| Forums 4 Fans » Television » Roswell |
| Topic Subject: RBI #3: Trying to figure out what happened! |
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Posted 12-14-2003 08:38 PM by Reggie
Welcome to the Roswell Bureau of Investigation! Here sluething of details, plots, and myths abound. We used to study just "The Importance of Liz to Alien Mythology", but Roswell got more complicated than that. Now, we're trying to untangle everything! Our previous thread is here. Please remember two rules: Don't be annoying, and don't be easily annoyed. You don't have tbe disagreeable just because you disagree: We're all friends here, so let's be friendly. Post away! [ 12-14-2003: Message edited Reggie ] |
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Posted 12-14-2003 09:39 PM by shapeshifter
Way to go, Reggie! It's about time you started the thread! The last thread is also archived here. Did anyone notice how the opening scene for the new Battlestar Gallactica was so much like the scene from Max In The City where Max gets his head examined? |
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Posted 12-15-2003 10:58 AM by Reggie
Not particularly, no. It resembled that scene from MitC to you? And I usually leave thread starting to the thread parent(s), but since the previous thread had been closed, and was working its way down Page 2, I figured someone had to do something. |
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Posted 12-15-2003 11:13 AM by locutus of borg
The only Roswell "similarity" that I picked up on, was the Cylon woman spy that was with Baltar. She reminded me a whole lot of Tess. BTW, what did "youse gize" think of the "new" BG? It took me about an hour to really get into it, but by the time it was over, I thought that it was several orders of magnitude better than the original series. Better plot lines, FAR, FAR better acting and directing, and more reralistic characters, and better dialogue. But that's just my opinion. What's yours? We are the Borg [ 12-15-2003: Message edited locutus of borg ] |
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Posted 12-15-2003 11:42 AM by Reggie
BSG was flat, like soda pop without the fizz. The characters didn't have enough screen time devoted to each of them to make any of them really engaging. The plotline was filled with "set pieces": We saw a cute girl, waiting for her parents. Obviously, she gets killed. BTW, the ship she's on: Ever see Run Silent, Run Deep? "Stardoe" did not seem to have much personality, besides being a pale version of Becca Valentine (Andromeda). Making Boomer a secret Cylon is a bad idea, too. Worst, IMHO, was the presentation of Earth's location as a lie told by Adama, rather than a mystery that Adama and the others can unravel to find Earth. This series is built on a fraud, rather than Hope. Bad as it was, I like the original one better. And it had theme music, too. |
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Posted 12-15-2003 11:52 AM by locutus of borg
I guess that we will just have to "agree to disagree" about that one.
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Posted 12-15-2003 09:20 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Maybe it wasn't exactly the opening scene of BG? It was the scene where the human with the briefcase is falling asleep at the negotiating table 'cause the Cylons haven't shown up to the annual summit in 40 years. But then in struts a Tall Tess, who procedes to lap dance the unsuspecting dirty old man human. Any way, the scene reminded me of the MITC scene where the human cell phone with the brief case scans Max's head for the royal seal (but without the cool music). BTW, I read that BG was originally written by someone with Mormon roots, hence the parallel to the exiles of the 12 tribes of Israel stumbling upon the lost tribe in the new world. The idea of the Roswell/Antarian royal four from the 5 planets isn't that different, especially if you consider the humans to be descended from aliens, as Zero liked to speculate.
I'm reading Douglas Adams The Restaurant at the End of the Universe. He refers to "Antarean lizards." Also, on page 223, I had a Roswellian Sexual Healing moment in a campy sort of way when reading: quote: [ 12-15-2003: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Posted 12-20-2003 04:41 PM by locutus of borg
quote:
We are the Borg |
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Posted 12-20-2003 08:36 PM by greenglow
Hey Can't comment on BSG... maybe someone will air it here next year Shapeshifter, that's so odd! Hi LOB! Thanks for the new thread Reggie! [ 12-20-2003: Message edited greenglow ] |
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Posted 12-21-2003 07:40 PM by locutus of borg
Greenglow Shapeshifter Reggie We are the Borg |
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Posted 12-21-2003 09:26 PM by shapeshifter
I'm leaving town for 2 weeks tomorrow, but will probably be able to check in. I'm working on a website for my brother-in-law, and needed a Welsh dragon. This one: IMAGE: www.ealaindraoi.com/images/artwork/ceaw06-018.jpg reminds me a lot of the image on Liz's window. I can't find a screen cap of it at the moment. Anyone else? And now I'm thinking about this bit of dialog regarding the movie, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon:
MICHAEL: I just call it like I see it. MAX: You can't compare The Matrix with Crouching Tiger. MICHAEL: Crapping Tiger is a chick flick with kung fu. MAX: First of all, Crapping…Crouching Tiger is actually about something: Love, honor, duty. MICHAEL: Matrix is about something: Illusion, reality, gunfire. MAX: You simply cannot prefer Keanu Reeves to Michelle Yeoh. You can't. I won't let you. |
Posted 12-21-2003 10:23 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Here's one from Crashdown Media*Blvd site. It is a view of the dragon from outside the window—no color, mostly silhouette (remove the *) |
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Posted 12-24-2003 06:36 PM by Algieba
I watched BSG hoping for a new scifi story I could get into but was very disappointed. I liked the Cylon fighters, the visuals of weapons streaking toward targets with trails of light, some of the special effects, but the characters were not appealing to me. I did see some comparisons to Roswell but mostly in the dark themes of death and betrayal. The death of the human race was bleak and painful but I was able to get a sense of what it would really be like to have a whole race of people, a whole planet, destroyed. If you think of Roswell in that light, there was the threat of the destruction of the human race from TEOTH. It is more sobering to contemplate when human suffering is shown instead of just talked about. I know they were trying to make the characters more realistic and flawed in BSG but they flawed them right out of whatever sympathy I might have been able to muster for them. An alcoholic second in command, a leader who lies to his people because he can't inspire them with the truth, a president who admits she's more concerned about her own mortality than the end of the world and a so called hero hot shot pilot who admits she caused the death of someone she loved because she wanted him to be something he couldn't ever be. Starbuck's confession about Apollo's brother is something you'd like to think doesn't happen but it does. I knew a helicopter pilot who trained others and was unable to flunk anyone unless they were grossly incompetent. He just couldn't bring himself to wash someone out. Not a nice thought since those same helicopters in training fly right over my house on their practice sessions. Max jumping from his own body to Clayton's was quite a stretch for me but BSG went even further. Machines created by humans somehow learn to make themselves immortal by moving their consciousness to another body. I just find that so unbelievable that it made the Cylons seem ridiculous. The original BSG was more of a family show and kids loved it. The mature nature of the new one excludes kids so I take it they're trying to appeal to adults, specifically males, given the sexual nature of the new Cylons (there wasn't a single sexy male Cylon) and more specifically, white males, since there wasn't a single major black character. I guess they've targeted a certain audience that they think will draw advertisers, but I would have liked something I could recommend to my young, racially diverse students. |
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Posted 12-24-2003 07:18 PM by locutus of borg
Algieba, I guess the reason I liked BG so much better than the original was because it was more adult. The original, with Lorne Greene, was so juvenile, and so fanatically politically correct that it turned off many adults. I agree with you that it's not exactly a family program, but most science fiction isn't. Roswell was one of the great exceptions. Roswell appealed to many 10 year olds, and to many 60 year olds. Very few SciFi programs can do that. We are the Borg [ 12-24-2003: Message edited locutus of borg ] |
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Posted 12-24-2003 11:36 PM by Reggie
Ok, here comes the MondoPost! The Real Momo: Perhaps eventually; but since both Max and Tess are in human bodies, an heir of their flesh would be human. I would expect that such an heir should properly be alien: a "Skin" occupant, a Shapeshifter, a Twylonian, whatever. So, the actual production of an heir should be delayed until both Max and Tess were re-installed in their proper alien bodies (presumably, clones of their original bodies). Resumption of Max's original relationship with his "young bride" is a seperate issue, and could be addressed while they were in any form, human or alien. In either case, I think there is also probably enough initial background to present the validity of the Nasedo Pact as being real and not just a mindwarped Tess, especially if Tess is considered as "all powerful" because of her "fireball". This CHAD is so "openended" that there are several directions to take the story. I see what you mean, but I'm a little more sanguine about figuring things out. Tess can't be "all-powerful", because she's like the other Podsters who aren't. The fireball is explicable as an example of "hysterical strength", which is a familiar human property. Otherwise, we'd have to consider it a straight deus-ex-machina; to extract the Podsters from their defeat by Nikolas's Skins. This would imply that JK and the Moonshine Band were nothing more than unimaginitive hacks who had no better idea. The history of Nasedo shows us that in 1959 he was in big trouble. He kills Atherton. He's being pursued by an unseen enemy - FBI, military, Skins? All three? Then he vanishes. Where? If we believe Tess that the Nasedo Pact was fashioned 40+ years ago from Departure that puts the Nasedo Pact as being put in place about 1960-1962. The next time we know Nasedo's hanging around the Southwest in in 1970 when Sheila Harding is killed, then in 1972 when Nasedo begins knocking off the Special Unit operatives. So between 1959 and 1970, Nasedo is MIA. So there is room for Nasedo to have made a deal with the Skins during this time period. Riverdog tells Max & Liz that Nasedo is being hunted by "unknown" people. He has to leave town. He kills Atherton because he knows too much (possibly threatens to expose him or turn him in?). Nasedo tries to leave town. Doesn't make it and is captured by Skins who have been searching for the pod squad since 1950. He's held in captivity until he comes up with the Nasedo Pact. In exchange for his freedom, he turns over the pod squad and Max's heir. For the moment, let's assume he does this under duress. Whoa, whoa, whoa! That's a whole lot of assumptions there! First, we don't know who killed Atherton or why. If we've got two shapeshifters running around loose, then it could have been either one of them. Since one was captured by the Army (in 1947), they likely lost touch with each other. Tic-tac could have been cultivating Atherton (and River Dog) as allies, and Harding killed Atherton because he'd "discovered" too much and was publishing it. Something similar could have happened with Sheila Harding; or one of them could have thought she was a Skin. We know that the Army was persuing aliens, and that the Army does not have civilian police power. (See "posse comitatus laws".) It's appropriate and likely that after the initial Roswell investigation wound up, the persuit was handed off to the FBI. Since J. Edgar Hoover was in charge for ages, it's also possible that the head (and staff) of the alien-hunting unit would also be retained over the years. It makes security simpler, after all. By this time, the Skins have inflitrated positions of "importance" as noted in Whitaker's diaries including the government. So it's also possible, with their government access, that the Skins are behind The Special Unit. It makes more sense if the Skins, once they had established themselves, used the pre-existing FBI unit to find the podsters. As long as the natives are doing the work, why not let them? Since the Shapeshifters were escaping from K' var, it's likely that they expected to be followed. (Heck, that's probably why they crashed or were shot down in the first place!) They would have expected the Skins. With the FBI also on their trail, it's no wonder that they both vanish. In that time frame, it shouldn't be hard: they could hide as migrant farm workers, refugees from Europe (which would cover a lot), or as truck drivers. At the time, multiple (false) doccumentation for drivers was normal. A truck driver who claimed to be a refugee from (say) Czechoslovakia would have an odd accent, iffy paperwork, and miss common cultural references; but still be capable of reading a map, have excellent mechanical abilities, good work ethics, etc. This is a good employee! We don't know why Sheila Harding died. It did attract the attention of the FBI, though. Who benefited? This may be why someone started to kill the Special Unit agents; they were closing in, and Harding (?) had to defend himself. It could even be that she was killed by a Skin, to incriminate one of the shapeshifters or just to "prime the pump" somehow. It did get her husband going, and that created another problem for the aliens. So there is room for Nasedo to have made a deal with the Skins during this time period. Nasedo tries to leave town. Doesn't make it and is captured by Skins (...) until he comes up with the Nasedo Pact. In exchange for his freedom, he turns over the pod squad and Max's heir. This doesn't make sense. Since Nikolas had "Nacedo", and could mindrape him to find out the location of The Granolyth and all the Podsters, why deal? Why wait? Interrogate him, and kill them or bring them home for disposal. The Skins get home before there's any problem with their husks. Sounds good to me! (Remember the Whitaker diaries mention that the Skins found some pods about "20 years ago" [about 1970]). We know the Dupes fell into Skin hands. Are the "Whitaker diaries" canon? I've heard of them; never bothered to read them as that site seemed more like fanfic than anything else. And Ava referred to her "Protector", not Nikolas or any skin. There's too much missing info about the Dupes; it could even be that the Dupes sought out the Skins, to bargain for a trip home. Clearly, Lonnie was working on that possibility. Our assumption has been that Nasedo only learns about the pod squad when Michael signals Nasedo from the library and Nasedo returns the signal in "Into the Woods" near the cave. We see, presumably Nasedo, burn the pod squad's picture in "Blind Date." However, how would Nasedo "see" this symbol if he was not in Roswell and the signal could be seen only by the air? Well, I think he may have already been in Roswell. I think Nasedo knew about Max and Liz from the beginning. If you recall, Nasedo claimed to work for the government. If that's true, then it's possible he had information based on Valenti's contact with Special Unit agent Stevens. Which means that Nasedo's photographs may have been taken from the Special Unit. From this point, when Nasedo burns the photograph, we need to decide what Nasedo's intentions really were. The burning of the photograph could be taken as malicious intent. We've believed that Tic-tac had been "around" for some time. It could just as easily be that Tic-tac was making the original light show (in ITW), to alert Harding that it was time to come in from the cold, and bring Tess. He may have had no other way to contact Harding, since he moved around so much. (Both Shapeshifters knew about all the Podsters from the beginning, of course!) The reply by Michael on the Library lawn may have been unexpected by the shapeshifters; but a Skin agent (local, or sent in) would have recognised it, and reacted with malice. Since CongresSkin Whitaker had been in the area, it makes sense to believe that there were other Skins around; and that they had photos or "artist's concepts" of the podsters. There is no need to suppose one of the Shapeshifters is a double agent, when there are legitimate villains in the game. As for Liz, Nasedo would never have accepted Liz for Tess. "She doesn't belong here," he says in "Destiny" and he means it. She's only tolerated because of Max . Had Nasedo lived, this probably would have developed into more of an issue. TicTac, however, probably would have approved of the relationship. As King, it's Max's prerogative to take a wife without a veto by his retainers. Put that way, Mr. Harding would have submitted; especialy since Tess and Kyle were developing a relationship. With Tess provided for and happy, honor would be satisfied; and the eight could have proceded to fulfill whatever destinies awaited them. Citrus and Vine: I believe that it makes far more sense, both within the story and as a good story itself, to have Nikolas behind Tess's actions; as his CW was behind the attempt to "turn" Isabel, and he himself was behind the attempt to entrap Max. In this third try, his attempt was successful. In my fanfics, Tess is redeemed, and Nikolas would (eventually) go after Michael. It's a meta- story arc, if you see what I mean. If Nicholas had mindwarped Tess into thinking Nasedo made a deal with Kivar, then Tess had the ability to decide what she wanted to do with the information. Tess, however, shows she is cognizant of what she is doing. She knowingly continued to mindwarp Alex to keep him from talking. She knowingly continued mindwarping Kyle to keep him from talking. Absolutely correct ! (Bet you didn't expect me to agree, did you? ) Likewise, it's not in Alex's nature to drop school, friends and family to go off to work in Las Cruces. This is not something Tess could have managed at her power's strength. Nikolas, on the other hand, could easily manage that; as well as organizing the college accomidations, computer time, the entire use of not-Leanna, etc. Again, the villain behind the scenes is Nikolas: good storytelling. Locutus of Borg: I agree with you that it's not exactly a family program, but most science fiction isn't. Roswell was one of the great exceptions. Sure, the original BSG was rather juvenile, but I took it as camp. C'mon now: the Lords of COBOL? Exiled after the Fortran Wars, right? And the vast majority of sci-fi is family-friendly. Remember, it's written in magazines, with minimal romance; let alone s-x. The plots are action-oriented, and/or scientific puzzles. Roswell added first-rate romance to mediocre fantasy to produce S1. In S2, they added non-science fiction, which rapidly degenerated into nonsense fiction. |
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Posted 12-26-2003 07:42 PM by Seive
I've just started reading this thread, so I'm new to this. I do have to disagree with the idea that Tess was somehow mindwarped, or controlled in some fashion. While it seems to absolve Tess of alot of responsibility, I've never seen any indication that Nicholas was exerting that kind of influence. I admit, too, that I've always found the idea that Tess is an alien with really weak powers to also be something that's hard to swallow. It's almost (forgive me) laughable to think that Tess was with Nasedo for 10 long years, that she was his partner-in-crime so to speak, and the best that she can come up with is a one minute mindwarp before she's breathlessly panting that she couldn't hold it any longer. Sure. The show, for me, presented a Tess who mindwarped Alex for months, something that Alex accused her of and something that she admitted to in the podchamber. The fact that she admits her guilt lets me know that she's a little more powerful than she has let on. And, considering her duplicitious nature, it makes more sense for me to believe that she was misleading everyone as to exactly how powerful she was when she was seemingly tapped out so quickly whenever she mindwarped. "Being with Nasedo has taught me a few things," can be taken two ways. It can mean that she has a little bit of knowledge, or it can mean that she is a whole lot more powerful than she is leading everyone to believe. The mere fact that she seemingly had limited powers, because she supposedly could only hold her mindwarps for moments at a time, suggests that either she's misrepresenting her abilities, or Nasedo had 10 years where he taught her basically nothing ... either that or she's a really lousy study. And her admission of guilt in the podchamber, that Alex's mind was weakened by the mindwarps until he died (with no evidence of anyone else helping out) leads me to believe that she lied about exactly what she could do. |
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Posted 12-26-2003 09:44 PM by locutus of borg
Sieve, ITA! Tess lied about everything at all times. IMNSHO, she was truly the "evil mindwarpng bitch from hell." Reggie, I must respectfully disagree that most SciFi is family oriented. Battlestar Galactica (original) and Lost in Space were, of course, but the biggies, like the Star Trek programs, Stargate, Dune, Starship Troopers, etc, dealt with some pretty heavy material. Quite a bit of romance in the Star Trek programs too. No heavy graphic sex, of course, but some pretty profound suggestion. I agree that the new BSG was a little heavy on the "adult" themes, but perhaps that's because they were trying to separate it from the original. They portrayed young military people much more realistically than the original. (I had forgotten about the Lords of Cobol, and the Fortran wars. LOL!!) It wasn't perfect by a long shot, but at least, thank God, it wasn't so sickeningly "politically correct." |
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Posted 12-26-2003 10:46 PM by Reggie
Originally posted by locutus of borg: Tess lied about everything at all times. IMNSHO, she was truly the "evil mindwarpng bitch from hell." Resistance is irrelevent. You will be assimilated. I must respectfully disagree that most SciFi is family oriented. Battlestar Galactica (original) and Lost in Space were, of course, but the biggies, like the Star Trek programs, Stargate, Dune, Starship Troopers, etc, dealt with some pretty heavy material. Quite a bit of romance in the Star Trek programs too. No heavy graphic sex, of course, but some pretty profound suggestion. That's a short list of fairly recent TV shows and movies. The vast majority of sci-fi is published in magazines like Analog (formerly Astounding SF), TMF&SF, Isaac Asimov's, and others; not to mention books and series of books. And while yes, some has reference to sex (Heinlein's "Time Enough for Love", for example), it's nothing like as graphic as you'd get in a James Bond movie. And those movies are tame compared to some of the fanfic I've read. Mind you, I'm talking sex; philosophy (truly adult material, not adolescent... but that's a pet peeve) has often been a part of Sci-Fi. The Lensmen series revolved around the struggle between Good and Evil; so did Babylon 5. |
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Posted 12-27-2003 09:33 AM by locutus of borg
Your points are well taken. I was think of TV and movie SciFi. Some of the FanFic I've seen is little more than hard, XXX porn. Much of it, though is well written. Wow! It's been several decades since I've even thought about, or heard reference made to the "Lensmen" series, or any other of E.E. "Doc" Smith's works. I was a big fan of Smith in the early sixties. If you like "philosophical" SciFi, mixed with a lot of real "Rambo" type action, read Robert Doherty's "Area 51" series. He's verbose in the extreme, but he's still worth reading. We are tye Borg |
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Posted 12-27-2003 11:10 AM by Reggie
Then let me refresh your memory with the "The Dark Star Passes" series by John W Campbell. Or the Skylark series. Or the series by Hal Clement: Mission of Gravity, & Starlight (excellent aliens); and Needle, & Through the Eye of a Needle which is intended as a juvenile series. There is also the "juvenile" Space Cadet series, written by (IIRC) "Robert Anson". As in, Robert Anson Heinlein. There's so much good stuff out there, and good writers. Why does Sci-Fi have such dreck produced and run? Are they preparing to have more Mystery Science Theater 3000 episodes? And, to get back on topic, wouldn't it be wonderful if someone with such talent had been working on Roswell? We'd have much less to wonder about, and more to wonder at. |
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Posted 12-27-2003 06:02 PM by shapeshifter
Aloha from my mom & dad's home where I can eat papaya for breakfast and avocado for lunch from my dad's garden. *First time in 3 years* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I think we will never be able to resolve the true nature of Tess unless it is in a new Roswell, which happens to include Tess (think Smallville and the various incarnations of Superman) and in which it addresses the whole Alex-was-mindwarped-for-months-long-distance-while-Tess-went-on-living-a-normal-teenage-life-in-Roswell business. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:I watched for the same reasons, but was somewhat intrigued, even though there wasn't a romance on the level of Max & Liz in the Roswell "Pilot."
quote:I got bored with the weapons and targets stuff. It seemed concocted to appeal to the BG gamers. quote:None of these things bothered me too much, perhaps because I viewed them as starting points for character growth in a series. In contrast, Max & Liz started out as very appealing characters, and a lot of their "growth" was in the wrong direction, although I think there was an effort in "Graduation" to indicate future positive growth. quote:I thought there was a hint that these humanoids were developing souls--that the blond perhaps really did want to be loved. While I don't think this is a very original idea (thinking of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein even), I think it's actually quite realistic. I heard a physics/computer guru on National Public Radio a couple of years ago talking about computers taking over in the future. quote:Algieba, although I disagreed with a lot of your points, I still think they're valid, and that you have given voice to the opinions of many who watched. |
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Posted 12-27-2003 08:52 PM by locutus of borg
Reggie, ITA that there are/were some great SciFi writers around, and it's a damn shame they weren't used in some capacity in Roswell. Of course, some of the best, like Asimov and Herbert are dead, but there are many others The problem, as I see it, was that Roswell itself was as much of a "hybrid" as the three "hybrid" characters. The show was a teen-angst-Romance-SciFi hybrid. I think Melinda Metz should have been more involved both from the beginning, and all the way to the end. Ditto Jonathan Frakes and Thania St. John. I can't imagine Asimov, Heinlein, Smith, Anderson, Doherty or any of the other "Biggies" wanting to be involved with a show that was more than 50 percent romantic relationships. But I think Roswell broke new ground. This was a first in melding SciFi, romance and teen-angst into one program. Roswell appealed to many folks that do not like traditional SciFi OR traditional romance. It also appealed to ALL age groups and both sexes. Perhaps we'll never get our beloved Roswell back in any form, and obviously the fans will never agree on what all went wrong, or what could or should have been done differently. But the cult following that Roswell has built up will eventually get the attention of producers and sponsors everywhere, and it's just possible, that in the years to come, Roswell will be analyzed thoroughly, and a new series will rise from the ashes. Possibly even better than Roswell, because the writers/producers/directors will have learned from the mistakes made in Roswell, and be able to correct them. Roswell broke new ground, and when you break new ground, you almost never get it completely right the first time. Roswell came close, though! We are the Borg |
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Posted 12-28-2003 07:04 PM by Reggie
Shapeshifter: Aloha from my mom & dad's home where I can eat papaya for breakfast and avocado for lunch from my dad's garden. Aloha from the icy Northeast, where I can eat hot oatmeal from an envelope for breakfast! The I Dream of Jeannie series started out with Dr. Bellows recognizing Jeannie from earlier encounters, but eventually each new episode built on random plot developments from the past and threw out anything that didn't work. Roswell did this too, but without the consistancy that IDOJ had due to fewer writers. That's why (for a Roswell revival) I've been enamored of the idea of hiring an Editor, preferably from a sci-fi magazine. They have experience keeping plotlines (and "science") straight. Who did that for Roswell? I don't recall seeing a credit for a "Head Writer". Algieba: You both have a point, but it seems to me you have to have a plausible character to start with. For example, no ExO who is incapable of doing his job will have that job for more than a moment. The ExO on BSG was incapable, therefore unbelievable. Stardoe would not have been a flight instructor at her age; those are pilots who are too "old" for combat; and if she were, she'd know better than to pass someone unqualified. (Planes are expensive.) And so on... it just seemed too contrived. I thought there was a hint that these humanoids were developing souls--that the blond perhaps really did want to be loved. While I don't think this is a very original idea (thinking of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein even), I think it's actually quite realistic. I heard a physics/computer guru on National Public Radio a couple of years ago talking about computers taking over in the future. Well, the original Cylons were supposed to be soulless machines who'd taken over from a reptilian race. It may be possible that a computer could have a soul (define "soul"... ) but I don't think it could be disloyal to a racial drive. The will to destroy Mankind would have been programmed in at the factory. As for NPR, I suspect that selecting interviewees is a result of, rather than an initiator of, a creative process. But then, the NPR shows I listen to are Car Talk and (when I can find it) Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. The problem, as I see it, was that Roswell itself was as much of a "hybrid" as the three "hybrid" characters. The show was a teen-angst-Romance-SciFi hybrid. I can't imagine Asimov, Heinlein, Smith, Anderson, Doherty or any of the other "Biggies" wanting to be involved with a show that was more than 50 percent romantic relationships. I think Melinda Metz should have been more involved both from the beginning, and all the way to the end. Ditto Jonathan Frakes and Thania St. John. TSJ seems to have been associated with many good things in Roswell. If JF had been more involved (instead of doing "Clockstoppers"), one can only wonder. Surely, having been involved with Star Trek, he would have had more respect for the fans. Certainly "Trekies" are notorious for their attention to detail; the CHAD count should never gotten that high. As for the sci-fi / romance hybrid; well, Asimov prided himself on writing the first sci-fi / mystery stories, with R. Daniel Olivaw. Heinlein had some definite romance in Time Enough for Love, and others. Teen angst? Try his short story, "The Menace from Earth". I disagree: I think some of the "biggies" would have had a field day with Roswell. As for MM... well, she didn't originate Roswell. She was working from a concept supplied by her publisher; and she was no great sci-fi writer anyway. But the cult following that Roswell has built up will eventually get the attention of producers and sponsors everywhere, and it's just possible, that in the years to come, Roswell will be analyzed thoroughly, and a new series will rise from the ashes. Possibly even better than Roswell, because the writers/producers/directors will have learned from the mistakes made in Roswell, and be able to correct them. Well, that would be interesting. Then again, there'll never be another Rocky Horror Picture Show. |
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Posted 12-29-2003 05:39 PM by greenglow
Hey guys just my little contribution for the romance & sci-fi subject (I can't do a big post, I'm too sleepy for that ). In Anne McCafrey's 'Dragonriders of Pern' series of novels (at least the first one was aworded Hugo and Nebula, I think) romance, angst, emotions, all play a role central to the story. So there are precedents But I agree Roswell, at its best, was breaking new ground, the way it was packed toghether. |
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Posted 12-30-2003 10:49 AM by locutus of borg
Greenglow, I haven't read that series. Is it SciFi, or Fantasy? I know that today most pholks don't make a distinction between the two, but I'm old school, and I still do. It really is interesting to speculate on what could have happened if good SciFi had been used. I think that Melinda Metz was very good at teen angst, but a little weak on romance, and very weak on SciFi. What do you think the series would have been like if Melinda Meta had done all of the angst, and if Jonathan Frakes had brought over some of the Star Trek writers for the SciFi, and JK had hired someone like Belva Plain or Nora Roberts to do the Romance? We are thye Borg |
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Posted 12-31-2003 12:30 PM by Reggie
Greenglow: In Anne McCafrey's 'Dragonriders of Pern' series of novels (at least the first one was awarded Hugo and Nebula, I think) romance, angst, emotions, all play a role central to the story. So there are precedents. Yes, indeed. The characters all have "people" inside them, with a plausible civilization and so on. No cardboard cut-outs! locutus of borg: Then you have missed a rare treat: a family of a dozen (?) books in the same general setting, all well thought out and well written. I share your concern about sci-fi vs. fantasy. Really, although it looks like fantasy at first glance, there's nothing too improbable about it. (YMMV) The "science" isn't thoroughly explained, to rule it as definitely fantasy (as the magic on Buffy was, for example). Enough care is taken in the storytelling that it could be science fiction, and there are definite elements (esp. in the later books) that suggest that it has been designed as science fiction. And the "science" is also far enough in the background that it doesn't interfere with The Story. I would urge you to read a book or two, and see for yourself. These are definitely good and worth reading. It really is interesting to speculate on what could have happened if good SciFi had been used. What do you think the series would have been like if Melinda Metz had done all of the angst, and if Jonathan Frakes had brought over some of the Star Trek writers for the SciFi, and JK had hired someone like Belva Plain or Nora Roberts to do the Romance? I think that that's a good idea, although I'm not sure as to MM's "Angst", or BP and NR's "Romance" abilities: I haven't read enough to judge their work. NR has quite a following, I'm told. I have my doubts about some of the Star Trek writers; I'm remembering one episode where a probe transformed the Enterprise into an Aztec temple or some such. But on the whole, that's the right idea. Get good writers, and let them write good stories. As for Pern, remember that Ron Moore was trying to get a Pern TV show going. WB pulled the plug on it, unusually late in the process. I'm wondering if they got a look at his version of BSG, and decided that they didn't want any part of what his version of Pern would have been. |
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Posted 12-31-2003 09:16 PM by locutus of borg
Reggie, Thanks for the tip. I think I will read the first one and see if I like it. We are the Borg |
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Posted 01-02-2004 04:32 PM by greenglow
Hey LOB, Reggie has already answered (thanks Reggie ) I agree with him. I would label them as science fiction, although there are mythological aspects, that comes from the sci-fi being developed (I won't say more I don't want to spoil your reading I liked those books a lot, especially the first ones. Other Anne McCafrey novels I read were all science fiction. I have read on another thread quotes from a R. Moore interview on that WB 'dragonraiders of Pern' adaptation and I must say its probably a good thing it was canceled because Moore said the WB wanted to turn it into a Xena-kind of show! |
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Posted 01-02-2004 05:10 PM by locutus of borg
Greenglow, If they were going to turn it into anything even REMOTELY resembling Xena, they would have lost me! I don't mean to bash Xena, but that was one show that I could just never get interested in. We are the Borg |
Posted 01-04-2004 10:29 AM by Reggie
quote: Well...
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Posted 01-04-2004 04:31 PM by DreamingApplesaucer1947
hey all! hope everyones well. i never got into Xena myself either, but it was never really shown in full in ireland, just a few eps here and there. I sadly dont know many with an interest in roswell, in high school people only knew about it cause i was "spreading Roswellianism" i used to spend ages telling people the whole story which is fairly complicated as we all know! i was voted "most likely to be abducted by aliens" in my senior class last year! but since i started college this year alot of people seem to know about roswell which to me is really cool as it hasnt been shown all that much, everyone seems to say that they couldnt get into it becasue it was too confusing. i guess i kind of understand, i watched from ep 1 so i knew what was going on but most advertising for roswell was really during season 3 here so people started watching end s2/s3 and there were no old repeats so everyone was like what the hells going on. i have tried my best to educate all i meet about the world of roswell though! So hows eveyone? Anyone wanna start something from roswell that we can all try to figure out? im quiet content right now so its up to you guys!! |
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Posted 01-04-2004 08:09 PM by Reggie
Well... The last thing we were considering was Tess: Mindwarped at the end of MitC by Nikolas, to believe in and follow a (false) "Plan", ostensibly by her father; or evil MindWarping HellBeast (EMHB)? Your thoughts? |
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Posted 01-05-2004 05:17 PM by greenglow
Backtracking a little: Reggie, the quotes are on the 'Can We Ressurect Roswell?' #1 thread. If it hasn't fall off the boards, that is Hi DreamingApplesaucer1947 |
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Posted 01-05-2004 09:33 PM by locutus of borg
Dreaming Applesaucer, Buy a copy of the Roswell S1 DVDs, and SHOW your friends. I have all three seasons taped, (2) copies of each episode. I loan them out to people who have never even heard of Roswell. So far I've made over a dozen converts. Mostly, guys in the 55-65 age range. We are tye borg |
Posted 01-08-2004 04:44 PM by shapeshifter
quote:That's interesting. I thought most of the hard core fans were female, from teens to 50's. |
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Posted 01-08-2004 05:09 PM by locutus of borg
Shapeshifter, My wife doesn't allow me to hang out with many younger females, so I can't comment on that. But within my circle of friends, the "hard corps" Roswell fans are males ranging from 55-65, with the 12 year old grandson of one of my friends in the process of becoming a hard corps Roswellian. (At the tender age of 12, he can't seem to decide whether he has the hots for Liz, Maria, or Isabel, or maybe all three. LOL) Reggie, We are the Borg |
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Posted 01-10-2004 01:03 PM by Reggie
Originally posted by locutus of borg: But within my circle of friends, the "hard corps" Roswell fans are males ranging from 55-65, with the 12 year old grandson of one of my friends in the process of becoming a hard corps Roswellian. I wonder how the more (sci-fi fans) of them feel about Tess - victim or villianess? Reggie, Brains and Brawns. Yes, I liked it too... Pity there aren't sequels. For that matter, it'd make a good TV series... not on Sci-Fi though. |
Posted 01-11-2004 10:41 AM by Reggie
quote: Ah, but those are the Romance fans. I'll bet LoB's friends are Science Fiction fans, from Asimov to Zelaney. He's probably not been pressing them with "Season Spew" or "Season Flee". They would have helped search for the Importance of Liz to Alien Mythology. And they probably would all have been hard-core CHADers, too... and if they knew there were well over 650 CHADS, they'd run like mad! |
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Posted 01-11-2004 11:26 PM by Musicchild
I like the first season of Xena, but then interest started to fade. Why didn't Khivar just posses someone instead of sending Nicholas? |
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Posted 01-12-2004 09:22 AM by shapeshifter
Musicchild, good question. I guess we can only theorize. Possibly back when Nicholas first arrived, the possession "technology" hadn't been developed. (See the UFL part of the archived silverhandprint.com.) It would also seem plausible that Nicholas managed to convince Kvar that it was strategically advantageous to have Antarian eyes and ears on Earth to make decisions. Nicholas clearly hated Earth, but he may have initially planned on gaining power by being the Leader on Earth. And/or he may have hoped to get it together with Vilandra. Perhaps he even delayed the Skins finding the Royals until Vilandra was "old enough" to respond to his attentions. And perhaps being trapped in a small, teenage boy's body was Kvar's way of double-crossing Nicholas to keep him in line. Then again, maybe it was Kvar's idea to have Nicholas go to Earth ostensibly to be onsite Antarian eyes and ears for Kvar, while in reality, Kvar's motivation would have been to get Nicholas out of the way. [ 01-12-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Posted 01-12-2004 04:42 PM by greenglow
quote: Well, it surely is a way of answearing that old question... why are the skins stuck on Earth with husks that have a limited life-time and no way whatsoever of getting back to Antar? How did they get to Earth, anyway? Where's the ship they came in? They are supposed to be in contact with Kivar, why can't they call for a ship? Or just for new husks?? |
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Posted 01-12-2004 09:36 PM by locutus of borg
Actually, all of the Roswell fans i know are pretty much SciFi/Fantasy fans. Asimov is worshipped, the other authors are only venerated. (LOL) What surprised me, though, was that all of my friends seem fit into three categories. Liz obsessives, Max/Liz dreamers, and Isabel obsessives. I find that a little strange, because I thought that M/M and A/I would fit some of my friends pretty well, but thay all seem to like Liz, Izzie and Max/Liz. we are unanimous on one thing though: Tess is definitely the villian, definitely not the victim I don't know if it's age, or what, but most of us just try to disregard the "chads" and enjoy the show. We are the Borg [ 01-12-2004: Message edited locutus of borg ] [ 01-12-2004: Message edited locutus of borg ] |
Posted 01-12-2004 09:46 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Yes, it's probably age. I have a post card from Asimov that I received in reply to a letter I wrote him nearly 40 years ago. And I think age also accounts for our ability to ignore chads. TV in the 60's was total chadland. |
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Posted 01-13-2004 06:07 PM by locutus of borg
Shapeshifter, Yeah, age! The older I get the more mistakes I can look back on. And the more mistakes I can look back on, the more tolerant I become of other people's mistakes. Damn shame you have to get old to realize that! (LOL) we are the Borg |
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Posted 01-15-2004 06:37 PM by The Real Momo
A Reverse MondoPost! Reggie: Actually, an heir did not have to be human. Since Max and Tess were hybrids, the heir could also have been alien or a mix. Production of an heir before being "reinstalled" seemed to be an non-issue since Kivar's desire was for Tess to "return with the heir". It really doesn't matter. Environment was a non-issue because Tess presumably went to Antar with the baby and they both survived the home world atmosphere. So ... baby Zan was all or part of these ...
We may never know the answer to this one. Yes, it's possible that this could be hysterical strength or it could have been part of an IV push when Maria short circuits the electro-magnetic rod or it could have been a Tess mindwarp to disguise the future intentions of the Skins and/or Tess. The truth is, as JK is the first to admit, he had never done any sci-fi before so it might just be "a straight deus-ex-machina." But , in the end, Tess' character still remains duplicitious in that her intentions could have been good or evil.
Well, for the moment, I'm taking it as true. We have the words coming straight from Tess in "Departure". Max , Isabel, and Michael believe it. We know that Nasedo left papers behind for Tess. Among the papers, Nasedo could have outlined the Nasedo Pact. By season 3 (off camera), Max and company would have read these papers and could have verified the Nasedo Pact was made. And when Tess returns, she makes no excuses for her behavior in the past ... she doesn't claim mind-warp or duress, but looks for atonement. That suggests that Tess knew and understood that her past actions were of her own doing, not controlled by Nicholas or Kivar. Let's start with what we do and don't know. First, we don't know who killed Atherton or why. If we've got two shapeshifters running around loose, then it could have been either one of them. Since one was captured by the Army (in 1947), they likely lost touch with each other. Tic-tac could have been cultivating Atherton (and River Dog) as allies, and Harding killed Atherton because he'd "discovered" too much and was publishing it. But we do know. Have you forgotten that Tess tells the pod squad that they need to get the healing stones from Riverdog after Nasedo is shot and Michael, Isabel, Maria, and Tess are fleeing Eagle Rock in the Jeep (Destiny)? Tess says Nasedo told her about Riverdog. Based on this info, Nasedo is the shapeshifter who connected with Riverdog. Riverdog only says "the man" (meaning "the visitor"-"Nasedo") killed Atherton. Unless there is some other piece of hard evidence, Nasedo is the one who killed Atherton. Something similar could have happened with Sheila Harding; or one of them could have thought she was a Skin. We know that the Army was persuing aliens, and that the Army does not have civilian police power. (See "posse comitatus laws".) It's appropriate and likely that after the initial Roswell investigation wound up, the persuit was handed off to the FBI. Since J. Edgar Hoover was in charge for ages, it's also possible that the head (and staff) of the alien-hunting unit would also be retained over the years. It makes security simpler, after all. ... We don't know why Sheila Harding died. It did attract the attention of the FBI, though. Who benefited? This may be why someone started to kill the Special Unit agents; they were closing in, and Harding (?) had to defend himself. It could even be that she was killed by a Skin, to incriminate one of the shapeshifters or just to "prime the pump" somehow. It did get her husband going, and that created another problem for the aliens. I'm inclined to think Sheila was just , as Hubble said, "in the wrong place at the wrong time". We have nothing to indicate that Sheila was a Skin. However, we do know that Nasedo was also responsible for Sheila's murder. We know this from Liz's kiss with Maxcedo. In it, she receives flashes from Nasedo which show us the dead body of Sheila lying on the ground at Pepper's Cafe. Certainly, it appears Nasedo was being chased. Hubble suggests he wanted the car, but Nasedo doesn't take the car. So maybe it had nothing to do with the car. Maybe Sheila catches Nasedo shapeshifting and is forced to kill her. He can't leave a witness. She could not have been killed by a Skin because they didn't leave silver handprints on their victims; they left a pentagram. Again, it's true that the military is not supposed to be a "civilian police force." But Nasedo, Tic-Tac, or Langley had killed soldiers in 1947. By murdering US soldiers and having been detained by military forces, it's possible that the military stayed involved and didn't close the case. They may have considered it a military matter. Plus, the murder of Sheila Hubble may have been the grounds for establishing the the Special Unit. Wasn't the first head of the Special Unit killed in 1972? This would be when the Silo murder took place (when Hubble kills the drifter he thinks is Nasedo).
I agree that probably the Skins enlisted in humans to do most of the tracking, however, I will refer to the Whitaker diaries which specifically states that the Skins were infiltrating important positions, including government. By placing themselves in key positions, it gave Skins the position to gather information without having to actually do it themselves. Or they could put out information and let such organizations like "the Special Unit" take it from there.
I'm not sure that Nasedo knew where the Granilith was. In the papers that Nasedo left behind for Tess, Max mentions the key for the spaceship and when Max reads it , says (paraphrase) "this is our only way to communicate with home." This clearly isn't true. The have the orbs, which are communicators, and they have the Granilith. If Nasedo knew this information, he certainly would have told Tess. But clearly, Tess knew nothing about the orbs and Nasedo apparently didn't know how the orbs worked. It appears that Nasedo didn't know about the orbs or the Granilith. If Nasedo was captured by Nicholas, he could have done a mind-rape and got nothing because Nasedo knew nothing.
The Whitaker diaries" were part of thesilverhandprint.com, an official website put out by the WB during second season. Its purpose, I understand, was to include a little backstory on the dupes and Kivar. It also gave as insight into the missing Milton, and material about Alex's trip to Sweden. It also includes the Senate Commission hearings and notes between Agts. Duff and Topolsky. Since it was put out by the WB, I consider this as a viable place to look for clues. shapeshifter has reconstructed the site for our benefit.
Yes, it is possible that there are other alternatives here, but we can't dismiss the fact that one of the shapeshifters could have been a double agent, especially with the Nasedo Pact in play. Nasedo could easily be considered a legitimate villian in the game.
While it is Max's perogative to choose a wife, the question that comes into play is "was Max free to choose?" According the the mom-o-gram, Max/Zan was already married and in the eyes of Nasedo, he also considered Max married to Tess. Nasedo wasn't living by Earth rules, he was living by Antarian rules. Max's/Zan's marriage to Tess/Ava was fact. Liz becomes the "other woman" and would not have been accepted. Had Nasedo determined that Tess' relationship with Kyle was in any way serious, I suspect he might have discouraged it as well. However, it appears Tess considered Kyle not as a serious romance, but a "boy toy" to sastify her frustrations and/or to use for her own self interests ... unfortunately for us. Kyle and Tess were great together. They had great dialogue and some real chemistry. [ 01-15-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 01-15-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 01-15-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 01-15-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 01-15-2004 07:11 PM by The Real Momo
shapeshifter: Your Welsh Red Dragon is also associated with Arthurian lore. The Red Dragon is the symbol of Uther Pendragon, the father of King Arthur. Since Max is referred to "The Once and Future King", we again have another reference to Max as a modern version of King Arthur However, the Red Dragon, is also associated with Liz (as you pointed out, there is a Red Dragon on her window). It also ties Liz to Arthurian lore. The connection also binds Liz closer to Max. The Red Dragon, in the case, represents The Goddess of Sovereignty, often described as "the dark one". This could be a reference to Liz's dark hair and eyes. More importantly, the Goddess of Sovereignty is directly connected to King Arthur for the Goddess is associated with "the land" and the secret to the Holy Grail is that "the land and the King are one." One cannot live without the other. So this reference could be construed that Max cannot live with Liz and Liz cannot live with Max. In the larger sense and simply put, they represent the balance which makes life fruitful, prosperous, fulfilled. I'll be posting more about this on my website in the future. |
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Posted 01-16-2004 08:44 PM by shapeshifter
Momo, thank you for the Arthurian explanations about the dragon and Roswell. I could read Arthurian references forever and have never made the Roswellian connection, but I knew it was there. I'll be looking forward to what you will put on your site, and maybe link to it from the Archetypes page of the Archives. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:I take them as canon based on the question and answer below from this interview with Katims in March of 1999: quote: [ 01-16-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Posted 01-17-2004 03:58 PM by greenglow
quote: Is it just me or it seems that JK was absolutely clueless about what was really on the site? |
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Posted 01-20-2004 02:05 PM by The Real Momo
Can someone refresh my memory? Was there ever much discussion about "The Butterfly Effect" in connection with Liz? Thanks! |
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Posted 01-21-2004 08:58 PM by shapeshifter
Greenglow, good point about JK most likely not really ever knowing what was there. Momo, are you refering to butterfly symbolism and Liz's metamorphosis quote: |
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Posted 01-22-2004 03:11 PM by The Real Momo
I'm refering to "the butterfly effect" and/or the chaos theory and Liz's importance to the mythology ... that Liz is the "butterfly" in "the butterfly effect" and that is one of the reasons we see the butterfly motif on her clothes (skirts, robe, etc.) and in her room. I don't remember reading much on it and I wondered if it had been discussed early on. It's something that Alas and I and others had discussed on the old WB board, I think, but I'm not sure it was preserved anywhere. I just wanted to refresh my memory or find a copy of the thread. |
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Posted 01-24-2004 09:31 AM by Reggie
The "butterfly" in the Butterfly Effect is really any random action. I'd hardly call Liz's actions random. Max, perhaps... And I see that they've made Tic-tacs 30% larger now. Will that make our favorite shapeshifter more likely to change form? Or just gain weight? Do "we" know yet if there will be any Lizology-type goodies on the DVDs when they come out? |
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Posted 01-24-2004 10:35 AM by Nemo
Reggie, I agree that Liz's actions are usually not random, but I don't think that disqualifies them from playing the role of the butterfly. The mark of a chaotic system is large-scale sensitivity to local small changes, regardless whether such changes are random or otherwise. (But if even if the changes are purposeful, their effect on the chaotic part of a system will be unpredictable.) About the DVD's: I too am eager to see whether there are new details that look significant. But at least I will get a better look at the old ones. [ 01-25-2004: Message edited Nemo ] |
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Posted 01-24-2004 10:33 PM by shapeshifter
Yay! Nemo's still around! If you're still here, can you tell me if your wife was the creator of this cake, and, if so, what was the date/occasion, or, if not, do you know who did make it? IMAGE: thesmudge.com/shapeshifter/Roswell/stuff/cake1b.jpg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [ 01-24-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 01-25-2004 12:24 PM by Reggie
Welcome (back), Nemo! I think that Life On Earth qualifies as a "BE generator". It was "random" that Max met Liz, and that they connected however they did in 3rd Grade. I'm sure that the aliens expected their Zan would be living among the Earthlings, but I doubt that he was supposed to get involved with them. I suspect that he was to remain single, and somehow unfulfilled, until he was reunited with his "Young Bride". Since they'd been raised seperately, there would be no Kibbutz Effect, and he could/would look upon her as a prospective girlfriend and wife. Kibbutz Effect: children raised communally relate to each other as siblings, even though they are not blood kin. Thus, Michael and Isabel saw each other as siblings, and their previous linkage (as dreamed of) was just too icky to resume. And I would have posted my rant, "TNoEvil.txt", but I seem to have had a write error on that hard disk... |
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Posted 01-26-2004 12:00 AM by Nemo
shapeshifter, The cake in the picture was made by Remo Borracchini’s, a Mediterranean market and bakery in Seattle renowned for cakes and decorating. The Antarian swirl pattern was drawn by Rachelle (who posted on the early Science Fiction threads as Leneba, later as Lionspaw). The picture was taken by our illustrious Zero, founder of the Liz/Myth threads. The occasion was a Roswell fan party in Bellingham (WA) on 15 Dec 2000, organized by Lisa B’ham, who was a moderator here in early days. There had been earlier Roswell parties, in Seattle (Feb 2000 -- first one in North America) and Vancouver BC (May 2000) where I had met Lisa and some of the other moderators (Drcy and Moonfire), but this party was the first one in Lisa’s home town. As I recall, she had recently retired from moderator duties, and I wanted to show some appreciation for her work, so I brought the cake for her party as a surprise. (There were two more Bellingham parties later, with a similar cake each time, but I think the decorations turned out best on this first one.) There was a picture of the occasion on Liz thread #32. [ 01-26-2004: Message edited Nemo ] |
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Posted 01-26-2004 12:32 AM by Nemo
As for whether I'm still around here: I've never been away (not for more than a few days at a time), but lately I don't have much to post about. (Besides the show being over, I've been putting in more time at work and with the Seattle Symphonic Band. A few weeks ago I got to play the trombone solo in Ariane Overture, a gorgeous lyrical part that runs about two minutes -- my first solo performance with that band or any other -- and it went very well, my section leader and the conductor were pleased. This has no connection at all with Roswell, except that it was in the key of Ab Major (4 flats), like that scale on the blackboard behind Liz in the "Up North" scene in the Pilot.) IMAGE: groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwAAAFUUVLWVB7F2Y1JUhE3LTIKy2!f2LD1WLYIRQjkedKICYCIQIHGRp5FUKKKBaQyXRJKNkR6UFdERRZzeL9L35oPK6HpHSodESsloF4k/liz_Ab.jpg [ 01-26-2004: Message edited Nemo ] |
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Posted 01-26-2004 03:29 AM by DreamingApplesaucer1947
hey! that picture of the cake reminded me of when graduation aired and i had a party, the room was full of sweets like lil ufos, and decorations in the theme of the Roswell high colors, blue and yellow, and i even got a cake made, that had roswell graduation on it!! oh sweet memories!! still didnt stop me crying though! |
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Posted 01-26-2004 02:43 PM by The Real Momo
My reference to Liz as "the butterfly" does not refer to her own actions, but what "happens" to Liz. The randomness stems from Liz being shot. Had Liz not been shot, then Max would not have healed her. He would have kept his distance and worshipped Liz from afar. Liz being shot is what sends the ripples or flapping of wings in motion. It's the point when all the characters leave "normal." Everything changes from that moment and the "planned" destinies of all the characters change. That may be why Liz is so closely identified with the butterfly. |
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Posted 01-26-2004 07:10 PM by shapeshifter
Nemo, thanks for the cake info! And glad to hear you're doing well on the music scene. Momo, thanks for clarifying about the Butterfly Effect. I always preferred to think of the Max/Liz thing as a random occurance, rather than the result of some previous life encounter. |
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Posted 01-27-2004 11:10 AM by Musicchild
I forgot what I was going to post, and now I suddenly want a piece of cake. Ed Harding never downed Tic Tac's like the other one did right? He was probably a spy working for Khivar, and was killed by the skins when they had no use for him. |
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Posted 01-27-2004 08:41 PM by The Real Momo
shapeshifter: Yes, I have read Alas' "The Butterfly Effect". It was based on the premise of what if Liz hadn't been saved by Max. She eventually posted in the fanfics on the blu board. I thought it was very good. I know what you mean. I'm always turning the story around looking at different perspectives on the mythologies of all the characters. |
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Posted 01-28-2004 05:35 PM by shapeshifter
musicchild, love the sense of humor And the theory! Momo, I just read her fanfic. It is very well written. And definitely falls into the "what should have been" category. And in the vein of "should've's," here's the Roswell portion of Ron Moore's recent interview.
[ 01-28-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 01-29-2004 04:21 PM by greenglow
I read that interview part about Roswell. Every time R. Moore opens his mouth about Roswell is more evident that they screw the show up for absolutely no good reason... they had no major plan, no plot layed down, nothing! Just went to where the wind blowed! That really explains a lot about all the crap we took on S2 and S3 but its disapointing... |
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Posted 01-29-2004 07:04 PM by shapeshifter
I had the opportunity to watch parts of Crazy and TLV today before I went to work. I noticed something new.
Then, in TLV, we learn that Topolsky is killed in a fire in Maryland, which Valenti believes was caused purposely to silence her. So, what does this tell us about Nasedo?
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Posted 01-30-2004 11:10 AM by The Real Momo
The impression I got from Crazy and TVL is that Pierce, not Nasedo was responsible for Topolsky's death. Topolsky is aware that the Special Unit is on to her. She has taken the communicator from the FBI vaults (and stupidly has signed for it in the inventory control from the silverhandprint.com). So the Special Unit knows she has it. Pierce, of course, will want it back. We also know that Topolsky, while being "debriefed" in Maryland, was tortured or forced to reveal info on the pod squad. We know she had possession of the second communicator (signed it out from the FBI according to silverhandprint.com), but we don't know if that was before or after her admission to the mental hospital. However, taking the communicator to the pod squad is a death sentence. Topolsky knew that Pierce would kill her. And she did leave a trail of credit card info that led to Roswell . It wouldn't have taken any brain surgery to trace her. And if Nasedo wanted to kill Topolsky, why go through an elaborate charade when he could have easily fried her in Roswell anytime he wanted? This smacks more of The Special Unit who would have had to create an "accidental" death to cover their tracks. But it does lead to some interesting points. Topolsky, even though a Special Agent recruit, seemed interested in helping the pod squad and was generally benign. Nasedo, up until Crazy, seemed to leave her alone. But once Topolsky has the second communicator, she possibly becomes dangerous to Nasedo. With the communicators, Max and company have access to their home world. Perhaps Nasedo never intended to have the pod squad find the second communicator at all? Perhaps with the two communicators, Nasedo was afraid he might lose control of his "charges". And it brings up the question again about Nasedo's whereabouts. We know he worked for the government, but why would the military visit and guard an empty house for a low-security level employee? There's more to Ed Harding's job than we've seen. For Ed Harding to know about what's going on with Topolsky, the Special Unit, and Roswell, he either had to be on-scene, have a inside shapeshifter or plant, or have communicational access (electronic surveillance, paper trail of documentation, etc). Since Tess claims Nasedo never left her for extended periods of time, another shapeshifter or access seem to be the alternatives. Armed with intel, he could have shapeshifted into Margolin. The question would be how he knew that Topolsky arranged to meet Michael at Buckley Point? |
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Posted 01-30-2004 02:17 PM by Citrus and Vine
Momo, shapeshifter, and everyone! I agree with you, Momo, that Pierce was responsible for Topolsky's death.
quote: Nasedo/Ed Harding was a shapeshifter. He could impersonate anyone, including their voice. He didn’t even have to appear in person to access information. He could get information via computer or phone calls. Nasedo knew what the Special Unit knew. That’s how he knew Topolsky was in Roswell, with the orb. (More headlights appear. Sheriff Valenti and Dr. Margolin step out of their respective vehicles)
quote: Nasedo knew that Topolsky wanted to meet with the podsters. (Otherwise, Topolsky had no reason to be in Roswell, with the orb.) Nasedo may not have known that Tolposky wanted to meet at Buckley Point. Or, Nasedo might have known from the Special Unit that Topolsky headed that way. Or Nasedo might have tipped off the Special Unit that Topolsky would be there, after he talked to the podsters on the road that led to Buckley Point. Nasedo talked with the Sheriff in the morning. Michael left with Maria that night. Liz, Max, Isabel, and Alex followed in the jeep. Nasedo may have alerted Valenti at that point. They trailed the jeep, which sped ahead to catch up with Michael. (There was only one road up to Buckley Point.) After the jeep stopped where Maria and Michael had stopped, Valenti and Dr. Margolin caught up. Nasedo/Dr. Margolin’s primary purpose in meeting with Max, Michael, and Isabel was to discredit anything Topolsky told them about the orb. Nasedo emphasized that Topolsky was crazy. [ 01-30-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-30-2004 07:22 PM by The Real Momo
Citrus! As usual, good points.
quote: I agree. Topolsky had no other reason to be in Roswell and I do believe Nasedo tipped off the Special Unit. But there is the problem of how he knew Topolsky would be at Buckley Point. The bug had been removed from Michael's apartment, so that's out. Topolsky only told Michael. Michael told Maria, no one else. Maria left the note for Liz to find who in turn tells Max. That's the chain of evidence. At this point, Nasedo is out of the loop. The only possible way that Nasedo could have known is through Maria's order book which was left behind at the Crashdown. So it may have come down like this. Nasedo breaks into the Crashdown after it closes, finds Maria's notebook, puts two and two together, phones the Special Unit, then goes to Valenti. By tipping off the Special Unit first, this is perhaps the only way Nasedo/Margolin would know that Topolsky would be on her way back to Bethesda. By intercepting the pod squad first, it clears the decks for Topolsky to show up at the appointed time, then for the Special Unit to pick her up. ... And, as a bonus, the second orb returns to the Special Unit, away from Max. |
Posted 01-30-2004 09:40 PM by shapeshifter
quote:This seems quite plausible. But still, wouldn't Nasedo have worried about Pierce getting info about the podsters from her? quote:Or didn't Nasedo realize Pierce was trailing Topolsky? And how would Nasedo tipping off Pierce about Topolsky fit with this later revelation from Max to the Max? quote:Is Nasedo double-crossing both Pierce and Tess, as well as Max and the others? I remember reading a spy novel in which the spy eventually lost track of his own identity and selfhood because he had so many layers of conflicting loyalties to maintain. |
Posted 01-31-2004 12:18 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Nasedo was most concerned about the podsters. So he watched them. Since there were four of them, he could not watch all four at once. Nasedo evidently wasn’t focused on Michael, when Michael left the café with Maria, because Nasedo/Dr. Margolin and the Sheriff didn’t follow immediately after them. Nasedo/Dr. Margolin and the Sheriff followed after the jeep, which contained Max and Isabel (as well as Alex and Liz.) So Nasedo was evidently focusing his attention on Max and/or Isabel. Most likely, since Max brought Liz back from death (a power unique to Max as King), Nasedo was following Max. Since the four of them left in a hurry, Nasedo notified the Sheriff, so Nasedo/Dr. Margolin could stop them and convince them to avoid Topolsky.
quote: If that had been a concern to Nasedo, then it seems likely that he would have killed Topolsky immediately or as soon as possible, before Pierce had time to interrogate her. As it was, Topolsky died after some time had elapsed, in the next week, following her visit to Roswell. Pierce already had time to get information from Topolsky. (SHERIFF: Doctor, has anything happened since our meeting last week that makes you think this fire might have been set to do her harm?) Pierce most likely had Topolsky killed or killed her himself, because he had gotten all the information he could from her, and he didn't want to risk her escaping again. ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` quote: That dialog occurred after Nasedo scolded Tess for bringing Max, Michael, and Isabel to the podchamber. NASEDO: How could you bring them up here like this? You know the Special Unit is close. You saw that camera. Who do you think put it on them in the first place? Our friend, Pierce. In the scene, Nasedo is attempting to regain control over Tess. Tess has acted without his knowledge or consent, by bringing Max, Michael, and Isabel to the podchamber. Nasedo can’t afford to have Tess work against him, or he won’t be able to carry out his deal with Kivar. Nasedo is afraid that Tess trusts Max over him. Nasedo once again pulls the old fear line on Tess, to get her back under his control. Nasedo says Pierce is “closer to the four of you than anyone’s ever been.” However, Pierce knew nothing of Tess. Tess’ name wasn’t on his list. Pierce and the Special Unit didn’t know about Tess or Ed Harding. In the white room, Pierce shows Max images of Michael, Isabel, Maria, and Alex, and an image of Liz dead. Tess’ image isn’t among the images. Tess is unknown to Pierce. Pierce didn’t know about Tess at all. But Nasedo pretended to Tess all her life that the Special Unit was after her. She believed that was why they had to move so often. Nasedo terrorized Tess with stories of the Special Unit. That’s why Tess wanted to go to Antar (home) more than anything else. ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` quote: Since Nasedo knew all about Topolsky being in Roswell with the orb, it seems likely that he also knew that Pierce was trying to find Topolsky. Topolsky waited with the orb at Buckley Point to meet Michael. Pierce and other agents showed up. They may have been trailing Topolsky, or they may have been tipped off by Nasedo that she might be there. If they had actually been trailing her, it seems possible that they might have captured her, before she reached Buckley Point. On the other hand, they may have been watching her and waiting. When no one showed up to meet her, then they might have decided to take her in. [ 01-31-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-31-2004 01:49 PM by shapeshifter
I have some more thoughts on Nasedo's motives, but for now: jero has patiently rewatched every episode and noted from the credits the names of the producers, directors, and writers. They are now formatted for the web and uploaded here for your perusal and to feed discussions of how different personalities with different visions altered the course of the story: Perhaps there is a pattern there that explains Nasedo's (and other characters) variable behaviors. |
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Posted 01-31-2004 01:51 PM by shapeshifter
I have some more thoughts on Nasedo's motives, but for now: jero has patiently rewatched every episode and noted from the credits the names of the producers, directors, and writers. They are now formatted for the web and uploaded here for your perusal and to feed discussions of how different personalities with different visions altered the course of the story: Perhaps there is a pattern there that explains Nasedo's (and other characters) variable behaviors. |
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Posted 02-01-2004 04:45 PM by The Real Momo
While it's possible that Pierce may not have known about Tess, I think it's probable that they did know about Tess. I don't think Tess was lying about that. The list of people Topolsky refers to as "on "he list" were people Topolsky had direct contact with, names she recognized. Since Topolsky left Roswell before Ed Harding and Tess showed up in Roswell, she would not have recognized the Hardings even if they were on the list because she had not interacted with him. As far as the holograms, Pierce pre-selected these people because they were important to Max. Max did not consider Tess a friend and that may be why she was excluded. Max had genuine feelings for Liz, Isabel, Michael, Maria and Alex. At the time, Max distrusted Tess so Pierce could have considered Tess as non-influential and dismissed her. |
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Posted 02-01-2004 05:55 PM by Citrus and Vine
Momo! I agree with you that Pierce selected people connected with Max in an attempt to get to Max. However, Tess wasn’t considered to be an alien by Pierce at all. Nasedo lied to Tess about that. Nasedo lied to Tess, when he said, “He’s (Pierce’s) closer to the four of you than anyone’s ever been.” Pierce didn’t know about Tess or Nasedo-Ed Harding. Tess wasn’t associated with Max. She also wasn’t considered to be an alien. Isabel spent time with Tess, but, again, Tess wasn’t under suspicion. Alex, in contrast, was on the list, as was Maria. Alex and Maria had been at the hospital, when Max was in the hospital. Tess was new in town. Pierce was an alien hunter. Tess couldn’t change shape. Pierce didn’t know about Tess from the past or from the present. Nasedo lied to Tess. Pierce wasn't watching Tess. He didn't show Max her picture or ask Max about Tess. Pierce thought Max was an alien. Pierce was an alien hunter. He had studied all the records on aliens from the past. Pierce had no suspicions that Tess was an alien, too. Again, Nasedo lied to Tess her entire life about the Special Unit being after her. Nasedo wanted Tess to hate Earth, so she would go to Antar, and so she would carry out the deal Nasedo had with Kivar. Nasedo convinced Tess that he was protecting her. screencap from Momo’s Roswell [ 02-01-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 02-01-2004 07:20 PM by Reggie
I'm still working on my <explitive deleted> computer. I've just "upgraded" to Win98, Second Edition. It misplaced COM 1 for a while, and so it wasn't recognising my modem. Hard to get online, without the modem... So I've just read the thread. First objection is to calling "Dr. Margolin" Nacedo. This shapeshifter is definitely Tic-Tac, not Ed Harding. Remember, EH has a job, and is babysitting Tess elsewhere. This shapeshifter is the one who takes tic-tacs after he shapeshifts, and is fatherly-protective toward the podsters. More later... |
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Posted 02-01-2004 08:11 PM by Algieba
I just got caught up on this thread so now I have a question about the "Butterfly Effect". I was under the impression that it is an action that sets up a chain reaction of other events. Is that what is being discussed here? James Gleick in "Chaos" quotes an older version of the same concept. It's from a nursery rhyme. "For want of a nail, the shoe was lost; That comparison seems random but it doesn't have to be. It's an action that sets up a chain reaction. The final action is the result of the original action. But, in my opinion, at any point, an intervention could change the outcome. Such as FMax coming back in time to change the outcome of the war between Earth and Earth's enemies. That means the future is not set because free will allows for multiple possible outcomes. I'm getting into "Terminator" territory now but there is a comparison. "Our fate is what we make" compared to "We are who we choose to be." As an aside, now I have to have a Roswell cake. |
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Posted 02-01-2004 11:17 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Algieba and Reggie!
Nasedo/Dr. Margolin shapeshifted into the hitchhiker, who ate some tic tacs, as he walked away from the car he had been in. Nasedo/Dr. Margolin didn’t help the podsters. He warned them off from Topolsky and the orb. The orbs were designed for the podsters to use. Nasedo/Dr. Margolin didn’t go to them or identify himself. He didn’t warn them about Pierce or the Special Unit. Nasedo/Dr. Margolin only wanted the podsters to stay away from Kathleen Topolsky, who had the other orb. Nasedo/Ed Harding likewise didn’t want the podsters to use the orbs, even though the orbs were specifically designed for them to use when they wanted to use them. Nasedo/Hank/guy-with-the-goatee-and-earring also didn’t help the podsters. Michael was already entirely in the clear about Hank’s disappearance. Nasedo had killed Hank and framed Michael. If Nasedo had wanted to protect Michael, he would have gone to Hank as a policeman and taken Hank away quietly. Instead, Nasedo made certain that Michael got arrested for what happened in the trailer. Nasedo/Hank didn’t get Michael out of jail. Nasedo/Hank went to the Sheriff to establish that Hank was alive, so Nasedo again could frame Michael at a later date for Hank’s murder. (If the shapeshifter had been “fatherly”, we would expect him to provide Michael with a home. Instead, the shapeshifter took away the trailer that had been Michael’s home.) Nasedo/Hank/guy-with-the-cowboy-hat-and-the-goatee-and-the earring sent Max and Liz home. He didn’t identify himself. He didn’t help Max. He didn’t protect Max. The orb had sent out a beam of light. Nasedo didn’t want anyone who might help Max to find Max via the beam signal. That’s why Nasedo/guy-with-the-hat-and-the-earring insisted that Max leave the area. |
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Posted 02-02-2004 08:19 PM by shapeshifter
Most likely the various writers had different ideas about shapeshifters, and this alone explains Nasedo's incomprehensible personality and motives. But, believing that the story of Roswell has a life of its own (something like the idea in Douglas Adams' novels that everything is a representation of the universe) I think that the quotes below speak to the need for a unification theory for Roswell: 1. The script claims Nasedo is TicTac. I wanted to say "alledged" Nasedo, but decided to let the quote stand on it's own merit-- quote:2. But so many fans believed that there were 2 shapeshifters based upon the eating and not-eating of tictacs, that eventually we were given Kal in Season 3-- quote: 3. But irregardless of Tictac ingestion, Nasedo was always mercurial-- quote:So, putting on my Roswell apologists' hat before getting up to pontificate... I now suggest that both Nasedo and Tess were, on various occasions, possessed by evil minions of Kvar. |
Posted 02-03-2004 08:17 PM by The Real Momo
quote: Yes, the action we were speaking of what the moment when Liz gets shot. That is the action that sets up the chain reaction. |
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Posted 02-03-2004 08:46 PM by The Real Momo
While it may be true that we were given the second shapeshifter, Cal, because of our TicTac-eating shapeshifter, I think we also must consider the original folklore/myth of the Roswell Crash which always claimed that two aliens were taken alive, one which supposedly died shortly after and the other kept in captivity well into the 1950s. These two aliens take on the role of our Roswellian shapeshifters (with modifications). Instead of one alien who dies in captivity, we have an alien who escapes; the other remains in captivity for three years before what? they let him go? he escapes? he's rescued? What we have is the CHAD of one shapeshifter who consumes TicTacs who is not easily identifible ... thus the possibility of a third shapeshifter. If Cal had not claimed that he had not shapeshifted, I could have gone with Cal and TicTac as being the same shapeshifter. Cal acquired a taste for human food and liked strong flavors. Peppermint might have been one. However, TicTac clearly shapeshifted and Cal says he didn't, so that left Nasedo as the prime candidate. But Nasedo never ate TicTacs when shapeshifting. So what do we have ... two or three shapeshifters. It's the same old debate. If we go back to original NM ufology, then between the three alleged crashes, there were up to 12 possible aliens and possibily three living. If the writers were following the folklore, then maybe, yes, there is a third shapeshifter. But what if there wasn't a third shapeshifter? Is there another option? Well, I got to thinking about the act of shapeshifting and how it's done. When Nasedo as Ed Harding shapeshifted, he never ate TicTacs., but TicTac always did. What was different. Then it hit me. When TicTac shapeshifts, he never returns to his base form. When Nasedo shapeshifts, he always returns to his base form ... that of Ed Harding . So is it possible that the need to eat TicTacs is only required when a shapeshifter morphs from one individual to another (i.e. Hispanic guy to Hank; Dr. Margolin to hiker) and not when he starts from/returns to his base form (i.e. Nasedo to clown; Pierce to Nasedo). If that is the case then we may be able to establish a case that Nasedo and TicTac are one and the same. What do you think? [ 02-03-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] [ 02-03-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 02-04-2004 11:49 PM by Vihmakass
...maybe Tic-Tac was finded way how not trap consequenses of shapeshifting, thous what Kal feared? Nasedo didnt care, he even liked return to basic him, be original alien. It's was in the show: 3 shapeshifters remain alive, one was killed....but maybe he survived somehow? Nasedo was killer so was Kal and even Tic-Tac killed human...so what this tells us about shapeshifters? Any of them, any can be handprint murder od murder of Atherton. |
Posted 02-06-2004 08:05 PM by shapeshifter
...maybe Tic-Tac [found a way to avoid the] consequences of shapeshifting, those that Kal feared? Nasedo didnt care, he even liked returning to the basic [form, to the] original alien [form/shape]. It's was in the show: 3 shapeshifters remain alive, one was killed....but maybe he survived somehow? Nasedo was killer so was Kal and even Tic-Tac killed human...so what this tells us about shapeshifters? Any of them, any can be a handprint murderer or the murderer of Atherton. From White Room:
MAX: I thought you said there were four. PIERCE: One of them escaped. Nasedo. Isn’t that what you call him? Vihmakass! You always have good ideas that make sense! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On the [ 02-06-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-08-2004 04:14 PM by The Real Momo
shapeshifter: Can't help you there, but I do believe it was intended to be "the Royal Four". Since they had a "Dupes" icon, I figured this would be used for Max, Isabel, Michael, and Tess to dinstinguish the two sets of pods. However, maybe you can help me.... Did Agent Brian Roll ever make an appearance in Roswell? I've accounted for most of the S.U. agents mentioned on the silverhandprint site save Agt. Roll. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The silverhandprint site lists three items that were taken from the Special Unit vault on April 8, 2000. 1. Agent Brian Roll checks out the uniform at 8:12 a.m. It's never checked back in. So is this when and how Meta-Chem gets Liz's uniform? And who is Brian Roll? 2. Agent Topolsky checks out the orb communicator at 3:14 p.m. That's easily traceable. Topolsky brings it to Roswell and the pod squad winds up eventually recovering it from Pierce in "The White Room". 3. Agent Pierce checks out an unidentified "stone" known as item 87K1 at 5:04 p.m. and it is never returned. What is it and where is it? Could this be the key to the Granilith? I thought it was interesting that several pieces were all checked out on the same day. Then there's the question of how Topolsky even checked it out. Topolsky had been released from her assignment (Project W. Roswell High) on 19 Nov. 1999, debriefed under duress, then taken to the mental hospital in Bethesda. She escapes from the mental hospital and manages to withdraw the orb from the vault six months later? The Special Unit wasn't too bright and never was Topolsky! Then again, Kathleen probably wasn't thinking too clearly at this point any way. But Pierce certainly would have picked up on it (which he obviously did having checked out the stone shortly thereafter). But what could have triggered this mass withdrawal of material from the vault on Apr. 8? In addition to all the above, two pieces of crash metal and a bio material (gandarium?) were withdrawn also, but returned. Is there something in the timeline I missed? Thanks! [ 02-08-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
Posted 02-08-2004 08:00 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Momo, you're probably going to laugh at what turned up in a simple Google search for brian roll roswell: Brian Roll was a production coordinator on Roswell. So, can we assume they never intended to actually have someone play that part? I doubt that they would use someone's name for a character, unless, like Thania St. John, the person was playing him or herself. Ooooo! I just realized something. Brian Roll was probably one of the creators of the silverhandprint website! Or...maybe he was a bit of a slave driver boss or a pilferer of set mementos, and the website creators who worked under him were just having a little fun with his name. [ 02-08-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-09-2004 09:17 AM by The Real Momo
shapeshifter: How did I miss that one! Roswell is loaded with references to staff members. You just have to look for them. I was just thinking in terms of the story that it could explain how Liz's uniform wound up at Meta-Chem. Dress taken from the vault, never returned. Lots of possibilities that go back to the Wheeler-Coleman conspiracy theory. |
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Posted 02-09-2004 04:34 PM by shapeshifter
Momo, it definitely fills that plot hole nicely. And as this thread grows, I am appreciate more and more Reggie's title choice. |
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Posted 02-09-2004 05:52 PM by The Real Momo
Yes, it is, isn't it. By the way, I thought you might like to know that Agt. Roll's new project, "Endgame", is in development with Sean's Connery's starring as a CIA agent. He's just changed agencies. |
Posted 02-10-2004 01:51 PM by Reggie
quote:
Just passing through. Glad you like the title. The "Nacedo" your script quote connects to, is definitely Tic-tac. But then, Dr. M was known to be a Tic-tac persona. There is also the matter of the "healing stones", which Nacedo gave to River Dog and Mr. H knew about. (Tess was to get them, in case of trouble.) But this argues that Mr. H isn't Nacedo - otherwise he would have given them to Tess directly, or hidden them somewhere she could get to. Only a different person would have given them to RD (an outsider) for safekeeping, and merely told Mr. H where he could find them. So Tic-tac may be "Nacedo", but that doesn't connect to Mr. H. He can still be a seperate person, and probably is. As for "base shapes": this is an excellent example of just what nonsense the sci-fi of S3 was. We are to believe that an alien's normal shape is human!? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to expect an alien's base shape would be alien? This is what we saw when Mr. H was being revived. More later... |
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Posted 02-11-2004 03:15 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Reggie!
quote: Aliens in Roswell were humanoid in appearance. They had heads with eyes and mouths. They had bodies. They had arms and legs. They stood upright and walked. Perhaps we could think of the human base form of shapeshifters as a presetting. Then Ed Harding’s preset human form was Ed Harding. He could appear as Agent Matheson or as Agent Pierce. His regular preset form, while he appeared as a human, was Ed Harding. (You might think of your hot water heater, which is set to a specific temperature for heating your hot water. That would be the presetting. Or you might have a car with memory that automatically returns your seat to a preset position, after someone else has driven the car in a different seat position. That would be the presetting.) The idea of the base human form for shapeshifters was evident when Nasedo was healed in Season One. Nasedo went to the Ed Harding form, rather than the Agent Matheson form that he had been in when he died. The Ed Harding form was Nasedo’s preset human form, or his base human form. In Season Two, Nasedo also changed to his base form of Ed Harding, when he wasn’t appearing as Agent Pierce. In Season Three, Kal, another shapeshifter, also returned to his preset form of Kal Langley. ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` quote: That was Pierce who said to Max, "Nasedo. Isn’t that what you call him?" PIERCE: You know, I might not have been around in 1947, but I know all about the crash. About the four aliens they captured: two dead, two alive. I’ve spent my entire career studying the documentation. Especially the three years of observation they made on the one held in captivity, right here in this room. MAX: I thought you said there were four. PIERCE: One of them escaped. Nasedo. Isn’t that what you call him? ~~~~~~~~~~
Max first talked to Tess alone about Nasedo. TESS: I know it must have been a surprise finding out about me. MAX: We knew there was someone out there, but we thought it was Nasedo. So you do know him, then. TESS: He was there when I came out of the pod, and he’s taken care of me ever since. MAX: So he’s our father? TESS: Not really, Max. So, Tess identified Ed Harding, the person who took care of her, as Nasedo. ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` quote: The suggestion that Ed Harding would have given Tess the stones or hidden them somewhere she could get them still holds true, even if Ed Harding only knew about the stones, but wasn’t Nasedo. Ed Harding told Tess about River Dog and about the stones. He knew about River Dog and he knew about the healing stones. If Ed Harding wasn’t Nasedo, he knew what River Dog’s Nasedo had known. Again, for the podsters, Ed Harding was Nasedo. Ed Harding murdered humans, leaving a silver handprint on the corpses. Ed Harding murdered in the same way as the murders reported by Hubble and as the murders reported by Agent Pierce. Ed Harding murdered the same way that Atherton was murdered, as well. River Dog thought that Nasedo killed Atherton. Whoever killed Atherton killed the same way that Ed Harding killed. Since Ed Harding was a shapeshifter, he could have assumed Nasedo's form before killing Atherton. Or Ed Harding could have been Nasedo and killed Atherton. Or Kal could have shapeshifted into Nasedo and killed Atherton.
Again, Atherton was killed in the same manner that Ed Harding killed people. [ 02-11-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 02-14-2004 08:38 PM by shapeshifter
From Max to the Max:
LIZ: That was you? NASEDO: I’ve been a lot of different people you don’t even know about. But right now, Max Evans is my most important role. |
Posted 02-16-2004 06:24 PM by The Real Momo
quote: But is it really? If the Nasedo Pact was dependent on bringing Max back to Antar (as we are led to believe), then Nasedo could have been protecting Max only to serve his own self-interest and Tess's. No Max and/or no heir, no chance to go home. Perhaps Nasedo's behavior was not acceptable at all. |
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Posted 02-21-2004 10:26 AM by Algieba
Perhaps this has already been discussed but I haven't seen it. What are we suppose to assume from WDAMYK when Michael tells Jesse that Isabel was his first and that they'd still be around when he, Jesse, was just bones? Is the point that Antarians have a much longer lifespan? That would seem to be the case since Kivar is still around and still trying to get Isabel/Vilandra to be with him. If Kivar was a young man in 1947 when the royal four escaped from Antar, he would still be in his seventies. Also, was Michael showing an interest in Isabel just because he had the royal seal? And what is the significance of it being in his chest instead of his head? Was that an aberration? Is that why Michael acted so crazy? Or was Michael telling the truth when he told the others after it was all over that that really was the way he was and he wasn't going to apologize for it? That episode puzzled me more than most so I keep wondering if it was just another example of hurry up cause we're probably going to be canceled, cram in as much as you can and don't worry about it making sense type of filming. |
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Posted 02-21-2004 02:18 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Algieba! I missed reading anything from you earlier this week! Good to see you! I liked Who Died and Made You King? very much! The episode made a lot of sense to me, because it explored the idea of what might happen, if someone suddenly got powers to do things they couldn’t do before. Michael lacked experience in leadership and handling power. He made a lot of serious mistakes. - JESSE: Isabel? Isabel? [There is no answer, and he goes over to his desk. We see Michael has been sitting in the dark, waiting.] MICHAEL: You told them who we are? JESSE: [Whirls around to see him] Get the hell out. MICHAEL: You sold us out, didn't you??! JESSE: Get the hell out, now! MICHAEL: Didn't you?! JESSE: No- [Suddenly Michael blasts him and slams him high up against a wall, pinning him there with his powers.] JESSE: That's not mine. MICHAEL: Goodbye, Jesse. ```````````` In the scene, Michael pins Jesse to the wall, using his powers. Michael had wanted to kill Jesse, even before he discovers the bugged briefcase. Michael and Isabel hadn’t been married to each other in their previous lives. They had been engaged, but Isabel fell in love with Kivar. Michael has had a special place in his heart for Isabel, ever since she first became friends with Michael, after he was treated very disrespectfully by a teacher, who refused him food in the lunch room. quote:I don’t think so. Michael doesn’t show any interest in Isabel (royally or romantically speaking) in the rest of the episode or in other episodes. Even though Michael told Jesse that he opposed Isabel's marriage to Jesse, Michael had actually accepted that she was going to marry Jesse, even before Max accepted it. Michael had behaved very reassuringly towards Isabel and her fears, once he knew for certain that Jesse wasn't an alien. Michael’s mention of Isabel and their shared past on Antar seems to be more about Michael’s hurt that Isabel was more worried about Jesse’s disappearance, than she was concerned about Michael’s wishes. quote:Antarians may have a longer life span, but Michael doesn’t know much about Antarians or their lifespans. Michael plans to shorten Jesse’s life immediately. He planned to kill Jesse, until Isabel and the others show up. quote:When the emissary tested Max, the seal was revealed to be “stenciled to Max’s brain”. The emissary didn’t look on Max’s chest. He knew that only the true lineal king would carry the seal in his brain. The delegates were only interested in talking with Max/Zan, the true king of the past on Antar. Michael had the seal on his chest. Everyone could see that Michael now carried the seal. Because Michael carried the seal on his chest, everyone would know that the true lineal king (Max) had died, and that Michael now took his place. Because the seal wasn’t inside Michael’s head, everyone would also know that Michael wasn’t a lineal ruler. Michael had all the powers of a true king, but he lacked the blood line. He couldn’t carry the seal within his head. Since the seal was visible on Michael’s chest, a person of lineal blood could take the seal away from Michael, as Max did, when he took back the Seal of Antar. quote:I don’t think it was an aberration for the seal to be on Michael’s chest. I think that was the way the seal was designed to function. With the Seal of Antar, Michael gained powers he had never had before. He was aware that now he was in charge. Michael’s only models of people in power as he had grown up were of people who had abused their power. Michael’s foster dad, a person with power over him, had behaved dictatorially and abusively towards Michael. The school teacher at lunch had behaved dictatorially and abusively towards Michael, as well. Deep down, Michael must have seethed all those years he had so little control of his own powers and so little control over events in his life. With the arrival on the seal, Michael’s wish to have people do what he wanted for once came to fore. He wanted and expected everyone to do as he said, just as he had had to do in his life. Michael lacked a good role model for handling power as he grew up. He wasn’t a good leader when he gained the powers of the seal. All that power went to his head, even if the seal didn’t! Michael wasn’t able to handle the power of the seal very well for the brief period of time he had it. Michael alienated Maria. He behaved badly towards Jesse, Isabel and Max. He endangered everyone’s life, including his own, by threatening the psychiatrist. Michael didn't take time to think things though. He reacted. He had often complained about Max not taking action. Michael was determined to be a different kind of leader. Michael failed to think of the consequences threatening the psychiartrist would have. Ordinarily, Michael instinctively put his life on the line to protect the people he loved. When he received the Seal of Antar, though, his priorities changed. Michael became power hungry and attempted to be controlling. People didn’t accept him the way he expected them to. Power doesn’t always confer obedience. quote:Michael had always had ideas about the way he thought things should be. For example, he (and Isabel) wanted to kill Brody. On Antar, as Rath, he may also have had separate ideas about the way things should go. Courtney indicated that Michael/Rath had a following on Antar. However, Michael had evidently not broken away from Max/Zan on Antar. He remained loyal. Max and Isabel’s mother described Michael/Rath as Max/Zan’s second-in-command. Michael was very protective of Max and Isabel. When Liz and Maria confronted the three of them in the alley by blocking their exit, it was Michael who stepped forward. ````` MARIA: Yeah. He, uh, threatened my life and then shoved me out of a moving vehicle and just left me in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night. MARIA: After you suggested it'd be better off if I was dead, and Jesse, and everybody else who knows about your little "secret"..! MICHAEL: It was a suggestion. [Everyone gives Michael skewed looks, and he gets defensive.] .....Why am I always apologizing to you guys about who I am? MICHAEL: Yes, it was me. Max was dead, I was king. I did what I had to do. MARIA: Fine. MICHAEL: I'm not sorry about it, either. MICHAEL: No, I'm not sorry. [Michael walks off towards the door.] [Michael slams the door hard on his way out, breaking the glass. Everyone looks shocked and concerned. Maria can only shake her head.] `````` In the scene, Michael says he’s not sorry for the way he behaved when he had the seal. However, Michael’s actions speak otherwise. He is unwilling to admit he was wrong, but he knows what he did was unacceptable. He slams the door, breaking the glass. Again, Michael has problems controlling his emotions. Later in the episode, he apologizes to Maria. Michael had wanted to be accepted for who he was (mistakes and all). Michael’s subsequent apology shows he is also willing to accept responsibility for his behavior and to make amends with Maria. -- [ 02-21-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 02-21-2004 03:27 PM by Algieba
Wow, Citrus. Great explanation of that episode. I don't think I can disagree with anything you said. The whole episode makes so much more sense with that explanation. I have always felt so puzzled when I watched it, trying to think what Michael's motivations were. I especially like the idea that the V symbol was on his chest where others could see it and also so Max could take it back. I like the way that Max so often just instinctively knew what he had to do. No one taught him he could retrieve his power by putting his hand on the seal. He just knew it. I think Max has the qualities of a great leader. He makes mistakes but he also made some very astute decisions that saved their lives. I've been thinking again about Lonnie's influence on him in Max in the City. That little talk she gave him before he gave his decision about Kivar's deal was a perceptive analysis of Max's personality. She played on his feelings of responsibility for Antar's people, his own people actually. Too bad Lonnie had to be so evil. She would have made a strong ally. |
Posted 02-22-2004 11:34 AM by Reggie
quote: As I see it, Michael was referring to the fact that he and Isabel (as Rath and Villandra) were engaged. Kinda pointless, since Jesse wasn't a member of the I Know An Alien Club. <shrug> Plus some bravado, I suspect; although the idea of Twilonians having longer life spans isn't unreasonable. Their medicine is probably more advanced than ours, after all. As for Michael's interest in Isabel, remember that the first and principal duty of any sovereign is to produce an heir. It's entirely possible that this royal duty was behind his interest in Isabel. Remember, they'd grown up almost as brother and sister, so she wasn't romanticly interesting in S1. Being royalty, though, it makes sense. I believe that it's just another aspect of Michael becoming "king". As such, it's rational and not something to apologise for... unless you count that he's really being a jerk about everything. I totally agree that his denials afterward are mostly bravado, and that he really did regret what happened. |
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Posted 02-29-2004 05:38 AM by shapeshifter
Great explanations, as usual, C&V! I especially enjoyed this one: quote: I do, however, disagree with this one: quote:The title of the ep, "Who Died And Made You King?" (a great title, btw) and these lines:
Liz: What if the people that engineered and sent you here built in a backup plan. You know, in case anything happened to you, Michael was encoded to step up as leader. Max: But nothing happened to me. I'm fine. Maria: No... you died. ................................ And Reggie, I like your alternate explanations too! [ 02-29-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 02-29-2004 11:30 AM by Citrus and Vine
shapeshifter! I love the title Who Died and Made You King? too! I agree with you that Michael got the seal because Max died healing Clayton. Max's body died then. However, Max's essence transferred into Clayton's body. His essence couldn't carry the Seal of Antar into Clayton's body, because Clayton was human. Max's identity and information about his past could (and did) transfer into Clayton's body. Max's essence became hellishly trapped inside Clayton's body, with Clayton in control of the body for most of the time. Max also died again when Clayton forced Liz out of the window. ```````````````````` After Max/Zan died on Antar, the Seal of Antar went to Max's new body that was sent to Earth. The Seal could go to different bodies. After Max died, the Seal passed on to Michael. Possibly the Seal was to have gone to Isabel first. However, Isabel was gravely injured, unconcious, and near death, shortly after Max died. So maybe the Seal bypassed Isabel for that reason. Max could carry the seal in his brain, because he was a lineal, royal king. Michael only had the seal on his chest, making it possible for a lineal royal with Antarian blood to take back the seal, as Max did. [ 02-29-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 03-01-2004 10:13 AM by shapeshifter
I just watched Summer of '47 for the first time in a long time--on the SciFi Channel--and noticed some thing. The scene in bold below was supposed to be at the end of the next, not the beginning, because the way it airs, Hal has just taken the beer from Michael, and then suddenly, it's empty and he's asking for another:
(Back to present day. Michael and Hal are off to the side of a road. Michael goes back to the Jetta and changes one of the beverages in the back seat into a bottle of beer) HAL: You can run fast, but time always has a way of catching up. MICHAEL: My friend had one in her car. She's a little bit of a drinker. HAL: That firecracker from the diner? MICHAEL: Yeah. HAL: Are you two going steady? MICHAEL: No. It's nothing. I mean, well, I mean...whatever there was, it's over. HAL: Not from where I was sitting. You know, I'd...um, I'd never been in love before, but...but on that night beneath the stars and with that woman...and with all that we knew...I should have kissed her then. MICHAEL: Why? What happened to Betty? HAL: Got another beer? (Back to 1947. Richie is at the bar drinking his problems away. Hal walks up to him) |
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Posted 03-03-2004 09:59 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hey, shapeshifter! Cool you caught Summer of '47 on the Scifi channel! I love that episode!
[ 03-04-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 03-14-2004 10:55 AM by Reggie
quote: Hey, wait a minute... Note that if you don't like the DVD version of S1, you should tape it off the air and (in a year or two) you will be able to make your own DVD, with the right music etc. |
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Posted 03-14-2004 02:17 PM by shapeshifter
Hey Reg, The link to the SciFi schedule for Roswell is here. Note that the sequence is dd/month/yr. A lot of folks (me included) have been confused by this and thought the year was a day. So the last airing was March first, and the next is April 12th. And Majandra will be starring in a made-for-the-tube movie tomorrow evening on the family channel, which is airing opposite a new episode of charmed, but then re-airing the next day, and another. More details are posted on the Rosblog. |
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Posted 03-16-2004 04:19 PM by Algieba
Hi, shapeshifter. Thanks for the heads up on Majandra's tv appearance. I missed Sunday night and Monday night so now I'll try for Wednesday night. |
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Posted 03-22-2004 10:47 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hi everyone! eurekamazeltov posted a question on the imdb.com Roswell message board. She asks, "Why does Maria sometimes calls Liz by the moniker 'Petunia'?" Does the name come from a cartoon character or what?". Does anyone know anything more about the name "Petunia"? I've only heard it used as a nickname. |
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Posted 03-23-2004 09:43 AM by Reggie
Driveby! It's probably just that: a pet name. There was a (children's?) song with the line, "I'm just a petunia in an onion patch...". Since the wonderful Liz is a humble waitress in her parents' beanery, it does kind of fit. Not gone, just away... |
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Posted 03-26-2004 12:36 AM by Citrus and Vine
Thanks, Reggie! |
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Posted 03-26-2004 05:02 PM by Algieba
It is a children's song and it goes like this: I'm a lonely little petunia in an onion patch, It's got a catchy tune and little children like it. Maybe Maria calls Liz Petunia when she's sad. Liz is pouting on New Year's Eve when she has to go to the old folks celebration at the Crashdown. She kind of looks like a little kid, begging Dad to let her go out and play. |
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Posted 03-28-2004 03:55 PM by Citrus and Vine
Thank you Algieba! I posted your answer and Reggie's on the other board. Your explanations fit! Maria also called Liz "pumpkin", when Liz was recovering in her dorm after drinking and seeing Max. I liked the affectionate use of different names in the show. |
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Posted 03-30-2004 10:58 AM by Reggie
Now, in true RBI fashon, we must consider whether Liz is really a plant of some sort.
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Posted 04-01-2004 08:50 PM by Algieba
Has there been any speculation about Liz's grandmother possibly having some connection to aliens? Maybe it's a stretch but I was wondering why she made Liz promise to follow her heart after she got a look at Max. Did she recognize something about him? Did she know something? Such as....did Max look like someone she had known or known about? I'm wondering about who the genetic donors for Max, Isabel and Tess were. Liz, a plant? That does conjure up quite a picture. |
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Posted 04-01-2004 09:20 PM by shapeshifter
Algieba, many posts have been made on that topic, so, following the axiom (mine) that if a lot of different folks post the same idea about Roswell, than it must have merit, I would have to say that yes, Grandma Claudia has an alien connection. There are also some good fanfics that take off on that premise. Hmmm...Liz as a plant? Meaning vegetable or FBI? |
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Posted 04-03-2004 03:31 PM by Reggie
I doubt the FBI; they would have had to use an adult (like Topulski). But she could have been manouvered by the aliens (Tic-tac) for some purpose. Or maybe she's part green onion, like Max. |
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Posted 04-03-2004 07:06 PM by Algieba
Does anyone know why Max, Michael and Isabel didn't remember anything about coming out of the pods as children? It seems strange that they remembered things happening shortly after that but remember nothing about the pod chamber until Tess shows up. Max has memories of he and Isabel walking on the road when the Evans' headlights pick them up. Michael remembers running away by himself in that slime outfit they were wearing when they came out of the pods. Those things happened soon after they came out of the pod chamber. It seems very odd to me that they don't remember what happened to them right before that, namely struggling out of the pods, seeing one of them not hatched yet, Michael using his hand to open the pod chamber, Isabel trying to get Max to leave the unhatched alien behind, Max looking sad, not knowing what to do but finally taking Isabel's hand and leaving with her. Why were those memories wiped out yet they remember what happened immediately after? I don't think it was supposed to be a mindwarp because the pods are there as evidence. The Dupes had pods too and said they remembered coming out of them. Are we suppose to believe that trauma caused the memory loss? If so, why weren't the Dupes similarly traumatized being born in an underground sewer? Did their protector stay with them and that was the difference? I know they were like newborns, not able to talk, but it makes no sense to forget something so dramatic when the Dupes seem to remember what happened to them (and the Dupes are suppose to be the defectives). |
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Posted 04-03-2004 11:59 PM by Citrus and Vine
I don’t know if I can answer what you want, but here goes.
Michael, Isabel, and Max left their pods and the area from which they had emerged. The three remembered they had been in pods, but they didn’t remember Tess, or leaving the podchamber, or the location of the podchamber. Thinking back to when I was 16 to what I remembered about what happened when I was six, I would say that I mostly remembered close friends, family, and some teachers. By age six, I had six years experience of being in the world. Even so, at age sixteen, I didn’t recall someone I had met once when I was six. Max, Michael, and Isabel didn’t meet Tess in the podchamber. They saw her and that was all. They didn’t interact with her. They didn’t remain in the podchamber. They had no earlier experiences to integrate their experience in the podchamber. Being there was just one of a series of entirely new experiences for them that day. They remembered things that later had meaning to them, such as meeting each other in the desert, but 10 years later, they had forgotten the details of things that happened before that, with the exception of knowing that they had been in pods. Perhaps the trauma of leaving Tess behind resulted in their suppressing the memory of the event. (Max was upset to leave Tess.) Or perhaps they were just too young and too newly born to consciously remember something they couldn't change or help at the time. Once they left the podchamber, they had pod material still adhering to them to remind them that they had been in pods. They had nothing left to remind them of Tess or the podchamber. After leaving the chamber, they had a whole new world to experience. Amid all their new experiences, they forgot Tess and the podchamber. They remembered the pods, because they had experienced the pods, and had some reminders of the pods on their bodies, after they left the chamber. None of three recognized or remembered Tess when she came to Roswell. Tess no longer looked like she had in the pod. Her eyes had been closed then, and she had been 10 years younger. Max, Michael, and Isabel didn’t know the location of the podchamber, either. Humans usually don’t remember the people and the place they first see at birth. Max, Michael, and Isabel weren't humans. We can only guess how things were for them, when they were born. We don't know how conscious memory developed for them. We only know that Max didn't remember Tess, until after she took him to the rock formation. The three of them didn’t remember Tess and didn’t remember the podchamber, especially since the podchamber was far from where they grew up. They all three knew they had emerged from pods. They had each physically experienced emerging from a pod. They had only visually seen Tess briefly. Evidently, seeing her hadn't imprinted on their conscious memory amid all the other new experiences they had that day. They also didn't recall Michael opening the podchamber using a silver handprint. Some things we remember, because people, environment, and events reinforce our memories and keep memories fresh. Some things we forget. Some things we remember, because something sparks our memories. Going to the rock formation with Tess and thinking about where he had seen her before sparked Max’s memories of the podchamber, Tess in her pod, and the three of them leaving Tess and the podchamber 10 years earlier. IMAGE: www.cartogra.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=125a464c-78de-4b64-3375-6a01656965a3&size= IMAGE: www.cartogra.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=401018bb-1c63-2cf2-6dd9-320925ee4571&size= IMAGE: www.cartogra.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=3376471b-20b6-1e63-32d6-4ca55660608b&size= IMAGE: www.cartogra.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=7224688a-48cd-5774-5a13-6ebb3f5122f8&size= IMAGE: www.cartogra.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=20647d34-10b8-64e2-3bd5-1d1b18c329bd&size= Thanks go to LongTimeFan for the screencaps [ 04-04-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 04-14-2004 11:19 PM by shapeshifter
I just watched most of the 1997 Bruce Willis movie, The Fifth Element, with Milla Jovovich playing Leeloo, who is the "Fifth Element" necessary to save the world from evil. (The other four elements are, of course, wind, water, earth & fire.) On the old Liz Myth threads, as early as May 2000 and Novemeber 2000, Starbox and others were comparing Liz to "the fifth element." Does anyone here now know if this was at least in part in reference to the Bruce Willis movie? I also recall a discussion of the earth/wind/fire/water concept in relation to the fifth element, but cannot find the thread just now. [ 04-14-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 04-15-2004 06:36 PM by The Real Momo
shapeshifter: I believe that Liz has been equated with Leelo from The Fifth Element before. The Fifth Element in the movie refers to "love". The comparison would be Max with Korban and Liz to Leelo. The premise would be: Without Max's love, Liz would not be able to fulfill her role as "the fifth element," "love," and save the universe from evil. Without "love," all is lost. Liz's character takes on the goddess role, representing "love". This perhaps might tie into the "change" in destiny to prevent Max from making Zan's mistakes, to "repeating history." I still can't help thinking this includes Tess. While Tess clearly seems to think Zan loved her as past life Ava, we get the opposite reaction from dupe Ava who feels her "Zan" was looking for someone else -- "the fifth element?" Was Max really upset at leaving Tess behind in the pod chamber? Or was this event meant to tell us something else about Tess? Or Max even? Perhaps Max instinctively, but intentionally left Tess behind. Perhaps this was one way of telling us that while, yes, okay, they had sex, Max/Zan was never in love with Tess/Ava. Or perhaps, Max as Zan, never trusted Tess as Ava for some unknown reason. It would be nice to know or sure. But we also have to remember that it was not only Max who left Tess behind ... it was also Isabel and Michael. The separation is complete. To me, there is symbolic reasoning behind it rather than Max possibly being "upset". I think there is some greater connection or should I say, disconnection. The key remains sealed in the Zan/Ava Antarian marriage. Citrus: Love your explanation about memory and how it fits into the idea of what Max, Michael and Isabel remember. [ 04-15-2004: Message edited The Real Momo ] |
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Posted 04-16-2004 09:59 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
The Real Momo- I love reading your posts and ITA with you regarding the whole Max/Zan and Tess/Ava relationship. Thanks shapeshifter for the links to the Liz Myth threads. I also loved that Liz was referred to as being "The Fifth Element. |
Posted 04-20-2004 01:11 PM by Reggie
quote: My thought has been that Tess was his "young bride", as opposed to his first wife. I believe that Max's beloved first wife was killed (by K' var, in an assesenation attempt?). As Max's second wife, she could have been much younger, and more star-struck than in romantic love with her King. He, in turn, would see her as a dynastic necessity rather than an equal; and feel great affection for her (of course) rather than the Love he felt for his first wife. Of course, if there is "artificial reincarnation", then the natural sort is possible too. Now, I wonder what happened to the soul of Max's beloved? |
Posted 04-20-2004 06:05 PM by The Real Momo
quote: Certainly the dictionary definition leaves Tess/Ava's station in question. Bride is defined as "a newly married woman or a woman about to be married." As a woman "about to be married", Tess/Ava could very easily be described as a "young bride" without having gone through the marriage ceremony. However ... there is a problem in assuming Tess/Ava as "a woman about to be married." It comes from Larek in the body of Brody who tells Max (in MITC) "I was there at your wedding." So Max was definitely married ... but to whom? I don't recall Brody specifically identifying Tess as Zan's "wife" at this point. The inference is there and we are led to believe it is Tess but ... do we believe it? Should we believe it? As I recall, Tess is the only person we specifically refers to herself as "wife". Does anybody recall anyone besides Tess using the word "wife?" |
Posted 04-21-2004 12:14 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/826a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/822a87e0.jpg I think the message from their mom would have said that she sent her son’s betrothed, if she were implying that no marriage had occurred. She knew the term and used it. She only applied the term “betrothed” to her daughter’s relationship, not her son’s. Max's mother said your young bride, implying that he had married, as opposed to saying your bride-to-be or your intended bride or your betrothed. `````````` The translation successfully used to operate the Granilith begins with the words, “YOU ARE THE ROYAL FOUR. ZAN, THE KING. AVA, HIS QUEEN.” IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/babyits/babyitsyou187.jpg If Zan and Ava had not been married, Ava might have been a queen, but not his queen. Being Zan’s queen means that they were married, not merely about to be married or engaged or betrothed. ````````````````` Larek at the Summit told Max that he was at Max’s coronation and wedding. Later, Brody accessed Larek’s memories and remembered that Larek introduced Max and Tess in their former lives. He remembered that Max/Zan loved her. Brody/Larek was insistent. When Max healed Brody, he had flashes of himself and Tess kissing. Later, Max went to Tess in her room at night, and tenderly told her that he remembered her. I think we can believe Larek, because he said that he was friends with Zan. Larek proved his friendship later, by giving Max and the others accurate information about the Gandarium, so they could save themselves. ____________________________________________________________ |
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Posted 04-21-2004 06:03 PM by The Real Momo
Thanks, Citrus, for the refresher. I always had the impression that the Zan/Ava marriage was real, but when the subject was brought up, couldn't remember if a direct reference to Tess/Ava as "wife", just "young bride". A reference to Ava as queen would definitely back the idea that Ava was married to Max. |
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Posted 04-21-2004 10:51 PM by shapeshifter
In Harvest, Greer says, "You must be the once and future king. And his bride," to which Tess boldly--if not proudly--replies, "That's right." [ 04-23-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
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Posted 04-23-2004 02:51 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
The Real Momo & shapeshifter: Could one of you please tell me which episode Max actually referred to or called Tess his "wife"? My memory fails me and I can't remember. In Departure when Tess was yelling at Max "about not feeling that way about her because she was his wife", did Max ever tell Tess that she was his "wife", before or after they had sex? If some people actually consider Tess to be Max's "wife" on Earth, then that makes Max a bigamist for marrying Liz. I don't know if Tess is dead or not since there was no body found. She might come back one day and want to reclaim her "husband". |
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Posted 04-23-2004 11:27 PM by shapeshifter
Sonia, good question. I did a search of the scripts and only found this line from Off The Menu: quote:But it is spoken in the context of trying to negotiate with a crazed hostage taker. It is followed shortly by these lines: quote:Interesting is this quote from Ask Not in which Maria draws a comparison between Max & JFK in which Liz is analagous to JFK's wife: quote: |