Welcome to the Table of Contents to the Introduction to the 50th thread of the continuing discussion of "Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology."

The Introduction became so long, Shapeshifter graciously agreed to host it on a website. Below is the Table of Contents to the Intro with links! Hopefully, this will continue to make this Thread accessible to everyone interested in Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology. The Intro includes summaries of all our past discussions, so is well worth reading if you are NEW to our thread! The Intro has been up-dated to reflect observations, clues, discussions and theories through Departure and the end of Season 2. (All of which have added to our belief in Liz’s strength, the Hero’s Journey she is on and importance of Liz to the aliens –whether they know and appreciate it or not!) The newly revised Intro has a few tweaks to be made for “smiley faces” to be added, but all the “words” are there! So, HAVE FUN reading the Intro, and hopefully, it will refresh your memory about a specific topic or a specific date that causes you to think up some new theory! The links make that much easier! (THANK YOU Shapeshifter!) Major changes are “starred” for ease of reading if you don’t want to read the entire thing!

There is never a dull moment on this Thread! We appreciated the refocus during the end of Season 2 on Liz’s importance to the storyline! (Thank you JK and RM! ) Even though Heart of Mine, Cry Your Name, It’s Too Late & It’s Too Bad, Baby It’s You, Off The Menu and Departure (which I collectively refer to as the “Stepford Max” Chronicles in the new Intro) had many inducing scenes, we were provided tons of stuff to chat about and dissect! !! Plus – we have seen so many newbies joining into the discussion this summer - which is wonderful!

Feedback is always welcome! Just PM me.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Background

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY!

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz's importance to the Pod Squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! (Especially lately!) We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember – NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome!

Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection

Consequence of the Connection - the Change?

Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really?

Granolith - How does it fit in?

Destiny - Liz and Max!

Follow Your Heart

Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

Chakras

Einstein's Light Cone

Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV

The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up!

The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things?

The Catalyst - Liz!

Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in?

Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run"

Hero Journey - Liz's Path

Grandma Claudia - the first connection?

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection?

Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars!

Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz?

Yin/Yang – Liz/Max

Skins - What lies below the surface?

Shapeshifters - Are there more than one?

Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation

Mythology!

Dates

Dates seem to be of extreme interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research. If you find a date I’ve missed or see one that is wrong – PM me with the change and where you got your information! I’m always looking for new dates!

In Summary

Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff, crew or UPN reads this or the Intro), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!"

To have the opportunity for a Season 3 on UPN is WONDERFUL, and this show has the potential to be another “X-files” with intimate relationships IF done right!

A couple of general Thread "Rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed – I can’t emphasize this enough as we move towards the beginning of Season 3), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions/preview and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. If you know what a preview “really means” due to spoilers, please DON’T tell us – let us speculate – we will find out soon enough! And discussion of the new book “Loose Ends” is now okay that Season 2 is over – though you might hold some stuff back for those of us who still have to read it! Thanks!

As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz whose life ended too soon - said - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)! Liz found the TRUTH, and will avenge his death! (Tess – beware – you have no idea what you have released in the B*#@h!)

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Style

fyi, it looks like someone started a Liz's Importance thread on the Shiri board. Just to let y'all know.

Evid, Qfanny and Dreameratheart... ITA. Perhaps Tess/Nasedo were mistaken in Kivar's demands... or maybe Kivar himself? Kivar doesn't realize Liz's true importance/connection to Max (whatever that may be)... but perhaps that was discovered in the original translation of the Destiny Book (Liz in the DB? A prophecy?)? A part of the translation Tess wasn't made aware of... but Kivar IS aware of it? Kivar will now attempt to pair up Liz/Max (by whatever means necessary... emissarying Max? Forcing Tess to emissary Liz?) in order to get Liz pregnant by Max and obtain the heir? Then abduct pregnant Liz?

Nice thoughts, but I'm not sure how feasible they are. Although, like I said...nice thoughts

Melodious

I think it has to do more with the skins themselves. I have them at home and they are crusting away. Messy things really.

Also, Zero - I was comparing your timeline against the timeline we had before season two started. WOW!!! I didn't realize just home many dates we added over the last 8 months, but it's huge.

One thing that I find interesting that, the deaths of the Privates (Sof47) happens just of few months before the birth of Edward Hubble. Could Hubble be the reincaration of on of these privates killed by the episode? Perhaps his obsession with Sheila's death by an alien is some sort of karma... Might explain how he got visions from Sheila during that kiss.

Oh well, thanks maxcedo for starting the thread. hehehehe

. Question for you all though - do you think that Tess's powers were damaged by the pentagon's activation - and if yes - can the pentagon not only prevent powers, but over time and exposure, remove them?
The reason why I ask is that Tess's card house started to fall down after the OTM. What conditions must exist in order for powers to be damaged. Michael still seems able to blow stuff up, Isabel could still do things in the later episodes, Max could connect with the "baby" in Baby It's Pooh. In order for this theory to fly, Tess must have done something different than Max, Isabel and Michael.

I can scratch off the idea that just simple exposure harms the ability of powers. Isabel did not try to use her powers to protect herself and she seems to be okay. Michael's attempt at powers to protect himself and Isabel in OTM was unsuccessful. Max too also said that he could not use his powers. So, simple use, would seem not to cause permanent damage.

We know when intially activated, the pentagon physically harms the podsters. So, consider Tess using her powers while the pentagon was activated? What if she taped into that unlimited energy she found when she destroyed the Skins? She overcame the pentagon's activation and Brody's crowded mind, and planted an image into Brody's head. Demetrees Rock - Zan meeting Ava. Brody said he could finally remember with such clarity. (Maybe because he was just getting the mindwarp?) Unfortunately, overcoming the pentagon has consequences, and that is damaged powers. They don't work as well as they used to and start failing.

Tess starts seeing problems with Alex's mindwarp. He regresses into old habits (renewed interest in Isabel). Kyle's mindwarp is starting to go too. And Max, what if he realizes that the vision he got from Brody (an unexpected benefit for Tess) was also a mindwarp. Maybe this is why the "baby" was sick. It's environment (Tess) was poisonious (sick body) after all. --- I personally think that the sick baby was Tess's manifestation of her corriding body and powers.

Which leds me to think that others will be waking up from Tess's mindwarps too. Remember, Tess clearly said, "I know what I can do." What if the FBI agents remember they were tricked and how it happened? What if there are other adolescents and adults out there that got in her way and she "erased" their alien related memories??

This bucket holds water for me - but I am looking forward to someone making a hole.

I just have to say that I am very impressed. Other threads are in the hundreds and move so fast, but whenever I check them out it's mostly just snippits of conversations. Here we have 50 threads of serious (usually ) dialogue and theorizing. Good Work!

---------
I'm also re-posting from the previous thread the updated Destiny Book Translation. Roswell Queen sent me the link, so we can now post the clearer image (sorry it's a lage pic):
http://www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/2/babyits/babyitsyou189 .

Edited to add: Argh! I'm having so much trouble posting this pic. We'll see if this attempt works...
Edited Again: If all else fails, click here.

Here's what it says:
-------
THE DESTINY BOOK
(There are six characters at the top, and I can't read the translations beneath them.)

You are the royal four. Zan the king. Ava his queen. Vilandra his sister. Rath, his counselor. You were created from the genetic material of your alien predecessors and human subjects. You were given human form so that you could live safely on the planet undetected until the time comes for your return. You have been given the granilith, a transport between this planet and Antar. You have been given communication technology which will allow you to access information from your true home. The chamber containing your incubation pods and the granilith has been hidden away from human settlement. It can only be accessed by the four of you. You have been provided with a guardian who will protect you from danger and keep you hidden from your enemies both human and Antarean.

A fixed sequence of events recurs from one abduction report to another. The story consists of eight possible episodes—capture, examination, conference, tour of the ship, journey, or otherworldly journey, theophany (?), return, and aftermath. Few reports contain every possible episode, but when it appears, it usually assumes the same relative position. That is, examination precedes conference and conference precedes otherworldly journey. Fidelity to this sequence characterizes 54(?) of the 143(?) reports in the 1947(?) study.

This rigid order extends to events in the capture, examination, and return episodes as well. In a sequence of escalating strangeness the subject sees a UFO in the sky or light streaming into the [finger blocks] bedroom window, then notices a stillness or silence. Then [finger blocks] to lose volition and mental control as paralysis or uncharacteristic behaviors take over. Beings appear [cut off] the abductee to the craft often with a sense of [cut off] ground. Entry into the ship is frequently [cut off] occasion for a momentary lapse of consciousness [cut off]

The examination begins soon after [cut off]

-------

Too much is cut off at this point to make sense of it. (Not that it makes much sense anyway.)
I can't read any more than that, but some words stand out here and there.

It's weird. The first paragraph sounds like its telling them all about who they are and the granilith, but the rest that we can see seems only to talk about abduction reports. It makes me think that maybe the text was taken from somewhere else. FBI reports? I'll have to check out the silverhandprint site.

I'd love to hear any thought or feedback anyone has. Thanks again, Roswell Queen!

Becca

This bucket holds water for me - but I am looking forward to someone making a hole.

We know that the podsters' powers are limited. Max can only heal so much, or so many (LN, ARCC); Michael can only make so-big an explosion, etc. Tess can only MW so many people, for so long (S&B). It's reasonable that her ability to suppress memories may also be limited. Her house of cards was doomed from the start. Even Alex, when he came back, was beginning to "leak"; and I think that was before OTM.

This is one reason why I do not believe that Tess could be responsable for Alex's abduction. Nikolas is the only alien we know of with that kind of power...

Somehow, Liz and Tess were switched at birth. Or something like that. Liz is really the queen of Antar and is Max's wife.

*shrug* I don't think this is the case, but it IS a cute, short, little dreamer theory.

~Jenna~

The song is my FUEL--and it is called INNOCENT---here are some of the words

Satin, you know where I lie
gently I go, into that goodnight
All our lives get complicated
Search for pleasures over-rated
Never armed our SOULS
For what the future would hold
We were innocent

Angels lend me your might
Forfeit all my lives to get just ONE RIGHT
All the colors long since faded
ALL our smiles are confiscated
Never were we told
That we'd be bought and sold
We were innocent

This prayer, is for me tonight
this far down that line and still ain't got it right
Our confessions not yet stated
Our next sin is contemplated
Never were we told
What the future would hold
and that we'd be bought and sold
We were innocent

Why did I post this? Well considering the deal we have heard about that Nasedo made and the references to history repeating itself--RunLolaRun well I was just surprised how much this song fit!!!!

As for Sean is he Satin or is he and Angel LOL?

I love this song. It's a podster song all the way.

quote:As for Sean is he Satin or is he and Angel LOL?

Satan = Sean? Tess? Nasedo? Kivar? Destiny?

Take your pic

DreameratHeart: Thanks for posting the DB translation above. In concerns to "theophany"... I did a little search on the net and I came up with this. If this is what the DB indeed says, I wonder what it could mean?

THEOPHANY -- Greek, from theo- (God) + -phanein (to show oneself, appear). A theophany is when God shows up in a majestic, Almighty-ish manner; that is, in a theophany it is rather obvious that it is God who is there. The appearances of gods have been said to provoke awe, quivering, total fear, and falling as if dead, preceded by earthquakes and thunderstorms. The small quiet voice that Elijah heard qualifies as a theophany only for the Jewish or Christian or Sufi-Moslem God; even then, it is not what the term generally refers to.
From: http://www.spirithome.com/definiti.html

Webster's simply defines it as "a visible manifestation of a deity". Interesting that this would be in this alien book. The DB states a "deity" is going to (or is supposed to) "appear" to the hybrids? Or to the aliens on Antar? Or has this "deity" already appeared? Since this is the Liz Myth, I think y'all know what I'm thinking... Well, she's a goddess to me

Aliens are spiritual? Aliens are religious? Perhaps there could have been something very literal about Lonnie/Rath's religious comparisons to the Granilith?

Melodious

Thanks for the help. I added your comments to the webpage for future reference. I still can't decipher the numbers or the words in the title. One image I saw makes the words under the title symbols look like numbers. But I'm beginning to think that TPTB deliberately obscured that part of the translation.

This isn't much of a milestone for other threads, but for us mythologist, it's huge. It's the result of many hours of dialogue review, picture analysis, mythology and scientific research that has lead to many hours of GraceKeling. We have taken tweezers and analyzed every episode. "WHY?," some posters might ask. Because it's so damn fun!!! I might add that I think I'm much smarter for the effort. I've found a world that I never knew existed, and I don't mean Antar.
I think it's also wonderful that this thread has become a big research tool for many fanfic writers. I like the idea that we help talented writers improve their writing skills and entertain many fans. THANK YOU Zero for creating this amazing thread and my fellow mythologist for contributing to it.

Evid

Melodious

QUESTION!

Has there been any discussion or theory concerning the numerous references to "route 67"? If so, what have most people concluded?

Just thought I should bring it up in case no one else has.

Bye
- Marisa

Laura

Best wishes also to the Roswell cast and crew as they begin filming S3 tomorrow.

I jus saw this thread here. I havent read all of the contents, I will, I jus wanted to say im really into the mythology of Liz and i think she is an imporant aspect in Roswell.

Best wishes also to the Roswell cast and crew as they begin filming S3 tomorrow.

Thanks for the cake, man! What's the full story behind it? Is it something you had done just for us???

Also wanting to send the best wishes out to the crew and cast and everyone else!!! You guys aren't the only ones that work tirelessly for Roswell (some of your fans can vouch for that).... I am anxiously awaiting for season three, and swear to be as unspoiled as possible!

QUESTION!

[b]Has there been any discussion or theory concerning the numerous references to "route 67"? If so, what have most people concluded?

Just thought I should bring it up in case no one else has.

Bye
- Marisa[/B]

Marisa, I don't think that we have any general conclusions about the "67" sign.

I did a control F search on Zero's introduction (first clicking the background hyperlink) and found this quote....

quote:
In Departure, the number 67 is prominent in Kyle’s room (the sign post from Max to the Max where the dead Special Agent was left by Harding) – any reference to the fact that after Alex’s death, there were 7 in the Scooby Gang, but with Tess’ betrayal, there were actually only 6 true members in the Gang!

Mel, love the avatar, post, and fanart. I thought the reference to "Theophany" was part of the 'sequence of events' involved in abducting a human for experimentation--cloning, emmisarying, etc: quote:A fixed sequence of events recurs from one abduction report to another. The story consists of eight possible episodes—capture, examination, conference, tour of the ship, journey, or otherworldly journey, theophany (?), return, and aftermath. Few reports contain every possible episode, but when it appears, it usually assumes the same relative position. That is, examination precedes conference and conference precedes otherworldly journey. Fidelity to this sequence characterizes 54(?) of the 143(?) reports in the 1947(?) study.

This rigid order extends to events in the capture, examination, and return episodes as well. In a sequence of escalating strangeness the subject sees a UFO in the sky or light streaming into the [finger blocks] bedroom window, then notices a stillness or silence. Then [finger blocks] to lose volition and mental control as paralysis or uncharacteristic behaviors take over. Beings appear [cut off] the abductee to the craft often with a sense of [cut off] ground. Entry into the ship is frequently [cut off] occasion for a momentary lapse of consciousness [cut off]

The examination begins soon after [cut off]

Qfanny, give Maxcedo a big hug for me for starting Thread 50, especially if I don't make it to Covina on Aug 18th. And if you get a chance, give "Rocky Racoon" a hug to.

And Qfanny, I remember Nemo posted that cake from the Northwest gathering last year where Zero was present, right, Zero and/or Nemo? But I don't rember who made it. Darn, if I had all the threads linked at http://ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology you could search for "cake".

Goodnight all. I probably won't post again till after I get back from Sacto on Tuesday night.

I made it back from the Olympic Pennisula without getting rained on (spinkled on, but not RAINED on)!!

Have to catch up - which will have to occur later since I'm exhausted and tired - - but will catch up tomorrow!

But congrats on all the past and present posters that have help to make this such a wonderful place to post!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Okay - I can't seem to get it to "paste" - I'm so bad at this - but I'm e-mailing it to you now!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

I have a THEORY that i posted on the SA mythology thread. Im not sure if this is like it but this is on of the things ive been thinking for awhile.

I've been having this thought for awhile. What if Liz was seen as a 'good' power? In reference to fairytales the White witch/Magic defends the land against the Black witch/Magic. Liz would be fighting off the 'evil' forces. This is why I wanted a showdown with Tess and Liz. I wanted it to be good against evil..white against black.

Liz cannot only be seen as the true heir to the thrown, but a higher power. Like a goddess, as u already have referred to her as Venus.

Venus can be identified with Aphrodite, the Greek Goddess of spiritual love and embodied lust..having a powerful connection to someones emotions(max). Now Aphrodite was made from Uranus, who is the Greek personification of Heaven. And his father is Gaea father of the Earth.

I cant help but see Liz having power over both the heavens and Earth, becoming a fifth element combining all. Like u've stated before: earth/wind/water/fire.

I see her as a 'Peacemaker' closing the gap between the 'white and 'black' forces. Liz being the final high 'white'power.

White is evident thru out the show: white roses, white flashes, diamonds (5th element) i dont know if u can put mirror in there also..reflecting the white light of Liz. Its also in conjunction to the stars, being the brightest a star can be.

I dunno if u guys have talked about this already. Its jus something I've been thinking about for quite awhile. I have alot more thoughts that i would like to share.

I posted the same picture to William Sadler's board last night, and he has replied. http://www.williamsadler.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000353&p=2

Happy 50th!

I have to agree with everyone that said that although some threads are in the hundreds, this thread is 50 full of meaningful discussions, perceptive clues and clever insights! You all have come up with things that boggle my mind day in and day out and I LOVE it!

Here's to another great 50 and to SOME of it actually playing out in Season 3 .

DreameratHeart: Thanks for posting the DB translation above. In concerns to "theophany"...

Webster's simply defines it as "a visible manifestation of a deity". Interesting that this would be in this alien book. The DB states a "deity" is going to (or is supposed to) "appear" to the hybrids? Or to the aliens on Antar? Or has this "deity" already appeared? Since this is the Liz Myth, I think y'all know what I'm thinking... Well, she's a goddess to me

Melodious[/B]

Mel: You are not alone in thinking that Liz is a Goddess. I loved your post and I wanted to help build on it.
I decided to search for info on the Reincarnation of a Deity. Well this is the site that turned on my little light bulb. http://www.louisville.edu/~aoclar01/ancient/sumer/Inanna.htm
After reading this site it seems to me that Liz could be Inanna who is later transformed into Ishtar. I also did a little research on Ishtar and guess what other name she was called by? You guessed it "Aphrodite" or as we like to call her Venus. Not to mention the Queen of Heaven who also connets us to the Virgin Mary. This truly amazed me that one word from the Destiny Book connected us yet again to the Importance of Liz.

Evid

This is one reason why I do not believe that Tess could be responsable for Alex's abduction. Nikolas is the only alien we know of with that kind of power...

Qfanny - You raise an interesting thought - how does the pentagon work and how does it cause the Pod Squad's power to deactivate? I'm think of it like ion - negative and positive - and the podsters powers work only if in the "right" environment. The pentagon when activated sends out a force field of sorts that changes the environment (in the immediate area - remember Mikey G's powers worked on the outside of the UFO center, it was only when they got inside that they did not work in OTM); thus, deactivating the podsters' powers. And as Reggie points out how they seem to loss power when they overuse thier powers, maybe the pentagon "decharges" them in a way that makes it appear they don't have their powers, but really it is just that "the power source" has been deactivated. (I don't know if that make any sense at all...??) HOWEVER, I still do believe that Tess was able to use her mind contro powers to some extent in OTM - so maybe she was not sapped of all her "powers source" and able to tap into a bit. I also agree with Reggis - that Tess' web was unraveling before OTM - and that it was bond to eventually regardless - thus, the urgency to get off the planet. Also, I don't think Tess - regardless of how much she had worked on improving her powers - was capable of pulling off the entire Alex mind control/Sweden deception - it was to complex and involved, and would have required others help - like Nicko and Lonnie. I will be very disappointed if the writers leave it as if Tess did it all on her own, and never revisit the Dupes and Nicko, and their possible involvement!

BTW - Thanks again Maxedo for starting Thread #50!! We do have a great group!!

Okay - back to read and then work!!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Melodious

Okay - this is too incredible!! I wish they would use this as a Season 3 promo piece!! Beautiful Mel!!

twilightlurker - Qfanny is right - we have only discussed the highway 67 marker in reference to the numbers, and Nemo makes an excellent observation as it being a foreshadowing of the true circumstances surrounding Alex's death.

BTW - WELCOME TO ALL NEWBIES AND LURKERS STEPPING OUT TO POST!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Given a scenerio where the podster believes they are in a life and death situation, ie; mother lifts car off of pinned offspring, the podsters can also find a supercharge of energy from within. I believe that Tess learned in WO that her energy sources were possibly, unlimited. Thus the attempt at the whole Sweden thing.

Zero, I don't think that the writers will explore this question at all. As far as the sequencing of OTM to VLV, (I feel OTM was before HoM), I feel that it's entirely possible for OTM to be positioned VLV. (Unless you can think of a specific event that would make no sense in this order.) Valenti, clearly does not have a job in OTM. It's not so clear in VLV.... Valenti's employeement situation in OTM puts the events to OTM to the Hybrid episodes than perhaps we assume right now.

I don't think it took long for Alex's mindwarp to start failing after his return to Roswell.... But I still suspect that Tess was under total surprise that this happened in the first place. And I suggest that the pentagon's activation combined with her success to mindwarp Brody during the Brody/Larek situation in OTM damaged the continuity of her existing mindwarps in some manner.

Doh! Had I read the translation a little more closely, I probably would have caught that too, but I didn't unfortunately I'm going to have to agree with all of you, "theophany" was probably a reference to an abductee's experience (abductees believing the abduction as a near-death experience of some kind, etc).

Nonetheless,
Evid: Very intriguing read in concerns to the "Reincarnation of a Deity". When you mentioned Ishtar particularly, you sparked my interest. It reminds me of a poem which I included in a collage awhile back featuring Liz ("Secret of Fire" by Abdul Wahab Al-Bayati). As not to turn the Liz Myth into a fan art thread , I'm thumbnailing the collage. It's also not very mythy (but fits into your Ishtar post Evid).

Melodious

I do believe that Tess' powers are stronger than the other podsters. I'm sure that she was strengthening up the whole time she was with Nacedo but I don't understand why it seems unlikely that she had the strength to mindwarp Alex into thinking he went to Sweden.

If she can make Amy D. believe that the whole Brody incident didn't happen, it must mean she is capable of implanting specific ideas into someone's psyche that stick (at least for awhile), right? Would it have been that difficult to put the idea that Alex was in sweden into his head? I don't think that Leanna was even part of the mindwarp. Originally I assumed she was one of the skins, but when we found out she was human, I just assumed that she had been paid off. It just seemed like she was avoiding everyone a litte too much. And she did have the lease on the place that Alex was decoding the book.

So, if the only person that Tess had to mindwarp was Alex, would it have taken that much strength? I assume that it takes more strength to impress an idea on someone for longer than a few minutes. Which maybe why all her mindwarps started to backfire. Maybe she just spread herself to thin with implanting ideas into everyones head (Alex, Amy, etc.).

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I was just following the last few posts about Tess.

Mel: I'm glad you liked that site about Ishtar. I love all your fanart. I think I remember you posting the Ishtar poem on the Dreamer thread, but I can't remember what it said? I don't think Zero would mind if you posted the full size one here, right Zero?

stargaze: I agree with you that Tess MIGHT have been able to do all the controlling on her own. Remember how some of us thought she held on to the mind control by repeating the persons name? Now what was the name of the episode she did alot of the controlling in? Oh that's right, CRY YOUR NAME. That is exactly what she was doing, crying out Alex's, Max's and Kyle's name. She didn't need to go all the way to Las Cruses to control Alex, all she had to do was pick up the phone and say his name. As for Amy? Tess was too busy with Max to worrie about her, this might be the reason she came out of it so soon. She could have had Alex do all the work on the Sweden cover-up. I'm still unsure about the alien bomb, but who knows what Nasedo had in storage. To bad she didn't blow herself up.

Evid

I think that Alex started to break free from his mindwarp in around VLV and HoM. (My chronological order is as follows - HTOHL - OTM - VLV - HoM). I place OTM before VLV because Valenti is still unemployeed. It's difficult to determine if that's the case in VLV. It would seem he's regain credibility with the parents at that point. (Remember, in WAF the Roswellians were not giving him any credit whatsoever.) Now, if Tess's powers somehow got damaged due to the pentagon, that could be why Alex's Sweden trip began to fall apart. Confused and not recognizing the problem with her powers, she mindwarps Alex again, and again, until his mind is cooked. Tess may have started realizing that there was something wrong with her powers. Remember Tess's reaction in Baby It's Pooh when Liz wanted to ask her questions about her powers. Tess asked her, "What kind of questions?" (Was Liz mindwarped as well??) Maybe the reason why Tess was so calm about Liz's curiousity was because she was expecting Liz ask about the mindwarp she did on her (FutureMax). Tess even tried to shoo Max away from the conversation.

Tess always seemed to have the attitude that her powers were stronger than the others. And I don't think it's that crazy for her to be able to mindwarp a few people within a 100 radius at once, when it's possible for Larek to reach out with his mind over lightyears. But it's interesting just the same, the opinions people have presented here on this.

I totally get what you're saying QFanny and I really like your theory. This is kind of like those toy boxes for babies/toddlers, full of holes of geometric shapes. Then putting the corresponding shape blocks into the holes. Well, Tess in OTM (the way I see it based on your theory)... was kind of like using brute force to push a square through a circle's hole. She managed to get it through, but not without considerable damage to either the block or the box. In this case, the block (Tess and/or her powers, being the block). So by the time CYN hit, everything was basically going sh**house in concerns to her earlier mindwarps (namely Alex, then Kyle, Amy in there as well probably). (Human) Alex seemingly took months to finally figure out what happened to him. (Hybrid) Max - who also is a prime suspect in being a victim of mindwarp - will also take several months to figure out everything? To what ends? Will Max possibly meet the same or a similar fate as Alex? Or would his (arguably) advanced physiology save him?

The past specs that Tess was possibly getting help from Skin allies (namely Nikolas) during the duration of the last six of S2, imo, still works in your theory QF. Nikolas could have been "energizing" Tess per se in OTM, one of the hands forcing the square block through the circular opening... although Tess was going along with it, this was damaging Tess and/or her abilities considerably, etc.

Melodious

This is what I'm confused about. If T was mindwarping Alex's into believing that he went to Sweden, then why did HIS MW last so long while Amy Deluca's lasted just a day or so?

Is it because T didn't put as much "effort" into Amy's MW or is it because her powers were weakened by the Pentagon?

Personally, I think it must go back to when the Pentagon went off on Michael, but not on Max (sorry, can't remember what eppy that was). Why was that? Can the Pentagon sense the "evil within" (as Michael stated in a nearby episode, 'you heal people and I kill them' - or something to that extent)? Can we assume then that T is evil and that somewhere down the road we'll find out some evil's in Michael? Or is the Pentagon truely a detoxifying machine (for lack of a better term) and non of the Podsters have any control over it?

I'm not sure about this "Michael's = evil" theory anymore. I thought it was true mid-Season 2, but now? Well, he seems much more lovable.

Just some thoughts on a Tuesday afternoon for my fellow RBI!

Could it simply be that Tess, though powerful, had OVERUSED her powers, just like Max had in ARCC with the healing, he collapsed, he was weakening, couldn't Tess have had the same thing happening to her?

Could it simply be that Tess, though powerful, had OVERUSED her powers, just like Max had in ARCC with the healing, he collapsed, he was weakening, couldn't Tess have had the same thing happening to her?

But here is the problem I have with OTM, why didn't Tess lose her powers????

Or did her and Max get them back and we just haven't seen him use them in the eppys, prior...

But actually we did, remember, in Departure, or was that just him connecting with the Granolith, was that his powers as well??/

I think Tess's powers were more advance than all the podsters, and I think she was just "pretending" to be so surprised, remember the camera angles when Nick was talking to Max about trusting the wrong people, the camera angel went straight to her...

Acting innocent makes the deception more believable...

Qfanny - I completely get what you are saying, and it is interesting to order the episodes with VLV after OTM. BUT I still think Tess needed help - not necessarily for the Alex mindwarp alone, but there were lots of other pieces to the deception - from the acceptance letters, school files, ULC dorm registration and access, etc., not to mention how Leanna fit into all this - which we may NEVER ( !) learn about, that I believe Tess would have needed help with. Unfortunately, we may never have any explanation to how it all fell together and who the "ultimate" power behind it all was. BUT I do agree that Tess was the most powerful of the 4, and knew how to control her powers best of all - I just don't think she was acting alone at all times.

BTW - Mel - I would love to see that picture in full size. I love the occassional picture!

I know I had other comments, but can't remember, and have to work. BUT welcome to all newbies and lurkers!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

HAPPY 50th !!!!!!

Back from being MIA, but still lurking about when possible. It is so great to have this place to come to during this dry spell.

There have been some great ideas and theories discussed here even though we are waiting for the new season to start. That is why I love this place so much, so many ppl who really get into the depth of the show. I hope that the writers get back to that depth also with S3.

Keep up the great work..

4everyoung

It was you..............................

Or did her and Max get them back and we just haven't seen him use them in the eppys, prior...

They both lost their Powers when the T.A.G. was turned on, and regained them when it was turned off. If Tess hadn't lost her powers, they would have been able to get away from Brody, right?

Once the thing was turned off, Max could heal Brody, and Tess could MW Mrs. Deluca. They both got their Powers back. This is all in OTM.

Which, IMHO, is between VLV and HOM, since VLV is at the end of THC, and in HOM, Max knows that he should remember something of proto-Tess and Twilo. (He starts accept it, and Tess, when he gets a "flash" from Brody/Larek showing Tess and him together. This is while Max is healing Brody, at the end of OTM.) That's where it was supposed to have aired, BTW. And so Mrs. Deluca's MW was done before Kyle's; so she started to come out before Kyle did. I think Tess was bragging a little on her "not remembering" anything. Max is her Hero, and she was showing off a little.

I'm still not believing Tess has access to "unlimited Power". Even though Qfanny says so, and she's usually right. I think the flame-out in Wipeout was a manifestation of hysterical strength, possibly aided by the energy released when the Time Torpedo was destroyed.

The tremendous amount of work behind "Sweden" requires Nikolas's power in Las Cruces, and if he's in it, he's running the show! Tess was MWed in MitC to set this up. Which sets the timing about right...

quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
I'm still not believing Tess has access to "unlimited Power". Even though Qfanny says so, and she's usually right. I think the flame-out in Wipeout was a manifestation of hysterical strength, possibly aided by the energy released when the Time Torpedo was destroyed.

The tremendous amount of work behind "Sweden" requires Nikolas's power in Las Cruces, and if he's in it, he's running the show! Tess was MWed in MitC to set this up. Which sets the timing about right...

Reggie, I think this is a good theory. Tess could very well have been Lonnie's card and she possibly shared that with Nic and thus the MW to get what they needed. But Tess failed to some extent. She did get the granolith, but not the royals. And is the baby a MW also or is the baby even Max's? Plus, didn't Nic and Lonnie want the granolith so that they could get home? So where were they when it zoomed off to Antar? Wouldn't they have made certain that they were in it?

I just hope they don't do the "let's go off looking for the alien baby" storyline as they indicated they were going to do at the end of departure.

4everyoung

It was you...................................

Personally, I think that if my theory is true, that the MW will unravel in preportion to the amount of time it's been in place. The longer the subject has had the memory, the more they think it's real and accept it.

I bet Nicholas knew of Tess's duplicity even then.

And that's why she got off so easy in MITC.

Nicholas made the dupes let her go so she could continue her plan.

And those memories that started in OTM: They only have to be partly true for Max to believe them.

But something was definitely "off".

Style

Anyways, it takes a life for goodness, maybe longer, but evil is always here.

Style

Transcript to "Heart of Mine" is up at http://www.crashdown.com/episodes/trans_216.shtml quote:...
SEAN I've just always thought there was something about you, you know. Something special....This line always made me wonder about the "always" part--perhaps an indication that TPTB intend to follow the theory that Liz's Mythology extends back beyond the day she was shot and healed?

Another key Liz Myth line: quote:...
LIZ I don't know, I just feel Max and I going in two different directions, like, it's like we're not able to just separate? ...Also: quote:...
SEAN But the thing is, that if we're so different then why do I feel so much every time I look at you? I mean it's not completely one sided is it? This town. Every body's always looking at me, like... there's Sean, just got back from juvie. What's crazy Sean gonna do next? And that's what I figured out about you. You're not that different. I mean this whole arrangement you have with Max, it's like you're not together but you're not apart. I mean I bet you can't even talk to me without wondering what Max is gonna think about it. But meanwhile, you're not getting what you need from him, are you? You're suffocating Liz. We both are...I'm not sure about Sean, but "suffocating" usually indicates that someone is starved for oxygen, an element without which one will die. So, if Liz is 'not getting what she needs from Max,' perhaps she will die? Remember her remark in SH about the glowing hickies being caused by separation from him?
But then at the end of HOM, after Liz sees Tess & Max kissing, and she goes to the bowling alley and lane walks: quote:...
And I'm writing again. I'm feeling. I'm breathing. The last scene shows her at home, writing in her journal.

Could it simply be that Tess, though powerful, had OVERUSED her powers, just like Max had in ARCC with the healing, he collapsed, he was weakening, couldn't Tess have had the same thing happening to her?

I definitely think it's possible that T could have simply overused her powers, in which case the Amy Deluca MW wasn't as effective as Alex's, BUT when I referring to the "evil-within" I meant about the pentagon "going off". There was a definite difference between the affect the Pentagon had on Michael (in AK - as Zero mentioned - when Brody was holding in) than on all the Podsters in OTM.

I can't quite put my finger on it, but somehow there has to be a relation between the sudden attack in AK on Michael, T's presence in OTM with the Pentagon and the apparent disabling of powers in OTM. I just can't quit figure out how it all fits together.

One thought though.. I'm not sure T ever REALLY lost her powers in OTM. Part of her scheme really - how would it look if SHE hadn't lost her powers and everyone else had?

I'm not sure we ACTUALLY know that Nick is alive, do we? I know we saw that Nick-look-a-like at the end of WO on the skateboard, but we haven't actually seen him, have we?

I think he IS alive, but again, I'm not sure "everyone" knows he is.

Oh.. and on this? I think she DID MW Max into thinking he loved her. All those "mid retrieval technics"? CRAP! She was MW'ing him into THINKING he remember when in reality she was implanting memories of things she wanted to happen. IMHO.

Once the thing was turned off, Max could heal Brody, and Tess could MW Mrs. Deluca. They both got their Powers back. This is all in OTM.

Which, IMHO, is between VLV and HOM, since VLV is at the end of THC, and in HOM, Max knows that he should remember something of proto-Tess and Twilo. (He starts accept it, and Tess, when he gets a "flash" from Brody/Larek showing Tess and him together. This is while Max is healing Brody, at the end of OTM.) That's where it was supposed to have aired, BTW. And so Mrs. Deluca's MW was done before Kyle's; so she started to come out before Kyle did. I think Tess was bragging a little on her "not remembering" anything. Max is her Hero, and she was showing off a little.

I'm still not believing Tess has access to "unlimited Power". Even though Qfanny says so, and she's usually right. I think the flame-out in Wipeout was a manifestation of hysterical strength, possibly aided by the energy released when the Time Torpedo was destroyed.

The tremendous amount of work behind "Sweden" requires Nikolas's power in Las Cruces, and if he's in it, he's running the show! Tess was MWed in MitC to set this up. Which sets the timing about right...

Reggie, totally forgot all of that Guess that was "erased" from my brain
But there is one point I don't quite understand...are you saying that OTM was suppossed to air before HOm, right...because that makes sense as well...

Remember, in HOM, Max says tells Liz that he is remembering things from his past life, that's because of the flash that he had in OTM...that's why Maria said t=in the intro to OTM, that this was something that she had looked over because she didn't think it was important...

I think she was trying to show us either two things...

1)Tess strong ability to mindwarp and erase memories.

Or

2)Why Max said that he was remembering Tess in the first place, the first real time he remembered her...

Now, as to this being an implanted image, highly possible, and debateble t=but most likely possible...only because she got to Brody/larek brain first....

Or maybe she was the one that gave Brody?larek that image, so then he could pass it on to Max??? Taht is highly possible as well...

That way Max would belivev it more...plus it could explain why the images was in human form....

But the thing is, that if we're so different then why do I feel
so much every time I look at you? I mean it's not completely one
sided is it? This town. Every body's always looking at me, like...
there's Sean, just got back from juvie. What's crazy Sean gonna
do next? And that's what I figured out about you. You're not that
different. I mean this whole arrangement you have with Max, it's
like you're not together but you're not apart. I mean I bet you can't
even talk to me without wondering what Max is gonna think about
it. But meanwhile, you're not getting what you need from him, are
you? You're suffocating Liz. We both are..

Personally, this part is a farce, why, because Sean really does not know WHY LIZ IS NOT GETTING WHAT SHE NEEDS FROM MAX...so I never really paid attention to that part because Sean doesn't know the whole staory...see that's why Liz can't be too angry at Max about "going" to Tess because she help fuel the fire so to speak

See, my thing with that part is simply this...Liz didn't tell Sean that actually she is pushing Max away, and Max doesn't even know why, so of course she's thinking of Max right hten because she feels her guilt, and she's not dealing with it...

Her talking to Max, was worse, because she wanted confirmation, but didn't get it, but she didn't exactly arrange her words so that Max would think that what she needed at that point...

At that exact moment when she ran to Sean, she wasn't heading Grandma Clauia's advice, she was running from her heart, she was running from Max!!!

Only divine intervention got them back on track, when Liz recevied her flash in Departure, right in the nick of time, hence she was open to it...

Roswell_Queen, in the cut part of Destiny, Tess does say to Liz that she could mindwarp Max into loving her(Tess) and what Liz and Max have is special, because she has watched them....

Now she tells this same thing to Max in OTM, only we get to see it, that what him and Liz have is what her and Max used to have....

But yet in Departure, she makes it clear to the audience that present-day Max does not love her, and she knows it...and she balems Liz for that...

But at last, it's not that she blames Liz because she loves Max so much, it's because it makes it harder for Tess to get him to Antar, to his death, so getting pregnant, in Tess's mind came right on time after the "break-up" of Max and Liz

So, I think Tess knew she couldn't break Max and Liz's love up, nor mindwarp her, becuase Liz is special...again her the Dupes recognized this as well....

Whew.................

I think he IS alive, but again, I'm not sure "everyone" knows he is.

I visited crashdown and MITC did take place after WO. And we see Nicolas in MITC.

Now she tells this same thing to Max in OTM, only we get to see it, that what him and Liz have is what her and Max used to have....

But yet in Departure, she makes it clear to the audience that present-day Max does not love her, and she knows it...and she balems Liz for that...

But at last, it's not that she blames Liz because she loves Max so much, it's because it makes it harder for Tess to get him to Antar, to his death, so getting pregnant, in Tess's mind came right on time after the "break-up" of Max and Liz

So, I think Tess knew she couldn't break Max and Liz's love up, nor mindwarp her, becuase Liz is special...again her the Dupes recognized this as well....

Whew.................

[/B]
Thenk you ava, I agree that Liz is different (not a full blown alien now though!) I guess to me it just seemed like that would have been a much more direct route to getting Max home.

Destiny Book
As far as this is concerned when I found the rest of the translation and mailed it to Dreamer, I took a few and read it over and over. The first thing that popped into my head (I know this is gonna sound dumb) was that the whole abduction thing in it was to tell the podsters how they got the DNA to make them Hybrids. I dunno farfetched but I am trying to work my way into being a regular on this board so I have to start somewhere!

Tess I agree that Tess mindwarped Max and gave him the memories from there home, I just don't see it any other way.
As far as her powers go I think she knew things were falling apart when Kyle remembered in Departure about Alex. That plus the heightened emotions (anxious to get home and parade the Podsters in front of Khivar) (also anxious about maybe things not working out) made her powers a little weaker? I dunno once again just thought I'd throw it out there!
Feedback please!!! I'm done!

Not only Tess knew things were falling apart, but Mike didn't even hug her goodbye, nor did she say goodbye to him...

She just made her nasty comment about "whoever is goign home, we have to go home now"

This says to things to me...

1) Mike is not Royalty, maybe his is considered one, because Rath was engaged to Vilondra, hence pending royalty, I don't wuite think it was because he was 2nd in Command, but that's MO

2) Present-Dayu Tess was never really part of the "group" the group of freinds that the six of them really were, we can delete Tess and add :ALex, so really it was seven...in the group...Tess was "accept" because she was apparently one of them and in their "royal Four"

But as part of the Pod Squad, NO! Notice the camera position when Mike tells Max that he is not going...Max begins to wak toward Mike, as if he is pulling from Tess, then look at the full shot, you see Tess of to the side, with a look of defeat? on her face(damn, I couldn't get all 3, oh Well! at least I got the King and his sister)

Anyway, I just found it really strange that the lack of a goodbye to Valenti was so obvious. And he was standing right next to him when they trashed the jeep and Iz told Valenti goodbye...!?

Any thoughts?

Liz’s behaviour since Destiny made Tess believe that she wasn’t dangerous. She walked away from Max and from her point of view never changed her mind. When Liz went to Tess in TEOTW offering to help her get together with Max, at first she didn’t believe in her good intentions but then, the things that Liz told her, convinced her and she accepted. In CYN, the episode just before ITL&ITB when the Tex occurrred, Liz attacked Max and accused him of being responsible for Alex’s death, they were as far apart as ever.
We must understand that, even if Tess sensed that the love between M/L was strong, she couldn’t possibly know how deeply they felt for one another. What’s between two persons is only known to the two of them. One, from the outside, can only guess. That’s probably why Tess didn’t MW Liz into fall out of love with Max. Elena

Exactly Elenac, same with Sean, he was only giving LIz advice based on what he thought he knew about the siutation...but he really knew nothing...just him and Tess talking out the side of their heads...

Same with the Granolith, Max may find out about FMax,but Tess will never find out...

How did I miss that? Did the Pod Squad see him? Wow - I think it's time for me to go back rewatch some eppy's.

Peace to you all,
rory_parker

P.S. What was "TPTB" mean?

P.P.S. and 4ever

I just hope they don't do the "let's go off looking for the alien baby" storyline as they indicated they were going to do at the end of departure.

Well, it's pretty much the consensus theory (this week) over on CHADs. The advantage is that it matches all of what we've seen, including Tess's condition at the end of TEOTW...

As for Nikolas and Lonnie: they had 24 hours to board The Granolyth before it departed; duing which it was unguarded most of the time. All abooooard!

As for alien babies, I doubt the writers have thought that far.

elenac:
Liz’s behaviour since Destiny made Tess believe that she wasn’t dangerous. She walked away from Max and from her (Tess's) point of view never changed her mind. When Liz went to Tess in TEOTW offering to help her get together with Max, at first she didn’t believe in her good intentions but then, the things that Liz told her, convinced her and she accepted.

Plus, in Harvest, alone in the jeep with Liz, Tess says that she could MW Max into loving her, but it wouldn't last. I truly think Tess always wanted The Real Thing. She was MWed in MitC to believe in The Plan, and so she may have "helped" Max remember. But I wonder if maybe responsability for the BEMlet wasn't supposed to substitute for the bond of True Love?

(BEMlet: a small BEM, aka Bug Eyed Monster. Another name for "Tess's Baby".)

Anyway, I just found it really strange that the lack of a goodbye to Valenti was so obvious. And he was standing right next to him when they trashed the jeep and Iz told Valenti goodbye...!?

Any thoughts?

Welcome out of lurking and to all the other newbies!

This thought made me think about the reaction between Mikey G and Liz when Mikey G destroys the pyramid bomb in the abandoned house - thus, saving Liz's life! There was a sense of recognition there - like Mikey G was just doing what came naturally - protecting Liz! Though I don't subscribe to the Liz was the alien queen theory, I still love the connection that has arisen between Mikey G and Liz occasionally (like in Missing), and wonder if there couldn't be more to it - not romantic, but in a protector sort of way. I tend to subscribe to the ancient civilization and Liz as a prophecized savior descended from the ancient civilization that is somehow connected to Max's alien predecessor's race.

Why Mikey G didn't say goodbye? I too think it might stem from his reluctance to leave in the first place and refusal to accept that he was really saying goodbye for good! BUT who knows? With all the CHADS in Season 2 it is anyones guess.

Plus - Yes, MITC does follow Wipeout, and YES, Max and Tess see Nicko in MITC - after he was supposedly incinerated by Tess' fireball. AND NO - there has NEVER been an explanation as HOW Nicko survived while the rest of the skins present didn't (apparently?)!

Well - I have a ton of work to do, plus monthly billings ( ) - which is a drag - so got to go!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

The question has come up again about how did Niko survive the fireball in wipe out. If I recall correctly, Niko had on a back pack or belly pack. When they were in the bus, Iz tried to get into it and he was real protective of it.

I have a theory that is based on what Courtney said and that was that on their planet they live in several deminsions and that she thought Niko had created a way to recreate that effect. So it would be highly possible that in Niko's belly/back pack there was another of those green rods.

There was truely a look of fear on his face when he realized that Tess is about to do something really big, but the camera goes away from him and we don't see what he does. It is possible that he had another rod which he activated thus moving himself to another deminsion and safety. CWW said he would kill his own kind, so he didn't care that the rest of the group got blown apart.

Anyway, that's always been my theory on that.

4everyoung

It was you...................................

Ooh, that's goood. I had been thinking that Nikolas wasn't really a Skin, but a Shapeshifter. As such, he might be more fire-resistant. I like your idea too.

And it was the same actor at the end, but it wasn't really the character "Nikolas" on that scooter. The Director was just being creepy, and using the kid as an extra.

And Reggie I agree with you I also think Nicholas is a shapeshifter!!!

Yeah. To change the ages of the characters at random. ... sorry, bad joke

Melodious

About Nicko in the firestorm: How about if his look of fear/horror was real, but Tess spared him because he "speaks for Kvar."

tess and the use of her power to kill the skins was very suspicious...... i think kivar had something to with it, almost like her powers were magnifyed a 1000 times like nicholas

what about how everybody was shedding.......showing signs that the skins were dyin but nicholas skin was still fresh didnt show much signs of sheeding i thoght that was wierd.

also the part where nicholas was getting into max's mind.....he saw some images but then i noticed that max must of used some sort of power to back nicholas off, and the look on nicholas face suggests that max did something stronger then nicholas could do

Just a quick thought as I'm swamped at the office today . Could Mikey G's "new found" loyalty go back to Max? In other words, since Mikey G is 2nd in Command to Max, then his job would be to protect him and keep him safe, right? Well, we all know how important Liz is to Max , so by saving Liz from the bomb in the abandonded house he has also saved Max!?

On the Nick = a skin or SS? I'm going with SS. He just appears to have too much power for a run-of-the-mill skin (is there such a thing? ). I think that 4everyoung hit on a good point about the backpack/fannypack . Could that pack contain some sort of something that allows Nick to jump from dimension to dimension at will? Or could it contain something that allows him to be invinsible? Personally, I think Nick and T are on the same side, but I also think there was something up Nick's sleeve (that T ) knew about that saved him from the burning fire ball in WO.

About Nicko in the firestorm: How about if his look of fear/horror was real, but Tess spared him because he "speaks for Kvar."[/B]

Great idea that would also show a new kind of control and a new more powerful source of her power, which would set a precidence (spelled correct?) for the Alex mind warp!

Hi kla! Thanks for responding to my post. Are you familiar with the Silverhandprint website? In the October 7th entry of her diary (posted on that site), Congresswoman Whittaker talks about figuring out that Agent Daniel Pierce was really "that shapeshifter" and says, "He knew I was following him, I had no choice but to kill him before he discovered me...he still managed to stumble away. But I know that he suffered a mortal blow. He can't last for long." (see http://www.silverhandprint.com/ufl/24.html ) So it does seem true that Nasedo was killed by the skins.

But I still don't know why!

--Esther

Just after he's killed, the attacks on the Podsters begin, each attack on its target's particular vulnerability. Isabel (Vilandra) was vain, and power-hungry. Max (Zan) wanted the trappings of power, but not the labor involved. Tess (Ava) is a Follower, a "yes-man", she obeys an authority figure. The "Plan" was imposed on her by her foster father!

Harding could have helped each podster defend themself, if he was alive. The whole season makes sense as one arc, of Nikolas trying to divide and conquer the Pod Squad. It looks like the last attack was successful... unfortunately. Tess was useful (WR, Destiny, S&B, etc.), and would be again. If they let her (or Ava). <sigh>

i have been MIA bacause i was busy and then at camp.....but i am back now and happy to see that we finally have a new thread going!!!! ****happy 50 to us, happy 50 to us, happy 50 dear Mythers, happy 50 to us**** !!!!!!!!!!

LOVE YA ALL ~ERIN~

Reggie But I wonder if maybe responsability for the BEMlet wasn't supposed to substitute for the bond of True Love?

May be, as sometimes women chose to tie up the man they love (and that don’t love them back) with a baby, resulting in a lifetime bond and a warm relationship far from being The Real Thing. And, since we all know life is not perfect, those women are even satisfied with that.
But as far as Tess is concerned, as you said in the past, her behaviour in Departure was ambivalent: on one side she obtained Max’s “love” because of the BEM but on the other side the BEM was her passage home, and death for the other 3. My theory is that she was “convinced” in MITC to take the NM3 back to Antar, may be for a greater good. When in the Granolith chamber she says “See! Look how fast you run to her defense! Why couldn't you ever feel that about me? I'm your wife, Max! I'm carrying your child!” she sounds too pi**ed to be under a MW and, first time, even a little human considering her alien attitude to both love and sex. Was she coming out of it? If that was the case, she should have also realized the dangerous situation she was in.

It’s now time for holidays with no computer, no internet, no FF. I wish you all a great summer.
Ciao Elena.

Couple thoughts on this HOT Friday..

estherterrestrial: Interesting theory about Nasedo being the alien that was caught way-back-when. It certainly would explain why he was "such a help" and so EAGER to help in WR! I think I had a similar thought when I first watched WR, but for some reason discounted it. It's possible I simply forgot, but it's also possible something I saw in later eppy's made me think other wise. Unfortunately, I can't remember what I forgot.

kla: Good point about Nasedo working for Kivar and the skins killing him - why? I think the Skins didn't know about "the deal". I always thought of Nasedo as not a "protector" but a "creepy SS" and when this "deal idea" came up in Dep, then my thoughts were confirmed. I'm also one that believes that there is another SS (tic-tac, Serena??) out there that IS the protector! So.. my thought really is that the Skins didn't know about "the deal". As you saw from Courtney and Mikey G's connection, not ALL the Skins could be trusted, so Kivar probably wanted to keep that information a secret! From an outsiders point of view, maybe whichever Skin killed Nasedo thought they were ACTUALLY helping the situation.. that Kivar would be happy about it. Of course, if the deal is truth, then *whoops*.

Steph, the only person who saw Nick, was Max and Tess because they were at the meeting, remember?

Tess shouting at Max was an act of frustration, because even at that time, she STILL was not telling him the whole truth...even up to that moment, the audience was led to believe that she was upset at Max for loving Liz...but it wasn't until Tess said, "Their not my enemies, Max" that Max had found out the TRUTH from Tess, until he figured it out...

I think Tess was a little power-hungry, thought mabye she could get some loving from Max before she delivered them to their deaths, had she been accepted, she might had felt some guilt from their deaths, but she still would had went with the plan...

Elenac, yes Sean made a good point, but at the same time, Liz could have her cake and eat it too....because up to that point in HOM, she was pulling Max back and forth, and going back and forth with Max....she asked him to take her to the prom...she holds his hand in VLV, I mean, I understand, she shold, thier life bonded partnersBut at the same time, I was just showing the fact that it's not fair to say that she wasn't getting what she wanted from Max..

But Sean did just what Tess did, he talked about the other person in a negative fashion, they both would always point out if the other on made a mistake, or would always "be" there when both Liz and Max would get hurt by each other...

If trust Sean no more than I trust Tess, and people know who juch I trust Tess

roswell_queen: ITA with everything in your post. I've been open minded to Reggie's theory about Tess beeing mindwarped, but I just can't see it. Sorry Reggie.
I for one just can't dismiss her actions on season 1. One thing that still bothers me was that box of photos on TLV. You remember the one with pictures of ONLY Max? I really thought Liz was a in trouble when Nasedo/Harding saw her looking in the box but he din't even flinch. Did he even know what was in that box? He was angry that Iz came over and even angrier when Tess took them to the pod chamber. Why? Was Tess doing all of this on her own? Nasedo didn't seem to have a clue.
She lead Max to believe that Nasedo wasn't much of a father, but then tells Lonnie and Rath that they were very close. I for one have wondered if Tess was the one who made the deal with Kivar in the first place?
Who spread the rumor about Liz and Kyle sleeping together? Who gave the yearbook to Lonnie and Rath? How did they know about Max's broken heart? Who told Rath that Maria and Michael were dating? It had to be someone on the inside, right? As for the Valenti's she used them to get closer to the pod squad. She did seem to warm up to Kyle but he was never what she wanted. She wanted off this planet, she wanted to be Queen and she would get it anyway she could. I laughed when she told Max she didn't mean to kill Alex, her reason beeing that she had to lead Max to his death. Let's just hope season 3 cleans up the mess that was season 2, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Evid

[b]roswell_queen: ITA with everything in your post. I've been open minded to Reggie's theory about Tess beeing mindwarped, but I just can't see it. Sorry Reggie.
I for one just can't dismiss her actions on season 1. One thing that still bothers me was that box of photos on TLV. You remember the one with pictures of ONLY Max? I really thought Liz was a in trouble when Nasedo/Harding saw her looking in the box but he din't even flinch. Did he even know what was in that box? He was angry that Iz came over and even angrier when Tess took them to the pod chamber. Why? Was Tess doing all of this on her own? Nasedo didn't seem to have a clue.
She lead Max to believe that Nasedo wasn't much of a father, but then tells Lonnie and Rath that they were very close. I for one have wondered if Tess was the one who made the deal with Kivar in the first place?
Who spread the rumor about Liz and Kyle sleeping together? Who gave the yearbook to Lonnie and Rath? How did they know about Max's broken heart? Who told Rath that Maria and Michael were dating? It had to be someone on the inside, right? As for the Valenti's she used them to get closer to the pod squad. She did seem to warm up to Kyle but he was never what she wanted. She wanted off this planet, she wanted to be Queen and she would get it anyway she could. I laughed when she told Max she didn't mean to kill Alex, her reason beeing that she had to lead Max to his death. Let's just hope season 3 cleans up the mess that was season 2, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Evid [/B]

Evid, your right, I always thought that Tess spreaded that rumor...she didn't have to know anybody, just causually let it slip!

I finally memorized my password, so I can post at work. Woo-hoo. However, it doesn't seem to matter, because every time I start posting, after a while they just knock me back down to 17 posts. If anyone has any idea why this is happening, please feel free to PM me.

And on to topic... When I get home, I really want to cross-reference the theophany stuff with my Jung on UFOs. When I was reading The Demonhaunted World (Sagan) he discussed aliens/UFO sightings as the natural progression from faery abductions/sightings. Now that the faery world has been discounted overall, we transmute our creative impulses toward aliens. The faery world, which was the transmutation of the worlds of gods and goddesses into a context acceptable after the advent of Christianity, had to change with science.

The upshot of this is, that alien visitations are very similar to the consciousness as god-sightings (especially the old-fashioned kind).

So Liz as prophetess? Liz as priestess/seer? Still human with a direct connection to the supernatural? The gift of prophesy was supposed to be hereditary, too (see G.C.).

just rambling--Sorry, have to go home and re-read the Liz myth summary to see if (or how often) this has been brought up.

The betrayal of the Podsters could have come by the hands of either:

Nasedo
Tess
Nasedo w/ Tess fully aware of the deal
Tess making the deal with Whitaker, Nicolas, Lonnie and Rath.

Quite frankly I believe that Tess has been at the heart of all of it. I think that the deal wasn't set 40 years ago, by Nasedo. I think that Tess made the deal with Whitaker. Whitaker was taping Liz's phone conversations. She must have been familiar (through listening to Liz's conversations with Maria) with the members of the Pod Squad. Whitaker (or another one of the Skins) killed Nasedo. It is very interesting that Max couldn't bring Nasedo back. Someone (Tess and Nasedo seem like the best answer) knew the limitations of Max's powers and killed Nasedo in a way that prevented Max from healing him. Also, why didn't Whitaker kill Isabel in Surprise? Yeah, yeah. We all think that it is because she used tess as bait to get to Izzy. I don't think so. I think that Whitaker just slapped Tess around until Izzy got there so that they could plan seeds of doubt and betrayal in Izzy's mind. Why you ask? Tess needs Max to be vulnerable so that she can mindwarp him. I think that N/L/R didn't kill Tess in NY because they were involved in the deal, too.

I also think that Tess was well aware of the fact that if she mindwarped Alex any more he would die. Alex's death delivered Max into Tess' hands. I want to be clear that I don't think that Tess was the master mind. Her life was in danger. She offered them anything in order to save her life and N/L/R supported their investment: Tess.

With all of this in mind, I DO NOT believe that part of the deal meant returning with Max's child. I know that this has been said before but this whole baby thing doesn't make sense. She finds out the morning after the Tex that she's pregnant? THEN, she discovers that the baby can't survive in the Earth's atmosphere? PALEASE!!! Tess is the one that told Max that the s had to have conventional sex in order to be pregnant. How can they be confined to some human laws of physics but not all? A one-month pregnancy? Give me a break.

What really happened was that she knew that max would only leave Liz for something drastic, so Tess made it up. Max and Tess didn't have sex. Tess knocked him out and planted those memories in his mind.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Tess: I thougth I'd find you here. (slowly moving in to kiss Max.)
Max: I want to wake up now.
Max: (with his eyes tightly closed) There's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place like home.....
Max: (bolting up in bed) No!!!!! (reaching for Liz)
Liz: Max! Max! What's wrong?
Max: (touching Liz's face) I had the worse nightmare! Tess and I were at the observatory....

Dreamer 'til I die!

But I can't see what Tess would possibly have to gain by faking the sex. In fact, faking the sex seems to make things more complicated.

But I really, really hope I'm wrong.

But I'm still believing Tess was MWed, and "innocent by reason of insanity". Why would Nikolas bargain with Tess, when he could just force her to do his bidding? And as a human on Twilo, she's nothing. She'd have to marry Kivar to be Queen, and what would interest him in a human? There's nothing in it for her, to go back "home". She gets nothing out of this "bargain", so I believe it was forced on her.

To be honest, your explanation is the best I have heard for Tess's actions after their change of her character in S2.

That said, I never trusted her. When she started being nice, I hoped it would last, but I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop. S1 Tess was way too shifty for me to completely get over.

I also became a great fan of Ava in her small amount of screen time -- to me, Ava was the bright spot in the otherwise annoying dupes arc. I found EdR as Ava far more interesting than I ever found her as Tess. She (EdR) did quiet much better than she ever did brassy -- I remember the scene where she was in Kyle's room, and he told her she was hot when she was pissed, and I thought, "that was pissed?! whoo! paging Ute Hagen!" But I enjoyed her performance as Ava -- it gave me respect for her acting. Overall, i will miss EdR greatly.

But on to Liz -- I mentioned the idea of Liz as priestess or prophetess -- I didn't see anything on it in my search of Zero's intro. I'd be really excited to see what people think of that

To be honest, your explanation is the best I have heard for Tess's actions after their change of her character in S2.

That said, I never trusted her. When she started being nice, I hoped it would last, but I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop. S1 Tess was way too shifty for me to completely get over.

I also became a great fan of Ava in her small amount of screen time -- to me, Ava was the bright spot in the otherwise annoying dupes arc. I found EdR as Ava far more interesting than I ever found her as Tess. She (EdR) did quiet much better than she ever did brassy -- I remember the scene where she was in Kyle's room, and he told her she was hot when she was pissed, and I thought, "that was pissed?! whoo! paging Ute Hagen!" But I enjoyed her performance as Ava -- it gave me respect for her acting. Overall, i will miss EdR greatly.

But on to Liz -- I mentioned the idea of Liz as priestess or prophetess -- I didn't see anything on it in my search of Zero's intro. I'd be really excited to see what people think of that

Tri Tri, I am not sure that we've discussed this before, but if we did I am sorry. I have to honestly say that I don't understand why people are so surprised about what Tess did to Alex and the Podsters. I was surprised that the Podsters trusted her so easily. I mean, if I were Izzy and some chick told me that she had strong feelings for my brother whom she had just met, I would have been much more cautious. It seems as if once they realized that Tess was also an they dropped their guard. That pisses me off!

I ONLY liked EdR (a little) as Ava and Tess when flirting with Kyle.

ITA that making the Tex fake would compicate things, but let's be real here. I have four words for you: End of The World. It can't get any more complicated than that. The Tex being fake is vital to the survival of M/L's relationship. I will ALWAYS be a Dreamer, but if the Tex was real their relationship is cheapened.

Tri Tri, we've talked about why I think she faked the Tex. I think that Tess faked it because she was afraid of really getting pregnant. Yeah, she could have brought some protection, but who is to say that it would have worked against seed? If 's climax for an hour, that's a lot of seed. She had no way of knowing that she could have gotten back to Antar (she didn't know that L/Ma/Mi would find the code to the Destiny book. I mean she's , not stupid.

L8R
*~*~*~*~*~

Tess: I thougth I'd find you here. (slowly moving in to kiss Max.)
Max: I want to wake up now.
Max: (with his eyes tightly closed) There's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place like home.....
Max: (bolting up in bed) No!!!!! (reaching for Liz)
Liz: Max! Max! What's wrong?
Max: (touching Liz's face) I had the worse nightmare! Tess and I were at the observatory....
Liz: Shhh, It's okay. It was just a mindwarp.

Dreamer 'til I die!

Anyways...To throw in my two cents.

Regarding Tess, I have to agree with Roswell_Queen I think that she grew up believing in this ideal of being Max's queen and an important member of the 4square and when then didn't happen she got really pi**ed. I think her anger at Max in Depature was geninue, I think she has grown to hate him becuase he didn't love her. I also think that hate she developed for all of them was what cuased her to make the deal with Kiver/Nicholas. And I think the deal was to come back with the heir. Why else would Kivar need her. (So obviosly I think the sex and the baby are real). I do like the theory that the poisonious enviroment to the baby is not the earth but Tess (or maybe their was never any danger to the baby that was just an excuse to go home).

Anyways...To throw in my two cents.

Regarding Tess, I have to agree with Roswell_Queen I think that she grew up believing in this ideal of being Max's queen and an important member of the 4square and when then didn't happen she got really pi**ed. I think her anger at Max in Depature was geninue, I think she has grown to hate him becuase he didn't love her. I also think that hate she developed for all of them was what cuased her to make the deal with Kiver/Nicholas. And I think the deal was to come back with the heir. Why else would Kivar need her. (So obviosly I think the sex and the baby are real). I do like the theory that the poisonious enviroment to the baby is not the earth but Tess (or maybe their was never any danger to the baby that was just an excuse to go home).

Welcome! Although I don't think the Tex is real, I think that SpOT would have developed like a normal human. I believe that the only reason Tess said that SpOT would be born in a month is because she was afraid that Liz would discover that she killed Alex.

L8R

*~*~*~*~*~
Tess: I thougth I'd find you here. (slowly moving in to kiss Max.)
Max: I want to wake up now.
Max: (with his eyes tightly closed) There's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place like home.....
Max: (bolting up in bed) No!!!!! (reaching for Liz)
Liz: Max! Max! What's wrong?
Max: (touching Liz's face) I had the worse nightmare! Tess and I were at the observatory....
Liz: Shhh. It's okay. It was just a mindwarp.

Dreamer 'til I die!

I'm too tired to post much - but -

Trelaini - there is no discussion of Liz as prophetess, only as the subject of ancient prophets! There is also info on Liz as the Fifth element, and similar stuff in the Intro. So - stuff related to what you are interested, just different terms used.

Tess - ummmmmmmm..... - well, I too believe that she was brought up by Nasedo to believe that she was part of a group, etc. BUT then again - IF Nasedo did truly make a deal - she would have been raised that her whole purpose was to ingraciate herself into the Pod Squad and then lead them to their ultimate death. If this is how she was raised, than she is a tragic character - through I have little sympathy for her, because when she had the chance to change (living in the Valentis and being accepted), she didn't. I do think that there was a bigger conspiracy - and possibly, when Whitaker was pretending to be drunk and goes "TESS!" - Maybe Whitaker was determining that Tess was the one that could be used to trick the podsters. Unfortunately, I get hung up on all the CHADs - you can come up with an idea that explains one storyline, only to have holes poked in it due to other storylines. SO - I'm waiting until Season 3, and seeing how it goes, before I settle on one theory about Tess or any of the "enemies" introduced over the last season.

See you all later!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

But on to Liz -- I mentioned the idea of Liz as priestess or prophetess -- I didn't see anything on it in my search of Zero's intro. I'd be really excited to see what people think of that.

Thank you. Have you seen my fanfic, Departure, Part 2? I tried to explain things better there. Of course, it's a defensable episode, backstory and all. Even a suprise, which no one (even the RBIs!) has noticed yet...

As for Liz as a Priestess or some such: I think it mars the original, charming story of this space alien, who loves and is loved by "the smallest of small-town girls". That's a sweet, romantic setting.
I like it.

It's been some months, sadly, since I've read the whole intro-- I have to dive back into it again.
quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
Thank you. Have you seen my fanfic, Departure, Part 2? I tried to explain things better there. Of course, it's a defensable episode, backstory and all. Even a suprise, which no one (even the RBIs!) has noticed yet...

As for Liz as a Priestess or some such: I think it mars the original, charming story of this space alien, who loves and is loved by "the smallest of small-town girls". That's a sweet, romantic setting.
I like it.

Reggie,
i may have to relax my "no fanfic" rule for that one (it's not that I'm against fanfic or anything; I just know then I would have no life other than Roswell).

But one of the things I like about the Liz as prophet role, is that premise -- prophets are often the "smallest of small town" people (Mohammed was a camel driver and then a caravan leader, for example-- and a very good businessman, if I remember correctly). I just want there to be a way for Liz to be a small town girl and human, but still be important to the alien myth in the grand scheme of things. i don't want her to be part alien, or the true Queen of Twilo-- It would break my heart; I would find it a copout. But priestesses and prophetesses were chosen by the gods (like the oracle at delphi, I think). They could come from families, or they could just be chosen as favored or whatever. That's what I like about it-- Liz can still be the small town girl I adore.

Personally, I wish they'd never thought of all this destiny crap-- that it could have been more like the books-- small town kids and small town aliens living on the periphery of a huge issue, who find the courage to combat and overcome it -- heroes not because of destiny, but because of the strengths within themselves.

Instead we get alien Tolkien. And if i want medieval and kings and queens, I'll read Sir Orfeo, or Beowulf; or Malory, or Chaucer. I mean there's a reason I kept up my Middle English skills.

*sigh* If Lesse Ortecho were reading right now, she'd tell me not to be so negative. And she's right -- I still love Roswell. Even if it's no longer about a boy who loved a girl so much that he risked everything in his world, everything else he cared about, to save her.

quote:Originally posted by Trelaina:
...after a while they just knock me back down to 17 posts. If anyone has any idea why this is happening, please feel free to PM me...Trelaina, just wait till you have as many posts as I do--it's embarrassing

And we compared Max to King Arthur, who's kingdom was destroyed by his own son, conceived with his sister.

Too bad they don't send SpoT back in time and make him Khivar.

j/k

Though then it would almost make sense why Khivar even cared that Max and Tess have a son...

Besides then while Max was off searching for another granolith/Holy Grail, Liz would have to fall in love with Max's best friend. And where would that leave Maria?

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:
Trelaina, just wait till you have as many posts as I do--it's embarrassing

Ah, I just had my knickers in a twist b/c I was so close to 50 and my next star... I'm such a lurker I thought it would never happen

Just a thought!!!

~ERIN~

And we compared Max to King Arthur, who's kingdom was destroyed by his own son, conceived with his sister...

Besides then while Max was off searching for another granolith/Holy Grail, Liz would have to fall in love with Max's best friend. And where would that leave Maria?Or maybe Sean will turn out to have some connection to the once and future King? Like maybe best friend to His Royal Majesty's Emmissary?

Okay, I'm stretching it to fit the Arthur plot, but nermal, I just saved your post in my "Season 2 Theories" file.

I feel nothing about the Tess situation, it was the same old thing. What's new?

Now the Liz situation, with alien Max, wow, that's what I want to see revealed, this is mythology at it's best. Since the Pilot, there are so many questions, pertaining to Liz.

I sincerely feel that she was meant to be the protector, can't explain why, she is human. That's the best part, being totally human, but have the connection with the aliens and their home world.

Sci-fi, I'm hoping this time around, for Roswell to deal with the human aspect, and just not alien and alien (from what I have seen, they did not survive, not this battle, at least). The scientist of Antar had to know something, and this is what I truly want to see, the connection between earth and antar. And I don't mean baby (which I don't believe ever happened).

Season Three showing of course Liz Importance, b/c she is, no doubt about it, but to also see the reason why?

Style

Style

I don't think that the planners realized that the human body has forced the podsters to relate more to their adoptive home than they wanted. Isabel talks about this in Departure - "which half is more important".

I think the Liz will somehow show them that they belong on Earth now, that no matter what was intended in their creation, the podsters were essentially abandoned by their planners. The podsters have the right to not only doubt these extreterrisial forces in their lives but refuse to play along. The only things they have been shown about their origination is treachery and pain. They do not remember anything of a Golden Age. I think in order for all of them to embrace the Destiny plan, they must been given somesort of motivation to pursue on. I don't think Spot is nearly enough to do this, but we shall see.

But we never got an explanation as to why Khivar wanted Max and Tess's child either.

I wonder why Earth, too. Earth must give them something that will help them complete their mission. But whether or not Earth will benefit from that mission is another story. EOTW suggests not.

It's like the Max and Liz story. Max seems to need Liz and is off balance without her, but while Liz is drawn to Max, she is repeatedly hurt by their relationship.

Or does the metaphor draw back to the Pilot, where Max, by saving Liz, saves himself, and by saving Earth, saves Antar? Or maybe it's by sacrificing himself, saves Liz, and by sacrificing Antar saves Earth.

Deep thoughts.

OT but can anyone help me make a new avatar. I have the pics, just don't know how to animate. shapeshifter?

Thanks

...a new avatar. ...shapeshifter?
Here I am! Towards the end of this month all my worldly goods (including computer) should be enroute to Chicago (brrrr!) from Sacramento, so email me now at plum@ulink.net .

Anybody here from Lake Forest, IL? How's reception? Do I need cable?

Have a ton to do at the office today , but I was thinking about Alex's death on the way to work today (nice and happy, eh? ).

Wouldn't there be a way to tell that Alex didn't die from the car crash? That it wasn't a suicide that way or even an accident that way? I'm not a doctor by any means, but can't doctor's tell HOW a person dies and therefore, they'd be able to tell Alex died from something OTHER than the car crash!?

NLA: ITA! They should have done an autopsy. If they did, one of the characters should have mentioned that an autopsy was done or we would have seen it. It would have cool to see it cuz then, maybe Tess would mindwarp the people doing the procedure and we would have known she had something to hide.

EVERYONE: I am still curious if the number 8 was any real significance other than the obivous fact that there is/was 8 hybrids. If you have any thoughts, PM me please! Thank you for your time to read this post.

rory_parker

(Max + Liz =
Liz was CHANGED by the and I will not deny it. Liz is important!)

OT but can anyone help me make a new avatar. I have the pics, just don't know how to animate. shapeshifter?

Thanks

I'm from Chicago, UPN will be on Channel 50...what part of Lake Forest are you moving too, closer to Chicago, or to Wisconsin???

Just curious.

He was cold to Max's touch because he had been dead for hours, plus Max probably isn't used to the feel of a corpse. (Shudder...)

Mel, incredible art. Shapeshifter, can you say Marshall Fields?!!! LizParker, if you're done with your old avatar, I'd be glad to buy it from you...for about seventy stars, or however many I have today! -HH

I agree that a blood test for drugs and alcohol was probably all that was conducted on Alex, not a full-fledged autopsy. They would probably only do a full autosy if there was some foul play suspected - and based on all the police reports and discussions, no one BUT our LIZ (and Kyle for that matter) suspected that Alex was killed. But it is an excellent question!

I'm sooooo swamped with proposal writing right now (and squeezing some billable work in between) that I won't be around much - but will continue to check in to see what you all are talking about!! Plus, I'm getting so excited about LA!! I hope to meet some of you all there!

Night all!!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Zero & everyone, I'm sorry I won't be at the gathering in LA, but I will try to keep the home fires burning. Then when y'all get back I'll be computerless and it will be your turn.

haniczka, O yes! "Marshall Fields!" Haven't been to one in 20 years!

Just a quick stop to bump up the thread and ask if any of you picked up on a clue that may connect Whitaker and Sean? I always wondered why Sean called Liz by her last name "Parker?" Well who else called her "Parker?," that's right, know one other then Congresswomen Whitaker.

Evid

COURTNEY: Because I was sleeping with her stepson, that's why!

MICHAEL: Stepson.

COURTNEY: That's right. He screwed his life up with drugs, and I screwed my life up with him. When we got busted, do you know who went down for that? I spent 2 years in Buckman, and the only reason why I got out of there is because I promised that bitch that I would never see him again. So I guess that she's just making sure I keep that promise. Maybe Courtney and Sean made a connection in jail? You've probably read my fav theory about Sean getting out of jail for "good behaviour" so he could spy on the podsters and friends. Methinks that Whittaker, Sean, and maybe Courtney all thought that Liz was important. Contrast Courtney's line from Surprise: "Trust me, nobody's after Tess" with what happened to Liz in M2M. Maybe Tess did stage that whole deal in Surprise hoping Max would rescue her?

I won't get into CHADS - but this morning while out exercising I started thinking about all the characters introduced with these great story potentials that were just dropped, and Courtney and the Mikey G Worshipers was one of the biggies that I thought of! I could make a long list of them - I would love if some of them were tied into this next Season!!

Of to work on Proposals!! What a drag!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

It's so rare these days that I get a chance to drop by...but I couldn't let the 50th thread go by without saying something!!!

This has always been my favorite thread on FanForum, and I spent a good chunk of time flexing the brain muscle with you all.

I am also amazed at your tenacity, and your ability to keep mything all through the summer without any new material to draw from! Amazing, really!!!

You all are amazing, and I look forward to joining the fray again once the new season starts.

The intro looks fabulous - good job!

Smiles,
{~}:}
Meta

I like ur theory about why earth was chosen
but do u mean that the genetic munipulation the posdters was to allow them to survive the atmosphere or to be human in form to escape suspion.......

because i think the posdters species can survive in the earths atmosphere...otherwise the two nesados in SO47 would have died traight away

Speaking of Courtney I'm sure you all remember this famous line, COURTNEY: Trust me, nobody's after Tess. All that blond hair and eye shadow? She's like Dolly Parton without the jugs, This had to be one of the best lines of the whole season. Anyway it left me thinking that this is the way sisters talk to each other. Did any of you get that sis vibe from them?
Oh and her is just one more reason I think Brodey was mindwarped by Tess in OTM.
WHITAKER: Thought she was you.But neither of you looks like you did in the other life. I knew I needed one of the female hybrids. It was a 50/50 chance.

Need I say more.

Evid

Hope to meet you all at the event in Los Angeles, you guys are insightful plus truly amazing!

Back to the topic, still think that Liz if not the actual protector in question, does have a link to the protector's history.

But in any science fiction storyline, anything can happen.

Style

Another theory I like is the one that she is prophet I love that one it could explain why she can see the evil within like a she could with Nesado and Tess and she gets visions. That could explain alot of things.

Anyways, will love meeting with you all. I'm so excited! Sorry - LOL

Style

So that would mean that the MW killed his mind and not his body (or his heart)? Hmm.. what did Kyle say about Alex and bringing his body to the car? Wasn't he dead at that point?

ITA about how the small amount of testing that they probably would have done would be for alcohol and drugs, but isn't it also part of a "standard test" to determine the time of death? And exact cause? Of course.. I manage a software company, so this is WAY out of my league, but ya'd think, right?

Anyways, will love meeting with you all. I'm so excited! Sorry - LOL

Style

Hey Style!

Just wanted to point out that I will be there in LA! And .. I can't WAIT!!!

Off to work - but welcome to all Newbies and Met it is great to see you swing by!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Sorry, I felt like my original post was abrupt and a bit harsh as a result (completely not my intention).

NLA, I agree with all of your points, and they are the exact reasons why I feel the baby is a lie, as I've stated before. It was just too convenient, as you said -- the four-week pregnancy, the baby's inability to breathe, etc. All of these are excellent reasons as to why the pregnancy is dubious at best.

However, although she has all the reasons in the world for faking the BABY, she has none for faking the SEX. I really feel that these are two separate issues. As an inveterate dreamer, I would like the sex to be fake as well-- I've just been rewatching season 1 and just thinking about the Tex breaks my heart all over again. sigh. But I just can't see the justification.

Just have to say that Tess does have a reason to fake the sex. If her plan all along was to fake a baby then the sex would be necessary. If she could get Max to oblige willingly then no need to fake it. But what if Max never allowed her to get that close to him for real. Then her only hope would be to mindwarp him into having feelings and then really having sex, or mindwarp him into believing it happened when it really didn't. Personally, if I were Tess I wouldn't have faked the sex if I could make him want to have it (I'm not stupid), but we don't know what Tess really wanted. We believe that she loves Max, or does she just think she does because her whole life has been based on that premise? If any of the theories are true, that she was Kivar's lover and the traitor in the group, or that she really did make the deal with Kivar in the first place, then all she needed was for Max to believe in the sex and baby, not necessarily have it be real (especially if she never really had feelings for him, as I have believed all along that this was an arranged marriage from the start).

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Thanks for listening. I mean reading...

My first response to this was, "Duhh.. she has to have the sex to have the baby".. BUT... none of the Pod Squad has any idea how they conceive up there on Antar! T COULD have simply said, "Well, this is how you conceive up there and now I'm pregnant" and who are they to question, right?

Then again.. might be a bit more suspicious to the viewers - I know it would be to me!

I maybe way off but these are just theories. (I may believe that they are real, right?)

NLA-love the Leanna abduction theory -- perhaps that could add to why Tess had the power to mindwarp Alex for so long? That part of the time it was possession, not mindwarp?

Denise-Hey! Glad you like the prophet theory (made me blush).

StephStephSteph -- I agree -- but wasn't it Trash herself that said they had to get pregnant the normal way? When Izzy thought she'd gotten pregnant from the dreams.

KLA -- My friend Lesse Ortecho believes strongly that the Tex was fake. Her reasoning was that Trash was actually deathly afraid of REALLY getting pregnant, and therefore had to fake the sex to alleviate the risk. I hope this is how they'll work it, although it doesn't quite work for me as a complete justification (and also makes me very, very nervous for Maria). But since I am also a faithful reader of the CHADs, I know that anything's possible

At any rate, it would seem more likely that they ACTUALLY had sex, with psychological manipulation and mindwarps as a part of it -- Trash had already isolated Max from everyone else, setting herself up as the one person he could turn to, and keeping him estranged from the others. Then she adds a few mindwarps (rescued memories, hourlong orgasm :shudder: stuff like that) -- and voila! Actual sex via manipulation. Just like it happens in the real world. Well, almost

Edited cause I seem to be 0 for 2 today.

First off.. Trash?

Secondly, yep, it was T that said that, but couldn't it have a slip up? Maybe she told them they DO have to have real sex to conceive and then when she realized that wasn't going to happen she had to MW Max into the Tex, so he'd believe she was pregnant? Just a thought.. I have lots of those

Ok quick question, sorry to ask it here I know this isn't the correct board but this is the only board I post on regularly.
Question: how do you guys make the pictures of Roswell where you mix pictures together and personalize them? Is it a special program or something??

also: I don't believe that Liz is the fourth podster i.e the queen because if so then why wasn't there another Liz with the Dupes why was there another T
I do however believe that Liz is VERY important!

As far as the sex is concerned as much as I want to believe that it is fake I simply think it was a power trip for Tess if nothing else. I hate to say that because it was WRONG!!! but.....

sorry guys this is all kinda jumbled its been a long day!! also sorry I've been not posting for a few days, been really busy!!
Later guys!!
Brenda

I don't believe that Liz is the fourth podster i.e the queen because if so then why wasn't there another Liz with the Dupes why was there another T
I do however believe that Liz is VERY important!

As far as the sex is concerned as much as I want to believe that it is fake I simply think it was a power trip for Tess if nothing else. I hate to say that because it was WRONG!!! but.....

There are picture processors, just like word processors. There's more of them for the Mac, of course, but they're not uncommon. It's the talent to use them that's uncommon.

The lack of a Dupe-Liz is a very good point. She can't be a podster, when we've seen all four pair. And BTW, we have seen all four pair, so there's none missing from the so-called "leaky pod". Neither Sheila Hubble, nor her dead fetus found during her autopsy, were podsters.

As for the Max&Tess sex: well, she was brought up to believe that she was (still) his wife; she's maintained that all along. She may have hoped to convince him, finally, into his Destined role as her husband.

The betrayal? Post-hypnotic suggestion, by Nikolas. She didn't want to, and was hoping that if Max were more like her (original, alien) husband Zan, he could rescue her from The Plan. Hence all the deferrence she showed him, etc. I really think the original Ava worshipped Zan as a Hero, just as Courtney worshipped Michael.

Poor kid. Max? Hero? not lately...

Elizabeth (Liz): God's oath
Max: The Greatest
Tess: Greek ; To reap
Isabel: Spanish; Consecrated to God
Michael: Hebrew; He who is like God
Alex:Greek; helper and defender
Maria:No orgin The perfect one
Ava:German; a bird
Kyle:Celtic; handsome
Jeffrey (jeff Liz's dad):German; God's peace
Parker (Liz and her dad's last name!!):PROTECTOR

SOrry if this has already been on the board but I thought it was neat how the entire pod squad had to do with Greatness or God EXCEPT T and Liz is God's oath
Also her dad's name meaning was really cool to me!! as well as her last name and Alex's (helper defender!!)

Well anyways I just thought that was neat Please let me know your opinions on this!!!

Hi to you, Zero Congrats on #50. Hard to believe I started on this thread when it was #20 (I think, it was so long ago!!)

I wish I could come around more often but there is so much to read and since I’ve gotten my promotion I can’t read as much! But I decided to catch up and post a few things:

Great manip, Melodious

Great thoughts about being exposed to the pentagon can damage your powers! Michael and Isabel weren’t exposed as much as Max and Tess and only Tess tried to use her powers when it was activated.

One question I have about Tess’s mindwarp is does it help the male species (human that is) resist women? Think about how Alex was stronger against Isabel’s charms and Kyle “lost” interest in Tess. Of course, it could be that she thought that Alex was too wimpy, so might as well boost up that part of his personality while she was at it. And of course, Kyle having feelings for her was ruining her plans.

roswell_queen—good question about Tess just mindwarping Max and/or Liz at the end of S1 or beginning of S2. I know there is a cut scene from Destiny where she says that Max has to come to her on his own (at least initially). Besides, I think that Max and Liz share a bond so strong, you can’t break it. Look at how upset Tess is when she sees a flash of Max kissing Liz. I think she thought she finally had him, but she never really did.
destiny book—I agree that it is explaining how they found the DNA donors for the hybrids. That only makes sense. It just happens that it explain abductions as well (how would they get a human to move toward their science vessel?)

Nicholas is a skin! Otherwise why would he have a new skin created for himself?

Originally posted by Trelaina:
But I can't see what Tess would possibly have to gain by faking the sex. In fact, faking the sex seems to make things more complicated.

I tend to disagree with this. Here’s my theory: Kyle “trimmed” Tess’s lamp and got her preggers because we all know that it is highly improbable that hybrids can reproduce. Tess realizes she is preggers and that she can use this to her advantage knowing full well that Max is an honorable guy and that he will “do the right thing.” So she orchestrates the Tex and the whole “the baby can’t survive in this atmosphere” bit so that they would leave. No, it doesn’t just take a month to gestate. She is pregnant BEFORE HOM and realizes she needs to really step up the “memory retrieval techniques”, etc and she begins mindwarping Kyle into having sisterly feelings for her, while erasing the fact that they trimmed lamps together. By the time the Tex happens she has a large enough fetus for Max to believe that gestation is only a month. In one sense I think “No way is Tess smart enough for that” but there have been girls who have pulled the wool over many guys by sleeping with them in a short enough time period to lead them to believe the baby is theirs. If the writers did use this than that would remove the doubt Liz might have as to Max’s love, while giving Kyle a great storyline.

nermal—I think Max and Liz can find out that hybrids can’t have kids by a new alien (who knows true translation of book or the plan), by Ava, or maybe Liz realizes that hybrids can’t reproduce.

Style—I agree that the writers need to go into the connection between earth and antar! Now that would be interesting.

Uruzberkana—great point about HC showing how Michael is a lot like human donor showing he is not like Rath anymore. Of course, dupe Rath is evil whereas Rath on Antar never betrayed Zan. Hmmm.

shapeshifter—hi! Interesting theory about Courtney and Sean in jail! First thought when reading this was maybe Sean was stepson? But that doesn’t really make sense unless he is not really Sean DeLuca but an alien.

Well, that’s all I have to say about that!

Hope to keep coming here because after catching up I realized I miss it too much!

On the left is a cluster of four tanks, perhaps symbolic of the pods. One of them looks "open" (as if an end cover has been removed), analogous to the leaky pod. On the right, only partly visible, is another cluster, perhaps foreshadowing the Dupes.

quote:Originally posted by NLA:
Didn't Lonnie say in MITC that they made two sets because they made a mistake with the first set. What if the mistake was they mixed the alien DNA with the wrong humans for Vilandra and Ava. So for the NY4, it is as we've been told. But notice the similarities in personality for NY's Ava and Roswell's Isabel. It is for this reason, I wonder if for Roswell, Isabel is Ava and Tess is Vilandra. Tess's memories are all suspect anyway because she remembers everything they way she and the other hybrids look on Earth. And we know that isn't true. She could have been told she was Ava by Nasedo. The rest of the Royal 4 don't remember the past, only what others have told them or possibly what Tess has mindwarped them. NLA, with all the 'switched' Ava/Tess/Vilondra theories, one would certainly think JK would pick up one and run with it for at least a little bit. I like the idea that the Roswell 4 are the 'rejects' because they are 'too human' as Vilondra postulated, but they are also more ethical and moral. I used to think this meant that Ava & Tess had to be switched, but then Nasedo could have just taken advantage Tess's human weaknesses--think of the box of JB pix --and he 'mindwarped' her with suggestions.

Ava well i think she is not evil.....

Elizabeth (Liz): God's oath
Max: The Greatest
Tess: Greek ; To reap
Isabel: Spanish; Consecrated to God
Michael: Hebrew; He who is like God
Alex:Greek; helper and defender
Maria:No orgin The perfect one
Ava:German; a bird
Kyle:Celtic; handsome
Jeffrey (jeff Liz's dad):German; God's peace
Parker (Liz and her dad's last name!!):PROTECTOR

SOrry if this has already been on the board but I thought it was neat how the entire pod squad had to do with Greatness or God EXCEPT T and Liz is God's oath
Also her dad's name meaning was really cool to me!! as well as her last name and Alex's (helper defender!!)

Well anyways I just thought that was neat Please let me know your opinions on this!!!

Awesome info! I ACTUALLY just got goose bumps!

Please I don't even want to go there with Isabel having the essence of Ava and Tess having the essence of Lonnie because it is too creepy!!!! If Isabel turned out to be real bride the YUK factor would be a HUGE turnoff to me.

I just think that presently Isabel hasn't turned yet, but she could still start becoming more and more like Lonnie next season, but who knows?

Uhh... what?

quote:Please I don't even want to go there with Isabel having the essence of Ava and Tess having the essence of Lonnie because it is too creepy!!!! If Isabel turned out to be real bride the YUK factor would be a HUGE turnoff to me.

No no no - don't go there!

ITA, Max is balanced between Liz and Isabel. Liz is their first ambassador to their human world, and without Alex, Isabel might slip to becoming Vilandra/Lonnie if she loses those ties that keep her humanity
intact.

And Tess being in league with Khivar makes it hard to question why Alex was the chosen mindwarp candidate. He gave Is that human tie and maybe him not being as close to Is as Max and Liz were and Michael and Maria were made him more succeptible. Notice it was when he got closer to Isabel that the mindwarp deteriorated.

It will be interesting to see how/if Khivar plays his hand this season and if Liz keeps fufilling her role as their protector/truth seer.

Roswell Queen - love the name information!

Alexis - great to see you again!!

Shapeshifter - thanks for the connection to the promos. I never watch UPN, so this is so welcome!!

Everyone have fun mything!!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Now back to sci-fi, I still believe that Liz is the protecter. I just have that feeling!

Style

Shapeshifter - ITA that Liz as the prophecized protector would tie a LOT of loose ends together for me. But I guess we have to wait to see what direction Season 3 goes?? I just so excited to see Shiri/Liz up-front and center in a lot of the promos!!

Night all!!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Hope you guys have a ball at the party--but PLEASE don't ask the writers/producers about any of our ideas, cuz I swear they run as far and as fast away from them on purpose!!!!! But not necessarily in a direction I like LOL!!!!

heres another theory
what if tess' alien side is a skin.....sent to earth to pretend she is is max's bride in her past life, but really to have a baby with max, a half skin and antarian hbrid that would succeed kivar to the throne.

If that was to happen then tess might be kivars daughter

With Ava, her alien side is the true bride of max clone.

to sum this up what if the skins only knew that there was only one set of pods being created and planed to change one of the podsters clone to a skins (tess)

however the creation of the 4 set was defection so the antarians created a new set. but this was to late for the skins to change Ava's alien side to a skin...therefore remaining as Zans true bride.

on earth one of the nesado's went to plan B and switched Ava to be with the dupes and Tess the skin to be with the real royal 4

Since the dupe seem to be opposite of their counterpart then dupe Liz would be one wise and evil person, a force to be reckoned with.

There were a total of eight people "created". These were two sets of The Royal Four: Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess; Zan, Rath, Lonnie, and Ava. There were no others. Since Liz is not an alien, she would not have been copied anyway.

Liz is Unique!

She felt it was right to help Max right from the start. She said being with Max felt right. She was afraid of Nasedo and Tess, who were betraying them all along.

And she saw the truth about Alex's death, before any of them really suspected anything at all.

If that isn't seeing the evil within, I don't know what is.

*Artist composite rendering of three eyewitness drawings of "craft of unknown origin" associated with
Roswell, New Mexico © 1999 by Tim Bauer.*

quote:Originally posted by QueenAmidala01:
...here's another theory
what if tess' alien side is a skin.....sent to earth to pretend she is is max's bride in her past life, but really to have a baby with max, a half skin and antarian hbrid that would succeed kivar to the throne. ...Taking off on that idea (you all should know better by now that to get me started on new theories ) maybe the Evil Aliens infiltrated the original plan and perverted the whole thing, including the production of the Dupes and altering the Mommogram. I think now more than ever that the Mommogram could have been in part or in whole a Tess mindwarp.

But then we have to think about Nasedo's words about Liz that she shouldn't have been there to hear the Mommogram. Why not?

I'm still not buying that nonsense that Tess was evil. Neither motive, nor means, nor opportunity; nope, it doesn't follow.

As for "Ed Harding", who knows what kind of person it takes to make an effective Protector? Maybe (probably!) a little coldness and hardness were necessary.

And Liz "not belonging" - duh! He's been hiding from the natives for decades, and now there's one in the Sanctum Sanctorum, about to learn about the most secret parts of the Mission! He couldn't be happy about that! But then, he didn't understand who Liz was. (First season, anyway. )

[/B]
I am sorry, but I have dropped the ball on this big time. I still plan on being at La Tazza at 10 am.

I am not ignoring you, but right now I am unable to access my email and the internet due to computer problems. I am at a friends house tonight. All of this started Tuesday and it still persists.... At this point I will probably have to format my hard drive and reinstall everything. Sigh....

Reggie, Zero, contact shapeshifter and she can give you a method to contact me over the phone lines.

I don't know if I am going to have time to get my computer fixed before I leave for LA on Thursday evening....

But I thought I would post that I'm still alive and well.

The transcript of ITLITB is up at http://www.crashdown.com/episodes/trans_218.shtml . Along with TEOTW, I thing ITLITB really cements Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology:
quote:LIZ: I'm just looking for the truth. I don't think that Max is interested in that right now.
...
LIZ: Let go of me.
[Max] looks down, realizes he's gripping her arm, lets go and walks away.

Because he feared she might see through the lie. They just did a very good job presenting their "destiny" case.

Tess just wasn't able to handle the coverup/body count on her own. That human part of her got in the way.

So.. I don't really have any insights into anything as I've been spending most of my recent days planning for LA, so.. keep on keepin' on!

And.. Zero, QFanny, Reggie - looks like I'll be seeing you 3 (at the very least) in LA!

I just wanted to say to everyone who is going to the party: Have fun! Hope you see lots of stars while you are there. Tip: I’ve heard a lot of them (not just Roswell ones) hang out at a place called the Newsroom.

Well, I must be going!

Sorry no theories/discussion to add right now.

Can anyone remember what it said on Mr. Crawford’s cap?

I've been putting in LONG days for work recently, so been out of touch, and I leave for LA tomorrow!!

SO - Shapeshifter - I will the thread in your capable hands to start a new one IF it gets to 250 before I get home! I'm so excited!!

Alexis - yes, I'm kinda spoiled, but not totally - but will go to not spoiler status (maybe ) after the party!

I wish I could print out the recent Intro - but I guess I could just doneload it to a disk and give it to Shiri if I see her??? Ummm....

Okay - got to go. Will try to come by if I can get internet access - but if I don't - everyone have a GREAT week, and keep mything!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

That was weird. We don't actually see her disappear, but we see everyone else.
Maybe they thought it would be more effective to just show the effects of her disappearance on Kyle and Maria? I have no clue what else it could be.

The other weird thing was when Nicholas mindprobed Max, we saw what looked like what Liz would see if she were looking out the window while they were driving out to the alien sign.

Like Max could reach Liz or was sharing something with her even when she was out of phase with everyone else.

I swear sometimes I think Max and Liz share the same soul.

1) What if the 4 humans are counterparts to the aliens? Liz is the leader, Kyle would be her spouse, Alex would be second in command and Maria would be the leader's sister. if you think about it, this really fits. Liz is always in control. She always knows what's going on and how to save the day. If she needed help in the past, she would have turned to Alex. In fact, I bet if she were not investigating his death, but someone else's, he would be the first person she would ask for help.

2) Liz is the leader. She has said twice in the last 6 episodes "Let go of me" or "You can't tell me what to do" and Max and Michael both backed off. I'm not saying that Liz is an alien or anything. But it's definately clear that SHE is the leader.

3) Tess mindwarped Max. I didn't subscribe to this theory at first, but it makes sense upon rewatching. In ITLAITB, Liz told Max to let go of her, and he looked like he was coming out of a trance. In Departure, when max and Liz were in the jeep, he randomly leans over and kisses her, like he has just woken up from something. And in the desert, after the granolith took Tess home, when he apologized to Liz, it was like he finally broke out of the mindwarp.
is Stepford Max Tess's way of "teaching" him how to be Zan? And how exactly did Tess plan on teaching Max to care for her? You can't teach a person to love someone if their heart isn't in it.

4) Jennifer Coleman-who is she? Is she an alien emmisary like Brody/Larek? Or is she an evil alien mindwarping Liz to see blood? Was Tess mindwarping her too? That's an awful lot of stuff to mindwarp and how would Tess get J Coleman's e-mail?

5) Tess or someone mindwarped Liz. It seems like there might be two forces at work here. One which wants Max and Liz to be together (the scene in the jeep) and one that wants them apart. When Liz went to the DeLuca's to make out with Sean, it wasn't like her. It looked like she was being controlled by someone or something.

6)Sean's earing-what was the point of the earing discussion? It seemed really weird and random and I've been racking my brain to think of what it might have meant, if anything.

I think that's it for my observations-oh and I watched all the episodes and never noticed Max tapping, but maybe his brain is stronger and hasn't broken out of the mindwarp yet?

that's it for now, Bye
Pooh

1) An Alien connection, possibly an emmisary (Brody wears 'em), or maybe he's in cahoots with the Dupes

or:

2) Brian K., the actor, (or maybe even someone else) got the earing(s) which caused a lot of chat among the actors and the writers decided it was typical teen chat and would lend some reality to the scene.

And TVPooh, ITA on Liz being a leader among the humans, but I don't think the roles' parallels are supposed to have any mystical or scifi meanings--just a pattern of group dynamics that is being used to tell the story--but I could be wrong.

Style

Max was mindwarped/brainwashed by Tess (and doesn’t know it). Tess had taken advantage of this situation by weazeling her way in and now Max is confused. Even through his confusion, his utter love for Liz shines through and he goes to her. He tries to ask her about why she staged her sleeping with Kyle and lied and she dodges him trying not to tell him why (because she is selfless) and that he promised her he wouldn’t ask her again. He knows the truth and sees that she must have done it for a very good reason because he knows that she loves him. So he kisses her.

They are both overwhelmed with flashes. Max sees his Future self and what he asked Liz to do. He feels how much it hurt Liz to do what she did. Liz gets flashes as well, but it is of Max’s “memories.” She sees that they are different and realizes they are all “marked” by Tess, thus showing that Tess was producing these false memories. This shows another power Liz has too! (can’t help the RBIer in me! )

Liz discovers that Tess has been mindwarping Max since MITC which leads Liz to believe the baby might not be Max’s at all! Then of course she would research hybrid mating and come to the conclusion that it is high improbable that Tess could get pregnant by Max.

What is interesting is that this could start a whole story arc! The arc would be Liz and Max finding out that indeed the baby was not his, but Max did feel a baby and it must have been ½ human (you can’t mind warp the healing/connection). So both Liz and Max question why the scientist who engineered them in the first place would want them to mate with humans as opposed to other hybrids. This might also lead to the discovery of the reason why they chose Earth (besides the obvious one that Earth’s environment is hostile to skins). I would love to hear those explanations.

And of course the question would be whose baby was it then? I say Kyle. Wouldn’t that be interesting! It would explain why all of a sudden Kyle had sisterly feelings towards Tess. They trim each other’s lamps, she is preggers and decides to use this as a way to get Max home. Tess mindwarps Kyle into forgetting about their “lamp trimming sessions” and stages a mindwarp tex session with Max. Why else would she bring that sleeping bag? Max is an “incredibly, incredibly honorable guy” and of course Tess knows this and uses it to her advantage. Then, after she convinces Max the baby is his, she realizes Max isn’t focusing on a way home so she fakes pains,etc. so that he will want to go back.

What do you all think?

They are both overwhelmed with flashes. Max sees his Future self and what he asked Liz to do. He feels how much it hurt Liz to do what she did...
I still have hope for this scenario being played out.

Would it be too soap opera-ish if they finally reach the conclusion that it's Kyle's baby, they rescue it, Amy and Jim marry and 'adopt' it, only to finally discover it's Alex's?

Deep thoughts.[QUOTE/]

Nermal, I think you've found the essence of what I love the most about Roswell and put it in a nutshell: reciprocal love and self sacrifice creating hope for salvation...of Earth, Antar, and maybe even a new Eden somewhere...

Hope all of who are heading west travel safely and soak up good stuff to share with us upon your return. -HH

They are both overwhelmed with flashes. Max sees his Future self and what he asked Liz to do. He feels how much it hurt Liz to do what she did...
I still have hope for this scenario being played out.

Would it be too soap opera-ish if they finally reach the conclusion that it's Kyle's baby, they rescue it, Amy and Jim marry and 'adopt' it, only to finally discover it's Alex's?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it would be a bit Roswell 90210ish, but hey, if it was over a long enough period of time I might go for it. Tess is a vamp, so anything is possible.

Deep thoughts.

Nermal, I think you've found the essence of what I love the most about Roswell and put it in a nutshell: reciprocal love and self sacrifice creating hope for salvation...of Earth, Antar, and maybe even a new Eden somewhere...

Hope all of who are heading west travel safely and soak up good stuff to share with us upon your return. -HH

[/QUOTE]

ITA with you on this. Love and self-sacrafice is a monumental theme between Max and Liz’s characters. It shows true character and strength to act out of love and Max and Liz continually show this!

Okay, anybody out there to make the 250th post so I can start the new thread for Zero?

Ah-ha! I am not alone in the RBI Universe!

And not to mention that my computer's monitor & CD-ROM drives are acting erratically & the speed is just not up-to-speed and at a time when I need to buy one for my college-bound daughter as well!
But "I shall believe!" Here is the new link: http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/009707.html

Mods may feel free to close this thread anytime now.