so it was time to start again with the liz's myth thread.

you guys know the rules
no spiolers
no spoilers
no spoilers
no actor bashing
and anything else u can thing of

sorry guys ive been mindwarped cant remember a thing. so all the liz stuff that was posting in the opening of the thread can someone do that pretty please...pleeeeeeaaaaaaassssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeee

the jedi ansestors will be proud of u

so enjoy post averything that could connect liz with the royal 4
everything counts

ok the intro to liz's importance to the alien mythology is at this link
http://ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology/intro.htm

never surrender.......

so we were talking about the granolith last

and seans connection

if EOTW was a mind warp

liz connection with the granolith

legend

TESS: 'you're scared of pierce.....more then the others'

what does this mean was nesado scared of the skins........or were the skins his bosses

nice to meet u glad u can join us. We can never have to much sunshine

Zero's intro to the Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology thread is at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology/intro.htm

I will try to check in later and see how things are going.

QueenA, in Max 2 Max, I don't think the writers had considered actual "Skins" yet, though there was speculation that agent Pierce was really and evil alien. (see http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/pierce.htm ). But I think Nasedo and Tess were just referring to "other" leaders of the Special Unit.

[and now editing my own typo in the intro link ]

I have been MIA for a while and my project is almost over. Got a moment to stop by and WOW. Things are moving along and looking great.
Thanks Shapeshifter and Vihmakass. You guys are doing a great job.

I hope to be back online to stay in about a week, but was so glad to get by and see you all here.

It was you.......................

TESS: 'you're scared of pierce.....more then the others'

what does this mean was nesado scared of the skins........or were the skins his bosses

I think this meant the other Alien Hunters that were there before Pierce..he even says he is new to the project..so mayeb that is what tess meant...???...

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

(p.s. Hey all..so glad FF is back!!! MISSED YOU GUYS!!!!)

I too have been lurking around here and usually go when I hear some of your responses. I cant wait to post my thoughts on things as soon as things pick up around here.That was a bit corny but it sumed it up nicely dontcha think??

See You around!!

Jessica

Well - I've finally finished revising the Intro (though the revision is NOT posted yet)!! I hope to (with Shapeshifter's amazing help) have the Newly revised Intro up and in place by the time the Official Thread #50 (this one is kind of like 49B!) is posted.

I was behind in my reading, so now - with the crash - I have to start fresh!

Is is me - or is the Crashdown banner at the top revised to add Liz's face on it - or maybe I never noticed it???

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

not for a while...

Okay, how is this for a spin, would people had still watched the show if the baby was Max and Liz's????

And then Kivar coming to get the baby, to destroy the real "heir"?

I mean, think about how Max and Liz could go fight for their child...

But would we still like it? Would we cry the "no teen pregnancy" card then???

Just curious....

Well - I've finally finished revising the Intro (though the revision is NOT posted yet)!! I hope to (with Shapeshifter's amazing help) have the Newly revised Intro up and in place by the time the Official Thread #50 (this one is kind of like 49B!) is posted.

I was behind in my reading, so now - with the crash - I have to start fresh!

Is is me - or is the Crashdown banner at the top revised to add Liz's face on it - or maybe I never noticed it???

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

I am pretty sure liz's face was always there...atleast i am 87.982518% sure

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

As long as we're posting links to background info, here are some links to my symbols collections:
Cave Map and Destiny Book: Symbols and Text
V-Formation Gallery
Destiny Dialogue

Zero! I can't wait to see the new introduction. I'm sure it will be great. Thanks for all of your hard work on it. I hope the crash didn't mess up any of your work or archives.

I was just doing some browsing and I noticecd that the pentagon device first shown in Destiny does not have the symbols on it that Brody's does later.

From Destiny

From Ask Not:

Speculations?

And a special welcome to newbies and welcome back to posters who have been away for a while (which is totally understandable!!).

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

sars, This is for you:

I got this idea from sars and a thread that was shut down. As long as I'm comparing pictures, I decided to take a look at Destiny and Departure.

Destiny:

Departure:

Maybe this has been done before, but here are my initial thoughts:

Both have the group arranged in a v-formation of sorts. In Destiny, Tess is off to the side a bit as if in that famous 3+1 pattern. In Destiny all four are looking ahead (or looking at Liz as she walks away) and in Departure they are looking at Max.

Max: Max is still in front. Is that the exact same shirt? He is even standing in basically the same position.

Liz: Is Liz wearing the same shirt in DEP that Isabel was wearing in Destiny?

Michael: The only one wearing a very light color in both.

That's my start. Other ideas?

Both have the group arranged in a v-formation of sorts. In Destiny, Tess is off to the side a bit as if in that famous 3+1 pattern. In Destiny all four are looking ahead (or looking at Liz as she walks away) and in Departure they are looking at Max.

Max: Max is still in front. Is that the exact same shirt? He is even standing in basically the same position.

Liz: Is Liz wearing the same shirt in DEP that Isabel was wearing in Destiny?

Michael: The only one wearing a very light color in both.

That's my start. Other ideas?

holy cow, Dreamer! At the risk of being incredibly simplistic, I think that the costume department just ran out of clothes ideas.

The black shirt.. Well, black clothes always signify brooding, serious, dark undertones. In both season enders, Max is seriously torn and devastated, so they heighten that with the shirt. (That, and Jason looks grreat in it, lol)

Brendan just looks great in white, I guess. Plus, you have to contrast that with the dark tones of nearly all the other clothes the cast was wearing.

Is it just me, or is there a 5+1 formation at Departure?

ps: Im Tesseract, by the way. This is my alter-ego for when I get my old profile back. Nice coming here!

sars, This is for you:

I got this idea from sars and a thread that was shut down. As long as I'm comparing pictures, I decided to take a look at Destiny and Departure.

Destiny:

Departure:

Maybe this has been done before, but here are my initial thoughts:

Both have the group arranged in a v-formation of sorts. In Destiny, Tess is off to the side a bit as if in that famous 3+1 pattern. In Destiny all four are looking ahead (or looking at Liz as she walks away) and in Departure they are looking at Max.

Max: Max is still in front. Is that the exact same shirt? He is even standing in basically the same position.

Liz: Is Liz wearing the same shirt in DEP that Isabel was wearing in Destiny?

Michael: The only one wearing a very light color in both.

That's my start. Other ideas?

[/B]

DreamerAtHeart!!!!!!!!! wow i'm honored you were inspired by my Destiny/Departure question those were awesome observations you made. Keep it up!!

I hope i can open the Destiny/Departure thread and it stays open sometime Wish me luck!

I was wondering if the Destiny Book can have more than one method of translation? I was thinking that perhaps there was an alien way of translating it (the way that Mindwarped Alex used - via a formula through a computer, mathematical). The translation discovered in BIY is the alien version of the book. HOWEVER... the book can also be translated a human way, via translating it by matching it up with (identical or similar) Native American symbols.

Each translation is completely different from the other, but both are needed for the podsters to do what they need to do (whatever that is)? The alien translation describes who they WERE, how they were created and how to get home (Granilith instructions)? Human translation tells them what they have to do on Earth... their Earth destiny?

In theory, the DB is only half translated post-DEP. It still needs to be translated the *human* way before it's contents are completely revealed/understood?

Melodious

I was wondering if the Destiny Book can have more than one method of translation? I was thinking that perhaps there was an alien way of translating it (the way that Mindwarped Alex used - via a formula through a computer, mathematical). The translation discovered in BIY is the alien version of the book. HOWEVER... the book can also be translated a human way, via translating it by matching it up with (identical or similar) Native American symbols.

Each translation is completely different from the other, but both are needed for the podsters to do what they need to do (whatever that is)? The alien translation describes who they WERE, how they were created and how to get home (Granilith instructions)? Human translation tells them what they have to do on Earth... their Earth destiny?

In theory, the DB is only half translated post-DEP. It still needs to be translated the *human* way before it's contents are completely revealed/understood?

Melodious

Very Good Theory......very possible!!!!

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

edited to add: WOOHOO...i started the second page!!!! anyway.......

TESS: 'you're scared of pierce.....more then the others'

what does this mean was nesado scared of the skins........or were the skins his bosses

Hey there...glad to see this thread is up and running again...I can't believe what the crash did...that was so awful!

Hey QueenAmidala01! This is some pretty interesting speculation from one statement...Personally I take this comment to be meant one of three ways...(Of course, depending upon where they take the story in the future):

1.) she was referring to all of the other
Special Agents who work with Pierce...
Therefore Pierce is more frightening to
than the other agents...

2.) Tess could have been referring to
the "skins"...meaning Nasedo is more
afraid of Agent Pierce than he is of the
"skins"...or

3.) This comment can also be interpreted the
reverse way of thinking..."more than the
others" can refer to Other aliens or
humans, either captured by or working
under Pierce, that are less afraid of
Agent Pierce than Nasedo is!

I think any one of these speculations
can fit under the theory that the SPECIAL UNIT was an organization set up by the "skins" under the government...it is likely that both Humans and aliens are working under the organization which would explain Pierce being human. Regardless as to the theory of whether Nasedo was actually the shapeshifter that escaped or not...it may explain how Nasedo was able to get so close to strike a deal with Kivar in the first place! Since Nasedo was supposedly one of the orginial shapeshifters from the crash of 47', this would explain a dual enemy threat to Nasedo...the skins and any human beings in government that are set out to hunt him or any of his kind. This would explain Nasedo's fear and others fear or lack of fear by any other agents, human or alien, if they were working underneath Agent Pierce!

JUST SOME THOUGHT...PEACE PEOPLE...AND I'LL SEE U LATER

Heather

thats a pretty indepth obersvation GrhmLz....I like it

Heather

Liz's first appearance in Season Two showed her dressed for a job interview with Congresswoman W. and being observed by an obsessed Max.

Season 3 speculations?
***Remember, Speculations Only. No Spoilers Allowed OR Aloud!!!
Thank you all.

I love watching season 1, but as soon as Tess and Nacedo show up I become very confused at everyone's behavior.
The 6 of them keep saying we need to trust eachother but everytime they make some sort of discovery they hide it from one another and trust Nacedo and Tess. What?
For ex. in 4Square, Tess goes on and on to Isabel that she feels she is destined to be with Max. Isabel doesn't say anything about that to Max. Max sees Tess with the DB and doesn't tell anyone. Michael learns about Polman Ranch from Tess and doesn't tell anyone. Isabel and Michael has crazy dreams and they don't tell anyone. Are we seeing a pattern here folks. They need some lessons in trust. Hopefully we will see that in Season 3.
OH! And Notice everytime someone has a memory flash the same sound effects are used when Tess uses her mind warps.
Also I think that Nacedo wanted Max to be captured in MTTM. Why did he save Liz and not Max? Why was she the first priority?

Does anyone ealse wonder about these season 1 questions knowing what we know from Departure?

What are your thoughts?

I love watching season 1, but as soon as Tess and Nacedo show up I become very confused at everyone's behavior.
The 6 of them keep saying we need to trust eachother but everytime they make some sort of discovery they hide it from one another and trust Nacedo and Tess. What?
For ex. in 4Square, Tess goes on and on to Isabel that she feels she is destined to be with Max. Isabel doesn't say anything about that to Max. Max sees Tess with the DB and doesn't tell anyone. Michael learns about Polman Ranch from Tess and doesn't tell anyone. Isabel and Michael has crazy dreams and they don't tell anyone. Are we seeing a pattern here folks. They need some lessons in trust. Hopefully we will see that in Season 3.
OH! And Notice everytime someone has a memory flash the same sound effects are used when Tess uses her mind warps.
Also I think that Nacedo wanted Max to be captured in MTTM. Why did he save Liz and not Max? Why was she the first priority?

Does anyone ealse wonder about these season 1 questions knowing what we know from Departure?

What are your thoughts?

ITA!!!! I think all of the visions were mindwarps..just to get the PS into TESS/NASEDO action......evil people...oops...i mean AliEns!!!!!!!

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

but as well 4 the no. of podsters and 7 the friendships

Miss L Parker - welcome back! Yes - I ponder these questions a lot! And a while back when we were discussion what we wanted to see in the first episode of Season 3, I have always said I would like to see a "Scooby Gang" meeting where they ALL admit their mistake of keeping things from each other, and commit to being honest with each other, and working as a true "team" from now on! The very least, I want to see a "heart-to-heart" talk between Liz and Max! It will be interesting to see what we get!

Night all!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Liz's first appearance in Season Two showed her dressed for a job interview with Congresswoman W. and being observed by an obsessed Max.

Season 3 speculations?
***Remember, [b]Speculations Only. No Spoilers Allowed OR Aloud!!!
Thank you all. [/B]

I wouldn't be surprised if we started out with a typical Crashdown Café scene. Maria and Liz passing out meals while chatting with each other. Maybe Max comes in w/ Michael (very much like the pilot episode). Then Maria says something like, "Why are you still keeping your distance from Max? Why haven't you told him everything yet? It's been a whole summer already. Now Michael and I, on the other hand...." And Liz jumps in with, "Maria! I don't want to hear any more about how perfect your love life is. With me and Max it's just, you know, complicated. I will tell him about Future Max--Just not yet. I need to find the right time."

Something like that would allow the summer to have passed. Everyone taking a break from the Scooby Gang action without us, the audience, missing anything important--like the Liz/Max heart-to-heart they so desperately need.

I think it's very unlikely that they will start S3 right on the hilltop as we left off S2. The gang will look a little different. It will have to be near fall w/ school about to start, etc. The summer could just be some down-time. I don't care if it doesn't make sense that they wait 3 months to talk about everything--just as long as we get to see it!

Ok. I went off a little more than I should have for a midnight post. Off to bed.

Ok. So I didn't go to bed just yet. One more thought:

The thing that bothers me about the Liz/Max-alt-timeline-baby theory is that at the very beginning of TEOTW Liz encourages Max to go back and make changes, even though she knows they won't exist as they do now (2014). She says, "I have no regrets."

I think that if FMax and FLiz had had a baby, then they wouldn't have tried adjusting the past so that their baby wouldn't exist. Unless, that baby was part of the "everyone" who died. I tend to think that FMax would have told PLiz about the baby, if there was one, when he told her everything else. Although, he did say (didn't he?) that he couldn't tell Liz "everything."

Hmmmm? I guess there's a case for an FMax/FLiz baby, but my gut tells me "no"--not if FLiz had "no regrets" in sending FMax to change the past.

Here's the dialogue from Crashdown for anyone interested:
quote:(It's the year 2014. Future Max and Future Liz are in the granilith chamber. Max prepares to travel back in time using the granilith's power)

FUTURE MAX: I won't leave you.

FUTURE LIZ: No, no, no. Max, you have to.

FUTURE MAX: If I'm successful, if I can do this, you and I won't exist. Not as we do now.

FUTURE LIZ: Max, if you don't do this, we're gonna die. Everyone will. Max, you have to do this. You have to try it.

FUTURE MAX: I'll never see you again.

FUTURE MAX: Thank you.

FUTURE LIZ: For what?

FUTURE MAX: For every kiss, every smile.

FUTURE LIZ: Max, I don't have any regrets.

wow thanks....i always thought thats was sci fi. so um can u view it from the southern hemisphere as well or is this just for the the northies

and Zero's intro (soon to be updated!! ) is here at ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology/intro.htm:

Does anyone know where to find a real picture of the real sky that shows this formation? It could be an interesting addition to the V-Formation Image Gallery.

Thanks.

What are your thoughts?

My thought is you should come over to the CHADs thread. We handle this ..."stuff"... all the time. And one topic currently being cussed and discussed is how nonsensical "Departure" was, and how little we actually do know.

For example, why didn't "Mr. Harding" turn over the pods 40 years ago? Why can't Tess hide the memory of Alex's death from Kyle (or Brody's freak-out from Mrs. Deluca) for more than a couple weeks, yet be powerful enough to take over Alex for a month or more? What makes Tess think that Kivar won't kill her again (and whatever happened to Nikolas... is there a connection? )?

Lots of good questions. Come, and bring refreshments!

Dreameratheart (and Shapeshifter):
My idea of what happens when they start Season 3 is
Departure, Part 2. I answer the above questions in it, of course.

And can we have one of the people finishing lunch, paying their check, and getting a package of Tic-tacs?

I think they need to start next season...where they left off in Departure...but i doubt that will happen...we are talking about the roswell writers here!!!! have they ever done what we wanted them to do???? But if they do start out after the summer..they better explain what has happened between Max/Liz and Michael/Maria...and between Liz/Sean....IN VERY THOROUGH DETAIL!!!! IMO atleast!!!!

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

yep i alrady know about antares the v constellation of scropiua and the v constellation of tuaras thanks for your help

I have NO clue.....But i just wanted to say......that max should use his healing power...to bring BOB back.....I MISS BOB

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

This is unlikely, but who knows?

The source of Michael’s human DNA was found. But what about the source of Max, Isabel and Tess?

And didn't someone say that Liz also has a duplicate? Is this a clue that she might be a hybrid too?

Are the original aliens still alive on the planet? If so, why aren’t they mentioned?

If Max and Tess are basically “advanced humans”, why couldn’t the baby breathe our air? The whole thing seemed to happen too fast to be believable. Remember Isabel’s “false pregnancy” that turned out to be a memory from her alien life? Could that baby have been a memory from the aliens Ava and Zan? If so, perhaps the baby “dying” is also a memory. And that would explain why he doesn’t seem to exist today.

If these children from past alien lives exist, what happened to them? Are they still alive on the planet? Even if they died, the aliens could have sent their DNA along to earth as well.

Skin & Bones

Melodious

Guess she abandons Khivar's plan to deliver the rest of the Royal 4 and the heir when Max commits to Liz.

But it still makes no sense why Tess staying would prevent the end of the world.

Either someone is misinformed or lying deliberately.

Oh, my take on the baby not surviving on Earth is that it's a product of two hybrids, perhaps it genetically mutates the child's biological system further. Maybe Tess didn't know at all what she was talking about in terms of the earth's atmosphere, it could have been other factors too. Honestly, I believe it had nothing to do with atmosphere. By the way, if Lonnie and Rath had "alien sex" why didn't Lonnie become prgenant as well sometime in their long relationship?
Also we still don't know how much human DNA was processed with the alien DNA to create the Podsters. This genetic make-up will have a factor as to how quickly they possibly develop their powers, etc. Also, I thought there was a theory about cloning that specifies that the further you clone something from its original form (cloning a sheep of a cloned sheep for example) creates a biological mutation of sorts...or is that something made up? I remember the film Multiplicity (Michael Keaton, and Andie MacDowell) dealt with that idea, but then again it's Hollywood, so who knows for sure.

Hey Everyone

In the midst of the whole CrashCrisis,I found myself looking back at old transcripts, and eppies.

I noticed some interesting things that I hadn't before.

In Heatwave there's this scene between Max and Liz

quote:

MAX: Liz, I think that what I'm afraid of isn't that we try this and it works out really badly. What I'm afraid of is we try it and it works out really well. I'm afraid of feeling everything that I know I would feel. Because I know it's not meant to be. And somewhere down the line, we're gonna get hurt. I can live with that. I just couldn't bear to hurt you.

LIZ: But that's not your decision, is it?

MAX: I guess not.

Isn't kind of eerie how in a sense these events did come to pass? How in TEOTW it was Liz who was the one to set up Max to fall out of love with her. I'm curious if JK already was considering the outline of how he wanted to break up Max and Liz.

Has anyone ever explained the correct cause of Liz's "alien hickey"?

Also how could Liz see Max's flashes of the crash?

Is it possible that the reason why the PodSquad's interaction with humans is because they're hybrids (part human/part alien) as oppose to the other alien species encountered in SI and S2, who are pure alien without any human genetics?
Judging by their powers, and abilities I would believe that Max/Iz/Mi/Tess are more alien than human, which leads me to a theory that the right human partner is essential to their development. The right person in their lives could help them achieve the "balance", the wrong one could lead to their demise.
This kind of gestures to the MOM O GRAM that told the PodSquad that "You will know them only by the evil within."

What is the Balance?
I've watched the definition of this change between the seasons. I believe that because the PodSquad are part alien and part human they need to not only accept both aspects of what they are on Earth, but understand their human side too. I mean, the way it seems is that their alien abilities came naturally to them in their current lives (they just need development), but what lacked was their able to connect with humans because of bad experiences.
I find it hard to believe that the ones who sent them to Earth did not take into consideration that they (Mi/Iz/Max/Tess) would form close intimate relationships with humans as they had back on P-SAWN. Is it too farfetch or simple to assume that it was a part of their destiny to be able to have relationships with humans in order to tape into their essences, and past life memories?
When Max was kissing Liz they were connecting on a deep emotional level unknown to the both of them. Perhaps it was that sort of emtional/physical connection that allows them to really see themselves.

I hope this makes some sort of sense.

Oh, the Dupes (Zan, Lonnie, Rath, and Ava) have both the memories and "essences" of their alien namesakes. The New Mexico 4 have only the essences; the memories are blocked, or edited out, or some combo of the two. So there's actually 12 of these characters to keep track of!

This is what I think...Apparently there are 4 other planets involved in this conflict from Antar (we assume this from the episode MAX IN THE CITY when we met the other 4 leaders aside from NIcholas who was representing Kivar from Antar). As of right now...we are also left to assume that the ROYAL 4 are all from Antar.

Someone had asked an interesting question from another thread regarding this matter of "healing Power." They had wanted to know that since the pilot episode told us that the aliens have the ability to change molecular structure and this is how Max healed Liz, shouldn't that mean the other aliens have the ability to heal as well?

Now as far as Max having the power to heal, I don't think it has to do with being human...the Royal 4 are alien in origin. Their past lives were lived on Antar not earth. They are not human in orgin...the only difference in their present lives here on earth is that human subjects who had the "genetic flaw" had DNA taken from them so it could be combined with the alien DNA through the use of the crystals. I think what Nasedo was referring to in THE WHITE ROOM during season 1 was that humans have the ability to use the same powers as the aliens if they had access to all of their brain power. The ROYAL 4 don't have the powers because of the human DNA. These powers have always been alien in nature! That was why Michael was confused about who he actually was like because of the new human dna donated to him so he could live on earth.

As far as the healing stones, this is what I think! They are an alien artifact that requires energy to work. The energy comes from within the individual using the power of the healing stones. Either an alien or a human being can put energy into the stones so they work. In THE BALANCE, Riverdog explained he had used those stones to heal "Nasedo" when he fell ill like Michael. I think the purpose of the "healing stones" is to heal "balance" and not heal "permanent injury." Because if they were capable of doing that...Nasedo should not have died the second time around. This is why I think Michael was helped when he was sick in Season 1. As far as we know Max is an Antarian...and he has the ability to heal. It is possible that each alien is genetically designed to be stronger in one power over another. So in answer to another poster's question...I think it is possible that the others have the ability to heal as well just not on the degree Max is able to...so maybe they can heal small injuries but not injuries revolving around life or death situations. Maybe this division of power has something to do with the BALANCE among the ROYAL 4 that has been mentioned (Future Max referred to it in the END OF THE WORLD after Tess had left the group and town). Each alien probably has a stronger power within the group unit but still maintain other alien powers on a lower degree! Maybe we just haven't seen the use of 'healing powers' by the others because they weren't put in a position to use it on their lower level of use. Just an idea.

MAYBE MY THOUGHTS WILL HELP WITH A LITTLE INSIGHT INTO IT........

Heather

Someone had asked an interesting question from another thread regarding this matter of "healing Power." They had wanted to know that since the pilot episode told us that the aliens have the ability to change molecular structure and this is how Max healed Liz, shouldn't that mean the other aliens have the ability to heal as well?

Now as far as Max having the power to heal, I don't think it has to do with being human...the Royal 4 are alien in origin. Their past lives were lived on Antar not earth. They are not human in orgin...the only difference in their present lives here on earth is that human subjects who had the "genetic flaw" had DNA taken from them so it could be combined with the alien DNA through the use of the crystals. I think what Nasedo was referring to in THE WHITE ROOM during season 1 was that humans have the ability to use the same powers as the aliens if they had access to all of their brain power. The ROYAL 4 don't have the powers because of the human DNA. These powers have always been alien in nature! That was why Michael was confused about who he actually was like because of the new human dna donated to him so he could live on earth.

As far as the healing stones, this is what I think! They are an alien artifact that requires energy to work. The energy comes from within the individual using the power of the healing stones. Either an alien or a human being can put energy into the stones so they work. In THE BALANCE, Riverdog explained he had used those stones to heal "Nasedo" when he fell ill like Michael. I think the purpose of the "healing stones" is to heal "balance" and not heal "permanent injury." Because if they were capable of doing that...Nasedo should not have died the second time around. This is why I think Michael was helped when he was sick in Season 1. As far as we know Max is an Antarian...and he has the ability to heal. It is possible that each alien is genetically designed to be stronger in one power over another. So in answer to another poster's question...I think it is possible that the others have the ability to heal as well just not on the degree Max is able to...so maybe they can heal small injuries but not injuries revolving around life or death situations. Maybe this division of power has something to do with the BALANCE among the ROYAL 4 that has been mentioned (Future Max referred to it in the END OF THE WORLD after Tess had left the group and town). Each alien probably has a stronger power within the group unit but still maintain other alien powers on a lower degree! Maybe we just haven't seen the use of 'healing powers' by the others because they weren't put in a position to use it on their lower level of use. Just an idea.

MAYBE MY THOUGHTS WILL HELP WITH A LITTLE INSIGHT INTO IT........

Heather

cool theory
but i dont think that their healing power is about changing the molecular structure.....because changing the molecular structure of an object is like changing the floor boards to become like a trampoline.....while using the healing power involves restoring damaged cells bringing together riped tissues and stoping bleeding etc...

Michale was healing River Dog in Into the Woods.

Tess was healing Max face in Ask Not.

but what if max did stimulate liz's hidden powers a little bit ........but its not enough for her to work with
so maybe if she was to nearly die again in the next season, caused by the new timeline and max was to heal her once more it would tap a little further into her potential powers, then liz will have a little more to work on and eventually help the podsters

Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't they a mixture of the two. as in part alien part human?
Here is my question: wern't they killed on their palnet? and if they were, then there current lives have no connection with their past, saved the memories. so they have powers and memories of past life,right? explain to me why it matters so much to them to return home if there past life is dead. what exactly would the be returning home to? it wouldn't really be them.
Now i think in the S1 they tell us that the come to earth to avoid the war. so i guess they left before they died. then if that is true. why did their mother show up to tell them why they had come?
another question is. How the heck did the mother know who they would be unless the saw the events previously in some kinda of vision or pshycic ablity to foresee the future. and if they could see the the future, then why not change or travel to prevent certin events from taking place? Unless,the message from their mother was eaxctly that, to warn them of the forseen future and it is their destiny to change it. becuase they(Max's mother nad father) could not do it themselves. but then there is the question as to why? as in why couoldn't max's parents travel back? grr i don't know. heheheh

---------------
"I see green people.!"

Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't they a mixture of the two. as in part alien part human?
Here is my question: wern't they killed on their palnet? and if they were, then there current lives have no connection with their past, saved the memories. so they have powers and memories of past life,right? explain to me why it matters so much to them to return home if there past life is dead. what exactly would the be returning home to? it wouldn't really be them.
Now i think in the S1 they tell us that the come to earth to avoid the war. so i guess they left before they died. then if that is true. why did their mother show up to tell them why they had come?
another question is. How the heck did the mother know who they would be unless the saw the events previously in some kinda of vision or pshycic ablity to foresee the future. and if they could see the the future, then why not change or travel to prevent certin events from taking place? Unless,the message from their mother was eaxctly that, to warn them of the forseen future and it is their destiny to change it. becuase they could not do it themselves. but then there is the question as to why? as in why couoldn't max's parents travel back? grr i don't know. heheheh

[/B]
The podsters powers are all human..just a couple of thousands of years advanced the the rest of civilisation

the mother doesn't have a clue what will happen she said kinda send in a clue that she didnt anyway in the mommogram that was sent to earth...

" if u see me now that means you are alive and well.".......so i doubt she wouldve known the future

maybe the war couldnt be changed by going back into time because its a timeline that couldnt be fixed up.....they the podsters were sent to earth

and yeah i also thought too that the podsters were different to their past lives so had no connection except for the memories
but the podsters are continueing the line of royalty that was lost in the war

"even if she did say if you are seeing this now, then you are alive and well." she must have known something. I mean maybe she said it becuase she couldn't have known if they would have survived. but if they did their mission was to change or even prevent certin events from happening. why else send a message? just to tell them they had to return home? home to a lived and passed away life? is it their destiny to return home as a umm errr higher specieces? but aren't they already? better or above humane level, i mean? unless a plan of evolution was at stake, and they were sent here to do just that am i thinking way to hard way to hard here? hmm naybe i should use what i am thinking for my fanfic. bwhahahaha
Edited to add:but the podsters are continueing the line of royalty that was lost in the war

Why are they continuing a memorie of the past? for what purpose? if it's dead and gone? that is why i said they must have a reason to be on earth. maybe it wasn't ment for them to go back. I mean nesado did warn max about sending out the call
LV
----------------
"don't mind me. my mind takes me places and there is no telling when I'll return home"
"Season 3? you mean 2A!first take was caca"

maybe the war couldnt be changed by going back into time because its a timeline that couldnt be fixed up.....they the podsters were sent to earth

or maybe they knew better than to mess with time. At this point it doesn't seem like going back to 'fix' things is doing anyone any good. As far as i can tell,the problems (or rather *more* problems) began when FM came back to 'fix' things. At his defense though, they had little time to think the consequences of time travel through. I would think that an alien planet with the technology and capability to travel through time would know a little better.

yeah maybe its against some sort of law or law against nature in there world
also what if the granolith is the only one of its kind.......the only piece of technology ever created that has the capability of time travel, I mean think about it time travel can cuase severe grandma paradox, this happened with fmax like u said . therefore it can be used to destroy civilisations if u wanted. because of this possibility that is why it was sent to earth, for protection maybe the podsters are its bodyguards

Why are they continuing a memorie of the past? for what purpose? if it's dead and gone? that is why i said they must have a reason to be on earth. maybe it wasn't ment for them to go back. I mean nesado did warn max about sending out the call
LV
----------------

ok your suggestions are making me think what was the whole point of sendin podsters to earth in the first place

maybe the only way kivar can rule on antar is to make sure that all the past royalty is erased, that way a new line can start...with his genes..

its like with some male lions that fight other males for females if the intruder wins they will kill cubs fathered by a male lion that has lost
so they start a new line
this is like kivar and the only way to bring back the way antar used to be was to recreate the 4 and hope they fight againt kivar

about that momogram im startin to beleive maybe that was a setup by the skins

as well what if they were sent to earth to colonise because their world is orbiting a red giant which is a star nearin its death

didn't the star already die? wasn't that mentioned in MtD? (or one of the TEOtW aftermath epi's)
Speaking of the Red Star... (now I'm not sure if this has been discussed or not yet so forgive me if I'm repeating a done topic) the Star was mentioned during Sexual Healing...And then dead after TEOtW fiasco...was this star in some way connected to Liz and Max's relationship as merely a coincidental metaphoric storytelling device...or could their relationship mean that much more? Could this add a new level to Liz's/the humans significance to the aliens? I was thinking a sort of weather effect that maybe the home planet was aware of, and possibly counting on(by weather effect i mean the whole theory that if a butterfly flaps it's wings in one part of the world it will violently storm somewhere else once the momentum of that flapping has built up to that degree) could this be a way to defeat their enemies? I know it's a way out there theory..but I've always wondered about that star... any thoughts?

Well nature is out of the question here.
I mean,nature to us is one thing but how do we know what their"nature" is like? When it comes to "out of worldy things", we can't just assume things will fit logicaly in place. we are dealing with aliens( or super advanced human/aliens :lol. Not everything is going to make the best of sense in retrosepct to their nature.

as for them being bodyguards of the granolith, thats kind of out the window, since tess went bye bye.

RE: Healing
Maybe the hybrids can only heal hybrids and humans. They needed the healing stones for Nacedo. Nacedo had once told Tess to use them if anything ever happened to him.

RE: UPN Board
Where can I find it? Won't it be confusing if there are two boards to keep track of? Maybe not. The more the merrier, I guess.

RE: Mom-o-gram. I think it was a recording put in the spaceship. BUT then why would Nacedo call them "communicators"? (Or was it Topolsky that called them that?) And, if they are "communicators," why the heck haven't they used them to communicate with anybody?!? Oh, I almost forgot, this is Roswell, the Land of CHADs.

RE: Hi! to all Newbies!

Well, this is going to be, above all others theories, an exercise of imagination, as FM has already changed the present, and so the future, and we will never know if it fits or not. I’ll give it a try.
First of all, I’m stuck with the idea that Kvar, as a lover, is a Vilondra issue and this has been amply confirmed by Lonnie in MITC. I still expect to see something more about it.
So year 2014. Tess is one of R4 unit and somehow does her share. But she’s no bride and no queen, as M/L are together and married. So she’s never had her past life’s position among the R4 and she’s clearly unsatisfied. This makes her the weak point of the group. On the other hand their enemies, with the R4 strong and unattackable, must find a solution. And here comes someone from the 5 planets whom, with his position and a little charme, can guarantee Tess the life she had in the past and the same or similar social position. And she leaves.
As FM didn’t say much to PL , we have to assume that the deal never occurred or failed in that timeline. Ciao. Elena.

Guess she abandons Khivar's plan to deliver the rest of the Royal 4 and the heir when Max commits to Liz.

But it still makes no sense why Tess staying would prevent the end of the world.

Either someone is misinformed or lying deliberately.

You all don't get it!!!! I'm going to put this in bold so I make sure you guys read this!

The reason why the Skins were stronger is because when Tess left, she gave them INFO!!!!

Don't you see, FMax mistaken Tess for being heart-broken, but it was an act, like her grief for Alex, it was a performance, so she pretends to be heartbroken but in reality she was pissed,

Because Max and Liz were inseperable, she couldn't go thru with her plan, hence she left...and went and joined the enemy, but they didn't know that...

you see, Tess was evil in any timeline, that's why EOTW does make sense, because just like in the present, FLiz and FMax, didn't know of Tess's deception. Tess's plan was the same no matter what timeline she was in, they just didn't know that

Just coming out of my busy-work-land to say hi and tell Zero I'm anxioulsy awaiting Intro #50! I almost couldn't find this thread without Zero's standard-start

Until then...

That's all well and good... but then was Tess's "plan" (and/or Kivar's demands) in that alternate EOTW timeline the same as she states in DEP??

Tess: To return home with your child, and deliver the three of you to Kivar.

I think what nermal was trying to say was IF the above is indeed what Kivar wants/wanted... then Tess fulfilled NONE of these things in that alternate EOTW timeline because she left seemingly out of spite. AS you stated ava, in theory, possibly joined up (or tried to join up) with her Skin allies. WHY did she leave? Didn't she have a MISSION to fulfill for Kivar?? By leaving she drops the mission into limbo! Did she deem this mission SO impossible post-*Max and Liz's 'cementing'* that she just gave up and left? Doesn't really seem prudent to me if King Kivar IS expecting the above three things and she goes to him completely empty-handed.

ALSO.... if the above is what Kivar wanted all along... then why didn't he just TAKE what he wanted (especially if they could have just mindraped Tess for the Granilith's location OR she told them where it was willingly - it would have EASILY been in their clutches imo in that alt. EOTW timeline)? This is a story where hybrid engineering & superadvanced alien technology exists. Particularly in those 14 YEARS in that alternate EOTW timeline, couldn't Kivar just have taken some of Max's DNA and some of Tess's, mix it together and concoct an heir? Or is this when Max's brain tattoo factors into this mess? Brain tattoo *must* be passed on the "human" way? Not that seemingly makes all that much difference because it seems - despite the sex having to be "human" - everything about the pregnancy itself (even the kid) seemed totally ALIEN, to the point the kid couldn't survive on Earth (of course, Tess could have very well been lying about all of that, lies all the more believable with her ability to mindwarp). IF Tess is pregnant (and if there's a benevolent god out there, she isn't)... does that kid have the brain tattoo? Or does it take more than just "human" sex (1 hr. floating stuff aside, ahem) to pass it on to a potential heir?

If the above is the case, I don't get why a brain tattoo would be this defining point in who can or can't rule this alien planet. Especially when Kivar has already proven once already that the Royals (brain tattooes and/or birth right aside) CAN be defeated. It seems almost too messianic / superstituous for an advanced alien race(s)... of course, what the he** do I know.

Kivar's very demand of an heir is bewildering to me. Why the hell does he seemingly need Max's kid so badly? Are bloodlines THAT important on alien Antar (Antar, with a system of politics seemingly so cutthroat it would make humans look like "oversensitive baboons" as Whitaker said in her diary)? Why? KIVAR is the King now. Whether he rightfully deserves the title or not, he is, he defeated the former Royals. Why does a kid from the former King matter so much? Shouldn't Kivar concentrate more on his own progeny as opposed to those of the deposed royal set?

IMO... IF the above is what Kivar indeed wants more than anything (Heir, Granilith and the Royals)... then Tess STILL had a mission to fulfill in that alt. EOTW timeline - just because it was "hard" doesn't mean it ceased being in Kivar's plans. Were Kiv's demands EVER met in that alternate EOTW timeline? It seems at least part of it was, two Royals were killed. HOWEVER, it seemed the Royals STILL had the Granilith. The heir situation is unknown and left to speculation (too bad we didn't get more insight on that from FMax - especially considering Max's "heir" is seemingly so important in this storyline). It also took 14 years to kill just TWO of the Royals - just a partial bit of Kivar's seeming demands. When in this new timeline - Kiv has 2 of the 3 things he wants (and it didn't take 14 years to get them either) AND a traitor Royal to top it off (one of the Kings, dupe Zan, is also dead).

So... we have this all new whizbang timeline where "bad guy" Kivar seemingly now has TWO out of the THREE things he wants (heir & granilith). He could easily just send someone else 1000x more powerful than the podsters (like Nikolas - who is apparently still alive as we saw in MITC) and assassinate the Royals while they're still on Earth. It would honestly be illogical if he didn't go this route (logic - yes, I know, a word that doesn't coincide well with Roswell, hmpf). He wants a public execution on Antar? Why is the way they die so important? All that *should* matter is that they're dead and Kiv has no other opposition to the throne. Anything else would honestly be too James Bondian villain (aka, extremely stupid). Doesn't really provide a lot of storylines for S3 if the hybrids are dead. UNLESS the "deal" isn't everything it seemed OR those really were Kivar's demands and they're STILL not met (no baby? no Granilith? He has neither?). If Kivar has the baby and Granilith... I really don't know where the story can go in S3. So something MUST be severely amiss here or there just won't be very much of a Roswell with Max, Michael and Isabel all dead.

Melodious

she also says that their essence was clonned and mixed with human DNA so that they could gain the wisdom and strength of not only who they used to be, but also of who they are as humans.

there is a part in destiny where Nesado tells Micheal "Humans are weak becuase they don't use their Brains to the fullest potential." or somthing like that.

he also says that is why they were cloned human, so that they could access huame capabilities and their alien capablites to their fullest potential, so that they would know and have superior knowledge above their enemies.
.The mother also tells them that as the grow to know them selves as aliens and humans, they will also grow to know the evil with in, meaning that they have to be super smart in order to fight against their enemies and free their people. ( basicly like saying get smarter so you don't get killed this time!:lol

Also, their enemies are and will forever be following them to earth. so they have two missions, keep earth safe, and free their home planet.

Well now with S2, they have three missions. that is if the baby was real. if not then they only have two. hehehe

If you don't belive me. just watch white room and destiny a few times it will all click.

Hurry!!!!! I feel so much better!!! Now I
know why they came to Earth!!!!!!!!!!! I watched destiny four times to figure that all out! I"m slowwwwwww Can't wait till season three!!

LV

...in those 14 YEARS in that alternate EOTW timeline, couldn't Kivar just have taken some of Max's DNA and some of Tess's, mix it together and concoct an heir? Or is this when Max's brain tattoo factors into this mess? Brain tattoo *must* be passed on the "human" way? ...It seems almost too messianic / superstituous for an advanced alien race(s)...

... He wants a public execution on Antar? Why is the way they die so important...Some quick specs: In pre-EOTW life maybe frustrated Tess went for a new plan B with Nicholas et al.

And brain tattoo: maybe it is more important than we think. Maybe it contains some knowledge that is central to the survival of Antarians.

Re "public execution" -- I suspect this could have political importance. But then it would seem to make a martyr of Max. Maybe that would be okay, though, as long as Kvar becomes Max Jr.'s tutor.

She is with Khivar and knows everyone's strengths and weaknesses.

Max has gained nothing to stop his enemies.

Khivar will tear Earth apart to get at Max.

So someone convince me they are not doomed.

After re-reading the "Destiny Dialogue," I have some general speculations.

Zan was the leader. His father died and put Zan in power. (In MITC, Larek lists events as father's funeral, Zan's coronation, Zan's wedding.) Zan was crowned and married (in that order? Perhaps even on the same day). Zan worked hard and the planet flourished, but the society still had some problems and dissatisfied people, as all societies do, even if they were on the "brink of a golden age."

Kivar, a charismatic leader, tapped into those dissatisfied people and problems and turned them into reasons that Zan should no longer be king. Kivar began what he promoted as a "revolution." Somewhere along the way Kivar and Vilondra became an item. Either they truly fell in love from opposite camps (Romeo and Juliet?), Vilondra agreed that Zan was doing a bad job, OR Kivar just used Vilondra to get close to Zan and/or potentially create an heir of royal blood. So Kivar, with Vilondra's betrayal of her brother, succeeded in defeating Zan.

Aside to this, some believed that Zan's second-in-command, Rath, would have been the better leader and could have resolved the conflict. But loyal Rath would not betray Zan.

In the end, the Royal Four were killed. (Since all four were killed, this makes me believe that Vilondra was a pawn in Kivar's plans.) Before capture and enslavement, Zan and Vilondra's mother still managed to gather enough resources to save the essences of her beloved children and their current and future spouses and send them to earth with "protectors" she believed she could trust. Kivar found out and immediately sent supporters (the Skins) after the them.

Kivar had rallied enough support to gain the throne. But once he acquired real power, his true colors began to show and he only magnified the problems that existed. He imposed slavery on those who opposed him and/or the "lesser classes/races." Kivar is an evil dictator that remains on the throne.

Yet, after time, Kivar knows that he will not maintain power forever--because he will die or because he fears the people will eventually defeat him in a new revolution. So, he realizes that he needs the revered granilith to earn this support and/or he needs Zan's true heir that Kivar can raise under his philosophies to carry out his reign. This happens about ten earth-years after the podsters were sent to Earth. Somehow Nacedo and Kivar communicate (via the skins?) and strike the infamous deal.

Nacedo knows he's being hunted by the FBI and the podsters aren't even hatched yet. He would have to wait until they were biologically mature enough to produce the required child. He also prepares to enact these plans by raising Tess separate from the other three, waiting patiently until it was time to introduce her to the others.
----------

Whew! Well, I'm sure there's plenty of holes in this theory. I've been reading about the histories of some Latin American countries where one leader gets replaced by another and then another through shifts in philosophy and rise and falls of power within the popular classes. The Antarian conflict seemed to make a little more sense with some of that background.

Feedback?

nermal:
But now in the current timeline since Tess has left again and this time with Max's son, won't the world end again?

She is with Khivar and knows everyone's strengths and weaknesses.

Max has gained nothing to stop his enemies.

Khivar will tear Earth apart to get at Max.

So someone convince me they are not doomed.

Sorry, no can do. It's worse than that. The Granolyth can be used as a Time Machine; we know that. Was Kivar so hot for it, because he knows it too? If so, then the Podsters are dead in their pods already.

Plus Kivar & Co. know the podsters from before; he knows them better than they do themselves. They also know where they live, go to school, etc. Kivar doesn't have to tear the Earth apart. (Which seriously shaped my fanfic, of course.)

Melodious 1, and others: Oh, and the whole Tess-is-evil / lets-make-a-deal thing makes no sense,
because Tess isn't evil, she's mindwarped by Nikolas! That line of thought makes so much more sense! For example, the "4 Square" symbol, the "Royal 4", etc.- there are supposed to be 4 Podsters!

Dreameratheart:
I totally agree. Mostly. I don't think it's necessary for Kivar to have Max's heir, except to destroy it. After 50+ years, you'd think he'd have gotten his own heir, right?

Just thought you folks may be interested. Of course, I also directed them to our conversation as well.

Reggie, [support of shameless plug] Yes, you do a good job of explaining CHADs. Hopefully, TPTB will take the hint.[/support of shameless plug]

Remember - is not an !

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

Thanks. If Roswell suffers by comparison to Buffy this fall,
we should make it plain to TPTB/UPN that we can fix it. Going to the Party?

Qfanny If it was a mindwarp, then why did they have the text at the bottom of the screen, identifying it as the future? They did similar things with flashbacks; why change now?

Iluvroswell:
Liz can't mindwarp. That talent has been so useful already, that the Pod Squad must have it. Used correctly, it would have diverted Grant while then-Sheriff Valenti searched. It did protect the Gang fron Nikolas, in the CD bathroom. Just two examples...

*River Dog-Liz goes up to the Indian Reservation and talks with Eddie and tries to find out as much as possible about the amulet they all found at Atherton's house. Michael makes the mistake of going down to visit River Dog himself and ends up getting sickened by the cleansing ceremony. The trip isn't in vain. Michale gets sick and quickly learns that he needs his friends in order to survive.
*Sexual Healing-Liz's flashes while kissing Max allowed them to locate the communicator which later enabled then to see the Momogram.
*EOTW-Liz's interaction with FMax teachs her that the Granolith can be used for something besides space travel; she is also able to warn Max against giving the Granolith to the Kivar in MITC.
*TWR-Liz talks to Valenti and convinces him to save Max from the government.
*EOTW-Liz's friend Serena is the person that figures out how to use the Granolith for time travel.
*Destiny-Liz makes Max human.
*MITC-Liz was able to contact Max (with the help of Izzy) and through that contact saved Max's life.
*CYN-Departure-Liz lead the investigation into Alex death and figured out that Tess was his killer. This discovery saved Max, Michale and Isabel's life.

The list goes on and on.

*~*~*~*~*
Knowing you has made me human. -Max in Destiny

[b]Qfanny If it was a mindwarp, then why did they have the text at the bottom of the screen, identifying it as the future? They did similar things with flashbacks; why change now?

[/B]

Why not?????? So, the three minute clip outst the FM was a mindwarp theory. I would rather that this be the CHAD of the show than the entire episode of Departure... Right??

Edited to say,

Remember - is not an

I won't be putting up the new Table of Contents until we get to the next "official" Thread #50, which we should get to sometime soon. But I wanted to give you a heads-up that the Intro is posted. There are still a few tweaks that need to be made to the smiley faces, but ... the words are there.

AND a special THANKS to Shapeshifter for posting the Intro, and doing the work on the pictures and smiley faces!!

Well - I have a lot of reading to catch up on - so Hi to all! and I will be joining in the discussions later!

I'm also hoping my avatar returns soon - or do I have to reload it after the crash??

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

BTW, the link to the updated Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology Thread is still at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology/intro.htm . A few smilies are still on vacation but if Nemo or anyone has time to make a list of typos, that would be helpful, and they will be fixed ASAP.

Qfanny, I have no problem with Mommogram being a mindwarp, but TEOTW just doesn't have that feel to it for me. I still think it was a sacrifice so great that we don't even yet know the full extent of it. Like maybe Liz had finally gotten pregnant just before TEOTW after many years of not being fertile.

~~ Now I've noticed as I've been reading the posts that some people believe that Future Max was all a mindwarp. Now I personally don't believe this. I believe he was in fact really. Now I'm not calling you "Future Max was a mindwarp" believers wrong...I'm just stating that I don't believe this to be so. I don't think we would have been shown Future Max in the future...and watching him come back to the past if he was a mindwarp. We would have just been simply shown another Max coming onto Liz's balcony outside her bedroom and going from there. But because we...the viewers were shown Max in the future..I don't believe Future Max to be a mindwarp.~~

Heidi

I like these

she also says that their essence was clonned and mixed with human DNA so that they could gain the wisdom and strength of not only who they used to be, but also of who they are as humans.

there is a part in destiny where Nesado tells Micheal "Humans are weak becuase they don't use their Brains to the fullest potential." or somthing like that.

he also says that is why they were cloned human, so that they could access huame capabilities and their alien capablites to their fullest potential, so that they would know and have superior knowledge above their enemies.
.The mother also tells them that as the grow to know them selves as aliens and humans, they will also grow to know the evil with in, meaning that they have to be super smart in order to fight against their enemies and free their people. ( basicly like saying get smarter so you don't get killed this time!:lol

Also, their enemies are and will forever be following them to earth. so they have two missions, keep earth safe, and free their home planet.

Well now with S2, they have three missions. that is if the baby was real. if not then they only have two. hehehe

If you don't belive me. just watch white room and destiny a few times it will all click.

Hurry!!!!! I feel so much better!!! Now I
know why they came to Earth!!!!!!!!!!! I watched destiny four times to figure that all out! I"m slowwwwwww Can't wait till season three!!

LV

yeahhhhhhhh I think we've got the reson why the podsters were sent to earth....nice work lucious

i can finally put my mind to rest.....for now at least

As we were dicusssing on the chad thread about the two nesado's,
I've noticed that when peirce is talkin to max bout nesado etc, he said that 2 were found dead and 2 were found alive.

and maybe the special powers needed to fight the skins are the human powers, thats why they were cloned into human form, and in the meantime the form acted as a disguise they were then sent to earth for protection untill they were ready to fight.

Queen Amidala01, Could you pretty please edit the first post of this thread to include the link to the Introduction to the Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology thread? Thank you. It's: http://ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology/intro.htm

And crazycat* , QueenA stepped up to start this thread during the Great Hacking of the Summer of 01 at which time there was no shred of a former thread left on the boards with which she could continue.

But, basically, as Zero says in the intro (see link above), anything is open for discussion here, because all plotlines lead back to Liz!

This was posted on Scifi.com. Sounds encouraging.

Roswell Returns To Earth

Shiri Appleby, star of the teen alien series Roswell, told SCI FI Wire that she's looking forward to a return to the central romance between alien Max and human Liz in the upcoming third season, when the show moves to UPN from The WB. In an interview, Appleby added that she agreed that the series' harder science-fiction edge last season may have alienated some of the show's core fans.

"I think one of the great aspects about the show was the love and the feelings and the fact that these characters felt so deeply over this science fiction aspect," Appleby said during UPN's fall preview for reporters in Pasadena, Calif. "And when you went too science fiction, you lost a lot of the emotion. So hopefully this year, with the UPN support, we'll be able to combine the two strengths, and the show will actually be able to blossom this year. The first season was great, but it was a lot of work, because it was only love story, which means it was me and Jason [Behr] working so many hours per day. And then second season, it was just the science fiction. So you were like wanting the emotion, versus in first season you were wanting more of a break from it, because it so emotional and it took so much out of you. And so I think this year [executive producer] Jason [Katims] is really focusing on, like, giving the audience both of it, so they can get involved in the craziness of it, but still feel for the characters."

Appleby said that it troubled her that the show shifted its focus from Liz and Max, played by Behr. "It bothered me to some degree, but at the same time, you acknowledge the fact that you're part of an ensemble show, and ... there's so many great characters and so many great actors, that it was wonderful for the audience to get a little bit of a taste of everything. And the show started off that way. And it came and went. ... It was sort of nice to have a break. But ... I think this season is going to be focused on Max and Liz getting back together, and their trials and tribulations, and the Isabel romance. I think there will be a lot of things going on, but I think the focal point will be the love between the two of them, finally." Roswell premieres on UPN at 9 p.m. ET/PT on Oct. 16.

And crazycat* , QueenA stepped up to start this thread during the Great Hacking of the Summer of 01 at which time there was no shred of a former thread left on the boards with which she could continue.

But, basically, as Zero says in the intro (see link above), anything is open for discussion here, because all plotlines lead back to Liz!

Ok, now I know more (after reading that site) so, thanks for the link

My take is that the royal seal is not transmitted the human way. That’s why Kvar wants Max back.
Max was admitted to the deal only because he was certified to be the King. What Kvar needs to crown himself King is the royal seal.
Ciao. Elena

Theory Two about EOTW: Why do we assume that FMax is telling PLiz the truth about Tess in the first place? Could it be that in the future storyline, Tess really stays in Roswell and becomes a trusted member of the group, even though Max and Liz do get married, etc. Perhaps, fourteen years in the future, Liz and Max are just finding out about the deal Nacedo made with Kivar. PTess in Departure tells PMax that the deal includes returning home with his child. Isn't it odd that she doesn't say "our" child? What if (fourteen years in the future) Tess hands over FLiz and Max's child instead, and this is the event that initiates the EOTW scenario? I know it sounds farfetched (but the writer's have done worse). This would help explain why future Liz and Max are willing to form and carryout such a drastic and life altering plan. I don't think they would ever even consider the possibility of PMax falling in love with Tess or (heaven forbid) fathering a child with her. This doesn't even touch on the issue of Alex's death, which would have caused great anguish for our future pair, if they could only have known. Of course Alex may be, as I believe Shapeshifter alluded to once before, the sacrificial lamb. In other words, his death spurs PLiz to action as she searches out the killer, ultimately leading a pathway straight to Tess and the revelation about the Nacedo / Kivar deal.

Sorry about the long post, especially considering that I have never posted before. I really enjoy this thread and hope to post again in the near future.

Merchez

I personally do NOT think that in TEOTW FM was a mindwarp. I tend to believe that he choose for whatever reason not to fully inform PL, and that Tess in scenario 1 left Roswell and fell in with the "bad" aliens - whomever they ultimately were. And the either FM & FL did not know what happened to Tess and assumed they needed her to "complete" the unit, OR knew that she fell in with the "wrong crowd" and thought it was their fault. In Scenario 2 - Liz is forced to grow! and Tess' deception is uncovered earlier than it would have been (if at all) otherwise. I guess we will all have to see what happens in Season 3??

Thanks QueenA for posting the link up front!

See you all later -
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Charmedkittn, where are you??? ARe you still planning on giving the Liz Myther's the Covina tour????

Post on the thread if you plan on coming too.

>snip<

quote:Theory Two about EOTW: Why do we assume that FMax is telling PLiz the truth about Tess in the first place? Could it be that in the future storyline, Tess really stays in Roswell and becomes a trusted member of the group, even though Max and Liz do get married, etc. Perhaps, fourteen years in the future, Liz and Max are just finding out about the deal Nacedo made with Kivar. PTess in Departure tells PMax that the deal includes returning home with his child. Isn't it odd that she doesn't say "our" child? What if (fourteen years in the future) Tess hands over FLiz and Max's child instead, and this is the event that initiates the EOTW scenario? I know it sounds farfetched (but the writer's have done worse). This would help explain why future Liz and Max are willing to form and carryout such a drastic and life altering plan. I don't think they would ever even consider the possibility of PMax falling in love with Tess or (heaven forbid) fathering a child with her. This doesn't even touch on the issue of Alex's death, which would have caused great anguish for our future pair, if they could only have known. Of course Alex may be, as I believe Shapeshifter alluded to once before, the sacrificial lamb. In other words, his death spurs PLiz to action as she searches out the killer, ultimately leading a pathway straight to Tess and the revelation about the Nacedo / Kivar deal.

Merchez

Hi merchez
I like your idea for your first theory. as for the second theory however, I have a bone to pick with ya...if that were the case with Fmax and Fliz...knowing the cause of TeoTW was 'a' Royal heir..why wouldn't he include this information to Liz? and why would it make more sense for him to pair of with Tess? If she was still going to turn traitor because of this plan... why would he be willing to give up his child? And as to it allowing Liz to reveal Tess' treachery...how would FMax known that? In the situation he was in, if he needed her to uncover tess' treachery, i would think he would have Liz know all of these things and have her uncover this nasty little secret right away..as opposed to getting him closer to the traitor. It doesn't make very much sense But as for the part of trusting FMax or not..I've asked myself why he should be trusted several times. I often wonder...what if there is something he did (other than driving Tess away) to cause all the chaos? what if it wasn't even him? I mean not quite a mindwarp...but an imposter. Isn't it possible that future Max could have been killed and a disguised double sent in his place to get close enough to the Granolith so that he could go back and carry out this plan? I know..my idea is pretty out there too... but we need answers to this screwy epi that we're just not getting yet!! ok..i tried. ciao!

BTW, in Max in the city, Ava said that because Max had saved Liz´s life, Liz have been changed. What was that..I mean, how has she changed? I don´t know, if you have allready discussed this thing (I bet you have ) but affects this somehow? I´ve seen thus far only epis till Roswell Christams Carol (living in Finland), so if something has happened after that, that connects to that "changing", THEN, please do not spoil
but if that was just a 'little thing', so no problem..
I just watched this epi on tape, and it made me wonder this..

ok, c u all! (I like this silverhand, it´s cool )

It may have only been something in their solar system. No one can live on a star (at least i don't think..who knows what strangely evolved life forms there are out there?) and i doubt that that star was their sun. but there might not have been a reason for the reps to mention it (i mean at that point a star in their solar system burning out would only concern them..right?)
however it still makes me wonder if there's some sort fo significant correlation between M&L and the star other than Liz's visions.

Welcome to all the newbies and lurkers!

Why do the Dupes and Tess have "memories"? Well, I figure it might be that they were all raised or exposed to their protectors/shapeshifters at a young age, and were "taught" how to recover memories, or they could be implanted memories by ??? M/I/M were all raised by humans - thus, more human because of it, and no reason or knowledge of how to "recover memories" - though I find this whole recovered memories a bit off. IF they can recover their Alien predecessor memories, THEN they should also be able to recover their Human predecessor memories. So, not only should Mikey G have some of the characteristics of Grandpa Dupree, but some of his memories!! OH the HORROR OF THE ALIEN EXPERIMENTS THAT THE HUMAN PREDECESSORS MUST HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO - THINK ABOUT RETRIEVING THOSE MEMORIES???

I'm soooo excited, my avatar showed up again!!!

Okay - back to work!!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Well, we never did find out just how much Ava knew about "Twilo", or when she hatched in relation to the others. Tess said her own memories were limited, and gotten through her foster father's memory exercises. It's possible that neither one knew much; or that Tess knew as much as the NY4, but Ava only knew what she'd been told. If true, it would support the switched-bride theory that Ava belongs with the NM4, and Tess with the NY4.

This is what comes of sloppy writing... <sigh>

IF they can recover their Alien predecessor memories, THEN they should also be able to recover their Human predecessor memories. So, not only should Mikey G have some of the characteristics of Grandpa Dupree, but some of his memories!! OH the HORROR OF THE ALIEN EXPERIMENTS THAT THE HUMAN PREDECESSORS MUST HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO - THINK ABOUT RETRIEVING THOSE MEMORIES???

OK, well: I will probably need a ride to La Taz and Covina- I have no idea where the hotel is, as I'm STILL WAITING for info!

The podsters memories are part of their soul or "essence"- which is a copy of their alien self's essence. They do not have any human "essence" in them, just the genetic material which defines their bodies.

So their alien memories should be available, if "Mom" and the engineers didn't edit them out. (I think they edited the memories out for the NM4, but left them in for the NY4.) There would be no human memories, because they were never human (except in this life, of course).

not for a while...

Okay, how is this for a spin, would people had still watched the show if the baby was Max and Liz's????

And then Kivar coming to get the baby, to destroy the real "heir"?

I mean, think about how Max and Liz could go fight for their child...

But would we still like it? Would we cry the "no teen pregnancy" card then???

Just curious....

As a dreamer fan...I would have to tell u that...yes, I would watch the show if the baby was Max and Liz's!!!

This is where I stand on the issue...my personal beliefs are that sex is suppose to go with the institution of marriage. So to have any couple have sexual relations while not married does go against what I believe! However...Max had a one night stand with Tess that resulted in a pregnancy! Max and Tess had no relationship build up at all and just came together to have sex...and now Max does not like her because of her actions and finding out what she is really about. This story disgusts me! I am in no way a hypocrite because I would say the same thing in reverse. Let's say Max and Tess was the relationship built up from the beginning but I wanted him still with Liz. It would still disgust me if she had been thrown together for a one night stand with Max! I don't agrue the "teen pregnancy" issue for this reason. There are responsible teen parents and there are responsible adult parents just like there are both teen and adult parents that are not responsible. It depends on the person. I believe in sex saved for marriage, not sex in adulthood...the problem is the set-up structure of our society makes it almost economically impossible for teen marriages or parents to surive!

Personally...I would like to see Max and Liz get married before they have sex. It is my opinion that it would be more special that way!

This has nothing to do with this particular topic...but I watched OFF THE MENU again the other night and something caught my attention! Did anyone else notice a body dashing away when Brody was being electrocuted? It happens really quick at about the same time Brody falls to the floor. You have to focus your attention in front of Brody on the screen and not Brody falling down to catch it! I don't know if it was done on purpose or not, but if someone else is able to rewatch this would u let me know if u see the same thing? I know there was discussion about how it was odd that Tess came around the corner instead of entering from the stairs! Maybe there is a possible connection to what happened to Brody after all! Let me know.

Heather

JOIN LizMyth for Covina lunch details

Email - LizMyth-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

The group is to get a number of attendees and so I can send directions/information in on mouse click. It is not a regular email group where anyone can post.

Personally...I would like to see Max and Liz get married before they have sex. It is my opinion that it would be more special that way!

Heather
Heather, thank you for your post. You and I see things much alike.

I think you've touched on something that is quite accidently, yet ironic. Roswell to me has always been a show that didn't have to resort to sex to show love. It was of a higher quality. I could overlook the Max/Tess premartial sex (and I am stressing the premartial portion here) because really, Max and Tess were married and they have been recreated into these new lives. I don't know if alien marriage contracts end with death - but the premartial part of the question was never really part of the question. The had sex. And it freaked me out to say the least.

If any couple on the show could get away (morally) with sex, it's Tess and Max. Yet, I can't think of anyone that just wasn't blown away in dismay. (sorry about the rhyme).

Now, when comparing Michael and Maria, some say it's ok because they really love each other. Well, they may really love one another, but morally, we are made to believe that their decision was faulty.

I don't think that the writers intended to draw such a contrast with the issue of morality as it pertains to adolescent sexuality. We're pissed at the couple that could have sex (morally) because we did have sex and we awed and cooed over the couple that had premartial sex.

This is probably an old soap opera device for plot lines, but it's no wonder that the youth of today are more sexually active than in generations past.

Interesting thoughts.

Heather

NLA, I agree that I thought it was COMPLETELY out of character,

First - Qfanny - Thanks for taking on the Saturday morning/brunch/lunch get-together details!! I really appreciate it!!

Heather and Qfanny - I have so many mixed fellings about the Tex and the M/M coupling. I agree - from a moral point of view - IF (AND THAT IS A BIG IF) Max and Tess had developed an intimate relationship based on the love they shared in their previous aliens lives, then I would probably have had little problem with it. Though I never liked the Tess character (sorry Reggie!) - except with Kyle in a humourous way - if their rediscovery of each other had been developed over the entire season in a consistent fashion, I might have been able to accept it. (Maybe! ) BUT (BIG BUT!), it wasn't, and this was the CLASSIC CASE OF REBOUND SEX if I ever saw it. The M/T relationship had the opportunity to have developed from TEOTW - but it didn't - and then out of the blue we get the "Stepford Max" Chronicles, with this FORCED M/T coupling when Max (who is acting totally out of character!!) decides he wants to "wake up" in a moment of total despire and desperation! Poor writing if you ask me - and alienating and disgusting to a huge portion of the fan base (mindwarp or not)!

Now - M/M coupling - well, I tend to agree with Reggie on this one (sorry if I'm misquoting you) - my BIGGEST problem with this sex was the fact that Mikey G WAITED to tell Maria that he was leaving until after the love-making. IF he had told her, and then they made love, morally I don't have a problem with that. To me, these were two committed people who due to circumstances beyond their immediate control would have thought they might NEVER see each other, and making love before that separation would be okay to me (though I'm also of the general opinion that sex should be between two committed people - preferable after marriage). The issue I had was that it all occurred prior to Maria's knowledge - and it sends a bad message all around.

Liz's make-out session with Sean was the only scene that made any sense to me in Departure. I could understand how out of a sense of desperation she might turn to him, only to come to her senses before it became too late and she regreted her actions. A natural rebound reaction given all she had been through in Season 2, but that didn't get out of hand because her good sense (which we all know Liz has LOTS of!!) finally gots the best of her.

Okay - I've rambled too much, but I just wanted to add my two cents!

Oh and Reggie - I agree - IF the Hybrids were only given the "essence" - depending on how you define that - of the aliens, that they would not have human memories, BUT we do not know "for sure" how the Hybrids were created, and what all was contributed from the Human donors. We know that human DNA was used, but ... the humans may have contributed other "aspects" of their being in order to make the Hybrids work. We just don't know - AND I find the Human element of the Hybrids fascinating and intriquing. (ALso - the "Why?" behind the use of Human donors!) I just wish the Hybrid Chronicles had handled it better, AND told us MORE!! I want to read Grandpa Dupree's journal!

Okay - it's late, and I still have a proposal to finish for work, so later all!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

personally, i would prefere max and liz to wait until they marry, too. and i applaud liz for being upset when fmax said that they do cementing and liz vehemently stating she's not ready. there are different levels of love. maria and mike are on one level and max and liz are probably on another level. the beautiful thing about liz and max (before they destroyed it w/ that one night stand w/ tess) is that they really loved one another and there didn't need to be sex to show that. it was deeper... "they saw into each others' souls" and when max found out that kyle only got to 2nd base... max had said something in the lines of too bad. some foreshadowing to their relationship.

i'm definitely not ready to see liz and max hit the sheets. there are too many issues between them that need to be resolved. to have them do it w/o working things out... just cheapens it for me.

just my 2 cents. sorry for that rambling.

Sure...it's from a story that is where my nickname is derived from. it means:

At the coming of twilight I invited him to return with me--! Now to sleep alone in the shadow of the rushes of Akanuma--ah! what misery unspeakable!

err...it makes more sense when you've read the story It's a good read...try googling for it(it's by the author Lafcadio Hearn)
oki hope that helps!

Joan's notes

Bigspam's pictures

quote:Originally posted by shaiwon72:
well... there were definitely mixed messages that were put through (from liz and maria confessing that they were still virgins to 4 characters having sex on the show) last season. ...
shaiwon72 and others with the same sentiments:
I see a moral consistancy throughout. For instance, in SH, Liz gets weird rashes as a result of fooling around, and then, the ultimate end of their decisions to follow their urges is the unearthing of the Mommogram which turned out to be what could be called the greatest Pandora's Box ever beheld in fiction.
Then, we learn in EOTW that Liz & Max cemented premaritally, and the end result was (14 years later) the end of the world. Similarly, when Max and Tess do it, pregnancy and tragedy result--the necessity of keeping the alien baby a secret is just an illustration of what it is really like emotionally for an unmarried teen mother--and the pregnancy certainly shows the possible consequences of teen sex.
I don't think the final chapter is in anyway written on Michael and Maria's cementing, but if it follows the above examples, well... ...poor M&M! May they take the whole summer to repent and seek spiritual fogiveness lest Madame Vivian's prediction come true!

BTW, if there's any question as to Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology, just recall that she was the one who had to change to prevent the End Of The World.

QueenAmidala--nice pickup on the 5:47 in White Room I missed that one!!!

LParkerfan--nice thoughts on the changes after Nasedo/Tess arrival--ITA!!!

I also agree with Zero and many others on Max's actions being totally out of character for him in the last several episodes, and Zero I agree, Liz seeking solace from this nightmare in the arms of Sean temporarily was understandable but she remained TRUE to her character and PULLED BACK---so whats the story with Max---well I am still holding out that he was mindwarped or something similar to this--he was acting too UNMAXLIKE--there has to be a satisfying explanation at some point!!!!I hope!!!!

GrhmLz--Yes we discussed this very shadow right after OTM aired---I forget who it was that first noticed this?????? Whoever it was come forward and take credit, but the shadow of a person is definitely there--now who was this shadow, was it Tess? Or someone else? We still don't know. I guess with the revelations in Departure we can say well it was ALL TESS---but I am not sure I believe this--I think she is a part of it but I for one do not believe she is/was working alone.

He was "convinced" as another poster used that word, that this was it...since everything "seemed" to be working out like Tess said it was suppossed to, I think at that point, Max felt like maybe then it's true...

Like LIz and Max were still together, loyally hand-in-hand, even after Max told her about Tess in Destiny...but it was until the Mom-ogram, when Liz felt like, well maybe we can't be together...hence her running away...

So I think that Max had gave up, and followed "destiny", I mean everything was gone that he really cared about...i.e. Liz..

BUT, he does not love Tess..I think he might had been thinking about the past life, and that's why he said, not like I love you...not saying that he really loves her now...but maybe he remembered how he loved her in the past???? But not like he loves Liz???

See, this is what I think...I think that Liz Parker is Max Evans soulmate...hence because they are different people now and Max is a different person, yet the revised version of King Zan...

So King Zan may have loved Queen Ava, but that does not mean that Max will love Tess...because we all know that Tess does not love Max...I think she is going off of past memories, but you can't love somebody that you were going to take to their own death...you can't because she had nothing to bargain with nesedo is she refused...so she did it willing and able...

But my point is, that Liz is the one for Max Evans...not necessarily for King Zan because it's just like Tess said...before you were a King, now your just a boy...Tess thinking that Max would fall in love with her again, couldn't accept that...because she knew that Max still loved Liz, even till the very second in DeParture, hence her comment, "why couldn't you feel that way about me?"

Now I kinda understand Max's comment to Liz a little more...because Tess knew that Max felt nothing for her, Tess Harding in the present..hence her anger at him and her calling Liz a bitch, she always felt that Liz was in the way of her accomplishing her mission.

Becuase if she could had convinced Max to be with her, it would had been alot easier to get him back to Antar, and he would had been dead a lot sooner.....getting pregnant quickly, stepped up the notch...especially when him and LIz on the outs, it was the perfect time for Tess's deception...and she jumped on it!

So Liz has saved his life in more ways than one...

And maybe by getting with Tess, yet again they are repeating their mistakes, or history, becuase we still don't know how the the Royal Four died????/ she remembers their love, but doesn't remember their deaths??? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.................

I just think that in THIS LIFE, Max Evans is meant to be the leader...destiny is not controlled by aliens on another planet, it's controlled by a higher power, that is what I think the aliens, need to realize, that things are sometimes controlled by a higher power...hence meeting Liz, knowing Liz, loving Liz, and getting Liz into his life.

Maybe Max is meant to be the Leader, and Liz is meant to fight by his side, and Tess, Nesedo, and any other alien-enemy couldn't let go of that...

You can't move on into the future, living in the past...clearly in my head, Liz is meant to fight by his side...regardless...

But then, that's just me

Btw.This connection between ufo's and nazis from 1930-1936 is mention in some website what I found.I share with you what connections I found.
(quote from Zero intro)
1935 - Picture of Michael’s DNA donor, Charles Dupree (Hybrid Chronicles)
1936 (approximately) - Charles Dupree, Mikey G’s DNA donor, begins to be abducted (Scarlet Moon)
(quote from this website)
1933 -- A profusion of German 'tourists' swarm over the southwestern United States, buying land, checking mineral rights and also exploring caves and caverns. This was discovered during a background check on some of the cities [and newspapers] in New Mexico
*
The Vril Society members were supposedly the first group to attempt the back-engineering of an extraterrestrial spacecraft. "A German writer, John Von Helsing, describes the discovery of a crashed saucer in the Black Forest(Schwartzwald) in 1936 and says that this technology was taken and combined with the information the Vril Society had received through channeling and was made into a further project called the Haunebu," German aircraft historian Henry Stevens says: Haunebu 1 was supposedly the first large flying saucer developed in Germany.
All what they write matches with your theory
Mel1 and here this link is: http://members.tripod.com/~J_Kidd/nazi.html
and this too: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2301/german.html

yes, I know - all ufo stuff must be taken with grain of salt... but this was funny how all this.......ok - silly me!

Yes, Tess did seem to be of two minds in that scene. On the one hand, she wants Max's love; yet she is betraying him. She complains that he isn't a King; yet she is working with his enemies to insure that he isn't King. I keep saying it: she's been mind-warped to believe that there is a Plan, and she must follow it.

Underneath the MW, I believe that she thinks that the Zan she loved would be able to thwart the Plan and rescue her. Hence, she tries to build Max up to be the beloved King Zan he was... but he isn't. Hence her frustration.

I cover this in my fanfic, Departure, Part 2.

So I leave you with an image of Liz from MITC where she is certainly being very important. And Nemo & GraceKel, what's up with those lights?

I cover this in my fanfic, Departure, Part 2.

I read your fanfic and it is very good. After being on the run all her live, Tess seemed very desperate to get home. Remember, Michael was that way at first. So much in fact, he risked everything in trying to find Nasedo. The dupes also seemed to feel that way.
I think Tess's desperation could have been easily used by Nicholas. It wouldn't take mindwarping to get her to help in exchange for information.

Remember - is not an !

I think the key to remember is that just because Lix and Max didn't "cement" at the time they "originally" had (pre-EOTW) - it doesn't mean they CAN'T now. FMax said that they needed T to not leave after that evening.. well, she didn't and things have changed since that (post-EOTW) - new scenario. What makes it so Liz's reading can't still be correct.. he chooses love? And.. the wedding image? Again, what makes it so this can't happen NOW? Nothing!

Also - Shapeshifter - have a great trip and thanks for leaving that image of Liz - it is a great scene!! And so relevant to her importance - too bad we haven't seen her use or develop her "powers" or "gifts" since - at least that we know of.

I won't be around much this weekend, so you all have a great one, and I will try to swing by at some point to check on things!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Yes it's me!! Popping into say hello! How are all my fellow RBI'ers doing this fine summer? Sorry I haven't been around to play, but I've been really busy w/a new job and hectic life. I hope to be back on a more regular basis once the season starts, cause let's face it, I can't stay away.

Hope you are all doing well!!!

Zero -- amazing job on revising the intro. I don't know how you do it, but it's SO appreciated.

[Taken from Zero's IntroI believe it was Nemo who posted "The Symbolism and Spiritual Significance of the Number Five” which may be found at - http://www.greatdreams.com/five/five.htm .
Actually, it was me!!

Smiles,
{~}:}
Meta

Everyone have a fun weekend!! Mel - I'll be watching Farscape tonight!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Enjoy!

Notice also the 3 + 1 pattern in the lights on Valenti's car (at the power plant in Surprise).

This one reminded me of our color speculations last season. Especially in Destiny, where Valenti, in his cruiser, says to Michael that there's a right side and a wrong side, while the camera is showing the orange and blue lightbars on the roof. Shortly before this, in the old mine, there are two lanterns, one bluish, the other closer to orange, and everyone except Tess walks downstairs on the blue side....

Good point. I'm assuming that (as Mr. Harding said in WR, and as was further described in THC) that the "hybrids" are basicly human, with a tiny bit of alien DNA. Given that, the intricate set of hormone balances necessary to maintain a pregnancy should be fully human. Why re-engineer something, when the built-in mechanisms work so well?

Also, such tests are urine-based rather than blood-based. Since we have no info that their urine is different; it should work just as well for a "hybrid" as a human.

If Max can "feel" the baby (IMHO, a mindwarp of the hallucination variety), then a dreamwalk by Isabel would be, too. In fact, what Isabel senses are dreams: If Tess dreams she's pregnant... is that real?

After being on the run all her live, Tess seemed very desperate to get home. Remember, Michael was that way at first. So much in fact, he risked everything in trying to find Nasedo. The dupes also seemed to feel that way.
I think Tess's desperation could have been easily used by Nicholas. It wouldn't take mindwarping to get her to help in exchange for information.

No, but remember Tess loved her Zan. She still hero-worships Max: look how she's his yes-man so often. I think that for her, "home" is where "Zan" is, just as Isabel said "home" is where Max is, and Michael implied that his "home" was with Maria.

This has always been a story about alienated teens, and the search for "home". Michael was looking for a home elsewhere, since Hank didn't provide one. IMHO, had the podsters treated Tess more warmly the first Time, she wouldn't have left: she'd have found her home with them. It was significant that, at the end of MitC, Tess says she wants to go "home"... to Roswell. From that moment, she's no longer looking. She's been alienated, but from the Aliens she's met in NYC. Jim Valenti is looking like a real "Dad" to her, and Kyle is a brother or boyfriend. This is part of what makes the "bargain" so unbelievable: she can't "go Home"... she IS home.

I vaguely remember saying this, but....I don't think that Liz is an alien. Liz's importance stems directly from her relationship with Max. They have a deep connection. Yeah, Max has made a LOT of bad choices in S2, but the best decision he ever made was saving Liz Parker's life. Someone said earlier on the thread that one of M/M/I's mission was to protect Earth. : In order to protect Earth each of them have to have a stake it in. Max has Liz; Izzy has her parents and Max and Michael; Michael has Maria; Tess didn't have anything. In the Pilot Max tells Michael that he is tired of hiding; that he doesn't want to keep their true identity a secret any longer. He revealed who he really was to Liz. In Destiny he tells Liz that knowing her has made him human. Max, Isabel, Michael and Tess were sent to Earth for a reason. The aliens on Antar believed that they could be made stronger by mixing their essence with human DNA. It wasn't just meant as a disguise. Liz has played a big role in their survival on Earth. Yes, it is true that Max drew attention to himself by healing her, but it was necessary. Not so much for Liz's sake, but their sake. The best way to learn about being human, is by being with and around humans (I mean if you can't actually [/I]be[/I] a human). Before healing Liz the Podsters were isolated. They kept to themselves and tried to be invisible. When Max healed Liz he pushed Michael and Isabel into the world of humans. Before then they were just visitors.

It was through connecting with a human that Max found the orb that allowed him to communicate with the Momogram. It was Liz that went to Valenti in WR to save Max from Pierce. She was the first person to figure out that his cells were different from hers and later risked her friendship with Alex in order to keep Max's secret when he ended up in the hospital. She sacrificed her future with Max to save the world. She investigated countless things with Max [/B]for[/B] Max. She figured out who killed her best friend and thereby saved max, Michael and Isabel's life.

Michael differs from Max and Isabel in that he never wanted to embrace his human side; he wanted to pretend it didn't exist. Michael's character has developed quite a bit in S3. Who would have thought that Michael wouldn't want to got home? Not me.! I thought he'd jump on the first ship outta here. Michael decided to stay because he had finally found a home in Maria. Michael would have never become involved with Maria if Max hadn't healed Liz and Liz hadn't been friends with Maria. (I don't mean to offend any M/M lovers )

Isabel on the other hand wanted to be human. She embraced it. It hurt her that she couldn't tell her parents who she really was. Izzy also wanted to know her true mother. Again, Liz helped Max find the communicator; Iz gets to see her mommy.

Tess' main goal was always to return home. Liz was a problem for her from the minute she landed.

Some would say that if Liz hadn't become involved with Max and then brought Alex into the club, he might be alive today. To some extent that is true but....Nasedo would have found the Podsters eventually. They would have found a way home and would have promptly been killed by their enemies. Alex's death saved Max, Michael and Isabel's and quite possibly the world (if things turn out okay now that the Killer Klown from space has returned home :lol. If Liz hadn't figured out that Tess had something to do with Alex's death Max, Isabel and Michael would have returned home and been killed.

It's been made clear that the fate of Antar doesn't lie in the Podsters returning home, but growing strong here. Defeating their enemies on Earth before returning to Antar. As we learned in EOTW, their enemies defeated them on Earth first. Antar isn't the only planet in danger; Earth is also. The responsibility of protecting Earth and Antar lies in the hands of the leaders of the Pod Squad: Max and Liz. love:

I hope I didn't ramble....I mean, I did have a point.

____
Drug of choice: Roswell.

Liz: So when you healed me you risked all of this getting out didn't you?
Max: yea.
Liz: Why?
Max: It was you.

And talking about the pregnancy, it’s really a pity that Max didn’t ask Maria or Liz’s advice, he only went to Iz that surely is trapped in her alien world and didn’t help him much.

But I understand why Max didn’t do it, as I sense that even if Liz in CYN gave him another of hers “go ahead” with Tess, he felt that the Tex and the baby were events against Liz.

Still I’m sure that if he went to Liz for advice, she would have suggested him to: go to Tess and make this very simple request: Tess, darling, I agree that we should go back home to save our son but, since it’ll be a long journey, I’d feel better if you made an “echograph”. It’ll give us an exact idea of how’s the baby and also, you know, this echograph it’s such a great thing, we will even know immediately if the baby looks all human of if it's going to look a little alien. And if it'll look a bit alien, with one of your MWs MIs we will go away in time to get on board. Tess, it’ll only delay your schedule of a couple of hours.

I understand that this is way too logical, nothing like Roswell. And may be, this not being logical keeps us on this board every day talking about loose ends.
Ciao. Elena

If any couple on the show could get away (morally) with sex, it's Tess and Max. Yet, I can't think of anyone that just wasn't blown away in dismay. (sorry about the rhyme).

Now, when comparing Michael and Maria, some say it's ok because they really love each other. Well, they may really love one another, but morally, we are made to believe that their decision was faulty.

I don't think that the writers intended to draw such a contrast with the issue of morality as it pertains to adolescent sexuality. We're pissed at the couple that could have sex (morally) because we did have sex and we awed and cooed over the couple that had premartial sex.

We think together, but we seem to disagree.
I was indeed shocked by the M/T sex. I did see that it was "moral", in that they were married at one point. One could argue that Tess through the series (up to the last 15 minutes ) has had a very strong commitment to Max. (I regard that as further evidence that she would not betray him of her own free will.) Max has no such commitment, but being a stand-up kind of guy would stick by her anyway. That's not what makes it OK; it's the fact that they were married. He had given consent in the past life, and had not (properly) withdrawn it.

"Till death do us part?" Well, that's ambiguous- they don't look dead, much. I think that at this point they could resume the marriage or walk away; no foul either way. But they can't do both.

The M&M sex was much worse, for me. I neither cooed nor awed. As I said before, for Michael not to tell her he was leaving was (almost) inexcusable. Setting her up with the romantic setting, and the "flashes", was too much like "sweeping her off her feet"; too much like getting her drunk first. Informed consent is the honorable way.

Mind you, I do acknowlage the old tradition of a woman "giving herself" to her beloved, before he goes off to war. This was (for example) a major plotline on Upstairs, Downstairs several decades ago. The setting was WW I; but I'm sure the tradition goes back to the Greeks. Had Michael been "off to war", from which he might not return, and had Maria known that it would have been reasonable. Not (quite) OK, but acceptable.

But the "built-in mechanisms" didn't work well enough to have an alien/hybrid baby in the human 9-month gestation period.

I agree with your recent post about the Tex and M&M coupling. I really don't like the Tex and hope it's a mindwarp, but more and more I'm thinking that it's likely to be real, so I'm going to have to find a way to rationalize it. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed on the baby--it can't be real! It just can't be!

We still don't know why they're specifically on Earth.

Last year made their alien side look more important, but it was their alien side that lost to Khivar.

And if they were sent here to connect with humans, what advantage will that give them? Allies? Or just a buffer between them and Khivar?

I remember someone saying in one of their posts, that Max,isabel,micheal,and tess. ARE HUMAN genteticaly speaking. Nesado said that that was why they were cloned humane, becuase of the great advantages of the humane mind,and how that humans only use 10 % of it blah blah blah

Here is my theory. In fact, these hybrids are prespectivly human with the "supposed essence"( meaning memory of a spirit. or how ever you would like to translate it) is alien/mixed blood.
The point of their mission on earth is to devlope the humane half of their mind so as to gain wisdom, while at the same time remembering who they once were in order to save earth from their enemies following them, and Antar from being enslaved ect..ect..

I was watching sexual healing today, and I got a click in my head when Liz tells max
"I think it (the hicky being burned on her skin) burned becuase she thought possiably they had been apart to long.

I started to think.. why the hell is she getting flashes? I then thought, maybe becuase the closer they became the more her(liz's) "brain capcity will grow and advance its self and maybe at one point be almost like an equal where powers are concerned. (kind of like the movie "POWDER"
but becuase of how things turned out in season 2, Liz was not able to.

I guess this isn't really theory but a good possiable story line.
I hope i didn't confuse anybody. I just thought that Liz having powers would be something fun to explore and play with. I do know that people are sick and tired of the sci fi aspect of the show but to me it's like "HELLO" this is a show dealing with ALIENs! People need to set their frame of mind in to fantsy mode and not complain if not everything makes the most sense. it's not supposed to.

Thats mt two cent's anyway

LV

We still don't know why they're specifically on Earth.

Last year made their alien side look more important, but it was their alien side that lost to Khivar.

And if they were sent here to connect with humans, what advantage will that give them? Allies? Or just a buffer between them and Khivar?

quote:Originally posted by nermal:
Killer Klown from Outer Space?

We still don't know why they're specifically on Earth.

Last year made their alien side look more important, but it was their alien side that lost to Khivar.

And if they were sent here to connect with humans, what advantage will that give them? Allies? Or just a buffer between them and Khivar?

You're right, we don't really know why they were sent here, but we've been given clues. It seems clear that Liz balances Max and makes him a better leader. Maybe she is the reason they were sent here; she is the missing piece and is essential to their survival? The problem is that we don't know what went wrong with Zan and Ava as the leaders of Antar or why they choose to clone their essence with human DNA. In the world of Roswell there are quite a few species: humans, Podsters, shapeshifters, and skins. I remember someone on another thread asking if Brody was the same species as M/M/I/T. Because they are aliens I will assume that it isn't just us and them in the universe. There has to be other life forms on other planets. My point is that they could have mixed their essence with anyone. Why did they choose us? Why our DNA? What is so special about us? They aren't competing in the Olympics. They are fighting for the survival of their planet. There has to be a reason beyond hiding out that they were sent here. The Momogram just scratches the surface. Perhaps their essence was mixed with our DNA in order to give them some human qualitites. Like, love, kindness, strength, etc.

I also think that the battle against the skins (and any other enemies that land in S3) isn't just for the freedom of Antar, but for the safety of Earth also (according to FMax).

Liz: Why are you here?
FMax: I can't tell you too much, Liz...only what you need to know...but 14 years from now, we are taken over by our enemies.
Liz: Uh, who's taken over?
FMax: Everyone. Earth.

*~*~*~*~*~*

Good afternoon. My name is Lesse Ortecho. (Hi, Lesse Ortecho!) My drug if choice is Roswell.

Thanks.

I know this theory has been introduced before... but I was considering it again today for whatever reason. What if Tess is Kivar? Meaning Kivar could possibly be a female and not male. I know this is a difficult theory to back-up considering all the *male* references to Kivar in S2, but I do think it's *very* intriguing.

Which would of course make me think that the tex and product thereof are all mindwarps (or not)... Kivar just needed a method to get the royals (which conveniently ended up being just the King and Vilandra... arguably, Michael would have been left behind - only to be killed by Nikolas, again. History repeating itself?) back to Twilo.

Tess basically came into the group *through* Isabel - Isabel trusted her first. Tess also said something on the lines to Iz that she felt "connected" to Iz or something (and wasn't that scene almost oozing with sexual tension? I almost felt like T was about to kiss Iz). Isabel "trusted" Tess first because Isabel saw the Kivar in Tess?

SURPRISE.... Whitaker reveals to Iz the whole Vilandra controversy (and of course, refers to Kivar as a male). Could Whitaker have *known* (or learned) what Tess was when she abducted her? Hence Whitaker referring to Kivar as male was all part of some ruse between CW and Tess aka Kivar? SURPRISE, the ep Tess contacted Isabel calling for help hence Isabel running to save her. The same ep Isabel learns (or believes) she slept with the enemy in her past life (the same ep she saved Tess - unbeknownst to her, she helped Kivar?)

I know there are plenty of holes in this theory and I need to ponder it some more. If the writers went this route; I'd definitely be interested.

Melodious

Ooo, that's a very interesting idea, Melodious, and one that I hadn't heard before. I'll have to ponder that one.

I posted this on the "Season 1 discussion thread" a few days ago, but no one has addressed it there. I thought that maybe one of you RBIers might be more qualified to answer? Here goes--

Rewatching Four Square shortly after rewatching Blind Date made me pick up on something that I missed last year (maybe because this was the first time I'd seen the episodes in order). Did anyone else notice that the symbol on the destiny book that Tess pulled out of the Ancient Languages section of the library was the same symbol that Michael burned on the library lawn? Does this mean that Michael's interpretation of the cave map lead Tess and Ed Harding to the destiny book? I'd always assumed that Tess knew it was there all along, but maybe not?

Dreamer this is not this V-formation but...
Like we know (Liz from FS)this V-formation is in Aries constellation.
About Aries....I found one myth about it:

I posted this on the "Season 1 discussion thread" a few days ago, but no one has addressed it there. I thought that maybe one of you RBIers might be more qualified to answer? Here goes--

Rewatching Four Square shortly after rewatching Blind Date made me pick up on something that I missed last year (maybe because this was the first time I'd seen the episodes in order). Did anyone else notice that the symbol on the destiny book that Tess pulled out of the Ancient Languages section of the library was the same symbol that Michael burned on the library lawn? Does this mean that Michael's interpretation of the cave map lead Tess and Ed Harding to the destiny book? I'd always assumed that Tess knew it was there all along, but maybe not?

Interesting question....I never thought about it that way. I always thougt that the symbol was just a common symbol that Michael used would summon Nasedo. I think that Tess and Nasedo planted the destiny book in the library in order to get the Pod Squads attention. Remember, she made a big deal of going to the library with Kyle so that Max and Liz would follow her. She must have know where it was. We didn't know anything about the book before this and she may have found it in the pod chamber since Nasedo knew where the chamber was.

Only...if they had been to the pod chamber they must have known about the granolith. Why didn't they just use it to get home? The only reason I can think of is because they needed to ensure that they wouldn't be killed by Kivar be turning over M/M/I. Whitaker specifically asked Isabel for the granolith. Why didn't Nasedo turn it over in oder to save his life? According to Tess he made the deal. Perhaps they killed him in becasue they knew that the success of the mission (getting M/M/I back to Antar) lied within the hands of Tess, not Nasedo.

Sorry, I'm rambling. i just have a lot of questions. The bottom line is that I believe that Tess and Nasedo had the book to begin with and used it to entice Max, Michael and Isabel.

*~*~*~*~

Hi. My name is Lesse Ortecho. (Hi, Lesse Ortecho!) My drug of choice is Roswell.

I originally thought that it was just a common symbol too. But then when I was rewatching Four Square, I noticed that Isabel's explanation to Max about how Michael had navigated the symbols on the cave map implied that each symbol represents a specific place (like the pod chamber and the library). Then I noticed that the destiny book had the same "library" symbol on its cover.

Of course, if Ed Harding was the same Nasedo who stayed on the reservation, then he was the one who drew the cave map in the first place & he would probably have known the meaning of all of the symbols already. So that would definitely imply that he and/or Tess planted the book in the library.

Okay, I'm giving myself a headache...

Hey everyone...I know I haven't been around in awhile...just been busy and looking into some other threads!

Well...I just wanted to comment and say that I happen to disagree with this part of the posting! Obviously...Reggie has interpreted the facts this way. However, I didn't. Before I explain my reasoning, let me just clearly state I don't think either one of us is wrong. For me...the show has not given a detail by detail step account on how the podsters were engineered. We don't know for sure how much or how little of the human and alien Dna matter was used. Then take the issue dealing with "souls" and personal beliefs on this...and then interpreting the process becomes really sticky! I don't think the show will ever give a detailed account because the writers know there is no one answer to satisfy an entire audience. They have very cleverly given a few facts for the audience to formulate their own ideas how they came to physically be in their new life on earh!

Now here is how I interpret the show. The podsters are not human they are still alien. A soul exists before a body ever does. Which means their soul is of an alien lifeform not of a human lifeform. The past life story would make no sense than because they would be completely different people! On earth...they are now existing as "alien" hybrids not "human" hybrids! As an example...a human Hybrid would be like having my body reengineered so I can live again! Say my new cloned body had half alien dna matter engineered into it so I can access alien powers! My soul is of a human origin not an alien origin! My soul would reenter this new body. I would be a type of "human" hybrid! Hybrid means of "two species" so the theory that they only had a little alien DNa entered into them and they are more human makes no sense to me. Their body is Hybrid...they still have their soul from their alien origin! That is what having a past life and being reincarnated means! It means to have once lived and to live again....only in new PHYSICAL FORM. The lifeform will always remain itself when passing from new body to new body in each new life...whether reborn or engineered!

Now I already know Reggie disagrees with me on a lot of what I am about to say! As for the episode in the WHITE ROOM...I am perfectly aware that Max's outer body and organs are all human...but his blood (which is determined by DNA) is alien! If they were a hybrid in the natural order (1 human parent + 1 alien parent) the DNA would be mixed, regardless of what feature is dominant..the recessive can still be found in the DNa (Ex...when a paternity test is done, the child may have taken on a physical appearance that resembles the mother more..however the DNa TEST will still find the dna the child shares with the father. It's just that the dna matter was recessive and doesn't show..but it can still be found in the body) However...there is no Human recessive Dna found in Max's blood! It is all ALIEN. Therefore...they have Hybrid bodies in a different way...through cloning!
Michael's human body was cloned from the body of Laurie Dupree's Grandfather. The grandfather's body was not a hybrid body! You can only clone Dna u had to start with to get the exact duplicate! Which means the alien DNA had to be cloned as well before it was combined! Which is why I believe that the "alien mom's " message of "your essence was cloned" means their alien bodies were cloned as well. I don't believe "essence" is the soul because you cannot physically clone something that is abstract or translusent in nature! And a soul is! So I believe they are hybrids because they are using both an alien body and a human body at the same time. This is still using a body of "two species." One is just on the outside...while the other is on the inside! This explains Max's lack of any human Dna...recessive or dominant...detected in Max's blood! Because the blood is all alien running in the inside alien body! This would go for the reproductive system as well. There is all alien DNa in there to pass on.(aka...max and Tess' baby) No cloning happened here to give the child human DNa in a body! The outer physical appearance and organs are a part of the human body! They were engineered to have the two cloned bodies grow in unison from the fetus stage.

As far as the "powers" and whether they are human or alien. I think they come from both! However...the podsters are of alien origin and that is how they still have access to their powers. I interpreted Nasedo telling Michael that the powers can be human as well! The reason humans don't use them is because they can't...only because they don't use all of their mind power!

Thanks for listening...sorry it is so long...just needed to explain my interpretation of the facts!! Bye for now everyone!

Heather

estherterrestrial, Yes! There must be a connection between the book and the library and the "Saturn" symbol. I've put together the information that I have found on each of the cave map symbols including the "Saturn" symbol on my website: Symbols and Text of the Cave Map and Destiny Book. I'm sure you'll find it interesting to read. Shapeshifter also has a page about some of the symbol discussion at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/symbol.htm .

Thank you, DreamerAtHeart! I did find your website interesting to read. I like the idea that you had about Michael causing the destiny book to appear at the library by willing it into existence & thereby setting off a chain of events that allowed the podsters to discover more about themselves.

With the perspective of Season 2 and Tess' apparent inability to read the destiny book, I really do think that Michael unknowingly helped some of the "evil aliens."

P.S. And yes, that maze-like symbol does look a lot like the UN emblem!

That's a representation of the Solar System, with planets and partial orbits drawn in. Notice Saturn, and its rings, in the lower right part.

Warning: Mini-Dreamer-Rant Ahead!

Love like that CANNOT be denied! Max and Liz belong together! It must have been a mindwarp that would cause Max to go against all of his feelings that he has had for Liz for years to then engage in Tex! I am reminded again of exactly the feelings that got me hooked from day one. I'm so glad there's a Season 3 ! I would've cried every day this summer if they had just left us with a granilith launch and no hope for the future! Long Live Roswell! Max & Liz Forever!

Okay. I feel better now. I'm still waiting for some Season 1 tapes so I can see some of the eps I haven't watched since their original airdate. Roswell is so addictive!

estherterrestrial and Reggie, It may be a galaxy, a solar system, or just an image of the mess left after a spaceship crashes, but it still reminds me of the UN symbol. That similarity reminds me of the "summit" in MITC.

I sent an email to the email address you listed somewhere on this thread , but haven't heard. What's the deal? I'd love to meet up with you guys, but I won't have a car, so I just wanted to find out the details!

Either way.. I'll be seeing you at the Dreamer Dinner, Zero!

Either way.. I'll be seeing you at the Dreamer Dinner, [b]Zero! [/B]

Steph - I'm going to PM you, but the e-mail listed probably went to Qfanny who is coordinating it. But we will figure something out to get you out there!! And YES you will see me at the Dreamer Dinner!!

Dreamer at Heart - isn't the Pilot wonderful!! I was disturbed recently by comments that JK made (DON'T WORRY - NO SPOILERS!) about what made Roswell so addictive to so many - and he points to the Pilot and how it had a group of "out-siders" that the fans can relate to. (He has said something like this before about the fan base.) WRONG!! It was the relationship and special connection between Max and Liz that caught my attention - and I think what caused the obsession in many. I worry he doesn't "get it"! He thinks we are a bunch of loners without lives out-side the mainstream, that identify with the "alienation" aspects of the "out-siders" in the story. Now, that might describe many of the fans, (and is an element of the show that is interesting) but does NOT describe most that I have met. Most I've "met" are typical, and very interesting, people, that fell for the quality and specialness of the connection between Max and Liz, the funny give and take between Mikey G and Maria, the unlikely though endearing relationship between Iz and Alex, the specialness of the friendship between Liz, Maria and Alex, and the possibilities because Max, Iz and Mikey G were aliens! Romance, Relationships and Sci-Fi all combined! If I want soap opera, I can find plenty of it, but I don't want that, and that was why I fell for Roswell!!How can he not get this??

Mel - Yes - caught Farscape!! Really enjoy this show, though I'm still catching up on it all! The bickering between Criton and the big guy (name?) crack me up! I love Aeryn, but - spacing her name right now, but the woman in black and white and grey - is my favorite character so far! She makes me laugh, and I love her costume!

Well - off to that "real life" that keeps calling!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN! (Now there is a triangle I can deal with and accept!)

[disclaimer]This theory may have been posted before. I can't remember and if it was your theory, I'm sorry. Please speak up and take credit.[/disclaimer]

I know there's evidence that Nicholas is a skin (a husk in Harvest, his "picking" at his skin in Wipe Out), but could Nicholas be the NY 4's protector? Here's the idea: Nicholas is the shapeshifter/protector sent with the New York 4.

Somewhere along the way, during the first few years, he realized that his batch were the messed-up ones and dumped them in the sewer. He may have appeared to them a few times (either as Nicholas or in another form) to try to get information or to manipulate them. Lonnie made a comment or two that they did know a shapeshifter/protector at some point.

Nicholas realized that the NY 4 weren't going to fullfil the destiny/prophecy and/or be able to help Kivar, who Nicholas was truly loyal to, without the granilith. So he dumped his charges and went in search of the real Royal 4 and the granilith. He signaled, organized, and/or teamed up with the Skins for more resources and power.

The NY 4 weren't even born yet by the time the Skins came to town. Maybe Nicholas was just restless and tired of waiting for them to hatch. He's evil--he could have a variety of motives. So, Nicholas plays the role of "protector/instructor" and doubles as the leader of the Skins. He can shapeshift, so this is not too difficult. He doesn't have to worry about aging so can fake being a Skin.

In the meantime, he has the Skins out searching for the Royal 4. Since he's not truly a Skin, Nicholas is immune to Tess's genocidal mindwarp. Lonnie and Rath trust him since they've worked with him before (either as Skin or as Protector). Maybe Nicholas really was Kivar's right-hand-man, as Lonnie's memory implies and somehow found his way to being designated as "protector" for the NY 4.

Okay. It's out there for you to play with.

May be he “accepted” Tess for the sake of his son, as sometimes men do with the mother of their sons, even if they didn’t feel for her before.
This made it easier for him to come to terms with the situation he was in, as he couldn’t separate his son from his mother.
Max surely loves Liz despite all he went through, the fake sex, the many refusals, the accusations. He always goes to her, in times of need.

Your nick suggests that you are an Ava's fan, correct?
Elena

The awful thing too is after seeing all the interviews, I am feeling less like there is any MYTHOLOGY to ROSWELL like I once believed---more and more it is seeming like throwing spaghetti to the wall and seeing if what sticks!!! That makes me sad because the show had so much potential to have a great mythological background.

[Quote]The awful thing too is after seeing all the interviews, I am feeling less like there is any MYTHOLOGY to ROSWELL like I once believed---more and more it is seeming like throwing spaghetti to the wall and seeing if what sticks!!! That makes me sad because the show had so much potential to have a great mythological background.[/B][/QUOTE]

May be he “accepted” Tess for the sake of his son, as sometimes men do with the mother of their sons, even if they didn’t feel for her before.
This made it easier for him to come to terms with the situation he was in, as he couldn’t separate his son from his mother.
Max surely loves Liz despite all he went through, the fake sex, the many refusals, the accusations. He always goes to her, in times of need.

Your nick suggests that you are an Ava's fan, correct?
Elena

Yes, I am an Ava fan!!

I completely and totally hear what you are saying. I had a mini (well, not so mini) rant to my husband about this - yes, he just gave me a blank, slightly amused look while I ranted away. Anyway, if the million writers that they had for Roswell would just take a look at the stuff on this thread (and others, I am sure), they would realize that you can have BOTH relationships AND scifi without making one or the other utter crap. There can be mythology without confusing the entire fanbase. It can be interesting without being just another DC or 90210! I think mythology makes better, longer lasting, and more substantial "water cooler conversation" than who is doing what to whom, with whom, etc.

I guess I can't rant enough about this Sorry. I just totally feel your pain on this topic.

Now I thought the "Maria Intros" were fine given the long hiatus the show took over the winter, but even those wouldn't have been necessary if they hadn't dropped the Liz Journal entries and had developed storylines that were consistent and on-going. Just look at Max and Liz. I had NO PROBLEM with TEOTW. Given the Destiny storyline - it was an interesting spin with lots of potential in the Mythology area - but then they jerked us around, week after week, without just dealing with it in a consistent fashion. Good example - one week we have VLV with Liz and Max holding hands (and the "Wedding Flash"), and then we get (if you watch in order) "Off the Menu" which showed NO relationship connection between them, followed by the "Stepford Max" Chronicles w/ all that went with it. We are all left going "WHAT???"

Okay - this is now a full-fledged RANT, and I apologize for that because I truly am looking forward to Season 3 of Roswell, and wouldn't be going to LA if I wasn't - but I truly wonder when the creative head of a show (who I truly believe is an incredible talented writer BTW!) seems to have such a lack of understanding of his significant fan base! Enought said - I have to go back and work!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

NLA - No, we do not know what they looked like (the book shows only their Hybrid form), and that is one of the reasons that we all think the "recovered memories" were fake, because wouldn't they remember themselves in their former alien form in those memorie?? And how the shapeshifter, skins, etc. are all related is one of the big issues that has never been dealt with.

Now back to work!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Yes! Max had a flashback, in "Ask Not", long before there was any possibility of Tess mindwarping him. It's in the sequence of stressful situations Max has been in.

It seem to be from the massacre that included the Royal Four, but we don't know.

I might be able to meet y'all for the Covina walk after all.

And elenac, ITA with your take on Max's feelings for Tess being due to her carrying his son.

It seem to be from the massacre that included the Royal Four, but we don't know.

I don't have that episode on tape. Can you describe them to me?

Reggie - can't see the picture you posted, but I'm assuming it is the one that looks like the dead/skinned cow's head. We really don't know what that is of - though it could be of the massacre (assuming it was a massacre??). We just don't (and may never!) know!! One thing that I've enjoyed about Farscape has been the different takes on the aliens, though many are "human" form. Personally, I don't care what Max "looked" like, because he is not that person/alien anymore. He may have Zan's essence (whatever that is supposed to be in Roswell terms), but he is Max - and will always be Max, not Zan.

NLA - as far as the skins being the equivalent of a spacesuit - you are right, that is the description that Courtney gives - a suit that the aliens we know as skins create a symbiotic relationship with. I would have loved to have seen Courtney leave one skin and "swim" ('cause I think it was all done underwater in a bathtub) into the new skin). Interesting that Mikey G never commented on what was "transferred" though he was there the entire time - I think - that it occurred. So, under the "skins" are alien forms of some kind, but obviously different from the shapeshifters which seem to be able to exist on earth without any form of outer protection. Are they a different alien species from the skins from the original Royal 4? Don't know?? We still haven't even heard the name of the home planet - called Antar on silverhandprint site - on the show. I still liked calling it Twilo!

Basically, lots of questions, and no answers!

Reggie - do you think they will ever revisit that flash as Max entered the UFO Center to kill Brody? I don't think they will. I think that was just thrown in there for use "Grace Kel" types to see if we would catch it. Someones little joke! ???

Done with work for the day - and done reading up on things - so I'm off! Will check back later or tomorrow - you all have a great evening!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Will we see it again? Well, if they ever have a visit-to-Twilo, we may see more. Otherwise, probably not. OTOH, we saw what might have been Zan & Ava's First Kiss in 4SQ as a "mindwarp" (?), and again in OTM. I hope so: it would be a part of alien history that we want to know more about.

DreamerAtHeart--as for your speculation about Nicholas, I too thought there was a possibility he was a shapeshifter, I even thought he could be Mr Creepy--Ed Harding the shapeshifter.

ITA! There were times (when I first started watching Roswell) that I simply took everything at face value and thought nothing more about it. Of course, that changed and I became ritualistic with our Liz Myth pages and what seemed like nothing at all soon became clues to the KEY of Liz's Importance!

Of course, I've read interviews with Shiri and JK, as well, and they all seems to imply "a nice combo between Season 1's love line and Season 2's sci-fi line" - saying NOTHING about the chads and questions we ALL have!

quote:Now I thought the "Maria Intros" were fine given the long hiatus the show took over the winter, but even those wouldn't have been necessary if they hadn't dropped the Liz Journal entries and had developed storylines that were consistent and on-going. Just look at Max and Liz. I had NO PROBLEM with TEOTW. Given the Destiny storyline - it was an interesting spin with lots of potential in the Mythology area - but then they jerked us around, week after week, without just dealing with it in a consistent fashion. Good example - one week we have VLV with Liz and Max holding hands (and the "Wedding Flash"), and then we get (if you watch in order) "Off the Menu" which showed NO relationship connection between them, followed by the "Stepford Max" Chronicles w/ all that went with it. We are all left going "WHAT???"

Yep - ITA again! Why not just keep the journal entries? We all loved them (well, most of us anyway). Maybe it was a quest to try and find the angle that Roswell needs - should it be about Liz, should it be about the Pod Squad, should it be about love or sci-fi and what kind of balance should it all have!? But.. come on! Stick with what works, ya know!?

OK, yep, so I think I've ranted enough for one day. I have to input (just like Zero, again) that I'm really excited for Season 3 - to find some answers - or maybe just to see what happens. And I'm REALLY excited about LA!!

That’s probably what we’ve seen in S2, together with a certain amount of lack in continuity. Too many episodes in my opinion, didn’t need a second view. Not complicated but didn’t get me involved in them.

Still he is a very good writer and he knows how to give us emotional episodes. In his own way he kept faith to Max and Liz’s very special relationship. Max never really fell out of love with Liz, it can be sensed every time they look for one another, and as for this FM’s mission failed.

Moreover, one of the things that made me wonder about Departure was: why Max after all decided not to follow Tess for the sake of his son? It was contrary to all the care he showed for them. True, he had no time to think, knew about Tess’ betrayal and that he’d be killed but, Tess and the baby were anyway going on a journey towards the unknown. What if it wasn’t true that she had no enemies on Antar? His presence could be valuable at that point, he could decide to go for his son whatever may have happened, well have that sort of attitude that men may have. He must have trusted her words or ..... somewhere deep down inside himself he had a good reason to stay, Liz.

So, let’s be patient and hope. Elena.

It certainly isn't a very attractive picture, and it's one that I'd never seen before. Maybe Gracekel is right about it being one of the slaughtered cows?

Yes!! ITA, Zero. Does Melinda Metz still visit Crashdown? If so, maybe she will be able to get through to him.

That's not a cow. My sibling is an Ag teacher, and says so. Expert opinion, final answer. Besides, what did Max have to do with mutilated cows? The other flashes were all his, or what he was studying in school at the time.

OT: Anyone need a room-mate for the Party? PM or e-mail me.

Zero, You're right about Michael witnessing the husk change, at least according to Michael and his conversation in Wipe Out:
quote:MICHAEL: Why do you care? You've never been interested in my social circles before.

MAX: You were never sleeping with the enemy before.

MICHAEL: And I'm not now.

MAX: Then why was she at your apartment this morning?

MICHAEL: 'Cause she wanted to show me how the husk fit. That's it.

MAX: Good.

Regarding the skinned head thing...
I think they may have just put it into the mix as an image to subtly arouse disgust and/or fear in the audience. It may have been a way to convey the feelings to the audience that Max was experiencing and wasn't meant to be GraceKelled. But, Reggie, did you say it was moving? That's disturbing. If it was a cow's head, maybe it was just swinging on it's meat hook. Or ... ????

About the images of Tess and Max's first kiss....
Question: were the images in the flashes/mindwarp (?) in Four Square the same as those in OTM? Was it the same kissing just with a different background? Actually, come to think of it, neither are probably their first kiss, since, if I remember correctly, they were naked. The first kiss supposedly took place at a party where, I would assume, they wouldn't be naked. But then, of course, they wouldn't be in human form on Antar either, huh?

See, it must be a mindwarp--Tess doesn't know what they look like in their Antarean form any more than the others do. Didn't she make some comment in S1 about how Nacedo didn't let her get that close--not that the shapeshifter would look the same as the Royal 4 on Antar.

Oh, Zero, by the way, in the Destiny Book Translation they refer to "Antar" at least twice.

Semi-Off Topic:
I'm organizing my trip to the Party. When is the "last event", so I know I can make plans to include/exclude this?

My current plan is to go Fri. evening; see the Liz Mythologists & Covina Sat., and party Sat. PM / Sun. AM. Am I missing anything I should see? Like the burning-writers-in-effigy party?

DreameratHeart - I forgot about the transcription of the Book! Thanks! Interesting - I wonder about these communicators that are supposed to allow communication with the home planet - not just the Mom'ogram?

Reggie - I agree that it is not a cow's head - though I believe that Grace Kel's conclusion is logical given the campfire story by Kyle in Into the Woods, but what is it? (Looks like a horse head to me - shades of the Godfather! ) I agree that given the mix of flashes it must have something to do with a violent event, but a "Past" memory?? Also, I do remember that it moved - like breathing??

Also - the flash of Liz and Tess embracing/kissing, that we were to believe was a recovered memory, is a joke if you remember not only are they in Human form, but Tess has a wristwatch! I guess you still have to tell time in those multiple dimensions! !!

Oh - and Thanks to all of you who supported my Rant! Sorry again - I hate to Rant, but it is so easy to get into that mode sometimes! BUT I'm looking forward to an excellent Season to analyze!

Anyway - hope you are all doing well! Have a great evening - I'm going off line soon!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Well I just saw "Breed". Now hey, that was usual.

And by the way, it's hard to figure out that eye, upon redness flesh flash that Max had, but could it be the "evil within."

Style

Style

could tess have been a vessel for kivar and killed alex by kivars controls......maybe she isnt bad

Also - welcome ALL newbies!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Or they caught a documentary on TLC, PBS or the Discovery Channel about ... I don't know... beef packing plants or something. Even then, however, I'd have to think they'd pay royalties to use images which don't belong to them. In any case, said scenes took *effort* to stick in there and like Reg and others, I don't want to believe they were purposeless. Especially considering Mr. Sci-Fi Ron Moore wrote "Ask Not". I'm inclined to believe the BEM means *something*, we just don't know what yet. Of course, it appeared in the second ep of S2... and we never seen or heard from it again.

quote:I suspect that there was a potential plotline that did show us what the R4 looked like, but it was scrapped.

Unfortunately, I agree Reg... unless it does have something to do with Kyle's story about cattle mutilation on Hattie Wexler's farm from ITW. Aliens mutilating livestock? Although I wouldn't have a clue why Max would be remembering that (unless he was the one actually doing the "mutilating" -- why would a Royal be killing Earth animals?). Or the livestock mutilation is a representation of the cruelty of alien society? It's just a symbol per se; representing the callous nature of the aliens of this story (including the former Royals)? Yes... I'm still on my Antar Royal/Nazi comparisons.

Digging much Mel?? Yup.

Depending on whether or not the BEM is actually a skinned horse's/cow's head.... but perhaps a model the Ros people themselves created and filmed. It almost looks like there's a triangle in the eye of the BEM in Reg's screencap. Isn't the Universal Friendship League's (aka Skins') token symbol a pyramid? Aka a triangle?

quote:Will we see it again? Well, if they ever have a visit-to-Twilo, we may see more.

Or perhaps Max, Michael and/or Isabel start having nightmares in S3? Or maybe Liz gets some flashes from Max after resuming intimate/intense contact with him? Talk about a freak out. Liz kissing Max and she sees the BEM -- or perhaps hundreds/thousands of bodies -- all bloody/mutilated... against a blood red alien sky. "Max" (aka King Zan), "Michael" and "Isabel" all holding knives dripping with blood and flesh. Pass the valium, Liz would need it! Yikes.

Zero: The grey/white chick is named Chiana. I like her, but not as much as Aeryn.

Melodious

Could the blood red (jello) water on Antar not actually be "water" at all? I know I'm REALLY stretching here... but what if perhaps the "memories" Max was "remembering" were more symbolic then anything? In one of Max's memories (HOM), he said he was swimming in this (blood red) jello water as far as I can remember. What if it's actually alien BLOOD the King was swimming in? Alien blood, which has the consistency of jello (or not, that was Max's description of it - perhaps it's thicker than water, but not necessarily the consistency of water OR jello, maybe more like mercury)? King Zan - the King that decided fates of armies by a flip of a coin - swam in the blood of those he conquered? Massacres? Wars? All perpetrated by the "King"... which is why he was overthrown? He was a tyrant? Not saying Kivar wasn't a tyrant... he could have been no better than "Zan", maybe worse (merely not as "cooperative" with the other Royal houses as "Zan" was.... which is why the other Royal houses are all at odds with Kiv? MITC).

"Brody" seems to remember also being there with "Zan" if I recall (OTM)... but of course, I also believe those things "Brody" was remembering were mindwarps. Not necessarily by Tess (although she's my #1 suspect, sorry Reg), but I do believe they were planted in his head. I don't buy "Brody" remembering Max/Tess (as opposed to Zan/Ava)... Tess doning a wristwatch in the "memories". "Memories" which also held a striking resemblance to those we see in M2TM last season. Didn't "Brody" also remember Rath's diagram from the Dupes sewer? Now that could have been a Max memory resurfacing due to the situation, possibly. However, the only other person there that would have remembered that diagram would have been Tess, the mindwarper (all this barring pentagon thing activated and it's effectiveness on Tess - T who wiped out a room of Skins in WO... perhaps she's beyond the capacities of the pentagon?).

If this theory is at all feasible.... perhaps Max *was* remembering what kind of leader he was? On the surface, they're these lovey-dovey memories... symbolically, they're the truth to the horror of Zan's reign? Which Ava was directly a part of (which is also why she's so enveloped in these memories). She was his accomplice and supporter to every horrible thing Zan did (not unlike Eva Braun to Adolf Hitler)? Influencing him for the worse (but obviously, I'm not trying to push all the blame on Ava - Hitler would have been Hitler with or without Eva present). While Rath and Vilondra had split allegiances... possibly because they too opposed Zan's tyranny (but also were fairly unscrupulous themselves... Zan was simply worse than they were) as well as Kivar? It's just that Kivar ultimately won, as opposed to the other Royals (Rath and Vilondra) who also had their eyes on Zan's throne?

Melodious

I know I've brought this up before as well as others, but I'm always intrigued by the possible theological/biblical references "Roswell" might be making (and at times they're so obvious, I don't know how they *can't* be making them).

10 PLAGUES OF EGYPT / MAX'S "MEMORIES" and EXPERIENCES, latter S2:

Antarian Red Water/Sky:

Exodus 7:19-20 (PLAGUE OF BLOOD)
[19] And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.
[20] And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

BEM (mutilated cow's/horse's head)?:

Exodus 9:3-4 (PLAGUE OF CATTLE)
[3] Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain.
[4] And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel.

Max/Tess's son:

Exodus 11:5 (DEATH OF THE FIRSTBORN)
[5] And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

I just want to make it perfectly clear, in regards to that last comparison. I'm not *wishing* for that to happen or anything. I'm just making a theological comparison to "Roswell" and it being a possibility. Max as Rameses... Rameses was basically being punished by God - which finally ended up in Rameses first born dying (at least in a narrative sense where the KJV bible is concerned). IF Max's son is indeed dead (or soon will be) could this some kind of punishment for the leader Max *once* was? Karmic payback for the (horrifying) things Zan did?

"Roswell", however, is sort of a conundrum. I see Max as *both* Rameses AND Moses. The persecutor and the liberator.
Zan = Pharaoh Rameses
Max = Moses
Tess = Nefretiri (sp? - the Queen, Rameses wife)
Liz = Tzipporah (Moses' wife)

Max has to overcome the Rameses within him to fulfill his destiny? By Tess's side, he reverts back to "Rameses", a (callous, but powerful) king... by Liz's side, he becomes "Moses", a liberator? It's not Max's destiny to be King again, but the liberator/leader of his people? But would that be Antarians or humans? Hence, the dilemma of S3 (or at least I think that's what the dilemma will be - which is more important, the alien side or the human?).

Melodious

(Nicholas leaves)

LAREK: You don't remember any of this, I'm sure, but...our families used to be very close. You and I practically grew up together. I was there at your father's funeral. At your coronation, your wedding. We were friends. And it was so painful to watch you fall, to see you trying so hard to make a better world for your people. And then to watch you have it all taken away by a man like Kivar...I told you you were trying to do too much too soon, that change takes time. But you wouldn't listen. You just kept...what's the point? It's all ancient history now. What a shame it is to see history repeat itself.

This dialogue from MIC suggests that Zan was a kind and just ruler. Or at least trying to make a better world for his people.
I just don't buy that they would take the time to "re-make" a King who was such a tyrant as to swim in his enemys blood.

Larek could have been theoretically as bad as Zan was. Larek, however "soft-spoken" he was very well might have had *beliefs* that could go against any kind of a "democratic" government. Of course, I might just be blowing hot air too. IMO, we really don't have enough information to determine what sort of leader Zan was or particulars of how his kingdom was run. However, honestly, I really don't perceive *any* of the aliens as very pleasant customers particularly in concerns to human relations. Those aliens would include the former Royal 4. As far as I can tell, most aliens seem to perceive humans as cattle, "wasteful" or elements to be exploited to an alien advantage. Ex/ we already know at least one human whose gone crazy from his "alien" experiences, Grandpa Dupree. Several other humans have had their lives sent topsy-turvy because of aliens or alien situations (Brody, Laurie Dupree, Jim Valenti, Liz, Kyle, the list goes on and on). If aliens perceive humans (a "lesser" species) this way, what do they treat each other like? With all the stories about Vilandra, the current description of Zan's former rule - barring Larek's description (and granted, all other sources could be considered questionable, but these things were presented in the story imo as possibilities of how Zan *might* have been), Rath and his wavering allegiances... I can't think alien/alien treatment was all that much better (possibly, just more calculated).

The Roswell hybrids have indeed done good things and are generally good people... that certainly doesn't mean they always were. As many have said and I tend to agree with this sentiment, those Royals died on a far off planet and they shouldn't be a factor anymore in who the hybrids are now. However, I believe - if "pushed" or "awakened" from outside factors (ex/ Max/Tess and the memory retrieval sessions)... it opens up the "alien" in them... in my above belief/theories, I don't necessarily consider this a good thing.

Like Reggie speculated once... perhaps "the evil within" the podsters had to defeat was in/amongst themselves?

quote:I just don't buy that they would take the time to "re-make" a King who was such a tyrant as to swim in his enemys blood.

I hope you understand I was being figurative. I don't picture Zan actually pouring blood all over himself... but the red and blood more as representations of war, massacre, genocide that I believe could have been a factor (maybe a very large one) in Zan's rule. There have certainly been rulers on Earth which have "bathed themselves in blood".... and I suppose I consider the chance Zan was a similar sort of ruler (adding the seeming coldness / *survival of the fittest* type of alien politics/government and general callous / superior attitude displayed by most aliens in this story).

I think of the comparisons between Count Dracula of fiction and the reality of Vlad the Impaler. Count Dracula (vampire, living dead, drinks blood, stakes through the heart, etc etc) is a myth popularized by modern culture/fiction, when the reality of Dracula was actually just a very cruel leader who was horribly brutal against all who opposed him (I don't think he actually drank the blood of his enemies, but he's just one example of a [human] ruler literally "bathed in blood" - killing indiscriminantly and mercilessly). A ruler so horrible, fantastical (frightening) stories were created about him. In theory, Max's "memories" are the Count Dracula, the metaphorical.... but Zan was Vlad the Impaler (possibly, a cruel leader). Figuratively, bathing himself in blood (this could be simply because of the mistakes he was making due to his beliefs - which Larek agreed with or because he willfully slaughtered/crushed his enemies literally like Vlad the Impaler. I am more inclined to believe the first).

Melodious

I'm not really speculating that he was a "horrible" King, you can be a good king and still be quite cruel (at least cruel to a particular faction(s) of his Kingdom - i.e. the comparisons with Egyptian pharaohs). Continuing with the Egyptian comparisons... Seti I, Rameses II... they were both great kings, two of the most powerful, successful and wealthiest pharaohs in Ancient Egyptian history. Seti's reign is actually considered a "golden age" in Egyptian dynasties (sound familiar?). However, if you've seen The 10 Commandments at least once... what was popularized most about Rameses rule, at least in the Christian aspect of it, is Rameses (and his father's) horrible persecution of the Israelites. However, the persecution of the Israelites is only really evident in the Christian aspect... Egyptian records of the time don't consider the exodus of the Israelites such a major event. It's barely documented in any of the hieroglyphs in the time of Rameses rule. It wasn't necessarily for embarrassment either... Rameses was such a powerful ruler, it was considered somewhat like a minor setback to all of the other things he did for Egypt as a whole. I believe he also ruled Egypt the longest of any pharaoh, dying in his 70s I think (which is pretty da** old for an Ancient Egyptian).

Hence I believe the Antarians possibly recreated Zan (who was indeed a good King, but considered very cruel by many... however, not by those who recreated him or followed him of course) and the other podsters for possibly selfish reasons. THEIR particular (supremisist?) way of life is currently not the way of life of Antar... and they want that back. They possibly don't care how Max does it, they just want to be the top dogs again. It doesn't make it the best decision for Antar (or particularly, Earth). I really don't know what to think about an alien race(s) - the same that recreated the royals - would treat humans in such a way that the "experiments" (obtaining the very rare DNA defect, they must have gone through a considerable # of humans imo) would drive said humans to insanity, possibly death. The Antarians also seemed to not give a da** what their hybrids' presence would do to Earth (which has caused more aliens to come and search for them, no doubt increasing the human casualty margin considerably). Perhaps when Max really starts learning about the kind of leader he ONCE was... he won't ever want to go back to being that way again? Hence stay on Earth permanently and protect it?

quote:and if you read the bible from the very beginning-ramses was the son who took over his fathers kingdom and he wasnt evil he was following directions from his father

Evenso, it doesn't negate the son from any blame.

quote:watch the prince of egypt-even though it is animation-it is 92%like the bible-it was ramses father who did the muttering of the first born of the jews.

Yes. And? Rameses propagated such beliefs (as far as my limited awareness of Egyptology can confirm that is). He certainly didn't do anything to counteract his father's way of ruling. Why would he? His father is considered one of the wealthiest pharaohs of Egypt... you're da** straight he's going to follow in the footsteps of his father, and even try to be MORE successful than he was. Slavery was still an issue hundreds of years after Rameses rule, as was the persecution of the Israelites/Canaanites, etc. Zan might not have only been trying to follow in his father's footsteps, but try to be even more successful/powerful and do it as quickly as possible (hence Larek's statement in MITC that Zan was trying to do too much too soon).

quote:maybe max was trying to go from a very violent/dominantly war type of planet to a more king arthur type of setting-where there was a lot of peace.

Possibly, although then why would Courtney say in HARVEST that their planet was on the brink of a golden age.... until Zan came along?

quote:as for the theory of the red blood water and the red sky-could they maybe be in a solar system where they have a red sun-which would then give complete different emissions than our yellow sun here?

Certainly. However I was speaking more in a metaphorical/figurative sense.

quote:besides i think all the characters portray the type of people they were on thier own planet. they have 1/2 alien half human dna

I don't think it's ever been stated flat out the hybrids are a 50/50 split of alien and human. It could very well be 90/10 or 70/30. We don't know for sure.

As you stated "you think" the podsters are as they were on the home planet, hence it's your opinion. Of course it's one I've considered myself. However, does this opinion include the Dupes? The dupes and the Roswell hybrids behavior didn't seem all that similar to me. So were the alien royals more like the dupes or the Roswell podsters (who have been called "human" and "too human" on more than one occassion)?

Pretty much everything else in your post was also based on your opinion, but not necessarily fact. Sure they're possibilities, but I don't know how much in the actual story supports your theories. Particularly in concerns to Tess/Ava... whose past life we know almost little to nothing about.

Melodious

I went into lurk mode on this thread for a while....but i just thought i'd come out and say HI to everyone!!!! that alien pic you guys have been posting is very...let me say......extra-terrestrial(sp?)........ya....that explains my feelings for it.....i guess......

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

Depending on whether or not the BEM is actually a skinned horse's/cow's head.... but perhaps a model the Ros people themselves created and filmed. It almost looks like there's a triangle in the eye of the BEM in Reg's screencap.

My point exactly: the pupil of the BEM's eye is triangular. So it is unlike all other earthly eyes... therefore Alien. In context, probably one of the Royal Four. And definitely a Roswell prop, not a clip from The Discovery Channel.

I took the "swimming in jello" vision to be like the dream where you're running in molasses from a Monster. You keep working at it, but don't make progress... a metaphor for the last days of King Zan; where the situation was deteriorating but he couldn't help it.

Goodness, you do hate the Royal Four, don't you? We hashed this through, on the Psychology Of Roswell thread years ago...
Paging Doc Paul! Paging Doc Paul!

Max: in S1 was shy, retiring; hides behind tree. Probably a reaction to being too bold & headstrong in last life: it got him killed, and he's spooked by it. Confirmed my Larek's comments. Lately, he's been up to his old tricks... and it doesn't look good on him.

Michael: in S1 was a loose cannon: too bold, and headstrong. Probably a reaction to being too much an academic or facilitator last time; went along, gave advice, but didn't stand up for his own differing opinions. (Witness the "Michael-worshiping Skins".) Now, he's beginning to do that. Looks good.

Isabel: Self-centered control freak; beautiful and she knows it. But, in this life she seems much more loyal to Max. She follows his directions, not her heart. Perhaps a reaction to the "Vilandra" storyline: she was less loyal, and it got them killed.

Tess: A Max worshiper, in both lives. She sees Max as King Zan, the Magnificent: he can "throw" Nikolas pretty far, and his decisions are always right. (Charisma seems to be a job requirement for being King on Twilo: Kivar, Zan and Rath all have fanatical followers who would do anything for them, even being stranded on an alien world for 50 years or more.) Tess finally sees Max for the boy he is, and complains that he isn't the King he was. Of course not; and good! That King got them all killed, with help from his sister. His re-incarnation, Zan the Dupe, got killed by his sister. If Isabel were more hostile, she might have done in Max, too, when he blackmailed her. It's the point of the story: Zan/Max learns to be a good leader. With a little help from his friends...

I asked my friend, a biology teacher, about the skinned head. She thought cow or horse at first, but I told her there were doubts about it being a cow. She thought it may be a type of lizard since some have a ridge between their eyes. She was also fairly certain that it was right-side-up because of the heavier bone over the eye.

Triangles....UFL symbol, strange bomb, Max-Tess-Liz...

[b]Semi-Off Topic:
I'm organizing my trip to the Party. When is the "last event", so I know I can make plans to include/exclude this?

My current plan is to go Fri. evening; see the Liz Mythologists & Covina Sat., and party Sat. PM / Sun. AM. Am I missing anything I should see? Like the burning-writers-in-effigy party?

[/B]

Reggie, when are you returning??? I don't know when, but sometime I am going to take Rooney (MOB37 wannabe) out on the 285 South Tour. It could be Sunday morning. We have plans later that day. If you're going to be in the area into the work week, it might be better then. If not, I could make a crude map and some notes and give them to you so can at least see the Rocks.

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

My printer is on the blink right now. Another reason why I have to go to Mom's house. I haven't read the introduction since the last update (gasp). Anyway, it's nice to see this thread moving along at a tolerable pace.

The only thing I regreted about the LizMyth book last time is that I had the thing with me on the set and couldn't approach Shiri and give it to her. (It just wouldn't have been right, she was extremely busy, and I was there by the grace of God.)

So, when charmedkitten got it to her, and later Hooked's photo, well, it was such a joy for me. It was totally like I was there after all.

Regarding the BEM - well, I honestly don't know what to think about it???? Has anyone every read cut dialog from the Ask Not or Skin and Bones script that my explain it? The triangular pupil does sound like it is an alien connection.

How was M/Mi/I going to kill Brody anyway? Were their any plans to skin him? Perhaps seeing if he is the source of the alien skins they were finding in odd places. What I am suggesting, could the BEM be a future Max saw of Brody??? Max can see future visions as we know from VLV... Does he subconsciously realize that what they are going to do is wrong, because he seens the result of their intent before it happens???

Frankly, I'm glad I don't know.

Also, going back to science questions, for me, that has no science education. I watched Nova the other night and they were showing a group of scientists looking for a Type A1 Supernova. The intent was to track the light's speed and use that to assist in the mathematical proof that the universe was shrinking.

A type A1 Supernova has a white dwarf next to it, and the dying RED GIANT star and white dwarf explode at the same time. Of course, I started thinking about Liz and whether or not Liz could be a white dwarf. She recognizes the Red Giant in SH and in MTD she seens very concerned about the star that died. Could Max be the Red Giant, and Liz the white dwarf? I guess that's what I'm asking.

I love watching season 1, but as soon as Tess and Nacedo show up I become very confused at everyone's behavior.
The 6 of them keep saying we need to trust eachother but everytime they make some sort of discovery they hide it from one another and trust Nacedo and Tess. What?
For ex. in 4Square, Tess goes on and on to Isabel that she feels she is destined to be with Max. Isabel doesn't say anything about that to Max. Max sees Tess with the DB and doesn't tell anyone. Michael learns about Polman Ranch from Tess and doesn't tell anyone. Isabel and Michael has crazy dreams and they don't tell anyone. Are we seeing a pattern here folks. They need some lessons in trust. Hopefully we will see that in Season 3.
OH! And Notice everytime someone has a memory flash the same sound effects are used when Tess uses her mind warps.
Also I think that Nacedo wanted Max to be captured in MTTM. Why did he save Liz and not Max? Why was she the first priority?

Does anyone ealse wonder about these season 1 questions knowing what we know from Departure?

What are your thoughts?

I think that your on to something there with the whole Nacedo thing. I mean why was Liz his first priority after he had been telling her that she was useless and that he didn't care what happened to her or something like that. Why kidnap Liz in the first place anyway unless he wanted to lure max into his little trap. But then why did he volunteer so quickly in getting him out of the white room where he was held by Peirce; To avoid suspicion amongst the others or to hold the deal he originally had with Kavar?

Just some thoughts. Let me know what you think.

Never fail to amaze me!

BTW - If you want to meet the morning of the LA party in Covina for coffee, walking tour and lunch after - with a bit of Liz Mything - PM Qfanny!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

This is unlikely, but who knows?

I really like where your going with this. This is unlikely, but very deep. This would explain the whole future max senerio as well.
For ex. If Tess was recently brought into the mix then you would see how easy it was for her to betray the one person she was supposedly destined to be with. However future max says that tess' leaving later lead to the end of the world. If she wasn't an original podster than why would it matter if she left or not, cause they wouldn't need her unless Kivar somehow also altered the fact that Tess was important to all of them. But like you said you never know.

Liz: "Don't you relize what you are to me, everyone else will always be second best".

Someone had asked an interesting question from another thread regarding this matter of "healing Power." They had wanted to know that since the pilot episode told us that the aliens have the ability to change molecular structure and this is how Max healed Liz, shouldn't that mean the other aliens have the ability to heal as well?

Now as far as Max having the power to heal, I don't think it has to do with being human...the Royal 4 are alien in origin. Their past lives were lived on Antar not earth. They are not human in orgin...the only difference in their present lives here on earth is that human subjects who had the "genetic flaw" had DNA taken from them so it could be combined with the alien DNA through the use of the crystals. I think what Nasedo was referring to in THE WHITE ROOM during season 1 was that humans have the ability to use the same powers as the aliens if they had access to all of their brain power. The ROYAL 4 don't have the powers because of the human DNA. These powers have always been alien in nature! That was why Michael was confused about who he actually was like because of the new human dna donated to him so he could live on earth.

As far as the healing stones, this is what I think! They are an alien artifact that requires energy to work. The energy comes from within the individual using the power of the healing stones. Either an alien or a human being can put energy into the stones so they work. In THE BALANCE, Riverdog explained he had used those stones to heal "Nasedo" when he fell ill like Michael. I think the purpose of the "healing stones" is to heal "balance" and not heal "permanent injury." Because if they were capable of doing that...Nasedo should not have died the second time around. This is why I think Michael was helped when he was sick in Season 1. As far as we know Max is an Antarian...and he has the ability to heal. It is possible that each alien is genetically designed to be stronger in one power over another. So in answer to another poster's question...I think it is possible that the others have the ability to heal as well just not on the degree Max is able to...so maybe they can heal small injuries but not injuries revolving around life or death situations. Maybe this division of power has something to do with the BALANCE among the ROYAL 4 that has been mentioned (Future Max referred to it in the END OF THE WORLD after Tess had left the group and town). Each alien probably has a stronger power within the group unit but still maintain other alien powers on a lower degree! Maybe we just haven't seen the use of 'healing powers' by the others because they weren't put in a position to use it on their lower level of use. Just an idea.

MAYBE MY THOUGHTS WILL HELP WITH A LITTLE INSIGHT INTO IT........

Heather

Well there was a time that we saw one of the podsters use their healing power on a lower level. In INTO THE WOODS Micheal uses the ability to heal while walking through the woods with Riverdog on their way to finding the imprint supposedly left by Necedo. River Dog hurts his ankle remember and tells Michael that he has to sit and that he should go ahead. Instead Michael stays and talks with River Dog and within a few secends heals River Dogs fractured or sprained ankle. Although I see where your going with this whole idea that each podster has his own valuable power that is more essential to all of their survivals.

Tess: To return home with your child, and deliver the three of you to Kivar.

I think what [b]nermal was trying to say was IF the above is indeed what Kivar wants/wanted... then Tess fulfilled NONE of these things in that alternate EOTW timeline because she left seemingly out of spite. AS you stated ava, in theory, possibly joined up (or tried to join up) with her Skin allies. WHY did she leave? Didn't she have a MISSION to fulfill for Kivar?? By leaving she drops the mission into limbo! Did she deem this mission SO impossible post-*Max and Liz's 'cementing'* that she just gave up and left? Doesn't really seem prudent to me if King Kivar IS expecting the above three things and she goes to him completely empty-handed.

ALSO.... if the above is what Kivar wanted all along... then why didn't he just TAKE what he wanted (especially if they could have just mindraped Tess for the Granilith's location OR she told them where it was willingly - it would have EASILY been in their clutches imo in that alt. EOTW timeline)? This is a story where hybrid engineering & superadvanced alien technology exists. Particularly in those 14 YEARS in that alternate EOTW timeline, couldn't Kivar just have taken some of Max's DNA and some of Tess's, mix it together and concoct an heir? Or is this when Max's brain tattoo factors into this mess? Brain tattoo *must* be passed on the "human" way? Not that seemingly makes all that much difference because it seems - despite the sex having to be "human" - everything about the pregnancy itself (even the kid) seemed totally ALIEN, to the point the kid couldn't survive on Earth (of course, Tess could have very well been lying about all of that, lies all the more believable with her ability to mindwarp). IF Tess is pregnant (and if there's a benevolent god out there, she isn't)... does that kid have the brain tattoo? Or does it take more than just "human" sex (1 hr. floating stuff aside, ahem) to pass it on to a potential heir?

If the above is the case, I don't get why a brain tattoo would be this defining point in who can or can't rule this alien planet. Especially when Kivar has already proven once already that the Royals (brain tattooes and/or birth right aside) CAN be defeated. It seems almost too messianic / superstituous for an advanced alien race(s)... of course, what the he** do I know.

Kivar's very demand of an heir is bewildering to me. Why the hell does he seemingly need Max's kid so badly? Are bloodlines THAT important on alien Antar (Antar, with a system of politics seemingly so cutthroat it would make humans look like "oversensitive baboons" as Whitaker said in her diary)? Why? KIVAR is the King now. Whether he rightfully deserves the title or not, he is, he defeated the former Royals. Why does a kid from the former King matter so much? Shouldn't Kivar concentrate more on his own progeny as opposed to those of the deposed royal set?

IMO... IF the above is what Kivar indeed wants more than anything (Heir, Granilith and the Royals)... then Tess STILL had a mission to fulfill in that alt. EOTW timeline - just because it was "hard" doesn't mean it ceased being in Kivar's plans. Were Kiv's demands EVER met in that alternate EOTW timeline? It seems at least part of it was, two Royals were killed. HOWEVER, it seemed the Royals STILL had the Granilith. The heir situation is unknown and left to speculation (too bad we didn't get more insight on that from FMax - especially considering Max's "heir" is seemingly so important in this storyline). It also took 14 years to kill just TWO of the Royals - just a partial bit of Kivar's seeming demands. When in this new timeline - Kiv has 2 of the 3 things he wants (and it didn't take 14 years to get them either) AND a traitor Royal to top it off (one of the Kings, dupe Zan, is also dead).

So... we have this all new whizbang timeline where "bad guy" Kivar seemingly now has TWO out of the THREE things he wants (heir & granilith). He could easily just send someone else 1000x more powerful than the podsters (like Nikolas - who is apparently still alive as we saw in MITC) and assassinate the Royals while they're still on Earth. It would honestly be illogical if he didn't go this route (logic - yes, I know, a word that doesn't coincide well with Roswell, hmpf). He wants a public execution on Antar? Why is the way they die so important? All that *should* matter is that they're dead and Kiv has no other opposition to the throne. Anything else would honestly be too James Bondian villain (aka, extremely stupid). Doesn't really provide a lot of storylines for S3 if the hybrids are dead. UNLESS the "deal" isn't everything it seemed OR those really were Kivar's demands and they're STILL not met (no baby? no Granilith? He has neither?). If Kivar has the baby and Granilith... I really don't know where the story can go in S3. So something MUST be severely amiss here or there just won't be very much of a Roswell with Max, Michael and Isabel all dead.

Melodious

Bravo!!!!!!! You should get a standing ovation for this post. I mean it was so good the hairs on the back of my neck are standing on end. I really like your insights on a lot of this stuff. Your brain would be a great one to pick. Take that as a compliment.

Max: "This isn't over Tess"

After re-reading the "Destiny Dialogue," I have some general speculations.

Zan was the leader. His father died and put Zan in power. (In MITC, Larek lists events as father's funeral, Zan's coronation, Zan's wedding.) Zan was crowned and married (in that order? Perhaps even on the same day). Zan worked hard and the planet flourished, but the society still had some problems and dissatisfied people, as all societies do, even if they were on the "brink of a golden age."

Kivar, a charismatic leader, tapped into those dissatisfied people and problems and turned them into reasons that Zan should no longer be king. Kivar began what he promoted as a "revolution." Somewhere along the way Kivar and Vilondra became an item. Either they truly fell in love from opposite camps (Romeo and Juliet?), Vilondra agreed that Zan was doing a bad job, OR Kivar just used Vilondra to get close to Zan and/or potentially create an heir of royal blood. So Kivar, with Vilondra's betrayal of her brother, succeeded in defeating Zan.

Aside to this, some believed that Zan's second-in-command, Rath, would have been the better leader and could have resolved the conflict. But loyal Rath would not betray Zan.

In the end, the Royal Four were killed. (Since all four were killed, this makes me believe that Vilondra was a pawn in Kivar's plans.) Before capture and enslavement, Zan and Vilondra's mother still managed to gather enough resources to save the essences of her beloved children and their current and future spouses and send them to earth with "protectors" she believed she could trust. Kivar found out and immediately sent supporters (the Skins) after the them.

Kivar had rallied enough support to gain the throne. But once he acquired real power, his true colors began to show and he only magnified the problems that existed. He imposed slavery on those who opposed him and/or the "lesser classes/races." Kivar is an evil dictator that remains on the throne.

Yet, after time, Kivar knows that he will not maintain power forever--because he will die or because he fears the people will eventually defeat him in a new revolution. So, he realizes that he needs the revered granilith to earn this support and/or he needs Zan's true heir that Kivar can raise under his philosophies to carry out his reign. This happens about ten earth-years after the podsters were sent to Earth. Somehow Nacedo and Kivar communicate (via the skins?) and strike the infamous deal.

Nacedo knows he's being hunted by the FBI and the podsters aren't even hatched yet. He would have to wait until they were biologically mature enough to produce the required child. He also prepares to enact these plans by raising Tess separate from the other three, waiting patiently until it was time to introduce her to the others.
----------

Whew! Well, I'm sure there's plenty of holes in this theory. I've been reading about the histories of some Latin American countries where one leader gets replaced by another and then another through shifts in philosophy and rise and falls of power within the popular classes. The Antarian conflict seemed to make a little more sense with some of that background.

Feedback?

Well I have only one thing to feed off of on this post and that is the fact that you say that Necado made the deal with Kivar via the skins. Well if that's true then why did the skins kill Nacado. Another thing is if Necado made the deal with Kivar why was he still helping out the pod squad. Like in White Room why did he tell Michael that his powers were human just 1000 years advance or whatever and why was he dropping them clues and helping them out. I could understand him warning them about the "communoicators" because everyone knows if you tell someone not to do something their going to anyway, which explains them useing the orbs even after Necado says to do it at their own risk. Well I Don't know, but it is all a little complicated.

I finally have an image of the Crashdown Café symbol on the restaurant doors:

Any thoughts on how it compares to the "Saturn" symbol?

Also - OT - but somewhat tied in - I thought the news about the Navajo Code Talkers was very interesting - in light of the similarities of the alien language to some of the Indian characters we have seen - I just thought this is interesting. If only the writers would bring back the Indian connection to the show - of course, I would still like to see an "ancient civilization" connection weaved into the show - with Liz somehow connected to that connection - but ...?? One can still hope can't they?

'night all!
Zero
I Shall Believe! :lvoe:
FAN!

Does anyone know more about this? Or know about where (on the web) there is more information about Native American languages and symbols?

Has anyone else noticed why Max is the only one that noticed Tess after emerging out of the pods (what we later discover when Tess shows up to town during FOUR SQUARE where her natural origin is put into place by max) That doesn't make sense. Yeah they lose Michael, but that's after they have already seen each other and have left the chamber. Maybe Tess didn't hatch at the same time as the other three (Ma/Mi/Iz) or maybe they hatched sooner then they were supposed to. Now I think that that sounds a little off. She's the last to hatch and manages to obtain the bad girl/ evil villain role. I think that maybe, like it was previously said, Necado was meant to find Tess alone in the pod chamber in order for the plan to eventually take the form in which it did. However she was the last to hatch and the last to arrive in Roswell. And what makes her think that when she arrives on their home planet with the baby (if there is one) Kivar won't get rid of her after her child is born. I mean what good is she after the child is born. She can't possibly go back to earth and expect Max and them to welcome her with open arms now can she? I don't think so. But then again the one alien who betrayed them is the one alien with the greatest power of them all, Mindwarp. So can she mind warp them all into thinking that she's still the sweet innocent little girl that came to Roswell only seeking out her destiny to be with Max. I doubt it, but she managed to mindwarp Alex into decoding the book with no visible change in his character upon returning to Roswell, while she mindwarped Kyle into not only forgetting that Alex was in his house the day of his death, but the fact that he loaded Alex's body into a car thinking that Alex was nothing more than a duffel bag. C'mon now, how twisted is that. Oh yeah and lets not forget she can erase memory (Maria's mother in OFF THE MENU). So will Kivar use Tess as bate or just be off with her head. And this sort of goes with this whole Future Max alternate timeline thingy. If it was said by Future Max that if Tess left the world would end. Well with that I guess we should be preparing for eternal distruction cause if they didn't notice Tess did leave.Maybe not because of the reasons stated in TEOTW, but she did leave. And all that crap about how she was essential to their surviving is a load of crap too because if she is on the enemy side then her powers are now forbidden, untouchable and therefore useless to the pod squad. It's amazing that all this bad stuff is happening and if you look at it the podsters still have the same powers they all started with, with the exception of maybe Max who can heal and now has that new green sheild thing goin on. So what if Izabel can dreamwalk people while their awake. What good is that gonna do in the greater conflict and if I remember correctly Tess couldn't even mind warp Larek who is an alien on their supposed planet who was so called best friends with Max. And Michael just barely tapped into his powers this season, No? (i mean controlling them wise, which was learned by none other than Tess) Leaving Tess as the only one who has the overall grand power of mind warpping and Erasing memories. I mean, who could ask for anything more? Try this on for size. When the pod squad arrived on Earth they were in the form of six year old children. In one of the first couple eps. of the first season Liz's quetion to Max is how could they be the age they are now if the spaceship landed in 1947? He answers by saying he doesn't know and that when they hatched from the pods they were in the form of six year olds or something to that extent. Why would they make them evolve on Earth in a child-like state. Why not just make them I don't know 20 or something. Unless they wanted to make sure they had enough time to gain the wisdom they needed to go home and save the planet or because them interacting with humans,certain humans (liz,maria & alex) are indeed the greater power that they need in the long run to evetually go home. Reality check: Granolith = only way home.So once again; how do our beloved podsters make it home. And is Liz really the fifth alien. Yeah she has powers because Max healed her, but where does that leave Kyle? And Kyle mentions in TEOTW that he keeps getting flashes of Max Evans naked, which we never see? And he's getting these so-called flashes without having to kiss (yuck!!) or come into physical contact with Max. Even so Liz's powers are by far the most advanced as we see in MitC. And was it me or did she have a series of flashes in Departure when she figures out that Tess was evidently the one who killed Alex. Or how about this. Why didn't Tess mind warp Liz after Liz started to freak out after Alex's death.And Liz looked like she was diliberatly blaming the pod squad for this great loss. Is Tess afraid of Liz or what? Well my train of thought has lost its track of thinking, but when it gets back I'll be glad to give you more of what I think. So hit me with some feed back.

Okay. It's the little things that get me excited. Especially, when it's past my bedtime.

'Night All.

I think it's generally understood that Tess hatched later than the other three. I think (well, at least I thought before the whole Nacedo-Kivar deal was announced) that Max, Michael, and Isabel had hatched earlier than they were supposed to. Their protector should have been there when they hatched, but he had 40 or 50 years to wait, so he went on to do other things with the intent to be there at the scheduled time of hatching. But when he got there three were gone and only Tess was left. He sought out the other three, but found they were safe with families (I think one can assume that social services would have put Michael in a safe situation at first). So Nascdeo could just seek them out again later when they matured. Now I think he made his plan with Tess and waited until they were physically mature enough to create the baby as part of the deal.

quote:And Kyle mentions in TEOTW that he keeps getting flashes of Max Evans naked, which we never see? And he's getting these so-called flashes without having to kiss (yuck!!) or come into physical contact with Max.

I think Kyle's comment about naked Max flashes was a joke to lighten the mood. However, I wouldn't have minded seeing a few of those flashes myself...

quote: Why didn't Tess mind warp Liz after Liz started to freak out after Alex's death.And Liz looked like she was diliberatly blaming the pod squad for this great loss. Is Tess afraid of Liz or what?

I think, as part of Liz's powers (?) or importance or ??? that Tess couldn't mindwarp Liz. She's immune. Otherwise, I think Tess would've tried something on her at the end of S1 when Tess was making her initial move on Max.

Gotta run!

From TWR:
MICHAEL: I’ve been looking for you for a long time.
NASEDO: Not as long as I’ve been looking for you. Now you’re about to get yourselves killed.
I understood from Nasedo's words that he didn't locate them before. True, difficult to believe. Three kids of 6 years old found at the same time, even if not together, near the crash area. Wasn't difficult to spot. But that's what Nasedo says.
ITA about Kyle kidding on Max naked visions.
Ciao. Elena

I'm off to go camping (in the rain as usual for our "drought") and will not be able to start Thread #50 - Much to my disappointment! However, Shapeshifter will start it tonight IF we don't reach 250 until then ... IF we reach it before then, whoever starts it - PLEASE CUT AND PASTE THE FOLLOWING AT INTO THE FIRST POST! THANKS!! Zero

Welcome to the Table of Contents to the Introduction to the 50th thread of the continuing discussion of "Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology."

The Introduction became so long, Shapeshifter graciously agreed to host it on a website. Below is the Table of Contents to the Intro with links! Hopefully, this will continue to make this Thread accessible to everyone interested in Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology. The Intro includes summaries of all our past discussions, so is well worth reading if you are NEW to our thread! The Intro has been up-dated to reflect observations, clues, discussions and theories through Departure and the end of Season 2. (All of which have added to our belief in Liz’s strength, the Hero’s Journey she is on and importance of Liz to the aliens –whether they know and appreciate it or not!) The newly revised Intro has a few tweaks to be made for “smiley faces” to be added, but all the “words” are there! So, HAVE FUN reading the Intro, and hopefully, it will refresh your memory about a specific topic or a specific date that causes you to think up some new theory! The links make that much easier! (THANK YOU Shapeshifter!) Major changes are “starred” for ease of reading if you don’t want to read the entire thing!

There is never a dull moment on this Thread! We appreciated the refocus during the end of Season 2 on Liz’s importance to the storyline! (Thank you JK and RM! ) Even though Heart of Mine, Cry Your Name, It’s Too Late & It’s Too Bad, Baby It’s You, Off The Menu and Departure (which I collectively refer to as the “Stepford Max” Chronicles in the new Intro) had many inducing scenes, we were provided tons of stuff to chat about and dissect! !! Plus – we have seen so many newbies joining into the discussion this summer - which is wonderful!

Feedback is always welcome! Just PM me.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Background

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY!

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz's importance to the Pod Squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! (Especially lately!) We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember – NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome!

Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection

Consequence of the Connection - the Change?

Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really?

Granolith - How does it fit in?

Destiny - Liz and Max!

Follow Your Heart

Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

Chakras

Einstein's Light Cone

Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV

The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up!

The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things?

The Catalyst - Liz!

Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in?

Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run"

Hero Journey - Liz's Path

Grandma Claudia - the first connection?

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection?

Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars!

Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz?

Yin/Yang – Liz/Max

Skins - What lies below the surface?

Shapeshifters - Are there more than one?

Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation

Mythology!

Dates

Dates seem to be of extreme interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research. If you find a date I’ve missed or see one that is wrong – PM me with the change and where you got your information! I’m always looking for new dates!

In Summary

Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff, crew or UPN reads this or the Intro), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!"

To have the opportunity for a Season 3 on UPN is WONDERFUL, and this show has the potential to be another “X-files” with intimate relationships IF done right!

A couple of general Thread "Rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed – I can’t emphasize this enough as we move towards the beginning of Season 3), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions/preview and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. If you know what a preview “really means” due to spoilers, please DON’T tell us – let us speculate – we will find out soon enough! And discussion of the new book “Loose Ends” is now okay that Season 2 is over – though you might hold some stuff back for those of us who still have to read it! Thanks!

As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz whose life ended too soon - said - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)! Liz found the TRUTH, and will avenge his death! (Tess – beware – you have no idea what you have released in the B*#@h!)

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Sieg heil.

quote:and in one of your previous writings, you stated "the Golden age" well what is the goldnen age- that is a descriptive ambivilant statement.

Well since it was basically a "descriptive ambivalent statement" in the show too (as pretty much every other statement made by "aliens" in this show), I thought I was in safe waters. I guess I was wrong.

quote:and maybe for her, she liked war and there was suppose to be this major war and zan stopped. it did you pause to even consider that?

When you say "her"... I presume you mean Ava, Zan's bride. Perhaps she was a war-monger trying to influence her husband for the worse, as you seem to portray her (Reggie, where are you?). However, I doubt it; or if she was that bad, I can't think Zan would have been too far behind her. I'm more inclined to think there was an overall degredation in Zan's kingdom (which obviously included Zan and all the other Royals, as well as Ava) as opposed to one big bad wolf blowing the straw house down.

quote:if we were to take all the small glimpes and piece them together, we might have maybe 45minutes worth of maxs home planet and that is including both season 1 and season 2.

More like 5 minutes, if even. They call them *flashes* for a reason.

quote:i am not here to negate all of your previous writings, like i stated in my first response, i think you have some good valid points, but then again at this point that is all they are. points.[/B]

Uhm. Thanks? I never claimed they were anything else but "points". I'm the first to admit I *stretch* with some of my posts. I've never stated my theories or specs as fact. I'm sorry if that's the impression I gave off.

Melodious

roswell_queen e-mailed me her picture and I put it on my website. I don't know where she got it from. I will try to post it below:

Or you can view it at http://www.geocities.com/asbrown74/DB-Trans-2.html

It's a much clearer image of the Destiny Book Translation than I had been able to get before. I will do my best to post what it says on my website soon.

THANKS ROSWELL QUEEN!!

I still can't read the words under the title symbols. Help! Anyone?

(There are six characters at the top, and I can't read the translations beneath them.)

You are the royal four. Zan the king. Ava his queen. Vilandra his sister. Rath, his counselor. You were created from the genetic material of your alien predecessors and human subjects. You were given human form so that you could live safely on the planet undetected until the time comes for your return. You have been given the granilith, a transport between this planet and Antar. You have been given communication technology which will allow you to access information from your true home. The chamber containing your incubation pods and the granilith has been hidden away from human settlement. It can only be accessed by the four of you. You have been provided with a guardian who will protect you from danger and keep you hidden from your enemies both human and Antarean.

A fixed sequence of events recurs from one abduction report to another. The story consists of eight possible episodes—capture, examination, conference, tour of the ship, journey, or otherworldly journey, theophany (?), return, and aftermath. Few reports contain every possible episode, but when it appears, it usually assumes the same relative position. That is, examination precedes conference and conference precedes otherworldly journey. Fidelity to this sequence characterizes 54(?) of the 143(?) reports in the 1947(?) study.

This rigid order extends to events in the capture, examination, and return episodes as well. In a sequence of escalating strangeness the subject sees a UFO in the sky or light streaming into the [finger blocks] bedroom window, then notices a stillness or silence. Then [finger blocks] to lose volition and mental control as paralysis or uncharacteristic behaviors take over. Beings appear [cut off] the abductee to the craft often with a sense of [cut off] ground. Entry into the ship is frequently [cut off] occasion for a momentary lapse of consciousness [cut off]

The examination begins soon after [cut off]

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Too much is cut off at this point to make sense of it. (Not that it makes much sense anyway.)
I can't read any more than that, but some words stand out here and there.

It's weird. The first paragraph sounds like its telling them all about who they are and the granilith, but the rest that we can see seems only to talk about abduction reports. It makes me think that maybe the text was taken from somewhere else. FBI reports? I'll have to check out the silverhandprint site.

I'd love to hear any thought or feedback anyone has. Thanks again, Roswell Queen!

The reason why I ask is that Tess's card house started to fall down after the OTM. What conditions must exist in order for powers to be damaged. Michael still seems able to blow stuff up, Isabel could still do things in the later episodes, Max could connect with the "baby" in Baby It's Pooh. In order for this theory to fly, Tess must have done something different than Max, Isabel and Michael.

I can scratch off the idea that just simple exposure harms the ability of powers. Isabel did not try to use her powers to protect herself and she seems to be okay. Michael's attempt at powers to protect himself and Isabel in OTM was unsuccessful. Max too also said that he could not use his powers. So, simple use, would seem not to cause permanent damage.

We know when intially activated, the pentagon physically harms the podsters. So, consider Tess using her powers while the pentagon was activated? What if she taped into that unlimited energy she found when she destroyed the Skins? She overcame the pentagon's activation and Brody's crowded mind, and planted an image into Brody's head. Demetrees Rock - Zan meeting Ava. Brody said he could finally remember with such clarity. (Maybe because he was just getting the mindwarp?) Unfortunately, overcoming the pentagon has consequences, and that is damaged powers. They don't work as well as they used to and start failing.

Tess starts seeing problems with Alex's mindwarp. He regresses into old habits (renewed interest in Isabel). Kyle's mindwarp is starting to go too. And Max, what if he realizes that the vision he got from Brody (an unexpected benefit for Tess) was also a mindwarp. Maybe this is why the "baby" was sick. It's environment (Tess) was poisonious (sick body) after all. --- I personally think that the sick baby was Tess's manifestation of her corriding body and powers.

Which leds me to think that others will be waking up from Tess's mindwarps too. Remember, Tess clearly said, "I know what I can do." What if the FBI agents remember they were tricked and how it happened? What if there are other adolescents and adults out there that got in her way and she "erased" their alien related memories??

This bucket holds water for me - but I am looking forward to someone making a hole.

10 PLAGUES OF EGYPT / MAX'S "MEMORIES" and EXPERIENCES, latter S2:

"Roswell", however, is sort of a conundrum. I see Max as *both* Rameses AND Moses. The persecutor and the liberator.

Zan = Pharaoh Rameses
Max = Moses
Tess = Nefretiri (sp? - the Queen, Rameses wife)
Liz = Tzipporah (Moses' wife)

Max has to overcome the Rameses within him to fulfill his destiny? By Tess's side, he reverts back to "Rameses", a (callous, but powerful) king... by Liz's side, he becomes "Moses", a liberator? -- which is more important, the alien side or the human?).

Hmmm, such interesting reading indeed. I was reminded of something I had read in my little bible version about past Sumerian/Egyptian/Moses.

In a family intrigue worthy of a soap opera, Abraham's first son, Ismael, was born to an Egyptian servant named Hagar because Abraham's wife, Sarai, was barren... Even though it was her own scheme, Sarai mistreated Hagar who fled. According to GENESIS 17:17, it was about this time we are told that Jehovah changed his follower's name from Abram (Exalted Father) to Abraham (Father of Nations) and ordered all male children circumcised. Abraham was promised a lineage that would rule over many nations including Egypt and those of Mesopotamia. Sarai's name was changed to Sarah (Princess), who soon gave birth to Isaac, the second born son...etc.etc. Apparently Isaac carried genetic traits gained though Sarah that were thought superior to those of Ishmael. It was in this dynasty that passed secrets and traditions of the Sumerians from Abraham to Moses.

So, to be Egyptian or not to be Egyptian that is the question . Humans or Antarians. Well just got me thinking wouldn't it be presidented a great reborn dynasty if you got the ultimate superhuman alien baby complete with brain tattoos and royal blood ? Imagine if they not only needed the baby to be cloned of their Antarian royal lineage but to have mated with royal lineage.

Perhaps the granolith was much more than just a machine but a myth of a dynasty therefore having great importance. Think a sort-to-speak an Noah's Ark...only those who hide it happen to be bloodline of say a Jesus or a Moses ...or better yet of both ? I see Liz's family perhaps coming to play here since it is beyond obvious obviousness Max's family is pure ness cruel, cruel, cruel. the only way God would ensure a prosperous pact with any of these s would be making one utterly "tolerable".... if thats even possible . Max surely has the base for having a human heart worthy of praise. Lets pray he finds it soon again.
{Lights a candle for Season III }

I would see it as perhaps Tess might have been like the first wife having accepted the pact to have a human bare her children (Liz) since hybrid aliens that they are she couldn't bare him any. Only she ends up hating Liz because Max falls in love with her? So many ways you could play that biblical coin...

Love your posts Melodious. I think God would surely bless the heir coming from a good hearted lineage over 'good blood' don't you think?

Happy 50th Lizmythers !!!

in that case his human side is more dominant in making decisions......

so to not repeat hisory all ova again micheal and max should sit down have a little chat and try to figure out a way to make peace......giving some of the desicion making to micheal

Remember me? It's been awhile since I've posted, summer time keeps me busy.

healersbabe: Your post made me think of something.
Tess told Max on Departure that the plan was, to return home with YOUR CHILD and deliver the three of you to Kivar. What if Tess and Nasedo misunderstood what Kivar wanted. What if he wanted Liz and Max's child, not Tess and Max's. I wonder if Kivar will make Tess get back to earth and this time make sure Liz and Max cement.

Evid

I'm just posting right now to say, I think there are several of us awaiting for the Magical 250th post. What do you think?

quote:Originally posted by Evid:
Tess told Max on Departure that the plan was, to return home with YOUR CHILD and deliver the three of you to Kivar. What if Tess and Nasedo misunderstood what Kivar wanted. What if he wanted Liz and Max's child, not Tess and Max's. I wonder if Kivar will make Tess get back to earth and this time make sure Liz and Max cement.

What if "the three of you" actually means Max, Liz, and child? I like this theory! Tess messed up

Evid

AHA! Now thats a Season III I could look forward to watching !! Good idea!! dreameratheart Works with me too

I can see it now...

nla good idea !

Since its on a new network now, with new writers, it might be a good idea to see a complete compilation to them as well.