The Introduction became so long, Shapeshifter graciously agreed to host it on a website. Below is the Table of Contents to the Intro with links! Hopefully, this will continue to make this Thread accessible to everyone interested in Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology. The Intro includes summaries of all our past discussions, so is well worth reading if you are NEW to our thread! The Intro has been up-dated to reflect observations, clues, discussions and theories through Departure and the end of Season 2. (All of which have added to our belief in Liz’s strength, the Hero’s Journey she is on and importance of Liz to the aliens –whether they know and appreciate it or not!) The newly revised Intro has a few tweaks to be made for “smiley faces” to be added, but all the “words” are there! So, HAVE FUN reading the Intro, and hopefully, it will refresh your memory about a specific topic or a specific date that causes you to think up some new theory! The links make that much easier! (THANK YOU Shapeshifter!) Major changes are “starred” for ease of reading if you don’t want to read the entire thing!

There is never a dull moment on this Thread! We appreciated the refocus during the end of Season 2 on Liz’s importance to the storyline! (Thank you JK and RM! ) Even though Heart of Mine, Cry Your Name, It’s Too Late & It’s Too Bad, Baby It’s You, Off The Menu and Departure (which I collectively refer to as the “Stepford Max” Chronicles in the new Intro) had many inducing scenes, we were provided tons of stuff to chat about and dissect! !! Plus – we have seen so many newbies joining into the discussion this summer - which is wonderful!

Feedback is always welcome! Just PM me.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Background

Basic Thesis

Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY!

What is Subject for Discussion?

Liz's importance to the Pod Squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! (Especially lately!) We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember – NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome!

Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection

Consequence of the Connection - the Change?

Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really?

Granolith - How does it fit in?

Destiny - Liz and Max!

Follow Your Heart

Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything!

Chakras

Einstein's Light Cone

Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV

The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up!

The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things?

The Catalyst - Liz!

Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in?

Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run"

Hero Journey - Liz's Path

Grandma Claudia - the first connection?

Lifebonds vs. Soulmates

Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection?

Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars!

Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max!

Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz?

Yin/Yang – Liz/Max

Skins - What lies below the surface?

Shapeshifters - Are there more than one?

Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation

Mythology!

Dates

Dates seem to be of extreme interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research. If you find a date I’ve missed or see one that is wrong – PM me with the change and where you got your information! I’m always looking for new dates!

In Summary

Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff, crew or UPN reads this or the Intro), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!"

To have the opportunity for a Season 3 on UPN is WONDERFUL, and this show has the potential to be another “X-files” with intimate relationships IF done right!

A couple of general Thread "Rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed – I can’t emphasize this enough as we move towards the beginning of Season 3), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions/preview and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. If you know what a preview “really means” due to spoilers, please DON’T tell us – let us speculate – we will find out soon enough! And discussion of the new book “Loose Ends” is now okay that Season 2 is over – though you might hold some stuff back for those of us who still have to read it! Thanks!

As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz whose life ended too soon - said - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)! Liz found the TRUTH, and will avenge his death! (Tess – beware – you have no idea what you have released in the B*#@h!)

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

To lurkers and newbies: With our fearless leaders out partying in Covina, now is a good time to get your 2 cents in!

Last thread is at: http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/009424.html

See also: http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology/index.html

Just thinking about the end of Season 2 and the start of Season 3: If they do pick up where they left off (looking for Junior), then Liz's help will probably be crucial to the success of Max's mission.

BTW, does anyone know who "made" this pic?

Any of the Liz Mythers going to the FF party I wish you a fun and safe journey. And if you get the chance would you please remind TPTB that SciFi fans are STICKLERS with DETAILS--something they should surely know already!!!LOL!!!

Alexis, your theory was discussed at very much so at the end of the season, it seems quite plausible to me as well. But who knows if they will use this. I guess this scenario would make it better for Liz/Max fans but would it make it better for Kyle??? Not sure about that one LOL!!! But it certainly is a viable option.

Nermal I like your thoughts-very deep!!!

I was wondering, Is it ok, If Im a Rebel, I still like Liz...really, she's cool, pretty, smart, stronger then I could EVER be

I was wondering, Is it ok, If Im a Rebel, I still like Liz...really, she's cool, pretty, smart, stronger then I could EVER be

Hey Chicka Dee! Or do Rebels say "Yo" instead of "Hey"?

I've been thinking a lot this week about the possible reasons fans identified more with Liz or Tess. I know I personally totally identified with Liz right from the Pilot--she was me 30 years ago: Petite Science Geek girl with the long dark hair and the alien boyfriend, living a double life. That's part of the reason I chose "shapeshifter" for my screen name. So I am wondering if a lot of Rebels just couldn't identify with Liz but so did have the hots for Max/JB, and so they live vicariously through the character of Tess who they envision will win Max away from Liz. Does this make sense? And do you or any Rebel friends fit that description?

BTW, I have never hated Tess (though many here do, and that's okay, say it gang: it's only a tv show. I always wanted Liz & Tess to become friends, and for a while it looked like Kyle could make that happen. But alas, it was not destined to be.

Lesse
*~*~*~*~*~*

Tess: I thougth I'd find you here. (slowly moving in to kiss Max.)
Max: I'm ready to wake up now.
Max: (with his eyes tightly closed) There's no place like home. There's no place like home. There's no place like home.....
Max: (bolting up in bed) No!!!!! (reaching for Liz)
Liz: Max! Max! What's wrong?
Max: (touching Liz's face) I had the worse nightmare! Tess and I were at the observatory....
Liz: Shhh. (she begins gently kissing him) It's okay. It was just a mindwarp.

Dreamer 'til I die!

The Isabel one is terrific too. UPN is definitely getting behind Roswell!

I think Liz is like the main reason for the show. Her being shot and saved by Max affected the aliens in a big way, and if they hadn't been exposed to danger through that, Michael would have never gotten with Maria, they wouldn't know about their planet, the granolithe, the skins e.t.c ( oh and Tess, so i guess there is a negative part of it! )
And shes smart and covers as a disguise for the aliens since she truly is human.
And without Liz, there'd be no Max & Liz

"Total Dreamer"

Liz: "And if I believe you tonight?"
Max: "Then we'll live happily ever after."

I love these things!---->

Max begins to dream about Antar. This time it isn't blurry impressions like his "sessions" with Tess displayed (which were fake I hope). But, of course, Max resists them because he doesn't want to hurt Liz like before (because in his dreams there is a female alien that he knows he loves EXACTLY like he loves Liz but he thinks it's Tess...shudder). So this goes on for awhile, but he can't keep it in and he wants to control it. So he asks Isabel about how she dream walks. He tries to use the techniques she says to get information out of the dreams. This is when he discovers that the alien is really Liz, the True Bride. Then he has tries to understand what it means. Is it symbolic? Is it a memory? Hmmmmmmmm. These are the kinds of things I want to see!

Max begins to dream about Antar. This time it isn't blurry impressions like his "sessions" with Tess displayed (which were fake I hope). But, of course, Max resists them because he doesn't want to hurt Liz like before (because in his dreams there is a female alien that he knows he loves EXACTLY like he loves Liz but he thinks it's Tess...shudder). So this goes on for awhile, but he can't keep it in and he wants to control it. So he asks Isabel about how she dream walks.
The previous memories showed them as they look now. If this happens, the only way I'd believe it is if they showed them as they looked on Antar.

Max begins to dream about Antar. ...
...in his dreams there is a female alien that he knows he loves EXACTLY like he loves Liz...
...he discovers that the alien is really Liz, the True Bride. Then he has tries to understand what it means. Is it symbolic? Is it a memory? ...Alexis, WR's fanfic, The Importance of Elizabeth, has some similarities to your idea. If you haven't read it, you should, because I'm sure you will enjoy it. Also, if you haven't read it, then the fact that 2 or more RBIers have come up with the same theory could possibly indicate that this is the direction that the writers will take. I tend not to think they will, because thus far Liz's powers have been associated with her "change" from the healing (rather than being of alien origins). But WR's fiction works around that in an interesting way, and there are several other plausible explanations that don't leave too many plotholes.

Possibilities for this...
Crash was at 1947
Skins comes at 1950
Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?) at 1950

Jeff Parker born at 1955
Nancy Parker born at 1957
They married at 1979
Liz Parker born at 1983

Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)at 1989
****
If look at Earth timeline - all is possible.

but...(this is my personal opinion/theory)
On Antar R4 was totally screwing all. Mom saved their "essense"(what ever this is) and sending R4 away from Antar - "Learn enough to use your skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy" - in other words she give them second start.
They only must bevare that they don't repeat their mistakes - "What a shame it is to see history repeat itself. ".
In some point this repeating (mistakes or history) is starting.There is parallels/similarities between their past and former life - most them is in between Zan and Max love life (if we look what writers are telling us).

1.
MAX: I can't imagine how you must feel right now, I mean, I've thought about telling you a thousand times.
ZAN - when he saw Ava first time - he is so shay and can't talk with her.
2.
Max and Liz first kiss - party night.
Zan and Ava first kiss - party night.
3.
Both girls have scene where they standing on rocks (in Pilot at Crash-party and when Larek and Zan are swiming in red-jello)

I think Zan-Ava on Antar have somekind love interest but...if they are on Earth and must have fresh start/relive their lives in other way - this relationship not working anymore.
They both must find new - in some point similar but still different enough relationship - to fullfill destiny but not repeat history.
And if in show they playng with time too, then ....

So, do you think Alien Ava was smart like Liz? In Departure Tess says to Max, "...I might have been able to teach you but..."
We know that humans can be very cruel, but it seems Jason Katims wants us to see the Antarians as ruthless and humans as 'kinder and gentler.' The Dupes were less human and more cruel. This brings me back to the Switched Ava/Tess theory. Nasedo might have switched them in order to make the deal with Kvar--the more human Ava or Tess would not have sold out Max so easily. Ava was very remorseful about Zan. But Tess seemed sorry too sometimes.

Hi Shapeshifter!
First - thank you for warm words!

Shapeshifter, alien boyfriend? Really? Please tell us more! (But not if it's too personal)

I wonder if the difference in allegiances (to Liz or Tess) depends on when you started watching "Roswell"? It seems like the older fans (I should clarify that by saying 'the ones who started watching at the beginning of Season 1') like Liz, whereas many of the newer fans like Tess. In particular, fans who joined Season 2 saw a much nicer Tess, and very few glimpses of the deep love between Max & Liz that inspired me. But what can I say, I was a science-loving geek with long dark hair too.

Esther

---------------
Sry. if this sounds like OT but it is not.
I just need some maplike thing to imagine all this what is talked in show.

Vihmakass, If you go to http://mapquest.com and put "Roswell" for "City," and "NM" for State, then click, you will get a map of the area. If you zoom out, you will get an idea of how it is situated in North America.

You can also use Mapquest's "driving directions" feature to get exact miles between cities.

Max begins to dream about Antar. ...
...in his dreams there is a female alien that he knows he loves EXACTLY like he loves Liz...
...he discovers that the alien is really Liz, the True Bride. Then he has tries to understand what it means. Is it symbolic? Is it a memory? ...Alexis, WR's fanfic, The Importance of Elizabeth, has some similarities to your idea. If you haven't read it, you should, because I'm sure you will enjoy it. Also, if you haven't read it, then the fact that 2 or more RBIers have come up with the same theory could possibly indicate that this is the direction that the writers will take. I tend not to think they will, because thus far Liz's powers have been associated with her "change" from the healing (rather than being of alien origins). But WR's fiction works around that in an interesting way, and there are several other plausible explanations that don't leave too many plotholes.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, shapeshifter—yes, in fact I have read WR’s fanfic! It is fabulous and I have recommended it to tons of people. It does clear up a ton of plotholes!
Since the summer before S2, however, I have always thought that Max should start remembering Antar and show a connection to Liz. (this was before I became spoiled or even knew about FF) My original idea was that Isabel would be thought as the traitor (which happened on the show) but that Max would start to remember in dreams and witness Tess as the true traitor (but my thoughts were that she thought she was doing it for the good of the kingdom, much like WR’s fanfic. Makes for a better plot twist, questioning whether she has changed or not). I also had some ideas on remembering Liz’s soul in an alien to show the deep connection Max and Liz have. And from the discussions from here, GC’s book could play a great role in Liz realizing her importance!

I'm back from LA, and had a blast at the party plus! I attended a Dreamers Dinner on Friday night that ESQ2BE pulled together! It was wonderful fun!! Then went to Covina on Saturday morning with Reggie, StephStephSteph, and a number of others. Qfanny served as our expert tour guide, with help from ESQ2BE. We took lots of pictures! It was so funny to see all these people walking around with their "walking tour" instructions and cameras. The people of Covina must think we are a strange lot!

The party on Saturday night was a blast! I hung out with many who I now know by first name instead of just their screen name, and met many the I've always wanted to meet. The highlights were:

1) Meeting Kevin Kelly Brown, and giving him the Intro on disk, then chatting with him later to convince him why he should read it.

2) Standing at the end of a table towards the back of the room waiting for my credit card to be processed (I was buying a book and CD) when Brendan and Majandra came walking through the crowds. They ended up, with KKB, right next to me while the security, etc. decided what they should do. I got "stuck" next to them all for about 5-10 mins, and since I had my camera I was able to sneak a few pictures. This is when I first gave KKB the computer disk. Majandra and Brendan looked great, and came in and out of the party quite a few times. They even did a question/answer period that was fun to listen to. Bill Sadler showed up for the auction, which was also great!

3) Chatting with Aaron Harberts (one of the writers). I've heard that he comes to the boards occasionally - so told him about the Liz Myth Thread and told him I gave a copy of the Intro to KKB. (I guess I was on a marketing mission!) Oh - not a spoiler - but AH said that we should all be pleased because Liz is going to be VERY IMPORTANT this next season!! Of course, we always have known that!!

It was all wonderful fun, and I'm so glad I went!

Now back to reality - and catching up on the thread!

BTW - What was the issue on the CHADS thread that caused an interest in the timeline?? I mentioned the timeline to AH, and said if the writers ever had a question, they should use it as a reference source! He seem receptive to the idea!?!

Chat with you all later -
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

I was a bit disappointed to hear that KKB does not think the internet fans are representative of the audience of Roswell???????????????What??????? Excuse me???? He is kidding me right????

Truth is I do know many Roswell fans who do not go onto the internet and post as I do, but they TOO are scratching their heads asking the same questions that we have all had on our minds so KKB take a second look, because the internet is a VERY GOOD SAMPLING of the ROSWELL audience.

Just wanted to pop in and say a quick hello. Returned late last night from LA and am still VERY sleepy!

Unfortunately, after this mini-vacation I have a million things on my desk, so I can't write much, but.. I had a blast in LA! And Covina was great! And a special hi to Zero, Reggie and QFanny - the faces behind the names were just as great as I expected.

See you all later on!

Alexis - I don't have the ability to post pictures, BUT I'm going to send a set of my pictures to ESQ2BE who does, and then I will tell you all about where to go to see our smiling faces!

Grace Kel - I read that on the spoiler board, but you know, I had a great conversation with KKB - and though I didn't get into details of the show like others did, I found KKB very nice and supportive - and he said he would look at the Intro. (You have to figure they think we internet groupies must have some influence, or they wouldn't bother coming and spending 6 hours listening to total strangers tell them how to run the show.) I actually doubt KKB has much influence over storylines, but Aaron Harberts does since he is a writer - so I find AH's impressions of the fan base and storylines more important. To me - my goal wasn't to tell them what I didn't like about Season 2 (which was plenty) but to convince them of ALL the potential there is with the show and how it could live up to that potential. I hope the Intro does that?? (I guess I'm going to have to go reread it sometime to see what I actually say now! )

Regardless - it was fun to meet the people behind the names. I only wish more of the cast had showed up (though I'm appreciative of Majandra, Brendan and Bill!), and that the other writers had mingled more - though maybe they did and I didn't notice them. AH was hard to miss with his "blue" hair spike in front. He was actually extremely nice, and would be a kick to have coffee with to discuss the show. I think Season 3 is going to be fun! (I'm only a little spoiled - and am going spoiler free as of now - I just went over there last night to see what some of the wonderful people I met thought of their party experience.)

Well I have to work, and due to the lack of episodes have no great insights - but do, as always, want to welcome all newbies and lurkers to the Liz Myth Thread!! (And if AH or KKB is reading this - Welcome!! ) (Hope springs eternal! )

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Or some earlier trials of cloning involved only the 'essence' of aliens with the DNA of humans (rather than the DNA of aliens too as Max mentioned in the Season 2 opener). Maybe they got the idea to clone the essences because Past King Zan visited Earth and was involved with GC. Again--a lot like WR's fanfic.

quote:Originally posted by GraceKel:
...I was a bit disappointed to hear that KKB does not think the internet fans are representative of the audience of Roswell???????????????What??????? Excuse me???? He is kidding me right????

Truth is I do know many Roswell fans who do not go onto the internet and post as I do, but they TOO are scratching their heads asking the same questions that we have all had on our minds so KKB take a second look, because the internet is a VERY GOOD SAMPLING of the ROSWELL audience.[/B]Say What!?!??!!!! Hmph. ITA, GraceKel. But then maybe there is another audience out there that he would like to reach--the audience lacking short term memory due to ingesting substances that block the production of certain enzymes? Oh well, I'm not going to complain. Let them be free to create and boldly go where no Podsters have ever gone before in hopes that they may stumble on something really cool. There's plenty of time to sew up plot holes in the future if they do capture a bigger, fuzzier audience.

Okay, this is my last post for anywhere from a week to several weeks.
But y'all know I will try to find a 'puter and at least lurk to see Zero's pics and what Qfanny & Reggie have to report to us RBIs and exactly what StephStephSteph did at the Party.

One last obsessive addition: I've added links in Zero's Intro to Season One Theories and Search the discussion threads (which includes all the SciFi threads archived by Vihmakass).

Bye!

I’m a newly converted Liz Mythologist thanks to Susan/Zero and I wanted to stop by and express my appreciation for all the amazing work you’ve all done compiling and analyzing all this fabulous mythology and theories about Liz. Absolutely fabulous!!!

I can testify that Susan did present her disk of the Liz Myth intro to Kevin Kelly Brown personally and he was very receptive and intrigued by some of the ideas Susan was telling him. I was also lucky enough to be there when Susan talked with Aaron Harberts and it was very exciting to hear that he was a bit familiar with the Liz Myth thread here on Fan Forum. (Just goes to show that the writers do lurk here!)

So it will be an interesting 3rd season, particularly if some of these cool ideas start popping-up in the storylines!!!

And special greetings to Steph, Reggie and Qfanny who I had the pleasure of meeting also for the walking-tour and at the FF party in L.A. You guys rock!!!!!

- Tiffany

Dreams do come true . . .

Shapeshifter - Have a safe and sane move!!

Off to eat lunch - see you all later!!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Anyone else out there feeling that way?
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Sure. I like 'em both, myself. Liz is adorable, and Tess has Moxie (R). If the two of them ever put their heads together, they could straighten out Max in a BIG hurry!

Alexis:
Max begins to dream about Antar. But, of course, Max resists them because he doesn't want to hurt Liz like before (because in his dreams there is a female alien that he knows he loves EXACTLY like he loves Liz but he thinks it's Tess...shudder). This is when he discovers that the alien is really Liz, the True Bride.

Hmm. Sounds like my old idea that Liz's soul was that of his (late) first wife. Tess was his SECOND wife. And his beloved first wife's soul found its way here on its own... With the caviat that all souls, Human or Twilonese, are alike; so that (drum roll please...)
Liz is NOT an !

ESQ2B:
So it will be an interesting 3rd season, particularly if some of these cool ideas start popping-up in the storylines!!!

Goodness, I hope so. I'm spoiled for 3.1-3.3, so all I'll say is... that there are snarky nick-names for them. And the "spoiled CHADs"... PM me if you want details.

Party Report:
I liked the Party, but the Sheridon Universal sucked. There are no drinking fountains, and bottled water is $2 each if the Gift Shop is open. They messed up the ballroom reservation, so we wound up with more people than chairs; they messed up the Universal Studios tour tickets; and their "cable" didn't have the Sci-Fi channel, so we missed Farscape!

On the other hand, the Party itself was a blast. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see or talk to anyone connected with the Show; they were onstage for introductions and a "it's great, and getting better" word or two. BF and MD did a Q&A for 10-15 minutes, not much show related but fun in a "Sonny & Cher after a long day" kind of way. (They're filming 3.2.) BF also played with the band's drums for 10 min. or so; no tunes, but he handles the drums well.

The Covina tour was a hoot. The whole area used is only a few blocks wide and long, and bits of one thing are right beside something completely different. For example, the UFO Museum is across the street from the convenience store that M&M were conducting surveilence from. ("Copies") Of note is that the actual CrashDown Cafe sign is no longer there. We think that they've put it in storage, or installed it on a set in a soundstage somewhere. The doors are still marked with the CD decals, though, and the building (a bar inside) is for rent.

And of course it was very great to meet everyone I've known for so long , and make new friends like ESQ2B!

quote:Originally posted by Zero:
Okay - I've just decided I'm in major Roswell withdrawal, and I'm going to have to get my tapes out of storage (where they have been ALL summer) and start rewatching them! ...and I don't know if I can last another month and a half without new episodes! Anyone else out there feeling that way?

Yes, yes! I didn't go to the party, but I've still been feeling that way. In order to placate my Roswell cravings, I've slowly been rewatching all of the S1 & S2 episodes and keeping up with the daily updates to Roswell Big Brother ( at http://www.geocities.com/roswellbigbrother/). If you haven't seen that British website, you should check it out. They have the characters down to a T, and it's lots of fun!

Hey Zero and Steph

Zero, I am so glad that this was your aim. Thanks for providing him that disc. Now let's hope he considers the contents.

That, of course, leads me to the T sex and I'm curious what people think. Do you guys think that

1. T MW'd Max into believing that he really wanted to have sex with T, so he did and she IS pregnant

OR

2. Do you think she MW'd him into thinking he had sex with her and she isn't pregnant?

OR (this is not my favorite)

3. There was NO MW and the sex was just sex. T is pregnant and Max thought he loved her.

Thoughts?

Style

Zero, question, what about Shiri???? Will she get a copy of the disc?????

I saw a sig on another thread, not quoting "Liz is Roswell".....AMEN

Welcome Back: Zero, Reggie, Steph-Steph, Qfanny, and it's nice of you to join us ESQ2B. I'm glad you all returned safe and sound.

Zero: Leave it up to you to confront TPTB with class. I think they more then likely heard and will remember those of you who showed them respect. Thanks for showing us RBI/Mythers in a positive light.

Steph-Steph: I'm going to have to go with none of the above. You see I know longer see myself as a Dreamer only as a viewer working with the puzzle pieces they give us, and we know how few pieces that is. I guess that makes me more RBI then anything else. My heart left Roswell after EOTW. Anyway back to your question.
I think everything will turn out to be real with Max in his right mind at the time. As you can see I said AT THE TIME. I think Tess had him under some form of mindcontrol all season, but she went into overdrive in OTM, that's if it would have been shown in it's correct order. Let's just say after VLV. I think when Max told Tess he wanted to wake up he was giving all control to her and giving in. She no longer had to continue the mindcontrol because there was no need. Tess broke his spirit and was able to ride him where ever she wanted, no pun intended.
So yes I believe the Tex was real but Tess would have had more fun with a blow up doll because Max's heart wasn't in it.
I also believe that the kid is real but not necessarily Max's. If it is Max's TPTB must think we are all a special kind of stupid. I'm sorry but not even an alien fetus can grow that fast, give me a break. For me the only smart solution is that she was already preggers before the Tex. I think it's Kyle's. With Max and Alex it would be rape no matter how you look at it. Kyle had feeling for her and I for one never saw them as sisterly feeling.
Of course this is all pure speculation, let's face it, JK seems to change direction with out a second thought as to where he was first headed, leading to more chads. So I'd say anything in Roswell is possible as long as JK thinks it is.

Evid

Evid

Interesting idea, Evid!

I never thought of the possibility that the child was someone else's, but I guess at this point ANYTHING is possible. I have to believe that T MW'd Max into thinking he had sex with her. I just have to because I'm a die hard Dreamer and I can't "behr" the thought of Liz not being Max's first.

Of course, I also lurk on the CHADs thread and the idea of there being another HUGE CHAD at the beginning of Season 3 (like if Max DOESN'T go look for his child) is just a tad too much to handle atm.

But it is probably more of the Tess controlled, led Max to have sex with her. Not really mindwarping, but manipulation. Sheer evil manipulation.

But it is probably more of the Tess controlled, led Max to have sex with her. Not really mindwarping, but manipulation. Sheer evil manipulation.

That's what I'm afraid of

I also just watched a clip of an interview with Shiri and the UPN where Shiri said that it was her idea that Sean come into Roswell. That Liz needed a new love interest since her life was not so one-dimensional (purely into Max). Makes me sad because I love Max and Liz together and the idea that Shiri wants Liz to branch out a bit more PROBABLY means a few more rocky roads for my Dream Team

You can see it here.. http://tv.zap2it.com/shows/video/insidetv/insidetv_roswell.html

3. There was NO MW and the sex was just sex. T is pregnant and Max thought he loved her.

You're getting warmer. Max managed to alienate everyone, and turned to the only one left (Tess). He had sex with her; she made love to him... if you see the distinction. The BEMlet is a "hysterical pregnancy", caused by Nikolas's MW of Tess (as seen in MitC). This MW is why she started persuing Max again, even though she'd dropped the idea and was warming up to Kyle earlier. The effects Max sees are subconciously coming from Tess, although she doesn't realize it.
Of course, I explain this better in my fanfic, Departure, Part 2..

Step & WildFire Girl: My Dreamer heart from season one would love for the Tex to be a mindwarp, but the tough RBI in me thinks that it would be way to easy to explain away. I think if JK wanted to make it a mindwarp it would have been revealed last season. But hey you're still Dreamers so by all means continue to Dream, I wish I could.

Evid

I agree with Evid that the baby gestated too quickly to be credible as Max's son even in alien terms. And the other obvious thing that Evid didn't mention probably because it's been mentioned so many times is that two hybrids can't reproduce. Sadly, I think the sex was real (and I agree with Reggie that for one it was just sex and for the other it was making love).

I too consider myself to be a fallen dreamer but I'm just not sure how serious it is. I think I've fallen and I can get up. (Sorry for all who are too young to appreciate that!!!) -HH

I agree with Evid that the baby gestated too quickly to be credible as Max's son even in alien terms. And the other obvious thing that Evid didn't mention probably because it's been mentioned so many times is that two hybrids can't reproduce. Sadly, I think the sex was real (and I agree with Reggie that for one it was just sex and for the other it was making love).

BEMlet: a small BEM (Bug Eyed Monster); that is, Tess's aledged baby. But of course, I believe that it doesn't exist; and that Tess was MWed to believe it did, and to (subconciously) fill in the details including morning sickness and "making" Max believe he had contact with it. The timing on its appearance is too critical for it to be anyone else's, since Max would have to be manipulated to breed her at a pre-planned moment.

IMHO, the podsters are not true "hybrids", since no alien ever bred with a human. Rather, they are human clones, of Grandpa Dupris et al., which have been slightly altered to carry a few additional alien gene(s).

[OT]Zero The CHADS have turned to fanfic, rather than rewatching the shows yet again. In addition to Departure, Part 2, I've also offered Skins & Bone, a CHAD-free, solid-science rework of "Skin & Bones". It's intended as a drop-in replacement. For your enjoyment... [/OT]

I also have a speculations on Liz's Importance to Max I posted it on the spoilers borad last week & got great feed back. I posted it at another board so please read it. These specualtions are my next fan fiction so please PM or email I loved the feed back I got from my story.

http://www.blu5.com/talk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5548

Ros 1 - Great to see you!! I hope KKB looks at the disk??

Hanicika (sp?) - Won't it be great to see some of our ideas show up this season!!

Steph - I'm hoping that the entire Tex was a mindwarp - part of a plan so that she could appear pregnant (or cover up a pregnancy from an encounter with Kyle - that he forgot due to her mind control) and present the "need" to go back to Antar (knowing that she had found the translation of how to use the Granolith). Hope that makes sense? It would be so wonderful if in their adventures during Season 3, Liz uncovers that it was all a mindwarp/trick to get the Pod Squad back to Antar and a public execution. I guess time will tell. IF it was not a mindwarp - I have SIGNIFICANT problems with how Max acted during the Stepford Max Chronicles and WHY? Without some aspects of mindcontrol going on - whether it be from Tess or others - MANY of Max's actions were inexcusable!! The Tex could be real with mindcontrol involved - but I hope that it was all a mindwarp. (again - Liz could mention something like - "What Observatory Max? There is NO Observatory in Roswell!" or "Max - these tapes from the Observatory's survilance cameras show the people there to look at the stars that night, but you and Tess are nowhere to be seen!"

Style - Shiri was not at the party. BUT she was given a copy of the Intro back in February - so she knows of its existance!!

Evid - I thought it would be best to approach them from a positive point - as my mom always said "you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar" - but also, we do have soooooo many great ideas that have evolved out of this sight, and I would love for them to read them! BTW - I sure hope that TPTB DON'T think we are a "special kind of stupid!!"

TinyEppy - Welcome to posting on the thread! For ease - and since I don't want to be spoiled (anymore) - post your speculation here. I'm sure you will get great feedback!!

Well - off to draft a "Parent's Handbook" - oh boy!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

I also have a speculations on Liz's Importance to Max I posted it on the spoilers borad last week & got great feed back. I posted it at another board so please read it. These specualtions are my next fan fiction so please PM or email I loved the feed back I got from my story.

Wow. That was truly amazing. I suggest everyone go and read what TinyEppy wrote. I was particularly impressed with the following:

quote: Dad doesn't believe in soul mate love. He believes you fall in love only once & that's your true love. M & L's love isn't want bonds them together it can't anymore if one partner betrays the link of the bond. It's unfair to the other half. Love that betrayed is stained for life. Nothing could make up for this type of betrayal. No one in really ever truly forgives & forgets. That's impossible, were humans & doubts always remain if not Dad will no longer have a job (He's a therapist). People try to work pass the problems & built new relationships on new things. What's done is done & can't be erased. People have to learn to live with it & of course this takes time & patience for the healing processing to occur. So Dad is positive if the sex is real M & L love isn't he key that bonds them together.

Dad's theory is that Liz's connection to the Royal 4 will be an ancestry that will lead to an ancient alien prophecy. Which doesn't have anything to do with Jeff Parker, but instead to Liz's real birth mother. Dad doesn't feels that Nancy Parker is Liz's real mother . Nancy is to cold & distant with Liz. Jeff is a father & shows more emotion towards Liz. Dad's theory is that Liz is human, but with traces of alien DNA from a noble ancestor of hundreds of years before.

Aliens have been visiting earth for years & on Roswell they take over human bodies. We already know Aliens & human can have sex & if in a human body they could procreate. This will explain why Liz is always saying her body is changing, or why Max's hand glows only on Liz's body (no glowing during Tex) & the fact that Liz feels its right to be with Max (SH). The royal blood line will link Liz to Max sort of as a distant cousin from a different noble house (the symbol of the pendent) making it eligible (politically) for Max to marry Liz.

The Alien Prophecy It will be known to the Royal 4 in the REAL Destiny Book & on the Indian Reservation (the cave) that a prophecy was foretold hundreds of years ago on earth & thousands of years ago on Antar about a special being that holds the key to universal peace & union. On Antar it's gonna be like a religious quest & a very will respected prophecy. Everyone what's the power & of course many have used the prophecy to gain that power that why war is always occurring on Antar & the 5 ruling planets. No one really knows who or when the "Ornament of the Heart" will arrive. (I wanted to name the being perfectly ) or what is the method in which this being will bring universal peace

Liz's Importance will be her uniqueness in the link to 3 noble houses on Antar & earth. Liz will be link to Max by her great great (3 times more) father's side. Liz will also be linked to Kivar by her great great (3 times more) mother's side. Liz will also be linked to Larek for she will be a distant cousin to him by a marriage of one of Larek's ancestors & Liz's great great ( etc) aunt. Liz is human after all and she is a link to the wonders of a precious planet called Earth. Liz without knowing it is one of a kind & won't know the political power could give if she marries a ruling leader.

Liz of course will also be the "Ornament of the Heart" & it's her uniqueness that will bring universal peace. Liz's 1st born child will be the ruling leader of power & peace. Dad really thinks it should be a male child to be King. The way it will be done is by a marriage to end the war & a production of a child that will continue the universal peace for this child will be link to the 5 ruling houses & earth. This way if really won't matter who Liz's marries, she'll still be vital to peace & power. That why Max will always have to be protecting Liz. She's much to valuable to lose. To many alien suitors will want to get her pregnant & marry her 1st.

Liz's connection to Max Besides being distantly blood related, Max during the healing of Liz at the Crashdown transferred some of his eternal human/alien essence to Liz. He had to because Liz Parker unlike Kyle Valienti was actually dead & to bring her back to life Max had to give part of himself to Liz so she will live again. Breaking Max/Zan into 2. Max is incomplete without Liz. Max & Liz are one & the same person. This way the bond of Max & Liz didn't have anything to do with pure true love, but instead of the power healing transfer that brought her back to life. This way the in the cementing we the fans wouldn't lose the strength of the bond & seeing it grow deeper. M & L cementing will be of the same soul bonding into one. The two souls parted becoming one being as it was once in Max. (how romantic I could get. This is what will make them SOULMATES ). Ava was surprise in the healing for she know what Max did & Zan's loneliness will be leaded to his defectiveness lacking his other half of his soul.

Max's healing & transferring caused Liz's alien DNA to awaken slowly which allow Liz to flash on her own without the help of Max & her body constantly changing. Max will help her awaken her alien dormant powers to allow Liz to for full the unit of the Royal 4. Liz alien side will also allow her to perform "Hot Alien Sex" even better then Tess with the soul merging. This connection will be not only physical, but mental, emotional, & psychically. Telepathy will be big between M & L. M & L will be able to sense each other near & feel one another' s pain. This will help with the healing in the TEX & FMax issue. They'll both work pass the problem through the psychic bond. This will be the deep strength of the bond. M & L will be so strong they will be unstoppable.

I'm going back now to see what you had to say about the Destiny Book.

http://www.blu5.com/talk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5548

I have to hold on to hope that Liz is just a human girl who's in love with an alien boy. After TEX I want Liz to much more so she could crush Tess like a BUG in her own house.

Maybe I should go read your FanFic. Then again.. I don't want to become a T is NOT evil fan.

We would all like that TinyEppy. I was wondering though, was Liz completely dead when she was shot? I didn't think so.

Most of the ideas you wrote many people here have also brought up. However, I thought you tied it all together very nicely.

quote:Max will help her awaken her alien dormant powers to allow Liz to for full the unit of the Royal 4.

Aren't the aliens' powers future human abilities?

quote:Liz alien side will also allow her to perform "Hot Alien Sex" even better then Tess with the soul merging.

Sounds good to me! Although a lot of people have said that they do not want Liz to be alien in any way, at this point I don't really care as long as Liz turns out to be a big part of the survival of the aliens. Things were so messy last season that I don't have a lot of faith that Liz will be anything more than Max's love interest (because Liz being important and more than just Max's love interest is what we want - and what we want we don't get!)

quote:Destiny Book Reveals Max‘s Destiny

Dad & I think Nasedo was the real R4 protector which information that was vital only to protect them. Nasedo kept saying he doesn’t care about anything only to protect the R4. Nasedo knew where to find the destiny book, but not what was in it or how many books will they be. Nesedo was obviously just a solider following orders. We think there’s more then One Destiny Book. This will be done to protect the vital information the book will contain about the power that Max will achieve if he for fills the prophecy. Zan/Max & his noble house will be preordained to be linked to the “Ornament of the Heart”. This will be the main reason why everyone wants the R4 DEAD! But no one will know this until the real destiny book is found & decoded. The real book will need keys to open & Max already has the keys- Liz & the pendent

Some interesting points. However, if the other Destiny Book that reveals Max's destiny to have the Ornament of the Heart (nice) has not been opened yet and that will be the reason for wanting the R4 dead, why do all their enemies want them dead now? They don't know yet that Max's destiny will be to have the Ornament of the Heart. I do like the idea that Liz and the pendant are the key to opening the other book though.

quote:Kivar & Why He’s On Earth?

Dad is firm that Kivar needs to make an appearance soon. Kivar’s arrival will be a clue that things with Tess didn’t work out., putting a suspicions out there that either the child is died (Not our favorite) or isn’t truly Max’s (Dad’s Theory) or better yet there’s was no child because there was no real sex (My Theory). If everything went according to plans then Kivar wouldn’t have to come personally that‘s why Nichols is here. Kivar main reason for coming to earth personally is to find the women who will give him ultimate power over the ruling houses & supremacy over the universe. However, in order to find her Kivar needs the Real Destiny Book with holds technological information (plans to built a new granolith. The granolith will be more then beats the eye, It‘s very powerful & it‘s not a spaceship either), historical information (family histories & blood lines,) & prophecitical information (Who is the “Ornament”, What makes her unique, How she brings power, & Who‘s she destined to give power too). . When Kivar’s on earth Isabel will be an obsession, because he really desired Vilandra, but he’s an ambitious man that needs Max dead & when he finds out that Liz is the “Ornament Of the Heart”, he’ll be coming for her. When he see her he to will feel a connection to her, for she is also related by blood to Kivar. Kivar will be the 1st to be suspicious about Liz Parker because he’s so drawn to her & her beauty. Isabelle will later just be a toy for him once again as in there previous life.

Interesting spec. Just brought it over for others to see and discuss.

Well, that's enough for me for now, as I am obviously holding conversations with myself.

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:
We know that humans can be very cruel, but it seems Jason Katims wants us to see the Antarians as ruthless and humans as 'kinder and gentler.'

I have noticed in other shows (especially Star Trek), movies and books that humans have been portrayed as special because we have the capcity for compassion and the ability to endure. Liz obviously has the ability to endure as evidenced by the all the sh*t she went through last season.

The rest sounds okay, but I'm not sure that I want her to be related to Max in any way. Having alien ancestry would be okay. I'd just prefer the connection be of some royal significance to their history, not part of the same family.

ITA ...
I haven't been here in a while because I don't have the shows taped to rewatch and comment on but I just wanted to say that those were awesome specs TinyEppy. I dunno if I like the sound of "ornament" of the heart it makes her sound like a Christmas tree decoration ...oh ok I get it DUH! Sort of like the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit . All three need to merge under one roof to bring back the so-called Savior . Ofoucrse then T (evil, evil,evil little *%^*&# SORRY ) 's baby is going to come back in 06/06/06 all grown up and all these people are going to think he's the Messiah and follow him but ends up he's the Anti-Christ and then...

Nooooow I see what JK is up to!!! Little knew what he was doing all along, eh? Go figure.....

I just tried to PM you about your fanfic, but I'm not sure if it worked?

I'm glad U like my specultions. I have to say this is my new hope for Roswell. M & L have to be connected to one another other then just "LOVE".

I like everyone can make mistakes so yes I forget, but I'm glad U guys get the idea. I'm working on a new specuation on TESS & Max's son. I hope that Max's son isn't too important to Max's throne. I'll post it soon, but until then enjoy my speculations & Thank you All for the great feedback.

I really like the way you've reminded us that the act of Max healing Liz was much more intimate and profound than anything that happened in Season 2. I'm enjoying your ideas. Thanks Essence for bringing them over! -HH

I also think if their so-called kid is the Anti-Christ/the person who will falsly rule and make people think he is the Messiah then maybe the entire point of Max&Liz going thru all this could be so that Liz figures out and knows ahead of time that he's coming...because if Tess doesn't have that child then they will not know the whereabouts of the evil spawn and consequently people might have mistaken Max&Liz's son (the real Healer reborn) to be the and then he dies as a result then so would the world come to an end in an apocaliptic version where bad wins out--which ofcourse is NOT gonna happen .

OK sorry I just like trying to desperately find a better version to make myself think why the heck FLiz would purposely make herself go thru this since she did know what was going to happen. Why didn't SHE go back and tell Max to fall out of love with her?!? Cause he'd be to stubborn to listen...hmmm...yeah thats probably it .
Not to mention the boy is soo not as forgiving.

I'm off for a few days to Vancouver - so I'll catch up when I get back! You all have a great Friday and Weekend!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

AVA: It's all my fault! I should have stopped it. I could have stopped it! I should have known. I should have known.

This is from MITC.
How she should have know this?
Ava is Tess's dupe - they must have similar powers.
And when Ava is heard about Max saving Liz - she undestanding what she was known all time.
This time Zan/Max was found what he was looking for - this was'nt her with whom this all must be happend!She knows about her powers little bit more than Tess.And we can see - dupes has some powers about what R4 doesn't even have dream not bc they don't have them but bc there isn't nowbody who has told them about this powers.
In WR Nasedo must little bit grt back - bc he needed Michael.But that is all - no lessons more.Why?
Learn enough to use your skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy so that you can come back and free us.
Simpel?

Learn enough to use your skills,
learn enough to use your knowledge,
learn enough to use your leadership

Maybe this are only my bad english skills
but...
R4 was bring on the Earth bc humans don't have any (alien similar) special powers.

Nasedo lied - all your skills are human.
(ok, maybe this was halflie - bc in this time R4 didn't know exactly what their powers are and Nasedo didn't know what they know - so he lied).
I think powers/gifts are pure alien thing.
Learn to use skills - humans must obtain skills by learning - not learn use them!

Learn enough to use your skills,
learn enough to use your knowledge,
learn enough to use your leadership

[b]Learn to use skills - humans must obtain skills by learning - not learn use them!

No! NO! Please DON'T STOP!! I feel a sigh or relief when I read your posts . & You know Vih your really got to stop apologizing for your gram & spelling because you are ONE smart dude!!. I had all those strings loose in my head too and your theory makes a lot of sense to me that they were (Tess/Ava) envisioning the future and somehow mistaking that as their own. Although I still think Tess was indeed the true bride back on Antar I also believe that she was seeing into the future...perhaps tapping into Liz's. Remember when Liz got nauscious right outside Tess's house? I always thought it could have been her who crossed that line right when Tess was doing the mindwarping and instead of warping her it just provoked a sense of sickness. And Liz having the human holding the baby in the background in a few scenes.

I definately agree with your view .

And Vihmakass believes Tess isn't really pregnant at all because she has somehow telepathically crossed mindwaves with the Liz from FMax's time line...a Liz who did become pregnant and who subsequently lost her child. I know if Shapeshifter were here she would humbly point out she has touched on these theories as well. Okay, I think I'm with you so far. Carry ON! -HH

As a Liz Parker fan, and have watched the show since the Pilot, and I must say that there is definitely more that meets the eye centering around this particular character. She has a mystique quality that transcend beyond the barriers of normal human existence, but is 100% human.

Hopefully Roswell will in the near future open up some of the doors, and finally reveal her connection to the "three original pods". Yes I am one of the believers on this ideal. Davy

btw. change only some word's in momogram:

"I have sent with you your young bride."

Im not strong in english (maybe somebody help me)but i try.

-I have sent /friends/ with you /to find/ your young bride.-

and then she has mentioned three person's.

And that I may once again hold
you both
in my arms. I live for that moment.
but there is 4 persons but maybe she talking about Max and bride?

For Nasedo this is not big deal erase some words, give some wrong reaction trough Tess and....there she is standing next by Max ,evil young bride! Do you belive that - they was...
Yes,they are R4 - young bride is not - there is possibility -in reality she is not even alien!
And in reality Tess/Ava was second in command bc of her gift - see visions what gonna happen.

Well they nooked Alex when they had to and they had been trying to kill Isabel (member the whole Grant thing? ). I do think that while there is a group who wants them dead there is another group who actually needs them who is just as secretively powerful and just really curious as to the myth thing. Its Roswell God's way of finding balance I guess .

quote:
Somebody come for Tess.Why they waiting?What they waiting?
They used Max - for finding Liz.They waiting little bit - to be compleatly sure. After Blind Date, where Max was kissing Liz in public - they are sure - that girl!
Then they bring Tess Roswell - to separate Max and Liz.

I think there was a group already watching Liz before who had heard of Max and then another group watching Max who heard about Liz forcing the Tess situation. If Max and Liz unite these two groups who in essence are after the same ulitmate goal to restore--well thats probably where we go into pure speculation . Antarian make no sense politics. You'd think the big bad aliens with loads of power could have taken over the world by now ....but they spend their time playing hunt the teenagers instead. Merging the Father/Son (Jesus took care of step I) but broke the Holy Spirit into another group. Thats why most Catholics are awaiting the second coming of Jesus ( he needs to merge the Holy Spirit back into the equation--thats just Catholic myths I'm not saying anything ). Jewish people that didn't make the first boat are still waiting for their "Messiah" which some speculate could dangerously be the "Anti-Christ" whatever you wanna call it/thingy whatever using this as his chance. But if the new Messiah happens to also be Christ in his second coming then voila you just merged a big chunk of good people the right direction and bye-bye Catholic church hello new order .

quote: young bride is not - there is possibility -in reality she is not even alien!
And in reality Tess/Ava was second in command bc of her gift - see visions what gonna happen.

Hmm now thats interesting. More backup to your idea is that line Brody as Larek gave them back in trying to find the queen Jellyfish ...someone said "So if we find the nest then we find the queen" and he replied "NOT necessarily". Meaning that the queen might have not been hidden with the rest of the squad. Leaky pod moving anyone?

You mean we have to wait til Monday to get more of your thoughts ! But you make soo much sense! Come back here!! *Runs after Vih*....
There is no translation thing like babelfish for Estonian/English is there? You realize how upset I am right now that I have no clue how to read Estonian ! Well I do think that the jfq was trying to kill Isabel because remember Grant told her to get out of the car? But I hadn't seen it from the point of view of inteligent alien species. I suppose that what they'd expect to find if say Europa (Jupiter moon) has life...well except for the whole "look at me I can defy earth's gravity" thing .

Have a great weekend then

Style

the was a rock formation that was seen in the flashes and it looked similar to the podchamber rock face and im wondering if that rockface in the flash had some sort of connection to the royal 4 that is why the podchamber in roswell was chosen to house the pods and their secrets

what if the podchamber is in the same line of cordinates as the rockface seen in the flashes. i think this is like the pyramids whith some phenoma in the solor system i think like th pryamids are in the same line of cordinates as the big red spot on jupiter and some other things

or what if that rockface in the flashes is the recieving point of the granolith

brody said in off the menu that zan when he was young and seeing ava for the first time was shy and nervous...........

nicholas in wipeout said that max determined the fate of enemies with the flip of a coin...
a very different zan where he is the opppsite of his youngself......and probably not even remoursefull

we see max in season one shy and maybe a bit nervous in some situations...but season two he is changing to what nicholas discribed

i only hope that his human side kicks in and stops him from doing things that will repeat history

I also think that this change in max is caused from the change of the timeline......or something that is caused by tess

Karen

I did have a great time at the party and hanging out in Covina. I was sort of in a bad mood on Saturday, so I apologize if the walking tour didn't go as well as I hoped.

On Monday, I went on the Paramount Tour. I lucky chance got me on stage 4 - and I saw the set for the Valenti house. Let me tell you, it's tiny!!!

I'll chat more later. But right now I'm trying to calm my nervous for my 3 to 4 hour drive home.

I'll chat more later. But right now I'm trying to calm my nerves for my 3 to 4 hour drive home.

WOW!
Well, I hope you get home OK. And I was grumbling because I got re-routed all over the country, and got home late. You seemed OK at Covina; I had a good time, and I think most others did too. Thank you again for the tour!

Let us know when you're Really Home, so we can relax...

Evid

Karen - great to see you coming out of lurkdom! I was wonderful meeting you, too!

Welcome to all newbies and lurkers !

Vih - Excellent observations! I have always liked that idea that Liz is the hidden "key/5th element" - whatever you want to call it - that is important to the aliens' (and human) survival! I also thought the scene where Liz throws up after leaving the Valenti's was consistent with her fighting off (without realizing it) a mindcontrol effort by Tess. All - very interesting - I'm just waiting to see if the writers go with any of this in Season 3. I made my pitch to Aaron Harberts while at the party! We will just have to wait and see.

Well - you all have been having a great discussion! Keep it up!! :thumps_up:

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Here's the link:
http://www.okiroswellians.com/promo.cfm

I like it when it says the future will be written by the young and they show Liz and then Kyle.

I've got some really funny pictures of me on the plane after we landed, but all my outside shots did not come out.

I didn't think that I was going to die at any point, but I was eyeing the emergency exits towards the end.

its a real metal......apprev is CD

but there is no Cadmium X

Glad to hear you got out of that one, QFanny! Sounds very scarey, but good to see everything worked out for you!

I have way too much to do at the office today, so I'll just be out here.. lurking.. investigate as you were

Alright well I read about this on the Discovery mag on my trip back and I thought well there we go this must be where Liz was a queen from!!!!! Read this about a former "planet V" that is hypothetized to have been the cause of the end of water flow on Mars. I also truly believe that this is where the Egyptians/Sumerians came from. Basically their planet got destroyed and then they had to relocate to earth. There is scientific proof without a doubt that there indeed was a another planet in our solar system "planet V" and it probably ended up in the sun for one reason or another this is also theorized to have been the cause of the great flood (the so-called-Noah's ark incident-real Sumerian version) and other happenings on earth do to the gravitational distortion from when planet V spun out of orbit...

IF you want to read the entire article goto:
http://www.enterprisemission.com/tides.htm

One remarkable development in this regard has been the 'rediscovery' of 25-year-old “lost” NASA data from Levin’s own experiment... 

An Alternative Model of Solar System Evolution
 
In 1978, Naval Observatory astronomer and celestial mechanics expert, Thomas Van Flandern, put forth the idea (based on an original model by Olbers) that a relatively recent “exploded planet” in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter was responsible for the origins of most comets and asteroids in the solar system.

A new model that reconciles major puzzling contradictions among past models is now put forth, using new observations from MGS high-resolution images of Mars and a reevaluation of certain Viking era experiments.  Small-scale surface features are identified which, it is proposed, are the direct product of wide spread ancient and recent bursts of subsurface liquid water.  These water “stains” are shown to cluster (beyond statistical chance) in an unmistakable tidally-determined, bi-modal distribution on the planet: centered near the Tharsis and antipodal Arabia “bulges.”  A revaluation of Mars ancient history is therefore proposed, suggesting that Mars (well after solar system formation) was captured into synchronous orbital lock with a larger planetary companion (“Planet V”), accounting for the clustering of present day water bursts around the former beds of two bi-modally distributed “Mars ancient oceans” as a direct result.  The current Tharsis and Arabia mantle uplifts are shown to be an inevitable additional fossil signature of such former tidal stresses, induced by a close gravitational relationship with Planet V.  Other heretofore inexplicable Martian surface features are shown to be consistent with such a simple "tidal model": Valles Marineris (as an eroded ancient tidal bore, formed immediately post-capture); the presence of the extremely flat terrain covering the northern hemisphere (via deposited sediments from the once tidally supported oceans, when released); and the current trench or "moat" around the Tharsis bulge (from relaxation of Tharsis back into the mantle, after tidal lock was broken).  The long-mysterious “Line of Dichotomy” is explained as a remnant of a “blast wave” of debris from this sudden severing of the former orbital lock relationship with Planet V, due to either a catastrophic collision or explosion.  Chemical signatures of this extraordinary destruction event on Mars are shown to be consistent with the model; including the distribution of olivine preferentially below the line of dichotomy; the presence of primitive mantle and core materials such as iron and sulfur in unusual abundance on Mars surface; and the concentration of proposed “water stains” in areas bereft of olivine.  Mars unusual magnetic field “striping” is now shown to be another unique southern hemisphere signature of this destruction event, caused by standing P and S waves reverberating through the planet’s crust as a result of the massive simultaneous impacts from Planet V debris.  Recently published research showing unprecedented outflow channels from the Tharsis and Arabia bulges are shown to be consistent with the sudden relaxation of the two tidal oceans, as is the sculpting of huge amounts of material by fluvial processes north of the Arabia bulge.  Two possible mechanisms for the destruction of Planet V and the breaking of this tidal lock are outlined.  Finally, a new timeline for Mars geologic evolution is proposed that is consistent with these observations, placing these events between capture ~500 MYA and the destruction of Planet V at 65 MYA.

Our kids might finally be taught the truth of how corn came to be . Don't you just love living in this age and time when we can rewrite our origins and supressed Church secrets are finally out !!! YAY!

"The earth was flat? You people some kind crazy ?! "~Something Aristotle may have said

MORE ABOUT SUMERIANS

Aspects of this model echo another source of surprising information about the solar system: cuneiform records from the earliest “high” civilization, the Sumerian.  Zecharia Sitchin has written extensively about the Sumerian’s uncanny “knowledge” of possible collisional events from this earliest period of solar system history ( 1) With the latest discoveries of radically different extra solar planetary systems and current theoretical efforts to understand these systems in terms of potentially interacting planetary orbits, the relevance of Sitchin’s Sumerian translations should take on new meaning.

1 http://www.sitchin.com/asteroid.htm In The12th.Planet I asserted that an ancient Sumerian text, best preserved in a later Babylonian version called Enuma Elish, which has been taken by scholars to be an allegory or myth about gods fighting in the heavens, was in reality a record of a sophisticated cosmogony dealing with the formation of our solar system..

The Sumerian cosmogony, Sitchin asserted back in 1976, offers the best explanation for many enigmas in our solar system, among them the explanation for the Asteroid Belt.

And this, my friends is only the latest modern discovery that corroborates the amazing ancient knowledge.

ENJOY !!

The question really is if Nick thinks Zan was/is a bad leader, then is that REALLY bad? We know how "good" Nick is.

its a real metal......abbrev is Cd

but there is no Cadmium X

No, of course not. <sigh> Ron Moore was supposed to bring in good Sci-fi, but all of the "SF" that he brought in was idiotic. (Alien elements, flying jellyfish, etc.) His first episode in, and it was crap.

[rant]There are dozens of SF writers who could do better. Ask Stan Schmitt, at ANALOG magazine, for referals, and I'll bet you could have a path beat to your door. Has anyone Officially Noticed that Sci-fi on TV is hot? Look at Babylon 5, Farscape, The Pretender, and The Chronicle; not to mention the syndicated shows like Andromeda, Earth: Final Conflict, First Wave, and Stargate SG-1; the Herc/Xena franchise, and the venerable Star Trek franchise. Oh, and Roswell? :barf: Not only the worst of the lot for Sci-fi, but the worst for plot integrity, relationships/romance, etc. And it could be so good! We know, because it was, and every so often still is; but you can only go so far on potential.[/rant]

Now we've got MM&Co. What do they specialize in?

[/b]TinyEppi, I like the prospect that when Max saved Liz, the "sacrifice" involved more than just risking the loss of his anonymity. You suggest that the act was a physical sacrifice as well. Maybe because this was his "first time" he "gave" something physically;(like a virginity?) he gave her a part of himself that remains there no matter what has happened since. You are right: Ava did look at Liz very strangely when Liz tells her Max had "brought her back". You believe that is because Ava knows that now Max is doomed to being incomplete and lonely as long as he's not one with her?
I really like the way you've reminded us that the act of Max healing Liz was much more intimate and profound than anything that happened in Season 2. I'm enjoying your ideas. Thanks Essence for bringing them over! –HH[/b]

I like the way you are thinking here. Although I believe in reality that sex is the most intimate of all acts (if the two people have love in their hearts of course) , in this context it works well, especially considering S2. Of course, I think it was all a mindwarp, whether it be Nikolas’s action or Tess’s doing.

Healersbabe—although I enjoy the theories of the various scientists that you posted (very interesting) I feel there is no need to bash other’s religious beliefs while sharing new scientific insights into the discussion of Liz Myth. Some may say that the theory that Egyptians/Sumerians being from a different planet could be considered fool hardy as well (even Alex said “It doesn't add up. I mean, the human body is the most intricate and complex machine in the universe. No matter how sophisticated your race is, I mean, how could you possibly just take on human form?” And for that matter, if you believe in evolution, how can you possibly believe that survival of the fittest, etc (Darwin’s theory) can reoccur in the same manner, give or take a few differences such as skin tone, etc, on an entirely different planet? Statistically, it is improbable. On the other hand, in Roswell Land it could be as WR wrote in his fanfic that a species traveled to earth which is more likely than two planets spontaneously generating almost identical species simultaneously. Staticians could back me up on this I am sure.

In any case, let’s leave our opinions about other’s religions on the OT board, please. It’s not really what Liz Myth is about. Thank you!

[rant]There are dozens of SF writers who could do better. Ask Stan Schmitt, at ANALOG magazine, for referals, and I'll bet you could have a path beat to your door. Has anyone Officially Noticed that Sci-fi on TV is hot? Look at Babylon 5, Farscape, The Pretender, and The Chronicle; not to mention the syndicated shows like Andromeda, Earth: Final Conflict, First Wave, and Stargate SG-1; the Herc/Xena franchise, and the venerable Star Trek franchise. Oh, and Roswell? :barf: Not only the worst of the lot for Sci-fi, but the worst for plot integrity, relationships/romance, etc. And it could be so good! We know, because it was, and every so often still is; but you can only go so far on potential.[/rant]

Now we've got MM&Co. What do they specialize in?

ITA with you, especially on the relationship, character-integrity issues. As a aspiring writer, it makes me queasy thinking about how they distorted such fantastic characters. I am hoping they fix it, but I don't know how. Well, actually I do *cough mindwarp cough*.

To answer your question MM specializes in teen suspense novels. I have read the Roswell series (10 books) and I thought that although it was entertaining, there were some rather cheesy plot twists. I read dozens of young adult novels (I am breaking into the teen novel writing business) and some of the things she put in that series were what I call "groaners" or what produces the old "eyes to heaven" reaction!

BUT I began reading MM's Fingerprints series and it is a million times better. Her characterization is fabulous. Her characters are hilarious (she adds a lot of their own thoughts into the book which really adds to their characterization). It is sci-fi-ish, as the main character, Rae can read people's thoughts by touching their fingerprints. The suspense is good as well. She does a great job of hooking the reader into rooting for two main characters to get together even though there are obstacles in the way. She also takes her time in telling the story which is something the writing staff needs in S3!

Anyhoo, that's what she is good at: teen humor, suspense and a bit of sci-fi and psy-fi and she does include romance into the mix.

I am guessing that the Royal seal will be passed on to Liz during the climax, the ultimate event that will show that Liz is the yang balance that will complete the new leader, who is now Max/Zan, not Zan/Max as so many people often write....

By Liz receving the Royla Seal on her brain during the climax with Max, then this would prove that she is indeed the true lifebond partner for the Earth King, Max...since she will be able to receive it in the first place...

Hence the reasons Max and Liz keep making mistakes with each other...they have not "bonded" yet, in total completion...once that happens, then they will be inseparable, like FMax stated in EOTW.

Max and Tess never came to this ultimate and itimate level because he sent her away...thust he is able to be separated from her...thus no bond....

So we have to wait and see (and hope) what happens when Max and Liz's bodies re-prepare themselves for sexual contact with each other....I think the urges in Sexual Healing for Liz and Max were wake-up calls to show Liz and Max their connection just like the dreams were for the aliens to learn of their past...am I making sense here???

I am guessing that the Royal seal will be passed on to Liz during the climax, the ultimate event that will show that Liz is the yang balance that will complete the new leader, who is now Max/Zan, not Zan/Max as so many people often write....

By Liz receving the Royla Seal on her brain during the climax with Max, then this would prove that she is indeed the true lifebond partner for the Earth King, Max...since she will be able to receive it in the first place...

Hence the reasons Max and Liz keep making mistakes with each other...they have not "bonded" yet, in total completion...once that happens, then they will be inseparable, like FMax stated in EOTW.

Max and Tess never came to this ultimate and itimate level because he sent her away...thust he is able to be separated from her...thus no bond....

So we have to wait and see (and hope) what happens when Max and Liz's bodies re-prepare themselves for sexual contact with each other....I think the urges in Sexual Healing for Liz and Max were wake-up calls to show Liz and Max their connection just like the dreams were for the aliens to learn of their past...am I making sense here???[/B]

Well, I think this would be a very interesting story line indeed, although I don't think that having the characters have sex would be necessary. They are already connected and it is in recognizing this connection that they will be empowered. I feel that it is more important for Liz AND Max to realize they need to follow their hearts (as Liz promised she would do, and in some ways she has failed to do, i.e.wanting to tell Max about what she did in EOTW. But that conflicts with her character a bit, but that's another topic ). If Max had fully followed his heart he would have held fast to his belief that Liz would never do that to him and he would have confronted Kyle and tried to get information out of him. Well, I can go on and on about character inconsistency (which is related to this)but then again both these characters realization that they belong with eachother is a main theme of the show! So, here's to them realizing it!

As far as Liz realizing her ultimate importance as it relates to the Podsters, I want her to rediscover GC's book!

Oh, the story line potentials.

And I am all for slowing the plots up a bit. Finding a clue in one episode and discovering others gradually is intriguing if done properly. I don't want Roswell to turn into a episodic, as opposed to a story arctic (not really a term!) show as a good number of shows end up becoming.

Umm, what on earth are you talking about me bashing any religion? This is information published in the most renound scientific journals in the country ?!? Do you watch CNN?? And if you must know I am babtized Catholic. Foremost I believe in a Universal religion where there is one God like Liz does. Hawkins (who backed this up) said--true science is in hard evidence. Its no myth that the Catholic church has supressed valuable information--you know like Galileo ring a bell?!? And there is almost without a shadow of a doubt that there is more concreate evidence in the existance of a Planet V than there are to proove Darwin's evolution "theory" (not a law).

Just for your information, if there was indeed a jump from ape to man...how come you haven't found ONE casket worth of evidence from ONE complete body of this so called evolutionary process jump? Not one single complete body from ape to man...so what happened? And this show is, about well :aliens:. Thus the title "Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology".

This is NASA's findings in another planet that has FACTUAL trace of harboring water (Mars-not to mention Planet V might have). Its pretty much the hot topic of conversation in all scientific group studies of you know.... How this ties even more is in the thought that some of us share in which Liz might have ancient ties to another alien race that inhabited earth years ago--like the native American ties etc....so this is very interesting indeed. Sorry, just thought I'd share. It just seemed more fun to keep it somewhat scientifically believable .

I was doing a little reading about Lucid Dreams and OBE. I found this little bit of information very interesting.

During sleep paralysis, the awake and alert mind
keeps up its good work of showing us the world it expects is out
there -- although it can no longer sense it. So, then we are in a
mental dream world. Possibly we feel the
sensation of gravity as that part of sensory input shuts down,
energy runs through out our senses,
and then feel that we are suddenly lighter and float up, rising
from the place where we know our real body to be lying still. The
room around us looks about the same, because that is our brain's
best guess about where we are. If we did not know that we had
just fallen asleep, we might well think that we were awake, still
in touch with the physical world, and that something mighty
strange was happening -- a departure of the mind from the
physical body!

Sounds a lot like Hot Alein Sex don't you think? And from the look on Max's face the morning after, something mighty strange must have happened.

Evid

Just for your information, if there was indeed a jump from ape to man...how come you haven't found ONE casket worth of evidence from ONE complete body of this so called evolutionary process jump? Not one single complete body from ape to man...so what happened?

The Papist church did NOT "supress" Galileo's findings. He published it, and THEN they got upset. The various other churches had no such problems.

There is plenty of evidence for Darwin's "Theory of Evolution". Man did not evolve from "apes" via one "missing link". There's a whole chain of links... actually, more like a bush, because there are other branches as well. Pretty well doccumented in the fossil record, and the new DNA evidence is confirming it. Not "one body", but a graveyard full of different ones.

There is not nearly enough material in the asteroid belt to produce a planet; and (due to the Law of Conservation of Momentum) it can't just "fall into the Sun" or anything like that. This really just sounds like a re-hash of Velikovski's "Worlds in Collision" nonsense, where Jupiter spat out Venus, which played pinball through the inner solar system until it settled into its current orbit.

Sounds (out of body experiences) a lot like Hot Alein Sex don't you think? And from the look on Max's face the morning after, something mighty strange must have happened.

Evid

Well - isn't this the "power" Liz has. Go figure "frigid" Liz to have sexual powers.... Puts a whole new meaning on astral projections. I'm surprised she doesn't try it more...

Right, and JF is an actor/director rather than a writer. He does not create stories or plots; rather, he puts them on film (as I understand it.). The trouble is, that no one seems to have the grasp of characters or long-term plot that most sci-fi writers have. Imagine, if you will, what Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle would do with Roswell. Let Gordon Dickson consult on the military stuff (Kivar, Nikolas, et al.). Roger Zelany for the "wierd stuff". Get my drift?

Ron Moore: Sorry, Star Trek is usually not considered an exemplar of "hard" SF. When The Traveler made the Enterprise's engines work better by thinking at them...
It's good, especially for TV, but it was never intended to be real SF. "Wagon Train to the Stars", Gene Rhoddenberry called it. And RM's credibility for science got flushed, when the "Cadmium Echs" line turned up. Yes, I get tetchy about my science. Reality IS. Cope with it, or deal with it; you can't just ignore it. ST:TNG is notorious for that. DS9 was better, Voyager worse.

Like I've said elsewhere, ask Stan Schmitt at ANALOG for referals to writers. Put a V-8 in your go-cart!

Edited to add:
Qfanny: "Well - isn't this the "power" Liz has. Go figure "frigid" Liz to have sexual powers.... Puts a whole new meaning on astral projections. I'm surprised she doesn't try it more...

Hey! That's our Liz you're talking about! Underneath the uniform, she's got polka-dot underware. She's more fun than she appears on the outside. And (in S1), she was more than warm enough: SH, anyone?

Plus, Max was with Tess for that bout, wasn't he? No Liz involved.

~~ Well...this is what I have left to say. With everything that has happened, and with the spoilers I have heard for next season...I think the character of Liz is just going to be left as a simple twist of luck that fell in Max Evans lap. I just feel that nothing big and page turning is going to be written in for Liz. ~~

Personally, I would have loved to have seen what my all time favorite, Heinlein, could have done with Max and Liz's relationship. Niven is great and I've read some Dickson. The others I haven't read. I haven't read much SF lately. Being a mom of two young ones kind of turns the brain to mush.

quote:Ron Moore: Sorry, Star Trek is usually not considered an exemplar of "hard" SF. When The Traveler made the Enterprise's engines work better by thinking at them...
It's good, especially for TV, but it was never intended to be real SF. "Wagon Train to the Stars", Gene Rhoddenberry called it. And RM's credibility for science got flushed, when the "Cadmium Echs" line turned up. Yes, I get tetchy about my science. Reality IS. Cope with it, or deal with it; you can't just ignore it. ST:TNG is notorious for that. DS9 was better, Voyager worse.

There isn't much "hard" SF on TV and I don't think Roswell is supposed to be considered "hard" either. After all, it originated on The WB. BUT, it could and should be better!

Just for your information, if there was indeed a jump from ape to man...how come you haven't found ONE casket worth of evidence from ONE complete body of this so called evolutionary process jump? Not one single complete body from ape to man...so what happened? And this show is, about well :aliens:. Thus the title "Liz's Importance to the [b]Alien Mythology".

This is NASA's findings in another planet that has FACTUAL trace of harboring water (Mars-not to mention Planet V might have). Its pretty much the hot topic of conversation in all scientific group studies of you know.... How this ties even more is in the thought that some of us share in which Liz might have ancient ties to another alien race that inhabited earth years ago--like the native American ties etc....so this is very interesting indeed. Sorry, just thought I'd share. It just seemed more fun to keep it somewhat scientifically believable .

[/B]

Hey there healerbabe ,

~~ I just wanted to say that I'm with you. However, I have to add this. "Post whatever the hell you want". Nobody, and I mean nobody has the right to tell you what to post...as long as it's your beliefs and your not bashing no posters...your just fine. But it seems to me that everytime someone brings up their religious beliefs or point of views on religion, they are told they are "attacking" the other persons "religious beliefs"...when really your only expressing your own and your point of view.

~~:star So listen up people, "If an individual person posts their own religious beliefs, and you don't agree with them...they are not attacking you. They are simply expressing their own views. If you can't handle that persons views, then it's as simple as this...DON'T RESPOND TO THAT POST."

And I quote, "Galileo made things worse by suggesting that, where the Bible conflicted with common sense and science, it was being allegoricall. He even went so far as to say that anyone who could not see the clear logic of the evidence against an Earth-centered universe was being stubbornly stupid. (...)

In 1616 the Church declared that Copernicanism was false, and commanded Galileo to abandon the doctrine. He had it revoked but, despite following all the conditions laid down by the new Pope, the Church finally had him brought before the Inquisition and sentenced him to house arrest, but by then it was already to late. Although Galileo complied with the Church's command, it was already widely perceived that science had demonstrated new truths about the universe which could not be erased by religious dogma."~STEVEN HAWKINGS

quote:
There is plenty of evidence for Darwin's "Theory of Evolution". Man did not evolve from "apes" via one "missing link". There's a whole chain of links... actually, more like a bush, because there are other branches as well.

Exactly so how come we don't have ONE body found in this chain of links? What the three million humans that existed in that time ALL disappeared not leaving ONE single body of evidence in the chain? We had dinasaurs bones that where there loads of ice ages after that have been found. And where in the Bible do they mention dinasaurs?

quote: Not "one body", but a graveyard full of different ones...

From your Darwin's mouth himself:
Darwin in The Origin of Species wrote:-

'The number of intermediate varieties which have formerly existed on earth must be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links?..(this)…is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory.'

There are no intermediate fossils of any significance in the fossil record. About a ¼ of a million fossil species exist in the museums of the world, and you can pretty much count on the fingers of one hand the number of fossils evolutionists are today seriously putting forward as intermediate forms – and even then the evidence is disputed. It is a common misconception that the fossil record is evidence for Darwinian evolution – it is not. All that is revealed by the fossils is that new species appear out of nowhere, fully formed, stay the same for huge periods of time, and then disappear. The absence of intermediate forms has been called a 'trade secret,' by the world famous scientist Stephan J. Gould.[/i]

If you need actual proof that there are indeed no "graveyard full of different ones..." just hop by your local museum and check your facts.

quote:
There is not nearly enough material in the asteroid belt to produce a planet; and (due to the Law of Conservation of Momentum) it can't just "fall into the Sun" or anything like that.

Earth Systems Processes, Global Meeting,
Edinburgh, June, 2001

Chaos killed the dinosaurs
Subtle shifts in the solar system could have caused the dinosaur-devastating crash.

A subtle celestial wobble may have made a big impact on the dinosaurs
© SPL

A bizarre wobble 65 million years ago, perturbing the orbits of Mars, Earth and Mercury, may have caused the demise of the dinosaurs, new models of the Solar System suggest.

The celestial upset could have disrupted the trajectories of asteroids - normally safely confined to asteroid belts -sending one or more careering into the Earth. The proposed wobble coincides with the Cretaceous-Tertiary (K-T) boundary, when an asteroid or comet is thought to have smashed into Earth, exterminating the dinosaurs.

"The ultimate cause of the K-T impact - and the demise of the dinosaurs - may have been a chaos-induced change in Solar System dynamics," astrobiologist Bruce Runnegar of the University of California in Los Angeles told the Earth Systems Processes Global Meeting in Edinburgh, Scotland, yesterday."

This was in the news this year. If you need any more back up grab your local copy of Scientific American, swing by NASA.com or click on the link I gave in my last post about this. Hope that helps you out .

~~ Well...this is what I have left to say. With everything that has happened, and with the spoilers I have heard for next season...I think the character of Liz is just going to be left as a simple twist of luck that fell in Max Evans lap. I just feel that nothing big and page turning is going to be written in for Liz. ~~

Isn't THAT the friggin truth !!! TrueHeart right on!
qfanny I was ROTFL!! damn right thats the so called power she has and wow go figure ...she may be able to get Max there w/o getting to the sex part !! Go figure Liz with sexual powers who'd guess thats what they meant by "lay of the land" !!

The OBE and lucid dreams are apart of astral projections. Evid's point on OBE sounding a lot like alien sex made me think that Liz's altered status was more necessary than not if Max intends Liz to be his mate.

-- And if you agree with that idea, let's not even mention what Max did to Kyle.

~~ I just wanted to say that I'm with you. However, I have to add this. "Post whatever the hell you want". Nobody, and I mean nobody has the right to tell you what to post...as long as it's your beliefs and your not bashing no posters...your just fine. But it seems to me that everytime someone brings up their religious beliefs or point of views on religion, they are told they are "attacking" the other persons "religious beliefs"...when really your only expressing your own and your point of view.

I hadn't read that til now!!! Thank.u for that . I know I shouldn't get upset but you know all I'm trying to do is help make more sense not to make people feel bad. I try to be careful !! But fact is fact.

You're right on btw!!

I think Liz is "the lay of the land"

Max has nothing to worry about.

I only compared the moment of Max healing Liz to sex, or rather, his giving a part of himself almost like his virginity to her, because it was so intimate. Could Astro projection be sexual? I say heck yeah! It's communication, after all, and Liz and Max need everything they can get in that department. Here's to hoping she really does have that gift; it's hardly been confirmed this far. I don't think she's frigid, though. She's just young and inexperienced, naturally cautious and wanting to be completely in control. That's her.

I sincerely hope the writers make her more than "just a piece of good luck that fell into Max's lap." That sounds so demeaning in reference to my revered hero. I must admit that I was disappointed in the promo we could view on the previous page. It focuses primarly on the three Antarians and not much on the humans who support them.

Edited to say, healersbabe, while I don't think Liz is frigid, she is not "the lay of the land" either... I sincerely believe she is too pure in all senses of the word. -HH

Remember at the end of MITC when Liz is looking for the change? Her boyfriend looking on, also somewhat fascinated? Ok, a different time and a different place that scene could have been about losing virginity? More evidences that Liz's Importance to the Alien (Max) Mythology is sexual as well.

Talk about finding prince charming!!

I think Zero's eyes will spin after reading this :eyespin: Has Liz's sexuality ever been discussed before in such a manner relevant to the topic?

Sexual intercourse is that. Feelings, such a love with same, is the ulitmate. Both together is the strength. And what I remember, in SH, there were constant interruptions. One the orb. Therefore, the beginning has just begun. Hmmmmmm, this "good luck" save Max's life once more. Turn the page to the next chapter, Liz is human, but she has THE ESSENCE OF A QUEEN.

Style

As for the sex talk I always go back to the Sexual Healing episode in which Michael made this statement:

Go for it Maxwell for the good of all mankind you lucky undeserving dog!!!

Qfanny: I agree with Reggie. Liz was and never will be frigid, let's not forget the orgasm she had when Max caressed her hand on SH.
The point I was trying to make is that it sounds like Tess and Max might not have had physical sex, that maybe it was nothing other then Sleep Paralysis, a mental dream world.
The information I posted stated that the room around us looks about the same, because that is our brain's best guess about where we are. If we didn't know that we had just fallen asleep, we might think that we were awake, still in touch with the physical world.
So let's say Max didn't know that he had fallen asleep, so for all he knew he was still in the physical world. My GUESS is that Tess has the mental powers to take Max into a mental dream world where she is his lover.
I just think the writers had Max point out the hot alien sex in detail so we would second guess the Tex being real.
But you made a good point Qfanny. If Liz has a similar power, then Liz can be with Max mind, body and soul when they cement, and we all know Max won't be sleeping when Liz is his lover.

Evid

Evid

You all never fail to amaze me!

Hi to all newbies, recent returnies and lurkers!

And remember - no spoilers - even eluding to you feelings based on spoilers is a no-no since we want to remain spoiler free - but of course preview are okay to chat about! And I can tell you that regardless of what the spoilers have to say - and I'm spoiler free since the Party - my discussion with a writer at the party leads me to believe Liz is going to be VERY important this season! Of course, I was on my "marketing" mission - so we will see!

Okay - I have to sleep now! You all have a great day tomorrow - I can hardly wait to see what you all are chatting about next time I come back!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Apparently keeping this thread from becoming a religious debate has made it just that. Not my intention.

Apologies all around.

QFanny, yes, the change Liz is looking for in MITC could be a "loss of innocence" of sorts. That would go well with my theory that Max gave her something in the chemistry of his healing. -HH

ITA! I was talking to one of my non-Roswell-fan-friends about the boards and posting and he asked, "What do you talk about all summer when Roswell isn't on?" Well, here it is!

I don't have much to input on any of it, but .. it passes the time and keeps me from going insane without Roswell!

yes people, Liz's sexaulity has never really been address that much in detail, however, she is not frigid, and she wants to have sex, but not with Sean or wiht kyle or with anyone, I think that she and Max will natrually feel sexaully toward each other without hormones, later on in their relationship, when they are more mature...

However, Liz's connection to Max needs to be re-examine, the hell with the baby, re-establish the bond between Max and Liz...and get back to 3 things, GC's book, River Dog, and the Orbs...try to communicate again with the orbs

yes people, Liz's sexaulity has never really been address that much in detail, however, she is not frigid, and she wants to have sex, but not with Sean or wiht kyle or with anyone, I think that she and Max will natrually feel sexaully toward each other without hormones, later on in their relationship, when they are more mature...

However, Liz's connection to Max needs to be re-examine, the hell with the baby, re-establish the bond between Max and Liz...and get back to 3 things, GC's book, River Dog, and the Orbs...try to communicate again with the orbs

[/B]

I think that it is interesting how Liz had so many reactions to bonding with Max. She got glowing hickies, she saw flashes, she got revved up really quickly, Max was able to make her skin glow, she couldn’t sleep and she had a fever. I am sure I forgot a few. The point is this all happened to her and not to Maria. At all.

I think the writers are really short changing things by not going into this. Why not have a SH2 of sorts, where the orbs glow again and another clue is found. Maybe the ship that crashed? It is evident that things happen to Liz that do not happen to any other character! Why is this? The real question is why don’t the writer’s answer the very questions they posed? I am an aspiring writer and I have read at least a dozen books on the craft of writing and a few rules stick out for me that RosWriter’s break consistently:

1) Keep your characters consistent (can we say “Stepford Max?”). This doesn’t mean the character can’t grow, in fact it isn’t good writing if they don’t grow, but for them to do a complete 180 is absurd.
2) Don’t let things go unresolved forever (mystery is part of writing. No one would continue reading or watching something if it wasn’t intriguing, but resolution is key to a carthartic reaction to someone’s work.).
3) When you ask the reader/viewer questions, make sure you answer them!
Why does Liz have strange reactions in SH?
How has Liz really changed?
Will her powers increase?
What are her powers?
Why were the Podsters brought to earth in the first place?
Why earth?
Who thought of the jellyfish queen idea and who approved it?

Inquiring minds want to know!

4) Do not assume your reader/viewer is ignorant. Do not explain things, show them. (this is evident when Larek has to explain the DNA/Alien DNA Gandarian bridge. Of course the characterization rule is a stronger rule, so having had Liz (who is a science whiz) explain it to the other characters would have been suitable.

Oh, I could go on and on. As a positive note to the writer’s I have to say they have done a wonderful job (esp. in S1) in writing lines for characters that are “quotable” or can be used in an ism. These usually pull up an image in your mind that sticks. These include:

Follow your heart.
What’s so great about Normal?
Stepping out from behind the tree.
I just wanted to keep you warm.
It was you.
I saw him as he saw me, and in his eyes I was beautiful.
Secrets make you feel like you do belong.
It was only natural.
Leaving Normal
Sometimes your heart takes you where it should never be.
Look-into-my-eyes soulmate thing
Grief Relief
I was just returning her pencil
I’m glowing on the inside—my toes, my heart.
The movie got bad reviews.
You’re the one Liz. The only one.
I’m coming for you, Liz

Oh there are so many more!

As far as Season 2 goes, after ARCC, it sucked, THC would had been good if they had been the first few eppy pre-Tess in Season 1.

It's just like Jason Behr said, when Tess came that really changed the show, and he's right because with her cam ethe "destiny" storyline, which was further complicated in Season 2,

But re-establish the connection between Max and Liz, and what happended to Serena? Is she still going to be a friend of Liz or what???

Watching Roswell makes me feel like I missed a few chapters because the pages were stuck together. Katims for goodness sake, unstick them already. Stop with the questions?????? and give us some answers.

Evid

Watching Roswell makes me feel like I missed a few chapters because the pages were stuck together. Katims for goodness sake, unstick them already. Stop with the questions?????? and give us some answers.

Evid[/B]

I like the way you worded that, Evid That’s exactly how I feel and I fear that if they don’t clear these things up all the viewers will feel far worse than us!

Avaspeaks—we are definitely on the same wavelength!

Does anyone know if UPN has had crossovers with other shows? I don't watch enough on UPN to know.

Edit - typo

Does anyone know if UPN has had crossovers with other shows? I don't watch enough on UPN to know.

Edit - typo

Can you post the link to that article. I would be interested in reading it! Or pm me. Or tell me where I can find it! Thanks!

Here's the direct link
http://www.crashdown.com//news/2519.shtml

Since we can't discuss religion, how about politics?

Did you all see on the news that the press is all over Condit for describing himself as a "stand-up guy?" Apparently the term is an old gangster phrase that signifies a person who is used by a villain to divert attention from suspicious activities.

Funny, that's what Tess called Kyle in VLV. I didn't understand the phrase when she used it then, but the line must have been foreshadowing!

Zara

I never knew that about "stand up kind of guy." I always thought it meant someone who was able to stand up for their beliefs, not necessarily take the heat for others. Very interesting choice of words on Tess's part! -HH

Oh - and Sex, Politics and Religion are always welcome subjects - just keep it clean and friendly! Remember, we are all just expressing our opinions - there is no right or wrong in the world of Roswell - just an occasional inducing scenes!

BTW - I do think we have discussed Liz's sexuality - in relationship to Max many times; however, not in depth.

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Evid

therefore the only part of him that is alien is his soul.....or a signiture in his DNA

Edited to add: avaSpeaks, when did Jason Behr make that comment about Tess changing the whole atmosphere of the show? Curious.

Just wasting some time at work, per usual, and thought I'd bop over and check out my favorite thread.

Evid and Alexis: On the idea of S3 producing some answers - have faith! When I was in LA that's all I talked about was how badly I wanted some of these CHADs to be un-CHAD-ded, for lack of a better term. There was a good point made in that JK and all of the writers have been writing Roswell as if it was going to end at The Departure. Not that that would have tied everything up nicely, but they wrote, they wrote some more and then they wrote to end. Now? With S3 coming up - they can write to tie things up AND produce more in depth story lines. The key, IMHO, is to tie in things we've already seen and make them into bigger plots, without creating more questions. I have faith (at least for a little while ).

QFanny: On Liz and her "frigidity" (tm haniczka), I liked the way things went with Liz and her sexuality. Although, I admit it's a tad bizarre how she was SO into Max and "shower scenes" and then she dropped it completely, I think it was smart not to delve TOO deeply into that. I don't like the way T and Max (supposedly) hoped into the sack. These kids may look 30, but they're supposed to be high schoolers. One other thing that I pointed out a little bitty ago was that Shiri actually asked to be more "two-dimensional" - less "all for Max" and more for Liz. I saw a clip of an interview she had with UPN and that's what I got from it.

Oh.. and Evid, I love that clipart! I saw it on the OTO Thread and commented to BigSpam, who had posted it over there.

Qfanny—I was watching Leno last night and the blond actress who is in Planet of the Apes was talking about a plane crash similar to what you experienced. It sounded like the same flight, although it could be a taped show. Don’t know much about Leno. BUT she said that the airline tried to make her pay for the flight but she had video taped what happened and audio was recorded of the pilots saying they didn’t have a reserve battery on board (which they are supposed to have). So, if that was the same flight I hope you didn’t have to pay for another flight!

On Liz Myth I would have to disagree with Liz calling herself frigid at the fountain. Just because you decide you are not ready to have sex (especially at age 17) that doesn’t make you frigid! I heard on the radio that virginity is back in vogue, so a lot of people are waiting until later for this. Yes, Liz is not like, say, Lonnie, in terms of her free wheeling sex life, but then again she wasn’t “raised” with the attitude that sex is an act in and of itself (making the beast with two backs) as opposed to an expression of love (Liz and Max say “made love” when referring to sex).

StephStephSteph—I just wanted to add that I think Liz was so into the physical aspect of her relationship with Max in SH because the Orb was sending out the vibe. That is why they had the scene with Max and Liz in the jeep before going to face their parents. It was a test and Liz even asked if it was all about the orb. Max, being an honorable guy and being head over heals in love with Liz obviously wanted more and so they trully began dating without complications until Tess came into the picture which lasted 2 eps I believe (that’s a long time it seems in TV land). They were still making out, etc in Crazy a la “The movie got bad reviews” it just wasn’t alien-intense!

Yes, I want to see this as well as tie up EOTW. Were Liz and FMax successfull in averting the EOTW? Why was it necessary for Max to be with Tess?

Plus I want Liz to discover her own destiny, like Liz asked in Sexual Healing. "What's my destiny?"

Truth seeker, sexual powerhouse, friend and lover.

Queen.

quote:Originally posted by Alexis:

On Liz Myth I would have to disagree with Liz calling herself frigid at the fountain... ....I heard on the radio that virginity is back in vogue, so a lot of people are waiting until later for this.
[/B]
Well, I just thought it ironic the with Evid's idea that hot alien sex sounded like OBE. That's so close to Liz's supposed powers I got me wondering. Many people think that Liz said frigid, it's not the first time I've read about it. But just the misunderstanding of the wording itself added to my rather indecent suggestion. I don't think that Liz is frigid, if that what you all thought.

You know something...that you're absolutely right. They aren't really hybrids unless the alien bodies (brain or something) was used instead of a human brain etc...thats the only real way they could be hybrids...maybe they have more accessible flow for energy I dunno...in which case then if its 100% human bod Tess could definately get pregnant from Max. And yes, they already said that the aliens are just humans evolved 3000+years .

Alexis I got your PM .
Evid I that 6th Rock animation!! Soo pretty!!!! Shiri looks soo graceful!!Thanks for posting that!!

The flight must be a different one, although they slid on a field as well. There have been a lot of plane crashes in the news. Scary!
quote:Originally posted by Alexis:

On Liz Myth I would have to disagree with Liz calling herself frigid at the fountain... ....I heard on the radio that virginity is back in vogue, so a lot of people are waiting until later for this.
[/B]
Well, I just thought it ironic the with Evid's idea that hot alien sex sounded like OBE. That's so close to Liz's supposed powers I got me wondering. Many people think that Liz said frigid, it's not the first time I've read about it. But just the misunderstanding of the wording itself added to my rather indecent suggestion. I don't think that Liz is frigid, if that what you all thought.

[/B][/QUOTE]
Well I know there are some people who think of Liz as robotic “Lizbot” so that could invariably lead to her being thought of as frigid. But we know that she isn’t because of SH and the fact that if Fmax hadn’t come to see her she and Max would have cemented.

I, too, think it is an interesting comparison between OBE and “Hot Alien Sex” although having experience OBE I’d say it is nothing like it! In fact, you don’t really “feel” anything, but you are aware of your surroundings.

Oh I wanted to say that I think the sex/orb/connection issue is a big one the writer’s just dropped, although maybe the fact that Michael and Maria consummated they could reintroduce it. They really should re-establish the connection between Max and Liz!

Edited to add: avaSpeaks, when did Jason Behr make that comment about Tess changing the whole atmosphere of the show? Curious.

It was on Crashdown.com, they pasted the article where it came from, it might had been pre-ARCC commentary with JK...but it was truthful statement that he made, it did change the show, becuase it changed the formula nd the balance and what the show was really about...

Same with SA's comments about how she was distrubed that Season 2 shifted from the focus of Max and Liz...

Netty - welcome to our little thread. Dragons?? Well - there has been lots of discussion on what Dragons mean in different cultures and why Liz has one on her window that everyone goes in and out of - and is so prominant in some scenes. I think - if you go to the Intro and search for "dragon" you will find some discussion re: the topic, and Shapeshifter may have some links/info in her archives??? Hope that helps!

Back to work - but all the talk about Hot alien sex and the ORBS is very interesting. I look at it this way - "sex" (what may have occured with Tess?? though I hope not) is a physical act of the moment; "making love" (which is what I hope Max and Liz eventually do and what I think Mikey G and Maria did) is the giving of oneself completely over to another where you become one, and it creates a timeless connection that no matter what happens will always be there. Hope that makes sense - but that is how I look at this show and the physical relationships. And in some ways I consider M&L to have already "made love" - just not the physical way that you and me all think of it.

Okay - any speculations on the cast photo for this season??? I have my thoughts. Remember - speculate, don't "spoil"!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Here's something that I vaguely recall was mentioned before, but I'm not sure, so here it is again. From a glossary of archaic chemical terminology:

"Seven planets, seven metals:
"In astrological and alchemical thought, the seven heavenly bodies known to the ancients were associated with seven metals also known in antiquity. The associations were:

Sun (Sol) gold (aurum)
Mercury mercury (quicksilver, hydrargyrum)
Venus copper (cuprum)
Moon (Luna) silver (argentum)
Mars iron (ferrum)
Jupiter tin (stannum)
Saturn lead (plumbum)"

So copper could be another Venus reference. Has this been used in the show? One story was set in the town of Copper Summit. Some of the ornaments on Liz that we were trying to interpret earlier, like the big stagecoach emblem on a necklace-- was that copper?

What do you all make of this teaser?
From the "Romeo" promo on the Images of Roswell site: quote:Liz: Romeo & Juliet came from 2 different worlds.
Max & I have them beat--we come from different planets.
Why do I feel like he's more human than anyone I've ever met?

shapeshifter: Take a deep breath. You've been through a lot! Anyway, I like the Romeo promo. Last season they took the "Star Crossed Lovers" theme and put it through a meat grinder. Now I guess they're trying to resurrect it like the phoenix. Well, I'm game. I'll take creme brule over hamburger any time...

And since this is a Liz thread here is a picture of her:

I mean Liz showed she takes risks in going after the killer. Michael has always been a rebel. Isabel used to ba about image and is more conservative. Then there is the new guy, a lawyer from what i know.

Who knows, maybe this theory is wrong....

I mean Liz showed she takes risks in going after the killer. Michael has always been a rebel. Isabel used to ba about image and is more conservative. Then there is the new guy, a lawyer from what i know.

Who knows, maybe this theory is wrong....

Yes because I think that everybody takes risks, but yet, I don't really think of Kyle as a rebel, nor do I think of Max and Maria being conservative, maybe Max is in that group because he's cautious?

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Same with the Teen People shoot, we again MD was out in front, and she got plenty of screentime, and JB,

Now JB is hidden, who of cousre is literally smaller in size this season as well, will he become a doormat lead this year???

Speaking as one thoroughly Spoiled (I want to see the pie coming, so I can duck), I can say that this organization does not make sense from any of your catagorizations; or at least two others. <sigh>

How is ESQ2B, anyway?

How is ESQ2B, anyway?

I too have fallen off the SSS bandwagon and am spoiled, so I agree with you in one sense, but I think I would agree with the statement even if I weren't spoiled. Makes no sense, except to make sure all the couples are separated. The thing that bugs me the most (besides the height thing, I need symmetry!!!) is the space between the two groups. MAKES NO SENSE!

...
My 2 cents worth and more: Those on the right are more "of this earth" except, Maria, right? Maybe Maria's father will be revealed to be "not of this earth" (or, at least, not entirely) this season? Vihmakass suggested earlier on this thread that Liz really is more important to the alien mythology than we have heretofore imagined. Maybe Maria is too?

Reading through the thread, I was wishing we had LSS to point out the logical fallicies in our theories since it seems all of us here have imaginations that 'boldly dare to go where no' TV writer 'has dared to go before.'

Hey shapeshifter!
Do you have your own computer up yet? E-mail?

On the right, we have one alien, two "changed", and a "normal human". On the left we have two aliens, and two humans. I'd say, as long as there's an odd number of aliens, it's about as evenly balanced as could be.

As far as Maria's father being alien, FBI, or some such: goodness, I hope not. It's too obvious; like bringing Tess (and Max's baby) back as an evil alien; just like Seska (and Chachote's baby) on "Voyager". Darn. They seem to alternate between random story ideas, and hackneyed ones. Blech.

Edited because I can't tell left from right.

Here's a close up pic of our lovely Liz waring a Native American necklace. Let's hope this leads us back to GC and Riverdog.

Evid

now look at the similarities of the round lights behind liz

the v shape constellation being to form

On the right, we have one alien, two "changed", and a "normal human". On the left we have two aliens, and two humans. I'd say, as long as there's an odd number of aliens, it's about as evenly balanced as could be...Thanks, Reg, for pointing out that I have reverted back to assuming y'all can read my mind. Where's GraceKel anyway? She usually gives me that polite reminder when I start slipping.
So then, yes, I am back online at home and still have the same email etc. for now, even though I'm physically 2,000 miles further away from Covina.

About my reference to the folks on the right being more 'of this world,' I was thinking that:

Liz is human (not an !)
Kyle too (yeah, maybe he's 'changed,' but not an and at the end of CYN he was on the B team)
Valenti is definitely human (though admittedly he should be made an honorary for all his sacrifices)
Michael (who at the end of Season 2 declared his commitment to Earth)

Then, on the left there's:

Max, King of the allegedly with his son/interests on another planet
Isabel (who declared that Max is her 'home)
New Guy (presumed connection by moi--yeah, I'm stretching it, like I said above, we really need LSS to point out plotholes in our theories, but at least we have you, Reggie)
Maria (maybe pregnant with an and of uncertain parentage)

Okay, now that I've looked it over, I think I am wrong, that they tried to make both halves even--maybe New Guy is totally human. Reggie, No hints!!!

I give up. Can't figure why they'd split the group unless the pic was supposed to be used with some logo in the middle or something.

Interesting how much that necklace looks like Amy Deluca's ring hmmmm?

Poor Max looks totally lost back there in that promo--I hope we are not going to have wallpaper Max this season LOL!!!!

I will have to think about it for awhile if there are any clues to the split in groups.

New Guy (presumed connection by moi--yeah, I'm stretching it, like I said above, we really need LSS to point out plotholes in our theories, but at least we have you, Reggie)
Maria (maybe pregnant with an and of uncertain parentage)

Okay, now that I've looked it over, I think I am wrong, that they tried to make both halves even--maybe New Guy is totally human. Reggie, No hints!!!

No, of course not. Why should I "spoil" your fun? Enjoy!

OK, who thought up the Maria pregnancy? Golly... as bummed as Michael was over Max's by-blow, and seeing as how he laid things out for Maria, I would expect that he'd take the necessary precautions! In fact, I think they should all be a bit more wary of the consequences, after that "revoltin' development".

New Guy: Umm. "I don't know"; is that vague enough for everyone?

And of course I'll point out when you're slipping! Provided my memory still works.

Oh, and whose idea was the Maria pregnancy? DUH! Wasn't Michael freaked out enough about Tess? Isn't S2 Michael smart enough to "be prepared", given such a blunt reminder? They should all be a little skittish, now.

Well, let's try this: The aliens are in the middle of things, and Isabel, siding with her brother, is a mediator between Max and Michael. On the right, are people who have been "changed" due to the aliens: Liz and Kyle, with Liz closer to the Aliens; and Jim, whose life has been repetedly upset by those pesky Aliens in alien-related ways.

On our left are people, who have not been announced as being affected by aliens as such. True, Maria has had a (ahem) Change due to sleeping with Michael, but that's strictly a boy/girl thing; his being an alien or not was irrelevant to the change. NewGuy is over by Maria, make of that what you will.

Related Note:
I am so bummed that, in my Departure, Part 2, no one noticed that I had Liz say The Line. I thought sure the sharp-eyed RBIers would be all over that!

(the guy in the suit used to be blond...)
(Someone shoot me now.)

About the picture -- maybe the main organizing principle is that the people with the darkest clothes are set off by others wearing something lighter? (Except that Michael and Liz both have dark jeans that are indistinguishable on my monitor.)

Do you mean "It was me."? I noticed that.

It's quite a contrast from the V-formation photos taken in the conclusions of both our previous seasons with Max front and center. I'm assuming the contrast is deliberate. "We're a new network and see how fresh things will be..." Frankly I didn't recognize Max at first, and thought there was a new female addition to the show. That's a little scary. -HH

BTW & just slightly OT: I watched most of the old classic I Married a Monster From Outer Space the other day; They had a sort of cross between the emissary possession and the clone effect. It was produced by Paramont Studios in 1958. The husband became quite agressive when he was under the influence of the aliens--a lot like both the Collective Consciousness of the books and the MW of Tess.
I still think the CC of the books was more sophisticated--I hope Melinda Metz will come up with something new but equally good in Season 3.

(sob...) no. It's "The Line".

Liz: She did. Either way, we have to get rid of her.

You guys aren't obsessing enough...
or is it me?

SS - interesting about the 1958 classic. I'd prefer that kind of influence over the networks, rather than the power of the Nielsons!

One more observation regarding the cast photo. The mystery man on the left appears to have filled in the shoes many of us have been HOPING Max would fill; he's very tall-dark-handsome, and looks confident, in control and successful. In the photo, Max is no longer ANY those things. He is dwarfed between this powerful newcomer and Isabel. In addition to looking a little feminine, at least as portrayed here, he looks small, young, and "untogether."

Will he be caught between those two tall influential people? Will the dark man be the mentor we've all been hoping for? OR will he be a formidable foe Max will have to rise to face and get his rightful prominant position back?! I'm unspoiled, but that's what I see.

I'm sorry Amy Deluca isn't part of the group, and Sci-Fi Mom would be disappointed by Sean's absence.

Thats pretty neat observation I like you have no clue if it was intentional but it is pretty neat . I would have never thought about paying attention to the body language but so true .

quote:Originally posted by elenac:
I'm one of the most Catholics and I'm not waiting for a second coming of Jesus.
The only thing "we" Catholics are expecting is "The Last Judgment" which is supposed to happen only at the end of the world.

Hey . No ofcourse you're not waiting for his second coming cause that supposedly already happened but you are "if you're Catholic" waiting for a third. I actually heard the funniest joke about this today I was gonna post it here but its too long (no its not mocking anything/one just saying no one wanted to have to come back here ) . I actually have a lot of people who are avid members of the Catholic church school me about this.

Just in case... I decided to post that part of the Bible just like its written in the new version cause I don't wanna get plagued . Basically its verse 20, from the last chapter of Revelations 22, according to the end of the New Testament of the Bible sorry to post it all.. go ahead and skim it I'm not cutting any words out .

Revelation 22

1
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
2
down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
3
No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.
4
They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
5
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
6
The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."
7
"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
8
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.
9
But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
10
Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.
11
Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."
12
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done
13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
15
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
17
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20
He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21
The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

15
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood

If look at this through Roswell -

Outside are the evil aliens, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood
-----------------
once again sry. if ....

New guy & Isabel: Both dressed in more formal attire as opposed to everyone else. Statuesque, mature... setting them apart from everyone else. Isabel was also one of the only ones in the cast of characters (minus Kyle) that wasn't romantically linked to anyone by DEP. The "new guy" is also the right height.

Max & Liz: Both bedecked in black from head to toe. Liz looks like she's wearing a native american sort of necklace (return of Grandma Claudia references? Perhaps... but more than likely not). Liz (and dare I say Max too? Should we start calling him Max Factor? Backstreet's back, alright) is wearing more make-up, a bit more on the wild side. If y'all have seen the new promo, y'all know what I'm talking about. Black... most closely associated with death, gloom & doom. However, possibly in contrast to last season.... white (as in the Robert Frost poem) - the snow (ARCC, BIY), all were representations of darkness and death (to come or tragedy/turmoil they were already enveloped in). Perhaps BLACK in s3 will represent rebirth? We can only hope (but that M&L aren't reborn into something worse than where they were left off ... I don't have the highest hopes... Dreamer & S3= extremely cautious optimism).

Michael, Maria, Kyle and Jim: All in casual attire. No great changes in any of these four. Perhaps that's what we'll expect of them in S3? No great change to any of these characters? Seemingly (just looking at the dress, hair, make-up...motife in general) different than the other characters mentioned.

Also they're positioning...

Max and Isabel: FAMILY (Isabel's/KH's new hair also makes M & I LOOK the parts of siblings... all the better imho)

Jim and Kyle: FAMILY

Sean is absent from this pic (who knows if he'll return... simply based on his absense from all of the promotional materials), Amy is also missing. Sean = Maria's cousin, Amy = Maria's mother. BUT... New Guy is standing right next to Maria? Possible hint here? New Guy is a possible relation to Maria?

Michael & Liz: This myther would be quite excited if it were somehow discovered Michael and Liz were related in some aspect (whether that be alien or human, doesn't matter). I'd love to see Michael be all brotherly and protective towards Liz. His stance almost seems as if he is in a "protective" sort of position in concerns to L... said also separating him from his hybrid brethren. Interesting (or not, they could have stuck BF there because his height is a big contrast with SA's, who really knows).

Kyle & Liz: I believe someone has mentioned this already, but besides Michael, it also seems as if Kyle is in a "protective" stance next to Liz. Also (hopefully! And no more) a "brotherly" sort of thing? I'm not sure if they could pull off Liz being related somehow to both... but if they *wanted to* I'm sure they could do it. We still don't know anything about Kyle's mother do we? Nor do we know anything about Maria's father.

Of course... I could just be talking out of my a$$ right now. Speculating about what the characters are wearing is rather futile in and of itself... they merely all could have been pulled aside from filming a *particular episode* (hence particular attire to fit the ep) that day with what their characters were wearing. The stances could mean nothing either. Like I said, who knows.

Melodious

[rest of post edited for spoilers]

The liars are on the left and the just are on the right.

Liz is queen of the truth.

Angal, Melodious didn't mean it as "Who knows...?" in the sense of 'Who among lurkers might know...?' but rather, as a figure of speech 'who knows?' meaning nobody really knows yet because anything could still happen. It's easy to misunderstand things like that when dealing with chat, message boards, email listservs, etc.
Just to clarify, in Zero's intro to this thread, she includes: "...But remember – NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome! ..." and then Moderator Moonfire states in the Roswell Posting Guidelines thread: as a general rule of thumb, spoilers are not permitted on either Roswell forum. To discuss spoilers, please visit the
Spoilers Forum.
Also, at times (especially right before the end of a hiatus or season) spoilers seem to start leaking, and then the Mods sometimes will shut down spoiler-ridden threads, which is another reason why we on this thread are a little paranoid.
And finally, to quote the now-totally-spoiled Reggie: This is your brain on spoilers:

So, back to some of the photo specs: According to my axiom of "if 2 or more unspoiled posters come up with the same idea independently, it just possibly could hold water" (which I derived from the words of Jesus about 'if 2 or more are gathered together in my name, I am there among them' --hope nobody finds this offensive, not intended as such) I then expect that Kyle and Michael will play roles that protect Liz in the beginning of the Season.
Max sure looks like he's in the background...behind the tree, even.

And nermal, I'm not sure I follow your liars reasoning. I'm thinking about Liz living the EOTW lie for most of last season. And what about Maria? I trust you have something deeper that you're thinking here. Please elaborate.

Sorry, all that Bible quoting made me think of the righteous sitting at God's right hand.

And Liz is the discoverer of truth and those who stand with her may stand for the truth, also. It's easy to see the Valenti boys standing with her. And Michael made a surprising turn around to decide to stay on Earth for love. He would make a good defender of truth, too.

Max's life seems to be entrenched by lies and deceit due to Tess and the supposed baby and who knows, maybe lies surround Isabel and the new guy, too? Isabel has been deeply hurt by losing Grant and then Alex. She is vulnerable to lies.

I don't know about Maria. It worries me she is on the left and away from Liz and Michael.

Probably the pic means nothing, but it's more fun to find deeper meaning in everything.

Melodious, about black, I've always thought the Roswell people used it to symbolize royalty. Max, Liz and Iz wear it the most. -HH

Just for reference -- anything that hasn't aired on TV in the US is a spoiler.

Carry on. Liz. Gotta love Liz.

Okay, I should be unpacking, but I've been dwelling on some Season 1 RBI stuff that will probably never come up in Season 3, but here it is:

I think the Mindwarp thing is bigger than we have understood.
In BD, we have (with bold added by moi for emphasis): quote:MICHAEL: That means something, Isabel. It's right here on the map. Look. This is the constellation I saw in my dream. It's Aries, the ram.
(Isabel gives Michael a questioning look)
MICHAEL: I looked it up. And this is the symbol Nasedo left us at the cave. If you take a map of Roswell and you position it properly when Aries is directly overhead, which is in April by the way, all the rest of these symbols take on locations. And this one's right here at the library.
ISABEL: How'd you know how to do all that, Michael?
MICHAEL: I just knew.
Then in SH there's:
quote:(Max touches the glowing hickey and sees a rush of images of military personnel rushing towards something that is beeping)
LIZ: This is getting really weird, Max.
(Back at Michael's apartment, Isabel and Michael are discussing how these images could be created)
ISABEL: That would mean each of us has this information in some part of us we're just not not conscious of.
MICHAEL: Or she's getting messages from somewhere or someone else.
ISABEL: Nasedo?
I'm assuming the transcriber was mistaken when he/she typed "...Max touches the glowing hickey and sees a rush of images of military personnel rushing towards something that is beeping)..." because it's clear (to me) from Liz's next line and then Michael's line that Liz sees the images, not Max.

Admittedly, then Michael then goes on to say:
quote:MICHAEL: I don't know. I mean, why did she see the crash, the soldiers? Maybe it was all planned this way...that this is how we'd find out who we really are...by connecting with humans.
ISABEL: Connecting?
MICHAEL: The more they connect, the more we find out.So this could negate the idea that Nasedo is planting images in Liz's mind when she and Max connect.

But then Tess arives with a box full of pictures of Max, and Max has images of Tex.

Also, back at the end of BD, if anyone (Reggie?) has a screencap of the guy in the coat walking away from the fire, I am at least 75% sure that if I adjusted the brightness and contrast in Photoshop, we would see Doug "Dog Boy" Sh[a]llow's silhouette--which could mean the M2M wasn't the first time Nasedo kissed Liz, or it could mean they purposely darkened the lighting because they hadn't hired anyone to play Nasedo yet.

But if Dog Boy was Nasedo, it could mean lead us back to the importance of Liz to the alien mythology.

Okay, back to work.

P.S.:
At http://www.crashdown.com/episodes/ they have the titles for the first 4 eps.

I've been gone all weekend, and was concerned I hadn't warned Shapeshifter to be ready to set up a new thread. Glad it move slowly. I'm behind on my reading, but Shapeshifter - I did read your season 1 obs - and I agree - IF the writers wanted to the whole mindwarp/mind control thing could be made huge - and there are plenty of past "clues" to its existance. I still think Tic Tac exists - always will! Is a separate alien from Harding. May be the true Nasedo, and may have been the alien giving Liz the visions in SH - thus, drawing Max and Liz together even tighter!!

Okay - kids need me! So - I'm off, and will catch up later!! Hope all had a great Labor Day Weekend!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

I still believe that Liz's reference to learning something really deep from the LEAST DEEP guy in America was a clue----LEAST DEEP means SHALLOW---and drunken Max referred to him as Mr Shallow in Blind Date---Kyle corrected him and called him Shellow. Doug Shellow--Sean Deluca-possibly the same????? And note the "59" on Seans jersey in the last episode of Departure. Who was around in 1959?

Notice what it says: Some of the most beautiful people in the world aren’t even human.
Hmmmmmm.

An interesting theory though.

I do agree it would be interesting to have Sean somehow involved as an alien. I mean on OTM the gun coming from Brody's hand did seem to move further out of reach as if propelled and Sean was in the area.

GraceKel - you're funny how you pop in an out! I've been here so I've read your "Shallow" theory. I agree it's interesting, but you may remember I personally prefer to think of Sean as human. But I've never heard the theory about the Nacedo who burned the photo resembling Doug before. That's why I was wondering where SS was going with that. -HH

-HH

I agree that it "beautiful" shouldn't just mean what your physical features look like. I was just referring to the fact that they are talking about aliens and Liz is pictured!

Liz: She did. Either way, [b]we have to get rid of her.

You guys aren't obsessing enough...
or is it me?

[/B]

Reggie, I didn't read your fic, but I thought you were going to say (now don't shoot me) Liz: "What do we do now Max."

<snicker> For those that didn't get it, "We've got to get rid of her." was heard in the background of The Pilot, just before Liz was shot. It was one of the shooters saying it; it was not in the "unaired" version of The Pilot. We obsessed over that for a dozen threads or more, and Shapeshifter has an article on her website. Ah, good times...

And if you read Departure, Part 2, you'll see that when Liz says it, it's true. They had no choice (at that point).

[OT] This week's NOVA, on PBS, is about time travel. It's good. (Steven Hawking tells a joke!) Since we've discussed time travel, I thought you-all'd be interested. It may re-air through the week; check local listings...[/OT]

GraceKel & haniczka,
What do we think of having Sean show up in Season 3 "newly released" from juvie with no memory of having been in Roswell last Season because it was really Nasedo? Since Nasedo did a deal with Kvar, his death could have been faked!!
Then, if Doug Sh[a]llow was also Nasedo, that would be three different incarnations of a shapeshifter that kissed Liz!

Notice what it says: Some of the most beautiful people in the world aren’t even human.
Hmmmmmm.

Liz.................... Alien
what she doing with the 3 podsters
interesting mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

So yes Shapeshifter, I think its certainly a plausible theory, yes indeedy!!!

I've already been asked about this, what do I think of the photo??

Well, the operative word is "some". Liz is put in the picture as the measure stick for beauty.

And if you haven't heard, optimism landed on me over labor day weekend. If only I could get it off me. I ain't used to it.

The one missing element to this is Alex. He in my opinion was also a very important part to this equation. Maybe that's where Jesse will come into to play.

Now, hopefully, in Season Three, good vs. evil, per se - Liz and Max, M&M, I&J (still hoping for Alex return) vs. alien/human bad guys.

But the bottom line, Liz and Max, moreover, Liz Parker.

Style

I've already been asked about this, what do I think of the photo??

Well, the operative word is "some". Liz is put in the picture as the measure stick for beauty.

And if you haven't heard, optimism landed on me over labor day weekend. If only I could get it off me. I ain't used to it.

Out of all of the Liz Mythers, I was waiting for what you would say to this! I was on the edge of my seat waiting for your response. Thanks for obliging!

shapeshifter - well, last spring, I was so sure Sean was 100% human, but now he's getting foggy in my brain. The thought of him showing up this season with no memory of recent events is a little chilling - in a neat kind of way...not in the ice cream on the face kind of way though.

Qfanny - optimism over Labor Day? UnSPOILED optimism???

Oh, and along those lines, Alexis, I have to admit I never even THOUGHT that the photo was suggesting that Liz is an alien because she's not. She's important! She's beautiful (in all senses of the word!) and she's prominant; Yhea! -HH

As for the group photo; please, please have some hidden meaning for pete's sake. Otherwise it is clearly the most unflattering photo of the Roswell cast I ever seen. I would hate to think that someone took the time to snap that picture just as a cast photo. IMO, of course.

And about the "some" of the beautiful people being alien poster, ITA w/Qfanny (of course? ) that the key word is "some" which is not "all."
Remember: Liz is not an !

As for Liz's status-human or alien ties, I will just say what I have always said, whatever offers the most compelling story is what I would like to see, that is all I have ever wanted is a thought provoking, compelling story without too many CHADS LOL!!!!

Yep!

Qfanny - optimism over Labor Day? UnSPOILED optimism???

Not spoilers - just got some much needed sleep.

GraceKel - You are not the only one that thought of me (Qfanny) regarding that publicity statement. I had a lot of email in my box!

But the publicity statement says, "not even human." There's nothing about her being the word alien in it. Had they said, "Some of the most beautiful people are aliens." I would have hit the roof as you suggest. I didn't even like it when they "altered/enhanced" her in Max in the City. But overall, it's so nice to see Liz back in front. Hopefully, that's a good sign to come.

ITA!! Of course, my favorite theory has always been the "ancient civilization" combined with the prophecized savior connection, that keeps Liz "human" as well as connects her to the Aliens.

My first reaction to the Seventeen Ad was - are we looking at the original Podsters? - but than I thought about Qfanny!

I have to agree with the comment that if there ISN'T a hidden meaning in the positioning of the cast picture, they should definitely fire the photographer! It is not the most flattering cast picture - especially for Max and Maria.

Shapeshifter - I will be sending you the new Table of Contents for Thread #52 in case I'm not around when we get to the next Thread.

See ya all!!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

And if you haven't heard, optimism landed on me over labor day weekend. If only I could get it off me. I ain't used to it.

Liz is not an

Well, good for you. Enjoy!
BTW, how about sharing it with the rest of us? I sure could use some!

haniczka: Yes, UNspoiled. I know our Qfanny!

And may I remind everyone of my great S2 thesis, about the Dis-Tress-ed Liz: When her hair is combed down smooth, she's in good shape mentally. When it's fluffed up (as from EOTW to HOM), she's in dis-tress. But once she got on the trail of "Alex's murderer", her hair went flat & smooth again: she was "firing on all 8 cylinders", as it were.

Note her hair in this picture.

Right now I'm just trying to wrap my mind around my new job before Season 3 starts so I can thoroughly enjoy it! But if nothing else, I'll at least post some stream-of-consciousness-style text at some point.

I really enjoyed the photos from the party. How lucky you folks are to have an experience like that. -HH

The one on our left is Zero; on the right is StephStephSteph. I have better photos I could post, from the "Covina Collection".

Once I get my pictures off to ESQ2B for posting - I'm sorry and swamped - a bad combination - I will let you all know.

Reggie - I get a kick out of the "hair" theories. Remember our "big Bang" theory re: Max's bangs during the Stepford Max Chronicles?? Someone - can't remember who - actually rewatched all the episodes to see if it held up (which it really didn't, but it was fun anyway!!).

Guess they have been playing a lot of previews on UPN. I rarely watch that channel - though that is about to change - so, if you have missed them go to:
http://www.vidiot.com/Roswell/promo3.html

and you can download and chat about them. (Reminder - Once previews are "AIRED" - they are free game for discussion, but if you are spoiled and know what they mean - PLEASE DON'T Tell us! Thanks!! )

There are some VERY interesting ones recently!!

BTW - Mel - if you are out there - I've been catching up on Farscape this summer, after getting hooked on it in June - and it is so fun and well done!! The first season episodes have been running each night beginning last week - so it is really starting to make sense now!

OH - and WELCOME all newbies and lurkers!! We know you are out there!

See you all later!!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Well, actually I knew that. I was taking advantage of this opportunity to kiss up to our fearless leader. I'd love to see all photos. Then I could print a few, paste a photo of myself in the middle of the crowd and pretend that I was there! -HH

PS GraceKel, I'm so happy to know what LOL means!!!

and you can download and chat about them. (Reminder - Once previews are "AIRED" - they are free game for discussion, but if you are spoiled and know what they mean - PLEASE DON'T Tell us! Thanks!! )Well put!
From the "teaser" promo:

Always love a compliment!! Even if I do look a bit odd in the picture! Thanks Haniczka!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!
FAN!

Those are great pics. I really love the one with those two lovely blonds.

I was thinking how sad it's going to be next season with out any Liz and Alex interaction. I really loved watching these two together.
Their just seemed to be a real friendship between both actors. Well don't believe me this pic says it all.

Evid

Yes, indeed; and their characters, too. Hey, maybe (since Isabel's been haunted by "Alex's ghost") he can drop in on Liz sometimes? OK, just a thought...

I've been out of the loop for a while. Enjoying summer and now getting settled with the beginning of the school year.

I'm eagerly awaiting Season 3. Don't know if I'll have time to catch up on Threads 50 & 51. Only a few more weeks to go . . .!

Okay, here's the link to the "Busted" promos: http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/roswellbuffy/Episodes_Season_Three.html
Caution: SH revisited portions.

And of course, Behr in mind that in the past, WB's promos have been highly missleading. We shall see if UPN's are more acurate after Oct. 9.
One month away!

Oh, golly, I hope so. The (official) video of Liz doing a striptease, outdoors, for an undressing Max, makes me sick... and I was already spoiled. Miss Appleby is a very attractive young woman, and I'm a guy who is attracted to women, so I'd know! But our "Liz", doing that?!?

And so many over there are "all fired up".

------
When I sent Tabasco, it wasn't soft-core porn!

That floating business after Hot Alien Sex is really weird, and does sound like OBE. Liz can astral project. Is the experience of Tess and Max after Tex a necessity for impregnation? And if so why? Is that why Liz was altered? So she can be impregnated by Max?

I think we need to know more about Michael and Maria's in Departure, but I got the distinct impression that Michael and Maria did not have hot alien sex as Max and Tess did.

It will be interesting to find out this season.

BTW, I have not seen the promo. Just screencaps. I don't get UPN.

Okay, the new thread is at: http://bbs2.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/009976.html

Mods can close this one.