|
RBI #3: Trying to figure out what happened!
Welcome
to the Roswell Bureau of Investigation! Here sluething of details,
plots, and myths abound. We used to study just "The Importance of Liz
to Alien Mythology", but Roswell got more complicated than that. Now,
we're trying to untangle everything!
 Our previous thread is here. Please remember two rules: Don't be annoying, and don't be easily annoyed. You don't have tbe disagreeable just because you disagree: We're all friends here, so let's be friendly.  Post away!  [ 12-14-2003: Message edited Reggie ] |
Way to go, Reggie!
It's about time you started the thread!  The last thread is also archived here. Did anyone notice how the opening scene for the new Battlestar Gallactica was so much like the scene from Max In The City where Max gets his head examined? |
Not particularly, no. It resembled that scene from MitC to you?
And I usually leave thread starting to the thread parent(s), but since the previous thread had been closed, and was working its way down Page 2, I figured someone had to do something. |
The
only Roswell "similarity" that I picked up on, was the Cylon woman spy
that was with Baltar. She reminded me a whole lot of Tess.
BTW, what did "youse gize" think of the "new" BG? It took me about an hour to really get into it, but by the time it was over, I thought that it was several orders of magnitude better than the original series. Better plot lines, FAR, FAR better acting and directing, and more reralistic characters, and better dialogue. But that's just my opinion. What's yours?  We are the Borg  [ 12-15-2003: Message edited locutus of borg ] |
BSG
was flat, like soda pop without the fizz. The characters didn't have
enough screen time devoted to each of them to make any of them really
engaging. The plotline was filled with "set pieces": We saw a cute
girl, waiting for her parents. Obviously, she gets killed. BTW, the
ship she's on: Ever see Run Silent, Run Deep? "Stardoe" did not seem to
have much personality, besides being a pale version of Becca Valentine
(Andromeda). Making Boomer a secret Cylon is a bad idea, too.
Worst, IMHO, was the presentation of Earth's location as a lie told by Adama, rather than a mystery that Adama and the others can unravel to find Earth. This series is built on a fraud, rather than Hope. Bad as it was, I like the original one better. And it had theme music, too. |
I guess that we will just have to "agree to disagree" about that one.
We are the Borg |
Quote:
BTW, I read that BG was originally written by someone with Mormon roots, hence the parallel to the exiles of the 12 tribes of Israel stumbling upon the lost tribe in the new world. The idea of the Roswell/Antarian royal four from the 5 planets isn't that different, especially if you consider the humans to be descended from aliens, as Zero liked to speculate. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm reading Douglas Adams The Restaurant at the End of the Universe. He refers to "Antarean lizards." Also, on page 223, I had a Roswellian Sexual Healing moment in a campy sort of way when reading: Quote:
[ 12-15-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Quote:
And this one is working it's way down page 2 as well.  We need some activity here, Dudes and
Dudettes!We are the Borg |
Hey
Can't comment on BSG... maybe someone will air it here next year  Shapeshifter, that's so odd! Hi LOB! Thanks for the new thread Reggie! [ 12-20-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
Greenglow Shapeshifter ReggieWe are the Borg |
I'm leaving town for 2 weeks tomorrow, but will probably be able to
check in. I'm working on a website for my brother-in-law, and needed a
Welsh dragon. This one:
reminds me a lot of the image on Liz's window. I can't find a screen cap of it at the moment. Anyone else? And now I'm thinking about this bit of dialog regarding the movie, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon:
|
Quote:
Here's one from Crashdown Media*Blvd site. It is a view of the dragon from outside the window�no color, mostly silhouette http://crashdown.media*blvd.com/scr...312/312_446.jpg (remove the *) 
|
I watched BSG hoping for a new scifi story I could get into but was very disappointed.
I liked the Cylon fighters, the visuals of weapons streaking toward targets with trails of light, some of the special effects, but the characters were not appealing to me. I did see some comparisons to Roswell but mostly in the dark themes of death and betrayal. The death of the human race was bleak and painful but I was able to get a sense of what it would really be like to have a whole race of people, a whole planet, destroyed. If you think of Roswell in that light, there was the threat of the destruction of the human race from TEOTH. It is more sobering to contemplate when human suffering is shown instead of just talked about. I know they were trying to make the characters more realistic and flawed in BSG but they flawed them right out of whatever sympathy I might have been able to muster for them. An alcoholic second in command, a leader who lies to his people because he can't inspire them with the truth, a president who admits she's more concerned about her own mortality than the end of the world and a so called hero hot shot pilot who admits she caused the death of someone she loved because she wanted him to be something he couldn't ever be. Starbuck's confession about Apollo's brother is something you'd like to think doesn't happen but it does. I knew a helicopter pilot who trained others and was unable to flunk anyone unless they were grossly incompetent. He just couldn't bring himself to wash someone out. Not a nice thought since those same helicopters in training fly right over my house on their practice sessions. The only Cylons I liked were the computer imaged ones that came before the human looking ones. They were cool and scarier looking than the sexy blond. Max jumping from his own body to Clayton's was quite a stretch for me but BSG went even further. Machines created by humans somehow learn to make themselves immortal by moving their consciousness to another body. I just find that so unbelievable that it made the Cylons seem ridiculous. The original BSG was more of a family show and kids loved it. The mature nature of the new one excludes kids so I take it they're trying to appeal to adults, specifically males, given the sexual nature of the new Cylons (there wasn't a single sexy male Cylon) and more specifically, white males, since there wasn't a single major black character. I guess they've targeted a certain audience that they think will draw advertisers, but I would have liked something I could recommend to my young, racially diverse students. Since it got good ratings, a lot of people must disagree with me. I did like parts of if but I like to like the characters in a story, at least some of them. I liked the characters in Roswell, all of them. That and the scifi is what keeps me watching it and talking about it long past it's cancellation. So far, BSG makes me feel too negative to actually want to watch it as a series. |
Algieba,
I guess the reason I liked BG so much better than the original was because it was more adult. The original, with Lorne Greene, was so juvenile, and so fanatically politically correct that it turned off many adults. I agree with you that it's not exactly a family program, but most science fiction isn't. Roswell was one of the great exceptions. Roswell appealed to many 10 year olds, and to many 60 year olds. Very few SciFi programs can do that. We are the Borg [ 12-24-2003: Message edited locutus of borg ] |
Ok, here comes the MondoPost!
 The Real Momo: I am taking Nasedo's pitch to Max to take on his marital duties as foreshadowing of what was to come. Destiny marks the mission to bring back the Royal 4 to Antar. Skin & Bones to lock in Max & Tess's relationship, pushing for consummation of said relationship in order to produce an heir. Perhaps eventually; but since both Max and Tess are in human bodies, an heir of their flesh would be human. I would expect that such an heir should properly be alien: a "Skin" occupant, a Shapeshifter, a Twylonian, whatever. So, the actual production of an heir should be delayed until both Max and Tess were re-installed in their proper alien bodies (presumably, clones of their original bodies). Resumption of Max's original relationship with his "young bride" is a seperate issue, and could be addressed while they were in any form, human or alien. In either case, I think there is also probably enough initial background to present the validity of the Nasedo Pact as being real and not just a mindwarped Tess, especially if Tess is considered as "all powerful" because of her "fireball". This CHAD is so "openended" that there are several directions to take the story. I see what you mean, but I'm a little more sanguine about figuring things out. Tess can't be "all-powerful", because she's like the other Podsters who aren't. The fireball is explicable as an example of "hysterical strength", which is a familiar human property. Otherwise, we'd have to consider it a straight deus-ex-machina; to extract the Podsters from their defeat by Nikolas's Skins. This would imply that JK and the Moonshine Band were nothing more than unimaginitive hacks who had no better idea.
The history of Nasedo shows us that in 1959 he was in big trouble. He kills Atherton. He's being pursued by an unseen enemy - FBI, military, Skins? All three? Then he vanishes. Where? If we believe Tess that the Nasedo Pact was fashioned 40+ years ago from Departure that puts the Nasedo Pact as being put in place about 1960-1962. The next time we know Nasedo's hanging around the Southwest in in 1970 when Sheila Harding is killed, then in 1972 when Nasedo begins knocking off the Special Unit operatives. So between 1959 and 1970, Nasedo is MIA. So there is room for Nasedo to have made a deal with the Skins during this time period. Riverdog tells Max & Liz that Nasedo is being hunted by "unknown" people. He has to leave town. He kills Atherton because he knows too much (possibly threatens to expose him or turn him in?). Nasedo tries to leave town. Doesn't make it and is captured by Skins who have been searching for the pod squad since 1950. He's held in captivity until he comes up with the Nasedo Pact. In exchange for his freedom, he turns over the pod squad and Max's heir. For the moment, let's assume he does this under duress. Whoa, whoa, whoa! That's a whole lot of assumptions there!  You say, "If we believe Tess that the Nasedo Pact was fashioned 40+ years ago", but that's what we're trying to establish. Taking the conclusion as part of the premise is circular logic; not sound practice. Let's start with what we do and don't know. First, we don't know who killed Atherton or why. If we've got two shapeshifters running around loose, then it could have been either one of them. Since one was captured by the Army (in 1947), they likely lost touch with each other. Tic-tac could have been cultivating Atherton (and River Dog) as allies, and Harding killed Atherton because he'd "discovered" too much and was publishing it. Something similar could have happened with Sheila Harding; or one of them could have thought she was a Skin. We know that the Army was persuing aliens, and that the Army does not have civilian police power. (See "posse comitatus laws".) It's appropriate and likely that after the initial Roswell investigation wound up, the persuit was handed off to the FBI. Since J. Edgar Hoover was in charge for ages, it's also possible that the head (and staff) of the alien-hunting unit would also be retained over the years. It makes security simpler, after all. By this time, the Skins have inflitrated positions of "importance" as noted in Whitaker's diaries including the government. So it's also possible, with their government access, that the Skins are behind The Special Unit. It makes more sense if the Skins, once they had established themselves, used the pre-existing FBI unit to find the podsters. As long as the natives are doing the work, why not let them? Since the Shapeshifters were escaping from K' var, it's likely that they expected to be followed. (Heck, that's probably why they crashed or were shot down in the first place!) They would have expected the Skins. With the FBI also on their trail, it's no wonder that they both vanish. In that time frame, it shouldn't be hard: they could hide as migrant farm workers, refugees from Europe (which would cover a lot), or as truck drivers. At the time, multiple (false) doccumentation for drivers was normal. A truck driver who claimed to be a refugee from (say) Czechoslovakia would have an odd accent, iffy paperwork, and miss common cultural references; but still be capable of reading a map, have excellent mechanical abilities, good work ethics, etc. This is a good employee! We don't know why Sheila Harding died. It did attract the attention of the FBI, though. Who benefited? This may be why someone started to kill the Special Unit agents; they were closing in, and Harding (?) had to defend himself. It could even be that she was killed by a Skin, to incriminate one of the shapeshifters or just to "prime the pump" somehow. It did get her husband going, and that created another problem for the aliens. So there is room for Nasedo to have made a deal with the Skins during this time period. Nasedo tries to leave town. Doesn't make it and is captured by Skins (...) until he comes up with the Nasedo Pact. In exchange for his freedom, he turns over the pod squad and Max's heir. This doesn't make sense. Since Nikolas had "Nacedo", and could mindrape him to find out the location of The Granolyth and all the Podsters, why deal? Why wait? Interrogate him, and kill them or bring them home for disposal. The Skins get home before there's any problem with their husks. Sounds good to me! (Remember the Whitaker diaries mention that the Skins found some pods about "20 years ago" [about 1970]). We know the Dupes fell into Skin hands. Are the "Whitaker diaries" canon? I've heard of them; never bothered to read them as that site seemed more like fanfic than anything else. And Ava referred to her "Protector", not Nikolas or any skin. There's too much missing info about the Dupes; it could even be that the Dupes sought out the Skins, to bargain for a trip home. Clearly, Lonnie was working on that possibility. Our assumption has been that Nasedo only learns about the pod squad when Michael signals Nasedo from the library and Nasedo returns the signal in "Into the Woods" near the cave. We see, presumably Nasedo, burn the pod squad's picture in "Blind Date." However, how would Nasedo "see" this symbol if he was not in Roswell and the signal could be seen only by the air? Well, I think he may have already been in Roswell. I think Nasedo knew about Max and Liz from the beginning. If you recall, Nasedo claimed to work for the government. If that's true, then it's possible he had information based on Valenti's contact with Special Unit agent Stevens. Which means that Nasedo's photographs may have been taken from the Special Unit. From this point, when Nasedo burns the photograph, we need to decide what Nasedo's intentions really were. The burning of the photograph could be taken as malicious intent. We've believed that Tic-tac had been "around" for some time. It could just as easily be that Tic-tac was making the original light show (in ITW), to alert Harding that it was time to come in from the cold, and bring Tess. He may have had no other way to contact Harding, since he moved around so much. (Both Shapeshifters knew about all the Podsters from the beginning, of course!) The reply by Michael on the Library lawn may have been unexpected by the shapeshifters; but a Skin agent (local, or sent in) would have recognised it, and reacted with malice. Since CongresSkin Whitaker had been in the area, it makes sense to believe that there were other Skins around; and that they had photos or "artist's concepts" of the podsters. There is no need to suppose one of the Shapeshifters is a double agent, when there are legitimate villains in the game. As for Liz, Nasedo would never have accepted Liz for Tess. "She doesn't belong here," he says in "Destiny" and he means it. She's only tolerated because of Max . Had Nasedo lived, this probably would have developed into more of an issue. TicTac, however, probably would have approved of the relationship. As King, it's Max's prerogative to take a wife without a veto by his retainers. Put that way, Mr. Harding would have submitted; especialy since Tess and Kyle were developing a relationship. With Tess provided for and happy, honor would be satisfied; and the eight could have proceded to fulfill whatever destinies awaited them. Citrus and Vine: Hi Reggie! I suspect you wish to clear Tess of responsibility for intending to hand Max, Michael, and Isabel over to Kivar. Hence, you blame Nicholas and say he mindwarped Tess. I believe that it makes far more sense, both within the story and as a good story itself, to have Nikolas behind Tess's actions; as his CW was behind the attempt to "turn" Isabel, and he himself was behind the attempt to entrap Max. In this third try, his attempt was successful. In my fanfics, Tess is redeemed, and Nikolas would (eventually) go after Michael. It's a meta- story arc, if you see what I mean. If Nicholas had mindwarped Tess into thinking Nasedo made a deal with Kivar, then Tess had the ability to decide what she wanted to do with the information. Tess, however, shows she is cognizant of what she is doing. She knowingly continued to mindwarp Alex to keep him from talking. She knowingly continued mindwarping Kyle to keep him from talking. Absolutely correct ! (Bet you didn't expect me to agree, did you? )CW tried to turn Isabel, by appealing to her vanity. She was so beautiful, a king wanted her. Nikolas appealed to Max's appetite for power, without responsibility. He would be a pampered figurehead, and K' var would do the hard work of governing. Likewise, the attempt on Tess would appeal to her weakness: a willingness to be lead; not leadership, but followership if you will. "What do we do now, Max?" was her motto! All Nikolas had to do was MW her to convince her that her authority figure "father" had made a deal. It's in Tess's nature to follow orders. Likewise, it's not in Alex's nature to drop school, friends and family to go off to work in Las Cruces. This is not something Tess could have managed at her power's strength. Nikolas, on the other hand, could easily manage that; as well as organizing the college accomidations, computer time, the entire use of not-Leanna, etc. Again, the villain behind the scenes is Nikolas: good storytelling. Locutus of Borg: The original, with Lorne Greene, was so juvenile, and so fanatically politically correct that it turned off many adults. I agree with you that it's not exactly a family program, but most science fiction isn't. Roswell was one of the great exceptions. Sure, the original BSG was rather juvenile, but I took it as camp. C'mon now: the Lords of COBOL? Exiled after the Fortran Wars, right? And the vast majority of sci-fi is family-friendly. Remember, it's written in magazines, with minimal romance; let alone  s-x. The plots are action-oriented, and/or
scientific puzzles. Roswell added first-rate romance to mediocre
fantasy to produce S1. In S2, they added non-science fiction, which
rapidly degenerated into nonsense fiction.
|
I've just started reading this thread, so I'm new to this.
I do have to disagree with the idea that Tess was somehow mindwarped, or controlled in some fashion. While it seems to absolve Tess of alot of responsibility, I've never seen any indication that Nicholas was exerting that kind of influence. I admit, too, that I've always found the idea that Tess is an alien with really weak powers to also be something that's hard to swallow. It's almost (forgive me) laughable to think that Tess was with Nasedo for 10 long years, that she was his partner-in-crime so to speak, and the best that she can come up with is a one minute mindwarp before she's breathlessly panting that she couldn't hold it any longer. Sure. The show, for me, presented a Tess who mindwarped Alex for months, something that Alex accused her of and something that she admitted to in the podchamber. The fact that she admits her guilt lets me know that she's a little more powerful than she has let on. And, considering her duplicitious nature, it makes more sense for me to believe that she was misleading everyone as to exactly how powerful she was when she was seemingly tapped out so quickly whenever she mindwarped. "Being with Nasedo has taught me a few things," can be taken two ways. It can mean that she has a little bit of knowledge, or it can mean that she is a whole lot more powerful than she is leading everyone to believe. The mere fact that she seemingly had limited powers, because she supposedly could only hold her mindwarps for moments at a time, suggests that either she's misrepresenting her abilities, or Nasedo had 10 years where he taught her basically nothing ... either that or she's a really lousy study. And her admission of guilt in the podchamber, that Alex's mind was weakened by the mindwarps until he died (with no evidence of anyone else helping out) leads me to believe that she lied about exactly what she could do. |
Sieve,
ITA! Tess lied about everything at all times. IMNSHO, she was truly the "evil mindwarpng bitch from hell." Reggie, I must respectfully disagree that most SciFi is family oriented. Battlestar Galactica (original) and Lost in Space were, of course, but the biggies, like the Star Trek programs, Stargate, Dune, Starship Troopers, etc, dealt with some pretty heavy material. Quite a bit of romance in the Star Trek programs too. No heavy graphic sex, of course, but some pretty profound suggestion. I agree that the new BSG was a little heavy on the "adult" themes, but perhaps that's because they were trying to separate it from the original. They portrayed young military people much more realistically than the original. (I had forgotten about the Lords of Cobol, and the Fortran wars. LOL!!) It wasn't perfect by a long shot, but at least, thank God, it wasn't so sickeningly "politically correct." |
Originally posted by locutus of borg:
Tess lied about everything at all times. IMNSHO, she was truly the "evil mindwarpng bitch from hell." Resistance is irrelevent. You will be assimilated. I must respectfully disagree that most SciFi is family oriented. Battlestar Galactica (original) and Lost in Space were, of course, but the biggies, like the Star Trek programs, Stargate, Dune, Starship Troopers, etc, dealt with some pretty heavy material. Quite a bit of romance in the Star Trek programs too. No heavy graphic sex, of course, but some pretty profound suggestion. That's a short list of fairly recent TV shows and movies. The vast majority of sci-fi is published in magazines like Analog (formerly Astounding SF), TMF&SF, Isaac Asimov's, and others; not to mention books and series of books. And while yes, some has reference to sex (Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love", for example), it's nothing like as graphic as you'd get in a James Bond movie. And those movies are tame compared to some of the fanfic I've read. Mind you, I'm talking sex; philosophy (truly adult material, not adolescent... but that's a pet peeve) has often been a part of Sci-Fi. The Lensmen series revolved around the struggle between Good and Evil; so did Babylon 5. |
Your
points are well taken. I was think of TV and movie SciFi. Some of the
FanFic I've seen is little more than hard, XXX porn. Much of it, though
is well written.
Wow! It's been several decades since I've even thought about, or heard reference made to the "Lensmen" series, or any other of E.E. "Doc" Smith's works. I was a big fan of Smith in the early sixties. If you like "philosophical" SciFi, mixed with a lot of real "Rambo" type action, read Robert Doherty's "Area 51" series. He's verbose in the extreme, but he's still worth reading.
We are tye Borg |
Then
let me refresh your memory with the "The Dark Star Passes" series by
John W Campbell. Or the Skylark series. Or the series by Hal Clement:
Mission of Gravity, & Starlight (excellent aliens); and Needle,
& Through the Eye of a Needle which is intended as a juvenile
series. There is also the "juvenile" Space Cadet series, written by
(IIRC) "Robert Anson". As in, Robert Anson Heinlein.
There's so much good stuff out there, and good writers. Why does Sci-Fi have such dreck produced and run? Are they preparing to have more Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes?  And, to get back on topic, wouldn't it be wonderful if someone with such talent had been working on Roswell? We'd have much less to wonder about, and more to wonder at. |
Aloha
from my mom & dad's home where I can eat papaya for breakfast and
avocado for lunch from my dad's garden. *First time in 3 years*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I think we will never be able to resolve the true nature of Tess unless it is in a new Roswell, which happens to include Tess (think Smallville and the various incarnations of Superman) and in which it addresses the whole Alex-was-mindwarped-for-months-long-distance-while-Tess-went-on-living-a-normal-teenage-life-in-Roswell business. But more likely than resolution would be having that business swept under the rug. The I Dream of Jeannie series started out with Dr. Bellows recognizing Jeannie from earlier encounters, but eventually each new episode built on random plot developments from the past and threw out anything that didn't work. Roswell did this too, but without the consistancy that IDOJ had due to fewer writers. Reggie's idea of Tess being mindwarped in MITC could work, but it was never unveiled, so it cannot be cannon (except in fanfic). At this moment, I'm leaning toward the idea of a Skin dupe of Tess being responsible for some of the shenanigans. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Reggie,
ITA that there are/were some great SciFi writers around, and it's a damn shame they weren't used in some capacity in Roswell. Of course, some of the best, like Asimov and Herbert are dead, but there are many others The problem, as I see it, was that Roswell itself was as much of a "hybrid" as the three "hybrid" characters. The show was a teen-angst-Romance-SciFi hybrid. I think Melinda Metz should have been more involved both from the beginning, and all the way to the end. Ditto Jonathan Frakes and Thania St. John. I can't imagine Asimov, Heinlein, Smith, Anderson, Doherty or any of the other "Biggies" wanting to be involved with a show that was more than 50 percent romantic relationships. But I think Roswell broke new ground. This was a first in melding SciFi, romance and teen-angst into one program. Roswell appealed to many folks that do not like traditional SciFi OR traditional romance. It also appealed to ALL age groups and both sexes. Perhaps we'll never get our beloved Roswell back in any form, and obviously the fans will never agree on what all went wrong, or what could or should have been done differently. But the cult following that Roswell has built up will eventually get the attention of producers and sponsors everywhere, and it's just possible, that in the years to come, Roswell will be analyzed thoroughly, and a new series will rise from the ashes. Possibly even better than Roswell, because the writers/producers/directors will have learned from the mistakes made in Roswell, and be able to correct them. Roswell broke new ground, and when you break new ground, you almost never get it completely right the first time. Roswell came close, though! We are the Borg |
Shapeshifter:
Aloha from my mom & dad's home where I can eat papaya for breakfast and avocado for lunch from my dad's garden. Aloha from the icy Northeast, where I can eat hot oatmeal from an envelope for breakfast!  The I Dream of Jeannie series started out with Dr. Bellows recognizing Jeannie from earlier encounters, but eventually each new episode built on random plot developments from the past and threw out anything that didn't work. Roswell did this too, but without the consistancy that IDOJ had due to fewer writers. That's why (for a Roswell revival) I've been enamored of the idea of hiring an Editor, preferably from a sci-fi magazine. They have experience keeping plotlines (and "science") straight. Who did that for Roswell? I don't recall seeing a credit for a "Head Writer". Algieba: ...I know they were trying to make the characters more realistic and flawed in BSG but they flawed them right out of whatever sympathy I might have been able to muster for them. Shapeshifter: None of these things bothered me too much, perhaps because I viewed them as starting points for character growth in a series. You both have a point, but it seems to me you have to have a plausible character to start with. For example, no ExO who is incapable of doing his job will have that job for more than a moment. The ExO on BSG was incapable, therefore unbelievable. Stardoe would not have been a flight instructor at her age; those are pilots who are too "old" for combat; and if she were, she'd know better than to pass someone unqualified. (Planes are expensive.) And so on... it just seemed too contrived. I thought there was a hint that these humanoids were developing souls--that the blond perhaps really did want to be loved. While I don't think this is a very original idea (thinking of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein even), I think it's actually quite realistic. I heard a physics/computer guru on National Public Radio a couple of years ago talking about computers taking over in the future. Well, the original Cylons were supposed to be soulless machines who'd taken over from a reptilian race. It may be possible that a computer could have a soul (define "soul"... ) but I don't think it could be disloyal to a racial drive. The will to destroy Mankind would have been programmed in at the factory. As for NPR, I suspect that selecting interviewees is a result of, rather than an initiator of, a creative process. But then, the NPR shows I listen to are Car Talk and (when I can find it) Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. The problem, as I see it, was that Roswell itself was as much of a "hybrid" as the three "hybrid" characters. The show was a teen-angst-Romance-SciFi hybrid. I can't imagine Asimov, Heinlein, Smith, Anderson, Doherty or any of the other "Biggies" wanting to be involved with a show that was more than 50 percent romantic relationships. I think Melinda Metz should have been more involved both from the beginning, and all the way to the end. Ditto Jonathan Frakes and Thania St. John. TSJ seems to have been associated with many good things in Roswell. If JF had been more involved (instead of doing "Clockstoppers"), one can only wonder. Surely, having been involved with Star Trek, he would have had more respect for the fans. Certainly "Trekies" are notorious for their attention to detail; the CHAD count should never gotten that high. As for the sci-fi / romance hybrid; well, Asimov prided himself on writing the first sci-fi / mystery stories, with R. Daniel Olivaw. Heinlein had some definite romance in Time Enough for Love, and others. Teen angst? Try his short story, "The Menace from Earth". I disagree: I think some of the "biggies" would have had a field day with Roswell. As for MM... well, she didn't originate Roswell. She was working from a concept supplied by her publisher; and she was no great sci-fi writer anyway. But the cult following that Roswell has built up will eventually get the attention of producers and sponsors everywhere, and it's just possible, that in the years to come, Roswell will be analyzed thoroughly, and a new series will rise from the ashes. Possibly even better than Roswell, because the writers/producers/directors will have learned from the mistakes made in Roswell, and be able to correct them. Well, that would be interesting. Then again, there'll never be another Rocky Horror Picture Show. ...good Lord willing... |
Hey
guys
just my little contribution for the
romance & sci-fi subject (I can't do a big post, I'm too sleepy
 for that ). In
Anne McCafrey's 'Dragonriders of Pern' series of novels (at least the
first one was aworded Hugo and Nebula, I think) romance, angst,
emotions, all play a role central to the story. So there are precedents
But I agree Roswell, at its best, was breaking new ground, the way it was packed toghether. |
Greenglow,
I haven't read that series. Is it SciFi,
or Fantasy? I know that today most pholks don't make a distinction
between the two, but I'm old school, and I still do.
 It really is interesting to speculate on what could have happened if good SciFi had been used. I think that
Melinda Metz was very good at teen angst, but a little weak on romance,
and very weak on SciFi. What do you think the series would have been like if Melinda Meta had done all of the angst,  and if Jonathan
Frakes had brought over some of the Star Trek writers for the SciFi,
 and JK had hired someone like Belva Plain
or Nora Roberts to do the Romance?  (Assuming, of course, that they didn't all kill each other trying to do the first episode?) We are thye Borg |
Greenglow:
In Anne McCafrey's 'Dragonriders of Pern' series of novels (at least the first one was awarded Hugo and Nebula, I think) romance, angst, emotions, all play a role central to the story. So there are precedents. Yes, indeed. The characters all have "people" inside them, with a plausible civilization and so on. No cardboard cut-outs! locutus of borg: I haven't read that series. Is it SciFi, or Fantasy? I know that today most pholks don't make a distinction between the two, but I'm old school, and I still do. Then you have missed a rare treat: a family of a dozen (?) books in the same general setting, all well thought out and well written. I share your concern about sci-fi vs. fantasy. Really, although it looks like fantasy at first glance, there's nothing too improbable about it. (YMMV) The "science" isn't thoroughly explained, to rule it as definitely fantasy (as the magic on Buffy was, for example). Enough care is taken in the storytelling that it could be science fiction, and there are definite elements (esp. in the later books) that suggest that it has been designed as science fiction. And the "science" is also far enough in the background that it doesn't interfere with The Story. I would urge you to read a book or two, and see for yourself. These are definitely good and worth reading. It really is interesting to speculate on what could have happened if good SciFi had been used. What do you think the series would have been like if Melinda Metz had done all of the angst, and if Jonathan Frakes had brought over some of the Star Trek writers for the SciFi, and JK had hired someone like Belva Plain or Nora Roberts to do the Romance? I think that that's a good idea, although I'm not sure as to MM's "Angst", or BP and NR's "Romance" abilities: I haven't read enough to judge their work. NR has quite a following, I'm told. I have my doubts about some of the Star Trek writers; I'm remembering one episode where a probe transformed the Enterprise into an Aztec temple or some such. But on the whole, that's the right
idea. Get good writers, and let them write good stories.As for Pern, remember that Ron Moore was trying to get a Pern TV show going. WB pulled the plug on it, unusually late in the process. I'm wondering if they got a look at his version of BSG, and decided that they didn't want any part of what his version of Pern would have been.
 |
Reggie,
Thanks for the tip. I think I will read the first one and see if I like it.  We are the Borg |
Hey
LOB, Reggie has already answered (thanks Reggie ) I agree with him. I would label them as
science fiction, although there are mythological aspects, that comes
from the sci-fi being developed (I won't say more I don't want to spoil
your reading I liked those books a lot,
especially the first ones. Other Anne McCafrey novels I read were all
science fiction.I have read on another thread quotes from a R. Moore interview on that WB 'dragonraiders of Pern' adaptation and I must say its probably a good thing it was canceled because Moore said the WB wanted to turn it into a Xena-kind of show! |
Greenglow,
If they were going to turn it into anything even REMOTELY resembling Xena, they would have lost me! I don't mean to bash Xena, but that was one show that I could just never get interested in. We are the Borg |
Quote:
Well... you gotta admit the women were "interesting". Greenglow: What thread where those RM "Pern" quotes on? I'd like to see them. |
hey all! hope everyones well.
i never got into Xena myself either, but it was never really shown in full in ireland, just a few eps here and there. I sadly dont know many with an interest in roswell, in high school people only knew about it cause i was "spreading Roswellianism" i used to spend ages telling people the whole story which is fairly complicated as we all know! i was voted "most likely to be abducted by aliens" in my senior class last year! but since i started college this year alot of people seem to know about roswell which to me is really cool as it hasnt been shown all that much, everyone seems to say that they couldnt get into it becasue it was too confusing. i guess i kind of understand, i watched from ep 1 so i knew what was going on but most advertising for roswell was really during season 3 here so people started watching end s2/s3 and there were no old repeats so everyone was like what the hells going on. i have tried my best to educate all i meet about the world of roswell though! So hows eveyone? Anyone wanna start something from roswell that we can all try to figure out? im quiet content right now so its up to you guys!! |
Well...
The last thing we were considering was Tess: Mindwarped at the end of MitC by Nikolas, to believe in and follow a (false) "Plan", ostensibly by her father; or evil MindWarping HellBeast (EMHB)? Your thoughts? |
Backtracking
a little: Reggie, the quotes are on the 'Can We Ressurect Roswell?' #1
thread. If it hasn't fall off the boards, that is
Hi DreamingApplesaucer1947 |
Dreaming Applesaucer,
Buy a copy of the Roswell S1 DVDs, and SHOW your friends. I have all three seasons taped, (2) copies of each episode.
I loan them out to people who have never even heard of Roswell.
So far I've made over a dozen converts. 
Mostly, guys in the 55-65 age range.  We are tye borg |
Quote:
|
Shapeshifter,
My wife doesn't allow me to hang out with many younger females, so I can't comment on that. But within my circle of friends, the "hard corps" Roswell fans are males ranging from 55-65, with the 12 year old grandson of one of my friends in the process of becoming a hard corps Roswellian. (At the tender age of 12, he can't seem to decide whether he has the hots for Liz, Maria, or Isabel, or maybe all three. LOL) Reggie, I'm about 1/3 of the way through "Dragonflight" and I've already decided to read the whole series. I didn't realize that Anne Mccaffey had also written "The Ship Who Sang." I read that several decades ago, and I loved it. We are the Borg |
Originally posted by locutus of borg:
But within my circle of friends, the "hard corps" Roswell fans are males ranging from 55-65, with the 12 year old grandson of one of my friends in the process of becoming a hard corps Roswellian. I wonder how the more (sci-fi fans) of them feel about Tess - victim or villianess? Reggie, I'm about 1/3 of the way through "Dragonflight" and I've already decided to read the whole series. I didn't realize that Anne Mccaffey had also written "The Ship Who Sang." I read that several decades ago, and I loved it. Brains and Brawns. Yes, I liked it too... Pity there aren't sequels. For that matter, it'd make a good TV series... not on Sci-Fi though. |
Quote:
Ah, but those are the Romance fans. I'll bet LoB's friends are Science Fiction fans, from Asimov to Zelaney. He's probably not been pressing them with "Season Spew" or "Season Flee". They would have helped search for the Importance of Liz to Alien Mythology. And they probably would all have been hard-core CHADers, too... and if they knew there were well over 650 CHADS, they'd run like mad!  |
I like the first season of Xena, but then interest started to fade.
Why didn't Khivar just posses someone instead of sending Nicholas? |
Musicchild,
good question. I guess we can only theorize. Possibly back when
Nicholas first arrived, the possession "technology" hadn't been
developed. (See the UFL part of the archived silverhandprint.com.)
It would also seem plausible that Nicholas managed to convince Kvar that it was strategically advantageous to have Antarian eyes and ears on Earth to make decisions. Nicholas clearly hated Earth, but he may have initially planned on gaining power by being the Leader on Earth. And/or he may have hoped to get it together with Vilandra. Perhaps he even delayed the Skins finding the Royals until Vilandra was "old enough" to respond to his attentions. And perhaps being trapped in a small, teenage boy's body was Kvar's way of double-crossing Nicholas to keep him in line. Then again, maybe it was Kvar's idea to have Nicholas go to Earth ostensibly to be onsite Antarian eyes and ears for Kvar, while in reality, Kvar's motivation would have been to get Nicholas out of the way. [ 01-12-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Quote:
Well, it surely is a way of answearing that old question... why are the skins stuck on Earth with husks that have a limited life-time and no way whatsoever of getting back to Antar? How did they get to Earth, anyway? Where's the ship they came in? They are supposed to be in contact with Kivar, why can't they call for a ship? Or just for new husks?? |
Actually,
all of the Roswell fans i know are pretty much SciFi/Fantasy fans.
Asimov is worshipped, the other authors are only venerated. (LOL)
What surprised me, though, was that all
of my friends seem fit into three categories. Liz obsessives, Max/Liz
dreamers, and Isabel obsessives. I find that a little strange,
because I thought that M/M and A/I would fit
some of my friends pretty well, but thay all seem to like Liz, Izzie
and Max/Liz.  we are unanimous on one thing though: Tess 
is definitely the villian, definitely not
the victim I don't know if it's age, or what, but
most of us just try to disregard the "chads" and enjoy the show. Perhaps it's just because there's so damn little worth watching on the boob tube these days.We are the Borg [ 01-12-2004: Message edited locutus of borg ] [ 01-12-2004: Message edited locutus of borg ] |
Quote:
And I think age also accounts for our ability to ignore chads. TV in the 60's was total chadland. |
Shapeshifter,
Yeah, age! The older I get the more mistakes I can look back on. And the more mistakes I can look back on, the more tolerant I become of other people's mistakes. Damn shame you have to get old to realize that! (LOL)we are the Borg |
A Reverse MondoPost!
Reggie: Perhaps eventually; but since both Max and Tess are in human bodies, an heir of their flesh would be human. I would expect that such an heir should properly be alien: a "Skin" occupant, a Shapeshifter, a Twylonian, whatever. So, the actual production of an heir should be delayed until both Max and Tess were re-installed in their proper alien bodies (presumably, clones of their original bodies). Resumption of Max's original relationship with his "young bride" is a seperate issue, and could be addressed while they were in any form, human or alien. Actually, an heir did not have to be human. Since Max and Tess were hybrids, the heir could also have been alien or a mix. Production of an heir before being "reinstalled" seemed to be an non-issue since Kivar's desire was for Tess to "return with the heir". It really doesn't matter. Environment was a non-issue because Tess presumably went to Antar with the baby and they both survived the home world atmosphere. So ... baby Zan was all or part of these ... 1. bait for Kivar to get Max 2. a way for Kivar to legitimize his reign with the King Zan supporters while eliminating his rival, Max 3. a way to show the public that Max is an unfit king who can't produce a fit heir In all three cases, Kivar strengthens his position while undermining Max. Resumption of Max's kingly duties with Tess to produce an "heir" may have been critical to secure Kivar's position as King. However, it was also dependent on the need to eliminate Max as the "rightful" King of Antar. For whatever reason, Kivar needed to depose Max/Zan by death, because usurping the King may not have been enough. I see what you mean, but I'm a little more sanguine about figuring things out. Tess can't be "all-powerful", because she's like the other Podsters who aren't. The fireball is explicable as an example of "hysterical strength", which is a familiar human property. Otherwise, we'd have to consider it a straight deus-ex-machina; to extract the Podsters from their defeat by Nikolas's Skins. This would imply that JK and the Moonshine Band were nothing more than unimaginitive hacks who had no better idea. We may never know the answer to this one. Yes, it's possible that this could be hysterical strength or it could have been part of an IV push when Maria short circuits the electro-magnetic rod or it could have been a Tess mindwarp to disguise the future intentions of the Skins and/or Tess. The truth is, as JK is the first to admit, he had never done any sci-fi before so it might just be "a straight deus-ex-machina." But , in the end, Tess' character still remains duplicitious in that her intentions could have been good or evil. Whoa, whoa, whoa! That's a whole lot of assumptions there! You say, "If we believe Tess that the Nasedo Pact was fashioned 40+ years ago", but that's what we're trying to establish. Well, for the moment, I'm taking it as true. We have the words coming straight from Tess in "Departure". Max , Isabel, and Michael believe it. We know that Nasedo left papers behind for Tess. Among the papers, Nasedo could have outlined the Nasedo Pact. By season 3 (off camera), Max and company would have read these papers and could have verified the Nasedo Pact was made. And when Tess returns, she makes no excuses for her behavior in the past ... she doesn't claim mind-warp or duress, but looks for atonement. That suggests that Tess knew and understood that her past actions were of her own doing, not controlled by Nicholas or Kivar. Let's start with what we do and don't know. First, we don't know who killed Atherton or why. If we've got two shapeshifters running around loose, then it could have been either one of them. Since one was captured by the Army (in 1947), they likely lost touch with each other. Tic-tac could have been cultivating Atherton (and River Dog) as allies, and Harding killed Atherton because he'd "discovered" too much and was publishing it. But we do know. Have you forgotten that Tess tells the pod squad that they need to get the healing stones from Riverdog after Nasedo is shot and Michael, Isabel, Maria, and Tess are fleeing Eagle Rock in the Jeep (Destiny)? Tess says Nasedo told her about Riverdog. Based on this info, Nasedo is the shapeshifter who connected with Riverdog. Riverdog only says "the man" (meaning "the visitor"-"Nasedo") killed Atherton. Unless there is some other piece of hard evidence, Nasedo is the one who killed Atherton. Something similar could have happened with Sheila Harding; or one of them could have thought she was a Skin. We know that the Army was persuing aliens, and that the Army does not have civilian police power. (See "posse comitatus laws".) It's appropriate and likely that after the initial Roswell investigation wound up, the persuit was handed off to the FBI. Since J. Edgar Hoover was in charge for ages, it's also possible that the head (and staff) of the alien-hunting unit would also be retained over the years. It makes security simpler, after all. ... We don't know why Sheila Harding died. It did attract the attention of the FBI, though. Who benefited? This may be why someone started to kill the Special Unit agents; they were closing in, and Harding (?) had to defend himself. It could even be that she was killed by a Skin, to incriminate one of the shapeshifters or just to "prime the pump" somehow. It did get her husband going, and that created another problem for the aliens. I'm inclined to think Sheila was just , as Hubble said, "in the wrong place at the wrong time". We have nothing to indicate that Sheila was a Skin. However, we do know that Nasedo was also responsible for Sheila's murder. We know this from Liz's kiss with Maxcedo. In it, she receives flashes from Nasedo which show us the dead body of Sheila lying on the ground at Pepper's Cafe. Certainly, it appears Nasedo was being chased. Hubble suggests he wanted the car, but Nasedo doesn't take the car. So maybe it had nothing to do with the car. Maybe Sheila catches Nasedo shapeshifting and is forced to kill her. He can't leave a witness. She could not have been killed by a Skin because they didn't leave silver handprints on their victims; they left a pentagram. Again, it's true that the military is not supposed to be a "civilian police force." But Nasedo, Tic-Tac, or Langley had killed soldiers in 1947. By murdering US soldiers and having been detained by military forces, it's possible that the military stayed involved and didn't close the case. They may have considered it a military matter. Plus, the murder of Sheila Hubble may have been the grounds for establishing the the Special Unit. Wasn't the first head of the Special Unit killed in 1972? This would be when the Silo murder took place (when Hubble kills the drifter he thinks is Nasedo). It makes more sense if the Skins, once they had established themselves, used the pre-existing FBI unit to find the podsters. As long as the natives are doing the work, why not let them? I agree that probably the Skins enlisted in humans to do most of the tracking, however, I will refer to the Whitaker diaries which specifically states that the Skins were infiltrating important positions, including government. By placing themselves in key positions, it gave Skins the position to gather information without having to actually do it themselves. Or they could put out information and let such organizations like "the Special Unit" take it from there. Since Nikolas had "Nacedo", and could mindrape him to find out the location of The Granolyth and all the Podsters, why deal? Why wait? Interrogate him, and kill them or bring them home for disposal. The Skins get home before there's any problem with their husks. Sounds good to me! I'm not sure that Nasedo knew where the Granilith was. In the papers that Nasedo left behind for Tess, Max mentions the key for the spaceship and when Max reads it , says (paraphrase) "this is our only way to communicate with home." This clearly isn't true. The have the orbs, which are communicators, and they have the Granilith. If Nasedo knew this information, he certainly would have told Tess. But clearly, Tess knew nothing about the orbs and Nasedo apparently didn't know how the orbs worked. It appears that Nasedo didn't know about the orbs or the Granilith. If Nasedo was captured by Nicholas, he could have done a mind-rape and got nothing because Nasedo knew nothing. Are the "Whitaker diaries" canon? I've heard of them; never bothered to read them as that site seemed more like fanfic than anything else. And Ava referred to her "Protector", not Nikolas or any skin. There's too much missing info about the Dupes; it could even be that the Dupes sought out the Skins, to bargain for a trip home. Clearly, Lonnie was working on that possibility. The Whitaker diaries" were part of thesilverhandprint.com, an official website put out by the WB during second season. Its purpose, I understand, was to include a little backstory on the dupes and Kivar. It also gave as insight into the missing Milton, and material about Alex's trip to Sweden. It also includes the Senate Commission hearings and notes between Agts. Duff and Topolsky. Since it was put out by the WB, I consider this as a viable place to look for clues. shapeshifter has reconstructed the site for our benefit. We've believed that Tic-tac had been "around" for some time. It could just as easily be that Tic-tac was making the original light show (in ITW), to alert Harding that it was time to come in from the cold, and bring Tess. He may have had no other way to contact Harding, since he moved around so much. (Both Shapeshifters knew about all the Podsters from the beginning, of course!) The reply by Michael on the Library lawn may have been unexpected by the shapeshifters; but a Skin agent (local, or sent in) would have recognised it, and reacted with malice. Since CongresSkin Whitaker had been in the area, it makes sense to believe that there were other Skins around; and that they had photos or "artist's concepts" of the podsters. There is no need to suppose one of the Shapeshifters is a double agent, when there are legitimate villains in the game. Yes, it is possible that there are other alternatives here, but we can't dismiss the fact that one of the shapeshifters could have been a double agent, especially with the Nasedo Pact in play. Nasedo could easily be considered a legitimate villian in the game. As King, it's Max's prerogative to take a wife without a veto by his retainers. Put that way, Mr. Harding would have submitted; especialy since Tess and Kyle were developing a relationship. With Tess provided for and happy, honor would be satisfied; and the eight could have proceded to fulfill whatever destinies awaited them. While it is Max's perogative to choose a wife, the question that comes into play is "was Max free to choose?" According the the mom-o-gram, Max/Zan was already married and in the eyes of Nasedo, he also considered Max married to Tess. Nasedo wasn't living by Earth rules, he was living by Antarian rules. Max's/Zan's marriage to Tess/Ava was fact. Liz becomes the "other woman" and would not have been accepted. Had Nasedo determined that Tess' relationship with Kyle was in any way serious, I suspect he might have discouraged it as well. However, it appears Tess considered Kyle not as a serious romance, but a "boy toy" to sastify her frustrations and/or to use for her own self interests ... unfortunately for us. Kyle and Tess were great together. They had great dialogue and some real chemistry. [ 01-15-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 01-15-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 01-15-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 01-15-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
shapeshifter:
Your Welsh Red Dragon is also associated with Arthurian lore. The Red Dragon is the symbol of Uther Pendragon, the father of King Arthur. Since Max is referred to "The Once and Future King", we again have another reference to Max as a modern version of King Arthur However, the Red Dragon, is also associated with Liz (as you pointed out, there is a Red Dragon on her window). It also ties Liz to Arthurian lore. The connection also binds Liz closer to Max. The Red Dragon, in the case, represents The Goddess of Sovereignty, often described as "the dark one". This could be a reference to Liz's dark hair and eyes. More importantly, the Goddess of Sovereignty is directly connected to King Arthur for the Goddess is associated with "the land" and the secret to the Holy Grail is that "the land and the King are one." One cannot live without the other. So this reference could be construed that Max cannot live with Liz and Liz cannot live with Max. In the larger sense and simply put, they represent the balance which makes life fruitful, prosperous, fulfilled. I'll be posting more about this on my website in the future. |
Momo,
thank you for the Arthurian explanations about the dragon and Roswell.
I could read Arthurian references forever and have never made the
Roswellian connection, but I knew it was there. I'll be looking forward
to what you will put on your site, and maybe link to it from the Archetypes page of the Archives.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quote:
Quote:
[ 01-16-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Quote:
Is it just me or it seems that JK was absolutely clueless about what was really on the site? |
Can someone refresh my memory? Was there ever much discussion about "The Butterfly Effect" in connection with Liz?
Thanks! |
Greenglow, good point about JK most likely not really ever knowing what was there.
Momo, are you refering to butterfly symbolism and Liz's metamorphosis 
or to the physics concept known as "the butterfly effect" (about which I know nothing), i.e.: Quote:
|
I'm
refering to "the butterfly effect" and/or the chaos theory and Liz's
importance to the mythology ... that Liz is the "butterfly" in "the
butterfly effect" and that is one of the reasons we see the butterfly
motif on her clothes (skirts, robe, etc.) and in her room. I don't
remember reading much on it and I wondered if it had been discussed
early on. It's something that Alas and I and others had discussed on
the old WB board, I think, but I'm not sure it was preserved anywhere.
I just wanted to refresh my memory or find a copy of the thread.
|
The "butterfly" in the Butterfly Effect is really any random action. I'd hardly call Liz's actions random. Max, perhaps...
And I see that they've made Tic-tacs 30% larger now. Will that make our favorite shapeshifter more likely to change form? Or just gain weight? Do "we" know yet if there will be any Lizology-type goodies on the DVDs when they come out? |
Reggie,
I agree that Liz's actions are usually not random, but I don't think
that disqualifies them from playing the role of the butterfly. The mark
of a chaotic system is large-scale sensitivity to local small changes,
regardless whether such changes are random or otherwise. (But if even
if the changes are purposeful, their effect on the chaotic part of a
system will be unpredictable.)
About the DVD's: I too am eager to see whether there are new details that look significant. But at least I will get a better look at the old ones. [ 01-25-2004: Message edited Nemo ] |
Yay! Nemo's still around!
If you're still here,
can you tell me if your wife was the creator of this cake, and, if so,
what was the date/occasion, or, if not, do you know who did make it? 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Re: the Butterfly Effect I did a little Googling and came up with several references to Liz and the Butterfly Effect--all in relation to TEOTW, which is what comes to my mind when considering Liz and the BE. I agree with both Reggie and Nemo that Liz's actions were generally very well-thought out and purposeful--though not always wise, thus the potentially disasterous butterfly effects generated, e.g. Alex's death. So, are we considering that Liz is some sort of BE generator? [ 01-24-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Welcome (back), Nemo!
I think that Life On Earth qualifies as a "BE generator". It was "random" that Max met Liz, and that they connected however they did in 3rd Grade. I'm sure that the aliens expected their Zan would be living among the Earthlings, but I doubt that he was supposed to get involved with them. I suspect that he was to remain single, and somehow unfulfilled, until he was reunited with his "Young Bride". Since they'd been raised seperately, there would be no Kibbutz Effect, and he could/would look upon her as a prospective girlfriend and wife. Kibbutz Effect: children raised communally relate to each other as siblings, even though they are not blood kin. Thus, Michael and Isabel saw each other as siblings, and their previous linkage (as dreamed of) was just too icky to resume. And I would have posted my rant, "TNoEvil.txt", but I seem to have had a write error on that hard disk... I assure you it's very well thought out, and would convince LoB and friends that Tess was not evil, but a victim. Maybe later... |
shapeshifter,
The cake in the picture was made by Remo Borracchini�s, a Mediterranean market and bakery in Seattle renowned for cakes and decorating. The Antarian swirl pattern was drawn by Rachelle (who posted on the early Science Fiction threads as Leneba, later as Lionspaw). The picture was taken by our illustrious Zero, founder of the Liz/Myth threads. The occasion was a Roswell fan party in Bellingham (WA) on 15 Dec 2000, organized by Lisa B�ham, who was a moderator here in early days. There had been earlier Roswell parties, in Seattle (Feb 2000 -- first one in North America) and Vancouver BC (May 2000) where I had met Lisa and some of the other moderators (Drcy and Moonfire), but this party was the first one in Lisa�s home town. As I recall, she had recently retired from moderator duties, and I wanted to show some appreciation for her work, so I brought the cake for her party as a surprise. (There were two more Bellingham parties later, with a similar cake each time, but I think the decorations turned out best on this first one.) There was a picture of the occasion on Liz thread #32. [ 01-26-2004: Message edited Nemo ] |
As
for whether I'm still around here: I've never been away (not for more
than a few days at a time), but lately I don't have much to post about.
(Besides the show being over, I've been putting in more time at work
and with the Seattle Symphonic Band. A few weeks ago I got to play the
trombone solo in Ariane Overture, a gorgeous lyrical part that
runs about two minutes -- my first solo performance with that band or
any other -- and it went very well, my section leader and the conductor
were pleased. This has no connection at all with Roswell,
except that it was in the key of Ab Major (4 flats), like that scale on
the blackboard behind Liz in the "Up North" scene in the Pilot.)
 [ 01-26-2004: Message edited Nemo ] |
hey!
that picture of the cake reminded me of when graduation aired and i had
a party, the room was full of sweets like lil ufos, and decorations in
the theme of the Roswell high colors, blue and yellow, and i even got a
cake made, that had roswell graduation on it!! oh sweet memories!!
still didnt stop me crying though!
|
My
reference to Liz as "the butterfly" does not refer to her own actions,
but what "happens" to Liz. The randomness stems from Liz being shot.
Had Liz not been shot, then Max would not have healed her. He would
have kept his distance and worshipped Liz from afar. Liz being shot is
what sends the ripples or flapping of wings in motion. It's the point
when all the characters leave "normal." Everything changes from that
moment and the "planned" destinies of all the characters change. That
may be why Liz is so closely identified with the butterfly.
|
Nemo, thanks for the cake info! And glad to hear you're doing well on the music scene.
Momo, thanks for clarifying about the Butterfly Effect. I always preferred to think of the Max/Liz thing as a random occurance, rather than the result of some previous life encounter. But that never stopped me from theorizing about past life possibilities on the Mythology threads. I saw a lot of links to a fanfic by Alas with Butter Fly Effect in the title. Have you read it? |
I forgot what I was going to post, and now I suddenly want a piece of cake.
Ed Harding never downed Tic Tac's like the other one did right? He was probably a spy working for Khivar, and was killed by the skins when they had no use for him. |
shapeshifter:
Yes, I have read Alas' "The Butterfly Effect". It was based on the
premise of what if Liz hadn't been saved by Max. She eventually posted
in the fanfics on the blu board. I thought it was very good.
I know what you mean. I'm always turning the story around looking at different perspectives on the mythologies of all the characters. |
musicchild, love
the sense of humor And the theory! Momo, I just read her fanfic. It is very well written. And definitely falls into the "what should have been" category. And in the vein of "should've's," here's the Roswell portion of Ron Moore's recent interview. And here's a desktop February calendar:  [ 01-28-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
I
read that interview part about Roswell. Every time R. Moore opens his
mouth about Roswell is more evident that they screw the show up for
absolutely no good reason... they had no major plan, no plot layed
down, nothing! Just went to where the wind blowed! That really explains
a lot about all the crap we took on S2 and S3 but its disapointing...
|
I had the opportunity to watch parts of Crazy and TLV today before I went to work.
I noticed something new. Michael is joined by the gang in his attempt to meet with Topolsky at Buckley Point, but Valenti and Dr. Margolis/Nasedo/ intercept them before she arrives. "Dr. Margolin" tells them:
Then, in TLV, we learn that Topolsky is killed in a fire in Maryland, which Valenti believes was caused purposely to silence her. So, what does this tell us about Nasedo?
|
The
impression I got from Crazy and TVL is that Pierce, not Nasedo was
responsible for Topolsky's death. Topolsky is aware that the Special
Unit is on to her. She has taken the communicator from the FBI vaults
(and stupidly has signed for it in the inventory control from the
silverhandprint.com). So the Special Unit knows she has it. Pierce, of
course, will want it back. We also know that Topolsky, while being
"debriefed" in Maryland, was tortured or forced to reveal info on the
pod squad.
We know she had possession of the second communicator (signed it out from the FBI according to silverhandprint.com), but we don't know if that was before or after her admission to the mental hospital. However, taking the communicator to the pod squad is a death sentence. Topolsky knew that Pierce would kill her. And she did leave a trail of credit card info that led to Roswell . It
wouldn't have taken any brain surgery to trace her.And if Nasedo wanted to kill Topolsky, why go through an elaborate charade when he could have easily fried her in Roswell anytime he wanted? This smacks more of The Special Unit who would have had to create an "accidental" death to cover their tracks. But it does lead to some interesting points. Topolsky, even though a Special Agent recruit, seemed interested in helping the pod squad and was generally benign. Nasedo, up until Crazy, seemed to leave her alone. But once Topolsky has the second communicator, she possibly becomes dangerous to Nasedo. With the communicators, Max and company have access to their home world. Perhaps Nasedo never intended to have the pod squad find the second communicator at all? Perhaps with the two communicators, Nasedo was afraid he might lose control of his "charges". And it brings up the question again about Nasedo's whereabouts. We know he worked for the government, but why would the military visit and guard an empty house for a low-security level employee? There's more to Ed Harding's job than we've seen. For Ed Harding to know about what's going on with Topolsky, the Special Unit, and Roswell, he either had to be on-scene, have a inside shapeshifter or plant, or have communicational access (electronic surveillance, paper trail of documentation, etc). Since Tess claims Nasedo never left her for extended periods of time, another shapeshifter or access seem to be the alternatives. Armed with intel, he could have shapeshifted into Margolin. The question would be how he knew that Topolsky arranged to meet Michael at Buckley Point? |
Momo, shapeshifter, and everyone! I agree with you, Momo, that Pierce was responsible for Topolsky's death.Quote:
Nasedo/Ed Harding was a shapeshifter. He could impersonate anyone, including their voice. He didn�t even have to appear in person to access information. He could get information via computer or phone calls. Nasedo knew what the Special Unit knew. That�s how he knew Topolsky was in Roswell, with the orb. (More headlights appear. Sheriff Valenti and Dr. Margolin step out of their respective vehicles) DOCTOR: I'm sorry, but Ms. Topolsky won't be meeting you tonight...or any other night. MICHAEL: So she wasn't lying. You killed her, and now you're here to kill us? SHERIFF: No, Michael. He's not. This man is from Bethesda, Maryland. His name is Dr. Malcolm Margolin. He stopped by my office this morning...explained a few things about Ms. Topolsky. DOCTOR: I've been treating Kathleen for the last 6 weeks. SHERIFF: Dr. Margolin is a psychiatric specialist. DOCTOR: She had a breakdown. She's paranoid delusional. That means that she's desperately afraid of things that don't exist...to the point that she makes up elaborate scenarios to justify the fears that she has. SHERIFF: Doctor tells me that Ms. Topolsky was in a facility in Bethesda until a few days ago when she just took off. DOCTOR: We traced her credit card here to Roswell, and when I caught up with her she was hysterical...talking about meeting you around here...something about an orb. The Sheriff said he knew you, and that you'd had trouble with her in the past. I didn't want anything to happen to you out here. SHERIFF: I checked it all out. The doctor is who he says he is, and Topolsky spent the last month in a mental hospital. I think it's safe to disregard anything she's been saying...to any of us. DOCTOR: I'm sorry to have caused you this inconvenience. And don't worry about Kathleen. She should be back in Bethesda by now under the best care available. So please, no more late-night trips to the middle of nowhere. Anything could be out here, and I'd hate to see any harm come to you on our account. SHERIFF: Thank you, Doctor. I'm sure we'll all sleep better. So it's over. You can go home now. Quote:
Nasedo knew that Topolsky wanted to meet with the podsters. (Otherwise, Topolsky had no reason to be in Roswell, with the orb.) Nasedo may not have known that Tolposky wanted to meet at Buckley Point. Or, Nasedo might have known from the Special Unit that Topolsky headed that way. Or Nasedo might have tipped off the Special Unit that Topolsky would be there, after he talked to the podsters on the road that led to Buckley Point. Nasedo talked with the Sheriff in the morning. Michael left with Maria that night. Liz, Max, Isabel, and Alex followed in the jeep. Nasedo may have alerted Valenti at that point. They trailed the jeep, which sped ahead to catch up with Michael. (There was only one road up to Buckley Point.) After the jeep stopped where Maria and Michael had stopped, Valenti and Dr. Margolin caught up. Nasedo/Dr. Margolin�s primary purpose in meeting with Max, Michael, and Isabel was to discredit anything Topolsky told them about the orb. Nasedo emphasized that Topolsky was crazy. [ 01-30-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Citrus! As usual, good points.
Quote:
I agree. Topolsky had no other reason to be in Roswell and I do believe Nasedo tipped off the Special Unit. But there is the problem of how he knew Topolsky would be at Buckley Point. The bug had been removed from Michael's apartment, so that's out. Topolsky only told Michael. Michael told Maria, no one else. Maria left the note for Liz to find who in turn tells Max. That's the chain of evidence. At this point, Nasedo is out of the loop. The only possible way that Nasedo could have known is through Maria's order book which was left behind at the Crashdown. So it may have come down like this. Nasedo breaks into the Crashdown after it closes, finds Maria's notebook, puts two and two together, phones the Special Unit, then goes to Valenti. By tipping off the Special Unit first, this is perhaps the only way Nasedo/Margolin would know that Topolsky would be on her way back to Bethesda. By intercepting the pod squad first, it clears the decks for Topolsky to show up at the appointed time, then for the Special Unit to pick her up. ... And, as a bonus, the second orb returns to the Special Unit, away from Max. |
Quote:
But still, wouldn't Nasedo have worried about Pierce getting info about the podsters from her? Quote:
And how would Nasedo tipping off Pierce about Topolsky fit with this later revelation from Max to the Max? Quote:
|
Quote:
Nasedo was most concerned about the podsters. So he watched them. Since there were four of them, he could not watch all four at once. Nasedo evidently wasn�t focused on Michael, when Michael left the caf� with Maria, because Nasedo/Dr. Margolin and the Sheriff didn�t follow immediately after them. Nasedo/Dr. Margolin and the Sheriff followed after the jeep, which contained Max and Isabel (as well as Alex and Liz.) So Nasedo was evidently focusing his attention on Max and/or Isabel. Most likely, since Max brought Liz back from death (a power unique to Max as King), Nasedo was following Max. Since the four of them left in a hurry, Nasedo notified the Sheriff, so Nasedo/Dr. Margolin could stop them and convince them to avoid Topolsky. The road only went to Buckley Point. That's how Nasedo could surmise that Topolsky would be meeting them there. (Max, Liz, Isabel, and Alex are in the jeep, hot on Michael's trail MAX: There's only one road up here.) ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote:
If that had been a concern to Nasedo, then it seems likely that he would have killed Topolsky immediately or as soon as possible, before Pierce had time to interrogate her. As it was, Topolsky died after some time had elapsed, in the next week, following her visit to Roswell. Pierce already had time to get information from Topolsky. (SHERIFF: Doctor, has anything happened since our meeting last week that makes you think this fire might have been set to do her harm?) Pierce most likely had Topolsky killed or killed her himself, because he had gotten all the information he could from her, and he didn't want to risk her escaping again. ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote:
That dialog occurred after Nasedo scolded Tess for bringing Max, Michael, and Isabel to the podchamber. NASEDO: How could you bring them up here like this? You know the Special Unit is close. You saw that camera. Who do you think put it on them in the first place? Our friend, Pierce. TESS: Oh yeah, so why don�t you just kill him? According to Max, you�ve done that before. NASEDO: What has he been telling you? You�re going to trust him over me? Listen, you and I have spent a lot of time together. Now I don�t want to say we�re family� TESS: You�re not my family. You never will be. Max, Michael and Isabel are. NASEDO: Fine. Go have your little reunion. If I have to kill people, I kill people. Pierce is dangerous. You all still need me if you expect to survive him. TESS: You�re really scared of Pierce, aren�t you? More than the others. NASEDO: He�s smarter. He�s closer to the four of you than anyone�s ever been. In the scene, Nasedo is attempting to regain control over Tess. Tess has acted without his knowledge or consent, by bringing Max, Michael, and Isabel to the podchamber. Nasedo can�t afford to have Tess work against him, or he won�t be able to carry out his deal with Kivar. Nasedo is afraid that Tess trusts Max over him. Nasedo once again pulls the old fear line on Tess, to get her back under his control. Nasedo says Pierce is �closer to the four of you than anyone�s ever been.� However, Pierce knew nothing of Tess. Tess� name wasn�t on his list. Pierce and the Special Unit didn�t know about Tess or Ed Harding. In the white room, Pierce shows Max images of Michael, Isabel, Maria, and Alex, and an image of Liz dead. Tess' image isn't among the images. Tess is unknown to Pierce. Pierce didn�t know about Tess at all. But Nasedo pretended to Tess all her life that the Special Unit was after her. She believed that was why they had to move so often. Nasedo terrorized Tess with stories of the Special Unit. That�s why Tess wanted to go to Antar (home) more than anything else. ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote:
Since Nasedo knew all about Topolsky being in Roswell with the orb, it seems likely that he also knew that Pierce was trying to find Topolsky. Topolsky waited with the orb at Buckley Point to meet Michael. Pierce and other agents showed up. They may have been trailing Topolsky, or they may have been tipped off by Nasedo that she might be there. If they had actually been trailing her, it seems possible that they might have captured her, before she reached Buckley Point. On the other hand, they may have been watching her and waiting. When no one showed up to meet her, then they might have decided to take her in. [ 01-31-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
I have some more thoughts on Nasedo's motives, but for now:
jero has patiently rewatched every episode and noted from the credits the names of the producers, directors, and writers. They are now formatted for the web and uploaded here for your perusal and to feed discussions of how different personalities with different visions altered the course of the story: Roswell Producers, Directors, and Writers Perhaps there is a pattern there that explains Nasedo's (and other characters) variable behaviors. |
I have some more thoughts on Nasedo's motives, but for now:
jero has patiently rewatched every episode and noted from the credits the names of the producers, directors, and writers. They are now formatted for the web and uploaded here for your perusal and to feed discussions of how different personalities with different visions altered the course of the story: Roswell Producers, Directors, and Writers Perhaps there is a pattern there that explains Nasedo's (and other characters) variable behaviors. |
While
it's possible that Pierce may not have known about Tess, I think it's
probable that they did know about Tess. I don't think Tess was lying
about that.
The list of people Topolsky refers to as "on "he list" were people Topolsky had direct contact with, names she recognized. Since Topolsky left Roswell before Ed Harding and Tess showed up in Roswell, she would not have recognized the Hardings even if they were on the list because she had not interacted with him. As far as the holograms, Pierce pre-selected these people because they were important to Max. Max did not consider Tess a friend and that may be why she was excluded. Max had genuine feelings for Liz, Isabel, Michael, Maria and Alex. At the time, Max distrusted Tess so Pierce could have considered Tess as non-influential and dismissed her. |
Momo! I agree with you that Pierce selected people connected with Max in an attempt to get to Max.However, Tess wasn�t considered to be an alien by Pierce at all. Nasedo lied to Tess about that. Nasedo lied to Tess, when he said, �He�s (Pierce�s) closer to the four of you than anyone�s ever been.� Pierce didn�t know about Tess or Nasedo-Ed Harding. Tess wasn�t associated with Max. She also wasn�t considered to be an alien. Isabel spent time with Tess, but, again, Tess wasn�t under suspicion. Alex, in contrast, was on the list, as was Maria. Alex and Maria had been at the hospital, when Max was in the hospital. Tess was new in town. Pierce was an alien hunter. Tess couldn�t change shape. Pierce didn�t know about Tess from the past or from the present. Nasedo lied to Tess. Pierce wasn't watching Tess. He didn't show Max her picture or ask Max about Tess. Pierce thought Max was an alien. Pierce was an alien hunter. He had studied all the records on aliens from the past. Pierce had no suspicions that Tess was an alien, too. Again, Nasedo lied to Tess her entire life about the Special Unit being after her. Nasedo wanted Tess to hate Earth, so she would go to Antar, and so she would carry out the deal Nasedo had with Kivar. Nasedo convinced Tess that he was protecting her. screencap from Momo's Roswell [ 02-01-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
I'm
still working on my <explitive deleted> computer. I've
just "upgraded" to Win98, Second Edition. It misplaced COM 1 for a
while, and so it wasn't recognising my modem. Hard to get online,
without the modem...
So I've just read the thread. First objection is to calling "Dr. Margolin" Nacedo. This shapeshifter is definitely Tic-Tac, not Ed Harding. Remember, EH has a job, and is babysitting Tess elsewhere. This shapeshifter is the one who takes tic-tacs after he shapeshifts, and is fatherly-protective toward the podsters. More later... |
I
just got caught up on this thread so now I have a question about the
"Butterfly Effect". I was under the impression that it is an action
that sets up a chain reaction of other events. Is that what is being
discussed here? James Gleick in "Chaos" quotes an older version of the
same concept. It's from a nursery rhyme.
"For want of a nail, the shoe was lost; For want of a shoe, the horse was lost; For want of a horse, the rider was lost; For want of a rider, the battle was lost; For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost! All for the want of a nail." That comparison seems random but it doesn't have to be. It's an action that sets up a chain reaction. The final action is the result of the original action. But, in my opinion, at any point, an intervention could change the outcome. Such as FMax coming back in time to change the outcome of the war between Earth and Earth's enemies. That means the future is not set because free will allows for multiple possible outcomes. I'm getting into "Terminator" territory now but there is a comparison. "Our fate is what we make" compared to "We are who we choose to be." As an aside, now I have to have a Roswell cake. And Reggie, I agree, that Tess isn't evil. There are undercurrents flowing through this whole story and I hope we haven't seen the last of Tess yet. That is if there ever is anymore of the story. |
Hi Algieba and Reggie!
Reggie, the tic-tac eating shapeshifter wasn�t �fatherly� and he didn�t �protect� anyone. Nasedo/Dr. Margolin shapeshifted into the hitchhiker, who ate some tic tacs, as he walked away from the car he had been in. Nasedo/Dr. Margolin didn�t help the podsters. He warned them off from Topolsky and the orb. The orbs were designed for the podsters to use. Nasedo/Dr. Margolin didn�t go to them or identify himself. He didn�t warn them about Pierce or the Special Unit. Nasedo/Dr. Margolin only wanted the podsters to stay away from Kathleen Topolsky, who had the other orb. Nasedo/Ed Harding likewise didn�t want the podsters to use the orbs, even though the orbs were specifically designed for them to use when they wanted to use them. Nasedo/Hank/guy-with-the-goatee-and-earring also didn�t help the podsters. Michael was already entirely in the clear about Hank�s disappearance. Nasedo had killed Hank and framed Michael. If Nasedo had wanted to protect Michael, he would have gone to Hank as a policeman and taken Hank away quietly. Instead, Nasedo made certain that Michael got arrested for what happened in the trailer. Nasedo/Hank didn�t get Michael out of jail. Nasedo/Hank went to the Sheriff to establish that Hank was alive, so Nasedo again could frame Michael at a later date for Hank�s murder. (If the shapeshifter had been �fatherly�, we would expect him to provide Michael with a home. Instead, the shapeshifter took away the trailer that had been Michael�s home.) Nasedo/Hank/guy-with-the-cowboy-hat-and-the-goatee-and-the earring sent Max and Liz home. He didn�t identify himself. He didn�t help Max. He didn�t protect Max. The orb had sent out a beam of light. Nasedo didn�t want anyone who might help Max to find Max via the beam signal. That�s why Nasedo/guy-with-the-hat-and-the-earring insisted that Max leave the area. |
Most
likely the various writers had different ideas about shapeshifters, and
this alone explains Nasedo's incomprehensible personality and motives.
But, believing that the story of Roswell has a life of its own (something like the idea in Douglas Adams' novels that everything is a representation of the universe) I think that the quotes below speak to the need for a unification theory for Roswell: 1. The script claims Nasedo is TicTac. I wanted to say "alledged" Nasedo, but decided to let the quote stand on it's own merit-- Quote:
Quote:
3. But irregardless of Tictac ingestion, Nasedo was always mercurial-- Quote:
 I now suggest that both Nasedo and Tess were, on various occasions, possessed by evil minions of Kvar. |
Quote:
Yes, the action we were speaking of what the moment when Liz gets shot. That is the action that sets up the chain reaction. |
While
it may be true that we were given the second shapeshifter, Cal, because
of our TicTac-eating shapeshifter, I think we also must consider the
original folklore/myth of the Roswell Crash which always claimed that
two aliens were taken alive, one which supposedly died shortly after
and the other kept in captivity well into the 1950s.
These two aliens take on the role of our Roswellian shapeshifters (with modifications). Instead of one alien who dies in captivity, we have an alien who escapes; the other remains in captivity for three years before what? they let him go? he escapes? he's rescued? What we have is the CHAD of one shapeshifter who consumes TicTacs who is not easily identifible ... thus the possibility of a third shapeshifter. If Cal had not claimed that he had not shapeshifted, I could have gone with Cal and TicTac as being the same shapeshifter. Cal acquired a taste for human food and liked strong flavors. Peppermint might have been one. However, TicTac clearly shapeshifted and Cal says he didn't, so that left Nasedo as the prime candidate. But Nasedo never ate TicTacs when shapeshifting. So what do we have ... two or three shapeshifters. It's the same old debate. If we go back to original NM ufology, then between the three alleged crashes, there were up to 12 possible aliens and possibily three living. If the writers were following the folklore, then maybe, yes, there is a third shapeshifter. But what if there wasn't a third shapeshifter? Is there another option? Well, I got to thinking about the act of shapeshifting and how it's done. When Nasedo as Ed Harding shapeshifted, he never ate TicTacs., but TicTac always did. What was different. Then it hit me. When TicTac shapeshifts, he never returns to his base form. When Nasedo shapeshifts, he always returns to his base form ... that of Ed Harding . So is it possible that the need to eat TicTacs is only required when a shapeshifter morphs from one individual to another (i.e. Hispanic guy to Hank; Dr. Margolin to hiker) and not when he starts from/returns to his base form (i.e. Nasedo to clown; Pierce to Nasedo). If that is the case then we may be able to establish a case that Nasedo and TicTac are one and the same. What do you think? [ 02-03-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 02-03-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
...maybe Tic-Tac was finded way how not trap consequenses of shapeshifting, thous what Kal feared?
Nasedo didnt care, he even liked return to basic him, be original alien. It's was in the show: 3 shapeshifters remain alive, one was killed....but maybe he survived somehow? Nasedo was killer so was Kal and even Tic-Tac killed human...so what this tells us about shapeshifters? Any of them, any can be handprint murder od murder of Atherton. |
From White Room:
Vihmakass! You always have good ideas that make sense!Or maybe the "tictacs" prevent the effects of shapeshifting that Kal wanted to avoid. Maybe Nasedo used them so Skins (like Congresswoman Whitaker) wouldn't be able to tell he wasn't human? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On the silverhandpring site there is one symbol which they never linked to pages: 
It is clearly the "four square" symbol. Maybe it was going to have more
Antarian back story? Interestingly (to me, at least), the file name of
the image is "circle_sliced25." I suppose this just might refer to the
way the image was made in Photoshop, but the others have names refering
to the content of the pages, like dupes.gif: I don't suppose anyone has a copy of an earlier version of the opening silverhandprint.com page before they linked all the other symbols? [ 02-06-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
shapeshifter:
Can't help you there, but I do believe it was intended to be "the Royal
Four". Since they had a "Dupes" icon, I figured this would be used for
Max, Isabel, Michael, and Tess to dinstinguish the two sets of pods.
However, maybe you can help me.... Did Agent Brian Roll ever make an appearance in Roswell? I've accounted for most of the S.U. agents mentioned on the silverhandprint site save Agt. Roll. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The silverhandprint site lists three items that were taken from the Special Unit vault on April 8, 2000. 1. Agent Brian Roll checks out the uniform at 8:12 a.m. It's never checked back in. So is this when and how Meta-Chem gets Liz's uniform? And who is Brian Roll? 2. Agent Topolsky checks out the orb communicator at 3:14 p.m. That's easily traceable. Topolsky brings it to Roswell and the pod squad winds up eventually recovering it from Pierce in "The White Room". 3. Agent Pierce checks out an unidentified "stone" known as item 87K1 at 5:04 p.m. and it is never returned. What is it and where is it? Could this be the key to the Granilith? I thought it was interesting that several pieces were all checked out on the same day. Then there's the question of how Topolsky even checked it out. Topolsky had been released from her assignment (Project W. Roswell High) on 19 Nov. 1999, debriefed under duress, then taken to the mental hospital in Bethesda. She escapes from the mental hospital and manages to withdraw the orb from the vault six months later? The Special Unit wasn't too bright and never was Topolsky! Then again, Kathleen probably wasn't
thinking too clearly at this point any way. But Pierce certainly would
have picked up on it (which he obviously did having checked out the
stone shortly thereafter).But what could have triggered this mass withdrawal of material from the vault on Apr. 8? In addition to all the above, two pieces of crash metal and a bio material (gandarium?) were withdrawn also, but returned. Is there something in the timeline I missed? Thanks! [ 02-08-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
Quote:
Brian Roll was a production coordinator on Roswell. So, can we assume they never intended to actually have someone play that part? I doubt that they would use someone's name for a character, unless, like Thania St. John, the person was playing him or herself. Ooooo! I just realized something. Brian Roll was probably one of the creators of the silverhandprint website! Or...maybe he was a bit of a slave driver boss or a pilferer of set mementos, and the website creators who worked under him were just having a little fun with his name. [ 02-08-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
shapeshifter:
How did I miss that one!
Roswell is
loaded with references to staff members. You just have to look for them.I was just thinking in terms of the story that it could explain how Liz's uniform wound up at Meta-Chem. Dress taken from the vault, never returned. Lots of possibilities that go back to the Wheeler-Coleman conspiracy theory. |
Momo, it definitely fills that plot hole nicely.
And as this thread grows, I am appreciate more and more Reggie's title choice. |
Yes, it is, isn't it.
By the way, I thought you might like to know that Agt. Roll's new project, "Endgame", is in development with Sean's Connery's starring as a CIA agent. He's just changed agencies. |
Quote:
 Just passing through. Glad you like the title. The "Nacedo" your script quote connects to, is definitely Tic-tac. But then, Dr. M was known to be a Tic-tac persona. Do we have any connection between "Nacedo" and Mr. Harding? I remember that Tess refers to her father as "Nacedo, that's what you call him, right?" (Emphasis mine.) She was quoting the podsters, not identifying him by a name that he'd been using. There is also the matter of the "healing stones", which Nacedo gave to River Dog and Mr. H knew about. (Tess was to get them, in case of trouble.) But this argues that Mr. H isn't Nacedo - otherwise he would have given them to Tess directly, or hidden them somewhere she could get to. Only a different person would have given them to RD (an outsider) for safekeeping, and merely told Mr. H where he could find them. So Tic-tac may be "Nacedo", but that doesn't connect to Mr. H. He can still be a seperate person, and probably is. As for "base shapes": this is an excellent example of just what nonsense the sci-fi of S3 was. We are to believe that an alien's normal shape is human!? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to expect an alien's base shape would be alien? This is what we saw when Mr. H was
being revived.More later... |
Hi Reggie!
Quote:
Aliens in Roswell were humanoid in appearance. They had heads with eyes and mouths. They had bodies. They had arms and legs. They stood upright and walked. Perhaps we could think of the human base form of shapeshifters as a presetting. Then Ed Harding�s preset human form was Ed Harding. He could appear as Agent Matheson or as Agent Pierce. His regular preset form, while he appeared as a human, was Ed Harding. (You might think of your hot water heater, which is set to a specific temperature for heating your hot water. That would be the presetting. Or you might have a car with memory that automatically returns your seat to a preset position, after someone else has driven the car in a different seat position. That would be the presetting.) The idea of the base human form for shapeshifters was evident when Nasedo was healed in Season One. Nasedo went to the Ed Harding form, rather than the Agent Matheson form that he had been in when he died. The Ed Harding form was Nasedo�s preset human form, or his base human form. In Season Two, Nasedo also changed to his base form of Ed Harding, when he wasn�t appearing as Agent Pierce. In Season Three, Kal, another shapeshifter, also returned to his preset form of Kal Langley. ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote:
That was Pierce who said to Max, "Nasedo. Isn�t that what you call him?" PIERCE: You know, I might not have been around in 1947, but I know all about the crash. About the four aliens they captured: two dead, two alive. I�ve spent my entire career studying the documentation. Especially the three years of observation they made on the one held in captivity, right here in this room. MAX: I thought you said there were four. PIERCE: One of them escaped. Nasedo. Isn�t that what you call him? ~~~~~~~~~~ Tess and the others called Ed Harding Nasedo. Max first talked to Tess alone about Nasedo. TESS: I know it must have been a surprise finding out about me. MAX: We knew there was someone out there, but we thought it was Nasedo. So you do know him, then. TESS: He was there when I came out of the pod, and he�s taken care of me ever since. MAX: So he�s our father? TESS: Not really, Max. So, Tess identified Ed Harding, the person who took care of her, as Nasedo. ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote:
The suggestion that Ed Harding would have given Tess the stones or hidden them somewhere she could get them still holds true, even if Ed Harding only knew about the stones, but wasn�t Nasedo. Ed Harding told Tess about River Dog and about the stones. He knew about River Dog and he knew about the healing stones. If Ed Harding wasn�t Nasedo, he knew what River Dog�s Nasedo had known. Again, for the podsters, Ed Harding was Nasedo. Ed Harding murdered humans, leaving a silver handprint on the corpses. Ed Harding murdered in the same way as the murders reported by Hubble and as the murders reported by Agent Pierce. Ed Harding murdered the same way that Atherton was murdered, as well. River Dog thought that Nasedo killed Atherton. Whoever killed Atherton killed the same way that Ed Harding killed. Since Ed Harding was a shapeshifter, he could have assumed Nasedo's form before killing Atherton. Or Ed Harding could have been Nasedo and killed Atherton. Or Kal could have shapeshifted into Nasedo and killed Atherton. Tess knew Ed Harding was called Nasedo, before Max talked to her. So Ed Harding must have told Tess he was Nesado. Again, Atherton was killed in the same manner that Ed Harding killed people. [ 02-11-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
From Max to the Max:
|
Quote:
But is it really? If the Nasedo Pact was dependent on bringing Max back to Antar (as we are led to believe), then Nasedo could have been protecting Max only to serve his own self-interest and Tess's. No Max and/or no heir, no chance to go home. Perhaps Nasedo's behavior was not acceptable at all. |
Perhaps
this has already been discussed but I haven't seen it. What are we
suppose to assume from WDAMYK when Michael tells Jesse that Isabel was
his first and that they'd still be around when he, Jesse, was just
bones?
Is the point that Antarians have a much longer lifespan? That would seem to be the case since Kivar is still around and still trying to get Isabel/Vilandra to be with him. If Kivar was a young man in 1947 when the royal four escaped from Antar, he would still be in his seventies. Also, was Michael showing an interest in Isabel just because he had the royal seal? And what is the significance of it being in his chest instead of his head? Was that an aberration? Is that why Michael acted so crazy? Or was Michael telling the truth when he told the others after it was all over that that really was the way he was and he wasn't going to apologize for it? That episode puzzled me more than most so I keep wondering if it was just another example of hurry up cause we're probably going to be canceled, cram in as much as you can and don't worry about it making sense type of filming. |
Hi Algieba! I missed reading anything from you earlier this week! Good to see you!
I liked Who Died and Made You King? very much! The episode made a lot of sense to me, because it explored the idea of what might happen, if someone suddenly got powers to do things they couldn�t do before. Michael lacked experience in leadership and handling power. He made a lot of serious mistakes. - ---- [Jesse rushes into his apartment, calling for his wife.] JESSE: Isabel? Isabel? [There is no answer, and he goes over to his desk. We see Michael has been sitting in the dark, waiting.] MICHAEL: You told them who we are? JESSE: [Whirls around to see him] Get the hell out. MICHAEL: You sold us out, didn't you??! JESSE: Get the hell out, now! MICHAEL: Didn't you?! JESSE: No- [Suddenly Michael blasts him and slams him high up against a wall, pinning him there with his powers.] MICHAEL: I told Isabel not to bring another human into the secret. But she was so in love, so Max said yes. She was my first, did you know that? We were together before you were born, and we'll be together when you're nothing but bones. [Michael sees a small metal piece sticking out of Jesse's briefcase, pulls it out, and discovers it's an electronic device.] What do we have here? JESSE: That's not mine. MICHAEL: How did it get in your briefcase? JESSE: I don't know! MICHAEL: Goodbye, Jesse. ```````````` In the scene, Michael pins Jesse to the wall, using his powers. Michael had wanted to kill Jesse, even before he discovers the bugged briefcase. Michael�s words, �We [Michael and Isabel] were together before you were born, and we'll be together when you're nothing but bones,� mean that Michael plans to kill Jesse there and then. It is too dangerous to Michael to let Jesse live any longer, since the FBI had captured Jesse. Michael believes that Jesse must have sold them out. Jesse insists that Michael leave. Michael ignores Jesse's denial that he sold them out. Michael�s words about Isabel and himself being together before Jesse was born indicate that Michael has felt upset that Isabel spoke out against Michael, in favor of Jesse, earlier in the episode. Michael wants to kill Jesse not only because Jesse is a threat to Michael�s safety, but also because Jesse has come between the closeness that Michael once shared with Isabel. (When Michael left the sign on the library lawn, Isabel told Michael that she would be there whenever he needed her. Earlier in Who Died and Made You King?, Isabel has shown Michael that her loyalty and concerns are now focused on Jesse, instead of Michael.) Michael and Isabel hadn�t been married to each other in their previous lives. They had been engaged, but Isabel fell in love with Kivar. Michael has had a special place in his heart for Isabel, ever since she first became friends with Michael, after he was treated very disrespectfully by a teacher, who refused him food in the lunch room. Quote:
Even though Michael told Jesse that he opposed Isabel's marriage to Jesse, Michael had actually accepted that she was going to marry Jesse, even before Max accepted it. Michael had behaved very reassuringly towards Isabel and her fears, once he knew for certain that Jesse wasn't an alien. Michael�s mention of Isabel and their shared past on Antar seems to be more about Michael�s hurt that Isabel was more worried about Jesse�s disappearance, than she was concerned about Michael�s wishes. Quote:
Quote:
Michael had the seal on his chest. Everyone could see that Michael now carried the seal. Because Michael carried the seal on his chest, everyone would know that the true lineal king (Max) had died, and that Michael now took his place. Because the seal wasn�t inside Michael�s head, everyone would also know that Michael wasn�t a lineal ruler. Michael had all the powers of a true king, but he lacked the blood line. He couldn�t carry the seal within his head. Since the seal was visible on Michael�s chest, a person of lineal blood could take the seal away from Michael, as Max did, when he took back the Seal of Antar. Max had lost the Seal of Antar, when his consciousness transferred into Clayton Wheeler�s body. The seal couldn�t be held by someone without Antarian blood. Clayton was human, so his body couldn�t carry the Seal of Antar. Likewise, Max and Tess� baby was useless to Kivar, because Zan was fully human and also could not carry the Seal of Antar. Later, as the healing process that Max had begun on Clayton�s body continued, the body gained Antarian characteristics. The Clayton body now looked like Max. With Antarian qualities, Max was able to take back the seal from Michael. Quote:
With the Seal of Antar, Michael gained powers he had never had before. He was aware that now he was in charge. Michael�s only models of people in power as he had grown up were of people who had abused their power. Michael�s foster dad, a person with power over him, had behaved dictatorially and abusively towards Michael. The school teacher at lunch had behaved dictatorially and abusively towards Michael, as well. Deep down, Michael must have seethed all those years he had so little control of his own powers and so little control over events in his life. With the arrival on the seal, Michael�s wish to have people do what he wanted for once came to fore. He wanted and expected everyone to do as he said, just as he had had to do in his life. Michael lacked a good role model for handling power as he grew up. He wasn�t a good leader when he gained the powers of the seal. All that power went to his head, even if the seal didn�t! Michael wasn�t able to handle the power of the seal very well for the brief period of time he had it. Michael alienated Maria. He behaved badly towards Jesse, Isabel and Max. He endangered everyone�s life, including his own, by threatening the psychiatrist. Michael didn't take time to think things though. He reacted. He had often complained about Max not taking action. Michael was determined to be a different kind of leader. Michael failed to think of the consequences threatening the psychiartrist would have. Being a good leader takes wisdom and experience. Some people are natural born leaders. Even so, experience is valuable in handling the responsibilities of leadership and power. Ordinarily, Michael instinctively put his life on the line to protect the people he loved. When he received the Seal of Antar, though, his priorities changed. Michael became power hungry and attempted to be controlling. People didn�t accept him the way he expected them to. Power doesn�t always confer obedience. Quote:
On Antar, as Rath, he may also have had separate ideas about the way things should go. Courtney indicated that Michael/Rath had a following on Antar. However, Michael had evidently not broken away from Max/Zan on Antar. He remained loyal. Max and Isabel�s mother described Michael/Rath as Max/Zan�s second-in-command. Michael was very protective of Max and Isabel. When Liz and Maria confronted the three of them in the alley by blocking their exit, it was Michael who stepped forward. After Michael no longer had the seal, he was unwilling to apologize for his behavior towards Maria for a while. ````` MARIA: Yeah. He, uh, threatened my life and then shoved me out of a moving vehicle and just left me in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night. MICHAEL: [Comes storming out of the kitchen.] The car was stopped! And I NEVER threatened to kill you! MARIA: After you suggested it'd be better off if I was dead, and Jesse, and everybody else who knows about your little "secret"..! MICHAEL: It was a suggestion. [Everyone gives Michael skewed looks, and he gets defensive.] .....Why am I always apologizing to you guys about who I am? MARIA: That wasn't you, Michael! MICHAEL: Yes, it was me. Max was dead, I was king. I did what I had to do. MARIA: Fine. MICHAEL: I'm not sorry about it, either. MARIA: Fine! MICHAEL: No, I'm not sorry. [Michael walks off towards the door.] MARIA: ...Fine... [Michael slams the door hard on his way out, breaking the glass. Everyone looks shocked and concerned. Maria can only shake her head.] `````` In the scene, Michael says he�s not sorry for the way he behaved when he had the seal. However, Michael�s actions speak otherwise. He is unwilling to admit he was wrong, but he knows what he did was unacceptable. He slams the door, breaking the glass. Again, Michael has problems controlling his emotions. Later in the episode, he apologizes to Maria. Michael had wanted to be accepted for who he was (mistakes and all). Michael�s subsequent apology shows he is also willing to accept responsibility for his behavior and to make amends with Maria. -- --- transcript excepts by MoonDreamer at ************** [ 02-21-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Wow, Citrus.
Great explanation of that episode. I don't
think I can disagree with anything you said. The whole episode makes so
much more sense with that explanation. I have always felt so puzzled
when I watched it, trying to think what Michael's motivations were. I especially like the idea that the V symbol was on his chest where others could see it and also so Max could take it back. I like the way that Max so often just instinctively knew what he had to do. No one taught him he could retrieve his power by putting his hand on the seal. He just knew it. I think Max has the qualities of a great leader. He makes mistakes but he also made some very astute decisions that saved their lives. I've been thinking again about Lonnie's influence on him in Max in the City. That little talk she gave him before he gave his decision about Kivar's deal was a perceptive analysis of Max's personality. She played on his feelings of responsibility for Antar's people, his own people actually. Too bad Lonnie had to be so evil. She would have made a strong ally. |
Quote:
As I see it, Michael was referring to the fact that he and Isabel (as Rath and Villandra) were engaged. Kinda pointless, since Jesse wasn't a member of the I Know An Alien Club. <shrug> Plus some bravado, I suspect; although the idea of Twilonians having longer life spans isn't unreasonable. Their medicine is probably more advanced than ours, after all. As for Michael's interest in Isabel, remember that the first and principal duty of any sovereign is to produce an heir. It's entirely possible that this royal duty was behind his interest in Isabel. Remember, they'd grown up almost as brother and sister, so she wasn't romanticly interesting in S1. Being royalty, though, it makes sense. I believe that it's just another aspect of Michael becoming "king". As such, it's rational and not something to apologise for... unless you count that he's really being a jerk about everything. I totally agree that his denials afterward are mostly bravado, and that he really did regret what happened. |
Great explanations, as usual, C&V!
I especially enjoyed this one: Quote:
I do, however, disagree with this one: Quote:
................................ And Reggie, I like your alternate explanations too! [ 02-29-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
shapeshifter! I love the title Who Died and Made You King? too!I agree with you that Michael got the seal because Max died healing Clayton. Max's body died then. However, Max's essence transferred into Clayton's body. His essence couldn't carry the Seal of Antar into Clayton's body, because Clayton was human. Max's identity and information about his past could (and did) transfer into Clayton's body. Max's essence became hellishly trapped inside Clayton's body, with Clayton in control of the body for most of the time. Max also died again when Clayton forced Liz out of the window. ```````````````````` After Max/Zan died on Antar, the Seal of Antar went to Max's new body that was sent to Earth. The Seal could go to different bodies. After Max died, the Seal passed on to Michael. Possibly the Seal was to have gone to Isabel first. However, Isabel was gravely injured, unconcious, and near death, shortly after Max died. So maybe the Seal bypassed Isabel for that reason. Max could carry the seal in his brain, because he was a lineal, royal king. Michael only had the seal on his chest, making it possible for a lineal royal with Antarian blood to take back the seal, as Max did. [ 02-29-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
I
just watched Summer of '47 for the first time in a long time--on the
SciFi Channel--and noticed some thing. The scene in bold below was
supposed to be at the end of the next, not the beginning, because the
way it airs, Hal has just taken the beer from Michael, and then
suddenly, it's empty and he's asking for another:
|
Hey, shapeshifter! Cool you caught Summer of '47 on the Scifi channel!
I love that episode![ 03-04-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Quote:
Hey, wait a minute... Roswell's back on "Sci-Fi"? Or was it an old tape you were watching? Note that if you don't like the DVD version of S1, you should tape it off the air and (in a year or two) you will be able to make your own DVD, with the right music etc. |
Hey Reg, The link to the SciFi schedule for Roswell is here.
Note that the sequence is dd/month/yr. A lot of folks (me included)
have been confused by this and thought the year was a day. So the last
airing was March first, and the next is April 12th.
And Majandra will be starring in a made-for-the-tube movie tomorrow evening on the family channel, which is airing opposite a new episode of charmed, but then re-airing the next day, and another. More details are posted on the Rosblog. |
Hi,
shapeshifter. Thanks for the heads up on Majandra's tv appearance. I
missed Sunday night and Monday night so now I'll try for Wednesday
night.
|
Hi everyone!
eurekamazeltov posted a question on the imdb.com Roswell message board. She asks, "Why does Maria sometimes calls Liz by the moniker 'Petunia'?" Does the name come from a cartoon character or what?". Does anyone know anything more about the name "Petunia"? I've only heard it used as a nickname. |
Driveby!It's probably just that: a pet name. There was a (children's?) song with the line, "I'm just a petunia in an onion patch...". Since the wonderful Liz is a humble waitress in her parents' beanery, it does kind of fit. Not gone, just away... |
Thanks, Reggie!
|
It is a children's song and it goes like this:
I'm a lonely little petunia in an onion patch, an onion patch, an onion patch. I'm a lonely little petunia in an onion patch, and all I do is cry all day. Boo, hoo! It's got a catchy tune and little children like it. Maybe Maria calls Liz Petunia when she's sad. Liz is pouting on New Year's Eve when she has to go to the old folks celebration at the Crashdown. She kind of looks like a little kid, begging Dad to let her go out and play. |
Thank you Algieba! I posted your answer and Reggie's on the other board. Your explanations fit!
Maria also called Liz "pumpkin", when Liz was recovering in her dorm after drinking and seeing Max. I liked the affectionate use of different names in the show. |
Now, in true RBI fashon, we must consider
whether Liz is really a plant of some sort. |
Has
there been any speculation about Liz's grandmother possibly having some
connection to aliens? Maybe it's a stretch but I was wondering why she
made Liz promise to follow her heart after she got a look at Max. Did
she recognize something about him? Did she know something? Such
as....did Max look like someone she had known or known about? I'm
wondering about who the genetic donors for Max, Isabel and Tess were.
Liz, a plant? That does conjure up quite a picture. |
Algieba,
many posts have been made on that topic, so, following the axiom (mine)
that if a lot of different folks post the same idea about Roswell, than
it must have merit, I would have to say that yes, Grandma Claudia has
an alien connection. There are also some good fanfics that take off on
that premise.
Hmmm...Liz as a plant? Meaning vegetable or FBI? |
I
doubt the FBI; they would have had to use an adult (like Topulski). But
she could have been manouvered by the aliens (Tic-tac) for some purpose.
Or maybe she's part green onion, like Max.  |
Does
anyone know why Max, Michael and Isabel didn't remember anything about
coming out of the pods as children? It seems strange that they
remembered things happening shortly after that but remember nothing
about the pod chamber until Tess shows up. Max has memories of he and
Isabel walking on the road when the Evans' headlights pick them up.
Michael remembers running away by himself in that slime outfit they
were wearing when they came out of the pods. Those things happened soon
after they came out of the pod chamber.
It seems very odd to me that they don't remember what happened to them right before that, namely struggling out of the pods, seeing one of them not hatched yet, Michael using his hand to open the pod chamber, Isabel trying to get Max to leave the unhatched alien behind, Max looking sad, not knowing what to do but finally taking Isabel's hand and leaving with her. Why were those memories wiped out yet they remember what happened immediately after? I don't think it was supposed to be a mindwarp because the pods are there as evidence. The Dupes had pods too and said they remembered coming out of them. Are we suppose to believe that trauma caused the memory loss? If so, why weren't the Dupes similarly traumatized being born in an underground sewer? Did their protector stay with them and that was the difference? I know they were like newborns, not able to talk, but it makes no sense to forget something so dramatic when the Dupes seem to remember what happened to them (and the Dupes are suppose to be the defectives). |
I don�t know if I can answer what you want, but here goes. The Dupes made their home right by their pods. They didn't leave the area from which they had emerged. We don't know what details they recalled about the day the left their pods. Michael, Isabel, and Max left their pods and the area from which they had emerged. The three remembered they had been in pods, but they didn�t remember Tess, or leaving the podchamber, or the location of the podchamber. Thinking back to when I was 16 to what I remembered about what happened when I was six, I would say that I mostly remembered close friends, family, and some teachers. By age six, I had six years experience of being in the world. Even so, at age sixteen, I didn�t recall someone I had met once when I was six. Max, Michael, and Isabel didn�t meet Tess in the podchamber. They saw her and that was all. They didn�t interact with her. They didn�t remain in the podchamber. They had no earlier experiences to integrate their experience in the podchamber. Being there was just one of a series of entirely new experiences for them that day. They remembered things that later had meaning to them, such as meeting each other in the desert, but 10 years later, they had forgotten the details of things that happened before that, with the exception of knowing that they had been in pods. Perhaps the trauma of leaving Tess behind resulted in their suppressing the memory of the event. (Max was upset to leave Tess.) Or perhaps they were just too young and too newly born to consciously remember something they couldn't change or help at the time. Once they left the podchamber, they had pod material still adhering to them to remind them that they had been in pods. They had nothing left to remind them of Tess or the podchamber. After leaving the chamber, they had a whole new world to experience. Amid all their new experiences, they forgot Tess and the podchamber. They remembered the pods, because they had experienced the pods, and had some reminders of the pods on their bodies, after they left the chamber. None of three recognized or remembered Tess when she came to Roswell. Tess no longer looked like she had in the pod. Her eyes had been closed then, and she had been 10 years younger. Max, Michael, and Isabel didn�t know the location of the podchamber, either. Humans usually don�t remember the people and the place they first see at birth. Max, Michael, and Isabel weren't humans. We can only guess how things were for them, when they were born. We don't know how conscious memory developed for them. We only know that Max didn't remember Tess, until after she took him to the rock formation. The three of them didn�t remember Tess and didn�t remember the podchamber, especially since the podchamber was far from where they grew up. They all three knew they had emerged from pods. They had each physically experienced emerging from a pod. They had only visually seen Tess briefly. Evidently, seeing her hadn't imprinted on their conscious memory amid all the other new experiences they had that day. They also didn't recall Michael opening the podchamber using a silver handprint. Some things we remember, because people, environment, and events reinforce our memories and keep memories fresh. Some things we forget. Some things we remember, because something sparks our memories. Going to the rock formation with Tess and thinking about where he had seen her before sparked Max�s memories of the podchamber, Tess in her pod, and the three of them leaving Tess and the podchamber 10 years earlier. |
I just watched most of the 1997 Bruce Willis movie, The Fifth Element,
with Milla Jovovich playing Leeloo, who is the "Fifth Element"
necessary to save the world from evil. (The other four elements are, of
course, wind, water, earth & fire.) On the old Liz Myth threads, as
early as May 2000 and Novemeber 2000, Starbox and others were comparing Liz to "the fifth element."
Does anyone here now know if this was at least in part in reference to the Bruce Willis movie? I also recall a discussion of the earth/wind/fire/water concept in relation to the fifth element, but cannot find the thread just now. [ 04-14-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
shapeshifter: I believe that Liz has been equated with Leelo from The Fifth Element
before. The Fifth Element in the movie refers to "love". The comparison
would be Max with Korban and Liz to Leelo. The premise would be:
Without Max's love, Liz would not be able to fulfill her role as "the
fifth element," "love," and save the universe from evil. Without
"love," all is lost. Liz's character takes on the goddess role,
representing "love".
This perhaps might tie into the "change" in destiny to prevent Max from making Zan's mistakes, to "repeating history." I still can't help thinking this includes Tess. While Tess clearly seems to think Zan loved her as past life Ava, we get the opposite reaction from dupe Ava who feels her "Zan" was looking for someone else -- "the fifth element?" Was Max really upset at leaving Tess behind in the pod chamber? Or was this event meant to tell us something else about Tess? Or Max even? Perhaps Max instinctively, but intentionally left Tess behind. Perhaps this was one way of telling us that while, yes, okay, they had sex, Max/Zan was never in love with Tess/Ava. Or perhaps, Max as Zan, never trusted Tess as Ava for some unknown reason. It would be nice to know or sure. But we also have to remember that it was not only Max who left Tess behind ... it was also Isabel and Michael. The separation is complete. To me, there is symbolic reasoning behind it rather than Max possibly being "upset". I think there is some greater connection or should I say, disconnection. The key remains sealed in the Zan/Ava Antarian marriage. Citrus: Love your explanation about memory and how it fits into the idea of what Max, Michael and Isabel remember. [ 04-15-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
The Real Momo- I love reading your posts and ITA with you regarding the whole Max/Zan and Tess/Ava relationship.
Thanks shapeshifter for the links to the Liz Myth threads. I also loved that Liz was referred to as being "The Fifth Element. |
Quote:
My thought has been that Tess was his "young bride", as opposed to his first wife. I believe that Max's beloved first wife was killed (by K' var, in an assesenation attempt?). As Max's second wife, she could have been much younger, and more star-struck than in romantic love with her King. He, in turn, would see her as a dynastic necessity rather than an equal; and feel great affection for her (of course) rather than the Love he felt for his first wife. Of course, if there is "artificial reincarnation", then the natural sort is possible too. Now, I wonder what happened to the soul of Max's beloved? It would explain a lot... |
Quote:
Certainly the dictionary definition leaves Tess/Ava's station in question. Bride is defined as "a newly married woman or a woman about to be married." As a woman "about to be married", Tess/Ava could very easily be described as a "young bride" without having gone through the marriage ceremony. However ... there is a problem in assuming Tess/Ava as "a woman about to be married." It comes from Larek in the body of Brody who tells Max (in MITC) "I was there at your wedding." So Max was definitely married ... but to whom? I don't recall Brody specifically identifying Tess as Zan's "wife" at this point. The inference is there and we are led to believe it is Tess but ... do we believe it? Should we believe it? As I recall, Tess is the only person we specifically refers to herself as "wife". Does anybody recall anyone besides Tess using the word "wife?" |
Quote:
My son, you were the beloved leader of our people. I have sent with you your young bride. My daughter, the man you were betrothed to, and your brother's second-in-command. I think the message from their mom would have said that she sent her son�s betrothed, if she were implying that no marriage had occurred. She knew the term and used it. She only applied the term �betrothed� to her daughter�s relationship, not her son�s. Max's mother said your young bride, implying that he had married, as opposed to saying your bride-to-be or your intended bride or your betrothed. `````````` The translation successfully used to operate the Granilith begins with the words, �YOU ARE THE ROYAL FOUR. ZAN, THE KING. AVA, HIS QUEEN.� If Zan and Ava had not been married, Ava might have been a queen, but not his queen. Being Zan�s queen means that they were married, not merely about to be married or engaged or betrothed. ````````````````` Larek at the Summit told Max that he was at Max�s coronation and wedding. Later, Brody accessed Larek�s memories and remembered that Larek introduced Max and Tess in their former lives. He remembered that Max/Zan loved her. Brody/Larek was insistent. When Max healed Brody, he had flashes of himself and Tess kissing. Later, Max went to Tess in her room at night, and tenderly told her that he remembered her. I think we can believe Larek, because he said that he was friends with Zan. Larek proved his friendship later, by giving Max and the others accurate information about the Gandarium, so they could save themselves. ____________________________________________________________ screencaps from Momo�s Roswell and Roswell Screen Grab Galleries |
Thanks,
Citrus, for the refresher. I always had the impression that the Zan/Ava
marriage was real, but when the subject was brought up, couldn't
remember if a direct reference to Tess/Ava as "wife", just "young
bride". A reference to Ava as queen would definitely back the idea that
Ava was married to Max.
|
In Harvest, Greer says, "You must be the once and future king. And his bride," to which Tess boldly--if not proudly--replies, "That's right."
[ 04-23-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
The Real Momo & shapeshifter:
Could one of you please tell me which episode Max actually referred to
or called Tess his "wife"? My memory fails me and I can't remember.
In Departure when Tess was yelling at Max "about not feeling that way about her because she was his wife", did Max ever tell Tess that she was his "wife", before or after they had sex? If some people actually consider Tess to be Max's "wife" on Earth, then that makes Max a bigamist for marrying Liz. I don't know if Tess is dead or not since there was no body found. She might come back one day and want to reclaim her "husband". |
Sonia, good question. I did a search of the scripts and only found this line from Off The Menu:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Thanks for the help shapeshifter.
I gotta say that was one of the few times that I ever agreed with Maria in regards to Tess. Even Congresswoman Whitaker referred to Tess as being a "tramp." I guess even the evil aliens can call a spade a spade!! |
Hey!! Its been a while, how you doing?
Taking the risk to make a now off-topic post: Thanks for the explanation of the "Petunia" nickname
its that kind of thing someone not from the states, like me, would
probably never come across an explanation [ 04-25-2004: Message edited greenglow ] |
Quote:
From "down under", perhaps? Are you enjoying the comets? (There will be two of them visible in the Northern Hemisphere, in a week or so.) |
<Sigh>
No posts for a month and a half... Are we done, then? :cry: |
Oh,
my god! Have I been in a coma? No, I think I was gestating in a pod
somewhere! I'll be back later. *scurries to ruminate over notes*
|
Quote:
How Roswellian! Meanwhile, over on the SciFi bb, RoswellBound asked: Quote:
|
Hello everyone! :wave:
Quote:
After they saw Tess reassemble the statue, Isabel began having dreams of kissing Alex and seeing Michael in a desert with symbols. Then she dreamed of kissing Michael on a rock formation. She dreamed of having a child with Michael. She thought she was pregnant with Michael�s baby, even though she and Michael had never been intimate together. Isabel never kissed Michael on the rock formation. She never had a child with Michael. She wasn�t pregnant. Isabel was having dreams that she didn't understand. So Isabel didn't try to dreamwalk Tess, because she couldn't understand the meaning of her own dreams. (Isabel didn�t dreamwalk anyone who was awake, until Max was in the white room. By then, they knew who Tess was.) _______________________________________________________________________ |
I
agree with Citrus (it's so good to agree with Citrus on something :lol:
) Isabel had her "hands" full, she wasn't in the proper state of mind
to dreamwalk Tess.
|
I
think Isabel did have a reason to dreamwalk Tess when she first met her
if nothing more than to prove Max and Michael wrong. They objected to
Isabel making a new friend when they met Tess at Max and Isabel's
house.
Then after Michael went to Tess' house and saw the military show up, Isabel had a reason again to wonder about Tess' background. Finally, after Isabel's visit to Tess' house, it was really wierd the way Tess grabbed the box of pictures out of Isabel's hands. At that point, you would think Isabel whould have thought to use her dreamwalk capabilities. She had no reservations about dreamwalking Maria or Alex so why not Tess? Even without suffficient reason to suspect someone, dreamwalking new people who came into their lives would have been a good safety precaution. Dreamwalking was not used sometimes when you would think it should be and used other times when you would think it shouldn't be. Isabel dreamwalked Liz even after Max asked her not to. That was an invasion of both Liz and Max's privacy. How would you like to have a sister who snooped into your girlfriend or boyfriend's dreamlife? She dreamwalked Kyle for no apparent reason. Yet she didn't dreamwalk Grant when that might have yielded some suspicious information. |
Quote:
If Isabel had dreamwalked someone she only knew slightly, she wouldn�t be able to guess what part of the dream might be real. Isabel could guess from knowing Maria that her dream represented Maria�s fears. Isabel knew many of the same people that Maria knew. Isabel feared that Maria would tell Sheriff Valenti their secret. Isabel had a specific goal, when she dreamwalked Maria. Isabel could also guess from Alex�s dream that Alex was interested in Isabel. Again, Isabel knew Alex and she knew Alex was interested in her physically (�Nice cones�.) Seeing Alex�s dream of dancing with her made it easy for Isabel to guess that Alex was also interested in Isabel romantically speaking, as well as physically speaking. Dreamwalking couldn�t predict what people would do. Isabel couldn�t tell from Maria�s dream what Maria would tell Valenti in their meeting. And dreamwalking Alex didn�t forewarn Isabel that Alex would force Liz to tell him Isabel�s secret . Isabel could have dreamwalked Tess if she wanted to. But when Isabel dreamwalked Maria, she let slip information that she knew what was in Maria�s dream. (�Some people are just pigs.�) Isabel also let slip that she knew what had been in Alex�s dream. (�But you�re different � which is why I think I know that I can trust you.�) Alex took offense to what Isabel revealed from the information she gained from dreamwalking him. He thought Isabel only invited him to the party to find out what he had said to Valenti. Alex felt like a fool for believing that Isabel was interested in him. Isabel was interested in Alex. But she almost blew her chances with Alex, because she had dreamwalked him. Isabel received negative reinforcement about dreamwalking, after she dreamwalked Alex. When Isabel met Tess, they got along well. Isabel was incensed that Max and Michael didn�t trust her judgment. Isabel didn�t dreamwalk Tess. But even if she had, she didn�t know Tess well enough to know what Tess� dreams might mean. If Isabel had dreamwalked Tess, Tess� dreams might not tell Isabel anything. A single dream isn�t much of an indication about a person�s waking life. Even if Tess didn�t dream anything bad, Tess� dreams wouldn�t prove Max or Michael wrong. Even if Tess dreamed something bad, it could be a nightmare, like Maria had, and like Kyle later had. Isabel had no incentive to dreamwalk Tess. And even if Isabel did dreamwalk Tess, she wouldn�t know what Tess� dreams meant. She wouldn�t know from Tess� dreams what Tess was really doing. The group wisely chose a fact-finding course of action. Michael went by the Harding home and reported back what he had found. Isabel went inside the Harding home and reported back what she had found. Liz went inside the Harding home and planted the surveillance camera. Everyone�s actions were geared on finding out facts, which could be helpful and useful, rather than trying to interpret dreams, which had limited or no value. Again, Isabel didn�t dreamwalk anyone who was awake, until Max was in the white room. By then, Isabel had learned who Tess was. |
Quote:
Roswell shows that even when people do things right, things can go wrong. Roswell also shows that sometimes when people do wrong things, some good can come of it. Because Isabel dreamwalked Liz and Kyle that night, her mind was open and receptive. She was able to receive Laurie's distress cries. Ultimately, Laurie was rescued. |
On to the next question. Maybe it's already been discussed but here goes.
How did Liz succeed in driving Tess to Rogers Air Force Base when only a few hours before Max and Michael couldn't get her past the roadblock? The military had a picture of Tess. They knew she had attempted to get out of Roswell by car. They knew she had help. Wouldn't they have been scrutinizing cars even more, not just at roadblocks but on as many roads as they could cover? The place where Liz drops Tess off appears to be at a remote area of the base so it makes sense they wouldn't necessarily be seen until Tess actually went on to the base. But how did they get to this remote location? Are we suppose to assume that Roswell backs up to the air force base so Liz and Tess didn't have to go through any roadblocks? Usually air force bases are so noisy they are either on the outskirts of a city or completely off by themselves. The only way I can see how they got to the base was to only go down little used streets, Tess ducking down every time a car passed. They also didn't have to leave the town of Roswell to get to the base thus avoiding any road blocks. That would require that the base was built within the city limits or at least the property of the fenced in area was very close. Does the actual city of the real Roswell have a military base near it or was this not only a fictional base but also a fictional location? |
Quote:
New Mexico has three Air Force Bases�Cannon AFB, Holloman AFB, and Kirkland AFB. Rogers Air Force Base in the TV show Roswell is fictional. (Likewise, there is no West Roswell High.) The current New Mexico Air Force Bases aren�t near Roswell. (In 1947, there was a Roswell Army Air Field. At that time, the Air Force was part of the Army.) Quote:
After Max healed the children, it took a while for his powers to return. After Tess' crashed ship was captured, Tess used her powers, killed people, and escaped the base. By the time she got to the Valenti home, she was exhausted. (Things there were left in disarray.) When Tess arrived at the Evans home, she collapsed. She had a wound, which she hadn�t healed, even though normally Tess could heal a wound. (Tess healed Max�s face.) After she collasped, she slept for a while. Her powers began to return. As the search for Tess continued, Michael and Max left in the car with Tess and the baby. They stopped at the roadblock. Tess used her mindwarp to keep the military police from seeing Zan and her. Zan began crying and the dogs began barking. Tess was unable to sustain the mindwarp. Later, the group slept. Tess had time to regain her strength. She asked Liz to take her to the base. This time, Tess didn�t have Zan with her. Tess wasn't worrying about Zan crying or worrying about comforting Zan. She wasn't worrying about the dogs' barking upsetting Zan. Her concentration during the mindwarp was unbroken. Liz and Tess were able to get past the roadblocks. __________________________________________ |
Quote:
Algieba, those are great questions. But I'm afraid there are no good answears to those questions. You are pointing out the enormous flaws of one of the worst episodes of Roswell. Everything on it has flaws beyond the worst expectations. That episode is really really terrible. Very poorly scriped. It's contradiction after contradiction, non-sense after non-sense. No matter what angle you see it, those flaws will never go away. It's just a complete mess. :( :( :( :( |
Quote:
Quote:
However, I never questioned it since the blockades were mainly to keep Tess and other aliens in the town, not out of the base--although it would seem wiser to guard the base. |
I
may be getting bogged down, greenglow, in continuing the rant about
4AAAB because it is so unexplainable to me, but it really helps to know
that I am not the only one who saw so many major flaws. Maybe others
feel the same way but are just tired of hearing about it.
Back to my rant. How come when the story calls for it, Tess has extraordinary mindwarping powers, but when the story calls for her death, she is conveniently so unable to help herself? I haven't read anything so far that explains the discrepencies in this. If Tess had her powers back, why didn't she just take Zan and leave Roswell? The whole reason she couldn't get out of Roswell the first time was because she was too weak to sustain her powers long enough to fool the guards. If her powers were back to normal, she had other options. It had already been established that Tess could mindwarp several people at a time for long enough for Max to change Pierce's bones. That took longer than it would have taken to get through the roadblock. Once Tess was spotted trying to get through a roadblock, even greater efforts would have been made to secure the roads out of, within, and around Roswell. It would have required the same effort for Tess to leave Roswell as it would have to get to within walking distance of the base where Liz took her. So, why go to the base and risk confrontation with the authorities and take the risk of unintended consequences making matters worse? Military bases that have just suffered the death of sixteen people would not relax security and assume the alien wouldn't be back. Security would be greatly heightened coming in, going out, and all around the base. It wasn't necessary for Tess to die. In fact, it was counterproductive. She could have done like Nasedo, gotten a car, blown up something that had a security camera that would show her leaving Roswell, led the authorities away from the others and then gone in any direction she wanted, with simple mindwarps of anyone along the way. The video would have shown her alone or just with Zan which would have protected Max and Michael when the authorities later questioned them about trying to help her get through the roadblock. There were eyewitnesses that could give a description of both of them, and the make, model and year of the car. Eventually they would have been questioned. How many cars of that description are registered to a young man meeting Max's looks could there be in Roswell? I don't know but you can bet, after the death of sixteen people, every one of them would have been checked out no matter how long it took. Tess could even have used Max's car and left them tied up beside the road. I don't know if Michael could have given a plausible excuse for blowing up a military vehicle but at least Max could have claimed kidnapping as a defense. She could have taken Zan with her or left him with Max to eventually be put up for adoption. Either way, she and Zan would have been out of everyone's life, and Max and Liz could have gone on with their romance without Tess being involved ever again. Tess would not have had any different a life trying to survive as a fugitive then the others ultimately had when they had to flee Roswell to save their lives at the conclusion of the show. Maybe if she had not gone to the AFB and caused such destruction, the Special Unit would not have been called back into the hunt for the others. The Special Unit had been disbanded and was not looking for the others until Tess showed up. If she had led the hunt away from them, there was a chance they could have had a much better future. They could have gone on with their lives, be it college, marriage, families, or whatever, instead of traveling around the country in a van, hiding from the authorities, losing touch with all their familes and friends. I would have liked to see a happier ending for all the characters. |
The military searched Roswell for Tess. She had arrived in Roswell by some means. She could have driven there.
I think that the Air Force Base wasn�t near Roswell. Tess was in a greatly depleted condition. She could have been injured in the crash, and/or she could have been injured later. Tess� escape to Roswell was apparently difficult. At the Valenti home, she left blood. She was apparently in physical distress, as things were left in disarray. She still had enough power to make an opening out through Kyle�s room, when she was traced to his house. Tess was unable to nurse, because she was so physically depleted. (She asked Michael if he had any milk.) After she left the Valenti home, she evidently traveled by foot. (Dogs were able to track her movements in Roswell, after she left the Valenti home.) Tess asked Liz to drive her to the base. Tess could have wanted someone to drive her, in order for Tess to be able to hide herself (by mindwarp). Or Tess could have asked Liz to drive her, as maybe she was traced to Roswell, when the vehicle she drove was found there. By getting someone to drive her, Tess wouldn�t be leaving a car at the base on her return, and the military wouldn�t be able to track back to where she had last been. By having Liz drive her, Tess would be protecting Zan (and the others) from being found. `````````````````` Because the military converged on Roswell in great numbers to find Tess, the military�s resources were strained. Fewer people remained on the base. The base had a long, unguarded fence line, through which Tess was able to gain access to the base. |
Quote:
Tess felt she had to die, because people would continue to hunt for her. She thought there was nowhere she could go to keep Zan safe. She thought it would only be a matter of time before she was tracked down. Tess knew that Isabel and Michael didn�t want her around. She knew that Liz didn�t want her around either. She knew that Max was in love with Liz. Tess decided the best thing she could do for Zan would be to return to the base and force the military to kill her. Tess asked Liz to take her, and Liz agreed. Since Liz acted on her own without consulting with Max and the others, and since Liz acted against what she had voted for, the story was left open to possible future conflicts between Max and Liz. _________________________________________________________________ All of the characters had problems and disagreements in their relationships. If Tess and Max had been the couple that remained in the story (instead of Liz and Max), they would have had problems. Although the writers could have chosen to keep Tess in the story, the writer's chose to have Tess die. _________________________________________________________________ Max hadn�t wanted Tess to be turned over to the military. Tess was Zan�s mother. Tess had done a lot to help save humans and the podsters. Maybe Liz didn�t tell Max she drove Tess to the base. So perhaps if Max later learned that Liz took Tess there, some conflict between Liz and Max would ensue. Liz and Max married. If the series had continued, there were things that probably would have troubled their relationship. For example, Liz hadn�t told Max about Future Max (as far as the audience knows). Liz also hadn�t awakened Max and the others to consult with them about taking Tess to the base. Max was an alien whose mother and allies needed his help. Zan might need Max�s help again in the future. The stories in Roswell are about science fiction and about problems and how the characters handle problems. Each decision leaves room for contemplating alternative courses of action. _________________________________________________________________ |
originally posted by Algieba
Quote:
While it has been suggested that Tess couldn't maintain the mindwarp in Max's car because of her "weakened" state, I took a completely different interpretation -- that Tess lost her concentration, not because she was weak, but because, as a mother, her concentration shifted. Zan, who began fussing, distracted Tess's focus. As a mother, Tess's attention was instinctively drawn to Zan long enough to break her concentration, and consequently, the mindwarp. originally posted by Citrus and Vine Quote:
While Tess was obviously shot in the leg during her escape from the base with Zan, her motive for going to the Valentis could be considered suspect. If Tess had gone to the Valentis for help, why run from them? She could have called out. The Valentis would have recognized her voice. All she had to say was, "Don't shoot! It's Tess." Certainly, Valenti will not have shot her in cold blood. And while Tess says she could have killed them, which is true, she could have easily disarmed Jim Valenti. So she was not in such physical distress that she couldn't use her powers to kill the Valentis if she so chose. If she was looking for "milk" for Zan, she knew the kitchen layout enough to know where to find the milk without leaving it in disarray. So why go to the Valentis? Just for the sake of discussion, perhaps Tess had another reason for going to the Valentis. We know that Tess had in her possession the key to the 1947 spaceship. We also know that this "key" also offered "communication" with Antar. Is it possible that Tess went to the Valentis to retreive this valuable artifact in hopes of using it in the future - for example, either to communicate with someone on Antar or to get out of Earth on the remaining spaceship? From the time that Tess left in the granilith for Antar and returned via her ship, Tess's belongings had been packaged up and moved. When Tess returns to the Valentis, it is not where she left it, so she begins a search which could account for the "disarray". Because she was being tracked, she would not have been neat for any search of the "Antarian" material. originally posted by Algieba Quote:
While security would have been tightened, chances of a Red Jetta driven by a dark-haired girl getting through a roadblock would not be a problem. Keep in mind that the military had the description and probably license plate of Max's car, a Blue Chevelle convertible. Tess and the Zan were seen in the company of 2 males, Max and Michael. Therefore, an APD would have gone out for Max's car as the "last seen vehicle" and they would have been looking for four people, not one. Without Zan, Tess could have easily hidden herself with a mindwarp because she did not have the baby to distract her. Because the car would have been traced back to Max, who was last known address was Michael's, his residence would have been the first place they would have gone. The logistics of placing manpower along the perimeter of the base would have been prohibitive. Probably, vehicles drove by at pre-determined times around the fences and that's it. Most of the manpower would have been closer in, to protect "sensitive" areas. And since Tess was observed trying to get out of town, they probably felt that she would not risk coming back to the base, but looking for a way out. originally posted by Algieba Quote:
I've always thought the end of Roswell was deliberating open-ended in spite of the seeming "finality" of Tess's death. We are certainly left to believe that Tess is dead, both with the explosion and Zan's reaction to his mother's death. However, I believe it intentionally left room for interpretation -- everything from Tess's arrival, her choice of Liz as driver right down to her "death". We are also led to believe that the Special Unit disbanded, however, the photographs taken of the gang were taken prior to the base explosion, thereby proving the Special Unit was still in operation, but more underground. For another spin, let's say ... it was never Tess's intention to expose "the pod squad" to the military. The collision was ironically for Tess, an accident. Her arrival was not. According to Tess, Kivar betrayed her and was going to kill little Zan. However, if Zan was 100% human, he was no threat to Kivar. While it's easy to say that that Kivar would just kill Zan, that is not how Kivar operates, I think. That is more Nicholas's style. Shoving Nicholas into the skin of of 15-year-old gives us a clue into Kivar's thinking. He's more cunning, more sly, more deliberate in handling his enemies -- a punishment fits the crime kind of guy. After all, what could be more frustrating to a successful ladies' man and a competitor for Vilandra's affections, than to put Nicholas in a horny 15-year old that no "real" woman would consider. A man in a boy's body is an example of punishment fits the crime. At this juncture, Zan is worth more alive to Kivar than dead. Max is still his number one threat. While Max is still bascially clueless, there is an army that supports the King and as long as Max is alive, he's a threat to the stability of Kivar's tyrannical reign whether Max wishes to be king or not. The only way Kivar can deal with Max and remove the threat, is to publicly discredit him, then execute him as a "bad king." And the only bait he has to draw Max is Zan. He's a bargaining chip over Max's head, not Tess. What's more, Tess knows this also. It is very possible that Tess's rearrival in Roswell is not necessarily to protect Zan from Kivar, but to complete the Nasedo Pact. When Tess returns to Antar with the heir but without Max, Isabel, and Michael, the Nasedo Pact has not come to fruition. Tess's arrival on Antar endangers her life. Her life is forfeit. The mission is not complete. But Tess is a survivalist and plots a quick, if not completely thought out plan of action. Tess, not her son, makes contact with Max, to tell him "his son" is in danger". She tells Kivar she is pregnant with Max's child; thus her life is spared and the Nasedo Pact becomes a strategic battleplan. With Kivar's blessing, he gives her a ship to return to Earth (Ever wonder how Tess ever got her hands on that spaceship?). It crashes to Earth. She's knocked out by the crash and only "wakes up" after the military has secured the spaceship at Rogers Military Base. The danger to Zan only becomes real when the military discovers Zan in the ship. When she wakes up, she only sees hands reaching for Zan and goes ballistic, killing all. As she flees the base, she's shot in the leg, a flesh wound. It does not impede her ability to reach the Valentis' home (another burst of superspeed?). At the Valentis, she intends to retreive the "key" to the 1947 spacecraft and Nasedo's letters. When she doesn't find them, she begins searching the house. When the Valentis arrive, she hightails it to the Evans's house where she expects to find Max (now living with Michael). It's only by accident that Max is even there. She gives Max the baby and promptly faints. The fainting could be real or it could be faked. For the benefit of Tess, say it's real. Her powers are somewhat depleted, not because of the gunshot wound, but because she has just killed a minimum of 16 people, engaged in superspeed, not to mention her knock on the head when the ship crashes. Or for the benefit of those who do not believe Tess, she fakes it in a plea of sympathy from Max which goes unnoticed as a stunned Max holds his son. Keep in mind that Tess, whose pleas for sympathy later, also fail and she eventually uses her son Zan to shield herself from Max and Michael's wrath. However good or bad a mother Tess is or is not, Tess the survivalist does use Zan to protect HERself. So Tess's instinct is "to survive." So she concocts the story about Kivar's betrayal as her "cover story." That being the case, as we move further into the story, why does Tess choose Liz as her driver? It has to do with the "vote." Jesse abstains. Tess doesn't know Jesse, but she learns Jesse is Isabel's husband. She would eliminate him immediately. Jim Valenti is out because he would not agree to drive her to the base. Kyle and especially Max for the same reason. Maria, Michael, and Isabel all voted against her so in Tess's eyes that means any one of them would be willing to kill her if push came to shove. That leaves Liz. Tess is surprised when Liz votes not to turn her over to the military, so much so that Tess wakes Liz and asks her why. Why? "Because I'm not a killer." Bingo. There's your answer. There's is nothing more that Liz wants [besides Max ;)] than to have Tess out of her life and if she can oblige without killing Tess, so be it. So Liz is the logical choice. Tess "believes" Liz. Liz is "not" a killer. She can trust Liz to do "her a favor" and not have to worry about Liz attempting to kill her. Tess asks her to drive her "someplace". It's possible she doesn't even tell Liz where at first. Liz retreives Maria's keys or maybe even has Maria's spare key. Once in the car, Tess gives Liz driving instructions to her destination. They avoid roadblocks with Tess using mindwarps as necessary, if necessary. Tess, who has already been on the base, has "scanned" the layout as Nasedo has taught her earlier. What she plans to do is risky, but it's her need to survive that drives her. And she can't survive and have freedom of movement unless everyone thinks she's dead. She directs Liz to a remote section of the base where Liz realizes that Tess is going "to sacrifice" herself. Except that is "not" what Tess expects to do. She expects to survive, but she needs a "witness" to her death and what better witness than Liz? Tess gets out of the car and enters the base through the fence. But Liz can't see this. The car is facing "the opposite direction". There is no way in which Liz can see what happens. All Liz sees is a flash and assumes Tess is dead because there's just "no way" anyone could survive such an explosion. Well, after we see Tess enter the base, we hear gunfire, followed shortly thereafter by an explosion. But an explosion of what? Tess was not planning to be captured. Tess was planning to survive. Tess wanted to go to base to retreive her spaceship. What if we assume that the explosion was not stolen dynamite as reported on the news, but Tess firing up her spaceship? Surely, such a blast within the confines of Rogers, would have been devastating to the base buildings, touched off explosions, and killed lots more people. Since Liz's face is looking away from the base and she only sees the flash, Tess could have gotten clean away and everyone, including the reliable witness, Liz, would presume Tess dead. Everyone would assume all the evidence -- spaceship, Tess's body would have been destroyed in the explosion. ... And that shot of Zan we see, is Zan, experiencing the abandonment of his mother as she wings it back into outer space to return at a future time to complete her bargain with Kivar. So it's possible, to keep the options open for a future franchise. It could be a really outrageous sleight of hand. And since there is no body, no proof, we have a grand soap opera ending for a grand soap opera return. The pressure remains on the pod squad. It keeps the special unit on their case perhaps to the point of forcing them to leave Earth. While the gang spends their time "doing good deeds and avoiding the law", it buys time for Kivar, Tess and whoever to set another trap for the pod squad and company. |
Bravo, Mommo! :clap: :clap: :clap:
The only addition I would request, would be for Tess to have mindwarped Liz and anyone else looking skyward so the trail from her Antar-bound spaceship would not be seen. |
Quote:
Kivar doesn't have Zan. Tess left Zan with Max. Max decided what to do with Zan. So Kivar can't use Zan as bait to draw Max. Kivar also knew where Max was when he came for Isabel. Kivar didn't try to take Max then. He couldn't use Zan as bait then to get Max to go to Antar, because Tess had escaped with Zan. If Kivar had wanted to use Zan as bait, Kivar would have held Zan hostage on Antar. Kivar didn't want Max, until he had a lineal Royal heir with Antarian blood, who could inherit the Seal of Antar, signifying the rightful ruler. Once Kivar had a child with Antarian blood from Isabel, he would have come for Max, killed Max, and the Seal of Antar would have passed to Isabel's child. |
The Real Momo, I definitely second that BRAVO from shapeshifter!! As I've stated before I love reading your posts, they're just excellent and ITA!!
:clap: :clap: :clap: |
Quote:
The audience knows that Tess didn't go to the base to retreive her spaceship. The spaceship was damaged in the crash. Tess had to leave the base, because her ship couldn't fly. The audience sees Tess enter the base through the fence. The audience hears men ordering Tess to stop. The audience hears shots being fired. The audience sees and hears an enormous explosion. Tess was shot at by people at the base. She didn't go to the base to fly her ship. If she had gone to the base to fly her ship, she would have done so stealthily. And she wouldn't have needed Liz to drive her to the base. Tess asked Liz to drive her to the base, so her arrival on the base wouldn't be traced back to Zan and the others. Tess wanted to be killed, so the government would stop hunting for an alien, so Zan, Max, and the others would be safe. When bullets didn't stop Tess, a highly explosive device was fired at Tess, killing her. ________________________________________________________________________ |
Quote:
Because the military fired a highly explosive device at Tess, Tess' body was incinerated. Nothing was left of her. The military was unsure if they had killed Tess. The military continued hunting for an alien, even after the explosion. So the military knew that Tess hadn't left in the spaceship. Otherwise, the military wouldn't have continued hunting for aliens in Roswell. [At a motel somewhere in Roswell, three men are meeting. One is an Air Force General, the other two are plain clothes.] 1st Man: One of my men picked this out of the rubble a couple of nights ago. [On the TV, a tape plays of Isabel surrounded by a whirlwind of flying objects.] General:...Is she the... thing... that destroyed our base? 1st Man: Possibly. So the military knew for certain that Tess hadn't left on the spaceship. Otherwise, the military wouldn't have continued looking for Tess in Roswell, after the explosion on the Air Force Base. _______________________________________________________________________ |
Algieba,
I agree with your rant :clap: and I'm adding two things that bug me
with that edious episode: In the end, after all that, and with all of
them thinking Tess had died to protect Zan, leaving him to his father's
care, Max, who is since S3 first episode desperate to find a way to get
is son back, decides to give away the baby in a flash, because he
doesn't want his son to be "a marked man". So, Tess died in vain. And
worst, what's the thing someone who does not want his son to be "a
marked man" do? He apparently implants in baby Zan the "Royal Seal of
Antar". Nice...
The other thing was deeply disturbing to me when I watched the episode: the death vote. Just who are these people voting death to someone? Who are they? They surely aren't the characters we knew. These are sick, perverted, people, looking for a vendecta, not justice. These are not the characters of Roswell Season 1 & 2. (I agree with Momo that Tess' death was filmed in a way that could enable them to bring her back and say she somehow escaped if there was to be a S4, because with that kind of brilliant ideas behind the scripts, everything is possible... :rolleyes: ) |
originally posted by Citrus and Vine
Quote:
Citrus, my original point regarding Zan is that Kivar sent Tess and Zan to Earth, not what happens afterward. It's "the reason" he sends Tess and Zan back -- to hopefully ensnare Max by again using Zan. Of course, it doesn't happen because the collision of Tess's ship with the military fighter puts a wrinkle in the original plan. Kivar is the enemy, Max's enemy, not Tess's. So Tess is working with the enemy, Kivar. Tess would agree to use Zan if it saved her own skin. Which she did -- several times. When Max thought of killing her in Departure and when Michael and Max thought about it in Four Aliens and A Baby. So Tess would easily agree to go back to Earth with Zan, dangling the bait. Keeping Zan on Antar made no sense. If Zan was 100% human and he was rejected Zan because he was genetically incorrect, he still needed to get rid of Max. Personally, I think Zan being 100% human was a non-issue, a made-up story. Why would the royal dynasty splice the the Antarian blood of the king with "human" blood at all if it meant the future dynasty would be "contaminated" and their reigns continually questioned by each succeeding King? Max didn't have a spaceship except for the 1947 spaceship which couldn't fly. That meant Kivar had to send Tess and Zan back in order to get Max back to Antar. However, intention and actuality are two different things. What neither Tess or Kivar could forsee was Tess's ship crashing and that the ship, Tess, and Zan would initially wind up at the military base. Certainly, Tess realizes that at this point Zan is in danger from the military, and as a mother (I hope), she would instinctively protect him.But at some point Tess has to choose, give Zan to Max and save her son, or let the military capture him and loose her bargaining chip. The choice is simple. By giving Zan to Max, she insures Zan's safety, while at the time, making sure Zan is alive for any possible future "traps" that might be set for Zan. While it appears Max is in the driver's seat, it's possible he's not. Zan was born on Antar, not earth. Antar's science appears to be more sophisicated than Earth's. If Antarians could control Brody from Antar (as Larek), who's to say what the Kivar and company could have done to Zan before he left Antar. It's possible that Zan could have an implant, a tracking device placed in his brain. Or the mother-son bond could be strong enough that Tess could sense where Zan was. So even if Zan was placed in adoption to "give him a normal human life", he could be safe from the military but not from Kivar or Tess. Also keep in mind that Zan was taken to NY, home of the Dupes. How long do you think it would be before Kivar and the Skins located Zan if he had an implant? As far as Kivar taking Isabel, well, we know Max is going to Antar on his own. He failed to get his son back. There is no Granilith to take him home; no 1947 spaceship that currently can fly without some form of "alien fuel". So Zan on Antar is no longer a viable form of bait. They need someone on Earth. And who better than the conflicted, confused, and vunerable Isabel? The sister who "betrayed" her family; the sister that Max loves. There are three people Max loves more than anyone in the world: his son, Isabel, and Liz. Liz has no Antarian connection (that we know of), so Isabel becomes the logical bait. Why? Because a part of Isabel "is" connected to Antar. Kivar was her lover and there was definitely a charismatic, Svengali attraction to him. Isabel could be manipulated. And by drawing Isabel to him (Kivar), Max would be sure to follow with Michael in tow. Kivar could get what he wanted -- the Royal Three. He already had Tess and the heir. He didn't need Isabel to give him a child. He had Zan. It didn't matter whether Zan was human or not. He needed an immediate solution which he had. Max would cede the crown to Zan. Kivar would act as Zan's regent til he reached "age". Kivar would maintain the real power while Zan grew up (which, of course, he wouldn't). In the meantime, Kivar would have Max, Isabel and Michael arrested for their ineptitude. Isabel would be tried for treason for letting the enemy into the gates and executed; Max would be proved "unfit" and "unworthy" and be sentenced to death; Michael would be tried for treason as a "usurper" thanks to the Courtney Skin contingent of Michaelworshippers. While Michael was loyal to the King, the fact that there was an army who wanted to put him on the throne was enough to seal his fate. Think Lady Jane Grey! Michael would loose his head. That left Tess and Kivar and Zan. Zan would find himself thrown in a tower somewhere where he mysteriously meets his death like Richard of England's nephews. Kivar would be free to marry Tess (perhaps part of the Nasedo Pact negotiated by Nasedo) and produce his own heir. Tess, as his queen, ends the Antarian dynasty of Max's family. But her ties through marriage might but enough to be viewed as a compromise between warring factions and legitimize Kivar's rule. Whether Kivar really loved Vilandra is up for debate with Interruptus when Michael says Kivar tricked Vilandra into opening the gates to Kivar's army. Clearly Vilandra was manipulated and Kivar did the manipulating. So Kivar probably did not love Vilandra, but played her for a sucker -- which is what he intended to do with Isabel. What Kivar hadn't planned on was the Isabel was "not" Vilandra. Her "human" feelings allowed her to break free of his control in the end; thus, Kivar's second plan fails ... which instituted the third ... send Tess and Zan back to Earth. As for the succession of the Royal line, are we so sure that Isabel's line would be accepted? The seal jumps from Max to Michael, not Isabel. It's a paternal line of succession. It's possible that a marriage to Isabel would not have produced the heir to the throne. I'd like to know why Isabel, a true royal, was overlooked in favor of Michael, especially when he was only the fiance. The rule of a nation is not ever given to a "fiance" of a royal, and in many cases, not even when they are married. For example, rule of England is with Elizabeth, not her husband. The line was definitely paternal. So was Michael a true royal in line to the throne and the next male in line? I've been thinking why the seal did not pass directly to Zan who was the true son of Max. While some say it's because he was human, maybe there is another reason here, too. Maybe it doesn't pass to Zan because he was not on Earth at the time of his father's death. He arrives afterward. Because the seal can't find Zan, it seeks the next male in the royal line: Michael. It would be interesting to know more about the interrelationships of the main Antarian players, but that's a subject for later. |
originally posted by Citrus and Vine
Quote:
If you follow a literal interpretation of Tess's actions, then yes, Tess probably did not go to retreive the spaceship. However, I'm dealing in "what ifs". We can not be positive why Tess went to the base. We do not know how badly the spaceship was damaged. A plane can fly with considerable damage if you know "how" to compensate for the damage. So while the spaceship could have been damaged, it still might have been flyable. The audience does see Tess go through the fence and hear shots. They "do not" see the actual explosion. They see only the flash of the explosion, "not what causes it". So we can play with the idea of "what caused" the explosion. We assume it is Tess. Ultimately Tess did not need Liz to drive her to the base. She could have stolen Maria's car on her own and then destroyed it or changed it. If she intended to kill herself, she could have done it without anyone's knowledge. She doesn't. She implicates Liz. She didn't need to do that, but she did. So there is a reason why she selects Liz to drive. Tess wanted to be seen. The only way Tess thought the military would stop chasing her was if they thought she was dead. That means she had to be seen. So she would not have gone steathily, but brazenly. They needed to identify Tess as the same alien as photographed during her escape. The positive ID she may have hoped would keep HER safe. They would still be looking for Zan. What everyone keeps forgetting is that the military was looking for not one alien, but "two". Plus they directly traced Tess to the Evans' home. And with the Isabel tape confiscated from the Evans' home, both Max and Isabel would remain under suspicion and consequently everyone around them -- even if Tess had sacrificed herself. I think most of us have concluded that Tess caused the explosion -- probably with a fireball (a la Wipe Out), not the military. But it's night, we don't see who or what causes the explosion, so it's open to conjecture. originally posted by Citrus and Vine Quote:
The fact that the military was unsure that Tess was dead lends credence to the idea that Tess survived supporting the idea that Tess "staged" her own death. However, if Tess really died, there would have been evidence. Even incinerated bodies leave trace evidence. The General also confirms that the "alien" cause the explosion that destroyed the base, not anything that was fired at the alien. So Tess did the deed and she could have done the damage by fireball or firing up the spaceship. It's the Special Unit that moves in and provides evidence to the military that there is more than one alien, not the other way around. That's why the military continues to hunt for aliens. The Special Unit plants that information to the military. And it's the military who authorizes the Special Unit to go after Max, Michael, Isabel and Liz. Also keep in mind that The Special Unit and the military knew about shapeshifters. So they could easily assume that Tess and Isabel are the same person. In any case, I think there is room to take the ending of Roswell in two separate directions -- Tess is dead or Tess is alive. Cases can be make equally either way. |
originally posted by greenglow
Quote:
I might be mistaken but I thought the "marked man" comments were directed toward Max and Phillip Evans, not Zan. Max, as a "marked man" is a target for the military and the "Special Unit" and Kivar and the Skins. He knows if he takes his son with him that he subjects his son to the same fears, enemies, experimentation and/or dissection (a la the White Room) and the very real possibility of death. Max knows that he has become his son's biggest danger. That's why he gives him up for adoptation, that his son who is 100% human, gets to have the chance of growing up "normal", having a 100% human life -- safe from the dangers Max will face all his life. So Tess did not die in vain. Zan has a chance of leading a normal, safe productive life. At the end of Four Aliens and A Baby, Max does not implant the Royal Seal, just a "memory" which he explains to Ma Evans when she asks what Max is doing. If you freeze frame, you will see it is not the Royal Seal, similar but no cigar. originally posted by greenglow Quote:
The vote was actually whether or not they turn Tess over to the military, not "to kill" Tess. Max's fear was that they would "do" to Tess what they had "done" to him in "The White Room". That was probably a correction assumption on Max's part. Kyle, Liz and Max firmly stood true to their character. This is really no change from Liz's position from the beginning. Max has wavered at times, but nonetheless, remains with pacifist leadings, and Kyle, the Buddha Boy, sticks by his religion. Jim Valenti, with his strong moral center, advises to the "wrongness" of the idea. Maria is acting on sheer emotion because of Alex's death -- an "eye" for an "eye"; in her eyes, this is only justice Alex will ever get. It's a human reaction where emotion gets in the way of clear thinking. When you love someone, you are not always rational. It doesn't make you sick or perverted, just human. Michael sees Tess as treasonous, willing to kill them if she did the opportunity. She is disloyl and therefore, the enemy. He takes the soldier's approach, kill or be killed. Perhaps it is his Antarian training kicking in? He, like Tess, is a survivalist he votes yes, turn her over. This is a similar position to the one he takes with Brody. Unlike Maria, he takes a cold position, leaving human emotions out of his decision. Isabel wavers, but in the end, votes against Tess because of her betrayal to them all and her feelings for Alex. What you see in these characters is actually similar to how they have reacted in the past. It is Isabel in S2 who suggests that the pod squad kill Brody to protect themselves with Michael's second. It is Max who stops them. It is Michael who agrees with Nasedo that they should kill anyone who learns their secret. So really, there is a pattern to their thinking. So, they are, in a way, the characters you see in previous seasons. That being said, it is the invention of humans that begins to change "how" the pod squad thinks and "vice versa". The normal channels of law and justice are not available to them, except through the limited protection Jim Valenti affords them. They are forced to make adult decisions in children's bodies. They are going to make mistakes. They become adults earlier than their peers because their experiences shape them. Liz, the planner, learns to think on her feet and go with the flow; Maria begins to learn to think for herself; Kyle learns about spiritual awareness; Max learns to come from behind the tree and accept who he is; Michael learns to be "human; Isabel learns learns to give herself to others as well as the idea of self-sacrifice. They are not sick or perverted, but just like the rest of us, trying to make sense of life and "do the right thing" ... and like most of us, sometimes you guess right and sometimes not. It's how we learn. |
Quote:
You'll have to excuse me Momo, but Maria is probably the *only* character on Roswell that is thinking for herself since day 1!!! On the other subjects, ok, it's your view... but I can't agree with that. Despite all, when in season 1 or 2 they talked about eliminating someone, they were always on the edge, frightened, faring for their survival. And everytime, they never pass to the act, because their moral strenght was always stronger. When Tess returns, looking for help, with a child on her harms, they want a vendetta!! Don't tell me it's human. Even hate is human. But only some sort of persons give in to hate. Or think that killing someone is justifieble. Or that they are intitled to judge others. |
Quote:
It mattered a great deal that Zan was human. Humans couldn't carry the Seal of Antar. When Max died healing Clayton, he was unable to carry the Seal of Antar with him into Clayton's body, because Clayton was human. Max lost the Seal of Antar, which then later passed on to Michael. Michael carried the Seal on his chest for all to see. Max, in contrast, carried the Seal in his brain. Max, not Michael, was the lineal royal ruler. Max was able to take back the Seal from Michael, after his new body had grown Antarian cells. The Seal of Antar was essential for certifying the true king. Without the Seal "stenciled" on the brain, an heir would not be a lineal, royal ruler. ______________ Zan could never be a true king of Antar, because he is human. _______________________________________ Being the King of Antar was very important. The true king had the power to bring people back to life from near death. Zan was human. He was useless to Kivar. Kivar wanted baby Zan dead, so that Zan wouldn't be around to pose any possible threat in the future. __________________________________________________________ Again, Zan was useless to Kivar, because Zan was human and couldn't carry the Seal of Antar, because he lacked Antarian blood. __________________________________________________________ ``````````````````````` screencap from Momo's Roswell (Thank you for your wonderful screencaps! :)) |
I
was just watching White Room and noticed something in one of the scenes
with Max and Pierce. Max is on the floor coming back to consciousness.
He opens his eyes and then in a flash he's up and grabbing Pierce
shoving him against the wall.
Pierce tells him he can't use his powers because he's drugged but it sure looked to me like Max moved at an unusual speed in order to get Pierce penned to the wall. Maybe it's the camera angle or what the camera doesn't show us but it almost resembles the way Clark Kent moves in Smallville when he's moving faster than a human can. It's so fast I can't follow the move. One second Max is on the floor, the next he's got Pierce up against the wall. I never saw any of the hybrids exhibit faster than normal movement except when Max stops the ball that Rath almost hit Tess and Max with in MITC. Max doesn't even look at the ball. He justs puts his hand out and snares it out of the air while he continues to eyeball Rath. It wasn't a normal human capability. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? |
Quote:
I love that scene! :) It was the first time after Max was captured that he made an oververt move to protect himself. Prior to that, Max had avoided doing anything unusual, so as to maintain his identity as a human. Max's quick speed may have kicked in as an automatic reflex to protect himself. Oftentimes, the aliens' powers kicked in when they were needed. For example, Michael, who had difficulty controlling his powers, was able to stop the humvee chasing Max and Liz. He also was able to kill Pierce. Max's fast movement in the white room was temporary, as the drugs redendered Max unable to protect himself further. Quote:
__________________________________________________________________ Quote:
The car's description and Max and Michael's descriptions are likely what led the military and former Special Unit members to investigate Max and Michael. The investigators assembled photographs of Michael and Max, as well as photos of their friends and relatives. `````````````````````````````````` screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries `````````````````````````````````` Quote:
The military was prepared for Tess and/or other aliens to attack the base. That's why the military had the highly explosive device at the Air Force base. In the hours after Tess left, the base had armed itself to counter an alien threat. Tess didn't have powers to cause a massive explosion on the base or anywhere else. Only the military had weapons of such massive destructive force. The military fired its weapon when Tess refused to stop. _____________________________________________________________________ |
originally posted by greenglow
Quote:
On the contrary, Maria was living in Liz's shadow and did not have the confidence to to step forward in her own light. "You were on your way to becoming a world-renowned scientist and I was going to be your wacky friend." Maria trailed Liz, living vicariously through Liz -- her romantic fantasies of Liz & Max as soulmates, Liz's blind date, etc. It took a while for Maria to see herself as an individual rather than an extension of Liz. Even in year three, Maria still says "Tell me what to do, Liz. You can see the future." Maria was afraid of being invisible. Given that, Maria had some of the best "one liners" on the show, and at times, showed spunk and real street smarts. Still, Maria had issues of confidence that often made her second guess her own thinking. By finally stepping into her "own light" does Maria gain her independence. originally posted by greenglow Quote:
greenglow, it's just a theory, not my view. As presented, I think we have to go with the idea that Tess is dead. The theory is just another way of turning the story around ... a way for the writers to bring back Tess should they have chosen to or just challenging perceptions. What you see and/or hear is not necessarily true. You say that the pod squad had the "moral strength" to stop themselves from killing, but it wasn't for Isabel nor Michael. Max stopped Isabel and Michael from killing Brody with his force shield. He physically prevents them from continuing. Max was the one with the moral strength, not Isabel nor Michael. As for "the vendetta", no one is saying that killing someone is justifiable. Vengence, unfortuntely, is very human if not humane. When injury is done to your family, family members want justice and when they don't get it, they often take just in their own hands as vigilantes. All you have to do is look at the news. Vendetta is not always about killing, it's about inflicting any kind of harm -- verbal, humiliation, and in the ultimate, murder. It's lack of mercy and compassion. Again, Maria, Isabel, and Michael were not voting to "kill" Tess, only "turn her over to the military". Is it vendetta? Sure, in the dictionary definition. Is it wrong to think that way? Sure, by everything we are taught in school, religion, law, and it goes against everything we hold dear as human. Is it understandable? Yes, because we "are" human with emotions ... and those emotions are not always held in check. Is it excusable? That depends. If you are really human and do not judge, yes, it's excusable. This is where compassion and mercy come into play. If you are human and let your emotions interfere with your head, no, it's inexcusable. All I am saying is that while their behavior was not what we, as humans, aspire to, we can understand "why" they decided "to turn" Tess in even if we do not approve. Yet I hear a lot of people excuse Tess for killing Alex, but should we? If killing is not justifiable, why is Tess not held accountable for Alex's death and all the 16 people she killed at the base? No one trusted Tess. Tess was prepared to send Michael, Isabel, and Max to their death. The intervention of Kyle, Maria and Liz prevented Tess from turning over Max, Isabel, and Michael to Kivar and their certain deaths. If Isabel and Michael wanted to turn Tess over to the military, then part of their decision was rooted by Tess's betrayal. While Maria's decision was wholly based on Alex's death, Michael and Isabel's decision was not. For them, it was also about self-preservation ... not just Alex. originally posted by Citrus and Vine Quote:
Frankly, we can't be sure that Zan was unable to carry the Royal Seal of Antar. If we take the tack the Antarians had no idea that Max and Tess would hook up and produce a "royal heir" with Zan, then Isabel should have been the successor to Max as his nearest living relative. However, the seal goes straight to Michael -- representing a male line of succession. Max loses the Seal because Max dies, not once, but twice. It has nothing to do with ClayMax. Max transfering "his essence" to Clayton would immediately contain Antarian blood cells to kick-start the cloning process. It's possible that Max doesn't even lose the seal when he dies in the fire. Remember, ClayMax says he can "feel" Max in his body. Max is "attached" to a body. It's possible that Max only loses the Seal when he takes the fall on the Winnamum (sp?) Academy and dies for the second time. Remember, when Liz kisses Max, he says "You brought me back". That means, to me, that Max's essence has left the ClayMax body and is literally floating without a host. When Liz kisses Max, it snaps Max's essence back into the ClayMax body. So, "flipping the switch" could have taken place then. When the switch flips, it flips to Michael. But why? You say it's because Michael has Antarian blood. I don't think so. I think it's because the genetic programming had to be sequenced to go somewhere and it had to be finite. Because no one knew what the future held, they had to pick one of the Royal Four. There could be no guarantee that a Royal heir would even exist ... ever. The programming required a known factor ... Michael, Isabel, Tess, Zan, Rath, Lonnie, Ava. I'm eliminating the Dupes immediately since it's been pretty clear that the Dupes were decoys, nothing more. That leaves Isabel, Tess, and Michael. Isabel is the True Royal by blood, but she's bypassed for unknown reasons. Tess is Royal by marriage only. The Queen or King's Consort is usually a figurehead ruler with no real political power so that eliminates Tess and leaves Michael. It, unfortunately, appears to be a gender choice ... Isabel's intended. Now, it's possible that Antarians followed the practise that once banns are legally posted, the engaged couple could take up marital relations before a ceremonial wedding took place. In such a case, in a male-dominated monarchy, Michael takes the throne and Isabel defers to her fiance. The Royal Seal appears on his chest. Michael knows he is King. However, it brings us to the interesting debate of why. If Michael were the true king of Antar, it probably would have moved to his head. It did not. If the genetic programming repesents a series of switches, then several options emerge in which Michael becomes king: 1. There is no heir. Max dies without children. Seal automatically goes to Michael. 2. There is an heir when Max dies, but a minor child, unable to take the reins of power -- like Zan. A regent rules as king until he becomes of age. Seal goes to Michael as regent. Perhaps, the position signifies that Michael rules as a regent king until Zan becomes of age. 3. There is no heir. Zan is not Max's child. Seal goes to Michael. 4. There is an heir, Zan, but Max's child is not on Earth to accept the Seal of Antar so another switch flips and it goes to Michael until such time as the Royal heir makes his presence known and the switch flips again. Since Max gets the Seal back before Zan gets to Earth, then it becomes a moot point. Max is king again and Zan doesn't get the Seal until Max dies again and he is "of age". 5. There is an heir, Zan, but he is not consider legitimate for technical reasons - Max and Tess aren't married in this incarnation and/or as you propose, blood is an issue. If Zan is the true heir (which he is technically even though he is human), then he becomes an underaged king who cannot rule on his own. A regent needs to be put in place to secure the throne. Michael, as Isabel's fiance and Max trusted second in command, would be the natural choice as regent. It makes sense. The position signifies that he is not the true king, but the appointed regent. If Zan is not the true heir, the position of the Seal may indicate that Michael is "acting King". Since he is not married to Isabel, then he is not the "true" King until a marriage takes place. As for Max taking back the Seal, I think it's merely a question of a missing switch. "Rising from the Dead" was not an option in the genetic programming, so Max forcibly had to take the Seal back. Of course, being King of Antar is important. That is precisely "why" Kivar will not give up the throne, but as "the usurper", Kivar needs to legitimize his rule. Kivar is a the "tyrant" (as noted in Ava's diary) and needs an image makeover. The only way he can do that is to make Max look bad which he succeeds to do at the Peace Summit. But with a faction (I'll call them royalists) supporting Max, Kivar still needs to placate that faction to prevent them from rising against him. Royalists, who believe in the monarchy and rightful succession, will dispose of a "bad king" if there is a "rightful heir" to replace him. That's Zan, the "underage" king. Kivar doesn't even have to tell Antar's subjects that Zan is 100% human. Why? Because The Royalists will believe they have their substitute king. Kivar can legitimately continue to rule as Zan's regent and maintain the political power. Kivar then is free to kill Max as "the bad king" with public approval, and later kill Zan (before he reaches maturity). Kivar comes out looking good, gets everything he wants, and past wrongs are forgiven and/or forgiven. So Zan continues to be important to Kivar, human or not, on Antar and on Earth. P.S. Though Zan was human, he still could grow into a human with unusual powers. Nasedo tells Michael in The White Room that the pod squad powers -- "all that you can do is human." Therefore, while Zan "is" human, he may have many of Max's and Tess's powers, including psychic healing. ;) originally posted by Citrus and Vine Quote:
While it was probable the a "high alert" was in effect at the military base, it is highly unlikely that the military would have fired a weapon at Tess that would have destroyed their own base. Such devestation would have be touched off by Tess. The general knew the destruction at the base was "alien" in nature. And Tess did have the power to create such massive damage. Beside her powers, which we saw in use, she also had the spaceship. Even if you believe her powers were weakened, she had the ability to use the spaceship to destroy the base by flying it or exploding it. originally posted by Algieba Quote:
Tess also showed signs of superspeed. In "Four Aliens and A Baby", when the scientists try to take baby Zan from the spaceship, Tess uses unusual speed to attack and kill the 16 scientists in order to protect Zan. If though we don't actually see her, we are given the impression that something is moving very quickly throughout in the clean room. We later learn this is Tess. originally posted by Algieba Quote:
This was also true of Isabel when Whitaker attacks Isabel and Tess with the live electrical power line. Isabel musters the strength to repel the electrical charge and kill Whitaker. Until this time, most of Isabel's powers had been used recreationally (except the dreamwalk in The White Room). Same for Liz who also was coping with controlling her newfound powers. When ClayMax attacks her in Chant Down Babylon, she instinctively protected herself with a defensive blast. |
Quote:
Tess arrived in a spaceship. She killed 16 people, without being stopped. She escaped the base, without being stopped. The military believed they were up against a formidable alien force. The military at the Air Force Base had sufficient time after Tess left to evacuate the base of all key personnel, in case of subsequent attack. The military had time to set up a highly explosive weapon to knock out the threat that Tess represented. Some men stood guard around the immediate perimeter of the base. They spotted Tess and fired shots. They would have reported seeing a woman who wouldn�t stop at their command. At that point, the highly explosive device was fired to destroy the alien. The loss of human life at the base was deemed acceptable, as key personnel had already been relocated to other places, before Tess arrived on the base again. (We know that the military found it acceptable and expedient to kill Col. Griffin, who was an innocent man. So, it�s understandable that the military would also be willing to sacrifice some military persons still on the base, in the interests of making certain that Tess was destroyed.) _____________ screencap from Momo�s Roswell __________________________________________________________________ |
Quote:
Zan was born, before Max died. Zan didn�t receive the Seal. Isabel lay near death shortly after Max was killed. The Seal may have bypassed Isabel, because she was dying and unable to receive the Seal. (It would be counterproductive for the Seal to go to a dying person.) So Isabel could have been the next in line for succession, following Max�s death, as Max didn�t have a child with Antarian blood when he died. (Zan was human.) From what we know thus far, we cannot say whether or not females could be lineal royal rulers on Antar. We know that Zan was human. Otherwise, Max wouldn�t have had Zan adopted, as he loved Zan and he wanted Zan to be safe among other humans. We know that Zan was male, and that males could carry the Seal. We can say for certain that Zan didn�t receive the Seal after Max died, even though Zan had been born, was male, and was alive at the time of Max�s death. So we know for certain that Zan was unable to carry the Seal of Antar. ___________________________________________________________ |
originally posted by Citrus and Vine
Quote:
Yes, Zan was born before Max died and Zan didn't receive the Royal Seal. I also think probably the line of succession was male rather than female and that's why Isabel was bypassed. But, as you say, we don't have enough info to absolutely draw that conclusion. However, we also don't know absolutely that Zan was not "unable" to receive the Seal, only that he didn't. The theories I'm presenting are possible reasons why Zan was bypassed -- other than being human. 1. Zan could have been bypassed because he was "underaged" and not capable of ruling. So Michael is the authorized regent which could explain "why" the Royal Seal goes to his chest rather than his brain. 2. Zan could have been bypassed because when you make a program, you have switches - if this happens, go here. For example, it's like a computer program - if this happens, go to line 3. Therefore, you specify a defined destination. So when Max dies, the Seal needs a defined location. Michael is a "known" factor; Zan was an "unknown" factor. Because you cannot send a Seal to an "unknown destination", Michael becomes the recipient for the Seal because Michael is a "known" quantity. 3. Zan was not physically present at Max's death. This does not mean than Zan was not born, but only that his location on Antar could have prevented transfer of the Seal directly from Max to Zan. Thus, Michael becomes an intermediary on Earth and could explain why the Seal again rests on his chest rather than his brain. Had Max remained dead and Zan still comes to Earth, it would have been interesting to know what happens to the Seal. As far as Isabel being bypassed because she was dying, I think that's unlikely. I think "the switch" is pretty basic. When you die, go here. Because Isabel was still alive, Isabel would have gotten the Seal if the switch has been designed to go to a True Royal, regardless of gender. Then, if Isabel died, the switch would flip again and go to Michael. Because the switch went to Michael, the Antarians programmed it specifically to go to Michael. Zan probably didn't even enter into it. |
originly posted by Citrus and Vine
Quote:
If I remember correctly, the base had not been evacuted and there was substantial loss of life. That would not have been acceptable, nor would have been the loss of the entire base or the loss of an extraterrestial spaceship. |
The
Air Base wasn't destroyed. The military was able to recover things from
the base, including the tape of Isabel using her powers.
The men at the base had seen what Tess had done earlier. They were prepared in the event that she or other aliens returned to the base. The military fired the highly explosive device that killed Tess. |
Quote:
The Seal was designed to go to the next person in succession. If Isabel had been conscious, the Seal might have gone to her, and then she might have received it. However, since Isabel was gravely injured and near death, she didn�t receive the Seal. It�s also possible that the Seal only passed to males. ____________________________________________________________ |
Quote:
Making Max look bad didn�t help Kivar. King Zan was killed by Kivar. For over 50 years, Max-Zan hadn't returned to Antar to help his people. Kivar didn�t need to do anything further to make Max look bad. Kivar needed something to make himself look good. He needed a royal, lineal heir he could control. Kivar hoped to get that with Tess and Max�s child, baby Zan. Zan was human, which is why Kivar didn�t accept Zan, and why Kivar wanted to kill Zan. When Kivar failed to get a lineal, royal child from Tess and Max, he turned his attentions to Isabel. Kivar wanted a lineal, royal heir from Isabel, as was illustrated in the concocted book Tess gave Michael in the podchamber. (The phony book had pictures of both Tess and Isabel pregnant.) ____________________________________________________________ |
I
like the idea of the Royal Seal not going to Isabel because she'd been
shot and was dying. The sequence of events seems like a natural set up
for this line of reasoning. Maybe they just didn't have time to develop
it.
Somewhere around the last page someone complained that Max gave up his son to protect him, but then marked him with the Royal Seal. Actually, Max told his mom it was "just a memory," but why did it look like the seal? Maybe so Zan would recognize Max if he ever saw him again? |
Quote:
I also think that Max might have wanted Zan to be able to recognize him, if they ever met again, shapeshifter! :) Or maybe it was something to let Zan remember where he was from. Perhaps Max also gave Zan a memory that he was loved. :) The Seal wasn't the same as the starry things Max transmitted to Zan. The Seal, in contrast, had five distinct dots spaced in a right angle (90 degree angle). screencap from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries and Momo�s Roswell |
Quote:
The powers Liz gained seem similar to Michael�s powers. For example, Liz got a flash of the college acceptance letter, when she held the envelope. Michael got a flash of Atherton�s dome, when he held the key. (Max also got a flash of things, when he held the CD Kyle left for Liz in her room.) Michael�s powers hurled Pierce. Liz�s powers hurled Tess. Michael had precognitive dreams of being killed before they went to Las Vegas. He also had the dreams every night around the time Liz started having precognitive dreams of being killed. ````````````````````````````` Quote:
I agree that Zan, because he was Tess and Max�s child, might develop special powers, even though he was human. :) I think Nasedo probably lied to Michael about Michael�s powers being human. Humans couldn�t do the things Michael could do. And though Nasedo might have traveled to the future to see what humans could do in the future, Michael already had powers like other aliens. (The Skins sent out force fields. Nasedo, who wasn�t human, could change fingerprints, which Michael learned to do.) So Michael�s powers were alien powers. Nasedo just didn�t want Michael to get too good with his powers, because Nasedo wanted to control Michael, so he could carry out Kivar�s wishes. I think that�s why Nasedo told Michael his powers were human powers. Nasedo didn�t need Michael�s help to rescue Max. Nasedo could have gotten Max out of the White Room all by himself. He knew the facility. He knew exactly where Max was, even though he claimed that he couldn�t get through the security door that checked bone structures. Nasedo knew all about the Special Unit. He had arranged things, so Max would be captured. Nasedo wanted Pierce to get the orb away from Max, so Max would be unable to communicate with the Royal allies. Nasedo was afraid to try to take the orb from Max, when they were in the desert, because if Max had told Nasedo to stop or to give back the orb, Nasedo would have had to comply with Max�s instructions. Nasedo didn�t want Max to know that Max could give him instructions. Nasedo wanted to carry out Kivar�s wishes. |
I
hadn't noticed the similarities between Liz & Michael's powers
until you pointed them out. This could indicate that she too was moving
into a place to accept the Royal Seal if Max died.
About the powers being human--I believe Nasedo also said they were "more evolved." (I'm supposed to be either packing for our latest move or looking up Greyhound shipping charges--not Roswelling. ;) ) But if Max and Tess were both "more evolved," then wouldn't Zan be too? Just think, we are right now spreading seeds of inspiration for a show titled something like Roswell: Next Generation. Or maybe Roswell: Next Incubation. :lol: |
There
are many questions in my mind about the justification for killing Tess.
After thinking about all the reasons everyone put forth, I have to say
that Jim Valenti was the only one who really had it right. He said, "We
shouldn't be doing this." He was right. None of them had the right to
pass judgement on Tess.
Turning Tess over to the military was the same as a death sentence. First there would be torture but eventually she would probably have died at their hands. It was also a stupid idea because the interrogators could possibly have gotten valuable information out of her that would have led them to the others. So who, of all those voting had the right to make that decision, to be the judge and jury? Who was without sin and had the right to throw the first stone? Not Kyle because he wouldn't even give Tess the chance to defend herself by letting her tell her side of the story. According to Kyle, murderers don't get to defend themselves. That's not part of the American judicial system so Kyle must have had some system of his own. Not Isabel because she made the decision to kill an innocent man based on circumstantial evidence, a man who had a daughter who was dying of cancer. Isabel didn't attempt to use her ability of dreamwalking to try to find out the truth about Brody. Nor did she want to confront him directly as Max eventually did to try to find the truth. Instead she chose to execute a man because he used an alien device to repell someone who had broken into his place of business. And he had stuff on his computer about the date they had activated the orbs. Methods such as dreamwalking or confronting Brody directly might not have worked but the point is she chose death at her hands for another human being or alien, whichever he was, relying on her own faulty conclusions about his intent. She had no evidence that he was the one who killed Nasedo. Brody did not come after her. He was not directly threatening her. And he was innocent. Fortunately Max stopped both her and Michael. Not Michael, because in addition to wanting to kill Brody, he declared that he was going to kill a man that he knew was innocent, namely Denny, the man whose body was used by Kivar. Michael knew Denny was a victim of Kivar, not a willing participant. Michael, twice, stated he was going to kill him. Max, again, steps in and says no. Another one of Michael's decisions to kill someone was also prevented by Max. Believing that Jesse had betrayed them, Michael decided to take on the role of judge, jury and executioner. This time it wasn't a stranger. This time it was Isabel's husband, a man she deeply loved. Not Liz, because she screamed at Tess, "I'll kill you," and threw her across the room against a wall. That's how Michael killed Pierce so Liz's action could have killed Tess. Was it an emotional reaction? Yes. Would she have served time in prison if she was actually tried in a U.S. court of law for being responsible for Tess' death? Maybe. Maybe not. But at least she would have been tried by an impartial jury. Then she demanded that Max promise that Tess pay for what she had done. Why does Liz get to force Max to make that decision? When she is held responsible for making her own choice about Tess instead of insisting Max do it, she chooses to not make her pay. Maria. She never killed anyone. She never made a decision to try to kill anyone. She was grieving over her friend's death but does that give her the right to decide on Tess' fate? It gives her a say in the matter. She can't go to any human authority to seek justice. She can't kill Tess by herself, so what does she have a right to do? She had already offered to turn Tess in to the military when she and Liz are sitting in the Crashdown discussing what had happened when Liz saw Tess. Yet Maria knew the things that Michael had done and never condemned him for it. Why? Didn't she care about Brody and his daughter? Didn't she think Denny and Jesse had a right to live? Her boyfriend was going to kill them. She isn't trying to turn him in. It's kind of ironic that Tess wouldn't even have had to worry about Maria's decision if she hadn't saved Maria from that Skin in the UFO center in Wipeout. But then, neither Max, Michael or Isabel would have to have been making any decisions about life or death if Tess hadn't saved all three of them from death in Wipeout. And helped get Max out of the White Room. And helped Michael avoid arrest for killing Pierce (and ending up in the White Room himself where they would have done to him what he was wanting them to do to Tess). Then there's the matter of Max's son. He would be in the custody of the government living the life of a lab rat it Tess hadn't killed to save him. What would Max have done to save his son? What about Max? Did he have the right to turn Tess in? He made the decision for himself. He chose mercy. In comparing Isabel and Michael's behavior to Tess', I find their choices much more heinous. Tess used her power to get someone to help her get back to Antar. I don't think it has been proven that she wanted Max, Michael or Isabel to die at Kivar's hand. She repeatedly stated that she did not intend to kill Alex, that she didn't know the mindwarp would kill him. She was raised by someone who convinced her that her life was in danger. From her earliest childhood, she was hunted by humans and was told by Nasedo that she would be tortured and imprisoned if she was caught. She wanted to get away from Earth and go home. She behaved like an abandoned soldier in enemy territory. When she finally found her family, she did everything she could to keep them safe and alive, including using mindwarps, which by the way, they all accepted and approved of as just another one of the powers they could use to stay safe. Isabel stated that she intended to kill Brody. Michael stated that he intended to kill Brody, Denny and Jesse. Those were conscious decisions to deliberately kill someone. Why shouldn't they be turned over to the authorities just like Tess? Would Brody's family have been justified in killing Isabel, Michael and Max in revenge for Brody's death? Would Denny's wife have the right to hunt down Michael and kill him? Or should these family members turn them over to the Special Unit to be studied, prodded, tortured and possibly killed? Brody, Denny and Jesse were innocent humans. They lived only because Max thwarted Isabel and Michael's attempts to kill them. What if Isabel and Michael make another faulty judgement and decide to kill someone else who threatens their existence? How do they get to walk the earth free while condemning Tess for doing accidently what they tried deliberately to do? Even for those who believe Tess was a murderer and should be punished, I cannot understand why they don't feel the same about Isabel and Michael. To me, their actions are every bit as frightening for humans as Tess' actions were. I would be just as dead if Isabel or Michael made a false assumption that I was a threat to them as I would be if Tess used her power on me. On the one hand, I could be killed because I appeared threatening and on the other I could be killed because I was weak. Either way I'd still be dead. |
At
last. What I�ve been searching for. Someone who will speak up for Tess
as Tess, instead of just vilifying Tess or vilifying the writers! :)
Lest we forget, Max began to murder �Leanna�- Jennifer Coleman, because he wanted to protect Liz and the others before he left Earth. Liz gave Max the information that implicated Jennifer as Alex�s killer. And except for Jennifer�s timely needle prick, both Liz and Max would have been responsible for the death of an innocent college student. You ask, �So who, of all those voting had the right to make that decision, to be the judge and jury? Who was without sin and had the right to throw the first stone?� Because Tess brought her problems to them, they each had a right to decide what they thought should happen, regarding Tess. Had Tess not become a threat to their own safety, they wouldn�t have had a right to decide what they should do about Tess. Jim Valenti could be impartial, because he was older, more experienced, and genuinely cared about Tess as a real parent would care for his own child. Kyle felt betrayed by Tess� mindwarps. He knew Tess as a friend, though, and he didn�t want her turned over to the military, either. Max had known Tess as a friend and as a lover. Tess was the mother of his child. Max didn�t want Tess turned in, either. Isabel and Michael judged Tess harshly, because Tess was one of them, and because Tess told Max that Nasedo's deal with Kivar was for her to hand them over to Kivar. Maria judged Tess harshly, because she loved Michael, who almost left Earth, because of Tess. Maria also cared about Liz, and she knew that Liz didn�t like Tess. Liz voted not to turn Tess in, but she later agreed to take Tess to the base. I love Roswell, because it allows for contemplation of various alternatives, if one is so inclined. I think you, Algieba, are the one person who has offered the most compassionate alternative solution to what happened. You have in the past suggested that Tess should have been forgiven, as others were forgiven, and that the group should work to help Tess, because others in the group had been forgiven for mistakes and wrongdoing. That said, I�m not sure that Tess needed to be forgiven. Tess acted as she did, and others did similar things. I think shapeshifter also offered the most compassionate solution that might have prevented the End of the World in the first place. In the past, she has suggested that things might have been different, if Tess and Liz had been able to become friends. I wouldn�t want the storyline changed, however, as much as I might like all of the characters to be alive and live happily ever after. Stories, I think, are mostly told to deal with conflict. Without conflict in a story, there isn�t much of a story. `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Quote:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :rotfl: |
Originally posted by Algieba:
"Turning Tess over to the military was the same as a death sentence.
First there would be torture but eventually she would probably have
died at their hands. It was also a stupid idea because the
interrogators could possibly have gotten valuable information out of
her that would have led them to the others."
REPLY: It would have been a death sentence, and the military might have obtained valuable information from Tess. For that reason, had the group decided to turn Tess in, Max, Michael, and Isabel would have had to leave Roswell even sooner than they actually did leave. Probably, if they took time to think things through, they would have decided that they couldn�t afford to let Tess be turned in. The question was resolved, though, because the group voted not to turn Tess over to the military. One of the problems Max, Michael, and Isabel face is that they are identifiable extraterrestrial aliens. Another problem they face is that Kivar is still around, so they will have to figure out how to handle him and any other hostile aliens, if their life on Earth or elsewhere is ever to be safe. ____________________________________________________________ |
Hi, shapeshifter.
Packing and moving are bad words. Bad, bad words. I have moved too many
times. I can't stand clutter, packing or moving. This summer I had to
bring all my school stuff home because I'm being transferred to another
school. My home looks like a classroom. It's worth it though because my
new school is brand new with state of the art everything. I'm not use
to having things that actually work so it will take some getting use to.
Liz did seem to have powers that p ut her in the exclusive royals club. I don't see how she could have been an heir to the throne or qualify to receive the seal though. She was human. Zan was human and that disqualified him. He may develop powers too but that doesn't make him alien, just an advanced human. When Liz and Max married did that make Liz the queen? We don't know if Tess was royalty in her own right or just royal because she married the king. If we did know, that would answer the question. Whether or not the Antarians would accept Liz is another question. Maybe they should. She would make a beautiful, devoted queen and the Antarians could use a little humanity in their genetic pool. If Kivar and the Skins are any indication of the level of moral character on Antar, they could use a lot of humanizing. The Real Momo. I had forgotten about Tess moving so rapidly in 4AAAB. I remember when I first saw it, I thought there was some other alien on the ship with her that did all the killing because of the speed with which it was done. Citrus. I left out Max's attempt to kill Leanna. Forgot all about that too. What a tragedy that would have been. Liz really came through on that one. She saved Leanna's life. Of course, she's the one that incorrectly identified Leanna as an alien to start with. I've read all the thoughts on the royal seal and who would or would not be the next in line but I can't come to a conclusion. There's so many things we don't know about Antar and the way their government worked. For instance, I've always wondered if the royalty of Antar had their positions because they had powers that other Antarians did not. Sort of like a royal elite with their subjects being ordinary like humans. The shapeshifters had powers too but that doesn't mean every race on Antar was the same. I'm feeling like I was a little hard on Isabel because she, unlike Michael, learned from her mistake. She never again tried to kill a human just because she was worried they would hurt her. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) She was always worried that who she was would bring harm to others. And it did. Grant died because the ship the podsters came in released the Gandarium into the ecosphere. Alex died because he got close to the aliens and tried to help them. Pierce almost got him in Crazy. Jesse was kidnapped by the Special Unit and would have been killed if he hadn't defended himself. Isabel saved Laurie Dupree even at the risk of her own life. I don't recall any more instances of Isabel going after a human with only spotty evidence like she had against Brody. |
Originally posted by Algieba: "I don't recall any more instances of Isabel going after a human with only spotty evidence like she had against Brody."
Isabel and Michael wanted Brody dead, because Brody had an alien device that rendered Michael helpless. Isabel and Michael were taking practical steps to keep themselves safe. screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries ```````````````````````````` Originally posted by The Real Momo: "No one trusted Tess. Tess was prepared to send Michael, Isabel, and Max to their death." REPLY: The Granilith was preprogrammed by the Royal allies to return the Royal Four home, in safe territory away from Kivar. Until Tess saw the flash of Max and Liz kissing, as she and Max kissed, Tess wasn�t going to hand over Michael, Isabel, or Max. Before Max kissed her, Tess asked, �Max, are you sure you want to do this?�E Tess cared whether or not Max wanted to go to Antar, because she loved him. Tess was upset that Max had kissed Liz. If Tess was only concerned about handing Max, Michael, and Isabel over to Kivar, she wouldn�t have asked Max whether or not he wanted to go. And if Tess hadn�t loved Max, she wouldn�t have cared that Max kissed Liz. Tess decided to hand Max, Michael, and Isabel over to Kivar, when she realized that Nasedo had been right, and that she shouldn�t have trusted Max or fallen in love with him. When Liz broke up with Kyle, Kyle planned to destroy Max. When Tess saw the flash of Max and Liz kissing, she wanted to destroy Max. With time, Kyle got over his wish to destroy Max. With time, Tess and Max might have worked through Max kissing Liz, while Tess was pregnant with Zan. Although Roswell at times centers on the love story between Max and Liz, other love stories are told as well. Tess loved Max. In the previous timeline, Tess didn�t attempt to carry out Kivar�s plan. Instead, Tess eventually left Roswell. If Tess had been intent on carrying out Kivar�s wishes, Tess would have stayed in Roswell until the end. Or Tess would have joined Kivar and helped Kivar. If Tess had joined Kivar in the previous timeline, Future Max and Future Liz of the previous timeline wouldn�t have had the Granilith to use, because Tess knew where the Granilith was. If Tess had joined Kivar, Future Max wouldn�t have had the crystal to operate the Granilith, because Tess had control of the crystal. If Tess had only been intent on destroying her fellow podsters in the previous timeline, she would have hidden the crystal or taken the crystal away with her, so that Max couldn�t use the Granilith. Instead, Future Max had the crystal needed to activate the Granilith, when he traveled back in time. ______________________________________________________ |
Many
of the aliens in Roswell were very like humans with a different home
planetary address from humans, plus some special powers. Max, Michael,
Isabel, and Tess were from Antar. The Skins were very human-like,
despite their need to wear husks to protect themselves from Earth�s
harmful atmosphere. The shapeshifters were very different aliens.
The shapeshifters, because they could look like and sound like anyone, had several built in constraints. The shapeshifters had to obey direct instructions from Max, the King. They could not personally kill the King. These two constraints were built into the shapeshifters to safeguard the real King. Otherwise, the shapeshifters could simply kill the King and take his place, with no one being the wiser. Kal and Nasedo each pretended to be protectors. However, both Kal and Nasedo had their own agendas. Neither of them helped Max, unless directly instructed by Max to do certain things. Nasedo didn�t help Max, until he was forced by circumstances to pretend he was helping Max escape the White Room. Nasedo later complied with Max�s instruction that he replace Pierce. Kal didn�t help Max, until Max gave Kal direct instructions. Until that point, Kal did everything he could to keep Max away from the spaceship, which Kal pretended would never fly. After Kal briefly flew the spaceship, Kal pretended that he was exhausted, having done nothing more than shapeshift and briefly fly the ship. Nasedo, in contrast, never experienced complete exhaustion after shapeshifting, so probably Kal was faking his symptoms. We also know that Kal couldn�t experience pain. So Kal was more likely than not trying to guilt Max into staying away from him and the spaceship in the future. Kal, who was an experienced man of the world, convinced Max that Max had ruined Kal�s life. Kal also told Max that as King on Antar, Max had always been selfish and ungrateful. When Liz experienced problems with her powers, Max wanted to drive with Liz to California to get Kal�s help for Liz. Liz declined. Perhaps one day, Max and Liz would reconsider ways in which Kal could help them in the future. :) |
Citrus
I understand that Isabel and Michael were trying to protect themselves from Brody. I still think it was a rash decision based on insufficient evidence that Brody was an enemy. The fact that Brody had an alien device did not make him an enemy. Using it on Michael who had illegaly broken into the UFO center did not make Brody an enemy. It made him worthy of suspicion but in no way made the decision to kill him justified. There is no reason why Isabel and Michael should assume that they are the only good aliens on Earth. The message they sent out on the day they activated the orbs could have been received by friend and foe alike. Someone from Antar could have been trying to reach them to find them and help them. They wouldn't necessarily have known what the hybrids looked like and might be trying to locate them by the orb signal. Brody turned out to be an innocent human but he just as easily could have been an innocent alien using an alien device to protect himself. Michael wasn't attacked until he committed an illegal act, breaking and entering. Brody did not come to his home, accost him on the street or in any way threaten him. The threat was in Isabel's and Michael's head. It didn't exist. They overreacted because of Nasedo's death. It is even kind of egocentric for Isabel, Michael and Max to assume that the only aliens on planet Earth have to be from Antar and hunting them. There could be aliens on Earth that have nothing to do with them and could care less about their identity. |
Brody
didn�t exactly act like an innocent human being in the eyes of the
podsters. Brody came in overnight and took over the UFO Center. Brody
had tracked the signal from the orbs to Roswell. Brody told Max to tell
no one what he was doing, when he was arranging things in the UFO
Center.
Brody didn�t identify himself as an alien, who wanted to help the podsters, so the group knew that Brody was unlikely to be an ally. If Brody had known about the podsters, he would likely have behaved in a friendly manner towards Max, who could potentially be the person who set off the orbs. Instead, Brody fired Max, when Max demonstrated an interest in what Brody was doing. Isabel didn�t dreamwalk Brody, because they thought that Brody was an alien, as he had an alien device that rendered Michael helpless. Such a device didn�t forebode innocence or a helpful alien. If Isabel had tried to dreamwalk Brody and he had detected what she was doing, her dreamwalking him could potentially lead him straight to her and the other podsters. We know what happened when Isabel tried to connect with Larek through Brody, at a time when the podsters knew that Brody wasn�t an alien. Isabel was forcefully repelled, as was Brody. Brody nearly died. We also know that when Tess attempted to mindwarp Brody/Larek, Brody was aware of what Tess was trying to do to him, and he used the device against Tess and Max, rendering their powers useless. Once we are aware that Brody wasn�t a hostile alien, we can contemplate whether or not Michael or Isabel should ever have wanted to kill Brody. But absent such knowledge and with no available way of finding out more about Brody, Michael and Isabel�s instincts to kill Brody before he could harm the podsters were sound instincts. Max had spent more time with Brody. And Max was willing to put his life on the line, in case he was wrong about not killing Brody. Brody turned out to be an innocent and inquisitive abductee. Because Isabel and Michael had wanted to kill Brody, while Max had been uncertain of what to do, the audience has the opportunity of learning how the podsters will deal with their problem. Ask Not is one of my favorite episodes for many reasons. I especially enjoyed the comments you posted in February 2003, over a year ago, Algieba. This is what you said. Originally posted by Algieba In Ask Not, comparing Max's decisions and questions about leadership to President John F. Kennedy's decisions in the Cuban Missile Crisis was a stroke of genius. If they'd picked a present day leader, there would have been the interference of the individual political opinions of the viewers. Better to choose a leader whose handling of a potentially devastating conflict is held in high regard by most everyone. The questions facing Kennedy were profound. His handling of the situation was brilliant. But Kennedy had years of training and experience behind him. He was an officer in the military where he participated in a real war. Real people died based on decisions he made. How appropriate to use his decisions as an example of the kind of monumental decisions Max will be called upon to make. There are three scenes with Max in the high school history class. The teacher's lesson brings back fond memories of some of my history teachers in high school and college who kept me spellbound with their lectures. The first lecture brings home to me that Max is truly being faced with decisions that could change the future of the world and yet he's still just a high school kid. The teacher says: "What does it mean to be a leader? In the Fall of 1962 John Kennedy was still a young man. The Soviets thought he was a pushover and at that point most Americans would have agreed. And yet, John Kennedy would rise to the occasion, face down the Soviets and bring the world back from the brink of nuclear war. Now this week as we study the missile crisis in detail, I want you to think of John Kennedy, the man. Think what it would feel like to hold the fate of an entire nation in your hands. Imagine what it would be like to come face to face with the very real possibility that your next decision could literally mean the end of the world." Max's expression shows he doesn't have to imagine it. He's living it. This coupling of a real crisis and a real leader with the alien king's crisis and need to make a decision makes Max's search for answers believable. Max's dilemma doesn't seem like some hokey, scifi fantasy. Rather, it gives the story a serious tone. It made me ask myself how I would feel if I was in a similar situation. I started to imagine what it would be like if I had to make a life or death decision. From there, I began to wonder if the burden of command isn't more of a curse than a blessing. So many seek power, but how many can actually make the hard decisions that have to be made, especially in time of war? How do you live with a decision that results in the battle won but lives lost? I don't know if I could do it. Probably won't ever have to but it gives me a greater respect for those who must make these decisons. In the next scene in the classroom the teacher stresses that "....unless he acts and acts soon, he runs the risk of allowing events to control him. So, right or wrong, a choice has to be made. And, it has to be made right now." Max is trying to decide what to do about Brody. If he waits too long, someone else might die. The final scene reinforces the idea that the final decision rests not with your advisors or your critics or anyone but yourself. "....But is it the right move, at the right time?....in the end , it's his call. And whatever course he chooses, history will be his final judge." Later, Max talks with Maria, wondering how Kennedy knew what decision to make. Max makes a decision, based on input from others, but in the end, when he finally has to act, he turns inward as Maria had advised and trusts his heart. He refuses to go against his own instinct of who he feels he really is. When the time comes that he has to make a decision, he knows exactly what to do and he does it. He places the responsibility and the danger of his decision on himself alone. I think the peaceful resolution of the dilemma shows he is a natural and gifted leader. I would say of Max, what Nicholas said of Courtney after she killed herself rather than let potentially damaging information fall into the hands of the enemy, "Now, that's a soldier!" The more I see of this story, the more I love it. Thanks again, for all your wonderful comments, Algieba! :) :) :) ______________________________________________________ screencap from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries |
In
thinking about what you have written, Algieba, my guess is that you are
saying that Isabel and Michael shouldn�t have judged Tess so harshly on
her return to Earth, without getting more facts first. I�m guessing
that you are basing your ideas on the fact that Isabel and Michael had
been wrong about Brody, and so they should have known that they could
have been wrong in their opinion about Tess.
I�m further guessing that your position would be that Tess wouldn�t have sacrificed her life at the base, if she had had positive support from Isabel, Michael, and Max. If that is your idea, then I think that would be true. I think you hold that Tess� death in this timeline creates the same problem that resulted in the end of the world in the previous timeline. In other words, the group is still without Tess in this timeline. As you have pointed out, Kivar is still around. Perhaps it would take additional timeline changes before Earth could ever be safe from extraterrestrial aliens. Or perhaps the group would handle Kivar and alien threats in a different way, if there are additional episodes or a movie. ___________________________________________________________ |
Citrus.
I don't know if there is something wrong with my computer but I only see a blank where you have enclosed other poster's words in quotes. I remember some of what I said in that quote but not enough to respond to it. Sometimes your quotes come through and other times they don't. It started happening when the new fanforum started. Yes, I agree with your last post. No matter how many justifications posters put forth trying to justify what Isabel and Michael did, I won't be satisfied until they explain why killing is okay for Isabel and Michael but not for Tess. Actually, I need to include Max in that list now that I've been reminded that Max almost killed Leanna. For that matter, it seems it's okay for everyone to lie except for Tess. One of the reasons I don't believe that Tess deliberately killed Alex is because she admitted to every other lie she told. She told Max that she had killed everyone who got in her way when she was trying to save Zan at the military base even though he looked at her like she was a murderer. She didn't try to say it was an accident. She admitted she lied about being linked to Zan even though there were people there who wanted to kill her. Michael, Liz and Max had all initially threatened her. She had to know that taking away the protection of Zan would put her at their mercy. Tess was wrong to mindwarp and lie to others to get them to trust her so she could get off Earth and go back to Antar. But she wasn't the only one who lied in order to protect themselves. All of them lied to the authorities, parents, teachers, friends, stangers or anyone else they felt would cause them harm. No one criticizes them for it even though their lies may have put others in danger. Max continuously lied to Michael to keep him from finding out things that Michael might act on and put them all in danger. Isabel lied when she found out about her possible betrayal of everyone as Vilandra. Liz lied to Alex about why Max needed blood, pretending it was drugs. Liz lied to Tess as you pointed out, Citrus, to get her to stay on Antar and help save the world. Tess was ready to leave. If I were her I would have wished a pox on all their houses and left Roswell forever. But Tess based her decision on what Liz told her. Liz told Tess she wanted to move on and get away from Max but she couldn't do that until Max was willing to move on also. She coached Tess in how to appeal to Max. After Liz got what she wanted, she continued to stay close to Max, going to him with her problems, holding his hand, hugging him, trying to get him to go to Europe with her, getting him to ask her to the Prom. She even allowed Max to kiss her when she knew he was going away with a woman he said he loved, the woman who was carrying his unborn child. That kind of lying seems to be acceptable to fans. The only conclusion I can come to is that fans excused those they liked and condemned those they hated. That is not fair or just. I'm not defending anyone over another. I just think there should be the same rules for everyone. It's not okay for one person to state he's going to kill an innocent man (Denny) just to get at someone else (Kivar). It's not okay to use someone (Alex) to further your own interests (Tess) when you're not sure enough of your own powers to know no harm will come to them. So why is there no outcry against Michael? Why shouldn't Michael be turned over to the Special Unit? If Tess deserves to be turned over then so does Michael. |
I agree with you, Algieba. I, too, think that the same standards of judgment should be applied to all the characters.
I think some fans view Roswell as an Us versus Them show, with Max, Michael, Isabel, Liz, Maria, and Alex being Us and everyone else being Them. I think some fans wanted the show to be Good versus Evil, with our side (Us) being Good versus their side (Them) being Evil. By that standard, everything Team Us does can be justified, because it is the Good Team, while everything the other side does must be construed as Evil. By that standard, Tess and everything she does must be Evil. Interestingly, some of the Good versus Evil proponents hold that Nasedo, Kal, and Kivar are Good, while Tess is the embodiment of all Evil. When Season Two and Three showed the Good Team doing things which some fans considered wrong, then some fans called the writers Evil for writing the characters wrong. I think Roswell is a more complex show than a melodrama in which some characters are totally good and pure and other characters are evil. In Roswell, the way a person was raised factors into the formation of the character. I like that with time and experience, the characters grew and changed. Kyle and Sheriff Valenti began as threats to the podsters in Season One. Sheriff Valenti grew to trust them and help them. Kyle wanted to destroy Max in Season One, after Liz broke up with him. After Max healed Kyle, Kyle still remained distrustful. Kyle's friendship with Tess helped Kyle accept aliens in the next Season. Topolsky began as a great threat to the podsters. She later changed her mind and wanted the podsters' help to escape the Special Unit. Pierce was willing to kill innocent civilians in his quest to get aliens. However, if the podsters had been threats to humans, Pierce's stategy might have been considered by some humans to be acceptable. Even the conniving Maris Wheeler was shown to have more to her than "pure evil". She loved her husband, and went to the extreme of murdering Monk in an attempt to improve her husband's life. I don't think Tess was evil, and I don't think the writers portrayed Tess as evil. I have no need to point out the mistakes Michael made, because all the characters, including Liz, made similar mistakes. _________________________________________________________________ |
After
listening to the commentary on the DVDs I am thoroughly convinced that
the writers/producers had no clue or real appreciation for what they
created.
Remembering when Qfanny |
Quote:
I haven't listen to all the commentary on the dvds yet, but two days ago I watched the "behind the scenes" special feature, and, although most of it is clearly made up of material filmed while the first season was still on air, with the exception of Colin Hanks, a couple people from the production team and William Sadler. The fact is, when it comes to the writers and producers its strange that understanding what made click roswell into people, they completely lost touch with that. It's at least bizarre. I'll probably post more on this when I listen to the commentaries. I've only begun listening to the commentary on "blood brother" and was surprised by the narrative being like an "open mic" while the director of the episode watchs the episode, it has mistakes and everything :lol: !! |
Quote:
Hi greenglow! Your post expresses my sentiment exactly. I spent a lot of time on the topic of Roswell and the inner meanings behind it. Anway, it's good to be back. Qfanny |
Hey, she's back! Hi, Qfanny! And I know I owe you a leter or fifty... :bawl:
Would you settle for a postcard? :lol: From PA, Reggie! Liz is not an :alien2: |
Hi Reggie :hug:
You don't owe me anything at all. I'm back online for a while. The computer doctor has been to my house and my psuedonym is feeling much better. Yes Liz is not an alien, but I thought it was time to drop that line. I think everyone that needed to hear it already has. Qfanny |
Are the DVD comments totally new? Or are they from the old Silverhandprint site? Or other old interviews, like the Katims interview with The WB?
|
hi shapeshifter - gosh, it feels like old times -
The commentary is new except from some clips previously released. It wasn't bad, but I found it very repeative. The interview with Laura Burns and Melinda Metz was my favorite. Shiri and Majandra wasn't bad either, but it was repeative info for the die hards. I am sure someone that had never followed the show would have bust a seam on how BF peed his pants, which they talked about. They also seemed to dig EdR. It was disappointing for me because I wanted more theory and myth, and there wasn't any of that. It seems so obvious to me that it was all a fluke. |
Hi everyone! Thanks so much, shapeshifter for your link to Jason Katims interview with theWB! I really enjoyed reading it!
I think any good story, like any good painting, leaves interpretation to the viewer. While the writers could explain what was in their minds at the time they wrote the story, the meaning of the story depends on what is meaningful to each individual. I�ve enjoyed reading fans� ideas on theories and myths. Some ideas have Liz being Max�s wife on Antar, instead of Tess. I can never figure out how that could be, but I�ve enjoyed considering the possibility. And what would it say to viewers, if it turned out that Liz and not Tess had been married to Max on Antar? Wouldn�t that kind of say that Liz was wrong to leave Max? And wouldn�t the love that Max and Liz have for each other be somewhat less unique, if they were from the same planet and had been married before? I think Roswell tells the audience in the first episode that Max and Liz are different. And in Leaving Normal, Liz says near the end, �The tough thing about following your heart is what people forget to mention, that sometimes your heart takes you to places you shouldn't be, places that are as scary as they are exciting and as dangerous as they are alluring, and sometimes your heart takes you to places that can never lead to a happy ending.� I think the ongoing question in Roswell is whether things can lead to a happy ending. I think the end of Graduation found the surviving characters happy. I think future episodes or a movie would explore that question again. :) Roswell leaves things open to speculation. As Nemo pointed out earlier, the audience hasn�t yet learned about the people who had the pentagon devices at the end of Destiny. Perhaps, the people with the pentagon devices might figure into stories in the future. :) ______________________________________________ screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries ______________________________________________ |
Shapeshifter :hug: hey been a while!! How you doing?
Quote:
That's a creepy thought... future eps/movie picking up where graduation left... better not to think about it or I'll have nightmares!! :goof: Quote:
Huh?! They are supposed to be those that in season 2 were known as "the skins"! The pentagon-shaped explosive device that Tess supposely puts in Last Cruces when she is working under the so-called pact links with that scene. [Ok, by now you'll probably know why I use supposely and so-called when I speak of this particular plot (what plot?) ] |
I
just now got to the commentaries by Thania St. John and David Nutter. I
got a lot more out of their comments than anything anyone else said.
The Balance had some comfusing things in it for me but Thania explained it all so well. I liked her comparison of things waking up in the aliens with things that normal teenagers go through. I really missed the music though. When David Nutter talked about how he liked to have the music playing throughout, I realized I am the same way. The music was part of what Roswell was. It heightened the sadness, the joy, the confusion, every emotion they were going through. The song that played at the end of Leaving Normal cannot be replaced. That, "...It's so cold here without you..." as Max holds Liz in his arms is perfect. I've discovered about myself that I don't relate well to shows that have no music to reinforce the mood. Even just the tension building background music like when Max was telling Liz he was an alien in Pilot are for me an indispensable part of the show. The way everything is really quiet and then Liz starts to lift her shirt to show Max the handprint gives me that tingly feeling that something very tense is about to happen. Then the music starts up ever so quietly and pulls you into the scene. And then the lighting, the shadows, how they enhanced that feeling of otherwordliness was the perfect backdrop for what was being said. The title of this thread, "Trying to figure out what happened!" might be referring to more scientific thoughts but I'm figuring more out about the artistic aspects of the show that make me like it so much. |
The music in Roswell is exceptional to me, too, Algieba!
I'm constantly amazed by the choices and placements of the music in the
scenes! :) The lighting, the scene choices, the dialog, the plot, the
actors, the editing--everything makes Roswell so fascinating and
compelling to me! :)
``````````````````````` greenglow, there was an alien device guarding the translation printout and the crystal. But the device wasn't a pentagon-shaped device. The alien device in the house outside Las Cruces was pyramid-shaped and red. The pentagon-devices were black, five sided, and had alien symbols on them. ``````````````` The Skins didn't have the pentagon-shaped devices. They didn't find the podsters from the orb signal. Whitaker found out where Max was from the real Pierce, who she had been involved with. Whitaker didn't tell the other Skins that she had found Max, and then later Tess. Whitaker wanted the Granilith for herself exclusively. She wanted to return to Antar, because she was tired of living in a husk. Whitaker didn't have a pentagon-shaped device to use against Tess or Isabel. The other Skins didn't know where the podsters were, until the podsters showed up in Copper Summit for Whitaker's funeral. GREER: It appears our long search for the Royal Four has finally ended. How convenient of you to deliver yourselves to us. The Skins from Copper Summit also didn't have the pentagon-shaped devices, which could render the podsters powerless. The Skins weren't the people with the pentagon devices. They didn't have them. When they looked for the podsters in Roswell, they didn't have the devices then either. If they had had the devices, they could have kept Tess from using her powers against them. Tess wouldn't have been able to hide the group from Nicholas and Ida, if the Skins had had the devices. And Tess wouldn't have been able to destroy the many Skins at the high school as she did, if the Skins had possessed the pentagon devices, which rendered the podsters powerless. Brody is the only person known to have one of the pentagon-shaped devices. Brody bought the device from a dealer in supposed alien artifacts. The audience doesn't know who the other people are who have the other pentagon-shaped devices that sounded around the globe, when the podsters set off the orbs. _______________________________________________________ screencaps from Momo's Roswell and Roswell Screen Grab Galleries _______________________________________________________ |
I
always figured that those pentagon things were held by various races'
ambasadors, like Brady; and that they were used to protect each
ambasador from the influence of other aliens or ambasadors. Hence, the Power-blocking property. Other functions might be as a comunicator, tracking device, or ???
C&V - I'm also not seeing some of your quotes. Some are orange; perhaps the others are black? Black on black would be invisible. I'm enjoying the discusions of killing and redemption. I'll think more about it. No need to re-plug my own fanfic, where they were all going to kill her if she was guilty; and if not, not? :) Meanwhile, here's a thought: Perhaps Isabel, as a "full-blood" Royal, already has the Seal? No one has checked, or said one way or the other. Michael wasn't Royal; perhaps he only got a Seal because he was to be Queen Isabel's Prince Consort when Max died? Once Isabel was no longer Queen, Michael wasn't Prince, so he lost his insignia. And I'm still insisting that the Podsters, as clones of humans, are biologicaly all human. It's the alien "essences", or souls, that make the difference. That's why they weren't decanted until they were 5 years old, or so: Their brains had to develop past Piaget's "5-7 shift" so that their recycled souls could implant sucessfully. |
Hey, Reggie! Algieba
said the same thing about some of my quotes not showing up for her
either. I've changed some of the quotes, so hopefully they can be read
now.
________________________________________________ Although the podsters look human, they are not. Their blood cells and their cheek cells are definitely not human. So the podsters aren�ft human clones. The podsters also have powers, which no humans have. And the podsters, unlike humans, were unaffected by the green crystal that Nicholas and the other Skins used to clear Roswell, so they could locate the podsters. The podsters aren�ft human. Only the true Ruler of Antar has the Seal. Currently, that is Max. The only way the Seal can pass to another person, is for the person with the Seal to die, or for the Seal to be taken from the person with the Seal. Max died. As he died, he passed into Clayton Wheeler�fs body. Clayton�fs body was human and couldn�ft carry the Seal. Only a person with Antarian blood could carry the Seal. Isabel lay unconscious and near death shortly after Max�fs death, so the Seal may have bypassed Isabel, since she was dying. Michael got the Seal, after Max died. After Max�fs new body grew Antarian cells, Max was able to take back the Seal from Michael. ```````````````` I think your idea Reggie of the pentagon devices being useful to keep aliens from using their powers against each other is a valid point. Algieba has often said that there should be a way for the podsters to protect themselves from mindwarps. Your suggestion about the pentagon devices sounds like they would work for that purpose. :) Although the summit members could have used the pentagon devices to keep themselves safe from the powers of other aliens, there were only four aliens at the Summit who could have had the device. Nicholas, who was at the Summit, didn�ft have a pentagon device, or he would have used it in Roswell to keep Tess from using her powers. If Nicholas had possessed a pentagon device, he would have seen the door to the bathroom, and he would have found the podsters then. Also, when Brody used the device to keep Tess and Max from using their powers, they were noticeably affected. So it seems unlikely that any of the Summit members used the device at the Summit. The guy who said, �gIt has begun�h at the end of Destiny is still unknown. He wasn�ft one of the Summit members. And the devices went off in many places around Earth. So there are more people with tri-lithium amplification generators (the pentagon devices) still unaccounted for. ______________________________________________ |
Quote:
Right, we only saw four Ambasadors, at the "Summit"; and we only saw that one of them (Brody) had a TAG. Nikolas is not an Ambasador! He is not a human, possessed by an alien; he's here in person, and he's a military commander, not a State Department guy. It's possible, even likely, that there are other Ambasadors, from other worlds and governments than just "The Five Planets". They just weren't needed (or wanted?) at Nikolas' meeting. They all might have been aware that Kivar was chasing the Royal 4 here on Earth, and been simply interested spectators. So it makes sense that the TAGs are effectively the badge of office of an Ambasador, that Nikolas isn't an Ambasador, and that there are other Ambasadors than just the ones from The Five Planets. Although the podsters look human, they are not. Their blood cells and their cheek cells are definitely not human. So the podsters aren't human clones. Umm. The podsters' abilities are supposed to be human, albeit advanced. In either case, I'd argue that they are mental powers, coming from the mind rather than the body. Since the podsters (and skins) have alien minds, they would reasonably have alien mental powers, even if they had human bodies. The Max cells we actually saw are plant cells; you can tell by the thick cell walls (stained green). This is where the cellulose is, which gives plants their stiffness. The aliens may be stupid, but I wouldn't call them vegetables. :lol: This cell thing is one of the earlier CHADs, and was a first clue that the sci-fi of Roswell would be less science, and more fiction. As for the blood, we only heard from Pierce that it was "different"; so it could have been odd hormone levels, different proportions of cells, etc. Since the Podsters were particularly healthy, they might have had abnormally high white blood cell and/or T-cell levels. I don't think this was properly thought through either. As for the "Greenis", good grief! That was clearly impossible. It's the kind of deus-ex-machina that good writers, particularly science fiction writers, avoid. For sci-fi to work, you must be able to "suspend disbelief". But the time zone thing is just hogwash - completely unbelievable. :rolleyes: And for the whole ClayMax fiasco, I heartily believe that this was made up of "whole cloth", with no thought for how, why, or what the implications were. Remember, Roswell was probably already cancelled at that point. I've been sticking up for Tess, too! I firmly believe she was Mwed at the end of MitC; and that Nikolas, not Tess, was responsible for what happened to Alex. As has been so ably pointed out in the past few pages, Tess didn't have the strength to MW him for months at a time. |
Shapeshifter,
you're moving? Where to? I've been out near you; and thought of you. I
had a load of toys for K*B Toys in Plainfield, Joliet, Downers Grove,
and Bloomingdale; and bottled water for Berkeley; and pickups in
Harvard and South Holland. If I knew which direction you were in, I'd
wave! :wave:
|
I love the science fiction of Roswell! It is intelligent and imaginative!
The idea of science fiction is that things that are not yet known or understood are considered. For example, we understand progressively more about the human brain, but there are many things we don't know. So there are stories in science fiction that consider human brain potential. The podsters weren't human. They looked human, but they weren't. They had been created on another planet, so they could pass for humans, while on Earth. It's true that the cells shown for Max's cheek cells and blood cells resemble Earth plant cells. That emphasizes the alien nature of the podsters on a cellular level. How the aliens' cells actually functioned is unknown. Using our imagination, we can consider reasons for the differences between human cells and the podsters' cells. Since the podsters were from another planet, it would be likely that their composition would be different and would function differently from the composition of humans. (Only if humans and aliens were closely related would we expect human cells and alien cells to be very similar.) Nasedo pretended to Michael that Michael's powers were human powers. Nasedo said that Michael's powers were powers that humans would have thousands of years from now. But the audience knows that Nasedo is a liar. So there is no reason for the audience to believe that Nasedo time-traveled thousands of years in advance to learn what humans of the future were like. Michael's human donation composition was from the past, not from a human donor thousands of years in the future. Michael looked like Grandpa Dupree. Michael had the power to repel people, using only his body and mind. That's not a power any human has. It's an alien power, like Nasedo had. Humans cannot change their fingerprints by concentration alone. The aliens could. Michael was alien, with some human contribution being part of him as well. All of the podsters were aliens, with some human contribution to their make-up. They had all lived on another planet before they died, were recreated, and were sent to Earth. The idea of Max entering Clayton Wheeler's body isn't a new concept. Other writers have also written stories of a body being inhabited by two individuals at once. Sometimes the stories are about the fight for control over the body. In the case of Clayton, Max was unable to take over full control of Clayton's body, until after Clayton died, and Clayton's spirit left the body. Liz also kissed Max to restore him to life--an idea that exists in the fairy tale Sleeping Beauty in reverse, in which the prince kisses Sleeping Beauty to restore her to life. Stories build on many ideas. Some ideas are old, and some ideas are new. Science fiction has postulated impossible things long before there was even the term science fiction. Although we have no way of creating time shifts, like the shift in the episode Wipe Out!, scientists have long considered the ideas of parallel universes, time travel, and many other concepts that are unproven. Such concepts are useful for looking at things in a new light. And some unproven concepts are eventually proven. Roswell captured the hearts of many fans. Some fans wanted Roswell to be as real as possible. However, if Roswell relied on only proven things for its content, then Roswell couldn't be about aliens landing in Roswell in 1947. There is no proof of extraterrestrial life on Earth, as far as any of us are aware. ```````````` I think Tess was responsible for Alex's death. Tess acknowledged her responsibility in Alex's death. Although someone could have mindwarped Tess, there is nothing convincing for us to believe that she was mindwarped. Nicholas proved to be no match for Tess' powers, so it's unlikely that Nicholas mindwarped Tess into thinking that she was responsible for Alex's death. In addition, the audience is shown that Kyle saw Alex die, as Tess mindwarped Alex. So again, Tess was shown to be responsible for Alex's death. Mindwarps couldn't make people do things. So even if Nicholas had mindwarped Tess, he couldn't make Tess mindwarp Alex. Tess' body wasn't taken over by an alien. So no one was controlling Tess' actions. Tess didn't want Alex to die. She didn't know that he could die from her mindwarps. Tess had the power to kill people, so she could have killed Alex, if she had wanted to do so. Tess likely asked Alex to translate the book secretly as a surprise for Isabel. It's also possible that Tess mindwarped Alex into thinking that Isabel asked him to translate the book for the podsters secretly. In any case, Tess didn't want Alex to die. That's why she continued to mindwarp him, instead of killing him. ___________________________________ |
Quote:
Thanks Citrus, for clearing that up. I didn't recall the pyramid, I was conviced it was a pentagon... perhaps because it would make more sense? ;) But you are 100% right... we don't know who are the people with the pentagon devices!! I always assume it would be the skins because of the mom-o-gram talking about enemies and than when s2 begins, the enemies are the skins. But I see that was really just an assumption!! From what was shown in the series, we don't know!! Actually, your theory of the devices maybe linked with something for the aliens that use people like avatars to use when they are "operating" their avatars it's good. When we think it's difficult to find out more CHADS, they just keep on coming, huh? :lol: |
*cough* Difficult?!? *cough*
I don't think we really looked at the first season, but we'd counted over 650 by the end. We were just waiting for #666. :eek: "Difficult" is not the word I'd have used... |
Each
new episode of Roswell brought new revelations. In some cases, the
audience knows more than some of the characters know. In other cases,
the audience learns things as the characters learn them.
For example, the audience learned that Nasedo killed Hank and disposed of his body. The other characters remain unaware that Hank was killed and buried. The audience doesn't learn for certain why Nasedo apparently changed his attitude towards Max, until the third season, when it's revealed that the shapeshifters must obey direct instructions from Max. So, the audience waited for over a year to discover the real reason for Nasedo's apparent shift in attitude. If there are more episodes or a movie, the other owners of the pentagon devices might figure into the storyline. Brody is the only owner we know so far. Roswell is great at unfolding mysteries! :) ________________________________________________________ |
Yippee, all these new ideas to talk about.
I have always thought there were more aliens lurking around even after the Skins were wiped out. The discussion about the trilithium devices is something I haven't heard before but it definitely shows there is evidence that other aliens, the ones with the alien devices, are still around. The ending of season one with all those signals going off was exciting and ripe with all kinds of possibilities. I had thought that the plot implied that the Skins were the only enemies that Nasedo warned could be alerted if they set off the orbs but now I see that's not so. There could be others who are enemies or they could be friends. Who's to say the podsters are the only ones who left Antar when Kivar took over? The world could be full of refugees hiding out from Kivar. The only reason the podsters had to have human bodies was because they were dead. It's possible that other Antarians look similar enough to humans to hide out on Earth. I thought the podsters were a mixture of human and alien DNA as explained by Larek/Brody in How The Other Half Lives. That's why they needed the Gandarium, to bridge the gap between the two species. I also think something happened to Tess at the end of MITC. She was up against Lonnie, Rath and possibly Nicholas and away from Max long enough to be attacked by them. She told Max they tried to get into her head but she fought back. I think she could have been mindwarped by them. They didn't have to make her do anything. They could have made her think that if she didn't do as they wanted her to, something terrible would happen. She stated that she had memories of Antar that were even stronger and more real than her life on Earth. Maybe she has family still living there and she was tricked into thinking they were in danger. There are many thoughts Lonnie and Rath could have put into her mind. Alex was tricked into decoding the book. He believed that he was having a romance with Leanna in Sweden. When the mindwarp started to slip, he started having moments of confusion...Leanna is not Leanna...before he actually regained his full memory, so Tess may not have been released from the mindwarp at the time of Departure. She seemed confused, one minute asking Max if he was sure he wanted to go, the next minute she's this traitor again. .Tess never seemed to take up for herself very much. Once she realized what she had done, I don't think she would have thought any of the others would believe her about anything. Just as a curiosity, what if Max's statement in Graduation, "I am not a king" was all that needed to be said to abdicate as king? I know on Earth there has to be some formal statement made, some procedure that must be followed, but we don't know what the rules are for Antar. Max clearly does not want to go back to Antar. He wants to stay on Earth with Liz. That is clearly his intent, his wish, his desire. At what point does this desire become reality? If Max never goes back to Antar to assume the throne, surely there must be some process, some time limit or method for the royal house to continue. There could be cousins or other heirs tired of waiting for the return of the king. The people are tired of waiting for the return of the king. They hate Kivar. They want their "golden age" back. If Max chooses to stay on Earth, there will never be a continuation of the royal line unless at some point someone else automatically receives the calling. Does that mean Max loses the powers that are special only to him, the green protective force field and healing? It hardly seems fair for him to keep his powers that were meant to serve the people of Antar when he has no intention of serving the people of Antar. |
Since
the episodes of Roswell concluded in spring of 2002, we can only
speculate on what future episodes or a movie might be about. If Roswell
stays as it is now, then each of us can imagine things the way we wish.
Although Max said he was not a king, nothing materially changed with his statement. The Seal didn't pass on to Isabel or Michael following his statement. So Max's statement didn�ft change the fact that Max remained King of Antar, as verified by the emissary. Max proved his continued leadership, even after the group agreed to separate. Max stepped up to the podium, darkened the lights, and kept talking, so Liz and Isabel could safely leave. (Kyle and Maria joined them as well.) Throughout Roswell, the episodes showed that no one person could do everything. The strength of the group was with its members working together. The last the audience knows, Liz, Max, Isabel, and Michael are marked individuals. By leaving Roswell, they have lessened the odds of the military or former Special Unit agents finding them for a while. They have also lessened the odds of Kivar finding them. However, the group probably cannot live their lives on the run indefinitely. At some point Max must remember that there are crucial decisions left for him to make. Kivar is still out there. Isabel, Michael, Kyle, Maria, Liz, and Max might live out their lives in relative safety, if they continue to stay hidden. But sometime in the future, Kivar will likely send more forces to Earth to overtake Earth again. As long as Max loves his son, he will have to concern himself about Zan's future, as well as the futures of any other children that any in the group many have. Earth might not be overtaken 14 years into the future, as it was in the previous timeline. But unless Max and the others take action to control Kivar, Earth will probably be doomed to extraterrestrials again. Kal knows about Kivar, so Kal would be a logical person for Max to talk to more. Max could ask Kal about the origins of the pentagon device that Brody has. Kal knows all about the military. He knew exactly where his ship was stored at the Air Force Research Center, even though the General told Kal nothing about its location. Kal is a shapeshifter. He could keep Max informed about Tess�f spaceship. Max, Michael, Isabel, Liz, and Kal have powers. They could probably fix anything that might be wrong with Kal�fs ship or Tess�f ship. Michael has the device from Tess�f ship. Kal could probably tell them what it is. It's possible that Kal might choose to disappear. He already proved that he didn't want to help Max. It's also possible that Kivar could get to Kal. Traveling together gives the group the opportunity to meet new people and learn new things, in addition to helping people. Perhaps one day the group will meet the other people with the pentagon devices. :) |
I
know I am just speculating on the future of the royals but I think my
speculation is based on something that occurred in season three. I took
the quote, "I am not a king," from the script of Graduation. They are
all standing outside talking about what they are going to do now that
they believe, per Liz's visions, that Max, Michael, Isabel and Liz may
be killed.
In response to Max being asked what the plan will be, he says, "I won't make this decision for everyone. I'm givin' up the throne. (He rises, addressing Michael and Isabel.) I'm not a king. And you're not my second in command. And you're not a princess. We're just fighting for our lives." That is more than just an off the cuff statement. He announces he is giving up the throne, that he is not a king, and he does it in the presence of seven witnesses, Liz, Michael, Maria, Isabel, Jesse, Jim and Kyle. He also essentially fires his second in command. Michael cannot very well continue to be second in command to someone who is no longer in command. He also tells Isabel she is not a princess. Whether or not he has the right to do that I don't know but he thinks he does. Everyone talks about Max being a leader but when he does something as a leader, his authority to issue orders is questioned. I don't know if he has the authority to depose Isabel as princess but he seems to think he does. He didn't ask her if she wanted to step down. He told her she was no longer a princess. The seal of Antar took a while to pop up on Michael when Max died. When it did appear, it was not in a place that others could observe. The seal was not able to be observed by others. The emissary is the only one who was able to activate it so that it appeared visibly, therefore, not seeing the seal move to one of the others does not prove that it is still with Max. I do not think it is possible that Isabel had the seal. If she did, that would mean she had equal power to rule with Max and would have been needed at the summit. I do believe, though, that Isabel, Michael, and Tess were royals in their own right. Nasedo referred to them as the royal four, not the royal two with their consorts. There could be other families in control of regions on Antar that ruled through royal succession and represented other countries or areas of Antar. Just as royalty has married royalty from other countries here on Earth to strengthen their rule, perhaps Michael and Isabel's betrothal and Max and Tess' marriage had something to do with forming alliances on Antar. It is also possible the reason Vilandra was tricked by Khivar was because she was not in love with Rath just as Isabel was not in love with Michael. She may have been rebelling against the man that everyone but her wanted her to marry. Because of that she may not have seen Khivar for what he really was. I think a lot of fanfics have been written with this theme. On another matter, I think calling the pentagon shaped devices, tri-lithium amplification generators is good science for a science fiction show. Lithium carbonate is a white, powdery salt, used in treating manic-depressive disorders. It has a strong effect on the brain but can have serious side effects. I knew someone who was on it for his manic-depression. He had to be monitored frequently by his doctor. When Max was in the White Room, Pierce told him that they had injected him with something that interferred with the neuro transmitters in his brain, that they had figured out that's where their powers came from. So, it makes sense that the devices amplified the effect of the tri-lithium in interferring with their powers. |
Although
at first I thought that Antar and the other four planets should get
their act together on their own without the help of the podsters, I
came to realize that sometimes people need help.
In the U.S., kings are considered obsolete. But Antar and the other planets represented a different way of life. The position of King of Antar wasn't merely a royal title. The King also carried the Seal and he had the ability to bring people back to life from death or near death. If Max truly rejected being King, and if the Seal left him because of that, then he would no longer have the powers that went along with the Seal. [Back at the auto shop, Max tries to heal Kyle's cut as Isabel, Liz, and Maria look on.] MAX: It's not working. I can't heal it. LIZ: What about your other powers? [Max creates a force shield, but it is weak.] MAX: I'm losing the ones that are unique to me. When Max lost the Seal, he was content to no longer have the concerns of being king. Even though he didn't know he had lost the Seal when he died, he said: MAX: But, it [dying] changed me... I'm not interested in dragging around these responsibilities any more... or arguing with Michael about how we do things... or keeping on this impossible quest to find my son... I need to live in the now. To appreciate all these things I've been taking for granted... like - like going to school... or smearing you in Putt Putt... So for Max, not being King might be easier for Max. He would have fewer concerns. He would be free to enjoy life. Being King on Antar had gotten Max/Zan and his loved ones murdered in their previous lives. Larek, Max/Zan's close friend from his life as King on Antar, told Max that he had tried to do too much too fast for his people. Kal called Max selfish and ungrateful. So Max heard criticism of him as King. Anyone in the public eye will be criticized by some people. Being king or being a public figure can be difficult. On Earth, in the United States, we don't have kings. For Max to reject the title of King, while he is on Earth, meant that Max wouldn't tell the others what to do. MAX: I won't make this decision for everyone. I'm giving up the throne. (He rises, addressing Michael and Isabel.) I'm not a king. And you're not my second in command. And you're not a princess. We're just fighting for our lives. I think Max was simply saying that he wasn't going to make the decision for everyone. But if Max's statement was a renunciation of being king that actually results in some loss in his powers, like healing people near death, or bringing people back to life, then everyone will probably accept the change in Max's abilities. On the plus side, Max would probably be able to enjoy his life on Earth more, if he never remembers being King on Antar, and if he never has to concern himself with Antar and the other four planets' problems. I really think that Max still has the Seal. I think that Max remains King of Antar, even though he told the group that he was giving up the throne, that he wasn't a king, that Michael wasn't his second-in-command, and that Isabel wasn't a princess. Based on what we know so far, I think that for the Seal to leave Max, Max must die or someone must physically take the Seal from Max. When Max took the Seal back from Michael, Michael was left in great pain. The Seal was physically removed from Michael's body. I think the Seal is so tightly connected to Max's brain, that only death can separate the Royal Seal of Antar from Max. I think it's a built-in protection that the true lineal king can take the Royal Seal from someone who isn't the true lineal king. I think that no person can take the Seal from the King. I think only the death of the King allows the Seal to leave the King. Some things cannot be ignored or forgotten. Max is who he is, even if he rejects the title of king. And Max will still be from another planet, even if he loses his special powers. In Roswell, aliens have the ability to come to Earth. Kivar has a new transport. If there are more episodes or a movie, aliens likely will be a problem for the group again. Although Liz hasn't told Max about Future Max's visit to her (as far as the audience knows), Liz is aware that Earth fell to enemies 14 years into the future in the previous timeline. Liz's ability to foresee death was inadequete in preventing Earth's overthrow. At some point, if Roswell continues, I think the group would again encounter alien threats. If so, it might prove useful in this timeline for Max to be King. I agree with you, Algieba, that each of the Royal Four was royal in his and her own right. I think Max and Isabel were the direct, lineal Royals of Antar. I think each of Royal Four is important, because of who they were in the past, and who they are in the present. :) I think the humans are equally important, as Roswell is about humans as well. :) _________________________________________________________ |
Hi, Citrus. I'm enjoying reading your comments. I love to try to puzzle this through and your thoughts are very helpful.
Unfortunately I still cannot see your quotes. Instead of lines with the quote inside of them, there is now just a blank space. I have never learned how to do quotes so I don't know the process but I can see other fan's quotes so I know something is still wrong. I was reading an article about the movie, Spiderman and thought how much it applied to Roswell. The writer quotes a line from the original comic book by Stan Lee. "With great power there must also come--great responsibility." The writer compares this theme of personal sacrifice, power and responsibility to many stories that are trying to express a great truth. It makes me think of Roswell because I see it as a struggle for a person wanting a normal, happy life but also wanting to do right by those who are depending on him. Roswell really wasn't long enough to explore what Max would have eventually done and what he would have chosen in his life. None of the royal four really had the help they needed to follow their destiny. Too many characters who should have been there for them let them down. I don't see how they could have made any other choice at the end in Graduation except to do what they did, run for their lives. I can understand Max's wish to be out from under a responsibility he saw no way to fulfill but I question that Antar can wait around for forever for a leader to save them from Kivar. That is why I think the powers that belong to Max as king, are meant for the good of Antar, not just Max's own self-protection. I believe Max, Isabel and Michael would be much happier living out their lives as normal human beings on Earth. The thing is, they are not normal human beings. If they lose their powers, they have less protection against anyone who discovers their alien nature. So, losing some of their powers could keep them from the happy life they want. Somewhere along the way they will have to fight for their freedom, either on Antar or on Earth. I'm not sure where the seal is. But someone needs to be king if being king means the end of war and suffering on Antar. |
Are you able to read the three transcript excepts in the color blue on my previous post, Algieba?
There are no quotes in my previous post. If you can't see the three
transcript excerpts in blue, then perhaps it is all colors that are the
problem in my posts. If that is the problem, then I can change it.
Kivar was able to kill Max/Zan, Tess/Ava, Michael/Rath, and Isabel/Vilandra. So, even though the King was very important on Antar, as well as very important to the other planets, having a King didn't keep Kivar from taking over. Whether or not the citizens of Antar, and the citizens of the worlds of that Kathana, Sero, Hanar, and Larek inhabited would want a King again might be in doubt. The Summit members had wanted Max's help, and Max didn't offer them any solutions for their problems. The delegates were angry. Sometimes people want to wait for a hero or a savior, and sometimes people figure out how to solve their problems on their own. I think Max needs the help of the Antarians and the help of the people of other four planets, as much as they might need or want his help in the future. Max, Michael, Isabel, Liz, Maria, and Kyle may not be able to keep Kivar and other aliens off Earth, without their help. At the 2002 graduation, the three podsters had only been active on Earth for 13 years. Of those years, most of their time was spent as children learning about the world around them. The podsters and Liz and Maria and Kyle need more experience, before they can hope to help save Earth from future alien encroachments. I think that the group has the opportunity of learning more about life, people, and aliens through their travels. Currently, Max is a bit naive about people in authority. He was too sympathetic to Kal, who was able to deceive Max in many things. Future Max was determined in dealing with younger Liz. Experience added to Future Max and Future Liz's abilities to make tough decisions. In this timeline, they know about two spaceships on Earth. They know that aliens can take over the bodies of humans. Liz and Maria know that time travel is possible. Liz knows that Earth was overrun 14 years into the future in the previous timeline. I think Antar and the other four planets may come to terms with handling their problems. Kivar is a bad ruler, who is unable to make peace on his planet or with the other planets. Perhaps it is time for change. Also, with time travel being possible, the length of time that Antar is without a King ceases to be a problem. Even if the Seal of Antar were to go to someone other than Max and Michael, there could be the same problems in leadership that Michael evinced when he got the Seal. Michael lacked the experience to be a good leader. Having the power of the Seal didn't make for sound leadership. So if the Seal went to someone else, Antar might have the same ongoing problems that it has had with Kivar. From what we know so far, the Seal can only be worn by a limited number of people. Only Max and Michael have been able to wear the Seal, following the death of Max/Zan's father. If Max, Michael, and Isabel were to die without children with Antarian blood, then it's possible that there could no longer be any Royal Rulers for Antar. ____________________________________________________ |
Citrus.
All I see on your posts is white print on a black background with black space in between some of the paragraphs. The black space must be where the blue transcript excerpts are. Does anyone else see blue words? I would hate to think this is just on my computer. |
Hi Algieba! Thanks for your reply. I've edited out the colors in my previous posts. Sorry about that. Reggie also reported being unable to see at least one of the colors than had been in my posts.
Hope you have a wonderful day! :sun: |
Great discussion. I liked Algieba's idea that the seal could have left Max when he gave his "abdication speech," (though I also just like the speech itself for its coming-of-age metaphor, that is, leaving behind childish fantasies). Algieba's comment reminds me of all the What if Michael Was The Real King? theories:
Quote:
Quote:
The quote below reminds me that another idea that I think would fit nicely with a Roswell movie would be if Liz had the seal for a time: Quote:
If this thread goes over the allowed number of posts, it might take me a bit longer to post it in the Archives because the print view of the threads no longer shows all posts from all pages of a thread in one file. Plus, life continues to be a bit busy. ;) |
Hi shapeshifter and everyone!
Although Liz was changed when Max healed her, I think Liz is still human. I think that Liz�s alien powers are in addition to who she is. After Liz was healed, her cheek cells looked like normal human cheek cells, unlike Max�s cheek cells. Liz felt that Max had changed her, but I think Liz is identifiably human. Liz was able to connect with Max when he was in New York to warn him, even before Liz experienced problems with her changes. When Liz had problems controlling her powers, Max began healing Liz. He said he could feel the healing working. Liz felt pain though, and she broke the connection, which ended the healing. Liz evidently decided that she didn�t want to be healed of her powers. Or Liz didn�t want to endure the pain of healing. For Liz to get the Seal, Max would have to die, or Max would have to give the Seal to Liz. I don�t think that Liz could receive the Royal Seal of Antar, because she is human and not Antarian. Max lost the Seal when he died and went into Clayton�s human body. Baby Zan was an unsuitable heir, because he was human and couldn�t carry the Seal. Max was able to take back the Seal from Michael, after his new body had grown Antarian cells. So, I doubt that Liz can receive the Royal Seal, unless her body grows Antarian cells. Also, I think Max would have to die, before the Seal would leave him. Liz, like Kivar, could possibly become leader of Antar, even without the Seal. Kivar, though, is a bad leader, who lacks the respect of those he attempts to rule. In my opinion, Liz has some qualities which need improvement for her to be a good leader. Liz sometimes acts without considering the feelings of others. For example, Liz went to find out about the pendant Isabel found at Atherton�s, even though Max didn�t want her to go. Liz also sometimes shuts people out. For example, Max wanted to take a step back in their relationship. Liz accused Max of being controlling. But it was Liz who became controlling when Max stopped by the caf� to talk to her. Max was reaching out to her, but Liz was dismissive of him. Liz shut Max out, after Max included Tess in the group. Liz also shut Max out, when he tried to work things out with her, after she rejected the healing in the desert. When Liz had personal problems, her solution at times was to leave town. In my opinion, Liz needs greater wisdom to be a good leader. Not everyone wants to lead. Some people who want to lead are poor leaders. In my opinion, Liz hasn�t expressed a desire to lead so far. In contrast, Michael wanted to be leader, but he lacked the wisdom and the experience to be a good leader when he received the Seal. Some fans have thought that Liz was Max�s wife on Antar. I don�t think that she was. I think Max loved Tess on Antar, just as Brody/Larek said. I think that Max�s love for Liz has to do with this life on Earth. I think that the human contribution to Max is in part what attracts Max to Liz. Liz didn�t notice Max. Maria noticed that Max was interested in Liz, but Liz rejected the idea, until Max showed Liz how he felt about her. Ava told Liz that she wasn�t sure that Zan ever really loved her back. She said that she always felt like Zan was waiting for someone else to walk into his life. I think Ava�s words tell the audience that it was New-York-Zan�s and Max�s human components which compelled their interest in someone other than Ava or Tess. Or, Ava�s words to Liz could be an indication that both Ava and Tess feel insecure in love. |
shapeshifter-
What an interesting idea if Liz was to receive the seal from Max. Liz
would be an excellent leader because once she puts her mind to
something there's no stopping her. Liz puts others before herself, even
if they are ungrateful and unworthy people.
I loved the idea that Liz was human and Max recognized her at 8 years of age. Liz never had a past life with Max or had to be recreated to be loved by Max. I loved Max and Liz's relationship before they destroyed it with the past life crap and the Royal Bore's story. There were so many possibilities and interesting storylines that could have satisfied legions of fans, but TPTB didn't know a good thing until it was gone. No matter what the ramblings of some are and if they feel that Liz was an evil manipulating bitch, Liz was and always will be my favorite female character. No matter how some want to twist and turn things to support their favorite characters or slice it and dice it, Liz was central to the Roswell story period. After all the drama and crap that was shown to me, in the end Liz was Max's future, real, and true bride, the Queen( I still don't know why she wanted to be, but that's life). I don't think it mattered to Liz one bit about being a Queen when she married Max. Some people act like being a Queen is such a great thing. I've never heard Liz mention one time about being a Queen or fantasizing about being a Queen. Liz fell in love with an alien boy, who happened to be a King of another planet, big deal. Being a Queen is not everything it's cracked up to be especially if your attitude stinks, just look at where it got Tess. |
Quote:
True: we saw what happened when she was in charge of the staff schedule at the Crashdown. Everybody remember the Color Wheel? :D I loved the idea that Liz was human and Max recognized her at 8 years of age. Liz never had a past life with Max or had to be recreated to be loved by Max. ... No matter how some want to twist and turn things to support their favorite characters or slice it and dice it, Liz was central to the Roswell story period. Exactly! The relationship between Liz and Max should have been central to the story. It doesn't matter if he's got some baggage from his past; she loves him, Crown or no. And frankly, I thought it would make it more interesting to have the Podsters be alien royalty, involved in a fight with other aliens. It adds color, and enemies to fight. Conflict: Good Guys vs. Bad Guys - there should be lots of stories to tell, with Liz fighting at Max's side. At least, it saves it from being yet another goopy fish-out-of-water story. :tongue: Bleh. |
Quote:
Hi Reggie, :lol: Yes, I thought that was Liz Parker in her usual planning mode. Quote:
ITA!! If they wanted to go the Destiny route, they could have done it much better than the soap opera crap that was shown to me. I always said that Liz should have stayed by Max's side and helped him instead of running away. They destroyed Max and Liz's relationship which was the true heart and soul of Roswell and couldn't understand why their biggest fanbase was pissed. I understand that with change always comes resistance, but to "cut off your nose to spite your face" was completely ridiculous. |
I
think Roswell would have quickly become boringly predictable, if every
episode was about Liz and Max fighting aliens. I love Roswell as it is!
:)
If Liz and Max were to die on Earth, be recreated, and sent to Antar, I think some fans would expect Liz and Max to be together in their next life, just like they had been together in this life. I think the fact that Max was King of Antar at the time of his death is an essential part of Roswell. I agree with you, Sonia. E that Liz has never shown any interest in being Queen of anything. But Max is from another planet. And Liz is from Earth. There is a basic distinction between them, even though they love each other. Tess wanted Max to be King, because that�s who he had been, when she had been in love with him on Antar. Instead, on Earth, Max fell in love with Liz. To Tess, Max became a faithless lover. Liz fell in love with Max, but she abandoned him, when she learned that Max and Tess had been married to each other in their previous lives, and that Max was including Tess in this life. Liz feared that Max would remember Tess and fall in love with her. In the current timeline, Max fell in love with Tess, after Liz dumped Max. Liz felt that Max was a faithless lover in this timeline, because Future Max told Liz that they had married in the previous timeline. Max hasn�t shown any interest in returning to Antar after Tess left, except when he was trying to help his son. When he failed to get Kal to fly the spaceship, Max gave up the idea of going to Antar. Even though Liz hasn�t expressed a wish to be Queen of Antar, Liz is married to Max, who is the true King of Antar. Michael actively wanted to go to Antar, until he fell in love with Maria. Michael stayed on Earth, when he had a chance to go to Antar, because he loved Maria. I don�t think Roswell is a story about an alien boy falling in love with an Earth girl any longer. Max and Liz are children no longer. They have the responsibilities of knowing that aliens have arrived on Earth. Max, Michael, and Isabel have the additional responsibility of knowing that the people of their home planet are besieged by the tyrant Kivar, who has the ability to come to Earth. Liz has an even greater responsibility, because she knows that in the previous timeline, Earth fell to its enemies 14 years into the future. The audience doesn�t know if Liz has told Max about Future Max�s visit. Would Max be upset with Liz for not telling him about Future Max�s visit and Liz�s decision to help change the timeline? Would Maria tell Max about Future Max? Would Max begin to doubt everything that Liz might tell him? Liz had an interest in finding out who Max was. She took the pendant Isabel found at Atherton�s to find out more about it, even though Max thought that she shouldn�t. Liz helped Max find the hidden orb. Liz wanted to know more about aliens, until she learned that Max and Tess had been married in their previous lives, and that Max planned to include Tess in his life. Then Liz wanted Max to go his way, and she went her way. In the previous timeline, Max won Liz back, but at the cost of excluding Tess from his life. Earth fell as a result. I think the lesson of Roswell is that we must learn from the past to prepare for the future. From the beginning, Roswell has been about science fiction, extraterrestrials, love, and relationships. Roswell is about love and more. ____________________________________________________________ |
Quote:
To you Citrus and Vine and many others Roswell was predictably boring because of the love story between Liz and Max, but not to me. I didn't love Roswell the way it was except in S1 and I'm so glad that it was canceled. I guess a lot of fans felt the same way after they turned Max into an ass and Liz his doormat. I really don't care what excuses some make for Roswell's death, Roswell died and I hope it stays dead because of destroying Max and Liz's relationship. Roswell did become predictably boring and a cheap soap opera with Max having a one night stand with Tess and a teenage pregnancy to boot. Then trying to find his illegitimate son because of his careless irresponsibility. And no I didn't buy that past life crap, so if Max didn't marry Tess on Earth, they were not married period. But, you and a lot of others seem to like that type of story whatever excuses you make. Quote:
Well, that's the only thing we will ever agree on Citrus and Vine. Max definitely was always in love with Liz, married her and made her his Queen. So, Liz is the Queen of something, she's the Queen of Max's heart. Quote:
Why would Max show any interest in returning to Antar after Tess left? He was only going in the first place because Tess trapped him with a pregnancy. Then his son supposedly contacted him when he was on a date with Liz. Even though S3 sucked, it did have some highlights especially Kal Langley. I especially loved when Kal was kicking Max's butt all over the place. Kal was right when he told Max "the more you embrace your alien side, the more you will lose." Yep, Max the selfish ass couldn't understand until Kal had to wake him up, and then he goes home whining and crying to Liz. That was Liz's chance to kick Max to the curb, but he must have mindwarped her again. Quote:
Yes, here we go again, Michael stayed on Earth with Maria because he loved her. But, Maria dumped Michael like yesterday's garbage when she thought she was going to make it big as a singer. Then Maria used Michael for sex and it had nothing to do with love. Are you trying to tell me something with that statement because I never saw Michael/Maria's relationship any greater or better than Max/Liz's? Even the writers couldn't even find a resolution to Michael and Maria's real love in the end. Quote:
Frankly, that's your own opinion and to me Roswell will always be about "an alien boy falling in love with a human girl that he risked his life to save hers," and that's all it will ever be about to me. Max and Liz were never children when they became a couple, they were teenagers growing into adulthood. Max and Liz were and always will be the true heart and soul of Roswell, no matter what some think. I'm neither a child or teenager, and I mean exactly what I say and feel just like I'm sure you do too. Quote:
Earth fell as a result of Tess not knowing what the word "no" meant and that Max didn't want her. No matter what excuses you make for Tess by constantly blaming Liz for Tess's psychotic behavior, Tess was selfish because she couldn't have Max because he loved Liz. Tess left Roswell for her own selfish reasons no matter what sympathetic excuses you and others make for her behavior. Just look what happened when Tess got her claws into Max, she slept with him even though Max was willing and ready, and got pregnant. Tess wasn't even smart enough to keep Max when she had him in the palms of her hands. No, she had to keep mindwarping Alex and then killed him to cover her tracks. Again, whatever excuses you make for Tess's behavior by constantly blaming Liz, it still doesn't change the fact that Tess murdered Alex period. Quote:
From the beginning Roswell was always about "an alien boy who was in love with a human girl, that he risked his life to save hers." Roswell was about aliens also, but it was told from the eyes of a human girl named Liz Parker through her journal entries. If Liz wasn't healed by Max, then there wouldn't have been a Roswell story, and if there was it wouldn't have interested me in the least if that premise was changed. I'm sure Max learned a lot from his past mistakes especially like Michael said in Blood Brothers "never trust a blonde." I bet the next time a past life wife comes to Roswell spouting off "It's our Destinyyyyyy Max," Max would think twice before sleeping with the enemy. But since you have a lot of theories Citrus and Vine, maybe you could send your ideas to TPTB and they can give you more Roswell. You know since, "you love all the seasons of Roswell and all the characters." |
Just to let you know, Citrus, I can now read all of your post. No more blank spots.
My feelings about what Liz did in Destiny might be a little different. I think backing away from Max was the right thing to do. What Liz heard in the pod chamber made her feel that Max had a past life, a past wife and a future that might involve something he was destined to do. I know I'm going to sound like a boring adult here, but when you're only seventeen, making a decison on who you're going to spend the rest of your life with can wait. How many people today acutally meet and marry their soulmate by age 19? And even if some people do find their true love that young, would that love be threatened if they tried to concentrate on other things first, things like college, growing up, fighting off evil aliens? If Max and Liz were really meant to be together, time would not destroy their love. I don't know if Roswell is typical of what comes out of Hollywood for young people because I don't watch most of the shows they put on tv, but I see no reason why Max and Liz or Max and Tess had to make any decisions about a permanent relationship while they were still only in high school. I don't even see why it was so important for Isabel and Jesse to get married so young. If they had all concentrated on the alien menace threatening them instead of the "love" triangle, maybe FMax would never have needed to come back in time. Max could have been friendly and kind to Tess without becoming her boyfriend, lover or husband. Then she wouldn't have left Roswell. Instead Max began pushing Liz to make a decision about the depth of their relationship before she was ready. When FMax tells Liz they cemented their relationship, Liz was very upset. I felt really bad for her when she stood there in EOTW with her voice shaking and tears in her eyes telling FMax she wasn't ready to make that kind of decision. FMax's response was that he wouldn't take no for an answer. Well, he should have. Maybe he was ready but Liz said she was not. I remember reading an interview with Shiri Appleby where she said she felt good about being a role model for young girls, especially because they so often do what others pressure them to do, not what they really want to do. I, unlike many, think she carried that strong resolve over into season three, even to the point of distancing herself from her boyfriend to try to figure out who she was and what she wanted out of life. She was trying to be supportive of Max but when it reached a point where she felt her life was out of control, she made the decision to put herself first and do what she had to do to find out what she really wanted. |
Quote:
I think that was an option open to them. However, Max was deeply in love with Liz. He didn�t want to lose Liz. Although sometimes love can wait, other times love will be lost, if people make other things a priority. Quote:
Max didn�t begin pushing Liz about the depth of their relationship before she was ready. LIZ: I just said no to Gomez. FUTURE MAX: You said no the last time, too. I didn't take no for an answer. LIZ: So we went to the concert. FUTURE MAX: No. The night of Gomez I came to your room. That's the night that things between us were cemented. Algieba, although forcing unwanted attention on someone is a cause for concern, I don�t think such was the case with Max going to Liz with Gomez concert tickets, after she first said no to Gomez in the previous timeline. Liz and Max cemented that evening he came to her in the previous timeline, because that�s what they both wanted. Liz had rejected Max, because he had included Tess in his life. When Max rejected Tess completely, kept Tess out of his life, and only did things with Liz, then Liz was willing to accept Max into her life again. LIZ: Cemented. So when you say cemented, you... FUTURE MAX: We made love. LIZ: No, no, we...we didn't. FUTURE MAX: Liz... LIZ: No, I have no intention of making love to you or...or anyone else at this particular stage of my life. FUTURE MAX: I beg to differ. LIZ: No. Making love to you is the farthest thing from my mind. I...I don't even have protection. FUTURE MAX: I did. LIZ: Oh, that's great. There you are, Max the Saint, just walking around with a condom in his back pocket. I...I...I don't even care what happened in your reality. I am not making love to you or anyone until I am ready, and I am just not ready. FUTURE MAX: Liz, I am telling you what happened, and we have to change that. We have to. And so far, we've failed. Liz, it's not just Max that's the problem here. You are. You are not letting yourself change. Now you have to do something...before it's too late. Liz in the current timeline insisted that she wasn�t ready to make love with Max, but Future Max knew that in the previous timeline, Liz had been ready. Max didn�t force unwanted attention on Liz. Liz wanted to be with Max. She was happy at the fortuneteller�s words that Max chose Liz. And Liz really didn�t want to break up with Max, knowing that Max had chosen her in the previous timeline. That�s why Liz rejected what Future Max was telling her. Liz and Max became inseparable in the previous timeline. Liz wanted to get married at 19. Liz was the person who wanted commitment from Max at 19. LIZ: So, um...did we get married? FUTURE MAX: Liz, you know I can't... LIZ: You...I know, you can't talk about it. I'm sorry. I know. FUTURE MAX: We eloped. We were 19. LIZ: We were 19? Wow, that is so young. That is too young. FUTURE MAX: That's what I said, but you said that Romeo and Juliet were even younger than us, so we drove to Vegas. Got married at the Elvis chapel. Congratulations, kids. |
Gotta disagree with you on the cementing discussion, Citrus.
Just because someone does something, it doesn't mean they were ready for it at the time. Present day Liz was saying she wasn't ready. That meant she had thought about it and made up her mind to wait until the time was right for her. It wasn't about Tess. It wasn't about Max. It was about what Liz had decided was best for her. Where does respect for Liz's choice come in here? I don't see anything different about the first time line as compared to the second time line as to why Liz would have suddenly decided the night of the Gomez concert that she was ready to commit herself to Max that intimately. FMax specifically states the reason they made love was because he wouldn't take no for an answer. I'm going by what was said in the episode. Max doesn't say Liz changed her mind because she had no further doubts with Tess out of the picture. He says "he" wouldn't take no for an answer. That tells us right there that Liz in the first time was still saying no to Max. He came prepared to win her over and he succeeded. Maybe that's Romeo and Julietish for some but the creep factor is just way too high for me with Max crawling in her bedroom window with a condom in his pocket, knowing her parents are somewhere in the house and he's doing everything he can to seduce their daughter right under their own roof. She's saying no. Max starts laying on the charm or the declarations of love or whatever. Is this really romantic? |
The
thing that changed between this timeline, when Liz said she wasn�t
ready to have sex, and the previous timeline when Liz was willing to
have sex with Max, was Future Max�s visit to Liz.
In this timeline, Liz denied to Future Max that she was willing to have sex with Max. But Future Liz and Future Max knew what really happened the night of the Gomez concert. Future Liz and Future Max decided to send Future Max back in time to change Liz�s mind about having sex with Max. They both knew that they both had wanted to have sex together the night of the Gomez concert. Liz had been moving towards a sexual relationship with Max, even before she broke up with Max. If Maria hadn�t interrupted, Max and Liz would likely have had sex in Michael�s apartment. LIZ: Can you take your shirt off? MAX: Can I? Yeah. After Maria interrupted Liz and Max at Michael�s apartment, Maria talked to Liz, as she drove Liz home. MARIA: I'm worried for you. LIZ: Why? MARIA: Because this isn't you. LIZ: Yes, Maria, see...this is. This is me. I'm sitting right next to you. MARIA: I just don't want you to go too far. LIZ: I think I want to. � MARIA: Uh, no. What I'm saying is, how do you know that he's not like using you? LIZ: Maria, because it...it...it feels right. I'm sorry. It feels right in a way that nothing has felt right in my life before. Later, Liz drew a picture of her vision flash that she had while she and Max were making out in Michael�s apartment. Liz wanted to go with Max to the old radio tower, even though Max said he should go there with Michael. At that time, Liz was willing to become intimate with Max. MAX: Are we... LIZ: Come on. Let's go. Max and Liz drove to the old radio tower. They got out of the jeep. LIZ: So we have to decide what our next step's gonna be. MAX: Right. LIZ: I guess we could just start...digging. MAX: Or, uh... LIZ: Or, um...we could look for the next clue. MAX: Yeah. The clue idea seems more, uh... LIZ: More efficient. MAX: Yeah. Right this minute...I can't...not touch you. LIZ: Let's just lie down. (Max unfolds a blanket and spreads it out on the ground) MAX: Are you scared? LIZ: Well, I know I'm supposed to be, but...I'm just gonna put myself in your hands. Liz was ready and willing to go all the way with Max that evening. The coyote howl interrupted them. Then Liz heard the sound from the orb. Max later carried a condom with him, because Liz had been so willing to become intimate with him, before she broke up with him. Max knew that he loved Liz and that Liz loved him. He saw how Liz reacted when Tess healed his face. He heard from Maria how Liz reacted to seeing him walk Tess home after Nasedo was murdered. Max knew that the only way Liz would accept him was if he stayed completely away from Tess, which he did. When Tess was tortured and badly injured by Whitaker, Max didn't go to her. Max didn't heal Tess, as she had healed him. Max didn't carry Tess to the car. Valenti took care of Tess, not Max. Max treated Tess badly, because he wanted to win Liz back. Earth fell in the previous timeline. Future Liz and Future Max knew that Tess� help was vital for Earth to survive. Future Liz and Future Max also knew that Max wouldn�t work with Tess, because he loved Liz and he knew that Liz wouldn�t accept him as long as he had anything at all to do with Tess. Tess and Max had been married in their previous lives and Liz feared that Max would love Tess. _____________________________________________________ |
Quote:
Son, you've been on the road too long. :D :P |
Sexual
Healing was really a puzzle to me because it gave the impression that
Liz and Max had cemented their relationship that night. Liz was all for
it under the guise that they needed to find out about Max's past
through the flashes she was getting.
True, the noises interrupted them but after they had found the orb, they apparently went to sleep. Nasedo found them the next morning and sent them on their way. They have this uh oh scene with the parents since they had obviously been out all night together. I can't imagine anyone staying out all night and risking incurring the wrath of their parents just to sleep in the desert but I guess that's what we're suppose to believe. In season two when Liz tells Maria about FMax, she tells Maria that she is still a virgin and they high-five each other like it's a good thing. My interpretation of that is that although Liz and Max went to the desert for the express purpose of making love, they did not do so. We are not told why or if or if not. It's left open to our own interpretation but since we find out later that Liz is still a virgin, we know the truth. Why did Liz change her mind? Because a coyote howled? Because the only reason she was willing to do it was to get the flashes? I don't know but we aren't told anything in the show until the night that Liz tells FMax that she wouldn't have given in to him because she had decided not to have sex yet. Also it seems kind of preposterous that they would have just gone to sleep if Liz still wanted to carry out her plan. They were happy. They'd found the orb. Mission accomplished. So why not do what they came out there to do if that's really what Liz wanted to do? Something changed Liz's mind. She didn't do anything with Max other than sleep. Once Tess came along in Crazy, things started to change between Max and Liz. I would think that Liz felt relieved that she didn't commit herself to a boy who might not be around for long. When FMax came to Liz, Tess had not left town yet. So why would Liz give in to Max on the night of Gomez as though Tess was no longer a threat. Surely she wasn't basing her decision on what a fortune teller told her. That might have been an interesting diversion, but Liz has a scientific mind. I can't see her making such a big decision based on very unscientific advice. I still think that Liz had made up her mind to wait because she felt she wasn't ready to trust Max and also because she did say she didn't intend to have sex with him or anyone else at that particular stage of her life. She had thought it out and made a decision. That she was willing to make that change in her life at one point doesn't mean she couldn't have changed her mind, especially when she had no assurance that Max wouldn't change his mind also and leave her for Tess someday. What caused her to do it anyway in the first time line was not that Tess was gone. Tess was still living with Kyle and Jim. She talked about leaving to Kyle but she was still in Roswell the night of Gomez. Tess was part of the group, working with them, walking home with Max from the park, using her powers to heal Max. As far as Liz knew, Tess was going to be around and accepted by the group permanently, especially when Isabel said in Surprise that she wasn't very proud of the way they had all treated Tess and then risked her life to save her. What caused Liz to give in to Max was his pressure on her as he said. He wanted to advance their relationship. She did not at that time. I thought at the time that the show was one of the few for teenagers that I had seen that actually had a strong, female lead who could make a decision on what was best for her and stick to it. I have a different viewpoint as a teacher, probably, because I see teenagers making a lot of bad decisions because they're afraid to stand up to their peers. Liz was a good role model. Max wasn't. He was so afraid he was going to lose Liz that he wouldn't take no for an answer. Those were his words, not mine. |
Liz and Max and Isabel and Maria and Michael were gone from home all night in the fifth episode of the first Season, 285 South. So being gone from home all night wasn�t out of the ordinary for Liz and Max anymore.
Liz and Max changed their minds about going all the way in the desert, because they found the reason for the flashes Liz was getting from Max, when they found the orb. The orb sent out a signal into the night sky. Max and Liz stayed the night, waiting to see if someone would come. They fell asleep waiting. They didn�t make love that night, probably because they didn�t want to be in the middle of something, if someone turned up in response to the signal the orb sent out. If Liz and Max hadn't fallen asleep as they waited to see if someone would respond to the orb signal, they might have returned home, before their parents noticed they had left. ``````````````` The reason Liz gave Future Max the speech about not being ready for sex is that Future Max was pushing her to break up with Max at the exact time Liz believed that she and Max would be together. Liz had been happy when the fortuneteller told her, �Intimacy. Sex. You will not be left wanting.� Those were the words Liz wanted to hear. Liz didn�t want to hear Future Max telling her that their having sex together in the previous timeline had brought about the end of the world. So Liz insisted to Future Max that she wasn't ready for sex at this time. She was denying that she could have had sex with Max in a previous timeline at this time, even though the audience knows that Liz was happy the fortuneteller said she would have sex with Max. The audience also knows that Liz was ready to have sex with Max, before Liz broke up with Max. And Future Liz and Future Max knew that they had sex the night of the Gomez concert, and that it was what they both wanted, and that they both had been ready for sex then, and they had cemented their relationship. They wanted to be together completely. ``````````````` In the previous timeline, Liz stopped worrying about Max getting together with Tess by the night of the Gomez concert, because things had changed from when Max said �Things will never be the same, but whatever happens, we have to stay together. It's the four of us now [meaning Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess]�. After Liz broke up with Max without discussion, Max kept trying to talk to Liz. He phoned her repeatedly, leaving messages. He talked to her in the street and told her, �I just want you to know about the whole Tess situation... It's just that it's definitely over. I don't have feelings for her. I've told her that...and she understands.� He asked advice from Maria. He talked to Liz in the caf�, after Liz saw him walk Tess home, following Nasedo�s murder. He said, �This isn't about Tess. It's about you and me. You think I'm gonna forget about you or get over it or something, but...but I'm not. I don't...I don't care about my destiny or my planet or anything else. All I care about is you. So just know this...I'm coming for you, Liz.� He went to her room on different nights. He serenaded her, and threw her white roses, her favorites. He bought Gomez tickets for them. In the meantime, Liz went to the fortuneteller who said, �He chooses you. The reading is clear. You marry your true love. You have happiness. The card here? Intimacy, sex. You will not be left wanting.� Liz was very happy. She imagined herself marrying Max. Liz also may have heard from Maria in the previous timeline [after the point in time she spoke to Future Max in this timeline, saying she wasn�t ready for sex] that Max hadn�t healed Tess, even though Tess was badly injured by Whitaker. Max only healed Liz, so Liz may have thought to herself that Max had thereby proven his exclusive love for her. He proved that he wouldn�t help Tess. He proved that he wouldn�t include Tess in his life. He would only care for Liz, and no one else. Tess eventually left Roswell, because of the way Max treated her. Liz had been obsessed with Max, ever since she walked away from him. She thought that their relationship could never be. But all along, Liz put the burden of proof that Max wanted Liz on Max. Before Liz walked away from Max, Liz said, �Max, you do have a destiny. You just heard it. I can't stand in the way of it.� Liz was giving Max a clear choice to choose her or choose working with Tess and going to his home planet. When Max proved that he chose Liz exclusively and would keep Tess out of his life, Liz was willing to get back together with Max. Liz really didn�t want to go to the Gomez concert in Santa Fe, which is what she said no to in both timelines. She really wanted to make to love with Max, which she did in the previous timeline, when Max came back again to ask her to the concert again. Cementing things between them was further proof to Liz that Max wanted her. ____________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________ Roswell shows the need for balance in people�s lives. Giving up everything for love can result in the end of the world. Love is part of life. Love must be balanced with responsibility to others. Max really needed to heed his mother�s message. He had been right to say, �Things will never be the same, but whatever happens, we have to stay together. It's the four of us now.� Even before his mother�s message, Max recognized that Tess was one of them. Max was King. As such, he had a responsibility for Tess, who was sent along as part of the mission that brought the four of them to Earth. Max used Tess� abilities, when he wanted to get the agents out of town, so he could get to Pierce and handle Pierce. Tess had helped to rescue Max from the white room. Tess had shown them the podchamber. Tess had gone against Nasedo. She wanted to be part of the group. It was Max�s responsibility to continue including Tess in the group. Max chose loving Liz, though, over including Tess and working to conquer the enemies who had come to Earth. If Liz had been willing to accept Tess as a necessary part of Max�s life, the world might not have ended in the first timeline. They all might have worked together. Max and Liz�s cementing distracted them from taking action after Whitaker�s death in the previous timeline. Earth fell as a result. Earth might fall again, if Max, Michael, and Isabel fail to handle Kivar in the future. Liz knows that Earth fell in the previous timeline. She needs to share what she knows with the others, so they can better prepare for the future. ____________________________________________________________ |
I still can't agree with you on this topic Citrus, so I think it's time to move on to another topic.
I was wondering if Max had a normal human photographic memory or if it was one of his powers that allowed him to remember the symbols on the cave in River Dog. He only saw them for a few minutes and yet he was able to sketch them out accurately. There were quite a few symbols. |
I
think it was probably easy for Max to remember the cave symbols,
because the symbols were familiar to him, even though he couldn�t
understand them.
Max was able to draw from memory the symbol he and Isabel drew in sand, years earlier, when they were in Florida. Isabel, Max, and Michael all recognized the symbol on the pendent Isabel found at Atherton�s, even though they didn�t know what it meant. There were only a few symbols on the cave wall (as opposed to hundreds and hundreds). Max had time to look at the symbols and commit them to memory, as he asked River Dog questions about them. Michael, for example, had a good memory. He remembered a passage from James Joyce's Ulysses and its page number. "What incensed him the most was the blatant jokes of the ones who pass it all off as a jest, pretending to understand everything and in reality not knowing their own minds." Page 655. Some people have photographic memory. But even people without photographic memory can remember some things with ease, especially things that interest them. :) ____________________________________________________________ |
In the Roswell High books, the aliens had photographic memories.
Also, when they were rescuing Max from the white room, Nasedo told Michael to "scan" the floor plan of the place into his brain. And Nasedo also said that all the alien powers were "human," but just more "evolved." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I read that Shiri is in a recent People magazine featuring turquoise jewelry, including one she wore in Roswell. |
There
was too much inconsistancy with the alien powers in the television show
for my liking, so I am going to have to agree with shapeshifter.
Excellent points about the characters as Metz created them. When in
doubt, it's probably best to go back to the source.
|
Good points, shapeshifter,
about the book reference. Also, Nasedo's advice to Max about scanning
the information. Now, there's a talent I'd seriously like to have.
After just watching Tess, Lies, and Videotape on the SciFi channel, I'm wondering what Nasedo's real job description was in the army. When the scene is shown with Michael going to Tess' house, the military pulls up with three men. One of them is carrying an M-16. Now why would a low level civilian worker whose job it is to advise the army on how to convert abandoned base facilities into storage units rate an armed escort for the two guys with briefcases who visited Nasedo's home? Important military officers who need an armed escort don't visit you at home. You visit them where and when they say. I think Michael's assessment might be more accurate. He said the job title for consultant is just another name for spy. Is it possible that Nasedo had been hiding in plain sight, pretending to be military intelligence. That would explain his travels all over the United States and the reason why the military was checking out his house. If he worked for the military at all, he would have to have used some alien powers to trick them into accepting him as human. Maybe even Tess' mindwarp helped him disguise his true identity. |
I
agree I always thought Harding was really in the military, his
background checked out and the best way to fake that is for it to be
true. As stated The military doesn't help you move unless you really
were a soilder. He demeanor fits it perfectly as well as being a Spy.
While there still remains question about his alligiancies, or wheter he
is in fact Nascedo or just Ed Harding. I do beileve the Scanning was
one of the few truth things he said. He in fact did nothing to help the
podsters in any way. Replacing Pierce was in the best interest of every
alien on the Earth which is another reason Whitticker was constantly a
walking continuity error.
As a Christian I respect Liz stance and it was one bright spots thoughout, but I don't like that the idea of Max acted improperly at this point of S2. . I think Liz problem was more with discussing something that personally with a person who she was not comfortable with FMax more than her hesitance with Max. It would have been uncomfortable to talk about than do. Watching SH it is pretty clear M/L would have went there had Max not felt heisitant about her feeling used. Max at that time was pretty much a gentleman. It was also a likely WB takeback like one tree Hill does. In EOTW, I think Max was a bit persistant and Liz just changed her mind in the real timeline. Simply "Not ready" is a fairly weak reason particularly for a teenager I have seen it backfire. I think they mutal gave in. |
Greetings, friends. Since the board software change I've been unable to post until now. Let me try once more....
(I still don't have much new to tell, but just wanted to say hello and let you know I still read this thread.) ~N. |
Hey Nemo! :wave:
The search engine on my archives isn't working right now, but some of you might recall the discussion of Tess as a type of the mythological Lillith. Well, interesting that Shiri is staring in a SciFi movie about a Lilith who also seems to by myth-based. Does anyone know whether Shiri plays Lilith in the movie? It's airing on Sept. 18 (see crashdown for more). Oh, and Nemo, interesting that this thread had fallen off the board until you posted. :cool: |
shapeshifter ,
Yes, Shiri is playing Lilith in Darklight which premieres on Sci Fi September 18th. |
It
will be interesting to see Shiri in something where she has some
darkness to her character. So far, everything I've seen of her has been
Liz type characters (Swimfan, A Time for Dancing). I bet if Roswell had
continued, there would have been some kind of alternate reality episode
for Liz and Maria, like a Dupes for humans.
|
Just thinking...
I've
seen Liz and Tess compared to Eve and Lilith, I think on this thread.
(Anyway, this is as good a place as any to discuss it. :) )
Conventional wisdom is that Liz compares to Eve, the good wife; and Tess to Lilith the evil. I'm wondering if that isn't backwards. In fact, Liz is the one who does not accept Max as King, nor take orders from him. As I understand it (and I need to research this), Lilith took the position that she was God's creation as was Adam, and Adam was not her master. On the other hand, Tess always insisted that Zan/Max was her husband and King; and only when Max fell short of his position did she betray him. (If you believe Departure, which I don't.) Eve offered Adam her apple, Tess gave Max her cherry. (Sorry if it's gross, but it's a fruit analogy.) Indeed, Tess eventually gave Max the "fruit of her loins". So, I'm thinking Liz = Lilith; and Tess = Eve. Comments? Or have I completely lost my bearings? |
That's a very interesting theory Reggie, but what do you think of S3 when Liz acted like Tess and became Max's doormat?
Any thoughts on that? |
Quote:
The above quote lacks truth. The author failed to research the facts. The WB Network initially planned to cancel Roswell after its first Season, the "alien-Romeo-loves-earthly-Juliet" Season. Fans campaigned for the WB to continue airing Roswell. The WB then decided to renew Roswell. The WB didn’t own Roswell. It had to pay to air Roswell. The WB wanted its own show, instead of Roswell, in order to earn greater profits. So the WB produced Smallville, a show about Superman, who is an alien character with romantic interests. Then the WB didn’t renew Roswell for a third season. Fans then campaigned for the UPN Network to air Roswell. The UPN Network picked up Roswell. Roswell did very well for UPN. UPN expanded its initial order to include more episodes. UPN was very pleased with Roswell and was planning a Fourth Season for Roswell, including a promotional campaign. Sadly, CBS acquired UPN, and the new head of programming didn’t want Roswell. The season order was cut to 18 episodes. The replacement shows for Roswell did poorly and were quickly cancelled. Even excellent shows with good ratings like Roswell are sometimes cancelled. __________________________________________________________________ |
The terms "good", "bad", or "evil" are sometimes used to describe people and the things they do.
Max thought Tess was evil, when he thought she was Nasedo, a shapeshifter who killed people. Max called Pierce evil, when Pierce threatened to kill Liz. Sometimes, characters are portrayed as good characters or evil characters. In Roswell, the characters do good things and bad things. Saying that Tess or Liz are "evil" overlooks the complexity of the characters. I think that calling either character evil is an attempt to pigeonhole and scapegoat one or the other of them into convenient categories that don't really apply to either of them. Reggie, in terms of your discussion, I think it's important to remember that Liz and Max became intimate, also. Sonia E., in terms of your discussion, I can’t think of any occasion in which Liz or Tess could be described as being a doormat to anyone. |
Citrus and Vine,
I wouldn't have expected anyone else to give me their unwanted two
cents except you. You love giving me your hypocritical posts and views
and believe me I LOVE answering them.
I'm glad you like my sig and I really don't care who, what, when, where, how and why? Roswell was canceled because it was period. You can constantly give your opinions, facts, and quotes as much as you want too and it still wouldn't change the fact that Roswell was canceled after 3 seasons. Yes, the fans campaigned and brought Roswell back even with "an alien boy in love with a human girl that he risked his life to save hers." Even when that premise changed to "the all alien idiot hour" and "a past life alien couple having HOT monkey sex on an observatory floor which resulted in a unwanted pregnancy," it still didn't save Roswell from being canceled. I'm glad that Smallville is doing great on the WB and I hope they have many, many seasons ahead. As long as "the dark haired alien boy doesn't sleep with the blonde haired bimbo and get her pregnant," then "the dark haired human girl doesn't take him back and become his doormat," then Smallville will have lots and lots of success in the future on the WB. According to your constant posts Citrus and Vine, Liz changed the future therefore Max and Liz did not become intimate. Max and Tess had sex and a pregnancy out of wedlock. Michael and Maria had sex and were not married either. The only couple that were legally married when they had sex were Jesse and Isabel. Since I didn't see Max and Liz make love on the screen, then it didn't happen period. Tess was an evil, lying, murderer even if you and others constantly make excuses for her killing Alex. When I am shown that Liz actually killed someone by her own hands and not by changing the future, blasting Tess across a room twice, and then driving Tess to the military base then she would become a murderer to me also. Tess was Max's doormat in S2 and Liz was Max's doormat in S3. Tess constantly fed Max bull and stroked his ego to get what she wanted. After Tess got Max like she wanted too, when Max found out that she was a lying traitor he couldn't even strap on a pair and stick by his Queen who was pregnant with his son. No, Max was spewing crap to Liz as soon as Tess blasted off in the Granilith. But, I've never felt sorry for Tess because she had to be a special kind of stupid to think that Max would love her when he was always in love with Liz in the first place. That's why I always laugh at Tess getting mad with Max in Departure about Max never feeling that way about her like he always felt about Liz. Please I would have thought since human emotions didn't matter to Tess like she constantly told Max, then it shouldn't have bothered her one bit that Max was always in love with Liz. Liz took Max back without a care in the world, and then decided to hold a gun on a clerk in Busted in order for Max to find a spaceship to find his son. After the explanation that Max gave Liz in Busted about Tess, I would have thought that Liz would have been a lot smarter to know that Max was a liar. But no, Liz constantly became his doormat time and time again until her powers started to show up and she finally got tired of Max's bull and left him. But to you Citrus and Vine that's neither here nor there because since you LOVE Roswell so much, you'll never see past your rose colored glasses. I still think you should contact TPTB and send them your viewpoints because "you love all the seasons of Roswell and all of the characters." Reggie, I'm still waiting to hear your views on Liz in S3 acting like Tess and becoming Max's doormat. Any more thoughts? |
Things
didn’t go the way Liz wanted them to go in this timeline, or in the
previous timeline. Whenever things don’t go as we might have wished, it
is useful to evaluate what went wrong and how we might have been done
things differently to secure a better outcome.
In the previous timeline, all went as some fans wished. Liz and Max became a couple again, after Liz left Max. Alex lived. Liz and Max fought aliens together for many years. Despite that, things didn’t go the way Liz wanted them to go. Liz didn’t want to die with Max. She wanted to live longer. She wanted to change what had gone before. Liz sent Max back in time to change things. Ideally, Liz would have changed herself, rather than have Max go back in time. Problems nearly always occur when we try to change other people, rather than change ourselves. People learn from the examples that other people set. Liz showed Tess that it was alright to lie to people and trick people into helping you. Liz told Tess that she wanted Tess and Max to be together. After Tess helped save Liz, Max, and others, Liz decided she wanted to be with Max. Liz basically made a deal with Tess. After Tess completed her work, Liz reneged on her end of the deal. Liz no longer wanted Tess to be with Max. Liz wanted to be with Max. Liz showed Tess that it was acceptable to use people to get what you want. As a result, in the current timeline, Tess mindwarped Alex, and Alex died, which didn’t happen in the previous timeline. It's true that Liz wasn't shown killing anyone. However, Liz very nearly was responsible for "Leanna"/Jennifer Coleman's death. If Leanna hadn't pricked her finger, Liz would have been an accessory to murder. Liz was lucky. Tess wasn't so lucky. Alex died, even though Tess didn't know he would die, and she didn't want him to die. If Jennifer Coleman had died from the fire Max set, then Liz would have been a murderer, as well as Max. Liz drove Tess to the Air Base, knowing that Tess would die in enemy hands. Liz had an opportunity to stop Tess, but she didn’t. Liz directly contributed to Tess’ death. Liz and Tess affected each other’s lives. Tess could have tried to get Liz to accept her, but I don’t think that Liz wanted Tess in her life in any way, even though Max as King was responsible for Tess and for the mission sent to Earth. Max wouldn’t work with Tess, knowing that Liz was upset when Max did anything with Tess. Tess had powers that proved useful in saving Liz and Max. Things might have turned out differently in either timeline, if Liz had found it in her heart to befriend Tess. But Liz already had friends. She didn’t want Max to remember Tess. She feared that Max would love Tess instead of her. Things usually have a way working out, even with betrayals, disappointments, and death. All are part of life. All are opportunities for each of us to learn and help others. I love Roswell and the characters in it. Roswell resonates with me and makes sense to me. Roswell is enjoyed and appreciated by many fans. While I wouldn’t want to have to face the problems and the dilemmas that the characters had to face, the story engaged me and continues to be meaningful to me. I’m glad that people continue to discuss Roswell. I have been surprised that people who say they dislike Roswell also continue to discuss Roswell at length for years. I find it interesting that some people who say they only like Season One nevertheless talk mostly about the other two seasons. :) I can only guess at the reasons why. Roswell has successfully produced 61 episodes that many people have enjoyed and continue to enjoy. Roswell ended airing new episodes, as all television series eventually do. Roswell was syndicated and re-aired less than a year after its last original episode concluded. Currently, Roswell continues to air five days a week on the SciFi Network. New fans discover Roswell, and old fans continue to enjoy it. Roswell’s popularity resulted in the show being released on DVDs. Some fans continue to work towards a Roswell movie, and some fans also hope for more episodes or a Roswell mini-series. If writers knew how to write stories that were exactly the way every television viewer might want the story to be, I think they would do so. Writers and other people want their work to be meaningful to others. People have different experiences. They are interested in different things. The most any show can hope for is the opportunity to tell its story. Roswell told its story wonderfully! Hopefully, people who didn’t like Roswell or parts of Roswell can someday find something they, too, like and enjoy! :) |
Citrus and Vine, I've heard it all before...yada, yada, yada, yada...blah, blah, blah, blah!!
Are you trying to tell me something because I am one of those fans that enjoyed Season 1 only and thoroughly thought Season 2 and Season 3 sucked big time? I will continue to post and give my views on what I didn't like about Roswell as long as people like you continue to praise Roswell for what you liked. You know like you've said "different viewpoints and perspectives and all." We all couldn't see Roswell through rose colored glasses and took anything TPTB dished out and found it acceptable. So, everyone will never be on that same bandwagon stating "I love all the seasons of Roswell, and all of the characters." I continued to watch Roswell to the end for the characters of Liz Parker, Alex Whitman, and Kyle Valenti. After Alex was murdered by Tess, I only watched for Liz and Kyle to see exactly what would happen to their futures. I no longer cared about Max, Isabel, Michael, and Maria, you know the innocent ones that could do no wrong in your book. Does that mean I wasn't a true fan or a true Roswellian?*gasp* That's just blasphemy!! Yes boo hoo for Tess, Liz treated her soooo bad so Tess didn't have any choice but to kill Alex, sleep with Max to get pregnant, and then turn them over to his enemies, because they were not her enemies. I happen to see Maria and Isabel just as responsible of lying and scheming to Tess as you say that Liz did. Isabel is the one that befriended Tess and brought her into their group, having an alien connection or not. Then I didn't see Isabel give a rat's ass about Tess anymore except to save her from Whitaker in Surprise. Maria is the one that knew about FMax and I really don't care if she knew the full story or not, she never opened her big mouth and told anyone else. All Maria wanted to know was Liz still a virgin, later for trying to save the world or FMax. Maria wanted to know if Liz was still Virgin Mary, and maybe in the long run that would have helped to save the world. Tess came sailing into Roswell with one thing on her mind and that was Max. Sure, Nasedo told her she was Max's wife and that she was royalty but after Tess realized that she wasn't going to get Max, that didn't stop her. Max and Liz were together in a solid relationship, and Tess continued to interfere. Did Tess think because she was Queen and she was superior to humans that Liz didn't mean anything to Max? Max repeatedly told Tess that he was with Liz, but Tess didn't care. So, since you think Liz should have shown some courtesy to Tess about Max, I must have missed the courtesy Tess had shown to Liz in regards to Max since her first appearance in Crazy. People seem to forget "what goes around comes around in life" and "you get back in life what you give." But, since Tess considered herself as only alien and human emotions didn't matter, I guess she never understood that concept. Liz showed Tess the same courtesy and kindness that Tess showed her and Alex since the first time she appeared in Roswell and I didn't blame Liz one bit. It's great and dandy that Roswell had 61 episodes and you loved each and every one of them. I personally disliked S2 and S3 and I thought Roswell sucked big time. Diversity makes the world go round and different strokes for different folks. I would hate to think since Roswell is considered a cult hit by some, that I would have to overlook what I disliked to please others who loved everything about it. But again Citrus and Vine, I'm glad you loved and enjoyed everything about Roswell and wouldn't change a thing. Maybe you can be a big help to the Roswell movie campaign to get you and others like you more Roswell or more episodes to add to the excellent 61 that you loved. |
Quote:
Ok. I'm missing something here. So why exactly do you bother continuing to read what I write or talk to me? Quote:
Quote:
I think that's the kind of thinking that keeps people making the same mistakes. Rather than take her cue from Tess' behavior when Tess was under Nasedo's influence, Liz had the opportunity to reach out to Tess, knowing that Tess was part of the mission sent to Earth to help Max and free the people of their planet. As long as Liz cared about Max, it was up to Liz to be kind to Tess. When Liz decided she wanted to be with Max again, Liz had the opportunity to discuss her change of mind with Tess. Liz had the possibility of including Tess in her life, especially if she was with Max. Kindness can go a long way to improving situations. Tess, like anyone, needed love and help, too. Liz had a far greater pool of people to choose to help her. Tess was an alien among humans. Liz probably would have improved her life and Tess' in both timelines, if she had been kinder and more considerate to Tess, rather than being afraid that Max would remember Tess and love Tess, instead of her. ______________________________________________________________________ |
Quote:
Just jumping in here, but I don't know of any female, who has another woman after her man, that is going to take the "kinder, gentler" approach to said female. Liz was good, but noone is that good Tess's attitude towards the humans from the get go had a lot to do with their reaction towards her. She was far from innocent. Her goal was to get the aliens away from their human influences so that she could lure them back to their home planet to be killed. No matter how much you try to excuse and rationalize her behavior, this was her goal. |
Quote:
I agree. And that's why I sympathesize with Liz. She did the best she could. She wasn't able to see beyond her feelings and fears to help Tess, in either timeline. Liz was willing to use Tess, though, in the second timeline. She knew what happened to Earth without Tess' help in the previous timeline. Because Tess helped saved Liz, Max, and others, Liz and Alex would have fared better, if Liz had considered Tess' feelings, instead of only her own feelings. It's a tough thing to do, especially if you're worried the person you love will love the person you help. Liz knew that Tess hadn't turned traitor in the first timeline. Alex didn't die. The Granilith was still available. The audience knows more than Liz knew. The audience also knows that the Granilith had to be activated with a crystal. Tess didn't take the crystal with her, when she eventually left Roswell because of the way Max treated her. She wasn't a traitor. When Tess first came to Roswell, she initially went along with what Nasedo wanted. At first, Nasedo was her only source of information. Tess, though, changed her mind. She didn't go along with Nasedo's plan. She acted on her own. She showed Max, Michael, and Isabel the podchamber, which Nasedo didn't want her to do. Nasedo knew that he couldn't count on Tess to help him anymore. Tess had told him that Max, Michael, and Isabel were her family, and not Nasedo. She had shown them the podchamber. She had disapproved of Nasedo killing people. Nasedo knew that Tess believed Max, rather than him. Nasedo acted on his own to get Max captured and have Pierce get the orb from Max, so Max would be unable to communicate with his home planet. Tess and Max nearly ran into Nasedo-Max, as Nasedo left with Liz. Tess was unaware of Nasedo's plan. Nasedo didn't phone Tess or let her know that he would be gone. He didn't want her to ask him any questions. Tess was very upset that he had left her alone without a word. He had never done that before. She still felt dependent on him to keep humans from capturing her. All of us make mistakes, and so did all of the characters in Roswell. All of the characters made choices that made sense to them at the time. Hindsight allows us to explore how things might have gone better in the past, and what can be done better in the future. Tess wasn't going to hand Max, Michael, or Isabel over to Kivar. However, Tess saw the flash of Max and Liz's kiss, as Max kissed her. Then Tess wanted to hand Max over to Kivar. Max betrayed Tess' love and trust in the worst way by kissing Liz, while Tess was pregnant with Max's child. Tess had asked Max if he wanted to go to Antar, just before they were to leave. It mattered to Tess whether or not Max wanted to go. Love turned to hate, though, when Tess learned that Max had kissed Liz, as Max kissed Tess. Tess then believed that Nasedo had been telling her the truth. She then believed that Kivar was her ally, and that Max was her enemy. If Tess had only wanted to carry out Nasedo's deal, she wouldn't cared whether or not Max kissed Liz. She would only have been concerned about getting him to go to Antar. If Tess had only wanted to carry out Nasedo's deal, she would have killed Maria and Liz, so Isabel would be with Michael, and Max would be with her. Tess didn't kill Maria or Liz. Tess protected them. She saved their lives. She saved Max's life. In return, Liz renegned on her word to Tess that she wanted Tess and Max to be together. Liz held hands with Max. She danced with Max. She kissed Max. Liz didn't consider what her actions would do to Tess. As a result, Alex died while being mindwarped, which didn't happen in the previous timeline. As a result, Tess wanted to hand Max over to Kivar. |
Quote:
The problem with this logic is that we don't know what happened in the first timeline. All that we know is that Tess left, where she went, noone knew. Noone knows if she went to the enemy or not, all we know is that she wasn't there to help Max, Michael and Isabel. She could have gone to the enemy, FM did not know. He was only going under the assumption that the four square was weaker without her. A great big chad was left hanging here as to what exactly happened in the first timeline, the audience as well as the characters were left hanging. Any assumptions about what happened are just that, assumptions and the fodder for fan fics. From what was given to us, Tess kept to the deal that Nacedo made. Her reasoning was her own, but the fact is she chose to keep to the deal was her decision alone to make. There was never any solid insight given into Tess's psyche. The only people that were capable of knowing were the writers and they themselves have said that Tess was evil and the bad guy, period. She killed Alex and was leading the others to their death. She didn't give two squats for humans and said so repeatedly. No amount of rationalization or romanticizing, can change her into a poor misguided character. There are those that saw her as evil from the beginning and there are those who want to believe that maybe she wasn't totally bad. However, we have to go with what was given from the writers and as was said, they always viewed her as evil. |
Quote:
You know Citrus and Vine, I've been asking myself the same question since you are the one that keeps responding to my posts and giving me your hypocritical views. I remember asking Reggie a question and you responded with your two cents as usual. So, let me make it simple for you, you like Tess and I like Liz so we will never agree on anything period. Quote:
Actually it didn't stop her and the first timeline means nothing because I didn't see it happen. Tess was just biding her time to get into Max's pants. When Liz went to Tess in TEOTW, Tess told Liz she didn't need her help. Tess was getting ready to let Kyle trim her lamp, but Liz interrupted them with a plan that Tess gladly accepted, even though she didn't need Liz's help. Liz wasn't there to help Tess or offer her a plan at all, Liz specifically told Tess that "she was doing this for Max, not Tess." It was Tess all by her lonesome that decided since she finally got her claws into Max, she might as well reap from the benefits. It's just too bad that Tess was too stupid to realize she never had Max from the get go and he only stuck with her because she was pregnant. Quote:
I see that you're feeling very self-righteous Citrus and Vine and seem to keep forgetting that Tess was the Queen of another planet and not Earth, so Liz or none of the lowly humans never had to bow down to her. I have no problem admitting that Liz made mistakes, but I don't have the problem of glossing over Tess's with constant excuses of her being raised by Nasedo, her needing love and friendship, and her needing kindness to be a better person. Didn't Tess have Kyle and Valenti to show her love and kindness when they took her in? I surely saw Tess being happy and content living with Kyle and Valenti, so there was no excuse for her turning into an evil, lying, murderer. The problem I have with your views Citrus and Vine is that you constantly hold Liz responsible for Tess's actions. Why does Liz have to show Tess anything, as you've said Max was the King so he was responsible for Tess being a part of the group? Liz might have been in love with Max, but it was not her responsibility to be nice to Tess so she can feel loved. Liz never liked Tess, just like Tess never liked Liz, so I never saw them being anything but people living in the same town. You constantly state that all the characters did bad things on Roswell, but I have yet to see you name anything that Max, Tess, Michael, Isabel, and Maria did. Instead you continually gloss over their mistakes and actions with constant excuses or blaming Liz for her actions and decisions. But believe me I have no problem holding Max, Tess, Michael, Isabel, and Maria responsible for their actions and will continually state them if I need too. |
jjac - :clap: :clap: WID to your posts!!
Citrus and Vine- Why don't you cut the crap and just get it off your chest? You don't like Liz, so how can you sympathize with her? I have no problem saying that I don't like Tess, Max, Michael, Isabel, and Maria so when I continually state my views I don't look like a hypocrite. But, as I've stated before "different strokes for different folks." |
Quote:
It’s important to remember that Liz of the first timeline wanted Max to go back in time to change things. Only if Liz and Max both trusted Tess would they have sent Max back in time. Otherwise, trying to change things would be meaningless. They loved each other. They would have died together, if they hadn’t trusted Tess. Liz didn’t like Tess in this timeline. But in the previous timeline, Liz knew more than her present day self knew. Liz had to have known that Tess could be trusted, or she wouldn’t have wanted Max to be with Tess in an alternate timeline. Liz of the future wouldn’t have risked the fate of Earth to a person she didn’t trust. We can ask ourselves, why Liz of the future trusted Tess, when she didn’t like Tess in the beginning. The answer is that Tess must have shown Liz and Max that she was trustworthy. How could Tess of the previous timeline have shown them she was trustworthy? She could have worked with Alex to get the book translated, just like she did in this timeline. Tess knew that the Granilith was important. She knew that enemies wanted it. Yet Tess never betrayed the location of the Granilith. If she had betrayed the location, or if anyone had attempted to get the Granilith or blow up the Granilith, then Liz and Max of the future would have known that Tess was a traitor. The Granilith remained in the Granilith chamber. Tess hadn’t betrayed its location. Max of the previous timeline had the crystal needed to operate it. Tess hadn’t taken away the crystal to prevent Max from using the Granilith. Liz and Max of the previous timeline knew with certainty that Tess hadn’t been an enemy to them. Next we can ask ourselves, why bother to try to change the timeline and include Tess in their lives? Why not go back in time and tell someone to do something that would better their chances of survival? Evidently, Liz and Max had discussed what could be changed and when it should be changed. They selected a specific moment in time to change. Liz had the power of precognition and energy blasting, but those powers along with Max, Michael, and Isabel’s powers weren’t enough to save Earth from the enemies. Liz and Max knew that Tess had the power to mindwarp, which no other podster had. They also knew that Tess could heal. Both powers would be valuable assets in a war against alien enemies. Liz and Max knew that they needed Tess’ help, and they knew that they could trust Tess. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have had Max go back in time to change things. Quote:
Tess’ mindwarp suppression killed Alex. That was the reason Max broke up with Tess. Max thought that Tess didn’t care that Alex died. Max didn’t know that Tess hadn’t wanted Alex to die, or that she hadn’t known that Alex could die from mindwarp suppression. Max didn’t know that Tess had confronted Nasedo about killing people. Max didn’t know that Tess had been upset, when she saw the agent Nasedo had killed. He didn’t know that Tess had gone against Nasedo, behind his back, when she showed Max, Michael, and Isabel the podchamber. Max didn’t know that Tess sent flowers to Alex’s parents in the Olsons’ name, because she cared about Alex. Max didn’t consider the fact that Tess could have killed Kyle to silence him, if she didn’t care about humans. Tess could have killed Maria and Liz, too, if she didn’t care about humans. She could have arranged it to appear that all four of them died together in an apparent car crash. Tess had the power to mindwarp, and Tess could kill humans. But Tess didn’t kill Kyle or Maria or Liz. And Tess hadn’t wanted Alex to die. She didn’t know that Alex could die from mindwarp suppression. Max didn’t know anything about the previous timeline. He didn’t know that Alex hadn’t died in the previous timeline. Max didn’t know that changing the timeline had changed what Tess did. Max failed to consider how his actions affected Tess. He failed to realize that kissing Liz, while Tess was pregnant with his child convinced Tess that Max was her enemy and that Kivar was her ally. Tess wanted Max to defend her. Tess didn’t mindwarp Max in the Granilith chamber to trick him into going to Antar with her, even though she could mindwarp Max. Tess really wanted Max to love her, stand up for her, and go with her to Antar. The writers told and showed the audience what was in Tess’ mind with Tess’ words, her expressions, and her actions. |
When was the decision made to make Tess Alex's Killer? And why Tess?
Well, it was "why Tess" because we were starting to work towards the idea of Tess leaving the show, and you know... that Max would have to make a decision, and to sort of underline ultimately that she was evil in... and I think, I'm trying to remember now, I think that we came up with that, that part of the plan after we had done the episode. And it was one of things, it was just sort of a breakthrough thing that came from the writers as we got further into the plot and we were starting to talk about, you know, things we would never forgive Tess for, and killing Alex was really one of them. In season one and the beginning of season two she was becoming more in tune with her human side after Nasedo was killed, then she came out of nowhere as the deceitful alien. Why? Well, the idea was more like, we wanted her to. And she wasn't so much in tune with her human side, she was just getting better at it -- she just sort of got better at blending in. She was always after Max, that was sort of a constant. Her thing was to get Max and to have a baby by Max, and that was always the motivation, so she just got better at being appealing really, rather than suddenly having a change of heart. At least that's how we saw it as the writers. And I should correct something I said earlier: Now that I remember, we did decide that Tess had killed Alex before we did that episode. That's one of the things that made that episode work... that Tess had done it ultimately. The above is a cut and paste from the interview that Ron Moore did answering some of the fan's questions from Roswell. It is on the Crashdown. Citrus and Vine, I get that you really like to discuss Roswell and the thngs that happened on the show. However, you take a lot of license with what happened and expound on the motivations of the characters and present it as being factual. The point is that the only people who really knew what the motivations of Tess were were the writers and producers and they have said that Tess was evil and was always after Max. There was no sudden change in character for Tess nor any complicated reasons for her doing what she did. It was her plan from the get go and she, at least according to the writers, got better at fooling the humans to achieve her ultimate goal, that was to get pregnant by Max and lure the rest of the podsters back to Antar to their ultimate death. It would have been nice if the writers had seen fit to tell us what happened in the first timeline or cleared up the mountain of chads that they left for us, but they didn't. It is also would have been nice if the writers had presented the characters as having as many dimensions as you have created for them. You could probably, if you haven't already, write some awesome fan fiction with the many scenarios that you have presented here. Sincerely, it would have made a much more interesting saga than was the Roswell that we were presented. |
Roswell was a collaborative effort. Shows were discussed and were written by various writers.
Ronald D Moore wrote many great episodes of Roswell. However, he didn’t write The End of the World or The Departure, which were both written by Jason Katims. Those are the two episodes which tell why Liz wanted Max to travel back in time, and how Tess changed from the previous timeline. In between those episodes, we learned that Alex died, which he hadn’t in the previous timeline. Tess didn’t tell anyone about Nasedo’s deal, until Max confronted her. Tess didn’t have to tell Max about the deal even then. She could have lied. Or she could have mindwarped Max and tricked him into leaving on the Granilith with her, if she had been determined to carry out Nasedo’s deal with Kivar. The Granilith had already been activated. Tess didn’t carry out Nasedo’s deal with Kivar in the previous timeline, although she could kill people and mindwarp her podmates. Tess wasn’t evil. Tess had wanted Max to love her. When she saw that Max kissed Liz, while she was pregnant with Max’s child, Tess thought that Max was her enemy, and that Kivar was her ally. Kivar wasn’t Tess’ ally. Kivar had killed Tess and her podmates in their previous lives. Nasedo tried to use Tess, but Tess wanted to be with Max, Michael, and Isabel. Kivar wanted to kill Tess and Max’s child. Tess fled Antar, because Kivar really was her enemy. Liz used Tess, and then reneged on her deal with Tess. Liz unknowingly and unconsciously showed Tess that it was alright to use people to get what you want. Roswell is a wonderfully written story. I have enjoyed it immensely! :) ____________________________________________________________________ |
Yes,
Roswell was a collaborative effort, but the writers worked for the
producers and the producers guided the gist of the story.
Ron Moore worked with Jason Katims in producing and writing the show and I highly doubt that they were at odds about the basic principles of what they wanted to present. He explained what they thought of the character of Tess, that she was evil from the beginning, and no amount of fan wishfulness or elaborate rationalizations can erase that fact. In fact, their thoughts were Tess's thoughts as she was a character developed from thier imagination. |
Why
is it all right to say that the characters of Liz and Max were changed
and did not act as they should, that you can't trust anything TPTB
said, that they never planned anything out, but that the character of
Tess was evil all along, based on one episode which most say was crap,
and they planned the whole Tess plot from the beginning based on an
interview from one of the persons who is not to be trusted..
|
Quote:
Dobson, I make no excuses for what Max and Liz became due to what Ron Moore and Jason Katims presented. In fact, I abhor what they did to the show and what it became. I also make no excuses and never have for Tess. I saw her as evil from the beginning, from the way that she was presented and the things that she did. Many did. Others wanted to see her as misguided and unfortunate and just needing love. My contention was that she was evil from the beginning and Ron Moore basically verified that fact with his question and answer interview. Whether or not you want to trust Ron Moore, you cannot argue the fact that he was one of the driving forces for what Roswell became. It was for him and Jason Katims to decided the direction and the characters for the show. He stated that Tess was evil from the beginning and that was his and Jason Katim's decision and intention. |
lol
but you can't have it both ways jjac..I have seen your posts on the SD
thread..many a time you agreed with your fellow SD's that TPTB had no
clue what they were doing, yet just because one interview say's that
Tess was planned to be evil all along, you are ready to believe they
actually followed a plotline over 2 seasons.....
|
jjac- :clap: ITA with your posts and believe me talking to some people when they think that they know everything is like talking to a brick wall. I've often wondered if some people weren't mindwarped, figuratively speaking of course, by TPTB and thought everything was great and wonderful
in Roswell Land!! I love different views and opinions but the constant
repeating of the same thing over and over again is a bit tiresome.
Tess used Max and Liz. Liz never made a deal with Tess or gave her word for Tess to have Max. What was Max a piece of meat for Liz to decide to hand over to Tess for a purpose? Even though you could say that Tess used Max as a piece of meat for her own purposes to get pregnant and turn him over to his enemies. In TLaV, Tess gave Liz her word that she wouldn't kiss Max again. Yet she constantly reneged on her word and sent Max sexual images of her in MTTM. Tess also came into Max's room in Four Square and layed on top of him in his bed to get him to come with her to the desert. In Destiny, Tess couldn't wait to get her hands on Max after the mom-o-gram was heard. Excuse me, Max and Liz were still together at the time, even though Liz left Max a second later. I really don't care if Tess was the Queen or Max's wife in a past life, Max and Liz were together and in love. Does that excuse Tess for being a bitch because she thought that Max belonged to her and screw everybody else? I love how some people are hypocrites and constantly make excuses for Tess because they hate Liz. But instead of coming right out and saying it they make constant excuses for Tess by blaming Liz for Tess's psychotic behavior. I've often wondered since Liz was the mastermind behind Tess and the Pod Squad's actions, how is it that Tess was considered the Queen when she couldn't think for herself or have a mind of her own? I have no problem whatsoever saying that Tess was evil from her first appearance in Crazy. I saw her as lying and manipulative as soon as she introduced herself to Isabel, and was rude to Alex. Max and Liz were presented to me as honest, smart, trustworthy, and intelligent so when they were destroyed by incompetent hacks, I saw the difference. Tess was never presented to me as anything other than a lying schemer to use people to get what she wanted, and that's exactly what she did. I really don't care what changes TPTB made in the scripts, writing, or storylines at the last minute, Tess came to Roswell evil to me and she died the same way. |
Quote:
If you have seen my posts on the SD thread then you have also seen me denounce both Katims and Moore. I have never, however, accepted the fact that they were somehow misguided in the way that they presented Tess. Moore and Katims have never given any indication that Max and Liz were evil or bad. They presented them as the heroes of the story. They twisted and pulled and stomped on them in the guise of presenting an interesting story, but they have never said that they were anything but the heroes. They on the other hand have and did present Tess as being evil. No matter how much you don't like it, she was the villain. They tried to present her as getting better as blending in to get what she wanted and some wanted to interpret that as she was changing. Maybe they did a bad job at the presentation, but the intent , as stated in their own words, was never to present her as anything other than the villain. That is the way that I and many others saw her. We got the implication, you didn't. Too bad. |
LOL......but if they were not misguided with Tess, how could they be with Max and Liz? you can't have it both ways jjac..lol
|
lol, I never said that they were misguided with Tess, I said that you were.
|
But
I am not arguing if Tess was evil or not..hell I saw she killed Alex,
that she had a deal with Kivar...I'm arguing about your use of one
interview to back up a point when in the past interviews from them were
not to be trusted, and the fact that they actually had a plot that
spanned 2 seasons.....
|
We
are arguing apples and oranges here. I have never said that Ron Moore
and Jason Katims were right in what they did with Roswell. Heck, I
don't agree with what they did with the story. But I have never tried
to justify what they did to the story. They tarnished the hero in their
quest to make him more human, they made the heroine into a doormat.
However, they never strayed from the fact that Max and Liz were the
heroes.
They presented Tess as the interloper villain in season one. You do not and did not want to accept her that way. All I am doing is pointing out the fact that that is the way they intended her. Ron Moore said so. It is and was their story to tell. We may not agree with the way that it was told but the fact is it was theirs to tell. That is the reason that I do not support any efforts to bring back the show. I do not think that they are good storytellers and don't agree with what they did to the show. I don't like season two or season three, but I am not about to fabricate and justify what they gave us into something that wasn't. Tess was not misunderstood, she was not justified in what she did, she had an agenda from the beginning and no amount of poetic lisence into her psyche can change what the writers and producers wanted her to be. She was what she was, evil. |
Your
really fixated on Tess aren't you..again I am arguing the statement
that they followed a plot over 2 season's.. don't care if they
tarnished max or liz, if tess was evil or not...I am saying that.. I am
saying that your point that they had a plot decided upon for a
character over 2 season's and followed it , based on an interview by a
person who you have stated and agreed with others on that what they say
is lies and BS......
|
I
am not fixated on Tess. I am just pointing out that the elaborate
delving into her psyche to prove that she is somehow misunderstood goes
against what the writers and producers stated about her character.
So, if one dislikes Ron Moore as a writer and producer it automatically goes that everything that he says or does is a lie? True, I don't like a lot of what he did on Roswell and he and Jason Katims made some major goofs and missteps on the show. But I am not going to say that he did not write and produce some good episodes on the show. The same goes for Jason Katims. They flipped and they flopped. The continuity sucked. Some of their interviews were BS and some were not. They were mistaken in what they thought that the fans would accept and they paid the price with the cancellation of the show. They tarnished the romance of Max and Liz and tried, with disasterous results, to inject interesing sci fi into the series. They tried to reinvent the show in season 3 and failed. But they did do some amazing things in season one that touched everyone here. Was there some continuity? Yes there was. Kyle grew and Alex, up until his death remained blessedly the same. Amy stayed Amy. So, yes, there were some things and characters that stayed within the scope of the way they were originally portrayed. So did Tess. So, on a show that did some wild and crazy things I guess it was possible in all of their ineptness that Moore and Katims were capable of some continuity. |
Then
why is not what they did with Liz and Max part of the continuity, or
any of the other characters not mentioned... If they had plotted out
other characters plotlines far into the future, what is so wrong with
where the characters of Liz and Max ended up.. it was not a warping of
the characters, it was just the story being told....it was where the
story was going to go all along.....and now you say that some
interviews were right and some wrong....so only the ones that help
argue a point are right, the rest wrong?
|
ITA jjac,
Kyle definitely grew and as FMax said " he turned out to be a great
guy," even better than his present self. And Alex, funny, sweet, smart,
and wonderful Alex was always a blessing and I surely missed his
presence in Roswell.
No wonder Roswell was canceled because TPTB decided to keep the "trash" and kill the good people with pure hearts and souls. |
Quote:
Or in converse, everything that they said were lies? I don't go for sweeping generalities. You want to say that everything the producers and writers did was wrong? Citrus and Vine asked where the writers said that Tess was evil from the beginning and I gave her the interview. You want to argue that because the screwed up with the storyline for the major characters every thing that they did was suspect. I am not buying it. But you will believe what you want to so I guess that there really is not point to this argument. |
No
I am arguing that you presented an article as proof of a point you
wished to make, when in the past at no time have you posted that some
of what TPTB said was true......I am not saying if the article is true
or not... I am saying suddenly you change what you have stated in the
past cause it would help you make a point.....
|
:wave: all
Can someone start a new thread please? Thanks a bunch! |
Quote:
Jumping in here. I've always heard jjac state that Tess was always evil from the beginning and that TPTB destroyed Max and Liz because of it. So, I don't really understand what the difference is that she presented an article as proof of a point that she has always said? But, maybe I'm just confused.*shrug* |
It's
not about if Tess was evil or not.. my point is she has never in all
the years I have read the SD thread stated that some of what TPTB said
was true.....she has always agreed with the general consensus of the SD
thread..
TPTB always feeds them BS in interviews....that is the point..all of a sudden she changes her mind and now says some of what they say was true |
Quote:
ITA TPTB always fed BS in their interviews and in their storylines, that's why Roswell was canceled. But maybe when the people who loved Roswell the way it was presented bans together to bring Roswell back, Roswell can be better and greater than before!! :rotfl: I really must be delusional!! :rotfl: |
Quote:
Before you make sweeping generalizations about what I say make sure that you can back them up. I am very careful about what I say and take pains not to say something that I don't mean. I agree with most, not all, of what is said on the SD thread. I have never personally met any of the people from Roswell as some have and I do believe their versions of what happened. Moore and Katims have done and said things that have purposefully misled the fans. I have never, however said that all that they say are lies. I have never had the occasion or been put in the situation where I have had to prove that some of what they say has been true. That being said, would you like an example? On the Crashdown, in the archives, Sept 2001, Ron Moore Talks Roswell in Dec. He talks about the 3rd season on Roswell and what will happen. As I said before, I don't agree with all of the things that they did, but I am not about to say that everything that they did was bad or everything that they have said have been lies. |
Quote:
|
I think we can all agree that Tess was a very complex character.
Quote:
Okay. But only because you asked just as nicely the second time as the first. ;) This way to the new RB1 #4 Thread. |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:59 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin, Copyright © 2000-2005, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.