Roswell Bureau of Investigation (RBI) #4
 

Okay, since you asked so nicely. :)
It will be a while before I can archive #3, since the new forum software doesn't display the entire 10-11 pages of a thread on one page when you select the print view.
But there's plenty of other threads to read in the Archives.

Thanks for the new thread, shapeshifter! :)

Here's a matter for investigation from the previous thread.



Whittaker had wanted the Special Unit to continue.

Whittaker killed Nasedo, because Nasedo disbanded the Special Unit, and because Nasedo didn't tell her where the Granilth was.

Whittaker probably thought that Nasedo had turned traitor, when she found out that he had replaced Pierce and had disbanded the Special Unit. (Nasedo, because he was a shapeshifter, had to do what Max instructed him to do. Nasedo wanted to get back to carrying out his deal with Kivar, so he disbanded the Special Unit, so he would no longer have to impersonate Pierce.)

Whittaker wanted the Granilith for herself, so she could return to Antar. She was tired of living in a husk. Whittaker was willing to kill for the Granilith.

Nasedo either didn't know where the Granilith was (Isabel found it after Nasedo was killed), or he refused to tell Whittaker where it was. So Whittaker killed Nasedo.

On the previous thread, we discussed mistakes the characters made and what they might have done differently to improve their lives.

Michael was a character that made many mistakes. He also often made up for the mistakes he made.

For example, Michael became power-crazy, when he received the Seal of Antar. He wanted to control people. He wanted them to do what he told them. He wanted them to support him.

After Max took back the seal from Michael, Michael didn't want to admit that he had done anything wrong. Later, though, Michael apologized to Maria for the way he had treated her.

Earlier in the series, Michael behaved badly towards Liz. Max commented to him, “You know, mean people suck.' And they do. Who among us hasn't thought of wanting to repeat that phrase after seeing people treated badly?

In real life, though, we can't say, “Mean people suck' to people who may be offended by the words. Max could say it to Michael, because they were friends. Michael later apologized to Liz.

On the issue of being treated badly, some Roswell watchers report that they were treated badly by the writers and producers of Roswell. They report that they were promised one thing and were given another. Some people report that their favorite character or characters were misrepresented or were written wrong. Maybe they are owed an apology.

Maybe the writers, producers, and all the people who love Roswell should do what Kyle suggested Michael do. Maybe we can all get "I'm eternally sorry" tattooed on our chests and just flash the tattoos every half an hour. Saves time, cuts stress! :) :) :)

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Citrus, thanks for the explanation; it makes sense.
Maybe too, Nasedo was also living under the requests of Max's late father, the previous King. For instance, perhaps he had to obey an oath not to tell the Skins anything about the Granolith.
Nasedo was probably crafty enough to find his way around the cursed requests of those bearing the royal seal, but Whittaker had lost patience. The way the Skins picked and pealed, I got the impression that aging husks were tortuously itchy--which would try anyone's patience.

:wave: your're welcome, shapeshifter! :hug:


:lol:

I thought it was odd that Whittaker, a Skin, fell so hard for Pierce, a human. What is it about us humans that even aliens are subject to our charms. Max fell for Liz, Michael fell for Maria, Khivar wanted Isabel (even though he claimed she was Vilandra she still looked like a human), Whittaker fell for Pierce, Nasedo fell for Whittaker (while thinking she was a human, as he said, "I've grown quite fond of the foul temptress"), Courtney fixated on Michael (a half human), Rath was attracted to Liz, and Isabel decided she wanted to be with Alex. Even where there were ulterior motives in some of these couplings, no one acted like they had to grit their teeth while snuggling up to their chosen human.

So true, shapeshifter about the itching. Kind of like alien poison ivy or heat rash. "Why couldn't those brats be from Seattle?"

Question. I have never gotten so wrapped up in a show as I have with Roswell. Most tv shows are boring to me even though there have been some remarkable exceptions. Usually when I find a show I enjoy watching, it is just that, a show. I don't think of the characters as real. I can see the actors in other shows and find them believable.

Not so with Roswell. The characters have really come alive for me, much as the characters in a favorite book sometimes do. I think there are things about the story and characters that I strongly identify with so that may be part of it.

I think that is why I have gotten more upset about a plot twist or the loss of a character I like. For most shows, I really don't care what they do. Is this true for other fans? Is Roswell something unusual? Do other shows get the same kind of anger and the insults directed at all the writers, producers and actors the way Roswell does?

I read some fans comments about other shows while they are posting on the Roswell board but they just don't seem as emotional as those who post about Roswell. If I went and read numerous posts on other shows I could find the answer to this question on my own but it would take a great deal of time that I don't have. Anyone here have any thoughts on the subject?

ooh! I've never seen this thread before, can someone tell me what's it about ? :)

For me, and from what I have experienced throuh interacting with other posters on the boards, Roswell touched a lot of people. When the previews were shown back in '99, it struck a cord with a lot of people who, I think, were looking for different fare from television. Whether it reminded viewers of awkwardness of the teenage years or their first crush, the show seemed to touch feelings that some experienced a long time ago. The added twist of the alien factor was enough to keep everyone coming back for more. It was also different, in that first season rather than watching rerums daily, because you had to wait a whole week for the next episode. When they first showed the shapeshifter who buried Hank, or when Max was captured by the Special Unit, imagine the excitement and the anticipation of waiting a whoe week to find out what happened! There were people who actually rearranged their schedules so that they would not miss the next episode.

The fans also worked very hard to keep the show on the air. The tabasco campaign, the donations to charity, and the reruiting of family members and friends to get them hooked on the show were only some of the ways people were working to spread the news about Roswell. People actually went out in the cold on the streets of Chicago to give out packets of hot chocolate and Roswell tidbits. You have fans who worked tirelessly with the help of the producers, and the actors at least in the beginning, to spread the word and get publicity for the show. The producers and the actors were amazed at the reactions they got from the fans.

There were also fans, such as Star2000monkey who had a satelite dish that could capture the broadcast signals that were sent to the stations so she got to see the show beforehand and would stay up all night to post on the next show and people would ask questions and she would answer. The producers and writers and the actors themselves would log on to read what she wrote and to gage the fan reaction. Some fans would do all-nighters just to be the first ones to read the reviews.

So there was a lot of fan buy-in and interaction with the producers and cast that I think was unprecedented for a television show. I think that it was different from the Star Trek phenomenon because there was no internet tie-in at that time. The internet allowed for more of an "instantaneous" fan reaction and inteaction which helped for the good and bad for the show. It also helped that the critics took notice and at least for the first season, got behind the show and bought in to the fans' efforts to help with the publicity.

Unfortunalty, the change in the direction of the show, although some did like it, did not sit well with a lot of the fans who were with the show from the beginning. They had faith in the prducers and writers, however and sitll continued to support the show based on that faith. When the WB cancelled the show they fought long and hard, once again, to lobby UPN to pick up the show. When UPN did, and the show took yet another direction, a lot of fans finally gave up and no longer tuned in. We all know the history from there.

While that is the gist of what happened, it still does not fully explain everything that went on with this crazy show. I think that the fans felt more personally involved with the survival of the show and the producers themselves have had to to give the fans their proper due because it was the fan involvement that kept the show on the air for as long as it lasted. I believe also that some fans felt that at times the producers and writers took for granted that fan support which has led to a lot of angry feelings that you may see on these boards. When season three ended so abruptly, Jonathan Frakes asked, "Where were you guys?", waiting for the fan support to come pouring out, but by that time most had been so thoroughly disgusted that they refused to help any longer. So ended what many felt should have been a franchise that easily could have lasted five seasons.

So, I guess this long-winded explanation was a little more than you bargained for, but I myself rarely watch televsion any more and I definitely will say that I will not let myself get as emotionally attached to anything as superficial as a television show again. I do, however, really enjoy the interactions with some of my friends on the boards and Roswell has got me involved in some charitable activities and I will always be hugely grateful for that.

jjac- Well said and very succintly put. :)

Hi, jjac.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question and taking my request seriously. I can understand the fan's feeling of betrayal if they became so personally involved in Roswell. When you've campaigned for something you love only to see it radically changed, it is only natural to be angry at those who changed it.

From what I've read though, I think everyone who worked on the show was pretty much given their marching orders as to the emphasis on scifi and the direction of the show. That's why I rarely criticize (well, seldom criticize). I'm not sure who to criticize. There were some some plot twists that left me throwing pillows at the tv set but overall I loved all three seasons.

I know how you feel because I feel that way about the new Battlestar Galactica. I absolutely hated the changes they made for the new show. I have no plans though to watch the upcoming miniseries because I see no reason to watch something I hate and get mad at those who do like it. The old series is out dated and some changes needed to be made but the robots being replaced with a sexy female is absolute heresy. I get angry just thinking about it. See, there I go. I say I'm not going to get angry and then all I have to do is think about the old robots and my resolve goes out the window. That's why I will not be watching the show. (Except I really liked those weapons where they showed the trajectory as a beam of light...I will not watch the show though...I will not watch. I won't).

I find it difficult to understand though, why the original Roswell fans keep getting angry at fans who do like the direction Roswell took. Not everyone can like the same things. There was some fine acting, writing and story telling that went into the whole series.

Like some others, I was not part of the original fan network. My feelings about the show come from all three seasons. Even though I hated it that they killed Alex and turned Tess evil, there were so many episodes I loved that I stuck with it. There are so many different opinions among the fans. I'm glad I watched all three seasons because I can't agree with those who say the show was no good. It is by far one of the best tv shows I've ever seen. The fact that the ratings don't agree with me bothers me not at all. When I see the shows that do have great ratings, I can understand that what I like in a show is different from the masses.

Thus ends my very longwinded response to your longwinded response. I appreciate your comments since some posters just go for the easy out of insulting anyone who disagrees with them.

ITA, and I think everyone that posts their views and opinions on this board should take this "statement" into consideration. Diversity makes the world go round and no one will ever agree with each other's views or opinions. But, I don't see it as someone trying to force their own likes and dislikes down someone else's throat. Disagreements are disagreements plain and simple, and I think we all can agree on that.

Since this is a public forum and if some posters feel that others are being rude and insulting to them, then maybe everyone should remember if you post your thoughts you should be willing to have someone take you to task for them. It's really a two-way street and vice-versa.

I remember when the shift was made to the scifi. The big consensus was that it was forced upon the writers and producers by the WB. There were a couple of critics though who wrote that they knew that the WB was going to get the blame for the shift, but that a good deal of it was initiated by the producers. I think when the fans found out that the producers also had a hand in the move to the subpar scifi there were some who were angry.

As someone who did not like all three seasons, I have no problem with people who did. As the show went on, I found myself finding other things to do with my time and didn't even bother to watch some episodes. I still have not watched all of the three seasons in their entirety up to this day. There is slim pickings these days to really good shows on television, so if you find something that you can enjoy, by all means watch.

By the way, I was a HUGE fan of the original Battlestar Galactica. I loved Richard Hatch and so when I heard of the changes to the new series I must admit that I was disappointed.

:wave: Welcome, prettylittleroswellian, to the Roswell Bureau of Investigation thread! Congratulations on being the moderator of the Johnny Depp board! We talk about all aspects of Roswell in all the television episodes. Other things that may help us figure out things or analyze things or compare things are discussed as well! :)




Some people have talked of wanting Roswell to have been more about Liz and Max's love (or, for some fans, more about Tess and Max's love). Some fans thought the show should be about love and romance, with limited story lines about science fiction.

Other fans prefer science fiction over romance.

For Roswell to have a believable premise, the science fiction element inherently had to be addressed. Otherwise, the alien characters might as well have been from another state or from another country, rather than from another planet.

In Battlestar Galactica, an underlying premise is that extraterrestrials exist, and they must be dealt with

The television series "Smallville", which is about Superman, has as its premise that the extraterrestrial alien Superman was sent to Earth to survive.

Roswell, rather that imitate the Superman story or the Battlestar Galactica story, has as its premise that the aliens were sent to Earth on a mission.

If Max, Michael, and Isabel never learned anything about their pasts, then they could reasonably behave as Superman characters, working together fighting crime on Earth. If they learned that outer space aliens existed, then they could battle aliens, as in Battlestar Galactica.

But from the first episode, the audience knows that there is probably an enemy alien around, who intends them harm. The alien deliberately left a silver handprint on a human body to be discovered. The handprint faded, so that if the alien had taken the body away or had destroyed the handprint or the body, no one would ever be able to prove that an alien had killed the human.

Intrinsic in the premise of Roswell is that a mystery exists. Who would deliberately leave a body to be found with a silver handprint on it?

The mystery, the science fiction, and the romance of Roswell all had to be addressed, if the story was going to be a valid story.

I love Roswell, because it contains mystery. I wasn't able to predict what would happen next. Roswell kept me wondering why things happened as they did, and what would happen next.

Some people watch television to enjoy something predictable. Game shows and reality shows have specific objectives. The audience knows the parameters of the stories, even if they don't know exactly who will win or who will do what. There aren't any real mysteries in those types of shows.

Regular mystery shows sometimes tend to be predictable as well. The audience knows who is searching for answers and that the hero or heroine will solve the crime within the episode.

Roswell, because it contains romance, science fiction, and mystery, keeps the audience guessing what might happen next.

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Excellent point Citrus and Vine, you touch on an important angle of the appeal of Roswell. I too was not part of the original group of active fans though I did love the show. I too was frustrated with the changes but hung in there as best I could with the new network, timeslot and format. I'll never forget how mad I was that UPN pre-empted the series finale with a basketball game (that our team lost) and how I frantically called friends and family in other states until I found someone who could tape the finale and mail it to me.

Roswell had a little bit of everything, so no matter what aspect of it you liked you could find a way to enjoy it. The enormous amount of fanfics and the books that have come out since the series ended only prove your point. This truly was a show worth watching for all the unknowns and what-happens-next aspects of it. I'll be over-the-moon happy if a feature film ever gets made, though I admit I'm unsure about what angle the writers of it would take and how it would turn out. The chance of being disappointed is always there, but the fact that we all keep coming back for more anyway says it all.

Roswell was a gift, and we are all fortunate to have had it touch our lives.

I agree that the thing that made Roswell unique was the alien aspect, but within the parameters of living in a human world.

It would have indeed been boring or just another teenage romance series without the mysteries of what the alien aspect had to offer. The problem that some had with seasons 2 and 3 was the way that the alien aspect was addressed. From the Pilot there was a mystery about other aliens also surviving the crash. The question was, were they good or evil and why hadn't they made themselves known? The discovery of this mystery as well as the fear of the special unit gave a real excitement to the first season as well as the possibility of the romances bewteen the humans and aliens, the Romeo/Juliet concept. Add to this the Native American tie-ins as well as the friendship with Atherton and the sheriff hunting the aliens and you had real excitement. The possibilities were endless.

What happened and what disappointed a lot of viewers was that the producers went with the tired triangle storyline that one sees so often in other television shows. Added on top of this was a very general, not well thought out war on a planet light years away that possibly existed in a solar system with a red giant, meaning it was in the waning years of it's life cycle. Plus you had hybrid dupes, easily disposed of husk wearing enemies and a deposed royal group with underdeveloped, undisclosed powers who believed everything their enemies said about them and who constantly remained in the dark about their powers and their history. The loss of the tangible fear of the special unit, the badly explained raison d'etre and the loss of the Romeo/Juliet love affair made the show more of a run-of-the-mill/been-there-done-that series. In other words, it lost what had made it different and special and attractive to viewers who were looking for something different and special.

This is not a post to knock the people who enjoyed the show even after season 1. It is just an explanation, at least from my small perspective, of the reason that a lot of the fans who were with the show from the beginning abandoned ship. Roswell had so much potential and so much story to tell it is just infortunate that somehow the story took a side road and could never get back on track.

I know what you mean! UPN pre-empted Roswell episodes in our area, too. Fortunately for us, our station aired each pre-empted episode at 1:00 in the morning, so we could still get the episode.

UPN is a relatively small network and isn't available to all television viewers. Roswell had no promotion in our area, and other Roswell fans reported the same lack of ads for the show in their area, as well.

I loved watching Roswell, when it originally aired! I sympathezied with the fan who reported that she refused to pick someone up from the airport, because the time conflicted with Roswell. :)

VCR made it possible for us to see the episodes, even if something came up. :)



I wondered, too, so in the past, I checked other boards. I found that all the shows I looked at had very similarly worded, vitriolic posts about the stupidity of the writers and the producers--even on boards for the tamest and most innocuous (to me) of shows.

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Sometimes people who speak in conversations use exaggerated expressions or words. Sometimes we speak inexactly or incorrectly. For example, Ronald D Moore, an excellent writer of Roswell episodes, said this in an interview with Kathie Huddleston http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue234/interview.html




Here, Ron Moore, who wrote the episode, calls the guys Michael worked with "a bunch of other slacker losers".

Actually, the guys Michael worked with weren't slackers. They had been conscientiously and diligently working at their jobs, before Michael got them doing other things in addition to their jobs. The guys got their work done, and they did more.

The guys weren't losers, either. They were employed. One of the guys had a family he supported, as well.

Michael's friend Monk lacked an exciting life outside of work, but that didn't make Monk a slacker or a loser. So even though Ron Moore called the characters "slacker losers", they weren't.

Many of us sometimes speak imprecisely and exaggeratedly. I think that sometimes, when people interview us, we may say things that may be off the mark or inexact.

I think such is the case when Ronald D Moore called Tess evil, when talking about her.

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I think of a love triangle as one person being romantically involved with two other people simultaneously, or as one person being romantically involved with a person who is also romantically involved with another person.

Liz and Max and then Tess and Max were sequentially, rather than simultaneously, involved in romantic relationships.

Max wasn't in a romantic relationship with Tess, when he and Liz were a couple. Liz broke up with Max. Almost a year later, Max became romantically involved with Tess.

Liz and Tess, though, each thought of the other as an interloper. Tess, because she loved Max and had been told that she and Max had been a married couple in their previous lives, believed that Liz interfered in her marriage with Max.

Liz, because she loved Max and had been told by Future Max that they had married in a previous timeline, believed that Tess interfered with her marriage to Max.

In Roswell, things were complicated. :)

The term "triangle" usually refers to a third person being introduced in an established relationship to "shake things up". This was the terminolgy used by the producers and by Emilie when describing the Tess character. It is used often in soap operas and in primetime television shows to add a little spice to the show. Unfortunately on Roswell it drove away a lot of fans.

I especially liked the way the characters of Roswell were portrayed.

At first, Max, Michael, and Isabel thought they were the only aliens on Earth. Could they or should they find romance?

Max and Isabel were raised as brother and sister, so it seemed unlikely that they would fall in love with each other. Michael and Isabel might fall in love, but since they had grown up together from childhood, they might not find love with each other. Childhood friends rarely marry each other. Also, Isabel thought of Michael as a brother, so it was unlikely that a romance would happened between them.

Implicit from the first episode is that a killer alien might be one of them. If so, why was the killer fourth alien born before they were? Would the fourth alien be male or female?

Some fans thought from the beginning that another female should have been sent to Earth with the aliens, so that each alien had a special someone for him and her.

Roswell could have continued the story without addressing whether or not another female had originally been included in the group. Or the show could have had someone discover alien female remains to explain the absence of another female in their group. If the remains of a female alien had been discovered, then there might no longer exist the potential of someone new disrupting an established love relationship. Absent finding such remains, there inherently existed in the storyline the potential of someone else coming along, who might disrupt the romantic balance of the story.

Roswell could have ignored the question. Max and Liz could have fallen deeper in love, from the episode Sexual Healing until the end of the series. Roswell didn't go that way.

I'm only familiar with a few television shows. I'm unaware of any shows that have a man and a woman in love throughout the series, except perhaps comedies.

In many love stories, "and-they-lived-happily-ever-after" marks the conclusion of the love story. Writing about happily-ever-after, while desired by some fans, may be difficult to do.

Although Max and Liz's season one romance has been termed a Romeo and Juliet romance or love story, I appreciated that Liz pointed out to Max that Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet romance was a tragedy.

I love the way Roswell was written, performed, produced, and presented. I'm sorry that other people were disappointed or angered by the way the stories unfolded. I guess many of us would like everyone to live happily. :)

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Citrus and Vine,

You know, I think that they can keep a couple together and add problems without destroying the fabric of the relationship. The addage, "a happy couple is a boring couple" was used as an excuse, but happiness doesn't necessaryily mean no problems. I don't think that it is possible for a couple to be together without any problems.

For instance on Seventh Heavan you have the main couple, the Camdens and their relationship has its ups and downs and yet the fabric, or what makes them a couple still endures. It is possible and every married couple, I believe, can agree.

The concept of Roswell, the aliens among us, already had so many built in problems or potential for problems that bringing in the triangle aspect was unnecessary. It was old and tried and worn and took away from what had made the story unique. All that I am saying is that it was not needed to generate conflict. There were so many other issues and avenues that could have been used as obstacles that would not have chased away fans.

I think the goals of the Camdens in 7th Heaven are very different from the objectives of Roswell. I think 7th Heaven's theme is raising children and interacting with the community.

Roswell has as its major themes romance, mystery, adventure, aliens, and suspense. At Roswell's core is the question of whether or not Liz and Max could or should be together, since they are from different planets and the motives of those who sent Max, Michael, and Isabel are unknown.

Once the question of whether or not Liz and Max could or should be together is answered leaving no doubts, a major plot point of Roswell is lost.

I think for Roswell to be true to its premise, doubt about Liz and Max's relationship had to be an ongoing part of the story.

When the television series concluded, the question was resolved, and the story ended.

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I liked the Skins as enemies. They were almost invincible, and they evidently took over Earth in the previous timeline.

The Skins were vulnerable. Courtney turned traitor, because she loved Michael. She exposed their weaknesses. Some viewers were surprised the Skins could so easily be dispatched. Even the strongest people have weaknesses, as did the Skins.

Kivar found Isabel/Vilandra's weakness in her previous life. Isabel/Vilandra's love and trust proved her undoing. Her life and the lives of many she loved were destroyed.

Pierce was surprised that he could so easily discover Max's vulnerability. Max's love for Liz made Max reveal where he hid the orb.

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Unrelated to any current conversation, someone asked why Isabel's picture wasn't next to Max's in the school yearbook, since their last names are the same, and the pictures are arranged in alphabetical order.

By removing her own picture and changing Max's photograph to a green alien, Isabel made certain that Max knew who was responsible for the picture alterations. :)

Hey guys :wave:

I watched Roswell from the time the Pilot aired to the end of Season 2, and by then I got tired of it.

There were so many thing that could have spiced the show up.

1) Liz DID look a lot like Sheila Hubble, not just with the hair but facial features as well
2) They should have brought Khivar to Earth.

And the end of that one ep dude was like "It is time." Time for what...What is it time for??? Didn't no massive alien attack happen, so why did they show that?

3) The Skins.....JOKE...A complete joke as an enemy.


Anyways...I get the feeling that Khivar wasn't a skin. He might have been a shapshifter gone bad. I use to suspect that Dougy in the Blind Date ep was Khivar.

I've been skimming through this thread and the previous one and finally sat down to read it.

So the gist of some of the assumptions and points of view are that in order for there to be a scifi angle they had to at least damage, if not destroy, the romantic angle it. Is that it?

If it is, then why didn't they do the same to Michael and Maria? Why didn't they have Michael have unprotected pity sex with Courtney or some other bimbo to ease his frustrations and stroke his ego? Why didn't Maria go have a wang-bang of a time in NYC with Billy instead of running up to Vermont to see Liz after her singing career fell apart? Why was it that only Max and Liz's relationship had to be destroyed in order for there to be scifi, and only marginally successful scifi at that?

The answer is, they didn't. There were plenty of scifi storylines they could have done that included all of the relationships. Fanfic is full of them and many are a damn sight better than what we saw on TV. In S1, they had no idea why they were there or where they'd come from. That right there was loaded with incredible scifi possibilites. It's just too bad that they picked the wrong ones to follow...or sort of follow.

And nowhere did TPTB or the show itself say that there HAD to be a second alien female. If you want to introduce aspects from fanfic, this becomes a whole other discussion.

I think Roswell showed that even after a relationship breaks up, for whatever reason, the possibility exists that people can work together for the good of each of them and others.

If Roswell had told that with Michael and Maria's relationship, or with a relationship with Isabel, the point wouldn't have been as strong as it is with Liz and Max's relationship.

I love romantic relationships and happily ever after endings. Finding a compelling story with characters like Liz and Max falling in love and working together with nothing to break up their relationship might interest me, too. But I can't recall ever finding another television series that did that, though perhaps there is one.

I love Roswell, because it told stories in ways that are meaningful to me. If Roswell had gone a different way, I might have liked that as well.

I think perhaps there may be reasons why Roswell and other television series don't have stories that are as some fans wished Roswell had been. Although I think writers would like to write stories every person would enjoy, I think writers can only write what they know or can imagine and what is meaningful to them.

Perhaps some day there will be writers who will write the stories that disappointed viewers hoped for. Maybe writers write hoping to change things, knowing that things don't always go as we might like. :)

I've always thought that a case could be made for Tess and Nasedo being evil. An airtight case? Nah, there is no such thing in the writings of Roswell, because there was no belief in continuity. But, a case for evil nevertheless.

Were I to look only at the revelation in Departure, and the Tess portrayed in season 2, I could be surprised. After all, butter wouldn't melt in her mouth. But, I have yet to see a traitor or killer who announces to all and sundry that he/she is evil and bent on destruction, or has "Yes, I Am Evil" tattooed on their forehead.

When I go back to season one, I can find a few things that could make a case. Now, Nasedo obviously has some clandestine ties with the FBI. He has killed agents of the special unit before, as Pierce told Max. He also told Tess that Pierce was closer to them than anyone had ever been, which could imply firsthand knowledge. And since he was already in Eagle Rock, posing as an FBI agent, when they went to rescue Max, I can assume he has some sort of way of infiltrating them.

If he lost contact with Max, Michael and Isabel when they hatched from their pods, there is the possibility he couldn't find them. He was in hiding with Tess for ten years. When Max appeared on the FBI radar, Nasedo knew it. What better way to find them than to let the FBI do his work for him? Pierce seemingly never knew about Michael and Isabel, just Max. But, that was enough.

Nasedo left a signal in Frazier Woods, and Michael responded to it later behind Max's back. Nasedo clearly already had Max, Michael and Isabel under observation, because he burned a surveillance photo of them. This was as far back as Valentine's Day, and this speaks to already having some sort of knowledge of them. I think he was reasonably sure he'd found what he was looking for. But he sends a signal, which implies a desire to meet, and then doesn't answer when a response is given.

And he and Tess toyed with them for months. Even after they finally made initial physical contact, they were coy and manipulative, amused at three podster's attempts to figure out who they were. Any time in there, they could have revealed themselves to Max, Michael and Isabel. Michael, especially, would have welcomed them with open arms. Unless Nasedo and Tess were obtuse, they had to know that the podster's interest was based on trying to establish Tess as the fourth alien. Yet, instead of honesty, there was manipulation that went on for a long time. Isabel asked Tess if there was anyone on her radar now that she'd been at West Roswell High for a few weeks. Tess was amused at the podsters and their friends all following her. And there was something smarmy about Tess worming all that information out of Max's mother.

I could make a case for the destiny book being bogus too. After all, Nasedo had to have been the one to stash it, Tess knew where it was and made sure that Max saw her retrieve it. Again, a rather manipulative moment. Nasedo planted it early on, and he was near the library as far back as Valentine's Day. And, right in the middle of the book, are the etchings of Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess ... as they looked as adults. Now, I ask you, if Nasedo had access to the book and knew what they would look like, why in the world would he need an entire box of surveillance photos of Max, Michael and Isabel? All he had to do was look at the book. He knew where it was, because he stashed it.

It's simple, really ... retrieve the book, look at the etchings, and see if Max's face matches what's there. See who Max hangs out with and if their faces match the other etchings. Yet, all those photos could easily give the impression that he wasn't positive who they were. So, Nasedo, with his FBI access, finds out that Max is under suspicion, and puts him under surveillance as well, maybe for months. And, since he knew that he was looking for two others, he could deduce from his surveillance who Michael and Isabel were.

It actually makes more sense for me to say that they planted the etchings in the destiny book after finding the other three, to lend credence to a false idea that Max and Tess were meant to be together. More sense than to think that Nasedo had a perfect likeness of them, but couldn't seemingly find the broad side of a barn, much less the other podsters when etchings were supplied.

It all isn't overtly evil, but it speaks to having their own agenda. Given the podster's eagerness to find the fourth alien, I can see no reason for Nasedo and Tess having held out on them, and having played them, especially for the length of time that they did. Immediate contact and total honesty would have led me to believe that Nasedo and Tess were on the up and up. But the games and manipulations go a long way toward convincing me that the two of them could have less than the best of intentions.

And, maybe, Max had it right when he asked Isabel why they would want to contact someone who could possibly hurt them. How positively clairvoyant, that.

Great posts, everyone.
It would be interesting to do a questionnaire that took the point in the 3-season run of Roswell at which a fan started watching, and then had the fan rate whether Tess was good or evil on a sliding scale of, say, 1 to 10, and then compare the results.
Similar questions could be asked regarding whether the fan liked/loved/hated Max, Liz, and other characters, again with the episode of first seeing the show recorded as well.
I wonder if there would be a pattern or not.
And while we were at it, I'd like to throw in such things as age, gender, and marital status of the fan, and whether the fan had ever been jilted for another.

editing to say that I sooo did not realize this would be at the top of the next page.

Well presented arguements Seive...
Interesting idea shapeshifter...

Great post Seive. I could also add that from the beginning of season 2 it was made evident that over the summer Tess was still after Max. When Nacedo came back he nagged Max over whether he and Tess had consummated their relationship and pressed him over how important it was. Even with Liz out of the way, Max still wasn't going to Tess, hence her frustration and her insinuations to Kyle about "lamplighting". With EOTW all that happened was that Tess was finally offered the "in" that she had been looking for all along and she took advantage.

In Departure, in the pod chamber, Tess finally revealed to Max what was going on from the moment she and Nacedo "found" the rest of the podsters in Roswell. She was looking to get pregnant with his child and fulfill the deal that was made with Khivar.

I love this thread, great discussion everyone! My question has always been, why did Tess feel compelled to fulfill the deal with Khivar and return to Antar pregnant with the other three in tow? What's in it for her -protection from Khivar's wrath or some sort of reward on Antar? Did she know Khivar would come after them or invade Earth if she didn't go through with it? According to EOTW that happened anyway when she left Roswell due to Max's lack of interest in her.

She said Nasedo and Khivar made a deal before they brought the pods to Earth and that's what she was following through on, but it's not explained (or I've simply missed it if it was) why that was something she felt obligated to do. I think it would have been interesting to see her get together with Kyle and the whole group to stay a team. It seems Khivar was hell bent on invading Earth one way or another at some point anyway, so if they stuck together they'd be the "complete unit" Future Max was working to preserve when he visited Liz. That's one of the things that makes me want to slap Future Max. I know he believed he had only one card to play and no choice but to play it - but there were other options that would have kept the Royal Four together and allowed M/L to stay together (Tess and Kyle hooking up, for one). All the same, EOTW was a beautifully heart-wrenching episode. Love has to endure some real tough trials to evolve and strengthen, so I can see why they took it in that direction.

It would be interesting to know why Tess decided to go through with the pregnancy plot someday though....

:wave: Hi, everyone!

The following responses to the quoted posts are my opinions.



That's correct. The audience knows there is a hidden agenda.



I agree. The so-called destiny book was bogus. It incorporated Nasedo's deal with Kivar, that is, that Tess produce children with Max, and Isabel produce children with Michael. Kivar needed a lineal heir with Antarian blood from Max and/or Isabel, so the child could have the Seal etched on the child's brain, thus proving to be legitimate ruler of Antar, who Kivar would then control.

It was unnecessary for Nasedo to plant the book in the library, because Tess could mindwarp people. Tess didn't need to take a book from the library wall. She could mindwarp people to think that she had pulled the book from the wall.

Tess knew that she had successfully mindwarped Liz and Max, when Liz went to the Harding home and told Tess that she (Liz) had seen Max kiss Tess. Tess surmised that since Liz was still with Max, they had talked about the kiss. If Tess had only been able to mindwarp Liz, Max would have disputed having kissed Tess. But Liz confirmed for Tess that she had been able to mindwarp both Max and Liz.



Nasedo evidently learned from the Special Unit about the silver handprint healing in Roswell. Nasedo had to verify whether or not the incident had been real or a hoax. He also needed to know who the other two Royals were, if Max was Zan. So Nasedo created the alien signal and alien symbol in Frazier Woods, and then waited to see what would happen. Max, Michael, and Isabel came. They found the symbol, illuminated it using their powers, and then Max erased the symbol. Nasedo then knew for certain that he had found the missing three Royals.

Nasedo surveilled Max, Michael, and Isabel, taking pictures of the three, so he could figure out how to control them, in order to get them to produce heirs for Kivar. Nasedo had a major problem. Although he could tell them anything, since they didn't know anything about themselves, Nasedo, because he was a shapeshifter, had to obey Max's direct instructions. So Nasedo, of necessity, had to stay away from Max as much as possible, so that Max wouldn't control Nasedo.



Nasedo and Kal were sent by Kivar to Earth around 1959, in Kal's beautiful, fully functional spaceship. Nasedo didn't know the Royals were still in pods. So he made friends with Atherton, in order to find out everything Anterton knew about aliens. After he learned all he could, he murdered Atherton, deliberately leaving behind a silver handprint on the body, so humans would look for other reports of silver handprint incidents. (Nasedo knew that King Zan healed people near death, leaving a silver handprint.)

Nasedo found Tess, after Max, Michael, and Isabel had already left. Nasedo didn't know who took the three away or when they had been born. It didn't occur to him that they might have left the chamber by themselves and been taken in by humans. Otherwise, Nasedo would have found Max, Michael, and Isabel, because the story of the children found in the desert was well known.



I agree. But then Tess went against Nasedo and his agenda. She began thinking of Max, Michael, and Isabel as her family. She went against Nasedo, and took her podmates to the podchamber, hoping they would remember her. Nasedo was upset. Tess told him that he wasn't her family. She confronted Nasedo about killing people. Nasedo knew then that Tess trusted Max, instead of him. He stopped confiding in her. He reminded her that she couldn't survive on Earth without his protection.

Until Tess heard the message from Max and Isabel's Antarian mother, she couldn't be sure that she should be with the others. Even then, her podmates had their own lives and their own loves. Max and Isabel had been conditioned by humans to think of themselves as humans.

Max had accepted Tess as one of the four. But Liz didn't want Max to work with Tess, because she feared Max would remember Tess and love Tess instead.

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There really was never anything in the Nasedo-Kivar deal that would benefit Tess. Tess was to be used to produce an heir for Kivar.

Tess didn't do anything to get Michael and Isabel together, after she went against Nasedo. She could have let Maria be killed by the lady Skin in the UFO Center, instead of saving Maria's life. She could have killed Maria later, to keep Michael from being with Maria. Tess didn't wait for Isabel to get pregnant, before going to Antar. Tess' main concern was going to Antar. She also hoped that Max would want to go, too.

Tess could mindwarp thoughts. She couldn't control people, though. Tess could mindarp Max, but she didn't mindwarp him to think that Liz did bad things. She also didn't kill Liz. Tess sincerely hoped that Max would love her.

Alex wanted to win back Isabel, who showed interest in Grant. Tess wanted to be with Max. So I think that Tess and Alex got the book translated in both timelines. I think they didn't tell anyone else what they were doing, because they didn't know if Alex would be successful in decoding the book.

In the first timeline, Tess didn't use her mindwarp suppression to keep Alex from telling anyone what they had done. Alex didn't die.

In the second timeline, things were different. Tess wanted to leave Earth, because it proved to be so dangerous to her. Tess was attacked by Nicholas and the other Skins. Lonnie and Rath tried to get into her mind. Those things, in addition to being an alien without anyone to love her romantically, led her to suppress Alex's memory of decoding the book in Las Cruces, until she could figure out how to activate the Granilith.

Max began to be interested in Tess romantically, but Tess was unsure whether or not Max wanted to go to Antar. Max had been conditioned by two loving parents to think of himself as human.

Alex's mindwarp suppression came undone, and he died, as Tess tried mindwarping him again. Tess didn't want Alex to die, and she didn't know that he could die from her mindwarp suppression.

Tess was sad that Alex had died. She sent flowers to Alex's parents in the name of the Olsons.

Tess unexpectedly became pregnant the first time she was intimate with Max. Tess needed to leave Earth all the more, to find a safe home for herself and her baby.

Tess changed her mind about loving Max, when she saw a flash of Max and Liz kissing, while Tess was pregnant with Max's child. Then Tess believed that Nasedo had told her the truth about Kivar. Tess then believed that Kivar was her ally and that Max was her enemy.

When Max didn't stand up for Tess in the Granilith chamber, Tess then believed that she should trust Kivar.

Kivar wanted a child with lineal, royal, Antarian blood, who would receive the Seal and be the true ruler of Antar, who Kivar could then control. Baby Zan was fully human and unsuitable to receive the Seal of Antar.

Kivar wasn't Tess' ally. He had killed Tess, Max, Michael, and Isabel in their previous lives. Kivar wanted to kill Tess' child, baby Zan. Tess fled with Zan to Earth.

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Actually, Tess said Nasedo made the deal 40 years ago, which would have been around 1959, around the time Nasedo killed Atherton.

Nasedo didn't come to Earth with the pods. He came to Earth later, on the spaceship with Kal. Tess thought that Nasedo was her protector.

In Roswell, people have to figure out who to trust. Valenti at first worked against the aliens. He was their enemy. Topolsky at first worked against the aliens, too. She also changed her mind. Kyle at first wanted to destroy Max. Later, he changed his mind about helping the aliens.

Some fans liked Tess from her first appearance. I thought Tess was trouble. Later, Tess helped everyone and help save Liz and Max and many other people's lives. Tess protected baby Zan as best she could. She sacrificed her life, so that he might have a better chance at life.

Tess also cared about Liz. She knew how hurt she (Tess) had felt over Max's feelings for Liz, so she reassured Liz about Max's love for her.

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shapeshifter, I think you have discovered the key to understanding fans' opinions about Roswell! :)

I didn't really see this as any great benevolence on her part, but rather a lack of interest. Outside of getting Michael and Isabel to the planet, which wasn't happening any time soon, the majority of the deal hinged on what happened with Max. She'd cross that bridge if she ever came to it.



I don't think her not killing Liz was again any benevolent favor on Tess' part. Liz dies, and Max is in perpetual mourning. Liz will always be the bright and shining love of his life, made even more so in death. Who wants to compete with a ghost? As to her mindwarping Max, that's possible, although he seemed to be aware when someone was messing with his head. And in Isabel's encounter with Tess, she talked about losing time. I suppose it could be done, but there seems to have been an awareness there that wasn't seen with the humans. That's just my take on those episodes from season one because, again, the writers were never all that clear on it.

Max and Liz had been broken up since the podchamber. Liz wasn't showing signs of relenting ... she'd left town for the summer, came back to get a new job and a new life, and she was pretty firm in her resolve. Why would Tess need to rock the boat? Max still pined for Liz, but Tess could continue to play the friend who was always there for him, and bide her time. Liz did Tess a favor by clearing out. And Tess' patience paid off when Max fell apart at the observatory.



That's an interesting idea. There's no indication in TEOTW that Alex even attempted it, if I remember right. If Alex was doing it to get Isabel back, I would think he would have told her right away. Decoding the book could take months, which would leave the playing field wide open for Grant to establish a relationship with Isabel. That's pretty risky for a guy in love ... to allow his rival all that time. If he was doing it for Isabel, he'd want her to know. What better way to re-establish a relationship than laboring together over the translation of the destiny book?



First of all, Tess held her own just fine for someone who was in such danger. She obliterated an entire contingent of skins in a ball of fire. She seemingly got rid of Lonnie and Rath without any problems either (assuming this, because the writers were never clear on exactly what happened to them). The girl had skills, that were honed for ten years by Nasedo. I'm one of the few who doesn't believe that she can't hold a mindwarp for two minutes before breaking into a sweat. Please. Nasedo trained her for ten years, so she ought to be able to do better than a two minute mindwarp.

So, she wants to leave. And, instead of simply asking Alex to decode the book, and maybe looking good in Max's eyes for suggesting it as a good idea (which it would have been) she forces him.



If that's Max's romantic interest, she's better off without him. She's always there when he's down, which he appreciates. He's floundering, and she allows him to have sex with her. He's having second thoughts and thinking about letting her down easy when she tells him that she's pregnant. They're together because of the baby, the worst possible reason to be in a relationship, because it will never be satisfying and never last. Max never told her he loved her, Liz was still the one he wanted. When Tess left Earth, there wasn't even a hint that Max was at all upset about it ... his only interest was in finding his son.



"You mindwarped me for two months while I decoded that silly book for you and now there's nothing left for you to mindwarp. You destroyed my mind! How could you do this to me?"

Alex was clearly in distress, and he was also very clear about the effects her mindwarps were having on him. Telling her that she destroyed his mind can't be much plainer. But, she continued to do it anyway. They call that depraved indifference (Law and Order reference).



"You kissed Liz!"

Max doesn't reply.

"Don't worry, you won't remember her where we're going."

That doesn't sound like someone who changed her mind.

So now she's the woman scorned, and she's going to make sure that Max gets turned over to the enemy. Or .. maybe this is what she was planning all along.



She'd been exposed, and she expected Max to just tell her it was alright ... it's okay that you killed our friend, someone Isabel loved. She expected Max to support her in the face of that?

For me, the indicator that Tess had truly changed her mind would have been for her to come clean right away with Max, Michael and Isabel ... no matter what the outcome for herself. Actually, after their first initial shock, the podsters would have probably realized that Tess was raised by a traitor and looked at how much courage it would have taken to reveal everything. If she would have given full details of the deal and what Kivar had in store for the aliens, I would have believed her change of heart. She didn't.

And if Tess was looking for a less dangerous life, the last place she should go would be Antar. In the company of Max, and carrying the heir to the throne, with absolutely no understanding of the planet, the politics, the loyalty of the people or even whom to trust, Antar was a whole lot more risky than Earth ever was. A good usurper has his mind on one thing, which is to get rid of the legitimate heir to the throne. That would be Max. He also solidifies his hold on the throne, which would have probably been through Max's son. Kivar would become regent and rule in Zan's stead. And should an unfortunate, but oh so timely, accident befall little Zan while Kivar is ruling on his behalf, O Well ... that's just the way it goes. No, if Tess was looking for a safe place for herself and her son, Antar definitely wasn't it.

Well, may as well post my thoughts on the show.
Started out with the lead plotline being the Max/Liz relationship, with sub plots around the other characters, and the where and why the 3 were there...so they follow that path, until someone decides they want it changed...so in comes new characters, and new main plot- the Destiny/Scifi theme.
So they start out the second season with this new main plot. Now it is my theory that if they had stayed the course with this plot, that the character of Liz would be pushed into the background, and The Royal Four would have all been front and center, for the rest of the run of the show.
It is my thought that this did not happen as JK couldn't handle the job of running a scifi based show, so the Destiny plot was to be faded out as the main plotline, along with a character brought in to be part of that plot, Tess. But JK still wanted to use some of his story ideas that went with the Destiny plot, Max/Tess relationship, and that is why we got those 6 episodes at the end of s2..get rid of Tess, the Granolith, both major plot elements of the Destiny theme.
Now season 3, that I call the "we have no clue what we are doing anymore" plotline, well lets just try to forget that one lol

As for the whole Tess evil discussion...first let me mention I started watching from the beginning of s2, and did not see s1 untill after s2 was over, hence my views on the show.
When the characters of Tess and Nasedo came onto the show, they were presented in away that the audience would not trust their intentions,as did the other characters, so the revelation that Tess was the 4th, and Nasedo the protector, would be more dramatic.
As mentioned in the earlier part of this post, my belief is that Max and Tess would have along run together, and that at this time there were no evil going on's behind the scenes. But with the dumping of the Destiny plot, TPTB figured make her evil and win back those who became disenchanted with the show, something which they failed at, as shown by the lost viewers after the first episode of S3.
So to sum this part of my post up..yes Tess killed Alex, yes Tess was going to sell out the other three, actions which could be called evil, but these did not come from the beginning of the characters run on the show, but after they dropped it's plotline in the latter half of s2.
This is why I disagree with those who say she was evil from the beginning, and also because it was shown to us over and over, that they had no long term plans for any of the characters, and changed them at a whim...

Some other people who began watching Roswell at the beginning of Season Two have expressed similar views to yours. :)

I, too, think that Tess was initially presented in a way that the audience would not trust her intentions.

People have said that originally, Season One was to have ended in an episode like the conclusion of Four-Square, in which Tess is revealed to be an alien like Max, Michael, and Isabel. It would have been a suspenseful and dramatic conclusion to the first season. (I'm glad Season One didn't end there!)

Like you, I think that Max and Tess could have had a long run together, with Liz telling the story. I was in doubt about how the story would go, though. I had seen Season One, and I believed that Liz and Max would be the main couple, barring any conditions that might prevent either actor in the roles from returning to make new episodes. So I also thought that Liz and Max were a good combination for continuing the story.

I think the role of Tess was introduced with the intention that her role would end. I don't think that the writers even intended for Tess and Max to be the main couple or an ongoing couple. I think Season Two, while presenting Tess favorably, also showed that Max hadn't wanted Liz to break up with him.

I like and admire the character of Tess very much. Having Tess as a person who was conditioned to think of herself as alien and who was raised to fear and distrust humans introduced the problems of different people trying to find common goals.

The episodes were so well done, that I could think of either outcome (Tess and Max as a couple, or Liz and Max as a couple) as possible and worthwhile.

At the conclusion of The End of the World, I didn't see how Liz and Max could get together again. Future Max and Liz also believed that Liz and Max would never marry. But the possibly of their getting back together was introduced, when Future Max stated that the future is to be determined. We create our own destiny.

Some viewers had definite expectations about what Roswell should be. Some fans wanted more romance, and some fans wanted more science fiction. Some fans wanted more about their favorite character or characters, and less about characters they disliked.

I think from the beginning, Roswell centered its story on Earth. I think it would be difficult to tell a story that included much about Antar and the other planets or the people there. I also think that fighting space aliens and/or visiting different planets already exist as themes in other television shows.

Once, I enjoyed reading science fiction. Later, reading about real life discoveries replaced my interest in science fiction.

Roswell's science fiction brought new ideas to me, and new things to think about.

I love the blend of romance and science fiction in Roswell. And to me, Roswell has more than romance and science fiction. Roswell has mystery and suspense, also. To me, all of the elements are amazingly well carried out in all three seasons! :)
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Those are both very interesting posts, Citrus and Dobson. I'll add my two cents here.

I don't know what the writers intended. Whether they had a firm plot outline from the beginning or they made it up as they went along, they wrote two equally intriguing plots.

The beginning with Pilot established the exploration of a romance between human and alien. First with Liz and Max, then supported with Maria and Michael and Isabel and Alex. That would have been enough to keep my interest. Scifi would have to have been included because you can't ignore the nature of three of your main characters. They would have needed to deal with it in some way.

Then they brought in the plot of long lost fourth alien appearing and throwing everything into chaos. After watching all of Roswell, that story arch appealed to me the most because it was so unusual.

I liked both stories but that is what it was to me, two stories. There was no way to keep Liz on as a voice over storyteller after making so much of Max's declaration that she was the one for him. That scene in the bus after Max got out of the White Room left no doubt where Max's heart was taking him. So Liz and Max had to end up together.

There was also no way to keep Tess in the picture once the truth became known about her previous ties to Max. A king and queen who loved each other but lost their kingdom and their lives only to be given a second chance in another world is a compelling story. There is no way Tess could be written in as accepting an ordinary life on Earth with anyone but the man she had loved across two lifetimes.

I don't think there was any way to satisfy the fans of both the Liz/Max romance and the Destiny theme. So they went with what most fans seemed to want.

If they intended Tess to be evil from the beginning then they did a very good job of making her appealling instead, giving her a human family. She and Kyle made as good a brother and sister as Max and Isabel. I see now though that this is a frequent plot device used on television, make you like someone, then reveal their hidden agenda wherein you are now suppose to hate them.

Since it has now been over two years since Roswell ended, I'm curious what other fans think is going on in their lives now. I know the show was ended with the idea that the fans could think of the characters of Roswell "out there somewhere" continuing on with their lives in some fashion.

I've read fanfics. I've read the book series. I've read what others say on the board but I'd still be interested in what others have to say.

I'm see Roswell as continuing with the same problem that was developed in EOTW. The aliens want something from Earth. They haven't been completely defeated. The second time line is running. Do they all head south like Sarah Conner in Terminator to prepare for the coming war or do they ignore FMAx's warning and place their hope in a possible different future? Do they find lasting happiness?

I know Liz said at the end of Graduation that she was happy but so do most newlyweds. Michael and Maria were left with a future together but Isabel and Kyle were both alone. What an interesting story it would be to drop in on the Roswellians at some point in the future to see what really happened.

:wave: Hi, Algieba! Happy holidays!! Any Hurricane Frances threat where you are?

I think the alien threat is ongoing, if any more story is told. I'd love more Roswell. Sometimes, I hope the characters wind surf, swim, sail, climb mountains, and do all the things people not caught up in war can do.

Possible threats--what a difficult way to live. I think people sometimes manage to find some happiness, even in the most difficult of times, at least, I hope so. :)

All the best to everyone.

Citrus. Hurricane Frances is causing the whole state of Florida a problem but I'm happily enjoying the time off from work. School was cancelled Friday so families could evacuate if they wanted to. Including Labor Day Monday, I have four days off. I was really getting behind on a lot of things so I'm grateful for the chance to catch up.

My area will get a lot of wind and rain before it's all over but so far it doesn't look like it will be a direct hit from the ocean. I don't mind hurricanes too much because you always have plenty of time to get out of their way.

The ocean is awesome. Huge waves. There are a few surfers that just can't resist the thrill of riding one but I feel sorry for the rescue crews who have to pull them out when they wipe out.

The Roswellians always seemed to have fun even with all the danger so I can picture them enjoying life to the fullest for now. I hope they get to see the Northern Lights. That's something I've never done.

Algieba, I'll have to think some more about where they are now.
Good description of the 2 plot lines.
About that...
Actually, I think the scene at the end of Tess, Lies, & Videotape would have made a great place to end season one. I still remember--moments before that scene in which she fixes the Buddha statue--getting a phone call from a teenage daughter (who was visiting my mom) and saying to her, "Oh! Tess is an alien!" It would have left room for her to be revealed as either good or evil at the beginning of season 2. That would have prevented a lot of the Tess/Liz wars among the fans--which could have been good for ratings, but obviously didn't pan out that way.

And just don't get me started on the way the symbolism of the statue would have fit. LOL
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.
. Yes, that's why it would have been better (in my mind with my own personal 20/20 hindsight) to have ended the first season just as the 4th was revealed.
BTW, about what was intended, I've read (I think a Katims interview) that he (Katims) wanted to have Tess pregnant (and I think blast off) at the end of season one, but the network said no. Perhaps that would have also been a better place to push the pause button between seasons.

In the original Roswell High books, there was a 4th alien, and a 5th, but no female rival for Liz to deal with. They used other sci fi issues to come between her and Max--though there was a boy alien that distracted Liz while Max was not himself. It's interesting how a rival guy is more easily accepted by the audience than a girl. Maybe because guys 'just' duel to the death, while one girl is always left bereft. And/or, the jilted guy moves on a bit more easily.

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Star Trek, Star Gate and most other shows with aliens used the alien sense of "other" as a vehicle to deal with issues of race, class, disability, or similar types of "otherness" that last throughout a person's life, whereas Roswell used the alien otherness to describe teen alienation.

That is the the one consistancy that followed in both plot lines.

Thanks, Shapeshifter, for the new thread; and for quoting my intro from the beginning of the previous thread. As we've seen, it's important not to be excessively annoying, or easily annoyed! :lol:
Sorry I haven't been here as much, but I'll try to answer problems as I recall them. (I miss having the whole thread in a window to review!)

First, about Liz/Lilith: Sonya E. wrote:
That's a very interesting theory Reggie, but what do you think of S3 when Liz acted like Tess and became Max's doormat?

In the third season, I think that JK was trying to re-make Liz into the kind of wife that JK would like for himself (identifying with Max). So, she was being turned into a cookie-baking Stepford wife. Didn't we all recognise that Liz wasn't herself from the beginning of S3?

As for the old Tess: Good or Evil fight: Remember, Ron Moore arrived long after Tess came onscreen; so he had nothing to do with creating Tess, only with what he and JK turned her into. His opinions on her origins aren't relevent. Also, since Tess was developed by Thania St. John, only she can say whether Tess was really supposed to be Evil Incarnate, a misguided but good Podster, or whatever. Again, we recognise that JK has turned more than one character bad, so that is a possibility.

Personally, I see the Liz/Tess dilemma as symptomatic of Max's identity dillema: Is he a normal earthling boy, or a powerful alien king? Something like that fits in nicely with the show's original theme of teen alien-ation. I believe that would require both alternatives to be valid; thus both Liz and Tess are Good, albeit in different ways.

As to the Hardings being "coy" about who who they were, it was really only a few episodes. I'm willing to let the producers stretch it out, for drama's sake. And after all, Mr. H had no idea how he and Tess would be received by the other three. He's got to be a bit paranoid normally anyway; why in this one case wouldn't he be? I believe that their plan was to get Max & Co. to remember them from before; thus giving them the "credentials" to be trusted now.

Lacking time, I'll post more later. :wave:

Having watched Roswell since the Pilot, going through the advent of Tess when it was presented for the first time, and not coming in during Season 2, my perception of her and Nasedo is different.

Nasedo was introduced as a murdering shapeshifter. Max was totally against contacting him, saying that it didn't make sense to try and find someone who could in all possibility do them harm. After Michael sent the signal at the Library, the first time I saw Nasedo was him walking away after throwing a surveillance photo of them into a fire. To me, that inspired menace, not good feelings.

Nasedo and Tess held all the cards. They knew that the podsters were looking for them. The signal in Frazier Woods was responded to in good faith by Michael, who was eager to find them. Heck, as a shapeshifter, Nasedo could have been one of the pine trees in the woods, right next to the signal that the podsters found, watching them obliterate all evidence of the signal. And I say that because I remember him having shapeshifted himself to being part of the rock wall of the podchamber. Unless Nasedo was a total idiot, he had enough surveillance (an entire boxful) of Max, Michael and Isabel ... going as far back as Valentine's Day ... to know who they were. Good intentions would have them contacting the podsters and revealing themselves right away, up front and honest. But, they didn't do that.

I watched Nasedo and Tess play them. They were manipulative, and were amused as hell by the podsters trying to get a handle on who they were, all the while keeping their identities secret for weeks. Tess wheedling information out of Max's mother was smary, her telling Isabel that the signs were all around her was rather disturbing, considering the fact that Isabel told Max and Michael later that she felt she'd lost time.

So, when the end of season 2 came along, and Tess was revealed to be evil and working against the podsters, along with Nasedo, I could easily believe it. I saw her before she was all sweetness and light and butter wouldn't melt in her mouth. Having found out that she worked for Kivar, all the game playing and manipulations and toying with Max, Michael and Isbael of season 1 made sense to me. It fit. Not the best writing or plot direction, but it at least fit.

My thinking about Nasedo and Tess as first introduced in Season One is more along the lines of what you write, Seive. However, I differ in my opinion about Tess, from the moment the audience is told that Tess goes against Nasedo, by taking Max, Michael, and Isabel to the podchamber. There, to me, Tess is clearly working against Nasedo, who wants to keep Max, Michael, and Isabel in the dark about themselves.

Nasedo is shown as working alone to get Max captured. He no longer trusted Tess, after Tess confronted Nasedo about killing people. So the audience knows that Tess hadn't known that Nasedo had killed people, and the audience knows that Nasedo knows that Tess trusts Max, instead of Nasedo.

When Nasedo, disguised as Max, took Liz, the real Max and Tess nearly spotted them, which shows that Nasedo hadn't confided in Tess. Tess wasn't part of Nasedo's plan to get Max captured. (Nasedo wasn't trying to kill Pierce, as Tess thought. Nasedo could have killed Pierce as easily as he killed the agent on the street in downtown Roswell.)

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Tess lacked any objective way of knowing who was friend and who was foe. Nasedo raised Tess, so he seemed to be her friend. Tess loved Max, so she hoped that Max would be her friend. Nasedo, though, had told Tess that Max was her foe. Max, because he wanted to get back with Liz, refused to be friends with Tess.


We know that Max turned to Tess, after Liz went to bed with Kyle.

We know that Tess could mindwarp Max. (Max thought the baby was dying, because of Earth's atmosphere, but the baby wasn't harmed by Earth's atmosphere. So we know that Tess could mindwarp Max.)

We know that Tess could mindwarp Michael. Michael thought that he had figured out the cave symbols, but he hadn't. Michael burning pieces of rope on a lawn in Roswell long after the alien symbol was left in Frasier Woods showed Nasedo that Tess could mindwarp Michael.

We know that Tess could mindwarp Isabel. Tess mindwarped Isabel to think that a man carried Tess away, screaming.

So, in the previous timeline, Tess, if she had wanted to carry out Nasedo's deal with Kivar, would have gotten rid of Liz, and then mindwarped Max to think that Liz left town with another guy. Tess would then have Max's child, mindwarp Max and Isabel to think that their Antarian mother needed them on Antar, and that Michael was needed, too. So Tess could have carried out what Kivar wanted and needed, if she had wanted to, in either timeline.

Tess didn't get rid of Liz in either timeline. Tess didn't mindwarp Max and Isabel to think that their Antarian mother needed them on Antar, because Tess really wanted Max to want to return to Antar with her. Tess loved Max.

Kivar needed Michael and Isabel, as well as Max and a Royal lineal child with Antarian blood. Otherwise, if anything happened to the child and Isabel and Michael were still alive, the Seal of Antar would pass on to Michael, or Isabel, or Isabel's child, if she had a child. (The Seal may have bypassed Isabel, because she was incapacitated, unconscious, and near death, shortly after Max died.)

If the Seal passed on to Michael, or Isabel, or Isabel's child, when Kivar lacked control over any of them, then any of the three might mount a successful revolt against Kivar. So Kivar needed control over all the Royals, and their children.

Tess didn't mindwarp Michael to think that there was an approaching enemy, in order to convince him to get on the Granilith with the others. Nor did she suppress Max, Michael, and Isabel's memories of Michael deciding to stay on Earth. Tess didn't try to get Michael to go to Antar, even though Kivar wanted and needed Michael, too, because Michael could receive the Seal and could mount a revolt against Kivar.

Tess didn't get rid of Maria or mindwarp Michael to think that Maria slept with another guy, in order to get Michael away from Maria.

Tess didn't kill Kyle, in order to keep Kyle from talking.

Tess wasn't evil. She wasn't planning to go to Kivar. She didn't carry out Nasedo's deal with Kivar.

Until Tess saw the flash of Max and Liz kissing, as Max kissed her (Tess), while Tess was pregnant with Max's child, Tess loved Max.

Tess didn't turn to Kivar, until after Max rejected her in the Granilith Chamber. Then Tess went to Kivar, because Max, in his anger, had wanted to kill Tess.

Tess really loved Max, and had hoped that he would want to go home to Antar, too.


Tess had been conditioned by Nasedo to think of herself as Antarian. Max and Isabel had been conditioned by two loving human parents to think of themselves as humans. Even though they were aliens, Max and Isabel could pass for human. They both thought of Earth as home. Tess thought of Antar as home.



Tess didn't expect Max to forgive her for Alex's death. That's why Tess hadn't told Max or the others what had happened to Alex.

In the Granilith chamber, Tess hoped that Max would stand by her, even though her mindwarp had resulted in Alex's death. She told Max the truth about Alex's death, even though she could have lied or mindwarp-suppressed Max's memory about what Liz and Kyle said.

I think Max might have forgiven Tess, especially since, only hours earlier, Max and Liz took part in the premeditated murder of “Leanna'/Jennifer Coleman, which was averted only because Jennifer pricked her finger.

However, Max thought that Tess thought killing Alex didn't matter, because she said it didn't matter. For those words, Max couldn't forgive Tess for being responsible for his friend Alex's death. Max thought that Tess had wantonly killed Alex to keep Alex from talking. He didn't stop to consider that Tess hadn't killed Kyle to keep Kyle from talking.

Max didn't know that Tess cared about Alex. He didn't know that Tess sent flowers to Alex's parents in the name of the Olsons.

In the past, Tess had wanted to teach Max about their home planet. She didn't remember much about her past life, and neither did Max. But Tess did know some things, which evidently Nasedo told her.

For example, she probably knew that Max had been named Zan in his previous life. She painted a pink Z on Kyle's bedroom wall, which I think stood for Zan.



Tess also probably knew at least some of the Antarian language, because Alex was able to decode the book. Without a sort of Rosetta stone or some knowledge of the language, I think it would be virtually impossible to decode the book, even with the best of computers.

Nasedo raised Tess. He taught her many things about the Special Unit. He convinced Tess that the Special Unit was after them, and that they had had narrow escapes from the Special Unit. Nasedo lied to Tess about the Special Unit being after them. The Special Unit didn't know anything about Tess or Ed Harding. Nasedo controlled Tess through fear.

Tess wanted more than anything to go to Antar, her home, especially after the Skins tried to kill her, and after Lonnie and Rath tried to get into her head, and after Tess realized that Liz lied to her to get her to save her (Liz) and Max.

Nasedo probably had taught Tess some things about her home planet. He could have lied to her, but he would be unsure whether or not she might remember things on her own. So, many of the things he told her were probably true.

Nasedo lied to Tess, though, about Kivar being Tess' ally. Kivar was Tess' enemy. He had killed Tess in her previous life. Kivar wanted to kill her child, Zan. Tess fled Antar.

In the Granilith chamber, after Liz and Kyle told Max that Tess killed Alex, Max asked Tess if she had killed Alex. Tess wanted Max to stand by her, even though she had killed Alex. So she told him the truth.

If Max had stood by her, then Tess would have been willing to forgive Max for kissing Liz, while Tess was pregnant with Max's child. In Tess' mind, if Max had stood by her, even though she had unintentionally killed Alex, Max would have proven to Tess that he loved her. Tess genuinely wanted Max to love her. When Max didn't stand by Tess, Tess believed that Max was her enemy and Kivar was her ally, as Nasedo had told Tess.



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Thanks Reggie, but Liz stopped acting like herself since the end of S2. But, I loved the guts that Liz had to prove that Alex was murdered by an alien, even if she didn't have enough evidence. I really missed the strong, intelligent, and independent Liz of S1 before she received that lobotomy that they gave her.

JK must really have a low opinion of women, he already had Tess being Max's doormat and stroking his ego to get what she wanted. Then in S3, he had Liz losing her backbone and becoming Max's doormat to help him find his illegitimate son. I was glad when Liz finally called Max on his crap in Ch-Ch-Changes, but by that time it was too little, too late and the damage was already done. If JK thought his version of Max was what every woman dreamed of, then I must have missed something along the way. S2 and S3 Max was a mean, selfish, self-centered ass, that had his "cake and he ate it too."

I'm sorry you didn't like Roswell, Sonia E. and anyone else who dislikes Roswell Season Two and Season Three.

I love all three seasons of Roswell! :) I especially enjoyed seeing how Liz handled the challenges she faced in life.


:) That could be it. Liz was happy, once Tess was dead. (I was sad, though, as I would have been had Liz or any other character I love died.)

I suppose that's why some ex-wives hate their former husband's new wife, and some new wives hate their husband's ex-wife. The others are still alive for them to hate!

I feel bad, though, when kids are involved in the situation. Hate seems so destructive all around.

Algieba, I'm happy to hear that, despite Hurricane Frances, you've been enjoying your time off from work! Equipment trucks and crews from our city are headed to Florida to help restore power there. (Many other places are sending help, too.) Hope you can someday see the Northern Lights!


screencap from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries

Sometimes, people don't realize their effect on other people. I think of Liz after Alex's death.


In Liz's case, Liz knew that Alex had been alive in the previous timeline. Kyle subconsciously knew that Alex hadn't died in a car accident. Kyle supported Liz's views about Alex's death. Liz could have asked Kyle to help her investigate Alex's death, but she didn't.

Liz could have asked Max, Michael, Isabel, and Maria to help her, but Liz seemed to want them to rally around her, rather than ask anyone to help her, at first. I think perhaps Liz was hoping someone would reach out to her and offer her help. Instead, Liz alienated people who were her friends.

As Liz's investigation failed to yield results, Liz realized that she needed help. She had rejected Max's attempt to talk to her, after Max failed to heal Alex. At the gathering following Alex's death, Liz had rejected Max's help in looking at the facts in Alex's death. (She refused to look at the information that Hanson supplied Valenti, which Valenti passed on to Max.)

Liz asked Sean for help. She got Sean and herself into trouble. The information Liz obtained with Sean from the school didn't help her, so she continued investigating other things in Alex's life.

Max heard about the school break-in. Max wanted everyone to be safe, so he talked to Liz. He told Liz he was willing to consider that Alex had been murdered, if Liz were willing to consider that Alex's death might have been a suicide.

In the scene, Liz had an opportunity to gain Max's help. Max had reached out to her, because he cared. The two of them could have teamed up and worked together, as they had in the past. However, Liz didn't want to consider the possibility that Alex might have committed suicide, because that might mean that she had been parly responsible for Alex's death, by helping to change the previous timeline. Only if Liz could prove that an alien killed Alex could Liz relieve her conscience over her part in Alex's death. So, Liz rejected Max's offer to meet her halfway in finding the truth about Alex's death.

Liz asked Maria for help, and Maria helped Liz. Maria, with the help of someone knowledgeable in computers, learned where Alex had really been, instead of Sweden. Maria continued to investigate things with Liz, and Michael joined in the investigation also.

Sometimes, people find that life can improve with the help of others.

Michael wanted to keep people uninvolved in his problems, when Hank abused him. Michael rejected help from Isabel and Max. Max reached out to Michael, and showed Michael that he and Isabel cared about Michael. When Michael opened the gift Isabel and Max gave him, he realized that Isabel and Max really cared about him. With the help of others, Michael was able to better his situation. :)





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screencaps from Momo's Roswell

Nasedo was angry that Tess brought them there because he worried about the Special Unit finding the podchamber. He knew that the camera he found in his house was FBI issue, which meant that the Special Unit was very close. The podchamber was the only safe place, because it's location was unknown up until then. With Pierce after Max, they could have easily been followed as Tess crawled up Max to wake him up, told him that she would tell him everything, and then had him drive out to the podchamber in the middle of the night when the Special Unit could have followed them. It was careless, and I'm not surprised Nasedo was ticked.

He was probably surprised that Tess knew some things that he'd kept secret, and that she didn't consider him family, but as a protector it was never his job to be touchy/feely. Tess herself said that Nasedo wasn't human, with none of the emotions humans have. Like everything else about being a protector, it might have surprised him that Tess showed more trust in Max than him, but I don't think it bothered him much.

Nasedo wasn't trying to get Max captured. He really was trying to draw out the Special Unit ... killing one of their own, calling in where they could find the body, sending the signal to lure them to him, etc. He took Liz for collateral. He told her that Pierce wanted her too, because he knew that Max healed her. The Special Unit would have been just as eager to get ahold of her as they would have Max. All those tests they could run on a human that had had contact with the alien. Nasedo had no intention of being captured. If he couldn't kill Pierce, he would use Liz as a bargaining chip, because he knew Pierce would want to study her. He seems to have been perfectly willing to turn her over in exchange for his own freedom, because he told her she'd come in handy in terms of his survival. With his lack of human emotions, what he didn't count on was Max following them, because when Liz told him Max would, he asked her why in the world would Max do that?

IF Nasedo was trying to get Max captured, why turn around and tell Liz that he had to save Max now. Why was he already in Eagle Rock by the time the rest of them tried to rescue Max? Talk about spinning your wheels.




Tess didn't care about friends, never showing any interest in them. She had no use for anyone other than Max, Michael and Isabel. Tess told Max that Nasedo had no human emotions, so I'm sure she never considered him a friend.

Tess was in love with the idea of Max, not knowing him at all. She heard a romantic story, and she took it from there. She struggled with memory techniques just to get the impression or feeling that she loved Max.



I'm not sure how Michael sending a signal at the Library is somehow Tess mindwarping him. That confuses me.



When Tess revealed to Max who she was, there was very little time that passed before Nasedo kidnapped Liz and forced Pierce to find him. After they heard the message from their mother, Liz removed herself from the situation. Tess didn't have to mindwarp anyone. All she had to do was let things play out and bide her time.



If this is true, then why bother to go to Antar at all? She had Max's child, Max was planning on moving in with her, probably more for the sake of the baby than anything else, but still. They would have been a family. To get him away from Liz? If he has the granilith, he has a sure way back to earth if it doesn't work out on Antar, so that was no guarantee.

Again, Antar was no safe place for them. They had absolutely no knowledge of the planet, the politics, who was loyal to Zan and who wasn't ... nothing. They would probably have to be on their guard on earth, but nothing like landing on Antar (maybe in the throne room itself) and trying to wing it from there.

The deal was get pregnant and bring them back. Up until Michael backed out at the very last minute, things were going according to plan. Max was the one who let Michael off the hook, and watched him walk away. Just because she didn't mindwarp him at that second doesn't mean she didn't still have time to do it before the clock ran out.



Tess told Max that he wouldn't remember Liz where they were going, rather smugly too. Tess knew all along how Max felt about Liz, and that he didn't feel that way about her. She could hardly have been surprised that Max saw Liz before he left the planet, and kissed her.



For all of Tess' conditioning, she had a very nice home life with the sheriff and Kyle. She had a chance to experience human emotions and a family setting. The sheriff and Kyle would have done anything for her, and in the end she turned it down. What they offered freely, she didn't want. She was also making inroads with Max. Liz was staying away from him, and was actually dating Sean. Why bother to leave for some planet that she had to have known was hardly safe for them.



The fact remains that Tess' actions killed Alex. He was very clear that what she was doing was destroying his mind, and she did it anyway. The fact that she sent flowers impresses me not at all. And she coupled her rather lame "I'm sorry" with the sentence that it really didn't matter. Once it came out that she used Alex to decode the book, and destroyed his mind in the process, there would have been no easy forgiveness for her. That went on for months. Beyond Max finding out that Tess' actions killed him, he had to have remembered trying to heal Alex in the ambulance, and the awful memory of the condition of his body. Knowing that Tess stood there while he tried to do it would be a horrible thing to think about. Tess thinking that Max would stand by her after that is amazing in it's boldness.

Tess didn't kill Kyle, but she mindwarped him. Considering what happened to Alex, that might well have been a death sentence for him, if they weren't leaving the planet.



Tess recognized the special unit when they were in the jeep, going to rescue Liz. The sheriff was stopped by the side of the road and Max wanted to stop too, because he thought Liz might be there. Tess told him clearly the men with him were special unit, and to keep going. That indicates some knowledge of them beyond Nasedo's stories.



Again, Earth was a much safer place for her than Antar. She knows Kivar is on the throne, knows that Max is practically a dead man walking, and that there is a deal out there for the demise of Max, Michael and Isabel. Yet, she's going to go there anyway, knowing next to nothing about Antar beyond Nasedo's stories. If she's looking for a safe place for herself and her child, Antar isn't it. As she found out:



Tess expecting Max to stand by her after revealing her part in Alex's death, as an indication that he loved her, was incredibly bold. The fact that she told Max he wouldn't remember Liz where they were going was an indication to me that she might have been a little peeved, but not much. Unless Tess was blind, she had to have known that Max didn't love her, and still loved Liz.

For all of Tess' claims to love Max, she never clued him in that there was a deal for his head. With all her claims of loving him, she never let him know that Nasedo was a traitor. Between the time she showed Max the podchamber, up until Nasedo died, there were months and months where she could have clued him in ... if she loved him and was so worried about him and all. She never did.

Thank you for the picture of the Northern Lights, Citrus. Someday I'll see them in person.

A lot of places in Florida are harder hit by the hurricane than where I am. We're sending police officers to help other places. It's great to know that we all pull together when the need is there.

We're having tornadoes and high winds and rain. One hit a home only 500 feet from my sister's house. It destroyed some cars but no one was hurt. School still isn't back in session. My power was out for about 48 hours. I had a good book I was trying to finish last night so I read by flashlight.

Rather than try to refute the points you and Sieve are making about Tess, I just want to say, I liked her very much. To have her turn into the evil schemer that she was made into in Departure is hard for me to accept.

Tess seemed to be an intelligent person. Why would she swallow some story from Nasedo about Kivar being her friend? She finds out from the hologram in Destiny that Kivar killed her genetic donor, Ava. He killed Zan, Vilandra, Rath and probably many who were loyal to them. If he wants Tess to produce an heir, what use would he have for her once she's done that? She could produce another heir and become a threat to the throne so he would have to get rid of her.

Nothing she knows points to Kivar as someone she can trust. She's found out that Nasedo has lied to her, not telling her about the humans he has killed. How can she be sure of anything Nasedo says once she knows he has lied to her about something as serious as murder?

For her to make the statement in Departure that Kivar is not her enemy is stupid. If he's not her enemy, why were his minions, the Skins, trying to kill her? Tess found out that Nicholas, a Skin, was working with Kivar. Nicholas tied her to a post and tortured her (along with the other royals). Tess attacked Nicholas, Kivar's henchman, and the other Skins with a fireball trying her best to kill all of them.

Whittaker tortured Tess. Whittaker was a Skin. We don't know what Whittaker told Tess while she was interrogating her but wouldn't Tess have threatened Whittaker that harming her would anger Kivar, the ruler of the planet that Whittaker was trying to return to. Wouldn't it have occurred to Tess that Kivar's so-called "friends" were not treating her in a very friendly manner?

Let's add it up for Tess.

Kivar killed you in a previous life. Now, supposedly, he is going to let you live if you betray the others. This is all according to Nasedo who you have subsequently found out has been deceiving you.

Kivar's followers, the Skins, attempt to kill you and the other royals. If Kivar wants you to bring Max, Michael and Isabel back to Antar, why would the Skins, his followers, be trying to kill any of you? Are you at this point beginning to distrust Kivar? Or are you thinking perhaps that the Skins have their own agenda? If you go back to Antar, who will you trust? There are more Skins on Antar. If the Skins want you dead on Earth won't they want you dead on Antar?

In Wipeout, Nicholas, Kivar's loyal lackey, tortures you and threatens you. You react by attempting to kill all the Skins (guess by now you aren't taking any chances on trusting Kivar's followers even though later you're going to get on a spaceship and fly right into the arms of their boss).

Does it not occur to you that your "friend" Kivar has rather cavalierly risked your life by sending this force out to kill the royals and yet apparently has made no provisions for safeguarding your life in any way?

You supposedly have a deal with Kivar to return to Antar with the other royals plus produce an heir to the throne. To fulfill this deal you need to stay alive and keep the others alive. So why are Kivar's Skin loyalists trying to kill you?

I don't think Tess would even need to be intelligent to figure out that someone, maybe everyone, is trying to deceive her.Kivar killed her once. His followers are trying to kill her again. Her protector kills with no conscience and lies to her about it. Why would Tess trust anyone at this point with her life and the life of her son?

:wave: Hi, Algieba! I'm glad you are safe! I can just picture you reading a book by flashlight. :)

:wave: Hi, Seive! You and I are in agreement that Nasedo intended harm to Max, Michael, and Isabel. You and I agree that Nasedo plotted to get a baby from Max turned over to Kivar, so Kivar could have a royal heir he could control.

Nasedo knew the Special Unit intimately. He was a shapeshifter who could impersonate anyone. He used the Special Unit to find the missing Royals, Max, Michael, and Isabel.

You and I agree that if Nasedo had wanted to help Max, Michael, and Isabel, he would have introduced himself to them. We also point to Nasedo burning the photograph of Max, Michael, and Isabel as a signal that he intended them harm.

Nasedo knew all about the Special Unit. He knew the heads of the Special Units. He had murdered several of them, and he could have killed Pierce just as easily as he had killed the other heads of the Special Unit. Nasedo knew when Topolsky had escaped and gone to Roswell with the second orb. Nasedo knew everything the Special Unit knew.

Nasedo didn't need Liz for collateral to kill Pierce. He didn't need to draw out the Special Unit to kill Pierce. Nasedo knew exactly who to call at the Special Unit. He knew who the agents were by sight. He could impersonate any of them. He knew the Special Unit intimately. He could have easily killed Pierce, almost any time or any place.

Nasedo took Liz, because he intended to frame Max for Liz's murder. Nasedo had gotten Michael thrown in jail, but Michael was freed. Nasedo needed to get Max captured immediately, because Tess was turning away from Nasedo and towards Max. Nasedo had to control the situation that was getting out of hand.

Nasedo could have stayed at the gas station waiting for Pierce to come. He could have shapeshifted into someone else, gotten close enough to Pierce when Pierce came to investigate, and then killed Pierce, just like he killed the agent on the street in downtown Roswell. It was unnecessary for Nasedo to go to the carnival to kill Pierce. Killing Pierce wasn't Nasedo's objective. A new agent would replace Pierce. Killing Pierce at the carnival would accomplish nothing.

Nasedo's goal was for Max to be captured.


When Max showed up at the carnival, things were progressing as Nasedo had hoped. Whether or not Max came, Nasedo had framed Max for the silver handprint murders. Max's image and Liz's were captured on the gas station security camera, as Nasedo knew they would be. Nasedo had gone to the Sheriff's office to ascertain that they could receive transmitted photos. Both the Sheriff and Pierce followed the clues Nasedo arranged for them.

When Max showed up in the mirror maze at the same time Nasedo was in the maze, Nasedo had to get away from Max, because Nasedo had to do what Max told him to do. So, Nasedo demanded that Max leave. Nasedo left Max, rather than stand by his side. Nasedo ran into Liz. He pretended to her that he was Max. He saw that Max had been captured, as he wanted, so he left the maze with Liz. He hurried away from the maze with Liz, checking to see who might notice him with Liz. Once Nasedo was outside the maze with Liz, after Max had been captured, Nasedo could no longer murder Liz. Someone might have seen them together, outside the maze, when the real Max couldn't have killed Liz, because he was held by the agents. Nasedo couldn't risk the Special Unit thinking that someone other than Max had committed the silver handprint murders. So, Nasedo couldn't kill Liz then.

Nasedo wanted Max captured, and Max was captured.

Nasedo could have gotten Max freed from the old military hospital by himself. He knew exactly where in the complex Max was. Max had been left alone overnight. Nasedo knew he could get through the security door using an agent's hand. Max was exactly where Nasedo wanted Max to be.

Isabel was able to find out where Max was being held. Isabel, Tess, and Michael showed up to rescue Max, which Nasedo hadn't wanted. Nasedo was forced to pretend to be rescuing Max. After Michael and Nasedo reached Max, Michael pocketed the orbs and helped Max to walk. Michael insisted that Nasedo go with them. Nasedo refused. Nasedo wanted both Max and Michael to be captured, so he stayed behind. He didn't immediately kill Pierce. When Pierce came out of the mindwarp, Nasedo chatted with Pierce, rather than immediately murder Pierce.

NASEDO (standing next to Pierce, as Pierce comes out of his trance): Are you all right, sir? You were in here a long time. We thought we'd come check.
PIERCE: Where's the prisoner.

Nasedo stayed behind, because he didn't want to be with Max or Michael.

Max and Michael were nearly captured as they left the white room, when they encountered agents, who demanded to know what Michael was doing. Michael authoritatively told the agents, “Pierce's orders. I've got to get the prisoner out of here. They need help inside. Go. Now!' Except for Michael's quick thinking, he and Max would have been captured on the spot.

Nasedo wasn't rescuing Max. Nasedo wanted Max and Michael captured. Then Nasedo would drug Tess and Isabel and make them prisoners in the old military hospital, also. Nasedo, the shapeshifter, could become Pierce. He would order samples taken from both Max and Michael and impregnate Tess and Isabel with Max or Michael's reproductive cells.

By keeping the Royal Four captive in the Special Unit, Nasedo could wait for years, if necessary, until Tess or Isabel produced a lineal Royal heir or heirs with Antarian blood. Thereafter, Max would be killed and the Seal of Antar would pass on to his child or Isabel's child, and Kivar would have an heir or heirs he could control. The heir would have the power to bring people back to life from near death. Kivar could have his own life span lengthened indefinitely, by the healing powers of the Royal heir. Kivar would also be able to legitimatize his rule.

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Algieba, if I understand what you're asking, I think you are wondering how Tess could possibly trust or believe anything Nasedo ever told her about Kivar, once Whitaker and Nicholas had attacked her.

Since Whitaker and Nicholas attacked Tess, she knew they were enemies. Because they were enemies, Tess had reason to distrust anything they told her. Tess had no reason to believe that they were working for Kivar, because they attacked her. In Tess' mind, if they had been working for Kivar, they should have protected her and Max, so Max and Tess would produce a royal heir for Kivar. Tess believed that Nasedo had protected her, so she also believed that anyone aligned with Nasedo and Kivar would also protect her, rather than attack her.

The Skins had been looking for the Royal Four. So, they were unaware that Nasedo had found them. The Skins may not have known that Kivar wanted a Royal heir. Evidently, the Skins' mission was to take over Earth. The Skins may have been told to hold the Royals for Kivar, which explains why they used their force field against Max and Tess.

Isabel, on the other hand, feared that Whitaker was telling the truth, when Whitaker told her that she had loved Kivar when she was Vilandra and had betrayed everyone. What Whittaker told Isabel was partly true. So even though Isabel lacked conscious memory of her past life, she believed that Whitaker may have been truthful.

I think Roswell is partly about figuring out which people to believe and trust. :)

I agree, Citrus, that a lot of the time Roswell was about who to believe and trust. I just think that Tess was intelligent enough to pick up on the discrepancy between what Nasedo told her Kivar wanted and what Kivar's advance guard on Earth was doing to her.

Even if you give Kivar the benefit of the doubt and say he didn't intend for the Skins to torture or kill Tess, I would think the monumental incompetence of Kivar would be evident to Tess. The Skins were working for Kivar. Nicholas represented Kivar at the summit. Not being able to control those who are under your leadership ought to have made Tess suspect that Kivar was not to be relied upon.

I don't think I've ever gone into a lot of detail about Max and his broken relationship with Liz. What I see in him is something I don't quite understand. Why did he continue to reject being with Liz if he still loved her? Did her infidelity make her into someone he couldn't love or respect?

I understand that he believed she had been unfaithful to him. It didn't matter to him that she wasn't committed to him at the time. He had told her in Destiny that he loved her, would always love her and nothing would ever change that. Even when she told him she wanted to be in love with boys and be safe and have children who would be safe, he wouldn't give her up. If ever there was someone in love it was Max.

After he discovered Liz and Kyle together, he felt betrayed. He told her he had to stay away from her because he was still trying to hold on to what they had. He told her he couldn't trust her when he left for New York.

Later, after she saves his life, he tells her he wants to be friends again. He continues to go to her with his problems. He goes to midnight services at Christmas not because he believed in God but, as he said, because he believed in her. Nothing seems to have changed except Liz is no longer a virgin. She chose to be with someone else instead of him.

He still loves her and yes, Seive, Tess knows that. He tells Tess in OTM that he doesn't know what he feels for Liz but Tess points out that their love is what Tess and Max use to have. Tess knows that at this point, she is not Max's first choice. But how many people hang on to being second best hoping that things will change? Plenty that I know of and often things do change.

Here's where I get lost on Max's feelings. By the time of VLV and HOM, Max is obviously not happy without Liz. The feelings he's always had for her are still there aren't they? He seeks her out to talk with her. He trusts her. He believes in her. He still thinks she's beautiful. He still wants to dance with her. He has a flash of the two of them getting married and looking happy. He wants to go to the Prom with her.

Either he feels he no longer loves her as his soulmate or he cannot or will not allow himself to be with her because of her supposed relationship with Kyle. Which is it?

Liz makes it very clear while they are dancing at the prom that she is and has been in terrible pain because she has been so afraid that Max will remember Tess and remember his love for her. She can't say it any clearer than that if she's trying to tell him how much she loves him and how devastated she would be to lose him. If Max loved her, now would be the time to forgive her and tell her he loves her.

Yet Max doesn't respond. He doesn't tell her that he loves her and that no matter how much he might care about Tess, she, Liz, is still his destiny. Why?!!!!! I don't get it. Is Max so unable to forgive Liz's infidelity that he doesn't really love her anymore? Because he sure does change his tune real quick in Departure when he finds out that Liz never slept with Kyle. Is that what this is all about? Is Max's love conditional on the loyalty of the person he is with? Is there no place in his heart for forgiveness?

I agree with you, Seive, that Tess would have to have been incredibly bold to think Max would forgive her and take her side after he found out about Alex's death.

I think, though, that she knew what his reaction would be and that's why she never tried to tell him what had happened. She had seen how quickly Max abandoned Liz when he believed she was unfaithful to him. Tess knew Max loved Liz and yet she saw how Max hardened himself against her despite his feelings for her. Tess was observant. She knew what Max would do. Just as she knew that saying she and Zan were linked would keep Max from killing her. She knew Max well.

I think, if I am interpreting the story correctly, we are suppose to believe that Max has always loved Liz but her supposed infidelity was an insurmountable obstacle to any relationship other than friendship. When Max finds out there never was any infidelity he turns back to Liz and now wants her back.

Since I find that interpretation quite harsh on the part of Max, especially since there are so many times that Liz ends up having to forgive Max for various things he does, I lean toward a different interpretation. I know most of you won't agree with me because you dislike Tess so but I think Max did begin remembering Tess and that he loved her. He didn't respond to Liz at the prom because she was right. He did love Tess. And Max believed that Tess was loyal to him.

But then Tess betrayed him too so back he went to Liz.

Although Liz may have thought that the problem between Max and her was for Max to forgive her for going to bed with Kyle, the problem for Max also was for him to believe that Liz might accept him.

When Max returned from the airport in Las Vegas to dance with Liz, he told her of his vision of them marrying each other.

For Liz, their dancing together in Las Vegas may have seemed like a new beginning. For Max, in contrast, Liz's failure to say anything about his vision of them marrying indicated to him that Liz was only interested in him as a friend.

After Las Vegas, Brody set Max and Tess together, with their hands bound behind them. Liz entered and saw them. Liz may have thought that Max was choosing Tess, since he and Tess were together in the UFO Center, after Max had danced with Liz in Las Vegas. Liz didn't know that Tess had stopped by the Center on her own. In the Center, Liz treated Max as though she cared more about Sean than she did about Max. Max still cared about Liz, but Max was honest with Tess when he told her it was hard for him to say what he felt about Liz. Liz could have shown Max that she was concerned about him, since he was bound and held at gunpoint by Brody. But Liz instead chose to care more about Sean than Max. So Max began to think that Liz cared very little about him. Liz made a date to go out with Sean. Max remembered Tess, and went to her room at night, to tell her he remembered her. Liz and Max were growing further apart, while Max was growing closer to Tess.

Liz explored being with Sean. Later, Liz and Max agreed to go to the prom as friends. Afterward, Liz saw Max and Tess together in Max's bedroom. Liz thought that Max was romantically interested in Tess, because she saw them hug each other by candlelight.

At the prom, I think Liz was saying to Max that she wanted him to promise her that he wouldn't fall in love with Tess. I think Max was saying to Liz that he didn't want to hurt her, but he did want to continue to learn more about himself and his planet with Tess' continuing help.

Liz and Max reached an impasse about how their relationship might progress. Max had grown closer to Tess, while Liz had explored being with Sean. Liz and Max had gotten out of sync with each other. They didn't know how to be together anymore. They went their separate ways—Max with Tess, and Liz with Sean.

Max's relationship with Tess continued to grow closer, as Max and Tess spent more time together. Alex's death drove Liz and Max even further apart.

Sometimes, relationships fail. Liz and Max lost hope that they could be with each other romantically. They couldn't see any way to work things out between them.

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I think Tess was intelligent, too. :)

Tess was aware that the other Skins didn't find the Royal Four, even though Whitaker, a Skin, did. Also, Courtney, another Skin, destroyed the husks the Skins needed to survive. So Tess knew that people sometimes go against the group they seem to be aligned with.

Nicholas and Whitaker independently wanted the Granilith, even before the new husks were destroyed. Also, the Skins didn't know that Nasedo had found Tess, Max, Michael, and Isabel. In addition, Whitaker, a Skin, killed Nasedo. So Tess (and the audience) had no way of determining whether or not the Skins truly were aligned with Kivar.

Although Nicholas said he represented Kivar, we lack independent verification of whether or not Nicholas was lying.

Historically, England sent people to North America. Some of the colonists rebelled against their English ruler, while some remained loyal. So, it makes sense that the Skins, even if they had been sent by Kivar, might decide to do what they wanted instead.

In the current timeline, Tess attended the Summit with Max.

HANAR: We're here to end 50 years of misery and suffering among our worlds. Kathana attacks Kivar. Kivar attacks Sero. Sero attacks me.

Tess knew there were at least three different warring groups. Tess had no way of knowing who was friend and who was foe. She had no way of knowing how many warring factions might also be on Earth.

In the podchamber, after the message from his Antarian mother, Max had rejected Tess in terms of romantic interest. So, as far as Tess knew, Max might have been her enemy, as Nasedo told her.

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Good points, Citrus. I'm still confused though.

Whittaker knew where the royal four were but the rest of the Skins did not. Was Whittaker working on her own or had she just not informed the other skins what she had found out?

At the point that Whittaker kidnaps Tess, she still does not know who the real Vilandra is. Vilandra is who she wants. Whittaker tries to talk Isabel into joining sides with her and the other Skins. Isabel kills Whittaker before she has a chance to contact the other Skins and let them know she has identified Vilandra.

Vilandra is who the Skins want. When Max reads the letter to Whittaker from the Uiniveral Friendship League in Harvest, it is signed T. Grier, Coordinator, Vilandra Project. So we know the Skins were looking for the princess. Why would they be doing that? Isn't it because they were trying to retreive her for Kivar. Doesn't Whittaker say something to Isabel about how she betrayed everyone for her great love, Kivar and for the race of Skins?

We are never told how much Tess was able to hear or understand about what Whittaker said. Tess is conscious enough to walk with Isabel's aid. She's concious enough to scream when they plunge through the window.

Later, when the Dupes come to Roswell, Max finds out from Lonnie about the story the Skins and Kivar have told that Vilandra is the one who betrayed everyone. I don't know if Max ever discusses this with Tess or if Tess finds out about it at all.

In Wipeout, Nicholas calls Isabel Vilandra in front of Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess. Tess knew about the Vilandra Project by name at this point. So now she knows the Skins had a project focused on Vilandra who is now identified as Isabel.

Is Tess wondering at this point what Kivar wants with Isabel if Nasedo's instructions are that Kivar wants Tess and Max to produce an heir to the throne? Doesn't she question why Kivar might want Isabel badly enough to have a project spearheaded by the Skins to retreive her? It isn't a royal four project or king and queen plus baby project. It's all about Vilandra for the Skins.

Vilandra is who Kivar wants. He comes to Earth in s3 to try to get Isabel to willingly come back to Antar. We are led to think that it isn't just because he loves her but because he is still trying to legitimize his throne. But we don't know that. We are all just assuming that because of the events we know about baby Zan.

We know that baby Zan has been born by the time Kivar makes his trip to Earth because Max has received visions of his son calling for help. We have Tess' story in 4AAAB that Zan is rejected by Kivar for being human so it makes sense to suppose that Kivar is still looking for a way to have an heir that is linked to him in order to strengthen his rule.

Where I am going with all this I don' t know, except that it is very confusing as to who knows what. It seems that Tess would find it strange that Kivar has so much energy devoted to getting the princess back when Nasedo has told her it is an heir produced by Tess and Max that is Kivar's priority. I know I am projecting my own interpretations on what I would think of all of this because there is no way I would have trusted any of them, not Nasedo, not Max and certainly not Kivar who had already killed me once.

Hi, Algieba! I think your're right. Who knows what, and when it's learned is important to the story! :)


I think Whitaker knew she kidnapped Ava/Tess.

I think Whitaker came to Roswell, after the Special Unit was disbanded, because she had heard about Max from the real Pierce. She didn't tell the other Copper Summit Skins what she knew. I think Whitaker also knew that the real Pierce once had Michael under surveillance to find out more about Max. I think Courtney had worked with Whitaker at one time, and maybe still did. I think that's how Courtney found out about Michael, and began watching Michael. Possibly Courtney was still working with Whitaker, although for her own reasons, rather than to help Whitaker.

Nicholas recognized Michael, even though Michael was in a different body. Greer recognized “the once and future King and his bride', even though they were in different bodies. Whitaker recognized Isabel, even though Isabel was in a different body. So I think Whitaker knew that Tess was Ava, and not Vilandra.

Whitaker found out about Tess, when Liz revealed her jealousy of Tess. The Special Unit knew nothing about Tess or Ed Harding, so I think Whitaker was ignorant of Tess' existence, until Liz gave her Tess' name.

I think Whitaker specifically targeted Tess, rather than Isabel, because Tess lived apart from Max, while Isabel and Max lived in the same household. Isabel and Max were very close, whereas Tess lived isolated from Max, Michael, and Isabel. Whitaker hadn't anticipated that Tess and Isabel might have a special connection, or that Isabel would come to help Tess.

Although Whitaker told Isabel that she thought Tess was Vilandra, I think Whitaker lied. I think Whitaker knew that Tess wasn't Vilandra. I think Whitaker was providing a reason to tell Isabel that as Vilandra she had betrayed everyone, including herself, for her lover Kivar.

The Skins had been looking for all the Royal Four, not just Vilandra. The Skins in Copper Summit seemed to have lacked any knowledge of Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess, until Max, Isabel, Tess, and Liz arrived in Copper Summit.

Later, Nicholas led Isabel away from everyone, because she had asked Nicholas about Vilandra. Nicholas didn't tell the other Skins what he was doing. Although Nicholas told Isabel he was taking her back to Kivar, he didn't enlist the help of any of the other Skins. Nicholas demanded that Isabel tell him where the Granilith was. He disliked spending 50 years in the body of "a teenage misfit".

At the funeral, Liz exposed the fact that the displayed Whitaker body wasn't real. Greer then learned the Royals had come to investigate. Greer and the other Skins attempted to prevent Max, Tess, and Liz from leaving,

GREER: You mustn't be in such a hurry to leave us. It appears our long search for the royal four has finally ended. How convenient of you to deliver yourselves to us.

Until Greer saw that Whitaker's form had a hole in it and the flowers were rearranged in an attempt to conceal the damage, he was unaware that any of the Royals had come to Copper Summit, whereas Nicholas knew Isabel/Vilandra was there.

Nicholas, like Whitaker and like Courtney, was doing things on his own. He had his own agenda, separate from the agenda of the other Copper Summit Skins. Nicholas disliked living in the form of a “prepubescent' teen boy.

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The Vilandra Project

Greer signed his letter to Whitaker, “T. Greer, Senior Coordinator, Vilandra Project."

Since Vilandra had made it possible for Kivar to take over her planet, the Skins may have chosen her name for the project of finding the Royals. We know that Nicholas and Whitaker knew the Granilith had gone with the Royals to Earth.

Since the Skins came to Earth in 1950, and Nasedo came to Earth in 1959 (my opinion), the Skins may or may not have known that Kivar wanted a Royal heir.

Kivar might have decided he wanted a lineal, Royal heir, after he sent the Skins to Earth. The Skins might only have been told to capture the Royals.

I think Kivar sent Nasedo (and Kal) to Earth, after the Skins failed to get results in finding the Royal Four. Kivar chose shapeshifters, because they could look and sound like anyone, thereby giving them greater advantage in seeking out the Royal Four.

The Skins came to Earth in 1950. [COURTNEY, to Michael and Maria in the car in Harvest: Yeah, we came here in 1950. Do the math.]

I think Nasedo and Kal were sent by Kivar, after the podsters arrived on Earth and after the Skins arrived on Earth. I think Nasedo and Kal arrived on Earth around 1959, the year that the silver handprint murders began and the year Kal murdered the actress.

Whitaker knew the name Nasedo. She knew who Isabel was taking about, when Isabel asked, “You killed Nasedo, didn't you?' So Whitaker may have heard the name from Pierce's surveillance of Michael, when Pierce learned the name Nasedo.

Nasedo knew about Skins. However, he didn't tell them that he had found Tess, Max, Michael, and Isabel. So Nasedo was working without the Skins.


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I'm not sure if Tess believed that Kivar had killed her. Maybe Kivar himself didn't kill Tess.

Max and Isabel's Antarian mother said, "You perished in the conflict that enslaves our planet ."

Nicholas told Michael that he had killed Michael himself.

Michael later remembered (after Tess left Earth) what had happened. He said, "I remember something. You [Vilandra/Isabel] led Kivar into the city with his men, but he convinced you that he wanted peace. He said he wasn't gonna kill anybody, that he was there to call a truce. And once you helped him gain access, he killed all of us. You didn't kill us, Isabel. He did. He betrayed you."


I think that Kivar (or his minions) killed Ava/Tess. Nasedo probably told Tess an entirely different story, since he enlisted Tess' help. Nasedo may have told Tess that Zan/Max had killed her. Or Nasedo may have told Tess that she was accidentally killed in the conflict. Tess had no objective way of knowing who was telling the truth.

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Thanks for trying to clarify things for me, Citrus. What you say makes a lot of sense. It's possible Whittaker knew Tess was not Vilandra. It was eerie how Nicholas felt he could see Vilandra in Isabel's eyes. So did Khivar once he saw her in person.

I've got a theory about Nicholas. I think he either killed Vilandra or was responsible for her death. Totally my opinion on this one.

In The Harvest, Nicholas tells Isabel in the husk room, "Your destiny is with us. With Khivar. He's waiting to hear that we've found you....You know, on our world, I was considered to be something of a ladies man. I even remember you giving me the eye now and again."

That indicates to me that Nicholas had a way to contact Khivar. I also think Nicholas doesn't get to go back to Antar until he returns with Vilandra or the Granilith or something with which he can redeem himself with Khviar. Nicholas has to have done something to displease Khivar to be exiled from the planet in a body he hates.

Nicholas, who fashions himself a ladies man, is stuck on a planet he hates in a body he hates. His body is not attactive to grown females on Earth whereas he use to be admired on Antar. Someone has forced this humiliating form on Nicholas because he definitely wouldn't have chosen it for himself.

I think Nicholas' admission that he thought Vilandra was giving him the eye shows that he was interested in Vilandra himself, but he dared not openly cross Khivar by trying to take her for himself. But he might have thought Vilandra was interested enough in him to welcome his advances. If she rejected him, I'm sure that enraged Nicholas. He admits he killed Rath. I think he also killed Vilandra or arranged for her to be killed because he was angry that she spurned his advances.

In Wipeout, Isabel is talking to Nicholas in the bus.

She says, "The last time we were together, you awakened something in me. I remembered things from our past. You and me."

Nicholas responds, " Our forbidden meetings."

What if Nicholas was Khivar's go-between with Vilandra? Nicholas and Vilandra had secret meetings to pass messages back and forth and find ways for Vilandra and Khivar to be together. Perhaps Nicholas flattered himself that Vilandra really was growing interested in him. She, however, was just using him to get to Khivar. How humiliating that must have been for Nicholas.

As for 'forbidden' meetings, I wonder if Vilandra grew uncomfortable with Nicholas' obvious interest in her and spoke to Khivar about it. Khivar would have forbidden Nicholas to see her anymore. Or perhaps Zan had forbidden Vilandra to have any contact with Khivar or his cohorts. Either way, Nicholas could no longer see her.

Nicholas' reaction to Isabel when she tries to knock him out in the bus is homicidal rage.

Ida: What do want us to do now?

Nicholas: Kill every last one of them.

Nicholas' reaction to having his affection for Isabel spurned is a childish tantrum and an order to kill her and everyone else. This could very well have happend on Antar also. It wasn't enough for Nicholas to kill Rath. He killed Vilandra also.

I'm sure he denied it to Khivar and blamed it on someone else. Someone Nicholas probably also killed to keep the truth from being revealed. I think Khivar would have held him responsible anyway. It could have been Nicholas' duty to insure Vilandra's safety if Khivar wanted her for himself. Khivar's punishment could have been to force Nicholas to prove his loyalty to him by retrieving the royal four. That Khivar forced Nicholas to endure a body that wouldn't allow him to be attractive to every female on the planet is fitting punishment for someone as vain as Nicholas.

Lonnie, playing up to Nicholas in MITC, probably didn't surprise him at all. By now he sees her as beautiful and desirable but a liar and traitor. He probably would have killed Lonnie too if he got the chance.

I regret that I don't have time now to read all of the above discussion, but this jumped out at me:Citrus, your description of that scene reveals the symbolism of the choreography regarding Tess & Max's relationship.
I think both would have rather followed other love interests (i.e. Max with Liz and Tess with Kyle).

When watching a few minutes of Wipe Out today while home briefly for lunch, I noticed that Michael sincerely assures Maria that they will be together again, even though everything they have observed indicates that all humans are disappearing. I had missed it previously--it's another instance of Michael's mental powers.

Citrus & Vine:
For example, she (Tess) probably knew that Max had been named Zan in his previous life. She painted a pink Z on Kyle's bedroom wall, which I think stood for Zan.

I think she was just "making her mark" on the room. The way she did it was very like making The Mark of Zorro.

Tess also probably knew at least some of the Antarian language, because Alex was able to decode the book. Without a sort of Rosetta stone or some knowledge of the language, I think it would be virtually impossible to decode the book, even with the best of computers.

Well, I know some Latin, but I doubt I could translate something I didn't already know even with a computer. Bulk vocabulary can not be deduced from partial vocabulary.

Seive:
Tess didn't care about friends, never showing any interest in them. She had no use for anyone other than Max, Michael and Isabel. Tess told Max that Nasedo had no human emotions, so I'm sure she never considered him a friend.

Normally you don't consider your parent or bodyguard a "friend". On the other hand, she did seem to consider Kyle and his father as friends. Notice the Thanksgiving dinner she made, for example.

Algieba:
You supposedly have a deal with Kivar to return to Antar with the other royals plus produce an heir to the throne. To fulfill this deal you need to stay alive and keep the others alive. So why are Kivar's Skin loyalists trying to kill you?

I don't think Tess would even need to be intelligent to figure out that someone, maybe everyone, is trying to deceive her. Kivar killed her once. His followers are trying to kill her again. Her protector kills with no conscience and lies to her about it. Why would Tess trust anyone at this point with her life and the life of her son?

Yes! Yes! Yes!
This is what I've been saying right along! The "deal" that Tess is following, makes no sense for her to follow. It will clearly put her in the clutches of someone who wants to kill her. She only starts acting on it after Lonnie and Rath capture her, probably so Nikolas can work her over.

My point all along has been, that if Nikolas MWed her to believe in this Deal, everything makes much more sense. Nikolas can MW Alex for months on end without taking Tess from Roswell, and provide the props including a MWed not-Leanna and her warehouse. Getting the King, Queen, and heir "home" suits Nikolas very well. As for his comment (in Wipeout) about Max getting bad advice from Tess: you can't get good advice from a yes-man, and Tess is too starstruck by Max to give him good advice. See her "advice" to Max in MitC, for example.

The whole thing makes very good sense if Max has to choose between a constantly flattering Tess and a sometimes angry Liz. At least, that's the way I interpret the stories.

Either he (Max) feels he no longer loves her (Liz) as his soulmate or he cannot or will not allow himself to be with her because of her supposed relationship with Kyle. Which is it?

Liz makes it very clear while they are dancing at the prom that she is and has been in terrible pain because she has been so afraid that Max will remember Tess and remember his love for her. She can't say it any clearer than that if she's trying to tell him how much she loves him and how devastated she would be to lose him. If Max loved her, now would be the time to forgive her and tell her he loves her.

Yet Max doesn't respond. He doesn't tell her that he loves her and that no matter how much he might care about Tess, she, Liz, is still his destiny. Why?!!!!! I don't get it. Is Max so unable to forgive Liz's infidelity that he doesn't really love her anymore? Because he sure does change his tune real quick in Departure when he finds out that Liz never slept with Kyle. Is that what this is all about? Is Max's love conditional on the loyalty of the person he is with? Is there no place in his heart for forgiveness?

Oh, but it's so clear (to me)...
Max wants Liz, on her own terms. That is, he wants her to be with him of her own free will. Liz has made it plain that she will not be with him of her own free will; since the tail end of S1 when she walked out on him, she has held him at arm's length. Remember that he kept telling her he wanted her. He's done everything he could. At the beginning of TEOTW, he's even seranadeing her! She keeps telling him that she doesn't want him to be so close. Yet she remains close to him; she will hear his problems, she even angled to get him to take her to the Prom. Then she walked away from him at the Prom. She left him.

It's not that he doesn't love her; quite the reverse: He loves her enough to take "No" for an answer. And it's tearing him up inside. Even distancing himself from her doesn't help. Nor does distracting himself by accepting Tess's overtures. When Liz finally tells him she "saved herself" for him, he understands that, somehow, her answer is not "No"; and that makes all the difference.

I agree that Liz telling Max that she had saved herself for Max told Max that Liz was romantically interested in Max. :)

Unlike Michael who stayed behind to be with Maria, Max intended to leave Earth, even though Liz told Max she had saved herself for him. Max didn't stay on Earth to be with Liz, even though he knew that Liz's life might be in danger.

Following Max and Tess' breakup, Max stayed on Earth, so he could stay alive to help his son.



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In Copper Summit, Nicholas didn't tell the other Skins that Isabel was Vilandra. The Skins could have overcome Max, Tess, Isabel, and Liz overnight as they slept, if Nicholas had told the other Skins what he knew. Nicholas was acting for himself. He wanted the Granilith for himself, even before the husks were destroyed.



In Roswell again, Tess was able to hide everyone from Ida and Nicholas.




Nicholas wasn't able to get the location of the Granilith from Max, because Tess' mental powers were stronger than Nicholas' powers.




At the Summit, Nicholas told Lonnie that Kivar wanted Max dead, if Max didn't give up the Granilith.


NICHOLAS: If he takes the deal, there'll be a nice public execution to attend. If he doesn't take the deal, Kivar still wants him dead.
LONNIE: I can arrange that. What's in it for me?
NICHOLAS: Passage home.



Lonnie tried to kill Max, as Nicholas wanted.


Nicholas wanted Max dead, so he could use the Granilith for himself, not for Kivar.

Kivar wanted Max to stay alive, until after a Royal, lineal heir with Antarian blood had been born.

Nicholas wasn't carrying out Kivar's wishes. Nicholas was acting for himself.




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Screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries and Momo’s Roswell

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Valerie St John’s site reports that she is Executive Producer of Motion Picture Media. :)

So then, we could speculate that Nicholas was hoping to have his own Royal heir with Lonnie.

I think Nicholas was only using Lonnie to get the Granilith. I don't think he had any intention of taking her with him or having children with her, especially since Lonnie wasn't Royal.



Nicholas knew that the New York Dupes weren’t the genuine Royals. The Dupes didn’t have the Granilth. Nicholas knew that Lonnie wasn’t the real Vilandra. So any children Nicholas might have with Lonnie wouldn’t be Royal, lineal children.

Kivar came to Earth for Isabel, not Lonnie. Isabel was the true lineal Royal. Lonnie and the other New York Dupes were imitations of the Royals. The Dupes had been sent as decoys.

NICHOLAS: Better hope you're right. Without Max, no one at the summit's gonna give you two the time of day.
RATH: We're two of the Royal Four.
NICHOLAS: Royal rejects is more like it.
RATH: Hey, yo, get this straight. We are the originals. They are the rejects.
NICHOLAS: Ha. Uh, gee...they were carefully hidden away in Roswell and got custody of the Granilith. You were dumped in the sewer. Figure that out.

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screencaps from Momo’s Roswell

Good points, C&V. This sort of begs the question as to whether Tess was the real Royal. Were you in on our old "switched pod" theory discussions? They were based on the "leaky pod" images from Summer of '47. Somehow we tied that to an idea that Nasedo switched Tess and Ava. Also, Ava seemed more like the Roswell 4, and Tess seemed more like the Dupes--at least to us discussing it at the time. So, based on that theory, I'm speculating that the real reason Kvar rejected baby Zan is that he didn't have the seal. Which, if it were true (i.e. if future writers go there), could open up possibilities for a Next Generation Roswell in which Zan discovers his powers.
Just rambling.:)

Well...
Assuming that the Seal maps exactly to royalty (unproven), is the Seal patrilineal or matrilineal, or both? If Max is the father, would any child have the Seal? Or if Tess (or Ava) is the mother, does that provide the seal? Or do both parents have to be Royal to produce offspring who carry the Seal?

Suppose Ava gets pregnant, elsewhere, and then we discover that her child has the Seal? And baby Zan didn't? <boggles at the possibilities>

Someone with more knowledge of Earth's royalty please correct me if I'm wrong but haven't there been many heirs to the throne amongst philandering kings and queens?

They have married for alliances between warring houses and nations but have sometimes had love affairs on the side. Were any of those children born from a king or queen's line eligible for the throne even though royalty and lover were not married? Did an affair with another royal hold more promise of eligibility than an affair with a commoner? I was under the impression that an illigitimate child or a child descended from a commoner was unacceptable especially if there were other true blooded heirs available.

I still don't think baby Zan will ever be safe. He could grow up to father an acceptable heir to the throne so he is still a threat to Khivar. He was born to the King and Queen. Greer recognized Max and Tess as the "...once and future king and his bride...". Max defended Tess as queen when Michael wanted him to tell her to get rid of the baby since he was the king. "That makes her the queen."

Does Liz now become the queen because she is married to Max? Are their children in danger because one of them may be born with the requisite alien quality that Zan lacked and therefore qualify for heir to the throne on Antar?

Algeiba, there is a ribald song called The Bastard King of England. Dissussion of the song states “To start with a nitpick, there were no bastard kings of England. William the Conqueror (1066-1087) was illegitimate, and was even called "William the Bastard" as Duke of Normandy, but he won the throne of England by conquest, not birth. King Henry VII Tudor (1485-1509) also had questionable blood, but he himself was legitimate; it's just that his father was probably a bastard, and his mother's grandfather (through whom he traced his claim to the throne) was also of doubtful legitimacy. But, again, it hardly matters; Henry held the throne by right of conquest.”

:) Different groups have different requirements about who is eligible to become ruler.


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Liz and Max might have problems in the future, if Ava and Tess’ pods had been switched. Max might one day remember more about his past on Antar. He might feel the same love for NY Ava that he once felt for Ava, when he lived on Antar.

I think Tess was the fourth Royal and not NY Ava. I don’t think Nasedo switched Ava and Tess. Nasedo worked for Kivar. If Nasedo had had access to the pods before the podsters emerged, he wouldn’t have any reason to switch Ava and Tess.

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With a valid theory, explanations that cover the known facts can be helpful in understanding things. :)

Tess said that Kivar rejected baby Zan. And Tess came with baby Zan to Earth. Baby Zan was fully human. (Otherwise, Max wouldn’t have asked that the baby be adopted. Max wanted Zan to have a safe life.)

Kivar came to Earth for Isabel. He didn’t kill Max or Michael, even though they both could carry the Seal. So, I think the most logical explanation is that Kivar wanted a child from Isabel, since Max and Tess’ child was human. Kivar didn’t kill Max or Michael, because a Royal, lineal heir with Antarian blood hadn’t yet been born for the Seal to pass to.

The true ruler of Antar wore the Seal on the brain. After Max died, Michael, who was an interim ruler, carried the Seal on his chest, where everyone could see that Micheal was an interim ruler, and not the true ruler. The true ruler of Antar could physically take the Seal away from an interim ruler. Max took the Seal from Michael.

Kivar didn’t persuade, restain, or compel Tess to remain with him. I think that fact shows that Max, not Tess, was the important factor that Kivar wanted. Kivar had wanted a child from Max who had Antarian blood. Zan was human, and so couldn’t receive the Seal. (When Max died, the Seal didn’t move with him into Clayton’s fully human body. Human bodies couldn’t receive the Seal. Later, Max grew Antarian cells in the formerly Clayton body, and Max was able to take back the Seal from Michael.)

Kivar came to Earth for Isabel. That shows that Kivar wanted Isabel for something. I think that Isabel may or may not have been eligible for the Seal herself. The Seal may have bypassed Isabel, because she was incapacitated, unconscious, and near death, shortly after Max died.

However, even if Isabel could receive the Seal, Kivar still needed an heir he could control. Kivar had difficultly getting Isabel to go with him. He had some power and control over her. But Isabel was able to break out of Kivar’s power, with Jesse’s intervention. So Kivar couldn’t control Isabel completely, which is why he needed a Royal, lineal heir with Antarian blood, who he would then control.


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Max/Zan's father died. Max was crowned King. So Max probably received the Seal from his father.

Isabel/Vilandra might also have been eligible for the Seal, when she lived on Antar. Isabel/Vilandra might have been younger than Max/Zan, so that the oldest lineal child might have preference in receiving the Seal. Or the preference may have been gender specific. Perhaps males received the Seal, in preference to females. Or perhaps only males could receive the Seal. Max/Zan's father, Max, and Michael were all males. Max and Michael sequentially had the Seal.


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Baby Zan, Max's child, didn't get the Seal after Max died. Michael got the Seal. Because Zan was human, he was ineligible to receive the Seal.

The Seal was unique. It enhanced the powers of the person who had it. Max, the true King, had the Seal. Max could bring people back to life.

After Max lost the Seal, his powers diminished. His Clayton body died on impact. With Liz's kiss and his own remaining healing powers, Max was able to live again, after Clayton's essence left the body.

Just before dying again, Max expended much of his remaining force field powers, when he used the power to cushion Liz's fall from the window. Later, Max was unable to heal Kyle's wound. He had expended his healing power in rejuvenating Clayton and in returning to life again. Max's force field barrier power also significantly diminished with time.



Only one person at a time had the Seal. Michael received the Seal, after Max died. Max took back the Seal from Michael.

I think Max’s child with Antarian blood would receive the Seal upon Max’s death.

(Max/Zan’s father died, before Max/Zan’s coronation. — LAREK: I was there at your father's funeral. At your coronation, your wedding.)

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Nasedo didn’t send Tess to Kivar, when he found her. Instead, Tess was to have a child by Max. So, Tess alone was not enough to provide the heir Kivar wanted.

I don’t think both parents had to be Royal to produce offspring eligible to receive the Seal. Otherwise, Kivar would have tried to take Max and/or Michael, as well as Isabel back to Antar. Since Kivar didn’t try to take Max or Michael back to Antar, I think only one parent, either Max or Isabel, needed to be the lineal Royal to produce an eligible heir for the Seal, who would become the true ruler of Antar.

I think Kivar came for Isabel only, because he only needed Isabel to produce a child with Antarian blood, who would then be eligible, by virtue of lineage and blood, to receive the Seal, upon Max’s death.

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NY Ava wasn’t Max’s sister. She wasn’t the lineal Royal. Only Max and Isabel were the lineal Royals.

Any child Ava had, unless by Max, couldn’t become the true ruler.


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I read with interest the theories that Liz, not Tess, might have been the fourth Royal. I couldn’t figure out, though, how that could be. In any case, Liz and Max loved each other and found happiness together. :)

As you suggest, shapeshifter, more stories of Roswell might include Max and Tess’ child Zan. Maybe Zan would develop powers, too, even though he was human.

For example, I think that Liz’s powers of precognition might be her human powers, whereas, I think that Liz’s power to blast people and to warn Max at a great distance without a device came about because Max healed her. Liz also helped to return Max to life, after he fell from the window. So Liz might have some healing powers, or her kiss might have coincidentally happened as Max was able to revive the body with his remaining healing powers.

Perhaps Liz eventually grew Antarian cells, too. Maybe Liz might have been changed in ways that might someday make her eligible for the Seal, if Max died. Who knows?

Kivar wanted to kill Zan once. I think Kivar would still try to kill Zan, knowing that Zan was Max’s child. Otherwise, Zan could grow up to wage war against Kivar.

I don’t think that Kivar believed that any children of baby Zan’s could ever inherit the Seal. Otherwise, Kivar would have accepted baby Zan and kept him around, in case he needed him later.

Max and Liz might decide to forgo having children, since Kivar might grab their child, if the baby had Antarian blood, and since Liz and Max were hunted by government people who wanted to kill them.

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I don’t think Liz has any interest in being queen of Antar. The last we saw, the group was happy being together on Earth.

If the story continued, everyone would probably have to deal with Kivar’s ongoing threat to their lives and the threat to Zan’s life. Also, they would probably have to consider that aliens might still take over Earth. So, even though the story concluded with the group living happily, things would probably change, if there were more stories. :)


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Reggie.

I never addressed your last post so let me get back to that. I agree with you that a Nicholas MW of Tess would have been more credible than Tess doing everything on her own. I think the ending of MITC was left open as to what happened to the Dupes and Nicholas so that the plot could be developed later if needed. It ended with too many questions. What happened to Tess when she was alone with Lonnie and Rath? Tess didn't know. She was confused. I don't think it was later developed because TPTB decided to get rid of Tess and no longer needed that plot line.

Just for the record, Liz didn't choose to walk away from Max at the prom. She was wavering, wanting to go comfort Maria but also wanting to finish her conversation with Max. When she couldn't decide what to do Max told her to go. Max made the final decision to end the conversation.


Citrus.

My question is not whether or not Liz is interested in being queen of Antar. It is whether or not she is technically now queen of Antar because she is married to Max. Michael stated that Max was king. Max said that makes Tess the queen. Granted, Michael and Max may not know any more about the eligibility requirements than we do, but if we're going by what they said, I think that opens the way for anyone who is married to Max to "possibly" be the queen whether they are interested or not.

I was wondering if Antar was like Earth as in when the present Queen Elizabeth married a man, her husband did not automatically become a king. So would Liz be something like that? Married to a king, but not a queen. It seems that on Antar, Ava was a queen, not just a woman married to a king. Is there a reason Max calls Tess the queen or is he just assuming because she was married to him that she was a queen? I can't remember if Tess was referred to as a queen by anyone from Antar or just the king's bride. I'll have to go back and read over the scripts for all such moments including the momogram, the message Alex translated and Greer's exact words.

Some things, like the word technically, can be situational, undefined, or unknown. For example, a person can be pronounced dead, and yet later prove to be alive.

Liz wrote her dad that she and Max eventually married. However, Liz and Max may not have married under their real names, for fear of being found by the people who tried to kill them at their graduation. So, technically, Liz and Max might not be in a valid, legal marriage.

Technically, Max lived before on Antar and was married. Technically, Max and Tess became involved with each other and considered themselves to be married to each other. Technically, Max never divorced the person he married in his previous life.

Tess died, so Max became technically free to marry another person. Liz and Max married. However, whether or not Liz and Max’s marriage would be considered to be a valid marriage on planets other than Earth is open to question. Sometimes, marriages from one place are not recognized in another place.

Baby Zan was rejected by Kivar, because he was human. So, it is also possible that Liz, because she is human, might be rejected for the position of queen on Antar.

Even though Tess and Max got together, Tess as Tess didn’t stay on Antar to be queen. So, also, even though Liz and Max are now together and are now married, Liz may never become queen of Antar, either. Then again, perhaps Liz and Max would go to Antar, in which case, the question of whether or not Liz is technically queen would be resolved. Short of any evidence one way or the other, Liz might or might not technically be queen. In reality (or at least, fictional reality), Liz is not a reigning queen. Max remains the true king of another planet, even though he isn’t reigning as king.

I found the translation of the book. "You are the Royal Four. Zan, the king, Ava, his queen, Vilandra, his sister amd Rath, his councelor." Punctuation may be wrong because I copied it from what I could see on the tv.

I will probably never use the situational, undefined or unknown word, technically, again when referring to certain questions. I enjoy speculating on what might or could be and am well aware that there is no way to know for certain what will happen unless the story was to be continued.

Sorry about that, Algieba. :flowers: “Technically” can be a useful and helpful term, so my apologies. I guess I got carried away.

I think speculating about the characters is fun, too. A lot of really cool ideas come about by speculating about things.







The translation continues, “You are created from the genetic materials of your alien predecessors and human subjects...” I thought that the phrase “human subjects” was cause for concern.

When the orbs transmitted the message, alien devices around the world were activated. The Copper Summit Skins didn’t have the devices. Other aliens apparently also inhabited Earth. Aliens evidently had been on Earth prior to the 1947 crash, because Michael looked like Laurie Dupree’s grandfather.

An important question might be whether or not the Royals were also taking over Earth. If the Royals considered humans their subjects, then Earth might be in danger from the people who sent the Royal Four to Earth.

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screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries

Oh, my gosh, Citrus. I had forgotten all about that phrase "human subjects" and my reaction to it when I first heard Alex say it.

I remember thinking the same thing you said, that apparently those who had engineered the royals looked upon humans as nothing more than their subjects. Subjects have no rights. They are under the authority or control of another. I was expecting to hear more about it as the story developed but then the idea wasn't brought up again and I forgot about it. The phrase made me feel like a bug under glass in the alien's eyes.

Grandpa Dupree certainly didn't willingly allow himself to be used for genetic material. Laurie said he was afraid of the aliens. The pictures he drew of them were frightening.

This opens up a whole new field of thought for me. Like I really need a whole new field of thought. I've put about fifteen hours of reading, writing and thinking just since Friday night on a project I have to complete for school. My brain needs a rest but this idea is too intriguing to pass up.

What if the planet of Antar's inhabitants look on humans as so inferior that they see nothing morally wrong with using us, experimenting on us and subjecting us to their rule? We don't have anywhere near the level of technology they have. We won't develop "powers" according to Nasedo, for another thousand years. FMax decscribed an Earth being taken over in the future by violence ("I've fought a thousand battles").

I remember Langley telling Max something about how he'd be better off to embrace his human side and that Earth was such a better place. Maybe Langley had good reason not to want to return to Antar.

I think this idea deserves more thought which I will give it when I have more time. Perhaps others will add their thoughts too. Your question, whether or not the Royals were also trying to take over Earth, is so obvious I can't believe I've overlooked it for so long. Especially since I love alien invasion stories.

Oh, and apology accepted. Anyone bearing flowers is immediately forgiven. Flowers are even better than chocolate. If I overreacted, it's because I'm soooo tired right now.

I took the term "subjects" to mean experimental subjects rather than those who are ruled. Mr. Dupree was clearly an experimental subject.

I agree we mustn't forget the orbs, and the alien devices they set off. I don't remember: were the alien devices the same as the one Brody had?

I believe that Brody's was his badge as an Ambasador; an insignia, as well as the tools of his office. The power blocking function, for example, would keep the ambassador safe from alien attack. Another logical function would be to act as a beacon pointer; when the R4 set off a beacon, the locators pointed that out. So the other aliens with devices might be ambassadors from many other worlds, not just the Five Planets; and be allies, enemies, and neutrals.

I agree with Reggie, I take that in the context of subject of an experiment.



Yes, as I can recall, the devices are alike. I think that Brody's device is shown to us for we to "connect the dots" in terms of what will be the theme of season 2... "it as begun". But in the end, season 2 was so ramdom in it's development that it never got to show us who are all those aliens with those devices...

Although your theory of being placed in Brody's way because he was an avatar for an ambassador, and the ambassadar needed that equipment is good... In the summit, we never see any device from the other avatars...

Wow. This thread must have 9 lives.
Well, that's nice.

If they'd never given us the whole Antarian back story--just left the podsters wondering about from where they came--it could have been that they were born from embryos of Antarian stem cell research that were "rescued" from slavery in a lab and sent to earth.

No intent to offend anyone. I read recently that stem cells are probably present in some form in all body parts, so the whole embryo issue will become a non-issue, and research can go on.

Good points, greenglow and Reggie. A subject could be referring to the experiment to combine human and alien. That might be worse though than just being subject to someone's rule.

Dupree did not willingly submit to the experiment. They forced him. I'm used to thinking of scientific experiments on unwilling subjects as what humans do to animals. I'm not used to being, nor do I wish to become used to being a subject of an alien experiment.

My feeling is that those who used Dupree had no regard for his rights just as humans have no regard for monkeys or rats or whatever they experiment on. Humans rationalize that the greater good is being served so they can inflict whatever pain and suffering they choose on lesser creatures.

That appears to me to be the attitude of those who used humans to create Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess. I would not care to be one of their subjects, royal or experimental.

Algieba, I agree that all the people, like Dupree, were taken to provide the experimental data & DNA material needed to conduct a programme to develop a human-alien hybrid were conducted with total disregard for human life. But, in a way, that exposes a good angle of the Roswell premises: that the deeper Michael, Max & Isabel got into their alien background, the more they are confronted with being, in fact, human.

In a way, they are 2 times alien: they cannot identify themselfs with humans because of the alien part, but they cannot understand the alien way of thought either. Nasedo (season 1 Nasedo :lol: ) is especially relevant to understand that, because his behaviour is completely *inhuman* and is not a question of right and wrong, is just that he "plays wiht a different set of cards", so to speak. He is completely alien, and not one of his thoughts and actions is justifieble in human terms. Or in Max, Michael & Isabel terms!

Nasedo and Kivar are aliens that proved to be enemies. Likewise, some humans were also enemies. Whether alien or human, people can be good or bad.

Max, Michael, and Isabel are extraterrestrial aliens. They are human and alien both. They are in a unique position to help both humans and aliens.

Because extraterrestrial aliens are on Earth, Earth remains in danger. Aliens can inhabit human bodies. Shapeshifters can look and sound like any human. Aliens can live in husks on Earth. Alien hybrids live on Earth. And humans were defeated in the previous timeline.

Unless Max, Michael, and Isabel and the others recognize that Earth is still in danger, Earth could again be conquered, as it was in the previous timeline.

Max, Michael, and Isabel have the potential for helping people of other planets, as well as Earth. Max, because he is an alien King, has the potential for gaining support from aliens. People on other planets, as well as people on Earth, need Max, Michael, and Isabel to embrace their alien identity too. :)

Citrus, one of the most unique features of the Roswell original premises, in Sci-Fi terms, was the fact that, for the real aliens, like Nasedo, the human understanding of good & evil do not exist... he just doesn't think in those terms. This is consistent all trough season 1. Later, as season 2 developed, this interesting and complex aproach was abandoned in favour of a more mainstream plot of good & bad, friend or foe.

It might be interesting to have a television series portraying aliens without the concept of good and evil. However, I don’t think Roswell attempted to say that aliens lack the concept of good and evil in Season One or in any Season.

I think that humans and aliens were shown to know the difference between good and evil from the onset of the episodes and throughout Roswell.

An alien killed people leaving behind dead bodies with silver handprints on them. That shows that an alien was out to get Max, since Max healed people near death, leaving a silver handprint. An alien was out to harm Max, which shows that the alien had intent and knew the difference between good and evil.

If Nasedo had only killed once, leaving a silver handprint, the incident might have been a mistake or an error in judgment or an inability to understand right from wrong. Nasedo, however, killed many times over many years, deliberately leaving behind a body with a silver handprint on it. Nasedo was a shapeshifter. No one knew who he was, after he changed shapes. There was no reason or need for Nasedo to kill humans, except to encourage humans to report silver handprint incidents, so Nasedo could find Max.

In Season One, Nasedo killed Sheila Hubble, who sat alone in her car outside an isolated store. He murdered her with purpose. He knew the difference between right and wrong. He knew what he was doing would bring harm to Max. (Nasedo was searching for Max and the other Royals.)


Liz saw a flash of a dead woman, when she kissed Nasedo, who was impersonating Max.

Nasedo also murdered an agent in downtown Roswell in daylight. The agent presented no threat to Nasedo. Nasedo killed people, because he knew that Sheila’s death and the agent's death would be reported as alien murders.


Max, an alien, healed people. That showed that aliens, as well as humans, can be compassionate towards others. Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother cared about them and hoped to see them again. She wanted freedom for their people. She said that their enemies had come to Earth and that the enemies would only be known by the evil within. Again, that showed that aliens were like humans and had concepts of good and evil.

Larek, an alien speaking through Brody, told how Max, when he was King on a different planet, tried so hard to help his people. Courtney, an alien, sacrificed her life to save Michael from the other Skins. Both instances showed that aliens had concepts of good and evil.


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Screencaps from Momo’s Roswell

Citrus, that scene in MTTM, where Liz gets a flash from Nasedo and the only thing that she catchs is the dark, cold, void, is there to show visually that Nasedo doesn't have feelings like we know them. So there's nothing there for Liz to see. Yes, he kills people. But not for the reason a person would. He kills because people are just instrumental to his needs, his plans, no concept of good and evil is evaluated (as humans understand them). Nothing stops him because he doesn't move himself in humankind's concepts & feelings. Max, Michael & Isabel are different. They are not really aliens. They are humans with some changes. They've grown up like humans. Have the same feelings and concepts. It's just like Isabel told Liz on one occasion and to Alex on another - they are just like us, but with some differences. And that's what Nasedo himself tells them later. Although Nasedo wasn't expecting the emotional side of them, like he also tells Michael...

I know this is abandoned in season 2, but it is just that - the writers and producers had to drop it to turn the show into something more easy to please the tv industry, more easy to catalog to atract sponsorships... that's show business.

Greenglow, for me this is a new insight. I guess that's why I keep coming back to this board/thread. :)

But, Greenglow (and Citrus), about the sense of good and evil in the aliens--let's not forget the Momogram about knowing your enemies by the 'evil within.'
I don't think we ever resolved whether the momogram was part mindwarp or in some other way contrived to manipulate the podsquad. Regardless, the hologram mother says she appears in a form that will be recognizable to the podsters. So the reference to evil could likewise be merely a way to get Max to be able to separate the dangerous aliens from the benign aliens. Still--there seems to be an understanding of evil. But if the momogram was contrived by Nasedo and/or Tess, then the concept of evil could have been observed on Earth by them, without being totally understood.
Also, even though Nasedo seems to have no concept of good and evil, it's possible that the non-Shapeshifter aliens did.

Roswell showed that individuals, whether they were human or alien, might be good or evil.

Nasedo had evil intent towards Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess. He planned to use them to carry out Kivar’s wishes.

The aliens who abducted Grandpa Dupree disregarded his wishes and feelings. However, Grandpa Dupree was allowed to return to his previous life.

In contrast, consider Laurie Dupree’s aunt and uncle. They wrongfully committed Laurie to a psychiatric facility, where she was drugged and held captive. I think the aunt and uncle were evil for falsely saying she was insane, so they could take over her money. I also think the people who accepted money to lie about Laurie and keep her drugged and held in the facility were evil.

Consider Pierce. He tortured Max and threatened to kill Liz. Pierce was willing to kill innocent people in the UFO Center, in order to get Max. I think that’s pretty evil.

Consider Agent Burns who attempted to murder Jesse, who hadn’t harmed anyone. I think Agent Burns could be called evil.

Consider Meris Wheeler. She had Monk killed, in order to find out if Michael could heal people. Maris was responsible for Jim Valenti being shot. She was responsible for Max dying in the process of healing Clayton. She wanted Clayton to murder Liz. I think we can say that Maris was evil.

Consider the assassin who tried to kill Connie Griffin, who was innocent of any wrongdoing. Consider Major Carlson, who murdered the assassin, thinking that he was killing Col. Griffin. I think both the assassin and Major Carlson were evil.

Consider the General and the people who planned to murder Liz, Max, Michael, and Isabel. I think they could be called evil.

I don’t think that people have to think of their actions as evil, in order to show that they understand good and evil.

I think Nasedo understood good and evil. Did Nasedo consider himself to be evil? Did Pierce consider himself to be evil? Did Laurie Dupree’s aunt and uncle consider themselves to be evil? Did the assassin who attempted to kill Connie Griffin consider himself to be evil? Did Major Carlson consider himself to be evil? Did Agent Burns consider himself to be evil? Did the Genreral who planned to murder Max, Michael, Isabel, and Liz consider himself to be evil?

Whether or not humans consider their own actions to be evil, humans who do evil things still know the concept of good and evil. Likewise, I think that Nasedo knew and understood the concept of good and evil. He hadn’t told Tess that he had killed people, because he wanted Tess to trust him. Nasedo understood good and evil.

Shapeshifter, you have really good points there... we can't really say that non-shapeshifters would behave the same way he does... and it's very interesting your idea about the momogram... we don't know if it is a fake, or mindwarp or real...

Citrus, Nasedo manipulates the way he presents reality to Tess, not because he is concerned about good & evil, or about her emotional needs, but because he sees people as means to a goal. He merely is aware that to have Tess "performing" the way he wants, he has to provide some needs, disclaime some facts and hide others... that's strategy and logistics not really good & bad or emotions...

Nasedo had emotions himself. He acquired wealth and possessions. He slept with Congresswoman Whittaker.

Nasedo understood emotions in others. He was able to get people to do what he wanted. He got Pierce to capture Max. Nasedo had emotions and he understood emotions in others.

Nasedo was able to choose to work for Kivar or not work for Kivar. Nasedo was able to form opinions, make decisions, and implement planned strategies and behaviors.

Nasedo knew what was harmful and what was not harmful. Nasedo knew right from wrong and good from evil. Nasedo made choices and he acted accordingly. Although Nasedo may not have considered his own actions to be evil, he understood that Max would consider Nasedo’s actions to be evil, if Max knew why Nasedo did what he did. Nasedo didn’t tell Max what Kivar wanted.

Kal, who was also a shapeshifter, also murdered people. Kal killed the actress in Roswell out of jealousy. Kal had emotions. He had loved the actress and he had felt jealousy that she loved someone else.

Kal didn’t plant silver handprints on his victims. Kal wanted to live on Earth. Kal felt that Earth was a more desirable place to live than Antar. Kal, a shapeshifter, had emotions about people and about what he wanted out of life.

Both Kal and Nasedo had emotions and understood good and evil. Neither of them stayed around after they killed people. They both understood that what they had done was wrong.

Nasedo understood and knew that he framed Max for the silver handprint murders. He knew that he was carrying out Kivar’s wishes. He understood that Max wouldn’t want to be captured by Kivar or do what Kivar wanted. Nasedo knew and understood right from wrong and good from evil.

To Kal and Nasedo, Max might have seemed evil, because Max had the power to tell them what to do. However, both Nasedo and Kal could avoid doing anything Max wanted them to do by staying away from Max. As long as Kal and Nasedo avoided Max, they had complete freedom.

Both Kal and Nasedo, the shapeshifters, knew and understood the concepts of good and evil.

Citrus, one doesn't need to have emotions (or human emotions) to uderstand and manipulate people's behaviour. Research in the field of personality disorder indicate that people with disorders that make them detached from emotions can excell in manipulating other people emotions, with psychopaths as an extreme case... so, an alien, with no human emotions, without the human concepts of good & evil, seeing people just as means to ends, mere pawns in the chessgame, is not contradictory to observing the effects of emotions on humans and being able to manipulate human emotions... it allows him more latitude, since Nasedo as no human emotions whatsoever, he doesn't really care for no one...

Kivar, the deal with Kivar, Kal... is different. It's different because the story changed in season 2. We know that, and we know why... it's show business, the show just became more mainstream, and the people writing the stories changed, and had different ideas. They tried to keep some continuity, but we know they had poor results -- just check the archives :lol: ;) I mean, the first thing they've done was getting rid of Nasedo :lol: that made things easier :lol:

But in both cases, they were working to protect other aliens. Nasedo said he killed the humans to protect the Royal Four. Humans seemed worthless to the aliens we've seen on the show- like humans usually don't mind killing smaller animals.

Nasedo and Kal were both skilled liars.

Nasedo didn’t kill to protect the Royal Four. Nasedo first killed humans, in order to locate the Royal Four. Nasedo deliberately left silver handprints on the bodies of his murder victims, in order to generate interest in silver handprint incidents. Nasedo didn’t know where the Royal Four were, when he and Kal arrived on Earth around 1959 on the beautiful, fully functional spaceship that was hidden in the convenience store basement.

Nasedo killed the agent in downtown Roswell in daylight, leaving a silver handprint on the body, in order to frame Max for the silver handprint murders. Nasedo earlier murdered Hank, Michael’s foster dad, so Michael would be jailed. If Nasedo had wanted to protect Michael, he would have changed into a policeman and taken Hank away quietly. Instead, Nasedo arranged things so that Michael was implicated in Hank’s disappearance. Nasedo later pretended to be Hank, so that he could establish that Hank was alive. Nasedo, a shapeshifter, could again implicate Michael in Hank’s murder at a later date.

Nasedo worked for Kivar. Nasedo didn’t protect any of the Royal Four. Nasedo got Michael jailed. Nasedo got Max captured.

If Max hadn’t been captured at the carnival, Max would have been captured later, because Nasedo had successfully framed Max for the silver handprint murders. Nasedo lied to Tess about Kivar. Kivar wasn’t Tess’ ally. Kivar wanted to kill Tess’ child.

Nasedo lied when he said he was a protector. Nasedo worked for Kivar.

I hate to interrupt the discussion of whether knowledge of evil can be learned (sounds like we're almost back to the Garden of Eden here), but I noticed some things when I happened to catch Roswell at lunch today.

There was a marathon, and I tuned in to Crash.
Most of you may recall that this episode was panned by many fans on the basis that it had nothing to do with the then-current plot line.
Seeing it today, 2 years+ later, I realize that it was intended to prepare the way for Season 4, in which they would travel around doing good deeds.

Also, when Max and Michael have their first discussion about the crash, in which Max wants to leave it alone and Michael wants to investigate, behind Max there's a sign that says "Welcome to Earth," which reflects his current Earth-friendly outlook.
Behind Michael it says "Notice," which also fits with his motivation in the scene.

I never noticed the signs in Crash, shapeshifter. Thanks for pointing those out. I sometimes wonder if all the little details that we find are really deliberate on the part of the show.

I question the statement that the momogram might have been a mindwarp. If so, that's a huge hole in the plot. That was never speculated on in season 2 or 3. You would think that something that major would not be left hanging without at least some explanation. Their whole quest to return to Antar and save their people would have been a hopeless joke if that were true. It would have meant that they spent all that time being concerned about something that really didn't exist.

It also would have meant that any references to their previous roles as king, queen, princess and soldier were equally worthless. There were numerous occasions where their past was referred to. In season 2, by Nicholas, Greer, and the aliens at the summit. In season 3 by Kivar and Kal.

I can't see the momogram being a mindwarp if everything in season 2 and 3 reinforced the story that the four were royalty, slain in their past lives, and recreated to one day save their people. That would be such a big a plot hole that the story wouldn't make sense to me. If they'd said something in the show to back up that theory, I could better accept it, but I don't recall any such dialogue. Is there anything in the show that leads you to believe that the momogram was a mindwarp?

The message from Isabel and Max’s Antarian mother was received in the same episode that Tess showed she could mindwarp people simultaneously. So, naturally, some viewers wondered if the message was faked, especially since Tess was in love with Max and wanted to be with him.

I agree with you, Algieba, that the message was genuine. I think the viewers, who wanted Max and Liz to be a couple, chose to believe that the message from Isabel and Max’s mother was a mindwarp. Otherwise, if the message were real, then maybe Tess and Max were meant to be together, rather than Liz and Max. From the idea that the message was a mindwarp also came the idea the Liz, not Tess, was the fourth Royal. Again, the reason for the theory was to prove that Liz and Max were meant to be together, rather than Tess and Max.

The orb signal was intercepted by alien devices around the world. Brody also received the signal on an alien device. So the orbs really did work, function, and communicate.

Things in the message proved to be true. Enemies really had come to Earth, including the Copper Summit Skins, Kal, and Nasedo. Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess really only knew who were their enemies by how people behaved. (Courtney, who was a Skin, helped save everyone, by sacrificing her life. So, she wasn’t an enemy.)

Michael looked like Grandpa Dupree who was human. So, human DNA really was part of the mixture that made the Royal Four hybrids, as the message said. Max really was King, as confirmed by the V-shaped symbol generated when the emissary tested Max. The same symbol appeared on Michael’s chest, after Max died. So Michael really had been close to Max in their previous lives, like a second-in-command, who took over after Max’s death. Max was able to take the symbol from Michael, proving that Max was the rightful king.

For fans who dislike Tess, the message’s authenticity probably will remain in doubt, at least as regards who was the bride in the message. However, Future Liz and Future Max believed that Tess was one of the Royal Four, even though they knew that Tess could mindwarp. They also knew that Tess hadn’t harmed Liz, in order to get with Max. They also knew that Earth had fallen without Tess’ help.


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Roswell allowed room for speculation, as the episodes unfolded. Although part or the entire message could have been a mindwarp, it seems unlikely to have been a mindwarp. The content of the message proved to be true.

Brody/Larek remembered Max and Tess being in love with each other in their past lives, at a time when Tess was unable to mindwarp, because the alien device Brody activated rendered Max and Tess’ powers useless. Liz and other humans were unaffected by the device. In this lifetime, Liz was human and Max was alien.

I think a lot of them are. For one thing, on The X Files, the show David Nutter worked on before Roswell, reportedly every background detail (dates, place names, etc.) was chosen to have some significance, even if it was meaningful only to someone on the crew. So when Roswell started, my wife and I were on the lookout for such things, and soon thought we saw many examples. Old-timers on this thread will recall an abundance of discussion on this topic. (GraceKel, are you still out there?)

More recently, there has been confirmation of the idea that many background items were not random but arranged with care. On the S1 DVD (commentary on episode Crazy), Shiri Appleby and Majandra Delfino mentioned this practice, and attributed it to assistant director Lou Race.

Shapeshifter, I'm sure I (we) comented extensively on this at the time. Remember all my snarky comments about "The A-lien Team"?

:wave: Nemo! Long time, no see!

C&V:
I didn't see Liz's "flash" of Maxcedo as being an empty void; rather that he didn't care. I think he was more of a psychopath than anyhing else. This may be due to his captivity by the "Army" after the crash in 1947. (Where are people getting this about him arriving in 1959?) Now, Tic-tac definitely knew right from wrong, and chose to do good.

The aliens who abducted Grandpa Dupree disregarded his wishes and feelings. However, Grandpa Dupree was allowed to return to his previous life.
Right. He was only an experimental "subject" briefly, and (judging by the way they treated Brody) probably got a first-rate physical exam and treatment for anything that ailed him. They could havekilled him, after all.

Nasedo worked for Kivar. Nasedo didn’t protect any of the Royal Four. Nasedo got Michael jailed. Nasedo got Max captured.
And freed Max again. If the story about Tess needing Max's baby were true, then they'd need him alive and free enough to breed her, not in jars of formaldehyde in Area 51. (Have I mentioned lately that I think that whole story is a mindwarp from Nikolas?)
Michael was an accident; he was just sloppy in loosing his knife.

Greenglow:
Although your theory of (the alien devices) being placed in Brody's way because he was an avatar for an ambassador, and the ambassadar needed that equipment is good... In the summit, we never see any device from the other avatars...
Well, no; but we don't see Brody's either. Presumably it's in his pocket?

As for the hybrid thing, I've maintained that their bodies are basicly human. It's their "essence", or soul, or whatever you want to call what's written on an infant's tabula rasa, that came from their previous lives. Max's onion cells :rolleyes: could be a "marker" to positively identify the King, or just another non-science fiction foulup. (Probably the latter, IMHO.) We never saw those on any of the other podsters!

lol could be :lol:

Ah-ha. So that's how we got started on this. ;)
Thanks for that info too. I finally bought the S1 DVD, but still need to fix my DVD drive or buy a player.

***

Mmm...yes, but he was still 'encoded' to obey Max. I suspect he only entered into a deal with Kvar because it suited his own agenda--which was probably to be free of Max.

Nasedo knew that Pierce wouldn’t kill Max. Also, since Nasedo could impersonate anyone, he could order Pierce not to kill Max. Nasedo knew that Pierce would study Max—not kill him—just as Pierce wanted to study Liz.

Kivar wanted a Royal, lineal child who could inherit the Seal of Antar. Nasedo planned for the Royal Four to be sequentially captured and held in the old military hospital. They would each be drugged as Max had been, rendering their powers useless. Isabel and Tess would be impregnated with cells from Michael and Max. Nasedo would wait until a lineal child, with Royal, Antarian blood would be born. Possibly, the child had to be male.

The child had to have Antarian blood. Tess’ child by Max was unsuitable, because the child was fully human. Humans couldn’t carry the Seal. Max had lost the Seal when he died, because the Seal couldn’t transfer into Clayton’s human body.

Because the Royal Four were now hybrids, it might take many pregnancies before a suitable child, with Antarian blood, who could inherit the Seal was born. Hence, Nasedo planned to use the old hospital to hold Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess, until the suitable heir was born. Once the heir was born, Max would be killed, and the Seal would pass on to the heir. Kivar would then control the heir, who would be able to bring people back to life, as Max could, when Max had the Seal. Kivar would then control the child, who could extend Kivar’s life and legitimize Kivar’s rule.


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Actually, greenglow said “Citrus, that scene in MTTM, where Liz gets a flash from Nasedo and the only thing that she catchs is the dark, cold, void, is there to show visually that Nasedo doesn't have feelings like we know them. So there's nothing there for Liz to see.”

I didn’t say that. greenglow said that. In fact, as I posted previous to greenglow’s comment, the screencaps from Momo’s Roswell show that Liz saw a flash of a dead woman, indicating that Nasedo killed people. Liz didn’t see “an empty void”, which greenglow stated.

These are the screencaps I posted earlier. The flashes included the dead woman.



________________________________________________________________

Kal and Nasedo began killing people in 1959. They were both shapeshifters, who didn’t know where the Royal Four were, when they arrived around 1959 on the beautiful, fully functional spaceship that was hidden in the convenience store basement. Nasedo left silver handprints on people he killed, knowing that the true King healed people near death, leaving a silver handprint. Nasedo had to generate human interest in silver handprint reports, because he didn’t know where the Royal Four were.


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The person who ate tic tacs didn’t help Max, Michel, or Isabel. Amy and Maria got Michael out of jail—not Nasedo or any other shapeshifter. Nasedo got Michael thrown in jail, when he could have shapedshifted into a policeman and taken Hank away quietly, if he had wanted to help Michael. Nasedo had saved Hank’s corpse, so Michael would be blamed for Hank’s death. Nasedo worked for Kivar.

After Amy and Maria cleared Michael in Hank’s disappearance, Nasedo later pretended to be Hank, so he could again frame Michael for Hank’s murder. He buried Hank’s body to use later. Topolsky escaped from Washington, D.C., which interrupted Nasedo’s plans. Nasedo had to keep Max, Michael, and Isabel from believing Tolopsky, so he pretended to be Dr. Margolin. As Dr. Margolin, Nasedo told the Sheriff and the group that Topolsky was crazy, so they wouldn’t believe her. Nasedo didn’t want them to get the other orb from Topolsky. If Nasedo had been helping them, he would have told them about the Special Unit being after them. Instead, Nasedo told them that Topolsky was crazy, when actually, Tolopsky told the truth. Nasedo-Dr. Margolin worked for Kivar.

Nasedo had to move on to getting Max captured, because Tess showed and told Nasedo that she believed and trusted Max. Nasedo had told Tess that he was working for Kivar, because Nasedo had needed Tess’ help. Nasedo had to stay away from Max as much as possible, because Nasedo, a shapeshifter, had to do what the true King said. Kal was supposed to work with Nasedo, but Kal wanted to stay on Earth.

Nasedo didn’t free Max from the white room. Michael, Isabel, Tess, Liz, and Sheriff Valenti got Max and Michael freed.

Nasedo got Max captured. Nasedo knew that even if Max wasn’t captured at the carnival, Max would have been captured later. Nasedo had successfully framed Max for all the silver handprint murders.

Nasedo planned for Michael to be captured next at the old military hospital. Nasedo knew that Michael wasn’t a Special Unit agent. Nasedo didn’t leave the white room with Max and Michael. Nasedo stood right next to Pierce, as Pierce came out of the mindwarp. Nasedo chatted to Pierce, and he didn’t kill Pierce. Nasedo could take Pierce’s place or impersonate Pierce's superior, after Michael, Isabel, and Tess were sequentially captured. Michael’s quick thinking and Sheriff Valenti’s timely shooting foiled Nasedo’s plans.

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digitaldeacon noticed a detail and has a question.

Actually, she saw both. She saw the Hubble's wife dead body & the dark cold void. Remember Liz could get 2 kinds of flashes from Max... memories or emotions. Liz's couldn't pick up emotions from Nasedo, since there were none, but she could pick up memories...

Oh, I'm too tired :yawn: to write tonight!!

I think the fact that Nasedo had sex with Whittaker over an extended period of time, of his own choice, shows that Nasedo had emotions. Whether or not Nasedo cared about Whittaker, sex is an emotional activity. Nasedo got something out of it.

Nasedo also collected treasures from all over the world, which indicates that Nasedo had an emotional attachment to things. When Nasedo took Liz, he drove a new, expensive convertible, showing that Nasedo had desires, which he indulged. When Nasedo left Roswell to replace Pierce, his treasures evidently went with him. The house Tess lived in after Nasedo left was practically bare.

Nasedo showed emotions, as well. He understood how to use them.

Nasedo didn’t mind killing the agent in downtown Roswell or killing Sheila Hubble. Nasedo’s emotions weren’t affected by killing humans he wasn't involved with. He also wasn't affected by killing them, because they were humans and Nasedo was an alien. Likewise, some humans are unaffected by killing other species, like fish or cows or chickens, but the humans still have emotions. Nasedo, although alien, had emotions, too. Nasedo chose to work for Kivar.

Kal also had emotions. He cared whether he lived on Earth or on another planet. He cared whether Max told him what to do or not. Both Kal and Nasedo had emotions.

___________________________________________________________________

Sorry to interrupt the flow, but I have a question related to RBI more than any other thread here and I have been watching and waiting for a month or two. Just haven't seen a good time to break in.

After Max healed Liz, she later developed "powers." In "Graduation", in the dessert, Kyle said he was going with them "to be with his kind when these weird changes occurred." [loose quote] Okay, Sheriff Valenti stays as a deputy in Roswell, but he had been healed of a gunshot in the episode "Chant Down Babylon" just like Liz and Kyle were healed by Max of gunshot wounds. Why was there no mention of the Jim Valenti developing "powers" later?
The kids in the hospital were all healed by Max of cancer. Will they develop powers later or is it just gunshot victims that develop powers?

I've read many of shapeshifter's archived files, however, time forbids me from reading all. They answer many other questions I once had. These questions may have been answered somewhere before, but I missed it.

Thank you and again very sorry to interrupt.
Bill

Don't worry about "interrupting the flow". We often have several flows going at once; and I'm always glad to answer questions. If there are answers, that is; or gripe if there aren't.

It's been argued that to give a person Powers, Max had to bring them back from being closer to death than simply healing injuries or illness; he has to "jump start" their life with his own, hence the transfer of Powers. In this case, the children would not get Powers, and Valenti might not, depending on how "dead" he was.

I should point out that most of this is speculation, because the writers and producers of Roswell did not seem to care anything for continuity after S1.

Citrus & Vine:
Kal and Nasedo began killing people in 1959. They were both shapeshifters, who didn’t know where the Royal Four were, when they arrived around 1959 on the beautiful, fully functional spaceship that was hidden in the convenience store basement. Nasedo left silver handprints on people he killed, knowing that the true King healed people near death, leaving a silver handprint. Nasedo had to generate human interest in silver handprint reports, because he didn’t know where the Royal Four were.

If you recall, Mr. Harding was supposed to have been captured by the Army and held in that old Army base after his ship crashed in 1947. We've also speculated that Tic-tac was injured somehow, hence his (her?) need to take medication (?) after shapeshifting. We saw the two aliens in "Summer of '47", you'll recall. I don't recall anything on the show which stated that Mr. Harding, or any other shapeshifter for that matter arrived in the convenience store saucer. Such was our understanding a year ago; I don't understand how it was altered.

By the way, I do not believe that the shapeshifters were programmed to obey Max, just that they were military folks who had a duty to follow him. Kal never said he was programmed; it was just a speculation on Max's part. Kal could have concluded that Max was less of a threat (or nuisance) if he just humored him and sent him on his way.

In 1947, Hal saw two aliens who fiercely protected two sets of pods. Both aliens looked like aliens. Neither alien shapeshifted into human form.

Pierce told Max that two aliens had been captured. Pierce said one escaped and one died in captivity. So the two aliens that had been captured couldn’t have been both Kal and Nasedo, because both of them were still alive. Since both shapeshifters hadn’t been captured, and neither Kal nor Nasedo protected any of the podsters, we can reasonably doubt that even one shapeshifter had been captured.

Nasedo told Michael and Isabel that he had escaped the old military hospital. He had to give a convincing reason for explaining how he knew so much about the facility, in order to get Michael and Isabel to trust him. Nasedo was a liar, who wanted Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess captured and held in the old hospital, so he could get a Royal, lineal heir for Kivar.

Nasedo had killed people leaving silver handprints on the bodies, in order to locate the Royal Four. Kal, in contrast, didn’t plant silver handprints on bodies. Kal wanted to stay on Earth.

Nasedo didn’t know where the Royal Four were, because Nasedo and Kal hadn’t come to Earth until years after the 1947 crash.

Nasedo couldn’t find Max, Michael, and Isabel, even though he found Tess, because Nasedo didn’t know when the other three had left the podchamber. It didn’t occur to Nasedo that they had left on their own and been raised by humans. Nasedo didn’t check news media or adoption agencies in New Mexico for reports on found children. Nasedo didn’t find the other three, even though they lived in the vicinity, and even though the story of their being found in the desert was well known.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Kal blew his cover, because he didn’t want Max to get the spaceship, which he knew could fly. (If the ship couldn’t fly, Kal had no reason to risk Max finding him.)

Kal got Max arrested, which the audience knows, but Max doesn’t know. Kal wasn’t a protector. Kal tried numerous times to kill Max. Likewise, Nasedo intended harm to Max, by impersonating Max, leaving a silver handprint on the agent he killed, notifying police and the Special Unit, and getting Max captured. :)

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Welcome Brown Eyes! People here are happy for questions and thoughts anytime! :)

You asked, “Why was there no mention of the Jim Valenti developing ‘powers’ later?”

Ava told Liz that Max changed her, since Max brought her back to life. Ava proved to be right. Liz had been changed. She developed powers.

I think no mention was made of Jim Valenti developing powers later, because there wasn’t a good place to mention it.

In the episode in which Max healed Jim, Max died. In the next episode, Isabel nearly died. Kyle wanted to heal Isabel, but he didn’t have the power to do so. So, in neither Panacea nor Chant Down Babylon was there a good time to mention that Jim would develop powers later, especially since Kyle hadn’t shown any powers yet.

The next episodes, Who Died and Made You King, Crash, and Four Aliens and a Baby, also didn’t offer any opportunity to mention Jim Valenti developing powers.

In the next and final episode, Graduation, Kyle said he wanted to be with the group, when he changed.

Jim Valenti didn’t go with the group, even though he had been healed. Someone could have talked about Jim later developing powers then. However, in order to say that, a scene would have been changed.

I really love the goodbye scene between Kyle and his dad the way it is. I think the scene would have less impact, if it included talk about Jim developing powers later. Also, some fans prefer to think that Liz was uniquely healed, and that only Liz was changed by Max.

You also asked:

“The kids in the hospital were all healed by Max of cancer. Will they develop powers later or is it just gunshot victims that develop powers?”

Again, depending on whether or not the viewer wants Liz to be the only person to be changed by Max, some viewers say yes, they will develop powers, or, no, they won’t develop powers, because the kids weren’t on the very brink of dying.

Hand imprints were left on the children, as Mrs. Evans said. Liz also had a handprint from being healed. So, it seems possible that the children also will develop powers, even though they hadn’t been healed from gunshots.

I think it could be a great benefit to the future of Earth, if Kyle, Jim, and the children developed powers, too! :)

Thank you both, Citrus and Vine and Reggie for your thoughtful answers.
I'm like Mulder, that is, "I want to believe." What I want to believe is that in the end Liz is the true queen, wife of king Max, "here on Earth" no matter what happened before in another life. (A Dreamer) Since Max, Isabel & Michael chose the human side of their hybrid spirits, rather than the alien side as did Tess, then Liz is his true queen here on Earth. As earilier stated, "Ava said Liz was 'changed' when Max brought her back from the being near death." Therefore, Liz's powers will include healing, protection and/or all the royal powers as the true queen and soulmate to king Max. Especially since Tess is dead on Earth. No others of the "healed" group will have those powers as they are not of the royal family and definitely not soulmates to the king.

Oh, I'm not a deep thinker, I tend to skip over things I don't want to think about and sometimes don't understand, saying "it's not for me to know at this time."

Later and thanks again all.

:D I live in the picture world.

About the post-shapeshifting refreshmints:
When Nacedo transformed into the clown in Max to the Max, he ate cotton candy. Coincidence? Or shapeshifting nutritional supplement?

I don't recall him eating that much of it. Really, there's very little to cotton candy; it's mostly air. Still, an interesting point. We've never seen Mr. Harding eat after shapeshifting, although Tic-tac always did.

Kal didn’t eat tic tacs after shapeshifting.

Nasedo ate tic tacs before he buried Hank’s body. He also ate tic tacs after he shapeshifted, after burying Hank. He also ate tic tacs after he changed into the hiker with the backpack. (He wasn't shown to eat any tic tacs before he shapeshifted, as he had, before he buried Hank’s body.)

Nasedo was Ed Harding. He shapeshifted into Max’s form. He identified himself as Ed Harding to Liz. He ate cotton candy, before he sent the signal into the sky, and before he shapeshifted into a clown, after leaving the Mirror Maze.


Cotton candy has a lot of air. It also has 370 calories, according to Food Database at Women Fitness . Another site reports that a cone of cotton candy has about 100 calories. A third site reports that a bag of cotton candy contains 114 calories.

One Tic Tac has 2 calories. Each container has 40 pieces.

:)

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screencap from Momo’s Roswell

Hmmmm...Kal said he hadn't shapeshifted in, like, was it 30 years? He was very despondent about having to shapeshift. Maybe he didn't eat any sweets after because he was so bummed about the whole thing.

But it looks like just a little cotton candy would have as much junk as tic tacs. ;)

I think Kal lied to Max, when he said he hadn’t shapeshifted for 50 years.

If Kal spoke the truth, then he didn’t shapeshift after he killed Joey Ferrini, Jr. However, after killing Joey, there was a bright flash around Kal, just like there was when Nasedo shapeshifted.


To me, it makes more sense to say that Kal shapeshifted after he killed Joey.



BUNNY to Max: I turned my back to light a cigarette, and then there was this... It was blinding. And then Joey was dead.
MAX: You said you saw someone.
BUNNY: Yeah, yeah, there was this man- it was weird- it was like....He was glowing.
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screencaps from Momo’s Roswell

No, there were two shapeshifters; Kal makes three. The first one is the one that ate tic-tacs (hence the name). One theory was that they were wintergreen flavored, as oil of wintergreen is an analgesic related to asprin. It also is in liniments. After the exertion, Tic-tac needed a pain (or inflamation?) reliever of some sort. Ed Harding did quite a bit of shapeshifting without any medication.

As for the "flash", you may have something there. But Harding flashed hardly at all, while the flash when Joey was killed was "blinding". And let's remember that Kal claimed to have virtualy no senses, while Harding was definitely sensual. (Pass the mashed potatoes...) :lol:

There are two known shapeshifters—Nasedo and Kal. We could postulate a third shapeshifter, but doing so is unnecessary. To me, the story makes more sense to consider that the audience is shown two, rather than three shapeshifters.

Nasedo wanted Michael captured. He framed Michael for Hank’s disappearance, instead of taking Hank away quietly. Nasedo was carrying out Kivar’s wishes for a lineal, Royal heir with Antarian blood.

Later, the shapeshifter learned that Topolsky escaped from Washington. Topolsky had the other orb. We know that Nasedo didn't want the group to use the orbs. We also know that the shapeshifter who pretended to be Dr. Margolin and who ate tic tacs didn’t want Max, Michael, and Isabel to believe Topolsky. He wanted them to think that Topolsky was crazy. But Topolsky wasn't crazy. The two orbs really did work together and communicated, as Topolsky said.

Earlier, the tic tac eating shapeshifter pretended to be Hank and buried Hank's body, even though Michael had already been cleared and released. The shapeshifter wanted to frame Michael again for Hank's murder at a later date. The shapeshifter also approached Max and Liz, as they slept in the desert. The orb was beside Max. The shapeshifter was stopped from taking the orb by their awaking and seeing him. The shapeshifter didn’t want Max to have the orb or use the orb. Nasedo didn’t want the orbs used. The storyline makes more sense to me with Nasedo as the single shapeshifter in the episodes in Season One and Two. :)

...unless...the shapeshifter at the end of SH was really Kal (and he did lie about not shapeshifting even once or twice in all those years)?

The writers wrote the story of Roswell as a mystery for the audience to figure out. The audience is shown some things that the main characters are not shown. For example, the audience is shown that a shapeshifter pretended to be Hank and buried Hank’s body, after Michael was cleared of Hank’s torture and disappearance. The other characters don’t know that Hank is dead. The writers wanted the audience to figure out the motives of the shapeshifter, as the episodes unfolded. Why would the shapeshifter bury Hank’s body, after Michael was cleared? Why not let Hank's body be found, since Michael was in the clear? Why did the shapeshifter torture (or pretend to torture) Hank, instead of killing Hank quietly, so no one would know Hank didn’t just leave town? Why didn’t the shapeshifter pretend to be Hank, when Michael was in jail? Why would the same shapeshifter then show up in the desert, as Max and Liz slept?

Although we could postulate that Kal, instead of Nasedo, approached Max and Liz in the desert, after they found the orb, I think the story makes more sense to say the shapeshifter was Nasedo, not Kal.

Kal didn’t become overtly involved in Max’s life, until after Max and Liz stole the key to the spaceship.

Nasedo, on the other hand, became overtly involved in Max’s life two seasons earlier.

After the shapeshifter buried Hank, he changed into the form of the person who next approached Max and Liz, as they slept, with the orb next to Max. The shapeshifter who approached Max and Liz in the desert, as they slept, was the same shapeshifter who pretended to be Hank and buried Hank’s body.

If we say that person was Kal, we’re left with wondering why Kal, who had to do what Max told him, would bother to approach Max in the desert, only to chase Max away from the property. Kal didn’t become involved with Max, except to keep Max from the spaceship. Kal wasn’t carrying out Kivar’s wishes, whereas, Nasedo was carrying out Kivar’s wishes. Kal cared about the spaceship, whereas Nasedo cared about capturing Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess for Kivar. Nasedo didn’t want the group to use the orbs, whereas Kal didn’t say anything about the orbs.

Part of capturing the four for Kivar meant capturing Michael. And Michael was captured first.

Someone pretended that Hank was tortured, while Michael was away. It doesn’t make sense to me that Kal would torture (or pretend to torture) Hank. Kal wanted to enjoy his life and keep Max away from the spaceship. Nasedo wanted to capture Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess to get a Royal, lineal heir with Antarian blood for Kivar. Nasedo’s motives seem to match the motives of the shapeshifter who had pretended to be Hank and who approached Max, while Max slept in the desert with the orb. That shapeshifter wanted Michael captured and that shapeshifter exposed himself to Max, when Max slept in plain sight, with the orb next to him. So, to me, the story makes more sense to say that Nasedo, not Kal, had pretended to be Hank and later approached Max in the desert, as Max slept. :)

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Originally posted by Citrus and Vine
The writers wrote the story of Roswell as a mystery for the audience to figure out. The audience is shown some things that the main characters are not shown. For example, the audience is shown that a shapeshifter pretended to be Hank and buried Hank’s body, after Michael was cleared of Hank’s torture and disappearance. The other characters don’t know that Hank is dead.
...It doesn’t make sense to me that Kal would torture (or pretend to torture) Hank. Kal wanted to enjoy his life and keep Max away from the spaceship.

The shapeshifter (Tic-tac) kept Hank's body in his car for a few days? In a warm climate? I doubt that. :puke: More likely, that scene happened the night Hank died. The shapeshifter put in an appearence and gave a reason for Hank being "gone" to protect Michael: if Hank is OK, then Michael didn't do it. This would have happened as soon as he found out that Michael was a suspect, but not necessarily immediately. Then the body had to be concealed permanently, to preserve the illusion that there was no murder; nothing to investigate. And BTW: Hank had to die because he had seen Michael's powers, and probably would have revealed him.

Why would the same shapeshifter then show up in the desert, as Max and Liz slept?
The shapeshifter probably heard the orb's beacon, and wanted to make sure that it fell into the right hands; plus, he kept Max & Liz safe overnight and satisfied himself that Liz was a member in good standing of the "IKAA Club".

Kal didn’t become overtly involved in Max’s life, until after Max and Liz stole the key to the spaceship.

Nasedo, on the other hand, became overtly involved in Max’s life two seasons earlier.

Kal didn't exist until JK needed to invent him for Third Season, to operate the "new" flyng saucer. Let's be clear: there is a continuity disconnect betwen S1 & S2, and the mess that was S3. Furthermore, we know that Mr. Harding stayed close to Tess, elsewhere; so he was unavailible to be in the places that Tic-tac was.

Nasedo wanted to capture Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess to get a Royal, lineal heir with Antarian blood for Kivar. Nasedo’s motives seem to match the motives of the shapeshifter who had pretended to be Hank and who approached Max, while Max slept in the desert with the orb. That shapeshifter wanted Michael captured and that shapeshifter exposed himself to Max, when Max slept in plain sight, with the orb next to him. So, to me, the story makes more sense to say that Nasedo, not Kal, had pretended to be Hank and later approached Max in the desert, as Max slept.
No, the SS who killed Hank made a point of giving Michael an alibi, and did not act against Max when Max was exposed and asleep. What possible advantage woud a hostile shapeshifter get by just watching M&L overnight? He didn't even "expose" himelf as anything other than human! This is non-hostile behavior, so (according to your hypothesis) couldn't be "Nacedo"/Harding. This is Tic-tac, the benevolent watcher.

“Dr. Margolin” changed into the hiker and ate tic tacs. The tic tac eating shapeshifter (Nasedo) lied to the group about Topolsky. Topolsky wasn’t crazy. Topolsky told the truth. Nasedo was the liar. Nasedo didn’t want the group to use the orbs. Lying to the group wasn’t “benevolent”.

Likewise, the tic tac eating shapeshifter (Nasedo) didn’t protect Max or Liz in the desert, as they slept. He wasn’t “benevolent”.

Instead, the shapeshifter (Nasedo) approached them. The audience sees the shadow fall over Liz and Max, indicating that the shapeshifter approached them. The shapeshifter wanted to steal the orb. He didn’t call out to them, until after they awoke. Their waking stopped him. He could no longer steal the orb, because he had to obey Max. He couldn’t risk Max telling him to stop or telling him to tell the truth. He had to stay away from Max as much as possible, because the shapeshifters, as the audience learns in Season Three, had to carry out Max’s direct instructions. The shapeshifter (Nasedo) chased them away, so Max wouldn’t tell him what to do.



Likewise, the tic tac eating shapeshifter (Nasedo) didn’t “give Michael an alibi.” Michael was already cleared. Maria and Amy spoke up for Michael—not the shapeshifter. They gave Michael the alibi—not the shapeshifter.

The shapeshifter hadn’t been busy burying the body, while Michael was in jail. Instead, the shapeshifter buried Hank after Michael was released and after the shapeshifter pretended to be Hank.

The shapeshifter could have pretended to be Hank to get Michael out. But he didn’t. The shapeshifter could have pretended to be a policeman and taken Hank away quietly, but he didn’t. The shapeshifter got Michael jailed by waking the neighbors with Hank’s tortured cries.

Nasedo didn’t stay with Tess every moment. Later, he stopped trusting Tess, when Tess confronted him about killing people. Tess showed that she turned against Nasedo by believing Max and by taking Max, Michael, and Isabel to the podchamber, without Nasedo’s permission. Nasedo couldn’t use Tess’ help anymore, because he couldn’t trust her anymore. Nasedo didn’t phone Tess to tell her he would be away for a while. Before, Nasedo had notified Tess when he would be away from her. The day Nasedo framed Max for all the silver handprint murders, he didn’t tell Tess anything. He couldn’t trust Tess.



Nasedo framed Michael for Hank’s torture and disappearance. When Michael got out of jail, Nasedo pretended to be Hank again, so he could again frame Michael for Hank’s murder. The body in Hank’s trunk wasn’t deteriorated. Decomposition takes time. Also, cool conditions, like air conditioning or refrigeration, inhibit decomposition.

Nasedo, the tic tac eating shapeshifter, got Michael captured, just as he later intentionally got Max captured.

Nasedo tried to steal the orb from Max in the desert, but couldn’t, because Liz and Max awoke. Nasedo had to chase Max away, because Max could tell him what to do.

Nasedo lied to the group about Topolsky, because Topolsky had the other orb. Topolsky wasn’t crazy. She told the truth. Nasedo, the tic tac eating shapeshifter, was the liar.

Nasedo didn’t want them to use the orbs. Nasedo worked for Kivar. Nasedo wanted Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess captured and held in the old military hospital, until a Royal, lineal heir with Antarian blood was produced. Max would then be killed and the Seal would pass on to the heir.

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screencaps from Momo’s Roswell

Didn't Ava say that humans change when they are healed ? or something like that ? Meaning Ava knew that it happened before, that humans have been healed before and have changed.

Therefore, Liz, Kyle, the cancer children in Phoenix, Jim, should all develop powers, Liz being the first because she was the first healed ?

In Max In The City:So, most of us figure that's different than 'just healing.'
Though I don't see the difference since Liz 'had' to 'look at' Max before he could heal her, which, if she were dead, would imply that Max can command the dead to rise, er, uh, at least look.

LIz was still alive when Max healed her, it was just more romantic for her to write "5 days ago, i died". She was lying on the floor, suffering but still breathing, with her eyes open, and she looked alive, not dead.

Now, Alex was dead, and Max couldn't bring him back, therefore, i doubt that Max can bring people back from the dead. People near death, yes, but not dead people.

You know, that's one of those things... plot ideas that are brought up in season 2 and than dropped... in season 3 they picked up the "Liz powers" idea only because it had been sort of seen "in action" in that episode... the rest... well... I suppose the core of it is that in season 2 (just check the commentaries on dvd) they were working episode-by-episode and not so much in a continuity, every episode is like a different story... and they never really decided what they wanted either... until the "hybrid chronicles" it was turned into a "buffy"-like show, from then on something else... so...

Well, it was suggested, at least in S3, that Kyle could develop powers, too, but later on, since he was healed months after Liz. Kyle talked about it at least twice, so between that and Ava, we can conclude that those who were near death but were healed, have been changed.

What's more problematic : the cancer children in Phoenix. They were dying, not immediately, like Liz and Kyle, but still it was a matter of weeks for them. They should develop powers too, but since there was no S4, we'll never know, we just can guess.

xmag, definitely "problematic," and in more ways than one.
I used to imagine the cancer-cured kids could figure into a Roswell Next Generation--powers and all.
But the ethical implications are a bit staggering. Though not really any more than Max having shapeshifters whose DNA was encoded to make them his personal slaves.

I think it's interesting that Madam Vivien's predictions ended up being so way off the mark. They have an epi in Season Two starting out with consulting a fortune teller who ends up being wrong on two of her three predictions.

The only right one was that Max would choose Liz. That one was right in both time lines.

The wrong ones were about Michael and Maria and Alex and Isabel.

Madam Vivien stated that Michael and Maria's relationship would last 48 hours tops. By the end of Season Three we are led to believe that they end up together permanently.

As for Alex and Isabel, even though they do not end up together, they did have a carnal relationship, contrary to Madam Vivien's prediction.

At first I concluded that M.V. was correct because Alex and Isabel never married or consumated their relationship. But I decided I might be interpreting the definition of carnal incorrectly so I looked it up in the dictionary. Mine says that carnal means 1.of the flesh; material; worldly 2. sensual or sexual.

That definition could describe Alex and Isabel's relationship at the time of the prom. It had not advanced past the kissing stage but that prom kiss was definitely not a friendly, nonsexual kiss.

For M.V. to be right about Alex, Isabel, Maria and Michael we are suppose to believe that in the first time line Michael and Maria split up and Alex and Isabel were just friends and they all followed whatever path M.V. envisioned they followed. Since they all came to Liz and Max' wedding, we know at least that they were together. That doesn't prove anything more than an enduring friendship with Max and Liz but they at least appear to be couples.

I find it hard to believe that the intervention of FMax is what made the change in M.V.'s predictions about the others. I can see it impacting Max and Liz but I can't figure how that would effect the others.

Interestingly, Kyle was not invited to the wedding in the first time line, but he ended up as one of the six who stayed together at the end in the second time line.

In Season Three, M.V. tells them they are all in danger and warns Michael to "remember the love", both very general predicitons that could fit multiple outcomes. I agree with Michael's assessment of M.V.

Hey, I'm back. ;)

Back with more questions. The Dupes. Do we know anything about them? Who was their guardian? Wasn't Nasado or Kal. They knew so much more about their home planet. Where did they get this information? Wonder how they were contacted by other aliens when it came time for that summit?

I agree with that. For example, how could FM's visit lead to Isabel wanting to be with Alex, while M.V said that nothing would ever happened.

Same with Michael and Maria, those two were always on and off, so breaking up wasn't so surprising. Besides, just like always, things ended up ok between them in Timeline 2, so why the 48 hours in Timeline 1 ? The same scene with Courtney happened in both timelines, and Maria understood that Courtney was a skin and forgave Michael anyway, so why wouldn't they make up in T1 ? I can't believe that Max and Liz having sex = Michael and Maria never making up.

Unless, of course, M.V meant that they had 48 hours before they broke up, until they made up and broke up, made up and broke up and well, you see what i mean.

About FM impacting on Max and Liz, yes, but Tess, too, and unfortunately Alex. In T1, Tess never stood a chance, and left Roswell. Alex was alive. T2, Tess and Max got closer, and Tess then decided to use Alex for her plan.

But it's because there was this triangle Max/Liz/Tess, and Alex was a indirect casualty of FM's visit. But still, i can't understand how FM could have an impact on Isabel, to make her change her mind about Alex. As you said, they kissed, and not a friendly kiss. They went to prom, and she was the one seeking him out.

And Michael and Maria were back together, what, one month later ? for Christmas, they were together, so, i really don't see how Max and Liz having sex or not could have on impact on some characters and their relationships.

:wave: xmag and Algieba!

Regarding Madame Vivian’s readings, things may have gone as she predicted, in the first timeline.

In the previous timeline, Max chose Liz. They became inseparable. They married in Las Vegas.

In this timeline, Alex died younger than he had in the previous timeline. In this timeline, Alex wasn’t alive when Max and Liz were 19.

I think the kisses between Alex and Isabel at the prom were romantic kisses. I don’t think the kisses would be termed carnal. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language defines carnal as “1. Relating to the physical and especially sexual appetites: carnal desire. 2. Worldly or earthly; temporal: the carnal world. 3. Of or relating to the body or flesh; bodily: carnal remains.” Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, 10th Edition defines carnal as “1 a : relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites b : marked by sexuality”

Madame Vivian told Alex about Isabel, “You are a wonderful friend, her foundation. You will never have a carnal relationship...”. Alex responded, “Oh, come on, Madame Vivian, there's gotta be something in those leaves...a few moments of pure lust? Anything? Uh...Story of my life.”

I think, based on the definition of carnal and based on Alex’s words, Madame Vivian’s prediction was that Alex and Isabel would be friends, and they would not have sex. The romantic kisses at the prom didn’t lead to sex. As Madame Vivian predicted, Alex and Isabel never had a carnal relationship in this timeline.

In this timeline, Isabel saw a more confident Alex, who had traveled to “Sweden”. He intrigued her. In the previous timeline, if Alex and Isabel went to the prom together, their romantic moments at the prom might have again returned to friendship only, just as their relationship did, after their sophomore year. The psychic’s prediction about Alex and Isabel’s relationship might have been accurate in the previous timeline, too.


Probably, in both timelines, Maria was very upset finding Courtney in a towel, with Michael at Courtney’s place. So, in the previous timeline, Maria may have stopped wanting a romantic relationship with Michael, within the 48 hours, as the psychic predicted.

Michael and Maria might never have become intimate in the first timeline, since Michael wouldn't have made a candlelight dinner to tell Maria that he would be leaving Earth. Michael wouldn't have shown Maria his true feelings, since he wasn't leaving Earth. Michael and Maria wouldn't have become a couple, like they did in the current timeline.

Michael and Maria and the others might not have heard about Whitaker’s funeral, until after the fact. Since Max didn’t see Liz and Kyle in bed together, Max and Liz might have been meeting together at school, rather than Max meeting with Michael, Maria, Isabel, and Tess that morning. Max and Liz had intended to go to the Gomez concert, rather than investigate Whitaker’s death immediately. Max might not have decided to look into Whitaker’s death, as the group did in this timeline. Michael and Maria might not have investigated Courtney together, in the previous timeline. Max, Michael, and Liz might have investigated Courtney together. Or Max might have put all investigations on hold until after he and Liz returned from the Gomez concert. Michael and Maria might have been friends only. They might not have become a couple, in the previous timeline.

In the current timeline, Maria and Michael became a couple. Later, Maria broke up with Michael.

Future Liz, Future Max, and Liz helped to change the timeline. Things happened differently in the current timeline. Liz and Max didn’t become inseparable the night of the Gomez concert. In the current timeline, Max and Tess became a couple. Max chose to leave Earth with Tess, even knowing that Liz hadn’t been intimate with Kyle.

Madame Vivian’s predications didn’t come exactly true in this timeline. In this timeline, Maria and Michael became a couple for a while. In this timeline, Max and Liz didn’t become a couple again, until after Max and Tess had become a couple.

From one change in the timeline came many changes. Isabel saw Alex differently, after he returned from "Sweden". Maria and Michael became a couple for a while. Max and Tess had a child together.

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:wave: Brown Eyes!

The Dupes had the names of the Royals who were killed on Antar. Other than that, anything they were told about their home planet could have been told to them by Nicholas.

The Dupes were the decoys. They weren’t the real Royals.

Brody, who had a trilithium-amplification generator (pentagon-shaped device), received a signal on the device, after the Royals used to orbs and sent out a signal.

Brody was able to track the signal to Roswell. The Summit delegates and Nicholas, in contrast, didn’t know that the Royal Four were in Roswell. Instead, they contacted the Dupes, the decoys, in New York.

I think that the signal from the orbs triggered a false trail to the Dupes in New York, thus protecting the real location of the real Royals. Nicholas and the Summit delegates found the Dupes, but not the real Royals.

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:wave: shapeshifter!

Max didn’t know who the shapeshifters were, unless they directly interfered with his life.

The shapeshifters weren’t personal slaves to true ruler.

As long as the shapeshifters stayed away from Max, they didn’t have to do anything Max wanted. Only if the shapeshifters made themselves apparent to Max, and only if Max personally gave them a direct, specific order did the shapeshifters have to do as Max said. Also, the shapeshifters couldn’t personally kill Max.

Morally, the only way Max (or other true rulers) could protect themselves from shapeshifters was to require them to follow direct orders from the true ruler and not personally kill the true ruler.

The alternative way for removing the threat from shapeshifters would be to kill all shapeshifters. (Not you, of course! You are a good and kind shapeshifter! :))

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After discovering that Courtney was a skin, Michael went to Maria right away, the morning after, to tell her, and they were back to their Mulder and Scully routine 24 hours after the towel incident.

So, i don't see how Max and Liz having sex or not, could change that, the fact that they were back together. I mean, investigating was part of Michael and Maria's relationship, so whether or not Max wanted Courtney to be investigated or not, Michael would have been looking for answers. And barely 48 hours after finding him with Courtney, Maria refered to Michael as her "bad groomed boyfriend" or something like that.

Now, Isabel and Alex are much more complexed. Mainly because their relationship seemed to develop much more lately than Michael and Maria (those two were in an on/off relationship, and were back together less than 24 hours after the towel incident), and more slowly. Many things happened or didn't happen between TEOTW and prom, things that could have changed Isabel's perception.

Hello again xmag! :wave:

Future Max told Liz, “…what's about to happen over the next few days is critical to the history of this planet.”

Liz going to bed with Kyle changed things.

As a result, Max met with the group the next morning to discuss Courtney. He didn't plan to go to the Gomez concert with Liz any more. He dealt with alien problems.

While in the classroom, they heard about Whitaker’s announced death. Meeting together in the classroom without Liz and seeing the TV announcement of Whitaker’s death that morning may not have happened in the previous timeline.

In the previous timeline, Maria probably didn’t check out Courtney with Michael, since she was angry with Michael. They wouldn’t have been investigating Courtney together, if they hadn’t heard the fake car accident report covering up Whitaker’s death that morning.


Things happened differently, in the previous timeline. Michael and Maria probably didn’t go to Copper Summit with Courtney, in the previous timeline. Courtney probably didn’t destroy the Skins’ husks, in the previous timeline.

In the current timeline, Maria and Michael were back together at Christmas, after the Courtney towel incident, and after they worked together. That might not have happened in the previous timeline. Madame Vivian might have been right in her prediction about Michael and Maria’s relationship, in the first timeline.

Or, Madame Vivian might have been wrong about Michael and Maria’s relationship, in the previous timeline. :)

In any case, Maria broke up with Michael in this timeline. Madame Vivian’s prediction was, “This relationship (Michael and Maria’s) will not endure.” Whether or not Madame Vivian was right or wrong about the 48 hours, Michael and Maria’s romance didn’t endure. Maria broke up with Michael in this timeline.


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screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries

Originally posted by Brown Eyes:
Back with more questions. The Dupes. Do we know anything about them? Who was their guardian? Wasn't Nasado or Kal. They knew so much more about their home planet. Where did they get this information? Wonder how they were contacted by other aliens when it came time for that summit?

The Dupes never were properly explained; another symptom of BWS (Bad Writing Syndrome). As I understand the story, the memories of Antar were edited out of the NM4's "essences" before they were installed into their new bodies. Obviously, this wasn't done with the NY4, and so they retained their memories of Antar. As adults (by mental development, anyway), they would need much less guarding.

Who was their guardian? THere's the rub. Tic-tac seems to have been keeping an eye on the NM4, and Mr. Harding had Tess. Tess didn't see the NY4, nor vice versa, so it's doubtful that Mr. H was their guardian. Kal was in Hollywood, so he was otherwise occupied; but it's possible he could have taken some time to set up the NY4 and then more-or-less abandon them when they didn't need hm any more. (I could see them rebelling against him, chasing him away.) In Hollywood, one could disappear for a while and come back with no one noticing. In fact, some of his career could even have been spent in NYC without raising an eyebrow; it would improve his resume! Kal, being successful, would also have the resources to set up the Dupes in NY. I could believe him as their guardian, given their common cynicism and selfishness.

Originally posted by Algieba:
I think it's interesting that Madam Vivien's predictions ended up being so way off the mark. They have an epi in Season Two starting out with consulting a fortune teller who ends up being wrong on two of her three predictions.

I've got to agree with Citrus&Vine on this:
Michael and Maria might never have become intimate in the first timeline, since Michael wouldn't have made a candlelight dinner to tell Maria that he would be leaving Earth. Michael wouldn't have shown Maria his true feelings, since he wasn't leaving Earth. Michael and Maria wouldn't have become a couple, like they did in the current timeline.
Right on the money. Without FMax's intervention, L&M would have coupled up, and squeezed Tess out. Without Tess's involvement, there would have been no "Alex Files" nonsense leading to Michael's pre-Departure dedication to & seduction of Maria. The relationship was always unstable, it could easily not have come to fruition.

Citrus&Vine:
I think, based on the definition of carnal and based on Alex’s words, Madame Vivien’s prediction was that Alex and Isabel would be friends, and they would not have sex. The romantic kisses at the prom didn’t lead to sex. As Madame Vivien predicted, Alex and Isabel never had a carnal relationship in this timeline.
Right. Alex was too boyish for Isabel, first time around; and in the second, he was killed before anything could come of it.

xmag:
But still, i can't understand how FM could have an impact on Isabel, to make her change her mind about Alex. As you said, they kissed, and not a friendly kiss. They went to prom, and she was the one seeking him out.
Yes, but that was the altered Alex: he'd been messed with, officially by going to Sweden; but in reality by having his mind worked over by Nikolas (or Tess). This, BTW, is another reason why I think it was Nikolas: he added a touch of cool, of class, of himself which Isabel responded to. I doubt Tess could have so improved Alex.

Wait, I'm agreeing with C&V? :eek: :look:
Hmmm...

In the last 2 TV-tie-in Roswell books (by Andy Mangels), the Dupes' story line is resolved and Kal is their "protector." I emailed Mr. Mangels and asked if this plot was his own or a mandate from TPTB. He replied:

• "We never spoke with Jason Katims about the books at all, nor received any specific guidance about them. The plots were wholly and completely ours, as approved by Fox licensing (and Katims' office, I believe)."

It is so puzzling how both shapeshifters from Antar turned out to not have the royal four's best interests at heart. I wonder if they were part of the betrayal on Antar or if they just decided to switch sides after seeing what Earth was like. Nasedo wanted to get back to Antar and Kal wanted to stay.

Do you suppose Antar Mom made some bad decisions as to who to send with the royals? Are shapeshifters on Antar like Nasedo and Kal or like our own kind shapeshifter. And how nice of you to point out that distinction, Citrus.

Ah, I did not know that Andy Mangels chose his own plots. Even if it was with the appoval of Fox licensing, I thought they were under a tighter rein than that. That is good news though because I did not like all the twists and turns they came up with. That leaves more wiggle room for a movie. Thanks for that information, shapeshifter.

Hmmm. Michael and Maria became intimate because that's what they both wanted, not because he was leaving. It might have taken a lot longer without the pressure on Michael when he thought he was leaving. True, there wouldn't have been the candlelight dinner but I think it is reasonable to assume that Michael would have one day opened up to Maria and let her see him as he truly was. She is the one he went to in Independence Day, not Isabel or Max, his own species. He said in Graduation that he loved her from the moment he saw her and knew she was the one for him.

Michael continued to love Maria even after she dumped him and treated him like dirt. Maria needed to explore her options without the alien interference and I think she was right to do so but she was cruel to Michael. I'm glad she realized in the end that she wanted to be with him. So there, Madame Vivien.

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I love Michael and Maria as a couple. I love each of them individually and together. I agree with Algieba that Michael and Maria became intimate, because it’s what they both wanted. :)

I don’t know, though, if they would have become a couple in the previous timeline, if they hadn’t worked together to handle the Skins. Unless a couple has some goals in common, their relationship doesn’t work out very well. That happened to Maria, when she wanted to make music her priority and her relationship with Michael an occasional tryst. It wasn’t what Michael wanted. Likewise, making alien problems more important than her music didn’t work out very well for Maria.

If Maria and Michael could find goals in common in the future, their love for each other might become a deeper commitment of being a couple. Otherwise, their love for each other might work better as friendship, rather than romance. It wasn’t enough for Maria to be the one for Michael. Michael also must be the one for Maria, for the relationship to endure.

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I think Kal and Nasedo came to Earth around 1959 in the beautiful, fully functional spaceship that was hidden in the convenience store basement. I think they were both sent by Kivar to find the Royals. I don’t think they were sent by Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother.

Tess mistakenly thought that Nasedo was a “protector”, since he was there when she came out of her pod and he raised her.

Shapeshifters would be useful on Earth, as they could blend into the human population. So, maybe some shapeshifters were sent along with the pods. I don’t know if any survived the 1947 crash, however. The aliens that Hal saw in 1947 looked like aliens, not humans. The two aliens were fiercely protective of the pods. Neither of them seemed to be shapeshifters, as they looked like aliens.

I don’t think either Kal or Nasedo made the trip with the podsters in 1947. I think they both arrived later, around 1959, when Nasedo murdered Atherton, and Kal murdered the actress in Roswell.

Tess told Max that Nasedo made a deal 40 years ago. That would fit the approximate date of 1959, when the alien murders began. I think Nasedo began the silver handprint murders then, because he didn’t know where the Royals were. He didn’t know they were still in pods. Nasedo knew that the true ruler healed people near death, leaving behind a silver handprint. So, he deliberately left bodies with silver handprints on them, so he could generate interest in silver handprint incidents.

Nasedo found the podchamber and Tess. I think Nasedo told Tess what Kivar wanted, because he needed her help, since Kal was living a life of pleasure and wouldn’t help Nasedo. Nasedo, as a shapeshifter, had to stay away from Max as much as possible, so Max wouldn’t tell him what to do. Nasedo was hampered by the restriction. So he lied to Tess about being a “protector”, in order to get her to help him get the Royals captured and produce an heir for Kivar.

Tess fell in love with Max, though. Nasedo had to stop using Tess to help him in his plans. Nasedo didn’t tell Tess that he was going to pretend to be Max. Tess and Max nearly saw Nasedo taking Liz away in the convertible.





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screencap from Momo's Roswell

The script for White Room implies that the shapeshifters came in 1947:
Nasedo might have not made 'the deal' with Kvar until later.
The shapeshifters were genetically "programmed" (as Kal said) to serve, but their 'hearts and minds' seem to always seek for a way to break that bondage.

The problem with suggesting that Nasedo made the deal with Kivar on Earth after landing in the 1947 crash is figuring out how Kivar located Nasedo to make a deal with him. Or figuring out how Nasedo could contact Kivar from Earth (if Nasedo had been in the 1947 crash) to make a deal with Kivar. Another problem is figuring out why Nasedo wouldn't know where the pods were and didn't hand over the pods to Kivar, if Nasedo had been part of the 1947 crash. If Nasedo handed the pods over to Kivar, Kivar would then have control of the Royals.

I think the reason that Nasedo didn’t hand over the pods to Kivar was because he didn’t know where they were. I think that he didn’t know where they were, because he didn’t arrive on Earth until around 1959. I think Nasedo and Kal were sent by Kivar, after the 1947 crash and after the Skins failed to find the Royals.



In The White Room, Pierce was only guessing that the alien who had escaped was named "Nasedo", because he taped the conversation between Michael and Isabel in Michael's apartment in Sexual Healing, when Isabel said the name. Pierce didn't know the name of the alien who escaped.

• Episode The White Room
  
  PIERCE: You know, I might not have been around in 1947, but I know all about the crash. About the four aliens they captured: two dead, two alive. I’ve spent my entire career studying the documentation. Especially the three years of observation they made on the one held in captivity, right here in this room.
  MAX: I thought you said there were four.
  PIERCE: One of them escaped. Nasedo. Isn’t that what you call him?

Notice that Pierce doesn’t say anything about shapeshifters. Pierce only says aliens.

Pierce only knows the name “Nasedo”, because he recorded Isabel and Michael’s conversation in Michael’s apartment.

• Episode Max to the Max
  
  (At an undisclosed location. Someone is watching a video of Isabel and Michael in Michael’s apartment, taken with the hidden surveillance camera.)
  ISABEL: That would mean that each of us has this information in some part of us we’re just not conscious of.
  MICHAEL: Or Liz is getting the messages from somewhere or someone else.
  ISABEL: Nasedo?
  (Tape rewinds.)
  MICHAEL: …messages from somewhere or someone else.
  ISABEL: Nasedo?
  (Opening Credits.)

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_________screencap from Momo’s Roswell

…………………………………


Nasedo was a shapeshifter. But since Nasedo could look like any human, it seems unlikely that Nasedo or any shapeshifter was ever captured.

The aliens in the 1947 crash that Hal saw looked like aliens, not humans. Nasedo looked human, even in death. Only when Nasedo was brought back to life did he look like an alien briefly, before changing to human shape.


Kal looked like an alien, after Max instructed Kal to “shapeshift, fly the ship”. Upon leaving the ship, Kal immediately took human form.

I don’t think Kal or Nasedo were ever captured, since they were shapeshifters, who could look like humans. I think Kal and Nasedo arrived on Earth around 1959 on the beautiful, fully functional spaceship that was concealed in the basement of the phony convenience store in Utah.

Kal knew the spaceship could fly. Otherwise, if the spaceship couldn’t fly, Kal wouldn’t have risked blowing his cover, in order to keep Max from the spaceship. Kal wanted to stay on Earth.


Neither Kal nor Nasedo were “in bondage” to Max, the true ruler. Both of them, as long as they didn't interfere in Max's life by drawing attention to themselves, could do anything they wanted. Nasedo wanted to get Max and the other Royals captured to produce an heir for Kivar. Kal wanted Max to stay away from the spaceship, because he knew that the spaceship could fly and that Max could fly it.

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Dog gone the RBI needs a :bump:

:thumbs_up: C & V

It's entirely possible that the aliens in 1947 were shapeshifters, who had not yet learned how to mimic humans well enough to pass. As for the "beautiful, fully functional" spaceship, that could just as easily be the Skins' transportation. They got here somehow, and the time frame would be about right; close to 50 years before the present. Their absence when the pods, etc. were started explains why they didn't do anything aout it, and their arrival shortly afterwards explains why the podsters weren't hatched earlier.

This also helps with the character of the shapeshifters; they can both be "good" guys to start. I'm no sure what was going on in the "White Room" story arc, but I see no profit for anyone (except the Skins) to get Max killed or imprisoned. Can Skins kill, and leave silver handprints? We know they do have some similar Powers, and Max can leave a silver handprint.

:wave: Reggie, Brown Eyes, and everyone!

Aliens had evidently been on Earth, prior to the 1947 crash, since the podsters looked human, and since Michael looked like Grandpa Dupree looked in 1935.

• 

If shapeshifters had been sent along on the 1947 mission, it seems likely that they would already know how to look like humans, before they landed on Earth, since humans had already been studied, and since the podsters were created to look like humans.

Maybe the two aliens Hal saw were shapeshifters who became unconscious in alien form in the crash, then regained consciousness inside the room and killed the humans examining the pods. So, maybe the two aliens hadn’t taken time to shapeshift to human form, because they were busy defending the pods.

Pierce said that there had been four aliens from the 1947 crash. Two were dead, one died in captivity, and the other escaped.

Someone took the pods from the room where Hal saw the two aliens and the two sets of pods. Someone took one set of pods to the rock formation, and the other set of pods to New York. If each of the aliens that Hal saw took one set of pods out of the building, then neither alien was held in the white room.

It seems likely that the two aliens took away the two sets of pods from the base immediately after Hal pulled the fire alarm. The two sets of pods arrived safely at their separate destinations.

In any case, some alien or aliens took the pods away from the military base. If it was the escaped alien who took both sets of pods away, then Nasedo couldn’t have been the alien who was held three years and died in captivity. That means that Nasedo wasn’t held in the white room of Eagle Rock Military Hospital.


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In 1947, Privates Fifer and McCarthy were found dead with silver handprints left on their bodies, after the crash.


The aliens, who killed the medical team examining the pods in 1947, left silver handprints on the bodies, before Hal interrupted them.


Nasedo also left silver handprints on bodies of people he killed. Nasedo wasn’t in danger, when he killed Atherton or Sheila Hubble or the agent in downtown Roswell. Nasedo didn’t have to leave silver handprints on bodies.

Kal didn’t put silver handprints on the bodies of people he killed. Nasedo could have hidden the bodies or destroyed the bodies, so no one would know anything about aliens. Nasedo, though, wanted people to know about silver handprints murders. Beginning in 1959, Nasedo began conspicuously leaving bodies with silver handprints on them. Nasedo was looking for Max, the true ruler, who healed people near death, leaving a silver handprint.


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The episode The White Room might be confusing to viewers who didn’t understand that Nasedo wanted Max held in the white room, and that Nasedo planned for Michael to be captured next.

For viewers who thought Nasedo was trying to “rescue” Max, questions arise about Nasedo’s intentions, since Nasedo knew that Michael wasn’t a Special Unit agent. Questions also arise about why Nasedo refused to leave with Michael and Max. And more questions arise, because Nasedo didn’t kill Pierce, even though he stood right next to Pierce, waiting for the mindwarp to end. Instead, Nasedo began chatting with Pierce.

A year later, in The Departure, the reason why Nasedo wanted Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess captured and imprisoned is explained, when it’s revealed that Kivar wants a Royal heir. It’s also revealed that Kivar wants Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess as well.

In season three, more clues are revealed that explain why Nasedo didn’t simply go up to Max and lie to him. Nasedo, because he had the constraint of having to obey Max, had to stay away from Max as much as possible, so he could carry out his plans.

Nasedo wanted to capture the Royal Four to produce a Royal, lineal heir with Antarian blood. Nasedo selected the old military hospital. With all four Royal hybrids captured and held there, Nasedo could use them to produce babies, until a Royal, lineal child with Antarian blood was produced. Once such a child was born, Max would be killed and the Seal would pass on to the heir, who would then be the true ruler, with the power to heal people near death.


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The Skins came to Earth in 1950. When Courtney destroyed the husks, the Skins said that they were all as good as dead. That implies that the Skins couldn’t return to their home planet, where the atmosphere would be safe for them. If the Skins had access to a spaceship, they could leave Earth and not die. So I don’t think the Skins knew anything about the spaceship hidden in the underground government storage facility beneath the phony convenience store in Utah.

Someone brought the Skins to Earth. The Skins had to stay on Earth, because they didn’t have access to a ship to take them away from Earth. Whitaker, a Skin, couldn’t leave Earth, unless she got the Granilth.

If Kal, Nasedo, and the Skins had all come to Earth together, then they likely would have coordinated efforts to find the Royals. Instead, Nasedo didn’t know that Whitaker was a Skin, until too late. Whitaker killed Nasedo.

Kal and Nasedo knew all about the spaceship. Kal knew the spaceship was in the underground government storage facility beneath the phony convenience store in Utah. Nasedo knew the spaceship was in a government storage facility and that a diamond key operated the ship. The Skins, who lived in Copper Summit, Arizona, didn’t know that there was a spaceship in Utah. The Skins thought they were all as good as dead. They went after Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess to get the Granilith, so they could leave Earth.

Kal and Nasedo were first heard about in 1959, when Nasedo killed Atherton, and Kal killed the actress in Roswell. So, I think that 9 years after the Skins came to Earth, Kal and Nasedo arrived on Earth to find the Royals, since the Skins had failed to find the Royals.

We only know about two shapeshifters, Kal and Nasedo. Both of them stayed away from Max as much as possible, because they had to do what Max, the true ruler, told them to do.

Other shapeshifters might not have had the constraint of obeying Max. Other shapeshifters might be good, kind, helpful beings, unlike Kal or Nasedo.

Kal told Max, “Being your protector might be encoded in my genes…” Kal used the word “might”. Kal didn’t protect Max. Kal got Max arrested. Kal tried to kill Max many times. So it’s also possible that Kal lied that his genes “might be encoded”. Kal and Nasedo might have been required to obey the true ruler, because of their past misdeeds towards the ruler. Maybe their genes weren't altered. Maybe Kal and Nasedo were constrained by some other means to obey the true ruler. Maybe only bad shapeshifters, who had overtly tried to harm the true ruler, were constrained to obey the true ruler, if they got near the true ruler. :)


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screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries and Momo’s Roswell

I'm having computer problems, so I can't reply to everything just now, as I wish I could. But one quick point: Pierce said there were four aliens: two dead, and two captured. Of the captured, one died in captivity and the other escaped. So, according to Pierce, there should be only one alien running around loose! My point is that the Army only found four aliens. A busload of them could have gone over the hill before they got there; two (or more) could have come back to rescue the pods, and squads of them could have take them to NY and NM.

We don't know, for sure, how many aliens there were, or are. We do know that the Skins got here a little less than 50 years ago, because their husks are starting to go bad. We do not know that the Skins have no way to get home. It's entirely possible they do, but that K' var told them not to come back without results; if they do, they'll be killed. In fact, that's the logical situation. The Skins could undoubtedly get their flying saucer back from the convenience store any time they wanted; meanwhile, they have a parking place! :)

Courtney said the Skins came to Earth in 1950.

• Episode Harvest
  
  COURTNEY: Yeah, we came here in 1950.
  

I think we know that the Skins had no way home, since they went after Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess to get the Granilith. The Skins were on Earth to stay, even if they found the Royal Four and the Granilith. The Skins were on Earth, because that’s where Kivar wanted them to be.

If the Skins had known about the beautiful, fully functional spaceship in the underground government storage in Utah, they would have used it to leave Earth. With a spaceship, the Skins could go where they wanted to go, regardless of what Kivar wanted.

Whitaker was tired of living in a husk. She went after the Granilith, not the spaceship. Evidently, Whitaker didn’t know anything about the spaceship in the underground government storage facility, even though she was a Congresswoman. With a spaceship, Whitaker could go where she wanted to go, regardless of what Kivar wanted.

Whitaker wanted to leave Earth, even before the husks were destroyed. She didn’t tell the other Skins that she had found the Royals. Whitaker wanted the Granilith for herself, so she could leave Earth without the other Skins.

Later, Courtney destroyed the new husks.

GREER: Well, that's the end of it, then. We're all as good as dead.
NICHOLAS: We may be as good as dead, but this is not the end.

Greer and Nicholas wouldn’t have thought that they were all as good as dead, when their husks were destroyed, if they could leave Earth by spaceship. They knew that Kivar wouldn’t let them leave Earth with the Royals and the Granilith, even if they handed over the Royals and the Granilith. Otherwise, the Skins would have quickly pursued Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess, so they could leave Earth.

Greer wouldn’t have said, “We’re all as good as dead,” if handing over the Royals and the Granilith would get them off Earth.

Nicholas knew that finding the Royals wouldn’t get them home, unless they could use the Granilith themselves to leave Earth.

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screencap from Momo's Roswell

Evidently, Nasedo didn’t know where Max, Michael, and Isabel were, until after Max healed Liz, leaving a silver handprint. Until then Nasedo couldn’t find them.

If Nasedo had been with the pods just before Max, Michael, and Isabel left the podchamber, Nasedo should have been able to find them in less than 10 years time. But Nasedo didn’t find them, until after Max healed Liz.

Nasedo didn’t know what Max, Michael, and Isabel looked like, or he would have found them sooner, since they were still in New Mexico. Nasedo didn’t know when Max, Michael, and Isabel left the podchamber, or he would have found them, since the story of the children found in the desert was well known.

It didn’t occur to Nasedo after he found Tess that Max, Michael, and Isabel had left the podchamber by themselves as children and had been raised by humans. Otherwise, Nasedo would have checked for reports of children who were found in the desert or who were adopted or who were in foster care.

Nasedo had no idea what Max, Michael, and Isabel looked like or when they left the podchamber, so he couldn’t find them in the ten years after they left the pods, until Max healed Liz.

Evidently, Nasedo wasn’t part of the 1947 mission, or he would have known that the pods were in the rock formation. He would have known what Max, Michael, and Isabel looked like. He would have known when the three of them left the podchamber.

Nasedo wasn’t ever captured in the 1947 crash, because he wasn’t part of the mission. He didn’t know where the pods were, because he didn’t come to Earth, until around 1959, when he conspicuously began the silver handprint murders, in order to find the true ruler (Max), who healed people, leaving behind a silver handprint.

If Nasedo had known the pods were in the rock formation, he could have handed the pods and the Granilith over to Kivar.

Having Nasedo arrive in 1950 would clear up his remark to Michael in White Room

• MICHAEL: I’ve been looking for you for a long time.
  
  NASEDO: Not as long as I’ve been looking for you.

But an alternate interpretation (there's nearly always an alternate) would be that the mecurial Nasedo was "playing both ends against the middle." That is, like a double agent, he pretended to be looking for them, but in reality, knew where they were. Nasedo knew where the Granolith was, so he could have pretended ignorance of it's location (and the pods) just as a poker player would not reveal his winning ace until he was sure it would benefit himself and that to keep it hidden it would no longer be to his own advantage.

**************

I had another idea for a Roswell: The Next Generation .
It would be a prequel ("The First Generation," maybe?) with pre-teen or younger actors playing the young podsters.
There would be 'flash forwards' from Roswell (and maybe even from a future Roswell), with voice overs similar to on Jack & Bobby.
The original actors could make guest appearances for some of the flash forwards, or even flash backs as their pre-cloned selves.

Glad you’re plotting new storylines, shapeshifter! :) I would love more Roswell, too!

Like you, I think it’s a good idea to examine whether or not Nasedo was “playing both ends against the middle”. :)

If Nasedo was pretending to look for Max, Michael, and Isabel, but actually knew where they were all along, then what would be the reason for him to do that?

If Nasedo wanted to use the Royals for his own purpose, it seems to me that he would have an advantage over them, if he began indoctrinating them with his ideas, when they were very young children. For example, he could tell them never to tell him what to do, because they could endanger their own lives, if he did exactly as they told him to do.

Nasedo could still pretend to Kivar (or someone else) that he was looking for Max, Michael, and Isabel, while still having them under his control. But Nasedo only raised Tess. He didn’t raise Max, Michael, or Isabel. He didn’t seem to know where the three were, until after Max healed Liz, leaving a reported silver handprint.

I think Nasedo sent the alien light and left the alien symbol in Frazier Woods that was reported to the Sheriff and the media.

• 

I think Nasedo did that to find out if Max really was an alien. If Nasedo had known where Max, Michael, and Isabel were all along, then he wouldn’t have needed to send a signal and leave a symbol in Frazier Woods.

The alternative explanation would be that the light and symbol in the woods was a random act, unconnected to Max, Michael, and Isabel. But the symbol looked like the symbol on the pendant found in the hidden room at Atherton’s. It was the same symbol in the photograph of the sand sculpture Isabel and Max made as children.

________________

I think that the symbol in Frazier Woods was left by Nasedo to test whether or not Max was an alien.


After Max, Michael, and Isabel responded to the symbol by using their powers to illuminate the symbol and then erase the symbol, Nasedo knew that he had found the missing Royals. :)

• 

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screencap from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries and Momo’s Roswell

Nasedo knew where the podchamber was. Tess remembered that Nasedo was there, when she came out of her pod. Also, Nasedo was shown in the podchamber talking with Tess, after Max, Michael, and Isabel left.

I don’t know whether or not Nasedo knew the Granilith was hidden behind the pods. Isabel didn’t find the Granilith, until after Nasedo was dead. Maybe Nasedo never looked behind the pods.

Tess gave Michael a book with drawings of Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess as children. The book was crudely constructed. The pages were thick, unlike the piece of metal from the 1947 crash that Hal gave Michael. The symbols in the book were large. There were few pages in the book. The symbols repeated. Earlier, Mrs. Evans showed Tess photographs of Isabel and Max as children. So, Tess could have made the book with the symbols and the drawings that Tess handed Michael.




The translation that Alex did in Las Cruces filled many pages, with single spaced sentences.





I think that the book Tess and Alex translated was a different book from the book that Tess handed Michael. I think that Tess made the book she handed Michael.

The book that Alex translated explained how to operate the Granilith. I think that if Nasedo had known about such a book, or if Nasedo had found the crystal needed to operate the Granilith, he would have kept the book and the crystal away from Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess, so they couldn’t return to Antar on their own.

It’s possible that Tess found the book Alex translated and the crystal needed to operate the Granilith in Nasedo’s things, after he died. However, I don’t think Nasedo knew anything about the book that Alex would translate or the crystal needed to operate the Granilith or where the Granilith was.

If Nasedo had known where the Granilith was, I think he would have bargained with Whitaker to spare his life, in return for the Granilith location.

Nasedo knew that he couldn’t kill Whitaker, since Max had ordered Nasedo to stop killing people. I think Nasedo would have told Whitaker where the Granilith was, if he knew where it was, especially since only Max could operate the Granilith.

Instead, Whitaker killed Nasedo. She didn’t know where the Granilith was.

Whitaker could have killed Nasedo for a reason other than Nasedo not knowing or telling Whitaker where the Granilith was. However, I think that if Nasedo had known where the Granilith was, he would have told Whitaker, in order to save his life.

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screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries and Momo’s Roswell

I think Nasedo did indoctrinate (and even manipulate) Tess. But in the Dupes, we saw that Ava was the most vulnerable emotionally of the podsters.
Speaking as a parent of 3 children, I can imagine Nasedo wanting to keep at arm's length (or, in the case of Kal, several states distant) strong-willed children whom he had been programmed to obey. The teen years would be a much better time to suddenly 'find' them--when they are trying to find themselves. At an age when it feels right to begin to separate from parents, young adults also like to bond with parent figures, like Valenti and Nasedo.
Ah, well. I guess in a future, canonized Roswell episode, book, or movie, Nasedo could go either way, and could be revealed to be friend or foe (or both).

And C&V, About the granolith. I think now you are right about Nasedo not knowing where it was (or, at least, I believe he could have known about it as much as not).
I was mistaken. I was thinking the Nasedo letter in Season 3's opener had a picture of the granilith. But it was actually a picture of the diamond/space ship key, whose shape was a perfect minature of the granilith.


*********************

Okay, just one more observation: I watched most of Interruptus when it was on SciFi recently, and realized that Isabel is only 19 when she is married, and yet is drinking alcohol in California, where the drinking age is 21. Well, she didn't actually drink it, but she did seem at least somewhat familiar with "those, um... Fruity, pineappley umbrella drinks."

i think her fruity pinapply umbrella drink was virgin...probably a mixture of juices. i have a question though.....this might be a silly one, but here goes....when alex thought he was in sweden, was he there in his mind the whole time he was cracking the code at the university? or did she control his mind and then mind warp him after? also, did she mind warp the girl "leanna"? or did she just set her up? if so, why did she run form liz and maria? this is all just a little confusing to me. if you guys could help that would be great. :)

:wave: Hi doubledown119! Welcome to the thread! :)



Tess could mindwarp, but she couldn’t make people do things. I think that Alex agreed to help Tess translate the book, because he wanted to get back with Isabel, who was interested in Grant. Tess wanted to be with Max. I think that Tess and Alex didn’t tell anyone what they were doing, because they didn’t know if they would succeed.

I don’t think Alex thought he was in Sweden while he was in Las Cruces. I think Alex got the information and pictures about Sweden over the internet, as a cover story for his parents and teachers. I think Alex made the photograph of himself with “Leanna” (Jennifer Coleman), since he knew computers. Or, Tess could have used her powers to make the picture.

Subconsciously, Alex knew that “Leanna” wasn’t Leanna. I think he knew that, because he knew who she really was, but couldn’t tell anyone, after Tess mindwarp-suppressed his memory.

Jennifer Coleman (“Leanna”) was involved with Alex and Tess to the extent that a huge text file was sent to the email address jcoleman @ ulascruces.edu, and to the extent that the translation about operating the Granilith reached the deserted building, whose rental was billed to Jennifer Coleman’s campus mailing address.

I don’t think that Jennifer Coleman ran from Liz and Maria. I don’t think she knew Maria or Liz. I think Jennifer left, because it was time for her to go.



Jennifer was listening to the outdoor concert, when Liz noticed her. Jennifer glanced towards Liz and Maria, as Maria checked the picture of Leanna and compared it to Jennifer. (People sometimes notice other people looking at them. :)) Then Jennifer went back to listening to the concert, her head and body rocking to the music, as before. Next, Jennifer turned and left. Jennifer walked normally for a while, then hurriedly crossed the street. The bus stopped. I think Jennifer hurried across the street, so she wouldn’t miss the bus. Evidently she boarded the bus (or went elsewhere), while Liz and Maria were blocked by traffic across the street. By the time Liz and Maria crossed the street, Jennifer was gone.


Jennifer may have known Alex and Tess. Alex knew that Leanna was not Leanna. Tess had been in Las Cruces, when the group went to age Pierce's bones. Maybe Tess met Jennifer then. Or maybe Jennifer didn’t know either Alex or Tess. We only know that Alex had her picture in a photo, and that an email address in the name of jcoleman was used, and that Jennifer Coleman received a bill for the rent of the deserted building outside Las Cruces. :)

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screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries
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:) shapeshifter, I think Max was the only person Nasedo and Kal had to obey, since only Max had the Seal.

Nasedo didn’t obey Michael. In the white room, Michael insisted that Nasedo leave. He told Nasedo “Come on” and “You are not leaving me again. Let’s go!” In spite of Michael’s orders, Nasedo stayed behind. He didn’t obey Michael.

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All good points C&V! And the most plausible explanation of the whole Leanna thing I've read.
It there's ever a Roswell remake that endeavors to carry on with 'our' Roswell's plot lines, I hope they hire you as 'fact' checker. :)

The matter of Isabel suddenly becoming several years older (old enough to graduate, drink, and marry an older guy) is just another CHAD: Couldn't Happen As Described. This is what drove us mad while the show was on; mad both as angry and as crazy.

As for Alex, I've always maintained that the logical one to have controlled him at ULC was Nikolas. It makes sense for him to have MWed Tess to appearantly become pregnant, to get Max and the others to come with her to Antar. (Tess would otherwise be voluntarily placing her life in the hands of someone who had killed her once, and continued to try to do so. Not a rational plan, I'd say!)

While Alex was translating, his affection for Isabel would have been corroding the MW that controlled him. Nikolas diverted Alex by substituting not-Leanna, thus preserving his control over Alex. Not-Leanna also provided a convenient cat's-paw for obtaining the warehouse space, where Nikolas and any remaining Skins could have stayed. Being close to Alex let Nikolas keep the MW going better than Tess could have, from three hours away. Nikolas could also have provided the supporting photos and nic-nacks that Alex brought home. And Nikolas would not have cared about destroying a human, while you'd expect Tess would care about someone she was friends with. In fact, at the end it seemed to me that she was trying to fix the damage done to Alex. If she could "bandage" it together, maybe it would heal.

I have a couple of fanfics which show how this could have worked out. "No aliens were harmed in the writing of these fanfics." I'll post links if you want.

Reggie, I’m sorry that you were driven mad, as in crazy and angry, by Roswell. Who decided to name chad as “couldn’t happen as described”?

I’m glad that you are enjoying writing Roswell fan fiction! :)



I love Roswell! :love: I think it’s a brilliant story. Roswell makes sense to me, and I enjoy it very much! :) :) :)


Max and Isabel were given separate birthdays, which meant that they each had a special day for celebration.

Isabel turned 18 in the second season of Roswell. People 18 and older in the US are adults and can marry.

Isabel didn’t drink alcohol. At her wedding, she and the other wedding guests who were under the age of 21 were served non-alcoholic beverages, in accordance with US law.

Isabel didn’t drink the beverage she asked Jesse to order for her in their room on their honeymoon. Jesse drank it, after Isabel said she felt ill. Isabel only asked Jesse to order the drink as a distraction.

Isabel was an alien, who had lived before. She was intelligent and worked hard, so she was able to earn sufficient credits to graduate a year early. Students who earn sufficient credits are able to graduate early. :)

Isabel was interested in older guys. She became interested in Grant, who was older than she was, after her romance with Alex ended. Isabel later married Jesse, who was also an older man, because Jesse was an intelligent person who loved her and whom she loved. It’s legal in the US for people to marry someone older. Many people marry people older than themselves. :)

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The baby was real, not a mindwarp. Max kissed Liz, while Tess was pregnant with Max’s child. Max didn’t stand by Tess, when he learned that Tess had caused Alex’s death. Max started to kill Tess. Consequently, Tess believed that Nasedo had been telling her the truth that Kivar was her ally and that Max, Michael, and Isabel were her enemies.

When Tess arrived on Antar, she checked to see if Kivar was her ally. When Kivar proved not to be her ally, by wanting to kill baby Zan, Tess fled to Earth.

The message from Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother didn’t say who killed them. So Tess could have reasonably believed that someone other than Kivar had killed her.

Tess hadn’t meant to cause Alex’s death. She didn’t know that he could die from her mindwarp-suppressions. Tess was sad that Alex died. She sent flowers to Alex’s parents in the name of the Olsons, because Tess cared about Alex and his parents.

Season One, lab scene where Max is kissing Tess. How come no one was alarmed that Max's shirt sleeve was burning? Flames that high should have caused a bad burn on his arm yet the teacher just ignored it. I don't need to practice setting my sleeve on fire to know that I would get severe burns from it. I know Max, being an alien, was not hurt but that is no explanation for the humans who witnessed it.

Hi Algieba! Max’s sleeve hadn’t been destroyed by flames. He hadn’t cried out or reacted in pain. So, to me, the class and teacher thought Max was unharmed.

Different people have various opinions about scenes in the episode Tess, Lies, and Videotape. I think that Max would have felt pain in the flame scene, if he had been burned. To me, Max hadn’t been burned. Max later reacted to pain in the white room.

Actually, it's possible to have your sleeve catch fire (a little) and not notice it. I did that myself once. No harm done, just scared a few people who saw it. :D

That's true. I'm glad you were okay! :)

I also know from personal experience that a person can receive a bad burn beneath fabric that is undamaged. Sometimes, heat from a hot object penetrates fabric, without damaging the fabric.

Hi, everybody, and happy new year.

I have a question for you : i was reading a fic, and there was that intriguing idea that i never thought about. Do you think the aliens have some kind of powers which allow them to see the deads ? i mean, Grandma Claudia was close to death and thanks to Max, Liz was able to see her one last time.

Isabel used to see Alex a lot, after his death. And Max saw the ghost of the guy he didn't save, during Christmas. So, love, guiltiness, could help them see dead people.

xmag, very intriguing question. I suspect if the series ever resumes, it would be addressed.

Citruse & Vine, you always amaze me with your calm, logical explantions for things in Roswell which seem to be inconsistent.

xmag, the way I understood Max's role between Liz and her Grandmother, it's that he used the alien ability of mind-connection to connect Grandma Claudia and Liz's minds and give them the chance to "speak" one last time.

Isabel daydreamed Alex because she missed him so much... I guess there's nothing more human than that.

In Max's case... he was drowning in guilt for the man he didn't save. I always attributed that vision to his psichologic state. That and those darn tv X-mas specials cliches ;)

BTW: HAPPY NEW YEAR everybody :wave:

:wave: shapeshifter, hi! Thanks! :)

:wave: xmag, I don’t know that it would be an alien power versus a human power to see the dead. Humans have reported seeing the dead.

People who don’t believe that people have spirits or exist beyond death generally attribute reports of spirits as being the product of people’s imagination.

In the story of Roswell, I think the storytellers were saying that people exist separately from their bodies and that people’s spirits survive death.

When Max died healing Clayton, his spirit entered Clayton’s body. When the Clayton body died from the fall from the window, Clayton’s spirit was seen leaving the body.

Each person can interpret Roswell in accordance with personal beliefs and convictions.

I think Isabel really believed that she saw Alex’s spirit, that he comforted her and gave her good advice.

I think Liz and Max really saw Grandma’s Claudia’s spirit standing outside her dying body.

I think that the Skins really believed that the Royal Four had lived before on another planet. I think that Larek really believed that Max had been his friend Zan in another life. I think Michael really believed that Isabel as Vilandra had trusted Kivar and that Kivar had betrayed her love and trust.

Again, I think that whatever one believes about life, death, or spirits is the viewer’s choice. :)

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Great Q's & A's, everyone. I like C&V's take on the life-after-death issue.
But I also like greenglow's interpretation of the Grandma Claudia scene:That introduces all sorts of possibilities.
For example, perhaps the Momogram was visible because the aliens' mind-connection abilities had been somehow harnessed in the orbs.
And maybe that's why Isabel's post-mortem Alex was so three-dimensional.

Well, now wait. Grandma Claudia was still alive when Max contacted her; and Alex was dead. I'd say that Liz's vision of GC was an extension of her being able to "see through his eyes". In effect, Max contacted GC, and Liz had a long "flash" of talking to her. Sure, it usually happens when they are kissing; but I think that the effect is one rooted in mental intimacy. Surely Max, concentrating on Liz's grandmother, would be feeling close to Liz as well as the grandmother. (Did he even know GC?)

As for Alex, I think his "ghost" was just a figment of Isabel's imagination. She was just imagining what he'd say. Remember, no one heard her talking to him; it was all imaginary. Of course, that's supposing that there really was a third season of Roswell, which there really wasn't. That was also just imaginary; and a sick, perverted imagination at that. IMHO. :rolleyes:

I think the writers portrayed Alex as real to Isabel, and not as a figment of her imagination.

Isabel spoke to Alex as really being there. She spoke aloud. She greeted him and welcomed seeing him again. She also considered that he was part of her imagination. Ultimately, though, Isabel seemed to believe Alex was really with her. In gratitude to him for his advice to her, she told Alex that if she had a son, she would name him Alex. Isabel believed that Alex was there advising her. Isabel then ran to Jesse, accepted his proposal, and hugged Jesse. She looked back at Alex and saw Alex smile happily and fade away.


In Season One, Max wanted to help Liz say goodbye to her grandmother, but he failed. Max apologized for failing. Liz thanked him.

Grandma Claudia called out to Liz, saying “Honey Bear”. She looked real. She stood away from her body. Both Max and Liz heard Claudia speak. Liz checked the bed to see her grandmother’s body still lying there. Liz spoke to her grandmother. Grandma Claudia wanted Liz to promise her to follow her heart wherever it would take her, to trust it. Liz promised.





At the hospital, both Liz and Max believed that they had both seen Grandma Claudia speak to them, outside her body, while she was unconscious.


In Season Two, Max believed he was being haunted by the spirit of the man who died saving his daughter’s life. He saw the man when he was with Liz. Liz didn’t see the man. Max saw the man fall backward off the roof’s edge. Max reacted to save the man. Max really saw the man.

MAX: He's haunting me, Liz.
LIZ: What do you mean?
MAX: He comes to me. I see him.
LIZ: You mean you literally see him.



Later, Max went to help Sydney. The man was in Sydney’s home. He told Max that Max was too late—that she had been rushed to the hospital.


If the man had only been part of Max’s imagination, Max wouldn’t have known upon entering Sydney’s home that she wasn’t there. He wouldn’t have known that Sydney had been taken to the hospital in Phoenix. The man was real to Max, and the man gave Max accurate information that Max didn’t have on his own. The man’s spirit was portrayed as being real.


________________________________________________
screencaps from Momo’s Roswell

I think both Reggie and CV have valid interpretations (but Reggie, maybe you want to lighten up a little. :sun: Or not. Fan disatisfaction is a very interesting phenomenom among devoted Roswellians. ;) ).

As for Ghost Alex, there is no definitive canon. And no doubt that was on purpose. But again thinking of greenglow's idea about using the alien mind connection in different ways, and also thinking about the momogram, and throwing in Nasedo's information about there ability to scan things into their brains, it seems Isabel probably had the equivalent of a video archive of Alex to work with, and perhaps when she pieced it together, it formed an actual hologram, and with a fancy algorythm, could actually have a few ideas of its own, though probably most would come from Isabel.

[I]Hi, everyone! Hope you all had wonderful holidays. Sorry, I've been away so long. I have a lot of catching up to do, but I wanted to make a quick point about Clayton. I think this was originally from CV. Please correct me if I'm wrong.



Clayton's body was not "fully human" when Max attached "his essense" to Clayton. Clayton's body had been injected with blood extract from Michael Guerin. This is probably what enabled Max to attach his essense and allow Max to take over and reshape Clayton's body in his own image. Michael's blood contained the gandarium that allowed Max to bridge the problem of combining human and alien DNA. I don't think being "fully human" had anything to do with the transition of power through the Royal Seal, especially since Clayton had Michael's DNA and therefore, Antarian blood in his veins.

I believe the seal passed to Michael because Max had physicially died and was not entirely in control of Clayton's body when Max's body turned to dust. So the moment Max died, it tripped the switch. Once the switch was flipped, that's it, there's no going back. No one anticipated that Max could come back from the dead so when Max finally gained control of Clayton's physicial body, it was not programmed to go back to Max. Max had to reclaim the Seal.

However, there is the continual problem of why Michael received the seal. Isabel is a lineal successor; Zan is a lineal successor but each of them was passed over in favor of Michael. While it is possible that Zan was passed over because he was human, he may also have been passed over because he was not of "legal age". Zan, as an infant, was not capable of ruling. Zan may have been passed over because of his age. Isabel was likely passed over because she was the "female" line and if the crown passed through male descent, then the thrown would have passed to Michael "as regent" to Max's legitimate heir, Zan, until Zan reached maturity. Michael, as Isabel's fiance, would have probably been appointed regent as the baby Zan's uncle (a common practise in English monarchy) and would have ruled until baby Zan was old enough to be crowned king. This might explain why the seal passed to Michael's chest rather than his brain.

Tess was not blood royal although she was mother to the heir, and being female, also excluded Tess from receiving the seal. My feeling is that Zan was rejected by Kivar not so much for "being human" but as a "failed attempt" to bring Max to Antar. "Being human" was a plausible excuse for Kivar to dismiss Zan. In any case, I don't think Kivar intended Zan to live in the long term although baby Zan might have been useful in the short term.

CV and greenglow: About ghostly visions ... always good answers! Love them both.

Just to add fuel for the fire for the sake of discussion, here's another idea to chew on. The mind-matter connection is important. Whether this falls under vibratory or microwave theories, you can pick your choice or just throw it aside as junk science. However, one theory is that the brain operates at certain frequencies and that psychics operate at a higher frequency that the normal brain. This, in turn, allows them to perform what is generally perceived as the "paranormal". Some people who perform mind control experiments catagorize it as electro-magnetic phenomena. Which is interesting because ghost hunters pinpoint ghostly phenomena by disturbances in normal electro-magnetic fields using meters to record the measurements. So what we are seeing in Max, Isabel, and Liz is perhaps the ability to raise their brain frequencies to communicate "Alex, Grandma Claudia, the girl's father ... and even the Momogram."

The other possibility is that they can now manipulate time subsets and cue up to parallel worlds by using some form of string theory through vibratory frequencies. I think this is the more far-fetched of the two, but who knows. I always keep an open mind. :rolleyes:

Hi Momo! Hope your holidays were wonderful, too!!! Thanks for your conversations! :) Thank you, too, for all your beautiful screencaps at Momo’s Roswell!



If Michael received the Seal to act as regent for baby Zan, until the child became of age to receive the Seal, then Kivar would have wanted to keep baby Zan, not kill him.

Kivar wanted to kill baby Zan. Tess fled the planet with baby Zan to save his life. That meant that baby Zan couldn’t receive the Seal, even if receiving the Seal were age-dependent.

Tess was one of the Royal Four. Kivar didn’t try to mate with her or have some other Antarian mate with her. So, evidently children from Tess, who weren’t Max’s children with Antarian blood, couldn’t inherit the Seal.

Michael didn’t have the Seal “stenciled to his brain”. Michael wore the Seal on his chest. People could readily see that he was an interim ruler, but not a lineal king. Max, as the true lineal king, was able to take the Seal from Michael.

Clayton received an extract, presumably created from Michael’s dried blood left on a band-aid in the trash. Michael’s blood wouldn’t have had Gandarium cells in it. Gandarium was used to facilitate combining human DNA with alien DNA, because normally the two didn’t mix. Gandarium wasn’t in the cells of the podsters.

• LAREK: The Gandarium are a genetically engineered life form, designed to bridge the DNA and RNA sequencing during third-stage amino synthesis.
  
  LAREK: Alright. Uh, let’s say you want to create an alien-human hybrid. First, you get some alien cells, then you get some human cells. Normally they don’t mix very well. You need something to help bridge the differences. That’s where the Gandarium come in. In a controlled environment like on your ship, they’re harmless, but released into an eco-system, the Gandarium will perform the only role they know: infect human cells.

The Gandarium weren’t in the podsters blood or other cells. The Gandarium had only been used to help bridge the differences between human cells and alien cells. The Gandarium acted as a catalyst in the combining of cells. The Gandarium wasn’t integrated into the podsters’ cells.

Clayton’s blood wasn’t replaced by Michael’s blood. Clayton received a dead extract of something made from Michael’s dead, dried blood. Clayton’s blood wasn’t changed by the extract made from Michael’s dried, dead blood left on the band-aid.







Max died healing Clayton. Max lost the Seal. Clayton’s body didn’t immediately change to look like Max. Clayton’s body looked like his own body, after Max healed him. Clayton yanked off the oxygen mask, stood up, and ran out, looking like himself. Clayton didn’t change to look like Max or to produce Antarian cells until later, after Max transferred into Clayton’s fully human body, leaving behind his own body, which died. Clayton hadn’t looked like Max when he went to bed. The next day, Meris was surprised to see the change in Clayton's body. Clayton’s body grew to look like Max's body. Later, after Clayton's body grew Antarian cells, Max was able to take back the Seal from Michael.





Thanks again, Momo! :)

Why on Earth would Khivar want Max's heir ? he would be a rival to him :eek: ! In my opinion, Tess was screwed up by Nacedo, the baby was a plot to bring Max and the others to Antar. So they could get killed. If Tess had succeeded in bringing them back, Max, Isabel and Michael would have been executed. And Khivar would have kept the baby ?

Certainly, he would have prefered to have his own heir. It's more logical that he would prefer to create his own lineage, so that his family reigns over Antar for the next centuries. If we study History, Napoleon married an austrian Grand Duchess, who was, i think, a niece of Marie-Antoinette (therefore ancient and royal blood) and he had his heir with her. He certainly didn't want the son of Marie-Antoinette and Louis XVI ! the poor kid died in a jail like a peasant :eek: .

Khivar's choice probably was Isabel (kind of like Napoleon and Marie-Antoinette's niece), but we all know how it ended.

:) Hi xmag! Kivar wanted an heir from Max or Isabel, because only a lineal heir could be the true ruler and have the Seal stenciled to the brain, which conferred great healing power and the ability to restore people to life. :)

At first, Kivar didn’t care about an heir. He murdered the Royals. He learned, though, that the people wouldn’t accept him, because he wasn’t a lineal Royal. Conflict continued on his planet and among the other planets. Kivar could never inherit the Seal. Only Royals with Antarian blood, like Max and Michael, could inherit the Seal.

Kivar wanted an heir he could control. It would bring him status and power. An heir who gained the Seal would have healing powers like Max. The heir could keep Kivar alive and healthy for a very long time. Max and Tess’ child was fully human. He couldn’t inherit the Seal. Baby Zan was unsuitable for Kivar’s purposes. Kivar then went to Earth to get Isabel, so she would produce a Royal, lineal heir with Antarian blood. After such a child was born, Kivar would kill Max, and the Seal would pass on to the new heir, who Kivar would control.

:)

But Max was, what 99 % human ? there was just a difference in blood cells, but apart from that, he was human. So were his powers. And he had the seal.

The question is, why, if Zan is Max's son, he didn't get the seal ? just because he was fully human ? ok, but in that case, there is the possibility that Max's next son (not a girl since apparentely, no girl can access power) will be human too, so who would be the heir, if there aren't any ? isn't there a risk that the antarian monarchy dies, if there is no heir ?

I don’t think Max and the other podsters were 99% human. I think they were both human and Antarian. Max’s check cells also weren’t human.

Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess were still Royals, even though they weren’t 100% Antarian. They could be partly human and still be Royals, but Max and Michael had to have Antarian blood and be Royal to inherit the Seal.

You’re right, xmag. Any child that any of them might have might not have Antarian blood, since they were hybrids. There might be a risk that the monarchy could die out. There are cultures on Earth without a monarchy and the same thing could happen to Antar. However, even after the four Royals had been murdered, they were recreated and the line continued. Gandarium was sent along on the ship, so perhaps the allies foresaw the possibility that the Royals might need to be recreated again, after they lived on Earth.

Nasedo had planned to capture each of the Royal Four, including Tess, sequentially and hold them at the old military hospital, until a lineal, Royal heir with Antarian blood was produced.

Nasedo had impersonated Max and framed Max for all the silver handprint murders. Max would have been captured later, even if he hadn’t been captured at the carnival. Nasedo hadn’t killed Pierce, even though he stood right next to Pierce in the white room, because Nasedo still needed Pierce for capturing the other three. Nasedo knew when he took Michael past the security door that Michael wasn’t a Special Unit agent. Nasedo planned for Michael to be captured next. Then Nasedo could shapeshift into Michael or Max and trick Isabel and Tess into getting captured, too.

The Special Unit had drugs which prevented Max from using his powers. The four podsters could be held indefinitely in the old military hospital, until a suitable lineal, Royal heir with Antarian blood was born. Then Max would be killed and the heir would inherit the Seal. Nasedo would then hand over the heir to Kivar.

Nasedo had told Tess part of the plan, because he needed Tess’ help to find out about Max, Michael, and Isabel, their habits, and their powers. Nasedo lied to Tess, telling her that Kivar was her ally and that Max, Michael, and Isabel were her enemies. Tess helped Nasedo for a while, but she turned against him. She told Nasedo that Max, Michael, and Isabel were her family, not Nasedo. She showed Max, Michael, and Isabel the podchamber.

Nasedo had to stay away from Max as much as possible, because he had to do what Max told him. Later, Nasedo got the Special Unit disbanded, so he could again return to Roswell and carry out Kivar’s wishes. Even though the Special Unit was disbanded, Nasedo could again use the old military hospital.

:lol:
xmag, you have no idea how many times I've wanted to ask the same thing! :lol:
Yes, I know all about the reasons for an heir as CV neatly describes above.
But, maybe because I've been a single mom for many years, I couldn't imagine selfish old Kvar want to share one instant of glory with baby Zan. :look:

I thought that Khivar wanted to execute the royals on Antar, to discourage the people and to kill their hope, by seeing by themselves that they were dead for good ?

Do you know that there are still people in France who believe that Louis XVII had survived jail ? he was pronounced dead, but the people didn't get to see the body, and up until now, more than 200 years later, there are still people who don't believe in his death as a kid, and there are even people pretending being descendants of Louis XVII, who had lived a normal life after being saved :eek: ?

I think the baby was just a plot to make the R4 go back to Antar. Would they let a baby die on Earth, if they thought he couldn't survive ? of course not, they would come back to Antar, and bam, once there, all are executed publicly.

Kivar had killed the group once. Kivar had Tess on Antar, but he didn’t kill her.

Kivar had baby Zan on Antar. He didn’t hold the baby hostage, because he thought that Max didn’t care about the baby or Tess, since Max hadn’t accompanied Tess to Antar.

Kivar wanted to kill baby Zan, because the baby was Max’s child. People might one day follow Max and Tess’ child, even though the child couldn’t inherit the Seal. The baby was the child of the true king, even though the child was human.

Nicholas told Lonnie that Kivar wanted a nice public execution, but Nicholas also told Lonnie to kill Max, if Max didn’t take the deal. Nicholas wasn’t doing what Kivar wanted. Nicholas was trying to get the Granilith for himself, so he could leave Earth.

Killing the Royals again would be a reminder that the Royals had been recreated after their first death. Killing them publicly a second time would tell people that the Royals might be recreated again, as they were, after their first death. :) The return of the Royals for public execution could inspire an uprising against Kivar.

Nasedo told Tess that she was supposed to produce an heir and hand over Max, Michael, and Isabel to Kivar. Nasedo needed Tess’ help, because he had to stay away from Max as much as possible. Kivar needed an heir who could inherit the Seal. Kivar didn’t need the Royals on Antar. Nasedo wasn’t going to let Tess go to Antar freely. Nasedo planned to hold Tess, Max, Michael, and Isabel in the old military hospital to produce a suitable heir for Kivar.

Kivar didn't kill Max or Michael, when he came to Earth, because no lineal Royal heir with Antarian blood had yet been born, for the Seal to pass on to.

Kivar needed a lineal Royal heir who could inherit the Seal. The Seal gave the person with it the power of great healing. Controlling the heir with the Seal would give Kivar an extended life span and status he didn’t currently have.

The Summit members had used great amounts of their resources, in order to confer with Max on Earth. The true King had status among the people of other planets. Kivar had no status and no standing. He had killed the Royals. Conflict continued for over fifty years on his planet. The other planets fought Kivar and themselves.

Kivar needed a Royal, lineal heir that he could control, in order to improve his position and in order to improve his health and longevity.

:)

Yes, that's more like it, a direct heir would get followers, despite Khvar's attempts to kill the resistance.


That would explain why he went after Vilandra on Antar, and later on, Isabel. He wanted his own heir, with a Royal, and a direct one, not one through marriage.

Agreed.
Only 2½ years after the series finale, and we've finally figured it out. Just a little sarcasm. Have they ever figured out what happened to Anastasia when the Royals of Russia were murdered? (Rhetorical question only.)

Except now you've got me wondering if Kvar had killed baby Zan, wouldn't that have made him a martyr? Oh. Yeah. That's probably why Kvar sent Zan back to Earth with Tess. But in Roswell, the Next Generation, I can imagine Kvar's evil daughter (by whom? Not Tess for my continuing saga) scouring Earth in search of Zan with whom to have a royal heir.
:yawn: :wave: :sleep:

Sweet Dreams, shapeshifter!

:) I doubt that Kivar would want children from Max and Tess’ child Zan. Otherwise, Kivar would have held baby Zan on Antar. Kivar wouldn’t have wanted to kill baby Zan, if Kivar thought he might want children from him one day. Baby Zan was fully human and couldn’t inherit the Seal. So, I don’t think Kivar wants baby Zan or children from him.

I think it’s more likely that Kivar would go after any children with Antarian blood that Isabel or Max might produce, since such children could inherit the Seal. Currently, Max and Isabel have left Roswell. Their location presumably would be unknown to Kivar.

Kivar might still wish to kill baby Zan, in order to prevent him from gaining a following one day. Kivar might be able to track down baby Zan’s location through Max’s parents, who took baby Zan to New York for adoption. Zan’s life might still be in danger from Kivar.

Ah, yes, now I remember another possibility I wanted to post but was to sleepy to do.
I always imagined that possibly Zan was very much not human, and did have the ability to receive the seal. Recall Max took the seal back from Michael and was in possession of it (or was it in possession of him? ;) ). So, imagine that Kvar both lied about Zan's Earthliness (not wanting the masses to worship the heir apparent (or the heir's parent ;) ), and didn't kill him so he wouldn't become a martyr. Max did say in the Granilith chamber at the end of Season 2 that it was Tess's idea to get pregnant so they'd all go back to Antar and be at Kvar's mercy. I was never quite sure how that would play out, but it makes sense (that the plan wasn't a very good one) if the scheme was a plan b dreamed up by a smitten teenage girl rather than Nasedo. So, if Kvar didn't anticipate this development (a baby with seal potential), but rather something like another bloody wedding between Max & Tess on Antar (remember Whittaker's boast about history always repeating itself), then Kvar would have lied so that the Roswell Royals wouldn't have any idea about Zan's true alien nature. That way Max would never give the seal to Zan. Okay. This is getting complicated. Someone else can fill in the gaps. I'm just picturing a 17-year-old Zan who looks like a young Brad Pitt and is being stalked by some Kvarian who wants to take the seal (i.e. kill Zan). Don't forget that last scene at the end of 4AAAB when Max waves his hand over Zan and gives "him a memory." It sure looked to me like Max could've been giving Zan the seal! Or, maybe just a memory of the seal which young man Zan will seek in Roswell TNG, or whatever the next incarnation of Roswell gets named. :D

Tess hadn’t planned to hand her child or Max, Michael, or Isabel over to Kivar. Handing the baby and the other Royals over to Kivar was what Nasedo told Tess that Kivar wanted her to do.

Tess rejected Nasedo. She hadn’t known that he had killed people. She took Max, Michael, and Isabel to the podchamber, without telling Nasedo. She told Nasedo that Max, Michael, and Isabel were her family—not Nasedo.

Tess wanted to return to Antar to the allies who had sent her. She hoped that Max would want to return, too. She loved Max. Tess changed her mind about Max, after Max kissed Liz, while Tess was pregnant with his child. Max didn’t apologize to Tess for hurting her. Max didn’t stand by Tess, after he learned that she had caused Alex’s death. To Tess, Max proved he was her enemy. In the Granilith chamber, Tess then believed that Nasedo had been telling her the truth—that Kivar was her ally and that Max, Michael, and Isabel were her enemies. Max started to kill Tess. He didn’t leave Earth with Tess. Tess had no choice then, but to check to see if Kivar was her ally.

Kivar wasn’t Tess’ ally. Kivar wanted to kill Tess’ child.

Kivar tested baby Zan. He told Tess the baby was human. Tess returned to Earth, with the baby. Max and Michael had tested Jesse’s blood, using a microscope. Liz and Max had tested Jennifer Coleman’s blood, to see if she was an alien. Max loved baby Zan. Evidently, Max checked the baby’s blood and cheek cells to see whether or not the baby was human. If the baby had been alien, Max wouldn’t have given the baby up for adoption. Max wanted the baby to have a safe life. The baby wouldn’t have been safe with humans, if he was alien.

I think Max gave baby Zan a memory—not the Seal—as Max told his mother. Max knew the problems and responsibilities the Seal entailed. Max wouldn’t have given the Seal to an innocent baby, who would then be hunted by aliens. He wouldn’t have wanted his child to be an alien living with humans.




I don’t think Max could give the Seal to anyone, unless Max died. The Seal was “stenciled to his brain.” Michael didn’t get the Seal, until after Max died. Michael had the Seal on his chest, not on his brain. Max was able to take the Seal from Michael, without Michael dying. I don’t think Max could give the Seal to anyone. I think the Seal could only pass from Max, upon his death.

Max and Tess’ child would be 17 in the year 2018. He might look like Brad Pitt, as you suggest, shapeshifter! Kivar or his followers might try to kill Zan, as you say. However, since baby Zan didn’t get the Seal after Max’s died healing Clayton, I doubt that Zan could ever inherit the Seal. Even supposing that Max and Tess’ Zan had the Seal someday, Kivar or his followers wouldn’t be able to get the Seal, as the Seal only passed on to Royals.

________________________________

:)

screencaps from Momo’s Roswell

BAby Zan is still in danger, in my opinion. Seal or not, he still is Max's son. There will always be people ready to follow him, as the heir, just like there were some followers of Napoleon's and Marie Louise's son, the little king of Rome (i don't remember his name right now, just his title). He had people believing in him, even when he was raised as a german, just because of who his father was.

I wanted to ask you : in "summer of 47", Michael relives what happened with the crash, and all the persons he knows in the year 2000 get to play a role in the 1947 storyline.

Do you think it was just a coincidence that Michael gave the role of a two timing woman to Isabel ? because shortly after that, her past as Vilandra resurfaced, and, well, she was cheating on Rath with Khivar, just like the 1947 character Michael associated her with.

So, coincidence or a subconscious memory ? after all, in S3, when Isabel was on her honeymoon, he remembered some things from their past, so who knows ?

Michael had feelings for Isabel. He stood by Isabel, when he and Isabel thought she was pregnant with his child, even though they hadn’t had sex together. Isabel wasn’t interested in Michael romantically. The simultaneous dreams they had of being with each other could have been simultaneous mindwarps from Tess, who thought they should be together.

Michael was in love with Maria. When he was leaving Roswell at graduation time, he told Maria that he loved her from the moment he kidnapped her and stole her car. Maria was the girl for him. He never wanted anyone else. Isabel was interested in Alex romantically for a while. Later, she was interested in Grant. She wasn’t ever interested in Michael romantically. The dreams of being with Michael disturbed her. She turned to Alex.

The message from Isabel and Max's Antarian mother said that her daughter had been betrothed to her son’s Second-in-Command. Isabel, in her previous life as Vilandra, had fallen in love with Kivar.

Sometimes, children are betrothed by their parents. Michael later remembered that Isabel as Vilandra had loved Kivar and trusted Kivar. That indicates that Michael as Rath and Isabel as Vilandra had a trusting and understanding relationship with each other, since Michael/Rath knew Isabel/Vilandra’s thinking and feelings. Neither of them had been interested in marrying the other. Isabel/Vilandra wanted to be with Kivar, and Michael/Rath knew that and respected that.





In the episode Summer of ‘47, Michael visualized the people he knew as the people in Hal Carver’s life. He visualized himself as Hal. Michael visualized Maria as Betty Orsorio, an investigative reporter, who Hal said had a great voice and great legs. Michael visualized Alex as Captain Sheridan Cavitt, who was senior counter-intelligence agent and was known around the base as Mr. Brain. Michael mentioned that Cavitt gave out the story about the crash being a weather balloon. Hal then called Cavitt a pencil neck. I don’t think Michael thought Alex was a pencil neck or that Alex was like the bossy Captain Cavitt. I think Michael thought of Alex as a brain and he pictured Alex as Cavitt, because Hal called him Mr. Brain.

Later, Michael visualized Isabel as Rosemary, the girl Hal had been seeing. Michael had already visualized Maria as Betty Orsorio, so he pictured Isabel as Rosemary. When Michael pictured Isabel as Rosemary, he didn’t know what would happen in the rest of Hal’s story.

In answer to your question, xmag, I don’t think Michael thought of Isabel as a two-timing woman. I think Michael visualized Isabel as Rosemary, because Hal said Rosemary wasn’t a girl, she was a woman. I think Michael thought of Isabel as being a woman, because she had turned 18 and was interested in Grant, who was an older guy. I think Michael loved Isabel as a great friend. I don’t think Isabel as Vilandra had cheated on Michael as Rath in their previous lives, either. I think Isabel/Vilandra and Michael/Rath had been betrothed to each other by their parents, but neither was in love with the other. Neither two-timed the other.

Michael and Isabel had been sent to Earth together, but they didn’t two-time the other, because they weren’t together as a couple, when they each fell in love with other people. :)

I think the writers may have implied that maybe Isabel could have cheated on Michael in their past lives by making Rosemary the type of person she was. Earlier, Whitaker told Isabel that as Vilandra she had betrayed everyone. Later, Isabel fell in love with Jesse and married him. Kivar tried to take her away with him. Michael remembered that Isabel hadn’t betrayed anyone. Isabel had loved and trusted Kivar, who betrayed her love and killed everyone. Isabel’s and Jesse’s love for each other saved Isabel from Kivar. :)

________________________________________
screencap from Momo’s Roswell

I was talking about Vilandra, not Isabel. We can't deny that Rath and Vilandra were engaged, and that Vilandra had an affair with Khivar. In their past lives. I am not talking about Michael and Isabel, when i mentioned the Rosemary being played by KH.

I was asking if Michael giving Isabel's face to Rosemary the two timing woman in 1947, was a subconscious memory of Vilandra, still in him, buried deep. We learned later on that they all had some memories of their past lives.

Isabel fell in love with Jesse and married him, and she had feelings for Alex, feelings that might have gone further had he lived.

Michael thought of each person in Hal’s story before he knew how Hal’s story would progress.

For example, Hal Carver later told Michael that Betty Osorio was killed. Maria, who Michael envisioned as Betty, was still alive.

The people Michael envisioned in Hal’s story had some qualities that prompted Michael to think of people he knew, as Hal told his story. Other qualities and attributes of the people Hal talked about didn't really fit the people Michael knew.

Michael didn’t know that Rosemary would be with the Sheriff, when he envisioned Isabel as Rosemary.

Isabel as Vilandra had been betrothed to Rath at one time, in their previous lives.




My daughter, the man you were betrothed to, and your brother's second-in-command.

Isabel’s Antarian mother used the words “were betrothed to” not the words “are betrothed to”. Her mother used the past tense—not the present tense.

Being betrothed in an arranged marriage doesn’t mean that either person wants to marry the other.

Isabel/Vilandra hadn’t married Michael/Rath. Vilandra didn’t “two-time” Rath. She had been betrothed to Rath, at one time. Michael/Rath knew that Vilandra loved and trusted Kivar. Michael knew that Kivar betrayed Isabel/Vilandra’s love.


Kivar said that Isabel loved him. As Vilandra in the past, she did. Isabel wasn’t in love with Kivar, when he came for her. She didn’t want to be with Kivar. Kivar had powers over Isabel, which almost enabled him to leave with her. Isabel told Kivar that she would personally kill him, if he ever came back again.

Nicholas told Isabel that Kivar was her lover.

NICHOLAS: It's what you want. You just can't remember. I'm here to take you back to him, Vilandra. The leader of the rebellion. The man who currently sits on your brother's tarnished throne. The man for whom you sacrificed a kingdom. Your lover, Kivar.

Nicholas also said that Isabel sacrificed the kingdom for Kivar. However, Michael remembered that Isabel hadn’t betrayed anyone. She had trusted Kivar. Kivar lied to her. He told her he wanted peace. Kivar killed Isabel/Vilandra and the others.

Isabel/Vilandra loved Kivar. We don’t know whether or not she had been intimate with Kivar. Nicholas said Kivar was her lover, but he also said that she sacrificed a kingdom. Nicholas lied about Vilandra sacrificing a kingdom. Nicholas may also have lied about Vilandra being Kivar’s lover.

Whitaker said that Vilandra had a great love.

WHITAKER: You don't remember, do you? Let me give you a piece of history about your planet. Your name was Vilandra, and you were beautiful...even more beautiful than you are now. You had a great love...and for him...for us...you betrayed your brother, your race.
ISABEL: No.
WHITAKER: You sacrificed him. You sacrificed everyone...even yourself. And history, my dear, always repeats itself.


Whitaker didn’t say that Vilandra had been intimate with Kivar. She said that Vilandra had a great love.

Vilandra hadn’t wanted anything bad to happen to her brother or to the kingdom. Vilandra hadn’t sacrificed herself or everyone. Vilandra had wanted peace. She had loved and trusted Kivar, who lied to Vilandra, pretending he wanted peace.

I think Vilandra and Rath had been betrothed to each other by their parents for a while. I think Vilandra and Rath weren’t in love with each other or betrothed to each other anymore, when Vilandra fell in love with Kivar. I don’t think Vilandra “two-timed” Rath.

I don’t think Vilandra was like Rosmary, who had been widowed once and divorced twice, all before her 25th birthday, and who had casual affairs for simple pleasure.

Vilandra had loved Kivar deeply, not casually, the way Rosemary involved herself with Hal and the Sheriff. :)




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screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries

xmag, great questions/speculations.
C&V, great backstory.
I tend to agree with C&V about Michael using the faces of those he knew best to help him visualize Hal's story.
But I also agree with xmag that the 2-timing Rosemary probably was supposed to refer in some way to either Isabel and/or Vilandra.
I'm leaning towards it being sort of a coincidence that Hal's story was parallel to Anatarian legendary events--but an intended coincidence on the part of the writers. I don't have anything to back this up; I just like to have some metaphysical speculations about Roswell. :look: ;)

Re:Although....Vilandra was widowed in the sense of having lost her betrothed in the Antarian incident, and had evidentally 2-timed Rath, and she had distanced herself from both Kvar and Michael, a sort of representation of 2 divorces.
There's also room to cast Alex or Grant in the role of the one who left her widowed. There are many possible parallels between Rosemay and Isabel. But I still like to think (like C&V) that Michael initially just chose the faces of those who fit the characters as they were initially introduced.
After that, we can have all kinds of 'fun' figuring out how the 1947 characters compare with their counterparts.

But I have to admit that I had never thought about any of this before.

Very interesting concepts about Isabel and Rosemary. I as well hadn't thought about any of the similarities. That episode is actually one of my favorites from season two. It truly had the feel of 1947 and carried the experience of the crash incident very true to it's form.

The character of Michael was always hard to read, when it came about his relationships with the other characters. We knew of his on/off affair with Maria, or his love/hate relationship with Max (not like that ;) ), but what about the others ? I think that the episodes "Summer of 47" and "Viva Las Vegas" gave us an insight of Michael's mind, how he saw people.

For example, in VLV, his alias "Dr Love" was sarcastic, because he was anything but romantic, Maria was "Margarita Salt", which was a really spicy alias, and a bit old, like the movie stars, such as Greta Garbo, Rita Hayworth, and it was proved later on when she sang an old song. Max was "Rob Roy", the hero of Michael's favorite movie, and the leader of his clan.
Isabel was "Brandy Alexander", a very fashionable name, i don't remember Alex's alias, what was it ? Tess was "Pina Colada". I don't know about you but i think of something alien, not in alien from outer space, but alien from Mexico, not the US. Did this mean that for Michael, Tess was an outsider to the group ? possible. Liz was "Shirley Temple", who was known as a kid, but forgotten as an actress when she was an adult (everybody has in mind the cute little girl with curly hair, but i can't picture her as an adult), so does it mean he saw her as a kid ? Kyle, i don't remember Kyle, either, what was his alias in "VLV" ?

Alex's alias was Tom Collins and Kyle's was Harvey Wallbanger.<---Did that last name sound a bit kinky to anybody else besides me? :eyebrows: :D

Kinky, no doubt about that ;) . I wonder what Michael wanted to hint at, with this one. For Alex, it might have been a ;) between Colin = Collins, and Tom, because of Colin's father, Tom Hanks ?

Hey, when I hear the name "Shirley Temple" I don't think of the girl in the movies, rather, I think of Shirley Temple-Black. Wasn't she that beautiful, middle aged brunette senator from California? Her choice later in life was political, not movies; a choice many other well known movie stars have followed in the trend setting state.

I knew that, i think she was a diplomate in Europe, a ambassador maybe ? but still, the feeling of things, was that Michael was thinking more in terms of movies(Rob Roy, Shirley Temple, Tom Collins for Tom Hanks, Margarita Salt for Rita Hayworth...) than in politics.

Yes, I soooo don't see Michael paying any attention to politics anyway.... Well not on Earth anyway. :D I don't know about him thinking of her as a child, but it makes more sense than the political thing. I mean hey, if he were going to name anybody after an ambassador or something, it would be Max right? :)

Kate:daisy:

The obvious is they are all the names of popular mixed drinks. When I first saw that episode, I didn't think there was anymore depth to the names. :goof:

Rob Royn, Shirley Temple and Dr Love are drinks ?

Yes, they sure are. I can't tell you how any are made, I don't use the stuff, but I've heard of them from many friends. I do know the Shirly Temple is a very mild mixed drink usually catered to female, thus it's name.

This is a fun discussion! I never thought of the movie star connection to the names, except for Tom Collins as a combination of Tom Hanks and Colin Hank’s names. Very cool and insightful, xmag! :)

I completely missed the connection between the name for Max and "Rob Roy", who was a hero and leader of his clan in Michael's favorite movie "Braveheart". :) Very astute! :)

A Shirley Temple is a non-alcoholic drink made with ginger ale and Grenadine, garnished with a lemon slice and a cherry. It’s served to children, and to people under age 21, and to others who prefer non-alcoholic drinks. :)

Margaritas are often served with salt on the rim of the glass. Harvey Wallbanger and Piña Colada are drinks. Brandy Alexander is a drink made with ice cream. Tom Collins and Rob Roy are drinks, too.

(Dr. Love, their host Michael, isn’t a drink. :))

Fun and excellent aliases for all! Thanks, xmag and everyone!

:)

So half of the aliases were actors, and the others were drinks ?

Good point, Brown Eyes. Perhaps even more to the point for our discussion of metaphors, she was an ambassador for several years. Liz often stood as a peace-maker or protector between the humans of the world and the aliens. Also, dancing was a big part of her stage career, and Shiri is a dancer--though in Roswell, as Liz, her venue was primarily an empty bowling alley. ;) Oh, and let's not forget "Shiri" is much like "Shirley" Temple.



Too tired to do the math now :yawn: but if that is so, it would be parallel to the early cast of just 3 alien and 3 human teens.

Shirley Temple was a motion picture actress. Her birth name was Shirley Jane Temple Black. Shirley Temple is also the name of a non-alcoholic drink served in bars.

In 1967, Shirley Temple Black ran as a Republican candidate for the Congress of the United States. Temple was a member of the U.S. delegation to the United Nations, (1969-1970). She became the first woman in U.S. history to serve as Chief of Protocol during the administration of President Gerald R. Ford. Her autobiography, Child Star, was published in 1988. (information from here.) The similarities between the name Shirley and Shiri make sense, as a choice the writers would make.

I think Michael chose the name for Liz for a different reason. :)

All the aliases Michael selected in Las Vegas are names of drinks served in bars, except for Michael’s name. 7/8 of the names were drinks. Kyle (Harvey Wallbanger), Tess (Piña Colada), Alex (Tom Collins), Isabel (Brandy Alexander), Maria (Margarita Salt), Liz (Shirley Temple), and Max (Rob Roy) are all names of drinks. :) Michael’s alias (Dr. Love) isn’t a drink.

Again, thanks everyone for the discussion! Interesting ideas! :)

Hmmm...so, are half of the aliases drink names that were named after actors, and the other half drink names not named for actors?

It's too late for me to look them all up, but here's a link to a page describing various possible origins of the drink name, Tom Collins, which does not appear to relate to an actor's name.So, now I'm thinking the aliases that were drinks named after actors might represent aliens (hybrids) and the others would be drink names originating with ordinary human's names.
But it seems Pina Colada is not a 'hybrid name.'

And to make things even more complicated, some drinks were created FROM ACTORS'S NAMES, or CHARACTERS : Rob Roy existed in Scotland, what, 6 centuries ago ? Shirley Temple was a celebrity in the 30's, and who knows about the others, Tom Collins could have been an actor who wasn't famous.