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| Topic Subject: Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology - Thread #57 |
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Posted 02-07-2002 09:53 AM by Zero
Welcome to the Table of Contents to the Introduction to the 57th Thread :grin: of the continuing discussion of "Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology." The Introduction became so long, Shapeshifter graciously agreed to host it on a website. Below is the Table of Contents to the Intro with links! Hopefully, this will continue to make this Thread accessible to everyone interested in Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology. The Intro includes summaries of all our past discussions through the end of Season 2, so is well worth reading if you are NEW to our thread! The Intro has only been up-dated to reflect observations, clues, discussions and theories through Departure and the end of Season 2, and it may be a while before more is added – unless we get something super significant from Season 3 – which we finally did with CCChanges! Thank you Aaron and Gretchen!! But it will take me a bit of time to gather thoughts and decide whether it’s worth the time to update the Intro. (All of our observations from Seasons 1&2 added to our belief in Liz’s strength, the Hero’s Journey she is on and importance of Liz to the aliens – whether they know and appreciate it or not!) So, HAVE FUN reading the Intro, and hopefully, it will refresh your memory about a specific topic or a specific date that causes you to think up some new theory! The links make that much easier! (THANK YOU Shapeshifter!) Major changes are “starred” for ease of reading if you don’t want to read the entire thing! There is never a dull moment on this Thread! We appreciated the refocus during the end of Season 2 on Liz’s importance to the storyline! (Thank you JK and RM! ) :grin: Even though Heart of Mine, Cry Your Name, It’s Too Late & It’s Too Bad, Baby It’s You, Off The Menu and Departure (which I collectively refer to as the “Stepford Max” Chronicles in the Intro) had many inducing scenes, we were provided tons of stuff to chat about and dissect! !! Plus – we had so many newbies joining into the discussion last summer - which was wonderful! It is nice to see some of those same people back after CCCChanges!! I will update a bit below once I have some time to include some observations from CCCChanges!! Feedback is always welcome! :grin: Just PM me. TABLE OF CONTENTS Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY! What is Subject for Discussion? Liz's importance to the Pod Squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! (Especially lately!) We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember – NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome! Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection Consequence of the Connection - the Change? Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really? Granolith - How does it fit in? Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything! Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up! The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things? Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in? Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run" Grandma Claudia - the first connection? Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection? Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars! Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max! Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz? Skins - What lies below the surface? Shapeshifters - Are there more than one? Horray!! We got a second shapeshifter with the introduction of the (evil??) Cal Langley, producer extraordinaire, in Hollywood! But is he Tic Tac?? Class is still out on that one, but Cal was in Roswell in 1959 – the year Atherton was killed, and we know that Cal is a killer – though his killing method seems to be slightly different (and more intense) than Harding’s and how Atherton was killed. Time will tell how Cal fits in, but obviously he has been “watching” for a while! Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation Dates seem to be of extreme interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research. If you find a date I’ve missed or see one that is wrong – PM me with the change and where you got your information! I’m always looking for new dates! New ones yet to be added: Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff, crew or UPN reads this or the Intro), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!" To have the opportunity for a Season 3 on UPN is WONDERFUL, and this show has the potential to be another “X-files” with intimate relationships IF done right! A couple of general Thread "Rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions/preview and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. If you know what a preview “really means” due to spoilers, please DON’T tell us – let us speculate – we will find out soon enough! And discussion of the books is now okay – though you might hold some stuff back for those of us who still have to read them! Thanks! As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz whose life ended too soon - said - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)! Liz found the TRUTH, and will avenge his death! (Tess – beware – you have no idea what you have released in the B*#@h!) Zero |
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Posted 02-07-2002 10:44 AM by ESQ2B
Hi! Just popping-in to let you all know that we'd love your help on the Valentine's Campaign to welcome the new UPN President who starts on February 11th. Here's the link to the thread with the information: Send your postcards ASAP! Thanks! - Tiffany |
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Posted 02-07-2002 11:00 AM by Alexis
StarBox---hi, my long lost friend! What, have you been hiding at Witch Mountain? Well, I guess I am not the only one who noticed the mirror (original one in the Pilot) is back! Yes! I was watching CCC to see about the bench, and I noticed the mirror. What does that mean???? Reggie—I definitely agree with you about them not mentioning Ava. She would be the first person (besides Langley) that they should think of. Hello, they do have mental abilities (Isabel--not that I don’t mind Isabel finally not being in an episode. Sorry that slipped out! and Liz) and they could easily track Ava. And they could also use Larek as well. I also agree that the feminine powers are more mental, which the writers seem to keep together in MITC, but are now straying from. Of course, this could be because she is going through a metamorphosis of sorts. But electrical currents going through the body seems weird. I would have gone the subtle route like her astral projecting her way into various situations. They could have even created some comedy out of it. Maybe she astral projects somewhere and then thinks it’s like what Isabel does. Then, just thinking of Isabel makes her astral project to Isabel who is in the throes of passion with “Darrin.” Ewwwwwwww. But it would have been funny. The female aliens can use force, just like hanicka mentioned, but it isn’t their primary power. Just like all the aliens can heal, only Max is the healer of the group. The females main powers lie in telepathic areas of the cerebral cortex. |
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Posted 02-07-2002 11:42 AM by Alexis
A few more things: Question I had was “Who is in the picture behind Liz?” Did anyone else notice that Max only used 4 healing stones when there used to be 5? In this picture, it looks like that 5th healing stone is inside Liz! Here is a cap with Maria and Liz on the bench. You can only see the man that sort of looks like Langley: |
Posted 02-07-2002 11:54 AM by Metaphysicalgrl
quote: Looks like it could be a young GC (Grandma Claudia). Check out the scarf and the necklace -- maybe from the days when GC was writing her book. No -- it couldn't be. That would be TOO GOOD if they brought the GC storyline back up. So...many....possibilities... {~}:} |
Posted 02-07-2002 11:55 AM by Metaphysicalgrl
quote: Just realized there was no necklace. Look at the lanky frame -- it could be a picture of Alex. {~}:} |
Posted 02-07-2002 12:43 PM by StephStephSteph
quote: Did anyone witness that conversation between Liz and Ava though? Obviously, everyone saw Liz "pop into NY" (on one side or the other), but did anyone actually hear Ava talk about Liz changing or was that simply a conversation between Liz and Ava? |
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Posted 02-07-2002 12:46 PM by StephStephSteph
By the way, good questions with the pics, Alexis The first pic looks like it may be someone in front of a windmill, but I'm not sure it looks like Alex. The Langley picture is interesting though.. intentional or merely one of those coincidences we RBI are famous for!? Oh.. one more thing.. was it me or did it look like there weren't enough healing stones put down? There are 5 right? And didn't Max put down 3 or 4? Maybe this runs into Alexis's comment about the 5th stone being (inside) Liz! |
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Posted 02-07-2002 03:24 PM by GraceKel
Hello Fellow Mythers---geesh give us a Liz episode and our thread explodes welcome back to STARBOX--boy have I missed you, but I understand why you had stopped watching I really do. And Alexis, Metaphysicalgrl, Mezz,FEveryoung,Essense, and many more I am sure I have missed someone so welcome back to all of you. Ah Meta--that picture has always been there and although I think the thing in back of her looks like an old airplane propella---what always stuck out in that photo to me is the Y (the shape of the Y--as in Yvonne White?) Actually I liked this episode because for the first time in a long time--I actually CARED! I don't have time to post everything about the episode yet but a couple of things I noticed Monique was from MEDUSA records--Medusa doesn't that have something to do with Satanic Cults or something? Got a few shivers when Kyle said Buddha take me away--like CALGON take me away===isn't that a bubble bath---very close to a BLOOD BATH hmmmm. Am I hearing things or did Monique first call the record producer---JC---JC as in Jennifer Coleman/Leanna? And Maria being asked to go to NY, and about TRAVELING(I shiver when I hear the word travel since Alex) also Monique told Maria she would be saying that for THREE YEARS----Michael was lost to Max and Isabel for 3 years, Tolpolsky was locked away at college for 3 years, it was just funny to hear the 3 years--although it could be inside joke because we hate the way they fiddled with their ages to suit their storylines LOL. Now for the Liz stuff--well quite frankly I think they wrote this VERY OPEN ENDED one of the things they just love to do having us wondering whats up. It could go in any direction---when Liz said NOTED to Kyle--shiver I thought of Tess of course. But then again in EOTW FMax did tell Liz that Max was not just the problem that she was not allowing herself to change, so this could be it. Anyone else notice the SS on the blue car being heavily featured in the desert healing scene? So I still have to question is this really Max? The Max that loved Liz so much during Blind Date? Although we see shades of him, he sometimes seems invaded to me doing uncharacteristic things---for starters the beginning of this episode--only Liz and Kyle were there for Maria and Jim as Liz pointed out. Liz actually said YOU are doing this to me!!!! This guy ignored Liz's phone calls and was ready to zoom off to Antar. Kyle says to Liz, but you go to him for EVERYTHING--that word keeps coming up---You mean everything to me,capable of destroying everything, we would do anything and everything for each other and we did. Its a running theme. I have to go now will post more later. |
Posted 02-07-2002 03:50 PM by Metaphysicalgrl
quote: Ah, don't tease me!!!
quote: OK, first off -- no A&R executive from a record company is going to mindlessly travel all over the Southwest looking for talent. Not going to happen. That annoyed me. The only way you're going to get an A&R executive out to a small club in east bumblefu... is if they had previously heard about you and they were going there to specifically check you out. You would know they were coming. Sorry, but I hate the way the music business is sometimes potrayed on TV shows. Medusa was the greek figure w/hair made up of snakes. When you would look her in the eyes, you would turn to stone.
quote: Blood Bath = BB he, he, -- thought I would throw that in for old times sake! Good to see you back GraceKel! And the others.. it's nice to have something to post about here, even if I don't totally trust the writers. It's fun to chat w/you guys! {~}:} |
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Posted 02-07-2002 04:01 PM by Alexis
Yes, Steph, they only used 4 stones. There is a picture with the 4 stones by Max and then one where he places them by Liz’s head. IMAGE: www.theddd.com/ch/ch101.jpg Quote by GraceKel I thought of that, too, GraceKel Quote by GraceKel I made a remark about this on RATDG.
I think Maria and Liz did a mirror swap! IMAGE: www.theddd.com/ch/ch61.jpg
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Posted 02-07-2002 07:56 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Bullwinkle is my alter ego, and so is Liz. Maybe Bullwinkle is Liz's alter ego? Yea, I'm being really ego-centric here, but I do have a lot of moose around. I keep one on my bed that my oldest daughter gave me. IMAGE: www2.giganet.net/~mark/NetBSD/gifs/bullwinkle.gif Okay, editing to add: "Moose--Headstrong, unstoppable longevity. Moose represents value and integrity." --like having her life saved by Max and getting a chance to change the fatal future? And "headstrong" like with Alex's death. Also: "Moose Dream Symbolism: expect a vision in which you will receive a power symbol that is extremely powerful for you" It's also a Canadian national symbol. Maybe it was from Brendan? Oh, and about that other mystery pic. I thought at first it was young Jim Valenti and they were in Kyle's room. Guess not.
quote:They certainly mentioned that name enough times. Maybe the number of times is a clue? Here's a quote from that link: quote: [ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-07-2002 10:46 PM by courtney_lovesm
Hi... My name's Courtney and I thought i might drop in and say hi. I've been , and i decided to finally say hi! I actually think what you guys are saying is so true! Liz is and always will be part of Maxs' life, and she was definately meant to meet the pod squad for a reason...destiny I hope you'll all welcome me back, and we can share some conversations! luv Courtney |
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Posted 02-08-2002 12:38 AM by Zero
Hi All! Thoughts on CCChanges: This is being posted without reading what others have written on this thread, so I apologize if I mention something someone already brought up. I’ve been able to re-watch CCChanges three times now, and every time is a total pleasure!! Here are my observations: Okay – sorry I was so long, but I had to post my thoughts. Did I say I loved this Episode??? Writers – please don’t let us down after this wonderful episode! |
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Posted 02-08-2002 12:46 AM by mezz
Hey Courtney welcome back As for Iz using other than mind power: when she was rescuing Tess from VW she heated a hole in the metal door to make an opening. She often heats food too which none of the others seem to do. I guess it was just a larger version of the same skill. I think the person in the pic is a female. She stands like a female. And not a female from our generation but like one of those adventurous women from the 40s who went to Africa and everything. Any way that's what it reminded me of. And I was reviewing the steps of the hero journey as given in the summary. Step 6 is Trials. I think the communication blocks between L and M are part of this step and she must strengthen her character to demand honesty (both on her part and Max's, 'cause she hasn't been entirely honest with him) to past the test. Step 7 is Into the Belly of the Beast. Do you think Liz's changes could be her entering that mythical world? It says she must enter the stronghold of the enemy... perhaps the enemy is the moral courage to use the powers for good not evil. The power comes from within, the evil comes from within..... Don't know. What are your thoughts? |
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Posted 02-08-2002 12:50 AM by Zero
ALexis, Met, and anyone else who is wondering - that is definitely a picture of Amelia Earhart behind Liz in her room. She also has one inside her Crashdown locker. I don't know if this is a Liz choice or Shiri since the actors have some say in their room decor, but it is fitting to the Liz character!! Zero |
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Posted 02-08-2002 09:19 AM by Philly
Hi all-I hope you dont mind me popping in.I read your thread quit often and find it fascinating.I never have anything to add because you all our so thorough and imaginative. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The picture in Liz's room I believe is a photo of Amelia Earhart. She was one of the first woman pilots and the first female to attempt to fly around the world in the late 1930's or early '40's.Unfortunately she died under mysterious circumstances over the South Pacific when her plane went down.Her body and the wreckage of the plane has never been discovered.Anyway she is considered a true female hero in aviation and woman's equality.I think Liz really admires strong woman such as Ms Earhart and the female professor she mentioned both to Max and in her Harvard interview. oops you beat me to it Zero but I am glad I was on the right track. I forgot Liz had an Earhart pic in her Crashdown Locker too.Thanks for all your hard work. [ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: Philly ] |
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Posted 02-08-2002 11:40 AM by Alexis
Are those horse stickers on the mirror? IMAGE: www.theddd.com/ch/ch61.jpg Zero—interesting theory on the time shift that Liz may be experiencing. Maybe Max, Michael and Isabel always experience something like that but they are used to it. Liz is still adjusting. “Brain Power” comment by Pa Parker is also a good catch! Further proves that Liz should have more mental abilities! I watched the ep again last night (my roommate had to catch up) and I too noticed the doctors comments about being honest and being hurt/catching something from someone you love. 16. Loved the look Max gives Kyle when he comes into Liz’s bedroom with Kyle and Liz in it together. A Major Unresolved Issue! Notice that Liz still has her Amelia Earhart picture behind her!! Yippee, about Amelia Earhart! I love when someone agrees with me! I was thinking it was her. She was a brave woman. But, she did disappear. Any relevance? |
Posted 02-08-2002 11:52 AM by shapeshifter
quote:me too quote:I think I woke up in Decatur IL with Meatloaf's bass player in 1971 or so when Meatloaf wasn't the official name, and remember roomates going repeatedly to the RHPS in 78. Is this possible? Especially since I was like Liz in HS. Am I busted? Okay, here's what I found at http://www.wpe.com/~musici/essay.html : quote: |
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Posted 02-08-2002 04:31 PM by Zero
Shapeshifter - Thanks for pulling up that info about Meat Loaf and the song! Interesting choice don't you think? Zero |
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Posted 02-08-2002 05:24 PM by GraceKel
Hey Fellow Liz Mythers---Metaphysicalgrl thanks for the lesson on Medusa---but the word SNAKES is important too so so the alarm went off in me for something LOL!!!! Alexis you and I were finding the same things, isn't that so funny. Nemo-thanks for the Laura Holt stuff I knew that name seemed familiar couldn't place it. Shapeshifter thanks for the MOOSE info--yes I was like hey what happened to the horses??? But this season they have been hanging around Maria (who earlier this season I thought was acting more like Liz than Liz was) Mezz--I read your post too about how that Liz and Max could have jumped back together quickly but are now realizing its not that simple--yes it makes sense as well. Zero been a long time since we have had such a long post from you LOL!!! But I thoroughly enjoyed all your observations, I too noticed that BRAINs and TALENT in your baby finger than all the kids in Roswell and later Liz telling Maria that. As for the TOP DOLL--yes I noticed new and used but I must tell you the first thought that came to my head on that was that Maria is used(not virginal) and Liz still is---eeeekkkkk---can't help it thats just what popped into my head. This reminded me of the TOP V or TOP VALUE sign shown in Sexual Healing eppy while Liz and Maria chat in the car. Interesting specs on the collective c's from the books Zero and some time shifts or whatever, could be, something is sure happening. Okay I have a question maybe someone can answer in the classroom they show a chart on the wall Mr Seligman's ap bio class-----is there an animal shown on this chart--like a black cat???Maybe? I could be wrong can't see it that well but anyone else, can you look and tell me what you think? And anything else you can describe from the chart too please LOL!!! Starbox all your mirrors are back!!! |
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Posted 02-08-2002 05:28 PM by GraceKel
One more thing I forgot to mention was the very strange appearance of the word mayonnaise in an auto parts shop when Kyle and Liz were talking---extra mayo, hold the mayo, now mayonnaise--whats the meaning--I don't know but....it was so out of place in an auto parts shop I thought it was worth noting. |
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Posted 02-08-2002 08:48 PM by shapeshifter
GraceKel, Yes! I knew "Medusa" reminded me of something! sssss And can anyone think of Maria going to NY and not picture a showdown with Billy and Rath? Zero, Execellent post! I think you covered it. Now I'm inspired to rewatch for my 3rd time before my daughter gets home from the dance. |
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Posted 02-08-2002 09:13 PM by Kal-el
Ok, I watched the ep another time, and I noticed a few things I didn't before. Not really theories, just observations. 1. Those instances where Liz's hearing/vision/senses went wacky(like with Maria or the Harvard guy). Mostly you hear a heart thumping sound. But there also seems to be giberish there. After hearing the giberish a few times, I notices it sounded like actual words. I don't really have the attention to detail necessary to find out what those words were, but I could swear I heard the word 'Max' during the Harvard guy's gibberish. How would he know Max? Or, maybe, it wasn't his words, but Liz's thoughts. Something buried in her subconsious. Or maybe some message she's reading from someone else, which backs up my telepathy theory. 2. Ok, this technically was only brought to my attention by the episode. When Michael said 'you read the thing about ten times' regarding the destiny book, I thought to myself "how many pages were there"? So I went back and watched 'Max To The Max', and found there were only four pages. Not only that, but the way it was binded, no one would notice if there were pages missing. It seems to me that, if Tess and Nasedo were really out to get the other three aliens, they might have made measures for them to believe the two of them. Is it possible that they removed pages from the destiny book, and hid them somewhere? I guess that the 'family tree'(aka the 'four alien faces') page is...odd looking. I would think that it would be on a double page spread if it were that important. The question is: do you think they purposely got rid of the second half of that? About the powers: It seems to me that each character has the same powers, but they include an 'extra' thing to it to make them unique. I've also noted that each character's 'exta' ability accomadates that theory(the name escapes me) regarding the different parts of a team. I read it on a 'Fantastic Four' board and it got me thinking. The Heart- Max. He can heal people, and can protect people(his shield). Also, unlike the other two, he has never killed. Or has he, if he has I can't remember(the unsucessful time in Departure doesn't count). The Strength- Michael. Unlimited power and courage. The backbone that, though you wouldn't realize it, actually holds the group together. The Passion- Isabel. The 'fighting spirit' of the group. Though Iz isn't my favorite character, I'd admit that she fits this spot. Her 'dream walking' is a way of seeing in people's emotions. and finally... The Mind- Many people have admitted that Liz is, in fact, the most intelligent character on Roswell. That being the case, she fits this position. The mind is usually the 'planner' who links the other three sides together. Note: it's also closely connected with 'the heart', where the two sides share the possition of 'leader'. That being the case, I believe Liz's position as the 'mind' of the group shows what her 'extra' ability is. And I'm not talking just the astral projection either. If this is right, she should have access to several mental abilities. Astral projection, telepathy, telekinetic powers, extended empathy...heck, she probably can duplicate Tess' 'mindwarps'(which is actually a fancy way of saying 'mental illusions', only more damaging to the victim). |
Posted 02-08-2002 10:27 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Trying to mesh this with TEOTW: FM told PL that (1) they needed Tess's strengths for their survival and (2) the problem was that Liz wasn't allowing herself to change. --Anyone have more thoughts on this?
And Zero, YES! The failed healing in the desert sets up Liz & the stones so they look like your Avatar! |
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Posted 02-08-2002 11:52 PM by GraceKel
Hey Mythers--back again with a few more crazy theories, oh well, you guys can take it--and Shapeshifter--yes we all know the importance of snakes don't we LOL!!! I just want to play the what if game here for a bit--but suppose this isn't the real Max but a shapeshifter of Max----now we know that in 1959 a shapeshifter was involved in a triangle with the lead actor and actress in the movie and he ended up FRYING her with his freak lightening strike----geez it made me think of that scene in the desert when Max goes to touch Liz's face and she starts electrifying and Kyle says "do you want to kill her?" Of course this isn't a full force strike but wonder if it could be? As I look at the scene with Liz's face disappearing in the mirror, I notice they show Max there in the mirror the whole time as well--now if this were a shapeshifter who also could have mind warping skills, he could have made Liz see that. Also if you look at the scene on the bleachers--they show the flag teams doing practices spinning the blue and yellow flags---the spinning motion reminded me of the spinning motion Liz was seeing with the Harvard guy---but was this really the Harvard guy? If said shapeshifter was posing as the Harvard guy he could also cause Liz to have that episode in the office. Okay back out on the bleachers, sorry my mind jumps all over the place---I noticed that Max grabs Liz--and then she half faints and when she goes to reach for her book, he ALSO touches her as she touches the book and it goes up on fire, he puts it out----did anyone notice the huge snake looking E on the blue book there--hey no kidding go look LOL!!!! Well I am not saying I fully believe this but hey it doesn't hurt to throw ideas around. |
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Posted 02-09-2002 02:32 AM by Norma Bates
I did some research on the brain. When Max healed her, he had one hand behind her head by the brain stem and later when he did the reverse connection his hands again were behind her head. I don’t know how to place pics so please behr with me… In the area where he had his hands, the area of the Cerebral Cortex that controls vision and a little above that is visual interpretation. A little above and toward the center is where hearing and taste is located. Touch divides hearing and taste and continues up to the top of the brain. Smell is more low and toward the front of the brain. And furthest away is the Prefrontal Cortex that controlls problem solving, emotions, and complex thoughts. The brain works off of energy and magnetic forces (electricity). Aliens use energy to manipulate things and empower their skills. Because of the changes in Liz’s mind and body, she might be producing too much energy for her body/mind to handle creating a power surge that results in sensory overload – first her visions in the mirror of her face disappearing and wall bang and also her later visions. The power surge seems to affect the areas starting from where Max placed his hands (vision) and gradually affected her hearing (voice disappearance and static and next in line… sorry, I had to ask "HEY DID ANY ONE HEAR THE WORD CHANGES WHISPERED IN THE MIRROR SCEEN?" I have a hearing loss and it sounded like someone was whispering “changes.”) then the sense of touch – the wall bang and the radio turning on (and next in line), Wernicke’s Area controls Language comprehension and Liz is geting a C in Spanish and AP History…(history is a lot of words and understanding sides), etc. until the surge hits the Prefrontal Cortex and Liz blows up at Max during the healing. I posted this at the another web page W/Th before I saw your comment, Alexis. I know I am rehashing some of what you say but I think it’s pertinent. A face is an identity. It is who we are in a visual sense. Perhaps her powers took her fears and uncertainties and manifested in that way. She is stressing over who she is because of these changes and what is going to happen. She's not an alien, she's not a hybrid, and she is no longer fully human. She doesn't know what she is now. She can't categorize it and she can't control it. For her, that is traumatic and a blow to all she believed in before. The changes are making her ill and the terror isn't helping. And then for Max to say that she needs to trust him, after all he's done to her, it was too much. If Max had not tried the healing alone, if the others had been there to help like they did Michael, probably she wouldn't have been so shocked and reject his help. Plus add her guilty feelings for pushing Max away and for Alex's death, (I strongly believe she hasn't told Max about FMax because she is afraid and because she promissed), she couldn't help her response. It brought all those guilty feelings back and perhaps, unconsciously, she felt she deserved to be sick. “Liz, wait.” His energy pulled her backwards and caused her collapse and power surge that caused her to start the book on fire? Kyle and Liz were talking about Max and the changes…Her powers surged again. Was she unconsciously reaching through her connection to Max for reassurance? Shiawon72 - I agree about the healing stone’s dust being absorbed by Liz. I have been working on some theories for the last 2 weeks that really fit in with this episode. I’ll post them a little later in an outline format. Edited because stupid forgot words. [ 02-09-2002: Message edited by: Norma Bates ] |
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Posted 02-09-2002 07:44 AM by honeybee68
I'm usually just a lurker on this thread (most of the theories here make my brain ache ), but there is something in the first scene of Tuesday's episode that I thought you all might find interesting. I don't know if it has already been discussed, but I noticed that there was a bottle of Tabasco sauce at Liz and Kyle's table. I rewound the scene a few times to scan some of the other tables at the bar, and no one else seemed to have any hot sauce. We know that none of the aliens had been there until Max showed up. Did Liz and Kyle request the Tabasco in advance for the aliens, or is something else going on? We know that Liz is going through "Ch-Ch-Changes"--does that also include her taste buds? Just some food for thought. honeybee68 |
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Posted 02-09-2002 10:24 AM by starcat
Thank you ZERO, While I have tapered off in my posting over the last year - this sight remains a beacon of hope and light - even through the 'darkest' of moments... I am not sure the following thoughts belong here so feel free to point me in another direction (ie. thread if necessary)... Re: Liz The current change that Liz is going through would have happened regardless of FM and and the whole Tess MESS.......they were happily married for many years in a 'parallel' universe thus they obviously faced this hurdle and survived. Question: Are they're any thoughts as to the reasons behind Liz's current changes? We know they seem to be triggered to a degree by her 'closeness' to Maxwell....I am sure all will balance out eventually but the wondering in this Dreamers mind is reeling....maybe Ava can offer some answers OR more conveniently Langly.... Thanks again for this oasis of sanity Zero, All te best, starcat. |
Posted 02-09-2002 01:55 PM by healersbabe
quote: YES!!!! I had ben thinking that for such a long time now that THAT is the problem...they tried to fix and alter the CURRENT timeline but her parallel universe is still running on the old one...this is creating a timeloop in Liz's current timeline and that might be why she is getting the electrical impulses like in that scene in "Back to the Future" where the parents start disappearing in the timeline? I think Liz is starting to disappear in this one . She keeps running on a loop because her timeline wants to go back to its original position. Did that make ANY sense ?!? Vih? Anyone? ANyone? OH OH and that fact they had already 'cemented 'in the other timeline eans that they can't break that bond apart or its going to be nuclear fission galore the spliting of those two atoms that are so strongly tied, even if against all odds...*boom*...so I just basically wanted to say my wannabe physics side of it all has me thinking that something is whats altering Liz. And I cried my eyes out when Max told Liz he loved her and she couldn't hear him...didn't that rainy window reind you all of that famous scene where he's holding her head and they're both watching the rain outside !!!?? - RD |
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Posted 02-09-2002 02:07 PM by GraceKel
Norma Bates--thanks for the cerebral cortex info being brought up again, we covered it pretty thoroughly during season1, nice to be brought up again after all this time. Also meant to mention your posts on what was on that tree trunk---will have to go back and look at that again. Honeybee--thanks for the tobasco sauce post, yes I noticed it on the table but didn't notice it missing from other tables--interesting. Starcat--interesting point about alternate time lines running, something Courtney touched on during Wipeout episode--the only thing I would disagree with is the changes happening before didn't seem to happen, Future Max seemed to indicate that Liz was part of the problem because she was not allowing herself to change--which makes it sound like these changes hadn't occurred in 14 years of bliss. |
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Posted 02-09-2002 02:09 PM by GraceKel
One other thing I forgot to mention that I noticed while Liz is having her interview with the Harvard guy if you look straight ahead to the door--a huge HANDPRINT is displayed either on the door or just outside of it. FinallyOverMax--welcome to our thread |
Posted 02-09-2002 02:49 PM by Norma Bates
quote: The point I was trying to get across was that her senses were being affected in order of what was closest to Max's hands while he healed her to the furthest away. The electrical current seemed to overload one by one in a repetitive order. I only saw Run, Lola Run once a while ago so my memory is rusty with names. In Lola's third try, she had to take a step back and spend more time with each obstacle before she got 2 steps closer and finally succeed. Ie - She knew the man that got hit by the car (bad), and recognized him and hitched a ride to hold his hand (slowed her down from her quest) but she ended up getting there sooner. She stopped the ambulance from hitting the window pane/crashing by changing the timing. She got what money she could (I believe she didn't ask her dad for it this time.) and went out of her way to the casino (slowed her down), gambled and won all the money she needed. etc. Perhaps this will be the third time around that seemingly bad things happen, and when Liz takes a step back (EOTW and Vermont), better things will result. |
Posted 02-09-2002 03:49 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Hey, Honeybee, Good thinking & hot stuff! Remember when Kyle ate Tess's alien food and liked it?
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Posted 02-09-2002 03:59 PM by *Phoebe*
quote: I agree that Liz is very important to the aliens. One day, she may even be like them. I hope so! |
Posted 02-09-2002 05:26 PM by Kal-el
quote: Also: would alcohol effect her now the same way it effected Max in 'Blind Date'? |
Posted 02-10-2002 11:22 AM by starcat
quote: You have taken my thoughts to whole new level and have given me more to think on - THANK YOU - I haven't been engaged in Roswell convo like this is quite some time! I am having a deja-vous!! Sadly though I must agree with shape-shifter who stated that a show on the bubble with limited time and budget most-likely won't explain or explore this avenue! Though I did read they were interested in following-up the series finale with a film?? (pipe-dream? who knows)... I am very excited to think that the actions of FM are having repercussions on Liz in the present (beyond the obvious) - realize that the use of the granilith for this purpose was experimental and they really had no idea what kind of consequences beyond supposedly 'saving the world'it would have!! At any rate you've got me speculating and wondering which is something I abandoned last summer - I've been rebitten by the Roswell bug as of late - just hope it won't leave me stranded again! take care, starcat. [ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: starcat ] |
Posted 02-10-2002 11:34 AM by starcat
quote:
FM stating she wouldn't allow herself to change is still an enigma for me - what exactly was he refering to? (other than the obvious) I am not sure - does it have sig - we may never know?! Thanks for the reply, starcat. |
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Posted 02-10-2002 04:12 PM by kla
Hi to all Someone mentioned Liz's Dads comment about her having more brains in her little finger than anyone else in town, and how Nascedo told the podsters that humans only use a small portion of their brain. We also have several theories about the time line between the present and FMax's time maybe being messed up, which I've always felt that the changes Liz and FMax made could have many repurcussions. What I'm wondering now is, could it just be that Liz's changes, or her powers she's gaining, are merely causing her to use much more of her brain, and when she experiences the difficulties in hearing people, maybe it is nothing more than her brain working way too fast. Like it's racing ahead of what she's hearing. When you think too fast, and what you say suddenly doesn't make sense because you've skipped ahead to where your mind is and left out parts. Only for Liz it's like her brain can't function slow enough to understand what they are saying. She would have to learn to control that or she might become so advanced that she couldn't communicate with anyone. (There was an episode of Star Trek similar to this, where they beamed on board a ship that seemed to be frozen in time. Actually, they were just moving much faster than the people on the ship and couldn't see any movement. To the ones on the ship, the intruders seemed like flies zipping around them.) Sorry, not sure what this might mean, but if Liz were to gain truly super human brain power, she would easily be the leader of the group, or at the very least, Queen material... My other thoughts also agree with someone else who suggested that a shapeshifter has taken up residence in Roswell and becomes whomever he needs to be to keep things following the right path. Or a particular path, such as keeping Max and Liz apart, because destiny says they are to be together and that's not in the best interest of Antar's enemies. Glad to see everyone back and theorizing |
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Posted 02-11-2002 03:09 AM by elenac
I have a question, can you actually see the stones explode? Because my ep on computer is just a little bigger than a stamp and can’t actually see the stones pieces. If this is true is bad, this means that the R3 have only one stone left, eventually they should need them to be healed. Will it be enough? ITA Reggie about your comment on Michael not being there when Max used the stones. But both Iz and Michael seem to have abandoned their roles as supporting sister and King’s second in command. They’ve never been there for Max in the quest for his son, for instance. Due to the fact that they weren’t invited to the NY summit? Or simply another example of the writer’s emptying characters? Or have they decided to stay on earth for good? We’ll see. Strange also the fact that Kyle was there, two former rivals at Liz’s bedside. It could have suggested that they (the three of them) would confront each other on the FM issue, but they didn’t. At least Liz’s pain about Max’s son came out, long due. It was simply unnatural that they didn’t explore this aspect and also unnatural showing us that she was at peace with it. Liz walks away from Max for the fourth time, and all the times it’s been related to Max’s destiny (King, former bride and its outcomes). The difference this time is that she’s doing this for herself. A sign of growth. I’m with Liz when she says to Max that he’s always been hurting her. Hurting is to remain motionless each time she walked away, even if I understand it was difficult on occasion of the fake sex with Kyle, even if he sensed something was wrong. Or his approach to Tess/son’s issue in Busted. In the last scene at the window, Max says “Don’t shut me out”. FM said that Max’s singing to Liz in TEOTW was because she had shut him out. I wonder if this has some meaning. [ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
Posted 02-11-2002 07:31 AM by Norma Bates
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Posted 02-11-2002 08:02 AM by haniczka
Originally posted by elenac: Liz walks away from Max for the fourth time, and all the times it’s been related to Max’s destiny (King, former bride and its outcomes). The difference this time is that she’s doing this for herself. A sign of growth. elenac, I think you've touched on something very profound here. It brings back the memory of a tearful Liz on the balcony with Alex. She wanted to get away from Roswell so badly to follow her own dreams. She asked Max in the eraser room if he'd consider leaving with her, and he said he couldn't but that she should "grow". She handled this by "eating" her problem (in mustard) rather than addressing it. She's been languishing ever since. I agree with you that she leaves for Vermont for herself, not just to get away from Max, but to restore the balance in her life - perhaps to regain her face in the mirror and real goals/dreams for herself. Since S3 began, she said she doesn't have dreams any more, so this "retreat" to Vermont is long overdue. Kal-el, I never thought about the fact that the Destiny book is only four pages long. Was Alex's translation that short? Whatever happened to his translation, by the way? Is that what they've been using? There's a lot about this reference resource that is suspect (Yes, I know we've discussed it in depth!). Too bad it's almost all they've got... (of course there's Kal and Ava, but it's easier to dig in the dirt for answers...lol) -HH [ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: haniczka ] |
Posted 02-11-2002 11:05 AM by StephStephSteph
quote: Looks like we'll have to get our angelic Liz to take a drink and see! |
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Posted 02-11-2002 11:36 AM by jero
Wonderful Mything everyone I just got to see this epp for the first time on Saturday and haven't had a chance to rewatch yet, so I'm not really ready to myth just yet. Wanted to through this into the mix....I think it was Zero? who brought up the "Grasshopper" reference. This is what I remember....(please excuse spelling) In "Kung-Fu" David Carradine played Kaine, a Shau-lin priest who fled to the 'old' west after being accused of a murder that he didn't commit. (stranger in a strange land) The Grasshopper reference comes from when Kaine was a child at the Shau-lin monastery. Darn it! I can't remember the whole conversation, but he was talking to one of the Masters about the 'world' and the Master says to him "and how is it that you don't see the grasshopper at your feet?" (see what's right under your nose) After that the Master (and only that Master) called him Grasshopper. Is there any significance to Kyle, the religous one of the bunch, calling Liz (a student? of alien powers?) Grasshopper? I don't know but it is a VERY interesting parallel. One more thing my fuzzy memory keeps shouting at me... Wasn't Kaine from a Royal family? Something about his parents were killed and he was hidden in the monastery? Anyone else know? Later, |
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Posted 02-11-2002 12:07 PM by kla
Hi! Just two comments to make. To Kal-el regarding the 4 page book. I agree that the book seemed to have very thick pages, almost like stone tablets with very large print. However, those symbols must say alot, because if you go back and watch the episode where Michael hands the translation to Max on the bridge, it appears to be nearly an inch thick and possibly legal size paper. All we've ever seen was the first page of the translation and it appeared to be complete on that page. So, what was the rest of the pages? It looked like a manuscript for a play (my guess is it was really the script for Roswell that they threw the supposed translation on top of, just to give it substance). If that is what it was, then it just shows how the writers don't have any clue how thorough the fans are. Me, I want to see what's on the rest of the translation... Other point, with regard to the whole Liz and FMax issues. Someone commented on FMax's remark to Liz that he had to sing to her because she shut him out -- and now Max says "Don't shut me out." Could we be back in line for the same future that was coming before? Enemies coming to take over and no Tess's power to help stop them? What if, it was never Tess's power that they needed. Maybe they only thought that was the problem. Maybe it was Liz's power they needed all along. Maybe she never gained her powers in that timeline because she was always with Max. Maybe she has to be away from him to get the powers. Hence the reaction every time he gets close. Once she has started to get them, he seems to be interfering with the process. Maybe she has to be apart from him long enough to gain full use and control. Then they could be together without a problem. Maybe she was the one they needed all along to complete their powers. Then I would have to wonder if Tess and Nascedo's plan was a result of the changes in the timeline, or was she bad even in the FMax time? I can't see her leaving if her plan was to get pregnant and take them all back to Kavar. And that would make Alex's death a result of the changes. So we have a dead Alex, sex with Tess, a son somewhere, and enemies that are still out there somewhere. Doesn't sound to me like changing the future was for the best, unless it really is Liz that's a key... and maybe none of what FMax told Liz was even the truth...needing to keep Tess around for her powers could have just been an excuse to get Liz to do what she had to and separate herself from Max. I don't think Liz would have wanted to hear that she was going to get powers, and she needed to stay away from Max long enough for them to develope/evolve properly. Or that she's somehow supremely important to their survival... that would freak any of us just a little. Just some thoughts... |
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Posted 02-11-2002 02:22 PM by Zero
It is amazing what one well written and interesting show can do to bring out the best in the fans! I enjoy reading everyone's ideas so much!! I wish I had time to comment on them all!! jero - thanks for the info on "Grasshopper" - I never watched that show, but remembered that DC's character was called that?? I do think it is relevant - somehow. I also love all the paralelle timeline stuff. "X-files" recently had an episode that dealt with this idea (the killer figured out how to jump between them, and accidently caused Doggett to jump them causing his twin to pop into the alternative timeline - very interesting). Well, I'm looking forward to tomorrow night's episode to see if they can carry through with the excellence and storyline or not. I'm hoping we don't end up with another Iz/Jesse show - I'm soooo bored with that! I'm very curious to see how they deal with at Boarding School and Maria in NY. Maybe she will meet up with Rath in NY (okay - I realize that is unlikely, but wouldn't it be funny!! ). Keep all the great observations and thoughts coming!! Oh - and YES, we could see the stones explode on the TV. Zero |
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Posted 02-11-2002 02:26 PM by Reggie
Kal-el: About the powers: It seems to me that each character has the same powers, but they include an 'extra' thing to it to make them unique. I've also noted that each character's 'exta' ability accomadates that theory(the name escapes me) regarding the different parts of a team. We've parsed the podsters' powers here many times. My interpretation is that the guys are physical, while the gals are mental. Michael breaks things, while Max heals. Isabel reads from minds, and Tess "writes to" minds. Organizing it this way shows the four-fold nature of the team, as it was originally. And yes, I do believe that Tess was the victim of a mindwarp by Nikolas. The Skins had previously made unsuccessful attempts to ensnare Isabel, and Max. Third time's the charm! She was a valuable member of the team, in WR, S&B, and Wipeout. Given her abilities to mindwarp, how many of the present problems could be solved? On a related note, I think that Panacaea will be interesting for you all. (Seen it, and really enjoyed it. Been a while since that happened, eh?) starcat: |
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Posted 02-11-2002 07:28 PM by haniczka
Originally by kla: Maybe she(Liz)has to be away from him to get the powers. Hence the reaction every time he gets close. Once she has started to get them, he seems to be interfering with the process. Maybe she has to be apart from him long enough to gain full use and control. It's an interesting idea. I wish Liz had shown more complications ("symptoms"?) gradually revealing themselves these past few months. (Sorry to take a jab, but that would have required organization and fore-thought...). We've been led to believe she and Max have been in semi-close proximity since the beginning of the season, so why does she suddenly turn electrical out of the blue? Still, you present a good arguement for the logic behind EOTW, and that's quite an accomplishment! Reggie, an episode you LIKED??? Now I'm scared... -HH |
Posted 02-11-2002 08:15 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Wow, that's going to be tough to live up to. quote:Ah, but not entirely. Recall VLV and the wedding vision which he starts to tell her about at the prom. I think that by telling Liz 'too much' about their wedding, FM opened the door just a crack to the possibility of a dual existence without entirely dire consequences. |
Posted 02-11-2002 08:36 PM by Reggie
quote: <moaning softly> No. Not yet. |
Posted 02-11-2002 09:38 PM by Norma Bates
quote: I wonder if there wasn't some hints and if the neclace didn't help keep the symptoms under control. Max took the necklace back in "Behind the Music." Since then there has only been "Samuel Rising" (Christmas), "A Tale of Two Parties" (New Years), and "I Married an Alien" (spoof) so there wasn't a really good time to stick hints. Liz did seem to look more and more tired once the necklace was gone. |
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Posted 02-12-2002 08:51 AM by haniczka
Norma Bates, yes, it would be nice if there were some sort of serious consequences for removing the necklace. Could your theory tie in with kla's? -HH |
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Posted 02-12-2002 10:28 AM by SallyKins
Great stuff, everyone. I only wish tptb paid more attention to what is being said here. [ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: SallyKins ] |
Posted 02-12-2002 11:36 AM by StephStephSteph
quote: Makes sense to me! I've been wondering about the pre-TEOTW and post-TEOTW scenarios. How closely related are the events of life NOW in comparison to life THEN? Of course, FM said that everything after the whole Kyle/Liz/Max thing is different. "We determine our own destiny", so I have to figure that Liz's change now is completely unrelated to what would have happened then. In other words, she probably didn't go through this at all. Could it be because Max never slept with T in the other line and that connection with them has somehow affected Liz in this one? Could it be that her internal struggle with "spot" (tm Reggie ) has cause this change to esculate to a level of such intensity? Oh.. what will happen next... |
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Posted 02-12-2002 11:38 AM by GraceKel
SallyKins---welcome, we have been trying to INSPIRE the WRITERS for at least 2 1/2 years now, but I think we have FAILED sadly. |
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Posted 02-12-2002 11:56 AM by jero
At what temp does a ceramic plate melt? I know it's higher than a fork. The food didn't appear to have been heated to the same temp, it would have been black, charred. So does Liz only affect inorganic objects? During the healing, the stones seem to have moved by themselves. Max places all 4 around Liz's head. When they first light up 2 are down by her elbows, then they're back up by her head. Probably just all the takes to do the scene. When the stones explode, yes, you can see bits of something go flying outward. Could have been the stones OR the ground. Dominique LAZAR (lazer? Lazarus?) When she see's the label guy she called him "Chasey" not JC. She told Maria that she would be telling people that she "just turned 18" for the next 3 years. When Michael asked how long she'd be gone the answer was "best case scenerio, Forever.) The Harvard guy spins COUNTER-clockwise. (reverse time?) The question Liz couldn't hear that he repeated 3 times was something like..."Do you intend to return to Roswell to give something back to the community?" The handprint someone mentioned was on the wall opposite the door of the office. Ages: Liz was 14 in 9th grade... where I live that is the normal age to start 9th grade. Which means: Liz was born in 1984 ("Big Brother" anyone?) and she was 5 in 1989 when the aliens came out of the pods, same year she started Kindergarden, and dreamed of going to Harvard. Also if Maria just turned 18, her birthday would be in January or February of 1984. When they are digging, Michael says to Max "What are we 8?" That would refer to 1992... did something happen that year? Max says he needs the transcript, but the BOOK is present at the healing. Levitation: Michael and Liz... both were exhibiting electrical charges at the time of healing. I have always believed that the "Destiny" book was created and planted by Nasedo... but I'm sure you've gone over that before. When Maria and Liz 'close their eyes and be somewhere else', Liz says "A cafe in Paris". Wasn't Jesse's dream to propose to Iz also in Paris? Liz tells her dad, "My life is out of CONTROL". What was it she said to Whittaker? Something like 'life without control is not an option'? The bus: It appears to run over/through Max. (looks really wierd in slo-mo). On the front of the bus it says "MCI", a long-distance phone company. The side of the bus says "ANGUARD BUS LINES" It was mentioned that separation from the pendant may have caused the 'trouble' with Liz. Reminds me of SH when Liz says "Maybe it (the rash) came because we were away from each other for too long". The book Max gets to help Liz with her interview is "College Interviewing for Morons". The song at the end, "More Than Us" by Travis, has been mentioned. However there is a difference in the lyrics that were posted and the subtitling. The subtitling says "Another mask we unveil, but they don't know the soothing hands." I've listened to the song 5? times and it could be either lyrics. Sorry so jumbled. Later, |
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Posted 02-12-2002 03:39 PM by Alexis
Quote by elenac I’m with Liz when she says to Max that he’s always been hurting her. Hurting is to remain motionless each time she walked away, even if I understand it was difficult on occasion of the fake sex with Kyle, even if he sensed something was wrong. Or his approach to Tess/son’s issue in Busted. And it explains Liz’s reaction in the bleacher’s scene, when Max was helping her pass the test to go to Harvard even if this meant they would be far apart. Not exactly something a person in love would appreciate, even if Max’s intentions were good. I would have to disagree. Liz is the one that accepted the consequences of helping Max on the spawn quest. He never asked her to help. She did that on her own. I also avidly disagree that a person who is truly in love would want the person they love to fulfil their dreams, even if that means they would be apart for a few years. It was a sign of love that Max tried to help and I think Liz appreciated that. After all, that has been what Max and Liz are about for the most part: sacrificing for love.
This is a really great point! jero—according to my father, who worked in aerospace, corningware (which it looks like the dish was made of ) was developed so that the space shuttle pods (hee, pardon the pun!) could withstand the heat created when reentering the atmosphere. You are right that the food should have been charred. Another CHAD I suppose! |
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Posted 02-12-2002 04:00 PM by GraceKel
Jero nice observations you made, I missed the counter clock wise--reverse order LOL Thanks for the heads up on the Chasey--my hearing has been damaged from listening to loud music LOL!!! I was also going to post about the book College interviewing for MORONS---hmmmm this really bugged me the most------just like IMAA---Max was acting like this high and mighty SNOB with little value for humans---so the use of the MORONS again seemed like a jab----not something I would have expected from earlier Max Evans at all---but this type of attitude would to me be more in line with Tess feeling about humans, or Ed Hardings hmmmm. |
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Posted 02-12-2002 07:31 PM by healersbabe
GraceKel
quote: Well I do have some hope that Melinda Metz has somewhat done things right and perhaps would have thought out something a bit more logic than previous Roswell . Reggie if you read what StephStephSteph wrote you'll notice that Liz's timeline DID change, as did FMax's, to the point he disappeared. If you think about it her soulmate now is gone . Thats gotta have some repercussions on her timeline not to mention she was going to marry him which I pressume might not be happening anymore . But who knows JK might decided to sell himself out of himself and do it . ITA Starcat, lets just speculate for the love of speculating else I'll go get depressed . I wanna still try to see this in an enjoyable manner so I'll live like I pretend miracles can happen even in Roswell-land. I haven't read the entire thread yet so off I go ! [ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: ~FinallyOverMax~ ] |
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Posted 02-12-2002 09:14 PM by shapeshifter
Reggie: yes. I'm speechless. Can't watch it again now--maybe because of migraine, but not.
[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-12-2002 09:17 PM by shapeshifter
double post. anyone here remember when we used to be able to delete double posts? [ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-12-2002 09:30 PM by jero
You all are gonna send me looking for the SPOILER thread if someone doesn't post something soon! WHAT HAPPENED in tonight's episode???????? Later, |
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Posted 02-12-2002 11:23 PM by GraceKel
Hey two good episodes in a row, could this be a trend here? LOL!! Jero sorry I don't have time to post a full description of episode right now--maybe tomorrow-sorry. Hey STARBOX---did you see Tess's BED PILLOW on Eileen's bed???? I know you did---LOL!!!! |
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Posted 02-13-2002 12:21 AM by Luna G
Liz's importance to the alien mythology indeed. Look what happens when they let her leave town. |
Posted 02-13-2002 12:25 AM by Norma Bates
quote:
CONE TEMPS
quote: Something else occured to me after watching the episode. If you noticed, Liz knew when the dean was [ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: Norma Bates ] |
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Posted 02-13-2002 02:41 AM by shapeshifter
Just a briefly-up-in-the-middle-of-the-night pseudo spiritual thought on The episode: On the Archetypes on Roswell page you can see Liz wearing what I think are the same pants she wears in P: IMAGE: www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell//pants.gif --which have a "Sacred Heart" in the pattern, which is associated with the Virgin Mary. I'm not sure exactly how (symbolically speaking) this ties in with Max as a type of Christ--whether she will be like the Mary of Michelangelo's Pieta: grieving over the loss of her Son (in part since his death will mean she will have no sons with him), or if Liz, in her Specialness that we have forever tried to define, is merely an indication of Max's Specialness. But Max definitely returned to the role of the Christ-figure in P in that he:
This ep was clearly shot post-9/11 as indicated by the American flags in NYC. So I am guessing JK was expressing his own (and the nation's and much of the world's) grief over that event. |
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Posted 02-13-2002 06:48 AM by Alexis
I forgot that someone had mentioned (last season) that buses might be a symbol. Well, Liz took the bus to Vermont (who does that?) and she mentions riding the bus in her letter to Maria. Liz wanted boundaries in place, yet she broke the rules right away. The candle Liz lights before the dean comes to the room is red. The theme of coming home in a place that’s not home reminded me of that that is how the aliens felt as well. Be yourself and we’ll all get along fine. Any other meanings? When the aliens are convincing Kyle he shouldn’t come “TALL” of the word on the poster is showing. Max asked Valenti to look at him. But he didn’t ask Kyle. Why is that? Because he respects Valenti and he doesn’t respect Kyle. This blows the looking at Liz theory. Maria mentions “alien chaos” again. Did anyone else notice the moosehead in the “RAT” |
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Posted 02-13-2002 07:47 AM by Zara
Well, I tried to post something last night but had trouble getting it onto the thread. You know I loved Monk, so I was really sad about that. He was good enough for a Monk appreciation thread. Did Liz' luggage remind anyone of her old tapestry coat? They had a rather long shot of it as she was arriving at the school. I would like to know more about Mr. and Mrs. Metachem, of course. One thought I kept having last night -- is Liz becoming Max's protector? It seems to me that her illness could have been an alarm of sorts that Max was in danger. He definitely became vulnerable when she left town. Also, I haven't heard this expression since about the fifth grade, but I believe the old phrase is "LOVE is the panacea for all ill." Can love bring Max back? Does Liz love him enough to bring him back? Tune in next week, same bat time, same bat channel... |
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Posted 02-13-2002 09:21 AM by hibiscuss
I haven't stopped by here in months but hearing about "Changes" (I don't get S3) I just where I wanted to go to an indepth view. hi everyone |
Posted 02-13-2002 09:56 AM by StephStephSteph
quote:
Gawd, do I really have to wait until the 26th now!?! |
Posted 02-13-2002 10:40 AM by elenac
quote: Alexis Hi! I was referring to Max’s lines about Tex: “meeting someone like me attracted me and I had to go for it” and about the son: “are you still holding on to that?” I also avidly disagree that a person who is truly in love would want the person they love to fulfil their dreams, even if that means they would be apart for a few years. It was a sign of love that Max tried to help and I think Liz appreciated that. After all, that has been what Max and Liz are about for the most part: [b]sacrificing for love. [/QUOTE] So you are suggesting that, being fond of this couple, I'm bound "to suffer" along with them? BTW, talking about the interview for Harvard, from your experience, will she have another chance to be interviewed or is it just it? Because, unless Liz’s second best choice college is further away than Harvard, she’ll have to stick around. Thanks Norma Bates et al. [ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
Posted 02-13-2002 12:34 PM by Metaphysicalgrl
quote: Again, it's all about the Balance. Liz's physical symptoms could very well be because 'The Balance' is out of sync. RIVER DOG: Nasedo gave me these stones. They're from his place. And they carry an energy inside them. MAX: You mean, these are from... RIVER DOG: Wherever you are from. He said that his body carried the same energy that's in these stones. He called it the balance. He said that the heat from the sweat disrupted it in some way. MAX: How? RIVER DOG: He told me to hold the stones until my energy activated them. And the balance would be restored. MAX: And if you didn't? RIVER DOG: He would die. ISABEL: So let's get going. RIVER DOG: He warned me, though, there was a risk. The balance can pull you in. It's a force that can change both your body and your mind unless you navigate it properly. Now, clear your mind...and drink from the bowl. Don't change the way you feel about your friend, and you'll come out on the right side. When Max healed Liz, the 'Balance' entered Liz. The whole idea that Liz and Max are out of sync, and the fact that the anger she had at what Max did is beginning to surface - she is not able to repress it any longer, has resulted in a change in the way she feels about Max. Liz is not coming out on the right side -- remember, the balance is a force that can change both your mind and your body if you don't navigate it right. Obviously, that's what's happening here. {~}:} |
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Posted 02-13-2002 01:50 PM by c. mccoy
I woke up with a thought. While I know there's not a chance it will turn out this way because TPTB aren't that creative, I thought I'd offer my thoughts anyway. Everyone KNOWS there's a special bond between M&L that runs very deep. This has been guessed at since the Pilot. 2 of the most popular opinions are a.) Liz, like our R4, has lived before &, is in fact, an alien but for whatever reason she's just now developing powers due to Max's deed in the Pilot and b.) While Liz - or her essence - did indeed have a role in Max's past life, she was never truly an alien. It's also entirely possible one of Liz's ancestors lived on Antar. I agree with B. Here's where my idea differs with what's been discused. I believe Liz was cloned & sent with our R4. Of course, that would mean Liz was adopted which has been discussed here. What about Max's vision of leaving Tess behind in the Pod Chamber? Why didn't the Dupes have another version of Liz instead of Ava? The answer to the 1st question is obvious. Mindwarp. It may have been Liz he was leaving behind. What happened between the time of that vision & the time Liz was adopted may stay a mystery. As for the 2nd one, there are many possibilities. If one of Liz's ancestors was Max's - or Zan's - true love in that other life, it could be that humans are harder to clone than aliens. They may not have had enough time to make another. They may have had to settle for Ava, creating the Hybrid version & hoping that littte bit of humanity would temper her attitude. The leaking pod - which most of us believe was Ava's - could've been instrumental in Ava developing more human than Tess. What about our Tess? Tess is.....well, Tess - or the true blue version of Ava. Tess may never have died. I have no doubt Naesado raised Tess. They're too alike. Who said he raised her on Earth though? Tess always seemed much older than the others to me. That could be attributed to living with Neasedo but it could be the above reason too. The Momogram may truly have been talking about Liz in Destiny. S. Harding and, possibly, Grandma Claudia fits in somewhere, I just don't where. I need to watch the UFO Convention again. Carefully. How did the Max, Liz & Tess triangle play out on Antar? Why was the Granolith so important? If Tess isn't a clone than how did she get here? If Liz truly was reincarnated somehow & was such a threat to some evil plan, why didn't Naesado or Tess just kill her? I don't know the answer to these & other questions - even if my little theory is believeable(which I think it is). There are so many CHADS, I don't even think a Joss Whedon could fix the mess JK has created. |
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Posted 02-13-2002 02:19 PM by StarBox
:waving: Hey GraceKel - and a BIG virtual hug to all my old myther friends who welcomed me back so warmly! I FEEL the ! LOL! Kudos for the pick-up on Tess's bed-pillow - I was totally getting a Tess-vibe from her roomie. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Re: Liz's pajamas - they were different from the sacred heart ones - these had some fruit - I thought at first an apple but I am not sure - maybe a plum?? And a sprig of pine that was really prominent. Pine represents immortality but more specifically - the symbol of the god (Attis) who died and was brought back to life. Attis and Cybele worship was closely tied together and became a religious cult unto itself. Cybele was the great earth mother goddess- she gave birth to the four elements (making her the symbolic fifth) - her lover - Attis - was killed and then resurrected. Cybele is associated with images of trees, flowers and lions. Anyway - once again - there is symbolism of Liz/Max as god/goddess or king/queen - whatever you will call it. Thought it was interesting that she would be wearing images of PINES (and drinking BTW - the Cybele cult was very hedonistic) at the time of Max's "death" - and I am sure he will be resurrected somehow and I will bet that our Liz is a major player - although I am actually spoiler free - but this is ROSWELL - they cant really kill off Max. BTW - off topic - but I have thought Max has looked BAD this season - he has looked like he has the flu or something - "off" somehow - but last night he actually started to look Max again (well - at least until the end). |
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Posted 02-13-2002 03:17 PM by Alexis
Hi Hib! Hi to you, too, elenac Well, if you were referring to the whole cop out line “She was like me and it was something I had to try” and the “You’re still not over that line” than I agree. :vomit: That was so out of line! The writers were smoking crack (either that or it took them this many episodes to realize what Max and Liz’s characters really are) and I would have walked away if he had said that to me. Yes, we’ll all have to suffer with Max and Liz. Especially now. Anyone wonder if the writer’s will show the guilt Liz must feel since basically after she helped future Max, both Max and Alex die because of it. At least in the other time line she and Max were happy for 14 years! As far as getting into Harvard, Liz could have very easily explained that she had felt dizzy and sick and was trying to avoid throwing up in front of the interviewer. She did go to the doctor, so she has “proof.” Not that they would ask her for a doctor’s note, but still. Of course, in regular job interviews, it generally doesn’t help you! |
Posted 02-13-2002 03:31 PM by Zara
quote: I'm with you on that one. Liz was in the room and Mommy could have been speaking about her. Tess could have been just catching a wave, so to speak. IF the mommogram was even real! It could have been a big ol' manipulation, of course. |
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Posted 02-13-2002 03:37 PM by hibiscuss
Hey Lexy I think alot of things are going to be left unresolved unless they deal with FMax. Liz has, by her actions changed the future, as a result, yes they did find out Tess is a traitor but Alex lost his life, now Max has as well. Surely if ever there was time to address FMax's visit it would be now. I'm also wondering how she will see her place in the unit. With Tess gone will she feel she has to step up to fill what we know is her rightful place? forgive me if this question has already been asked. [ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: hibiscuss ] |
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Posted 02-13-2002 04:05 PM by hibiscuss
Zero I read your post on the first page, wow, I can catch up on the episode just by reading it I get so caught up in the posts when I get here. I’ve read some interesting things on the changes in Liz. Fmax did say she wasn’t allowing herself to change. Could it be that he was telling her her “powers” could have been developed earlier? That she could have helped them complete the unit in their fight against their enemies? Please behr with me since I haven’t seen the epi but this is brining to mind Max and Michael’s experiences with alcohol. Michael’s experience was worse than Max because he drank more I believe so obviously alcohol is like a poison to their system. Could there be some sort of outside interference that is acting like a poison to Liz’s system, something someone is doing to her that is bringing all these abilities to the forefront? Will the same thing happen to Kyle eventually or could it be that these abilities lay dormant in Liz all along and are now coming to light because of this outside interferance?
quote: I’m reminded that Liz wants Harvard and Max feels the rest of them are stuck in Roswell. He loves her, maybe he doesn’t want to feel like he’s holding her back. Liz helped Max when it came to his son I think because she figured it was an issue that could tear them apart. That if she didn’t she would lose him to his son, this way this part of his life isn’t closed to her. Maybe for Max he knows Harvard will take her away and he figures it’s either be a part of this or see that side of her closed to him. Norma Bates d your post on page. I just wanted to add one more thing. Max and Isabel said they could sense Michael, they never sensed Tess. Now I have to wonder, Liz senses that Max is gone, will Michael and Isabel? Could it be that all four of them are connected now? Just posting my thoughts as they come along. hope nobody minds. [ 02-13-2002: Message edited by: hibiscuss ] |
Posted 02-13-2002 09:08 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Meta, YES!! I believe you have hit the proverbial nail on the head! It fits perfectly. |
Posted 02-13-2002 09:16 PM by Reggie
quote: Oh, foo. It's easy: she's at a school already! Let it also be a prep school- next year, or the year after that, she can get a transfer into Harvard with Advanced Placement. She may even be better off that way: she won't have to suffer through weed-out courses, she'll have real teachers that actually teach. In coherent English, even. |
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Posted 02-14-2002 02:44 AM by meg25
Hi guys!!I haven't been here for a while for in some point or another...the end episodes of Season 2 just gave me a hard digesting everything but my belief of Liz's importance to Alien has always been there The great thing that I've been waiting for so long was the transition of Liz's character and finally ChChanges did just that.. I'll be back later |
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Posted 02-14-2002 06:40 AM by GraceKel
Hey Fellow Liz Mythers---a few observations and questions... That file on Michael G--wasn't that the same file from Phillip Evans office? When they showed the shoe prints, I remembered clearly them showing Max's bottom of shoe in desert in Changes---but I didn't think it was a match--why go through this big thing on shoes---will the shoe thing be important later? Dominique over the past couple of episodes keeps mentioning the PROS--the Professionals----now many of us thought we need professional help in To Serve and Protect last season--was a good thing? Maybe not in this episode they are clearly showing us that the PROFESSIONALS are trying to change Maria into something she is not-not showing this as a good thing at all--hmmm. On the board behind Mrs Wheeler---the red triangle bomb symbol????? hmmmm. I must mention again Tess' bed pillow--it jumped right out at me--and her little speech once a cheater, always a cheater, well this would pretty much be someone trying to tell Liz to stay away from Max now wouldn't it? And the FLASK(sorry spelling-not sure) reminded me of Blind Date--take a sip a little sip whats it going to do kill you----I would be leery of a flask---whats in the flask? Who made the flask? Its not like opening a regular bottle of liquor. Its funny cuz Liz came to boarding school to find some discipline and boundaries, but I don't think she is truly away from the alien chaos at all---by the way EILEEN sounds so much like ALIEN--its screaming LOL. |
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Posted 02-14-2002 06:45 AM by GraceKel
I noticed someone already mentioned--the word TALL behind Kyle---and remember Max saying well some of us are taller than others---so does this mean that Kyle is TALL? And what does this mean, is Kyle SUPERIOR? |
Posted 02-14-2002 09:19 AM by Nemo
quote:Or Ms. Topolsky's? |
Posted 02-14-2002 10:29 AM by StephStephSteph
quote: I love it! Great thought! |
Posted 02-14-2002 10:32 AM by StephStephSteph
quote: I thought about that! Actually, it appears as if there's one file of Michael that goes around to everyone - Topolski, the FBI, Mr. Evans and now Farrah! Saving money on props or intentional for the shows plot!? |
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Posted 02-14-2002 12:30 PM by haniczka
GraceKel, excellent observations as usual! I thought the file was the same one myself, and I wondered if the timing was not a coincidence either. The reporter/Jesse's friend suspected Michael of being an alien, leaves town under hostile circumstances and now all hell breaks loose with that file in the center... The shoe thing got me thinking about one scene last season where Tess and Max were sitting on the couch (I think it was in BIY) and the camera was focused on the bottom of Max's feet as they rested on a table in the foreground. It was odd and I mentioned it at the time. I wondered if it was a play on bigfoot or something. Maybe it ties in somehow? I definitely agree with you regarding Liz's behavior in the school. Drinking from a flask is dangerous, especially since her body is so clearly "off balance" (Yes, excellent post Meta!). Eileen and Alien are curiously similar. wierd. What about Liz saying she needs the controlled environment, but then she promptly goes out of her way to break the rules big time? What's up with that? Her life is still out of control. Final observation: the Mr. M. elderly gentleman seemed to be eminating evil. Did he suck Max dry? Max must have been weak from the procedures with Liz and Valenti. Did Max's body simply fail under the impossibility, or did that man assist him in losing his life energy? Maybe even Mr. Khivar found another worm-hole and sucked the life out of his enemy? No matter what, that Mr. M. guy is definitely bad news. -HH [ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: haniczka ] |
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Posted 02-14-2002 03:34 PM by c. mccoy
boy, this thread hasn't hardly moved in the last 30 hours. Did everyone go to the spoiler board, read the spoilers from Hell & decide to leave? If you haven't you might want to think about. Those horrible things may be a good sign. Last season we had great spoilers & a hellaticous ending. Maybe this time it'll be the other way around. Keep dreaming, c. mccoy. |
Posted 02-14-2002 07:25 PM by Reggie
quote: It's possible. Even our Zero has turned up over there. Like my sig line says... Were you the person who said that the last few eps were getting a Major Re-write? If so, can you tell me (not here, of course) some details? E-mail is good. |
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Posted 02-14-2002 08:55 PM by shapeshifter
ITA on GraceKel's excellent observations as usual. My 13-year-old just watched it with me, and when they got the syringe with Michael's blood in it, she said, "O-o-h. They're going to clone." On another thread someone speculated that Max is now the old guy. The camera showed portions of the wipe off board behind Mrs. Fairchild for nearly 2 minutes, so I'm thinking it's signicant. Sorry, don't have a screen cap. Reggie, if you want to do one, email it to me & I'll upload it.
There are some pretty organic looking designs behind Max here: IMAGE: www.theddd.com/pa/pa58.jpg |
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Posted 02-14-2002 09:41 PM by GraceKel
Haniczka--I remember that shoe shot from BIY as well with the large round bubbles on the bottom of the shoes---and I think Nemo commented could Max's feet be cemented to the Earth with his feet being stuck to the floor LOL Actually a second glance at those shoe prints and I find myself wondering if it wasn't a match after all not totally sure though--please go look I must say though with that file there I would like to take a look at Jessie's shoe prints LOL Shapeshifter thanks for the extra info on the board--yes they seemed to show it for more than a beat so I thought it was significant too--but I couldn't truly figure it out. But of course the red bomb symbol jumped right out there. Two more observations--when the scientists(?) returned to the lab---one says no I am not a fan of HORSE RADISH just give me ROAST BEEF and MAYONAISE---hmmmm. Yes I do think there are clues with the food-I know many don't but too many references in episodes---have been unsuccessful in figuring out exactly what it all means though. Another thing I NOTED--was when Max found Jim in the closet--that flashlight was so blinding compared to the others---is Max's INNER LIGHT glowing brighter these days-LOL? There is probably no connection but I found it funny how Michael had a cut finger and the broken glass in that door. |
Posted 02-14-2002 09:56 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Wow. The opposite of Rath's taste. Too bad Rath wasn't there to waste those guys. |
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Posted 02-14-2002 11:25 PM by Zero
Hi All! I admit it - I'm now officially SPOILED!! I couldn't resist after Max's disintegration into dust, I was in shock - though I definitely think that something of a spirit transfer was happening there with all the yellow light waves and shaking going on. I so enjoy reading all your observations, and given that I'm now spoiled - I will keep my comments pure. But it took be so long to come over here because after spending last evening reading the L/M Spoiler Page I had a little exercise I had to do and post over there. I'll just say - IF you are curious, it is on the first page of the current L/M Spoiler Thread. Now to Panacea - My problem with the show was the timeline - couldn't get a handle on that - Liz and Maria seemed to cover more time than the Roswell group. Liz was on the bus for a week, and then, ... And the entire Morgan Fairchild stuff. So cheesy - B-movie-ish! I want to know how they got Liz's uniform without Special Unit connections and Agent Pierce not knowing. And if there was a connection with the Special Unit, then why wouldn't they know about MAX?? ("The Healer") I just don't think this entire storyline was well thought out. I'm not saying I don't find the storyline interesting - I do. I just think it should have been better thought out. Shapeshifter - I love your biblical analogy to the death of Max - and what has to be his resurrection. No way is permanently dead - I'm just curious to see how he is brought back from dust! I think the key is all the shaking and yellow light was some kind of transfer of "Essence" (Soul) - though that old guy (Clayton Wheeler) still looked pretty old when he was being rushed out of the room by MF. (I Grace Kelled it!) The special effects were cool! The circle of fire had 6 lines extending out from his body. Loved that Liz woke up with "Max is Dead" - a wonderful ending! Well - off to - and I'm sorry I broke down and became spoiled, but I will try not to let it influence my observations on this Thread!! Zero [ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: Zero ] |
Posted 02-15-2002 12:44 AM by Norma Bates
quote:
1. The circle of fire with six lines was reminiscent of the healing circle in The Balance except that one had 5 lines. |
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Posted 02-15-2002 01:09 AM by Norma Bates
Dare I post this like this? This is a combination of what theories are already present plus some of my own. I have this in outline format and it really stinks to try and post here because of formating problems. (I was writing this to help me keep track for a story I've been working on for forever.) This is actually several pages long so I'll post a little at a time. 1. Why were the NY 4 were warned against healing dying humans? Important Dates (courtesy Zero's intro): Engineering vs Healing: a. Engineering: 1. The idea – What do they want the product to do within specified limitations (size, weight, etc.) 2. Planning – 3. Programming -- The information/programming needed to “run” the product needs to be written and gathered and tested with the prototypes. 4. Prototyping – Samples are made to see if the idea is viable and to work out bugs. 5. Revisions – Changes are made to improve the product. The steps 1-5 are repeated until they get the desired results. 6. Finished product to be mass produced – or in this case, put in hiding on earth to await hatching.
1. The engineers had a high degree of control on the combination of DNA from the alien essence and the human donors. 2. They even set up controls on the NM 4 and the NY 4’s memories of their past lives? 3. The engineers made the adaptions and incubation take long periods of time to ease the stress on the hybrids and control the changes to a higher degree. |
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Posted 02-15-2002 01:17 AM by Norma Bates
Engineering vs healing continued: b. Healing: i. Healing those near death is a total wild card method and can be very dangerous to the person healed and to those around them.
a. Healthy/Normal brain (non stroke or old age where regenerative properties are minimalized. The brain must be able to adapt.) b. Healing starts the first connection and the changes.
d. The changes also depend on choice – |
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Posted 02-15-2002 01:19 AM by Norma Bates
c. Just an idea: What changes or powers one gets depends on exposure? (I need to see more of what powers the dupes and Liz and Kyle have.) This is a guess: i. Max - had the damaged pod that needed healing and perhaps they needed to erect a shield over the hole to temporarily stop the leak while they tried to move the pods somewhere safe in “Summer of ’47.” – Healing and his shield ii. Isabel – since she was the sister, she probably had a mental link to Max and the protectors were constantly monitoring her to gauge stress levels between her and her brother and his injured pod – Her dream walking is her version monitoring. iii. Michael – possibly although he was podded, he was probably nearest to the fighting when the ship went down and he picked up the skill. Because he did not have first hand experience to someone being linked to him and using the power like Max did to the healing and Isabel to the monitoring, that is why he didn’t learn the control. (See my speculations on the ship crash and the protectors.) – Power blasts. iv. Tess – since she was raised with a shape shifter and she is not a shape shifter, perhaps her Mind Warp is her version of shape shifting. She connects to someone else’s mind and “shifts” their mental perceptions instead of changing physical characteristics. v. Liz – her astral projection is a rare human skill. Because she has just started with the changes, this could be the first variation on the power to happen but her astral projection is different than normal astral projection. Max saw her in New York. She has changed enough to astral project with Isabel’s help and guidance. That would be Liz’s exposure to Isabel’s more developed Dream Walk and Max’s Healing skills which would also lead to molecular manipulation. Her ability to connect when her senses are heightened were most likely caused by the reverse connection Max made after healing. My guess is that these powers will appear more and more and adapt in time. |
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Posted 02-15-2002 01:31 AM by Norma Bates
2. The protectors: Important Dates (courtesy of Zero's intro): 6/14/1947 – Crash 6/24/1947 – 9 Disk-like objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA 7/4/1947 – Milton claims crash occurred 7/7/1947 – Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff who calls Roswell Army Air Field 7/7/1947 – Privates Timothy Mann and Frank DeMuzio find Privates Bill Fifer and Jim McCarthy near crash site
i. According to Pierce there were 2 aliens found dead and 2 alive, one of the 2 escaped captivity and the second’s fate is unclear as to weather he lived or died. ii. There could have been more protectors that survived the crash but the 4 were all that were found by the Army so it is assumed that there were only 4.
i. Kal watched from a distance but didn’t interfere nor trained them. ii. Kal was the same shape shifter from Blind Date that burned the photograph of them and walked slowly away. The jacket and the walk is similar to that of Kal walking quickly away after killing Joey Fernini. iii. Kal was River Dog’s Nesado. He did not kill Atherton though.
i. Ed H. was NOT the NY 4’s original protector. I think he tracked that protector down and killed him, taking over his place. ii. Ed H. was there to teach the NY 4 and then he left. iii. Ed H. did not know where Kal hid the NM 4. iv. Ed H. killed Atherton in Nesado’s form. v. See the Tess/Ava theory (it’s not new but please look at it anyway.)
i. He is not Kal nor Ed. ii. I do not believe Kal nor Ed knows of him. He seems to be hiding from them also. iii. I think he might have known about Ed H.’s betrayal. Please see my theory on Ed H.’s escape. iv. He might be the protector that escaped captivity. v. He only interferes when they are in danger and he does it without them knowing who he is. 1. Pretending to be Dr. Margolian. 2. He killed Hank because Hank found out Michael had powers. He didn’t interfere when it was just Hank abusing Michael. Hank wasn’t enough of a threat at that point and Michael had options. 3. He was there when Max and Liz woke up. He was watching over them and told them to go home.
1. A Mind Warp/Cloaking - When Tess mind warped, she always closed her eyes. Could it be not only to help with concentration but because sight becomes distorted and distracting? I think this is most likely. 2. The Alien Version of Astral Projection – Usually in humans, other people can’t see the projected spirit. 3. Hitch hiker – the alien hitching a ride from behind someone else’s eyes. (The welder at school, a rodent in the desert, etc.) 4. Alien vision from their natural form.
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Posted 02-15-2002 05:24 AM by GraceKel
Norma Bates don't have time to really READ your post yet, but will later Zero--I am totally Spoiled too, always have been but it has never influenced my clue finding, I always try to analyze what I see on my screen despite what spoilers say, and often it conflicts, but I see what I see and that is it. Spoilers many times are false, they change, or they can be absolutely accurate but as I said, I look for clues in an episode only whether its meant to go anywhere or not is anybody's guess. |
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Posted 02-15-2002 11:00 AM by Zero
Norma Bates - Great job analysing and trying to logically understand how things fit together! I wish the writers would do the same thing before they plot out the future episodes. Grace Kel - Thanks for the advice on spoilers. I realize that last year the spoiled were really jerked around, and I was glad to not be one of them then because I hate to be burned like that. But I had to look this time. I'm a Polly by Spoiler standards, so - though I have been extremely disappointed by the lost potential with the writing of Season 2 and 3 - I always hope for the best. As long as Liz and Max are up-front, and that special connection between them is there - I will continue to watch - and make observations! And I am hoping for a Season 4 because even with the lost potential - there is still LOTS of wonderful potential - I have to believe! (plus, most of the shows I watch are being cancelled this year - I may only have Alias to watch next year if Roswell doesn't come back!) Zero |
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Posted 02-15-2002 01:23 PM by c. mccoy
Reggie: I'm one of the people that said they were doing major rewrites. The question is: Are the Spoilers From Hell the rewrites or(Oh, please God!)is that the crap they're rewriting. I'm starting to believe what others have been saying: JK was NEVER the genius behind Roswell. Thania St. John & David Nutter were. And the reason they left was because JK was stubborn about taking this path to Roswell Hell. |
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Posted 02-15-2002 01:25 PM by Reggie
Well, Zero, I had to get spoiled before this season opened. After getting slapped in the face with "Departure", I decided that I wanted; no, needed advance warning. I was glad I had that with "Busted", and am glad to know how S3 is supposed to end. Although the ending does not please me at all. It does seem that the props and sets people are more "into" Roswell, and the mythology, than the writers have been. Shucks, it seems even the hairdressers have been following the "Dis-Tressed Liz" theory! It's sad, really... But I'm not going away just yet. There's one word, in one line, in one episode; that I want to see if anyone notices. And I'll probably stay in my seat until The End Of The Show. It can't really just end that way... |
Posted 02-15-2002 01:34 PM by Reggie
quote: Agreed. (Plus Melinda Metz, who should be in full outrage at this point.) Now they're on Smallville, and look at the sweetness of that. Taste familiar? But the Most Important Question is: who's telling the story? Is it still JK, and his ending; or has he been replaced by Fox (who said that the show wasn't cancelled yet)? If the latter, a modest change could make all the difference. If all else fails, the CHADDs' favorite show is Farscape (Sci-Fi Channel). It's really, incredibly good. Recommended! |
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Posted 02-15-2002 05:56 PM by Zero
Reggie, You and Met or Mel are who turned me onto Farscape, and I must say it is one excellent show!! After watching all the episodes over the summer, I'm up to speed for the new season that starts soon - April I believe? The writing and attention to detail on that show is wonderful!! I also admit to being a bit spoiled for Busted, but tried to stay unspoiled since - but Max's death made me lose my will power. But I will continue to Myth so long as I watch, and so long as Liz is around! Zero |
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Posted 02-15-2002 06:42 PM by shapeshifter
A fitting finale would be if Max came back as the guy who plays Clark Kent on Smallville, don't you think? |
Posted 02-15-2002 09:18 PM by starcat
quote:
I agree with you and am doing the best I can but we've been doormatts for so long now - believing in miracles where roswell is concerned can be hazardous to your mental and emtional health here goes - This bond Max and Liz have brought them together even before Liz was shot - as we learned -Max watched from afar and knew she was DIFFERENT!!?? If I am gonna put stock in miracles I've gotta believe that things happen for a reason - Max healing Liz was destiny/fate - Max falling from Grace with Tess was the result of manipulating time! Do Max and Liz have such a bond that regardless the obstacle - time travel, tess etc, etc - they are going to be together...I think of films where whether in this life or the next soulmates will find each other again... I loved the idea that the change Liz is currently experiencing may be something that did not happen the first time around and 'such' powers were needed in the future... Liz's current change is scary but necessary??! Who knows! Or have the actions of FM created a 'wrinkle in time' with UNNATURAL repercussions (Alex's death, Tess and baby, Liz and electrical impulses?? ect etc..) I don't care that the world could end in 'our' Roswell fantasy as in my heart I'd be happy just to know that Max and Liz fought TOGETHER and for their love until the very end...bare with me BUT I am thrilled to report - LIZ sensed Max's death - not Kyle, not Valenti (hoping and praying TPTB will highlight the sig of this connection!) I hope we get to see Liz telling Max that I knew you were dead or in trouble etc..(for all intense purposes that is)... Thanks for all the replies! Take care, starcat. [ 02-15-2002: Message edited by: starcat ] |
Posted 02-15-2002 10:00 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Loved the pine stuff Starbox. BTW, OT, it's the meaning of my maiden name in Russian, so if anyone stumbles across an oil painting signed "Pinetree," it's from my youth. With the show on the bubble, JK has the opportunity to kill or not kill off the hero. If UPN had any hopes left for the show, it would seem they would be showing reruns of it & not Buffy right now. |
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Posted 02-15-2002 11:51 PM by Hellion
Hi everyone quote: Wow starcat what can I say but I am totally with you on this Us dreamers will overcome any obstacle in our path including some pretty stupid behaviour on Max/s behalf |
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Posted 02-16-2002 02:35 PM by elenac
This episode reminds me of a mini The End of the World, where one of them leaves, Liz, with her power: the intellect, and the enemy takes over. The king dies and Michael and Isabel are trapped into Meta Chem. We’ve seen Adam arrive there, probably to discover what his wife is doing. I’d love if for the second time he saves her, like he did with Khivar. He could become for Isabel a protector Liz and Max are for one another. Agree with what Eileen says to Liz about the Tex and the son. Technically Max didn’t cheat on her, but since they never stopped being a couple, technique doesn’t apply. Basically, I believe what they need is to forgive each other for not having believed in their love. Same mistake Fmax and Fliz made and their plan failed. Loved Max’s phone call to Liz, even if it seems he hasn’t got straight that her alien symptoms are directly related to him. Liked Maria walking away from Dominique, her song, turned into a dance music one, was awful and she’s the right age to be idealistic. Anyway, for the time being she has a future with the Kick Shickers We’ve also witnessed a new way Max used his healing power. He absorbed the old man’s age becoming an old man himself and then, through a process that reminded me of a nuclear scission, turned into dust. I was impressed. Liz’s last scene when she wakes up saying Max is dead, reminds me of a line Tess said in TWR, that if something happened to Max she would have felt it. Luckily on that occasion nothing happened so we couldn’t test if she or Liz o maybe both, would have felt something happened to him. Let’s hope next week’s episode will be up to this one and brings Max back. And why not, with Liz’s help. |
Posted 02-16-2002 02:54 PM by shapeshifter
quote:ITA on both of these points! quote:Good catch! [ 02-16-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
Posted 02-16-2002 03:12 PM by Reggie
quote: Well, we only saw Liz's reaction. It's possible that all the others felt it too. Which might explain something... On a completely unrelated note I've mentioned this thread on the L&M Spoilers thread. Some of them may look in here, and they're nice folks, so let's be on our good behavior, OK? Expect questions on the shooters from The Pilot, and "We've got to get rid of her." |
Posted 02-16-2002 03:43 PM by shapeshifter
quote:At the Archives, if they search "shooters" they will get 24 hits!! |
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Posted 02-16-2002 05:35 PM by GraceKel
Reggie---aren't the Liz Mythers ALWAYS nice LOL? We always welcome everyone and anyone to post their theories and ideas and as long as they don't mind reading some of our crazy ideas, too, well we get along beautifully. The only MEANY here is Jason Katims LOL!!!! By the way I don't think I ever mentioned how much I enjoyed your Liz's distressed hair theory--its hysterical!!!! As for what happened with Max at the end of PANACEA---well it reminds me of SHAPESHIFTING---now either Max Evans was ALWAYS a Shapeshifter and didn't know it, or a shapeshifter has taken over for Max--hmmm don't know which for sure. |
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Posted 02-16-2002 07:30 PM by haniczka
Norma Bates - I'm sure you've toiled over your theories for many moons! I was especially interested in your "Patterning in the Pods" theory: Originally posted by Norma Bates: Max - had the damaged pod that needed healing and perhaps they needed to erect a shield over the hole to temporarily stop the leak while they tried to move the pods somewhere safe in “Summer of ’47.” – Healing and his shield ii. Isabel – since she was the sister, she probably had a mental link to Max and the protectors were constantly monitoring her to gauge stress levels between her and her brother and his injured pod – Her dream walking is her version monitoring. iii. Michael – possibly although he was podded, he was probably nearest to the fighting when the ship went down and he picked up the skill. Because he did not have first hand experience to someone being linked to him and using the power like Max did to the healing and Isabel to the monitoring, that is why he didn’t learn the control. (See my speculations on the ship crash and the protectors.) – Power blasts I'm quite certain I've never read anything like this before. I was also interested in your thoughts regarding a third shapeshifter. Please carry on! Enjoying everyone's thoughts. Will add that after last season, I'll NEVER again get spoiled. Every spoiler I've ever read turned out to be better than reality, and that...that... well, makes me think of uttering profanity, that's what! -HH |
Posted 02-16-2002 07:42 PM by shapeshifter
quote:OOOooo! Yes! That familiar light! Maybe the old guy was an injured shapeshifter who needed Max's body? |
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Posted 02-16-2002 08:24 PM by Norma Bates
I don't think that this was mentioned and I thought it was strange, the items that Michael and Jim found in Meta Chem included... 1. The box of chocolates that Michael tried to sell in the sheriff's office in season one was there. Why and how did they know about that? 2. Why do they have a rowelled western spur? (As in horse back riding?) I don't remember Michael wearing spurs. 3. Ed H. was supposed to destroy the FBI evidence on the aliens. Out of all the evidence, he didn't destroy the dress, which was what started the whole thing. Merris said that they studied it for 2 years. Was that why Ed didn't destroy it, because it wasn't in the vault? Or did he leave it as a link back to Liz deliberately so that if he needed to, he could raise suspiscions of Liz's changes because of being healed. The FBI would have wanted to experiment on her to find out what the healing did to her if they found out. If push came to shove, it would have been a good way to elimiate the Liz/Max threat and it could be done without endangering M/M/I's identities just as long as he had eliminated all trace of their names. Plus he or Tess could do it without identifiying themselves to the FBI or the pod squad. The FBI could just come in and pick her up and make her disappear. |
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Posted 02-16-2002 08:51 PM by GraceKel
Norma Bates and Elenac both very interesting theories you have there, Norma I just noticed the CLUSTERS box myself LOL--I was wondering now how did they get a hold of that LOL---have they been to Michaels apartment. Totally missed the Spur hmmmmm. Okay something I noticed about Changes and Liz looking in the mirror---they show Liz seeing her face disappear in the mirror but then they show the audience seeing Liz touch her face and its NORMAL----this indicates to me MINDWARP-LOL Who is doing the mindwarping? |
Posted 02-16-2002 09:13 PM by Norma Bates
quote: I would have thought that the box would have been thrown out once the candy was gone. How many people keep an empty candy box for 2 years unless their using it for storage? Plus Michael was eating them at Max & Isabel's house. Not in his apartment. [ 02-16-2002: Message edited by: Norma Bates ] |
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Posted 02-16-2002 09:27 PM by GraceKel
Yes you are right Norma what was I thinking we are talking about candy that we saw in the second episode of first season--at the Evans house, long before Michael got an apartment hmmm. |
Posted 02-17-2002 03:23 AM by Hellion
quote: Gee we are not crazy -- We are just improving various story lines |
Posted 02-17-2002 04:00 PM by shapeshifter
quote:So when the Fibbies or Special Unit or Nacedoans or whoever ransacked Max's room? Helion, Yes, we are just making some home improvements. |
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Posted 02-17-2002 05:33 PM by healersbabe
Hey guys I'm still spoiled as usual so I can't really comment on anything other than JK didn't come up with the Roswell-ideas on his own I'd never have guessed ... What I do wonder is now that Maxieboy is dead and reincarnate (whether it be his own body or not) will he still have alien powers ? Elenac and GraceKel excellent points!!! ------------------- "The bitterest tears shead over graves are for deeds left undone, and words left unsaid..."~Harriet Beecher Stowe [ 02-17-2002: Message edited by: ~FinallyOverMax~ ] |
Posted 02-17-2002 07:19 PM by Reggie
quote: I believe the candy box and Tabasco bottle, along with the stuff they got from the Control Room, were for Michael's fingerprints: to be sure that he was the one they wanted. The dress could have been obtained illicitly from the FBI Lab, after they were through with it. Unfortunately, the (real) FBI Lab is no longer the paragon of virtue it once was; they've been caught doctoring evidence (etc.) in recent years. As for the spur: maybe it's a shout-out to the Lizlogists? How many posts do we have, just on horses? [ 02-17-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 02-17-2002 08:26 PM by shapeshifter
Reggie, "Lizologists?" I love it! A new name. So, do you think your hair theory could be expanded to the other pod folk & friends? And regarding the next ep's title, I don't know how this ties in, but evidently "Chant Down to Babylon" is a tribute to the late Bob Marley by a variety of artists. Anyone care to speculate on the connection. Hair maybe? Here's an interesting tidbit from Ros2: quote: [ 02-17-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
Posted 02-18-2002 05:58 AM by elenac
quote:. When Tess said that line she was with Michael and Isabel, who were afraid that a body on a stretcher could be Max's. Tess says: "We" don't know. "I" would have felt it if somthing happened to him. [ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 02-18-2002 07:55 AM by elenac
Gracekel - I also thought of a mindwarp when Liz started to have alien symptoms and when she couldn't see her face in the mirror. Could it be the same alien that carried out Alex's mindwarp from afar? In the books Max and the others could shapeshift, it would be nice if they bring it in the show too. [ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 02-18-2002 12:58 PM by Reggie
Originally posted by shapeshifter: So, do you think your hair theory could be expanded to the other pod folk & friends? Well, near the end of THC, or at the beginning of The Alex Files, I did notice that a certain curly-haired blonde was "going straight". As she was being written at that time, too; although eventually we were thrown some, ah... curves? on that curvacious character. elenac: Kyle maybe. Liz we've seen. Tess... probably? In the books Max and the others could shapeshift, it would be nice if they bring it in the show too. Whoop! Whoop! Whoop! [ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 02-18-2002 02:24 PM by Zero
Hi All! Yep - ESQ2B did ask Shiri at the signing, at my request, and Shiri did say she had read the notebook - supplied by our own Qfanny and friends last February. She also said she does lurk on the boards occasionally - anf ESQ2B told her about our thread. THANKS ESQ2B!! She also said that Shiri was incredibly gracious! I would have loved to have been there! Oh well ... As to shapeshifting - Reggie - I do agree that Harding told them they couldn't shapeshift LIKE him, but given all the deception, etc. involved with Harding and Tess, who knows if all he said was true and accurate. Also, we know that Mikey G was able to change is finger print to match the dead agent and the Dupes, Lonnie and Rath, were able to change their hair and "markings" to match Iz and Mikey G - so some types of shapeshifting is possible. SO - to avoid the CHAD all that would be needed would be a comment about what Harding had said and it not being truthful, or something to that extent. That is the fun of Sci-Fi - you can change the rules a bit IF you explain how - which unfortunately, the writers of Roswell often forget to do - thus, creating CHADS!! Hope all of you ar having an enjoyable Presidents' Day! Zero |
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Posted 02-18-2002 06:45 PM by Qfanny
Howdy all, I don't know why I've been so tired these last few months. A couple of changes in lifestyle patterns and it can really throw you for a loop. I thought I should let you know what my thoughts are on Ch-ch-changes. Believe it or not, I liked this episode. In fact, I thought it the best since Sexual Healing and I've watched 3x times now. I'm not please with Liz gaining powers. I've lost count the number or times I've explained my motto, "Liz is not an alien." I've always believe it unnecessary to give Liz powers as a way to overcome Destiny and put Max and Liz together. I've even agreed with a minority here and else where powers for Liz may not be a good thing. And there is satisfaction in being right. Now - that leds into the reason why I liked this episode so much. I can't make up my mind if I am happy with this obstacle to keep Max/Liz apart. Part of me thinks it's very anti-Roswellian to approve of such a non-dreamer storyline. The actors seemed to really enjoy acting in ch-ch-changes. I am more convinced my lack luster appreciation for Roswell is more or less the result of several lack luster performances. I keep on remembering how this team of actors made a believable storyline out of the ridicilously far fetched Pilot premise.... Even if the writing is, for whatever you believe is, it's nice to be sold a storyline again. Tuttles |
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Posted 02-18-2002 09:23 PM by shapeshifter
Qfanny! Good to see you! I know there used to be a song "You're Always Welcome Here." ITA that this was a much nicer reason for Max & Liz to be apart than T . Too bad they didn't have Tess & Kyle cement in S2 and then do this plot line. OT: Am I the only one who thought the actress who played the record company talent scout did an excellent job? |
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Posted 02-18-2002 09:50 PM by GraceKel
Hey Qfanny nice to see you post again, we really miss you here, as we miss many others, hey MELLLLLLLLLLLL and where is Starbox, I thought she would have more after further viewing for sure LOL!!!! Shapeshifter-ITA--The actress portraying Dominique was perfect for the role---I found myself thinking how much she sounded like Barbara Streisand, the way she talked--no???? Okay I will continue by myself--a few other things I noticed---Maria's songs---its funny but the song the professionals chose for her--TOUCH ME.....reminded me so much of Liz saying "if anyone ever touches me the way you did......" but Maria says THIS IS NOT ME--LOL!!!! Maria was singing a song "you're LIKE an ANGEL..." She says like an angel--but not that he is an angel--is he not an angel like Max and Izzy LOL? Did anyone have a chance to check out the poster in the corner of the bio lab in changes at Roswell High---was that in fact a cat or not on that poster? Shoutouts to the LIZOLOGISTS about the cowboy spur---hey do they or do they not put a horse reference or a horse picture of some kind in every episode? I don't create this stuff I just observe-LOL!!! Did anyone check out the snaky looking E on that blue book on the bleachers right after the little fire in Changes? |
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Posted 02-18-2002 10:22 PM by shapeshifter
GraceKel, awesome post/observations And if y'all enjoyed reading GK's wonderful prose, then I trust you won't be offended by the detailed recap at: Television without pity Here's a segment to give you the flavor: quote:Caution: It's 12 Web pages long. But the writer notices everything we would. |
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Posted 02-18-2002 11:13 PM by GraceKel
Elenac---mindwarpers from afar---or not so far away I am thinking---after all we have so many characters acting out of character--poor writing? Maybe or..? I liked your idea about Liz leaving and everything falling apart--I liked the logic---but this would make too many of us happy and Jason Katims doesn't seem to like happy fans so.....LOL!!!! |
Posted 02-19-2002 09:00 AM by elenac
quote: Tess was the first one in my list, as she was the one to bring up the subject. But she isn’t around and, being this an important bit of information, I doubt the writers will touch it if she’ll be back. Otherwise how could they state their stories are complicated? As a Lizhologist, I’m happy to know that Liz is connected to Max. As for Junior what you say sounds logical, but I don’t have any experience with hybrid kids . haniczka I’m spoiled by default as I don’t know when I’m able to download the eps. So I either avoid coming on the board or get spoiled. Not much choice here . ITA that spoilers are disappointingly better than the show is. But as Gracekel said my comments are based on what I see on the show not on what is coming next, also because they can shift their ground easily, while mounting the ep. [ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 02-19-2002 09:26 AM by GraceKel
Elenac that scene from the WHITE ROOM in which Tess said "I would feel it if anything happened to him"---later when they are in the morgue---and Michael goes to lift the sheet---TESS WHINCES---almost like she doesn't TRULY know--this could be Max or maybe not---so much for her so called I could feel it blah blah---that is always the way I saw that scene. Others might have read it differently but thats the way it came across to me. |
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Posted 02-19-2002 09:30 AM by GraceKel
Did anyone else notice how Max(cedo--whoops did I say that) threw those guys down the hallway the way Kal hurled Max across the stairs and how creepy Ed hurled Michael? In Max in The City--Max says "I don't trust Nicholas as far as I can throw him" and Tess says "and you could throw him pretty far"--how did she know? |
Posted 02-19-2002 06:50 PM by shapeshifter
quote:And the way Isabel shut Michael & Max out of Courtney's bath. I always assumed Tess was just referring to Max's human, he-manly strength. But yeah, I think you're right. Still, wouldn't a green shield have been more, uh, consistant? I wonder what Liz would have done with her powers if she had been there? |
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Posted 02-19-2002 09:03 PM by jero
Did anyone catch what Michael picked up by the door, right before the power went out? Looked like a piece of rubber(?) to me. I watched that scene 1 frame at a time (is that what's called GraceKelling it?) and just can't figure out what he picked up! Also, did anyone find it odd that he didn't mention whatever it was to Valenti when they were at the 'crime scene'? The red triangle behind Maris: There are 6 letters around it, 3 for the sides... T .. R .. K(?) and 3 for the angles... Q .. S .. ? . I can't make out the top one . Liz's hand starts 'flashing' at the moment Max says "come home", not when she first hears his voice. What is the significance (if any) of the residual effect of Liz's powers? The phone continued to smoke, the plate remained hot, the radio played after she removed her hand. Michael is playing with a yo-yo when Valenti arrives at Meta-Chem. This says 3 things to me... This really baffles me... What kind of a shoe leaves a BLUE print???? Or did the killer walk through blue paint? Who took that pic? If it was taken with the spray and blue light, why didn't the photographer follow the trail? The pic also shows some kind of a cross, inside a circle, with writing around the circle. The floor is red. Primary colors, if that means anything. BTW, the shoeprint in the pic does match the ones on the floor. (IMHO) The prints on the floor... The spray and blue light remind me of the technique used to find blood, on carpets and such, after they've been cleaned. Was this supposed to be a bloody trail? Let's talk glow. Are all the aliens doing this now? Michael's hand glows red when he opens the door. Max's hand does NOT glow when he heals Valenti. (Guess he was saving it up for the old man ) More on that scene later. Later, |
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Posted 02-19-2002 09:35 PM by GraceKel
Jero---wasn't there a poster picture with the name YO YO's in Tess room last season? There was also that mention in IMAA with Michael getting his yo yo stuck in the ???? I forget what they called it. I couldn't figure out what he picked up either, but you are right, he didn't mention it to Valenti--another thing thats bothered me is Michael was suppose to be the eyes and ears---how come he didn't see the shooting of Valenti? He just told Isabel oh they were in corridor 3--WHAT??? |
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Posted 02-19-2002 09:47 PM by GraceKel
Jero I was so stunned that Max asked Valenti to look at him--just like he asked Liz to look at him, how come he didn't ask Kyle to look at him, or the kids? But you are right--no glow on Jim's healing LOL!!! And Jero we already knew that the photo of the shoe print was a match, Jim and Michael matched it, what I was asking is did you get a look at Max's shoe in the Changes episode? He displayed it for us in the desert with Liz and Kyle? I wanted to know if anyone thought this shoe print and Max's shoe prints were a match? |
Posted 02-21-2002 02:29 PM by elenac
quote: We think alike here but a little wishful thinking won’t do us any harm. In this ep we’ve been confirmed that Max and Liz are connected, Liz can feel what’s happening to Max and I consider this a present from the writers and I’ll hold on to it until otherwise said. Was the plan they put together to rescue Valenti a good one? I don’t get all the words they say when Kyle is with them, but I think they say that if something goes wrong he has to call the police. Why don’t they call the police immediately? In TWR Max was held hostage by the FBI and alien power seemed necessary to free him, but with Meta Chem and with an investigation going on for murder, it shouldn’t have been too difficult to bring in the police to rescue Valenti. Quick thinker anyone? Another thing I noticed is that the whole “Valenti rescue”, is a re-written “Max rescue” in TWR, with almost the same characters switching places. Valenti is Max, Kyle is Liz, Adam is Valenti and Max is Nasedo. And Max ends up dead like Nacedo in TWR, only his death is the same of S&B after the stones didn’t work. Talking about repetitions, in Changes the following events were re-written: Liz’s healing of the Pilot, Michael’s healing in RD and Liz and Kyle in her room in TEOTW with Max arriving on the roof. Going back to the death scene, I was wondering why Max kept on healing the man, wasn’t he aware that he was going to die? The fact that they injected in the old man Michael’s blood serum could be important? Where did they inject the blood, in the man’s face? Someone pointed out that Max didn’t use his powers to avoid been captured. Was it because they surprised him? About aliens not reacting when they are surprised: - Ava didn’t stop Lonnie and Rath from pushing Zan in the middle of the road; - Zan let the truck run over him without stopping it and he died; Tess wasn’t able to stop Lonnie and Rath who were about to kill Max; - Khivar let Isabel push him in the wormhole without her. And we know what Tess is capable of when she gets angry (fireball) or Max’s green shield or force that throws people or things away. Anyone has theories about this? |
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Posted 02-21-2002 06:46 PM by shapeshifter
elena, Awesome observations! The only thing I can possibly add is this: If Max is not really dead, maybe what happened is a very important part of the 'surgically precise' plan that FM & FL hoped for? The promo for next week is here. Definitely looks like Liz is Important in the Ep. OT: About the murder of news journalist Daniel Pearl: |
Posted 02-21-2002 08:53 PM by Reggie
quote: "Surgically precise"? Seem deuced sloppy, to me. Too much unnecessary risk. OT: Well, at least maybe the Press will realise that they can't stand aloof, and treat both sides as moral equals. (They keep doing that, when they aren't making us look like the Bad Guys.) If they finally figure out that they should be on OUR side, that's good. |
Posted 02-21-2002 10:20 PM by jero
quote: No. The tread in the center of Max's shoe is 6 or 7 diamond shapes. The tread in the center of the shoeprint is 5 squiggly shapes. A few more things from Panacea... During the healing, right before Clayton stands up; Max's face is "distorted", Clayton takes a deep breath, (like something hit him), when he stands up his face has the same distortion that Max's had. This can be seen at normal speed but it's VERY fast. It's been mentioned that the flashing and shaking reminds us of shapeshifting. I would add that I've always had the impression that shapeshifting takes an ENORMOUS amount of "energy". Max trying to reverse Clayton's aging would also take an enormous amount of energy, he would have to 'heal' every cell in the old man's body. After old 'Max' hits the floor all of the light in the room coalesces around the body before the circle of fire expands. (only seen in slow-mo) I laughed when I noticed that the last part of Max to turn to dust is his hands. Later, |
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Posted 02-21-2002 11:57 PM by GraceKel
Jero thanks for checking the shoeprints I wasn't sure LOL---but I for one will be checking out the bottom of everyones shoes from now on LOL!!! Elenac--I understand some of what you are saying and it is pretty interesting but still trying to wrap my mind around it---I for one have been feeling all season that everyone has shifted roles in some manner and in a sense you are saying the same thing, due to this time looping? Shapeshifter--and what exactly is the surgically precise thing we are getting to---can you explain further what you are thinking--theorizing? Come on throw caution to the wind LOL!!! So nobody else thought it was odd that Michael never mentioned Valenti being shot in that corridor-he was the eyes and ears???? |
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Posted 02-22-2002 11:10 AM by elenac
The word "home" has been repeated in Panacea 4 times: Liz says that going to the Winnaman Academy is like “coming home” Maria going to New York is like “come home” Max say to Liz on the phone “come home soon” Maria says to Dominique “I’ll head back home to Roswell”. How will the aliens handle the fact that always more humans know about their secret? Tomorrow airs in Italy ITL&ITB, curios that the Italian title goes: The defeat of a leader. Just wanted to share. |
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Posted 02-22-2002 04:10 PM by shapeshifter
elenac, That is very interesting about the Italian title for ITLITB. I wonder who made the choice? GraceKel, About the "surgical precision" of TEOTW: I am suggesting that JK or whoever intended to refer back to this line when Max "dies" and (if my Saviour analogy holds) is "reborn." No, there's not much to lead me to assume that we would have such continuity, but there's been a little lately, like the reference to GC's death. |
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Posted 02-22-2002 09:30 PM by GraceKel
Hey Shapeshifter in answer to your question, why not call in the Sheriff Hanson to save Valenti, I think that considering they found all those alien samples of Michaels blood, etc..... maybe they weren't sure what might be found there if they called in somebody thats not in the loop with them. Although they might have thought they had everything, there were many many rooms in that place so who knows what might have been behind them. Thats all I could think of. Elenac I too noticed all those references to HOME as well. I am not sure if I posted this before, I might have did anyone else notice the xrays of the brain and lungs in PANACEA-----Brain Capacity and Lung Capacity again from J Atherton's book????? |
Posted 02-23-2002 02:41 AM by elenac
quote: Rereading your post I realized you were asking a question. Yes I was saying that they live again the same situation switching places due to the time looping. SS Titles are probably chosen by those who translate episodes and surely refer to the subject of the ep. Many times Roswell's original titles wouldn't fit because they refer to songs, poems, film titles to which we wouldn't relate, so they change it. Or like for ITL&ITB, in Italian would sound like "I've fooled you" not much charming. [ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 02-23-2002 02:46 AM by elenac
Sorry double post. [ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
Posted 02-23-2002 10:21 AM by shapeshifter
quote:Thank you elena, but I think yours is much more original and requires more thought. I hope you are correct! And thanks for the background on the Italian titles. Let us know if you learn anything else about who chooses them. |
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Posted 02-23-2002 06:31 PM by Zero
Hi all! Chant Down to Babylon sounds like it is going to be a wonderful Liz Myth episode - so I can hardly wait to see it, and hear everyone's observations! It is written by Ron Moore, and he has generally written really interesting episodes with the emotions/relationships/sci-fi all nicely "balanced." See you all on Tuesday!! Zero |
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Posted 02-23-2002 08:38 PM by Norma Bates
I just got the unreleased pilot and noticed something. The "We've got to get rid of her" was ADDED TO THE AIRED PILOT . Or at least I couldn't hear it even when I blared it on my TV. |
Posted 02-23-2002 09:48 PM by Reggie
quote: I've seen it. It's better than Zero says. |
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Posted 02-23-2002 10:18 PM by GraceKel
Hey Reggie thanks for the warning LOL---but S2M also recommended double taping as well. And this episode impressed you as well, thats good news. |
Posted 02-24-2002 12:45 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Wow. If Reggie The CHADster Critic says that, I guess that also means to remember these:
[ 02-24-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-24-2002 07:50 PM by jero
Thanks for the list SS! I'm gonna add get box of tissues to my prep list. Later, |
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Posted 02-24-2002 08:37 PM by Reggie
And just in case you guys aren't interested enough... I'll pass on something non-Spoilerish from the L/M Spoiler thread. They've reportedly called in some outside writers to help with the massive re-writes (at least). Guess from where? Roswell: The "dead" show that keeps on going... |
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Posted 02-24-2002 09:42 PM by jero
Reggie... Scroll really fast Time to resume my campaigning... http://www.savemyshow.com/shows/roswell.htm Not sure how long this one lasts.. poll is down on right side. http://www.savethatshow.com/Save_That_Show__Roswell.shtml http://www.yahoo.com Later, |
Posted 02-25-2002 03:21 PM by Reggie
quote: Hey, I voted a long time ago for "Save That Show, with Changes." Look, 3.17 is filming now. The spoilers for at least some of 3.18 should be leaking out soon. We don't know much about the plot of 17, but it could be interesting or horrible; depending on the writers: JKrew, or Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The BVS writers do these all the time, and well; so we'll see. I might let Polly out for another romp, if it's good. I might even start Campaigning for Roswell, if S4 isn't looking too awful. I just don't want "Busted" again! [ 02-25-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 02-26-2002 09:21 PM by shapeshifter
Reggie and jero, you were absolutely right! It was awesome, and then some! And especially about the hankies. Some may call this a sci fi remake of Sleeping Beauty, Beauty and the Beast, and Snow White, but it was still edge-of-the-seat awesome. Great acting all around! Can I stop gushing? No. Is Liz Important to the Alien Mythology? Well, duh. Okay, here's some stuff on "Chant Down Babylon": quote: I have to add that I've been feeling a little depressed with a bit of PTSD following the Pearl killing that reminds me of a past life event. Seeing Max's soul live again gives an image to describe Marianne Pearl's belief in David Pearl's soul's continuing life. I know it was written and filmed earlier, but this is also an example of the beauty of a show that is in some degree 'made up as we go along,' in that it can catch the breath of life as it is now. |
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Posted 02-26-2002 11:49 PM by Luke Goral
I can't wait to see Chant Down Babylon. This episode has to be incredible! I'm sure. Meanwhile, I'd like to share some of my thoughts. It's seems that Max's essence has been transferred into Wheeler (I haven't read many spoilers from CDB, so I'm sure what exactly happened and will happen). This is probably path they are going to follow in CDB. But I thought about something else. Maybe Max's essence has been transferred into Liz? I know, they're are probably going to solve the whole situation in a completly different way, but I just wanted to share my idea. Another thing, about FM and TEOTW. Many fans wandered what will happen now, when Tess is gone. FM said that the end of the world occured because Tess left. What will happen now? Will the end of the world occur? Personally, I think that FM was wrong. The end of world occured not because Tess left, but because she left too late. She just just all that time to spy on the Pod Squad, learn their weaknesses, and then she left to help their enemy with her knowledge. But now, when she left so early, she can't help them much. So the end of the world will not occur, or at least not in the described in TEOTW. Just my two cents... |
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Posted 02-27-2002 07:06 AM by Kristi
Hi all! Normally just a lurker on this thread, but I came up with an idea after watching CDB. Do you think that Liz was able to heal, or save Max, or bring him back because she had absorbed the healing stones back in "Ch-Ch-Changes"? When she brought him back, there were no signs of her green energy signa, but rather just an overall force going through Max. It appeared to cleanse out his system and soul and returned Max back into his proper form. I think that I'll watch "Balance" tonight to see how the stones affected Michael. Just a thought. Okay, going back into my shell. |
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Posted 02-27-2002 11:36 AM by Alexis
I am posting this information that I believe Jade Jaguar posted on RATDG. I thought you all might think it's interesting. The CD came out yesterday so it isn't spoilerish (I took out some of Jade's personal comments): Now the soundtrack also has an enhanced CD section. JK's interview is the same crap we've heard thousands of times. Now, here's some added details about the story : - the rocks were the pod chamber is are called Maideckizne Rocks Huh?!? I guess the reason no character ever mentioned it is because it's too complicated to pronounce! LOL I thought it was Velasquez Rock--anyone know? They also list the addresses of the main characters of S3 and have a map of the Roswell world.
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Posted 02-27-2002 01:01 PM by Alexis
Something seems so familiar about how Liz is touching Max here, any one remember: IMAGE: www.theddd.com/cdb/cdb76.jpg Here is the ying & yang symbol again: |
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Posted 02-27-2002 01:26 PM by shapeshifter
Alexis, I wonder if they did have lines like the one you suggested but they got cut because there's only about 30 min. of actual new screen time per ep. And I also got deja vu when she put her hands on his face, but it flashed me back to the Pilot when he does it so she can 'see' him. |
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Posted 02-27-2002 02:10 PM by Alexis
Hi, shapeshifter—about the hand placement, I thought of the Pilot (trying to do an episode inventory is hard since we are in S3) but it’s something else. Gosh, it urks me that I can’t place it! As far as the dialogue goes, it would have to be changed by the writers. The dialogue changes, etc, could have been changed with little added time. Also, I am sure you can agree that certain other things could have been cut in length/deleted: the scene where Michael and Isabel are running down the hall after they check where the fire is) comes directly to mind. It’s all a matter of artist interpretation (i.e. director—how long he holds a beat, the ending of scenes, cuts) BUT the Executive Producer AKA Jason Katims is ultimately responsible for the final say (I think KKB was also involved in this one). Some of the things that they didn’t add were vital to plots connecting! |
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Posted 02-27-2002 02:53 PM by shapeshifter
Okay, I just rewatched & took notes. (I have this afternoon off & am working tonight) Here's my observations:
[ 02-27-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-27-2002 07:37 PM by peej
Loved this ep so much, think I am falling for max again. Anyways it seems that when Liz touched max/clay that max seemed to be able to take control. . The kiss, wow! I don’t think Michael brought Is back, just that he helped her come back. The fact that Liz didn’t show her emotions as been weepy ext keeps the continuity very well. Liz powers coming back, great, definitely needs to learn how to control them. When they were falling, interesting how Liz thinks of all the people she loves, yet max only thinks of her and then gives his life in place of hers. Why where the flashes of them as kids shown so much (a good thing), but is this an indication of them going to explain the connection of them as young children? I think of the children flashes, as been a deeply rooted soul mate connection and of course the importance of Liz. |
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Posted 02-27-2002 08:50 PM by Reggie
Did it seem to everyone that Liz threw BOTH of them out the window? Sacrificing her own life, to be sure that ClayMax died? She surely couldn't have known that Max would be able to catch (only) her on a Jello-shield; and let himself fall. |
Posted 02-27-2002 09:39 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Yes, the child flashes combined with their flashes as teens and the spinning planet--plus Clayton/Max telling Marris that it was something more than "an adolescent crush." Yes, Reggie, I think Liz did sacrifice herself--she had just observed how far it was earlier when she was drinking in that very window. |
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Posted 02-27-2002 11:08 PM by meg25
Wow!!Great observations guys!! I can't wait to see it for myself and add up to your ideas My hats off to all of you. |
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Posted 02-28-2002 01:57 AM by lakambini
My take on this is thatLiz would rather die with Max body than live without him. He realized what Liz did after the flashes he had of her while falling off the window. So he yelled no. and saved her life with his green shield. I think it's the same thing that happens when he died and came back when Liz kiss him He can't die without her. This was the most romantic scene I ever experience in Television. The love that Max and Liz is very magical and sometimes poetic. And I think that Max and Liz love affair will earn Roswell either a S4 or a Sequel. Because their love will eventually save the world and his other world. Another Thing that I've notice in the ch-ch- Change episode is the end scene where Liz was still looking at Max while his departing, the closed window has a dragon sticker and is very prominiently place in the center of her body. I don't know the meaning of this but I am really spooked about it. |
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Posted 02-28-2002 09:15 AM by GraceKel
Hey Fellow Liz Mythers----could it be that we are FINALLY getting season1 Max back?????? Boy have I missed him!!!!! That said I must tell you that I am thoroughly and totally confused by this episode---WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?--LOL!!!!! One of the first episodes in a long time that I didn't feel nauseated by it so thats a good sign. Thanks Alexis for bringing over that information--quite frankly it makes my blood boil--explanations on a cd and not in the show-hmmmm--there is something wrong with that. It is the same way I felt about the Mythology site on wb board---what about people who don't have access but watch the show? Shapeshifter--good observations you have made I am still watching this episode a couple more times before commenting really. Welcome to all NEWBIES on our thread and nice speculations all. Reggie, there isn't anything unusual about Liz sacrificing is there---she has always been this way, always thinking of others first---even when Maria comes to tell her of Max's death, Liz comforts Maria---this is SO LIZ. Shapeshifter--I thought it seemed like we were getting more commercials and promos than we use to---and the show suffers greatly for this too, I cannot believe this. Just a few quick observations to add to others---Isabel saying Max can't die, he can't--reminded me of Tess saying Nasedo couldn't die-hmmmm. Michael and Isabel or at least one of them also demonstrated the ability to throw the GOONS who were shooting at them--hmmm. We also can't forget that Clayton was also injected with Michael's blood too-LOL!!! |
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Posted 02-28-2002 10:23 AM by GraceKel
Oh one more thing I forgot to mention----1 + 1 = 3???? I noticed this in the Changes episode too, but couldn't see it clearly enough, I saw it pretty clearly on CDB eppy. Anyone want to explain that one? Well I was over on the SCIFI thread to see if anyone has a scientific explanation for what happened with CLAY/MAX--but its not moving--oh well. |
Posted 02-28-2002 02:02 PM by Reggie
quote: Well, when Max "Healed" Clayton, supposedly he gave him all his essence. This made Clayton's healed body look like Max, somehow. We then had Clayton's body, with both Clayton's soul and Max's essence in it. Maris told Clayton to kill Liz, hoping that would weaken Max; but the threat to Liz only strengthened him. The fall killed them both, and Liz (supposedly) brought Max (not Clayton) back. Now Max has Clayton's body. How this will affect all the alien-stuff is... to be seen. The total running time for each episode is on the show card, flashed onscreen before the show is sent over the satellite. They've been running a few seconds over 43 minutes, all along. Maybe it just seems longer to wait for the ads to end, until a worthwhile episode resumes? |
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Posted 02-28-2002 05:27 PM by Zara
yuk, yuk, Liz had to go to the Winn-a-man school to get her Max back... Very bad, I know, but pretty overt, nonetheless... |
Posted 02-28-2002 08:09 PM by shapeshifter
quote: quote:I woke up this morning thinking that when Liz&Max and Maria were walking home at the end (don't worry, they'll get there before they air another ep ) that Ghost Alex was probably doing jumping jacks in front of them, trying vainly to get them to see him as he yelled: 'Wait! You left Morgan's body in the Library! I know Liz's roommate owes her one for covering about the ciggie butts, but don't you think you should at least wipe Liz's fingerprints off the poker?!' But it's all good because Maria has the poker/golf club under her coat just in case Max turns strangler again. Other than that, I loved it.
quote:brrrr.... ***shapeshifter prays: please, no!*** ...unless...do you suppose Nasedo is still alive? That when he went to dust he entered someone else's body?
quote:And Michael gave Izzy his blood. Does this count as continuity from the Blood Brothers eppy? quote:Huh? Where? quote:Huh? Not when I last checked. Thank goodness! |
Posted 02-28-2002 08:50 PM by Reggie
quote: Check again. Max's original body turned to dust, AND was burned. The only other body was Clayton's, which Merris carried off. That's the one that woke up in Merris's bed, looking like Max but containing Clayton's mind. It's still Clayton's body. Max probably now has Clayton's human blood, Clayton's fingerprints, etc. |
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Posted 02-28-2002 09:36 PM by haniczka
Originally posted by Shapeshifter: I woke up this morning thinking that when Liz&Max and Maria were walking home at the end (don't worry, they'll get there before they air another ep)... _______________________________________________ That's funny, I woke up thinking "okay, Maria, make a quick excuse and tip-toe out of there!" This is what Max and Liz have needed for at least a year. They're away from everyone and everything. No time like the present to TALK! I hope they do take their sweet time walking home! Too bad they both had to jump from a building to knock some sense into themselves! Could Max be like a phoenix rising from his ashes through Liz's fire? -HH |
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Posted 02-28-2002 09:39 PM by Roswell 10/2/00
Liz the True Queen the True Venus IMAGE: www.theddd.com/cdb/cdb105.jpg |
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Posted 02-28-2002 09:54 PM by Stargaser
Am I the only one who thought that I saw a shiny small wave coming from Liz's body to Max when she was healing him with a kiss? Did I dream this up because I could have sworn that that's how she healed him. Some of her powers went back to him, which means that Max is still an alien/human hybrid. As for those who are pointing out that Max is now in Clayton's body, I would like you to refer to the whole transformation part. IMAGE: 216.40.201.155/s/contrib/blackeye/Lpuke.gif If Max transformed Clayton on the level of DNA, then hypothetically if Clayton has the physical appearance and strength of Max, then he should also have his fingertips. I don't think of it as Clayton in Max's body. I think that Clayton finally died when Liz healed Max. When I mean died..I mean his essence, soul and mind. It was Clayton who was living in Max's body not the other way around. Liz just brought the old Max essence from within the body. |
Posted 02-28-2002 10:30 PM by shapeshifter
quote: I saw the same white light eminating from Liz's hands to Max as from Michael's to Izzy. Izzy said she was someplace else and Michael's voice brought her back. Max said Liz brought him back. Ava said Liz was changed because Max "brought you back." This is different than molecular manipulation to remove a bullet. quote:I agree. Also, about the transformation process--we saw Max aging, but I think he actually traded bodies at that point. But then, when he turned to ash, it was because his essence and soul got sucked into the body along with the DNA, skin, bone, etc. |
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Posted 02-28-2002 10:38 PM by Norma Bates
Well, Max is still coming to Liz to do his dirty business. He can't kill himself, he asks Liz to do it for him. Very similar to going to Liz to make him fall out of love with him. When Liz first zapped him with the green energy when he first found her on the lawn laughing, I think it brought Max to the fore for a few seconds before Clayton shook his head and took over again, then took off. "When it comes time to 'chant down Bablyon and destroy the plans of wicked men.'" Could this be a hint that Kivar might be coming? To prepare. |
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Posted 02-28-2002 11:11 PM by GraceKel
Shapeshifter as for the 1 Plus 1 equals 3---its on the wall outside of Liz's dorm room--they showed it in Changes when Liz arrives, also when Dean shows up, and then again in CDB we see it as Maria arrives at the room. Its on the wall behind them each time. It says PROBLEM--1 + 1 = 3 It seems more logical that both Max and Clayton were fighting over who was going to house Max's body to me too, but Max did say this isn't my body to Liz so you must destroy it. So I found myself totally confused by the whole thing. I just hope we don't have to wait for a new cd to come out to get an explanation--LOL!!! It still reminds me of shapeshifting. |
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Posted 03-01-2002 09:17 AM by Rebecca
Ok, I was thinking about the body thing some more. I do believe that it was Max's body that aged, fell, and turned to dust, like we've seen Nasedo's body turn to dust. I think that Max took all of Clayton's Agedness into his own body, because to me the corpse that dusted looked like an aged Max, it didn't look like the old guy Clayton. So the question is, what did the merge entail? Yes, I think we have to consider that Clayton was injected with Michael's blood just minutes before if memory serves. I would've thought that would have killed the old guy, you don't mix blood types, but maybe, just maybe, the alien's blood is neutral or perhaps is not a substance that would be in conflict with human blood, maybe it even would have a positive affect when introduced into the human bloodstream? Who knows? All I know is that the Hybrids have human organs and tissue and the alien blood works fine in conjuction with those. Now Max is merging into a body that already has alien DNA in it's bloodstream. That has to be a factor. Grandma Claudia didn't have alien blood in her system and Max was unable to heal her, also we know he's become more powerful since then too. The two ideas I'm playing with about the merge are, is it a Molecular reconfig/Shape Shift thing pure and simple, or is it a Alien blood/DNA thing and if it is a DNA thing, then somehow Max must've transferred some of his Hybrid DNA with his essence. What happens to Clayton's resident DNA? I'm not a Genetisist, but maybe it's disassembled, it's bonds unravel, the double helix disintegrates and the Hybrid DNA in all it's gandarium alienness replicates, accelerated and rapidly! Now on the other hand, if it's a simple Molecular reconfig/SS thing, then Max's alien essence in conjuction with the injected alien blood in conjunction with Max's healing powers enabled Max to entirely reconfigure Clayton's DNA into Max's. Clayton's atoms were totally rearranged, but his spirit was still housed intact, along with Max's now. I know we've never seen the Podsters achieve this great a SS. The SS they've exhibited in the past I think have only been skin deep; Mike SS his fingerprint in WR and the Rath and Lonnie SS their skin tatoos and hair. So I don't know. I'm really hoping we get some small shred of a clue in the next eppy, ya know Max explaining to Mike & Iz that he didn't die with something more than an I don't know answer. Ron Moore - please. |
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Posted 03-01-2002 10:00 AM by Alexis
Quote by shapeshifter I woke up this morning thinking that when Liz&Max and Maria were walking home at the end (don't worry, they'll get there before they air another ep ) that Ghost Alex was probably doing jumping jacks in front of them, trying vainly to get them to see him as he yelled: 'Wait! You left Morgan's body in the Library! I know Liz's roommate owes her one for covering about the ciggie butts, but don't you think you should at least wipe Liz's fingerprints off the poker?!' But it's all good because Maria has the poker/golf club under her coat just in case Max turns strangler again. Other than that, I loved it. I was thinking the same thing about “Morgans” body. Hello!!! Let’s hope the writer’s have either Max, Liz or Maria give an update that includes saying how Max disposed of the body. They can’t just take off fingerprints because Liz would be the first suspect (she was the only one left at school). Merris had a Roswell connection, so they would have to get rid of the body. As for the CD, most of the information I posted is directly from the CD (I looked at it last night). I was not able to watch the JK interview, I’ll try today. I did write down all of the address they published on it. Here they are: Crashdown Café/Liz’s Place UFO Center W. Roswell High Deluca House Valenti House Evans House Ramirez Apartment Michael’s Apartment The CD also lists (on a map) where deaths have occurred, first kiss locations and work locations. |
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Posted 03-01-2002 10:06 AM by Zero
Hi all! I've been out of town on business, and only watched CDB once so far. I really enjoyed it, but believe you can't get too hung up on the how's and why's about the body transfer/takeover and Maris' death to do so. I was just so glad to see the flashes, etc. back. Once I have time to rewatch and take notes I will post my thoughts and observations - and since we have such a long break before a new show, I'm not in a big rush! So - I will catch up on my reading and post later - but till then everyone have a nice weekend!! Zero |
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Posted 03-01-2002 02:12 PM by Alexis
BTW, Shiri was the only one specifically thanked on the CD’s thank you. The rest were thanked as a general “…and thanks to the cast and crew of Roswell.” Anyone know why, by chance? |
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Posted 03-01-2002 02:36 PM by elenac
Alexis – JK’s interview is the same crap we’ve heard thousand of times. [/b] Hi Alexis! Reading your post about the CD, I suddenly realized why every time an interview of the writers is out I get in a bad mood. For them this show is a product, while for us is a story we are hooked to. Apparently they don’t see its charm like we do. So, for instance, Liz that walks away from Max for the third time its because there’s no hope of reconciliation, while I felt that she tapped into his destiny for the third time and she sacrificed herself again. And example of how differently we see things having the same ending. About the picture where Liz touches Max. Somehow reminds me of Max at Tess’ bedside when she was having, what seemed to be, a miscarriage, in BIY. But I have to check it. |
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Posted 03-01-2002 02:39 PM by elenac
It seems I won’t be able to download the last ten minutes of the show, I’ve tried 8 times and decided to give up, so I’ll comment for the part I’ve seen. Drama apart, this ep is all about love. Love for dying Isabel: Kyle and Michael were just too sweet at her bedside, so was Jesse’s pain having to deal with both the new reality of her being alien and her health problems. I just loved that Iz’s first smile was for Jesse. You could actually feel Liz’s pain for Max’s death through her so un-Liz like behaviour. Talking about M/L relationship, I was reminded of something a friend told me once: it’s no use that you run away from your problems, they’ll follow you at the same speed of a stretched elastic band going back to its former shape. This seems what happened to Liz running away from Max: he went immediately to her for help and this means they have to solve their problems together. We’ve seen the flashes again and, since BD was mentioned for the kiss that sobered Max up, also flashes were first seen in this ep. On that occasion drunk Max used them to communicate to Liz his true feelings for her, since he was trapped in his fears to put her in danger. This time he uses them again to communicate to Liz that he is trapped in a cohabitation with Clayton in his body? Talking about this scene, there was a repetition: after Liz uses her powers on Max and he takes charge over Clayton, they say to each other with the same tone of TEOTW (when FM arrives on Liz’s roof) “Liz” and “Max” and then the same line later in the ep “you have to do it”. They could show us a little of Clayton morphing into Max, shapeshifting has been shown in the past, it was helpful to get into the subject less abruptly. Maybe I shouldn’t say this, but the scene were Marris says to Clayton/Max “Clayton kill the one you love” made me laugh. Up to then she made a perfect job, she obtained for her husband an out worldly new youth and then she lost it saying to a confused Clayton the wrong sentence. At least he confirmed his love for her! |
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Posted 03-01-2002 02:40 PM by elenac
Sorry double post. this time I wasn't aware of it. [ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
Posted 03-01-2002 04:44 PM by shapeshifter
quote: I will check back later to read everything. Elena, what is the last scene you saw? For now, from the very sarcastic televisionwithoutpity.com, here is the last page for the CDB summary: quote: |
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Posted 03-02-2002 08:51 AM by GraceKel
Rebecca I agree with you, I believe there has been some sort of shapeshifting going on here, but the question is--has ME always been a shapeshifter and didnt know it, or......?????? Another thing I noticed is this green light we see coming from Liz to Max--it reminds me in the White Room when Dan Pierce said this will hurt you--at that moment they featured blue and yellow bags---and THIS WILL HELP YOU---they showed GREEN INJECTION----Blue and Yellow will hurt you and GREEN will help you hmmmm. |
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Posted 03-02-2002 09:26 AM by GraceKel
Okay here is another thing I will throw out to you--LOL----many have mentioned that Michael and Max have been acting like they have reversed or switced roles for a long time------old man Clayton was injected with the blood of Michael-----Max says, "I am in this body but it is not really me" This PARTICULAR Max we have not seen for a long time---all Liz all the time---could it be the Michael blood is actually the true Max--thus we have had Michael acting like Mr Responsible, devoted to one woman, although this woman has been rejecting him---because she is not THE ONE-LOL!!!! Who killed Merris? We have been told it is Clayton, but why would Clayton kill his own wife???? Could it be the SHAPESHIFTER--Edsedo/Michael---Michael says I kill people Max you heal people? This may sound confusing but so is the show--LOL. In CDB Michael demonstrates this white light passing through Isabel's hand---almost like healing her---is this because Michael has been walking around with Max's essense for awhile????? LOL!!!! Hey I always thought of that scene in MITC that Max either had something REMOVED or PLANTED. IF something was REMOVED and placed into Michael perhaps this explains the role reversal of Michael and Max. If this were the case---that PROBLEM 1 + 1 = 3 would make sense--we think that there are two forces at work with Clayton and Max--but in fact there are 3. The only other explanation I can come up with for the equation is and baby makes three--arrggghhhh PUKE!!!! |
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Posted 03-02-2002 10:46 AM by GilrozGirl
Apparently the guy from Television Without Pity missed seeing the Jell-O shield dissolve and Liz falling to the ground, not to mention Liz bringing Max back with a kiss! Oh well. Thanks for bringing that over, Shapeshifter! Back to ~Jacquelyn [ 03-02-2002: Message edited by: GilrozGirl ] |
Posted 03-02-2002 03:58 PM by shapeshifter
quote:There, there, GraceKel, dear, no need to puke. I think since they are showing it in these eps, it is likely (1)Max + (1)Clayton ___________________________________ =(3)Max, Clayton, and Killer But there is the Michael blood catalyst factor...(which belongs on the Sci Fi thread) Maybe it's: meaning that Liz gave Max the power to separate from Clayton and allowed Clayton to RIP. No, GraceKel, there is no SPoT necessary to complete the equation. Ooo, one more possibility--Maris was with him for 20 years. She would have been young enough to have had an heir, and he would be old enough to be....strumming a guitar in the streets of NY? Gak. No. But maybe someone else...?
[ 03-02-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 03-02-2002 10:35 PM by GraceKel
Shapeshifter, also good specs----okay I saw something else----did anyone else notice the very large Z on the backyard gate at the Valenti's? |
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Posted 03-03-2002 12:03 AM by shapeshifter
Hmmm..."Z" as in "Zorro"? quote: So is "Fox Mulder" "Zoro" in Spanish? Anyone? Also, continuing on the above spec: what if Clayton's will said Marris was cut out of the inheritance if there was no heir? But then you would think she would have gone for artificial insemination. |
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Posted 03-03-2002 08:43 AM by GraceKel
Shapeshifter thanks for the ZORRO background, I was somewhat familiar with it, but actually the first thing I thought of when I saw the Z was ZAN--LOL!!! |
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Posted 03-03-2002 09:41 AM by Zara
Or Z as in that big Z T drew on Kyle's bedroom wall when she moved in... That's pretty creepy! Gracekel, I loved all your musings about Michael and the true king stuff. Pretty good, considering I notice from the Crashdown home page that the name of the next episode is "Who Died and Made You King." bwaahahahahahah (evil laugh) |
Posted 03-03-2002 05:02 PM by shapeshifter
quote:OH, duh. ***shapeshifter metaphorically hits herself in the forehead with a snowball/icecream cone*** quote:I have seen a variation on that title (par for Roswell titles) of: "Who Died and Made You Boss." Over on blu5, greg5 asks: quote:I don't think so, but it's interesting. BTW, my fav scene: Max looking down on Liz on the grass. Did anyone else wonder if Shiri actually did slip and fall and start laughing, and if they worked it into the script? It looked so natural. Does anyone know (Qfanny out there somewhere?) if they ever do that (major ad lib)? |
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Posted 03-03-2002 09:15 PM by Destiny_Unfolds
you guys are interesting.....i'm new here and itz really weird how you guys were thinking Liz had powers cuz when Max healed her he put his hand behind her neck and all that good stuff and how now she actually has powers. u guys are either right on the dot or the writers are copying ur theories for some entertainment |
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Posted 03-04-2002 01:17 AM by c. mccoy
I don't really like JK's explanations for things on that CD. They're really not that interesting or imaginative. I'm writing my first fanfic - of any kind. I've posted the prologue & chapt. 1 over at roswellfanfic.com. I'd be honored if you guys would drop by, read & post your thoughts - and yes, it is mythology based. You may want to wait until the end of the week. I should have 5-9 chapters by then. It's called 'What Could Have Been'. Just enter the name into the search & pick the one by PGILLUM486. You really don't get an appreciation of just how badly JK screwed up this show until you start writing fanfic & try answering all the questions he left hanging - and my story picks up after VLV. I decided there wasn't anything I could do with Decrapture. |
Posted 03-04-2002 10:59 AM by elenac
quote: Thanks SS that was really amusing. I went as far as when Max begs Liz to kill his body, she strikes the blow and then he jumps on her. BTW, this is the third time a disguised Max, with Max’s looks, goes to Liz: Nasedo, FM and Clayton/Max. One more observation: how far do you all think they’ve gone in learning to use their skills, knowledge etc. as mom-o-gram said. Or are they still on that path, working to fulfil their mother’s request? |
Posted 03-04-2002 01:21 PM by Metaphysicalgrl
quote: Hi Everyone... The reason Shiri was thanked separately in the CD Liner notes is probably because of her participation in the Sense Field video... Sense Field and the Roswell Soundtrack are both on Nettwerk. Including the Sense Field track on the Roswell soundtrack, when it had yet to appear in an episode was pure cross promotion. My guess is that the label was hoping that the extra promotion generated by Sense Field's connection to Roswell would help launch them, or create some buzz around them. Having Shiri appear in the video would help this cause, and earn her a special thank you. I'm currently working on the ST to the Scorpion King, and we had the Rock appear in the Godsmack "I Stand Alone" video...same concept. Since my company is releasing the Soundtrack, and Godsmack is on our label, we're using the whole movie concept to help promote them. The video is like a mini-movie. The Rock's appearance is helping get that point across. That's just how it goes... That said, I've really been annoyed w/all the latest episodes of Roswell. My roomate sat down to watch CDB w/me, and it was to the point where I was embarassed and unable to answer her questions. ***(However, kudos to the Bob Marley reference. I might not understand why they chose that particular song, but any Bob Marley reference is a good one.) The whole Morgan Fairchild storlyine made my skin crawl. It was just so beyond stupid! And such a waste of good storytelling time. The whole idea that the pod squad would be so CARELESS in covering up who they are, just makes me angry! It's such a departure (no pun intended) from where this show started... In any case, I really find it hard to myth because I am so disgusted w/where the storyline is at. Now that Max was 'brought back' by Liz, does that mean she will no longer have an adverse green electric reaction to him? LOL. Let me guess, now that Max was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for her their love is pure again? She no longer holds any resentment towards him? Whatever. If I were Liz, I would be pissed that I couldn't even get away from the situation by going across the country to Vermont. She is unable to extricate herself from the situation. Talk about losing control and having no power over your destiny. Forget Harvard, girl, because there's no way you'll be able to get there. Anyhow, I would love to myth, but at this point I am so confused as to where they are going with all of this, I am almost at the point of not even caring. {~}:} Sorry for the grouchy post, but this show BAFFLES me! |
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Posted 03-04-2002 07:42 PM by shapeshifter
Meta, breathe. Now, say it with us: "It's just a television show." I always prefer to watch it alone because then I don't have to make excuses to anyone. But Meta et al, about the Tex, two things:
Anyway, did anyone else expect Michael to part the trees when Jessie told him to "do it again"? I was so sure it was the same background trees they used on the golf course in the Bewitched episode. Meta, I'm back to edit this insanely long post because over at blu5 I found some scifi explanation that I thought might make sense of some of it for you. quote: [ 03-04-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
Posted 03-05-2002 07:40 AM by Metaphysicalgrl
quote: Thanks SS! I needed that. However, I understand what they were *trying* to accomplish with that storyline, but I just don't understand *why* of all the places they could go... they chose there. As the series is winding down to it's conclusion, I just find it ridiculous that with so many open plotlines available for them, they choose to focus on new and confusing (and STUPID!) plots. Liz leaves Roswell because she needs space to figure things out -- Max shows up in Vermont, tries to kill her, and yet when he says "Let's Go Home"...she's all like, duh, OK. Maria dreams of being a musician, but when her dreams are handed to her on a silver platter she walks away from them... Kyle is in love with Isabelle even though she's married and unattainable. Yet, they spent no time this season building this up for us, yet we believe because Nick Weschler is such a wonderful actor... There are just so many things wrong with this season... but I swear, when I saw Morgan Fairchild on Roswell, I knew for me, it was over. PUHLEEASE!!!! Anyhow, I won't damper this thread with my negativity about the show, but I no longer believe they think about this stuff as hard as we do. Evidenced by them giving Maria Liz's mirror to use as a prop in her room.
Smiles, |
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Posted 03-05-2002 07:37 PM by Essence
I was thinking about going to the Philly party. I'm not too far from Philly. I was wondering if there is anyone else from the East coast thinking about going. On topic: After Liz kisses Max, I think Clayton was fighting with Max to become dominant and be the one to live (ergo, the brief view of Clayton before he turns into Max) but Max wins the fight, either because of Liz or with Liz's help (through her healing). I think the kiss brought the body back, but Max's essence fought with Clayton to be the one to live. I think Max transferred his life essence into Clayton in order to save Clayton. Clayton was going to suffer a natural death. Max was supposed to not be able to save someone from a natural death. He didn't really save Clayton, he transferred his life essence into Clayton in order for Clayton to live. Max's essence was transferred and there was no essence left in his former body and so it died. And then the fight for control began. (This may be a power that they didn't know they had. Maybe, if Max was going to die he could take the body of the nearest person in order to live. However, any honorable alien would never knowingly do such a thing.) As for whether Max will still have alien powers, well Liz could have transferred some to him when she brought him back ... or not. I guess that will remain to be seen. I just hope they don't gloss over the issue. Or, maybe in true Roswell form, Max will find a situation in which he needs to use his powers and that will be our answer. I think the body is identical to Max's former body. Fingerprints and all. How this happened, I have no clue. I'm sure we will get no answer for that one. Essence |
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Posted 03-05-2002 07:43 PM by Reggie
Originally posted by shapeshifter: Hmmm..."Z" as in "Zorro"? So is "Fox Mulder" "Zoro" in Spanish? Anyone? GraceKel: Shapeshifter thanks for the ZORRO background, I was somewhat familiar with it, but actually the first thing I thought of when I saw the Z was ZAN--LOL!!! Oh, come ON, you guys. I mean, Some People beat the thing to death when it aired - Is that a Z? Maybe it's a 2? Symbolizing Tess and Max? Tess and Kyle? Tess and Nacedo? Maybe it's a Twilonese symbol? A hex sign of some sort? Etc... And yes, it's clear that the prop people and hairdressers are more "into" the show than the so-called writers and producers. It's sad. But there's only four more eps (IMHO). Hang in there! And don't forget to laugh!!! |
Posted 03-05-2002 08:31 PM by Essence
quote: I laugh every time I think of JK. He killed his own show!!! Isn't he now the biggest joke in the business? "A happy couple is a boring couple." Hmmmmmm. Only if you have no imagination and a complete lack of any sense of originality whereas you have to rely on soap style story telling. Inner demons aren't enough of an obstacle? I guess not in As The World of JK Turns. Essence |
Posted 03-05-2002 08:39 PM by shapeshifter
quote:KKB and some of the cast are slated to be there. Too far for me, but sounds fun.
quote:excellent explantion. except that in a movie or book, I think it would have made more sense(?) if it was just a rejuvenated Clayton body with Max's essence/personality. But for a TV series, we can't spare the star's body.
quote:It would be really interesting if Max no longer had powers but Liz does. Also, if Isabel no longer has powers because Michael 'brought her back.' This would work well if Maris had lived and tried to make money off of selling info on 'the healer,' only to be proved to be a 'hoax.' And then Dr. Quack would try to sell Isabel's spleen, but she would have regrown a new one when brought back, and now also no longer exhibits alien properties. Max & Izzy would be like Pinocchios. Reggie, thanks for the encouragement on the last 4 eps, but I also think there might be a Roswell, The Next Generation. |
Posted 03-07-2002 04:32 AM by mezz
quote: Annoying but problems we have to sort through have an annoying way of following close on our heels where ever we go until we turn and deal with them Ok so my brain works slowly. Groan to yourselves but then fill me in. I have been wondering forever why Tess put the Z on her wall. And in pink! Everytime I see that ep I'm thinking "What??" Can you take the trouble to fill me in. please. |
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Posted 03-07-2002 09:39 AM by GraceKel
Mezz the only explanation we were ever offered about the Z was what was shown--that she put it there--no explanation was ever offered. Shapeshifter-interesting how you could run with that storyline about Max losing powers but therefore escaping disaster--LOL----its awful but I have always thought that the Liz Mythers thread has better ideas than the writers seem to come up with-LOL!!! Metaphysicalgrl--I understand completely how you feel, I have done my fair share of ranting on these threads. |
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Posted 03-07-2002 01:38 PM by elenac
Finally I was able to see the last few minutes of CDB. I loved everybody’s imaginative speculations about Clayton morphing into Max’s body, in particular hybrid’s capability of healing themselves and essence transferring into hybrid bodies, like when they were created. This whole morphing matter though made me think of a message that could lay behind it, and that is the impossibility to stop the aging process and consequently death, not even with alien power. In fact at the beginning Clayton resulted to be a younger self (no white heads were to be seen when Iz was shot, only Merris blond head) but soon morphed into Max’s body that hadn’t gone through that process. The battle then was between the two essences and, as Merris said, Clayton was only able to overtake if he killed the person that kept Max fighting. But then Clayton must have realized that Max would never let go of Liz and together, also with their alien powers, were too strong for him. On top of that he had nobody from the outside helping or caring for him and had to let go. Meta – The fact that Max went to Liz for help it's not negative, it was a matter of life or death. True he didn’t allow her to go through her problems on her own, but if Max died her problems wouldn’t exist anymore and Liz’s desperation for Max’s death tells it all. |
Posted 03-08-2002 05:09 PM by shapeshifter
quote:The pink would probably indicate that she was transforming the room from Kyle's jockness to a more feminine scheme. And the "Z" was (I thought) just the first strokes of color (different from what Max & Michael did at Jessie & Isabel's apartment). But I like GraceKel's idea that the "Z" was also for "Zan."
quote: A lot like Isabel telling her mom (about Alex's death) that "special powers don't help." |
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Posted 03-08-2002 08:07 PM by jero
You know what to do!!!! http://www.savemyshow.com/shows/roswell.htm http://www.savethatshow.com/Save_That_Show__Roswell.shtml (UC UNDERCOVER Total Number of Responses: 33283) http://www.yahoo.com Later, |
Posted 03-09-2002 04:43 PM by Reggie
quote: Poor dear. Is there a video rental place handy? Look up The Mark of Zorro, or any movie with "Zorro" in the title. (There may be a dozen or more, including satires: "Zorro, the Gay Blade".) There may also be such books in your local Library. There were also at least two "Zorro" TV series, the first a B&W live-action from Disney in the 1950s or so. The "legend" of Zorro is a story set in Spanish-colonized California, just as "The Lone Ranger" was set in the (US) state of Texas. One of the (Spanish) nobilemen's sons was sent to school in Spain. When he returned, he was an excellent swordsman and horseman. Taking pity on the government-oppressed poor of the area, he pretended to be an effeminite fop by day, and a Robin Hood by night. He left his mark, by making three slashes with the tip of his sword. The slashes were made in the form of a Z : the mark of Zorro. Tess was making her own "mark", on what was to be her room. The girl made it in pink, of course; but if you see any of the movies or TV series (there were at least two series) the Z is unmistakable. And I am NOT the oldest person here! |
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Posted 03-09-2002 07:34 PM by GraceKel
Hello Fellow Liz Mythers how are you doing, I hope I am not repeating myself in this post, I very well could be but SHAPESHIFTER in answer to your recent post about Meris on the library floor-LOL----This is the way the writers always do things--OPEN ENDED---we don't know if Max went back to clean up his mess with Meris on the floor or whether he awoke and was unaware what happened and she was left there--to open up another story at a later time---ALL their writing has been this way---even the Destiny -Mommygram was always done in a way that they had a few out clauses if they so desired to get rid of it at a later time. Or if they decided to keep it--they could just run with it. A few other things I noticed--LOL--Daniel Lubetkin and Dominique Lazar--both DL names hmmm, is it a coincidence or the same shapeshifter-LOL????? Why do the writers keep using words with the same first letters---in props or dialogue--pig babies, paperbag,punching bag, pinic basket, park bench, peanut butter cookies, pander bears,pall bearers now reverse it we have Byson's Pub, Buckley Point, beautiful people(said by Alex) Kal mentions Brad Pitt, Black Pantsuit(Liz), bullpen of deputy's(Jim), budget proposals(Whittaker) these are just to name a few--its uncanny how many you can find-LOL--whats the point? Is there one? Will the show die before we get the lowdown LOL??? Will the show ever explain to me why Max started acting like a horse's a** last season and continued to sit on his brains with Liz holding the gun? Has he taken on a personality that wasn't his? Why is everyone going around saying yes this isn't me, its not like me, it was like another person blah blah.......??????? Will we get answers??????? Before the show ends--I certainly hope so!!!! |
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Posted 03-09-2002 07:36 PM by GraceKel
Oh just a couple of more I just thought of---business plan(Kyle) and brake pads(Kyle)--LOL!!!! And will we ever address the FUTURE MAX stuff???????????????????????????????????????????????? |
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Posted 03-09-2002 08:13 PM by BumbleBeeM
hello e erone just popped by to say hi, i havent been in here for agggggggggggggeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssss well i cant exactly share light on any episodes fron season 3 cos in ausyland we havent got season 3 yet .....i hope it comes soon though |
Posted 03-09-2002 10:19 PM by shapeshifter
quote:I may be, but that's only if we aren't counting Morgan Fairchild - LOL GraceKel, Great questions! Hey, maybe we could write a book someday: Everything You Wanted To Know About Roswell And Were Not Afraid To Ask I suppose in general the constant confusion about identities is supposed to mirror the coming-of-age experience. My 13-year-old daughter just watched the last ep with me (I felt the need to prepare her for the Max/Morgan scene ***shudder*** --did M. Fairchild only agree to do the show on the condition that they started the music before the cut-away from the scene where he carries her off to bed?), and, anyway, my daughter wanted to know if Max still has powers now. So, what do you think, GraceKel, will we ever know? Hey Queen A!
quote: [ 03-09-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 03-09-2002 10:32 PM by BumbleBeeM
has ava made an appearance in s3 yet |
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Posted 03-09-2002 10:44 PM by shapeshifter
Queen A, sorry no mention of Ava. But in the last ep, Liz did a scream that was just as good.
quote: Theddd.com now has a screen cap up of the CDB pants. Shall we compare? Season one pants (see analysis of symbols at Archetypes: And Season three pants: [ 03-09-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 03-09-2002 10:56 PM by GraceKel
Hey Shapeshifter thanks for the response and thanks for bringing up Starbox's post again--I had forgotten how on target she was with the pine information the ressurrection and Liz being involved--LOL---where did she disappear to anyway? I guess she didn't care for Chant Down Babylon-LOL!!! Also thanks for those book selections as well, what do you think it means if anything? |
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Posted 03-10-2002 08:19 AM by GraceKel
As for the coming of age speculation you mentioned, I must tell you if this was all Katims is hinting at I for one will be sadly disappointed---I still believe that Max Evans acted like a stupified zombie--rubbing Tess's feet and saying right.....right.....right---he played it like there was something wrong with him--LOL Max, Jim, and even Michael have been shown sleeping at odd times, the unshaven look, even Mr Evans saying knowing Isabel she will have everything down to the last pedal on the rose------wasn't the case though was it? The man had better have an answer for all this otherwise it is nonsensical to me---we are not talking about character growth here--it was personality transplants practically. |
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Posted 03-10-2002 11:38 AM by jero
Jesse and Michael are talking in the back yard and Dr. Paul interrupts. When Paul leaves he closes the gate behind him, but when Jesse leaves the gate is wide open. When ClayMax killed Meris it was daylight outside. (They were right next to windows.) The next scene shows him walking to Liz's dorm in the dark. I took this to show that he didn't go directly to Liz. He did something in between the 2 scenes. (Got rid of Meris' body?) Love everyone elses specs. Later, |
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Posted 03-10-2002 01:04 PM by c. mccoy
As I said a few pages back, I'm currently writing my first piece of fan fiction using a lot of the ideas you guys have come up with(i.e. How does GC figure into all this. S. Hubble? Why were they sent here? What's Liz's true purpose & so on.) I must say this is fun as hell. I've really gotten into it & have the prologue & chapters 1-3 of 'What Could Have Been' posted on roswellfanfic.com Chapter 4 is on its way soon. I have a question though. You guys are the inspiration for this thing & I was wondering: What would you have liked to see happen on Roswell(before JK killed it)? I've picked up the story after VLV so, up until then, what was your hopes? What kind of bad guys had you envisioned them fighting? What kind of situations had you imagined them getting into? Any ideas at all? I have some ideas of my own but I need more. |
Posted 03-10-2002 05:18 PM by shapeshifter
quote: The Dewey numbers were visible, so the books on the shelves in the library where the scene was shot would have been from the same subject area, though not likely the same exact titles. But the subjects for those titles are (coincidentally, but, of course, in Roswell there are no coincidences )-- For 613.94: Sterilizaion of criminal and defectives Eugenics Mental Disorders. Sterilization, sexual. Insanity And for 627.52: And GraceKel, about the 'coming-of-age' metaphors, I think lots of young men do go Stepford for awhile. I cringe to think of some of the things I've seen in the "real world" that are worse than Stepford Max--but still, I would hope not to see it as entertainment. jero, CHADs or clues? That's the ultimate Roswellian question.
quote:c. mcc, Although I do think a T -type of plot is very realistic (at least in my life), I would sooo much rather have had alien complications come between Max & Liz than 'another woman.' I would have liked the glowing hickies to have continued to represent the can't-live-with-him/can't-live-without-him syndrome (which I think has recently been touched on with Liz's green lightning streaks). Also, regarding the question of why Max was sooo attracted to Liz from the beginning (and so consistently!), most of the people on this thread wanted a mythological base, but I would have preferred a more sci fi answer (like the VLV flashes). Indeed, the whole bit about kings and politics on Antar has left me a bit cold. I get the impression from reading a JK interview that he too wishes they hadn't gone there. |
Posted 03-10-2002 07:25 PM by Reggie
quote: There's a lot of us that wish that. There's a lot of "theres" as well. <sigh> Adversaries: I wasn't keen on the FBI as vilains. OK, it's Hollywood; the US gov't is always the bad guy, unless it's taking away some minor freedom (like speach or religion), in order to save us from ourselves. Still, the FBI should be Good Guys. Some rogue Army Intellegence unit, clearly understood to be rogue, would have done. Or the FBI as snoops, not vivisectionists. Off-world adversaries: I did like the Skins, as a guerrilla unit infiltrated to search & destroy the Royal Four. Nikolas, properly cast, could have been great. A boy just beginning puberty is NOT going to be able to come back later and look or sound the same. Villans are supposed to be recurring characters, or one-shot straw men! Setting up a divide and conquer strategy would be sensible: first Villandra, whose weakness is her vanity; then Zan, and his playing with power (but not dealing with the consequences); then Ava, whose loyalty follows orders blindly; and then Rath, who only thinks he's smarter than the others. (Remember how Michael would go off, without consulting the others? 285S, Crazy, etc.?) In each case, the podsters growth from who they were as the R4 would save them. Finally, Michael would perceive that he is threatened, and ambush Nikolas. Battle, followed by coverup (FBI wonders what happened), etc. Then, and only then, do we introduce Kivar as a character. It could have been mid-S3 before then. {You may notice that this is the grand arc I've been using; save Tess, then a 3-4 ep. arc endangering Michael, etc.} And what of the other nation/planets? Any hostile ones among them? Allies? Forces external to The Five Planets, that may be allied/opposed to the R4? By the end of S3, we could have Nikolas surrender to Max, because Kivar needs Max's help against a common foe... All this, plus Max & Liz slowly regaining each others' trust after the FMax/Tess thing. Imagine a double date with M&M, and they are the "stable couple". Or for more fun, double date with Kyle & Tess. And then there's Jim running for Sheriff again, with Amy at his side... This show could have been so good... |
Posted 03-10-2002 07:29 PM by Reggie
quote: There's a lot of us that wish that. There's a lot of "theres" as well. <sigh> Adversaries: I wasn't keen on the FBI as vilains. OK, it's Hollywood; the US gov't is always the bad guy, unless it's taking away some minor freedom (like speach or religion), in order to save us from ourselves. Still, the FBI should be Good Guys. Some rogue Army Intellegence unit, clearly understood to be rogue, would have done. Or the FBI as snoops, not vivisectionists. Off-world adversaries: I did like the Skins, as a guerrilla unit infiltrated to search & destroy the Royal Four. Nikolas, properly cast, could have been great. A boy just beginning puberty is NOT going to be able to come back later and look or sound the same. Villans are supposed to be recurring characters, or one-shot straw men! Setting up a divide and conquer strategy would be sensible: first Villandra, whose weakness is her vanity; then Zan, and his playing with power (but not dealing with the consequences); then Ava, whose loyalty follows orders blindly; and then Rath, who only thinks he's smarter than the others. (Remember how Michael would go off, without consulting the others? 285S, Crazy, etc.?) In each case, the podsters growth from who they were as the R4 would save them. Finally, Michael would perceive that he is threatened, and ambush Nikolas. Battle, followed by coverup (FBI wonders what happened), etc. Then, and only then, do we introduce Kivar as a character. It could have been mid-S3 before then. {You may notice that this is the grand arc I've been using; save Tess, then a 3-4 ep. arc endangering Michael, etc.} And what of the other nation/planets? Any hostile ones among them? Allies? Forces external to The Five Planets, that may be allied/opposed to the R4? By the end of S3, we could have Nikolas surrender to Max, because Kivar needs Max's help against a common foe... All this, plus Max & Liz slowly regaining each others' trust after the FMax/Tess thing. Imagine a double date with M&M, and they are the "stable couple". Or for more fun, double date with Kyle & Tess. And then there's Jim running for Sheriff again, with Amy at his side... This show could have been so good... |
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Posted 03-11-2002 04:45 AM by elenac
Just finished watching Off the menu, this was the only S2 episode that I hadn’t seen completely yet. Boring like anything, and the reason why it was moved just before Departure will never be known, in my opinion. One more unanswered question to add up to the pile of unanswered questions Grakel refers to. If the purpose was to avoid that by this episode we uncovered that Tess was behind Alex’s death only because she ME Amy or tried to get into Brody’s head, they are wrong. We already saw her at work in that sense, so we knew and personally I wouldn’t have connected it to Alex. Certainly having seen this ep in its former sequence would have given more depth to Liz’s fear that Max could come up to her one day saying he remembered loving Tess. It could give us the idea that she also felt he was drifting away. c.mccoy – What I would’ve liked to see in the second part of S2 was the continuing of MTD and MITC. It’s simply strange that Khivar and the 4 world’s leaders had no reaction to Max’s turning down the deal and holding the Granolith. The least one could’ve expected is that each of them would do whatever in their power to have the Granolith and then force Max to do something about the war. |
Posted 03-11-2002 01:48 PM by Reggie
quote: Liz's "fear" that Max would drift away? Perhaps I missed something. In "Destiny", she walked away from Max, and stayed out of touch for 3-4 months. When she came back from Florida (S&B), she told Max that things couldn't be the same. From S&B through TEOTW, she held Max at arms length. She made it clear she wasn't interested. In TEOTW, she ripped his heart out, and also fixed Max up with Tess- he caught her at it, so he knows. From TEOTW through HOM, she kept coming closer, then breaking up with him again; spectacularly, on the dance floor at the Prom, after she had gotten him to take her. From CYN on, they were "at war". You think Liz feared Max might be "drifting away"? Liz did everything but throw Max into Tess's arms... no wait, she did that too! And we wonder "What's the matter with Max?". Personally, I'm thinking clinical depression, brought on by the Love of his Life repeatedly betraying him. He loved Liz, but she seems to hate him; and the girl who seems to care, isn't the one he really loves. Then in a moment of weakness, he accepts Girl #2's advances... and then she turns up pregnant! Clinical depression has the right constellation of symptoms, I think. {Where's good ol' Doc Paul when you need her? } As for Brody/Larek's memories of King Zan & Ava: If your best friend and husband were together in front of you, you might think how they met, etc. With the pair of Max & Tess in front of him, might not it bring up his memories of them? – What I would’ve liked to see in the second part of S2 was the continuing of MTD and MITC. It’s simply strange that Khivar and the 4 world’s leaders had no reaction to Max’s turning down the deal and holding the Granolith. The least one could’ve expected is that each of them would do whatever in their power to have the Granolith and then force Max to do something about the war. As for the relationships part: M/T = It was the right occasion for Max, after what they shared in their NY experience, to accept her and make her accepted inside the group. Tell her that he didn’t know what to make of their destiny and their supposed Kingdom, only time could say it. This way she could feel one of them and not want to leave. What could Max do? We wondered about this before: he has no army, or special knowlege of situations; he is just a high-school Junior with a title. I don't think Nikolas or Kivar would have had nothing left to do. As for the M&T relationship: Max hadn't been told that the Object of the Exercise was to get Tess to stay. From what Liz was doing, it seemed she wanted him to get together with Tess. Of course, we, the audience, know better; but Max doesn't. Until Liz tells him about FMax and why she's been pushing him away, Max will have no clue. Unfortunately, it seems that JK & Co. don't either... |
Posted 03-11-2002 09:57 PM by shapeshifter
quote:I haven't seen it in awhile, but I don't recall finding it boring... But the reason they changed the air date was because of a hostage situation/school shooting in California at that time. TPTB thought it would be disrespectful of the feelings of those involved. Not sure I agree.
quote:I agree. And I do remember that rewatching that episode it seemed obvious that Tess mindwarped Brody into having the 'memories.' --though Reggie may disagree.
quote:Yes! What a great idea!
quote:Great diagnosis! ITA! |
Posted 03-12-2002 10:14 AM by elenac
quote: Was Max really so clueless as you say? My question is now, and I don’t mean to be provocative or negative, I’m trying to understand: will men ever stop saying it’s women’s fault? Will they ever be able to elaborate events on their own? The way you describe what happened, Max was just a victim of the action of two women (or only Liz?). About Nicholas and Khivar. If Max was just a high-school boy with a title, why did they even contact him? Why did they even think he could help them in stopping the war in the first place? What was all the purpose of MTD and MITC? Was the Granolith so important? True Max didn’t know anything about the need to keep Tess, we only do. Yet she did feel she wasn’t accepted, their being together in NY could have been a starting point to make her feel she was one of the group. SS - Indeed, the whole bit about kings and politics on Antar has left me a bit cold. I get the impression from reading a JK interview that he too wishes they hadn't gone there. Any clues where he wishes they had gone? |
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Posted 03-12-2002 11:03 AM by GraceKel
Elenac--ITA---the writers have made MAX into the biggest dumb sh*t on the planet---Liz and Kyle never even looked at each other again---Season1 Max would have known something was up with that--and you are right--even during EOTW they had season2 Max saying I know you feel you have to let me go for the sake of .......----and then suddenly he forgets all this????????Hello????? And my interpretation at the PROM was that Liz was waiting for MAX to calm her worst fears away----HE DIDN'T he stood there DUMBFOUNDED---DUH I reject the interpretation that Liz DUMPED Max on the dancefloor for the upteenth time--NO WAY--thats not how I saw it at all. I saw a girl begging him to tell her that what she feared was completely untrue---but truth is he couldn't cuz at this point----he was either being fed this mindwarp or experiencing his former life(whatever!!!) Shapeshifter---as for Jason Katims wishing he hadn't gone full blown with this royal4 thing----he could have thrown this out pretty easily with good writing----but instead--he confirmed it more so with Meet the UGLIES--oh I mean DUPES----but even still I will say a good writer could EVEN write himself out of this stupid story if he truly wanted it. Shapeshifter as for your RUN LOLA RUN thing---I don't anyone here rejected time travel--I think all we ever wanted was something LOGICAL, COMPELLING, and something with EMOTIONAL DEPTH!!!! Was that too much to ask?????????? |
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Posted 03-12-2002 11:13 AM by GraceKel
Just wanted to add--ALL we ever wanted was something LOGICAL, COMPELLING and something with EMOTIONAL DEPTH--you know the way the show started out--in SEASON1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Posted 03-14-2002 03:28 AM by elenac
quote: This will sound crazy, me quoting myself? I was discussing this issue with a colleague of mine who’s also watching Roswell. He says that in real life this is what happens, as men are collocated more on a physical level and don’t go like women into things. He says that watching what happens around him (among unmarried couples), he can say that if a woman wants to be with one particular man sooner or later she will, while men tend to give up and settle with what they have. As for Liz he recognizes her power on all the others, every time she asked someone’s help: Valenti, Kyle and Sean, they did what she was asking. If Kyle or Michael of any other did the same the other wouldn’t have accepted. So applying this way of being to our story, considering that the writers had chosen to go for the Destiny, king and queen storyline, FM was necessary to stop Liz wanting to be with Max, because between the two women (even if with Tess’s alien powers I have some doubt) Liz was the strongest. I also agree that in real life another woman (or man) is often the cause of a relationship’s ending, but not always. Maybe it was too much to hope that a serie about aliens wouldn’t go into that direction, when practically all other series do. [ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
Posted 03-14-2002 08:12 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Yes. But I have done it too. Everyone is crazy, but Roswell fans are not afraid to admit it.
quote:In peaceful times and places, yes, that is true that another woman or man causes the end of a relationship very often. But in times and places of war, it is usually other social forces that break up relationships. I too would have preferred something else (besides another woman) to give conflict to the story. For instance, at the beginning of S2, Michael didn't want to be involved because he was preparing for battle. quote:Maybe because the US has a lot of land, I am sorry to say that there are a lot of children born "out of wedlock." I don't have numbers handy, but I remember that the number doubled towards the end of the millenium. |
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Posted 03-15-2002 10:30 AM by Alexis
I, too, like the idea of the SH rashes being a “I love him, but it’s making me sick” story line, in which Liz and Max would eventually find out that there was a reason (maybe aliens have to wait until a certain age for that kind of contact, or maybe Max was going through “alien puberty” and the after effects rubbed off onto Liz because they have such a strong connection). Also, JK dropped the ball for far too long on the Liz changing story line. And I doubt he’ll go into Liz being all better now. Instead of adding Jesse’s character, they could have added Serena instead. This would give Kyle a love interest and Isabel would need to grow and learn SLOWLY to trust a new guy. They also dragged out the whole Darren story line: no one cared!!! Valenti as a singer??????? I think the idea of him questioning his life since being Sheriff was his identity for so long, but a musician? I hope they make him realize (esp. after CDB) that his skills would be better suited for PI work. That way, they could include story lines where he gets jobs that have alien clues once in awhile. The writers have this story line perfectly set up (he was rejected by the agent, so we are led to believe he could realize he’s not cut out for the big time, so he could still do the musician thing at night and be a PI during the day). Also, Kyle said they couldn’t make their bills so this rejection could be a reality check for him. Plus the fact that he always helps Hanson and he helped in CDB. I wish the writers read this stuff! How about checking the other locations on the map? Michael said that each symbol had a location on the map. If the destiny book was in one location, the orb in another (I’m assuming it was on the map), the pod chamber another, wouldn’t it make sense that the aliens check out all the locations? Duh! The writer’s could have pulled this adventure along, especially since the destiny book was hidden in a wall. They wouldn’t know where to look in some locations, so they would have to figure it out by other clues. Obviously it can’t be every ep where they look at a location, but the writer’s could be creative as to how the next location needs to be searched (they could have the FBI (or nefarious organization depending on your preference ) be suspicious so they have to stop looking for awhile until something compels them to look in another location. Busted should have never happened especially the “I had to try it lines.” Okay, the whole Max/Fmax story line. Max knew in Harvest that Liz was lying and scared. He also knew that something was up in MTD and MITC because Liz told him info. she shouldn’t know AND he asked her again about Kyle and she nodded yes. Now, he should have had faith in her, but he probably figured she didn’t trust him anymore and that is why he gave up. I do agree she did want reassurance from Max at the Prom, but he didn’t answer her (I still say he was being MW/ME by Tess). But did the writers go into this stuff to clean up this story line and move the show to another level? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Anyhoo, that is what I think! [ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: Alexis ] |
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Posted 03-15-2002 02:42 PM by Reggie
elenac: I was discussing this issue with a colleague of mine who’s also watching Roswell. He says that in real life this is what happens, as men are collocated more on a physical level and don’t go like women into things. He says that watching what happens around him (among unmarried couples), he can say that if a woman wants to be with one particular man sooner or later she will, while men tend to give up and settle with what they have. "Give up" and "settle" aren't quite accurate, but you're on the same trail I was a few days ago. A guy will persue a woman, but "if" she turns them down, that has to be the end of it. (His own feelings on the matter, don't matter.) OTOH, if a woman is after a man, he may say "no", but usually he won't get rid of her. She may try again. You think Liz could eventually have won Max? Quite likely. Tess even said she could MW Max to love her, "but it would not last." (Harvest) In which case, Tess would still have left, and TEOTW happens. So, to insure that Tess won, Liz had to keep pushing Max away; even when they naturally came back together. This is what was driving Max crazy; Liz (the love of his life) kept breaking up with him. Clinical depression, brought on by repeated heartbreaks, is my diagnosis. GraceKel: I reject the interpretation that Liz DUMPED Max on the dancefloor for the upteenth time--NO WAY--thats not how I saw it at all. I saw a girl begging him to tell her that what she feared was completely untrue--- Not convinced, eh? Suppose Max had said, "Yes, Liz, I love you with all my heart, with all my soul, with all my might." He takes her in his arms, and kisses her for what seems an eternity... I've never said it wasn't driving Liz crazy, too. But at least she knew why... Shapeshifter---as for Jason Katims wishing he hadn't gone full blown with this royal4 thing----he could have thrown this out pretty easily with good writing----but instead--he confirmed it more so with Meet the UGLIES--oh I mean DUPES----but even still I will say a good writer could EVEN write himself out of this stupid story if he truly wanted it. Well, the R4 thing could have been great for the backstory. After all, look at King Arthur! He was also a boy, intended to be a great King. It provides motivation for his alien enemies (and friends, too). It gives him a "natural nobility" that many of us thought we saw. It opens the door for a Merlin-figure (Tic-tac?). It gives him a goal, and something to offer Liz afterwards. It coulda been a contender... Instead, we got this miserable mess called S3. What a waste. shapeshifter: Not so much land; the effect is greatest in urban areas, and they stay there rather than moving into the country. The problem is that there is almost no reason not to (other than morality), and the Gov't. will pay people for having kids out of wedlock - those born to married parents are not given as much welfare money. With the recent welfare reform, to diminish the incentive, I believe that the illegitimacy rate has leveled off if not declined. (I an look it up, if you are interested.) Alexis: WORD on all the possible story lines (and impossible story lines). But see above, about Max & Liz. |
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Posted 03-15-2002 03:08 PM by The Real Momo
Forgive me if I've touched on some items you have already discussed. I'm actually Momo from the blu5 board and I've never posted here before, usually because I have a problem accessing the forums. As part of the Roswellian Mythology peeps of blu5 (along with greg5,leigh, bethalani, etc., I've never really thought of the pendant as being critical to Liz as protection. The orb signal (which is on the pendant) has always been associated with a form of communication, so I take the pendant to be a form of identification -- to communicate information to other parties about the bearer/wearer of the pendant. That Max is a form of kryptonite is interesting because it appears that Liz is "allergic" to Max -- ie. SH, the rash; the seeming electrical discharges, etc. But I think what we are seeing in Liz is not alien at all -- but an acceleration of human development caused by Max healing Liz. From Nasedo, we know that ALL the pod squad powers come from being human. He tells Michael that in White Room. It's bioengineered into the pod squad. In Liz, we have what appears to be psychic development (psi powers)that have been triggered by a combination of trauma and rapidly accelerating to the point that Liz now equals the pod squad in power. It is believed by parapsychologists that trauma can trigger psychic ability. So Liz, first being shot, then healed by Max triggers Liz's powers. The side effect is that these powers explode in acceleration and that's why Liz is having troubling controlling them. But everything, including the pod squad's powers can all be attributed to some form of psychic pheneomena. Liz certainly is experiencing a time-shift, but the gibberish she's hearing is actually part of the time shift. When she is talking to the Harvard interviewer, what he is asking is "Whether Liz expects to return to Roswell and give back to the community?" If you play it back several times, you get the gist. So rather than being a message from somewhere else, it appears to be a slowing down or bending of time. And when the room begins to spin, what I actually thought I was seeing was the initial steps in the creation of an actual time portal. On the blu board, what I suggested that we are witnessing an electromagntic disturbance similar to those rooted in The Philadelphia Experiment and The Montauk Experiments -- both grounded in theories of electromagnetic waves, pulses and frequencies and how time portals are created. Interestingly enough, such microwaves operate at frequencies associates with psychics. [ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 03-15-2002 03:24 PM by The Real Momo
GraceKel: I agree with you. I don't think Liz's intention at the prom was to break up with Max. What Liz was looking for was reassurances from Max and Max did the worst possible thing: He said nothing in his confusion. What Liz wanted Max to do is to clearly state his position. He didn't. The conversation remained incomplete, allowing room for misinterpretation. Max thought Liz wanted to break up, when in fact, she was looking for the opposite. And when she finds Max kissing Tess, she believes Max has made his choice. |
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Posted 03-15-2002 07:25 PM by mezz
I agree that at the prom Max was confused. Also, as a slow brained person, I can understand that Max didn't react immediately. Admittedly I have always been on Max's side in this mess, but Liz has given him so many conficting signals. He might have been able to get his thoughts together and answer given time, but Liz leaves him in confusion - after dropping this bomb about how he is hurting her so much when probably all he can think of is how she is hurting him so much - to go and dance with Maria. She doesn't give him time to respond and so, abandoned he sits outside to let the emotional assult settle and Tess walks in. We know Liz's reasons for being conficted. All Max knows is that his love, that was his strength and rock is now knocking him off balance continually and then getting mad when he acts in a way she doesn't like. All he is doing is trying to find someone to hold his heart. In SH he comments to Liz that he never thought he would have the joy of having someone know, really know him and 'still feel that way about me'. This is why Max was strong. But she betrayed him. She betrayed him to the core of his being, in a place he has told her he most fears rejection, and then says he is hurting her. No, I'm definately on Max's side. I think Liz can feel justified in anger and hurt at Max letting her down but some of that anger she vents at Max must be mixed with guilt. Sorry, long post. |
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Posted 03-15-2002 09:26 PM by shapeshifter
Reggie and Elenac and Mezz, I think we have all actually reached a point of agreement about Liz's feelings here. Amazing! Maybe we should we plan a fact finding mission to the Middle East? Seriously, I recall a radio preacher saying to men that when a wife (or soulmate if you're an alien king) says she's leaving, what she wants to hear more than anything is "Please don't go." But if you're the soulmate to an alien king, sometimes you have to leave the dance floor before he has a chance to find those words.
quote: Hey Momo!!! So glad you're here! I've quoted you somewhere around here. BTW, over at R*A*M*S I had to register as "The Real Shapeshifter." image from michelle23's site: [ 03-15-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
Posted 03-16-2002 03:38 PM by elenac
quote: Maybe it was in a cut scene? I couldn't find this in that ep and I can't recall Tess said it in an aired episode. When Liz and Tess were in the car they only talked about Liz sleeping with Kyle. More about Tess. Today I was watching Departure with my 9 year old daughter who's a fan of Tess and when it was clear that Tess killed Alex she stood up and left the room saying "enough I won't watch anymore". This evening she asked me if it was the director that wanted Tess to be Alex's killer. [ 03-16-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 03-16-2002 06:52 PM by Reggie
Reggie: Tess even said she could MW Max to love her, "but it would not last." (Harvest) elenac: Maybe it was in a cut scene? I couldn't find this in that ep and I can't recall Tess said it in an aired episode. When Liz and Tess were in the car they only talked about Liz sleeping with Kyle. <sigh> Could be. We do get some of the best lines, from the cutting room floor. Your daughter- the poor kid. She's got company. But it was Jason Katims that did it, and at the last minute: remember, Colin Hanks only wanted time off, but JK killed Alex instead. This triggered the whole "Alex Files" arc. If he hadn't, then everything in the last 6 episodes of S2 would have been different. (The foreshadowing actually starts in "How the Other Half Lives", IIRC, when Alex and Kyle were trapped in the hole and discussed death.) If she's not too easily frightened, you might let her read my fanfics Departure, Pt. 2 and Windup. They both have happy endings (of course), and are conventional-couples friendly. D2 seems a bit on the "horror" side, until you recognise the B story. The Real Momo: No, Liz wasn't looking for Max to choose her. She needed Max to be with Tess, as FMax said must be. When it happened, she was heartbroken... but she accepted it. |
Posted 03-17-2002 01:47 PM by shapeshifter
quote:
quote:I can't find it either, but I can picture the whole conversation. It's not a mindwarp! GraceKel!! Or someone else? What ep was that? BTW, slightly OT: while I was searching for it, I came across Tess asking Whitaker's "mother" what CW was like when she was Tess's age. If CW was a skin, like Courtney, she would have been the same age for the last 50 years at least, and would never have been in a teenage human form. Tess would have known this, so the question was sort of a set up to see if Momma Skin would choke on it (but she didn't). |
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Posted 03-17-2002 08:52 PM by GraceKel
Shapeshifter it was cut dialogue from Destiny between Tess and Liz. |
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Posted 03-17-2002 09:31 PM by shapeshifter
Thanks GraceKel. Wow. I was so sure I had seen the scene. (Vivid imagination strikes again! ) Anyway, I have morphed the image posted on crashdown for webmeisters to use, and we Liz Mythers now have our very own, inspiring, Season 4 Petition link on the IMAGE: www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/s4petition.jpg Mods, Pretty Pul-lease don't close this thread if it hits 250 before tomorrow night and Zero doesn't get a chance to start the new one. Thank you!! [ 03-17-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 03-18-2002 09:13 AM by Zero
Looks like I'm back just in time to start a NEW Thread!! Hi All!! See you on Thread #58! Zero |