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Topic Subject: The RBI Returns: New Plot Holes, Mythology, and SciFi, oh my! |
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Posted 01-14-2003 09:08 PM by shapeshifter
Greetings die hard members (official or unofficial) of the Roswell Bureau of Investigation. Here's a place to share new observations. For instance, The Pilot begins with
And in Morning After, why did Valenti hide (of all things in the alien files) the key ? A lot of the old FF discussions can be searched in the non-FF affiliated [ 03-14-2003: Message edited Julie Darling ] |
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Posted 01-15-2003 10:33 PM by Nemo
shapeshifter, it's good to see you again. I hope your thread stirs some interest. I'm always happy to hear of more possible connections in the story. Tonight as I rewatched Monsters (which I must have seen at least 5 times before), there was still at least one detail I hadn't noticed before. (I may post about it after I get a chance to inspect it better.) With the new reruns I'm getting a better look, since my VCR picture quality is sadly limited. About why the sheriff saved the key -- well, keys seem inherently sort of mysterious and intriguing. Later we see that the sheriff had also hidden the file with Atherton's picture (by taping it to the underside of a desk drawer or something). |
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Posted 01-15-2003 11:58 PM by Reggie
Hi, all! Just when you thought it was safe to turn on the TV... |
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Posted 01-16-2003 12:04 AM by shapeshifter
Nemo, hi, were those really the sheriff's pictures? With Liz's uniform eventually turning up with Morgan Fairchild's henchmen, it's hard to keep track. In Monsters, interesting premonition of Max seeing himself in the alien doll with the mannikin doctor about to take it apart 'piece by piece.' And Liz's famous pajamas (purchased and preserved by Momo) are viewed in Morning After: IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavender/poitier/92/0ddedf10.jpg --foreshadowing Liz's sacrifice in TEOTW. |
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Posted 01-16-2003 12:11 AM by ~*Nikki*~
I've seen Roswell all seasons numerous times and I never noticed that a different actor plays Mr Evans in " The Morning After " than John Dough. Nikki |
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Posted 01-16-2003 01:05 AM by Nemo
Hi Reggie, good to see you again too. (And please pass our greetings along to Palomino when you can.) Greetings to you too, Nikki. |
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Posted 01-16-2003 06:09 PM by ~*Nikki*~
Greetings Nemo! Nikki |
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Posted 01-16-2003 09:57 PM by shapeshifter
Reggie, hi! You must have posted the same time I did. What were you doing up so late? quote:Actually, it's "John Doe" who plays Liz's dad. I can't think offhand who are the 2 actors that played Mr. Evans. But it's interesting that he was replaced rather than killed off--which is what happened to all other actors that left the show...well, that it, their characters were killed off...you know what I mean. Today they showed Leaving Normal. I have always puzzled over the selection of the song, "The Weight," that Mr. Parker is singing when Grandma Claudia arrives. I some new theories on its significance.
Take a load for free, Take a load off Fanny, And you put the weight Right on me. Or, it could be Liz taking the load of Max's secret on herself with the secret then being a weight on her. Also, when Max did whatever he did to the dying GC, he seemed to take on a weight too. This alien power show, btw, is a bit of a premonition of what happened in Panacea. OR, it might just be that John Doe, the actor, who is also a musician, and is about my age, might just have been singing that song because it's a great song to sing. Okay, Nemo, I even edited it so it would make some sense; hopefully it will 'stimulate some conversation.' [ 01-16-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Posted 01-17-2003 01:03 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: I think Nemo is right (keys seem inherently sort of mysterious and intriguing). Also, if I understand your question correctly, one reason might be that a key is small and easily concealed, whereas the file and/or its contents are larger and more difficult to hide. In the file, there are photos of Atherton’s corpse. I think the file is perhaps a duplicate morgue file. So, if Valenti wanted to recreate the file (after the FBI agents took files), he could possibly contact the morgue’s old records. Perhaps, too, Valenti might consider that his dad, with his interest in aliens, might have some old files with the same information. In addition, perhaps Valenti felt familiar enough with the contents of the file to have no need to hide them (the information would be safe in his head). And I think Valenti hid a photo of Atherton on the underside of the drawer, as Nemo stated. The key, on the other hand, would be not be replaceable, if the FBI were to take it. Valenti had an inkling the FBI might take things at later time, since Agent Hart showed up at the police station and offered no explanation for his presence. Also, when the Sheriff phoned the FBI about Hart’s visit, the person at the FBI refused to give him (the sheriff) information and hung up on him. I think Valenti hid the key to keep the FBI from taking the key, if, as happened, the FBI took records from his office. I enjoy reading everything that’s posted! So many things I never noticed or thought about! [ 01-17-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-17-2003 05:34 PM by Misha
Ok, here's something that has *always* bugged me. In Pilot, Liz hides her uniform in her backpack, which she gets to school. I always assumed that she did that to confront Max Hey, there's a bullet hole in here, mind to explain it?, if she hadn't found the "other" evidence. Still, Sheriff manages to get his hands on the backpack and therefore on the dress. How? who knows, who cares, but, did Liz ever tell Max that she lost the dress?? Sighs... Oh, by the way, I used to be a lurk CHADD, and I always love to read about reasons and explanations Count me in in here Misha |
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Posted 01-17-2003 06:44 PM by SweetJo
Hey! I don't have alot of time but I wanted to let you all know that I am really happy that the RBIs are back! I don't post that often on here but I always loved to lurk and read all the wonderful insights on Liz's importance to the alien mythology! Thanks for bringing the thread back to life. Lots of Love, |
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Posted 01-17-2003 08:09 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Misha and SweetJo! From Misha quote: I don’t think Liz needed to confront Max about being shot. Liz knew she had been shot. She knew she had been healed. I think Liz put the uniform in her backpack, so her mom, who does laundry, would not find the uniform and ask questions. I think Liz did not think ahead, about what she would do next with the uniform. That’s why I think her uniform remained in the backpack, when she went to school.
quote: The Sheriff was suspicious about the incident in the café, the day the bullet was fired. He became more suspicious, when Kyle told him about the silver handprint he saw on Liz the evening he took her home. While we don’t know how the sheriff came to possess the backpack and the uniform, I think we can guess that the sheriff had something to do with the appropriation of the backpack containing the uniform. I think the Sheriff was searching for information. If the uniform, or something else important, had not been in the backpack, I think the sheriff would have returned the backpack to the school, with no one the wiser about what he had done. Since the sheriff discovers the uniform (which he keeps), he wants more information from Liz. The sheriff asks Liz’s dad, if it is ok to question Liz. The Sheriff sends Deputy Blackwood to take Liz to the station. The deputy picks up Liz shortly after Liz realizes her backpack is missing, and before Liz has any chance to talk to Max. At the station, the sheriff shows Liz a photo of a corpse with a silver handprint on it. Afterward, Liz confronts Max about things. She confronts him, because she is worried about a silver handprint being associated with a dead person. Max readily answers all her questions. Then Liz says, “Kyle saw the handprint on my stomach, and Valenti found my waitress uniform with the bullet hole in it. He just asked me if you were in the café during the shooting. Max, he suspects you.” So, yes, Liz told Max the Sheriff found her uniform.
[ 01-17-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-17-2003 08:58 PM by Misha
Darn it! I should have known better that dialogue!! yeah, yeah, silly me... It was a question long before asked for a friend, and I never paid enough attention while watching the Pilot, I guess. Thanks Still, I didn't know sheriff had interrogated Liz at the station, I had always assumed it had been at school. But then again, I don't live in the US... Ah, the wonder of having guys like us Let me think for a while on other question, and I'll be back Misha |
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Posted 01-17-2003 10:58 PM by shapeshifter
Citrus and Vine, I really enjoyed reading your explanations, especially about the key. You definitely get to wear the Roswell Apologist's hat : And Misha, it's always okay to ask questions. I still blush to remember how I insisted that River Dog had told Liz to be sure Max could trust her instead of the other way around. Fortunately I got straightened out on the old SciFi threads. Hey, SweetJo! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On today's ep, Missing, I caught a couple of lines I hadn't noticed previously:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And:
[ 01-17-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 01-18-2003 04:06 AM by Ladybehr
Hi, Citrus and Vine! Another great thread, right? See you! |
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Posted 01-18-2003 07:27 PM by The Real Momo
hi, shapeshifter! While this is not a visible observation, I thought it worth mentioning. I just acquired the script "The Morning After" yesterday and read the script which describes the Evans as a two-parent working family. Okay, yes, that we knew. Diane Evans tells us that much later in the year, after the house is robbed. She says that she just got home from work. And "The Morning After" does describe Philip Evans as a "lawyer", but who knew that who knew that Ma Evans was, *gasp*, A SCIENTIST! Now doesn't that put a new spin on it! Scientist for whom? Maybe we should be looking at Mom Evans a little more closely. I'm just getting ready to check my freshly rerecorded tapes and will have more observations later. [ 01-18-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 01-18-2003 08:48 PM by shapeshifter
Momo, Mrs. Evans is a scientist? Please post the script line, because I'm almost sure it never made it to the screen. And, coincidentally, it was while watching Missing that I finally thought about how odd it is that Liz's mom doesn't EVER work in the Cafe. At least not that I recall. Anyone else? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And about this line from Missing:
quote:Here's a picture of the Sidney Opera House. It looks to me like a cubist geodesic dome: IMAGE: www.hd.org/Damon/photos/places-and-sights/_more2000/_more12/AUTOSCALED15pc-Australia-New-South-Wales-Sydney-Opera-House-1-BG.JPG [ 01-19-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 01-19-2003 10:03 AM by The Real Momo
shapeshifter, here is the reference. I'm including dialogue to set the scene. DIANE & PHILIP (O.S): We're here!/Hello? Max and Isabel have no idea what he's talking about. MAX: Agents? Isabel rolls her eyes, exactly what she doesn't want to see Max doing. But before she can say anything, the EVANS come in with a flourish. DIANE and PHILIP (late 40's), both coming from work. They both have careers, he a lawyer, she a scientist, loving but not doting parents. This comes from a pink full copy of the script dated 7/21/99. [ 01-19-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 01-19-2003 10:39 AM by The Real Momo
I really didn't find it strange that Mrs. Parker works "outside" of the cafe. It is possible that Nancy Parker already had a career by the time of her marriage to Jeff Parker and didn't give it up. It's not particularly uncommon for the wives of restauranteers to have "other" jobs to make ends meet -- maybe the infamous cheese factory. Diversity of income increases chances of financial stability. I don't think there was ever a mention of where Liz's mom worked but the only work we've ever actually seen Nancy Parker do (that I can remember) in the Crashdown was laundry. Short observations in "The Pilot": This I believe was mentioned elsewhere: It's fitting that Liz is serving a "Sigourney Weaver" and a "Will Smith" burger in the beginning of the episode then at the end of the episode. Liz is wearing a Ripley uniform from "Alien Resurrection" and Max is dressed like "Men in Black". When Liz seeks out Max at school to show him the handprint, she bumps into another student: This student is wearing a mask and an alien-looking jacket and Liz grabs a piece of the jacket to push him away. I never noticed this before but he is the only one with a mask and physically is the only one who makes contact with her. I don't recall this ever being mentioned. Now, to the uniform: What ever happened to the apron? If you recall, Liz is holding a bloodied apron over the bullet hole in the apron when her father comes in, but, by the time Liz returns to her room, the apron is gone! Where did the apron go? Since that point, we never see the apron again. Who's got it? Liz only puts the uniform in the bookbag, not the apron. So the apron remained downstairs for anyone to pick up. Now, we know that Maria picked up the order book because she has it in "The Morning After" when she confronts Liz in the school bathroom. Does that mean Maria also has the apron? Was it put in the laundry for Nancy Parker to clean? Thrown away? Did Larry & Jennifer take it? Or did Valenti? This is missing evidence! CHADS: Well, the most famous we know is the handprint is consistently wrong from the beginning. It's a right handprint instead of a left, but how many people noticed that the blood disappeared on Liz's bra? That the uniform in her bedroom is not the same uniform she wore when shot (look at the blood patterns). That Max had no blood on his left hand after he healed Liz, and therefore, no blood was on the keys Max throws to Michael nor was there blood on the Crashdown door when Max exits pushing the door with his left hand? And, of course, the missing apron. When the bookbag goes missing, Valenti says someone turned it in. To whom? The school? Or to Valenti? The most logical explanation is that the bag was turned into the school and when school officials opened it up and saw the bloodied uniform in order to discover the owner, they called the sheriff advising him of their discovery. He, in turn, calls Jeff Parker, to talk to Liz. The second possibility is that Liz never lost her bag -- that it was taken from her locker by a suspicous Valenti. Apologies if any of these were mentioned on the old threads. Short observation in "The Morning After" In Liz's locker, on the door near the bottom, is the word " B Witched", an interesting aside in view of the S3 episode, "I Married An Alien", a take-off of "Bewitched," the series and the fact, that Liz does marry an alien. [ 01-19-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 01-19-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 01-19-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 01-19-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 01-19-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 01-19-2003 11:42 AM by Abducted Bookworm
Dianne Evans is a scientist... I never knew that. I've read fic where she is also a lawyer (I think she may be a lawyer in some of my fic, for that matter). I never realized she was a scientist... that's interesting. You'd think they could have shown that... Liz meeting Max's parents, asking his mom about something, for example.
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Posted 01-19-2003 04:04 PM by Ladybehr
Well, I´m surprised too... I mean I know that Diane a job, but I thought it had been some charity work or something like that. It would be interesting to work with this fact in fanfics. Great idea, AlexEvans! |
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Posted 01-19-2003 05:10 PM by shapeshifter
Momo, Thanks for posting that. Since those are unspoken words, we can't assume that TPTB decided to 'cut' them. But they never do give us a clue (on screen) as to what Mrs. Evans or Mrs. Parker do (besides laundry, and in Mrs. P's case, cooking). How very Ozzie and Harriet of them. In the original books, Mrs. P. cooked for the Cafe, & Mrs. E. was a lawyer working with Mr. E. They had law offices in 2 towns which gave the Evans kids plenty of opportunity to skulk around unnoticed. |
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Posted 01-19-2003 05:50 PM by The Real Momo
Yeah, I never pegged Mrs. Evans for a scientist. Interesting it was never pursued. Makes me wonder where the writers were going to take us before TPTB stepped in. I didn't know that Nancy Parker cooked at the cafe and we never see her doing that. There have always been males in the kitchen cooking, including Jeff Parker. There are only a couple of the Metz books I've seen so I have no background info there. |
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Posted 01-20-2003 10:17 PM by The Real Momo
Okay, I think we have to assume Nancy Parker worked at The Crashdown. Liz "does" make reference to her parents (plural) running the Crashdown to the delivery boy in "Cry Your Name". And now, back to "285 South". When the gang enters the geodesic dome, we assume no one has been there in a while. But could that be a wrong assumption? If no one had been there in a while, wouldn't all the plants have died? Somebody had to be going to the dome on a regular basis. Nasedo? [ 01-20-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 01-20-2003 10:45 PM by Zero
Hi everyone!! It is so great to see you are still around! I don't have much to offer anymore, but I will always have fond memories of the fun we had mything together!! Season 1 was (is) the best! Have fun rewatching! Zero |
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Posted 01-21-2003 12:25 AM by Nemo
Zero, good to see you again. Momo, I'm glad to hear from you too. It was some of your screencaps I used to show a possible explanation of that reversed handprint business. Thanks very much for those. (see this page in shapeshifter's archive) About the houseplants -- at first I too wondered who was watering them. But on rewatching tonight, it looked as if that part of the house had an earthen floor, so maybe the plants could find groundwater. (Not sure how dry it is in that part of Texas.) And for light there was that big skylight.... [ 01-21-2003: Message edited Nemo ] |
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Posted 01-21-2003 10:54 AM by The Real Momo
Nemo, always nice to hear from you. I thought about that too except for one thing. Some of the plants may or may not be hanging plants (hard to tell); therefore, no water source. If all the plants had been on the ground or if the roof was damaged (which it wasn't), then yes, nature takes its course ... water and light are available. But without water, hanging plants would have died and they sure looked pretty healthy to me. Then again there is the problem of being pot-bound. Growing plants need to be transplanted periodically or the roots will die from overcrowding. The floor does appear to be earthern, but very hard -- not easy for roots to travel. I think these plants would have had a very hard time surviving from 1959 without assistance, don't you? [ 01-21-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 01-21-2003 10:19 PM by shapeshifter
Yay! Zero! Momo & Nemo: About the hanging plants? I saw the indoor trees, but I'll have to rewind to see the plants. I think I did see them, but forgave them because the plot was moving along nicely back then in the days of Continuity. Robyn mentions in her book, Crash Into Me, that the times of day in 285 South are all skewed. It's several hours to Marathon from Roswell. It's dark when Liz says, "What are we waiting for?" When they get there it's very bright and sunny. They manage to get back to Roswell before school in the morning. Ah yes, poetic license. Something I hadn't ever noticed before is when they arrive at the Atherton dome, they don't drive up close to it, but park back far enough to allow a nice full-dome camera shot from the car. Okay, poetic license again. BUT, there's a house between the jeep and the dome. A very nice house. Next to an abandoned dome? I think I never noticed it before because it's a dramatic moment. But this time it was the first thing I saw when I turned on the TV when I got home from work. Today I saw nearly all of River Dog. IMNSHO, Season one had a great story going until they brought in Tess. I think it could have worked, I just didn't ever care for the whole Kings and Clones story. I felt kind of like Jessie when he freaked about the story. |
Posted 01-22-2003 04:19 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote:
quote:
No containers are shown, so the concern for plants becoming root bound does not apply. Abutments (places edges come together) are prone to leak. The presence of vegetation within the structure shows that the roof has not been repaired. The foliage emphasizes the dome’s state of disrepair and the dome’s disuse. The fact that the plants grow untended shows there are leaks along the edges of the dome.
[ 01-22-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-22-2003 04:48 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Atherton disappeared in 1959. The episode is set in 1999. With a lapse of 40 years, there would be time for Atherton to be declared dead and his property sold to a new owner (Or Atherton may not have ever owned the dome and its property, in which case the establishment of death would not affect property ownership.) One reason the dome might be close to a nicer house is that the dome was used for storage of building supplies or was used as living space, while the house was being built. Also, and perhaps a more important consideration, is that water lines, (or a well) and other utilities might already be in (or near) the dome, so situating the new home close to the water and utilities would save substantially on building costs (it's expensive to run new lines any distance.) I like the continuity in Roswell! I think the stories in Roswell are imaginative, interesting, innovative, and intriguing! I like Season One, including Tess! I enjoy the Dupes, too!
[ 01-22-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-22-2003 11:59 AM by The Real Momo
quote: But was there any evidence that it did leak? I don't recall seeing any visible water damage to suggest that. Did you? I still think there is something wrong about the plants ... too green, too clean, too pruned, too perfect, etc. I will have to go back and look. |
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Posted 01-22-2003 04:05 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi The Real Momo!
quote: The foliage is a bright shade of green, in contrast to some of the plants outside. Different species of plants have different colors. The dome affords protection from some of the harsher elements (like wind and direct sunlight) that are outside the dome. The dome also eases temperature variations. The dome may also shelter the foliage from insect and animal damage. Sources of leaks in domes and elsewhere are frequently not obvious. In this case, we can observe the numerous abutments in the structure and realize that (without maintenance and repair) they provide a reasonable source of leaks in the dome.
quote: The fact that plants seemingly grow untended may be evidence of water leaks. It is unnecessary to show “water damage” to suggest water leakage. Structures need to be maintained to prevent leaks. The older the structure, the greater the likelihood of leaks developing. Most roofs, including domes need maintenance or replacement or they leak. Some shingle roofs, for example, are currently guaranteed for 30 years. However, with high winds, hail, or other events, leaks can develop much sooner. The source of the leaks is not always obvious. In this case, there might be a visible source of leakage, but the camera does not focus on every portion of the structure. There might also be visible water damage, but again, the camera does not focus on the area surrounding the plant. Or there might be no evidence of water damage, if the water is absorbed into the earthern floor without damaging anything else. We know that dome featured on Atherton’s book jacket was in existence in 1955 (the year the book came out), so the dome is at least 45 years old. The interior of the dome seems to lack maintenance. Foliage seems to grow untended. I think it is reasonable to understand that plants can grow untended inside an old untended structure. If, however, you believe the dome to be impervious to water leaks (as you seem to believe water damage is necessary to infer water leakage), then you can perhaps use the information Nemo provided in his explanation (at the top of this page). Nemo points out that the floor in that portion of the structure is earthen and groundwater could provide nourishment for the plant. When plants thrive in old, unused structures, it is reasonable to infer that the things necessary for them to grow are there in abundance. On the other hand, if you still believe the plant is tended by human hand, then it is possible to guess that a resident in the nearby home maintains the plant.
[ 01-22-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-22-2003 07:58 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Oooo, this is a bit of a problem for me, an old former hippy circa the early 70's who occasionally dwelled in domes. I did a quick Internet search, and it seems Buckminster Fuller's domes didn't really catch on until after the 1967 Expo in Montreal. Hmmm...methinks the writers were mere youngsters who thought domes were always around. btw, I reuploaded silverhandprint.com to thesmudge.com/shapeshifter/shp/shp since learning that poor Chance's blu5 server suffered major damage and won't be up for awhile. |
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Posted 01-22-2003 08:26 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hey shapeshifter! Thanks for the new link. Sorry to hear about Blu5’s problems. Buckminster Fuller invented the geodesic dome in the late 1940’s So a dome that existed in 1955 is reasonable. I think possibly the writers write from experience. I think the best writing comes from familiarity with the subject. I like Roswell very much and enjoy the richness of experiences the writers bring to the episodes!
[ 01-22-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-23-2003 12:07 PM by shapeshifter
Yesterday's ep, Blood Brothers, demonstrated a lot of continuity, both short term and long. The title has a bit of a Native American flavor (even if sterotypical), letting us know that the ball has not been dropped for that storyline (Michael will soon revisit the reservation). And Alex's role is a foreshadowing of his tragic demise in Season 2 when he gives the ultimate sacrifice. This ep also reminds me of our musings on the symbolism of the horse--the critter chosen to cause Max's accident--of course, they were ditching school... quote: [ 01-23-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 01-26-2003 04:20 PM by Qfanny
Howdy everyone! I just can't believe Diane Evans is a scientist, or a lawyer either. (The Roswell High books says she's a lawyer - it was not a fanfic.) I am posting on this thread to say hello to some old friends. I don't have cable nor the internet anymore. You can thank the public library for making this post possible. The thing about Roswell I will always remember is my set visit. I suppose it's okay to talk about it now. Before I was told to keep quiet about it, although, I did spill to a few of you on this thread even. I was drinking a cup of coffee when Jo (Nancy Parker) walked straight for me and asked me where I got it. I was standing right next to John Doe and didn't even realize it, when my friend pointed it out. I was at the outdoor filming of Alex's funeral, so apart from Colin (who I met later that same year), everyone was there. I mean everyone!!! (Except Brody) Although some of them were hard to recognize. Jason Behr was sick that day and looked totally different than what I had expected. (Haha! I expected to be told at any moment to leave.) I didn't talk with anyone unless you count the cookie fight I had with Jason Peck (Hanson) I had that evening. It was truly a magical moment and I can't say enough how impressed and moved I was to be allowed to watch the important filiming of CYN. I get gooseboumps watching CYN thinking how I was the first fan to see Valenti at the crash site. (Funny story there is that Sadler pants got all wet right before when they sprayed the streets with water. He swore, but it was hilirious!) Nor will I forget Shiri nearly knocking me over, yelling, "If I leave right know I won't be late to spinning class." I thought she had first said, 'spitting' class. She had just got done with her filming at the wrecking junk yard. Well, having not offered any insights at all to the RBIs, I really just wanted to say hi and let you know what I find most memorible. See you later - [ 01-26-2003: Message edited Qfanny ] |
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Posted 01-26-2003 09:13 PM by shapeshifter
Qfanny! So good to hear from you! I remember talking to you after your set visit. It was so exciting. Do you still have your rose from Alex's casket? |
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Posted 01-27-2003 04:10 PM by The Real Momo
The Importance of Windmills
What I can't recall (even doing a cursory seach) is whether the following ideas were ever brought up. So I apologize if this ground was already laid. What has been presented is that Max had a windmill in his room in Season 1 and that Liz had a painting of a windmill in her room in Season 1. And what brings up the windmills again is "The Balance" in which the painting in Liz's room is seen quite clearly. But what IS its importance? Is it as suggested, a representation of duality or the merging of a common link between Max and Liz, a phallic symbol from the garden, the power to harness the wind (as UFOs gliding on air or conquering time-space) or is it something more? As a symbol, the windmill draws from Christian symbolism in the form of the regligious form of the swastika. The swastika, in this case, has a positive reference, and as such, is used in the art of Russian egg decorating.
quote: So could these actually be a symbol of things to come for Max and Liz as later envisioned by Madame Vivian and her Tarot reading in EOTW? That they would ultimately find good fortune and happiness? Certainly, "Graduation" hints at this. Also keep in mind that Liz has been associated with leaves, the most prominent being the leaf which adorns her top in "Heatwave" at the soap factory. Then again, it may have further importance. First, it is a reference to the original crash site. Secondly, it has some bearing to the study of UFO abduction cases ... yes, for real. If anyone watched the SciFi special on the real Roswell Crash, reference was made to a windmill; specifically that the crash took place near an old windmill. In that investigation, the remains of an old windmill was actually found at a site that is being examined by archaeologists today. I'd like to make reference to the following 35-page report, "CLINICAL DISCREPANCIES BETWEEN EXPECTED AND OBSERVED DATA IN PATIENTS REPORTING UFO ABDUCTIONS: IMPLICATIONS FOR TREATMENT" located at http://www.icehouse.net/osiris/abduct.ufo.html which refers to observation testimony a patient reporting a UFO abduction. It states as follows:
quote: But how does that apply to the fictional Roswell? Besides an acknowledgement to the alleged "historical" crash, it could mean a couple of things: 1. That Max and Liz do each share a common destiny with a common link ... the crash itself. 2. That the Destiny Book links not only the pod squad, but Max and Liz. If you recall, much of what was contained in the Destiny Book refered to "alien abduction". Who made these observations? Well, if we go back to S1, there is only one major player with a background in psychology -- Kathleen Topolsky, who refers to a college thesis she wrote on the importance in oral history in psychology. Could Topolsky have really been an alien plant to bridge the gap between humans and aliens and the author of The Destiny Book? Remember, Topolsky IS the person who helps push Max and Liz together and it was deliberate. Or was she just a human with "uncommon" knowledge? If psychology was her major, then Ms. Topolsky could have easily come across "A Psychological Evaluation of UFO Abductions" (1990). Or maybe, just maybe, Topolsky knew who wrote the Destiny Book. In any case, could Ms. Topolsky have been recruited for her "possible" knowledge regarding UFO abductees? 3: As we have suggested in the past, was the Parker family part of the UFO abduction phenom with the windmill as a "subconcious" reminder of the experience? Or is it just "the windmills of our minds"? Let the speculation continue! [ 01-27-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 01-27-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
Posted 01-28-2003 12:53 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Momo, in editing your post, you deleted the info about the windmills seen at the original crash site. Could you please repost that? I don't recall seeing it elsewhere, and I think it is the whole point! Also, the allies page from shp shows Alex with a windmill in "Sweden," when he was more or less 'abducted' by Tess. |
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Posted 01-28-2003 02:50 PM by The Real Momo
The testimony of Anderson is only one of several references to the windmill at the original crash site. As noted in the above post: Gerald Anderson reputedly is an eyewitness of the original crash, identifying that an old wooden windmill was located near the crash site. The link to the report is noted above for the complete report. Abstracted reference to windmill based on Anderson's sketches is noted below. I did not correct the spelling of the report.
quote:-- from a Springfield, MO, newspaper article dated Dec. 9, 1990. In the recently aired SciFi special with Bryant Gumbal as host, reference was again made to the windmill. I have not transcribed it yet, but I will dig out the video and transcribe the reference. However, it might not be until the weekend that I will have time to do it. |
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Posted 01-28-2003 09:00 PM by The Real Momo
shapeshifter: Here is another reference to windmills in regards to the crash site(s). It comes from Kevin D. Randle"s "The Roswell Encyclopedia under "Crash Sites"
quote: There is also another reference to windmills in "Beyond Roswell by Hesseman and Mantle which refers to the Brazels and Proctor looking for possible damage to windmills, etc. after the thunderstorm. |
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Posted 01-29-2003 01:49 PM by Vihmakass
Yay! (Vihmakass is dancing like crazy) Shapeshifter, thank you for message, theread...for everything! ...now i must go beginning and read posts. And once more with feelings - Yay! |
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Posted 01-29-2003 02:43 PM by Hard-Core GG Fan
Wow. Ma Evans, a scientist? Very interesting. It's nice seeing the faces (LOL) of people I used to talk to. And momo, where did u get the roswell scripts? i've only seen the pilot offered to buy but i have also seen destiny in pdf. Gaby [ 01-29-2003: Message edited Ms. Emma Brody aka Hard-Core GG Fan ] |
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Posted 01-30-2003 12:15 AM by shapeshifter
Vihmakass, I am so happy to see you here! Momo, Thank you for posting the Windmill stuff. Today I got home in time to just watch the last half hour (but I taped all) of The Convention. I had to get Digital Cable to get the SciFi channel, and it is Sooo much more clear. One of the corpses with a silver handprint in Hubble's photographs look like it is the guy who played Dan Lubetkin from the state police board. BTW, Valenti calls him "an old war horse" when he shows up in TSAP. Could this be a shout out to the RBIers and our Trojan Horse theory? Of course, the theory was that Liz was a Trojan horse, but Lubetikin certainly plays that role too, only for the other side of the battle. And thanks to Nemo, almost all of the Season 1 Science Fiction discussions have been recovered and added to the Archives. [ 01-30-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 01-30-2003 04:39 PM by The Real Momo
Ms. Emma: I got my scripts on e-Bay.Ms. Emma shapeshifter: Your welcome. |
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Posted 01-30-2003 09:59 PM by shapeshifter
today on Blind Date, during a Liz & Max scene, the words in the closed captioning were to a different song than they were playing. Momo, I love the pics on your site. |
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Posted 01-31-2003 12:59 PM by The Real Momo
Thanks, shapeshifter. My sister and I thank you. "Blind Date" , besides concentrating on the love/connection story of Max/Liz (The "V" constellation -- conjunction of Mars (Ares) and Venus, also is the first foreshadowing of the orb. During Max and Liz's kiss, the cave map -- in particular, a crude drawing of "the fallen radio tower". I'll be posting a screen cap later on this one.( I didn't get the capture for this, so I have to go back and get it.) The cave map is revealed (by Michael) to be a map of Roswell with each section representing a different location in the Roswell area. The sections are broken into five section - one section represented by the placement of each healing stone. But what if The "V" , which not only serves as the first "official" designation of the Antarian royal seal, serves as a blueprint for finding the "Royal Four" for the aliens AND a treasure map for the pod squad. Each healing stone represents one alien object that pieces together their history. 1. The sky map for finding the Royal Four: We know that when "Mars and Venus" come together in a particular formation it forms the "V" constellation. Perhaps, the constellation is also a road map for Antarians to find the "Royal Four". If the "V" constellation is seen from space, does it lead Antarians to Roswell (to the spot at Frazier Woods where the pod squad find the orb signal burned in the grass, near the cave)? Once there, Antarians could find the cave, go inside, interpret the cave map, and discover that the Royal Seal "V" on the map becomes an arrow and points them directly to the Pod Chamber, the tip of the arrow (the apex of the "V". 2. The treasure map Each healing stone (in the "V" of the cave map) represents one alien object that pieces together their history. The Pod Chamber is clearly represented by the jagged drawing at the apex. Clearly marked. The fallen radio tower, also marked on the cave map, reveals the location of the orbs. Notice that the orb signal is next to the fallen tower drawing. Each symbol now appears to be associated with a particular location and is marked on the cave map. So "Blind Date" now links with "Sexual Healing" as a completion of one phase of the "treasure quest" and helps confirm a standard to deciphering the map. 1. Orb signal, a communications device = fallen radio tower The only alien object which does not fit into the map is the pendant. That was found outside in Marathon, TX. Unless we can make a case that Liz is the intended owner of the pendant. While Isabel, does find the pendant, she does hand it over to Max and Max in turn gives it to Liz, not once, but twice. So can we assume that the fifth, unidentified symbol (which appears to planets circling around a sun) represent our planetary system. I don't think so, because it doesn't represent a Roswellian location. So it leads us to two locations - The observatory and the Crashdown. The observatory makes sense because it is a means of watching the stars. But there is no object associated with the observatory. The Crashdown also makes sense because it possibly fits the pattern. 5. Pendant = Liz = Crashdown. Does that make sense? Or are we still missing something?
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Posted 01-31-2003 03:28 PM by Hard-Core GG Fan
quote: Thanx, Momo. And my name is Gaby. Gaby |
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Posted 01-31-2003 05:16 PM by Vihmakass
Hi Good posts, it's like in good old days, oeh. Maybe im silly but i have thoughts that in first half of season 1 they (writers) really planted some clues and foreshadowed things. They like us then has hope. Shootingscripts? In ss must be seen more that, than it make to screen...very,very interesting how writers really saw this story...hmmm. btw. burning this mark in front libary ant that other in woods....they littlebit like thous cropcirkles...what are one big mystery. keep posting! Hugs to all! Raincat - one who can't spell without mistakes. |
Posted 01-31-2003 08:42 PM by shapeshifter
quote:I'm not sure to which symbol this refers, even reading: 3). THE RADIO TOWER. On the map, there is the symbol for the orb which Liz and Max find in “Sexual Healing”. To the right of it, is what APPEARS to be strange writing. WRONG! What this is a stylized DRAWING of the abandoned radio tower as Liz and Max found it in “Sexual Healing”! At the bottom of the radio tower, Max and Liz find the orb. Notice the dot at the end of the horizontal tower. I'm comparing it to Nemo's and Palomino's theories about the cave map. Do you mean this symbol: Today was Independence Day. There was a ton of foreshadowing in it. I should have taken notes. LOL |
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Posted 02-01-2003 02:11 PM by The Real Momo
No, shapeshifter, that is not the symbol I was refering to. That symbol could possibly refer to the observatory or The Crashdown. I'm leaning towards the Crashdown. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/1e13a87e0.jpg That image definitely represents a solar system, but we still need to translate that to a Roswellian location. The Crashdown represents the best candidate based on images from Leaving Normal which shows an aerial view of the Crashdown logo as shown below: IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/14dda87e0.jpg Symbolically, this has the appearance of a solar system with the lights as circling planets. The radio tower is represented by this symbol below from the Balance: [ 02-01-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 02-01-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 02-01-2003 03:09 PM by The Real Momo
Other identifiers that confirm that the cave map is a treasure map occur in Blind Date and Into the Woods. First, let's look at Blind Date. When Michael and Isabel are outside the Roswell Public Library, Michael explains that the map features Roswell locations. He points to one symbol and says, this is "right here" (meaning the library.) Now, in Into the Woods. we have the orb signal burned in the ground: So the map can be confirmed as Roswellian locations with each location attached to something of importance to the pod squad. |
Posted 02-01-2003 11:29 PM by shapeshifter
quote: Wow, it IMAGE: www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/4solsys.jpg really does look like the observatory to me now that you've posted that aerial view of it. I'd have to lean that way now. So, that's the symbol you saw as the radio tower! I'm so used to thinking about it as pods that it will be hard to accept. [ 02-01-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-02-2003 03:42 PM by The Real Momo
shapeshifter, the picture I posted is an aerial view of the Crashdown, not the observatory. Slip of the keyboard? I discarded the pods for the radio tower since the pods were already represented on the map. I had to be looking for a location, not an object and the radio tower fit the bill. [ 02-02-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 02-02-2003 06:22 PM by shapeshifter
Okay, just so we're on the same page. Is this: IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/1e13a87e0.jpg The crashdown or the observatory? I assumed that it was the observatory, and that you were thinking it was possibly represented by this symbol: IMAGE: ulink.net/plum/Roswell/stuff/solarsys.gif Since baby Zan was ultimately conceived there, perhaps it was a place of significance. Maybe a good place for mindwarping--both astronomers and spaceboys? [ 02-02-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-03-2003 04:47 PM by Vihmakass
...this is compleatly random thouth: 1. In libary, when Tess takes this Destiny book - in the wall, like lock there is - silverhandprint. 2. In podchamber, before they come in or out there is lock - silverhandprint. * Now. Shapeshifter Nasedo makes some silverhandprints to lead FBI on Liz...bc some bodies has silverhandprints on earlier pic. he knows FBI is iterested and.....in this way he can give to this silverhandprint-symbol some confusing meaning. (i know writers didnt and so on but...) * 3. After healing on Liz appears - silverhandprint and this is one weird handprint. First - it is on wrong place, second Max used other hand for healing. From 1. and 2. we can see silverhandprints activate when aliens toutch them - they come visible. Does Liz (who is/lives in Crashdown cafe) is loced till healing and after that is freed bc of this she has this weird feeling ...powered, compleatly changed...bc she was. Ofcourse on their way to hell they have hospidal and kids....all with silverhandprints but this ...was just bad writing (IMO)...and not understanding what was built up in their own show by ...oh, nevermind sry. if i...but...i allways was silly and with bad writing skils and ... |
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Posted 02-03-2003 05:58 PM by shapeshifter
Vihmakass, You are still coming up with great ideas! The silver handprint as a key! We never do see a print on Kyle, and he doesn't talk about it. We don't know if River Dog had one when Michael healed him. We don't see one when Michael heals himself in WDAMYK. We don't see one when Max heals Michael in ID, or when Tess heals Max in one of the first episodes in Season 2. |
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Posted 02-03-2003 07:41 PM by Vihmakass
...to ad some... I still have feeling that writers from s1 has some vision where this show must go bc of this they planted some clues and foreshadovings in earlier eps. to be explored later like it is normal in good shows. And i have feeling that they planned explane to us why this bodies on pic's have them. Now we can only make specs on this item. Sometimes i wish i had great writing skills in english...that i was able write fic...but...ehhh. [ 02-03-2003: Message edited Vihmakass ] |
Posted 02-04-2003 08:59 PM by Qfanny
quote: Yes, yes - I still have it. But just to clarify, I don't think that the rose was actually thrown onto Alex's casket. There were tons of flowers and what I got was an extra one that didn't get used. Strange enough, these roses had the longest stems I have ever seen. It wouldn't have surprised me if they were three feet long or more. I know I had to break my stem off because of the excessive length. I have it in a vase on my coffee table, but it doesn't really look all that impressive now, but the history behind it is something extra special to me. Have fun rewatching! |
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Posted 02-06-2003 01:11 AM by shapeshifter
Qfanny, that rose is sooo symbolic of Roswell! Don't get me started. Okay, thanks to Nemo, I have uploaded in the Archives the Were you paying attention? thread. Here's a sample: quote:This was posted just after the end of Season one. I read later that Katims had actually wanted Tess to get pregnant then, but being unspoiled, had no clue til the end of season 2. |
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Posted 02-06-2003 04:28 PM by Misha
Hey guys! So, rambling about Sexual Healing at the PODs thread, I got intrigue by an idea: I've been thinking a lot of why Liz had the flashes since Max wasn't even around when the Orb was burried. Do you think maybe Nacedo/Langley did the just a memory trick on Max and that's why Liz was actually seeing memories in Max's head? Of course, it could also be an unconscious way of Liz's powers surfacing... but then again, these are both points of s3, and probably s1 writers just thought it was a nice plot back then, but still... Taking the story as a whole, these theories might work Oh, and NICE work on the map thing! It was really impressive Misha |
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Posted 02-07-2003 10:56 PM by Nemo
Notice the handles on the two soda fountains at the cafe. GraceKel pointed out long ago that these handles seemed significant. Not remembering her detailed observations, I have been trying to notice these handles throughout the s1 reruns now playing on Sci Fi. Since the pilot, every time I have noticed these two handles (though I may have missed a few times) they have been one-and-one: one ordinary black handle and one imitation alien head. Tonight, as Nacedo/Max enters, they are both alien heads. (Just as Nasedo, unlike Max, is said to have no human side at all.) I wonder whether this was done as a symbolic clue to the deception. IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S1/gal119/119_093.jpg [MttM, Crashdown.com] [ 02-08-2003: Message edited Nemo ] |
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Posted 02-07-2003 11:59 PM by Citrus and Vine
Nemo! That is so cool! You notice so many amazing details! Thank you! I like that—the two Maxes and the two aliens! One thing I noticed from the episode Max to the Max that showed up later was the Mile Marker 67 sign. The road sign later appears in the room Tess occupies at the Valenti home in the episode The Departure, before everything is revealed. |
Posted 02-08-2003 12:13 AM by healersbabe
quote: OR, it could be a handprint about to drop from the upper right hand side of the clip to overlap the heart & mend it Goodness gracious it's nice to see you people back with did you say NEW chads??!? ~ RD |
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Posted 02-08-2003 03:24 PM by Qfanny
Although I was deeply convinced that the writers/producers designed a mythology, today I don't think that they really had planned any of it. The theories we have invented and discussed are incredible and to think that it happened by chance, seemed unlikely. However, Jason Katims, the creator of Season One was also the creator of Season Three? How is it possible that the quality be so different when the same man was in charge? Therefore, Season One, for all it's loveliness and theories was a fluke. And my first clue that the writers and producers had no idea what they were creating came when I asked Kevin Kelly Brown about the shooters in the Crashdown Cafe. "We have to get rid of her" was an adlib. It wasn't even scripted. And when I tried to explain how important this off-hand remark was to Liz's Importance to Alien Mythology, he calmly patted my shoulder and told me not to worry about it. The truth is, the fans of Roswell have proven themselves better than the writers and producers, and towards the end, the actors. The magic of the show was truly magic! See you later, [ 02-08-2003: Message edited Qfanny ] |
Posted 02-08-2003 11:41 PM by shapeshifter
quote: But of course! In TLV, when Tess mindwarps Max, she doesn't do her closed-eyes, "constipated" look. And in Toy House Max tells his mom that Isabel knew she was home as soon as she got to the Evans' house but that Max cried every night. But in an earlier ep he tells Liz that Izzy cried every night for Michael. Anyone know for sure if these are "new" or even "previously unearthed CHADs"? Qfanny, glad you're stopping by! [ 02-08-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Posted 02-09-2003 11:26 AM by Hard-Core GG Fan
quote: Vihmakass- This is great stuff! I love it. Your spelling errors weren't too big for me to not understand. Gaby |
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Posted 02-10-2003 03:03 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hi shapeshifter
quote: In Tess, Lies, and Videotape, Tess’ face is not shown as she mindwarps Max seated at the café counter. We see what Max imagines. Then we see a shot of Tess asking if there is something caught in her teeth, a reference to the fact that Max appears to be staring at her. When Max kisses Liz in the back room of the café, we do not see Tess’ face, until Max looks through the door, after Max stops imagining kissing Tess. In the classroom scene, we again see only what Max imagines. We see Max walk forward in a trance to be Tess’ lab partner. As Max walks, the music begins playing. We see Max imagining looking at Tess. We see Max imagining kissing Tess and imagining the reactions of those around him. We do not see Tess’ face as she mindwarps Max. The mindwarp has already begun, as Max walks forward with the music playing. On the fourth occasion, Tess’ face, as she mindwarps Liz and Max simultaneously, is again not shown. We see only that Max and Liz believe in the episode that Max is kissing Tess in the rain. On all four occasions as Tess mindwarps people in Tess, Lies, and Videotape, Tess’ face is not shown. The audience does not see Tess’ face as she mindwarps Liz and Max. The audience is not informed how Tess’ face looks during mindwarping. The audience sees only what Max and Liz imagine in the episode.
quote:
LIZ: So, how did you guys end up getting separated?
“MAX: I remember my first few nights in our house so well. I hated it so much. For Isabel it was different. She saw you and dad, and from the very first moment, she knew she was home. But I would lie in my bed all night and cry.” In Toy House, Max is talking to his mother about his feelings about being with the Evans. Max evidently had some problems adjusting to being with the Evans. Isabel, on the other hand, loved being with the Evans. Isabel cried every night wondering where Michael was. Isabel cried for a different reason from what Max cried. In The Balance, Max talks about Isabel and her feelings about Michael. In Toy House, Max talks about his feelings about being with the Evans. Although both descriptions included talk about crying, each describes different people, different reasons for crying, and different amounts of time for the crying. I think it is understandable that both Max and Isabel cried when they first lived with the Evans. I think Mrs. Evans understood that Isabel’s crying (if she knew about it) was not because of hating it there, as Max did. Since the conversation with his mother is about Max and his crying because he hated being there, Max does not mention Isabel’s crying on that occasion, as Isabel cried for a different reason. Also, it’s possible that Max’s mom did not know about Isabel’s crying. In any case, Max is describing what he was feeling about being in the Evans’ home, in contrast to what Isabel felt about the Evans. (Isabel knew from the very first moment she saw the Evans that she was home. Isabel cried for the loss of Michael, not because she disliked being in the Evans home.) Again, in each of the two episodes, Max is emphasizing different points. On the first occasion, Max discusses with Liz how Isabel felt about being separated from Michael. He says she cried every night, wondering where Michael was. On the second occasion, Max discusses with his mother his initial feelings about being with the Evans. He says he hated it so that he would lie in bed all night for the first few days and cry.
[ 02-11-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 02-10-2003 05:51 PM by shapeshifter
But is there anyother time when Tess is mindwarping and we don't see closed eyes? |
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Posted 02-10-2003 10:34 PM by Citrus and Vine
Yes, there are other times Tess mindwarps, and we don’t see closed eyes. For example, we also don’t see Tess mindwarping Michael or Isabel in Four Square. Isabel believes that someone is making her have the dreams she is having. Isabel says, “Whatever Tess did when she was here yesterday, the sugar cubes—I think she made me have that dream.” It seems likely that Tess caused both Michael and Isabel to visualize what they saw. In the episode Max to the Max, Tess and Max walk together and talk about Nasedo and dreams and how aliens mate. Max sees himself kissing Tess. Neither the audience nor Max sees Tess close her eyes. In the episode We Are Family, Agent Duff sees Kyle’s report card. No one sees Tess close her eyes before Agent Duff sees something that isn’t there. Then the audience and Kyle see Kyle’s report card instead of the blank paper, as Kyle leaves his dad’s office. The audience sees Tess’ eyes closed and then open, as the report card becomes a blank sheet again. We then know that Tess mindwarped Kyle into seeing a report card. However, the audience, Agent Duff, and Kyle do not see Tess mindwarp Agent Duff, but both Kyle and the audience are able to infer that Tess caused Agent Duff to see Kyle’s report card instead of a blank sheet of paper. In the episode Baby It’s You, Max apparently interacts with his and Tess’ unborn baby and discovers the baby is dying. The audience does not see Tess’ eyes close. Max is concentrating on the baby. It is not until approximately a year later that the audience and Max learn that the baby’s problems were not real but were actually a mindwarp by Tess. So, yes, there are occasions in addition to the times in the episode Tess, Lies, and Videotape, in which the audience is not shown Tess’ eyes closed as she mindwarps.
[ 02-11-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 02-12-2003 01:59 PM by pod_squad
quote:
Yet the windmill is also a symbol for something that cannot stand alone. In other words, it has no function as a structure on its own. It is wholly dependent on the wind for its usefulness; yet when it harnasses the wind, it is able to perform its task. I think this applies to each and every character we've seen--there is an interdependency among them that seems intended, ie aliens can't function without humans, visa versa, knowledge is useless without action, etc. Specifically relating to L/M, life didn't seem to start for them until they found each other--yet another indication of their "destiny" or being bound to each other. Just as an aside: this is the idea behind the silly "You are the wind beneath my wings" song. The windmill also represents sweeping idealism (as in Cervantes' quixotic windmills, Orwell's political windmills, among others). And I think it's safe to say that Liz and Max are both very idealistic characters, acting for the common good (thus, her sacrifice in the pod chamber and, then again,in EOTW---& Max's struggle in "Ask Not" and his sacrifice for "destiny," or he and Tess). On the surface, Max and Liz are presented as totally the opposite--she is logical, and he is pragmatic; yet ultimately, we know they are both very idealistic, naively so sometimes. Perhaps using the paintings, pics, etc. reinforces that. The horse is another really interesting symbol--on the one hand, being a symbol of male domination (and thus, one way the Special Unit is able to get to Max--in the hospital when he's hurt), while on the other also symbolizing great adventure--of the negative, as well as, the positive variety. And it's interesting that, going back to what one of you said about Liz as the embodiment of Venus, she would, in a sense, have dominion over horses (just as Venus has dominion over passion, the senses, and romantic love), because Liz is the one great weakness for Max but also the beginning of the many adventures in his life (some wonderful, some horrific). [ 02-12-2003: Message edited pod_squad ] |
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Posted 02-12-2003 09:03 PM by Nemo
There is more discussion of observations and interpretations on the "Crash Into Me" book-discussion thread on Ros2 (in case there is anyone who hasn't already noticed): http://www.forums4fans.com/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=12&t=002101&p= (I've been posting comments over there if they relate to the book, and here otherwise.) |
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Posted 02-13-2003 07:51 PM by shapeshifter
Rewatching Ask Not-- Still confused after all these years:
WHITAKER: Parker. LIZ: Hi. WHITAKER: Are there any other messages? Did Mr. Pierce call? LIZ: No. WHITAKER: Look at me...waiting for my boyfriend to call. Which one of us is in high school? (Congresswoman Whitaker enters her room. Liz takes a moment to come up with a reason why Pierce won't be stopping by anymore) LIZ: Actually, Congresswoman...Agent Pierce isn't coming back...ever. WHITAKER: What are you talking about? You make it sound like he's dead. LIZ: No, no, no. Um...uh...you see, he left this message, a voicemail, saying that he was going away and he wasn't coming back ever and that it was over between the two of you. WHITAKER: I want to hear it. LIZ: Um...I erased it. It was really harsh and cold and...you know, trust me, you just...you didn't want to hear it. WHITAKER: I can make those decisions for myself, Parker. I'm a big girl. LIZ: I'm sorry. WHITAKER: Voicemail. When she says "Voicemail," it seems (post-Surprise), that she is scoffing at Liz for thinking that she (CW) would believe the dead had left voicemail. Later, in the Crashdown transcript:
WHITAKER: Tess. |
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Posted 02-13-2003 11:12 PM by Nemo
My impression is that when CW attacked Nasedo, he was in the form of Ed Harding, just as when we saw him shortly before the attack, alarmed at discovering the discarded skin, or a little later when he showed up at Max's window, mortally wounded. I think she killed him because she wanted Nasedo out of the way of her plans. I don't think she ever connected him with Pierce, and may not have known that he could shapeshift. (Did any of the skins seem to know about shapeshifters?) In speaking with the sheriff, CW shows that she noticed an unwelcome and abrupt change in Pierce's behavior after his trip to Roswell; she seemed perplexed by this and seemed to be looking for a reason, but I don't think she ever figured out that Pierce had been impersonated. I think CW had grown genuinely fond of Pierce, and was trying to understand the post-Roswell changes in him in order to patch things up. My take on her reaction to the supposed final breakup (as reported to her by Liz) was not that she doubted Liz's word, but that it was hard to get used to the idea that such a longstanding relationship had apparently broken off so completely and had ended in only a voice-mail message. When this purported reality sank in, she concentrated again on her main mission, searching for the podsters and the granolith. [ 02-13-2003: Message edited Nemo ] |
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Posted 02-16-2003 02:21 PM by Reggie
I'm lurking, intermittantly. Think of me as an undercover RBI agent! The Real Momo: In the trash, no doubt. Liz couldn't discard her uniform: they'd have to be accounted for, and they're personal. Mrs. E would know that a Liz uniform was missing, and ask. Aprons are one-size-fits-all, and anyone could have worn it; and one missing from a common pile might never be noticed (or at least traced back to Liz). And now, back to "285 South". When the gang enters the geodesic dome, we assume no one has been there in a while. But could that be a wrong assumption? If no one had been there in a while, wouldn't all the plants have died? Somebody had to be going to the dome on a regular basis. Nasedo? Or they could be plastic plants? If you are an author, you might not be around for weeks (book tours, research, etc.) Plastic plants would look good, but require much less care. (Dusting occasionally?) As a symbol, the windmill draws from Christian symbolism in the form of the regligious form of the swastika. The swastika, in this case, has a positive reference, and as such, is used in the art of Russian egg decorating. I always thought it was American Indian... but it could be both. Note that the Nazi version of the swastika is the mirror image of the "good" one; and so, logicly, a sign of evil and a token of bad luck. And Qfanny - Thania St. John and David Nutter both left at the end of S1. If you review their old interviews, vs. those of Jason Katims, you'll see that they had the interesting ideas. JK had the studio contract to develop a show. Once TstJ and DN left, JK was floundering; and the show suffered accordingly. Look at the current Smallville, which DN has a hand in - so many Roswell plot elements have surfaced. |
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Posted 02-16-2003 08:43 PM by Citrus and Vine
I enjoy the contributions Thania St John, David Nutter, and all the other writers, directors, actors, and everyone else made to Roswell! I love Jason Katims’ ideas and stories for Roswell, as well as the ideas and stories of other people. Roswell features my favorite stories! When Roswell first aired, I looked forward with anticipation to each new episode. I am happily enjoying the reruns on SciFi. Thank you Jason Katims and everyone who made ROSWELL!!!
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Posted 02-17-2003 08:43 PM by Algieba
The mention of Smallville and similarities with Roswell brings up a question I've been wondering about. In Superman, Clark Kent doesn't find out much about his past, his planet, his purpose until he goes away to the North Pole ice palace thing to study from those preprogramed light sticks. Max, Michael and Isabel are in much the same position while they're in high school and still teenagers. I'm wondering if there was something similar planned for them when they reached a certain age or period in their lives. It would make sense for their parents to have sent along some kind of educational device. Nasedo, backs off from setting off the orbs not just because he's afraid of who it might lead to them but also because as Max says, his job is just to protect them. The four aliens make the orbs work by themselves. In trying to think of what else they had available to them, I come up with the book Tess pulled out of the library wall and the healing stones. Were the healing stones the same stones that Michael fit into the cave drawing of the map of their star system? If so, there were five of them. When Max tried to heal Liz in Ch...ch...changes, he only used four. When River Dog wanted them to heal Michael he handed Alex, Isabel, Max and Maria a stone. That's four. I don't see him give Liz one but she does step up to the design on the cave floor so I'm thinking there must have been one for her. When he offers her the water to drink she steps back and drops out of the group. Are there five stones or four? When Max fails to heal Liz and the four stones explode, are there any left? If so, couldn't the healing stones have more powers than just healing? If the healing stones and the stones that Michael put in the star system map are different, do the star system stones appear again anywhere? |
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Posted 02-17-2003 10:57 PM by Algieba
I just watched the end of Balance again. When Michael comes to, he tells them he's learned something. He says to give him the rocks. Liz hands him hers first. You can't see the stone in her hand but you see her reach out to him and him take something from her. Then the other four hand him their stones. He walks directly to the cave wall map and places each stone on a spot with a design. The spots begin to glow and form the V pattern of what we learn is their star system. So, the healing stones and the map stones are one and the same. There are five of them. I still only see four stones around Liz when Max tries to heal her in Changes. Have I missed something? Does one of the stones get lost or stolen between Balance and Changes? I went to the Archives site to try to research it but wow! I'll be busy for a long time reading that treasure trove of information. Does anyone know the answer to my questions in the meantime? |
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Posted 02-18-2003 12:51 PM by shapeshifter
Algeiba, About the Balance ep, do you suppose that Liz appearing to hand Michael a stone was a CHAD, and that's why they cut out her actually holding it? Because Liz "stepped back" according to River Dog's direction because she was too afraid. |
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Posted 02-18-2003 05:41 PM by Misha
There were definitely five stones in The Balance. What I can not recall is River Dog giving one to Liz. Since we are not entirely sure if Liz actually went into Michael's vision or if it was just Max thinking of Liz, maybe River Dog did give it to her while the others were in there. Maybe then Liz did actually wento into Michael's vision with a stone of her own. That way we can explain why Liz handed it to Michael so he could put them in the cave map later on. Now, I haven't seen if there were four or five in CCC, but I bet Max used the five of them, even if we didn't get to see them all. Misha |
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Posted 02-18-2003 05:57 PM by shapeshifter
In Summer of 47 when Emilie says she doesn't get the curls by "magic" it's kind of a cute reference to alien powers. Also, once again she plays the woman that gets the guy in trouble & is chasing after him when he wants another. About the pictures of young Hal with his girlfriend--how would these be used for blackmail? She was just a loose woman. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ About EOTW: quote:When I heard this line again, it seems that Max would have to know that Liz is just letting him go because she loves him. [ 02-18-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-19-2003 01:26 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hi shapeshifter!
quote: Richie knew Hal. Richie knew that Hal might not immediately agree to resign, even being offered an honorable discharge. Richie only showed Hal the photos when Hal refused Richie's offer. Hal has seriously damaged his career in the military. Hal was already on suspension from flying. Taking the confidential files and leaking it to the press are grounds for a dishonorable discharge. Richie has been friends with Hal. Richie is offering Hal a good deal, when he offers Hal a resignation with an honorable discharge. Hal doesn't want to take it. Hal plans to stay in the military. Hal says, "You will have to drag me off this base." Hal is willing to fight to stay in the military. Hal knows there has been a cover-up about the crash. Richie shows Hal the photos, knowing the kind of person Hal is. We know that Hal has a tender heart. Initially, Hal was in favor of "blasting whatever dropped those things to kingdom come". Hal changed his mind, when he actually saw the extraterrestials and their protectiveness toward the young. Hal took a big risk to distract the MP's, so the two aliens could escape with the 8 fetuses. Hal agrees to sign the letter of resignation because Hal wants to protect Rosemary, his girlfriend. We know that Hal had already confronted the Colonel about the military searching her place. Hal knows Rosemary sees other men. Hal still cares enough about her to resign, rather than have her embarrassed publicly.
quote:
I agree with you, though, that for a while, Max holds onto the hope that Liz loves him, and that they can be together. Max is initially downcast as he talks to Maria after Liz gave that speech. We see Future Max’s hand begin to fade, but then regain form, as Max continues to hope he can be with Liz. It takes Liz pretending to be intimate with Kyle right in front of Max’s eyes to finally convince Max of the futility of trying to be with Liz. It no longer matters whether Liz may love Max. Liz’s actions are speaking louder than any words. Max loses hope of being with Liz, and Future Max disappears. [ 02-19-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 02-19-2003 01:05 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Oh! I get it now. Yeah, I forgot about chivalry, and protecting a lady's honor. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Okay, Citrus & Vine, I've got another one for you: [ 02-19-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-21-2003 11:26 PM by Citrus and Vine
Yep! I think the family show angle fits! Otherwise, maybe the clothes were just advanced readiness, for when the Skins would enter the husks. Clothes could also help in rapid identification, as to who goes in which husk. (The postal carrier is complete with cap!) The forms would already be dressed, and there wouldn't be many naked people running around looking for clothes. It might be that the Skins want to be dressed and ready to go, immediately following their change! |
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Posted 02-22-2003 12:30 AM by shapeshifter
In Meet the Dupes, I noticed for the first time that...
[ 02-22-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-22-2003 12:36 AM by Citrus and Vine
Cool, shapeshifter! Just wanted to pass on this information from another board, posted by thanette. I think it might be interesting in the mythology of Roswell! quote:
[ 02-22-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 02-23-2003 09:39 PM by Nemo
I have that Antar recording too -- it once was a favorite. I don't have any new observations ready to post, but the RBI's may find this amusing: Yesterday with my old car I ran the usual errand to fetch a pizza for Saturday brunch, and when I got back, my wife and son presented me with a red Jetta. |
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Posted 02-23-2003 10:17 PM by shapeshifter
Very cool, Nemo! And I'm sure it was very intentional! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Since, as Nemo mentioned, nothing much is going on here right now, I thought I'd drag over some stuff from blu5 were quite a bit of EOTW mything has been going on for the past few days, such as this from Momo about "ZiL" or backwards "Liz" in the book: quote: And, also from Momo, something really special--storyboards that she acquired for Morning After! They are so wonderful. Here's a sample: [ 02-23-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-24-2003 01:00 AM by Citrus and Vine
Great storyboards, shapeshifter! What a lot of interesting work went into making the show! The speculation on language of the book and the meanings of things is intriguing, too! Nemo, is this what you mean? IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/1/285sth/285sth059.jpg |
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Posted 02-24-2003 11:17 AM by Nemo
That's the Jetta. (Mine is a little older, '88 instead of '92, and has the antenna in a different place, so I probably won't add the alien-head bauble. I'll try to post a picture later if I can get one.) |
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Posted 02-24-2003 11:53 AM by Citrus and Vine
Woo Hoo! Excellent!!! A dream come true! |
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Posted 02-24-2003 04:47 PM by Misha
Ok guys, I've been thinking and thinking the whole map thing, and your assumption that the "solar system" sign is in fact the Observatory. But that would mean that the Destiny Book was actually predicting things, and it has always stroken me as something that say how things "should" be and not how they were going to be. Anyways, could the symbol be a date instead of a place?? It sorts of have the V shape on it, and the dot with the circle around it could mean Venus approaching the constelation. Sort of saying that when the time is right, the four of them will find each other and come to terms to their destinies. Or something like that. Besides, I'm so not going to think that my wallpaper is the infamous observatory no freaking way... Misha |
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Posted 03-01-2003 12:22 AM by shapeshifter
Tonight Disturbing Behavior aired. My fav line:
And I don't recall any closure on their dealing with Grant's body. |
Posted 03-01-2003 04:03 PM by Qfanny
quote:
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Posted 03-01-2003 04:06 PM by Qfanny
quote: You know, I was actually thinking about this the other day. I'll have to rewatch the episodes to be sure, but didn't Valenti did get his job back for a short while? Although I am not convinced that Duff really did anything to help him. Whatever became of the lawsuit against Valenti as well? |
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Posted 03-01-2003 07:10 PM by Nemo
Here's a link to a picture of the Jetta that my wife bought for me while I was away from home for a few minutes last Saturday. (She bought it from a neighbor, my son having arranged the deal; that's how they were able to get the car home before I got back.) [ 03-01-2003: Message edited Nemo ] |
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Posted 03-01-2003 08:04 PM by Citrus and Vine
That's BEAUTIFUL, Nemo! Really beautiful! It's in such good shape! Thank you! |
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Posted 03-02-2003 01:55 PM by The Real Momo
Reggie, rroy about the late reply: Liz would not need to account for her uniform since her parents owned it. It's also possible that, as an employee, that Liz may have purchased the uniform (some restaurants do not furnish uniforms but force employees to buy them) and again, would not need to account for her uniform. Interest in Liz's uniform doesn't take place until after Valenti finds it in her bag. Valenti, as curious as he is, doesn't even think about the apron. Jennifer and Larry, as curious as they are, snooping around looking for bullet holes, don't even think about snooping around for Liz's bloodied uniform or apron. Realistically, that brings us to Maria, who confronts Liz with the order book. The order book is kept in a pocket of the apron. That probably means Maria had or has possession of the apron at some time. What did she do with it? Keep it? Give it back to Liz? Was it trashed, then stolen? Does the FBI still have it? Was it at Meta-Chem? Oh, the possibilities! It's just another one of those small CHADS. The plants still bother me. They certainly don't seem plastic and after 40 years, they are just too perfect. While it is true that plants have different shades of green, plants also shed leaves as they die off, get overgrown when not pruned, etc. What it says to me is that someone was there after Atherton. I'm thinking what a perfect place for Nasedo to hang out. Atherton was a "John Doe" (amazingly), so if Nasedo had to flee Roswell as Riverdog did in 1959, maybe it's possible he went to Marathon, TX. He would have known where Atherton lived and it might explain how the pendant wound up in Marathon. The info about the swastika comes from a symbol book I have on early Christian symbols. I suppose it's possible that Native Americans also have a similar counterpart. [ 03-02-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 03-02-2003 03:08 PM by The Real Momo
Back to the Venus Connection: While there have been many references to symbols surrounding Liz to the Venus Connection (such as the horse), has anyone in the past made the connection of seashells specifically to the Roman goddess, Venus? If they haven't, perhaps now is the time ... because it's soo important to Liz. Venus, besides being the goddess of love and battle, is also associated with rebirth. I just had this "duh" moment after watching a show last night in which Venus was mentioned in connection with "seashells". And of course, alarm bells went off in my head as I said, "DUUHH!". Isn't Ms. Parker's room filled with seashells? (Where is that screencap when I need it? . I think it was "Sexual Healing".) Venus, in paintings, is often depicted as rising on a half clam shell. The shell is also a symbol of rebirth and regeneration and renewal. Is that another symbol referring to Liz's rebirth/regeneration? Or perhaps a reference to her rising from the dead? or maybe reincarnation? It certainly seems to fit the universal themes of birth, death, rebirth and regeneration which swirls around Roswell, doesn't it? _____________________________________________ Misha: Four healing stones are used in "Changes" which leaves one healing stone unaccounted for. See screencaps below: IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/millennium/smiles/224/2e06a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/millennium/smiles/224/2e0aa87e0.jpg [ 03-02-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 03-02-2003 05:21 PM by Algieba
Hi, The Real Momo. Thanks for those screencaps of the healing stones. When I asked that question on Feb. 17 about five stones, I had watched Changes and had seen only four. I couldn't prove it though, so now, thanks to you, it is very obvious there are only four in Changes. So, where is the fifth stone and what powers does it have? Since the show didn't address this, it's open to speculation. |
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Posted 03-02-2003 08:07 PM by The Real Momo
You can just call me Momo for short. While the fifth stone was never really addressed, I believe Max said he read The Destiny Book (translation) to find out if there was anything regarding Liz's change. I suppose that is why he only used four -- that such a medical procedure did not require five, but four. but I really haven't spent time on that question. What is interesting to me is that Max looked to the Destiny Book about Liz's change at all. What did he expect to find? And speaking of the Destiny Book, I thought it was interesting that the book changed when Michael became King ... which leads me to yet another question: Does the Destiny Book change with each decision the Pod Squad makes or only when power changes hands? |
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Posted 03-02-2003 08:40 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi, The Real Momo! I think the pendant possibly was given to Atherton. Atherton could have left the pendant in the hiding place himself. I think it is interesting to speculate about places Nasedo may have been. We know he spent time with River Dog. I am greatly puzzled by your comments on the plant in Atherton’s dome. I think you are familiar with plants (you discussed plants becoming root-bound previously, and you talk of falling leaves in your above post). I think you’re aware that plants have basic needs to grow. Possibly you also know that wind and animals disperse plant seeds. Perhaps you know that squirrels, for example, bury seeds, which then grow into plants. (I apologize, if I’m saying things you already know.) Seeds can grow far from the parent plant. The plant growing in the dome could have grown from a seed blown into the dome or from a seed “planted” by an animal. I do not see any evidence of the plant being pruned. Plants that grow on their own follow the shape inherent to them, subject to available light and any other mitigating factors. Like you, I think it is unlikely that the plant is plastic, though it could be. (Without close inspection, some plastic plants look quite realistic. Someone might have placed a plastic plant there recently.) I think the solution of the plant being plastic is a creative solution to your questions. We know that people have been in the dome at some point. Liz says, “Someone has definitely been looking for something here.” So it is possible that people have been in the dome after Atherton died. Also, there is a nearly house. It seems in good condition, so people from the house could have been in the dome more recently than when Atherton lived there. What puzzles me is that your comments seem to indicate that perhaps you have never been in an abandoned structure. Not everyone has. There, plants frequently grow with abandon. I think that is what is really happening in this instance. Otherwise, the people filming would have needed to bring in a plant expressly to include in the scene. I like the plant. To me, the plant increases the feeling that the building has been disused for a long time. However, to you, the plant seems out of place. I wonder if you have never seen plants growing healthily in the oddest of places, such as in the middle of highways, between cracks in the sidewalks, and out of buildings. I wonder what it is about the plant that makes seeing it be so unusual for you. You mention that if the plant were real, leaves would fall. True, leaves would fall. They would fall onto the earthen floor of the dome. Since the camera does not focus on the area under the plant, the viewer cannot see fallen leaves. Perhaps there is some other reason you think the plant is out of place. I think it is wise to trust your instincts. Something about the plant evidently sparks your interest. Except for discussions of the plant, I would have never noticed it. To me, the plant is so much a part of what I would expect to see under those conditions, that I didn’t think twice about it. The plant is in the dome. Either it grew there on its own, or someone brought it in. The director includes the plant in filming the scene. To me, the plant is effective in setting the mood. I think the director (editors, writers, people who film or whoever decided to include the plant) made a good choice by including the plant in the scene. I doubt that anyone went to the effort of bringing a plant to the dome to include it in filming. However, someone could have brought in the plant specially. Even if someone did, the plant is used as part of the scene, with no special focus or comment on its presence. Michael, Max, Maria, Isabel, Liz—none stare at the plant or say anything about it. I enjoy your discussions and pictures! I know almost nothing about Venus, except as a planet. (I have seen pictures of Botticelli’s Birth of Venus with Venus standing on a seashell. Botticelli also did a sculpture of Venus on a shell.) I like the pictures of the symbols in the desert and your discussions of the meaning of the symbols regarding reference points. It is fun to read your ideas about the windmills in the scenes! Talking about windmills also reminds me of other things differently designed windmills can do—grind grain, generate wind power. What do you mean when you say the Destiny Book changed, when Michael became king? I was interested in your comment about the Pilot episode. You said, “In Liz's locker, on the door near the bottom, is the word " B Witched", an interesting aside in view of the S3 episode, "I Married An Alien", a take-off of "Bewitched," the series and the fact, that Liz does marry an alien.” I noticed that inside Liz’s locker in several episodes is a No Whining sign. I think the motto is one of the things that is important to Liz. Thank you for all your discussions and pictures! |
Posted 03-02-2003 09:15 PM by Vihmakass
quote: 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. ok. im still silly and still have bad gramm.,spell...bad me. |
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Posted 03-03-2003 12:30 AM by shapeshifter
Vihmakass, I love the symbolism of the pearl (Liz) growing in the clam shell out of the pain/irritation caused by a grain of sand. And I think by the end of season 3 many fans saw Max as an irritating grain of sand. The fanfiction I like best is Roswell Readers Choice. About the healing stones, I think in Independence Day when Michael takes them out while he is hitchhiking in the truck that he only has 4. Maybe Liz kept hers? Or River Dog? |
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Posted 03-03-2003 12:38 AM by shapeshifter
I'm dragging this post over here from Ros 2 because the Crash Into Me thread seems to be getting wiggy, and I thought it fit better here anyway: quote: |
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Posted 03-03-2003 12:50 AM by The Real Momo
Hi Citrus! I suppose the reason the plants bother me is because I do garden, I have been in abandoned buildings, and I know when plants grow randomly and how they do it. Certain species do retain a basic shape. Plants grow towards the light, etc. Yes, they grow in odd places; trees split rock, etc. To me, these particular plants just look wrong. I suppose it is instinctive feeling. I just quite haven't figured out why they look wrong to me. Of course, unless they are plastic. But, I'm more inclined to believe that a portion of the dome was used as a biosphere and/or greenhouse in which case the plants are probably real and were initially brought in and pollenated with the help of animals and bees that got into the structure. That part is certainly possible because one window is open and there is no screen visible. As far a a film crew bringing in plants, well, yes, they do do that. Film crews do have a greensperson and I personally have seen them bring in plants, paint plants, etc. to create backdrop for particular scenes (in this case, turning a pefectly manicured town green into an overrun, neglected town green). Yes, there is a house nearby ... all the more reason to think that someone has been going back to the dome. The question is who. It is possible that Atherton left the pendant in Marathon, but, in my fantasy, I think it's also possible that Nasedo brought it there himself after he killed Atherton. We know Nasedo gave Atherton the pendant, so if Atherton wore it as a means of identification, then Nasedo could have removed the evidence from his body. We know Nasedo was being chased by someone (Skins or FBI or both) and he needed to get out of town. Laying low at Atherton's is a possibility, especially since Hubble makes a case for Nasedo leaving "carnage across the southwest". Atherton's gives Nasedo a base outside of Roswell yet keeps him close enough to the action (at least temporarily). The Destiny Book: When we first see the Destiny Book, it has the symbol from the library. After Max dies, and Michael picks up the Destiny Book in "Who Died and Made You King?", it has the "V" symbol. I took that to mean that as history changes, then so does the destiny book ... and maybe destiny? Possible? Also, I previously mentioned on the old WB board and maybe blu, that the insideDestiny Book pages appear to be stencils (You can see through the symbols when Isabel flips through the book). Because of this, I thought perhaps the Destiny Book was used in conjunction with another object to decode the cave map or something else we never got to see. Did anybody else get the feeling that the symbols were cut-outs for a reason? Original cover of Destiny Book: Sorry, this second one isn't too good. My sister and I are still working on our "Who Died and Made You King" screencaps. I'll edit this image later. [ 03-03-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 03-03-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 03-03-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 03-03-2003 11:38 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hey Vihmakass! How are you?
quote: Cool observation about shells, pearls, and pain, Vihmakass! I like your idea that love and care can cover something unfamiliar/painful and produce a pearl! Very nice! Thank you!
Hey Momo!
quote: River Dog did not say he (himself) "had to flee Roswell in 1959". River Dog lived on the Mesalika Indian Reservation, not in Roswell. There is no evidence that River Dog left the Reservation. River Dog was there as a child. River Dog was there when Liz asked about the pendant and when Michael was healed. There is no evidence that River Dog "had to flee". Previously, we have discussed the plant in Atherton’s dome. You say the plant looks tended. You say "that someone was there (in the dome) after Atherton." You say, "I'm thinking what a perfect place for Nasedo to hang out. ." However, Nasedo was away from the dome a substantial amount of time over the years. In order to tend a growing plant, Nasedo would need to be in Marathon, Texas on a regular basis. Furthermore, there is no indication that Nasedo was ever in the dome or in Marathon, Texas. Here’s what we know about Nasedo and where he has been over the years. (In addition to knowing that Nasedo was at one point with River Dog, who lives in New Mexico.) Pierce attributed these deaths to Nasedo Hubble showed Valenti photos of people murdered and left with a silver handprint. Referring to what we believe are Nasedo’s killings, Hubble said, “This guy's been leaving carnage all over the Southwest for the past 40 years". Considering the widespread locations of Nasedo’s murders over the years, Nasedo would have been gone from the dome for periods of time. It does not seem that Nasedo could have been around enough to be the person “tending the plants in the dome “. The dome is inhospitable for living. It seems unlikely that Nasedo would drop by on occasions over the years, just to tend a plant (or plants). There is nothing to indicate that Nasedo watered or pruned or tended the foliage in any manner. Again, there is no indication Nasedo was ever in the dome or in Marathon, Texas, the location of the dome. There is no reason to believe that Nasedo was ever there. There is no reason to believe Nasedo tended any plant in the dome. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
quote: Momo, the “cover” of the book Michael holds in Who Died and Made You King is not the cover of the book. The top page (as you show in the second picture) is flipped around to another section of the stack of pages. Loose rings hold the book together. There is no cover, except as one prefers to designate one page as being the cover page. What has happened it that the pages have been flipped, leaving a different page on top. All the pages are of equal thickness. All pages move freely within the rings. Any of the pages can be on top, with the other pages flipped behind in the stack. So the page on top of the book Michael holds is not the “cover”. The composition of the book is unchanged. Only a different page is on top of the stack. Top page of the book, when Tess holds it Top page of the book as Michael lifts it out of the box. The book is turned to the page with the V symbol. Thanks, shapeshifter for posting the information from the archives! (I also read your post on the Roswell 2 Board.) It's fun reading different theories! I love Nemo's thoughts on the silver handprint reversal! [ 03-03-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 03-03-2003 04:27 PM by The Real Momo
Hi, Citrus! I agree that Nasedo probably didn't live at Atherton's on a regular basis because there is too much documentation to support his continual presence at the dome, including the famous Bitter Lake murder of Sheila Hubble in 1970. He did leave a trail of carnage, not only referenced in the episodes but on silverhandprint.com in the Senate Committe Hearings section. However, the dome is somewhere that he could periodically sneak back to for short durations of time. Then again it just could be someone completing unsuspecting who did not realize that Atherton had a secret room below. But it would be fun to think that maybe Nasedo split town after Atherton's murder and went to the dome to either gather incriminating documents/objects (since we know someone had been there after Atherton's death) or left objects there for safety. I'm just turning things on their side to see how they fit. Riverdog, of course, was a boy at the time of Atherton's death and always refered to Atherton as "the man". So Riverdog had no idea who Atherton was until Max tells him. So we know it wasn't Riverdog who went to Atherton's. Valenti Sr. must have been involved with the Atherton death from a criminal investigation. However, apparently there was no documentation found on Atherton, just the key, and Atherton remained a John Doe until 1999-2000. Since Valenti Sr. & Valenti Jr. did not know what the key unlocked, nor of the dome, nor who Atherton was, then the Valentis never went to the dome. Topolski and the FBI are out because they learn about Atherton's dome only by tailing the pod squad in 285 South. Unless I've missed something. That leaves only Nasedo who could have gone to Marathon and searched the dome ... that is, as far as we know and we can make a case based on circumstanstial evidence that Nasedo probably did go to the dome at least once, and perhaps more. We know Nasedo killed Atherton, but not the reason. Max suggests that Atherton was about to expose Nasedo. That would be motive enough for Nasedo to go to Marathon, to find anything that would expose him to the FBI or the Skins. Just a thought. We also have that gap in time when after Tess hatches and Nasedo takes her under his wing. Where were they? Well, maybe Marathon was one of the places they lived. Maybe not. But it does represent one of the intriguing possibilities. The Destiny Book: Yes, it's possible that the page may not have been the cover page. However, this is a page we had not seen ... ever. And when Michael sees it, he, I believe, says something like, "I knew it. I'm king now." It's almost as if he's seeing this page for the first time. If the Antarians had the power to transfer the Royal Seal, I was just posing the question as to whether or not, the possibility exists that the book also reacts in the same manner. That is, when the pod squad make their own decisions, their destiny changes ... as kind of a confirmation of "We choose our own destiny" and how destiny skews in time. Since we already know that Michael was second-in-command and so does Michael, why did he need confirmation? They already had the Destiny Book translation and Max has told Michael he could be "fearless leader" if he died. So is this just a CHAD? Or perhaps it's another sci-fi look at changing history and destiny? [ 03-03-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 03-03-2003 05:01 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Momo! I'm in favor of turning things on their sides and examining them, too! However, I have some questions about what you've said.
quote: What evidence is there that Nasedo was ever in Marathon, Texas or ever in the dome? Bitter Lake is in New Mexico. Bitter Lake is at a distance from Marathon, Texas. True, Nasedo could have gone to Texas, but there is nothing definitive to indicate he went there. He could equally as well have gone elsewhere.
quote: Why would Nasedo go to the dome? The dome's interior is in poor condition. Why would Nasedo maintain plants? I doubt there is any reason for anyone to maintain a plant or a few plants with no particular aesthetic qualities or financial value on a periodic basis in an abandoned dome.
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quote: In the episodes, the audience is not shown all of the pages. It makes sense that the page has been in the book from the beginning. No transformation of any pages is ever shown. We know Michael went to the bank expressly to get the information in the box. Michael returns to his apartment with the box. Michael opens the box. He focuses his attention on the V shape on the page.
Michael sees that the image in the book matches the glowing dots on his chest. The dots are spaced identically. The angle of the V is identical to the angle of the V on his chest. Michael says, “I knew it. I'm in charge.” Michael knew before he looked at the book that the shapes were similar. Michael knew what the shape meant—the shape is the seal of Antar. Looking at the book confirms what Michael knew before he went to the bank or opened the box. That’s why Michael says, “I knew it. I'm in charge.” The book did not change. Michael changed. Michael confirms what he suspected was true. The V shape in the book is identical to the V shape on his chest. Michael is in charge.
[ 03-03-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 03-03-2003 09:23 PM by The Real Momo
Hi, Citrus! I don't think that Nasedo was staying at the dome when Sheila Hubble was killed in 1970. If Nasedo ever lived in Marathon for any length of time, it probably would have been from 1989 (after Tess hatches) and in the house. Of course, there is no hard evidence to support it, just theory supported by very circumstantial evidence. Nasedo's connection to the dome would be just theory. We know that Nasedo was being chased by someone (Skins or FBI) in 1959. We know that Nasedo gives Atherton the pendant. We know Nasedo kills Atherton in 1959 in Roswell. Whether the pendant was on Atherton or not, we'll never know for sure. We can only suppose what may have happened to the pendant after Atherton's death. Whether or not Nasedo kills Atherton because he was about to expose him (or maybe he did - could that be why Nasedo was being chased in 1959?), we also will not know for sure. But prior to Atherton's death, Nasedo and Atherton were friendly (Who knows why.) and information would have been exchanged. There is time for Nasedo to learn about Atherton, where he lives, etc. And somewhere between the lines and gaps of Nasedo's history, there is room, opportunity, and motive in the timeline for Nasedo to have possibly gone to Marathon. And if Nasedo had been living in the cave, then even living in the dome (even just temporarily) is not hard to imagine. As I said, it's not hard fact, but it's something nebulous that we can play with for fun. The Destiny Book is just another case of playing with ideas, concepts of destiny, etc. I was just interested in the "what ifs" there. I haven't really counted the destiny book pages, but I think you can from the closeups of the book. That would be one concrete way of deciding whether or not the book had changed. There's no question that Michael changed. I thought it would be interesting to play with the idea that the Destiny book could be changeable as well ... sort of once you make a decision, then this, this and this consequence results and that Max's death and Michael's changes somehow rewrite history which manifasts in a physical changing of the book. |
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Posted 03-03-2003 09:30 PM by The Real Momo
Forgot to address the plants! Gosh, darn those pesky life forms. Actually, I just thought of a reason for possibily maintaining plants—genetic engineering. I think I read somewhere that animal DNA is sometimes injected into plant DNA. Must check that and how it might apply to alien genetics. Here we go again! |
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Posted 03-03-2003 11:16 PM by shapeshifter
And then there was the tapestry jacket Liz wore with the plant shapes on it. We had quite a good friendly argument going on about that jacket. I was in the camp of those who loved it, but most thought it was a fashion faux pas. But it does resemble the plants in the dome, I think. Okay, I just did a search for "vine" in the archives, and found this from the HTOHL Liz Myth Thread:
Vines on the window: Vines on the gate: Vines on Liz's jacket! Foreshadowing that she has a role in the hybrid process too????...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Okay, HTOHL aired today, and Citrus & Vine, you better screw your Roswell Apologist's hat on really tight for this one. Because, even Isabel, speaking in Season 3, derided the "ridiculous blue jelly fish." And even in this ep when she's telling Valenti about "the queen" on the phone, he says, "The what?!?"
Could Congresswoman Whitaker somehow have commandeered Jellyfish Grant to drag Tess over there? Maybe used telekinesis to cause the car accident? Okay, I think I'm mixing my superheroes now. [ 03-03-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 03-03-2003 11:29 PM by shapeshifter
And one more thing for Nemo, Remember the diamond patterns? In HTOHL Michael is wearing a diamond patterened shirt when he gets shot in the shoulder, very close to the heart. In Season 3 we finally learn that the key to the spaceship is a diamond. |
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Posted 03-04-2003 10:37 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hey shapeshifter! You make me laugh!!! You have such good spirits! Thank you for all your archiving and ideas! I am no apologist—hat or no hat! I love Roswell, unapologetically! I love the way the characters work together and support each other! I love the challenges placed before them and the innovative solutions! My interest in reading and posting comes from a wish to understand what makes Roswell so special. Examining the details and analyzing the overall composition of the episodes—individually and all together—helps me understand more about what I like. The things people notice constantly amazes me! I like the blue jellyfish, and I cheer at its destruction! The world became safe from its potential infestation. You say “When Isabel comes back for her shorter soliloquy with Grants body, the crystals should have been a puddle on the ground next to his body.” Perhaps if you explain more about why you think there should be a puddle on the ground next to his body, we can understand each other sooner. For example, what is it that leads you to believe the crystals should form a puddle on the ground next to Grant’s body? Is it the size of the crystals? Is it the nature of the crystals? Do you think all or some of the crystals should have spilled over onto the ground or leaked through Grant’s body? Likewise, what is it about the blue jellyfish queen that leads you to believe “the jelly fish should have been plastered against the louvers along with everything else that wasn't nailed down in the room. And with no or little air left, it should not have been able to fly around the room”? Since we do not know the nature of the Gandarium, we cannot know how it “should” act. We can talk about jellyfish, but Ganadarium is not really jellyfish or crystals. It does not behave the way jellyfish or crystals of Earth behave. Gandarium is not naturally occurring on Earth. Gandarium is from another world. Let’s consider water. Water has an unusual characteristic. Water, unlike other liquids, is a substance that increases in volume when it changes to a solid state. When frozen, water, as ice, has a greater volume than it has in a liquid state. (Ice takes up more space than water.) Some things do not behave the way similar things behave. We don’t know the composition of Gandarium. We do know it behaves unlike anything on Earth. To me, there is no reason to expect Gandarium “to be plastered against the louvers”. We also do not know how much decrease in air pressure was necessary to produce the Gandarium queen’s reaction and death. There is no qualitative or quantitative measure of what occurred within the room, when Michael used his powers. So, to me, there is no reason to expect that what we see should be different. Already on Earth we have life forms that went against human expectation. Life has been discovered near heat vents in the ocean. Previously life was thought to be unable to exist at such extremely hot temperatures. To me, we have learned over time that seemingly impossible things are possible.
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Posted 03-05-2003 12:05 AM by shapeshifter
quote:Oh, I'm basing it on the behavior of the crystals in the cave immediately after the queen was destroyed. I think it's a total CHAD that the crystals in Grant's chest didn't melt too. And when KH walks into the room, she seems to cover him a little hurriedly. I would love to ask her if she did that because she realized the unmelted crystals were a boo boo. It seems that if covering him was in the script that she would have done it more slowly and dramatically. quote:True, it's possible that the Royal Jelly did not have a mass or density like anything Earthly, and that it would not have been sucked towards the louvres when Michael was vacuuming. But I do think other things should have been sucked up against the vents, and if the Big Jelly was supposed to be impervious to this particular physical law, it would have been more "realistic" if it had stayed uneffected while random pieces of paper and whatnot had been plastered up against the vents while Michael sucked.
On watching VLV today: |
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Posted 03-05-2003 04:51 PM by The Real Momo
Another thing we have to remember is that Gandarium is a genetically engineered life form according to Larek to bridge the differences between human and alien DNA. Is it possible that plant DNA material has been injected into the Gandarium to help bridge the difference between humans and aliens? This may explain why some have refered to the alien cells looking like "plant" cells. If that is the case, could the vines be referring to the double helix? I've got to go for now but I'll be back with more about vines, the Grail, and whatever! [ 03-05-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 03-05-2003 07:59 PM by Misha
Momo, you said this: We know Nasedo killed Atherton, but not the reason. Well, it might not be the biggest source of information, but in the Original Roswell CD, on the map part, there is an explanation that when Langley killed the actress, Atherton saw it, and that's why Nacedo had to kill him. I'm sure it's a little bit more explicit than this, but that's what I recall when I read it. You might want to check it out Misha |
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Posted 03-06-2003 09:14 PM by shapeshifter
Misha, That is a really cool tidbit about Atherton. I hadn't heard it before. Also, Misha, if you read Spanish, please email me at plum@ulink.net . I have a message from a Roswellian that I can't understand. Thanks! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Qfanny is planning on writing a memoir of her visit to the set while they filmed that ep. It was probably one of the best (if not the best) ep to see filmed. ~~~ There are 2 references in CYN to "the end of the world." The delivery guy (who, btw, does a great acting job--anybody know what else he's done?) says Alex acted like "it was the end of the world." And I think there's another literal reference that escapes me right now. But, also, the part of "Amazing Grace" that we hear seems very selective:
The sun forbear to shine; It's sort of like the message is that we can't stop the end of the world, we can only change its course. ~~~ One more thing on CYN: Isabel keeps saying it wouldn't have happened to Alex if he hadn't been in a relationship with her. But, actually, it was his friendship with Liz (and, to a lesser extent, Maria) that brought him into the whole Alien blues fest. |
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Posted 03-06-2003 10:27 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hey shape! I enjoy your post on Cry Your Name! I agree it is a very well done episode. For me, it is very moving. Regarding the episode How the Other Half Lives you say, “When Isabel comes back for her shorter soliloquy with Grant's body, the crystals should have been a puddle on the ground next to his body.” You further explain why you make the statement, by saying, “Oh, I'm basing it on the behavior of the crystals in the cave immediately after the queen was destroyed. I think it's a total CHAD that the crystals in Grant's chest didn't melt too.” Actually, shapeshifter, the crystals do not “melt” in the cave or in Grant’s chest. The definition of melt is “to become altered from a solid to a liquid, usually by heat.” No temperature change occurs in the cave or in the bomb shelter. The Gandarium crystals do not “melt”. The Gandarium crystals die. Both Alex and Kyle say “They’re dying! They’re dying!” The crystals die and fall on Kyle and Alex. Kyle says to Liz, Tess, and Max, “So all the crystals died. And they fell on us, ‘cause they’re dead.” The scene with the crystals in the cave and the scene with the crystals in Grant’s chest are consistent with dying. Neither scene is consistent with “melting”. Both scenes portray the death of the Gandarium. In the cave, the Gandarium crystals die. As they die, they loosen from the ceiling of the cave and fall on Alex and Kyle. The audience does not see the crystals fall on Alex and Kyle. The audience hears Kyle report the fact. The crystals do not melt. The crystals had been living. As they died, they lost moisture, as living things do, when they die. Fluid falls from the cave ceiling. The crystals do not melt. The crystals give up fluid, which streams down from the ceiling in thin lines. There is no evidence of melting. No temperature change occurs. No one says anything about melting. The crystals did not melt. The crystals died. Fluid also may have been released into Grant’s chest upon the death of the Gandarium. We would not notice the fluid, because it would be contained within the confines of Grant’s chest cavity. Both scenes featuring the death of the crystals are in agreement with each other.
definition of “melt” from Merriam Webster Online [ 03-06-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 03-07-2003 01:50 PM by shapeshifter
C&V, Okay then! How about "liquify" or "dissolve"? Actually, WAY back when I was Shiri's age, I overheard an amore telling a wannabe amore that when he kissed me I "just melted." But yeah, the crystals could have been absorbed into Grant's chest or body cavities, but it always bothers me to see the crystals still sticking up when she walks in. And she does cover him a bit hastily. It bothers me because it interupts her very moving performance thereafter. I guess that's the trouble with weekly shows vs. movies where the editing must be done quickly. |
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Posted 03-08-2003 12:17 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hi shapeshifter! You have excellent powers of melting an amore! Way to go!! I think the scene with Isabel following Grant's death is awesome too! I can understand that you would not want anything to distract from Katherine's very moving performance. For me, the crystals in Grant's chest are in sharp contrast to Grant who was a decent person, when not under the control of the Gandarium. (I love the scene in the café in which Isabel reintroduces herself. Grant readily falls in with her idea!) The scene with the crystals reminds me how much disease or injury can affect someone and change their personality. I like that Isabel covers Grant with the blanket. Isabel wanted to help Grant. Isabel arrived too late. Grant was already dead. Isabel's tenderness toward Grant is very meaningful to me. I'm glad you like what follows thereafter! Me too!
quote: Grant Sorenson died in the episode How the Other Half Lives. Grant’s suit was against the city for 15 million dollars. With Grant’s death, the suit stops. [ 03-08-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 03-08-2003 08:55 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Oops! I knew I didn't describe that clearly. I was the serious girl who melted. No powers with me.
quote:Oooo, I wonder if they had to hide the body like they did with Pierce because of the weird wound the crystals would have left? If they did dispose of it, then I can imagine a future book about Valenti being accused of murdering Grant to get out of the law suit. Then maybe Valenti will have to go on the run too. And by then he might be exhibiting powers from Max healing his gunshot wound to the chest in the Meta-Chem lab. Sorry, imagination running away. BTW, I thought the guy who played Sorenson showed a really wide range of acting ability. He did charming and creepy and psycho all very well. |
Posted 03-10-2003 02:29 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Jerry, the delivery guy, is played by Jason Dohring. Info on other things he's done is at imdb.com |
Posted 03-10-2003 07:38 PM by Qfanny
quote: shapeshifter, you amaze me! I never thought about what they did to Grant's body? I think the last person that saw Grant was Isabel, so could she have made the wound look normal? Also, if so, there's still the sticky problem of a seemingly healthy guy dropping dead from no apparant causes. My guess is that Duff had to be instrumental in her reports to finger Grant as the kidnapper and that he died in the capture. Like usual, I am at the library and the kids are getting ancy so I will comment on the last two posts. |
Posted 03-10-2003 07:39 PM by Qfanny
quote: This is one character from CYN I did not get to see. |
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Posted 03-10-2003 07:55 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Actually, if Alex had been in a relationship with Isabel all along Tess couldn't have abducted him like that. The whole 'push them away for their own protection' thing all the aliens did never made much sense. Very good posts on the Hybrid Chronicles and everything, btw.
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Posted 03-12-2003 04:29 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Qfanny, good point! I never thought of that one. She could have made it look like just a gun shot wound. About OTM, if Tess mindwarped the images into Max of their past romance while he was healing Brody when their powers were restored, then maybe her tears when Max came to her that night were genuine sorrow that he didn't remember anything except a fake mindwarp--that she really wished he did love her. |
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Posted 03-15-2003 11:50 AM by shapeshifter
2 things:
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Posted 03-15-2003 02:27 PM by elenac
Hi guys. So good to see the old group reforming. I'll read later all your posts. Just dropping by to say Hallo. Not having a S3 in Italy yet |
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Posted 03-17-2003 11:37 AM by Reggie
Originally posted by The Real Momo: Reggie, rroy about the late reply: Liz would not need to account for her uniform since her parents owned it. It's also possible that, as an employee, that Liz may have purchased the uniform (some restaurants do not furnish uniforms but force employees to buy them) and again, would not need to account for her uniform. Oh? Her mother does the laundry (Wipeout). If Liz does NOT do something, Mom finds Liz's uniform in the laundry, with a bullethole over her heart, surrounded by a bloodstain. Do you suppose Mom might wonder about this? Usually a worker doesn't have many uniforms. Simply loosing one out of the rotation would cause a noticable problem. "Liz, honey? You've got three uniforms; you're wearing one, and there's only one in the hamper. Where's the other one? I need to wash it too." Or: "Liz! How can you be out of uniforms? You've got three, and I've only got two in the wash. You must have a clean one; go put it on, dear..." Interest in Liz's uniform doesn't take place until after Valenti finds it in her bag. Valenti, as curious as he is, doesn't even think about the apron. Did she have the apron on, and does it cover the area of the bullet hole? I forget. But as for Valenti - if he hadn't searched her bag (illegally: no warrent or permission), he would not have found the damaged uniform. Which was Liz's plan, obviously: clean the uniform not at home, and mend it as needed, then bring the uniform home in presentable shape. The school's HomeEc department would have both laundry and sewing equiplent, and Good Student Liz should have no trouble wangling the use of them. Liz would do for the uniform, what Max did for her; and no one would know. Realistically, that brings us to Maria, who confronts Liz with the order book. The order book is kept in a pocket of the apron. That probably means Maria had or has possession of the apron at some time. I doubt that the aprons are identifiable as belonging to one person or another, since they don't have to be fitted. Liz could probably get away with "loosing" an apron. The plants still bother me. They certainly don't seem plastic and after 40 years, they are just too perfect. While it is true that plants have different shades of green, plants also shed leaves as they die off, get overgrown when not pruned, etc. What it says to me is that someone was there after Atherton. My sister has a number of plastic plants around the house. (They're cat-proof, you see.) They are quite realistic, but require minimal care. If Atherton had to be out of town for weeks at a time (book tours, etc.), plastic plants would be the perfect thing for him to have. Although... I don't know how realistic such things were in 1959. |
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Posted 03-17-2003 12:39 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Reggie and everyone! On the question of blood on the apron, blood would not have been a problem. The apron is a vinyl fabric. The surface is shiny. Possibly the fabric repels stains and can easily be cleaned. Also, it's normal in restaurants for things to get on aprons. I doubt anyone would be concerned about something on an apron. Also, the ketchup that Max spilled on Liz could cover blood. So no problem with the apron! Liz could also plan to wash her uniform later, when her mom is not around. Liz's uniform presents a problem, because in addition to blood and ketchup, there is a bullet hole in it. I think Liz took her uniform with her, so her mom would not find it before Liz could take care of the problem herself. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/1/monster/monst059.jpg [ 03-29-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 03-21-2003 09:09 PM by shapeshifter
Citrus & Vine, I need a Roswell Apologist's explanation for the parking ticket/warning note that dissolved like a skin in Control. We discussed this on the old Sci Fi of Control thread, but never came to any real conclusions. I trust that you can solve this one. |
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Posted 03-23-2003 10:56 PM by Reggie
Shapeshifter, there's exactly one episode that I've never seen (yet... ). But I think I can handle your question. If you can handle Alien Powers making a bullet disintegrate without touching it (Pilot), or making ink on a page disappear without touching it (Graduation), then you can believe that alien power could make that ticket disolve without the alien responsible touching it (i.e., from a distance). [ 03-23-2003: Message edited Reggie ] |
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Posted 03-24-2003 02:21 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hi shapeshifter and Reggie! I hope you get to see Secrets and Lies, Reggie! Perhaps you already know that SciFi will be rerunning the series starting April 10. I like your answer Reggie very much. I think that explains things well. I think the disintegrating paper is meant to indicate that an alien is involved with leaving the message for Max. I think it echoes the disintegrating skins of the Skins, who were aliens. I think it is a reminder of the dangers the Skins presented. The Skins (Nicholas) tortured Max, Michael, Tess, and Isabel. Isabel, Tess, Michael, and Max were almost killed by the Skins. I’m not familiar with a substance that acts the way the Skins’ sloughed off skin reacted or the way the “paper” Max held reacted. However, Kal is in filmmaking and is successful. It makes sense that Kal would be in touch with leading edge technology in special effects. There is a product on the market called Toni’s Amazing Disappearing Paper. It is paper that dissolves in water in 10 seconds. There is also a product called Sulky Heat-Away™ Heat Disintegrating Brush-off Stabilizer. It is a special heat-sensitive woven fabric that disintegrates with a hot, dry iron, then brushes away easily. It’s like muslin that vanishes. I think it is not too far a stretch to think that a product might be developed that would disintegrate in a short period of time after contact with moisture from a person’s hand or after contact with heat from a person’s hand. However, I think in the scene, the point is that something extraordinary was used for the message to Max. I do not think it is supposed to represent human technology. I think it is supposed to represent alien influence. As such, I think it is unnecessary to explain the effect by identifying existing human products. I like the effect of the paper disintegrating! I like that the “paper” disintegrates from the bottom up, contrary to what one might expect. I think it heightens the suspense. I think it relates well to the theme of dealing with unknown dangers. I think the point is there are many things in life to learn and discover!
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Posted 03-24-2003 09:14 PM by Qfanny
Okay, This has probably been discussed before, but I want some input to this. I wish I could post the screencap. This is regarding the episode where Monk gets shot. When Morgan Fairchild is interviewing Michael did anyone notice the symbols on the white board behind her? The first one reminds me of the granolith. The second one, which I find more intrigring, is a triangle with six circles around it. Does this forshadow the final six that leave Roswell? Liz, Max, Michael, Maria, Kyle, and Isabel. Each circle points back to the triangle, as if they are all connected to the triangle? A triangle is equal to 180 degrees. The path that the six must take must be a radical and drastic change. The six must change their path if they are to survive. I hope that this post makes sense... it's so hard to illistrate without the picture. |
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Posted 03-24-2003 10:12 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Qfanny! Here are some caps for you. Wow! The things you notice! IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/3/panac/panace061.jpg IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/3/panac/panace068q.jpg screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries [ 03-24-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 03-25-2003 07:49 PM by shapeshifter
I cannot *sob* find the discussion we had about the diagrams behind Morgan Fairchild in those images! Will try more later. Just watched Interruptus on SciFi. quote:Is it related to the ET movie? It follows after these lines that do have an ET reference: quote: |
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Posted 03-25-2003 10:28 PM by Qfanny
Thanks for the screencap, you make life so much easier. |
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Posted 03-25-2003 10:40 PM by Nemo
In the screencaps, the whiteboard stuff looks as if it's supposed to be some generic chemistry mumbo-jumbo. (Atoms, chemical bonds, benzene rings, ...) I could believe Qfanny's proposed interpretation of the sixfold figure, especially since it is placed so prominently. [ 03-25-2003: Message edited Nemo ] |
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Posted 03-26-2003 12:46 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hi shapeshifter! (and Nemo and Qfanny!) You asked, "Can someone tell me what is meant by "I'm gonna get a t-shirt printed up" in this part of the script (of Interruptus)." In the scene, Max explains to Isabel his plan of what the three of them will do about Kivar. Max says he and Michael will get Kivar out of Denny somehow. That will spare Denny's life. Isabel wants to know what will happen to Kivar, after he is released from Denny's body. Michael answers sarcastasically, "I'm gonna get a t-shirt printed up" (before he says, "We're gonna kill him, Isabel.") To Michael, it is so obvious that Kivar must be killed, that it is ridiculous for Isabel to even ask the question. Michael uses the print up a t-shirt response, because that is something people in peace movements might do to accomplish things, i.e., print a slogan on a t-shirt advocating peace. Printing up a t-shirt to get Kivar to turn peaceful is about the last thing Michael would do to deal with Kivar. Michael is pointing out this is not the time to try to reform Kivar. Kivar killed Isabel's previous self, as well as all her family and friends. For Michael, Kivar must be killed. Michael contrasts the alternative solution of not killing Kivar, by saying (sarcastically) he would print up a t-shirt. (People print up t-shirts for causes, like Save the Whales or to support a political candidate. Michael is saying he would not support Kivar. Michael plans to kill Kivar.)
[ 03-26-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 03-26-2003 02:15 AM by meg25
Oh boy! Am I glad that you guys are back!! I am lurker of this topic eversince, coz eventhough me and my friend discuss the show's meaning behind everything. I still can't believe how much insightful you guys are and I always learn new stuff in here. I only wish that I had taped season 1 before, even season 2 or 3 but then I didn't and it makes me sad I wish I could get my hands on season 1 again. Keep up the good work guys and thanks for all the beautiful insights.!!!! |
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Posted 03-26-2003 07:42 PM by shapeshifter
Hi meg25 Season 1 is supposed to start re-running again on the SciFi Channel in a couple of weeks. Today I saw most of Behind The Music. Does anyone know what the significance of Maria and Italian food is? I know Michael made her Italian food on the night they 'cemented' because he knew she 'liked' it. So does that mean he thinks she's cementing with Billy because she made him Italian food? It doesn't make sense to me, because it's Maria that likes it. |
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Posted 03-26-2003 08:12 PM by meg25
Thanks for the welcome shapeshifter!!! Unfortunately I don't have SciFi Channel, I am from the other side of the world.. But we do have 3 channels that show Roswell. |
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Posted 03-27-2003 07:41 PM by Qfanny
shapeshifter - I wouldn't read too much into the Italian dinner Maria cooks for Billy. Making spaghetti is about the easiest thing on Earth (or Twilo). She also likes Scooby, but I can't think of a reference back to Liz Mythology. Besides, this is Maria - a character that got increasingly annoying throughout the whole Roswell canon. I can't figure out what Michael liked about Maria because she treated him horribly. |
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Posted 03-27-2003 08:33 PM by shapeshifter
Qfan, Good point: Italian is no big deal! Today I saw Samuel Rising on SciFi. It was a metaphor for Max's "self indulgent little boy' personality problem, and shows us how he's growing out of it. Oh, and I remember when I first saw it, and the song at the end had the words about "we will be together, if the Fates allow," I suspected it was prophetic. And this may be really dense of me, but I finally realized the reason they had the images of Max through the distorted glass in the last scene with Samuel was to show that was how Samuel saw Max. |
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Posted 03-28-2003 06:05 PM by Ladeia
You guys are killing me here... So much to read.. will comment later because I like have to go now. ARGH!! I wanna read... |
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Posted 03-29-2003 01:41 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi everyone! quote: quote: Making spaghetti can be very easy. It can be as simple as opening a can of spaghetti or as simple as microwaving a frozen spaghetti dinner. When Michael first sees Billy in person, Michael is upset, even though he had not expected to be. (The eggs next to Michael explode.). Michael planned to be at the dinner Maria makes for the three of them, but Michael was unable to be there. Maria prepares the dinner. The sauce simmers in a separate pot on the stove. Maria tastes it. Maria is making a special sauce. She calls it “my” sauce. It seems to be something more special than a sauce from a can or from a jar. It seems to be a sauce that Maria takes pains to make taste right. Billy samples the sauce on the stove. He goes to the refrigerator, sniffs a carton to check for freshness, then adds some creamer to the sauce. Maria reacts with in an upset manner. She asks strongly, “What are you doing?” Billy explains that he is using creamer to thicken the sauce. Maria reacts, “In my sauce?” Maria feels protective of her sauce. The sauce is special to Maria. IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_093.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_094.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_095.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_096.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_097.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_098.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_099.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_100.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_101.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_102.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_103.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_104.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_105.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_106.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_107.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal308/th.308_108.jpg Later, at the café as Michael cooks, Maria advises Michael to add half-and-half to his sauce. Maria tells him it is something she learned from Billy. Michael asks Maria out to dinner to make up for the dinner with her that he missed the previous evening. Michael even plans to cancel bowling to go to dinner with Maria. Maria turns Michael down, because she wants to spend time with Billy alone. Billy had been scheduled to be already gone on to New York. Michael is very upset, and the salad he is working on explodes. Maria cooks dinner again. This time she cooks hamburgers. Maria tells Billy she hopes he likes it, because that is what he is getting. I think hamburgers represent a simpler fare than the previous evening’s fare. Michael talks to Liz about Billy. Michael is concerned about him. (Billy is staying alone in the house with Maria. Billy is staying longer than he originally planned. Maria is not including Michael in on her evening with Billy, even though all three of them were scheduled to have dinner together the previous evening.) Liz reassures Michael, saying people miss buses. Michael is not reassured, though. Michael thinks back on what he knows. Michael knows Billy changed Maria’s sauce. Michael is worried about what other changes Billy might make. The sugar containers explode. Liz tells Michael he needs to calm down. Liz says everything is fine between Michael and Maria. Michael tells Liz that Maria cooked Italian for Billy last night. Liz says, “Oh” as though that means something and that Michael has a justifiable reason for worrying. We do not know what Italian dish Maria prepared for Billy. It might have been spaghetti, or it might have been some other Italian dish. Saying Maria cooked Italian, though, does have special significance. Michael knows it. Liz knows it. The audience can notice that Maria took special care with her sauce, and that the sauce took time to prepare. In the scene, Michael’s statement that Maria cooked Italian last night when Billy ate alone with Maria provides Liz with compelling information that perhaps not everything is fine in Maria’s relationship with Michael.
[ 03-29-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 03-29-2003 02:01 PM by Reggie
Of course, that's not Liz's first clue. In the intro to ATOTP, she says she thinks that Max "spent the night with" Maria. This doesn't speak well of Maria's relationship with Michael, nevermind Max's relationship with Liz. The more I see, the more despicable these wretches look. |
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Posted 03-29-2003 05:23 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hey Reggie! How's it going? A Tale of Two Parties is a New Year's Eve and New Year's Day 2002 story. Liz knows Max probably spent the night with Maria, because Liz insisted that Max and Maria go together to find the Enigma party. Max and Maria left to find the party sometime after 10:30 pm. Liz guesses Max and Maria spent the night together, because Liz has not heard anything from either of them at the point Liz makes the statement. Maria and Max enjoyed the party. They return singing together! Behind the Music is set before Christmas 2001. Behind the Music, the episode in which Maria breaks up with Michael, occurs before A Tale of Two Parties. Maria and Michael are not together as a couple in A Tale of Two Parties. Michael still has feelings for Maria, even though they are not together. Michael hopes Maria will return to him. That is why Michael does not want Liz to tell M |