear" turtle dove. -HH

And maybe I'm way too into the clues, but it seemed to me that he really zeroed in on the politics and ignored the naked part, which seemed atypical for a man.

haniczka, I think people get upset about our predictions (i. e. Sean as Lancelot) because the writers might just use them. The one that really bothers me is that Zero (as did others) said repeatedly that if Max & Tess had Tex, she'd quit watching. I can't help but wonder if they didn't read that and decide they just had to push the envelope.

BTW, we used to speculate quite a bit on this thread that Mr. Evans had an alien connection that led him to pick up Max & Isabel in the desert.

I only have a minute before I have to leave for an all-day meeting, but I wanted to admit that I have been a bit negative and that I did say that I would stop watching if Max had Tex. BUT as an eternal optimist, I have hope that Season 3 will be better written and more cohesive storywise. The Tex still drives me to want to stop watching, but I still have hope that there is more to it and that all the clues re: mindwarp/control, etc. aren't for not! So - I will be around for at least awhile! Plus - you all are so fun to hang out with! (Even if the writers have no clue that they are leaving so many clues around for us! )

Most of JK's episodes I have loved. And I loved TEOTW, too! I was wonderfully written. It is just that there was SO MUCH discontinuity (is that a word?) this season, and being a huge Liz fan, the abuse she suffered her charactered suffered was so dragged out and a bit much. Plus, the whole Tex/baby came out of left field given the prior 2/3rds of the Season. Poor writing! Finally, as a consumer - I just have NO Interest in watching Max's quest for his son and Liz tagging along. The storyline does not interest me in the least. BUT, I have hope - like I said before - that there is more to it, and that better writing and a secure season will lead to a better overall storyline and season! I have hope - and know there is plenty of potential! So - I'm still here, and not going anywhere soon! Plus, I'm going to LA to celebrate!

PS - Welcome Newbies!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Re: Maria's reaction when Michael said he was leaving. I got the impression that she was nodding in confirmation to herself. She knew SOMETHING was up the second she walked through the door, and I think she knew what it was that Michael had to tell her--or had an idea, a couple of possibilities, and that was one. Then when he finally said that he was leaving, she nodded to herself. They'd had the discussion already in ITLITB; I think Maria had resigned herself to it. She probably didn't expect to ever get called on it, but she did, and I thought her reaction exemplified that resignation.
~Tas

HH~
I agree with you. I really do have faith in the writers to do something amazing again. I'm reserving all judgement for a while. Obviously, not everything was resolved at the end of Departure, but that doesn't mean they're just going to ignore it all when S3 rolls around! So I'm just waiting impatiently for my tapes of S1 and to watch S3.

And althought I'm on the fence about Sean, I would like to see him back next season because either way he goes, he'll be great at it.

Shapeshifter~
It would be really neat if Mr. Evans was somehow alien-connected. What if he was being emissaried by Kvar? Ack!

Mel~
You probably won't get to read this, but I'll really miss you. You always put my ideas into much better words than I did! I can't wait to see you back for Season 3. Till then, rest your brain, and stay away from Thai food

z.a.
*Dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

Okay everyone is talking a lot about the writing being bad and about the storyline having a lot of holes these days, and I dont entirely disagree. However, I think that just makes me want to watch more. I want to see whats going to happen next more than anything in hopes that things will get explained or fixed. Someone a little while back posted that it was a lot like a scifi book series in that there is always one book (usually the 2nd one) that sucks really bad and that it sucks so much because its purpose is to just basically set things up for the later books. I'm thinking thats what season 2 was all about :-) Now once things start happening next year we will have a lot of scifi knowlege and a lot of background to remember. Now about Mr. Evans being an alien. That would actually make sense. One would think that 'they' would want their royals to be raised right and to be protected in their youth and so they wouldnt want them raised by just anybody (like Michael ended up with a loser dad). So Mr. Evans was planned.....that makes sense.

The only thing is, what about the baby being fake then? Why would she tell Max she was pregnant if her goal was to get him to sleep with her for real? Well, one possibility is that she just happened to think of the baby idea while looking into her mirror the morning after, and immediately decided that it was an even better plan. Of course, this plays into my whole theory that there IS no Nasedo/Khivar deal--I do not believe that one for a second, I think she was just deflecting blame so that Max didn't smoke her.

What do you guys think? We need to work on the baby part a little, but I think this is a GREAT reason to explain the Tex as being a mindwarp! Otherwise, it never really made sense to me why it would be fake, when she could just as easily control his body and make it real. But this way, Tess is basically trying to have her cake and eat it too. It plays into her vanity about wanting Max to come to her for real, to sleep with her b/c he wants to, and also sets him up in such a fashion that that is actually possible.

Thoughts? Rebuttals? Reactions, please!
~Tas

Akasha24

I'm sooooo sorry for throwing out an idea that came to me and then just leaving you guys discuss it, but I had to leave town for the weekend, and then when I came back, my family seemed to want my attention. Go figure!!

Anyways, thanks to you all who dissected my "Alex may be the father" speculation. I actually haven't caught up and read the 8-9 pages yet (and may not have time to), but I do know that ELENAC questioned it a bit!!

I'm not thinking Tess as being truly evil, just selfish in a way that all she wants is to go home!! When she and Nacedo first appeared, she didn't care that Max and Liz were an item, she made him think things in a very sexual way about her. She didn't care that Liz may be in danger (MTTM). She smirked when Liz left Max on the cliff, knowing that Max would have been upset!! Whether people want to believe that Tess was the one responsible for having Max alienated from the rest of the group (I believe she had help) or not, she took advantage of him, nevertheless. She had Tex with him when he was at his lowest!! To me --- that makes her capable of ANYTHING!!

Not only had she had access to Kyle, but Alex as well. We know that Alex went to her saying she MW'ed him. Tess, in fact, admitted as much -- for what, I'm not so sure!!. . . . "I have nothing" - as in erased. The Sweden trip should have been IMPLANTED memories, why would his mind have NOTHING??

I don't know, anymore. For all we know, the "baby" in question could be a MW.

All I know is, like Melodious, I'm getting frustrated at all the different angles they could go with this. To me, all evidence points to the fact that Tess MW'ed Max - is the Tex real? - is the baby real? - or will they play this for the real mccoy??

OT -- with regards to the writers: I'm hopeful that they came to their senses and realized how important Shiri/Liz is to the series. Since WAF, we have seen more of her than the first half of S2, but we also have been shown that Liz is the intelligent one, the IMPORTANT one throughout the bunch. Hopefully, S3 will play into OUR hands a bit and reveal more to the audience how IMPORTANT she really is.

Just a little spec again: I'm thinking the Tess/Ava switch concept is very plausible. Then, I got to wondering about Ava. We really never seen any of her powers, now did we?? Could she be the DNA donor for Tess? I think it was PALOMINO (sp?? sorry) who came up with the idea that Nacedo could be a DOUBLE AGENT. Could it be possible that he hid the bride's essence in a human baby (SH's) . . . (a different approach than the other three) knowing full well that Zan would recognize his love anywhere, but the enemy wouldn't have a clue?? Maybe the leaky pod wasn't done by the soldiers (IMHO, they would have been scared to do anything with it), but by the glowies extracting the essence. SH's baby, being the complete anti-thesis of Tess's features, would be a great cover. The time till they were all born helped with the cover from the enemies. Nobody, but Nacedo, and possibly the other glowey, knows this -- not even Tess.

OH . . . I don't know!! I'm thinking of re-watching Crazy and on, and going with the facts that they gave us from Departure. IMHO, the writers are telling their story through the characters to confirm some of the mysteries regarding Tess/Nacedo. Knowing what Tess admitted to Max at the end may help view the Tess episodes to get more concrete clues. The last six episodes of S1 will be enjoyable, but I'm dreading having to watch S2.

Long time no see :waving: - sorry about my dissapearance - I had to take some time to recover from my dissapointment over the seemingly endless plot inconsistency in the finale. BUT - I will not rant about my long laundry list of "issues" - mainly revolving around EOTW and my new conviction that future Liz made a VERY bad call with the plan to save the world. Beacuse without EOTW we had Alex, they still had the granolith and there was no TEX and no baby. Okay - so the world ended - but seems that there could have been a better plan. In a way - everything ends up being Liz's fault - as the FMax plan was HER idea. So - I think - she should be able to forgive the TEX since - in effect - Future Liz is the one that decided to push Max towards Tess

Okay - so now I am moving on

In my timeoff - I have come to two conclusions -

Fist is that the son is going to show up as a teenager and we will have a new triangle.

Second is that the character of Tess HAD to be in love with someone in the enemy camp (Nicolas??? Khivar???) - I say this because of the fact that she appeared to be remorseful in the finale - yet she was STILL going through with the plan to kill the podsters. The plan was ALWAYS to kill the podsters. She NEVER wanted Max to love her - the minute he left Liz behind is the minute she moved towards his betrayal and murder. YET - she did seem to have some regrets.
So - how could this be??? I think she had to have been acting out of a greater loyalty.
Think about Susan Smith - what allowed her to kill her babies - which she appeared to fel GENUINE remorse/grief for? She wasnt feuled by hate or *evil* intent - she was fueled by what she PERCIEVED as being a *greater* loyalty - to her lover.
I think Tess is much the same - her betaryal/intended murder of the podsters was not being fueled by absolute evil - she had gotten to know them & I believe she felt bad about what she was doing. She HAD to have been motivated by a greater loyalty - a greater love.
"For your GREAT LOVE you betrayed EVERYONE"

I will be working on the final Season 2 version of the image gallery and hope to have it up by Saturday.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Kyle - His mind and body are in deep conflict. When one's heart and one's mind are not in balance, one's body is the first to fail. from ARCC

He's talking about the sports guy on TV but this relates perfectly to Max and what he was going through. Because later when Liz makes Max think she has "been with" Kyle then Max's mind says to him "she's not who I thought she was" but his heart says "no she is the one" and now he's all off balance and all screwed up and it only makes sense that he will fall. I really feel that TEOTW thing was obviously a really bad thing. Liz's actions caused nothing but negative things to happen. I dont think that it was a mindwarp but I do think that it was something that happened as a result of another kind of trick of an enemy that maybe they didnt know was an enemy. (TESS?) but now they know she is an enemy but now its too late? or is it? Geez I dont know. Sorry for rambling.

Why would she then pretend that the baby could not survive on Earth? They would have left before Max actually did sleep with her a for real.

cristalyn Excellent point about Max's body failing him b/c his mind and heart were in deep conflict. Add in the physical effects of the V constellation to his general confusion and vulnerability, and we have Max, the stationary target
~Tas

Now I would love to believe that Sean was brought in TO SERVE and PROTECT LIZ----I would LOVE that---but I also have to wonder if they decided they made Tess evil ways too obvious in TLV in season1 and have decided to totally shock us with someone who comes in sweet to begin with and WATCH OUT!!!!

I simply don't know-I think this can go either way.

Or it could simply be like Shapeshifter says that Sean is just Maria's lovable loser cousin Sean who was offered a deal to get out of jail early to spy on the GANG???? This certainly works too, and Sean could simply be smitten with Liz--something he didn't expect!!!!

My lack of enthusiasm for Season2 has little to do with Liz and Max not being a couple really-since I totally expected that for a good deal of the season--I am sorry if you misunderstand my feelings on this subject.

Fist is that the son is going to show up as a teenager and we will have a new triangle.

Oh please no!!! Triangle among the son and whom? PLEASE NO MORE TRIANGLES!!!

I also agree with QFANNY that Maria was warm and wacky last season, this season they have turned her too much into MS SMARTY PANTS--especially in the HYBRID CHRONICLES---that whole I won't take Laurie to potty thing bugged me--and her lack of compassion for a girl who was obviously crazy with fear.
I also didn't like Maria's lack of reaction about FM coming to Liz (the whole scene at the water fountain)--I thought Maria was very oh....la di da....(writers fault here I am saying)

Just so you all won't think I am just picking on Maria--Liz my fav also disappointed me when she said to Maria in Meet the Dupes "would you just get over it" when Maria was questioning her about kissing Rath when she thought it was Michael----huh!!!!!!! I was like totally dumbfounded by this whole thing.

Well - as much as I hate to say it - I really expect to see the son brought in used by Tess/Khivar as a way to get to Liz Parker. I think they know Liz is the key - which is why - as much as Tess obviously hated Liz - she never tried to harm her - also - why Nasedo saved Liz from the FBI.
The son will be their weapon to try to get control of Liz - and since the son will have part of Max - she will probably be drawn to him whether she wants to be or not.

I may be wrong - I would to be wrong - but I can totally see the WHOLE reason behind the creation of the son being that TPTB needed to create the plot device of him to be Max's rival in EVERY way. Tess never craeted a really credible triangle - but I can toatlly see this character as being a very real threat to Max and Liz. And I can totally see Tess/Khivar wanting to use him to bring Max down. Its so archetypal. Didnt Heathcliff do this in Wuthering Heights????

I dont think that this "child" is ever going to be a baby. That would just be such a mess. Its a show about young adults - not about parenthood.
Nope - the son's essence got pulled from the womb and was transferred into young adult - and that young adult is going to be a great plot device for TBTP to use for character driven sci-fi.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I don’t think Tess loved Max at all and could care less if he loved or wanted her. She just seemed too analytical to me. I think she loved the idea of being a queen on another planet and wanted to get back to that planet. Regardless of whether Nasedo made a deal or not, I think this was Tess' way of getting to Antar. That's been her obvious goal since she came on the scene. And in order for her to be safe on Antar, I think she had to have had some ally waiting for her on Antar. Probably Kivar. Maybe Larek. I don't accept him at face value, although I do like Brody.

I'm also open to the theory floating around that Tess was one of the NY group and Ava was supposed to be a part of the NM group. Ava definitely would have fit in better there. However, if Ava comes back to NM and they accept her, won't Max and Liz be in the same situation as before, i.e., Ava is his wife, he is destined to be with her, blah, blah, blah (althought the destiny is probably something Tess created). But Liz did have a problem with the fact that Max was supposedly married to Tess/Ava. So it still could get in the way. However, from Ava's reaction to Liz telling her that Max healed her, I definitely think she knows something about Liz that no one else knows and if she did come back, it would be different because Ava would know that Liz is meant to be with Max because (I would like to think) of a prophecy.

quote:Of course, this plays into my whole theory that there IS no Nasedo/Khivar deal--I do not believe that one for a second, I think she was just deflecting blame so that Max didn't smoke her.

Actually, Max was ready to smoke her even though the deal was something Nasedo supposedly cooked up (no pun intended ). It was the pregnancy that saved her.

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
In my timeoff - I have come to two conclusions -
Fist is that the son is going to show up as a teenager and we will have a new triangle.

Originally posted by Essence:
Oh please no!!! Triangle among the son and whom? PLEASE NO MORE TRIANGLES!!!

I'm laughing because I thought Ooo, yea, and Teenage Max could be emissaried by Kvar!
Don't look, Essence, avert your eyes from my ish post!

StarBox, welcome back, and tp too! . ITA with both of you that Tess has complex motives, feelings, and loyalties. I'm now thinking that back on Old Antar, Vilondra was duped into betraying everyone by Tess, who was Kvar's True Lover, and whose mission was to bring back the Royal babe in her new body. I also think that the Granolith will be traveling back in time when it gets to Antar, hence the presence of Midieval-styled politics.

quote:Originally posted by cristalyn:
...Kyle - His mind and body are in deep conflict. When one's heart and one's mind are not in balance, one's body is the first to fail.....ITA, cristalyn, that is sooo Max. I'd say since the Mommogram his heart and mind and Liz's too have been "in deep conflict." So then, can we cut her some slack for making a less than perfect call on the fake Kyle sex thing? Anyway, my own life has had some real valleys where I deeply regretted my own decisions, but when things worked out later, I can usually see some greater good that came because of (or in spite of) the bad choice made with good intentions but poor information. I think this might be one of JK's messages.

GraceKel! Ah! Good! You're seriously considering my Sean as spy theory. Today: GraceKel; tomorrow: JK and the World!
Seriously, about the "happy ending;" it was pointed out on the CHADS thread that Liz has her eyes open in the end embrace, which is a sign that she is not happy with the situation.

Welcome, Akasha24!

I do have faith in the writers... And on that same coin, if have faith in the fans. Particularly, the Liz Myth fans seem to take whatever issue and spin a better light on it.

Remember during this last season when Tess didn't seem so bad. Well, the writers responded in favor to the RBI's observation, whatever Liz says is right. Liz said, "I don't trust her." And she was right. (BTW - is not and )

Now regarding Maria ~ here is a character that they really could do a lot with. Majandra's talents are going to waste. Frankly, she has become too wise cracking and smug. The seems to be little emotional attachment to the rest... Like she uses her jokes to distance herself. Where is the Maria from season one?

Parzival was only partially successful even though he healed the wounded Fisher King and the land, by finally asking the right (unselfish) question. Prior to this he circled the forest 'lost' for 5 years (almost as Max is lost).

Saw this over on the signs and symbols thread and I thought it was interesting. Maybe it is Max and Liz's baby are meant to be the new order.

There is a young man in Denmark with cancer that would like Shiri's autograph. I found a thread on Roswell 2 on it.

Here's the link:
http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum12/HTML/003628.html#4

I hope that someone that knows how to get in contact with Shiri would be kind enough to check that out.

Just a quick note...I really hope the writer's follow up with the Sheila Hubble story! There are soooo many things they need to touch on from Season 1. I'm almost up to that episode (I'm watching them all again).

I have a question though & I'm sure it was mentioned here. But in "Blood Brothers" didn't Max say to Tess, "Mrs. Harding is out today" talking about their teacher? Or did I get the name wrong?

Why all the common names??

Cantbehrit

GraceKel, I was afraid I came across wrong after I posted. I do remember exactly what you said about how you would have liked Max to emerge from the cave only to have found Liz's tracks (of course transportation may have been the only reason she stuck around: one Jetta). And when you posted your rant a few threads back, I could feel your pain. I've been there recently. I'm now trying to focus on what I can handle. I know that probably sounds really lame, and what I directed to you was every bit as much to ME. Now if when S3 comes I lose my faith, you'll be there for me, won't you?

I have only one conviction about the Tex. Only one. I read the interview with Kevin B. and he said the stories were written well in advance. I'm thinking when this storyline materialized, there was little talk of the "Buffy" politics brewing. All the writers knew was that they'd survived S1 by a thread and barely made it full season through S2. There was one thing on their minds and it WASN'T us; it was ratings. When main characters die, people tune in. When everyone's wondering whether or not they'll really DO IT, people tune in. I think our writers did what they thought it would take for Roswell's existence to continue: ratings, ratings, ratings. And it worked but to no avail.

But JOY, next year, they won't have to worry about that and this is why I'm so hopeful. If they were returning to the WB I'd be much more bitter. I personally am boycotting the WB. That's how angry I am for what THEY did to our show. On Antar, Tess duped Vilandra into betrayal and here on Earth, THEY duped our writers.

Before I bid you goodnight,
Here's a scene that doesn't exist: Liz turns to him and says "Do you remember the first time you let me see inside of you, so I could see if it was really you? Will you let me do that again, Max?" And he's going to be reluctant but agree. So the flash comes and she sees some horrible, painful stuff including the look on her own face when she said hurtful things, etc. When she comes near the suggestion of the Tex part, she has to break off the connection to throw up because the presence of the mind-warp in Max's head is so strong. And she'll know it wasn't real. -HH

I haven't had much time lately--only a chance here and there to skim all of your great theories! But I can offer one quick response:

quote:Originally posted by cantbehrit:
I have a question though & I'm sure it was mentioned here. But in "Blood Brothers" didn't Max say to Tess, "Mrs. Harding is out today" talking about their teacher? Or did I get the name wrong?

Why all the common names??

I found the following on Crashdown.com:
ROSWELL EPISODE #107 - "BLOOD BROTHERS"
=======================================
(In a hallway in school)

LIZ: What is it?

MAX: She's out.

LIZ: Who is?

MAX: Miss Hardy. She's absent. Stomach flu. And since we both have fifth period lunch, we have close to 2 hours off. LIZ: Well, we don't technically have fourth period off just because Miss Hardy's out.

MAX: There's something I want to show you.

LIZ: Ok, let's go.

(Max and Liz are cruising down a road)

Also, I was wondering where I could get more infomation about the symbols on the cave map, pentagon, destiny book, etc. Reggie seems to be the only one who took an interest in my finding that the "title" to the destiny book is in the upper left corner of the cave map! (See pics on Thread #45.) Was this already known to you expert mythologists? Where can I get more info on the analysis already done?

Thanks.

But we haven't gotten Season 2 wrapped up yet. Maybe you can help?

Haniczka---I waver back and forth, one day I feel hopeful and another day depressed, but I must say this thread has been a real SHOW SAVER for me--if it weren't for the Liz Mythers........I would be lost. All the clues people have found have given me hope. And lately its been the only hope I see.LOL!!! So I thank all my fellow Liz Mythers for that!!!

Hey Starbox, and your theory about the son of Max and Tess--who will this turn out to be, someone we have not seen yet or SEAN perhaps?????

DreameratHeart, I think we're all very interested in your discovery. My question in reaction to your post was: does this add authenticity to the DB? It makes me think, at the very least, Alex was researching something REAL and not a forgery.

Tas, okay, I'll try to think about the Tex even though it bothers me so much. I think SnowWhite's theory is possible: that Tess forced it the first time in hopes of Max "coming to his senses" and performing willingly the second time. The problem with all this (and the reason I don't like to talk about it because we can't find the answer on our own) is there's no way to know if she physically manipulated the act out of him like she made him kiss her in the rain, or if she implimented the experience in his mind the way she did in chemistry class. If he did the deed under the power of a mindwarp, the babe could still exist. There's the rub.

I want to find more evidence it was all a dream, like Liz telling him to WAKE UP and Nemo's reminder that it could all be a FALSE ALARM.

Oh, and lastly, I didn't take the "I have to save my son" line the same way a lot of you have expressed. I don't necessarily see S3 being all about the search for Junior. Rather I beleive we're supposed to contrast Max at the conclusion of Destiny and Departure and see that he is no longer hiding behind a tree, a man with no agenda. He has drive and determination. That's the symbolism of him in the center of the V and the expression of his mission. I'll BET you the writers won't even mention baby (or teenage )Junior for a very long time, just like we've never seen Howie from S1 again. But Max, like Liz, has grown into a leader.

And maybe he's a better leader thanks to EOTW because he's found the drive inside himself... -HH

ITA! I think this is why the symbolism connection meant so much to me. I never really thought Tess contrived the entire Destiny Book. That would be quite a complex feat. I think the book was always there, but Tess knew basically what it was about: how to get "home." She desperately wanted to go back to Antar, where she was a queen and where she had allies. She needed Alex's help as part of her "master plan" to get the details of *how* to use the equipment to get home. I'm very curious to know if pregnancy was part of the plan in the Destiny Book???

quote:Originally posted by haniczka:Oh, and lastly, I didn't take the "I have to save my son" line the same way a lot of you have expressed. I don't necessarily see S3 being all about the search for Junior. Rather I beleive we're supposed to contrast Max at the conclusion of Destiny and Departure and see that he is no longer hiding behind a tree, a man with no agenda. He has drive and determination. That's the symbolism of him in the center of the V and the expression of his mission. I'll BET you the writers won't even mention baby (or teenage )Junior for a very long time, just like we've never seen Howie from S1 again. But Max, like Liz, has grown into a leader.

And maybe he's a better leader thanks to EOTW because he's found the drive inside himself... -HH

I like this idea about Max. I, as well as many of you, do NOT want to see S3 as a long quest to find the missing "son." I hope that we see a stronger Max as he develops his leadership skills--along with his relationship with Liz. I bet that we could see that as Max and Liz grow closer and work toghther, Max becomes stronger as a person and leader.

Yes, I'd forgotten about this scene! It really struck me at the time. In retrospect, I wonder if it could have also forshadowed the fact that when it came time came to leave Earth (per Tess' alarm), Max wasn't really ready?

I like your interpretation better though...

Okay, z.a. is steaming right now cuz I just wrote a really long post and then it got deleted. I will try to recreate it here.

cristalyn~
Yay! That was me! I really do think that we've been set up for some awesome stuff in S3. Also, I read that JK didn't want to drag out the Tess thing for the whole season, but (and I think this will become our mantra as we approach S3 on UPN) the WB made him do it. Here are some things that have been set up by Season 2 to be explored in S3 and beyond:

Max and Liz rebuilding their relationship in whatever form. (And I'm a big fan of the phrase 'Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.')

The aliens exploring their human sides and DNA, and trying to find their human families. This was set up not only by the hybrid chronicles, but in Departure when Iz says "What makes one half more important than the other?" and Alex answers "That what you're going to have to find out." Besides the above, this is what I'm looking forward to and hoping for the most.

What is real and what isn't? Finding out what was a mindwarp from Tess and what wasn't. Tex and baby included.

Ava. Will she come back? If not, what happened to her? Is she the ream NM podster? Even if she isn't, will she join their team?

One of the best things about S2 was the integration of Kyle into the I Know An Alien Club. He goes from being someone who knows, but is distant from the group, to being part of the V. In Surprise, he talks only to his friends and Iz's party, but in Departure he sits around with Liz, Maria, and Sean just to hang out. I've loved him this entire season. He was amazing in The Hybrid Chronicles, and when he said to Iz, "You aliens are the most pathetic people I've ever met" I fell off the couch laughing. He could really turn out to be important in S3, and I hope he is. But I'd also like to see the effect of all this on the rest of his life. He was quite popular and involved in sports -- what happens to his other committments when important things go on in in the IKAAC?

Okay, I had some other stuff to say, but I forgot it while talking about Kyle. But there is one more important one that I could never forget.

The last few episodes of S2 have shown us how important Liz is. She was shafted a bit in S2, but I don't think that will happen in S3. And since they never explored Ava's comment on Liz's changed status and possible powers, S3 is the perfect place (time) to do it.

Later all

z.a.
*dreamer, mythologist, candygirl*

About the book: if someone with a faster connection can look through the Season One Screen Caps (I'm guessing 4 Square?), isn't there one that shows Isabel pregnant? what would that mean? Maybe the DB was a History Book, not a prophecy book, unless one had an agenda to make history repeat itself.!

And DreamerAtHeart, I don't know if you've yet visited http://ulink.net/plum/Roswell/symbols.htm , but I watched the Dupes' eps last night, and I just got a link to a site that puts Web pages into slang ( http://rinkworks.com/dialect/ ), so I couldn't resist trying it. Here's a bit: quote:A. ah reckon th' whirlwind(top lef') is symbolic of Max's varmints, an' the Saturn(top right) may represent th' enemah. Don't know if that will help with your symbol analysis.

HH - Here is the rub - I DO NOT want Season 3 to be the Quest for Max's Son, BUT I would be upset if they just drop it and left it hanging with no resolution! So - The Tex/Baby has to be dealt with, but I'm HOPING that somehow/someway it will turn out that Liz stumbles on the fact that it was all an illusion, etc. That would be fun to watch her piece it all together! AND It will take a lot of convincing (and groveling) for me to view Max as a true LEADER! After the way he treated Liz and Iz, the way he waffled between Liz and Tess in Departure (choosing Tess until it was almost too late and discovered she was a murderer) and other major character flaws that arose throughout Season 2, but especially in the last 6 episodes - Max has a LONG way to go before he is a true leader! I think it is possible, but there is a bit of redeeming that needs to be done with his character - at least in my eyes!

I also believe that the Destiny Book has some basis in authenicity - and that is why Tess had to warp Alex into decoding it - so that she could edit out what she did not want to have exposed. I also wonder if the Dupes have a DB of their own. And, YES shapeshifter - there was a picture of a pregnant woman in the DB from Season 1.

Has anyone read Ron Moore's recent interview? It is interesting, and I would welcome comments. One thing that struck me was the following statement about the final 6 episodes:
quote:"The mystery was there, but it wasn't too complicated."
I find this disturbing, because - to me - it implies that the face value is what we get, and that the clues, etc. that we have dug up don't really mean anything??! Comments??

Finally, my daughter cracked me up yesterday, and I wanted to share it for the die-hard Dreamers out there! We were driving from Soccer to Track Practice (don't ask - my life is nuts!) and she asked me if I knew what "bunny ears" meant? (She is in 1st grade.) I said no. She said "it means Turn Around And Kiss Me!" I immediately thought of the scene at the end of MITC where Max makes bunny ears/martian antenea behind Liz! SO - Now we know what he was REALLY saying to Liz!

I just thought that was cute, and would make some of you smile! !

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

"The mystery was there, but it wasn't too complicated."

I find this disturbing, because - to me - it implies that the face value is what we get, and that the clues, etc. that we have dug up don't really mean anything??! Comments??

Zero - I also found these comments a bit disburbing. Kevin Kelly Brown made similiar comments in an interview posted about a week ago:

quote:Reporter's question: I’ve never really gotten it. But is there any sort of underlying symbolism that you try to keep in consideration?

KKB: Some of the stuff, of course. The alien symbol and all that kind of stuff. Maybe sometimes the production department is having a little fun without telling us about it. For the most part, I think that the fans pick up on [things] that means something to them. [For example], the whole strawberry applesauce thing – because of the teaser in “Sexual Healing.”

It’s not just our fans – there’s entire religions built around the movie Blade Runner for god’s sake. But some of it, of course, can be quite humorous to us because we didn’t intend it that way. My personal favorite is the ‘infamous nod’ at the end of “Max in the City,” where [Max] asks [Liz] if she slept with Kyle. She didn’t answer, but they said: “Is that a nod – or did she shake her head?” For weeks, they went on. They still ask me about it.

We these comments and the comments Ron Moore made, I'm starting to believe if an "alien symbol" isn't involved, it has no real meaning to the writers, and that's truly unfortunate considering the wonderful stories etc., that can be build on all the things all many of the mythologers as well as others has come up with.

I can't believe that after everything - Liz(Departure)

I'm posting quickly today because real life has me on the run.
I'm with everyone else who was very angry when Max kissed Liz and then kissed Tess right after, but I THINK the writers were trying to tell us something.
When ever Liz has flashes she sees Max and her together. When Tess had the flash she saw Liz and Max together. This lead me to believe that Tess mindraped Max too see what he was up to while he was gone. He didn't look like he was on his way to her for a kiss, she said his name and then he kissed her. The flash reminded of the flashs Niko got on WO. I think kissing Liz was consuming Max's mind so this is what Tess saw it first. I keep thinking of her comment, "you won't remember her where we're going." So maybe they wouln't have killed Max but instead put his mind along with his memories in some kind of prison. K'var would then have complete control of him along with his people. I'm wondering if this is what the war is really all about on Antar. Could K'var have everyones mind held prisoner? So where would he keep all that energy and power? Maybe something called the Granolith? Think along the lines of the Matrix and also the Collective Conscious from the books. But most importantly how can these minds be released from their prison? It might take someone very special to do just that, anyone thinking Liz Parker, with a little help from her friends of course.
I don't think the Granolith left with Tess. For one thing on MITC Lonnie tells Nick that she doesn't care about the Granolith, she just wants to get home. Nick said on his list of commands that the Royal Four return along with the Granolith. Not IN the Granolith but along with it. I know this is a way out there theory, but with what the writers have given us this season, way out there is just about the best I can do.

Evid

Ok...in Blind Date, Michael sends the signal to "Nesedo". He does this without Max's approval & Isabel wasn't so sure about it. We all know how Michael is and how he just jumps into everything - it usually doesn't work right. He was making a huge mistake in doing that and basically its all Michael's fault we got Tess! Damn Mike!

So then at the end who was the person standing at the signal burning the pic of the 3 of them? I really believe that this is Nesedo...who is NOT there protector.

I think it did also signal "Tic Tac" who is their protector (but where did he go) and he is the one who killed Hank. Here is the thing with him. Nesedo always needed another person with him to take their form didn't he? Because Tic Tac just took form in the front seat of the car & by him killing Hank changed everything for Michael making it all better from then on.

Could Nesedo of murdered Shiela Hubble trying to stop her baby's essense, or what ever you call it from going to Liz? That he knew she was carrying "the key"??

If this has been discussed what have you all concluded about all of it?

Cantbehrit

And now I'm editing it because my daughter says it's spoilerish.
quote:from the UPN message board:
Comment
moondust
Unregistered User
(6/7/01 11:16:25 am)
Reply Ronald D Moore June 6, 2001 interview

Hey, Qfanny, they should make Diane a regular and expand her character. She's been on quite frequently, yet there have been few mother-daughter scenes. THAT would be a way to enhance Maria's character and to add richness to the show.

So, Evid, the Granolith is a big "Brain-Suck?"!! Do you remember the Riddler with his giant blender in Batman, or the X-Files on that subject? Sorry, I couldn't resist. It is an interesting premise, however...-HH

EDITED to say thank you to shapeshifter for the interview. Can't see what's disturbing though, and I wish I knew what was spoilerish!!!

What is the "backstroke" song you said is playing in the bowling alley when Liz is there with Sean? Did you read my theory about Sean and the backstroke??? -HH

Actually I wouldn't put too much stock in what Ron Moore has to say about Season3---I am not saying he is lying but I remember the way he said the last 6 episodes of Season2 were going to be character driven just like the fans were begging for-------now I know many people after VLV probably saw that Prom eppy coming got all excited and thought oh Liz and Max are going to reunite----but JK and Ron Moore--yes they gave us character driven episodes at the end-----that was one thing I actually liked---no EXTRA UNNECESSARY characters--just the group mostly----but I am sure this was not originally what anyone expected to happen--LOL!!!! So I think you can take Ron Moore's comments to be a bit off of what we will truly be getting because I think they like to knock our socks off just a bit-ahem!!!

be back later

Just an observation.

From Zap2It:

"At this point, Moore doesn't anticipate any
cast changes beyond the departures of Colin Hanks (whose character, Alex, was killed off to allow Hanks to pursue film opportunities) and de Ravin."

So - it does appear that Emile De Ravin will no longer be playing the part of Tess - and it looks like Ava wont be back either.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

47born, the "you won't remember where we're going" comment probably should have meant that they'd be leaving their earth bodies and entering new, Antarian ones. But it could also have meant Max was going to be killed.

Starbox, that would make the disappearance of Ava the biggest CHAD that TV fandom has ever seen.

GraceKel, I spelled your name with a C awhile back and that's worse than forgetting a z! No harm done. -HH

I always thought Isabel's early graduation was a bit strange. Isn't Liz the super-smart, "brainy" one? Where are they going with Isabel? Maybe this will set her up for romance with a college guy--maybe a new link to Kivar?

They keep saying they want to focus more on SCIFI---and I think the Liz Mythers are very much SCIFI fans--but with SCIF--DETAILS are very important--heck if they want to review timelines all they have to do is get the beautiful list that Zero has composed for us.

Re: the idea of a triangle between Liz, Max and a teenaged Max Jr. On a scifi level, this is sort of interesting. However, the whole notion makes me shudder. I know that Max Jr. wouldn't actually be any relation, but it feels almost as if a pairup between him & Liz would be incestuous. Maybe b/c I see Max's son as being stolen from Liz, his rightful bride? In any case, chalk that up as another thing that I do NOT want to see!

haniczka ITA, Emilie at least will be back as a guest star, for the first part of the season anyway. Maybe Colin as well, but he's not necessary--I think he's dispensed all the advice to Isabel that she needs from him, and now they can gracefully let him go. But we need resolution to Tess, so Emilie will almost certainly show up

Speaking of Alex and Iz, when she's saying goodbye at his grave, it really struck me that he said, "Your heart and your soul are still your heart and your soul; that doesn't change." I wonder if this is a clue that Vilandra really WASN'T the traitor? That it's not possible for Isabel to have changed so much, and that who she is now is the real Vilandra? It just keeps hitting me every time I watch Dep; I think it means something
~Tas

Okay - this got me thinking! (A dangerous thing! ) What if during the "mixing" process of the alien essence and human DNA 'they' got it mixed up, and mixed Vilandra's essence into Lonnie, but accidentally mixed it also into Tess, and that the Ava essence got put into Ava and Iz. What they look like is determined by the Human DNA, NOT the alien essence - so there could be a mixed up! Now this would explain the apparent fundamental personality differences. Yes, it does create a bit of an yuck factor - but than, I've NEVER bought into the Destiny thing, and believe we are and are with who we CHOOSE to to be and be with!

I hope that made sense?

I also think the EdR and CH will be back for guess spots if the show needs them. Of course, it depends on the terms of the contract they signed AND their success at being cast in other shows.

Night all!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

I hope that made sense?

Zero--Yes, it makes sense. On Thread #45 I posted the following:

quote:DESTINY
The Mom-o-gram states: "My son, you were the beloved leader of our people. I have sent with you your young bride. My daughter, the man you were betrothed to, and your brother's second-in-command." I believe that there are four podsters (in Roswell) and they are Max, Isabel, Michael, and Tess. However, their essences may not be as implied:

Max = Zan = King (Proof: He has the royal seal stenciled on his brain)
Michael = Rath = Sister's betrothed and Max's Second-in-command (Comment: "Wrath" (thanks VenusStar) is descriptive of Michael's powers. He has always been like a brother/brother-in-law to Max. Courteney seemed to know who he was.)
Isabel = Vilondra = Sister (Proof?: Lonnie "remembered" this. Whitaker and Nicholas recognized it.)
Tess = Ava = Bride (Proof?: Tess saying that she remembers it. Larek's "memories"--which, of course, could just be mindwarps.)

But I pose the following alternative (which I know has been hinted at before):
Isabel = Ava = Bride
Tess = Vilondra = Sister
But only in the ROSWELL 4, not the NY 4!

Proof: Isabel and Max could have been the married couple and recognized this bond when they left the pods--hence the hand-holding. I don't know many six- year-old siblings that would hold hands. Also, thinking of each other as "home" (Departure) if they had once planned to make a home together. But their human side and the way they were raised changed/influenced their feelings for each other and they are now, for all intents and purposes, brother and sister- -thereby leaving room for Liz! Also, Whitaker thought Tess might be Vilondra.

I hope this supports your ideas.

Also the v constellation have 5 stars... right.....five fingers in the handprint thats always shown symbolically. Could there really be five that could help save the world, help antar etc etc etc....the 5th element as it was said in this thread before

And also like in captian planet, like i used to watch the show when i was little there were 5 elements again... wind, water, earth fire and heart. Could liz be heart

Zero, I've got to tell you some trivia that's not directly related, but it's about your earlier post on "bunny ears". Did you know that tradition can be traced back to Shakespearian times? When a man had been "cockholded" by his wife, people would make that symbol behind is back. The bunny ears originally symbolized bull horns and they were very derogatory, obviously! So if Liz had really slept with Kyle, it would have been more appropriate for Max to wear the horns. And there's your trivia for the day. -HH

Evid - I agree that Tess didnt recieve a "flash" from Max - but rather she just took a little stroll into his mind. I think wandering around in his subconcious had become a habit at that point.

Nemo - excellent point about the symbolism of the "false alarm" - I wonder how it is that Tess KNOWS she is pregnant. I am assuming she didnt bring any alien EPT tests. She isnt showing at all - which lead me to believe that Max's "connection" with the late trimester fetus was a trick (convincing him the baby was sick and needed to go home). And last year - remember that Isabel was CONVINCED she was pregnant - she said she could feel things changing inside her body - and she connected with the fetus via. a dream.

As for EdR's return - I can see one episode that brings in Ava for closure if we re very, very lucky. I DO think "Tess" as a character wont be gone - I just think she will be played by someone else (older) - presumably - the Antarian "Tess" essence was a good deal older (she calls Max a "boy") - so I would guess that back on Antar she would be anxious to ditch the schoolgirl look.

I totally agree with the idea that Tess is Vilondra. Whether CW was in on the plot and claimed that Vilondra was the sister just to mess with Isabel - or whether Tess MINDRAPED CW into being confusd about the sister/wife/Vilondra connection. Remember - in Ask Not - CW is CLEARLY under the assumption that Vilondra is Tess - not Isabel. Either Vilondara was always the bride - or CW KNOWS about the deal with Nasedo and KNOWS that the sister -Vilondra - wont be acting "sisterly" and will be going after Max sexually.
Suprise has always screamed of a set up and conspiricy to me.

From Suprise:

ISABEL: You killed Nasedo, didn't you?

WHITAKER: To save you.

ISABEL: From what?

WHITAKER: The other 3. You belong with us, our race. We're in charge now. Your kind doesn't rule anymore.

ISABEL: I'm not one of you.

WHITAKER: You don't remember, do you? Let me give you a piece of history about your planet. Your name was Vilandra, and you were beautiful...even more beautiful than you are now. You had a great love...and for him...for us...you betrayed your brother, your race.

ISABEL: No.

WHITAKER: You sacrificed him. You sacrificed everyone...even yourself. And history, my dear, always repeats itself.

ISABEL: God, you liar. We're leaving. Tess, come on. Come on.

WHITAKER: Not until you tell me where you're hiding the granilith.

Everything in this passage would clearly fit with Departure and all of Tess's actions. It also makes the "hero worship" look as Tess gazed at CW's picture in Harvest make sense - especially if CW killed Nasedo to protect Vilondra (Tess).
Perhaps Nasedo was going to sell Tess(Vilondra) out to the other three podsters - by sleeping with him - CW was privy to finding this out. It could be that Nasedo had made a deal to betray the podsters with the full intent of acting as a double agent and betraying Vilondra(Tess)/Khivar. We know that CW and Nicolas are acting out of loyalty to Khivar - we know that Vilondra would be loyal to her lover - Khivar. Nasedo was - for all intent and purpose - a free agent.
Once the skins found Vilondra - Nasedo was unnecessary (which could be why he took her and hid her and tried to keep them from the skins - she was his meal ticket) - and was - in fact - a threat - since he could easily switch loyalties and tell max and Co everything about Khivar and Vilondra.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I have a few thoughts and I was wondering what anyone thought of this...(its probably been discussed in the past but I'm trying )

Ok...in Blind Date, Michael sends the signal to "Nesedo". He does this without Max's approval & Isabel wasn't so sure about it. We all know how Michael is and how he just jumps into everything - it usually doesn't work right. He was making a huge mistake in doing that and basically its all Michael's fault we got Tess! Damn Mike!

So then at the end who was the person standing at the signal burning the pic of the 3 of them? I really believe that this is Nesedo...who is NOT there protector.

I think it did also signal "Tic Tac" who is their protector (but where did he go) and he is the one who killed Hank. Here is the thing with him. Nesedo always needed another person with him (or something like that) to take their form didn't he? Because Tic Tac just took form in the front seat of the car & by him killing Hank changed everything for Michael making it all better from then on.

Could Nesedo of murdered Shiela Hubble trying to stop her baby's essense, or what ever you call it from going to Liz? That he knew she was carrying "the key"?? Or that she was important in some way.

If this has been discussed what have you all concluded about all of it?

Cantbehrit

Shapeshifter - totally agree that failure to wrap-up what happened when Ava left to "do what she had to do" would be a huge CHAD - as would failure to deal with the rest of the Dupes and Nicko!

DreamerAtHeart!! See - great minds think alike! Actually, now that you repost it - I remember your post, so it has probably been perculating in my head and that previous post made it pop out! It does make a lot of sense if you can get over the "yuck" factor!

QueenAmidala94 - "V" has lots of common meanings. Like the V sign you make with your had can mean "Victory" at a sporting event, etc. or for those of us who remember the Viet Nam War - it meant "Peace." (Still does!) Both of which can be related to the show. Also - the number 5 appears and reappears throughout Roswell episodes since day one - and I'm a big supporter of the "Liz is the 5th Element" theory! I thing that would be such a fun and interesting path for the writers to take!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

That is so interesting - I love learning stuff like that! But I must admit - I like my daughters interpretation best - it was just so "cute!" And immediately made me think of that scene!

StarBox - I want to say welcome back, too! And I too like Evid and your idea of Tess "wandering" around in Max's mind AOT Tess getting a "flash."

cantberhit - Now - first - we have to assume continuity in storyline between seasons and episodes - which there isn't - BUT assuming some continuity - Remember in Into the Woods - SOMEONE/THING 'came' to Fraser Woods (similar lightning to that of Future Max arrival) and left a 'sign' - the swirling symbol. Then in Blind Date we have the symbol that Michael burns into the grass outside the Library based on the cave map. I don't know Who burned there picture at the end, but I think it might have been Harding - and I do not believe that Harding is necessarily Nasedo! And whoever came to Fraser Woods might be another alien completely. I'm a bit rusty on my episodes from Season 1, but I believe Tic Tac shows up after ITW - so this may be where Tic Tac starts making his presence known. I believe Tic Tac is not Harding who is not Nesado. Is Tic Tac the "true" Nesado - I don't know? But I believe Tic Tac is friendly to the Pod Squad and the person at the end of BD was NOT! SO - I do not believe the person burning the picture was Tic Tac or the protector for the Pod Squad. (I hope this is all making sense.) Basically, what I'm getting at - is that I believe that there are possibly MORE than 2 aliens/shapeshifters out there - Harding who is dead now and was possibly/probably a bad guy; Tic Tac who has shown protection for the Pod Squad but chosen for his own reasons to keep his identity hidden; and possibly another one or two, one of which might be the true Nasedo! I truly believe the writers could develop this and it would make lots of sense if done correctly. The clues are there - if they would only rewatch the episodes and take notes!

I do not however believe it is Mikey G's fault we got Harding and Tess. I believe Harding had been watching the group for quite some time, and had only recently decided it was "time" to move in with Tess.

If anything, Max's healing would have caused Harding to become aware of him. BUT any alien/shapeshifter worth his salt/spice would have been able to track them down through adoption/foster care records. I think Tic Tac was signaled or arrived in ITW - but that has been watching and is a protector. Where has he got?? Don't know, but there still is a question about "who?" was watching Liz and Maria in the street in Wipeout and Max in the school hallway. I don't think it was Courtney.

ALso - the Sheila Hubble storyline is still out there "hanging"! We know that Harding had her dead body in his mind - Liz saw it - but that doesn't mean that he was the only one there OR that he was responsible. I never take what is given to me on face value - though maybe I should with this show??

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

ITA -HH

-edited to say my first time cutting and pasting. I learn slowly!

Nuts. She's a good actress, and both her roles are needed on the show.

OTOH (and you knew there was one, didn't you?) TPTB have mis-lead us before. Remember last year we all "knew" Ed Harding would be around all Season 2? First ep- dead. Remember the interviews that said Roswell was the most tightly plotted show, and that the writers had no plot from one episode to the next? Pick one, this isn't Florida. Remember the Silverhandprint.com piece where Tess is revealed to be this nice, sweet girl? Pbtht.

If they do decide to drop EdR, I think we should send in something to get her back. Empty bottles of Tabasco? Bottles of catsup, instead? Something...

In ITW, Michael healed RiverDog's ankle. Do we not consider RD changed in any way since he wasn't near death?
Zero, I couldn't stop thinking about your more-than-one-protector idea while watching ID. I had thoughts on it, but my mind is mush now plus I just saw your post above on the topic. I am going to reread it to make sure I understand it.
Does anyone think that Valenti Sr.'s repeated comments about how cold he was in UFOC (I think) were due to his dimentia or something alien-related?
Holy butterflies - Liz's robe, her locker at the CC, that huge one over the mirror - and this was all way before we had an inkling that she might be "changed"!
Did they ever mention the major reconstruction of the Crashdown? It totally looks different from ep 2 to ep3!

Ok, back to my watching marathon. I am seriously watching all of these eps in a brand new light as I didn't visit the myth board until S2, and I have all of you to thank for that!

CantBehrIt - I have thought the same thing about Michael's symbol burning - that he burned the WRONG symbol. The symbol there (and on silverhandprint.com for the prom memories) is a "real" symbol - it stands for the black moon and is associated with Lilith. I think there is a big similarity between Adam/Lilth/Eve and Max/Tess/Liz.
It also does seem to have "brought on" Harding and Tess.

As for Sheila Hubble - remember the leaky pod in So47??? IF the fetus in that pod had been "born" at the time of the crash it would have been the same age as Sheila Hubble was. Coincidence????
I am a big leaky pod fan - I do believe that one of them there podsters was a fake - and I am thinking it was Tess. Tess seems - in her knowledge of all things Antar and her insinuated relationships with CW, Nicolas and Courtney - to not be a hybrid with a mixed essence.

Reggie - if it helps you feel any better - I have heard that EdR missed her home and family very much. She is awfully young and it has to be hard to be so far away from everyone. I dont think LA is an enviornment that fosters real friendships being formed - so imagine what it must be like to be a kid - all alone - in a very un-friendly business and town. Personally - I think the complex loyalites and motives of Tess dictate that the character needs to be played by a woman. I mean - she CANT come back looking like EdR - she could never be a part of the group now - nor could she be trusted at all - and if she has other plans - to fit into society well enough to carry them out (especially) with a child - she needs to have the outward appearance of an adult.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Plus the rumor that I heard (Let's trade rumors! ) was that she very much wanted to be on Roswell next year.
We should do a "Save Tess" campaign...

Tess was a mistake on Max's part - both our Max and Future Max.

Tess as good guy lasted way too long, and to see her "outed" is a relief. You can't have her come back as a good guy again, then bad, then good. Too many shows have done this thinking it keeps viewers on the edge of their seats. It doesn't. It simply makes the character lose credibility, and viewers lose interest.

I for one am glad to see Tess go -
1. Since Max and Liz have to get back together - that is the show.
2.Because her character had played itself out. To keep her around without a dagger in her hand trying to kill someone every week would be beating a dead horse.

However, Emille is alone, in another country at such a long way, that's different tahn child actors and teenagers who can still go home to parents, within the same country...

Roswell was not her first role, it was Beastmaster and she was young, but let's alos remember that Emille is a dancer, she got accepted into some Ballet Company in AussieLand so she is talented in that regard....

As far as Emille goes...yes, she may be gone, I think she probably is gone...but the Tess charcater and Ava can easily stay...

I for one am glad to see Tess go -
1. Since Max and Liz have to get back together - that is the show.
2.Because her character had played itself out. To keep her around without a dagger in her hand trying to kill someone every week would be beating a dead horse.

Oh, brother.
Look, the beginings of Season Three are already showing. Michael and Maria have slept together, so their relationship is going to be on the skids. Liz and Max have been on the outs, so they'll be getting back together; but not without fireworks (to keep it "interesting" ). Probably Sean will make a triangle, if not love, with Liz.

Max has been an insufferable ass, so he will be going through an identity crisis (King? Boy? Boy King? <gag> ). Ex-Sheriff Valenti will either run for Sheriff again, or be arrested for loitering. Amy Deluca will be disappearing until sweeps week (unless she bakes cookies). If Kyle doesn't have good-Tess to play with, he'll have to go after Isabel; who will find him cramping her style as she cruises the retirement homes for a boyfriend.

Save this message. Mourn the lost splendor.

They need four podsters, of about the same age. They need EdR, if only to do Ava once in a while.

quote:...remember that Isabel was CONVINCED she was pregnant - she said she could feel things changing inside her body So Tess could still have been manipulated by someone else? Nevermind. She blasted off, and that's all folks. But where is Ava?

quote:...in Ask Not - CW is CLEARLY under the assumption that Vilondra is Tess - not Isabel. Either Vilondara was always the bride - or CW KNOWS about the deal with Nasedo and KNOWS that the sister -Vilondra - wont be acting "sisterly" and will be going after Max sexually. or, I suppose it could be that the writers-of-the-week were a little confused. Or, I suppose CW could have thought that Max was Michael. Maybe because that was the "king" that Courtney was courting?

quote:...Once the skins found Vilondra - Nasedo was unnecessary (which could be why he took her and hid her and tried to keep them from the skins - she was his meal ticket) - and was - in fact - a threat - since he could easily switch loyalties and tell max and Co everything about Khivar and Vilondra.Or maybe even Nasedo didn't know who the real Vilondra was?

quote:...As for Sheila Hubble - remember the leaky pod in So47??? IF the fetus in that pod had been "born" at the time of the crash it would have been the same age as Sheila Hubble was...Starbox, somehow that possibility has previously escaped me. This could fit with my theory that Tess's essence was really Nasedo's wife's who died in the crash. Then maybe Nasedo killed Sheila because she had the essence, and then, when he kissed Liz, who was "open" to who she thought was Max, Nasedo saw that since she was healed, she now had a special bond with Max that would take the place of the missing bride essence. And maybe he was attracted to her before that because Antar is sort a Bizarro land, and Liz is the human counterpart to Antar/Bizarro Tess (who was born early as Sheila Hubble--hence Edward Hubble's fireworks kisses). Hmmm...but then why have Michael and Isabel never been attracted? And why was there no attraction between Max and Ava? I guess it all comes back to being one big MindWarp scheme perpetrated by Nasedo and Tess.

Zero and all TicTac Mythologists--
On the Season One Primer at http://www.thewb.com/roswell/primer/s1e15/index.shtml , we have: quote:...Liz and Max dig up an alien orb with a glowing symbol on top. Exhausted by the previous events, Liz and Max fall asleep in the desert only to be awakened by a strange man who unbeknownst to them is Nasedo...Now, what I don't know is, who wrote the Primer? After I first read it (sometime long after SH aired), and after Skin & Bones aired, I figured Harding/Nasedo was the only Nasedo, and he killed Hank because Michael had displayed his powers, and Hank was, at best, a loose cannon. But that doesn't mean there isn't another shapeshifter out there, just that TPTB may not ever choose to acknowledge that there is more than one still living.

My ISP is going down for the night soon for maintenance. So http://ulink.net/plum/Roswell will be down, and I will be doing other things.

I agree with many - while my initial reaction to Tess's departure was a big fat "good riddance", I understand that not having EdR on the show in any capacity will just contribute to the CHAD that ate New York.

BTW, Still having fun rewatching S1, though I just got to TLV. I never saw it before so it is more than disturbing to view....how could no one see her deviousness??

Shapeshifter, I think you just mindwarped me!!

Hey, All! I'm totally facinated by the Destiny Book and have discovered some interesting patterns. I've downloaded every destiny book text image and cave map image that I can find. I'll share all of my thoughts with my fellow RBIs just as soon as I can collect them into a coherent piece.

Thanks to all of you who directed me to the ulink site on symbols. It was a great place to get started.

I am still not convinced that Creepy Ed is dead---that could have been a mindwarp too for him to run around freely wreaking havoc along the way. I am almost positive he was never the PODS PROTECTOR-----why would he say "whats she doing here?" referring to Isabel like that? It simply doesn't make sense if he were their protector to speak this way of Isabel.

As far as TICTAC goes we had many discussions about the two shapeshifters on these threads----I believe we really liked Palomino's idea the best--well I did---that Mr Creepy Ed killed Hank BUT it was TICTAC who came in and covered up the death so that Michael would not take the blame. I believe it was TICTAC smiling over Liz and Max in the desert, Nasedo visited too but a bit earlier, now we haven't seen TICTAC since the CRAZY eppy as Dr Malcolm Margolin.

Another thing that bothers me is what are they going to do now that Tess is gone??? How are they going to explain where she went to anyway??? I think they (podsters) will have to try to find Ava to fill in a Tess's hole for a while until a they can build a believable scenerio around Tess moving.

Guys, I've been thinking of writing a script for the show. (No - I have no agent, golly if I did.) Tell me if it sounds interesting...

Title: Play Act
Plot line one: Ava fills Tess's role in Roswell
Plot line two: Everyone trys out for the school production of "Our Town" by Thorton Wilder.
Plot line three: Max worries over his mistake in telling a UFO nut he was an alien. He meant it as a joke... He asks Liz to field the situation out as, hmm, an alien.

I think it did also signal "Tic Tac" who is their protector (but where did he go) and he is the one who killed Hank. Here is the thing with him. Nesedo always needed another person with him (or something like that) to take their form didn't he? Because Tic Tac just took form in the front seat of the car & by him killing Hank changed everything for Michael making it all better from then on.

Cantbehrit

Cantbehrit - yeah, this is been discussed to death before, but it keeps coming up because there does seem to be differences in the shapeshifter (s) - either a split personality or actually two or more.

Your theory works for me, because these were the questions I wanted to see addressed and answered in season two. Humph... Needless to say, our explanations (theories) are better.

I do believe in the theory of two shapeshifters - Good shapeshifter and Bad shapeshifter. Good shapeshifter watchs the podsters from a distance. Bad shapeshifter makes trouble for them. Now who is good and how is bad is sort of a big question mark.

The alien that walks through fire at the end of Blind Date is the bad shapeshifter in my eyes. In addition to the his pyrotechnic powers, he seemed to have place recording equipment around for his own personal collection. Somehow, Pierce got a hold his video images and usage them to feed it back to Max in White Room. It's entirely possible that this alien was Nasedo - although Tess's comments in Destiny have made me question that. Either Mr. Pyropants was a version of Ed Harding (perhaps the alias he was refering to with Liz in MttM) or he was possessed by an alien like Brody. (Remember, the human embessary had powers.)

Now, GraceKel thinks that the Rancher from Sexual Healing was kindly watching over Max & Liz. I don't discount it, but I think that Mr. Rancherpants did something to the orb when they were sleeping. (Now would be a good time to review the switched orb theory). Whether Mr. Rancherpants intended harm or not, there was no need to show himself to Max and Liz as they awoke. If Good Shapeshifter watches from afar, why did he suddenly decide to get close and interact with Max?

Bad Shapeshifter is there from Crazy on in the form of Ed Harding. Of course, we don't see Ed until the next episode, but with Tess's presence, we know that he is there. I have this pet theory that we have two shapeshifters and one Tolpolski in Roswell during Crazy. TicTac is at the end and plays Dr. Margolin. Harding I think could be Topolski at some point in the middle. I also think that he could be playing Tess, but maybe they were just working together.

If you're confused, I guess it's because I'm confused.

In the spirit of my flower delivery theory - that the flowers had to come from Tess/Topolski/Bad shapeshifter - let's see if they match the card from the Olsen's in Sweden.

As GraceKel has noted before:

-Max tells Michael to send flowers to girls-

-Tess overhears-

-Liz receives flowers-

-Note the handwriting-

Season Two information:

Tess admits to being a forger in ARCC: She sent Amy Deluca a note from the Sheriff.

These are my findings.

SYMBOLS AND TEXT OF THE CAVE MAP AND DESTINY BOOK

Symbols

The cave map has six distinct "symbols."

(Screencaps from http://ulink.net/plum/Roswell and HREF= TARGET=_blank>http://www.crashdown.com[/URL])

1. The "whirlwind" symbol — @ (the source of much discussion)
Near top-left on the cave map.
Appears on pendant, signal in Into The Woods, on communicators, in sky as Harding's signal to Pierce at the carnival, and the granilith countdown.

2. The "Saturn" symbol — <+>
At top-right on the cave map.
Appears on the cover of the Destiny Book, the signal Michael uses to summon Nacedo in BD, very similar to the "CrashDown" label on the doors of the Café.

3. The "rock formation" symbol — /`/\ (It seems to be the most obvious)
At bottom-center of the cave map.
It looks very much like the rock formation where the pods are stored along with the granilith.

4. The "cells" symbol —* .][.][.][.\./
In the center of the cave map.
Doesn't really appear anywhere. Others have speculated that it represents the four podsters with possibly Liz as the "V" at the right end, or a representation of the "leaky pod" at the left end. I do not agree that this represents our Roswell 4 because their 4-Square symbol (see #6) is already there. If the cells symbol does represent pods, then I believe it's the New York 4 — since their pods are the ones nested in a straight line. But I have no idea why they would be the *center* of the map.

(or see above cave map pic)
5. The "galaxy" symbol — {([#])} (This one seems most ambiguous)
Near the center of the cave map between the cells and rock formation.
This symbol looks different in Michael's and Isabel's flashes than it does on the drawing of the cave map. What this image (not the one in the drawing) reminded me of is the flag of the United Nations.

....but maybe that's just me.

6. The "four-square" symbol — :x:
At the bottom-left of the cave map. (Often cut off in screencaps)
Here from Four Square:
The four-square symbol has to represent our four Roswell podsters.
Note: This symbol is NOT part of the V-formation of healing stones.

Text in the Cave Map
The cave map has six lines of "text."
(The destiny book is written with the same "characters" as in the text on the cave map.)

1. The text in the upper left corner is the same as the "title" (?) of the Destiny Book translation.

2. The text in the lower left corner (seen best in Isabel's flash pictured above) is exactly the same as the text in the right center, next to the galaxy symbol.

3. All of the characters on the pentagon can be found in the cave map text. Most (4) of them are at the right hand side of a line of text.

The Destiny Book

I'm still working on this, but here's a summary of what I've found so far.

1. The cover is the Saturn symbol (this was obvious), but of the six cave map symbols, this is the only one that appears in the Destiny Book.

2. There are very few pages to the DB— I think there are at least seven, but not much more. Four pages are all text and three have pictures and text.

3. The picture pages include (1) faces of the 4 podsters as "adults," (2) faces as children, and (3) two couples each with the woman pregnant.

4. The text pages are punched through and can be seen through on the back side.

5. The characters of the text do not translate directly to English letters. There are more than 26 different characters and certainly not enough in the book to form all of the letters needed for what we've already seen of the translation. The characters could represent words or ideas, but I'm not sure.

6. In the text of the DB and under the pictures in the DB, sets of characters can be found that are almost the same as the DB "title" and sets that are almost the same as the repeated set of characters on the cave map that are next to the galaxy and four-square symbols.

7. (This one may the most confusing, but I thought it was one of the most interesting) If we assume that the title to the DB that's on the computer is right-side-up, then all of the symbols and the text of the Cave Map are also right-side-up. This means that the DB is very mixed up! (Or at least they are very tricky about the way they show it to the audience.) The picture pages and the text on them are all right-side-up, but the text on the text-only pages is ALL upside-down. I used the computer screen images for this analysis. On the computer screen the enlarged images of the characters are right-side-up, but the pages in the background are upside-down.

I don't know what most of this means, but I find it all very intriguing. (I guess that's pretty obvious to anyone whose actually read this far.)

I think that's all I have right now. I'll keep you posted as I discover more.
Please share your own findings with me.

My Theory on Tess is that she was switched with Ava. "Tess" sounds more like and alien name and Ava sounds like a human name. This would explain why she remembers about as much as the dupes do. Ava not remebering thier planet would further alienate her from the group. Naesado was probably the NYC proctector, and Tic-Tac(Doubt we'll ever see him again)was our Psquad protector. Their personalities all suport this.

As for the identity of the real traitor, it is clearly Tess. If Isabelle was the traitorthe why would he make another deal were Tess delivers M/M and Izzy to be murder right off the ship. He seem to have an affair with on of them more likely Tess. CW was clearly mixed up about the 2 Royal female aliens. If Tess was not in fact the real trator why won't she tell Max what CW said. This would also explain why no one healed her in Surprize she wasn't really hurt. Courtney seem to no Tess was up to something, that probably why Tess hated her so much she knew the truth. I have alway belive Tess was (fake bride or not) Michael's sister. Cw said the traitor betrayed her brother not the King. As military leader Rath was sold out so Tess could be with Kivar. That my take any way.

For all those that would love for JK, FOX and Regency to release Season 1 & 2 on DVD's and VHS Tapes Please click on the link below and [b]SIGN the PETITION. http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?RosVHS

~Sheri
found this on Ros2 board thought I'd share!

There are just TOO MANY questions in Season2---for one why did Nicholas call Tess Max's genocidal girlfriend? Why not his wife????? After all Nicholas was suppose to know the Royal Four didn't he? In Harvest Nicholas says to Michael, "you MUST be the king's second in command, I killed you myself...." (he says you MUST be--is he not sure?)

Tess says about Nasedo/Ed Harding---its not like he was Ward Cleaver when he was around......--but in MITC she tells Lonnie and Rath----I was raised by our protector we were very close-----well which is it? In M2TM Tess says "you're not my family, MM and I are...."

Things that make you go hmmmmm.

Elena and everyone, I think that many of the "CHADs," "plotholes," or whatever you want to call the things that don't make sense in Roswell are due to the large number of writers, the tight deadlines, and maybe Jason Katims appreciation of the creativity of the writers at the expense of continuity of the story. Also, we have the unexpected departure of Colin Hanks, which they tried to work into the plot, and did a pretty good job of doing, but it's a little rough. Jason Katims has shown that he appreciates the audience's thoughts/reactions (such as taking the idea of a 'changed Liz' and running with it--unless it was already in the plans and he was just faking ignorance to keep it secret). In fact, I think he also appreciates (to a degree) the actors' inclinations--at least this could explain the episodes in which Tess is part of the group in a positive, helpful way.

Also, as Eleanac points out, we have a really tangled web of double agents.

Okay, now to my real reason to post this morning: After reading the Ron Moore interview in which he says that the last 6 eps set the scene for Season 3, I decided to rewatch them, but starting with OTM as had been originally scheduled. I invite others to do the same; I think this will fit in with other discussions of the development of the Tess Plot going back to Season 1 (if I have time I will rewatch those too), and DreamerAtHeart's Quest Of The Book Language. Whatever, here's what I got from OTM:
1) Larek has possession of a device that acts on the aliens the same way Kryptonite acts on Superman. I am proposing that Larek is no friend of the podsters, but rather a double agent. I propose that the whole thing in NY was a setup to lure Max in and get him to accept Larek as a friend. In fact, this was the whole reason Larek came to Roswell as Brody. It is why Brody was attracted to Maria. So, then, in Season 3, we should either discover that Brody has been permanently healed of Larek's influence, or Brody will be killed off (if Desmond Askew decides to go Shakespearean or something ).
2) Tess shows up at the UFO Center moments after the Brody/Larek short circuit. Either the whole thing was planned (to get images of Zan/Ava to Max--but this seems a little contrived), or Tess 'sensed' or got a message from Larek that his human host was about to go postal, so she came to 'fix' it. BTW, Tess's gift to Max of the 'black v-neck sweater' seems very symbolic; I'm surprised Nemo and his wife haven't commented on it. Black in literature often symbolizes death, the "v" symbol is related to our show's mythology, "v-neck" sound somewhat noose-like, and a sweater, well, I'll let someone else do something with that--a straight jacket for Max, maybe?
3) This last point is not directly related to OTM, but was somehow inspired by watching it. Many Dreamers and LizMythologists, as well as Tess fans, were not happy with the Season finale. Personally, I just accepted it (okay, I have personal doormat issues ), but I have an idea for a better ending that can be brought into Season 3: The real plot of the EAs will turn out to have been to bring Max's firstborn to Antar and kill him because it is only the firstborn who carries the royal essence/brain stencil which keeps the people from accepting Kvar as King. So this has now been accomplished, as Max will discover by Christmas (unless he does save the son which will make a lot of folks less than happy, but consider the alternative as I have proposed it, and it's not much nicer). Of course, Max himself will still have the Royal Seal, hence his own life is still in danger.

And BTW, I think Sean is being emissaried by Dupe Zan's essence--I didn't see his earing, but is it a hoop like Brody and the Dupes wear?

This morning, after reading your comment and my brainstorm from last night, I made the connection that maybe Michael really didn't summon Nacedo, but "summoned" the Destiny Book instead. And the DB was found in the library.

His signal set the next phase in motion so that they could learn more about themselves.

Also, here's a conversation from Blind Date:

(Isabel and Michael take Max's jeep and drive to the library)

ISABEL: I think this is as close as you've ever come to the library, Michael.

MICHAEL: That means something, Isabel. It's right here on the map. Look. This is the constellation I saw in my dream. It's Aries, the ram.

(Isabel gives Michael a questioning look)

MICHAEL: I looked it up. And this is the symbol Nasedo left us at the cave. If you take a map of Roswell and you position it properly when Aries is directly overhead, which is in April by the way, all the rest of these symbols take on locations. And this one's right here at the library.

ISABEL: How'd you know how to do all that, Michael?

MICHAEL: I just knew.

ISABEL: I don't think we should be doing this.

MICHAEL: Isabel, he sent us a signal. We gotta send him one back. This is how we're gonna find him.

ISABEL: Yeah, but what if he's...

MICHAEL: What if he's the killer? There's only one way to find out.

BTW, Still having fun rewatching S1, though I just got to TLV. I never saw it before so it is more than disturbing to view....how could no one see her deviousness??
Oh, even I went through my period of "Tesssss is Evil". She's definitely up to something, but what? Later, it's revealed that she's his wife, and has been brought up to believe that she loves him, and he loves her (or would if he only knew).

Have you noticed that married couples flirt with each other? And when they do, they can be a bit more ribald than unmarried couples. My belief, then and now, is that Tess was simply "flirting" with Max: sending him erotic images, to pique his interest.

Of course, it didn't work out that way; it just confused and frightened him. But then, he didn't know what Tess clearly did: He's her husband, and it's OK to get lascivious with your spouse.

And they have to (no options!) get The Granolyth back. As a time machine, it's far to powerful a weapon to give away. With it, Kivar goes back 39 years, and kills the pods. End of story.

Oh, and EdR is too much fun (when good) to loose.

Also, here's a conversation from Blind Date:

[b](Isabel and Michael take Max's jeep and drive to the library)

ISABEL: I think this is as close as you've ever come to the library, Michael.

MICHAEL: That means something, Isabel. It's right here on the map. Look. This is the constellation I saw in my dream. It's Aries, the ram.

(Isabel gives Michael a questioning look)

MICHAEL: I looked it up. And this is the symbol Nasedo left us at the cave. If you take a map of Roswell and you position it properly when Aries is directly overhead, which is in April by the way, all the rest of these symbols take on locations. And this one's right here at the library.

ISABEL: How'd you know how to do all that, Michael?

MICHAEL: I just knew.

ISABEL: I don't think we should be doing this.

MICHAEL: Isabel, he sent us a signal. We gotta send him one back. This is how we're gonna find him.

ISABEL: Yeah, but what if he's...

MICHAEL: What if he's the killer? There's only one way to find out.

[/B]

So you think that Michael summoned the destiny book instead of the Mr. Pyropants - evil alien?

Wow. That makes more sense to me as Mr. Pyropants always bugged me.

TVPooh: Max said "I have to save my son."
If we are suppose to take the show at face value then this means the season will be about Max looking for Max Jr. I suddenly don't feel so bad about not getting UPN. If they go in this direction I think the show is as good as dead.

Evid

Of course, it didn't work out that way; it just confused and frightened him. But then, he didn't know what Tess clearly did: He's her husband, and it's OK to get lascivious with your spouse...[/B]Reggie, that would all be acceptable, especially with the tear she sheds at the end of OTM, ***EXCEPT*** that I got the distinct impression at the end of Departure that Tess knew that Kvar would kill Max, Isabel, and Isabel after they got to Antar. Tess says Kvar is "not my enemy;" she does ***not*** say "not our enemy."
So, I just think EdR is wise to leave the show at this point, having created a villain that caused more stir among the television viewing audience in a short season and a half than perhaps any others have in 8 seasons.

Elenac, so, if that scenario is correct (that Larek was Max's friend but now sees it necessary to manipulate him), is Larek good or evil or both? We tried to see Tess as both, but in the end she was basically evil.

DreamerAtHeart, I really appreciated the work you did on the symbols!

Have we considered the possibility that Brody wasn't snapping because of Larek-overload but because of excessive MWing from Tess? I haven't really thought this one out, so poke away at it. I know that the possibility of MW was discussed after OTM because of the images he got of Z/A. I just wonder how much of what we saw throughout that entire ordeal was in fact false.

Given the introduction showing Brody working with his Virtual Reality memory retreval project, and the sudden electrical surge & blackout, I think we have to accept that Brody's problem was caused by the jolt of electricity.

How it works: Larek "borrows" Brody, and when he's done, gives him amnesia over the period of time involved. Now, as anyone who's watched too much TV can tell you, if you get knocked on the head it causes amnesia. A second injury to the head reverses the effects. In this case, the second injury was the electrical jolt. When Max healed the second injury, Brody reverted to one-knock status, and his amnesia returned. Simple!

"Why does everything have to be a lie" almost echoes that statement.

Isabel shows Alex the drawing Max has of the symbols from the cave map

little did poor Alex know he's be translating those symbols

maria warned Liz not to get involved with Max because she'd get hurt

obviously Maria was speaking from experience with Michael, but I found it interesting how her profecy came true. <SIGH>

Nasdeo
I think you all have covered this topic nicely, but I am firmly convinced that Ed Harding/tess's "dad" was NOT the Nasedo Riverdog knew. Riverdog said that nasedo was dying, and had to trust him with his secret. Harding doesn't strike me as the type to trust ANYONE with any kind of secret

the Balance
Riverdog said that the balance can change both body and mind. sounds like we have the answer to Stepford Max.
Max told Liz that sometimes you have to take a step back and find out what's really going on. Then WHY the heck didn't he follow his own advice with Tess?

So, in conclusion,I believe there was evidence of Tess's evil doings long before she showed up in Roswell.

I also watched The Convention. I'm still trying to figure out WHY Sheila Hubble was killed by the shapeshifter BUT I did pick up on the fact that Larry said Max placed his hands on Liz's WOMB and healed her. I think this is very significant. Why that choice of words? Maybe it foreshadows that LIZ will be the one to carry the royal heir. Maybe she has the essence of the royal heir in her already, waiting for the right time.

I'm still bugged by Departure. How are we supossed to know what was real and what was a Tess warp? UGH! Fustrating! Sadly enough though, for many of the shows I've watched, they've not been the same since the first season. Party of 5 went to Soap land after the first season, Dawson's creek went downhill after Kevin Williamson left and even Felicity has been really disapointing. This season was better than last, but still dumb.

OK that's it for now. The next episode I have to watch is TLV! I'll be back then!

Besides, if they didn't need Tess, they'd need Ava or some other mindwarper. It's the best defense they have: Max's Shield doesn't help avoid discovery, Michael can't blow up every inquisitive Deputy without causing a stir, and while Isabel can dreamwalk a potential threat she can't do much to stop it. Tess/Ava is an integral part of the Pod Squad, and her station must not be left unattended!

I actually think that this saturn symbol is a communicator symbol..if u look closely its in the shape of the orbs. The dot in the middle being a representation of the swirly symbol.

Micheal used this symbol to communicate to Nesado.....the symbol is also on the destiny book this might be to communicate that this book tells the podsters about their past lives

this symbol could represent the 5 planets. the dots being the planets and the the square shapes around them being the connection of all 5 planets with one another

The first dot, which is by itself could represent earth its by itself because we don't now about and might not be ready to know about alein existance yet. therefore we are not connected to the alein five planets yet, but will be eventually.....I dont know if earth is one of the five planets discuseed in season 2, as in Aussie land we've only started season 2.
But if earth isn't one of those five planets then that dot could represent earth.

The V shape triangle on the end of the symbol could represent the podsters home planet and the v shape constellation.

TVPooh, your comments on Balance reminded me of one more symbol I left off of my list:

The Balance Wheel

This was shown in a flash in Balance, but it does not appear anywhere else. I think it was just used to illustrate what was going on with the healing stones and is not one of the primary symbols. If it was, then we would have (should have) seen more of it.

Evid

[/B]
Evid: I think that Max will discover that he has to challege the legimacy of the baby's right to the throne. K'var needs the heir for his own benefit. What if Max and Liz produced their own son? Certainly, the question of who was the legimate heir would come up.

Just thoughts.

Every since TLV, it was indicated that they must mate? Why?

In humans at least, the male carries both, female and male. The female only carries, female.

Was this a plan, when Antar tried to save their three original pods, Khivar, with the help of Nacedo (whom I never trusted from day one) plotted the so called destiny crap?

That Antar was trying to save their King from such? Knowing that their King would find his purpose, here on earth, for their King to come back strong and save them.

Liz has and will be the Key, she has saved their butts, without powers, but with brains, more than once.

With the events that have occurred, they have won, once again.

Lakers, West Coast! hehehehe!

A Dreamer that will never Waiver!

"Why does everything have to be a lie" almost echoes that statement.

Isabel shows Alex the drawing Max has of the symbols from the cave map

little did poor Alex know he's be translating those symbols

maria warned Liz not to get involved with Max because she'd get hurt

obviously Maria was speaking from experience with Michael, but I found it interesting how her profecy came true. <SIGH>

Nasdeo
I think you all have covered this topic nicely, but I am firmly convinced that Ed Harding/tess's "dad" was NOT the Nasedo Riverdog knew. Riverdog said that nasedo was dying, and had to trust him with his secret. Harding doesn't strike me as the type to trust ANYONE with any kind of secret

the Balance
Riverdog said that the balance can change both body and mind. sounds like we have the answer to Stepford Max.
Max told Liz that sometimes you have to take a step back and find out what's really going on. Then WHY the heck didn't he follow his own advice with Tess?

So, in conclusion,I believe there was evidence of Tess's evil doings long before she showed up in Roswell...The one thing that strikes me as odd about this in light of all the eps thus far is that Riverdog seems to be the only human that joined Nasedo's personal chapter of the IKAAC (I Know An Alien Club) and lived for any length of time. We do know, as I think Queen Amadala01 pointed out, that there were 2 shapeshifters in Summer of 47. So I agree, TVPooh, that either the writers just changed horses and directions with Nasedo's character (which I guess they're entitled to do when the character is a shapeshifter ), or there was another shapeshifter who left the cave map.

I too have been continuing on with my own personal Summer Tape Watching Program in the absence of any grander scheme. Hopefully if we all take parts of it and share our insights we'll get it all covered. And hopefully TPTB are going to be making a list and checking it twice themselves.

So tonight I watched HoM after watching OTM last night. And here's my comments:
Liz says Sean is "like, ubiquitous." I say Sean is tailing Liz.
He did appear right after Dan and Duff left town. And he didn't have to go back to lock up after violating his probation by commiting a B&E (as we see in a later ep). I think he was out early to spy. If you watch and listen closely, he really is a punk, and he really could be just hitting on Liz to get info for the Fibbies. Now, with the earring, I think maybe Larek is preparing a new body because the old one got short circuited. Y'all can take all or part of these theories.

And watching HoM post-Departure and right after OTM, it is obvious that Tess is feeding Max all the "memories." TVPooh, wait till you see TL&V!

As for Tess being gone--it wasn't soon enough for me----and Ava why bring back Ava I mean its not like they will ASK HER ANYTHING IMPORTANT LIKE WHAT THE HEC IS GOING ON??????
I would PREFER to have Alex back myself!!!

-Tex and baby are fake (and we learn this early in S3)

-We learn more about Liz's "powers"

-Ava returns

-We know what the DB says SPECIFICALLY

-TPTB release Roswell episodes on DVD (Yea! for the petition.)

DeJ, there were FOUR pods each, in two bunches. We saw this in So47, we saw the pods themselves in the "Pod Chamber". The book showed four people. It's a group of four, in all the groupings. Even the four elements, if you go that route.

They are now short one: the short one.

So, my first instinct answer to your question would be Max In The City, because that's when we (and Max!) find out Liz is changed--plus the ep was just overall well done. My second (which could move into first place), of course, would be TEOTW.

A "final" comment on "Tess:"
Both of those eps have EdR playing Tess in her typical, annoying, "other woman" mode. She rarely got to do anything else, and I'm sure the negative vibes she got from many of the fans was hard to take. But she did her job, and did it well, not over-playing the evil part (except maybe in 4square), so that she kept us guessing. It seems like it would have been tempting to play the role as totally evil so she could separate her own identity from it more completely in both her own mind and the fans'. Maybe she just didn't play it that way because it was too painful to always be the evil one. Anyway, as I've said before, I think her character of Tess will go down in humanities history, and will earn her more 'breaks' in the business down the road.

Evid

I don't know how the writers can continue to ignore the very ideas they themselves keep introducing!

Laura

Or even on a planet where a few could mind-manipulate everyone else. See, for example, the Psi Corps of "Babylon 5". IMHO, there's got to be a way to resist, and to clear out, mindwarps. The Alien Gadget Brody has may simply be to protect Larek's puppet from such things...

On the other hand, suppose CongresSkin Whittaker's comment were exactly true: "Your kind doesn't rule anymore." Perhaps Kivar & Co. were rebelling against a regeme of mind-slavery? This ties in with the "Max is Evil/Kivar is Good" theories floated last fall. Max works well as an autocrat; see how he was in the Final Six, vs. his sister and his Great Love . His refusal to turn over The Granolyth could also have played to the other leaders as "It's mine, and I'm keeping it." Hence Larek's remark about Max doing it again.

Horrible, how one can pull out passeges where Max is Evil or Good. Also for so many other characters. One wonders if the writers know...

Re: the podsquad and its balance. No - I dont think 4 are necessary - I also think the leaky pod killed off the fourth. There were 3 aliens for years and they did fine - it was only after the "fourth" showed up that things went to hell in a handbasket.
I do believe that Tess was always an imposter. Anyone else notice that the flshes of Michael emerging from the pods and the talk between Max/Isabel about the pods during Departure was back in line with their PRE-Tess warp "memories" of the events??
Ava?? We dont know that she can mindwarp - we dont know that mindwarping is a "power" that any of the podsters originally had - it could be a semi-unique power. Courtney made it sound like Nicolas's ability to mindrape was somewhat unique - perhaps Tess is whatever Nicolas is (probably not a skin - as he never peeled and had different powers)

BTW - since I am a conspiricy theorist - I cant help but speculate that Kyle's mom left when he was 6 - the same time the kids emerged from the pods. It is possible that Tess actually WAS his sister and Valenti Sr her bio-father. Remember - in Convention it is established that Valenti Sr. had contact with Nasedo - and in the end - stopped Hubble from killing him - taking the fall for that protection. So - the Valenti/Nasedo/Tess connection has the possibility of running deep. I do believe Tess is gone for good - so we will never know the truth about who/what she was or where she really came from.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
...I cant help but speculate that Kyle's mom left when he was 6 - the same time the kids emerged from the pods. It is possible that Tess actually WAS his sister and Valenti Sr her bio-father...I suppose it would be too weird if Maria's dad was Tess's father? Nevermind, back to filling out job applications.

Can you say long-winded?? Sorry about that. With each past ep that I watch, I am just remembering more and more why I fell in love with this show and why I was drawn to this particular topic.

Not that I want to stir up any trouble , but what are the reasons why some mythers are so opposed to the idea of Liz as an alien (sorry I can't remember who says this - maybe Qfanny or shapeshifter)? Is this debate included in the introduction?

Evid[/B]
The flashes that MAx and liz each shared were their connection between one another about their lives.

The aleins are meant to pair up and procreate

In sexual healing the drive to mate was clearly seen with liz and MAx. so when, why did flashes of glaxayies and red giants come about if liz nor max never did see those things why was liz seeing them and not the flashes of her childhood and max's? did these GAlaxy flashes and the finding of the orbs come from within her or from max's? or Both?
When MAx and tess did have sex did u guys see any flashes?

Most important Liz Myth eps--ITA with Lorelai, Pilot, SH, MITC. Most important Myth eps period--Balance & MITC. Liz did play a key role in Balance, too, IMO
~Tas <---

Liz as an alien for me is a fun theory to read, but it's not one I subscribe to. Liz is the very person I identify with; the smallest of small town girls. Making her an alien would more or less make her relationship with Max less special. Throughout season one, the writers more or less used the "alien" concept to keep Max and Liz apart. I believe that the theory was developed as a way to remove the obstacle that kept them apart. Thus Liz is an alien, it's therefore ok for them to be together.

I believe the Max and Liz have a special bond. They are soulmates that must overcome the obstacles of the universe to be together. To magically remove those differences by making Liz an alien, or Max a human, lessens Roswell as a love story.

I really want to see Liz be with Max, but I don't want her to be changed or altered for her to achieve this. Love and only love should be enough.

To answer another question about the episodes that have the most to do with Liz Mythology, I think we are forgeting about TLV and MttM and The Convention. I also think that The End of the World was a good Liz Myth episode.

that's all for now folks, got to take the clothes off the line.

Well, because she isn't. The whole point of the show is the romance between an alien boy, and a human girl. The aliens have always known that they were aliens, strangers from somewhere else. Liz has always known that she is the smallest, of small-town girls, from right here. That's the wonder of the show, the romance that made it special (not spacial). Since the beginning of the second season, the writers have forgotten that Max isn't just a King, he's a good guy. A guy who is worthy of Liz, as River Dog wondered. Maybe next season, Max will do something to show that he is truly worthy of Liz.

Sure. Maybe I'll get a job writing for Roswell.

im wondering the v constelltion is within our own galaxy so the flash in sexual healing of the galaxy must be our own so the podsters home planet is within our own spiral galaxy

but then again the wirlpool galaxy also looks like the symbol on the orbs

Sure. Maybe I'll get a job writing for Roswell.

Reggie, wonderful post! I hope that you do try your hand at a fanfiction, I know I would enjoy reading it.

Last year I tried to write one myself, unfortantely, it didn't get too far, which is why it's not "published" anywhere.

Did you read my idea on the last thread about a scenrio for a script? This may be the wrong place to discuss it - I've never verntured over to the fanfiction boards.

Anyway, here's my idea...

"Play Act"

1) Liz (and everyone else) trys out for a play (Our Town), spurred mostly by Max's comment that Liz can't lie worth spit.

2) Maria and Kyle get cast as the leads, but opening night Maria gets stage fright and Liz (understudy) acts. During an onscreen kiss, Liz and Kyle both get flashes. (This is where I could us some help with composing a better way to explain why Liz and Kyle would get flashes. Ava is in town to help.)

3) Max gets into a bit of trouble when a new character comes into town looking for aliens. He tells her (as part of a joke) that he's an alien. This new character recognizes the joke, but never sees the truth in the coarse of the show.

4) Ava comes to town to assume Tess role and to clean up some loose ends missed in Tess's role.

I mean, I don't know. I suppose by now it would be impossible to have an actual episode that wouldn't contradict something that has already previously happened.

Anyway, I feel bring Ava back is necessary for season three. How does everyone else feel about that?

Here's the post:

I have a copy of Pilot (the version that aired) where there are cut scenes.
Namely, the edits are not as tight -

Liz admits to Maria that she was shot in the bathroom at the crashdown.

She also admits to Alex that she was shot in the music room ('twas a flesh wound).

Jen and Larry identify Max from yearbook records at the school.

And there is more stuff with Jonathan Frakes.

It's really odd to watch having seen the aired pilot so many times. The background music is different and you cannot hear, "We have to get read of her."

ALEX IS ALIVE

Max did bring Alex back!

In the coroner’s van Max revived Alex and received flashes. Alex, totally near death, is at a very low level of consciousness because of the mind raping. It it will take many sessions of Max's ministrations for him to recover with only a few gaps remaining. With Valenti's help and superb acting, Alex's death is successfully faked. Alex has been secreted away to the cave on the reservation with the help of Riverdog and possibly other protectors. Max must keep everyone in the dark about Alex until he learns enough from him about the evil one or until the evil one is revealed, confirming everything Liz said about alien involvement.

Why would Max do all this?

Max is not clairvoyant and the enemy was being subtle. Max needed time to get as much as he could from Alex, hence his impatience with Isabel, Liz and others. He also needed to protect Liz and the others from a head on attack by the enemy. Liz by her persistence to find the truth almost revealed Max's more subtle approach, but also helped reveal the evil one.

How does Alex come back?

Alex is found "wandering in the desert", suffering from amnesia. (Having been touched deeply by aliens he is now using more of his brain) Bad police work by Deputy "Sheriff" Hansen and an over wrought ex-sheriff (Valenti,wink) misidentified the body at the crash site. Later it is determined (without much question) the body was that of an unidentifiable car thief. Alex and the klan in a noble act of compassion opt to change the headstone on the grave rather than have the body exhumed.

Max, Tess and Tex?

Tess's pregnancy was a ruse. She didn't want to be with child but was looking forward to her life on Antar. Max was partially mind warped by her in a subtle move to gain his acceptance of the idea to go home (via the granolith). It also could be that Tess might be a shape shifted Lonnie with the real Tess being dead. The "quad" squad can still be complete with a loyal and more compassionate Ava. (Woe is Kyle. She will not settle for being anyone’s sister. Too cornball! )

I am actually convinced that they were on the road to Liz had alien origins in season1 for many reasons--one that stands out to me is the symbollic peeling out of the pod in the Riverdog episode while in Athertons basement--that to me was very symbollic!!! And there are other things I could name but I feel as though this season with the REINVENTION of ROSWELL(YUK) they went away from this idea (I don't like the lack of continuity but I think its there).

Either way I have no problem with Liz being completely HUMAN either---as long as the show treats HUMANS as IMPORTANT--something they haven't done a good job of in SEASON2 at all imho---its been like well if you don't have powers---we could not PROMOTE you this season---BULL!!!!

As for the episodes I feel almost all of season 1 really advanced Liz's Import to the alien myth--probably standouts definitely PILOT,LEAVING NORMAL, RIVERDOG, BALANCE,SEXUAL HEALING, TLV,M2TM, and Destiny
in Season2 I would say EOTW,MITC(for the obvious reason), HOM(yes because SEAN knows she is special even if Max has got his girls mixed up), CRY YOUR NAME, actually all the last 5 episodes with the exception of maybe OTM.

ALEX IS ALIVE

Max did bring Alex back!

In the coroner’s van Max revived Alex and received flashes. Alex, totally near death, is at a very low level of consciousness because of the mind raping. It it will take many sessions of Max's ministrations for him to recover with only a few gaps remaining. With Valenti's help and superb acting, Alex's death is successfully faked. Alex has been secreted away to the cave on the reservation with the help of Riverdog and possibly other protectors. Max must keep everyone in the dark about Alex until he learns enough from him about the evil one or until the evil one is revealed, confirming everything Liz said about alien involvement.

Why would Max do all this?

Max is not clairvoyant and the enemy was being subtle. Max needed time to get as much as he could from Alex, hence his impatience with Isabel, Liz and others. He also needed to protect Liz and the others from a head on attack by the enemy. Liz by her persistence to find the truth almost revealed Max's more subtle approach, but also helped reveal the evil one.

Very good!I like how you thougt!

But I think Max didn't know he healed Alex - even little.In same time Tess is MW-ing him.

MiTC has Ava's comments about Liz changing and her astral projection (via Isabel--so I'm not sure how convinced I am it was all Liz), but in TEOTW we see how important Liz is to the future. Since Liz and Max "cemented" their relationship so early, she didn't have a chance to develop her own life (and powers?) on her own. Also, Future Max knows Liz is the key--that's why he comes to her. TEOTW also showed Liz's strength. She has to give up what is most dear to her for, what she believes is, the rest of her life. This strength was demonstrated throughout the rest of Season 2.

I recently re-watched ARCC. As further proof of Liz's importance (not that we needed any more proof), it struck me that Max sought out Liz when he was disturbed by the visions of the killed father, even though they were apart after TEOTW. He needed Liz to guide him to the children for healing--and for restoring the "balance." Liz is essential in maintain the balance as we saw in "Balance" and in the last episodes when Max was all out of whack while being Tessed.

I don't remember who brought it up again, but I also wanted to share my thoughts on whether Liz is an alien.

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
I believe the Max and Liz have a special bond. They are soulmates that must overcome the obstacles of the universe to be together. To magically remove those differences by making Liz an alien, or Max a human, lessens Roswell as a love story.

I really want to see Liz be with Max, but I don't want her to be changed or altered for her to achieve this. Love and only love should be enough.

I agree that Liz is human. This is what makes the love story so intriguing and powerful. I agree that Max and Liz belong together whether or not Max healed her in the first place and that she is critical to the podsters. I like to believe that the "healing" and "reverse connection" were a catalyst for Max and Liz to get together and discover the importance of their bond. It would have happened anyway, but their actions in the Pilot facilitated it. If Liz has changed and/or has developed powers as a result, that could be very interesting and could add a nice element to the fantasy of it all.

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
...She also admits to Alex that she was shot in the music room ('twas a flesh wound)...

...And there is more stuff with Jonathan Frakes...Qfanny, that part with Alex would have made more sense, but I guess even then ol' JK was pushing our buttons on these things --you know, making us yell at the TV as only he can do it .
But Qfanny! Don't leave us obsessed RBIers hanging here. What's the "stuff" with Jonathan Frakes?
Okay, I just uploaded a "1st Draft" of the Pilot. Access it from http://ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology -- top of 3rd column.
But it's not the same as the one Qfanny has on tape. It's the "revised 1st Draft" from October of 1998. Cool . I wonder if JK usually does lots of rewrites, or if he generally gets it right the first time?

quote:Originally posted by GraceKel:
...which is where we get the TROJAN HORSE theory--not Liz is a horse for petes sakes ...Thank you, GraceKel, for setting that one straight! I am still annoyed about that R. Moore article about the horse theories, though I can see why the interviewer picked the most 'out there theory. Guess I shouldn't be complaining about our group's noteriety--might make TPTB sit up and take notice a little more often.

Ok, did I just totally not make sense? If I didn't I apologize. This illness of mine is fogging up the brain and making it difficult to produce a clear straight train of thought. Mayb, if ya'll are too confused, I'll come back when healthy and try to straighten it out. Until then, I must get to bed. so tired.

Notice too that Michael and Is--who are both very fond of the opposite sex--are not at all attracted like Rath & Lonnie. Could just be that "too human" thing and Ava & Tess were switched so Zan & Ava wouldn't have an heir. Maybe that's part of the original plot to have "Dupes" to dupe one of the alien factions into thinking the heir had to come from the NY4, but then switching (Tess/Ava or Vilondra/Ava or whatever ) to prevent it and instead have Max do it.
But then why didn't Lonnie get pregnant?

Gnite! Hope you feel better soon!

I just wanted to say hi and read threw some of your thoughts since my dissappearance. It appears I'm not the only one who's needed a little Roswell break - have to keep my head straight, ya know!?

Anyway.. happy mything!

Sorry for the mini-rant. Thanks again!

Been off camping in the rain (typical Pac NW) for the last few days! Lots of fun if you like to be wet constantly!

I'm caught up - and you have been having some great discussions. I too fall into the "Liz is Human" preference camp; however, I love the 'ancient common ancestor" theory that ties us ALL together somehow/way, combined with the "ancient prophecy" theory. It all makes total sense to me!

Well - I wanted to WELCOME all newbies and lurkers!

And say how nice it is to be sitting in a nice warm house with the rain outside right now!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Did you read my idea on the last thread about a scenrio for a script? This may be the wrong place to discuss it - I've never verntured over to the fanfiction boards.

Anyway, here's my idea...

Did you not see my "Skin & Bones" replacement episode? "Skins & Bone" is at: http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology/skinsAndBone.htm
Guaranteed sound science, and CHAD-free!

Yes, I saw your "Our Town- Roswell" suggestion, but I'm not familiar with "Our Town", so I didn't persue the thought. Your clarification is interesting... is there a plot? (Oh that's right, it's a Roswell ep. )

I fall into the Liz is human camp. I think her soul is what makes her special, not what species of body is holding it
~Tas

I fall into the Liz is human camp. I think her soul is what makes her special, not what species of body is holding it
~Tas [/B]

Tas - I don't read fanfic due to lack of time, but I've heard some of them are excellent, and that the writers could take a few pointers! I bet these fell into that category! I've thought this before - about FM, but never posted it! It just makes so much sense! And I like the "wedding ring" touch!

And I totally agree that Liz's soul and heart make her special!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

<beats head against wall> Nooooooo!
The ring would disappear at exactly the same time FMax did, and for the same reason: They never happened, because Time was changed so that they wouldn't happen. This would also be true of any messages FMax might have left; since that FMax didn't exist any more. Truth be told, Liz shouldn't even remember him... but that would interfere with the story. Or Liz is Special. Or both.

I agree with Reggie. Part of what makes TEOTW so heart-wrenching is that Liz has to take the whole thing on faith. She has no proof of what Future Max told her--only her instincts to believe the one she loves and to believe in herself. She has to have the strength to carry out what FMax entrusted her with.

I really hope TPTB include the audience in the conversation Liz has with Max about FMax in S3! I'm afraid it will be some kind of "Let Maria catch everyone up with what happened over summmer...." that includes "Oh, and Liz told Max about Future Max and ...."

Now that would be annoying!

I like your theory! I also belive Liz is human. I also believe that she and Max are connected somehow and are destined to be together. Maybe they are connected via Max's HUMAN side rather than his alien side, as so many have speculated.

DreamerAtHeart--I totally agree with you on this conversation about FUTURE MAX had better not be revealed at one of those dumb blackboard discussions of Marias--which I don't care for at all--but from what I understand they will not be using this anymore--lets hope. I must tell you that I hated the way Liz revealed herself about not sleeping with Kyle--I would like to have thought that Liz would take that to her grave and instead have KYLE REVEAL--I think it would have been more powerful---the la-di-da revealing and discussion was a big disappointment to me considering what a powerful turning point EOTW eppy had been--and knowing all the fans were waiting for this revelation more than anything---it was anti-climatic???? So I too am hoping they will do better with this sort of thing in Season3.

quote:Originally posted by HottieBehr:
Liz is very important to the A's, if Max haddnt saved her, she would have never known and they wouldnt have had to cover up and hide, but during this they found out more about them, so if not for Liz, they would still be hiding away. ...HottieBehr, Cute name . Welcome to our thread. I always enjoy the fresh perspective of newbies; it reminds me of the Jesus' admonitions to become like little children to see the truth (very paraphrased by shapeshifter ).

Qfanny, hope you might see this. I have a ***new*** Orb Theory! Okay, looking at SH with post-Departure hind-sight (I don't have to watch it, it's stenciled onto my brain), recall that the orb goes off just in time to stop Max from cementing with Liz. And what do we get from the Orb? Mommogram's Tesstiny and the EAs zeroing in on the podsters. So, logically, I would think Liz/Max cementing is a good thing (but not the kind of logic I want my teenage daughters to use! This is Roswellian logic ). Does that make sense, or do I need to clarify more? So then, I think that part of what FMax couldn't tell Past Present Liz was that Tess was evil, but they needed to trick her into thinking they didn't know it. Also, FMax believed that his love with Liz would ultimately triumph: quote:LIZ: So Max and...Tess are going to be together now.

FUTURE MAX: I don't know. I don't know anything now. This is a different world.

LIZ: I'm gonna be alone.

FUTURE MAX: Maybe. Maybe not. From now on, the future is to be determined. It's what've always said to you, Liz. We create our own destiny.The "I don't know" and "Maybe. Maybe not" were just because he couldn't let her know any more or it wouldn't have worked.
Did FMax know about the baby? I really don't know.

P.S.: "PastPresent"Liz or anyone else would be a character acting in the present during the past first two Seasons.

Reggie - I'm no expert in time-travel, but then I don't know anyone who is (at least if I did, I don't remember them!) , BUT I believe that anything that happens prior to Future Max disappearing remains - thus, writings, etc. would remain. However, in your approach - yes, if ALL trace of FM is erased, then Liz's memory would also be erased. Also, how do you explain the "wedding flash" in VLV? Since this is Roswell, and Sci Fi, they can make their own rules - I just wish they would make rules (any rules) and then stick with them!

Oh - BTW - did you know that "George W is an Alien?"

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

yes, if future max was to leave someting behind for liz it would dissapear becuase it never existed when the future changed.......if u were to go back in time to save a dead relative who has a grave stone and save her.... the writung on that tomb stone would be erased because she never died.........its like the grandmother paradox but applying to objects

Please, please, PLEASE let them remember and use this!!!
~Tas <--gotta this!

QueenA01--in TLV Max has a vision of Tess which takes place in the near future ---actually it occurs in the very next episode for REAL with Tess---which would make this a PRECOGNITION so I would like to think that Max's vision in Vegas was a PRECOGNITION but in WIPEOUT we also find out that Nicholas can pose multiple time dimensions all at the same time (its like being on mountain, pacific.....all at the same time) perhaps this could be true with past, present and future as well--maybe?

Starbox--I totally agree with you--the THREE were doing fine til the FOURTH(or supposed fourth) showed up--all hell broke loose since creepy Ed and Tess showed up quite frankly.

A perfect example of them still hinting that Liz could be alien in origin(although I am convinced she is fully human--NOW) is in Liz's telephone number was the fraction 1/8th--------1/8 of the pod squad--which QFanny posted for us. Also it also stuck in my mind something NEMO posted about 285S last season that Liz was saying "how scary it must be for Max, Michael and Isabel to not know their own histories and how scary it would be if someone discovered it b4 them" It makes you think how ironic it would be if Liz is the one in fact who does not know her own history hmmmm? And not knowing or understanding your own history also makes good drama and can certainly contribute to the impossibility of the situation as well.

Liz's importance will be her ability to unite the group as always through her intelligence and intuition so that they can all achieve a balance.

It just struck me how similar Max's breakdown by the trash cans in BIY (I think) was to Alex's breakdown when he visited Tess. Both of them completely lost control and were crying. However, Max didn't completely breakdown or break-out of the mindwarp. Maybe because Tess's powers work differently on humans and hybrids. Or because Alex was mindwarped longer and more continuously. (I remember some discussion earlier that Max was only mindwarped in spurts so that Tess could get what she wanted, leaving Max in tact, and convincing him that he 'loved' her for real.)

Forgive me for repeating this, but I believe hybrids have the freedom to choose their mates, and once they do so, it's for life. Now that Michael has opened himself to Maria, there will be no one else.

Max made his decision one day when he was in third-grade. He stepped off the bus, he saw Liz and that was it. Why? Because it's her. This question of Liz being an alien, or having alien essence is strange to me. Since when do we have to have a reason for loving someone? Do we question WHY Romeo loved Juliet? Why do we suspect Liz is anything but Liz? I just think Max loves her.

We know this freedom of choice does not exist on Antar. For one thing, the people are at the mercy of Khivar, who the Mommogram describes as evil. We know his Skins use mind-control, intimidation and strength to enslave the people. I'm sure it's no coincidence the pod-squad was sent to the Western world where individuals in our society have even more freedom of choice than in other countries. Somehow this mental freedom must play into the plan. They choose their lives, their mates, their destinies, and eventually Khivar will be defeated.

I think that Tess and Nasedo were out there, watching the podsters, mindwarping them even before they made their presence known. Season 1 is so much more interesting in light of Departure! I havane't watched T, L, V yet but here's something else I came up with
what if Harding/Nasedo was originally Ava's bodyguard or counselor on Antar and Tess/Ava was the one calling the shots? I had a lot more to say, but I forgot, so I'll keep this short. And bringing it back to liz, we KNOW Liz is important because Momogram said "you will know your enemies by the evil within" and Liz always said she didn't trust Tess. Heck, even Future Max didn't trust Tess. So, add Destiny to the list of Liz's Important Episodes!
OK I'm rambling. I'll shut up now!
bye

I want to HEAR Liz tell the whole group about FM...I want Isabel & Michael to acknowledge Liz for everything she has done and risked for them!

They should just start S3 off right at the rocks..all of them standing in the V formation!

Another thing...didn't someone (executive or something) say that the last 6 episodes of S2 were the most important? Maybe that's because Max was MW'd and it'll explain all the wierdness surrounding everyone.

Cantbehrit

quote:Originally posted by haniczka:
It seems to me that this freedom of choice is very significant and all the hybrids take their decisions very seriously.

Well, I'm not entirely certain it's the actual *freedom of choice* that's a factor in why the podsters are on Earth. I think the podsters were sent to Earth in order to find/learn the capacity to make RIGHT and/or "honorable" decisions. Said decisions the Royals were possibly not able to make... at least in their alien lifetimes seemingly.

Granted, this presumption is based on sources which could be deemed as less than reliable (Nikolas, Larek, Whitaker, Courtney, etc). However, I don't think it's nothing, that basically everything/all we've heard about the past life Royals so far hasn't been very pleasant.

Something else that was repeated rather heavily in Season 2 is to AVOID "history repeating itself". I have to wonder if one of the elements to have been avoided was the King "reuniting" with his Young Bride. Max/Tess are Zan/Ava as far as we've been told... Zan/Ava are a direct connection to the past alien life. An alien life that SHOULD NOT have been repeated seemingly acc. to several of the *warnings* given throughout the season? In light of the events of DEP and the revelation of this (supposed) "deal" Tess was seeing through, perhaps all those warnings about "history repeating itself" should have been given some credence! The podsters were told repeatedly not to "repeat history"... what does Max do? Sleeps and empregnates Tess of which almost gets them all killed AGAIN and seemingly by the SAME person that killed them once before? But then again, WHICH histories are being repeated here that shouldn't be?

Could the Young Bride have betrayed them in the alien life as well (something specced her quite heavily already)? Could the Bride have always been working for Kivar (something the pod creators never discovered or something only Nasedo knew)... it's only revealed in this hybrid/Earth lifetime? Because of the King's implicit, blind *trust* in his Bride... it was their ultimate downfall, COMBINED with the Vilondra/Kivar and Rath/Michael worshipping Skins issues?

quote:Michael, initially, chooses not to let Maria "see him" but then he decides to let her in.

And he seemingly stays for her... HOWEVER, not to take away from the Candy euphoria or anything... remembering what Courtney said about the Michael Worshipping Skins... a small part of me has to wonder on if Michael's decision to stay on Earth possibly had something to do with those Michael Worshipping Skins? These Skins DID NOT want protoMax to rule... had protoMichael not been so loyal, Courtney seems to elude that their alien lives wouldn't have ended they way they did. I have to wonder if Michael - maybe even on a subconscious level - was fulfilling what Courtney and the Michael Worshipping Skins want him to fulfill... go against Max or at least take a different path than Max (separate himself from him) and take his own path in life? Or maybe it was just Michael's good intuition kicking in... going to Twilo = death... and on some level, he knew going back home was dangerous, hence, he didn't go?

If Max/Tess/Isabel had left (M/I unknowingly to meet their deaths on Antar)... Michael would have been the only remaining royal/hybrid. Would the Michael Worshipping Skins have resurfaced then? If Michael learned about Nasedo's "deal" later, he would have realized Max and Isabel were dead. Seemingly, Michael would have HAD to have taken his position amongst the MWSkins... if anything, to avenge Max and Isabel's deaths. It's rather convenient imo... Michael is the ONLY Hybrid seemingly with this OTHER faction waiting for him to lead them. So even if Max and Isabel were assassinated by Kivar... Antar still might have had hope in Michael for "salvation" due to his small band of followers? A small band that would have grown and grown under his command until they were strong enough to bring back peace to Antar?

quote:Since when do we have to have a reason for loving someone?

Since Roswell's particular "Romeo" happens to be an alien/human hybrid and a reborn King from a far off planet... I think it leaves plenty of room to wonder if there is something "different" about Liz. We've been told literally from the Pilot that Liz is "special"... which leads some to spec that perhaps she does have "alien origins" of some kind. However, I'm also in the camp that prefers to think Liz is all human, but *special* for other reasons... and beyond said hybrid Romeo "loving her"... it's a very lovely reason no doubt, but in that I'm a Liz Mythologist, it just doesn't totally cut it for me

quote:We know this freedom of choice does not exist on Antar. For one thing, the people are at the mercy of Khivar, who the Mommogram describes as evil.

I have to wonder, however, if Zan was really any better than Kivar. We really don't know anything about Zan's rule, but based on what we've been eluded to so far... it doesn't necessarily seem that Zan was a very "honorable guy".

Larek called Zan a "visionary".... well some refer to Adolf Hitler as a visionary.

Courtney, one of the few aliens in this story who I believe genuinely tried to help them (and who they could have learned plenty from imo had she lived a little longer).... seemed to paint Zan's rule as a total disaster. Why? She said they were on the verge of a "golden age" but basically because of Zan's rule... it all went to hell. HAD Rath betrayed Zan... things would have gone differently and for the better (acc. to Courtney)?

Did Dupe Rath know about the Skins that "worshipped" him? Could that have been part of the reasoning of Dupe Rath's willingness to murder their Zan? He knew that there was this whole other faction out there waiting for him and willing to help him gain rule of Antar... only IF he betrayed Zan (which DRath certainly accomplished, with Lonnie's help)?

Melodious

And I totally agree with you, we don't know ANYTHING for sure about anyone or anything that has been said because all the information that has been revealed has been revealed by aliens who MAY have their own HIDDEN AGENDA--we know for sure that SOMEONE heard Max say in Michael's apartment "I don't even know who I am" when he was with Liz in Sexual Healing, we know this because in M2TM someone was taping Michaels apartment--we still don't know who this was---but what handy information to know that Max doesn't even know who he is, he could be KIVAR for all we know really LOL!!! and Kivar could be coming for Liz(VIlandra)LOL!!! Well we just don't anything for sure yet.

Haniczka--well it seems I am the only one lately who is open to this idea anymore, we use to have many Liz mythers who supported these ideas as well but it seems I am outnumbered--LOL but thats okay I can take it
I would probably have to write a book about season1 to mention everything so I will not--but ....

"Winters end, promises of a LONG LOST FRIEND, speaks to me of comfort

And Max was only six years old and in kindergarten when he stepped off the bus and did a doubletake at Liz and I believe she looked back at him----later in the eppy we find out that Liz didn't actually KNOW him til the third grade but that vision they show I am convinced was supposed to be Max in kindergarten because Liz mentions she had that cc dress in kindergarten-----how many six year olds do you know who fall in love for life as six year olds? So I interpreted this as some kind of recognition of souls of a LONG LOST FRIEND(yes "I'm Still Me")--somewhere in time these souls have met b4---whether it was a prior visitation to Earth and met here b4, whether on Antar(geez have they called it Antar yet in the show? LOL) or it could be that Max's human dna donor has some connection to Liz or ancestory in the past. I see this as a recognition---there is NOTHING FORCED HERE between Max and Liz----the only one that ever brought up the word DESTINY is Nasedo and Tess(agendas???)

Don't get me wrong I am open to many other theories as well but I think handled in the right way this could work out quite well because the tragedy of the situation is that they have no idea this is the case. And how did Grandma Claudia seem to know that Liz was meeting her soulmate---that seemed pretty clear to me that she did. Oh well enough for now LOL!!!

However, in my theories in concerns to the Mike Worshipping Skins / Michael as King ... they have a tendency to put in conflict the Dreamer and Liz Mythologist in me. A part of me believes that Liz *IS* important in some crucial way... but is Liz important to just Max or is she important to the "King"... whether that be Max or Michael? If Liz has something to do with being the "King's" mate (not necessarily Max's)... and the Michael Worshipping Skins want Michael to be King... then the MWSkins probably won't be Dreamers. Granted, this is probably just my own paranoia, but I can't help but wonder.

I must admit however... I've always been a tad polarist (even though I've always been more adamant on friendship between Liz and Michael... but I've never totally negated maybe a little flirtation on the side either). Liz/Sean really does nothing for me... but Liz/Michael. That's interesting

Although I can't say I'm not realistically nervous to the real prospect of Liz/Michael possibly in S3. Was it not you Tasfya who made the observation that latter Max and Michael had a fairly obvious role reversal from their season 1 personas? Might this role reversal eventually include Season 1 Max's chosen mate? Once again, this could just be my paranoia, but who knows.

Melodious

Now I'm rambling, so I'll just stop
~Tas

It seems to me like she knew that Max was in the chamber getting ready to change the bones in the Las Cruces lab.

The scenes just flow with Tess doing her mindwarp..CW has this "evil" look and almost anxious. Like she knew Max was supposed to be there and she was nervous that "the plan" wasn't going to work. As if she was working with Tess on this.

Also, at the end of this episode when Max asks Liz if she could ever "go back" she says she can't pretend. Then he touches her and she has a flash of them kissing...nothing more just a "reminder" of what they had and what they need to go back to.

Cantbehrit

4 Square: I beleive that max wasnt mindwarped into thinking about the past that past was true......but im also wondering if our true podsters were born first or if the dupes were. because if the dupes were born later then that would explain why tess was born later too?

Max to max: When nesado revealed himself to tess in the pod chamber...tess said he killed people...nesado replied "do u trust them over me" im starting to beilive that nesado only killed sheila hubble and the special agents not the others stated.

when max and tess were in the desert she gave him a vision of them making love when he finished tess opened her eyes i believe this was the mindwarp

...when liz kissed nesado max she saw a vision of sheila hubble..no other persons just sheila hubble...but also i slowmode it i also discovered a desert scene with running water near the sand dunes..what the hell does it mean.....

...why did nesado help liz get away from the special agents after he stated that she would be needed by the special agents for infomation about max. in the end he said that they wouldnt need her.

White room: there were 4 aleins two alive two died..one escaped being nesado...i think that two guides were assigned to one of the pair of pods and two to the other.

And so, I'd like to see Max realize that he is "just" a boy, and quit trying to be a King: ordering people about, etc. Liz fell in love with a boy, and as he returns to his true station her love will return as well.

As King, Max is an ass. He is "unworthy" of Liz, as RiverDog warned. As a boy, he can grow to become the man he should be. That Man, can become a King.

---------

Also, since QueenA01 shared some obervations, I thought I'd share one of mine: Car Crash Coverups.

I watched Harvest the other day and noted that the skins used a car crash to explain CW's death. When this was mentioned on TV, Tess says, "A car crash." When watching, you can almost hear her thinking "What a great idea!"

Tess used a car crash to cover up Alex's death.

And the podsters were going to use a car accident to cover up their sudden disappearance.

Coincidences?

(feebly) (... very feebly) my point was the ability to make the nobel right decision (and who wants to accomplish the opposite?) verses having someone mindwarping your decisions for you. The moment Tess arrives on the scene, whether on her own or under someone else's influence, that freedom has been hindered.
I really thought you'd all fall asleep on my freedom post, not attack it. I prefer the latter.

GraceKel, please don't feel you're in a minority. I've read your theory quite a bit, even on other threads. I just like to think of Liz as being special in a way I could aspire to be... oh quit laughing... Liz is the only character on the show who has three men who gave her their hearts. Is that because she's an alien, has alien essence, or she's just incredibly easy to fall in love with? Her friends, Maria and Alex, are equally devoted...because they're coherent and don't blab senselessly on the internet at night <!> ... must take my vitamins and go to bed... (HH)

Personally, I agree with everyone that has said that Max, Jr. will show up as an adult. I'm speculating that is one of the reasons why we were shown that the Granolith is capable of time travel.

I just got my second star! I'm a Fan !

Cantbehrit

I really thought you'd all fall asleep on my freedom post, not attack it. I prefer the latter.

I'm sorry if I gave off the impression I was attacking your post HH, nothin' but love for ya' hun! I was just .. uhm... "elaborating" a little. However, my long-windedness WILL probably get me in trouble someday.

Melodious

Yes, keen observation by Tess. You know, when she first met Max, he was a year younger than he was in DEPARTURE. Why in DEP was he suddenly a "boy"? Perhaps because Tess believed, possibly postHOM until the explosion in DEP... Max was finally "acting" like a King, "accepting his destiny" ( :cough:actinglikeanenormousass:cough:... makes you wonder what Tess considers "kingly" behavior... what was King Zan's behavior like?). Said behavior Tess was *encouraging*....
"This is where you belong, Max...up here with the world at your feet. Like a king."

As Tess' King... Max is a huge a$$. But as Liz's boy... he's an honorable guy. Give me the boy over that King *any* day of the week!

quote:And so, I'd like to see Max realize that he is "just" a boy, and quit trying to be a King: ordering people about, etc. Liz fell in love with a boy, and as he returns to his true station her love will return as well.

Liz fell in love with an *honorable* boy... Max needs to get his honor back, he always had his youth, no question about that. That naivete of youth was basically his downfall.

Melodious

And so, I'd like to see Max realize that he is "just" a boy, and quit trying to be a King: ordering people about, etc. Liz fell in love with a boy, and as he returns to his true station her love will return as well.

As King, Max is an ass. He is "unworthy" of Liz, as RiverDog warned. As a boy, he can grow to become the man he should be. That Man, can become a King. [/B]

Reggie - I don't know if I would have put it the same way - but ITA with your post! Max has a LOT of growning up to do. Remember the scene in Toy House - where Max and Iz have fought, and he goes to see Liz, even though he has recently broken up with her. She is staking the chairs, closing up the Crashdown - and I love that she is so straight with him about how controlling,etc. he is! I want to see more brutally honest scenes like this between Liz and Max! I also want to see some effort at rebuilding their friendship before they jump into a romatic relationship! Yes - I do want to see the romance, but I want to see the work and effort made to rebuild the foundation upon which the relationship will lie. Finally, I want all the Pod Squad to acknowledge Liz's importance to them and what she has sacrificed on their behalf - only then will they truly be a Scooby Gang that can work together to defeat their enemies.

Essence - YES I do think the search for the son will hinder Max's development and maturity! BIG TIME! (I hate the idea of watching this so much in Season 3!)

Mel - Welcome Back! I pop in and out, taking days off now! One thing I wanted to discuss is the Mickey G worshipping Skins. Given what we learned in Harvest and Wipeout re: the deterioration of the Skins, don't you think most of the Mikey G worshipping Skins would be dead by now (or shedding really bad! ). Okay - Nicko's existance is a huge CHAD! But ignoring Nicko's ability to remain around, I question how the Mikey G worshipping Skins could still be around - and if they are, the writers better explain How? they managed it.

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Now back to something else than a computer!

Except one more thing:
In SH when Max said, "I don't even know who I am," I always thought Jb flubbed the line--that it was supposed to be "what I am." So then, did the writers know way back then that Max was going to Zan? I mean, that he was going to be a particular alien, not just "an alien?"

Okay, I'm back again! I'm watching CYN. I wish we had the script for it. Anyway, when Isabel first "talks" with "dead" Alex, he tells her to stay in Roswell. He says he'll be right there, and if she left, he'd miss her. Then he says he has to meet the boys in the "Band." He says it pointedly and knowingly.
Soooo, new theory:
Liz will tell Max about FM, and they will discover a way to undo what FMax did--well, sort of....enough to bring back Alex.
And since in the original timeline Tess went away anyway...

I know, we are locked into the quest for junior, but I thought you guys'd like it.

BTW, the cold food sequence makes much more sense if you watch it post-Departure and in order after OTM and then HoM.

Reggie GREAT post! ITA 110%. Max needs to learn to be Max, the 18-year-old HS senior on Earth, and whoever he really is, BEFORE trying to become a King. The Mommogram said they needed to learn enough. Well, to me that does NOT mean still being in your teens!! You're only beginning to have any real knowledge at that point.

K, I've been having some random thoughts and lucky you, I'm going to share them!

--Alex's Sweden slides. Alex had a boatload of slides of places he'd never been to, with people he'd never met. I think that Tess used the slides to create his memories of Sweden. Like, "This is the mountain you snowboarded on," etc. I remember when WAF first aired, Arctic Lurker posted at Cherishing that the slide of the Northern Lights is a typical postcard type shot (she actually lives up there). I think that this would provide Tess with a reasonable foundation for memory creation, and then every time Alex looked at his slides/photos it would reinforce the mindwarp.

--Why give Alex a girlfriend. I think this was to prevent Alex from hooking back up with Isabel. He was tapping his fingers on his guitar when he was on the phone with her, and only after that did he get triggered by the Thai food + the pic of him & Leanna. For whatever reason, Alex's feelings towards Isabel weakened the mindwarp. I'm not quite sure why, unless it was to ensure that Iz wouldn't get any flashes from him.

--Tess in CYN. I watched this a couple of times, once with an eye to Max's hands again (fidgety ), and once with an eye to Tess. And I found it intriguing. When the group goes to the coroner's and Max goes to the van, Tess' facial expressions are very agitated. But when paying close attention, I found that I was getting the same impression that I had the first time I watched the ep, even knowing now what had happened. And that is, that Tess looked hopeful. I think she truly did not want to kill Alex. She probably had no idea that her mindblocks would wear off. And after Max came out unsuccessful, it was like her face crumpled. Her voice was ragged when she told Max to go after Liz, and she was extremely rigid when Kyle pulled her away to go home. Everything from OTM on (chron.) speaks to me that Tess wanted Max, but that in order to get him she crossed lines that she did not want to cross, and that she felt remorse. It doesn't excuse her or anything, but she's always been a bit of a tragic figure and this reinforces that.

--Nicholas surviving the Firestorm. At the end of Harvest, we see that Nicholas' new husk did not blow up; it's sagging against its glass tube. So, it's possible that the Skins were able to rig up something to allow the few undestroyed husks to mature. Now, we know that Nick can do everything the pod squad can do x 1000. So, he should be able to create an energy shield like Max's. Possibly even a strong enough one to survive the Firestorm. Especially if he has some way of achieving power-theft. In Harvest, Tess gave Max her strength, to flow into his shield. If Nick can do that, channel others' strength into his shield, only he can TAKE their strength against their will--power-raping, if you will, he could have channeled the energy of all the other Skins in the school into his own personal shield, and thus survived the Firestorm. Since his husk wasn't destroyed, then he could have slipped into it once it was matured.

Damn, but I'm in good form tonight! Thoughts? Reactions? Attacks?
~Tas

[/B]
thats what i was trying to say before liz is human but the forth podster in meaning....

sure tess and Ava are the forth podsters but maybe they are all defective amybe they are both decoys for the true queen....

or...the antarians discovered the traitor when it was too late with the pods sent to earth... so they prohetised the birth of a" Special person" the podsters waited about 40 years to hatch at about the same age liz was....

also in sexual healing liz and max were talking about their destiny together.

Tas, liked the Nicko The Power Ranger Stealer idea.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm back to CYN disecting: Here's Alex's last *key* words: quote:...it's about time
...turned around
...better nuke it
...sick of this
...always cold
...why does life have to be so hard?
...why does everything have to be so wrong?then to Isabel when he dream walked her from what I am thinking is another dimension: quote:...I'd miss you if you were gone
...Not going anywhere--except to band practiceThen we see Sean in his alleged court suit on the phone--fishy to me.
And finally, we have the delivery boy and Valenti, both saying:
Like the End Of The World
and finally, Liz and the Sheriff talking about "theories." This last word, I think, is a clue to us RBIers to look for theories in this ep.

So, maybe Ping, or Mel, or Tas, or anyone who's better at explaining what I see between these lines can explain it.

But I see a real EOTW connection, and think that that rubber band theory on time warps is gonna snap us back to pre-Alex's death, but without the Tess scenario.

And where's Ava?

gnite all

I like that idea. So, Michael is meant for Maria, and Isabel is meant for dearly departed Alex (boy did she get a raw deal) and we'll just ignore Tess. I'd hate to saddle Kyle with that destiny (her being a murderer and all).

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:
So, maybe Ping, or Mel, or Tas, or anyone who's better at explaining what I see between these lines can explain it.

I would love to explain it, but I can't say that I even follow it. I thought for a minute there I had it, but I don't. I like the rubber band theory though. Espcially if we could go back to save Alex without all that messy Tess brouhaha.

But Liz told CW that she hated Tess because she was after her "man"....and didn't CW know it was Max? Why would she think Vilondra was after Max the King? Wouldn't that be her brother?

I was confused when she said that line.

Cantbehrit

Believe it or not, my earlier post was rather along the same lines as what Ping and SS are discussing. Shapeshifter says the Antarians have a soulmate on earth mirroring their existance on their own planet. My theory is that the hybrids find this person and communicate to him/her that they have been chosen by letting them "see" into their souls. I guess to me, that moment of communication is the spritual cementing, or marriage. That's why I don't think anything could ever really break up Max/Liz, or now Michael/Maria. Iz. however, never let Alex "in." She realized she loved him on some level after he was gone, but that's not the same. So according to my theory, she's still available for her soul mate, or "great love" when he happens to come along. I think Tess was horribly mis-lead by Nasedo and she chose Max. That was her undoing. I appreciate your observations regarding her character, Tasyfa: very perceptive.

Mel, you know what they say about "don't dish it out if you can't take it!!" I love it when you make me re-think my ideas...not that you're right or anything... -HH

I believe the reason why Tess was so pissed at Liz is because she knows that she can't grow with Max...and that she can't help Max grow....at this present day and time, only Liz can do that...notice this is the only time when Tess is yelling at Max...when her ass get caught

But enough about her...my point is that I beileve that Liz is the balance for Max, period...no if ands, or buts...and this holds especially true if their IS NO MINDWARP, because if that's the case, then it ws just sex with Tess...totally different from Max and LIz...

Two things I noticed about Max and Liz....in SH, did anybody get the feeling that it was like Max and Liz were getting the strong urges to "mate" with one another, almost like a primal urge...but yet...Tess has to implant those memories into Max's head for him to even acknowledge her presence, but yet for him and Liz, it was very natural...

Also, Max made Liz glow...and Liz made him glow in the inside Yet, we saw no glowing from Tess or Max to Tess???

Do you think that maybe whoever created the clones, probably figured that Max would meet his soulmate and then they continue to let him have his urges, so when the right human girl came along...then these urges would be surpressed no longer....so maybe this was a test, they either one of them knows about yet...

See, Liz could technically be the 'second chance" for Max...What I mean is that I see Liz as Max's SECOND CHANCE at being the best leader he can be....I look at it from this angle...Max was sent to protect Earth and be with Liz...Max was sent for Liz....

Tess not only "impeded" Max's growth as you stated ava, but she *degenerated* him imo! She made him LESS a King than he was *prior* getting so close to her. She's like an anti-Liz. What Liz can give Max, Tess takes away.

quote:But enough about her...my point is that I beileve that Liz is the balance for Max, period...no ifs, ands, or buts

Word! However... the next part...

quote:this holds especially true if there IS NO MINDWARP, because if that's the case, then it was just sex with Tess...totally different from Max and Liz...

Well... I do believe there was at least *some* mindwarp happening at one time or another. I really don't think Stepford Max would have appeared simply from stress alone.

Like you said ava, Max & Liz in SH almost seemed to be honing in on some mutual primal urge to "mate"... while Tess had to basically force these *urges* into Max via mindwarps. If the sex is real (blah), then it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it's revealed next season Tess was doing a little *forcing* here and there to make the tex happen. Not that this would excuse it if it were real... but I have to wonder if Max was saying (moaning, screaming) Liz's name anytime during the tex? Any hurt Tess would have felt from such ministrations... she brought upon herself. She KNOWS Max loves Liz, she's always known it. She knew it the whole time she was (possibly) warping him, she knew it almost as soon as she hit Roswell and she says it right out in DEPARTURE. "Why couldn't you ever feel that about me?" Well Tess, because you're simply NOT Liz and you never will be.

quote:Also, Max made Liz glow...and Liz made him glow in the inside Yet, we saw no glowing from Tess or Max to Tess???

This is probably more Mel-paranoia, but post-Sof47... the SH "glowing", for me, is all the more intriguing. We're finally shown what a pair of ALIEN creatures look like.... and what are they doing? Glowing. Max made Liz physically *glow* in SH (the hickey, glowing streak down her arm - maybe the fever Mrs. Parker noticed on her daughter also had something to do with the "glowing")... we learn in MITC that Liz has been "changed" by Max. Now I'm not saying Liz is an alien or ever will be (not like Max or fellow podsters anyway), but it wouldn't surprise me if Liz is a little more alien now than she was prior the Crashdown shooting. All *intense* contact she's had with Max since has probably "changed" her even more (the "glowing" in SH, just one example).

He changed her (not intentionally I'd assume, but he did)... why? For what purpose? To be his perfect mate? To make her compatible with him? If this is the case, could this be a reason for EOTW... the change in Liz needs to be gradual and in the alternate EOTW, L&M "cemented" too soon? This distorted Liz's "change", eventually making her incompatible with Max (she can't give him a child). Post-EOTW, since the cementing didn't happen... Liz is still "changing" (slowly, but surely)... in this timeline, Liz will eventually be able to give Max an heir? The heir SHE alone can give him (not Tess)? Via this unintentional "changing" of Liz... Max *chose* her... the "change" Ava makes us aware of proves it? Max - on some level - chose Liz to be his mate WAY before the Crashdown shooting ever happened... he's carried this *choice* with him all his life, this *choice* only making itself known when Max heals Liz. The moment he put his hand on her, Max chose Liz to be the future and *one and only* mother of his children, his royal heirs? He KNEW on some very deep-seeded level, Liz (because of how she balances him and because she's LIZ) is the only one worthy to be the mother of his heir(s)? ::ugh, talk about paranoia, I'll stop now::

I still can only imagine what might happen between M&L when they finally DO "cement".

quote:See, Liz could technically be the "second chance" for Max...What I mean is that I see Liz as Max's SECOND CHANCE at being the best leader he can be....I look at it from this angle...Max was sent to protect Earth and be with Liz...Max was sent for Liz....

IMO, Liz is Max's LAST chance at being a good leader. Possibly his ONLY chance... a chance he didn't have in his alien lifetime and a chance that's been endangered due to the resurfacing of the Young Bride. I can't think all the warnings about preventing history from repeating itself could have been for nothing. DO NOT repeat history... DO NOT do the SAME things you did in the alien life. INCLUDING getting involved with the same people... trusting the same people.

I watched THE CONVENTION this morning the first time literally since it first aired. Post-DEPARTURE.... all the ominous references to the "shapeshifter" take on a whole new meaning imo.... or my first sentiments after watching TC are resurfacing. The shapeshifter, all the way up until after Edsedo happened along... was *ominous*, almost evil. This shapeshifter killed *a lot* of people, innocent people (namely Sheila Hubble, the enigma of most Liz Mythers).

If knowing Liz makes Max "human" (and THIS was the purpose or a very important one in why the podsters were sent to Earth)... yet Max's people are this lot of traitorous murderers who have no qualms killing humans literally on whims... then there's just something very wrong with this picture. Granted, Nasedo could be just one very bad example of the lot of Antarians... but perhaps we should have suspected his intentions way back in TC, maybe before that (and the whole time he was worming his way into the podsters lives). We've known about a murdering aliens since the PILOT. ... so how exactly did we ever learn to trust (or could we ever learn to trust) the curly blonde who was raised by one of these murdering shapeshifters? Tess, perfect example of *guilty by association* - and from this association, it created the person who was capable of some pretty despicable things to get what she wanted, namely Max Evans, but ultimately, going home.

Melodious

Personally I liked it very much. Particularly the contrast of Liz being first very detached and saying to Max when he revealed to her about the sex “Oh” and the baby “It’s your personal life”, very “Liz the sensible”, “Liz the reliable”. But then, when he says he is leaving for good to Antar with and because of Tess, she realises that she’ll never ever see him again, she feels the loss and she bursts out. Nothing mattered anymore (not even the killer around). Then she becomes herself again: “take me home”. She started it, she ended it. She loves him and she’s definetely human. It was very touching and very well played.
Elena

Or *remind* him of Isabel. YES! I'm still on the "Alex might be the father of Tess's baby" boat. Granted, Alex was supposed to be in *Sweden* and there are presumedly a lot of blondes with long hair in Sweden (but then of course, Sweden didn't really happen)... so perhaps it's just a coincidence Leanna was also a fair haired beauty like Isabel... yet I can't think it was just a coincidence. I can't. IMO, Tess wanted Alex to have a girlfriend *similar* to Isabel as possible (yet obviously wasn't Isabel)... Tess would certainly know what Isabel is like and could warp this image of an Isabel-clone into Alex's head. Someone Alex would quickly become attached too.... someone he'd quickly develop very strong feelings for.... strong enough for Alex to *want* to sleep with her (because Leanna was *so much* like Isabel - Izzy, who he couldn't have)?

Might there be a connection to Liz's dream from TSAP to Alex's situation? Liz dreams of this guy named "Brad", who she kisses... Liz states she's "with Brad now", but Max (a REAL character) states, "Brad doesn't even exist." Max is real, but Max is also an alien who can make it rain rose petals. Alex was with Leanna... but Leanna doesn't even exist. What was real... was an alien (Tess?), Leanna was just an illusion? Tess who can *mindwarp* you to see rose petals... but they're no more reality than they were in Liz's dream.

quote:Nicholas surviving the Firestorm--

...Now, we know that Nick can do everything the pod squad can do x 1000...

...In Harvest, Tess gave Max her strength, to flow into his shield.

In concerns to Nikolas surviving the firewall from WO... my theory is a bit simpler than yours Tas (although I do like your theory). In HARVEST, as you said, Tess *gives* Max her strength to *strengthen* his shield. The very next episode, Tess miraculously creates this firewall... and she says she doesn't know how she did it (supposedly). IMO, Nikolas *gave* Tess his strength just as Tess gave Max hers in HARVEST.... Why you ask? It was a proposition by Nikolas. Tess got a taste of how powerful Niko was at the beginning of WO when she warped him. Well what if Niko KNEW Tess was warping him, but he let them go, possibly because of the old Nasedo deal? He thought, because Tess was raised by Nas (which he knew somehow?)... they could get T on their side. Niko lets Tess FEEL his power in WO, once when he let her mindwarp him, next when he let her *borrow* his strength to make the firewall (and "save" her fellow podsters, which also conveniently ingratiated herself to them). The "revival" of (or going forth with) Nasedo's plan doesn't come until Lonnie and Rath abduct Tess in MITC... this is when Niko tells her that he can help her go home (and even get a taste of Max before she has to leave), he'll let her USE his power to help her fulfill the plan, but she MUST go through with the plan. Or the deal is off? Too tempted by the prospect of going home (and the reality of being stuck on Earth in a body she NEVER claimed as her own, amongst a people she never claimed as her own or claimed her in return)... she goes through with Nasedo's deal.

This doesn't mean she's not remorseful for what she's done... but once again, the prospect of going home was far too great for Tess to turn down. By the time she agrees to go through with the deal... any second thoughts come too late. So she really DIDN'T want to kill Alex (because of her new found humanity over Season 2)... but because of the deal she agreed to, she was too far gone amongst the enemy to turn back. She HAD TO go through with the deal, all the way - and even if she didn't WANT to kill Alex, imo, she WOULD HAVE regardless if she realized her minderase didn't work. She might not have *wanted* to do it... but she would have anyway imo, anything to insure she went home.

Melodious

And I love it when you challenge mine ...and of course you're not wrong (ahem) ...

I love this thread

quote:Originally posted by Zero:
don't you think most of the Mikey G worshipping Skins would be dead by now (or shedding really bad! ). Okay - Nicko's existance is a huge CHAD! But ignoring Nicko's ability to remain around, I question how the Mikey G worshipping Skins could still be around - and if they are, the writers better explain How? they managed it.

I recall the end of DESTINY Zero... didn't it seem like there were *beep/flashes* going off all over the country, even the world, beyond some little dusty Arizona town? Something tells me, and I could be stretching here totally... but what if Niko's Copper Summit faction wasn't the *only* Skin/alien faction on Earth? Whitaker's diary seems to state that the Skins were "branching out", making due with their lives on Earth... escaping Copper Summit. Also, if there were other (secret?) Skin/Alien factions out there - particularly bands of Michael-Worshipping Skins - they might not *all* be like the Copper Summit Skins, with an expiration date of 50 years - or possibly never originated from that group at all.

Niko's power/survival could be proof of this... what if there are other Skins/Aliens out there just as powerful, maybe moreso, than Nikolas? Who knows what the life expectancies for these *other* Skins/Aliens are... 50 years, 100 years, 200 years? All sorts of aliens with all different ranges of power and life expectancy. Aliens that might have even come to Earth BEFORE the 1947 crash (and there were alien crashes happening all over the place prior the one in New Mexico - alleged crashes in Siberia and Brazil come to mind particularly). There's also the tie to ancient Earth cultures. Although, admittedly, I do find the prospect of centuries old aliens kind of silly Anyway, Nikolas might not even know about these other bands of Skins/Aliens. There could be podster (at least, Michael) allies hiding in the shadows the whole time the podsters came out of their pods, but who knows what the writers will give us

Melodious

This is from Dark Horizons.com. Good news for us that don't have UPN yet!!!
UPN Air Dates: UPN50 reports the "Enterprise" pilot has been pushed back from August to September 23rd, "Buffy" will air on October 9th and "Roswell" goes up October 16th.

---end---

I hope this is good news. It gives Them more time to think about what they may be doing.

I think Tess was in on it with CW. CW and Nicholas were working together (according to Silverhandprint). And also according to Silverhandprint, CW knew that Isabel is Max's sister, so there could not have been any mistaking Tess for Vilandra. Therefore, either Tess was in on it so that CW could lure Isabel/Vilandra to CW and try to get Isabel to betray Max (as she supposedly did on Antar, according to CW and Lonnie) or CW used Tess (unbeknownst to Tess) to lure Isabel. My guess is that Tess was in on it given the outcome of Departure.

Or it could be as simple as they were using protection. Hey, now there's an

So true. Thinking back to BD when Nasedo(or at least I'm assuming it was Nasedo ) relit the calling card Michael had sent to him earlier in the night, then him throwing the picture of Max,Izzy, and Michael into the fire I feel was a huge sign. Why do this?? Why do this if he is there protector?? Now it could've been a way for the TPTB to show a flare for the dramatic with the arrival of Nasedo, but I still think that him burning that picture indicated that his plan all along was to destroy the podsters. Then there's the deceitful way he officially arrived in town, pretending to be Mr.Harding, when he's supposed to be the podsters protector. In TLV,FS,MTTM, and even in WR he seemed to be evil and not necessarily an allie to the podsters.

I tend to wonder if there was a "deal" at all, and if Nasedo really wasn't the real Nasedo, but actually a soldier for Khivar sent to Earth with the podsters (posing as their protector. The Antarians thinking he's an allie, trusts him with the royals lives) when the truth is, he's an enemy. Always has been always will be. His whole plan all along being to make sure the bride gets pregnant with the King's heir and return the heir, the Royals, and the granilith to Antar. He could've fooled Tess too, making her think he was the podsters true protector, but that he made a deal with Khivar for his own selfish reasons, he gets Tess to go along with the plan, her thinking that in the end she will live, when the truth is she will die with the other podsters once Khivar gets what he wants.

Or the other thing could've been that "Nasedo (Mr.Harding) could've killed the real protector and assumed his role as "Nasedo." Riverdog thought that he saw the real Nasedo kill Atherton, when in actuallity it was Mr.Harding. Before killing the real Nasedo (perhaps this is the person or persons the real Nasedo told Riverdog he had to hide from) mindrapes him (we never found out all that the shapeshifter could do. I'm thinking he was just as powerful or even more powerful than Nicholas) discovers the location of the podchamber (maybe not the exact location, but a proximity of were it is) but by the time he finds it Max, Isabel and Michael are gone, but Tess is still there. His plan is still salvageable, and from there, it is fully implemented.

quote:In concerns to Nikolas surviving the firewall from WO... my theory is a bit simpler than yours Tas (although I do like your theory). In HARVEST, as you said, Tess *gives* Max her strength to *strengthen* his shield. The very next episode, Tess miraculously creates this firewall... and she says she doesn't know how she did it (supposedly). IMO, Nikolas *gave* Tess his strength just as Tess gave Max hers in HARVEST.... Why you ask? It was a proposition by Nikolas. Tess got a taste of how powerful Niko was at the beginning of WO when she warped him. Well what if Niko KNEW Tess was warping him, but he let them go, possibly because of the old Nasedo deal? He thought, because Tess was raised by Nas (which he knew somehow?)... they could get T on their side. Niko lets Tess FEEL his power in WO, once when he let her mindwarp him, next when he let her *borrow* his strength to make the firewall (and "save" her fellow podsters, which also conveniently ingratiated herself to them).

I agree. I think Nicholas tapped into Tess' power and used it to his advantage. He allowed her to feel his power so that he could bring her over to his side, make her see she could do any and everything when aligned with him and using his power. But I've asked myself, how did Nicholas disappear and appear dead (rather a dust of flying skins) like the other skins?? I'm thinking that Tess' firewarp started by Tess' own initiative and then Nicholas joined his power with hers and that's why Tess felt that she "tapped into something" and that she "lost control", why because she wasn't in control. Nicholas controlled the firewarp once he joined with her power, but once the warp was over, he created a warp of his own that showed the skins, skins flying everywhere, appearing like they were all destroyed, when in reality, Nicholas walked out of that school right in front of the podsters, but invisible to their eyes.

quote:didn't it seem like there were *beep/flashes* going off all over the country, even the world, beyond some little dusty Arizona town? Something tells me, and I could be stretching here totally... but what if Niko's Copper Summit faction wasn't the *only* Skin/alien faction on Earth? Whitaker's diary seems to state that the Skins were "branching out", making due with their lives on Earth... escaping Copper Summit.

I also agree with this. Perhaps there were another set of skins to be harvested that weren't in Copper Summit, but another city, another state, with their own energy source, therefore they weren't destroyed by the fiasco that happened with the harvesting skins in CS. Those skins harvested on time, which would mean there are more enemy skins, as well as Michael worshipper skins out there. Like you stated CWW wrote in her diary that after a while many of the skins moved away from CS, away could be anywhere, perhaps all over the US, all over the world. And wasn't it Courtney that destroyed the energy souce in CS so that the harvest wouldn't happen there?? Though her skin was there too, why would she want to destroy the skins of the other Michael worshippers, and if they had defected would they even be welcomed to come back and pick up their new skins?? It's no secret that Nicholas doesn't mind killing his own. So I'm thinking that the Michael worshippers possibly had there own stash of skins that needed to be harvested, and perhaps Nicholas had a back set someplace else too.

Btw, It's great to see you back!!!

I can't believe that after everything - Liz(Departure)

~Sheri

As far as Nicko is concerned - I agree that the kid on the skateboard at the end was suppose to be an "eww - was that Nicko?" moment. BUT I still want some sort of 'on-air' justification - not a lot of talk that doesn't add up at all.

I hope I'm making sense??? To me - when we the viewing audience have to go to great lengths to "explain" how or why something happened without much on-air support - it is a CHAD! That is why I believe these are CHADS.

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

~Sheri

But how could they go back without the granolith? Of course, the granolith has to be more than just a one-way transport device. But from what we saw at the beginning of TEOTW, it could be pretty tough to use it the same way again.

Maybe we could find some patterns to who has actually been mindwarped or minderased by Tess and what the outcomes were.
Here's what I come up with off the top of my head. PLEASE feel free to correct me and/or add your thoughts.

"Mindwarp" (MW) -- Short-term illusion of different events taking place than what is actually happening. Usually serves an immediate purpose.

"Minderase" (ME) -- Long-term changing of what someone is supposed to remember. Used to cover up an event that took place.

Humans
Liz -- Never MW or ME (From evidence in the show. I'm not including specuations: i.e., FMax.)
Maria -- Never MW or ME
Alex -- ME for a long time in Las Cruses
Outcome: Eventually broke out of it from too much and w/ help of triggers
Kyle -- MW to help put Alex's body in car. ME to forget it all happened.
Outcome: Broke out of ME by looking for triggers and finding them.
Sean -- Never MW or ME
Sherrif Valenti -- Never MW or ME
Amy DeLuca -- ME to forget events of OTM
Outcome: Almost broke out of it w/ trigger (the G.W is an Alien shirt?)
Brody (as Brody) -- Never MW or ME
Group of people in accelerator lab -- MW for a couple minutes
Pierce -- MW to believe communicators were working
FBI Agents -- MW to believe they were talking with Pierce

Podsters
Isabel -- MW as a demonstration in S1.
Outcome: Tess explained it to her.
Michael -- Never MW or ME.
Max -- MW in S1 as Tess was "flirting" (in her own warped way) w/ him.
Outcome: It had a strong effect on Max, but I don't think she ever admitted it was a MW.

Other Aliens
CW Whitaker -- MW in Skin&Bones in the accelerator lab (So we know Tess could've MWed her in Surprise if she wanted to.)
Outcome: Nothing.
Note: Tess MW a group of people at the same time.
Nicholas -- MW in Wipe Out when gang was hiding.
Outcome: Tess was surprised w/ Nik's mind's strength.
Ida (Nik's Mom) -- MW in Wipe Out when gang was hiding.
Brody (as confused Larek) -- Tess attempts to MW him, but is unsuccessful since his mind is so "full."

It seems like no one "breaks out" of a mindWARP. They're fast, immediate and don't have the long-term effects to be overcome.
Also, it seems like natural mind-manipulation may be a female power. Isabel has it as well as Tess. Liz's connection with Max in MiTC comes through her. Even though Nicholas has mind powers, he had to touch his victims and it seemed like it took more effort for him.

That's what I have so far.

(Warning - mini rant ahead - proceed with caution. )
I do have to say that I am a little tired of being pulled back and forth on issues:

Tess is bad
Tess is good
Tess is bad

Liz and Max
On again
off again
on again

Let's just get past all this poo and move on to some great storytelling - like we had in season one with Liz and Max saving the world

I don't think that there was really any grand plan with the shapeshifter. The shapeshifter was suppose to be an anonymous being. A fiction that was created in pilot, however, one writer expanded on the "other alien" from pilot to a shapeshifter... The Convention really stresses the fact that the podster don't know who the shapeshifter is... And everything we are told up to Harding points to, at very least, a morally corrupt shapeshifter. In many ways, Harding as evil works a lot better than as an ally.

And yes, we also know from Ava's journal and TEOTW that there were two shapeshifters....

I am still of the opinion that Future Max was a MW and that time travel is not possible. Actually, it's a big relief... It's probably just a matter of time until Liz breaks free from Tess's manipulations.

But how would FMax have known about PMax coming to serenade Liz and about him coming to Liz's room the night of Gomez. There wedding in Vegas in which Max got a flash about in VLV?? And what about the scene in the beginning with FMax and FLiz in the granilith chamber. Unless there was also manipulation of Max going on, off camera to make sure the whole mindwarping thing worked.

I tend to think that perhaps mindwarping or some sort of manipulation went on in the future, that caused FLiz and FMax to modify the granilith so that they could change the past. In EOTW they seemed so sure that changing the past, by destroying their relationship and pushing PMax toward Tess would save them. Why were they so sure??? What would make them take such drastic measures to change the past??? Could someone in the first timeline have manipulated the situation and made FMax and FLiz think that Tess was the key, maybe even made them think that they were on the verge of losing the war (it's always darkest before dawn) when in actuallity Tess wasn't the key, and FMax was far from losing the war. Whomever uses FMax and FLiz's grief over losing everyone they love (Michael, Isabel, and others) to implement the elaborate plan to change the past so that their scheme can be implemented. According to Tess, Nasedo's always had the deal with Khivar, so I'm sure the same plan was present in the first timeline, but look how things went. That goal was no where near accomplished by Nasedo or Tess. Maybe FTess manipulated the situation in the first timeline, similiar to how she manipulated Alex in this timeline, so that her goals could be accomplished.

I would like to hear more about your theory on FMax being a mindwarp. It's sounds very intriguing.

I can't believe that after everything - Liz(Departure)

Well, first of all, I think the granolith is more than a ship. They way it shot out like a rocket makes me think it is also a power source. That might be what they used to go back in time instead of the actual ship. As for the granolith being used once already, well that was in an different time line, in this one it has not been used in that manner. I am sure my little thought has a lot of holes, as does everything to do with Roswell!

~Sheri

I think when they were in the circle, I think it represented the innocence of the kids...but now, with the V formation and the addition of Kyle, I think this represents a new era...a more mature group ready to begin their journey...

See, it all fits...M&M are "one" so there so close together...the two most important women in the King's life are now at his right and left sides, Liz and Isabel, both wearing black like their Max...and Kyle, who has been working on his "powers" who used them...

See what I'm saying, it's looks complete, the enemies have now been estab.

"Let me be clear, Nicholas. I don't give a damn whether or not you get the granilith. I'm going home."

Well wouldn't she NEED the granilith to go home?? This is why Tess couldn't have gone home in the granilith that wouldn't make since.

Cantbehrit

Reggie, thank you for the Oct. 16 bulletin. I do not like it, but there it is (as Lonnie would say). Anyway, I may be moving around the end of August, and I actually was worried about missing Roswell's season premier. Guess I'll have to find something else to worry about.

haniczka, I like the idea of the cementing taking place when they see into each others' souls, and I think we have some evidence of that being so. But then why did FM say sex made them inseparable? And then why did Tex not make Max & Tess inseparable? Maybe there is the seeing-into-each-others-souls bond that makes the sex cement? Hmmmm...that sounds like another classic JK theme.

Essence and Dayneen, about the fireblast in WO: Tess was doing a mindwarp that supposedly got out of control. We thought Maria's shortcircuiting the alien time warp device boosted Tess's power. But maybe Nicko also boosted it in the way forest fire fighters light backfires to protect an area (himself).

DreameratHeart, I may be "out in the parking lot" beyond left field with this theory, but I think Liz was Mindwarped into seeing Tess and Max kiss in the rain, and Max was warped too. The later kissing in HoM was real though.
BTW, I had another old theory that Maxcedo kissed Liz to get even with Tess kissing Max, and that Tess was really Nasedo's "reconstituted" wife whose essence he rescued from the Special Unit.

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SciFi Mom and anyone else, I am going to try to redo my CYN post while I'm still awake this time with commentaries since no one else seemed to be able to read my mind.
Also, thinking more about it, I don't think Colin Hanks is returning, and to have Alex come back in a new body might trivialize his death as others have noted. So I am going to interpret it as Alex Is Really Dead, but it could have gone the other way.

Bringing up the lines from CYN one more time, here's Alex's last *key* words with comments:

"...it's about time"
Yes indeed, my dear RBIers, it is about time and its maniputlation

"...turned around"
FMax's visit turned things around

"...better nuke it"
'Nuking' could mean using a powerful device to do something to fix the altered future

"...sick of this"
Why did Liz feel sick in that episode when she was walking alone in the dark and looking over her shoulder as if she thought she was being followed?

"...always cold"
Well, maybe not 'always,' but Alex was very cold when Max touched him in the morgue van *because* he'd been dead for a while longer than assumed.
And, Valenti Sr. said it was cold in the nursing home, that they were trying to kill him...
**And** remember the cold food Alex ate in Wipe Out? Sure sounds like some time warping going on.
--Remember in MTD when Alex wakes up and asks how long he was sleeping?...
It was never really clear how long they were really there...
--was it really all night, or was there a time warp?

"...why does life have to be so hard?
...why does everything have to be so wrong?"
These lines are later repeated by the delivery boy, and so have added weight.
I think it points to Alex's death being the direct result of the altered future from FMax's visit,
And, I think it questions the judgement of FMax and Liz's actions in the past present.
Also, I think it implies that it can be changed for the better.

Then to Isabel, when he 'dream walked' her from what I am thinking is another dimension:
"...I'd miss you if you were gone..."
This would have to fit with Alex still being alive in the version of life that would have been without FMax and the time travelling

...Not going anywhere--except to band practice
This line too, fits with the comment above, and he put such emphasis on 'band practice.'
'Practice' could refer to doing it over again till you get it right,
And 'band' could mean the podsters and friends.

Then, we have the delivery boy and Valenti, both saying Alex acted like
"...it was the End Of The World,
This could mean that Alex was simply the martyr that died instead of everyone else in the TEOTW's original scenario.

Then the delivery boy says Alex said:
"...why does life have to be so wrong? Why does everything have to be a lie?"
What is a lie? Well, the mindwarping about Sweden and Las Cruces.
Maybe Tess just warped him into thinking that he needed to lie to everyone about being with Leanna in Sweden.
That would explain why the coverup was so thorough--Tess didn't have to mindwarp anyone but Alex, and then Alex did the coverup.

And finally, Liz and the Sheriff talking about
"...theories..."
Excuse my ego here, but I think that was a clue for us to sit up and start cooking our theories.

So, if Colin Hanks comes back or a new Alex does, it's set up for it.
It just all sounds so much like Wipe Out.

Just editing to add a picture. Alex could be in the tube part of the time map:

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And on the subject of MWs MEs, and MRs, Brody craved pepperjack and Alex ate a lot of Thai food, and Mr. Evans wants his spicy mustard.
Maybe Mr. Evans will be a human cell phone?

(Warning - mini rant ahead - proceed with caution. )
I do have to say that I am a little tired of being pulled back and forth on issues:

Tess is bad
Tess is good
Tess is bad

Liz and Max
On again
off again
on again

Let's just get past all this poo and move on to some great storytelling - like we had in season one with Liz and Max saving the world

Essence - I TOTALLY understand where you are coming from! I was just explaining why I consider this stuff CHADS! While we have a wonderful group of Mythologists here, the average viewer probably doesn't watch with our "anal" approach - soo ... AND I love your mini-rant!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

In fact, mindwarp or not, Max was consistently pulling away from Tess, especially thru BIY, and he never once told her that he loved her...

Liz on the other hand, she's special...she's his souldmate...snd like I said before...maybe the ones who created the clones KNEW, HOPED and PRAYED that Max would find his human soulmate...hence he did, which is Liz, so that the mistakes of Antar, would not be repeated!

Although I find this intriguing shapeshifter, I don't know. Thanks for putting the image in my head of Edsedo Harding and Tess as sort of jaded lovers, thanks a bunch!

Going along with Edsedo's sexual escapades .... I tend to forget that Edsedo was "diddling" Whitaker. Edsedo, who was apparently working for the Skins all along. It's always bugged me how a supposed protector couldn't even figure out he was *diddling* the enemy. Not to mention Whitaker - who was seemingly not as powerful as Nikolas - was so easily able to kill said protector. If the "protectors" can be killed so easily, then what good are they?? Granted, Whitaker attacked him seemingly by surprise... but still.

quote:"...it's about time"
Yes indeed, my dear RBIers, it is about time and its maniputlation

Or "it's about time"... Liz needed to investigate and NOW before Tess managed to whisk away the podsters to Jelloland. Liz was working on an unknown and short time frame to really figure out what happened to Alex, before time ran out.

quote:"...turned around"
FMax's visit turned things around

And this probably has nothing to do with it...but...
--The song playing when Liz and Max kiss for the first time is called, "We haven't turned around" by Gomez (Heatwave).
--The song playing when Alex and Liz are looking at Alex's "Sweden" slides is "Turn" by Travis (TSAP).

Granted, not straight out references to *turning* in the story, but I find the music they were picking this season seems to be even *more* fitting in the storylines then it was last season.

quote:"...better nuke it"
'Nuking' could mean using a powerful device to do something to fix the altered future

Or the Skins were seemingly "nuked" in WIPE OUT... possibly by the same means Alex was warped. Tess was able to warp Alex so thorougly via Nikolas's borrowed energy? The Skins were "nuked" in WO because Tess' firewarp was being strengthened by Nikolas?

quote:"...sick of this"
Why did Liz feel sick in that episode when she was walking alone in the dark and looking over her shoulder as if she thought she was being followed?

I'm not sure where you're going with this ss, but if it's where I *think* you might be going .... if Liz is somehow "resistant" to mindwarps (granted, that's quite arguable, but who knows)... could Tess have been trying to mindwarp Liz in the above CYN scene? Due to Liz's *resistance* to mindwarping (and possibly due to the strength of the warp, Tess is still using Niko's energy?)... Liz's physical body reacted to the very powerful warp? She looked like she was going to throw up and it kind of hit her suddenly, just after walking out of the *Valenti* house (Tess could have heard her whole rant to Valenti and T could have been watching/warping Liz from a window). As you mentioned SS, Liz looked around almost like she felt someone was watching her. She looked scared... afterwards, Liz goes to MAX... because she "didn't want to be alone". Liz went to Max possibly due to some inherent knowledge that if she were in trouble (possibly the "alien variety" of trouble) ... Max would protect her? Max is the only one that Liz knows would protect her? Liz "sensed" (alien?) trouble on some level, hence she went to be in Max's presence... even though said presence I'd think would make her MORE than uncomfortable due to the infamous kiss at prom. But she HAD TO be with Max at that moment, why?

quote:"...always cold"
Well, maybe not 'always,' but Alex was very cold when Max touched him in the morgue van *because* he'd been dead for a while longer than assumed.

It also snowed TWICE in Roswell, NM this season. It snowed during Christmas (and conveniently, Alex wasn't there - he was in Las Cruces being mindwarped to the point of lunacy). The Christmas snow, although it certainly gave off the Christmasy vibe... was a rather painful foreshadowing of the future of the Roskids? Everyone together, MINUS Alex.

It snowed when Iz made it snow to "cheer up" Max. Said snow also proceeded a story about Max's dead pet guinea pig that was killed by a neighbor's dog. Ok, I'm probably REALLY stretching here, but could Izzy's bringing up Max's pet killed by a *neighbor's* dog been an indirect reference to how Alex died? Alex - a good friend to Max, killed by someone *nearby*/*close to the group*.

There's also the Robert Frost poem introduced in CYN which white snow is a metaphor for death.

quote:--Remember in MTD when Alex wakes up and asks how long he was sleeping?...

Or maybe it was just foreshadowing of Alex's "big sleep" (death)? One of the only scenes we see Alex in BEFORE we know the mindwarping begins... he's sleeping. Or this MTD scene represents the *mindwarping* to come.... Alex is basically *sleeping* during the warp... his conscious mind is shut off to the world around him, clouded by the mindwarp? Like a perpetual nightmare he can't wake up from (although when he finally did, it led to his death - "big sleep").

quote:"...why does life have to be so hard?
...why does everything have to be so wrong?"

I think it points to Alex's death being the direct result of the altered future from FMax's visit

And, I think it questions the judgement of FMax and Liz's actions in the past present.

Also, I think it implies that it can be changed for the better.

"Why does life have to be so hard" = Future Max/Liz's life and ultimate decision to "change" the future?

"Why does everything have to be so wrong?" = Besides it being the question Dreamers across the globe are asking JK (ahem)... Everything "has to be" wrong... to discover what's right? Max had to be pushed towards Tess (the WRONG path)... in order to find the right path, the true path (Max discovers Nasedo's deal and Tess' part in it - hence Tess is unmasked. Tess is removed from the picture. Max is free to be with Liz again?). The podsters had to go the WRONG way first to find the RIGHT way?

quote:Then to Isabel, when he 'dream walked' her from what I am thinking is another dimension:
"...I'd miss you if you were gone..."

Tess sees the flash of Max kissing Liz in DEP... Tess tells him, "(smugly) Don't worry, you won't remember her where we're going." Some have suggested that the podsters weren't only going to DIE when they hit Antar, but their minds would become enslaved somehow (possibly the podsters used as puppets to Kivar's advantage - the podsters are only the front, while Kiv has the true power on Antar)? If Isabel went to Antar, she would have "forgotten" Alex... hence Alex tells her, "I'd miss you if you were gone"... If Izzy's mind was enslaved once she got to Antar, she wouldn't remember Alex anymore (her subconscious manifesting as Alex in order to prevent her from "forgetting" him and everything else)?

quote:...Not going anywhere--except to band practice

Or... Alex will "live" just as long as he remains in Isabel's memory? Memories that would have been lost to her forever had she gone to Antar?

quote:Then, we have the delivery boy and Valenti, both saying Alex acted like
"...it was the End Of The World,
This could mean that Alex was simply the martyr that died instead of everyone else in the TEOTW's original scenario.

I agree with this SS... although it was Liz who went through the pain/sacrifice of being a "martyr" in EOTW... it was Alex who ultimately met a martyr's fate?

quote:Maybe Tess just warped him into thinking that he needed to lie to everyone about being with Leanna in Sweden.
That would explain why the coverup was so thorough--Tess didn't have to mindwarp anyone but Alex, and then Alex did the coverup.

Unless the Leanna warp had some greater purpose than just a cover up? Tess WANTED Alex to have this relationship with "Leanna" while he was in "Sweden"... hence Alex is remembering the continuous warp of "Leanna" and relationship with her. Alex was having sex with "Leanna"... but Leanna isn't Leanna. Leanna is Tess? Tess was having sex with Alex in order to get pregnant? Knowing somehow that she couldn't get pregnant by Max and she *needed* a baby in the deal? Kivar was too powerful to fall for a mindwarp, but yet not smart enough to figure out the baby Tess is pregnant with ISN'T an heir?

Ok, here's a big old piece of craziness... but what if Nikolas is the Roswell podsters' protector? "Nikolas" might not have always been the protector, but if the protector is a shapeshifter like Edsedo. What if the protector killed the *real* Nikolas and took his place? This protector is obviously playing *everyone*. Although that would mean that possibly the "Nikolas" that Whitaker refers to in her diary - the one that murdered "his own" - is actually the protector murdering Skins *impersonating* General Nikolas. The protector "mindrapes" Max in WO merely to keep the guise up (protector *already* knows where the Granilith is).

"Nikolas" *helps* Tess ... but in actuality, it's the "protector" that's tricking Tess to unmask Nasedo's deal and her own treachery? Perhaps the protector *knows* Tess has involvement in some sort of treason, but s/he doesn't know what yet exactly? This elaborate plan was to unmask the exact treachery and traitors (and eliminate them)? The protector mindwarps the sex, mindwarps the baby... so Tess and Max are BOTH being mindwarped, the sex and baby aren't real? Tess left Antar believing she was really pregnant with Max's kid... when she gets there, *surprise*, mindwarp wears off and she realizes she was NEVER pregnant and someone else was warping her. Kivar kills her (or recruits her).

Although, then of course, this would mean this "protector" was willing to sacrifice Alex's life for the good of everyone else... unless Alex isn't really dead (and they'd probably have to recast him, because like SS, I'm also pretty sure Colin won't be back)?

Melodious

I don't have time for anymore, but I'm PMing you.

And yes, I agree that it would be Tess following Liz from Valenti's.

Well I was rewatching some of the episodes from season 1 last night, and I noticed that in Ask Not when Kyle and Liz are talking by Liz's locker, the door behind Kyle has the room no. 305 on it! Coincidence or not?

Just wanted to point that out

*GalaxyGrl*

I'm still confused by why some people are still debating whether or not FUTURE MAX could have been a MINDWARP!! Don't get me wrong, it would make for a great storyline to explain everything that has gone wrong this season for poor Max and Liz. But the only reason I doubt this theory is because how would a Mindwarp, resulting in future Max appearing to Present day Liz, come back and know exact details from the past if it was all fact due to a mindwarping that is fake to begin with? When I say exact details I mean how future Max knew when his pesent day self would appear below Liz's chimney balconey and begin singing to her. Or how he knew when to stop discussing the matter with PRESENT LIZ because he knew her father was coming! And if the writers ever intended to go with it all being a mindwarp, why would they have started the show off fifteen years into the future, showing us a FUTURE MAX AND A FUTURE LIZ trying to get back to the present?

Unless the person FUTURE LIZ WAS WITH WAS NOT FUTURE MAX AT ALL!!! But I doubt this theory for the same reason I doubt the MINDWARP THEORY. How would an enemy, even an alien enemy, know the exact intimate details of their life in the past and know exactly when they will occur!

No, I think I am going to have to stick with this theory for now! I think future Max coming back had more to do with them than Tess. She turned out to be a traitor anyway at the end of DEPARTURE and left, so I don't think Future Max's mission was completely about Tess leaving. I think it was just that she left too early before they were able to discover she was a traitor. Think about it, they probably never would have found out about the deal Nasedo Made with Kivar, and maybe they found out about a TRUE TRANSLATION TO THE DESTINY BOOK after it was too late to do anything about it! So maybe Future MAX'S MISSION was in fact to prevent an action on Tess' part when she left that resulted in damaging the Aliens' destiny and eventually leading to the end of the world. Now that they know she is a traitor, they won't need her in the group because they are already warned and prepared for her.

Afterall, FUTURE MAX did say to PRESENT LIZ that he could not tell her everything only what she needed to know. So to me, that implies that there is more to the story than the audience probably knows!!!!

Who is Shelia? Have we seen her or is she only on FF?

------------
Click my blue house!

I have a few thoughts and I was wondering what anyone thought of this...(its probably been discussed in the past but I'm trying )

Ok...in Blind Date, Michael sends the signal to "Nesedo". He does this without Max's approval & Isabel wasn't so sure about it. We all know how Michael is and how he just jumps into everything - it usually doesn't work right. He was making a huge mistake in doing that and basically its all Michael's fault we got Tess! Damn Mike!

So then at the end who was the person standing at the signal burning the pic of the 3 of them? I really believe that this is Nesedo...who is NOT there protector.

Ok this got me to wondering. Did Tess call Harding Nacedo before or after she heard that name used by the others? Could she have adopted the name or is that what she always called him? Or are you saying she learned the name by reading Max's thoughts?

I think it did also signal "Tic Tac" who is their protector (but where did he go) and he is the one who killed Hank. Here is the thing with him. Nesedo always needed another person with him (or something like that) to take their form didn't he? Because Tic Tac just took form in the front seat of the car & by him killing Hank changed everything for Michael making it all better from then on.

I seem to remember Nacedo changing into Pierce in the bathroom at the crashdown. I didn't see anyone in there with him(I could be wrong about that though.8^)

Could Nesedo of murdered Shiela Hubble trying to stop her baby's essense, or what ever you call it from going to Liz? That he knew she was carrying "the key"?? Or that she was important in some way.

If this has been discussed what have you all concluded about all of it?

Cantbehrit

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BUT, the difference between the shapeshifter in the station wagon (the one who pretended ot be Hank) had to take something (like Tic Tac's) he does this every time but Nesedo never does it once. Hmmm???

Cantbehrit

This totally makes sense to me. I agree but I have a question. What is it that CW said that Tess should've revealed to Max? I don't remember anything about that.

BUT, the difference between the shapeshifter in the station wagon (the one who pretended ot be Hank) had to take something (like Tic Tac's) he does this every time but Nesedo never does it once. Hmmm???

Cantbehrit

[/B]

Maybe he finally discovered Colgate! Just kidding, I got nothin'.(Going back over in my corner now).

I think that Tess and/or Nacedo had the crystal all along or retrieved it like they did the Destiny Book before the other podsters knew who they were. Remember how Edcedo has all of those antiques, maybe some of them are alien artifacts.

By the way, what happened to all of that stuff? It's not at the Valenti house? Also, thinking back on those episodes, do we know why Edcedo and Tess had so many pictures of the Roswell gang? Didn't they "know" already that it was them?

I'm tired. So many theories, so little time. Summer is almost here!

I thought he said WOUND. Did you see WOMB in the transcript? That would be terribly interesting.

Well I was rewatching some of the episodes from season 1 last night, and I noticed that in Ask Not when Kyle and Liz are talking by Liz's locker, the door behind Kyle has the room no. 305 on it! Coincidence or not?

Just wanted to point that out

*GalaxyGrl* B]

Great catch! Coincidence? Who knows, but those numbers sure show up a lot!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

GrhmLz - I agree with you - I don't think that FM was a mindwarp, and I think the whole think cause Tess' deception to be know earlier and has allowed Liz to grow. I also don't want Roswell to end up using mindwarps/control/erasers as the fall back to tie up all loose ends. It could be over used very FAST in my opinion, though I'm hoping th whole Tex was one, and the baby is fake!

A Fan - Sheila is Sheila Hubble who was Hubbles young wife, murdered by we are to believe an alien, found in Harding's memories Liz flashes on and a look-a-like to Liz!

Okay - time to start a new thread - see you all over on #47!! Please take all future discussion over there!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

~Tas
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Can you please, please tell me where you read this one. I would love to read it. If you could post the link or info I bet others would like to know too. TIA

On the other hand, suppose CongresSkin Whittaker's comment were exactly true: "Your kind doesn't rule anymore." Perhaps Kivar & Co. were rebelling against a regeme of mind-slavery? This ties in with the "Max is Evil/Kivar is Good" theories floated last fall. Max works well as an autocrat; see how he was in the Final Six, vs. his sister and his Great Love . His refusal to turn over The Granolyth could also have played to the other leaders as "It's mine, and I'm keeping it." Hence Larek's remark about Max doing it again.

Horrible, how one can pull out passeges where Max is Evil or Good. Also for so many other characters. One wonders if the writers know...

Ok I could totally be wrong but...aren't the powers part of their human half. I thought that someone told (maybe it was in S1 finale) that their powers were the ultimate use of the human brain. That they possess what the human brain will become. That this was to protect them. If this is true then they don't have these powers on their planet and would explain why the skins can't just bring them home or MW them into returning.

Am I wrong?