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Television » Roswell (1) Topic Subject: Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology - Thread #58 |
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Posted 03-18-2002 09:19 AM by Zero
Welcome to the Table of Contents to the Introduction to the 58th Thread :grin: of the continuing discussion of "Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology." The Introduction became so long, Shapeshifter graciously agreed to host it on a website. Below is the Table of Contents to the Intro with links! Hopefully, this will continue to make this Thread accessible to everyone interested in Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology. The Intro includes summaries of all our past discussions through the end of Season 2, so is well worth reading if you are NEW to our thread! The Intro has only been up-dated to reflect observations, clues, discussions and theories through Departure and the end of Season 2, and it may be a while before more is added – unless we get a Season 4! The last three episodes had lots to talk about, especially “CCChanges.” Thank you Aaron and Gretchen!! But it will take me a bit of time to gather thoughts and decide whether it’s worth the time to update the Intro if we don’t get another season. (All of our observations from Seasons 1&2 added to our belief in Liz’s strength, the Hero’s Journey she is on and importance of Liz to the aliens – whether they know and appreciate it or not!) So, HAVE FUN reading the Intro, and hopefully, it will refresh your memory about a specific topic or a specific date that causes you to think up some new theory! The links make that much easier! (THANK YOU Shapeshifter!) Major changes are “starred” for ease of reading if you don’t want to read the entire thing! There is never a dull moment on this Thread! We appreciated the refocus during the end of Season 2 on Liz’s importance to the storyline! (Thank you JK and RM! ) :grin: Even though Heart of Mine, Cry Your Name, It’s Too Late & It’s Too Bad, Baby It’s You, Off The Menu and Departure (which I collectively refer to as the “Stepford Max” Chronicles in the Intro) had many inducing scenes, we were provided tons of stuff to chat about and dissect! !! Plus – we had so many newbies joining into the discussion last summer - which was wonderful! It is nice to see some of those same people back after CCCChanges!! I will update a bit below once I have some time to include some observations from CCCChanges!! Feedback is always welcome! :grin: Just PM me. TABLE OF CONTENTS Just a reminder - Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY! What is Subject for Discussion? Liz's importance to the Pod Squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings - especially Max - and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we discuss. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they ALL tend to lead back to Liz's importance! (Especially lately!) We are an optimistic and friendly - though seriously anal retentive - group! So - dive in, and join the fun!! But remember – NO SPOILERS! We want everyone to feel welcome! Liz is Important - The Liz/Max Connection Consequence of the Connection - the Change? Origin of the Connection - Where is Liz from, really? Granolith - How does it fit in? Symbolism - WE Do Not Ignore Anything! Chariots of Fire - Liz's Necklace in VLV The "Bride" - will the real one please stand up! The Books - WHY Doesn't anyone read these things? Vision Quest - How does Liz fit in? Time Travel - "Run, Lola, Run" Grandma Claudia - the first connection? Sheila Hubble - Eerie resemblance to Liz! - What's the connection? Venus - Liz's mythical connection to the stars! Numbers - It all adds up to Liz and Max! Cave Map Symbols - All signs lead to Liz? Skins - What lies below the surface? Shapeshifters - Are there more than one? Horray!! We got a second shapeshifter with the introduction of the (evil??) Cal Langley, producer extraordinaire, in Hollywood! But is he Tic Tac?? Class is still out on that one, but Cal was in Roswell in 1959 – the year Atherton was killed, and we know that Cal is a killer – though his killing method seems to be slightly different (and more intense) than Harding’s and how Atherton was killed. Time will tell how Cal fits in, but obviously he has been “watching” for a while! Handholding - the symbol of the V constellation Dates seem to be of extreme interest to those on this thread. So, follow the link to a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes, official sites and factual research. If you find a date I’ve missed or see one that is wrong – PM me with the change and where you got your information! I’m always looking for new dates! New ones yet to be added: Finally, (I always have to add this - if anyone from the production staff, crew or UPN reads this or the Intro), WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!! Even Ron Moore stated in the commentary for Ask Not that the "Max and Liz relationship is so strong and so central to the entire series!" To have the opportunity for a Season 3 on UPN is WONDERFUL, and this show has the potential to be another “X-files” with intimate relationships IF done right! A couple of general Thread "Rules" - NO SPOILERS (even asides about spoilers are not allowed), but anything "aired" is subject to discussion, including coming attractions/preview and things on the Silverhandprint site. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers. If you know what a preview “really means” due to spoilers, please DON’T tell us – let us speculate – we will find out soon enough! And discussion of the books is now okay – though you might hold some stuff back for those of us who still have to read them! Thanks! As Alex - true and loyal friend to Liz whose life ended too soon - said - "Gripa det dagen" (seize the day)! Liz found the TRUTH, and will avenge his death! (Tess – beware – you have no idea what you have released in the B*#@h!) Zero |
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Posted 03-18-2002 01:05 PM by *M&L4eva*
i just wanna say that everyone would be lost without liz. she has the brains, the looks, and the personality to do anything she wants and she should be queen to the other planet(max, michael, & Isabel's) |
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Posted 03-18-2002 01:48 PM by elenac
Gracekel - Shapeshifter it was cut dialogue from Destiny between Tess and Liz. Was that so far back? Do you know in which occasion it took place and what else they exchanged? Talking about Departure, when the R4 are in the Granolith chamber at the beginning of the ep and Max is explaining how it works, he says: The Granolith is capable of one mission, only one. When we use it, it’s gone. [ 03-18-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 03-18-2002 09:11 PM by The Real Momo
Hi shapeshifter! I finally made it here! I got a new computer and loaded it with memory so now I can access the forums fine now. I wanted to make it clear that Liz can have powers and still be 100% human. I think it's important to the whole Liz mythology since Liz is really the one who breaks the cycle of "repeating history". Had the Max/Tess/Isabel/Michael relationships stayed intact, the pod squad was setting itself up to repeat past mistakes. There is really two issues I want to concentrate on right now. The first goes back to the "Arthurian" mythology upon which Roswell is loosely based. As I have commented on both the WB and blu boards early on, Max obviously fills the role of Arthur and "The Fisher King"; Liz the Pervical/Sir Galahad role. And in Chant Down, Babylon, we see perhaps a completion or partial completion here. Max, in the role of Arthur/Fisher King, is wounded, dying even. Liz, as Pervical/Galahad represents the only person who can heal the king. Why? Because that role is always ascribed to the person who is pure of heart and deed and that person is always the person who goes through the most trials. Based on our three years of episodes, Liz is the only character who fulfills these requirements. So it is fitting that when ClayMax dies, Liz is the one who brings the king back to life. Thematically, it also brings the themes of reincarnation, regeneration, and rebirth full cycle. How that is done boils down to electromagnetics (maybe). First, we have to understand what happens to Max when he morphs into ClayMax. Max tells Meris Wheeler that he can't heal Clayton because "it doesn't work that way." He can't "save someone from a natural death." However, Meris gives him no option. It's try something or die. I personally don't think Max was trying to heal Clayton. I think he knowingly pushing his essense into Clayton and when Max's "essense" or "soul" leaves Max's body, it crumbles to dust because it is no longer needed. So how does Max become ClayMax to Max? All human cells contain a genetic blueprint. Therefore, I'm making a great leap of faith by saying that life in general, especially life that is able to regenerate itself, has cells that carry a genetic DNA blueprint. So while Max's essense is pushed into Clayton, the genetic/biological blueprint is being transferred via Max's cells which physically come into contact with Clayton's body. The presense of Michael's blood extract with the gandarium becomes the bridge for Max to graph his cells onto Clayton's body and begin to regenerate. The process of regeneration begins with an electromagnetic current which runs throughout Clayton's body. As the negative charges build in the body, the cells are assigned certain tasks that allow Max to rebuild his physical form and cells which are no longer needed (Clayton's) begin to switch off as Max's switch on. Much like binary code (which I'll get to later). Similar to regeneration of salamanders, but with a twist. To accomplishment this, salamanders need only a small DC current running through the body; I'd say Max probably does something similar at higher amps/voltages. Now we have one body with two souls occupying it. Since only one soul can live in a body, one has to go and that internal struggle for power begins. Ironically, Meris addresses Clayton, not Max, and tells him "You have to kill the one you love to be free" and Clayton literally kills the woman he loves which gives Max a foothold. Enter Liz. Again, electromagnetics plays a part. In Liz, the alternating charge is not flowly freely, It's building up charge and that's why we are seeing these violent power bursts. However, when she touches Max when's she's actually helping Max gain control of ClayMax, by sending negative energy (which speeds regeneration). But to fully exorcize Clayton, the body must physically die. So, at the point of impact, ClayMax dies and Liz kisses Max. The reason that happens is because, at death, it is believed the soul leaves the body but hangs around for a short time. If there is nothing to reconnect the soul to the body, the soul then dissipates into thin air. Liz's kiss attracts Max's soul back to the body until it reconnects. Clayton without Meris has nothing to reattach himself to and his soul dies. But, if the human body, is not able to withstand high amps and voltages that is associated with pod squad powers, then how is Liz able to physically survive. Well, as many of us on the blu board have discussed (greg5, debe, fido and company on The CadmiumX thread), the answer could be CadmiumX. The one thing we know about the element Cadmium (which ironically came into use at the end of WWII) is that it is used as a preservative to keep storage tanks from rusting and that it is used for storage in Ni-Cad batteries. That means that the CadmiumX introduced, then later absorbed into Liz's body is somehow acting as storage and a protection and that is why she has powers and that is why she can survive with powers. |
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Posted 03-18-2002 09:43 PM by The Real Momo
How Liz's dress came to be at Meta-Chem is really easy. Meris tells us that the dress was analysed by the best scientists from all over the world for over two years. That means Meta-Chem had possession of the dress since almost the beginning. So one of several things had to have happened. 1. Meta-Chem is part of the international consortium that funds the Special Unit. Therefore, the Special Unit turned over the dress to the consortium for analysis upon their request. 2. Meta-Chem was built after the medical facilities at Eagle Rock were exposed in S1 and Meta-Chem is actually the new home of the Eagle Rock Medical facility used by the Special Unit. Therefore, the Special Unit turned over the dress to Meta-Chem along with Max's files, etc. This would explain why Grant was also in Roswell. He was hired by a chemical company to see if it was safe to build there and he could also have provided the source of gandarium to Meta-Chem (which might have been the blue goo that Carl was stealing in The Great Snapple Caper). 3. Meris Wheeler admits to killing people for her husband. It's possible that Agent Stephens, who had possession of Liz's dress during/after analysis, was killed by Meris Wheeler's goons and the dress was taken. If I remember right, Liz's dress was not listed in the objects held by the FBI on the www.silverhandprint.com run by the WB. |
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Posted 03-18-2002 11:14 PM by shapeshifter
Zero, Thank you so much for starting the new thread! Elenac, ITA, the granolith is a thing of the past now. Wormholes are the means of transport for the fashion-conscious Antarian. Momo, Thank you soooo much for the awesome Arthurian/SciFi post!!! IMAGE: www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/s4petition.jpg (image morphed by shapeshifter from PassionFruit's S4 petition banner) |
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Posted 03-19-2002 08:44 AM by The Real Momo
shapeshifter, I'm not sure I'm ready to let the Granilith go as "a thing of the past". I think it's an important piece of the puzzle that maybe the writers haven't fully introduced yet. An object that is worshipped by Antarians/Skins and the other planets as "The Holy Grail" is not merely a spaceship. While the writers have said they meant to keep it simple, in fact, keeping it as a one-way ticket home doesn't make sense. The Granilith must be an object that can reinvent itself (ie. like in EOTW, Liz and Serena have found a way to make the Granilith into a time machine). If it is an object of importance to all five planets, then I'm more inclined to believe that it is associated with regeneration (which is in keeping with the Grail) -- that it can be used for "creating or recreating life". And therefore, it has a myriad of uses. Creating food, weather, intergalatic pansmersia, hybrids, etc. And to the granilith, Liz again is probably the most important because in her role as "the King's healer", she is also "the keeper of the Grail". So Liz, again, is the one who can unlock the mysteries of the Granilith. It would be a terrible injustice by the writers to give us the Granilith as merely a spaceship and I'm hoping that by season's end or if we are lucky enough, we get to see Liz, our budding molecular biologist, unlock the key to the Granilith. It is no accident that Liz is interested in molecular biology. |
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Posted 03-19-2002 08:48 AM by The Real Momo
Oops ... I'm thinking to fast for my fingers. Last paragraph should read ... if we are lucky enough to get a S4. Sorry! |
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Posted 03-19-2002 04:24 PM by shapeshifter
Of course, if Liz could figure out how to operate in Courtney's "alternate subsets of time," she could bring back Alex and retool the Granolith. |
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Posted 03-19-2002 07:08 PM by The Real Momo
I have no doubt in my mind that Liz can figure out how the multiple timesets work. Liz was the one who discovered the electromagnetic/microwave signal the Skins imposed in Wipeout. That's half the answer. By adjusting frequencies, she'll discover the rest she needs to need about living with powers and multiple subsets. Plus it makes it possible for Liz to go to Antar, time travel and do all sorts of unusual things. However, somewhere in Antarian prophecy lies the riddle to Liz's link to the Squad. And the folklore is probably there. I think Ava recognized it because she alone knew that Max brought her back from the dead. I'm not sure Tess does. But there was that instant recognition in Ava's face which suggests she knew more. So it's probably safe to think there is a story about "The Coming of the Once and Future King" in connection with a particular person on Antar. That person must be Liz. Anyone thinking about Liz in connection with the book Lost Treasures by Claudia Parker and its ties with the Cave Map yet? I'd really like to know more about the Parker family genealogy, especially if there is Indian blood. [ 03-19-2002: Message edited by: The Real Momo ] [ 03-19-2002: Message edited by: The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 03-19-2002 07:15 PM by Crashdown1218
very interesting |
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Posted 03-19-2002 08:27 PM by DeNnls
Destiny was a really good episode that really pin pointed the connection between Max and Liz. Rememeber the White Room? ALL the visions he had were of Liz.. She is definetly important to the alien mythology.. and most definetly I beleive, has some ancestory relation to the aliens. |
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Posted 03-19-2002 10:26 PM by Zero
Hi all! Sorry I have been missing in action! "Life" and work (and a lack of anything really relevant to add) have kept me away. But You are all sooo impressive! the real momo have you read the Intro? You would love some of what we all have touched on in relationship to what you bring up! I would love to see a true "mythology" finally fleshed out on this show!! Zero |
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Posted 03-20-2002 04:03 AM by c. mccoy
Zero: Welcome back, chief. Life does get in the way, doesn't it? It's almost as bad JK's giant foot that he currently has in his mouth Has anyone here besides me & Reggie written fanfiction? If you have any writing talent, try it! It's great fun! I've just completed the first story in what I'm calling The Roswell Chronicles over at www.roswellfanfic.com The Granolith is one of the reason why I chose to write fanfic in the first place. I absolutely hated what they ended up doing with it. For crying out loud, JK himself - unless it was his alter ego who wrote TEOTW - said it was very important & then he turned into a ship! That mad me so mad! |
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Posted 03-20-2002 08:34 AM by The Real Momo
Zero: I've have read everything from the intro yet, but intend you. You have a lot of material here, so I have some catching up to do with what you have and what you haven't covered (when life doesn't get in the way). I know shapeshifter and some others have brought over quotes from the blu board on things we have discussed there and on the earlier WB board to this thread and possibly others. I will, of course, be reading it all. This is a great thread. So bear with me while I sift through it all and pardon me if I'm covering old ground. It's sometimes helpful to go back when approaching the future. Note: You can call me Momo for short. I just had to register that way 'cause someone somewhere on fan forum someone already registered as Momo. I just put The Real Momo down so that people who already know me can sort us out. cmccoy I write fanfiction also which is on my site: http://nav.to/momosroswell . I have a couple of stories there which deal with Liz and her relationship with the Granilith if you feel like checking them out some time. Interestingly enough, I also have a story which deals with the "electrical energy" power that Liz is "current"ly experiencing. There's also a theory page called The Pod Chamber (under construction) which illustrates different theories with supporting screen caps. Most are summaries of stuff from the old WB board (the Arthurian Roswell) and blu (the Cave Map which is up and the coming Cadmium X thread in its entirety so far). The Cave Map is relavant to Liz and I'll be revising it slightly soon with further observations. I see there is a link for that here and I'll be checking that out. |
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Posted 03-20-2002 07:35 PM by shapeshifter
momo, Surely you and everyone else must know by now that I have been on a quest for the holy grail of the Lost Roswellian Arthur Theories since the first great pruning of FF threads at the end of Season 1 (see the Grail section of the Archetypes page of the Theories Archive)! Do not toy with my remaining shreds of sanity after all these years and plot twists. Pulll-lease email me all and anything (provided it's in text only format) to plum@ulink.net |
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Posted 03-20-2002 08:19 PM by mezz
momo - great thoughts. |
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Posted 03-20-2002 09:46 PM by The Real Momo
shapeshifter - I will gather what I have saved from the old WB threads. Alas and I had some discussions early on I saved and you might want to try to PM bethelani at blu5. I think she as well as I did a scavenger hunt on the WB board to get as many of our old threads before the WB dumped them. Maybe I'll repost some of it here, too, as a refresher, especially in light of recent developments. I just printed out a whole bunch of stuff to read tonight to prevent repeating some material, but there's so much material here that I know I'm probably going to slip up. For mythologists at large -- another Arthurian bit of symbolism hit me while rewatching Chant Down. When Liz enters her dorm room, she is wearing a sweater with the hood up. What struck me is how it resembled a knight's chain mail. Perhaps a reference to Liz and her role as the Sir Percival/Sir Galahad role? And did anybody notice the moosehead at The Ratt, too? The 2nd recent moose reference (the first in CCC as noted in thread 57)! [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 03-21-2002 12:38 PM by Alexis
I’ve been MIA for awhile. Busy busy! This is from the previous thread: Thanks, Reggie , I would have to say WORD back to you on a ton of your comments! Psi powers are generally strongest during puberty when your body is changing and growing. A traumatic event has also been known to increase psychic ability. The puberty/changes theme bringing about psi connections is one of the reasons why I was hoping the writers would go into this around SH (well given more detail). |
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Posted 03-22-2002 06:09 PM by shapeshifter
Alexis, ITA, SH was the peak of Roswell; after that ep it seemed that JK took a wrong turn and decided to explore new areas rather than back out. I think some of his explorations were worth the price of the ticket, but the cost to him has grown to lethal proportions. Many fans (myself included) celebrate "Season 1" and bemoan S's 2 & 3. But in reality, it was all downhill after SH when T was introduced. The downhill slide would have been okay if it hadn't lasted until the end of S2--but it did. I REALLY WISH Tess & Liz could have become friends, and Tess & Kyle could have been the ones to do the Bewitched episode (Alex & Isabel too). Liz could have saved Isabel from Kvar with her newly developed powers. Just thought I'd share this from someone who was at Covina recently: quote:--read full post on Roswell 2 at Our group's talk with JK and GK.. we were the fans mentioned in NetRanger's report [ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 03-22-2002 08:55 PM by The Real Momo
shapeshifter: As promised, here's some quotes regarding the Arthurian aspects of Roswell from the old WB Roswell board. I'm still looking for the early, early ones. This one is a thread I started after Wipeout called Max: The Once and Future King. These are all quotes from me on this thread:
quote:
quote:
quote: Hope this helps! I will continue rummaging and see if I can find the first threads with Alas and company. Since that time, I've done some fine tuning, especially regarding Tess who does turn out to be a composite of Morgana Le Fey (Fay) and Guinivere. |
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Posted 03-22-2002 09:24 PM by GraceKel
Shapeshifter--interesting that a MAJORITY of FANS keep beating it over the heads of these writers who NOW ADMIT that they DO read these boards that OUR PASSION was BORN in SEASON1 and that they have been disappointing us ever since and they still go DUH??????? Another thing that bothers me beyond belief is they are admitting that the writers only know the stuff that they have written--HELLO---I can quote DIALOGE word for word from almost any episode----but thats the problem right there isn't it---in order to be a good writer you have to be a FAN of what you are writing--and if its shared writing then you should be watching each others backs to make sure the T's are crossed and I's are dotted---and all CHADS are covered----SCIFI fans are sticklers for details. I thought that is what they wanted SCIFI fans?????????? Another problem with this show is they have been seeking a stronger MALE fandom--HELLO---YOU HAVE FEMALES watching it--whats wrong with that---WHY NOT TRY TO INCREASE your FEMALE BASE even stronger----why not let the fans who were so passionate about the show help you by pleasing them---afterall--they please you, and you tell your family or a friend, and so to be watching---------seriously I haven't been able to recommend this show to anyone since season2 started. Shapeshifter you said it was all downhill with the introduction of Tess but I will go you one better--another HUGE MIS-STEP was trying to replace the FEMALE LEAD---Shiri was clearly the lead actress on this show from the beginning. And it made perfect sense---Liz brings the humans in and Max brings the aliens in, Maria, Alex and Kyle provide the humor, Michael and Isabel provide some humor as well as conflict---yes thats how I saw them in season 1 providing CONFLICT and then we have Sheriff first providing conflict but later providing support. But lets face it if they were going to leave his character to languish in the dust they would have been better off leaving the sheriff as an adversary. He walks around now like his head is in a cloud--hello???? I don't get it, what are they trying to tell me--is it the blue rocks? What? LOL!!!! What kills me the most is we won't get an explanation til the next cd or dvd comes out-huh!!!! The saddest news of all I heard was that poster who won the trip on set with the writers was pretty much told that there is almost a total disconnect between seasons---------I am sorry but these people just don't care. Jason Katims said this audience was SPECIAL, small but SPECIAL--ya darned tootin---but he claims the networks took us for granted---and what about the writers???????? I was smart enough to realize the bloom was fully off the rose by the start of season3----but I was stupid enough to still believe that although I didn't agree with everything Katims did HE DID HAVE A PLAN, something connecting the 3 seasons, that all that was happening was leading somewhere---and I thought well at least he will end it well-huh!!! But I guess I was wrong, I have lost total faith now. |
Posted 03-22-2002 11:31 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Thanks Momo! Now I understand what was meant by others when they said Liz was the Holy Grail or The Granolith. But also, reading the first part of the quote above, I wonder if Zan of Antar was Arthur & Max is Mordred. GraceKel, While ITA with your post, I also feel incredibly sorry for JK, who was, ironically, trying to 'follow his heart,' which was precisely what led him astray (maybe that's the metaphor for Busted? being led totally off target like the show?). Still, for me, nearly all episodes (even those that caused me to blush with embarrassment over a bad concept or bit of bad film editing or bad acting) have generally kept me on the edge of my seat. No, the story arcs are not what I would have wanted to have had happen, but then neither is life ever like what we expected.
[ 03-22-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 03-23-2002 08:00 AM by GraceKel
The Real Momo---you have come up with some great material with regards to King Arthur and the Holy Grail but now that I had my eyes fully forced open I am not longer convinced there is or was any grand scheme, its a pity though, that is for sure. Shapeshifter I never wanted to direct the story to go in a fashion that I would like, I had much grander hopes than that, I was hoping that writers in their field of expertise would come up with something far greater than I could have even imagined. I was hoping they would blow my socks off, and as time has worn on I even lowered my expectations to the point that if they at least entertain me that will be accomplishing something-LOL but only so much slack can be given. |
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Posted 03-23-2002 02:39 PM by The Real Momo
To a certain extent, I would have to disagree about the writers. I never expected the writers to know what is going on in all the episodes merely because the different writers would be writing episodes while other episodes are being filmed. So I wouldn't have expected the writers to be fully on top of each and every episode during a particular shooting season. For example, while Busted was being filmed, Significant Others may be in the process of writing. So CHADS will always occur. I do believe that their is an overall thematic goal decided for each year that gives direction to the overall story and that metaphor and mythology supplement that. However, I do feel that Season 2 writers should know all of Season 1, and Season 3 writers should know all of Season 1 and 2. It's called doing your homework. But while episodes for an entire year may not be written, a concept for the season is -- going from point A to point B. So there is a grand scheme, but perhaps not as we, the audience, and even, they, the writers, envision it. For example, Season 1 was to set up the love story, but we didn't get that because half way through TPTB began tinkering with the concept and heightened the sci-fi aspects. In early interviews, the writers have acknowledged that certain storylines were more or less abandoned (i.e. the Indian mythology or Native American if you prefer) because of network pressure. So, naturally, gaps, chads, whatever are going to occur because Roswell has never been given time to develop the way it was intended. Season 2 has had front office interference and now the same can be said for Season 3. Even the season finale is a "condensed version" of what Katims intended. It's a very difficult situation to be in and satisfy everyone. Frankly, I want to see Season 4 someplace what Roswell is appreciated and where its growth is natural and not continually forced. I want to see the story told as it should be because the story is far from finished and the story is worth telling. |
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Posted 03-23-2002 05:36 PM by mezz
I agree totally Momo. How on earth can anyone make a story be what they originally envisioned when half way through a season TPTB say "oh, by the way, now you only have half the eps you want, but maybe you can have 3 more, but perhaps we'll give you six. We're fully behind you, we'll support you all the way, but we're cutting your season in half. But we'll be nice to you and give you a 2 hour finale, but then maybe we won't..." No one could be completely consistent under such treatment. Yes I know money plays a part but those in charge should have had more faith in the original concept. Short term goals by them have, IMO made for long term difficulties that perhaps wouldn't have been there if they had let the original themes play themselves out. This is forever the dilemma for the creative- it takes time, grows slowly and is always being squeezed by money pressures. Things that are not valued today esp in TV by those who quibble over 2-3% of viewing rates. [ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: mezz ] |
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Posted 03-23-2002 07:45 PM by GraceKel
Momo and Mezz I understand what you are saying, I really do, but certainly when you have been through 2 seasons of uncertainty already, you should certainly prepare for the same to happen again, that RATINGS would factor in with deciding how long your season is going to be--yes we had heard that they were getting 22 full episodes in the beginning but later it was changed to oh no actually we were told we had 13 and if network was satisfied they would give the full 22---well then you plan accordingly. We might only have 13 so lets make it a TOP NOTCH 13 to MAINTAIN our ORIGINAL AUDIENCE and attract new viewers---yes a balance is needed---how do we please the CORE FANS but yet add EXTRAS to attract a larger audience----you don't use and abuse your core audience,take them for granted and say well we've already got them and if we lose a few well, look how much we will gain. But it appears as though this is exactly what they did. Mezz I agree with you--they SHOULD HAVE had more FAITH in the ORIGINAL PREMISE--afterall--it was the original premise that built them an albeit small but passionate audience and CRITICAL ACCLAIM as well--yes at the time critics were cheering this show on too. They should have EMBRACED this audience--not take it for granted. We are fans from all over the country and out of it----a perfectly good sampling of their audience-hell if 5000 Nielsen families can decide the fate of a show then certainly random posters from everywhere around the globe are a good sample of their audience and what is attracting the interest and what is not working. A part of me wishes that when the WB said they wanted to reinvent this show, that the show handlers simply said, we thinking we have a winning formula here, a cult fan base in the making, we have critical acclaim, and maybe another network will see this great potential untapped and will air the show just the way it is and simply try to promote the show properly and continue with some patience that quality will win out. But instead its like selling your soul to the devil. |
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Posted 03-23-2002 09:23 PM by shapeshifter
Mezz, GraceKel, & Momo, All good points. One other possible cause of audience turn-off might be the handling of the character of Tess by a male writer (JK). Yes, she was supposed to have memories from her other life, but she was also supposed to be a teen, and a teen girl would not be so sexually agressive--I don't think. It's just plain creepy to think of her giving Max mindwarps in Season one of them kissing naked when she's supposed to be about 16 in human terms. It was, as you say, a large female audience that was attracted to the romance of Max and Liz, and a female audience would quickly be turned off by the lack of authenticity of a character like Tess. Those of us who still saw the potential have hung on, but there were just not enough of us. Goodness, how we all complain! Is it April 23rd yet? |
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Posted 03-23-2002 10:43 PM by mezz
About Tess- not all 16 yr olds are unagressive. Boy some 12 year olds make your hair curl with what they act out and know, so it is fine IMO to have made Tess like that. Her background on earth has never been fully explained and neither has her relationship with Nascedo. Any number of things could have made her like she is. Also the Tess/Ava switch theory kind of explains that a bit (if it did indeed happen). After all, everyone has the potential to be awful, look at the Dupes, except that for some reason Ava wasn't like the dupes. It is that Tess was inconsistent that is weird for me. Hopefully that will be explained at some time. When someone is the traitor I think it has to be set up character wise better than it was. And if it was a mindwarp on Tess by Nicholas that should be dealt with too. JK keeps saying that the audience couldn't cope with the complexities of the Sci-fi in S2 and the dupes and where the stories went. I don't think that we couldn't cope with them it's just that the stories were never ended. The dupes are only confusing because they were so threatening and devious and then just disappeared. As far as we know, Nicholas was never dealt with finally and yet he seems to have disappeared also. What is the follow up on Ava? It's not the story archs that are confusing, it's that the arch begins and then never completes itself. Having said that, and what I said before (and I agreed with the replies) I have consistently enjoyed Roswell. I am only up to S2 as we have not been shown S3 yet and when that will happen is anybody's guess (and in Oz they tend to show us 2 eps at a time with 6 - 8 weeks in between ) But I heard terrible things about S2 and then enjoyed it immensley (though the blue Queen was a little ) and I imagine I will feel the same about S3. But then I'm not a sci-fi/myth freak. So I can overlook more faults and just go for the philosophy and emotional angle. Ok enough raving. [ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: mezz ] |
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Posted 03-23-2002 10:59 PM by GraceKel
Good points Shapeshifter, but I must tell you that the way Tess turned out did not surprise me, she came in as deceptive and left as deceptive-LOL---it was the actions of Max that FLOORED ME and continue to-I won't go into detail, hardly necessary I am sure, you all have watched all the episodes. But if your soul is still your soul like Alex said-then where did this Max come from and why? And just how long is a very unlikable lead suppose to hold my interest anyway, unless you can at least understand the motivation? And this leads me to Isabel Evans somehow being catapulted to female lead status since season 2----now in season1 Isabel was presented as the ice princess, with some vulnerability beneath the surface but still she had enough snottiness to her that also wasn't very endearing. Of course I still had enough interest to learn more about Isabel during season1 but certainly didn't like her enough to put her in lead category that is for sure-----and so now this season we have had two unlikeable leads for the most part-Max and Isabel-------and I am suppose to be entertained? Well at least up til Busted I could at least root for Liz, her character was still recognizable but they have even done a job on our Liz as well. Maria has changed her personality 3 seasons in a row, we went from warm and wacky, to sarcastic and somewhat arrogant at times to straight man??? And quite frankly Michael going from the way he once was to being completely humanized so quickly was as unrealistic to me as Max changing his personality in the other direction. Another problem I see is JK catering too much to his casts desires, I remember reading somewhere what cool power would you like and he said flying--and we had him flying in second episode, we all know Maj is interested more in launching her singing career than being part of Roswell, so we got lots of singing, Brendan likes to golf, I guess Bill likes to sing too......I think he should have concentrated on his fandom more than pleasing cast members don't you? |
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Posted 03-24-2002 10:12 PM by GraceKel
Sorry if I have offended anyone with my brutal honesty-certainly did not intend this so if I have, sorry again---Nobody wanted this show to succeed more than I did, and I still love the original premise and untapped potential of Roswell, thats it, I guess I was more in love with the idea of Roswell, and nobody is more disappointed than I am that it appears that in fact the emperor has no clothes. |
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Posted 03-24-2002 11:13 PM by shapeshifter
GraceKel, Me too. Even shapeshifter the Pollyanna Supreme had to let a little hard truth come out. But I still love the show too . And good point about JK catering to the cast with regards to plot lines and characterizations. I have believed that on some level for quite awhile too--including possibly making Max less desirable to possibly protect JB's life from crazed fans, and maybe separating Max & Liz because SA & JB did not have the magic off screen. I would like to see JK have the opportunity to work with a more mature cast sometime--it would be interesting to see what develops. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like Roswell is going to be a Bonanza or even a Seventh Heaven in terms of longevity. So I guess it would have to be with a different cast. I'm hoping for "Roswell, the Next Generation." Or how about, "The Importance of Liz to the Alien Mythology"? gnite. |
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Posted 03-25-2002 10:31 AM by The Real Momo
First, I have to say, I'm really sick of hearing about this "SA &JB" haven't got magic off screen. One, because it's apparently not true (looking at the behind the scenes photos taken during Four Aliens and a Baby and Graduation) should have put such gossip garbage to rest finally. Can it be any plainer? They get along just fine. End of story. But I do have to say that the Tess Mess is largely responsible for the situation that Roswell finds itself in. The switch in direction and the lack of presentation created a mound of problems for Roswell starting in S1 because it was not properly dealt with and it was introduced too early. Certainly, this is a writing problem. The Tess /Max storyline was never popular for several reasons, one being the lack of groundwork to predispose that Max would ever enter into a relationship with Tess. So what happened is that Max wound up slipping out of character as he was written and the whole storyline became unbelievable because the viewers would not "willingly suspend their disbelief". At that point, the writers should have course corrected and didn't. It became a force-feed and it continued to anger fans, especially Dreamers, and cost viewership in the end. It's interesting to note that in S2, Tess-favored stories (with outcomes that gave Tess the upper hand) dropped the ratings a half-point where as Liz-favored stories gained a half-point. Anyone who was paying attention to the ratings should have noted this. While potentially, the Tess/Max storyline could have been interesting, it failed miserably because Tess' character was poorly drawn in constrast to Liz which has been well drawn. The character of Tess has always been nebulous and while some may say it adds to her mystery, it actually created confusion -- do we like her? do we hate her?, etc. Max's actions would have been understood far better if Tess' character had been made clear. Ultimately, the story framework lies with Max and Liz, especially Liz. It story begins with Liz and her diary, with Liz being shot, with Liz's relationship with Max. The character of Liz effects the entire cast. And throughout the history of Roswell, Liz's motives for her actions are clearly understood. We understand and sympathize with her agonizing choices, even while we are screaming, "Don't do it!" JK has always said that the story would ultimately always come back to M&L. The problem is that didn't happen for viewers. In the eyes of viewers, the M&L relationship was continually being usurped by Max and Tess is S2 and Isabel and Jesse in S3. Where were Max and Liz "as promised?" It's not enough to have Max on the phone in LA and Liz in Roswell on the phone. Their relationship went through arrested development while all the other relationships clearly progressed. We have yet to see a "reasonable" explanation of the Tess Mess, nor have we seen Max and Liz really deal with the issue. It was a tactical mistake from the beginning and it should have been cut early on. The mandate viewers were looking for was plain and simple: Great, add the sci-fi but not at the expense of the Max and Liz relationship. Did anyone listen? No. When viewers cried less Tess, more Liz —could it be any plainer? Did anyone listen. No. And that was the mistake. To not listen. I still believe the story is salvagable and that there is plenty of story left to tell ... if we get there. I'm willing to make that happen. I hope, in spite of misgivings, so will everybody else. We are really just at the beginning of the story and I really, really want to see the full story. Don't you? [ 03-25-2002: Message edited by: The Real Momo ] [ 03-25-2002: Message edited by: The Real Momo ] [ 03-25-2002: Message edited by: The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 03-26-2002 09:18 AM by GraceKel
TheRealMomo---you remind me so much of myself at the beginning of season3--I was so hopeful that the show would turn itself around on a new network, we were lead to believe JK had more creative freedom, and I thought maybe we would return to the strong quality of season1--yes I could see them increasing the action somewhat, and I fully expected more scifi--I always thought that was a given anyway--that it would naturally increase afterall this was a scifi show and I never had any doubts about it that it was, I loved that it was a scifi show. Do I think this show can be SALVAGED---the saddest part of all---is it BEGS TO BE SALVAGED----the problem is that the HANDLERS are the ones I have lost confidence in, I believe they are fully out of touch with their audience-----the only time they truly pay attention to this audience is when they want them to campaign to keep the show going. |
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Posted 03-26-2002 03:09 PM by Alexis
Quote by GraceKel but that’s the problem right there isn't it---in order to be a good writer you have to be a FAN of what you are writing--and if its shared writing then you should be watching each others backs to make sure the T's are crossed and I's are dotted---and all CHADS are covered----SCIFI fans are sticklers for details. I thought that is what they wanted SCIFI fans?????????? And… And… This is right on, GraceKel. As a writer, you need to care about your characters and care about consistency! I don’t understand why they are not seeing the final product so that the arcs match/flow. I understand there is a lag, but you can at least read the scripts that are written while you are writing your first draft.
As Reggie or Rath might say: WORD Quote by Mezz Yup.
But, I tend to agree that the writers have not done their homework as much as they should have and that they have let very intriguing story lines fall by the wayside. Like GraceKel said, it is salvageable, but only if the handlers are willing to put in the effort to pull it out of the junk pile and put some elbow grease into it. Just like Michael did when referbishing Maria's Jetta bumper. |
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Posted 03-27-2002 04:38 PM by Vihmakass
...from lurking. Hi all Mythers! Makeing good show is like building house. They start well (S1) - basement is strong. 4 season? im now ready think about this yet...i know maybe when im ready - it's late... sry.bad gramm.,spell. [ 03-27-2002: Message edited by: Vihmakass ] |
Posted 03-27-2002 05:27 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Vihmakass! So good to "see" you again! That is a great metaphor! It expresses how I feel exactly. I love the "house" of Roswell because it is the place where the story of the love of Max & Liz began. But I am SOOO Sad that it has fallen into disrepair. About 20 years ago I lived across the street from a house that a man built for his family. There was a terrible economic depression in that area before he could finish it. They lived in the unfinished house for a few years, then sold it. People rented it, but had to bring their own furniture to keep dishes because the kitchen never had cabinets built (because the man/builder ran out of money). Sounds like Roswell, doesn't it? I haven't seen that house in many years, but it still had potential when I last saw it. |
Posted 03-28-2002 03:20 AM by mezz
quote: Oh my yes. If you listen closely you can hear the story's voice calling out to be continued. S4 should be the season of putting everything in its place and adding just a pinch of mystery and progression that our curiosity is tweaked. It can be done and as all the stuff said on this thread alone shows, it can be done quite neatly. Those involved have just got to seriously want to. |
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Posted 03-29-2002 04:11 AM by c. mccoy
Zero: I meant say this last time but forgot. Thank you for turning me onto 'Alias'. It's very good! I watched the 1st episode & thought it was kind of a knockoff of Buffy/Le Femme Nikita so I didn't watch anymore. I already had enough to watch too. But since I didn't like Smallville & dropped Dawson's Creek, Dark Angel & Charmed by Thanksgiving, I gave it a shot & loved it. The current storyline with this Rembaldy guy is facsinating - like Roswell used to be. |
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Posted 03-30-2002 06:16 PM by shapeshifter
What if the glowie guys in the morgue in So47 were the ones (not the military) dissecting Tess' pod to release whatever would bond her to the others so they could manipulate her into betraying the podsters? These 2 glowies would be Nasedo and another, who were protectors for the Dupes. Then Langely and the 4th glowie would have been the Ros4's protectors. Liz would be important because she's the one who prevented the evil scheme from transpiring. |
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Posted 04-02-2002 08:57 AM by GraceKel
Well c mccoy I wanted to let you know that I started reading one of your fan fics, it certainly got to the heart of the matter with the mythology, something we all would have loved to have seen on this show. You also asked the question what would any of us liked to have seen with this show, or what we would have done differently. First and foremost I would have maintained the two leads who started as leads would have remained the leads no matter what difficulties were going on for cast and production-----this would have protected the integrity of the storyline above all else---professionalism and maturity of course is required and convincing all that they are a part of something greater than themselves, whether in a lead or supporting role, bring your all to the overall project, personality clashes and cast ambitions aside. There really isn't much I would have changed about season1 Roswell, I thought it was very well done, each episode connected enough and the episodes themselves flowed pretty well. The only really glaring question I had was how did Michael get to the peppers cafe in UFO Convention eppy? Did he fly, did he hitch? LOL!! One thing I would have changed is the M and M relationship, I liked the comedic verbal banter and sexual tension between them far more BEFORE they hooked up then when they actually did, Michael's character was so rebellious, I think I would have preserved this for a far great amount of time, and although teasing with sexual tension and such I would have kept Michael and Maria as a non couple for at least another season. Since I also never saw Michael as Isabel's brother in the early episodes of Roswell---I would have reserved this far more interesting triangle I think---not in any serious way but maybe to provide some conflict and confusion. I think even Brendan himself thought he should have stayed a loner longer--I agree. I certainly would not have dropped the native american storyline, I thought both Riverdog and Eddie were fascinating and would have loved to have seen more of them and what they could add to the storyline. And what about TICTAC? Still a mystery there---would have liked it revealed to the audience ONLY but not to the roswell group that TICTAC was one of the parents--LOL---not sure which one I would have liked it to be but one of them---but have the group left in the dark about it--only the audience knows--fascinating!!! The mystery surrounding Valenti Sr--certainly this should have been tackled at greater lengths? I thought we might get there but sigh....As for J Valenti--if they weren't going to do anything more interesting with his character than they have they should have left him still not knowing but investigating the kids---I don't like Jims storyline at all this season, although I did enjoy his rendition of "If I had a Million Dollars." As for Isabels character in season 1 they started out with Isabel acting like a normal girl who hung out with the snobby crowd in high school and went on normal dates---I think they should have stuck with this--don't know why they switched this at all? Suddenly Isabel had no friends at all--why? I also enjoyed the closeness portrayed of Isabel to her earth mother---but they seemed to abandon that totally with the destiny revealed? Why? One of the few things I liked about Isabel in season1 was her attachment to her mother and suddenly that was totally tossed too. Again I think I already spoke of this--but boxing themselves into such a small storyline with destiny I feel was a mistake---but an even greater mistake were not leaving those 4 other pods a mystery??? New characters anyone??? They might have needed a few new fresh characters in the future. I certainly would have had a few SHOCKERS revealed, something that would be exciting and open up more storylines. Above all I would also like to know more about Liz's past history, grandmother Claudia of course and her parents. These are just to name a few. |
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Posted 04-02-2002 06:38 PM by The Real Momo
Should Roswell get a season 4, I think some of us will get our wish about the Indian mythology to Roswell. (Please note that I am using Indian deliberately since I am part Indian and the Indians I know prefer term "Indian" to Native American. "Indian" is being used out of deference and respect to the tribes). With Liz's help (again), we were being drawn back into the Indian mythology at the end of season 2. "Baby, It's You" specifically draws us back to the Destiny Book and the fact the the computer geek at Los Alamos comments that it looks like some kind of "Native American" alphabet. Based on what Katims has said about his "retooled pilot" of Roswell for season 4, the "Indian" aspects of the story may begin to come in focus which is all the more reason we need to fight for season 4. Personally, I don't think we are done with the cave map. The map is a treasure map (as I've outlined at blu5 and my own website: http://nav.to/momosroswell under "The Pod Chamber" ). I think we have all the locations but one and that I believe is connected to Liz. We know that Liz's family (on her father's side) has lived in Roswell for four generations, back to the time of the crash. Grandma Claudia, an archeologist, and author of "Lost Treasures" is definitely a key. She is drawn from the alleged real Roswell incident which describes a woman archeologist among the archeologist team that found the bodies. So there is certainly plenty of room to tie Grandma Claudia to the crash, to the artifacts and eventually to Liz. And if Liz carries any Indian blood which is probably a given since she's from an old New Mexico famly, then Liz can be connected to "The Star People". However, one piece of information we've also gleaned this year is that Liz's mom, Nancy, grew up in New Mexico and attended high school in Roswell. That we didn't know before. Her mother still remains pretty much a mystery. In any case, we can probably place Liz's mother back to Roswell circa the 1960s. So Liz possibly could have connections from either parent. The DeLucas, Valentis, and Evans, I've now ruled out for the time being, but that could change. LOL! The advantage to Liz having Indian connections certainly could come through the folklore and the Indian belief in "The Star People". And through prophecy, it could be revealed what the connection between Max and Liz is. |
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Posted 04-02-2002 09:47 PM by angelofmusic
Just wanted to come out of lurking to tell you all that I love this thread. As for my opinion on Roswell... I'm torn on a season 4. I see great possibilities for a series finale, but at the same time, what would I do without Roswell to obsess over next season? Anyway, thanks for making this thread one of my favorite. |
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Posted 04-03-2002 05:32 PM by mezz
I certainly would love to see a return to the Indian myth/history aspect. It gave the show a lot more depth and such wonderful characters. Also the music they used in S1 had the Indian feel to it which IMO added a lot that I really miss (music freak that i am) I have also wondered why they have completely abandoned the destiny book and the cave map. Perhaps it was because after the Tess fiasco they (the podsquad) thought the whole thing was bogus. I think this is a knee jerk reaction. It might have been manipulated by Tess and Ed but must still have value. When Michael was sick in TB he said the cave print was a map. he worked that out before Tess came along. Before any shapeshifter was shown to return. He worked it out by being in another section of his brain while close to death. This fact makes the information highly questionable or highly reliable. The fact that it was proven correct in several instances shows that the painting being a map where the symbols mean certain things in specific places is correct. The book was part of the map. Therefore the book and the map still must have some sort of relevance. Even if they need to find another way of interpreting the book. Finding out about the imprints of the map is such an obvious mine of continual story lines I am at a loss to know why it has been dropped. If the story was dropped because of the Tess thing then a situation needs to happen where the R4 are forced to reconsider their stance about it all being a bad plot. The mother said that they would know the enemy by the evil within. I still like the theory we talked about at the beginning of S3 where the alien/human conflict within the hybrids was part of the battle. Tess was part of the challenge. It is possible the potential treachery was planted by the people on Antar as part of the test to make the character of all involved stronger and more worthy material for saving the home planets. It is not a complete unknown for the temptations to be a deliberate part of the journey. (and as an aside, all the characters have their dangerous side. Tess's is obvious, Iz's in Valondra is obvious and Michael's is his inner violence and mistrust. Max's is his selfishness, controlling and ultimate lack of belief in people that we saw in S2 and has still been battlin in S3. It makes sence that the most important character would have the most insidious inner character weakness that is the hardest to walk away from. Iz can walk away from her past. Michael can change easily as we have seen and Tess could have beaten hers with an easy decision. Max's weakness is the hardest to turn his back on.It also carries with it the potential to make him the most noble of all in his conquering of it.) My point (confusingly stated I know) is that the map and book still must have relevence. The book was found at the library where it was placed on the map and so must have a real and genuine part to play in their lives. What do the rest of the symbols mean and why haven't they even questioned one of them. In S2 1 we found out the meaning for 3 of them. For 2 seasons now we have discovered nothing. Strikes me as strange. And it would seem to me impossible to discover the meanings of the map and book without delving into more of the Indian people's lives and experiences. Edited to clarify - I meant Max as the most important of the pods not discounting Liz. She makes a different journey. [ 04-03-2002: Message edited by: mezz ] |
Posted 04-03-2002 06:05 PM by shapeshifter
quote:I like this line of thought. It seems to reflect the current world situation and the different weaknesses of the various nations and people groups. What would Liz's greatest weakness be? I am guessing Alex's led to his doom. |
Posted 04-04-2002 01:58 PM by Reggie
quote: Liz's greatest weakness is her love for Max. It caused her to do as he asked, in TEOTW; which Caused Problems, I'm sure we'll all agree. She also did not resist him in early S3, and so she became his "doormat". Other than that, she hasn't caused much danger to herself or others, so it's hard to say what other vulnerabilities she might have. I think Alex just was at the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong skills: Tess (or her controller) needed a skilled computer operator, and: there was Alex. I also like Mezz's idea of the Podsters weakneses. I used that in my fanfics. I figured that Nikolas was trying to get to the podsters using his knowlage of their vulnerabilities: Villandra was vain, and swayed by flattery, so CW tried that on Isabel. Max likes to use his authority, but doesn't like dealing with the necessary forethought or consequences. Notice the terms of the deal Nikolas offered Max in MitC. Tess was always Max's yes-man and order-follower, what one might (years ago) call a "biddable girl". I believe that Nikolas used this to MW her: Mr. Harding made a Deal, which she must follow. From here, I took off with Departure, Part 2, followed by Windup. Windup was to be the beginning of a baseball-named arc, culminating on an attack on Michael. The next logical attack would come on Michael, who is notoriously bull-headed; a loose cannon. He thinks he's smarter than the others, although he doesn't say so and may not realize it himself. So get close to him, get on his good side, and convince him to talk privately with some "Michael-worshiping Skins"... who would be Nikolas's soldiers, and kidnap/kill him. Or at least try; but Michael would see the ambush and organize a counterattack. (So you'd get Windup, followed by The Pitch, Foul Ball, and Strike Four.) Alas, we're much more perceptive than the folks producing this show. [ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 04-04-2002 10:59 PM by Nemo
Reggie, good to see you here again. (I hope you got to sing for Easter.) |
Posted 04-05-2002 01:25 PM by Reggie
quote: You too! (Yes, I did. We're down to one Tenor; me. ) How are you doing, with the news of Roswell's probable demise? |
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Posted 04-05-2002 03:09 PM by Alexis
Hi all—just wanted to share a link to RATDG. They have compiled a list of characters that have been on Roswell. The read is an interesting one—quite entertaining! http://disc.server.com/discussion.cgi?id=131250&article=2841 |
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Posted 04-05-2002 05:11 PM by shapeshifter
Alexis, I'm dragging it over here ***thanks to Jade Jaguar!*** so it will wind up in the Archives. quote: |
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Posted 04-05-2002 08:11 PM by GrhmLz
***Hello everyone! Wow, it has been awhile since I have posted in here. I was so happy with Ch-ch-changes! Finally, a story-line arc that got back to Liz. I wish the writers would have gotten to these ideas sooner than they would of had more time to expand on these ideas. Well, what can i say. Season 3 has been a major disappointment for me. Why? because after season 2 everything just went downhill. But I was hanging on with some hope that the writers had a plan that they intended to get to. Now I may be one of the only people that feels this way but I don't think season 3 was about Max/Liz at all. Although i heard that it was UPN that demanded more of Max/Liz, we got no story that centered around only Max/Liz. Almost everytime Max was shown with Liz it was all about Max finding his son. His son with Tess. Therefore, the plot once again is shifted back to Tess, instead of Liz, and she didn't even have to be on the show. This show never attempted to redeem its mistakes regarding Tess and at the same time it just could not let go of the Tess concept during season 3. This left no Liz story at all. It was Max/Liz about Tess.*** -After everything that i have watched, it is my belief that JK intended to move away from Max/Liz after season one. That is why they introduced the DESTINY storyline at the end of season 1. Then when season 2 came they tried to force the audience to accept the move away from Max/Liz and it failed. I read somewhere that poor Emilie de Ravin came to the show with the "mistaken" impression that she was there to replace the lead role. Where would she get an idea like that? The character of Tess was made in JK's image and I think he sincerely believed that he could top the Max/Liz relationship. I think the orginial intentions were to get the Tess character introduced and accepted and then to "ditch" the Liz character in the long run. But when that didn't appear as if it would work because of the reaction of the fans, they were forced into keeping the Liz character around. Like some else said, u can't write about something if your heart isn't there. How else would u explain season 2 and 3? Liz took a backseat in season 3 while Isabel was pushed to center stage. And even when Liz got screen time with Max it was about Max getting to his son. I don't think JK wants to write about Liz I think he is being forced into it. Which would explain why maybe no one cares. Until now, I always thought that EOTHW and HOM (both written by JK) was leading to something important about Liz in the end. Now I acknowledge that EOTHW was just the catalyst being set up for a Max/Tess pairing. ------------------------------------------------------- |
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Posted 04-05-2002 10:04 PM by Vihmakass
...Jk is big disapointment to me.(spelling?) bc of this im very...doubtful about 4 season. He just not love Max/Liz. And word "Dreamer " - for him it has basicaly different meaning than to us - i think he wants say he likes dream . If we remove from season 3 all Isabore eps. cut to point when they start make sence and mixing with lot of M/L scenes - all is ok but after that the season3 has only some 5-6 eps. What is my dream (with small d) is - have some software and skills make this come true. For season2 little cuting dont make bad to - but only litte and from end. And in summary - S2+S3= one good season2.2!! Ok. silly dreams. This newer gonna hapen. Season 4....if they get it - ok! If not - ok! back reading... [ 04-05-2002: Message edited by: Vihmakass ] |
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Posted 04-06-2002 12:03 AM by GraceKel
Hey GrhmLiz nice to see you posting on this thread again. I must say I agree with many of your thoughts---there is no doubt in my mind that Shiri had problems behind the scenes in season1--Shannon Doherty anyone???? The thing about Shannon Doherty is to this day people say 90210 the Brenda years were BEST and Charmed is also HURTING without her--LOL!!!! I work with difficult people everyday of my life--so what--you deal with it--but an added problem was too many STAR WANNABE's to boot who couldn't accept supporting positions either------Did anyone read the recent Jason Katims interview on the crashdown where he says that there are MANY WHO COULD BE LEADS on their own shows--------well to my mind this is the problem Mr Katims--you were too accomodating to this thinking--the fact is they were not LEADS on this one originally and trying to change this was a dismal failure all around because I feel they have been rewriting Roswell history ever since and this only feeds into the chad machine and makes the whole show nonsensical. But they didn't care about us--it was that NEW AUDIENCE they were after--LOL--you know the one that never showed, or who were not impressed by the new and improved-LOL? I wish they could see what we see, how much Shiri brought to the Liz role, how her character was so identifiable, the one many related to the most. And we were quite happy with her as lead--the story still made sense then. |
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Posted 04-06-2002 07:52 AM by shapeshifter
GhrmLzz & GraceKel, ITA that not only are actors human beings that will inevitably bring their own angst into the mix of show, but teenage actors are going to be dealing with issues of identity development etc. I suspect that JK tried to make the best of the natural attractions and lack thereof between actors of the opposite sex, and that in his effort to appease them, he ulitmately pleased no one. Okay, the bad news is that Wanda is saying the actors have been released from their contracts. OTH, R*A*M*S posters question why, if this is true, Majandra is not shouting it from the rooftops? Maybe she's signed something with a clause that prevents her? The GOOOD NEWS is: the promo for WDAMYK is up at Mr Video's site. [ 04-06-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 04-06-2002 08:09 AM by Vihmakass
ok. it's me, again Liz's importanse... this is so clear thing. But the second part - to Alien Mythology...this is ...this has to be...AM is... umf. Who knows what is AM? Do they have some? i can remember there was some little hint's...this kind thing is existing...or... Hoe about this point? Liz's importance to the AM is...thanks to her they have this. Whithout her they have becoming creepy freaks living hush-hush and become killed by skins or Tess or Khivar or FBI or by himself in some arquing fest before they even become know who they really are. Liz give them life,will...and freedom... How weird that writers dont see this plot...ok i can understand that JK cant see...he just loses earth from feets(great success!) and flaing(?) around in hes own dreams ...but how it hapens that writers who write the scenes dont see? [ 04-06-2002: Message edited by: Vihmakass ] |
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Posted 04-06-2002 11:29 AM by GrhmLz
-GraceKel, ITA about the actors/actresses. I understand that people follow their own self-interests but sometimes people need to know when to swallow their pride. Sometimes in an attempt to be all u loose all. In Roswell's case, the show worked very well with Shiri (Liz) as the leading actress and Jason (Max) as the leading actor. Everyone else had supporting roles on the show. I don't get it. The others must have been under the impression that because they weren't the leading roles that they meant nothing. But if they swallowed their pride for a minute like I suggested they would realize that your leading roles are only as good as your supporting cast members. It can almost be compared to a basketball team. You have your five players out on the court but not every team member is going to be the leading scorer. But that doesn't mean the rest of the team isn't important because without them their would be no team. They win together and they loose together. Well, the same can be said with Roswell. If certain members of the cast want to get into these heated debates about who leads on screen, everyone is just going to loose out because in the end the show will be gone. And GraceKel, great comparison with the Shannen Doherty issue. I remember that like it happened yesterday. If fact, I watched 90210 when she was on but when she left I didn't. And I use to watch Charmed and I don't anymore because she is gone now too. Some people just have that special charisma to carry a leading role that others do not possess. It doesn't mean that the others aren't good actors or actresses. -Shapeshifter, I think that you are absolutely right about Jason Katims trying to please everyone but in the end failed at it. In fact, I'm willing to bet that is the same game of chance he played with the Max/Liz/Tess triangle and failed. After realizing that getting rid of the Liz character would not work, he tried to appeal to Liz/Dreamer fans and Tess/rebel fans at the same time. In the season 2 finale, he threw Liz back with Max in attempt to keep Liz/dreamer fans around but kept a sex/baby connection between Max and Tess to appeal to the Tess/rebel fans. Let me tell u that tactic failed big time. In the end it left both fans groups angrier than u can imagine and they stopped watching. I don't know how many times people on both sides have stated they wish the stupid show would have gone completely one way or the other. -And with that I need to ask, does anyone really want to see a season 4 knowing what we know now? I mean don't get me wrong I started with Roswell, I loved it, and I'll miss what could have been. But that is just it..."I'll miss what could have been." If UPN has dropped it (which it looks like it has), I am concerned about Sci-fi picking it up. The reason is that I heard somewhere that cable stations do not depend on the ratings as heavily as networks like ABC, NBC, or CBS etc...! If that is true, what is to stop the writers of Roswell from using the fans once again to gain access to a season 4 on sci-fi only to gain the ability to write whatever they want without much consequence as to what the fans are looking for. As far as a season 4, I wouldn't believe any spoilers that discussed anything good about the Liz character. I don't believe these writers anymore. ------------------------------------------------------- [ 04-06-2002: Message edited by: GrhmLz ] |
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Posted 04-06-2002 04:20 PM by Nemo
I think it's all in good fun when we look for clues and guess where the story might be going, or give our opinions on what was good or bad about the show, but when we try to guess how it got that way I think we are on shakier ground. There's probably a lot we don't know, and those are real people we're speculating about. I think in several cases the cast didn't get their druthers either. From some of their message boards it seems clear, for example, that Majandra was not eager to do more singing on the show, and Bill Sadler was hoping the sheriff would get his job back. As professionals, they do what they can with the material they get.... [ 04-06-2002: Message edited by: Nemo ] |
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Posted 04-06-2002 05:01 PM by Reggie
Well, I'm as spoiled as can be. "Hi, I'm Reggie, and I'm a BRAT." So I know what happens, and when. I can tell you the very line when... well, I shouldn't. Vihmakass: Yes, exactly. JK owes that to us. We did the work saving the show, twice. He should make a show good enough to stand by itself. Or he should quit, and let someone else make the show. Even after the atrocity which ends S3, there are possible storylines which would save the show. It's a pity that there's almost no chance of it happening. GrhmLz: Well, the deal with Sci-Fi is a typical deal made for a cancelled show, not one still being made. While it may (or may not) be true that Sci-Fi could order more episodes, they're paying $0.125 million an episode, for shows that cost a reported $1 million each to make. They are very sensitive to costs and ratings, so new episodes would have to be "worth it" somehow. And somehow, I doubt it. But I could be wrong; Sci-Fi has ambitious plans for other shows, and the Roswell yarn could be spun into gold in the right hands. If I could whisper in Sci-Fi's ear, I'd say: "We'd watch a fourth season of Roswell, IF Jason Katims had NOTHING to do with it. But we've seen the first three seasons already, and liked them less as JK made more of them." UPN is reportedly "likely" to make an announcement Monday. UPN is also reportedly going to base its renewal decision on the next two, not four, episodes' ratings. These eps are not reported to be M/L heavy. Hang on tight, folks, it's going to get bumpy for a while. |
Posted 04-06-2002 08:32 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Ah, Nemo! The voice of reason returns! You have shown yourself worthy of your patient and perceptive wife. BTW, I have tidied up the Theories Site, and moved the now-lengthy disclaimers and credits to their own page. Reggie, I can't argue with anything you say, so I will try to focus on cherishing memories of our fun times of speculating and hope that there will be another Roswell in the not-too-distant future. [ 04-06-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
Posted 04-06-2002 09:19 PM by GrhmLz
quote: -These are some good points, Reggie. Too bad Roswell's genius wasn't placed in the writing hands of fresher and more creative blood.
quote: -Really? Is that this upcoming Monday on the 8th of April? I read that Fox already tore down and sold everything off of the set where Roswell is produced. I also read that the cast members have been released out of their contracts. Are u sure there is still a chance that UPN will consider keeping Roswell for a season 4? |
Posted 04-06-2002 09:57 PM by Reggie
quote: I see virtually no chance for a S4 on UPN; but then, they don't have anything better to put on. True, the sets have been taken down; but they usually are. Sound stages are expensive, too expensive to use for storage space; and so sets are usually put away when a production closes for the season. Ditto props & stuff. That way the stage can be used for some other project. They won't destroy anything, until they are sure that no one will need it; and both UPN and Sci-Fi might. Ergo, everything valuable should be safe. (There was a rumor that they were going to change studios anyway, so everything would have been packed anyway. Maybe they knew something?) If the actors had been released (by FOX), there'd be an official announcement; if only by the actors themselves. "Wanda" isn't that reliable; wait for the actors' boards' moderators to find out, probably from the actors themselves. (BF or WS are most likely.) The only "real" hope for Roswell is on Sci-Fi. If it's good news, it'll be very good; if not, not. We'll just have to wait... and maybe e-mail Sci-Fi? [ 04-06-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 04-06-2002 10:58 PM by GrhmLz
***Reggie, I see! Thanks for the explanation, it does make sense!*** |
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Posted 04-06-2002 11:26 PM by GraceKel
Nemo--its true I am sure there are things we don't really know and there are even things I wish I didn't know-LOL believe me I guess I am just saying that when all is said and done if this particular explanation is at some time the one that is revealed I am letting them know in advance that IT ISN'T WASHING WITH ME. Because WHAT THE FANS WANT should also be an important factor. |
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Posted 04-07-2002 03:16 PM by GrhmLz
***Hi everyone. I'm bored and I really need to discuss something so bare with me here. I am sure that this subject has been addressed before but since I haven't been around here in awhile I was just curious as to what your views/ideas were. Try to analyze it in such a away that is nuetral, without the knowledge of poor writing up to date, or the likely possiblity that the show will not be returning to address these possibilites. I was just curious as to how u would have concluded what Liz's importance to the Alien Mythology was. *Here goes mine: Not to long ago I was discussing the EOTHW on another thread. Does anybody here still think that Liz was at all alien in origin? Well, I got to thinking about everything that FMax had said to Liz. How the closer they got, the worse things got with Tess? He explained that Tess was important to their survival and with her gone they were weaker as a group. He also told Liz that he could not tell her everything, only what she needed to know. While it may be very well true to say that they temporarily needed Tess' assistance in destroying the "skins", I always felt there was more. We all know that in Departure it was revealed that she was part of the deal Nascedo made with Kivar. She intended to bring Max, Michael, and Isabel home to their deaths. Here is my problem! If the truth was that Tess was Max's true destiny from the start, if max truely loved her, and if she was so essential to the groups' survival why in the world did she feel like she had to betray them? The point i am trying to make is that Tess has to be angry about something. That deal went into effect long before Tess was introduced to the Pod Squad so Tess knew what she was suppose to do before she arrived in Roswell. It can't just be a matter of "it's because max and liz are together right now, so i'll have them killed" kind of thinking once she arrived in Roswell. I think something had to happen on Antar in their past lives. What if that something was Liz? -Here's my theory. Tess remembers her past life on Antar with the help of Nascedo. What if Tess/Ava was Max/Zan's "arranged bride" on Antar? That could have meant that Zan never loved Ava and Ava knew it. What if Zan had a true love and what if that true love was Liz? Zan could have gone against the politically correct thing and married his "true love" instead of his "arranged bride". This would somehow make Liz alien in origin and definitely have given a reason for Tess/Ava to be vengeful. Ava could have plotted with Kivar in the past life to bring down the "Royal 4" thus giving her life in the process. Then when the alien race went to reincarnate their "royal 4" and send them to earth, they sent Ava/Tess the "arranged bride" instead of Liz (whoever she may have been) the "wife." The alien race may have done this in an attempt to change destiny back and to restore things back to balance by being politically correct. That would explain max, michael, isabel, and tess all being present in the DESTINY BOOK because the book is the politically correct version. However, after they were sent to earth, what if Kivar and his followers uncovered the technology used to send the "royal 4" to earth. What if the skins came down to earth with Liz's essence/dna and reincarnated her here? There intention would have been to use her as bait to draw out Max and the others. That could be used to clear up the Shelia Hubble CHAD? She was pregnant with the 3-month old fetus of a girl! And since Nascedo made the deal in the 1960s with Kivar, it could have been his job to recover that fetus for the skins and he chose Shelia Hubble for obvious reasons. I always believed that Nascedo was never the shapeshifter that escaped from the govt. I think it was the other one. What if when it escaped it knew about the deal Nascedo was a part of and ran away after Liz was engineered? It hid on the Indian Reservation for awhile, and until it had to leave because it was being tracked down, he could have entrusted the alien artifacts and a "liz pod" to Artherton and Riverdog! At least until Liz was somehow adopted out to the Parkers in someway, shape, or form! Since, Liz was back in the picture and Nascedo would have made that clear to Tess, maybe that is why Tess didn't have the problems she did in betraying the group because she knew that Max would never love her the way she wanted! Hey, thus, Tess is gone but Liz's powers that are evolving from Ch-ch-changes would complete the Royal 4. Hey, there are a number of reasons Liz's powers could be developing late....down to the skins could have screwd up the process of recreating her. -Just some ideas for thought. Thanks for listening, don't mean to rant or rave on [ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: GrhmLz ] |
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Posted 04-07-2002 06:14 PM by mezz
Ok so Liz is on Antar and in love with Max. Perhaps she is his secret love that is not officially known about but that Tess/Ava found out about. Perhaps, like in Romeo and Juliet Zan and Liz got married in secret but Zan still somehow got married to Ava publicly. Or perhaps Zan met Liz after his marriage to Ava and Ava was the forgotten wife which made her mad. I agree, there does need to be more to the Tess betrayal, unless of course Ed didn't betray the 4 just Nicholas persuaded Tess he did. As to Liz being alien. If she is she is a very different sort because River Dog says to her to make sure Max earns your trust because she was 'not one of them'. |
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Posted 04-07-2002 08:46 PM by Reggie
Plus the whole point is "an alien boy loves a HUMAN girl". Well, was the point. Now, I don't think there is any point except "alien"ating the human audience. No, IF Liz had an "Importance" it would be as a human; of special liniage perhaps. An "outsider" who is saved by, and then saves, a Special King. (Like Excalibur was a special sword, for a Special King.) But, as our dear Qfanny keeps telling us: Liz is not an [ 04-07-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 04-07-2002 09:25 PM by shapeshifter
mezz & GrhmLz, both of your ideas are a lot like what WR has put in his fanfic, The Importance of Being Elizabeth.
Once again I have to remark on how interesting it is that so many people will independently come up with the same ideas for the mythology and science fiction of the Roswell (or any other) story. I am thinking too of the similarity of creation stories the world over. Even many atheists believe there was a great flood based on these similarities. Then there is the whole archetype concept, which we have explored just a little (not being experts), which, if I understand it correctly, explains this phenomena of simultaneous-but-independently conceived ideas on the basis of some elemental template. |
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Posted 04-08-2002 12:26 PM by jero
Wearing my 'other hat' today... I want Season 4!!! Don't forget that you can send a letter, an actual paper and envelope SNAIL MAIL letter, to UPN, CBS, or whoever at no cost to you and without leaving your computer at this website... http://savethatshow.com/Save_That_Show__Something_To_Say.shtml. Later, |
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Posted 04-08-2002 04:26 PM by Zara
Well, here's my grumpy opinion: I don't want a 4th season. Heck, I don't even want them to finish this season! For most of this season when an epi finished I thought, "Okay, STOP while you haven't made a total mess." It's pitiful, I know, but I dread new episodes. On a more positive note, have you noticed Gomez has a new recording out? It would be wonderful to hear some more Gomez used in a remaining episode... (Yes, I do still watch the new episodes, though through one eye glancing sideways and with my remote poised... ) [ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: Zara ] |
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Posted 04-08-2002 05:26 PM by RoswellQueen
Who else here thinks WE should be writing the eps?!!?!?!?! Hehe--we make the connections and they are so eerie and interesting! We need to like show these all to JK and TPTB and give them a clue! I say we take over and write Roswell the way it was meant to be! ~*Stacey*~ |
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Posted 04-09-2002 01:59 AM by elenac
If S4 won’t be confirmed, what will happen to this board? This is the part I’m interested in since, as it’s often been said, the fans are the best part of this show and I enjoy so much the plotlines and mystery they come up with.
quote: ITA, I had this feeling myself and posted something about it here, around mid S2. But it’s always been my feeling that while the writers went on with destiny, Tex and the baby storyline, the viewers were sitting crossed arms waiting for them to go back to the M/L storyline. Or maybe it was only me … but that was a long time ago. Reggie - Atrocity is the right word. And these writers are writing for a mostly female audience!?! Bah! [ 04-09-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
Posted 04-09-2002 11:03 AM by Vihmakass
quote: ------------------ If...King is dead - long live to King ! (spell?) 1.In the world is many places where TV shows S1 or S2...or reruns. 2.And if TV-show ends...we here can do real AM - to the end of the world... 3.We can work that somebody worthy pic's up makeing show next eps.(next story), sombody compleatly different person. Why? bc there is SO many story lines, SO many possibilities yet...only - this story needs other point of view to survive. ----------- (my english is so bad, im still amazed you even read what i post) Big, warm hug to all! [ 04-09-2002: Message edited by: Vihmakass ] |
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Posted 04-09-2002 12:57 PM by Zara
Vihmakass, I think I get your drift. The Story is so much bigger than the story that's been told in the tv show we've been watching. That's what made Roswell intriguing in the first place: the whole idea that there's more to the story than what's being presented. Mythology, the hero's journey, symbolism, science... There are some fine writers who are creating fiction that remains true to what we found compelling about Roswell. Perhaps we should have a competition to select ff stories that would make our own season 4. It might be fun - once the first episode is chosen, all submittals for the second episode would have to accept whatever the author of e1 had done and move on from there. It might be a fun exercise in teamwork... |
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Posted 04-09-2002 01:00 PM by Zara
sorry, duplicate post... [ 04-09-2002: Message edited by: Zara ] |
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Posted 04-09-2002 01:00 PM by Zara
For instance, If I were to write the final episode of Roswell I would have the last scene be a reshooting of the very first scene -- ding, ding, the crashdown door opens, Maria and Liz waiting on the tables, the main characters all in place, goons in the booth, and the loop begins again... Things would be the same, but different at the same time. They would have another chance to get it right. |
Posted 04-09-2002 04:37 PM by GrhmLz
quote: -Awesome idea Zara. Too bad the writers may never get a second chance to get it right! |
Posted 04-09-2002 06:40 PM by Reggie
quote: Well, since JK owns part of the show, we might have to buy it from him. Several million dollars... Or not; it depends on the exact terms of the Sci-Fi deal. As for us writing the eps: do I need to plug (yet again) my own eps which begin MY Season Three? Departure, Pt. 2 [ 04-09-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 04-11-2002 07:02 AM by Reggie
Not just a bump, but a minor warning... Some of the Spoiled Dreamers have been saying that they really pitied any unspoiled dreamer, going into the 3.17 - watching party (Covina?). I agree. Won't say why... but I agree. So if anyone's going, brace yourselves. Oh, and be nice, please. You'll know, when it happens. |
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Posted 04-12-2002 12:44 AM by Vihmakass
...is this official now? Did it really happend? Im keeping my - 'im not care anymore' but it hurts, it still hurts... -------------------------------------------- When the outside temperature rises And the meaning is oh so clear One thougsand and one yellow daffodils Begin to dance in front of you - or dear Are then trying to tell you something? You're missing the one final skrew You're simple in the pink my dear To be honest you haven't got a clue I'm going slightly mad I'm going slightly mad It finally happened - happened It finally happened - ooh oh It finally happened - I'm slightly mad Oh dear! ... ------------------------------------------- (Queen/ i'm going slightly mad ) [ 04-12-2002: Message edited by: Vihmakass ] |
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Posted 04-12-2002 08:31 PM by shapeshifter
Vihmakass, You know ITA. But I hope there might be a new Roswell someday. |
Posted 04-13-2002 02:00 PM by Reggie
quote: Suuure. Why not? Edited to add: They brought back Dark Shadows as well! It died after one season... but then, some of the characters were already dead. [ 04-13-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 04-14-2002 05:06 PM by Zero
Hi All! Hope everyone is doing well, and adjusting to the sad news of cancellation. Haven't been around much due to Real Life stuff, and spoilers depressing me - but I'm going to enjoy what we get in the final episodes as much as I can, because I do believe there will be some wonderful parts to it all! I will truly miss the wonderful people of this thread, and the fantastic observations, creative ideas and thorough research you all have done over the last couple of years!!! This will always be an experience that I will look fondly back on! I look forward to the last episodes and how we all react to them! Should be an interesting ride! And just maybe we will at least get a Roswell made-for-tv movie in the future! You never know!! Zero [ 04-14-2002: Message edited by: Zero ] |
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Posted 04-16-2002 04:50 PM by Zero
Almost lost this onto page 3. Can't do that. Zero |
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Posted 04-17-2002 06:55 AM by Alexis
Did anyone know that a new Roswell book came out? I am sure you all did since you are most likely online more often than I. I found a blunder! Ha ha ha! I just got about 4 books in the mail from Amazon.com, one being the “Little Green Men” Roswell book. But I’m not bitter. Anyhoo, if you look at the back blurb on “Little Green Men” they call the aliens “Scandinavians” instead of “Czechoslovakians” (okay I know I didn’t spell that correctly. Not true, I used spell check and now it’s right). Only Alex could be considered anything close to Scandinavian, so I had a good laugh. I wonder what other blunders are in the actual book. I haven’t even cracked it open. The On-Topicness of this whole book subject is, of course, that Liz saves the day figuring out why people are turning green! |
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Posted 04-17-2002 03:22 PM by shapeshifter
Alexis, Haven't got LGM yet as I'm still waiting to see if any of my daughters might get it for me for Mother's Day (not likely). In the mean time, did y'all see this this on Crashdown? quote:"Skeletons in the Closet" could potentially refer to Grandma Claudia or Pete Parker. |
Posted 04-17-2002 08:32 PM by Reggie
quote: Well, if you do, be aware: It's Liz-light, and Tess-heavy. The BRATs (Spoiled Dreamers) did NOT care for it, for more reasons than that. Your Milage May Vary. |
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Posted 04-18-2002 06:29 AM by Alexis
Thanks for that link, Shapeshifter I actually finished “Little Green Men” last night and I found a lot of grammatical mistakes, and a few character inconsistencies (well, more like people’s insecurites being over-dramatized). I like “No Good Deed” much better, but LGM was entertaining. I can see why the BRATS didn’t like it. It alludes to Max beginning to have feelings for Tess. Liz does save the day, but she’s afraid of getting caught in the hospital, which seems unlikely, at least the way the writers over-dramatized it. Tess hardly says or does anything, but her character seemed right on for that very reason. |
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Posted 04-18-2002 09:00 PM by shapeshifter
Berengaria on blu5 posted what Podwatcher said on FF which is the sky is falling (jk) but seriously: THE FIVE PLANETS ARE ALLIGNING FOR THE ROSWELL FINALE!!! I checked pictures, and it's not a "V" shape, but it's definitely Cosmic. |
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Posted 04-18-2002 10:09 PM by Nemo
shapeshifter, thanks for the pictures. I notice they're from the "Roswell Observatory." |
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Posted 04-19-2002 12:01 AM by mezz
If you are interested in having S4 of Roswell check out the following link (hopefully it works) Roswell S4 more possible than previously thought look at pages 1 and 2 particularly. |
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Posted 04-19-2002 04:43 AM by Behr4Danielle2
Hey guys! I just saw a new promo for Roswell...and they showed the pic of Shelia Hubble quickly. I wonder what that means? |
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Posted 04-19-2002 09:13 PM by shapeshifter
Behr4Danielle, Where'd you see that promo? Is it online? I didn't see Sheila Hubble in the one that was out a couple of weeks ago. mezz, I would love a Season 4, but doubt it. ::: sigh ::: Currently I get about 50 Cable Channels, but Sci Fi is not one of them. [ 04-20-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 04-19-2002 10:21 PM by APPLE DELICIOUS
It's has been a long question, Why? An alien boy, fell in love with a human girl. Roswell. Style |
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Posted 04-20-2002 11:41 AM by healersbabe
[i]::runs in to give Vih a huge huge hug!!:: To all the Mythers |
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Posted 04-20-2002 06:23 PM by Qfanny
I really don't have anything to add to the conversation. I just wanted to come in and say Hi! I am not sorry that the show was canceled, but I really enjoyed the ride. |
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Posted 04-20-2002 06:46 PM by Nemo
Hi, Qfanny. It's good to hear from you again. |
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Posted 04-21-2002 04:54 PM by shapeshifter
Yes, Qfanny, it is good to "see" you again. It occurred to me that if Shiri & Nick wanted to continue the show, they could have everyone else blast off (in one form or another) and have the 2 changlings continue running from mad scientists who want to test them, cope with being 'different,' search for the healed kids, and occasionally chat with Brody (never mind the Chadliness of Brody. ) and Kal. |
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Posted 04-23-2002 08:44 PM by shapeshifter
Re WKAMYK: Liz's role may be small, but crucial: she comes up with the 'scientific' theory that inspires Max to do what he has to do to save the world. Will Liz's "powers" come back now that Max's are waxing stronger again? Loved it when John "Dad" Doe told Phil to trust Max. |
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Posted 04-24-2002 04:52 PM by Zero
Qfanny, Reggie, Alexis, Shapeshifter and All - HI! I enjoyed last night, but would have liked to see more of Liz and her new found (and hopefully, controlled) All I can say is that the closer the Aliens get to their original alien personality, the less I like them. Mikey G was just the lasted to become a "Royal Jerk" - as the case may be. Good thing the rebel skins didn't get their way and place him into power originally. Wonder if there will be residual effects on Mikey G?? Thank goodness for the "humanization" of the pod squad! Liked the 'taking back the seal.' Also - think that Mr. Evans going to bat for Mr. Parker to get money back from the private school may be the catalyst that leads to the truth coming out to the parents!? i doubt it will take much to find out Liz was lying, and that a lot of strange things went on back there while she was there. Looks to be interesting if the previews are any indication! Well - OT - I have a new job, which doesn't allow playing on the net during the day - so I will visit when I can, but for those like me who may only come by occasionally, it has been a Blast hanging out with you and disecting Roswell together! You have all been the best! Zero |
Posted 04-24-2002 07:11 PM by Reggie
quote: It was one of the photos that Agent Burns showed Jesse, to convince him that the aliens are dangerous. Zero! Good luck on your new job. Dial us up from home! Qfanny! Welcome back! |
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Posted 04-25-2002 05:51 AM by Alexis
Congrats to you, Zero, on your new job! Roswell was pre-empted where I am for a Hockey game, so I’ll wait until Monday (after I see it) to comment. Until then, take care! |
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Posted 04-25-2002 05:24 PM by Zero
Reggie & Alexis - Thanks!! I'll look forward to what you think Alexis! I hate preempting of shows - fortunately, that doesn't happen much what I live. Zero |
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Posted 04-25-2002 07:04 PM by Vihmakass
hi ! And special HI with big to healersbabe! What you Mythers think about glowy-burn marks in WDAMYK and SHealing? Similar or not? And if yes, what you think what this was in SH what Max removed from Liz? Was this bride-tattoo? If Max not removed it from her - does she was then tracked by enemies and killed? once more? Does this tattoo is reason why she becomes killed in pilot? Does birth and growing up (first 3-4 years kids are very...tender(?) ) girl with tattoo is signal for podsters come out from their pods? and begun their journey? ...eh, so many spec.'s in my head....like in old good days... ------- sry.gram.,spell. [ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: Vihmakass ] |
Posted 04-26-2002 07:52 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Vihmakass, here is a script from the good old days , typed by Fraz & October on another thread. It was supposed to air instead of Leaving Normal, but never did. The really interesting thing is in the beginning: quote:It would have done a lot to explain the Max-Liz connection. [ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 04-27-2002 03:43 PM by elenac
Watching this ep I was looking for loose end to be tight up, as some posters on the GD thread were saying, but was left unsatisfied. Liz telling Max in the CD, that things couldn't go back as they were before, didn't make much sense to me. With all that happened between them in the previous ep, where they saved each other's life, I was expecting their relationship to get stronger and not to have a cautious Liz. That line fitted better in Busted. Then the major plotline where Michael is re-programmed by Max's death and becomes king himself, in some ways vanished what happened both in MTD and MitC. If the royal seal was necessary to pass the test and attend as king the 5 worlds leaders meeting, then Rath would've passed it and had the right to be there. I think I'm even more confused now. |
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Posted 04-27-2002 09:03 PM by GraceKel
Hello Fellow Liz Mythers---I just finished watching WDAMYK---I had to wait til today because of Bruins hockey but I thought it was a decent episode---and the reason I think it was a decent episode is because the death seems to have brought back the Max Evans I have missed---at least shades of him-LOL!@! I don't know am I crazy or did anyone else notice a change? Considering only a few episodes left of course I would have liked to deal with more Liz/Max issues but....oh well, thats another story. Certainly I think the episodes from Changes onward should have started the season and maybe Roswell would not be ending? I must tell you I found myself wondering if Agent Burns took Jessies place though?--LOL They certainly left that open ended. |
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Posted 04-27-2002 09:46 PM by Zero
elenac - we must have telecommunicated! IT struck me yesterday that IF on Max's death Mikey G got the seal, wouldn't Rath have gotten the seal from Zan on Zan's death - or were the Dupes really only decoys with no "Seal" in any of them - or the fact that Max was still alive kept the seal where it was for the time being. But why jump to Mikey G and not Rath - of course, who knows where the heck he is anyway. Unfortunately, I don't think the writers even thought about this all. Obviously, the seal had a major effect on Mikey G - bringing out the Rath in him - even to bragging about "having" Iz before Jesse was born. I too did not understand why after what had occured, Liz would put up a wall - but I did like the mini-golf chat. And I didn't see anything tied up - yet - but I'm hoping. And, yes, Grace Kel - the old Max was back - and I think it had to do with the lack of seal which seemed to take the drive to lead, etc. out of him. I think the trip to NY, and the revelation that he carried the seal was the trigger that started bringing out the alien-jerk in Max. OT - Reggie - why didn't anyone warn me that Farscape was back with new episodes. I noticed it was back on Friday night, and caught the last of the season!! So bumbed out - now I have to hope they replay them before the new season. I get so confused trying to keep up with all these shows that get pull off the air, then put back on without notice - unless you are in on the secret. I did catch that the new season starts in June. Zero |
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Posted 04-28-2002 09:57 AM by elenac
Gracekel - the reason I think it was a decent episode is because the death seems to have brought back the Max Evans I have missed---at least shades of him! The weird feeling I got was that either the experience of death changed his priorities, therefore his line about giving up his leadership and the quest of his son, or that he is actually another person after the morphying. As if he is Max but he still holds something of Clayton. His human side now prevails even more on the alien one, thus he now feels he is allowed to give up his past. My feeling was that he wasn’t just trying to win Liz back but there is more to it, like he was declaring he isn’t responsible anymore for what happened before CDB. Zero - we must have telecommunicated! This is a quality Roswell fans have. I often read here something I was thinking myself My take is that when they wrote MTD and MitC they didn’t have in mind WDAMYK. Too bad they didn’t remember those eps when they wrote this last one. But as JK honestly admitted, the writers know well the ep they have to write but don’t know much about the rest. This way though, he honestly admitted that he doesn’t supervise his serie. [ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 04-28-2002 02:12 PM by GraceKel
Zero congrats on your new job I forgot to mention this on my last post. Zero and Elenac--my take on royal seal----and I question even this in itself---afterall who gave them this information? Friend or Foe? That is something that bugs me Max says stating it as a FACT that this is the ROYAL SEAL of ANTAR----yes but are you sure Max? I mean it could have been a controlling device, it could be anything? But assuming that it is a fact--my take on this would be that Zan said in MTD--they don't want the number 2, they want the royal4---Nicholas referred to them as royal rejects--I am guessing that Zan the Dupe would not have the seal, since there is only one true king? As for Max losing his desire to lead--but thats just it---he was LEADING much better in this episode, just as he had in season1 pre-destiny manifesto-LOL!!! |
Posted 04-28-2002 05:54 PM by shapeshifter
quote:and: quote:My thoughts along these lines were: quote: and from Momo on blu5: quote:to which greg5 replied: quote: |
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Posted 04-28-2002 06:07 PM by Immortal Dreamer
Hey all, I haven't been here since the first thread: Yeah... so remind me again why L/M are not having the sex? Some crap about... blah, blah, blah, I'm Jason Katims... no one likes me, blah, blah, blah. peace, |
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Posted 04-28-2002 07:38 PM by Swordfish
Ha guys, this ep tied up the fact that Max was the true king. That there can be only one and he bears the seal, that if the og was killed that the next in line would take his place untill the mission was completed. The dupes, were just that dupes planted there to confuse the enemy. Zan died, nothing happened to Rath..because they are the decoys. Max and Liz are destined to be, the problem now is to find out how to prevent the deaths of Michael and Isabel. they must trust eachother. Liz is keeping her feelings bottled up and Max is also keeping his demons locked away. This is hurting both of them, remember in season 1 they were completely open to each other and that was there strength. Michael is not the truthful king, like his girlfiend mrs. Mikey G..so wanted to believe..He can't handle to pressure, he is too weak, lacks good judgment, and completely embrased his alien side. This closing the door that was most definantly open that ha, why can't I be king? He will remember what he did and shoudl be ashamed of his actions, no matter how thereputic they were. Life is messy and nothing ever truly makes since, does it? Then Katims has done a great job of cleaning up.. Oh, and Liz is right to hold back, she has just realized that she has no life without Max. Her whole future is now altered..Her dreams and Her parents goals are now down the drain.. How can someone deal with that...Maria is fighting it, but Liz is trying to absorb and move with it.. I commend all of them, Roswell forever |
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Posted 04-28-2002 07:51 PM by shapeshifter
ITA with greg5 that the reason Max's son didn't get the seal would be that it was an engineered thing. I remember Kal's dismay/shock about Max mating with another alien--maybe it can only be passed to a human/alien cross. Hmmm...maybe part of the Tess/baby plot was to cut off the royal line. Kal also encouraged Max to go back to 'his girlfriend' (Liz). Also, re Michael being next in line: this would be a military strategy. He was "Second in Command." |
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Posted 04-29-2002 08:34 AM by elenac
About the royal seal, even if there are only three eps left and probably our questions will remain unanswered, it’s still fun to speculate. It could be possible that the NY4 were just decoys but why not accept that mom and her stuff engineered two separate sets, to make sure that if one was to die the other one was to replace the first one. In this case it makes more sense that both Max and Zan bore the royal seal and that it was necessary that the two sets lived separate lives. To support this, the NY4 were contacted for the summit and also remembered their past life. Not that I’m an expert, but following my logic the first set, the NM4, had rights of primogeniture therefore the Granolith (up to now their way home) and the Destiny book were entrusted to them. Whether they died, the protectors had the task to bring up the NY4 set. Now going back to MTD and MitC, Zan refused to participate to the summit and Rath killed him, hoping to take charge, even knowing about the test on the royal seal (they had already been contacted). There is one thing that Rath says to Max which isn’t true and that’s that only Lonnie, Ava and himself knew about the NM4. Nicholas knew of their existence since Harvest and he also knew that the NM4 held the Granolith. He was probably the one to claim to have Max to the summit in order to get hold of the Granolith, despite who had the royal seal. Moreover, I believe that the fact that the royal seal passed to Michael is a CHAD, because the next in the succession line is Isabel (or Lonnie) and certainly mom, even if she’s alien, wouldn’t pass it to someone not of the family. About what greg5 said on the royal seal not passing to Max’s son, is it possible to program someone that doesn’t exist? Like a peripheral of a computer? (how sad!) SS about the royal seal passing on a human/alien cross, do you think that if this was the case, mom would have sent the bride with her son? In my opinion, royals have very strict rules on these issues and are not so open to commoners (even if something’s changing now) and Liz’s importance in all this is that she is the unexpected event that beaks the cycle (or destiny). Let’s not forget that she saved Max’s life in MitC (and in other occasions) while he was with Tess and that Ava wasn’t able to save Zan’s life. [ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
Posted 04-29-2002 08:12 PM by shapeshifter
quote: elena, I still think that part of the Momogram was a Tess mindwarp. I realize there hasn't been anything mentioned to support my idea, but if it was true, it could support the idea that the Royal Seal needed to be passed on to a human/alien cross. Or, maybe Mom didn't know that they had engineered it so a human was necessary. Maybe only Kal knew. (just speculating ) But yes, I have also always liked the idea that Liz was "an unexpected event." So then, maybe nobody knows that the seal can only pass on to a child from and alien/human marriage. Or maybe it can't pass on to an alien/human child, but that is a good thing because it will put an end to the monarchy that "enslaves" Max's people. If this is true, then maybe the royal seal isn't "inherited" until the child 'comes of age.' This would explain Max's change of character: it is the curse of the seal. [ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 04-30-2002 07:27 PM by Reggie
Well, for what it's worth, I think I've tracked down where Liz got her electrical power this season. Anyone watch Buffy The Vampire Slayer? Remember the episode where a guy built a robot girlfriend? Classic. So classic, in fact, that a "similar" idea was used on the cartoon Batman Beyond (copyright 2000). A guy got a girlfriend-bot. Then he wanted rid of her... and like all good robots thwarted, it went berserk. While berserk, it started throwing off electrical sparks, just like Liz. The connection? The voice of the girlfriend-bot was provided by Shiri Appleby! |
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Posted 04-30-2002 07:35 PM by Zero
Reggie - !!! Zero |
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Posted 04-30-2002 08:38 PM by shapeshifter
Reggie! You mean there really is a ***whispers*** lizbot? K, just watched it. Deja vu on the ending from Season 1 (don't look if you haven't seen Crash yet): end of TLV pic Once again, the direction on the last scenes was great. Gracekel it with the captions on. more later. |
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Posted 05-01-2002 10:23 AM by Alexis
Shapeshifter--Do you mean the similarities between Isabel swirling around objects in the room just as Tess did with the Buddha statue and finding out about the aliens on video? So, the promo shows Liz using her “new” found powers along withTess showing up. Do you think she can use her powers when she is angry/frustrated. That seems to be when she is “electrical.” |
Posted 05-01-2002 07:27 PM by Reggie
quote: You don't have to be spoiled to figure this out. Wouldn't The Real Liz have told Max, "Max, we have to help them!"? And wouldn't The Real Max have wanted to? Instead of being silent, and reluctant, respectively? Yes, Virginia, there is a Lizbot! <ROTFL> [ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 05-01-2002 11:57 PM by Norma Bates
In regards to the seal being passed to Michael I have several thoughts. 1. The seal on Michael was NOT the same seal that was projected from Max in MitC. Max's seal was in his head and Michaels was over his heart (left side of chest.) 2. If you watched the promo, the seal WAS passed to the devils Spawn and it appeared in his head similar to Max. But I thought I counted 8 stars not 5 although it might just be my grace-kelling that added a few. 3. The Spawn is a baby and he would need a regent to hold his place until he is old enough to rule. I think Michael was "regent" because the seal was over his heart and not in his head. 4. The King seal would not be passed to Isabel because she cannot be "KING" because she is female. Although I have not seen any indication that it is true, I am guessing that Isabel probably has a seal also, just not the same one. More of a "Queen or Princess" seal if her mother is dead or more likely a "Queen/Princess-in-Waiting" (possibly over her heart also) if her mother is still alive. Max was King Zan which indicates that his father was dead and that's why he had the seal. 5. As Nicholas said to Rath in MitC: "Royal rejects more like it" Rath: "Hey, yo, get this straight. We are the originals. They are the rejects." Nicholas: "Ha. Uh, gee...they were carefully hidden away in Roswell and got custody of the granilit. You were dumped in the sewer. Figure that out." To me this indicates that the NM4 is the Original Royal 4 intended to reclaim the throne. Not the NY4. Most likely the seal wouldn't be passed to the NY4 unless the NM4 were wiped out. 6. Michael was married to Isabel in his previous life. If Max were dead and left no heirs, then Michael would have been King through marriage. 7. Michael's extreme "Michael to the Nth degree" response to gaining the Seal could be caused because the powers were gradually shifting to him and slowly overwriting his previous "program" and natural tendancies. He did not gain Max's powers instantly. They were probably throwing things out of wack and in time he would have settled into a steadier role. Perhaps Michael's response is similar to what was happening to Liz in Ch-Ch-Changes except that he was already an alien. |
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Posted 05-02-2002 06:11 PM by shapeshifter
Norma, Mommo said the same "Regent" thing about the seal over on the sci fi thread. It makes sense, but this is Roswell. |
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Posted 05-02-2002 06:17 PM by Zero
Hi All! Great analysis Norma Bates! As much as I don't like Tess, I'm really looking forward to this next episode!! I enjoyed this last episode, though missed Liz. She is once again barely there?? I'm hoping this will change in the last two episodes!! Zero |
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Posted 05-02-2002 09:36 PM by Norma Bates
I don't stick my nose in the Sci-fi thread because I'm too busy. Momo, they say great minds think alike although most people don't want to be associated with me...I'm a little crazy...so my sincere condolences. LOL Another thought with the sign over Michaels heart versus the head...Michael is ruled by emotions which are generically associated with the heart. He feels strongly and throws his heart into what he does. Max on the otherhand also feels strongly about things but his head, the thinking, meditative, planning part rules him ususally. Possibly Michaels programming was geared toward the heart and that's why it appeared there. In time, as his programming was rewritten into "king-mode" possibly the symbol might have migrated to his head eventually. Because it activated in his heart, it cancelled out what little "head" he had and put "heart" into overdrive thus giving us Michael to the Nth degree. I believe the next episode is the first episode that Bill Saddler ever directed. I think Katims gave him that one because the fans are less likely to rip Bill than any of the others since he might finally have a clue that the audience it mostly anti Tess and it was likely to annoy people globally (Dreamers, Rebels, Candy-Clanners, etc.) On a side note, I don't know if anyone has seen the interview with Katims in which he said to the effect that he never pays attention to what the audience wants because it will only drive him crazy. Gee, Mr. Katims, could that be part of the reason why ratings fell so much??? Can we say clueless. In another interview he mentions not wanting the stories to get into mythology (like Liz Myth). This again, I think, is a direction that people wanted explored. He really is making me I can post it if anyone's interested. |
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Posted 05-03-2002 07:00 AM by elenac
This episode was a real thriller: a crash in the desert, militaries, explosions, rescues etc. Talking about déjà vu: the scene of the crash was identical to the one of the film “Roswell-The alien attack” I watched few months ago and the Colonel's daughter looked like Laurie Depree with a different hair style and blue lenses Was Liz the same person of last episode’s? I have to re-watch the mini golf scene to discover if Max, besides asking her to go back together, told her some magic word I didn’t get Did I miss somewhere in the series the news that Liz’s mom didn’t survive her imprisonment and consequent release? We’ve witnessed a new way of shapeshifting (it’s a first), since Michael with a mask was able to look like the agent(?) that was murdered. Really I can’t keep up with all new things they come up with. Why on earth Max didn’t protect himself the same way, instead of going around with his own face? I guess no answer! I was also surprised that Max at the end accepted his second in command’s suggestion to look into what happened with the crash. On the whole it seemed like a “mission impossible – 2” like in Panacea only with a happy ending, they’ve been exposing themselves too much letting the Colonel and his daughter witness their powers. Pa Evans must be an alien too if he thought that an earthly son-in-law could possibly believe in one single word of his man-to-man talk about his problems with Isabel. Really loved Isabel’s number of an angry Mary Poppins. I wish I could also do it |
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Posted 05-03-2002 09:16 AM by Alexis
I was really appalled at how obvious it was from WDAMYK to Crash that the writers don’t talk to eachother or have complete memory lapses from one episode to the next. In WDAMYK Liz was being “cautious” as Max said and then she’s ready to go “Up North” with Max. It was absurd. Michael was also making excuses for himself at the beginning of Crash when he had done a Michael-apology as in “You did what you had to do.” At least Michael’s character is a volatile one, so I can pass it off as that, but having Liz go from “cautious” to “conjugal” is just wrong! They really are trying to rush it, I guess. |
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Posted 05-03-2002 01:59 PM by shapeshifter
***putting on Roswell Apologist/biologist hat*** Alexis, then again, it could be hormones--maybe in WDAMYK she was OTR, but in C she was ovulating. Still, (***taking off hat***) such wide mood swings seem inconsistant with her logic-driven character. If Roswell had had a stable stable of writers, there would be a Season 4 on Fox. |
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Posted 05-04-2002 03:43 PM by Nemo
Hi, RBI's. Remember how the show used to have many hidden 4's or 3+1 patterns? (Sometimes 4+1 or 3+2 or 1+3+1.) Such patterns have been far fewer lately: "We get it, Nemo, enough with the 1+3=4 already...." But now (in Crash), check out Max's insignia of rank in the Roswell Air Force: IMAGE: communities.msn.com/_Secure/0PwB0cL4SnBczcgAyf7ausNjBGTCX8nL39YUq3TpeYqp*cOC7zNMMsMx6!X5rd1hlIDmK8ke6y1xBFdQgAbK*Wd8uu7tNgW0p/316_346-USAF-Max-1.JPG It has 3 stripes below the star-circle and 1 above. (Again, there is something twofold about the 1, as we have often seen before.) This differs a little from current USAF insignia; the closest match is Master Sergeant, having two stripes below and one above: IMAGE: www.af.mil/news/airman/0199/e7.jpg It seems unlikely that such a nonstandard emblem would be obtained by accident, so I am guessing this alteration was purposeful. (To find out whether we still notice?) It's fun to see the game is still going on. PS: Max would have to look older than a high-school kid in order to plausibly impersonate a master sergeant: most of them, I think, have well over 10 years of service. (Eight years is the specified minimum for this rank, though perhaps some of that can be waived for such an outstanding candidate, especially since he has also served on JAG....) [ 05-05-2002: Message edited by: Nemo ] |
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Posted 05-04-2002 05:56 PM by Reggie
Originally posted by Nemo: "We get it, Nemo, enough with the 1+3=4 already...." And yet, look at her fingers... Well, don't forget that JB is, in fact, 28 (IIRC). So if he enlisted at 18, he would in fact be old enough. NB: Saw "Algebra" (4A+B). Liked it. Some good Liz stuff. [ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 05-04-2002 10:32 PM by Nemo
Long ago (Toy House), as the sheriff was delivering that "Pamphlet of Suspicion" to Diane Evans, something behind him (a knob on the chair back) evokes the symbol for a chess pawn: IMAGE: communities.msn.com/_Secure/0KQAAABAOixlgdhQ0aLGaTZifEJtHOibFINK!6Ku*NUJ7Sr*fAMprT1cLSIm!wgtdBXggf3UOJEs/SP.jpg Again, recently (Crash), there's something like a pawn symbol in the scene where Mrs. Evans is trying to entrap Isabel. (What is that thing? Hasn't it, or something like it, been around for the last few episodes, maybe since the wedding?) IMAGE: communities.msn.com/_Secure/0KQBlOwIOaReHlJko6ZbMVxQrBm8RRUCOXNyYaMjivI2Qog6cqZcH!Cm2aVNMQ0R2F7Db4s7!CO4/EP.jpg (In case anyone is unfamiliar with pawns, here's one.) [ 05-05-2002: Message edited by: Nemo ] |
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Posted 05-06-2002 01:36 AM by roswellian hybrid
wow some really creative people on this board, maybe you guys should be writing for the show? |
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Posted 05-06-2002 05:49 AM by Nemo
Thanks, Zan. You should have seen us in the old days. In fact, you still can -- shapeshifter and Qfanny have preserved an archive: |
Posted 05-06-2002 07:56 AM by Reggie
quote: Thanks for the plug. |
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Posted 05-07-2002 07:46 PM by shapeshifter
Wow. Hey. Reggie. I just saw 4AAAB. (Hey, Nemo, how do you like that acronym? Just like the Wizard of Oz, JK pulled something out of his bag for you too. ) Anyway, Reg, are they going to pay you royalties for tonight's script? 'Course, I suppose they didn't violate copyright since it wasn't for 'commercial' use at this point--it's definitely non-profit. Anyway, I definitely think tonight's ep was subtitled: The Importance of Liz To The Alien Mythology. So Liz trusted Tess enough to drive out alone in the desert with her? Or maybe she trusted her own powers? And the baby did cry when Tess died in the Wipe Out-style firestorm. Tess was JK's baby. Lot of symbolism there. [ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
Posted 05-07-2002 10:10 PM by Reggie
quote: The voting thing? I wondered about that myself. But my Liz voted to kill her. And I saved my Tess; she turned out to be innocent. Too much work for JK, I suppose. But the best compensation is that I've sent a letter to Sci-Fi explaining what went wrong, and how to fix it: Dallas S3, and treat Departure as a cliffhanger to be solved ASAP. No pregnancy, no baby, no "Deal": all MWs. Nikolas as the Villan. I refer to my fanfics as examples. Who knows... |
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Posted 05-07-2002 11:14 PM by Swordfish
Ha guys is it me or the closer it get's to the end of the season the more closer we come to finding out the truth..that Liz is the true queen.. Tess was just a pawn to protect Liz, for some reason everybody is protecting liz..Just how Michael tries to Protect Isabel...
When Liz leaves, Max dies...Max finds Liz and Liz brings him back to life.. and I do believe that only the mate of a certain alien can bring them back...Look at Isabel, Michael didn't have healing powes but he brought Isabel back..interesting Am I the only one who thought that tess would confess that Liz was the true queen in the car? I was so waiting.. |
Posted 05-08-2002 07:10 AM by Nemo
quote:Cool. |
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Posted 05-08-2002 02:00 PM by sandman
“The other side of Liz” There’s another side of Liz you know A side that we don’t often see- A facet of her nature, That she’s not fond of setting free. That part of her is hidden Don’t give her any reason now You’ll win her heart with kindness Her friendship’s worth a fortune She’ll treat you kind and with respect I’ve seen the wrath of this sweet girl God! I love this girl!!!! |
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Posted 05-08-2002 04:31 PM by Musicchild
I think Tess/Ava are just covering for the real bride. I was hoping that they would bring Serena in to Liz's alien sister back on Antar. So many things that could be done. So what is Khivar doing at this present moment? Just sitting on his *** or is he planning an attack. I mean he knows where they are, let's see some action. I know that Agent Pierce is dead, but I got this funny feeling that thinks otherwise, same with Sheila Hubble. |
Posted 05-08-2002 05:41 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Well, in 4AAAB, Liz did initially insist that she pay for the crime. More to the point, I think Tess telling Liz that Max loved Liz, saying that being raised by a killer had its effect, and then the baby crying when she died (or did she teleport out of the alien blast?) all give room for at least a reformed Tess, and possibly innocent since she was doing what she'd been raised to do. quote:In not so many words, I think she did when she said Max always loved Liz, that all the flashes she saw from him were of Liz. I would have liked to have Tess tell Liz that she met Serena on Antar, and that Serena was working with Kvar. Then, the podsquad poke around the ruins of the Tessplosion & find the granolith, start it up, & travel back in time before Alex died.
quote: I assumed it was of Max. But if Max's flashes are of Liz, then maybe that's who the baby will remember? And maybe Max had some sort of Liz imprint to begin with? [ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 05-08-2002 06:51 PM by The Real Momo
This is the episode where Liz addresses the Tess Mess situation and how to response to it. Maria was her wake up call on this. I think it's fitting that Liz rises above the "Tess" mentality here. Where Liz could have chosen to turn Tess over to the military, she chooses not to, not once but twice because her conscious and ethics would not let her choose the low road of revenge. In the end, Liz ironically becomes the instrument through which Tess finds some measure of redemption, and Tess, by sentencing herself to death, gives Liz a sense of justice being served. [ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 05-09-2002 11:26 AM by Alexis
Quote by Shapeshifter I would have liked to have Tess tell Liz that she met Serena on Antar, and that Serena was working with Kvar. Then, the podsquad poke around the ruins of the Tessplosion & find the granolith, start it up, & travel back in time before Alex died. I have had a similar idea of this. My thought was that the “ship” that Tess arrives in is the Granolith. Liz is writing in her journal and a note slips to the ground. Future Max writes that if their original plan fails to change the disastrous ending, they can go back to before Liz was shot to prevent everything from happening (which originally both Future Liz and Future Max couldn’t bear to do because it brought them together if not forever, for a little while). Michael still has the crystal they found at that abandoned building, so Liz uses the directions she finds and alters the crystal. The big question is who goes back? Liz has to go back as she knows the most about time travel and Max definitely, but someone who wasn’t at the Crashdown when the shooting occurred has to be there. I vote on Kyle who can lure the two men out of the café before they start shooting. Right as Kyle is luring the men away from the café Present Liz and Present Max are up in her room while past Liz is downstairs like in the pilot. They have a tender goodbye (both not wanting to give up the moment that changed their lives forever, but knowing it is the only way) as they both know that if it works they will disappear. Max and Liz climb out onto the balcony, but just as Liz is about to step out she puts her journal where past Liz will find it, in hopes that her past self will find it and read it. The shooting is averted and Past Liz goes to her room after her shift and finds the journal reading it straight through in amazement. And then: The final scene would be Liz going to see Max (a la Leaving Normal style) and while sitting on bench their conversation goes something like this: MAX: So, what’s up, Liz? Is this about biology? Okay, well I had a better version of their last conversation, but I can’t find it, but you get the picture. They are no longer in danger and they can avoid the skins mess and the Tess mess yet they can still be together. The love story won’t be the same, but it will still be sweet and magical. |
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Posted 05-09-2002 07:06 PM by shapeshifter
On a quick skim, sounds good, Alexis. I'll read more thoroughly later. For now, I really appreciated this fairwell letter from KKB. Did he actually write direct some eps? If so, which ones? (Like: Max/Liz ones?) |
Posted 05-09-2002 09:42 PM by Reggie
quote: Isn't this the same so-and-so who told us that if we didn't like the way Roswell was going, we should watch Seinfeld or MTM? First JK tries to pretend that everything's sweetness and light, now KKB. Hey, pal, if you "don't know" what went wrong by now, after two years of us telling you, then that's your problem. You made your choice; we made ours, and so did UPN. |
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Posted 05-10-2002 11:10 PM by Norma Bates
Sorta OT. Does anyone know when the next Roswell convention is going to be or if there is going to be one? I know they had one in February but will there be one in August? |
Posted 05-11-2002 03:06 PM by Reggie
quote: IIRC, there's one in LA next Tuesday, to "celebrate" the end of Roswell. There are more details, and info on other Conventions, on the Roswell 2 board and Crashdown. I suspect that there will be more conventions; but for now I'd expect that there will be a pause. Those who've been most enthusiastic and faithful over the years are tired, and have a bad taste in their mouths. I've seen "Graduation", and it is written as The Last Show Of The Series. On purpose, because JK wanted to go in (yet) another direction with it for a fourth season, so he poisoned the well. If you just gotta have more... pick up a copy of ANALOG from your local magazine store. They list science fiction and fantasy conventions in the back. I expect that Roswell will be featured at some of the "mainstream" sci-fi events. Me? I think maybe I'll restart my old subscription to ANALOG. Good sci-fi, with competent authors and a crackerjack editorial staff to guarantee it. My heart's got enough bootprints on it, thank you. I want to follow a good story now. (Nice change...) [ 05-11-2002: Message edited by: Licenced Critic ] |
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Posted 05-12-2002 12:30 PM by elenac
Nothing positive to say on 4AAAB, so I pass. But I can't avoid saying how said it is that so many posters of the board (too many in my opinion) agree to Max's decision to give up the baby, even if both Liz and his parents would have been by his side. Besides such an un-Max like decision! |
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Posted 05-12-2002 01:13 PM by shapeshifter
elenac, I guess Max is thinking of his son winding up in the White Room if he is anywhere near Roswell. The precedent for his action would be Max & Isabel's mother sending their essences to Earth to save them from Kvar. Reggie, are you really a 'licensed critic?' quote:Alexis, I love the possibilities of this. It would give a consistant theme for many episodes. The Journal would be a sort of Holy Grail/Bible. There could be arguments about the cannon of the metallic Antar book (when they find it) versus The Journal. Liz (with Kyle's help ) could convince Tess to be a friend instead of foe. I wonder what Isabel would think in 1999 if she read about Alex, Grant, and Jessie. This Time Travel/Journal Drop-Off could also work with a new cast: The Granolith, having been used more than intended, would not program accurately; Liz & Max would wind up in 1947 (or...?) with a Granolith with a dead battery & no spare parts. So they leave The Journal with Grandma Claudia. Then, the knowledge from The Journal winds up tweaking Jeff Parker's marriage partner selection (he marries the girl who would have died in the car wreck when GC shares that knowledge with him), so "Liz" looks different. Similarly, "Maria"'s mom wouldn't have a baby with a loser father. Somehow the DNA donor selections would also get tweaked so they could have different actors playing the aliens. [ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
Posted 05-13-2002 03:01 AM by elenac
quote: SS, I appreciate your positiveness I really do. Probably if that’s Max’s reason and knowing that the AF knows about the child, I wouldn’t have asked the parents to choose a family for him and therefore go through burocracy, explanations etc. but leave the kid, like they did in the 1800 century, on a church parvis of a big town so to avoid to be linked/connected to him in any way. [ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 05-13-2002 04:10 AM by gij
Just a note on quintessance and the stars, which are mentioned in the intro... you say that Alchemists believed the two arms crossing at perpendicular angles, with four equal arms symbolised the elements, fire earth air and water, and the crossing point was what made up a human. The term they used for this substance was "aethyr", generally loosely interpreted as "spirit" today. By the way... I bet none of you remember me, but I was among one of the first Liz's Mythologists, like, two years ago. I haven't been here in a very long time. -gij |
Posted 05-13-2002 09:14 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Good point! quote:gij, I vaguely remember replying to you--but that is all. However, since I have such a poor memory, I have added a search engine to the Archives of this thread. And according to a search for the phrase "by gij," you posted on Threads 15, 17, 18, 30, and 31. Not only that, but the page tells me that those threads were mostly about these eps: Harvest, Wipe Out, MTD, Disturbing Behavior, & How the other Half Lives. [ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 05-14-2002 01:19 AM by gij
shapeshifter - Well, I didn't remember that much. I remember my theories, but not much else. And if you would now stop stalking me... -gij |
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Posted 05-14-2002 05:45 PM by Zero
Hi All !! Just dropping by before the last episode to say how sad it will be to say goodbye - even though I haven't been too happy with the direction of the show - I still had hope and adored the main Liz/Max relationship. Plus, I have enjoyed all of you sooo much!! Thank you all for making Roswell such a special experience for me!! Here's to enjoying the final chapter of the show! [ 05-14-2002: Message edited by: Zero ] |
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Posted 05-14-2002 07:02 PM by Essence
Well, I wanted to thank all the Liz Mythers for a wonderfully different television experience. I may not have posted much, but I always looked forward to reading everyone's thoughts and specs after an episode. If only a Liz Myther had been in charge of season 2 and 3. What a show it would have been. Take care everyone. Essence Edit - can't type! [ 05-14-2002: Message edited by: Essence ] |
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Posted 05-14-2002 08:12 PM by shapeshifter
What a terrific ending! |
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Posted 05-15-2002 12:02 AM by gij
Ending? -gij |
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Posted 05-15-2002 08:15 AM by Zara
I want to thank you all for the wonderful camaraderie. As much as I've distanced myself from the show lately I didn't expect to be sad when it ended! I does make me sad that I won't see them all again -- especially with so much unresolved. Guess that's kind of the way life is. Anyway, thanks so much for the great conversation and theorizing! Zara |
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Posted 05-15-2002 08:38 AM by aldebaran
I haven't really been here at all during S3, but I was an avid lurker for S1 and S2 - even pausing to contribute itsy bits of insight. In fact, the Liz myth thread is not only what inpired me to register with FF, but my non-stop ramblings about theories and mythology read here are what convinced my husband that I had officially lost it! All of the speculation and analysis that occurred on this thread was incredible to me and truly made the early days of Roswell that much more fun to watch. I can honestly say that I never took notes during a television program before Roswell came along . So, thanks for the fond memories. You made the ride that much more exciting. |
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Posted 05-15-2002 08:47 AM by Metaphysicalgrl
How could I not come by here to say goodbye to the thread that got me posting on Fan Forum in the first place??? I haven't been here much S3, for obvious reasons, but now that we have concluded the series, I wanted to come by and say hello -- and also read through some of your opinions about the season finale. So much for "Liz Is Not An Alien"!!! (Sorry Gracekel!) Thanks for hours of good brain candy back in the good old days, and as always, I'm wishing you all the best in the world... {~}:} |
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Posted 05-15-2002 02:48 PM by Alexis
Hi Liz Mythers!!!! Well, as Max said Liz is “Pure and True and Real!” The series began with the voice of a small town girl and ended with a mature queen! |
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Posted 05-15-2002 03:00 PM by Alexis
Hi Liz Mythers!!!! Well, as Max said Liz is “Pure and True and Real!” We longed to hear more from Liz and read her journal from cover to cover! The series began with the voice of a small town girl and ended with a mature queen! |
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Posted 05-15-2002 03:19 PM by kla
Just want to say I've had a great time reading the Liz Myth board over the last three years. Read some really good stuff here. Just wondering also if anyone else found it strange that in the ending scene of Liz in the car, she gives her name as Liz Parker... looks like they would have had her say Liz Parker Evans since she was leaving the church right after supposedly getting married... Boy the speculators could have a field day with that one. Too bad it can't go anywhere. Good bye and good luck to everyone. |
Posted 05-15-2002 04:25 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Wow, I missed that one too. In fact, I think I missed all bloopers last night. But then lots of science-type women keep their maiden names. But yeah, she should have said "Liz Parker Evans." Still, John "Jeff Parker" Doe's emoting covered all that. I'm just not sure about the white light that covered Max. Was it just Michael's motorcycle light, or an alien blast? ************************* I especially want to thank you all for your contributions that have enabled me to keep the Archives up with a minimum of effort. But I don't think it's over yet. There will be a Roswell Next Generation someday.
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Posted 05-15-2002 05:24 PM by Zero
Hi Everyone! Alexis - Thank you for posting those pictures! I too loved how they ended the show - with a Liz voiceover!! It was very fitting, and I liked seeing Liz happy looking out the van window. But it is so sad to say Goodbye!! While I might normally be a bit critical of some of last night's episode - knowing it was the last, I let most CHADS slide, and focused on the great parts. I loved that the cerebral one of the group - Liz - got the power to see the future - and therefore, change it. This was a natural flow from TEOTW to me, and her character formation. While I would have loved to have seen more done with Liz's developing powers, I appreciated going out on the note that once again she was the source of their salvation! I adored Max's declaration to her on the balcony - and thought it a fitting place since this was where Future Max potentially destroyed her dreams of ever getting that marriage proposal. I also thank the writers for ending as we began - with Liz's journal. I will not regret the decisions made that took the show in directions that were not fruitful or appreciated by me. I will focus on the wonderful experience this show brought me though stretching my imagination and introducing me to all you wonderful people! It has been an Alien Blast!! And I will always have fond memories of you all and the show. I want to especially thank Shapeshifter for all her hard work and nuturing of this thread! I may have written the "Intro," but Shapeshifter made it accessible to you all, and continued to remind me when it was getting time to start a new thread. She is wonderful and truly appreciated!! Thanks for everyone coming back one last time - I hope I cross pathes with you again! Remember, being a Zero is not a bad thing! Zero [ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: Zero ] |
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Posted 05-15-2002 07:37 PM by APPLE DELICIOUS
Hey. Although the future had to be altered per FM, Liz and Max still got married at the age of 19. The path to such was changed, but the "end" result concerning the marriage stayed the same. Kivar was not pleased with the heir (cough). And apparently the turn coat was, which was revealed on earth, the so called queen. She was the source of the royal (3) downfall on Antar, and damn near, repeated it again for them. This time line exposed the true betrayer. This time line exposed the "only" person who could save the royal (3). Liz Parker Evans. I like the sound of that. All hope for Antar is not gone, no way. As it should be, the royal (3) alongwith the humans, through experience and general trust, can one day, fight to take back Antar. The journey that Liz and Max had to take after FM was pure hell, but it taught them a great deal, and many lessons were learned. Experience is the greatest teacher. Style |
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Posted 05-15-2002 09:01 PM by Nemo
I too want to thank all the posters, past and present, who made this thread (together with the symbolism and science fiction ones) one of my regular stops. (Zero, have you noticed the Vancouver BC party thread on Ros2?) [ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: Nemo ] |
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Posted 05-15-2002 09:28 PM by GraceKel
Hello to Fellow Liz Mythers just wanted to stop by and wrap up a few thoughts here with my fav posters-LOL!!! I think the show could have very EASILY have SKIPPED the episode CRASH (entirely---which focused too much on the pilot and his daughter--two strangers) and gone right to 4aaab then STILL have 2 hours to give a DECENT series finale!!!!! One that we were not RUSHING through at the speed of light trying to fit everything in, therefore ruining it. Yes it had its moments and all but still far too rushed for any emotional impact for my taste. Of course I loved the return of Liz's voiceover and journal entries(something that NEVER should have been abandoned---it was part of the glue----and how about the return to the character herself---such a pity we have to be grateful for that but its unfortunately quite true. But Liz was absolutely GLOWING in this episode I must say, always a positive light-LOL!!! As for questions being answered in the last episodes?????----As far as I am concerned----NONE were answered===everything again was left open to interpretation and open ended. Metaphysicalgrl--that is not my sig you are mixing me up with QFANNY I think--LOL!!! Anyone notice the butterfly on Liz's wedding dress? I would just like to say I will always be grateful for SEASON ONE ROSWELL-----I was never so captivated in my life by a story---and Season1 Roz was my absolute favorite show ever in my life---and the strength of that season is what truly inspired the Liz Myth thread to be born I believe and in that process, or that journey I guess you could say we have come together with a common bond on this thread and it has been one of the best experiences to come from this show for me, so to all of you Liz Mythers out there I am have been truly inspired and grateful to have shared this experience with all of you. |
Posted 05-15-2002 09:47 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Ooo! Good point! quote::embarrassed: Thank you, Zero! You allowed me to enjoy my obsession when you were no longer so obsessed. And that is an awesome finale post! With heart! And now, I am having my final obsession session under the guise of recording all this for the Archive. So, first, here is what I would think is a last 'shout out' to Nemo and other Numerologists Among Us: And surely I am not the only one who thought many of the finale's lines were written to give voice to the actors who played the parts rather than just to the characters? Does it matter? Maybe some would rather be left with the impressionistic sense of it, but anyway, here it is for those who can never get enough.
Michael:Let's go. |
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Posted 05-15-2002 10:06 PM by GilrozGirl
I'm basically just a lurker on this thread, but I wanted to give my kudos to all the Liz Mythers. I could never be observant enough to catch as many interesting clues and patterns as you guys have, and your theories are ten times better than just about every storyline that's taken place in the past 2 seasons. So... And for one (rather obvious) thought of my own: I think Liz has officially replaced Tess in the Pod Squad now--she's Max's bride and has an incredibly helpful, unique power. |
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Posted 05-16-2002 09:40 AM by Reggie
I'm not gone yet. I'll be around... I'm one of those people who's always the last to leave. But for those leaving now: be well, be happy, be remembered. Memory is the footprints we leave, and the souvenirs we bring. I hope I'll always remember you all, and perhaps you'll remember me. And in fond memory of Qfanny (who may be by or not- shrug): Liz is not an ! |
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Posted 05-16-2002 10:26 AM by Alexis
GraceKell—I did notice the butterfly on her dress! Liz did say at the beginning of the ep that it (Tess’s death) set her free! Maybe that is what it symbolizes. Liz changing and flying. Of course, their there is the song “Butterfly Kisses: All the precious time ... Like the wind, the years go by |
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Posted 05-16-2002 11:19 AM by kla
I just want to say that I agree that very few loose ends were tied up. But I also think that what we on this thread think are loose ends were simply way over the head of the writers/producers. |
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Posted 05-16-2002 03:05 PM by elenac
Finally Max and Liz’s relationship had a closure and we have to thank UPN for this. If it was up to the writers we would have never had it. A pity that this means that the show’s over. Very touching Max’s proposal to Liz on her roof but I managed not to cry. Strange because I always do when I watch touching scenes. Also very touching Isabel and Jesse’s goodbye. I’ve always liked them and the fact that he gave her her rings back and that they left each other with a promise, perhaps to go back together, was positive. I found a little strange Max’s speech, by the cliff, about giving his throne up. Did it make sense to you? Has there ever even been a throne at all? See, I'm still speculating. Is it time to say goodbye? Why am I not ready to do so? |
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Posted 05-16-2002 03:06 PM by elenac
[ 05-16-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
Posted 05-17-2002 02:27 PM by Alexis
quote: I thought it was odd that Max would say that as well. Why then? He could have just said "I won't make this decision for you." It was very kingly. But him standing up at graduation to save everyone was. Once a king, always a king. As far as not wanting to move on, I don't either! |
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Posted 05-17-2002 03:21 PM by shapeshifter
elenac & alexis, I think the 'throne' part was figurative. But yes, Max gave a demonstration of leadership during graduation. I loved that whole scene. Over at blu5, Island Girl posted a transcription of the page of Liz's journal on the left. The voice-over at the end (with John Doe crying) is from the right-hand page. Here's the left (previous) page: quote: |
Posted 05-18-2002 10:37 AM by Reggie
quote: Well, in "Surprise" doesn't CongresSkin Whittaker make a crack about the "tarnished throme"? If it isn't a literal throne, it's surely a substantial metaphore. It's not time to say goodbye yet. We're still talking. Not to mention the overseas folks still working on S2. [ 05-18-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 05-18-2002 08:08 PM by mezz
For those of you who are leaving I wanted to drop in and say thankyou and goodbye. I haven't posted here much being a whole season behind (we haven't even started S3 yet) but I have loved, simply loved coming by and hearing you all talk. This show and this thread in particular has been the one to make family and friends alike look at me strangly as I have never been so obsessed with anything before like I have been (and still am) obsessed with Roswell. The mythology has made me love the show all the more. Thanks for the intelligence with which you have all discussed. I feel like I am losing something truely special and I haven't even seen the ending yet. Thanks again. You all made me feel welcome. |
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Posted 05-19-2002 09:03 AM by Nemo
mezz, good to hear from you again. Thanks for your words of encouragement. [ 05-19-2002: Message edited by: Nemo ] |
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Posted 05-19-2002 07:03 PM by 4everyoung
I wanted to post a fond farewell to you all. I mostly lurked during S3, but wanted to come out of lurkdome to thank you all for being the mythers that you are. I hope to meet up with many of you again on other boards. It has been a pleasure getting to know you all and sharing thoughts and ideas with you. Good luck to all. 4EverYoung
It was You and You and You and You and You and You..... |
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Posted 05-19-2002 08:16 PM by shapeshifter
4everyoung, beautiful signature line! |
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Posted 05-20-2002 01:59 PM by elenac
Thanks Reggie all go and read again Whitaker's line in Surprise. While still all around, I’d like to thank you for giving hospitality to me on this thread. It was my first time ever participating to a forum and it’s been a really positive experience. This season, in particular, I’ve been able to be updated, even from this far, with the serie and with the ongoing discussion by getting the necessary info from other posters of the board, that I would have never been able to find on my own. As for Buffy I think it's a little too tough for me, I was trying with Farscape, which I don't think airs in Italy, but before I'll be able to move around like in here it'll take me ages One consideration about Graduation: by marrying Liz, Max made equal his human destiny to his alien one. |
Posted 05-20-2002 04:30 PM by LTL
quote: You've pinpointed what I enjoyed most about Graduation (I'd also throw in Max's graduation speech). I was trying to figure out why they would give Liz the power of premonition -- should have known I could find the answer here. This is a perfect example of why Thanks for all the wonderful analysis, the clues, the theories, and the love of Liz and her central spot in the Roswell story. [ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: LTL ] |
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Posted 05-20-2002 04:46 PM by The Real Momo
While I've come to this thread late (although I've been quoted here and on the sci-fi board by others earlier), I've truly enjoyed this short experience. However, as a true myther, there is never an ending, only a new beginning. I trust that happens to Roswell. Gracekel is right. We haven't got the answers and the answers we have have created more questions. Hence the true saga of Roswell never ends. It will be reborn somewhere, sometime. |
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Posted 05-20-2002 07:57 PM by APPLE DELICIOUS
Thanks for that Shapshifter. Writing in her journal was definitely one of the strong points of Roswell. Poetic, but simple. As MR stated in the T.V. Guide - "Intoxicating" My opinion of Liz and Max as a couple same. My opinion of Liz Parker - AMAZING. Human female coupled with alien outcasts, sci-fi to die for, well at least S1 up to eppy 16. Style |
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Posted 05-20-2002 08:51 PM by healersbabe
Hi guys ! Just dropping in to wish you all lots of L OVE PEACE and HAPPINESS !! to Vih (wherever u r!!) IMAGE: superluminous.homestead.com/files/Roswell.gif ~RD |
Posted 05-21-2002 06:17 AM by Tigereyes
quote: Real Momo- I certainly hope Gracekel and you are correct and it will 'never end'. And when it is 'reborn' I'll be there! I haven't posted much on this thread, but have d to here over the past three years, and spent countless hours reading all the wonderful theories, specs and opinions. The RBI's have always been such an interesting group and one of my favorite threads. When I stopped by last nite to the last few pages, I found myself becoming very depressed over the fact that so many posters were saying farewell. I guess I'm one of those Roswellians who is still in severe denial that it's over. Needless to say, I'll miss coming here and enjoying all the discussions.I do have one question...is the "Archive" going to be kept active? Just wondering. I wanted to hand all the RBI's a huge round of applause and say a fond, not farewell, but a hopefull, "See you around". Thanks for everything people!! ~Tiger [ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Tigereyes ] |
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Posted 05-21-2002 07:34 AM by shapeshifter
TigerEyes, I rewatched Destiny with my daughter this weekend. When it's re-aired on the Sci Fi channel, I would think it would generate some new discussion about the Mommogram being a mindwarp in the light of Graduation (re Max's remark that he is not a king, etc.) and other revelations about Tess. I also heard an NPR piece on Star Trek--how it barely survived 3 years before cancellation (and only that long because of viewer letter-writing campaign--now where have we heard of that since?). So, can I say stay tuned? |
Posted 05-21-2002 08:04 AM by Tigereyes
quote: Shapeshifter- You most DEFINITELY can! I know I will... |
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Posted 05-21-2002 11:22 AM by Reggie
A paragraph from The Roush Review, TV Guide 5/25/2002: "Roswell's demise wasn't much of a surprise. Having collapsed creatively even before its transfer from WB, this teen thriller was unable to sustain its intoxicating romantic premise (alien Romeo loves earthly Juliet) against increasingly ludicrous sci-fi subplots." So, at last we know: the importance of Liz to the alien mythology was that without her, there wouldn't be any. Yes, over the years we've come to suspect, and then learned it was true, that the entire subject was a Rorschack test: a mere ink blot, that we thought looked like a butterfly. This could only mean one thing: So let's remember that there are good things in the world. We may not see them on TV, but we do see them in the company of each other. As many goodbyes as are being posted, I don't know how many of us will remain, or how much longer... but then, that's true in real life as well. Farewell to those leaving. Write if you find a new "home", or visit us if you don't. There is always fan-fiction which we could discuss. And we'll hope to see each other again, eventually. |
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Posted 05-21-2002 12:02 PM by jero
Anyone remember me? This was my first 'home' on Fan Forum. It was here that I was reassured that I wasn't alone in my age group. You all were with me when I got my S1 tapes and watched all 21 hours in one weekend. I 'officially' became a member of the Roswell cult on this thread. I was constantly reminded to check the archives! And you all were so nice to me, even "Grumpy"! I stopped coming around because I didn't get the episodes until almost a week after you all did. By then there wasn't anything left for me to post except my agreement. So why am I here now? I heard that you all were saying goodbye, giving up, quitting the Mything. That's hard to believe, but seems to be the case. I may have stopped Mything with you all, but I haven't given up on Roswell. I'd like to invite any of you that want a Season 4 to join us on The first post of the thread contains most of the info you'll need. Later, |
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Posted 05-21-2002 12:13 PM by provence
I too haven't posted much on this thread but I have always, always found it so enjoyable! I apologize if this has been pointed out - but I was overjoyed to see the 'butterfly' on Liz's wedding dress! It just made me think of all of you and it seemed so fitting! IMAGE: www.theddd.com/grd/gr139.jpg And I also agree that it makes meaningful sense that Liz should have the power to see the future! |
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Posted 05-21-2002 10:49 PM by GraceKel
Hey Provence---so nice for you to stop by--the ultimate cherishing dreamer that you are--LOL!!!!! Oh back in the early days of swooning--it was so nice. I visited the cherishing thread less frequently as time passed--because well, I think you know--LOL!!!! Since you all enjoyed the butterfly so much--I will throw one more at you--something I thought of right away when I saw it------"don't worry, you are still going to get your wife, your white picket fence, your backyard barbecue...." backyard barbecue---and Max reaches into the barbecue to form a diamond--LOL!!! |
Posted 05-23-2002 11:42 AM by Reggie
quote: I can't agree. Liz was saved by Max, who used "alien power" on her. It made sense for her to have been changed by that. It makes sense that her "power" is to be in two places at once, since she is in two "worlds" at the same time: human and alien. But when FMax arrived on her balcony, no alien power was used on her. He could have arrived at the site of The Granolyth (where he left the future), and walked into Roswell. It could have been FMaria that came back, for that matter. So there's no reason for Liz to be changed (in the "powers" sense) by TEOTW. Her ability to "flash" the future is a non-sequitor. If they'd said she always had a touch of clarvoyance, or that her grandma did, you could say her own natural ability was enhanced. But they didn't do that. (The Official Dreamer smiley!) |
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Posted 05-23-2002 07:37 PM by shapeshifter
Reggie, your post above is your perpetual pessimist showing through, but I will always try to remind you of the non-evil within yourself: quote: GraceKel, I am so glad you are in true form till the end with the backyard barbeque catch. I would have been disappointed if you didn't have at least one more for us. And now I am noticing it is a "BB" like "Blood Brothers" and what were the others? And the "back yard barbeque" is also a bit of a pun for what Tess did in WO and again in Crash (which I maintain only opened a wormhole for her). |
Posted 05-24-2002 10:38 AM by Reggie
quote: Perpetual pessimist? For the Archives, do you need any of my files? I have a few screencaps online that we've used, plus my fanfics. |
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Posted 05-24-2002 11:47 AM by Shilohaura
I, too, am one who's not posted here a lot, but have really enjoyed the discussions! And I think Reggie's post points out most to me that the story and characters that live in OUR hearts and imaginations (if not the writers' and producers'!) still have mysteries to discover and stories to be told! Whether the show's on or not, there are still many issues and questions that have been laid on our table to spec about - Grandma Claudia being one of them!!! I hope that not everybody leaves the realm of speculation. The discussions are just as valid and interesting even without the show! The world of Roswell lives within. |
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Posted 05-24-2002 01:54 PM by Vihmakass
Hi! ...and special hi to Healersbabe ! We saw they leave Roswell, im still wondering - does they know where they go?...let's speculating...they go to Michaels "sister". She has protected house, she knows their secret, she is one who is able help them. I think...this must be place where they go? Or...? -------------------- im not leaving FF boards, nowdays im lurking at BTVS-S/B spoiler board (silly dreamer like i am, :P ). But still - this is my second fav. place, LizMyth is allways first ... with love... Vihmakass [ 05-24-2002: Message edited by: Vihmakass ] |
Posted 05-24-2002 07:43 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Yes! Vihmakass, you are always so brilliant! I would like to think that when the Sci Fi channel begins airing the reruns that more speculations will be generated. Many of our best discussions have been over reruns when we can look at the past Roswell in the light of later developments. |
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Posted 05-24-2002 10:40 PM by Zero
Hi All! Just wanted to let you all know I'm still lurking - though been off-line due to computer issues for a week now! Grace Kel - love the barbeque catch!! Wasn't there a white picket fence in the wedding scene?? Provence - Thanks for the picture so clearly showing the butterflies - I must admit to missing them due to the tears in my eyes! Healersbabe - Thanks for the beautiful photo and message. I will continue to lurk, and "think" about the episodes! I hope everyone has a wonderful Holiday Weekend!! And Nemo - I just saw something about Vancouver - but on 50 people?? I would love to go, but ... (feel free to e-mail me if you have more info about the feasibility). Zero |
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Posted 05-25-2002 04:11 PM by Nemo
Zero, I sent you a PM. |
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Posted 05-25-2002 07:24 PM by **That*Maria*Girl**
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Posted 05-26-2002 10:10 AM by Reggie
Zero: I've heard that Alias is worthwhile. I can also recomend Farscape and Stargate, both of which will now be on The Sci-Fi Channel Friday evenings. (I'm on the Farscape thread, over on the General Television board (the one that is just above WWF; not the other one.) [ 05-26-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 05-26-2002 01:48 PM by Vihmakass
to all! Shapeshifter , thank for good words! ...i hope you can saw reruns soon.Here we didn't see even s2 and s3 . But this cant stop me still thinking about Roswell bc. all story feels so not compleated, it is still open case.Maybe someday ....a.s.o. I have suggestion: we can name spec.'s * Future Spec.'s(FS) - about things what not happened in show (yet) but have possibilties hapen in future due past plotlines and character building. *Background Spec.'s (BS) - about things what may happen in show but we didn't saw this.Behind screen events whats consequences didn't come yo know/true/in before show end's but have some logical possibilities due plotlines or characters behavior. *This is only suggestion!!!! But i hope if fan's have good ideas and littlebit fate, there comes day when somebody have opportunity make Roswell2. Ok, i know - like i was silly dreamer, i still is... ----------------- Im so many times heard that Farscape is good. Im so sad im never gonna see this show... , same about Alias... And..if anybody here is from Europe - do you saw Eurovision songcontest? i know it is littlebit lame... but this year it was in my hometown! Eh, im "poof" now before i a shame myself totally... |
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Posted 05-26-2002 03:12 PM by Nemo
provence, thanks for pointing out the butterfly (on p.8). A few more things that might be symbolic: 1) Recently we learned that the baby's supposed breathing problem (in BIY last year) was a false alarm. This appears to be symbolised by the false fire-alarm (same episode), which was also due to an alien conspiracy (Isabel / Kyle vs. Max). 2) At the end of Graduation, just before the wedding party emerge from the church, we see a tree from which several limbs have apparently been recently cut. Maybe the tree-trimming was necessary to clear the way for filming (as conjectured on the OTO thread), perhaps to admit more light to the walkway. But if that were the only reason, the scarred tree trunk could have been kept out of view, as in the second picture below. Instead, we are first given a close view of the scars. Perhaps this is to symbolize our friends' isolation (being cut off) from their families back home? IMAGE: communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LwAAANkQNJI2bofYncI2GRDWuGRcdaC0h1gz7bK7UXEUosL6WluNTDJNifFz2hY*goPaBK9OGYw/treetrim.jpg IMAGE: communities.msn.com/_Secure/0LwAAAIEQt4SxfxKgbAjQcfl2sGMPnbx3DB2UzCkRdUvhLggwUPY*ZL1buv0tQR2pkp8cyyH6!zI/wedding2.jpg [ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Nemo ] |
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Posted 05-27-2002 10:21 AM by Reggie
Interesting, Nemo. Interesting... You see that there are three "big cut places" on one side, Sound familiar? |
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Posted 05-27-2002 12:16 PM by Nemo
Now that you mention it, Reggie, that does seem oddly familiar, somehow. Note also the four plant pots. And a few other fours I hadn't seen until recently: Label on Isabel's water bottle
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Posted 05-27-2002 12:41 PM by elenac
quote: Vih keep on going with your imagination it'll stir ours too. I'm from Europe. When did the Eurovision contest take place? I generally watch it but probably missed it this time. |
Posted 05-28-2002 04:12 PM by Vihmakass
quote: hi , ...and im traing, im traing... |
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Posted 05-28-2002 05:31 PM by aldebaran
This is slightly OT, but it made me immediately think of a particular Liz myther. I saw a man on a motorcycle today whose t-shirt said, "Zero or Die". Of course, I thought of Zero! Just thought I would share....back to lurking |
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Posted 05-28-2002 06:39 PM by shapeshifter
Vihmakass, Reading your post makes me think that Liz was the perfect soulmate for Max because of her natural gift. Tess was never the right one (they died the first time). I am also enjoying imagining the aliens & friends having adventures with all of their former friends and relations. In the scene in graduation where Max proposes marriage, he spends an inordinate amount of time fluffing up a red blanket. This post from blu5 claims that in the uncut version, they "cemented": quote: It is interesting that history did repeat itself post TEOTW: Liz & Max cemented before getting married at 19. Maybe that was part of FM's "surgically precise" timing--so they could live happily ever after. Yes, I know they believed they would never see each other again in the opening scene with the granolith, but I think FM started playing it by ear (think by heart ) once he saw PL again. [ 05-28-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 05-29-2002 02:30 PM by Reggie
I can vouch for that scene, because the Spoiled Dreamers have known about it for months. And half-expected that JK would edit it out; which he did. Note that it appearently was filmed: it was done on a "closed set" (i.e., no KH for distraction), it was in the final script (we have a copy), and Shiri said (in her Rosie interview) that Liz lost her virginity in the season finale. Who knows? There's rumored to be a Roswell DVD coming eventually; and such usually have cut scenes available. We may see it yet! |
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Posted 05-29-2002 05:39 PM by shapeshifter
Reggie, the pre-nuptial cementing would also give sense to Liz's journal line of something like: "Oh yeah, and Max & I did eventually tie the knot." I'm not saying I do or do not approve, just that Max floofing the red blanket like it was a bridal veil, and that remark of Liz's, just don't quite fit if they didn't do it then. Also, it sort of fits with the way humans (and Antarian) behave in life threatening conditions--hence the post-9/11 baby boom that's arriving this summer. Anyway, thanks, Reg, for confirming it.
quote: And Reggie, I guess you also knew that they cut a line where Kyle tells Isabel that he had sex with Tess? [ 05-29-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 05-30-2002 05:24 PM by mezz
I am probably speaking wrong here as I haven't seen any of S3 but it seems to me, from what you are all saying, like Roswell was left at a place where S4 or whatever they do with it, can contain any of the old enemies and still lots of mything. If they continue to travel they can still return to Roswell for the pod chamber and to pick up more clues. They might find they have to return to Roswell because of what they learn elsewhere. Perhaps they can combine both Roswell and other places. I personally would hate to see the complete loss of Alien symbols being discovered and learning about their past. To have them turning into sperheros or just do gooders seems sad to me. The beauty of Roswell was that its premise was so different to everything else on tv. Perhaps they are not royalty and that was all a mind warp (or a mind twist) but they are still here for a reason that they don't know. There are still powers and abilities they haven't discovered and enemies. After all the skins were there for a reason (and what exactly did happen to Nicholas?) and Kivar was never fully explained or realised. |
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Posted 06-01-2002 02:44 PM by elenac
Thanks Vih for the information, I definitely missed it. Talking about the importance of Liz for the aliens, it seems (at least reading spoilers) that that was what they writers wanted to explore in S4. |
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Posted 06-01-2002 03:40 PM by shapeshifter
elena, could you please post the url to the Season 4 spoilers. Nemo (if/when you check in): In Interruptus, the scene where Jeff is sitting alone in the Crashdown, the camera keeps an object in the left screen for at least a dozen frames. It's a checkerboard pattern with 2's and/or 3's in the squares. Reggie, don't suppose you have a screen cap of that? [ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 06-02-2002 02:04 AM by elenac
Shapeshifter - It was on blu5.com but I can't link there anymore (like with crashdown.com). Once they change something I don't know what to do If you have the new link I'll get the right thread, otherwise I have something saved and can PM to you. |
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Posted 06-02-2002 07:21 AM by Nemo
shapeshifter, I see your question but may not get to it for awhile (swamped with RLS right now).... |
Posted 06-02-2002 09:44 AM by Reggie
quote: Oh sure. It's a Crashdown menu. See: IMAGE: www.nb.net/~rarford/menu.jpg (Note that I'm hosting this in my own webspace, not using any FanForum bandwith or storage. Your browser pulled this off of my website. ) And yes, Shapeshifter, I know of that and many other atrocities: they were talking about Kyle professing his love for Isabel, too. [ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 06-02-2002 01:32 PM by elenac
SS - Same spoiler has been posted on the UPN board, in the "Spoilers! Come in if you dare!" thread by Adult Fan on 3/19/02, probably picked up from various sources [ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: elenac ] |
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Posted 06-02-2002 08:26 PM by shapeshifter
Thanks Reggie for the screencap! And thanks elena & Nemo for the replies. I checked out the first ep of Roswell, The Final Chapter. R * A * M * S dissed it, but that is to be expected. It has some typos. And some serious CHADs. But it's an interesting premise and definitely places Liz as Important to the Alien Mythology. I'd give it a B-. [ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 06-03-2002 08:43 AM by Alexis
How can there be spoilers for Season 4 when it was never started? Is the option back on the table? |
Posted 06-03-2002 10:34 AM by Reggie
quote: I seriously doubt it. I understand that this is from a later proposal for S4 submitted by JK & Co. to UPN for what they would do, if there was a fourth season. The earlier idea (no Healing, no Conection, no M&L romance) was what got Roswell cancelled early (18 not 22 eps.). JK was trying to salvage it, when this proposal was made. Again, as I understand it; not know it. |
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Posted 06-04-2002 06:49 AM by shapeshifter
Reggie, do you have a screen cap of the "lovers" Tarot card from Graduation? I woke up this morning with an epiphany. Maybe you all understood this, but I was a little dense. The lovers to which Michael's card referred are Max & Liz. Madame Vivian directs Michael to "follow the love" in order to prevent the death of many. This means that he is to leave Roswell after the "love," which would mean leaving after Max & Liz. ***************************** Separate tidbit. Found this at Leaving Normal's spoilers. It's an alleged cut line from Graduation:
* LIZ: It would be hard for me to do that actually. * CUSTOMER: Hm. Alright, I guess I’ll just stay with the Roswell burrito. * LIZ: Smart move. This is actually the last night for the Roswell. New menus tomorrow and it didn’t make the cut. * CUSTOMER: What?! I’ve been eating the Roswell burrito for the past three years. It’s a classic. * LIZ: Hey, I just work here. I don’t decide what’s on the menu. [ 06-04-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 06-04-2002 08:04 AM by GraceKel
Shapeshifter that was exactly what I thought the card meant too-LOL!!! |
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Posted 06-05-2002 12:07 PM by shapeshifter
GraceKel et al, Putting on my Roswell Apologist Hat : If they had the whole 2 hours for the finale, I imagine there would have been a scene that would have let the viewers know more clearly the meaning of the card before Michael did, thus inferring that Michael too understood it when he threw it down and roared off to the rescue. Armchair quarterbacking it: the intro "formerly on Roswell" scenes would have ended with Madame V. giving EOTW Liz the Lovers Tarot card, then fading from the shot of the card to Max & Liz in their opening make out scene. This would have given the makeout session some meaning, as well. Slightly OT, I would also like to think they would have reshot the scene where Max hesitantly climbs on the back of the bike, carefully moving his flammable prop gown out of the way of the exhaust pipes. So, now, please, someone (if anyone is still there ), what is the significance of Kyle smelling like sewage? |
Posted 06-05-2002 12:33 PM by Reggie
quote: But of course! IMAGE: www.nb.net/~rarford/lovers.jpg It's from the scene with Michael on the motorbike, just before he follows the Lovers (L&M) to the school for Graduation and rescue. And Kyle smells like sewage because he's been working on the sewage system of a motorhome. [ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: Reggie ] |
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Posted 06-05-2002 01:38 PM by Vihmakass
Re: "Lovers" This card is from Rider-Waite Tarot and from Major Arcana. http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/riderwaite/index.html quote: THE LOVERS An angel or cupid, a man and a woman, two trees (in Waite, it is Adam & Eve with one tree having a serpent and apples) - in some decks one tree is flowering, but the other has fruit. Also in some decks there is a man standing between two women. Basic Story The Fool comes to a cross-roads, filled with energy, confidence and purpose, knowing exactly where he wants to go and what he wants to do. And comes to a dead stop. A flowering tree marks the path he wants to take, the one he's been planning on taking. But standing before a fruit tree marking the other path is a woman. He's met and had relationships with women before, some far more beautiful and alluring. But she is different. Seeing her, he feels as though he's just been shot in the heart with cupid's arrow, so shocking, so painful is his "recognition" of her. As he speaks with her, the feeling intensifies; like finding a missing part of himself, a part he's been searching for his life long. It is clear that she feels the same about him. They finish each others sentences, think the same thoughts. It is as if an Angel above had introduced their souls to each other. Though it was his plan to follow the path of the flowering tree, and though it will cause some trouble for him to bring this woman with him, to go somewhere else entirely, the Fool knows he dare not leave her behind. Like the fruit tree, she will fulfill him. No matter how divergent from his original intent, she is his future. He chooses her, and together they head down a whole new road. Basic Meaning Originally, this card was called just LOVE. And that's actually more apt than "Lovers." Love follows in this sequence of growth and maturity. And, coming after the Emperor, who is about control, it is a radical change in perspective. LOVE is a force that makes you choose and decide for reasons you often can't understand; it makes you surrender control to a higher power. And that is what this card is all about. Finding something or someone who is so much a part of yourself, so perfectly attuned to you and you to them, that you cannot, dare not resist. In interpetation, the card indicates that the querent has come across, or will come across a person, career, challenge or thing that they will fall in love with. They will know instinctively that they must have this, even if it means diverging from their chosen path. No matter the difficulties, without it they will never be complete. Thirteen's Observations The Lovers is a confusing card as it is ruled not by an emotional water sign but by airy Gemini. The original trump featured a man and a woman with a cupid above them about to shoot his dart. Later this became three figures, the interpetation being a man choosing between two women, or a man meeting his true love with the help of a matchmaker. Still later, with Waite, we have an Angel above Adam and Eve. The Angel stands for Raphael, who is emblematic of Mercury and Air, planet and element of Gemini. Gemini is the communications sign. It's all about messages and making contact; also, as it is the twins, about finding your other self. In this regard, you can see that the Lovers begins to make sense. Especially if you change it back to "LOVE." Here is a card about perfect communication, about finding something your soul requires. In this regard, its most common interpetation about being "A Choice" makes sense. When this card appears, you are being told to trust you instincts, to choose this career, challenge, person or thing you're so strongly drawn to, no matter how scary, how difficult, irrational or troublesome. Because without it, you will never be wholly you. It's sudden and unexpected, and it means a compete change in plans; but this is LOVE. True love. Go for it! ....have a nice Myther moment |
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Posted 06-05-2002 06:16 PM by shapeshifter
Vihmakass, That is so much like the whole story of Max & Liz! Thank you! Reggie, Thank you! I cropped your picture: IMAGE: thesmudge.com/shapeshifter/lovers.jpg And yes, I understood the "real" reason he smelled like sewage was the motorhome care, but I'm looking for another reason. Why include that in the dialogue? Is it just that his life in Roswell 'stinks'? [ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 06-05-2002 08:41 PM by Zara
Hi Shapeshifter et al, This is stretching it, but perhaps the sewage smell symbolizes "waste." Is Kyle wasting his time and making the wrong choice by accompanying the aliens? He loves Isabel but Isabel still loves Jesse... I also believe that Kyle's anticipation of manifesting powers as a result of his healing by Max is flawed; I don't think Kyle will ever have super-human powers. It's kind of sad, really. He may have gone with them with hopes of metamorphoses that may never happen. By the way, yes, I'm still here. I check the Liz Mythology thread every day, though I don't have much to contribute. The other day when the site was down I thought it might be gone for good! I'm not ready for that! |
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Posted 06-05-2002 09:13 PM by shapeshifter
Zara, That sounds legitmate, but I'm still wondering if there was also a plot device to his smelliness--something that was cut out of the 2-hour version of the script? Here's a great Liz-Myth post by Patrick-147: quote: |
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Posted 06-05-2002 10:33 PM by melee the enchanter
OK, I have lurked for so long, and now that the series has ended, and I never posted here before, I feel so, dumb. Yet I have a question that plauges me, its a honest question and I am a big M/L fan. But.... Everyone says that maybe Tess was here to protect Liz. What if it was true, wouldnt that mean that Liz was the one to bring the royals down? Think, if Tess was her protecter, Tess would do everything to take the heat off of Liz to let her get "in good"? Even though everything has pointed diffrent from my theroy, but what if? Future Max said nothing was the same after Tess left becuase him and Liz got closer. Understanding. But couldnt Tess have left for a diffrent reason? Maybe for Liz to do what she was intended to do. Take down the throne. But maybe she couldnt, for reasons unexplained. So she devised a plan to send Future Max back to present Liz (which FM didnt know of her plans, only flashes Liz would send would be happy)to get Tess to stay. FL wants this to happen so that Tess, who works for her can stay and make things worse and appear she is the bad one. While Liz works her way in. Liz appears hurt when Tess sleeps with Max, but in reality she is happy, because her plan is working. All that needs to be fitted in is the pod chamber. Couldnt there be a hidden pod? Then Liz gets into a car alone with Tess. Tess tells her that Max loved her the whole time. And Liz feels free after she dies. Free to do what ever she wants. She needed to become the bride before she works the stuff.
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Posted 06-06-2002 09:58 AM by Reggie
quote: "Everyone" says that? I've rarely heard that suggestion; certainly not here. The original aliens (Mom & co.) who arranged this "artificial reincarnation" seemed to want King "Max" to have his wife with him. It makes sense, in a romantic sort of way. And "Isabel" seems to have been the one that "brought the monarchy down", but she was sent too. As Zan's advisor and "second", "Michael" probably should have advised him better, but he was sent too. There's no place in their Plan for any humans. As Max's wife, Tess's actions (through the end of S2) make sense. She treated Max and the others as one would treat a loved one with amnesia: she tried to jog his memory with romantic thoughts of her, and with her kiss. Unfortunately, that just made him hostile, and violent. Then she tried telling him the bare truth, showing him the pod chamber, etc. She didn't get anywhere with him, even when Liz went to Florida for the summer. Eventually, she realized that Kyle was interesting, and turned her attention to him. Then came TEOTW, and Tess patrioticly stuck by a hurt Max. It's my contention that she was MWed by Nikolas, at the end of MitC; and that "the Deal" was an illusion created by Nikolas to use Tess to lure the Royal 4 back to "Twilo" for re-execution. This explains what happened to Alex (Tess isn't that powerful), explains not-Leanna's involvement, and suggests the origin of the Swedish pictures & stuff. There's also the question of what Nikolas was doing, if he wasn't acting against the R4. K'var's intention to kill Tess may have been in effect all along, not just revealed when Zan Jr. turned out "too human". (If he was more "alien", might he have been useful as a pawn?) So, where does Liz come in? I believe that Max was fundamentally changed when he was re-incarnated. His "nature" may have been the same, but his "nurture" was quite different. The same holds true for Tess, and probably the others as well. I believe that Liz is now the "perfect match" for Max, even if alien Ava was a match for alien King Zan. (The Dupes are also changed, but probably all in similar ways; plus they still seem to remember their original natures & nurtures.) It's possible that Liz is the "natural" reincarnation of alien Ava, drawn by her soulmate across time, space, and species. That would explain their "clicking" even as children. This also leaves the possibility of other "natural" reincarnations of the other podsters being around; but they could be aliens back "home". In any event, Max loved Liz so much, he risked everything to save her. And she did the same for him. It's a pity that JK never realized that that is the core story of Roswell. When he got lost that, he lost us... But there's always Farscape. |
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Posted 06-06-2002 10:05 AM by Alexis
shapeshifter—great observations. I guess it was “in the cards” but also it “wasn’t in the cards” for Roswell on a whole. 3 Seasons is pretty good anyway. melee—you are brave to write as if Liz is the villian on a thread like this! But seriously, interesting thought. You are not stupid! My theory on Tess was more that Tess was Liz’s handmaiden who was chosen to take Liz’s place in the wedding ceremony on Antar for fear of an attack on her life. This would explain why Zan loved his bride so much but never really had feeling for Tess (no matter what the writers wrote in). But what no one (except Tess—whose name is probably something else in reality) is secretly in love with Zan and has the need to feel accepted and loved by him. This would explain her need to seduce him and have him for herself. She feels jilted that she was dealt such a poor hand (there goes the card theme again!) and she accepts Nacedo’s deal. Therefore, Liz is the true Queen. She was pure and real and the one (the only one) for Max, the reincarnated King of Antar. Have any of you read WR’s “Echo”? I am currently reading it. Very interesting! And for those of you who haven’t read “The Importance of Being Elizabeth” that’s a must read. The way he lays it all out makes everything seem natural. Here the link to his site: |
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Posted 06-06-2002 03:55 PM by Alexis
I have some pretty promising news!!!!! I wrote an email to www.roswellstore.com suggesting they get the “Thank you for visiting Roswell” bumper sticker and they just emailed me telling me they would get it in soon!!! I’m excited. I’m turning 28 so I can’t really decorate with posters, etc, but I can put a bumper sticker on my car! |
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Posted 06-06-2002 08:18 PM by shapeshifter
melee the enchanter, Your post shares part of a theory of mine which I have yet to really describe. It is based on the premise that Tess did orchestrate the events that led to TEOTW so that FL & FM would be willing to go back in time and let her have her way. quote:While I agree that it was rarely heard, I was sure it was tossed around here at some point. Soo.. off to the Archives...Here's what I found: quote:In Thread37HoM-CYN it was also suggested that Serena was Liz's protector, and in Thread42OTM there was a lot of discussion of Sean and Liz's protector. But what was really discussed a lot more (if I recall correctly), was the idea of Liz as both the Granolith and Liz as the Protector. Personally, I never saw her as the Granolith, but she does come to the rescue frequently using her mental abilities and high moral ground. Alexis, That's really cool about the bumper sticker. I don't want one for my car, but I would like to have it for my office. |
Posted 06-07-2002 12:31 PM by Reggie
quote: Agreed. The Granolyth was always referred to as an inanimate object. Liz is not an inanimate object. Therefore, Liz is not The Granolyth. I do understand that the word "granolyth" has been linked to some sort of stepping-stone, but I don't think it applies to Liz (despite her doormat status in S3). Courtney still needed directions to The Granolyth, even after knowing (and working for) Liz for months at the CrashDown. And how was Nikolas going to use Liz to get home? |
Posted 06-07-2002 08:40 PM by shapeshifter
quote: |
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Posted 06-08-2002 05:54 AM by GraceKel
Shapeshifter didn't I tell you those damn card references were important-LOL!!! Well wasn't it nice the writers threw us a few nuggetts in the end. Shapeshifter I would love to hear that never yet described theory of yours, I must say I find the theories on this thread more interesting than the show at this point--LOL which is why I am almost interested in writing fan fiction of my own at this point, since I was left so dissatisfied in the end--LOL!!! It was nice for so many Liz Mythers to drop by over the last several weeks, new and old ones. Special thanks to ZERO for running our beautiful thread and doing all that work, along with Shapeshifter for filling in as needed, as well as being the never ending optimist despite some of my snarky posts sometimes--always so respectful, I truly appreciate that-LOL!!! |
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Posted 06-09-2002 09:40 PM by shapeshifter
GraceKel, Thanks for the kudos. Can I quote you on my resume? Hmmm...that theory--Time Travel.... At the time of the opening scene of TEOTW, FM & FL were convinced that Max had to go back & cement ***shudder*** with Tess. It would seem that Tess herself had led them to that conclusion. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." Is that Shakespeare? But that was her ultimate undoing--unless she returns to fight another battle in Roswell, The Movie. |
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Posted 06-09-2002 10:11 PM by Zero
Hi All! Been out of town for over a week now - so a bit behind, but wanted to swing by for quite hello! Thanks Grace Kel for the kind words!! I miss you all, and our Roswell! I hope you are all doing well, and planning on a wonderful summer! Cheers! |
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Posted 06-10-2002 10:40 AM by Vihmakass
hi speaking about theorys, i still thinking about So47 and leaking pod.If we looking this with Ava's and Tess nature...and Nasedo and Nic...im stonesure that Ava and Tess are switched. Ava is real R4 but...harmed by Army and triced to love Zan (this is reason why Zan really never loved her bc she was for Max)by Nasedo or Nic. Tess is taken from NY4 and rised like R4 - with powers what she had (and in my theory NY's and R's have different powers- Iz can dreamwalk but Vilondra can shapeshift etc). And Liz is Ava's incarnation, her lost part is in Liz but in human way...In someway they are like soultwins?(sry.)bc of this she know's Liz can do this warningtrip- she knows her like itself. And when she leaves Roswell she gives her place to Liz...real bride, with all bride's powers, feelings and strenght bc she don't have them anymore - they are lost for her... One thing what makes me think so is Avas word's: AVA: It's all my fault! I should have stopped it. I could have stopped it! I should have known. I should have known. LIZ: What do you mean by changed? LIZ: I don't know why, but I'm really scared to do this. You know, if you can't contact him, what makes you think I can? [ 06-10-2002: Message edited by: Vihmakass ] |
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Posted 06-12-2002 07:37 AM by Vihmakass
3 page!!! No! |
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Posted 06-12-2002 07:58 PM by shapeshifter
Vihmakass, what is even sadder than page 3 is that there are just a few posts left to this thread. But perhaps we will have a "Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology - In Review - Thread #59"? or something like that? I don't think Ava or Tess could see the future like Liz. But it is an interesting idea. Someone on another thread just started me thinking something else about the Dupes: Hal tells Max that he had been keeping an eye on them all along, and Nasedo double-crossed them. Also, Lonnie was very quick to change the subject whenever questioned about their shapeshifter. This could all mean that Nasedo was the Dupes' protector, and Hal was the Roswell 4's protector, which would mean that Nasedo kidnapped Tess. I will be away for a few days. If this thread falls off the board, I will post the text of it on the Archives when I get back. |
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Posted 06-13-2002 07:36 AM by GraceKel
VIH--interesting theory, it is something that might have been explored, the Liz mythers were always full of scathingly brilliant ideas-LOL, I have heard many-------BUT after hearing someone relate their on set visit towards the end of the show and how JK pretty much indicated there was a DISCONNECT between seasons somewhat--especially from season1---which to my mind was the foundation of the show---it has made all our theories moot--because he pretty much indicated that what they started out with for a story WAS CHANGED (therefore all earlier clues may not even match up with later ones---and I don't think they cared about it as much as we did-LOL!!!)
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Posted 06-13-2002 08:04 AM by GraceKel
Maybe someone can come up with a title--Liz Import to the Alien Myth--A Way To Link 3 Seasons of ALL OVER the PLACE--LOL I am sure someone can come up with something better, but you get the idea. |
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Posted 06-13-2002 08:06 AM by GraceKel
Oh here is another one Liz Import the Alien Myth-Lost Potential Found Linking 3 Seasons Together? Our Theories and Speculations |
Posted 06-15-2002 05:37 PM by Reggie
quote: What would be Interesting, would be if someone could get in touch with Thania St. John or David Nutter, and ask them what they had in mind. It's obvious that they were the creative geniuses behind S1 Roswell; and that JK was floundering when they left. As for JK - I don't think he wanted a Mythology, just a "normal" soap opera, with interchangable characters and couples. |
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Posted 06-15-2002 10:02 PM by Melodious1
This is just a drive-by post directed at the Mythers who are ALIAS fans. I realize this is o/t, but since y'all have great minds in here and "Roswell" is over, if y'all want to discuss some new and (thankfully) different mythology, feel free to come over and join in on the thread I started on the ALIAS board. Mythology of Alias. Melodious [ 06-15-2002: Message edited by: Melodious1 ] |
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Posted 06-17-2002 05:44 PM by Zero
Melodious - I may just have to join you over at your Alias thread - I love the show - though I determined to not get hooked on a show like I was with Roswell! I think you can understand why! I am off to start the next Thread - so wait five minutes, and go post over there if you have something to say! I would appreciate it if SOMEONE who has been participating in the current discussion could summarize briefly what all was discussed on Thread 58! Please!! Thanks! Zero |
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Posted 06-17-2002 06:30 PM by shapeshifter
Thank you, Zero for starting the New Thread! Hmmm...summarizing this one? Sounds like a nice project for a summer day when it's too hot to do anything else. I too am determined not to ever get hooked on another show like Roswell--and knowing my track record with such things, there will never be another. Mods, you can close this one. I will have it archived shortly at http://ulink.net/plum/Roswell/lizmythology |