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| Topic Subject: Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology - Thread #55 |
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Posted 11-24-2001 10:54 PM by shapeshifter
Below is Zero's Intro. Thread 54 (believe it or not) is now here. quote: |
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Posted 11-25-2001 09:19 AM by DreamerAtHeart
Just popping in real quick. TV Guide Online has a pretty nice site for Roswell. It includes a good episode guide with brief summaries. You can get there from here. Later! |
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Posted 11-25-2001 10:36 AM by plumeria
Now that you've started a nice, sparkling new thread, I just wanted to take a moment to clarify my post at the end of the last one. Some of you seem to have interpreted my query as a threat to this thread's existence, which was not my intention at all. I just noticed that there was a lot of non-Liz discussion, and was proposing a possible change in title to reflect that focus shift. However, it is absolutely fine by me to keep it Liz-centric. Just make sure to keep pointing out how "all things come back to Liz" in your discussions, and everything will be spiffy. Enjoy your new thread! |
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Posted 11-25-2001 01:39 PM by elenac
Reggie[quote]How lonely is she going to be, married to someone who doesn't know her except in the Biblical sense? (Even then, there's something odd!) So much will have to be hidden from Jesse, that it will warp their relationship to the point of making Isabel more lonely than less. Not to mention hiding Max and his secrets from the Fathers' investigation. No peace for Isabel.[quote] I can only say that I agree and that Michael warned her. Maybe if both M/Mi had denied her less in the past, she could've lissened more to their suggestions but I doubt it. ============================= So, the last time Liz had flashes from Max was in TEOTW …. and then, the kissed her again in Departure but he gave flashes to Tess. So cruel!!! unless …. and then, Zan died in MTD …. and then, in Busted we saw again white roses, Max that impressed Liz with lighting the dock …. and then, he said that alien line about the child and Tess and then he went all sweet …. and then, I was wondering if HE would accept only half of an essence and wouldn’t expect to re-unite it first…. and then, why did I have that feeling that maybe it wasn’t Max but somebody acting like “what would Max do now” with so little imagination and messing things around … and then, Alexis I’m so curious to know what in the books made you turn your eyes to heaven, I’d love to know it either here or if you can connect any of them to the series, over at Compare and Contrast thread ….. and then, maybe Max is unable to give Liz flashes and he’ll ask for her help in the dream plane, disguised as a tree (see the books)…. and then, our Max has to take charge again and re-organize himself and cope with his good and bad side and desperately needs Liz’s help to do this…. and then, maybe Liz unconsciously knows this all along and she’s standing by him against evidence… and then, maybe this is all about “just love” and since he is my favourite Martian this way he deserves Liz. Unless .... [ 11-25-2001: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 11-25-2001 03:45 PM by Nemo
Possible background symbolism: the open-and-shut door latch behind Isabel, conspicuous around the time she lets M/M out of the hotel room. The latch is open during the sequence when Isabel imagines "opening up" to Jesse about her alien side, but closed when we return to reality. |
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Posted 11-25-2001 05:37 PM by mezz
OK just a question that perhaps you have asked before. I just watched HTOHL again and Laurie says that her grandpa smoked 'Indian River Pipe Tabacco' is that Indian as in Red Indian or Indian as in next to Pakistan Indian? Does anyone know? |
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Posted 11-25-2001 07:16 PM by shapeshifter
mezz-- First, from Bartleby.com (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000): quote:Then, from Websters Ninth New Collegiate: quote:And then again from Bartleby.com: quote: They could have tied in Michael's original (from whom he was cloned) with River Dog and Grandma Claudia's research, resulting in a Liz connection. There is probably a fanfic that does. |
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Posted 11-25-2001 08:04 PM by mezz
Thanks |
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Posted 11-25-2001 10:20 PM by Nemo
And there really is a brand of pipe tobacco called Indian River. http://www.pipeandcigar.com/abouttobacco.html (Named after the region in Florida pointed out by shapeshifter? Indian River is also a brand name for citrus crops, of which that region is proud. In 1925 they also renamed their county Indian River.) http://indian-river.fl.us/citrus/ |
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Posted 11-25-2001 11:28 PM by Qfanny
Hey everybody! Do you feel that Max would save Liz if she were to be shot again in public??? I don't think that Max would anymore, and I guess that is why I am not enjoying this season as much as the previous two. Liz is so important. She is the Alpha and the Omega! Cal even seems to think that Max's humanity is more important than anything else. As Max said, Liz makes him human. So am I nuts?? |
Posted 11-26-2001 12:44 AM by healersbabe
quote: NO, you're absolutely NOT crazy!! I think that you or someone had said their daughter was watching the pilot and noticed that Liz was probably meant to be shot. I think that there are probably many reasons for this being true. Firstly, I believe that the reason the aliens s where sent to earth in the first place, especially after us knowing Zan had been sucha gawd aweful ruler was simply for one reason: TO FIND TRUE GRANOLITH/LIZ. I think that back on Antar their family had this important legacy because they knew where the granolith was. I think that maybe their mother in one last final attempt to save their planet sent her son to earth knowing they being soulmates and all would find each other. I think the super granolith's key is her. I think someone needed her or wanted her and in the first timeline they knew if they tacked Max for long enough he would eventually lead them to it. I think it wasn't Max they where after, I think they knew where he was all along...Topolsky, possible FTess, was also looking for the granolith everyone wanted. They tried to kill Liz thinking she was getting in the way of them finding it wihtout knowing she was it. Now they found her, ends up maybe all alone Kivar just didn't want Zan as a ruler because he was so incredibly a horrid ruler, understandble (why he is so with genes liek Isabel's and their mother probably the girls where the only ones who truly kick ass) and maybe he won't have a problem with Liz after their heritage (Zan's etc.) is no longer of importance to them. Liz is going to in turn show up being his protector when now that he and his people are no longer of value to him, with Kivar having the granolith....her, then he would no longer have need for Max but, Him, being Liz's balance, is going to in fact ironies of ironies safe his life. Max is no longer of importance, they already have what they had been looking for all along. Hopefully, Liz and Kivar will find a way to end the wars back on their home planet when she agrees to help them for the purpose of peace. Now Liz being alive is the only thing keeping Max so. I also think maybe Zan wanted the baby thinking that was his ticket back home to his throne. Only truly showing how horrible he was,... I think Tess may have figured this out to that she did in fact have it all wrong. What Kivar needed was the very thing she thought of least value-Liz. [ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: healersbabe ] |
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Posted 11-26-2001 10:08 AM by Zero
Shapeshifter - Thanks for starting the Thread!! Qfanny - great to see you! AND you raise a very interesting question!! I'm not sure that current Max, with the devolution of his character would save Liz if she got shot. Which is a very depressing thought - but then maybe Kyle would be able to save her now? (if the "changes" comment is ever dealt with again!) Healersbabe - very interesting analysis. I have always thought - if the writers wanted to go this route - that making Liz the "true" keeper of a secret (i.e., the Granolith) would be soooooo interesting, and could tie in all the Season 1 Grandma Claudia, Ancient Civilizations and Indian connections! Not THAT would be an interesting storyline!! Plus, I would love to see a truly evil Khivar that goes head to head with a truly amazing Liz! Zero |
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Posted 11-26-2001 10:34 AM by starlove
Liz .. granolith .. now that's interesting =) I was always figuring that since Tess now had the granolith she'd give it to Khivar and everyone was screwed, but i like that concept .. gives me a sense of hope, hehe. |
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Posted 11-26-2001 11:45 AM by Alexis
Shapeshifter—thanks for mentioning the cut scenes from RATDG! I was going to do it, but life happened! PS I agree it is always Liz that prevents Max from being harmed by aliens or objects created by aliens (spaceship) and Liz is always “calling” Max. Her new change/powers has to do with communication! Or maybe when Liz Astral Projected to NYC she brought back a subway ticket stub? Too funny! I don’t like the father as bad guys, either! Just thought I would mention it, not really Liz related, so I’ll go back to that. One thought I had about telling a false story to the parents about Max’s behavior (which seems like Iz is going to do this week) would be to tell them that Tess was pregnant and she ran away and that she ran away and Max has been trying to find her and his child. This would explain why Tess is gone and would explain some of Max’s behavior. It doesn’t, however, explain why Liz would help him do this. I doubt the parents would believe she would help him find his child (although some of what the writers put in there explains it, they couldn’t possibly have the parents saying “Oh, so your ex-girlfriend is helping you find your love child. Yeah, that makes sense.”) It also doesn’t explain the robbery unless they said they continue that they were falsely accused. In either case, Liz’s involvement with everything is key and that is why she is listed as a “Conspirator” on Phil Evans board. Tess’ disappearance is secondary almost (Liz is mentioned first, after all). Zero—I agree with your (?) post or the one that you quoted, I think the writers come up with the scripts in a vacuum. I can see your disappointment and you bring up a lot of valid points. I think those new viewers that do see the Pilot and EOTW will be quite confused! elenac—okay, it’s been a while since I’ve been on, so are you talking about the Roswell books? There are definitely things that I thought were cheesy and you could see Metz has definitely developed her writing to exclude the supreme cheese (at least in her books, anyway). For starters, I thought the Dupris character was laughable. Specify if you want more and provide a link to that thread and maybe I’ll join in. I don’t want to marr this thread with that discussion (I could go on and on and I read those books 2+ years ago) |
Posted 11-26-2001 08:36 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Alexis, I was thinking of the same thing, except that the parents would buy the story--after all, it's Roswell. Ooo, or maybe the story is that it's Alex's son. No, wait, that was our story. quote:Oh, I hope not. I am really hoping that the new ep after those 2 will have Liz telling Max about Future Max. quote: It's: Compare and Contrast: Analyzing the TV Show and Book Series - Version 4.0 [ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 11-26-2001 09:46 PM by Metaphysicalgrl
Well hello RBI'ers! I'm seeing a lot of familiar names on this thread! Hanging in there for the long haul I see!! Even though I've lost just about all passion mything about Roswell, I did happen to read over your posts and had some thoughts of my own regarding the dads. Regarding Max's dad. My feeling about this is that when all of that stuff happened in Utah it was kind of like his 'aha' moment. Think about it. All of a sudden out of the blue his son is arrested - when previously this was a good kid, and that exchange between him and Max in the cellar of the convenience store... I'm not surprised that he became suspicious. This man is a lawyer, and like any good lawyer he is approaching this situation as if it's a case. He's putting What I think would be amazing is if it turns out that Jeff (a lifelong Roswell resident, son of Grandma Claudia) turns out to have a much larger relationship to the alien inhabitants of Roswell. And I'm not saying let's make Liz an alien or anything (Qfanny!) like that. We have always believed that there was so much more to Grandma Claudia then met the eye, and I would like it if the 'parent' storyline grew to something much bigger. Maybe Phil's questioning of Max will bring to light that Jeff knows much more about the whole situation then he is letting on. It stands to reason that if the aliens landed in Roswell all those years ago, there could be much more to the conspiracy then we've been shown so far. Grandma Claudia was out in the woods studying the native Americans. What if she somehow helped Nasedo (or the other protector guy) right from the beginning? Additionally, you now have the other element of the movie they were filming in Roswell back in the day...unlimited storytelling possibilities there, and a chance to bring the older generation of Roswell residents into the story. There is so much here to work with, yet the writers choose to go w/the hackneyed, played out plots that will not serve to differentiate Roswell as the standout show it has the potential of being. Hey, happy couples are boring couples so let's break up Michael and Maria (again) and hardly utilize them at all, when they provide a great comedic element to the show. Instead of getting Kyle, a character the audience has come to care a great deal about, and a character who we've watched grown and change,together w/Isabelle - let's bring someone new in, give the audience no time to really care about him, and have them get married and we'll deal with the whole a human married to an alien who doesn't know storyline. Why would you do that???? Also missing from this season is the Sheriff. What a great character to work with. His metamorphis (sp?) over the course of 2 seasons has been tremendous. You have William Sadler who is an incredible actor who has great chemistry w/the cast and you relegate him to back burner, kit shicker status. Why would you do that? And let's not even get into what they have done with the Liz character and the Liz/Max storyline. I mean, to not even have dealt with the emotional payoff of EOTW when last season it was pretty much the groundwork for everything that happened???? Aaarggghh! And now there's talk about town that they might bring Tess back to complicate the M/L relationship. Why would you do that? Because it was such a huge crowd pleaser the first time???? Further more, the last episode pissed me off way beyond belief. Mainly because if Khivar has this new improved mode of space travel, the wormhole which is "Better than a ship".. what was the whole point Additionally, are we to believe that Jesse, a Harvard graduate, is so dumb that he accepts all of this weirdness without any further explanation? A Harvard graduate blindly accepts that a piece of steak Now, don't get me wrong, there is a part of me that is enjoying this season for what it is, but it really gets me pissed when they ignore their own plotlines! Continuity has never been Roswell's strong point, but they have such a great story to build on, it kills me when they go about these things haphazardly. When they undo their own storytelling with new plots that make no sense given the story arcs and canons we've already seen -- that is even worse than chads and dangling plotlines we had to suffer through for the previous two seasons. What these writers need is a clue. They need to bring in some diehard fans as consultants and have them sit in on each and every writing meeting that is held. Buffy is a great show not because the concept is so amazing (did anyone else HATE the original movie like I did?) but because Joss has a vision that he sticks to, and each and every piece of the puzzle ties back to something else and he keeps his audience engaged because they have to keep tuning back in to see what See why I haven't been posting here? It's hard to be look for clues when you know that any that you find are there entirely by accident! Much love, RBI'ers... [ 11-26-2001: Message edited by: Metaphysicalgrl ] |
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Posted 11-26-2001 10:16 PM by Mavonne
Hello everyone. Liz is the catalyst of the alien trek in Roswell. She's the one to make discoveries, to plan. But I've yet to see much recognition on the part of the Podsters about this. Even Max has been somewhat oblivious on the point. Ever since Liz walked away from him at the end of Destiny, the guy's been a wreck! He needs her. But why? Should I read all 55 Lizmyth threads to find out? |
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Posted 11-26-2001 10:23 PM by Etoiline
You guys get really deep here. I feel almost inadequate that I don't have anything mind-bending to say. But this is a great thread! It's so interesting, keep it up. I thought I knew a lot about the show but I really don't compared to you guys! Keep thinking those deep thoughts. . . luv, Etoiline |
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Posted 11-26-2001 10:46 PM by estherterrestrial
Hi RBIers! Coming out of lurkdom to see if my account still works & to let you know that I agree with all of the posts about the key personalities being topsy turvy and the need to re-establish the chemistry between Liz and Max. That was an excellent point about 3rd season Max not being as likely to save Liz if she were shot (how sad!). And Metaphysicalgal, I totally agree that the show should make better use of Valenti! Why not use the show's strengths instead of exposing its weaknesses? |
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Posted 11-26-2001 10:48 PM by elenac
Re-watching WO I realized that Kyle, in his own way, told Max that he didn’t have sex with Liz. This happens when Kyle confronts Max saying that he’ll go with Maria and Liz to check the green rod he saw outside Roswell, even if he didn’t agree. After Max gives him directions of which way to take to be safe, they have this moment where Kyle tells him: I’ll take care of her. You wouldn't reassure your rival about your woman, she is with you therefore she’s safe. One other thing I noticed is: M/Mi are on Liz’s roof and Courtney is in the bathroom with the girls, Michael is worried about Courtney and Max enquires about their relationship. Mi annoyed tells him why does he care and Max answers: You were never sleeping with the enemy before. Thanks Alexis. [ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 11-27-2001 06:52 AM by Alexis
Really quick post here... Thanks for the link Shapeshifter. elenac! |
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Posted 11-27-2001 10:19 AM by Rebecca
Delurking for roll call. I'm still watching. So far the season has been lack luster, but I think it may improve. Thank goodness there's been humor. Max and Liz are having real difficulties in their relationship, and understandably so, but I'm holding out for change, "change" being the byword for this season, and especially Liz's. And, as the current season is always potentially the final season, I hope Max resolves the dilema of his son before the lights go out. Dare I hope. |
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Posted 11-27-2001 11:10 AM by avaSpeaks
Hey all Well, I agree that ever since Liz left Max, he has been a wreck...trusting the wrong people and making bad choices and decisions...only Tess has supported him whenever he made decisions that would separate the humans further from the aliens...or caused division. Liz is Max's balance, period. But I don't think she knows this...I think that she does not realize how important she is to Max Evans, none of them do...but that's the fault of the writers... See that's why Liz Mything, although fun can become sad, because the specualtions are deeper and make mor e sense than the actual storyline being showed on TV... The writers need to show Liz's importance to Max, without Max...they need to show her changing and coming into foucs, not to tear Liz and Max apart or not to make her stronger than him. But to show that they balance eahc other...personally, the only power I would want Max to have is to heal and maybe deflection, that's it...have Liz has some kick -ass powers and have Liz be the one to confront Tess and Kivar and free Max's people. But don't leave Max out!!! Have him be the only one and the Ultimate one to help rescue and save Liz...and then let them show an eppy where Max and Liz connects and he gives her this feeling that she knows that she will never experience from another man...make him strong again... |
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Posted 11-27-2001 12:08 PM by Zero
Meta - It is wonderful to hear from you again - and I must agree with everything you said! But I keep hoping that the writers will get their act together - soon!! Also - it is wonderful to see all the familar names and a number of new ones! Zero |
Posted 11-27-2001 04:46 PM by shapeshifter
quote:No, it means sleeping with an enemy (a Skin, for instance) is dangerous because one of the 2 lovers will grow cold first, and then likely 'sell out' the other lover to the enemies--like Vilondra and Kvar. So, the "enemy" is a member of the political opposition. |
Posted 11-27-2001 07:29 PM by healersbabe
quote: Meta You're back!!!!!!!!!!!! Liz/Max relationship or lack thereof being also very dumb because the entire purprose fo EOFTW was for Tess to not leave and betray the group which apparently didn't stop her from leaving anyways so as far as that went EOTW is around the corner. ANd I do so still think s3 would never in his life lift his finger to save Liz this time around...especially since this Max doesn't even know who she really is |
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Posted 11-27-2001 09:17 PM by shapeshifter
I don't really have a problem with the All New Wormhole means of travel. After all, wasn't the Granolith about 50 years old? And with all the mixed loyalties among the colonists, I doubt Kvar would have tipped his hand to Nikko or Edsedo or anyone else as to the status of their latest techno feats. So then, when Tess took a wrong turn in the Grannylith, Kvar must have decided it was time to let the Worm out. So in tonight's ep, Liz was wrong about Maria's tatto boy missing the bus. Is this a first? Um, am I the only one who thought Billy Boy was very unattractive? So those same license plates in the window in Utah have been rearranged outside where Maria and Ick-boy were reminiscing. And of course we all noticed when M&M were talking in the back of the CD that Maria had "Suave" in her corner and there was "Secret" deoderant between them (to get rid of the bad smell/odor) and a few other pertinent signs. Anyone catch 'em? Max looks so good with his new hair. Is & Jessie would have so much more chemistry if they had more eye contact and less body contact. But I guess that's how it is when you've got a secret. Bad moves with the tapped phone and jeep lies. I guess they aren't consulting Liz? quote: [ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
Posted 11-28-2001 12:18 AM by healersbabe
quote: LIZ wrong about something ...ok I'm convinced thats not her now , less she's been hanging around Max too much now and its become contagious ... OH! I saw that news about that planet what they really said is that it has sulfur was it and they are going to check what other earth-like elements exists there??!? Did you also see the news about the moon having come from the crash of a planet that existed in the solar system and went bye-bye? They are calling the new "discovery"baised on angular momentum ...I'm like yeah well I guess we gotta lead the children by the hand into the possibility of there ebing another earth like planet in our solar system before this one . Way to go Egyptians and corn riddles coming into focus ? |
Posted 11-28-2001 06:17 AM by shapeshifter
quote:Is that even possible? Not for me! Which is whyThe Archive of these threads has it's own search engine. Also, you could just read Zero's Intro in it's entirety. |
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Posted 11-28-2001 09:55 AM by Alexis
shapeshifter—1) Liz was wrong, but I think that maybe she didn’t want Michael to overreact and 2) you are not the only one that thought Billy was unattractive! But, some people like that scruffy-musician type, I guess. Okay 3) You are right about the Is& Jesse eye contact vs. body contact. This goes for Liz and Max. One reason why I don’t really feel their connection is because they’ve had more makeout sessions than talks and understanding looks (which is more characteristic of their relationship—but of course all the characters seem to be different this year, so…) I was right in what Is would tell the parents! Good for Phil Evans that he knew that wouldn’t explain the arrest in Utah and oh, loads of other things. If only Max had asked Isabel “So, you told him about Tess?” “Yeah, he knows about the pregnancy and her leaving.” Then Is wouldn’t be on Phil’s board and she did tell him the truth. Just not the whole truth. But, like shapeshifter suspects, they aren’t consulting Liz on this one. I wonder if Phil will ask Liz about the Tess situation and how she is sticking by Max through it all. Okay, no one has mentioned this so I will! There is a whole story line waiting to happen for Liz and what she has given up for Max. She is committed, which is part of her character. When she decides something, that’s it. For the most part, but she can still struggle with it. The whole “grow” storyline will bubble up to the surface, most likely during Feb. sweeps. Let’s look at the whole question of why they are rerunning “The Pilot” and “EOTW.” As the promo said “Every love story has a beginning.” I think the writers (and UPN) want the audience to remember how Liz realized that Max was the alien for her and how Max has ALWAYS loved Liz. (which someone had mentioned would be a good time to go into her importance. I agree, but I doubt the writer’s are smart enough to go that route). Anyway, EOTW is then shown to see how sacrificial Liz has been and how Max was hurt. But as you will all remember Future Liz says in the beginning to Future Max “Max, I don’t have any regrets.” Which we all believe she wouldn’t have if their love is pure and they had cemented, etc. But now the future is changed. Max thought Liz slept with Kyle and then Max slept with Tess. :throw_up: Everything has changed a this pure love that would lead Liz to have NO regrets is no longer the case. Now, Liz has potential for regret. She’s giving up a lot for a guy who slept with another person because he was vulnerable, even though he knew that Liz was hiding something). Let’s just assume they did have Tex, which I still want to believe is not correct (writer’s please rectify this situation!!!). Here is my idea: Max had a Future cross over flash and I think it’s about time Liz had one as well. I think she should see her future self saying she had no regrets. But then this flash will warp into a dream of her seeing all that she didn’t do. She needs to resolve this issue some she can really be a leader again. She, as well as the group, needs to see her importance and then she can really step up to the plate. What do you all think? |
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Posted 11-28-2001 10:31 AM by avaSpeaks
Okay, here is my super long post...about the reasoning behind showing the next two eppys... Liz is changing, and those two eppys reflect why and how she is changing, how Max did love her, how much Tess has really screwed up their lives...despite destiny... How Future Max told Liz that the problem is that she is not letting herself change.... That's what I think! |
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Posted 11-28-2001 10:32 AM by avaSpeaks
One more post The hand squeeze: Personally, I think Max just don't know what to do anymore, and it will take something drastic for him to realize the downward turn his life is taking...however. I know some people want Max to re-concentrate on the relationship, but at the same time, if Max was to forget about his son, what would Liz think of this??? Would she trust that Max would be there for their own children if they decided to have some?? I think that Max is confused and hurting, he is in so much pain, and Liz is his salvation, however, things are just moving way to fast...but he has nothing to hold on too, hence the hand squeeze: IMAGE: www.theddd.com/bm/bm11.jpg So when she said that part, she was just letting Maria know that if that is what she is willing to give up for Mike, then go ahead...that's all. Max has given up on his dreams and his life too. I mean, when was the last time we seen Max in class, or even studying...and in "We Are Family", Max told Liz that he couldn't leave because it didn't work like that for him (and the aliens)...but Max is getting cheated too and he has so much pressure on himself and he has put pressure and burden on himself...but he nor Liz have even had time to heal...but they still try to hang on to each other... Max needs to slow down and take a look at his life, and they need to write in some storylines with Max either getting closer to Kyle or Maria because he needs an objective point of view... Someone needs to tell Max that if he keeps chasing ghosts, he going to die or either lose Liz...and then he needs to hit rock bottom, like Willow did, to get some sense in him. Let's all remember that Max probably has not healed from the incident in the White Room with the FBI...and iz started the breakdown in communication with the lie. Once you break down the communication, you have to really work hard to get it back. But something needs to desperately happen to them, or Max alone, or maybe Liz, or maybe they need to just be freinds and say that's all they are...becuase this is really pulling at the heartstrings |
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Posted 11-28-2001 02:26 PM by Mavonne
Hi everyone. (avaSpeaks, how are ya? ) shapeshifter, I liked Billy. At first I thought Mr. Scuffalupagus! But personality-wise he was genuinely nice and seemed to be a real friend to Maria. Does he have a shipper group yet? I get a kick out of the shipper names. The BillyBobs? The Beverly Hillbillies? (Is hillbilly an offensive term? I honestly wonder. No offense intended. ) The Elvis Impersonators? The Music Men? He was sort of like Maria's 'Sean', but I liked Sean less. Sean wasn't awful, just seemed to be a threat to the Liz/Max connection. Nice photo btw. Could that be Antar? Also, I think I began Zero's intro a long time ago, but I'm not sure if I ever finished it! I was a little sad at Liz's admission that she'd given up her dreams. Not our 'Miss Scientist'! Nooooo, Liz, don't give up your non-Max dreams! But on the other hand, Liz has made this choice. This is what she wants to do - be at Max Evans side. Lucky for the podsters in general, wouldn't you say? It would seem that there might be something alien about Liz, but I think she's all human aside from what she received from Max when he healed her. This might be old hat but I never thought Liz had actually died. She was close but Max didn't actually bring her back from the dead. Alexis, I hope the "grow" storyline will come up again for Liz. Since it happened for Maria, perhaps it will get Liz (and the writers) thinking about her possibilities. Speaking of the possibility of the Healing happening in S3. I still think it would happen. Perhaps Max's behavior/actions would be different afterwards somehow from his actions in S1, but he loves her. I don't think he would let her die for the sake of the 'alien stuff'. Oh man, I want to finish reading posts but there's only so many minutes in a day...*sigh*. See ya later! [ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: Mavonne ] |
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Posted 11-28-2001 02:34 PM by avaSpeaks
Mavonne I'm fine I think that also Liz needs to find her balance...she doesn't have to give up on what she wants to do in life, but once they start discovering the connections, then shw will begin to realize her importance to the group and to Max. Also, I think that something metaphysical needs to happen before Max finally realizes that she is important, I think they are still in the girlfriend/boyfriend stage of importance, but something needs to happen that will blow Max's mind, something apart from Max...Liz needs to develop powers independant of Max...but both Liz and Max needs to re-connect the focus so then they can grow and defeat the enemies with their combined energies and talents, so they can defeat the enemy... |
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Posted 11-28-2001 04:50 PM by shapeshifter
RBI alert: Why isn't Michael's name on Mr. Evans' board? Or Maria? Or Alex? Or Valenti? Or...?
quote:It would certainly be a good message for the teens in the audience if they discover that Liz needs to study really hard and go to MIT (or whatever Important University) to become the scientist that beats the Evil Aliens to some crucial discovery.
quote:This still rattles around in my mind too because she "had to look at" Max for him to heal her. But then there's Ava saying that Liz is changed because "Max brought you back." And then there's Liz writing in her journal saying she "died." |
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Posted 11-28-2001 07:35 PM by Zero
Hi all - I only have a short time - and so much to say!! But I have to run to a meeting in a few minutes. I really enjoy the current topic of discussion. I also really enjoyed last nights episode for a variety of reasons. I think we are headed for a full-blown Liz/Max confrontation! While I loved the "girls' talk" between Maria and Liz - I was also sad to hear Liz talk about giving up her dreams for Max (and the other aliens), especially since Max is NOT one of my favorites right now. Though I do agree with AvaSpeaks and everyone else that Max is under a lot of pressure, etc. I also feel like he is a jerk - often! It broke my heart when he asked for the necklace back without any show of concern re: what he was asking of Liz! Liz may love Max, but I believe she may be starting to not "like" him and his "attitude." While I do believe that Liz is Max's balance - I believe that (based on TEOTW comments) that she needs to be away from him to "change" and "grow." Does this be developing powers? I have always hoped - but regardless, she needs to separate from him in order to develop fully - whatever that means!! I also agree - that like Willow - Max hit rock bottom, but not hard enough to "wake him up" to the importance of Liz to him and his kind! Notice that the "time to wake up" is mentioned when Liz and Maria are talking a couple of times. This reflects back to the "Stepford Max Chronicles" when Liz kept telling Max to "wake up." Liz was at her strongest last season during this time of separation. She was growing - now she has stagnated while assisting in the search for Spawn! I hope the writers have the ability to play on this!! Okay - I love the Parents' investigation! But what was with Mr. Evan's comment about the "Jeep's" disappearance? Where did Max live all summer? The Jeep disappeared in the spring, and just now the parents are asking about it??? Can the writers spell "CHAD"? I like that Mr. Evan's didn't believe Iz - as someone said elsewhere - did Max and Mikey G forget that she lied to her parents for months about Jesse? Opps! I know I have more - but I have to run!! But I'm still wondering what Max was trying to prevent by taking the necklace back from Liz! ?? Zero |
Posted 11-28-2001 09:54 PM by Mavonne
quote: I liked the way the L/M opening scene of BTM was shot. When Max asked for the pendant back without any gesture of affection or concern for Liz's feelings about that or...well, he just didn't seem very loving. I know it wasn't an emotional scene or a romantic scene but...do you remember the way L/M used to 'look many words' at each other. To me every time Max sees Liz he should get down on his knees. Liz isn't perfect (I'm still having problems with PresentLiz not confiding in PresentMax about the problems of the future. I still think she should have told him and that there would have been better results all around - i.e. Alex being alive. ), but Max has been taking her for granted. His apology/explanation concerning Tess fell far short of what I was expecting. He seemed to dismiss the whole episode rather casually and since he has no way to go after his son, he might as well hang around and try to make Liz's little dreams come true. Liz honey, dump this fool (for a while ) and hightail it to MIT/Harvard/Temple U. [hee-hee!] and get your BS, MS, and triple PhDs in biochem and live your life!
Okay, I'm alright now. I do actually still like Max, just not as much. Liz's other half needs to come out of the White Room and join us. Did anyone else enjoy the platonic Polarism? Liz, the Comforter of the Aliens. Good scene. How about when Michael was trying to repair the glass jars? Actually, it seems like the lives of all the humans are only being lived right now according to the dictates of the aliens' needs. So I'm kinda glad Maria has separated herself from Michael for her own sake. I'm thinking that Liz needs this distance from the 'alien hootinanny' too - much more than Maria! Mr. Evans scares me. He's like a crime boss. Sooner or later he'll come around to pick Liz's brains. I'd like to see how she handles him. She's been pretty firm with the adults this season. |
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Posted 11-28-2001 10:14 PM by shapeshifter
Zero, excellent post! and the ratings are up a bit too. Maybe there will yet be a season 4 so it can go into syndication? quote:Liz giving the necklace back was a sadly symbolic moment. But I'm wondering about the costume/choregraphy/direction/photography of it: was the suggestiveness of it supposed to symbolize Liz's willingness to give anything to Max at this point? He would probably have been taking the necklace to avoid having Liz get caught with anything alien that would incriminate her--this in turn would symbolize his repentence since 'Busted.' Mavonne, we posted at the same time! quote:Good point. I never had the problem that so many did when she politely but firmly (I thought) told Mrs. Evans she couldn't help her. Now it looks like once again, Liz was right. And maybe I'm silly, but I'm looking forward to a reunion between Michael & Maria that will rival the Season 1 vibes. [ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 11-28-2001 11:10 PM by Nemo
Symbolism note: I imagine most of the RBI's noticed that neat row of four pictures behind Isabel in her new place. (Again, one of the four was twofold -- two frames one behind the other.) But, puzzlingly, one of the four got replaced by the potted plant that Mr. Evans brought. Another small matter: when Liz tells Maria that Max was hyper about his dad's spying, she describes this as "alien DefCon 5." Usually Liz gets these things right, but this looks reversed: DefCon 5 is normal peacetime readiness; DefCon 1 is the highest alert. http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/defcon.htm [ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: Nemo ] |
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Posted 11-29-2001 06:00 AM by shapeshifter
Nemo, not very symbolic, but maybe the plant had a surveilance device in it? |
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Posted 11-29-2001 08:56 AM by haniczka
The season began with Max telling Liz he was going to make all of her dreams come true. Now, she says she doesn't have any dreams. That's discomforting. Great posts, everyone. -HH |
Posted 11-29-2001 09:45 AM by Metaphysicalgrl
quote: Well it has certainly been awhile since I've engaged in a discussion on this board with you all! Hi Zero and all my other long lost friends on here! In regards to your comments above, I honestly think that it was the events in Utah that made Phil go 'aha! Something isn't right here'. Like I said in a previous post, this man is a lawyer. What happened in Utah made him very suspicious of what Max was involved in, as it should have. When Max said to him in Utah, "I can never tell you the truth" did he not realize his father was a lawyer, and it's his job to find out the truth? Phil said to Max in the boat while fishing, "you scare me... I'm scared that you are involved in something dangerous and I won't be able to help you." Phil is acting out of love for his kids. He is a lawyer, and what is happening now is that he is backtracking and building a case -- as lawyers do. Previous to the events in Utah, he had no reason to suspect that there was anything suspicious about Max getting rid of the jeep. Now that he is questioning what Max is involved in, he is going back over everything and trying to find answers. I mean, he even hired a private detective to get some dirt... very 'lawyerish' of him. I like the fact that he doesn't trust Isabelle either. This storyline is actually, in my opinion, not chadish at all, as long as they present it as The Events In Utah started Phil on his investigation. My main concern about this storyline, is that now that Isabelle told Phil about Tess, he is going to try and find her. Either he will look for her and locate her somewhere on earth, or he will realize that she just disappeared and will think Max killed her? I like this storyline, but if either of these things result from it, I will think the storyline sucked. In any case, I just wanted to throw that out there for you guys to play with. Hope everyone is well! And even though I've lost a lot of my passion for mything about Roswell, it's always a pleasure to talk and disect with you wonderful people! Smiles, |
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Posted 11-29-2001 10:46 AM by Alexis
Just a note or two or four : Maria mentions horses again when she says “There’s enough hairspray to choke a horse.” There was something else, but I can’t remember it. |
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Posted 11-29-2001 10:50 AM by avaSpeaks
Yes, I do agree that Max is being acting jerky, but he is not just acting this way with Liz, he is acting this way with EVERYBODY. Max is turning into what he was in the past, he is using everybody and not really caring about anybody feelings right now, jsut his son, who doens't know anything about. Observe Mike:roswell_Mike: He was not really concerned with Mike's problem, his first reaction to Mike blowing things was to get it under control because he may do that in front of his father. Maria Told Mike to break off the date with Maria, he knows how Maria cares for Mike, and he told Mike to cancel the date with her like she was nothing important. Kyle Him and Max were never friends, and probably never will be. But yet Kyle has been able to establish stable friendships and relationships with everyone else, including Tess and Alex. And has almost sacrifce the most in knowing and helping Max. Still, he thinks to call Max when they found the tow truck. Isabel He runs her life like he controls it. And then he asked her to lie to her parents for him, yet he didn't want her to tell Jesse the truth. Valenti You would think that he would go to him for some guidence and advice. But if soemthing goes down, he will go to him them. Liz His soulmate. His one and only true love. He is so gone, he doesn't even see that. He treats her like she is suppossed to do this for him, when he doens't realize that she does it because she loves him and BECAUSE SHE IS HIS FRIEND. She needs to break up from him, and just be his friend. Because right now, she can't be his girlfriend. Tess When the Tess was doing eveything he said, she was a traitor and he didn't see it coming. But when Liz is doing everything he says, he ignores her. The traitor gets the noticed while the true friend gets ignored. Max is turning into a machine. Even Mike said that Max wouldn't know what it takes to really heal him, and I think a simple break up from Liz wouldn't do the trick either. something very drastic has to happen, like the death of his son, or him going to AnTar to only find that the baby was mindwarp and a trap, to insure that Max would come back home. Max needs to realize that these people are his friends, and he needs to realize the love of his mother, Mrs. Evans. Kal named the 3 most important women in his life, his sister, his girlfriends, his mother. I think Kal knew that him and his sister was close, that's why he named her first (maybe?) but next came his humansoulmate...and he didn't name her by name, but we know he wasn't talking about Tess because she was the other hybrid and there were only 4. And then Kal named his mother, who felt like she already lost him. I say bring on the Liz changes and maybe hopefully Max and can wake up, just don't let him a take a bullet in the heart for Liz and then he dies in the end, and she let with memories and the chance to move on with her life....I don't want Max to be just another "he changed my life" person for Liz...that will suck and defeat the purpose. Okay, take it away! [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: avaSpeaks ] |
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Posted 11-29-2001 10:51 AM by elenac
Here’s my take after Reggie’s suggestion to also consider Jesse’s part in the wedding. M/Mi/I secret has been revealed by: So Iz’s the only one that hasn’t revealed it to anybody. As I already suggested, Iz marrying Jesse is trying to break free from Max and her asking for his permission to reveal Jesse her alieness shows even more how much she depends on his consent. What if she told Jesse without asking him? Surely Max wouldn’t kill him because of it and had to face it, but in this case Iz had to take the responsibility on herself and she doesn’t seem ready for it. The fact that Iz is hiding this big part of herself to Jesse is surely bad. I believe she loves him and she’s trusting and relying on his help to take a step towards independence so I wouldn’t go that she’s looking just for sex, w it comes to women it’s almost never only about sex. What’s strange is that Max after all let’s her marry. If we only go back to that scene in ITL&ITB, where he forbids her to go to college to S.Francisco, we can see how he acted as a tyrant with her, he was scaring, and the occasion was far less important than getting married. So what’s new? If my theory that after MTD Zan’s essence has rejoined Max’s will ever come true, there could be an explanation that leads to Tess and Liz. When in BIY Max finds Liz in Tess’ house asking about her powers, I sensed that there was something more than just resentment for Liz on Max’s part. What if it was Zan that was warning Tess that Liz was on the right path to find out the truth. Saying so explicitly to Liz that she was accusing Tess of Alex’s death, could only lead to make Liz turn away from that path while Tess could’ve the opportunity to do something about it. Infact later Liz reaches that conclusion following another path. And also when in Departure Max kisses Tess and gives her the flash of Liz’s kiss, it could have been Zan warning her who was the enemy to keep an eye on as he knew Liz discovered that Leanna was not the alien killer. But after Tess revealed the deal with Khivar and that she was turning them to him, both Zan and Max felt betrayed and Zan probably started to rely on Max’s human side, therefore also having a more open attitude towards his sister. Going back to were I started, I still feel that Iz and Jesse’s relationship could be saved. What if Liz tells Jesse for some lifesaving reason and he doesn’t believe her. Surely this way Max’s disapproval could be overtaken. Then, maybe next season, he’ll have to face it, if they decide to have children. But I’m probably looking too far in front. The producers/writers have to win back some audience, lost for at least three bad moves. They could use some help from Liz. [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 11-29-2001 10:57 AM by Zero
Met - I'm glad to see you back, too. ITA w/ you about why Mr. Evans has now taken up the investigation! It is totally in character for him, as a lawyer, to start looking for answers to questions that took on a new meaning after Utah. (The "aha" moment!) I just think that the "Jeep" questioning could have been phrased differently given the timeline of things! And while I expect Mr. Evans to investigate the Tess disappearance - and I do want the whole Tess crap (sorry - but that is how I feel about that ) resolved, I do not want it to be resolved through this storyline! I hope that the ultimate result is that the Parents find out the "truth" about the pod squad, and that we get to see how they deal with it - and the kids deal with them knowing. One of the the things I like best about that "other" alien show (Smallville) is the relationship that Kent has with his parents! So, far it has been well written. Mavonne - I too wish that Liz had told Max about FM, and don't understand how that can still be hanging out there - but it is! I'm hoping with the reshowing of TEOTW that we will finally get some resolution to this topic in the future! I also enjoyed the Liz and Mikey G moment (though who fills sugar jars with a teaspoon? ) at the counter. Their interactions are always wonderful - I wish the writers did more with this friendship (nothing romantic - but protective and supportive)! It has so much chemistry. When the cast photo came out with Mikey G standing behind Liz - I thought - now that would be cool. Again - not romance - but a true, and deep, friendship evolving between the "loser" and the "smart girl"! I loved Liz's line - best of the whole show - SS - I too understand "why" Max wanted the necklace - and all alien articles - back, BUT their is deeper meaning to him asking for it back. I thought the scene was well done because it showed Max's disconnect with Liz's emotions - and the symbolism of how Liz pulls the necklace which is next to her heart out and gives it to Max was significant to me! I just think - that scene and Max's lack of emotional connection to Liz at this time combined with what Liz said to Maria tells me that (if the writers have their act together) Liz is headed to major confrontation with Max about it "all"! I guess we will see - but given that the Pilot and TEOTW are playing - so I read - I'm HOPING!! that Liz and her relationship will come front and center again! I'm tired of watching her talk to Max by cell phone! Zero |
Posted 11-29-2001 10:58 AM by avaSpeaks
quote: But there was 8 in the group!! So what two would be missing? |
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Posted 11-29-2001 11:01 AM by kla
Hey all! Was wondering if any of you read the Ron Moore interview about Roswell's new season. He makes a comment about the end of season 2, with Tess leaving and taking their only way home, that it "ended several plot lines." I guess that's true, but it just sounded like the writers don't really have a clue how many "chads" and loose ends they have left. It seems painfully obvious to me that the writers may not even realize that we have tons of questions out here in viewerland and are reading way more into their story lines than even exists. As much fun as it is to speculate about Liz's importance or the real meaning of "anything," it is also a little disheartening to think that the writers aren't as interested in the characters as we are. And because they aren't, we will never know the real story when Roswell is over and done. So sad! Maybe it's no wonder that Brendan Fehr wants Michael to die in the end. That may be the only way to achieve "closure," as he put it. Here's hoping we don't achieve closure too soon. |
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Posted 11-29-2001 12:37 PM by avaSpeaks
kla, I agree. You know I was thinking about something. Since Max slept with Tess, you know he's been a jerk. But maybe if Max sleeps with Liz, he will become more human again, you know like if they re-connect again, and then maybe she is the only one that can soften him up... Like just because she is regressing in her powers or their connnection, doesn't mean they can't get it back...maybe she just need to move ahead and move forward first and then everything else will fall into place. Like maybe both Liz and Max have lost something along the way. Just a thougth. I have a question for you guys. I know most of us want Liz to grow in her powers, and some even want Liz to separate from Max for a little while... But I want to know if you guys think that LIz and Max will come back to each other at the end, and how do you see this happening, or how would you want it to happen... And please don't ignore this...I'm curious to see if we even think Liz and Max can re-unite together Especaially after her changing. I think that the changes will be important to the relationship of Max and Liz. |
Posted 11-29-2001 05:38 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Well, I read a while back that JK said that when he did finally reunite Liz & Max it would be permanent, and we've now seen that happen. But I also read that he likes to have the freedom to spontaneously make things happen. So I guess that would mean anything's possible--including another break up. But I am not willing to go there in my mind. I'd rather see a Liz who will sacrifice for and remain true to Max while at the same time being strong and finding that she doesn't have to give up her dreams after all. I would like to see her having to go to the University to help with research on something that will either save the world from evil aliens, or save Antar from evil aliens, or save Antar (or podsters) from evil humans. Or maybe she and Max will set up a private laboratory, and in the end she will be rewarded with an honory PhD for here work, or be hired by a prestigious pharmaceutical or nuclear physics lab. |
Posted 11-29-2001 07:30 PM by Mavonne
quote: At this point I'd like to see Liz living independently from any involvement with Max's problems. Maybe this would fracture the show or maybe it could work with a seperate storyline. Can there be a 'Liz Grows Up Without Alien Hootinanny' storyline running parallel to the 'Alien Hootinanny' storyline? Or Liz could be living her life, majoring in science and all of that and she makes some of her usual discoveries about the aliens somehow while away at college or Zan (the New Yawk dupe) shows up at a rave party she attended with some reservations and asks for her help or something like that. (Excuse the sloppy grammar. I'm just throwing words down. ) I really want her to leave him. You can love someone, but it's not healthy if the way you show your love hurts you. I think Liz is being hurt in the sense that she is not living her life. Should her life be a constant sacrifice to the needs of the one she loves? Is that a healthy love? Max (a dear boy - yes, I still care) needs to change. Or rather - Max needs to give of himself to Liz. How is Max nurturing his friendship with Liz? Yes, I know he has a lot going on, but if he expects her (as I think he does now) to be there for him, he has to be there for her. I'd like to see either Liz break it off (preferably) or Max break it off (still good) telling her he cares for her too much to drag her into his mess any more. I do believe he loves her as much as ever but he's way lax in showing it. And anyone who'll see the Pilot for the first time next Tuesday will probably have the shock of their Roswell fandom. How do you go from that Max to this Max? Why would anyone want to? He wasn't perfect then. That's not it. It's just that he's been kinda devoid of life for the last half of S2 and now he's General Zan Patton. The last time I saw my favorite Max was in the old mill or wherever they were in Destiny when he seemed like a leader but he was still Max. Any thoughts? Okay, I'll take a breather. |
Posted 11-29-2001 08:07 PM by healersbabe
quote: SS I hope not you imagine if Hussein kidnaps her too like the Harvard BioChem director !! Meta you're still here !! AvaSpeaks I would like to see Liz take on Kivar herself in a very tranquil peaceful outcome resolution from the fact Max is no longer a problem for him nor his lineage now that he himself has the granolith (LIZ). This being probably the only thing I see being able to spark anything positive from Max-perhaps he come to her rescue even if in the end for his own selfish needs. Antarians having a decent ruler and an end to all their civil wars. I don't think Max is EVER going to be worth it less he starts believing in God. The boy has to be the most ungrateful thing alive. God puts the perfect gift in his hands and he's too busy collecting jewels . I agree Max is the biggest jerk I'd seen in a LONG time and I'm still convinced that this new Max only wanted the baby to restore his throne. I'm hoping that FMax was Zan or that somehow he and PMax switched places, thus why he'd not be anymore. Maybe this is why the new Max is so cold and heartless. RE: Pa Evans [ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: healersbabe ] |
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Posted 11-30-2001 07:30 AM by GraceKel
Hey fellow Liz Mythers---third time I typed this geesh--so I will shorten it up New theory--Topolsky says to Max--its hard to move forward with your future until you understand your past--she asks who are you in this picture? And he replies--the one behind the tree--watching the ROYAL4 PLAY? Max--behind the tree--KIVAR? |
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Posted 11-30-2001 07:34 AM by GraceKel
Ever since Max took on his destiny to be Zan--its like he is someone else--a case of mistaken identity? Zan-Michael in season1 was out of control, impulsive dangerous, probably not a good leader? Ava-Isabel(queen Amidala-hidden queen)loved Zan but even she was torn between Zan and her own Brother Kivar(Max?) Michael and Isabel had flashes of having a son together---in a former timeline-past life experience after all history keeps repeating itself? |
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Posted 11-30-2001 07:40 AM by GraceKel
Vilondra--Liz--Michael/Zan's sister, she loved her brother but also knew he wasn't the best leader, fell in love with Kivar--families are enemies-but chance for peace--something went wrong--Kivar got the blame but WAS IT HIS FAULT? I am coming for you LIZ/Vilondra the NEW QUEEN OF HEARTS. This would also explain Liz's being caught in the middle in the Balance--betrayal of brother-believing him to be dangerous leader and love of enemy Kivar--loving both but..... |
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Posted 11-30-2001 07:44 AM by GraceKel
Rath--Kyle---who felt betrayed by Vilondra his betrothed because she was in love with his brother Kivar(maybe brother) Max? I am coming for you Liz/Vilondra--so whats the problem |
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Posted 11-30-2001 07:48 AM by GraceKel
Max tells Liz in Wipeout--it is our fault what happened to your family-----is he referring to her ROYAL FAMILY here---Liz says no we have to be strong--maybe because although Kivar got the blame--he didn't deserve the blame--Kivar wanted peace, the coo was suppose to a peaceful coo but somehow something went wrong? Okay so what do you think? LOL--let me have it |
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Posted 11-30-2001 07:56 AM by GraceKel
Isabel today--believes she was Vilondra---and in one of Vilondras past lives--she married a human--Ed Hubble--Sheila and Ed remember---watch out Isabel look what heppened to Sheila, ah yes and someone did try to get rid of Liz didn't they? In this crazy mixed up world--Maria has become more Liz-like--but she realizes that this is not who she is really--She said this is not me. Before they can move ahead with the future--they have to understand the past and they haven't gotten there yet? |
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Posted 11-30-2001 07:58 AM by GraceKel
I wasn't going to post this because I figured they would run in a totally different direction but since now I feel as though the show might be ending pretty soon, thought I would throw it out there. |
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Posted 11-30-2001 08:02 AM by GraceKel
Oh one more thing---I could have Michael/Zan and Kyle/Rath mixed up--it could be the other way around--not sure-- Actually this would explain Michael telling Max you are a good brother---because Max/Kivar is Raths brother? And Ava is their sister--therefore, these 3 are related? and they have come for Vilondra/Liz LOL |
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Posted 11-30-2001 08:04 AM by GraceKel
Oh one more thing and Kivar/Max could have been the FIFTH mentioned--your brothers 2nd in command? |
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Posted 11-30-2001 08:13 AM by GraceKel
Okay a few more thoughts--maybe Liz and Kyle-if they are Vilondra and Zan are suppose to be living at the Evans house and Kivar and Ava are suppose to be at the sheriffs house---afterall--Tess/Ava called Jim--DAD? But Isabel tells Jim you are like a father figure to me--well maybe its more than that LOL!!! |
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Posted 11-30-2001 08:53 AM by Chanteuse
Hi, I've lurked here for a long time. All of your theories are so thought provoking. I wish all of you wrote for the show. The story lines would be a lot more meaningful. I remember last year when Max gave Liz back the knife, one of the posters got a very elaborate description about the archeotypical meaning of knives. I'm doing a paper for school and I wanted to include that in my paper. I was wondering if anyone knows a site where I can get the meanings of archeotypes. |
Posted 11-30-2001 10:25 AM by avaSpeaks
quote:[/QUOTE] Yes, this is exactly what I want...and this is exactly what I think can happen, Liz just needs to have more self confidence about herself!!! |
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Posted 11-30-2001 10:34 AM by avaSpeaks
Okay guys, now that we have only 6 eppys left after Eppy #13, what and how do you think this should paly out... Not to spoil but I think in this case, it's called for... In Eppy #12, the title is "Changes" and it's a Liz eppy. And then we have Eppy #13... So now we have at least 2 eppys dealing with Liz's changes, but now UPN has cut the remaining 9 after those two eppys to 6.... So, now how do you think it should go now...since season 4 is unlikely. I think that they need to think about this very carefully, because I don't want the show to end felling that Max and Liz will not be allright, it needs to end with Max worthy of Liz, and with Liz and max working together to defeat the enemy...and the last 6 really need to be Max/Liz heavy and Max/Maria/Liz heavy...because it can't end on a bad or uncompleted not...I want to be satisfied with the end... Okay, spec away!!! |
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Posted 11-30-2001 11:21 AM by kla
To Avaspeaks -- Personally, I'd rather not speculate about how the show will end just yet. It's a little too soon. I'd rather like to think that UPN will end up satisfied with the ratings and give us the rest of the season, and a season 4. After all the WB gave it two chances. UPN should do the same. And besides, UPN is much smaller than the WB, who is smaller than most of the others, and they aren't expecting to beat anyone in the ratings. They are looking for improvement over other shows that came before. Roswell has done that and if the writer's continue with episodes like Behind the Music, then we may begin to even see bigger improvements. Let's not let TPTB, who just might drop by from time to time, think that we are ready for the show to end. Just My Opinion. And thanks for letting me share it. |
Posted 11-30-2001 11:26 AM by avaSpeaks
quote: That's true. But these networks pay attention to ratings more than you think. Yes, UPN is smaller, but they want to be bigger, so does the WB. So they will concentrate on bringing in bigger and better things. If ABC, is willing to let go of "Who's Wants to be A Millionaire" because of ratings, then I'm sure that UPN is paying attention to the ratings of their shows as well. And again, I just read Jason's article about his role in his new movie, and he sounds very excited to be getting new roles. Keep that in mind, we can spec. till the cows come home, but if there are no actors that are willing and ready to put their all into the scenes, or if there are no writers willing to write these ideas on paper and bring them to the screen...then it's worthless. So again, I asked, how do you guys want this to end? |
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Posted 11-30-2001 12:12 PM by GraceKel
Okay so nobody has commented on my speculation really yet LOL---but now I am thinking of the pendant--- Riverdog tells Liz--this is dangerous it brings DEATH According to Kivar--he and Vilondra would do anything and everything for each other til one night HE LOST HER I can't quite make the connection here must give it more thought--but symbolism going on there when Max who thinks he is Zan asks Liz for the pendant back? |
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Posted 11-30-2001 12:26 PM by avaSpeaks
GraceKel, I don't really think there is a connection. I think that River Dog was warning that the pendent was dangerous, and maybe that's why Max took it back, becuase he has to hid all the alien evidence. He did it, but doesn't know that is was the right to do??? |
Posted 11-30-2001 01:05 PM by Alexis
quote: I definitely agree that Liz has sacrificed a lot without Max sacrificing much, or REALLY showing it. Love is sacrifice, but generally it is reciprocal. I want to see the Max of Destiny—a strong leader, but still Max: Read NOT A JERK! He can be that way! The writer’s can redeem him. But without that redemption Max is an unlovable character and Liz looks like a chump. Liz is stronger than that. She never needed Max’s permission for anything. She did things out of love, which she seems to be doing now, but she is smart and the writer’s will have her figure it out. [ 11-30-2001: Message edited by: Alexis ] |
Posted 11-30-2001 07:40 PM by shapeshifter
quote: And then JK himself said Max would become more like Michael this season. Although it has the feel of shapeshifting, I think it's just supposed to be part of the whole teen angst dillema of 'finding' and 'discovering one's self.'
quote:Ooo, avaSpeaks, that's pretty depressing--and I am guessing you must think so too and are hoping for some support here. Well, maybe there will be a "Roswell II" or "Son of Roswell" starring new, younger, actors in the future? Pretty lame, but it's Friday, and it was the best I could come up with. ***shapeshifter looks in her archives*** or here, how's this: IMAGE: www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/stuff/QueenLiz2.jpg |
Posted 11-30-2001 07:52 PM by healersbabe
quote: Tell ya something,...if Liz becomes Vilondra....Maxie boy better start peddaling his way back to Antar right about now... . I hate to admit that she could probably have them both (bro Kivar/Zan) under her little finger and them not know it...I still think that Isabel was Vilondra and they closed that little CHAD faster than you could say Wormhole. Too bad Max didn't crawl back up it ... Liz could never be "villain" "vilon or vilindra" But I do like that turn that Zan/Kivar are brothers. I do think however that they are not else Kivar wouldn't need his brother at all to rule in peace, unless thats the only thing Liz could bring into the equation. Frankly I'm still praying that this was FMax letting Zan come into the equation. I think Max would have never gone into the look for his child to gain his throne back storyline. I'm hoping that Max is now Zan or that FMax did this to somehow prevent something from happening to Liz or their kids. FMax having gone back into the past to speak to FLiz then going back again with her agreement to help in PLiz. |
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Posted 11-30-2001 07:57 PM by Style
I am still a believer that the scientist on Antar truly believed, besides protecting the royal (3) essence, that earth would change their attitudes, by making them more compassionate. With the presence (S2) of destiny, Antar style, it made Max/Zan, the king revert back to his old self, which, at this point, probably caused their demised in the past. Liz is the Key, at least for the King, to succeed wherein he failed, in the past. Style |
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Posted 11-30-2001 10:15 PM by GraceKel
Healersbabe--I didn't say that Kivar was Zan's brother but Raths brother, and Ava probably their sister? Just a speculation of course. Shapeshifter--I really am not talking about shapeshifting here--maybe more manipulation or mindwarping, or simply that they are taking on the personas of people because of who they think they are? I really wasn't thinking of actual shapeshifters at work here at all---and of course your theory makes perfect sense as well, don't get me wrong, but since this is a scifi show I was hoping for something a bit more scifi going on here--than just oh well Maria is acting like Liz because Maria is growing up-LOL!!! Style--I would say the same to you--of course the story could be that simple--3 not so nice aliens brought to the earth to discover some humanity--LOL--but again--I was hoping for something MORE than just this LOL!!! I hate to be a stinker here but with that I will be left with "IS THAT ALL THERE IS?" Healersbabe--as far as Liz being Lonnie this rotten Lonnie from the DUPES actually I wasn't thinking of the DUPES at all LOL---We don't know for sure if the dupes were as presented--who brought them, who created them--so I wasn't even factoring them in at all quite frankly. The Dupes could have been created by their enemies and fed lies and manipulations as well for all we know so like I said I didn't factor them in at all. |
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Posted 11-30-2001 10:36 PM by Style
Hey baby, GraceKel, sci-fi is as simple, twist. LOL There is always destiny in a sci-fi, but destiny, rarely is what destiny is surpose to be. Last night, I watched STNG, wherein, pursuant to destiny, a young female, from a race of people, who have been fighting a war since forever (day and night, light and dark). This young alien, female, was from both waring factors, mother & dad, who loved each other. They fled their world, their child was borned, but both parents were murdered. Her protectors protected her as well as taught her, her destiny, to one day return back to this world, to united the people. She was sheltered until she met Wesley, and questioned her destiny. To make a long story short, in that short period of being with another species, the young alien, was awakened. She at that point understood that was her surpose, to united her world, but she also learned a good lesson, to be open minded, compassion. To me, this is Liz and Max, and although, Roswell, on thier wings, flew another direction, the bird, will come back to it's initial purpose. The Antar's scientist, I believed, hoped for it. Style |
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Posted 11-30-2001 10:53 PM by shapeshifter
GraceKel, I didn't really think you meant Maria and Liz and everyone were shapeshifting, I was just thinking it sounded almost like that. And that would be too scary for me. If anyone's going to do any shapeshifting, it better not be involuntary. But with Melinda Metz having a hand in an upcoming ep, maybe the podsters & friends will do a little shapeshifting--'cause I doubt ol' Kal is up for shapeshifting into Tess to prove that Max didn't murder her. Okay, it's way too late here in the Midwest, and I should not be allowed to post anymore! |
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Posted 12-01-2001 08:18 AM by Mavonne
avaSpeaks, I reread my last post and discovered that after quoting your question and writing this loooong reply, I didn't answer it! Got off on a li'l tangent. Pardon. Okay, would L/M get together again and how do I see it happening? I see Liz away at school loving it and doing brilliant work (of course). She finds out from Maria how Max is doing and vice versa. Max even writes or calls her himself once or twice for strained and emotionally loaded chit-chat. In the summer between her sophomore and junior year or during her junior year Liz makes some kind of discovery that will help whatever problem the Podsters are having at the time (which Maria notifies her about) or Max in desperation and as the very last resort asks for her help. Then we see them slowly reconnecting and rebuilding their relationship. This would take a couple seasons. |
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Posted 12-01-2001 09:16 AM by elenac
It’s getting impossible to get on the board when it’s after dinner for me, I’m behind reading this thread and probably for this reason my last posts have been a bit out of contest with the ongoing discussion. But I’m now updated also with the last three eps and can post few comments to share with you. Max returned to Liz the “I love you but ....” line! So he got the message but now is in a defensive mode. But the girl’s always in the right place at the right moment and hope he notices. We have two fathers in a quest to find their lost child. Mr. Evans sr. and jr. I bet, at the end, they’ll both find someone. Maybe Evans sr. will use some help from Jesse as he was formerly involved with FBI, even if he denied it so quickly and was so convincing. When I saw Iz’s scene telling the truth to Jesse about being alien I went: OMG I posted something that already happened but then was reassured seeing it was her imagination. So there’s still hope he’ll eventually accept it and was glad that they’re giving him that protector’s edge Iz needs so much and not only showing him like a total victim. Maria breaking up with Michael, so forced! I did get the message that our humans are getting the feeling they’re losing a lot of their expectations for the future and now that all the excitement of the alien novelty is cooling down they’re in an aftermath mode. Yet it happened too soon, it gave me the idea they were applying the forever alike series mechanism “now it’s yes”, “now it’s no”, “now it’s yes again” and so on before the relationship moves to the next stage and the yes/no mechanism starts all over again. And Michael was so sweet with his jealousy and was sooo Michael. [ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: elenac ] |
Posted 12-01-2001 11:37 AM by healersbabe
quote: Okie you did one mega broom sweep of every possibility/twist/turn . I'm trying to see which one could fit. I think its very interesting what you brought up about the pendant...I think I firmly believe FMax came back (if he's FMax and NOT FZan) that he did this to save Liz from possibly dieing in the future. I think that the events which led up to it have past. I think Riverdig is the bad shapeshifter I'm soo convinced. I think Maria is Serena... AND if that was FZan who came back to get an heir to his throne and now his desperate searching for it to get himself and the dupes back to Antar...I think FTess was Topolsky...and she got the granolith wrong, and thats why she didn't go back to Antar forcing Kivar to come himself and try to get it done. possibly the reason the royals where sent down to earth was for Max to find Liz/Granolith. The entire fact the wormhole was brought into the show is proof that that old machine was not what they were looking for...so back to pilot, they were trying to get the wrong thing and killed Liz thinking she was interfering when in reality she was it. OK now, as to Kivar/Isabel I think thats only part of his quest just because he still doesn't know Liz is it. Jesse is Isabel's protector, thats obvious. The Sheriff is the other protector, maybe Liz's. FMax changes the timelines so Liz is no longer important, no one wants her dead anymore and he can focus on his war...Sheriff V is no longer needed to protect Liz thus he's dispatched in the newtimeline. Maybe in change the timeline shifts back to how everything was when it was "normal". I think FZan sold Liz out and they finally got her in the future. FMax comes back to make sure she doesn't die?!? He wants her to fall out of love with him too so she's not involved in the war, little does he know part of the war was looking for her . |
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Posted 12-01-2001 02:20 PM by Vihmakass
pendant: We know were is pedant but were is that piece of it what Eddie give to Liz in Crashdown(RD)? Does Liz have it or Max? And why they don't fix it? ---------------- Pendant was at Atherton house but piece of it has RiverDog/Eddie...how,why.... This means...pendant wasn't just breaked but.... --------------- sry. [ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: Vihmakass ] |
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Posted 12-01-2001 02:41 PM by GraceKel
Style--I understand the theory about humanizing the aliens but quite frankly does this really add up---if you ask me Max Evans was a SWEET GENTLE ALIEN right from the BEGINNING---in Pilot in fact--LOL---even before he was really getting to know Liz---the very fact that he saved Liz to begin with HIS HUMANITY was very much intact--now certainly Isabel and Michael(especially) were untrusting and somewhat colder but I never saw Max as being anything but a sweet gentle alien TIL they MESSED with him in season2. So maybe Michael was Zan(spoiled selfish king) and if the DUPES version of Vilondra were to be believed and Isabel was like that--I would find that more believable(but actually I would find it even more believable if this were Tess who was Vilondra--Zan(Michael's sister). Quite frankly--the story does a lot of DOUBLE TALKING But then on the other hand Nicholas paints a different picture of Zan, and so does Kal Langley so which is it--who is lying, who is telling the truth? And of course above all why doesn't anyone ask a damn question??????? |
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Posted 12-01-2001 02:44 PM by GraceKel
Oh one more thing I forgot to add--in Behind the Music eppy----Michael scolds Max for putting AND JUSTICE FOR ALL ahead of MASTER OF PUPPETS----hmmmmmm--is there another clue here about Max being all about justice? |
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Posted 12-01-2001 02:57 PM by elenac
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shapeshifter:Good point. I never had the problem that so many did when she politely but firmly (I thought) told Mrs. Evans she couldn't help her. Now it looks like once again, Liz was right.[QUOTE] One would be me and I’d like to explain my point. What’s between mother and daughter-in-law it’s a rivalry over the love for the same man. I learned a lot about this relationship from my mother-in-law, not only because we share it but also because she felt free to talk with me about her relationship with her other daughter-in-law. And it’s amazing how far things can go. In my opinion if Liz didn’t want to reveal where Max was, had to lie to Diane saying she didn’t know either, then call Max and inform him his mother was desperately looking for him and leave to him the decision to call her. But she didn’t. One more thing, in the last scene of this ep, when Liz tells Max “I love you but .....” wasn’t she pointing out that he didn’t give her his news? |
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Posted 12-01-2001 03:02 PM by *M&L4eva*
liz is so important to what happens on the show and i think shes a little underappreciated by the aliens because she does a lot for them. i think shes appreciated but just a little under what it should be. After all shes done i think she deserves to be with max. |
Posted 12-01-2001 03:55 PM by shapeshifter
quote: Hmmm...another good point! And the camera focused on the broken pendant for quite a while, showing it to us, the audience.
quote:GK, thanks for bringing this up. As with the broken necklace, they certainly gave a lot of attention to this otherwise-out-of-place interchange. The "Master of Puppets" would be Kvar, don't you think? Michael's powers going 'out of whack' may signify that he and Max are about to swap roles again just as they did after Summer of 47. |
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Posted 12-01-2001 06:27 PM by GraceKel
Vih---good point about the broken necklace and where is that small piece? Does it mean anything, don't know. Shapeshifter--Master of Puppets-Kivar--well it very well could be--but after seeing the BIG BAD KIVAR--I started wondering about that--he didn't seem like this big bad really--well it was unclear to me---except for Michaels sudden memory retrieval--LOL--so I am not sure. So with regards to Master of Puppets--I couldn't help wondering just in fact who has been used as a puppet??????? I find this possession thing a little farfetched(wished they had come up with something better than this) because this awesome power it would seem that they could have taken over the whole universe by now so what would be the struggle? I know its suppose to have its time limits but still..... |
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Posted 12-01-2001 07:21 PM by shapeshifter
GraceKel, rethinking your words: "...Michael scolds Max for putting AND JUSTICE FOR ALL ahead of MASTER OF PUPPETS..." Maybe this is supposed to represent Michael's frustration with Max's unwillingness to lead. |
Posted 12-01-2001 07:23 PM by Mavonne
quote: Cut?! Season 4 unlikely?! I'm not really surprised but... |
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Posted 12-01-2001 08:09 PM by GraceKel
Shapeshifter--do you agree with that--that Max is unwilling to lead--I thought Max was actually demonstrating great leadership ability in season1--before he knew he actually was a leader, Michael always struck me as impulsive and too quick to act without being thoughtful and cautious? When Nicholas actually said "you use to decide the fate of entire armies with the drop of a coin" I thought--thats not Max. I guess he has been accused of being too passive, by not only Michael, but Isabel, and Nasedo--but again I didn't see it that way--Gandhi was a great leader who used non-violent passive resistance to achieve India's independence. But after he hooked up with Tess, he became this unrecognizable jerk, blackmailing Isabel, turning on Liz etc--again--so un Max like and rushing ahead with offing Leanna without great forethought. |
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Posted 12-01-2001 08:10 PM by shapeshifter
Mavonne, don't give up yet ***shapeshifter passes the Kleenex*** I finally found the "facts" I was looking for. This is by Brian Ford Sullivan (aka The Futon Critic) and can be found in its entirety at http://nielson.upn11tv.com/ quote:So, UPN might possibly want to cut this season short by a few eps to save money now, then air it one more season to make money in the long run (pun not intended, but a double entendre for our Roswell to be 'long running' would be nice ). [ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
Posted 12-01-2001 08:22 PM by healersbabe
quote: Hmmm, I didn't see it that way . Very true. VIH you're baaaaaaaaaaack!! Where the heck where you gone off to??! ?!? [ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: healersbabe ] |
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Posted 12-01-2001 10:13 PM by shapeshifter
The transcript to Secrets & Lies is up. quote:Then, in Control, Langely admits to killing Ferini because he knew Kal was an alien. So, if the agent wasn't just pretending that Joey told him everything...well, if Max ever mentions it to Liz, you can be sure she will take note! [ 12-01-2001: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 12-01-2001 11:03 PM by Vihmakass
sry.for this but does enyone remember what´exactli Michael saying to Vilondra before Khivar blows them up. Something how it was in Antar?Please help... [ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: Vihmakass ] |
Posted 12-02-2001 02:37 AM by mezz
quote: Oh I hope they do this. Please UPN please. ***gets down on knees and begs*** I want to see the end of the story |
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Posted 12-02-2001 03:47 PM by GraceKel
Vih--in answer to your question---Michael says "No Kivar told you it would be peaceful when you opened the gate to bring his men in but HE BETRAYED YOU, he was responsible....." Actually those aren't the exact words at all LOL---so I could be wrong but I thought it was something like that. Of course when I offered the theory that Max could actually be Kivar(LOL) I meant that Kivar might have gotten the blame but maybe he didn't deserve the blame at all, it was something more complicated than that. That he actually did love Vilondra(Liz) and he came back for her to make things right, not only for her but for her family, he did want peace, and he was not responsible for the massacre, simply blamed. It reminds me of the song WE HAVEN'T TURNED IT AROUND |
Posted 12-02-2001 04:21 PM by shapeshifter
quote: mezz, dear, get up off your knees (Max has left the room ) and write here: Dean Valentine, President & CEO or: About Liz: |
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Posted 12-02-2001 08:36 PM by peej
Hi all I don’t think max would ever let Liz die not then and not now! Yes he’s lost but he will find his way. I know he loves her; I’m sure Liz knows that and realizes what he’s going through. Even though it’s hard for us to watch max treat Liz not like he’s suppose to. But he will sooner than latter I hope. While rewatching destiny, whether this has been said (im sure it has). In the pod chamber when max asks “But if you're not the leader, who is?” Now everyone looks at him but then he looks to Liz. what important here is that max looks to her first then her looking at him, unlike everyone else looking at max first. (them been equals?) I think that is a huge clue. Ok now when they are listening to the momagram she says, “My son, you were the beloved leader of our people.” Now what I think, when the comment about max supposedly been the leader I think that it directed at Liz. There is no comment about been alien or anything like that. She is the leader for the humans and then when momagram says that comment about max been the leader. He is for the aliens. Liz and max are both the leaders, with their skill, leadership and knowledge, they will defeat their enemies. They both become intertwined and create the perfect pair. Why aren’t things going great now because the aliens don’t see Liz this way. Liz is the missing link. Liz changing will hopefully open their eyes and max's heart.
[ 12-02-2001: Message edited by: peej ] |
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Posted 12-03-2001 05:00 AM by elenac
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vihmakass: [QB]pendant: We know were is pedant but were is that piece of it what Eddie give to Liz in Crashdown(RD)? Does Liz have it or Max? And why they don't fix it? ---------------- Pendant was at Atherton house but piece of it has RiverDog/Eddie...how,why.... This means...pendant wasn't just breaked but.... --------------- You did stir my imagination. Let’s see if my story makes sense. The last to be seen of the necklace, except Departure, was in TB if I’m not mistaken (please correct me). So we may say that neither Nacedo nor Tess knew that Max had it. What if the necklace is Nacedo’s electronic agenda and the small piece is the back-up disk. Clearly I’m thinking in an earthly way, but being this is an alien thing it’s more sophisticated. What if the symbol on it means “exchange” as in: the agenda-exchanging information, the spaceship-exchanging places, Michael by the library in BD exchanging-information again. Don’t know if it’s clear what I mean, but if you find a better word to substitute to exchange I’m open to it. Back to the necklace. The missing bit may be at Max’s or at Liz’s. I’d prefer it to be at Liz’s and that she didn’t tell Max in the attempt to keep to herself something of him if he should jump on a spaceship and leave for good, that I think she fears. Now the parents. Either Evans sr. of Jeff will find the necklace bit and they’ll try to figure out what it is, finding out soon it’s something alien. Maybe Jesse will help through his FBI connection to read what’s inside it, clearly without revealing anything to the FBI (this is Roswell after all). Then they may decode it’s meaning through Alex’s translator (not finding the DB) that Liz should still have. This would lead to locate Tess and explain that all the kids are together in this and hiding it, not because there are aliens among them, but because it’s alien related therefore too dangerous to reveal and they’re now struggling to protect themselves. If the n-bit is at Liz’s, it could be together with her diary. Since I’m a wishful thinker and I believe that every ep holds a piece of info, after Liz lost it tore off all alien related pages, leaving only her thoughts about her relationship with Max, thus not revealing the parents the aliens’ secret. =================== SS – About Billy boy. ITA with you while my daughter says he is OK, not like Kyle her fav, but OK. Then she went: Does this guy ever change clothes? Girls! He’s been on screen for 5 minutes, why should he change clothes at all? =================== Italian food – My take that Liz didn’t succed in reassuring Michael about Maria and Bill, was not because Maria cooked Italian food, Mi was supposed to be there in the first place, but because she accepted Bill modifying the food. Meaning that adding cream into the meat sauce was Maria being open to experience something new and different with respect to what they shared up to then. [ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: elenac ] |
Posted 12-03-2001 03:40 PM by Reggie
quote: Interesting. I gave it a shot myself: see my latest episode, Windup. It's the sequel to Departure, Part 2. As for Season 4, I wouldn't bet on it. Given the ratings, and adverse viewer reactions (which UPN's publicity dep't must be aware of; it's their job), my guess is that UPN told JK that if he didn't FIX the show, they were going to cut their losses at 13 episodes. Remember, he's disappointed EACH and EVERY shipper group, and corrupted or discarded most of the characters (except Kyle, and possibly Michael). He now has 6 episodes for some kind of happy ending; and IF he can thus bring the viewership up, then they'll let him have three eps to set up for Season 4. Otherwise, no. If everything was OK, they'd have gotten all 9. We heard how much WB was "interfering" with JK last year, and that UPN wasn't. Given the differences in quality, perhaps WB actually knew what they were doing? |
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Posted 12-03-2001 10:37 PM by Roswell 10/2/00
Hi Everyone did anyone notice in the Episode to have and to hold how Isabel says that she never liked horses now this is ironic being that in the episode Blood Brothers Max crashes into a horse while driving in the desert. I also wonder if the stage coach necklace that Liz is wearing in the epiosed Viva las Vagas has any meaning to this? It makes me question what is the connection between horses and the aliens? Night everyone Roswell 10/2/00 [ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Roswell 10/2/00 ] |
Posted 12-04-2001 02:41 AM by elenac
quote: S1 finale had already badly mortgaged on couples’ demolition. M/L having Tess in between them as a bride. I/A having Mi as betrothed to her and Mi/M having Iz as Mi’s betrothed. S2 finale showed only the couples’ debris saving only Mi/M from the disaster. And we were already around full 43 eps. What should be said is that both the writers and WB or whoever, shouldn't give the audience a serie that "they" only understand or enjoy like in a wicked game, but a serie viewers can follow all the way through, even if loaded with mystery, and thus not rely only on those few wishful thinkers that are still trying to read into it and look so far in front like a in a chess game. A very tiring one. [ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: elenac ] |
Posted 12-04-2001 10:19 AM by avaSpeaks
quote: Man, I couldn't said it better myself...I totally believe that this is what it is....Max being the leader for the aliens...and Liz being the leader for the humans... Max being part human would help him understand and blend in with the humans....but Liz having laien powers as a human will help her defend herself and protect the others...It's a perfect fit However....the writers need to do this!! They need to write this!!! That's the problem!!! It's not Max not showing his love for Liz, it's the writers showing Max having blank ass faces and such...and I think the more he come face to face with aliens that he is not prepared to fight, then he loses himself. I say this because I was looking at the 2nd eppy of this season, the part when Max and Liz were kissing in the kitchen, he was all over her And he was enjoyingher, Liz, his Liz!!! But then we get Max asking for the pendent, without telling Liz why, WE know why, but we want to see LIZ know why??? Get it??? |
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Posted 12-04-2001 10:23 AM by avaSpeaks
Or one more thing!!! Shiri Appleby thinks that Liz is ready to mentally sleep with Max...and she mention how Liz is the last virgin on the show(so when did Kyle lose his virginity:eek She mentioned how she had been talking to the writers about that So now that we know that Shiri not only thinks that LIz and Max should be together, but she should sleep with him, and that she is talking to the writers about that???? What do you guys think of that??? |
Posted 12-04-2001 10:39 AM by Reggie
quote: Liz was best as a virtuous heroine. Not just mentally, but also as someone who was chaste as well. Of course, all that hero/heroine mythology stuff is in the garbage now. So are all the romances (there were 7 or more), the sci-fi, etc. <look of pain> |
Posted 12-04-2001 11:47 AM by avaSpeaks
quote: No, reggie, SA talked about that as well, how Liz was a role model, and how Liz stands up for her beliefs and how she appreciates her stances on life. |
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Posted 12-04-2001 11:50 AM by avaSpeaks
Here is the article to better assist my question: For the show's first two seasons, Max and Liz were the ultimate star-crossed That doesn't mean it's all angst. "I don't think the show is taking itself Just because Max and Liz are ever closer, don't assume they've gone all the Last season, Liz's best friend, Maria (Majandra Delfino), slept with her Considering that Liz has always been the show's "good girl," there might be So far, though, Appleby is proud that Liz has stood by her convictions. "A "The fact that she can take charge, stand up and voice an opinion, and not "That's probably one of the things I'm most proud of. When the show is |
Posted 12-04-2001 08:51 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Roswell 10/2/00, You must have the heart of a true RBIer! I "flashed" on the horse connection too in THATH. A search for the word "stagecoach" at the [ URL=http://ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology]Archive[/URL] pulls up 8 pages of discussion! You should try "horse" too! For instance from Thread 12 (SO47): quote:And if you throw in the word "Trojan" you'll go off on another of our tangents! Sorry, but the pic of Liz's stagecoach necklace was on Starbox's Photopoint collection, and is now gone! I will email her & see if she can send it along so we can repost it. (Right healersbabe? ) So, here's the horse from BB courtesy of the DDD: IMAGE: www.theddd.com/bb/bb13.jpg And here's this (just for fun ): ********************* AND I LOVED REWATCHING THE PILOT TONIGHT!!! In the beginning, as Liz is writing in her journal, the camera cuts away to the Crashdown while the voice-over continues, and Liz walks around an old, white-haired lady with horn-rimmed glasses who appears to be writing in a journal or something similar. Then, at the end, they show the previews to TEOTW which, as we all know, has Liz with a few 'gray' streaks in her wig (er..uh..hair? ). Does anyone understand where I'm going with this? Cause I can't quite put it into words right now. But one weird realization about the Pilot: *************
[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 12-04-2001 09:53 PM by peej
Hi all Watching it again on TV (have on tape) was just great. Liz and max sigh, tickles my heart. Ok my friend who is a big fan of the show but not as obsessed as I, I told her about how Liz is changed, and how she is changing. She made a comment about btm ep in the beginning before max asks for the pendent back she is holding her stomach. My friend asked if that meant something, you know her changing. She picked that up and I haven’t read that anywhere so im not sure what to think. Could this be something? "max you not making me do anything. we choose our own destinies, remember" |
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Posted 12-04-2001 11:00 PM by Style
The eppy of the PILOT, I thought would bring a new adventure into sci-fi, not the concept, but it's depiction therein. Something new. As I want to know, WHY. a alien male was so into a young human girl. I have my own thoughts. Style |
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Posted 12-05-2001 02:26 AM by healersbabe
Style won't you please share your thoughts too ?
quote: WOW. That was very well put [ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: healersbabe ] |
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Posted 12-05-2001 10:29 AM by avaSpeaks
Style, please post your thoughts! Shapeshifter, if you ask me, Liz's plans most of the time do not work out in the long run...but when Liz and Max work together, that's when the they have the best ladi plans...that just shows me that they think well, good, better, and best with each other...adn they need to be more honest with each other. Well, at least Liz needs to be more honest with Max, because one thing I can say about Max, anytime there was something going on or some new development or even crap with Tess, he told Liz, EVERYTHING...and so now Liz needs to do the same. She is great to help, but she has to realize that she is not alien; SO there is only so much she can and should do. And one more thing, Shapeshifterwhat did you mean about your last comment with SA and her not being in the show mentally and that's a good sign |
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Posted 12-05-2001 10:50 AM by elenac
Talking about characters acting out of character. Many noticed that when Khivar opened the wormhole Max didn’t use it as a means of transport to go back to Antar. But isn’t it strange that Khivar, who had Iz and the other two royals standing few yards away from the wormhole didn’t think of dragging them all into it and succeed in his plan to have them all back to Antar? Surely he has as many powers as Nikolas. Therefore Iz being able to push him into the wormhole, in such a simple way, was a tad bit unbelievable. I was liking Khivar but he now seems to me to be as bad a strategist as Zan was. And what about Tess’ deal and following storyline? Was it only meant to break Liz’s heart and stir our anger? Maybe we should all turn our attention to Nikolas, who seems to be the only one who has a point. And think that all that happened was Nikolas doing in agreement with the other 4 planet’s royals to de-throne Khivar and then be king himself, using Max as puppet and have his son reign once of age. ===================== Liz’s line to Maria “I’m committed to ….. Max. Good, bad and different I’m committed ....”. Doesn’t this sound like a wedding formula? What if Max healing her, back in the Pilot, was part of the Antarian wedding ceremony where the King, and only he can do it, heals the bride and makes a lifetime bond with her passing, on the occasion, part of the royal seal to her? This way, it could be explained Ava’s astonishment at Liz telling her about the healing, as she figured out what it really happened. And can also be explained her pain in saying how Zan never really loved her back, and was expecting someone else to walk into his life. Someone to whom he could give part of his royal seal. Max healing both Kyle and the kids may not necessarily lead to pass on the royal seal to them, since when Max healed Liz he did it out of love and an unrestrainable urge not to let her die and thus lose her. Again, also Nacedo was leaving silverhandprints over the body of those who killed and Tess was able to heal, even if she did it without leaving silver marks. It could also be that Tess, trying to make Max heal his son was a way to gain the royal seal. But it either needs to have both seals, the king and the queen’s, or it didn’t succeed as the child was sick and rejected him. This way Lonnie’s line to Ava in the car saying “Zan was my brother, Rath’s my lover and who are you to be here with us”, was a nasty way to remind Ava that Zan didn’t pass her the royal seal, leaving her to be just any ordinary woman. Whether or not Antar Ava had already received the royal seal so to have it in her essence, it could be that mom decided, when preparing the clones, to give his son the complete seal and leave to him the decision to give it to Ava again, once on Earth, when he was ready for it. |
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Posted 12-05-2001 12:02 PM by kla
Elenac -- I love your ideas about what happened when Max healed Liz. It sure would explain alot of Ava's comments. I find it truly amazing how the writers have given us all of these little things to speculate about, but they seem oblivious to our need to have them explained. The writers keep commenting about how they don't want the long story arcs, but they just continue to drop in comments, looks and scenery that beg for an explanation. If they started with the next episode it would probably take a full 22 this season just to answer all the questions we "fanatic" fans have. Personally, I'm ready to find out the real truth about everything. Especially since we may be faced with an end with no finale. Boo Hoo, I say... |
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Posted 12-05-2001 12:41 PM by avaSpeaks
Yes!!! I always say that Liz has received the Royal Seal, but I think that Liz was the special human to receive, hence certain aliens reactions to her. Larek, never once flinched at Liz being around Max...and his memory of Max and Tess, could had been implanted or it could had been just a memory that he was remembering, but he thought Liz was alien, remember??? And also, when he was talking to Max and the others about the alien/hybrid, he was looking at Liz, and talking to her as if she was a part of the Pod Squad... Kal, who mentioned that Max would left her behind and told Max that he slept with the enemy...and also, never menetioned Tess or called her the Queen, but had a look of shock on his face when he figured Max had slept with another alien/hybrid... Nickolas, saw Liz in his flash...also called Tess the "genocidal girlfriend", was is genocide, to kill the members of your own race...and what was Tess going to do, kill the members of the Pod Squad, plus she killed the Skins... Ava[/b]Knew she was important...enough said! The SkinsKnew that Liz was important enough to be there, so she must be killed because if she was with them, then you know she must know the inside scoop, and the Skin even thougth she was cute See, I think I got it figured out here...the aliens must know the real story, and know that Liz, or at least mating with humans is the truth...however since Zan was a dumb ass on Antar, they figure him to still be a dumb ass on Earth as well, hence him still hanging with Tess, who they know is not legit....see where I'm going. Hence CWreaction to Isabel saying that history always repeats itself and she smelled Max on Liz... |
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Posted 12-05-2001 06:16 PM by Zero
Hi all ! The Pilot is such an incredible episode!! (Though rewatching it makes me a bit sad due to the lost potential it created!! ) Two things I never noticed before - and I've watched this episodes so many times - were: 1) Liz used dye on Max's cells, and that is why they were green. I realize it is obvious now, but I saw that she only uses the clear liquid on her own cheek cells, but a green dye along with the clear liquid on Max's. As to Liz's plan not working - I guess it depends on with respect to "what" that is relevant. Does it throw Valenti off Max's trail completely - no - but it does create enough "doubt" (in legal terms) to make him realize that he has to let Max go. It also keeps the aliens from running (leaving town). So, her plan serves a purpose, and though it doesn't solve all the issues, it does "work" to a certain degree! And - at least she came up with a "Plan"! She was being pro-active, while everyone else was being reactive! (Sound familar!) And can we all agree what a "bit@#" Izabel and "jerk" Micheal were? I had forgotten that. And Maria and Alex are so wonderful - even Kyle is pretty sweet - poor Kyle! The thing that I loved about this episode was how - even with the focus on Max and Liz (which I prefer), all the characters get air time and work together to solve there problem. One of my favorite scenes - and there are many in this episode!! - was when Liz pulls out her list of questions and Max snickers because he knows that it is such a "Liz" thing to do!! And of course, there is the eternal question of "Why?" Max says "Because if was YOU!" to Liz when she asks why he jeapordized everything to save her!! (SUCH lost potential - and we even gave them our ideas - and what have we got ...!) Okay - I will be off to Nebraska tomorrow for the Cross Country Junior Olympics (my son is running in them), so hope you all have a great weekend, and I will be back to chat Monday! Zero |
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Posted 12-05-2001 08:52 PM by shapeshifter
One more Pilot comment: Was I the only one who was still sort of hoping that they were going to turn up the volume on the "We've got to get rid of her" line & incorporate it? For those of you who are new to this topic, the soundclip is here, and at The Archives Search Engine select "search EXACT phrase" and type "get rid of her" then click the search button. Also, I have uploaded the 1st Draft of The Pilot here, on healersbabe's server. It may take a little while to download as it's a PDF file. |
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Posted 12-05-2001 11:18 PM by GraceKel
But Shapeshifter you don't have to turn up the volume to hear it---I will admit it doesn't JUMP OUT but its there to be heard--I didn't turn up my set at all and I heard it LOL!!! Hey we barely lost any ratings at all considering this is the PILOT's 4th showing--that speaks volumes to me LOL!!!! The Pilot eppy was awesome, incredible,and I would recommend this episode to anyone and everyone. This show started out as Liz's journey and how the aliens affected her world, perhaps I am stubborn but I continue to view the show this way, its my main reason for watching. |
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Posted 12-06-2001 07:25 AM by GraceKel
Oh and Shapeshifter, not to beat a dead horse(LOL) but isn't it funny how KKB laughed about the horse references and yet they continue to incorporate this into the show---hmmmm--(and I still love my trojan horse theory btw LOL!!!) One other thing I will stand by as well--I posted before on this thread a long time ago that one of the reasons I thought for sure at one time that Liz would at some point be revealed as an alien is because if you watch almost EVERY single season1 tape--scenes in the crashdown----the soda fountain head displayed an alien head on it---it would always show a scene with Liz and another in it--with Liz always being in close proximity to the alien head with the other person being next to the plain black soda fountain head-----EXCEPT when a known alien was also there--then they would show two alien heads-----if I could have you guys watch tapes with me I could point this out quite clearly--its uncanny--its an ongoing theme throughout season1----has anyone taken the time to check this out? Now clearly in season2 and onward they seem to have ran away from this(ditched?) for whatever reason(is it because so many of you said oh I don't want Liz to be alien--maybe-or could it be some caught on too soon?-don't know--but it was a clear shift to me. One other thing I was thinking Michael says in reference to Vilondra and Kivar----"you are going to ride his handle bars all the way to Antar" This brings to mind the fact that ET was a gentle souled alien wasn't he? LOL!!! |
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Posted 12-06-2001 08:00 AM by GraceKel
Sorry I am feeling particularly chatty this morning, hope nobody minds my multi-posting. I have come up with several different scenarios for whats going on in the story that could be quite plausible but I think one of the reasons why the latest one--that Max is Kivar(who came back for Vilondra-Liz) I think would be good is because actually in this instance they could redeem every character---even Tess LOL!!!! Especially if Kyle was actually Zan---who Ava loved. Now if we go with the present story--keeping EOTW in mind(and all we learned about the dupes--of evil Lonnie and Rath killing Zan)---then it would appear that when FutureMax told Liz that Michael and Isabel had died---in this reality that would be a good thing--because they were enemies to Zan(Max)right? But this would leave Isabel and Michael lovers pretty disappointed--that they turned out to be the evil ones LOL!!! |
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Posted 12-06-2001 10:32 AM by GraceKel
Oh two things I forgot to mention in Behind the Music when Max asks Liz to return the pendant---clearing behind Max is the sign WHAT IS MAX HIDING? It seemed deliberate to me. And also mentioned the 4 photos--with the FIRST photo having another almost covering one underneath---and the Fourth photo being replaced by a plant? So what could this mean? At first glance you could say that Max's alien side Zan has completely obliterated gentle Max's human side that he has lost touch with OR that Max has been replaced by a GALAXY SUB OR my new theory that Kivar(the original gentle alien who came back to claim Vilondra) has taken on ZAN's persona because at this time thats who he believes he is. But what about the PLANT? Wouldn't this indicate that a PLANT is standing in for Michael? |
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Posted 12-06-2001 11:00 AM by avaSpeaks
I think another important thing is that all six members of the group were in the Pilot, as well. Alex was in the Pilot, but he died, yet Tess was not there.... I think that they were all meant to be there together, those friends, yet the "enemy" came and destroyed it, but they still had a back-up, Kyle. Kinda like the Charmed Ones could still be because of their long lost sister, Paige:triqueta: |
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Posted 12-06-2001 11:12 AM by elenac
Thanks Kla and avaSpeaks. [QUOTE]Originally posted by avaSpeaks: [QB]Kal never menetioned Tess or called her the Queen, but had a look of shock on his face when he figured Max had slept with another alien/hybrid... Exactly. ================= From TEOTW. Max to Liz: ..... and I know you think that I need to let you go ... for the sake of Michael, and Isabel, and my race ... so you went to Tess .... So probably Max will never ask Liz why she faked sex with Kyle. But Liz not telling him is something else altogether. [ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 12-06-2001 01:12 PM by avaSpeaks
Not only that, but let's see here. Remember in Max in the City, he took a test that revealed he was the true King, because the Royal Seal was on his brain. And Tess got nervous and jumpy...then when Lonnie told her it was just for Max, then she calmed down. Since Lonnie remembered Kivar, could she also remember something about Tess as well? Could it also be that everybody thought that Isabel betrayed her family, when maybe it was Ava that betrayed her "family", told Kivar what day they should actually attack and how and when to get inside the walls. And what to say to Vilondra to get her to open the door, like maybe Ava told him if he says if you say you come in peace then she will easily let you in But then the war broke out and the Royals died??? And then the Antar scientists, were going to clone the Royals, or at least the King, so he can come back and reclaim his throne??? The scientists, went to Earth and in order for them to hid the Royals, they thought that they should mate with humans, adn the King's Earth bride would be the one with the capacity to receive the Royal Seal, and thus be true to the King's heart and have his best intentions in mind, vs. Ava, who they knew betrayed the King, but said nothing so they could continue with their projects. But Kivar found out and then as a back-up plan, made the deal with Nesedo??? So they either added Ava/Tess to make sure that she would betray him again, or he told her that this was her duty...or told her that she had to prevent the King from mating with his Earth bride, for if they have a child, that child would receive the memories of all the events and destroy Kivar reign, and possibly them as well?? So Tess tried all she could to do her job, and Ava the Dupe, recalled the memory of being told that Liz, or the Earth bride would be important, hence her reaction to her. So Tess makes sure that she goes with the plan...in the ist timeline, Tess plays as if she is heartbroken, but again like on Antar, she finds Kivar and tells him EXACTLY where Max and the others are, and that's the real reason why FMax and FLiz were not ready for their attack. And so when Lonnie wanted to go home then, maybe that's why Tess jumped up so quickly and mentioned Ava?? Becuase she couldn't leave any bread trails behind her??? I know it's long-winded, that's the LizMyth side of me, but what do you think??? |
Posted 12-06-2001 07:21 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Au contraire, mon ami, I figured that Shiri is still into the show mentally, as indicated by her comments that Liz should take the relationship with Max to the next level. I was thinking that she wouldn't say something like that if she didn't care about the show's outcome--but maybe that's a big assumption on my part.
quote:Hmmm...maybe Antarian males turn into weaklings when they are in love or mate or near the one they love. quote:Very interesting. From MITC: LONNIE: No summit until you meet the emissary. You gotta pass the test first. TESS: Test? LONNIE: Not you. Just him. They wanna make sure you're the real king before they sit down, but don't worry, you'll pass. Tess seemed worried that she might have to take a test which she knew she couldn't pass.
quote:GK, Thanks for posting this! I had forgotten. It made my day at work when I read it. And I liked the rest of your post too. Maybe the alien symbols with Liz could signify the Royal Seal? And that is too funny about the handlebars. Kind of fits with my idea of Kvar being a wimp when Izzy's around. Okay, this post is getting too long. More to come a la GK style. |
Posted 12-06-2001 07:27 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Gonna have to check that one out!
quote:Maybe it's just Max hiding behind the tree still (with regards to his dad)? quote:ITA!
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 12-06-2001 08:23 PM by Mavonne
Wow, you guys and gals are amazing with the ideas you come up with! shapeshifter, thanks for the tissues! I just hope there's still a chance for a fourth season. Thanks to the one who typed UPN's addy and contact in Cali. I was walking along after work one day going "do-do-doooo!" and ran smack into...the Philly UPN station office! Well now! I should walk right in and make an appointment with the Folks In Charge and tell them, "I must have more Roswell! Now!... ...er...please." Reggie says: quote: Could this be true?? The WB might have known what they were doing?? |
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Posted 12-06-2001 10:20 PM by Argo
I just watched (again) the Roswell pilot. "Liz's importance to Alien Mythology" couldn't be closer to the truth. The chemistry between JB & SA is amazing. But look at the connection Max had with Liz at such a young age. Max and Liz were so mean't to be. Then came Season 2..but that's for another post! Anyways...I want more connection with Max & Liz...I just hope we get that with Season 3. Argo "It was you" |
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Posted 12-06-2001 10:57 PM by Style
It was you, the quote that brought me in. Three (3) words. Three aliens' trapped on Earth. Uneven numbers. My belief, the Antarian scientists and the Antarians' mythologist had some kind of faith in sending the essence of the three (3) pods to earth. As usual, the forces against them, also had a plan. Khivar, wormwhole. He/she knew about this. The Granoith(sp?), still holds an importance to Antar. Liz is the Key to the future of Antar, and I am a strong believer with this theory. Sci-Fi, I guess, at least, opens ones minds. |
Posted 12-06-2001 11:04 PM by shapeshifter
quote: ITA! |
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Posted 12-06-2001 11:13 PM by GraceKel
Hey Liz Mythers anyone else notice when Jessie carries Isabel over threshold aptE is across the hall and they are in apt D====ED hmmm??? |
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Posted 12-06-2001 11:18 PM by Style
GraceKel, never paid attention to It's Me eppys. I find it non sci-fi, even with the dupes and all. What I do find, sci-fi and all, is Liz Parker. Style |
Posted 12-07-2001 05:54 AM by elenac
quote: As a woman I could even find this sweet. Considering what Lonnie told us about Vilandra: - she betrayed her brother - Rath was her betrothed - Khivar was her lover - Nikolas had secret meetings with her. What a woman! [ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 12-07-2001 10:45 AM by avaSpeaks
I totally agree...Max and Liz need to connect with each other before the show is over...and then they need to really talk things out before and after the connections. They need to make a commitment to each other that they will go on a pathwith each other, kinda like courting. With the path, they need to take long walks and talk with each other, and do some connection excercises. And then they need to seperate and re-build the freinship, all at the same time of re-connecting. So Liz won't feel like she is stuck with Max and can't get out. And so Max can have time to relax, and slow down and heal...also to catch up and just start preparing himself to become a better aman and leader, not King, a leader, and to get a good education so he can be ready to provide for Liz when they start their home... And this will also be a good chance for max to redeem himself, give Liz time to heal over what happened, and prove himself worthy of her friendship...and this time let the audience see it... And then make Liz fall madly in love with him again, so the next time a cracker-boy comes gives her advice on something that he does not know the hwole truth about or for some didn't ask for, she will be stronger to trust heart and talk to Max about it. |
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Posted 12-09-2001 10:02 AM by Nemo
Here's another image for the 3+1 files. (It was mentioned before, but now the screencaps are up. Besides, this thread could use a boost.) IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/306/tn-306-035.jpg [from TH&TH, crashdown.com.] Edited to say: it looks as if they're conserving bandwidth by not allowing the larger images to be posted here, so you'll have to access it via the Episodes page. Specifically: http://www.crashdown.com/screencaps/306/ --------- When I sent site support, screencaps were still available for posting.... [ 12-09-2001: Message edited by: Nemo ] |
Posted 12-09-2001 11:09 AM by Reggie
quote: In Shiri's own words: "I know she's still a virgin," says Appleby. "He's not, he slept with Tess, so Liz is the last virgin on the TV show. I was talking about it the other day in front of the writers -- time to make some changes." "Changes" - in her beliefs? her "stances on life"? The "real" Liz is a little more substantial, I think. GraceKel: So what is Tess... a potted plant? When I sent Tabasco, there were FOUR podsters! |
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Posted 12-09-2001 11:49 AM by GraceKel
Hey Reggie---no I was talking about SYMBOLISM here with the last photo being changed to a PLANT---and since the last one mentioned was Isabel's betrothed and your brothers second in command, well I didn't think we were referring to Tess unless Isabel was betrothed to Tess---I have to admit, the thought did cross my mind in FOURSQUARE in the EVANS kitchen he!he!!!!! |
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Posted 12-09-2001 02:34 PM by shapeshifter
I think that maybe the plant in front of the pictures indicates that it's time to go back to hiding behind the tree. ******************** I went to a Christmas Advent service today, and was fascinated by the parallel's in Biblical prophesy and the Alien Mythology. For instance, because Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son, God made his offspring as numerous as the stars in the heaven. FM & FLiz gave up their future together to save the world, and now it looks like things will work out for them anyway. Also, in the original Christmas story, an angel comes to a confused teenage girl and her equally confused finacee--a lot like FM's visit. Finally, King Herod learned from the 3 wise men of the star that led to the annointed one. The 3 remaining dupes were alerted by the orbs going off, then they shared the news with Nicholas/Kvar. |
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Posted 12-09-2001 03:24 PM by elenac
Some specs after MitC aired yesterday in Italy and I had the chance to connect . In Rath and Lonnie’s place there are only three pods. What if that was meant to tell us that also Ava was introduced later in the NY pod squad, just like Tess? Let’s see why, seeing things from the point of view of the one who sent them to Earth, mom: The fact that they are so different with respect to the two trios, is good as per point 2 above. Now, why both Zan and Max have this innate aversion to their former bride? One of the orbs has been found by M/L buried in the desert since 1947, while the second one was at the FBI’s and nobody knew how they worked. From mom-o-gram: Our enemies have come to Earth. You will know them only by the evil within. Learn enough to use yours skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy so that you can come back and free us. And that I may once again hold you both in my arms. I live for that moment. Help us. I love you. What if mom is talking of the R4? Terrifying and yet sign of deep love. That of a mother. But what if the first step of Max’s growth is healing Liz? This way he chooses her for life and doesn’t allow anybody else to make this important choice for himself . When Tess arrives, Max and Liz are already lifebound and the only way she has to have back her place by Max, is to give him another reason to love her, a son. But we know what happened and she loses Max’s love forever. On the other hand Ava loses her Zan and blames herself for it, as she isn’t able to contrast both Rath and Lonnie. In MitC, the scene in the streets of NY after the meeting when Rath and Lonnie try to kill Max, is almost identical to the one of Zan’s death. What’s new about it is Liz’s appearance that saves Max. But it’s interesting to understand how we get to this point. Ava feeling deeply guilty about Zan’s death, tells Liz about Lonnie and Rath’s intention to also kill Max. But this isn’t enough because Max needs immediate help. Ava, after Liz told her about being healed and knowing the real meaning of it, by an impulse of generosity, suggests her, without explaining why (she’s got pride after all), that Liz can help since she’s changed. Infact Max and Liz, after the healing, are connected for life and she is the only one who can reach him and save him, as it happens. And it’s her who has this power. Infact when Iz and Liz are trying to contact Max, Iz opens her eyes as to mean that she’s not part of the connection. Ava’s behaviour is, in my opinion, a way to recognize Liz as the true bride. She’s symbolically handing her crown into Liz’s hands and at the same time fulfilling mom’s task, that to get rid of the “evil within”. This’s partially easy for her as her Zan died in front of her eyes and she wasn’t able to help him. More difficult will be Tess’ task if she’ll come back, as she’ll have to face sooner or later what she already knows, that Max and Liz are inseparable and if she wants to get rid herself of the “evil within” she’ll have to give up Max and being the queen, like Ava already did. |
Posted 12-09-2001 03:37 PM by elenac
quote:
I would add, starting from Rath’s evident subdual to Lonnie, that it may be that what Michael remembers when he meets Khivar, is what he first believed, in Antar, before the situation got dramatic. As to say that the kids are starting to remember, but very very little at a time. Probably his first reaction was of disbelief of Vilandra’s betrayal. It could help re-watch Nikolas screen time starting from Harvest up to MitC. In WO I sensed something that I then lost. I’ll come back to this topic if I find anything interesting. ========================= Yes, definitely. |
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Posted 12-09-2001 06:58 PM by Vihmakass
To honor Pilot... When Liz get shot in cafe Max realized that bc of his attidude and behaving so low, so behind of tree -he might lost something importand in his life. And then he comes back to her and gives her his soul too, bc he wants her know who is this person and how he feels about this, letting her know it wasnt just some thing for him but this has meaning to him. |
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Posted 12-10-2001 11:22 AM by avaSpeaks
I think that tommorrow will be very interesting to watch.... Personally, I think that Tess and Kyle would had been great together, she came in his life when she needed a freind the most, I also think that if Tess had completely gave up Max, then Max would had been more willing to be her friend, and have the four of them work together... But everybody, inlcuding Max had some kind of aprehension or mistrust of Tess.... Liz, Max, and Isable were all scared of Tess...Max was scared of going into the unknown with Tess in ITBITL, and Tess never felt quilty about Alex, because in that very same conversation, she asked Max, did things slowed down because of what happened with Alex? That was so insensitive, and yet, she was the one that killed him, she didn't care about killing Alex, a human...because as she stated to Max in Departure, that doens't matter And he didn't matter, because she told Kyle that he was her favortie human, and in her Prom book, she declared down with humans, down with the American government Tess was no good to begin with, what's her MO??? We don't know... |
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Posted 12-10-2001 11:35 AM by kla
Hi all! Just want to make a comment before we rewatch TEOTW episode with regard to Liz. It really seems strange to me that the writers, who seem to agree that Liz is very smart, have not done anything to clear up the Future Max issues. If Liz is really smart, why hasn't she questioned the turn of events that led to Tess leaving? She knows that in the future the enemy can't be defeated because Tess is gone. And now Tess is gone. Not for the same reason... but gone. And yes the change of events could have changed the future enemy attack, but if she's so smart, she should be really concerned that none of that scenario has been changed. Why haven't the writers made her think about what's happened and have her bring it all up to Max. After all, they could still be in for some major trouble and it would be to Max's advantage to know in advance that their powers may fall short. If Liz is really important to the alien's existence/future, you would think they would have Liz be a little quicker to pick up on possible problems. It seems like Liz is dropping the ball on this one. Especially now that they are supposedly back together, she should be just a little concerned that the future she was warned about might still be a possibility. Just my thoughts. Thanks. |
Posted 12-10-2001 12:31 PM by avaSpeaks
quote:
How come they haven't done an eppy yet, where they questioned if the baby is real or a mindwarped??? How come they didn't have Mike or Maria, or Liz, who usually brings up these kinds of questions about Tess up??? How come they haven't wrote Liz and Max having a heart to heart, tehy didn't have to be in a relationship in the beginning, they really didn't...people would had been just as fine with seeing Liz and Max work out their problems and work their way back to each other...in fact, I know that plenty of fans and critics would had prefered this method...including myself. |
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Posted 12-10-2001 01:57 PM by StephStephSteph
Hi to all the RBI Just coming out of lurkdom to say hi. Haven't had much time to keep up, but I'm still alive. Keep mything.. I'll eventually have time to it all! [ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: StephStephSteph ] |
Posted 12-10-2001 01:59 PM by Reggie
quote: WORD on the relationship between Tess & Kyle. Sweet & spicy; just the way we like it. And yes, everyone was wary of Tess at first. (EdR does "creepy" so well!) They thought she was "Nacedo", who was, as Max pointed out at the time, a killer. (He was, too!) But, when Max said "She's one of us", and the Mom-o-gram and cave wall symbols etc. confirmed it, that should have been the end of it. Tess should have been certified good; a full member of the Pod Squad. Instead, we get the rabbit-from-a-hat "Deal" between Mr. H and Kivar, begining with killing off one of the best-loved characters (Alex). Was it a mindwarp, by Nikolas at the end of MitC? Was it real? What it was, either way, was a piece of carp. And so the writing goes downhill... Hi, StephStephSteph! Long time, no post. Come back, or if you're disgusted enough, visit us on the CHADs or Critics. [ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
Posted 12-10-2001 02:17 PM by avaSpeaks
quote:
No, but really that would had been a good storyline, like I would had love for Tess to had done what she did and the only one that is still willing to be her freind is Kyle....that would be very pretty, and then maybe have her betray him as well...set up some interesting plot lines. And they didn't accept Tess as a freind, to me, I htin they did it because she was one of them, as an alien, but she was never part of the freind circle, she hung around and they let her, but if they had accepted her, then Max wouldn't had been scared of going into the unknown with her, Isabel would had developed the close relationship that I thought they were going to start with her, and we should had had some meaniful conversations with her and Alex, Maria... They didnt' accept, even Kyle had aprenshion for her after she killed Alex, he didn't know why but he felt it.... It was only after the love of his life, Liz Parker made Max feel like it was over, that's when he let Tess kiss him, and then he still pulled away from Tess after they had sex, unless she brougth up the baby. Tess was no good, period. She was only good with Kyle |
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Posted 12-10-2001 07:58 PM by shapeshifter
You guys are reminding me of that moment in TEOTW when Liz goes to Tess to 'help' her win Max. Tess and Kyle were just about to take things to the next level when Liz showed up at that 'surgically precise' moment--designed my the mysterious Serena. What were Serena's (Liz's "friend") motives besides saving the world? Saving an off-spring of Max & Tess? Last week we saw a Liz plan that didn't quite work out right (Valenti did not go for it). Now we have TEOTW. Where do we go from here? Here's the link to our discussions of the first airing of TEOTW: Thread 14 Here's a quote from it by Starbox, who no longer posts on the boards quote: [ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 12-10-2001 11:35 PM by Vihmakass
...what if Srena not trying save Max/Tess heir but tryed distract Kyle/Tess make heir? Now Max is sleeping with other hybrid - what makes Kal surprised and disgusted.Why? [ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Vihmakass ] |
Posted 12-11-2001 08:36 AM by StephStephSteph
quote: Hi Reggie |
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Posted 12-11-2001 08:43 AM by Alexis
Okay, last night I had a very vivid dream and it had to do with Liz Myth which is strange since I haven’t posted in about a week. Here goes…. Vilondra (Isazombie as I like to call her) is by a lake and Max tells Liz to come with him. He tells Liz that he’s discovered some interesting things about their alien past. He tells her that he was in love with Vilondra (I know, it sounds sick, but let me explain) and that they weren’t really brother and sister. That is why Vilondra is with him on earth. It was Tess who was the betrayer, but it was found out too late. Liz questioned why it was that Max didn’t fall in love with Isabel, as hybrids. He answered that his bond with her (Liz) was stronger and that he only saw Isabel as a sister in this life. At this point Max and Liz are standing about 25 yards from Vilondra who is in a trance-like state. Max explains to Liz that he realized that all of the royal 4 are hard-coded to not be able to kill him, just like Kal couldn’t kill him. To show Liz what he means, he starts to fire blasts of energy at Vilondra who puts her hand up mindlessly and fires back in his direction, but all of the blasts miss him…and Liz. You don’t notice it doesn’t hit her until Liz points it out. Max tells her he realized that she was protected as well. That she is special that way as well. Liz is curious as to why the blasts don’t affect either her or Max, so she does some experiments in a lab to find out if there is anything in their cells that causes this. Of course, she finds that their cells have a special coating on them which deflects energy blasts (in my dream I had a special name for it, can’t remember now). But basically this protection expands out from their cells and it creates a bubble of sorts. What was the point of me writing all this? Well, it shows what I think subconsciously: 1) JB and KH are too close in the show (not so much this season, but the incestous creepy-crawlees are still with me) I just want to add that I agree that Liz should be questioning the future implications of Tess leaving, as someone above noted. There are a lot of things the writers are ignoring and they are really letting writer’s gold slip through their fingers. |
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Posted 12-11-2001 11:09 AM by avaSpeaks
Alexis to piggy-back on what you said... JB and SA chemistry still shines thru, and the critics always mentiones the chemistry between Max and Liz, and then the rest of the show... And since KKB loves KH so much and thinks she such a great actress I guess he thinks she should be the lead, she threathen to quit aftet the end of the first season anyway and then the writers DAvid Nutter and Thania St. John, who used to write for Buffy the Vampire Slayer(for god's sake)left, 2 writers, with the exception of the person who wrote Sexual Healing, that knew Max and Liz and their love The show is about 3 things in my mind... 1)The amazing love between Max and Liz. 2)Liz as the small town girl and big time heroine. 3)Liz Parker allowing us as the audience see the show thru her eyes and allowing us to see and hear about how she feels about the TRUE love of her live, beautiful alien hybrid, Max Evans. And that's it, the show is not about aliens and humans working together, that's the sidebar, that's the B-Plot..and it's not about the so-called destiny of The Royal Four, who gives a damn about that??? It's okay if the Royal Four sub-plot was played to include LIz Parker, or if they included Liz Parker as the 5th element, or if they played out a storyline where Ava is the real fourth and the pods were switched, she is accepted into the fold and gives over Liz the rightful title of Queen, and then both Tess and Kivar tries to kill her, with the help of Lonnie and Nickolas, now that would be exciting... Or have Nickolas go after the real future Queen, have both Tess and Liz standing there and then everybody hears this so they hide Tess, only to find that they kidnapped Liz, because Kivar and Nickolas both knew something that everybody else didn't know.... That's the way they could had incorparated everybody, so people who liked Tess would have had her, there would had been sci-fi, and Max could act like a real King and save his future bride.... See how simple that is? [ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: avaSpeaks ] |
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Posted 12-11-2001 12:34 PM by StephStephSteph
Quick question - is Roswell on tonight and if so what eppy? Sincerly, |
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Posted 12-11-2001 03:05 PM by Alexis
Yes, they are playing EOTW. |
Posted 12-11-2001 03:32 PM by Vihmakass
quote: ITA! [ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Vihmakass ] |
Posted 12-11-2001 08:35 PM by Reggie
quote: This week, a repeat of TEOTW. Anyone know what they're doing on Christmas night? |
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Posted 12-11-2001 09:31 PM by vox humana
Hi! I've been lurking forever and have been fascinated by the theories surrounding our Liz. Is it me or is the writing lost a little of it's edge? It seems in the effort to package everything up, the writers have lost the sense of mystery and everything is too neat. I freaked out that Khivar shows up and all that happens in the end is that he gets sucked up in the warpy-thing. What is THAT all about? :rolleyes Are they trying to answer all of the questions that was posed in this topic (so they are reading it!) to clean up the loose ends? vox humana |
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Posted 12-11-2001 09:56 PM by shapeshifter
About the previews: I'm guessing the little boy's father was the grandson of Max's clone. Vote for Roswell here: |
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Posted 12-11-2001 10:06 PM by GraceKel
Hey Fellow Mythers--just finished watching EOTW eppy again--and I try to give credit where its due, I thought this episode was outstanding and struck such an emotional chord with the audience, but again to be left hanging this long, it seems the writers missed the window of emotional payoff with this? What are they afraid of, that they will run out of storylines or something LOL? Well you all know the DUPES introduction was not at all to my liking but assuming they may have been legitimate as I look at FMax telling Liz that Isabel died two weeks ago and Michael died 25 minutes ago--if Michael and Isabel turned out to be anything like Lonnie and Rath were portrayed--perhaps that was a good thing? I guess this is one of the reasons I didn't care for the DUPES being introduced in the first place-and yes I know you can say well they have to overcome those flawed alien tendencies but geez I hope there is more to it than that--I hope LOL!!! |
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Posted 12-12-2001 08:21 AM by Alexis
Reggie—I thought “Samuel Rising” was formerly called “Tale of Two Parties” or is that the ep right after SR? |
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Posted 12-12-2001 09:04 AM by Zara
Warning, this is a bit negative... About EOTW:
quote: I couldn't agree with you more. I watched EOTW last night and was still heartsickened by it. I've yet to see the big reason why that HAD to happen. I know there are a lot of speculations we can make about "why, why, why," but we haven't ever seen an absolute reason played out in the series. It was just hearbreaking to watch it all again, and this time especially Alex at the fortune teller's.
quote: I'm with you all the way. I hated the dupes. To think they wasted so many episodes on that! Of course, we did start to see Liz "grow" in MITC. I'm so disheartened by the way this season is going... I want to see Liz' ultimate significance revealed in a jaw-dropping kind of way by the end of this show, which may not be that long away! Wouldn't hurt to see Max's character clarified either (Great and benevolent king? Alien vs. Human path? Kid stuff...) Give me a big old flash of light and Future Max showing Liz that it's all worked out and happily everafter awaits! Sorry to be so negative, but I'm to the point now where I only watch episodes once! I've almost stopped taping the show, but not yet. That said, I don't see much reason to rewatch episodes for clues anymore... there just don't seem to be any. |
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Posted 12-12-2001 10:13 AM by avaSpeaks
First of all, looking back on EoTW made me think alot about Tess, the way she looked at Kyle was two-fold for me when she talked about lamp-trimming. At first, I thought what they would or could have had was intense, the way Kyle was looking at her when he said, Your Kidding spoke volums to me as how he was beginning to feel about her... But knowing what we now know, I think when Tess looked at him that way, I think she looked at him as part of the plan, like maybe she could get Kyle to get her pregnant and get him to somehow get everybody else to go home, i really believe that Tess had been sceming all along, well she had to for it to end up like it did in Departure... I think that in the first timeline, Kyle would had been her pawn, if Liz hadn't came to the door. I say that because the future begin to change once Liz saw FMax at the door. But because of the change, Tess took Alex, instead of probably taking Kyle, who just had too many connections to the town, and the group. So these are my final conclusions: 1) Max never loved Tess. He didn't even notice her and she had to have Liz's help to even sit down with her. And it was only all of the emotional build-up, the final straw where Tess was able to sink her claws into our Max. 2) The reason, I believe that the enemy was able to come on so strong with The Pod Squad because Tess went back and told Kivar where everybody was and everything about them. She fooled FMax and FLiz!!! They thought she was heartbroken, but she only pretened to be heartbroken. In reality, she probably was pissed off because she knew that her plan to get the Royals back on antar would not work anymore...because Liz and Max had cemented, they had became life-bond partners and she couldn't stop that, nor change it...thus she left and betrayed everyone. 3) This is true because Tess's plan would had been the same in each timeline. It's just that with this new timeline, Max and Liz help break each other up, and Tess was just able to move in on things a whole lot quicker, they were not as strong and the enemy was able to come in and swoop right down on them. 4) Max and Tess had sex. Max and Liz will cement. This is a very crucial difference. FMax said as we grew closer...meaning that Liz and Max were on the right path. Also, Fmax or present Max would nver love Tess, that's why he had to makeLiz make him fall out of love, because he knew that he could never do it himself...she's he's soulmate. So therefore, Tess could never be the one Max, not in this timeline or before. 5) Hence that's why Tess asked Max why couldn't he ever love her like that, even though she was his "wife", and remember, in the cut script of EoTW, when Tess suggested that they all hold hands in the Granolith chamber to see if they could make a connection with it, they all agreed except Max. He asked her was that something that Nesedo came up with, and she said that no, it was her idea. And when she suggested they all hold hands, Max was so uncomfortable that he had to let her hand go. Tess got upset that he sang to Liz on her balcony, but couldn't concentrate on things that were more important, like connecting with each other. She was so hell-bent on making sure they all connect. Why so it would be easier to get them home and to their deaths. All the "I hate my life" and grieving for Alex was all an act. So with this I think will have to happen to Max and Liz in order for them to defeat the enemy and grow stronger. Max and Liz will re-connect, and they will cement, and become life-bonded partners. It's just going to take more time now and more healing. Those are my conclusions and I'm sticking to it! |
Posted 12-12-2001 10:39 AM by StephStephSteph
quote: ITA! I was SO excited that Khivar was FINALLY coming to town and it pretty much concludes all in one eppy? Who didn't want to see the reaction Khivar would have had if he saw LIZ!?! I know the entire eppy pretty much focused on Khivar taking Iz/Vilondra back to Antar, but I certainly would have loved some more interaction between Khivar and Max/Zan and the rest of the Pod Squad. Would Khivar had given some insight into "Liz's changing" (as Ava did) once he found out Max had healed her? QUESTIONS! I haven't had a chance to rewatch TEWOTW yet, but love the comments. I, too, have that "torn feeling" of this eppy. It's my favorite episode, yet I can barely make myself watch it because of the emotions it brings up. I don't know why this HAD to happen and that'd inevitable "why why why" question we all have is just TOO much at times to take. I'm looking forward to next week's NEW eppy (whatever it's called ) and here's hoping it's as good as last year's XMas eppy! |
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Posted 12-12-2001 10:53 AM by Zero
Hi All - I've been out - and to be honest lurking with not much positive to contribute. I also screwed up and accidentally taped GG and Smallwille instead of UPN/Roswell which I was taping solely for the previews - so I missed them. TBH though I'm a bit disheartened to hear about a shorter than hoped season that the boredom I've felt for Season 3. Also - just thinking about TEOTW makes me sad about the lost potential!! But you have all been more articulate than me in stating this. I have hope - eternally rings true - but after watching GG (which always makes me smile ) and Smallwille, which doesn't have the L/M chemistry (but then neither does Roswell anymore ) but is fairly well written, and interesting - and realizing that Roswell has so few episodes left to wrap it all up makes me soooooooo sad. I've tried not to be spoiled this season - but I may head over there just to see if there is any chance that alllllll the CHADS will be dealt with. I have to believe that the Pilot and TEOTW were shown for a reason! Zero |
Posted 12-12-2001 12:31 PM by Zara
quote: Exactly. IMO it takes alot of nerve to show those two particular episodes (of the many others they could have chosen instead of EOTW) if they're not going to respond to them overtly. Come on, have a little mercy! One more thing, Avaspeaks, was it you who made the comments about tess "sinking her claws into Max?" Sorry if it was someone else... Anyway, it was literal wasn't it! When they were on the park bench the way she put her hand on his shoulder was exactly like she was sinking her claws into him! You know, WE know more about the extent of the mind warp than Max and Liz do... I wonder if they'll ever realize the extent to which Max's behavior last spring was a result of tess' manipulation. |
Posted 12-12-2001 12:54 PM by avaSpeaks
quote: I meant that Tess is only able to get to Max when Liz pushes him away...it happened in the Prom, when Liz made Max think that it was over, if Max wouldn't had thought that it was over, he wouldn't had let Tess kiss him. But he was still Liz's freind. And when Liz, again, left Max behind to find Alex's killer and left him standing there, on top of the fact the Mike and Isabel were not on his side, plus Alex had died, he felt like his family had left him...he never considered Tess his family but she was there and she was comforting him, saying **** like I'll always be here he looked at her and looked back on how she was always there, and so he felt lost and he so he slept with her, he wanted to forget. He felt like since he lost the Love of His Life, he might as well give up and just give in to some destiny that he didn't even want...when he lost Liz, he felt like he lost life...it's simple, and I'm pretty sure that we all have allowed something or someone negative to sink our claws into us. That what happened to Max. Not to make this a habit but in a spoiler line from the upcoming eppy, he tells Liz, "You are my family!" And then remember last X-Mas, who was Liz sitting next too, there was an open space between her and Isabel, and then Max went over that space and sat on the other side of Liz, like she was part of the family...maybe the open space was symbolic of the next member of the family, Jesse, hence the open space next to Isabel... Liz is his balance, his life, his soulmate, his family, his hope, and his future. That's what I meant with that comment! |
Posted 12-12-2001 01:46 PM by Roswell 10/2/00
quote: Well said Avaspeaks It's time for Max and Liz to come home to eachother and to their family!!! [ 12-12-2001: Message edited by: Roswell 10/2/00 ] |
Posted 12-12-2001 02:14 PM by StephStephSteph
quote: I actually thought they showed these too in a last attempt to gain some more viewers. These two eppy's are by far the BEST 2 of Roswell, IMHO. Maybe they thought it could draw some fans in and keep Roswell alive for a little bit longer? Maybe. |
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Posted 12-12-2001 02:31 PM by elenac
I think I know why Liz is not telling Max about FMax. Here’s my theory. FMax goes to Liz with two clear messages: she has to stop him from loving her because this will cause Tess to leave and thus their enemies to take over and kill them all. He also comes from the future, time travelling with the Granilith. When the Dupes come to Roswell to convince Max to go to the summit, Lonnie manipulates the situation so that Max brings also Tess. When Max and Tess were in Lonnie and Rath’s place, if you check Tess the very moment Max tells Lonnie he doesn’t have the Granilith, you will see that she was about to spill the news. And afterwards during the 20 minutes break from the summit, when he doesn’t know what to decide, Tess only tells him that she remember he was a great man and king and that she knows he will take the right decision. What happens next in Roswell is Alex’s death, the Tex and the baby storyline and Max and Liz are as far apart as possible. After Departure they are together again, but are concentrated on Max’s son quest. And this emotional storyline mislead us too. Let’s go back to FMax and PLiz. Max, Iz, Michael and Tess all know about the Granilith. And the Granilith in 2014 has been developed into a time machine, presumably by Serena and Liz. So FMax’s choice to come in that precise timeline is meant for two reasons: Mom-o-gram gives us an info that may sound of no value but which has great value. Ava was Zan’s young bride, what if mom meant that she was inexperienced, naïve, see her part when she was about to spill the truth on the Granilith to Lonnie. And see also how she practically tells Max that it was Liz’s set up to bring them together in TEOTW. What if her guilt, back on Antar, was to reveal to the wrong person the potential of the Granilith, thus stirring up all conspiracies around his family and lead them to death. Probably the Granilith was a revolutionary means of transport and Zan was planning to give the opportunity to his people to take advantage of it. We know that present day Antarians don’t space travel but abduct humans from afar. Larek says about this: Holding onto these bodies isn’t easy. In fact, it’s chewing up huge amounts of our resources ..... What if the person Ava spilled the news was Vilandra Now, why the enemies, even if they get hold of the Granilith, can’t go back to Antar and distruct the R4 essences and stop them from leaving for Earth? From TEOTW, FMax and PLiz: Meaning that the Granilith has been modified here on Earth, on Antar was meant for something else, thus nothing that will lead to the modification of the Granilith can be changed, not the healing, not everybody knowing it, not Liz being Max’s lifebond etc. The only thing Fmax and Liz could modify was to keep Tess among them with her own identity, Max’s partner, and avoid that she spills the location of the Granilith and at the same time be with all the others to eventually fight the enemies back to keep it (see Harvest and her fireball). So to find Tess is also important to have the Granilith back. Liz, on her part, is not telling Max about FMax because she is on this quest with him to find his son, which now is more important for them than the Granilith and as far as she/we know it left with Tess and isn’t so important to bring up. She will eventually recall the story at the right time or if they’ll need again to develop the Granilith as a time machine. A huge Bravo! to healersbabe, Liz is not the Granilith but she’s the nearest thing to it. She’s the keeper of the secret and probably its future developer. |
Posted 12-12-2001 08:00 PM by Zero
quote: Hi Steph!! I too think these are two of the best episodes - but now - looking back and knowing that the huge potential that they created has never been tapped into makes me sad !! And to think that to this day, Liz has never dealt with the FMax issue with Max, Max has never learned more about his "wedding" vision from VLV, AND the great and glorious Granolith turned out to be nothing more than a powerful transportation pod! Oh well - I guess I'm also frustrated because of all the incredible storylines that people on this thread came up with that tied everything together so well - that I meticulously documented and made sure wound up in the hands of an executive producer - and what do we get - Tex, the search for Spawn and Iz's rushed marriage. And little of the true Liz/Max interaction that made the Pilot and TEOTW 2 of the most fantastic episodes! Zero |
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Posted 12-12-2001 11:06 PM by shapeshifter
It's almost midnight here, so behr with my ramblings if you will--I will check back tomorrow. ITA with whoever outlined Max's reason's for sleeping with Tess, specifically that Liz pushed him to do it. The reason the dreamers can't accept this is because 1) Liz herself can't accept it (even though she does it) and 2) it's not the story they would have written. I think the reason TPTB aired TEOTW was in part to make it clear that Max doesn't need to apologize since he was forced into it. Just my opinion, popular or not. Now I'm thinking the TEOTW may be sooner than we think in the world outside of Roswell. And being the metaphysical-thinking fool that I am, I am looking for a pattern in Roswell. So, I guess the real world will not end, but there will be much regret of what could have been, but had to be forfeited because there is evil in the world. |
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Posted 12-12-2001 11:16 PM by GilrozGirl
Okay, this is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a couple of threads now. Something just dawned on me in regard to Tess being important to the other three aliens, yet being revealed as evil and leaving in 'Departure'. What if her only importance was in 'Wipeout', when she destroyed most of the Skins? That if she hadn't, something else would have occurred that would ultimately lead to, of course, the end of the world in 2014? This theory isn't exactly making me feel better, since if that's the case, Max and Liz could have just gotten back together (after a long talk, obviously) way before Alex's death and the Tex would ever have taken place, but, hey... ~Gilroz Girl --- |
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Posted 12-12-2001 11:19 PM by shapeshifter
Gilroz Girl, welcome. Just popping back in to say ITA with that theory and have for a long time. So, since 2 of us think it, it holds more water. |
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Posted 12-13-2001 01:34 AM by elenac
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 12-13-2001 02:57 AM by elenac
[ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 12-13-2001 03:54 AM by mezz
Just popped in to say that I have just watched ITLAITB for the first time. Man what a sad episode. I have been hearing people talk about it for almost a year now. Contrary to popular opinion I thought this was one of the most powerful and moving episodes to date. Don't hate me. It struck me that so much was made of Tess leading Max (as has been said before). Even when the 4 are walking and Iz says maybe Liz is right, Max looks at Tess to see what she thinks and she just slightly shakes her head. I thought the way Tess kept appearring was reminiscent of EOTW when she found Max in the park and said 'Do you want me to leave?' I thought it was as we were being told, this is the way it is now after what Liz did. I don't quite think that Tess mind warped Max (thought maybe in later eps it becomes more clear) I think she just took hold of a fragile mind and pushed. Tess said that if he woke up he would accept his alien side and all that it entails. I interpretted his sleeping with Tess as his giving up the fight to be human. Like, "I've fought it all these years and still I've failed. There's nothing left for me to do." Basically he collapsed from the inside. He said to Michael that he thought Mi had been right all along. He didn't really know how to react when Mi said that Max had been right all along. I don't think that was mind warp. I have been through times when my heart is so tired that I can't work out how to react to even the simplest things. Max reminded me of myself in his heaviness. He has no emotional reserves left. He is completely emotionally spent. Collapse. Max's comment, "I'm ready to wake up now." is really - "Now I become alien" as though the monster has finally got him in a check mate situation and all he sees is defeat. I also (because I've heard you talking) thought it was an episode that set up S3 perfectly. Max and Michael swap. Isobel dies and we are left with Liz and her heart bleeding all over the tarmack beside the aeroplane. Sorry if you've heard this before. [ 12-13-2001: Message edited by: mezz ] |
Posted 12-13-2001 04:00 AM by mezz
quote: I agreee. It's just easier for sound-bite summaries for articles to repeat the people working together stuff. It sounds bigger and more important. |
Posted 12-13-2001 11:28 AM by StephStephSteph
quote: Sadly, I couldn't agree more. |
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Posted 12-13-2001 03:27 PM by GraceKel
StephStephSteph and Zero--of course you know I agree, I also feel really bad they thought so little of our fandom----geez I am a lover of both scifi and romance which is what this show started out being, its when the show supposedly has become EDGY(which is another description for SOAP OPERA--which I am not a fan of-that this show totally slipped). |
Posted 12-13-2001 06:47 PM by shapeshifter
quote:mezz, ITA. Well stated! And when Liz discovers in TEOTW that Romeo & Juliet is really The Tragedy of Romeo & Juliet, I think it's a message to the audience that this is where the show's going. I guess since that's the story of my life, and, as I've said before, Liz's life is much like mine was, I don't mind not having a happy ending. Not that I wouldn't like it, but I can tolerate the tragedy, and it seems more realistic. |
Posted 12-13-2001 08:57 PM by Reggie
quote: No, you are absolutely right. The Alex-Files story arc was unbelievably moving, and good; then it just became unbelievable as Departure unfolded. The butler did it, indeed. Humph. The only way to repair the damage done to the show and the characters would have been to develop that Tess was MWed by Nikolas in MitC. I did that in "Departure, Part 2" - you've surely seen the links to it that I've been shamelessly posting. But no: Now that Max is no hero, they've destroyed Liz as a heroine. Fortunately, (rumor has it) UPN has killed a further leap downward by Liz. Maybe they know, what JK ignores: Roswell must have its hero and heroine, or die of neglect. One must hope; not should, MUST. It's in the Bible somewhere... |
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Posted 12-14-2001 11:17 AM by avaSpeaks
Reggie, you are totally right!!!! I heard that true, and personally, somebody needs to step in and stop the madness, because this is getting way out of control... Personally, the fans don't want Tess mindwarped, they wan't Max mindwarp, because if Tess is mindwarped, then that leaves the door open for the crazy writers to say that Max would feel sorry for her and then have her try to re-build a friendship with Max... The only way that could work is if Tess develops serious feelings for Kyle and then they start their love story...other than that...she needs to stay away... And personally, I don't trust the writers to be that creative...maybe on Buffy, Angel, or Charmed, but NOT on Roswell, not these writers... |
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Posted 12-14-2001 08:19 PM by haniczka
Warning: this is a sad post - not negative, but sad. I came away from watching EOTW with the feeling like I'd been looking in a photo album, or watching old home videos. How young and fresh they were. When Future Max disappears, it is The End of the World. I know we don't want to believe this, but that Liz and that Max (I call them Past-Liz and Past-Max) and THEIR world, are gone forever. Present Max (I can't call him Stepford Max anymore) and Present Liz struggle on, but theirs is a different, and frankly, less interesting story. Shapeshifter your earlier post on this page echoes a thought I've been trying to shake. Romeo and Juliet ends in tragedy. I think the problem none of us wants to recognize is that Past Max and Past Liz are just as gone. Oh, the last time they kiss and Max says "I know you felt that..." And it turns out that they were kissing each other good-bye. JK is a fantastic writer. His characters, his pilot, and this episode, well, everyone agrees they'll never forget any of it. The poor guy didn't MEAN to write a beautiful tragedy...he INTENDED to write a television series. But his story ended with The End of the World. I wonder what would have happened if William Shakespeare had decided a few weeks after Romeo and Juliet's success that he wanted to add a season to their story. Maybe he could have them arrive in another world, or maybe they weren't really dead. But you see, it would never work. I think he'd get the equivalent of Season 3. Please don't get me wrong. I'm head-over-heels devoted to this show, and will watch faithfully through thick and thin. But I'm watching because of the memories it stirs inside, the story of a noble woman who gave up the love of her life for a higher cause. -HH |
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Posted 12-14-2001 08:50 PM by Zara
haniczka, you've described it perfectly. I'm so glad you posted that. Zara |
Posted 12-14-2001 08:53 PM by shapeshifter
quote:hi hani I think you're right in that he didn't mean to write a beautiful tragedy. As a creative person, this is what he feels inside, and it's what comes out. It seems odd to me, since he is (I believe?) happily married. Regardless, it is a story to which many relate. Love and life are not fairytale perfect. But you are also right about how Roswell seems to get better when rewatched--like the memories of an old album--it always seems that the old high school romance or the college affair was oh-so romantic in retrospect. At the time it was excruciatingly painful emotionally. I guess that's why the ratings aren't too great--Roswell, like wine or (no laughing!) cheese, needs to age to be its best. How sad that they rarely show reruns. It would probably boost the ratings. |
Posted 12-14-2001 09:17 PM by jero
quote: Hi, My first post here. I think you nailed it on the head!!! Reruns of Season 1 couldn't hurt. I would love to see the Max/Liz chemistry develop from the beginning. I missed most of S1 and have a hard time keeping up with the way you all weave the epps together. Do you have a list somewhere of the abreviations that you use for the eppy names? How does a newbie get caught up on the lingo? Sorry if this is off topic. |
Posted 12-14-2001 09:27 PM by Reggie
quote: Go to Crashdown.com, and click on the episode listings. Most of our episode names are just the initials: Max in the City = MitC. There are also transcripts there, so you can read all about it. But if you're a newbie, Fair Warning: |
Posted 12-14-2001 09:38 PM by Reggie
quote: The latest report is that UPN is getting CBS (!) to run its network, and that Roswell has already (privately) been cancelled. Maybe so. But look at the Robins Report from TV Guide: "Also quick to click with viewers are dramas- such as CBS's The Guardian and WB's Smallville- that explore themes about family and redemption." That's the heart of Roswell, right there. It's a bird in the hand: surely worth something? And for my take on how to Fix It: It may be enough, just to know that it can be done... |
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Posted 12-14-2001 10:00 PM by Style
Reggie you are probably right. But S2, in my view, alongwith many others, did destroy Roswell's magic. And Tess' storyline was the main factor, i.e., non-internet viewers. There were three (3) pods, who, my the grace of their protectors, sent them to earth. To one day come back and save their people. What happened to this? Destiny, the three (3) pods, were to come back and save their world/people? What happened to this? The three (3) pods tried to fit in, well at least Isabel and Michael, what happened to the king? Destiny that brought the royal 3 down before, has surfaced. A single small town girl, Liz Parker, saved planet earth, at what expense? Until later? The destiny that was brought into reality even worst? Yes. The people of Antar are still waiting for their king. Again, misguided. Liz Parker once again, is a major part. Sci-fi, how about a young human, a small town girl, who can, not understanding why, save both worlds, in two different parts of space and time.
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Posted 12-14-2001 10:10 PM by jero
Thanks Reggie for the tip about Crashdown.com
quote: I'm a Newbie to FanForum. I saw most of S2 and have become obsessed (can't figure out why) with Roswell in S3. Maybe it's like you said "the last 10 minutes of a movie" that's usually the best part !!! |
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Posted 12-14-2001 10:42 PM by shapeshifter
jero, welcome Reggie is our resident "Grumpy" Liz is Snow White, of course. Unfortunately, Prince Charming got turned into a frog and then woke up as Sleeping beauty. This makes Reggie Grumpy. |
Posted 12-15-2001 06:34 AM by mezz
quote: So you've become obsessed like the rest of us. No escape now and personally I wouldn't want to. Roswell, if you get it, and apparently you do, is like no other. That is the reason us fans are so obsessive and have fought for it so hard. Most people don't get it, that is why the ratings are always so low. Our lives are richer, theirs are not. It is my experience that most people are oblivious to the good stuff. Be happy you can see it. JK is a wonderful story teller. He has had to compromise on things which is why I think things have got so messy, but NEVER have I been so moved by a TV story. It might have taken me about 4 months to work out exactly why my thoughts drift to this show every time my mind rests but I have learnt a lot about myself through the stories and characters. JK likes to explore how people react and think. Obsession, in this case is enjoyable and healthy in a strange kind of way. Enjoy it. Find where it leads you. Treasure it. |
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Posted 12-15-2001 08:47 AM by Nemo
Reggie, thanks for the stories. |
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Posted 12-15-2001 11:22 AM by healersbabe
Hey guys I'm actually not posting much anymore but I can't help coming back in here you guys are all soo smart its liek brainfood for the soul AvaSpeaks ITA with everything you beautifully said and here's to your ideas of how the show should end, cheers!. I do not recall who said the ditty about what would happen if Shakespeare had to write another season to Romeo&Juliet but a couple of things whoever planned this so called saving the world missed out on, if this is Romeo&Juliet without a happy ending, that means they both die... I think whoever planned the tear forgot one little detail about the entire plan...they forgot God he doesn't like his plans to be altered...
quote: BTW Elenac thank.u for your kind words ! At this point in time everybody from here to timbuktoo knows about where it is. Somebody sold them out. But on that note if they think Liz was supposed to create it with Serena in the future...say hypothetically she is the granolith, obviously the Antarians no longer need the machine they thought was the granolith they have wormholes...then the tear they created in time and space was in Liz's timeline and do you know what happens when you create a tear in an atom?!?...Einstein was trying to split himself up so that he would have his perfect mate this however in the wrong hands got used to make a bomb. Everybody knows that was not what he was planning on building, thus the Roosevelt letter to alert the US about the plans. Say, sort to speak, Max and Liz cement=become one soul shared/one entity in two souls...one atom...you break the entity apart...break the bond apart...you start a nuclear fussion reaction that will chain reaction everything in its path until it finds its other half again. TEOTW. So somebody better have a back up plan [ 12-15-2001: Message edited by: healersbabe ] |
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Posted 12-15-2001 01:23 PM by vox humana
Jero--ITA, I still believe there are still some good parts left, even if it is at the last 10 minutes of the show. I know the issue about the lack of involvement by the parents and the sudden TOTAL involvement of the parents has been mentioned. But I have this question that has been floating around in the peripheral of my mind---What was Mr. and Mrs. Evans doing in the desert when they found Max and Iz? Is Mrs. Evans a typical Kool-Aid mom who is married to the suddenly inspired Commando Dad? Was the sudden emergence of parental guidance and sleuthing in answer to the questions brought up here in the theories? Or...Mrs. E as a young girl, used to wake up and just had the feeling that her life was going to be special and that she was going to be part of something bigger than she could ever imagine. As a young adult she would drive out to the desert and look up at the night sky, knowing that something miraculous and important was going to happen to her. And she shared her thoughts with her new, idealistic husband. And as she was telling the story, a breeze blew and she could smell the sage and hear the rustle of the mesquite and then like a dream she heard a whisper... "Fear not, ..."
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Posted 12-15-2001 01:39 PM by GilrozGirl
quote: Good question! I've never really thought about that myself. It's not an especially popular area, or else the pods and granolith wouldn't have been hidden in the cave there...and I doubt Max and Isabel got very far...so what were the Evanses doing there? Things that make you go hmmm... ~Gilroz Girl |
Posted 12-15-2001 03:36 PM by Reggie
quote: Reggie is grumpy, because Snow White and Prince Charming got turned into Bonnie & Clod. But Reggie still cares... and so clearly, he's "Dopey". Closed circuit for SS & SSS: That girl I told you about would turn 40 tomorrow. Can I get even karmic credit, for remembering? |
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Posted 12-15-2001 05:49 PM by Qfanny
I realize that this isn't critics corner. But I hate the direction of this season. I just can't stand it. When I think of the way the first few episodes were; when Liz and Max were the heart of the story. The obstacle was differences, and slowly, they were overcoming them out of love. The idea that love is universal is told in the Max/Liz story. Lately, the message being sent to the viewers is that love is hormonal. "What so special about being normal?" Apparantly, Max's insight could not be practiced. In season one they left normal. Sorry to post so negatively. |
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Posted 12-15-2001 07:12 PM by haniczka
Originally posted by healersbabe:I do not recall who said the ditty about what would happen if Shakespeare had to write another season to Romeo&Juliet but a couple of things whoever planned this so called saving the world missed out on, if this is Romeo&Juliet without a happy ending, that means they both die... Hi healersbabe! I was actually expecting someone to say that. I meant Past Liz and Past Max have experienced a figurativedeath, of course... You know, passing the point of no return, loss of innocence, that sort of thing. I believe they are gone, just like when I read my own diaries from when I was sixteen, that young lady is gone. I'm not sure when she(young me) moved on, but in Past Liz and Past Max's case, the process was "surgical" (how awful) and I am still morning their loss. They have died in a way. Qfanny - good to see you. Close caption to Dopey: even though I'm not SS or SSS, it means you're a good guy. Mezz, eloquent as usual. In spite of all the pain, my life is richer thanks to Roswell. -HH |
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Posted 12-15-2001 09:38 PM by shapeshifter
Qfanny, so good to read your on-target writing again, even if it is sad. Yours too, hani, is worth reading (and sad). And I too am sad about all the talk of cancelation. Sigh... what is that about how a prophet is appreciated everywhere but in his own land? (read: hollywood, or... writers' guild) I suppose our small faithful following is equivalent--percentage wise--to Van Gogh's brother being the only one who appreciated his work. He died pennyless, but a few years ago his Sunflowers sold for about 3 mil. |
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Posted 12-15-2001 10:41 PM by jero
Thanks everyone for the warm welcome
quote: Thanks for the encouragement, but how many of you first became obsessed with a TV show at 41 ? Nuf said about that. OK I'm off to catch up on your past theories and read more transcripts. Hopefully I'll have something profound to contribute. Until then |
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Posted 12-15-2001 11:39 PM by Zero
Jero - I just wanted to give you another "welcome" ! (and age-wise - I think you have a lot of company! ) Reggie - I think it is wonderful you remember her birthday! I still remember the birthdays of people who were significant in my past - weirdness of how my mind works! Qfanny!! HI!! And so true!! Not much to add - but looking forward to seeing what the Christmas episode has in-store for us! Zero |
Posted 12-16-2001 02:20 AM by mezz
quote: Good taste knows no age limit and you certainly wouldn't be the oldest one here I'm sure. It goes to show how good the show is when it is written as a teen show and has all us classy people hooked. |
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Posted 12-16-2001 03:47 PM by Zara
Jero, you may count me among your peers... Zara |
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Posted 12-16-2001 05:26 PM by Nemo
Jero, you were ahead of me -- I was 52. |
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Posted 12-16-2001 07:43 PM by Reggie
I'm 42, but it was a couple of years ago... |
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Posted 12-16-2001 08:13 PM by Style
I'm 47 years old. Style |
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Posted 12-16-2001 08:27 PM by jero
I'm so happy, I've finally found home. Still reading through Zero's summary of the S2 thread . Taking notes too. My you all have really expanded the show. It really does help one to look at one's self! |
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Posted 12-16-2001 08:56 PM by haniczka
Jero, all this time, I thought I was the old-timer here, and I don't turn forty for a whole five months!!! I don't recall being this addicted to a show ever before. Thanks for your encouragement, SS. You really may be right about it being "before its time" or rejected by those unwilling to see its greatness. Isn't it VERY interesting that Hollywood just came out with that "K-PAX" movie which sounds similar in theme to our Roswell...? It's almost as if someone knows the potential is there, but they don't have JK's magic on their side. What do you all suppose are the chances of them ever airing Season One, in order, again? Is there even a chance??? -HH |
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Posted 12-17-2001 11:48 AM by kla
Jero, I too became obsessed with a TV show for the first time with Roswell, from the very first episode. (at age 47). It just shows what great appeal the show had in the beginning. So sad to see it come to this kind of ending. |
Posted 12-17-2001 02:39 PM by Reggie
quote: Oh, shucks. It'll be on The Sci-Fi Channel, before you know it. Re-runs of a cult sci-fi show? Sure... Now, the interesting part is: suppose it gets good ratings there? In theory, they could order more episodes... but as a condition, starting after S2 (Dallasing S3), and with JK officially NOT in charge of storylines. OK, no real chance. But if there were a chance of "saving" Roswell, that'd be it. IMHO, YMMV, etc. |
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Posted 12-17-2001 09:09 PM by shapeshifter
Okay, everyone knows that shapeshifter is now 48 right? Since it occurred on Sept. 11, some might have missed it. But Reggie, now you have another that you won't forget easily. And yes, I still remember the birthday of my dark alien bf from when I was 16 and looked and thought a lot like Liz. About the 2 recent reruns (P & TEOTW), in both of them, Liz had an idea to save someone(s) that wasn't very well thought out. In P, having Maria pretending to be hit by her own car, and in TEOTW, having FM go tell PL to hook him up with T . So then, moving along, last Christmas Liz was in the role of 'wonderful counselor' to Max. Looking at the previews, I think she might be similarly cast this year. [ 12-17-2001: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 12-17-2001 10:03 PM by jero
OK, believe it or not, I read ALL of Zero's S2 summary and all of Thread 54 and 55. Whew!! ~rubs tired eyes~ Wormholes. I didn't see the eppy (you're probably gonna get a lot of that, sorry) where Liz had the future(?) flash that included a wormhole. Was it the same one that was in Interruptus? I don't remember a wormhole when the podsquad used Larek to call home. So this "better than a ship" transportation method transports what exactly? The mind? The essence? Something more? Or does it just use less of the Antarians resources? Make it easier to hold on to the body for longer? What would have happened to Iz/Vilondra if she had entered the wormhole? Would the Vilondra essence have been 'sucked' out of her? Would there be anything of Iz left on earth? (I know you have debated what 'essence' is, to me it's the energy that makes a person an individual, the soul, the mind, or what have you.) Would both Iz/Vilondra disappear up the WH? You have also speculated why Max didn't jump in; he didn't think to; he was too slow;..... If the "better than a ship" transportation method separates the essence from the physical body that would make the Dreamers very happy!! Zan goes back to Antar and Max stays on Earth with Liz!!! (See, I eventually got to Liz ) But wait, the podsters aren't possessed humans (are they?), they're hybrids. Can someone point me to where 'it' says that the hybrids are the result of mixing human and alien DNA?
Didn't catch if anyone voiced an opinion on what Phil Evans thinks his son in hiding. To me the obvious suspicion would be dealing drugs. If that's the case, I'm looking for some DNA testing in a future eppy. Surely there's some of Max and Iz's hair around the Evans'house. What is the OTO thread? Where is the RTDG site? Later, |
Posted 12-18-2001 10:59 AM by elenac
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Posted 12-18-2001 12:02 PM by StephStephSteph
HI RBI! Don't have much to write, but wanted to check in on RosDay. Have a good one. |
Posted 12-18-2001 12:17 PM by healersbabe
quote: thats actually soo soo true I'm really pissed I never taped them !! Atleast my friend Angel did I'll bum them off her I just realized why I'm always the one getting in trouble ih here...I'm 25 . Fine, I'm the immuture one . No wonder all you guys are so damn smart!!!!!! Elenac I think even if they try to go back in time once an atom forms not much you can do to unbond it...if you do its hello nuclear bombs...thats the ABC's of nuclear fission !! Poor Bush . Some things are just God's mystery and best not to be tinkered with... So sad the show had to go this way. Well...back to downloading Christmas music for my mom... Reggie you crack me the heck up |
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Posted 12-18-2001 04:33 PM by Alexis
Hi everyone! Well, I was talking to my co-worker, Craig, who I got to watch all of the tapes of S1 and S2 and now he watches it regularly. Anyhoo, I was telling him the writer's could still make it so the whole Tex/baby was a mindwarp. The big question if they do that would be: then who has been contacting Max this whole time and why does Max KNOW it's his son? The answer: it is his son that is contacting him, but it is his and Liz's son and he is contacting him from the future, but through a different route (since the Granolith never left, but Max and Liz don't know it Baby Parker-Evans--with his keen intellect and knowledge that time travel is possible he devises a plan to contact them in the past to warn them about the fact that it was all fake.) What do you all think? |
Posted 12-18-2001 06:05 PM by shapeshifter
quote: That would be M2M when Maxcedo & Liz kissed quote: I think Brody/Larek just mentioned it as a means of escape from the Gandarium crystals in the Hybrid Chronicles quote: Season 2, ep 1, first segment quote: yes, this has been discussed--not ad nauseum, but probably pretty close If you really want to, go to The Archives and do a search for "ides." BTW, my Shakespeare-loving almost-13-year-old is telling me it's from Julius Ceasar, that there was a conspiracy to kill him on that date, and there were 'a bunch of C's,' and he died on the Ides of March. quote:...nah, not really, except that the moms don't seem to have jobs to keep them from noticing quote: Good idea!! quote: "Over Thirty and Obsessed" [quote]...Where is the RTDG site? http://home.pacbell.net/rshryne/ratdg/intro.htm |
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Posted 12-18-2001 09:04 PM by jero
Thanks SS I'm off to re-read more eppys and look for screen caps. Does anyone know of a source for past eppys? I know about the tape trading thread, but don't have any tapes to trade Later, |
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Posted 12-18-2001 09:09 PM by haniczka
Healersbabe, I know we're supposed to assume in theory that one gets smarter as one ages, but who really believes it?! I often feel highly inept on these threads and I've taughtJulius Caesar, for crying out loud! Just watched "Samual Rising." It seemed a little thread-bare in substance to me. It was fun to watch everyone be themselves, but that was about it. Max definitely needs to move on now. THAT'S what Samual's telling you, Max...MOVE ON! And Alexis, I find your theory more promising than most. I've wondered too if Future Liz could find a way to wormhole Future Max back, and tell him he's got to clean up the entire "End of the World" mess. I know: talk about cheesy! But it could be worth watching; I enjoyed the chemistry between Future Max and Liz a lot. Maybe that will happen after the show gets taken over by the Sci-Fi channel, as Reggie predicts... And Future Max will explain to Liz that Tess was mindwarped and Serena was mindwarped and JK was mindwarped and then everything will be okay... -HH |
Posted 12-18-2001 09:17 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Alexis, I like your idea. So then (if I grok you ), the Tess baby was a mind warp, and it is the child of FM and FL that is contacting Max. But why not contact Liz? Okay, I've already seen SR, and liked it a lot. To me, it tied up way more loose ends than Departure ever did. |
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Posted 12-19-2001 12:07 AM by Luna G
Hi mythers. I'm just popping over from the sci fi thread with an observation about Samuel Rising that really doesn't pertain to sci fi, but I thought you all would like it. While Max is attempting to heal Samuel, the song Silent Night is playing. Check out this line as pertains to Samuel, “Holy infant so tender and mild.” Oh, and how does this pertain to Liz? Not to worry. That would be "Round yon virgin, mother and child..." |
Posted 12-19-2001 04:13 AM by elenac
quote: ITA with Hanicza that doubts that smartness is only a matter of age and, you can be mature at 15 or immature at 50. and all said is Liz Myth related. [ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: elenac ] |
Posted 12-19-2001 10:31 AM by Alexis
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Posted 12-19-2001 11:03 AM by avaSpeaks
I'm 25!!! So I guess I'm the young one here This was the first eppy in a long time that made me cry at the end!!! Max calling Liz his home was just too much man Yes, and I too believe that Samuel is telling Max to move on!!!!! He has the one he needs to be with, she is right there with him, now the writers just need to fix some more mess, and then we will be alright |
Posted 12-19-2001 12:38 PM by healersbabe
quote: ROTFLMAO @ the grok Good one!! but dash garnit you bring up a very good point!! Ok, how about we tie two in one and say Tess's plan to mindwarp FM and FL was to cut the possibility of the baby contacting Liz (as she knows it contacting dumb as a doornail Max wouldn't solve crap ... )because as we've seen with Max and Liz having a secret between them = flashes. Liz would block any flashes so as she doesn't get a flash of say Max kissing Tess or whatever reason its not pure or something, it causes a tear, Liz no flashes=no possibility of the son vibes reaching her. Or maybe he has been all this time and she's been keeping it in her journal !! Hehehe.....how about Alex was the other protector/shapeshifter thats why Tess killed him )...and at the end we have the same pilot scene when Liz is getting shot BUT, Liz&Max's son Ok, so in TEOTW the psychic lady (lets play pretend and that she really does tell them what happens)... might have still been talking about Alex when she says this relationship will not last it will only last 48 hours...Alex doesn't last long with Isabel so she wasn't talking about Maria. We got that...read this all again as if the entire chat was still about Alex... ETOTW: Alex falls,... he's different(?)still talking abotu Alex and NOT Max, he might be the shapeshifter and he was Isabel's protector but now Jesse is... ETOTW: (continued) Alex comes back as a leader of the people? He chooses to come back as Liz's son?!? Yes fine I'm desperate to find a way to make everything be happy, but he's the only male character besides Kyle that still has some backbone ... elenacok but you're all still incredibly waaaay smart !! Speaking of Silent Night I better try to redownload all this Christmas music... Oh and how purty is this cap of the rainbow behind Liz right after Max heals her !!??!!! IMAGE: www.theddd.com/pi/npi6.jpg Then there is a huge big ass rainbow in the sky at the end!! [ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: healersbabe ] |
Posted 12-19-2001 03:14 PM by Reggie
quote: No. Max "knows" that it's his son, because he believed he was "contacting" it in Tess's womb. Not necessarily! Remember, I'm taking that Tess was MWed, because she had neither motive, not means, not opportunity to do the Evil Stuff. So, try this: Tess just thinks she's pregnant (it's part of her MW to think so). The pregnancy is a sort of hysterical pregnancy, and Max was really in contact with a figment of Tess's imagination. K' var still wants the R4 dead, but he wants them all together for the display. Tess is now a "guest" of his. So Tess is in a pickle, but only realizes this subconciously. Her subconcious is contacting Max for help, since it knows him from before when he thought it was his son. One other point: The Granolyth blasted off, and flew away. K' var is not trying to get hold of Liz, neither are the Skins. Liz is not The Granolyth. The Granolyth is an alien item, and as we all know: LIZ IS NOT AN |
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Posted 12-19-2001 03:32 PM by avaSpeaks
But Reggie the problem with you theory is that the writers didn't present the motive, or what's in in for Tess...but we didn't have a problem trusting her because they did present her as distrustful... So, we know why she was intent on the split between the humans and the aliens, but what we don't know why she did it, what was in it for her??? Could it be that Kivar said if you do this, then we will spare your life??? Was she that weak that she felt it was her duty to do that??? Only if we knew her plan or MO, then I can see if I want to say that Tess was mindwarped... |
Posted 12-19-2001 09:02 PM by shapeshifter
quote:hani, LOL!
quote:Luna, the words to that song were so clear too! Not just "background music." And Alexs & healersbabe: So then, to distill your ideas: if the baby is FL & FM's, but Liz is blocking flashes from Max so she won't see Tess stuff, this could prevent his son from contacting Liz. But also, I have to agree with hani & avaspeaks that Samuel seems to be bringing Max the message to move on. |
Posted 12-20-2001 07:03 AM by Zara
quote: Yes! I agree. They could have stopped now and ended well, imo. (not that I don't look forward to future episodes, mind you...) |
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Posted 12-20-2001 05:31 PM by mezz
maybe Liz can't hear the communication from the son because she as yet hasn't discovered how she has changed. She never really investigated how she contacted Max in NY and perhaps she thinks she can only do stuff through another alien not on her own. But to completely contradict myself... Liz would respond if she heard or felt something because she has always seemed like she would (can't think of any proof at the moment). She would go "hey what was that? That's not scientific" and try to understand it. But...maybe she is closed off a bit because of all that has happened and so just dismisses it as one of the many confusing voices in her heart. |
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Posted 12-21-2001 05:11 AM by GraceKel
Hi Fellow Mythers---did anyone notice that the xmas tree that Samuel is staring at in the crashdown has 3 alien head ornaments on it and 1 small silvery white one? Did anyone get any vibes from Samuel swinging the door back and forth moving the light------the way that Max said right..........right--------it reminded me of the way he said right.......right when he looked like he was totally out of it RUBBING TESS'FEET LOL!!!! I haven't got time to post more right now-later guys maybe later |
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Posted 12-21-2001 07:08 AM by roswell kiss'z
remeber in max in the city.. ava said that shes been changed coz max healed her and shes like this super alien who rember things from their past so i think liz could be a potential alien...??? |
Posted 12-21-2001 01:04 PM by Metaphysicalgrl
quote: Hey Gracekel! Popping into the Myth thread to see what's going on, and I couldn't *not* comment on this one. Master Of Puppets was released prior to And Justice For All. Max put And Justice For All ahead of Master of Puppets because he was putting the CD's alphabetically. Michael was offended because he felt that Max should put the CD's in order according to release date (and because Master Of Puppets is the better Metallica album). I really don't think there was any deeper meaning here, probably just some fun ad-libbing by the actors. But then again,I have an extremely difficult time these days thinking that there is any deeper meaning to anything Roswell related! If the writers only paid as much attention to detail as we do... {~}:} |
Posted 12-21-2001 01:17 PM by Metaphysicalgrl
quote: I used to think that Tess was mindwarped by Nicholas in MITC. I still think it's possible, because the dates of Alex's 'departure' for Sweden line up exactly with MITC and what clues silverhandprint.com had provided way back when. I posted a lot about this after Departure, I'm sure those posts are archived somewhere, if you're interested. (at the time I thought I had it all figured out! LOL) Remember, it was NASEDO'S deal with Khivar, not Tess's. Tess could've just been either a) a mindwarped pawn in their game or b) A willing participant in the plan -- remember, she was raised by Nasedo and only relatively recently did she meet the pod squad. Tess being willing kind of explains how Nasedo and Tess came onto the scene with the boxes of pictures and the questionable intentions and how it was important for Tess to ingratiate herself in the pod squad's world. I think what the writer's missed was the opportunity to build the Tess character by watching her struggle with her alien/human side and all the wonderful storylines that could've come from that... However, in light of the writing on Roswell, here's the interpretation of events that I choose to think happened... Tess came in with evil intentions. Raised by Nasedo, she only knew her alien side. Once in Roswell and in touch with the pod squad, she started to realize there was another side of her...the human side, that wanted to celebrate Christmas and wanted to be liked and accepted by the others. After Nasedo was killed and she moved in with the Valenti's, this was even more evident. At the end of wipeout when Tess 'wipes out' the skins, I think the whole fireball represented a phoenix rising out of the ashes... her chance for redemption... her coming out of Nasedo's 'control' and choosing for herself what side she wanted to be on. I really do feel like she was mindwarped or reprogrammed in MITC to carry out Khivar and Nicholas's plan, because Nicholas realized that they had lost her as an ally. Anyhow, I like to think of Tess of being Bad, then good, then bad again (not by her own choice). However, I realize that the writers didn't put too much thought into this, so anything we think is just a figment of our own imagination. {~}:} |
Posted 12-21-2001 02:36 PM by Reggie
quote: Well, let me elaborate. So, she tried reasoning with them. She showed them that she was an alien, the "Destiny" book, and eventually the Pod Chamber itself. Eventually, she convinced Max and the others that, "She's one of us." Max did not accept her as his wife, though; even though Liz bailed out on him at the end of Destiny. So Tess did what any rational person would. She tried to be patient, and good to Max. She got disgusted eventually, and was going to quit Max, Roswell, etc.: one fling with cutie Kyle, perhaps, then leave. Then Liz started to fix her up with Max! Well, she gave it a shot. Eventually, she and Max went to NYC together for The Summit. Afterwards, Lonnie & Rath captured her, and held her for Nikolas. Nikolas's Plan First, that her "father" had told her about The Deal. Tess was a follower, not a leader: she would do as she was told... that is, as she thought she was told. Second, that Max was not really The King, just a boy. This was true: at the moment, he wasn't. Thus, her personal loyalty to Max was disabled. It would be overruled by her loyalty to her "father", and "his" Deal. Third, that part of The Plan was to get pregnant by Max. The child would be unable to survive here, so she, Max, and the others (if possible) would "have to" go home to Twilo for the kid's sake. Necessarily, she's have to have sex with Max. The pregnancy is assured, by MWing her to believe she would be pregnant afterwards. By making the "pregnancy" a short one, the others could be rushed into leaving. Since she believes she's pregnant, Max was actually in touch with a figment of Tess's imagination.* Fourth, that she was to send someone trustworthy and computer-savvy (like Alex) to Las Cruces University with the Destiny Book to translate it. Clearly, whoever thought this part up would have had to know about LCU, and the computers there to translate the book. In fact, I propose that Nikolas was in a better position to know this, and that he selected Alex, and invented the LCU operation, while he was handling Tess's mind. Having her MW Alex put her "fingerprints" on him, so that Nikolas's involvement would be screened. Likewise, using Jennifer (not Leanna) Coleman as his cats'-paw in LC covered Nikolas's involvement there. Jennifer also provided a diversion for Alex, so he would not think of Isabel and break down his MW. While there, Nikolas could also have gotten the Sweden slides from (say) a professor who'd been there, and been using the warehouse as his office. Note that, once Alex got back, the more he thought of Isabel the weaker the MWs became. I imagine Tess trying to keep it going after Alex got back, and failing: she's not as strong as Nikolas. Only Nikolas could have given Alex the month-long mindwipe in LC: Tess can only mindwarp a major hallucination for a few minutes (WR, S&B, etc.). Blocking and replacing a few selected memories may take less work, as OtM and Kyle in Departure suggest. But even there, she wasn't able to keep Alex MWed for very long. Whoever did the MW at LCU had to have been much stronger: only Nikolas could. (Translation also requires knowlege of both languages: something only Nikolas (and Mr. Harding) would have known.) Tess has to be Good *To save Roswell, Tess could be a captive of K' var's, and still MWed. She only realizes her peril subconsiously, and it's her subconsious that's been calling Max for help. No Junior needed. I'll once again shamelessly plug [ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 12-21-2001 05:49 PM by InLoveWithLiz
Hello Liz's Importance to Alien Mythologists! The character of Liz is very mystical. Sometimes, here at work, my friends and I love discussing about her potential and importance to the aliens. There is defintely a connection between her and Max Evans, and we all feel it is for the better good. We would love for TPTB to give us their reason "why Max" at a young age was attracted, totally, with young Liz, and which, such attraction, still proves strong. We enjoy reading this thread, especially Liz's part! Davy |
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Posted 12-22-2001 05:50 PM by mezz
Reggie - I really like your theory. It makes a lot of sense. Something definately happened to Tess in NYC and there has to be a reason why it was put in there. It would have been really easy for Liz to appear and Max to have been saved and for Lonnie and Rath to run away and leave Tess. They took her for a reason. Unless there is a lot to Tess that we have not been told then she wouldn't have been able to plant the alien bomb in the warehouse. I wonder if the bomb would have gone off if only Maria and Liz had walked in. Something makes me think that it could have been attuned to alien prescence. Nicholas is pretty disgusted with the aliens abilities. He might have thought they wouldn't have got rid of it in time. I have always wondered why Ed and Tess had pictures on Max only. That never sat right with me. Why Max? Why not pictures of the Royal 3? The explanation that they were to study how to trap Max makes sense. Perhaps what happened to Tess in NYC was nothing more than beating up on her because she was losing interest in her original task. She was still doing the Kyle thing when she got back so maybe she wasn't mind warped to do the betrayel thing just slightly tweaked in some way. |
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Posted 12-22-2001 08:48 PM by GraceKel
Metaphysicalgrl--I know what you are saying that those lines might not mean a thing, of course this is a possibility, I realize this, but to me the FUN in MYTHING is trying to uncover clues so I just notice things in the episode and ponder their relevance, if any. Are there things that might not have any real relevance(?), of course but how do we decide which is important and which is not? So I just try to post about things that I notice just to put it out there whether it has significance of course is anybody's guess? By the way I will change my post now about Samuel staring the tree----it did have 3 green alienheads but it actually had 2 small silvery white alien figures----this would be in keeping with the 32 which has been featured throughout. I might get back here before XMAS but in case I do not-hope all the Liz Mythers have HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!! |
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Posted 12-22-2001 10:01 PM by shapeshifter
First, Reggie, while reading your post I was suddenly mindwarped into believing it. Or at least the first part. I just rewatched Samuel Rising with 2 of my daughters. It's interesting to think about Liz's role in the ep and what that translates to overall. When Max is running off on his assumption that Samuel is being used by his son to contact him (with the "Danger: High Voltage" sign over his shoulder), Liz points out that maybe Samuel just recognizes that Max is someone who has the ability to help him. Liz is able to help the "self-indulgent little boy" grow to be a man who is able to serve others. |
Posted 12-22-2001 10:38 PM by starlove
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Posted 12-23-2001 02:04 PM by Vihmakass
hi! ...im not seeing Samuel yet... just here to say i still love your posts and im here with you! --------------------------- healersbabe! ....a special smile to you --------------------------- btw. im 40 ...yeah |
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Posted 12-24-2001 11:17 PM by shapeshifter
Just returned from Christmas Eve candlelight service and thinking about how SR ties in with the meaning of Christmas. Max was initially just interested in what he could get, then (with Liz's help) tried to see what he could give, and finally (also with Liz's help) saw that he did not personally have the necessary resources to be the source of the gift that was needed, but that he had to join with others. |
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Posted 12-25-2001 12:01 AM by jero
Just wanted to wish everyone a Merry Christmas! Later, |
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Posted 12-26-2001 09:38 AM by Vihmakass
........steping in to say : Head Uut Aastat! = Happy New Year! to you all. And i still belive. |
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Posted 12-26-2001 09:50 PM by jero
Where is everyone? I'm just gonna think out loud for a while. I admit that I never thought of Liz as having powers until I found this thread. OK, if the R4 have maxed out human powers and Liz has an awsome intelligence, that means an advanced brain. So she uses more of her brain than most people which makes it possible for her to develop 'powers'. When Max healed Liz, and later with the reverse connection, he touched that potential. Awakening what? The so called psychic powers? ESP, astral projection, clairavoyance? What ever it is, Max's hybrid powers changed her neural pathways, allowing her brain to make new connections and unknowingly 'gather' her energy. That concentrated energy would pick up on the unintentional alien 'flashes' in SH. It would home in on the alien energy of the orb, compelling Liz to seek it out. Not tomorrow, but "Look, all I know is that if we're gonna do this, we've gotta do it tonight." So she's starting to get used to this alien connection, the freak-out factor is lessening, but not quite gone. In MITC Ava says Liz can warn Max because she's been changed. Liz says "I don't know why, but I'm really scared to do this." Notice she didn't say she was afraid to try it. She was scared to DO it. Her subconscious knows she can do it, but she hasn't accepted the fact that she has powers too. Whenever Liz's powers appear, it's just in the nick of time. Have you ever known someone who is always in the right place at the right time? Almost like they're psychic? TIMING that's one of Liz's powers. Maybe due to a little clairavoyance. Has she ever done the right thing at the wrong time? (I really want to know, 'cause I didn't see all the eppys) She just seems to always say/do the right thing at the right time. Look out when she realizes her powers!! So whatever happens in the rest of this season, I think that Liz's sense of timing will play a major part. Just my humble opinion. Later, |
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Posted 12-27-2001 11:29 AM by stardust22
Jero, I like your thinking. (I am coming out of lurkdom) How about this: Max's son does not belong to him but to Nicholas. The baby and Max connected because Max tried to heal him. Tess and Nicholas are working together. The baby belongs to Nicholas. The baby is trying to tell Max that. Maybe if the baby tries to connect to Max while Max is holding Liz's hand (or something like that), they can overhear K'var and Tess talking about it. Just a thought. |
Posted 12-27-2001 12:10 PM by jero
quote: Stardust22, I still haven't decided about the baby, if there is one. Makes sense that anyone Max has healed might be able to connect with him. (That club is getting pretty large) Let's see, Nicholas is a Skin, not really a human body. IF Skins can procreate, that would explain why the atmosphere was killing the 'baby'. In Harvest Courtney says "This planet's atmosphere is hostile to our race." A connection while Max & Liz are touching. I like it!!! At just the right TIME Liz reaches out and takes Max's hand or kisses him and they both receive the communication. Then Liz figures out who/what has been trying to contact Max!!!!! Later, |
Posted 12-27-2001 03:00 PM by Reggie
quote: Thanks. About the Bomb: if Tess put it there, where'd she get it? The only folks who have alien stuff are the Skins (except the Podsters themselves, and the Army). Rule those two out, and it seems solid that Nikolas HAD to have provided the Bomb. Why? well... good question. One of the consistant problems the Writers have had is not explaining why things happen- they just do. For instance, in Skin & Bones, there was no "Plan A" that involved Mr. Harding. When he didn't show up, they were all set to go ahead with "the plan", which didn't include him! They should have visibly had to scrap or change their plan to a Plan B, which didn't include him. But nooooo.... See my Skins & Bone, a replacement episode, for an example of this. (No CHADs, sound science, etc. I just had to... ) Max Pix: Probably they had a few pictures of Max, to begin with, and Tess (for practice) started "Hand"-making copies. She did seem to have an interest for her husband, so maybe she just kept practicing and didn't get rid of the copies... |
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Posted 12-27-2001 10:28 PM by jero
Hi All, Just wanted to mention that on the Roswell 2 board there is a thread that is compiling a list of Roswell watchers; Name, Age, Place. It's called Stand up and be counted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Later, |
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Posted 12-28-2001 07:45 AM by Zara
Hi everyone, Santa brought me the first Roswell High book for Christmas, and I've noticed something rather iteresting in the very first chapter! It's Reggie's hair theory! Liz pulls her hair back into a ponytail, explaining in the narrative that she can't think clearly with her hair hanging down in her face. How does that jive with all the messy hair and confusion last season? I'm also enjoying the emphasis on auras in the book. |
Posted 12-29-2001 02:48 PM by Reggie
quote: HA! Now if I can just sell them on "Tess was Mindwarped"... |
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Posted 12-29-2001 07:23 PM by shapeshifter
My college-age daughters are gone again, so I just rewatched SR. And I took notes.
Other musings:
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