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Topic Subject: RBI #2 - Investigating SciFi, Myths, Plots, and Details! |
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Posted 06-01-2003 05:25 AM by Citrus and Vine
Welcome to Roswell Bureau of Investigation! Here sluething of details, plots, and myths abound. Link to previous thread - The RBI Returns: New Plot Holes, Mythology, and SciFi, oh my! shapeshifter, who began the previous thread, requested that someone begin a new thread. She has begun a Weblog of Roswell television show and books. She has also compiled Science Fiction and Mythology Archives which detail past discussions of Roswell, the television show. Currently, we have been discussing Nasedo's motives in Max to the Max. However, all discussions of Roswell are welcomed! |
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Posted 06-01-2003 05:55 AM by Citrus and Vine
Nasedo Nasedo had a problem. He had a problem with Liz and with Pierce, the head of the Special Unit. But neither Liz nor Pierce were Nasedo’s main problem. Nasedo had killed humans before. He liked to kill and could do so quickly and easily. He had killed three previous heads of the Special Unit with no difficulty. Nasedo could simply transform himself into someone familiar, and then kill his target. Nasedo’s overriding problem and concern was that he lost control of the podsters. Max, Michael, and Isabel left the podchamber soon after they were born, without his knowledge. Nasedo could not find them for over 10 years. Nasedo’s main problem was how to get them back under his control. He first waited for Tess to try to turn them to their Antarian roots. Tess’ mindwarp of Max, Michael, and Isabel worked. They all three saw and believed and felt things that were not true. Max believed that he kissed Tess. Isabel believed that she was somehow pregnant by Michael. Michael felt happy with the idea that he and Isabel had a child together. But Tess’ mindwarp was ineffective in producing the results she had hoped for. Max knew in his heart who he really loved. So did Michael and Isabel. Tess could not change what was in people’s hearts with her mindwarp. She could not change deeply held beliefs and convictions. Tess’ mindwarp had limitations. Tess wanted the three to remember who they were. Tess led Max, Michael, and Isabel to the podchamber. Nasedo was very upset that Tess had taken them to the podchamber. He was upset that Tess had acted on her own, and that she considered the three to be her family, and not Nasedo. Nasedo was losing control of Tess, as well. Nasedo had to change things around. He had to get the podsters away from their human connections. He needed them to want to go to Antar, instead of settling in on Earth. Nasedo hatched his plan. Disguised as Max, he took Liz. He needed her to be his victim. He needed to make it appear that Max killed Liz at the fair. Nasedo also needed to assume the identity of a law enforcement person with some standing, so he could arrest Max and get Max under his control. If Max were on the run from murder charges, Max would then need Nasedo’s help. It was not enough for Nasedo to have Max on the run only from murder charges. Max’s dad was a lawyer, so Max might insist on facing the charges, especially since he would not have actually killed Liz. Nasedo needed Max to be on the run from the Special Unit, as well. That would be more than Max’s dad could protect Max from. Nasedo’s plan was to kill Liz in the maze, leaving a silver handprint. He would also kill Valenti and assume Valenti’s identity. He would stash Valenti’s body in a hidden compartment in the maze. That way, Nasedo could leave the fair safely. As Valenti, Nasedo could say he saw Max kill Liz in the maze and escape. Pierce would likely institute a search for Max in the surrounding area. Meanwhile, Nasedo would return to Roswell and, as Valenti, arrest Max for Liz’s murder. Nasedo would take Max into safety. Tess thought Nasedo's plan was to kill Pierce. But Nasedo did not need to kill Pierce at the fair. He could kill Pierce anytime. He needed for the Special Unit and law enforcement to actively hunt Max, so Max would stay in hiding and be motivated to go to Antar. In that way, Nasedo’s deal with Kivar could be fulfilled. [ 06-01-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 06-01-2003 01:24 PM by Reggie
I agree that Nacedo does seem to have a one-track mind. Perhaps this is connected to Atherton's comments on the aliens' mental insufficiency? They need to be able to keep track of several things at once, as we do, to survive here. As for the whole Nacedo-K' var bargain business: I continue to maintain that that was cooked up by Nikolas, for use in manipulating Tess as his cat'spaw to bring Max "home". That's why Nacedo had to die. Only he could deny the bargain, or help the Podsters as Nikolas tempted each one to throw in with him: Isabel's vanity (K' var wanted her for his Queen), then Max's desire for power, without responsibility (the MitC offer). Next was Tess's pathologic loyalty to authority: "What do we do now, Max?" was her weakness. If she could be convinced (without Nacedo's objection) that it was her Duty to bring all four to K' var, then she would. And almost did. |
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Posted 06-01-2003 07:16 PM by Stargazer_md
The main thing that has impressed me about Nacedo is that he (they) are pretty poor protectors, as his method of killing shines a spotlight on the aliens. He could of used a hockey mask and chainsaw and caused less problems. By the time Max and the pod squad were outed, the FBI was already ready for war with them. |
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Posted 06-02-2003 12:18 AM by shapeshifter
Citrus & Vine, excellent start to the new thread! And I have just added the old RBI thread to the archives here. Hi Reggie! LOL, Stargazer, you are so right! |
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Posted 06-02-2003 04:59 PM by The Real Momo
If Nacedo's motive was to kill Liz, Valenti, and Pierce, he didn't need to do it in Hondo. Nor did Nasedo have plans to kill Liz, Valenti & Pierce in the maze. Liz flees to the maze in an effort to escape from Maxcedo so Maxcedo winds up in the maze by accident, not by plan. Nothing in the script even hints as Nasedo wanting to kill Liz, just Pierce. Nasedo's intentions were to draw Pierce away from the pod squad. That's the only reason he chose Hondo. It was not a premeditated plan to kill all three in one fell swoop. From the dialogue, Pierce is the only one Nasedo considers a danger to the pod squad. I think he chose not to kill Liz because he didn't need to. Besides, he had too much fun kissing her. (It wasn't Whitaker that awaken his desire .. it was Liz! ... Perhaps Maxcedo was enjoying being Max to the max!) But taking it one step further, what if it wasn't Maxcedo's plan at all? What if it were Tess controlling Nasedo? If Max could command the protectors and the protectors had to obey, would Tess, as Queen, also have the same control? Certainly, Tess had more reason for Liz to be out of the way than Nasedo. If Nasedo had to obey Tess, then, yes, Nasedo would have had to kill Liz because it was a royal command. I do think we tend to think of Nasedo as being more "brilliant" than he was. We have to really look at the Antarian's purpose for Nasedo -- that as "protector" or "bodyguard". I tend to think of Nasedo as a foot soldier or drone with someone else pulling the strings, issuing orders. And since the Skins did not know that Max and company were in Roswell at that time (confirmed by Whitaker's diaries on silverhandprint.com), that leaves Tess as the unaccounted for "baddie." |
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Posted 06-02-2003 07:25 PM by Citrus and Vine
It was Valenti and Liz who were Nasedo’s targets at the fair. Nasedo wanted Pierce at the fair to be a witness to what would happen. Nasedo toyed with Liz on the Merry-Go-Round. He could have taken control of her there. Instead, he waited idly on the horse. He waited for Liz to jump off the Merry-Go-Round. Nasedo did not chase Liz when she fell to the ground. He easily could have gained control of Liz when she fell, too. Instead, Nasedo let Liz spot the maze and enter the maze alone, which was his plan. Nasedo then followed Liz. He paused by the maze’s entrance to make certain Valenti spotted him before he entered the maze. Again, all part of Nasedo's plan. IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S1/gal119/th.119_240.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S1/gal119/th.119_241.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S1/gal119/th.119_242.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S1/gal119/th.119_243.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S1/gal119/th.119_244.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S1/gal119/th.119_245.jpg
Nasedo had to kill Liz in his original plan. He had kidnapped her. Liz had no reason at all to protect Nasedo. She would have reported Nasedo’s actions, if he had simply let her go after kidnapping her and murdering someone. Nasedo identified himself to Liz as Ed Harding. He would not have done that if he knew Liz could report Ed Harding to the authorities. Max, Michael, and Isabel had no reason to protect Nasedo either. They would not ask Liz to protect Nasedo. If Nasedo let Liz live in his original plan, Liz would have reported his actions. Nasedo had no reason to let Liz live. He had good reasons to kill Liz. Nasedo did not kill Liz after he left the maze with her. Instead, he told her he was going to rescue Max. Killing Liz was no longer a priority. Nasedo’s plan was in ruins. Killing Liz then would have taken time and been counter-productive. Liz’s death then would have served no purpose. We know this had to be Nasedo’s plan, because the real Valenti (or other law enforcement) would have arrested Max or Ed Harding for kidnapping Liz. That would not have helped Nasedo in the least. Nasedo’s plan was to become Valenti and “arrest” Max for murder. By murdering Valenti and Liz and leaving a silver handprint, Nasedo could get Max on the run and dependent on him. Nasedo did not need the Max identity at the fair to kill Pierce. Nasedo knew Pierce and what Pierce’s intentions were. Nasedo could have killed Pierce as easily as he killed the agent on the street. He could have gotten Pierce out of Roswell with a phone call and killed Pierce elsewhere in the guise of the agent he had already killed, if all Nasedo wanted to do was kill Pierce away from Roswell. Nasedo knew who was in the Special Unit. He knew them by sight. He taught Tess what they looked like. (Tess correctly identified the agents as they passed them at mile marker 67.) Nasedo could kill Pierce at his leisure. He did not need the fair or Max's identity to kill Pierce. Nasedo had no need to kill Pierce at the fair. Nasedo’s main objective was to get Max under his control, so he could fulfill his deal with Kivar. Nasedo tried to do that in a plan to make it appear that Max had killed Liz. ~~~ [ 06-02-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 06-02-2003 09:52 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
The Real Momo You've made a great point in your post that I never thought of before, if Max is the King and can give orders to Nascedo, then what's to say that Tess being the Queen couldn't give commands also? I love reading your posts because I get a lot of insights and thoughts that are great. It could of been Tess's plan all along to kill Liz and get her out of the way and Nascedo had to follow her orders. Boy, I love your insights. Keep up the great work. [ 06-02-2003: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
Posted 06-02-2003 10:04 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Oooo, Momo, brilliant! That would have made so much more sense than Tess who makes a Christmas dinner for the Valenti's turning into a EMHB in the end. And it would explain Nasedo's ambivalence as well. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:His primary objective was Pierce, and he wouldn't have wanted to screw that up by causing a disturbance with Liz. Besides, he 'enjoyed her company.' But, yes, if having Max & Tess mate was indeed his primary objective, killing Liz would seem obvious. But, as I think Nemo said on the other thread, maybe Nasedo's genetic coding prevented him from offing the King's chosen one. quote:I'm inclined to disagree. After The Convention, Valenti's character began its morph into Pod Protector, which I always felt Mr. Harding/Nasedo discovered in this dialogue from 4 Square, the ep right before Max2Max:
MR. HARDING: But who? Who would plant this in my house? SHERIFF: You say you’re new in town? MR. HARDING: That’s right. SHERIFF: House have any previous occupants? MR. HARDING: Brand spanking new, Sheriff. SHERIFF: You mind if I ask what line of work you’re in Mr. Harding? MR. HARDING: Government consultant, the boring stuff, facilities management, that kind of thing. No special clearances, no matters of national security, if that’s what you’re thinking. SHERIFF: You ever have any contact with the FBI? MR. HARDING: What? Oh, Lord no, Sheriff. I’m just a guy who’s trying to do his job and get along in a new town, that’s all. Nobody’s been in that house but me, my daughter and the movers...oh, and a couple of her friends from school. SHERIFF: I have heard some stories about unscrupulous moving companies in town. Staking out your place for future robberies, that sort of thing. I’ll tell you what, leave your information with my deputy outside. I promise I’ll get to the bottom of this. MR. HARDING: Well, thank you, Sheriff. I feel safe in your hands.
quote:Actually, I think they did. They wouldn't want to expose anything alien. In contrast, what was really confusing to me was why would Skin Whittaker be trying to expose aliens. Yes, there's the obvious answer that they wanted to find the granolith, but still, these aliens are not very good strategizers.
quote:Now that makes sense! I like it! Er, um, that is, it makes sense in terms of Maxcedo kidnapping Liz. I think it's a really bad idea though. But it could have worked to make Max want to leave earth if he was hunted by the law as both a human and an alien. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [ 06-02-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Posted 06-02-2003 11:56 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Killing Pierce was not Nasedo’s primary objective. Nasedo’s primary objective was discrediting Max, so Nasedo could gain control over Max. Nasedo had no trouble keeping Liz under control without creating a disturbance. Liz knew Nasedo was a killer. That is why she did not create a disturbance earlier while she was with Nasedo. She did not want to give Nasedo a reason to kill her. If Liz had created a disturbance, that would have worked in Nasedo’s favor as well. Nasedo could simply drag Liz into the maze. Or Nasedo could kill Liz outside the maze and then run into it. If Liz did create a disturbance, her rejection of "Max" would serve to explain why Max killed her. Nasedo could have killed Pierce elsewhere at his convenience, with complete anonymity. Nasedo knew the Special Unit. He knew its members. He knew enough to kill an agent, without arousing the agent’s suspicions. There was no reason to kill Pierce at the fair, except to discredit Max and force Max on the run. Nasedo’s plan was flexible. If it had been Pierce who first entered the maze following Nasedo, then Nasedo could have killed Pierce instead of Valenti. Once someone was dead at the fair, the hunt for Max would begin in earnest. Already many people were searching for Max.
Nasedo had to kill Liz, because after someone was murdered at the fair, authorities would question Liz. Nasedo could not risk letting Liz tell authorities about him. Nasedo did not want people to know he was a shapeshifter. Nasedo also wanted to be able to continue to maintain his Ed Harding identity safely. That meant Liz had to die. Nasedo wanted to get Max under his control, so he could fulfill his deal with Kivar. As long as Max lived in Roswell, Nasedo had no hope of gaining control of Max. Getting Max hunted as Liz’s killer (or anybody's killer) was a sound way to bring Max under Nasedo's control. ~~~~~ [ 06-03-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 06-05-2003 12:02 AM by shapeshifter
quote:Ah, yes, now I see your point. Once again I am reminded of that moment in Destiny when they revived Nasedo, and I soooo did get the impression that they had just resurrected their enemy. Also, Kal Langely made it clear that though he was engineered to protect, it was not by free will, and he resented it. Yes, Nasedo was the epitome of the conflicted soul, and then, with his death, all of the podsters went though similar character ruptures. |
Posted 06-05-2003 12:27 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: I thought so, too! If Nasedo had good intentions towards Max, Michael, and Isabel, he would have contacted them and given them information. He knew who they were and had been observing them. Instead, he sought to use them. ___________________________________________________________________ quote: You are so right! Both Nasedo and Kal Langley were pretty poor protectors. Nasedo tried to implicate Max in the silver handprint murders of the past. Kal Langley abandoned the podsters. Tess believed Nasedo was the podsters’ protector, but actually Nasedo just used Tess for his own ends. He wanted to gain control of the other podsters as well, in order to make good on his deal with Kivar. In my opinion, Nasedo deliberately left silver handprints to keep the Special Unit actively looking for aliens. Nasedo had no other way of tracking down Max, Michael, and Isabel. He needed the help of the Special Unit and the resources they had to locate them. Nasedo knew a lot about the Special Unit. He knew the various heads of the Special Unit. (That’s how he knew who to kill and that is how he was able to kill three of the former heads of the Special Unit.) Having access to the information the Special Unit acquired would have enabled Nasedo to learn that Max was in Roswell. (Valenti had contacted the Special Unit after Liz was shot.) Nasedo came to Roswell. He observed the podsters. He killed Hank, Michael’s foster dad. In that instance, Nasedo did not leave a body lying around, waiting to be found. Instead, Nasedo carefully buried the body, and substituted himself to make it appear that Hank was still alive. That kept Michael from being under suspicion of Hank’s murder for the moment. Perhaps Nasedo would implicate Michael in Hank’s death at a later point in time to get Michael under his control. (It was essential that Nasedo first get Max under his control.) Later, Nasedo impersonated Dr. Margolin. He showed up with the Sheriff and intercepted the podsters, as Michael went to meet Topolsky. Nasedo wanted to prevent Michael and the others from meeting with Topolsky. Possibly Nasedo knew Toposky had the other orb, and he did not want the podsters to get control of the second orb, which was essential to receive the message and send out the signal. (Since Nasedo was planning to betray three of the podsters, he did not want anything in the message to tip them off to the fact that he was not a real protector. Nasedo did not know what information would be in the message, so he could not risk their learning anything about him. Or maybe Nasedo feared that the signal might send someone to help the podsters. In any case, Nasedo did not want them to set off the orbs.) I think Nasedo learned that Topolsky went to Roswell from Pierce, who came to Roswell to capture Topolsky. The fact that Nasedo knew Toposky was in Roswell and knew the name of a doctor connected with her case indicates that Nasedo had access to that information. Kal Langley knew where Max was. I don’t think Langley knew Tess was the fourth podster. He possibly had no current information on Nasedo. He may not have known where Nasedo was over the years. They do not seem to have worked with each other. They apparently had different agendas. Possibly Kal left the podsters while Nasedo was away. Later, Nasedo may have returned to find Kal and three of the podsters gone. Nasedo may have thought that Kal took the three podsters. That would motivate Nasedo to find any information on deaths by silver handprints, in order to track down Kal and the three podsters. That would incline him to link up with the Special Unit to get current information. Kal, on the other hand, may have left the podchamber and returned to discover that three of the podsters were gone. He may have decided that he did not want to deal with Nasedo any longer. Later, Kal may have heard about the children found wandering in the desert. He may have figured out that they were the podsters who left the chamber. Kal wanted to stay on Earth. He did not want to take care of the podsters. He could not kill them, because of the programmed restraint that prevented his doing so. But he could abandon them, and he did. Kal kept tabs of Max, Michael, and Isabel in order to keep them from finding him. (Kal may have hired someone to watch them and report to him.) Kal did not want Max to go to Antar or to locate him, because then Kal might be held accountable for his past neglect of the podsters. Kal, like Nasedo, killed people when it suited him. He concealed the silver handprint when he killed, so no one would connect the deaths with aliens. Kal wanted to remain inconspicuous. Kal agreed with Max that he was Max’s protector. However, Kal was deceptive in many ways. He lied. He did not help Max freely. He only helped when compelled by a direct instruction from Max to do so. Even then, Kal found a way to weasel out of things. (Kal identified Max as an assistant and kept Max from his meeting with the General to get information on the spaceship’s location.) I wonder if Nasedo or Kal were ever really the podsters’ protectors. Perhaps they were simply surviving crew members. Nasedo used the podsters. He did not really protect them. Kal abandoned the podsters. (Apparently there was a protector for the New York duplicate set of podsters. Lonnie, Ava, and Rath knew who sent them to Earth and why. They knew the origin of their names, and that there was a dupicate set of podsters. They knew about the Granilith from their protector. Kal and Nasedo never told those things to Max, Michael, or Isabel.) Although the two shapeshifters Kal and Nasedo were referred to as protectors, they did not actually protect.
[ 06-05-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 06-05-2003 05:38 AM by Abducted Bookworm
Great points on the 'protectors.' However I have an announcement... I have just solved all the chads! It's deceptively simple... the entire show is set in the Matrix. The continuity problems? Glitches. 'Aliens' are just people capable of subconsciously affecting the matrix. It's 6 am, time for me to go to bed now that I've figured it all out.
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Posted 06-05-2003 06:50 AM by shapeshifter
Abducted Bookworm, Having not seen the Matrix or Reloaded (unlike Max & Michael), I would need some definitions to grasp your analogy. Maybe later when you have time? Or someone else? I need to be doing something else now too, but I just wanted to share the most recent cut scenes I uploaded (thanks to Momo) from Busted and Control. In particular, it's a good thing they cut this line of Max's in response to Liz--unless Max was going to completely morph into a stupid jerk :
LIZ:Where did you get it? MAX: It's one of Sheriff Valenti's. He'll never know it's missing. |
Posted 06-05-2003 03:23 PM by Abducted Bookworm
quote: I'd better not explain anything then, except that you have to go rent the Matrix. Thanks for the cut scene. Wow. I mean, wow. Okay, I know Max blackmailed his sister and involved Liz in a dangerous violent crime, etc... but they were going to have him put Valenti in danger? After all Valenti already suffered protecting them? I'm appalled. The risk... if someone had died (even if the clerk had had a gun and shot either Max or Liz) Valenti could have faced charges of felony murder if they thought he'd supplied the gun.
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Posted 06-05-2003 07:39 PM by The Real Momo
quote: It appears that Langley did know who Tess was as indicated in this scene which was abbrievated from "Control".
Langley shuts the door, and the smile drops from his face. He throws up his hand and BLASTS Max across the room. Max slams into the staircase and drops with a THUD. Langley (cont'd): You come to my home. Taunt me in front of my guests. Threaten to expose me. Dazed, Max drags himself to his feet. Langley (cont'd): It's this same blind stubbornness that ruined our planet. Langley moves in again. He blasts Max with such a force that he ricochets off the wall and flies back across the foyer. Langley raises his hand for another blast. Max: I have a son. Langley stops. Langley: You mated with another alien hybrid? Max: With Tess. Langley: You idiot. You slept with the enemy. The importance of this line indicates that Kal Langley, the only other known protector knew Tess was "the enemy". Does this imply that Langley knew about the Nasedo pact? Or did Kal know something about Tess of Antar that we never got to learn? Or was it just a reference about Tess's treachery from "Departure"? My hope: It's a clue to Queen Ava of Antar. |
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Posted 06-05-2003 08:31 PM by The Real Momo
I've been thinking about Kal and Nasedo and their roles as "protectors." In this beginning, I do believe they were probably assigned to protect the Royal Four. I also think they had other specific roles. In "Control", Max refers to Kal as "the pilot" in an early script so it does appear they had certain tasks to perform. Nasedo and Kal were both captured -- one kept for three years and whose fate in unclear. We also have the troublesome "third" protector -- unlike Langley and Nasedo, who eats TicTacs (pills) when he shapeshifts. Another problem we have is the Kal deliberately does not shapeshift so that he can enjoy the few human pleasures he can yet he doesn't deny killing Joey. Kal, for all intensive purposes, admits it. But Kal is also short. That's a problem because Joey's girlfriend describes his killer as pretty tall (cut from the script). So is Kal lying or is there a third shapeshifter/protector? As protectors, neither Kal or Nasedo measure up. This could go back to their capture. They were experimented on. This could have changed their programming, damaging or deleting parts of their encoding that may have made them better protectors. It may have given them "free will", the ability to choose their destiny. Kal describes his role as protector as It's my job." It's obvious he kept tabs on them because he did know about Max's mother, Liz, and even Tess (though this is cut from the episode). So he still may not have had a choice but to keep tabs on the Royal Four. He had to because he was programmed to, not that he wanted to. And which protector is which? Nasedo supposedly escaped immediately, but he knows Eagle Rock "intimately". Certainly, if he were the three-year captive, he would know the facility "intimately." But if he escaped almost immediately ... that may difficult to accept unless he went undercover in The Special Unit. That is a possibility because the Special Unit needed to change their security to read bone structure and fingerprint. Was Nasedo breaching security to help Kal? Or was it the dissected pod from "Summer of 47"? If Kal were kept three years, then what happened after? Did he escape? Did he make a deal with the military? Did he die and Nasedo resurrect him? We have are huge gaps about the protectors on Earth and a critical time frame -- 1959-1961/2 -- from Among Us/Atherton's death to the Nasedo Pact . Kal goes to California to be a movie producer and Nasedo splits and begins a "killing spree across the southwest". What could have changed? As for the Dupes, I don't think it came from their protector, it came from Nicholas. We know the Skins found the Dupes according to Whitaker's diaries (silverhandprint.com). Since both Whitaker and Nicholas already knew about the Granilith, it seems likely that this information came from the Skins. The Dupes were abandoned by the protectors. Why? The sac was dissected. (as seen in "Summer of '47" and confirmed in the script). There was no reason to tell the Dupes anything because I believe the protectors thought the pods were damaged and probably beyond repair or dying so Nasedo and/or Cal chucked them. |
Posted 06-06-2003 02:02 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Actually, in the episode Max in the City, Lonnie specifically says that their protector gave them information about the Granilith. LONNIE: The protector told us it's like the holy grail, some piece of junk people on our planet worship for some reason.
Lonnie only mentions one protector. So perhaps they only had one. Lonnie does not say what happened to the protector. Rath and Lonnie believed they were the originals, and that the Roswell podsters were the rejects. Nicholas scoffed at the idea, pointing out that the Roswell group got custody of the Granilith, while the New York group lived in the sewer and did not have custody of the Granilith. So someone other than Nicholas told them that there were two sets of podsters and led them to believe that they were the originals. The fact that the New York podsters knew about their names, their origins, and the Granilith indicates that their protector actually taught them things. Kal and Nasedo did not teach Max, Michael, and Isabel anything about their past, even though they knew where to find Max, Michael, and Isabel. When Max called Kal their protector, Kal said yeah, he was put on the ship to protect them, but then he told Max not to call him a protector. Kal did not want to protect the podsters, and he didn’t protect them. Kal and Nasedo did not behave like protectors to the three, unlike the protector of the New York podsters. Neither Kal nor Nasedo protected Tess, Max, Michael, or Isabel, except as it worked for their agenda or as they were compelled by a direct instruction from Max to do so. ___________________________________________________________ I think Nasedo was the shapeshifter who killed Hank and buried Hank’s body. Although there could have been a different shapeshifter who killed Hank, and who told Max and Liz to go home after they found the orb, and who impersonated Dr. Margolin, I think it was Nasedo who did those things. The fact that the shapeshifter ate tic-tacs on two occasions after shapeshifting, and later Nasedo did not eat tic-tacs after shapeshifting, just means (to me) that Nasedo chose not to eat tic-tacs after shapeshifting in his later shifts.
[ 06-06-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 06-06-2003 03:59 AM by Abducted Bookworm
Maybe he ran out of pills? Or tic tacs... could have really been tic tacs.
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Posted 06-06-2003 11:10 AM by Citrus and Vine
The shapeshifter who impersonated Hank appeared to eat tic tacs or a similar product. He ate some in the car before he went to the back of the station wagon to remove Hank’s body. After he buried Hank’s body and shapeshifted, he ate more tic tacs, again inside the car. When the shapeshifter impersonating Dr. Margolin ate tic tacs, he did so after he had changed form. But he did not eat any tic tacs inside the car. He ate them as he walked away from the car. The container can be seen as he pours the tic tac(s) into his hand. The container is like a tic tac container. The lid opens the way a tic tac container opens. The sound in both episodes is like the sound of tic tacs being poured from the container. Again, I think Nasedo was the shapeshifter who impersonated Hank and who shifted form to the man who told Max and Liz to go on home after they found the orb and who impersonated Dr. Margolin. Nasedo held up his right hand as he shifted forms, as did the shapeshifter who impersonated Hank, the man in the desert, and Dr. Margolin. Kal, on the other hand, raised his left hand holding the crystal key to the spaceship, then changed to his alien form. (Kal did not shapeshift with his open right hand palm held upright at chest level, the way Nasedo did.) I think there were only two shapeshifters we see associated with Max, Michael, and Isabel—Nasedo and Kal. ________________________________________________
quote: I think it likely that the script was written before the part of Kal was cast. Hence, the line might be cut because the actor (Joe Pantoliano) selected to play the role was not particularly tall. Kal can deceive, so it is possible he lied about when he last shapeshifted. However, we only see Kal shapeshift for certain when he changes form to try to fly the ship. |
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Posted 06-06-2003 11:50 AM by shapeshifter
ITA Bookworm and C&V with your assessment of the identity of the shapeshifter who fried Hank. But C&V, I am skeptical about anything Lonnie or Tess or Rath claims is a fact. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Check out this cut line from WDAMYK which Momo discovered:
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Posted 06-06-2003 12:58 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi shapeshifter, IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal315/th.315_095.jpg IMAGE: www.crashdown.com/screencaps/S3/gal315/th.315_096.jpg I think it is cool to have access to transitional information about the show. In Who Died and Made You King, it is Michael who gets the book from the safety deposit box at the bank. That is an entirely different idea from Liz having access to the book or the book changing. Nothing like that happens in the episode. If the book actually changed (which it did not in the episode), it would still just be a change in the historical record, not a prediction of the future. Also, suppose the book changed. Then the book translation would only cover what the book originally said. The translation would not change. Michael studied the translation, to learn more. The translation would be useless to decipher any changes in the book. Recognizing changes in pictures would work, but unless someone could translate the symbols as Alex had done, any changes in what was written would be unavailabe to them. I think the writers made a good choice in handling the plot as they did. In the episode, there is not an indication that the book changed. Instead, it is Michael who changed, because Max died.
quote: True. However, the conversation about Rath and Lonnie being two of the Royal Four occurs between Nicholas and Rath. Nicholas knew they were the duplicates, because they did not have the Granilith. But Rath and Lonnie sincerely believed they were the originals. Someone other than Nicholas gave them that idea. Someone other than Nicholas took the duplicates to New York and hid them in the sewers. Someone other than Nicholas gave them their names and information about their origins. Someone who acted in a protective capacity took the Dupes to New York, gave them names, and told them about their past. So I do not think that Lonnie was lying about having had a protector. She could have been lying about what exactly the protector told them about the Granilith.
Maybe the Roswell group wound up with the wrong protectors. [ 06-06-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 06-06-2003 06:50 PM by The Real Momo
I also agree that the Destiny Book is a historical record to a degree, but I think it's more than that. It is a predictor to a degree -- that is, when Max dies, Michael becomes king and it's indicated in the book. If it is a historical record, then what the podsters do affects what appears in the book. For example, when Tess dies (if she did), does her picture disappear? When Max marries, does Liz's picture appear as his mate. As a historical record, is it a living history? In addition, it's an instructional manual -- the whole sequence about alien abuction and explaining to the pod squad how their human bodies work. It could be other things as well. How I wish silverhandprint.com had been continued to give us that translation! I don't remember what Lonnie said regarding the protector and the Granilith. I'll have to go back and check that one. If so, I stand corrected. However, it still doesn't mean that the Lonnie and Rath had a shapeshifter for a protector. It could mean it was still one of the Skins. I don't think we know enough to really know. Lonnie was smart and may have been covering. Then again, she had "cards" to play that we never saw. Anything and everything is possible. While I'm personally inclined to believe there are only two shapeshifters, there is enough wiggle room to squeeze a third -- either a third shapeshifter watching over the pod squad and/or one to "protect" the Dupes. But I'm still inclined to think that the Skins had more influence over the Dupes than a protector. And much of Lonnie's memories, she claims to remember herself. "I remember more than the others." I think it's possible that Lonnie could have been lying about the protector. |
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Posted 06-07-2003 02:03 AM by just me
Wow! I think this is the first time i've ever been here but there are some really interesting posts here. I read them all! I mean all of the posts, not the archives. Here are some of my thoughts if y'all have any corrections please tell me.
I don't really know if Nasedo and Kal were assigned to be protecters. I would guess that the clone DNA would be kept in the labs with all the other scientific junk and that only science officers could have access to it. So it leads me to believe that they are actually scientists. (this is going off the deep end but maybe they were all injected with a loyalty serum or some such thing to keep them from leaking out the advances in technology) Nasedo and Kal could have been the closest ones to the project or just the ones that made it out of the lab alive. As for Tess' pod...i think that Nasedo somehow tampered with it to release her later then the others. Why didn't she hatch when the others did? Maybe Nasedo had already made the deal with Kivar before they were supposed to hatch and then took the one that would be able to get pregnent with Max's baby. Also Tess is signifigantly smaller than the others and may have been an easier target to manipulate. All the theorys on Max to the Max are pretty good. I haven't watched it in a while so i can't make any assumptions. I had always thought that Nasedo like the rest of any 'bad aliens' would just kill someone if he felt like it. He had a sense of humor as well. But like all 'bad aliens' they have contempt for humanity. Like Tess said in 4AAAB, "typical human response". Their ways are not our ways their actions are not our actions... |
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Posted 06-07-2003 01:55 PM by shapeshifter
So much to consider, so little time! I'm trying to get ready to move 2 blocks over next week. Still, just me, great theories! But having Nasedo & Langely be scientists doesn't ring true for me. It seems they would have taken similar roles on Earth if they were scientists on Antar. I'm thinking they were more like our astronauts--having some scientific training, but basically pilots.
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Posted 06-07-2003 02:06 PM by Abducted Bookworm
I'm pretty sure Lonnie never said 'shapeshifter.' The theory the dupes 'protector' was a Skin could be true. They didn't seem under Nicholas' control, however, or as if they ever had been. I still think there was a third shapeshifter at some point.
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Posted 06-08-2003 12:14 AM by shapeshifter
Abducted Bookworm, how you tempt me to look things up when I should be packing! From MITC:
LONNIE: What is up with you and all these questions about the shapeshifter? |
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Posted 06-08-2003 02:24 AM by just me
Okay i just read the transcript for MttM and two things are bothering me. 1) Nasedo knows that Peirce will know it's him. Peirce sees Max and then looks at the survaliance photos. Now why would Nasedo want to lure Peirce with himself? 2) Nasedo seems to not care if Liz lives or dies in the begining. He acts as if it would be better if she is capured or dead. But in the end he safely gets her out of the maze. Why? Any answers? |
Posted 06-08-2003 03:31 PM by Qfanny
quote: I don't know if I fully understand your first question. I think Tess explained what Nasedo was trying to do best, stating something to the effect, "He's going to kill Pierce." The whole maxcedo plan as to lure Pierce away from the Pod Squad to kill him. I too question Liz's purpose in his scheme, as well as his timing and the place he lured Pierce too. What purpose would a carnival venue have in maxcedo's plan? And for personal reason, Clown-sedo scares me beyond belief. -Sorry, got off track there. Your second question has been discussed to no satisfying end in my opinion. Citrus and Vine has posted on the topic and I'm off to the archives to see if I can find some reasons for #2. |
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Posted 06-08-2003 03:52 PM by Qfanny
I did a search on question 2 and it comes up a lot! Unfortantely, there was not a lot of answers. It's worth a look if you're truly interested. |
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Posted 06-09-2003 01:16 AM by just me
Thanks! In the archives you say? |
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Posted 06-10-2003 08:44 PM by shapeshifter
Just rewatched Harvest with my daughter. Not my fav, but she hadn't seen it. When Tess is looking at the dead Congresswoman's picture and then asks what she was like when she was young, I wonder if Tess was storing images of the Congresswoman for possible future mindwarps. Okay, this is basically a bump, but talking about Roswell stuff is as second nature to me as mindwarping was to Tess. But I'm going to be offline for a couple of days possibly, so it's up to the rest of the RBI. |
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Posted 06-10-2003 11:16 PM by just me
I was always wondering what she was doing looking at the picture. It looked like she was feeling sad-ish. If that's a word. I like the part where Liz and Tess are talking in the car about how good Kyle was. I wonder why Tess all of a sudden wasn't really interested in Kyle anymore. It seemed like she was really into getting her lamp trimmed. |
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Posted 06-16-2003 06:21 PM by sarah m
I am a new fan, and I am really confused about the the alien's powers, specifically the healing power. In the Pilot, Max says to Liz "We can manipulate molecular structures...That's how I healed you." I took that to mean that all the aliens have the power to manipulate molecules. In another episode, when Isabel is explaining what they can do to Alex, she uses the exact same phrase. Later, Michael heals River Dog's broken ankle in Into the Woods and Tess heals a bruise on Max's face in Ask Not. My questions are: 2) Why can't Max heal Grandma Claudia? If she had a stroke, that just a blood clot- can't he disolve it and fix the damaged cells? I never understood the argument about natural vs. unnatural. How is a stroke different than cancer in the children? 3) As the series progressed, why does Max seem to be the only one that can heal? Their powers seem very inconsistent, but maybe I'm just missing something. Help! |
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Posted 06-16-2003 09:23 PM by shapeshifter
Sarah M., I think you've got it as straight as anyone. Those inconsistancies are never addressed. Thinking about the powers some more... I guess their powers are supposed to be metaphors for their personality traits. And just like everyone gets angry at least once in a while, but some people are steamed most of the time, so does Michael actually kill people with a "blast," whereas Liz and Isabel only toss them around. So then, would Max's healing power be representative of his intellectual prowess (he manipulates molecules better than the average bear), or representative of his level of compassion for others? In the Roswell High Books, compassion is a trait that is uniquely strong in Max, whereas all the aliens are super smart. Great question sarah m! |
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Posted 06-16-2003 10:31 PM by just me
Those are good questions...all i can say is that they just got better at their designed powers. That seemed to be the best explanation, except for that the writers didn't read the other episodes and just wrote what they felt like. One thing i didn't like was that they gave Liz powers. It was just to keep Liz and Max the "special" couple in the show. They really didn't give us any real explination for it. Just that when Max healed her, something changed inside her. Could it have been her inhibitor? The one that says that you can't do something because you have come to belive that you can't. Nasedo said that they just access the part of the brain that isn't normally used. I also want to know why Liz knew that Zan was completely human because of Tess and Max's genetics? Because Zan could have easily been all alien if that was the case. Wouldn't it make more sense that he was half-and half? And how would they determine that he was human because he was just a baby! |
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Posted 06-18-2003 08:50 PM by shapeshifter
just me, and that's another good question! I think it's like the recessive blue-eyed gene or something. I am getting ready to leave town for a week, so if this thread falls off the board................................................................................. Look for the archived copy of it after I get back. |
Posted 06-18-2003 09:45 PM by Nemo
quote:It was Tess, not Liz, who brought the information that Zan was completely human. (Apparently this was determined on Antar by methods we do not know, just as we don't their technology for space travel.) Liz only added that this was possible. I think she did not imply that it was the only genetic possibility; Zan could just as easily have turned out to be completely alien, as you said. Only, as it happened, he didn't. (In other posts, more serious geneticists made the point that either of these extreme possiblities, completely human or completely alien, would be vanishingly improbable. But the story does not limit itself to plausible science....) [edited to add, I too will be away for a week. Hope you guys are still here when I get back....] [ 06-18-2003: Message edited Nemo ] |
Posted 06-19-2003 08:59 AM by sarah m
quote: I just finished reading "Quarantine" and maybe this belongs on the book thread... In the book, they explain that Liz's (and Kyle's) DNA was changed by the healing process. Something of Max's/alien DNA is now mixed with theirs. That could be an explanation of why she is developing powers. It seemed like the more the aliens used their powers, the stronger and more developed they became. It could be the same with Liz. We never got a chance to see if the same thing would happen to Kyle. But I loved his line in Graduation about "crackling and buzzing" and "being with his own kind" - it was a classic |
Posted 06-19-2003 01:16 PM by Abducted Bookworm
quote: From a while ago, but anyway, thanks. I can see I shall have to rewatch! Not that Lonnie isn't reason enough... and MTD is one of my favorite eps.
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Posted 06-20-2003 07:42 AM by Nemo
A small side-note: my wife and son just got my Jetta repainted. Now the red is really bright. Maybe I can post a picture later (when the bumpers and trim are reinstalled). |
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Posted 06-21-2003 12:21 PM by shapeshifter
posting from Toronto where I met Black Widow. More later. |
Posted 06-25-2003 04:31 PM by sarah m
quote: Are you at the Toronto Trek? |
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Posted 06-25-2003 04:35 PM by just me
Okay. this is my question that's always been bugging me: Nikolas was with the other skins when Tess blew them all up, but he was also there in NYC when Max and Tess went there. What happened?? |
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Posted 06-26-2003 09:00 PM by shapeshifter
sarah m, I wish! The best part of my trip was meeting Black Widow (Ros 2 mod) and talking Roswell. That was my first evening in that beautiful city. Then I attended a Librarians conference, and finally visited with family. Definitely attending Toronto Trek would have been better. just me, this bit of dialogue at the end of Harvest hints that Nicholas has 'other cards up his sleeve'
NICHOLAS: Destroyed. GREER: Well, that's the end of it, then. We're all as good as dead. NICHOLAS: We may be as good as dead, but this is not the end. |
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Posted 06-27-2003 07:17 PM by just me
Hmmm...i always thought that he was hinting to the fact that they would at least go out with a bang... they did...or that they would find the granolith and get home before their skins died. But it is possible that he escaped the blast somehow. I remember the kid that passed them (Max and Tess) in the park when they were walking...it looked like they thought it was him.
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Posted 06-28-2003 10:25 PM by just me
I have another quest: Why did they not wait for Tess in the podchamber? I mean they abandoned her and they also abandoned her when she came. They were always doing the alien thing without her (like attempting to kill Brody). Well i thought that Nasedo maybe rigged her pod to hold her for a little longer or something...what do y'all think? |
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Posted 06-29-2003 03:16 PM by shapeshifter
just me, The memory of seeing her in the pod chamber was always a little suspect in my mind, since Max "remembers" it with Tess's help in the desert. Michael shows up at dawn with Isabel and even asks Tess, "What did you do to him?!?!" Later she seems to be part of the group, but then the writers make her into the EMHB. So, that leaves the memory as suspect. Plus, there was a lot of discussion after MITC about why we only see 3 pods onscreen in the subway/sewers. This could all tie into the "Switched Pod" theory, in which Tess and Ava were switched. Of course, we clearly see 4 pods in the Roswell podchamber... But, basically, I would say that Tess is your basic tragic figure, similar to Judas in that she was part of the original chosen ones, but then turned against the King and then baragained with the enemy. |
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Posted 06-30-2003 05:09 PM by just me
Well it's always convienent to blame something on a mindwarp!! All the Tess haters do that. I'm not mad but it seems like anything that wasn't in favor of the 'good' charachters was a mindwarp. I'm kind of a believer in the 'switched pod' theory, though. I think Ava seemed nicer than Tess and Nasedo could have hated that. He might have changed her in because the other Ava was a whiner And also that she didn't have powers like the Dupes did...did they ever show her use powers? Okay here are a couple things i thought of today: --It's strange that Liz says that Max and the podsquad are responsible for Alex's death when she herself actually sort of is. If she'd told Max about FM then he and the other 2 might have made a concious effort to include Tess in the whole thing. Because if he knew Tess leaving would lead them to their death, then they would want to prevent it. [ 06-30-2003: Message edited just me ] |
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Posted 07-02-2003 05:49 PM by shapeshifter
Great points, just me! quote:I have to blame the writers for giving the audience the idea. Sometimes it was just because they left things unclear as to whether or not it was a mindwarp, because they weren't sure where the plot was going (like when Tess took Max into the desert in 4 Square). But the whole Alex-was-mindwarped-to-death really put the whole thing over the top. But Roswell always was campy, right from the beginning. And, in a way, having him mind-warped to death is sort of a metaphor for what happened to the fans. The writers were also waffling on whether or not Tess was good or evil. That would have been okay, but frequently she came off as too much one or the other, leaving the audience ready to doubt anything about her. Again, in the end of Season 3, when she returns, Max's befuddlement as to whether she's telling the truth is a metaphor for the audience's similar confusion.
quote:Me too. I'm "kind of" a believer in that idea. I bet if the show had continued, Jason Katims would have gone there if for no other reason than that it was a popular theory with the fans.
quote:Great point to discuss. Anyone???? Helloooo, I'm here, and I have a chair too.
quote:In the book, A New Beginning, the author obviously interprets what Liz said that same way. I never did. I always thought she meant that the reason Max wasn't willing to consider that Alex might have been murdered by aliens was because then, as an alien, he would feel responsible. When Shiri delivered that line, she was shouting. But, given the context, that was realistic. Unfortunately, it makes it seem like she is not at all sympathetic towards Max's psychic dilemma, when really, just by stating those words, she shows that she is willing to excuse his obtuseness. |
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Posted 07-02-2003 07:55 PM by just me
shapeshifter, it's neat how you make the parts of the show metaphors for the veiwers' emotions. I like that
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Posted 07-02-2003 08:26 PM by shapeshifter
jm, I like your ideas of the Dupes not being the defective ones (that's what you meant, right?). Even though Nicholas replies to Rath to the contrary in MITC,...
NICHOLAS: Ha. Uh, gee...they were carefully hidden away in Roswell and got custody of the granilith. You were dumped in the sewer. Figure that out.
[ 07-02-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 07-03-2003 12:35 AM by Algieba
just me and shapeshifter. I'm really enjoying your discussion so I'm going to jump in with some of my own thoughts. I was confused about Tess's motives because I missed most of season one when I first began watching Roswell. After I saw the episode with Tess and Nasedo's discussion in the pod chamber from S1, I was no longer confused, just angry because I thought the writers, not Tess deceived us. Tess clearly reveals her desire to be with the ones she considers her family, Max, Isabel and Michael. She also shows she had no knowledge that Nasedo had killed anyone. When you have a scene in a show where the supposed conspirators are alone discussing what they want, don't want, like, don't like, it would be ridiculous to assume they would lie for the camera. If Tess and Nasedo were plotting to deceive the others, there would have been some conversation to that effect. If Tess had mindwarped them into seeing her in the fourth pod, if there was a plan to turn them all over to Kivar, if Tess's desire to be with her long lost family was a lie, wouldn't that have come up somewhere in their discussion? The opposite is what occured. Tess sided with her "family" and angrily accused Nasedo of keeping the killing of humans a secret from her. If she and Nasedo had their own plans to turn the Royal Three over to Kivar for execution, why would she have any qualms about Nasedo killing humans? If it was a mindwarp, meant to deceive them into trusting Tess as one of their own, wouldn't Nasedo have been applauding Tess's acting skills instead of being angry with Tess for bringing them to the pod chamber? When was Nasedo supposed to have told Tess about the deal with Kivar since it is obvious from this scene she doesn't know anything about it yet? Nasedo was killed early in season 2 so it would have to have been over the summer or right after school starts back. How did Nasedo get Tess to listen to his scheme when she still thought she had a chance with the others at that point. We see at the beginning of S2 Tess helping Michael learn to strengthen his powers. It's Isabel that Tess turns to for help when she is captured by Congresswoman Whitaker. Tess uses her mindwarp to help fix Pierce's bones so Michael won't go to jail. After Nasedo is killed, Tess still turns to the others for comfort. The others still don't accept her completely and by EOTW, she's ready to leave Roswell and give up on being with her fellow Antarians. If she was so skilled with the mindwarping, why leave? I can think of numerous ways she could have tricked them all into doing what she wanted with that one skill of mindwarping. Tess's actions did not convince me she was trying to get off the planet with whatever ruthless methods she could come up with. Why save Maria from the Skins in Wipeout? With Maria dead, Michael would be much more likely to leave the planet. Why did she make the statement in Departure "they're not my enemies" after she'd wiped out Kivar's allies, the Skins, and advised Max not to trust Nicholas at the summit? If Kivar was not her enemy, then Kivar's followers should have been her allies also. Roswell, to me, was a good hiding place. Small town America populace, low crime rate, tourism based on UFO theme where the locals poked fun at anyone who actually took it seriously. It wouldn't look suspicious if any of them showed an interest in alien related topics, just acting like many others who made a living off the theme. Also it was near the crash site, so their protectors could stash the Granilith nearby for when it was needed. It's a good point that the Dupe's powers were much stronger than the Roswell gang. Maybe since they had to use them just to survive and had been using them a lot longer, the Dupes were more advanced. Michael, Max and Isabel tried not to use their powers and only seemed to get stronger as they used them more. When Liz made her angry accusation to Max about Alex's death, I thought it was partly her grief talking but I also felt she didn't mean any of them personally did anything to Alex. She specifically stated Kivar might be in on it. She made it clear in Departure when Max comes to her and says, "We're responsible" that she never meant she thought he or Michael or Isabel did it. I'm not sure if she suspected Tess when she asked her about her mindwarping capabilities. I thought at the time she was asking her about it because she wanted to know what Kivar or someone like him was capable of doing with those powers. [ 07-03-2003: Message edited Algieba ] |
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Posted 07-03-2003 02:00 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Algieba, you put very clearly the inconsistency in how Tess is portrayed - and I agree completely. Plus you have to add in the inconsistency in her abilities. I did not at all understand EOTW-CYN. Liz's drive to find who murdered Alex made sense. They were all in danger with a murderer out there - finding who it was had to be their top priority. Clearly, however, she cared about Alex, and I cannot accept that she would be content to continue lying to Isabel, Max and the others about EOTW when they could at least try to save Alex - and the world. Nor does it make sense to me that they focused the post-CYN plotline so much on Liz, Maria and Michael. I also was very disturbed by the way Isabel forgave Max for blackmailing her. Max lied to her about when he found out Tess was pregnant - an insufficient excuse anyway - and then that was never followed up upon. There was no follow-through on Isabel's declaration in "Surprise." Even next season Isabel only rebelled in extremely self-destructive ways. Season 2 was episode after episode which were individually interesting and exciting, but added up to an enormous black hole of discontinuity.
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Posted 07-03-2003 05:49 PM by shapeshifter
Okay, I'm putting on my Roswell Apologist's hat: Notice that I look rather silly in it. And I have to first say that I agree that the writers were all over the map with Tess's character. Nevertheless, here's the RA's reply.
quote:Yes. True. And if this were a book instead of a tv show, the author could have told us her thoughts throughout the rest of the series. But we don't have that. So, I am assuming that Tess is a conflicted teen. Part of her wants to be with her new Earth family, part of her wants to return to Antar as an important royal personage among her own kind, as she has been coached to do. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:Again, the teen factor. She is asserting her independence and thinking for herself. A plot for her to get pregnant with the royal heir and return victoriously to Antar would require some human feminine wiles, which Tess might have correctly surmised that Nasedo didn't quite grasp. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ quote:Good point. This suggests that Nasedo was not totally up front with Tess, and that is not surprising. We learn from Langely in S3 that the shapeshifter/protectors were programmed to protect and serve the royals, but not to love them. Nasedo's and Langely's lives both seem to demonstrate a strong desire to thwart their own Antarian destinies. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:All of these actions could be representative of her desire to seize the warm fuzzy bird in the hand of her Earthly companions, rather than hope for an unlikely reunion on Antar. She vascilates between reaching for each of the two outcomes as one seems more attainable than the other. And Michael is a wild card. There was the whole, so-called Michael Worshippers faction. His survival or lack thereof could be key to either of Tess's choices. And, as we saw in S3, Michael's own value and character hinged in part on Max's survival. So, his usefulness to Tess varied according to which track she was on, and which political faction survived. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:ITA. The mindwarp gimmick was just that: a plot gimmick. It could have been more than that if there were boundaries for its use. But even when those were given, they were inconsistantly used. Granted, the "only for a little while" aspect of mindwarping could have been extended through practice. If I did more exercises in the morning,...well...let's just say that Tess definitely exercised her mindwarping more than I do my muscles. But the finger tapping thing was thrown at us way too late. Used earlier, even if only revealed to the audience, it could have determined when she was mindwarping versus helping with recovered memories. But the finger tapping was so cheesey anyway. Let's just remember that the show always was partly campy. Watch a rerun of Get Smart sometime to appreciate that genre. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:Yes, but I see it a little differently (I think?) than that. I see the actor, EdR, disheartened with a role that makes not only her fake character, but also her real self the target of such hatred. I don't have any inside info as to the truth of this, but I can guess that she didn't want to be hated anymore. But still, they could have paired her with Kyle--or even a new alien--and had the group embrace her, so maybe my theory is wrong. I did read somewhere that she was homesick for the land Down Under. |
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Posted 07-03-2003 11:43 PM by just me
Hey nice to see you Algeiba and Brian. And of course it's always nice to see you shapeshifter The points Algeiba made were very good. I've wondered about the part where Tess and Nasedo are talking alone. They are alone so they don't have to pretend. It also gives more to the fact that she would have been happy with just being part of the group and that she didn't just want into Max's pants (but who wouldn't ) I want to know why Alex was never shown leaving, or that Liz and Maria never wrote to him or talked to him that we knew of until after he came back. For them being his best friends, they didn't seem to care all that much. And if she could've mindwarped Liz then, why couldn't she have made her think that she didn't love Max or somthing...
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Posted 07-04-2003 01:24 PM by The Real Momo
Hi, I'm just going to deviate a little from previous thoughts so I don't loose this one. My apologies. However, I just got back from a whirlwind tour of half the country (most spent in a car) and I need to catch up on everybody's thoughts. In the meantime, I just finished reading the blue script of "Max and the City" and discovered some more detailed info about Ava knowing about Liz's "change". Thought I'd post my initial fogged thoughts plus the scripted dialogue that was cut and modified. ____________________________________________ One of the most unfulfilled moments in Roswell had to be what Ava didn't say. Well, here's what Ava really had to say about Liz's change. And yes, Liz did ask about her change. The blue version of the script, dated 10/2/00, features a more detailed farewell scene between Liz and Ava: INT. CRASHDOWN CAFE - BACK ROOM - DAY Ava is zipping up a backpack while Liz looks on. LIZ: Thank you. For.... everything. AVA: No big deal. LIZ: It is to me. Ava hesitates, almost doesn't tell her, figures she owes it to her. AVA: Our protector... said that if we were to use our powers on a human... of we brought them across the line between life and death... it would change them forever. Liz takes that in for a minute. LIZ: Good-bye, Ava. Good luck. AVA: Right. Liz goes and gives her a hug. Ava hugs her back after a beat, then steps back and tries to brush off the sentiment. AVA: So... cornball. Then she EXITS. Liz goes up the stairs. COMMENTARY: Finally, here is some confirmation that Liz's change is due to solely to the healing. By this definition, it means that Kyle and Sheriff Valenti will also go through "a change." However, it also leaves an unanswered question: Who was the Dupes protector? Ava confirms that they did have a protector and that he was not an "absentee" protector. He provided the Dupes with essential information. We know Langley was in Hollywood pursuing a movie career and that Nasedo was trolling the southwest knocking off Special Unit Directors and poor unsuspecting Sheila Harding. Would Nasedo have had time to also protect the Dupes? From Tess we know that Nasedo and she were together for 10 years on the lam, moving from location to location. And when Nasedo finds Michael, Max, and Isabel, he tells Tess that he has "four of you to protect" ... not eight, but four. So are we back to a third protector? This protector "taught" the Dupes. They knew their origins, the history of their planet, the consequence of using some of their powers... unlike the Royal Three who learned by trial and error. Only Tess had any lengthy and formal instruction with Nasedo. We know that Langley had been watching them. We know that Nasedo had taken photographs of them early on (or someone else?). Two known protectors for the Royal Four and one unidentified protector for the Dupes. So what are we looking at and just who [ 07-04-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
Posted 07-04-2003 04:48 PM by Dreamergurl77
quote: Thats very interesting about what you said about the cut scene. But I might have to say that I dont agree about kyle or Sheriff Valenti being changed. It sounds so complicated that if Max healed averyone that they would all end up with powers. That would make things very difficult for the podsquad if someone new about that epecially all the kids max healed in the christmas epsiode. I mean it would work well in fanfiction and all but in the tv series way to complicated to keep track. Also I dont know if you forgot about a scene in that epsiode where Ava tells Liz about her change. I am guessing that this could be true or not but I read it in there and I had to know what you all think about this. There in that cut scene Ava tells Liz about a prophecy that their portector told them. It goes something like this "A ONCE FALLEN KING SHALL RISE AND BRING BACK HIS BRIDE BACK TO LIFE." I am not sure if this makes any sence but it sounds really important about how Ava said that Zan was always waiting for soemone else ect... So what do you all think about this I would love to hear all yours thoughts. |
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Posted 07-04-2003 05:03 PM by just me
Thank you Momo for that bit of info! It's nice to know that the healing is what really caused it...'cept that would mean everyone Max ever brought back would have powers...Liz, Kyle, Valenti, the kids(or were they close enough to death for it to work). I'm not sure what couldv'e happened to the Dupes' protector(s)...since the Roswell Four had 2 (Nasedo and Langley) then it makes sense for the NY Podsquad to have 2...Maybe the NY Four killed them after they taught them all that they knew. I wouldn't put it past them. I'm for the 1st explanation. Rath has a temper
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Posted 07-04-2003 05:14 PM by just me
Dreamergurl77 well alot of Dreamers want to think that Liz was special and that she and Max had such a big connection that only she was changed. But it said in ChChChChanges that Kyle assumed he was going to change as well. The writers put it in there on purpose. As for the kids...read above post. I like that quote tho...if it was real it would explain how Max's mind would be confused and think that Liz is the one that he was supposed to be with and why they had a hard time believing Tess and him were ment to be. If someone can find out where that came from i'd be interested. As for Zan looking for someone... ...c'mon him looking for Liz is a little bit of a stretch...don'tca think? I would like to think that it goes with the switch idea...where Ava and Tess were changed. That would mean that the Zans were looking for the Avas. Max found Liz and thought it was Ava but Zan never found Tess (or did he? ) |
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Posted 07-04-2003 06:25 PM by The Real Momo
As far as the "change" goes, I think each person experiences a different form of change. I don't necessarily think all the people Max heals will get powers. Kyle does say he feels "different", but Kyle has been evolving "spiritually" and I think this is his "change". As for the kids, they were terminally ill, but not necessarily "at death's door" in the same manner as Kyle, Valenti, and Liz. So it's possible they may not change. I don't think everyone Max heals changes. Neither Kyle nor Valenti experienced the flashes Liz & Max did during the healing. So their "change" may be different than Liz's. I do think there is more to Max's attraction to Liz and I believe that Zan probably had did have someone "to find". I don't know if there was a prophecy in an earlier script or not, but the blue version is pretty early. There could be something in the shooting script, but I haven't seen that so I can't comment. |
Posted 07-04-2003 06:53 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Thats' really interesting jm. I always thought Zan was looking for a Dupe Liz. But now you've got me wondering if he was looking for Liz or Tess. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:Dreamergurl77, I thought that sounded more like fanfiction, but it does appear at the bottom of the MITC cut scene that I added to the archives, which I copied from the breatheagain.net site. Momo, do you have the blue sheet for that script? Does it have that line? [ 07-04-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Posted 07-04-2003 08:10 PM by Dreamergurl77
quote:
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Posted 07-04-2003 08:19 PM by shapeshifter
Dreamergurl77, As a Librarian, I was just very embarrassed to discover that I had not given citations for the cut scenes on the Archives site. Some are from Momo, and those are legitimate. The others are from the breathagain.net site, which is often not available. I will go through and note which are which as soon as I have a bit of time. |
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Posted 07-05-2003 07:05 PM by just me
My friend (the Tess hater ) said for me to look at the whole show w/o my Tess-loving glasses on...but everyone gives her such a hard time that it's hard not to come to her defense. Like in "A New Beginning"--a book from the show...the writer puts Max's thoughts: quote: Excuse me but Tess had done so many selfless things like mindwarp whenever Max said so, killed the Skins and made the Valenti's Christmas one of the best ever!
Oh and why did Liz write in her journal: quote:when durring the entry she had said she and Max did tie the knot...? |
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Posted 07-06-2003 04:06 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Liz could have married without changing her name. But what really got me is that this was their version of a happy ending. Liz was happy, therefore ending happy. Bad, bad, bad logic.
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Posted 07-07-2003 02:48 PM by Stargazer_md
Kyle and Isabel? Naw, If they kept the show running, when they bring it back, they will bring Alex back. <please, please, please> [ 07-07-2003: Message edited Stargazer_md ] |
Posted 07-07-2003 03:59 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Well, that book had some continuity issues vis a vis the show (see the book thread). But, here goes the ol' Roswell Apologist hat again--although it really is probably too warm for it I think a case could be made for all of those good deeds of Tess's having ulterior motives. Anything that preserved Max & his sperm bank would have figured into the get-pregnant-and-return-to-Antar plot. And the Christmas thing could have been a means of preserving her base of operations so she could be in the same town with Max. I don't really think that all these evil motives existed when those scripts were written. Rather they are the Apologist's excuse for how things were and what they became. One more possibility: Just because Max in the book thinks that about Tess does not necessarily make it so. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ New Topic: More importantly, there's the connection that forms between Elliott and E.T. Also, along the same line, in WR Tess says she would "feel" it if Max died. But it is Liz who "feels" him die in Chant Down Babylon. I think Tess was brainwashed by Nasedo and a little too programmed (which could point back to the switched pod theory). |
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Posted 07-07-2003 07:10 PM by just me
shapeshifter...that's what my friend says too. She said that Tess was only pretending to be nice in order to get what she wanted. I'm on the fence, because yes you can see when they get closer to the end of S2 she seems a bit srained on the 'nice'. But i still think she would have disobeyed Nasedo's plan if the other three were nicer to her. And i asked what a Roswell Apologist's hat was before but it wasn't answered The duck thing was cute...it would be so sweet if that's what happened But yeah ET and Elliot were connected and Liz and Max were as well...tho i don't see Liz getting drunk off of Max's one sip And i don't think Elliot and ET would make out...
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Posted 07-07-2003 07:48 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Actually, I think you've hit the nail right on the head. That was probably the whole point to having Tess morph into the EMHB. Kind of like Carrie (which I've only read about--never seen). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:Nemo had a good definition, but I can't find it right now, and I am really bad at defining things. But, being a librarian, here's some stuff I found on the web:
2. (from m-w.com): "systematic argumentative discourse in defense (as of a doctrine)" But when I take it off, I'm rather ruthless. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ About the cone thingy. I think it was just a plot device to get the bad guys to chase the good guys. Too bad, because they could have had Michael "recognize" and "know" it as some communicator or something important. Instead, I can't look at it without wondering if it's part of a washing machine or an air bed pump. [ 07-07-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 07-07-2003 09:58 PM by Nemo
A little more about the cone (that Michael picked up in Crash): supposedly the writers planned to use it again in a later episode; but when the sponsors shortened the final season, that episode was among those that got cut (along with shortening the finale from two hours to one). According to an account I read (can't remember where), there was going to be a time-travel episode revisiting the event of the shooting in the Crashdown Cafe in the Pilot. If I remember right, the disruption of time was supposed to be an accidental result of Maria's placing the alien cone too close to a microwave oven. [ 07-07-2003: Message edited Nemo ] |
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Posted 07-08-2003 09:19 AM by just me
Wow thanks Nemo...i like shapeshifter thought it could probably only be like a peice of junk...a back massager maybe |
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Posted 07-10-2003 10:11 PM by shapeshifter
Nemo, That would've been a great story line, very Season One-ish. I'm going to be away for a week, but I get to take a laptop, so if I have any spare energy, I'll check in. |
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Posted 07-13-2003 03:11 PM by greenglow
Nemo: about the alien cone -- if the idea was to use it later as a time-travel device, I think it would be yet another source of inconsistencies - after all, this spaceship Tess used to return to Earth was obtained from Kivar and if they had technology capable of time-travel, why wouldn't he use it to go back to 1947 and destroy the pod-squad... in the pods??? Momo: it's interesting that line about the prophecy, but, without wearing that RA hat, I have to say I think the script is better without it. After all, Season 2 main idea, before 'Heart of Mine' is the tension between destiny and choice, how it affects the characters, and that Max believes that "we make our own destiny". If Liz was mentioned in some kind of prophecy, she would become part of destiny and not of choice. And Max, as a character, wants to choose, choose his own destiny. Algieba: I think you are completely right about the faults and inconsistency in the development of Tess as a character. It doesn't make sense in the global context destiny vs choice. In that context, Tess is portrayed has devided, because she was conditioned by Nasedo to follow destiny but her human side also wants to choose. Until 'Heart of Mine' we see Tess beginning to leave the 'dark side'. She bonds with the Valentis. We see Kyle falling for her. We see how she teases Kyle. Her character is beginnig to develop its human side. The logic outcome would be to give up on Max (and destiny) and choose Kyle. But then, in 'Heart of Mine' the plot takes a very unrealistic twist, and, out of the blue, Kyle assumes her as 'a sister', paving the way for CYN, where Tess is turned into a psycho-killer, in a way that really doesn't make any sense. IMHO, CYN is the beginning of a completely different plot line, inconsistent with the previous one! [ 07-13-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
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Posted 07-13-2003 06:38 PM by just me
greenglow, those are good points about the time-travel and the Liz prophecy
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Posted 07-13-2003 10:06 PM by shapeshifter
Good points Green glow & just me. I'm still away at a Librarians' conference, but last night we got to see the all-time great librarian flick: Party Girl. I hadn't ever seen it before. It was made in the mid 1990s starring Parker Posey. Anyway, there's a scene towards the end in which the heroine's friends throw her a surprise birthday party. Earlier she had been busted at a party she had given, so, as a joke, her friends have a male stripper dressed as a cop come and pretend to arrest her at the surprise party. Then the "cop" goes into the strip routine, totally like Alex in Surprise. There's even a godmother of the heroine present, who the stripper was not expecting to be there. Sound familiar? |
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Posted 07-14-2003 04:46 PM by greenglow
Thanks, Just me Shapeshifter: I'm far from being an expert or anything Are you enjoying the convention? |
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Posted 07-14-2003 08:36 PM by just me
Yeah i think alot of times it's a cop. You guys see that comercial where the subtitles read 'real somethings' and it's at a stagette party and in the end she opens the door and rips the shirt off the cop and the subtitle says: 'real cop'...it's soooo funny!! shapeshifter, i hope your having fun! That movie sounds funny. I've seen the cover so many times but never rented it.
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Posted 07-15-2003 11:16 AM by shapeshifter
jm, I didn't have a tv during the 90210 years, but maybe they did decide to name him after that lawyer. I have speculated that his name might be more symbolic, since Jessie could be short for Jesus, which is a popular name in Mexico (which would be the country of origin for Jessie's ancestors, though not Adam Rodriguez'). Jesse is a sort of Christ-like figure in the show: He's innocent, he's wrongfully imprisioned and questioned, he provides a vehicle of escape, he is willing to sacrifice himself, etc. |
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Posted 07-15-2003 02:55 PM by greenglow
Wow, Shapeshifter, I'm impressed... I always thought Jesse was just someane to fill-in for the blank left by Alex [Just edited to put this little warning: I believe the following is sooo of-topic!] On 90210 I really can't say because I never really liked the show... yeah, watched it sometimes when bored and without something else to do but even that stoped by their season 2 or something. The only thing I can see in common with Roswell is maybe that in 90210 everything in the world happened to the same group of characters and the characters had strange behaviour and personality changes... that can relate with all the bad stuff the producers and writers putted in S2 and S3??? LOL! [ 07-15-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
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Posted 07-16-2003 06:33 PM by just me
greenglow i think that's what happens in a lot of shows. They try to keep things fresh, but end up making thing just...bad. And oh yeah i really like that line (your signature) I also thought that "swimfan" was like Roswell. The stunning blonde and the steady girlfreind...but Tess was never that psycho and Max was never that much of an a$$...and Liz was never that cool(lol). shapeshifter thanks for the Jessie/Jesus info. I didn't know that |
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Posted 07-17-2003 03:24 PM by greenglow
Swimfan... that movie is not in theaters here, yet. I have to go see it when/if it opens here. At least it has Shiri |
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Posted 07-17-2003 08:14 PM by just me
So any ideas on why the kids weren't given physicals when they were adopted? I mean...strange kids wandering around in the desert...never once had to be tested for anything? I find that really unlikely |
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Posted 07-18-2003 04:49 PM by shapeshifter
just me, It was brought up in the Sci Fi of BB rerun thread. Just do an "Edit/Find in Page" for the word "adopt." BTW, I have uploaded an archive of the SciFi BB discussions focused on EOTW headed by Skovde (thanks to Skovde for sending me the text). The link is in the newest posting in my RosBlog. |
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Posted 07-18-2003 10:21 PM by just me
Thanks for that link. It really didn't answer the question (I guess no one knows) but it was very facinating |
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Posted 07-19-2003 06:57 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hi just me! Just being in a desert doesn't mean you get a disease. Karst answered your question in a reply to Marym on 06-27-2000 06:48 AM. Karst replied to Marym: Max and Isabel were healthy, so blood tests would be unnecessary. In the two states that I lived during 1989, physical exams of children did not involve blood tests, unless the doctors felt there was a problem that needed more information. Healthy children with no illness or injury were not given blood tests. In more recent years, physical exams for extracurricular high school sports have included blood tests. However, none of the aliens were in after school sports. Hope that helps! [ 07-19-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 07-21-2003 08:38 PM by shapeshifter
C&V, you give the greatest answers! I've been thinking about the symbolism of Max as a type of Christ. According to the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus sent the 12 disciples out to travel around and heal people. Because Max seems to give people special powers when he heals them, I'm wondering if there are 12 people he healed in the course of the 3 seasons. There's Liz, 2 Valentis, how many kids in the cancer ward?, Michael, Brody, Clayton (sort of the Judas symbol), any more? Sorry if this seems like a symbolic stretch. |
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Posted 07-24-2003 03:17 PM by greenglow
Shapeshifter: I really can't picture Max has a Christ figure. I don't think it fits that symbolic role. If I had to find a mytical reference for its character I would probably say... Hamlet! Ok, Hamlet is not exactly "mytical", but its symbolic and Max character is always strugling with the dilemma of assuming the role the others expect him to assume or the role he desires for himself. |
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Posted 07-24-2003 09:47 PM by shapeshifter
greenglow, thanks for responding. I was out of town again. But I think the role issue still fits for Max as a "type of Christ" in that the people of Jesus' day wanted him to be a leader in a military overthrow of the Romans, whereas he wanted to overthrow spiritual hypocrits. Ironically, Constantine. ruler of the Roman Empire, converted to at least a form of Christianity, and today Rome is Christian. Of course, Max's sexuality would not fit with the Jesus comparison; I am just thinking of the leadership, healing, and pacifist aspects of the character of Max. Edited to change "Charlemagne" to "Constantine" as per Algieba's comment below. I knew it was some "C" person! [ 07-25-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 07-25-2003 05:53 AM by Algieba
shapeshifter. I think you are getting Charlemagne mixed up with someone else. Charlemagne ruled the Frankish Empire which covered a part of the old Roman Empire in Europe during the Middle Ages. The Roman Empire had ended but the Roman ruler you are thinking of who converted to Christianity and then declared Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire was Constantine. My memory fails me though in regard to someone who reminds me of Max and his dilemma of choosing between Liz and Antar. I can't remember the exact year this occurred or the full names of those involved but if I had to pick a figure from history to represent Max, I would choose Edward of England who in the 20th century chose his love for a woman over his right to the throne. Maybe someone on this thread can remember more details. He was next in line of succession but he was in love with a divorced woman. No English king was allowed to be married to a divorced woman so Edward had to choose between the woman he loved or the crown. It was a big scandal at the time but Edward refused to give up the love of his life and walked away from all the power and pomp that being the king of England would have given him. He was roundly criticized for putting love before duty but he married the woman anyway and was very happy with her. England continued on with whoever was next in line. We'll never know if history would have been greatly different if Edward had been king. It's hard to say if Antar would be better off with Max as king? He seems to make a lot of mistakes and has had very little practical experience in fighting a war or ruling a people. He would certainly be better than Kivar but I wonder who besides the Royal Four has a right to the throne. Couldn't there be a cousin waiting in the wings who could step in? Seems rather shortsighted on the part of the Antarians to narrow their hopes to the Royal Four only. |
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Posted 07-25-2003 01:14 PM by shapeshifter
Algieba, Thanks for the correction! I knew I was getting something wrong there. Good point about Max not being the most likely to get reelected on Antar. But judging by the summit personnas, I don't think that star system's folks are very good judges of character. Maybe there was supposed to be some human influence that would temper the Antarian weaknesses? Maybe the podsters were supposed to mate with humans to improve the gene pool for better survival (read my lips: not so war-like). Remember Michael's comment about finding out about themselves by getting close to humans? And Langely made it sound like 'mating with another hybrid' was not something that was supposed to happen. It seems Nasedo duped (no pun intended) Tess into pursuing the mating ritual with Max. |
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Posted 07-25-2003 03:35 PM by greenglow
Algieba: this is probably kind of off-topic, but that english king was not simply a matter of heart... that story was a cover-up for the real reason: he had a sympathy for the Nazis, wanted England to make an alliance with Hitler's 3rd reich and had to give up the throne because of that. The parliament would never accept that. [edited: misspelled somethings, sorry] [ 07-26-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
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Posted 07-25-2003 05:13 PM by Algieba
greenglow. Thanks for the info but ye gads, I've been believing that love over duty story all my life. How sad. I thought the romance was real. I don't think it's off topic because I think Max is making the same kind of choice. Love or duty. Even if it is a cover story in the case of England, the comparison is still there. shapeshifter. The question of two hybrids mating is very confusing. I've read other viewpoints on the scene between Max and Langley but I can only see it as Langley affirming the Destiny book's drawings that paired Max and Tess. When Langley immediately assumes that Max has mated with a hybrid because Max states he has a son, it seems to me that validates the view that only two hybrids mating will produce offspring. Otherwise why didn't Langley ask Max if he mated with another hybrid or a human? He doesn't do that. He makes a very clear statement with no hint of a question in his voice. When you said that Langley made it sound as though it was something that was not suppose to happen, are you going by the way he said it, the tone of voice, or maybe the look on his face? I've heard other people say this but I just don't see it. Langley seemed disgusted about everything to do with Max. Langley's comment sounds like a simple statement of fact to me. I'm trying not to be biased because I like both the romance of Max and Liz and the romance of Max and Tess. Either pairing had potential for a great romance. Btw, your archives are a terrific resource. I don't know if I'll ever get through them all. Must have taken a lot of work to put that together. I just watched Destiny again and now I have a question about why Max saw no flashes of Kyle's life when he healed him. I slowed down the tape to see if I was missing something. What appears where there is normally a scene from the person's life is a totally blank white screen. There are bright white flashes, pictures of Max doing the healing, pictures of Kyle as he lies on the floor, but absolutely nothing in the way of pictures from Kyle's past. I find that very wierd. Kyle stated to Liz in EOTW that he saw no flashes when Max healed him. Every other time Max healed someone, whether it was Liz, the children in the hospital, or Brody, he saw detailed pictures of their past. Why was Kyle's past a blank white screen? Was that just an oversight or was Kyle going to turn out to be something other than what he appeared to be? Someone with no past? Or a hidden past? The only other healing where I can remember not seeing flashes is Jim's but it was never made clear if there were any flashes. |
Posted 07-25-2003 09:59 PM by shapeshifter
quote:That could make an interesting backstory for Roswell in which the Antarian cloners intended for the hybrids to mate with humans as a coverup for an alien take-over, but the aliens fell in love with the humans and foiled the evil plot. |
Posted 07-25-2003 10:29 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Good question. When Max first encounters Langley in the film vault, Max makes it clear he is primarily after the space ship. This was already evident to Langley in Utah. So, when Max says he has a son, it is to explain his obsession with obtaining the space ship. I (and others) thus interpreted Langley's reaction and conclusion to Max having a son (shock and disgust at having mated with a hybrid) as implying that the son of two hybrids could not survive on Earth. Of course Tess's reappearance with human baby Zan disproves this theory, but does not necessarily discredit it as Langley's belief. It is possible that the shapeshifter/protectors really believed this would be the result of hybrid mating. And this false assumption could have been planted by Kvarians, Skins, or whomever to promote some agenda. Another possible explanation for Langley's exclamation, which I am just now considering, is that the 2 hybrids would have a son, but that a human/hybrid pairing would result in a girl child. quote:Yes, both. Joe Pantolino is a good actor, and definitely portrays disgust and dismay at the revelation that Max mated with another hybrid. But perhaps this was the actor's commentary on teen pregancy brought about by the Antarian king.
quote:Yes, but I don't see that the writers ever considered Max/Tess as anything other than a plot device to cause conflict with Max and Liz. But I agree that it could have been a good tragedy.
quote:Thanks. Me neither. I just skim most of the content. But I probably did read almost all of it when it was first posted. Mostly I just do a lot of edit/replace and copy/paste to code stuff.
quote:Yes, a ridiculous amount of time over the years. But then many people spend that much time on their lawns and have nothing else to show for it in the end. quote:That's an interesting idea about Kyle having no past. But I think there was an intent to keep what happened to Liz distinct from what happened to Kyle or Valenti. Obviously that distinction was blurred by both the Christmas cancer ward healings and Kyle's assumption that he would develop powers. I think a good place to pick up the story with a movie would be Jim Valenti developing powers and seeking after his "own kind." I also thought a sequel could be done without the original cast in which young Zan develops powers after all, and perhaps meets and falls in love with the daughter of Michael & Maria. Yet another version could just follow the cancer kid survivors as they develop powers. This could be a metaphor for bioethics issues. [ 07-25-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 07-26-2003 03:23 PM by greenglow
Hello! On the Langley/Max scene: I've always taked that dialog has Langley stating that the hybrids where engineered to produce offspring the moment they mated (that is also the subtext in S2 pregnancy episodes). He is disgusted that Max failed to realize that. He is upset. Remember that Langley rejects the Antarian plans. He doesn't want to be a part of it. In that episode he advises Max to give up his alien side and choose the way of humans. |
Posted 07-26-2003 09:46 PM by Reggie
quote: [/lurk] Well, we know that there's a shapeshifter (Tic-tac) around from time to time. Since someone had to be there to remove Tess, they probably knew when the kids would "hatch". It's possible that he/she did something to "fix" any blood tests from the time after they were hatched, through the time they were finally adopted; and probably looked in (discretely) from time to time. |
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Posted 07-26-2003 09:50 PM by shapeshifter
greenglow, now that you explain it that way, it seems so obvious! Tonight episode 120 of the last season of I Dream of Jeannie was on. In it:
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Posted 07-29-2003 03:43 PM by greenglow
The green blood... guess every script writer in the history of TV has the same idea for private jokes -- "little green man/green blood - ahahahah"!? |
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Posted 07-29-2003 04:17 PM by Abducted Bookworm
The thing is that Max was only pacifistic regarding enemies... he was willing to use anything, including physical force, against his own family. Not great leadership material. That's another issue of continuity, as well.
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Posted 07-29-2003 08:29 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Good point. I was going to put on my Roswell apologist's hat and make a case for 'back stage' and 'front stage' self, like when I'm super nice to students and then yell at my kids, but you're right, either he's Max the Saint or he ain't. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ BTW, I updated my Rosblog. |
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Posted 08-02-2003 12:19 PM by shapeshifter
Back when Monsters first aired, discussions about symbolism hadn't begun on the boards. I don't think it was ever rerun (I could be wrong) until SciFi picked it up. I saw most of it on my lunch break yesterday and noticed the color wheel schedule chart Liz creates after her talk with Topolsky in which Liz emphatically states, "You've got to have a plan." IMAGE: thesmudge.com/shapeshifter/Roswell/stuff/colorwheel0.gif Notice the brightly colored NA blanket in the forground that echoes the color scheme of the chart, which is in a "medicine wheel" format. What little is visible of the Legend and markings around the wheel indicate that it is a plan for times of day and days of the week. Notice the one white blank space: IMAGE: thesmudge.com/shapeshifter/Roswell/stuff/colorwheelw.gif Also, the old lady who is seen writing in a journal at the Crashdown counter in the opening scenes of the Pilot is present at the employee meeting Liz has called to unveil her color coded scedule plan. [ 08-02-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 08-03-2003 08:52 AM by Reggie
There seems to be an asterisk in that space, and a note offside. Perhaps it's intended to be a newly hired person, not hired yet? There seem to be more employees than we've seen as "regulars". Perhaps the old woman is another one? Maybe she's the "new hire", and this is her first day; her name isn't on the schedule yet, but is in the offside note? I wonder if that prop is still in existance. Probably not. [ 08-03-2003: Message edited Reggie ] |
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Posted 08-04-2003 04:41 PM by shapeshifter
Hi Reg! Long time, no read. Do you have a better screencap of the legend for the "New Work Schedule"? I took mine from a Kazaa file that was obviously made from an EP VHS copy. I did a double take when I saw "New Work" because it was such a poor image that it looked like "New York." The old lady is truly an old lady. I didn't post the closeup, but no Botox here. She also appears in the Pilot, which would have been shot about a year earlier. I don't think we ever see her again. I wonder if she's a relative of someone on the set. But what really strikes me is the scene in the Pilot where she's writing in what looks like a journal when Liz whisks by her shortly before getting shot. Definitely a sense of time travel. [ 08-04-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Posted 08-14-2003 02:55 PM by greenglow
quote: That, or she is was part of the 'extras' cast |
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Posted 09-18-2003 03:31 PM by shapeshifter
Here's the missing posts. I hand-edited them from the print-view save, so hopefully it will look reasonable okay. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted 08-21-2003 02:24 PM by greenglow Hey, I have some input about the old lady: I watched the pilot and it seems to me that she is at the cash-register machine, so it seems she is an employee after all. Wow, I was so sure this thread had fallen off the board. Maybe an alien resurrection? Posted 09-05-2003 01:18 AM by Citrus and Vine Hi shapeshifter! Cute pictures and interesting information! Nemo, I hope you can post a picture of the new paint job on your Jetta! I'd love to see it!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted 09-05-2003 03:07 PM by greenglow Hey Shapeshifter How you doing? Feeling better? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted 09-05-2003 10:39 PM by Reggie I would have said that Mrs. Deluca was even younger than 40. I got the impression that she... ahh... started young. Didn't she have Maria when she was in her teens? Say 17; and Maria's a junior, so 16? Which would make Mrs.D about 34. (Remember to add a year for gestation!) Posted 09-06-2003 03:08 PM by greenglow
quote:Oh, these are actually very good points! It puts her birthdate around 1965, and her arrest in 1983... So much for my theory, it seems... Being born in the late 60s she could have grown up in a hippie commune and absorve the cultural ambience... I dunno! Oh, about the actress' age... I guess is not that relevant, nowadays with the right make-up work, the correct light, and carefully chosen camera shots, they can make a 16-year-old model appear to be 26 (and the other way around) so... it doesn't really matter... [edited: thanks Shapeshifter for keeping an eye on my spelling mistakes -- shame on me ] [ 09-07-2003: Message edited greenglow ] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted 09-06-2003 05:30 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Thanks for asking, greenglow, I'm still coughing as if I inhaled Gandarium, but I think I'll survive this one. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ quote:Wow, I'd never considered that. Hmmm...back in the early-mid 70's we "hippies" (though my mother always said I was a "flower child" because "hippies" were bikers) felt an affinity for Native American culture. Maybe Maria's mom hung out on the reservation--she was with a group protesting the removal of some NA artifact when Valenti arrested her. Lots of possibilities with the Reservation connection as to who Maria's dad could have been. In one of the tie-in books they make her dad out to be a generic, white-bread, reformed-loser dad, but in the alternate universe, he could have been NA or even Nasedo! [ 09-07-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted 09-07-2003 05:23 PM by Reggie
quote:Wel, yeah... we "know" (more or less - ) how old Maria is; and I thought her mother "had to" get married, young. I can't cite chapter & verse, though. And... Liz is not an ! Maria is not an ! Qfanny is... umm... from Nebraska! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted 09-07-2003 06:11 PM by The Real Momo Sorry, I haven't been around much lately, but I'll be trying to catch up to speed (yet again!). Jumping back to Tess for a moment ... Whatever one feels about Tess, love her or hate her, there is one thing we can never forget about Tess. By nature, she is duplicitious and as such, can never be trusted. That was given to us in S1, S2, and again in S3. It is the only consistency we have about her character ... outside of the fact that she is a survivalist . And as such, anything she says or does becomes suspect. To accept Tess blindly for what she is and says is a mistake. You can never take Tess at face value.
quote:I was thinking about this just yesterday. I was looking at my Roswell Clock. I love it, but it is the Season 3 picture on it without Tess. Liz is my alter ego, but Tess is probably the most talked about and important character of the television series. quote:This is addressed in the latest Roswell novel, Pursuit, in a very innovative and satisfying (scifi) way. quote:ITA except why do they have the "skin" flakes floating around when the human janitor reappears? I guess just a bit of dandruff they left behind. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm going to check the timing on that. It may still be possible. The Skins are at the end of their life cycle with no new suits (with the possible exception of Nicholas). The fairy dust may be a case of great timing with everything else going on. But if we attritribute it all to Tess, we still have the problem of Nicholas. If the Skins died a la fireball, then so does Nicholas. He has no protection and no new suit to immediately jump in. And since Nicholas is not dead there has to be another, more satisfying answer. The mindwarp is "illusion" and the answer is in science. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted 09-08-2003 02:31 PM by Citrus and Vine Regarding whether or not Skins were actually killed at the school, I think the intent of the story was to convey that the Skins, with the exception of Nicholas, were killed there. Regarding the question of whether Maria was responsible for the demise (or disappearance) of the Skins at the high school, I think blowing the green crystal was not what killed the Skins. I don’t think the Skins “disappeared into another dimension”, either. Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess were dimensionally unaffected when the crystal blew. They existed in the same dimension the Skins did, when the humans disappeared. They didn’t go to another dimension after the crystal blew, so I doubt that the Skins did either. Blowing the green crystal restored the humans to their previous dimension. Granted the Skins were different from the human hybrids, but they existed in the same dimension. Again, Nicholas at the Summit indicates to Max and Tess that the Skins were killed. Larger screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries; other screencaps are from crashdown.com
Good points on the dead-or-alive-skins and Nicholas. Good point about the mindwarp. That is one reasonable way to explain why Nicholas is not seen when the others die. The ability to mindwarp would make allow Nicholas to slip away, wounded or unscatched. I'll buy that. It plays. So, having read the last few posts, I'm guessing that the Skins were zapped into another dimension by Maria's shortcircuiting the Greenis (an interesting metaphor for her, btw--emasculating the giant enemy) and that this also boosted Tess's mindwarp. In fact, I'm thinking now that Tess's megawarp also boosted the effect of Maria's disconnecting the Greenis. We only see a relatively small amount of dandruff in the school, but I'm now thinking that most of their remains went into another "subset of time." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted 09-08-2003 10:26 PM by Reggie Gotta disagree with you, Momo, about Tess. Posted 09-09-2003 07:30 AM by Citrus and Vine Hi Reggie, Citrus - those are good points, that's the kind of stuff I was refering to when I talked about how difficult is to extract a "big picture" from S2. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted 09-10-2003 07:49 PM by shapeshifter
quote:
quote:I like Reggie's explanation because it fill a few major plotholes. But I also appreciate Citrus & Vine's points about the problems with Reggie's ideas. How about if Nicholas did mindrape Tess at some point and decided to go along with helping her in Nasedo's plan. Perhaps he really did go back to Antar--stowed away in the Granolith (although, admittedly, it didn't seem to have much room for stowaways, but it must have had some expandability like in the ship in the Metz books, or else how were all the podsters going to fit as in the original plan?) In one of the post-Seson 3 released books, Nicholas does make an Earthly appearance, but that could be chalked up to an Alternate Universe story. I've been watching I Dream of Jeannie a lot lately, and in an early Season 1 episode we learn that Genies cannot be photographed. This is reiterated in the last Season (5?) when they get married. But there is an episode in the middle in which she is photographed with an ancient, expensive piece of jewelry which sets her up as a target for a con artist. I wonder where Roswell would have gone if they hadn't made any attempt at continuity. I think video taping as a skill of the masses dictates continuity. [ 09-18-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 09-21-2003 03:52 PM by greenglow
Hi Shapeshifter! Thanks for the lost posts |
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Posted 09-22-2003 03:55 PM by Reggie
Sorry I'm late getting these comments posted. They go back to the beginning of the thread! Sonya: I love reading your posts because I get a lot of insights and thoughts that are great. It could of been Tess's plan all along to kill Liz and get her out of the way and Nascedo had to follow her orders. Shapeshifter: Tess "being Queen" couldn't give orders to Harding because he was raising her. Remember, that the NM4 were effectively infants when they hatched: none of them could be trusted with any authority. You can't give orders to your parent(s). Add to that that Tess isn't Royal, except by marriage. Was she ever called his "Queen"? She says she's his wife; everybody else refers to her as his "young bride". Max is the King, and has the Royal Seal. Michael is his second, and doesn't until Max "dies"; then Michael (not Tess or Isabel) gets it; and then it goes back to Max. Actually, I believe that Tess is called "Young Bride" because there was another wife, Max's true love. As for any of the aliens wanting Liz dead; if Liz turned up dead, with a silver handprint, Max would know who did it, and never trust Harding; certainly not enough to follow his recomendations to Antar! Arresting Max, and hauling him back to Antar in the guise of Valenti, is just stupid. If Harding wanted to "fulfill" that aledged bargain, wouldn't it have been simpler to just hand him over to Nikolas? Or to tell Max it was safe to go home after all this time, get everyone on The Granolyth, and just leave? I think Liz was just a prop, to get Pierce to follow them to the Carnival. My guess is that he wanted to kill Pierce there, and take his place then. Liz could have taken word of the change back to Max, if need be. Liz is clearly Max's ally, as is Valenti. I don't see Harding minding a little help, not to mention deferring to his King's will. Momo: The shapeshifters, and Harding in particular, as bodyguards / babysitters? Check. But they aren't robots, either. That's why Harding had to be gotten rid of, before Nikolas began his attacks on the NM4. He would have been able to fight Nikolas, not just following orders from Max { } but using his own abilities. That's his job and training; and they wouldn't have sent Barney Fife, more like Delta Force. The Skins would have been able troops, too! And we've still got Tic-tac, who is MIA. Kal is... just odd. A shapeshifter, who hasn't shapeshifted for decades? And is just recovering his senses, while Harding (who does it all the time) is very sensual? I consider Season 3 as apocraphal, anyway. As for the "Antarians" (they'll always be Twilonese to me), I think that K' var needs Max to come "home" voluntarily. It may be an extradition thing, or some spin needed for his show trial, or maybe just that the podsters need to be adults for proper prosecution. Nikolas would be happy to drag them home dead or alive, though; and I think that's why he says he wants them dead. BTW: We saw the podsters position given away by the orbs' alarm. No betrayal by "the unaccounted for baddie" needed. Citrus and Vine: Well, he sure seems like one, doesn't he? But, you're basing your argument on two points: Nikolas told Isabel he's not happy as a pre-pubescent boy, and the other Skins think he's a Skin. Isabel believed he's a Skin, and acted accordingly, but she doesn't remember Antar at all. Why would he pretend he's a boy, instead of (say) Mayor of Copper Summit? Why play a Skin, if he was a Shapeshifter? ... there are some problems with saying that Nicholas mindwarped Tess to believe Nasedo made a deal with Kivar. Nicholas didn’t know about Nasedo. Initially, he didn’t know Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess lived in Roswell, and he didn’t know Tess was raised by Nasedo. There is never any suggestion in the episodes that Tess was mindwarped by Nicholas to believe Nasedo made a deal with Kivar. He didn't know about "Nacedo" (Harding)? His soldier (CW) knew about the alien(s) from Pierce; he should have understood that this was the R4's caretaker squad and that at least one caretaker was still active. Are you saying CW didn't report in? We know a report of hers was late, from the beginning of "Harvest". We know that the podsters gave away their position at the end of S1. We also know that CW was investigating the R4, to the point that she was using Max's girlfriend to obtain information about them. Surely CW noticed Tess and her situation, especially after Liz told her. When the Dupes kidnapped Tess at the end of MitC, she was recovered in a dazed condition. It's entirely possible that the Dopes took her to Nikolas, and he decided to use her as his catspaw. Remember, Tess was incapable of doing all that she was supposed to have done; so Nikolas must have been helping. Was he playing second fiddle to her? Not likely. Nicholas wanted the location of the Granilith. If Nicholas had been mindwarping Tess, then that is what Nicholas would have been after. At the summit meeting in New York, Nicholas states it is most important that the Granilith be returned. In Copper Summit also, Nicholas asked Isabel for the location of the Granilith. The Granilith was Nicholas’ primary interest. Right, because he didn't need the location of the R4. He had them! His mission was to bring them all back; and using Tess as catspaw, he almost had all of them. I'm concidering The Granolyth (as a time machine) to be The Ultimate Weapon; once K' var had that, he could go back and kill the R4 at any time. (So to speak. ) In Roswell, after Ida knocked Isabel unconscious, she asked Nicholas what he wanted to do. Nicholas replied, “Kill every last one of 'em.” Nicholas also told Lonnie that if Max didn't take the deal at the Summit, then Kivar wanted Max dead. Lonnie tried to kill Max. With Max dead, producing a child with Tess, which was an essential part of Nasedo’s deal with Kivar, would have been impossible. Hence Nasedo’s deal with Kivar had nothing to do with Nicholas. Well, K' var had already killed the R4 once already when he overthrew them, so it's likely that he still wanted them d*e*a*d dead. It's only a question of how & when. If K' var could have them back for a show trial, great. Otherwise, get The Granolyth and leave them dead. When Lonnie (on her own) failed to kill Max, then the possibility of using Tess's purported pregnancy became available. To say that killing Max wan't part of "Nacedo's plan", therefore his plan didn't have to do with Nikolas, is circular logic. Max winds up dead either way; and I'm saying that "Nacedo's plan" was another of Nikolas's plans to get the R4 and The Granolyth to Antar, for execution. Three quick points: I disbelieve that Harding is "Nacedo". I believe that Tic-tac is Nacedo, not Harding. |
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Posted 09-23-2003 03:46 PM by greenglow
Reggie lot of theories there, I'll have to get back to them later On the Nasedo and Tic-Tac: I actually think that Tic-Tac and Nasedo are the same shapeshifter. Eating tic-tacs is a plot device putted there for the viewer to understand that all those "persons" are being impersonated by the same entity, a shapeshifter. It's part of introducing a charecter, piece by piece. When Nasedo/Harding comes to light, theres no more use for tic-tacs because now Nasedo has a recognizable "face", he is no longer in the shade. I also think that, at the same time, it is an inside joke for the viewers. Nasedo always appears misteriously from the dark, eating tic-tacs and then fades into the night... just like the "cancer man" (later known has "the cigarrete smoking man") appears from the dark, smoking cigarrettes, in "The X-Files". On Max's "commad voice" to shapeshifters: I never bought that story, its completely out of touch with Season 1. Nasedo never taked orders from Max. He is always playing by his own rules. Even when he impersonates Pierce, he does so because he agrees with Max, not because he is obeing him! Anyway, season 3 is always clueless, the writers seemed to forget all previous plot, so things can't make sense [ 09-23-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
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Posted 09-30-2003 11:24 AM by The Real Momo
originally quoted by Reggie: quote: This is a politcal mistake. A good leader listens and takes advice. That is why leaders have advisors. Maybe Max doesn't always follow advice but he usually listens. When he stops listening is when his world falls apart. A good leader must have people around him who can say no. Otherwise, the leader gets a distorted, one-sided picture of what is really happening around him. While it may feed the ego, not considering "the big picture" may blind a leader to make bad decisions with potentially damaging consequences. With Max, he has both support and advice from Liz (most notably). He listens to Liz and he sometimes takes her advice, sometimes not. In "Max in the City", he does not tell Lonnie and Rath about the Granilith because Liz tells him not to. She also gives him support when he needs it and when he deserves it. We also see it when he talked with Maria in "Ask Not." But listening and taking advice isn't all of it either. You can also get bad advice, such as Isabel's and Michael's advise to kill Brody. He initially listens to that advice and is going to take it until Maria gives him advice that makes him change his mind. So it's also a matter a reasoning to figure out what is good and bad advice. Max is "not so different from us" as Liz points out. He is going to make good and bad decisions as do all of us. But, at the base of his character, is a good heart that tries "to do good in this world" and that is all we can ask from him. And ... you can get "no" advice as with Tess. While it is admirable that she "blindly" supports Max (well, maybe not always), it feeds his ego and blinds him as well because he gets no "feedback" about what she thinks most of the time (politcally). It's rare that we see Tess giving Max any advice at all. It's not even a partnership most of the time. Max's problem as a leader comes from his inability to delegate and this stems primarily from his desire to protect those he loves AND trusts. Certainly, he is no saint and if it sounds that way, well, it's not meant to be. The issues of leadership are complex, in Max's case, more complex, because literally knows nothing about his former world. Try making decisions about something you know absolutely nothing about. You are going to make mistakes, but that is how we learn something about nothing. Max is the first one to admit he's not perfect but he's crippled by a burden he doesn't understand -- an exiled leader who doesn't even know who he was. The only info he has of "Zan" comes from his enemies or from people he trusted that betrayed him. Unfortunately, he believed them and for the most part, it's all propaganda. It's information he can't trust. Still, it mostly undermines Max's confidence which it is intended to do. For example, on one hand, he has Nicholas telling him "he made bad decisions" but Tess tells him "you must have be a great king." Which is it? While everyone thinks Nicholas was telling Max the truth, I think Tess might have been closer (unless we believe she was so blinded by love she never saw Zan's faults). But Tess again, in "Departure", says, "You were a king, now you're just a boy." That again implies Zan was a formidable power on Antar, but Nicholas and Tess, through different ways, cut into Max's confidence -- Nicholas, by telling Max he was a bad king (which maybe he wasn't) and Tess, by eroding Max's ego here by telling him (indirectly) he's no king in this life either. And the truth of the matter is, that Tess loved Zan (if even), not Max. In truth (weighing all the propaganda--yes, even with Courtney's remarks), Max probably fell somewhere in between -- probably not really bad, but not the best either. Probably died too young to know how good or bad a leader he might have been and that's why the power struggle started. A young king is a vunerable king. As Max, he is "learning" to become a great leader. He's not there yet. He hasn't the experience, but he does have some of the instinct. Still, he hasn't matured enough. What he is currently gaining are the life experiences that will ultimately shape his character. Liz, following her heart, knows it. Max, because of his lack of confidence, doesn't.
quote: As for Max being "pacifistic" about his enemies, that's not entirely true either. Remember, he went to kill Leanna and was in the process of doing just that until Liz stops him by saving Leanna. Liz's judgement stops Max from making a "bad" decision. Also keep in mind that Max has been raised human, and in spite of his denials about not believing in God, he has been raised to believe killing is wrong. He is going to be "pacifistic" in nature because that's what the Evans have taught him. If there are other options, then Max will explore those avenues first. Killing is the last option. And when the killing does come for Michael and Isabel, it's a defense, not offense. In fact, the only times I can remember when pod squad does consider killing as an "offense" , it would have been on totally unsuspecting, innocent individuals (Brody & Leanna). They would have been "dead" wrong using deadly force in these cases. So perhaps much of the worth or greatness of a leader is his ability to reach appropriate goals withoutthe use of deadly force, using reason, advice, intelligence to surmount the unsurmountable and leaving war and violence as the "last resort". Isn't this part of what makes us civilized? [ 09-30-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 09-30-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 09-30-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 09-30-2003 03:56 PM by shapeshifter
Momo, I just skimmed your post, 'cause I gotta work tonight and have other things to do before then. But ITA that Max was neither a perfect leader nor a terrible one. It seems this last post of mine was the only one that got dropped in the last crash:
quote:In Pursuit (if you consider the tv tie-in books to be canon), Ava is referred to by Rath & Lonnie as "Queenie." Possibly it was just empty, sarcastic flattery, but I didn't get that impression. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:Both Citrus & Vine and Reggie have good points. Again, one of the tv tie-in books declares Nicholas to be a Skin. But, if we take the books as an Alternate Universe, and if we go back to Liz's discovery in Control that shapeshifters have to "return to a base form," it's possible that Nicholas could be a shapeshifter whose base form is that of a 14-year-old boy, perhaps for the purpose of infiltrating the Skins as a double agent to protect the Royal 4. But the shapeshifters seem to be very rebellious (perhaps they are reconstituted from a conquered race?), and so it is easy to imagine that Nicholas is a shapeshifter gone bad, so to speak, a type of Satan or "fallen angel," if you will. And although I had assumed that the balding, middle-aged man base form was supposed to be similar to a greyling, and that it was what shapeshifters-as-humans had to work with, maybe the shapeshifters were just programmed in that form (and perhaps in a 14-year-old form) to keep them in line in a "lower class" (in human terms) form, just as they were allegedly programmed to obey the King. Harding seemed to prefer being 17-year-old Max & kissing Liz, just as he enjoyed being Pierce and "diddling" the Congresswoman. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ quote:Intriguing possibility, though the Granilith always did pose problems plot-wise. When it first arrived in Surprise, I was like: "huh? Oh, yeah, time for some campy, cheesiness; we can't let Isabel go totally dramatic--this is Roswell, the Television Show." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ greenglow, very nice, fresh observations about the shapeshifter personna. |
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Posted 10-01-2003 09:28 AM by The Real Momo
IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1503a87e0.jpg I don't think there is any question that Nicholas is a Skin. I thought that was made very clear in "Harvest" and "Wipeout". One of the incubating husks was clearly Nicholas' replacement husk as shown above. I'll try to find a better picture. More importantly, this husk does not seem to be damaged in the explosions as shown. Then, in "Wipeout", while Nicholas is looking in the mirror at the Crashdown, Ida tells Nicholas to stop scratching. Scratching is one sign that the husks are starting to shed.
If you haven't read "Nightscape" and don't want to be spoiled, don't read this next bit. I've just read "Nightscape" and it doesn't change my mind about Nicholas. What happens to Nicholas seems to be similar to what happened to Courtney as her replacement husk fails. In "Harvest", we are shown a closeup of Nicholas' replacement husk. My feeling is that Nicholas was able to save his husk much in the same way that Michael saved Courtney's. However, for the same reasons, this is why the husk is failing. Deprived of proper nuitrients, the husk can only be used temporarily. [ 10-01-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 10-01-2003 06:38 PM by shapeshifter
Continuing ***spoilerish**** (to Nightscape) discussion: * * * I like your idea that Nicholas' husk survived. I never considered that. It cleans up a plot hole nicely. Though I personally don't mind the mystery of him surviving, because of the way it was presented right at the end of Wipe Out, rather than having him reappear out of the blue later. But I'm also open to the tv-tie in books being an Alternate Universe in general. After all, the tv show is an alternate universe of the original books. |
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Posted 10-01-2003 07:45 PM by Reggie
<Liz Mythologist hat on> 1. Did you notice that (on Smallville), when Chloe went to work for Lionel Luthor and joined the Dark Side... her hair was all mussed? Would you call it the Dis-Tressed Chloe Theory? And now that she's back on the good side, her hair's neat again; but slightly different. 2. Also on Smallville, they played a re-make of the song "Calling All Angels". Interesting... since the original was played on the original: Roswell. 3. Isn't Evil Clark a whole lot like Evil Max? It's his looks, attitude, or... something. Hmmm. |
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Posted 10-01-2003 10:12 PM by shapeshifter
Hey Reg 1. I noticed her hair was changing, but missed the deja vu of it all. 2. But I did notice the Calling All Angels (I always watch with captions on). 3. But no, not Maxcedo nearly as much as Dupe Zan. |
Posted 10-02-2003 04:06 AM by Reggie
quote: |
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Posted 10-02-2003 06:36 PM by The Real Momo
I don't watch Smallville, but it's not surprising that they are still ripping material from Roswell. It's not the first time; it won't be the last. ****spoilerish**** Now, back to Roswell. I think of the new series of books from "A New Beginning" as an extension of the series rather than an alternate universe. Some of the earlier stuff is definitely AU and the series is AU of the Metz books, but "A New Beginning" picks up right from when they leave Roswell, so I think the intention is that it's a continuation rather than an alternate AU which is how I am interpreting Nicholas. I think Nicholas' disappearance and re-emergence is a plot problem that doesn't entirely go away. Given that Nicholas is a Skin, he should have been destroyed in Tess' fireball. The fact that he isn't is problematic. Rolling back the tape, Nicholas shows fear when the fireball approaches. I think he knew he was in trouble. None of the successing images show Nicholas getting away or trying to defend himself. He just disappears. The question is always going to be: How? Certainly, a damaged husk via fireball would send him back running for the immature replacement husk and would serve him as a temporary safe shelter until a new one could be grown which is obviously what Nicholas was trying to do in "Nightscape". The problem comes from the time Nicholas vanishes in Wipeout to when he reappears at the very end. If Tess's fireball really wiped out the Skins, how did Nicholas survive? Or did he? A Nicholas mind-warp? A possibility, perhaps the best option. The only other pausible option is that Tess's mindwarp is not exactly what it seems and something is amiss, something we missed. Had Katims and company had been able to film the 2-hr finale they had wanted, that would have been addressed. Unfortunately for us, we got 1 hr. and everything concerning the Skins and Dupes wound up scrapped. That's 2-hr. script would have been extremely revealing and wouldn't I love to have had my hands on that (if it exists) or have been sitting in the story development meeting. And so far, in the new series of books, I haven't seen anything that would qualify yet as an AU experience, just some really big chads from the authors/editors who didn't do their homework properly. So I'm going to work from the assumption that it's continuous from "Graduation" for another point of view. |
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Posted 10-03-2003 01:33 AM by ukspacegirl
Hi people! Okay, I'm going to post this.. This is an interesting debate, and a lot of you make points that I’d like to talk further about, if that’s okay. Someone theorized that Tess may have been a ‘second wife’ and that Max/Zan could have had another wife on Antar.. It is clearly stated several times, in different episodes, that Tess was the Queen, that Max and Tess were in love, they were married: In Baby It’s You, Max and Michael on the basketball court, when Max tells Michael of Tess’s pregnancy. Max: It’s out of my hands, I can’t tell Tess what to do. In ‘Off The Menu’ Larek remembers – and he was there! Brody/Larek: ‘Damaris Rock! Named after the third moon – where you two first met – you must remember – you saw her sitting on a rock – you said she was the most beautiful girl you’d ever seen.’ Then later – ‘You do love her.’ Max in the City, after the Summit, Larek to Max, with Tess there: Larek: ‘Our families used to be very close. We practically grew up together. I was at your father’s funeral, your coronation, your wedding. We were friends..’ At the end of Off The Menu, when Max climbs in Tess’s window: Tess: What is it Max? Then he touches her face, and she cries. I took that to mean that he remembered that he’d loved her, been married to her on Antar. I like that Tess is the most talked about character. She’s incredibly interesting, - like Angelina Jolie’s character in ‘Gone in 60 seconds’ – beautiful, and all that talent left unused! I also agree that Tess couldn’t have had the mindwarpy powers to sustain the Alex thing for three months. That’s the biggest plot-hole of them all, and seems to be the 'justification' for the - criminilization! of Tess, who up until that point was having a hard enough time anyway, just to be accepted.. I have a theory that TPTB thought of the Dupes and the Podsters as interchangeable. 'Spares',if you like. Which is why they left Ave 'out there' - so she could 'step in' once they got rid of Tess. They better not let anything happen to Max, tho.. )Shakes head, sadly. WHAT were they thinking?) |
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Posted 10-03-2003 09:10 AM by Tess Shipper Whore
Tess was not "evil" in the way, you know, Lonnie was, for example. She just wanted to be accepted. But of course, they all treated her like crap. If they'd been nicer to her, she wouldn't have gone through with the deal. I think that when she got the flash of Max and Liz kissing in Departure, it was the final nail in the coffin, and if she'd been having doubts about it (like the missing scene in Departure showed) they were gone. That's what happened, if in fact Tess was in charge of her own mind. I do love the Nikolas theory. Somebody said, waaaay over there, something about Kal and how he knew Tess was the enemy or something. Kal never said that. Max did. "I slept with the enemy, then sent my own child back with her. It was the biggest mistake of my life....." blah blah blah And the same person I think said that it was a reflection on Queen Ava -- what drugs are you on? Kal revealed that he was watching Max, he knew about Liz and about the rift between Max and his parents. He was probably watching them a) their whole lives, b) since the shooting, or c) since Nasado and Tess arrived in Roswell. He presumably knew about Nasado's deal already. He would know that Max and Tess slept together and Tess got pregnant. He'd know when Tess left. Even if he'd been the one who'd called Tess the enemy, there's nothing to suggest it had anything to do with their past lives. Because as I said before, what would be the point of them having past lives if everything on Antar went down the exact same way as it did on Earth? |
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Posted 10-04-2003 12:10 AM by shapeshifter
It's nice when we get to talk about things that haven't been discussed very much previously because they only aired twice, separated by at least a year, and in the middle of other episodes, leaving little time to reflect. quote:Now that I read this post, I see that this is probably the way this scene would be interpreted by anyone seeing the episode as a stand-alone, and, indeed, by many serious fans. I will have to consider it. Heretofore I have always thought Tess had mindwarped Brody and Max into believing that she and Max were in love on Antar; an arranged, loveless marriage seemed plausible, if the momomgram and the Destiny book were also fabrications as part of Nasedo's deal/plot. I thought she cried because she did genuinely want him to love her (surely obessing over all the pictures of him--in the box in TLV, evidently for mindwarping purposes--would have turned any young lady's head), and, sadly, the only way she could interest Max in herself was by faking a romantic past. Or, perhaps she cried because she had always been plotting against him (on Antar and later with Nasedo), and, now genuinely attracted to him, had remorse. IMAGE: thesmudge.com/shapeshifter/Roswell/stuff/tlvpicbox1.jpg IMAGE: thesmudge.com/shapeshifter/Roswell/stuff/tlvpicbox.jpg IMAGE: thesmudge.com/shapeshifter/Roswell/stuff/tlvmaxpic.jpg
quote:I had never thought about the significance of this line before, as it is spoken to Kal. If he'd said it to a friend of Alex, it wouldn't be so surprising. But for the writers to have Max refer to Tess as "The Enemy" to Kal, does imply that Kal would think of her as the enemy as well. [ 10-04-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 10-04-2003 01:31 PM by ukspacegirl
On the subject of Mindwarps (takes a deep breath!) This is interesting. I find it hard to believe that people actually believe Max was mind-warped into loving Tess. In ‘Departure’ Liz asks Max ‘ Tell me one thing, do you love her?’ That seems to be generally taken to mean Max didn’t love Tess at all, though he slept with her. I took it to mean that he did love Tess – I mean, what kind of a b**tard would he be, to sleep with someone and get her pregnant if he didn’t care about her? At all? It had already been pointed out (in Off the Menu) when Max goes to Tess’s room after he healed Brody - he says ‘I remember you.’ What did that mean? ‘I remembered our first meeting, (which he first remembered the night of the prom when they kissed). 'I remember that we were married, I remember that you loved me and I loved you. ‘ Isn’t that what Max remembers? Max and Tess never talked about love in the present tense, only that he’d loved her in the past – in ‘Ask Not, playing ‘pat a cake’ – Tess talks to Max about ‘a life when you loved me’ – he says then he doesn’t remember; and MITC – I think, in that other life, you must have been one great husband ‘– That was a mindwarp too? If Tess was messing with Max’s mind, surely she would have made it so that he remembered her totally, loved her completely? Otherwise it’s just half-baked and surely makes no sense from Tess’s point of view. If Tess wanted Max to herself, and had the mindwarpy powers to do it (a point that's still open to debate) why didn’t she make Max totally her creature and make him forget all about Liz? When Max tells Kal ‘I slept with the enemy’- Tess wasn’t the enemy at the time; when he slept with her, Tess was Max’s only friend, because Isabel had cut him off, Michael had tried to kill him (! In WDAMYK), Liz was on her crusade to find the ‘alien killer’, and telling Max ‘You don’t want to think an alien killed him (Alex) because that would mean that YOU are responsible’. I think when Max said this to Kal, he was expressing his unhappiness at the whole situation – that he couldn’t be an ordinary teen with an ordinary girlfriend in an ordinary town – he had a pregnant girlfriend that he’d allowed to travel to the far reaches of space with their unborn son. It was only because he saw her as the enemy that it became 'okay' to send her away, pregnant. Doesn't anybody else have a problem with that? It’s a major problem I have with Max’s character. Max was young and indecisive, but never heartless. (Up until that moment, that is.) Watching Tess blast off into space with their son, and running to Liz moments after. Git. Given that Kal already knew about Liz and even Max’s mum, it would be very surpising if he didn’t know about Tess. And your point about Larek /Brody – Do you mean Larek never existed, that he was a mind-warp by Tess? What about MITC? Did she mind-warp him then too? What about the other emissaries? All mind-warped? Max's feelings for Tess began, tentatively, in ‘The End of the World’ – when Max acceptied Tess’s companionship after finding Liz with Kyle, meant that Tess decided to stay in Roswell. (Tess had been planning to leave, as the missing scenes describe) – if she'd been mind warping Max, there would be no reason to plan to leave. And wouldn't Future Max have had something to say about it? Like, watch out for Tess, because even though we need her to stop Kivar invading this planet, she's gonna mind warp me.. Reading through ‘Crash into Me’ the synopsis for ‘Meet the Dupes’ and the red giant/black hole that is the metaphor for Max and Liz’s relationship – the author asks 'has Max’s love for Liz truly been destroyed, leaving a void?’ And later, two quotes about Tess – ’Tess is also becoming more sympathetic as she stands by Max.’ Not ‘Tess is an evil-mind-warping alien with untold powers who is mind-warping Max into actually having a relationship with her.’ I kind of thought he managed that on his own. The way he began to have feelings for Tess seemed a natural progression, given all that they were going through. - This isn't a rant! It's just that your theories are so VERY different from what I understood from Roswell! I had to say what I thought. Hope this is okay..
ukspacie [ 10-04-2003: Message edited ukspacegirl ] |
Posted 10-04-2003 02:11 PM by shapeshifter
quote:No, I'd never considered that Larek didn't exist, just that the "memories" in Off The Menu were possibly mindwarps. I got this idea because Tess had been trying to mindwarp Brody earlier in that episode, and then Max saw the "memories" after the anti-alien device was turned off. But then I realized Brody had "memories" when the device was on too. So I'm more inclined to believe they were real. After Michael conveniently exonerated Isabel in Interrruptus, I also considered that perhaps Tess was the "traitor" in their midst (if there even was one). This could fit with Whitakker's taking Tess in Surprise because she thought Tess would be the one to join the Skins' cause. But then nobody seemed really interested in the Congresswoman's cause, and she got zapped. I always wanted Tess to be accepted into the group, but TPTB seemed to think she made a more suitable EMHB, so when concocting theories, I am stuck with that outcome. But any theories I propose are just that: theories. Not proven Roswell canon. And now that you mention it, I suppose Larek could be a mindwarp--given that Tess was in NY with Max, and TPTB gave Tess incredible powers to mindwarp Alex for months. But it's not a theory I would have chosen on which to base the story. Pesonally, I prefer the alternate Roswell universes of Roswell What Might Have Been (without Tess, I think) and Roswell Readers Choice (with kinder, gentler Tess, I think). |
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Posted 10-04-2003 03:24 PM by ukspacegirl
Hi Shapeshifter - I thought Whittaker took Tess by mistake - I think she told Isabel that she was the one they wanted.. 'the other alien-human hybrid' - One theory I had was that Max had probably healed Tess after Whittaker nearly killed her - which would have meant some alien bonding (!) And Isabel's exoneration - Michael proved that Kivar double-crossed Vilandra - she had been told nobody would get hurt.. so Kivar was a double-crossing traitor, and Vilandra had been lied to in order to get her support for the rebellion.. so Tess wasn't implicated there. In terms of plot-holes, I always felt the whole Alex-was-killed by an alien thing to be totally ill-constructed and downright silly.. in the books, Alex went to another planet, didn't he, and came back a new, macho guy.. maybe they should have sent him to Antar! But then Max wouldn't have had a 'reason' for his search for all of S3.. Thanks for the links! And the discussion.. |
Posted 10-04-2003 04:03 PM by Tess Shipper Whore
quote: That makes no sense. There is no canon evidence to support that -- and don't you think Kivar would have mentioned it in Interruptus? He didn't even mention Tess, which is weird since Tess was supposedly with him already, laughing at how easily she'd mindwarped Max into sleeping with her. And thanks for using my earlier post for evil purposes, shapeshifter. |
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Posted 10-04-2003 05:22 PM by The Christmas Nazi
Can we keep the arguing to a minimum ? If not , I will be forced to take an action that I don't want to take . I will have to get a super mod to put a ban on someone . Please respect the opinions of all the people on the board even if they don't agree with the views carry . Thank you . |
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Posted 10-04-2003 05:33 PM by Tess Shipper Whore
.....I was arguing? Sorry. |
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Posted 10-04-2003 05:33 PM by shapeshifter
Thanks, The Christmas Nazi.
quote:ITA. Alex on Antar would have been much more consistent, and much more popular with the fans. But perhaps the writers who wrote the murder of Alex hadn't ever read the Metz books and didn't even consider it. Too bad, because Alex/Colin did actually look much more buff after he returned from Sweden. LOL [ 10-04-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 10-04-2003 05:52 PM by greenglow
Hi! Just a quick footnote... WDAMYK is an S3 ep, takes place *after* Max meeting Kal, so when Max gets Tess pregnant, Michael hadn't try to kill him... in fact, Michael is the one Max goes to advice, after Isabel shut him off (and at the time, he deserved to be shutted of by her). And yes, Max always seems disgusted by Tess, like she is being imposed to him (and she is, and by Liz, of all people!) Max's relationship with Tess is always by all the wrong reasons, he never puts is heart into it, despite all the dialogs mentioned earlier... The pregnancy plotline is part of the mess that killed Roswell. That and the EMHB plot. OTM is the most stupid thing ever wrote, and HOM, CYN and everytihg after is probably the biggest treason to fans ever! And S3... I still have problems if that is Roswell or AU!! Maybe the correct way of making sense of all that mess is considering everything from "Heart of Mine" to "Graduation" just an AU??!! [ 10-04-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
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Posted 10-05-2003 01:05 AM by ukspacegirl
Hi Greenglow- I agree with the A/U theory! And everything else you said.. except for the 'Max being disgusted' part - I would have said 'reluctant' (!) - the Reluctant Husband - (or former husband..)isn't that an Oscar Wilde play! But then, you know I have a Rebel heart so I wouldn't see it that way.. we'll have to just 'agree to disagree' on that point! |
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Posted 10-05-2003 01:36 PM by shapeshifter
I can imagine any teen (I know it's hard, but, remember, JB is supposed to be a teen) being freaked out with, or maybe rebellious about, if not "disgusted" by the idea that his whole sexual life has been mapped out for him, and that it is to be with someone from a former life--especially if he has just deeply connected with the girl he's had a crush on since 3rd grade. But I think the story could have survived this plot device if Tess & Kyle had resumed lamp trimming after Wipe Out. Tess and Liz could have had a girl-to-girl chat in which both admitted that they'd rather be with Kyle & Max respectively. It could have been humorous, even. If the writers wanted to include a teen pregnancy, a more acceptable (to the audience, IMO) scenario would have been Maria & Michael. I could even imagine Jim & Amy babysitting together while Maria & Michael resumed fighting evil aliens and the Special Unit and just growing up. |
Posted 10-05-2003 03:42 PM by The Real Momo
quote: Just backtracking a little. "Queenie" is a derogatory term. It comes from the English. It usually refers to a person who "puts on airs" or acts above their station. As Rath and Lonny use it, it is a "put-down" of Ava. It is meant to show disrespect of said person, in this case, Ava. Undoubtably, Rath and Lonny probably thought Ava was "acting above her station" when she married into the Royal Family of Antar for whatever reason. And to clarify another point. The suggestion of a Tess mindwarp of Brody/Larek stems from the images we see flashing in Brody/Larek's head. There is one image that does not belong there. It is the image of the Royal Seal of Antar as drawn by Rath. As far as we know, Brody/Larek and Rath had no prior contact before the summit. The only place he could have gotten that image from was either Tess or Max. Since Tess tried to get into Brody/Larek's mind first, it has been suggested that instead of trying to find out what was really happening to Brody/Larek, Tess had the opportunity and motive to perform a mindwarp here. It was advantageous to her aims and goals. And we can never forget that one of Tess's gifts is "the art of manipulation". I agree that Michael's exoneration of Isabel was "convenient", a quick way to resolve a complex issue for Isabel. I would have prefered that Isabel did betray her brother than the quick, oh, by the way Isabel, you didn't betray your brother speech by Michael's sudden convenient memory (It was Kivar). I'm sure the answer wasn't that simple. I've always been of a mind that the fall of Antar was a complete betrayal by all the pod squad on Antar -- Rath, Vilandra and Ava all in their own way betraying King Zan. But then, I'm an Arthurian fan and there are too many Arthurian references in Roswell to write them off. This is not to say that Rath, Vilandra and Ava did not love Zan, because Launcelot and Guinevere loved Arthur. Morgana was another story. [ 10-05-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 10-05-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 10-05-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 10-05-2003 04:20 PM by greenglow
Ukspacegirl: we can agree on disagree, but I just want to say that 'disgusted' is just the way I read the actions of Max, all his ambivalence and reluctance towards Tess, its not because I don't ship rebel, its just the way I understood the story... I always found Tess a very interesting character and actually came to like her, I think the 'right' way to develop her character would be lamptrimming. Shapeshifter: I agree with you, the story could have survived, if HOM was not re-shaped to turn Tess the EMHB and prepare Alex's death. In VLV everything is pointing to your solution... its really the only logical outcome for things, its almost unbelievable how the production decided to change it. In HOM we really can see that the script is "twisted", until half it is going one way and then it is "bended" to go another way. On Antar: like Momo, I also think things on the "Antarian" past-life of the royal four were more then meets the eye. This part of the story seems to be inspired in Greek mythology and Vilandra's treason is always portrayed in a way that makes you suspect of a woman's revenge on a former lover, not a sister that "just" wants to rule on her brother's place. Maybe they didn't want to pursue that issue because it would be a very unusual thing to talk about incest, even alien incest, in tv Rath and Ava roles are also very blurred... We know Rath was supported by a faction to become king and Ava is a big question mark... but when Roswell was still making sense, the more the pod squad discovered about their "past lives" the more they found their former alien selfs were really someone you wouldn't want to be acquainted with. So, I agree it is probable that everyone betrayed Zan with different agendas. Zan is likely have been a kind of dictator himself... I guess we will never know for sure, unless Roswell becomes a movie franchise... and if that ever happens please let that movie be *our* Roswell and not the "AU" we saw in late S2 and S3!!! [ 10-05-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
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Posted 10-05-2003 04:28 PM by The Real Momo
There has always been speculation about Liz's change. And our first confirmation, outside of Liz's own feelings, comes from none other than Ava when she says, "Max brought you back from the dead. You've been changed." and again, "Look, there's not enough time to explain. You have to trust me here. If Max brought you back, then ... you're different now." Later, in a cut scene from the blue script of "Max in the City", Ava finally tells Liz in their "goodbye" scene: LIZ: Thank you. For ... everything. AVA: No big deal. LIZ: It is to me. (beat) Just ... one more thing. How'd you know that I'd ... been changed? Ava hesitates, almost doesn't tell her, figues she owes it to her. AVA: Our protector... said that if we were to use our powers on a human ... if we brought them across the line between life and death ... it would change them forever. (beat) But beyond that, I don't know what it means, Liz. I just thought you should know. So through Ava, we get the confirmation that Liz is changed by the healing, not the psychic connection. Ava learned this from the Dupes protector. If that is the case, then Nasedo and Langley must have known that Liz would be changed, yet Nasedo or Langley ever hints that they know this. Yet Langley was advocating Liz and Nasedo was not. Did they know? And if Nasedo knew (which I suspect he did), why not tell Tess? It certainly appears Tess didn't have a clue when Liz powerblasts her. Anyway, it's the healing that changes Liz, always suspected, now confirmed. __________________________ Back a moment to Max and Tess' relationship. Why sleep with her? Well, from Max's emotional makeup, it is probably the last thing he wanted to do. From his reaction in Baby, It's You, he seems very uncomfortable about this development. Personally, I think this was something Max would never have done (as he had been written to this point). He would never have pulled a tit for tat because of Kyle. In fact, his reaction would have been to retreat and not get involved with anyone, let alone Tess. My feeling is that Max resigned himself to Destiny, that he lost faith and no longer felt he controled his destiny. He took up the mantle of his preordained life which included Tess and that he did this through a sense of "duty and honor." To understand this, you must remember that "Crouching Lion, Hidden Tiger" was he favorite movie. This movie is all about "duty and honor" and the sacrifices made by the two star-crossed lovers who put their love aside for "duty and honor". He even mentions Michelle Yeow whose character is everything he admires in Liz. By choosing "duty and honor", he sacrifices his love for Liz for a life with Tess. He does not love Tess the way he loves Liz. Liz, he loves with all his heart and soul; Tess he loves as he loves his family. It's this sense of family that ties him to Tess, a family he doesn't really know but a family he must love through obligation, through a sense of "duty and honor." That's part of the difference between his love for Liz and Tess. Max, conflicted as he is, is genuinely trying to do the "right" thing without realizing that it is "all wrong". [ 10-05-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 10-05-2003 04:52 PM by The Real Momo
greenglow: I totally agree about the Greek mythology. I'm adding Roman to the mix, too. Arthurian legend was built on classical, Jewish, and Christian mythology. The only point I'm not so sure on is that Zan was a dictator. I think he was probably very like King Arthur, a king who wanted to do right, but was so progressive that his subjects weren't ready for to accept "change". I also agree that shapeshifter is right, that the story could have been salvaged by turning Tess in the direction of Kyle. Personally, I always thought the dialogue between Kyle and Tess was crisper, funnier and all and all better written than anything between Max and Tess. Their relationship just didn't gel plus the Max/Liz relationship was so well developed that the bulk of the fans would never accept Tess with Max. [ 10-05-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 10-05-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
Posted 10-05-2003 07:32 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Maybe Tess did know--just not to what extent. Remember this exchange from HTOHL when Kyle & Alex were trapped in the Gandarium nest:
MAX: [As the trio gives up] Our powers don’t work on these! LIZ: [Clapping her hand over the cell phone mouthpiece] Are you sure? TESS: You’re welcome to try! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:Well stated. As a female who came of age in the 60's and 70's, I found myself more than once waking up with conflicted feelings like those mirrored on Max's face in the observatory. But I had never considered what it would be like to be a guy in that kind of situtation. |
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Posted 10-06-2003 01:51 AM by Citrus and Vine
IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/cryname/tn_cryname031_jpg.jpg Max and Michael were discussing movies. Max never said that Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was his “favorite” movie. Here is the dialog. MAX: You are so full of it. |
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Posted 10-06-2003 01:53 AM by Citrus and Vine
Liz was the love of Max’s life. It amazes me to hear someone say that “Max sacrificed his love for Liz for a life with Tess”. Max didn’t stop loving Liz. But he couldn’t love Liz in the way that he had wanted to. Liz put a stop to allowing Max to be a part of her life. Liz came within 3 minutes of never seeing Max again. Liz had pushed Max out of her life. She broke up with him. She told him she wanted to be with normal boys. She convinced Max that she slept with Kyle. Liz was only willing to be friends with Max, nothing more. Liz lost Max to Tess, because she was afraid Max might one day remember Tess from their past lives together and choose Tess over her. Liz treated Max badly. She lied to him, repeatedly. She had many opportunities to get back with Max. She also could have stayed with Max in the first place and never broken up with him. Tess let her love for Max be destroyed, because she hated that Max continued to think of Liz. Tess did not appreciate what she had in Max’s love. She did not give their love a chance to continue. Liz didn’t give Max’s love for her a chance to continue, either. Both Tess and Liz hated Max’s past relationship with the other. For each lady, their jealousy over Max’s past wrecked their love for Max. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/1/destiny/desty175.jpg [ 10-06-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 10-06-2003 06:51 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
Citrus and Vine- ITA with some of your post. Max did choose Tess over Liz in my opinion and that's why I felt that Liz should've never married Max in Graduation. It doesn't matter if Liz was the love of Max's life or not, I don't ever see them being happy because Max was not the same lovable guy from S1 in my eyes. Max became tainted with excess baggage and Liz became a person that I didn't recognize anymore. Yes, Liz walked away from Max in Destiny because she thought she was doing the right thing. After all, it was Max that said "it's just the four of us now," and what was Liz really supposed to do? I never thought Liz should've walked away from Max, but that's what the writers wrote. In fact the writers wrote the whole train wreck starting from the end of S2 and it continued all throughout S3. But, if people loved it that's great but I guess I'm in the minority because I hated it. The problem I have is when you say Liz repeatedly lied to Max. But, didn't Tess lie also and turned out to be the enemy. I thought Liz lied to save the world according to TEOTW, but since Max chose Tess over Liz, why did Tess still go through with the plan to get pregnant and lead the Pod Squad to their deaths? I have watched TEOTW again and people stated that it was FLiz's plan to send FMax 14 years back in time. No one can tell whose plan it was because all you can see and hear is FLiz telling FMax "that he has to do this." The plan could've been FMax's from the start and FLiz just pushed him in that direction. Or it could've been FLiz's plan, but I guess people can draw their own conclusions. In any attempt, Liz might have lied to Max but it was to help him. I don't see Tess's lying and scheming helping Max or the Pod Squad. In fact, Tess's lying and scheming caused the death of Liz's best friend which only caused misery and the humans and aliens to separate. It was wrong of Liz to lie to Max and I could never accept Liz pretending to sleep with Kyle because that's something Liz would have never done. But, I guess with all the pressures from FMax Liz did the best she could being a seventeen year old girl with the fate of the world hanging in the balance. Lovely discussion by the way. [ 10-06-2003: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
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Posted 10-06-2003 09:24 AM by The Real Momo
Just to clarify: When I say Max "sacrificed his love for Liz", it does not mean he loves her any less. And, on the other foot, it doesn't mean Liz loves Max any less when she walks away from Max and tries to push him in the direction of Tess. I agree that Liz's decision to "walk away" was based on Max's comment "It's just the four of us now." "Walking away" was the last thing that Liz really wanted to do, but, in her conflicted state, she probably thought, rightly or wrongly, it was the only decision she could have made. As for Liz's lying to Max, we have to remember that she was lying to "protect" the Pod Squad - Max, Isabel, and Michael from what she thought would be certain death and she did so only because FMax tells her. The lies Liz told to Max were based on her love for him. Yes, that does mean she treated him badly at times, but Max also treated Liz badly at times as well. "However, let's put tit for tat aside for a moment. Liz sacrifices her love for Max for "the greater good. She doesn't "want" to do it, but she does and pays the consequences although she is not fully ready or mature enough to accept those consequences. Tess, on the other had, uses her intentional lies in a more selfish manner -- to achieve clandestine goals and to cover up mistakes. It's about Tess, not Max. That's the difference. Whoops, got to go for now. Be back later for more. [ 10-06-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 10-06-2003 02:20 PM by Reggie
Well, if we're stable now... Errr... that is, if the Board is stable. No reflection on us posters. Greenglow: Right; and since Harding never eats a tic-tac, particularly after shapeshifting (as Tic-tac did), then clearly he isn't Tic-tac. It's not part of the character setup for Harding, who therefore can not be Tic-tac. As to which of them is "Nacedo", I think it's Tic-tac; but that's a style thing. I don't recall any hard evidence, just soft. The Real Momo: Well put; and (in those terms) Tic-tac is civilized, Harding isn't. Note that Harding has left a trail of silver handprints, while Tic-tac has left none (even on Michael's Hank). Reggie: Momo: Your rebuttal is impecable and perceptive; but that's not the point I'd been trying to make. My point is that, for any Leader to be plausible there must be a realistic group of followers. K' var has an army, in Nikolas & the Skins; Michael had Courtney, who at least spoke of others in her group. Only Max seems to have no followers, except Tess. The others all treat Max as more of an equal than a Leader; particularly Liz. True, Max could have followers "offstage", his mother and so on; but that's less of a credential than one honest-to-goodness follower in sight. Plus, as you said about Tess herself: Shapeshifter: It sounds like they were mocking her. (Would anyone address HRH Queen Elizabeth II as "Queenie"? ) But from what I've heard of them, I don't consider the books published after the series was canelled as "cannon"; more like badly-written fanfic. At best. like the Star Trek novels: interesting in their own right, but not cannon. Shapeshifter: So Nikolas is actually protecting the Royal Four? That's a... novel interpretation. As for Nikolas's survival: we know that Max can shield himself (the green Jello shield). Perhaps Nikolas also has that ability? Remember that the Skins & R4 do share some abilities. If Nikolas had a second husk, it would have been only a little more ripe than Courtney's (don't they take 20 years to grow?). It would have expired as Courtney's did, long before MitC. Nikolas looks just fine in that episode. Greenglow: The pregnancy plotline is part of the mess that killed Roswell. That and the EMHB plot. OTM is the most stupid thing ever wrote, and HOM, CYN and everytihg after is probably the biggest treason to fans ever! And S3... I still have problems if that is Roswell or AU!! Maybe the correct way of making sense of all that mess is considering everything from "Heart of Mine" to "Graduation" just an AU??!! Well, just about. UKspacegirl: Perhaps "dutiful"? Max remembered Tess, and saw it as his duty to treat her as his wife; even though he really loved Liz. But as a married guy, he had to stay away from her... hence his ambivalence toward the end. He loved Tess, but not as he Loved Liz. (That's another point I solved, BTW. ) Shapeshifter: Or perhaps this is the character's reaction to Max's news. He just can't keep it in his pants, can he? Max is too young to support a child, which would be a liability in the battles to come anyway. His human girlfriend surely knows better than to permit him to get her pregnant, so the mother must have be his "bride", who obviously was devoted to him... And now she's "the enemy" ?!? And he's lost The Granolyth. Sheesh, what a nitwit. The Christmas Nazi: Wha...? We're just discussing alternative possibilities. It's OK, really! We're throwing around quotations, not insults; and not bothering anyone. Now, the thread right above us has been giving tap dancing lessons. Perhaps you could ask them to keep it down? The Real Momo: I was always partial to a version of the Helen of Troy story: K' var kidnapped Villandra, then put the word out that she'd come to him voluntarily. She'd be trapped; even if she escaped, she'd been so vilified that no one would believe her. As for Liz's lying to Max, we have to remember that she was lying to "protect" the Pod Squad - Max, Isabel, and Michael from what she thought would be certain death and she did so only because FMax tells her. The lies Liz told to Max were based on her love for him. Yes, that does mean she treated him badly at times, but Max also treated Liz badly at times as well. Yes, but! Liz never told Max (that we know of) that there was any good behind her actions. As far as he knew, she really did want him out of her life, and did have sex with Kyle. We can't hold Max responsible for (eventually) believing her, can we? As for Max, there was no hidden agenda; he did everything with no higher goal in mind. Oh, and "Doing It" with Tess? At that age, a guy'd try to Do It with just about anybody. If Tess was willing, it'd happen. Fish in a barrel. Sonia E.: Because it wasn't Tess's plan. It was Nikolas's. He was supposed to get the R4 and the Granolyth back to "Twilo", for their official (re-)execution. He MWed her to believe it was Mr. Harding's plan, and a few other things; but only Nikolas could have handled Alex in Las Cruces. Given Nikolas's involvement in that, it's only logical that the whole plan was his (not Tess's). He had the most to gain, far more than Tess. Remember, K' var killed them all once, and remains hostile. Putting Tess's life in K' var's hand doesn't seem like a good idea, for Tess. [ 10-06-2003: Message edited Reggie ] |
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Posted 10-06-2003 03:20 PM by Tess Shipper Whore
The Real Momo -- And to clarify another point. The suggestion of a Tess mindwarp of Brody/Larek stems from the images we see flashing in Brody/Larek's head. There is one image that does not belong there. It is the image of the Royal Seal of Antar as drawn by Rath. As far as we know, Brody/Larek and Rath had no prior contact before the summit. The only place he could have gotten that image from was either Tess or Max. Since Tess tried to get into Brody/Larek's mind first, it has been suggested that instead of trying to find out what was really happening to Brody/Larek, Tess had the opportunity and motive to perform a mindwarp here. It was advantageous to her aims and goals. And we can never forget that one of Tess's gifts is "the art of manipulation". Yeah, but what would be the point of her going into Brody/Larek's head and actually being able to do stuff, but not doing an actual mindwarp on him? Brody had a gun. If he shot Max, waited until Max died, and then shot Tess, then hey -- she wouldn't be able to complete the deal. I agree, that image was there, I have the episode on my computer, but maybe Tess was just remembering stuff about New York upon seeing Brody/Larek's memories? Even if she was placing false memories into his mind, I can't see Rath's drawing being a high-priority false memory, can you? I agree that Michael's exoneration of Isabel was "convenient", a quick way to resolve a complex issue for Isabel. I would have prefered that Isabel did betray her brother than the quick, oh, by the way Isabel, you didn't betray your brother speech by Michael's sudden convenient memory (It was Kivar). I'm sure the answer wasn't that simple. It's been suggested in some places that Michael was actually making that up to try to get through to Isabel, and I like this explanation. It seems far too convenient otherwise. I've always been of a mind that the fall of Antar was a complete betrayal by all the pod squad on Antar -- Rath, Vilandra and Ava all in their own way betraying King Zan. But then, I'm an Arthurian fan and there are too many Arthurian references in Roswell to write them off. This is not to say that Rath, Vilandra and Ava did not love Zan, because Launcelot and Guinevere loved Arthur. Morgana was another story. But, if Rath and Ava had also betrayed Zan, don't you think the Skins would have somehow revealed this information to Max (or Michael/Tess) the way they did with Isabel? I mean, wouldn't they think that it would affect him the same way -- Nikolas even called Tess Max's girlfriend in MitC. And as for Michael, Courtney basically said the opposite, and she sounded disappointed as hell about it too, which leads me to believe she wasn't lying. And in Wipeout, when Nikolas had them all tied up, he didn't mention anything about the past in relation to Michael or Tess (and this is before he started Mindwarping Tess, unless he can see the future, you can't assume he would have known that opportunity would arise). As some people said, true leaders need at least one follower -- if it was true that Ava betrayed Zan, I would think Nikolas would want to either taunt Max with hints like he did with Isabel, or to tell Tess like Whitaker told Isabel, especially if he really thought that Max and Tess were together. (Side note -- who exactly would Morgana be in this scenario?) |
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Posted 10-06-2003 03:43 PM by greenglow
Hi Reggie!
quote: Ok, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that you know, with so many CHADS, forgeting something like "putting Harding to eat a Tic-tac to finish-up the plot-device" would never be noticed by the writers You have a very interesting post there. The mythical influences you listed are very well observed. "Troy" is also an interesting possibility for Antar events. |
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Posted 10-06-2003 07:05 PM by The Real Momo
orginally posted by Citrus & Vine quote: Perhaps "favorite" was the wrong word to use here. From his conversation with Michael, we know that Max liked and admired the movie.
quote: I thought Nicholas made it very clear that Max had a strong group of followers at the summit. Part of conditions set forth for the peace treaty and Max's return to Antar was for Max to tell his followers to lay down their arms. So from that, we can assume that Max had a strong faction that supported him on Antar. If Max had no support, this condition would not have been necessary.
quote: I agree that the image of the Royal Seal would not be a high priority false memory to implant in Brody, but we also know that Tess was not always able to control the mindwarp. The suggestion of one false memory implanted in Brody's mind opens the idea doubt to allBrody's memories. The theory was if you can prove one memory is false, then all of them could be false. One of the objects of the alleged mindwarp was to make Brody/Larek surrender the gun. Tess, by making him remember Zan and Ava may have thought that Larek, who was a friend to Zan, would have given up his gun to Zan, not Max. At the same time, it served the dual purpose of trying to make Max remember his Antarian relationship with Tess by using Brody/Larek. While Brody does wield the gun at that time, Max and Tess still have their powers and have no ultimate fear of the gun until the "alien weapon" is turned on. The fear lies in exposure of the alien's identity to the unsuspecting humans and the harm that might come to the human hostages. However, the mindwarp backfires. WhenTess tries to get into his mind, he realizes what she is trying to do. Larek turns on the alien weapon and then begins to remember Zan and Ava. So the theory persists.
quote: I think Nicholas alludes to this in MITC when he says to Max that he "continues" to put his faith in the wrong people. While he refers to Isabel as Vilandra, he uses a present reference to Michael giving up the location of the Granilith to Courtney. But I think his intention was to tell Max, you couldn't trust them then and you can't trust them now. Obviously, Lancelot is Michael, second in command. Politcally loyal, Lancelot betrayed Arthur with Guinevere. However, he eventually takes arms against the king (in some versions) to save the queen. At the same time, he manages to stay loyal to the king. Michael, we know, has a group of "Michael worshippers" according to Courtney, but remained loyal to the king. However, we also know that Michael liked the "power" associated with the king and is jealous of Max. Somewhere (in something we haven't seen) was the betrayal. Now, Morganna has been split into both Isabel and Tess. Originally, I thought that Isabel would be a straight updated rip-off of Morganna -- the sister who betrays her brother, the king. However, they have taken the second part of the story and transferred it to Tess -- that is the story of the king who was seduced in order to have a baby who is intended to be the royal successor to the throne. The intended objective of Morganna was to have the king's son, kill the king, and set up her son as the new king. King Arthur, in this case, is seduced by Morganna through the use of trickery, specifically, magic through illusion. In the same way, Tess becomes the seducer who tricks the king, becomes pregnant, uses her son to bring Max to Antar to be executed, then the son becomes heir. Initially, this gave rise to the idea that Tess, too, used trickery to seduce Max using the mindwarp, a tool of illusion, instead of magic. And while there is denial of an intentional mindwarp here, there is evidence to support it mythologically. Loosely speaking, then both Isabel and Tess share part of the Morganna folklore in much the same way that Tess/Liz share the Guinevere folklore. Tess is a composite of Guinevere/Morganna while Liz is a composite of Guinevere, The Grail Knight (Percival/Galahad) and The Grail Maiden. [ 10-06-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
Posted 10-06-2003 08:25 PM by shapeshifter
quote:As one of those who assumed it was FLiz's plan, I have to admit you are right--we don't really know. I think I also assumed it was her plan because she usually is the one to plan things rather than Max, plus, it was what the writers chose to show us. Still, it might not have been her idea originally. Actually--it might have been Serena's, and who knows what her intentions honestly were? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote: quote:Not if we assume that the "protectors" were generally rebellious slaves, with Nicholas being totally mutinous. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Momo, love the Arthurian references. Citrus & Vine, glad to see you. greenglow & everyone else, Great discussion, so glad we can agree to disagree. Too bad the rest of the world hasn't caught on yet. |
Posted 10-09-2003 10:23 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: The shapeshifter Nasedo’s base alien form was the form seen when Nasedo began to be healed. Kal Langley changed to his alien form in order to fly the spaceship. Think of the human base form as the form a shapeshifter used as a basic template from which to convert to other human shapes, while on Earth. Imagine, for example, an alien taking on the form of a chameleon. Then normally, the alien would have a basic coloration of a chameleon. When the alien desired to change, then different colors would transform the chameleon’s appearance. Afterward, the colors would vanish, and again the alien would resume its base chameleon form. Or consider if the alien wanted to live on Earth as a blowfish. Normally, the alien would be flat like other fish. When it desired, the alien could inflate itself and transform into a fat, prickly-shaped fish. Afterward, it would again resume its base fish form, the blowfish. Shapeshifters could make more complex changes that what chameleons and blowfish make. On Earth, each shapeshifter maintained a human shape. Transforming shapes uses energy to maintain the change. Having a base human form was like going into the resting mode, which did not require as much energy to maintain. The human base form was like a default setting that the shapeshifter could return to after transformations. The shapeshifters could transform from one shape to another, without returning to their base human form first. Kal Langley did not shapeshift for a long period of time. The energy that he would have used in transforming himself into different shapes instead went into developing the organs and a sense of taste on his base human form. Base human forms for shapeshifters were individual basic forms from which the shapeshifters could derive other human shapes. Their base human form was the form they returned to at rest, while they lived on Earth. Hope that helps! [ 10-09-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 10-09-2003 11:55 AM by Citrus and Vine
Reggie, I read that you are writing fan fiction. Congratulations!
Nicholas’ overriding goal was to obtain the Granilith. That was Whitaker’s overriding goal, too. Both Whitaker and Nicholas were Skins on Earth, not shapeshifters. Whitaker, a Skin, killed Nasedo. Nicholas, a Skin needed a new husk. Shapeshifters didn’t use husks. Nicholas had once fought with Kivar. Nicholas killed Michael, when he was Rath on Antar. However, Nicholas wound up on Earth in a prepubescent boy’s body. Nicholas had no major status on Earth, except as leader of the Skins. Whitaker went off on her own to Roswell to find the location of the Granilith. She did not keep Nicholas in the loop. Nicholas didn’t know the podsters were in Roswell, until they showed up in Copper Summit, Arizona. Nicholas was not part of the new regime on Antar. Nicholas was on backwater Earth. Nicholas had had eyes for Vilandra, while on Antar. Perhaps that’s why Nicholas was effectively banished from life on Antar. If Nicholas had been able to mindwarp Tess, he would have obtained the Granilith. But Nicholas didn’t get the Granilith’s location. The Granilith remained where it was. Nicholas wasn’t in on the deal to get Max to produce a child with Tess. Nicholas told Lonnie that Kivar wanted Max dead. He promised Lonnie passage home, if she killed Max, if Max didn’t take the deal to return the Granilith. That’s why Lonnie tried to kill Max. She was following Nicholas’ instructions to kill Max, if he did not give up the location of the Granilith. (If Max were dead, he could not produce a child with Tess, so Nicholas was not part of Kivar’s deal with Nasedo. ) Nicholas never mindwarped Tess in New York. Tess was abducted by Lonnie and Rath. They tried to get the location of the Granilith from Tess, but Tess wouldn’t let them. |
Posted 10-09-2003 12:21 PM by Tess Shipper Whore
quote: Yes, but when Tess went back to Antar, Kivar got the granolith. And wasn't that the point of Nikolas's offer in MitC also? I agree about why Nikolas was 'banished' to Earth, that has to be the reason -- Kivar was jealous. |
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Posted 10-09-2003 12:56 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Tess Shipper Whore! Was the Granilith really some kind of religious object, as Lonnie suggested? What significance did it have for the other members of the Summit? Maybe the loss of the Granilith from Kivar's control merely signaled that Kivar wasn't as powerful as he had led everyone to believe. The other members of the Summit hadn't known that Kivar didn't have control of the Granilith. Nicholas wanted the Granilith. Maybe, he was only going to use it for himself, to return to Antar. Maybe Nicholas didn’t like being stuck on Earth in a juvenile boy’s body. Whitaker didn’t like being stuck in a husk. Maybe that’s why she wanted the Granilith. Maybe she wanted to return to Antar, where she wouldn’t need a husk to survive the atmosphere. |
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Posted 10-09-2003 02:20 PM by The Real Momo
While there is nothing in the script to suggest who was responsible for "the plan" implemented by FLiz and FMax, it does refer to "we". It appears to be a joint plan with Serena providing the scientific "method" to implement the plan. I do, however, think it was probably Liz who came up with the idea or the theory. Certainly, Liz was the most obvious "planner" and it's Liz who learns the lessons that "the best laid plans of mice and men oft times goes awry" [excuse the quote if I haven't got it just right since I'm kind of paraphrasing]. Which got me thinking about "Destiny" all over again and "EOTW". I was reading Creative Scripting and came across an interview with Brian Helgeland, who wrote the scripts for The Order and Mystic River. In it, he discusses destiny and made some remarks which I thought were particularly suited to Max and Liz and their destinies. originally quoted by Brian Helgeland in the Sept/Oct 2003 of Creative Screenwriting quote: On one hand, you have Max, a product of where he was born and the environment he was raised in and as much as he tries to deny it, where he comes from has a great deal to do with where he ends up. Max continually tells us that you can create your own destiny, but it's his past that is constantly getting in the way of that. Liz, on the other hand, is doing everything she can to avoid destiny, and yet, there is the sense that she iis heading toward her destiny no matter how much she tries to avoid it. In Liz's case, Madam Vivian takes the place of the Delphi Oracle. She tells Liz: The reading is clear. You marry your true love. You have happiness. This card here? Intimacy, sex. You will not be left wanting. And is a cut there, it's hammered home: All roads have twists and turns, but what I have told you is true. When FMax tells Liz he needs to fall out of love with her, she tries to undo her "preordained" destiny by helping FMax "save the world" and "all their lives". And however successfully it appears she has done just that, the twists and turns of the road lead her back to the "destiny" as foretold by Madam Vivian. Liz marries her "true love". In version 1 of "destiny", Tess leaves , disgusted by Max; in version 2, Tess, branded as Alex's murderer, leaves for Antar with Max's child. History, though changed, leads Liz back to her destiny. In the background, tragedy still looms. Has history changed enough to stave off "the end of the world"? According to the script of "EOTW", the answer is yes. The pod squad history changes when Tess touches Max's shoulder on the bench. Ironically, it seems that Tess's destiny has also been preordained -- Tess leaves. Though the circumstances are different, she still leaves. So why doesn't the end of the world come? Or does it still in 2014? Unanswered questions worthy of lots of debate time. But perhaps, we can take an old superstition -- when you give life, you take it away from some place else. So perhaps Alex 's death is the real sacrifice which "saves the world". And perhaps, his death also was "preordained" by Madam Vivian as she says of his relationship with Isabel: You are a wonderful friend. Her foundation. You will never have a carnal relationship. In a wider and looser interpretation of Alex's tea leaf reading, perhaps "you will never have a carnal relationship" is a veiled premonition of Alex's death. So destiny is something we can't escape, and as aware as Max and Liz are of destiny, as much as they had tried to escape from it, they crash into it. A little Dave Matthews anyone? [ 10-09-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 10-09-2003 04:27 PM by greenglow
Momo: you make some good remarks on your post, but to my view, they simply demonstrate how poorly written and disapointingly shallow and absurd is the script of TEOTW. I think what the script is based on is pretty obvious. After all, their just recycling typical ideas about fate and pre-destinated life. A very old story, been done hundreds of times before. Its so *done* already that is a very bad start to grow a plot in. Plus, this goes against the very basic thing that made Roswell special: the magic, the idea that people can change the way they live, embracing who they are, what they want, side by side with the ones you care about, your friends, your lovers. Thats what Max is talking about when he says "we make our own destiny" and that is a very big part of what Season 1 is about. TEOTW goes against all of that and the worst thing is that its so poorly done that in the end it only end up shifting the "theme" of the show to angst and sorrow. Still, the show could have survived, if it wasn't for CYN and everything after. That *really* made it *all* about angst and sorrow. Oh, and CHADS. I agree that every man and woman is a product of circustance and noone can totaly control is "destiny", but individuals do count, we do have the ability to shape our lifes to a certain extent, and thats what Max, Liz and the rest of the gang are after back in season 1, leaving normal. When "Destiny" is introduced into the plot, this puts the pod-squad and the others to the test. And they choose to live their own lifes. Even with TEOTW, in season 2, until VLV, everyone is slowly pulling away from "Destiny". Even Tess is discovering herself. It was a big mistake to change that. Because in the end I don't think "Departure" is confirming their so-called fate. Not at all. And that's how bad TEOTW is. [ 10-09-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
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Posted 10-09-2003 04:47 PM by Citrus and Vine
I loved The End of The World! It confirmed that nothing short of world annihilation would have kept Max and Liz from being together! It also introduced the theme of sacrifice. It’s easy for couples to stay together, if nothing challenges their desire to be together. But in The End of the World, the test of what people think they should do to better life enters the equation. The episode lets people ponder whether or not they would be willing to give up the love of their lives to lessen the effects of war and total devastation. The End of the World was a heart-breaking episode, but it was also an incredibly well-done, thought-provoking episode. I love it! |
Posted 10-09-2003 05:38 PM by Tess Shipper Whore
quote: 1) Alex was alive in Future Max's reality, he said so. I always believed that Madam Vivian was predicting what would happen before Liz changed the future, because it was later confirmed that Liz and Max would have had sex in a matter of days. And Madam Vivian also said that Maria and Michael's relationship would not endure and that they'd only have 48 hours together, and we all know that didn't exactly come true. So the only explanation is that she meant the other reality, the one that ended in Liz sending Max back to the past in the granolith (Which I think may have been a religious icon on Antar, but only because of how powerful it must have been before it turned into a one-way rocket ship ). 2) I don't think that the end of the world has necessarily been prevented. All that happened was that Future Max disappeared, meaning the sequence of events that led up to his end of the world would no longer happen (i.e., he and Liz couldn't have eloped if they were already living in a van, and in their new reality they got married in Arizona during the day, not Las Vegas at night). But since Tess is gone, again, it stands to reason that the world could still end, even though the sequence of events has been different than what happened in Future Max's reality. This doesn't necessarily mean anything is preordained, just that Max and Liz remain to be selfish jackasses in both realities. (No offense.) --- Future Max's Reality -- Max and Liz get completely wrapped up in each other (no pun intended ), and Max treats Tess increasingly worse, while Michael and Isabel continue to be indifferent to her. Tess gets fed up and leaves. (Not Earth, just Roswell, I believe we are supposed to assume.) Because of this, the world ends approximately.....uh? 13 years later? *shrug* Canon reality -- In order to prevent the end of the world, Liz pretends to sleep with Kyle, breaks Max's heart, and turns an episode that was technically about getting Tess to stay in Roswell into a revolting story about how "Liz sacrificed her love to save the world." *gags* Sorry. Anyway, the major problem with that particular part was, why the hell would anyone expect Tess to want to be with Kyle when he had supposedly gone farther with Liz than even Max had? I know I wouldn't have if it had been me. While it does seem like things are headed in this direction up until HoM, since Max didn't find out that Liz hadn't slept with Kyle until Departure, Tess definitely didn't either. That is essentially why she and Kyle never hooked up. I think that they might have if Liz had just told Max and Tess what was going on. Future Max never said that Max and Tess had to be together. He just said that Max had to stop treating Tess like crap so she wouldn't leave. That was supposed to be the point. But both Future Max and Liz had to be stupid hypocrites, F-Max because he actually told Liz that she had to make Max fall out of love with her, and Liz because she listened to him. And guess what? Nothing changed! A summary of Roswell: Good plot ideas, bad plot executions. |
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Posted 10-09-2003 08:11 PM by shapeshifter
Wow Momo & greenglow. wow. ***shapeshifter hurriedly saves thread in case of server crash or other embodiment of TEOTW*** P.S. Citrus & Vine, I was offered a new job today mining & managing web content, and if I take it, I only hope I can do things as creatively as your post with the images of the blowfish. [ 10-09-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 10-10-2003 10:17 AM by Citrus and Vine
shapeshifter!! Congratulations on the job offer! I enjoyed reading what you wrote, Tess Shipper Whore(or Tess Harding), even though quite a bit of it is very different my views. I especially agree with what you wrote here: quote: [ 10-12-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 10-10-2003 10:19 AM by Citrus and Vine
Roswell, the television series, is a love story about Max and Liz—how they fell in love, how their love was challenged, and how they got back together, after Liz broke up with Max. Roswell is a story that includes the stories of other characters as well. The storyline is set on Earth. There are references to Antar, but the story’s action unfolds on Earth. Tess, along with her erstwhile guardian Nasedo, came to Roswell after Max had fallen in love with Liz. Tess was already in love with Max, before she met him. Tess really didn’t know Max, but she loved him anyway. Tess wanted to be with Max. She wanted Max to return her love. She also wanted to go to Antar, because she was raised to believe that she was Antarian, and not an Earthling. Raised by Nasedo, Tess was unable to form any family bonds with humans. Nasedo kept Tess moving from place to place, so she wouldn’t fall in love with a human or want to stay on Earth. Max, Michael, and Isabel, the other three podsters in Tess’ group, all fell in love with humans. Tess, in contrast, only wanted to be with Max. Nasedo raised Tess to fulfill his deal with Kivar. The deal included Tess betraying Max, Michael, and Isabel to Kivar, the tyrant who had killed the podsters in their previous lives. When Tess arrived in Roswell, the other podsters had already formed strong bonds with each other. Tess was not a part of their group. Tess considered the other podsters to be her family, much to Nasedo’s disappointment. Tess wanted the other podsters to pair up as they had in their previous lives on Antar. She mindwarped Michael, Isabel, and Max into believing things that weren’t real. Max, Michael, and Isabel’s feelings though, were unchanged by Tess’ mindwarps. Each still loved the persons they had loved before the mindwarps. Isabel had initially accepted Tess when she first came to Roswell. However, after Tess, on her own, got Mrs. Evans to tell her all about Isabel’s childhood, Isabel became concerned. Tess’ mindwarps increased Isabel’s suspicions about Tess. Max and Michael did not trust Tess. They looked unfavorably on Isabel’s friendship with Tess. They considered Tess to be an outsider. Tess’ mindwarps had the opposite effect of what she had hoped. All three podsters grew to believe that Tess was Nasedo, a killer shapeshifter. Tess didn’t tell the podster’s the truth about herself. Instead, she drew them to the rock formation that housed their podchamber. Tess had hoped that they would remember their shared past in the chamber. Max and Isabel remembered. Michael accepted that they had been engineered. Tess also didn’t tell the podsters about Nasedo’s deal with Kivar. Tess wanted to keep her options open. She had lived her entire life in secrecy and she continued to maintain that secret. When Nasedo kidnapped Liz, the podsters picked up Tess, in order to get information from her about the kidnapping. Tess was unaware of Nasedo’s plot. As they drove, Tess again emphasized to the podsters that the four of them, Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess were meant to be together. She said,” You can’t deny this, any of you. It’s our destiny. It’s what we were planned for. Even if you don’t want to believe me, you can’t hide from the truth.” Max replied, “It’s not about the four of us right now, it’s about Liz.” Tess responded, “Liz is human. She has nothing to do with us. Max answered, “No, you have nothing to do with us.” Tess tried to get Michael and Isabel’s support. They turned away from Tess. Tess was not part of the group. Tess had attempted to insert herself into their group, but they didn’t know her. They knew that Tess did not understand their concern for Liz’s safety. Tess helped to free Max from the White Room. When Max and Michael returned without Nasedo, Tess was upset. Nasedo was the only guardian she had in her life. Nobody wanted to go back for him. Michael didn’t tell Tess that Nasedo had lingered behind, instead of leaving with Michael and Max. For Tess, it was like the others didn’t care about her at all. If it had been one of the Evans parents who had been left behind, I feel certain the group would have gone back for him or her. Tess wasn’t accepted by the other podsters, until after the message from Max and Isabel’s mother. Max said, “Things will never be the same, but whatever happens, we have to stay together. It's the four of us now.” It wasn’t surprising that Tess wasn’t accepted until then. She had mindwarped them and tried to manipulate them. Max had accepted that Tess was one of them, before his mother’s message, but he didn’t want to be involved with her, until after the message. Even so, Max made it clear that he had no intention of being romantically involved with Tess. Max loved Liz. |
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Posted 10-10-2003 10:22 AM by Citrus and Vine
I think The End of the World points out the finality of war. If everyone is killed, you lose everything. Given the means, would you take preventative action to try to change the outcome you already know is certain in your timeline? Future Max and Future Liz decided that trying to change the past was worth the gamble. They wanted to try to change the course of events that had doomed Earth to destruction, in their timeline. They knew that the enemies who had come to Earth (the Skins) had overrun their world. (The Skins were the enemy that Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother spoke of, in her message to them. She had told the podsters that they needed to learn enough to use their skills, knowledge, and leadership to combat the enemy that had come to Earth, so that they could go to Antar one day to free their allies on Antar.) I think Future Max and Future Liz knew that their cementing had resulted in a lost opportunity to stop the Skins, before the Skins changed into their new husks and became powerful enough to conquer Earth. Maybe they knew that they had not followed through on Whitaker’s notice of death, by going to Copper Summit to investigate. Or maybe they knew that they had not discovered anything about the Skins at that time, when they went there. Possibly they hadn’t gone to Copper Summit in the first timeline, because Max and Liz had grown so close, or possibly they had gone, but didn’t stay long enough to learn anything about the Skins, until a later point in time. In any case, I think that Max and Liz of the first timeline later learned that the Skins had needed new husks to survive. Future Liz and Future Max also knew that Tess’ assets would have been a powerful force in stopping the Skins during the ongoing war that engulfed Earth. That’s why they wanted to keep Tess from leaving Roswell, and that’s why they chose that particular day to try to change things. Future Max went back to the past before Tess left Roswell, before he and Liz became inseparable, and before the Skins converted to their new husks. |
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Posted 10-10-2003 10:23 AM by Citrus and Vine
~~~~~Max and Tess I don’t think Max ever treated Tess badly. Max was in love with Liz, when he first met Tess. After Liz broke up with Max, he wanted to win Liz back, so he did not become involved with Tess, until after Liz insisted that she wanted to be with normal boys. Max was sympathetic to Tess, after Nasedo was killed by the Skin, Whitaker. He saw to it that Tess had a safe home, after a Skin trespassed in Tess’ home. In the second timeline Max took Tess with him to the Summit. He enjoyed the time they spent at the Empire State Building. They also went together to the Statue of Liberty. Max protected Tess, when Rath hit a hockey puck towards her. Max came to Tess’ defense when Rath called Tess names. He held Tess close to him, as they left to return to Rowell. Max grew closer to Tess over time.
I don’t think Kyle and Tess would ever become a couple, given that they were being raised in the same home. They were in a situation in which they were more like siblings than romantic love interests. Growing up, Tess lacked a real family or close friends. She was raised by Nasedo, who didn’t provide her with love or caring. Nasedo only raised Tess to fulfill his deal with Kivar. Kyle and Jim Valenti provided both friendship and family for Tess. In return, she joked around with Kyle, generally making his life miserable in a playful way, which he enjoyed. Tess, Kyle, and Valenti became a family for a while.
I don’t think Michael was indifferent to Tess. Michael and Tess worked together improving Michael’s skills. ``````````Isabel and Tess Isabel partied with Tess and the others at the Crashdown before-school-starts party. Isabel was receptive to Tess’ cries of pain, when Whitaker tortured her. Isabel went to find Tess, abandoning her own surprise birthday party. She defended Tess from Whitaker’s assaults. She rescued Tess. So I would say that Isabel was definitely not “indifferent” to Tess.
Tess stayed in Roswell. She killed many Skins. It remained to be seen whether or not new dangers to Earth would emerge. In any case, a major threat from the Skins had been averted, so Earth was safer. In addition, Liz’s powers might one day be effective in helping to combat new dangers!
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Posted 10-10-2003 05:56 PM by The Real Momo
I really have to say that I don't think Tess was in love with Max. She was in love with "Zan of Antar". Tess had absolutely no idea who Max was. Her initial knowledge of Max only comes from what Tess knew of Zan. I think Tess expected Max to be exactly like Zan, and, of course, Max wasn't. Max was his own person. |
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Posted 10-10-2003 11:22 PM by Citrus and Vine
I think none of us really knows another person, except as we spend time with one another and get to know each other. Some people experience love at first sight. However, such love does not always endure. Some who fall in love at first sight later discover they are no longer in love. Even though love may not endure, what was initially felt is still love. You say you think Tess was in love with Zan of Antar. In part, I think that may be true. However, Tess had few memories of Zan or Antar. Tess and Max spent time together. Max grew to love Tess over time. I think Tess’s love for Max changed, as she saw flashes of Max thinking of Liz. I think it is devastating for people in love with someone to find that the person they love still thinks of a past love. Most people don’t see flashes of what a person is thinking. Still, people are sometimes aware that the people they love continue to think of another. Liz’s love for Max was not strong enough for her to stay with him, after Max announced that all four podsters, including Tess, had to stick together now. It was too difficult for Liz to face the possibility that Max might one day remember Tess and love her. Liz continued to love Max, but she was unwilling to reciprocate his love. Liz effectively ended her romance with Max. Max loved Liz long before Liz even noticed him. Even though they didn’t have a personal relationship, Max had loved her. It could be argued that Max didn’t really love Liz, because he didn’t really know her. Some would say Max only loved who he thought Liz was, before Liz became aware of his love. The same could be said of Tess—that she didn’t really love Max, before she met him, because she didn’t really know him. However, I think love is love. I think feelings of love are worthwhile and important, even if the person we love turns out not to be who we thought the person was. Tess’ love for Max changed as she noticed that Max continued to think of Liz, even when he was with Tess. Liz’s love for Max changed, too, when she feared Max might remember Tess and love Tess instead of her. Sometimes, it is worthwhile to see love through. Enduring love works past doubts and fears. Talking things through with the person you love can sometimes work wonders! |
Posted 10-11-2003 11:00 AM by shapeshifter
quote:I'd never thought of it like that before; I'd always assumed she did love him totally, but that it seemed hopeless to her. After all, having experienced Max's powers, how could a small town human girl expect to compete with the powers of alien destiny? Inspite of flashes and glowing hickeys, she had not yet realized the extent of her own new powers--or their own love and destiny.
quote:Especially after VLV, I had liked to imagine that Max's original attraction to Liz was in some way triggered by an alien memory of the future with her. This is not substantiated in the show, but it doesn't conflict with anything we've seen either. [ 10-11-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 10-11-2003 05:05 PM by greenglow
Hi! Busy thread I'm with Shapeshifter here. I also think Liz left Max because she felt she coudn't compete with his alien destiny, that she would hold him back, that there was no place for her in his new life. On Kyle and Tess: I don't agree with that reading, that Kyle was "family" to Tess (on the sense that he wasn't a possible object of desire). Living under the same roof isn't enough to kill atraction between two persons... In late S1 Tess is dating Kyle to make the other podsters aware of her, and in S2 the "screwball comedy" and the cumplicity between them are not, as post-VLV episodes try to state just "sibling-like". They aren't written, and especially, performed, as such (and don't forget the way actors perform a scene is very important, is not just the words that count). If Kyle was in need of a "sibling", the obvious person to develop it with is Maria. Their parents are dating! In fact, its so obvious, that it always puzzled me that it hasn't been explored in the show! |
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Posted 10-11-2003 07:47 PM by Citrus and Vine
Kyle and Tess didn’t date each other in Season One. They didn’t date in Season Two either, except to go to the prom. At the café, before the prom, Maria asked Kyle about his relationship with Tess. Kyle replied that Tess was hot, but that he felt really resistant for some reason he couldn’t quite put his finger on. Later, at the prom, Malamoot began making sexual comments about Tess. Kyle became upset. He grabbed Malamoot by the collar and said, “Dont you ever talk about my sister like that!” Kyle and Maria did not live in the same household, so they had no reason to feel like siblings. Both Kyle and Maria disapproved of their parents dating and making out with each other. They found it embarrassing. I doubt either of them wanted their parents to marry. Kyle and Tess, on the other hand, lived together in the same household. Kids in the same household, even if they are not related genetically, do not usually see each other as love interests. They know too much about each other to feel mystery or sexual attraction for each other. One evening, after Tess first moved in, Kyle entertained the idea of getting together with Tess sexually. Nothing came of it, though. The longer they lived in the same household, the less sexual interest they had for one another. Kyle grew to feel protective towards Tess. Kyle had invited Tess to the prom, but while there, he realized that his feelings for her were feelings of a brother for a sister. Tess was relieved to hear that’s what he felt for her. Tess was not romantically interested in Kyle. She only made overtures towards him once, out of exasperation over Max’s lack of interest in her. Tess was romantically in love with Max, not Kyle. I loved the scene in which Tess uses the remote control to make Kyle think he has developed alien powers! [ 10-11-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 10-11-2003 08:31 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: ITA, if Liz didn't totally love Max I couldn't see her bothering and wasting her time to help him, even after all the crap that she went through. If Liz didn't love Max, then I would love to see how she would've treated him if she had hated him. Liz was the same exact person that Max supposedly fell in love with or had been attracted to since they were in the third grade. The only change that I saw in Liz was she had to put up with a lot of crap and then alien changes started to take affect from Max healing her. Now, Max changed totally from the lovable guy in S1 to in my eyes the unlovable guy in S2 and S3. I was still waiting for the "it's you that I trust, it's you that I have faith in" Max to show up and he never did. But, I guess it doesn't matter because it was FMax that told Liz that lie and since PMax didn't know he can't be held responsible. But, since FMax was still a Max supposedly in love with a Liz I definitely hold him responsible for his actions. Liz was no saint and I make no excuses for her actions or the lobotomy that she suffered especially in S3. |
Posted 10-12-2003 07:23 AM by shapeshifter
quote:I do know of a family, very active in their church, who took in temporarily homeless people on a number of occasions, including a mother and teenage daughter; the daughter later became pregnant by my friend's teenage son. I'm not sure if they were still living together at that time, though. quote:Whoops! You've forgotten their "date" to the library? Or does that not count as a "date"? (My kids look at me as if I've grown a second head if I ask if they are going on a "date," so I guess I'm not up on the current vernacular.)Regardless, it could imply other, off-screen "dates," and Kyle definitely tried to kiss Tess at the library. quote:I assumed Tess had mindwarped Kyle to think of her in a brother-to-sister way. Recall the look on Kyle's face after he blurts out that remark to Malamood. I took his look to be one of puzzlement, wondering from where that sentiment had arisen. It seems if his brotherly feelings had arisen naturally, the script would have reflected it with Kyle's reply being something more concrete, like, say, "Living in the same house with her has dispelled a lot of her feminine mystique for me." Instead, the writers chose to have Kyle puzzled about his new, brotherly feelings. I'm glad y'all brought this up, because I always wondered if my interpretation of it being a mindwarp was correct. I know a lot of things have been written off as mindwarps by the fans erroneously. For instance, many wished the baby was a mindwarp, and it did turn out that the baby's distress was a mindwarp--but not the baby's existence. [ 10-12-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 10-12-2003 04:19 PM by greenglow
Although many fans seem to have forgot this, Tess is dating Kyle in S1. And there isn't only the library scene. Before that scene, Kyle and Tess are seen together, then Liz go to Kyle to know what is going on, he tells her he is dating Tess ("you can't beat a blond") and she babbles something abou Tess being a "men-eater" ("she gives them hope and then dump them") with Kyle going "it takes one to know one" So, we know they are dating, even if there is no actual scenes of the events other then dialogs, glimpses and the library. The sibling-stuff. I agree with Shapeshifter, given to HOM being the start of "Tess is the Evil Mindwarping Hell Bitch" parede of non-sense, crap and CHADS, I find that its very likely that Tess mindwarped Kyle to think he only loves her as "a sister". I base this opinion on the exact same terms as Shapeshifter, plus Kyle is always numb, seems like on drugs, and Tess' sigh of relief in Kyle's back when he tells her that she is a sister to him. Very suspect, especially because later Tess mind-erases memories from him relating Alex. She has no problem mind-warping Kyle, she could have done it before. On Maria and Kyle -- its true that they first disaprove their parents romantic affair, but later they no longer seem concerned. In fact, the scene where Sean is introduced into the story, we find Kyle and Maria talking like close friends. Kyle even goes "any cousins for me?" Anyway, I think our major difference is that to my view until VLV there was a certain plot and from HOM to Departure this plot is substituted with a completely different plot. The differences are very notorious, and changing the nature of Tess and Kyle relationship is one of the keynotes of that change. The others are pulling apart Liz and Max that until HOM are in the process of getting back together; turning Max into the control-freak manipulative irresponsible bipolar desperado, Alex's death and the pregnancy. But this is just Roswell writers going insane... I think thats why so many fans, including me, can't accept this plotline. It's because it is completely inconsistent with previous events. We can't relate with the characters of late S2 and S3. They are no longer the same. If S1 and S2 before HOM are compatible, late S2 and S3 feel like an AU!! Let's face it, if S1 Max was the late S2 and S3 Max, and Liz was late S2 manipulative Liz or S3 doormat Liz or S3 I have alien powers Liz or if S1 Isabel was the S3 housewife or if S1 Maria was S3 self-centered missy or let's put Tess to deathvote Maria or S1 and S2 Kyle was S3 doormat Kyle most of us would never take interest on Roswell at all. We wouldn't even be here having this conversation. Or reading fanfics. Or craving for DVDs or Roswell movies... [ 10-12-2003: Message edited greenglow ] [ 10-12-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
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Posted 10-12-2003 09:02 PM by Citrus and Vine
reply to shapeshifter, greenglow, and anyone interested! Kyle and Tess didn't date in Season One Tess arranged to have Kyle go with her to the Public Library, in order to reveal the book to Max. Max and Liz were waiting for Tess at the library, because Tess had arranged for Liz and Max to see her talking to Kyle at school. Tess used Kyle as bait to get Max and Liz to go to the Public Library that night. Liz talked to Kyle at the café, after Max and she saw Tess and Kyle taking together at school. Liz lied about the reason she was warning Kyle. (Liz was afraid Tess was dangerous. At the time, the other three podsters and their friends thought that Tess was Nesadeo.). In her conversation with Kyle, Liz learned that Kyle would be going to the Public Library with Tess that evening. Tess wasn’t dating Kyle. Tess was using Kyle to achieve what she wanted, just as Liz used Sean to get what she wanted, when they broke into the school together. Liz and Sean weren’t on a date, then. Neither were Kyle and Tess on a date, when they went the library. Kyle called termed the meeting a “study-date”, but they didn’t study. As soon as Tess took the book from the wall, she told Kyle, “Time to go.” What Kyle thought was going to be a study date had just ended. Tess only used Kyle to reveal the book to Max. Once Max saw the book, Tess left. Kyle thought Tess was a knockout, when he went to the Public Library with her. But after he realized that Tess wasn’t interested in him, his feelings about her changed. When he awoke to find Tess sleeping on the family couch one morning, much later, Kyle said, “What the hell are you doing here?” Kyle was not happy to see her. She had used him that evening at the library. Tess had no romantic interest in Kyle. Tess was only using Kyle, during the time she talked to Kyle at school and later that night when she went with him to the Public Library. Tess and Kyle did not date in Season One. [ 10-12-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 10-12-2003 10:27 PM by Citrus and Vine
When Liz left Max at the cave, she gave “destiny” for her reason for leaving him. However, the real reason Liz left Max then, was because Max accepted Tess as part of his future. When the fortuneteller told Liz that Max chose love (not destiny, as Liz had feared), Liz began to believe that she and Max would be together. Until then, Liz did not accept that Max had already chosen to love Liz, not Tess, at the cave. Until Liz heard the fortuneteller’s words, Liz had rejected all Max’s efforts to get back together with her. Liz wanted Max to reject Tess. So he did. He spent as little time as possible with Tess. But even that was not enough for Liz. Liz didn’t want Max to be with Tess at all. She didn’t want Tess healing Max. She didn’t want Max to walk Tess home, after Nasedo died. Liz wanted Tess out of Max’s life. Otherwise, she did not want to be with Max. In the first timeline, Max was able to convince Liz that Tess was out of his life, by repeatedly calling Liz; by repeatedly trying to talk to her; by spending as little time as possible with Tess; by explaining to Liz on the sidewalk that he had no feelings for Tess and that he told Tess that; by explaining to Liz that things weren’t about Tess, they were about Liz and him; by explaining that all he cared about was Liz and that he was coming for her; by repeatedly coming to Liz’s window and telling her that he wanted to be with her; by spending a week learning a song and serenading Liz beneath her balcony; by tossing Liz a bouquet of red roses that he changed to white in mid-air; by buying tickets to a Gomez concert for them, and by cementing with her. In my opinion, Liz was wrong to put Max through all that before letting him get back together with her. If Liz loved Max completely, she would not have made her love for him conditional on keeping Tess out of his life. Max wasn’t romantically involved with Tess when Liz left Max. Liz should have trusted Max and his love for her, but she didn’t. Liz wouldn’t let Max into her life again, until she heard the fortuneteller’s words, and until Max proved to her that he only loved her.
Liz didn’t leave Max because of “a whole other destiny for Max, one that didn’t include Liz”. Max wanted Liz in his life. She didn’t leave because she thought it was “hopeless” to stay with Max. She left, because she was fearful of Max’s unremembered past with Tess, when they were once alive together on another planet. She left because she couldn’t handle Max including Tess in their lives now and in the future. If you love someone completely, you trust them. If you have worries and fears about the present and the future, you talk things out with them. If you love someone, you listen to them with an open mind, when they want to talk to you. If you love someone, you work things out together. You find mutually acceptable solutions to your problems. If you love someone, you include them in your life. Liz shut Max out of her life. She did not completely love or trust Max. She loved Max, but she feared Max would leave her. Liz’s love for Max was conditioned on Max keeping Tess out of his life and on Max only doing things with Liz. Liz did not want Max to have a working relationship with Tess, because she feared that Max might remember his past existence with Tess. She feared that Max might love Tess instead of her. Liz did not trust Max to continue loving her, instead of Tess. Liz excluded Max from her life. Liz did not completely love and trust Max, when she left him at the cave. Liz was not strong enough to continue to be with Max to meet the future together with him. Liz let her personal fears override her love for Max. |
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Posted 10-12-2003 11:01 PM by Citrus and Vine
````` HAPPY BIRTHDAY, ZR!!! [ 10-12-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 10-13-2003 02:18 PM by The Real Momo
originally posted by Citrus and Vine
quote: We cannot entirely place blame on Liz and say, oh, poor Max, Liz deserted him. We seem to keep forgetting that Liz had reason to mistrust her relationship with Max because of Max's relationship with Tess in S1. Let's not forget Liz caught Max kissing Tess redhanded only moments after he declared his love only for Liz and that he didn't have feelings for Tess. This is when she begins to doubt Max's love for her and from Liz's point of view this kiss made Max romantically linked with Tess. This is an act of betrayal. And when Tess is declared as Max's young bride in the mom-o-gram, Tess is no longer an interloper, but Max's wife from a past life, a wife who has been engineered to help him in this life and as such, Liz begins to feel the outsider. When Max declares, it's the "four of us now", Liz interprets this as confirmation that Max has chosen Tess and his "Destiny," rightfully or wrongly. Liz feels that Max is not hers to pursue. Liz feels excluded. It is only then that she removes herself and "walks away." But while Liz does walk away, "walking away" is something she neither wants or really accepts because her love for Max is that strong. [ 10-13-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
Posted 10-13-2003 03:55 PM by greenglow
quote: Citrus, the point is it was a date to Kyle. Tess was playing games to make the podsters come in the open, I also said that, but to Kyle it was a date... On the rest, I already presented my point, if you don't read it the same way, it's ok... but you are putting aside things that are refered to in dialogs but are not putted on scene like they never happened... lamptrimming didn't start because the fans got dilusiunal, you know? There are things to be read on the dialogs, on the feelings the actors put into the way they play scenes. Kyle reacted on Tess that morning because he is now aware she is alien, and when S2 begins, he is not confortable with the "aliens". Accepting to be part of the alien-secret comes to Kyle when his feelings for Tess unveil. Like I said, if you still prefer the plot-change that scraped away that part of the story, its fine. It really is. But there is *a lot* of things that doesn't make sense in S2 if we choose to see everything in the that light (Hey! Are you wearing one of those RA hat? ). |
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Posted 10-13-2003 04:49 PM by The Real Momo
originally posted by Citrus and Vine:
quote: While this, I hope, is true of adults, at 16, 17, and even 18, Max and Liz are in the process of learning the gives and takes associated with mature love. We can't expect them to be perfect people. They are growing into adulthood. They will make some mistakes. They will be hurt and hurt by each other. It's how they survive these mistakes that reveal what direction their relationship takes and the depth and breath of that love. Given their mistakes, I believe we do see evidences that their "love" will survive. Liz, in spite of her reservations about Tess and the baby, still wants a relationship with Max and we do see her starting to deal with it on a mature level. In Ch-Ch-Changes, there's the hurt she inflicts on Max when she says asks Max how he could sleep with Tess and the reminder of how his search for his son affects her. This is as deeply wounding to Max as it had been for Liz to learn about the baby. While all this is said in an emotionally turbulent time for Liz, we also have the hint of regret Liz feels after saying it. In her conversation to Kyle, she questions how she could face Max after saying such horrible things ... even though that's how she felt. Later, she even apologizes to Max. So while Tess is still an issue, Liz is beginning to learn to deal with it in baby steps. Maria really is the one who slams it home in 4 Aliens and a Baby -- get over it and forgive or let Max go. It's not an easy thing to do, but Maria really is the one who enlightens Liz as to what's important. This, I know, is totally simplifying their relationship, but the point that both Max and Liz , having gone through all the crap, survive and still love each other in the end. |
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Posted 10-13-2003 07:32 PM by Citrus and Vine
From Momo: quote: Momo, Max didn’t kiss Tess in Season One. Tess mindwarped Max inside the CrashDown Café and in the classroom into visualizing himself kissing Tess passionately. Max didn’t love Tess. He was sure of his love for Liz. Liz initially believed that Max had kissed Tess. Later, she thought Tess (who she and the others thought was Nasedo) caused Max to kiss her. Still later, Liz learned that Tess had created the kissing illusion in the rain. Liz learned the truth while she was seated in the jeep with Tess. Tess simultaneously mindwarped two agents into believing that Pierce was giving them instructions to go to Hondo. That’s when Liz learned that the kiss in the rain had been a mindwarp performed by Tess on Max and Liz simultaneously. She knew Max had not kissed Tess. Max had never betrayed Liz, and Liz knew it, before the message from Max and Isabel’s Antarian mother. Max never kissed Tess in Season One, before Liz left him. Liz knew that Max hadn’t kissed Tess. Liz also knew that Max wanted to be with her [Liz], and that he loved her only. Max said to Liz, “Liz, when I was in that room, and they did what they did to me. You're what kept me alive. The thought of you. The way your eyes look into mine. Your smile. The touch of your skin. Your lips. Knowing you has made me human. Whether I die tomorrow or fifty years from now, my destiny is the same: it's you. I want to be with you, Liz. I love you.” After the message from his mom, Max turned to Isabel and Michael and said, “Things will never be the same, but whatever happens, we have to stay together.” Max then turned to Tess and said, “It's the four of us now.” Max was accepting Tess as part of things. Tess then said,”I knew this was meant to be.” Max, however, did not want to be with Tess on a personal, romantic level. Max loved Liz, not Tess. He pushed Tess aside, and went to Liz. He said to her, “Look, everything I told you before is still true.” So Liz knew that Max chose her, not Tess, as his destiny. Max wanted to be with Liz. However, Liz couldn’t handle being with Max, until after Max proved in many ways the he only loved her and only wanted to be with her. Liz did desert Max. She wouldn’t talk to him. She wouldn’t return his messages. She left Max without even trying to work things out. That’s what desertion is, leaving and not communicating. Liz dumped Max. Max was committed to his relationship with Liz. Liz did not want to be with Max, as long as Tess was part of Max’s life. Liz was afraid Max might one day love Tess, instead of her. |
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Posted 10-13-2003 07:58 PM by Reggie
Greenglow: (Hey! Are you wearing one of those RA hat? ). Huh? Are you talking about me? (I'm getting a lot of hostility from some folks I thought were friends, on another thread. Color me paranoid... ) |
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Posted 10-13-2003 08:13 PM by Citrus and Vine
Reggie, hostility is such a bummer. Sorry for your pain. IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/wipout/tn_wipe244_jpg.jpg |
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Posted 10-13-2003 09:02 PM by Citrus and Vine
Dating someone implies going on romantic get-togethers with another person. Tess and Kyle talked together once at school. They went together to the library that night. Tess got a book, and then they left. Tess was using Kyle, not dating him. To me, Tess did not date Kyle in Season One. To me, Kyle did not date Tess in Season One, either. To me, if you date someone, you go together to places on multiple occasions for the purpose of romance. One trip to the library to get a book and then leave does not constitute dating to me. I don’t think it constituted dating for Kyle, either! Kyle was sexually attracted to Tess, when he talked to Tess at school, and then went with her to the Public Library. But they didn’t date each other in Season One. Tess and Kyle didn't become a couple, because Tess loved Max, not Kyle. Tess wanted to go to Antar, not stay on Earth. [ 10-13-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 10-13-2003 09:44 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
If Liz did not completely love or trust Max, then Max did not completely love or trust Liz either. Max chose his alien non-wife over Liz and even slept with her. So, Liz was right in her so-called fears and insecurities when it came to Max and Tess. Liz should have never married Max because two people not completely in love or trust each other are fooling themselves and could never truly be happy. Liz should have given Max up for good and went on with her life. The alien powers that Liz first exhibited was because of her being angry and upset with Max because of his relationship with Tess. Since Liz did not completely love and trust Max she should have went on with her life and not have wasted her time marrying Max and leaving Roswell in a van. Liz could have gotten her life together and continued on with her education by attending college and becoming a Molecular Bioliogist like she wanted to. But, just because of Liz's involvement with Max the FBI was after her also so she had to leave her life in Roswell. Max was only ever completely in love with his alien non-wife Tess and was only waiting until she came to town to be truly happy because he remembered her from his past life. After all, Tess was always the better girl for Max because she was always such a truthful, honest, and loyal person to Max since her arrival in Roswell. Also, since Tess was the same species as Max she was better qualified since Max chose her over Liz. Max should have stood by Tess even after finding out that she murdered Alex. Tess was carrying Max's son, the heir to the Antar throne and she was completely in love and so trustworthy with Max. Max should have left in the Granilith with Tess and his son and went on with his alien life on Antar. Max chose Tess because he completely loved and trusted her so he should have left the planet with her and lived happily ever after on Antar. Liz was no good for Max because what could a human girl do to help an alien king with his planet and to fight evil aliens on Earth? All the lies that Max ever told Liz from the beginning since her shooting just made him look weak. I used to believe Max meant what he said to Liz, but Max proved that he was a liar from the very beginning. Liz was better off without Max in the end because even all his "Liz, meeting someone, someone like me, it attracted me. I admit that. It was something I had to find out about, and now I'm over it." meant nothing. Liz was just a replacement for his true love Tess. It's such a shame the show ended because I was hoping I would see Liz come to realize that she never had to be second best to a guy that never truly loved or trusted her in the first place. |
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Posted 10-13-2003 11:09 PM by Citrus and Vine
Max loved Liz and trusted her. He believed her when she said she only wanted to be with normal boys and not with him. Liz convinced Max that she did not want ever again to have a romantic relationship with Max. She made certain that Max believed she slept with Kyle. Liz did all she could to make Max believe they could never be together. Max loved and trusted Liz completely. He believed she really did not want to be with him or share her life with him. Liz ended any possibility of their getting back together. Liz did not want to give Max up for good. She had given Max up, so that Tess would stay and work with Max. Liz continued to love Max. That’s why she agreed to date him, after Tess attempted to betray Max, and after Tess left Earth. Liz felt ready to try getting back together with Max. It’s true that when couples break up, they may break up again, if they get back together. However, even first time relationships don’t always succeed. I think it is fine to decide what would be right for you, but for others, trying love again with someone they broke up with before, can lead to a lifelong, loving, happy, and successful relationship! People make mistakes. Learning from mistakes betters our understanding of things. Liz learned she was happier with Max, than without him. Max always knew he was happier with Liz. If Liz had given Max any encouragement that she might one day be willing to share her life with him, I doubt Max would ever have gotten together with Tess. ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ Liz broke up with Max. Over time, Max began doing things with Tess. He began to love Tess. Max still loved Liz, but he believed Liz only wanted him as a friend at most. Max had few memories of Tess from their lives on Antar. He loved Tess, because of who he thought she was in this life. He thought she loved him, and accepted him. Max trusted Tess. He did not try to hide his emotions from her. That’s how Tess saw flashes of Max thinking of Liz. (Liz had been able to conceal her feelings for Max for the most part. When he touched Liz’s arm outside the café, Liz felt flashes, but she kept the flashes from Max. When Max kissed Liz in Whitaker’s office, though, he saw flashes and knew she had feelings for him.) Max didn’t defend Tess, when it was revealed that she had caused Alex’s death. Even though Max loved Tess, he knew something was seriously wrong in their relationship, when he heard about Alex and the mindwarping. Max hadn’t suspected that Tess got the book translated. That was something she should have told Max. Their child was dying (supposedly), yet Tess never mentioned that she knew how to go to Antar. Tess had been lying to Max. She was being deceitful for a reason. Max had to know the reason. That’s why he didn’t blindly defend her. Tess didn’t want to tell Max the reason. She didn’t want Max to know the truth. The truth was that Tess intended to betray Max, Michael, and Isabel to Kivar. Tess had once loved Max. I think she had once hoped that they would return to Antar and regain Zan’s throne. Max continued to think of Liz, while he was with Tess. Tess let her jealousy of Max’s past with Liz destroy the love she once felt for Max. Max was right not to blindly defend Tess, when he learned that she caused Alex’s death. He was right, because if he had gone to Antar with Tess, he would have been killed by Kivar. Tess was no longer in love with Max, when she went to the Granilith chamber to go to Antar. Max and Tess’ love didn’t work out. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ quote: Liz helped Max. She was instrumental in finding the orb. Without the orb that Liz helped locate, they never would have known about the enemies (the Skins) that Max’s mom talked about, the enemies who were already on Earth. Without Liz, they never would have known to go to Copper Summit. (Liz worked for Whitaker, a Skin. It was a letter found in Whitaker’s office that led them to find the other Skins.) Going to Copper Summit resulted in destroying the Skins’ husks, which stopped the Skins from overtaking Earth in the future. Tess was important, too. She killed many Skins. She saved Max, Michael, and Isabel’s lives. Both Tess and Liz were important for the survival of Earth from its enemies. As far as Antar was concerned, though, Tess was going to support Kivar, their enemy. So she really wasn’t going to help free Antar from the despot ruler Kivar. Thank you, ~*Sonia E.*~, very much. Even though we have different ideas, I enjoy thinking about what you wrote! [ 10-13-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 10-14-2003 12:01 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
Max was one lucky alien human/hybrid guy or should I say king to be in love with two girls, one being his alien non-wife and the other a human girl. So, when one of his two loves doesn't act right or follows his rules he can just go to the other one. Boy, it must be nice to be an alien king, have a past life and can have your cake and eat it too!! Still Liz was better off without Max in the end and just because Max settled for second best does not mean that Liz will have a lifelong, loving, happy and successful relationship with him. Now, if the show would have continued then I could have drawn my own conclusions on Liz's happiness. But, thank you Citrus and Vine even though our views are different, I also enjoy reading your posts. |
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Posted 10-14-2003 01:48 AM by ukspacegirl
Hi again! Sonia, I agree with 98% of what you said in your first post. Citrus and Vine - (sigh) if TPTB had left in deleted scenes, so many things would make much more sense. You've read the deleted scenes from Departure? Where Tess is losing her powers, where she knows Max is thinking about Liz (and is devastated) - and she tries to persuade Max to stay on Earth.. All of those things indicate that Tess continued to have feelings for Max, to the extent that she wanted him to be safe, and not handed over to Kivar. I never doubted that Tess loved Max, absolutely. He was her one love; she never wanted anyone else. I hated the way Max dumped her instantaneously, and left her to an unknown fate on another planet. I think Roswell would have been much more interesting if Max and Tess had travelled to Antar, and she'd tried to 'bust him out'! Could have been fun. (It's such a shame that there are so many 'might have beens!) Because going by what was screened, there are so many unanswered questions. IMO.
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Posted 10-14-2003 09:48 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hi ukspacegirl! quote: I have read some unused scenes. However, in my opinion, none of them are needed to understand the show. (It would be fun to see more of Roswell, of course!) I think that the scene in The Departure in which Tess asked Max if he is sure he wants to go to Antar showed that Tess cared about Max, and was having second thoughts about going to Antar. (Tess also cared about Valenti, and his kindness to her. She was going to miss him. She cared about Kyle, too. She didn’t kill Kyle to make certain that her mindwarp of him wouldn’t come undone, even though her mindwarp of him had come undone before.) Max said yes [he wanted to go to Antar], and then kissed her, full on the mouth. Tess saw flashes of Max kissing Liz. It had been his goodbye kiss to Liz, but Tess didn’t see it that way. For Tess, it was a further betrayal of her love for him. After the kiss, Tess remonstrated Max for having kissed Liz. Then she said, “Don't worry, you won't remember her where we're going.” Tess’ words show that any doubts about Max going to Antar were now quashed with the realization that even as they were leaving together, and kissing each other, Max still thought of Liz.
Max left Tess at home to go with Liz to stop Leanna. The audience can surmise that Tess didn’t go with Max to stop Leanna, because of the difficulty of her pregnancy. [The unused scene is unnecessary, because the audience sees Tess is depleted by the pregnancy.] Tess, though, really didn’t want Max to go to stop Leanna, because it was Tess, not Leanna, who had the book translated. Tess didn’t want Max to think about or care about Liz at all. (Likewise, Liz didn’t want Max to think about or care about or do things with Tess.) It is human nature to be unhappy, if the person you love continues to be involved in any way with his or her past love. I think Tess’ loss of power is implied by the difficulty of her pregnancy. However, even if she still retained all of her powers, she still couldn’t mindwarp everyone into forgetting what they knew, because they were on their guard against her mindwarping them, when they talked to Tess about Alex, his death, and the reasons she did what she did. Tess could no longer lie to them, because she knew they were onto her. ~~~~~~~~~~
quote: Even without the scenes that weren’t used, the audience knows that Tess continued to have feelings for Max. However, they were feelings of anger and betrayal. Tess no longer loved Max, or she wouldn’t have planned to carry out Nasedo’s deal with Kivar. If Tess still loved Max, as she once did, she would have told him she had the crystal that worked the Granilith. She would have told him about translating the book. (Or she would have discussed with him how they should get the book translated.) She would not have been willing to turn Max, his sister, and his friend over to Kivar, the enemy who had once killed them all. I love Roswell the way it is! The action in the episodes is tight and suspenseful. The show moves forward with the characters, revealing things as the characters learn things. Each episode is exciting and entertaining. Each builds on past episodes and leads into the following episodes. I think the unused jeep scene with Max, Michael, and Isabel would have been enjoyable, but the scene wasn’t really essential to the story. Again, I would love seeing more of Roswell—past episodes, unused or unwanted scenes, new episodes—anything and everything! I think there were lots of clues within the episode The Departure to indicate that Tess had intended to betray Max, because he still cared about Liz. I don’t think any of the scenes discussed as being omitted would have improved on what the authors wanted the audience to know about Tess. I think that Tess was a person of depth, who lived in fear for her life, because Nasedo raised her to believe that she was continually hunted by the Special Unit. The Special Unit knew nothing about Tess. Nasedo just kept Tess in fear, so he could control her and get her to betray Max, Michael, and Isabel to Kivar, as well as produce a child with Max. Tess had begun to think for herself, while Nasedo was still alive. She wanted to be loved and accepted by the other podsters. She thought of them as her family. She wanted a romantic relationship with Max. For a while, she stopped thinking about betraying her fellow podsters. Max loved Tess, but he had once been in love with Liz. He couldn’t stay in love with Liz, because Liz refused to share her life with him. Max continued to love Liz as a friend, because his relationship with her had meant so much to him. Max respected Liz, and wanted her and the others to be safe, when he left. That’s why he wanted to handle the Leanna problem before he left Roswell. Max thought he had the future ahead of him to be with Tess on Antar, far distant from Earth. He wanted to protect Liz, the Valentis, and Maria before he left, because they all had done so much for him. He acted to protect them before he left, out of gratitude for what they had done. Max was not in love with Liz, when he began to love Tess. Max had no hope of getting back together with Liz (until after Liz let him know that she wanted to be with him). Max’s romance with Liz had ended, when Max began doing things with Tess. I think Max and Tess could have had a long, happy life together, if she had not betrayed him, by translating the book without his knowledge, causing Alex’s death and not telling him, and planning to hand him over to Kivar. Max had to let Tess go to Antar by herself. Max would have been killed, if he went with her. Tess could have stayed on Earth to try to work things out with Max, but she preferred to go to Antar. Tess could have told Max the baby didn’t need to go to Antar to live, but, again, Tess wanted to go Antar. Tess was intense and affectionate. She loved Max, and she showed it. Their love was tender and caring. They might have had a wonderful life together, if Tess had been able to appreciate Max’s love for her. If Tess had understood that it takes time to get past thinking about a former love, then she might not have felt betrayed by Max’s thoughts of Liz. She might not have tried to turn Max over to Kivar, in order to secure a safe home for herself on Antar. Thanks, ukspacegirl! I enjoyed talking with you! [ 10-14-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 10-14-2003 10:58 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Again, that says a lot about Max's character and how he never loved and trusted Liz in the first place. So, just because Liz let Max know that she wanted to be with him, Max all of a sudden was completely in love and trusted her again. Tess was no longer in the picture or available so Max can now go to his human girl because she was still on Earth. No wonder Max was killed on Antar with his wishy washy personality and decision making I could see why he failed as a king. Why in the world would Max want Liz after his great love Tess? It still boggles my mind why he would want to marry Liz after everything she supposedly put him through? As I said before Max was weak and all the things that Max ever told Liz in S1 and S2 were a bunch of lies. Yes, he saved Liz's life but after everything she went through he just should have let her die and saved himself some time and energy. I don't care how much a person hurts or lies to you, you just don't fall out of love with one or the other because the one you supposedly want is not available. Like I said before Max wanted to have his cake and eat it too and Liz deserved so much better. I really wish Max would have went to Antar with Tess and they had a long, happy, and wonderful life together because he definitely didn't deserve to be in the same space as Liz. I mean, Liz only did things to hurt Max and not for his own good right? So why would Max want a girl that continually betrayed and hurt him? Why would he want to make that girl his wife and never be truly happy and content? If someone can answer that question honestly I would love to know the answer. [ 10-15-2003: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
Posted 10-14-2003 04:09 PM by greenglow
quote: No, Reggie! funny entrance, though
quote: Oh, I'm sorry to ear that [ 10-14-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
Posted 10-14-2003 04:11 PM by greenglow
quote: Hey! You are wearing one of those hats! You really are! |
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Posted 10-14-2003 09:43 PM by shapeshifter
When Season One was airing, my older 2 daughters always looked at me like I was an alien if I used the words "date" or "going steady." "Oh, Mom!" they would exclaim, "Nobody 'dates' or 'goes steady' anymore. They 'go out.'" |
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Posted 10-15-2003 09:24 PM by Citrus and Vine
I think it says a lot about Max’s character that he was able to find love again with Liz, after Tess betrayed his love. I think it says that Max was able distinguish between Liz’s decision not be with him romantically, because she couldn’t handle it, and Tess’ decision to end her relationship with Max permanently, by way of handing him over to Kivar, his enemy. Tess betrayed Max. When someone is betrayed in the way Max was betrayed by Tess, love for that person can end very quickly. Tess was responsible for Alex’s death. Tess conceived a child by Max for Kivar, the person who had killed Max, Isabel, Michael, and Tess in their previous lives. Tess planned to hand over Max, Isabel, and Michael to Kivar, when she reached Antar. Tess’ betrayal was so egregious, that Max had wanted to kill her on the spot. Max stopped loving Tess entirely. Loving someone is an act in progress. Returning to Liz was what made Max happy. He loved Liz. He enjoyed spending time with her. She had saved his life and Isabel’s life, by running to the cave in time to warn them about Tess. Liz had been a significant part of Max’s life. Max trusted Liz, even after she ended their romance. She continued to help Max and the other podsters. Max trusted Liz, because she didn’t betray him, the way Tess had. When Max and Liz were both ready to start seeing each other again, they started going out together, a second time. Dating, going out together, spending time together, and doing things together are good ways for couples to learn how they really feel about each other. It takes time to find out if people are right for each other. Sometimes, people love someone, and things work out for them the first time. Sometimes, it takes a second try, before things between two people work out. For Liz, it was sometimes a struggle to be with Max. She had fallen in love with Max in her sophomore year of high school. She broke up with Max, when she could no longer handle being in a romantic relationship with him. Max was half-alien. Liz was human. Liz hadn’t believed in aliens, until Max told her the truth about himself. Liz had career goals she had established for herself, before she became involved with Max. She liked to have plans and follow through on them. Being with an alien meant dealing with things she could not control. It meant plans and goals sometimes needed to be reprioritized. Liz hadn’t really noticed Max at all, until after he healed her and let her see him as he really was. Liz was in love with Max for a much shorter time, than Max had been in love with Liz. She wanted out of her romantic relationship with Max for a period of time. That’s why she went to Florida that summer. That’s why she didn’t communicate with Max. She wanted a fresh start, one that didn’t include romance with Max. Nevertheless, she continued to love Max in her heart. Sometimes people’s hearts don’t go where their heads tell them they should go! ~~~~~~~~ If Max and Tess’ relationship had worked out, and they had gone to Antar together, that would have been a different story, written by different people. Roswell, the television series, told its own story about the characters. I love Roswell as it is! Tess was raised by a shapeshifter, while Max was raised by humans. Tess received no love or affection in her life, growing up from birth with Nasedo as her only guardian. Max had the love and affection of two human parents, human grandparents, a sister, and a friend. Tess had been raised to believe that Antar was her home. Going to Antar was a major goal in Tess’ life. Max knew nothing of Antar, until long after he first started loving Liz. Earth was Max’s home his entire life. He had no drive to go to Antar, until he learned his child needed to go there to survive. Max and Tess had different goals in life. They were two different people with very different backgrounds on Earth. Tess felt unsafe on Earth. She thought she was hunted her entire life. Max knew he was different from other Earthlings, but there were people on Earth he knew and loved. Max might have been content to stay on Earth forever, or until a distant day in the future. Tess lied to Max about the baby needing to go to Antar to survive. Tess wanted to go to Antar in the foreseeable future. She was willing to betray Max to Kivar to achieve her goals. You can’t make someone want the same goals you have, even if they love you. People are who they are. Max and Tess’ relationship failed. Max’s feelings of love for Tess were wiped out by her terrible intentions for his child, his sister, his friend, and himself. People need love. They need to give love, and they need to receive love. Tess had never received love as a child, so she didn’t really trust Max’s love for her. Max had received love growing up. He knew its importance in life. Max loved Tess, until he learned she betrayed him, his child, his sister, and his friend. Max was willing to try to find love with Liz again.
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quote: I, too, would wish them a happy life together, if Tess hadn’t decided to betray Max to Kivar. But Tess did intend to betray Max to his enemy. Even if Tess hadn’t intended to betray Max, and had instead gone with Max to Antar, Kivar was in power on the planet. They might not have had a long life together.
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Liz did a lot of things with Max and for Max. She told Max about the silver handprint she saw in a photo of a corpse in the Sheriff’s office. She thought of a plan to try to divert Sheriff Valent’s suspicion away from Max. She checked out Topolsky with Max to find out what the undercover guidance counselor was really doing in Roswell. She fell in love with Max. She went with Max and Isabel to bring back Michael and Maria. She went to the Mesalika Tribe on her own to get information about the medallion found at Atherton’s. She took Max with her to talk to River Dog about the medallion. Max learned about Nasedo, because of Liz’s efforts. Liz helped Max locate the orb, which gave Max and the other podsters vital information about who they were, and what dangers they would face in the future. Liz helped Max figure out where Pierce’s bones had been sent, so Max could alter them and remove suspicions about Michael. Liz turned Max away from her, so Tess would stay in Roswell and help defeat the enemies that had come to Earth. Liz went with the podsters to Copper Summit, so they would have a plausible cover story for being there. Their trip resulted in their husks being destroyed. Liz advised Max that the Granilith was very important, a fact he took into consideration in deciding his course of action at the Summit. Liz warned Max mentally, as Lonnie tried to murder him. Liz saved Max’s life. Liz comforted Max, when he felt bad about not healing the father struck by an automobile. She told Max about Brody’s daughter, who had leukemia. Max healed Sydney and other children in the hospital. Liz researched information for trying to operate the spaceship Max wanted to use to help his child. Liz told Max about his father investigating Max. She told him not to kill the body Kivar used on Earth, since the body belonged to an innocent man. Liz figured out that shapeshifters have a base human form. She figured out how Max could find out what the clapper loader (Kal Langley) looked like. Liz helped Max in many ways. Max was hurt during the time Liz refused to return his love. Liz wasn’t trying to hurt Max, by not wanting to be in a romantic relationship with him. Liz was trying to protect her own feelings from being hurt, if Max were to remember Tess and love Tess instead of Liz. ~~~~~~~~~ Liz didn’t betray Max. She pretended to sleep with Kyle, so Max would work with Tess, to help save Earth. She was already broken up with Max at the time. She told Max ahead of time that she would not get back together with him. Max was hurt by her words and actions, but they were choices Liz made to try to save Earth. In retrospect, many of the characters made choices that didn’t always give them what they hoped for. That’s life. I think happiness and contentedness in life have to do with individual expectations and individual ability to be happy. Both Max and Liz had similar goals in life. They wanted to love each other and be with each other. They wanted to help other people. I think they looked very happy after their wedding. I think the future for Max and Liz was promising. [ 10-15-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 10-16-2003 06:55 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Yes, Max and Liz looked happy after their wedding because that's what the writers wanted the audience to think. Since Roswell is gone we will never know if Liz finally woke up and realized that Max only chose her because she was available and his true love Tess was gone forever. But, knowing Tess we don't know if she's really dead or not since the show is gone. Liz helped Max from the very beginning and even after him being an ass to her. It's funny how Max never thought about all the things Liz did for him when he humiliated her in front of Tess in BIY. Liz even told Max that an alien was responsible for Alex's death, but did Max believe her. No, Max went on with his life and was happy remembering his past with Tess. Max had made his choice, and he chose his alien non-wife Tess over Liz so he should have strapped on a pair and stayed with Tess even through her betrayal. The future might look promising for Max and Liz, but what happens when another alien complication gets in the way? Is Max going to just drop Liz like yesterday's news and choose his alien side or is he going to remember that Liz is his wife now? So many questions have been left unanswered and we'll never find out. But, I can say one thing Liz should not have married Max no matter how much she loved him. If things would have been different and we were shown that Max chose Liz because he completely loved and trusted her then I might have changed my opinion. Good points you've made Citrus and Vine. [ 10-16-2003: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
Posted 10-16-2003 03:39 PM by greenglow
quote: LOL Its funny how people keep changing terminology to emphasize their youth but in the end of the day isn't that just... a rose by any other name? |
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Posted 10-16-2003 07:36 PM by Citrus and Vine
I don’t think Max humiliated Liz in front of Tess, when he found the door to the Valenti home left opened. I think Max stuck up for Tess. Liz didn’t look humiliated. She looked somewhat uncomfortable. She was unwilling to talk to Max about what she asked Tess. She wanted to do things on her own, without working with the others. Earlier, Liz and Max had had a significant disagreement, when she intended to go to Sweden, without telling anyone. She had treated Max badly, so he was not happy to see her. Liz was willing to give up her friendship with Max to do things her own way. Max reacted towards Liz in much the same way Kyle reacted to Liz, after she had broken up with him and wanted to give him advice about Tess. Kyle and Max each thought Liz was interfering in their lives. People really don’t like their new love interests being questioned about or by their old love interest. That’s what Liz was doing with Tess. Questioning her. Max stood up for Tess, which is the right thing to do for someone you love and are involved with. Max and Liz were no longer a couple. They weren’t married, or engaged, or dating each other. They each had moved on with their lives, separately.
quote: The authors of fiction tell the story. It is a representation of what they are telling the audience. Max and Liz look happy, because, in the story the authors told, Max and Liz are happy. All couples meet future challenges. I think love, respect, and trust can make life’s journey more enjoyable!
quote: If Liz had been willing to talk to Max honestly, she would have explained why she believed Alex’s death was alien-related. (Alex didn’t die then, in the first timeline.) Liz had told Maria about Future Max, so she could have talked to Max about what she thought. However, even if she had explained, Alex could have died in the car crash, as an unexpected result of Liz helping to change the original time line. Liz was so upset by Alex’s death that she was unable to act calmly and reasonably. She didn’t work with her friends to try to figure things out. Instead, she demanded that they agree with her, without trying to listen to their side, and then going from there. Max initially agreed with Liz that Alex could not have committed suicide. Later, Valenti showed Max confidential information that indicated that Alex was not acting the way he had previously. Teachers noticed the change in Alex. The delivery guy noticed that Alex said, “Why does life have to be so wrong? Why does everything have to be a lie?” The truck driver thought Alex had deliberately swerved into his lane. There really was evidence that was worth taking into consideration. It was part of the whole. Max tried to show Liz the file. The information in it might have been helpful. They might have been to figure things out sooner. Liz might not have spent her money needlessly on a plane ticket to Sweden. She might not have alienated Maria, Michael, Isabel, or Max. But Liz refused to even look at the folder’s contents or talk things through with her friends. Instead, she crossed her arms and said to Kyle, “I know what I know.” It might have been helpful if Liz had explained what she knew to her friends. Liz refused to talk things through with Max. She ignored the effect she had on Maria. She ignored her responsibilities of being kind and considerate towards her friends. She jeopardized Sean’s future. She jeopardized the safety of the podsters. Even Valenti heard about what Liz was doing. He knew Liz was drawing attention to the group, which she shouldn’t be doing. Liz should have handled things differently, but her judgment was impaired by her grief. We all make mistakes. ~~~~ It was a good thing Max didn’t stay with Tess. Otherwise, he would have been dead. He couldn’t go to Antar with her, because Tess was going to hand him over to Kivar. Kivar was going to kill Max. Tess didn’t want to stay on Earth. She wanted to go to Antar. Tess ended her relationship with Max. There can’t be an ongoing relationship, if one person wants out. Tess wanted out of her relationship with Max. Nothing Max could have done at that moment would have changed what Tess intended to do to Max. Tess destroyed her relationship with Max, not Max. Tess was responsible for wiping out the love he once had for her.
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quote: The show Roswell ended, so their future beyond is thus far unwritten. I doubt that Max would ever drop Liz. He loved her. I think as long as she wanted to be with him, they would stay together. Short of losing their memories of who they were or some other great catastrophe, I think they would stay together for as long as possible. Liz was already targeted for death, because of her powers. Together, Liz and Max would be stronger in dealing with problems from the government or from aliens. Max was both human and alien. That was who he was. Whatever alien problems might develop, he and Liz could deal with them together. They both wanted to help each other, as well as others.
quote:I think people who love each other, and who are free to marry each other, should get married, if that is what they both want. Both Liz and Max loved each other. He helped to save Liz and Earth. Liz helped to save him and Earth. They loved each other and wanted to spend their lives together.
quote: I think the audience is shown that Max completely loved and trusted Liz, after they got back together. He and Liz worked together to find the spaceship needed to try to help his child. He trusted her to create problems at the party, so he could switch the diamond key. He trusted her to keep the clerk under control while he searched the basement. He trusted Liz to drive their getaway car. He trusted Liz to keep silent about their motives, after they were arrested. He loved Liz and tried to get her away from jail. When Liz wanted to go to Harvard, Max helped her to prepare for her interview. He loved her and wanted to help her do what she wanted, even though Liz would be leaving. He trusted that their love could endure. Even after Liz left Roswell to go to boarding school, Max continued to love and trust Liz. He hoped they would be together soon. Even after Max found himself occupying another person’s body, he continued to love Liz and want to be with her. When Liz still had reservations about her future with Max, he was willing to take things at a pace that was comfortable for Liz. They played putt-putt golf and joked around, rather than going back to the way things had been. Max loved Liz and respected her need to take things slow in their relationship for awhile. Liz and Max had different origins, but they loved and respected each other. They had problems. Liz broke up with Max. Later, they each moved on with their lives. They didn’t always agree with each other, which is normal, after people go their separate ways. Often, when people break up, they stop talking to each other altogether. Max and Liz were able to maintain a friendship between them for a while, after they broke up. Later, Max and Liz wanted to start over again. They felt ready to begin seeing each other again, with the idea of a possible romance developing. They still had to deal with problems, as they came up. They fell in love again and eventually married. Thanks, ~*Sonia E.*~! [ 10-16-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 10-16-2003 08:18 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
Max still received the gem he had in Liz even after all the crap that she went through. Yes, Max went through trials and tribulations too, but to me he failed the test big time. Liz did everything in her power to continually help Max and it was always about what Max wanted and needed. When did Max ever think about Liz and what she wanted and needed? Ummmm, never!! I'm glad that Max tried to help Liz get into Harvard, but look how that feat turned out. While Liz was grieving for Alex and trying to solve his murder at first Max did try to help her. But, when Liz didn't follow his commands anymore Max showed where his true loyalties lie, with his own species. Max did humiliate Liz in front of Tess and Liz was hurt and I don't care if Max was in love with Tess or not. Liz was trying to find out some innocent information and here comes the big bad alien king blowing it all out of proportion. If Max was thinking with his brain instead of his power source he would have known that Liz was onto something and not trying to hurt his love Tess. Kyle never manhandled Liz like Max did in that school hallway. Yes, Kyle was upset with Liz because she had broken up with him and then she was trying to give him advice about a girl he was interested in. But, Kyle never mistreated Liz like Max did, a guy that was supposed to love and trust her prior to his alien non-wife showing up in Roswell. As a matter of fact Liz and Kyle turned out to be great friends and Kyle was the only one that stuck by Liz when she really needed it. I'll always love Liz, Alex , and Kyle, because they were my favorites and why I continued to watch Roswell. Yes, Max received his consolation prize Liz because he was stuck on Earth and decided to choose his human side. I guess Max finally followed the advice of Kal Langley, but that's after Liz had to bring him back from the dead. Such a shame!! [ 10-16-2003: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
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Posted 10-16-2003 08:23 PM by shapeshifter
Not to ignore the Liz/Tess/Max discussion, but rather to maybe frame it.... quote:It is the same rose , but maybe the meaning has changed from generation to generation, and that change is reflected in the terminology. "Date" implies a prearranged meeting time set aside by both people. "Going steady" implies not being involved with anyone else. But "going out" reminds me of leaving a dance with someone with whom you didn't necessarily make plans. It can refer to the same things as "dating" and "going steady," but "going out" can also be very casual, which, btw, is a term Liz used to refer to how she & Kyle had left things at the start of Season 1. |
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Posted 10-17-2003 05:09 PM by greenglow
Shapeshifter: Very well observed. I also think things are more casual these days, but people do eventually "go steady" even without using the expression But, yeah, this are not very "plan-friendly" times, are they? That gets into every "corner" of your life... Oh, well... [ 10-17-2003: Message edited greenglow ] [ 10-25-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
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Posted 10-19-2003 11:49 PM by shapeshifter
Just a late night random thought: Kyle didn't want Tess doing "any of that Bewitched crap," but he liked it when Isabel used her powers for his own advantages. Maybe Tess, as an "old soul," just knew better than to get involved with an as-yet immature teenage boy. Or is this just another case of writers' inconsistency? |
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Posted 10-20-2003 08:21 AM by Reggie
Driveby! Maybe he took Tess more seriously than Isabel. Isabel was just an occasional source of goodies, but Tess was a person he had around all the time. Re dating: I doubt that Tess would have agreed to go out with Kyle before TEOTW (the "lamp trimming" scene), because she had her cap set for Max. Even though he was clearly interested in Liz, Liz wasn't reciprocally interested in Max. Tess had hopes, until she finally gave up on him in that scene. Of course, later in that same episode, Liz puts Max and Tess together; so after that Tess would have only had eyes for Max. Since Tess has been interested in Max through the series, I don't see her "dating" Kyle; although she certainly had noticed he was an attractive guy and probably enjoyed the time she spent with him "at home" - watching TV, etc. And thanks. Mean people suck, mean former friends moreso. [ 10-20-2003: Message edited Reggie ] |
Posted 10-25-2003 04:07 PM by greenglow
quote: Probably just inconsitency But Reggie is probably right: Kyle took Tess more seriously. |
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Posted 10-26-2003 04:08 PM by Nemo
A long time ago, I thought I saw a gas station of this brand (Tesoro = treasure, in Spanish) in some Roswell episode, but I can't remember where. (Though I may have only imagined it....) Can anyone tell me? IMAGE: www.tesoropetroleum.com/images/logo1.gif |
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Posted 10-26-2003 08:37 PM by shapeshifter
Nemo! So great to "see" you again. I'm not finding it as a word in the archives, and it's not the name of the gas station in Max to the Max. If it is in an episode, it could provide an interesting sign pointing to "Tess" if they cropped the picture so we only see the "Tes" portion of the logo. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ BTW, I have at long last added a guestbook to the Archives site. |
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Posted 10-26-2003 10:54 PM by Nemo
Thanks for your enthusiasm, shapeshifter.
quote:Possibly. As you might expect, I was struck also by the four-sided figure (diamond shape) with four stripes inside. [ 10-26-2003: Message edited Nemo ] |
Posted 10-27-2003 03:38 PM by greenglow
quote: Sorry Nemo, I can't recall a scene like that... but if I may add something to Shapeshifter's clues to possible readings, "tesoro" also means "precious" in Spanish, and is often used by couples like in english are expressions like "honey" or "darling". So, depending on the context of the scene, it could have symbolic/romantic readings (ok, I'm feeling kind of sentimental tonight :sigh [ 10-27-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
Posted 10-27-2003 10:56 PM by shapeshifter
quote: quote:Oh, I thought it looked like the granolith, which was something of a buried treasure. greenglow, very good symbolism. Now, if we can just locate the station in an episode... |
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Posted 10-29-2003 08:14 PM by Reggie
Hi, Nemo! Long time, no see. I don't recall seeing that gas station, but I'd say 235 South as a first guess. What kind of gas station was that, just before the motel they wound up at? And yes, I know I should post something more substantial. Meanwhile, I think the links to my fanfic disappeared. They show what I think was going on behind the scenes; remember, I'm a CHADer, so I tried to tie up all the loose ends into something that made sense. My time on the Lizology threads was a big help, too. I'll defend each and every line, in just the way TPTB should have been able to defend the rest of the show (but couldn't). So: Departure, Part 2 - rated R for horror/violence, but remember, I like all the characters. The beginning of my Third Season. Windup - a "bridge" episode between the conclusion of "The Alex Files" and the beginning of an (unwritten) arc with baseball-themed names, wherein Michael is tested. Enjoy! |
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Posted 10-31-2003 11:31 AM by shapeshifter
... so I watched 295 South & Destiny--looking for gas stations. No Tesoro. I'm thinking it was a Roswell advertiser maybe? About Destiny. It seems that Nasedo and his magic rocks could have easily revived any alien that was killed in the crash. So there could be another shapeshifter out there. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [ 11-02-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Posted 11-02-2003 10:05 PM by Reggie
quote: "No characters were harmed in the writing of this fanfic." Well, the idea came straight out of the canon: Skin & Bones, to be precise. The rationalle behind it is rooted in the death(s) of Mr. Harding, in White Room and S&B. I carefully explained that in the story, something other writers (hello, JK) often didn't bother to. And since so many people agreed that <deleted> had to be killed, only going to such horrific excess would generate the necessary sympathetic backlash. Besides, no one did get hurt; and there was plenty of foreshadowing on that: no dei ex machinae here! As for other shapeshifters: it's easy to posit an "advance team", not part of the crashed ship's crew, also at large on Earth. But I don't think Nacedo had enough time to revive anyone before the Army collected all the bodies. "Post-operative facial swelling"? What happened? |
Posted 11-02-2003 10:50 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Ah yes, the ol' "boxed lunch" line.
quote:Just skin cancer. I deleted it out of my post above because it wound up at the top of the page. But thanks for asking. And it's getting better rapidly now. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Over on the Rebels thread, they brought up an interesting point that when Kvar came back for Isabel, he expressed no interest in getting Max or his son. I'm theorizing that Nasedo made up "the plan" in an effort to get the podsters to procreate...but why? |
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Posted 11-02-2003 11:47 PM by Nemo
Friends (hi, Reggie ), thanks for searching for that gas station sign. I think it's not in s1 (or I would remember it better). It's also not in Max's trip to Hollywood, I just checked. So maybe it's elsewhere in s2 or s3, or maybe I just imagined it.... I noticed another curious thing in the backgrounds. (Again, I don't know whether it's chance or intentional.) Some time ago we noted the markings on this pillow behind Liz [in BIY]: This was another instance of something 2-sided (the H-shaped mark) placed near Liz. But besides that, it had the familiar 3+1 pattern (the arrowhead-shaped marks): note that the lone 1, besides pointing in the opposite direction, is also set off from the 3 by a sort of barrier, a vertical line. Now notice the arrangement of the bottles in the Evans's wine rack [in 4AAAB]. Maybe this is reaching, but it looks again like 3 + 1 separated by a vertical barrier line. [It's harder to see, but on the top surface of the wine rack there appear to be 3 objects (standing bottles) plus something two-sided (what is that blue thing or pair of things -- just two smaller bottles?), another common pattern....] [image credits: Roswell Screen Grab Galleries] [ 11-02-2003: Message edited Nemo ] |
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Posted 11-03-2003 09:37 PM by Reggie
Originally posted by Nemo: [It's harder to see, but on the top surface of the wine rack there appear to be 3 objects (standing bottles) plus something two-sided (what is that blue thing or pair of things -- just two smaller bottles?), another common pattern....] I think that's three bottles, and a short-stemmed green goblet. The blue thing is a dishcloth or something centered behind the goblet. The pattern is indeed familiar: two like items, flanking a similar item; and a short item off to the side. It's even green: our favorite ! Originally posted by shapeshifter: Precisely. Just skin cancer. I deleted it out of my post above because it wound up at the top of the page. But thanks for asking. And it's getting better rapidly now. "Just" skin cancer? Over on the Rebels thread, they brought up an interesting point that when Kvar came back for Isabel, he expressed no interest in getting Max or his son. I'm theorizing that Nasedo made up "the plan" in an effort to get the podsters to procreate...but why? Because Mr. Harding had no such "Plan". He was just looking after Tess, while Tic-tac looked after the other three "podsters". Note that if the four of them had been raised as siblings, Max and his once-and-future wife would have been as queasy about that relationship as Isabel and Michael were. That little rat Nikolas mindwarped Tess at the end of MitC to believe that there was a "Plan" she had to follow; to betray Max to K' var. Remember, K' var killed them all before, so there is no reason to believe he won't kill them all again, including Tess. She has no logical reason to go to her own death again. In my own understanding of the story, Pierce knew about Liz as soon as the FBI did, and CongresSkin Whittaker learned about the aliens shortly thereafter. She recognised the Royal Four for what they were, and reported to Nikolas. The "alien landing" of Into the Woods was his attempt to draw the R4 out; and he succeded, witness the figure who burned the photo (in Michael's fire) at the end of that episode. I believe that was one of Nikolas's agents. Mr. Harding must have understood the symbols too, because he showed up shortly thereafter. What was Harding up to in Max to the Max? Someone who looked like Max went off with Liz. If the real Max had gone straight to the police, it would have demonstrated that he wasn't the shapeshifter that the FBI was looking for (because the other guy was), putting him in the clear. Harding could have escaped, with or without Liz, and the FBI would have been drawn away from the R4. I think that's what he was doing. And Nikolas? As a military leader, he tried to divide and conquer the R4. Using Liz as a Judas goat, CW tries to identify who the R4 are, and which is which. Since Max is shy, and Michael is bull-headed, she probably suspected that Michael was Zan and Max Rath. The woman from Max/Rath's past would be Villandra, and her moving in on a guy does sound in character. That suggests Tess is Villandra, who (supposedly) betrayed them once and might be persuaded to do it again. When it turned out that Isabel was, CW tried to turn her instead. Failing that, Nikolas tried to turn Max. As Zan, he'd enjoyed power; but not responsibility. At the Summit (MitC) Max was offered just that (at least at first, until K' var chose to jerk the rug out from under him). Since Max turned that down, the next target exposed was Tess. This is where it got clever: Tess was turned, by Nikolas using brute force; a mindwarp. She was convinced that her "father" had a Deal with K' var to turn the R4 in. All she had to do was convince Max that he had gotten her pregnant, and the baby could only survive on Twilo... er, Antar. Max (and the others) would accompany her to Antar, completing the bargain. Her "father" was of course in no position to object. Getting Alex to translate the "book" offered the way to get the R4 on The Granolyth, headed for the spider's web. Remember, keeping Alex in Las Cruces was far more than Tess could have done; plus she didn't have access to alien bombs or know how to translate the book. Only Nikolas could have done all that, and doubtless he was "in charge", not Tess. In my fanfics, Nikolas's plan is thwarted. The next logical target is Michael. Under the right circumstances, he could be gotten off by himself, and turned or killed. That would be the theme of my next story arc. How would he escape? Well, <edited for length>. It's really just that simple! [ 11-03-2003: Message edited Reggie ] |
Posted 11-04-2003 04:28 PM by ukspacegirl
quote: Just a fly -by to say Reggie, I Totally Agree with this theory. It's the only one that makes any sense. BTW - can you post a link to your fanfics? Thanks! |
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Posted 11-04-2003 10:24 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hello, posters on this page! Reggie, I applaud you for your writing! I admire writers! shapeshifter, I wish you all the best in your treatments! Nemo, so great to see your posts, and read your observations! ukspacegirl, I love all the caps you make and post! |
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Posted 11-04-2003 10:25 PM by Citrus and Vine
* Some people have commented that, based on the fact that Kivar killed Max, Tess, Isabel, and Michael in their previous lives, Tess could not have had a logical reason to carry out Nasedo’s deal with Kivar. However, the fact that Tess wasn’t killed when she went to Antar proves that she was able to survive Kivar, when she went to Antar. Kivar didn’t kill her. Tess reported that Kivar wanted to kill baby Zan. She didn’t report that Kivar wanted to kill her. In the Granolith chamber, Tess told Max that Kivar wasn’t her enemy. Nasedo had taught Tess all her life that Kivar wasn’t her enemy. And Kivar didn’t kill Tess upon her arrival. Tess also talked about Kivar’s plan to kill the child. She never said that Kivar wanted to kill her. So Nasedo was right about the fact that Kivar wasn’t Tess’ enemy. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Some people have said that Nicholas compelled Tess to have a child by Max and betray Max, Michael, and Isabel to Kivar. However, Nicholas wanted Lonnie to kill Max, if Max didn’t take the deal he laid out at the Summit. Lonnie tried to kill Max. If she had succeeded in killing Max, then the deal that Tess told Max about would have been impossible. Tess could not have a child by Max, if Lonnie killed Max. Tess could not hand over Max to Kivar, if Lonnie killed Max. So, Nicholas did not get Tess to get pregnant and attempt to hand Max, Michael, and Isabel over to Kivar. Nicholas’ main goal was to get the Granolith. That was his main concern, when he made his proposal to Max at the Summit. Nicholas was stuck on Earth in the husk of an adolescent boy. The husks of the Skins had been destroyed. Nicholas’ husk might have been destroyed as well. If his husk had been destroyed, then Nicholas would have needed the Granolith in order to return to Antar, where the atmosphere would not harm him. He could not survive on Earth without a new husk. Since Tess had killed the other Skins, Nicholas no longer had a power base on Earth, even if his husk had survived. Nicholas had good reasons to want to go to Antar. After Lonnie tried to kill Max, she and Rath captured Tess. They tried to get into her mind to obtain the location of the Granolith. Lonnie wanted the Granolith location, so she could go to Antar. (Earlier, Nicholas had told Lonnie that without the Granolith, she wasn’t going to Antar.) Nasedo made a deal with Kivar 40 years earlier. His deal was different from what Nicholas wanted. Nicholas wanted the Granolith. Kivar wanted a child by Max and Tess, and he wanted Tess to hand over Max, Michael, and Isabel to him. Nicholas didn’t make the deal with Kivar that Tess carried out. Nasedo made the deal with Kivar. 777777777777777777777777777777777777777777777 Some people have said that Tess wasn’t powerful enough to get Alex to translate the book. However, I think Tess was powerful enough to do it. Tess had been able to mindwarp other people. In the case of Alex, Alex liked working with computers. In Las Cruces, he had access to a high tech computer to decode the book. He stayed to himself and didn’t interact with other people. I think Tess was able to get Alex to decode the book, because it was only necessary to make a mental suggestion for Alex to do work he liked. If Alex had been illiterate or computer ignorant, then I would say Tess might have been unable to get Alex to decode the book, using her powers. But Alex was intelligent and computer savvy. He was the right person to get the book decoded using the super computer. Some people have said that Tess wouldn’t have had access to the alien device that guarded the book translation printout and the crystal. However, the orbs, which were alien devices, survived the crash. I think the alien device bomb survived the crash, too. I think Nasedo had the device and taught Tess how to use it.
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Posted 11-05-2003 03:17 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Good point that Kivar didn't kill Tess. That could open things up to a lot of specualtion about who was on whose side. For instance, maybe it was really Antarian Ava who betrayed everyone, and that was why Nasedo chose Tess for indoctrination in dececption. This could explain Whittaker's confusion about who was the female who would likely go over to the Skins' side. But, just to be accurate, Tess didn't say they were going to kill Zan, rather that he was "rejected," presumably as the heir to the throne:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And interesting symbolism jumped out at me while watching Missing. |
Posted 11-06-2003 05:48 PM by Reggie
quote: Departure, Part 2 - rated R for horror/violence, but remember, I like all the characters. The beginning of my Third Season. Windup - a "bridge" episode between the conclusion of "The Alex Files" and the beginning of an (unwritten) arc with baseball-themed names, wherein Michael is tested. Thanks. I also have a "replacement" for Skin & Bones. This was my first fanfic, done because that episode was the worst one I'd seen (until then). I wanted to see if it could be improved, with real science and logical plot construction. I think "Skins & Bone" turned out fairly well, considering the foolishness it replaced. The scene breaks aren't as obvious as they should be, so watch carefully. All science in this one is guaranteed 100% real. Citrus & Vine: |
Posted 11-08-2003 04:29 PM by Reggie
quote: Well, he had Max's son. And if he'd mentioned the others and coming back, it would look as if he was still after the group of them, as he was before. This way, he can flatter Isafool that he had eyes for her alone. Remember, it almost worked! [ 11-08-2003: Message edited Reggie ] |
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Posted 11-11-2003 03:30 PM by Reggie
Citrus and Vine: Some people have commented that, based on the fact that Kivar killed Max, Tess, Isabel, and Michael in their previous lives, Tess could not have had a logical reason to carry out Nasedo’s deal with Kivar. That would be me! However, the fact that Tess wasn’t killed when she went to Antar proves that she was able to survive Kivar, when she went to Antar. Kivar didn’t kill her. Tess reported that Kivar wanted to kill baby Zan. She didn’t report that Kivar wanted to kill her. Why would she complain to Max that K' var wanted to kill her, when Max (etc.) also wanted to kill her? I doubt he'd be very sympathetic. We do know that Tess was hiding behind the baby when Max tried to kill her. It's entirely possible that she brought the baby to Earth for that reason, not because K 'var wanted to kill him. He was her insurance policy. In fact, it would make much more sense for K' var to want the baby (Max's heir), and postpone killing Tess until the baby was born. She could easily make the case that she had to be kept alive until the baby was weened; since the stores on Antar probably don't stock baby formula. That would give her time to organize an escape. In the Granolith chamber, Tess told Max that Kivar wasn’t her enemy. Nasedo had taught Tess all her life that Kivar wasn’t her enemy. Non sequitor. In the first case, Tess was under the influence of Nikolas's mindwarp. We never saw Mr. Harding say anything about Nikolas, or the Skins until his death. There's no evidence that he "taught" her anything, except the excuses she made as she was leaving; and IMHO she was MWed at that time. Some people have said that Nicholas compelled Tess to have a child by Max and betray Max, Michael, and Isabel to Kivar. However, Nicholas wanted Lonnie to kill Max, if Max didn’t take the deal he laid out at the Summit. Lonnie tried to kill Max. If she had succeeded in killing Max, then the deal that Tess told Max about would have been impossible. Tess could not have a child by Max, if Lonnie killed Max. Tess could not hand over Max to Kivar, if Lonnie killed Max. So, Nicholas did not get Tess to get pregnant and attempt to hand Max, Michael, and Isabel over to Kivar. Nicholas’ main goal was to get the Granolith. That was his main concern, when he made his proposal to Max at the Summit. Well, Nikolas wasn't going to tell Max that his first priority was to "get" the R4 ! His actions speak for themselves, though. When he has the R4, he asks about The Granolyth. He does not seem to be looking for it, though. His first priority is to find the R4. The Granolyth is important, but no direct threat to K' var as long as the kids don't know how to use it. As I understand it, he's to bring them back alive if possible, but dead if not; because they'll be executed as a group after they all get there. He didn't tell Lonnie to kill Max, remember: he just said he wanted them dead. K' var would also have seen to that, Nikolas said so. I believe that Nikolas hatched his plan after Lonnie delivered Tess to him, which was after her attempt on Max. Therefore her attempt could not interfere with Nikolas's plan. I do not believe that Tess became pregnant in the second season, either. Remember, JK & Co. were so proud that their writers had only seen a few episodes of Roswell before turning out S3; and S3 was so wildly different from the previous seasons than many wondered if it was some sort of parody or alternate reality. I wouldn't look to the events of S3 for explanations of what happened in S1 or S2. Nicholas had good reasons to want to go to Antar. If his husk had been destroyed, then Nicholas would have needed the Granolith in order to return to Antar, where the atmosphere would not harm him. He could not survive on Earth without a new husk. True, assuming that he was indeed a Skin. But he could not (safely) return to Antar without accounting for the R4, either. His orders were to get them; and if he came back without them he'd be court-martialed. Remember that at "the Summit" Max was to have his followers lay down their arms. His followers are probably a threat to K' var, so they must be dealt with. Killing Max would have the desired effect, once and for all, and with less military effort. Killing him after a show trial on Antar would be best, so that's probably what K' var really wants. Nikolas's orders probably reflect that priority. (Earlier, Nicholas had told Lonnie that without the Granolith, she wasn’t going to Antar.) Well, of course! That's what she wanted most, to go home. Nikolas used that to motivate her to look for The Granolyth. Finding it was the next item on his agenda. He already knew where the R4 were to be found; he didn't need any further help with that. All he had to do was collect them, and ship them back to Antar. MWing Tess to "become" pregnant, and "need" to go home, would do that trick. Suppose Lonnie found it, figured out how to fly it, and flew it home. Don't you think Nikolas would have been happy to reopen his offer from the Summit, where they'd all go to Antar? Supposedly, under this offer, there'd be a truce and safe passage for all. Not a bad deal... if true; which of course it wasn't, as Nikolas said. Note that all those Skins wouldn't fit on The Granolyth. There must be another transport for the army of them; either hidden on Earth or available from Antar. Nikolas could use that to get home, if he wasn't aboard The Granolyth. Some people have said that Tess wasn’t powerful enough to get Alex to translate the book. However, I think Tess was powerful enough to do it. Tess had been able to mindwarp other people. In the case of Alex, Alex liked working with computers. In Las Cruces, he had access to a high tech computer to decode the book. He stayed to himself and didn’t interact with other people. I think Tess was able to get Alex to decode the book, because it was only necessary to make a mental suggestion for Alex to do work he liked. Nice try, but didn't Kyle report that Alex was quite upset about having had his mind ruined? It doesn't sound like a friendly suggestion; it sounds like a mindrape. Note that when her own life, and Max or her son were on the line, Tess was only able to keep a MW going for a few minutes. (See White Room, S&B, and 4A+B.) When she was only hiding a memory, it still only lasted a few weeks. Keeping Alex submerged for a month or more was completely beyond her. Only Nikolas could do that; and while he was there he could organize the souvenirs Alex would bring home, and recruit not-Leanna, etc. I have a rant, "TNoEvil", filed somewhere I could post. Some people have said that Tess wouldn’t have had access to the alien device that guarded the book translation printout and the crystal. I think Nasedo had the device and taught Tess how to use it. Could be; but we know that Nikolas had lots of alien hardware, doubtless including weapons. Since the shapeshifter(s) escaped the crash without even the (important) orbs, why would they bring along the equivalent of a hand grenade? Which, if the Hardings or their home were searched, would be highly incriminating? That makes a lot less sense. Did you check out the fanfics yet? [ 11-11-2003: Message edited Reggie ] |
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Posted 11-11-2003 03:47 PM by ukspacegirl
Hi Reggie! Yes, I've begun checking out the fanfics, and I loved the 'boxed lunch' fic.. very witty! And ITA with everything you just said.
uk |
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Posted 11-12-2003 01:36 PM by Vihmakass
Oeh! Vihmakass is sitting down after long way finally at home again - how good it feels! Hi! [ 11-12-2003: Message edited Vihmakass ] |
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Posted 11-12-2003 10:03 PM by shapeshifter
Vihmakass! It's so good to see your words again! Yes, definitely, that makes so much sense--that Kvar was after the Royal Seal. How stupid of us to have not thought of it before! And his attraction to Isabel would be that her child might also bear the Royal Seal--so either the child would be under the control of his father (Kvar), or Kvar would make sure there were no Royal heirs to inherit the seal. |
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Posted 11-12-2003 11:35 PM by Algieba
Hi, Reggie. I'm always looking for good fanfics and I enjoyed reading yours. Thanks for sharing it. Does anyone have an opinion about who was the most powerful of the royal four? I can't figure it out. Max could heal better than the others. He had the green force field that could stop speeding bullets. He could blast people off their feet with a wave of his hand. I'll call that a power blast. Isabel could dreamwalk. I don't recall her healing anyone but she started to heal Max when he was beaten up by Kyle's bully friends in season one. She was able to "see" Tess calling for help in Surprise. She could also blast others. Tess could heal slight injuries. She could mindwarp. She could incinerate a whole roomful of Skins and she tried to power blast the Gandarium. I'm not sure what she did to the sixteen scientists and soldiers in 4AAAB but whatever it was it was very quick and left them bleeding. Death ray, perhaps? Or was it just a power blast with lethal force? Michael healed one time only, River Dog's ankle. He couldn't heal his own black eye that his foster father gave him though. He could use his force to kill people. When he and Max were fighting in Who Died and Made You King, it looked like he was getting the better of Max until Max showered his face with broken glass. It seems like Michael could only attack and destroy. Oh, wait a minute. He's the one who got the vision from Atherton's key. He also "just knew" how to figure out the map on River Dog's cave wall. All of them could manipulate molecular structures. So, Why was Tess concerned about Max killing her in 4AAAB? Was she weakened by her leg injury or was Max really more powerful? And Michael, Isabel and Liz since they all were threatening to kill her. I'm sure I'm leaving something out. They all had powers but some to a greater degree than others. So who was the most powerful alien of them all? [ 11-12-2003: Message edited Algieba ] |
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Posted 11-13-2003 11:38 AM by Vihmakass
Nice to see you too Shapeshifter! --------------------------------- And among other reasons (legallisation) this is one reason why Kivar hunts King. [ 11-13-2003: Message edited Vihmakass ] |
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Posted 11-13-2003 02:40 PM by Reggie
Hi, Vihm! Welcome home. My thought is that Kivar didnt want Zan or Max or baby...thing what he wants is seal in Max head, that magic hologramm. It was showed like mark of legal King. They can reject Zan but still hes essentce carries seal...he and hes incarnations or kids are real Kings. This is only my view to it... You're absolutely right! I doubt that it's possible for K' var to actually have the seal himself. (On the other hand, how did Michael get it? On the third hand, that's Season 3, which made no sense anyway.) But for K' var to control the person who has the Seal is another thing entirely. If Max had taken the bargain offered at the Summit (MitC), K' var would have controlled him and his Seal. If K' var had kept the baby, then (eventually) he would have controlled it. This is another danger to Tess, if she stayed on Antar: she could have influenced her son, possibly more than K' var. By killing her after her son was born, this problem is, shall we say, eliminated. I don't see any likelihood of any of the NY4 getting the seal. If they were originaly supposed to have it, then Zan would have; but he didn't. When Max was "killed", it went to Michael. Only if all the NM4 were kiled would there be a chance of it going to one of the NY4, if it didn't jump to a closer heir still living on Antar. Shapeshifter: Exactly. K'var would control the person who has the seal, even if his wife Isabel wound up with it. This may have even been behind his original interest in Isabel: he might become the father of the Heir to the Throne. If something unfortunate happened to King Zan/Max, of course. Not that that's likely, or anything. ukspacegirl: Thanks. I wrote "Windup" to be funnier than "Departure, Pt. 2", since I thought we needed a break from the drama. And of course, they're filled with Lizology-style details. |
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Posted 11-19-2003 10:44 PM by shapeshifter
I posted my review of Turnabout. Reg, I mentioned your tastes in it. If it bugs you, let me know and I'll cut it out. It includes a short list of the major tv-to-book bloopers. **************************************************** I considered bumping this thread with a new post, but decided to edit instead since there aren't that many posts left before it will be closed...which segues into my comments about the policies for threads in the early days of this board, as is illustrated in my recently additions to the Archives of the first pages of threads 4, 5, and 6 of the Is Liz Important to the Alien Mythology? threads. [ 11-22-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 11-22-2003 02:04 PM by Reggie
Hmm? It doesn't bug me. I don't have the book (?) to review, though. And I still maintain that it wasn't my idea, it came out of the canon. Edited for spelling. Though JK seems to have used a shotgun approach to the so-called plots, I don't think anything came from a "cannon". [ 11-22-2003: Message edited Reggie ] |
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Posted 11-22-2003 03:05 PM by Roswelldesertsky
Hey Everyone! It's already late over here,so I gotta go offline...but I really like ti join your discussion the next time. Seems to be pretty interesting... |
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Posted 11-22-2003 03:59 PM by Reggie
Welcome, Roswelldesertsky! As a tip, you might want to go to the bottom of the page, and click on the "Print Topic" link. When that loads, save it as a file; and you can read it offline. It won't capture the pictures, but it may help with some of the more complicated discussions. That's what I usually do, anyway. (I need all the help I can get.) [ 11-22-2003: Message edited Reggie ] |
Posted 11-22-2003 05:21 PM by greenglow
quote: well, I guess somethings *hitted* fans like a cannon |
Posted 11-23-2003 04:20 AM by Roswelldesertsky
quote: I will do that Where does your last topic start?Or better said,what the hell are you discussing rigth now? |
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Posted 11-23-2003 04:30 AM by Roswelldesertsky
shapeshifter,I've just taken a look on your site...and WoW!You have really been thinking about Roswell |
Posted 11-23-2003 10:23 AM by Reggie
quote: Well, we've been discussing whether the "Deal" Tess was talking about in "Departure" was real or not. My thesis has been that it's nonsense, and therefore is probably not real. If it were a mindwarp, from Nikolas, the story we've seen makes much better sense. I've been plugging my two fanfics, which explain how such a thing would work; and (of course!) how to fight it. I posted the links and explanations on 11/6, which I think is on the previous page. They're text files, so you can save them and read them at your leisure. We've actually got a bit of a lull going at the moment. Anything you'd like to discuss? |
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Posted 11-23-2003 10:17 PM by jero
Wow it's been a long time since I was here! quote: Reg and any one else that's interested: If you use Windows, you can save the threads exactly as they look online. Wait until the page is fully loaded and click on "File" at the very top left of your screen... In the drop-down menu there should be an option to "Save As"... I use the "Webpage, complete" option. (I don't know what the others do.) That way you get everything on the page... pics, smilies, avatars, etc. Later, |
Posted 11-24-2003 09:52 AM by Roswelldesertsky
quote:
Nasedo made this deal with Khivar.The ship crashed on earth 1947,but Max,Michael and Isabel left their chambers earlier and so it took a long time to find them and "put" Max and Tess together.Due to this duration Khivar thought that Nasedo broke the deal and sent his "army" to earth.(that explains why the Skins tried to kill everyone at the beginning of season 2) What do you think? [ 11-24-2003: Message edited Roswelldesertsky ] |
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Posted 11-24-2003 07:49 PM by Citrus and Vine
Reggie If you were to choose someone other than Nicholas to blame, I might be able to accept your premise. Some hitherto unnamed alien. Or maybe not. Tess never drummed her fingers or gave any indication she was mindwarped into doing something she opposed, like Alex and Amy did. To explain how The-Nasedo-Deal-With-Kivar could be a mindwarp from Nicholas, I think you’d need to explain when Nicholas mindwarped Tess and why. Since Nicholas wanted the Granilith, I think if he had sufficient power, he would get that information from Tess, but he didn’t. The Granilith was still there. Nicholas was powerful, but not powerful enough to stop Tess from destroying all those Skins at the high school. Nicholas made it out of the school alive, but he couldn’t stop Tess from destroying the other Skins. The evidence in the episodes points to Nasedo being the person who made the deal with Kivar. Nasedo didn’t contact Max, Michael, and Isabel when he came to Roswell. He didn’t want them to know about the podchamber. Nasedo got Michael thrown in jail. Nasedo got Max imprisoned in the White Room. Nasedo didn’t try to get Max out of the White Room, until the other podsters showed up. Then he pretended that he needed their help, although he didn’t. Nasedo knew all about the former base. He knew Pierce was with Max in the White Room. He knew how to get past the security door on his own, using an agent’s hand on the panel and a shapeshifted agent’s form to go in. He could have rescued Max when Max was alone, before anyone came in the room in the morning. Nasedo wanted to get the podsters out of Roswell and away from their friends and family, so they would be dependent on him. He wanted them to want to go to Antar. He wanted to fulfill his deal with Kivar. Nasedo didn’t know where Nicholas was, and Nicholas didn’t know where Nasedo was. So Nicholas couldn’t have mindwarped Nasedo into thinking he made a deal with Kivar. Nicholas represented Kivar as wanting something different from what was in Nasedo’s deal with Kivar. Nicholas told Lonnie to kill Max. If she had killed Max, Nasedo’s deal with Kivar would have been impossible. Max wouldn’t be able to father a child with Tess or be turned over to Kivar, if Max were dead. So Nicholas didn’t mindwarp Tess into thinking Nasedo made a deal with Kivar. Nasedo made the deal with Kivar. Tess knowingly tried to carry out the deal. |
Posted 11-24-2003 07:50 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: I love your name, IMAGE: forums.fanforum.com/images/avatars/custom/10070163.gif Roswelldesetsky! Personally, I don’t think Tess was afraid of Kivar. She never indicated that she feared him. I think if she had really been afraid of him, she would have enlisted the help of Max, Michael, and Isabel to protect her from him. The Skins came to Earth before the podsters emerged from their pods. They weren’t sent to Earth to kill the podsters in retaliation for a failed deal. There was no reason for Kivar to think Nasedo broke his deal. The podsters were out of their pods only 10 years. They were young kids when they emerged. They hadn’t been sexually mature when they came out of their pods, so there was no reason for Kivar to think Nasedo broke their deal. A pregnancy would take time to occur. The Skins tried to kill the podsters, because they, along with Courtney, had been responsible for the destruction of their husks. Because Courtney destroyed the husks, Nicholas needed the Granilith so he could go back to Antar, where he wouldn’t need a husk. Nasedo made the deal with Kivar, as Tess told Max. Tess attempted to carry out the deal, because Max wasn’t trying to go to Antar to be king again. Tess also knew that Max probably wouldn’t forgive her for mindwarping Alex to do the translation and then causing his death. Tess was also jealous that Max continued to do things with Liz and think about her, even when he was with Tess. |
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Posted 11-24-2003 08:36 PM by jero
Hey Reggie, wanna campaign for new Roswell that starts after Season 1? A bit of campaign news... Seems the Stargazers want to run this one! quote: If you have any interest in campaigning... Please go the the Can we resurrect Roswell? thread and post what you'd be willing to campaign for. Later, |
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Posted 11-25-2003 05:40 PM by shapeshifter
RoswellDesertSky, are you the same RoswellDesertSky who used to have the website of the same name? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Citrus & Vine, Good point that Tess wasn't afraid of Kvar I also keep thinking about Michael's revelation that Isabel was double crossed by Kvar, that she never intentionally betrayed anyone. And I am pondering the Congresswoman's abuse of Tess in Surprise, which ultimately drew out Isabel. I'm not sure if these two could tie together somehow. Of course, Surprise was basically a festival of gratuitous, scifi choreography culminating in the revelation of The Granolith. |
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Posted 11-26-2003 05:14 PM by The Real Momo
I have to agree that Nasedo made the deal with Kivar. In addition to the above mentioned, we also having Nasedo pushing for a consummation of Max & Tess's relationship in Skin & Bones. That means that Nasedo was looking to produce an heir--long before Nicholas arrives on scene. |
Posted 11-27-2003 08:26 AM by Roswelldesertsky
quote: Nope. I often have to answer this question |
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Posted 11-27-2003 03:58 PM by greenglow
Ok, just a fast post on the so-called 'deal': its clear that Nasedo is pushing for "consumation" between Tess and Max, is the one who planted the idea on Tess, he made that the foundation of her education. Righ from the start Nasedo has an hidden agenda. He is always a dubious character, more a menace than friend. Oh, and a real psycho!! But we will never know what that hidden agenda was, because of the horrendous plot-twist in season 2. No way I will buy the story on "the deal" because it really makes no sense. It's a very big CHAD. Let's face it... Roswell wasn't developed like it was intented initially... that's why we discuss theories like Nicholas mindwarping Tess into thinking there is a deal... |
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Posted 11-28-2003 06:32 PM by Reggie
Roswelldesertsky: I've thought about this deal for so many times, but every theory has a mistake anywhere so that it's probably not the truth. Maybe I post my best theory. If you can find a hole in mine, I'd be glad to hear it. Citrus and Vine: To explain how The-Nasedo-Deal-With-Kivar could be a mindwarp from Nicholas, I think you’d need to explain when Nicholas mindwarped Tess and why. Since Nicholas wanted the Granilith, I think if he had sufficient power, he would get that information from Tess, but he didn’t. The Granilith was still there. Nicholas was powerful, but not powerful enough to stop Tess from destroying all those Skins at the high school. Nicholas made it out of the school alive, but he couldn’t stop Tess from destroying the other Skins. I think that Nikolas MWed Tess near the end of MitC. Lonnie kidnapped her, and gave her to Nikolas; who then planted the (false) memorys of the Deal she was supposed to carry out. This Deal gives Nikolas the best possible outcome: the R4 come back to Antar voluntarily, bringing The Granolyth. Nikolas does not need to do anything more, like collecting The Granolyth or capturing the R4; that's all taken care of. Remember, Nikolas doesn't want The Granolyth; he wants to get it for K' var; as long as K' var gets it, Nikolas's task is fulfilled. It's effectively the same as would have happened, had Max taken the "truce" offered at the Summit (MitC), except that he gets no safeguards. The finger-drumming doesn't start immediately, but when a MW begins breaking down. Since Nikolas was so powerful, Tess's MW was not near enough to breaking down for her to start finger-drumming. The objections to being MWed only come after the MW breaks down completely, which never happened before Tess left. You mention that Nikolas wasn't powerful enough to protect the (other) Skins from Tess's fireball. Remember that Courtney said he was a thousand times more powerful than the kids are. Nikolas himself said that the original King Zan was more powerful than he was; and we concluded that the kids were far weaker than they had been on Antar. It's possible that Tess somehow was able to tap into her original strength for that fireball, and thus overwhelm Nikolas. It's also possible that Nikolas does not have Max's shielding ability, and so could not "protect" the others. His ability may have been to teleport away from danger instead, saving only himself. Nasedo wanted to get the podsters out of Roswell and away from their friends and family, so they would be dependent on him. He wanted them to want to go to Antar. He wanted to fulfill his deal with Kivar. That doesn't follow. He didn't suggest that anyone should leave Roswell, nor should he. Max and the rest are still kids. If they left, they'd be missed; and they aren't mature enough to put up much of a fight anyway. As displaced royalty, they should want to go home. Trying to convince them of that is reasonable, and does not require any deal with K' var. Nasedo didn’t know where Nicholas was, and Nicholas didn’t know where Nasedo was. So Nicholas couldn’t have mindwarped Nasedo into thinking he made a deal with Kivar. No one said he did. It was Tess who was MWed. Her "father" was long dead, and so he couldn't tell her that the "Deal" wasn't real. Nicholas represented Kivar as wanting something different from what was in Nasedo’s deal with Kivar. Nicholas told Lonnie to kill Max. If she had killed Max, Nasedo’s deal with Kivar would have been impossible. Max wouldn’t be able to father a child with Tess or be turned over to Kivar, if Max were dead. So Nicholas didn’t mindwarp Tess into thinking Nasedo made a deal with Kivar. K' var wants the R4, particularly ex-King Max, dead. Nikolas said that he wanted Max dead, but did not "tell Lonnie to kill Max". Furthermore, it's only after her attempt fails that he has the opportunity to MW Tess. Since Max isn't dead, the "deal" can be made. Personally, I don’t think Tess was afraid of Kivar. She never indicated that she feared him. I think if she had really been afraid of him, she would have enlisted the help of Max, Michael, and Isabel to protect her from him. Max tried to kill Tess before she left (Departure), and again when she came back (4A+B). Why would she ask Max to protect her from K' var? Heck, he'd be happy to help K' var! In both cases, Tess was hiding behind Max's child: to hurt her would injure or kill the child. That's why she played up (or invented) danger to the child from K' var. Only that way would she have protection from K' var and Max. Furthermore, in Departure she thought that Mr. H had a deal with K' var and he wouldn't hurt her. Guess that didn't work out, huh? jero: I've been there, and posted. The Real Momo: Not necessarily. Mr. Harding was Tess's guardian. Tess had been Max's wife, and the original plan was for all four to resume their Antarian lives (with Max as King). Tess is entitled to her place as Max's wife, and it's only reasonable for Mr. H to try to get Max to accept her as such; particularly given the affections that Tess seems to have held for Max. "Producing an heir" is not the same as "consummating Max & Tess's relationship". I think that Mr. H would have accepted Liz as queen eventually, if Tess had been provided for. And BTW, I still believe that Tic-tac is the real Nacedo. greenglow: True. Over on the "Can we Resurrect Roswell?" thread, there are rumblings that the original PTB may be willing to tell us just how it was originally indended to run. One can only hope they had a plan... [ 11-28-2003: Message edited Reggie ] |
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Posted 11-30-2003 06:19 PM by The Real Momo
Reggie: Not necessarily. Mr. Harding was Tess's guardian. Tess had been Max's wife, and the original plan was for all four to resume their Antarian lives (with Max as King). Tess is entitled to her place as Max's wife, and it's only reasonable for Mr. H to try to get Max to accept her as such; particularly given the affections that Tess seems to have held for Max. "Producing an heir" is not the same as "consummating Max & Tess's relationship". I think that Mr. H would have accepted Liz as queen eventually, if Tess had been provided for. And BTW, I still believe that Tic-tac is the real Nacedo. I am taking Nasedo's pitch to Max to take on his marital duties as foreshadowing of what was to come. Destiny marks the mission to bring back the Royal 4 to Antar. Skin & Bones to lock in Max & Tess's relationship, pushing for consummation of said relationship in order to produce an heir. While MITC is a very big CHAD, I don't think Tess was mindwarped into thinking there was a deal. The history of Nasedo shows us that in 1959 he was in big trouble. He kills Atherton. He's being pursued by an unseen enemy - FBI, military, Skins? All three? Then he vanishes. Where? If we believe Tess that the Nasedo Pact was fashioned 40+ years ago from Departure that puts the Nasedo Pact as being put in place about 1960-1962. The next time we know Nasedo's hanging around the Southwest in in 1970 when Sheila Harding is killed, then in 1972 when Nasedo begins knocking off the Special Unit operatives. So between 1959 and 1970, Nasedo is MIA. So there is room for Nasedo to have made a deal with the Skins during this time period. Riverdog tells Max & Liz that Nasedo is being hunted by "unknown" people. He has to leave town. He kills Atherton because he knows too much (possibly threatens to expose him or turn him in?). Nasedo tries to leave town. Doesn't make it and is captured by Skins who have been searching for the pod squad since 1950. He's held in captivity until he comes up with the Nasedo Pact. In exchange for his freedom, he turns over the pod squad and Max's heir. For the moment, let's assume he does this under duress. Unlike the Skins, he knows there are Dupes. Instead of the pod squad, he turns over the Dupes (Remember the Whitaker diaries mention that the Skins found some pods about "20 years ago" [about 1970]). We know the Dupes fell into Skin hands. Once Nasedo gives in, the Skins release Nasedo in 1970s Roswell to show them where the pods are. I'm going to take a leap of faith here and say all eight pods are in Roswell, but the two sacs are in separate locations. The Skins take custody of the Dupes and bring them to NY, the center of "intergalatic meetings". The Skins discover the pods have been surgically tampered with (as noted in "Summer of '47" script) and toss them in the sewers. At this point, Kivar has no intentions of bringing them back to Antar. He's in control. He doesn't need them. However, sometime between 1970 and 1989 (when the pods hatch) the Skins discover they've been had. The Dupes are decoys. By this time, the Skins have inflitrated positions of "importance" as noted in Whitaker's diaries including the government. So it's also possible, with their government access, that the Skins are behind The Special Unit. The first record we have is the murder of the SU Director in 1972. In the "Senate Hearing Committee notes", I believe he is noted as the "first" director (I'll go back and try to confirm that). Because they need to recapture Nasedo to find the "real" Royal Four, the Skin plants use the government resources to create The Special Unit. By the time it passes through Congress, it's 1972. The Special Unit tracks Nasedo's whereabouts based on info gleaned from archival records of the 1970 murder of Sheila Hubble. The chase is on across the Southwest. In 1989, the "Royal 3" hatch before Nasedo returns, but he is able to retrieve the youngest of the Royal 4, Tess (or Ava according to your preference) and they hi-tail it out of Roswell for parts unknown. If we are to believe Tess, they are chased for 10 years by Skin-controlled Special Unit. In 1999, we pick up the story from "Pilot", when Max saves Liz. Our assumption has been that Nasedo only learns about the pod squad when Michael signals Nasedo from the library and Nasedo returns the signal in "Into the Woods" near the cave. We see, presumably Nasedo, burn the pod squad's picture in "Blind Date." However, how would Nasedo "see" this symbol if he was not in Roswell and the signal could be seen only by the air? Well, I think he may have already been in Roswell. I think Nasedo knew about Max and Liz from the beginning. If you recall, Nasedo claimed to work for the government. If that's true, then it's possible he had information based on Valenti's contact with Special Unit agent Stevens. Which means that Nasedo's photographs may have been taken from the Special Unit. From this point, when Nasedo burns the photograph, we need to decide what Nasedo's intentions really were. The burning of the photograph could be taken as malicious intent. If that is so, then we must assume that Nasedo had been "gotten to" long before the MITC Chad. Having been discovered the first time, Nasedo must have known he had to deliver the "real goods" this time or die. While Tess could have been used by Nasedo, she did have choice and was not afraid of Nasedo. She implements the Nasedo Pact because Tess, above all, is a survivor and uses any means she can, including baby Zan. Given that, why does Tess come back if she is not even afraid of Kivar? It could be argued that she had to come back because the original mission failed ... the rest of the pod squad had not been delivered. It may not have had anything at all to do with baby Zan being "human". It has been assumed that when baby Zan was "in trouble", Zan contacted Max. Well, what if it were Tess? Tess admitted to using this ploy in "Baby, It's You" to manipulate Max so she would have no scruples about employing this method again. By using Max's attachment to Baby Zan, Tess and Kivar may have thought it was enough for Max to find a way home. When that failed, Kivar may have sent Tess back to Earth using baby Zan as an "excuse" and as "bait" to reel Max in. As for Liz, Nasedo would never have accepted Liz for Tess. "She doesn't belong here," he says in "Destiny and he means it. She's only tolerated because of Max . Had Nasedo lived, this probably would have developed into more of an issue. TicTac, however, probably would have approved of the relationship. The other position we could take is that Nasedo really intended "to protect" the Royal 4 with the Nasedo Pact by delivering up the Dupes and never intended the Nasedo Pact to harm the Royal 4 at all. We do know that Nasedo left Tess with a great deal of information and among that could have been the initial Nasedo Pact. It is possible that Tess could have misread the deal and mistakenly thought herself "safe from Kivar". Through an unfortunate set of circumstances, Tess takes this document as "gospel" because it offers her what she wants most: to go home. In either case, I think there is also probably enough initial background to present the validity of the Nasedo Pact as being real and not just a mindwarped Tess, especially if Tess is considered as "all powerful" because of her "fireball". This CHAD is so "openended" that there are several directions to take the story. [ 11-30-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 11-30-2003: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 11-30-2003 10:11 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Reggie! I suspect you wish to clear Tess of responsibility for intending to hand Max, Michael, and Isabel over to Kivar. Hence, you blame Nicholas and say he mindwarped Tess. Tess, however, shows she is cognizant of what she is doing. She knowingly continued to mindwarp Alex to keep him from talking. She knowingly continued mindwarping Kyle to keep him from talking. Mindwarps were not mind control. Tess could mindwarp, but she couldn’t make Max love her. Max rejected Tess at the cave. He tried to win Liz back. Tess couldn’t make Isabel and Michael fall in love with each other, either. Mindwarps made people think some things were true that weren’t true. Mindwarps couldn’t make people do things. People still maintained free will. If Nicholas had mindwarped Tess into thinking Nasedo made a deal with Kivar, then Tess had the ability to decide what she wanted to do with the information. Nicholas couldn’t make Courtney tell him where the Granilith was, even though he was very powerful in comparison to her. Courtney chose to die, rather than let Nicholas get information from her that she didn’t want him to get. Tess was responsible for her actions. Nasedo made a deal with Kivar 40 years earlier. He raised Tess her entire life to carry out the deal. Tess decided to carry out that deal, when her mindwarping Alex resulted in his death, and when she felt betrayed, because Max continued to think about Liz and spent time doing things with her. |
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Posted 11-30-2003 10:12 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Momo! I love your screencaps! Your site, Momo’s Roswell has many cool things!
quote: I agree with you, Momo, on this point. I further think that Nasedo kept killing people including the heads of the Special Unit, so the Special Unit would continue looking for aliens. Nasedo lost Max, Michael, and Isabel. He needed the resources of the Special Unit to locate them. Valenti contacted the FBI about Liz’s dress and the silver handprint. Nasedo’s strategy in leaving behind silver handprints on bodies worked. Nasedo now knew where Max was. (I think in earlier years, Nasedo didn’t care if he left silver handprints. I think after he lost Max, Michael, and Isabel, he made certain he left silver handprints, so silver handprint information would be reported to the Special Unit.) Nasedo next left the symbol on the ground in Frazier Woods. He wanted to know who the other podsters were, and he wanted to verify that Max really was one of the podsters. Max, Michael, and Isabel found the symbol in Frasier Woods. Michael left a return symbol on the library lawn. He hoped someone would come for him. Nasedo dropped the photograph of the three podsters in the fire he reignited on the library lawn. He was plotting against them.
Nasedo didn’t tell them who he was. He didn’t want them asking him questions. He wanted to control what information they got. He wanted them to want to go to Antar. In order for Nasedo to control Max, Michael, and Isabel, he had to get them away from their family and their friends. That’s why Nasedo got Michael thrown in jail and didn’t get him out. That’s why Nasedo got Max thrown in the White Room and didn’t get him out until Michael, Isabel, and Tess showed up. Nasedo had wanted to get Michael out of jail and Max out of the white room in his own time. He wanted to make them think he had rescued them. He wanted them to continue to be hunted by law enforcement and the Special Unit afterwards, so they would leave their family and friends and do what he would tell them to do. Nasedo’s objective was to fulfill his deal with Kivar. [ 12-03-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 11-30-2003 10:13 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Tess’ priorities changed, after she went to Antar and Zan was born. Tess returned to Earth, because she wanted to save baby Zan. Zan was human. He wasn’t suitable for Kivar’s plans. Kivar wanted to kill Zan. Tess went to Earth, so Kivar couldn’t kill Zan. Tess walked into the Air Base, to keep Zan safe. Tess loved her child. She wanted to protect him. That’s why she left Antar, and why she went back to the base. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/millennium/smiles/224/3e0ca87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/millennium/smiles/224/3e16a87e0.jpg screen caps by momo at Momo’s Roswell |
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Posted 11-30-2003 11:13 PM by Dizzy Romantic girl
Hi all , Just a quick first post to this thread, 'cause I've gotta run: 1. Citrus - windwarps can make people do things... Witness, for example, Tess mindwarping Alex (Z"L) to decode the book - he had no free will in that at all. : 2. quote: Who the goodness gracious me is tic-tac? Saf |
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Posted 11-30-2003 11:43 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Dizzy Romantic girl! Tess didn't have to make Alex work with computers. He loved computers and was good with them. For example, he got into Topolsky's computer and figured out she was FBI. All Tess needed to do, for example, was plant the idea that Isabel asked him to do the translation. Alex loved Isabel. He would have gladly done the decoding for her. Afterward, Tess mindwarped Alex into thinking he had gone to Sweden. She didn't make him go to Sweden. Alex was actually in Las Cruces. Tess suppressed Alex's memory of doing the translation, just like she suppressed Amy's memory of what happened at the UFO Center. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote: Some people called Nasedo "tic tac", because he ate some tic tacs on two separate occasions. Nasedo ate some tic tacs before he got out of the car to bury Hank. After he buried Hank, Nasedo shapeshifted from Hank into a different person. He ate a few more tic tacs then. Nasedo ate some tic tacs on a second occasion, after he left the car as the hitchhiker. (He had been Dr. Margolin, before he shapeshifted.) Some people believe Nasedo wasn't the shapeshifter who ate tic tacs. They believe that a separate shapeshifter, a good shapeshifter, ate them. Some people believe Kal Langley was the shapeshifter who ate tic tacs. However, Kal tried to kill Max on a least two occasions. Kal also said he didn't shapeshift, because he wanted to continue to enhance his sense of taste. [ 12-01-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 12-01-2003 05:10 AM by Dizzy Romantic girl
That's quite interesting... I definitely am of the same opinion, that it was Nasedo that shapeshifted all those times. I don't think he was evil, just without any kind of human side to him, and so ultra-practical, and unconcerned about things (and people) that weren't related to his paricular mission. If Cal and Nasedo had a softer side it would have been interesting to see some time (or even a spin-off) about their experiences and stories. ... Though I still maintain that my idea for the continuation of ROSWELL - that Alex is brought back from the dead in Cal's (Shapeshifting!) body following a massive battle against Cal involving Isabel and maybe Ava (I proposed that Ava's power was to "connect" to people's essences, but that's another story), and therefore continuing after season three but having Alex back (his base form would be as Tom Hanks), as well as Ava, a kind of Tess (unless of course we could get Tess back too - though not a simplistic evil mindwarping hell-biotch!) ... Alex would come back because Isabel would think of him in the last moment, and Ava would unwittingly bring him back... but then that's yet another tangent I'm going off on! ... anyways, gotta get back to this annoying assignment I've spent the day procrastinating over, lol!
IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2128a87e0.jpg Saf [ 12-01-2003: Message edited Dizzy Romantic girl ] |
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Posted 12-02-2003 01:48 PM by The Real Momo
Hi Citrus! Thanks for the kind words about my site. We still have lots to do so it's still a work in progress. Now about Tess ... quote: from Citrus and Vine: quote: While I do think Tess loved baby Zan, however, Tess was not above using baby Zan for her own ends. My point was that Tess could have used baby Zan as a ploy to get Max back to Antar ... that baby Zan was not rejected by Kivar because he was human. Tess says Kivar betrayed her, but may not. Maybe Tess is still lying. Maybe Kivar didn't reject Zan at all. We only have Tess's word and Tess can not be trusted, even with baby Zan. Maybe Kivar sent her back to get Max. Tess says Kivar isn't her enemy and that's true. He obviously doesn't kill her on her return. But Kivar also didn't get what he wanted: Max, Isabel and Michael. So it's possible that Tess used baby Zan by giving Max false messages that his son was in trouble. When he failed to leave Earth, Kivar could have sent Tess and the baby back to Earth as bait. While Tess "sacrifices" herself by going back to the base, we're still not even sure she's dead. There's no body. For all we know, Tess could still be out there lurking. And, if her fireball is any indication of her power, she still could have blown up the base using her powers and gotten away. Remember in Graduation when the Special Unit is talking to the general. They were looking for four aliens not three. Which means there was no trace of Tess, alive or dead, after the explosion. They were still looking for her. In fact, they were not even sure which of them blew up the base. (I'm assuming the military survelliance photo/tapes were secreted in the base, and not given to the Special Unit; therefore destroyed). So the possibly exists that the Special Unit thought Tess was alive and they incorrectly misidentify Liz for Tess as the fourth alien. Slightly ironic to say the least. The other possibly is that the Special Unit thought Nasedo was still alive and misidentified Liz for Nasedo and that they knew Tess was dead. Okay, I digress. Tess's "self-sacrifice" here is legit if we assume she is dead. She made the mess and now she's cleaning it up. But, if Tess is alive, she knows that Max will keep Zan safe, so she is free to "escape". Therein lies the window of opportunity. Ironically, Liz is the only person and witness she can trust ... "What you see before her eyes." By not being able to make people see (in the case, Liz) what is before their eyes, Tess makes her escape by sleight of hand. It's an old magician's trick. You create a visual diversion while all the action is going on somewhere else. By diverting Liz's attention with the explosion, Tess, in the dark, unseen, can make an escape before Liz's eyes. Tess, as survivor and chess master, plays to fight another day. |
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Posted 12-02-2003 07:59 PM by Algieba
Citrus. You just solved a puzzle for me. I hate to admit it but I couldn't figure out what was the significance of Nasedo burning a picture of Max, Michael and Isabel in the library fire. There was that ominous music, the appearance of someone whose face couldn't be seen, the person walking off into the shadows. Really kind of eerie. I kept asking myself, why burn the picture? It made no sense. And then in one moment it's all cleared up. Thank you. I'm missing a lot of these foreshadowing symbols and I'm not sure why. I think I don't pay enough attention to detail. I think now that you've pointed it out, it has to be that Nasedo had it in for the hybrids from the beginning. He also spoke angrily about Isabel to Tess when Isabel came over to visit her at their new home. He was angry with Tess for bringing them to the pod chamber. He didn't like it that Tess was becoming attached to them. So, I'm not convinced Tess was in on it from the beginning but I am convinced about Nasedo. What a shame. I enjoy his dry wit. Why do they make these evil charactters so funny? |
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Posted 12-02-2003 11:57 PM by Citrus and Vine
Oh, Algieba, Nasedo completely cracked me up! When he handed the comb to Michael and smilingly said, “Show time”, I was almost able to forget that he slammed Michael into the door, with no apologies. And when Nasedo entered the café in Pierce’s form, I laughed to hear him say, “You can never find those little pod people when you want them.” A lot of the details I didn’t notice either. People on the boards have been great with discussing details! I think Tess wanted to be accepted by Max, Michael, and Isabel. She thought of them as her family. Nasedo raised her all her life to betray them, but, as you point out, Tess was acting on her own, when she asked Isabel to come into the house. As you also say, Tess acted on her own, when she took Max to the rock formation and had Michael and Isabel go there, too. I think it’s likely that Nasedo produced the “Destiny Book”. (I doubt that the “Destiny Book” was what Alex translated. The book Max had was in the podchamber, where he had hidden it.) I think Nasedo may have used the “Destiny Book” to school Tess about some things. I think Tess accepted the book as real. I think she honestly believed she was destined to be with Max. I think Tess may have added the drawings of what the podsters looked like as children, to convince Max, Michael, and Isabel of the book’s authenticity. At the Evans home, she looked at photographs of Max and Isabel when they were children, so she knew what they looked like when they were younger. The pregnancy pictures may have been originally produced by Nasedo, as part of his effort to convince Tess to get pregnant by Max. The drawings were likely updated to portray all the podsters as they currently looked. Michael looked at the drawings and surmised that he and the others had been engineered. He was right that they were engineered. However, there was no way the people who engineered the podsters would know what hair styles the podsters would choose to wear. Michael looked like Grandpa Dupree. The people who engineered Michael may have known what Grandpa Dupree looked like. But they would not have known that Michael would choose to wear his hair styled the way he did. I think it is almost certain that Grandpa Dupree never wore his hair as Michael did, when Michael looked at the drawings in the book. Grandpa Dupree IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/wafam/tn_family231_jpg.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/1/m2max/tn_max2max013_jpg.jpg Michael’s hairstyle Michael’s hairstyle in the “Destiny” book IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/bd1a87e0.jpg Good morning, afternoon, or evening to everyone! [ 12-03-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 12-03-2003 12:08 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hi momo! I don’t think Tess went to Earth with Zan as a ploy to get Max to go to Antar. Max was going to kill Tess, before she left Earth. ******************************************* Tess asked Liz to take her to the base. Although it could have been Tess’ intention to misdirect Liz into thinking she perished there, I think Tess really expected to die. Tess wanted someone to take her to the base, so that a car wouldn’t be left there that might trace Tess’ steps back to where she had been. Tess could have asked Isabel to take her, since Isabel voted to hand her over. Tess chose to ask Liz to take her, instead. Liz knew that Tess was determined to go to the base. Liz agreed to drive her, because Liz didn’t want Tess to leave a car at the base that could lead investigators to them. Tess asked Liz to take her, because she knew Max and Liz were together. She knew Liz hated her. (Liz used her power to fling Tess bodily backward. Liz made Max promise that Max would make Tess pay for Alex’s death.) Tess thought Liz would be Zan’s stepmother, after she died. She wanted Liz to think of Zan as Max’s son, instead of just Tess’ son. That’s why Tess told Liz about the flashes she saw of Max thinking about Liz, when she and Max kissed. Tess wanted Liz to be happy with Max and to respect Max and Tess’ son, Zan. Tess wanted the best possible outcome for her child. I think Tess really died in the blast on the base. I think so, because baby Zan awoke and cried out, when the blast occurred. I think Zan had an emotional connection to his mother, just as he had to his father. I think Zan’s cry meant that Tess was dead. Again, momo thank you for all your wonderful work! [ 12-03-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 12-03-2003 10:43 AM by The Real Momo
Actually Citrus, my personal view is that Tess is dead. I agree than baby Zan felt it and Liz knew it. Our views are pretty similar, but I always like presenting a flip side of the coin ... a what if scenario, taking the accepted view and flipping it around to see how it plays. However, I think the purpose of asking Liz was not so much about baby Zan as it was Max himself. Tess was genuinely surprised that Liz did not vote against her ... knowing that Liz hated her and her feelings for Max. But this was the final opportunity to set things right for Tess ... to erase the doubts that Liz would have about Max's feelings for Tess. This was part of Tess's atonement and she was able to make this gesture because Liz spared her. While Max repeatedly told Liz that he didn't love Tess or didn't love her the same way as he loved her, Liz was never sure because Max really hadn't dealt with his Antarian past and how his past life affected his present life. She couldn't feel what his true feelings for Tess were and the reason she couldn't feel it was because Tess didn't have a place in his heart. Conversely, Tess tells us that everytime she was with Max, Liz was there in his flashes. Max couldn't hide his love of Liz from Tess. That's when Liz finally realizes that Max really does love her and anything that happened in the past between Max/Tess (Zan/Ava) was dead. I think Liz's anger was more directed toward Max not the baby. I don't think it was in Liz's nature to take it out against baby Zan. Her issues were with Max and his behavior. In fact, in Four Aliens, Liz actually touches baby Zan. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/millennium/smiles/224/3e6ba87e0.jpg So I think the root of the problem is Max, not his son. |
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Posted 12-03-2003 02:04 PM by Citrus and Vine
I like that you explore the flip side of things! It helps me to understand why I think the way I do. I don’t think Liz had any problem with Zan, either. I think Tess was astute enough, however, to understand that Liz hated her. It didn’t take much for her to be able to figure that out. Tess also knew that Max had wanted to kill her. So why would Tess be willing to leave Zan with Max and Liz, since Zan was her child, too, and they both had harsh feelings towards her? Why would a person be willing to let her child be raised by people who hated her? Tess knew that Max loved Zan, because he was unwilling to kill Tess on the chance that she might really have a special bond with Zan that would result in Zan’s death, if Tess died. Tess didn’t know how Liz felt about Zan. She couldn’t dreamwalk people the way Isabel could. Tess asked Liz why she hadn’t voted to turn Tess in. Liz answered that she wasn’t a killer. That meant that Liz probably wouldn’t kill Zan. But Liz’s answer didn’t say anything about how she felt about Zan. Liz didn’t say, for example, that she didn’t want Zan to be without his mother, and that that was the reason she had voted not to turn Tess in. At the fence, Tess told Liz that Max loved her, because at Michael’s apartment, Tess observed that Max and Liz were a couple. She wouldn’t have known otherwise what Max’s romantic relationship with anyone was. Tess also told Liz about the flashes Max had when she and Max kissed. The fact that Max continued to think about Liz and do things with Liz, even after Liz broke up with Max were some of the reasons Tess became disillusioned with Max. Tess had expected Max to love her the way she loved him before they even met. She had mindwarped him an attempt to get him to love her, after Isabel informed her that Max said Liz was his soul mate. Mindwarping didn’t change Max’s feelings for Liz. Max fell out of love with Liz, after she had broken up with him at the cave and then pretended to sleep with Kyle to prove she only wanted to be with normal boys. Future Max disappeared, because Max fell out of love with Liz. Liz might have been able to get back together with Max, if she hadn’t been so fearful that Max might one day remember Tess and love her instead. In fact, Liz would have stayed with Max at the cave, if she had been able to overcome her fear about Max’s possible future feelings for Tess. Tess chose to ask Liz to take her to the base, because she wanted Zan to have the best possible outcome in his life. The fact that Liz had voted not to turn Tess in, gave Tess hope that Zan might be safe with Max and Liz. Simply leaving Zan with Max and Liz wasn’t enough to give Zan a good home. Zan needed to have parents who loved each other. Telling Liz about the flashes Max had, when they kissed, reassured Liz that she (Liz) was loved by Max, even when he was with Tess. Tess couldn’t dreamwalk. She didn’t know exactly what Max’s feelings were for her or for Liz. Tess didn’t discuss Max’s feelings for herself or for Liz with him. She saw flashes of Max thinking about Liz, but she had no way of knowing their significance. Tess overlooked the ways Max showed her he loved her. Tess hadn’t wanted Max to think about Liz. She was afraid that Max didn’t love her (Tess), despite his being with her. She didn’t value Max’s love for her. After Tess’ spaceship crashed, Tess did the best with what she had to safeguard Zan’s future. She decided to return to the base. Before she entered, she gave Liz information about Max that she thought might make a difference to Liz. Liz was very happy to hear Tess say that Max loved her (Liz), and that every time Max and Tess were together, every time they kissed, Tess saw flashes of Max thinking about Liz. Before Tess entered the compound, she was reassured by Liz’s reaction that she was leaving Zan in good hands with Liz and Max. Liz was no longer angry with Tess. Liz wouldn’t take out her hatred of Tess on Zan, because Liz no longer hated Tess. She was grateful to Tess for what she said. Tess was a good mother to Zan. She loved him very much. IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/3/4alien/tn_fbaby299_jpg.jpg |
Posted 12-03-2003 09:11 PM by Reggie
quote: Tic-tac is what we called the first shapeshifter that we saw. He characteristicly ate tic-tac candies after shapeshifting. When he shapeshifted, his features visibly melted from one shape to the other. He also seemed to watch over the three original podsters, in a parental way. This is in contrast to the second shapeshifter we saw, who was introduced as Mr. Harding, Tess's "father". That one never ate tic-tacs, and "flashed" from one shape to another. He never "melted", just gave off a bright light which gave way to a different shape. He also does not seem to have watched over the podsters (only Tess), nor to have any parental affection for them. Two different special effects, two different behaviors: clearly, these are two different characters. I think our own Shapeshifter has an area of her website covering this topic. We beat it to death several years ago. |
Posted 12-07-2003 05:51 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Yes indeed. For instance, see: here. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm in the middle of making a January 2004 calendar for my desktop, and it seemed fitting to use images from A Tale of Two Parties, and, being a member of the RBI, I couldn't resist slpicing (though not perfectly) the shots of the bulletin board out side the 24/7 fast food joint on which was posted the clue to the Enigma party. |
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Posted 12-08-2003 05:44 PM by Vihmakass
Today I was rewatching TEOTW...and first time I realaised that Liz sacrifice was important not only to their relationship, notfor her need to grow but...for Tess.Yes, yes...Im not crazy. Tess who come to Roswell was mostly alien, her human side was in minority and she liked that. In MITC she acepted her human side, she wants be more human, be dif. from NY4...but same time she wants be important, have power - be queen, have Max's love back...her alien side and human side starting fight And if writers in future or in fanfic want from this they can do great story. sry. this was just random thought... [ 12-08-2003: Message edited Vihmakass ] |
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Posted 12-08-2003 07:57 PM by Dizzy Romantic girl
Vihmakass - You know what, you're the first person who has been able to articulate some kind of reason why The End of the World can make sense! - I've been at a loss to try to find a way for what they said to be true without totally destroying ROSWELL as we know and love it, but your explanation really does make sense! That having been said, Departure is still stupid and doesn't fit in with the rest of ROSWELL or make any sense. ... But maybe TEotW can, to a certain extent, be redeemed by your theory. Saf |
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Posted 12-09-2003 06:15 PM by Reggie
I wasn't home this weekend, and I've got to go back out tomorrow morning. I'll post when I can; but there's a lot to talk about. BTW: It's time for a new thread. Somebody want to start it? |