IT WAS A MINDWARP?
1. 05/05/2003 From: roscraze
OOOOOH! Seeing Roswell for the second time, I HATE Tess already, because I KNOW
what she is up to! Mindwarping Max from day one is just too outrageous for words!
No one will ever convince me that this chick cared about Max, or that she was
just trying to make him remember her and what they once had on Antar! Mindwarping
him before he even knew who she was is just too manipulative in my opinion. Does
anyone else wonder just how solid their relationship was on Antar? Seems to me
if they had this "great love" that everyone tries to convince Max of later (including
Larak, another mindwarp?)why would he not have gotten hints of feelings, etc.
for her on his own, without her having to mindwarp him at all? I don't believe
Max was ever destined to be with Tess, in their past or future lives...
3. I'm not so sure that this is mind-warpin
05/05/2003 From: Skovde
I think what's happening is related to the general bonding between the four-some.
You can't look at Max's actions as a response of his outward desire; he made his
outward desire plainly clear...to Liz. He is being reunited with Tess and it is
beginning to churn long dormant memories...those alien memories and his alien
connection to her are bubbling and spilling over the brim; overwhelming his conscious
awareness. His alienness is being 'tickled' by Tess and her presence...his alienness
is reaching out to Tess...his memories are reaching out to her and to him and
it really is causing quite a stir. I don't think it's as easy as people say, i.e.
that Max should never have kissed her...I don't think you can look at the situation
and compare it to a normal relationship or occurance.
4. Silly Skvode, they were on a break...
05/05/2003 From: therealshapeshifter
I think the box of pictures tells us that Tess had been preparing for the mind
warp. And then later, when Tess mindwarps both agents at the same time to go to
Hondo, and in the same ep (Destiny I think?) says that sometimes it's easier to
mindwarp than to get someone to see something that's "right in from of HER" (emphasis
added), I personally think the audience is being told that Max didn't really kiss
Tess in the rain, but that she mindwarped both Max & Liz. Why else do it where
Liz could see?
6. No mind-warps allowed trss & s1r 8)
05/05/2003 From: Skovde
Therealshapeshifter and season1rulez, I am a dreamer, but I try to be objective
in my analysis. Yes, the majority of dreamers want to erase Tess in some fashion.
The unfortunate tool, the eraser, is her mind-warp. As an ability without bounds,
it wreaks havoc with the storyline...it just rinses away all those retch inducing
scenes involving Max and Tess...convenient for most dreamers 8) I understand the
point of view, the desire to nullify Max and Tess...but *I don't think it's accurate.*
What did Nasedo say to Max? something like: Know the difference between what you
want to be true and what really is true. I don't think Tess's mind-warping is
affecting the podsters at this time...I don't think she is manipulating the dreams
between Michael and Isabel, so I assume that these are just surfacing memories/programs
as Tess has stated; similar to Max when he gave baby Zan a "memory". I think Tess
and Nasedo were under the impression that she and Max would just 'click', that
there was no need to warp anyone at this time. The memories that are stirring
within Max are his *own hidden memories* of the moment he left Tess in the pod
chamber, these images are coming from within Max, not from Tess. I also believe
that he actually kissed her in the rain, it was probably the result of his 'dormant'
alienness recognizing his past love. This is one reason why I do feel sympathy
for Tess. If Tess were inclined to warp people, why wouldn't she go all out...she
could have really shaken things up. I think her mind-warping of the podsters became
active only after Max in the City...when it was decided that she would be responsible
for writing Colin Hanks off the show.
7. 05/05/2003 From: season1rulez
it WAS extremely convient, Skovde that her vehicle "broke down" at that EXACT
moment...and, like SS pointed out, that Liz was watching. The arguement that it
was a mindwarp isn't so unlikely. Besides...I think you're just into TRAGEDY...like
Romeo and Juliet! =D The writers did a terrible job with the mindwarping ability,
the whole way through. The way it was so exhastive at times...and always inconsistent,
with this or that fact changing everytime, etc. So much about it is unexplainable,
and never the same. Plus, the fact that the audience was led to believe that would
KNOW when a mindwarp occurred...and later discovered that ANY given scene could
be one, or could HAVE been one...with us being just as unware of it, as the other
characters. Thus, we can all make our arguements...but really, they've left us
with NO way of determing what happened, and what didn't. =( Although, as you pointed
out -- that fact DOES come in quite handy for dreamers! =D
12. 05/06/2003 From: Shiloh
Guess I have to put my 2 cents worth in, huh? :) Season1rulz has hit the nail
on the head - it becomes hard to tell what is and what isn't. But, IMO, this
is the stuff that keeps Roswell mulling about in one's brain until you're almost
crazy!!!! Both sides could easily be right. In watching S1 this time, I'm noticing
things that I never noticed before - even though I've watched each ep like 100
times! One thing that I've really begun to notice is that I can see King Zan
leaking through gentle Max - even this early. There was such a fuss in S2 about
Max' taking control and being abusive. But I've watched him put Michael up against
the wall in S1, basically telling him how it was gonna be, when Michael suggested
he never should've saved Liz. He's grabbed Liz to stop her from turning away
from him - S1 & S2. Just different incidences that, while not as drastic as
in S2, still give me the feeling that the King is deep inside somewhere - hidden
beneath the sensitive Max and ready to surface in desparate situations....which
is what happened.
Perhaps the reason for River Dog's suggestion that Liz must be careful - but also probably the driving force behind the determination and survival of Future Max and Future Liz as they bonded together (I still have a theory that it was possible in Sexual Healing that the "hickey" and extreme desire was actually the passing of the King's Seal - unknown by Max or Liz as they had no idea that he even HAD a seal within him at that time - an uncontrollable passing, based in his alieness, that occurred without him realizing due to the emense flood of emotions he had for Liz - traveling along the bond that had melded between them - basically sealing them together and "branding" (for want of a better term) her as the King's chosen partner. That, once the seal is shared, they are together - even when apart - which would be one big hurdle for Tess to overcome. Just a thought.) Anyway, I digress - as usual!!! :) So...
Yes, it could be unconscience alien memories drawing Max to Tess. Or a mixture of this and mindwarping as Tess realized the strong connection - for whatever reason - between Max & Liz. A very clear case CAN be made for massive mindwarping, though.
Although it's correct that Nesado & Tess may have thought the Zan in Max would "come alive" upon her arrival, they were also aware of M/L's relationship before Tess came on the scene. Pictures had been taken. They had been watched from a distance before they were approached. N/T also knew that the pod squad knew nothing about who they were or where they were from! They didn't approach them like, "Hi! We're your fellow aliens!" They approached as humans, waiting to see the responses and reactions.
Also, Max' "fantasy" in the science room w/Tess did not play as a distant memory - no "feelings and shadows" of them as they used to be. It played in their current form and situation - and not just a distant, unexplainable feeling of attraction & familiarity - but an all out 'get it on' situation! This would indicate that his unconscience mind took these vague & deeply recessed memories and translated them into a current, modern day, grab-fest fantasy - a very VIVID fantasy for recessed memories and emotions never even hinted at before! Especially since he wasn't even consciously aware that he WAS fantizising.
Also, during White Room, even Isabel remarked, "So THAT'S what you've been doing to Max!" or something like that. Tess basically didn't answer.
Also, Tess' lessons in 'memory retrieval' were always suspect to me. It seemed Max' memories - even in Off The Menu - only occurred when Tess was present. No indication that he was also 'remembering' in her absence - a convenient excuse for him to have to keep coming to see her? The only hint that he MAY have had some on his own was at Prom when he told her he remembered them together, but it could've been from the ideas that had already been planted.
Also, Max indicated that he didn't have these feelings/fantasies when he wasn't in the room with Tess, thus the "Keep Max away from Tess" plan was born. Even Iz and Michael's 'visions' of themselves together were offered in more of a current 'what is supposed to be' rather than a vague memory of 'what was'. To me, this points to someone trying to convince the group they were to be together -NOW - today - not repressed & domant memories of what was. Feelings, maybe, but not all the visions and fantasies that came as well. Plus, Max and Is both remarked that their thoughts did not seem to be their own when this occurred - that time was lost - it was disorienting. This can happen with flashbacks & Post Traumatic Stress, but flashbacks do not present in the PRESENT. They present as things happened during the traumatic event or before. Amnesia flashes - the same thing. Amnesics do not get flashes of memory in current form. Even when meeting someone they know they should know, the flashes come in experiences previously had with that person - not a current or future experience!
Also, in 4AAAB, Tess gradually admitted that most of Max' experience with her - at least concerning the baby - had been mindwarp. I think he was quite correct in asking "What else" had been lies - as in "Tess, Lies, and Video Tape". :) Even her announcement to him that his feelings for her weren't a lie was later put into question by her statement to Liz that she KNEW Max had always loved Liz - that she could basically 'see' that it was Liz he was thinking of when they were together. He may have come to believe it was best that he be with 'his own kind' (again, because of things Tess brought about, and ALSO Liz - as she pushed him toward Tess!) - but Tess basically indicated that she knew he never felt the passion for her like he did for Liz - totally a motive to 'nudge' the situation a little in her favor - which didn't work well (remember? Tess was giving up & leaving Roswell in TEOTW) until Liz fully backed away from him after Alex died. And even THEN Tess knew it was still Liz! She was upset that he'd kissed Liz before they went to the Granolith! She told Liz that he'd been thinking of Liz when he was "with" her.
IMO, I think there was a lot of mindwarping going on from the start to try and nudge these hybrids who were unaware of their origins to wake up their alien sides. And, even with the things that might have been real, it would be hard to say if they were natural feelings or feelings brought about by false thoughts and memories. I DO believe that Tess & Nesado were only using this as a tool to begin with. It really "lept the gorge", so to speak, after she & Max returned from NYC. Which ALSO supports my theory that Nesado had nothing to do with "the plan" and that "the plan" didn't even exist until Nicholas planted it in TESS' mind before Max found her in the empty garage! But I won't go there!!! Man! We REALLY need a MOVIE! :)
1. Skovde,heres the mind warp deal Date:
05/13/2003 From: roswellchick0307
Maybe tess is more powerful than we all thought.maybe shecan make people do
what she wants them to do. lets get of the kiss and get on to the alex situation.alex
isnt just going to do something just beacause tess tells him to.she also cant
mind warp for weeks.there being some source of power from enemies doesnt make
any sense either.if they helped her control alex,the result would be,and was,them
finding out about who they were. why would their enemies want that. it could
just possibly lead to them being stronger.if the enemies helped her,it would
only hurt them in the end. so with excluding the possibility of any help,and
mind warp wouldnt have done it.she would have to make the admisistrators belive
he was going.no mind warp could really do that.she couldnt mind warp pictures
of him there or mind warp him to believing he was there for a long time. she
would of had to MAKE him do it. she would have to MAKE him go. like i said,maybe
tess is more developed in her powers than we know or she lets out.maybe she
can make people do it.
4. Entering the "What If's!"
Date: 05/14/2003 From: Shiloh
... By the time she got to Alex, she'd been to New York and, as she told Max,
fought off Nicholas - a very strong "powers of the mind" type of guy, according
to Courtney. NOW she has a PLAN! An urgency. She's gotten stronger - more developed
in her own powers. It's POSSIBLE that she actually TALKED Alex into going to
the University for the summer. That she convinced him it needed to be secret,
but that it was for the safety of the group. That there was a computer there
that could translate the book and he was the only one of the group good enough
w/computers to do it! He could've met Leana there - dated. Posed w/her for a
pic. Nicholas could've been there, too! Even if Tess didn't know it. Pics are
manipulated by computers all the time. Tess could've sent the emails to Liz
& Maria - or Nicholas. From the computer they found in the room with the bomb!
Most of the mindwarping Tess did with Alex COULD have happened after he'd returned
- changing his memories to keep him from telling the others. Believing he HAD
been in Sweden with Leana - continual mindwarping as he began to gain flashes
of something different that confused him - much like Amy did....
7. clarifying a questionable power...
Date: 05/14/2003 From: Skovde
I wrote: "Supposedely, another new power is that she can erase memories and
*replace them with different images*...Maria's mom had this done to her." O.k
I don't think it was ever mentioned that she could replace memories with new
ones...she could only erase away portions of events that had taken place; she
couldn't put phony memories back in...I ask myself why this would be the case
and I have to answer that she would have used this ability much more often,
she could be erasing memories left and right and she could implant phony memories
in Liz to drive her away from Max. This is my reasoning why Tess could not replace
real memories with phony memories. In Kyle, Alex and Maria's mom's cases, she
simply removed/erased their memories so that they'd forget about certain moments.
Maybe this is what Alex really meant to say to her, but didn't know how to say
it, he doesn't know the terminology. When he said there is nothing left to warp,
maybe he was commenting on all the memory-erasing that she had done to him,
his condition might be better explained by Tess' memory erasing rather than
mind-warping...since Alex only ever heard about mind-warp maybe he just called
her memory-erase a mind-warp. If her memory-erase/mind-erase went haywire, it
may have affected his moods, and that might be why he said that there is nothing
left to *erase* (not warp).
8. Shiloh, you theorizing opens up
Date: 05/14/2003 From: Skovde
another explanation about the Tess/Alex/(Nicholas) "translation vacation" It
would explain the need for Tess to mind-erase/memory-erase the events from Alex...maybe
she regularly erased his memories to keep Nicholas/Kivahr/skins from getting
out in the open. The constant memory-erase might be the cause for the finger-tapping
and not the mind-warp...Kyle had memory-erase, Alex had memory-erase Maria's
mom had memory-erase. They had finger-tapping. Everyone in the show lumped her
powers together when they said she mind-warped, but Tess let Max know about
the memory-erase in "Off the Menu" Tess knew the difference between warp and
erase, but did the others? When she was erasing Kyle's memory in "the Departure"
it seemed as if something wasn't right, her memory-erase was malfunctioning
and it was causing side-effects; finger-tapping, and more heavily affecting
Alex and his state of mind. I would say that her memory-erase played a bigger
role in what transpired with Alex. Spelling goof in my previous post "Supposedly
(not -dely)"
11. yes, the eraser did it.
Date: 05/14/2003 From: therealshapeshifter
Skvode, I do believe you have solved the Alex Mind Warp question. It was a Mind
Erasure, not so much Warp. Her abilities to implant thoughts were limited. But
the more crude tool of Mind Eraser was excercised with obsessive ruthlessness.
I suppose her mindwarps depended in part on her ability to erase a memory and
replace it. If she wasn't strong enough, however, to totally replace the erased
area, then the finger tapping occurs, followed shortly by recall of the erased
memory. Now I can sleep at night knowing it is solved. But Shiloh, there will
be no Mythology of Friends weblog inspite of the Roswellisms that appeared in
each episode of Friends during Roswell's season 3. Don't get me started!! LOL!!
13. Skovde
Date: 05/14/2003 From: Shiloh
I think you're right there, about the memory erasing. Although we probably look
at it a little differently. I consider memory erase/mindwarp basically the same
type of power - used in different ways. Kinda like the water, ice, steam idea.
Obviously mindwarping was more than just simple visions like the ones Michael/Iz
had, or Max in the science room. Whittaker consciously looked directly at Max
as he went into that whatever-machine with the bones and believed she was looking
at a closed door on top - Max being there never registered with her. Mindwarp
w/memory erase?? And remember - in the Evans kitchen, Iz said that she lost
time - couldn't remember anything but her vision.
I think it's the "erase" portion of mindwarping or whatever that really messes with people's minds. Not being able to recall certain periods - not knowing what you did and being afraid that anyone could tell you that you were anywhere and did anything and you couldn't prove them right or wrong. Or, if you did believe them, and other people started in on you like you were crazy....you'd get worried! Amy actually had real memories start leaking through - although she wasn't aware of it. Kyle was never aware of it working on him, either, until Maria & Liz brought it out. But Alex......perhaps for some reason vague memories kept rising to the surface. He could have been mind warped that the college girl's name was Leana (Pierce's men waited patiently in the desert for their leader, believing they talked to him, so warping apparently CAN cause people to do some things they wouldn't automatically do - they believe what they see or hear, which would automatically erase some memory of what was real - like the FBI guy's memory of standing at the Valenti home WITHOUT Pierce coming to talk to him!
But Alex apparently had a memory breakthrough. With this theory, it would make sense that he signed the food delivery ticket with computer language as memories of all the computer work he'd been doing was coming through. And all the "Leana's not Leana" things he wrote - possibly during periods of memory leak. Quite possibly, Tess had to "re-zap" him quite often - maybe due to her trying to erase such a long period of time! And she WOULD have to mind warp SOMETHING in it's place! Iz was bothered with just a few moments of time unacounted for! Alex would've been a basket case with 2 or 3 months of time just GONE! Plus, there had to be an explanation for where he was - to the squad & friends, parents, school, etc. He comes back and says "I don't know!" and everyone would be highly alarmed!
I think what we generalize as "mindwarping" is really a lot of different abilties rolled into that one term. They all work together. She even admitted that the fireball seemed to come from an attempt to mindwarp fire for the Skins, but - possibly due to the emotions of the time - it truly erupted in a massive display of power. If that can happen, then she probably had more ability to do MANY different things - even if she didn't know the limit of her abilties herself....