There is never a dull moment on this thread – especially recently! We appreciate the new episodes to digest – especially with the refocus on Liz’s importance to the storyline! (Thank you JK and RM! ) Even though Heart of Mine, Cry Your Name, It’s Too Late & It’s Too Bad, Baby It’s You, Off The Menu and Departure have many inducing scenes, we have been provided tons of stuff to chat about and dissect! !! Plus – we have seen so many newbies joining into the discussion - which is wonderful!

Feedback is always welcome! Just PM me. I will let you know when I up-date the Introduction so you can head over there to read the new information when I add it in.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Background

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY!

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz's importance to the pod squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! (Especially lately!) We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember – NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome!

Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection

Consequence of the Connection - the Change?

Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really?

Granolith - How does it fit in?

Destiny - Liz and Max!

Follow Your Heart

Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

Chakras

Einstein's Light Cone

Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV

The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up!

The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things?

The Catalyst - Liz!

Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in?

Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run"

Hero Journey - Liz's Path

I wanted to add that I believe the events of the last few episodes (especially, HOM, CYN and ITL&ITB, and some of OTM and Departure) play right into Liz’s Hero Journey!

Grandma Claudia - the first connection?

I just wanted to add here that many of us believe the fact that the necklace Liz wore to the Prom had been Grandma Claudia’s is VERY SIGNIFICANT! Finally, a tie into GC, her Native American connection and Season 1! Now – if we could only figure out “what” the necklace was! Maybe this was a foreshadowing that GC will be the connection to the aliens that we always thought she was/is! And the computer guys from the UNM commenting that the alien symbols look Native American in origin – with Michael getting Season 1 flashbacks – was GREAT! But – unfortunately, we are going to have to wait until Season 3 to see if this all plays out!

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Don’t let the current state of affairs (pun intended!) concern you – Liz and Max are soulmates and lifebond! The Truth Is Out There! And Liz will find it! (Even Maria agrees with that!) And though Liz did figure it all out in time to “save the day” for the Pod Squad – the question of whether Max’s actions irreparably damaged their connection is still hanging out there – and how will Liz deal with not only the revelation that Max had a relationship with Tess, but that there is a baby out there that is the product of that relationship? Talk about bad choices!

Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection?

Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars!

Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Numbers keep cropping up that seem to fall into our 2, 3, 4, 5 groupings. Like the bus that Liz misses is 33_5, the bowling alley lane is 32, Max remembers 3 moons, Alex’s funeral and the concert is on 5/5 and the song at the end of Cry Your Name mentions the number 3! In Ask Not Kyle stands in front of classroom #305. Also, the truck driver had 1 drink, 3 hours before! There is no way that this is just a coincidence! I will try to add as many of the numbers caught to the Intro that I can – but let’s just say that there has to be a meaning to the reoccurrence of the numbers – especially 5! Liz’s cell number is 505-555-0125! (and as Qfanny so intelligently pointed out .125 =1/8th – Ummm…! In BIY – Iz runs “5 or 6” miles now? And “Ray” was seen by his roommate at 4 am, they were the only 2 people around and they were only 5 feet away from each other. Alex’s dorm at UNM was in “Quad 4.” In Departure, the number 67 is prominent in Kyle’s room – any reference to the fact that after Alex’s death, there were 7 Scooby’s, but with Tess’ betrayal, there were actually only 6 true members of the Scooby Gang?

Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz?

Skins - What lies below the surface?

We keep wondering where Nicko disappeared to – and Lonnie, Rath and Ava for that matter. Is it just a matter of time before Kivar shows up? Many of us thought that Tess was up to her “old” tricks of mindwarping – or mind control as Liz so aptly asked about – but was Tess acting alone? Most of us think not! Tess’ actions were the result of a deal Harding made with Kivar 40 years ago, but they also resulted in the death of Alex. But why did she feel she needed to warp Alex into deciphering the book? I still believe there is more to it because of the elaborateness of the deception! And, was the sex/baby real? All indications point to it, BUT the mind control and the power of illusion could play in it all be a hoax to convince the Pod Squad they had to go home, and Tess ultimate “card” to convince Max to let her go without being harmed.

Shapeshifters - Are there more than one?

Remember – Harding and Nasedo and Tic Tac are NOT all one and the same shapeshifter! I still believe that Tic Tac is out there watching over Liz!

Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation

Mythology!

Dates

Dates seem to be of extreme interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research. If you find a date I’ve missed or see one that is wrong – PM me with the change and where you got your information! I’m always looking for new dates!

New dates added include:

6/21/1984 – Alex’s Birthdate listed on his grave stone (Departure)
1994 – Date the building in the Leanna and Alex picture was torn down (ITLITB)
11/25/2000 – Brody’s simulation takes him back to 1424 hours, MST on this date (Off the Menu)
12/9/2000 – Alex’s Departure for Sweden (ITLITB)
1/16/2001 – Date Leanna computer file/document created by Alex (ITLITB)
1/18/2001 – Date Alex and Leanna were supposed to be traveling to the Baltic Islands – where the mysterious building supposedly existed (ITLITB)
1/28/2001 – Alex’s Return from Sweden date (ITLITB)
4/27/2001 – Roswell Prom & Date Liz begins to start writing in her Journal again. (Heart of Mine)
4/29/2001 – Alex date of death listed on his grave stone (Departure)
5/3/2001 – Alex is killed. (Cry Your Name)
5/4/2001 – Kyle’s Birthday (18th?) (Cry Your Name)
5/5/2001 – Alex Whitman’s funeral (Cry Your Name)

In Summary

Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff, crew or UPN reads this or the Intro), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!"

To have the opportunity for a Season 3 on UPN is WONDERFUL, and this show has the potential to be another “X-files” with intimate relationships IF done right! BUT PLEASE – Get rid of the “90210” storylines – if we want a soap opera, we will turn on “Days of Our Lives”!

A couple of general "rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed – I can’t emphasize this enough as we move towards the season finale), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions/preview and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. If you know what a preview “really means” due to spoilers, please DON’T tell us – let us speculate – we will find out soon enough! And discussion of the new book “Loose Ends” is now okay that the season is over – though you might hold some stuff back for those of us who still have to read it! Thanks!

As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz whose life ended too soon - said - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)! Liz found the TRUTH, and will avenge his death! (Tess – beware – you have no idea what you have released in the B*#@h!

Zero
I Shall Believe!!
FAN!

And to the newbies: What does this have to do with Liz's importance? Well, if Roswell was on for an hour every night, these are the things Liz would be thinking about.

I don't think Colin Hanks is returning, and to have Alex come back in a new body might trivialize his death as others have noted. So I am going to interpret it as Alex Is Really Dead, but it could have gone the other way.

Bringing up the lines from CYN one more time, here's Alex's last *key* words with comments:

"...it's about time"
Yes indeed, my dear RBIers, it is about time and its maniputlation

"...turned around"
FMax's visit turned things around

"...better nuke it"
'Nuking' could mean using a powerful device to do something to fix the altered future

"...sick of this"
Why did Liz feel sick in that episode when she was walking alone in the dark and looking over her shoulder as if she thought she was being followed?

"...always cold"
Well, maybe not 'always,' but Alex was very cold when Max touched him in the morgue van *because* he'd been dead for a while longer than assumed.
And, Valenti Sr. said it was cold in the nursing home, that they were trying to kill him...
**And** remember the cold food Alex ate in Wipe Out? Sure sounds like some time warping going on.
--Remember in MTD when Alex wakes up and asks how long he was sleeping?...
It was never really clear how long they were really there...
--was it really all night, or was there a time warp?

"...why does life have to be so hard?
...why does everything have to be so wrong?"
These lines are later repeated by the delivery boy, and so have added weight.
I think it points to Alex's death being the direct result of the altered future from FMax's visit,
And, I think it questions the judgement of FMax and Liz's actions in the past present.
Also, I think it implies that it can be changed for the better.

Then to Isabel, when he 'dream walked' her from what I am thinking is another dimension:
"...I'd miss you if you were gone..."
This would have to fit with Alex still being alive in the version of life that would have been without FMax and the time travelling

...Not going anywhere--except to band practice
This line too, fits with the comment above, and he put such emphasis on 'band practice.'
'Practice' could refer to doing it over again till you get it right,
And 'band' could mean the podsters and friends.

Then, we have the delivery boy and Valenti, both saying Alex acted like
"...it was the End Of The World,
This could mean that Alex was simply the martyr that died instead of everyone else in the TEOTW's original scenario.

Then the delivery boy says Alex said:
"...why does life have to be so wrong? Why does everything have to be a lie?"
What is a lie? Well, the mindwarping about Sweden and Las Cruces.
Maybe Tess just warped him into thinking that he needed to lie to everyone about being with Leanna in Sweden.
That would explain why the coverup was so thorough--Tess didn't have to mindwarp anyone but Alex, and then Alex did the coverup.

And finally, Liz and the Sheriff talking about
"...theories..."
Excuse my ego here, but I think that was a clue for us to sit up and start cooking our theories.

So, if Colin Hanks comes back or a new Alex does, it's set up for it.
It just all sounds so much like Wipe Out.

Is Alex in the time warp tube?

what powers do the skins have...

the antarians can shapeshift, but also the full potential human brain can do the same...remember micheal changing his fingerprints in white room....why doesnt micheal develop it further

Cantbehrit--you have made some great observations about CW and Tess--I always had an eye of suspiscion on Tess right from when she showed up and NOTHING changed my mind in Season2, anyway to add to your observations, how about the fact that the skins knew that CW was dead, Max actually accused Liz of notifying them---I think it was TESS who did right? Don't you?

Shapeshifter--what a great post, well thought out ideas, I agree I do not think Colin Hanks is coming back, I ONLY want Emilie back to wrap up storylines--thats all I don't think we need so many permanent characters myself. I will miss Alex though very much!!!

Melodious--interesting ideas you have too, I also proposed that maybe a SS(maybe even the supposed but not dead EdHarding) took Nicholas form and he and Tess were still wreaking havoc? And maybe now he is in the form of Sean? Afterall EH would be around in 1959 and there was that 59 on Sean's jersey and I swore EH had a thing for Liz.

QueenA - you raise an excellent issue! If Mikey G could 'shapeshift' his finger to match the dead FBI agent, what is to stop them from developing the ability to actually shapeshift their entire body?! I know Harding mentioned that his skeletal structure was different from the Human structure, but still - so who can shapeshift and who can't? And are they of a different species on Antar or are all Antarians cabable of shapeshifting. I tend to think their are different species involved, but ???

Grace Kel - I too never trusted Tess - though I liked her play off Kyle - but I think that it is very likely that it was Tess that notified the Skins re: CW. Remember Tess was also the one the found the letter that led them to Copper Summit and the Skins in the first place! Makes you wonder how much "power" Tess was adding to Max's shield in the assembly hall in Harvest??

Okay - I have to work now, see you all much later!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

OK, I'm really confused on this whole alien/essence thing. In the pilot Max admits he is an alien. Then we meet Nacedo and Tess and get a little bit of explanation of the alien essence being mixed into.... something. Then during Hybrid Chronicles we get a little more background on the fact that there were DNA donors who willingly or not had their DNA used to make our podsters. OK, so if the only thing about them that is actually alien is their essence then wouldn't that actually make them human. Just with those advanced human powers 3000 years ahead of us. I mean essence is not really a tangible thing right? You can't touch it so how could it really effect what they are? I know it helps determine who they are but how could it change what they are? Which if they were made from human DNA and no alien DNA they are basically clones and that would make them human. HELP!!!

Since ss seemed to take interest in my responses ....

quote:

Mel welcome back!
My take was that he was acting by instinct of self-preservation. Not that love (or sex) is less powerful, but I went for the first one.
The fact that Michael was foreseeing to become the only hybrid left alive thus becoming the leader himself, goes with my theory that Zan has been betrayed by the three of them, each one for their own reason. Even if the writers haven’t shown, up to now, any evilness in MI/I/A, dividing good and bad so neatly among the characters. Though Michael is always acting against Max’s directions, like Rath with Zan, only that Michael’s behaviour can be called intemperance while Rath’s can be called evilness/betrayal.
We still have to see what Isabel is capable of doing and may be S3 will tell us something about it.
Elena

Okay, here it is:

We don't know much about what caused the end of the world, but it somehow involved the skins or evil aliens. Since we know now that Tess is evil, it's possible that she was a part of this. Because of her anger at the other podsters, she might have helped to cause the world to end which would mean death to M, M & I. At that time, they wouldn't have realized she was a part of it, though, and that's why they thought her powers could have helped them save the world.

Of course, since she left in Departure, that could still happen. She could still be plotting against them. But now, maybe the podsters can try to prevent it from happening. Liz knows about FMax so if she tells everyone the whole story, they may realize what could happen now that Tess is gone, and try to prevent the evil aliens, including Tess, from causing destruction. In this case, EOTW would most definitely be an important episode. Liz meeting with FMax is important because now, she has the information she needs, and even if the future of the world is back to how it was before FMax came, Liz might be able to help prevent it now.

Does this make sense?

Then to Isabel, when he 'dream walked' her from what I am thinking is another dimension:
"...I'd miss you if you were gone..."
This would have to fit with Alex still being alive in the version of life that would have been without FMax and the time travelling

...Not going anywhere--except to band practice
This line too, fits with the comment above,

Then, we have the delivery boy and Valenti, both saying Alex acted like
"...it was the End Of The World,
This could mean that Alex was simply the martyr that died instead of everyone else in the TEOTW's original scenario.

So, if Colin Hanks comes back or a new Alex does, it's set up for it.
It just all sounds so much like Wipe Out.

Is Alex in the time warp tube?

Hey Mythers

I haven't been here in awhile. I needed to take a mental break...but something about Shapeshifter's post got me to thinking...

Why introduce the premise of altered timelines if you didn't plan on utilizing them in the future?

Jason Katims felt it was necessary for Max to explore his alien side before being able to move forward with Liz. This is essentially what the whole of season 2 was about.

Interestingly enough, he teased us with a timeline where Max and Liz were together and ultimately it led to the EOTW because of something to do with Tess.

What if in S3 they somehow return to that original timeline -- which will prevent Alex from ever dying and Tess from ever having conceived an heir. So maybe season 3 will be about the royal heir storyline, but it won't mean Tess is the one whose carrying it.

That would be awesome. Maybe they held off on having Liz tell Max about the EOTW in *this* season, because it's going to be a very important plot point in next season.

This would be a wonderful way of returning to the Roswell everyone used to love, while solving some of the problems that now exist. I wonder if they are able to return to that previous timeline (I think Serena, who is the other protector LOL will come into play here) if they will be able to hold onto their memories of the timeline we saw prior to EOTW?

*****Or somehow that alternate timeline has been existing simultaneously with this timeline on another one of those alternate subset dimensions that were imposed here on Earth. They never really got into the ramifications of what Wipe Out had on Earth's time.******

That is what I would like to see happen actually -- they return to that timeline. Alex is alive. Tess isn't on Antar, she just left and she is not pregnant, and Max becomes a virgin again. LOL. If only....

Anyhow, since I haven't been here in awhile I don't know if that has already been discussed. I can see them doing something totally different from Season 2. Taking off in a whole new direction...a new beginning.

{~}:}

I'm going to have to agree with you elenac. I do think Mike was going on "instinct" in staying rather than his love for Maria (although that's definitely substantial).

quote:...goes with my theory that Zan has been betrayed by the three of them, each one for their own reason.

I don't think Rath ultimately betrayed Zan. Courtney's line from HARVEST, "You wouldn't betray him. That loyalty cost your lives and those of everyone you loved. Please, just don't let history repeat itself."

However, I'm not entirely certain (since I don't believe the Royals were particularly honorable beings) Rath was acting more on a sense of duty/loyalty then he was with a sense of fear. I think Rath might have been afraid of Zan, which is why he didn't defy him (which cost 'them' their lives), he couldn't stand up to him (Zan was too powerful). If we're to assume the Dupes behavior mirrored that of the aliens at all (granted, that's arguable), but DZan's *behavior* did seem to emote more a sense of domineering and power - fear inducing (he's "da man", listen to him "or else", etc). If Zan had a similar way of "ruling" (which Nikolas seems to elude to with that "determining the fates of armies by the flip of a coin" line - granted, Niko could have been lying) - then I wouldn't doubt Rath feared Zan. Also considering Rath was seemingly a soldier/general in Zan's army.

Michael constantly opposes Max, but Michael also isn't afraid of Max at all (Mike has no reason to be), but he's certainly loyal. BUT, when Michael's survival instincts kick in (and dare I say, perhaps instinctual better judgement as well?)... Michael COULD NOT go with Max to Antar. He knew on some level it would mean his death (and he'd never see Maria again), but also possibly knew on some level that Max was WRONG and Michael perhaps *feared* the actual decision Max made (due to how wrong he knew it was on some level)? Michael instincts are able to save him, but these instincts aren't strong enough (or he doesn't believe in them enough) to stop Max and Isabel from going too?

quote:Though Michael is always acting against Max’s directions, like Rath with Zan, only that Michael’s behaviour can be called intemperance while Rath’s can be called evilness/betrayal.

ITA elenac. Once again, if we're to assume the Dupes behavior mirrored their once alien selves, then we can see that DRath's *defiance* was totally for evil/selfish purposes. DRath might have also been going on a sense of "fear" of DZan - DRath was tired of living under his shadow/boot heel... so with Lonnie's help/approval - DRath killed DZan. Completely unlike Michael, who opposes Max because he honestly believes in what he's doing - I also believe he does what he does for the "greater good" - for the benefit of *all* the podsters. He's unselfish in his purpose, just rash in his means (S1 Michael anyway). Michael, yet more proof why the (original) Roswell podsters are the better set?

quote:We still have to see what Isabel is capable of doing and may be S3 will tell us something about it.

I think we saw a small snipit of what Isabel is "capable of" in S2... she concealed Whitaker's Vilondra "revelations" from SURPRISE. Max didn't know about the Vilondra stuff until WIPE OUT (and it wasn't Iz who told him, it was Nikolas). Once again, as opposed to Vilondra, it seems to me that Isabel merely concealed this from her brother because she feared his reaction, she didn't want his disapproval or suspicion, because she *values* his opinion and good favor. Vilondra (as well as Lonnie), however, knowingly/willfully concealed her affair with Kivar from her brother - not because she feared his "disapproval"... she also feared his anger, like Rath? Her intentions were possibly also to eventually usurp the throne from Zan? Just as Rath's might have been but he was too afraid of Zan to go through with any real betrayal (unlike Vilondra/Lonnie)?

Where does Ava/Tess fall into this mix? Hypothetically speaking, let's just say for a moment Tess is actually the Dupe Bride, hence the Dupes are Zan/Tess/Lonnie/Rath. Then it could quite possibly be AVA (the young bride) who was Zan's ultimate betrayer amongst the aliens because the Dupes behavior so blatantly resembled that of their alien selves? Tess was working (seemingly) *directly* with the enemy against Zan, eventually for her own benefit? Possibly like Ava once did, Tess seemed to turn those Max trusted most away from him (Liz, Isabel, Michael on a certain level [he ultimately chose not to go with Max to Antar], killed Max's friend Alex who would have revealed the truth). AVA *stool pigeoned* both Vilondra and Rath? Hence Ava also turned Zan from his most trusted subjects, maybe even his own mother? Via Tess' "pregnancy" - Max had to leave Earth... hence not only taking Max away, but also Isabel, from their adoptive parents... hence Tess is ALSO turning Max from his very own family (except for Iz - however, even though Iz loves Max, I'm not entirely sure she completely respects him - you can love your sibling and be completely disappointed in him/her at the same time). Just as Ava turned Zan from his mother's (the Queen's) guidance?

Divide and conquer? Tess/Ava both separated Max/Zan from his family/friends... gained his trust (ultimately becoming the only one Max really trusted because he was willing to abandon his entire life on Earth for her and their "son")... T/A is the most vicious betrayer all along? Tess, only *real* betrayer amongst the Roswell royals (even though Mike and Iz did their own transgressions against Max, they would have NEVER done what Tess did - nor would Max have ever done anything like T's actions to them, not intentionally anyway)? Could this be more proof that Tess never belonged with the Roswell hybrids? Her "betrayal" had NO selfless intent at all... it was completely self-serving and basically despicable... not unlike DLonnie and DRath's behavior towards DZan.

Edited to add... the Dupes (Zan, Tess, Lonnie and Rath) are the DEFICIENT set, not only because they're more alien, but because they're REPLICATING history. Zan was betrayed by three of the most trusted individuals in his life: his wife, his sister and his second. The Roswell podsters were SPECIFICALLY created for basically everything they did in their alien lives to NOT reoccur (including remembering how they were - but to possibly learn how they were via their protectors/teachers, which became a poochscrew due to the crash-landing). The Royals are just too important to Antar and they NEED them for survival (for whatever reason, their specific auras? Their energies?)... but because the Royals were BAD leaders. The Pod Creators had to basically start from scratch after they died. Although the podsters carry the Royal essences in them, they were NEVER intended to do *anything* similar from their alien lives, that *includes* who they "mated" with. They're intended to be the best leaders they can possibly be - and if it takes "being human" to do so and being with HUMAN "mates"... then sobeit. Liz makes Max a better leader, Tess makes him an unbalanced, weak and confused jacka$$... Max needs to be with Liz, I fear for garbage cans everywhere if they're separated for much longer.

Melodious

Metaphysicalgrl--I agree I think this would be a wonderful way to address this awful timeline--and very scifi indeed to go back in time----but will the writers do this--I am not sure--I think it would be great!!!!

Roswell Angel--I think your idea sounds good, the only problem being that F MAX told P LIZ very little accept that they were taken over by their enemies---he failed to disclose who these enemies really were--but I guess we can assume Tess is one now.

Well, actually, even more interesting then having them go back in time, would have them write a storyline where that timeline was never interrupted (the good timeline) and is still in existence -- on another subset time dimension. Somehow, with the help of Serena, the Scooby Gang figures out how to destroy the subset time dimension they are currently existing in (they could go back and expand on the sci-fi of Wipeout) and return to the other timeline. However, they return with the knowledge of what happened in the alternate timeline. Alex dying, Tess's pregnancy, the whole nine yards. Tess is gone because that's what would've happened in that timeline, but she's not pregnant and there is no heir. They go back to that timeline armed with all the information that they learned in the other timeline.

Something like that....

{~}:}

Ugh!! Grace... hun... I love you, as I love ALL my Liz Mythers/RBIs... but damn, I only have two hands and you SEE how much I type with ONE post! Give me a break!

Melodious

Metaphysicalgrl--I agree again--would love to see it, it is certainly within the SCIFI realm the question is will they?

I guess I am the only one who finds a problem with Michael going from CHEATING in Las Vegas (Max apologizing to him for not lightening up enough to simply enjoy this---which I thought was a clear sign Michael was on the wrong road and the fact that Max apologized for it---he was getting sucked in to this wrong road as well) to where we ended up with Michael becoming the PERFECT BOYFRIEND at the end of the season---something is OFF to me--it just simply does not add up for me.
Something is very strange, I thought most characters were acting strange by seasons end, and all those references to the food and the cooking, I just feel like something else was going on here that we have missed? Am I alone in this? Probably LOL and thats okay too.

Zero-I definitely wondered about Tess offering to help in Harvest--I thought oh boy there goes Max and sure enough he collapsed!!!! LOL!!!!

Hey Cantbehrit I noticed you asked a question of one of your earlier posts about whether the pods had brought up Nasedo's name first or was it Tess----it was clearly MAX who brought up the name first---"we thought it was Nasedo, so you do know him them?" So they might have just played along that creepy Ed was Nasedo when in fact he was not!!!! I think this is a real possibility.

Yes, I think JK has "tease" basically written across his forehead. EOTW aside, there were all those *little* lovely M&L snipits he gave us throughout season 2, not to mention that delicious wedding flash in VLV. Then we're immediately slammed with HOM, L&M go the prom together ONLY for Max to end up kissing Tess. Yes, Katims is a tease (a sadistic one at that).

quote:What if in S3 they somehow return to that original timeline -- which will prevent Alex from ever dying and Tess from ever having conceived an heir.

We can only dream

quote:So maybe season 3 will be about the royal heir storyline, but it won't mean Tess is the one whose carrying it.

Although, I hope you're not implying that Liz perhaps is pregnant in that alternate timeline Meta, because I really don't want that either. Granted, it's better than T pregnant... but still.

HOWEVER... I'm still lingering on the "Max unintentionally/subconsciously chose Liz to be the [only] mother of his heir when he healed her" theory. I know I'm not the first to mention these screencaps (I apologize to the genius who brought this up first, Zero perhaps? )... but notice the LOCATION Max healed Liz, the handprint:

Notice the handprint on Tess's "pregnant" belly:

Obviously Max HAD to heal Liz on her abdomen because that's exactly where she was shot (hence I could just be full of it) and the baby's handprint isn't going to appear on Tess's chest or anything (unless that kid has some freakishly long alien tentacle arms or something, ahem)... BUT I'm thinking more on the symbolic lines. The handprints are even in the same angle/positioning, one is just bigger than the other.

Max has loved Liz since he first laid eyes on her, he's NEVER felt the same way about Tess. Yet Liz had a handprint on her stomach (caused by Max) and the Tess gets one seemingly made by her "son" (the "son" came about partly because of Max? Or did Tess make that handprint appear herself?). Are Liz and Tess equals? They're not, they never were. (King) Max has *always* loved Liz, at least MORE than Tess. Tess asks Max flat out in DEP why he couldn't ever feel "that way" about her... so it confirms that Max doesn't love T like he loves L (if he really loves T at all - there's all that "he loves her but he's not IN love with her" jargon I could bring up, but not now).

Anyway, Liz and Tess both have handprints appear on their abdomens... but, if they do have significance, WHICH is the substantial handprint? Liz's or Tess's? I just don't think they're *both* substantial. Mostly because Tess is basically embedded in deception ... I'd think that handprint on her belly is just about as veracious as Lonnie's virtue.

If Liz's is the substantial handprint (caused because of Max's love for her and his sacrifice to save her - which is, granted, pretty damn substantial in and of itself)... *why* is it substantial? Because it proves Max would do ANYTHING for his beloved Liz? Or could it mean something more? Something Max always wanted with Liz, but he never thought he could have.... but on some subconscious level, he HAD to have, NEEDED to have... and only with Liz? Starting a family? Creating an heir? And after Max has MADE his choice (unintentionally, when he healed her gunshot wound).... the choice can never be retracted? Hence, as soon as Max healed Liz, he not only changed her, but sealed his life and hers forever? Tess NEVER had a chance (not a real one anyway) and because of Max's choice, Liz is the ONLY one that can give Max an heir? Max chose Liz because the moment he saw her, he (somehow) knew she was *worthy* to have this *extremely* important role of being the mother to this VITAL "heir" to the throne? The mother of destiny? He never chose his bride, in this life or the last one... because in either/any lifetime... it's Liz's destiny to be the heir's mother? It's the SPECIFIC combinaton of Liz and Max that creates this "destined" leader (the child is the actual destiny, not the parents)? Max/Tess = a total disaster (just like they were in the alien lifetime).

I believe it was William Ross Wallace that said, "For the hand that rocks the cradle, is the hand that rules the world."... I'd feel MUCH more comforted if that hand were Liz's and NOT Tess's.

Melodious

I had a rather startling thought. IF we're to assume Max's heir is so friggin' important (and that could be shaky, depending on how truthful Tess was being)... what if it's Max's CHILD that was the reason for FMax to go back in time in EOTW?

Max tells Liz that after they "cemented" their relationship, they were inseparable. Why? Now I'm thinking their true/soulmate love whathaveyou would have been more than enough to keep them together forever, blah di blah. HOWEVER... Max sleeps with Tess, gets her pregnant. Now even if Max HAD protection in that alternate EOTW timeline, it doesn't mean it *worked*. What if *protection* simply ISN'T as effective with hybrid conception (or prevention thereof)? Max got Liz pregnant in that alternate timeline... THIS is why they were inseparable afterwards? Tess basically *explodes* when she finds out and demands Liz get an abortion. Max says hell no. Tess leaves in a huff and joins up with Kivar.

So Max/Liz have a baby in that alternate timeline, all things are uberhappy for a few years... UNTIL... Kivar (with Tess's help - Which FM/L never knew?) kidnaps Max/Liz's 14 yr old son/daughter? Kivar murders Max/Liz's child, Max's (TRUE) heir? Devastated, Liz and Max must go through the most drastic plan to definitively change the past? Their entire 14 years of marriage, Liz believed she was NEVER truly destined with Max - even though they were in love and they had a child together? His "destiny" with Tess was never really squared away. Liz blamed herself for their child's death (as well as Michael and Isabel's), ONLY if she were stronger and resisted Max that night of the Gomez concert (she wouldn't have gotten pregnant and Max wouldn't have refused to leave her)... and ONLY IF Tess hadn't left Roswell... they might have all been stronger (she nor Max ever knew about Nasedo's deal)? FLiz wouldn't have had to go through the pain of losing their son/daughter? A child that Liz believed - no matter how much she didn't want to - was never meant to be?

Future Liz believed that a Max/Tess child - since she convinced herself was part of Max's "destiny" - is what was MEANT to be... a child that would have been strong enough via Max/Tess' hybrid bodies/essences to be the future leader of Antar? In actuality, Max/Liz's child is and always was the true destiny, the one and only heir? Because FMax/Liz never discovered Tess's treachery (and the true importance of their son/daughter)... it led to their son/daughter's death? FMax doesn't realize however how much his wife blames herself for everything? FMax still believes (and is right) without a doubt that Liz WAS and always would be his only destiny? That their child wasn't a mistake (the child WOULDN'T have been a mistake - because, in theory, Kivar realized it was indeed a true HEIR and that's why the child was killed - the child's murder is what caused the "end of the world", not Tess's leaving).

What they never realized is that Tess (and/or her relationship with "the enemy") is the cause of *all* their turmoil? A relationship Max and Liz at least know about in this timeline postDEP. A relationship, however, that has yet to be terminated? Season 3 maybe?

How Present Liz might discover she and Max had a baby in that alternate timeline.... PLiz has a FLASH just like Max's wedding flash from VLV. Liz sees herself happy with Max and a baby... and she KNOWS it's her baby, hers and Max's. PLiz realizes FMax never told her they had a family. FMax didn't tell her because he's haunted by FLiz's devastation of losing their son/daughter once over... FMax loved Liz too much to cause her that kind of pain (again); PLiz realizing her child was murdered in one lifetime. If anything, FMax was already teling Liz that that she was going to HURT and then lose the man she loves (to Tess), if he told her about the pregnancy the night of Gomez, she'd ALSO would have realized she was going to lose the chance of having a family with Max (something Tess would also more than likely inherit in changing the timeline). FMax just couldn't hurt her like that (besides, he doesn't know how important his child with Liz was? S/he was certainly important to him, but FMax never discovered the *degree* of his child's [vast?] importance - the child was murdered by Kivar before he found out)?

Of course, this would make poor Liz's torture all the worse, but it could be the start of how Liz figures out that she and Max are truly destined for one another? Liz is destined to give Max a family, not Tess. How she'd come to that conclusion? I have NO idea.

Melodious

Do you mean she just let it out? Or was reproaching him? How lame! How arid! Still thinking too complicated eh?

Meta - Courtney was Rath’s follower, would make a bad deed sound nice. And that line that Rath said in MTD about Zan’s death “You know, all his powers, all his abilities, and, you know, he died in a street accident” gives the exact idea of what was going on between the two. Rath was surely jealous and didn’t respect Zan’s decisions, no fear involved. And I believe that in a very milder way, Michael doesn’t respect Max’s decisions more than disagreeing with them for a better cause, he sounds like a child in his “no” age. Anyway if these hybrids have the essence of their former Antarian selves, and Rath wouldn’t betray Zan as Courtney says, how comes that Rath killed Zan?
As for Iz concealing Vilondra’s past to Max, made me think that she was both ashamed and frightened about it to say it to Max. Her betrayal back in Antar was caused by her passion for Kivar, Zan’s enemy, and when she had to choose between the two, she chose Kivar. This suggests to me that Iz is afraid of getting involved with someone because she senses that it could devastate her. This is what I was suggesting we might see in S3.
Ava’s reason may have been the lust for power and the connection with other hidden forces (may be her former family now against Zan). The Ava/Tess switch is still possible, but it could also be that in a brood one is different from the others.
Three different positions with three different forces behind, probably in conflict, brought them all to death.

Elena

After rewatching CYN, we started playing with the binary number sequence again. Well, one thing lead to another and this is what I came up with. The number 41. Don't ask me how, I just did! Then I became obsessed to find a message. Here it is...

King(11+9+14+7=41)
Zan (26+1+14=41)
alien (1+12+9+5+14=41)
dream (4+18+5+1+13=41)
home (8+15+13+5=41)
mom (13+15+13=41)
gone (7+15+14+5=41)
key (11+5+25=41)
lock (12+15+3+11=41)
good (7+15+15+4=41)

There it is!I tried to work it out with 41 characters but could only come up with 39. Has S3 started yet??? I have been told that I am in bad shape!

P.S. I've enjoyed all the posts in the last few days as I searched for another number 41 word.

Grace Kel - I totally understand where you are coming from. I thought Shiri did an excellent job in these scenes conveying the emotions that Liz was feeling - many mixed emotions! But I would have liked the "I didn't sleep with Kyle" to have come from Kyle or Maria (who also knew the truth) - and then for Max to have confronted Liz in the Jeep about it! But, alas, the writers or JK decided not to go this way! But I do agree - Liz keeping true to the commitment of keeping the secret would have been more "in-character" than the way it was blurted out - but we still have the FM portion of the secret to come out in Season 3. Or do you think this is just going to be dropped and another loose end??

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Grace Kel - I totally understand where you are coming from. I thought Shiri did an excellent job in these scenes conveying the emotions that Liz was feeling - many mixed emotions! But I would have liked the "I didn't sleep with Kyle" to have come from Kyle or Maria (who also knew the truth) - and then for Max to have confronted Liz in the Jeep about it! But, alas, the writers or JK decided not to go this way! But I do agree - Liz keeping true to the commitment of keeping the secret would have been more "in-character" than the way it was blurted out - but we still have the FM portion of the secret to come out in Season 3. Or do you think this is just going to be dropped and another loose end??

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

After rewatching CYN, we started playing with the binary number sequence again. Well, one thing lead to another and this is what I came up with. The number 41. Don't ask me how, I just did! Then I became obsessed to find a message. Here it is...

King(11+9+14+7=41)
Zan (26+1+14=41)
alien (1+12+9+5+14=41)
dream (4+18+5+1+13=41)
home (8+15+13+5=41)
mom (13+15+13=41)
gone (7+15+14+5=41)
key (11+5+25=41)
lock (12+15+3+11=41)
good (7+15+15+4=41)

There it is!I tried to work it out with 41 characters but could only come up with 39. Has S3 started yet??? I have been told that I am in bad shape!

P.S. I've enjoyed all the posts in the last few days as I searched for another number 41 word.

i've got another one
LIZ (12+9+26) + 47 COINCIDANCE OR WHAT
this is another scary thing
I added the first letter OF THE ROYAL FOUR WITH LIZ BEING THE FOURTH
MAX (M)=13
+
MICHEAL (M)=13
+
ISABEL (I)=9
+
LIZ (L)=12
= 47
FREAKY ISNT IT...ARE THE STARS POINTING TO LIZ???????

OKKKKKKKK...THE PODSTERS ORGANS ARE HUMAN BUT their blood is alein.....
THEIR BRAIN IS HUMAN
THEIR POWERS ARE HUMAN
blood doesnt have a nucleus...so it contains no DNA....SO WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS DIFFINITLY ALEIN.but it does everything the human blood needs to do. so what else is alien????????
unless for u guys that watch the x files remember that telelpathic boy with the alein gene.
SOULUTION #1 the podsters are human but with alein genes that are recessive or invisible that may be similar to human genes....

SOLUTION #2 one side of the human DNA helix could've been replaced by the alein DNA that is similar to the human dna

SOLUTION #3 the DNA in the cells nucleus is human......but.....the mitochondrian DNA is not human.....mitochondrian DNA is passed on from generation to generation by the mother to child...and is completly identical to the parent and generations before that person...

so zan's and max's mithohondrian DNA is completly identical to his alein mother his grandmother, her grandmother etc etc.....one dna being passed on identicall to each generation

sorry im a biology buff mitochondria is a cell organell within a cell speking english
its an organ in the cell

1. Gomez 'We Haven't Turned Around' (M/L, HW)
2. Travis 'Turn' (A/L, WAF)
3. Collective Soul 'Turn Around' (K/T, TSAP)

I see 'turning around' as being messed with, FMax messing with the natural order of time, Tess messing with people's minds etc.

Here's my take on this:
Gomez - Max and Liz 'haven't [been?] turned around' - thus, they are where they're supposed to be (kissing), and are therefore supposed to be together.
Travis - these lyrics are very telling about Alex IMO (I can post them if anyone wants) - references to surviving, past feelings etc.
Collective Soul - possibly Tess's state of mind (Alex is still in 'Sweden' at this point, and she's talking to Kyle - her 'favourite human' - about how he's possibly been changed by Max.) Not sure about that though.

So yeah, that's my little take on the songs used I'll post the lyrics to all 3 if anyone wants?

King(11+9+14+7=41)
Zan (26+1+14=41)
alien (1+12+9+5+14=41)
dream (4+18+5+1+13=41)
home (8+15+13+5=41)
mom (13+15+13=41)
gone (7+15+14+5=41)
key (11+5+25=41)
lock (12+15+3+11=41)
good (7+15+15+4=41)

47born! This is very cool! Just thought I'd add that 41 -> 4+1=5 ! 5 is another Roswellian Number!

Interesting theory, Mel. What if Max and Liz's child was SERENA?

CongresSkin W, Courtney, and Nikolas have all demonstrated Powers, and they are all "Skins" who came here from Twilo. In fact, Courtney and Nikolas specificly referred to Max & Co. having powers on Twilo.

Their bodies are (as best we can tell) clones of humans, with a little bit of alien genetic material added. Their "essences", souls if you will, are duplicates of the souls of the Royal Four from Twilo. This (only) is what identifies each of the podsters with one of the original R4. How much alien genetic material, and who it came from, isn't covered.

OK, you need help.
Go over to the CHADs thread, and start reading. This should help detoxify you.

Zero--yes will we ever address FutureMax or will they skip through to new school year---which I don't think they should but I haven't gotten anything from this show I wanted at all in season2 so...chad, plothole will not surprise me at all anymore unfortunately!!!!

Reggie yes Congresswoman Whitaker had powers but I do not believe her powers at all equaled Nicholas' power? Do you agree? Nicholas did indicate in WipeOut that Zan's power was greater on Planet Antar than Max's power on Earth--but it did seem for a moment when Max glared back at him that Nicholas backed off in fear???? Did you notice this too?

Vihmakass--interesting twist on that theory _I like that!!!

<sigh> You know you're in trouble when...
significant plot points on the show can be explained believably by poor production.

Actually, wasn't there an Official Cut Scene about this?

------------
sry.gram.,spell.

Nikolas was on Earth... a General trapped in a child's body for 50 years... honestly, if I were Niko, I'd want some revenge on Kivar. If I didn't ALREADY have my sites on Kiv's throne in the first place PRIOR 1950... I'd certainly have them now! Nikolas has EVERYTHING, Kivar has NOTHING... Kiv, stuck on Antar, probably clueless to what's going on Earthside and trying to rule over a warring universe. Nikolas, on Earth with the lovely Lonnie, has the weak Royals at his fingertips, KNOWS what's in the Destiny Book AND the Granilith is somewhere on the planet.

If Niko was helping Tess... imo, there's NO WAY he'd give Kivar what he wants when he himself has a shot at the Antarian throne! That's of course, unless Kivarian spies are keeping an eye on Niko... and if what Larek said is true, that emissarying eats up resources like crazy... then honestly, Kiv probably wouldn't be able to keep an eye on Niko AT ALL. Niko has free reign to do whatever he d**n well pleases?

Niko mindwarped the sex and baby? Tess indeed left pregnant... but pregnant with Alex's baby? After Niko read the DB (hybrid/hybrid pregnancies are impossible?), he mindwarped Tess to have sex with Alex. Alex was mindwarped to see Leanna during the sex. Tess's memory was erased completely. After Alex returns from "Sweden", Niko's focus is switched to Max/Tess (postGandarium Chronicles - HOM and on). Niko warping Tess to not realize she's pregnant.... UNTIL that mirror scene in BIY. Niko couldn't warp them into actually having sex because that would endanger the life of the baby Tess was already pregnant with (alien sex is a little too risky - via Niko's knowledge of what Rath/Lonnie's sex life was like)? Niko couldn't endanger the baby, hence the sex was all a warp? Niko also *knew* what hybrid sex was like via knowing Lonnie? Hence, the warp was accurate (not that Max or Tess would have a clue what it's like anyway, but still).

Niko continues to warp the pregnancy: baby is sick, 1 month gestation, it's a boy, handprint on Tess's stomach, etc. OR Tess is helping to a certain extent "faking" the pregnancy, hence she was creating the handprint on her belly, faking sick, etc (Niko blackmailed her into accepting the Nasedo deal? A deal Tess originally didn't want to go through with because it would have meant the podsters' deaths? Niko blackmailed her however because he KNEW she wasn't a Roswell podster, but the Dupe Bride? Nasedo had switched the brides to better suit his plan?). Forcing, at least Tess, OFF the planet (and into Kivar's waiting hands) via the *transport*. The transport, imo, IS NOT the actual Granilith - the cone-shaped device was just the CASING for the Granilith, the Granilith has since left it's "casing" - Gran has moved to a human host (kind of like Dawn from BUFFY)? So, Tess indeed left pregnant and it will fool Kivar for awhile... enough time for Niko to search for the *real* Granilith, obtain the *actual* heir and slaughter the Royals?

Niko also framed Tess for Alex's murder... THROUGH Tess, Nikolas murdered Alex (strengthening Tess's warp, again). Niko needed Alex dead anyway, because Alex knew the TRUTH (Alex might have remembered the sex with Tess - which is why he confronted her specifically in the first place? Sex aside however, Alex is the only other one besides Niko that knew what was REALLY in the DB? Which is why Niko needed him dead). Tess believes she did it because she doesn't know Niko is manipulating her. Alex's murder is also what separated Tess from the group - Max "exiled" her to Antar (Niko knew he wouldn't have killed her because of the baby). Niko needed Tess to take off to Antar (to keep Kivar occupied), but Nik NEEDED Max to stay on Earth. Niko still needs Max to produce a child (for HIS benefit). A child with a *particular* human girl (the one carrying the Granilith's essence)? After the child is conceived, Niko will abduct the girl then HE will have all the power (until Max saves said girl of course)?

I'm sure there are still a lot of holes in this theory, but what do y'all think so far? Niko is running the WHOLE show in an attempt to usurp Kivar?

Melodious

Melodious

Re: Wipeout. Actually, it's NOT due to editing. Niko's hand is on Max's head, Max looks at him the same way he looked at Hubble's gun, and Niko's hand moves away as if Max pushed it with his mind. It's a continuous shot, so there's no way it could be due to editing

K, this was undoubtedly noticed when WAF first aired, but in the beginning when Alex first appears at school, there's a sign behind him that says, "Make It Real!" In the light of where he really was, that was a honkin' clue
~Tas

Please (if you can) look expression what River Dog has in this moment when he examine the necklace!
What you think - why?

I'm re-watching all of Season 2. I'm in the middle of the Hybrid Chronicles and find them much more interesting the second time around. I didn't really "get it" the first time.

Could someone please remind me where "Off the Menu" was supposed to fit in? I want to watch in the "correct" order this time.

Thanks.

I also noticed the in the middle of the V shape shadow there is also a double helix shadow created by an object..it looks like the double helix of a DNA structure

Also after watching foursquare at the bit where tess makes micheal remember a flash there is a danger sign behind her...

could this have been an early sign that she was evil to begin with???

QueenAmidala01--yes I always noticed that DANGER sign as well---a danger sign is also shown behind Tess in the SILVER MINE in DESTINY ep--when she suggests that that just the four of them go back to the pod chamber.

Hey Starbox are you out there I have a question about something you posted saying that in Michael's connection to Maria he went back to PRE TESS visions of coming out of the pods----I am not sure this is the case--it wasn't til Tess showed up at Michaels window that he SUDDENLY remember PULRMAN RANCH vision---I never saw that shown before this--so what do you think?

This is a better view of the wound itself: http://www.crashdown.com/recaps/pilot/pic100-025.jpg

I'd like to notice Liz's bra, the infamous polka-dot one.
You'd think that Liz would have an ordinary white one. I think that the use of the polkadot one is a sign that Liz is more than just an uptight control freak; she's got a relaxed, fun side too.

Max said over and over that Liz was his soulmate and that he had never felt that way before. I think that if Zan had really loved Ava, Max would feel it. On the series finale of 3rd Rock From the Sun, Dick wanted to take Mary back with him to their planet, but when she decided not to go, he knocked out her memory of him, but he said she would always know deep down inside that she had loved someone. I definately think Max and Liz are soul mates.

Maria and Liz didn't trust test. Liz says "now that tess is here, it's odd." Michael didn't trust Tess. Max repeated several times that he felt like something was controlling him. He can't focus. I think Stepford Max started here and our Liz knew Tess was evil from the beginning.

Harding and Tess were really creepy and would scare the heck out of me. I would NOT classify them as "normal" if I were Isabel. I also think he was serius about killing Liz.

Tess totally planned for her car to break down outside the Crashdown. She knew what she was doing and Max knew what she was up to. what went wrong? I think this was just the beginning of Tess's little mind games and she knew she had to suck up to Liz to get inside with the group. Liz had it right all along. In season 3, they should make Liz the leader!

What if the "evil within" was in fact Tess's ability to mindwarp? If nothing else, it's an imperfect power...

Gosh, I wish I could recall the switched Ava/Tess theory.... I would like to know more about Ava and Zan's relationship next season.

All hail Liz Parker, Queen of Antar!

Works for me.

But Earth would be missing out...

How could they not figure out she was evil? Good question. The thing I wonder about is how come they accepted Tess so fast? In the beginning they didn't really trust her but then they just accepted her. Just believed since she was one of them and they could trust her. I wonder if Tess had anything to do with that. She probably did. I think she messed with their heads.
They didn't really know her. What they knew about Nasedo wasn't exactly wonderful stuff. But they all seemed to forget that. Forget Tess had been with Nasedo all that time.
That's what I wonder about. Why they accepted Tess so fast. Even though she was one of them there was that fact that they didn't know her. They didn't know anything about Tess. And those things Tess did when she first showed up. They seemed to forget about that.
I think Tess had something to do with that. With her powers and just manipulating them in a 'human' way especially Max.
In the future they should all be careful about what strangers they trust. Humans or aliens.
Tess of course used all of that to her advantage. All of them trusting her they never expected she'd do anything like what she did.

Just bringing over a pretty by fishish25. I thought the diamond use was , given our many related theories!

~Tas

GraceKel - I am here - just went on an impromptu road trip last week - I am not sure about the visins - I did not remember Tess giving Michael "little-Micheal" warps - but I have not rewatched season one post-finale.

I just have to say again - after seeing that screencap of Tess's "handprint" belly just how FAKEY the preganancy is. Grrrrrrr. Where are we supposed to think her uterus is????? Because - folks - it is right above your pubic bone. If her tummy was still that flat - her uterus would still be pretty small - in pregnany - when you can see fetal movement up that high it is because your uterus has stretched big enough to accomodate the end-term fetus inside. And that is when you look HUGELY pregnant. At this point in Tess's "pregnancy" - assuming that she has "human internal organs" - her uterus and any fetal action would be going on between her pubic bone and umbilicus - NOT up on her tummy.

Anyway - I screencap gallery IS coming!!!

quote:Originally posted by Vihmakass:
One thougt...if FMax/FLiz have a child (Gomez night) maybe they lose their child bc Liz not growing up in this timeline?

I was thinking about this too Vihmakass. I was thinking the night of Gomez, perhaps Liz was "changed" but she wasn't "changed" enough. More changing was required of her before she could become the mother of Max's child, the heir?

quote:He/she need for this power from both parents?
And he is the Granolith?
(Liz+Max+cement= Granolith?)

I really do think the combination of Liz and Max forms the Granilith Vihm, notice the *V* Max and Liz's JOINED hands form at the end of SH (the pic was posted earlier on this thread, so I won't post it again - y'all know what I'm talking about though I'm sure). Although altering your above formula just a tad Vihm:

Max + Liz = The heir/heiress
The heir/heiress to the throne = Granilith
Whirlwind Symbol = Symbol of Max & Liz
--Whirlwind Symbol also signifies the Granilith.
--Max has given the symbol to Liz TWICE (RD & DEP, the second time, as a gift)

I believe someone translated "Granilith" from Latin (?), it means "stepping stone". Could Liz herself be the Granilith? Kind of like Dawn in BUFFY; Liz has the Granilith's "essence"/energy in her, but can't directly access it's power. I got the feeling the Granilith *might* be sentient after Tess's line in Sof47 ("Do you think it can hear us?"). It's ONLY via connecting to Max, this power can be *touched* on... but not fully unleashed (the "glowing" from SH, the visions Liz was receiving that couldn't have been coming from Max - these were signs of the Granilith in Liz? This immense energy peeking out, drawn out by Max?). It's the combination of Max's hybrid DNA and the Granilith essence inside of Liz that will unleash this power? Max/Liz's child will fully wield this power?

Melodious

Sometimes a Granolyth is just a Granolyth...

I don't like the granolith myself. I do enjoy the Liz as key theories, but in Departure, the granolith had zero reaction to Liz's presense. I was hoping something would happen with it.

As it is, Max et al have a lot of work to do in Season Three, now that K'var has the thing again.

TTYL

If Max and Liz were destined to be together (which I also believe, but hasnt been stated in the show ) :

The day in the diner when Liz was shot, some people believe that she was shot for a reason (which I also believe was an idea the writers had, because of things that were said in the original script of the pilot)...
Maybe the reason for her being shot was to bring Max and Liz together... I was thinking, I wonder if one of the shooters was one of the protectors, or maybe it was both of the protectors, (like some people believe there are 2) fighting about whether or not they should 'bring them together' because they know that both Max and Liz are stubborn (from knowing them from their past lives on Antar?), but also, because even if they had gotten to know each other, she would have no idea that he was an alien unless she saw him 'use his powers!'

I know that this doesn't make sense with what we know about the show... because Nacedo said that he had been looking for the podsquad for a long time?? which in my mind also seems weird, because obviously he knew that they were born in Roswell, because he took Tess from the pod chamber! So I doubt they would leave Roswell unless they 'really' knew who they were...

But this is just a thought

*GalaxyGrl*

I don't like the granolith myself. I do enjoy the Liz as key theories, but in Departure, the granolith had zero reaction to Liz's presense. I was hoping something would happen with it.

As it is, Max et al have a lot of work to do in Season Three, now that K'var has the thing again.

TTYL

OMG Qfanny - I just came on to raise the "Atlantis" connection. We saw it today for father's day, and either someone connected to the Disney production was involved with Roswell, or there are some eerie coincidences!! I plays into my "ancient civilization connection" theory SOO WELL!! The symbol - one swirl with a dot in the middle - could have been taken by Alantans that left at the time of the catastrophy and turned into the symbol with two swirls tht we have come to connect to Roswell! There is so much to the movie's mythology that connects it to Roswell. I'm not going to ruin the movie - but go see it! Some examples other than the single swirl with the dot that means "A" in the Atlantis language - there is the "Shepard's Book," the "Heart of Atlanis" that is connected to crystals, the royals and a single girl (think of the potential LOST with the Granolith if Roswell lets it slip away as solely a spaceship), and handholding that represents the connection of two civilizations. Okay - I'll wait until others have seen it - but it plays so well with a number of our theories and the connections to Roswell and what we have observed are amazing!!

Galaxy Girl - makes total sense - and this has been discussed! Some have speculated that the shooting was intental for a variety of reasons - one of which was to bring Max "out" by forcing him to use his powers and "connect" with Liz! Of course, we may never know - but it does make sense!!

Zero
I Shall Believe! :love;
FAN!

Liz in BIY (crashdown.com), after the attempt to ask Tess about mindwarping.

On the pillow, notice the dark-colored row of symbols. There is a two-sided one, like an H – that one is nearest to Liz. (Another hint of two sides to her nature?) The others are more or less like four arrowheads. One points oppositely from the other three (how often we have seen something like this), and is partitioned off from the others by a vertical line. (A hint of Tess having a contrary agenda? And maybe not really belonging to the same group after all?)

Zero, now that the season is over, I hope you hear something from the set decorators.

My belief, there was no 4th. DeeDee

Melodious, Thanks for bringing over your response to my CYN observations.

MetaphysicalGrl and GraceKel, The time-travel unravel sequence you guys are considering reminds me of some Chess moves I've plotted that ultimately failed because they got so complex that I missed some fatal weak spot.
--which is probably exactly why Roswell has so many plotholes.

iluvroswell13, ITA that the book maybe be just a fake in the light of Departure--fabricated as part of Nasedo's plan.

TVPooh, ITA on Liz being made the leader in Season 3. I think that would be so cool--especially if Max declares that Liz is the leader.

tasyfa, love the pic!

Starbox, your post just made me realize: I had thought it was low-budget cinematography that caused us to see Tess's flat tummy growing pregnant, and especially since it did it more that one time. Now I see that a a clear message that the baby's a fake. How bout if in trying to save his non-existant son, Max saves another young alien?

*GalaxyGrl*, another shooting theory is that they did it to cause Max to reveal himself.

And Nemo, thanx as usual for giving me the sense that we are really involved in at least an intellectual exercise here.

If Max and Liz were destined to be together (which I also believe, but hasnt been stated in the show ) :

[b]The day in the diner when Liz was shot, some people believe that she was shot for a reason (which I also believe was an idea the writers had, because of things that were said in the original script of the pilot)...
Maybe the reason for her being shot was to bring Max and Liz together... I was thinking, I wonder if one of the shooters was one of the protectors, or maybe it was both of the protectors, (like some people believe there are 2) fighting about whether or not they should 'bring them together' because they know that both Max and Liz are stubborn (from knowing them from their past lives on Antar?), but also, because even if they had gotten to know each other, she would have no idea that he was an alien unless she saw him 'use his powers!'

I know that this doesn't make sense with what we know about the show... because Nacedo said that he had been looking for the podsquad for a long time?? which in my mind also seems weird, because obviously he knew that they were born in Roswell, because he took Tess from the pod chamber! So I doubt they would leave Roswell unless they 'really' knew who they were...

But this is just a thought

*GalaxyGrl*

See the whole point of distiny is that its not tampered with beings....Destiny is a force, the paranormal. It defies all things. So when the antarians cloned them and said blah blah blah this is your distiny was it destiny itself talking? or the work of the alein beings.
Its the work of beings in this occasion because on earth destiny itself took charge...liz and max were brought together by the shooting..fell in love all because of destiny and the alein beings destiny wasnt effective anymore....because it was forced apon the clones...just because they are duplicates of the original...being a clone doesn't mean that their soul or destiny is the same because they are separate life forms from the original.

Yesterday - I forget the most interesting connection between Atlantis and Roswell - the Princess Kida "heals" the wound of the human Milo, with the remnants of a silver handprint remaining temporarily on Milo before fading away! Okay - anyone see a conneciton to Roswell there?!?

Nemo - our inside source lost their contact when the show wrapped for the season, but we think - and hope - that once filming begins again that we will be able to get answers to our questions!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

During Liz’s flashbacks, she sees a red giant star which she later asks our favorite science teacher about. While the home planet of the Four has never been mentioned in the show itself, silverhandprint.com tells us that the Four’s home planet is called “Antar.” Oddly enough, there is a red giant star called “Antares.” It’s the brightest star in the scorpius constellation and has a slight orange color to it. It’s color is what gives it it’s name which means “Rival of Mars.” It’s about 520 light years from Earth and 230 times bigger then our sun. Antares is in it’s last stages of life. The star's nuclear furnace has consumed its original hydrogen fuel, and is now "burning" heavier helium. As the star switched fuels, its outer layers puffed up like a balloon. Antares will someday consume its helium too, converting it to heavier elements like carbon and oxygen, which will in turn continue to feed the star's nuclear fires. Eventually though, Antares will no longer be able to use the elements in its core. The star will explode in a supernova outshining even the Moon in Earth's sky. All that will remain of Antares will be a crushed corpse: either a neutron star - a ball so dense that a teaspoon of its matter would weigh millions of tons - or a black hole - an object with such powerful gravity that not even light could escape from it. Given this information, it sounds like the planet Antar is in mortal danger, doesn’t it?

Cool huh? I invite everyone to check out this and other Liz pointers at my thread at http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/007897.html Let me know what you think.

Chad Evans
"Because you can do impossible things." -Dar to Curupira in "The Demon Curupira."

"It is now official! Roswell High author Melinda Metz, and her writing parnter Laura Burns have been hired as staff writers for Roswell season 3. Ms. Burns was formerly Melinda's editor on the Roswell High books."

So, do the books have any Mythology behind them, or is it more like The Hybrid Chronicles? I've heard that the books were good, and that they were awful. Info, please!

Ummm. Did JK bring her in, because he was stumped? Did UPN bring her in, because they thought he was lost? Or did she invite herself in, somehow; and if so, who's in charge? "Creative differences" make problems.

I gotta baaad feeling...

Piece of junk? Maybe....or key to it....

This is probably a dumb question... but how was something so small able to *break* as pictured above? I can understand the ship colliding with a mountain at a great velocity, hence that's the reason why this seemingly "indestructible" alien metal was able to shatter into thousands of pieces (hence all the alien matter strewn everywhere in Sof47).

The above is a tiny pendant... I'd presume that someone must have *purposefully* broken the thing? If so, why? And if the pendant IS made of some kind of alien metal (which could be arguable I suppose)... why didn't it "come back together" when Liz brought the missing piece up to it? Kind of like the liquid metal from T2. Granted, the alien metal in Sof47 wasn't "torn" per se... it was just crumpled and it restored it's original flat shape... we haven't seen alien metal torn and automatically rejoin (yet - as far as I can remember).

Why didn't Max ever fix it at least? Couldn't he fix it? It wouldn't seem to me a very difficult task (even for podsters who didn't/don't have a full mastery of their "gifts" just yet). Although, like I (or the writers) know *anything* about alien metal.

Melodious

Anyway, I was wondering if it was in the Tess, Lies and Videotape episode where Liz tells Max that Tess scares her. I think she basically said, "...She sacres me, Max." Or was it a later episode?

quote:Originally posted by TVPooh:
I just finished watching Tess, Lies and Videotape. Warning Bells should have been going off in everyone's heads after that episode gosh... how could the podsters NOT figure out she was evil?! Here are my thoughts:
...

Maria and Liz didn't trust test. Liz says "now that tess is here, it's odd." Michael didn't trust Tess. Max repeated several times that he felt like something was controlling him. He can't focus. I think Stepford Max started here and our Liz knew Tess was evil from the beginning.

Harding and Tess were really creepy and would scare the heck out of me. I would NOT classify them as "normal" if I were Isabel. I also think he was serius about killing Liz.

In season 3, they should make Liz the leader!

I so agree with you, TVPooh. Liz has the best gut instincts of all of them. She seems to be the one who thinks things through thoroughly. (uh, sorry about that, and is that redundant?) And, she's always remained true to her heart, her friends, and her world.

After reading through these threads, I'm quickly switching from being a big Max fan to being an even bigger Liz fan.

1) Liz stopped TEOTW. (Much more impressive than Tess's skin charbroil.)
2) Liz was recruited by CW - a different alien.
3) Liz's future seems destined to have true love.
4) Liz's discovers she has been "changed". (Maybe not a good thing.)
5) Liz solves that Alex death mystery.

Although not seen as often as we like, Liz's importances seemed to be even more firmly cemented in season two.

1) Liz stopped TEOTW. (Much more impressive than Tess's skin charbroil.)
2) Liz was recruited by CW - a different alien.
3) Liz's future seems destined to have true love.
4) Liz's discovers she has been "changed". (Maybe not a good thing.)
5) Liz solves that Alex death mystery.

Although not seen as often as we like, Liz's importances seemed to be even more firmly cemented in season two.

Have ya'll already discussed #4 on this thread? I am very curious as to why her new powers (or whatever they are) have not really been mentioned or explored since that episode. Also, why did Eva know Liz had been "changed," yet Tess did not? You'd think Tess generally would know more about human/alien interaction and the side effects of said interaction having been raised by Nacedo. As far as I understand, the four in New York pretty much raised themselves (or am I completely wrong in that?), so why are they so well-informed?

Just some of the things I wonder sometimes...

I think the simple answer is that they didn't know what they did.... I think they needed to have a way to "reach" Max. A different way than what Isabel has done in the past. We haven't seen it since, and frankly, I would be glad if we never see another power surge from Liz again.... But hopefully, we can still get some answers.

Melodious: Saw that bit about the pendant, and saw it symbolic of Max and Liz, two pieces that when put together make a better whole.

At least Max is more whole when he is with Liz.

Same with the orb symbol on the pendant, two lines that swirl together to form one symbol.

First, some background. We discussed the Zia sun symbol, expressing the belief that good things were sent into this world in fours. Now part of the New Mexico state flag,
this symbol is seen on the sheriff’s building. It seems to connote well-being, harmony, balance, completeness. We contrasted this fourfold symbol with some threefold ones that denote danger (radioactivity), or fallout shelters to hide from such danger.

Such symbols are seen on the UFO center (originally built as a fallout shelter).

Now, notice what play is made with these symbols in the first few minutes of TC. The camera angle places Max (in alien costume) adjacent to the 3 symbol. Soon after, Roswell’s peace officers, Valenti and Hanson, walk past the 4 symbol (which is in the corresponding place on their building, left of the doors). What happens in between? We see Liz, next to this one-diamond symbol:

(If you like, you can also note that once again there is something two-sided, in the surroundings.)

One interpretation that suggests itself is that the three aliens (in danger, in hiding) need one more to make a complete unit that will be a force for peace and security, and that Liz is the one.

It's my sister's birthday. Please give us some scoops of Roswell!

Happy Birthday! Hopefully, this was on her wish list: Emilie de Ravin won't be a regular cast member next season, and most likely, we won't see her at all.

Nemo - great to see you posting! I LOVE all the visuals you find!

Wooo-Hoooo on Melinda joining the writers staff. I am SO psyched. I dont see any hint of trouble at all - rather - I would guess that Ron Moore and JK would have liked to have been working with her all along but that TPTB at the WB felt that they wanted "teeny bopper" writers with actual screenwriting credentials. I would bet that the UPN (my new FAVORITE network) is willing to make riskier moves - such as hiring a non-screenwriter.

Oh what a happy Roswell Day it is.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Nemo--wonderful picture symbolism as always, but I wanted to ask you, its been a long while since I have seen you post a speculation about the happenings on Roswell--have any of your theories changed from season1, if so how and why?

Starbox--I think adding a female perspective could be a good thing I read all the books, I liked them to a point but I must say that JK did a much better job with Season1 Roswell than was done with these books--my problems with Roswell are with Season2 the so called REINVENTION of ROSWELL(the slow destruction was more like it). Sorry Mr KKB but the SCIFI in Season1 was far more compelling and realistic than anything I have laid my eyes on in Season2---and Season1 had it all--a beautiful blend of Scifi, Romance, Drama, Suspense, Intrigue, Comedy, sometimes the show was SLOW and methodical(necessary at times) and sometimes we picked up the pace (towards seasons end yes to pick up the pace at certain times is good--but to have nonstop action just for action is pointless action to me) but the show ALWAYS ALWAYS had HEART, I felt so much for these characters in Season1. But when the show got some recognition from those crazy tobasco sending fans and everyone was curious and tuned into Roswell to finally give it a chance--what did you do--you gave them this so called reinvented Roswell, only a shadow of its former self-----you should have given them the real deal----I certainly hope UPN will be open to this concept. Sorry once I get wound up its hard to stop LOL!!!!

Chris

Qfanny - this is one area I have to disagree with you - I love the idea of Liz with powers (currently, astral projection and a heightened sense of intuition) - but not because they are "alien" powers, but because they are "Human" powers that someone with greatly developed brains can access. Of course, this plays well with my "acient common ancestor" theory! Amazing how I can always come around to that theory!

Oh - and Welcome Newbies!!

I always thought the pendant was made of Earth materials, not alien, and have always thought it was interesting that River Dog was the one that had possession of the piece of the pendant broken off! How did he get possession of it??

Nemo - totally cool about the NM flag! Never knew that!

So - Am I the only one (with Qfanny) who saw Atlantis and the Roswell connections??

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

I'd also thought, at the time I first saw that episode, that Max healing Liz must've brought out some latent abilities. Where can I find you "ancient common ancestor" theory? I'm intrigued...

ChrisChris, I think you misunderstand what is meant by Liz's Importance to the alien mythology, and that we really do think alike. Although I suspect you and my friend Qfanny would be closest to thinking alike. True, some here do think Liz has alien ancestry, but many don't, and that's not what the "Importance" is about. It's more like the only way to have history not repeat itself and the podsters all die is if Liz fullfills her own destiny--her human destiny, that is.
Does that make sense to you, Chris?

Vihmakass, so, it seems you are questioning what the granilith really is. I think the writers decided to write it out of the script, and when they did this, it left a lot of confusion.
I also think that when Rath said it was a religious object that either he was lying, or that is what most of the people on Antar and the other 5 planets believed, but some (Nicholas, Rath, Lonnie, Congresswoman W., and maybe Courtney) knew otherwise, that it had lots of physical energy and power. They didn't want the people to know it had power, so they told them it was sacred so they wouldn't touch it. --just an idea.

I agree with nermal that the broken pendant was supposed to symbolize Max and Liz apart. They could have made up a story about someone (River Dog? Nasedo? Atherton?) breaking it on purpose. Ooo! I have an idea! Maybe TicTac broke it when he heard Nasedo's deal with Kvar! Hmmmm, except I'm not believing in TicTac anymore...well, then, I guess maybe I'll have to believe in him again.
And Mel, TicTac would have used his Alien powers to saw it in 2. Oh, and in Departure I think Max says it is from his planet.

I will be really interested to see Melinda's influence on the new season. Over on the books-in-comparison-to-show thread, we discussed how "Departure" was the departure from the books because in many ways it was the same as the last scene of the last book when Liz saves Max from the 'mindwarp' of the Collective Consciousness and one of the late-arriving aliens blasts off.

Oh, goodie. Then I don't have to worry about "our" Roswell being bent (pretzelized) to fit the shape of the books' plotlines? Has MM written adult fiction as well? Given the sophisticated audience lead in from Buffy, I'd hate to show up with somehting like Galactica 1980.

"Late-arriving alien". Hmm. Blonde, about so tall, cute? Looks a whole lot like The Demon Curopira, from Beastmaster?

Chris

Ah! An interesting perspective... Liz is not an Alien (right, Qfanny?), so she isn't in their mythology. (Yet.) I could go for that.

Isn't it possible Tess knew but chose not to divulge the information. If Liz was changed and it does mean something(and I hope it does) that Max risked everything to save her and Tess knew this maybe she didn't want to have to answer any questions. I don't know when the creators of the show decided Tess was going to turn out to be a betrayer but at this point I'm wondering how much of what she's told us can be trusted.

I saw Mummy Returns and I see what you are saying. That would be a pretty cool idea.

Wouldn't it have to be from his planet with the symbol that is on it?

Okay, think about this, remember when Tess asked lonnie and Rath about Mike and Isabel when they all were planning on going home without them, now I now why...because Tess needed MIKE and ISABEL to complete the bargin, along with King Max...so when they did that, that was yet another one of those loops that got throw in Tess's plans to get Max back to go home...

See, I figured it out now, everybody wanted to go home, but everybody ALSO had their own agenda, and everybody was sceming on each other, without each other knowing it...hence Tess's weird reactions to the whole situation thru MITC, she knew that Max wouldn't give up the Granolith, but at the same time, they were times when she thougth he might slip and give in...

Had he did, then her plans could not be completed, make sense????

The news about Melinda and her partner joining the writing staff is great!! I still hope that she doesn't do any triangles but I do hope they inc. more Liz/Max sci-fi....which is good....

Charmiene - I discuss and describe the theory in the Intro. The table of contents should lead you to it. The basic theory is that the aliens are descendent from either an advanced ancient race of humans that left Earth to escape a huge catastrophy or an ancient race of aliens that came to Earth and populated and inter-bred with the exiting "humans" of the time. I look at the connections of Machu Pichu and other references to ancient civilizations of Season 1 AND the fact that the V constellation would not Look like a V from Antar - only from Earth - so would make no sense to be their symbol unless some Earth involvement in creating it. Finally, I theorize that Liz is descended from this same group somehow - though totally "human" yet connected. Hope that makes sense!!

Shapeshifter - while I think you are correct re: the Granolith - I'm hoping that somehow it is resurrected - and that it does turn out that they were all mistaken, and the "ship" was not the Granolith after all! It would be so much more fun! (I heard Ron Moore was upset at what they did to the Granolith! I wonder if there is anyone who knows if this is true??) And what - NOT believe in Tic Tac! Oh No! Never give up hope!

Kylester3 - I have to agree with you that maybe Tess (and Harding) knew more about Liz's change than they were divulging! I think this is true about not only Liz, but MUCH more - including the Destiny Book translation, etc.

If Max said that the pendent was from his planet - in the Jeep scene of Departure - I had forgotten it (though I vaguely do remember he said something like that??) - but that still doesn't necessarily mean it would have been constructed from material as indestructible as the 1947 ship. Different materials used for different items based on need and use. It would be fun if the pendent turned out to be significant!! Waiting in Atherton's hidden basement all those years just waiting to be found!

As far as Melinda being added - I think it is a good sign to continuity and storyline. I read all the books, and while they were a quick read, they were fun, and there was fairly good continuity throughout! Also, Liz and Max were definitely the focus of the books though all the characters got their "storyline" of interest. However, the backstory for Liz - especially - was significant and mostly lost due to the choice to not make her Hispanic. Also, there was no "Royal 4" nosense. (did I say that!! )

Back to work!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

I hope no one minds me dropping by! I have read many theories on this thread and I am sooooo impressed

So many of you have thought through this very thoroughly!

This is just my opinion, I hope it's okay, it's no where near as though out as what I've read here!

I think Liz is some kind of key to the survival of the podsters/Antar/Earth. When Max healed Liz he awakened not only something in her, but something in himself: the leader.
Liz has shown on numerous occasions that she can predict, maybe she is some sort of oracle?
In HOM she knew at the Crashdown that something was about to change: she felt it.
In CYN and ITLITB she knew that Alex was murdered.
It was Liz who connected Amy's finger tapping, with both Kyle's finger tapping (in the diner) and Alex's finger tapping on his guitar.
In MITC Liz knew (perhaps her strongest feeling ever) that Max was in trouble. I feel that S3 is going to blow me away! Thanks for letting me pop in!

As far as the books go I thought they were decent--very easy to read, very quick read like Zero said. Although I liked the Collective Consciousness storyline I thought it dragged on a bit too long but actually I think Shapeshifter brought up the fact that our own Stepford Max in the past several episodes reminds us of this CC feel. Oh boy another CC word LOL!!!!

Well I said awhile back that I would try to post some positive stuff that I liked in Season2 so here goes...

I thought S and B's and Ask NOt were both decent episodes. Didn't care for Surprise really at all, the only two things I liked in that was Alex's dance(very cute) and Maria's line "Oh BOOHOO" LOL--loved that one.
Summer of 47 was okay too but I wished we learned more, I thought it would be better, EOTW of course was so emotionally moving, something Jason Katims does so well, although very sad, I thought it was well done all around. Didn't care for Harvest or Meet the Dupes, but Max In The City I thought was well done, liked the whole feel to it, the music, the stencil on the brain--one of the first pieces of SCIFI that worked for me. I do hope that it was in fact showing the V symbol stencil on the brain and not something being IMPLANTED though, after seeing our Stepford Max lately I have to wonder LOL!!! ARCC eppy had its moments the idea of restoring the balance was a good one, the cute exchange between M and M of gifts was cute and funny, didn't care for turkey cooking Tess though LOL this seemed to much of a change for me with her and Isabels xmas nazi--was just okay, I thought that came a bit out of left field too, so it didn't work for me but not a bad eppy all in all, it did have more of that JK FEEL which is always a plus.

I liked the IDEA of the HYBRID chronicles in itself but not the execution of these ideas I guess--thought this would be better. Kyle of course has been much better developed in Season2 than Season1--very funny and likeable too--a plus!!!! Bill Sadler too always lends a great deal of credibility to his role on Roswell--another plus!!! I did like the budding romance of Jim and Amy so cute.

Of course the character of Sean was brought in during these eppies and I didn't even want to like Sean but I do LOL!!!! I still wonder whether they are trying to sneak an enemy in there but so far I like Sean, and Brody too of course I have liked, but he too we really have to wonder about still.

VLV didnt care for too many people acting like jerks, Michael cheating, Isabel slipping away with some unknown guy, naturally I did like the PRECOGNITION or little old memory between M and L it was sweet and Maria sang a pretty song there at the end but overall not one of my favs.

Now I come to the last arc--out of this arc I would say HOM and CYN were my favs but one thing I did like about this six story arc was that they were character driven and the pacing was much much better on these than many of the others in season2. Yes I know the storyline was a bit depressing and ugly but I did like the fact that they were character driven LOL!!! And again the MUSIC---who picks the music they do such a great job with that!!! Well thats all for now.

1) Slimy, running from Pohlman Ranch. This IS the flash that Michael gets from Tess when she comes to his window in Four Square.

2) In the trailer with Hank; Hank removes his belt; Michael runs out crying. This is a completely NEW flash! It's also the one that's intercut specifically with the Whirlwind Galaxy.

3) Max, Michael and Isabel holding hands in the desert, from The Balance.

What all do they mean (and how do they relate to Liz ), I'm not sure yet. I thought it was important that one of those flashes WAS associated with Tess, though

Also, 2 things I noticed in Departure that I don't believe were mentioned.
1) At the beginning, when Michael sits down with Maria & Max & Liz go upstairs to talk, there is a huge wheel on the outside wall behind M&L. Same type of wagon wheel as in Harvest.
2) When Liz et al go into the granoluth chamber, the swirling inside the granolith looks like it's in a double helix shape. For some reason it made me think of the double helix on the wall of the CD, framed by M&L's V-shaped hands, at the end of SH. That is undoubtedly wishful thinking, but it just occurred to me so I thought I'd share
~Tas

I took an internet break for two (?) days and I feel like I've missed a lot of good conversation. Don't worry, I still found plenty of time for my Roswell fix by watching Season 2 eps. I finished Departure this morning. After all of the shows and catching up on the thread, my brain is basically mush. But here are a few random thoughts that came to mind when watching:

1. In HOM, Max describes his Antarian "memories" to Michael. He says, "for some reason those of Tess are the clearest." (Paraphrase)

2. How come the gandarium (a.k.a. blue jello) survives in a plastic bag or sealed jar? Wouldn't it "use up" the oxygen? Or does it just need the presence of O2 to survive?

3. In WAF, Laurie comments on being "so cold." Someone (I can't remember who, sorry) earlier in this thread was discussing comments about "cold." However, Alex, on his return from Sweeden (while showing the slides) comments on how the "cold" in Roswell is NOT cold compared to Sweeden.

4. (I wish I had a transcript for this one) In WAF, Liz approaches Max about getting back together. But this time, Max is the one who discourages it. He tells Liz that he wants her to be able to "grow." Liz later looks at this negatively, but maybe Max is the one with the intuition at this point since Liz needed to develop more who she is so that she'd be able to solve the mystery later. Also, Max has a nice quote here that whatever Liz does, "I'll be here when you get back." This really seems like a foreshadow of their rift and reconciliation. Liz left the group for a while to seek answers, she changed some more in her intuition and independence, and then returned to the group--and Max was there (both when he said "goodbye" and after Tess took off).

5. In Departure, Kyle recalls Alex and Tess mindwarps him. Kyle and Tess then hug and Kyle starts tapping his fingers on her back! Also, someone theorized eariler (sorry I can't remember who) that the finger tapping was something unplanned, that Alex just did it in that episode so they used it as a key later. But in re-watching CYN, Alex's finger tapping is so obvious not only by the camera angles, but through the sound. You can hear it loudly throughout the whole scene. It must have been planned.

Wow! I wrote a lot more than I thought I would. Roswell is just so AWESOME! I'm just so bummed that we have to wait 4 months! before a new episode. At least we Mythers have each other!

P.S. The Tex and baby HAVE TO BE FAKE!

(We see Liz waiting around in an empty room. Max comes in)

MAX: I got your note. What's wrong?

LIZ: Nothing. No. No, um...that's not true. Umm...I've just been thinking a lot lately, and...have you ever wanted to see Sweden?

MAX: Sweden?

LIZ: I mean or anywhere. Peru, Nigeria, New Zealand...

MAX: Sure. But the closest I'm gonna get right now is the granilith chamber. Why?

LIZ: Watching Alex this week...I just realized that...it's our right to see the world, to live our dreams...

MAX: Liz, that can't happen.

LIZ: Live life. Why?

MAX: Because it doesn't work that way for us. You know that.

LIZ: You and Isabel and Michael and Tess are...you guys are getting cheated on a lot of things, and it's not fair. None of it is.

MAX: Liz, you...should get to see Sweden. We...I...hold you back.

LIZ: No, Max.

MAX: Kyle was right.

LIZ: That's not true.

MAX: Everyone we touch gets hurt in some way or another. 5 years from now, I don't want you to open your eyes and realize that...that you missed out. You're part of the group. You always will be. But you need to be allowed to...to grow.

LIZ: Why can't you come with me?

MAX: Because I can't. But I'll be watching you, Liz Parker. Wherever you go...and I'll be here when you get back.

Just my opinion...hope I didn't upset anyone!

~Sheri

Just my opinion...hope I didn't upset anyone!

~Sheri

Before Max and Liz can really be together again, some serious apologies and revelations (I.e., FMax discussion) need to pass between them. I still believe (no pun intended) that Max and Liz should be together. Max did treat Liz poorly in the end of S2, but Liz was pretty cruel to Max throughout the season. She was constantly "breaking up" with him after she told him that she didn't want to be with him in TEOTW. I really don't like that Max slept with Tess (Mindwarp or not), but Max did believe that Liz and Kyle slept together.

I hope that addresses some of your questions.

Just my opinion...hope I didn't upset anyone!

~Sheri

Hi SciFiMom! I agree w/you on Sean. He does grow on you, doesn't he? So, I wouldn't like to see Liz just dump him in S3. He has shown her a lot of respect and so I think he deserves to be treated well.

And as for Max, well... he is still a teenage boy (physically, anyway). My momma told me love has little to do w/sex for a male. And, if it did, then I'd say that he wouldn't be the first person to drown his sorrows or sleep around to get over a heartache.

Also, I understand what you mean about Liz. As a grown woman, I don't think I could put up with the situation that Liz is faced with. I saw Witchblade last night, and one of the characters (Ian Nottingham) told Sarah (the main character who wields the blade) that the reason the blade chooses women, and not men, is because they can bear pain. (And, from pain come life, etc., etc...) I think this is too true - not only for the physical, but for the emotional and maybe mental as well.

OK-- this is too much thought for 9:00 in the am. I'm going to get my second cup of coffee....

Sci Fi Mom - I don't think you are alone in wondering about Liz with Max. I love the Liz/Max coupling from Season 1 and occasionally in Season 2!! But there are a LOT of issues that need to be dealt with before I will accept Liz going back with Max. I still think that together they make a force to reckon with, but ... It will be interesting to see how it all evolves in S3! My loyalties lie with Liz though.

Finally, I've been meaning to raise the following observation, but keep forgetting. I believe that one of Liz's "powers" is a heighten sense of intuition, but what if ... In Departure, you see Liz ponding on the rock wishing she could communicate with the Podsters, then all of a sudden Mikey G decides he can't go with the Podsters and has to stay - which leads to him going out to find L/M/K outside waiting/yelling for him. WHAT IF Liz somehow "communicated" with him - give him the "feeling" that he had to go out of the chamber? I would love others to watch this scene and see if you get this same feeling that somehow there was (could be) some communication going on??

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Thanks ~Sheri

(scene opens with Liz sitting on her bed.
she is thinking and then reaches for the phone on her nightstand.. she dials a number and this is the phone conversation..:

MAX: Hello

LIZ: Max?

MAX: Liz? What's wrong??

LIZ: oh..nothing..but i..um..i just really need to talk to you..

MAX: are you alright?

LIZ: ya..i'm..i'm fine..um..do you think you could come here..so we can talk?

MAX: ya..i'll be right over..

LIZ: ok..bye..

( end of phone conversation..goes to Liz sitting on her bed kind of nevously when there is a tap on her window [it's max] she goes over and opens it and lets max in..)

LIZ: hey..thanks for coming...sit down..

( they sit down next to each other on Liz's bed)

MAX: so..what's up?..

LIZ: Max..you..came to me..

MAX: huh??

LIZ: you came to me in..in the future..it was like..ten years from now...you told me to make you stop loving me.. (while she is talking max has a sensible but confused look on his face..liz is softly crying too) you..you said that since you were with me tess left and then earth was attacked..envaded..by the..warriors.. and you guys weren't strong enough because you didn't have all four of you..and he..you.. said that Isabel and Michael had..died..and..thats..thats why..i set that thing up with tess..and thats why i acted like i slept with Kyle..i..i..don't know wht it means..i don't think we can..be together..

(Liz lays her head against max's chest [she is crying harder now] max puts his arms around her..he is crying too..)

(then it goes to openning credits)

SO...what do you think? i know it could be better but i just thought that would be a good way to start things..it IS kind of a lot for before openning credits.. but i think it could work..i know that wasn't the best so i need your guys' in put!!!

thanx for reading!!!! ~ERIN~

(scene opens with Liz sitting on her bed.
she is thinking and then reaches for the phone on her nightstand.. she dials a number and this is the phone conversation..:

MAX: Hello

LIZ: Max?

MAX: Liz? What's wrong??

LIZ: oh..nothing..but i..um..i just really need to talk to you..

MAX: are you alright?

LIZ: ya..i'm..i'm fine..um..do you think you could come here..so we can talk?

MAX: ya..i'll be right over..

LIZ: ok..bye..

( end of phone conversation..goes to Liz sitting on her bed kind of nevously when there is a tap on her window [it's max] she goes over and opens it and lets max in..)

LIZ: hey..thanks for coming...sit down..

( they sit down next to each other on Liz's bed)

MAX: so..what's up?..

LIZ: Max..you..came to me..

MAX: huh??

LIZ: you came to me in..in the future..it was like..ten years from now...you told me to make you stop loving me.. (while she is talking max has a sensible but confused look on his face..liz is softly crying too) you..you said that since you were with me tess left and then earth was attacked..envaded..by the..warriors.. and you guys weren't strong enough because you didn't have all four of you..and he..you.. said that Isabel and Michael had..died..and..thats..thats why..i set that thing up with tess..and thats why i acted like i slept with Kyle..i..i..don't know wht it means..i don't think we can..be together..

(Liz lays her head against max's chest [she is crying harder now] max puts his arms around her..he is crying too..)

(then it goes to openning credits)

SO...what do you think? i know it could be better but i just thought that would be a good way to start things..it IS kind of a lot for before openning credits.. but i think it could work..i know that wasn't the best so i need your guys' in put!!!

thanx for reading!!!! ~ERIN~

Wow love the theory/idea for S3 E1, but only if that opening scene leads to M&L reconciling, not splitting them apart!!

I don't know if my signature thing really fits with this message i just wrote but oh well!!!!

Anyway..if tess comes back and the kid (if there is a kid) comes with her..then i just think that liz would feel VERY awkward if she was with max...i mean here is this girl he slept with and there is this kid that is his...geees!!!! and i think max would be very confused with things like..this is my kid...i love liz..what about tess?? i mean he wants his kid..but he doesn't inperticularly like tess right now..and hopefully never will...she totaly betrayed him...sooo...if tess doesn't come back..then won't it go back to the old timeline [the M/L timeline) and wouldn't that mean destruction of the earth and iz and mike dying....This is soooo confusing..man.. i hope JK has thought this through and has a good plan of fixing it...if he doesn't maybe S3 will be a very loophole-y thing...hopefully he will answer all the questions and not do something when before it says he can't do that....well please write back so i can get everyone else's point of views!!! LoVe Ya GuYs ~ERIN~

( i don't really know if me signature thing goes with my post..but oh well!!!

Band Practice(Alex says he is just going to)
Bowling Partner(Maria refers to Sean as Liz's bowling partner)
Byson's Pub----in CYN the sheriff questions the guy in the hospital about how many beers he had at Bysons Pub? Didn't Sean try to offer Liz a beer and then said forget it heres a soda?

So we have Band Practice, Bowling Partner, and Bysons Pub.

Also another little footnote--Max's name in VLV was RobRoy or RoyRob---one thing I know about this story is his wife was carrying a child that was NOT HIS!!!! hmmmm maybe!!!!

Another little set I came up with is Polar Bear(Sean tells Liz that joke about "so the mother why would you ask if you are a fake polar bear?
In Cry Your Name--the boys are asked to be Pall Bearers for Alex's funeral
and Maria refers to Michael as being the Perfect Boyfriend
Polar Bears,Pall Bearers, Perfect Boyfriend.

just thought I would throw that out there!!!

1) When Max grabs Liz arm and Liz tells him to let go of her, the look on his face is clearly "what am I doing?!" as if he is obviously mindwarped.

I also think his decision to off Leanna in Departure is a Mindwarp. And the flowers from the Olsens could have been sent by Jennifer/Leanna to try to alert the humans to the plot.

2) Back to ITLITB: When Tess & Max sneak back into the Valenti's after having Tex, They both carefully put the Sheriff's coat down by the door. (Thanks Reggie for noticing it's the Sheriff's coat). So, if they had hot alien sex on the coat, wouldn't there be some evidence? Or maybe aliens don't leave any behind?

For recent ones, use the FanForum "Search" feature in the right column of the page that lists all the threads for Roswell. Use "Mythology" as a term 'in the thread subject only.'
For older ones: http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology --be sure to read the paragraph at the top of the page.

[b]1) When Max grabs Liz arm and Liz tells him to let go of her, the look on his face is clearly "what am I doing?!" as if he is obviously mindwarped.

I also think his decision to off Leanna in Departure is a Mindwarp. And the flowers from the Olsens could have been sent by Jennifer/Leanna to try to alert the humans to the plot.

2) Back to ITLITB: When Tess & Max sneak back into the Valenti's after having Tex, They both carefully put the Sheriff's coat down by the door. (Thanks Reggie for noticing it's the Sheriff's coat). So, if they had hot alien sex on the coat, wouldn't there be some evidence? Or maybe aliens don't leave any behind?

SS---I totally agree that when Max grabs Liz's arm in the school hallway, it appears he snaps out of a mind-warp at that moment,and to add: I think Liz KNOWS that is not the Max she knows. I think that's one of the biggest clues that mind-warping was involved in Max's actions towards the end of the season.....
I also agree that Max attempting to kill Leanna was a mind-warp by Tess. I think Tess may have even sent the flowers with a card signed by the Olsen's.............
Valenti's jacket, that's very interesting, I never considered that before, more evidence of mind-warping in my opinion.

I didn't realize that was the SHERIFFS coat? I missed this, Reggie posted this, I missed this hmmmm!!!!

My take on that scene first shown in FOUR SQUARE when Tess says "you already know" and then Michael flashes is that Tess gave him that vision---I do not believe it just came to him like he said to Max later in the episode.

Just to give you a little background, the topic came up at the spoilers board when someone was asking for some speculation on the crystal Michael found in the end of BABY ITS YOU. They wanted to know how it got there and were did it come from?

So, after doing some rereading of transcripts and watching some slideshows off my computer, I connected something! In the episodes 285 SOUTH and the ones after, Michael starting receiving visions about this dome-like structure. When the Roswell gang arrived there to investigate, Michael found a box. Isabel recovered the same necklace that Max gave to Liz in the end of DEPARTURE. Well, following this discovery, Max and Isabel had taken the box to their house. Before the gang was able to discover what was inside, the Evans' house was burglarized and the box turned up missing! So my speculation was that maybe what was originally inside of that box might have been all of those alien artifacts: the healing stones, the crystal to activate the granolith, the necklace, and the DESTINY BOOK! What if the shapeshifter gave it to Artherton for safe keeping?

I was speculating even further that maybe it was Nasedo/Tess who are responsible for stealing the box at the Evans' house. Since we now know Nasedo made that deal with Kivar 40 yrs. ago and Tess went along with it, it would make some sense. I also pointed out the similarity between the box Michael found and the box in the Hardings' residence (the one that contained all those pictures of Max)in TESS,LIES, AND VIDEOTAPE. All of these items were probably once contained in this box together. Afterall, it is Tess who introduced the DESTINY BOOK to the rest of the gang. She pulled it out of the Library Wall! My theory is she had the crystal too!
I guess the big question is, if the Hardings' are responsible for stealing the box, what are they trying to hide? I have a hard time excepting the fact that the translation to the book brought back by Alex through Tess is the truth! I mean if the aliens destiny all along was to be together among one another, what is the whole point of a DESTINY BOOK? IF Tess knew that is all there was too it, why all the secrecy in decoding the book without any knowledge from the other aliens? Was she afraid she would found out something she did not want the others to know? Even if Kivar made a deal with Nasedo, Who's to say Tess told the truth or the whole truth about what the deal was about! She has already proven herself to be deceitful and out for her own interests!

Guess we'll have to wait and see! But just some speculation I have put together when I put some thought into it! Feel free to express what you think. Bye for now!

PEACE EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What if someone used some kind of power on Dr. Margolin, and he thought Topolsky was dead? Maybe it was a mindwarp, I think if the others tried they could do it too, so any alien, skin or shapeshifter, could use the mindwarp.

Max: I always thought when we graduated I would give you my ring. (handing her the pendant they found at Atherton's) It looks like I won't graduate, so this is something from where I'll be.

Liz: I can't believe that this is what I have of you. I can't believe that after everything...

Max: Liz, you never slept with Kyle, did you?

Liz shakes her head no

Max: I wish, I wish this all could have been different. I wish that so much.

Max kisses her

Liz: I guess that this is our goodbye. Just tell me one thing do you love her?

Max: Not like I love you.

Liz walks sadly to the Crashdown. She turns around just before she goes in and Max smiles a goodbye to her. After she goes inside, he collapses against the steering wheel in tears.

the part where he says Max: Not like I love you.

it means he loves tess ..somehow.. but he loves liz a lot more...i think he only (somewhat) loved her because he loved her on the other world so he kind of remembered..but his love with liz was soooooo.....oooo....oooo.....much stronger!!!!
besides the denial pool is sooo crowded...who wants to come with me to the Max/Liz HOPE pool...its really big and its the perfect temp.!!!!!! STOP BEING DREAMERS..BE HOPERS!!!! LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

(i don't think i posted this on this sight but oh well if i did!!! here it is again!!!)

They never show max ****tapping**** so maybe it wasn't a mindwarp...although i REALLY hope it was!!!!

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

They never show max ****tapping**** so maybe it wasn't a mindwarp...although i REALLY hope it was!!!!

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

Maybe it's because Max is a hybrid just like Tess, so only the humans would to the tapping thing. Remember she mindwarped Max in Tess Lies and Videotape, and he didn't tap then, so I think it just affects humans.

I am however, still believing that Future Max was a mindwarp.... I suppose I'm going to have to write some lengthy, boring as hell, explanation as to why I can justify this....

Oh well, of to the chad's thread for some research....

Love that scene in the Jeep too - just wish it was longer and covered more given it was supposedly the LAST time they thought they would see each other!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

THIS WAS A QUESTION ASKED TO ME SO I WANTED TO POST MY ANSWER TO IT AND SEE WHAT YOU GUYS THINK!!! OKAY?!!!! :

about your second question....that is a really good question!!! but how was Fmax suppose to know that happened if he had the other timeline....??...maybe since now there might be an heir of max (MAYBE)that he will take over and will make peace with the worlds so that no warriors envade earth in the future and Liz and max can live happily ever after!!! sound good to you???

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

(confusing right?) hehe!!!

(confusing right?) hehe!!!

Yep they can die..remember EOTW max said and izzy 2 weeks b4 and micheal died before he reached the granolith.

I am however, still believing that Future Max was a mindwarp.... I suppose I'm going to have to write some lengthy, boring as hell, explanation as to why I can justify this....

Oh well, of to the chad's thread for some research....

Thanks (I suppose). I didn't make it all a mindwarp, just a little. The right little, of course.

For the baffled: I've written an episode, "Departure, Part 2". I've a couple of scenes to hand-polish, then I'll let everyone see. It fixes most stuff, and brings Tess back.

I'm suffering computer problems at the moment: my laptop's modem's fancy cable was chewed in two (by Sibling's new cur... er, puppy), so that's waiting for a mail-ordered cable. Meanwhile, I'm doing e-mail on my next-oldest computer, which has no web browser, and webbing on my Sibling's computer. DP2 is on the laptop, whose disk drive is also acting up so I can't copy it to disk and send it from another computer.

Computers: what would we do without 'em?

I thought it was VERY strange how Tess just happened to show up at the observatory in ITLAITB. She says something like, "I'd thought I'd find you here." Yeah, like she didn't have anything to do with that. She's also carrying the coat. I could not tell what it was (I thought it was a blanket--since during a re-watch, I knew where it was going (no matter how much I didn't want to see it again)). I guess a blanket would have been TOO obvious.

Regarding Max's "Tapping" or Not:
I agree that the tapping could just be a human reaction, but I think it's more of a signal that someone is about to "break out" of a mindwarp or minderase. Max never "broke out" of his--he was just told what happened to others. Unfortunately, I doubt that we'll get to see Max "realize" that the Tex and baby were fake or at least that Tess was MWing him pretty bad. But like to imagine an S3 primer with LIZ and Max doing some "memory retrieval exercises" and Max start tapping as he figures it out. That would probably be a good scene--especially if Liz also takes the opportunity (now that Max is seeing things "clearly") to tell him about FMax. I leave it to you fanfic writers (Reggie?) to work out the details.

Where was I? Oh, Max and "tapping." Max was definitely NOT himself during the last 5 eps. (Btw, can someone explain "Stepford" to me? I remember some old phrase "stepford wives," but I really have no idea what that means. Was it a movie? Thanks.) Anyway, Max was being "Stepford" Max, but there were a few solid moments where Max was "Normal" Max and moments where he was "Confused" Max.

I see CMax most clearly when he's at the trashcans. He KNOWS something is very, VERY wrong and his whole life is all mixed up and he just loses it. CMax also makes an appearance when he grabs Liz's arm. There is certainly recognition in Max at that moment that something is not right, but he just doesn't know what.

Normal Max is the one who tells Isabel that she is his "home." NMax also begins the goodbye conversation with Liz in the jeep, but I think CMax is the one crying. He had such a nice moment with Liz, he KNOWS that he loves her and she is his destiny but he still says goodbye--he's compelled to say "goodbye," but he KNOWS that is WRONG--Hence the appearance of CMax, complete with tears.

Well, I went off a little more than I intended (again). Feedback, anyone?

Get Liz out of the way, make the group learn where the granalith was could have been the plan the whole time.

I kept wanting to tell Max to shut his mouth before any more drool escaped.
When he started doing the memory retrieval it was like he lost his brain and common sense also.

If Max was mindwarped, it was subtle. It certainly seems that he did everything of his own free will.

Maybe part of Tess's powers include that ability to put their victim in a trance-like state, making them more open to suggestion?
Kind of like hypnosis. That seems to be more akin to what Max experienced with Tess, starting in Tess, Lies, and Videotape.

What I did catch when I rewatched part of Heart of Mine and thought about the past few eps, is how Liz's instincts always seemed to be right on (I believe someone mentioned this before), that Alex's death was alien related, that they couldn't trust Tess, that it wasn't right to kill Leanna.

Michael's instincts are pretty good, too.
But Liz's are uncanny. Like she's in tune with the universe or something like that.

Maybe that's what Grandma Claudia meant when she told Liz to follow her heart.

It's going to take me awhile to get back in the groove of these threads again. But for now, I thought I'd drop off my latest collage. It is an illustration for WR's fanfic: The Importance of Being Elizabeth ~ Book Three. http://www.olde.worlde.btinternet.co.uk/wrfanfic.html
Moment

I hope you're all having a fantastic summer!

DreameratHeart - "Stepford Max" come from a classic horror movie called "Stepford Wives" which is based on a book. Here's what a reviewer had to say:
Ira Levin's scary novel about forced conformity in a small Connecticut town made for this compelling 1975 thriller. Katharine Ross stars as a city woman who moves with her husband to Stepford and is startled by how perpetually happy many of the local women seem to be. Her search for an answer reveals a plot to replace troublesome real wives with more accommodating fake ones (not unlike the alien takeover in Invasion of the Body Snatchers). The closer she gets to the truth, the more danger she faces--not to mention the likelihood that the men in town intend to replace her as well. Screenwriter William Goldman (Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid) and director Bryan Forbes (King Rat) made this a taut, tense semiclassic with a healthy dose of satiric wit.

Hope that explains why so many of us thought Max was a Stepford version throughout the last part of Season 2??

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

iluvroswell13, I just started the Roswell High books. Yes, there is a Liz. She's latina, but has basically the same personality as TV Liz. The shock to me was that Book Max is a blue-eyed blond! At least he's still gorgeous . . . But I'll continue to picture JB with SA as I read . . .

Hank's trailer park is named after the Chisholm Trail. I wonder whether someone confused this with the Chisum Trail, of historical importance to Roswell. (Whereas the Chisholm Trail was in Oklahoma.) References: http://www.zianet.com/snm/chisum.htm http://www.onthechisholmtrail.com/cti_info.html

Also, it’s funny that the trailer park sign is in the “Jurassic Park” font, as if Hank is being likened to a dinosaur.

The 3+1+1 business again. Note Deputy Hanson's armload of supplies (looks like blocks of paper towels) as Michael shows up with the candy. The bottom four of these blocks have their ends facing us: 3 ends are flush with each other but the fourth is recessed (looks shorter). There is one more block on top, at right angles to the others.


Both of these features are common in 3+1 or 4+1 patterns throughout S1: the 1 often differs from the 3 or 4 by out of line, or a different height, or at right angles.

Examples: The ceiling lamps at the café look like 4 flying saucers with one of them a little out of formation.
(from TLV; all images from crashdown.com)


During the infamous red-giant discussion in SH, we see 4 specimen jars – 3 tall, 1 shorter. (Sorry, no screencap – don’t you just hate to have to rewatch that one?)

Also (if you’re rewatching SH anyway) note the red-stripe patterns. On the refrigerator there are 4 red stripes behind something round (the Earth?).


There are 3 red stripes on Maria’s sleeves (conspicuous during the high-voltage scene) and 2 more on her skirt.


Apparently someone still likes that 3+2 pattern, they showed it to us recently on Isabel’s running shoes.

. . . Yeah. Such a drag. Especially for us dreamers.

Nemo,
Nice screencaps. I always find the numerical discussions quite intriguing. I have a hard time spotting such details myself when watching--I just get so caught up in the story.

Oh, and, yes, you are also right about Reggie not posting here that the coat was Valenti's. I think that came up on the CHADs thread when there was the whole blanket-or-coat debate. Anyhoo, Tess definitely shows up at the observatory in a jacket, carrying Valenti's coat, on which Tex later occurrs.

Regarding Max not tapping: I think the tapping is only related to an erasure--like an annoying blank spot in one's memory--whereas the windwarps that inplant visions or realities do not cause tapping. --Just a theory!

And thanks, Zero, for the details on Stepped-on Max.

Nemo - nice screencaps! I never noticed Iz's shoes before - the 3+2 is definitely interesting..

And about the coat: to me it all makes perfect sense. Tess mindwarped Max to go to the observatory and showed up with a coat on which to have Tex. Of course, over at the CHADs they're in total denial that Max was ever warped; they think he just morphed into a jerk. So there are definitely different takes on it. Let's hope with Melinda Metz writing next Season they will have enough continuity so that the directors will make it clear who's warped or zapped or whatever and who's not.
Oh, and slight tangent: I think the character of Max became jerkly because JB was afraid of getting mauled by enraptured female fans.

I just had to say first that after reading some postings, I thought it was a very interesting observation on how Deputy Owen (whereever he may be now) strongly resembles Atherton! I never even noticed that! Cool observation!!!!!!

Actually, what is even better is it fits into another speculation or two of mine! Now I know it is completely likely that some of this material has been discussed before, but I haven't had time to go back and read all of the discussions from these threads so I am just going to share what I have been thinking again!!!!!

My speculation goes back to Season 1 again. For awhile now, I have been speculating whether Topolsky could be the other surviving shapeshifter. From information supplied through the episodes, this is what I compiled together: From Season 2 "SUMMER OF 47" we know that there were 4 shapeshifters but only 2 survived and recovered by the government. Now Pierce told Max in the end of Season 1 that one of the shapeshifters had escaped and that it was Nasedo! Well, what if he was lying and it was actually the other shapeshifter that escaped! The shapeshifter that was staying on the Indian Reservation told Riverdog that there was a group after it! Since Nasedo made that deal with Kivar, what if that group was Nasedo and the Special Unit! The shapeshifter probably befriended Artherton and Riverdog and entrusted Atherton with the box of ALIEN ARTIFACTS. Now, Nasedo could have eventually tracked down where the other shapeshifter was and in an attempt to retrieve the alien artifacts from Atherton, killed him or seriously injured him.

Now about the specualtion from another fan above about Atherton resembling Deputy Owen.
Let's say that Owen is Atherton. Maybe the other shapeshifter was able to save Atherton's life before being recaptured by Nasedo and the special unit and he has been living in hiding under a new identity. I read from another fan who had been speculating that maybe Riverdog was not actually witnessing the actual attack on Atherton but maybe the other shapeshifter had been attempting to heal him before recapture. This would make sense if Atherton turned out to be Deputy Owen, alive and well.
Since Agent Topolsky was working in the Special Unit, perhaps she was using her position to help the podsters. In the episodes of "CRAZY" and others around it, she was desperate to meet with Liz to talk to her. She even told Valenti he needed to get Liz and Max to trust her. Why? Unless she knew something the podsters needed to know. I mean why else would Nasedo pose as her "doctor" and prevent the podsters and humans from meeting with her! When she first arrived in ROSWELL as a substitute teacher, did she have some kind of motive in having the podsters paired up with one another for that class assignment? If you read into it, it is almost like she wanted them to get comfortable in knowing one another.

OH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Before I forget!! There is another interesting observation I made in the show "285 SOUTH". I don't know if anyone else caught this but when Agent Topolsky was sitting at her computer, it appeared she had a message on the screen for the SPECIAL UNIT.
Before it was sent, it looked like she incripted it into a secret language!!!!The language appeared to match that found in the DESTINY BOOK and the language found on a stone wall that Riverdog showed Max and Liz in "RIVERDOG".

So in conclusion, does anyone else think that The Special Unit may be a unit set up within the government by other aliens who made their way into the government whose sole purpose was aimed at finding the Royal 4?

Just curious as to what some of you thought!!

Bye for now!!! PEACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I found this screencap at Crashdown:

You're right, the characters do look like those of the Destiny Book. However, on closer inspection, they are not the same. Some of the symbols above are musical symbols and some are symbols for signs of the zodiac. See http://www.astrologycom.com/zodiac2.html for descriptions of those. Some of them are also similar to the glyphs for planets. See http://www.astrologycom.com/planets.html for descriptions.

It looks like this website has a lot of information on symbols. I'll have to check it out and compare it to the DB language when I have a little more time. Gotta run...

~Sheri

All I want is a pool party next year.

*************skin and bones****************

# Did Whitaker know that Peirce was nesado...After all he was didling her all summer. And did she really love him?

# In congress Whitaker talked about a murder in 1972.......Wasnt this the yr of Sheila Hubbles death. She didn't explain any other murders. why?

# Oh yeah, in the lab at st curses uni...I had this feeling that Whitaker knew that something was wrong by the way she was looking at that machine as tess mindwarped them.

********************ask not******************
# I think that unexplainable image of some strange, bloody object that was seen in the series of flashes max had while he was going to kill brody.......Was an image of memory retrival.

# Did you guys notice too that tess wasnt involved in any of the dicisions made by the other 3.

******************surprize*****************
# IM starting to think now that volandra is tess...and izzy is Ava.
# If Tess went to buy Izzy a present what the hell was she doing in the middle of the desert in the first place....I mean was Jensens a town or a store?

If it was a store why go to another town......

*****I THINK THIS WAS FROM ASK NOT****
# Oh when Whitaker was shreading and drinking at the start, she was talking to liz. Liz said that Max has a girl from the past, her name is Tess. If whitaker knows that Tess was his bride then...Why didn't she go after Izzy at the start... cos she would by then know that she is Max's sister.

************BACK TO SURPRIZE*********

# I think that whitaker called IZZy volandra even though she could be really Ava, as a tactic to weaken Izzy's position with the other 3.....therefore this would weaken all of them, making them more vunerable to attack. Think about if someone called u a traitor in your past life that would make you feel guilty that you couldn't fight because you might become a traitor once more. Thinking about not becoming a traitor once more would make you blind to everything else..including a Surprise attack on the 4.

Alot of your questions based on observations are alot of questions I have been asking myself!

In answer to your question on whether or not Whitacker knew Pierce was Nasedo or not! I think she suspected something was wrong with Pierce in the beginning and eventually it became apparant. How I know this is because I visited at "silverhandprint.com and they have a copy of Whitacker's journel entries.
She states in her journal something like "I couldn't believe it but the shapeshifter has been under my nose this whole time." It goes on to explain how she was going to meet with him and take care of the situation. She acknowledged something to the affect that The shapeshifter was a bit more powerful but she eventually succeeded in overtaking and killing him!

I too am strongly beginning to believe that Tess is actually Vilandra and Isabel is Ava. I thought for a sister who participated in such evil deeds against her brother and family, showed a bit too much feelings of remorse! Besides, I know the aliens are reincarnated and everything but Isabel's personality has not displayed traits of deceitfulness and betrayal! I doubt her personality would have done a complete 180 degree turn in this life! Now Tess on the otherhand, she appears to have all the traits Vilandra would have maintained in her previous life! She has betrayed, is deceitful, will kill to get what she wants, and is untrustworthy to say the least!

If this is not the case, the only other scenerio that would really make some sense is that the bride Ava, (Tess) not the sister Vilandra (Isabel), is the one who betrayed the family in the past life!!!!!

That's it for now! I'll be back later some time!

PEACE EVERYONE!!!!!!!

Other things besides Whitacker's journal entries were school newspaper articles on Alex's trip to Sweden, written displays (like survey diary sheets filled out by each female Liz, Tess, Maria, and Isabel) describing their prom experience, and a whole bunch of files that the SPECIAL UNIT was keeping (you can actually go into them and read what they say) Even though the WB created the site (and most of us are prettey pissed at them right now!) it showed some pretty cool stuff!!!

PEACE FOR NOW!!!!

Alot of your questions based on observations are alot of questions I have been asking myself!

In answer to your question on whether or not Whitacker knew Pierce was Nasedo or not! I think she suspected something was wrong with Pierce in the beginning and eventually it became apparant. How I know this is because I visited at "silverhandprint.com and they have a copy of Whitacker's journel entries.
She states in her journal something like "I couldn't believe it but the shapeshifter has been under my nose this whole time." It goes on to explain how she was going to meet with him and take care of the situation. She acknowledged something to the affect that The shapeshifter was a bit more powerful but she eventually succeeded in overtaking and killing him!

I too am strongly beginning to believe that Tess is actually Vilandra and Isabel is Ava. I thought for a sister who participated in such evil deeds against her brother and family, showed a bit too much feelings of remorse! Besides, I know the aliens are reincarnated and everything but Isabel's personality has not displayed traits of deceitfulness and betrayal! I doubt her personality would have done a complete 180 degree turn in this life! Now Tess on the otherhand, she appears to have all the traits Vilandra would have maintained in her previous life! She has betrayed, is deceitful, will kill to get what she wants, and is untrustworthy to say the least!

If this is not the case, the only other scenerio that would really make some sense is that the bride Ava, (Tess) not the sister Vilandra (Isabel), is the one who betrayed the family in the past life!!!!!

That's it for now! I'll be back later some time!

PEACE EVERYONE!!!!!!!

Just when I thought I had an original idea in my head, I find it posted somewhere!
I've been discussing this idea with my sister who thinks it may be too way out there. But, my argument is that, aside from Nicholas, the only other person who tells Isabel that she's Vilondra is her dupe. (or am I wrong on this?) And, we certainly can't trust her.

I'd like to think that Eva is the original podster in New Mexico; that Nacedo switched them somehow; and that, since she's lived w/the dupes, she'll be able to bring light on the whole Vilondra thing. Except...if Eva is the original podster, would her memory be as bad as Max, Izzy & Michael's?

Also, have you all discussed yet whether the human/alien combination for the New York set differs from the New Mexico set? I mean, dothe four that hatched in New Mexico have more human in them?..which would account for their faulty memories and for their "goodness?" And, if so, would that mean that all the aliens are inherently "not nice"? I don't know how to put it without sounding so judgemental.

That is to funny. But I don't think Tess is the sister. However, it would make for a great twist in the plot line.

Facts stated on the show (could be untrue):

1.) Vilandra/Isabelle betrayed her race + family while on Antar.

Idea:

- Is it possible that that Tess was in fact the sister, which would make her Vilandra from the past, and Max's sister? And Isabelle is really the intended bride?

- Or in the past life on Antar, was it really the bride (Tess) who betrayed the family and not the sister (Vilandra/Isabelle)?

Well, who knows. It's just a thought, right?

<~~Someone is out of place here. Oh yeah, it's Tess.

Those same chairs have been shown a lot recently.

----------------
* This pamphlet is one of the Objects that the Valentines (Valenti Appreciation Society) hold “in equal parts awe and irreverence” according to their Code. (Worth checking out, if you haven't seen it. Note that by mid-season 1, Ms. Topolsky still being at the school, the Valentines already expected that the sheriff would become a protector.)

Welcome to all the new posters here--loving all the new ideas.

NEMO--thanks for the symbolism posts---in regards to PAWNS--in 285 South when the Sheriff comes in and talks to Kyle in his room--the word PAWNS is clearly visible on the wall--a tie in to season1 to season2--well isn't that good news perhaps someday it will all make sense LOL!!!! Also in Heatwave when Isabel goes to dreamwalk Alex we see Alex in his bed--and a CHESS BOARD clearly visible in front of him--did you notice this?

And Nemo been anxiously awaiting your new speculations--have you been think about it LOL?????

Ok, this is going to be kind of insane without elaboration... but I was just wondering if anyone out there ever wondered if Max might not be Zan (neither was Max's dupe)... but Max might possibly be Zan and Ava's son?

Obviously, in this theory (unless Katims plans on taking Roswell the route of Grecian Tragedy... let's hope not!!)... the "Max"/Tess sex in the Observatory would have HAD to have been not everything it appeared to be. Myself, Dayneen and WR (a for y'all if you're lurking!)... all have ideas, one in particular, which could support this theory quite plausibly (even if it's not airtight sci-fi... although when has Roswell EVER been "airtight"?). Mostly that it was Maxedo (yes I believe Nasedo faked his death, WR, Dayneen, chime in if you're out there ) Tess was having sex with in the Observatory, and not actually Max. Of course, Tess doesn't know that. Maxedo later plants naked Max in the Observatory and warps the sex into his mind. It's all set up to make it look like Max got Tess preggers... when in fact, it was Maxedo. This baby, since it's a hybrid/alien baby (incompatible with Tess's hybrid body)... will not survive full term (it has about a month, give or take, before it dies?). Tess will miscarry the baby on Antar (and Tess might die in the process).

Combine this, with my belief that Max might be Zan/Ava's son... I believe Maxedo (aka Nasedo) might be Zan. Zan, who did not die on Antar... but either faked his death (as he did as Nasedo on Earth) or he escaped before Kivar could kill him. I believe he smuggled himself onto the Hybrid ship possibly in a new form (possibly a new husk, if "Antarians" needed them too to survive Earth, and it wouldn't surprise me if they did).

To do all of this, Zan would obviously be pretty unscrupulous and seemingly comparable to the rest of the Antarians/Skins... completely power-hungry (if he's willing to kill his own son to secure/regain his throne). Zan (as Nasedo) brainwashing/mindwarping Tess (aka Ava, his wife, his Queen) to fall in love with her own son (possibly to get revenge on her... in Whitaker's diary it eludes that "the Queen" had a direct role in why the Royals were recreated as Hybrids... The Queen = Ava... Ava was trying to protect her son, Max by recreating him as a hybrid with herself and sending them all to Earth?). However, Zan's plan changed, imo, after he found out what was in the Destiny Book (a Destiny Book Ava purposefully made indecipherable to aliens so Zan would never discover what she was doing and find Max)... Zan possibly discovering that the hybrids were NEVER designed to "procreate" with each other (particularly not Tess and Max... since they're mother and son).

And now I've run out of time! UGH!! I have more to add to this, but so far... what do y'all think? Am I totally crazy? This would spin an interesting irony on Max's line at the very end of DEPARTURE... honorable (besides being GROSSLY mindwarped to become the contrary) Max, who believes he's Zan, says "I have to save my son." When in truth, the writers were telling us... Max has to save HIMSELF. He's the son. He's the heir. Keep himself alive from not only Kivar, but his own alien father.

Melodious

Back home from my appointment

Now I know a couple of you are probably going to be rolling your eyes at me, but have any of you noticed that if you take the "do" out of "Nasedo". NASE.... play with those letters a bit and you get SEAN.

Of course, this gets REALLY messed up if you include the theory I posted above. IF Sean IS Nasedo ... and Nasedo is Zan (Max's father, acc. to above spec). Sean is Max's father who is trying to separate Liz from Max (his son) because he KNOWS she's his destiny - and with her Max will be strong enough to be King one day (Liz is Max's balance)? OR, Liz is VERY important to Max's (the new King's) destiny... Zan knows it (via the DB translation which he mindwarped Alex to translate), and he wants this destiny (Liz) for himself?

This could explain why Liz was seemingly immediately attracted to Sean when she first sees him walk into the Crashdown? Sean is Zan, Max's alien father... hence, Sean is close enough to Max, that Liz "recognizes" a bit of Max in Sean? This is why she's so interested/attracted to Sean... he reminds her of Max.

Edited to add... if you play with the letters in Sean (take out the "e")... San... Zan.

Then of course there's Sean's full name, Sean Deluca. Sean Deluca. SEAND... play with those letters you get NASED... Nasedo.

And in Nasedo's name... drop the last three letters ("edo"). NAS... SAN... ZAN.

I have WAY too much time on my hands I think.

Melodious

All's I have to say is that "Roswell" really needs to be pushed back up a notch. I would love to see a lot of the science fiction(SF) stuff on the show, but in the mean time it seems to me, that the writer's are killing off the relationship of Max and Liz. They have so many angle's to go with SF. With bringing Kivar into the picture, and maybe going to the home planet. But the relationship of Max and Liz is beign killed of little by little. And it is really annoying me. If Tess's pregnancy is in fact real, then the relationship of Max/Liz is ruined. And I don't care what anyone says, to me it is ruined, tainted, detroyed, whatever you can think of. Every since they broke the two up, the show has gone down hill. I mean for a while the Tess/Max stuff threw good little twist into the relationship for a while. But let's get real. The writer's have played this whole Tess/Max angle out way to far and long. And I am just not up o seeing a season devoted to finded baby (no offense to the child). To me this show is turning into a soap-opera. No! No! No!

I agree that if the baby is real then Max and Liz are ruined for me too. I can still enjoy the show, but not withthe same enthusiasm as before...

However, I like Sean, and tend to want to come to his defense. Yes, he was in Juvie, that is a bit different than regular prison. Kids get sent to juvie for a wide variety of reasons. You caneven be sent to halfway houses instead of prison. The system often tries to intervene early with youth. And it often works. I used to work at the Maricopa County Juvenile System in Arizona. A lot of those kids grew up tp be fine young men. (I worked in the boys division)... So, I guess I don't view it all the same way you all do.

Okay, okay, off my defend Sean kick. Sometimes I drive even myself crazy.

Just a comment on the Tess is really Vilondra thing. With all the discussion sometime ago about the Galdiator references, in the movie, the brother "loved" his sister a bit too much. It coudl fit right in! Sorry, in light of the final few eppies of Roswell, all I can do is laugh and see humor in all. It keeps me happier here in Denial...

~Sheri

edited to add:
Originally posted by Scifi Mom:
Just a comment on the Tess is really Vilondra thing. With all the discussion sometime ago about the Galdiator references, in the movie, the brother "loved" his sister a bit too much. It coudl fit right in! Sorry, in light of the final few eppies of Roswell, all I can do is laugh and see humor in all. It keeps me happier here in Denial...
Well, I've been thinking that Max vs. Isabel in the last few episodes gives a very good picture of how "Vilondra" could have been said to betray her brother, while actually not. Max's imperious attitude toward Isabel shows just how bad a King he could have been, and Isabel's sticking up for herself could have been seen as "betrayal" by Max's partisans (like Tess).

I agree that we need more sci-fi (not hocus-pocus), and more romance (not couples-based fighting). Sadly, I think that the Max/Liz romance is toast. How could either one, trust the other? Not to mention...

BTW, the %#@*&^ jelly fish would have worked well in a book.

About the Max/Liz relationship. I suppose it could be salvadged, not easily--I mean a Maharachi band wouldn't do it, but maybe if Max did an Elvis impersonation? just kidding. But I think it's a shame they broke them up so much in the first place. With Kvar coming on the scene, the normal day-to-day couple spats would be enough conflict in the Max/Liz quarter without having to deal with a step-alien.
And I think if they brought him back in a pod maybe he might be okay on Earth as long as he didn't hatch for 6 years.

And back to the coat, superpoohb, I was thinking that it was so much a matter of why Tess chose the coat as why the writers chose it--it seems to leave open the possibility that Valenti would find some sort of evidence on his coat later that would imply the baby couldn't have been real. But I doubt that now since we were left with the "Save my son" line.

And SciFiMom, so, have you had a chance to rewatch with close attention to Sean's lines? His personna is so likeable, but I think they might be planning on Liz going for him and Max having to rescue her when Sean turns bad. Things like, "haven't lost the touch" when he's trying to get them out of the UFO center in OTM. And when Liz asks for help to break into the school, he says he used a tool fashioned from a bike spoke to break into the bowling alley--which implies that he's still into B&E.

So, does anyone have a comment on Liz's psychological state post-Departure?

I too agree with you and your sister that it is ironic that the only sources Isabel has had access for retrieving her past life identity is through the pod-squads' enemies.
Your right about Nicholas, the dupe Lonnie, but don't forget CongressWoman Whitaker was the first to introduce Isabel to this identity! Why in the world would everyone just assume that the skins (their enemies) would tell them any truth? I know the destiny book displayed pictures, but they were not able to read the language that went along with them! Tess had Alex translate the book! She could be lying about the translation. She could have even manipulated its meaning! Otherwise, why all the secrecy in decoding the book without the knowledge of Max, Isabel, or Michael!

However, the purpose of the dupes still baffles me! I don't think the N.Yer's are less human than the Royal 4 from New Mexico! So I don't think the Royal 4 are more good as a result of being more human! I think just like in the human race, there is good and bad in the alien races! The dupes are just appear more evil in nature to me! Plus, I don't think that the show did a very good job in explaining the biology aspect of the aliens! I am confused because they have brought some terms that derive more from spirituality than science! Like reincarnation/past lives!!!!!!!!! Their alien mother from Season 1 Finale "DESTINY" mentioned the term reincarnated. She said that they had lived before and perished. That they had been reincarnated! Now in spiritual terms, this means you live once again after you have died and that is why you refer to yourself as having a past life!
But at the same time there is only one you! How can there be two of you walking around at the same time after you have been reincarnated, one in New Mexico and one of u in New York, this makes no sense to me! Now from the biological aspect, because of the Laurie Dupree story about her grandfather, I don't think the Human/Alien DNA is created in the natural order in having one alien parent and one human parent. Michael is a clone for Laurie's grandfather! Now cloning is not the same thing as natural reproduction? My question is how are they explaining this to us! Cloning does not require the usual egg+sperm= new baby. In techinical terms cloning is done through taking a females egg and removing the genetic material she would normally contribute during natural reproduction. They remove a DNA SAMPLE from another person and fill the "empty" egg with this new genetic material! This is suppose to create an exact duplicate of the person the DNA sample was taken from! All these varying concepts are confusing me were they want to go with explaining this. Now go back to the spirituality concept for a minute of reincarnation. If all living things have a soul and your living in another life, how can the soul be divided into two bodies, the dupes and the Royal 4? You are either living in one body or the other, not both! Then it appears they shift back to the biology aspect by making it appear they are simply reincarted through the use of the alien DNA mixed into the human DNA? Huh?????????????
I don't know about the rest of you, but is anyone else lost on how all this information is suppose to be combined for some understanding to the audience? And if they are going with this HUMAN DNA/ALIEN DNA mixture to explain how they are reincarnated how do they have a past life which is a term from spirituality! To me, this would mean they are not the Royal 4 themselves but only descendents of them through DNa with their own Alien soul! So what is going on here?

This is what I understood it to mean! I thought they were reincarnated into their alien bodies first and then their alien body essence was placed into their cloned human body! The human body serves as a permanent sheild from the earth's atmosphere. This would also explain why Tess' baby would be endanger of dying! Because, Max and Tess' reproductive systems are completey alien! There baby does not have a protective human body to cover its alien body! So the term HYBRID TO ME (HALF HUMAN/HALF ALIEN) meant an alien body being covered by a human body!
I don't think they have an alien and human parent who contributed to a Half/Half DNA!
Therefore there reproductive systems to not contain human DNa in it! Therefore the Dupes are probably created from the same human cloning but not the same alien essence!

Just I theory of mine but who knows!!! I'm probably just as confused as the rest of you!!!

Bye for now

I too agree with you and your sister that it is ironic that the only sources Isabel has had access for retrieving her past life identity is through the pod-squads' enemies.
Your right about Nicholas, the dupe Lonnie, but don't forget CongressWoman Whitaker was the first to introduce Isabel to this identity! Why in the world would everyone just assume that the skins (their enemies) would tell them any truth? I know the destiny book displayed pictures, but they were not able to read the language that went along with them! Tess had Alex translate the book! She could be lying about the translation. She could have even manipulated its meaning! Otherwise, why all the secrecy in decoding the book without the knowledge of Max, Isabel, or Michael!

However, the purpose of the dupes still baffles me! I don't think the N.Yer's are less human than the Royal 4 from New Mexico! So I don't think the Royal 4 are more good as a result of being more human! I think just like in the human race, there is good and bad in the alien races! The dupes are just appear more evil in nature to me! Plus, I don't think that the show did a very good job in explaining the biology aspect of the aliens! I am confused because they have brought some terms that derive more from spirituality than science! Like reincarnation/past lives!!!!!!!!! Their alien mother from Season 1 Finale "DESTINY" mentioned the term reincarnated. She said that they had lived before and perished. That they had been reincarnated! Now in spiritual terms, this means you live once again after you have died and that is why you refer to yourself as having a past life!
But at the same time there is only one you! How can there be two of you walking around at the same time after you have been reincarnated, one in New Mexico and one of u in New York, this makes no sense to me! Now from the biological aspect, because of the Laurie Dupree story about her grandfather, I don't think the Human/Alien DNA is created in the natural order in having one alien parent and one human parent. Michael is a clone for Laurie's grandfather! Now cloning is not the same thing as natural reproduction? My question is how are they explaining this to us! Cloning does not require the usual egg+sperm= new baby. In techinical terms cloning is done through taking a females egg and removing the genetic material she would normally contribute during natural reproduction. They remove a DNA SAMPLE from another person and fill the "empty" egg with this new genetic material! This is suppose to create an exact duplicate of the person the DNA sample was taken from! All these varying concepts are confusing me were they want to go with explaining this. Now go back to the spirituality concept for a minute of reincarnation. If all living things have a soul and your living in another life, how can the soul be divided into two bodies, the dupes and the Royal 4? You are either living in one body or the other, not both! Then it appears they shift back to the biology aspect by making it appear they are simply reincarted through the use of the alien DNA mixed into the human DNA? Huh?????????????
I don't know about the rest of you, but is anyone else lost on how all this information is suppose to be combined for some understanding to the audience? And if they are going with this HUMAN DNA/ALIEN DNA mixture to explain how they are reincarnated how do they have a past life which is a term from spirituality! To me, this would mean they are not the Royal 4 themselves but only descendents of them through DNa with their own Alien soul! So what is going on here?

This is what I understood it to mean! I thought they were reincarnated into their alien bodies first and then their alien body essence was placed into their cloned human body! The human body serves as a permanent sheild from the earth's atmosphere. This would also explain why Tess' baby would be endanger of dying! Because, Max and Tess' reproductive systems are completey alien! There baby does not have a protective human body to cover its alien body! So the term HYBRID TO ME (HALF HUMAN/HALF ALIEN) meant an alien body being covered by a human body!
I don't think they have an alien and human parent who contributed to a Half/Half DNA!
Therefore there reproductive systems to not contain human DNa in it! Therefore the Dupes are probably created from the same human cloning but not the same alien essence!

Just I theory of mine but who knows!!! I'm probably just as confused as the rest of you!!!

Bye for now

Well about your first paragragh...a while back i posted an idea just like that...i said that i thought the destiny book could be all fake because they didn't even know it existed until tess came...she could have made the whole thing up?? but then..what she said that the book said is also like what Iz and Max's mom said in destiny from the holograph thing...could that have been tess's MWing too??? she said she could make people see things which weren't really there....but then again liz saw that and she was never *tapping*....could it have been because she has a special connection with max that she wasn't *tapping* after having been MWed...WHO KNOWS????.... confusing, confusing, confusing...what has Jason Katims done to us..??...gosh they should start airing S3 RIGHT NOW!!!! well i don't know what to say about your cloning/dupes stuff...kind of confused by that too..but i don't know....its sounds like it could work
WELL....LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~ please post back to me...i would love to see what ideas u have about what i wrote.... C-YA

That's why she looked so closed off in those close up shots

Who's going to replace BOB next season, he had the most M/L action all season

------------
Dreamer
Candygirl

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Dreamer
Candygirl

No problem: you've probably been paying too mutch attention to others who didn't understand either. Here's the thing:
The Royal Four were killed in a revolution. Mom wanted them alive again, to rescue her, etc. So the Good Aliens found four humans of the right genetic background, and took DNA samples from each. These four samples had a little alien DNA added by the granarium somehow. Then, the resulting four synthetic hybrid DNAs were incubated in the pods: each bunch of pods got one sample each of the four synthetic hybrids.

Each of the Royal four also had an "essence". Think of it as a soul. These were somehow collected, before or after the Royal Four died. They were copied, edited perhaps, and programmed into the growing hybrids; each hybrid receiving a copy of its proper "essence". The "bunch" that would grow up in New York retained their memories (so it seems). The essences that were programmed into the New Mexico "bunch" seem to have had their memories edited out, or at least blocked. Why two sets? They couldn't tell whether it would be better for the R4 to have their memories or not, so they made one set of each. That way, they didn't have all the eggs in one basket.

I think that the NY4 were supposed to work out their original (mental) problems, in hopes of going home and resuming their rule. The NM4 were created without their memories, in hopes that, as they matured, they would be wiser than their original selves, and less likely to make the same mistakes. Note that, in the NY4 group, "Vilandra" has once again betrayed an arrogant and dictatorial "Zan". The NM4 have avoided this... so far.

M/L are destiny, Tess was just another evil witch

I'm not sure how they are going to explain it, maybe they will just say that Tess borrowed it and went off the cliff too. That would help them explain where she went. Although non of her supposed friends would be sad about her death.

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Dreamer
Candygirl

ACTUALLY-there are only about 100 other things i want..but no time for those!!!

of course better do some serious Apologizing to before the happens!!!

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

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Dreamer
Candygirl

That would work!!!!! and your right..no one would care!!!!! LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

okay enough.. just a bit tired!!!!

Thanks for clearing up the biology aspect for me so it made some more sense! I now understand how their Hybrid bodies were probably created!

However, the issue with the dupes still confuses me regarding this explanation on the spirituality concept! I understand the explanation of the hybrid bodies of both the DUPES and the ROYAL 4! When the mention of a soul/essence is brought into the picture, the writers are bringing up spirituality so that explains how they are the same 4 from their past lives! But your soul/essence is soley you and it is not of a physical nature so how can this same 4 being existing at the same time in two different sets of bodies? You can not take a soul or an essence and divide it in two halves and then say this is me and that is me too! It would be like us humans having our soul in two different bodies right now while we are chatting on this board! That just is not possible! How are the writers explaining this!

If we're to believe this "Nasedo deal" was legitimate, it would have roughly happened around 1958, right? Tess said Nasedo made the deal 40 years ago.

40 yrs ago is around the same time Whitaker made that cryptic "How...?" entry, January 8, 1958.

We discover later (January 12, 1963 entry) it was seemingly because Nicholas killed a bunch of her friends (seemingly his "own" kind) right in front of her, but spared her.

1957, Whitaker writes that they sent half their troops out to find the "Royal Four", with 20% casualties. Why did 20% of the troops die? Nasedo?

Did Whitaker know about the Dupes? It doesn't seem like she did (saying how they were looking for the Royals for a considerable amount of time and basically coming up with squat... not a single Royal, whether they be prototypes or duplicates). So is Nicholas the only one that knew about them? If that was indeed Nicholas we saw in MITC (and something tells me it *wasn't* - I still feel Niko died in WIPE OUT)?

Due to what we know postDEPARTURE... could Whitaker's above entries be significant at all in concerns to contact with Nasedo and the "deal" made?

Melodious

Thanks for clearing up the biology aspect for me so it made some more sense! I now understand how their Hybrid bodies were probably created!

However, the issue with the dupes still confuses me regarding this explanation on the spirituality concept! I understand the explanation of the hybrid bodies of both the DUPES and the ROYAL 4! When the mention of a soul/essence is brought into the picture, the writers are bringing up spirituality so that explains how they are the same 4 from their past lives! But your soul/essence is soley you and it is not of a physical nature so how can this same 4 being existing at the same time in two different sets of bodies? You can not take a soul or an essence and divide it in two halves and then say this is me and that is me too! It would be like us humans having our soul in two different bodies right now while we are chatting on this board! That just is not possible! How are the writers explaining this!

Maybe the souls/essences were split? This would explain how the NY4 and Ros4 were so different. If, of course, you consider only the "nature" side of the "nature vs. nurture" argument. Maybe one of the "protectors" found out that the essences were split good/bad and moved the "bad" ones far from the granilth and threw them somewhere where he figured they wouldn't survive--the sewers.

Just some ideas to throw into the mix.

Let's just say for discussions sake that the dupes didn't hatch until they were like 8 or 9. Well Max fell in love with Liz when he saw her in third. So if Zan hatched after Max saw Liz then that would explain why Xan was always waiting for someone. He could feel Max's love for Liz and since they are 'essentialy' the same person, he loved her too. He was waiting for Liz, because Max loved her.

Nice to talk to you guys again.

Mel Interesting Oedipal spec, but prob. too complicated for TV, as someone else said Haven't finished with your e-mail yet

GraceKel You're right, the Whirlwind Galaxy is blue & yellow in Maria's and Brody's flashes, but red & purple in Liz's from SH (red & purple in the diagram in the science classroom, too). They are all the same shape, though. What that means, I haven't the slightest idea!
~Tas

does this mean that all the aleins are like this...if they are im surprised they haven' invaded earth

Anyway...

But why would they need to invade Earth?
That's one thing I never got about the EOTW scenario. I can't believe the aliens wasted that much energy just to get back the granilith and kill the pod squad.

The podsquad isn't too much of a danger w/o the granilith. They can't even get home.
And the supposed heir to the throne is "safely" back on Antar.

Is there something else humans have that the aliens want?

OR... the friends might have been a bunch of dirty Michael Worshippers (who were attempting to recruit CWW)... hence Nicholas offed them but spared CWW, because he knew she hadn't been converted yet (and he needed all the *troops* he could spare)? Ida intervened for CWW because Ida knew CW hadn't been "turned" - CW was still loyal. CW, however, has no idea of the existance of these traitors (they were all killed before they could reveal their mission to her).

These possible Michael Worshippers would als seem to be very suave in their method of "recruitment" ... befriending other Skins... getting VERY close to them... and then dropping the bomb ("We're Michael Worshipping Skins, we have a plan... if you join us and abandon Copper Summit and Nicholas' lost mission... we assure you success and a way home..." blah blah).

Could Nasedo have known about these Michael Worshippers, he stool-pigeoned them to Nicholas... hence Nicholas blew the lot of them away? This could be how Nasedo got Nicholas to trust him (otherwise, Niko would have been inclined to blow Nas away too)? Nasedo gave him "inside" information about possible traitors in Niko's camp (Nas would have known this because he was arguably close to the Royals in the past lifetime? He knew the existance of the secret faction of Skins that wanted one of the Royals to rule, not Kivar?)... which was confirmed by a little digging by Nicholas (he discovered secret meetings amongst MWSkins? Compromising evidence?). Hence giving Niko enough reason to kill a group of his own people?

Later on in the Diary (2000 entries), CWW comments on the very end of at least two different entries Nicholas's CONCERN over "deserters". Deserters = Michael Worshipping Skins Nicholas realized he didn't 'off' in 1958? Nicholas didn't realize how many there really were (hence he was "nervous", as CWW stated)? Nicholas possibly fearing their #s could be much greater than he speculated and they could possibly join up with the hybrids (mobilize against the Skins)? Not only making his mission even MORE difficult... but then the hybrids (who he also might have feared were still as "powerful" as they once were)... but also continuing to fail Kivar?

Something else I noticed in the Diary, in the second entry I believe (1950)... CWW states that Nicholas calls their bodies "Skins". This gives me the impression that CWW (at least) didn't have a name for them until Nicholas GAVE them one. That they were certainly not always called "Skins" (Skins being the names of their Earth bodies, bodies they wouldn't have needed on Antar, arguably - bodies that were new and the method was never used before?)... but were something new (CWW didn't know about, CWW - seemingly a soldier in her alien life). Does this name possibly confirm that Nasedo DID have contact with the "Skins" ... due to him KNOWING they were even calling themselves "Skins" (a name they wouldn't have used in the alien world)? Shouldn't Nasedo have known them by some kind of goofy alien-faction name similar to Vilondra... Gandarium... Antar? No, he calls them "Skins" when he's "dying" on Max's floor. Or is this just another CHAD (or Silverhandprint simply isn't cannon and I should ignore the info in it completely - a lot of work for some poor slobs for it to mean nothing)?

Melodious

You're right about Nacedo's reference to Skins. I thought that seemed fishy from the beginning. He must have had previous contact with them, whether as allies or enemies, in order to know this.

Why don't the podsters/scooby gang ever get suspicious about such CHADs?

Well, I might say the humans' planet itself. Due to all the references to a red giant (a star in it's last stages of life... the Twilonian universe / planets could on their very last legs?). However, if Twilo IS dying... why are the Skins so anxious to get back to it? Nostalgia? They want to die on their home world and not some blue/green insignificant ball in the universe? They simply don't know how bad the situation is on Antar (how could they NOT know? It's only an enormous dying star in their home sky)? Although... what good would the Granilith be to Kivar if all it is is a one-way transport? Why does he want it so badly? Why do the other alien factions want it so badly? If Twilo is dying... could the Granilith be powerful enough to not only deliver four royals TO Antar... but perhaps deliver entire alien civilization(s) FROM it? Or at least a few higher ranking officials? In EOTW, however, aliens seemed to have invaded Earth ANYWAY without the Granilith? My brain hurts.

Arguably speaking... IF the Granilith IS more powerful than just some "one way" transport... are we to expect that "aliens among us" theme is going to take on entirely DIFFERENT proportions next season? Aliens crawling everywhere in disguise? Due to Kivar finally (at least) getting his hands on the Granilith... Kiv and a few (or a legion) of his best, most loyal soldiers/servants... hop into it and deliver themselves to Earth. ... BUT... for what purposes? I DO have a distinct feeling we WILL be seeing Kivar next season (after his name was brought up so much in S2) - also, the podsters are in need of an archnemesis, are they not (especially since Niko has fallen into some CHAD abyss)? If Kiv already has the heir *and* the Granilith... WHY would he come to Earth? What could be so important on Earth that would garner the King himself to come down (retrieve whatever it is himself)?

I'd LIKE to think it's Liz... and my Liz Myth self would be going into convulsions in S3 if she is Kiv's goal... but I'm NOT getting my hopes up.

Melodious

In the promo, it launched very straight.

In the end of Departure, it almost seems to wiggle around as if it was slightly out of control.

These screencaps from crashdown.com really don't show the "wiggling," but you can see a difference in the trajectory.

Any theories on this?

I agree. This is exactly what I'm driving at, QueenAmidala01! I believe that every living thing has its own soul! A soul is of a spiritual nature/not a physical one! The Dupes would have to have their own soul/essence right? The same soul can not be living in the Dupes and The ROYAL 4 at the same time on earth! They only thing they have in common is there DNA! It is like having an identical twin, the two are not the same person! So the dupes would have to be different aliens derived from the same mixture of human/alien DNA. Otherwise, the past life storyline makes no sense. You can only exist in one life at a time. I know I surely don't feel myself walking around right now inside of another body somewhere!

Heather

I found another number thingy...

In surprise, the plant that Isabel goes to to save Tess and kill Whitaker... the sign on the fence says Plant #2.

Just deals with the number theme

I notice alot of discussion about Max, Tess, and Mindwarping! As a dreamer fan, I hope the writers write this into Season 3.

Personally, I doubt they are going to! I was just curious that if in the chance I am right, is anyone else going to become bored with Roswell or stop watching? The relationship of Max/Liz will have lost its appeal forever. I know for me, it won't matter if they are together or not! It's not the same anymore.

Anyway, just curious as to how the rest of you will handle it? If you continue to watch, will you become comfortable watching for the purpose of a different couple?

Bye for now!

Heather

Well... first murder we knew he committed, I'd think. He could have killed SEVERAL other people before that, no? Perhaps a few of those soldiers collecting debris at the crash site, 1947. Maybe some more during his "escape" from Eagle Rock? Some of those bodies he could have better concealed and/or buried like the shapeshifter in ID (who was probably also Nasedo unfortunately, even though I love the two shapeshifter theories) did to Hank.

IMO, the most likely scenario... Atherton caught wind from some of his *other* contacts that a shapeshifting alien had murdered all of these people. Atherton confronts Nasedo about it... bu bye Atherton. He immediately moved from liability to a threat, so Nasedo eliminated him?

quote:Maybe he got wind of something about the deal and that's why Nasedo killed him. Just to throw the thought out there!

Anyone have any specs why Atherton had the pendant? Did he get it from Nasedo or did Atherton acquire it from some other government contact (and Nasedo just let him keep it?)? A pendant with a symbol on it that not only all the podsters recognized (making it seemingly very important), but a symbol also seen above (in connection with) the Granilith. A symbol that's seemingly most often associated to Liz and/or Liz/Max.

quote:Mel - Interesting Oedipal spec, but prob. too complicated for TV, as someone else said

Well, you and shapeshifter are probably right. I'm stuck on this spec however, it's going to be awhile before I start working out of this mindset

quote:Haven't finished with your e-mail yet

Take your time chica

Melodious

The major things that I want to see explained in Season 3 are:

1.) Is Tess's pregnancy real? (Most likely it is, but in my opinion that sucks)

2.) When are we ever going to see Kivar?

3.) Where is the second shape-shifter that we saw in Summer of 47'?

4.) What else does the Destiny Book contain? (There was an awful lot of translation from that book to just be how the Granolith works)

5.) More things revealed about the pod-squads past lives.

<~~Someone is out of place here. Oh yeah, it's Tess.

Heidi

Liz and Max really need to make-up seriously because it's Liz's fault too...Max maybe broke her heart but at the same time, Sean nor Max does not know why Liz pushed Max away, and that makes and will make a difference....

I think in my book, Liz has to realized that she pushed Max away, new info about the Granolith and when she changed the timeline, she also changed events...like meeting Sean, Alex's death, Isabel going to school early, Maria and Mike having sex this early...alot of things have happen as a result....

What Liz also have to see that for her to continously be angry at Max for everything that he did, would be worng because she have to tell Max what really happened and why she did what she did....

Personally, the "Sean" factor is a distraction, period. Sean doesn't know about hte aliens, he probaly think that Brody/Larek just suffered a "crazy" and that's why he was rambling off like that...so to keep his mouth shut, Liz made the date....

The whole Liz Sean thing won't work out, either in the short-term or the long run...because Liz or anybody may not tell Sean about the alien situation and not only that but we all know that Liz and Max will probably get closer, as friends, especially when they owrk out their problems...

With the additon of Melinda, I really think we are going to see some more Max and Liz, working togehter, more like before Heatwave-Max/Liz...remember, Liz was still technically with Kyle when she was helping and protecting Max in the first three eppys...

I'm not really worried about Sean, his character can go numerous ways...but I really think that his character is going to turn out like the male version of Tess...something is going to be up, and I think the way that Max will be redeemed permanetely is when Max saves her,again...maybe from Sean or something that he has done...he may just betray the group and the aliens...

I think with Melinda, we will see a lot more of Liz and Max re-developing their friendship and working together, and that's what Liz and Max need right now anyway, because the sow still is about them and right now Liz and Max needs to find out that Liz is the balance and his center, his wife to be, his only lover, true confident, and best friend.....I think some of the theories and clues we as Liz Myths see will manifest...certain important people like River and Ava will come back and give some key important information that holds importance only for LIz and Max...one thing about this whole scenerio is that Liz and Max always heard things not in their favor about them...he has a past wife and this and that...but nobody ever told him or her that,"What you two have is special, hold on to it" or something like Larek saying, "I knew Max in the past, and I have never seen him love anybody the way he loves you" If Liz and Max heard things like that, then I think they would had both fought harder for and toward each other, and they would had follow their hearts, instead of being led away by the enemy....

Nick said it best when he told Max it was lucky for him that he still continued to trust the wrong people and then showed the camera on Tess....

Max and Liz will work things out, Max needs to realize his life now and position as leader is like playing Solataire..you have to look at every card stack very carefully eah time or you can keep missing chances to stack up your cards and lose points...

Liz will probably learn that lesson too, that she can't just run off and do everything on her on now, now more important, they all have to stick together...

This is not to bash Liz...it's just that point out that Liz made some mistakes too...I say this because I don't won't the writers to make Max so weak from groveling every week that he is not even worthy of Liz's forgiveness and freindship, because he is...

And contray to what most people may tink...Liz will eventually take Max because it's in her nature to forgive him and be attracted to him and close to him and it's in his nature to love her....

At that point, Max felt like this is it...I going back home, there's nothing we can do, I lost Liz everyone has left me at my worst...Tess is always there(even though he or everybody else didn't know why at the time)and that the Destiny Book is saying all of this crap...it's re-inforcing it....

Now, let's remember, Max has also remember Tess...thru Larek's memory, so he thinks now, the marriage is real...add to that him and Liz are not with each other, and on the outs about Alex's death....

I mean, he thinks he remember some kind of feeling for Tess...so he might remember the love, hence that's why he said not like you....

Two things you have to remember, when they were just about to leave, or go to his death, the truth was revealed right at the final momnets...even in the Pod Chamber, Tess still didn't reveal the real reason till exactly one second before the Granolith took off...she still was keeping the whole plan from Max...making him think that she was so upset at Max for loving Liz...or that she cared for him, when in reality...she was working with a plan....

Sometimes your best enemy can give you waring about your worst enemy...Nick told Max in WipeOut that he was lucky that Max was trusting the wrong people...and then the camera angle looked at Tess.

Max said in MTD to Liz that he didn't know if he trusted her...that was the problem right there...he still didn't really trust her after that either, yes they became friends again, but Max and Liz didn't talk about their trust issues or past problems...so when it mattered most, he didn't listen to his heart or Liz...because those issues hadn't work out yet...

The same thing will happen with Liz in regards to Sean, or somebody elase, I think...Okay, yeah Liz and Max may become freinds again, but something will happen and Liz may not trust Max or heed some warnings that he may give her about Sean and then something bad happens...watch.

And when you say Liz trusting Max, do you all mean his decisons or what because Max ddin't cheat on Liz...do you mean with her heart that he won't break it again???

At that point, Max felt like this is it...I going back home, there's nothing we can do, I lost Liz everyone has left me at my worst...Tess is always there(even though he or everybody else didn't know why at the time)and that the Destiny Book is saying all of this crap...it's re-inforcing it....

Now, let's remember, Max has also remember Tess...thru Larek's memory, so he thinks now, the marriage is real...add to that him and Liz are not with each other, and on the outs about Alex's death....

I mean, he thinks he remember some kind of feeling for Tess...so he might remember the love, hence that's why he said not like you....

Two things you have to remember, when they were just about to leave, or go to his death, the truth was revealed right at the final momnets...even in the Pod Chamber, Tess still didn't reveal the real reason till exactly one second before the Granolith took off...she still was keeping the whole plan from Max...making him think that she was so upset at Max for loving Liz...or that she cared for him, when in reality...she was working with a plan....

Sometimes your best enemy can give you waring about your worst enemy...Nick told Max in WipeOut that he was lucky that Max was trusting the wrong people...and then the camera angle looked at Tess.

Max said in MTD to Liz that he didn't know if he trusted her...that was the problem right there...he still didn't really trust her after that either, yes they became friends again, but Max and Liz didn't talk about their trust issues or past problems...so when it mattered most, he didn't listen to his heart or Liz...because those issues hadn't work out yet...

The same thing will happen with Liz in regards to Sean, or somebody elase, I think...Okay, yeah Liz and Max may become freinds again, but something will happen and Liz may not trust Max or heed some warnings that he may give her about Sean and then something bad happens...watch.

And when you say Liz trusting Max, do you all mean his decisons or what because Max ddin't cheat on Liz...do you mean with her heart that he won't break it again???

I hadn't had much time to go back and read some prior postings, so I just did it now. I guess the debate on the aliens and their biology has been going on for awhile. You know what, I don't think the audience is ever going to get a clear explanation on how they have been reincarnated? Notice how they have said very little when referring to how they exist. Why? It is just too complictated to give one acceptable response to the whole audience! Many of us have different views on science and spirituality and what the terminology used in "Roswell" means!

However, I thank all of you for your insight in doing your best to break down the information supplied in the show. You all have done your best in trying to explain what you think the writers mean. While I understand other peoples' interpretations about the aliens, I personally I'm confused why some people keep referring to the ROYAL 4 as human. I think they have human tendancies a)because of the human DNA in their Hybrid created body, and b) because they have been exposed to and living in the human environment. I don't think they are human. They are aliens. Their essence/soul is completely alien. They do not have a human essence/soul. I think the hybrid body was created so they could survive on earth, because their alien essence body can not survive in the earth's atmosphere. I think the cloned human body is covering the alien body on earth (aka: like the skins, only the difference is the Royal 4 are reincarnated and they were recreated through more advanced technology than the skins had in creating their 'human' suits). Until it is disputed otherwise on the show, this would explain why Tess' baby is endanger of dying. Max and Tess' reproductive systems are alien not human in anyway. The baby needs a human body to cover its alien body to be able to survive on earth! The only thing really physically human about the Pod-squad to me, is the human body that was cloned for their alien essence body to put placed into. They are the reincarnated aliens of their past lives. That makes them an alien not a human. This all is soley based on the way I need to interpret it based on my understanding of what reincarnation, past lives, and cloning all mean. So this is how I will choose to believe how the aliens are existing on earth when I watch the show. The rest of you will have to do go on your own interpretations as well.

Oh, someone earlier on in this thread thought that the powers the aliens had is because they are human, and the powers come from the full use of the human brain. This is not what I interpreted from Season 1. In THE WHITE ROOM, when Nasedo talked to Michael, I thought he was explaining that the powers the aliens had are also of human ability if all the human mind was used. He said something like "I know more about humans then they will ever know about me!"
The powers the ROYAL 4 have are alien, I think Nasedo was explaining that humans have this ability too if they could use all of their brain power.

We saw how much more advanced the alien technology is compared to human technology when the granolith was activated in the end of DEPARTURE!

So in conclusion, to each his/her own interpretation and understanding!

PEACE EVERYONE! Heather

quote:Originally posted by Zero:
...Numbers keep cropping up that seem to fall into our 2, 3, 4, 5 groupings. Like the bus that Liz misses is 33_5, the bowling alley lane is 32, Max remembers 3 moons, Alex’s funeral and the concert is on 5/5 and the song at the end of Cry Your Name mentions the number 3! In Ask Not Kyle stands in front of classroom #305...I would love to know if any of these numbers were clues. I rewatched Morning After last night and noticed Kyle is in front of the same classroom #305 then.

Thanks for clearing up the biology aspect for me so it made some more sense! (...)

But your soul/essence is soley you and it is not of a physical nature so how can this same 4 being existing at the same time in two different sets of bodies? You can not take a soul or an essence and divide it in two halves and then say this is me and that is me too! It would be like us humans having our soul in two different bodies right now while we are chatting on this board! That just is not possible! How are the writers explaining this?
HA! The writers, I fear, could care less...

For me, I do it this way: Your essence, "soul" perhaps, is information. If you consider your brain as a computer, we are talking about the software and data inside. Since it is information, it can be copied.

So, the original R4's essences were copied, probably (?) while they were alive. The essences were downloaded into the brains of the 8 fetuses in the pods, with the NM4's essences' memories edited or blocked. Again, this is data; subject to manipulation.

Souls? Good question. "Mom" didn't say souls, she said "essences". It's possible that the original R4's souls went (wherever) when they died, and that the 8 hybrids each have new souls reflecting their current bodies and minds. Well, 7 now, as Dupe Zan got killed. His soul would be different from Max or King Zan's souls, as they were different people. So God is now stuck with two Zans... but I'm sure He can deal with it.

BTW: there is a little alien DNA in our mostly-human podsters. Remember, the gandarium germs were used to install it. Note the differences in their blood, for example. But they are almost entirely human: Pierce did studies of Max in WR, and found him human (except the blood), and "Harding" said that their powers are human.

The Skins are true aliens, covered by fake human bodies. These are a different group entirely; don't be confused!

Thanks for clearing up the biology aspect for me so it made some more sense! (...)

But your soul/essence is soley you and it is not of a physical nature so how can this same 4 being existing at the same time in two different sets of bodies? You can not take a soul or an essence and divide it in two halves and then say this is me and that is me too! It would be like us humans having our soul in two different bodies right now while we are chatting on this board! That just is not possible! How are the writers explaining this?
HA! The writers, I fear, could care less...

For me, I do it this way: Your essence, "soul" perhaps, is information. If you consider your brain as a computer, we are talking about the software and data inside. Since it is information, it can be copied.

So, the original R4's essences were copied, probably (?) while they were alive. The essences were downloaded into the brains of the 8 fetuses in the pods, with the NM4's essences' memories edited or blocked. Again, this is data; subject to manipulation.

Souls? Good question. "Mom" didn't say souls, she said "essences". It's possible that the original R4's souls went (wherever) when they died, and that the 8 hybrids each have new souls reflecting their current bodies and minds. Well, 7 now, as Dupe Zan got killed. His soul would be different from Max or King Zan's souls, as they were different people. So God is now stuck with two Zans... but I'm sure He can deal with it.

BTW: there is a little alien DNA in our mostly-human podsters. Remember, the gandarium germs were used to install it. Note the differences in their blood, for example. But they are almost entirely human: Pierce did studies of Max in WR, and found him human (except the blood), and "Harding" said that their powers are human.

The Skins are true aliens, covered by fake human bodies. These are a different group entirely; don't be confused!

[/B][/QUOTE]
_____________________________________________

Hey there Reggie,

I have to say that I agree with GrhmLz on this one. The podster's can't have different souls/essences because other wise, that wouldn't have been them in the past lives. They would be totally differnt people/aliens. They would just be made up of human DNA and The old alien DNA from the original royal four on Antar, and be different hybirds. One set of those pods has the original alien essences/souls in them (in my opinion, essence and soul is the same thing, if you feel you can prove otherwise, then feel free to pursuade me). In my opinion, it's the four podster's from Roswell, this would only make sence, since the show is revolved around the pods from Roswell.

- Basically all's I am saying is that one set of those pod's, has the original essences or souls in them.

Great post, Reg! That's the best explanation I've heard to date of the essence/DNA. I especially like the way it frees the podsters to choose their own Destiny.

I thought it is a nice "Theory", but don't really agree with it.

I still think that humans are important to the aliens, maybe alien-hybrid human babies can survive in this atmospher

Not that I want anyone to get pregnant, it's just a thought

-----------
Dreamer
Candygirl
Anti-Tess
Liz is the true Queen !

Honestly, I think that Liz next season is going to have to deal with the fact Max was going to leave her... and all she got was a crappy necklace after the whole experience.

How is Liz going to be able to forgive Max??? And it would appear Max finally knows that Liz/Kyle sex never happened. So Max wants to resume a relationship with Liz. Excuse me???? I think that Liz is too good to be with Max (or a least the season 2) version. - Mariachi Max aside -....

And what about Sean - I've never seen him more than being the rebound guy anyway... What happens to Sean if he's hurt???

Hey Shapeshifter--learning how to do FAN ART now huh, thats terrific, beautiful job!!!!

Thanks Tasyfa for responding about the WHIRLWIND constellation--yes very confusing in Liz's vision red and purples, in Michaels and Lareks--Blue and Yellow--thing that make you go hmmmmm!!!

I couldn't have worded it better if I tried. I think the writer's are going to be making a big mistake by taking the show in a totally different direction that Season #1. Season #1 just had so much mystery revealed little by little, so it kept you glued to the show and wanted to see what happens next. And this pregnancy, well I really can't fing words to express how I feel about this one. The only real thing I can say is, "Big mistake Jason Katims". If the producers / writers, or whoever is in charge of scripts, is taking this show in the direction I think they are for season #3. Then I can definitly see this show ending for good at the end of season #3. Because they only thing I see in Roswell is a mini-soapopera.

The two things I don't want to see next season are:

1.) This pregnancy turning out to be real.

2.) Having a season dedicated to Max trying to save his son, then at the end of the season there is anyother cliffhanger, where Max find's out there was no pregnancy/baby.

Well this is how I feel anyways.

ITA, GraceKel!

Here's one of my thoughts on the Sean situation. I think Sean is good for the gang. I don't like the Liz relationship since it takes away from Liz&Max (being the Dreamer that I am), but if Sean was "bad" then Liz's awesome instincts would have told her that something wasn't right with Sean and she wouldn't have gotten so close to him. So, unless something in Sean starts "changing" (naturally or through alien intervention), Sean can't be "bad." However, if it did go this way, Liz's instincts not picking up on it earlier would just be another CHAD--and it's not like that's ever stopped TPTB before.

In other words:
Liz would KNOW if Sean was bad.

GraceKel, I went back and saw Alex's chessboard you pointed out. Thank you.

Mods, you can close this one. Thanks.